How Your Immune System Works & How to Improve It | Dr. Max Krummel

A famous immunologist in the 1970s A famous immunologist in the 1970s drew this parallel in wartime and said drew this parallel in wartime and said drew this parallel in wartime and said in World War II submarines had two sets in World War II submarines had two sets in World War II submarines had two sets of books. One of them was a book that of books. One of them was a book that of books. One of them was a book that gave them the sound profile of all the gave them the sound profile of all the gave them the sound profile of all the US submarines. And so they could listen US submarines. And so they could listen US submarines. And so they could listen to the whir of the engines and if they to the whir of the engines and if they to the whir of the engines and if they heard a whir of the engine that had the heard a whir of the engine that had the heard a whir of the engine that had the certain cycle of a General you know, certain cycle of a General you know, certain cycle of a General you know, Motors engine, they wouldn't fire. So Motors engine, they wouldn't fire. So Motors engine, they wouldn't fire. So that's the sort of like self, I know that's the sort of like self, I know that's the sort of like self, I know what self is. And then they had another what self is. And then they had another what self is. And then they had another book that was the engine sounds of the book that was the engine sounds of the book that was the engine sounds of the known diesel engines of whatever engines known diesel engines of whatever engines known diesel engines of whatever engines of the German submarines. And if they of the German submarines. And if they of the German submarines. And if they heard that then they absolutely would heard that then they absolutely would heard that then they absolutely would fire. fire. fire. And that's a self versus non-self And that's a self versus non-self And that's a self versus non-self discrimination problem just like the discrimination problem just like the discrimination problem just like the immune system has to do. immune system has to do. immune system has to do. But what I bring you with it aging is But what I bring you with it aging is But what I bring you with it aging is this concept that as you get weirder and this concept that as you get weirder and this concept that as you get weirder and different and your your body is getting different and your your body is getting different and your your body is getting like more complex like more complex like more complex then as those books, you know, start to then as those books, you know, start to then as those books, you know, start to have every possible possibly every have every possible possibly every have every possible possibly every possible permutation of every possible permutation of every possible permutation of every biomolecule could could could be made by biomolecule could could could be made by biomolecule could could could be made by your body at that point. And then a your body at that point. And then a your body at that point. And then a virus doesn't necessarily have anything virus doesn't necessarily have anything virus doesn't necessarily have anything unique about it. unique about it. unique about it. >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science [music] where we discuss science [music] where we discuss science [music] and science-based tools for everyday and science-based tools for everyday and science-based tools for everyday life. life. life. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at of neurobiology and ophthalmology at of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Max Krummel, a professor today is Dr. Max Krummel, a professor today is Dr. Max Krummel, a professor and leading expert in immunology and and leading expert in immunology and and leading expert in immunology and cancer biology at the University of cancer biology at the University of cancer biology at the University of California, San Francisco. California, San Francisco. California, San Francisco. Today we discuss your immune system, how Today we discuss your immune system, how Today we discuss your immune system, how it works, what it needs to function at it works, what it needs to function at it works, what it needs to function at its best, and how things like aging, its best, and how things like aging, its best, and how things like aging, vaccines, sleep, and even your thoughts vaccines, sleep, and even your thoughts vaccines, sleep, and even your thoughts and emotions shape immune function. For and emotions shape immune function. For and emotions shape immune function. For instance, most everybody knows that instance, most everybody knows that instance, most everybody knows that being sleep deprived makes you more being sleep deprived makes you more being sleep deprived makes you more prone to getting sick. But why? Meaning prone to getting sick. But why? Meaning prone to getting sick. But why? Meaning mechanistically why? Well, it turns out mechanistically why? Well, it turns out mechanistically why? Well, it turns out there's a specific set of cells that there's a specific set of cells that there's a specific set of cells that need to migrate in a particular way need to migrate in a particular way need to migrate in a particular way during sleep and we talk about how you during sleep and we talk about how you during sleep and we talk about how you can reinforce that process in ways other can reinforce that process in ways other can reinforce that process in ways other than sleep. We also discuss incredible than sleep. We also discuss incredible than sleep. We also discuss incredible findings that certain brain states and findings that certain brain states and findings that certain brain states and memories can be associated with an memories can be associated with an memories can be associated with an immune system status you had when those immune system status you had when those immune system status you had when those memories formed and evidence that just memories formed and evidence that just memories formed and evidence that just recalling those memories, thinking about recalling those memories, thinking about recalling those memories, thinking about where you were, what you were feeling at where you were, what you were feeling at where you were, what you were feeling at those times when the memories formed, those times when the memories formed, those times when the memories formed, can activate your immune system in the can activate your immune system in the can activate your immune system in the same way, which is remarkable. same way, which is remarkable. same way, which is remarkable. We also have a very candid discussion We also have a very candid discussion We also have a very candid discussion about vaccines and medications more about vaccines and medications more about vaccines and medications more broadly. You'll notice that Dr. Cromer broadly. You'll notice that Dr. Cromer broadly. You'll notice that Dr. Cromer is incredibly balanced throughout is incredibly balanced throughout is incredibly balanced throughout today's conversation, and yet he's also today's conversation, and yet he's also today's conversation, and yet he's also willing to state his views very clearly. willing to state his views very clearly. willing to state his views very clearly. So, it provides a very rich discussion So, it provides a very rich discussion So, it provides a very rich discussion about vaccines and all the rest. Indeed, about vaccines and all the rest. Indeed, about vaccines and all the rest. Indeed, thanks to Max's incredible breadth of thanks to Max's incredible breadth of thanks to Max's incredible breadth of understanding of immunology and much understanding of immunology and much understanding of immunology and much more, and his ability to break down more, and his ability to break down more, and his ability to break down complex topics and make them accessible, complex topics and make them accessible, complex topics and make them accessible, plus his genuine care for public plus his genuine care for public plus his genuine care for public education and science, today's is a education and science, today's is a education and science, today's is a truly special and important episode to truly special and important episode to truly special and important episode to educate and inform you in actionable educate and inform you in actionable educate and inform you in actionable ways. I should also mention that Dr. ways. I should also mention that Dr. ways. I should also mention that Dr. Cromer has an incredible zero-cost Cromer has an incredible zero-cost Cromer has an incredible zero-cost Substack. It's called The Immune Beyond. Substack. It's called The Immune Beyond. Substack. It's called The Immune Beyond. You can access it by going to the You can access it by going to the You can access it by going to the immunebeyond all one word {dot} substack immunebeyond all one word {dot} substack immunebeyond all one word {dot} substack {dot} com, and there he teaches about {dot} com, and there he teaches about {dot} com, and there he teaches about science and more. Again, it's awesome, science and more. Again, it's awesome, science and more. Again, it's awesome, it's free, so definitely check it out. it's free, so definitely check it out. it's free, so definitely check it out. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my that this podcast is separate from my that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and It is, however, part of my desire and It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer effort to bring zero-cost to consumer effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and information about science and information about science and science-related tools to the general science-related tools to the general science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, public. In keeping with that theme, public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. today's episode does include sponsors. today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Max And now for my discussion with Dr. Max And now for my discussion with Dr. Max Cromer. Cromer. Cromer. Dr. Max Cromer, welcome. Dr. Max Cromer, welcome. Dr. Max Cromer, welcome. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Most everybody, including me, has heard >> Most everybody, including me, has heard >> Most everybody, including me, has heard of this thing we call the immune system, of this thing we call the immune system, of this thing we call the immune system, and most people just think, "Okay, this and most people just think, "Okay, this and most people just think, "Okay, this is the thing that when I'm rested keeps is the thing that when I'm rested keeps is the thing that when I'm rested keeps me from getting sick, me from getting sick, me from getting sick, and when I'm not as well rested, I tend and when I'm not as well rested, I tend and when I'm not as well rested, I tend to get more sick, and there are these to get more sick, and there are these to get more sick, and there are these airborne things, and we can get sick, airborne things, and we can get sick, airborne things, and we can get sick, and there's like funguses and viruses and there's like funguses and viruses and there's like funguses and viruses and and I think that's probably what and and I think that's probably what and and I think that's probably what most people understand, and they most people understand, and they most people understand, and they probably also understand that there are probably also understand that there are probably also understand that there are like cells and T cells and B cells, but like cells and T cells and B cells, but like cells and T cells and B cells, but if we want to think about a little bit if we want to think about a little bit if we want to think about a little bit of the history of our understanding of of the history of our understanding of of the history of our understanding of the immune system and what we understand the immune system and what we understand the immune system and what we understand now, maybe you could orient us because now, maybe you could orient us because now, maybe you could orient us because in reading your work prior to this in reading your work prior to this in reading your work prior to this discussion, I'm realizing that discussion, I'm realizing that discussion, I'm realizing that this is a very recent field, and also this is a very recent field, and also this is a very recent field, and also there's still a lot that we do not there's still a lot that we do not there's still a lot that we do not understand. understand. understand. >> When I started immunology, sort of 30 >> When I started immunology, sort of 30 >> When I started immunology, sort of 30 years ago, years ago, years ago, I was rotating in labs at Berkeley, I was rotating in labs at Berkeley, I was rotating in labs at Berkeley, where I think you were at Berkeley as where I think you were at Berkeley as where I think you were at Berkeley as well. well. well. And one of the transcription factor And one of the transcription factor And one of the transcription factor biologists, you know, mentor said, "You biologists, you know, mentor said, "You biologists, you know, mentor said, "You know, why do you want to work in know, why do you want to work in know, why do you want to work in immunology? It's not really a field." immunology? It's not really a field." immunology? It's not really a field." And so at the time it was kind of true, And so at the time it was kind of true, And so at the time it was kind of true, you know, everything was about DNAs, you know, everything was about DNAs, you know, everything was about DNAs, cloning. We still, you know, it's cloning. We still, you know, it's cloning. We still, you know, it's obviously still a lot about molecular obviously still a lot about molecular obviously still a lot about molecular biology what we do. biology what we do. biology what we do. But you know, at the time it was pretty But you know, at the time it was pretty But you know, at the time it was pretty simple. We thought of the immune system simple. We thought of the immune system simple. We thought of the immune system as something that as something that as something that on the one hand it had to come into play on the one hand it had to come into play on the one hand it had to come into play when you saw a virus or something when you saw a virus or something when you saw a virus or something foreign. foreign. foreign. Um and otherwise it generally had to be Um and otherwise it generally had to be Um and otherwise it generally had to be quiescent and kind of leave you alone. I quiescent and kind of leave you alone. I quiescent and kind of leave you alone. I think cancer immunotherapy changed that think cancer immunotherapy changed that think cancer immunotherapy changed that a lot. That that gave us the idea that a lot. That that gave us the idea that a lot. That that gave us the idea that you could tune its reactivity, so that you could tune its reactivity, so that you could tune its reactivity, so that you could get to the point where if you you could get to the point where if you you could get to the point where if you gave an immunotherapy, what it was gave an immunotherapy, what it was gave an immunotherapy, what it was actually doing was raising the threshold actually doing was raising the threshold actually doing was raising the threshold if when a T cell would activate, if when a T cell would activate, if when a T cell would activate, and allowing T cells that might be just and allowing T cells that might be just and allowing T cells that might be just letting the tumor get by, letting the tumor get by, letting the tumor get by, get they they'd be able to go and go get they they'd be able to go and go get they they'd be able to go and go after that tumor and and and kill it. after that tumor and and and kill it. after that tumor and and and kill it. I think that changed the spectrum to a I think that changed the spectrum to a I think that changed the spectrum to a certain degree where we suddenly certain degree where we suddenly certain degree where we suddenly thought, "Okay, this isn't just a just thought, "Okay, this isn't just a just thought, "Okay, this isn't just a just a, you know, foreign versus self thing, a, you know, foreign versus self thing, a, you know, foreign versus self thing, because it's a tumor is kind of not because it's a tumor is kind of not because it's a tumor is kind of not exactly self, but it's it's actually exactly self, but it's it's actually exactly self, but it's it's actually it's also not foreign. It was once you. it's also not foreign. It was once you. it's also not foreign. It was once you. It's a cell that's kind of evolved." It's a cell that's kind of evolved." It's a cell that's kind of evolved." So I think tumor immunology really So I think tumor immunology really So I think tumor immunology really changed our perspective on that, you changed our perspective on that, you changed our perspective on that, you know, to the point where we now think of know, to the point where we now think of know, to the point where we now think of it as a as a tunable system. it as a as a tunable system. it as a as a tunable system. But then I think, you know, a lot has But then I think, you know, a lot has But then I think, you know, a lot has happened in the last 20 years. There's happened in the last 20 years. There's happened in the last 20 years. There's been a lot of excitement about cancer been a lot of excitement about cancer been a lot of excitement about cancer immunotherapy because well, we're we're immunotherapy because well, we're we're immunotherapy because well, we're we're curing people with cancer, curing people with cancer, curing people with cancer, which really wasn't done before. And which really wasn't done before. And which really wasn't done before. And you're now in the space where um the you're now in the space where um the you're now in the space where um the immune system is showing all these other immune system is showing all these other immune system is showing all these other roles. I mean, you know it in the in the roles. I mean, you know it in the in the roles. I mean, you know it in the in the nervous system, the brain, there's nervous system, the brain, there's nervous system, the brain, there's microglia that do various functions, microglia that do various functions, microglia that do various functions, cleaning up, etc. cleaning up, etc. cleaning up, etc. But it's in your gut. It's allowing But it's in your gut. It's allowing But it's in your gut. It's allowing microbes to live in you, microbes to live in you, microbes to live in you, but it's titrating them. It's keeping but it's titrating them. It's keeping but it's titrating them. It's keeping them there in the kind of like the right them there in the kind of like the right them there in the kind of like the right quantity. So, it's kind of guarding quantity. So, it's kind of guarding quantity. So, it's kind of guarding yourself. It's uh you know, it sits in yourself. It's uh you know, it sits in yourself. It's uh you know, it sits in your liver your liver your liver regulating how how much you metabolize. regulating how how much you metabolize. regulating how how much you metabolize. There's a collection of cells there. There's a collection of cells there. There's a collection of cells there. Um it's in your heart. It's you know, Um it's in your heart. It's you know, Um it's in your heart. It's you know, regulating cardiomyocyte function. Uh regulating cardiomyocyte function. Uh regulating cardiomyocyte function. Uh those are the the muscle cells of your those are the the muscle cells of your those are the the muscle cells of your heart. heart. heart. Uh they have to be cleaned up from time Uh they have to be cleaned up from time Uh they have to be cleaned up from time to time. So, there's a set of immune to time. So, there's a set of immune to time. So, there's a set of immune cells that will help get rid of their cells that will help get rid of their cells that will help get rid of their byproducts in the in the in the heart. byproducts in the in the in the heart. byproducts in the in the in the heart. So, it has all these additional So, it has all these additional So, it has all these additional functions that kind of before where functions that kind of before where functions that kind of before where where lost in the in the just you know, where lost in the in the just you know, where lost in the in the just you know, the foreign battle against the foreign. the foreign battle against the foreign. the foreign battle against the foreign. And now we have this kind of perspective And now we have this kind of perspective And now we have this kind of perspective of the system that measures us all the of the system that measures us all the of the system that measures us all the time. It measures everything about us time. It measures everything about us time. It measures everything about us and it exists in some ways. I think it's and it exists in some ways. I think it's and it exists in some ways. I think it's to to help us be who we are. You know, to to help us be who we are. You know, to to help us be who we are. You know, and that's hopefully that's you as a and that's hopefully that's you as a and that's hopefully that's you as a healthy person. You know, in chronic healthy person. You know, in chronic healthy person. You know, in chronic disease unfortunately it can be part of disease unfortunately it can be part of disease unfortunately it can be part of the problem where it becomes part of the the problem where it becomes part of the the problem where it becomes part of the things that's letting the chronic thing things that's letting the chronic thing things that's letting the chronic thing whether it's a tumor whether it's a tumor whether it's a tumor or kidney disease or what have you. It or kidney disease or what have you. It or kidney disease or what have you. It can it can actually help perpetuate it can it can actually help perpetuate it can it can actually help perpetuate it because well, it's you know, in some because well, it's you know, in some because well, it's you know, in some ways it's trying its best. But it's ways it's trying its best. But it's ways it's trying its best. But it's applying the wrong program to the wrong applying the wrong program to the wrong applying the wrong program to the wrong situation. situation. situation. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> So, yeah, it's it's changed a ton. >> So, yeah, it's it's changed a ton. >> So, yeah, it's it's changed a ton. I'll give you another little funny story I'll give you another little funny story I'll give you another little funny story which is that that you know, when I which is that that you know, when I which is that that you know, when I first came to immunology first came to immunology first came to immunology again we had the story like you know, again we had the story like you know, again we had the story like you know, you know, mentor who says you know, this you know, mentor who says you know, this you know, mentor who says you know, this isn't really a field. The year was like isn't really a field. The year was like isn't really a field. The year was like I came into the field in 1989 and that's I came into the field in 1989 and that's I came into the field in 1989 and that's right at the peak of AIDS. And um right at the peak of AIDS. And um right at the peak of AIDS. And um AIDS was like as as a biologist was AIDS was like as as a biologist was AIDS was like as as a biologist was really because you know, the the HIV really because you know, the the HIV really because you know, the the HIV virus infects T cells. So, your body is virus infects T cells. So, your body is virus infects T cells. So, your body is filled with 10 to the 11th or so T filled with 10 to the 11th or so T filled with 10 to the 11th or so T cells. Like a ton of different kinds of cells. Like a ton of different kinds of cells. Like a ton of different kinds of T cells. T cells. T cells. And you had a you had a subset of T And you had a you had a subset of T And you had a you had a subset of T cells that are called CD4 T cells. cells that are called CD4 T cells. cells that are called CD4 T cells. They're kind of a flavor of T cells. They're kind of a flavor of T cells. They're kind of a flavor of T cells. And the virus gets rid of those. So, HIV And the virus gets rid of those. So, HIV And the virus gets rid of those. So, HIV virus will infect the CD4 T cells and virus will infect the CD4 T cells and virus will infect the CD4 T cells and then then you end up with not having then then you end up with not having then then you end up with not having them. them. them. And the the manifestations of AIDS for And the the manifestations of AIDS for And the the manifestations of AIDS for those who weren't around during it, was those who weren't around during it, was those who weren't around during it, was it was just a ton of different it was just a ton of different it was just a ton of different opportunistic infections. So, like soil opportunistic infections. So, like soil opportunistic infections. So, like soil bacteria that you and I, you know, fight bacteria that you and I, you know, fight bacteria that you and I, you know, fight off without even thinking about it, off without even thinking about it, off without even thinking about it, would would would kill people. But, so would would would kill people. But, so would would would kill people. But, so too would you see you saw people with too would you see you saw people with too would you see you saw people with Kaposi's sarcoma. You saw like a Kaposi's sarcoma. You saw like a Kaposi's sarcoma. You saw like a opportunistic like where, you know, opportunistic like where, you know, opportunistic like where, you know, cancers emerging. cancers emerging. cancers emerging. Um, and you just saw all these kind of Um, and you just saw all these kind of Um, and you just saw all these kind of manifestations of where the immune manifestations of where the immune manifestations of where the immune system was important. Demencias system was important. Demencias system was important. Demencias in in people with HIV as well. You know, in in people with HIV as well. You know, in in people with HIV as well. You know, it was a really accent time on how many it was a really accent time on how many it was a really accent time on how many different things the immune system might different things the immune system might different things the immune system might be important for. So, regardless of be important for. So, regardless of be important for. So, regardless of whether, you know, it was a field or whether, you know, it was a field or whether, you know, it was a field or not, it was clearly important. And it not, it was clearly important. And it not, it was clearly important. And it was all these things we didn't know was all these things we didn't know was all these things we didn't know about it that like fueled the about it that like fueled the about it that like fueled the discoveries that have led to where we discoveries that have led to where we discoveries that have led to where we are right now. And some of those, I you are right now. And some of those, I you are right now. And some of those, I you know, I think it's worth pointing out, know, I think it's worth pointing out, know, I think it's worth pointing out, were just these curiosity questions. were just these curiosity questions. were just these curiosity questions. Like, what are these cells? Like, they Like, what are these cells? Like, they Like, what are these cells? Like, they were hard to study it in the beginning, were hard to study it in the beginning, were hard to study it in the beginning, you know, they they don't live, you you know, they they don't live, you you know, they they don't live, you know, it's it's sometimes hard to keep know, it's it's sometimes hard to keep know, it's it's sometimes hard to keep cells out of out of a out of a human cells out of out of a out of a human cells out of out of a out of a human body alive. body alive. body alive. So, you know, there's there's issues So, you know, there's there's issues So, you know, there's there's issues about you know, how do you keep these about you know, how do you keep these about you know, how do you keep these things alive in the very first place? things alive in the very first place? things alive in the very first place? And then and then what what kinds of And then and then what what kinds of And then and then what what kinds of things, you know, trigger them to do things, you know, trigger them to do things, you know, trigger them to do stuff and you got to make reagents to stuff and you got to make reagents to stuff and you got to make reagents to test those, you know, ideas you might test those, you know, ideas you might test those, you know, ideas you might have about what they might do. It was a have about what they might do. It was a have about what they might do. It was a long haul, I think, to get ourselves long haul, I think, to get ourselves long haul, I think, to get ourselves together where we now have a pretty good together where we now have a pretty good together where we now have a pretty good understanding of all the molecules and understanding of all the molecules and understanding of all the molecules and the cell types and the and the behaviors the cell types and the and the behaviors the cell types and the and the behaviors that they can engage in. And it just that they can engage in. And it just that they can engage in. And it just gets more compli you know, more more gets more compli you know, more more gets more compli you know, more more complex and more like rich as we complex and more like rich as we complex and more like rich as we understand that they're basically every understand that they're basically every understand that they're basically every single T cell in your body is like a single T cell in your body is like a single T cell in your body is like a free agent and they're part of a sensory free agent and they're part of a sensory free agent and they're part of a sensory system. Each one can measure system. Each one can measure system. Each one can measure the concentration of a of a the concentration of a of a the concentration of a of a set of biomolecules, proteins. They set of biomolecules, proteins. They set of biomolecules, proteins. They form of peptides. They can measure that. form of peptides. They can measure that. form of peptides. They can measure that. And each one then can say that's out of And each one then can say that's out of And each one then can say that's out of range or that's in range. So, it's like range or that's in range. So, it's like range or that's in range. So, it's like you have like 10 to the 11th little you have like 10 to the 11th little you have like 10 to the 11th little sensors going around you sensors going around you sensors going around you curating you. curating you. curating you. You know, making sure you're the right You know, making sure you're the right You know, making sure you're the right thing. And if they see something that's thing. And if they see something that's thing. And if they see something that's out of range, out of range, out of range, they can do something about it. You they can do something about it. You they can do something about it. You know, like the whole thing is know, like the whole thing is know, like the whole thing is magnificent. magnificent. magnificent. >> It is magnificent. Do you mind if we >> It is magnificent. Do you mind if we >> It is magnificent. Do you mind if we take a developmental take a developmental take a developmental perspective on this for a second and perspective on this for a second and perspective on this for a second and then I have a basic health question. The then I have a basic health question. The then I have a basic health question. The developmental perspective is developmental perspective is developmental perspective is I think most of us either remember or I think most of us either remember or I think most of us either remember or have observed that when have observed that when have observed that when humans are young humans are young humans are young they get sick a lot more. they get sick a lot more. they get sick a lot more. Presumably that's because their immune Presumably that's because their immune Presumably that's because their immune system isn't as well developed, but system isn't as well developed, but system isn't as well developed, but kids tend to get sick and then get over kids tend to get sick and then get over kids tend to get sick and then get over being sick pretty quickly. being sick pretty quickly. being sick pretty quickly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Maybe you could describe what's going on >> Maybe you could describe what's going on >> Maybe you could describe what's going on there. there. there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it also is the case that you know >> And it also is the case that you know >> And it also is the case that you know as we get older as we get older as we get older much older in fact, much older in fact, much older in fact, last quarter of life, let's say, people last quarter of life, let's say, people last quarter of life, let's say, people tend to get sick more. tend to get sick more. tend to get sick more. What's going on in terms of immune What's going on in terms of immune What's going on in terms of immune system function system function system function or is there something more broadly or is there something more broadly or is there something more broadly happening at level of just kind of happening at level of just kind of happening at level of just kind of energetics, mitochondrial function? Very energetics, mitochondrial function? Very energetics, mitochondrial function? Very curious about this. curious about this. curious about this. >> If I can take a step even further back >> If I can take a step even further back >> If I can take a step even further back I'll ask you a question of like who are I'll ask you a question of like who are I'll ask you a question of like who are you? And I don't mean that like in a you? And I don't mean that like in a you? And I don't mean that like in a personal sense, but I can you know talk personal sense, but I can you know talk personal sense, but I can you know talk about that too if you want. But the more about that too if you want. But the more about that too if you want. But the more of the question is like at at some point of the question is like at at some point of the question is like at at some point where does your body end and where does where does your body end and where does where does your body end and where does the world outside start? the world outside start? the world outside start? And one of the things that you know you And one of the things that you know you And one of the things that you know you start to realize if you look in a start to realize if you look in a start to realize if you look in a microscope is that we're covered with microscope is that we're covered with microscope is that we're covered with microbes all of our surface. microbes all of our surface. microbes all of our surface. We're covered with microbes all the way We're covered with microbes all the way We're covered with microbes all the way in our gut. In fact, we can't you know in our gut. In fact, we can't you know in our gut. In fact, we can't you know you can't digest you've probably heard you can't digest you've probably heard you can't digest you've probably heard this before, but you can't digest animal this before, but you can't digest animal this before, but you can't digest animal fats if it weren't for the bugs the fats if it weren't for the bugs the fats if it weren't for the bugs the bacteria in your gut. They make some of bacteria in your gut. They make some of bacteria in your gut. They make some of the key components of of bile acids that the key components of of bile acids that the key components of of bile acids that allow you to digest animal fats. So you allow you to digest animal fats. So you allow you to digest animal fats. So you need this system that's around you. So need this system that's around you. So need this system that's around you. So you aren't just the cell like if you you aren't just the cell like if you you aren't just the cell like if you learn biology you've got the again we're learn biology you've got the again we're learn biology you've got the again we're going to go way back. There's the egg going to go way back. There's the egg going to go way back. There's the egg and the sperm and they fertilize and now and the sperm and they fertilize and now and the sperm and they fertilize and now you got this this this cell that starts you got this this this cell that starts you got this this this cell that starts to divide and gives rise to every other to divide and gives rise to every other to divide and gives rise to every other cell in our body. So you might say that cell in our body. So you might say that cell in our body. So you might say that your body is just that collection of your body is just that collection of your body is just that collection of cells. cells. cells. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> But in fact it's it's it's it's absorbed >> But in fact it's it's it's it's absorbed >> But in fact it's it's it's it's absorbed a lot of viruses and and bacteria from a lot of viruses and and bacteria from a lot of viruses and and bacteria from our environment. our environment. our environment. And you know to go into that really And you know to go into that really And you know to go into that really briefly, that's really important because briefly, that's really important because briefly, that's really important because we only have 20,000 genes in our genome. we only have 20,000 genes in our genome. we only have 20,000 genes in our genome. So there's only so much in a given life So there's only so much in a given life So there's only so much in a given life that we can do with those genes. And so, that we can do with those genes. And so, that we can do with those genes. And so, by absorbing all kinds of other species by absorbing all kinds of other species by absorbing all kinds of other species onto us, we get their genomes. So, like onto us, we get their genomes. So, like onto us, we get their genomes. So, like you said like I was saying the the you said like I was saying the the you said like I was saying the the bacteria in your gut can now help you bacteria in your gut can now help you bacteria in your gut can now help you absorb nutrients that you wouldn't absorb nutrients that you wouldn't absorb nutrients that you wouldn't otherwise. If you eat sushi, you know, otherwise. If you eat sushi, you know, otherwise. If you eat sushi, you know, you've heard this probably, right? You you've heard this probably, right? You you've heard this probably, right? You get you get bacteria in your gut that get you get bacteria in your gut that get you get bacteria in your gut that can help you absorb the the the can help you absorb the the the can help you absorb the the the seaweed. seaweed. seaweed. You know, nutrients from seaweed. You know, nutrients from seaweed. You know, nutrients from seaweed. So, so taking this into your question, So, so taking this into your question, So, so taking this into your question, you know, when you're first born, you've you know, when you're first born, you've you know, when you're first born, you've never really seen anything. And so, two never really seen anything. And so, two never really seen anything. And so, two things are are I I think things are are I I think things are are I I think worth pointing out at the early phase of worth pointing out at the early phase of worth pointing out at the early phase of life. One of them is for the first 6 life. One of them is for the first 6 life. One of them is for the first 6 months or so, your immune system is months or so, your immune system is months or so, your immune system is pretty poor at being trained on things. pretty poor at being trained on things. pretty poor at being trained on things. And it's presumably we presume that for And it's presumably we presume that for And it's presumably we presume that for those first 6 months that's because your those first 6 months that's because your those first 6 months that's because your body's developing so fast that if you body's developing so fast that if you body's developing so fast that if you were to have a super active immune were to have a super active immune were to have a super active immune system, you might actually find yourself system, you might actually find yourself system, you might actually find yourself attacking yourself. You might think that attacking yourself. You might think that attacking yourself. You might think that you're foreign because some genes turn you're foreign because some genes turn you're foreign because some genes turn on during development and then all of a on during development and then all of a on during development and then all of a sudden you're, you know, your your sudden you're, you know, your your sudden you're, you know, your your immune system's like, "Oh, I I see immune system's like, "Oh, I I see immune system's like, "Oh, I I see something different and now I need to something different and now I need to something different and now I need to react." react." react." So, that's well known and that's that's So, that's well known and that's that's So, that's well known and that's that's one of the reasons why some childhood one of the reasons why some childhood one of the reasons why some childhood vaccinations, they're really important vaccinations, they're really important vaccinations, they're really important to protect kids in long over life, why to protect kids in long over life, why to protect kids in long over life, why they aren't given until you're 6 months they aren't given until you're 6 months they aren't given until you're 6 months or or or older. or or or older. or or or older. But, I think to your point, one of the But, I think to your point, one of the But, I think to your point, one of the things that's happening with kids is things that's happening with kids is things that's happening with kids is that they then then as they go into that they then then as they go into that they then then as they go into their like into their 10 and you're their like into their 10 and you're their like into their 10 and you're talking about they get sick a lot, they talking about they get sick a lot, they talking about they get sick a lot, they just haven't seen a lot of these bugs just haven't seen a lot of these bugs just haven't seen a lot of these bugs before. So, they don't have an immune before. So, they don't have an immune before. So, they don't have an immune system that knows what flu is. system that knows what flu is. system that knows what flu is. Cuz they've never seen it the body's Cuz they've never seen it the body's Cuz they've never seen it the body's never that body kids body has never seen never that body kids body has never seen never that body kids body has never seen flu before. So, every single virus and flu before. So, every single virus and flu before. So, every single virus and pathogen that hits it is going to elicit pathogen that hits it is going to elicit pathogen that hits it is going to elicit some of you know, some amount of some of you know, some amount of some of you know, some amount of illness. illness. illness. But, then they have a very strong immune But, then they have a very strong immune But, then they have a very strong immune system it reacts and you know, gets rid system it reacts and you know, gets rid system it reacts and you know, gets rid of that. of that. of that. With the exception of the ones that are With the exception of the ones that are With the exception of the ones that are you know, are those those certain you know, are those those certain you know, are those those certain viruses and bacteria as mumps, measles, viruses and bacteria as mumps, measles, viruses and bacteria as mumps, measles, rubella that are they're lethal and rubella that are they're lethal and rubella that are they're lethal and that's why we immunize as we said. And that's why we immunize as we said. And that's why we immunize as we said. And that's those are things that your immune that's those are things that your immune that's those are things that your immune system if they get too much of those, system if they get too much of those, system if they get too much of those, kids will die. And so, it's better to kids will die. And so, it's better to kids will die. And so, it's better to protect them with a vaccine. protect them with a vaccine. protect them with a vaccine. All right, so that's the front end, All right, so that's the front end, All right, so that's the front end, right? The front end has this initial, right? The front end has this initial, right? The front end has this initial, you know, immunosuppression, then just you know, immunosuppression, then just you know, immunosuppression, then just exposure to all these things that are in exposure to all these things that are in exposure to all these things that are in our environment and you and I take on as our environment and you and I take on as our environment and you and I take on as part of our genomes, but we have to get part of our genomes, but we have to get part of our genomes, but we have to get a we have to reach a detente with some a we have to reach a detente with some a we have to reach a detente with some of them. You know, we have to get to the of them. You know, we have to get to the of them. You know, we have to get to the point where the immune system can kind point where the immune system can kind point where the immune system can kind of like fire back when they show up if of like fire back when they show up if of like fire back when they show up if they're bad and and and allow them to they're bad and and and allow them to they're bad and and and allow them to live in us if they're good with us. And live in us if they're good with us. And live in us if they're good with us. And so I think that's what's happening a lot so I think that's what's happening a lot so I think that's what's happening a lot in those first years of life and you in those first years of life and you in those first years of life and you know, you can see that both in the form know, you can see that both in the form know, you can see that both in the form of you know, kid getting sick a lot, but of you know, kid getting sick a lot, but of you know, kid getting sick a lot, but you'll also see that their guts develop you'll also see that their guts develop you'll also see that their guts develop way diverse microbiome. You know, they way diverse microbiome. You know, they way diverse microbiome. You know, they they allow a whole bunch of things that they allow a whole bunch of things that they allow a whole bunch of things that come in from the outside and are come in from the outside and are come in from the outside and are acceptable and are quite good for you. acceptable and are quite good for you. acceptable and are quite good for you. So that's the front end and the back end So that's the front end and the back end So that's the front end and the back end of life, it's a little bit more of life, it's a little bit more of life, it's a little bit more complicated, but I'll tell you I'll tell complicated, but I'll tell you I'll tell complicated, but I'll tell you I'll tell you two things that I think are you two things that I think are you two things that I think are important. On the one hand is the idea important. On the one hand is the idea important. On the one hand is the idea that is is the is the fact that a lot of that is is the is the fact that a lot of that is is the is the fact that a lot of your cells in general become less your cells in general become less your cells in general become less functional including immune cells. functional including immune cells. functional including immune cells. And you get less cells produced and and And you get less cells produced and and And you get less cells produced and and that might just be because, you know, we that might just be because, you know, we that might just be because, you know, we were never selected as organisms to live were never selected as organisms to live were never selected as organisms to live as long as we do right now. That's the as long as we do right now. That's the as long as we do right now. That's the one idea of aging right here. one idea of aging right here. one idea of aging right here. >> We know that that we just were supposed >> We know that that we just were supposed >> We know that that we just were supposed to be dead by 70. to be dead by 70. to be dead by 70. >> Well, no, but we do know that that we >> Well, no, but we do know that that we >> Well, no, but we do know that that we can reproduce and and you know, pass on can reproduce and and you know, pass on can reproduce and and you know, pass on our genes successfully already when our genes successfully already when our genes successfully already when we're 16. So, you know, the the we're 16. So, you know, the the we're 16. So, you know, the the selective pressure to pass on your genes selective pressure to pass on your genes selective pressure to pass on your genes if you imagine that's how genetic if you imagine that's how genetic if you imagine that's how genetic evolution happens is that you pass on evolution happens is that you pass on evolution happens is that you pass on your genes as being successful. your genes as being successful. your genes as being successful. You can already do that at 16 and You can already do that at 16 and You can already do that at 16 and anything after that is just cream of the anything after that is just cream of the anything after that is just cream of the crop, but um you know, at some point crop, but um you know, at some point crop, but um you know, at some point maybe there's no selection. So we don't maybe there's no selection. So we don't maybe there's no selection. So we don't know that, but it's it's a reasonable know that, but it's it's a reasonable know that, but it's it's a reasonable hypothesis to say there wasn't any real hypothesis to say there wasn't any real hypothesis to say there wasn't any real selective pressure for passing on genes selective pressure for passing on genes selective pressure for passing on genes that do anything past when you're that do anything past when you're that do anything past when you're actually having kids. actually having kids. actually having kids. >> The psychologist would tell us that uh >> The psychologist would tell us that uh >> The psychologist would tell us that uh the wisdom of people, you know, 60, 70, the wisdom of people, you know, 60, 70, the wisdom of people, you know, 60, 70, 80 and beyond is useful for um groups of 80 and beyond is useful for um groups of 80 and beyond is useful for um groups of humans that live in, you know, you know, humans that live in, you know, you know, humans that live in, you know, you know, villages of a hundred or so people cuz villages of a hundred or so people cuz villages of a hundred or so people cuz they can give information to younger they can give information to younger they can give information to younger people that is on the periodicity of people that is on the periodicity of people that is on the periodicity of like every 5 to 10 years, maybe every 30 like every 5 to 10 years, maybe every 30 like every 5 to 10 years, maybe every 30 years. years. years. But that's a just-so story, right? That But that's a just-so story, right? That But that's a just-so story, right? That I mean I mean I mean >> It's a nice just-so story. >> It's a nice just-so story. >> It's a nice just-so story. >> I like >> I like >> I like >> too and I and the I think genome uh >> too and I and the I think genome uh >> too and I and the I think genome uh geneticist will refer to this as like geneticist will refer to this as like geneticist will refer to this as like the grandfather effect where genes may the grandfather effect where genes may the grandfather effect where genes may be selected for and maybe they're mostly be selected for and maybe they're mostly be selected for and maybe they're mostly about you know, genes that make us about you know, genes that make us about you know, genes that make us social in the and for for for the social in the and for for for the social in the and for for for the elderly that do you know, they're going elderly that do you know, they're going elderly that do you know, they're going to have effects on the fitness of their to have effects on the fitness of their to have effects on the fitness of their grandchildren, which is their genes. grandchildren, which is their genes. grandchildren, which is their genes. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so this yeah, I think there's >> And so this yeah, I think there's >> And so this yeah, I think there's something to be said for that in in something to be said for that in in something to be said for that in in conceptual space. I don't know if I can conceptual space. I don't know if I can conceptual space. I don't know if I can prove it to you that that's prove it to you that that's prove it to you that that's >> It's a tough experiment to do. >> It's a tough experiment to do. >> It's a tough experiment to do. >> It's a really tough experiment to have >> It's a really tough experiment to have >> It's a really tough experiment to have two villages where they you know, two villages where they you know, two villages where they you know, grandparents are eliminated or like kept grandparents are eliminated or like kept grandparents are eliminated or like kept you know, it's you know, it's you know, it's both non-ethical and also non-ethical. both non-ethical and also non-ethical. both non-ethical and also non-ethical. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But we're talking about the aging immune >> But we're talking about the aging immune >> But we're talking about the aging immune system and I think I think there's two system and I think I think there's two system and I think I think there's two things that again come to this question things that again come to this question things that again come to this question that I was asking like who are you? that I was asking like who are you? that I was asking like who are you? Um and I was saying okay, well, in aging Um and I was saying okay, well, in aging Um and I was saying okay, well, in aging you have this issue that the immune you have this issue that the immune you have this issue that the immune system is is tapering in its efficacy. system is is tapering in its efficacy. system is is tapering in its efficacy. It's many of the cells that you you It's many of the cells that you you It's many of the cells that you you know, you've been holding your whole know, you've been holding your whole know, you've been holding your whole life start to to literally they die off. life start to to literally they die off. life start to to literally they die off. But there's another thing, which is I But there's another thing, which is I But there's another thing, which is I think a lot of people don't realize when think a lot of people don't realize when think a lot of people don't realize when you say when you you you say when you you you say when you you basic biology would say the sperm you basic biology would say the sperm you basic biology would say the sperm you know, like uh fertilize the egg so you know, like uh fertilize the egg so you know, like uh fertilize the egg so you got your mom's genes and your dad's got your mom's genes and your dad's got your mom's genes and your dad's genes. So you got genes. So you got genes. So you got 23 chromosomes from your mom, 23 23 chromosomes from your mom, 23 23 chromosomes from your mom, 23 chromosomes from your dad. chromosomes from your dad. chromosomes from your dad. And and and at least in when you're And and and at least in when you're And and and at least in when you're first born, every cell is a clone that first born, every cell is a clone that first born, every cell is a clone that has the exactly the same information. has the exactly the same information. has the exactly the same information. But DNA replication and and DNA sort of But DNA replication and and DNA sort of But DNA replication and and DNA sort of like fidelity isn't perfect. Like they like fidelity isn't perfect. Like they like fidelity isn't perfect. Like they say that on your skin, the cells of your say that on your skin, the cells of your say that on your skin, the cells of your skin may have somewhere between 10 and skin may have somewhere between 10 and skin may have somewhere between 10 and 30,000 mutations per cell per day. 30,000 mutations per cell per day. 30,000 mutations per cell per day. Just from like basic sun exposure. And Just from like basic sun exposure. And Just from like basic sun exposure. And it's that that's higher than some of the it's that that's higher than some of the it's that that's higher than some of the other organs, but the basic idea is that other organs, but the basic idea is that other organs, but the basic idea is that your DNA you know, it's susceptible to your DNA you know, it's susceptible to your DNA you know, it's susceptible to UV radiation. That's one of the reasons UV radiation. That's one of the reasons UV radiation. That's one of the reasons we put on sunscreen. we put on sunscreen. we put on sunscreen. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> But what it what it practically means >> But what it what it practically means >> But what it what it practically means and no matter what number you put in and no matter what number you put in and no matter what number you put in there, whether it's 10,000 mutations per there, whether it's 10,000 mutations per there, whether it's 10,000 mutations per day or remember the the genomes are day or remember the the genomes are day or remember the the genomes are huge, right? So 10,000 mutations out of huge, right? So 10,000 mutations out of huge, right? So 10,000 mutations out of terabytes of of of terabytes of of of terabytes of of of information still is only a certain information still is only a certain information still is only a certain number, but do that over every over over number, but do that over every over over number, but do that over every over over years. And the main thing is that years. And the main thing is that years. And the main thing is that that means is that every cell in your that means is that every cell in your that means is that every cell in your body is no longer identical to the one body is no longer identical to the one body is no longer identical to the one next to it because this one got next to it because this one got next to it because this one got different mutations on day one, this one different mutations on day one, this one different mutations on day one, this one got some mutations on day two. And got some mutations on day two. And got some mutations on day two. And slowly but surely, you are becoming like slowly but surely, you are becoming like slowly but surely, you are becoming like a mosaic. a mosaic. a mosaic. And I say mosaic, you know, because like And I say mosaic, you know, because like And I say mosaic, you know, because like the tile you see in Morocco, you know, the tile you see in Morocco, you know, the tile you see in Morocco, you know, very intricate designs. Because if you very intricate designs. Because if you very intricate designs. Because if you actually, you know, start to look into actually, you know, start to look into actually, you know, start to look into tissue, you know, you'll find that tissue, you know, you'll find that tissue, you know, you'll find that certain clones, certain mutations do certain clones, certain mutations do certain clones, certain mutations do make certain cells more fit. And they're make certain cells more fit. And they're make certain cells more fit. And they're the ones that if you scratch yourself the ones that if you scratch yourself the ones that if you scratch yourself and a cell has to like some some new has and a cell has to like some some new has and a cell has to like some some new has to cell has to form, they might be the to cell has to form, they might be the to cell has to form, they might be the fittest to fill that void. fittest to fill that void. fittest to fill that void. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And there's one of the other clones over >> And there's one of the other clones over >> And there's one of the other clones over here that had got a different mutation here that had got a different mutation here that had got a different mutation may not be fit to fill that clone in. So may not be fit to fill that clone in. So may not be fit to fill that clone in. So you you you end up with this pastiche of you you you end up with this pastiche of you you you end up with this pastiche of who you are. So now, again, I ask you who you are. So now, again, I ask you who you are. So now, again, I ask you like who are you now? So if I want to like who are you now? So if I want to like who are you now? So if I want to defend against something defend against something defend against something that looks different. that looks different. that looks different. What if everything looks different? What What if everything looks different? What What if everything looks different? What if every cell is different from every if every cell is different from every if every cell is different from every other cell? other cell? other cell? It's it's it Okay, you want to you want It's it's it Okay, you want to you want It's it's it Okay, you want to you want another analogy? another analogy? another analogy? >> I would like another analogy. The only >> I would like another analogy. The only >> I would like another analogy. The only exception that I can think of to this, exception that I can think of to this, exception that I can think of to this, and I could be wrong, is that our and I could be wrong, is that our and I could be wrong, is that our neurons, neurons, neurons, our central nervous system neurons, our our central nervous system neurons, our our central nervous system neurons, our brain and spinal cord, most all of them brain and spinal cord, most all of them brain and spinal cord, most all of them are the same ones that we were born are the same ones that we were born are the same ones that we were born with. with. with. >> Same cells, but they don't >> Same cells, but they don't >> Same cells, but they don't >> Same cells, but they're So you're saying >> Same cells, but they're So you're saying >> Same cells, but they're So you're saying mutations are constantly occurring in mutations are constantly occurring in mutations are constantly occurring in the neurons as well. the neurons as well. the neurons as well. >> So there's there's this It is >> So there's there's this It is >> So there's there's this It is fascinating, by the way, that neurons fascinating, by the way, that neurons fascinating, by the way, that neurons live that long. And, you know, hair live that long. And, you know, hair live that long. And, you know, hair cells, they they say that the the cells, they they say that the the cells, they they say that the the proteins in our in our hair hair cells proteins in our in our hair hair cells proteins in our in our hair hair cells over here are the same exact molecules, over here are the same exact molecules, over here are the same exact molecules, atoms, as we had when we were born. So atoms, as we had when we were born. So atoms, as we had when we were born. So there's there's some cells that are long there's there's some cells that are long there's there's some cells that are long there, but in their nuclei, the DNA there, but in their nuclei, the DNA there, but in their nuclei, the DNA that's encoding who they are, who those that's encoding who they are, who those that's encoding who they are, who those cells are, is subject to mutation cells are, is subject to mutation cells are, is subject to mutation ongoing. And it depends on how deep they ongoing. And it depends on how deep they ongoing. And it depends on how deep they are. Like the We tend to think that one are. Like the We tend to think that one are. Like the We tend to think that one of the reasons that immune stem cells of the reasons that immune stem cells of the reasons that immune stem cells live in our bone marrows, you know, our live in our bone marrows, you know, our live in our bone marrows, you know, our long bones are hollow. And in there is long bones are hollow. And in there is long bones are hollow. And in there is the source of the immune system's, you the source of the immune system's, you the source of the immune system's, you know, revitalization. It's the stem know, revitalization. It's the stem know, revitalization. It's the stem cells that make more white blood cells. cells that make more white blood cells. cells that make more white blood cells. We'd like to think that they live in We'd like to think that they live in We'd like to think that they live in there because it protects them from there because it protects them from there because it protects them from radiation. radiation. radiation. They they they they they hang out in They they they they they hang out in They they they they they hang out in stem cells are, you know, the the bone stem cells are, you know, the the bone stem cells are, you know, the the bone actually serves not only a structural actually serves not only a structural actually serves not only a structural purpose in our body, but they it's a purpose in our body, but they it's a purpose in our body, but they it's a cavity in which things can live. cavity in which things can live. cavity in which things can live. >> Keep it away from >> Keep it away from >> Keep it away from >> from UV >> from UV >> from UV >> solar radiation solar radiation >> solar radiation solar radiation >> solar radiation solar radiation >> away from chemical cues in the >> away from chemical cues in the >> away from chemical cues in the environment that can mutate. environment that can mutate. environment that can mutate. >> Sequester your stem cells. >> Sequester your stem cells. >> Sequester your stem cells. And um And um And um >> Don't burn them. >> Don't burn them. >> Don't burn them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That kind of thing. >> That kind of thing. >> That kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Likewise, the neurons in the in the uh >> Likewise, the neurons in the in the uh >> Likewise, the neurons in the in the uh inside of the skull inside of the skull inside of the skull >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and the spinal cord >> and the spinal cord >> and the spinal cord >> are protected. >> are protected. >> are protected. >> Um they're protected. >> Um they're protected. >> Um they're protected. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh that's interesting. >> And uh that's interesting. >> And uh that's interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I would like to take a quick break and >> I would like to take a quick break and >> I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv. acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv. acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light Joovv makes medical-grade red light Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. therapy devices. therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have Now, if there's one thing that I have Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, consistently emphasized on this podcast, consistently emphasized on this podcast, is the incredible impact that light can is the incredible impact that light can is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health. have on our biology and our health. have on our biology and our health. 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And you want want to defend a a nation. And you want want to defend a a nation. And you want to defend it from outsiders. And I've to defend it from outsiders. And I've to defend it from outsiders. And I've just told you a story that's if you want just told you a story that's if you want just told you a story that's if you want to take a political statement from it's to take a political statement from it's to take a political statement from it's pro-immigration because all these pro-immigration because all these pro-immigration because all these bacteria that live on us are actually bacteria that live on us are actually bacteria that live on us are actually bringing us goods. And they they do a bringing us goods. And they they do a bringing us goods. And they they do a lot of lot of lot of >> lost half the audience. >> lost half the audience. >> lost half the audience. >> I'm >> I'm >> I'm >> No, I'm just kidding. I'm totally >> No, I'm just kidding. I'm totally >> No, I'm just kidding. I'm totally joking. joking. joking. >> We we're a we're a bipartisan audience. >> We we're a we're a bipartisan audience. >> We we're a we're a bipartisan audience. I'm I'm I'm totally joking. totally joking. totally joking. >> I'm totally joking. >> I'm totally joking. >> I'm totally joking. >> It's the argument for, you know, why why >> It's the argument for, you know, why why >> It's the argument for, you know, why why certain certain certain you know, influx of of of you know, influx of of of you know, influx of of of in this case organisms under us or you in this case organisms under us or you in this case organisms under us or you know, create a more robust, you know, know, create a more robust, you know, know, create a more robust, you know, person than we were before. person than we were before. person than we were before. But I want to give you this this story But I want to give you this this story But I want to give you this this story that one of a famous immunologist in the that one of a famous immunologist in the that one of a famous immunologist in the 1970s 1970s 1970s drew this parallel in wartime and said drew this parallel in wartime and said drew this parallel in wartime and said in you know, World War II in you know, World War II in you know, World War II submarines would be underneath the ocean submarines would be underneath the ocean submarines would be underneath the ocean and they'd be traveling around and they'd be traveling around and they'd be traveling around and they would if they could if they and they would if they could if they and they would if they could if they heard another submarine, they would heard another submarine, they would heard another submarine, they would scuttle the missiles and the torpedoes scuttle the missiles and the torpedoes scuttle the missiles and the torpedoes because that could be the enemy and the because that could be the enemy and the because that could be the enemy and the enemy could fire at them. enemy could fire at them. enemy could fire at them. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And so they had two sets of books >> And so they had two sets of books >> And so they had two sets of books that they used. Uh one of them was a that they used. Uh one of them was a that they used. Uh one of them was a book that gave them the sound profile of book that gave them the sound profile of book that gave them the sound profile of all let's say it's a US of all the US all let's say it's a US of all the US all let's say it's a US of all the US submarines. And so they could listen to submarines. And so they could listen to submarines. And so they could listen to the whir of the engines and if they the whir of the engines and if they the whir of the engines and if they heard a whir of the engine that had a heard a whir of the engine that had a heard a whir of the engine that had a certain cycle of a general you know certain cycle of a general you know certain cycle of a general you know motors engine, they wouldn't fire. So motors engine, they wouldn't fire. So motors engine, they wouldn't fire. So that's the sort of like self I know what that's the sort of like self I know what that's the sort of like self I know what self is. self is. self is. And then they had another book that was And then they had another book that was And then they had another book that was the engine sounds of the known diesel the engine sounds of the known diesel the engine sounds of the known diesel engines of whatever engines of the engines of whatever engines of the engines of whatever engines of the German German German uh you know submarines. And if they uh you know submarines. And if they uh you know submarines. And if they heard that then they absolutely would heard that then they absolutely would heard that then they absolutely would fire. And that's a self versus non-self fire. And that's a self versus non-self fire. And that's a self versus non-self discrimination problem just like the discrimination problem just like the discrimination problem just like the immune system has to do. immune system has to do. immune system has to do. But what I bring you with it aging is But what I bring you with it aging is But what I bring you with it aging is this concept that as you get weirder and this concept that as you get weirder and this concept that as you get weirder and different and your your body is getting different and your your body is getting different and your your body is getting like more complex, like more complex, like more complex, then that as those books, you know, then that as those books, you know, then that as those books, you know, start to have every possible possibly start to have every possible possibly start to have every possible possibly every possible permutation of every every possible permutation of every every possible permutation of every biomolecule could could could be made by biomolecule could could could be made by biomolecule could could could be made by your body at that point. And then a your body at that point. And then a your body at that point. And then a virus doesn't necessarily have anything virus doesn't necessarily have anything virus doesn't necessarily have anything unique about it. A virus is also going unique about it. A virus is also going unique about it. A virus is also going to make proteins and that's your immune to make proteins and that's your immune to make proteins and that's your immune system can see the viral proteins and system can see the viral proteins and system can see the viral proteins and say say say a new thing has come in and that's you a new thing has come in and that's you a new thing has come in and that's you know that's out of range and now I need know that's out of range and now I need know that's out of range and now I need to mount that a T cell response against to mount that a T cell response against to mount that a T cell response against this. I need to make the you know the this. I need to make the you know the this. I need to make the you know the bring in the troops. bring in the troops. bring in the troops. But with aging we have this this kind of But with aging we have this this kind of But with aging we have this this kind of you know us diverging problem. you know us diverging problem. you know us diverging problem. So that this you know this system that's So that this you know this system that's So that this you know this system that's supposed to sense us supposed to sense us supposed to sense us is just you know has a lot of cosmic is just you know has a lot of cosmic is just you know has a lot of cosmic background. That's a lot of noise in it. background. That's a lot of noise in it. background. That's a lot of noise in it. And so I think it I think that's one of And so I think it I think that's one of And so I think it I think that's one of the reasons why we also have issue when the reasons why we also have issue when the reasons why we also have issue when we're aging. And it's I think it's also we're aging. And it's I think it's also we're aging. And it's I think it's also one of the issue reasons why cancer is one of the issue reasons why cancer is one of the issue reasons why cancer is more prevalent in later life. more prevalent in later life. more prevalent in later life. For I mean there's two parts to that. For I mean there's two parts to that. For I mean there's two parts to that. One is of course you've accumulated One is of course you've accumulated One is of course you've accumulated mutations in your cells that could be mutations in your cells that could be mutations in your cells that could be cancerous. cancerous. cancerous. But also the immune system has been But also the immune system has been But also the immune system has been seeing those and all the various seeing those and all the various seeing those and all the various different accumulations of them and ones different accumulations of them and ones different accumulations of them and ones like them you know over these years to like them you know over these years to like them you know over these years to the point where the weird doesn't look the point where the weird doesn't look the point where the weird doesn't look that weird anymore. You you like a that weird anymore. You you like a that weird anymore. You you like a cancer that is different than you, cancer that is different than you, cancer that is different than you, it's not that much different than like it's not that much different than like it's not that much different than like another cell over here that's gone, you another cell over here that's gone, you another cell over here that's gone, you know, like and it's just happily making know, like and it's just happily making know, like and it's just happily making skin and isn't cancerous, but you know, skin and isn't cancerous, but you know, skin and isn't cancerous, but you know, it's it's it's got some differences. it's it's it's got some differences. it's it's it's got some differences. >> What about the argument that there's so >> What about the argument that there's so >> What about the argument that there's so much cellular turnover much cellular turnover much cellular turnover that um that um that um the cells that accumulate these the cells that accumulate these the cells that accumulate these mutations are being eliminated. You're mutations are being eliminated. You're mutations are being eliminated. You're saying because they're clonal, they're saying because they're clonal, they're saying because they're clonal, they're producing producing producing different they become different they different they become different they different they become different they produce cells that are also different produce cells that are also different produce cells that are also different and then they die. Is this Is that the and then they die. Is this Is that the and then they die. Is this Is that the way it works? way it works? way it works? >> Yeah, and I think I think you're you are >> Yeah, and I think I think you're you are >> Yeah, and I think I think you're you are bringing something that's also true, bringing something that's also true, bringing something that's also true, which is that all the time I think the which is that all the time I think the which is that all the time I think the immune system is defending us against, immune system is defending us against, immune system is defending us against, you know, mutations. So, one example you know, mutations. So, one example you know, mutations. So, one example that everybody sees when they get to be that everybody sees when they get to be that everybody sees when they get to be about 40 or or 50 is is little these about 40 or or 50 is is little these about 40 or or 50 is is little these white spots on your skin. And we we white spots on your skin. And we we white spots on your skin. And we we think that those are places where the think that those are places where the think that those are places where the immune system has sensed a collection of immune system has sensed a collection of immune system has sensed a collection of cells that were precancerous, maybe they cells that were precancerous, maybe they cells that were precancerous, maybe they were even beginning of cancer, and has were even beginning of cancer, and has were even beginning of cancer, and has wiped them out. And and so there you wiped them out. And and so there you wiped them out. And and so there you know, know, know, a lot of the origin of cancers in skin a lot of the origin of cancers in skin a lot of the origin of cancers in skin is is melan and then producing cells is is melan and then producing cells is is melan and then producing cells like melana, you know, melanoma is skin like melana, you know, melanoma is skin like melana, you know, melanoma is skin is what we call skin cancer. is what we call skin cancer. is what we call skin cancer. Um those melanocytes that that white Um those melanocytes that that white Um those melanocytes that that white area that's been wiped of a whole area that's been wiped of a whole area that's been wiped of a whole collection of melanocytes and that's why collection of melanocytes and that's why collection of melanocytes and that's why it's, you know, it's it's white it's, you know, it's it's white it's, you know, it's it's white >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> instead of as dark as your as your rest >> instead of as dark as your as your rest >> instead of as dark as your as your rest of your skin. of your skin. of your skin. So, you know, to that extent the idea So, you know, to that extent the idea So, you know, to that extent the idea that the immune system is is pruning you that the immune system is is pruning you that the immune system is is pruning you all the time is, you know, there's it all the time is, you know, there's it all the time is, you know, there's it looks like there's pretty good evidence looks like there's pretty good evidence looks like there's pretty good evidence for that. for that. for that. Um Um Um and the question is when does something and the question is when does something and the question is when does something become dangerous? become dangerous? become dangerous? As that's that's that you know, that's As that's that's that you know, that's As that's that's that you know, that's fundamentally the question with cancer fundamentally the question with cancer fundamentally the question with cancer and these sorts of things. If If you and these sorts of things. If If you and these sorts of things. If If you said, "I want to actually have the said, "I want to actually have the said, "I want to actually have the fittest cells in my skin fittest cells in my skin fittest cells in my skin to uh fill in a gap if I scratch to uh fill in a gap if I scratch to uh fill in a gap if I scratch myself." I would like to have cells that myself." I would like to have cells that myself." I would like to have cells that quickly replicate just like maybe in quickly replicate just like maybe in quickly replicate just like maybe in kids. Kids heal so ridiculously quickly, kids. Kids heal so ridiculously quickly, kids. Kids heal so ridiculously quickly, right? right? right? >> Because they have an abundance of these >> Because they have an abundance of these >> Because they have an abundance of these cells that cells that cells that >> I think I think they're they're they're >> I think I think they're they're they're >> I think I think they're they're they're wound healing. I mean, there's there's a wound healing. I mean, there's there's a wound healing. I mean, there's there's a group out of Stanford that studies this, group out of Stanford that studies this, group out of Stanford that studies this, but essentially, you know, wound healing but essentially, you know, wound healing but essentially, you know, wound healing in in in young is quite quite a bit in in in young is quite quite a bit in in in young is quite quite a bit faster and more efficient and and faster and more efficient and and faster and more efficient and and there's many levels of that. There's there's many levels of that. There's there's many levels of that. There's many levels of that, yeah. many levels of that, yeah. many levels of that, yeah. >> But um yeah, remarkably faster. And if >> But um yeah, remarkably faster. And if >> But um yeah, remarkably faster. And if you're a parent, you've seen this, you you're a parent, you've seen this, you you're a parent, you've seen this, you know, you know, you know, you cut yourself in the same day as a kid, cut yourself in the same day as a kid, cut yourself in the same day as a kid, your kid cut yourself and they're your kid cut yourself and they're your kid cut yourself and they're they're 3 days later they can't even they're 3 days later they can't even they're 3 days later they can't even find it on them. And you know, like 4 find it on them. And you know, like 4 find it on them. And you know, like 4 weeks later you're still like kind of, weeks later you're still like kind of, weeks later you're still like kind of, you know, scabs or something. But I was you know, scabs or something. But I was you know, scabs or something. But I was just coming to the point that if you do just coming to the point that if you do just coming to the point that if you do that and and you want this do you want that and and you want this do you want that and and you want this do you want you maybe you want that to fill back in you maybe you want that to fill back in you maybe you want that to fill back in because you know, certainly out in the because you know, certainly out in the because you know, certainly out in the wild having an open wound is a bad wild having an open wound is a bad wild having an open wound is a bad thing. So you'd like to you know, thing. So you'd like to you know, thing. So you'd like to you know, quickly. quickly. quickly. Well, if a mutation has happened that Well, if a mutation has happened that Well, if a mutation has happened that fills that cell in quick more quickly, fills that cell in quick more quickly, fills that cell in quick more quickly, that is almost by definition a mutation that is almost by definition a mutation that is almost by definition a mutation that's let that cell divide faster. that's let that cell divide faster. that's let that cell divide faster. Well, what is cancer? Well, what is cancer? Well, what is cancer? It's cells that divide faster. So in It's cells that divide faster. So in It's cells that divide faster. So in some sense, all these advances in your some sense, all these advances in your some sense, all these advances in your life were winners win by filling in the life were winners win by filling in the life were winners win by filling in the space left by cells that die is space left by cells that die is space left by cells that die is selecting for cells that get a little selecting for cells that get a little selecting for cells that get a little out of range with growth. And they may out of range with growth. And they may out of range with growth. And they may be a little bit better at growing. be a little bit better at growing. be a little bit better at growing. And then again, there's a quick question And then again, there's a quick question And then again, there's a quick question it's like, well, how much better do you it's like, well, how much better do you it's like, well, how much better do you want that? You want it to like help you, want that? You want it to like help you, want that? You want it to like help you, but at some point you don't want it to but at some point you don't want it to but at some point you don't want it to basically form a lesion and will grow basically form a lesion and will grow basically form a lesion and will grow grow grow grow grow and go other places grow grow grow grow and go other places grow grow grow grow and go other places and grow, which is called metastasis in and grow, which is called metastasis in and grow, which is called metastasis in cancer, which is how most people die. cancer, which is how most people die. cancer, which is how most people die. To me, the the issue of self and To me, the the issue of self and To me, the the issue of self and non-self is one of the ones that's been non-self is one of the ones that's been non-self is one of the ones that's been with immunology for a very long time. with immunology for a very long time. with immunology for a very long time. And again, it's way richer than we And again, it's way richer than we And again, it's way richer than we thought about, I think, in the 1990s or thought about, I think, in the 1990s or thought about, I think, in the 1990s or 2000s. But you know, and then at the 2000s. But you know, and then at the 2000s. But you know, and then at the same time, the idea of what you can do same time, the idea of what you can do same time, the idea of what you can do with that information is also I call with that information is also I call with that information is also I call this kind of a new immunity. Immunity this kind of a new immunity. Immunity this kind of a new immunity. Immunity used to be like a fuel gauge. You'd say used to be like a fuel gauge. You'd say used to be like a fuel gauge. You'd say it was low for self, then it was really it was low for self, then it was really it was low for self, then it was really high against viruses and it was like a high against viruses and it was like a high against viruses and it was like a fuel gauge you know, now it's really fuel gauge you know, now it's really fuel gauge you know, now it's really hot. And what we originally thought we hot. And what we originally thought we hot. And what we originally thought we were doing with cancer immunotherapy was were doing with cancer immunotherapy was were doing with cancer immunotherapy was making it just hotter generally. making it just hotter generally. making it just hotter generally. But now you realize that in between like But now you realize that in between like But now you realize that in between like the immune system not caring about the immune system not caring about the immune system not caring about something at all and and going and you something at all and and going and you something at all and and going and you know, like releasing all its fury on know, like releasing all its fury on know, like releasing all its fury on something are all these other things it something are all these other things it something are all these other things it can do with the information it gathers can do with the information it gathers can do with the information it gathers in there. And that's what I was saying, in there. And that's what I was saying, in there. And that's what I was saying, you know, it can it can like quarantine you know, it can it can like quarantine you know, it can it can like quarantine bacteria. It's not going to kill them. bacteria. It's not going to kill them. bacteria. It's not going to kill them. It's it's in that zone. The bacteria, as It's it's in that zone. The bacteria, as It's it's in that zone. The bacteria, as long as they're in the right zone, long as they're in the right zone, long as they're in the right zone, there's not too many of them, there's there's not too many of them, there's there's not too many of them, there's not too a of them. Immune immune can not too a of them. Immune immune can not too a of them. Immune immune can actually help them be there. It can actually help them be there. It can actually help them be there. It can produce things that like either titrates produce things that like either titrates produce things that like either titrates them out of circulation or keeps them them out of circulation or keeps them them out of circulation or keeps them there. there. there. You know, in all these other studies, You know, in all these other studies, You know, in all these other studies, like I say, in the heart and the you like I say, in the heart and the you like I say, in the heart and the you could almost any organ and and you know, could almost any organ and and you know, could almost any organ and and you know, your immune system is consistently your immune system is consistently your immune system is consistently present and it's consistently measuring present and it's consistently measuring present and it's consistently measuring you. And the you again is this complex you. And the you again is this complex you. And the you again is this complex you. It's not just what came from the you. It's not just what came from the you. It's not just what came from the egg, it's the you that's you right now, egg, it's the you that's you right now, egg, it's the you that's you right now, including all the mutations that you including all the mutations that you including all the mutations that you might have accrued and all the bacteria might have accrued and all the bacteria might have accrued and all the bacteria and and the and the viruses, you know, and and the and the viruses, you know, and and the and the viruses, you know, we have a lot of viruses in our bodies we have a lot of viruses in our bodies we have a lot of viruses in our bodies that we tend to think that at the end of that we tend to think that at the end of that we tend to think that at the end of a of a illness that we've gone back to a of a illness that we've gone back to a of a illness that we've gone back to our pure state. This may come from our pure state. This may come from our pure state. This may come from religion, you know, that we were born religion, you know, that we were born religion, you know, that we were born pure and if God had made us correctly, pure and if God had made us correctly, pure and if God had made us correctly, then we would be pure at the end of then we would be pure at the end of then we would be pure at the end of things. things. things. And you know, that would be pure And you know, that would be pure And you know, that would be pure immunity which would purify us of immunity which would purify us of immunity which would purify us of things. things. things. But the more we look, the more we find But the more we look, the more we find But the more we look, the more we find that every virus leaves a little that every virus leaves a little that every virus leaves a little evidence of a little bit of itself. evidence of a little bit of itself. evidence of a little bit of itself. And then there's a then there's the goal And then there's a then there's the goal And then there's a then there's the goal for the immune system to kind of for the immune system to kind of for the immune system to kind of quarantine that. To say this, you know, quarantine that. To say this, you know, quarantine that. To say this, you know, maybe we don't want to kill every one of maybe we don't want to kill every one of maybe we don't want to kill every one of our cells to get rid of every virus our cells to get rid of every virus our cells to get rid of every virus that's infected one of our cells. that's infected one of our cells. that's infected one of our cells. We need to leave some of those alive. We We need to leave some of those alive. We We need to leave some of those alive. We don't like for example, in in herpes don't like for example, in in herpes don't like for example, in in herpes virus infection, it infects the nerves virus infection, it infects the nerves virus infection, it infects the nerves and when people have you know, and when people have you know, and when people have you know, emergence, they they get nerve pain and emergence, they they get nerve pain and emergence, they they get nerve pain and worse. A lot of that is caused by the worse. A lot of that is caused by the worse. A lot of that is caused by the immune system reacting to the virus immune system reacting to the virus immune system reacting to the virus trying to get out trying to get out trying to get out and then killing off neurons. So the the and then killing off neurons. So the the and then killing off neurons. So the the the it's immunopathology. The immune the it's immunopathology. The immune the it's immunopathology. The immune system is called causing as much of the system is called causing as much of the system is called causing as much of the damage and problem as the virus is. And damage and problem as the virus is. And damage and problem as the virus is. And it's the failure of that detente and it's the failure of that detente and it's the failure of that detente and when certain viruses are just sitting in when certain viruses are just sitting in when certain viruses are just sitting in us, we're perfectly fine. You know, we us, we're perfectly fine. You know, we us, we're perfectly fine. You know, we have viruses in your RNA. As long as have viruses in your RNA. As long as have viruses in your RNA. As long as they're laying dormant, our immune they're laying dormant, our immune they're laying dormant, our immune system can say, "Okay, I'm going to just system can say, "Okay, I'm going to just system can say, "Okay, I'm going to just hang out here and if anything bad hang out here and if anything bad hang out here and if anything bad happens, I'm going to squelch that." happens, I'm going to squelch that." happens, I'm going to squelch that." But it's not like we've been purified. But it's not like we've been purified. But it's not like we've been purified. You know, that's a reality that's a You know, that's a reality that's a You know, that's a reality that's a little bit too bad, but you know, it's little bit too bad, but you know, it's little bit too bad, but you know, it's also one where you say again, if if the also one where you say again, if if the also one where you say again, if if the goal of us is to make it to 30, let's goal of us is to make it to 30, let's goal of us is to make it to 30, let's say you get a say you get a say you get a bad or an early liver infection of a HCV bad or an early liver infection of a HCV bad or an early liver infection of a HCV or HBV. or HBV. or HBV. If the immune system can just let that If the immune system can just let that If the immune system can just let that be, you're not going to destroy your own be, you're not going to destroy your own be, you're not going to destroy your own liver and you'll live to produce and liver and you'll live to produce and liver and you'll live to produce and your genes will get passed on. On the your genes will get passed on. On the your genes will get passed on. On the other hand, if you mount out a massive other hand, if you mount out a massive other hand, if you mount out a massive immune response, you know, you went all immune response, you know, you went all immune response, you know, you went all the way in the fuel gauge to the right, the way in the fuel gauge to the right, the way in the fuel gauge to the right, your immune system can kill you. It your immune system can kill you. It your immune system can kill you. It absolutely can. You know, it's absolutely can. You know, it's absolutely can. You know, it's can kill any cell it wants. So, so that can kill any cell it wants. So, so that can kill any cell it wants. So, so that that that again, that idea that the that that again, that idea that the that that again, that idea that the space in between is the one that we space in between is the one that we space in between is the one that we actually are starting to understand that actually are starting to understand that actually are starting to understand that has all these specialized roles has all these specialized roles has all these specialized roles that are not always about getting rid of that are not always about getting rid of that are not always about getting rid of things at all cost. things at all cost. things at all cost. >> This raises a question for me and >> This raises a question for me and >> This raises a question for me and obviously I'm not an immunologist, but obviously I'm not an immunologist, but obviously I'm not an immunologist, but it seems like one it seems like one it seems like one >> You're going to be one by the end of >> You're going to be one by the end of >> You're going to be one by the end of today. today. today. >> I hope so. >> I hope so. >> I hope so. I like the sound of that. I like the sound of that. I like the sound of that. Um as will the audience. One potentially Um as will the audience. One potentially Um as will the audience. One potentially useful useful useful strategy the immune system could have, strategy the immune system could have, strategy the immune system could have, perhaps, would be rather than to decide perhaps, would be rather than to decide perhaps, would be rather than to decide to launch an attack on a particular cell to launch an attack on a particular cell to launch an attack on a particular cell because it's mutated and different um because it's mutated and different um because it's mutated and different um enough to assess enough to assess enough to assess how many cells throughout the body or how many cells throughout the body or how many cells throughout the body or even just get a local average of how even just get a local average of how even just get a local average of how many cells have similar mutations or many cells have similar mutations or many cells have similar mutations or just are different, right? So that if we just are different, right? So that if we just are different, right? So that if we are indeed born pure um in the are indeed born pure um in the are indeed born pure um in the biological sense, um [laughter] biological sense, um [laughter] biological sense, um [laughter] let's just keep it there for the sake of let's just keep it there for the sake of let's just keep it there for the sake of today's discussion. And, you know, by today's discussion. And, you know, by today's discussion. And, you know, by time we are um you know, 32 years old, time we are um you know, 32 years old, time we are um you know, 32 years old, we are a mosaic of mutations. As it it we are a mosaic of mutations. As it it we are a mosaic of mutations. As it it appears we are. If the immune system appears we are. If the immune system appears we are. If the immune system could surveil multiple regions in the could surveil multiple regions in the could surveil multiple regions in the body, maybe compare organs or maybe keep body, maybe compare organs or maybe keep body, maybe compare organs or maybe keep it within organ system and say, you it within organ system and say, you it within organ system and say, you know, know, know, the number of of mutated cells or not the number of of mutated cells or not the number of of mutated cells or not pure me cells would be one way to do it pure me cells would be one way to do it pure me cells would be one way to do it more simply, perhaps, has exceeded a more simply, perhaps, has exceeded a more simply, perhaps, has exceeded a certain threshold measured I don't know, certain threshold measured I don't know, certain threshold measured I don't know, like enough receptors have something in like enough receptors have something in like enough receptors have something in them that the cell goes, "Okay, you know them that the cell goes, "Okay, you know them that the cell goes, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to fight." what? I'm going to fight." what? I'm going to fight." >> Yeah. Right? In the same way that, you >> Yeah. Right? In the same way that, you >> Yeah. Right? In the same way that, you know, soldiers, you know, they might know, soldiers, you know, they might know, soldiers, you know, they might hear a shot whiz by, but then do they hear a shot whiz by, but then do they hear a shot whiz by, but then do they necessarily reveal their location and necessarily reveal their location and necessarily reveal their location and launch an attack? No, but but if it's uh launch an attack? No, but but if it's uh launch an attack? No, but but if it's uh of an of an of an of an attack, they'll uh fight back. of an attack, they'll uh fight back. of an attack, they'll uh fight back. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It seems like there should be some way >> It seems like there should be some way >> It seems like there should be some way to that the immune system could quantify to that the immune system could quantify to that the immune system could quantify either body wide or or local organ or or either body wide or or local organ or or either body wide or or local organ or or over some period of time they could over some period of time they could over some period of time they could integrate over time. I have to imagine integrate over time. I have to imagine integrate over time. I have to imagine that such a mechanism exists. that such a mechanism exists. that such a mechanism exists. >> You're coming from neurobiology as I >> You're coming from neurobiology as I >> You're coming from neurobiology as I know, and so there is that in know, and so there is that in know, and so there is that in neurobiology of accommodation, right? If neurobiology of accommodation, right? If neurobiology of accommodation, right? If I always tell the story of I went to I always tell the story of I went to I always tell the story of I went to this little village in in France called this little village in in France called this little village in in France called Époisses. Époisses. Époisses. If you know the name, Époisses is a kind If you know the name, Époisses is a kind If you know the name, Époisses is a kind of a famous cheese that they make in of a famous cheese that they make in of a famous cheese that they make in this town, and it's super stinky. this town, and it's super stinky. this town, and it's super stinky. And they make it only in that town, and And they make it only in that town, and And they make it only in that town, and they make a lot of it in that town. And they make a lot of it in that town. And they make a lot of it in that town. And so when you drive into that town, it's so when you drive into that town, it's so when you drive into that town, it's like somebody has the worst foot odor. like somebody has the worst foot odor. like somebody has the worst foot odor. It's striking. It really hits you. It's striking. It really hits you. It's striking. It really hits you. But after being in the town for like an But after being in the town for like an But after being in the town for like an hour, hour, hour, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> you don't notice it. >> you don't notice it. >> you don't notice it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's neuronal accommodation, where >> And that's neuronal accommodation, where >> And that's neuronal accommodation, where your nervous does the same kind of thing your nervous does the same kind of thing your nervous does the same kind of thing you're talking about, where the you you're talking about, where the you you're talking about, where the you know, the know, the know, the uh sensors in your nose can become uh sensors in your nose can become uh sensors in your nose can become They're like, okay, I've seen it, I've They're like, okay, I've seen it, I've They're like, okay, I've seen it, I've seen it. Now it's not anymore. And And seen it. Now it's not anymore. And And seen it. Now it's not anymore. And And so I'm going to tune that out because so I'm going to tune that out because so I'm going to tune that out because then your nose has the potential to then your nose has the potential to then your nose has the potential to smell other dangers or other stuff, smell other dangers or other stuff, smell other dangers or other stuff, right? right? right? So that's the nervous system. And I I So that's the nervous system. And I I So that's the nervous system. And I I think you're exactly right where you're think you're exactly right where you're think you're exactly right where you're going with this is And we think this is going with this is And we think this is going with this is And we think this is true that the immune system true that the immune system true that the immune system is it you know, for danger, it's looking is it you know, for danger, it's looking is it you know, for danger, it's looking for something that you would call like a for something that you would call like a for something that you would call like a it's how it's seen the signal over time. it's how it's seen the signal over time. it's how it's seen the signal over time. So a virus may you know, the Let's Let's So a virus may you know, the Let's Let's So a virus may you know, the Let's Let's say your T cell recognize a virus. say your T cell recognize a virus. say your T cell recognize a virus. Well, you're looking for something that Well, you're looking for something that Well, you're looking for something that you've had nothing of before. And then you've had nothing of before. And then you've had nothing of before. And then all of a sudden the virus comes in and all of a sudden the virus comes in and all of a sudden the virus comes in and starts replicating, and you have a lot starts replicating, and you have a lot starts replicating, and you have a lot of it. And then at some point, if you of it. And then at some point, if you of it. And then at some point, if you get rid of it, it'll come back down to get rid of it, it'll come back down to get rid of it, it'll come back down to next to nothing. And in that period you next to nothing. And in that period you next to nothing. And in that period you mounted a an immune response, mounted a an immune response, mounted a an immune response, [clears throat] and you learn it, and so [clears throat] and you learn it, and so [clears throat] and you learn it, and so the next time around you'll be faster to the next time around you'll be faster to the next time around you'll be faster to respond to it, and keep you from getting respond to it, and keep you from getting respond to it, and keep you from getting sick. sick. sick. That's one kind of signal. That's one kind of signal. That's one kind of signal. But self can have either one of two But self can have either one of two But self can have either one of two signals, I think. One of them is that signals, I think. One of them is that signals, I think. One of them is that you've had it your entire life. you've had it your entire life. you've had it your entire life. So that amount of protein, maybe it's a So that amount of protein, maybe it's a So that amount of protein, maybe it's a maybe it's insulin, you know, which we maybe it's insulin, you know, which we maybe it's insulin, you know, which we think in general, you know, it has a think in general, you know, it has a think in general, you know, it has a little bit of signal up and down as you little bit of signal up and down as you little bit of signal up and down as you have a sugar, but there's a range for have a sugar, but there's a range for have a sugar, but there's a range for that. And so your body gets to used to that. And so your body gets to used to that. And so your body gets to used to that range, and the T cells that see that range, and the T cells that see that range, and the T cells that see insulin, they are very low. They're insulin, they are very low. They're insulin, they are very low. They're going to only be very very low reactive going to only be very very low reactive going to only be very very low reactive to that. And there's there's a whole to that. And there's there's a whole to that. And there's there's a whole story behind that. But basically, story behind that. But basically, story behind that. But basically, they're going to see that level. they're going to see that level. they're going to see that level. But you can also have things that the But you can also have things that the But you can also have things that the immune system is going to want to treat immune system is going to want to treat immune system is going to want to treat like self that maybe do a slow rise. like self that maybe do a slow rise. like self that maybe do a slow rise. They don't have this peak that you have They don't have this peak that you have They don't have this peak that you have with viruses. So like a a mutant cell, with viruses. So like a a mutant cell, with viruses. So like a a mutant cell, and maybe it's just a tiny tiny bit and maybe it's just a tiny tiny bit and maybe it's just a tiny tiny bit above normal above normal above normal for months. And then it makes two copies for months. And then it makes two copies for months. And then it makes two copies of itself. And now it's a little bit of itself. And now it's a little bit of itself. And now it's a little bit higher than normal. The immune system higher than normal. The immune system higher than normal. The immune system is, you know, has I think one of the is, you know, has I think one of the is, you know, has I think one of the deficits with cancer is exactly that. deficits with cancer is exactly that. deficits with cancer is exactly that. That things that you do, and and this is That things that you do, and and this is That things that you do, and and this is sort of like I tried to live my life a sort of like I tried to live my life a sort of like I tried to live my life a little bit this way, but it's not little bit this way, but it's not little bit this way, but it's not validated by any, you know, any validated by any, you know, any validated by any, you know, any experimental stuff. It is the idea that experimental stuff. It is the idea that experimental stuff. It is the idea that whatever you are whatever you are whatever you are is what the immune system is going to is what the immune system is going to is what the immune system is going to help you be. help you be. help you be. If it if it's if it's a slow direction If it if it's if it's a slow direction If it if it's if it's a slow direction this way, it's going to it's going to be this way, it's going to it's going to be this way, it's going to it's going to be okay with that. What it doesn't like is okay with that. What it doesn't like is okay with that. What it doesn't like is like big spikes. And and and and and like big spikes. And and and and and like big spikes. And and and and and that's maybe the signal that you're that's maybe the signal that you're that's maybe the signal that you're asking about. Like could you actually asking about. Like could you actually asking about. Like could you actually get to the point where you'd be get to the point where you'd be get to the point where you'd be reactive? The problem with cancer is reactive? The problem with cancer is reactive? The problem with cancer is that it is, you know, the slow and that it is, you know, the slow and that it is, you know, the slow and nefarious. It grows over time. And it nefarious. It grows over time. And it nefarious. It grows over time. And it and and I think we're made to absorb and and I think we're made to absorb and and I think we're made to absorb slow change. Mhm. Because if it's not slow change. Mhm. Because if it's not slow change. Mhm. Because if it's not causing us to be sick yesterday and a causing us to be sick yesterday and a causing us to be sick yesterday and a little bit more of it isn't causing us little bit more of it isn't causing us little bit more of it isn't causing us to be sick today, to be sick today, to be sick today, then it's probably just a developmental then it's probably just a developmental then it's probably just a developmental change. Maybe it's a new bacteria. Maybe change. Maybe it's a new bacteria. Maybe change. Maybe it's a new bacteria. Maybe it's a new, you know, that that that's it's a new, you know, that that that's it's a new, you know, that that that's commensal. As as long as it doesn't commensal. As as long as it doesn't commensal. As as long as it doesn't accompany, again, viruses have two accompany, again, viruses have two accompany, again, viruses have two features in common. One one is the spike features in common. One one is the spike features in common. One one is the spike of of, you know, appearance. But they of of, you know, appearance. But they of of, you know, appearance. But they also cause damage in that window. And so also cause damage in that window. And so also cause damage in that window. And so you have like these cues that I think you have like these cues that I think you have like these cues that I think the immune system, and I say the immune the immune system, and I say the immune the immune system, and I say the immune system because it's some cells are going system because it's some cells are going system because it's some cells are going to see the damage and some cells are to see the damage and some cells are to see the damage and some cells are going to see the the additional proteins going to see the the additional proteins going to see the the additional proteins that come in. And and then they exchange that come in. And and then they exchange that come in. And and then they exchange information just like your brain, you information just like your brain, you information just like your brain, you know, we know, we know, we you can talk about the fact that the you can talk about the fact that the you can talk about the fact that the brain has this wired, you know, set of brain has this wired, you know, set of brain has this wired, you know, set of cells that are wired in space. They're cells that are wired in space. They're cells that are wired in space. They're you know, across your body from your you know, across your body from your you know, across your body from your brain all the way to a muscle, let's brain all the way to a muscle, let's brain all the way to a muscle, let's say. say. say. The immune system has this collection of The immune system has this collection of The immune system has this collection of cells that are they're literally cells that are they're literally cells that are they're literally crawling around us right now. And we crawling around us right now. And we crawling around us right now. And we used to do we still do a lot of imaging. used to do we still do a lot of imaging. used to do we still do a lot of imaging. If you look in a a of skin, you can see If you look in a a of skin, you can see If you look in a a of skin, you can see the cells of the immune system are the cells of the immune system are the cells of the immune system are really really surveying us. They're really really surveying us. They're really really surveying us. They're crawling around. crawling around. crawling around. But they get together like neurons and But they get together like neurons and But they get together like neurons and they can form synapses and one can say they can form synapses and one can say they can form synapses and one can say to another one, "This is what I saw." to another one, "This is what I saw." to another one, "This is what I saw." And then the other says, "Oh, you saw And then the other says, "Oh, you saw And then the other says, "Oh, you saw that? Well, I you know, I'm just seeing that? Well, I you know, I'm just seeing that? Well, I you know, I'm just seeing this." And they can, you know, form a this." And they can, you know, form a this." And they can, you know, form a cluster of cells that basically get cluster of cells that basically get cluster of cells that basically get together like a neural little mini brain together like a neural little mini brain together like a neural little mini brain in our tissue and they can say, "This is in our tissue and they can say, "This is in our tissue and they can say, "This is bad. We got to do something about that." bad. We got to do something about that." bad. We got to do something about that." But I think the slow burn doesn't do But I think the slow burn doesn't do But I think the slow burn doesn't do that. The slow burn is one of the ones that. The slow burn is one of the ones that. The slow burn is one of the ones where the cells are like, "Yeah, where the cells are like, "Yeah, where the cells are like, "Yeah, yeah, it's not that bad." yeah, it's not that bad." yeah, it's not that bad." >> I realize this perhaps is not your >> I realize this perhaps is not your >> I realize this perhaps is not your immediate area of research, but recently immediate area of research, but recently immediate area of research, but recently I've been seeing a lot more interest I've been seeing a lot more interest I've been seeing a lot more interest in the thymus. in the thymus. in the thymus. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> This organ that we have when we're young >> This organ that we have when we're young >> This organ that we have when we're young and it disappears as we get older and and it disappears as we get older and and it disappears as we get older and there's a lot of interest in the thymus. there's a lot of interest in the thymus. there's a lot of interest in the thymus. Maybe Maybe Maybe because [snorts] we've never covered the because [snorts] we've never covered the because [snorts] we've never covered the thymus on this podcast in any amount of thymus on this podcast in any amount of thymus on this podcast in any amount of detail. If you could just educate us a detail. If you could just educate us a detail. If you could just educate us a bit what it is, what it does, and why it bit what it is, what it does, and why it bit what it is, what it does, and why it might be interesting as a as a might be interesting as a as a might be interesting as a as a therapeutic. I mean, maybe we in a few therapeutic. I mean, maybe we in a few therapeutic. I mean, maybe we in a few years we'll all be banking our thymic years we'll all be banking our thymic years we'll all be banking our thymic cells. cells. cells. Maybe we will be I know some people are Maybe we will be I know some people are Maybe we will be I know some people are already injecting non-FDA approved already injecting non-FDA approved already injecting non-FDA approved peptides that come from the thymus. I'm peptides that come from the thymus. I'm peptides that come from the thymus. I'm not recommending anyone do that, but not recommending anyone do that, but not recommending anyone do that, but people are already doing it because people are already doing it because people are already doing it because that's the the internet in 2026. that's the the internet in 2026. that's the the internet in 2026. What's the thymus? What does it do? Why What's the thymus? What does it do? Why What's the thymus? What does it do? Why this interest? this interest? this interest? >> Yeah. Well, I can back up one step and >> Yeah. Well, I can back up one step and >> Yeah. Well, I can back up one step and I've I've used the word T cell before. I've I've used the word T cell before. I've I've used the word T cell before. And T cell originally was thymus cell. And T cell originally was thymus cell. And T cell originally was thymus cell. So So So for those that maybe don't, you know, for those that maybe don't, you know, for those that maybe don't, you know, have gone to had blood taken, you know, have gone to had blood taken, you know, have gone to had blood taken, you know, you if you have blood taken in a you if you have blood taken in a you if you have blood taken in a hospital whatever, you'll you'll get red hospital whatever, you'll you'll get red hospital whatever, you'll you'll get red blood cells and those are the cells that blood cells and those are the cells that blood cells and those are the cells that carry oxygen around your body and then carry oxygen around your body and then carry oxygen around your body and then you have white blood cells that come in you have white blood cells that come in you have white blood cells that come in two flavors. Two main Well, they come in two flavors. Two main Well, they come in two flavors. Two main Well, they come in multiple flavors, but we'll for the multiple flavors, but we'll for the multiple flavors, but we'll for the moment we'll talk about two. One one are moment we'll talk about two. One one are moment we'll talk about two. One one are called B cells and one are called T called B cells and one are called T called B cells and one are called T cells. And T cells were named because of cells. And T cells were named because of cells. And T cells were named because of the thymus. So the thymus is this funny the thymus. So the thymus is this funny the thymus. So the thymus is this funny organ organ organ and it has a funny history. In fact, I'm and it has a funny history. In fact, I'm and it has a funny history. In fact, I'm I'm writing these substacks these days I'm writing these substacks these days I'm writing these substacks these days and and and I'm writing one that's supposed to be I'm writing one that's supposed to be I'm writing one that's supposed to be released tomorrow about the thymus released tomorrow about the thymus released tomorrow about the thymus because it you know, uh because it you know, uh because it you know, uh it really should have gotten the Nobel it really should have gotten the Nobel it really should have gotten the Nobel Prize. There's a There's a who's alive, Prize. There's a There's a who's alive, Prize. There's a There's a who's alive, he's like 97 years old in in Australia he's like 97 years old in in Australia he's like 97 years old in in Australia who did this saw that did this who did this saw that did this who did this saw that did this remarkable kind of experiment. remarkable kind of experiment. remarkable kind of experiment. There was this time when kids that had There was this time when kids that had There was this time when kids that had heart issues heart issues heart issues would come in for surgeries would come in for surgeries would come in for surgeries and they would discover this enormous and they would discover this enormous and they would discover this enormous white whitish organ as a growth white whitish organ as a growth white whitish organ as a growth near the heart as they were taking the near the heart as they were taking the near the heart as they were taking the body, you know, they're they're cutting body, you know, they're they're cutting body, you know, they're they're cutting open. open. open. And all the autopsies up to that point And all the autopsies up to that point And all the autopsies up to that point had been done mostly with adults. And in had been done mostly with adults. And in had been done mostly with adults. And in adults, there's only this small little adults, there's only this small little adults, there's only this small little thing there. thing there. thing there. And so they're like, "Oh my god, part of And so they're like, "Oh my god, part of And so they're like, "Oh my god, part of the heart thing is this overgrown the heart thing is this overgrown the heart thing is this overgrown thing." They didn't really know what it thing." They didn't really know what it thing." They didn't really know what it did. did. did. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And so they would remove it. And uh the >> And so they would remove it. And uh the >> And so they would remove it. And uh the kids then go home and they it was kids then go home and they it was kids then go home and they it was usually exploratory heart surgery, but usually exploratory heart surgery, but usually exploratory heart surgery, but kids would go home kids would go home kids would go home and uh far from you know, dying of heart and uh far from you know, dying of heart and uh far from you know, dying of heart disease, many of them would die from disease, many of them would die from disease, many of them would die from like opportunistic infections. They'd like opportunistic infections. They'd like opportunistic infections. They'd get all these infections, they'd get flu get all these infections, they'd get flu get all these infections, they'd get flu and and cetera. And so there was this and and cetera. And so there was this and and cetera. And so there was this hint that maybe this removal had taken hint that maybe this removal had taken hint that maybe this removal had taken out a critical part of your immune out a critical part of your immune out a critical part of your immune system, had made it so you were super system, had made it so you were super system, had made it so you were super susceptible to bacteria. susceptible to bacteria. susceptible to bacteria. And so this guy named Jacques Miller And so this guy named Jacques Miller And so this guy named Jacques Miller who's who's who's this this nice 70-year-old codger in in this this nice 70-year-old codger in in this this nice 70-year-old codger in in Australia. Australia. Australia. At the time he was in in England and he At the time he was in in England and he At the time he was in in England and he basically took a bunch of mice and and basically took a bunch of mice and and basically took a bunch of mice and and when they're newborn he removed their when they're newborn he removed their when they're newborn he removed their thymus, the same same little whitish thymus, the same same little whitish thymus, the same same little whitish organ. organ. organ. And sure enough, those mice were they And sure enough, those mice were they And sure enough, those mice were they they basically grew up okay, but then they basically grew up okay, but then they basically grew up okay, but then they all would succumb to bacterial they all would succumb to bacterial they all would succumb to bacterial infections. And in fact, a few of them infections. And in fact, a few of them infections. And in fact, a few of them even got tumors, which was kind of noted even got tumors, which was kind of noted even got tumors, which was kind of noted at the time but forgot. at the time but forgot. at the time but forgot. And the reason why that is is because And the reason why that is is because And the reason why that is is because the thymus is the place that makes all the thymus is the place that makes all the thymus is the place that makes all your T cells. your T cells. your T cells. And it and it comes from a kind of And it and it comes from a kind of And it and it comes from a kind of convoluted pathway. You remember how we convoluted pathway. You remember how we convoluted pathway. You remember how we were talking about how the stem cells of were talking about how the stem cells of were talking about how the stem cells of your immune system lives in your bone? your immune system lives in your bone? your immune system lives in your bone? Well, there's stem cells that live in Well, there's stem cells that live in Well, there's stem cells that live in your bone and they travel through your your bone and they travel through your your bone and they travel through your bone through your blood to the thymus bone through your blood to the thymus bone through your blood to the thymus and become T cells. and become T cells. and become T cells. And [snorts] the the reason they need to And [snorts] the the reason they need to And [snorts] the the reason they need to do that is that the thymus is this kind do that is that the thymus is this kind do that is that the thymus is this kind of super special place that is able to of super special place that is able to of super special place that is able to present to them to show them all of the present to them to show them all of the present to them to show them all of the genes in your genome in various genes in your genome in various genes in your genome in various different ways. different ways. different ways. And so the T cells that come in there, And so the T cells that come in there, And so the T cells that come in there, they're T cells are developing and they they're T cells are developing and they they're T cells are developing and they each have a possible 10 to the 11th each have a possible 10 to the 11th each have a possible 10 to the 11th different kinds of receptors to smell different kinds of receptors to smell different kinds of receptors to smell different things. different things. different things. And you don't want any of them to come And you don't want any of them to come And you don't want any of them to come out that are too reactive to you. So, out that are too reactive to you. So, out that are too reactive to you. So, you don't want to you don't want to you don't want to you don't want to you don't want to you don't want to produce T cells that are going to go off produce T cells that are going to go off produce T cells that are going to go off and and and kill your pancreas or, you know, kill kill your pancreas or, you know, kill kill your pancreas or, you know, kill your big toe or anything, right? You your big toe or anything, right? You your big toe or anything, right? You want to you want to maintain like want to you want to maintain like want to you want to maintain like tolerance. So, you want to make sure tolerance. So, you want to make sure tolerance. So, you want to make sure that you don't make the immune system that you don't make the immune system that you don't make the immune system that's too harsh. So, the the thymus has that's too harsh. So, the the thymus has that's too harsh. So, the the thymus has the the role of producing T cells, the the role of producing T cells, the the role of producing T cells, but also of educating them in some ways but also of educating them in some ways but also of educating them in some ways of only letting the ones that come out of only letting the ones that come out of only letting the ones that come out have that have sensors that are have that have sensors that are have that have sensors that are correctly tuned correctly tuned correctly tuned to to let you be you in that way. to to let you be you in that way. to to let you be you in that way. Now, [snorts] to the point about the the Now, [snorts] to the point about the the Now, [snorts] to the point about the the story and you were asking about aging is story and you were asking about aging is story and you were asking about aging is that is that in kids those are really that is that in kids those are really that is that in kids those are really big because at that point we're talking big because at that point we're talking big because at that point we're talking about the developing immune system. It about the developing immune system. It about the developing immune system. It has to has to has to go from like, you know, living under the go from like, you know, living under the go from like, you know, living under the veil of your mother's immunity veil of your mother's immunity veil of your mother's immunity and then it needs to let some and then it needs to let some and then it needs to let some development happen and then it needs to development happen and then it needs to development happen and then it needs to burst out and start to be able to react burst out and start to be able to react burst out and start to be able to react against whatever bacteria and viruses against whatever bacteria and viruses against whatever bacteria and viruses you're going to see over life. So, your you're going to see over life. So, your you're going to see over life. So, your thymus has this huge output. So, as a thymus has this huge output. So, as a thymus has this huge output. So, as a like between like between like between >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> really from, you know, three to six >> really from, you know, three to six >> really from, you know, three to six months old and, you know, into your into months old and, you know, into your into months old and, you know, into your into your four or five years age and but your four or five years age and but your four or five years age and but tapering, your body makes tons of T tapering, your body makes tons of T tapering, your body makes tons of T cells and it's because of probably what cells and it's because of probably what cells and it's because of probably what you're talking about. You're getting you're talking about. You're getting you're talking about. You're getting exposed to all kinds of different back exposed to all kinds of different back exposed to all kinds of different back bacteria and viruses and so you need to bacteria and viruses and so you need to bacteria and viruses and so you need to make that make that collection of immune make that make that collection of immune make that make that collection of immune cells that both some of them, you know, cells that both some of them, you know, cells that both some of them, you know, see self at low levels, but then they see self at low levels, but then they see self at low levels, but then they also can maybe react against different also can maybe react against different also can maybe react against different things in the environment, including the things in the environment, including the things in the environment, including the ones you need to defend against. ones you need to defend against. ones you need to defend against. Then what happens is because again, I Then what happens is because again, I Then what happens is because again, I think we're not needing that later and think we're not needing that later and think we're not needing that later and maybe we don't even want that, the maybe we don't even want that, the maybe we don't even want that, the thymus involutes. It gets super super thymus involutes. It gets super super thymus involutes. It gets super super small. So, that in aged people it's like small. So, that in aged people it's like small. So, that in aged people it's like tiny. tiny. tiny. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And um >> And um >> And um and so it's not putting out new T cells. and so it's not putting out new T cells. and so it's not putting out new T cells. And so, the reason why there's interest And so, the reason why there's interest And so, the reason why there's interest in like these peptides, but all these in like these peptides, but all these in like these peptides, but all these other approaches to like revitalize the other approaches to like revitalize the other approaches to like revitalize the thymus is that like in cancer, for thymus is that like in cancer, for thymus is that like in cancer, for example, example, example, wouldn't you like to have a whole bunch wouldn't you like to have a whole bunch wouldn't you like to have a whole bunch of new T cells that could come into in of new T cells that could come into in of new T cells that could come into in into you, flood in there with exactly into you, flood in there with exactly into you, flood in there with exactly the specificity for the for the tumor? the specificity for the for the tumor? the specificity for the for the tumor? The tumor has managed to teach all of The tumor has managed to teach all of The tumor has managed to teach all of your normal cells and other T cells in your normal cells and other T cells in your normal cells and other T cells in your body that it's normal. Maybe you your body that it's normal. Maybe you your body that it's normal. Maybe you need a source of new material to come in need a source of new material to come in need a source of new material to come in and do that. and do that. and do that. And there's really two ways I think you And there's really two ways I think you And there's really two ways I think you you mentioned you talked to Alex Marson you mentioned you talked to Alex Marson you mentioned you talked to Alex Marson not so long ago, and he I'm sure he not so long ago, and he I'm sure he not so long ago, and he I'm sure he would have talked about engineering would have talked about engineering would have talked about engineering cells that you can engineer on the cells that you can engineer on the cells that you can engineer on the outside and give them specificity. outside and give them specificity. outside and give them specificity. But [snorts] the sort of like if you But [snorts] the sort of like if you But [snorts] the sort of like if you will the more natural route to that will the more natural route to that will the more natural route to that might be to to let the thymus make you might be to to let the thymus make you might be to to let the thymus make you some more T cells, and and make sure some more T cells, and and make sure some more T cells, and and make sure that as they come out you make sure that that as they come out you make sure that that as they come out you make sure that they can react against this tumor or they can react against this tumor or they can react against this tumor or whatever it is you need to defend whatever it is you need to defend whatever it is you need to defend against. It's always been a fascinating against. It's always been a fascinating against. It's always been a fascinating organ from the sense that it's the organ from the sense that it's the organ from the sense that it's the origin of all the cell types that we origin of all the cell types that we origin of all the cell types that we care about, and the T cells in that care about, and the T cells in that care about, and the T cells in that case. But it does have this like aging case. But it does have this like aging case. But it does have this like aging hit, you know, this sort of aging effect hit, you know, this sort of aging effect hit, you know, this sort of aging effect that seems to make us a little bit more that seems to make us a little bit more that seems to make us a little bit more susceptible to things later in life. And susceptible to things later in life. And susceptible to things later in life. And you know, again we could argue about you know, again we could argue about you know, again we could argue about what whether there was a big what whether there was a big what whether there was a big evolutionary design behind doing that, evolutionary design behind doing that, evolutionary design behind doing that, or whether there just wasn't needed. or whether there just wasn't needed. or whether there just wasn't needed. Because if you've got you get to 30 and Because if you've got you get to 30 and Because if you've got you get to 30 and you died of an arrow wound, you know, you died of an arrow wound, you know, you died of an arrow wound, you know, you know, you know, you know, and but you've given your genes, you're and but you've given your genes, you're and but you've given your genes, you're you're a winner in the evolutionary you're a winner in the evolutionary you're a winner in the evolutionary sense. sense. sense. You know. You know. You know. >> I love this uh >> I love this uh >> I love this uh uh this stance on well, if you've uh this stance on well, if you've uh this stance on well, if you've already reproduced, I'll just I'll give already reproduced, I'll just I'll give already reproduced, I'll just I'll give a brief uh vignette. Uh we were a brief uh vignette. Uh we were a brief uh vignette. Uh we were introduced by our uh mutual friend uh introduced by our uh mutual friend uh introduced by our uh mutual friend uh David Feldheim, who's a a phenomenal David Feldheim, who's a a phenomenal David Feldheim, who's a a phenomenal developmental biologist from UC Santa developmental biologist from UC Santa developmental biologist from UC Santa Cruz, and his wife Sophie Salama is also Cruz, and his wife Sophie Salama is also Cruz, and his wife Sophie Salama is also phenomenal biologist, a mutual friend. phenomenal biologist, a mutual friend. phenomenal biologist, a mutual friend. And years ago I was in Dave's lab And years ago I was in Dave's lab And years ago I was in Dave's lab because we're long-time collaborators because we're long-time collaborators because we're long-time collaborators and published a bunch of papers and published a bunch of papers and published a bunch of papers together, and uh together, and uh together, and uh he was doing some injections. I'm going he was doing some injections. I'm going he was doing some injections. I'm going to get you in trouble, Dave. He doesn't to get you in trouble, Dave. He doesn't to get you in trouble, Dave. He doesn't do this any longer. do this any longer. do this any longer. >> Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to join him >> Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to join him >> Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to join him to get you in trouble cuz we to get you in trouble cuz we to get you in trouble cuz we >> doing some injections, and he might have >> doing some injections, and he might have >> doing some injections, and he might have been using might have been using been using might have been using been using might have been using carbocyanide dyes. carbocyanide dyes. carbocyanide dyes. This was kind of conventional tool bag. This was kind of conventional tool bag. This was kind of conventional tool bag. You put a little crystal in a piece of You put a little crystal in a piece of You put a little crystal in a piece of tissue that's fixed tissue, so it's not tissue that's fixed tissue, so it's not tissue that's fixed tissue, so it's not a live animal or anything. And then you a live animal or anything. And then you a live animal or anything. And then you put it in the fridge, and then the put it in the fridge, and then the put it in the fridge, and then the fluorescent dye would label a set of fluorescent dye would label a set of fluorescent dye would label a set of neurons in a pathway. And um neurons in a pathway. And um neurons in a pathway. And um and I walked over and I I saw Dave doing and I walked over and I I saw Dave doing and I walked over and I I saw Dave doing this, and he wasn't wearing any gloves. this, and he wasn't wearing any gloves. this, and he wasn't wearing any gloves. And I thought, these are carbocyanide And I thought, these are carbocyanide And I thought, these are carbocyanide dyes. dyes. dyes. >> With cyanide being the >> With cyanide being the >> With cyanide being the >> being the being the >> being the being the >> being the being the And I said um And I said um And I said um Dave, Dave, Dave, uh uh uh don't you want to put on gloves? And he don't you want to put on gloves? And he don't you want to put on gloves? And he literally looked up from the microscope literally looked up from the microscope literally looked up from the microscope and he I'll never forget and he said and he I'll never forget and he said and he I'll never forget and he said I've already successfully reproduced. I've already successfully reproduced. I've already successfully reproduced. And he went back to doing it. And it's And he went back to doing it. And it's And he went back to doing it. And it's his lab. So and everyone else was his lab. So and everyone else was his lab. So and everyone else was following safety protocol. Don't go following safety protocol. Don't go following safety protocol. Don't go after him. He doesn't do this any after him. He doesn't do this any after him. He doesn't do this any longer, folks. But um there's an longer, folks. But um there's an longer, folks. But um there's an interesting mindset among you because he interesting mindset among you because he interesting mindset among you because he comes from cell biology. comes from cell biology. comes from cell biology. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Randy Schekman's lab. >> Randy Schekman's lab. >> Randy Schekman's lab. >> Nobel Prize in Nobel Prize >> Nobel Prize in Nobel Prize >> Nobel Prize in Nobel Prize >> joining laboratories as graduate >> joining laboratories as graduate >> joining laboratories as graduate student. So I I find it remarkable that student. So I I find it remarkable that student. So I I find it remarkable that this this stance of well, if you've this this stance of well, if you've this this stance of well, if you've already successfully reproduced, you already successfully reproduced, you already successfully reproduced, you really aren't needed. But um his kids really aren't needed. But um his kids really aren't needed. But um his kids are now graduated or in college. So are now graduated or in college. So are now graduated or in college. So there is this thing about raising the there is this thing about raising the there is this thing about raising the young, too. And not just creating them young, too. And not just creating them young, too. And not just creating them and then dying. and then dying. and then dying. >> Agreed. I think there's a fitness >> Agreed. I think there's a fitness >> Agreed. I think there's a fitness associated with being older than that. associated with being older than that. associated with being older than that. And And again, when I say that this it And And again, when I say that this it And And again, when I say that this it is maybe just taking this from a purely is maybe just taking this from a purely is maybe just taking this from a purely like what would have been the source of like what would have been the source of like what would have been the source of what we are today? You know, what would what we are today? You know, what would what we are today? You know, what would have been the selective pressures on have been the selective pressures on have been the selective pressures on them? And it would have been a little them? And it would have been a little them? And it would have been a little bit like Dave is saying, you got to you bit like Dave is saying, you got to you bit like Dave is saying, you got to you know, the selective pressure is to get know, the selective pressure is to get know, the selective pressure is to get your your your uh you know, for it for for my genes to uh you know, for it for for my genes to uh you know, for it for for my genes to be passed on, my offspring have to be be passed on, my offspring have to be be passed on, my offspring have to be born. born. born. And then have to get to some age because And then have to get to some age because And then have to get to some age because most humans are born pretty incapable most humans are born pretty incapable most humans are born pretty incapable for a period. It's not like giraffes for a period. It's not like giraffes for a period. It's not like giraffes where they drop off and then you know, where they drop off and then you know, where they drop off and then you know, drop out and within an hour they're drop out and within an hour they're drop out and within an hour they're running. running. running. Um Um Um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> so that that that period of of raising >> so that that that period of of raising >> so that that that period of of raising children, I think creates more pressure children, I think creates more pressure children, I think creates more pressure in in humans to to to you know, to in in humans to to to you know, to in in humans to to to you know, to successfully be healthy longer. successfully be healthy longer. successfully be healthy longer. But I guess just you know, that maybe a But I guess just you know, that maybe a But I guess just you know, that maybe a negative viewpoint and then maybe negative viewpoint and then maybe negative viewpoint and then maybe but that concept that maybe there isn't but that concept that maybe there isn't but that concept that maybe there isn't as much pressure for you to be healthy. as much pressure for you to be healthy. as much pressure for you to be healthy. And And going with this is the idea that And And going with this is the idea that And And going with this is the idea that some of the things that we want to be some of the things that we want to be some of the things that we want to be super efficient early on might actually super efficient early on might actually super efficient early on might actually be bad for us as we get Like I'm like I be bad for us as we get Like I'm like I be bad for us as we get Like I'm like I like I think this issue that I that I like I think this issue that I that I like I think this issue that I that I brought up of our mosaics is is a is a brought up of our mosaics is is a is a brought up of our mosaics is is a is a real confounder of everything because real confounder of everything because real confounder of everything because that creates something that is that creates something that is that creates something that is quite hard to defend against, I think, quite hard to defend against, I think, quite hard to defend against, I think, that that that that aging backdrop. Um, that that that that aging backdrop. Um, that that that that aging backdrop. Um, and uh, you know, some of the immune and uh, you know, some of the immune and uh, you know, some of the immune system that is really going to be system that is really going to be system that is really going to be important to just be super reactive important to just be super reactive important to just be super reactive early on may have some, you know, early on may have some, you know, early on may have some, you know, compensatory problems when in faced with compensatory problems when in faced with compensatory problems when in faced with that new reality of a 50-year-old or that new reality of a 50-year-old or that new reality of a 50-year-old or 70-year-old or whatever. It looks quite, 70-year-old or whatever. It looks quite, 70-year-old or whatever. It looks quite, you know, looks quite more complex, but you know, looks quite more complex, but you know, looks quite more complex, but you would have you would have definitely you would have you would have definitely you would have you would have definitely wanted in gene space, you know, in that wanted in gene space, you know, in that wanted in gene space, you know, in that gene space gene space gene space what genes you have to select for, you what genes you have to select for, you what genes you have to select for, you know, an immune system, let's say, or know, an immune system, let's say, or know, an immune system, let's say, or even just your body system that makes even just your body system that makes even just your body system that makes sure that you get to 30, let's say, are sure that you get to 30, let's say, are sure that you get to 30, let's say, are you. And and it's again, you know, you. And and it's again, you know, you. And and it's again, you know, there's That isn't to say that we can't there's That isn't to say that we can't there's That isn't to say that we can't overcome some of those deficiencies if overcome some of those deficiencies if overcome some of those deficiencies if we understand them. we understand them. we understand them. But here's my plug for basic research is But here's my plug for basic research is But here's my plug for basic research is that to understand them we have to ask that to understand them we have to ask that to understand them we have to ask some to some questions that are almost some to some questions that are almost some to some questions that are almost 90% of them are going to be dead ends. 90% of them are going to be dead ends. 90% of them are going to be dead ends. You know, you can hypothesize it's one You know, you can hypothesize it's one You know, you can hypothesize it's one thing, but you got to do the experiment thing, but you got to do the experiment thing, but you got to do the experiment to like eliminate that. And this is one to like eliminate that. And this is one to like eliminate that. And this is one of the things that people I don't think of the things that people I don't think of the things that people I don't think always understand about science is that always understand about science is that always understand about science is that for all the discoveries that, you know, for all the discoveries that, you know, for all the discoveries that, you know, I've made or other people have made I've made or other people have made I've made or other people have made there were hundreds [snorts] and there were hundreds [snorts] and there were hundreds [snorts] and hundreds of like disappointments. hundreds of like disappointments. hundreds of like disappointments. You know, and you'll recognize this You know, and you'll recognize this You know, and you'll recognize this where you you just go home from the lab where you you just go home from the lab where you you just go home from the lab at the end of the day and you've, you at the end of the day and you've, you at the end of the day and you've, you know, you've you've done everything know, you've you've done everything know, you've you've done everything right right right but the answer isn't the one you isn't but the answer isn't the one you isn't but the answer isn't the one you isn't the right one. the right one. the right one. >> Yeah, one control experiment can nuke >> Yeah, one control experiment can nuke >> Yeah, one control experiment can nuke your whole project. your whole project. your whole project. >> Well, there's that. >> Well, there's that. >> Well, there's that. There's obviously that you have to do There's obviously that you have to do There's obviously that you have to do the experiment well and have a control, the experiment well and have a control, the experiment well and have a control, but but the answer just could be not the but but the answer just could be not the but but the answer just could be not the one you thought. And and you know, we one you thought. And and you know, we one you thought. And and you know, we can only imagine stuff can only imagine stuff can only imagine stuff and then try and see if it's true and or and then try and see if it's true and or and then try and see if it's true and or or or more importantly try to prove that or or more importantly try to prove that or or more importantly try to prove that it's not true. That's what the better it's not true. That's what the better it's not true. That's what the better experiments that kind of we we call them experiments that kind of we we call them experiments that kind of we we call them killer experiments, right? The ones that killer experiments, right? The ones that killer experiments, right? The ones that going to kill the kill the idea if going to kill the kill the idea if going to kill the kill the idea if they're wrong. If the idea is wrong, but they're wrong. If the idea is wrong, but they're wrong. If the idea is wrong, but it's killer because it if it's turns out it's killer because it if it's turns out it's killer because it if it's turns out the way you hope it will. the way you hope it will. the way you hope it will. You know, again, when we get to some of You know, again, when we get to some of You know, again, when we get to some of these aging things, you know, there's a these aging things, you know, there's a these aging things, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of intuition that lot of there's a lot of intuition that lot of there's a lot of intuition that we all can put into this whether we're we all can put into this whether we're we all can put into this whether we're like like like professional scientists or at-home professional scientists or at-home professional scientists or at-home scientists. scientists. scientists. But it's really hard to say that But it's really hard to say that But it's really hard to say that intuition, like your idea about how the intuition, like your idea about how the intuition, like your idea about how the way the world should work is in fact the way the world should work is in fact the way the world should work is in fact the way the world does work. way the world does work. way the world does work. You know, that that I You know, that that I You know, that that I I wish that because of your age certain I wish that because of your age certain I wish that because of your age certain things would happen. That's that's a things would happen. That's that's a things would happen. That's that's a that's lovely, but it could be super that's lovely, but it could be super that's lovely, but it could be super maybe the word is baroque, you know, maybe the word is baroque, you know, maybe the word is baroque, you know, like like like >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> it should the whole system could be >> it should the whole system could be >> it should the whole system could be you know, configured in a completely you know, configured in a completely you know, configured in a completely weird way that doesn't really initially weird way that doesn't really initially weird way that doesn't really initially make intuitive sense to us. make intuitive sense to us. make intuitive sense to us. And that's also why some of those And that's also why some of those And that's also why some of those discoveries are so big to us. We're discoveries are so big to us. We're discoveries are so big to us. We're like, "Oh my god, I didn't realize that like, "Oh my god, I didn't realize that like, "Oh my god, I didn't realize that this system that seemed like it might be this system that seemed like it might be this system that seemed like it might be kind of simple is so complicated. The kind of simple is so complicated. The kind of simple is so complicated. The world is so strange." world is so strange." world is so strange." >> Well, when I started in neurobiology, >> Well, when I started in neurobiology, >> Well, when I started in neurobiology, the brain the actually the entire the brain the actually the entire the brain the actually the entire central nervous system was considered an central nervous system was considered an central nervous system was considered an immune privileged organ. immune privileged organ. immune privileged organ. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> There weren't supposed to be immune >> There weren't supposed to be immune >> There weren't supposed to be immune cells there. And thanks to the beautiful cells there. And thanks to the beautiful cells there. And thanks to the beautiful work of Carla Shatz with the major work of Carla Shatz with the major work of Carla Shatz with the major histocompatibility complex work and histocompatibility complex work and histocompatibility complex work and Ben Barres Ben Barres Ben Barres >> Ben Barres >> Ben Barres >> Ben Barres >> and I'm failing to mention all their >> and I'm failing to mention all their >> and I'm failing to mention all their scientific offspring Steven Chala scientific offspring Steven Chala scientific offspring Steven Chala Erdoglu like and on and on. It take the Erdoglu like and on and on. It take the Erdoglu like and on and on. It take the rest of the episode to name all all of rest of the episode to name all all of rest of the episode to name all all of Ben's scientific offspring and Carla's Ben's scientific offspring and Carla's Ben's scientific offspring and Carla's too. too. too. >> And you and being you. >> And you and being you. >> And you and being you. >> Right, I didn't work on those issues, >> Right, I didn't work on those issues, >> Right, I didn't work on those issues, but but but but I was in those labs when it was but I was in those labs when it was but I was in those labs when it was happening. We now know that the immune happening. We now know that the immune happening. We now know that the immune system is actively alive in the central system is actively alive in the central system is actively alive in the central nervous system throughout the whole nervous system throughout the whole nervous system throughout the whole lifespan serving critical roles. lifespan serving critical roles. lifespan serving critical roles. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There are two things that >> There are two things that >> There are two things that well, three really that that are well, three really that that are well, three really that that are somewhat practical questions. I'll start somewhat practical questions. I'll start somewhat practical questions. I'll start with the most basic one. Why is it at a with the most basic one. Why is it at a with the most basic one. Why is it at a mechanistic level that if you miss mechanistic level that if you miss mechanistic level that if you miss a night or two of sleep that your immune a night or two of sleep that your immune a night or two of sleep that your immune system seems so less effective in system seems so less effective in system seems so less effective in fighting off off infections. Do we know fighting off off infections. Do we know fighting off off infections. Do we know what's happening? Is it like you've got what's happening? Is it like you've got what's happening? Is it like you've got so much adenosine which is the sleepy so much adenosine which is the sleepy so much adenosine which is the sleepy molecule and and [clears throat] molecule and and [clears throat] molecule and and [clears throat] like that that adenosine inhibits T-cell like that that adenosine inhibits T-cell like that that adenosine inhibits T-cell function or something? Do we actually function or something? Do we actually function or something? Do we actually know? Because I think all of us are know? Because I think all of us are know? Because I think all of us are familiar with the fact that if we we familiar with the fact that if we we familiar with the fact that if we we don't sleep well or enough for a couple don't sleep well or enough for a couple don't sleep well or enough for a couple of nights, we're much more susceptible of nights, we're much more susceptible of nights, we're much more susceptible to getting sick. to getting sick. to getting sick. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is there a mechanistic understanding of >> Is there a mechanistic understanding of >> Is there a mechanistic understanding of why that's so? why that's so? why that's so? >> I think there are bits and pieces of it. >> I think there are bits and pieces of it. >> I think there are bits and pieces of it. I think I think I think some some really nice work shows that at some some really nice work shows that at some some really nice work shows that at night a few wacky things when you're night a few wacky things when you're night a few wacky things when you're asleep a few what you might have thought asleep a few what you might have thought asleep a few what you might have thought would be wacky things happen and and one would be wacky things happen and and one would be wacky things happen and and one of them is that a lot of your immune of them is that a lot of your immune of them is that a lot of your immune cells clear back to the bone marrow. cells clear back to the bone marrow. cells clear back to the bone marrow. And and your tissues become populated And and your tissues become populated And and your tissues become populated with a bunch of neutrophils that come with a bunch of neutrophils that come with a bunch of neutrophils that come out of the bone marrow and and seem to out of the bone marrow and and seem to out of the bone marrow and and seem to be you know depositing collagen around be you know depositing collagen around be you know depositing collagen around your body and and so there's a lot of your body and and so there's a lot of your body and and so there's a lot of things that I think are reparative about things that I think are reparative about things that I think are reparative about sleep. I thought about this a lot in my sleep. I thought about this a lot in my sleep. I thought about this a lot in my own life as probably you have with sleep own life as probably you have with sleep own life as probably you have with sleep as to one one of the questions of course as to one one of the questions of course as to one one of the questions of course is why do we bother to have sleep? And is why do we bother to have sleep? And is why do we bother to have sleep? And and I guess I can only imagine it's and I guess I can only imagine it's and I guess I can only imagine it's because our you know we've created these because our you know we've created these because our you know we've created these these bodies of ours are so capable and these bodies of ours are so capable and these bodies of ours are so capable and they're so energetically and you know they're so energetically and you know they're so energetically and you know you know um you know um you know um consumptive and they make all these consumptive and they make all these consumptive and they make all these byproducts during the day that that that byproducts during the day that that that byproducts during the day that that that some point you just need a some point you just need a some point you just need a clean up phase and that's that's one clean up phase and that's that's one clean up phase and that's that's one interpretation of sleep is just need to interpretation of sleep is just need to interpretation of sleep is just need to reset. reset. reset. So the immune system is definitely So the immune system is definitely So the immune system is definitely resetting and and you know there's as I resetting and and you know there's as I resetting and and you know there's as I say there's evidence that a lot of the say there's evidence that a lot of the say there's evidence that a lot of the cells go kind of quiescent into the cells go kind of quiescent into the cells go kind of quiescent into the tissues and they they leave you alone tissues and they they leave you alone tissues and they they leave you alone for those reparative processes and for those reparative processes and for those reparative processes and actually allow those actually allow those actually allow those You know in terms of the data on there You know in terms of the data on there You know in terms of the data on there there's a there's a lot of studies that there's a there's a lot of studies that there's a there's a lot of studies that are being done and and I can't say that are being done and and I can't say that are being done and and I can't say that I've come to a a conclusion about that. I've come to a a conclusion about that. I've come to a a conclusion about that. This is this comes in the question of This is this comes in the question of This is this comes in the question of like is it known like is it known like is it known or do I do I not know it or is it does or do I do I not know it or is it does or do I do I not know it or is it does nobody know it? And I'd say this is nobody know it? And I'd say this is nobody know it? And I'd say this is might be one of these areas where about might be one of these areas where about might be one of these areas where about 10 factions of people know it but they 10 factions of people know it but they 10 factions of people know it but they don't agree. don't agree. don't agree. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know so there's variations on things >> You know so there's variations on things >> You know so there's variations on things but I I think the data for example that but I I think the data for example that but I I think the data for example that immune cells dive into the bone marrow immune cells dive into the bone marrow immune cells dive into the bone marrow at night is pretty solid. at night is pretty solid. at night is pretty solid. >> That makes sense. What they're doing and >> That makes sense. What they're doing and >> That makes sense. What they're doing and why that's important in the long sense why that's important in the long sense why that's important in the long sense of like what you're talking about of like what you're talking about of like what you're talking about everything from well but I think it's everything from well but I think it's everything from well but I think it's >> You know the things that happen >> You know the things that happen >> You know the things that happen overnight you're you're definitely your overnight you're you're definitely your overnight you're you're definitely your cognition improves. Is that immune or is cognition improves. Is that immune or is cognition improves. Is that immune or is that neuronal or both? I think it's that neuronal or both? I think it's that neuronal or both? I think it's both. both. both. >> Something in the lymph plumbing immune >> Something in the lymph plumbing immune >> Something in the lymph plumbing immune system. One thing that's just striking system. One thing that's just striking system. One thing that's just striking like that is undeniable is probably the like that is undeniable is probably the like that is undeniable is probably the best way to put it is best way to put it is best way to put it is everybody has bags under their eyes and everybody has bags under their eyes and everybody has bags under their eyes and looks like when they are sleep looks like when they are sleep looks like when they are sleep deprived. They sleep for a night or two deprived. They sleep for a night or two deprived. They sleep for a night or two and it and it and it goes away. That's clearly accumulation goes away. That's clearly accumulation goes away. That's clearly accumulation of lymph. We we actually know that. of lymph. We we actually know that. of lymph. We we actually know that. That's just lymph fluid that's not being That's just lymph fluid that's not being That's just lymph fluid that's not being cleared, and it might not even be the cleared, and it might not even be the cleared, and it might not even be the brain's glymphatic clearance system. brain's glymphatic clearance system. brain's glymphatic clearance system. It's just There's a bunch of lymph It's just There's a bunch of lymph It's just There's a bunch of lymph pooling under your eyes. That's why you pooling under your eyes. That's why you pooling under your eyes. That's why you look like look like look like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then you sleep for two nights >> And then you sleep for two nights >> And then you sleep for two nights well, and then you look better again. well, and then you look better again. well, and then you look better again. And the eyes get glassy. We know that And the eyes get glassy. We know that And the eyes get glassy. We know that the eyes get glassy when we're sleep the eyes get glassy when we're sleep the eyes get glassy when we're sleep deprived. That's also a deprived. That's also a deprived. That's also a lymphatic clearance issue. This is well lymphatic clearance issue. This is well lymphatic clearance issue. This is well established. Like so there's some things established. Like so there's some things established. Like so there's some things that are just like plumbing works better that are just like plumbing works better that are just like plumbing works better when we sleep and get up again. There's when we sleep and get up again. There's when we sleep and get up again. There's something literally about lying down and something literally about lying down and something literally about lying down and getting up. getting up. getting up. But that to me can't explain the the But that to me can't explain the the But that to me can't explain the the immune immune immune thing entirely because like the thing entirely because like the thing entirely because like the lymphatic system is like lymphatic system is like lymphatic system is like among other things, you know, immune among other things, you know, immune among other things, you know, immune surveillance, but surveillance, but surveillance, but I mean, one night's lou- lousy sleep and I mean, one night's lou- lousy sleep and I mean, one night's lou- lousy sleep and the person coughing across the room gets the person coughing across the room gets the person coughing across the room gets you sick often. you sick often. you sick often. But when you're well rested, you But when you're well rested, you But when you're well rested, you actually feel this robustness like, man, actually feel this robustness like, man, actually feel this robustness like, man, like, okay, I'm going to might wash my like, okay, I'm going to might wash my like, okay, I'm going to might wash my hands or just kind of avoid them, and hands or just kind of avoid them, and hands or just kind of avoid them, and you're good. you're good. you're good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it's it's I mean, it's an an >> So it's it's I mean, it's an an >> So it's it's I mean, it's an an incredible effect one way or the other. incredible effect one way or the other. incredible effect one way or the other. >> Again, I don't know the degree to which >> Again, I don't know the degree to which >> Again, I don't know the degree to which we can nail down, you know, which which we can nail down, you know, which which we can nail down, you know, which which part of things that are happening is part of things that are happening is part of things that are happening is which. I always like the story that that which. I always like the story that that which. I always like the story that that the There's macrophages, immune cells, the There's macrophages, immune cells, the There's macrophages, immune cells, in your eye that are basically clearing in your eye that are basically clearing in your eye that are basically clearing the clearing the lens. the clearing the lens. the clearing the lens. You know, so there's there's all these You know, so there's there's all these You know, so there's there's all these like like like places where it's doing little clean up places where it's doing little clean up places where it's doing little clean up that you can imagine that if the the that you can imagine that if the the that you can imagine that if the the thing it's trying to get rid of is thing it's trying to get rid of is thing it's trying to get rid of is granularity, that that you need to have granularity, that that you need to have granularity, that that you need to have sleep where you just aren't making more sleep where you just aren't making more sleep where you just aren't making more granularity so that it can granularity so that it can granularity so that it can you know, it's sort of like when you you know, it's sort of like when you you know, it's sort of like when you wash your car windshield, you do it wash your car windshield, you do it wash your car windshield, you do it completely at that point. And you But completely at that point. And you But completely at that point. And you But you can't be driving with flies hitting you can't be driving with flies hitting you can't be driving with flies hitting you. That would would right? you. That would would right? you. That would would right? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Or you you'll never clear >> Or you you'll never clear >> Or you you'll never clear You know, so I think there's certain You know, so I think there's certain You know, so I think there's certain elements of some of these clean up elements of some of these clean up elements of some of these clean up processes that happen best when you're processes that happen best when you're processes that happen best when you're not getting things, you know, you know, not getting things, you know, you know, not getting things, you know, you know, dirty or again, I think a lot of what dirty or again, I think a lot of what dirty or again, I think a lot of what we're talking about is byproducts of our we're talking about is byproducts of our we're talking about is byproducts of our energetics that leave, you know, some energetics that leave, you know, some energetics that leave, you know, some damage behind it. I think we just use a damage behind it. I think we just use a damage behind it. I think we just use a lot of ATP and we do a lot of stuff as lot of ATP and we do a lot of stuff as lot of ATP and we do a lot of stuff as our body's in the in the sleep is this our body's in the in the sleep is this our body's in the in the sleep is this time where you cannot be you know you time where you cannot be you know you time where you cannot be you know you know producing more of that and get know producing more of that and get know producing more of that and get ahead of the curve on cleaning things up ahead of the curve on cleaning things up ahead of the curve on cleaning things up a bit. I'm like pulling into a gas a bit. I'm like pulling into a gas a bit. I'm like pulling into a gas station clean off your windshield. station clean off your windshield. station clean off your windshield. >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1. acknowledge our sponsor AG1. acknowledge our sponsor AG1. I'm excited to share the AG1 has just I'm excited to share the AG1 has just I'm excited to share the AG1 has just launched their newest formulation AG1 launched their newest formulation AG1 launched their newest formulation AG1 Pro. AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed Pro. AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed Pro. 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Q10 with your first AG1 subscription. >> This thymus thing is really intriguing >> This thymus thing is really intriguing >> This thymus thing is really intriguing and I know a lot of people who um and I know a lot of people who um and I know a lot of people who um opted to bank their child's umbilical opted to bank their child's umbilical opted to bank their child's umbilical cord in the hopes that the stem cells cord in the hopes that the stem cells cord in the hopes that the stem cells from the umbilical cord will someday be from the umbilical cord will someday be from the umbilical cord will someday be useful. useful. useful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How invasive is it and or should we be >> How invasive is it and or should we be >> How invasive is it and or should we be uh uh uh banking thymic cells? banking thymic cells? banking thymic cells? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh because these seem like incredibly >> Uh because these seem like incredibly >> Uh because these seem like incredibly valuable cells for their ability to valuable cells for their ability to valuable cells for their ability to immune surveil and create kind of the immune surveil and create kind of the immune surveil and create kind of the perfect situation using our own perfect situation using our own perfect situation using our own endogenous T cells to battle infections. endogenous T cells to battle infections. endogenous T cells to battle infections. I mean I kind of wish I I a little like I mean I kind of wish I I a little like I mean I kind of wish I I a little like chunk of my thymus chunk of my thymus chunk of my thymus >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> um in a minus 80 freezer someplace so >> um in a minus 80 freezer someplace so >> um in a minus 80 freezer someplace so that when I'm 85 years old that when I'm 85 years old that when I'm 85 years old >> You might be able to exploit >> You might be able to exploit >> You might be able to exploit >> um I might be able to exploit that. >> um I might be able to exploit that. >> um I might be able to exploit that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I'll I'll say that the umbilical Well, I'll I'll say that the umbilical Well, I'll I'll say that the umbilical cord one is is pretty straightforward. cord one is is pretty straightforward. cord one is is pretty straightforward. It's you know, the umbilical cord is It's you know, the umbilical cord is It's you know, the umbilical cord is being essentially discarded anyway. being essentially discarded anyway. being essentially discarded anyway. And it contains a lot of as you know, And it contains a lot of as you know, And it contains a lot of as you know, bone marrow stem cells that um the bone marrow stem cells that um the bone marrow stem cells that um the utility of those is a little different utility of those is a little different utility of those is a little different than the thymus. The utility of of than the thymus. The utility of of than the thymus. The utility of of banking that material and banking just banking that material and banking just banking that material and banking just means you put it into a vial small means you put it into a vial small means you put it into a vial small little you know, small little vial with little you know, small little vial with little you know, small little vial with a lot of media and you set it in a very a lot of media and you set it in a very a lot of media and you set it in a very very cold environment for whenever you very cold environment for whenever you very cold environment for whenever you might need it. might need it. might need it. Is that if you need to have a bone Is that if you need to have a bone Is that if you need to have a bone marrow transplant. So for example, if marrow transplant. So for example, if marrow transplant. So for example, if you have a tumor of the bone marrow you have a tumor of the bone marrow you have a tumor of the bone marrow system system system you can subject yourself to radiation you can subject yourself to radiation you can subject yourself to radiation and wipe out all that tumor cells, but and wipe out all that tumor cells, but and wipe out all that tumor cells, but you'll wipe out all the stem cells. But you'll wipe out all the stem cells. But you'll wipe out all the stem cells. But if you get this vial here, you've got a if you get this vial here, you've got a if you get this vial here, you've got a little replacement. little replacement. little replacement. >> Has that ever been done successfully? >> Has that ever been done successfully? >> Has that ever been done successfully? >> Yeah, yeah, you can do >> Yeah, yeah, you can do >> Yeah, yeah, you can do >> So are there are there are there kids >> So are there are there are there kids >> So are there are there are there kids are there kids or adults that are alive are there kids or adults that are alive are there kids or adults that are alive today because they banked their today because they banked their today because they banked their umbilical cord? umbilical cord? umbilical cord? >> But certainly companies sell access to >> But certainly companies sell access to >> But certainly companies sell access to that. that. that. >> has to pay to keep the freezers on >> has to pay to keep the freezers on >> has to pay to keep the freezers on backup generators and things like that. backup generators and things like that. backup generators and things like that. So people invest time and money into So people invest time and money into So people invest time and money into this idea. this idea. this idea. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is is there a >> Is is there a >> Is is there a walking, talking, breathing human who walking, talking, breathing human who walking, talking, breathing human who would be otherwise dead, would otherwise would be otherwise dead, would otherwise would be otherwise dead, would otherwise be dead, excuse me, because they they be dead, excuse me, because they they be dead, excuse me, because they they paid money to bank their their umbilical paid money to bank their their umbilical paid money to bank their their umbilical cord? cord? cord? >> It's a really good question. I don't >> It's a really good question. I don't >> It's a really good question. I don't know the answer to that question. know the answer to that question. know the answer to that question. >> I guess the parents paid. >> I guess the parents paid. >> I guess the parents paid. >> I can tell you and this will be just >> I can tell you and this will be just >> I can tell you and this will be just like this is this is the depths of to like this is this is the depths of to like this is this is the depths of to which you're you're describing uh which you're you're describing uh which you're you're describing uh Dave Feldtman injecting a you know, a Dave Feldtman injecting a you know, a Dave Feldtman injecting a you know, a mouse is that in mice this is true. That mouse is that in mice this is true. That mouse is that in mice this is true. That if you take you know, bone marrow stem if you take you know, bone marrow stem if you take you know, bone marrow stem cells you can reconstitute a mouse with cells you can reconstitute a mouse with cells you can reconstitute a mouse with a blood blood cancer and you can do a blood blood cancer and you can do a blood blood cancer and you can do that. that. that. I'm sure you can do it in humans too. I I'm sure you can do it in humans too. I I'm sure you can do it in humans too. I have zero doubt that it also works. I have zero doubt that it also works. I have zero doubt that it also works. I don't know whether those companies have don't know whether those companies have don't know whether those companies have done that. It's that's just actually done that. It's that's just actually done that. It's that's just actually something where I something where I something where I >> Cuz this this is offered in mass now. >> Cuz this this is offered in mass now. >> Cuz this this is offered in mass now. >> Yeah. Yeah, when when it is >> Yeah. Yeah, when when it is >> Yeah. Yeah, when when it is >> When a baby is born they say, "Do you >> When a baby is born they say, "Do you >> When a baby is born they say, "Do you want to Do you want to keep the want to Do you want to keep the want to Do you want to keep the umbilical cord?" umbilical cord?" umbilical cord?" >> Honestly, honestly, I would do it >> Honestly, honestly, I would do it >> Honestly, honestly, I would do it because it's one of those situations because it's one of those situations because it's one of those situations where if it's not too exp- well, I don't where if it's not too exp- well, I don't where if it's not too exp- well, I don't know if it you know, depends on your know if it you know, depends on your know if it you know, depends on your your how much money you have to spend your how much money you have to spend your how much money you have to spend because the the cost is within within because the the cost is within within because the the cost is within within the noise, yeah. the noise, yeah. the noise, yeah. So, it's one of those ones where you So, it's one of those ones where you So, it's one of those ones where you particularly if you when you have kids, particularly if you when you have kids, particularly if you when you have kids, there's this whole aspect of like I there's this whole aspect of like I there's this whole aspect of like I would like to protect them from anything would like to protect them from anything would like to protect them from anything that could come their way and and and that could come their way and and and that could come their way and and and I think this would if if they happen to I think this would if if they happen to I think this would if if they happen to have a a childhood leukemia, this would have a a childhood leukemia, this would have a a childhood leukemia, this would this would cure it. this would cure it. this would cure it. >> Which is an incredible statement if you >> Which is an incredible statement if you >> Which is an incredible statement if you think about it, even if it hasn't been think about it, even if it hasn't been think about it, even if it hasn't been done successfully yet. You didn't say it done successfully yet. You didn't say it done successfully yet. You didn't say it might be able to lead to a cure might be able to lead to a cure might be able to lead to a cure >> No, it would. >> No, it would. >> No, it would. >> by virtue of a new technology. You said >> by virtue of a new technology. You said >> by virtue of a new technology. You said it would cure it. it would cure it. it would cure it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's a big statement. >> I mean, that's a big statement. >> I mean, that's a big statement. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You can tell I'm ratcheting up from like >> You can tell I'm ratcheting up from like >> You can tell I'm ratcheting up from like sleep to banking thymus and umbilical sleep to banking thymus and umbilical sleep to banking thymus and umbilical cord. Now, I'm going to go to the sort cord. Now, I'm going to go to the sort cord. Now, I'm going to go to the sort of next level, which is of next level, which is of next level, which is not just in the Bay Area. A lot of not just in the Bay Area. A lot of not just in the Bay Area. A lot of people people people however starting to think about oh, however starting to think about oh, however starting to think about oh, maybe I make some induced pluripotent maybe I make some induced pluripotent maybe I make some induced pluripotent stem cells from a fibroblast from one of stem cells from a fibroblast from one of stem cells from a fibroblast from one of my skin cells, put the so-called my skin cells, put the so-called my skin cells, put the so-called Yamanaka factors on, revert that to Yamanaka factors on, revert that to Yamanaka factors on, revert that to stemness and then I might be able to stemness and then I might be able to stemness and then I might be able to grow a new pancreas or study my grow a new pancreas or study my grow a new pancreas or study my you know, whatever organs in the you know, whatever organs in the you know, whatever organs in the so-called organoids, whatever they're so-called organoids, whatever they're so-called organoids, whatever they're referred to. referred to. referred to. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But I learned today from you >> But I learned today from you >> But I learned today from you that if I take that fibroblast now, that that if I take that fibroblast now, that that if I take that fibroblast now, that fibroblast might not be completely fibroblast might not be completely fibroblast might not be completely Andrew Huberman as I know him to be Andrew Huberman as I know him to be Andrew Huberman as I know him to be genetically. [clears throat] genetically. [clears throat] genetically. [clears throat] It's actually could have some It's actually could have some It's actually could have some mutations. mutations. mutations. That seems important to compare against That seems important to compare against That seems important to compare against a sort of a sort of a sort of a standard cell. I don't want to grow a standard cell. I don't want to grow a standard cell. I don't want to grow organ- organoids from a organ- organoids from a organ- organoids from a from an IPS from an IPS from an IPS environment that environment that environment that carries mutations. That that seems like carries mutations. That that seems like carries mutations. That that seems like a bad idea. a bad idea. a bad idea. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because then anything I would I'm not >> Because then anything I would I'm not >> Because then anything I would I'm not talking about transplanting in those talking about transplanting in those talking about transplanting in those organoids. I'm talking about studying organoids. I'm talking about studying organoids. I'm talking about studying them, thinking I'm getting information them, thinking I'm getting information them, thinking I'm getting information about them. People are doing this and about them. People are doing this and about them. People are doing this and thinking oh, I'm thinking oh, I'm thinking oh, I'm seeing what drugs are effective in seeing what drugs are effective in seeing what drugs are effective in treating treating treating you know, a liver disease [snorts] or a you know, a liver disease [snorts] or a you know, a liver disease [snorts] or a heart disease, but if those are mutant heart disease, but if those are mutant heart disease, but if those are mutant cells, that's a lousy experiment. cells, that's a lousy experiment. cells, that's a lousy experiment. >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't say they're >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't say they're >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't say they're likely to be mutant cells for that likely to be mutant cells for that likely to be mutant cells for that reason. I think the biggest question reason. I think the biggest question reason. I think the biggest question would be whether your induction of them would be whether your induction of them would be whether your induction of them to become the organ that you you know to become the organ that you you know to become the organ that you you know want was successful was replicating the want was successful was replicating the want was successful was replicating the actual organ itself. So, you're you're actual organ itself. So, you're you're actual organ itself. So, you're you're referencing these things called referencing these things called referencing these things called organoids, which are organoids, which are organoids, which are collections of cells from a collections of cells from a collections of cells from a body of a human, for example, that are body of a human, for example, that are body of a human, for example, that are are induced with various different are induced with various different are induced with various different factors to grow to resemble maybe an factors to grow to resemble maybe an factors to grow to resemble maybe an organ a particular organ. organ a particular organ. organ a particular organ. You know, I think all of us have little You know, I think all of us have little You know, I think all of us have little doubt in this this is the source of the doubt in this this is the source of the doubt in this this is the source of the California Institute for Regenerative California Institute for Regenerative California Institute for Regenerative Medicine that making stem cells that can Medicine that making stem cells that can Medicine that making stem cells that can become particular organs will at someday become particular organs will at someday become particular organs will at someday happen. happen. happen. We will figure all these things out. We will figure all these things out. We will figure all these things out. I I I believe in science. I believe in I I I believe in science. I believe in I I I believe in science. I believe in our ability to sort of like test, learn, our ability to sort of like test, learn, our ability to sort of like test, learn, test, learn, test, learn. test, learn, test, learn. test, learn, test, learn. How soon, you know, that becomes useful How soon, you know, that becomes useful How soon, you know, that becomes useful is a bigger question. If you take out is a bigger question. If you take out is a bigger question. If you take out your fibroblast today, your fibroblast today, your fibroblast today, that might only cure you someday in the that might only cure you someday in the that might only cure you someday in the future. And meanwhile, you may die of future. And meanwhile, you may die of future. And meanwhile, you may die of that thing that you wish you had the that thing that you wish you had the that thing that you wish you had the stem cells in it because it's not yet stem cells in it because it's not yet stem cells in it because it's not yet ready. The technology and the ready. The technology and the ready. The technology and the understanding isn't yet ready. understanding isn't yet ready. understanding isn't yet ready. But the other problem with those is you But the other problem with those is you But the other problem with those is you probably will die from something else. probably will die from something else. probably will die from something else. You get hit by a car, you know. You get hit by a car, you know. You get hit by a car, you know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It won't help you that you've got those >> It won't help you that you've got those >> It won't help you that you've got those things back. So, I think in some of things back. So, I think in some of things back. So, I think in some of these cases like overemphasizing, this these cases like overemphasizing, this these cases like overemphasizing, this might be your point about the storage of might be your point about the storage of might be your point about the storage of of umbilical cords, is like at what of umbilical cords, is like at what of umbilical cords, is like at what point is that a high odds situation point is that a high odds situation point is that a high odds situation where you your kid needs it and you have where you your kid needs it and you have where you your kid needs it and you have it stored away versus all the other it stored away versus all the other it stored away versus all the other things fates that can befall us as things fates that can befall us as things fates that can befall us as humans humans humans that have nothing to do with it, you that have nothing to do with it, you that have nothing to do with it, you know, you know, stem cells from the bone know, you know, stem cells from the bone know, you know, stem cells from the bone marrow. marrow. marrow. And and to me that's that's a point And and to me that's that's a point And and to me that's that's a point where you could spend your life worrying where you could spend your life worrying where you could spend your life worrying about how you're going to die. about how you're going to die. about how you're going to die. And and maybe that's not a good way to And and maybe that's not a good way to And and maybe that's not a good way to live. live. live. >> Well, certainly not how I live. Right >> Well, certainly not how I live. Right >> Well, certainly not how I live. Right now, there's a lot of now, there's a lot of now, there's a lot of kind of excitement and attention around kind of excitement and attention around kind of excitement and attention around so-called longevity and so-called longevity and so-called longevity and at the extremes of never dying or living at the extremes of never dying or living at the extremes of never dying or living to be 120, which seems to be the to be 120, which seems to be the to be 120, which seems to be the perhaps the genetic limit currently. perhaps the genetic limit currently. perhaps the genetic limit currently. It's not my fascination. I'm more It's not my fascination. I'm more It's not my fascination. I'm more interested in living in the years I've interested in living in the years I've interested in living in the years I've got as it seems you all do. got as it seems you all do. got as it seems you all do. Vital, healthy, you know, being able to Vital, healthy, you know, being able to Vital, healthy, you know, being able to move, sense, and and think. move, sense, and and think. move, sense, and and think. [clears throat] Seems like and remember, [clears throat] Seems like and remember, [clears throat] Seems like and remember, you know, those seem like the critical you know, those seem like the critical you know, those seem like the critical ones. ones. ones. >> You know, you know, a month ago you >> You know, you know, a month ago you >> You know, you know, a month ago you mentioned the concept of like removing a mentioned the concept of like removing a mentioned the concept of like removing a bit of thymus and I I think that the bit of thymus and I I think that the bit of thymus and I I think that the issues with for me with that are are, issues with for me with that are are, issues with for me with that are are, you know, it's an invasive surgery and you know, it's an invasive surgery and you know, it's an invasive surgery and like if you were to take out thymus, it like if you were to take out thymus, it like if you were to take out thymus, it would It's not clear to me that it's the would It's not clear to me that it's the would It's not clear to me that it's the thymus that you need. You might be able thymus that you need. You might be able thymus that you need. You might be able to I mean, the fact you can make thymic to I mean, the fact you can make thymic to I mean, the fact you can make thymic the the So, the the thymus is both the the the So, the the thymus is both the the the So, the the thymus is both the cells that come into it from the bone cells that come into it from the bone cells that come into it from the bone marrow. So, it as an organ it has marrow. So, it as an organ it has marrow. So, it as an organ it has contents. contents. contents. But, its structure are some thymic But, its structure are some thymic But, its structure are some thymic epithelial cells that a kind of cell epithelial cells that a kind of cell epithelial cells that a kind of cell that make a matrix that all those cells that make a matrix that all those cells that make a matrix that all those cells live in and they get educated in. live in and they get educated in. live in and they get educated in. And um there's definitely, you know, And um there's definitely, you know, And um there's definitely, you know, pretty strong work that says that you pretty strong work that says that you pretty strong work that says that you can create sort of a thymic epithelium can create sort of a thymic epithelium can create sort of a thymic epithelium that will do some of this work. But, that will do some of this work. But, that will do some of this work. But, whether, you know, whether, you know, whether, you know, a guy at home could a guy at home could a guy at home could >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> could hold on to the thymic cells and we >> could hold on to the thymic cells and we >> could hold on to the thymic cells and we would be in a position to do something would be in a position to do something would be in a position to do something important for longevity in our lifetime, important for longevity in our lifetime, important for longevity in our lifetime, I don't know. I I don't know. I I don't know. I honestly don't know. Some things in my honestly don't know. Some things in my honestly don't know. Some things in my career, I've seen things happen really career, I've seen things happen really career, I've seen things happen really fast. So fast that almost like you fast. So fast that almost like you fast. So fast that almost like you didn't realize that you're doing it. didn't realize that you're doing it. didn't realize that you're doing it. You're like, "Oh my god, we've got a You're like, "Oh my god, we've got a You're like, "Oh my god, we've got a cure for cancer. That's great. Okay, cure for cancer. That's great. Okay, cure for cancer. That's great. Okay, let's go on and do the next thing." Two let's go on and do the next thing." Two let's go on and do the next thing." Two things that So, you're like you know, things that So, you're like you know, things that So, you're like you know, you know, the California Institute for you know, the California Institute for you know, the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine, they we thought Regenerative Medicine, they we thought Regenerative Medicine, they we thought that we would have some stem cell that we would have some stem cell that we would have some stem cell therapies, you know, within the seven or therapies, you know, within the seven or therapies, you know, within the seven or eight year window of that bond, first eight year window of that bond, first eight year window of that bond, first bond, and then there's a second bond. We bond, and then there's a second bond. We bond, and then there's a second bond. We didn't really get very many out of that. didn't really get very many out of that. didn't really get very many out of that. We learned a lot and that is the risk We learned a lot and that is the risk We learned a lot and that is the risk about stem cell biology. About stem cell about stem cell biology. About stem cell about stem cell biology. About stem cell about biology and that is the risk we about biology and that is the risk we about biology and that is the risk we take when we do research. You know, take when we do research. You know, take when we do research. You know, we're talking a moment ago about how we're talking a moment ago about how we're talking a moment ago about how many times you might be in a lab many times you might be in a lab many times you might be in a lab spending hundreds of hours and not spending hundreds of hours and not spending hundreds of hours and not getting anything that you understand and getting anything that you understand and getting anything that you understand and then in one hour and you understand then in one hour and you understand then in one hour and you understand everything because, you know, so all of everything because, you know, so all of everything because, you know, so all of a sudden all those failures make us make a sudden all those failures make us make a sudden all those failures make us make sense. I think when we get into some of sense. I think when we get into some of sense. I think when we get into some of the stem cell biology, it's it's the stem cell biology, it's it's the stem cell biology, it's it's intuitive and it's almost certainly true intuitive and it's almost certainly true intuitive and it's almost certainly true that we will have some of these things. that we will have some of these things. that we will have some of these things. Whether we will have them in time for Whether we will have them in time for Whether we will have them in time for like you or me, like you or me, like you or me, I I don't know. I I don't know. I I don't know. I just don't know [clears throat] and I I just don't know [clears throat] and I I just don't know [clears throat] and I I think that's true of a lot of these I think that's true of a lot of these I think that's true of a lot of these things. things. things. Say, "Oh, you know, we we seem to be Say, "Oh, you know, we we seem to be Say, "Oh, you know, we we seem to be right on the cusp right now, for right on the cusp right now, for right on the cusp right now, for example, in in cancer therapy. We've example, in in cancer therapy. We've example, in in cancer therapy. We've been on the cusp for 10 or 15 years of been on the cusp for 10 or 15 years of been on the cusp for 10 or 15 years of these things called CAR-Ts." and Alex these things called CAR-Ts." and Alex these things called CAR-Ts." and Alex will told you about these where you will told you about these where you will told you about these where you engineer your T cells and you get you engineer your T cells and you get you engineer your T cells and you get you give them special receptors that can get give them special receptors that can get give them special receptors that can get them to go into to eliminate tumors. them to go into to eliminate tumors. them to go into to eliminate tumors. But for whatever reason, they haven't But for whatever reason, they haven't But for whatever reason, they haven't worked in patients. They haven't worked. worked in patients. They haven't worked. worked in patients. They haven't worked. They haven't worked. They haven't They haven't worked. They haven't They haven't worked. They haven't worked. And T cell the immune system worked. And T cell the immune system worked. And T cell the immune system gets turned off. These cells don't make gets turned off. These cells don't make gets turned off. These cells don't make it. They don't fail they fail to it. They don't fail they fail to it. They don't fail they fail to eliminate the tumor. eliminate the tumor. eliminate the tumor. We will figure that out. But we've been We will figure that out. But we've been We will figure that out. But we've been thinking we've figured it out, you know, thinking we've figured it out, you know, thinking we've figured it out, you know, for the first 5 or 10 years. And it's for the first 5 or 10 years. And it's for the first 5 or 10 years. And it's it's you know, that gets frustrating. it's you know, that gets frustrating. it's you know, that gets frustrating. And I think it gets frustrating for And I think it gets frustrating for And I think it gets frustrating for people that are like waiting for it to people that are like waiting for it to people that are like waiting for it to um on the outside like, "Why can't you um on the outside like, "Why can't you um on the outside like, "Why can't you solve this?" And you're like, "Well, solve this?" And you're like, "Well, solve this?" And you're like, "Well, because the universe isn't always because the universe isn't always because the universe isn't always configured how we think it is." And configured how we think it is." And configured how we think it is." And that's discovery. That's the problem of that's discovery. That's the problem of that's discovery. That's the problem of discovery. If we knew what we needed to discovery. If we knew what we needed to discovery. If we knew what we needed to do, we would engineer it and it would do, we would engineer it and it would do, we would engineer it and it would work. work. work. >> Yeah. I um This is an important >> Yeah. I um This is an important >> Yeah. I um This is an important discussion that we haven't spent enough discussion that we haven't spent enough discussion that we haven't spent enough time on in this podcast that I think is time on in this podcast that I think is time on in this podcast that I think is a very important for people to hear. And a very important for people to hear. And a very important for people to hear. And I have some thoughts about it, but I I'd I have some thoughts about it, but I I'd I have some thoughts about it, but I I'd love for any disagreements. I'm not love for any disagreements. I'm not love for any disagreements. I'm not looking for looking for looking for um just agreements, but yeah. um just agreements, but yeah. um just agreements, but yeah. So, my observation from a couple decades So, my observation from a couple decades So, my observation from a couple decades or more doing science and then mainly or more doing science and then mainly or more doing science and then mainly shifting to podcasting, but shifting to podcasting, but shifting to podcasting, but this is what I do. I talk with great this is what I do. I talk with great this is what I do. I talk with great scientists. So, that's the podcast. scientists. So, that's the podcast. scientists. So, that's the podcast. [clears throat] I'm very immersed in [clears throat] I'm very immersed in [clears throat] I'm very immersed in like what's happening right at the like what's happening right at the like what's happening right at the cutting edge and um because of great cutting edge and um because of great cutting edge and um because of great guests like you. You know, my my sense guests like you. You know, my my sense guests like you. You know, my my sense is that in every field there's been like is that in every field there's been like is that in every field there's been like this kind of steady pressure like water this kind of steady pressure like water this kind of steady pressure like water on rock pressure. Like, "Okay, we're on rock pressure. Like, "Okay, we're on rock pressure. Like, "Okay, we're going to understand like salamanders going to understand like salamanders going to understand like salamanders regenerate. Wouldn't it be great if we regenerate. Wouldn't it be great if we regenerate. Wouldn't it be great if we could do that, too? Cut off a limb, it could do that, too? Cut off a limb, it could do that, too? Cut off a limb, it could grow back." Okay, amazing. I think could grow back." Okay, amazing. I think could grow back." Okay, amazing. I think it's like Elly Tanaka's work has just it's like Elly Tanaka's work has just it's like Elly Tanaka's work has just shown that. You're like, "Wow, this shown that. You're like, "Wow, this shown that. You're like, "Wow, this would be incredible for amputees and would be incredible for amputees and would be incredible for amputees and brain regeneration and brain regeneration and brain regeneration and >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But then it never really transfers. Or >> But then it never really transfers. Or >> But then it never really transfers. Or like, "Oh, we're going to figure out like, "Oh, we're going to figure out like, "Oh, we're going to figure out ways to get genes into cells. We're ways to get genes into cells. We're ways to get genes into cells. We're going to electroporate liposomes. We're going to electroporate liposomes. We're going to electroporate liposomes. We're going to use a calcium phosphate like going to use a calcium phosphate like going to use a calcium phosphate like great research tools. Tons of things great research tools. Tons of things great research tools. Tons of things happen. Then it's like, "We're going to happen. Then it's like, "We're going to happen. Then it's like, "We're going to modify genes. Zinc finger nuclease." All modify genes. Zinc finger nuclease." All modify genes. Zinc finger nuclease." All this Okay, CRISPR, boom. And one thing this Okay, CRISPR, boom. And one thing this Okay, CRISPR, boom. And one thing just breaks through and goes so much just breaks through and goes so much just breaks through and goes so much further. And even though, you know, the further. And even though, you know, the further. And even though, you know, the ethics are questionable, there are ethics are questionable, there are ethics are questionable, there are babies that have babies that have babies that have deliberately induced uh gene alterations deliberately induced uh gene alterations deliberately induced uh gene alterations for with CRISPR, a sickle cell anemia for with CRISPR, a sickle cell anemia for with CRISPR, a sickle cell anemia treatments as well. It's a more treatments as well. It's a more treatments as well. It's a more benevolent example, but benevolent example, but benevolent example, but then the person who went rogue and just then the person who went rogue and just then the person who went rogue and just kind of did this in humans in China. But kind of did this in humans in China. But kind of did this in humans in China. But CRISPR just kind of broke through it CRISPR just kind of broke through it CRISPR just kind of broke through it all. all. all. This The excitement about stem cells led This The excitement about stem cells led This The excitement about stem cells led to like yeah, I mean even initiatives at to like yeah, I mean even initiatives at to like yeah, I mean even initiatives at the legislative level and like all these the legislative level and like all these the legislative level and like all these labs working on things. And then as you labs working on things. And then as you labs working on things. And then as you said, it's kind of like said, it's kind of like said, it's kind of like run up against the dam. run up against the dam. run up against the dam. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I feel like in 10 years >> But I feel like in 10 years >> But I feel like in 10 years some or all of that information will be some or all of that information will be some or all of that information will be extremely relevant when one thing will extremely relevant when one thing will extremely relevant when one thing will just like leap out of bacteria or like just like leap out of bacteria or like just like leap out of bacteria or like grasshoppers, no pun intended with the grasshoppers, no pun intended with the grasshoppers, no pun intended with the grasshoppers. But the the last example grasshoppers. But the the last example grasshoppers. But the the last example would be, you know, for years it was would be, you know, for years it was would be, you know, for years it was like the country's getting fatter, the like the country's getting fatter, the like the country's getting fatter, the the country's getting obese. What are we the country's getting obese. What are we the country's getting obese. What are we going to do? Do calories matter? Of going to do? Do calories matter? Of going to do? Do calories matter? Of course calories matter. This kind of course calories matter. This kind of course calories matter. This kind of thing energy, you know, laws of thing energy, you know, laws of thing energy, you know, laws of thermodynamics still apply. And then all thermodynamics still apply. And then all thermodynamics still apply. And then all of a sudden of a sudden of a sudden this freaking Gila monster biologist this freaking Gila monster biologist this freaking Gila monster biologist >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> tells people what they already knew >> tells people what they already knew >> tells people what they already knew because the GLP-1s were already being because the GLP-1s were already being because the GLP-1s were already being used as a drug, just not at used as a drug, just not at used as a drug, just not at significantly high levels. And all of a significantly high levels. And all of a significantly high levels. And all of a sudden we have a sudden we have a sudden we have a imperfect, but very important more or imperfect, but very important more or imperfect, but very important more or less less less dare I say cure dare I say cure dare I say cure >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> for obesity. It's got problems, there's >> for obesity. It's got problems, there's >> for obesity. It's got problems, there's muscle wasting, you know, there could be muscle wasting, you know, there could be muscle wasting, you know, there could be other issues, apathy, etc. I'm not I'm other issues, apathy, etc. I'm not I'm other issues, apathy, etc. I'm not I'm not trying to discount any of that. But not trying to discount any of that. But not trying to discount any of that. But I feel like that's the way science I feel like that's the way science I feel like that's the way science works. It's like steady pressure, steady works. It's like steady pressure, steady works. It's like steady pressure, steady pressure, steady pressure, frustration, pressure, steady pressure, frustration, pressure, steady pressure, frustration, and then something comes out of nowhere. and then something comes out of nowhere. and then something comes out of nowhere. And it almost seems prerequisite to have And it almost seems prerequisite to have And it almost seems prerequisite to have all those years of frustration and all those years of frustration and all those years of frustration and failure. failure. failure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then and you say, "Well, couldn't we >> And then and you say, "Well, couldn't we >> And then and you say, "Well, couldn't we have just gotten CRISPR first or the have just gotten CRISPR first or the have just gotten CRISPR first or the GLP-1s first? Like why did we go through GLP-1s first? Like why did we go through GLP-1s first? Like why did we go through all these, you know, billions of dollars all these, you know, billions of dollars all these, you know, billions of dollars of expenditures, time, energy?" of expenditures, time, energy?" of expenditures, time, energy?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. I feel like there's some >> I don't know. I feel like there's some >> I don't know. I feel like there's some natural order to this and and I just natural order to this and and I just natural order to this and and I just just would like your thoughts on it. I just would like your thoughts on it. I just would like your thoughts on it. I feel like it's feel like it's feel like it's necessary, but not sufficient to have necessary, but not sufficient to have necessary, but not sufficient to have lots and lots and lots of failures. lots and lots and lots of failures. lots and lots and lots of failures. >> Yeah. And I think it's necessary and and >> Yeah. And I think it's necessary and and >> Yeah. And I think it's necessary and and necessary, absolutely necessary, to necessary, absolutely necessary, to necessary, absolutely necessary, to study things that are just at some point study things that are just at some point study things that are just at some point curiosities. And that sounds like curiosities. And that sounds like curiosities. And that sounds like science is about trivia. science is about trivia. science is about trivia. But you know, you you gave the example But you know, you you gave the example But you know, you you gave the example clip one, somebody was just curious as clip one, somebody was just curious as clip one, somebody was just curious as to why Gila monsters it was to why Gila monsters it was to why Gila monsters it was the feature was that Gila monsters can the feature was that Gila monsters can the feature was that Gila monsters can go into you know, dormancy for like 10 go into you know, dormancy for like 10 go into you know, dormancy for like 10 months, not eat, months, not eat, months, not eat, and then come out. And like how do they and then come out. And like how do they and then come out. And like how do they manage that? And so that's that was just manage that? And so that's that was just manage that? And so that's that was just like what is that? What is it what like what is that? What is it what like what is that? What is it what causes that? causes that? causes that? CRISPR, you know, that was people were CRISPR, you know, that was people were CRISPR, you know, that was people were studying like how do bacteria defend studying like how do bacteria defend studying like how do bacteria defend against other bacteria? Well, they use against other bacteria? Well, they use against other bacteria? Well, they use this it turns out there's this enzyme this it turns out there's this enzyme this it turns out there's this enzyme and it and it and it remembers the sequence of this one remembers the sequence of this one remembers the sequence of this one bacteria that has come and invaded you bacteria that has come and invaded you bacteria that has come and invaded you before and then can like modify the before and then can like modify the before and then can like modify the genome and get rid of it and like kill genome and get rid of it and like kill genome and get rid of it and like kill it. Well, that same you know, that same it. Well, that same you know, that same it. Well, that same you know, that same enzyme then be which we now use for all enzyme then be which we now use for all enzyme then be which we now use for all this human engineering came out of a this human engineering came out of a this human engineering came out of a basic like how do bacteria defend basic like how do bacteria defend basic like how do bacteria defend themselves? It's not anything about like themselves? It's not anything about like themselves? It's not anything about like you know, modifying sickle cell anemia. you know, modifying sickle cell anemia. you know, modifying sickle cell anemia. It was about how does the world work? My It was about how does the world work? My It was about how does the world work? My career is exactly as long as is the as career is exactly as long as is the as career is exactly as long as is the as the lifespan of of this this field we the lifespan of of this this field we the lifespan of of this this field we call cancer immunotherapy. I did the call cancer immunotherapy. I did the call cancer immunotherapy. I did the first immunotherapy experiment. I first immunotherapy experiment. I first immunotherapy experiment. I injected a mouse with an antibody that injected a mouse with an antibody that injected a mouse with an antibody that I'd made. It was against a molecules on I'd made. It was against a molecules on I'd made. It was against a molecules on T cells. T cells. T cells. And I shown already in the lab that that And I shown already in the lab that that And I shown already in the lab that that molecule caused the T cells to get more molecule caused the T cells to get more molecule caused the T cells to get more activated when you blocked it. And and activated when you blocked it. And and activated when you blocked it. And and we did a series of like other mouse we did a series of like other mouse we did a series of like other mouse experiments of like all kinds of experiments of like all kinds of experiments of like all kinds of diseases and it you know, kept humming diseases and it you know, kept humming diseases and it you know, kept humming up the T cells and then and you know, up the T cells and then and you know, up the T cells and then and you know, Jim I I got that I said we got some Jim I I got that I said we got some Jim I I got that I said we got some tumors in the fridge and so we set up tumors in the fridge and so we set up tumors in the fridge and so we set up that experiment. And you know, you that experiment. And you know, you that experiment. And you know, you injected this antibody and the tumors injected this antibody and the tumors injected this antibody and the tumors melted. Well, that was the start of melted. Well, that was the start of melted. Well, that was the start of cancer immunotherapy really that's cancer immunotherapy really that's cancer immunotherapy really that's that's this that's the origin of that's this that's the origin of that's this that's the origin of >> experiment for which let's just be >> experiment for which let's just be >> experiment for which let's just be direct here that your your advisor won direct here that your your advisor won direct here that your your advisor won the Nobel Prize. the Nobel Prize. the Nobel Prize. >> Correct. Correct. >> Correct. Correct. >> Correct. Correct. >> Did you at least get to attend the >> Did you at least get to attend the >> Did you at least get to attend the ceremony? ceremony? ceremony? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, well, that was that was a little >> Oh, well, that was that was a little >> Oh, well, that was that was a little thing. thing. thing. >> This is how science works. >> This is how science works. >> This is how science works. >> Doesn't matter who did the experiment. >> Doesn't matter who did the experiment. >> Doesn't matter who did the experiment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Matters what lab you're in. >> Matters what lab you're in. >> Matters what lab you're in. >> Yeah, you guys didn't you didn't get to >> Yeah, you guys didn't you didn't get to >> Yeah, you guys didn't you didn't get to go learn. The the after parties were go learn. The the after parties were go learn. The the after parties were good. Uh, but I guess I'm not not take good. Uh, but I guess I'm not not take good. Uh, but I guess I'm not not take you back like you back like you back like we weren't trying to cure cancer when we we weren't trying to cure cancer when we we weren't trying to cure cancer when we started this. I did the thesis project started this. I did the thesis project started this. I did the thesis project when I went into Jim this is my my when I went into Jim this is my my when I went into Jim this is my my mentor at that point. mentor at that point. mentor at that point. The discussion was like, well, there's The discussion was like, well, there's The discussion was like, well, there's some molecules on T cells and and I said some molecules on T cells and and I said some molecules on T cells and and I said you know, we we knew from AIDS and a few you know, we we knew from AIDS and a few you know, we we knew from AIDS and a few other things that T cells were other things that T cells were other things that T cells were important. So, So was the attraction and important. So, So was the attraction and important. So, So was the attraction and though you had people say, "Why would though you had people say, "Why would though you had people say, "Why would you do immunology?" Well, they seem to you do immunology?" Well, they seem to you do immunology?" Well, they seem to be interested. And there was a molecule be interested. And there was a molecule be interested. And there was a molecule and it was like, "Well, yeah, let's just and it was like, "Well, yeah, let's just and it was like, "Well, yeah, let's just see what it does." And once you saw you see what it does." And once you saw you see what it does." And once you saw you could turn things off, then everything could turn things off, then everything could turn things off, then everything became possible, right? Now you study became possible, right? Now you study became possible, right? Now you study immune system you could dial up. You immune system you could dial up. You immune system you could dial up. You could say, "Well, if I could dial up, could say, "Well, if I could dial up, could say, "Well, if I could dial up, well, what will happen to vaccination?" well, what will happen to vaccination?" well, what will happen to vaccination?" Well, it got better. What will happen Well, it got better. What will happen Well, it got better. What will happen to, you know, multiple sclerosis? The to, you know, multiple sclerosis? The to, you know, multiple sclerosis? The disease got worse. You know, what will disease got worse. You know, what will disease got worse. You know, what will happen to cancer? Ooh, we can start to happen to cancer? Ooh, we can start to happen to cancer? Ooh, we can start to have an effect on it. And and and you have an effect on it. And and and you have an effect on it. And and and you know, know, know, the X-ray, you know, the people were the X-ray, you know, the people were the X-ray, you know, the people were studying physics and then it turns out studying physics and then it turns out studying physics and then it turns out to be that that they were like, "Oh, I to be that that they were like, "Oh, I to be that that they were like, "Oh, I can measure I can I can measure bone." can measure I can I can measure bone." can measure I can I can measure bone." And that's how we use X-rays now, like And that's how we use X-rays now, like And that's how we use X-rays now, like to to you know, so there's all these to to you know, so there's all these to to you know, so there's all these examples that everything you know, like examples that everything you know, like examples that everything you know, like the big things often come from these the big things often come from these the big things often come from these orthogonal directions and then we orthogonal directions and then we orthogonal directions and then we realize what it might mean. realize what it might mean. realize what it might mean. And I think you have to start there, And I think you have to start there, And I think you have to start there, otherwise you'll just plow this otherwise you'll just plow this otherwise you'll just plow this direction and you'll hit those walls direction and you'll hit those walls direction and you'll hit those walls because you don't have to work around it because you don't have to work around it because you don't have to work around it comes with some orthogonal piece of comes with some orthogonal piece of comes with some orthogonal piece of information. Orthogonal meaning at right information. Orthogonal meaning at right information. Orthogonal meaning at right angles, right? So, you know, again, angles, right? So, you know, again, angles, right? So, you know, again, CRISPR came from bacteria, but it's CRISPR came from bacteria, but it's CRISPR came from bacteria, but it's really useful in us as an engineering really useful in us as an engineering really useful in us as an engineering tool. But we wouldn't have known that if tool. But we wouldn't have known that if tool. But we wouldn't have known that if somebody hadn't been out there sort of somebody hadn't been out there sort of somebody hadn't been out there sort of saying, "Okay, well, how do how do saying, "Okay, well, how do how do saying, "Okay, well, how do how do bacteria do it? You know, how do they bacteria do it? You know, how do they bacteria do it? You know, how do they defend themselves?" Oh, they use this defend themselves?" Oh, they use this defend themselves?" Oh, they use this enzyme. And I think that's a really enzyme. And I think that's a really enzyme. And I think that's a really important message that that dispels this important message that that dispels this important message that that dispels this idea that everything is sort of like idea that everything is sort of like idea that everything is sort of like basically just easy for us to engineer. basically just easy for us to engineer. basically just easy for us to engineer. Yes, once you have the CRISPR tool it Yes, once you have the CRISPR tool it Yes, once you have the CRISPR tool it becomes actually kind of easy to do some becomes actually kind of easy to do some becomes actually kind of easy to do some really cool things with it and still really cool things with it and still really cool things with it and still creative. But the fundamental leap that creative. But the fundamental leap that creative. But the fundamental leap that you're describing, I don't think in many you're describing, I don't think in many you're describing, I don't think in many of those cases that people were kind of of those cases that people were kind of of those cases that people were kind of conceiving when they were in in the conceiving when they were in in the conceiving when they were in in the first dregs of doing it first dregs of doing it first dregs of doing it that this would become an industry. that this would become an industry. that this would become an industry. You know, this would become a whole You know, this would become a whole You know, this would become a whole thing. And and maybe that's important thing. And and maybe that's important thing. And and maybe that's important because you need to foster that. If if because you need to foster that. If if because you need to foster that. If if everybody always thought they were doing everybody always thought they were doing everybody always thought they were doing it to build a company and, you know, it to build a company and, you know, it to build a company and, you know, sell a product or something, then then I sell a product or something, then then I sell a product or something, then then I don't think we would do the things that don't think we would do the things that don't think we would do the things that get us new. You know, that's that's all get us new. You know, that's that's all get us new. You know, that's that's all that's all kind of what we already know. that's all kind of what we already know. that's all kind of what we already know. That's human knowledge. We want to build That's human knowledge. We want to build That's human knowledge. We want to build human knowledge. And to build human human knowledge. And to build human human knowledge. And to build human knowledge we got to go off piste. You knowledge we got to go off piste. You knowledge we got to go off piste. You can't ski on the slope. You got to be can't ski on the slope. You got to be can't ski on the slope. You got to be like in the trees and maybe and bump like in the trees and maybe and bump like in the trees and maybe and bump your head a bunch of times. I I think your head a bunch of times. I I think your head a bunch of times. I I think that's the reality and it's like you got that's the reality and it's like you got that's the reality and it's like you got a lot of people out there that are that a lot of people out there that are that a lot of people out there that are that are that have decided to do that for a are that have decided to do that for a are that have decided to do that for a life because it's a it's a it's a chance life because it's a it's a it's a chance life because it's a it's a it's a chance to like solve a puzzle. It's like to like solve a puzzle. It's like to like solve a puzzle. It's like there's there's puzzles about how the there's there's puzzles about how the there's there's puzzles about how the world works. And if you've ever done a world works. And if you've ever done a world works. And if you've ever done a jigsaw puzzle you find there's always jigsaw puzzle you find there's always jigsaw puzzle you find there's always like the oh, you get in and especially like the oh, you get in and especially like the oh, you get in and especially in the end you're like how do you know in the end you're like how do you know in the end you're like how do you know what pieces come together to do it? I what pieces come together to do it? I what pieces come together to do it? I think that's what makes this whole think that's what makes this whole think that's what makes this whole science thing really fun. It's that's science thing really fun. It's that's science thing really fun. It's that's the that's the reward. Is that you get the that's the reward. Is that you get the that's the reward. Is that you get the puzzle piece in and you're like oh, the puzzle piece in and you're like oh, the puzzle piece in and you're like oh, I you know, it makes sense that now I I you know, it makes sense that now I I you know, it makes sense that now I know what I've been building I've been know what I've been building I've been know what I've been building I've been building this puzzle. building this puzzle. building this puzzle. And and then you go back and you do it And and then you go back and you do it And and then you go back and you do it again because that's really satisfying again because that's really satisfying again because that's really satisfying at the end of it even though, you know, at the end of it even though, you know, at the end of it even though, you know, you know, again with the family puzzle you know, again with the family puzzle you know, again with the family puzzle the first parts are so hard. Thousand the first parts are so hard. Thousand the first parts are so hard. Thousand pieces and you can you maybe find the pieces and you can you maybe find the pieces and you can you maybe find the edge. edge. edge. But the intervening where there's like But the intervening where there's like But the intervening where there's like all clouds super hard. And and I think all clouds super hard. And and I think all clouds super hard. And and I think that's that's that is what science is a that's that's that is what science is a that's that's that is what science is a lot about. Is is doing that and then lot about. Is is doing that and then lot about. Is is doing that and then realizing what the picture is. realizing what the picture is. realizing what the picture is. You know, what is that picture of it? You know, what is that picture of it? You know, what is that picture of it? And then and then all the you know, the And then and then all the you know, the And then and then all the you know, the brakes are are off. brakes are are off. brakes are are off. I often tell people that if if an if an I often tell people that if if an if an I often tell people that if if an if an experiment if an experiment you'll do in experiment if an experiment you'll do in experiment if an experiment you'll do in lab has a 10% chance of yielding lab has a 10% chance of yielding lab has a 10% chance of yielding anything interesting, you got to do at anything interesting, you got to do at anything interesting, you got to do at least 10, you know, to even meet least 10, you know, to even meet least 10, you know, to even meet fundamental stats. You actually have to fundamental stats. You actually have to fundamental stats. You actually have to do quite quite a few more. do quite quite a few more. do quite quite a few more. So, that's where it's not a it's not a So, that's where it's not a it's not a So, that's where it's not a it's not a cost-effective thing if you cost-effective thing if you cost-effective thing if you it's it's really difficult to be a it's it's really difficult to be a it's it's really difficult to be a scientist because there's no quid pro scientist because there's no quid pro scientist because there's no quid pro quo. There's no there's nothing to say quo. There's no there's nothing to say quo. There's no there's nothing to say if you put in 5 hours that you'll get if you put in 5 hours that you'll get if you put in 5 hours that you'll get five units of goodness of of knowledge five units of goodness of of knowledge five units of goodness of of knowledge out of it. A lot of times you get zero. out of it. A lot of times you get zero. out of it. A lot of times you get zero. And and but then sometimes you put five And and but then sometimes you put five And and but then sometimes you put five in you get 500. in you get 500. in you get 500. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And and those are the jackpot moments. >> And and those are the jackpot moments. >> And and those are the jackpot moments. >> It's like life. >> It's like life. >> It's like life. >> It's like life. It really is. It's >> It's like life. It really is. It's >> It's like life. It really is. It's like yeah. like yeah. like yeah. >> that anyone who's considering a PhD, we >> that anyone who's considering a PhD, we >> that anyone who's considering a PhD, we had a call in from audience recently and had a call in from audience recently and had a call in from audience recently and someone said they're finishing someone said they're finishing someone said they're finishing undergraduate. They want to go the undergraduate. They want to go the undergraduate. They want to go the finishing graduate school. Should they finishing graduate school. Should they finishing graduate school. Should they go the research route? They want to do a go the research route? They want to do a go the research route? They want to do a post doc. And I'm like yes, yes, and post doc. And I'm like yes, yes, and post doc. And I'm like yes, yes, and yes. I rather than answer publicly I yes. I rather than answer publicly I yes. I rather than answer publicly I decided to just have a call with this decided to just have a call with this decided to just have a call with this individual because it's a rather niche individual because it's a rather niche individual because it's a rather niche question, but I mean also just in question, but I mean also just in question, but I mean also just in training your training your training your reward system to work for 5 years on reward system to work for 5 years on reward system to work for 5 years on something is so valuable, especially in something is so valuable, especially in something is so valuable, especially in this day and age, cuz everything else this day and age, cuz everything else this day and age, cuz everything else feels like it comes at like warp speed. feels like it comes at like warp speed. feels like it comes at like warp speed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's like clicks. It's like clicks. It's like clicks. >> Yeah, like and um >> Yeah, like and um >> Yeah, like and um to just put steady pressure on something to just put steady pressure on something to just put steady pressure on something with all the failures and all the things with all the failures and all the things with all the failures and all the things and then to finally complete something, and then to finally complete something, and then to finally complete something, it's a lot of people think it'll be it's a lot of people think it'll be it's a lot of people think it'll be underwhelming. I think I think quite the underwhelming. I think I think quite the underwhelming. I think I think quite the opposite. opposite. opposite. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's like anyone that's like done a >> It's like anyone that's like done a >> It's like anyone that's like done a triathlon or triathlon or triathlon or >> Well, you know >> Well, you know >> Well, you know >> raise raise a kid or done a >> raise raise a kid or done a >> raise raise a kid or done a >> You're like, oh my goodness. >> You're like, oh my goodness. >> You're like, oh my goodness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that never ends, right? There's >> And that never ends, right? There's >> And that never ends, right? There's nothing better than these long-term nothing better than these long-term nothing better than these long-term investments. investments. investments. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> Yeah. When they break through that way >> Yeah. When they break through that way >> Yeah. When they break through that way you're like your analogy, when you break you're like your analogy, when you break you're like your analogy, when you break through that dam or when you realize through that dam or when you realize through that dam or when you realize sometimes that you broken through the sometimes that you broken through the sometimes that you broken through the dam. And that's that's one of the funny dam. And that's that's one of the funny dam. And that's that's one of the funny things about I think science and maybe things about I think science and maybe things about I think science and maybe it's true in triathlons and stuff too, it's true in triathlons and stuff too, it's true in triathlons and stuff too, where you realize that you've all of a where you realize that you've all of a where you realize that you've all of a sudden got somewhere. sudden got somewhere. sudden got somewhere. >> I haven't done a triathlon, so I have to >> I haven't done a triathlon, so I have to >> I haven't done a triathlon, so I have to be fair. Rob, our producer sitting to be fair. Rob, our producer sitting to be fair. Rob, our producer sitting to our left as he has done many Iron Mans. our left as he has done many Iron Mans. our left as he has done many Iron Mans. And he has that mindset. And he has that mindset. And he has that mindset. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just steady pressure. I mean, his >> Just steady pressure. I mean, his >> Just steady pressure. I mean, his relationship to work and effort is relationship to work and effort is relationship to work and effort is remarkable because he burns so little remarkable because he burns so little remarkable because he burns so little energy worrying about things that we energy worrying about things that we energy worrying about things that we refer to as in the left column, like the refer to as in the left column, like the refer to as in the left column, like the stuff you can't impact and just focusing stuff you can't impact and just focusing stuff you can't impact and just focusing on what you can impact. And so, a lot of on what you can impact. And so, a lot of on what you can impact. And so, a lot of it is about learning energetic control. it is about learning energetic control. it is about learning energetic control. Like doing science that is or anything Like doing science that is or anything Like doing science that is or anything is about what not to think about, what is about what not to think about, what is about what not to think about, what not what to force yourself not to do or not what to force yourself not to do or not what to force yourself not to do or think about. think about. think about. >> If I may, I'd like to shift us to this >> If I may, I'd like to shift us to this >> If I may, I'd like to shift us to this very interesting area of immunology and very interesting area of immunology and very interesting area of immunology and biology, which you refer to as spatial biology, which you refer to as spatial biology, which you refer to as spatial biology. biology. biology. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And I'm going to pose a question that >> And I'm going to pose a question that >> And I'm going to pose a question that may or may not fit with may or may not fit with may or may not fit with >> Um >> Um >> Um >> this framework, but either way I'd like >> this framework, but either way I'd like >> this framework, but either way I'd like to like you to educate us on it. to like you to educate us on it. to like you to educate us on it. I'm fascinated by these old kind of I'm fascinated by these old kind of I'm fascinated by these old kind of barbaric experiments in medicine. barbaric experiments in medicine. barbaric experiments in medicine. Um wonderful book, by the way, folks is Um wonderful book, by the way, folks is Um wonderful book, by the way, folks is the Prince of Medicine about Galen, if the Prince of Medicine about Galen, if the Prince of Medicine about Galen, if you ever want to learn about how we you ever want to learn about how we you ever want to learn about how we learned about medicine back when it was learned about medicine back when it was learned about medicine back when it was truly barbaric. It was like truly barbaric. It was like truly barbaric. It was like surgeries done on surgeries done on surgeries done on warriors and without anesthesia and warriors and without anesthesia and warriors and without anesthesia and we've known for a long time that if uh we've known for a long time that if uh we've known for a long time that if uh somebody god forbid has a finger lopped somebody god forbid has a finger lopped somebody god forbid has a finger lopped off or a hand lopped off that might off or a hand lopped off that might off or a hand lopped off that might actually be a worthwhile investment to actually be a worthwhile investment to actually be a worthwhile investment to make an incision in the gut and stuff make an incision in the gut and stuff make an incision in the gut and stuff that thing in the gut to keep it warm that thing in the gut to keep it warm that thing in the gut to keep it warm and keep the tissue viable for and keep the tissue viable for and keep the tissue viable for regeneration once you try and put put it regeneration once you try and put put it regeneration once you try and put put it back on. Turns out that's true. back on. Turns out that's true. back on. Turns out that's true. >> Is that true? >> Is that true? >> Is that true? >> Yeah, there's a bunch of juicy stuff in >> Yeah, there's a bunch of juicy stuff in >> Yeah, there's a bunch of juicy stuff in the in the gut that maybe it's the the in the gut that maybe it's the the in the gut that maybe it's the warmth, maybe it's warmth, maybe it's warmth, maybe it's the immune system. the immune system. the immune system. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Maybe it's the lack of infection from >> Maybe it's the lack of infection from >> Maybe it's the lack of infection from being inside as opposed to outside the being inside as opposed to outside the being inside as opposed to outside the body. Who knows? body. Who knows? body. Who knows? >> Gut you mean the intestine or you mean >> Gut you mean the intestine or you mean >> Gut you mean the intestine or you mean the stomach? the stomach? the stomach? >> Within the stomach, yeah. >> Within the stomach, yeah. >> Within the stomach, yeah. >> The stomach itself. >> The stomach itself. >> The stomach itself. >> Yeah, I'm not suggesting anyone do this >> Yeah, I'm not suggesting anyone do this >> Yeah, I'm not suggesting anyone do this experiment. As I started reading into experiment. As I started reading into experiment. As I started reading into this, I discovered that there are a lot this, I discovered that there are a lot this, I discovered that there are a lot of really cool experiments not just in of really cool experiments not just in of really cool experiments not just in re- re- re- limb or tissue preservation and and limb or tissue preservation and and limb or tissue preservation and and restoration. Like for instance, restoration. Like for instance, restoration. Like for instance, I've talked many times on this podcast I've talked many times on this podcast I've talked many times on this podcast about the fact that above our about the fact that above our about the fact that above our the roof of our mouth, we have this the roof of our mouth, we have this the roof of our mouth, we have this small cluster of neurons the small cluster of neurons the small cluster of neurons the suprachiasmatic nucleus organizes the suprachiasmatic nucleus organizes the suprachiasmatic nucleus organizes the circadian rhythms of every cell in our circadian rhythms of every cell in our circadian rhythms of every cell in our body from the genetic to the transmitter body from the genetic to the transmitter body from the genetic to the transmitter level peptides, etc. Keeps us level peptides, etc. Keeps us level peptides, etc. Keeps us sleep-wake cycles, does all the sleep-wake cycles, does all the sleep-wake cycles, does all the organization that we need organization that we need organization that we need >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> for circadian rhythms. So much so >> for circadian rhythms. So much so >> for circadian rhythms. So much so that you can take just one subpopulation that you can take just one subpopulation that you can take just one subpopulation of these neurons, the calbindin of these neurons, the calbindin of these neurons, the calbindin expressing suprachiasmatic nucleus expressing suprachiasmatic nucleus expressing suprachiasmatic nucleus neurons. It's like neurons. It's like neurons. It's like 5% of the total neurons in this already 5% of the total neurons in this already 5% of the total neurons in this already tiny cluster of neurons tiny cluster of neurons tiny cluster of neurons and you can transplant them and you can transplant them and you can transplant them pretty much anywhere pretty much anywhere pretty much anywhere and certainly in the brain and you'll and certainly in the brain and you'll and certainly in the brain and you'll restore the circadian rhythm of an restore the circadian rhythm of an restore the circadian rhythm of an arrhythmic arrhythmic arrhythmic animal. animal. animal. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So that tells you a lot of cool things. >> So that tells you a lot of cool things. >> So that tells you a lot of cool things. It says, "Okay, there's probably It says, "Okay, there's probably It says, "Okay, there's probably something that's secreted or something that's secreted or something that's secreted or but like these cells are that important but like these cells are that important but like these cells are that important and it doesn't really matter where they and it doesn't really matter where they and it doesn't really matter where they are are are >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> at least in the brain, they can do what >> at least in the brain, they can do what >> at least in the brain, they can do what they need to do, which is super cool. they need to do, which is super cool. they need to do, which is super cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then I started reading about, "Oh, >> And then I started reading about, "Oh, >> And then I started reading about, "Oh, like you could actually take perhaps like you could actually take perhaps like you could actually take perhaps like a little bit of pancreatic tissue like a little bit of pancreatic tissue like a little bit of pancreatic tissue and like stuff it in the you know, under and like stuff it in the you know, under and like stuff it in the you know, under the skin." the skin." the skin." >> You mean the kidney capsule? >> You mean the kidney capsule? >> You mean the kidney capsule? >> It's not ideal, but you get some >> It's not ideal, but you get some >> It's not ideal, but you get some function back. function back. function back. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So I'm fascinated by this because we >> So I'm fascinated by this because we >> So I'm fascinated by this because we like to think that the organization of like to think that the organization of like to think that the organization of our organs is so critical. our organs is so critical. our organs is so critical. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But maybe they just need to be there. >> But maybe they just need to be there. >> But maybe they just need to be there. Now, no one should test this hypothesis Now, no one should test this hypothesis Now, no one should test this hypothesis unless they have to. But when we think unless they have to. But when we think unless they have to. But when we think about the immune system, about the immune system, about the immune system, you describe the function of the thymus you describe the function of the thymus you describe the function of the thymus beautifully. You talked about the bone beautifully. You talked about the bone beautifully. You talked about the bone marrow. But you also talked about the marrow. But you also talked about the marrow. But you also talked about the massive migration of these cells that massive migration of these cells that massive migration of these cells that are working in this network. are working in this network. are working in this network. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> How important is spatial >> How important is spatial >> How important is spatial compartmentalization of these cells? Or compartmentalization of these cells? Or compartmentalization of these cells? Or is the rule eliminate spatial is the rule eliminate spatial is the rule eliminate spatial compartmentalization in order to make compartmentalization in order to make compartmentalization in order to make the immune system function at its best? the immune system function at its best? the immune system function at its best? And there's a very specific practical And there's a very specific practical And there's a very specific practical question which I'm asking this, but I'm question which I'm asking this, but I'm question which I'm asking this, but I'm just going to tuck that away to pique just going to tuck that away to pique just going to tuck that away to pique people's interest and I'll get to it. people's interest and I'll get to it. people's interest and I'll get to it. But this is relevant to how we But this is relevant to how we But this is relevant to how we to decision important decisions that we to decision important decisions that we to decision important decisions that we make, I believe. make, I believe. make, I believe. >> The answer is yes and yes. You know, >> The answer is yes and yes. You know, >> The answer is yes and yes. You know, it's it's both. So, although I described it's it's both. So, although I described it's it's both. So, although I described the immune system in the earlier part of the immune system in the earlier part of the immune system in the earlier part of this discussion as super migratory and this discussion as super migratory and this discussion as super migratory and you know, hitches a ride in the blood, you know, hitches a ride in the blood, you know, hitches a ride in the blood, gets into tissues, it travels through gets into tissues, it travels through gets into tissues, it travels through your lymphatics. There are these things your lymphatics. There are these things your lymphatics. There are these things called lymph nodes down the lymphatic called lymph nodes down the lymphatic called lymph nodes down the lymphatic tubing which for those of you who don't tubing which for those of you who don't tubing which for those of you who don't know, lymphatics are like drainage. It's know, lymphatics are like drainage. It's know, lymphatics are like drainage. It's how you drain the the fluid back out of how you drain the the fluid back out of how you drain the the fluid back out of your tissue. your tissue. your tissue. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> So, [clears throat] although there's you >> So, [clears throat] although there's you >> So, [clears throat] although there's you know, these mass migration of cells, know, these mass migration of cells, know, these mass migration of cells, there's also in like even just in T there's also in like even just in T there's also in like even just in T cells, there's T cells that lodge in cells, there's T cells that lodge in cells, there's T cells that lodge in particular settings and they you know, particular settings and they you know, particular settings and they you know, act to protect that tissue and they act to protect that tissue and they act to protect that tissue and they and they're resident cells of those and they're resident cells of those and they're resident cells of those tissues. They never leave. tissues. They never leave. tissues. They never leave. And um so, both are true. You have you And um so, both are true. You have you And um so, both are true. You have you know, parts of your immune system that know, parts of your immune system that know, parts of your immune system that are you know, protective or or like are you know, protective or or like are you know, protective or or like nurturing of particular areas and then nurturing of particular areas and then nurturing of particular areas and then there's ones that are circulating and there's ones that are circulating and there's ones that are circulating and can hit any any spot. can hit any any spot. can hit any any spot. You know, going back to your idea of You know, going back to your idea of You know, going back to your idea of organs and such being moved, I think organs and such being moved, I think organs and such being moved, I think there's two components to that that you there's two components to that that you there's two components to that that you might be thinking about. One of them is might be thinking about. One of them is might be thinking about. One of them is the question of whether the organ can the question of whether the organ can the question of whether the organ can survive in the new space. survive in the new space. survive in the new space. Like does it have the growth factors and Like does it have the growth factors and Like does it have the growth factors and the blood flow and the and lymphatic the blood flow and the and lymphatic the blood flow and the and lymphatic outflow and maybe even some neuronal outflow and maybe even some neuronal outflow and maybe even some neuronal activity that you know, makes that activity that you know, makes that activity that you know, makes that tissue work. tissue work. tissue work. So, so that's where like if you take the So, so that's where like if you take the So, so that's where like if you take the pancreas, you you famously put it pancreas, you you famously put it pancreas, you you famously put it underneath the kidney capsule. Kidney underneath the kidney capsule. Kidney underneath the kidney capsule. Kidney has kind of like a skin around it. You has kind of like a skin around it. You has kind of like a skin around it. You can tuck some some some pancreatic cells can tuck some some some pancreatic cells can tuck some some some pancreatic cells in there. And they're super happy. They in there. And they're super happy. They in there. And they're super happy. They love that. They get all the blood flow love that. They get all the blood flow love that. They get all the blood flow they need and it seems to be just right they need and it seems to be just right they need and it seems to be just right for them. for them. for them. But, if you've got somebody with But, if you've got somebody with But, if you've got somebody with diabetes, for example, and you try to diabetes, for example, and you try to diabetes, for example, and you try to put new pancreatic cells in anywhere in put new pancreatic cells in anywhere in put new pancreatic cells in anywhere in their body, the immune system will their body, the immune system will their body, the immune system will attack it just as it did the first that attack it just as it did the first that attack it just as it did the first that it did. it did. it did. Diabetes, for those who don't know, type Diabetes, for those who don't know, type Diabetes, for those who don't know, type 1 diabetes or is caused by the immune 1 diabetes or is caused by the immune 1 diabetes or is caused by the immune system that gets system that gets system that gets too active against the pancreas. It's too active against the pancreas. It's too active against the pancreas. It's autoimmunity. It's where it's now saying autoimmunity. It's where it's now saying autoimmunity. It's where it's now saying the pancreas is is not self. It's the pancreas is is not self. It's the pancreas is is not self. It's something foreign and it wipes it out something foreign and it wipes it out something foreign and it wipes it out and that's the source of what I said and that's the source of what I said and that's the source of what I said earlier, like your immune system can be earlier, like your immune system can be earlier, like your immune system can be quite dangerous. quite dangerous. quite dangerous. So, like when you talk about this So, like when you talk about this So, like when you talk about this concept of like spatial, um there's a concept of like spatial, um there's a concept of like spatial, um there's a few things to bring in. One is this the few things to bring in. One is this the few things to bring in. One is this the organ. Can the organ get what it needs? organ. Can the organ get what it needs? organ. Can the organ get what it needs? And then does the immune system accept And then does the immune system accept And then does the immune system accept it in some ways in that environment? And it in some ways in that environment? And it in some ways in that environment? And that's where like some some of your that's where like some some of your that's where like some some of your immune system that lives spatially in immune system that lives spatially in immune system that lives spatially in certain areas is going to be very like certain areas is going to be very like certain areas is going to be very like defensive against whatever it's, you defensive against whatever it's, you defensive against whatever it's, you know, specific against in that area, but know, specific against in that area, but know, specific against in that area, but may not care what's happening elsewhere may not care what's happening elsewhere may not care what's happening elsewhere because those cells just aren't It's not because those cells just aren't It's not because those cells just aren't It's not like the brain where you like if I I do like the brain where you like if I I do like the brain where you like if I I do something here, it's sensed in my brain. something here, it's sensed in my brain. something here, it's sensed in my brain. Immune system that if it does if the Immune system that if it does if the Immune system that if it does if the cells don't migrate, they don't have cells don't migrate, they don't have cells don't migrate, they don't have really a lot of ways to communicate. really a lot of ways to communicate. really a lot of ways to communicate. Like they can they can just hitch some Like they can they can just hitch some Like they can they can just hitch some signals on neurons. signals on neurons. signals on neurons. And that's a really interesting we could And that's a really interesting we could And that's a really interesting we could talk about the the capacity for your talk about the the capacity for your talk about the the capacity for your brain and brain and brain and you know, the insular cortex. There's a you know, the insular cortex. There's a you know, the insular cortex. There's a great set of stories emerging about how great set of stories emerging about how great set of stories emerging about how your insular cortex can program your your insular cortex can program your your insular cortex can program your immune state into organs and can via via immune state into organs and can via via immune state into organs and can via via the vagus can can can essentially the vagus can can can essentially the vagus can can can essentially program immune system. program immune system. program immune system. >> of of calm or stress or by thoughts >> of of calm or stress or by thoughts >> of of calm or stress or by thoughts themselves? themselves? themselves? >> Well, the the one the latter one is the >> Well, the the one the latter one is the >> Well, the the one the latter one is the one that gets me super excited about the one that gets me super excited about the one that gets me super excited about the possibility that you could have triggers possibility that you could have triggers possibility that you could have triggers for thoughts that So, the insular for thoughts that So, the insular for thoughts that So, the insular cortex, as I understand it, you know, cortex, as I understand it, you know, cortex, as I understand it, you know, it's a source of some of our moral it's a source of some of our moral it's a source of some of our moral decision-making. It's also the the decision-making. It's also the the decision-making. It's also the the thought to be the part of our brain thought to be the part of our brain thought to be the part of our brain where if you cut your hand and and I see where if you cut your hand and and I see where if you cut your hand and and I see it bleeding, I can feel it in my hand. I it bleeding, I can feel it in my hand. I it bleeding, I can feel it in my hand. I oh wow, you know, I can sense and you oh wow, you know, I can sense and you oh wow, you know, I can sense and you can sense each other's pain. It's a set can sense each other's pain. It's a set can sense each other's pain. It's a set set that there's very nice uh Israeli set that there's very nice uh Israeli set that there's very nice uh Israeli group that did this Royce lab that did group that did this Royce lab that did group that did this Royce lab that did very nice study where they induced into very nice study where they induced into very nice study where they induced into the guts of of mice the guts of of mice the guts of of mice inflammatory bowel disease. They fed inflammatory bowel disease. They fed inflammatory bowel disease. They fed them a really kind of weird sugar that them a really kind of weird sugar that them a really kind of weird sugar that causes them the bowel to puncture and causes them the bowel to puncture and causes them the bowel to puncture and then they get they get a really bad, you then they get they get a really bad, you then they get they get a really bad, you know, stomach ache. Um, know, stomach ache. Um, know, stomach ache. Um, a stomach ache and a stomach ache and a stomach ache and inflammatory bowel disease, diarrhea. inflammatory bowel disease, diarrhea. inflammatory bowel disease, diarrhea. And um, and in that period they used, And um, and in that period they used, And um, and in that period they used, you know, you know what dreads are. So you know, you know what dreads are. So you know, you know what dreads are. So they they marked uh, for the for the they they marked uh, for the for the they they marked uh, for the for the crowd it's they used they they used they crowd it's they used they they used they crowd it's they used they they used they used a way to to mark all the neurons used a way to to mark all the neurons used a way to to mark all the neurons that were firing during that period in that were firing during that period in that were firing during that period in the insular cortex. And then later they the insular cortex. And then later they the insular cortex. And then later they could fire them like after the mouse had could fire them like after the mouse had could fire them like after the mouse had recovered and the they saw evidence that recovered and the they saw evidence that recovered and the they saw evidence that the immune system was resetting up the immune system was resetting up the immune system was resetting up itself in the gut as if it had just been itself in the gut as if it had just been itself in the gut as if it had just been punctured, you know, like with a punctured, you know, like with a punctured, you know, like with a and the cues for that in that case were and the cues for that in that case were and the cues for that in that case were a drug. a drug. a drug. But we know that we can, you know, cue But we know that we can, you know, cue But we know that we can, you know, cue the insular cortex like me watching you the insular cortex like me watching you the insular cortex like me watching you do things. do things. do things. So it's always it's made me wonder So it's always it's made me wonder So it's always it's made me wonder whether, you know, like some of the whether, you know, like some of the whether, you know, like some of the things we we smell cut grass and we can things we we smell cut grass and we can things we we smell cut grass and we can we're, you know, instantly take us back we're, you know, instantly take us back we're, you know, instantly take us back to a whole bunch of thoughts about how to a whole bunch of thoughts about how to a whole bunch of thoughts about how we were when we were kids and maybe even we were when we were kids and maybe even we were when we were kids and maybe even make you feel a little like that. make you feel a little like that. make you feel a little like that. Whether there's aspects to this to which Whether there's aspects to this to which Whether there's aspects to this to which are, you know, our ability of our are, you know, our ability of our are, you know, our ability of our thoughts to control that region are are thoughts to control that region are are thoughts to control that region are are going to be revealed to, you know, to going to be revealed to, you know, to going to be revealed to, you know, to have potential that you could train uh, have potential that you could train uh, have potential that you could train uh, you know, train yourself to to, you you know, train yourself to to, you you know, train yourself to to, you know, to bring up an immune state in a know, to bring up an immune state in a know, to bring up an immune state in a particular tissue. particular tissue. particular tissue. >> Um, just so I'm we make sure everyone's >> Um, just so I'm we make sure everyone's >> Um, just so I'm we make sure everyone's on on board what you just described cuz on on board what you just described cuz on on board what you just described cuz there's a lot there. If I understand there's a lot there. If I understand there's a lot there. If I understand correctly, correctly, correctly, we know that the nervous system can do we know that the nervous system can do we know that the nervous system can do contextual learning. Like if it like if contextual learning. Like if it like if contextual learning. Like if it like if if an animal or or human, let's just if an animal or or human, let's just if an animal or or human, let's just keep it a human, gets um, shocked, keep it a human, gets um, shocked, keep it a human, gets um, shocked, scared, or traumatized in a given region scared, or traumatized in a given region scared, or traumatized in a given region yeah, or even I've had friends visit San yeah, or even I've had friends visit San yeah, or even I've had friends visit San Francisco and get their cars broken into Francisco and get their cars broken into Francisco and get their cars broken into and their computers stolen, you can and their computers stolen, you can and their computers stolen, you can develop a context context-dependent or develop a context context-dependent or develop a context context-dependent or and or place-dependent memory where you and or place-dependent memory where you and or place-dependent memory where you kind of don't like San Francisco as much kind of don't like San Francisco as much kind of don't like San Francisco as much even though the rest of the trip was even though the rest of the trip was even though the rest of the trip was awesome. That's a pretty broad awesome. That's a pretty broad awesome. That's a pretty broad interpretation. Or um, you have a great interpretation. Or um, you have a great interpretation. Or um, you have a great experience someplace and you actually experience someplace and you actually experience someplace and you actually really love San Francisco because you really love San Francisco because you really love San Francisco because you met your future spouse there or you just met your future spouse there or you just met your future spouse there or you just had a particularly awesome experience had a particularly awesome experience had a particularly awesome experience there. Even if it was just in one part, there. Even if it was just in one part, there. Even if it was just in one part, you might feel better about your you might feel better about your you might feel better about your computer getting stolen anyway. Okay. computer getting stolen anyway. Okay. computer getting stolen anyway. Okay. Insula seems like a you know, let's take Insula seems like a you know, let's take Insula seems like a you know, let's take the positive example. Let's keep it the positive example. Let's keep it the positive example. Let's keep it positive for a moment. I think what positive for a moment. I think what positive for a moment. I think what you're describing is that if we remember you're describing is that if we remember you're describing is that if we remember the positive thing, if there was a the positive thing, if there was a the positive thing, if there was a positive immune status positive immune status positive immune status >> associated with that. >> associated with that. >> associated with that. >> The immune system is also part of that >> The immune system is also part of that >> The immune system is also part of that contextual memory. And so [snorts] contextual memory. And so [snorts] contextual memory. And so [snorts] merely by recalling the positive or merely by recalling the positive or merely by recalling the positive or negative, but in this case positive negative, but in this case positive negative, but in this case positive memory, we can also we recall not just memory, we can also we recall not just memory, we can also we recall not just the memory, but also the body state and the memory, but also the body state and the memory, but also the body state and the body state includes the immune the body state includes the immune the body state includes the immune status that accompanied the positive status that accompanied the positive status that accompanied the positive or negative event. or negative event. or negative event. >> That's what these studies are starting >> That's what these studies are starting >> That's what these studies are starting to emerge and to emerge and to emerge and >> That's cool. That's really cool because >> That's cool. That's really cool because >> That's cool. That's really cool because we've heard for so long that like we we've heard for so long that like we we've heard for so long that like we know that chronic stress impedes know that chronic stress impedes know that chronic stress impedes immunity. We also know that acute stress immunity. We also know that acute stress immunity. We also know that acute stress boosts it. And that's something that, boosts it. And that's something that, boosts it. And that's something that, you know, with all due respect to my you know, with all due respect to my you know, with all due respect to my colleagues who've focused on the ill colleagues who've focused on the ill colleagues who've focused on the ill effects of chronically elevated effects of chronically elevated effects of chronically elevated cortisol, like the the cortisol, like the the cortisol, like the the the immune-enhancing effects of acute the immune-enhancing effects of acute the immune-enhancing effects of acute cortisol and stress are are really cortisol and stress are are really cortisol and stress are are really important and and I think they've been important and and I think they've been important and and I think they've been overlooked. But I love this because one overlooked. But I love this because one overlooked. But I love this because one of the problems {slash} luxuries that I of the problems {slash} luxuries that I of the problems {slash} luxuries that I I have is I sit sort of at the interface I have is I sit sort of at the interface I have is I sit sort of at the interface between like real science and biology between like real science and biology between like real science and biology and like what most people perceive as and like what most people perceive as and like what most people perceive as complete nonsense whackiness. complete nonsense whackiness. complete nonsense whackiness. But more and more we're finding that's But more and more we're finding that's But more and more we're finding that's within the complete nonsense whackiness within the complete nonsense whackiness within the complete nonsense whackiness there are kernels of truth like that you there are kernels of truth like that you there are kernels of truth like that you can actually meditate your way into a can actually meditate your way into a can actually meditate your way into a better state which helps serve your better state which helps serve your better state which helps serve your immune system and so on and so on. And immune system and so on and so on. And immune system and so on and so on. And that's seeming less and less wacky even that's seeming less and less wacky even that's seeming less and less wacky even outside California because of studies outside California because of studies outside California because of studies like the one you described. like the one you described. like the one you described. >> One of my friends who's a faculty down >> One of my friends who's a faculty down >> One of my friends who's a faculty down at NYU, we were talking about the same at NYU, we were talking about the same at NYU, we were talking about the same study and he was like, "That may be what study and he was like, "That may be what study and he was like, "That may be what meditation is doing." Cuz it may be meditation is doing." Cuz it may be meditation is doing." Cuz it may be allowing your brain to, you know, allowing your brain to, you know, allowing your brain to, you know, communicate and reset um you know, communicate and reset um you know, communicate and reset um you know, less inflammatory states less inflammatory states less inflammatory states >> Mhm. across your body because of this >> Mhm. across your body because of this >> Mhm. across your body because of this axis. And the study was really I think axis. And the study was really I think axis. And the study was really I think it was you know there's still work to be it was you know there's still work to be it was you know there's still work to be done in it but the you know the the done in it but the you know the the done in it but the you know the the fundamentals of it was in the actual fundamentals of it was in the actual fundamentals of it was in the actual event there were certain cells that event there were certain cells that event there were certain cells that would accumulate in there and then in would accumulate in there and then in would accumulate in there and then in the induced event when you made the the the induced event when you made the the the induced event when you made the the brain fire again of this mouse you would brain fire again of this mouse you would brain fire again of this mouse you would see you know not as profound but you saw see you know not as profound but you saw see you know not as profound but you saw this this evidence of these same sorts this this evidence of these same sorts this this evidence of these same sorts of cells accumulating there as if they of cells accumulating there as if they of cells accumulating there as if they you know they're ready for that you know they're ready for that you know they're ready for that inflammation. And I think what we're inflammation. And I think what we're inflammation. And I think what we're talking about is the idea that you could talking about is the idea that you could talking about is the idea that you could have that go both directions and that have that go both directions and that have that go both directions and that again you know the concept of I mean I'm again you know the concept of I mean I'm again you know the concept of I mean I'm sure you've talked about this before of sure you've talked about this before of sure you've talked about this before of of meditation where the of meditation where the of meditation where the idea is that you um you know you you idea is that you um you know you you idea is that you um you know you you it's one of the ways that you can it's one of the ways that you can it's one of the ways that you can control your autonomous nervous system control your autonomous nervous system control your autonomous nervous system is through is through your breath is through is through your breath is through is through your breath >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> um that happens with meditation. I think >> um that happens with meditation. I think >> um that happens with meditation. I think that to me there's something intuitive that to me there's something intuitive that to me there's something intuitive about that but you know I I just an hour about that but you know I I just an hour about that but you know I I just an hour ago warned you about the problem of ago warned you about the problem of ago warned you about the problem of science being intuitive that some things science being intuitive that some things science being intuitive that some things that make they sort of make a great that make they sort of make a great that make they sort of make a great story in our minds that don't turn out story in our minds that don't turn out story in our minds that don't turn out to be true but the the data on this to be true but the the data on this to be true but the the data on this insular cortex thing is starting to look insular cortex thing is starting to look insular cortex thing is starting to look like it's a real thing. Like there's like it's a real thing. Like there's like it's a real thing. Like there's there's a real connection between some there's a real connection between some there's a real connection between some of the peripheral states and and like a of the peripheral states and and like a of the peripheral states and and like a regions of the brain. regions of the brain. regions of the brain. And however those are triggered now And however those are triggered now And however those are triggered now maybe maybe maybe you know again I've I've often thought you know again I've I've often thought you know again I've I've often thought well maybe when you're healthy you well maybe when you're healthy you well maybe when you're healthy you should smell like mint and then when you should smell like mint and then when you should smell like mint and then when you want to be healthy again like you know want to be healthy again like you know want to be healthy again like you know there's it's it's it's kind of crazy there's it's it's it's kind of crazy there's it's it's it's kind of crazy thoughts but but again there's an thoughts but but again there's an thoughts but but again there's an element of that that's intuitive too element of that that's intuitive too element of that that's intuitive too where you say oh that seems to be the where you say oh that seems to be the where you say oh that seems to be the case. My mom makes me a comfort meal. Is case. My mom makes me a comfort meal. Is case. My mom makes me a comfort meal. Is it really the meal settling in or is it it really the meal settling in or is it it really the meal settling in or is it just the that the sensations that make just the that the sensations that make just the that the sensations that make me feel like you know less you know but me feel like you know less you know but me feel like you know less you know but I was stressed in one sense I was stressed in one sense I was stressed in one sense >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> but maybe also on to this point and >> but maybe also on to this point and >> but maybe also on to this point and literally resetting your tissue. literally resetting your tissue. literally resetting your tissue. >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Function. acknowledge our sponsor Function. acknowledge our sponsor Function. 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To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman, functionhealth.com/huberman, functionhealth.com/huberman, and use the code Huberman for a $50 and use the code Huberman for a $50 and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, credit towards your membership. Again, credit towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. I'm always struck by um extremes of I'm always struck by um extremes of personality, but in both directions. So, personality, but in both directions. So, personality, but in both directions. So, there are these [clears throat] people there are these [clears throat] people there are these [clears throat] people who just say like, "I don't get sick." who just say like, "I don't get sick." who just say like, "I don't get sick." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they don't get sick, and it's super >> And they don't get sick, and it's super >> And they don't get sick, and it's super frustrating. Because I'm not one of frustrating. Because I'm not one of frustrating. Because I'm not one of these people that's very sickly, but I these people that's very sickly, but I these people that's very sickly, but I occasionally get like a sniffle or a occasionally get like a sniffle or a occasionally get like a sniffle or a cold or something. You know, less and cold or something. You know, less and cold or something. You know, less and less with each year, because I do feel less with each year, because I do feel less with each year, because I do feel like pay more attention to the sleep like pay more attention to the sleep like pay more attention to the sleep piece. piece. piece. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Um then I certainly than I did when I >> Um then I certainly than I did when I >> Um then I certainly than I did when I was a graduate student, post-doc, or was a graduate student, post-doc, or was a graduate student, post-doc, or junior professor. Yeah. But there does junior professor. Yeah. But there does junior professor. Yeah. But there does seem to be this {quote} {unquote} seem to be this {quote} {unquote} seem to be this {quote} {unquote} positive, or let's just call it a positive, or let's just call it a positive, or let's just call it a reinforced mindset, as opposed like reinforced mindset, as opposed like reinforced mindset, as opposed like [clears throat] an immune reinforcement [clears throat] an immune reinforcement [clears throat] an immune reinforcement associated with mindset, because associated with mindset, because associated with mindset, because um some people will say like I I just um some people will say like I I just um some people will say like I I just always get sick and I believe them. They always get sick and I believe them. They always get sick and I believe them. They always seem sick. But it could be that always seem sick. But it could be that always seem sick. But it could be that um you get sick in um you get sick in um you get sick in in a given environment once and then you in a given environment once and then you in a given environment once and then you you just decide that you're sickly. So you just decide that you're sickly. So you just decide that you're sickly. So then then then you know you know you know could be that the immune system is could be that the immune system is could be that the immune system is listening to these thoughts but not in listening to these thoughts but not in listening to these thoughts but not in the form of words. I think this is where the form of words. I think this is where the form of words. I think this is where like it gets hokey for people like real like it gets hokey for people like real like it gets hokey for people like real biologists and and physicians like yeah, biologists and and physicians like yeah, biologists and and physicians like yeah, you got to be kidding me. Like you got to be kidding me. Like you got to be kidding me. Like but cuz immune cells don't listen to but cuz immune cells don't listen to but cuz immune cells don't listen to thoughts. They listen to brain states. thoughts. They listen to brain states. thoughts. They listen to brain states. >> Triggers of some sort. >> Triggers of some sort. >> Triggers of some sort. >> Triggers of some sort, right? Um and >> Triggers of some sort, right? Um and >> Triggers of some sort, right? Um and then there's like as humans we have this then there's like as humans we have this then there's like as humans we have this obsession with language that makes it obsession with language that makes it obsession with language that makes it seem like you can you know write seem like you can you know write seem like you can you know write affirmations and then it's the word affirmations and then it's the word affirmations and then it's the word content but it's the feeling state content but it's the feeling state content but it's the feeling state associated with that that associated with that that associated with that that >> Probably >> Probably >> Probably >> level makes total sense. >> level makes total sense. >> level makes total sense. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it's we were talking about spatial >> So it's we were talking about spatial >> So it's we were talking about spatial biology and the fact that you can tuck biology and the fact that you can tuck biology and the fact that you can tuck some pancreas in the kidney and unless some pancreas in the kidney and unless some pancreas in the kidney and unless say someone has type 1 diabetes say someone has type 1 diabetes say someone has type 1 diabetes >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> a lot of the functions of the pancreas >> a lot of the functions of the pancreas >> a lot of the functions of the pancreas can can can >> can still function. >> can still function. >> can still function. >> or >> or >> or transplantation of these clock neurons transplantation of these clock neurons transplantation of these clock neurons and clearly there are limits to this but and clearly there are limits to this but and clearly there are limits to this but in the context of the immune system in the context of the immune system in the context of the immune system I'm wondering I'm wondering I'm wondering can we take a little bit of thymic can we take a little bit of thymic can we take a little bit of thymic tissue tissue tissue bank it and then just later like bank it and then just later like bank it and then just later like put it in a slow release capsule put it in a slow release capsule put it in a slow release capsule under our skin of our hand. You know under our skin of our hand. You know under our skin of our hand. You know like and that might sound crazy but I like and that might sound crazy but I like and that might sound crazy but I have friends one of whom might be at have friends one of whom might be at have friends one of whom might be at Neuralink [clears throat] now who Neuralink [clears throat] now who Neuralink [clears throat] now who actually embedded a little radio actually embedded a little radio actually embedded a little radio receiver under his hand to be able to receiver under his hand to be able to receiver under his hand to be able to open his open his open his um it locks at his home and his car and um it locks at his home and his car and um it locks at his home and his car and his wife might have one also and like his wife might have one also and like his wife might have one also and like that might sound really like Bay Area that might sound really like Bay Area that might sound really like Bay Area like future tech kind of wacky like future tech kind of wacky like future tech kind of wacky biohacking. biohacking. biohacking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But >> But >> But if I knew that I could be much healthier if I knew that I could be much healthier if I knew that I could be much healthier like taking a few thymic cells and in a like taking a few thymic cells and in a like taking a few thymic cells and in a you know a sterile capsule and sliding you know a sterile capsule and sliding you know a sterile capsule and sliding it under the skin, you know. People get it under the skin, you know. People get it under the skin, you know. People get their ears pierced with you know their ears pierced with you know their ears pierced with you know >> Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Right. Right. >> less less invasive uh procedures. Why >> less less invasive uh procedures. Why >> less less invasive uh procedures. Why not? not? not? >> Well, I mean the question is why would >> Well, I mean the question is why would >> Well, I mean the question is why would that you know is that likely to work? that you know is that likely to work? that you know is that likely to work? You're basically, remember how we were You're basically, remember how we were You're basically, remember how we were just talking about if I do 10 just talking about if I do 10 just talking about if I do 10 experiments, one might work. experiments, one might work. experiments, one might work. Yours isn't a bad idea, but you know, is Yours isn't a bad idea, but you know, is Yours isn't a bad idea, but you know, is there, it's it's more than likely that there, it's it's more than likely that there, it's it's more than likely that one of the nine out of 10, I would one of the nine out of 10, I would one of the nine out of 10, I would guess. guess. guess. >> Sure. Is there a correlate from any >> Sure. Is there a correlate from any >> Sure. Is there a correlate from any studies on animals? studies on animals? studies on animals? We know that in a lot of studies of We know that in a lot of studies of We know that in a lot of studies of cancer and tumors, I used to see these cancer and tumors, I used to see these cancer and tumors, I used to see these mice down in the vivarium. They would mice down in the vivarium. They would mice down in the vivarium. They would slide tumors under the skin and study slide tumors under the skin and study slide tumors under the skin and study them and give animals drugs or give them and give animals drugs or give them and give animals drugs or give animals stuff. And animals stuff. And animals stuff. And tumors are happy to thrive in novel tumors are happy to thrive in novel tumors are happy to thrive in novel environments. So why wouldn't healthy environments. So why wouldn't healthy environments. So why wouldn't healthy cells? cells? cells? >> No, I think you can. I think one of the >> No, I think you can. I think one of the >> No, I think you can. I think one of the things that comes into play a little bit things that comes into play a little bit things that comes into play a little bit about that that's more about, you know, about that that's more about, you know, about that that's more about, you know, um, um, um, replacing an organ with one that might replacing an organ with one that might replacing an organ with one that might be better is that at some point if you be better is that at some point if you be better is that at some point if you come in, so one of the the challenges of come in, so one of the the challenges of come in, so one of the the challenges of tissue engineering is if you want to tissue engineering is if you want to tissue engineering is if you want to bring in new genes, bring in new genes, bring in new genes, the vector, the material that the the the vector, the material that the the the vector, the material that the the the the the surrounding, whether you're the the the surrounding, whether you're the the the surrounding, whether you're bringing it using a virus to you know, bringing it using a virus to you know, bringing it using a virus to you know, to bring it into those cells that you're to bring it into those cells that you're to bring it into those cells that you're going to now put into the person, going to now put into the person, going to now put into the person, whether it's a virus or a a small piece whether it's a virus or a a small piece whether it's a virus or a a small piece of DNA called plasmid, of DNA called plasmid, of DNA called plasmid, you effectively are giving that a new you effectively are giving that a new you effectively are giving that a new bit of identity. bit of identity. bit of identity. And when that when you go to transplant And when that when you go to transplant And when that when you go to transplant that organ back in, it's seen as that organ back in, it's seen as that organ back in, it's seen as foreign. And it's it's just like you foreign. And it's it's just like you foreign. And it's it's just like you just put an infected cell in you, you just put an infected cell in you, you just put an infected cell in you, you know, as far as the immune system knows, know, as far as the immune system knows, know, as far as the immune system knows, all of a sudden there's a cell with a all of a sudden there's a cell with a all of a sudden there's a cell with a huge number of new things being huge number of new things being huge number of new things being expressed, and some of them viral, expressed, and some of them viral, expressed, and some of them viral, literally. literally. literally. So, you know, that's a that represents So, you know, that's a that represents So, you know, that's a that represents an issue, I think, when we talk about an issue, I think, when we talk about an issue, I think, when we talk about any kind of, you know, sort of any kind of, you know, sort of any kind of, you know, sort of engineering at the engineering at the engineering at the you know, the moment is is if you you know, the moment is is if you you know, the moment is is if you engineer a system to be maybe better, engineer a system to be maybe better, engineer a system to be maybe better, the immune system isn't necessarily the immune system isn't necessarily the immune system isn't necessarily going to want better. going to want better. going to want better. And and so you have to overcome this And and so you have to overcome this And and so you have to overcome this issue of tolerance maybe at the same issue of tolerance maybe at the same issue of tolerance maybe at the same time. And and and again, that's why that time. And and and again, that's why that time. And and and again, that's why that particular experiment, depending on what particular experiment, depending on what particular experiment, depending on what you're putting under the kidney capsule you're putting under the kidney capsule you're putting under the kidney capsule or whatever, it matters what the immune or whatever, it matters what the immune or whatever, it matters what the immune state is and what that thing is as to state is and what that thing is as to state is and what that thing is as to whether your immune system's going to whether your immune system's going to whether your immune system's going to let it fly. let it fly. let it fly. >> I'm not considering doing this. I just I >> I'm not considering doing this. I just I >> I'm not considering doing this. I just I I think we are I don't know how old you I think we are I don't know how old you I think we are I don't know how old you are, but I I can guess based on some of are, but I I can guess based on some of are, but I I can guess based on some of mutual friends we have, but I'm guessing mutual friends we have, but I'm guessing mutual friends we have, but I'm guessing that a lot of people that a lot of people that a lot of people who are able to understand speech, who are able to understand speech, who are able to understand speech, they're old enough to understand speech, they're old enough to understand speech, they're old enough to understand speech, are thinking that in our lifetime are thinking that in our lifetime are thinking that in our lifetime we are going to be able to use our own we are going to be able to use our own we are going to be able to use our own cells or peptides or synthetic versions cells or peptides or synthetic versions cells or peptides or synthetic versions of peptides from our own cells and and of peptides from our own cells and and of peptides from our own cells and and so forth to to overcome a lot of the so forth to to overcome a lot of the so forth to to overcome a lot of the issues that our parents and grandparents issues that our parents and grandparents issues that our parents and grandparents were not able to overcome. were not able to overcome. were not able to overcome. >> You know, with regards to like the >> You know, with regards to like the >> You know, with regards to like the peptide side of things and even the peptide side of things and even the peptide side of things and even the cells, and this is maybe where you're cells, and this is maybe where you're cells, and this is maybe where you're going with space, is that context does going with space, is that context does going with space, is that context does matter matter matter for the immune system. So for the immune system. So for the immune system. So and and it matters for all biological and and it matters for all biological and and it matters for all biological systems. I'll just give you an example. systems. I'll just give you an example. systems. I'll just give you an example. We did a study of of wound healing We did a study of of wound healing We did a study of of wound healing some years ago. some years ago. some years ago. And if you have a wound in a mouse And if you have a wound in a mouse And if you have a wound in a mouse that's maybe just a like you know, if that's maybe just a like you know, if that's maybe just a like you know, if you ever have a melanoma removed, they you ever have a melanoma removed, they you ever have a melanoma removed, they do a punch biopsy. It's a little circle. do a punch biopsy. It's a little circle. do a punch biopsy. It's a little circle. So you can do that in the back of a So you can do that in the back of a So you can do that in the back of a mouse and then you can watch the wound mouse and then you can watch the wound mouse and then you can watch the wound healing happen. healing happen. healing happen. The there's zones within there where The there's zones within there where The there's zones within there where certain biology is really important to certain biology is really important to certain biology is really important to be happening. And then so so so imagine be happening. And then so so so imagine be happening. And then so so so imagine the the wound is like this and it's the the wound is like this and it's the the wound is like this and it's open. The cells like one layer back are open. The cells like one layer back are open. The cells like one layer back are doing certain things, but the other ones doing certain things, but the other ones doing certain things, but the other ones behind that are also induced to do behind that are also induced to do behind that are also induced to do something. The wound isn't just something. The wound isn't just something. The wound isn't just this area. It's it's actually sensed all this area. It's it's actually sensed all this area. It's it's actually sensed all like a gradient almost like the neurons. like a gradient almost like the neurons. like a gradient almost like the neurons. And so these cells need to do different And so these cells need to do different And so these cells need to do different things than these cells. So if you things than these cells. So if you things than these cells. So if you wanted to administer some, you know, wanted to administer some, you know, wanted to administer some, you know, like like a peptide or even just a cell like like a peptide or even just a cell like like a peptide or even just a cell type, you have to be a little bit type, you have to be a little bit type, you have to be a little bit conscious of like where it's going to do conscious of like where it's going to do conscious of like where it's going to do the work you want it to do. And the the work you want it to do. And the the work you want it to do. And the natural system does that naturally. Like natural system does that naturally. Like natural system does that naturally. Like the cells on the inside actually the cells on the inside actually the cells on the inside actually instruct the cells one layer back. instruct the cells one layer back. instruct the cells one layer back. But you don't necessarily want everybody But you don't necessarily want everybody But you don't necessarily want everybody getting the same signal. So like getting the same signal. So like getting the same signal. So like development happens that way. You know development happens that way. You know development happens that way. You know about gradients and we talked about this about gradients and we talked about this about gradients and we talked about this earlier that there's gradients. So So I earlier that there's gradients. So So I earlier that there's gradients. So So I think one of the tricks that we don't think one of the tricks that we don't think one of the tricks that we don't really understand about this is when is really understand about this is when is really understand about this is when is something good for a process and when is something good for a process and when is something good for a process and when is it only good when it's given in the it only good when it's given in the it only good when it's given in the right dose at the right time? right dose at the right time? right dose at the right time? And I think that's one of the tricks And I think that's one of the tricks And I think that's one of the tricks about some of these things. And about some of these things. And about some of these things. And again, that's where, you know, both in again, that's where, you know, both in again, that's where, you know, both in the lab and you know, like I I would say the lab and you know, like I I would say the lab and you know, like I I would say that more so ever in in in our lives, that more so ever in in in our lives, that more so ever in in in our lives, you know, we're seeing, you know, people you know, we're seeing, you know, people you know, we're seeing, you know, people kind of like experimenting with things kind of like experimenting with things kind of like experimenting with things on themselves. on themselves. on themselves. And one of the sad parts about this, we And one of the sad parts about this, we And one of the sad parts about this, we don't capture a lot of data therefore, don't capture a lot of data therefore, don't capture a lot of data therefore, you know, cuz it's not seen as a study you know, cuz it's not seen as a study you know, cuz it's not seen as a study and we can't say everybody that took and we can't say everybody that took and we can't say everybody that took this gets this result and and then you this gets this result and and then you this gets this result and and then you have this rise of things on the internet have this rise of things on the internet have this rise of things on the internet of of anecdotes that become seen as of of anecdotes that become seen as of of anecdotes that become seen as data. Like I took this thing and this data. Like I took this thing and this data. Like I took this thing and this happened. And that's, you know, I I can happened. And that's, you know, I I can happened. And that's, you know, I I can drink this drink and it doesn't mean drink this drink and it doesn't mean drink this drink and it doesn't mean great happen to me or something bad great happen to me or something bad great happen to me or something bad happen to me. It might have nothing happen to me. It might have nothing happen to me. It might have nothing >> to do with the drink, right? >> to do with the drink, right? >> to do with the drink, right? >> You know, that that issue is one that I >> You know, that that issue is one that I >> You know, that that issue is one that I think it's really um think it's really um think it's really um is really critical in in this in this is really critical in in this in this is really critical in in this in this window of time right now. And window of time right now. And window of time right now. And I don't know what you think about the I don't know what you think about the I don't know what you think about the idea that people, you know, do idea that people, you know, do idea that people, you know, do experiments on themselves. I I think we experiments on themselves. I I think we experiments on themselves. I I think we all want to improve ourselves. We all do all want to improve ourselves. We all do all want to improve ourselves. We all do all I would do some kind of experiments all I would do some kind of experiments all I would do some kind of experiments ourselves. Like you read a book, you're ourselves. Like you read a book, you're ourselves. Like you read a book, you're trying to improve yourself, right? Um trying to improve yourself, right? Um trying to improve yourself, right? Um the physical one gets a bit tricky when the physical one gets a bit tricky when the physical one gets a bit tricky when you know, you're not sure whether you know, you're not sure whether you know, you're not sure whether something's going to be dangerous or something's going to be dangerous or something's going to be dangerous or not. But not. But not. But >> I'm not and I'm not promoting that >> I'm not and I'm not promoting that >> I'm not and I'm not promoting that people do this. I think that of course people do this. I think that of course people do this. I think that of course you wouldn't would want to see you wouldn't would want to see you wouldn't would want to see preclinical, clinical and and other preclinical, clinical and and other preclinical, clinical and and other um trials for this. um trials for this. um trials for this. >> I think I would personally. I mean, just >> I think I would personally. I mean, just >> I think I would personally. I mean, just personally. personally. personally. >> I'm I there are a few areas well where I >> I'm I there are a few areas well where I >> I'm I there are a few areas well where I am um a bit more adventurous, but for am um a bit more adventurous, but for am um a bit more adventurous, but for the most part I'm I like, you know, the most part I'm I like, you know, the most part I'm I like, you know, based on my training and background, based on my training and background, based on my training and background, [clears throat] I have to orient toward, [clears throat] I have to orient toward, [clears throat] I have to orient toward, you know, I I'd like a bunch of Let me you know, I I'd like a bunch of Let me you know, I I'd like a bunch of Let me put it this way. I'd like to a bunch of put it this way. I'd like to a bunch of put it this way. I'd like to a bunch of other people to do it first. other people to do it first. other people to do it first. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like who It's fun to be first unless >> Like who It's fun to be first unless >> Like who It's fun to be first unless you're doing something really stupid and you're doing something really stupid and you're doing something really stupid and that can get you killed, in which case that can get you killed, in which case that can get you killed, in which case like let other people go first. like let other people go first. like let other people go first. >> Yeah. Well, I think a good example that >> Yeah. Well, I think a good example that >> Yeah. Well, I think a good example that right now is and this is you know, sort right now is and this is you know, sort right now is and this is you know, sort of nationwide or even international, is of nationwide or even international, is of nationwide or even international, is vaccine hesitancy. I know this is a vaccine hesitancy. I know this is a vaccine hesitancy. I know this is a touchy topic, so we can touchy topic, so we can touchy topic, so we can >> No, but you can feel free >> No, but you can feel free >> No, but you can feel free >> open. Well, I'll just point out that >> open. Well, I'll just point out that >> open. Well, I'll just point out that that the one group that's completely, no that the one group that's completely, no that the one group that's completely, no matter whether they're hesitant against matter whether they're hesitant against matter whether they're hesitant against childhood vaccines and the number of childhood vaccines and the number of childhood vaccines and the number of them we get and the the fact that the them we get and the the fact that the them we get and the the fact that the government makes you take them and these government makes you take them and these government makes you take them and these sorts of things, sorts of things, sorts of things, if those people have cancer, if those people have cancer, if those people have cancer, they're very interested in vaccines cuz they're very interested in vaccines cuz they're very interested in vaccines cuz it's a there's really good data that you it's a there's really good data that you it's a there's really good data that you can promote more immune cells against can promote more immune cells against can promote more immune cells against the um tumor by the um tumor by the um tumor by making a vaccine that consists of some making a vaccine that consists of some making a vaccine that consists of some of the proteins and peptides that are of the proteins and peptides that are of the proteins and peptides that are unique to the tumor and did not unique to the tumor and did not unique to the tumor and did not different from you. And you introduce different from you. And you introduce different from you. And you introduce those as if you would introduce the those as if you would introduce the those as if you would introduce the virus or anything in a in a childhood virus or anything in a in a childhood virus or anything in a in a childhood vaccine, similar concept. Um just vaccine, similar concept. Um just vaccine, similar concept. Um just different different different peptides. They're peptides from the peptides. They're peptides from the peptides. They're peptides from the tumor. And and in those situations, it's tumor. And and in those situations, it's tumor. And and in those situations, it's context, right? So if if you and I had context, right? So if if you and I had context, right? So if if you and I had cancer and we don't have the the cancer and we don't have the the cancer and we don't have the the conventional cures are not going to work conventional cures are not going to work conventional cures are not going to work on us. We know there we know statistics on us. We know there we know statistics on us. We know there we know statistics really well. Chemo is not very good for really well. Chemo is not very good for really well. Chemo is not very good for a lot of chemo and cancers and but it's a lot of chemo and cancers and but it's a lot of chemo and cancers and but it's the only thing we got. But if you have the only thing we got. But if you have the only thing we got. But if you have access to something that's relatively access to something that's relatively access to something that's relatively new and particularly vaccines despite new and particularly vaccines despite new and particularly vaccines despite what, you know, some people worry about, what, you know, some people worry about, what, you know, some people worry about, they're they're they're pretty safe. Um and so the the certain pretty safe. Um and so the the certain pretty safe. Um and so the the certain die versus try out a vaccine drives a die versus try out a vaccine drives a die versus try out a vaccine drives a lot of people to be interested in lot of people to be interested in lot of people to be interested in vaccines. And I would say yeah, in that vaccines. And I would say yeah, in that vaccines. And I would say yeah, in that case, it's a really, you know, you can case, it's a really, you know, you can case, it's a really, you know, you can see where people's is their their see where people's is their their see where people's is their their question about whether they're going to question about whether they're going to question about whether they're going to try something or not is very context try something or not is very context try something or not is very context dependent. dependent. dependent. >> Very. I think uh I don't want to go too >> Very. I think uh I don't want to go too >> Very. I think uh I don't want to go too deep into the vaccine debate and I don't deep into the vaccine debate and I don't deep into the vaccine debate and I don't want to be a spokesperson for either want to be a spokesperson for either want to be a spokesperson for either side because that's not my role today, side because that's not my role today, side because that's not my role today, but but but >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think that the >> I think that the >> I think that the um um um the what you refer to as vaccine the what you refer to as vaccine the what you refer to as vaccine hesitancy actually comes back to an hesitancy actually comes back to an hesitancy actually comes back to an earlier issue that maybe you'd be earlier issue that maybe you'd be earlier issue that maybe you'd be willing to comment on. willing to comment on. willing to comment on. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Um which is I think there are a very >> Um which is I think there are a very >> Um which is I think there are a very large number of people for whom they are large number of people for whom they are large number of people for whom they are neither anti-vaccine neither anti-vaccine neither anti-vaccine nor super pro, but they are um they're nor super pro, but they are um they're nor super pro, but they are um they're asking about timing and combinations. asking about timing and combinations. asking about timing and combinations. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> They're saying, "Okay, listen." And we >> They're saying, "Okay, listen." And we >> They're saying, "Okay, listen." And we had Jay Bhattacharya on here and I've had Jay Bhattacharya on here and I've had Jay Bhattacharya on here and I've had had had several others who said, "Maybe there several others who said, "Maybe there several others who said, "Maybe there should be an investigation of the should be an investigation of the should be an investigation of the spacing of these things. How many? Um spacing of these things. How many? Um spacing of these things. How many? Um how critical it is to do at a given age, how critical it is to do at a given age, how critical it is to do at a given age, you know, um you know, um you know, um and on and on." We could pick any and on and on." We could pick any and on and on." We could pick any vaccine for that reason. And as an vaccine for that reason. And as an vaccine for that reason. And as an immunologist, immunologist, immunologist, do any of those questions make sense to do any of those questions make sense to do any of those questions make sense to ask? I mean, I could see how, you know, ask? I mean, I could see how, you know, ask? I mean, I could see how, you know, bombarding the immune the young immune bombarding the immune the young immune bombarding the immune the young immune system with a lot of vaccines is a very system with a lot of vaccines is a very system with a lot of vaccines is a very different thing than spacing out the uh different thing than spacing out the uh different thing than spacing out the uh delivery of those vaccines. Yeah. I'm delivery of those vaccines. Yeah. I'm delivery of those vaccines. Yeah. I'm not saying don't give them all. I'm not saying don't give them all. I'm not saying don't give them all. I'm saying saying saying over what time window does one give over what time window does one give over what time window does one give them? them? them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think a lot of people many more people >> I think a lot of people many more people >> I think a lot of people many more people are asking that question. are asking that question. are asking that question. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just a quieter murmur >> It's just a quieter murmur >> It's just a quieter murmur than our um than our um than our um saying, "Listen, we don't want to take saying, "Listen, we don't want to take saying, "Listen, we don't want to take any of these things." any of these things." any of these things." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or we don't want our kids to take any of >> Or we don't want our kids to take any of >> Or we don't want our kids to take any of these. these. these. >> I agree with that, too. And I I think >> I agree with that, too. And I I think >> I agree with that, too. And I I think there's some fair aspect to which most there's some fair aspect to which most there's some fair aspect to which most of these vaccines were not studied in of these vaccines were not studied in of these vaccines were not studied in the context when they were studied of of the context when they were studied of of the context when they were studied of of what it does, you know, in in in com- in what it does, you know, in in in com- in what it does, you know, in in in com- in in combination and in in these sorts of in combination and in in these sorts of in combination and in in these sorts of timings. timings. timings. The fact is that, you know, the the The fact is that, you know, the the The fact is that, you know, the the evidence that there's any that there's evidence that there's any that there's evidence that there's any that there's bad things happening doesn't look to me, bad things happening doesn't look to me, bad things happening doesn't look to me, you know, tremendously strong. It's you know, tremendously strong. It's you know, tremendously strong. It's almost like anecdotal sort of almost like anecdotal sort of almost like anecdotal sort of information. information. information. >> So, unless it's your kid. >> So, unless it's your kid. >> So, unless it's your kid. >> Unless it's your kid, in which case >> Unless it's your kid, in which case >> Unless it's your kid, in which case you're going to look for an explanation. you're going to look for an explanation. you're going to look for an explanation. So, I I don't know. So, I I don't know. So, I I don't know. >> Just being fair as long as we're >> Just being fair as long as we're >> Just being fair as long as we're admitting psychology as a factor. admitting psychology as a factor. admitting psychology as a factor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, there there's fairness on both sides of there there's fairness on both sides of there there's fairness on both sides of that discussion. And I think that discussion. And I think that discussion. And I think I think that almost certainly where we I think that almost certainly where we I think that almost certainly where we are now, there's probably ways to put are now, there's probably ways to put are now, there's probably ways to put together vaccines and together vaccines and together vaccines and certainly more convenient ways. It's I I certainly more convenient ways. It's I I certainly more convenient ways. It's I I I as as a parent I I actually had I as as a parent I I actually had I as as a parent I I actually had something very similar where I delayed, something very similar where I delayed, something very similar where I delayed, you know, my first daughter's one of her you know, my first daughter's one of her you know, my first daughter's one of her vaccines. Partly because I know that vaccines. Partly because I know that vaccines. Partly because I know that that as a, you know, like there's a that as a, you know, like there's a that as a, you know, like there's a certain element to which when we design certain element to which when we design certain element to which when we design a protocol, like the the protocol for a protocol, like the the protocol for a protocol, like the the protocol for immunotherapy of cancer for patients was immunotherapy of cancer for patients was immunotherapy of cancer for patients was was actually based a little bit on the was actually based a little bit on the was actually based a little bit on the mouse work a lot on the mouse work that mouse work a lot on the mouse work that mouse work a lot on the mouse work that I did. You can imagine that mice and I did. You can imagine that mice and I did. You can imagine that mice and humans are quite different. But, that is humans are quite different. But, that is humans are quite different. But, that is the protocol. Protocol is protocol, and the protocol. Protocol is protocol, and the protocol. Protocol is protocol, and that's how it's done in medicine. And that's how it's done in medicine. And that's how it's done in medicine. And that's because you have a fairly good that's because you have a fairly good that's because you have a fairly good sense of the safety of it because of sense of the safety of it because of sense of the safety of it because of statistics. statistics. statistics. But, that isn't to say that it's the But, that isn't to say that it's the But, that isn't to say that it's the only protocol that would work. And I only protocol that would work. And I only protocol that would work. And I think you're getting at this concept of think you're getting at this concept of think you're getting at this concept of like could there be at least a more like could there be at least a more like could there be at least a more convenient one? convenient one? convenient one? >> Or one that's the safest. >> Or one that's the safest. >> Or one that's the safest. >> Or safest, or even one that is less >> Or safest, or even one that is less >> Or safest, or even one that is less disruptive to the lives of the children disruptive to the lives of the children disruptive to the lives of the children and the parents. I We we delayed one of and the parents. I We we delayed one of and the parents. I We we delayed one of our kids' vaccines, you know, by just a our kids' vaccines, you know, by just a our kids' vaccines, you know, by just a month or something because uh she had month or something because uh she had month or something because uh she had not been feeling well. not been feeling well. not been feeling well. Just straight up. And And it is true, Just straight up. And And it is true, Just straight up. And And it is true, you know. And I'd say that a couple of you know. And I'd say that a couple of you know. And I'd say that a couple of vaccines have come out there I've had vaccines have come out there I've had vaccines have come out there I've had recently, shingles one is a good recently, shingles one is a good recently, shingles one is a good example. I had a other day is knocked me example. I had a other day is knocked me example. I had a other day is knocked me completely out. And then you know, it's completely out. And then you know, it's completely out. And then you know, it's very very heavily advented, so it's very very heavily advented, so it's very very heavily advented, so it's clearly it's you know, it's having a clearly it's you know, it's having a clearly it's you know, it's having a Um does it does it need to be? You know, Um does it does it need to be? You know, Um does it does it need to be? You know, I actually don't know. I don't know what I actually don't know. I don't know what I actually don't know. I don't know what studies were done. And and there's kind studies were done. And and there's kind studies were done. And and there's kind of an aspect to which you know, I don't of an aspect to which you know, I don't of an aspect to which you know, I don't know that we're all um being shielded know that we're all um being shielded know that we're all um being shielded from the information, but I don't know from the information, but I don't know from the information, but I don't know that we all know how to read the that we all know how to read the that we all know how to read the information about how these regimens information about how these regimens information about how these regimens were chosen. were chosen. were chosen. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um some of them are chosen by competing >> Um some of them are chosen by competing >> Um some of them are chosen by competing pharma pharma companies that each make pharma pharma companies that each make pharma pharma companies that each make their own you know, materials and their own you know, materials and their own you know, materials and you know, I again I think there's a you know, I again I think there's a you know, I again I think there's a there's a lot in this question. I don't there's a lot in this question. I don't there's a lot in this question. I don't know how much of it also represents know how much of it also represents know how much of it also represents the one problem of science that I could the one problem of science that I could the one problem of science that I could talk about is this um this issue that's talk about is this um this issue that's talk about is this um this issue that's a lot of science treat science as a kind a lot of science treat science as a kind a lot of science treat science as a kind of a papacy. Like we know the language, of a papacy. Like we know the language, of a papacy. Like we know the language, we know the facts and and we probably we know the facts and and we probably we know the facts and and we probably don't have time to tell you why we think don't have time to tell you why we think don't have time to tell you why we think this and where where the holes are. this and where where the holes are. this and where where the holes are. >> Excuse me for interrupting, but you >> Excuse me for interrupting, but you >> Excuse me for interrupting, but you know, a huge know, a huge know, a huge basis of this podcast is to counter basis of this podcast is to counter basis of this podcast is to counter exactly that. exactly that. exactly that. >> I mean I know all these incredibly >> I mean I know all these incredibly >> I mean I know all these incredibly smart, incredibly well-meaning smart, incredibly well-meaning smart, incredibly well-meaning people who have lives of their own, people who have lives of their own, people who have lives of their own, health lives of their own, health health lives of their own, health health lives of their own, health challenges of their own, kids of their challenges of their own, kids of their challenges of their own, kids of their own own own and on and on and no one was hearing and on and on and no one was hearing and on and on and no one was hearing from them. from them. from them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It it was and as things get more >> It it was and as things get more >> It it was and as things get more politicized, there's less incentive to politicized, there's less incentive to politicized, there's less incentive to give nuance. I actually really give nuance. I actually really give nuance. I actually really appreciate you providing some nuance on appreciate you providing some nuance on appreciate you providing some nuance on the I mean it's clear where you stand on the I mean it's clear where you stand on the I mean it's clear where you stand on vaccines generally based on what you've vaccines generally based on what you've vaccines generally based on what you've said, but you're you're offering um said, but you're you're offering um said, but you're you're offering um perhaps the opportunity for or better perhaps the opportunity for or better perhaps the opportunity for or better understanding and certainly of the understanding and certainly of the understanding and certainly of the information. information. information. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's a huge problem. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's a huge problem. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's a huge problem. >> Yeah. Well, I guess it's it's one of >> Yeah. Well, I guess it's it's one of >> Yeah. Well, I guess it's it's one of those ones that I can only speak about those ones that I can only speak about those ones that I can only speak about what I did. Right? As a as a as a human. what I did. Right? As a as a as a human. what I did. Right? As a as a as a human. When I had kids and I looked at the data When I had kids and I looked at the data When I had kids and I looked at the data and I have probably better capacity than and I have probably better capacity than and I have probably better capacity than some anyways to read it and some anyways to read it and some anyways to read it and look at risk versus harm, you know, the look at risk versus harm, you know, the look at risk versus harm, you know, the percentages of these things. I percentages of these things. I percentages of these things. I absolutely you know, vaccinated kids and absolutely you know, vaccinated kids and absolutely you know, vaccinated kids and that was it seemed like it seems even that was it seemed like it seems even that was it seemed like it seems even now like a a reasonable no-brainer. But now like a a reasonable no-brainer. But now like a a reasonable no-brainer. But I just told you too that I I asked to go I just told you too that I I asked to go I just told you too that I I asked to go off protocol off protocol off protocol because at some point I know these because at some point I know these because at some point I know these protocols have a little bit of like protocols have a little bit of like protocols have a little bit of like again, they were designed on a one again, they were designed on a one again, they were designed on a one study. It doesn't mean that it doesn't study. It doesn't mean that it doesn't study. It doesn't mean that it doesn't work if you wait another month. In fact, work if you wait another month. In fact, work if you wait another month. In fact, if you do if you've done enough mouse if you do if you've done enough mouse if you do if you've done enough mouse experiences I have, you know that when experiences I have, you know that when experiences I have, you know that when you vaccinate on a slightly different you vaccinate on a slightly different you vaccinate on a slightly different schedule, you can still end up with the schedule, you can still end up with the schedule, you can still end up with the same outcome. You know, that is same outcome. You know, that is same outcome. You know, that is protection. protection. protection. You know, with slightly different You know, with slightly different You know, with slightly different schedules. It's not that convenient for schedules. It's not that convenient for schedules. It's not that convenient for doctors and hospitals and and even doctors and hospitals and and even doctors and hospitals and and even sometimes for patients to get off on, sometimes for patients to get off on, sometimes for patients to get off on, you know, like weird schedule and then you know, like weird schedule and then you know, like weird schedule and then you forget a dose and then it isn't as you forget a dose and then it isn't as you forget a dose and then it isn't as effective, right? So, there's there's effective, right? So, there's there's effective, right? So, there's there's efficacy that comes with, you know, efficacy that comes with, you know, efficacy that comes with, you know, trying to follow the protocol and trying to follow the protocol and trying to follow the protocol and because the protocol has because the protocol has because the protocol has some convenience built into it, that some convenience built into it, that some convenience built into it, that means you're going to do it. It's um means you're going to do it. It's um means you're going to do it. It's um it's like it's like brushing your teeth it's like it's like brushing your teeth it's like it's like brushing your teeth in the morning. You do it in the morning in the morning. You do it in the morning in the morning. You do it in the morning and evening is when you do it. And so, and evening is when you do it. And so, and evening is when you do it. And so, you'll do it twice a day. you'll do it twice a day. you'll do it twice a day. So, there's a lot in this. I mean, you So, there's a lot in this. I mean, you So, there's a lot in this. I mean, you know, there's a lot of politics I think know, there's a lot of politics I think know, there's a lot of politics I think involved in in vaccine too that relates involved in in vaccine too that relates involved in in vaccine too that relates to the question of like what point can to the question of like what point can to the question of like what point can the government do tell you what to do, the government do tell you what to do, the government do tell you what to do, which is, you know, it's it's a it's a which is, you know, it's it's a it's a which is, you know, it's it's a it's a surrogate question to the vaccine one. surrogate question to the vaccine one. surrogate question to the vaccine one. Where vaccine is, you know, if there's a Where vaccine is, you know, if there's a Where vaccine is, you know, if there's a harm, who gets to choose with the harm harm, who gets to choose with the harm harm, who gets to choose with the harm and benefit and then and benefit and then and benefit and then how resources are given out for like how resources are given out for like how resources are given out for like schools and you know, we know all these schools and you know, we know all these schools and you know, we know all these we know all these sort of nuances. From we know all these sort of nuances. From we know all these sort of nuances. From the science standpoint, I don't think the science standpoint, I don't think the science standpoint, I don't think you want to wipe out the baby with the you want to wipe out the baby with the you want to wipe out the baby with the bathwater. I don't think you personally bathwater. I don't think you personally bathwater. I don't think you personally like I wouldn't not immunize my kids. like I wouldn't not immunize my kids. like I wouldn't not immunize my kids. Could there be additional studies about Could there be additional studies about Could there be additional studies about the combination of these into like fewer the combination of these into like fewer the combination of these into like fewer shots? I think so. shots? I think so. shots? I think so. See why not. Here's where you get the See why not. Here's where you get the See why not. Here's where you get the financial rise. What's the benefit to financial rise. What's the benefit to financial rise. What's the benefit to any pharma company of doing that? any pharma company of doing that? any pharma company of doing that? >> Well, I think this is again, I I have >> Well, I think this is again, I I have >> Well, I think this is again, I I have [clears throat] to be careful that I [clears throat] to be careful that I [clears throat] to be careful that I don't place myself into an advocacy don't place myself into an advocacy don't place myself into an advocacy group that I'm not. group that I'm not. group that I'm not. I'm I look at everything on a I'm I look at everything on a I'm I look at everything on a case-by-case basis. case-by-case basis. case-by-case basis. I really try to do that. But the you I really try to do that. But the you I really try to do that. But the you know, and I've know, and I've know, and I've tried to be in recent years more open to tried to be in recent years more open to tried to be in recent years more open to the to at least understanding what the the to at least understanding what the the to at least understanding what the anti-big pharma stance is really about. anti-big pharma stance is really about. anti-big pharma stance is really about. You know, it comes up a lot around You know, it comes up a lot around You know, it comes up a lot around SSRIs, but you talk to somebody with SSRIs, but you talk to somebody with SSRIs, but you talk to somebody with clinical grade OCD and they will tell clinical grade OCD and they will tell clinical grade OCD and they will tell you that SSRIs saved their life. you that SSRIs saved their life. you that SSRIs saved their life. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, you go, "Okay, well, you know, so we >> So, you go, "Okay, well, you know, so we >> So, you go, "Okay, well, you know, so we can say all we want about pharma." Are can say all we want about pharma." Are can say all we want about pharma." Are you talking about people getting in you talking about people getting in you talking about people getting in taking insulin or you know, until taking insulin or you know, until taking insulin or you know, until recently the GLPs were mostly available recently the GLPs were mostly available recently the GLPs were mostly available through pharma. Now, they're sort of through pharma. Now, they're sort of through pharma. Now, they're sort of it's kind of wild west. People are it's kind of wild west. People are it's kind of wild west. People are microdosing them from all sorts of microdosing them from all sorts of microdosing them from all sorts of compounding pharmacies as their own compounding pharmacies as their own compounding pharmacies as their own issues and so on. issues and so on. issues and so on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, my sense is that the frustration >> But, my sense is that the frustration >> But, my sense is that the frustration around the kind of dictatorial, like, around the kind of dictatorial, like, around the kind of dictatorial, like, you're going to do this at this point you're going to do this at this point you're going to do this at this point because this or else, like, you're because this or else, like, you're because this or else, like, you're persona non grata. persona non grata. persona non grata. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That kind of like people not people >> That kind of like people not people >> That kind of like people not people being shunned in both directions, in being shunned in both directions, in being shunned in both directions, in either direction, rather. That's either direction, rather. That's either direction, rather. That's you know, that that's really the source you know, that that's really the source you know, that that's really the source of the problem. There there really of the problem. There there really of the problem. There there really hasn't ever been a conversation quite hasn't ever been a conversation quite hasn't ever been a conversation quite like this. like this. like this. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. >> At least not when I've seen publicly. >> At least not when I've seen publicly. >> At least not when I've seen publicly. Yeah, there are a lot of labs that are Yeah, there are a lot of labs that are Yeah, there are a lot of labs that are going to devote themselves to this. going to devote themselves to this. going to devote themselves to this. People will wage the argument that and I People will wage the argument that and I People will wage the argument that and I don't know if this is actually true, but don't know if this is actually true, but don't know if this is actually true, but that the pharma companies are protected that the pharma companies are protected that the pharma companies are protected against lawsuits about vaccine injuries. against lawsuits about vaccine injuries. against lawsuits about vaccine injuries. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I mean, I think that probably is >> I mean, I think that probably is >> I mean, I think that probably is frustrating to very frustrating, excuse frustrating to very frustrating, excuse frustrating to very frustrating, excuse me, to a parent whose kid seemed me, to a parent whose kid seemed me, to a parent whose kid seemed essentially fine, got a vaccine and 3 essentially fine, got a vaccine and 3 essentially fine, got a vaccine and 3 days later started exhibiting symptoms days later started exhibiting symptoms days later started exhibiting symptoms that then set them off on a course that that then set them off on a course that that then set them off on a course that was uh really really tragic. was uh really really tragic. was uh really really tragic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and those groups are the ones that >> Um and those groups are the ones that >> Um and those groups are the ones that have have have accumulated the most oomph out there. accumulated the most oomph out there. accumulated the most oomph out there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if you think about the those >> And if you think about the those >> And if you think about the those parents, totally understandable parents, totally understandable parents, totally understandable >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> why they would feel that way. Whether or >> why they would feel that way. Whether or >> why they would feel that way. Whether or not the basis of their feelings is not the basis of their feelings is not the basis of their feelings is exactly right, I can't speak to, but you exactly right, I can't speak to, but you exactly right, I can't speak to, but you can understand if your kid is one way, can understand if your kid is one way, can understand if your kid is one way, walk out of the doctor's office is is walk out of the doctor's office is is walk out of the doctor's office is is another way. another way. another way. And you can't do anything about it. And you can't do anything about it. And you can't do anything about it. That's got to be super frustrating. I That's got to be super frustrating. I That's got to be super frustrating. I mean, beyond maddening. mean, beyond maddening. mean, beyond maddening. >> And and and and the question is, what >> And and and and the question is, what >> And and and and the question is, what could you have done differently? I think could you have done differently? I think could you have done differently? I think is uh in those situations, having been is uh in those situations, having been is uh in those situations, having been in them, not that exact situation where in them, not that exact situation where in them, not that exact situation where you said, "Oh, now it's done and now I you said, "Oh, now it's done and now I you said, "Oh, now it's done and now I can't go backwards." can't go backwards." can't go backwards." >> And you did that to them. This is the >> And you did that to them. This is the >> And you did that to them. This is the thing that This is the thing I think thing that This is the thing I think thing that This is the thing I think that is not often discussed is that the that is not often discussed is that the that is not often discussed is that the the parents made that choice on the the parents made that choice on the the parents made that choice on the basis of what they thought was the best. basis of what they thought was the best. basis of what they thought was the best. So that there's a certain um So that there's a certain um So that there's a certain um guilt slash anger. I mean, there's a guilt slash anger. I mean, there's a guilt slash anger. I mean, there's a whole psychology to it that's completely whole psychology to it that's completely whole psychology to it that's completely understandable. understandable. understandable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The kid didn't wander into the clinic. >> The kid didn't wander into the clinic. >> The kid didn't wander into the clinic. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, on the way >> Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, on the way >> Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, on the way over here, I was thinking about some of over here, I was thinking about some of over here, I was thinking about some of the things that the things that the things that you know, are happening in in uh medical you know, are happening in in uh medical you know, are happening in in uh medical space and then you know, you guys have space and then you know, you guys have space and then you know, you guys have obviously from time to time talk about obviously from time to time talk about obviously from time to time talk about peptides and these sorts of things that peptides and these sorts of things that peptides and these sorts of things that people are using, you know, off-label people are using, you know, off-label people are using, you know, off-label Well, not even off-label, they're just Well, not even off-label, they're just Well, not even off-label, they're just from uh wherever, the internet. And you from uh wherever, the internet. And you from uh wherever, the internet. And you know, that I was thinking, well, you know, that I was thinking, well, you know, that I was thinking, well, you know, there's a funny thing there know, there's a funny thing there know, there's a funny thing there because the legitimacy of pharma because the legitimacy of pharma because the legitimacy of pharma companies has sort of companies has sort of companies has sort of fallen into even worse straits than fallen into even worse straits than fallen into even worse straits than before because I think it I was thinking before because I think it I was thinking before because I think it I was thinking about this, a lot of it does relate to about this, a lot of it does relate to about this, a lot of it does relate to the fact that we are advertised to take the fact that we are advertised to take the fact that we are advertised to take a lot of things that often aren't, you a lot of things that often aren't, you a lot of things that often aren't, you know, the the side effects are worse know, the the side effects are worse know, the the side effects are worse than the than the symptoms that we're than the than the symptoms that we're than the than the symptoms that we're we're leaving and we're leaving and we're leaving and and that sort of uh you know, again, I and that sort of uh you know, again, I and that sort of uh you know, again, I I may find myself like having a bunch of I may find myself like having a bunch of I may find myself like having a bunch of colleagues hate me for talking about colleagues hate me for talking about colleagues hate me for talking about this with you, but I do think it's kind this with you, but I do think it's kind this with you, but I do think it's kind of important at some point to surface of important at some point to surface of important at some point to surface where all this comes from, you know, and where all this comes from, you know, and where all this comes from, you know, and and and the idea that we can do and and the idea that we can do and and the idea that we can do experiments on ourselves, on our own experiments on ourselves, on our own experiments on ourselves, on our own bodies, again, bodies, again, bodies, again, it's quite different to say read a book. it's quite different to say read a book. it's quite different to say read a book. Although you can be infected by we Although you can be infected by we Although you can be infected by we believe like by, you know, scripture and believe like by, you know, scripture and believe like by, you know, scripture and scripture and things and and then your scripture and things and and then your scripture and things and and then your behavior. behavior. behavior. But somehow [snorts] in here this idea But somehow [snorts] in here this idea But somehow [snorts] in here this idea that that that that um you know, we can be told to do that um you know, we can be told to do that um you know, we can be told to do things by people that aren't quite in things by people that aren't quite in things by people that aren't quite in our best interests. our best interests. our best interests. I think it opens up the idea that well, I think it opens up the idea that well, I think it opens up the idea that well, why why can't I choose my best interest? why why can't I choose my best interest? why why can't I choose my best interest? You know, who who are these experts that You know, who who are these experts that You know, who who are these experts that I can't always trust? I can't always trust? I can't always trust? >> What's more American than that after >> What's more American than that after >> What's more American than that after all? all? all? >> it is it is it is part of the pioneering >> it is it is it is part of the pioneering >> it is it is it is part of the pioneering spirit. Like if the if the government's spirit. Like if the if the government's spirit. Like if the if the government's not going to protect my 40 acres, I got not going to protect my 40 acres, I got not going to protect my 40 acres, I got to have a gun and protect myself. And to have a gun and protect myself. And to have a gun and protect myself. And that's that's been a part of our culture that's that's been a part of our culture that's that's been a part of our culture for a very long time. And I think this for a very long time. And I think this for a very long time. And I think this idea of individuality plays into this, idea of individuality plays into this, idea of individuality plays into this, but it could be exacerbated at the but it could be exacerbated at the but it could be exacerbated at the moment by the by the fact that there you moment by the by the fact that there you moment by the by the fact that there you know, haven't always been good know, haven't always been good know, haven't always been good communication with somebody you're communication with somebody you're communication with somebody you're trying to work out and and and maybe trying to work out and and and maybe trying to work out and and and maybe even surfacing of these ideas that are even surfacing of these ideas that are even surfacing of these ideas that are hard to talk about. Like should we trust hard to talk about. Like should we trust hard to talk about. Like should we trust farm companies? I know a lot of people farm companies? I know a lot of people farm companies? I know a lot of people that work for pharma and they really that work for pharma and they really that work for pharma and they really they are doing good. They They, you they are doing good. They They, you they are doing good. They They, you know, they're they're like you and me. know, they're they're like you and me. know, they're they're like you and me. They They really think and they are They They really think and they are They They really think and they are treating disease. They're making really treating disease. They're making really treating disease. They're making really good drugs and they do really good good drugs and they do really good good drugs and they do really good things. But this is not always true. Not things. But this is not always true. Not things. But this is not always true. Not just because of, you know, a bunch of just because of, you know, a bunch of just because of, you know, a bunch of people doing it, it's not always true people doing it, it's not always true people doing it, it's not always true that the subtle best interest of a that the subtle best interest of a that the subtle best interest of a corporation is the same as the best corporation is the same as the best corporation is the same as the best interest of an individual. So, you know, interest of an individual. So, you know, interest of an individual. So, you know, we have to surface that those things we have to surface that those things we have to surface that those things exist. It's not like we have to say that exist. It's not like we have to say that exist. It's not like we have to say that it's right or wrong or whatever, but at it's right or wrong or whatever, but at it's right or wrong or whatever, but at some point those kind of perverse some point those kind of perverse some point those kind of perverse incentives exist. I I wonder why, you incentives exist. I I wonder why, you incentives exist. I I wonder why, you know, like pharma companies haven't um know, like pharma companies haven't um know, like pharma companies haven't um gotten better tests for who's going to gotten better tests for who's going to gotten better tests for who's going to respond to these checkpoint drugs that respond to these checkpoint drugs that respond to these checkpoint drugs that we made. We've had We've had a few we made. We've had We've had a few we made. We've had We've had a few papers that show who are the responders papers that show who are the responders papers that show who are the responders and who are not, but it's still the case and who are not, but it's still the case and who are not, but it's still the case that if you get to come in with that if you get to come in with that if you get to come in with melanoma, even though there's only a 50% melanoma, even though there's only a 50% melanoma, even though there's only a 50% chance you're going to be cured, which chance you're going to be cured, which chance you're going to be cured, which is great. You You used to be zero is great. You You used to be zero is great. You You used to be zero with these drugs. You still take 100% of with these drugs. You still take 100% of with these drugs. You still take 100% of the market takes that drug. the market takes that drug. the market takes that drug. Well, because the 50% that aren't going Well, because the 50% that aren't going Well, because the 50% that aren't going to respond, they don't know who they to respond, they don't know who they to respond, they don't know who they are. are. are. And so everybody takes it. So, the And so everybody takes it. So, the And so everybody takes it. So, the companies that sell those have no companies that sell those have no companies that sell those have no incentive incentive incentive to develop a test. Although again, if to develop a test. Although again, if to develop a test. Although again, if they develop a test that shows who is they develop a test that shows who is they develop a test that shows who is and who isn't going to respond, and who isn't going to respond, and who isn't going to respond, they'll cut their market into 50 in in they'll cut their market into 50 in in they'll cut their market into 50 in in half. half. half. So, I don't think any pharma executives So, I don't think any pharma executives So, I don't think any pharma executives out there going out there going out there going But if there's no there's no positive But if there's no there's no positive But if there's no there's no positive incentive to do that study, to study incentive to do that study, to study incentive to do that study, to study those things. And I think it's kind of those things. And I think it's kind of those things. And I think it's kind of true in some of these other drugs that true in some of these other drugs that true in some of these other drugs that we've been, you know, brought brought we've been, you know, brought brought we've been, you know, brought brought forward, some of which are better and forward, some of which are better and forward, some of which are better and worse than others. We could worse than others. We could worse than others. We could told that this is going to be good for told that this is going to be good for told that this is going to be good for us and and we should take it and and us and and we should take it and and us and and we should take it and and there's a again, you're you're getting there's a again, you're you're getting there's a again, you're you're getting into the American kind of like into the American kind of like into the American kind of like mentality, which is a say, well, some mentality, which is a say, well, some mentality, which is a say, well, some point if you fool me twice or, you know, point if you fool me twice or, you know, point if you fool me twice or, you know, I'm not going to believe it and and I I'm not going to believe it and and I I'm not going to believe it and and I might not believe it against the entire might not believe it against the entire might not believe it against the entire spectrum of things called science. spectrum of things called science. spectrum of things called science. And the problem is that there's people And the problem is that there's people And the problem is that there's people like you and me that are trying to like you and me that are trying to like you and me that are trying to actually do and and most of us, I'd say, actually do and and most of us, I'd say, actually do and and most of us, I'd say, 99.9% of us are working our asses off to 99.9% of us are working our asses off to 99.9% of us are working our asses off to like, you know, figure things out and like, you know, figure things out and like, you know, figure things out and discover stuff that's important for discover stuff that's important for discover stuff that's important for mankind. mankind. mankind. And then you have these sort of issues And then you have these sort of issues And then you have these sort of issues that arise and you're like, well, then that arise and you're like, well, then that arise and you're like, well, then should you distrust as a should you distrust as a should you distrust as a as a as a species, should you distrust as a as a species, should you distrust as a as a species, should you distrust the entire class of science? the entire class of science? the entire class of science? Probably not. You You just need to maybe Probably not. You You just need to maybe Probably not. You You just need to maybe make it so that knowledge is is freer make it so that knowledge is is freer make it so that knowledge is is freer and knowledge is better communicated and and knowledge is better communicated and and knowledge is better communicated and that and that um and that you do watch that and that um and that you do watch that and that um and that you do watch out for those situations where there out for those situations where there out for those situations where there should be, you know, uh should be, you know, uh should be, you know, uh and maybe vaccines are one and maybe vaccines are one and maybe vaccines are one we You know, we just need to do we You know, we just need to do we You know, we just need to do something sensible like what you're something sensible like what you're something sensible like what you're describing and just just do a study and describing and just just do a study and describing and just just do a study and say let's do that study. And and make say let's do that study. And and make say let's do that study. And and make that very public that we do it and say that very public that we do it and say that very public that we do it and say we're going to do that and and and you we're going to do that and and and you we're going to do that and and and you obviously people can sign up for, you obviously people can sign up for, you obviously people can sign up for, you know, the the you can have this regimen know, the the you can have this regimen know, the the you can have this regimen or you the old regimen or the new or you the old regimen or the new or you the old regimen or the new regimen and we regimen and we regimen and we You know, again, I I You know, again, I I You know, again, I I I may be speaking out I don't do I may be speaking out I don't do I may be speaking out I don't do vaccines. It's not what my lab studies, vaccines. It's not what my lab studies, vaccines. It's not what my lab studies, but there could be some sense to saying, but there could be some sense to saying, but there could be some sense to saying, well, maybe science as a whole could well, maybe science as a whole could well, maybe science as a whole could take this on and say what would be Maybe take this on and say what would be Maybe take this on and say what would be Maybe they Maybe the answer isn't just say no they Maybe the answer isn't just say no they Maybe the answer isn't just say no vaccines and we we think they do There's vaccines and we we think they do There's vaccines and we we think they do There's good evidence that they're protective. good evidence that they're protective. good evidence that they're protective. But to the extent that you're coming at But to the extent that you're coming at But to the extent that you're coming at it, could we make it less it, could we make it less it, could we make it less Let's Let's do it and let's just do it. Let's Let's do it and let's just do it. Let's Let's do it and let's just do it. Let's do that experiment. But I don't Let's do that experiment. But I don't Let's do that experiment. But I don't see that That's one of the things that's see that That's one of the things that's see that That's one of the things that's not happening right now is that nobody's not happening right now is that nobody's not happening right now is that nobody's actually actually actually describing an experiment. describing an experiment. describing an experiment. What would be the experiment? What would be the experiment? What would be the experiment? >> Yeah, well, the discussions haven't >> Yeah, well, the discussions haven't >> Yeah, well, the discussions haven't happened and I should say a couple of happened and I should say a couple of happened and I should say a couple of things. Um first of all, thank you for things. Um first of all, thank you for things. Um first of all, thank you for willing to venture into this area. I willing to venture into this area. I willing to venture into this area. I seriously doubt that any of your seriously doubt that any of your seriously doubt that any of your colleagues are going to be upset that colleagues are going to be upset that colleagues are going to be upset that you're having this conversation. I will you're having this conversation. I will you're having this conversation. I will make sure that anything we put out is in make sure that anything we put out is in make sure that anything we put out is in context. If anyone cuts a clip, I will context. If anyone cuts a clip, I will context. If anyone cuts a clip, I will be the first to dive in there and say be the first to dive in there and say be the first to dive in there and say this is taken out of context. this is taken out of context. this is taken out of context. But But But I to any people, colleagues or I to any people, colleagues or I to any people, colleagues or otherwise, that would say, "Hey, otherwise, that would say, "Hey, otherwise, that would say, "Hey, actually this is the wrong stance. You actually this is the wrong stance. You actually this is the wrong stance. You don't want to be talking about nuance in don't want to be talking about nuance in don't want to be talking about nuance in a time when there's so much threat to a time when there's so much threat to a time when there's so much threat to traditional medicine and vaccines, etc." traditional medicine and vaccines, etc." traditional medicine and vaccines, etc." I will say this. I will say this. I will say this. The idea that you need to push back with The idea that you need to push back with The idea that you need to push back with a with just a fire hose of do this or a with just a fire hose of do this or a with just a fire hose of do this or else did not work. else did not work. else did not work. The pandemic proved that. The pandemic proved that. The pandemic proved that. In fact, I think one of the biggest In fact, I think one of the biggest In fact, I think one of the biggest mistakes was to have one individual as mistakes was to have one individual as mistakes was to have one individual as opposed to a panel of people opposed to a panel of people opposed to a panel of people with more nuanced communicating public with more nuanced communicating public with more nuanced communicating public health information at that time. Any health information at that time. Any health information at that time. Any person, scientist, doctor, or otherwise person, scientist, doctor, or otherwise person, scientist, doctor, or otherwise who thinks that the way to convince who thinks that the way to convince who thinks that the way to convince people to change their behavior around people to change their behavior around people to change their behavior around vaccines or anything else is to just ram vaccines or anything else is to just ram vaccines or anything else is to just ram it down the public's throat and say or it down the public's throat and say or it down the public's throat and say or else you're whatever, you're political else you're whatever, you're political else you're whatever, you're political this or you're a fascist or whatever, this or you're a fascist or whatever, this or you're a fascist or whatever, okay? That is proven to be wrong and the okay? That is proven to be wrong and the okay? That is proven to be wrong and the path forward is really this kind of path forward is really this kind of path forward is really this kind of conversation. It's conversation. It's conversation. It's highly educated people like yourself in highly educated people like yourself in highly educated people like yourself in the educated in the immune system who the educated in the immune system who the educated in the immune system who understand this, who have children, who understand this, who have children, who understand this, who have children, who made certain choices saying made certain choices saying made certain choices saying yes and I can understand why you would yes and I can understand why you would yes and I can understand why you would be considering the following questions be considering the following questions be considering the following questions and we should do a study and and in the and we should do a study and and in the and we should do a study and and in the meantime you're not preventing anyone meantime you're not preventing anyone meantime you're not preventing anyone from getting vaccines. There's now a from getting vaccines. There's now a from getting vaccines. There's now a hunger for more nuanced conversation hunger for more nuanced conversation hunger for more nuanced conversation around these things and I think it's the around these things and I think it's the around these things and I think it's the right time to have it when we're not in right time to have it when we're not in right time to have it when we're not in the throws of a pandemic. the throws of a pandemic. the throws of a pandemic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yet. Yet. I mean there's some things >> Yet. Yet. I mean there's some things >> Yet. Yet. I mean there's some things that are on the rise. It is scary. I'll that are on the rise. It is scary. I'll that are on the rise. It is scary. I'll I'll be quite blunt. I'll be quite blunt. I'll be quite blunt. You know, the the rise in measles is You know, the the rise in measles is You know, the the rise in measles is scary. People say, "Well, measles, I scary. People say, "Well, measles, I scary. People say, "Well, measles, I used to have measles parties." Talk to used to have measles parties." Talk to used to have measles parties." Talk to somebody who had massive inflammation somebody who had massive inflammation somebody who had massive inflammation and brain inflammation from measles, not and brain inflammation from measles, not and brain inflammation from measles, not a pretty picture. a pretty picture. a pretty picture. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Not a pretty picture. >> Not a pretty picture. >> Not a pretty picture. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I think it's great that these >> So, I think it's great that these >> So, I think it's great that these conversations are starting conversations are starting conversations are starting and it won't be taken out of context. and it won't be taken out of context. and it won't be taken out of context. >> Yeah, well, I mean on the vaccination >> Yeah, well, I mean on the vaccination >> Yeah, well, I mean on the vaccination front, I mean I just wrote a little front, I mean I just wrote a little front, I mean I just wrote a little little little sub-cycle so about you little little sub-cycle so about you little little sub-cycle so about you know, the origins of smallpox and the know, the origins of smallpox and the know, the origins of smallpox and the vaccination and I think what's lost in vaccination and I think what's lost in vaccination and I think what's lost in those stories is if you look on the those stories is if you look on the those stories is if you look on the internet to internet to internet to the yeah, so that that's a terrible the yeah, so that that's a terrible the yeah, so that that's a terrible disease. I mean that disease. I mean that disease. I mean that you know, the reality of what we're you know, the reality of what we're you know, the reality of what we're protecting against we haven't there's protecting against we haven't there's protecting against we haven't there's just really hard to to like also have just really hard to to like also have just really hard to to like also have that conversation without doing a little that conversation without doing a little that conversation without doing a little bit of reading into your history. bit of reading into your history. bit of reading into your history. You know, and and I I don't think the You know, and and I I don't think the You know, and and I I don't think the history books are history books are history books are pulling the wool over our eyes by saying pulling the wool over our eyes by saying pulling the wool over our eyes by saying some of these things were really some of these things were really some of these things were really horrendous. horrendous. horrendous. >> Well, smallpox was dreadful. >> Well, smallpox was dreadful. >> Well, smallpox was dreadful. >> So, so there's an element of that though >> So, so there's an element of that though >> So, so there's an element of that though that I think you know, that we have to that I think you know, that we have to that I think you know, that we have to make sure that the conversation focuses make sure that the conversation focuses make sure that the conversation focuses on on what are we what are we trying to on on what are we what are we trying to on on what are we what are we trying to achieve here? achieve here? achieve here? And and and sometimes that that question And and and sometimes that that question And and and sometimes that that question is can get lost, but I think man, if my is can get lost, but I think man, if my is can get lost, but I think man, if my kid got smallpox or got measles or got kid got smallpox or got measles or got kid got smallpox or got measles or got mumps and and and and you know, as we mumps and and and and you know, as we mumps and and and and you know, as we know like measles is not a a theoretical know like measles is not a a theoretical know like measles is not a a theoretical again, you know, it's it's certain that again, you know, it's it's certain that again, you know, it's it's certain that that concept uh that concept uh that concept uh is enough to say well, there is a risk is enough to say well, there is a risk is enough to say well, there is a risk of that and that's one where you of that and that's one where you of that and that's one where you it's like you and you're not teaching it's like you and you're not teaching it's like you and you're not teaching your kid how to cross the street your kid how to cross the street your kid how to cross the street properly if you didn't do that and then properly if you didn't do that and then properly if you didn't do that and then the kid got hit by a car, you'd just be the kid got hit by a car, you'd just be the kid got hit by a car, you'd just be decimated. So, decimated. So, decimated. So, you know, just because we haven't seen you know, just because we haven't seen you know, just because we haven't seen these things for a while doesn't mean these things for a while doesn't mean these things for a while doesn't mean that they're not still real and I think that they're not still real and I think that they're not still real and I think [clears throat] that's also an important [clears throat] that's also an important [clears throat] that's also an important I think that's what that's me as a I think that's what that's me as a I think that's what that's me as a parent saying like yeah, I did look at parent saying like yeah, I did look at parent saying like yeah, I did look at the history and of these things and they the history and of these things and they the history and of these things and they really are bad. And so we are you know, really are bad. And so we are you know, really are bad. And so we are you know, we are defending against something, but we are defending against something, but we are defending against something, but you know, is there a better way to do you know, is there a better way to do you know, is there a better way to do it? Uh it? Uh it? Uh you know, propose experiment. That's you know, propose experiment. That's you know, propose experiment. That's that's you know, that's you know, that's you know, I think there's a you know, like cutting I think there's a you know, like cutting I think there's a you know, like cutting off you know, the concept of human off you know, the concept of human off you know, the concept of human curiosity and science at the legs is curiosity and science at the legs is curiosity and science at the legs is probably not probably not probably not the way to figure out something out from the way to figure out something out from the way to figure out something out from my experience. You you you you dive in, my experience. You you you you dive in, my experience. You you you you dive in, you think of the experiment that would you think of the experiment that would you think of the experiment that would answer the question and you say well, answer the question and you say well, answer the question and you say well, that is that the killer experiment for that is that the killer experiment for that is that the killer experiment for this thing? this thing? this thing? Again, I think you look at the numbers Again, I think you look at the numbers Again, I think you look at the numbers and the numbers from my this is me as a and the numbers from my this is me as a and the numbers from my this is me as a parent looking at the numbers of of you parent looking at the numbers of of you parent looking at the numbers of of you know, like the the danger of of of bad know, like the the danger of of of bad know, like the the danger of of of bad stuff happening versus the stuff happening versus the stuff happening versus the the odds of an adverse effect. They the odds of an adverse effect. They the odds of an adverse effect. They weren't all that high, but you know, weren't all that high, but you know, weren't all that high, but you know, again, if you're one of the people that again, if you're one of the people that again, if you're one of the people that even if it is that even if it is caused even if it is that even if it is caused even if it is that even if it is caused by vaccine, which I don't by the way by vaccine, which I don't by the way by vaccine, which I don't by the way Can I tell you a little story? I believe Can I tell you a little story? I believe Can I tell you a little story? I believe maybe you know this already, but if you maybe you know this already, but if you maybe you know this already, but if you wanted induce autism in mice, people do wanted induce autism in mice, people do wanted induce autism in mice, people do it by injecting a bacterial infection it by injecting a bacterial infection it by injecting a bacterial infection into the mom when she's pregnant. into the mom when she's pregnant. into the mom when she's pregnant. Which tells you that an immune challenge Which tells you that an immune challenge Which tells you that an immune challenge can affect the neurons of the of a can affect the neurons of the of a can affect the neurons of the of a developing pup. developing pup. developing pup. So, it's not outside the realm to say So, it's not outside the realm to say So, it's not outside the realm to say that in some situations and adjuvant that in some situations and adjuvant that in some situations and adjuvant situation again, again, I may regret situation again, again, I may regret situation again, again, I may regret saying this because it's you know, Uh, saying this because it's you know, Uh, saying this because it's you know, Uh, it's to open up a conversation to have it's to open up a conversation to have it's to open up a conversation to have this, but it's it's not outside the this, but it's it's not outside the this, but it's it's not outside the bounds to say that a immune insult will bounds to say that a immune insult will bounds to say that a immune insult will have influence on neurodevelopment, have influence on neurodevelopment, have influence on neurodevelopment, period. period. period. Is it the source of autistic children? Is it the source of autistic children? Is it the source of autistic children? Or was it in fact that the mom had Or was it in fact that the mom had Or was it in fact that the mom had infection during pregnancy? It's not infection during pregnancy? It's not infection during pregnancy? It's not absolutely wacko to think, and you absolutely wacko to think, and you absolutely wacko to think, and you should think this is a neurobiologist, I should think this is a neurobiologist, I should think this is a neurobiologist, I think you'll probably agree, to think think you'll probably agree, to think think you'll probably agree, to think that inflammation, some of the molecules that inflammation, some of the molecules that inflammation, some of the molecules of inflammation, will affect of inflammation, will affect of inflammation, will affect the the the cells of the brain. the the the cells of the brain. the the the cells of the brain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In fact, one of the one of the best >> In fact, one of the one of the best >> In fact, one of the one of the best experience that I love along these experience that I love along these experience that I love along these lines, it's not about about autism at lines, it's not about about autism at lines, it's not about about autism at all, but it's about all, but it's about all, but it's about when you get a flu, when you get a flu, when you get a flu, you tend to go you you tend to feel like you tend to go you you tend to feel like you tend to go you you tend to feel like you want to social isolate yourself. you want to social isolate yourself. you want to social isolate yourself. At least I do, and most people do, I At least I do, and most people do, I At least I do, and most people do, I think. They kind of want to crawl in a think. They kind of want to crawl in a think. They kind of want to crawl in a hole. Is that crawl in a hole feel? hole. Is that crawl in a hole feel? hole. Is that crawl in a hole feel? There's an experiment that was done that There's an experiment that was done that There's an experiment that was done that involved injecting gamma interferon, involved injecting gamma interferon, involved injecting gamma interferon, which is one of the things your immune which is one of the things your immune which is one of the things your immune system makes when it's fighting off an system makes when it's fighting off an system makes when it's fighting off an infection, into the blood bloodstream of infection, into the blood bloodstream of infection, into the blood bloodstream of a mouse, a mouse, a mouse, and then just watching it. and then just watching it. and then just watching it. And [snorts] they become, And [snorts] they become, And [snorts] they become, uh, you know, socially isolating from uh, you know, socially isolating from uh, you know, socially isolating from just the molecule that's made by the just the molecule that's made by the just the molecule that's made by the immune response during immune response during immune response during >> Not even from sick. >> Not even from sick. >> Not even from sick. >> Not even being sick. They're not sick. >> Not even being sick. They're not sick. >> Not even being sick. They're not sick. Well, they just are given this this cue Well, they just are given this this cue Well, they just are given this this cue that's part of the systemic immune that's part of the systemic immune that's part of the systemic immune response, and then they response, and then they response, and then they show the signs of social isolation. And show the signs of social isolation. And show the signs of social isolation. And the lab that did this, um, also showed the lab that did this, um, also showed the lab that did this, um, also showed that the brain has receptors for these that the brain has receptors for these that the brain has receptors for these immune molecules. immune molecules. immune molecules. And you know, the simple conclusion of And you know, the simple conclusion of And you know, the simple conclusion of that paper is, you know, there's still that paper is, you know, there's still that paper is, you know, there's still always work to be done, but simple always work to be done, but simple always work to be done, but simple conclusion was that the brain could conclusion was that the brain could conclusion was that the brain could sense infection and and it would affect sense infection and and it would affect sense infection and and it would affect behavior. behavior. behavior. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um, even in mature you know, in us as >> Um, even in mature you know, in us as >> Um, even in mature you know, in us as mature. So, you know, again, there's mature. So, you know, again, there's mature. So, you know, again, there's these these ideas that there is there's these these ideas that there is there's these these ideas that there is there's something that I mean, scientists used something that I mean, scientists used something that I mean, scientists used that infection of a mom, you know, to that infection of a mom, you know, to that infection of a mom, you know, to lead to neuronal changes that lead us to lead to neuronal changes that lead us to lead to neuronal changes that lead us to be able to under to study autism in be able to under to study autism in be able to under to study autism in later mice. So, there there's definitely later mice. So, there there's definitely later mice. So, there there's definitely potential there. I don't know that the potential there. I don't know that the potential there. I don't know that the vaccines and all of them in or whether vaccines and all of them in or whether vaccines and all of them in or whether it's a circumstance or whether it's, you it's a circumstance or whether it's, you it's a circumstance or whether it's, you know, getting the mom actually had a know, getting the mom actually had a know, getting the mom actually had a fever before and the vaccine now just fever before and the vaccine now just fever before and the vaccine now just triggered or didn't or just circumstance triggered or didn't or just circumstance triggered or didn't or just circumstance because you give vaccines at 2 years of because you give vaccines at 2 years of because you give vaccines at 2 years of age, which is when autism appears. age, which is when autism appears. age, which is when autism appears. There's all kinds of options, you know, There's all kinds of options, you know, There's all kinds of options, you know, and the and and those sort of anecdotes and the and and those sort of anecdotes and the and and those sort of anecdotes of of that and and um of of that and and um of of that and and um I just think that that that fact that, I just think that that that fact that, I just think that that that fact that, you know, the way that we study autism you know, the way that we study autism you know, the way that we study autism is by giving a pregnant female mouse is by giving a pregnant female mouse is by giving a pregnant female mouse an infection. It's sort sort of like, an infection. It's sort sort of like, an infection. It's sort sort of like, okay, that's that's important to know. okay, that's that's important to know. okay, that's that's important to know. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That work is still ongoing by >> That work is still ongoing by >> That work is still ongoing by laboratories to understand autism. They laboratories to understand autism. They laboratories to understand autism. They want to understand the origins of it. want to understand the origins of it. want to understand the origins of it. And maybe it will not turn out to be And maybe it will not turn out to be And maybe it will not turn out to be vaccines at all. vaccines at all. vaccines at all. >> Again, >> Again, >> Again, we we need data. we we need data. we we need data. >> And and we're in a data >> And and we're in a data >> And and we're in a data >> We definitely need data. >> We definitely need data. >> We definitely need data. >> We're we're almost in a COVID situation. >> We're we're almost in a COVID situation. >> We're we're almost in a COVID situation. I describe the COVID situation now in I describe the COVID situation now in I describe the COVID situation now in retrospect as one that is data sparse. retrospect as one that is data sparse. retrospect as one that is data sparse. And this is why I've been trying to work And this is why I've been trying to work And this is why I've been trying to work on I was telling telling you about this on I was telling telling you about this on I was telling telling you about this project I'm trying to work on project I'm trying to work on project I'm trying to work on the publishing problem. But it's not the publishing problem. But it's not the publishing problem. But it's not it's not just the publishing problem. it's not just the publishing problem. it's not just the publishing problem. It's how we how we synthesize knowledge. It's how we how we synthesize knowledge. It's how we how we synthesize knowledge. That under data sparse circumstances to That under data sparse circumstances to That under data sparse circumstances to make decisions, I think we're not very make decisions, I think we're not very make decisions, I think we're not very good at that societally. good at that societally. good at that societally. Um and when we have tons of data and it Um and when we have tons of data and it Um and when we have tons of data and it says, "Absolutely, if you have cancer or says, "Absolutely, if you have cancer or says, "Absolutely, if you have cancer or you take immunotherapy, then there's a you take immunotherapy, then there's a you take immunotherapy, then there's a 50% chance you're going to revive." 50% chance you're going to revive." 50% chance you're going to revive." Great. Those stats are solid, they're Great. Those stats are solid, they're Great. Those stats are solid, they're very good, and I would I would take that very good, and I would I would take that very good, and I would I would take that drug every time. drug every time. drug every time. But if it's sort of a case where you're But if it's sort of a case where you're But if it's sort of a case where you're like, "Yeah, there's some things that like, "Yeah, there's some things that like, "Yeah, there's some things that are happening and and and there's some are happening and and and there's some are happening and and and there's some other things that happen we don't know." other things that happen we don't know." other things that happen we don't know." You remember the beginning of COVID, we You remember the beginning of COVID, we You remember the beginning of COVID, we talked about it amongst ourselves in the talked about it amongst ourselves in the talked about it amongst ourselves in the lab walls, and we were coming in lab walls, and we were coming in lab walls, and we were coming in to analyze blood, and it was kind of to analyze blood, and it was kind of to analyze blood, and it was kind of unsafe because we didn't know what was unsafe because we didn't know what was unsafe because we didn't know what was safe. We didn't know how it was safe. We didn't know how it was safe. We didn't know how it was transmitted, we didn't know anything transmitted, we didn't know anything transmitted, we didn't know anything about it. It was it could it could we about it. It was it could it could we about it. It was it could it could we get it from blood? get it from blood? get it from blood? Um and and that kind of went on for a Um and and that kind of went on for a Um and and that kind of went on for a while, right? And this was the source of while, right? And this was the source of while, right? And this was the source of like a lot of confusion that came from like a lot of confusion that came from like a lot of confusion that came from the medical It was seemed seen as the medical It was seemed seen as the medical It was seemed seen as confusion that not your face is like, do confusion that not your face is like, do confusion that not your face is like, do you mask, do you not mask, do you touch, you mask, do you not mask, do you touch, you mask, do you not mask, do you touch, do you not touch? I think that's a do you not touch? I think that's a do you not touch? I think that's a that's a data sparse situation. You that's a data sparse situation. You that's a data sparse situation. You know, the the data that we had was know, the the data that we had was know, the the data that we had was sparse. sparse. sparse. It wasn't a lot of information, and so, It wasn't a lot of information, and so, It wasn't a lot of information, and so, you know, how do you make a decision you know, how do you make a decision you know, how do you make a decision when you don't have a lot of data? when you don't have a lot of data? when you don't have a lot of data? >> Well, I think that's the major argument >> Well, I think that's the major argument >> Well, I think that's the major argument when there when there when there you know, there are people that will you know, there are people that will you know, there are people that will critique critique critique people saying, "Okay, your experience is people saying, "Okay, your experience is people saying, "Okay, your experience is anecdote, it's correlative, but then the anecdote, it's correlative, but then the anecdote, it's correlative, but then the the the what with regard to vaccines and the the what with regard to vaccines and the the what with regard to vaccines and autism and other issues, but then the autism and other issues, but then the autism and other issues, but then the pushback is, well, this vaccine, etc., pushback is, well, this vaccine, etc., pushback is, well, this vaccine, etc., was directionally guided by sparse was directionally guided by sparse was directionally guided by sparse information to begin with under times of information to begin with under times of information to begin with under times of [clears throat] pressure. There's [clears throat] pressure. There's [clears throat] pressure. There's financial incentives. So, it's just this financial incentives. So, it's just this financial incentives. So, it's just this ping-pong that goes back and forth. But ping-pong that goes back and forth. But ping-pong that goes back and forth. But many thousands of parents write to me many thousands of parents write to me many thousands of parents write to me and say, "Should I wait on certain and say, "Should I wait on certain and say, "Should I wait on certain vaccines?" And I'm like, "Listen, I am vaccines?" And I'm like, "Listen, I am vaccines?" And I'm like, "Listen, I am not the person to answer that question." not the person to answer that question." not the person to answer that question." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but you have every right to ask your >> Um but you have every right to ask your >> Um but you have every right to ask your doctor. Right? But they're not asking doctor. Right? But they're not asking doctor. Right? But they're not asking because they're extremists. They're not because they're extremists. They're not because they're extremists. They're not anti-vaxers. They're asking because they anti-vaxers. They're asking because they anti-vaxers. They're asking because they love their kids and they've seen enough love their kids and they've seen enough love their kids and they've seen enough things to call into question the things to call into question the things to call into question the incentives. And they just know that the incentives. And they just know that the incentives. And they just know that the conversation cannot be as polarized as conversation cannot be as polarized as conversation cannot be as polarized as it's presented to them in re- in it's presented to them in re- in it's presented to them in re- in reality. The the data cannot be as reality. The the data cannot be as reality. The the data cannot be as polarized as it's been presented. polarized as it's been presented. polarized as it's been presented. >> Yeah, certainly certainly in media some >> Yeah, certainly certainly in media some >> Yeah, certainly certainly in media some of these things get presented quite of these things get presented quite of these things get presented quite quite um, you know, inflammatory. And quite um, you know, inflammatory. And quite um, you know, inflammatory. And again, if if if newspapers want to sell again, if if if newspapers want to sell again, if if if newspapers want to sell a newspaper, they show a plane crash. a newspaper, they show a plane crash. a newspaper, they show a plane crash. Right. So, it's not happening every day, Right. So, it's not happening every day, Right. So, it's not happening every day, but they'll show you but they'll show you but they'll show you >> an airline ad in the same issue. >> an airline ad in the same issue. >> an airline ad in the same issue. >> Well, there's that, too. >> Well, there's that, too. >> Well, there's that, too. >> Yeah, you know. So. >> Yeah, you know. So. >> Yeah, you know. So. >> I think one of the interesting things >> I think one of the interesting things >> I think one of the interesting things that that we could get into is it it is that that we could get into is it it is that that we could get into is it it is that in you in a lot of these studies, that in you in a lot of these studies, that in you in a lot of these studies, scientists are there's a motivation to scientists are there's a motivation to scientists are there's a motivation to to make the most of your result. And to make the most of your result. And to make the most of your result. And we've talked about why that's important we've talked about why that's important we've talked about why that's important is that if you find something is that if you find something is that if you find something orthogonal, CRISPR, checkpoint blockade, orthogonal, CRISPR, checkpoint blockade, orthogonal, CRISPR, checkpoint blockade, uh you know, x-rays, you look for that uh you know, x-rays, you look for that uh you know, x-rays, you look for that orthogonal use for it, right? And you or orthogonal use for it, right? And you or orthogonal use for it, right? And you or that that orthogonal meaning. That we that that orthogonal meaning. That we that that orthogonal meaning. That we sometimes we call extensibility. Like I sometimes we call extensibility. Like I sometimes we call extensibility. Like I see that if I if I drop coffee cup on see that if I if I drop coffee cup on see that if I if I drop coffee cup on the thing that gravity pulls it down. the thing that gravity pulls it down. the thing that gravity pulls it down. Well, then I can learn that it I can Well, then I can learn that it I can Well, then I can learn that it I can drop all kinds of thing. I can make drop all kinds of thing. I can make drop all kinds of thing. I can make gravity work for me. You know, it gravity work for me. You know, it gravity work for me. You know, it becomes a tool. becomes a tool. becomes a tool. And and [snorts] I think one of the And and [snorts] I think one of the And and [snorts] I think one of the things that's that that it is lost things that's that that it is lost things that's that that it is lost sometimes is that some things are not sometimes is that some things are not sometimes is that some things are not extensible. So, you know, you can extensible. So, you know, you can extensible. So, you know, you can imagine that like if I if I had imagine that like if I if I had imagine that like if I if I had something that moved makes a cell move, something that moved makes a cell move, something that moved makes a cell move, that that might screw up the whole that that might screw up the whole that that might screw up the whole system forever. But humans and our system forever. But humans and our system forever. But humans and our bodies turn out to be remarkably bodies turn out to be remarkably bodies turn out to be remarkably resilient. I mean, we can go from minus resilient. I mean, we can go from minus resilient. I mean, we can go from minus 20° to, you know, 110°. We can not eat 20° to, you know, 110°. We can not eat 20° to, you know, 110°. We can not eat for a long time. You know, all you know, for a long time. You know, all you know, for a long time. You know, all you know, all these things don't cause us to fall all these things don't cause us to fall all these things don't cause us to fall apart. So, if we didn't have resilience, apart. So, if we didn't have resilience, apart. So, if we didn't have resilience, I think our species wouldn't exist I think our species wouldn't exist I think our species wouldn't exist because there's all these pressures and because there's all these pressures and because there's all these pressures and all these varieties of life under which all these varieties of life under which all these varieties of life under which we lead. And I think a lot of science we lead. And I think a lot of science we lead. And I think a lot of science sometimes doesn't, you know, it it and sometimes doesn't, you know, it it and sometimes doesn't, you know, it it and and and and from the outside or even as an insider, from the outside or even as an insider, from the outside or even as an insider, you can read a paper and they they they you can read a paper and they they they you can read a paper and they they they point to why it might be important, but point to why it might be important, but point to why it might be important, but they're really doing that to to to to they're really doing that to to to to they're really doing that to to to to garner interest for their story, you garner interest for their story, you garner interest for their story, you know, and then say this might be know, and then say this might be know, and then say this might be important for this, but I haven't shown important for this, but I haven't shown important for this, but I haven't shown this important for they they don't say this important for they they don't say this important for they they don't say that's important as it might be that's important as it might be that's important as it might be important. And they're trying to look important. And they're trying to look important. And they're trying to look for that that orthogonal or that for that that orthogonal or that for that that orthogonal or that extensibility of it. extensibility of it. extensibility of it. And I think that's kind of important And I think that's kind of important And I think that's kind of important also just to go a little bit off this also just to go a little bit off this also just to go a little bit off this topic for a moment in how we think about topic for a moment in how we think about topic for a moment in how we think about drugging diseases as we go forward. And drugging diseases as we go forward. And drugging diseases as we go forward. And that is to say, we've looked for these that is to say, we've looked for these that is to say, we've looked for these one-and-done drugs that are you one-and-done drugs that are you one-and-done drugs that are you take a pill and it cures everything, you take a pill and it cures everything, you take a pill and it cures everything, you know, forever. That's sort of found of know, forever. That's sort of found of know, forever. That's sort of found of youthish. youthish. youthish. And you know, we found a few of those. I And you know, we found a few of those. I And you know, we found a few of those. I would say checkpoint blockade is one of would say checkpoint blockade is one of would say checkpoint blockade is one of those that you can take it and you know, those that you can take it and you know, those that you can take it and you know, in 50% of melanomas, everything the in 50% of melanomas, everything the in 50% of melanomas, everything the tumor goes away and everything's great. tumor goes away and everything's great. tumor goes away and everything's great. But most biological systems, if you have But most biological systems, if you have But most biological systems, if you have one button to push, they're super one button to push, they're super one button to push, they're super non-resilient. A virus can exploit that non-resilient. A virus can exploit that non-resilient. A virus can exploit that button. button. button. You know, that that that can cause you You know, that that that can cause you You know, that that that can cause you know, collapse. And so, most things are know, collapse. And so, most things are know, collapse. And so, most things are wired like in in really complicated wired like in in really complicated wired like in in really complicated ways. And I think what a few of us are ways. And I think what a few of us are ways. And I think what a few of us are thinking, this is for cancer in thinking, this is for cancer in thinking, this is for cancer in particular where you want to get the particular where you want to get the particular where you want to get the immune state from like you know, where I immune state from like you know, where I immune state from like you know, where I had a little concept of a fuel gauge. had a little concept of a fuel gauge. had a little concept of a fuel gauge. You want to get it from one position to You want to get it from one position to You want to get it from one position to another position. It may not just be another position. It may not just be another position. It may not just be about a push here. You may have to push about a push here. You may have to push about a push here. You may have to push some cells that way, some cells that way, some cells that way, create some new environment that looks create some new environment that looks create some new environment that looks like development, you know, your cells like development, you know, your cells like development, you know, your cells develop through states. And and you push develop through states. And and you push develop through states. And and you push the the biological systems to reach this the the biological systems to reach this the the biological systems to reach this new state in a way that doesn't look new state in a way that doesn't look new state in a way that doesn't look like the linear between like low immune like the linear between like low immune like the linear between like low immune reactivity and high reactivity. You reactivity and high reactivity. You reactivity and high reactivity. You might have to push it in a serious way might have to push it in a serious way might have to push it in a serious way because resiliency the because resiliency the because resiliency the the systems like even in chronic the systems like even in chronic the systems like even in chronic disease, but even in health, we're disease, but even in health, we're disease, but even in health, we're pretty resilient. And I think pretty resilient. And I think pretty resilient. And I think you can stand up to a lot of stuff. you can stand up to a lot of stuff. you can stand up to a lot of stuff. >> Can humans do that >> Can humans do that >> Can humans do that even in the context of abundant funding even in the context of abundant funding even in the context of abundant funding for basic research? Can what you just for basic research? Can what you just for basic research? Can what you just described actually be tested to the described actually be tested to the described actually be tested to the point where we can develop things? And point where we can develop things? And point where we can develop things? And the analogy here is I had my dad on the the analogy here is I had my dad on the the analogy here is I had my dad on the podcast. He's a theoretical physicist podcast. He's a theoretical physicist podcast. He's a theoretical physicist and he explained to me that one of the and he explained to me that one of the and he explained to me that one of the most important things you learn in most important things you learn in most important things you learn in physics is that you can't really physics is that you can't really physics is that you can't really understand quantum mechanics using your understand quantum mechanics using your understand quantum mechanics using your logical brain. You need the math to logical brain. You need the math to logical brain. You need the math to prove it. And this is when whenever prove it. And this is when whenever prove it. And this is when whenever somebody he also warned whenever somebody he also warned whenever somebody he also warned whenever somebody says they understand quantum somebody says they understand quantum somebody says they understand quantum stuff you have to ask them to stuff you have to ask them to stuff you have to ask them to demonstrate it for you because these demonstrate it for you because these demonstrate it for you because these people talk quantum because and and we people talk quantum because and and we people talk quantum because and and we make all these assumptions about quantum make all these assumptions about quantum make all these assumptions about quantum they talk about quantum fields so we they talk about quantum fields so we they talk about quantum fields so we think they're smart but but the think they're smart but but the think they're smart but but the theoretical physicists theoretical physicists theoretical physicists and for engineers get you know develop and for engineers get you know develop and for engineers get you know develop all sorts of incredible theorems and all sorts of incredible theorems and all sorts of incredible theorems and real experiments and then technologies real experiments and then technologies real experiments and then technologies based on based on based on all of that all of that all of that because of the math works not because we because of the math works not because we because of the math works not because we can conceptualize it and I wonder given can conceptualize it and I wonder given can conceptualize it and I wonder given the complexity of biological systems the complexity of biological systems the complexity of biological systems perhaps in 2026 we're running up against perhaps in 2026 we're running up against perhaps in 2026 we're running up against this barrier where this barrier where this barrier where by virtue of the sociology of science by virtue of the sociology of science by virtue of the sociology of science that papers need to have one maybe two that papers need to have one maybe two that papers need to have one maybe two take home messages by virtue of the fact take home messages by virtue of the fact take home messages by virtue of the fact that that that there's a limited amount of funding there's a limited amount of funding there's a limited amount of funding people need to sleep at night and on and people need to sleep at night and on and people need to sleep at night and on and on that doing the kinds of experiments on that doing the kinds of experiments on that doing the kinds of experiments like you described like pushing the like you described like pushing the like you described like pushing the cells this way nudging them that way and cells this way nudging them that way and cells this way nudging them that way and then drugging the the outcome in a way then drugging the the outcome in a way then drugging the the outcome in a way that is beneficial but not detrimental that is beneficial but not detrimental that is beneficial but not detrimental is this a place where machines are going is this a place where machines are going is this a place where machines are going to be to be to be better or at least helpful in doing better or at least helpful in doing better or at least helpful in doing these experiments? these experiments? these experiments? >> I take the standpoint that AI's and I >> I take the standpoint that AI's and I >> I take the standpoint that AI's and I think you know this is back to talking think you know this is back to talking think you know this is back to talking about AI experts it's really quite good about AI experts it's really quite good about AI experts it's really quite good at at producing stuff that is in the at at producing stuff that is in the at at producing stuff that is in the corpus. The corpus is the knowledge that corpus. The corpus is the knowledge that corpus. The corpus is the knowledge that we already have. Almost by definition when you're coming Almost by definition when you're coming at that with or something discovery at that with or something discovery at that with or something discovery you're discovering something it doesn't you're discovering something it doesn't you're discovering something it doesn't exist in the corpus. You might have exist in the corpus. You might have exist in the corpus. You might have hints of it there but you still have to hints of it there but you still have to hints of it there but you still have to do experiments at some point. So, do experiments at some point. So, do experiments at some point. So, if I'm going to get an answer, you know, if I'm going to get an answer, you know, if I'm going to get an answer, you know, the question you're trying to raise, if the question you're trying to raise, if the question you're trying to raise, if I get a tumor from a patient and I take I get a tumor from a patient and I take I get a tumor from a patient and I take apart all the cells and I look at all apart all the cells and I look at all apart all the cells and I look at all the genes that are expressed in all the the genes that are expressed in all the the genes that are expressed in all the different cell types, I can build in different cell types, I can build in different cell types, I can build in silico a network where I can look at how silico a network where I can look at how silico a network where I can look at how all those cells are wired together now. all those cells are wired together now. all those cells are wired together now. And I can ask, you know, what would be And I can ask, you know, what would be And I can ask, you know, what would be the possible consequence of clipping the possible consequence of clipping the possible consequence of clipping this molecule's ability to touch that this molecule's ability to touch that this molecule's ability to touch that cell. cell. cell. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> That that's that's now in doable, >> That that's that's now in doable, >> That that's that's now in doable, but it relies on a area of math that is but it relies on a area of math that is but it relies on a area of math that is not really AI. It's called machine not really AI. It's called machine not really AI. It's called machine learning, and sometimes these things are learning, and sometimes these things are learning, and sometimes these things are conflated. But machine learning is conflated. But machine learning is conflated. But machine learning is basically looking to say, what are some basically looking to say, what are some basically looking to say, what are some of the relationships that I can discover of the relationships that I can discover of the relationships that I can discover about, about, about, you know, the relationship between this you know, the relationship between this you know, the relationship between this feature of the cell and this other feature of the cell and this other feature of the cell and this other feature of the cell. So, it's it's feature of the cell. So, it's it's feature of the cell. So, it's it's learning about it, and then it's it learning about it, and then it's it learning about it, and then it's it allows you to propose a bunch of allows you to propose a bunch of allows you to propose a bunch of experiments, but you still kind of have experiments, but you still kind of have experiments, but you still kind of have to choose and select which ones you're to choose and select which ones you're to choose and select which ones you're going to do. Some experiments are just going to do. Some experiments are just going to do. Some experiments are just really expensive. really expensive. really expensive. And that's where you have to have, I And that's where you have to have, I And that's where you have to have, I think, still human judgment that comes think, still human judgment that comes think, still human judgment that comes into that and say, am I going to spend a into that and say, am I going to spend a into that and say, am I going to spend a year year year studying this question and we're already studying this question and we're already studying this question and we're already doing Am I going to study a little bit doing Am I going to study a little bit doing Am I going to study a little bit more and try to understand some some more and try to understand some some more and try to understand some some things in a greater detail than maybe things in a greater detail than maybe things in a greater detail than maybe the machine learning gave me. the machine learning gave me. the machine learning gave me. But it's not clear to me that any But it's not clear to me that any But it's not clear to me that any anywhere right now we can say anywhere right now we can say anywhere right now we can say the the corpus of knowledge doesn't have the the corpus of knowledge doesn't have the the corpus of knowledge doesn't have a bunch of examples of cures from, you a bunch of examples of cures from, you a bunch of examples of cures from, you know, across from treatments and say, know, across from treatments and say, know, across from treatments and say, oh, all I need to do is match those up, oh, all I need to do is match those up, oh, all I need to do is match those up, which is kind of what AI does when it which is kind of what AI does when it which is kind of what AI does when it comes to large language models. You comes to large language models. You comes to large language models. You query it, it looks and statistically it query it, it looks and statistically it query it, it looks and statistically it says, what are the what are the says, what are the what are the says, what are the what are the relationships between what you queried relationships between what you queried relationships between what you queried and what I give you back as an answer. and what I give you back as an answer. and what I give you back as an answer. And in discovery space, we don't have And in discovery space, we don't have And in discovery space, we don't have examples of the, you know, the other examples of the, you know, the other examples of the, you know, the other end. We have, you know, sure, I can tell end. We have, you know, sure, I can tell end. We have, you know, sure, I can tell you all the things that you could do, you all the things that you could do, you all the things that you could do, but, you know, knowing which one is but, you know, knowing which one is but, you know, knowing which one is going to be orthogonal big big hit isn't going to be orthogonal big big hit isn't going to be orthogonal big big hit isn't there. But what I'm talking about a there. But what I'm talking about a there. But what I'm talking about a little bit is is to just is to take a little bit is is to just is to take a little bit is is to just is to take a problem apart and say, problem apart and say, problem apart and say, if I have something like I want to if I have something like I want to if I have something like I want to change something change something change something in anything. This could be how if I want in anything. This could be how if I want in anything. This could be how if I want to change the world. to change the world. to change the world. It's unlikely that any one act will do It's unlikely that any one act will do It's unlikely that any one act will do it. The also the world is pretty it. The also the world is pretty it. The also the world is pretty durable. The political systems, despite durable. The political systems, despite durable. The political systems, despite what we think, are somehow semi-stable. what we think, are somehow semi-stable. what we think, are somehow semi-stable. But a series of of of these nudges But a series of of of these nudges But a series of of of these nudges can create the condition where the last can create the condition where the last can create the condition where the last one takes you across the border. And I one takes you across the border. And I one takes you across the border. And I think that's what we're going to have to think that's what we're going to have to think that's what we're going to have to do in disease, where we say, "Look, do in disease, where we say, "Look, do in disease, where we say, "Look, nature doesn't necessarily want us nature doesn't necessarily want us nature doesn't necessarily want us banging on it. It'll bang back." What in banging on it. It'll bang back." What in banging on it. It'll bang back." What in fact in fact in fact we need to do is if fact in fact in fact we need to do is if fact in fact in fact we need to do is if we want this tumor to get eaten cured, we want this tumor to get eaten cured, we want this tumor to get eaten cured, we need to first let it not look like we need to first let it not look like we need to first let it not look like it's a wound that's healing. So, don't it's a wound that's healing. So, don't it's a wound that's healing. So, don't give it the power of the immune system, give it the power of the immune system, give it the power of the immune system, the positive power. And then get to the the positive power. And then get to the the positive power. And then get to the point where we can say, "Well, now we point where we can say, "Well, now we point where we can say, "Well, now we want it to teach the immune system to want it to teach the immune system to want it to teach the immune system to kill it." But we may not be able to do kill it." But we may not be able to do kill it." But we may not be able to do that until we kind of dissemble some of that until we kind of dissemble some of that until we kind of dissemble some of its defenses. And that's that's a way of its defenses. And that's that's a way of its defenses. And that's that's a way of of, you know, again in this in this kind of, you know, again in this in this kind of, you know, again in this in this kind of deep computational space, we end up of deep computational space, we end up of deep computational space, we end up with a lot of feature that tissue of the with a lot of feature that tissue of the with a lot of feature that tissue of the of tissue cells and how they're of tissue cells and how they're of tissue cells and how they're organized and what genes they're organized and what genes they're organized and what genes they're expressing expressing expressing that start to look like Magellan's map that start to look like Magellan's map that start to look like Magellan's map of the of the of the world that, you of the of the of the world that, you of the of the of the world that, you know, in its early phase it only had know, in its early phase it only had know, in its early phase it only had parts. And then, you know, it starts as parts. And then, you know, it starts as parts. And then, you know, it starts as you explore and you add things to it. you explore and you add things to it. you explore and you add things to it. You know, I think when we start to think You know, I think when we start to think You know, I think when we start to think about how tissues are configured, we're about how tissues are configured, we're about how tissues are configured, we're starting to be able to see these really starting to be able to see these really starting to be able to see these really complicated states where the immune complicated states where the immune complicated states where the immune system is doing this and system is doing this and system is doing this and fibroblasts, certain cells are doing fibroblasts, certain cells are doing fibroblasts, certain cells are doing this and epithelial cells are doing this and epithelial cells are doing this and epithelial cells are doing this. And that's a that's a we call them this. And that's a that's a we call them this. And that's a that's a we call them archetypes. They're archetypes. They're archetypes. They're >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> they're like they're like a way that >> they're like they're like a way that >> they're like they're like a way that biology organizes itself. And to get biology organizes itself. And to get biology organizes itself. And to get from one to the next, we need to from one to the next, we need to from one to the next, we need to understand how it does it understand how it does it understand how it does it developmentally. That would be a really developmentally. That would be a really developmentally. That would be a really nice thing to follow. nice thing to follow. nice thing to follow. And then we need to give those cues in And then we need to give those cues in And then we need to give those cues in order. And that's where I was coming order. And that's where I was coming order. And that's where I was coming back, you know, when you were talking back, you know, when you were talking back, you know, when you were talking about peptides earlier. I was saying, about peptides earlier. I was saying, about peptides earlier. I was saying, "Well, they may some some of these drugs "Well, they may some some of these drugs "Well, they may some some of these drugs may well work, but I might imagine that may well work, but I might imagine that may well work, but I might imagine that they might work best if given in the they might work best if given in the they might work best if given in the right sequence and the time and the right sequence and the time and the right sequence and the time and the place." place." place." And that that's when you really want to And that that's when you really want to And that that's when you really want to like hammer to get the system go that, like hammer to get the system go that, like hammer to get the system go that, but then it might be a connected to but then it might be a connected to but then it might be a connected to another one. And we all want to find the another one. And we all want to find the another one. And we all want to find the one thing that like, one thing that like, one thing that like, you know, the fountain of youth, the you know, the fountain of youth, the you know, the fountain of youth, the thing that cures a disease. And and and thing that cures a disease. And and and thing that cures a disease. And and and it's been forever that we've been it's been forever that we've been it's been forever that we've been looking for a single, you know, single looking for a single, you know, single looking for a single, you know, single hits one and one and done. But it may be hits one and one and done. But it may be hits one and one and done. But it may be a collection of And you know, this is a collection of And you know, this is a collection of And you know, this is probably this is how I live my life for probably this is how I live my life for probably this is how I live my life for health, too. So, there's like collection health, too. So, there's like collection health, too. So, there's like collection of behaviors and what you eat and sleep of behaviors and what you eat and sleep of behaviors and what you eat and sleep you get and all these things create and you get and all these things create and you get and all these things create and partners, you know, partners, you know, partners, you know, and yeah, you're and yeah, you're and yeah, you're loves of your life, the the friends you loves of your life, the the friends you loves of your life, the the friends you have, they're all part of I think this have, they're all part of I think this have, they're all part of I think this this this this and that's getting a little away from and that's getting a little away from and that's getting a little away from immunology obviously, but it It's an immunology obviously, but it It's an immunology obviously, but it It's an analogy. >> Could I ask you a couple of additional >> Could I ask you a couple of additional questions about the immune system? questions about the immune system? questions about the immune system? >> Yeah, please. >> Yeah, please. >> Yeah, please. >> Before we wrap because I know um >> Before we wrap because I know um >> Before we wrap because I know um many people are curious about autoimmune many people are curious about autoimmune many people are curious about autoimmune issues. More and more I issues. More and more I issues. More and more I hear about, you know, I don't know if hear about, you know, I don't know if hear about, you know, I don't know if it's chronic fatigue considered an it's chronic fatigue considered an it's chronic fatigue considered an autoimmune issue by most. A lot of autoimmune issue by most. A lot of autoimmune issue by most. A lot of people seem to have chronic fatigue. people seem to have chronic fatigue. people seem to have chronic fatigue. There was a debate, does it really There was a debate, does it really There was a debate, does it really exist? For someone who believes they exist? For someone who believes they exist? For someone who believes they have it, they it absolutely exists and have it, they it absolutely exists and have it, they it absolutely exists and they're tired. I believe them. I know they're tired. I believe them. I know they're tired. I believe them. I know someone who had a myalgia uh recently um someone who had a myalgia uh recently um someone who had a myalgia uh recently um psoriasis is something that I maybe have psoriasis is something that I maybe have psoriasis is something that I maybe have known to be now known to be now known to be now autoimmune, autoimmune, autoimmune, asthma. These are interesting asthma. These are interesting asthma. These are interesting conditions, not all of them conditions, not all of them conditions, not all of them life-threatening, but some of them cause life-threatening, but some of them cause life-threatening, but some of them cause a lot of discomfort. a lot of discomfort. a lot of discomfort. What is known about the formation of What is known about the formation of What is known about the formation of autoimmune conditions, either autoimmune conditions, either autoimmune conditions, either inheritance, lifestyle factors, and then inheritance, lifestyle factors, and then inheritance, lifestyle factors, and then what excites you about some of the newer what excites you about some of the newer what excites you about some of the newer treatments that might be available or treatments that might be available or treatments that might be available or currently available for those and other currently available for those and other currently available for those and other things. It's a big question, but things. It's a big question, but things. It's a big question, but >> Yeah, it's a big question. >> Yeah, it's a big question. >> Yeah, it's a big question. Well, fundamentally, again, this is I Well, fundamentally, again, this is I Well, fundamentally, again, this is I think where um think where um think where um immune system and you know, our bodies immune system and you know, our bodies immune system and you know, our bodies have I think they have playbooks like a have I think they have playbooks like a have I think they have playbooks like a football team or something that they can football team or something that they can football team or something that they can run and they can put players in run and they can put players in run and they can put players in particular configurations. Again, we particular configurations. Again, we particular configurations. Again, we call those archetypes. The immune system call those archetypes. The immune system call those archetypes. The immune system is trying to do a certain kind of thing. is trying to do a certain kind of thing. is trying to do a certain kind of thing. It's genetically and through history It's genetically and through history It's genetically and through history it's wired to work with with cells in it's wired to work with with cells in it's wired to work with with cells in certain ways. certain ways. certain ways. And I think if you look at auto And I think if you look at auto And I think if you look at auto immunities, there's a there's a view of immunities, there's a there's a view of immunities, there's a there's a view of them that they represent a misplaced them that they represent a misplaced them that they represent a misplaced immune system that's immune system that's immune system that's you know, thinks that it's under attack you know, thinks that it's under attack you know, thinks that it's under attack or it thinks that it's or it thinks that it's or it thinks that it's meant to be doing something that it meant to be doing something that it meant to be doing something that it really isn't. And so the origins of some really isn't. And so the origins of some really isn't. And so the origins of some of those are genetic, for sure. There's of those are genetic, for sure. There's of those are genetic, for sure. There's um, you know, lupus, there's a familial um, you know, lupus, there's a familial um, you know, lupus, there's a familial mutation in a a receptor that's on a B mutation in a a receptor that's on a B mutation in a a receptor that's on a B cell that normally helps turn off the cell that normally helps turn off the cell that normally helps turn off the immune system. immune system. immune system. And it's defective, and so those those And it's defective, and so those those And it's defective, and so those those people are susceptible to getting people are susceptible to getting people are susceptible to getting what are called autoantibodies. That's what are called autoantibodies. That's what are called autoantibodies. That's where the B cells, we talked a lot about where the B cells, we talked a lot about where the B cells, we talked a lot about T cells, but B cells are the ones that T cells, but B cells are the ones that T cells, but B cells are the ones that make antibodies, and they're the ones make antibodies, and they're the ones make antibodies, and they're the ones that you try to prove that you try to prove that you try to prove you know, to jazz up for COVID vaccines. you know, to jazz up for COVID vaccines. you know, to jazz up for COVID vaccines. You know, those can be overactive, and You know, those can be overactive, and You know, those can be overactive, and they can be genetically overactive, and they can be genetically overactive, and they can be genetically overactive, and you know, one wonders why we'd ever have you know, one wonders why we'd ever have you know, one wonders why we'd ever have such genes and why they'd be propagated such genes and why they'd be propagated such genes and why they'd be propagated except that maybe in some sort of except that maybe in some sort of except that maybe in some sort of circumstances you need it when there's a circumstances you need it when there's a circumstances you need it when there's a big pandemic or something, those people big pandemic or something, those people big pandemic or something, those people might have a particularly good response. might have a particularly good response. might have a particularly good response. So there's definitely genetic origins of So there's definitely genetic origins of So there's definitely genetic origins of some of these things. some of these things. some of these things. I think what's you know, what's I think what's you know, what's I think what's you know, what's interesting that to some extent is is interesting that to some extent is is interesting that to some extent is is something that you alluded to with something that you alluded to with something that you alluded to with asthma asthma asthma where asthma was one of these things where asthma was one of these things where asthma was one of these things that historically would be called an that historically would be called an that historically would be called an allergy, and it still is an allergy and allergy, and it still is an allergy and allergy, and it still is an allergy and where you have, you know, inciting where you have, you know, inciting where you have, you know, inciting things that are grass, pollen, you know, things that are grass, pollen, you know, things that are grass, pollen, you know, these sorts of things. these sorts of things. these sorts of things. But in a lot of these settings, the But in a lot of these settings, the But in a lot of these settings, the concept that that is is coming in part concept that that is is coming in part concept that that is is coming in part and parcel with, you know, the immune and parcel with, you know, the immune and parcel with, you know, the immune system system system recognizing self, you know, is is a is a recognizing self, you know, is is a is a recognizing self, you know, is is a is a thing. And thing. And thing. And to the degree that we don't understand to the degree that we don't understand to the degree that we don't understand some of the diseases as well as we some of the diseases as well as we some of the diseases as well as we should given the tools we have today, should given the tools we have today, should given the tools we have today, there's a lot there's actually work to there's a lot there's actually work to there's a lot there's actually work to be done in a lot of these areas where be done in a lot of these areas where be done in a lot of these areas where you say, "What is the immune system up you say, "What is the immune system up you say, "What is the immune system up to?" to?" to?" Like like 10 years ago we might have Like like 10 years ago we might have Like like 10 years ago we might have just said, "Well, you know, what is if I just said, "Well, you know, what is if I just said, "Well, you know, what is if I I might have taken a a lung of a I might have taken a a lung of a I might have taken a a lung of a asthmatic patient who died and like cut asthmatic patient who died and like cut asthmatic patient who died and like cut it and look at it on a microscope and it and look at it on a microscope and it and look at it on a microscope and say, 'Oh, yeah, I can really see that say, 'Oh, yeah, I can really see that say, 'Oh, yeah, I can really see that there's thickening of the airways, and there's thickening of the airways, and there's thickening of the airways, and that's why that's why they couldn't that's why that's why they couldn't that's why that's why they couldn't breathe.'" breathe.'" breathe.'" But like I'm saying, now we can go into But like I'm saying, now we can go into But like I'm saying, now we can go into those and we can look at every single those and we can look at every single those and we can look at every single cell and ask how those are wired cell and ask how those are wired cell and ask how those are wired together. Is there only one form of together. Is there only one form of together. Is there only one form of asthma? That's no, there's actually asthma? That's no, there's actually asthma? That's no, there's actually definitely there's seven or eight. And definitely there's seven or eight. And definitely there's seven or eight. And they have And that's why some people they have And that's why some people they have And that's why some people are, you know, like can take the are, you know, like can take the are, you know, like can take the inhalers and it works and other people inhalers and it works and other people inhalers and it works and other people can't. Some people they're very like can't. Some people they're very like can't. Some people they're very like chlorine sensitive. They go to a pool chlorine sensitive. They go to a pool chlorine sensitive. They go to a pool and it and and it's just like cold and it and and it's just like cold and it and and it's just like cold sensitive. So, there's there's sensitive. So, there's there's sensitive. So, there's there's variations on what sets up that variations on what sets up that variations on what sets up that inflammatory focus. And I would call it inflammatory focus. And I would call it inflammatory focus. And I would call it like an archetype. Some of them have like an archetype. Some of them have like an archetype. Some of them have lots of cells called eosinophils. Other lots of cells called eosinophils. Other lots of cells called eosinophils. Other ones have lots of cells called ones have lots of cells called ones have lots of cells called neutrophils. So, it's Asthma isn't just neutrophils. So, it's Asthma isn't just neutrophils. So, it's Asthma isn't just one disease. It's one symptom failure, one disease. It's one symptom failure, one disease. It's one symptom failure, you know, difficulty breathing, but it you know, difficulty breathing, but it you know, difficulty breathing, but it has many different sort of has many different sort of has many different sort of configurations. configurations. configurations. And and I guess I'm I would just say And and I guess I'm I would just say And and I guess I'm I would just say that in a lot of this domain, I mean, we that in a lot of this domain, I mean, we that in a lot of this domain, I mean, we have a study right now that's looking at have a study right now that's looking at have a study right now that's looking at across a bunch of autoimmunities to across a bunch of autoimmunities to across a bunch of autoimmunities to figure out whether they have things in figure out whether they have things in figure out whether they have things in common with each other. And psoriasis is common with each other. And psoriasis is common with each other. And psoriasis is one where you start to see, you know, one where you start to see, you know, one where you start to see, you know, variations and lupus for sure and variations and lupus for sure and variations and lupus for sure and inflammatory bowel disease and and and inflammatory bowel disease and and and inflammatory bowel disease and and and you know this in the clinic because you know this in the clinic because you know this in the clinic because inflammatory bowel disease, you asked inflammatory bowel disease, you asked inflammatory bowel disease, you asked about drugs, is a good case where about drugs, is a good case where about drugs, is a good case where there's a couple different drugs that there's a couple different drugs that there's a couple different drugs that for some patients work really well. for some patients work really well. for some patients work really well. TNF therapy, for example, saying that it TNF therapy, for example, saying that it TNF therapy, for example, saying that it blocks a cytokine. And some people with blocks a cytokine. And some people with blocks a cytokine. And some people with IBD, this is like really bad diarrhea IBD, this is like really bad diarrhea IBD, this is like really bad diarrhea and it's and manifests in very very and it's and manifests in very very and it's and manifests in very very painful um painful um painful um you know, some people they there's a So, you know, some people they there's a So, you know, some people they there's a So, there starts to be classes of patients there starts to be classes of patients there starts to be classes of patients that have responses to these things. that have responses to these things. that have responses to these things. Those drugs are exciting because they Those drugs are exciting because they Those drugs are exciting because they say you can modulate this. say you can modulate this. say you can modulate this. But a little bit like the checkpoint But a little bit like the checkpoint But a little bit like the checkpoint drugs, we don't really understand why drugs, we don't really understand why drugs, we don't really understand why one works in one patient and one one works in one patient and one one works in one patient and one doesn't. And inflammatory bowel disease doesn't. And inflammatory bowel disease doesn't. And inflammatory bowel disease is an autoimmunity is pretty tricky too is an autoimmunity is pretty tricky too is an autoimmunity is pretty tricky too because people will respond to a drug because people will respond to a drug because people will respond to a drug for a while and then they'll stop. And for a while and then they'll stop. And for a while and then they'll stop. And then the the doctors just have to do then the the doctors just have to do then the the doctors just have to do this like whack-a-mole thing where they this like whack-a-mole thing where they this like whack-a-mole thing where they try one and it doesn't work, they try try one and it doesn't work, they try try one and it doesn't work, they try the next and it doesn't work. the next and it doesn't work. the next and it doesn't work. >> Sounds like psychiatry. >> Sounds like psychiatry. >> Sounds like psychiatry. >> It does Yeah, there's a [laughter] lot >> It does Yeah, there's a [laughter] lot >> It does Yeah, there's a [laughter] lot of It sounds like a of It sounds like a of It sounds like a >> No disrespect to the psychiatrists, but >> No disrespect to the psychiatrists, but >> No disrespect to the psychiatrists, but >> No, but you're trying to They have a >> No, but you're trying to They have a >> No, but you're trying to They have a hard job, right? I mean hard job, right? I mean hard job, right? I mean >> Drugs will work for a while, then they >> Drugs will work for a while, then they >> Drugs will work for a while, then they don't work. Side effects crop up that don't work. Side effects crop up that don't work. Side effects crop up that never existed before. It's it's a tough never existed before. It's it's a tough never existed before. It's it's a tough one. one. one. >> Yeah, agreed. Agreed. >> Yeah, agreed. Agreed. >> Yeah, agreed. Agreed. So, yeah, autoimmunity is a real thing. So, yeah, autoimmunity is a real thing. So, yeah, autoimmunity is a real thing. It's it has you know, I think it's It's it has you know, I think it's It's it has you know, I think it's similar to cancer where we're just similar to cancer where we're just similar to cancer where we're just dealing starting to understand the fact dealing starting to understand the fact dealing starting to understand the fact that it comes in these different immune that it comes in these different immune that it comes in these different immune flavors. And so the drugs that you try flavors. And so the drugs that you try flavors. And so the drugs that you try to use is clearly immune system can do a to use is clearly immune system can do a to use is clearly immune system can do a lot of good work for us. lot of good work for us. lot of good work for us. But what you need to do to it in these But what you need to do to it in these But what you need to do to it in these different sort of archetypal immune different sort of archetypal immune different sort of archetypal immune systems is going to be different. You systems is going to be different. You systems is going to be different. You know, you see it's just going to be a know, you see it's just going to be a know, you see it's just going to be a different football team out there different football team out there different football team out there playing or they're going to running a playing or they're going to running a playing or they're going to running a different play. different play. different play. >> If somebody has a mild autoimmune >> If somebody has a mild autoimmune >> If somebody has a mild autoimmune condition, like let's say mild condition, like let's say mild condition, like let's say mild psoriasis, psoriasis, psoriasis, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> does that I've read, but that doesn't >> does that I've read, but that doesn't >> does that I've read, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Um necessarily mean anything. Um necessarily mean anything. Um I've read that that might confer, I've read that that might confer, I've read that that might confer, because it's autoimmune, that might because it's autoimmune, that might because it's autoimmune, that might confer them with a bit better confer them with a bit better confer them with a bit better viral and bacterial infection viral and bacterial infection viral and bacterial infection resistance. So, you know, there's a resistance. So, you know, there's a resistance. So, you know, there's a trade-off there. Like, okay, so scalps trade-off there. Like, okay, so scalps trade-off there. Like, okay, so scalps the cells are like sloughing off and the cells are like sloughing off and the cells are like sloughing off and like I think it's like interleukin 17 or like I think it's like interleukin 17 or like I think it's like interleukin 17 or something now. Like the treatment, they something now. Like the treatment, they something now. Like the treatment, they have some good shampoos for that. So, have some good shampoos for that. So, have some good shampoos for that. So, but but but >> And and anti-interleukin 17. >> And and anti-interleukin 17. >> And and anti-interleukin 17. >> And anti-interleukin 17, but but you >> And anti-interleukin 17, but but you >> And anti-interleukin 17, but but you that individual is that individual is that individual is um be better at fighting out other um be better at fighting out other um be better at fighting out other infections. So, you know, given there's infections. So, you know, given there's infections. So, you know, given there's a anti-interleukin 17 treatment that a anti-interleukin 17 treatment that a anti-interleukin 17 treatment that works, cool. Like, no flaky itchy scalp works, cool. Like, no flaky itchy scalp works, cool. Like, no flaky itchy scalp and and yet you're more resistant to and and yet you're more resistant to and and yet you're more resistant to infection. So, you could see how it's infection. So, you could see how it's infection. So, you could see how it's adaptive in the modern context. And now adaptive in the modern context. And now adaptive in the modern context. And now severe psoriasis can be very disruptive severe psoriasis can be very disruptive severe psoriasis can be very disruptive for people. And people might wonder like for people. And people might wonder like for people. And people might wonder like are we really talking about psoriasis, are we really talking about psoriasis, are we really talking about psoriasis, but I think it's sort of a individual but I think it's sort of a individual but I think it's sort of a individual interesting case point for why interesting case point for why interesting case point for why autoimmunity could actually be useful. autoimmunity could actually be useful. autoimmunity could actually be useful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um it's not always the case that it's >> Um it's not always the case that it's >> Um it's not always the case that it's like there to give us asthma or or flaky like there to give us asthma or or flaky like there to give us asthma or or flaky scalp. scalp. scalp. >> You know, what you could talk about >> You know, what you could talk about >> You know, what you could talk about there's a lot of disease states, you there's a lot of disease states, you there's a lot of disease states, you know, the argument for why we would ever know, the argument for why we would ever know, the argument for why we would ever have a sickle cell gene. This is the one have a sickle cell gene. This is the one have a sickle cell gene. This is the one that causes people to have hemophilia, that causes people to have hemophilia, that causes people to have hemophilia, and it's a lot of sub-Saharan African and it's a lot of sub-Saharan African and it's a lot of sub-Saharan African gene people from that origin have this gene people from that origin have this gene people from that origin have this is that it's actually defensive against is that it's actually defensive against is that it's actually defensive against malaria. It's you know, it seems to be malaria. It's you know, it seems to be malaria. It's you know, it seems to be the case that so so having that, I think the case that so so having that, I think the case that so so having that, I think that's is true a lot of these situations that's is true a lot of these situations that's is true a lot of these situations where the diversity of the human where the diversity of the human where the diversity of the human population over time, by having some of population over time, by having some of population over time, by having some of these things that make some people these things that make some people these things that make some people hypersensitive to you know hypersensitive to you know hypersensitive to you know to maybe bacteria viral infection at the to maybe bacteria viral infection at the to maybe bacteria viral infection at the cost of cost of cost of having things like psoriasis pop up or having things like psoriasis pop up or having things like psoriasis pop up or you know various various other auto you know various various other auto you know various various other auto immunities immunities immunities is the only way that you know like a a is the only way that you know like a a is the only way that you know like a a billion strong population has to to to billion strong population has to to to billion strong population has to to to to move forward and I always give this to move forward and I always give this to move forward and I always give this example to cuz I think it's a really example to cuz I think it's a really example to cuz I think it's a really straightforward one. straightforward one. straightforward one. If you take a a flask of bacteria If you take a a flask of bacteria If you take a a flask of bacteria and and you put them in glucose which is and and you put them in glucose which is and and you put them in glucose which is like sugar like you put in your coffee. like sugar like you put in your coffee. like sugar like you put in your coffee. Um maybe sucrose either one. You put Um maybe sucrose either one. You put Um maybe sucrose either one. You put them in a in a in a simple sugar them in a in a in a simple sugar them in a in a in a simple sugar uh and you watch the colony grow. You'll uh and you watch the colony grow. You'll uh and you watch the colony grow. You'll get these cells that grow really really get these cells that grow really really get these cells that grow really really fast. The bacteria you know becomes fast. The bacteria you know becomes fast. The bacteria you know becomes billions trillions of of individual billions trillions of of individual billions trillions of of individual cells but there's almost always some cells but there's almost always some cells but there's almost always some just losers that are dividing slowly. just losers that are dividing slowly. just losers that are dividing slowly. And it's for whatever reason the system And it's for whatever reason the system And it's for whatever reason the system always brings us off you know like why always brings us off you know like why always brings us off you know like why would you do that? Why would the system would you do that? Why would the system would you do that? Why would the system why why wouldn't just the winners win? why why wouldn't just the winners win? why why wouldn't just the winners win? But if you take a little bit of that But if you take a little bit of that But if you take a little bit of that culture and you put it into galactose culture and you put it into galactose culture and you put it into galactose which is a milk sugar which is a milk sugar which is a milk sugar often the ones that were winners don't often the ones that were winners don't often the ones that were winners don't win anymore and it's from the loser pool win anymore and it's from the loser pool win anymore and it's from the loser pool that the new ones emerge. And this is a that the new ones emerge. And this is a that the new ones emerge. And this is a case of like you know like a case of like you know like a case of like you know like a crowd crowd crowd uh fitness that comes from diversity of uh fitness that comes from diversity of uh fitness that comes from diversity of of genes and so some of these things of genes and so some of these things of genes and so some of these things that make some of us susceptible disease that make some of us susceptible disease that make some of us susceptible disease are also as you're pointing out in other are also as you're pointing out in other are also as you're pointing out in other situations going to be quite good for situations going to be quite good for situations going to be quite good for you and and and that seems unfair at the you and and and that seems unfair at the you and and and that seems unfair at the time that you have these kind of bad time that you have these kind of bad time that you have these kind of bad genes but like a different day you would genes but like a different day you would genes but like a different day you would have been happy or have been happy or have been happy or So I think there's a lot to be said and So I think there's a lot to be said and So I think there's a lot to be said and and that's also why a lot of the things and that's also why a lot of the things and that's also why a lot of the things that we look at you know anecdotally that we look at you know anecdotally that we look at you know anecdotally somebody takes a supplement and it works somebody takes a supplement and it works somebody takes a supplement and it works for them. for them. for them. I mean I don't know how much you know I mean I don't know how much you know I mean I don't know how much you know about this literature but the the about this literature but the the about this literature but the the differences in your and my vitamin differences in your and my vitamin differences in your and my vitamin requirements is going to be quite requirements is going to be quite requirements is going to be quite profound because the metabolic enzymes profound because the metabolic enzymes profound because the metabolic enzymes we have for the vitamins that we might we have for the vitamins that we might we have for the vitamins that we might take in are going to be different take in are going to be different take in are going to be different between us and so these FDA limits these between us and so these FDA limits these between us and so these FDA limits these these numbers are averages. Some people these numbers are averages. Some people these numbers are averages. Some people may need five times that amount of you may need five times that amount of you may need five times that amount of you know vitamin X other do may need a know vitamin X other do may need a know vitamin X other do may need a fifth. fifth. fifth. >> No I think this super critical. The >> No I think this super critical. The >> No I think this super critical. The supplement world is kind of like supplement world is kind of like supplement world is kind of like scattershot. While I appreciate the scattershot. While I appreciate the scattershot. While I appreciate the rational grounding in all of it, I I rational grounding in all of it, I I rational grounding in all of it, I I think uh think uh think uh throughout today's conversation, I think throughout today's conversation, I think throughout today's conversation, I think that that that I picked up on you know, I the fact that I picked up on you know, I the fact that I picked up on you know, I the fact that we covered things like peptides and we covered things like peptides and we covered things like peptides and things like that. And I'm not certain things like that. And I'm not certain things like that. And I'm not certain about the peptide question across the about the peptide question across the about the peptide question across the board. It's clear some are beneficial, board. It's clear some are beneficial, board. It's clear some are beneficial, it's clear some are still experimental. it's clear some are still experimental. it's clear some are still experimental. I'm just a big fan of more data. And I'm just a big fan of more data. And I'm just a big fan of more data. And more data collected the right ways and more data collected the right ways and more data collected the right ways and communicate the right ways as the same communicate the right ways as the same communicate the right ways as the same way with the vaccines and all the rest. way with the vaccines and all the rest. way with the vaccines and all the rest. You have an amazing Substack. I know You have an amazing Substack. I know You have an amazing Substack. I know that because I've spent time there. that because I've spent time there. that because I've spent time there. >> Oh, thanks. >> Oh, thanks. >> Oh, thanks. >> Part of the reason we invited you here >> Part of the reason we invited you here >> Part of the reason we invited you here today is to learn about the immune today is to learn about the immune today is to learn about the immune system and we barely talked about system and we barely talked about system and we barely talked about cancer, I realize. We're going to have cancer, I realize. We're going to have cancer, I realize. We're going to have to get you back to talk about that. But to get you back to talk about that. But to get you back to talk about that. But you've done an amazing job of educating you've done an amazing job of educating you've done an amazing job of educating us on the immune system. I really want us on the immune system. I really want us on the immune system. I really want to thank you and speak on behalf of to thank you and speak on behalf of to thank you and speak on behalf of many, many people for that. Never before many, many people for that. Never before many, many people for that. Never before has somebody presented in in the ways has somebody presented in in the ways has somebody presented in in the ways that you have. And as somebody who that you have. And as somebody who that you have. And as somebody who thinks in analogy I and likes to teach thinks in analogy I and likes to teach thinks in analogy I and likes to teach in analogy, I really appreciate that. in analogy, I really appreciate that. in analogy, I really appreciate that. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> The uh that uh that stance. What >> The uh that uh that stance. What >> The uh that uh that stance. What inspired you to get into inspired you to get into inspired you to get into >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> public education about science and >> public education about science and >> public education about science and health before coming on this podcast? health before coming on this podcast? health before coming on this podcast? And by the way, everyone should check And by the way, everyone should check And by the way, everyone should check out Max's Substack. We'll put a link to out Max's Substack. We'll put a link to out Max's Substack. We'll put a link to it in the in the show notes. It's it's it in the in the show notes. It's it's it in the in the show notes. It's it's so thoughtful, so thoughtful, so thoughtful, so nuanced, so relevant to all the so nuanced, so relevant to all the so nuanced, so relevant to all the issues that we're talking about if not issues that we're talking about if not issues that we're talking about if not directly then in the in the general directly then in the in the general directly then in the in the general contour and in some cases directly. And contour and in some cases directly. And contour and in some cases directly. And I I imagine you're going to continue I I imagine you're going to continue I I imagine you're going to continue doing this. So what inspired you to do doing this. So what inspired you to do doing this. So what inspired you to do it and um it and um it and um how can we make sure that you continue how can we make sure that you continue how can we make sure that you continue to do it? to do it? to do it? >> Yeah. Well, thank you for the call out. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for the call out. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for the call out. Um Um Um it is a something I've been trying to it is a something I've been trying to it is a something I've been trying to work on for about 10 years and it it work on for about 10 years and it it work on for about 10 years and it it really started when um really started when um really started when um a group of us, you know, we're we're a group of us, you know, we're we're a group of us, you know, we're we're hanging around after a conference hanging around after a conference hanging around after a conference and we were talking about some of the and we were talking about some of the and we were talking about some of the issues with science and society. issues with science and society. issues with science and society. And there were many. You know, there's And there were many. You know, there's And there were many. You know, there's many. There's there's we've surfaced a many. There's there's we've surfaced a many. There's there's we've surfaced a few of them today. But I think something few of them today. But I think something few of them today. But I think something that you guys are working on it is is that you guys are working on it is is that you guys are working on it is is the capacity for everyone else to think the capacity for everyone else to think the capacity for everyone else to think as a scientist. Like what you can ask as a scientist. Like what you can ask as a scientist. Like what you can ask yourself you know, oh, why don't people yourself you know, oh, why don't people yourself you know, oh, why don't people agree with this data that you show and agree with this data that you show and agree with this data that you show and take the action that seems logical? take the action that seems logical? take the action that seems logical? But then you present it in such a way But then you present it in such a way But then you present it in such a way that they can't, you know, that they did that they can't, you know, that they did that they can't, you know, that they did two things two things are important two things two things are important two things two things are important about it. I think one of them is you if about it. I think one of them is you if about it. I think one of them is you if you present the information in a format you present the information in a format you present the information in a format that isn't, you know, familiar, you're that isn't, you know, familiar, you're that isn't, you know, familiar, you're not going to be able to teach anything not going to be able to teach anything not going to be able to teach anything anybody anything about what's important. anybody anything about what's important. anybody anything about what's important. But the other thing is that, you know, But the other thing is that, you know, But the other thing is that, you know, we were talking we we spent some time we were talking we we spent some time we were talking we we spent some time talking about this and we consulted some talking about this and we consulted some talking about this and we consulted some other folks that are in science comms other folks that are in science comms other folks that are in science comms and we realized, you know, the other and we realized, you know, the other and we realized, you know, the other thing is that that that if you say thing is that that that if you say thing is that that that if you say you're a scientist, you're a scientist, you're a scientist, it's not a neutral statement. it's not a neutral statement. it's not a neutral statement. Science has a history and history is Science has a history and history is Science has a history and history is stronger than science actually. So the stronger than science actually. So the stronger than science actually. So the history like, you know, so there's history like, you know, so there's history like, you know, so there's there's there's hesitancy among African there's there's hesitancy among African there's there's hesitancy among African Americans, for example, to take drugs Americans, for example, to take drugs Americans, for example, to take drugs because of things of history of because of things of history of because of things of history of Tuskegee, which is like 80 years ago. Tuskegee, which is like 80 years ago. Tuskegee, which is like 80 years ago. All right, you know, however long ago, All right, you know, however long ago, All right, you know, however long ago, 60 years ago. Well, it's it's it's it's 60 years ago. Well, it's it's it's it's 60 years ago. Well, it's it's it's it's it's not in their lifetime and in many it's not in their lifetime and in many it's not in their lifetime and in many of these people. And so part of the of these people. And so part of the of these people. And so part of the realization was like maybe part of what realization was like maybe part of what realization was like maybe part of what we really should be doing as scientists we really should be doing as scientists we really should be doing as scientists is one of part of our job should be to is one of part of our job should be to is one of part of our job should be to figure out how we relate to other figure out how we relate to other figure out how we relate to other humans. And it's you know, there's a humans. And it's you know, there's a humans. And it's you know, there's a painting of this in the obviously the painting of this in the obviously the painting of this in the obviously the media and and things help this happen media and and things help this happen media and and things help this happen because it makes it interesting to have because it makes it interesting to have because it makes it interesting to have us, you know, kind of a nerdy scientist us, you know, kind of a nerdy scientist us, you know, kind of a nerdy scientist and and we got all the you can be a and and we got all the you can be a and and we got all the you can be a nerdy scientist. I heard you and you nerdy scientist. I heard you and you nerdy scientist. I heard you and you know, but also you're a human, you're a know, but also you're a human, you're a know, but also you're a human, you're a human being. You have you know, every human being. You have you know, every human being. You have you know, every everything foibles too, you know, loves everything foibles too, you know, loves everything foibles too, you know, loves and hates and and um and hates and and um and hates and and um >> Certainly foibles. I have plenty of >> Certainly foibles. I have plenty of >> Certainly foibles. I have plenty of those. [laughter] those. [laughter] those. [laughter] >> We can get in that after the podcast, >> We can get in that after the podcast, >> We can get in that after the podcast, but but you know, the this concept of if but but you know, the this concept of if but but you know, the this concept of if we want to relate, um you know, if we we want to relate, um you know, if we we want to relate, um you know, if we want to have impact of the work you do, want to have impact of the work you do, want to have impact of the work you do, if you want it to be relevant, at some if you want it to be relevant, at some if you want it to be relevant, at some point you have to the science science as point you have to the science science as point you have to the science science as a field needs to make sure that it a field needs to make sure that it a field needs to make sure that it doesn't ostracize itself from people. doesn't ostracize itself from people. doesn't ostracize itself from people. And I think one of the issues there And I think one of the issues there And I think one of the issues there I'll just use the word ostracize. You I'll just use the word ostracize. You I'll just use the word ostracize. You know, is separate is is this concept know, is separate is is this concept know, is separate is is this concept that we speak in our our vocabulary that that we speak in our our vocabulary that that we speak in our our vocabulary that is gets very precise is gets very precise is gets very precise and we forget that, you know, if you and we forget that, you know, if you and we forget that, you know, if you hear a foreign language and you hear one hear a foreign language and you hear one hear a foreign language and you hear one word that you don't recognize it, it word that you don't recognize it, it word that you don't recognize it, it throws you off for a few sentences. And throws you off for a few sentences. And throws you off for a few sentences. And next thing you know, you don't know what next thing you know, you don't know what next thing you know, you don't know what people are talking about. And I I think people are talking about. And I I think people are talking about. And I I think that concept that that, you know, and that concept that that, you know, and that concept that that, you know, and again, this is where I think bringing it again, this is where I think bringing it again, this is where I think bringing it down a level and saying, let's give it down a level and saying, let's give it down a level and saying, let's give it analogy, let's give it That strikes analogy, let's give it That strikes analogy, let's give it That strikes [clears throat] me as really, really [clears throat] me as really, really [clears throat] me as really, really important to the impact that you can important to the impact that you can important to the impact that you can have with with your science. And and have with with your science. And and have with with your science. And and that and and that science can have in in that and and that science can have in in that and and that science can have in in terms of teaching people what we could terms of teaching people what we could terms of teaching people what we could do better, do better, do better, which I think we all want to do. which I think we all want to do. which I think we all want to do. But if you end up thinking that science But if you end up thinking that science But if you end up thinking that science is a distrusted, weird collection of is a distrusted, weird collection of is a distrusted, weird collection of people that have different motivations people that have different motivations people that have different motivations and um designs, then then you've lost. and um designs, then then you've lost. and um designs, then then you've lost. The The The that that the potential for it to do that that the potential for it to do that that the potential for it to do good is is gone. So, the Substack came good is is gone. So, the Substack came good is is gone. So, the Substack came about it because I was like, well, I about it because I was like, well, I about it because I was like, well, I need to write as a person a little bit need to write as a person a little bit need to write as a person a little bit more and and tell about some of the more and and tell about some of the more and and tell about some of the you know, the the you know, the the you know, the the time that you spend on this and why it time that you spend on this and why it time that you spend on this and why it matters and what it's like to to do this matters and what it's like to to do this matters and what it's like to to do this work and and and some respects also what work and and and some respects also what work and and and some respects also what it's like to to lose in this, which it's like to to lose in this, which it's like to to lose in this, which happens way more often than the, you happens way more often than the, you happens way more often than the, you know, it's it's like a casino, right? In know, it's it's like a casino, right? In know, it's it's like a casino, right? In science In science you hear the bells science In science you hear the bells science In science you hear the bells and some cool device comes out and it's and some cool device comes out and it's and some cool device comes out and it's But but there's a bunch of people But but there's a bunch of people But but there's a bunch of people pulling the arm, you know, and they're pulling the arm, you know, and they're pulling the arm, you know, and they're they're they're not winning. they're they're not winning. they're they're not winning. And so, And so, And so, >> Well [laughter] put. >> Well [laughter] put. >> Well [laughter] put. >> So, I feel like that's kind of an >> So, I feel like that's kind of an >> So, I feel like that's kind of an important part of this that that Again, important part of this that that Again, important part of this that that Again, it's not the glory story always. it's not the glory story always. it's not the glory story always. Um you know, the best some of the best Um you know, the best some of the best Um you know, the best some of the best selling books about science are the selling books about science are the selling books about science are the wins. wins. wins. But um you know, that might be more But um you know, that might be more But um you know, that might be more relatable at some point to get all of relatable at some point to get all of relatable at some point to get all of it. So, that's kind of what what I was it. So, that's kind of what what I was it. So, that's kind of what what I was trying to put together and and at the trying to put together and and at the trying to put together and and at the same time, I think the immune system is same time, I think the immune system is same time, I think the immune system is also just so relevant and so important also just so relevant and so important also just so relevant and so important and it's got all these different facets and it's got all these different facets and it's got all these different facets and these archetypes and these sorts of and these archetypes and these sorts of and these archetypes and these sorts of things that it's doing that we kind of things that it's doing that we kind of things that it's doing that we kind of scratch the surface today. So, anyway, scratch the surface today. So, anyway, scratch the surface today. So, anyway, thanks for calling it out. I've been thanks for calling it out. I've been thanks for calling it out. I've been working on it for a bit. working on it for a bit. working on it for a bit. >> Well, I hope you continue to and um >> Well, I hope you continue to and um >> Well, I hope you continue to and um thank you so much for the work you've thank you so much for the work you've thank you so much for the work you've been doing in your laboratory and all been doing in your laboratory and all been doing in your laboratory and all the people in your laboratory doing that the people in your laboratory doing that the people in your laboratory doing that work because now you're the one calling work because now you're the one calling work because now you're the one calling the shots while other people do the shots while other people do the shots while other people do experiments, but um for your advocacy experiments, but um for your advocacy experiments, but um for your advocacy for science and public education is for science and public education is for science and public education is huge. We need more people like you, but huge. We need more people like you, but huge. We need more people like you, but you certainly put your own unique you certainly put your own unique you certainly put your own unique signature on it and the Substack signature on it and the Substack signature on it and the Substack reflects that. It's an incredibly reflects that. It's an incredibly reflects that. It's an incredibly interesting set of reads interesting set of reads interesting set of reads and people will really learn. So that's and people will really learn. So that's and people will really learn. So that's essential especially in this day and essential especially in this day and essential especially in this day and age, but even not in this day and age age, but even not in this day and age age, but even not in this day and age science is is just really cool and with science is is just really cool and with science is is just really cool and with all the meaningless drivel out there, all the meaningless drivel out there, all the meaningless drivel out there, it's nice to go to a place like your it's nice to go to a place like your it's nice to go to a place like your Substack and Substack and Substack and I'm speaking to the audience now. I'm speaking to the audience now. I'm speaking to the audience now. You will learn if you read You will learn if you read You will learn if you read Max's Substack. You will be inspired by Max's Substack. You will be inspired by Max's Substack. You will be inspired by certain things and I promise you and so certain things and I promise you and so certain things and I promise you and so I'm saying this intentionally mark my I'm saying this intentionally mark my I'm saying this intentionally mark my words at some point some somebody's words at some point some somebody's words at some point some somebody's going to contact you that they decided going to contact you that they decided going to contact you that they decided to study the immune system or they learn to study the immune system or they learn to study the immune system or they learn something or they explored a a novel something or they explored a a novel something or they explored a a novel treatment with their physician in a in a treatment with their physician in a in a treatment with their physician in a in a given unfortunate or maybe even given unfortunate or maybe even given unfortunate or maybe even fortunate situation that bettered their fortunate situation that bettered their fortunate situation that bettered their lives. It's it's incredible what um lives. It's it's incredible what um lives. It's it's incredible what um Substacks and conversations like the one Substacks and conversations like the one Substacks and conversations like the one you've been willing to have today and you've been willing to have today and you've been willing to have today and going forward can can really do. So going forward can can really do. So going forward can can really do. So thank you so much. Definitely come back thank you so much. Definitely come back thank you so much. Definitely come back again and tell us about cancer and other again and tell us about cancer and other again and tell us about cancer and other other things because I I took us off other things because I I took us off other things because I I took us off course quite a lot, but I I had a great course quite a lot, but I I had a great course quite a lot, but I I had a great time talking about all of this and I'm time talking about all of this and I'm time talking about all of this and I'm going to be thinking about a lot of it going to be thinking about a lot of it going to be thinking about a lot of it and really appreciate you. and really appreciate you. and really appreciate you. >> Yeah, well same here. Thanks so much. >> Yeah, well same here. Thanks so much. >> Yeah, well same here. Thanks so much. >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Max Crummel. To discussion with Dr. Max Crummel. To discussion with Dr. Max Crummel. To learn more about his work and to find a learn more about his work and to find a learn more about his work and to find a link to his superb Substack, please see link to his superb Substack, please see link to his superb Substack, please see the links in the show note caption. If the links in the show note caption. If the links in the show note caption. If you're learning from and/or enjoying you're learning from and/or enjoying you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our this podcast, please subscribe to our this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, cost way to support us. In addition, cost way to support us. 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It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an Operating It's entitled Protocols, an Operating It's entitled Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more than 5 years and that's based on more than 5 years and that's based on more than 5 years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, to everything from sleep to exercise, to everything from sleep to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to stress control, protocols related to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. 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