How To Read the Room | Kirstin Ferguson

Key Takeaway

Combat your thinking biases by asking yourself and your team one critical question: 'What am I missing?' This simple practice exposes blind spots by inviting perspectives you haven't considered. When someone challenges your expertise, pause and check for three defensive triggers: 'You're wrong' (formulating counterarguments), 'You're an idiot' (dismissing the messenger), or ego activation (shame/embarrassment). Name the trigger, then genuinely listen. This shift from defensive to curious transforms feedback into fuel for better decisions.

Episode Overview

Dr. Kirsten Ferguson introduces 'blind spotting'—a framework for making better decisions by being honest about our intellectual limits, curious about what we don't know, and flexible enough to change our minds. She explores three thinking traps (the curse of expertise, the pull of hubris, and the illusion of knowledge) and explains how to recognize when we're being 'knowers' versus 'seekers.' The conversation offers practical strategies for managing defensive triggers, disentangling ego from expertise, and actively hunting for biases in our thinking.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How To Read the Room | Kirstin Ferguson from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hearing a voice can change everything. So AT&T wants everyone to gift their voice to loved ones this holiday season because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything. Kirsten Ferguson, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, very basic question to start here. What is blind spotting? Well, you know, we all know we've got blind spots. I mean, that's evident. We we're very aware of that. But I really wanted to think of a verb basically like what could we do about it?

And so, for me, blind spotting is this idea of having the mindsets around being honest about what we do and don't know, being curious to find out more, and then being flexible enough to change our mind. So, it's actually based on some theories, but let's just keep it basic. It's about being honest, being curious, and being flexible. flexible. flexible. So, being honest, being curious, and being flexible. So, that's the top tier list, but in the book, there's a lot of instruction about how to achieve this.

Yeah. Well, you know, I wanted to start us off easy, Dan. We'll ease into it. And, uh, as you can tell from my accent, I'm in [clears throat] Australia. We're at 6:00 a.m., so I have to start off easy and then we can build into it. But yeah, the idea and you and I have spoken before uh about intellectual humility and really that's the foundation of what blind spotting is all about. It's this idea of accepting our intellectual limits. So being okay with not knowing everything and everything around blind spotting is based on this premise.

And for me it's the power of four words, not three, being able to say I don't know yet. And so if you're engaged in blind spotting, you're aware and you're confident that you don't know everything, but you're also confident you're going to be able to find out. And the, as you said in the book, there's a lot of detail about the practices we can do. So being honest is actually about accepting our intellectual limits. As I just said, disentangling our ego. [clears throat] Now, that's one of the hardest things to do.

But if you're wrapped up in how you define what you do, then it's much harder to accept what you don't know. And then hunting for our biases and things like that. And I'm not talking about, you know, biases like uh ethnicity or age or sexuality or gender. This is our thinking biases. So that's what it sort of means to be honest. I I know a lot of people are looking to be less anxious. I know people are looking to be less stressed. I know looking people are looking to be kinder to themselves, but I I don't hear a lot of people talking about God, I really need to work on my intellectual humility.

I would like other people did. Uh so what do you what's the what's the reason to do this work? What's the hook? Well, all I need to ask you, Dan, is when's the last time you made a decision and afterwards you thought, "What the [ __ ] was I thinking?" That is the hook. And I reckon you would have had something yesterday. I mean, I have something every day where I think, "Oh, yeah, I know what I'm doing." And then I think, "Perhaps I should have thought that through a bit more." So, it's all about accepting that we have all of these things in our brain that are telling us, "Yeah, I've done it this way 100 times before and it's worked perfectly, so of course I'm going to get it right the 101st time." And we don't.

or uh you know planning that I'm only going to be in I don't know what's your Home Depot for 5 minutes and it takes 5 hours cuz our planning fallacy is pretty crap. Like it it doesn't matter what the thing is. But what I say to people is if we want to be able to make decisions and I mean I'm using really facitious simple examples but clearly in the world we are so polarized right now that if we were able to say to people you know you believe so fervently in position X.

What if, just imagine, what if there's a different position? And what if perhaps what you believe isn't entirely correct because you haven't taken in another perspective? How would that influence the decisions that we're making every day? So, it's not about trying to sell anything, and I'm not into that anyway. And it's not I don't use the terms intellectual humility cuz I think that carries its own baggage. And you know, it's very hard to say, "Yeah, I'm really humble. I'm really good at my intellectual humility." You know, just ask me.

So this is all about, you know, how can we make better decisions? So in the book, you talk about the difference between seekers and knowowers. Can you unpack that? Yeah. Well, you know, you would have experience where you go into a meeting or you're with someone and they're just genuinely really curious about a challenge you try to face. You know, it's like I' I have no idea how we're going to solve this. I know we will, but I've got no idea right now. I haven't seen this before.

What do you think? You know, Dan, what what's your experience been in this before? or they're really comfortable with not knowing how it's going to be solved and they're genuinely just wanting to collaborate. So they're what I call seekers. The opposite is and we can be both of these at any point in time are the knowowers where you know they don't come in and ask any questions because why would you ask a question when you've already got all the answers. You know they're unaware of their bias that they're coming in believing they've already got it sorted.

they don't ask questions or if they do they're really skilled at backing us into a corner where in the end you just sort of give up and go yeah whatever we'll just do it your way and they need definitive answers so knowers do not like ambiguity now they're the two sort of approaches we can take and both of it we all take it um at different points in time but I don't want to set it up as one being good one being bad because there are times we need knowers and I've certainly had to lead and crisis everyone has at different points and you want a leader that's not standing at the front going look I don't know how we're going to solve this but yeah let's all brainstorm and we'll work it out you need to know what you're going to do and if I'm getting my appendix out I'd like to know that my surgeon has done it at least once before so there's different you know we've got to be able to read a room what do you need but that's the real fundamental difference between knowers and seekers and seekers and seekers another concept in the book is um you have a list of three thinking traps perhaps pitfalls um uh in our uh thinking process.

Uh the the curse of expertise, the pull of hubris, and the illusion of knowledge. Can you walk us through these? And by the way, if you can't remember all three of them and just want to do one at a time, that's also fine. also fine. also fine. Good. Um well, let's focus on the curse of expertise because I actually think that's the one that applies to most of us all of the time. And you know, everyone listening will have heard of the Dunning Krueger effect and we always have a good giggle because it's the idea where, you know, someone who doesn't know very much at all uh thinks that they know a lot.

Um we've also all fell victim to that. But this is the opposite where what the research shows is those of us who are experts in any field and that is all of us. We're all an expert at something. We're really good at knowing when we're right. So, we're really good at knowing when we know what we know, but we are crap at knowing when we should doubt. So, we are really poor at questioning ourselves as to when perhaps we should be getting some extra information or perhaps our knowledge is out of date or perhaps whatever it might be.

And that's this curse of expertise where we are so wrapped up in believing what we know and how we invest in our sense of self is on what I know that it's much harder to question ourselves and that's pretty dangerous especially when you look around the world at the moment people who are so confident so confident that they are right and yet there's others who would just like a little bit of doubt would you know be pretty helpful and healthy. Yes. Uh I heard this expression from one of the guests on the show and I can't remember who but the there are so many people who are confidently wrong.

Yeah, I know. I would love them to calibrate their confidence. Wouldn't that be nice just to you know work out whether or not perhaps just perhaps and you know you look around the world now and equally we can be just as adamant in observing other people and think you know you are so wrong you know and all and perhaps we're not right either but all of us if we were able to calibrate our confidence a bit more we're going to be able to bring those two poles together much more easily.

Let's just touch on the other two so-called thinking traps. The other is the uh one of the others is the pull of hubris. Can you say more about that one? Well, this is where you know I've been really su I'm generally let's say for any of us hypothetically we've been really uh successful in what we've done in the past. It's worked a thousand times. times. times. Of course it's going to work again. You know, of course I know what I'm doing because I've solved this problem, you know, however many times.

I've sat on company boards for a long time um in my career and you know you see hubris in operation in boardrooms because the people in those rooms generally are successful. They've been successful in whatever they do. They believe that success will continue and they find it much much harder to think well perhaps in this situation the context has changed. I mean the world has changed far more quickly and is changing more quickly than I think any of us have experienced before. If we're not constantly questioning, you know, do I am I being honest with myself about how much I know and am I being curious to learn more and then flexible enough to change my mind, then the world has changed around us and that hubris is going to catch us out.

I mean, I agree with all of this. I'm nodding um either visibly or invisibly, I'm nodding along. I just I just bump on one aspect of human nature which is that we many of us hate not knowing. We like certainty. It's a bull work against um a um a world that often seems out of control. So I think a lot of people will will like what you're saying but in practice may find some aversion. aversion. aversion. Right. Right. Right. Me too. Like I've written the book and I completely agree.

Especially when we're stressed and when the world is changing so quickly, we cling to certainty. That's absolutely human nature. But is it always working for us? So all I'm suggesting is yes, we know that that's where our default is. But if you're still making decisions every day where you're thinking the next day, what the [ __ ] was I thinking? Then perhaps we need to do something a little bit different. And I'm just encouraging that we recognize the reality. So there's nothing wrong with wanting certainty. Like that's obviously where we're at.

Yet the world isn't certain. So like we can continue to cling to certainty with the world changing around us and us making perhaps decisions and having forming opinions and views that are inflexible or we can accept the world's going to keep changing and what are some ways I can get comfortable with that uncertainty. And if you're a seeker as we talked about before you know that your knowledge is always changing. So if you accept you don't know everything and so I'm going to talk from personal example.

I know I don't know. I don't know everything about what we're talking about right now. And because of that, I'm uncertain about what I'm going to learn tomorrow that I don't know today that'll change my mind. And I'm okay with that. So, there's topics that I'm really comfortable with not knowing a lot about. There's other topics where I'm far less comfortable. It feels like I don't know if I think about my kids. If someone was to say to me as a parent, you don't know everything you know that's going on with your children and so you may not be able to make the best decision.

That sort of gets right at my sense of self. But it's recognizing both of those. And all I'm suggesting is that people really pay attention to what they're basing their decisions on and whether they're basing it on how they've always done things or that need for certainty or that feeling that they're an expert and uh they're not prepared to open their mind to a different way of doing things. If all of that's going on for you, which it is for all of us, then this is purely a suggestion about some practical ways you can think about it differently.

differently. differently. Yes. And we're going to get very practical soon, but just to build on what you're saying, it's like, yeah, uh, it sucks to be uncertain sometimes. Uh, it can be uncomfortable, but how do you want to navigate a world that's in constant flux? Do you want to be brittle and breakable, or do you want to be supple and, you know, sophisticated? That is a very neat way of putting it. Yeah, I'm I'm just all I'm I'm Australian as well. We're very blunt with the truth.

Like, the world's changing. It is ambiguous. So you can either like get on board with that and and figure out how to deal with that uncertainty and feel a bit more comfortable or continue to have fixed views which I think are not serving any of us. of us. of us. Okay. The third thinking trap is the illusion of knowledge. Say more. When I think back I don't we're probably of a similar vintage and you know I started working 30 odd years ago and I accumulated knowledge.

So whether it was going to university or new jobs, new experiences, and he kind of it's like you're carrying around this big pile of books to every new job, to every new experience, every new crisis, and I'd sort of bring it with me. I look back now and all of that knowledge is pretty much out of date. I certainly don't lead the way I led 30 years ago, so that's not helpful. I certainly don't. The technology I was using 30 years ago isn't relevant. It's that illusion that the bigger your pile of books that you can haul around, the more you actually are able and capable and and learning in the world.

Now, this none of this is black and white. Obviously, none of this is binary. And of course, all of those experiences and failures I've had over 30 years have got me to this point. But if we think because we've done this job 10 times already or we've read a thousand books or we've listened to 100 podcasts or whatever somehow that's going to see us through the challenges of today then um you know that's where I'm saying that's an illusion. Uh we have to keep learning and I need to keep understanding more and and understanding which of those books to throw out.

Just not mine or yours. Um, yeah. I mean, I'm realistic enough to say perhaps in a few years there'll be a better way. And that's okay, too. Let's get, we've been talking at a pretty high level. Let's get uh practical. In your book, you say there are these three blind spotting mindsets. And the first is to be honest, which I think is deceptively um simple um in that it's not that simple. But can you say a little bit more about what you mean by be honest and then how to actually do that?

Yeah, and it's absolutely simplified to it's, you know, as we're talking about, it's based on an entire theory of intellectual humility and it's not easy. Uh, but I think there are ways that we can think about ourselves and our thinking that helps it. So, three practices, I touched on them very briefly before. The first being able to accept our intellectual limits. And I think about our knowledge on a spectrum. So you've got intellectual arrogance on one end and then uh sort of complete anxious lack of knowledge on the other on topics and I move between any you know of those points.

Neither of them are helpful obviously being someone who thinks they know everything and someone who can't even make a decision cuz they fear they don't know anything. Blind spotting is the sweet spot in the middle where as I said earlier you're very aware that you don't know everything but you're confident you'll find out the answer. So the first sort of step in blind spotting is really being able to accept that and not everyone can and not all of we can't all the time either. It is really hard.

The second being around our ego and I sort of touched on that earlier around if you define yourself as I don't know let's pick on lawyers. If you define yourself as a lawyer or an attorney and that is everything about how you define yourself and see yourself and you know you just your whole sense of self is wrapped up in giving out your business card that you're this great attorney. Then if someone gives you feedback or says actually you don't know everything about being an attorney or you know you didn't do that case very well.

It completely cuts into our sense of who we are. And so my suggestion and this is incredibly difficult but it's disentangling our ego from whatever it is we do and thinking of ourselves by how we contribute to others or being of service or what we know. But it just means that we're able to accept we don't know everything a bit more easily. And then the third is around uh hunting our biases. And that's, you know, really thinking about those thinking biases we touched on around hubris and confirmation bias.

And you know, when my husband's telling me how to pack the dishwasher, uh I am absolutely susceptible to googling and finding every proof point that he's wrong and I'm right. and that is uh confirmation bias at work cuz I exclude all of the information that might say that he's right. But more seriously, when we look at, you know, political challenges and people who are just polls apart, obviously we know we can be in our bubbles and we're not looking to understand where others are coming from.

So that can be a real challenge. So there's sort of the three practices that help us to be honest. I would love to learn more about how to do each of these. So let's just go in reverse order in terms of hunting your biases biases biases um and and um you know not being so owned by something like confirmation bias which is you know um latching on to the information that confirms our priors. How do this is this goes against all of our wiring. Yeah. Yeah.

I think um I love the question you know what am I missing? So if you're in a if you're leading a team, let's say, if you've created uh a team environment where you're genuinely interested in others contributions and they feel safe to speak up, then I would be asking them, what are you seeing that I'm not seeing? You know, what is it clear that I don't know about this situation? Because, you know, we've all got these incredibly attuned [ __ ] meters. And I know if you're bullshitting me, Dan, I'm going to pause for one second.

I like I just swear naturally. Is this podcast one where you're comfort Okay, so let me start over. I realized I've already dropped the fbomb twice and I thought, [ __ ] it's only 6:30 in the morning. Okay, good. Um, so you know, we've got these incredibly highly attuned [ __ ] meters. I know if you're bullshitting me, it's clear as day. We all realize that. Yet, we've got this bias that we think no one can tell or we don't realize when we're bullshitting that others can realize. Let me say that.

I got tongue tied again there. We've got these incredibly attuned [ __ ] meters. We can tell when someone else is bullshitting, but for whatever reason, we've got a bias that we believe no one knows when we're bullshitting. And so, that is just this massive blind spot in and of itself. And so, when I'm speaking to leaders, like they all acknowledge they don't know everything. So, no one's got a problem doing that. I'm like, well, why do you feel you no one's going to realize that? So, this idea about how we can be honest, the more we can be accepting that that's okay.

Accepting that if I ask my team, look, what are you seeing? What am I missing? What biases have I got that I'm not even aware of? That is how we can start to open our mind and build trust with the people that we're leading. So, so many people feel that saying, "I don't know yet," is like a career killer. If I say that, I'll lose my job. My view on that is if you're in an environment where you can't say that, then you got way bigger problems than a lack of intellectual humility in the organization.

You know, you're in such a toxic environment um that there's bigger issues to play because I know having been a leader for so many years, I want people telling me when they don't know. I don't want them bullshitting me. bullshitting me. bullshitting me. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. It's why we love a good podcast or we save voicemails from loved ones because we appreciate the sound of a familiar voice. When I need a pickme up, I call my friend Willie. Willie and I have known each other for nearly 25 years.

He's just an incredibly close friend, and I laugh my you know what off every time we talk. That's my guy. AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicemail, call someone because that conversation is a chance to say something they will hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. I chose Function because it is the only health platform that gives me data most people never get and the insights to start doing something about it. Inside Function, you get access to test over 160 lab tests annually, from hormones to toxins to markers of heart health, inflammation, and stress.

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um so that I see when um you know like so so just to be honest about where I am politically I think I'm close to the center I spent the uh you know much of my life being a journalist I'm not particularly ide uh ideological um so I think I'm just sort of wired for curiosity and some degree of openness but you know Trump has been um hard for me um and so I really do try to listen across the spectrum Um, I'm not putting myself through Steve Bannon's podcast or um, you know, Tucker Carlson, but I do I do listen to folks on the center right who are either uh, if not proTrump, they're at least a little bit more open than than most of the mainstream media is.

Um, and of course I listen on the people who are way to the left of me. And I have found this is a pretty good way to if I'm on my game, I can catch uh both confirmation bias and also what's called attribution error. Uh where uh if somebody you don't like does something, it's an aberration. If somebody you do like does something, it's proof of their fundamental goodness. Um and so I don't know if there's data on any of this, if I'm an outlier, but what what say you?

I agree completely. And in fact, in the book, I talk about how opening our mind and being curious, so we haven't sort of got to being curious yet, but pursuing different perspectives is incredibly important. And you know, I had a real lesson here. I'm probably very similar to you, uh, politically center more to the left than current, you know, if we're looking at far right. But we had a referendum in Australia um recently and I it I voted uh yes to recognize our indigenous first nations people in our constitution.

That was the referendum and it was obviously people towards the left voted yes and those who didn't want to see that voted no and the outcome was an overwhelming no vote and by something like 60 or 70%. So I was a minority with other people on the left who voted. They wanted to see First Nations people recognized recognized recognized it. For me, I wouldn't change my vote if I did it again tomorrow. So I'm still very much of that view that we should recognize our First Nations people.

But to your point, it made me realize I had not gone and sought to understand what turns out to be the majority of my fellow citizens were believing or why they were believing it. And it's a real gap. Not that we're expected to change our mind, but as you do, I read very widely now, and I don't go down to the far right or the far left, but different perspectives of conservative media that perhaps don't cause me to change my mind on issues that are fundamentally important to me.

So, someone who's anti-marriage equality, on promarriage equality, they could talk till the cows come home. I'm never going to change my mind on that. But I like to understand why other people feel the way they do because it's helpful to calibrate our confidence in issues. And I can then recognize that yes, I'm holding firm to a view I have, but I'm doing that on a values-based perspective or I'm doing that for whatever reason. It's not that I haven't pursued to understand the facts of what are involved or something like that.

So, I don't know if that helps explain, but I I'm totally with you that if we don't read widely and if we don't listen to others with different perspectives, you get caught out like I did being literally shocked that most of my citizens had fellow citizens had a very different view than I did. You also mentioned earlier, you know, this idea of disentangling your ego. You use the idea the example of a lawyer. I'd be curious to hear a little bit more on the how of that because identity, you know, I from a Buddhist perspective, and I come from a Buddhist perspective, identity is a total trap.

Um, but it's a seductive one. And, you know, we all walk around with I am a mom, I am a dad, I am a Australian, I'm an American, whatever. We we've got this whole list of things that we identify as. That's even in the common parliament now. I identify as fill-in- thelank. Um, and obviously to a certain extent this is natural and healthy. And when I talk about the Buddhist saying it's a trap, it's a that's on a on a on a deep level when it become when these beliefs become really self-limiting.

Um, but this is a long way of just getting to what do you recommend for disentangling our ego, which of course can lead to better decisions. If if every time somebody questions my expertise, I'm bringing to bear all of my identities. I'm a journalist. Oh, I'm X, Y, and Z. Uh, I then become really brittle. But that sounds easier said than done. Yeah, all of this is easier said than done, Dan. Like, there's no doubt writing a book about blind spotting is a lot easier than engaging in blind spotting.

And if I didn't recognize that, then that would be a massive blind spot on my part. So, I think the way that I try and do it, and I feel I'm not a Buddhist, so I'm sure you're far better at this than I am, but I know that if I can recognize my triggers or that what's going on in my body when I'm getting defensive, so if I can feel I'm becoming defensive, becoming defensive, becoming defensive, if I catch it, and I don't always, but if I catch it, then I know, okay, my ego has been triggered something.

I'm either feeling shame, embarrassment, I'm um it's starting something is being activated in me that is probably going to lead to me getting frustrated and angry and defensive and it's not going to be helpful. So firstly, I try to catch what's going on for me. I also then try and reflect on if I'm going to go into a difficult decision, a different difficult discussion, then I if I know that is a topic that is likely to trigger me, then that helps to be able to just plan for that and stay present.

So, if I know I'm going to have to sit down with some people who are, I don't know, have a really strong view on something that I don't agree with, then at least I know, okay, this is what's going to happen and this is how I'm going to feel. So, let's plan how I'm going to actually avoid, you know, becoming defensive and then just losing all my uh ability to have a reasonable conversation. And so, I think in some of these tense conversations, if you've got someone else there who's able to observe you afterwards, that's always helpful cuz you they'll tell you what they saw going on.

But it it it's more more more uh for me a physical thing. But I I'd actually love to know from you. What do you do? Like we all get defensive. Uh that happens. Do you feel something coming on? coming on? coming on? Well, for sure. Uh I I like that suggestion. You said you're not a Buddhist, but from a meditation or mindfulness standpoint, knowing that defensiveness is going to show up as a certain set of sensations often before you're even registering it consciously is really it's a great alarm bell like, "Oh, okay.

I'm getting triggered here. Let me take a few deep breaths. Let me call a a pause to the meeting. Let me just uh retire to greener pastures in my own mind for a second and get my [ __ ] together. together. together. Let me get the hell out of here. Yeah. Or even just without, you know, without actually leaving the room, you can just um uh retreat for a second. So, all of that makes complete sense to me. There's a concept that I have found really helpful. It comes from um a uh uh a writer and a and she's this person has become a friend of mine after being on the show a couple times.

Her name is Dolly Chug. She's at NYU and she's written a few really good books. Actually was texting with her today about a dinner that we're going to have. Um and she has this concept that's called goodishness. called goodishness. called goodishness. So if somebody So for me, I often get defensive around uh if somebody's criticizing me in a way in which I read it as they're calling me a bad person because it's triggering my ancient story lines about being a wretch. Um and which were, you know, which are really go far back for me.

Uh if I can just, and I've really worked on this over time, switch my self-conception from neither from either bad or good, both of which are brittle, uh to goodish. Well, then when somebody gives me feedback, I can take it on board in a much easier way because um uh I'm not reading it as I'm a horrible person. I'm reading it as, oh, I'm goodish, but I've made a mistake, so therefore I can learn from it and grow. I I love that. And in a similar vein, I know I have three triggers when someone's giving me feedback.

And I so because I know them I then as I'm listening to the feedback sort of distance myself a bit going oh that's that trigger or this is that one. So the first one is I'm thinking you're wrong. So it doesn't matter what the feedback is. I'm so busy I can feel myself starting to formulate an argument as to why I'm going to say yeah but you didn't know about XY Z. And so that's going on. And now when that happens, I recognize and I just name it and go, "Oh, okay.

That's me being triggered that they're wrong. Let's park that." The second trigger is that you're an idiot. So I'm so caught up in the nature of the relationship that I have with the person. So whether I think they're a [ __ ] and like you got the audacity of giving me feedback, man. You can't even look after your own [ __ ] How why are you giving me feedback like this? So I name that. Okay. I've just been triggered by the fact that I think you're a [ __ ] There are dinosaurs and [ __ ] all over the earth at the moment.

So, there's a few of them, including us. We got to put the mirror up. So, there the first two triggers. The third trigger though is when I can sense it um has triggered my ego. So, I am feeling shame or embarrassed or that I have done the wrong thing. You know, I genuinely feel that's my big yours is about being good or bad. mine is if I have done the wrong thing and I can feel just that [clears throat] immediate sensation of um adrenaline and oh my gosh and just naming those even if it's like oh yeah I think this guy's an idiot it takes the power away for me anyway and lets me just then okay let's just listen to whatever is being said either withdraw from the situation or take a pause or whatever so I think any combination of these help it just helps yes And again, we're talking about deep wiring in the human animal.

And uh this is not it's not going to be undone overnight. Uh so just to reset, we're talking about the three blind spotting mindsets. We've been talking about um honesty. Uh the second one, and we've talked about this a little bit already, but it's worth naming and diving into. The second one is curiosity. Can you hold forth on the value of the the wise and wherefors of this? You know, we talked at the beginning about the three mindsets. being honest, being curious, being flexible. What I should have said is they're really not helpful unless you do all three together.

So like I mean you could be honest, that's great, but like just because I'm honest with myself and go, "Yeah, I don't know everything about a topic." And then go back my merry way and continue on, that's not great. So you have to then be curious to find out. So if I've been honest that I don't know everything, now I've got to be curious. And we'll talk about what that is. But of course, once I learn that there's more data involved or something I'm not aware of and I learn what it is, I've then got to be flexible to actually change my mind.

So you can see you have to do all three of these or else, you know, you're just continuing on. So the curiosity piece is I've now accepted I don't know everything. Great. I've got to now search for the truth. And it blows my mind that the truth is contested these days because of course there is an objective truth and that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about your truth or my truth and you know truth social or whatever bloody truths are out there. This is the objective truth that is measurable and and verifiable.

Not everything is. I I understand that. But if there is a way, you know, I love flatearthers. I'm I'm sure there's no flat-earthers listening to your podcast, but just in case they are, I'm going to Antarctica in 2 days. I'm off for a month. And flatearthers, I went down this rabbit hole of flatearthers cuz they're easy to pick on. But they believe that uh the CIA mans a big wall in Antarctica to stop us all falling over the edge. Now, I am going down there. I If I see that wall, I promise I will loudly and proudly share photos and say, "Good on you, Fletters." you were right, but I'm just going to hazard a guess that there's no wall down there.

Uh, and you know, so that's an example where there is an objective truth that the world is not flat. We've got plenty of science to tell us that. And that's what we've really got to seize onto after we're, you know, searching for the objective truth. I spoke earlier about pursuing different perspectives. Now, this is finding people who perhaps definitely don't agree with us. And again, it's not saying we've got to go and sit in Steve Bannon's podcast and have our mind changed because that's not what I want to do.

I don't want to spend my time doing that. And I'm not proposing that we need to. But again, if I take it back to a more everyday situation, as mentioned, I sat on boards. We would do acquisitions, M&A, and you know, take over different companies and all of those sorts of decisions that you make in a corporate environment. I don't ever remember, remember, remember, you know, after we've ticked all the boxes and said we've looked at all the risks and rewards and done our due diligence, I don't ever recall actually going and seeking out someone who vehemently disagreed with what we're about to do and saying, "What do you see that I don't see?" doesn't mean I have to change my mind but literally saying you really think this is a bad idea why like why is it what am I seeing or what am I not seeing and that you are so that's the idea of pursuing different perspectives doesn't mean you have to change your mind but you do need to sort of take it on board and then finally being able to question for insight and this is the idea of using questions to learn and not to win so I said before we can all be clever enough to ask.

I could ask you enough questions right now, Dan, where I could put you into a corner and you would just throw your arms up because it's exhausting. You you you know, you just I don't want to have to keep arguing with you about something with someone who just keeps asking me questions to prove their point. Questioning for insight is the opposite where I'm genuinely interested in your answer and I'm genuinely prepared to take what I learn from you on board in what I'm understanding. And so that means we can be curious.

What kind of questions would that include? You've listed some like what am I missing or what are you seeing that I'm not seeing? But are there are there great questions to get in the habit of asking? asking? asking? Yeah, I think it's you know what would you do differently than what we're about to do if we could? So, you know, if we if this idea was off the table, what would we be doing? Or what will it look like if we get this wrong? Uh what will, you know, is a what's something that you have seen we've done in the past that we've missed and that we could be missing again today?

It's really just asking ourselves, you know, if I was an outsider looking in at our process here, what would they observe? What what would they see that we're not seeing? I think any of these questions, the whatifs will lead to other questions. And you're also building trust with your team that you genuinely respect what they've got to contribute. And by being a leader who can say, "Look, I don't know all the answers. I need you Dan to fill here this gap and you know someone else to fill another gap.

If you can do that, we're building trust and respect and showing them that their contributions are actually needed. They're not just sort of um people to do whatever it is we want them to do. We're actually interested in what they can contribute and collaborate and and all of those ideas. ideas. ideas. I think that's known as psychological safety. safety. safety. Yeah. Well, that is the goal. So I mean how we get there is one of the ways I think is being able to ex ask and accept whatever answers come your way.

Just to say a little bit more about what psychological safety is and the you know a lot of what we're talking about here is within a workplace setting and that's great but you know see you can have psychological safety with your in your marriage and with your children and um in your uh friend groups uh you with in all of your relationships. And it basically is creating an atmosphere where people are comfortable speaking their mind even if they're way lower on you on on whatever hierarchy is operational in the moment.

Um and there's a lot of data to show that this is the secret sauce behind successful organizations. I have failed historically quite miserably at this. I've done a lot of work in recent years to get better at it, but it's definitely a work in process. Um, so yeah. Is there any anything further to say on this subject of psychological safety and how to create it? Well, I love that you got us away from the work setting. I find with in a work setting, I'm more conscious of asking the right questions, doing it in a way that everyone feels that they're being involved and collaborative because you kind of go in with that mindset.

I have found then when I'm in friendship groups where we start to talk about something contentious, you know, I'm far less in that mindset of uh oh, you know, I want to make sure I'm hearing your view, Dan. You know, we're sitting over dinner having a few drinks and arguing about something. A lot of that uh technique can go out the window because you're more relaxed and you're sort of taking for granted that you can say things. It's like, you know, we sometimes treat those we love the worst.

we're we're terrific with people we don't know very well and yet we can you know as I said my husband might suggest a different way to do something and I'm like no way that is just wrong now I would never say that to someone I don't know very well so I think it's something we should and could be practicing a lot more in all aspects of our life uh not just thinking of it as a work uh idea and I know that's something I need to get better at as well well well so again we're talking about the three blind sping uh the three blind spotting mindset That's we talked about honesty, we talked about curiosity.

You made the point that um all three work together. They're important to them simultaneously. The third is flexibility. Can you can you hold forth on that one? Yeah. So, okay. Now, we've been honest. We don't know everything. I've been curious. I've actually gone and found out that, you know, whatever it is, the earth is uh a spoid. It's not flat. So, now I have to be flexible with that. So if I've gone and discovered that what I thought was true isn't true, then you know it follows that we need to be able to adjust our thinking.

We have to have an open mind. Now I want to say at the outset, blind spotting is not about not having a view or having not having fixed views. Again, it's this sweet spot. I'm not expecting us to flip-flop. And I've already said there's views on things like marriage equality. I'm never going to change my mind on it. it doesn't matter what I hear all the arguments for and against right now that is a view I hold firm but there's other positions I've taken on things um let's working from home has been a great example when co happened and everyone went working from home I'm 52 I was like cheering thinking yes I hope I never have to go anywhere ever again and I never put shoes on and I'm going to work from home forever and I was a real zealot and I write a weekly column here in our national papers and I was like yep everyone should who can should be able to work from home.

I've had to really adjust my thinking on that because I observed my daughters who are in their 20s who really were missing out on opportunities by not being around those they learned from from listening to the perspectives of others who had seen the culture of their teams really disintegrate or just those who had a whole different lived experience to my own. So it doesn't mean I've changed my mind. I'm still, you know, if you can do it, great and make it work. But I have had to calibrate my confidence.

That was the term that I was right. You know, I've really had to calibrate. Actually, I got that a little bit wrong. I do tend to get overly excited about things anyway. And then sort of ratchet it back. But what being flexible about then is reading the room. So really being able to understand the room we're in and how it's changing and the context and the signals and you know all of that sense making that we do being able to embrace ambiguity. We've said how hard that is but if I can be flexible it means I'm happy to not be hard and fast in what I believe.

I'm prepared to change my mind and then keeping our mind open obviously and you know all of that is really important for us to avoid those decisions we make where later on we think what the [ __ ] was I thinking you know it's doing these things that will help us avoid that I thought of another great little uh phrase that that might be helpful with all of these um I'm recording this right now from the kitchen of a cottage on the grounds of the Insight Meditation Society, which is a Buddhist retreat center co-founded by my longtime friend and teacher, Joseph Goldstein.

Uh I'm here because I'm um uh recording some content with him over the these days. And um he has an expression which really uh pops into my mind at opportune moments, which is certainty is not an indication of truth. Yeah. [laughter and gasps] Well, I'm sure he's learned that the hard way, too, as we all have. You know, we can be as sure as [ __ ] that we're right. And um we'll very quickly find out we're not. Uh so, I mean, when you ask me at the beginning, how do you sell this idea?

I mean, it's it's stuff like this. Like, it doesn't matter where you sit on the political spectrum, every single person has had a real confidence in their belief be upended for whatever. It could be something simple or it can be something really major. And it's just being aware that that is human nature as much as holding on to certainty is. So given that's the case, what are some really practical things we can do to just help? It's not going to make it's not a golden bullet.

It's a silver bullet. Uh it's not going to make sure we never make bad decisions again, but it's going to help. I mean, I I would add another um benefit beyond improved decision-m, which I certainly agree with, but there's the the world is much more interesting when you're not stuck in your certainty. So, I think it was Graeme Green who said, "When we're not sure, we're alive." I mean, I you you and I both obviously read more widely than uh things I might agree with, but I find it fascinating just literally reading what people believe.

Um, you know, when I went down my rabbit hole of flatearthers, I was able to look at it from just a perspective of that must be fascinating thinking this way. You know, what is it that leads people to think this? And how is it you get in a situation? And I'm going to I feel like I hope we've got no flat earth that's listening. Please don't email me. But you know, how do you get to that position when there's so much evidence to show that you're wrong?

I think we can look at things from an intellectual perspective, but only when you look widely. And you know, that's just a really trit example cuz it's easy. But there's so many more subtle ways that our thinking can be influenced. And so I find it fascinating to read widely to see what people believe and why. Anything more to say about how to take these three mindsets, honesty, curiosity, and flexibility and flexibility and have them all work together in the moments when we need them to. them to.

them to. It is difficult, but it's not impossible. And the more you can create people around you that feel this way as well. So the more you can be saying to your kids, you know, it's okay to not know. I mean, we're pretty good at doing that with young kids. I don't know that we're that good with our adult children, you know, to really reaffirming when I think of um I mentioned I've got daughters, they're 25 and 23. And so I've been watching them go through the start of their careers.

And of course, for them to say to their bosses right now, I don't know, is terrifying. I think you and I have more confidence. The more senior you become, the more you sometimes feel able to say, you know, you've built enough credit in the bank to be able to say, "Look, I don't know how to do this yet, but I know I'll figure it out." When we've got younger people, we do the opposite. Because when they truly don't know, we have this expectation that they do.

So, I think the way that we can be making this easier for all of us is making it okay to not know. and having that as just a fundamental part of our families, our schooling. You know, schools and universities go completely against everything we're talking about because you're doing exams, you're getting tested on knowledge and if you don't know, you don't do as well. Uh, and you get a lesser score and so I don't have a solution for that. But I know that that ingrains in us this sense of saying I don't know becomes so much harder.

So, I think we do need to find ways that being uncertain and unsure is perfectly okay. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. And if you love podcasts, you get that. The power of hearing somebody speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something. For me, when I need a one-on-one holiday boost, I know who to call. My friend Joseph Goldstein, my meditation teacher. This is a guy who is just every time I got a problem, I can call him up and he talks me off the ledge and gives me practical and profound advice.

AT&T knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you've called somebody who matters, now is the time because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they will hear forever. So, uh, spread a little love with a call this season. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. That's particularly hard in a in the middle of a pandemic of perfectionism. I mean, is literally on the rise perfectionism. perfectionism. perfectionism. As a victim of perfectionism, as a recovering perfectionist who's trying to uh be happy enough with average, I totally understand that.

But it is liberating once you get there because perfectionism uh or being perfect and getting everything right is unattainable because even if you get something right now, you know, the next thing won't be right. So I mean again, it's another reality that [clears throat] we can either keep trying to go for it and encouraging our kids to go for it or we can accept that it's just not attainable. So, what do you recommend in terms of building uh a culture where it's okay to admit you don't know?

Just tactically, what do you recommend? I mean, what comes to mind for me is um in my limited experience as a my um in my limited experience as a leader is um to model it. You know, I I often talk about how the fish rots from the head and I'm the head of the fish. And so when there are problems, um, my instinct is to look inward first before lashing out. Sometimes I [ __ ] up and lash out first, but generally when I'm on my game, it's to look inward.

And so I guess if I wanted to take seriously your injunction here to create an atmosphere where it's okay to admit you don't know, I would want to start modeling that from the top. Yeah. So the first that's absolutely critical and I think building these cultures of seekers going back to is what we want and we role model that. So a it's what we spoke about before being able to even say to ourselves let alone other people that you don't know everything. You know I don't know yet but I'm confident team we're going to figure this out.

It's if someone else in your team says they don't know truly thanking them for that honesty and saying terrific. I mean, I don't either, Dan. So, let's figure this out together. It's being able to accept that it's normal in a team not to have all the answers and that what we want is to stay curious and open to learning. These gaps in our knowledge is just completely understandable. But gosh, look at the opportunity it gives us to explore something we haven't even thought of yet. So it's about framing to our teams and this is all about psychological safety as well that not knowing isn't a weakness.

You know in our team not knowing is a realistic uh certainty if we want to be certain about something is that we're not going to know all the answers. And so how are we going to sort that together? That's that real confidence. But again to remind people who are listening saying well you know we've got some drama. We're dealing with a crisis that's just not going to fly. I agree. There are times where this is not an appropriate way to proceed. If there is a crisis, if a decision needs to be made straight away, if you know your team is struggling and they uh are looking to you for guidance, you may need to just lead from the front and with all that expertise and experience say this is what I believe we're going to do.

This is how I'm going to go forward. I want you guys to call me out if I'm missing something, but otherwise, you know, let's let's go. So you have to be able to read the room as well. Yes, that makes complete sense. Just staying on this theme of building a culture where people are seekers and whatnot. What about hiring? How can you and by the way just taking this beyond the workplace? I mean when you hire a new friend, you know, when you you [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] when you curate your social life and you know decide who you're going to surround yourself with.

So how do [clears throat] how do we build cultures of psychological safety and seeking um uh in whatever orbit we happen to move through? through? through? Nvidia, which who we all know as a company, they sort of open and end my book and I write about the culture they've created because they're one of the few companies um that I could find in the Fortune 500 that have intellectual honesty as a corporate value. and they truly have built a culture of seekers. And uh Jensen Hang writes and again it's in the book about how he recruits and he'll get someone to tell them tell him something they know a lot about you know explain how Buddhism works to me Dan and I'll let you explain it but then he deliberately will say yeah how but you know and challenge you I don't think that makes sense or you know why would that be and he watches to see how they react.

So on something that's you know really important to you how do you respond when I am challenging a view that you have and if there's someone who is prepared to go that's really interesting actually I hadn't thought of that perspective you know I'll go away and think about it obviously it's an interview it doesn't really matter what the topic is then that's someone who's more likely to become a seeker in your team if it's obviously a person who's got a very fixed view it's going to be much more difficult so I think we can be recruiting for these skills where We're open to learning and we're open to not having all the answers even on something that we feel an expert in.

And that brings us back to that, you know, curse of expertise. You're really trying to see how flexible people are in their thinking. And in friendships, it's similar. you know, we all sort of as we first get to know someone, we're tentatively like, are you a crazy whack job with, you know, really extreme views or can I just, you know, I'm just going to test where you stand on some issues that are important to me. And, you know, I can sense in 5 seconds whether or not we're going to get on.

Um, and if we feel we can, then I'll be really curious to see over time, does that hold on a whole range of different topics? And again, likewise, I'm sure they're weighing me up as well. And so perhaps I'm the crazy whack job and in some people's minds, but I think we're all just trying to find our fellow crazies. This is a what I'm about to ask about is really a workplace or a corporate thing. But in your book you talk about in uh in one way to build a um a culture of seekers uh well you just mentioned one way which is to make intellectual humility a core value but another is to kind of build it into how you're designing the organization or in corporate speak or design um you know like what kind of how what kind of uh reporting structure are you creating within the company who's reporting to whom I believe you recommend to people thinking like a journalist.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that is true. Uh because journalists, I think, are good at checking out their source. So, this is all part of uh trying to find the truth in things. So, you know, so often you've got, you know, your crazy uncle Fred who says, "Have you heard uh cuz I read on Facebook and you just know whatever is about to follow is complete rot." And you know that he hasn't checked the source. he hasn't thought, you know, critically about what he's reading. He has just believed whatever he's said.

I think where, you know, the idea of what journalists do is good is that they good, we're talking about, okay, now let's clarify, we're talking about really robust journalists that um are very committed to their craft. They will go and seek multiple perspectives. They will try and get to the the truth of a situation. they will um question where that information is coming from. What biases might be driving, you know, my view on a topic that I've given you an answer to, what vested interests are at play, all of that kind of thing makes us better at critical thinking.

And critical thinking is obviously behind everything we're talking about. This idea of questioning what we know and what we believe we know and and how we can move forward. So that's what I mean about journalists, but I'm very conscious now there's a lot of citizen journalists and others that perhaps don't tick all of those boxes. So I perhaps should have had an asterisk in the book just to qualify that. Yes. Thinking like a real journalist. Yes. Yes. Yes. One of those old school journalists that actually, you know, did the hard yards.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am uh one of those old school journalists. Not only uh in in that I've been doing it for a long time, but also in that I'm old. Um uh so I mean I find it it's really helpful um especially in a time like we're in right now where uh you know it's so polarized just having these habits of mind that um allow me to sort of calmly interact with difference. Um it just reduces my hysteria level hysteria level hysteria level which that's always a good thing.

Um, but I it just means you're questioning. You know, journalists are really good at questioning uh what they know, what they think they know, the people they're speaking to, uh the truth. They're good at questioning power. You know, shining a light in dark places. All of those things we know about journalists. I think they're qualities that we can bring to our everyday relationships and uh the way we think about things. And I mentioned earlier the referendum that I really got wrong. I was not thinking like a journalist.

I did not go and seek different perspectives. I did not try to understand what I'm missing. I didn't understand what my vested interests were. You know, I didn't understand my biases. All of those things. And so, when the result came out, you know, unsurprisingly, I got it wrong. And um really had to question myself and look in the mirror about what I'd missed. There was a phrase you used earlier that I I felt like it might make sense to come back to, calibrating confidence. Can you say more about what that means and how to do it?

Yeah. Well, you know, it's I did it earlier before when we were talking. It's asking myself, look, what don't I know about this situation or what evidence is really going to make me change my mind? So, if I am got a firm view on something and I think um I'm just trying to think of what's what's something you've got a firm view on. Um, you know, it doesn't have to be a serious thing, but anything. Well, uh, you know, kind of what what I'm thinking about as you asked that is, uh, the difference between values and opinions.

Um, you're you've said before that you're not going to change your mind on marriage equality, but you might change your mind on so that's a value of equality. um whereas you might have opinions on any number of issues in the culture, but those um I think it's healthy to be open to overturning. And so for me, I have core values that I'm not willing to, you know, I'm I'm pro- kindness. Um I'm uh pro- fairness, all of those things. But what's so so what is something where I have like a really you've just hit on something though that's really really important that we haven't touched on.

So let's not use marriage equality but let's say ah the environment okay so everyone if I say to you do you care about the environment you know I would hope you it's such a broad question yes but as we narrow down the issues within it then there'll start to be somewhere you're going to have strong opinions perhaps against it so you know we might get right down to your local community yes I'm pro the environment but am I supportive of being fined find $1,000 if I put a bit of plastic in my bin.

Well, no, actually, hypothetically, that's, you know, not a thing. I care about the environment, but I don't care enough to pay $1,000 if I get a bit of plastic wrong. So, the narrower you get, the more challenging it becomes to have these conversations. So, it's easy for me to say, "Yes, I'm promarriage equality because it's a value." But there'll be issues within that. Am I supportive of you know some aspect within it? I don't know. I can't even think of something that it might be and perhaps I'm not.

So it's also you said how can we calibrate our confidence trying to be conscious of are we talking big picture? Am I just, you know, having a pretty bland conversation with you about the environment or are we really going to have a conversation about the nitty-gritty? If we're in the nitty-gritty, it's more likely to be heated because it's more likely that we're going to have a firm view on that. Does that make sense? It does. So, I'm just quite I I I see what you're saying about how the nitty-gritty is where you might be less confident and so what you're saying is uh you uh you uh you the the drilling down is where the calibration is happening and it's where it's as you're getting there.

So when Uncle Joe says, well he was Fred, I think Uncle Fred tells you that the world's flat. Um, and you go, "That's rubbish, but why do you think that way?" And you discover that he doesn't trust the government. And then you go, "Well, why?" And then it's because he got sent electricity bills that we I don't know. This is all just hypothetical. The more you get into the nitty-gritty, the more you can actually start to have a conversation about, okay, what happened when, [clears throat] you know, that happened?

How how did you feel when you got your bill that was wrong? And yeah, I can imagine. Not quite sure how you get to the leap that the world's flat, but anyway, good for you, Uncle Fred. But, you know, it's really being aware um in your teams and with the people that you're talking to. Where am I sitting in the conversation in the issue? You know, what is it that we're trying to resolve? Where for you does imposttor syndrome fit into all of this? Well, I I mean, we all obviously all of us have it.

It's that need to pretend that we know. So, I think when I felt the biggest impostor, it's when I haven't been able to say, "I don't quite know what I'm doing." Like, I I feel it, but I don't feel confident to say it. And the more I've grown into my confidence to be able to sit in a boardroom and go I don't I don't know the best way to proceed here you know I need much more information teach me um the more that helped me overcome being an impostor feeling like an imposter at the start of my board career where I felt I had to have the answers.

So at the very beginning when I was very young, I joined my first corporate board at 35 and first public company board at 38. And I I mean looking back now, I was just feeling I had to talk on every single agenda item and add no value at all. And I noticed the people around me, the really experienced directors hardly said anything, but what they did say was gold. And I coined an idea back then which I still use called the word to wisdom ratio, which is what I was trying to get to.

And I was using a huge amount of words for not much wisdom. Likewise, you would know people hardly any words, but every single bit of it is wise. So this word to wisdom ratio is how I was calibrating whether or not uh I perhaps needed to sit back and learn a bit more and calibrate my confidence. And I think if we are going into situations and we're doing all the talking and we're doing, you know, all the answers as well, you know, you love those people that ask a question and answer it for you too, then their word to wisdom ratio is crap.

And so I think we all need to be calibrating confidence through that. You mentioned before that you you're you've got two daughters in their early 20s and it's harder for them to admit they don't know in the workplace than it is for you given that you've built you've got some as you said credit in the bank. So what do you advise them to do? do? do? Well it so managing up um as a topic is really difficult. As I said, there are dinosaurs and [ __ ] roaming the earth.

And if you have a boss that is a dinosaur or a [ __ ] or both, then trying to create a way to feel safe around that is really hard. So there are times where you will just need to find somewhere else to work, which is awful and sometimes very difficult for people to be able to do. But if you are in an environment where you feel your boss is actually going to be receptive to you saying I don't know then I would be absolutely going to them and testing that and saying hey look I know you've asked me to do this but I just wanted to share with you I'm not 100% sure that I understand a what you've asked me to do or b how to do it or how to best get the outcome you're looking for.

Is it okay if you just spend some time to help me understand a bit more? Now, you'll very quickly know how safe or not safe it is to be able to do that. And I think it's a pretty poor boss that responds poorly to that. And if it does, it's your sign to get the hell out of there. So, this in some ways comes back to a phrase you've used several times in this. It's about reading the room. Yeah. So, reading the room um is was all sort of central to my research of my last book called Head and Heart.

And to me, it's a skill we do not focus on or think about or teach nearly enough. And I do want to mention though, I got great feedback after I wrote my last book from about reading the room from people who are neurode divergent. So I'm neurotypical. I wrote the book in a neurotypical way. And to me, I find it hard to even tell you how to read a room because it's intuitive. Like I just kind of you're picking I don't know. You would probably find the same.

It's hard to say what you're doing. But and obviously we're not talking about a room. Could be a team, organization, industry, whatever. People who are neurode divergent wrote to me and said, "I don't even know what you're talking about. Like this skill is just completely foreign to me. What is it?" And so we need to be I need to be aware as a neurotypical leader that a not everyone understands what we're talking about right now and b if I'm neurode divergent myself as a leader then I need to be doing different things.

I'm just curious um about that prior book. Are there any just little nuggets of wisdom you can share with us uh and again they may be only operationalizable for the neurotypical about how to how to read a room? Yeah. So head and heart was this whole idea and research done around you know the idea that um obviously we need to be able to understand what is needed and when [clears throat] and that we all have these attributes of leading with the head which is around uh reading a room and curiosity which we've talked about and capability and you know all of those kind of tangible things and we've got to balance that with empathy and self-awareness and um courage [clears throat] to speak up for what we believe in.

Reading the room is an firstly it's going into any situation and asking ourselves you know who's in the room but most importantly who's missing from the room or who's in the room but not speaking and you know I'm only hearing it's like an orchestra am I only hearing the drums but you know we've got all the violins over here I can't hear them at all or the bassoons I've never used this analogy before I don't know where bassoons came from but the bassoons aren't even in the room and you know the tubers are just refusing to come in the room.

Okay, I'm going to leave that whole analogy now. But it's really this idea of observing what's going on around us. And it's not just body it's body language to me is um minor. This is what are our competitors doing? What um changes are going on in the world around us that are going to influence where we need to go? you know, what steps and decisions do I need to take now that are going to benefit us in the future? And um I wrote that book straight after CO and I used the example of your MBA commissioner who shut down the MBA season right at the start of CO at a time when the then President Trump was saying, you know, CO's fine, it's just drink bleach or whatever.

you know, he certainly had to make a decision to shut down an entire season of football at a time when that was not being uh recommended more broadly, but it was the right decision. And so, how did he do that? How did he read the room? And um I think it's really, you know, sort of an example some of your listeners might remember. remember. remember. Yeah. Yes. I remember when the um the when the NBA shut down, that kind of signaled the beginning of the of the pandemic.

Um, but so when you say read the room, it's not just and I think you you made this clear, but I'm just further clarifying it. It's not just when you walk into a room, what are the atmospherics? It's also like uh situational awareness globally uh in your decision-m. your decision-m. your decision-m. It's like when you start a new job and how you're observing what the culture is. So for those first few weeks, months, you know, you're just kind of picking up, okay, this is how they do things around here.

this is what happens um in our meetings. This is who comes, this is who doesn't come. Now, that's again a pretty um minor way of doing it in a contained environment, but reading the room can happen globally. You know, we're reading the room as to what's going on with the far right in different um countries at the moment and different elections. We're reading the room about what's happening in different industries, what's happening with AI. Yeah. So, it's that's why I say body language is kind of um you know, you and I have been reading the room through this podcast, reading how you react to things.

I'm sort of observing, you're observing how I react, and we're making the conversation more effective by sort of playing off each other. That's how the two of us are doing it in this context. But if we were now to be in a room of a thousand people, I'd be doing something slightly different. You know, observing the audience in a different way. I'd be observing what they laugh at, what they don't laugh at, what fell like a flat, you know, pancake when I swore and that has happened.

Is there one hack or skill that uh that you would or strategy that what you would recommend that could improve our ability? Again, this sound it may be just it may be only for the neurotypical, but that would improve our ability to read the room either in an actual room or um as we're looking at, you know, global trends. Yeah. Yes. It's being aware it's a practice that we need to do. So again, it's like everything once you name it, it becomes more tangible in our mind.

And so there will be times where I um need to make a big decision on something and I'll I'll think, have I read the room on this? And what is the right room? And which room am I in? Often I'm in the wrong room. And if I'm in a room which is pretty small and everyone agrees with me, then I'm I know I'm going to make the wrong decision. I need to be in a room where there's people who have really quite different views to me and I've acknowledged them.

I've understood them. I've perhaps adjusted my position if I feel I need to and then I I go forward. Two questions I ask habitually at the end of a of an episode. First is is there something you were hoping to get to that we didn't. Uh no, I think we covered yeah everything that I would imagine and probably a bit more. So thanks. Great. And finally, can you just remind everybody of the name of your new book, your old book? Anything else you want us to know about?

Yeah, my new book is called Blind's Body: How to See What Others Miss. Um, and I built a scale or a survey that with one of the universities here. Anyone can go and do that for free and find out how they go with all of these blind spotting mindsets. And it's blindspotting.com.au. blindspotting.com.au. blindspotting.com.au. Kristen, thank you very much. Great job. Thank you. Thanks for the great conversation.