How To REPROGRAM Your Thoughts To HEAL Your Past & Get Unstuck! | Shaka Senghor & Christian Howes

Key Takeaway

Shame erases your victories by keeping you trapped in your worst moments. Break free by celebrating all your wins—not just the big ones. When you find yourself ruminating on past failures, bring yourself to the present moment. Your past doesn't exist anymore. Creating a new scorecard starts with being present and acknowledging every small victory you've achieved. This is how you stop being held hostage to your old self and transform into who you're becoming.

Episode Overview

Shaka Senghor and Christian Howes, both formerly incarcerated men who transformed their lives, discuss breaking free from internal prisons of shame, guilt, and trauma. They share profound insights on discovering freedom within solitary confinement, processing past mistakes with compassion, and creating new identities beyond their worst moments.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How To REPROGRAM Your Thoughts To HEAL Your Past & Get Unstuck! | Shaka Senghor & Christian Howes from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Shame erases the victories. And when you lean into that old narrative, it literally says, "This season doesn't count." Whenever I found myself ruminating on a past failure, what I instantaneous try to do is bring myself to the present moment. Like, my past does not exist anymore. That's how you get out of the shame. And that's how you start to create a new scorecard is just being present in the moment. In prison, this was one of my big questions like what is the code of a man?

You don't let anybody disrespect you. I think that the irony of this it is ultimately a path of self-hatred and self-destruction because if somebody disrespects you then you have to meet it and then it only just goes to that you're willing to kill somebody or you're willing to ma somebody which actually is just killing yourself one of the top jazz violinists in the world educator music industry entrepreneur Christian have I heard your story it's pretty wild I'm here with best-selling author Shaka Sincor Sincor Sincor a couple of years ago I got a letter from the man who shot me when I was 17 years old.

years old. years old. Yeah, I saw this. This is crazy. When I got the letter, it triggered the old me. I can have this guy taken care of instantaneously. I was like, "Oh, this is how the universe tests what you really believe." really believe." really believe." Oh, man. That's heavy. I want to ask about forgiveness. about forgiveness. about forgiveness. Cuz I think forgiveness is a big part to everyone's life. everyone's life. everyone's life. Forgiveness is the big one. What I will say to to your audience is this.

Welcome back everyone to the school of greatness. Very excited about our guests. We have my brother Christian House and Shaka Sangor in the house. And for anyone who's feeling trapped physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually, and you feel like you can't break free within your own mind, in your own heart, or in your body, this is the episode for you. It's all about how to become a free human being. We've got two amazing individuals on here who are going to be talking about their experience from overcoming so much before prison, during prison, and after prison.

And there is so much that the world does not know about on what you guys have gone through and how you've overcome the lives that you've had. And there are a lot of people, Shocki, you talk about this that there are a lot of people that are in prison who are actually not in prison. prison. prison. Yeah. and they are living an imprisoned life even though they're not behind bars. And yet both of you were behind bars and I think both of you became free at some point in your own minds behind bars, but you've also been prisoners outside of bars.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I want to start with a And so I want to start with a quote from your book Shaka and then let you guys open it up from here. This quote says, "Prison is designed to break you. the walls, the rules, the routine, it's all meant to strip you down until you forget who you are. But what I discovered is that the most powerful prisons aren't the ones made of concrete and steel. They're the ones we carry with with us built from grief, anger, shame, trauma, and self-doubt.

Mhm. And I'm curious, how have you learned and how have both of you learned how to overcome the prisons that you created within yourself yourself yourself outside of prison? I'll let you start sh that's such an incredible uh question. You know, when I think about my journey to actual physical incarceration where I spent 19 years, seven years of those was in solitary confinement. What I discovered through that process of freeing myself was that I had been incarcerated before I had ever been in handcuffs because I had inherited a narrative that said, "You'll be dead or locked up before you're 21.

I was sentenced to prison. I was 19 years old." So, I fulfilled that prophecy that I thought about, you know, you manifested what you thought. Absolutely. In the negative, right? It was like this whole thing that oh my life can only have this outcome. So let me just live within the framework of of that mindset. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. And it was when I was in solitary confinement that I went on this journey journaling trying to unpack how did I get here? I wanted to be an artist and a doctor.

But here I was serving out my most promising years in prison in a prison inside of prison which is solitary confinement. And what I did is I started journaling to ask this question, how did I get here? And what I discovered was mindblowing because I realized that the mindset that I had accepted based on that narrative led me to that path. And what I began to challenge was if this works absolutely in the negative, then it has to work in the positive. And that's when I went on this journey to discover my mind, which I eventually fell in love with.

And that's where I found myself getting free. free. free. When did you first fall in love with your mind? How old were you? I would have been at that point probably 27 or so. I was in solitary. So 1999 2000 and it was through the journaling process and I found this incredible human being who had been covered up by trauma, shame, uh grief, you know, all the things, anger, the things this cloud that had I had carried around and I found myself working through that cloud and I was like oh this beautiful human being exist and if you can embrace this human being this little boy who had all these dreams and desires and desires and desires like you'll never be, you know, held captive by anything.

And that's when I began that journey and it was the most it's the most be my mind is the most beautiful place that I exist in. in. in. Wow. Wait. So for those that don't know what solitary confinement actually is, maybe they have a conception of what it is. Explain what it is for people that have no clue. So solitary confinement is 23-hour lockdown 23-hour lockdown 23-hour lockdown every day in the most chaotic, barbaric, inhumane environment imaginable. It is the one thing in America that I don't think people are even aware of the brutality that exists in that environment and what it's designed to do.

Um it is literally designed to break a human being and to you know ensure that when you leave there any semblance of humanity no longer exist and to be able to discover my own mind in that environment was both survival but also a spiritual reckoning that you know I'm I'm fortunate I was able to go into solitude inside of solitary. Wow. which are different things which is that that internal journey um that I was able to go on but after 7 years how do you find peace within solitary confinement there's no mentors there's no art there's no music there's no creativity around you how did you create that within you well I was really lucky um I think that there are spaces in the world where if you inhabit them you may be lucky right so if you live in a certain area code that can be a matter of luck.

If you're born with the genetics of LeBron James, there's a physical luck there, right? That you can't script that. Uh my luck that I was actually literate in an environment where the average literacy rate is third grade. And so I was able to read stories of other people who had triumphed over hardship. Uh I was able to read fiction. I was able to read autobiographies and philosophy. And so those things just kept my mind moving forward. And what I've come to understand about being stuck, whether it's being imprisoned in your own mind, whether it's suicidal ideiation, whether it's depression, is what happens is your mind can't take another step.

another step. another step. And so what reading did for me was that it allowed me to just keep my mind moving forward as I was fighting to really unlock myself from this imprisoned way of being. Wow. Wow. Wow. Now, both you and Chris are the same age, age, age, right? You went in essentially around the same time, maybe a six-month window difference and when you both went into jail at the same time and jail back then was a different time than it is now. I'm assuming on how things are run.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know if they're any better, but I'm I'm assuming they're different. Yeah. But what Chris from what Shaka just shared what resonated with you from your personal experience and again you guys are around the same age went at the same time same time same time you know around the same neighborhood you know vibe four hours away from each other Michigan Ohio what's what what opened up for you during that during that during that pretty much everything that I've heard Shaka talk about has resonated with me in one way or another um from every and he speaks prolifically and eloquently about all these topics and you know so it's great for me to hear it from him to answer your question like when I was locked up and Shaka asked me this question earlier too um I tried to focus on like four areas of productivity uh one was like intellectual academic reading you know um one was my musical um development one was uh just my body, you know, so working out.

And then the fourth one was that I tried to maintain interpersonal relationships, not only in prison, but really I'm talking about by by writing letters. So I would write letters to our family and to a few people back home. Those four things that was like kind of my I guess north star of like like how am I going to make the most of this four years? Because obviously on any given day in prison, you have a choice. A lot of a lot of times people think, "Oh, you're in prison when you had nothing better to do." So, of course, you became a great writer and like you got strong.

It's like, no, it doesn't work that way. I always tell people if you were on a stranded island, you'd be surprised at how easy it is to get depressed and and like, you know, and I didn't do seven years in solitary, but I did probably about seven weeks in solitary. So, I know what it feels like. And I remember that I would be in sol and this is a perfect example, right? Well, you'll tell me what you think, but it when you're in solitary, you feel like, "Okay, today I'm going to read books.

I'm going to do push-ups. I'm going to do meditation. But then you I didn't always have the strength to do that. And I would just lay the entire day and I could not get myself up. I don't know if you ever experienced but that's how so so it doesn't matter if you have time. It's still the same dilemma for a human being like what are you going to do with your time? And I think if anything, prison just it just highlights these lessons for us, you know, and um but since I've been out, which was part of your question, like how do I escape the prisons that can show up for me as Shaka says from grief, trauma, shame, guilt, all these kinds of things.

I will say that it's a we have to keep we have to keep maintaining it. We need to keep our eyes on it. Mhm. And I think there can be times just like in prison where we're up and where things are feeling good and then there there can be a downturn. So I'm 53 now. I've been out of prison almost 30 years. And so even now at 53 I'm like hey this where are we going next? next? next? How do we keep it moving positive? Um so I so the same thing really to be honest with you it's like all the things that you share on your podcast like these are the things that inspire me.

you know, constantly trying to look for what can I do to feed my body, my the my knowledge of psychology, my emotional intelligence, and um building healthy relationships. relationships. relationships. I mean, you know, not everyone watching this or listening has been to prison, but I'm assuming everyone watching or listening has experienced some type of shame or guilt or grief in their life or resentment or anger. They've experienced similar emotions. Mhm. But how how have each one of you learned to heal from shame, guilt, or trauma that occurred either before prison, in prison, or sharing your story after prison?

How have each one of you learned or are still learning how to do it and not feeling ashamed every time you walk into a room? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do does someone know this about me? Do they not know this about me? Should I say this? Should I not say this? like how to not feel ashamed about who you are are are and what you've been through. That's such a great question and one of the one of the things about shame I I actually write there's a chapter I write about this feeling right um and actually it came from my work out here in society working the regular job like most people are doing and I remember I had this moment where a project was handed to me it's a very expensive project and I'm working with you know this team who I believed in they were capable and unfortunately just couldn't deliver and I could I should have just stopped the project but I kept going to the end cost the company some money cost some time and I remember talking to the CEO and and we had a very kind of just like a debriefing and he walked me through kind of you know his process of like what could you have done different what would you do etc right and it was a very thoughtful very prolific very intentional way of like assessing how do we just get better faster and and more productive productive productive and I remember just being seized up with this feeling of like, man, I failed, you know, and what I did, which is one of my superpowers, is my ability to go back and write about what was the real feeling there?

What was really coming up for me? What was the real feeling? The real feeling was attached to my childhood at a time where somebody who our family trusted attempted to molest me. me. me. And as a kid who didn't know what to do with the feelings of anger, I responded by breaking into this guy's house with the with the attempt to destroy his home and just say, "Hey, what you did wasn't okay." And I got caught by the police and I got arrested. and my mother and my father, they thought that I was just on some type of bad behavior experience, but there was a deeper thing that had happened and I hadn't talked about it.

And my family, my parents, they hadn't created space for me to talk about it, which is something that I think a lot of people, you know, end up being trapped in shame because there's no space to talk about it. And finally, I was 50 years old, the first time I ever told my dad my reason for breaking in that man's house. house. house. And I called both of my parents and I remember talking to my dad. I'm a dad. And it was this moment where I just said to him, you know, hey, here's my wife.

And I could just feel through the phone my dad just like, oh, whoa. You know, as a dad, that could not have felt good that, hey, I took my off the ball. maybe or maybe not. I don't know. But I explained to him like it wasn't nothing he did. This guy was just who he was, right? Um and so there's these moments that I've experienced it and even with my past where it came full circle, which was one of the things that inspired the book is my brother was murdered in 2021.

I fly home to Detroit to help with the burial process, all the things. And there was a moment where I'm just sitting there and my stepmom, my bonus mom, she's crying cuz she's grieving my brother's life. And I was struck by this feeling of guilt at a time when I should have been grieving because I made somebody else's family feel like that. And that moment for me was like, you know, this is a deeper level of shame. Um, and so what I did is I I I actually ended up writing a letter to the brother to the person who murdered my brother.

And that ability to understand that something had to transpire in his life for him to pull that trigger helped me process the feeling of guilt, but also the feeling of shame. recognized that the 19year-old me that pulled that trigger was a hurt, broken kid who had no space to heal. And I was able to have empathy while still being accountable. Um, and so what I was all these things that I've used to unpack these larger life lessons because I've seen colleagues who are doing amazing but they don't get a thing right and they beat up on themselves.

I've seen parents. I've seen people in relationships and it all comes back to often times something that happened early in our childhood that imprinted in our minds that we have to be perfect or we can't make mistakes and if we do make a mistake that we must therefore beat up on ourselves over and over and over again again again yeah replaying that moment of the failure over and over and what journaling did for me is it disrupted that cycle. What writing that letter did is it broke that cycle and allowed me to be present with myself and feel the grief of losing my brother without attaching it to my own guilt.

And like that's the power of like really awakening to the to one's mind and realizing if you just keep these small steps, you know, writing it down, it's a it seems like a small thing to do. It's one of the biggest unlocks that we can, you know, ever have access to. Have you ever tried journaling, Chris, in the last, you know, since you've been out of jail, have you tried any of that or how have you learned how to process or still now trying to figure it out what's been open up for you from the healing journey?

I It is funny that I mean I developed a writing habit and I've I've recently I've kind of traced that back to when I was in prison and writing letters all the time. I've seen that that is beneficial. But I would say just naming it and even having permission as men especially to give a name to these real emotions, you know, and I think that's part of what I admire so much about your work, why I think it's so important what you're doing, you know, creating like an example and you, you know, example for men to be able to talk about um fear, shame, guilt, you know, the things that are not commonly associated as like manly emotions.

I think that and in prison this was one of my big questions like what is the code of a man? Like what does it mean to be a man? And when you're in and we talk about this in the film um we use art to kind of address this question of because I think some of these the answers can't all be spelled out in words literally too. It has sometimes it's poetic, sometimes it's visual, sometimes it's artistic. Um, but in prison, you know, you learn about the code of a convict.

But I've kind of wondered like what's the difference? The code of a convict, code of a man. I mean, that's really what I wanted to know when I was 20 going into jail. Probably I think around the same time as you, right? And you were 19. I was 20. But I mean, I was young. I didn't identify as a grown man at 20. Right. I was like I thought, well, in a couple years I'll be a grown man. Right. But I went in there and I was like like I was asking men around me like how does it work?

Like what is it? And and there's very conflicting messages that we get as men for what it means to be a man. And I think one of the the most uh the epitome of one of those messages is the idea that um as a man you don't let anybody disrespect you. You don't let anybody like get over on you, right? But this I think that the irony of this is that if we follow this definition that it is ultimately a path of self-hatred and self-destruction. And in prison, you see that it's like to the the ultimate degree, right?

Because if somebody disrespects you, then you have to meet it. And then it it only just goes to that you're willing to kill somebody or you're willing to maim somebody which actually is just killing yourself yourself yourself because then you're going to do a life bit. So this idea that a man is someone who is willing to meet anything with violence I think is very it's a very destructive force for men. And I think it's also related to these other things like not being able to name fear.

What do you mean by not being able to name something? What does that mean? I think that men are are um don't feel comfortable saying I felt afraid. Like this is another film. This is another um theme that we address in this film that I made and where it's like this idea of PTSD, right? Like I went to see a therapist or I heard about this thing called PTSD and I was like, "Well, what is it?" is it?" is it?" And I was really cuz you just hear the initials and you're like, "I don't know what that means.

It's a condition, right? You don't really understand." Well, post-traumatic stress disorder. Basically, the way it was explained to me, it's like I asked my therapist. I was like, "Is it do I have PTSD?" And he was like, "Well, wait, so you spent four years in prison?" He was like, "Well, yeah, that would be a good reason to have it." And but he broke it down to me. He said, "PTSD is something if you've found yourself in a lot of uncertainty and a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety." But what I'm saying is that I don't think I had given myself permission to acknowledge that I had been afraid.

been afraid. been afraid. I I think it's like taboo to say I feel fear. Again, this is part of what I admire about you, I think, is like you're very strong man who also names all these different emotions, complex emotions, and provide a model for how and you too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And this is like your book, The Mask of Masculinity, I think, deals with a lot of these things. So I try to be constantly surrounding myself with education and inspiration, you know, stories and uh and of course I I keep trying to be engaged in all the other work of being present in my body, present in my emotions, you know, meditation, all these things.

But um but that's I think it starts with naming these things and making it less taboo to be able to talk about as men all these different feelings that we have. If we talk first of all if we say I feel grief that's the starting point. Yeah. Let's say I feel fear. I feel shame. I feel guilt. It has to start there. Life is unpredictable and sometimes we're hit with an unexpected purchase after another. And I've been there before. One day the AC in your car decides to stop working in the middle of the summer.

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$25 a month with autopay, $30 your first month. Guarantee exclusions apply. Seite for details. On a scale of, and there's no right or wrong answer, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how much shame do you still feel from your past pains, what whatever it might be, whether it being jail time or stuff before, whatever it might be. 10 being the most amount of shame, one being the least amount of shame. So that's part one. Um 1 to 10, how much shame do you still feel?

still feel? still feel? And number two, how do you process the shame now, if there is any to not be it so extreme or so intense in your body or in your mind to hold you back from living the life you want? That that's a that's a powerful question. You know, I think I think in my in my journey, what I what I know with certainty is that it's been a sliding scale, sliding scale, sliding scale, of course. of course. of course. And I didn't realize this until I actually began to write about shame that environmental factors often time dictate how we feel about ourselves.

M growing up in a city like Detroit where the impact of like the the war on drugs was very present. A lot of people were incarcerated, a lot of people who were shot and killed. The understanding of that environment in my community saying, "Hey, we understand that you went through this thing, but it's not who you are today." Kind of lessened that that that feeling. Um, but it's also been weaponized in intimate relationships, you know, where I've had, you know, partners at times basically use my past to try to demean me.

That's not good. Uh, and that was like, whoa, you know, and it made me stop and pause and think about, well, wow, does this person really see me as my old self? Right. Um, and and just for context, I went to prison for seconddegree homicide. Um, and so to have someone who says that they love you call you a murderer and then how do you how do you, you know, evolve from that, right? Um, and I remember when that that experience happened and it did it it took it it made that scale slide way up, right?

I'm like more shame at that point. Yeah. Just more like, hey, this is the person that I'm, you know, tasked with protecting protecting protecting and if they really see me in this way, what does that say? Right. Yeah. Um, and then there's the subconscious things that happen when you're in culture, right? You're I'm at work and I would just we' be in the sales cycle and they're like, "Yo, you killed that." And I'm like, "Oh," you know what I mean? So, it's just like this subconscious thing will come up or a works thing like you did a good job but using it.

Right. Right. And and without them even being aware of like what that could signal or or mean. And then there's the other social context. I move in a lot of spaces where oftent times because of the space that I'm in, nobody would even assume that I spent 20 years in prison, right? right? right? And so to hear people talk candidly about someone who's committed a crime and that they should be locked away forever, they should be given a death penalty, like those moments of like, wow, like this is what that person would think think think if I was, you know, at that low stage of my life, right?

They might have thought that about you 1920. Exactly. Right. And so how I've combed that is that I have been able to recognize recognize recognize that my 19-year-old self was a kid who had experienced more trauma than is almost humanly possible for people to even understand. And that that kid deserved to be one held accountable, which I was. I served that time, but also to really be re to recognize that that was a traumatic reaction to a life full of trauma and that there is empathy and compassionate that those things can both be true.

Yes. That I can be accountable, but that I can also recognize that there was something that drove that behavior that no longer exists in me today. Um, and so it's just a constant going back and reminding myself. And as I say, that scale slides back and forth. Uh where it's at today is a zero. I feel no shame in and in and who I'm at, but tomorrow something else could arise and then I have to do the work to get it back down to a zero.

Sure. Okay. Yeah. It's powerful about you, Chris. you, Chris. you, Chris. That really resonates with me. Um I think I agree that I do a lot of work in schools. I've visited nearly a thousand orchestra classrooms in the United States in the last 30 years, you know, and that's a big part of what I do is going and working with kids, middle school and high school. And a lot of the teachers that have hired me over the years, they know my backstory and they even think like, well, this is a good thing.

We want this guy to be able to set a good example for these kids. and you know whether it's explicit or whether it's uh implicit I I see part of the work of being a music educator as also influencing positive character development right you know and so if I'm going and there's been a lot of times when people have asked me explicitly to speak about character issues or tell my story and impart the messages you know to kids to try to um not necessarily scare them straight but to inspire ire them to to do good things.

But most of the time when I go to schools, I'm just a music teacher, right? I'm I'm being I'm like a guest music teacher. And some sometimes I worry that like if you know these teachers, they might they might not want to hire me if they know my backstory because not everybody does, you know. And so that kind of like, you know, this this this thought that that what you said about it depending on how other people are responding to you. I I can relate to that.

But in general, I feel like it's work that I just have to keep doing. Like even if that brings up if one experience with a person brings up shame in me or guilt or triggers me, I just see that as evidence that I need to keep doing work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To get to a zero ideally as much of the time. And then it's about I I do believe that we have the ability to respond, you know, and we that we have to cultivate that ability and that choice to respond to situations that might trigger us today.

today. today. So I'm working on that. You're talking about the old self versus the new self. If I think anyone here could identify that and no matter what type of shame or trauma or experiences they've been through, you know, no what range of, you know, experiences they've been through, the old self, old self, old self, you know, I think people hold on to shame because they're living in the old self a lot. Thinking of like what they did or what someone did to them or what they didn't do or what they should have done or whatever, the mistakes they made or the problems that happened, who they hurt, who hurt them, things like that.

thinking of these things and holding on to them and it's still us I think when we live in that shame. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's got to be a point where we can learn to figure out how to process and integrate a new version of ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so we can still recognize that part of our story but not be the new identity of who we are today. Yeah. So how do we learn to shift from an old self or an old identity and transform into a new self and new identity without shame?

That's such a great uh flaming for for a question that I think about often is how how does one reimagine themselves and how do you create a new narrative and not be held hostage to your worst moment. moment. moment. Yes. And what I found for me is that is celebrating celebrating celebrating all the victories. Uh not just the small ones or not just the big ones but when you start getting into the details of how do you actually show up right? So when I was thinking about my experience at the company what I thought about was that that was one pro you know project that I didn't get right but what about all these other ones I got right?

What about all of my colleagues that come to me in search of wisdom to solve a problem? How many different ways have I innovated at this company and help the CEO see something that he probably would not have seen without being in conversation with me? Right? And so it's like we if we get to a space where we stop erasing our victories cuz that's what shame does. Shame erases the victories. And when you lean into that old narrative, it literally says, "Hey, this season doesn't count." And you think about it from a sports, you know, perspective, right?

Like, you know, we'd love to hold on to the lore of yesterday year when it's the winning part of it. Um, but we know we can't carry those, you know, those losses over to the next year. Start with a clean slate. And it's really about how do you give yourself a clean slate? How do you actually count those victories and be intentional about it, writing it down, you know, that's the the journaling part for me? The other part is mindfulness. Um, whenever I found myself ruminating on a past failure, what I instantaneous try to do is bring myself to the present moment.

Sometime that's just with gratitude. I'm thankful to be in this moment. moment. moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thankful that I have a glass of water. And that ability to move into the present is one of the greatest unlocks, right? Because oftentimes we're just lo we're living in a space that no longer exists. Like my past does not exist anymore, you know? Uh it doesn't I'm not in that moment anymore. Uh my future hasn't arrived. So, I can only be here in this moment with you and Chris, which I feel so grateful for, you know, to hear Chris articulate his experience and it's mirroring some of the things that I navigate, right?

Um, that's how you like get out of the shame and that's how you start to create a new scorecard is just being present in the moment, you know? That's interesting. That's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. And Chris, do you feel like you were holding on to or trying to hide the past after you got out of jail for a while the first few years? Or were, you know, I just heard you in chocolate talking about saying, "I'm just going to go be a musician and not talking about this and let you know, let this be in the past." the past." the past." Well, it's f Yeah.

When I first got out, um I remember I applied for this thing to go to um some teaching and it was like a a music slash whatever and I and I proposed. I said, "And I'm going to talk about, you know, like drugs and I'm going to talk about, you know, try to impart some of these messages to encourage kids." And they and some of the feedback I got from this particular particular application was like, "No, just just stick with the music. We don't want you to talk about this other thing." thing." thing." But um I don't know, maybe that made you feel shameful of like who knows, you know, there could have been a lot of different factors.

I mean, fact is right now I'm I'm wanting to lean more back into this because I sense that it is it's important for me to develop. It's important for me to lean into it as opposed to away from it. And recently I've reconnected with um re-entry communities. communities. communities. And that's been really inspiring because I feel like when I'm in a room in that room with formerly incarcerated people, I feel like I belong in that room. I feel like there's a way that I can be authentic that I don't always feel in any other spaces.

Even just like connecting with you, you know, before the show, there's just a there's a sort of understanding and a feeling of being seen for who I am and a feeling of not needing to be ashamed actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so so I think that why why is that? I don't know why. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know why? Well, I mean, well, when we're in prison, I think you do learn to see the prisoners as being human human human and And and when I first got locked up and you went for drugs, right?

Yeah. It was a drug charge. Yeah. It was uh trafficking LSD. And uh when I first got locked up, you know, we came from the same family and uh I was on full scholarship at Ohio State University at the time. And I had been identified as quote unquote academically gifted and all these things. And when I and I and then and a lot of people thought that what I did was kind of like didn't really count as a crime. It's kind of like but it did but you know but that was like an old narrative of like oh it's just drugs and so when I went in I kind of had this narrative inside that was like well I'm a drug dealer and you I think you see a lot of this in prison like people are like well there's a there's a hierarchy of you always trying to say like it's not I'm not as bad as that guy you know and so I kind of have that that story when I went in but the longer I was in the more I saw like I'm exactly the same as everybody else here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like why is that? Yeah, I think I think part of it was that I saw the people that I was with as being deeply human and you know that there was so much I could learn from them that they had so much rich knowledge and wisdom and soulfulness and that that there you know my relationships with them were meaningful and I was learning so much from the people that I met in prison and you know the idea would be that like you know because I had all these good grades and like the full that I should be the one that's teaching and And I did teach a lot of musicians.

A lot of lot of people came to me to teach them about music, but I learned more from them, you know, and so so I think maybe another answer to your question is that through positive relationships is a way to hopefully to hopefully to hopefully um work through some of this shame to surround yourself with people who see you as human and and constantly um give you that feedback of valuing your that humanity. What were the uh three biggest lessons each one of you learned in jail?

Whether it be from a person that said something, something you observed, something you experienced yourself, you know, three biggest lessons. I'll let you start, Chris. I mean that would probably be one of them is that knowledge knowledge knowledge um comes from in more places and more people than we are taught to believe and that we can really enrich our perspective perspective perspective um the more that we listen to a a wide variety of voices that knowledge can come from so many different things. I think another lesson that I learned was um that and this is maybe kind of a even a a cliche, but like when things are hard, we have the capability of being hard.

hard. hard. And when things are not hard, we can get soft real quick. And so we have to be, you know, my experience is that we have to um constantly be v vigilant about that because again, when you're when you're really suffering with things that are hard, you can rise the occasion. But it can be easy to become soft and in bad ways. And in being soft, like not taking care of yourself, you're doing yourself a disservice. And and that's something you have to cultivate. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, as far as a third a third lesson, I think that the lesson that I want to always be present to is the lesson that I've also heard you speak eloquently about, which is when you came out, how much you were, how much gratitude you had for the simple things in life. That's something that I want to be more present to. I think teach prison teaches you much more about the um the the levels of uh of how much can be taken from you and it teaches you to value intimacy and trust and freedom.

There's probably a lot of other lessons but that's that's three that I got for now. What about for you Shaka? Oh man, so many so many lessons. I I I would say one of the big lessons I've learned from prison that applies to life is that even the great amongst us can fall short. fall short. fall short. And that even the lowliest of us can rise again. rise again. rise again. And that that is something I've learned in prison from just being around incredible incredible men.

Some of the most inspiring men uh that I've ever met in my life. Uh second lesson that I would say is is one of the ones that probably is the most near and dear to my heart. Um is being in service of others is one of the greatest expressions of our humanity. Um something that I've carried you know I'm always in service of specifically young people and people who are marginalized and who have been forgotten about or demeaned you know by society. Then I would just I think the third one is um it's kind of like the third one is that prison prison prison doesn't define you.

It just reveals the essence of who you are. And like that to me is rooted in, you know, this question that I get often of like how did you become so resilient? And I'm like I didn't go in prison knowing I was resilient. Uh it wasn't until I was in the story that I began to recognize this deeper part of what it means to be able to overcome adversity. Um and that that's what prison revealed to me about myself is that as someone who's had I mean just incredible amounts of trauma and adversity, I also have an indomitable will to overcome those things.

Um and so those those are probably the big key lessons. But I mean it's like Chris says there's so many more. Um when he was speaking about naming naming the things right I was I was really like struck in my spirit by the idea of like fear and something that's really interesting in society is we always talk about people who are courageous. Um but you can't have courage if you were never afraid. afraid. afraid. It's true. It's true. It's true. Like if you're not afraid Like if you're not afraid then that doesn't require you to be courageous.

courageous. courageous. Yeah. Um, but if you were ever been courageous in your life, if you've ever done anything where you like, man, I it took courage to do that, that means that you had fear and you did it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I live my life in that space of like going forward in spite of. Um, and so that was great that we get a chance to name, you know, these feelings and these emotions and and these thoughts. And Mike, I'm just so grateful right now to be in conversation with you and learn from your journey.

Likewise, things to see where it's brought you and where it's taking you. So, it's incredible. it's incredible. it's incredible. It's powerful. This is powerful. And again, I'm I'm for anyone watching or listening, listening, listening, I think anyone can relate to the feeling of not feeling free in their life at some point. And maybe it's right now in a relationship. Maybe it's in their career. Maybe they don't feel free in their body. They don't feel free in their mind. They feel anxious and stressed all the time.

And the goal is how do we create as much inner peace and freedom as possible to experience life to the fullest, have beautiful relationships, and feel joy as often as possible. possible. possible. Amen. Amen. Amen. And it doesn't mean we're not going to experience experience experience challenges and limiting thoughts and grief and sadness and go through hard seasons. seasons. seasons. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But how do we not let those hard seasons turn into hard years and a hard lifetime? lifetime? lifetime? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And overcome them through grace.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious. The the synchronicities here are really cool. I didn't even realize you guys both went in essentially the same year and you're the same age until we got here earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's been almost 35 years since you both went in. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're both 54. You went in around 1920. Sorry. 53. So 53 like 34 years. Almost almost 34 years, right? Over three decades. Three and a half decades almost since you went in. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. If each of you could go back and talk to your younger self M the day before the crime or day before it you were the action happened where you got sentenced essentially. Um if you could say something to your younger self younger self younger self at this version like you as now going back Shaka and walking right up to the younger 19 version of you. If you could say something you had a minute to say something. What would you say for one and two, do you think what you say would actually matter from you changing changing changing and not deciding to take that action?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Would it have made a difference? So, I'm curious about that. I'll have you both say uh reply to this. What would you say to your younger self right before the the crime? the crime? the crime? Wow, that's a that's a great question. Um Um Um what what what what I would say to that 19year-old kid is you are deserving of therapy and treatment to address what happened to you and and and you should feel okay with seeking that out even though it wasn't offered.

And then the second part of that question is that based on my mentoring young men and young women who come from similar backgrounds, who have had similar experiences, experiences, experiences, I think it would have worked really. really. really. Um, Um, Um, if you were eye to eye with your younger self from your version now, my version now. If you sat with him before that day happened, Yeah. And you said this, you think you could have gotten through your younger self? younger self? younger self? I think so.

And and I say that because I've gotten through to enough young men at this version of myself now. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Uh who have come off, you know, being victims of gun violence and I've encouraged them to actually seek out therapy. therapy. therapy. Uh and I've created the space for them to realize that that doesn't make them weak. weak. weak. It makes them human. Wow. and that it's going to empower them to make different life decisions. And so to to get the type of letters I get from the young men that I've met on this part of my journey and how they say that one conversation conversation conversation wow wow wow helped them think about life differently.

differently. differently. Wow. Wow. Wow. Make different decisions. You know, it requires what's required to do that is a deep understanding of all those consequences. those consequences. those consequences. Um, and you you said something earlier that I love is that when you enter these spaces, you're not doing a scared straight program. straight program. straight program. Ah, Ah, Ah, these young men need to be love straight. straight. straight. Like Jason Wilson, what he's doing, you know, it's like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And acting eye to eye, being vulnerable.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think it works in Yeah. So, I think it works in that context. Uh, because I've seen it work enough times. Okay. What about you, Chris? What would you say you say you say that that resonates a lot? I think that I would I would say to that young man um I would name some of those feelings that that he's feeling and I would say it's okay to feel those things. You know, these are these are um and it's okay to get help.

Um, and I would try to also point that young man towards the hope of a positive vision for his life and all the joy and love and connection and purpose that he could tap into because I think he was missing all of that, all those things at that moment. Yeah. I don't know if he would listen if it was just one day, but if I if I if I had enough time and if I could if I could, you know, wrap around him and like hold him back from certain things that maybe it would have changed.

I guess the challenge is, you know, this is what late ' 80s, early 90s. When was this? was this? was this? Early 90s. Early 90s. There was not even talk of therapy back then. That's the challenge. So it's like now guys know they hear of it more. They see it more. Yeah, that's if you would have said that word in the early 90s, they'd have been like, "What?" Like, that's a crazy thing. That's But it's more acceptable now. It's more talked about in culture. You see pro aletes talking about it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Artists, you know, you see other men that you might be inspired by talking about these things, but no one's talking about it in the '9s. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, who knows if you would have been receptive. I have no idea. Maybe you would have, but now these kids are who are teenagers who are more open to it because they see men talking about it. They see Oprah talking about it with you and they're like, "Oh, that's cool. That's interesting. It's not a shameful thing to talk about." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Back then it was very shameful. Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. So, that's the I think it's a challenge you guys faced culturally. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. In the early '9s that it was you couldn't show any other way than scaring people straight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You couldn't show vulnerability because there was no model of it that was acceptable. No, that's true. I mean, unless you guys tell me wrong. Unless you saw something on TV where men were open and vulnerable and talking to Oprah and doing these things where, you know, they were like, "Hey, let's talk about our fears and let's talk about our shame." No one was doing that back then, right?

right? right? No. No, we weren't. And I mean, even now there's there's I mean, we're still overcoming and fighting against those stigmas, you know, especially when you factor in some of the environmental um realities, right? And, you know, I think that we're definitely way further along than we ever were back then. But I, you know, I also think that, you know, how we even got here is that we had great translators. And, you know, that's what I would have hoped that I could have been for that kid is how do you translate something that seems so complex and so counterintuitive into something that is, you know, you know, available to you.

I mean, that's what I had in prison. I had incredible mentors incredible mentors incredible mentors and they realized that the approach to me like you can't scare me straight. I just came off a street where people was shooting AKs all the time. And so what they what they saw was that if they could, you know, get me to be just curious about life and reading and things like that and then they can challenge that part of me that was very rebellious, right? So I would I would these these mentors they were master teachers and what they would do is they challenged me with books and words and they would say well you didn't read that book because if you did what does it say in chapter 8 you know what was what was Socrates talking about in this dialogue what was Malcolm talking about in this story and I was like oh I actually did read it.

So now we're in the dust, right? But it was feeding that part of that young, you know, lion on the yard, all that testosterone, and it was just directing it to intellect. And so I would go and have these like incredible debates in the law library with these master teachers without even knowing that they were actually teaching me. They were teaching me how to research. They were teaching me how to defend my position. They were teaching me how to arrive at an argument that I believed in and that I cared enough about to vocalize.

And they did it in a way that was approachable. They did it in a way that was accessible. If they would have just came in like, "Hey, you need to do these things, you know, to change your life." Instant wall would have been up, you know. And so when I think about going back, you know, it's like, okay, you go back with the wisdom of now. It's that you got to set the table. You know, you have to set the table right for someone to come in and enjoy that spiritually rich food.

And if you set the table right, the likelihood of them being able to lower those walls is higher than if you just come in hot and heavy like, you know, hey, if you don't do this, you're going to tear up and destroy your life. What is the one conversation you wish you could have with every young man or woman who's going through some type of feelings of being trapped or they've been traumatized and they can't get past the trauma or the feeling of, you know, anxiety, depression, fear, uncertainty?

What's the one conversation you wish you could have with any young man or woman? So the way that I think about it is it's more about the idea of the young man or woman that inhabits the body of adult men and women because what you think about this audience inside all of us is that kidned to right to right to right and and what I what I would say is that one of my um my my quotables is like never settle for mediocrity. when greatness is available.

Um, you know, that's a conversation I always have with with the young people that I mentor. Uh, but also with my peers when we're in deep conversation about acknowledging what exists inside of us, which is that young person who's still looking for validation, still looking to be affirmed, still looking for somebody to bolster their confidence. um is recognizing we don't have to stop loving on that little person inside of us. us. us. We don't have to stop being curious. Uh one of the chapters in the book is on joy and one of the breakdowns is about being a joy hunter.

How do you go out and find that joy that feeds that inner kid? Um because that's how you get to to great outcomes is when you can be curious. I also talk about a mentor who I had he worked in the prison. I'm I'm I'm curious if you had this type of mentor, but he was a civilian employee civilian employee civilian employee and he asked me a question that literally changed the trajectory of my life. life. life. He was a he was outside of the prison.

He would come in and Yeah. He came in. Yeah. He came in and ran a rec recreation program. What did he ask you? He asked me, "What else could I do with my mind?" my mind?" my mind?" And this was in relation to he saw my organizational ability uh because I organized the men on a yard that I went to war with. He saw my entrepreneurial skill set because I ran every hustle you could from the yard in a negative sense. in a negative sense. It was all illegal, but you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and then he saw my intellectual acumen because he would read things that I had written in a prison newspaper. And that's when he just pulled me to the side and he was like, like you run a yard like you're, you know, I wasn't a just to be clear, I wasn't like a model prisoner. Like I was drug trafficking, ordering hits. I was in fullon wars on the yard. And he still saw something that was there. And he literally asked me that question, what else can you do with your mind?

Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. That's a question I'm asking myself at 53. You know, this is why I've been able to accomplish the many things that I've done. I'm still entertaining that little kid, you know, that that 19year-old boy, that 22 year old, that 25 year old. And what I would hope is that, you know, your audience takes away is that hidden the prisons has no hidden prisons have no age limit. uh healing has no age limit. That little kid inside of us deserves to be loved. And so those are the conversations that I that I would have.

It's like, yeah. Did you ever hear that from anyone when you were, you know, in your 20s about the kid inside of you deserves to be loved? loved? loved? It wasn't until I was probably in my 30s. I ran across this random book. I worked in a law library and we would get people would donate books all the time. Like literally like your books are probably being donated, which is super important. Uh my books are being donated now uh in the in the prisons and sometime they would just get these box of books and they wouldn't pass them out.

I come across this book called House of Healing. Houses of Healing. And I started reading this book and one of the things that struck me is it talked about resolving conflict by being able to see the little kid inside the person you're in argument with. That changed how I oriented myself at toward the end of my incarceration. And that's the first time I was like, man, this is like you can you can you can love on yourself when you see the kid and other people. And once I once I started seeing that in other men, I was like, "Oh, this is a temper tantrum." Like, he doesn't want beef.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's literally having a temper tantrum because he can't name the thing. Ah, he can't articulate that whatever happened between us caused him anxiety or triggered some unhealed trauma, but I can see it as clear as day. And it literally changed how I oriented myself in that environment. And you know, I was able to resolve conflict instantaneously instantaneously instantaneously by being empathetic and compassionate while still being firm in who I am. Sure. Wow. But I don't have to tear you down or destroy you or stab you or blungeon you in order for us to arrive at something that honors both of our humanity.

humanity. humanity. Wow. Wow. Wow. And that showed up in work life. It shows up in my social impact work today. It's like I'm whenever I see an adult having a moment, I'm like, "Oh, they're just having that that temper tantrum." Wow. Wow. Wow. But it doesn't go away. Yeah. like that trauma that we experienced early in childhood and how how we learn to resolve that, it doesn't go away. It just comes up differently. Yeah. And some people, you know, they might not have had the same traumas of you, but they still don't know how to deal with it.

Absolutely. Even if it wasn't as extreme, right, of their trauma, it's still we don't need to judge how much someone's had trauma or how little they had trauma, they've experienced it. They don't know how to process it. Our minds has no judgment with trauma, right? And that's the thing I think culturally we get into comparative analysis. That's just the way we tell stories in the world. But trauma is trauma. trauma. trauma. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and that it doesn't you don't have to go, you know, that's what the subtitle is about the hidden prisons.

Mhm. prisons. Mhm. prisons. Mhm. Um there's even one part where I talk about well-intended prisons where it's like you don't even realize this thing is holding you back because on the outside it doesn't look harmful, but it's like you in a relationship, you break up with this person, but you know, like we're broken up, but we'll remain friends, but you say you want to get married and you want to have a relationship, but you have a whole thing that's anchoring your anchor to because you haven't cut it loose.

Yes. You know, it's the helicopter parent. No helicopter parent is setting out like, "Hey, I'm going to be a bad parent." They think that what they're doing is protecting, but it's preventing their child from building resilience. You know, it's it's preventing them from making choices, etc. It's well intended, you know, and so that's the hidden part of all of these things where we we start to compare ourselves to others experience. And we we were talking earlier where 19 years is no different to me than 19 minutes of losing your freedom, your dignity, being abused, whatever that brings up.

Like you don't have to compare it. Like hard is hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so our the way that our minds work, it's not looking at the package that is delivered in all our mind is saying, "Hey, something doesn't feel right. This isn't right. and my I'm going to react to that. Right. And so if you if you don't even you don't even have to compare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we've all gone through enough in life to where it shapes how we think about our experiences.

100%. Chris, when did you feel like you were able to start doing therapy or any type of therapy to support your journey? When was that? I mean, I had some therapy when I was in high school and so I was already like hip to it. I was like hip to the idea. Yeah. And so it was just always something that I pursued um when I was locked up at the time. Um we had access to Pell Grants and we could go to college. I believe uh same thing happened for Shanka.

And uh so that was a real important thing that was like a lifeline for me in prison to be able to take classes from professors that would come in and um yeah so I so I took a lot of psychology classes as well as philosophy and then I've just kept I've just kept it up ever since then. So you know I like to go to therapy. I like to also listen to podcasts that are you know read books and all that kind of thing wherever I can learn emotional intelligence tools.

Where do you where do you feel like both of you would be if you didn't do therapy after your experiences? experiences? experiences? I think that there's such a there's such a a strong impulse to um react as opposed to respond consciously to the all the things that are around us. And I think that based on the amount of even things that happened to me when I was young, but also from prison, you know, like I would just be um I would be violent and unruly, reactive.

reactive. reactive. Yeah. Reactive. And so that's really like that's one of the the biggest things that I'm that I'm conscious to is trying to um learn to respond from an intentional mindful place. And uh yeah, like I said earlier, I think that this is one of the big problems we have as as men is that uh is that combination of uh not having those tools uh to overcome those traumas and learn how to respond. Where do you feel like you'd be if you didn't have some type of therapeutic expression to heal from the past?

Yeah. I So, I've done I've had a a couple of therapists since I've been out of prison and neither of them worked for me. Uh largely because I think they just became so infatuated that I survived solitary confinement like tell me more. I kind of became their therapist and I was like y'all should be was like I was like y'all should be paying me for this. Um but but I I I will say the the the self-practice of healing healing healing um you know doing the hard work being able to you know again I was lucky I was literate you know so I was able to read a lot of books about trauma uh undoing trauma unpacking it you know figuring out these tools that I can use meditation mindfulness journaling u being in community with you know people who were where I wanted to be in my life in terms of how I wanted to feel about myself.

about myself. about myself. Uh people who had a healthy orientation, I would probably be like the other, you know, 70% of people who end up back in prison. You know, society is very unforgiving. unforgiving. unforgiving. Is it 70% of people that get out of prison go back? End up back in prison. Absolutely. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. It is. Um, so I'm sure I would I would be counted amongst those those people who went back because one, society is not as forgiving as we would like to believe.

Um, any of us who've made anything of our lives post incarceration is because we probably had a type of determination and grit to do it the right way. um that superseded our ability to to fall into the depression trap and the the hey I'm a failure, you know, all the things that society is constantly telling you. Um you know, even going back to shame, you know, I I forgot about this piece. Anytime I have to fill out an application and it asks, have you ever been convicted of a felony?

You know, that it brings back like, man, when does this stop? You know, when does when is enough enough? you know. Um, so I think I think without without without Yeah. I already had the punishment and now I'm still being punished even though I did my time. Yeah. So, so, so we're in a society that doesn't, you know, think kindly about those of us who want to follow the law. It's hard to get employment, housing. I mean, it's 44,000 collateral consequences of having a felony. And so, yeah, I think without the, you know, therapeutic outlook I've had on life, you know, the many failures I've had this side of incarceration, not the the times I wasn't called back after a great interview, the times I was denied housing, the times I was denied insurance, and like the list goes on and on and on where those things can be very much like a trigger that that says to you nothing I do will ever be enough.

Wow. Right, Wow. Right, Wow. Right, man. How do you overcome that then? Yeah. So, for me it was realizing that people who've never had a felony have had failure. People who have never had my background have been not have not got the call back. Um that they have to overcome maybe different things, but part of this journey of in adulthood is like you have to fight for what you want in life. And so just that awareness that I'm not alone on this journey and that while it may be specific to my experience, it's not unique in the overall adult experience.

That's helped me to navigate it, you know. Um, and then the I'll say the last part for me was that I never I never I never wanted to never want or desire to ever ever have my life controlled by somebody who's intellectually inferior to me. And like that was just enough for me to be like, you know what? I'm never going back there. I don't know. I'mma I'm going to do whatever it takes to stay out, but I'm know that I'm never going back cuz I never want to be in that situation again.

situation again. situation again. Wow. Wow. Wow. I want to ask about forgiveness because I think forgiveness is a big part to everyone's life. And I think when we don't learn to forgive, specifically ourselves, we are in a some type of a prison. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Internally. So there's forgiving others, you know, the people that maybe influenced you in your environment, friends, family, outsiders who influenced you to become who you were to get into that space. But then there's forgiving yourself, which I think can be even harder.

Was it harder to forgive the people around you or to forgive yourself? yourself? yourself? And what allowed you to start forgiving in general? I'll let you start. I I probably it's harder for me to forgive myself myself myself um than to forgive other people um what allowed me to forgive myself. Have you have you allowed yourself to forgive yourself? forgive yourself? forgive yourself? I think to some degree. Yeah. And I think it's a just a process that keeps on going. on going. on going. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think continuing to do the work of, you know, living intentionally uh uh uh and and and putting myself doing good habits, you know, all the same habits that I was working on prison in in prison um and putting myself in service to people and in positive affirming relationships and maintaining that. I think all that's helping me to forgive myself. What about you, Shaka? Forgiveness is the big one. Um, so my my journey to forgiveness has been this long, incredible, winding road. And what I what I will say to to your audience is this.

this. this. When you ask the universe to give you something, something, something, the universe is going to test that. And when you proclaim to the world that this is what I believe, your belief is going to be tested in a way that will blow your mind. But if you trust the process, it'll unlock everything you've ever thought possible for your life. Forgiveness for me was that a couple of years ago, I got a letter from the man who shot me when I was 17 years old.

years old. years old. I saw this. This is crazy. It was. It was. It was. So, someone shot you at 17? At 17. And then 16 months later, I shot and tragically caused the man's death. But you didn't know who shot you. I never saw his face. It was a 30-cond argument, escalated to gunfire. He shot, drove off. I ran and went to the hospital. And all I heard was rumors of who this guy was. I was out after I got out of the hospital. I'm on a hunt trying to find this guy.

And eventually the rumor was that he was locked up for killing somebody else. Never knew if it was true or not. Never encountered him in prison. Nearly 30 years later, I get a letter. This guy encountered one of my books in prison. He's reading a story of me talking about being shot. He realized he was the shooter. Wow. He writes me a letter apologizing and saying to himself that he took on the responsibility of the life decision I made that led me to prison and he felt partially responsible for that.

Wow. Wow. Wow. At the time he wrote me he was in prison. prison. prison. When I got the letter what it did is it triggered the old me. I gonna have this guy taken care of done done done for literal nothing tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow instantaneously instantaneously instantaneously gosh gosh gosh and I was like oh this is how the universe tests what you really believe oh man that's heavy and so what I did is I sat down and I started to write him back and then I decided that I didn't owe him that letter because if forgiveness for me was really about me so instead what I did is I looked him up on the computer.

I just wanted to see what this guy who had been a ghost in my life, what he looked like. Saw what he looked like. That ghost went away. And I decided to write my mother because I had this experience where I thought I had forgiven my mother for the abuses and all the things as a child. And what I did is that I told her I forgave her because it was a noble thing and it was all about my ego. But you didn't feel it. I didn't feel it.

But I also attached something to it is that now she has to change and become this mother this mother this mother that I desire. You put a condition on it. Condition. Condition. Condition. Forgiveness with a condition really isn't forgiven. isn't forgiven. isn't forgiven. It's not forgiveness, right? And so that's when I realized that true forgiveness forgiveness forgiveness is really about letting go of a moment. And that person doesn't have to change. They don't have to be receptive. They don't have to be anything. If you desire to be free, then you have to free yourself.

And when I did that, it just changed the dynamic of my relationship with my mother where I feel more like the parent now. And the power and the beauty of it is that I get a chance to love on that little girl and her who was hurt. Wow. Wow. Wow. That turned into the hurt mother who hurt her kids. Yeah. Yeah. And you may still not enjoy it or you may wish there was a different scenario where I wish my mother could be this way. I wish my mother I wish I wasn't parenting my mom.

You know, you could still have that feeling and also love and accept her and forgive her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and grieve the loss of a life you wish you could have with her. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And also love her for who she is at the same time. same time. same time. And re just reimagine a new way of being. being. being. Yes. And when you let go, fully let go of that thing that you're holding on, life reorients itself. And whether that person is in your life or not, you're not carrying this albatross around your neck that you beat yourself up with over and over.

You know, like I I learned with my mother that my mother had went through so many things in her young life. And I was like, "Oh, this is the universe is is delivering on everything that I said I wanted." And it's and it's really putting it front and center. You know, you want to be compassionate and empathetic and you talk about being able to love on the child. Well, here, look at your mother. Look at her journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look at her journey. Can you handle what she's went through and see still see her as a full human being even though she hurt you when you was a kid?

That's the power of like wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's the thing both of you struggle with the most after 33 plus years inward? inward? inward? What do I struggle with the most? Um, in in regards to what what's still what's still something you feel like you struggle with trying to overcome or letting go of that's maybe holds you back from time to time or or or you wish you didn't have to hold on to or you wish you weren't still reliving or experiencing or Yeah, I think that um this one of these uh questions when I went to jail, this like code of what it is to be a man, this kind of you know one of these questions.

It always felt unresolvable to me. to me. to me. Um, which is there's no answer. Well, this this well, it's like the dilemma of nonviolence, right? Like I think that's a very difficult um spot to to find the answer to for me. Um, yeah. Cuz like, you know, when I was in jail, I remember distinctly feeling like this is, you know, being between a rock and a hard place because if somebody, you know, threatens you or disrespects you, then you either have to um meet that, you have to escalate that with violence violence violence or you have to retreat from it.

And either of those choices both can have very profound consequences. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Interesting. And I know that there's like, you know, great thinkers that have articulated the nonviolent like, you know, like maybe you can't do that in prison like you could in in outside of prison. Maybe it's different. I don't know. Yeah. But I I still think it's something that that like, you know, we carry with us, you know, and it's and uh um now maybe I'm doing myself a disservice by, you know, maybe I'm nitpicking cuz cuz I mean I don't I'm I'm not violent, you know, obviously, but it's just, you know, it's just trying to kind of find like consistency, more consistency of being feeling peaceful and having harmonious harmonious harmonious responses like daytoday.

today. So, yeah. yeah. yeah. I don't know if it's really a struggle, but it's something that I'm conscious of. of. of. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Is there anything you still struggle with today? Um, Um, Um, I I think one of the one of my biggest the biggest things that I've been unpacking unpacking unpacking over the years is like there can be an emotional hardness to me. me. me. Hardness. Hardness. Hardness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not a not a tenderness sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. where it's very it can be very just kind of like I can cut things off and keep it moving and not even not even blink and I don't I don't like that you know so I'm I'm constantly working on that part of of of my healing journey.

Um, and I think that's probably the biggest one is that, you know, prison prison hardens you. Like you don't, you know, it's it's it's one of the things, you know, I tell people I'm like, you know, Chris and I, I think we look like two lovely gentlemen and you'll probably have great time hanging out with us. And then there's a language that only he and I understand. That's real. That's true. That's like you can the way that you orient to the world is very different than what people would imagine when they see the smile and they see the laughter and they see the joy and then there's this other part of us that comes from that experience.

that experience. that experience. And part of it is that you have to disassociate from your body so much while you're in there. Wow. Wow. Wow. um you know the the first arrest and someone strips you naked like there there's there's in order to normalize that level of depravity and that dehumanization you have to disconnect disconnect disconnect and then you're in this very volatile environment where there's constant violent eruptions and you have to start emotionally hardening yourself toward oh this is just life on the yard this is just what It is, you know, a guy get into an argument over $2 that leads to bloodshed.

Oh, this is a normal day in prison. And so when you experience that for year after year after year after year, it hardens you emotionally in a way to where the work that it takes to embrace your humanity and to be compassionate and empathetic when you see someone that is hurting or who's been hurt or, you know, someone who's having that, you know, that that adult temper tantrum that's directed towards do and to still be able to love that person and not just cut them off and be like move on and not just go back into that old way of being.

of being. of being. Yeah. Where they no longer exist. Right. And so that is the toughest part of of anything else that's been hard is like the toughest part has been that. And how I've, you know, saw for it is like, you know, one being a mentor to young people, being a dad, uh, being a husband, um, having my little, I have little neighbors, they're like, they're twins. They're like three, and then the oldest boy is like five, and they love me. I think it's the hair, but they like if I'm outside and they see me and they just run up and they're like, you know, and so it's those things that that I I embrace and I intentionally seek out to kind of soften that that part of me.

Um, but that's tough, you know, it's tough to like let that go. I mean, how do you I mean, speaking of fatherhood, both of you guys are parents. How do you two kids each? How do you both deal with being fathers, you know, to to younger kids who learn about your experience who like how do you navigate those conversations but also parenting without feeling shame or fear for your children for their lives? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How have both of you navigated parenthood? parenthood? parenthood? Yeah. I think for me it's it's been um Dr.

Safali. Dr. Safali. Dr. Safali. Yeah. Her her book on conscious parenting. parenting. parenting. She's great. She's great. She's great. And one of the things that she just talked about is like your children aren't your children, right? It's like reminded me of Khalil Jab's the prophet. And it's kind of like we just get to bear witness to their lives, you know. I constantly remind myself that he has his own journey, you know. Um, and then what I've done as a dad is I've just been intentional about sharing, hey, here's what my life was.

Here's where I come from. What if that's really painful for your kids? What if it's really hard for them like to hear that you love you, they care about you? How do you navigate that? I think kids need to hear hard things, you know. I think it builds resilience. I think they'll be fine. Um I think we live in a culture now that's kind of soft protecting them. protecting them. protecting them. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, with with my son, I was like, well, here here's where here's what happened where I knew that I had to tell him the story.

kindergarten. kindergarten. kindergarten. I'm taking him to school. Literally like the night prior, Oprah Winfrey was on CNN with Van Jones and Aver Dubernete. Aver Dubernete. Aver Dubernete. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. And Van asked her a question about her relationship with me. Really? Really? Really? And she got so excited and she was like, "Oh my god, I read his book, etc., etc." I get to the school the next day. I'm standing there dropping my son off. one of the parents comes up. It was like, "Oh my god, I heard Oprah Winfrey talking about you last night on the news." And it was a moment where I should have felt like pride, but I instantaneously thought about my son.

Cuz I was like, "Oh, parents are like, "Hey, your classmates's dad was on the news and by the way, he was in prison for this." for this." for this." And I instantaneously was like, "You know what? know what? know what? He's in kindergarten. I'm going just tell him what it is in that language." And then over the years, I've just continued to do it. And like now, he probably can tell my story better than me because he I bring him to the events. I bring him into the other side of it.

So, he used to come to my job where I work with men and women coming out of prison and jails. He goes into community events where I'm talking about gun violence and the things, none of which his life looks like. Um but because that has happened consistently on his journey, he's now matured, you know, to the point where we can have real discussions about it, you know, and I just think that's what, you know, whether it's any other thing, right? Is is with with kids is, you know, is sex, is internet, is all these things they're going to like we can't we can't protect them the way maybe our parents could have protected us a little bit cuz it's just so invasive, right?

and they have so much access. So, I just think as a as a parent, parent, parent, you know, figure out the right language, you know, consult with professionals who understand that part, you know, uh reading Dr. Spotty's book was great for me and and some of her stuff, but I I think we're in a in a world where we have to beat the internet to our children, get ahead of it. Yeah, we got we have to. You have you dealt with it, Chris? Yeah. I mean, I have two children, so my oldest is 28, my youngest is 16.

I think trying to be um really human with both my kids and and trying to have really honest relationships with them. Um reading books, getting advice from different parents, but really from all the lessons I've learned from therapy. Like I think parenting that relationship I have with my kids. I see it as just like I see it as an opportunity to be um honest, to be vulnerable with them, to open a door and let let them know that they can share anything they want with me.

And I just I take it as like a huge responsibility that I want to be present in their lives and I want to um show up for them in in the most loving way that I can and have a close relationship or they feel they can tell me anything. me anything. me anything. Let me just I'm curious about both of you guys purpose since like the moment you knew you were getting out of jail. First off, can you share what it was like either getting that moment that you knew when you were going to get out and the day you got out?

Can you both share that feeling? Were you scared? Were you excited? Was it like confusing? What was that like first? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to hear Chris. I'm always curious like how other guys experience it like Yeah. Well, you remember you were there when I got out. Yeah. But what was it like for you? I mean, maybe it's exciting. Maybe it's fear. I don't know. It's like could be a number of things. It was it was incredible. Um coming home, you know, we we got together.

The siblings were all at the house. They all came back from their different places and uh both of our parents brought me in. I remember Lewis was there and I came in and we ordered a pizza. We all cried, you know, all of our siblings, our four siblings, we all like we made a sign like welcome home crazy. Yeah. And Yeah. And Yeah. And what was it like for you just like even just getting out for the first time, you know? know? know? It's like It's like It's like Yeah, it was it was uh it was exhilarating.

It was also um it was a lot of emotions. It was a big relief, but it was also like, and I think I've heard Shaka speak about this, there was a period of years um where I always felt like I was worried about being out of place as they say, right? And you spoke about this too, like always on tip shows and like wondering or you're walking down the street and somebody walks and they come close to you and you and if they would have done that in the yard.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You like that's disrespect, but they're not even think about it. There's different rules and you're so you're like const like I was constantly triggered when I first got out like I had to stop myself from being like super aggressive cuz when you're in the yard you learn to carry yourself in a certain way and you stare people down and you like like like you have to like huff up and be like I had developed certain ways of being and communicating and of carrying myself and uh to try to I couldn't just change that right away, you know, and so I was really triggered uh on the street when I first got on the street But of course I had all these other great emotions too like obviously right you know like when getting home feeling that freedom was was wonderful and then um but you had asked I think you also asked about what was the vision or what was the purpose yeah what was did you have a purpose yeah yeah yeah after like once you knew you were going home home home did you have a vision for your life or were you just like I'm not sure yet and I'm assuming having a vision and a purpose purpose purpose is going to support support you not being the 70% statistic that goes back to jail, I'm assuming.

But yeah, well, you know, before I got locked up, my purpose was to be a great classical violinist. And while I was locked up, that kind of changed. And I had a vision about becoming a great jazz violinist. For people that don't know the story, you were classically trained violinist for most of your life, very gifted, but then you went to jail for four and a half years and joined the prison band and learned lots of different type of musical, musical, musical, right, right, right, skills, right, skills, right, skills, right, with inmates who taught you funk and rap and blues and jazz and hip-hop and soul and R&B and all these different things.

So, you learn jazz in jail. jail. jail. Yeah. which is pretty fascinating. So his greatest musical teacher No, he had great musical teachers growing up classically. classically. classically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to expand creatively, his greatest musical teachers were in jail, right? right? right? Which made him the musician he is today and the teacher and the educator today. I fell in love with the music, but I also fell in love with like the people that showed me the music and like the culture that was behind it and the feeling that I had of being in the room during the church service and making music in in these other ways and it was like an insight into it's like you're looking at the world through this window and then you know for years and you turn around it's like whoa this is whole other thing other thing other thing which was and uh you know it was also appalachin music too right you but especially a lot of black American music and black American culture.

I mean that was just a a eye openener for me as a kid a kid a kid you know and um it was different times back then than it is now but so but it it would be proper to say it was an awakening for me but that's also a little bit awkward for me to talk about because I mean just that whole experience because I'm sensitive to wanting to be uh respectful of what it is and not to be posturing around the whole idea. You know what I mean?

And so, but but that's part of why the vision that I had was important to me actually actually actually because it's like I want to honor what happened here. happened here. happened here. And so, I don't even need to talk about it to honor it. I can play music and because the people that can recognize that it there's no word that needs to be spoken really, really, really, you know, and so I mean before you go on that, what would you say to that Shaka? Because I've always encouraged him to speak more about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I should stop telling him to do that. do that. do that. But I think when he speaks about it from the experience of learning this style of music, music, music, from some of his greatest mentors in prison, prison, prison, I feel like he's honoring those men as well well well while educating the world about those lessons. But lessons. But lessons. But again, no one wants to listen to the younger brothers. So I don't know what what you think. Maybe and maybe it's, you know, in his own time or maybe it makes sense for him not to do that.

No, I I almost think there's like almost two different things. There's the musicianship and artistry is what I'm hearing. It's like there's a sacred exchange that happen and there's a protective element around that if I'm not mistaken. That's kind of what I feel or what I what I sense and I I truly I truly I truly get that. And then I also think about the stories that go untold um and that if they are told it helps so many people, right? M uh I'm very protective of my mentors who guided me to to reading and who guided me to writing.

And what I what I knew is that I wanted to honor these men and that I mention their name in rooms that they can't even imagine themselves ever being in. Um because what it speaks to is the humanity of any of us who have walked those halls of of you know halls of shame and and and the punitive halls that we existed in you know and so I think there's there's a um a beauty and a magic to holding on to that sacred and then I think there's a power and responsibility with how do we articulate that in a way that really helps people see the humanity right humanity right humanity right that our galvanizes in an environment where where where sometimes and often times it's the only hope that people have.

You know, it's the only light that we have is those moments when you do a show for the prison and you see people just like let loose, right? right? right? And the tension goes down and it's no night fights and they're just like, "Oh my god, to see that, you know, and so I think it's a duality there." Um, but all things in their own time, you know, and and I think playing the music has been I mean, I'm so intrigued by your art and and so appreciative that I get a chance to bear witness to it and and your journey of how you got to it.

So, I think that's the the power. Yeah. And it's probably it's not that I don't want to I appreciate Thank you for that first of all. And it's not that I don't want to tell the story, it's what I want to tell it right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it's because it feels like a like a heavy responsibility to talk about. But actually, I mean, the film that we're putting out, I think does do it justice because we tell it through poetry and we've put like so much work into it and that's why that's why that's why and and and maybe if I were to write a book or, you know, you know, the the question you asked about, you know, anticipating getting out and and the purpose part, right?

Yes. Yes. Yes. So I, So I, So I, you know, I started writing in solitary confinement confinement confinement and initially I was writing to save my own life. I call it my right or die moment. And I was journaling. I realized I had never accomplished anything. And so And so And so never finished anything else. Never finished anything. Right. And so the the idea was like just finish one thing and if you finish one thing, you can turn your life around. That just happened to be a book.

And then I was like, "Okay, well now what do I want to do with this with this book, right? What do I want to do with my writing?" That's when I started to write down the most absurdly ambitious, audacious goals ever. I want to be a best-selling author. I want to meet Oprah. Like I would I would just write it down no matter how wild it sounded, right? Um and and then I fell into a bout of depression. You know, we talked earlier about being depressed in prison.

So the prison itself is depressing. Yeah. But there's another level of depression you can get to where you just don't you can't even get off the bunk, you know, and you're just like, I just want to give up. I just I don't want to be in this anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and it was because I realized I had this gift all along and I couldn't give birth to it. Oh, what was the gift that you couldn't give birth to? Writing. Writing. Writing. I had wrote those letters and my family would be like, "Write me more letters.

They're so detailed. I'm not thinking of myself as a writer. You know, Tom asked me what else could I do with my mind. I'm just writing prison articles. I'm not thinking I can become a real writer. And so, but once I I went through that depression, which was probably about a year, I wrote I wrote two books, started a third, fell into depression, couldn't finish it. And then eventually I got on the other side of it. I went back to my books, you know, as a man think of the secret.

All these different books I would go back and read them. and you know Nelson Mandela's you know long road to freedom I would just go back and read these books and read them trying to get my my brain to move forward and then eventually I was like okay finished the third book finished the fourth book started a publishing company in prison the same year I went up for parole which was 2008 published my first book from prison got sued out of prison got denied parole went back up 2009 got denied parole again parole again parole again and I almost gave gave up.

You know, at that point, I had 17 years in. I knew how to do time. Uh, no, actually, I had 18 years and I knew how to do time and I almost gave up and then I went back and how I felt when I got the news that I was getting out. I'll never forget, I came in the unit, this officer, she was joking with me. She was like, "Hey, I got something big to tell you." Me and her had kind of a flirty relationship. So, I'm like, "I don't know what it is." She was like, "Meet me down at the cubicle." Went down to the cubicle.

She was like, "They're letting you go home." Wow. And I was just like, "Wo." And so I went around to the counselor. I wanted to ask the counselor, but I didn't want to kind of, you know, reveal that she had already told me. So I go in, I'm asking the counselor some random stuff. Hey, can you check my account? And she was like, "Oh, actually, you're you're leaving. You'll be transferring in a couple of weeks. You're going to Detroit for the re-entry program. you're going home.

home. home. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I was like, yo, this is crazy. So, like, this is real. This is real. So, I go back around to the cubicle. Yard opens up. My brother-in-law was there and a friend from our neighborhood, they were both there serving time. I went out. I'm walking and talking in the yard with him. I'm like, "Yo, I think I'm going home. They said it. I don't got the paperwork yet, though." And so, we walk and talk and you know, they're excited for me.

I'm excited, you know, and come back in. And when they passed out mail call, they gave me the paper. They was like, "You're going home June 22nd, 2010." 2010." 2010." Wow. Wow. Wow. One day after my 38th birthday. Wow. Wow. Wow. And so I literally called my dad. My dad answered the phone and I was like, "Dad, they I got my parole." And my dad let out a guttural cry, a rejoice that he had held pent up for 19 years. 19 years. 19 years. And it was like, holy smokes, you know.

And so I knew when I got out, my plan was, I'm gonna get out. I'm g hustle these books out of the trunk of the car. Get out. I'm going just sell these novels and eventually I I'll make it. And so I get parrolled. They take me from the prison to the parole office. I get to the parole office and I'm inside and I literally asked the lady, "Hey, can I go outside?" Really? And she was like, "What are you talking about? like you're free. You go where you want to go.

Wow. And I was like, "Yo, I'm still ask permission." So, oh, So, oh, So, oh, I get there and I'm outside and uh my son's mom comes to, you know, pick me up at the time and she has the books with her and I sold my first book in a parking lot. parking lot. parking lot. Literally, I saw the first book in the parking lot. I still have It's the funniest picture. I got on these big baggy shorts that were probably from the '9s, an oversized t-shirt, and I sold that first book 15 years ago.

I've been selling books ever since. Um, and so when I when I came home, that's what I I thought that was my purpose was just to sell these novels. And I ended up writing writing my wrongs after prison. in that book skyrocketed. But I wrote it for that reason where I would go and do these talks and people would say, "You don't sound like someone who's been in prison." And they meant it as a compliment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, I just left some of the most brilliant scholars, some of the greatest legal minds, some of the greatest writers, thinkers, comedians, you name it.

I those were the men I served time with. That's what inspired me to write writing my wrongs. I wanted people to understand that whatever landed us there was not the defining part of who we all are. We're still humans. We're dreamers, builders, doers. We're all these things. And to tell that story and so once that happened, that book came out, people would come up with me and they would just tell me all type of stories. And in the last couple of years, I've really been questioning what has been my purpose all along.

I thought it was the sale of novels. I haven't done a novel deal yet, deal yet, deal yet, you know. I thought it was prison re-entry. That's really not what that was about for me. That was about my friends are incarcerated. What I realized is that my purpose in life is to help people find the door to their own personal freedom. freedom. freedom. Like that's what I know with certainty. There's like there's a lot of things that I don't know. Um, and there's a few things that I know with certainty.

And one of them is I am searching what I'm here to do. Wow. In the world and that can be expressed through different avenues through books or through work or through speaking or all things. things. things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting that you got clear with that purpose. And and I think we're going back to depression talking about how depressing prison is. But I think most people are living in depression in their own prison. And I think a lot of people are depressed because they are discounting themselves or doing a disservice from actually expressing their truest gifts.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And finding their purpose. And they know, like you said, you knew there was more inside of you, but you weren't doing it. You weren't accomplishing things. You weren't finishing things. finishing things. finishing things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that depression like captured you. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think a lot of people are depressed because they know they're doing a disservice to what they truly want to be doing in the world. Yeah. And so purpose side of things, how do you I mean both of you have a purpose now.

It's so funny you say that you have so many synchronicities and similarities because because because absolutely absolutely absolutely I have vivid memories of Chris after he got out of prison. He made a uh his first album. I think it was a CD called 10 yard. I think it was your first one, right? It was your first album called second second one. I mean you have what almost 20 albums 19 albums. Wow. Wow. Wow. But his second album was called 10 yard from his experiences in the yard.

And I remember him doing these little bar, restaurant, clubs right afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And taking his CDs and just handing them to people and selling them one by one. You sold books one by one. Absolutely. You were both expressing your art after jail. jail. jail. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And doing it one by one, trying to make a difference and an impact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And today both of you, you know, Chris has taught over a thousand schools teaching music education, expressing yourself through music. He has a camp called the creative strings workshop.

workshop. workshop. It's a yearly camp that brings musicians in from around the world and to express themselves creatively. You do this through speaking, through writing, through workshops, through all these different things. So you guys are both doing your purpose in a beautiful way and I'm grateful for that. that. that. Um, but a lot of people I feel like don't even know what their purpose is or even if they do know it, they discount themselves from actually pursuing it. Yeah. They live in fear and that's a prison of itself in my mind.

Absolutely. And I, you know, I think that's what, you know, if if people take nothing else from this this conversation, conversation, conversation, uh, what I would hope they would take from it is life as a metaphor. We were we've done the hard work for the audience. Um, and we were we were physically incarcerated. And yet we found a freedom through artistic expression, through meditation, mindfulness, community, all the things that we've talked about. Yes, Yes, Yes, those are things that are replicable and can be easily modeled in any facet of life, you know.

So if there's something that you feel is holding you back, like you have to one, you just have to you have to call that thing what it is. And then you get a chance to decide what are you going to do about it, you know? And and that's the beauty of like, you know, where we started from. We're not supposed to be sitting here based on the statistics. You know, we're sitting here because we made choices in spite of, you know, we made the the hard the harder choices to try to figure out how to do your purpose when you're not getting the big checks.

you know, you're selling two books and two CDs and, you know, three people are showing up to your show and you got to perform like it's 3,000 or, you know, two people show up to your your book signing and and yet you got to keep making just one step after the next. And for for me, it's like you count all those victories and you acrew enough of them and you'll see life really, you know, it's just like training, right? It's like you lift, you start to get stronger and you're like, "Oh, okay.

I'm I'm getting some action, but you got to be consistent. Yes. consistent. Yes. consistent. Yes. To get the strength that you desire, you know? So, know? So, know? So, yeah, life is metaphor. I want you guys I'm gonna have you guys Chris is going to play a song and you're going to read a poem here in a second. Before we do that, I want people to know more about your book. It's called How to Be Free Again. If you want to be free in your life, your life, your life, this is the book for you.

A proven guide to escaping life's hidden prisons. So, make sure you guys check out this book that breaks down a lot of the different strategies on how to create personal freedom from the strategies and techniques that you've talked about as well. well. well. Chris has a a movie called Redemption Time Time Time and you can go to redemptiontime.com. Uh it's touring throughout the US this year and next year and uh people can learn about it by going there and checking it out. But it's a 70minute performance film featuring poet Jimmy Santiago Baka who was Chris's poetry mentor that you found his poetry in jail that really gave you some personal freedom freedom freedom along with Christian house jazzist and two were formerly incarcerated artists who transformed their lives through creativity creativity creativity and through poetry jazz and their own stories they reveal the trauma of incarceration and the redemption power of art.

Something you talked about is the importance of art and mentors in everyone's life. everyone's life. everyone's life. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And by having a place to experience art and express art and having a place to find mentors and connect with mentors is a powerful thing. And I think this conversation, you two are powerful mentors for anyone watching and listening right now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if anyone's struggling in isolation, I highly encourage you reach out to a Boys and Girls Club if you're a teen. Reach out to local mentors if you're an adult.

Seek mentors online. Read books. Watch movies that support your critical thinking, but find mentors and express your art. your art. your art. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've got a couple final questions at the end, but I want you guys to Chris has got a song that he wrote that's in this film. this film. this film. So, I want people to hear this. Uh Shaka is going to read a poem that you've never read before. So, this is a first time experience of you guys performing together.

performing together. performing together. Okay. So, this is a um a poem written by Jimmy Santiago Baka, and I wrote the music to go behind a lot of his poetry in our film. It's called Redemption Time. And this is like the redemptive moment at the end where uh Jimmy gets out. So, the film has like, you know, 10 to 12 different like episodes over 70 minutes, and each one of them address like different themes of manhood, trauma, and all these kinds of things. But this is like the uh the uh the redemptive moment.

So, okay. Uh I thought it would be cool to have Shaka read the poem and try to do my best to to kind of truly on it, you know. Thank you. I'll try to render it here with just the film. So, yeah. When I came out of prison, I didn't have a plan to go back to crime. crime. crime. I came out of prison with one gift. And I'm about to tell you what that gift is. is. is. Not a gun, not a criminal, but a gift.

I'm offering this poem. I'm offering this poem to you since I have nothing else to give. Keep it like a warm coat when the winter comes to cover you. Or like a pair of thick socks that cannot fight through. I love you. I got nothing else to give you. So, it's a pot full of yellow corn to warm your belly in the winter. It's a scarf to wrap up around your head on windy days. I love you. Keep it. Treasure this as you would if you were lost.

leaning direction in the wilderness wilderness wilderness that life becomes when you're mature. Tucked away like a cabin in the trees, you come knocking. I'm going to answer you. I'll give you directions. directions. directions. I'll let you warm yourself by this fire. I'll let you rest by this fire. I'll make you feel safe because I love you. And this is all I got to give. I ain't got nothing else. And all anyone needs to live and to go on living inside when the world outside no longer cares if you live or die.

Remember. Remember. Remember. Remember. I love you. Yeah, Yeah, my brother. my brother. my brother. So good, man. So good. Thank you. Thank you. you. you. And thanks to Jimmy Santiago Baka for that, that, that, man. Big shout out to Jimmy. It's incredible writing and such a gift. Wow. Wow. Wow. And I love you. Wow. Wow. Wow. I love you, man. This has been Wow. Like so cool to meet you today, man. What a treat. treat. treat. Likewise, brother. Good. What's been the big What opened up for both of you while playing that with each other after this conversation and after, you know, what you've talked about in your book and what you've gone through for 10 years in your movie?

What opened up for both of you during that moment? moment? moment? Oh man, that this is my brother. This is my brother, man. And I'm super proud of you and what you're doing in the world and honored to know that our stories are, you know, trusted, you know, and and and your art is, you know, giving birth to new listeners that'll hear our stories and, you know, it'll help a lot of people. So, wow. So, wow. So, wow. I feel this true kindred spirit and brotherhood.

Um, you know, we've been through something that most people can't comprehend. comprehend. comprehend. Um, but we both know that language both spoken and unspoken. And so to be able to share this moment with you, man, is enriching my life. So, thank you. thank you. thank you. Thank you, my brother. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's powerful. That's powerful. That's powerful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Beautiful, man. Beautiful, man. Beautiful, man. What opened up for you, Chris? What was uh during playing that? playing it and hearing shotgun and just doing this experience together.

experience together. experience together. Yeah. It felt it felt it felt great. It brings me back to what you were talking about because when you're in jail, you make do. make do. make do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, absolutely. And I was like, I'm not going to let any of that stuff like I got the violin. We're just going to make this happen, you know? So, yeah. One take first time. Beautiful. It's powerful. It's powerful, man. I can feel it, man. I can feel it. Wow. That's cool.

That's cool. But but also, yeah, I mean, really getting to meet you and I've listened to a bunch of your stuff and heard you talk, but getting to speak to you and be with you in the room, it feels like a homecoming for me, it's it gives me a lot of openings openings openings in my heart about how I can lean heavier into telling my own story because I think you do it so well. Thank you. And um so it it feels like a great encouragement for me um and and and not only to share my story, but to step into more community with more folks that are that are doing this work and and just to lean into it more more more uh the fullest expression of who I am, getting clearer on whatever that purpose is and how it could show up.

So thank you, brother, for for opening it up for me. Of course, I've been wanting both of you guys to connect for a while. I've been telling you guys about each other for a while. while. while. I'm curious. You both gave a piece of advice to your younger self at 19. If you could, I wonder if you could both give one piece of advice to what you see in another. another. another. What do you see in Chris that you see he should keep continuing to do or encouragement or encouragement or encouragement or Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I would say my my um my my words of wisdom and and take them as you as you may. Um, you have such an incredible powerful gift. Um, and coupling that gift with a a unbelievable story of reimagining a life for yourself. Like there's power in that. Uh, there's power in it, not just for you, but for others. And you get a chance to really help other people salvage their lives, reimagine their lives, and think about those who are brothers and sisters who we've left behind.

um and knowing that they're counting on us and and looking forward to us being able to tell their stories and the telling of our own stories. And so what I would encourage is is to I would what I would encourage is is to really embrace it, you know, embrace the power of your own story to help others. Um, and to make sure in the doing of that, just create space for yourself to breathe and and to, you know, reach out and just, you know, even if it's after talk and say, "Hey, bro, I just got off the stage.

I just need a ear." Uh, I'm here to be able to to hold space for you. And there's many others who would be honored to hold space for you. And um and I just encourage you to keep imagining different ways to tell that story story story um and to tell many stories. And obviously, you know, we'll collab on some stuff, but I would just say lean into it. You know, like you you've earned it. You've earned the right to tell the story. Um you've got the stripes, you know, you got the wounds, you got the things.

And so now there's an opportunity to, you know, relieve some of that by helping others never have to endure it. And so that's the power that you hold in your hand and your violin and your story, your voice. And lastly, I would just say lean on the wisdom of your younger brother. Um, he literally has not got here here here without a dedication to an incredible craft. uh he's built something that's you know monumental uh historical and and his his leadership is proven he has a proven track record and you know there's power in leaning into the little brother who's willing to help you and support you on your journey.

It's a gift. gift. gift. Yeah. Thank you. I think a lot of men are going to see you as somebody who represents strength represents strength represents strength and to sh that you get to be able to define define define man manhood for generations of men, right? And I think that you do I think you do a great job of that. you I think you do a great job of that. I think you come across as being very naturally who you are and I think that who you are is very uh multi-dimensional and it's warm and it's soulful and it's impathic and compassionate and also strong.

I think giving men in explicit terms talking about these things, talking about fear, talking about shame, talking about guilt, talking about how do you, you know, respond to the urge to be violent, you know, and kind of this these this these this these this if we say the warped definition of what it is to be a man, you know, how how does a man on the street going to deal with um with um with um um if they're disrespected? How are they going to um address that without putting themselves into a self-destructive cycle without destroying themselves really without throwing out away their own life?

You know, how can how can how I think that you already are doing that. I think you're already speaking to men from that and I already see all that in you and hear it in your stories, but I just want to reflect that back to you and and for you to know that that's how you're received and in case that makes you want to lean into any of those themes in explicit ways. explicit ways. explicit ways. And you might want to ask people that question, that question, that question, your audience, whoever you you want to speak to and whoever you want to hear your message, you might want to ask them, "What are you looking for from me?

What are what are the answers you want me to answer? Cuz I know you get a lot of inspiration for these books. So, I'm already thinking about what's your next book. book. book. Maybe it's going to maybe some of those answers to what you're going to write about is going to come from people in your audience. The advice that both of you guys are giving or what you see in each other is what I want the audience also to know that they should be listening for themselves.

themselves. themselves. Absolutely. Because what you guys are speaking to each other, I'm assuming everyone listening or watching has some type of insecurity or doubt or hidden prison prison prison that's holding them back from pursuing their greatest version of themselves, their gifts, their potential. And there's an unlock for everyone watching, listening, including all three of us. of us. of us. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. To our next level of greatness. Yeah. Which you talked about. Yeah. And so to to wrap things up, uh I'd love for you both to share your three lessons you would leave with the world.

Get to imagine you get to live as long as you want to live from this moment until the last day. And if you could share three lessons, three truths to the world, as simple as they want them to be or profound as wanted them to be, what would those three lessons be? And maybe you've already shared them, so just recap them. recap them. recap them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what is each one of your definition of greatness as well? So three lessons you would leave with the world from your experience and then definition of greatness.

I'll let you start. Three lessons I I would say um the first lesson lesson lesson is to is to is to embrace this magic carpet ride we call life with a spirit of gratitude. Mhm. Uh be thankful literally for every moment you're in, good, bad, and different. Um it just makes life so incredible. incredible. incredible. Show up in service. The second lesson would be show up in service of others. Uh meet a need that someone has without expectation of anything in return and the universe will reward you abundantly uh for your care and consideration.

Um the third thing would be read if you're literate or listen if you're not um to books and stories and journeys of other people. I think that's the one of the most magical gifts that we have is access to stories of others who have walked similar different uh paths than we've walked. you just learn so much um from life through other people's stories. And the third part, what does greatness mean? Um, greatness to me means that there is an acceptance that acceptance that acceptance that inside of us there is a connective tissue that is rooted in whatever the creative force in the world we imagine it to be whether it's God or any other entity or way of being.

But there's a connectedness that we have that is the power source that allows us to imagine and birthed into the world anything that our hearts can dream of and desire. That's what greatness is to me. Like when I think about my journey, where I started from, where I'm at today, is that I lean into this idea that there's a greater power that always wants the best for us. And if we just attach ourselves to that energy, anything is possible. Wow, it's beautiful. Sha Chris, three lessons you would leave behind.

What are those for you? Lean into your relationships and make them as deep as you possibly can. Whether it's your, you know, your kids, your parents, your brother, your siblings, your friends, your students, the people that work with you, your colleagues. Those relationships are the place where you get to really express yourself fully and feel a lot of connection and a lot of purpose. I would say say say constantly work to rearticulate your vision or your purpose for your for your life. If it means every day you think about what am I committed to, what do I want to stand for, what are the things I want to feel, give and what are the things I want to contribute.

Third lesson, I'll go with uh gratitude. As Shaka said, I'll say if if you can try to look for something to be excited about and to feel that joy, like the day that we walked out of prison, um then look for it. Yeah. uh my definition of greatness. I think that just if if I were to to tie it to um some of the men that I've met uh in prison and what I saw in them as greatness was the ability to to really deeply feel whatever it is that you feel, whatever suffering that you feel and whatever fear that you feel, whatever anxiety that you feel, and still be willing to push through uh to try to make the best of yourself that you can't.

I think that's that's a representation of greatness. greatness. greatness. Nice. Well, for everyone watching and listening, I hope this gave them a sense of peace and hopefully a path towards freedom and hopefully gave both of you another connecting element of telling your stories to feel more free, feel more alive and know that both of you are doing your doing an amazing job of being of service to people watching and listening. So, listening. So, listening. So, I acknowledge you both. Thank you guys both for being here.

Thank you so much for having us. Challenge you, bro. Appreciate it. Created a great platform this place to be. be. be. We set back to your baseline. I call it lamb mode. So many men want to be in lion mode or the alpha mode. Is it a lamb mode? Lamb like a l sheep, you know, lamb. And so lion and the lamb. And that's what we teach in the cave of Adelum to bring up the lion when there's predators coming into your pride.