How To Rewire the Brain’s Response to Pain and Reward | Eric Garland

You have one integrated therapy that can You have one integrated therapy that can simultaneously address addictive simultaneously address addictive simultaneously address addictive behavior, emotional distress, [music] behavior, emotional distress, [music] behavior, emotional distress, [music] and chronic pain. MORE is a breakthrough and chronic pain. MORE is a breakthrough and chronic pain. MORE is a breakthrough evidence-based mindbody therapy rooted evidence-based mindbody therapy rooted evidence-based mindbody therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and modern in ancient wisdom and modern in ancient wisdom and modern neuroscience. Backed by $90 million in neuroscience. Backed by $90 million in neuroscience. Backed by $90 million in federal research in 16 clinical trials, federal research in 16 clinical trials, federal research in 16 clinical trials, Moore has been proven to be three times Moore has been proven to be three times Moore has been proven to be three times as effective as standard therapy. >> Eric Garland, welcome to the show. >> Eric Garland, welcome to the show. >> Thanks for having me so much, Dan. >> Thanks for having me so much, Dan. >> Thanks for having me so much, Dan. Excited to be here with you. Excited to be here with you. Excited to be here with you. >> I'm excited to have you here. All right, >> I'm excited to have you here. All right, >> I'm excited to have you here. All right, let let's just start with a little let let's just start with a little let let's just start with a little background. I'd love to hear about the background. I'd love to hear about the background. I'd love to hear about the origin story for more or M o r e origin story for more or M o r e origin story for more or M o r e mindfulness oriented recovery mindfulness oriented recovery mindfulness oriented recovery enhancement if memory serves. Part of enhancement if memory serves. Part of enhancement if memory serves. Part of the origin story is you being able to the origin story is you being able to the origin story is you being able to avoid surgery through mindfulness. avoid surgery through mindfulness. avoid surgery through mindfulness. >> Yeah, if you want to start there. I was >> Yeah, if you want to start there. I was >> Yeah, if you want to start there. I was going to tell you the story of how I got going to tell you the story of how I got going to tell you the story of how I got into this whole thing to begin with. So, into this whole thing to begin with. So, into this whole thing to begin with. So, I don't know. You know, I I think I I don't know. You know, I I think I I don't know. You know, I I think I always gravitated to meditative states always gravitated to meditative states always gravitated to meditative states of consciousness. I can remember being a of consciousness. I can remember being a of consciousness. I can remember being a little kid and swimming in my parents' little kid and swimming in my parents' little kid and swimming in my parents' pool and I'd hold my breath and sink pool and I'd hold my breath and sink pool and I'd hold my breath and sink down to the bottom of the pool and then down to the bottom of the pool and then down to the bottom of the pool and then I'd look up at the sunlight on the top I'd look up at the sunlight on the top I'd look up at the sunlight on the top of the water and I would just get lost of the water and I would just get lost of the water and I would just get lost in the in the ripples of light and and in the in the ripples of light and and in the in the ripples of light and and just totally my mind would become quiet just totally my mind would become quiet just totally my mind would become quiet and spacious and then I'd run out of and spacious and then I'd run out of and spacious and then I'd run out of breath. I have to scramble, swim back up breath. I have to scramble, swim back up breath. I have to scramble, swim back up to the surface, take another breath and to the surface, take another breath and to the surface, take another breath and then sink back down and I'd kind of do then sink back down and I'd kind of do then sink back down and I'd kind of do it over and over again. So I think I was it over and over again. So I think I was it over and over again. So I think I was kind of an unusual kid and then when I kind of an unusual kid and then when I kind of an unusual kid and then when I got to college I a friend taught me how got to college I a friend taught me how got to college I a friend taught me how to practice mindfulness meditation for to practice mindfulness meditation for to practice mindfulness meditation for the very first time and I just the very first time and I just the very first time and I just immediately gravitated to it. I mean, I immediately gravitated to it. I mean, I immediately gravitated to it. I mean, I just I just felt like one of the most just I just felt like one of the most just I just felt like one of the most important things in my entire life. And important things in my entire life. And important things in my entire life. And I subsequently discovered that I subsequently discovered that I subsequently discovered that mindfulness meditation was not only a mindfulness meditation was not only a mindfulness meditation was not only a key to accessing I think it seemed to key to accessing I think it seemed to key to accessing I think it seemed to have this great healing power. And at have this great healing power. And at have this great healing power. And at the time I I was studying psychology and the time I I was studying psychology and the time I I was studying psychology and at that time psychology was all rats and at that time psychology was all rats and at that time psychology was all rats and brains and I really I I did not find brains and I really I I did not find brains and I really I I did not find much in in psychology at that time much in in psychology at that time much in in psychology at that time around consciousness. So I really had to around consciousness. So I really had to around consciousness. So I really had to turn my focus into studying the turn my focus into studying the turn my focus into studying the contemplative wisdom traditions. For contemplative wisdom traditions. For contemplative wisdom traditions. For example, Bajriana Buddhism, Adva Adant example, Bajriana Buddhism, Adva Adant example, Bajriana Buddhism, Adva Adant Hinduism, Dowoism, mystical branches of Hinduism, Dowoism, mystical branches of Hinduism, Dowoism, mystical branches of the Abrahamic religions. And in these the Abrahamic religions. And in these the Abrahamic religions. And in these contemplative paths, I I saw there was contemplative paths, I I saw there was contemplative paths, I I saw there was this really sophisticated model for this really sophisticated model for this really sophisticated model for understanding human consciousness. So I understanding human consciousness. So I understanding human consciousness. So I I wanted to get my HD in comparative I wanted to get my HD in comparative I wanted to get my HD in comparative religion and philosophy. And I got religion and philosophy. And I got religion and philosophy. And I got rejected from every single one of those rejected from every single one of those rejected from every single one of those programs. And thank God for that because programs. And thank God for that because programs. And thank God for that because I would have lived a life of abject I would have lived a life of abject I would have lived a life of abject poverty. other. So I went into the poverty. other. So I went into the poverty. other. So I went into the mental health field. I was getting my mental health field. I was getting my mental health field. I was getting my masters in social work when I masters in social work when I masters in social work when I encountered clinical hypnosis and that encountered clinical hypnosis and that encountered clinical hypnosis and that was like the closest thing I could find was like the closest thing I could find was like the closest thing I could find in modern health care that was related in modern health care that was related in modern health care that was related to meditation. So then I went to get my to meditation. So then I went to get my to meditation. So then I went to get my PhD from UNC Chapel Hill to to do PhD from UNC Chapel Hill to to do PhD from UNC Chapel Hill to to do clinical research on hypnosis. And I'll clinical research on hypnosis. And I'll clinical research on hypnosis. And I'll never forget this. I I moved my wife and never forget this. I I moved my wife and never forget this. I I moved my wife and my my newborn son into a newly purchased my my newborn son into a newly purchased my my newborn son into a newly purchased house in North Carolina. And the first house in North Carolina. And the first house in North Carolina. And the first night I was in the new house, my new night I was in the new house, my new night I was in the new house, my new mentor called me and he said, "Eric, I'm mentor called me and he said, "Eric, I'm mentor called me and he said, "Eric, I'm sorry. I can't work with you anymore. My sorry. I can't work with you anymore. My sorry. I can't work with you anymore. My grants have run out and I I got to do grants have run out and I I got to do grants have run out and I I got to do fundraising. I can't take on a student." fundraising. I can't take on a student." fundraising. I can't take on a student." And I just I cried all night long. I And I just I cried all night long. I And I just I cried all night long. I remember that. But then in the morning, remember that. But then in the morning, remember that. But then in the morning, I woke up and he said, "You know, I I woke up and he said, "You know, I I woke up and he said, "You know, I can't work with you, but I'm just can't work with you, but I'm just can't work with you, but I'm just curious. Would you per chance be curious. Would you per chance be curious. Would you per chance be interested in studying mindfulness?" And interested in studying mindfulness?" And interested in studying mindfulness?" And I said, "Mindfulness? People study I said, "Mindfulness? People study I said, "Mindfulness? People study mindfulness?" And and my whole my whole mindfulness?" And and my whole my whole mindfulness?" And and my whole my whole career, you know, 20-year research career, you know, 20-year research career, you know, 20-year research program unfolded from that point. So I program unfolded from that point. So I program unfolded from that point. So I really I think my whole story has been really I think my whole story has been really I think my whole story has been woven with synchronicity and woven with synchronicity and woven with synchronicity and serendipity. So from that point I I serendipity. So from that point I I serendipity. So from that point I I started pursuing the study of started pursuing the study of started pursuing the study of mindfulness for pain and addiction and mindfulness for pain and addiction and mindfulness for pain and addiction and at the time I was working in I was at the time I was working in I was at the time I was working in I was working as a psychotherapist in an working as a psychotherapist in an working as a psychotherapist in an integrative medicine center alongside integrative medicine center alongside integrative medicine center alongside physicians and nurses and I was the physicians and nurses and I was the physicians and nurses and I was the headshrinker guy. So they would send me headshrinker guy. So they would send me headshrinker guy. So they would send me you know their hardest cases the most you know their hardest cases the most you know their hardest cases the most complex patients that had these really complex patients that had these really complex patients that had these really chronic overlapping conditions. So chronic overlapping conditions. So chronic overlapping conditions. So mental health problems, substance use mental health problems, substance use mental health problems, substance use disorders, chronic pain and disorders, chronic pain and disorders, chronic pain and psychossematic conditions. So the people psychossematic conditions. So the people psychossematic conditions. So the people they just really didn't know how to they just really didn't know how to they just really didn't know how to help. And so I started working with help. And so I started working with help. And so I started working with these patients and trying to integrate these patients and trying to integrate these patients and trying to integrate mindfulness into the practice of mindfulness into the practice of mindfulness into the practice of psychotherapy. And and at this time psychotherapy. And and at this time psychotherapy. And and at this time mindfulness was not what it is today. mindfulness was not what it is today. mindfulness was not what it is today. You know, it wasn't wasn't everywhere You know, it wasn't wasn't everywhere You know, it wasn't wasn't everywhere like on magazines at the checkout stand like on magazines at the checkout stand like on magazines at the checkout stand in the supermarket. Far less known. So in the supermarket. Far less known. So in the supermarket. Far less known. So there really weren't models that I knew there really weren't models that I knew there really weren't models that I knew of of how to integrate mindfulness into of of how to integrate mindfulness into of of how to integrate mindfulness into psychotherapy. There actually were at psychotherapy. There actually were at psychotherapy. There actually were at the time. that was Cabbis Zen's the time. that was Cabbis Zen's the time. that was Cabbis Zen's mindfulness-based stress reduction, but mindfulness-based stress reduction, but mindfulness-based stress reduction, but I wasn't even aware of it at the moment I wasn't even aware of it at the moment I wasn't even aware of it at the moment when I was creating more. And so I just when I was creating more. And so I just when I was creating more. And so I just started winging it and integrating started winging it and integrating started winging it and integrating mindfulness meditation into my cognitive mindfulness meditation into my cognitive mindfulness meditation into my cognitive behavioral therapy practice and pulling behavioral therapy practice and pulling behavioral therapy practice and pulling in threads of positive psychology. And in threads of positive psychology. And in threads of positive psychology. And that was really became the living living that was really became the living living that was really became the living living laboratory, my clinical practice with laboratory, my clinical practice with laboratory, my clinical practice with these patients where I where the genesis these patients where I where the genesis these patients where I where the genesis of of this new therapeutic approach of of this new therapeutic approach of of this new therapeutic approach came. So then at the same time I was came. So then at the same time I was came. So then at the same time I was studying neuroscience and the cognitive studying neuroscience and the cognitive studying neuroscience and the cognitive science of addiction and stress and science of addiction and stress and science of addiction and stress and trying to use that to inform the trying to use that to inform the trying to use that to inform the development of this new therapy. And development of this new therapy. And development of this new therapy. And then I was really fortunate I I received then I was really fortunate I I received then I was really fortunate I I received a grant from the mind and life institute a grant from the mind and life institute a grant from the mind and life institute which was established by his holiness which was established by his holiness which was established by his holiness the Daly Lama who I know you've met and the Daly Lama who I know you've met and the Daly Lama who I know you've met and I had the great fortune of receiving I had the great fortune of receiving I had the great fortune of receiving this this grant to do the first study of this this grant to do the first study of this this grant to do the first study of more and and it was really sweet man. more and and it was really sweet man. more and and it was really sweet man. The the the the award letter was signed The the the the award letter was signed The the the the award letter was signed by his holiness the Dalai Lama. So it by his holiness the Dalai Lama. So it by his holiness the Dalai Lama. So it was just was it was a beautiful moment was just was it was a beautiful moment was just was it was a beautiful moment in my life and and and I conducted the in my life and and and I conducted the in my life and and and I conducted the first study of Moore in people with first study of Moore in people with first study of Moore in people with alcohol use problems and that gave us a alcohol use problems and that gave us a alcohol use problems and that gave us a clear signal that this might really be clear signal that this might really be clear signal that this might really be an effective treatment. So then when I an effective treatment. So then when I an effective treatment. So then when I went to into my first academic position went to into my first academic position went to into my first academic position at Florida State University, I was a at Florida State University, I was a at Florida State University, I was a young professor trying to figure out, young professor trying to figure out, young professor trying to figure out, you know, what am I going to do with my you know, what am I going to do with my you know, what am I going to do with my career and I bumped into a physician and career and I bumped into a physician and career and I bumped into a physician and he said, "Wait a second. You've been he said, "Wait a second. You've been he said, "Wait a second. You've been doing clinical work on mindfulness for doing clinical work on mindfulness for doing clinical work on mindfulness for pain, but your research is on pain, but your research is on pain, but your research is on mindfulness for addiction. Well, you're mindfulness for addiction. Well, you're mindfulness for addiction. Well, you're in Florida, man. This is the pain pill in Florida, man. This is the pain pill in Florida, man. This is the pain pill mill capital of the USA, and we have mill capital of the USA, and we have mill capital of the USA, and we have this big problem with opioids here. I this big problem with opioids here. I this big problem with opioids here. I have all these patients in my clinic, have all these patients in my clinic, have all these patients in my clinic, and we just don't know how to help these and we just don't know how to help these and we just don't know how to help these folks. They've been on on pain pills for folks. They've been on on pain pills for folks. They've been on on pain pills for more than a decade, and many of them are more than a decade, and many of them are more than a decade, and many of them are have a problem with opioids, and we just have a problem with opioids, and we just have a problem with opioids, and we just don't know how to help them. Maybe you don't know how to help them. Maybe you don't know how to help them. Maybe you could help them. From that moment, that could help them. From that moment, that could help them. From that moment, that was the springboard to to two decades of was the springboard to to two decades of was the springboard to to two decades of of research and clinical practice in of research and clinical practice in of research and clinical practice in this area. this area. this area. >> Do you want to talk about the surgery or >> Do you want to talk about the surgery or >> Do you want to talk about the surgery or the non-surgery? the non-surgery? the non-surgery? >> You want me to talk about that? So, I >> You want me to talk about that? So, I >> You want me to talk about that? So, I developed this way way before that. That developed this way way before that. That developed this way way before that. That was one of life's greatest ironies. So I was one of life's greatest ironies. So I was one of life's greatest ironies. So I developed this this treatment I adapted developed this this treatment I adapted developed this this treatment I adapted more as a treatment for chronic pain and more as a treatment for chronic pain and more as a treatment for chronic pain and opioid misuse in 2010 and started opioid misuse in 2010 and started opioid misuse in 2010 and started landing grants from the National landing grants from the National landing grants from the National Institutes of Health and the Department Institutes of Health and the Department Institutes of Health and the Department of Defense to study this therapy. And of Defense to study this therapy. And of Defense to study this therapy. And then 7 years later I had a severe then 7 years later I had a severe then 7 years later I had a severe herniated disc L4 L5 large extrusion of herniated disc L4 L5 large extrusion of herniated disc L4 L5 large extrusion of disc material into the canal pressing on disc material into the canal pressing on disc material into the canal pressing on my spinal nerve and that hurt pretty bad my spinal nerve and that hurt pretty bad my spinal nerve and that hurt pretty bad man. pretty severe sciatica. You know, man. pretty severe sciatica. You know, man. pretty severe sciatica. You know, it was it was so severe that I couldn't it was it was so severe that I couldn't it was it was so severe that I couldn't sleep. I had to actually wrap an ice sleep. I had to actually wrap an ice sleep. I had to actually wrap an ice pack around my leg for about 6 months in pack around my leg for about 6 months in pack around my leg for about 6 months in order to sleep. I never got surgery order to sleep. I never got surgery order to sleep. I never got surgery because mindfulness got me through it. because mindfulness got me through it. because mindfulness got me through it. And the principles of more at large got And the principles of more at large got And the principles of more at large got me through it. Unfortunately, I have me through it. Unfortunately, I have me through it. Unfortunately, I have some firstirhand experience needing to some firstirhand experience needing to some firstirhand experience needing to use these skills, but more existed use these skills, but more existed use these skills, but more existed before that. But I will say that going before that. But I will say that going before that. But I will say that going through that experience has has through that experience has has through that experience has has certainly given certainly increased my certainly given certainly increased my certainly given certainly increased my my empathy and my understanding for what my empathy and my understanding for what my empathy and my understanding for what people suffer with. We'll go into great people suffer with. We'll go into great people suffer with. We'll go into great detail on what exactly more is and again detail on what exactly more is and again detail on what exactly more is and again mindfulness oriented recovery mindfulness oriented recovery mindfulness oriented recovery enhancement. But just on a high level, enhancement. But just on a high level, enhancement. But just on a high level, what's the elevator pitch for more? what's the elevator pitch for more? what's the elevator pitch for more? >> Yeah, the elevator pitch is more is a >> Yeah, the elevator pitch is more is a >> Yeah, the elevator pitch is more is a breakthrough evidence-based mindbody breakthrough evidence-based mindbody breakthrough evidence-based mindbody therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and modern neuroscience that is designed to modern neuroscience that is designed to modern neuroscience that is designed to simultaneously address addictive habits, simultaneously address addictive habits, simultaneously address addictive habits, emotional distress, and physical pain. emotional distress, and physical pain. emotional distress, and physical pain. We talked about this a little bit before We talked about this a little bit before We talked about this a little bit before we started rolling here and I know we started rolling here and I know we started rolling here and I know you've talked about it at great length you've talked about it at great length you've talked about it at great length with the producer of this episode, with the producer of this episode, with the producer of this episode, Eleanor Vasili, but just to make it Eleanor Vasili, but just to make it Eleanor Vasili, but just to make it abundantly clear to the listener, you abundantly clear to the listener, you abundantly clear to the listener, you developed this to treat a very specific developed this to treat a very specific developed this to treat a very specific set of populations who are dealing with, set of populations who are dealing with, set of populations who are dealing with, you know, full-blown addiction, but the you know, full-blown addiction, but the you know, full-blown addiction, but the basic of the protocol and the practices basic of the protocol and the practices basic of the protocol and the practices within it can be applied to everyday within it can be applied to everyday within it can be applied to everyday addictions, everyday emotional distress, addictions, everyday emotional distress, addictions, everyday emotional distress, everyday physical pain. everyday physical pain. everyday physical pain. >> Yeah. I mean, I think we all or maybe >> Yeah. I mean, I think we all or maybe >> Yeah. I mean, I think we all or maybe not we all, but I think many of us not we all, but I think many of us not we all, but I think many of us struggle with addictive habits. It may struggle with addictive habits. It may struggle with addictive habits. It may not be a full-blown drug addiction. It not be a full-blown drug addiction. It not be a full-blown drug addiction. It It could be addiction to unhealthy food. It could be addiction to unhealthy food. It could be addiction to unhealthy food. It could be addiction to shopping. It It could be addiction to shopping. It It could be addiction to shopping. It could be internet addiction. It could be could be internet addiction. It could be could be internet addiction. It could be addiction to doom scrolling on your addiction to doom scrolling on your addiction to doom scrolling on your phone. Falling into addictive habits is phone. Falling into addictive habits is phone. Falling into addictive habits is is a basic property of the human mind. is a basic property of the human mind. is a basic property of the human mind. And certainly pain is ubiquitous. I And certainly pain is ubiquitous. I And certainly pain is ubiquitous. I think 50 million Americans experience think 50 million Americans experience think 50 million Americans experience high impact chronic pain each year. So high impact chronic pain each year. So high impact chronic pain each year. So that 50 million American adults. So that 50 million American adults. So that 50 million American adults. So that's about one in six. And then that's about one in six. And then that's about one in six. And then emotional pain is just part of being a emotional pain is just part of being a emotional pain is just part of being a human being. As you know, human being. As you know, human being. As you know, >> there are three parts of more. >> there are three parts of more. >> there are three parts of more. Mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. Mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. Mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. With your permission, I'd like to go With your permission, I'd like to go With your permission, I'd like to go deep on each of these. deep on each of these. deep on each of these. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Let's start with mindfulness. Many of >> Let's start with mindfulness. Many of >> Let's start with mindfulness. Many of the listeners to the show know what this the listeners to the show know what this the listeners to the show know what this means, but what do you mean by it means, but what do you mean by it means, but what do you mean by it specifically in this context? So specifically in this context? So specifically in this context? So mindfulness is the practice of mindfulness is the practice of mindfulness is the practice of cultivating awareness and acceptance of cultivating awareness and acceptance of cultivating awareness and acceptance of your present moment thoughts, emotions your present moment thoughts, emotions your present moment thoughts, emotions and body sensations and observing those and body sensations and observing those and body sensations and observing those experiences as if you were a witness, as experiences as if you were a witness, as experiences as if you were a witness, as if you were an objective observer. And if you were an objective observer. And if you were an objective observer. And in more we we cultivate mindfulness in more we we cultivate mindfulness in more we we cultivate mindfulness through the practice of mindfulness through the practice of mindfulness through the practice of mindfulness meditation. There are a number of meditation. There are a number of meditation. There are a number of different meditation practices in Moore, different meditation practices in Moore, different meditation practices in Moore, but the but they're all oriented around but the but they're all oriented around but the but they're all oriented around generating what I what is considered in generating what I what is considered in generating what I what is considered in the field to be meta awareness. the the field to be meta awareness. the the field to be meta awareness. the awareness of awareness which I think is awareness of awareness which I think is awareness of awareness which I think is really the the therapeutic heart of what really the the therapeutic heart of what really the the therapeutic heart of what mindfulness is all about. John Cabbid mindfulness is all about. John Cabbid mindfulness is all about. John Cabbid Zen, a pioneer in the space, often Zen, a pioneer in the space, often Zen, a pioneer in the space, often points out that we our name as a species points out that we our name as a species points out that we our name as a species is homo sapiens sapiens, the one who is homo sapiens sapiens, the one who is homo sapiens sapiens, the one who knows and knows he or she knows. And knows and knows he or she knows. And knows and knows he or she knows. And that second sapiens has atrophied over that second sapiens has atrophied over that second sapiens has atrophied over time because nobody bothers to point out time because nobody bothers to point out time because nobody bothers to point out to us that we have this kind of bonus to us that we have this kind of bonus to us that we have this kind of bonus level in the brain and mind that allows level in the brain and mind that allows level in the brain and mind that allows us to step out of the contents of us to step out of the contents of us to step out of the contents of consciousness and to view it all with consciousness and to view it all with consciousness and to view it all with some non-judgmental remove. And it's some non-judgmental remove. And it's some non-judgmental remove. And it's it's a massively good news when it when it's a massively good news when it when it's a massively good news when it when it is pointed out. I want to talk about it is pointed out. I want to talk about it is pointed out. I want to talk about the how of it like how we generate it the how of it like how we generate it the how of it like how we generate it and a little bit more about the and a little bit more about the and a little bit more about the mindfulness meditation practices that mindfulness meditation practices that mindfulness meditation practices that you in this protocol but just stepping you in this protocol but just stepping you in this protocol but just stepping back a little bit why is mindfulness back a little bit why is mindfulness back a little bit why is mindfulness helpful when dealing with things like helpful when dealing with things like helpful when dealing with things like everyday addictions to scrolling or everyday addictions to scrolling or everyday addictions to scrolling or gambling or eating or whatnot. Great gambling or eating or whatnot. Great gambling or eating or whatnot. Great question and actually answering that question and actually answering that question and actually answering that question led to the development of more question led to the development of more question led to the development of more it actually was really getting my mind it actually was really getting my mind it actually was really getting my mind around a revolutionary theory in my in around a revolutionary theory in my in around a revolutionary theory in my in sorry a revolutionary theory in in sorry a revolutionary theory in in sorry a revolutionary theory in in addiction the cognitive processing model addiction the cognitive processing model addiction the cognitive processing model of addiction which essentially states of addiction which essentially states of addiction which essentially states that addiction is an automatic habit and that addiction is an automatic habit and that addiction is an automatic habit and that we learn to become addicted in the that we learn to become addicted in the that we learn to become addicted in the same way we learn anything. When you you same way we learn anything. When you you same way we learn anything. When you you do a behavior and then that behavior is do a behavior and then that behavior is do a behavior and then that behavior is rewarded, behavior becomes reinforced. rewarded, behavior becomes reinforced. rewarded, behavior becomes reinforced. So it it makes it easier to do that So it it makes it easier to do that So it it makes it easier to do that behavior which then increases the reward behavior which then increases the reward behavior which then increases the reward and reinforcement which then strengthens and reinforcement which then strengthens and reinforcement which then strengthens the behavior and the behavior happens the behavior and the behavior happens the behavior and the behavior happens again and again and again easier and again and again and again easier and again and again and again easier and easier and eventually with enough easier and eventually with enough easier and eventually with enough repetitions it becomes this automatic repetitions it becomes this automatic repetitions it becomes this automatic habit where the behavior can occur habit where the behavior can occur habit where the behavior can occur outside of the conscious intention to outside of the conscious intention to outside of the conscious intention to engage in the behavior and outside of engage in the behavior and outside of engage in the behavior and outside of even conscious awareness that the even conscious awareness that the even conscious awareness that the behavior is happening. it becomes full behavior is happening. it becomes full behavior is happening. it becomes full autopilot. And I mean, I I don't know if autopilot. And I mean, I I don't know if autopilot. And I mean, I I don't know if you've had this experience. I certainly you've had this experience. I certainly you've had this experience. I certainly have. You know, walking around, all of a have. You know, walking around, all of a have. You know, walking around, all of a sudden, I find myself looking at my sudden, I find myself looking at my sudden, I find myself looking at my phone. I wasn't even intending to pull phone. I wasn't even intending to pull phone. I wasn't even intending to pull my phone out. And then I say to myself, my phone out. And then I say to myself, my phone out. And then I say to myself, man, I've been on my phone too much. You man, I've been on my phone too much. You man, I've been on my phone too much. You know, I'm I got too much time on my know, I'm I got too much time on my know, I'm I got too much time on my phone. Just stop doing this. And I put phone. Just stop doing this. And I put phone. Just stop doing this. And I put it in my pocket. And then I I walk it in my pocket. And then I I walk it in my pocket. And then I I walk another 10 ft. And then the next thing I another 10 ft. And then the next thing I another 10 ft. And then the next thing I know, I'm looking at my phone again. And know, I'm looking at my phone again. And know, I'm looking at my phone again. And I did I certainly didn't intend to do I did I certainly didn't intend to do I did I certainly didn't intend to do it. It was just an automatic habit. So it. It was just an automatic habit. So it. It was just an automatic habit. So if addictive behavior can become if addictive behavior can become if addictive behavior can become automatized, fully automatic, then it automatized, fully automatic, then it automatized, fully automatic, then it stands to reason that a practice, a stands to reason that a practice, a stands to reason that a practice, a skill set that is designed to increase skill set that is designed to increase skill set that is designed to increase awareness of automatic behavior would be awareness of automatic behavior would be awareness of automatic behavior would be really useful to to regulate it. And in really useful to to regulate it. And in really useful to to regulate it. And in fact, that's what mindfulness is all fact, that's what mindfulness is all fact, that's what mindfulness is all about. Mindfulness, you could think of about. Mindfulness, you could think of about. Mindfulness, you could think of mindfulness as a form of automatization, mindfulness as a form of automatization, mindfulness as a form of automatization, making the unconscious conscious. When making the unconscious conscious. When making the unconscious conscious. When you when you think about the basic you when you think about the basic you when you think about the basic practice of mindfulness, that's really practice of mindfulness, that's really practice of mindfulness, that's really what we're doing. So for example, take what we're doing. So for example, take what we're doing. So for example, take mindful breathing, which is a practice mindful breathing, which is a practice mindful breathing, which is a practice that shows up in all sorts of different that shows up in all sorts of different that shows up in all sorts of different meditative traditions and therapies. meditative traditions and therapies. meditative traditions and therapies. When we practice mindfulness on the When we practice mindfulness on the When we practice mindfulness on the breath, we focus our attention on the breath, we focus our attention on the breath, we focus our attention on the sensation of the breath moving into the sensation of the breath moving into the sensation of the breath moving into the nostrils as we breathe in. And you're nostrils as we breathe in. And you're nostrils as we breathe in. And you're noticing the the temperature of that noticing the the temperature of that noticing the the temperature of that air, you know, the warmth and the air, you know, the warmth and the air, you know, the warmth and the coolness of the air moving in and out of coolness of the air moving in and out of coolness of the air moving in and out of the nostrils. And then what happens, you the nostrils. And then what happens, you the nostrils. And then what happens, you know, most people, if you're like any know, most people, if you're like any know, most people, if you're like any any any normal human being, after 10 20 any any normal human being, after 10 20 any any normal human being, after 10 20 seconds, your mind starts to wander. It seconds, your mind starts to wander. It seconds, your mind starts to wander. It wanders off automatically to thoughts or wanders off automatically to thoughts or wanders off automatically to thoughts or feelings or memories. You're not feelings or memories. You're not feelings or memories. You're not choosing to make your mind wander. It choosing to make your mind wander. It choosing to make your mind wander. It just does it on its own. It's automatic. just does it on its own. It's automatic. just does it on its own. It's automatic. And so what do we do when we're And so what do we do when we're And so what do we do when we're practicing mindfulness? The first step practicing mindfulness? The first step practicing mindfulness? The first step is to become aware that the mind has is to become aware that the mind has is to become aware that the mind has wandered. And so that that moment of wandered. And so that that moment of wandered. And so that that moment of awareness of the automaticity of the awareness of the automaticity of the awareness of the automaticity of the mind wandering is a key moment of meta mind wandering is a key moment of meta mind wandering is a key moment of meta awareness. So when we notice that the awareness. So when we notice that the awareness. So when we notice that the mind wanders off, we don't get mad at mind wanders off, we don't get mad at mind wanders off, we don't get mad at ourselves. We don't beat ourselves up. ourselves. We don't beat ourselves up. ourselves. We don't beat ourselves up. We just notice where the mind has We just notice where the mind has We just notice where the mind has wandered off to. We acknowledge and wandered off to. We acknowledge and wandered off to. We acknowledge and accept that thought or feeling. Then we accept that thought or feeling. Then we accept that thought or feeling. Then we let it go and we bring our attention let it go and we bring our attention let it go and we bring our attention right back to the point of focus. Right right back to the point of focus. Right right back to the point of focus. Right back to the breath. So this basic back to the breath. So this basic back to the breath. So this basic practice and then it's rinse and repeat. practice and then it's rinse and repeat. practice and then it's rinse and repeat. Right? The mind wanders again. You Right? The mind wanders again. You Right? The mind wanders again. You notice that it wanders off. You notice that it wanders off. You notice that it wanders off. You acknowledge and accept. You let it go. acknowledge and accept. You let it go. acknowledge and accept. You let it go. You come back to the breath. So when You come back to the breath. So when You come back to the breath. So when you're doing this this loop of you're doing this this loop of you're doing this this loop of mindfulness as we call it and more, what mindfulness as we call it and more, what mindfulness as we call it and more, what you're really practicing is you're you're really practicing is you're you're really practicing is you're practicing the awareness of practicing the awareness of practicing the awareness of automaticity. becoming aware of when the automaticity. becoming aware of when the automaticity. becoming aware of when the mind is wandering off into autopilot and mind is wandering off into autopilot and mind is wandering off into autopilot and then grabbing a hold of it and bringing then grabbing a hold of it and bringing then grabbing a hold of it and bringing it back under conscious control. And so it back under conscious control. And so it back under conscious control. And so I think that basic skill, it's just one I think that basic skill, it's just one I think that basic skill, it's just one example, but that even that basic core example, but that even that basic core example, but that even that basic core skill of mindfulness has a lot of skill of mindfulness has a lot of skill of mindfulness has a lot of applicability to gaining awareness of applicability to gaining awareness of applicability to gaining awareness of unhealthy automatic habits that we all unhealthy automatic habits that we all unhealthy automatic habits that we all fall into and then gaining some control fall into and then gaining some control fall into and then gaining some control over them. over them. over them. >> Yeah. So you can hypothetically catch >> Yeah. So you can hypothetically catch >> Yeah. So you can hypothetically catch your zombie arm reaching into your your zombie arm reaching into your your zombie arm reaching into your pocket for your phone and not do it. pocket for your phone and not do it. pocket for your phone and not do it. What's interesting though is you as a What's interesting though is you as a What's interesting though is you as a longtime meditator are telling stories longtime meditator are telling stories longtime meditator are telling stories about how even to this day you find about how even to this day you find about how even to this day you find yourself on your phone and don't yourself on your phone and don't yourself on your phone and don't remember reaching for the phone. So this remember reaching for the phone. So this remember reaching for the phone. So this is not some sort of silver bullet. It is not some sort of silver bullet. It is not some sort of silver bullet. It just gives you a leg up. just gives you a leg up. just gives you a leg up. >> True. And yeah, I've got over 30 years >> True. And yeah, I've got over 30 years >> True. And yeah, I've got over 30 years of meditation practice experience under of meditation practice experience under of meditation practice experience under my belt, but I'm still pretty darn far my belt, but I'm still pretty darn far my belt, but I'm still pretty darn far from being the Buddha. Unfortunately, from being the Buddha. Unfortunately, from being the Buddha. Unfortunately, maybe I need to quit my day job and maybe I need to quit my day job and maybe I need to quit my day job and spend more time on the cushion. spend more time on the cushion. spend more time on the cushion. >> That thought has occurred to me, not >> That thought has occurred to me, not >> That thought has occurred to me, not about you, but about me. Logical about you, but about me. Logical about you, but about me. Logical question then is you know how how do you question then is you know how how do you question then is you know how how do you develop mindfulness? You just described develop mindfulness? You just described develop mindfulness? You just described the core tenants of practice. Focus on the core tenants of practice. Focus on the core tenants of practice. Focus on one thing usually or often the breath. one thing usually or often the breath. one thing usually or often the breath. Every time you get distracted, start Every time you get distracted, start Every time you get distracted, start again and then as you said, rinse and again and then as you said, rinse and again and then as you said, rinse and repeat. But there are other forms of repeat. But there are other forms of repeat. But there are other forms of mindfulness meditation that I believe mindfulness meditation that I believe mindfulness meditation that I believe you use in more which again many of our you use in more which again many of our you use in more which again many of our listeners will be familiar with. But listeners will be familiar with. But listeners will be familiar with. But body scans where you start from the top body scans where you start from the top body scans where you start from the top of the head and just feel the sensations of the head and just feel the sensations of the head and just feel the sensations systematically moving down from the systematically moving down from the systematically moving down from the tippy top of your head to your forehead tippy top of your head to your forehead tippy top of your head to your forehead and jaw etc etc. Oh yes, absolutely. And and jaw etc etc. Oh yes, absolutely. And and jaw etc etc. Oh yes, absolutely. And and those are sort of the the core basic and those are sort of the the core basic and those are sort of the the core basic techniques. Although I would add that in techniques. Although I would add that in techniques. Although I would add that in more there's always something a little more there's always something a little more there's always something a little more. So for example, even with the body more. So for example, even with the body more. So for example, even with the body scan for which which we're many of us scan for which which we're many of us scan for which which we're many of us are familiar with moving the attention are familiar with moving the attention are familiar with moving the attention through the body, sensing the sensations through the body, sensing the sensations through the body, sensing the sensations in each part of the body, we actually in each part of the body, we actually in each part of the body, we actually end that practice by pointing the person end that practice by pointing the person end that practice by pointing the person to become aware of the space around the to become aware of the space around the to become aware of the space around the body, the space enveloping the body and body, the space enveloping the body and body, the space enveloping the body and then to extend the focus of awareness then to extend the focus of awareness then to extend the focus of awareness successively further and further away successively further and further away successively further and further away from the body, further and further out from the body, further and further out from the body, further and further out into space and then as far out into into space and then as far out into into space and then as far out into space as they can conceive, even out and space as they can conceive, even out and space as they can conceive, even out and towards the center of the universe. and towards the center of the universe. and towards the center of the universe. and then we encourage the patient to rest then we encourage the patient to rest then we encourage the patient to rest awareness in that space. So that's awareness in that space. So that's awareness in that space. So that's that's one of the ways which we do that's one of the ways which we do that's one of the ways which we do things a little bit differently. things a little bit differently. things a little bit differently. Similarly, even in basic mindful Similarly, even in basic mindful Similarly, even in basic mindful breathing, our mindful breathing breathing, our mindful breathing breathing, our mindful breathing practice always ends towards pointing practice always ends towards pointing practice always ends towards pointing towards non-dual or self-trcendent towards non-dual or self-trcendent towards non-dual or self-trcendent states of awareness in which awareness states of awareness in which awareness states of awareness in which awareness and space are are one. And and then and space are are one. And and then and space are are one. And and then lastly, another little twist there is we lastly, another little twist there is we lastly, another little twist there is we we we because Moore is really oriented we we because Moore is really oriented we we because Moore is really oriented around savoring. So appreciating and around savoring. So appreciating and around savoring. So appreciating and relishing and basking in positive relishing and basking in positive relishing and basking in positive emotional experience. We guide our emotional experience. We guide our emotional experience. We guide our patients to to finish the practice by patients to to finish the practice by patients to to finish the practice by turning their attention towards any turning their attention towards any turning their attention towards any positive mental states that have arisen positive mental states that have arisen positive mental states that have arisen during practice and really to to take a during practice and really to to take a during practice and really to to take a moment to to immerse themselves in it moment to to immerse themselves in it moment to to immerse themselves in it and appreciate it and enjoy it. And and appreciate it and enjoy it. And and appreciate it and enjoy it. And that's really important with regard to that's really important with regard to that's really important with regard to helping to retrain the brain's reward helping to retrain the brain's reward helping to retrain the brain's reward system to help rewire the reward system system to help rewire the reward system system to help rewire the reward system and heal itself from the effects of and heal itself from the effects of and heal itself from the effects of addiction and pain. As I stated a while addiction and pain. As I stated a while addiction and pain. As I stated a while ago, the three parts of more are ago, the three parts of more are ago, the three parts of more are mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. You just mentioned savoring and we we You just mentioned savoring and we we You just mentioned savoring and we we will get to that because there's there's will get to that because there's there's will get to that because there's there's a lot to say there. But you said a lot to say there. But you said a lot to say there. But you said something else that I want to explore something else that I want to explore something else that I want to explore which is something about at the end of which is something about at the end of which is something about at the end of both a body scan and a mindful breathing both a body scan and a mindful breathing both a body scan and a mindful breathing you do recommend that people kind of you do recommend that people kind of you do recommend that people kind of broaden their awareness out in a way broaden their awareness out in a way broaden their awareness out in a way that leads to non-dual awareness and that leads to non-dual awareness and that leads to non-dual awareness and self-trcendence. Can you define those self-trcendence. Can you define those self-trcendence. Can you define those terms and then I think on top of that terms and then I think on top of that terms and then I think on top of that say a little bit about how it it's say a little bit about how it it's say a little bit about how it it's helpful? helpful? helpful? >> Yes, absolutely. So this has been a real >> Yes, absolutely. So this has been a real >> Yes, absolutely. So this has been a real focus of my entire pathway I would say focus of my entire pathway I would say focus of my entire pathway I would say leading me into this work and more leading me into this work and more leading me into this work and more recently in the past I would say seven recently in the past I would say seven recently in the past I would say seven years in in a more intense focus of my years in in a more intense focus of my years in in a more intense focus of my scientific work. Non-dual awareness is a scientific work. Non-dual awareness is a scientific work. Non-dual awareness is a term that is used in in a number of term that is used in in a number of term that is used in in a number of contemplative traditions and it's contemplative traditions and it's contemplative traditions and it's contrasted with dual awareness and dual contrasted with dual awareness and dual contrasted with dual awareness and dual awareness refers to our normative awareness refers to our normative awareness refers to our normative experience of being a subject observing experience of being a subject observing experience of being a subject observing an object. So there's myself and myself an object. So there's myself and myself an object. So there's myself and myself is encountering paying attention to is encountering paying attention to is encountering paying attention to objects in the world. And so that that's objects in the world. And so that that's objects in the world. And so that that's the duality of subject and object. And the duality of subject and object. And the duality of subject and object. And we typically go through life like this. we typically go through life like this. we typically go through life like this. We we feel like an isolated subject or We we feel like an isolated subject or We we feel like an isolated subject or self that's encapsulated by our skin and self that's encapsulated by our skin and self that's encapsulated by our skin and identified with our bodies and we're identified with our bodies and we're identified with our bodies and we're seeking out the objects of the world seeking out the objects of the world seeking out the objects of the world that we desire. But there can be moments that we desire. But there can be moments that we desire. But there can be moments when this norm normal subject object when this norm normal subject object when this norm normal subject object duality begins to fade and we feel this duality begins to fade and we feel this duality begins to fade and we feel this sense of closeness or interconnectedness sense of closeness or interconnectedness sense of closeness or interconnectedness or oneness with the world around us and or oneness with the world around us and or oneness with the world around us and in that moment the the separation in that moment the the separation in that moment the the separation between the subject and the object between the subject and the object between the subject and the object disappears and there is this non-dual disappears and there is this non-dual disappears and there is this non-dual awareness that arises and in the awareness that arises and in the awareness that arises and in the psychological literature this term the psychological literature this term the psychological literature this term the term for this is self-trcendence so term for this is self-trcendence so term for this is self-trcendence so going beyond the normal sense of self going beyond the normal sense of self going beyond the normal sense of self and I think an easy way for the listener and I think an easy way for the listener and I think an easy way for the listener to understand this is just the to understand this is just the to understand this is just the experience of connecting with something experience of connecting with something experience of connecting with something greater than the self. And there there greater than the self. And there there greater than the self. And there there many nuances to this, but I think that's many nuances to this, but I think that's many nuances to this, but I think that's that's an easy way to to understand it. that's an easy way to to understand it. that's an easy way to to understand it. And and you know, I think this And and you know, I think this And and you know, I think this experience is not as far away as many of experience is not as far away as many of experience is not as far away as many of us think it might be. So, have you ever, us think it might be. So, have you ever, us think it might be. So, have you ever, for example, have you ever been at the for example, have you ever been at the for example, have you ever been at the concert of one of your favorite bands concert of one of your favorite bands concert of one of your favorite bands and you just become so absorbed in the and you just become so absorbed in the and you just become so absorbed in the lights and the music and that you just lights and the music and that you just lights and the music and that you just lose yourself in it and you just feel lose yourself in it and you just feel lose yourself in it and you just feel filled with the thrilling bliss of the filled with the thrilling bliss of the filled with the thrilling bliss of the musical notes? Or maybe it's some people musical notes? Or maybe it's some people musical notes? Or maybe it's some people experience this in nature watching the experience this in nature watching the experience this in nature watching the let's let's say the beautiful sunset at let's let's say the beautiful sunset at let's let's say the beautiful sunset at the beach which I I live here. I'm the beach which I I live here. I'm the beach which I I live here. I'm fortunate enough to live here in fortunate enough to live here in fortunate enough to live here in California, Southern California. So California, Southern California. So California, Southern California. So gorgeous sunsets abound standing at the gorgeous sunsets abound standing at the gorgeous sunsets abound standing at the edge of the water looking out at the edge of the water looking out at the edge of the water looking out at the horizon feeling the expansiveness of horizon feeling the expansiveness of horizon feeling the expansiveness of space. The mind becomes extremely quiet space. The mind becomes extremely quiet space. The mind becomes extremely quiet and there's this sense of connectedness and there's this sense of connectedness and there's this sense of connectedness to all things. These experiences can to all things. These experiences can to all things. These experiences can happen on psychedelics like psilocybin happen on psychedelics like psilocybin happen on psychedelics like psilocybin and LSD and they certainly happen during and LSD and they certainly happen during and LSD and they certainly happen during meditation. And in fact, the original meditation. And in fact, the original meditation. And in fact, the original purpose, the original to to use a an purpose, the original to to use a an purpose, the original to to use a an egghehead word here, the original egghehead word here, the original egghehead word here, the original sotiological purpose of mindfulness in sotiological purpose of mindfulness in sotiological purpose of mindfulness in in traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism in traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism in traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism was not to regulate stress and it wasn't was not to regulate stress and it wasn't was not to regulate stress and it wasn't to strengthen your your attention. The to strengthen your your attention. The to strengthen your your attention. 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I think most people can understand I think most people can understand standing in nature looking at the Grand standing in nature looking at the Grand standing in nature looking at the Grand Canyon or whatever and feeling connected Canyon or whatever and feeling connected Canyon or whatever and feeling connected to something that's bigger than to something that's bigger than to something that's bigger than yourself. You could describe that as yourself. You could describe that as yourself. You could describe that as self-trcendence and also self-trcendence and also self-trcendence and also interconnection. Where I find people get interconnection. Where I find people get interconnection. Where I find people get confused and where even sometimes I get confused and where even sometimes I get confused and where even sometimes I get confused is the notion that the self confused is the notion that the self confused is the notion that the self itself is fundamentally an illusion. itself is fundamentally an illusion. itself is fundamentally an illusion. It's a tricky subject for sure. I don't It's a tricky subject for sure. I don't It's a tricky subject for sure. I don't know how you want me to respond to that know how you want me to respond to that know how you want me to respond to that but well I don't know concretely just but well I don't know concretely just but well I don't know concretely just experientially for example and we do experientially for example and we do experientially for example and we do this we do this in more when you close this we do this in more when you close this we do this in more when you close your eyes and you bring your attention your eyes and you bring your attention your eyes and you bring your attention to the sensation of your body resting in to the sensation of your body resting in to the sensation of your body resting in the chair and you become aware of the the chair and you become aware of the the chair and you become aware of the feeling of contact between your back and feeling of contact between your back and feeling of contact between your back and your legs and the cushion of the chair. your legs and the cushion of the chair. your legs and the cushion of the chair. It's curious to notice where does the It's curious to notice where does the It's curious to notice where does the feeling of the body end and the feeling feeling of the body end and the feeling feeling of the body end and the feeling of the world begin. Yeah. Because I mean of the world begin. Yeah. Because I mean of the world begin. Yeah. Because I mean can you really feel a difference? And can you really feel a difference? And can you really feel a difference? And then another practice and this is an then another practice and this is an then another practice and this is an ancient one. This isn't mine. I don't ancient one. This isn't mine. I don't ancient one. This isn't mine. I don't can't claim this one. Starting to tune can't claim this one. Starting to tune can't claim this one. Starting to tune attention towards is is the space inside attention towards is is the space inside attention towards is is the space inside the body and the space outside of the the body and the space outside of the the body and the space outside of the body one space or two spaces. And don't body one space or two spaces. And don't body one space or two spaces. And don't use your mind to answer that question, use your mind to answer that question, use your mind to answer that question, right? Don't try to just intellectually right? Don't try to just intellectually right? Don't try to just intellectually answer the question. Use the facts of answer the question. Use the facts of answer the question. Use the facts of your experience. What does it feel like? your experience. What does it feel like? your experience. What does it feel like? But I agree with you that that whole But I agree with you that that whole But I agree with you that that whole question of is the self an illusion? question of is the self an illusion? question of is the self an illusion? That's that's a thorny philosophical That's that's a thorny philosophical That's that's a thorny philosophical conversation. I don't know if we want to conversation. I don't know if we want to conversation. I don't know if we want to get into that. Let me steer it back to get into that. Let me steer it back to get into that. Let me steer it back to the very practical and concrete, which the very practical and concrete, which the very practical and concrete, which is how does self-trcendence, is how does self-trcendence, is how does self-trcendence, interdependence, non-dual awareness, all interdependence, non-dual awareness, all interdependence, non-dual awareness, all this stuff we've been talking about, this stuff we've been talking about, this stuff we've been talking about, yeah, yeah, yeah, >> managing my everyday addiction to my >> managing my everyday addiction to my >> managing my everyday addiction to my phone. phone. phone. >> Great question. That's a really good >> Great question. That's a really good >> Great question. That's a really good question. So, let me let me uh just question. So, let me let me uh just question. So, let me let me uh just frame this for you in the in more of the frame this for you in the in more of the frame this for you in the in more of the clinically severe case first and then clinically severe case first and then clinically severe case first and then bridge it into everyday experience if bridge it into everyday experience if bridge it into everyday experience if that's okay with you. So when you think that's okay with you. So when you think that's okay with you. So when you think about chronic pain, which again I said about chronic pain, which again I said about chronic pain, which again I said is as I said is really prevalent. is as I said is really prevalent. is as I said is really prevalent. There's more chronic pain than there is There's more chronic pain than there is There's more chronic pain than there is diabetes, heart disease, and cancer diabetes, heart disease, and cancer diabetes, heart disease, and cancer combined. So it's just a terribly combined. So it's just a terribly combined. So it's just a terribly prevalent condition among adults in this prevalent condition among adults in this prevalent condition among adults in this country. If you if you say to yourself country. If you if you say to yourself country. If you if you say to yourself in your head, I'm in pain enough times in your head, I'm in pain enough times in your head, I'm in pain enough times over and over again. That little over and over again. That little over and over again. That little preposition in gets dropped and I am in preposition in gets dropped and I am in preposition in gets dropped and I am in pain becomes I am pain. As your identity pain becomes I am pain. As your identity pain becomes I am pain. As your identity becomes fused with pain, it becomes the becomes fused with pain, it becomes the becomes fused with pain, it becomes the central part of who you are. You you you central part of who you are. You you you central part of who you are. You you you just become consumed by it. And the same just become consumed by it. And the same just become consumed by it. And the same kind of process happens in addiction. kind of process happens in addiction. kind of process happens in addiction. Repeated rumination on addiction related Repeated rumination on addiction related Repeated rumination on addiction related thoughts and cravings entrenched in the thoughts and cravings entrenched in the thoughts and cravings entrenched in the sense of self. Your identity becomes sense of self. Your identity becomes sense of self. Your identity becomes fused with addiction. The drug becomes fused with addiction. The drug becomes fused with addiction. The drug becomes the central point of meaning in life at the central point of meaning in life at the central point of meaning in life at the expense of the people, the the expense of the people, the the expense of the people, the activities, the values that you once activities, the values that you once activities, the values that you once cared about. And we know, we also know cared about. And we know, we also know cared about. And we know, we also know from neuroscience that both chronic pain from neuroscience that both chronic pain from neuroscience that both chronic pain and addiction involve disregulation in and addiction involve disregulation in and addiction involve disregulation in what's called the brain's default mode what's called the brain's default mode what's called the brain's default mode network. And the default mode network is network. And the default mode network is network. And the default mode network is is a circuitry of brain regions that's is a circuitry of brain regions that's is a circuitry of brain regions that's involved in creating the sense of self involved in creating the sense of self involved in creating the sense of self and in getting lost in thoughts about and in getting lost in thoughts about and in getting lost in thoughts about yourself and ruminating away from the yourself and ruminating away from the yourself and ruminating away from the present moment. So if we can achieve present moment. So if we can achieve present moment. So if we can achieve these self-trcendent experiences where these self-trcendent experiences where these self-trcendent experiences where the normal sense of self becomes the normal sense of self becomes the normal sense of self becomes quieter, then this may actually quieter, then this may actually quieter, then this may actually interrupt activity in the brain's interrupt activity in the brain's interrupt activity in the brain's default mode network and help help our default mode network and help help our default mode network and help help our our sense of who we are to not be so our sense of who we are to not be so our sense of who we are to not be so stuck in or fused with or identified stuck in or fused with or identified stuck in or fused with or identified with these forms of suffering and that with these forms of suffering and that with these forms of suffering and that gives us a window of opportunity to free gives us a window of opportunity to free gives us a window of opportunity to free oursel from the trap of pain and oursel from the trap of pain and oursel from the trap of pain and addiction. So that's that's the concept. addiction. So that's that's the concept. addiction. So that's that's the concept. Concretely, how does it affect our our Concretely, how does it affect our our Concretely, how does it affect our our everyday sorts of addictions? when we everyday sorts of addictions? when we everyday sorts of addictions? when we have tastes of self-trcendence. And I'm have tastes of self-trcendence. And I'm have tastes of self-trcendence. And I'm not claiming that we're going to have not claiming that we're going to have not claiming that we're going to have some, you know, knock you over the head, some, you know, knock you over the head, some, you know, knock you over the head, you know, bolt of lightning, the clouds you know, bolt of lightning, the clouds you know, bolt of lightning, the clouds open up and an angel comes down and, you open up and an angel comes down and, you open up and an angel comes down and, you know, bathes you in in in the golden know, bathes you in in in the golden know, bathes you in in in the golden light of enlightenment. But we might light of enlightenment. But we might light of enlightenment. But we might just have a little taste of this just have a little taste of this just have a little taste of this experience where we feel a little bit experience where we feel a little bit experience where we feel a little bit more connected to the world around us more connected to the world around us more connected to the world around us and we feel a little more expansive. And and we feel a little more expansive. And and we feel a little more expansive. And when we have when the mind touches these when we have when the mind touches these when we have when the mind touches these more self-trcendent places, they carry more self-trcendent places, they carry more self-trcendent places, they carry this inherent reward value. They have this inherent reward value. They have this inherent reward value. They have this tone of positivity, of this tone of positivity, of this tone of positivity, of peacefulness, of love, maybe even bliss. peacefulness, of love, maybe even bliss. peacefulness, of love, maybe even bliss. They these are moments in which we we They these are moments in which we we They these are moments in which we we really tap into our own inner wellspring really tap into our own inner wellspring really tap into our own inner wellspring of well-being. And so in these moments, of well-being. And so in these moments, of well-being. And so in these moments, we actually can make ourselves feel good we actually can make ourselves feel good we actually can make ourselves feel good naturally on our own. And if we can make naturally on our own. And if we can make naturally on our own. And if we can make ourselves feel good naturally on our ourselves feel good naturally on our ourselves feel good naturally on our own, then maybe we don't need to seek own, then maybe we don't need to seek own, then maybe we don't need to seek positive feelings outside of ourselves positive feelings outside of ourselves positive feelings outside of ourselves by engaging in in addictive behavior. My by engaging in in addictive behavior. My by engaging in in addictive behavior. My friend Jud Brewer, who's done a lot of friend Jud Brewer, who's done a lot of friend Jud Brewer, who's done a lot of work in the same area that you work in, work in the same area that you work in, work in the same area that you work in, I think he refers to this as the BBO, I think he refers to this as the BBO, I think he refers to this as the BBO, the bigger better offer. That if you can the bigger better offer. That if you can the bigger better offer. That if you can teach your brain that that it feels good teach your brain that that it feels good teach your brain that that it feels good to be aware or to be in a state of to be aware or to be in a state of to be aware or to be in a state of transcending the self, that maybe that's transcending the self, that maybe that's transcending the self, that maybe that's what you turn to in moments of distress what you turn to in moments of distress what you turn to in moments of distress rather than chocolate cake or strolling rather than chocolate cake or strolling rather than chocolate cake or strolling or rather than chocolate cake or or rather than chocolate cake or or rather than chocolate cake or scrolling. And I'm not saying that scrolling. And I'm not saying that scrolling. And I'm not saying that either of those are inherently evil, but either of those are inherently evil, but either of those are inherently evil, but it may be that the BBO is a better call. it may be that the BBO is a better call. it may be that the BBO is a better call. often. often. often. >> Yeah. And we have data that directly >> Yeah. And we have data that directly >> Yeah. And we have data that directly supports that. We have strong data that supports that. We have strong data that supports that. We have strong data that supports that. supports that. supports that. >> So under under mindfulness and again >> So under under mindfulness and again >> So under under mindfulness and again I'll just reset for people that we're I'll just reset for people that we're I'll just reset for people that we're talking about the mindfulness oriented talking about the mindfulness oriented talking about the mindfulness oriented recovery enhancement protocol that that recovery enhancement protocol that that recovery enhancement protocol that that Eric devised and it's got three parts. Eric devised and it's got three parts. Eric devised and it's got three parts. Mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. Mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. Mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. We're still talking about the We're still talking about the We're still talking about the mindfulness piece. Under the mindfulness mindfulness piece. Under the mindfulness mindfulness piece. Under the mindfulness piece, you have a kind of free range piece, you have a kind of free range piece, you have a kind of free range practice that we can do off the cushion, practice that we can do off the cushion, practice that we can do off the cushion, you know, in our everyday lives called you know, in our everyday lives called you know, in our everyday lives called stop. stop. stop. >> Yeah, absolutely. So stop is is a really >> Yeah, absolutely. So stop is is a really >> Yeah, absolutely. So stop is is a really simple practice. The first step is is to simple practice. The first step is is to simple practice. The first step is is to stop to stop right before you engage in stop to stop right before you engage in stop to stop right before you engage in the addictive habit. And instead of the addictive habit. And instead of the addictive habit. And instead of doing the thing that you felt compelled doing the thing that you felt compelled doing the thing that you felt compelled to do, second step is to just take a few to do, second step is to just take a few to do, second step is to just take a few mindful breaths. Doesn't have to be a mindful breaths. Doesn't have to be a mindful breaths. Doesn't have to be a long time. It could be 30 seconds. It long time. It could be 30 seconds. It long time. It could be 30 seconds. It could be a minute. It could be 3 could be a minute. It could be 3 could be a minute. It could be 3 minutes. Just enough time to focus on minutes. Just enough time to focus on minutes. Just enough time to focus on the sensation of the breath moving into the sensation of the breath moving into the sensation of the breath moving into the body to calm down the mind to calm the body to calm down the mind to calm the body to calm down the mind to calm down one's physiology. And then the next down one's physiology. And then the next down one's physiology. And then the next step is oh to observe your thoughts, step is oh to observe your thoughts, step is oh to observe your thoughts, your feelings, your body sensations in your feelings, your body sensations in your feelings, your body sensations in this moment in in the presence of of the this moment in in the presence of of the this moment in in the presence of of the the thing that you're craving. And what the thing that you're craving. And what the thing that you're craving. And what you'll begin to observe is that your you'll begin to observe is that your you'll begin to observe is that your attention keeps getting drawn to this attention keeps getting drawn to this attention keeps getting drawn to this behavior or this thing that you that you behavior or this thing that you that you behavior or this thing that you that you really want that you're craving that really want that you're craving that really want that you're craving that it's actually difficult to shift your it's actually difficult to shift your it's actually difficult to shift your attention away from it. And that helps attention away from it. And that helps attention away from it. And that helps you to gain insight into the fact that you to gain insight into the fact that you to gain insight into the fact that you are craving that you are slipping you are craving that you are slipping you are craving that you are slipping into this addictive habit. But another into this addictive habit. But another into this addictive habit. But another thing that you'll begin to observe as as thing that you'll begin to observe as as thing that you'll begin to observe as as you do this practice is that cravings you do this practice is that cravings you do this practice is that cravings don't last forever that they actually don't last forever that they actually don't last forever that they actually are impermanent that they change over are impermanent that they change over are impermanent that they change over time. And if at any point you get too time. And if at any point you get too time. And if at any point you get too overwhelmed in in the pro in the overwhelmed in in the pro in the overwhelmed in in the pro in the process, you can always return the focus process, you can always return the focus process, you can always return the focus of your attention back to the breath as of your attention back to the breath as of your attention back to the breath as a way to recenter the mind and to to get a way to recenter the mind and to to get a way to recenter the mind and to to get some relief from the distress in the some relief from the distress in the some relief from the distress in the body. And then the last step of of this body. And then the last step of of this body. And then the last step of of this stop process is to proceed with stop process is to proceed with stop process is to proceed with intention. So of course ultimately it's intention. So of course ultimately it's intention. So of course ultimately it's your choice whether or not you're going your choice whether or not you're going your choice whether or not you're going to engage in this in this behavior. to engage in this in this behavior. to engage in this in this behavior. You're going to consume the substance or You're going to consume the substance or You're going to consume the substance or or do the thing that you feel compelled or do the thing that you feel compelled or do the thing that you feel compelled to do. But if you choose to do it, then to do. But if you choose to do it, then to do. But if you choose to do it, then do it mindfully with full attention, do it mindfully with full attention, do it mindfully with full attention, giving the activity the respect and the giving the activity the respect and the giving the activity the respect and the awareness that it deserves. You know, awareness that it deserves. You know, awareness that it deserves. You know, maybe there are some negative maybe there are some negative maybe there are some negative consequences for engaging in this consequences for engaging in this consequences for engaging in this behavior. and if so, consciously behavior. and if so, consciously behavior. and if so, consciously contemplate those negative consequences. contemplate those negative consequences. contemplate those negative consequences. But what a lot of people discover is But what a lot of people discover is But what a lot of people discover is that by stopping and interrupting this that by stopping and interrupting this that by stopping and interrupting this automatic addictive habit and practicing automatic addictive habit and practicing automatic addictive habit and practicing a few moments of mindfulness instead, a few moments of mindfulness instead, a few moments of mindfulness instead, that that the desire to do it is that that the desire to do it is that that the desire to do it is starting to fade away. It's getting starting to fade away. It's getting starting to fade away. It's getting weaker over time. And and this this weaker over time. And and this this weaker over time. And and this this practice, this very simple practice is practice, this very simple practice is practice, this very simple practice is the jumping off point for lots of people the jumping off point for lots of people the jumping off point for lots of people in changing addictive behavior is more in changing addictive behavior is more in changing addictive behavior is more elaborate and intensive. That takes some elaborate and intensive. That takes some elaborate and intensive. That takes some some time to build into it. But this some time to build into it. But this some time to build into it. But this this this practice we teach people this this practice we teach people this this practice we teach people immediately in the more program. immediately in the more program. immediately in the more program. >> Well, if we have time, we'll come back >> Well, if we have time, we'll come back >> Well, if we have time, we'll come back to the full mindfulness of craving to the full mindfulness of craving to the full mindfulness of craving technique. But technique. But technique. But >> and you and hopefully we'll talk about >> and you and hopefully we'll talk about >> and you and hopefully we'll talk about mindfulness for pain, too. And that cuz mindfulness for pain, too. And that cuz mindfulness for pain, too. And that cuz that's a unique technique in more. that's a unique technique in more. that's a unique technique in more. >> Yeah. So, let's talk about mindfulness >> Yeah. So, let's talk about mindfulness >> Yeah. So, let's talk about mindfulness specifically for pain cuz you you've got specifically for pain cuz you you've got specifically for pain cuz you you've got a technique that is called zooming in a technique that is called zooming in a technique that is called zooming in and zooming out. and zooming out. and zooming out. >> Great. Do do you want me to give some >> Great. Do do you want me to give some >> Great. Do do you want me to give some context, you know, talking about Great. context, you know, talking about Great. context, you know, talking about Great. So, you know, so what is pain? I mean, So, you know, so what is pain? I mean, So, you know, so what is pain? I mean, pain is really your body's alarm system. pain is really your body's alarm system. pain is really your body's alarm system. So when you're injured, there are So when you're injured, there are So when you're injured, there are special nerve cells called noiceptors special nerve cells called noiceptors special nerve cells called noiceptors and they relay the signal of damage from and they relay the signal of damage from and they relay the signal of damage from the injury up the nerves up the spine the injury up the nerves up the spine the injury up the nerves up the spine and into a structure in the center of and into a structure in the center of and into a structure in the center of the brain called the phalamus. And the the brain called the phalamus. And the the brain called the phalamus. And the phalamus acts like a relay station and phalamus acts like a relay station and phalamus acts like a relay station and it sends that signal of damage out to it sends that signal of damage out to it sends that signal of damage out to the higher order thinking parts of the the higher order thinking parts of the the higher order thinking parts of the brain like the prefrontal cortex as well brain like the prefrontal cortex as well brain like the prefrontal cortex as well as the feeling parts of the brain like as the feeling parts of the brain like as the feeling parts of the brain like the amydala and the insula. And it's the amydala and the insula. And it's the amydala and the insula. And it's here in the thinking and feeling parts here in the thinking and feeling parts here in the thinking and feeling parts of the brain that the signal of damage of the brain that the signal of damage of the brain that the signal of damage is actually decoded into the conscious is actually decoded into the conscious is actually decoded into the conscious experience of pain. And so and and this experience of pain. And so and and this experience of pain. And so and and this is kind of crazy because these same is kind of crazy because these same is kind of crazy because these same higher order brain regions, they can higher order brain regions, they can higher order brain regions, they can actually act like a volume knob on your actually act like a volume knob on your actually act like a volume knob on your pain. So if you're feeling stressed or pain. So if you're feeling stressed or pain. So if you're feeling stressed or you're afraid or you're frustrated, that you're afraid or you're frustrated, that you're afraid or you're frustrated, that can crank the volume of your pain right can crank the volume of your pain right can crank the volume of your pain right up and make it hurt worse. That can up and make it hurt worse. That can up and make it hurt worse. That can actually turn the volume of the pain actually turn the volume of the pain actually turn the volume of the pain down. Given this neuroscientific model down. Given this neuroscientific model down. Given this neuroscientific model of pain, it's it's a truism that all of pain, it's it's a truism that all of pain, it's it's a truism that all pain is processed in the brain. It pain is processed in the brain. It pain is processed in the brain. It doesn't matter whether the pain is doesn't matter whether the pain is doesn't matter whether the pain is coming from arthritis in your knee or coming from arthritis in your knee or coming from arthritis in your knee or from a herniated disc or from irritable from a herniated disc or from irritable from a herniated disc or from irritable bowel syndrome or even a headache. Now bowel syndrome or even a headache. Now bowel syndrome or even a headache. Now that that doesn't mean that all pain is that that doesn't mean that all pain is that that doesn't mean that all pain is in your head because the brain is a part in your head because the brain is a part in your head because the brain is a part of your body. So if you can change the of your body. So if you can change the of your body. So if you can change the way your mind functions, you can change way your mind functions, you can change way your mind functions, you can change the way your brain functions and that'll the way your brain functions and that'll the way your brain functions and that'll change your experience of pain. And change your experience of pain. And change your experience of pain. And that's that's the heart of the more that's that's the heart of the more that's that's the heart of the more approach. So the way we do this is approach. So the way we do this is approach. So the way we do this is through mindfulness and and a specific through mindfulness and and a specific through mindfulness and and a specific mindfulness of pain technique. So the mindfulness of pain technique. So the mindfulness of pain technique. So the technique it it begins by mindful technique it it begins by mindful technique it it begins by mindful breathing as a way to calm down the mind breathing as a way to calm down the mind breathing as a way to calm down the mind to center our our focus and then we to center our our focus and then we to center our our focus and then we actually guide the patient to focus actually guide the patient to focus actually guide the patient to focus their attention on the sensations of their attention on the sensations of their attention on the sensations of pain themselves. So turn attention right pain themselves. So turn attention right pain themselves. So turn attention right into the heart of the sensation and to into the heart of the sensation and to into the heart of the sensation and to break down the experience of pain into break down the experience of pain into break down the experience of pain into into the subcomponent sensations that into the subcomponent sensations that into the subcomponent sensations that that make up pain. So rather than that make up pain. So rather than that make up pain. So rather than focusing on some terrible awful anguish, focusing on some terrible awful anguish, focusing on some terrible awful anguish, patients use mindfulness to zoom into patients use mindfulness to zoom into patients use mindfulness to zoom into the experience and to break it down into the experience and to break it down into the experience and to break it down into sensations of heat or tightness or sensations of heat or tightness or sensations of heat or tightness or tingling as well as to notice the spaces tingling as well as to notice the spaces tingling as well as to notice the spaces in between those sensations where in between those sensations where in between those sensations where there's either no sensation at all or there's either no sensation at all or there's either no sensation at all or potentially even pleasant sensations potentially even pleasant sensations potentially even pleasant sensations right next to the painful ones, which I right next to the painful ones, which I right next to the painful ones, which I know sounds pretty crazy, but a lot of know sounds pretty crazy, but a lot of know sounds pretty crazy, but a lot of times people start to notice that that times people start to notice that that times people start to notice that that when they really turn their attention when they really turn their attention when they really turn their attention towards the pain and break it down, they towards the pain and break it down, they towards the pain and break it down, they discover that it's not completely solid discover that it's not completely solid discover that it's not completely solid and in fact that the the experience of and in fact that the the experience of and in fact that the the experience of pain is is is more spacious than they pain is is is more spacious than they pain is is is more spacious than they thought it was. So they're focusing thought it was. So they're focusing thought it was. So they're focusing attention intensely on the sensation. attention intensely on the sensation. attention intensely on the sensation. They're zooming into it and breaking it They're zooming into it and breaking it They're zooming into it and breaking it down. And if at any point they become down. And if at any point they become down. And if at any point they become too overwhelmed with the sensation, then too overwhelmed with the sensation, then too overwhelmed with the sensation, then then we guide the person to turn their then we guide the person to turn their then we guide the person to turn their attention back to the sensation of their attention back to the sensation of their attention back to the sensation of their breath to calm down the mind, calm down breath to calm down the mind, calm down breath to calm down the mind, calm down the body, and then to imagine as if they the body, and then to imagine as if they the body, and then to imagine as if they could send the breath into that could send the breath into that could send the breath into that sensation of pain to soften it. And the sensation of pain to soften it. And the sensation of pain to soften it. And the metaphor we use is is like water seeping metaphor we use is is like water seeping metaphor we use is is like water seeping into the soil. So there's the zooming into the soil. So there's the zooming into the soil. So there's the zooming into pain, there's zooming out from into pain, there's zooming out from into pain, there's zooming out from pain, and toggling back and forth, the pain, and toggling back and forth, the pain, and toggling back and forth, the the person begins to notice that these the person begins to notice that these the person begins to notice that these sensations change over time. They're sensations change over time. They're sensations change over time. They're they're not permanent. And noticing that they're not permanent. And noticing that they're not permanent. And noticing that they're changing can can bring hope and they're changing can can bring hope and they're changing can can bring hope and and relief. And and this practice of and relief. And and this practice of and relief. And and this practice of using mindfulness to cultivate using mindfulness to cultivate using mindfulness to cultivate interosceptive awareness, the the interosceptive awareness, the the interosceptive awareness, the the awareness of the physiological condition awareness of the physiological condition awareness of the physiological condition of the body can get people out of their of the body can get people out of their of the body can get people out of their heads about their pain. And since a lot heads about their pain. And since a lot heads about their pain. And since a lot a lot of what's driving chronic pain is a lot of what's driving chronic pain is a lot of what's driving chronic pain is emotional anguish, turning up that emotional anguish, turning up that emotional anguish, turning up that volume knob of the pain, that by volume knob of the pain, that by volume knob of the pain, that by teaching people to actually get back out teaching people to actually get back out teaching people to actually get back out of their heads and into their bodies of their heads and into their bodies of their heads and into their bodies into the actual sensation, they discover into the actual sensation, they discover into the actual sensation, they discover that it's not as awful as they thought that it's not as awful as they thought that it's not as awful as they thought it was and maybe that they can cope with it was and maybe that they can cope with it was and maybe that they can cope with it successfully. And in fact, that's it successfully. And in fact, that's it successfully. And in fact, that's what we find in in we've conducted more what we find in in we've conducted more what we find in in we've conducted more than 16 randomized control trials of than 16 randomized control trials of than 16 randomized control trials of more funded by more than $90 million in more funded by more than $90 million in more funded by more than $90 million in federal research funding. So we have federal research funding. So we have federal research funding. So we have done a lot of research on this therapy done a lot of research on this therapy done a lot of research on this therapy and we we see very clearly that more and we we see very clearly that more and we we see very clearly that more cuts pain significantly. So it drops cuts pain significantly. So it drops cuts pain significantly. So it drops chronic pain by about 25% and that chronic pain by about 25% and that chronic pain by about 25% and that effect lasts 9 months after the end of effect lasts 9 months after the end of effect lasts 9 months after the end of this 8week program. But the acute this 8week program. But the acute this 8week program. But the acute practice of this mindful zooming in and practice of this mindful zooming in and practice of this mindful zooming in and zooming out meditation that can zooming out meditation that can zooming out meditation that can alleviate pain in the moment by about alleviate pain in the moment by about alleviate pain in the moment by about 30% on average. And that's about as much 30% on average. And that's about as much 30% on average. And that's about as much pain relief as you would expect from 5 pain relief as you would expect from 5 pain relief as you would expect from 5 milligs of oxycontton. And some people milligs of oxycontton. And some people milligs of oxycontton. And some people get a lot more pain relief than that. get a lot more pain relief than that. get a lot more pain relief than that. Some people can drop their pain to zero Some people can drop their pain to zero Some people can drop their pain to zero during the practice. during the practice. during the practice. >> Okay. So, let let's move to some of the >> Okay. So, let let's move to some of the >> Okay. So, let let's move to some of the other aspects of the Moore protocol. As other aspects of the Moore protocol. As other aspects of the Moore protocol. As I keep reminding listeners, there the I keep reminding listeners, there the I keep reminding listeners, there the three parts of mindfulness, reappraisal, three parts of mindfulness, reappraisal, three parts of mindfulness, reappraisal, and savoring. Let's talk about and savoring. Let's talk about and savoring. Let's talk about reappraisal. I'll start with an obvious reappraisal. I'll start with an obvious reappraisal. I'll start with an obvious question. What does that actually mean? question. What does that actually mean? question. What does that actually mean? Reappraisal. Reappraisal is the practice Reappraisal. Reappraisal is the practice Reappraisal. Reappraisal is the practice of challenging and changing negative of challenging and changing negative of challenging and changing negative thought patterns to reduce negative thought patterns to reduce negative thought patterns to reduce negative emotions and decrease self-destructive emotions and decrease self-destructive emotions and decrease self-destructive behavior. So reappraisal is is the behavior. So reappraisal is is the behavior. So reappraisal is is the cornerstone of cognitive behavioral cornerstone of cognitive behavioral cornerstone of cognitive behavioral therapy. It's also an ancient idea that therapy. It's also an ancient idea that therapy. It's also an ancient idea that was reflected even in the in the stoic was reflected even in the in the stoic was reflected even in the in the stoic philosophers of ancient Rome who said philosophers of ancient Rome who said philosophers of ancient Rome who said cool things like we are disturbed not by cool things like we are disturbed not by cool things like we are disturbed not by events but by the views which we take of events but by the views which we take of events but by the views which we take of those events. So it's this idea that if those events. So it's this idea that if those events. So it's this idea that if we can change the way we think about the we can change the way we think about the we can change the way we think about the the challenges in our life that this the challenges in our life that this the challenges in our life that this will have a powerful effect on how we will have a powerful effect on how we will have a powerful effect on how we respond to those challenges. And so when respond to those challenges. And so when respond to those challenges. And so when we so when we experience some sort of a we so when we experience some sort of a we so when we experience some sort of a stressor, our mind automatically and stressor, our mind automatically and stressor, our mind automatically and rapidly goes into this stress appraisal rapidly goes into this stress appraisal rapidly goes into this stress appraisal where we we we see this thing that's where we we we see this thing that's where we we we see this thing that's happening to us as a threat and we often happening to us as a threat and we often happening to us as a threat and we often times feel really overwhelmed by it, times feel really overwhelmed by it, times feel really overwhelmed by it, like we can't handle it. And these these like we can't handle it. And these these like we can't handle it. And these these computations happen super fast in the computations happen super fast in the computations happen super fast in the brain, you know, within the span of a brain, you know, within the span of a brain, you know, within the span of a couple seconds. And then the body starts couple seconds. And then the body starts couple seconds. And then the body starts getting stressed out. Then that's the getting stressed out. Then that's the getting stressed out. Then that's the whole fight orflight response that we're whole fight orflight response that we're whole fight orflight response that we're all we're all too familiar with. heart all we're all too familiar with. heart all we're all too familiar with. heart starts beating fast, muscles get tight, starts beating fast, muscles get tight, starts beating fast, muscles get tight, start sweating, stomach discomfort, your start sweating, stomach discomfort, your start sweating, stomach discomfort, your cortisol is is rising, and and you feel cortisol is is rising, and and you feel cortisol is is rising, and and you feel awful. And and if you have chronic pain, awful. And and if you have chronic pain, awful. And and if you have chronic pain, that actually magnifies the pain, makes that actually magnifies the pain, makes that actually magnifies the pain, makes the pain hurt worse. If you have if the pain hurt worse. If you have if the pain hurt worse. If you have if you've fallen into the habit of some you've fallen into the habit of some you've fallen into the habit of some sort of addictive behavior to relieve sort of addictive behavior to relieve sort of addictive behavior to relieve pain, and you're stressed out, that pain, and you're stressed out, that pain, and you're stressed out, that makes it more likely that that addictive makes it more likely that that addictive makes it more likely that that addictive behavior is going to come out. So that's behavior is going to come out. So that's behavior is going to come out. So that's the stress process. But so reappraisal the stress process. But so reappraisal the stress process. But so reappraisal is the the practice of becoming aware is the the practice of becoming aware is the the practice of becoming aware that this is happening and then using a that this is happening and then using a that this is happening and then using a few moments of mindfulness to to stop few moments of mindfulness to to stop few moments of mindfulness to to stop this this process to disrupt it and then this this process to disrupt it and then this this process to disrupt it and then to consciously challenge and change to consciously challenge and change to consciously challenge and change those negative thoughts into a more those negative thoughts into a more those negative thoughts into a more helpful way of viewing the situation. So helpful way of viewing the situation. So helpful way of viewing the situation. So for example asking yourself what's a for example asking yourself what's a for example asking yourself what's a more helpful way to see this situation? more helpful way to see this situation? more helpful way to see this situation? What's the proof that my thoughts about What's the proof that my thoughts about What's the proof that my thoughts about this situation are true? What's the this situation are true? What's the this situation are true? What's the proof that they're not true? Is there an proof that they're not true? Is there an proof that they're not true? Is there an alternative explanation to what's going alternative explanation to what's going alternative explanation to what's going on here? Is is is it all bad? What are on here? Is is is it all bad? What are on here? Is is is it all bad? What are the positive sides to the matter? And the positive sides to the matter? And the positive sides to the matter? And crucially asking asking yourself, how is crucially asking asking yourself, how is crucially asking asking yourself, how is facing this difficult life situation facing this difficult life situation facing this difficult life situation teaching me something or helping me to teaching me something or helping me to teaching me something or helping me to grow as a person? How is facing this grow as a person? How is facing this grow as a person? How is facing this adversity bringing a sense of meaning to adversity bringing a sense of meaning to adversity bringing a sense of meaning to my life? So, we guide the we guide the my life? So, we guide the we guide the my life? So, we guide the we guide the patient to actually consciously patient to actually consciously patient to actually consciously contemplate this alternative perspective contemplate this alternative perspective contemplate this alternative perspective to to reframe the challenge as an to to reframe the challenge as an to to reframe the challenge as an opportunity for personal growth. And opportunity for personal growth. And opportunity for personal growth. And that decreases negative emotions and that decreases negative emotions and that decreases negative emotions and cuts off the stress response. cuts off the stress response. cuts off the stress response. >> So there's evidence that beyond the >> So there's evidence that beyond the >> So there's evidence that beyond the anecdotal there's is there you know anecdotal there's is there you know anecdotal there's is there you know physiological evidence to show that physiological evidence to show that physiological evidence to show that reappraisal can help at the level of the reappraisal can help at the level of the reappraisal can help at the level of the brain or other parts of the body brain or other parts of the body brain or other parts of the body >> big time. So reappraisal broadly >> big time. So reappraisal broadly >> big time. So reappraisal broadly speaking reappraisal is one of the most speaking reappraisal is one of the most speaking reappraisal is one of the most extensively studied emotional regulatory extensively studied emotional regulatory extensively studied emotional regulatory processes in in all of neuroscience. So processes in in all of neuroscience. So processes in in all of neuroscience. So in general what we see is this increase in general what we see is this increase in general what we see is this increase in prefrontal cortical activity and as in prefrontal cortical activity and as in prefrontal cortical activity and as the prefrontal cortex becomes more the prefrontal cortex becomes more the prefrontal cortex becomes more active that dampens activity in in the active that dampens activity in in the active that dampens activity in in the emotional parts of the brain like the emotional parts of the brain like the emotional parts of the brain like the amydala. In my own research studying amydala. In my own research studying amydala. In my own research studying more we've shown that reappraisal more we've shown that reappraisal more we've shown that reappraisal training people in reappraisal through training people in reappraisal through training people in reappraisal through more that people can actually drop their more that people can actually drop their more that people can actually drop their skin conductance responses. So that's skin conductance responses. So that's skin conductance responses. So that's that's what people measure when they do that's what people measure when they do that's what people measure when they do the lie detector test. You're basically the lie detector test. You're basically the lie detector test. You're basically measuring sweat at the fingertip, which measuring sweat at the fingertip, which measuring sweat at the fingertip, which is a a very pure expression of is a a very pure expression of is a a very pure expression of sympathetic nervous system activity. sympathetic nervous system activity. sympathetic nervous system activity. That's the fight-or-flight response. So That's the fight-or-flight response. So That's the fight-or-flight response. So through reappraisal, patients are able through reappraisal, patients are able through reappraisal, patients are able to drop their stress arousal as measured to drop their stress arousal as measured to drop their stress arousal as measured by skin conductance responses. And by skin conductance responses. And by skin conductance responses. And reappraisal not only decreases their reappraisal not only decreases their reappraisal not only decreases their negative emotions, but actually can help negative emotions, but actually can help negative emotions, but actually can help with things like trauma, PTSD. So, in a with things like trauma, PTSD. So, in a with things like trauma, PTSD. So, in a moment of, you know, reliving a past moment of, you know, reliving a past moment of, you know, reliving a past trauma or experiencing a shame spiral trauma or experiencing a shame spiral trauma or experiencing a shame spiral over the fact that I did that thing over the fact that I did that thing over the fact that I did that thing again, I overeat or I had a little too again, I overeat or I had a little too again, I overeat or I had a little too much to drink or I spent, you know, 6 much to drink or I spent, you know, 6 much to drink or I spent, you know, 6 hours on the phone or in a moment of, hours on the phone or in a moment of, hours on the phone or in a moment of, oh, I'm starting to notice I've got a oh, I'm starting to notice I've got a oh, I'm starting to notice I've got a headache again and I'm catastrophizing headache again and I'm catastrophizing headache again and I'm catastrophizing about it. Reappraisal can be really about it. Reappraisal can be really about it. Reappraisal can be really helpful. That's when I'm hearing from helpful. That's when I'm hearing from helpful. That's when I'm hearing from you and that I just want to make sure if you and that I just want to make sure if you and that I just want to make sure if I'm restating that all correctly. How do I'm restating that all correctly. How do I'm restating that all correctly. How do we remember to do it and what the right we remember to do it and what the right we remember to do it and what the right questions are to ask ourselves in order questions are to ask ourselves in order questions are to ask ourselves in order to reappraise effectively? Great to reappraise effectively? Great to reappraise effectively? Great question and and yes, you you question and and yes, you you question and and yes, you you articulated really well in those moments articulated really well in those moments articulated really well in those moments when if we do slip into some sort of when if we do slip into some sort of when if we do slip into some sort of unhealthy habit or addictive behavior unhealthy habit or addictive behavior unhealthy habit or addictive behavior and we are we are feeling shame about it and we are we are feeling shame about it and we are we are feeling shame about it or like you said, we we experience some or like you said, we we experience some or like you said, we we experience some sort of pain and we start to get really sort of pain and we start to get really sort of pain and we start to get really upset about it. maybe start upset about it. maybe start upset about it. maybe start catastrophizing about it, thinking that catastrophizing about it, thinking that catastrophizing about it, thinking that that life is terrible because of this that life is terrible because of this that life is terrible because of this pain and that there's no way I can pain and that there's no way I can pain and that there's no way I can handle it. Reappraisal is really useful handle it. Reappraisal is really useful handle it. Reappraisal is really useful in those moments to stop yourself and to in those moments to stop yourself and to in those moments to stop yourself and to and to recognize your own inner coping and to recognize your own inner coping and to recognize your own inner coping resources and to reframe the negative resources and to reframe the negative resources and to reframe the negative thoughts to remind yourself that thoughts to remind yourself that thoughts to remind yourself that actually you do have the inner strength actually you do have the inner strength actually you do have the inner strength to deal with these challenges and that to deal with these challenges and that to deal with these challenges and that and that facing them is actually helping and that facing them is actually helping and that facing them is actually helping you to grow as a person. So, so how do you to grow as a person. So, so how do you to grow as a person. So, so how do you do it in those moments? Well, the you do it in those moments? Well, the you do it in those moments? Well, the first step the first step is actually to first step the first step is actually to first step the first step is actually to become mindfully aware that you are become mindfully aware that you are become mindfully aware that you are getting stressed out. So stress is getting stressed out. So stress is getting stressed out. So stress is actually the signal. Stress is the actually the signal. Stress is the actually the signal. Stress is the reminder. So when you're when you're reminder. So when you're when you're reminder. So when you're when you're starting to get worked up, you remember starting to get worked up, you remember starting to get worked up, you remember it's time to practice reappraisal. And it's time to practice reappraisal. And it's time to practice reappraisal. And then the next moment is the next step is then the next moment is the next step is then the next moment is the next step is to become aware of what are the negative to become aware of what are the negative to become aware of what are the negative thoughts that I'm having that are that thoughts that I'm having that are that thoughts that I'm having that are that are leading to me feeling stressed out. are leading to me feeling stressed out. are leading to me feeling stressed out. And then once you're aware of those And then once you're aware of those And then once you're aware of those negative thoughts, you can become aware negative thoughts, you can become aware negative thoughts, you can become aware of what what is the impact of those of what what is the impact of those of what what is the impact of those thoughts on your emotional state? How is thoughts on your emotional state? How is thoughts on your emotional state? How is it affecting my body? And then you stop it affecting my body? And then you stop it affecting my body? And then you stop and you practice a minute or two of and you practice a minute or two of and you practice a minute or two of mindfulness. Just enough to calm down mindfulness. Just enough to calm down mindfulness. Just enough to calm down the mind. Just enough to calm down the the mind. Just enough to calm down the the mind. Just enough to calm down the body. And then you moved to dispute or body. And then you moved to dispute or body. And then you moved to dispute or to challenge those negative thoughts by to challenge those negative thoughts by to challenge those negative thoughts by asking yourself questions like, "What's asking yourself questions like, "What's asking yourself questions like, "What's a more helpful way of viewing this a more helpful way of viewing this a more helpful way of viewing this situation? Is there an alternative situation? Is there an alternative situation? Is there an alternative explanation? If I had a friend in this explanation? If I had a friend in this explanation? If I had a friend in this situation, what would I want them to situation, what would I want them to situation, what would I want them to believe about it?" If I had a trusted believe about it?" If I had a trusted believe about it?" If I had a trusted teacher or or spiritual guide, what teacher or or spiritual guide, what teacher or or spiritual guide, what would what would they want me to to would what would they want me to to would what would they want me to to think about this situation? Is there a think about this situation? Is there a think about this situation? Is there a blessing in disguise here? Maybe there's blessing in disguise here? Maybe there's blessing in disguise here? Maybe there's something good about the situation that something good about the situation that something good about the situation that I'm overlooking. And how is facing the I'm overlooking. And how is facing the I'm overlooking. And how is facing the situation helping me to grow as a situation helping me to grow as a situation helping me to grow as a person? How is it teaching me something person? How is it teaching me something person? How is it teaching me something important? How is facing this adversity important? How is facing this adversity important? How is facing this adversity bringing a sense of meaning to my life? bringing a sense of meaning to my life? bringing a sense of meaning to my life? So that's that's the that's the the So that's that's the that's the the So that's that's the that's the the practice. And we have an acronym for it. practice. And we have an acronym for it. practice. And we have an acronym for it. That's ABC. It's not our acronym. It's That's ABC. It's not our acronym. It's That's ABC. It's not our acronym. It's it's a it's a classic acronym used in it's a it's a classic acronym used in it's a it's a classic acronym used in cognitive behavioral therapy. So A cognitive behavioral therapy. So A cognitive behavioral therapy. So A stands for the activating event. So stands for the activating event. So stands for the activating event. So that's the event that happened that led that's the event that happened that led that's the event that happened that led to you feeling stressed out. And then B. to you feeling stressed out. And then B. to you feeling stressed out. And then B. B is your beliefs or negative thoughts B is your beliefs or negative thoughts B is your beliefs or negative thoughts about the event that led you to feel about the event that led you to feel about the event that led you to feel stressed out. C are the emotional and stressed out. C are the emotional and stressed out. C are the emotional and behavioral consequences of those behavioral consequences of those behavioral consequences of those negative thoughts. D is dispute or negative thoughts. D is dispute or negative thoughts. D is dispute or challenge the negative thoughts. So challenge the negative thoughts. So challenge the negative thoughts. So reframe them. Think about the situation reframe them. Think about the situation reframe them. Think about the situation from a more helpful helpful perspective. from a more helpful helpful perspective. from a more helpful helpful perspective. And then the last step in the process is And then the last step in the process is And then the last step in the process is E, which is to evaluate what is the E, which is to evaluate what is the E, which is to evaluate what is the effect now of this reappraisal. Now that effect now of this reappraisal. Now that effect now of this reappraisal. Now that I'm thinking about this situation from a I'm thinking about this situation from a I'm thinking about this situation from a more helpful perspective, how is it more helpful perspective, how is it more helpful perspective, how is it impacting my emotions and and how can it impacting my emotions and and how can it impacting my emotions and and how can it help me to respond in terms of take take help me to respond in terms of take take help me to respond in terms of take take taking more constructive action? taking more constructive action? taking more constructive action? >> I love this. The problem isn't the >> I love this. The problem isn't the >> I love this. The problem isn't the problem, it's your view of the problem problem, it's your view of the problem problem, it's your view of the problem and we can shift our view. That's just and we can shift our view. That's just and we can shift our view. That's just enormously empowering. is is a classic enormously empowering. is is a classic enormously empowering. is is a classic approach in cognitive therapy. But in approach in cognitive therapy. But in approach in cognitive therapy. But in more, we inject a little bit of more, we inject a little bit of more, we inject a little bit of mindfulness into this into this process mindfulness into this into this process mindfulness into this into this process because as as one of my good friends and because as as one of my good friends and because as as one of my good friends and colleagues, Philipe Guldan said, colleagues, Philipe Guldan said, colleagues, Philipe Guldan said, mindfulness is the WD40 of the mind. mindfulness is the WD40 of the mind. mindfulness is the WD40 of the mind. >> It just helps to lube things up. It >> It just helps to lube things up. It >> It just helps to lube things up. It increases psychological flexibility and increases psychological flexibility and increases psychological flexibility and perspective taking. And so injecting a perspective taking. And so injecting a perspective taking. And so injecting a little mindfulness into this process can little mindfulness into this process can little mindfulness into this process can help us to to reframe our negative views help us to to reframe our negative views help us to to reframe our negative views of the situation and and take a broader of the situation and and take a broader of the situation and and take a broader perspective. The best B2B marketing perspective. The best B2B marketing perspective. The best B2B marketing often gets wasted on the wrong people. I often gets wasted on the wrong people. I often gets wasted on the wrong people. 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Get more with something amazing. Get more with something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregistered northwestregistered northwestregistered agent.com/happierfree. >> Okay, let's get to the third area of >> Okay, let's get to the third area of more and that is savoring. more and that is savoring. more and that is savoring. >> Great question. So, let me I'll provide >> Great question. So, let me I'll provide >> Great question. So, let me I'll provide some context and then and then tell you some context and then and then tell you some context and then and then tell you about the savoring technique itself. So, about the savoring technique itself. So, about the savoring technique itself. So, for many people addictive behaviors, for many people addictive behaviors, for many people addictive behaviors, they start as an attempt to escape some they start as an attempt to escape some they start as an attempt to escape some kind of pain. pain. It could be physical kind of pain. pain. It could be physical kind of pain. pain. It could be physical pain. It could be an emotional pain like pain. It could be an emotional pain like pain. It could be an emotional pain like stress or or anxiety or or sadness. But stress or or anxiety or or sadness. But stress or or anxiety or or sadness. But when the person engages in the addictive when the person engages in the addictive when the person engages in the addictive behavior like taking a drug for example, behavior like taking a drug for example, behavior like taking a drug for example, then the brain learns that shortcut then the brain learns that shortcut then the brain learns that shortcut really fast. And so over time the reward really fast. And so over time the reward really fast. And so over time the reward system gets rewired. The brain becomes system gets rewired. The brain becomes system gets rewired. The brain becomes hyper sensitive to stress and pain and hyper sensitive to stress and pain and hyper sensitive to stress and pain and drugrelated cues. But the brain also drugrelated cues. But the brain also drugrelated cues. But the brain also becomes less sensitive to the simple becomes less sensitive to the simple becomes less sensitive to the simple health healthy pleasures in everyday health healthy pleasures in everyday health healthy pleasures in everyday life. So the person starts to feel empty life. So the person starts to feel empty life. So the person starts to feel empty inside. And how do they fill that inside. And how do they fill that inside. And how do they fill that emptiness? How do they fill the hole? emptiness? How do they fill the hole? emptiness? How do they fill the hole? They just take higher and higher doses They just take higher and higher doses They just take higher and higher doses of the drug to feel normal. They do more of the drug to feel normal. They do more of the drug to feel normal. They do more and more of the addictive behavior to and more of the addictive behavior to and more of the addictive behavior to feel normal. But that just digs the hole feel normal. But that just digs the hole feel normal. But that just digs the hole even deeper, right? That's that's the even deeper, right? That's that's the even deeper, right? That's that's the vicious cycle and and the downward vicious cycle and and the downward vicious cycle and and the downward spiral of addictive behavior. But what spiral of addictive behavior. But what spiral of addictive behavior. But what we see in more is that the cycle can be we see in more is that the cycle can be we see in more is that the cycle can be reversed. that by teaching people how to reversed. that by teaching people how to reversed. that by teaching people how to use mindfulness to savor natural healthy use mindfulness to savor natural healthy use mindfulness to savor natural healthy pleasure, then we help the brain regain pleasure, then we help the brain regain pleasure, then we help the brain regain its sensitivity to these to these its sensitivity to these to these its sensitivity to these to these natural healthy rewards. And as this natural healthy rewards. And as this natural healthy rewards. And as this capacity to feel healthy pleasure comes capacity to feel healthy pleasure comes capacity to feel healthy pleasure comes back online, that then weakens the pull back online, that then weakens the pull back online, that then weakens the pull of the drug and reduces craving and of the drug and reduces craving and of the drug and reduces craving and addictive behavior. And we've shown this addictive behavior. And we've shown this addictive behavior. And we've shown this many times over in in multiple rigorous many times over in in multiple rigorous many times over in in multiple rigorous studies. So savoring is really the key studies. So savoring is really the key studies. So savoring is really the key to this whole process of helping people to this whole process of helping people to this whole process of helping people to reclaim this basic inherent sense of to reclaim this basic inherent sense of to reclaim this basic inherent sense of joy and healthy pleasure and meaning in joy and healthy pleasure and meaning in joy and healthy pleasure and meaning in life. And the way it works is savoring life. And the way it works is savoring life. And the way it works is savoring is really the practice of focusing is really the practice of focusing is really the practice of focusing mindful attention on a pleasant or mindful attention on a pleasant or mindful attention on a pleasant or positive everyday event. So turning positive everyday event. So turning positive everyday event. So turning attention towards the pleasant sensory attention towards the pleasant sensory attention towards the pleasant sensory features of that object or event. So the features of that object or event. So the features of that object or event. So the beautiful colors, the pleasant sounds, beautiful colors, the pleasant sounds, beautiful colors, the pleasant sounds, the enjoyable sense and and the pleasure the enjoyable sense and and the pleasure the enjoyable sense and and the pleasure you get from the sense of touch touching you get from the sense of touch touching you get from the sense of touch touching the object of your body moving through the object of your body moving through the object of your body moving through space. All of these kind of sensory space. All of these kind of sensory space. All of these kind of sensory portals can can provide pleasant and portals can can provide pleasant and portals can can provide pleasant and enjoyable and good about the experience. enjoyable and good about the experience. enjoyable and good about the experience. But then the key part of savoring and But then the key part of savoring and But then the key part of savoring and this is the real subtle part is that this is the real subtle part is that this is the real subtle part is that when you start to savor something when you start to savor something when you start to savor something enjoyable, positive emotions arise in enjoyable, positive emotions arise in enjoyable, positive emotions arise in your mind and pleasurable sensations your mind and pleasurable sensations your mind and pleasurable sensations arise in your body. And when those arise in your body. And when those arise in your body. And when those positive feelings come up, we guide the positive feelings come up, we guide the positive feelings come up, we guide the person to turn their attention inward person to turn their attention inward person to turn their attention inward and to savor the positive inner feeling and to savor the positive inner feeling and to savor the positive inner feeling like water seeping into the soil. So like water seeping into the soil. So like water seeping into the soil. So just turning attention into the positive just turning attention into the positive just turning attention into the positive inner experience and focusing inner experience and focusing inner experience and focusing mindfulness on that positive feeling and mindfulness on that positive feeling and mindfulness on that positive feeling and becoming deeply immersed in it. Sort of becoming deeply immersed in it. Sort of becoming deeply immersed in it. Sort of soaking and bathing in that positive soaking and bathing in that positive soaking and bathing in that positive inner feeling and allowing it to pervade inner feeling and allowing it to pervade inner feeling and allowing it to pervade the entire space of their mind and their the entire space of their mind and their the entire space of their mind and their body. and and that practice is is I body. and and that practice is is I body. and and that practice is is I think really important when it comes to think really important when it comes to think really important when it comes to people who are struggling with addictive people who are struggling with addictive people who are struggling with addictive habits with with chronic physical pain habits with with chronic physical pain habits with with chronic physical pain and also suffering from emotional pain and also suffering from emotional pain and also suffering from emotional pain like depression or PTSD because in all like depression or PTSD because in all like depression or PTSD because in all of those conditions what happens in the of those conditions what happens in the of those conditions what happens in the brain is that the brain becomes less brain is that the brain becomes less brain is that the brain becomes less sensitive to natural healthy pleasure sensitive to natural healthy pleasure sensitive to natural healthy pleasure and so what we're really doing I think and so what we're really doing I think and so what we're really doing I think is through savoring it's it's retraining is through savoring it's it's retraining is through savoring it's it's retraining the brain's capacity to reexperience the brain's capacity to reexperience the brain's capacity to reexperience natural healthy pleasure and joy it's natural healthy pleasure and joy it's natural healthy pleasure and joy it's it's sort of like weightlifting for your it's sort of like weightlifting for your it's sort of like weightlifting for your brain's reward board system. brain's reward board system. brain's reward board system. >> You said a little bit of this, but I >> You said a little bit of this, but I >> You said a little bit of this, but I think it's worth re-emphasizing. How can think it's worth re-emphasizing. How can think it's worth re-emphasizing. How can we integrate this practice into our our we integrate this practice into our our we integrate this practice into our our day wherever we're at, whether we've day wherever we're at, whether we've day wherever we're at, whether we've got, you know, significant chronic pain got, you know, significant chronic pain got, you know, significant chronic pain or just everyday aches and pains or or just everyday aches and pains or or just everyday aches and pains or significant addiction or just everyday significant addiction or just everyday significant addiction or just everyday addiction. I think this is useful for addiction. I think this is useful for addiction. I think this is useful for everybody, myself included. So, can you everybody, myself included. So, can you everybody, myself included. So, can you just help us think about where and when just help us think about where and when just help us think about where and when and how to fit it into our day? and how to fit it into our day? and how to fit it into our day? >> Absolutely. You know, fortunately, >> Absolutely. You know, fortunately, >> Absolutely. You know, fortunately, savoring is like this little secret that savoring is like this little secret that savoring is like this little secret that you can keep in your pocket and and whip you can keep in your pocket and and whip you can keep in your pocket and and whip it at it anytime anytime that there is it at it anytime anytime that there is it at it anytime anytime that there is the opportunity. So, for example, you the opportunity. So, for example, you the opportunity. So, for example, you you know, you've been inside working all you know, you've been inside working all you know, you've been inside working all day and you it's your first moment to day and you it's your first moment to day and you it's your first moment to step outside and maybe not if you're in step outside and maybe not if you're in step outside and maybe not if you're in the middle of this winter storm in the the middle of this winter storm in the the middle of this winter storm in the Northeast. But if you're if it's a nice Northeast. But if you're if it's a nice Northeast. But if you're if it's a nice day outside, you step outside and you day outside, you step outside and you day outside, you step outside and you and you open up the door, you feel the and you open up the door, you feel the and you open up the door, you feel the warmth of the sun on your face and you warmth of the sun on your face and you warmth of the sun on your face and you feel the or you feel the coolness of the feel the or you feel the coolness of the feel the or you feel the coolness of the breeze and you just stop in that moment breeze and you just stop in that moment breeze and you just stop in that moment and instead of rushing to your car or and instead of rushing to your car or and instead of rushing to your car or instead of picking up your phone and and instead of picking up your phone and and instead of picking up your phone and and doom scrolling, you take a moment to doom scrolling, you take a moment to doom scrolling, you take a moment to actually focus on the sensation of the actually focus on the sensation of the actually focus on the sensation of the warmth of the sun on your skin or the warmth of the sun on your skin or the warmth of the sun on your skin or the coolness of the breeze. And when you coolness of the breeze. And when you coolness of the breeze. And when you notice that that sensation, you you notice that that sensation, you you notice that that sensation, you you become aware of the pleasure seeping become aware of the pleasure seeping become aware of the pleasure seeping into seeping into your mind, seeping into seeping into your mind, seeping into seeping into your mind, seeping into your body. And you take a moment to into your body. And you take a moment to into your body. And you take a moment to bask in it and focusing attention deeply bask in it and focusing attention deeply bask in it and focusing attention deeply on the pleasurable feelings and and on the pleasurable feelings and and on the pleasurable feelings and and imagine as if you could breathe them imagine as if you could breathe them imagine as if you could breathe them breathe those positive feelings into the breathe those positive feelings into the breathe those positive feelings into the center of your being. So just take it center of your being. So just take it center of your being. So just take it in. It doesn't have to be long. It could in. It doesn't have to be long. It could in. It doesn't have to be long. It could be it could be 20 seconds. It could be a be it could be 20 seconds. It could be a be it could be 20 seconds. It could be a minute. And then you you move on to the minute. And then you you move on to the minute. And then you you move on to the next thing. So that that's that's one next thing. So that that's that's one next thing. So that that's that's one example. Maybe it's maybe you're example. Maybe it's maybe you're example. Maybe it's maybe you're watching your kid play in the backyard watching your kid play in the backyard watching your kid play in the backyard and play with their friends and and you and play with their friends and and you and play with their friends and and you you see the smile on your child's face you see the smile on your child's face you see the smile on your child's face and the sparkle in their eyes and and the sparkle in their eyes and and the sparkle in their eyes and instead of just rushing rushing around instead of just rushing rushing around instead of just rushing rushing around to do the do the next chore on your list to do the do the next chore on your list to do the do the next chore on your list or getting lost in your social media or getting lost in your social media or getting lost in your social media feed, you stop and you actually focus feed, you stop and you actually focus feed, you stop and you actually focus your attention on your kid's smile and your attention on your kid's smile and your attention on your kid's smile and you notice the sparkling in their eyes you notice the sparkling in their eyes you notice the sparkling in their eyes and you listen to their laughter. And and you listen to their laughter. And and you listen to their laughter. And when you do that, maybe you'll notice a when you do that, maybe you'll notice a when you do that, maybe you'll notice a slight feeling of of your own joy and slight feeling of of your own joy and slight feeling of of your own joy and happiness. And then you turn your happiness. And then you turn your happiness. And then you turn your attention inward and you savor that attention inward and you savor that attention inward and you savor that positive inner feeling and just breathe positive inner feeling and just breathe positive inner feeling and just breathe it into the center of your being and it into the center of your being and it into the center of your being and allow it to linger and expand. So, I allow it to linger and expand. So, I allow it to linger and expand. So, I think there's there's just tons of think there's there's just tons of think there's there's just tons of moments like this all throughout life moments like this all throughout life moments like this all throughout life that we we often times miss cuz we're that we we often times miss cuz we're that we we often times miss cuz we're just we're just rushing around on our just we're just rushing around on our just we're just rushing around on our to-do list, you know, do this, do this, to-do list, you know, do this, do this, to-do list, you know, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this, and do this, do this, do this, do this, and do this, do this, do this, do this, and that. And when do we actually stop to that. And when do we actually stop to that. And when do we actually stop to smell the roses? But I have really good smell the roses? But I have really good smell the roses? But I have really good hard clinical data and neuroscience data hard clinical data and neuroscience data hard clinical data and neuroscience data showing that if you actually stop and showing that if you actually stop and showing that if you actually stop and smell the roses, it has healing power. smell the roses, it has healing power. smell the roses, it has healing power. It it relieves addictive cravings and it It it relieves addictive cravings and it It it relieves addictive cravings and it can reduce physical pain. can reduce physical pain. can reduce physical pain. >> I can imagine you could do this while >> I can imagine you could do this while >> I can imagine you could do this while eating. You could do it while in eating. You could do it while in eating. You could do it while in conversation while eating or just in any conversation while eating or just in any conversation while eating or just in any kind of conversation where anything nice kind of conversation where anything nice kind of conversation where anything nice or pleasing or pleasant happens. or pleasing or pleasant happens. or pleasing or pleasant happens. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the Buddha observed that life is suffering. Buddha observed that life is suffering. Buddha observed that life is suffering. There's there's suffering inherent in There's there's suffering inherent in There's there's suffering inherent in life, but there's also beauty and joy life, but there's also beauty and joy life, but there's also beauty and joy inherent in life and they they arise. inherent in life and they they arise. inherent in life and they they arise. They they exist together. And why do we They they exist together. And why do we They they exist together. And why do we give the stress and the suffering and give the stress and the suffering and give the stress and the suffering and the pain all the air, all the attention? the pain all the air, all the attention? the pain all the air, all the attention? And I can answer that question for you And I can answer that question for you And I can answer that question for you because that that that's a biological because that that that's a biological because that that that's a biological imperative. Our brains have evolved over imperative. Our brains have evolved over imperative. Our brains have evolved over millennia to detect threat because our millennia to detect threat because our millennia to detect threat because our ancestors had to get good at detecting ancestors had to get good at detecting ancestors had to get good at detecting threat and focusing on pain in order to threat and focusing on pain in order to threat and focusing on pain in order to keep themselves safe to avoid keep themselves safe to avoid keep themselves safe to avoid destruction. So detecting threat is a destruction. So detecting threat is a destruction. So detecting threat is a really good survival adaptation. But if really good survival adaptation. But if really good survival adaptation. But if all you pay attention to in life is all you pay attention to in life is all you pay attention to in life is stress and pain, what kind of quality of stress and pain, what kind of quality of stress and pain, what kind of quality of life do you have? Your life is feels life do you have? Your life is feels life do you have? Your life is feels pretty bad. But we can use mindful pretty bad. But we can use mindful pretty bad. But we can use mindful savoring to expand the scope of our savoring to expand the scope of our savoring to expand the scope of our awareness and to start to notice some of awareness and to start to notice some of awareness and to start to notice some of the other parts of our life that are not the other parts of our life that are not the other parts of our life that are not painful, that are neutral or maybe even painful, that are neutral or maybe even painful, that are neutral or maybe even good in spite of pain or maybe even good in spite of pain or maybe even good in spite of pain or maybe even because of the pain in life. And when we because of the pain in life. And when we because of the pain in life. And when we turn our attention towards those parts turn our attention towards those parts turn our attention towards those parts of life and we our scope of attention is of life and we our scope of attention is of life and we our scope of attention is broader so that we're actually getting a broader so that we're actually getting a broader so that we're actually getting a more balanced view not only noticing the more balanced view not only noticing the more balanced view not only noticing the stressors and the pain but also stressors and the pain but also stressors and the pain but also appreciating the beauty and the goodness appreciating the beauty and the goodness appreciating the beauty and the goodness then the painful parts of life become then the painful parts of life become then the painful parts of life become smaller by comparison. Or as the smaller by comparison. Or as the smaller by comparison. Or as the Buddhists say sadu this has been a great Buddhists say sadu this has been a great Buddhists say sadu this has been a great conversation we've been able to cover a conversation we've been able to cover a conversation we've been able to cover a lot of ground very efficiently and lot of ground very efficiently and lot of ground very efficiently and economically. I'm curious though, is economically. I'm curious though, is economically. I'm curious though, is there anything you were hoping that we there anything you were hoping that we there anything you were hoping that we would get to that we haven't managed to would get to that we haven't managed to would get to that we haven't managed to get to? get to? get to? >> Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to just give >> Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to just give >> Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to just give you some of the statistics around the you some of the statistics around the you some of the statistics around the MOO program if that's okay. So, more is MOO program if that's okay. So, more is MOO program if that's okay. So, more is a breakthrough evidence-based mindbody a breakthrough evidence-based mindbody a breakthrough evidence-based mindbody therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and therapy rooted in ancient wisdom and modern neuroscience that's designed to modern neuroscience that's designed to modern neuroscience that's designed to simultaneously address addictive habits, simultaneously address addictive habits, simultaneously address addictive habits, emotional distress, and physical pain. emotional distress, and physical pain. emotional distress, and physical pain. and backed by $90 million in federal and backed by $90 million in federal and backed by $90 million in federal research in 16 clinical trials, more has research in 16 clinical trials, more has research in 16 clinical trials, more has been proven to be three times as been proven to be three times as been proven to be three times as effective as standard therapy. So we've effective as standard therapy. So we've effective as standard therapy. So we've we've shown that more reduces opioid we've shown that more reduces opioid we've shown that more reduces opioid misuse by 45% 9 months after the 8we misuse by 45% 9 months after the 8we misuse by 45% 9 months after the 8we treatment. We've also shown that more treatment. We've also shown that more treatment. We've also shown that more reduces drug relapse by 42% and more reduces drug relapse by 42% and more reduces drug relapse by 42% and more cuts craving by 50%. But more also has cuts craving by 50%. But more also has cuts craving by 50%. But more also has these these effects on chronic pain as I these these effects on chronic pain as I these these effects on chronic pain as I said. So more reduces chronic pain by said. So more reduces chronic pain by said. So more reduces chronic pain by 25% with on average and some patients 25% with on average and some patients 25% with on average and some patients achieve even more significant pain achieve even more significant pain achieve even more significant pain relief than that. And at the same time relief than that. And at the same time relief than that. And at the same time more has powerful anti-depressant more has powerful anti-depressant more has powerful anti-depressant effects and can result in clinically effects and can result in clinically effects and can result in clinically significant reductions in PTSD. So what significant reductions in PTSD. So what significant reductions in PTSD. So what makes more especially useful I think at makes more especially useful I think at makes more especially useful I think at this time in society is that you don't this time in society is that you don't this time in society is that you don't need a separate type of therapy for each need a separate type of therapy for each need a separate type of therapy for each one of these problems but actually you one of these problems but actually you one of these problems but actually you have one integrated therapy that can have one integrated therapy that can have one integrated therapy that can simultaneously address addictive simultaneously address addictive simultaneously address addictive behavior emotional distress and chronic behavior emotional distress and chronic behavior emotional distress and chronic pain and that's really important when pain and that's really important when pain and that's really important when thinking of solutions to the opioid thinking of solutions to the opioid thinking of solutions to the opioid crisis which is which is a severe crisis crisis which is which is a severe crisis crisis which is which is a severe crisis that's threatening our society and I that's threatening our society and I that's threatening our society and I think more is so effective because it it think more is so effective because it it think more is so effective because it it unites these innovative mindfulness unites these innovative mindfulness unites these innovative mindfulness reappraisal and savoring techniques into reappraisal and savoring techniques into reappraisal and savoring techniques into a powerful and sequenced mindbody a powerful and sequenced mindbody a powerful and sequenced mindbody treatment approach. So just rattling treatment approach. So just rattling treatment approach. So just rattling rattling off some more statistics, you rattling off some more statistics, you rattling off some more statistics, you can decide to use them or not. Have some can decide to use them or not. Have some can decide to use them or not. Have some new data showing that more is highly new data showing that more is highly new data showing that more is highly cost effective. So for every $1 spent on cost effective. So for every $1 spent on cost effective. So for every $1 spent on more, there are over $700 in cost more, there are over $700 in cost more, there are over $700 in cost savings. And if you accumulate that over savings. And if you accumulate that over savings. And if you accumulate that over the lifetime of the patient, the the lifetime of the patient, the the lifetime of the patient, the estimated cost savings are over $300,000 estimated cost savings are over $300,000 estimated cost savings are over $300,000 per person. So that's a big deal, per person. So that's a big deal, per person. So that's a big deal, especially in these times where especially in these times where especially in these times where healthcare funding is is is so troubled. healthcare funding is is is so troubled. healthcare funding is is is so troubled. And so we're trying to get the word out And so we're trying to get the word out And so we're trying to get the word out on this. So in in March of 2024, I went on this. So in in March of 2024, I went on this. So in in March of 2024, I went to brief Congress. I went to Capitol to brief Congress. I went to Capitol to brief Congress. I went to Capitol Hill and and brief the Addiction Hill and and brief the Addiction Hill and and brief the Addiction Treatment and Recovery Caucus of the US Treatment and Recovery Caucus of the US Treatment and Recovery Caucus of the US Congress on more because I'm really Congress on more because I'm really Congress on more because I'm really trying to disseminate this work. And now trying to disseminate this work. And now trying to disseminate this work. And now that I've spent 20 years trying to study that I've spent 20 years trying to study that I've spent 20 years trying to study this therapy and show that it works, I this therapy and show that it works, I this therapy and show that it works, I want to get it into the communities want to get it into the communities want to get it into the communities where people are suffering from where people are suffering from where people are suffering from addiction and emotional [clears throat] addiction and emotional [clears throat] addiction and emotional [clears throat] distress and chronic pain to help distress and chronic pain to help distress and chronic pain to help alleviate the opioid crisis. So a lot alleviate the opioid crisis. So a lot alleviate the opioid crisis. So a lot now is focused on disseminating more to now is focused on disseminating more to now is focused on disseminating more to teaching therapists and clinicians all teaching therapists and clinicians all teaching therapists and clinicians all around the country and all around the around the country and all around the around the country and all around the world. And we have an active training world. And we have an active training world. And we have an active training program online training program at more program online training program at more program online training program at more theapy.com. theapy.com. theapy.com. >> Okay. So that's that's what I was going >> Okay. So that's that's what I was going >> Okay. So that's that's what I was going to ask you where where if people want to to ask you where where if people want to to ask you where where if people want to learn more either to get involved as a learn more either to get involved as a learn more either to get involved as a trainer or to get the therapy trainer or to get the therapy trainer or to get the therapy themselves, it's it sounds like they themselves, it's it sounds like they themselves, it's it sounds like they should go to mortraining.com. should go to mortraining.com. should go to mortraining.com. >> more therapy.com. I published a book on >> more therapy.com. I published a book on >> more therapy.com. I published a book on more that walks through the entire more that walks through the entire more that walks through the entire therapeutic process. And that that book therapeutic process. And that that book therapeutic process. And that that book was published by Guilford Press in 2024. was published by Guilford Press in 2024. was published by Guilford Press in 2024. And we're going to be coming out with an And we're going to be coming out with an And we're going to be coming out with an app very soon that that contains these app very soon that that contains these app very soon that that contains these practices and and the education around practices and and the education around practices and and the education around more and that can also be found at more more and that can also be found at more more and that can also be found at more theapy.com. theapy.com. theapy.com. >> Eric, thanks for the work you're doing >> Eric, thanks for the work you're doing >> Eric, thanks for the work you're doing in the world. Thank you for coming on in the world. Thank you for coming on in the world. Thank you for coming on here and teaching us so much. Great job here and teaching us so much. Great job here and teaching us so much. Great job and on both and appreciate you. Thanks. and on both and appreciate you. Thanks. and on both and appreciate you. Thanks. >> Thank you so much for having me, Dan. >> Thank you so much for having me, Dan. >> Thank you so much for having me, Dan. It's great conversation. [music]