How to Live a Life You Won’t Regret at 80 - Bill Gurley

What got you into thinking about the What got you into thinking about the idea of career regret as somebody that's idea of career regret as somebody that's idea of career regret as somebody that's had a very seemingly successful and fun had a very seemingly successful and fun had a very seemingly successful and fun career? Why did you think about it? career? Why did you think about it? career? Why did you think about it? >> I um I used to so I spent 25 years as a >> I um I used to so I spent 25 years as a >> I um I used to so I spent 25 years as a venture capitalist and the four years venture capitalist and the four years venture capitalist and the four years before that as a sellside analyst on before that as a sellside analyst on before that as a sellside analyst on Wall Street and through that process I Wall Street and through that process I Wall Street and through that process I started writing as a way to started writing as a way to started writing as a way to differentiate myself and so I was a differentiate myself and so I was a differentiate myself and so I was a early blogger. It was actually a fact early blogger. It was actually a fact early blogger. It was actually a fact that's how old I am um when I started that's how old I am um when I started that's how old I am um when I started and I got in the habit of when I had and I got in the habit of when I had and I got in the habit of when I had ideas jotting them down and then you ideas jotting them down and then you ideas jotting them down and then you know either developing them a lot of know either developing them a lot of know either developing them a lot of them ended up just undeveloped but I them ended up just undeveloped but I them ended up just undeveloped but I would if I developed them they would would if I developed them they would would if I developed them they would become a blog post and there was a become a blog post and there was a become a blog post and there was a period in my career where I was reading period in my career where I was reading period in my career where I was reading a ton of biographies and I finished this a ton of biographies and I finished this a ton of biographies and I finished this third one and saw a through line with third one and saw a through line with third one and saw a through line with these other two from people that were in these other two from people that were in these other two from people that were in wildly different fields and I jotted wildly different fields and I jotted wildly different fields and I jotted those notes down and that thing kind of those notes down and that thing kind of those notes down and that thing kind of simmerred and breathed and and took on a simmerred and breathed and and took on a simmerred and breathed and and took on a little bit of a life and I got asked by little bit of a life and I got asked by little bit of a life and I got asked by the dean of the business school here in the dean of the business school here in the dean of the business school here in Austin at the University of Texas to Austin at the University of Texas to Austin at the University of Texas to talk to the NBA class one day and I was talk to the NBA class one day and I was talk to the NBA class one day and I was like, "Can I do this?" And he said, like, "Can I do this?" And he said, like, "Can I do this?" And he said, "Sure." So, I pulled it out and "Sure." So, I pulled it out and "Sure." So, I pulled it out and developed it a little bit as a developed it a little bit as a developed it a little bit as a PowerPoint presentation. Um, anyway, PowerPoint presentation. Um, anyway, PowerPoint presentation. Um, anyway, they posted that on YouTube. A few they posted that on YouTube. A few they posted that on YouTube. A few people noticed, some people that have people noticed, some people that have people noticed, some people that have been on your show, James Clear noticed been on your show, James Clear noticed been on your show, James Clear noticed >> and he posted it on his website and >> and he posted it on his website and >> and he posted it on his website and people started proddding me to develop people started proddding me to develop people started proddding me to develop it as a book. And um a few years ago, I it as a book. And um a few years ago, I it as a book. And um a few years ago, I decided to begin retirement as a venture decided to begin retirement as a venture decided to begin retirement as a venture capitalist. It actually takes a while capitalist. It actually takes a while capitalist. It actually takes a while unfortunately. And in that window, I unfortunately. And in that window, I unfortunately. And in that window, I thought about doing this. I thought thought about doing this. I thought thought about doing this. I thought about doing a book. And a lot of people about doing a book. And a lot of people about doing a book. And a lot of people wanted me to do a book. A lot of people wanted me to do a book. A lot of people wanted me to do a book. A lot of people wanted me to do a VC book or an wanted me to do a VC book or an wanted me to do a VC book or an investment book or a tell- all book on investment book or a tell- all book on investment book or a tell- all book on the Uber experience. the Uber experience. the Uber experience. >> And I was more drawn to this idea. >> And I was more drawn to this idea. >> And I was more drawn to this idea. >> Um, and a few other people prodded me >> Um, and a few other people prodded me >> Um, and a few other people prodded me who said, you know, like go go do and it who said, you know, like go go do and it who said, you know, like go go do and it felt more authentic. It felt like felt more authentic. It felt like felt more authentic. It felt like something that could have a bigger something that could have a bigger something that could have a bigger impact. impact. impact. >> And I was drawn to that at this moment >> And I was drawn to that at this moment >> And I was drawn to that at this moment in my life. I was drawn to this in my life. I was drawn to this in my life. I was drawn to this particular thing. So I spent like six particular thing. So I spent like six particular thing. So I spent like six years uh working with a coowwriter and years uh working with a coowwriter and years uh working with a coowwriter and researcher developing and developing it researcher developing and developing it researcher developing and developing it further and making it this way. But you further and making it this way. But you further and making it this way. But you use the word regret. We did along the use the word regret. We did along the use the word regret. We did along the way I launched a survey on survey monkey way I launched a survey on survey monkey way I launched a survey on survey monkey that said if you could go back and start that said if you could go back and start that said if you could go back and start over would you would you do a different over would you would you do a different over would you would you do a different career? And seven out of 10 people said career? And seven out of 10 people said career? And seven out of 10 people said yes. And I eventually took that to yes. And I eventually took that to yes. And I eventually took that to Wharton and people analytics and they Wharton and people analytics and they Wharton and people analytics and they did a more scientific version of it much did a more scientific version of it much did a more scientific version of it much broader audience and came back six out broader audience and came back six out broader audience and came back six out of 10 but very similar. Um and that of 10 but very similar. Um and that of 10 but very similar. Um and that notion of career regrets interesting. I notion of career regrets interesting. I notion of career regrets interesting. I had the opportunity to talk to Daniel had the opportunity to talk to Daniel had the opportunity to talk to Daniel Pink who you may know who wrote Pink who you may know who wrote Pink who you may know who wrote >> been on the show about regret >> been on the show about regret >> been on the show about regret >> about regret and in that book he says >> about regret and in that book he says >> about regret and in that book he says the biggest regrets people have and and the biggest regrets people have and and the biggest regrets people have and and and he showed me a graph. It actually and he showed me a graph. It actually and he showed me a graph. It actually gets worse as you get older towards end gets worse as you get older towards end gets worse as you get older towards end of life are regrets of inaction. He of life are regrets of inaction. He of life are regrets of inaction. He calls them boldness regrets. It's what calls them boldness regrets. It's what calls them boldness regrets. It's what you didn't do. you didn't do. you didn't do. >> Like humans are great at forgiving >> Like humans are great at forgiving >> Like humans are great at forgiving themselves. Made a mistake, learned from themselves. Made a mistake, learned from themselves. Made a mistake, learned from it, won't do it again. but they ruminate it, won't do it again. but they ruminate it, won't do it again. but they ruminate about what they didn't try. And so I, about what they didn't try. And so I, about what they didn't try. And so I, you know, I I've thought about this long you know, I I've thought about this long you know, I I've thought about this long and hard now since I've been working on and hard now since I've been working on and hard now since I've been working on it for six years. I fear our current it for six years. I fear our current it for six years. I fear our current education path has become a bit of a education path has become a bit of a education path has become a bit of a conveyor belt. People like that you conveyor belt. People like that you conveyor belt. People like that you we're pushing these children into this we're pushing these children into this we're pushing these children into this meat grinder and um and we're pushing meat grinder and um and we're pushing meat grinder and um and we're pushing them towards jobs that are, you know, them towards jobs that are, you know, them towards jobs that are, you know, typically called safe jobs, at least typically called safe jobs, at least typically called safe jobs, at least before AI. And um I think they're before AI. And um I think they're before AI. And um I think they're learning to grind. That's what Angela learning to grind. That's what Angela learning to grind. That's what Angela Duckworth's been saying now. You know, Duckworth's been saying now. You know, Duckworth's been saying now. You know, the perseverance part we've taught them. the perseverance part we've taught them. the perseverance part we've taught them. But if they don't have the love for it, But if they don't have the love for it, But if they don't have the love for it, it turns into burnout. And so the it turns into burnout. And so the it turns into burnout. And so the purpose of this book that I wrote is purpose of this book that I wrote is purpose of this book that I wrote is hopefully to give as as many people hopefully to give as as many people hopefully to give as as many people permission to go do what they want in permission to go do what they want in permission to go do what they want in life, you know. And and look, I'm sure life, you know. And and look, I'm sure life, you know. And and look, I'm sure it won't touch everybody, but if there's it won't touch everybody, but if there's it won't touch everybody, but if there's a subgroup of people who read this and a subgroup of people who read this and a subgroup of people who read this and have the conviction that they can go have the conviction that they can go have the conviction that they can go succeed in this thing they love, I think succeed in this thing they love, I think succeed in this thing they love, I think that'll be a huge impact on the world. that'll be a huge impact on the world. that'll be a huge impact on the world. Like I think the people that do that are Like I think the people that do that are Like I think the people that do that are the people, you know, these people like the people, you know, these people like the people, you know, these people like that are just love what they do. And not that are just love what they do. And not that are just love what they do. And not only are they more successful, but I only are they more successful, but I only are they more successful, but I think they radiate a bit, you know, and think they radiate a bit, you know, and think they radiate a bit, you know, and spread positive energy. spread positive energy. spread positive energy. >> Well, they're matic as well. They become >> Well, they're matic as well. They become >> Well, they're matic as well. They become a role model for other people. That's a role model for other people. That's a role model for other people. That's right. Go and do, oh, I he took a chance right. Go and do, oh, I he took a chance right. Go and do, oh, I he took a chance on that thing that he wanted to do and on that thing that he wanted to do and on that thing that he wanted to do and wow, it didn't work out and his life wow, it didn't work out and his life wow, it didn't work out and his life didn't blow up or it did work out and didn't blow up or it did work out and didn't blow up or it did work out and he's really happy. he's really happy. he's really happy. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Um, thinking about the fact that we seem >> Um, thinking about the fact that we seem >> Um, thinking about the fact that we seem to regret in action, boldness, regret. to regret in action, boldness, regret. to regret in action, boldness, regret. >> Yeah. Have you reflected on why you >> Yeah. Have you reflected on why you >> Yeah. Have you reflected on why you think that is? what it is in the the think that is? what it is in the the think that is? what it is in the the human mind that causes us to prefer decisiveness over uh prefer decisiveness over uh >> I was hoping to bring up one of the many >> I was hoping to bring up one of the many >> I was hoping to bring up one of the many biases I've read about in all the biases I've read about in all the biases I've read about in all the behavioral science books, but I I'm behavioral science books, but I I'm behavioral science books, but I I'm going to go to a different place, which going to go to a different place, which going to go to a different place, which is I think we ruminate a lot like like is I think we ruminate a lot like like is I think we ruminate a lot like like our brains, you know, constantly our brains, you know, constantly our brains, you know, constantly are are replaying things in our minds. are are replaying things in our minds. are are replaying things in our minds. Um, and maybe that's what dreaming is Um, and maybe that's what dreaming is Um, and maybe that's what dreaming is too. But I think because of that, it's too. But I think because of that, it's too. But I think because of that, it's very easy to imagine these whatifs like very easy to imagine these whatifs like very easy to imagine these whatifs like it's to build a story, especially a it's to build a story, especially a it's to build a story, especially a positive story around the what if I that positive story around the what if I that positive story around the what if I that didn't get done. And then you compare didn't get done. And then you compare didn't get done. And then you compare that to your current life. And that to your current life. And that to your current life. And unfortunately, that can create anxiety, unfortunately, that can create anxiety, unfortunately, that can create anxiety, but I do think that might be part of it. but I do think that might be part of it. but I do think that might be part of it. >> You'll be familiar with the zygic >> You'll be familiar with the zygic >> You'll be familiar with the zygic effect. effect. effect. >> I'm not. Tell me. >> I'm not. Tell me. >> I'm not. Tell me. >> Oh, cool. So, um, there was a >> Oh, cool. So, um, there was a >> Oh, cool. So, um, there was a psychologist who began studying waiting psychologist who began studying waiting psychologist who began studying waiting staff and they realized that these staff and they realized that these staff and they realized that these waiting staff had unbelievable recall waiting staff had unbelievable recall waiting staff had unbelievable recall while the tables were still open. while the tables were still open. while the tables were still open. >> You know, you've ever been to a >> You know, you've ever been to a >> You know, you've ever been to a restaurant and you see some weight restaurant and you see some weight restaurant and you see some weight waiter come up and they're stood, no waiter come up and they're stood, no waiter come up and they're stood, no pen, no pad, no iPad, hands behind their pen, no pad, no iPad, hands behind their pen, no pad, no iPad, hands behind their back and you go, "This guy's crazy. back and you go, "This guy's crazy. back and you go, "This guy's crazy. Like, he's insane. I'm definitely going Like, he's insane. I'm definitely going Like, he's insane. I'm definitely going to get something wrong." And sometimes to get something wrong." And sometimes to get something wrong." And sometimes you might go, I'm going to we'll take you might go, I'm going to we'll take you might go, I'm going to we'll take the sprouts, but I uh extra bacon uh no the sprouts, but I uh extra bacon uh no the sprouts, but I uh extra bacon uh no no goats cheese, but you want to just no goats cheese, but you want to just no goats cheese, but you want to just see if if all right, it's a no no pad. see if if all right, it's a no no pad. see if if all right, it's a no no pad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh the study ended up finding out uh >> And uh the study ended up finding out uh >> And uh the study ended up finding out uh the zygic effect, which is an openloop the zygic effect, which is an openloop the zygic effect, which is an openloop closed loop bias that exists inside of closed loop bias that exists inside of closed loop bias that exists inside of the human mind. Um while the tables were the human mind. Um while the tables were the human mind. Um while the tables were still open, the servers were able to still open, the servers were able to still open, the servers were able to recall what the orders were very recall what the orders were very recall what the orders were very closely. And as soon as they went that closely. And as soon as they went that closely. And as soon as they went that you nothing at all. You know a perfect you nothing at all. You know a perfect you nothing at all. You know a perfect example in almost everybody's life with example in almost everybody's life with example in almost everybody's life with this. I'm quite bad at this actually but this. I'm quite bad at this actually but this. I'm quite bad at this actually but it still holds true hotel rooms. Let's it still holds true hotel rooms. Let's it still holds true hotel rooms. Let's say that you're moving from city to city say that you're moving from city to city say that you're moving from city to city to city. You're not bad at remembering to city. You're not bad at remembering to city. You're not bad at remembering the hotel room of where you are now. the hotel room of where you are now. the hotel room of where you are now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But if I was to say where did you which >> But if I was to say where did you which >> But if I was to say where did you which hotel room did you stay in two hotels hotel room did you stay in two hotels hotel room did you stay in two hotels ago? I 735. ago? I 735. ago? I 735. I don't I have no idea. Um, it's the I don't I have no idea. Um, it's the I don't I have no idea. Um, it's the same reason why cliffhers work at the same reason why cliffhers work at the same reason why cliffhers work at the end of uh TV shows to get you to watch end of uh TV shows to get you to watch end of uh TV shows to get you to watch the next one. the next one. the next one. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> The open loop, the the human mind >> The open loop, the the human mind >> The open loop, the the human mind abhords an open loop. abhords an open loop. abhords an open loop. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And >> I get the sense that >> I get the sense that >> I get the sense that >> I see what you're saying. >> I see what you're saying. >> I see what you're saying. >> When it comes to boldness, regret, the >> When it comes to boldness, regret, the >> When it comes to boldness, regret, the main thing that you have is an open main thing that you have is an open main thing that you have is an open loop. Yeah. loop. Yeah. loop. Yeah. >> Now >> Now >> Now the human mind abhors open loops and the human mind abhors open loops and the human mind abhors open loops and uncertainty and ambiguity so much that uncertainty and ambiguity so much that uncertainty and ambiguity so much that we'd rather imagine a catastrophe than we'd rather imagine a catastrophe than we'd rather imagine a catastrophe than uh deal with the uncertainty. That's uh deal with the uncertainty. That's uh deal with the uncertainty. That's what a lot of anxiety sort of future what a lot of anxiety sort of future what a lot of anxiety sort of future projected regret kind of is, right? I projected regret kind of is, right? I projected regret kind of is, right? I don't know what's going to happen. So don't know what's going to happen. So don't know what's going to happen. So I'll imagine the worst thing and at I'll imagine the worst thing and at I'll imagine the worst thing and at least for a moment I have certainty even least for a moment I have certainty even least for a moment I have certainty even if the certainty is horrible. if the certainty is horrible. if the certainty is horrible. >> And uh this is the same thing I think in >> And uh this is the same thing I think in >> And uh this is the same thing I think in some regards but in reverse. What could some regards but in reverse. What could some regards but in reverse. What could have happened? Yeah. have happened? Yeah. have happened? Yeah. >> What could I have done? And there's >> What could I have done? And there's >> What could I have done? And there's there's an interesting way to flip it on there's an interesting way to flip it on there's an interesting way to flip it on its head. When Jeff Bezos was trying to its head. When Jeff Bezos was trying to its head. When Jeff Bezos was trying to convince himself to go start Amazon, he convince himself to go start Amazon, he convince himself to go start Amazon, he had this incredible job at De Shaw and had this incredible job at De Shaw and had this incredible job at De Shaw and David Shaw didn't want him to leave. So, David Shaw didn't want him to leave. So, David Shaw didn't want him to leave. So, he was trying to talk him out of going. he was trying to talk him out of going. he was trying to talk him out of going. And Bezos has this thing. It's on And Bezos has this thing. It's on And Bezos has this thing. It's on YouTube. You can go watch it, but he he YouTube. You can go watch it, but he he YouTube. You can go watch it, but he he um he self-proclaimed. It was very um he self-proclaimed. It was very um he self-proclaimed. It was very nerdy, but he called it the regret nerdy, but he called it the regret nerdy, but he called it the regret minimization framework. and he just minimization framework. and he just minimization framework. and he just imagined he's 80 years old and was imagined he's 80 years old and was imagined he's 80 years old and was trying to get advice from his trying to get advice from his trying to get advice from his 80-year-old self about what to do. So, 80-year-old self about what to do. So, 80-year-old self about what to do. So, he like put himself in that future place he like put himself in that future place he like put himself in that future place where he might have that that boldness where he might have that that boldness where he might have that that boldness regret. And in my own career, um people regret. And in my own career, um people regret. And in my own career, um people I I had two different um jobs I started I I had two different um jobs I started I I had two different um jobs I started and then switched before I got into and then switched before I got into and then switched before I got into venture capital, which was definitely my venture capital, which was definitely my venture capital, which was definitely my dream job. And in both of those cases, a dream job. And in both of those cases, a dream job. And in both of those cases, a couple years in, I paused and reflected, couple years in, I paused and reflected, couple years in, I paused and reflected, and I only thought about this as I've and I only thought about this as I've and I only thought about this as I've been um promoting the book. I paused and been um promoting the book. I paused and been um promoting the book. I paused and reflected, do I want to do this for 30 reflected, do I want to do this for 30 reflected, do I want to do this for 30 years? And was able to like fast forward years? And was able to like fast forward years? And was able to like fast forward that in my brain and I was unhappy with that in my brain and I was unhappy with that in my brain and I was unhappy with that that that reflection, reflection, reflection, >> which encouraged me to to think about >> which encouraged me to to think about >> which encouraged me to to think about what's next. when it comes to the regret what's next. when it comes to the regret what's next. when it comes to the regret minimization framework, which I love and minimization framework, which I love and minimization framework, which I love and I kind of can't believe isn't bigger. I kind of can't believe isn't bigger. I kind of can't believe isn't bigger. I'm aware it is among people that read I'm aware it is among people that read I'm aware it is among people that read the sort of stuff that you do or maybe I the sort of stuff that you do or maybe I the sort of stuff that you do or maybe I do, but do, but do, but >> uh it is a really wonderful idea and um >> uh it is a really wonderful idea and um >> uh it is a really wonderful idea and um I guess Jeff's got other stuff that he I guess Jeff's got other stuff that he I guess Jeff's got other stuff that he can be well known for. So perhaps, you can be well known for. So perhaps, you can be well known for. So perhaps, you know, know, know, >> well, it's it's actually quite >> well, it's it's actually quite >> well, it's it's actually quite synonymous with the uh the uh one of the synonymous with the uh the uh one of the synonymous with the uh the uh one of the seven habits of highly effective people seven habits of highly effective people seven habits of highly effective people begin with the end in mind. M begin with the end in mind. M begin with the end in mind. M >> it has a it has a similar kind of >> it has a it has a similar kind of >> it has a it has a similar kind of >> when looking at the regret minimization >> when looking at the regret minimization >> when looking at the regret minimization framework what are the things that framework what are the things that framework what are the things that >> what are the common pitfalls that you've >> what are the common pitfalls that you've >> what are the common pitfalls that you've seen people do even both inside of their seen people do even both inside of their seen people do even both inside of their career and outside of it you must have career and outside of it you must have career and outside of it you must have reflected on this a lot reflected on this a lot reflected on this a lot >> yeah I have one one thing that I think I >> yeah I have one one thing that I think I >> yeah I have one one thing that I think I especially with with the modern young especially with with the modern young especially with with the modern young people I think one problem that I think people I think one problem that I think people I think one problem that I think exists because we've built this I call exists because we've built this I call exists because we've built this I call it in my book a conveyor belt Jonathan it in my book a conveyor belt Jonathan it in my book a conveyor belt Jonathan height called it a regret or a I'm sorry height called it a regret or a I'm sorry height called it a regret or a I'm sorry a resume arms race. We've built this a resume arms race. We've built this a resume arms race. We've built this this this pipeline for these kids that's this this pipeline for these kids that's this this pipeline for these kids that's so intense. I think when they get to so intense. I think when they get to so intense. I think when they get to their first job, they feel like it's the their first job, they feel like it's the their first job, they feel like it's the result of all this investment result of all this investment result of all this investment and they feel like tweaking any way away and they feel like tweaking any way away and they feel like tweaking any way away from that is is is throwing away the from that is is is throwing away the from that is is is throwing away the investment. Does that make sense? investment. Does that make sense? investment. Does that make sense? >> Like a loss aversion type thing. >> Like a loss aversion type thing. >> Like a loss aversion type thing. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I invested all of this to >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I invested all of this to >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I invested all of this to get to this college to get to this get to this college to get to this get to this college to get to this degree and if I move away from that did degree and if I move away from that did degree and if I move away from that did I just waste all that time I just waste all that time I just waste all that time >> and um you know this is despite the fact >> and um you know this is despite the fact >> and um you know this is despite the fact that in in there's a lot of of studies that in in there's a lot of of studies that in in there's a lot of of studies that have been done like I won't get the that have been done like I won't get the that have been done like I won't get the numbers exactly right but like five numbers exactly right but like five numbers exactly right but like five years after college 40% of people are no years after college 40% of people are no years after college 40% of people are no longer working in the field that was longer working in the field that was longer working in the field that was their major their major their major >> and that number gets bigger at 10 but I >> and that number gets bigger at 10 but I >> and that number gets bigger at 10 but I but it doesn't mean that they don't feel but it doesn't mean that they don't feel but it doesn't mean that they don't feel trapped or that that number might not be trapped or that that number might not be trapped or that that number might not be higher if they didn't feel trapped. higher if they didn't feel trapped. higher if they didn't feel trapped. >> And when I mention this to young people >> And when I mention this to young people >> And when I mention this to young people that there there is this weight there is that there there is this weight there is that there there is this weight there is this weight they feel this weight they feel this weight they feel >> like an obligation to to especially >> like an obligation to to especially >> like an obligation to to especially >> decisions that they locked in when they >> decisions that they locked in when they >> decisions that they locked in when they were 17. were 17. were 17. >> Yes. Well, and that's another thing in >> Yes. Well, and that's another thing in >> Yes. Well, and that's another thing in when when I was younger, the colleges when when I was younger, the colleges when when I was younger, the colleges wouldn't let you declare a major until wouldn't let you declare a major until wouldn't let you declare a major until the end of your sophomore year. many the end of your sophomore year. many the end of your sophomore year. many schools you have to apply to the major schools you have to apply to the major schools you have to apply to the major now. So we've moved the decision of what now. So we've moved the decision of what now. So we've moved the decision of what major are you going to pick from the end major are you going to pick from the end major are you going to pick from the end of your sophomore year to the end of of your sophomore year to the end of of your sophomore year to the end of your junior year in high school. your junior year in high school. your junior year in high school. like that's, you know, three years like that's, you know, three years like that's, you know, three years forward and less time to there's a lot forward and less time to there's a lot forward and less time to there's a lot of people um a lot of smart people that of people um a lot of smart people that of people um a lot of smart people that just say we we don't allow children just say we we don't allow children just say we we don't allow children enough time to explore y and you know enough time to explore y and you know enough time to explore y and you know height says it he has a chapter called height says it he has a chapter called height says it he has a chapter called let them or the loss of play or let them or the loss of play or let them or the loss of play or something um Rick Rubin's been pounding something um Rick Rubin's been pounding something um Rick Rubin's been pounding on this he talks about it in his on this he talks about it in his on this he talks about it in his >> we looked at Gene Twangi's work >> we looked at Gene Twangi's work >> we looked at Gene Twangi's work generations generations generations >> does is that another one >> does is that another one >> does is that another one >> yeah So, generations is is really >> yeah So, generations is is really >> yeah So, generations is is really fascinating. This stinks of you. Highly fascinating. This stinks of you. Highly fascinating. This stinks of you. Highly recommend it. You really recommend it. You really recommend it. You really >> Okay, I will. I will. >> Okay, I will. I will. >> Okay, I will. I will. >> Um, and she talks about extended >> Um, and she talks about extended >> Um, and she talks about extended adolescence. Yeah. Sort of twins with adolescence. Yeah. Sort of twins with adolescence. Yeah. Sort of twins with some of Heidi's stuff. You've got a real some of Heidi's stuff. You've got a real some of Heidi's stuff. You've got a real interesting duality going on, which is interesting duality going on, which is interesting duality going on, which is in one world, in one world, in one world, >> you've got these kids that are sort of >> you've got these kids that are sort of >> you've got these kids that are sort of being forced to become adults more being forced to become adults more being forced to become adults more quickly. Yes. quickly. Yes. quickly. Yes. >> Than ever before, where we expect you to >> Than ever before, where we expect you to >> Than ever before, where we expect you to know what you potentially the set of know what you potentially the set of know what you potentially the set of railroad tracks for the rest of your railroad tracks for the rest of your railroad tracks for the rest of your life, the next 30 years of your career. life, the next 30 years of your career. life, the next 30 years of your career. and you're only 17 and you got to know and you're only 17 and you got to know and you're only 17 and you got to know and apply. And then at the same time, and apply. And then at the same time, and apply. And then at the same time, kids are moving out of the house later. kids are moving out of the house later. kids are moving out of the house later. They're getting their driver's licenses They're getting their driver's licenses They're getting their driver's licenses later. They're getting employment later. later. They're getting employment later. later. They're getting employment later. They're getting into relationships at They're getting into relationships at They're getting into relationships at lower rates. Less alcohol, less casual. lower rates. Less alcohol, less casual. lower rates. Less alcohol, less casual. All of the things that we would have All of the things that we would have All of the things that we would have typically associated with being an adult typically associated with being an adult typically associated with being an adult are not present as we're trying to force are not present as we're trying to force are not present as we're trying to force structural adulthood onto them. was structural adulthood onto them. was structural adulthood onto them. was socially very immature, professionally socially very immature, professionally socially very immature, professionally expedited, expedited, expedited, >> and he ties them together. It's just >> and he ties them together. It's just >> and he ties them together. It's just because because because >> Jean Gene Twangi. Yeah, for sure. I >> Jean Gene Twangi. Yeah, for sure. I >> Jean Gene Twangi. Yeah, for sure. I think that Oh, actually, no, no, no, no, think that Oh, actually, no, no, no, no, think that Oh, actually, no, no, no, no, no. no. no. >> Great point. And I don't know, and I >> Great point. And I don't know, and I >> Great point. And I don't know, and I don't think so. Um, now there might be don't think so. Um, now there might be don't think so. Um, now there might be some rebellion going on that ah god, some rebellion going on that ah god, some rebellion going on that ah god, like everything just feels like I I need like everything just feels like I I need like everything just feels like I I need to get my act together. I how can I do to get my act together. I how can I do to get my act together. I how can I do these other things? I just so much of my these other things? I just so much of my these other things? I just so much of my cognitive real estate is taken up. cognitive real estate is taken up. cognitive real estate is taken up. >> I could see that. >> I could see that. >> I could see that. >> Maybe that would be a compensator, read. >> Maybe that would be a compensator, read. >> Maybe that would be a compensator, read. Yeah. Um, like I I mentioned, I think uh Yeah. Um, like I I mentioned, I think uh Yeah. Um, like I I mentioned, I think uh when when about 10 years after Duckworth when when about 10 years after Duckworth when when about 10 years after Duckworth wrote Grit, she said that she wished she wrote Grit, she said that she wished she wrote Grit, she said that she wished she had positioned it as 50/50 passion and had positioned it as 50/50 passion and had positioned it as 50/50 passion and perseverance. And she if she could do it perseverance. And she if she could do it perseverance. And she if she could do it again, she'd put more on the passion again, she'd put more on the passion again, she'd put more on the passion because she thinks we taught a whole because she thinks we taught a whole because she thinks we taught a whole generation of of the high performer generation of of the high performer generation of of the high performer children how to grind. children how to grind. children how to grind. >> Like we taught them to persevere, which >> Like we taught them to persevere, which >> Like we taught them to persevere, which is is is >> Well, and so I get that. I grit was a >> Well, and so I get that. I grit was a >> Well, and so I get that. I grit was a massive book. I don't think that she massive book. I don't think that she massive book. I don't think that she should lay at the feet of her pen the should lay at the feet of her pen the should lay at the feet of her pen the the the issues of this stuff, but I the the issues of this stuff, but I the the issues of this stuff, but I think one of the reasons why from a think one of the reasons why from a think one of the reasons why from a personal development standpoint it makes personal development standpoint it makes personal development standpoint it makes it's a bit more seductive to overindex it's a bit more seductive to overindex it's a bit more seductive to overindex on the perseverance than the passion is on the perseverance than the passion is on the perseverance than the passion is that passion feels more difficult to that passion feels more difficult to that passion feels more difficult to engineer. engineer. engineer. >> Fair enough. >> Fair enough. >> Fair enough. >> Uh so, oh, how do I get the thing, the >> Uh so, oh, how do I get the thing, the >> Uh so, oh, how do I get the thing, the line, the stuff right? It feels a bit line, the stuff right? It feels a bit line, the stuff right? It feels a bit more egalitarian. more egalitarian. more egalitarian. >> Yes. to say no matter what it is you're >> Yes. to say no matter what it is you're >> Yes. to say no matter what it is you're doing if you hold hard enough you can doing if you hold hard enough you can doing if you hold hard enough you can get through get through get through >> I do think it is the hardest question >> I do think it is the hardest question >> I do think it is the hardest question >> what is >> what is >> what is >> finding it like finding it and knowing >> finding it like finding it and knowing >> finding it like finding it and knowing it you know knowing it's a little easier it you know knowing it's a little easier it you know knowing it's a little easier but finding there are a lot of but finding there are a lot of but finding there are a lot of 17year-olds who appropriately if you ask 17year-olds who appropriately if you ask 17year-olds who appropriately if you ask them what is your passion what do you them what is your passion what do you them what is your passion what do you want to do they appropriately say I want to do they appropriately say I want to do they appropriately say I don't know don't know don't know >> because it's the truth they don't know >> because it's the truth they don't know >> because it's the truth they don't know >> but I think that's okay it's just we >> but I think that's okay it's just we >> but I think that's okay it's just we shouldn't force the question upon shouldn't force the question upon shouldn't force the question upon You've got this line, life is a use it You've got this line, life is a use it You've got this line, life is a use it or lose it proposition. or lose it proposition. or lose it proposition. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's that mean? >> What's that mean? >> What's that mean? >> Well, I mean, it's tied to the the the >> Well, I mean, it's tied to the the the >> Well, I mean, it's tied to the the the the boldness regret, right? Like you're the boldness regret, right? Like you're the boldness regret, right? Like you're going to get to the end and and then going to get to the end and and then going to get to the end and and then it's done. And and only if you think in it's done. And and only if you think in it's done. And and only if you think in the way that Bezos did um with his the way that Bezos did um with his the way that Bezos did um with his regret minimization framework are you regret minimization framework are you regret minimization framework are you going to hold yourself accountable um going to hold yourself accountable um going to hold yourself accountable um for that line. you know that the the for that line. you know that the the for that line. you know that the the recognition that that life moves much recognition that that life moves much recognition that that life moves much faster than any of us realize and then faster than any of us realize and then faster than any of us realize and then it's done and and and you can get locked it's done and and and you can get locked it's done and and and you can get locked in even sooner if you spend up to your in even sooner if you spend up to your in even sooner if you spend up to your limits. You can you can you can freeze limits. You can you can you can freeze limits. You can you can you can freeze yourself in a job like that you can't yourself in a job like that you can't yourself in a job like that you can't leave and you can do it with personal leave and you can do it with personal leave and you can do it with personal commitments as well. I my my second commitments as well. I my my second commitments as well. I my my second career was, you know, going to Wall career was, you know, going to Wall career was, you know, going to Wall Street and I can't tell you the number Street and I can't tell you the number Street and I can't tell you the number of people I worked in with Wall Street of people I worked in with Wall Street of people I worked in with Wall Street that had for their age ridiculously high that had for their age ridiculously high that had for their age ridiculously high salaries, but they had to place in the salaries, but they had to place in the salaries, but they had to place in the Hamptons, the summer lease, like they Hamptons, the summer lease, like they Hamptons, the summer lease, like they tried to get into the membership club. tried to get into the membership club. tried to get into the membership club. Like they spent right up to the limit Like they spent right up to the limit Like they spent right up to the limit and now you can't switch, and now you can't switch, and now you can't switch, >> you know? You can't switch. >> you know? You can't switch. >> you know? You can't switch. >> Yeah. You're locked in at this very high >> Yeah. You're locked in at this very high >> Yeah. You're locked in at this very high burn rate, which means you need to keep burn rate, which means you need to keep burn rate, which means you need to keep pouring fuel in the top of it. pouring fuel in the top of it. pouring fuel in the top of it. >> Yes. Yes. I I have like for young adults >> Yes. Yes. I I have like for young adults >> Yes. Yes. I I have like for young adults that are lucky enough to have a job with that are lucky enough to have a job with that are lucky enough to have a job with a decent salary. I would heavily a decent salary. I would heavily a decent salary. I would heavily encourage them not to spend against it encourage them not to spend against it encourage them not to spend against it just so they can have the flexibility to just so they can have the flexibility to just so they can have the flexibility to do other things. Move cities, change do other things. Move cities, change do other things. Move cities, change jobs. jobs. jobs. >> Um all of which may be the right path >> Um all of which may be the right path >> Um all of which may be the right path for them. for them. for them. >> We'll get back to talking in just one >> We'll get back to talking in just one >> We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been second, but first, if you have been second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your feeling a bit sluggish, your feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the testosterone levels might be the testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your problem. They play a huge role in your problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your energy, your focus, and your energy, your focus, and your performance. But most people have no performance. But most people have no performance. But most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if idea where theirs are or what to do if idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off. Which is why I something's off. Which is why I something's off. Which is why I partnered with Function because I wanted partnered with Function because I wanted partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to a smarter and more comprehensive way to a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening actually understand what's happening actually understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, they inside of my body. Twice a year, they inside of my body. Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over a 100 run lab tests that monitor over a 100 run lab tests that monitor over a 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert biomarkers. They've got a team of expert biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and physicians that analyze the data and physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve give you actionable advice to improve give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. And seeing your health and lifespan. And seeing your health and lifespan. And seeing your testosterone levels and tons of your testosterone levels and tons of your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course other biomarkers charted over the course other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to of a year with actionable insights to of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear actually improve them gives you a clear actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. Getting path to making your life better. Getting path to making your life better. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like your blood work drawn and analyzed like your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but this would usually cost thousands, but this would usually cost thousands, but with function it's just $499. And right with function it's just $499. And right with function it's just $499. And right now you can get $100 off, bringing it now you can get $100 off, bringing it now you can get $100 off, bringing it down to $399 bucks. Get the exact same down to $399 bucks. Get the exact same down to $399 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that blood panels that I get and save that blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the $100 by going to the link in the $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Yeah. The It's weird, isn't it? Because Yeah. The It's weird, isn't it? Because flexibility is actually a really flexibility is actually a really flexibility is actually a really difficult thing to show off. It It difficult thing to show off. It It difficult thing to show off. It It doesn't doesn't doesn't And even flexibility is only showoffable And even flexibility is only showoffable And even flexibility is only showoffable in so much as you can take a photo of in so much as you can take a photo of in so much as you can take a photo of you on a plane or you at a holiday or you on a plane or you at a holiday or you on a plane or you at a holiday or you which again is not quite the you which again is not quite the you which again is not quite the flexibility that that we're talking flexibility that that we're talking flexibility that that we're talking about here. Yeah. about here. Yeah. about here. Yeah. >> So, um I've always thought about this >> So, um I've always thought about this >> So, um I've always thought about this the difference between hidden and the difference between hidden and the difference between hidden and observable metrics. observable metrics. observable metrics. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We'll often trade a hidden metric for an >> We'll often trade a hidden metric for an >> We'll often trade a hidden metric for an observable one. observable one. observable one. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> You know, trade the quality of our sleep >> You know, trade the quality of our sleep >> You know, trade the quality of our sleep for a slightly bigger pay packet. for a slightly bigger pay packet. for a slightly bigger pay packet. >> We'll trade the hours of uh peace that >> We'll trade the hours of uh peace that >> We'll trade the hours of uh peace that we have on a Saturday. Yeah. we have on a Saturday. Yeah. we have on a Saturday. Yeah. >> For uh position uh improvement. will >> For uh position uh improvement. will >> For uh position uh improvement. will trade go. I mean, you know, some people trade go. I mean, you know, some people trade go. I mean, you know, some people will trade a caring, supportive wife for will trade a caring, supportive wife for will trade a caring, supportive wife for a very difficult, younger, hot one. Um, a very difficult, younger, hot one. Um, a very difficult, younger, hot one. Um, you know, the the the trades are you know, the the the trades are you know, the the the trades are everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. >> Yes. I I I think that's a good framing. >> Yes. I I I think that's a good framing. >> Yes. I I I think that's a good framing. >> Mhm. So, is >> Mhm. So, is >> Mhm. So, is many people, especially people who maybe many people, especially people who maybe many people, especially people who maybe aren't so fired up with their jobs and aren't so fired up with their jobs and aren't so fired up with their jobs and their careers, might think, I can get my their careers, might think, I can get my their careers, might think, I can get my fulfillment elsewhere. Why why why fulfillment elsewhere. Why why why fulfillment elsewhere. Why why why should I care about my my career is just should I care about my my career is just should I care about my my career is just the it's just the thing that I do from 9 the it's just the thing that I do from 9 the it's just the thing that I do from 9 to5 or whatever 8 to 4 every day. Uh why to5 or whatever 8 to 4 every day. Uh why to5 or whatever 8 to 4 every day. Uh why why should I try and optimize that? Is why should I try and optimize that? Is why should I try and optimize that? Is is being fulfilled at work a luxury? Um, is being fulfilled at work a luxury? Um, is being fulfilled at work a luxury? Um, I guess what I would say is I have a I guess what I would say is I have a I guess what I would say is I have a immense amount of respect for someone immense amount of respect for someone immense amount of respect for someone who adopts that mindset, the one you who adopts that mindset, the one you who adopts that mindset, the one you described, especially if they're really described, especially if they're really described, especially if they're really thriving in something that may not may thriving in something that may not may thriving in something that may not may they may not perceive to be an they may not perceive to be an they may not perceive to be an occupation. That could be a religious occupation. That could be a religious occupation. That could be a religious community. It could be volunteer work community. It could be volunteer work community. It could be volunteer work that they do. Um, I would highlight to that they do. Um, I would highlight to that they do. Um, I would highlight to them there might be a career in that, them there might be a career in that, them there might be a career in that, you know, like if they wanted to be you know, like if they wanted to be you know, like if they wanted to be around it all the time, but my main goal around it all the time, but my main goal around it all the time, but my main goal isn't to tell those people they aren't isn't to tell those people they aren't isn't to tell those people they aren't being successful. Like if they're happy being successful. Like if they're happy being successful. Like if they're happy and passionate about that lifestyle, and passionate about that lifestyle, and passionate about that lifestyle, like that's great. I'm not I'm not like that's great. I'm not I'm not like that's great. I'm not I'm not casting any any shadow on that casting any any shadow on that casting any any shadow on that whatsoever. Um, if you are the type of whatsoever. Um, if you are the type of whatsoever. Um, if you are the type of person that is either unhappy with your person that is either unhappy with your person that is either unhappy with your work, like so much so that it's work, like so much so that it's work, like so much so that it's impacting your quality of life, or even impacting your quality of life, or even impacting your quality of life, or even better, if you're someone that has this better, if you're someone that has this better, if you're someone that has this inkling, this little notion in their inkling, this little notion in their inkling, this little notion in their brain, but maybe doesn't have the brain, but maybe doesn't have the brain, but maybe doesn't have the confidence or the permission, they don't confidence or the permission, they don't confidence or the permission, they don't feel like they have the permission to go feel like they have the permission to go feel like they have the permission to go do it. That's who I want to read my do it. That's who I want to read my do it. That's who I want to read my book. Like, that's who I really really book. Like, that's who I really really book. Like, that's who I really really want to read my book. Um, there's this want to read my book. Um, there's this want to read my book. Um, there's this there's a there's a great story that there's a there's a great story that there's a there's a great story that there's a couple of these actually, but there's a couple of these actually, but there's a couple of these actually, but I I'll I'll I'll choose the Steve Harvey I I'll I'll I'll choose the Steve Harvey I I'll I'll I'll choose the Steve Harvey one. There's a there I don't know if one. There's a there I don't know if one. There's a there I don't know if you've seen this, but you know who Steve you've seen this, but you know who Steve you've seen this, but you know who Steve Harvey is, the comedian who does the Harvey is, the comedian who does the Harvey is, the comedian who does the talk does Family Feud now. talk does Family Feud now. talk does Family Feud now. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um, he tells this story did I think he >> Um, he tells this story did I think he >> Um, he tells this story did I think he told it on Oprah that when he was seven, told it on Oprah that when he was seven, told it on Oprah that when he was seven, the teacher asked them to for as an the teacher asked them to for as an the teacher asked them to for as an exercise to write down a sheet of paper exercise to write down a sheet of paper exercise to write down a sheet of paper what they wanted to be when they grew what they wanted to be when they grew what they wanted to be when they grew up. and he he claims he got called last up. and he he claims he got called last up. and he he claims he got called last and he teacher said said but the others and he teacher said said but the others and he teacher said said but the others she read but for his the teacher made she read but for his the teacher made she read but for his the teacher made him come to the front of the room and him come to the front of the room and him come to the front of the room and read it out loud and apparently he had a read it out loud and apparently he had a read it out loud and apparently he had a stuttering problem but he it said I want stuttering problem but he it said I want stuttering problem but he it said I want to be on TV and she thought he was like to be on TV and she thought he was like to be on TV and she thought he was like not taking the the the exercise not taking the the the exercise not taking the the the exercise seriously and she condemned him for seriously and she condemned him for seriously and she condemned him for writing that so much so that she called writing that so much so that she called writing that so much so that she called her his mother and he got in trouble her his mother and he got in trouble her his mother and he got in trouble when he got home. So, he got sent to his when he got home. So, he got sent to his when he got home. So, he got sent to his room. He's worried that his dad's going room. He's worried that his dad's going room. He's worried that his dad's going to come in there and read him the riot to come in there and read him the riot to come in there and read him the riot act. And his dad comes in and sits next act. And his dad comes in and sits next act. And his dad comes in and sits next to him. Here's the whole story. And he to him. Here's the whole story. And he to him. Here's the whole story. And he says, "Here's what we're going to do. says, "Here's what we're going to do. says, "Here's what we're going to do. Let's take that piece of paper and put Let's take that piece of paper and put Let's take that piece of paper and put it right here in your bedstand. And I it right here in your bedstand. And I it right here in your bedstand. And I want you to read it every single day." want you to read it every single day." want you to read it every single day." And and you hear a story like that, you And and you hear a story like that, you And and you hear a story like that, you know, and I don't think there there's a know, and I don't think there there's a know, and I don't think there there's a lot of people I think that that's a very lot of people I think that that's a very lot of people I think that that's a very hard thing to do. I think that for hard thing to do. I think that for hard thing to do. I think that for parents and I I'm a parent of three and parents and I I'm a parent of three and parents and I I'm a parent of three and I've lived through this phase that we're I've lived through this phase that we're I've lived through this phase that we're talking about your intuition as a parent talking about your intuition as a parent talking about your intuition as a parent like that some in your DNA somewhere is like that some in your DNA somewhere is like that some in your DNA somewhere is to look after the economic welfare of to look after the economic welfare of to look after the economic welfare of this child you want them to live a good this child you want them to live a good this child you want them to live a good life and it's very hard not to associate life and it's very hard not to associate life and it's very hard not to associate that mostly with money that mostly with money that mostly with money >> and so this thing that Steve Harvey's >> and so this thing that Steve Harvey's >> and so this thing that Steve Harvey's dad did for him I think is kind of a dad did for him I think is kind of a dad did for him I think is kind of a really like a very unique thing. I think really like a very unique thing. I think really like a very unique thing. I think it's very hard to do and and I hear a it's very hard to do and and I hear a it's very hard to do and and I hear a story McConnA has a very similar story story McConnA has a very similar story story McConnA has a very similar story about when he switched from law school about when he switched from law school about when he switched from law school to film school. His dad told him, "Well, to film school. His dad told him, "Well, to film school. His dad told him, "Well, don't halfass it." And he like he said don't halfass it." And he like he said don't halfass it." And he like he said that was the last thing he he thought that was the last thing he he thought that was the last thing he he thought his dad was going to yell at him and his his dad was going to yell at him and his his dad was going to yell at him and his dad kind of gave him like this push. And dad kind of gave him like this push. And dad kind of gave him like this push. And that's what I want the book to do. Like that's what I want the book to do. Like that's what I want the book to do. Like if someone has that inkling that they if someone has that inkling that they if someone has that inkling that they want to go do something that the world want to go do something that the world want to go do something that the world may not think they're capable of or may not think they're capable of or may not think they're capable of or think they should do, I I I'd love to think they should do, I I I'd love to think they should do, I I I'd love to unlock this latent human potential. unlock this latent human potential. unlock this latent human potential. >> You know what it comes back to? It's >> You know what it comes back to? It's >> You know what it comes back to? It's quantifiable observant observable and quantifiable observant observable and quantifiable observant observable and hidden metrics. Again, the the hidden metrics. Again, the the hidden metrics. Again, the the observable metric of financially free. observable metric of financially free. observable metric of financially free. This is how much they earn. This is the This is how much they earn. This is the This is how much they earn. This is the track that they would be on. Hidden track that they would be on. Hidden track that they would be on. Hidden metric, how passionate are they? Are metric, how passionate are they? Are metric, how passionate are they? Are they happy when they're 35? they happy when they're 35? they happy when they're 35? >> Yeah. Uh so I guess >> Yeah. Uh so I guess >> Yeah. Uh so I guess one of the situations that so many one of the situations that so many one of the situations that so many people must be in is someone people must be in is someone people must be in is someone one version of them successfully pivots one version of them successfully pivots one version of them successfully pivots and another version of them stays stuck and another version of them stays stuck and another version of them stays stuck for life. for life. for life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why does some people successfully pivot >> Why does some people successfully pivot >> Why does some people successfully pivot and and and others end up getting stuck? and and and others end up getting stuck? and and and others end up getting stuck? >> Well, I mean there's a there's you could >> Well, I mean there's a there's you could >> Well, I mean there's a there's you could come up with a number of things. One of come up with a number of things. One of come up with a number of things. One of them is financial, which we've we've them is financial, which we've we've them is financial, which we've we've talked about. You could be overspending. talked about. You could be overspending. talked about. You could be overspending. There's a there's a different case where There's a there's a different case where There's a there's a different case where you're just you're you're stuck you're just you're you're stuck you're just you're you're stuck financially like you need you're living financially like you need you're living financially like you need you're living handtomouth. Um there's a I have a I handtomouth. Um there's a I have a I handtomouth. Um there's a I have a I have a profile in the book of Jen Atkin have a profile in the book of Jen Atkin have a profile in the book of Jen Atkin who I don't know if you know she is who I don't know if you know she is who I don't know if you know she is probably the mo most successful hair probably the mo most successful hair probably the mo most successful hair stylist of all time like went not only stylist of all time like went not only stylist of all time like went not only achieved touched the top rail of that achieved touched the top rail of that achieved touched the top rail of that but then launched beauty products sold but then launched beauty products sold but then launched beauty products sold that company but she moved to LA with that company but she moved to LA with that company but she moved to LA with $300 in her pocket. And that's not to $300 in her pocket. And that's not to $300 in her pocket. And that's not to say anyone can do that, but like there say anyone can do that, but like there say anyone can do that, but like there there are stories of people with near there are stories of people with near there are stories of people with near nothing starting on the very bottom rung nothing starting on the very bottom rung nothing starting on the very bottom rung and finding their way to be successful. and finding their way to be successful. and finding their way to be successful. There's this classic meme of starting in There's this classic meme of starting in There's this classic meme of starting in the mail room in Hollywood and David the mail room in Hollywood and David the mail room in Hollywood and David Geffen and and Barry Dillard, all these Geffen and and Barry Dillard, all these Geffen and and Barry Dillard, all these people started in the mail room. You people started in the mail room. You people started in the mail room. You know, it's it's about as low a rung as know, it's it's about as low a rung as know, it's it's about as low a rung as you have in that business. So, I I think you have in that business. So, I I think you have in that business. So, I I think it's possible, but you may feel stuck it's possible, but you may feel stuck it's possible, but you may feel stuck >> financially. you may feel that you can't >> financially. you may feel that you can't >> financially. you may feel that you can't get there. Um, and then the other one, get there. Um, and then the other one, get there. Um, and then the other one, you know, it it could be like this you know, it it could be like this you know, it it could be like this perception MCA had this perception that perception MCA had this perception that perception MCA had this perception that his father wanted him to be a lawyer. his father wanted him to be a lawyer. his father wanted him to be a lawyer. It's probably just that Matthew had told It's probably just that Matthew had told It's probably just that Matthew had told him he was going to be a lawyer and he him he was going to be a lawyer and he him he was going to be a lawyer and he was supporting that. But but that weight was supporting that. But but that weight was supporting that. But but that weight can be there too. like you may feel I can be there too. like you may feel I can be there too. like you may feel I think there are certain um there are think there are certain um there are think there are certain um there are certain uh cultures where where like certain uh cultures where where like certain uh cultures where where like being a doctor is considered really in being a doctor is considered really in being a doctor is considered really in Russia like being an academic was so you Russia like being an academic was so you Russia like being an academic was so you may you may feel pressure from your may you may feel pressure from your may you may feel pressure from your family as this is the thing people in my family as this is the thing people in my family as this is the thing people in my family do and I've seen that and I've family do and I've seen that and I've family do and I've seen that and I've met people who have that weight upon met people who have that weight upon met people who have that weight upon them those are all kind of things that them those are all kind of things that them those are all kind of things that could restrict this movement could restrict this movement could restrict this movement >> what about the fear I there has to be a >> what about the fear I there has to be a >> what about the fear I there has to be a huge chunk chunk of people that just I huge chunk chunk of people that just I huge chunk chunk of people that just I what if this doesn't work? It's sort of what if this doesn't work? It's sort of what if this doesn't work? It's sort of ambient. Yes. ambient. Yes. ambient. Yes. >> Ephemeral >> Ephemeral >> Ephemeral this fugue fog thing that's come down on this fugue fog thing that's come down on this fugue fog thing that's come down on them. But but if you if you'll allow me them. But but if you if you'll allow me them. But but if you if you'll allow me like to give you a little history of how like to give you a little history of how like to give you a little history of how um or why I would say I spent I spent um or why I would say I spent I spent um or why I would say I spent I spent six years turning the uh the original six years turning the uh the original six years turning the uh the original presentation into a book and I I I had presentation into a book and I I I had presentation into a book and I I I had this thing I really wanted to achieve this thing I really wanted to achieve this thing I really wanted to achieve which was to embed as much stories and which was to embed as much stories and which was to embed as much stories and narrative into it as possible. And um I narrative into it as possible. And um I narrative into it as possible. And um I was listening I know you've had Morgan was listening I know you've had Morgan was listening I know you've had Morgan on how on how on how >> he's the absolute goat. and he was on um >> he's the absolute goat. and he was on um >> he's the absolute goat. and he was on um he was on a podcast called Why We Write he was on a podcast called Why We Write he was on a podcast called Why We Write talking about talking about talking about >> David Pearl >> David Pearl >> David Pearl >> the power of of narrative. >> the power of of narrative. >> the power of of narrative. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so the book is divided it's >> And so the book is divided it's >> And so the book is divided it's structured unlike most books. It's structured unlike most books. It's structured unlike most books. It's divided into two parts but they interle divided into two parts but they interle divided into two parts but they interle and so every other chapter is a Atlantic and so every other chapter is a Atlantic and so every other chapter is a Atlantic size article about someone that started size article about someone that started size article about someone that started on the bottom rung with intention and on the bottom rung with intention and on the bottom rung with intention and made it to the top. And the reason I made it to the top. And the reason I made it to the top. And the reason I wanted to include those is precisely for wanted to include those is precisely for wanted to include those is precisely for the reason Morgan talks about which is I the reason Morgan talks about which is I the reason Morgan talks about which is I think these things stick in your brain think these things stick in your brain think these things stick in your brain more like a lot of the books in the more like a lot of the books in the more like a lot of the books in the category that have done extremely well category that have done extremely well category that have done extremely well in career um read like a textbook do a in career um read like a textbook do a in career um read like a textbook do a do a do b then do c do a do b then do c do a do b then do c they don't have this kind of they don't have this kind of they don't have this kind of spirituality to them that I think can spirituality to them that I think can spirituality to them that I think can infect the brain a little bit more does infect the brain a little bit more does infect the brain a little bit more does that make sense that make sense that make sense >> it's 100% correct I mean Ben Shapiro 's >> it's 100% correct I mean Ben Shapiro 's >> it's 100% correct I mean Ben Shapiro 's favorite famous line of facts don't care favorite famous line of facts don't care favorite famous line of facts don't care about your feelings is as backward as it about your feelings is as backward as it about your feelings is as backward as it could be that feelings don't give a could be that feelings don't give a could be that feelings don't give a single [ __ ] about the fact. single [ __ ] about the fact. single [ __ ] about the fact. >> Yeah. So we have eight nine or 10 I I >> Yeah. So we have eight nine or 10 I I >> Yeah. So we have eight nine or 10 I I should know the exact number but I can't should know the exact number but I can't should know the exact number but I can't recall right now of these profiles and I recall right now of these profiles and I recall right now of these profiles and I alternate them with the principles and alternate them with the principles and alternate them with the principles and it's I wasn't thought about it like it's I wasn't thought about it like it's I wasn't thought about it like candy and vegetables you know or candy and vegetables you know or candy and vegetables you know or something but you get you get some of something but you get you get some of something but you get you get some of both and uh both and uh both and uh >> it brings the ideas to life. >> it brings the ideas to life. >> it brings the ideas to life. >> Yes. And I think this the reason I told >> Yes. And I think this the reason I told >> Yes. And I think this the reason I told that long story was an answer to your that long story was an answer to your that long story was an answer to your question about fear. I think seeing this question about fear. I think seeing this question about fear. I think seeing this many stories and they're all I by the many stories and they're all I by the many stories and they're all I by the way I chose every one of them from a way I chose every one of them from a way I chose every one of them from a field that your parents would probably field that your parents would probably field that your parents would probably tell you not to go into. I intentionally tell you not to go into. I intentionally tell you not to go into. I intentionally skipped you know investment bankers and skipped you know investment bankers and skipped you know investment bankers and and doctors. and doctors. and doctors. >> Yeah. All the stuff that everyone knows >> Yeah. All the stuff that everyone knows >> Yeah. All the stuff that everyone knows is is is is is is >> nice linear progression. >> nice linear progression. >> nice linear progression. >> Yes. I got I I I have none of those in >> Yes. I got I I I have none of those in >> Yes. I got I I I have none of those in there there there >> for this reason because I wanted to help >> for this reason because I wanted to help >> for this reason because I wanted to help people get past the fear by giving them people get past the fear by giving them people get past the fear by giving them the uh motivation and the method to do the uh motivation and the method to do the uh motivation and the method to do it. it. it. >> I hope it works. >> I hope it works. >> I hope it works. >> Me, too. Well, you're certainly right >> Me, too. Well, you're certainly right >> Me, too. Well, you're certainly right about changing people's opinions with about changing people's opinions with about changing people's opinions with beating them over the head with beating them over the head with beating them over the head with frameworks and justifications. It just frameworks and justifications. It just frameworks and justifications. It just it straight up does not stick. it straight up does not stick. it straight up does not stick. >> Yeah. um pathy mantras and quotes and >> Yeah. um pathy mantras and quotes and >> Yeah. um pathy mantras and quotes and stuff can do they they're a nice stuff can do they they're a nice stuff can do they they're a nice compression algorithm I think for bigger compression algorithm I think for bigger compression algorithm I think for bigger things. Um but really what you're things. Um but really what you're things. Um but really what you're optimizing for and this I'd be optimizing for and this I'd be optimizing for and this I'd be interested to know if you if you agree interested to know if you if you agree interested to know if you if you agree with me on this. I think you're with me on this. I think you're with me on this. I think you're optimizing for memorability. optimizing for memorability. optimizing for memorability. >> Yes. And I'm just I just don't think >> Yes. And I'm just I just don't think >> Yes. And I'm just I just don't think that that that regardless of how well written, regardless of how well written, regardless of how well written, whimsical, whimsical, whimsical, insightful something is, it doesn't the insightful something is, it doesn't the insightful something is, it doesn't the the human brain, the keyhole isn't the the human brain, the keyhole isn't the the human brain, the keyhole isn't the same. It doesn't retain things quite as same. It doesn't retain things quite as same. It doesn't retain things quite as easily. Um the apherism and stuff is easily. Um the apherism and stuff is easily. Um the apherism and stuff is nice. That's kind of like, you know, the nice. That's kind of like, you know, the nice. That's kind of like, you know, the tune from a song. It's the lead melody tune from a song. It's the lead melody tune from a song. It's the lead melody from a song that you can hold on to. from a song that you can hold on to. from a song that you can hold on to. >> But if you give somebody a story, how >> But if you give somebody a story, how >> But if you give somebody a story, how how are you how are you going to forget how are you how are you going to forget how are you how are you going to forget that? years ago and I don't know when it that? years ago and I don't know when it that? years ago and I don't know when it started. Actually, I it's funny. I just started. Actually, I it's funny. I just started. Actually, I it's funny. I just said I don't know where it started and said I don't know where it started and said I don't know where it started and then something popped in my brain. I then something popped in my brain. I then something popped in my brain. I fell in love with these long form fell in love with these long form fell in love with these long form non-fiction articles. There's a website non-fiction articles. There's a website non-fiction articles. There's a website called Long Reads, called Long Reads, called Long Reads, >> okay, >> okay, >> okay, >> that that has best of and it's a lot of >> that that has best of and it's a lot of >> that that has best of and it's a lot of Atlantic stuff, that kind of thing. The Atlantic stuff, that kind of thing. The Atlantic stuff, that kind of thing. The thing that popped in my head was there thing that popped in my head was there thing that popped in my head was there was a New York magazine article. Uh, was a New York magazine article. Uh, was a New York magazine article. Uh, Suge Knight and and and Snoop and I Suge Knight and and and Snoop and I Suge Knight and and and Snoop and I think Biggie were on the cover of New think Biggie were on the cover of New think Biggie were on the cover of New York Time magazine when I was York Time magazine when I was York Time magazine when I was it was in 93 or 94 and it was 20 pages. it was in 93 or 94 and it was 20 pages. it was in 93 or 94 and it was 20 pages. That may have been the first one that That may have been the first one that That may have been the first one that got me into this. But, uh, but that led got me into this. But, uh, but that led got me into this. But, uh, but that led me to a book called The New Journalism. me to a book called The New Journalism. me to a book called The New Journalism. And there's another one called the new And there's another one called the new And there's another one called the new new journalism about these writers that new journalism about these writers that new journalism about these writers that kind of left the being beat writers on kind of left the being beat writers on kind of left the being beat writers on newspapers and started doing this longer newspapers and started doing this longer newspapers and started doing this longer form journalism and how it brought form journalism and how it brought form journalism and how it brought stories to life. I think Truman Capot's stories to life. I think Truman Capot's stories to life. I think Truman Capot's highlighted in that Tom Wolf put highlighted in that Tom Wolf put highlighted in that Tom Wolf put together the first one and then the together the first one and then the together the first one and then the second one has Crackour and Lewis and second one has Crackour and Lewis and second one has Crackour and Lewis and like all the modern like all the modern like all the modern >> but now we've seen we've seen this pivot >> but now we've seen we've seen this pivot >> but now we've seen we've seen this pivot into Substack right that that uh people into Substack right that that uh people into Substack right that that uh people that were previously hardcore that were previously hardcore that were previously hardcore journalists have made their entire journalists have made their entire journalists have made their entire careers on Substack and then if you're careers on Substack and then if you're careers on Substack and then if you're somebody like Barry Weiss you've done somebody like Barry Weiss you've done somebody like Barry Weiss you've done this sort of double U-turn thing and this sort of double U-turn thing and this sort of double U-turn thing and loop back on yourself enough and you end loop back on yourself enough and you end loop back on yourself enough and you end up in charge of CBS or Matt Taiibbe and up in charge of CBS or Matt Taiibbe and up in charge of CBS or Matt Taiibbe and you end up in charge to the Twitter you end up in charge to the Twitter you end up in charge to the Twitter files or whatever. files or whatever. files or whatever. >> I'm a huge Berry fan. >> I'm a huge Berry fan. >> I'm a huge Berry fan. >> Uh, so talk to me about the risk of >> Uh, so talk to me about the risk of >> Uh, so talk to me about the risk of starting over in your 30s or 40s. Yeah. starting over in your 30s or 40s. Yeah. starting over in your 30s or 40s. Yeah. You know, the idea of You know, the idea of You know, the idea of >> not just what am I going to do, but you >> not just what am I going to do, but you >> not just what am I going to do, but you know, I should have had my life together know, I should have had my life together know, I should have had my life together by now. Is really, you're telling me I'm by now. Is really, you're telling me I'm by now. Is really, you're telling me I'm going to start again at 37? I'm going to going to start again at 37? I'm going to going to start again at 37? I'm going to be at the bottom of the pile and I've be at the bottom of the pile and I've be at the bottom of the pile and I've got all this sunk cost fallacy from got all this sunk cost fallacy from got all this sunk cost fallacy from before. What are people going to think before. What are people going to think before. What are people going to think of me? What what's the real risk of of me? What what's the real risk of of me? What what's the real risk of starting again in 30s and 40s? starting again in 30s and 40s? starting again in 30s and 40s? >> Well, what I mean, one thing I would >> Well, what I mean, one thing I would >> Well, what I mean, one thing I would encourage you to do, there was a there encourage you to do, there was a there encourage you to do, there was a there was a this book I read when I was really was a this book I read when I was really was a this book I read when I was really in I think back in business school in I think back in business school in I think back in business school called Shark Proof by Harvey McKay. He called Shark Proof by Harvey McKay. He called Shark Proof by Harvey McKay. He wrote he's known for his sales book, but wrote he's known for his sales book, but wrote he's known for his sales book, but he wrote a book about careers and he he wrote a book about careers and he he wrote a book about careers and he said to keep your dream job. He this was said to keep your dream job. He this was said to keep your dream job. He this was an older book so he said keep it in a an older book so he said keep it in a an older book so he said keep it in a Manila folder in a file but you could Manila folder in a file but you could Manila folder in a file but you could create it in a Google doc or something create it in a Google doc or something create it in a Google doc or something that uh where you're just keeping notes that uh where you're just keeping notes that uh where you're just keeping notes like well if I do it one day you know like well if I do it one day you know like well if I do it one day you know and and and everything you learn people and and and everything you learn people and and and everything you learn people you might talk to I think you just p you might talk to I think you just p you might talk to I think you just p pile more and more stuff in there and pile more and more stuff in there and pile more and more stuff in there and it'll start to feel more real like you it'll start to feel more real like you it'll start to feel more real like you can you can begin the process before you can you can begin the process before you can you can begin the process before you make the leap make the leap make the leap >> right and then the the the second thing >> right and then the the the second thing >> right and then the the the second thing I'm going to say three things the second I'm going to say three things the second I'm going to say three things the second thing I would say is if you have some thing I would say is if you have some thing I would say is if you have some curiosity that's occupying your curiosity that's occupying your curiosity that's occupying your downtime, that's a really interesting downtime, that's a really interesting downtime, that's a really interesting tell. You know, when I was an engineer, tell. You know, when I was an engineer, tell. You know, when I was an engineer, I I got a computer engineering degree I I got a computer engineering degree I I got a computer engineering degree and I was working at Compact Computers and I was working at Compact Computers and I was working at Compact Computers in Houston. That was a big hot company in Houston. That was a big hot company in Houston. That was a big hot company back in the day. And I was going home at back in the day. And I was going home at back in the day. And I was going home at night and I had started I'd learned night and I had started I'd learned night and I had started I'd learned about stocks and I was trading stocks. about stocks and I was trading stocks. about stocks and I was trading stocks. You know, I'd read one up on Wall You know, I'd read one up on Wall You know, I'd read one up on Wall Street. I had this uh I forget what it Street. I had this uh I forget what it Street. I had this uh I forget what it was called this book. You just get this was called this book. You just get this was called this book. You just get this book with all these one pages on every book with all these one pages on every book with all these one pages on every stock. Like I was that's what I was stock. Like I was that's what I was stock. Like I was that's what I was doing in my spare time. So if you're doing in my spare time. So if you're doing in my spare time. So if you're doing something like that in your spare doing something like that in your spare doing something like that in your spare time like it's calling you, you know. time like it's calling you, you know. time like it's calling you, you know. And then the the third thing there's a And then the the third thing there's a And then the the third thing there's a chapter in the book actually titled chapter in the book actually titled chapter in the book actually titled Never Too Late. And we list about 20 Never Too Late. And we list about 20 Never Too Late. And we list about 20 people that did post 40 pivots and we go people that did post 40 pivots and we go people that did post 40 pivots and we go deep on four of them. My favorite being deep on four of them. My favorite being deep on four of them. My favorite being local Austinite Bert Beverage. Um Bert's local Austinite Bert Beverage. Um Bert's local Austinite Bert Beverage. Um Bert's uh nickname is Tito, so that'll that'll uh nickname is Tito, so that'll that'll uh nickname is Tito, so that'll that'll tell you who he is. But um seismology tell you who he is. But um seismology tell you who he is. But um seismology degree, undergrad, worked in oil and gas degree, undergrad, worked in oil and gas degree, undergrad, worked in oil and gas for for several years. Um ended up down for for several years. Um ended up down for for several years. Um ended up down in South America where he got frightened in South America where he got frightened in South America where he got frightened by a few experiences. Um so he hung that by a few experiences. Um so he hung that by a few experiences. Um so he hung that up out of fear and the boom bust cycle. up out of fear and the boom bust cycle. up out of fear and the boom bust cycle. Became a mortgage broker. um didn't Became a mortgage broker. um didn't Became a mortgage broker. um didn't really love it, you know, and not sure really love it, you know, and not sure really love it, you know, and not sure he equated his identity to being a he equated his identity to being a he equated his identity to being a mortgage broker. And um one night, this mortgage broker. And um one night, this mortgage broker. And um one night, this is such a like it's part of why I love is such a like it's part of why I love is such a like it's part of why I love like self-help books and ideas so much. like self-help books and ideas so much. like self-help books and ideas so much. He's watching a PBS special that says, He's watching a PBS special that says, He's watching a PBS special that says, "Take out a sheet of paper, draw a line "Take out a sheet of paper, draw a line "Take out a sheet of paper, draw a line down it, and put the stuff you love to down it, and put the stuff you love to down it, and put the stuff you love to do on the left side and the stuff you're do on the left side and the stuff you're do on the left side and the stuff you're good at on the right, and see if you can good at on the right, and see if you can good at on the right, and see if you can find a through line." and he's looking find a through line." and he's looking find a through line." and he's looking at this sheet of paper and realizes he at this sheet of paper and realizes he at this sheet of paper and realizes he wants to start a spirit company. He's wants to start a spirit company. He's wants to start a spirit company. He's got like chemistry on the right. He's got like chemistry on the right. He's got like chemistry on the right. He's like hanging out at bars on the left. like hanging out at bars on the left. like hanging out at bars on the left. Like and and um he didn't know jack [ __ ] Like and and um he didn't know jack [ __ ] Like and and um he didn't know jack [ __ ] about launching a spirit company. And it about launching a spirit company. And it about launching a spirit company. And it turns out Texas is probably the worst turns out Texas is probably the worst turns out Texas is probably the worst place you'd ever at the time there was place you'd ever at the time there was place you'd ever at the time there was no one that had a license for a spirit no one that had a license for a spirit no one that had a license for a spirit company in Texas. Um, but of course, company in Texas. Um, but of course, company in Texas. Um, but of course, Titos is now the most bestselling Spirit Titos is now the most bestselling Spirit Titos is now the most bestselling Spirit in North America. He uh owns 100% of it in North America. He uh owns 100% of it in North America. He uh owns 100% of it himself. himself. himself. >> No way. The whole thing's bootstrapped. >> No way. The whole thing's bootstrapped. >> No way. The whole thing's bootstrapped. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Credit card. >> Credit card. >> Credit card. >> Yeah. 19 credit card. >> Yeah. 19 credit card. >> Yeah. 19 credit card. >> [ __ ] you. >> [ __ ] you. >> [ __ ] you. >> But it's such a great story. Like, it's >> But it's such a great story. Like, it's >> But it's such a great story. Like, it's just such a great story. just such a great story. just such a great story. >> And and and and and now, you know, he's >> And and and and and now, you know, he's >> And and and and and now, you know, he's at the phase in his life where he's at the phase in his life where he's at the phase in his life where he's giving back and launching foundations. giving back and launching foundations. giving back and launching foundations. And this is my point. Like I say, I had And this is my point. Like I say, I had And this is my point. Like I say, I had a I had a young person at John Hopkins a I had a young person at John Hopkins a I had a young person at John Hopkins raise their hand and say, "But I I don't raise their hand and say, "But I I don't raise their hand and say, "But I I don't want to chase my passion. I want to be want to chase my passion. I want to be want to chase my passion. I want to be purpose driven." And I I thought to purpose driven." And I I thought to purpose driven." And I I thought to myself, you know, every profile in the myself, you know, every profile in the myself, you know, every profile in the book, these people are touching more book, these people are touching more book, these people are touching more lives than they could have ever lives than they could have ever lives than they could have ever imagined. Like imagined. Like imagined. Like >> I don't want to chase my passion. I want >> I don't want to chase my passion. I want >> I don't want to chase my passion. I want to be purpose driven. to be purpose driven. to be purpose driven. >> I think it's part of a new movement to >> I think it's part of a new movement to >> I think it's part of a new movement to just like feel good about yourself. Like just like feel good about yourself. Like just like feel good about yourself. Like I'm a I'm my my main goal in life is to I'm a I'm my my main goal in life is to I'm a I'm my my main goal in life is to help other people. help other people. help other people. >> Serve. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. >> Serve. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. >> Serve. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. Well, Well, Well, >> it's like no, it's no, it's noble on the >> it's like no, it's no, it's noble on the >> it's like no, it's no, it's noble on the surface and there's certainly some surface and there's certainly some surface and there's certainly some things, you know, in the same way this things, you know, in the same way this things, you know, in the same way this person has high burn rate, family to person has high burn rate, family to person has high burn rate, family to support. You don't have the luxury in support. You don't have the luxury in support. You don't have the luxury in quite the same way. Um this person, quite the same way. Um this person, quite the same way. Um this person, there are some jobs that just suck. there are some jobs that just suck. there are some jobs that just suck. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> there are some jobs you're serving your >> there are some jobs you're serving your >> there are some jobs you're serving your country or you know, I'm sure lots of country or you know, I'm sure lots of country or you know, I'm sure lots of people love street cleaning, but I would people love street cleaning, but I would people love street cleaning, but I would imagine that some people do it more out imagine that some people do it more out imagine that some people do it more out of a sense of service than they do out of a sense of service than they do out of a sense of service than they do out of a sense of passion. of a sense of passion. of a sense of passion. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> my only point was these people that are >> my only point was these people that are >> my only point was these people that are able to climb from the bottom rung to able to climb from the bottom rung to able to climb from the bottom rung to the top and do it in the right way end the top and do it in the right way end the top and do it in the right way end up touching hundreds and hundreds of up touching hundreds and hundreds of up touching hundreds and hundreds of lives. lives. lives. >> They're serving in a a much more >> They're serving in a a much more >> They're serving in a a much more seamless way that's leveraged as well. seamless way that's leveraged as well. seamless way that's leveraged as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean my >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean my >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean my one of my favorite on that front is I one of my favorite on that front is I one of my favorite on that front is I many years ago because I was involved many years ago because I was involved many years ago because I was involved with Open Table I met Danny Meyer and with Open Table I met Danny Meyer and with Open Table I met Danny Meyer and who's the famous restaurant tour in New who's the famous restaurant tour in New who's the famous restaurant tour in New York that um also built Shake Shack. He York that um also built Shake Shack. He York that um also built Shake Shack. He has a great book setting the table if has a great book setting the table if has a great book setting the table if people haven't read it. But if you talk people haven't read it. But if you talk people haven't read it. But if you talk to people in the restaurant industry and to people in the restaurant industry and to people in the restaurant industry and they worked even for a year at a Danny they worked even for a year at a Danny they worked even for a year at a Danny Meyer restaurant, it's like meaningful Meyer restaurant, it's like meaningful Meyer restaurant, it's like meaningful to them. like it's on their resume. They to them. like it's on their resume. They to them. like it's on their resume. They talk about it all the time. Like there's talk about it all the time. Like there's talk about it all the time. Like there's almost this church of Danny Meyer like almost this church of Danny Meyer like almost this church of Danny Meyer like for everyone that rolled through it. for everyone that rolled through it. for everyone that rolled through it. That's got to be that's got to just feel That's got to be that's got to just feel That's got to be that's got to just feel amazing. amazing. amazing. >> What is it about his demeanor or culture >> What is it about his demeanor or culture >> What is it about his demeanor or culture or ethos? or ethos? or ethos? >> The book talks about this kind of >> The book talks about this kind of >> The book talks about this kind of understated sensibility to uh his book understated sensibility to uh his book understated sensibility to uh his book to hospitality. to hospitality. to hospitality. um like like just trying to read the um like like just trying to read the um like like just trying to read the room on each and every customer and room on each and every customer and room on each and every customer and really understand, you know, what really understand, you know, what really understand, you know, what they're what they're trying to optimize they're what they're trying to optimize they're what they're trying to optimize and to help them do that as much as and to help them do that as much as and to help them do that as much as possible. possible. possible. >> But his his journey is about more than >> But his his journey is about more than >> But his his journey is about more than that. That's what his book's about. that. That's what his book's about. that. That's what his book's about. >> His journey is about being >> His journey is about being >> His journey is about being >> hyper curious and and an excessive >> hyper curious and and an excessive >> hyper curious and and an excessive learner. like every single step along learner. like every single step along learner. like every single step along the way, including today, the way, including today, the way, including today, >> he's still doing it. You know, last time >> he's still doing it. You know, last time >> he's still doing it. You know, last time I talked to him, he just got back from I talked to him, he just got back from I talked to him, he just got back from Europe, he' taken all his chefs on a Europe, he' taken all his chefs on a Europe, he' taken all his chefs on a tour of Europe together. tour of Europe together. tour of Europe together. >> Um, jotting notes, taking learning, like >> Um, jotting notes, taking learning, like >> Um, jotting notes, taking learning, like just constant learning. just constant learning. just constant learning. >> That's so cool. >> That's so cool. >> That's so cool. >> Which I think is is is >> Which I think is is is >> Which I think is is is it's also that's the second principle of it's also that's the second principle of it's also that's the second principle of my book is continuous learning, but it my book is continuous learning, but it my book is continuous learning, but it ties in with the first one. The best ties in with the first one. The best ties in with the first one. The best test as to whether you found your test as to whether you found your test as to whether you found your passion is does the learning feel like passion is does the learning feel like passion is does the learning feel like free? Like would you do it instead of free? Like would you do it instead of free? Like would you do it instead of watching a TV show? Like is it is it watching a TV show? Like is it is it watching a TV show? Like is it is it something you enjoy so much that something you enjoy so much that something you enjoy so much that continuous learning is just you continuous learning is just you continuous learning is just you enjoying life, enjoying life, enjoying life, >> you know, and if you find that you you >> you know, and if you find that you you >> you know, and if you find that you you found you found it, you found your found you found it, you found your found you found it, you found your passion. passion. passion. >> A quick aside, I've been using eight for >> A quick aside, I've been using eight for >> A quick aside, I've been using eight for years and I genuinely can't imagine life years and I genuinely can't imagine life years and I genuinely can't imagine life without it. Having a mattress that without it. Having a mattress that without it. 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That's ei.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Joe Hudson's got this line, enjoyment is Joe Hudson's got this line, enjoyment is Joe Hudson's got this line, enjoyment is efficiency, he says. And I think I liked efficiency, he says. And I think I liked efficiency, he says. And I think I liked it. it. it. >> I think it's really really true. Yeah. >> I think it's really really true. Yeah. >> I think it's really really true. Yeah. that that that people people people >> it kind yeah >> it kind yeah >> it kind yeah >> people have this relationship between >> people have this relationship between >> people have this relationship between discipline motivation and obsession. discipline motivation and obsession. discipline motivation and obsession. Discipline's always there but there's a Discipline's always there but there's a Discipline's always there but there's a lot of friction. Motivation the friction lot of friction. Motivation the friction lot of friction. Motivation the friction gets removed a little bit but it it's gets removed a little bit but it it's gets removed a little bit but it it's it's sort of harder to to grab a hold it's sort of harder to to grab a hold it's sort of harder to to grab a hold of. You don't really know where it comes of. You don't really know where it comes of. You don't really know where it comes from. Maybe it's a rock playlist or from. Maybe it's a rock playlist or from. Maybe it's a rock playlist or maybe it's the right amount of caffeine maybe it's the right amount of caffeine maybe it's the right amount of caffeine or something. or something. or something. >> Uh and obsession is friction inverted as >> Uh and obsession is friction inverted as >> Uh and obsession is friction inverted as opposed to you having to push through opposed to you having to push through opposed to you having to push through resistance. The resistance pulls you resistance. The resistance pulls you resistance. The resistance pulls you toward it. toward it. toward it. >> That's exactly right. And the problem I >> That's exactly right. And the problem I >> That's exactly right. And the problem I think or the reason that obsession is think or the reason that obsession is think or the reason that obsession is difficult is that obviously if it's difficult is that obviously if it's difficult is that obviously if it's pointed in a nonpositive direction pointed in a nonpositive direction pointed in a nonpositive direction that's how you become obsessed with that's how you become obsessed with that's how you become obsessed with politics or porn or your toxic ex or politics or porn or your toxic ex or politics or porn or your toxic ex or something. something. something. >> Um but if it's pointed in the right >> Um but if it's pointed in the right >> Um but if it's pointed in the right direction what from the outside looks direction what from the outside looks direction what from the outside looks like a superhuman amount of discipline like a superhuman amount of discipline like a superhuman amount of discipline from the inside from the inside from the inside >> feels almost like you haven't chosen it. >> feels almost like you haven't chosen it. >> feels almost like you haven't chosen it. You you you know I'm not I'm not You you you know I'm not I'm not You you you know I'm not I'm not choosing to do this thing. You know, I choosing to do this thing. You know, I choosing to do this thing. You know, I mentioned before we got started, there's mentioned before we got started, there's mentioned before we got started, there's not been a single house I've lived in not been a single house I've lived in not been a single house I've lived in for a decade that I've not turned one of for a decade that I've not turned one of for a decade that I've not turned one of the bedrooms, including most of the ones the bedrooms, including most of the ones the bedrooms, including most of the ones that I slept in, into a podcast studio that I slept in, into a podcast studio that I slept in, into a podcast studio for a decade. My house back in the UK for a decade. My house back in the UK for a decade. My house back in the UK has got a podcast studio in it. The one has got a podcast studio in it. The one has got a podcast studio in it. The one that I live in right now is still that I live in right now is still that I live in right now is still podcasting. Eight years in, a thousand podcasting. Eight years in, a thousand podcasting. Eight years in, a thousand episodes. Every single house has had episodes. Every single house has had episodes. Every single house has had every Airbnb that I've stayed in. I get every Airbnb that I've stayed in. I get every Airbnb that I've stayed in. I get there and I [ __ ] I'm researching hotels there and I [ __ ] I'm researching hotels there and I [ __ ] I'm researching hotels to see if the depth of the table can to see if the depth of the table can to see if the depth of the table can withstand my MacBook, the stand and the withstand my MacBook, the stand and the withstand my MacBook, the stand and the and the [ __ ] tripod because and the [ __ ] tripod because and the [ __ ] tripod because >> that's what I want to do. That's what I >> that's what I want to do. That's what I >> that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. I want to have these want to do. I want to have these want to do. I want to have these conversations. So, okay, I I I my entire conversations. So, okay, I I I my entire conversations. So, okay, I I I my entire life gets warped around it. I'm sure life gets warped around it. I'm sure life gets warped around it. I'm sure you'd be familiar with the uh you'd be familiar with the uh you'd be familiar with the uh singleordinating principle. I think singleordinating principle. I think singleordinating principle. I think Bezos has got one and I think Musk's got Bezos has got one and I think Musk's got Bezos has got one and I think Musk's got one and Bezos's was always does this one and Bezos's was always does this one and Bezos's was always does this make the customer experience better? make the customer experience better? make the customer experience better? >> Yeah. So everything, every single >> Yeah. So everything, every single >> Yeah. So everything, every single decision in Amazon was threaded through decision in Amazon was threaded through decision in Amazon was threaded through this sort of single eye needle. And uh this sort of single eye needle. And uh this sort of single eye needle. And uh >> Musk says, "Does this get us closer to >> Musk says, "Does this get us closer to >> Musk says, "Does this get us closer to Mars? Does this get us closer?" Mars? Does this get us closer?" Mars? Does this get us closer?" >> And by the way, both of those people did >> And by the way, both of those people did >> And by the way, both of those people did something that is something that is something that is super extraordinary, which is they took super extraordinary, which is they took super extraordinary, which is they took an innovative company, grew it to an innovative company, grew it to an innovative company, grew it to hundreds of thousands of employees, and hundreds of thousands of employees, and hundreds of thousands of employees, and kept it innovative. It's it's two of the kept it innovative. It's it's two of the kept it innovative. It's it's two of the only examples I know of. only examples I know of. only examples I know of. >> They didn't get laden down with dis >> They didn't get laden down with dis >> They didn't get laden down with dis economies of communication and lumber economies of communication and lumber economies of communication and lumber [ __ ] behemoth [ __ ] behemoth [ __ ] behemoth >> bureaucracy that always lands in big >> bureaucracy that always lands in big >> bureaucracy that always lands in big companies and it must be some heruristic companies and it must be some heruristic companies and it must be some heruristic like the one you described that allows like the one you described that allows like the one you described that allows them. In fact, I well I was just them. In fact, I well I was just them. In fact, I well I was just listening to Elon on on Cheeky Pine I listening to Elon on on Cheeky Pine I listening to Elon on on Cheeky Pine I think Dash. think Dash. think Dash. >> Yeah, this came up. This came up like >> Yeah, this came up. This came up like >> Yeah, this came up. This came up like like every leader wants to know how he like every leader wants to know how he like every leader wants to know how he does it. That's why I think Collison was does it. That's why I think Collison was does it. That's why I think Collison was asking him like, "How do you lead?" He asking him like, "How do you lead?" He asking him like, "How do you lead?" He he goes, "Well, I'm I'm down deep in." he goes, "Well, I'm I'm down deep in." he goes, "Well, I'm I'm down deep in." He can't be deep. There's there's He can't be deep. There's there's He can't be deep. There's there's 200,000 employees. And Elon jokes, yeah, 200,000 employees. And Elon jokes, yeah, 200,000 employees. And Elon jokes, yeah, there's 200,000 employees. Like, you there's 200,000 employees. Like, you there's 200,000 employees. Like, you have to have some heristic simplifying have to have some heristic simplifying have to have some heristic simplifying heristic heristic heristic >> that uh that can spread through their >> that uh that can spread through their >> that uh that can spread through their spinning too many plates. Yeah. Exactly. spinning too many plates. Yeah. Exactly. spinning too many plates. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty impressive. It's >> Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty impressive. It's >> Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty impressive. It's super impressive. super impressive. super impressive. >> Okay. So, career pivot fear. >> Okay. So, career pivot fear. >> Okay. So, career pivot fear. >> Yes. someone is in the career, >> Yes. someone is in the career, >> Yes. someone is in the career, not super fired up or I used to be and not super fired up or I used to be and not super fired up or I used to be and it just feels like it's time for me to it just feels like it's time for me to it just feels like it's time for me to grow now. grow now. grow now. What are the indicators that it's time What are the indicators that it's time What are the indicators that it's time to move? And what are the um things that to move? And what are the um things that to move? And what are the um things that they should keep in mind to uh maximize they should keep in mind to uh maximize they should keep in mind to uh maximize their bravery, give them a little their bravery, give them a little their bravery, give them a little exogenous amount of morale? So, so on exogenous amount of morale? So, so on exogenous amount of morale? So, so on the on the um do you know I mean I love the on the um do you know I mean I love the on the um do you know I mean I love I love this test of is do you see I love this test of is do you see I love this test of is do you see yourself doing this 30 years from now yourself doing this 30 years from now yourself doing this 30 years from now because if the answer to that is no you because if the answer to that is no you because if the answer to that is no you should get busy what's the line from should get busy what's the line from should get busy what's the line from Shaw Shank like get busy living or get Shaw Shank like get busy living or get Shaw Shank like get busy living or get busy dying like if you know that's true busy dying like if you know that's true busy dying like if you know that's true like well now is when you should start like well now is when you should start like well now is when you should start I'm not saying jump like quit tomorrow I'm not saying jump like quit tomorrow I'm not saying jump like quit tomorrow but like start building the plan like but like start building the plan like but like start building the plan like and then there's all kind of things you and then there's all kind of things you and then there's all kind of things you can do um um in designing your KN Dave can do um um in designing your KN Dave can do um um in designing your KN Dave Evans says has this exercise where he Evans says has this exercise where he Evans says has this exercise where he says create three to five scenarios and says create three to five scenarios and says create three to five scenarios and battle card them of what you might do battle card them of what you might do battle card them of what you might do next. Like you know fill them out. AI next. Like you know fill them out. AI next. Like you know fill them out. AI can really help, right? Like like you can really help, right? Like like you can really help, right? Like like you could build a 20 pager on each one of could build a 20 pager on each one of could build a 20 pager on each one of these career paths. What might I like? these career paths. What might I like? these career paths. What might I like? What might I not like? What what are the What might I not like? What what are the What might I not like? What what are the three things people love in this career? three things people love in this career? three things people love in this career? What are the three things? You can steer What are the three things? You can steer What are the three things? You can steer it all, right? You can ask people in it all, right? You can ask people in it all, right? You can ask people in those fields. You can go find them. So those fields. You can go find them. So those fields. You can go find them. So you could you could role play being in you could you could role play being in you could you could role play being in each of these. There's a there's a each of these. There's a there's a each of these. There's a there's a there's a huristic in the book that I there's a huristic in the book that I there's a huristic in the book that I borrowed from from Ben Gilbert at borrowed from from Ben Gilbert at borrowed from from Ben Gilbert at acquired a lot of podcasters um where he acquired a lot of podcasters um where he acquired a lot of podcasters um where he had side hustles at all his jobs. So at had side hustles at all his jobs. So at had side hustles at all his jobs. So at each job he went to he would ask the each job he went to he would ask the each job he went to he would ask the employer if I do it on my own time can I employer if I do it on my own time can I employer if I do it on my own time can I do this other thing also? And what's do this other thing also? And what's do this other thing also? And what's there's something really great about there's something really great about there's something really great about that one in each of his cases he ended that one in each of his cases he ended that one in each of his cases he ended up doing something pretty remarkable in up doing something pretty remarkable in up doing something pretty remarkable in the side hustle at Microsoft he created the side hustle at Microsoft he created the side hustle at Microsoft he created Microsoft garage which became this way Microsoft garage which became this way Microsoft garage which became this way for Microsoft to stay relevant with for Microsoft to stay relevant with for Microsoft to stay relevant with founders and he met all these founders founders and he met all these founders founders and he met all these founders like all this kind of extra goodies came like all this kind of extra goodies came like all this kind of extra goodies came from that. Um, but I think it all like from that. Um, but I think it all like from that. Um, but I think it all like so you learn more, you learn maybe two, so you learn more, you learn maybe two, so you learn more, you learn maybe two, you get two shots on goal instead of you get two shots on goal instead of you get two shots on goal instead of one. And I think the employer makes you one. And I think the employer makes you one. And I think the employer makes you look proactive so it reflects positively look proactive so it reflects positively look proactive so it reflects positively on you. on you. on you. >> When he ended up at at Madrona, VC, >> When he ended up at at Madrona, VC, >> When he ended up at at Madrona, VC, asked him if he could start a podcast asked him if he could start a podcast asked him if he could start a podcast and look for that lead. And um, I just and look for that lead. And um, I just and look for that lead. And um, I just had dinner with both of them and uh, had dinner with both of them and uh, had dinner with both of them and uh, they were in Austin and man, they're they were in Austin and man, they're they were in Austin and man, they're happy. Like I got to tell you, like they happy. Like I got to tell you, like they happy. Like I got to tell you, like they are really happy people. So similar to are really happy people. So similar to are really happy people. So similar to to you and and uh your obsession and and to you and and uh your obsession and and to you and and uh your obsession and and they fell into it through that through they fell into it through that through they fell into it through that through getting there through that way. So I getting there through that way. So I getting there through that way. So I think those are some things you can do think those are some things you can do think those are some things you can do to uh to test and then look what are you to uh to test and then look what are you to uh to test and then look what are you doing in your spare time like are there doing in your spare time like are there doing in your spare time like are there any signals there? any signals there? any signals there? >> Um those are all great ways. I wouldn't >> Um those are all great ways. I wouldn't >> Um those are all great ways. I wouldn't quit if you don't know where you're quit if you don't know where you're quit if you don't know where you're going. That doesn't make any sense. going. That doesn't make any sense. going. That doesn't make any sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it's such a good shout to >> Yeah. Yeah. It it's such a good shout to >> Yeah. Yeah. It it's such a good shout to say what are you thinking about in the say what are you thinking about in the say what are you thinking about in the shower? shower? shower? >> Yes. What are you doing in your spare >> Yes. What are you doing in your spare >> Yes. What are you doing in your spare time? I keep on [ __ ] watching pickle time? I keep on [ __ ] watching pickle time? I keep on [ __ ] watching pickle ball drills. I just keep on thinking ball drills. I just keep on thinking ball drills. I just keep on thinking about pickle ball and I'm really about pickle ball and I'm really about pickle ball and I'm really interested in the sport and I'm interested in the sport and I'm interested in the sport and I'm interested in how it's growing and I interested in how it's growing and I interested in how it's growing and I love playing it with my friends. But love playing it with my friends. But love playing it with my friends. But even when I'm not playing it, I'm always even when I'm not playing it, I'm always even when I'm not playing it, I'm always thinking about it a lot. Let me maybe thinking about it a lot. Let me maybe thinking about it a lot. Let me maybe there's, you know, maybe there's there's, you know, maybe there's there's, you know, maybe there's something going on there. Let me share something going on there. Let me share something going on there. Let me share this fun story I just stumbled on this fun story I just stumbled on this fun story I just stumbled on because I was I was I'm I'm I'm using because I was I was I'm I'm I'm using because I was I was I'm I'm I'm using some hacker techniques to promote the some hacker techniques to promote the some hacker techniques to promote the book and and that led me to talk to this book and and that led me to talk to this book and and that led me to talk to this gentleman and uh I when I pinged him he gentleman and uh I when I pinged him he gentleman and uh I when I pinged him he said he said oh you please send me the said he said oh you please send me the said he said oh you please send me the book. He goes I saw the video a long book. He goes I saw the video a long book. He goes I saw the video a long time ago and it changed my life. And I time ago and it changed my life. And I time ago and it changed my life. And I said well tell me that story. and um he said well tell me that story. and um he said well tell me that story. and um he was he was a real estate lawyer and he was he was a real estate lawyer and he was he was a real estate lawyer and he loved football and he loved offensive loved football and he loved offensive loved football and he loved offensive plays and offensive diagrams in plays and offensive diagrams in plays and offensive diagrams in football. football. football. >> I love this story because it fits with >> I love this story because it fits with >> I love this story because it fits with my thesis that the best stories are in my thesis that the best stories are in my thesis that the best stories are in jobs your parents would tell you to jobs your parents would tell you to jobs your parents would tell you to never go do. He launches a website to never go do. He launches a website to never go do. He launches a website to help people like manage and develop help people like manage and develop help people like manage and develop football plays and then he builds football plays and then he builds football plays and then he builds software and then he starts a podcast. software and then he starts a podcast. software and then he starts a podcast. He has 900,000 followers and this is He has 900,000 followers and this is He has 900,000 followers and this is what he does all day now. He talks about what he does all day now. He talks about what he does all day now. He talks about offensive football plays with the best offensive football plays with the best offensive football plays with the best and the brightest in the field. He's and the brightest in the field. He's and the brightest in the field. He's known throughout the industry. What a known throughout the industry. What a known throughout the industry. What a great story. Like how awesome is that? great story. Like how awesome is that? great story. Like how awesome is that? >> That's brilliant. >> That's brilliant. >> That's brilliant. >> It's so great. Like like I think people >> It's so great. Like like I think people >> It's so great. Like like I think people don't realize that you can actually don't realize that you can actually don't realize that you can actually there there are careers in a lot of there there are careers in a lot of there there are careers in a lot of places. A lot of people um want to be in places. A lot of people um want to be in places. A lot of people um want to be in Hollywood or music and they think they Hollywood or music and they think they Hollywood or music and they think they can't do it because they're not can't do it because they're not can't do it because they're not talented. But there's a hundred support talented. But there's a hundred support talented. But there's a hundred support jobs for every artist that's out there jobs for every artist that's out there jobs for every artist that's out there and there's tons of work to go do. You and there's tons of work to go do. You and there's tons of work to go do. You know, if you really love being around know, if you really love being around know, if you really love being around that stuff, there's tons of opportunity. that stuff, there's tons of opportunity. that stuff, there's tons of opportunity. >> Well, especially given that you can fail >> Well, especially given that you can fail >> Well, especially given that you can fail at a job that you hate, you can you can at a job that you hate, you can you can at a job that you hate, you can you can underperform in a industry that you underperform in a industry that you underperform in a industry that you don't want to be in. Yeah. don't want to be in. Yeah. don't want to be in. Yeah. >> So the prospect of potentially doing >> So the prospect of potentially doing >> So the prospect of potentially doing okay at one that you love is infinitely okay at one that you love is infinitely okay at one that you love is infinitely better. better. better. >> I think so. I think so. That goes back >> I think so. I think so. That goes back >> I think so. I think so. That goes back to life is a use it or lose it to life is a use it or lose it to life is a use it or lose it proposition. Like give it a go. And then proposition. Like give it a go. And then proposition. Like give it a go. And then the other thing to know about failing in the other thing to know about failing in the other thing to know about failing in that is uh humans are like this the the that is uh humans are like this the the that is uh humans are like this the the research in psychology says humans are research in psychology says humans are research in psychology says humans are really good at forgiving themselves. really good at forgiving themselves. really good at forgiving themselves. Like you're not the failure is not going Like you're not the failure is not going Like you're not the failure is not going to you're not going to ruminate on it to you're not going to ruminate on it to you're not going to ruminate on it forever. Especially if you tell forever. Especially if you tell forever. Especially if you tell yourself, well, I'm proud of the bravery yourself, well, I'm proud of the bravery yourself, well, I'm proud of the bravery to make the call. to make the call. to make the call. >> No doubt. >> No doubt. >> No doubt. >> Isn't there some evidence from >> Isn't there some evidence from >> Isn't there some evidence from psychology that humans psychology that humans psychology that humans prefer just making decisions generally? prefer just making decisions generally? prefer just making decisions generally? That if you make a decision, you tend to That if you make a decision, you tend to That if you make a decision, you tend to be happier. Someone's, let's say, it's a be happier. Someone's, let's say, it's a be happier. Someone's, let's say, it's a maybe a slightly less momentous maybe a slightly less momentous maybe a slightly less momentous decision between one city and another. decision between one city and another. decision between one city and another. Uh, the city that you're in now are Uh, the city that you're in now are Uh, the city that you're in now are moving. Um, on average, people that move moving. Um, on average, people that move moving. Um, on average, people that move are happier. And I think part of that is are happier. And I think part of that is are happier. And I think part of that is just well life is like novelty and just well life is like novelty and just well life is like novelty and variety are pretty fun. It's different variety are pretty fun. It's different variety are pretty fun. It's different and no doubt exciting. And even if it's and no doubt exciting. And even if it's and no doubt exciting. And even if it's objectively a little worse, subjectively objectively a little worse, subjectively objectively a little worse, subjectively it's all new. it's all new. it's all new. >> Yes. I like that. I liked it. I just had >> Yes. I like that. I liked it. I just had >> Yes. I like that. I liked it. I just had a similar life experience. I spent 25 a similar life experience. I spent 25 a similar life experience. I spent 25 years in the Bay Area uh living in one years in the Bay Area uh living in one years in the Bay Area uh living in one type of community and when I moved to type of community and when I moved to type of community and when I moved to Austin, I moved downtown in a high-rise Austin, I moved downtown in a high-rise Austin, I moved downtown in a high-rise completely different repot. And it's completely different repot. And it's completely different repot. And it's invigorating. Like it's awesome. invigorating. Like it's awesome. invigorating. Like it's awesome. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> New place for coffee, new place to work >> New place for coffee, new place to work >> New place for coffee, new place to work to take your calls, your morning walk. to take your calls, your morning walk. to take your calls, your morning walk. >> All that's different. That's great. I >> All that's different. That's great. I >> All that's different. That's great. I agree with that sentiment. agree with that sentiment. agree with that sentiment. >> So, you quit a successful job at >> So, you quit a successful job at >> So, you quit a successful job at Compact. Compact. Compact. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To start again. >> To start again. >> To start again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How do people know when they're >> How do people know when they're >> How do people know when they're plateauing plateauing plateauing versus they're just a bit bored or versus they're just a bit bored or versus they're just a bit bored or something? something? something? >> Yeah. Um I a few people have asked me >> Yeah. Um I a few people have asked me >> Yeah. Um I a few people have asked me this question. I I once again I think this question. I I once again I think this question. I I once again I think the 30-year forward exercise gets you the 30-year forward exercise gets you the 30-year forward exercise gets you away from that because it's it's it's away from that because it's it's it's away from that because it's it's it's asking a different question. Um one one asking a different question. Um one one asking a different question. Um one one thing I'm really big on is um and thing I'm really big on is um and thing I'm really big on is um and there's there's a different chapter there's there's a different chapter there's there's a different chapter dedicated to this is is developing peer dedicated to this is is developing peer dedicated to this is is developing peer relationships. relationships. relationships. And we can go into why I think that's And we can go into why I think that's And we can go into why I think that's such a huge unlock, but but one of the such a huge unlock, but but one of the such a huge unlock, but but one of the benefits of having a group of peers, benefits of having a group of peers, benefits of having a group of peers, especially if they're outside your especially if they're outside your especially if they're outside your organization, so these are people on the organization, so these are people on the organization, so these are people on the same career path you're on, but are same career path you're on, but are same career path you're on, but are maybe a bit distant, they're at a maybe a bit distant, they're at a maybe a bit distant, they're at a different company or whatever, and if different company or whatever, and if different company or whatever, and if you have a community like that that you you have a community like that that you you have a community like that that you really trust and support one another, really trust and support one another, really trust and support one another, they can help you with that question you they can help you with that question you they can help you with that question you just asked, like, am I am I failing and just asked, like, am I am I failing and just asked, like, am I am I failing and I'm never going to succeed because I I'm never going to succeed because I I'm never going to succeed because I don't have the right talent for it. Am I don't have the right talent for it. Am I don't have the right talent for it. Am I do I maybe have a shitty boss? Is their do I maybe have a shitty boss? Is their do I maybe have a shitty boss? Is their experience different? experience different? experience different? >> Like like you can it's a great group of >> Like like you can it's a great group of >> Like like you can it's a great group of people to ask those questions of. people to ask those questions of. people to ask those questions of. >> It's almost like being able to run a >> It's almost like being able to run a >> It's almost like being able to run a little split test of yourself. little split test of yourself. little split test of yourself. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What are the things that are different >> What are the things that are different >> What are the things that are different in your experience and how much of those in your experience and how much of those in your experience and how much of those are fundamental to are fundamental to are fundamental to >> the role? >> the role? >> the role? >> Exactly. Yeah. And how much of that is >> Exactly. Yeah. And how much of that is >> Exactly. Yeah. And how much of that is transient that I could just transient that I could just transient that I could just >> absolutely absolutely >> absolutely absolutely >> absolutely absolutely >> finesse my way out of? There's 10 other >> finesse my way out of? There's 10 other >> finesse my way out of? There's 10 other reasons why you should build that group, reasons why you should build that group, reasons why you should build that group, but that's it. It's it's good at helping but that's it. It's it's good at helping but that's it. It's it's good at helping with that problem that you just with that problem that you just with that problem that you just described. described. described. >> How do you deliberately upgrade your >> How do you deliberately upgrade your >> How do you deliberately upgrade your peer group without it being peer group without it being peer group without it being transactional? transactional? transactional? How can you make like-minded How can you make like-minded How can you make like-minded friends and peers without them thinking friends and peers without them thinking friends and peers without them thinking that you're constantly just wanting that you're constantly just wanting that you're constantly just wanting something? Yeah, it's a tough question something? Yeah, it's a tough question something? Yeah, it's a tough question because I think the number one reason because I think the number one reason because I think the number one reason people are bad at forming these peer people are bad at forming these peer people are bad at forming these peer groups is they've been taught to be a groups is they've been taught to be a groups is they've been taught to be a climber and they've been taught to climber and they've been taught to climber and they've been taught to almost been taught to be a bit sharp almost been taught to be a bit sharp almost been taught to be a bit sharp elbowed and to outgun the next person. elbowed and to outgun the next person. elbowed and to outgun the next person. >> Zero sum. >> Zero sum. >> Zero sum. >> Yeah. And and we borrow a lot of our >> Yeah. And and we borrow a lot of our >> Yeah. And and we borrow a lot of our mental frameworks from from finite games mental frameworks from from finite games mental frameworks from from finite games that have a beginning and an end in a that have a beginning and an end in a that have a beginning and an end in a single winner. And careers just aren't single winner. And careers just aren't single winner. And careers just aren't that way. almost any industry if it's that way. almost any industry if it's that way. almost any industry if it's not uh downhill skiing, there's lots of not uh downhill skiing, there's lots of not uh downhill skiing, there's lots of winners. You know, there's tons of winners. You know, there's tons of winners. You know, there's tons of winners. Um podcasting is a great winners. Um podcasting is a great winners. Um podcasting is a great example of that. There's tons of winners example of that. There's tons of winners example of that. There's tons of winners in Austin. in Austin. in Austin. >> Um and so if you can build a peer >> Um and so if you can build a peer >> Um and so if you can build a peer network of like-minded people that you network of like-minded people that you network of like-minded people that you trust trust trust and and and the the great test of do you and and and the the great test of do you and and and the the great test of do you trust, would you share your best ideas trust, would you share your best ideas trust, would you share your best ideas with them like that you've learned this with them like that you've learned this with them like that you've learned this new thing that you just unlocked in your new thing that you just unlocked in your new thing that you just unlocked in your job? would you share it with them? You job? would you share it with them? You job? would you share it with them? You should actually, I believe, but a lot of should actually, I believe, but a lot of should actually, I believe, but a lot of people wouldn't. And so, if you if you people wouldn't. And so, if you if you people wouldn't. And so, if you if you once you get to that place, uh, it's a once you get to that place, uh, it's a once you get to that place, uh, it's a really special place. Um, there's a really special place. Um, there's a really special place. Um, there's a there's a story in the book about Chris there's a story in the book about Chris there's a story in the book about Chris Delcante, who's the athletic director Delcante, who's the athletic director Delcante, who's the athletic director here at the University of Texas, and here at the University of Texas, and here at the University of Texas, and when he broke into sports when he broke into sports when he broke into sports administration, he was in the administration, he was in the administration, he was in the development office. He went to a development office. He went to a development office. He went to a conference like, and it's a great place conference like, and it's a great place conference like, and it's a great place to meet peers. He went to a conference to meet peers. He went to a conference to meet peers. He went to a conference and met with a couple of other young men and met with a couple of other young men and met with a couple of other young men who were also at the beginning of their who were also at the beginning of their who were also at the beginning of their career. They exchanged numbers and career. They exchanged numbers and career. They exchanged numbers and started a text group and over time they started a text group and over time they started a text group and over time they added a few more people to that got up added a few more people to that got up added a few more people to that got up to like seven seven or eight. They're to like seven seven or eight. They're to like seven seven or eight. They're all eight all eight of them are D1 all eight all eight of them are D1 all eight all eight of them are D1 athletic directors now and they all athletic directors now and they all athletic directors now and they all started on the bottom and if you follow started on the bottom and if you follow started on the bottom and if you follow them along that journey their learning them along that journey their learning them along that journey their learning elevated each time the each year they elevated each time the each year they elevated each time the each year they met each each time they texted the met each each time they texted the met each each time they texted the problems they were encountering they problems they were encountering they problems they were encountering they were sharing they were explaining it got were sharing they were explaining it got were sharing they were explaining it got to the point where they would do to the point where they would do to the point where they would do weekends away with their wives and weekends away with their wives and weekends away with their wives and invite in guest you know you talk about invite in guest you know you talk about invite in guest you know you talk about external learning who who's holding external learning who who's holding external learning who who's holding doing many conferences on their own doing many conferences on their own doing many conferences on their own nickel and bringing and bringing in nickel and bringing and bringing in nickel and bringing and bringing in external guests to help educate them so external guests to help educate them so external guests to help educate them so that they could rise and thrive that they could rise and thrive that they could rise and thrive together. together. together. >> Uh it's just so I I just like I get like >> Uh it's just so I I just like I get like >> Uh it's just so I I just like I get like there's another story that's that's there's another story that's that's there's another story that's that's perhaps more modern for the younger perhaps more modern for the younger perhaps more modern for the younger crowd. Mr. Beast did this when he was crowd. Mr. Beast did this when he was crowd. Mr. Beast did this when he was 17. He found three other people that 17. He found three other people that 17. He found three other people that were trying to hack YouTube. They're were trying to hack YouTube. They're were trying to hack YouTube. They're basically trying to figure out the game basically trying to figure out the game basically trying to figure out the game of YouTube and they were on a Skype call of YouTube and they were on a Skype call of YouTube and they were on a Skype call for 16 hours a day together. And he says for 16 hours a day together. And he says for 16 hours a day together. And he says if there were a fifth person in that if there were a fifth person in that if there were a fifth person in that room, they would have made a million room, they would have made a million room, they would have made a million dollars also. dollars also. dollars also. >> Like it was just because the stuff they >> Like it was just because the stuff they >> Like it was just because the stuff they were uncovering was so usable and just were uncovering was so usable and just were uncovering was so usable and just deterministic just no one else knew it. deterministic just no one else knew it. deterministic just no one else knew it. And he used a phrase I love. He said, And he used a phrase I love. He said, And he used a phrase I love. He said, "You know how they talk about 10,000 "You know how they talk about 10,000 "You know how they talk about 10,000 hours?" Referring to the Malcolm hours?" Referring to the Malcolm hours?" Referring to the Malcolm Gladwell book. He says, "We got 40,000 Gladwell book. He says, "We got 40,000 Gladwell book. He says, "We got 40,000 hours because we were we were sharing it hours because we were we were sharing it hours because we were we were sharing it all." That's not the exact math, but all." That's not the exact math, but all." That's not the exact math, but it's a it's a it's a cool reflection of it's a it's a it's a cool reflection of it's a it's a it's a cool reflection of the moment. You know, a quick aside, the moment. You know, a quick aside, the moment. You know, a quick aside, you've probably heard experts like Dr. you've probably heard experts like Dr. you've probably heard experts like Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s. They reduce Hello. of omega-3s. They reduce Hello. of omega-3s. They reduce Hello. Omega-3s. There they are. They reduce Omega-3s. There they are. They reduce Omega-3s. There they are. 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That's lim n.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. and modernwisdom a checkout. and modernwisdom a checkout. What do you think about mentors? You What do you think about mentors? You What do you think about mentors? You know, peers are great. they're know, peers are great. they're know, peers are great. they're struggling with the same challenges struggling with the same challenges struggling with the same challenges you're sharing and sort of going on the you're sharing and sort of going on the you're sharing and sort of going on the journey together. That feels cool. It's journey together. That feels cool. It's journey together. That feels cool. It's like a teammate, but presumably there's like a teammate, but presumably there's like a teammate, but presumably there's a a good argument to be made. Well, a a good argument to be made. Well, a a good argument to be made. Well, maybe you aim for someone that's already maybe you aim for someone that's already maybe you aim for someone that's already been through the pitfalls. been through the pitfalls. been through the pitfalls. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How do you come to think about >> How do you come to think about >> How do you come to think about >> I think you do both. I think you do >> I think you do both. I think you do >> I think you do both. I think you do both. They serve very different both. They serve very different both. They serve very different purposes. The the co-learning journey, I purposes. The the co-learning journey, I purposes. The the co-learning journey, I mean, peers give you give you mean, peers give you give you mean, peers give you give you co-learning. They give you support, co-learning. They give you support, co-learning. They give you support, which I talked about. They give you which I talked about. They give you which I talked about. They give you reflections to you can ask those reflections to you can ask those reflections to you can ask those questions. Is this the same in your job? questions. Is this the same in your job? questions. Is this the same in your job? Um Um Um you're vulnerable with peers. You you're vulnerable with peers. You you're vulnerable with peers. You wouldn't do that with a mentor, right? wouldn't do that with a mentor, right? wouldn't do that with a mentor, right? Like especially if you get the peer Like especially if you get the peer Like especially if you get the peer group in the right place. You you tell group in the right place. You you tell group in the right place. You you tell them I'm struggling here. Like um so I them I'm struggling here. Like um so I them I'm struggling here. Like um so I think it I think it's just a different think it I think it's just a different think it I think it's just a different purpose. Um, with I think mentors are purpose. Um, with I think mentors are purpose. Um, with I think mentors are extremely important, but I think the extremely important, but I think the extremely important, but I think the idyllic version of a mentor is a bit idyllic version of a mentor is a bit idyllic version of a mentor is a bit broken because we encourage a lot of broken because we encourage a lot of broken because we encourage a lot of young people to cold call too high where young people to cold call too high where young people to cold call too high where the rejection rate's going to be 98% the rejection rate's going to be 98% the rejection rate's going to be 98% >> because the CFO of this company doesn't >> because the CFO of this company doesn't >> because the CFO of this company doesn't want to be friends with you. want to be friends with you. want to be friends with you. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> But it happens constantly. And so what I >> But it happens constantly. And so what I >> But it happens constantly. And so what I encourage people to do is divide encourage people to do is divide encourage people to do is divide mentorship into two different mentorship into two different mentorship into two different categories. have aspirational mentors categories. have aspirational mentors categories. have aspirational mentors and just like that file folder for your and just like that file folder for your and just like that file folder for your dream job, create one for each of them. dream job, create one for each of them. dream job, create one for each of them. Like study them like a kid might study Like study them like a kid might study Like study them like a kid might study Star Wars characters or something. You Star Wars characters or something. You Star Wars characters or something. You know what I'm saying? Like really get know what I'm saying? Like really get know what I'm saying? Like really get enamored with these people that you you enamored with these people that you you enamored with these people that you you idolize as aspirational mentors. And idolize as aspirational mentors. And idolize as aspirational mentors. And one, you're going to learn a lot one, you're going to learn a lot one, you're going to learn a lot studying them. And by the way, the studying them. And by the way, the studying them. And by the way, the resources are amazing right now. YouTube resources are amazing right now. YouTube resources are amazing right now. YouTube interviews, podcasts, like AI, you you interviews, podcasts, like AI, you you interviews, podcasts, like AI, you you can learn faster than you ever could can learn faster than you ever could can learn faster than you ever could have learned before. So study them. If have learned before. So study them. If have learned before. So study them. If you ever meet them one day, the fact you ever meet them one day, the fact you ever meet them one day, the fact that you studied them this long is going that you studied them this long is going that you studied them this long is going to prove super useful. And then for the to prove super useful. And then for the to prove super useful. And then for the mentors you actually want guidance from, mentors you actually want guidance from, mentors you actually want guidance from, like tone it down a bit. Like go two like tone it down a bit. Like go two like tone it down a bit. Like go two levels below what you thought you were levels below what you thought you were levels below what you thought you were supposed to do. And you're going to meet supposed to do. And you're going to meet supposed to do. And you're going to meet somebody who's so thrilled that you somebody who's so thrilled that you somebody who's so thrilled that you recognize that they were successful and recognize that they were successful and recognize that they were successful and worthy of giving advice that your hit worthy of giving advice that your hit worthy of giving advice that your hit rate is going to go up rate is going to go up rate is going to go up 10x or more. Like the probability that 10x or more. Like the probability that 10x or more. Like the probability that you're going to get them to do the work you're going to get them to do the work you're going to get them to do the work is so much better. Like is so much better. Like is so much better. Like >> I noticed that when I first started the >> I noticed that when I first started the >> I noticed that when I first started the show in 2018 and it's still not early. show in 2018 and it's still not early. show in 2018 and it's still not early. It felt late but It felt late but It felt late but you know now it feels earlyish. you know now it feels earlyish. you know now it feels earlyish. It was so flattering for people to be It was so flattering for people to be It was so flattering for people to be invited on a podcast. You know one of invited on a podcast. You know one of invited on a podcast. You know one of the other such a funny trick that I the other such a funny trick that I the other such a funny trick that I still use now so the world can have this still use now so the world can have this still use now so the world can have this one. Uh I I realized that flattery was one. Uh I I realized that flattery was one. Uh I I realized that flattery was was one of the big drivers I think for was one of the big drivers I think for was one of the big drivers I think for uh bringing people on the podcast uh bringing people on the podcast uh bringing people on the podcast especially no one knows who it is. It's especially no one knows who it is. It's especially no one knows who it is. It's this random British guy asking if you this random British guy asking if you this random British guy asking if you should come on. I always used to ask should come on. I always used to ask should come on. I always used to ask people, uh, can you please put me in people, uh, can you please put me in people, uh, can you please put me in touch with whoever handles your podcast touch with whoever handles your podcast touch with whoever handles your podcast adverts? adverts? adverts? >> And it's some small >> And it's some small >> And it's some small >> I get it. >> I get it. >> I get it. >> Researcher at [ __ ] University of >> Researcher at [ __ ] University of >> Researcher at [ __ ] University of Arizona. Arizona. Arizona. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> And they're like, "Oh, well, it's just >> And they're like, "Oh, well, it's just >> And they're like, "Oh, well, it's just me that handles my I'm seen in the me that handles my I'm seen in the me that handles my I'm seen in the echelons of those that would have an echelons of those that would have an echelons of those that would have an assistant or perhaps a receptionist that assistant or perhaps a receptionist that assistant or perhaps a receptionist that would handle my podcast ads." would handle my podcast ads." would handle my podcast ads." >> I get it. >> I get it. >> I get it. >> So, and that's that's still now. Please >> So, and that's that's still now. Please >> So, and that's that's still now. Please pass me on to whoever handles your pass me on to whoever handles your pass me on to whoever handles your podcast ads. And that's actually another podcast ads. And that's actually another podcast ads. And that's actually another good one I think just generally for any good one I think just generally for any good one I think just generally for any outreach to somebody. You want to be in outreach to somebody. You want to be in outreach to somebody. You want to be in front of the right person and especially front of the right person and especially front of the right person and especially if you're starting to pitch up toward if you're starting to pitch up toward if you're starting to pitch up toward mentors that right person who actually mentors that right person who actually mentors that right person who actually handles that thing might not be them. handles that thing might not be them. handles that thing might not be them. So, uh, you know, reaching out, you So, uh, you know, reaching out, you So, uh, you know, reaching out, you please put me in touch with whoever please put me in touch with whoever please put me in touch with whoever handles Bill's handles Bill's handles Bill's >> uh, inquiries for coffee or whatever it >> uh, inquiries for coffee or whatever it >> uh, inquiries for coffee or whatever it might be to the to the admin inbox might be to the to the admin inbox might be to the to the admin inbox because the last thing that you want is because the last thing that you want is because the last thing that you want is some complex question that the person some complex question that the person some complex question that the person who handles the inbound open email thing who handles the inbound open email thing who handles the inbound open email thing or the LinkedIn, you know, the the or the LinkedIn, you know, the the or the LinkedIn, you know, the the LinkedIn DM requests, is it them or is LinkedIn DM requests, is it them or is LinkedIn DM requests, is it them or is it going to be somebody else looking to it going to be somebody else looking to it going to be somebody else looking to get put in touch with the person who get put in touch with the person who get put in touch with the person who handles their partnerships or the handles their partnerships or the handles their partnerships or the whatever it is? If it is them, they feel whatever it is? If it is them, they feel whatever it is? If it is them, they feel flattered. And if it's not them, the flattered. And if it's not them, the flattered. And if it's not them, the delegate person passes you on to the delegate person passes you on to the delegate person passes you on to the right Yeah. right Yeah. right Yeah. >> department. >> department. >> department. >> And and this isn't in the book, but if >> And and this isn't in the book, but if >> And and this isn't in the book, but if you ever meet the delegate person, pay you ever meet the delegate person, pay you ever meet the delegate person, pay as much attention to them as you as much attention to them as you as much attention to them as you possibly can. Like learn possibly can. Like learn possibly can. Like learn >> through them. >> through them. >> through them. >> Oh yeah. Learn all you can about them. >> Oh yeah. Learn all you can about them. >> Oh yeah. Learn all you can about them. Like like be generous and kind and Like like be generous and kind and Like like be generous and kind and thoughtful, thoughtful, thoughtful, >> you know. Good uh >> you know. Good uh >> you know. Good uh >> it will pay off big time. good story >> it will pay off big time. good story >> it will pay off big time. good story around that from the show. Uh David around that from the show. Uh David around that from the show. Uh David Gogggins, you familiar with David Gogggins, you familiar with David Gogggins, you familiar with David Gogggins? I'm not. Gogggins? I'm not. Gogggins? I'm not. >> Okay. So, he ex-Navy Seal, endurance >> Okay. So, he ex-Navy Seal, endurance >> Okay. So, he ex-Navy Seal, endurance athlete, probably one of the most sought athlete, probably one of the most sought athlete, probably one of the most sought after podcast guests on the planet. In after podcast guests on the planet. In after podcast guests on the planet. In the last the last the last >> probably six years, he's done two >> probably six years, he's done two >> probably six years, he's done two podcasts. One of them was mine and the podcasts. One of them was mine and the podcasts. One of them was mine and the other was Rogan. It brought a brand new other was Rogan. It brought a brand new other was Rogan. It brought a brand new book out. His first book sold gazillion book out. His first book sold gazillion book out. His first book sold gazillion copies. copies. copies. >> Brings a new book out. And uh for 9 >> Brings a new book out. And uh for 9 >> Brings a new book out. And uh for 9 months I'm back and forth with a person months I'm back and forth with a person months I'm back and forth with a person on his team and checking in seeing how on his team and checking in seeing how on his team and checking in seeing how everything's going, seeing the marketing everything's going, seeing the marketing everything's going, seeing the marketing this this this this. And then he this this this this. And then he this this this this. And then he cancelled every other podcast appearance cancelled every other podcast appearance cancelled every other podcast appearance except for Rogan. And they tried to except for Rogan. And they tried to except for Rogan. And they tried to cancel the one with me as well. And I cancel the one with me as well. And I cancel the one with me as well. And I got this message, really sorry, David's got this message, really sorry, David's got this message, really sorry, David's just going to have to we're not going to just going to have to we're not going to just going to have to we're not going to be able to make it work. And I was like, be able to make it work. And I was like, be able to make it work. And I was like, look, I will do whatever it takes. I'll look, I will do whatever it takes. I'll look, I will do whatever it takes. I'll move heaven and earth. I'll come to you. move heaven and earth. I'll come to you. move heaven and earth. I'll come to you. I'll bring you to me. We'll change the I'll bring you to me. We'll change the I'll bring you to me. We'll change the date. We'll do whatever it is. Um, and date. We'll do whatever it is. Um, and date. We'll do whatever it is. Um, and they said couple of days later, I got they said couple of days later, I got they said couple of days later, I got another reply. Okay, we're in. We'll be another reply. Okay, we're in. We'll be another reply. Okay, we're in. We'll be able to make it work. And when I turned able to make it work. And when I turned able to make it work. And when I turned up, David, he's sort of stern stern hard up, David, he's sort of stern stern hard up, David, he's sort of stern stern hard guy. guy. guy. Comes up, very nice to meet you. The Comes up, very nice to meet you. The Comes up, very nice to meet you. The first thing he says after that is, I first thing he says after that is, I first thing he says after that is, I just want you to know the only reason just want you to know the only reason just want you to know the only reason that I'm here is because of her. And that I'm here is because of her. And that I'm here is because of her. And pointed to the person that I've been pointed to the person that I've been pointed to the person that I've been emailing. emailing. emailing. >> Yep. Precisely. >> So in your framework, loving the grind >> So in your framework, loving the grind is sort of a non-negotiable. is sort of a non-negotiable. is sort of a non-negotiable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Can someone sort of learn to love >> Can someone sort of learn to love >> Can someone sort of learn to love grinding or is that innate? grinding or is that innate? grinding or is that innate? >> I don't think so. But, you know, when >> I don't think so. But, you know, when >> I don't think so. But, you know, when you were talking about um your your love you were talking about um your your love you were talking about um your your love of podcasting, you know, the the word of podcasting, you know, the the word of podcasting, you know, the the word that popped into my brain, and there's a that popped into my brain, and there's a that popped into my brain, and there's a book by this title was flow. book by this title was flow. book by this title was flow. >> And I I just find people that are truly >> And I I just find people that are truly >> And I I just find people that are truly tilting against their passion, they tilting against their passion, they tilting against their passion, they never even think about it as work. like never even think about it as work. like never even think about it as work. like it and and at times the experience does it and and at times the experience does it and and at times the experience does go into this flow thing like where when go into this flow thing like where when go into this flow thing like where when it when you're done you don't even it when you're done you don't even it when you're done you don't even remember doing it like you're just that remember doing it like you're just that remember doing it like you're just that much enamored with the whole thing and much enamored with the whole thing and much enamored with the whole thing and because I've felt that and I've seen it because I've felt that and I've seen it because I've felt that and I've seen it I just I really don't know how you could I just I really don't know how you could I just I really don't know how you could do that. I I suspect some human is just do that. I I suspect some human is just do that. I I suspect some human is just wired in a certain way where they might wired in a certain way where they might wired in a certain way where they might be able to do it, but I don't know that be able to do it, but I don't know that be able to do it, but I don't know that most humans could like and I don't know most humans could like and I don't know most humans could like and I don't know I I do think we get a lot of young I I do think we get a lot of young I I do think we get a lot of young people to do it for an extended period people to do it for an extended period people to do it for an extended period of time. of time. of time. >> Um and and >> Um and and >> Um and and >> the meat grinder thing. >> the meat grinder thing. >> the meat grinder thing. >> Yeah. I meet some I I just yesterday met >> Yeah. I meet some I I just yesterday met >> Yeah. I meet some I I just yesterday met with five of the top I I helped start with five of the top I I helped start with five of the top I I helped start this robotics honors program at Texas this robotics honors program at Texas this robotics honors program at Texas and I met with five of them and like you and I met with five of them and like you and I met with five of them and like you know they're giving you their background know they're giving you their background know they're giving you their background Eagle Scout and and it's 1580 SAT and Eagle Scout and and it's 1580 SAT and Eagle Scout and and it's 1580 SAT and all like clearly this human's been all like clearly this human's been all like clearly this human's been programmed to go take the hill like on programmed to go take the hill like on programmed to go take the hill like on every single thing they do. But I don't every single thing they do. But I don't every single thing they do. But I don't think that's the path to greatness. Like think that's the path to greatness. Like think that's the path to greatness. Like you know what I'm saying? I just don't you know what I'm saying? I just don't you know what I'm saying? I just don't think I don't think just being good at think I don't think just being good at think I don't think just being good at the grind is is what it takes to to be the grind is is what it takes to to be the grind is is what it takes to to be truly exceptional. truly exceptional. truly exceptional. Brute forcing creativity, Brute forcing creativity, Brute forcing creativity, sort of white knuckling your way through sort of white knuckling your way through sort of white knuckling your way through miserable successes. Uh it lasts for a miserable successes. Uh it lasts for a miserable successes. Uh it lasts for a good while and might be sort of the good while and might be sort of the good while and might be sort of the activation energy you need to overcome activation energy you need to overcome activation energy you need to overcome some discomfort at the start. But I some discomfort at the start. But I some discomfort at the start. But I would agree. I think would agree. I think would agree. I think >> and maybe if you're just so damn >> and maybe if you're just so damn >> and maybe if you're just so damn competitive like winning all the time is competitive like winning all the time is competitive like winning all the time is >> that winning is your passion. It's a >> that winning is your passion. It's a >> that winning is your passion. It's a meta passion. meta passion. meta passion. >> That's possible. >> That's possible. >> That's possible. >> Yeah, that's interesting. And that's >> Yeah, that's interesting. And that's >> Yeah, that's interesting. And that's certainly some people, right? They just certainly some people, right? They just certainly some people, right? They just want to win. want to win. want to win. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh I think Michael Jordan would be a >> Uh I think Michael Jordan would be a >> Uh I think Michael Jordan would be a good example of this. Have you heard good example of this. Have you heard good example of this. Have you heard NovakJovich's NovakJovich's NovakJovich's uh interview where he's asked why are uh interview where he's asked why are uh interview where he's asked why are you so good at tennis? And he says I you so good at tennis? And he says I you so good at tennis? And he says I just like hitting the ball. just like hitting the ball. just like hitting the ball. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> Yeah. Um whereas you know Jordan >> Yeah. Um whereas you know Jordan >> Yeah. Um whereas you know Jordan invented rivalries like he invented invented rivalries like he invented invented rivalries like he invented slights against himself. There was was slights against himself. There was was slights against himself. There was was it 92 or 93 it 92 or 93 it 92 or 93 >> very driven human being. >> very driven human being. >> very driven human being. >> He he wins some I think it's his >> He he wins some I think it's his >> He he wins some I think it's his induction into the Hall of Fame and induction into the Hall of Fame and induction into the Hall of Fame and during that speech during that speech during that speech this this is the moment that you've this this is the moment that you've this this is the moment that you've worked supposedly your entire career worked supposedly your entire career worked supposedly your entire career for. for. for. >> He takes a shot at somebody, right? He >> He takes a shot at somebody, right? He >> He takes a shot at somebody, right? He spends the entire speech spends the entire speech spends the entire speech just revealing all of the slights that just revealing all of the slights that just revealing all of the slights that from his past and this person and this from his past and this person and this from his past and this person and this they didn't believe that I'm getting d they didn't believe that I'm getting d they didn't believe that I'm getting d you're even at the moment where you've you're even at the moment where you've you're even at the moment where you've broken through escape velocity you're broken through escape velocity you're broken through escape velocity you're you're out in space you're out in space you're out in space still still still >> I don't I don't love that that much you >> I don't I don't love that that much you >> I don't I don't love that that much you know I love know I love know I love >> it's not the energy that I have. >> it's not the energy that I have. >> it's not the energy that I have. >> Yeah. So >> Yeah. So >> Yeah. So >> there's a there's a there's a counter >> there's a there's a there's a counter >> there's a there's a there's a counter example to that. There's this thing you example to that. There's this thing you example to that. There's this thing you can find on YouTube where Shaq was on uh can find on YouTube where Shaq was on uh can find on YouTube where Shaq was on uh the that famous show that he does with the that famous show that he does with the that famous show that he does with with Kenny and and Charles and Ernie and with Kenny and and Charles and Ernie and with Kenny and and Charles and Ernie and um inside the NBA I think it's called. um inside the NBA I think it's called. um inside the NBA I think it's called. uh the uh he's at the All-Star thing and uh the uh he's at the All-Star thing and uh the uh he's at the All-Star thing and there's all these legends there and he there's all these legends there and he there's all these legends there and he just kind of goes off on his own talking just kind of goes off on his own talking just kind of goes off on his own talking and he talks for like five minutes and and he talks for like five minutes and and he talks for like five minutes and they don't interrupt him and he's they don't interrupt him and he's they don't interrupt him and he's telling his story of how he made it and telling his story of how he made it and telling his story of how he made it and all the people that influenced him along all the people that influenced him along all the people that influenced him along the way and how he views all these the way and how he views all these the way and how he views all these legends as idols and he just goes on legends as idols and he just goes on legends as idols and he just goes on he's just thought thankful like gracious he's just thought thankful like gracious he's just thought thankful like gracious for four or five minutes and Ernie's for four or five minutes and Ernie's for four or five minutes and Ernie's crying by the time he's done. And I love crying by the time he's done. And I love crying by the time he's done. And I love watching it. I've watched it probably 10 watching it. I've watched it probably 10 watching it. I've watched it probably 10 times. I just love the notion that you times. I just love the notion that you times. I just love the notion that you carry that much um carry that much um carry that much um thankfulness for the others that helped thankfulness for the others that helped thankfulness for the others that helped you get where you are. And I think in you get where you are. And I think in you get where you are. And I think in conveying that it maybe in in it makes conveying that it maybe in in it makes conveying that it maybe in in it makes him look like remarkable, you know, it him look like remarkable, you know, it him look like remarkable, you know, it really does like that he that his really does like that he that his really does like that he that his brain's wired that way. I I felt very brain's wired that way. I I felt very brain's wired that way. I I felt very proud of him. Like I have no reason to proud of him. Like I have no reason to proud of him. Like I have no reason to be proud of him and he probably couldn't be proud of him and he probably couldn't be proud of him and he probably couldn't care less that I am proud of him, but I care less that I am proud of him, but I care less that I am proud of him, but I it was uh it was I like that I like that it was uh it was I like that I like that it was uh it was I like that I like that version better. version better. version better. >> It feels much more pro-social. >> It feels much more pro-social. >> It feels much more pro-social. >> Yes. I suppose >> Yes. I suppose >> Yes. I suppose the problem is the problem is ultimately the problem is the problem is ultimately the problem is the problem is ultimately what matters is performance especially what matters is performance especially what matters is performance especially in an industry like that. You know if in an industry like that. You know if in an industry like that. You know if Michael Jordan was some middling or Michael Jordan was some middling or Michael Jordan was some middling or pretty poor quality basketball player pretty poor quality basketball player pretty poor quality basketball player >> true >> true >> true >> calling out all of these people and >> calling out all of these people and >> calling out all of these people and inventing random rivalries to try and inventing random rivalries to try and inventing random rivalries to try and motivate himself to go people would look motivate himself to go people would look motivate himself to go people would look and say you're just bitter. And the same and say you're just bitter. And the same and say you're just bitter. And the same thing with Shaq. If Shaq, who had a thing with Shaq. If Shaq, who had a thing with Shaq. If Shaq, who had a version of him that hadn't achieved all version of him that hadn't achieved all version of him that hadn't achieved all of that, was, of that, was, of that, was, >> you know, prolitizing about these >> you know, prolitizing about these >> you know, prolitizing about these wonderful people and how grateful he wonderful people and how grateful he wonderful people and how grateful he would be called a suckup. would be called a suckup. would be called a suckup. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this is >> And this is >> And this is >> that's fair. >> that's fair. >> that's fair. >> The the >> The the >> The the medium is the message, but the medal is medium is the message, but the medal is medium is the message, but the medal is the message very much for this stuff. the message very much for this stuff. the message very much for this stuff. >> Well, and look, that is more of a finite >> Well, and look, that is more of a finite >> Well, and look, that is more of a finite game, right? like that is then I you'd game, right? like that is then I you'd game, right? like that is then I you'd use downhill skiing but there are like use downhill skiing but there are like use downhill skiing but there are like those kind of competitive sports you may those kind of competitive sports you may those kind of competitive sports you may need to be sharp elbow to climb to the need to be sharp elbow to climb to the need to be sharp elbow to climb to the top top top >> if you're an author the same thing is >> if you're an author the same thing is >> if you're an author the same thing is not true not true not true >> that's right that's my main point and >> that's right that's my main point and >> that's right that's my main point and most of the careers most of us chase most of the careers most of us chase most of the careers most of us chase that's not that that's not a reality um that's not that that's not a reality um that's not that that's not a reality um but but I also have a principle always but but I also have a principle always but but I also have a principle always give back which is why I I feel warmly give back which is why I I feel warmly give back which is why I I feel warmly about the Shaq thing which is I I think about the Shaq thing which is I I think about the Shaq thing which is I I think that the minute you move from the first that the minute you move from the first that the minute you move from the first rung to the second rung of the ladder. rung to the second rung of the ladder. rung to the second rung of the ladder. If you take the time to appreciate the If you take the time to appreciate the If you take the time to appreciate the people that helped you with that people that helped you with that people that helped you with that movement, you will develop a process movement, you will develop a process movement, you will develop a process that you will feel really good about at that you will feel really good about at that you will feel really good about at the end of your life. And um your the end of your life. And um your the end of your life. And um your network of supporters will grow faster. network of supporters will grow faster. network of supporters will grow faster. You'll have more friends in your corner. You'll have more friends in your corner. You'll have more friends in your corner. >> You're seen as the pro-social hub as >> You're seen as the pro-social hub as >> You're seen as the pro-social hub as opposed to the person that stepped on a opposed to the person that stepped on a opposed to the person that stepped on a bunch as they correct they come up. bunch as they correct they come up. bunch as they correct they come up. Yeah. you'll be able to weather the bad Yeah. you'll be able to weather the bad Yeah. you'll be able to weather the bad times and enjoy the good times more. times and enjoy the good times more. times and enjoy the good times more. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But so you talk about honing your craft. >> But so you talk about honing your craft. >> But so you talk about honing your craft. Kind of interested in what that looks Kind of interested in what that looks Kind of interested in what that looks like in knowledge work when there's like in knowledge work when there's like in knowledge work when there's there's no clear scoreboard. there's no clear scoreboard. there's no clear scoreboard. >> Well, here here's here's what I would >> Well, here here's here's what I would >> Well, here here's here's what I would say is and and I think this relates to say is and and I think this relates to say is and and I think this relates to this college grind. I think some of this college grind. I think some of this college grind. I think some of these kids are so burned out by the time these kids are so burned out by the time these kids are so burned out by the time they get to the end of their senior year they get to the end of their senior year they get to the end of their senior year in college that they can't wait to not in college that they can't wait to not in college that they can't wait to not study anymore. like they they view it as study anymore. like they they view it as study anymore. like they they view it as okay 12 years plus four 16 I'm done and okay 12 years plus four 16 I'm done and okay 12 years plus four 16 I'm done and they're looking for a break from they're looking for a break from they're looking for a break from studying and the best in their field studying and the best in their field studying and the best in their field like Danny Meyer are studying all the like Danny Meyer are studying all the like Danny Meyer are studying all the time and so that's a that's a weird time and so that's a that's a weird time and so that's a that's a weird contrast like and there are fields where contrast like and there are fields where contrast like and there are fields where continuous learning is somewhat required continuous learning is somewhat required continuous learning is somewhat required the the medical profession is one where the the medical profession is one where the the medical profession is one where that happens um and obviously ly there that happens um and obviously ly there that happens um and obviously ly there are fields like uh ballet where if are fields like uh ballet where if are fields like uh ballet where if someone says they work 16 hours a week someone says they work 16 hours a week someone says they work 16 hours a week we or a day we all applaud it which is we or a day we all applaud it which is we or a day we all applaud it which is weird because if you said that about a weird because if you said that about a weird because if you said that about a engineering career they'd say you're a engineering career they'd say you're a engineering career they'd say you're a bad human you know but whatever um so bad human you know but whatever um so bad human you know but whatever um so this this this notion of learning this this this notion of learning this this this notion of learning constantly in your spare time I think constantly in your spare time I think constantly in your spare time I think it's just the best test of whether it's just the best test of whether it's just the best test of whether you're truly obsessed with what you're you're truly obsessed with what you're you're truly obsessed with what you're doing. Do you remember when do you doing. Do you remember when do you doing. Do you remember when do you remember when Elon took over X and he remember when Elon took over X and he remember when Elon took over X and he did that announcement post and he said did that announcement post and he said did that announcement post and he said we are looking for people who want to we are looking for people who want to we are looking for people who want to work on the hardest problems possible as work on the hardest problems possible as work on the hardest problems possible as long as they can at an unrelenting pace long as they can at an unrelenting pace long as they can at an unrelenting pace to try and change the world. And there to try and change the world. And there to try and change the world. And there was a lot of quote tweets of this saying was a lot of quote tweets of this saying was a lot of quote tweets of this saying we're throwing it back to a version of we're throwing it back to a version of we're throwing it back to a version of work life balance that is completely work life balance that is completely work life balance that is completely primitive. primitive. primitive. >> This is abuse. This is horrendous. All >> This is abuse. This is horrendous. All >> This is abuse. This is horrendous. All the rest of it. And don't get me wrong, the rest of it. And don't get me wrong, the rest of it. And don't get me wrong, there are certainly some bosses in some there are certainly some bosses in some there are certainly some bosses in some industries that will drive their industries that will drive their industries that will drive their employees so hard that it's employees so hard that it's employees so hard that it's irresponsible. But if you're stating it irresponsible. But if you're stating it irresponsible. But if you're stating it upfront, upfront, upfront, >> y >> y >> y >> what all of those people that quote >> what all of those people that quote >> what all of those people that quote tweeted it and complained about Elon's tweeted it and complained about Elon's tweeted it and complained about Elon's horrendous working conditions failed to horrendous working conditions failed to horrendous working conditions failed to understand is there are people out there understand is there are people out there understand is there are people out there to whom that sounds like a dream. Yes, to whom that sounds like a dream. Yes, to whom that sounds like a dream. Yes, >> they want to work 18 hours a day fueled >> they want to work 18 hours a day fueled >> they want to work 18 hours a day fueled exclusively on highquality stimulants exclusively on highquality stimulants exclusively on highquality stimulants and and and Chick-fil-A, Chick-fil-A, Chick-fil-A, >> especially if they get to hang around >> especially if they get to hang around >> especially if they get to hang around with the smartest people. They with the smartest people. They with the smartest people. They >> and they want to be pushing each other >> and they want to be pushing each other >> and they want to be pushing each other and they want they want to send it. They and they want they want to send it. They and they want they want to send it. They want to send the living [ __ ] out of it. want to send the living [ __ ] out of it. want to send the living [ __ ] out of it. >> You know who's doing that right now, >> You know who's doing that right now, >> You know who's doing that right now, which is super interesting? The Young AI which is super interesting? The Young AI which is super interesting? The Young AI founders. They they've embraced this uh founders. They they've embraced this uh founders. They they've embraced this uh meme from China 996. It actually was meme from China 996. It actually was meme from China 996. It actually was developed in China which means uh 9 9:00 developed in China which means uh 9 9:00 developed in China which means uh 9 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. 6 days a week. a.m. to 9:00 p.m. 6 days a week. a.m. to 9:00 p.m. 6 days a week. >> That's what it stands for. But they used >> That's what it stands for. But they used >> That's what it stands for. But they used the phrase and Silicon Valley got lazy the phrase and Silicon Valley got lazy the phrase and Silicon Valley got lazy in co. So you have the situation where in co. So you have the situation where in co. So you have the situation where the broader culture had moved from being the broader culture had moved from being the broader culture had moved from being formerly a bit workaholic to being lazy formerly a bit workaholic to being lazy formerly a bit workaholic to being lazy and despite the you know they they and despite the you know they they and despite the you know they they literally aren't coming into the office. literally aren't coming into the office. literally aren't coming into the office. You can go in downtown San Francisco and You can go in downtown San Francisco and You can go in downtown San Francisco and look through buildings, you know, look through buildings, you know, look through buildings, you know, because there's so much cubicle space because there's so much cubicle space because there's so much cubicle space with no one there. with no one there. with no one there. >> And these young kids in this AI world >> And these young kids in this AI world >> And these young kids in this AI world >> eating their lunch >> eating their lunch >> eating their lunch >> are the ones you're talking about that >> are the ones you're talking about that >> are the ones you're talking about that want that experience. want that experience. want that experience. >> Who are some examples of those? >> Who are some examples of those? >> Who are some examples of those? >> I I think almost all of I'm I'm I'm >> I I think almost all of I'm I'm I'm >> I I think almost all of I'm I'm I'm serious. Almost all of the AI companies serious. Almost all of the AI companies serious. Almost all of the AI companies in San Francisco have this mindset in San Francisco have this mindset in San Francisco have this mindset especially if they have a young founder especially if they have a young founder especially if they have a young founder like a 20 22 which is but there but it like a 20 22 which is but there but it like a 20 22 which is but there but it it it it it it it I'm agreeing with you like this notion I'm agreeing with you like this notion I'm agreeing with you like this notion that okay you don't like it because you that okay you don't like it because you that okay you don't like it because you don't think there's work life balance. don't think there's work life balance. don't think there's work life balance. Do you think it should be illegal for Do you think it should be illegal for Do you think it should be illegal for them to do it? them to do it? them to do it? >> Like like I don't >> Like like I don't >> Like like I don't they choose their own life. It's kind of they choose their own life. It's kind of they choose their own life. It's kind of the argument for drug legalization, but the argument for drug legalization, but the argument for drug legalization, but it's workload legalization. Exactly. If it's workload legalization. Exactly. If it's workload legalization. Exactly. If you're doing it and it doesn't hurt you're doing it and it doesn't hurt you're doing it and it doesn't hurt anybody else, you do to your workload as anybody else, you do to your workload as anybody else, you do to your workload as you wish. you wish. you wish. >> But I would say this, if you're um >> But I would say this, if you're um >> But I would say this, if you're um you do need to recognize that you might you do need to recognize that you might you do need to recognize that you might one day be competing with someone that one day be competing with someone that one day be competing with someone that >> has that mindset. >> has that mindset. >> has that mindset. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And that's where I go back to like do >> And that's where I go back to like do >> And that's where I go back to like do what you love because if you're sitting what you love because if you're sitting what you love because if you're sitting next to that person next to that person next to that person >> and you're white knuckling it and >> and you're white knuckling it and >> and you're white knuckling it and they're loving every moment, they're loving every moment, they're loving every moment, >> Yeah. you're probably going to lose >> Yeah. you're probably going to lose >> Yeah. you're probably going to lose because they're at home learning in because they're at home learning in because they're at home learning in those extra hours stuff you're not like those extra hours stuff you're not like those extra hours stuff you're not like there's no way to keep up. there's no way to keep up. there's no way to keep up. >> Yeah. Well, the the it is even if every >> Yeah. Well, the the it is even if every >> Yeah. Well, the the it is even if every small if every iteration of you doing a small if every iteration of you doing a small if every iteration of you doing a thing degrades your willpower, drive, thing degrades your willpower, drive, thing degrades your willpower, drive, whatever, even by the tiniest tiniest whatever, even by the tiniest tiniest whatever, even by the tiniest tiniest tiniest amount, it is just a single tiniest amount, it is just a single tiniest amount, it is just a single direction direction direction trajectory from you to crash land into trajectory from you to crash land into trajectory from you to crash land into burnout. Well, and the gap is going to burnout. Well, and the gap is going to burnout. Well, and the gap is going to grow. And and and I'll tell you one grow. And and and I'll tell you one grow. And and and I'll tell you one other thing which I I stumbled upon other thing which I I stumbled upon other thing which I I stumbled upon which I think is an interesting which I think is an interesting which I think is an interesting juiposition. juiposition. juiposition. If you're a grinder, if you followed the If you're a grinder, if you followed the If you're a grinder, if you followed the path you were told to follow, you went path you were told to follow, you went path you were told to follow, you went to the school you were told to go to, to the school you were told to go to, to the school you were told to go to, you got in the program you were told to you got in the program you were told to you got in the program you were told to go to, you became certified as an go to, you became certified as an go to, you became certified as an accountant or an engineer, whatever this accountant or an engineer, whatever this accountant or an engineer, whatever this thing is you did, but you don't love it. thing is you did, but you don't love it. thing is you did, but you don't love it. You're in that place you were talking You're in that place you were talking You're in that place you were talking about. I suspect for those people AI about. I suspect for those people AI about. I suspect for those people AI scares the living [ __ ] out of them. Like scares the living [ __ ] out of them. Like scares the living [ __ ] out of them. Like they view AI as they view AI as they view AI as >> grind versus grind. >> grind versus grind. >> grind versus grind. >> It's gonna out it's gonna crush me. It's >> It's gonna out it's gonna crush me. It's >> It's gonna out it's gonna crush me. It's going to I'm going to lose my job. Look going to I'm going to lose my job. Look going to I'm going to lose my job. Look at this world that's unfair. Now, if you at this world that's unfair. Now, if you at this world that's unfair. Now, if you contrast that with someone who is a contrast that with someone who is a contrast that with someone who is a proactive, independent climber who's proactive, independent climber who's proactive, independent climber who's trying to build their craft, their trying to build their craft, their trying to build their craft, their world, they're a continuous learner. For world, they're a continuous learner. For world, they're a continuous learner. For that person, AI is a jetpack. Like, like that person, AI is a jetpack. Like, like that person, AI is a jetpack. Like, like they can now do more things faster that they can now do more things faster that they can now do more things faster that they wanted to do and they can achieve they wanted to do and they can achieve they wanted to do and they can achieve more than they were able to before. more than they were able to before. more than they were able to before. >> They get to run extra fast. Like, so so >> They get to run extra fast. Like, so so >> They get to run extra fast. Like, so so two two people maybe in a in a same two two people maybe in a in a same two two people maybe in a in a same station in life, AI looks like the station in life, AI looks like the station in life, AI looks like the opposite to them. opposite to them. opposite to them. >> A threat or a a nitrous turbo boost. >> A threat or a a nitrous turbo boost. >> A threat or a a nitrous turbo boost. >> Yes. A quick aside, if you've noticed >> Yes. A quick aside, if you've noticed >> Yes. A quick aside, if you've noticed your energy isn't quite what it used to your energy isn't quite what it used to your energy isn't quite what it used to be, even though you eat well and stay be, even though you eat well and stay be, even though you eat well and stay active, there might be a reason for active, there might be a reason for active, there might be a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, which that. As we age, our mitochondria, which that. As we age, our mitochondria, which is the parts of our cells that produce is the parts of our cells that produce is the parts of our cells that produce energy, become weaker and make less energy, become weaker and make less energy, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I am such a huge energy, which is why I am such a huge energy, which is why I am such a huge fan of Timeline. They developed this fan of Timeline. They developed this fan of Timeline. They developed this pill right here that helps clear out pill right here that helps clear out pill right here that helps clear out damaged mitochondria so your cells can damaged mitochondria so your cells can damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. And this actually renew themselves. And this actually renew themselves. And this isn't just theory. In clinical trials, isn't just theory. In clinical trials, isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal people saw mitochondrial renewal people saw mitochondrial renewal increase by more than 40% in just 16 increase by more than 40% in just 16 increase by more than 40% in just 16 weeks along with improvements in their weeks along with improvements in their weeks along with improvements in their overall energy. Timeline is backed by overall energy. Timeline is backed by overall energy. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research. It has more over a decade of research. It has more over a decade of research. It has more than 50 patterns and is the number one than 50 patterns and is the number one than 50 patterns and is the number one doctor recommended mitochondrial doctor recommended mitochondrial doctor recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. I started supplement on the planet. I started supplement on the planet. I started taking it nearly 2 years ago because it taking it nearly 2 years ago because it taking it nearly 2 years ago because it was recommended to me by my doctor and was recommended to me by my doctor and was recommended to me by my doctor and that is why I've used it for so long that is why I've used it for so long that is why I've used it for so long since way before I knew who made the since way before I knew who made the since way before I knew who made the product and that is why I partnered with product and that is why I partnered with product and that is why I partnered with them. Best of all, there's a 30-day them. Best of all, there's a 30-day them. Best of all, there's a 30-day money back guarantee, plus free shipping money back guarantee, plus free shipping money back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US. And they ship in the US. And they ship in the US. And they ship internationally. So, right now, you can internationally. So, right now, you can internationally. So, right now, you can get up to 20% off and that 30-day money get up to 20% off and that 30-day money get up to 20% off and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in back guarantee by going to the link in back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to the description below or heading to the description below or heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom. timeline.com/modernwisdom. timeline.com/modernwisdom. That's timeline.com/modernwisdom. Can I read you an essay that I wrote? Can I read you an essay that I wrote? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Cool. So, >> Cool. So, >> Cool. So, >> uh, guidance doesn't sculpt us into >> uh, guidance doesn't sculpt us into >> uh, guidance doesn't sculpt us into something new. It exaggerates who we something new. It exaggerates who we something new. It exaggerates who we were already. The patent is almost were already. The patent is almost were already. The patent is almost cruel. The ones who least need the cruel. The ones who least need the cruel. The ones who least need the medicine are the ones most likely to medicine are the ones most likely to medicine are the ones most likely to overdose on it, while the ones who need overdose on it, while the ones who need overdose on it, while the ones who need it desperately are immune. Advice it desperately are immune. Advice it desperately are immune. Advice doesn't land evenly. It finds the path doesn't land evenly. It finds the path doesn't land evenly. It finds the path of least resistance and tends to be of least resistance and tends to be of least resistance and tends to be absorbed by people who already lean in absorbed by people who already lean in absorbed by people who already lean in its direction. So, I first started its direction. So, I first started its direction. So, I first started thinking about this when considering the thinking about this when considering the thinking about this when considering the postmeto instruction of don't be pushy postmeto instruction of don't be pushy postmeto instruction of don't be pushy with women. And I realized that it made with women. And I realized that it made with women. And I realized that it made conscientious, anxious guys even more conscientious, anxious guys even more conscientious, anxious guys even more timid. Yes. timid. Yes. timid. Yes. >> While the dudes that were blowing >> While the dudes that were blowing >> While the dudes that were blowing through boundaries just didn't take through boundaries just didn't take through boundaries just didn't take heed. Exactly. Or another example of the heed. Exactly. Or another example of the heed. Exactly. Or another example of the prescription to just work harder. prescription to just work harder. prescription to just work harder. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That gets devoured by the insecure >> That gets devoured by the insecure >> That gets devoured by the insecure overachiever who's already bleeding overachiever who's already bleeding overachiever who's already bleeding effort into every crack of their day effort into every crack of their day effort into every crack of their day while the genuinely lazy person just while the genuinely lazy person just while the genuinely lazy person just coasts past it unchanged. The call to coasts past it unchanged. The call to coasts past it unchanged. The call to take more responsibility encourages the take more responsibility encourages the take more responsibility encourages the one who always thinks that it's their one who always thinks that it's their one who always thinks that it's their fault to carry even more of the load fault to carry even more of the load fault to carry even more of the load while the ones who constantly point the while the ones who constantly point the while the ones who constantly point the finger elsewhere never change. There's a finger elsewhere never change. There's a finger elsewhere never change. There's a bunch of reasons. People filter it bunch of reasons. People filter it bunch of reasons. People filter it through their existing traits. It through their existing traits. It through their existing traits. It amplifies predisposition instead of amplifies predisposition instead of amplifies predisposition instead of correcting overbalance. We all want to correcting overbalance. We all want to correcting overbalance. We all want to be good, so we sort of overindex be good, so we sort of overindex be good, so we sort of overindex guidance that flatters our self-image. guidance that flatters our self-image. guidance that flatters our self-image. But I think the most influential one is But I think the most influential one is But I think the most influential one is that the the pieces of advice that match that the the pieces of advice that match that the the pieces of advice that match our inner fears are the ones that we our inner fears are the ones that we our inner fears are the ones that we believe the most. So an anxious man believe the most. So an anxious man believe the most. So an anxious man doesn't just hear don't be pushy. He doesn't just hear don't be pushy. He doesn't just hear don't be pushy. He feels that it confirms the fear. Any feels that it confirms the fear. Any feels that it confirms the fear. Any move he makes is already too much. The move he makes is already too much. The move he makes is already too much. The sensitive man doesn't just hear open up sensitive man doesn't just hear open up sensitive man doesn't just hear open up more. He feels it confirms the worry more. He feels it confirms the worry more. He feels it confirms the worry that he's emotionally inadequate. even that he's emotionally inadequate. even that he's emotionally inadequate. even when he's already oversharing. And for when he's already oversharing. And for when he's already oversharing. And for what we're talking about, the insecure what we're talking about, the insecure what we're talking about, the insecure overachiever doesn't just hear work overachiever doesn't just hear work overachiever doesn't just hear work harder. They feel it confirms the harder. They feel it confirms the harder. They feel it confirms the suspicion that they're never enough suspicion that they're never enough suspicion that they're never enough regardless of how hard they try. And regardless of how hard they try. And regardless of how hard they try. And this to me the the um this to me the the um this to me the the um disproportionate way that advice, you disproportionate way that advice, you disproportionate way that advice, you call them advice hyperresponders, right? call them advice hyperresponders, right? call them advice hyperresponders, right? The same piece of advice goes in very The same piece of advice goes in very The same piece of advice goes in very different directions to two different different directions to two different different directions to two different people. Um, I do still think that people. Um, I do still think that people. Um, I do still think that developing a grind capacity is developing a grind capacity is developing a grind capacity is important. important. important. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But if you don't have the passion part, >> But if you don't have the passion part, >> But if you don't have the passion part, if you don't actually care about it, you if you don't actually care about it, you if you don't actually care about it, you can drive really, really fast in a can drive really, really fast in a can drive really, really fast in a direction you don't want to go. And direction you don't want to go. And direction you don't want to go. And that's the problem that you will look that's the problem that you will look that's the problem that you will look back on a career where you white back on a career where you white back on a career where you white knuckled a [ __ ] ton of lorded but largely unfulfilling lorded but largely unfulfilling wins. Yeah. And and and look, I'm I'm wins. Yeah. And and and look, I'm I'm wins. Yeah. And and and look, I'm I'm somebody that I don't think you feel somebody that I don't think you feel somebody that I don't think you feel this if you switch jobs at three years, this if you switch jobs at three years, this if you switch jobs at three years, but when you when you reach a a a true but when you when you reach a a a true but when you when you reach a a a true retirement and I'll be 60 next year. And retirement and I'll be 60 next year. And retirement and I'll be 60 next year. And when I decided that, okay, I loved every when I decided that, okay, I loved every when I decided that, okay, I loved every minute of being a venture capitalist, minute of being a venture capitalist, minute of being a venture capitalist, but it's time for me to to pass it on to but it's time for me to to pass it on to but it's time for me to to pass it on to the next generation and move out of the the next generation and move out of the the next generation and move out of the way. It's reflective like, oh [ __ ] I'm way. It's reflective like, oh [ __ ] I'm way. It's reflective like, oh [ __ ] I'm I'm there. like I've and uh I'm there. like I've and uh I'm there. like I've and uh I think it's hard when you're 25 I think it's hard when you're 25 I think it's hard when you're 25 I I think when you're one of the I I think when you're one of the I I think when you're one of the benefits of being 18 is you don't see benefits of being 18 is you don't see benefits of being 18 is you don't see the end of times at all the end of times at all the end of times at all >> like and that gives you all kind of >> like and that gives you all kind of >> like and that gives you all kind of superpowers like to to play. um there's superpowers like to to play. um there's superpowers like to to play. um there's some point at which you realize there's some point at which you realize there's some point at which you realize there's an end to all of this and for this an end to all of this and for this an end to all of this and for this particular thing about your career I particular thing about your career I particular thing about your career I think the sooner you can feel that the think the sooner you can feel that the think the sooner you can feel that the better just but because if you do want a better just but because if you do want a better just but because if you do want a different at bat like different at bat like different at bat like >> you want to frontload that fear a little >> you want to frontload that fear a little >> you want to frontload that fear a little bit bit bit >> yeah if you can I don't know if >> yeah if you can I don't know if >> yeah if you can I don't know if everybody can everybody can everybody can >> um >> um >> um >> well I certainly know that the regret >> well I certainly know that the regret >> well I certainly know that the regret minimization thing. There's a variety of minimization thing. There's a variety of minimization thing. There's a variety of different exercises that are done. different exercises that are done. different exercises that are done. >> George, my housemate, used to think he >> George, my housemate, used to think he >> George, my housemate, used to think he did this. He did this 6 years ago. I did this. He did this 6 years ago. I did this. He did this 6 years ago. I remember him telling me about this six remember him telling me about this six remember him telling me about this six years ago and I thought it was insane. I years ago and I thought it was insane. I years ago and I thought it was insane. I kind of still think it's insane now, but kind of still think it's insane now, but kind of still think it's insane now, but I know he still does it. I think it's I know he still does it. I think it's I know he still does it. I think it's one morning a month. He's got a reminder one morning a month. He's got a reminder one morning a month. He's got a reminder on his phone. He wakes up, he lies in on his phone. He wakes up, he lies in on his phone. He wakes up, he lies in bed, and he imagines what it would be bed, and he imagines what it would be bed, and he imagines what it would be like to have no arms or legs. viscerally thinks about what it would be viscerally thinks about what it would be like to have no arms or legs for 30 like to have no arms or legs for 30 like to have no arms or legs for 30 minutes minutes minutes >> to be grateful. Is that >> to be grateful. Is that >> to be grateful. Is that >> to to and then to be reborn into this >> to to and then to be reborn into this >> to to and then to be reborn into this body? body? body? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> With the arms and the legs. So, I've >> With the arms and the legs. So, I've >> With the arms and the legs. So, I've been I've been really pushing hard over been I've been really pushing hard over been I've been really pushing hard over the last 18 months uh on emotional work. the last 18 months uh on emotional work. the last 18 months uh on emotional work. um trying to get below the neck as as um trying to get below the neck as as um trying to get below the neck as as I've said I've said I've said >> and uh I think a big part of it is this >> and uh I think a big part of it is this >> and uh I think a big part of it is this that how many smart people who know all that how many smart people who know all that how many smart people who know all of the insight they could do an expected of the insight they could do an expected of the insight they could do an expected value calculation about the likelihood value calculation about the likelihood value calculation about the likelihood of the success and what is the objective of the success and what is the objective of the success and what is the objective quantifiable uh utility of enjoyment quantifiable uh utility of enjoyment quantifiable uh utility of enjoyment versus but then you've got hidden and versus but then you've got hidden and versus but then you've got hidden and observable problem coming through again observable problem coming through again observable problem coming through again >> um but ultimately what that strategy >> um but ultimately what that strategy >> um but ultimately what that strategy from George is trying to do what or from George is trying to do what or from George is trying to do what or regret minimization thing is trying to regret minimization thing is trying to regret minimization thing is trying to do is not really frontload more do is not really frontload more do is not really frontload more information. It's trying to overload information. It's trying to overload information. It's trying to overload emotion. It's like, oh my god, there is emotion. It's like, oh my god, there is emotion. It's like, oh my god, there is a there's a great [ __ ] workbook from a there's a great [ __ ] workbook from a there's a great [ __ ] workbook from Tony Robbins, Unleash the Giant Tony Robbins, Unleash the Giant Tony Robbins, Unleash the Giant >> within >> within >> within >> within, but it's this weird 1994 >> within, but it's this weird 1994 >> within, but it's this weird 1994 Audible workbook and it's only an hour Audible workbook and it's only an hour Audible workbook and it's only an hour and a half long and I can't even find and a half long and I can't even find and a half long and I can't even find it. Listen, I've got it in my Audible. it. Listen, I've got it in my Audible. it. Listen, I've got it in my Audible. George has got it in his a couple of our George has got it in his a couple of our George has got it in his a couple of our friends that we've sent it to. I can't friends that we've sent it to. I can't friends that we've sent it to. I can't even find it publicly. I don't know what even find it publicly. I don't know what even find it publicly. I don't know what [ __ ] it's your hacker friends that [ __ ] it's your hacker friends that [ __ ] it's your hacker friends that have got us under the back. have got us under the back. have got us under the back. >> And in it, he's got this thing where he >> And in it, he's got this thing where he >> And in it, he's got this thing where he says, "Imagine what it's cost you in the says, "Imagine what it's cost you in the says, "Imagine what it's cost you in the past. Imagine what it's costing you now. past. Imagine what it's costing you now. past. Imagine what it's costing you now. Imagine what it will cost you in the Imagine what it will cost you in the Imagine what it will cost you in the future." He wants you to overload the future." He wants you to overload the future." He wants you to overload the pain. It's like feel as much of it as pain. It's like feel as much of it as pain. It's like feel as much of it as possible. All of the rumination and the possible. All of the rumination and the possible. All of the rumination and the grief and the wisfulness and everything grief and the wisfulness and everything grief and the wisfulness and everything that from what's happened that from what's happened that from what's happened >> and right now, how is it affecting you? >> and right now, how is it affecting you? >> and right now, how is it affecting you? How is it limiting your time? How is it How is it limiting your time? How is it How is it limiting your time? How is it stopping your happiness and the future? stopping your happiness and the future? stopping your happiness and the future? What is it going to do to you? What's What is it going to do to you? What's What is it going to do to you? What's life going to be like if nothing changes life going to be like if nothing changes life going to be like if nothing changes for a decade, for two decades, three for a decade, for two decades, three for a decade, for two decades, three decades? decades? decades? >> What are you going to be like? What are >> What are you going to be like? What are >> What are you going to be like? What are your relationships going to be like? The your relationships going to be like? The your relationships going to be like? The quality of your mind, your health, quality of your mind, your health, quality of your mind, your health, everything. everything. everything. >> And then imagine >> And then imagine >> And then imagine >> what life could be like if you changed. >> what life could be like if you changed. >> what life could be like if you changed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he's trying to get you to oscillate >> And he's trying to get you to oscillate >> And he's trying to get you to oscillate between this pain, pleasure principle. between this pain, pleasure principle. between this pain, pleasure principle. Yeah. And uh I've had to make some you I Yeah. And uh I've had to make some you I Yeah. And uh I've had to make some you I I moved from the UK. I was 32 years 33 I moved from the UK. I was 32 years 33 I moved from the UK. I was 32 years 33 nearly 33 years old with a successful nearly 33 years old with a successful nearly 33 years old with a successful career in the UK running nightclubs one career in the UK running nightclubs one career in the UK running nightclubs one of the biggest events companies in the of the biggest events companies in the of the biggest events companies in the north of England. It's something I north of England. It's something I north of England. It's something I dedicated 15 years of my life to. Co had dedicated 15 years of my life to. Co had dedicated 15 years of my life to. Co had just happened and nightclubs were just just happened and nightclubs were just just happened and nightclubs were just reopening reopening reopening and the clubs reopened and I didn't want and the clubs reopened and I didn't want and the clubs reopened and I didn't want to go back. I just wanted to do the to go back. I just wanted to do the to go back. I just wanted to do the podcast. podcast. podcast. >> And that was the exercise that you went >> And that was the exercise that you went >> And that was the exercise that you went through through through >> and I presume zero regrets about the >> and I presume zero regrets about the >> and I presume zero regrets about the move at this point. the best single move at this point. the best single move at this point. the best single decision that I ever made in my entire decision that I ever made in my entire decision that I ever made in my entire life. But even with that in going back, life. But even with that in going back, life. But even with that in going back, I I don't have the borrowed authority of I I don't have the borrowed authority of I I don't have the borrowed authority of my fears from back then. Uh so this is a my fears from back then. Uh so this is a my fears from back then. Uh so this is a a great idea from Morgan. You should I a great idea from Morgan. You should I a great idea from Morgan. You should I I'll send you this once we're done. It's I'll send you this once we're done. It's I'll send you this once we're done. It's this wonderful blog post. He talks about this wonderful blog post. He talks about this wonderful blog post. He talks about nostalgia and about how we we sort of nostalgia and about how we we sort of nostalgia and about how we we sort of we're unable to see the pains from the we're unable to see the pains from the we're unable to see the pains from the past, especially when we've moved on. We past, especially when we've moved on. We past, especially when we've moved on. We don't see our fears from the past don't see our fears from the past don't see our fears from the past particularly well. So him and his wife particularly well. So him and his wife particularly well. So him and his wife uh are talking about when they used to uh are talking about when they used to uh are talking about when they used to live in New York and they were in their live in New York and they were in their live in New York and they were in their 20ies before they had kids. And he's 20ies before they had kids. And he's 20ies before they had kids. And he's saying to his wife, "Wasn't it so saying to his wife, "Wasn't it so saying to his wife, "Wasn't it so wonderful? We used to wake up on a wonderful? We used to wake up on a wonderful? We used to wake up on a Saturday, we could lie in bed, we'd get Saturday, we could lie in bed, we'd get Saturday, we could lie in bed, we'd get a coffee, we could just walk around. We a coffee, we could just walk around. We a coffee, we could just walk around. We had no responsib D. D. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And Morgan realized that in retrospect, >> And Morgan realized that in retrospect, >> And Morgan realized that in retrospect, all of his fears that were a waste of all of his fears that were a waste of all of his fears that were a waste of time, he knows were a waste of time. time, he knows were a waste of time. time, he knows were a waste of time. >> He didn't need to worry. So what he sees >> He didn't need to worry. So what he sees >> He didn't need to worry. So what he sees is how he should have felt. is how he should have felt. is how he should have felt. >> I got you. >> I got you. >> I got you. >> Knowing how well life was going to go. >> Knowing how well life was going to go. >> Knowing how well life was going to go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So this it's the same reason that no one >> So this it's the same reason that no one >> So this it's the same reason that no one ever believes we're living through a ever believes we're living through a ever believes we're living through a golden era. Golden eras only exist in golden era. Golden eras only exist in golden era. Golden eras only exist in our memory. our memory. our memory. >> And uh all of that together, you know, I >> And uh all of that together, you know, I >> And uh all of that together, you know, I can't see. I know that I had the fear. can't see. I know that I had the fear. can't see. I know that I had the fear. I've got the [ __ ] journal. I've got I've got the [ __ ] journal. I've got I've got the [ __ ] journal. I've got the journals on on on my Apple Notes the journals on on on my Apple Notes the journals on on on my Apple Notes still of what if I do this thing and it still of what if I do this thing and it still of what if I do this thing and it goes wrong and everyone's going to laugh goes wrong and everyone's going to laugh goes wrong and everyone's going to laugh at me and I'm going to have to come back at me and I'm going to have to come back at me and I'm going to have to come back and live in my mom and dad's spare room and live in my mom and dad's spare room and live in my mom and dad's spare room and I'm going to have a gluten and I'm going to have a gluten and I'm going to have a gluten intolerance and a club foot be under a intolerance and a club foot be under a intolerance and a club foot be under a bridge and it's all going to be and yeah bridge and it's all going to be and yeah bridge and it's all going to be and yeah I had it have not gone well maybe that I had it have not gone well maybe that I had it have not gone well maybe that would have been the case but would have been the case but would have been the case but that is the worst possible scenario and that is the worst possible scenario and that is the worst possible scenario and there were a million there's gradations there were a million there's gradations there were a million there's gradations between the best one and the worst one. between the best one and the worst one. between the best one and the worst one. Uh but yeah, I I uh am really proud of Uh but yeah, I I uh am really proud of Uh but yeah, I I uh am really proud of making that decision. But I even that making that decision. But I even that making that decision. But I even that the best single decision I ever made in the best single decision I ever made in the best single decision I ever made in my life, I still had to apply a [ __ ] my life, I still had to apply a [ __ ] my life, I still had to apply a [ __ ] galactic volume of pain galactic volume of pain galactic volume of pain and the same amount of pleasure in a and the same amount of pleasure in a and the same amount of pleasure in a desperate attempt to galvanize me to do desperate attempt to galvanize me to do desperate attempt to galvanize me to do it. So yeah, even even decisions which it. So yeah, even even decisions which it. So yeah, even even decisions which in retrospect feel very obvious, I think in retrospect feel very obvious, I think in retrospect feel very obvious, I think at the time require inhuman amounts of at the time require inhuman amounts of at the time require inhuman amounts of motivation to go to get the activation motivation to go to get the activation motivation to go to get the activation energy to get you moving. energy to get you moving. energy to get you moving. >> I like the battle card notion. I mean, >> I like the battle card notion. I mean, >> I like the battle card notion. I mean, it's similar to some of the designing it's similar to some of the designing it's similar to some of the designing your life stuff, but like allowing your life stuff, but like allowing your life stuff, but like allowing yourself to fully imagine the other yourself to fully imagine the other yourself to fully imagine the other reality, you know, and and and without reality, you know, and and and without reality, you know, and and and without the comparison, like while you're while the comparison, like while you're while the comparison, like while you're while you're doing it, like really imagine you're doing it, like really imagine you're doing it, like really imagine every element of it every element of it every element of it >> and on its own and then maybe go back >> and on its own and then maybe go back >> and on its own and then maybe go back and do the one you have and then and do the one you have and then and do the one you have and then battlecard them. I love that idea. I battlecard them. I love that idea. I battlecard them. I love that idea. I think one of the reasons I was a useful think one of the reasons I was a useful think one of the reasons I was a useful venture capitalist and um one of the venture capitalist and um one of the venture capitalist and um one of the reasons I this regret minimization thing reasons I this regret minimization thing reasons I this regret minimization thing worked for me is I think I'm very good worked for me is I think I'm very good worked for me is I think I'm very good at bringing forward the future in my at bringing forward the future in my at bringing forward the future in my brain brain brain >> like like extrapolating back if you will >> like like extrapolating back if you will >> like like extrapolating back if you will like almost like a uh life NPV kind of like almost like a uh life NPV kind of like almost like a uh life NPV kind of thing like just able to do that and thing like just able to do that and thing like just able to do that and >> it's like reverse time travel. >> it's like reverse time travel. >> it's like reverse time travel. >> Yes. and and it makes those exercises >> Yes. and and it makes those exercises >> Yes. and and it makes those exercises work better. You know, the fact that I work better. You know, the fact that I work better. You know, the fact that I somehow can do that in my brain. Um, so somehow can do that in my brain. Um, so somehow can do that in my brain. Um, so >> speaking of that, you're a very >> speaking of that, you're a very >> speaking of that, you're a very successful investor. What were you successful investor. What were you successful investor. What were you looking for in the founders that you looking for in the founders that you looking for in the founders that you invested in? What were the traits? What invested in? What were the traits? What invested in? What were the traits? What was the global was the global was the global >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> decision framework? >> decision framework? >> decision framework? >> And and a lot of VCs say the same things >> And and a lot of VCs say the same things >> And and a lot of VCs say the same things over and over, so I'm a little hesitant, over and over, so I'm a little hesitant, over and over, so I'm a little hesitant, but I'll do it anyway. Um the one that but I'll do it anyway. Um the one that but I'll do it anyway. Um the one that took me the longest to fully recognize took me the longest to fully recognize took me the longest to fully recognize is how important product product is how important product product is how important product product instincts are. So that's critical like instincts are. So that's critical like instincts are. So that's critical like like new most of these companies are like new most of these companies are like new most of these companies are riding some new wave like this AI wave riding some new wave like this AI wave riding some new wave like this AI wave and the product uh surfaces of the new and the product uh surfaces of the new and the product uh surfaces of the new thing aren't as well understood as the thing aren't as well understood as the thing aren't as well understood as the ones of the old thing. Think about the ones of the old thing. Think about the ones of the old thing. Think about the mobile movement. mobile movement. mobile movement. >> So you're predicting >> So you're predicting >> So you're predicting >> and you need instinct to get that right. >> and you need instinct to get that right. >> and you need instinct to get that right. Like you just need instinct. you got to Like you just need instinct. you got to Like you just need instinct. you got to be ahead of the market. be ahead of the market. be ahead of the market. >> Humans and how humans like to interface >> Humans and how humans like to interface >> Humans and how humans like to interface with things and a whole bunch of stuff. with things and a whole bunch of stuff. with things and a whole bunch of stuff. So products a big one. Um salesmanship So products a big one. Um salesmanship So products a big one. Um salesmanship is a huge one that that people probably is a huge one that that people probably is a huge one that that people probably don't think about enough. But if you're don't think about enough. But if you're don't think about enough. But if you're a founder, you're selling to new a founder, you're selling to new a founder, you're selling to new investors. You're selling to employees. investors. You're selling to employees. investors. You're selling to employees. You own the company culture and the You own the company culture and the You own the company culture and the perception of the company. You're perception of the company. You're perception of the company. You're striking deals. You're selling to striking deals. You're selling to striking deals. You're selling to customers. you're just out selling all customers. you're just out selling all customers. you're just out selling all you're the number one sales you're the you're the number one sales you're the you're the number one sales you're the chief salesperson for your company and chief salesperson for your company and chief salesperson for your company and if you're no good at it um you will if you're no good at it um you will if you're no good at it um you will struggle. So that that's another one. struggle. So that that's another one. struggle. So that that's another one. Determinism, you know, and it kind of Determinism, you know, and it kind of Determinism, you know, and it kind of goes back to everything we're talking goes back to everything we're talking goes back to everything we're talking about with chasing your dreams, but you about with chasing your dreams, but you about with chasing your dreams, but you know, Josh Wolf at Lux Capital says, know, Josh Wolf at Lux Capital says, know, Josh Wolf at Lux Capital says, "Chips on shoulders put chips in "Chips on shoulders put chips in "Chips on shoulders put chips in pockets." And pockets." And pockets." And >> like like someone that that maybe failed >> like like someone that that maybe failed >> like like someone that that maybe failed a couple times. a couple times. a couple times. >> Got a point to prove. >> Got a point to prove. >> Got a point to prove. >> Oh man, you want to feel that like you >> Oh man, you want to feel that like you >> Oh man, you want to feel that like you want to feel that they're never going to want to feel that they're never going to want to feel that they're never going to give up. give up. give up. >> Bit of grit. >> Bit of grit. >> Bit of grit. >> Yes. Like not a bit like you want you >> Yes. Like not a bit like you want you >> Yes. Like not a bit like you want you want top 1 percentile. want top 1 percentile. want top 1 percentile. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You want to be afraid a little bit >> You want to be afraid a little bit >> You want to be afraid a little bit >> about how determined they are? >> about how determined they are? >> about how determined they are? >> You know >> You know >> You know >> what was that line? Uh is this person >> what was that line? Uh is this person >> what was that line? Uh is this person going to do this no matter what? Was going to do this no matter what? Was going to do this no matter what? Was that Bezos? that Bezos? that Bezos? >> Bezos. I I asked Bezos. You found that? >> Bezos. I I asked Bezos. You found that? >> Bezos. I I asked Bezos. You found that? I asked Bezos once how he could be such I asked Bezos once how he could be such I asked Bezos once how he could be such a successful angel investor because he's a successful angel investor because he's a successful angel investor because he's running the largest employment count running the largest employment count running the largest employment count company in the world. company in the world. company in the world. >> There's other [ __ ] to do. Yeah, exactly. >> There's other [ __ ] to do. Yeah, exactly. >> There's other [ __ ] to do. Yeah, exactly. >> He has less time than you to scrutinize >> He has less time than you to scrutinize >> He has less time than you to scrutinize this this this >> way less. Yeah. >> way less. Yeah. >> way less. Yeah. >> And he said the only thing he looks for >> And he said the only thing he looks for >> And he said the only thing he looks for is the determinism. Uh is this person is the determinism. Uh is this person is the determinism. Uh is this person going to do this no matter what? And all going to do this no matter what? And all going to do this no matter what? And all of his questions of his questions of his questions >> that's so cool. >> that's so cool. >> that's so cool. >> All of his questions were around that >> All of his questions were around that >> All of his questions were around that one very thing. one very thing. one very thing. >> What if this? How would you approach >> What if this? How would you approach >> What if this? How would you approach that? How have you in the past done over that? How have you in the past done over that? How have you in the past done over >> why are you doing it? Like >> why are you doing it? Like >> why are you doing it? Like >> you know what if this comes up? Like >> you know what if this comes up? Like >> you know what if this comes up? Like what if someone offered you that? You what if someone offered you that? You what if someone offered you that? You know, know, know, >> I had a conversation with a a friend a >> I had a conversation with a a friend a >> I had a conversation with a a friend a few years ago and he gave this wonderful few years ago and he gave this wonderful few years ago and he gave this wonderful example of champions. He says, example of champions. He says, example of champions. He says, "Everybody looks at champions to try and "Everybody looks at champions to try and "Everybody looks at champions to try and find what they have that other people find what they have that other people find what they have that other people don't have, but they've got it don't have, but they've got it don't have, but they've got it completely backward." Champions miss completely backward." Champions miss completely backward." Champions miss something that normal people do have, something that normal people do have, something that normal people do have, which is an off switch. which is an off switch. which is an off switch. >> Yes. And when you're talking about a >> Yes. And when you're talking about a >> Yes. And when you're talking about a zero sum game or a game that's more zero sum game or a game that's more zero sum game or a game that's more competitive, found a world, competitive, found a world, competitive, found a world, >> you're looking for somebody who will go >> you're looking for somebody who will go >> you're looking for somebody who will go to unreasonable lengths. And I suppose to unreasonable lengths. And I suppose to unreasonable lengths. And I suppose this is why this is why this is why uh strong ethics too, if you care about uh strong ethics too, if you care about uh strong ethics too, if you care about the ethics of the companies that you're the ethics of the companies that you're the ethics of the companies that you're going to invest in because that chip on going to invest in because that chip on going to invest in because that chip on shoulder, that determinism shoulder, that determinism shoulder, that determinism >> could push you right across the line. >> could push you right across the line. >> could push you right across the line. >> Very, very >> Very, very >> Very, very >> a lot of these people live on the line. >> a lot of these people live on the line. >> a lot of these people live on the line. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just it is what it is. >> It's just it is what it is. >> It's just it is what it is. Um, when you said that, I couldn't help Um, when you said that, I couldn't help Um, when you said that, I couldn't help but and I it's horrible the accident she but and I it's horrible the accident she but and I it's horrible the accident she had, but I couldn't help but think of had, but I couldn't help but think of had, but I couldn't help but think of Lindsay Vaughn. Like she had a Lindsay Vaughn. Like she had a Lindsay Vaughn. Like she had a >> Who's that? >> Who's that? >> Who's that? >> Lindsay Vaughn's the downhill skier >> Lindsay Vaughn's the downhill skier >> Lindsay Vaughn's the downhill skier that's 41 42 and is in the Olympics that's 41 42 and is in the Olympics that's 41 42 and is in the Olympics right now. right now. right now. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And um, you know, she had retired a >> And um, you know, she had retired a >> And um, you know, she had retired a while back and came back, trained again, while back and came back, trained again, while back and came back, trained again, was her her trial times were highly was her her trial times were highly was her her trial times were highly competitive. Um but um early when she competitive. Um but um early when she competitive. Um but um early when she got to Italy, she injured her her ACL got to Italy, she injured her her ACL got to Italy, she injured her her ACL and she put on a brace and said, "I'm and she put on a brace and said, "I'm and she put on a brace and said, "I'm going to compete anyway." going to compete anyway." going to compete anyway." And unfortunately had an accident that And unfortunately had an accident that And unfortunately had an accident that went to the hospitals, had three went to the hospitals, had three went to the hospitals, had three surgeries, surgeries, surgeries, >> snapped her [ __ ] >> snapped her [ __ ] >> snapped her [ __ ] >> Yeah. But but to be in your 40s >> Yeah. But but to be in your 40s >> Yeah. But but to be in your 40s >> and coming back >> and coming back >> and coming back >> in some ways, look, >> in some ways, look, >> in some ways, look, >> somewhat injured and I'm like, I'm going >> somewhat injured and I'm like, I'm going >> somewhat injured and I'm like, I'm going anyway. anyway. anyway. >> Sending it anyway. Look, I I I I didn't >> Sending it anyway. Look, I I I I didn't >> Sending it anyway. Look, I I I I didn't know about this story. Um, know about this story. Um, know about this story. Um, >> this just happened like a week ago. >> this just happened like a week ago. >> this just happened like a week ago. >> I kind of like it. >> I kind of like it. >> I kind of like it. >> I kind of like it. What a way to go out. >> I kind of like it. What a way to go out. >> I kind of like it. What a way to go out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> You're going to be laid up. >> You're going to be laid up. >> You're going to be laid up. >> Better to burn out than to fade away. >> Better to burn out than to fade away. >> Better to burn out than to fade away. >> Well, could you imagine? Again, that is >> Well, could you imagine? Again, that is >> Well, could you imagine? Again, that is and this a [ __ ] wonderful little and this a [ __ ] wonderful little and this a [ __ ] wonderful little microcosm of exactly what we were microcosm of exactly what we were microcosm of exactly what we were talking about. What about that open talking about. What about that open talking about. What about that open loop? loop? loop? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Would my ACL have held up? >> Would my ACL have held up? >> Would my ACL have held up? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Would it have held up? Am I going to go >> Would it have held up? Am I going to go >> Would it have held up? Am I going to go back at 45? back at 45? back at 45? >> No, I'm not going back at 45. >> No, I'm not going back at 45. >> No, I'm not going back at 45. >> No. No, it's the last shot. >> No. No, it's the last shot. >> No. No, it's the last shot. >> This is it. >> This is it. >> This is it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I kind of like it. >> So, I kind of like it. >> So, I kind of like it. >> Fair enough. >> Fair enough. >> Fair enough. >> I'm sure that her surgeon doesn't like >> I'm sure that her surgeon doesn't like >> I'm sure that her surgeon doesn't like it. Or maybe he does if he's paid well, it. Or maybe he does if he's paid well, it. Or maybe he does if he's paid well, but I'm sure her physio and her strength but I'm sure her physio and her strength but I'm sure her physio and her strength and conditioning coach don't like it. and conditioning coach don't like it. and conditioning coach don't like it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, going back to the founder thing, >> Um, going back to the founder thing, >> Um, going back to the founder thing, >> is the founder more important than the >> is the founder more important than the >> is the founder more important than the company to you in some ways? Would you company to you in some ways? Would you company to you in some ways? Would you bet just on a founder that this person bet just on a founder that this person bet just on a founder that this person will find a thing? Well, here's one one will find a thing? Well, here's one one will find a thing? Well, here's one one proof point that would speak to this is proof point that would speak to this is proof point that would speak to this is um there there are multiple companies um there there are multiple companies um there there are multiple companies that the original idea completely failed that the original idea completely failed that the original idea completely failed and the founder was able to pivot to and the founder was able to pivot to and the founder was able to pivot to something entirely new and be wildly something entirely new and be wildly something entirely new and be wildly successful. successful. successful. >> Like Slack is an example. It was a game >> Like Slack is an example. It was a game >> Like Slack is an example. It was a game company and the game failed but they had company and the game failed but they had company and the game failed but they had built this tool to develop the game. built this tool to develop the game. built this tool to develop the game. >> I didn't know about that. Um, Discord, >> I didn't know about that. Um, Discord, >> I didn't know about that. Um, Discord, who's one of our companies, was also a who's one of our companies, was also a who's one of our companies, was also a game company that failed and launched game company that failed and launched game company that failed and launched this Skype alternative for communicating this Skype alternative for communicating this Skype alternative for communicating during games that became wildly during games that became wildly during games that became wildly successful. And for any venture successful. And for any venture successful. And for any venture capitalist that's been through one of capitalist that's been through one of capitalist that's been through one of those pivots, they're famously known as those pivots, they're famously known as those pivots, they're famously known as pivots now. Um, it's all about the pivots now. Um, it's all about the pivots now. Um, it's all about the person. Like, it's all about the person. Like, it's all about the person. Like, it's all about the founder. like um there's also a data founder. like um there's also a data founder. like um there's also a data point that most venture capitalists will point that most venture capitalists will point that most venture capitalists will quote and I'm sure it's not scientific quote and I'm sure it's not scientific quote and I'm sure it's not scientific but a new CEO hires a 50/50 bet at best. but a new CEO hires a 50/50 bet at best. but a new CEO hires a 50/50 bet at best. So why if you're doing positive like So why if you're doing positive like So why if you're doing positive like trying to run MPVS would you even take trying to run MPVS would you even take trying to run MPVS would you even take the risk of hiring a CEO because you're the risk of hiring a CEO because you're the risk of hiring a CEO because you're going to there's a 50-50 chance you'd going to there's a 50-50 chance you'd going to there's a 50-50 chance you'd just get a bad apple in which case it's just get a bad apple in which case it's just get a bad apple in which case it's all toast. So yeah, there's and and that all toast. So yeah, there's and and that all toast. So yeah, there's and and that lore goes beyond me. I mean, I think the lore goes beyond me. I mean, I think the lore goes beyond me. I mean, I think the the founder the founder the founder um um um mythology, if you will, is quite high in mythology, if you will, is quite high in mythology, if you will, is quite high in Silicon Valley for all those reasons. Silicon Valley for all those reasons. Silicon Valley for all those reasons. Now, there are times where you have no Now, there are times where you have no Now, there are times where you have no other option. And there are there's way other option. And there are there's way other option. And there are there's way more stories. This is kind of an odd more stories. This is kind of an odd more stories. This is kind of an odd fact, but companies that serve fact, but companies that serve fact, but companies that serve businesses businesses businesses um have a much higher success rate of um have a much higher success rate of um have a much higher success rate of replacing the founder than companies replacing the founder than companies replacing the founder than companies that serve consumers. that serve consumers. that serve consumers. >> Why do you think that is? >> Why do you think that is? >> Why do you think that is? >> My best guess is consumers are more >> My best guess is consumers are more >> My best guess is consumers are more fickle and that that product thing is fickle and that that product thing is fickle and that that product thing is just more um artistic, you know, more just more um artistic, you know, more just more um artistic, you know, more >> like a taste again. >> like a taste again. >> like a taste again. >> Yes. It's more like a movie than than >> Yes. It's more like a movie than than >> Yes. It's more like a movie than than >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> Business and business products are more >> Business and business products are more >> Business and business products are more systematic. systematic. systematic. >> Yeah. Yeah. You can algorithm that down >> Yeah. Yeah. You can algorithm that down >> Yeah. Yeah. You can algorithm that down to to to >> Steve Jobs once said that the difference >> Steve Jobs once said that the difference >> Steve Jobs once said that the difference is the buyer in a business isn't the is the buyer in a business isn't the is the buyer in a business isn't the user >> and he made that point and that may be >> and he made that point and that may be it like that may be the essence of it. it like that may be the essence of it. it like that may be the essence of it. >> That's cool. I um this thing that the >> That's cool. I um this thing that the >> That's cool. I um this thing that the beverage that you're drinking is mine beverage that you're drinking is mine beverage that you're drinking is mine and it's the first big company that and it's the first big company that and it's the first big company that hasn't been something that I've directly hasn't been something that I've directly hasn't been something that I've directly operated aggressively myself that I've operated aggressively myself that I've operated aggressively myself that I've founded. And um founded. And um founded. And um one of the interesting elements that one of the interesting elements that one of the interesting elements that I've seen with this where we we did a I've seen with this where we we did a I've seen with this where we we did a raise last year, we raised 3.4 raise last year, we raised 3.4 raise last year, we raised 3.4 million and right now we're in the million and right now we're in the million and right now we're in the middle of raising six in a bit. Uh, I'm middle of raising six in a bit. Uh, I'm middle of raising six in a bit. Uh, I'm watching Luke, who is one of the watching Luke, who is one of the watching Luke, who is one of the co-founders today. He drove from co-founders today. He drove from co-founders today. He drove from Portsmouth on the South Coast to Leads, Portsmouth on the South Coast to Leads, Portsmouth on the South Coast to Leads, which is 5 and a half hours away. It's which is 5 and a half hours away. It's which is 5 and a half hours away. It's [ __ ] forever away. Drove to Leeds for [ __ ] forever away. Drove to Leeds for [ __ ] forever away. Drove to Leeds for one investor meeting. Yeah. one investor meeting. Yeah. one investor meeting. Yeah. >> Just sit down with this guy. And when >> Just sit down with this guy. And when >> Just sit down with this guy. And when you think about as you're sort of you think about as you're sort of you think about as you're sort of reeling off all of these different reeling off all of these different reeling off all of these different traits that he's that that you would traits that he's that that you would traits that he's that that you would have sort of the obsession, the have sort of the obsession, the have sort of the obsession, the determinism, and um what's been cool is determinism, and um what's been cool is determinism, and um what's been cool is to see you almost get to learn what to see you almost get to learn what to see you almost get to learn what people think of you when you do people think of you when you do people think of you when you do fundraising when you're trying to get fundraising when you're trying to get fundraising when you're trying to get cash to inject into a business that's cash to inject into a business that's cash to inject into a business that's yours. You almost see in the responses yours. You almost see in the responses yours. You almost see in the responses from people. And uh a couple of times we from people. And uh a couple of times we from people. And uh a couple of times we sent the deck out. This was in the first sent the deck out. This was in the first sent the deck out. This was in the first one. So, we send this deck out and it's one. So, we send this deck out and it's one. So, we send this deck out and it's all sexy and it's got the numbers and all sexy and it's got the numbers and all sexy and it's got the numbers and the projections and all the rest of it. the projections and all the rest of it. the projections and all the rest of it. One of my friends sent a reply to the One of my friends sent a reply to the One of my friends sent a reply to the deck and he made a meme. Have you seen deck and he made a meme. Have you seen deck and he made a meme. Have you seen the Midwit meme? You familiar with this? the Midwit meme? You familiar with this? the Midwit meme? You familiar with this? On the left hand side is sort of a On the left hand side is sort of a On the left hand side is sort of a Neanderthal guy and on the right hand Neanderthal guy and on the right hand Neanderthal guy and on the right hand side is a sage that looks like a Jedi. side is a sage that looks like a Jedi. side is a sage that looks like a Jedi. In the middle is a guy that In the middle is a guy that In the middle is a guy that overcomplicates everything and he's sort overcomplicates everything and he's sort overcomplicates everything and he's sort of screaming and getting and the joke is of screaming and getting and the joke is of screaming and getting and the joke is that the guy on the left and the guy on that the guy on the left and the guy on that the guy on the left and the guy on the right always agree. Uh, if it's the right always agree. Uh, if it's the right always agree. Uh, if it's going to the gym, it's uh, lift weights, going to the gym, it's uh, lift weights, going to the gym, it's uh, lift weights, eat protein. Lift weights, eat protein. eat protein. Lift weights, eat protein. eat protein. Lift weights, eat protein. The guy in the middle, I must ensure The guy in the middle, I must ensure The guy in the middle, I must ensure that my scientifically accurate that my scientifically accurate that my scientifically accurate predigested whey is consumed within a 30 predigested whey is consumed within a 30 predigested whey is consumed within a 30 minute. And he replied with that meme. minute. And he replied with that meme. minute. And he replied with that meme. >> And he said, uh, the guy in the middle >> And he said, uh, the guy in the middle >> And he said, uh, the guy in the middle said, uh, read the deck, make expected said, uh, read the deck, make expected said, uh, read the deck, make expected value calculation, uh, check against value calculation, uh, check against value calculation, uh, check against finances. And the guy on the left and finances. And the guy on the left and finances. And the guy on the left and the guy on the right said, I bet on the guy on the right said, I bet on the guy on the right said, I bet on Chris. Chris. Chris. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I bet on Chris. I bet on Chris. And it >> I bet on Chris. I bet on Chris. And it >> I bet on Chris. I bet on Chris. And it was really interesting to see. Do people was really interesting to see. Do people was really interesting to see. Do people look at you or Luke who's my guy or look at you or Luke who's my guy or look at you or Luke who's my guy or James who's one of the other co-founders James who's one of the other co-founders James who's one of the other co-founders do they look at you and go I just you'll do they look at you and go I just you'll do they look at you and go I just you'll make it work no matter what. make it work no matter what. make it work no matter what. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh that was cool. It's the first >> And uh that was cool. It's the first >> And uh that was cool. It's the first time that I've I've time that I've I've time that I've I've >> you can take that too far. I I've met >> you can take that too far. I I've met >> you can take that too far. I I've met with founders who who are anti-deck. I with founders who who are anti-deck. I with founders who who are anti-deck. I even wrote a blog post called in defense even wrote a blog post called in defense even wrote a blog post called in defense of the deck because they of the deck because they of the deck because they >> got to make sure that you don't misspell >> got to make sure that you don't misspell >> got to make sure that you don't misspell one of those words. But yes, one of those words. But yes, one of those words. But yes, >> they walk in the they walk in the room >> they walk in the they walk in the room >> they walk in the they walk in the room and just want to chat and you know and just want to chat and you know and just want to chat and you know nothing about the business. You know nothing about the business. You know nothing about the business. You know jack [ __ ] and I don't want to learn jack [ __ ] and I don't want to learn jack [ __ ] and I don't want to learn about the business through a prompt with about the business through a prompt with about the business through a prompt with this human. Like it's too hard. You this human. Like it's too hard. You this human. Like it's too hard. You can't get enough information fast enough can't get enough information fast enough can't get enough information fast enough through that. So I and and I in in this through that. So I and and I in in this through that. So I and and I in in this blog post which I'd encourage people to blog post which I'd encourage people to blog post which I'd encourage people to find, I show Steve Jobs, Mark Benny off, find, I show Steve Jobs, Mark Benny off, find, I show Steve Jobs, Mark Benny off, Jeff Bezos in front of a deck like Jeff Bezos in front of a deck like Jeff Bezos in front of a deck like >> it's Hey, look guys, it's good enough >> it's Hey, look guys, it's good enough >> it's Hey, look guys, it's good enough for them. No, no, no. I don't I don't for them. No, no, no. I don't I don't for them. No, no, no. I don't I don't disagree. I'm not advising people. disagree. I'm not advising people. disagree. I'm not advising people. People are prepared. If you are [ __ ] People are prepared. If you are [ __ ] People are prepared. If you are [ __ ] investing in Newtonic, please investing in Newtonic, please investing in Newtonic, please scrutinize. scrutinize. scrutinize. >> But I but but I want to say one other >> But I but but I want to say one other >> But I but but I want to say one other thing about this because I think it gets thing about this because I think it gets thing about this because I think it gets more to the point of of what you said. more to the point of of what you said. more to the point of of what you said. Um most people perceive venture Um most people perceive venture Um most people perceive venture capitalists to be making investments the capitalists to be making investments the capitalists to be making investments the way maybe a a buyside public investor way maybe a a buyside public investor way maybe a a buyside public investor might be. If it's positive IRR and I'll might be. If it's positive IRR and I'll might be. If it's positive IRR and I'll make 14%, I'll do it. But venture make 14%, I'll do it. But venture make 14%, I'll do it. But venture capitalists have a limited number of capitalists have a limited number of capitalists have a limited number of boards they can go on probably two a boards they can go on probably two a boards they can go on probably two a year and and so they don't have limited year and and so they don't have limited year and and so they don't have limited shot unlimited shots on goal. They can't shot unlimited shots on goal. They can't shot unlimited shots on goal. They can't fund everything that's over 12% hurdle fund everything that's over 12% hurdle fund everything that's over 12% hurdle rate. They have to fall in love. And it rate. They have to fall in love. And it rate. They have to fall in love. And it goes back to what we were saying with goes back to what we were saying with goes back to what we were saying with stories and all this stuff about people stories and all this stuff about people stories and all this stuff about people like they're going to pull the trigger like they're going to pull the trigger like they're going to pull the trigger because they have an emotional positive because they have an emotional positive because they have an emotional positive bias to go do this thing. bias to go do this thing. bias to go do this thing. that taps in. It's It's about Chris for that taps in. It's It's about Chris for that taps in. It's It's about Chris for sure. Yep. sure. Yep. sure. Yep. >> But there's they also need to kind of >> But there's they also need to kind of >> But there's they also need to kind of love the category and love the idea and love the category and love the idea and love the category and love the idea and want to spend 10 years working on the want to spend 10 years working on the want to spend 10 years working on the problem. Like all those things like it problem. Like all those things like it problem. Like all those things like it needs it they have to flip from zero to needs it they have to flip from zero to needs it they have to flip from zero to one in their own head. Yeah. one in their own head. Yeah. one in their own head. Yeah. >> In this human's head. >> In this human's head. >> In this human's head. >> Does that make it harder for businesses >> Does that make it harder for businesses >> Does that make it harder for businesses that are less sexy? that are less sexy? that are less sexy? >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. Unquestionably. Unquestionably. Unquestionably. That's why there's like these uh these That's why there's like these uh these That's why there's like these uh these mid-market PE people like they they go mid-market PE people like they they go mid-market PE people like they they go do they go do those things. I don't even do they go do those things. I don't even do they go do those things. I don't even I would never be motivated by it but but I would never be motivated by it but but I would never be motivated by it but but you know I'm not not necessarily you know I'm not not necessarily you know I'm not not necessarily [ __ ] on them too bad like somebody [ __ ] on them too bad like somebody [ __ ] on them too bad like somebody there are you can make money there are there are you can make money there are there are you can make money there are things to be done you know things to be done you know things to be done you know >> but but I also would say and I think >> but but I also would say and I think >> but but I also would say and I think this is important um um there are this is important um um there are this is important um um there are businesses that shouldn't take venture businesses that shouldn't take venture businesses that shouldn't take venture capital and um a series A typically capital and um a series A typically capital and um a series A typically leads to a B and typically leads to a C leads to a B and typically leads to a C leads to a B and typically leads to a C and the ownership that a founder has can and the ownership that a founder has can and the ownership that a founder has can shrink pretty dramatically. And then the shrink pretty dramatically. And then the shrink pretty dramatically. And then the exit value, the exit value you need to exit value, the exit value you need to exit value, the exit value you need to make the same amount of money had you make the same amount of money had you make the same amount of money had you sold it 100% on sweat equity is now 10 sold it 100% on sweat equity is now 10 sold it 100% on sweat equity is now 10 times higher. times higher. times higher. >> And just make sure you think through all >> And just make sure you think through all >> And just make sure you think through all that somehow that somehow that somehow through the use of these 19 credit cards through the use of these 19 credit cards through the use of these 19 credit cards and everything. By and everything. By and everything. By >> talking the guy behind Tito's >> talking the guy behind Tito's >> talking the guy behind Tito's >> 100% of his and >> 100% of his and >> 100% of his and >> unbelievable. Do you know Gym Shark? You >> unbelievable. Do you know Gym Shark? You >> unbelievable. Do you know Gym Shark? You familiar with Gym Shark? No. So, it's uh familiar with Gym Shark? No. So, it's uh familiar with Gym Shark? No. So, it's uh probably one of the biggest British probably one of the biggest British probably one of the biggest British companies to active. I'm actually companies to active. I'm actually companies to active. I'm actually wearing the the trousers right now. And wearing the the trousers right now. And wearing the the trousers right now. And Ben, the the CEO and founder is a a good Ben, the the CEO and founder is a a good Ben, the the CEO and founder is a a good friend. And um friend. And um friend. And um it is a 2.6 billion pound it is a 2.6 billion pound it is a 2.6 billion pound >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> company and it is uh entirely private. I >> company and it is uh entirely private. I >> company and it is uh entirely private. I think he's still got 75% of it. Yeah. think he's still got 75% of it. Yeah. think he's still got 75% of it. Yeah. >> Himself. It's >> Himself. It's >> Himself. It's >> a lot. But I would say even if you're >> a lot. But I would say even if you're >> a lot. But I would say even if you're going to sell for 20 million, there are going to sell for 20 million, there are going to sell for 20 million, there are far more companies that want to do a far more companies that want to do a far more companies that want to do a tuck in $20 million acquisition than tuck in $20 million acquisition than tuck in $20 million acquisition than want to do a half a billion acquisition. want to do a half a billion acquisition. want to do a half a billion acquisition. Like you're Like you're Like you're >> what's the size of the market you're >> what's the size of the market you're >> what's the size of the market you're selling it to? selling it to? selling it to? >> Well, plus the if you're a large public >> Well, plus the if you're a large public >> Well, plus the if you're a large public company, you can do a $20 million company, you can do a $20 million company, you can do a $20 million acquisition without filing anything, acquisition without filing anything, acquisition without filing anything, without telling anybody. Your boss won't without telling anybody. Your boss won't without telling anybody. Your boss won't care. Um if you own a 100% of a $20 care. Um if you own a 100% of a $20 care. Um if you own a 100% of a $20 million company, that's lifetime wealth. million company, that's lifetime wealth. million company, that's lifetime wealth. like trying to make $20 million selling like trying to make $20 million selling like trying to make $20 million selling a company for half a billion. That's a company for half a billion. That's a company for half a billion. That's hard because it's hard to sell. hard because it's hard to sell. hard because it's hard to sell. >> Fewer people that can buy it. It's going >> Fewer people that can buy it. It's going >> Fewer people that can buy it. It's going to have more scrutiny that goes over the to have more scrutiny that goes over the to have more scrutiny that goes over the top of it. You've now diluted down. top of it. You've now diluted down. top of it. You've now diluted down. >> You need audited financials. You need >> You need audited financials. You need >> You need audited financials. You need like like like they're going to have to file an S8. they're going to have to file an S8. they're going to have to file an S8. There's all this stuff. It get it gets There's all this stuff. It get it gets There's all this stuff. It get it gets really hard to sell a company. really hard to sell a company. really hard to sell a company. >> I don't ever think I don't ever think >> I don't ever think I don't ever think >> I don't ever think I don't ever think about the market of selling a company. about the market of selling a company. about the market of selling a company. You think about the market of the You think about the market of the You think about the market of the company that it sells to. company that it sells to. company that it sells to. >> Yes. That's so cool. >> Yes. That's so cool. >> Yes. That's so cool. >> Yes. Yes. It matters. It really >> Yes. Yes. It matters. It really >> Yes. Yes. It matters. It really mattered. It really mattered. And by the mattered. It really mattered. And by the mattered. It really mattered. And by the way, if you sell that first company for way, if you sell that first company for way, if you sell that first company for 20 million that you own 90% of and you 20 million that you own 90% of and you 20 million that you own 90% of and you want to go take the big shot and raise want to go take the big shot and raise want to go take the big shot and raise money, well, great. Now you now you've money, well, great. Now you now you've money, well, great. Now you now you've got freedom, flexibility, you can take got freedom, flexibility, you can take got freedom, flexibility, you can take all the risk you want. You know, do it all the risk you want. You know, do it all the risk you want. You know, do it the second time. I've seen I've heard a the second time. I've seen I've heard a the second time. I've seen I've heard a bunch of different horror stories about bunch of different horror stories about bunch of different horror stories about founders who've diluted down and diluted founders who've diluted down and diluted founders who've diluted down and diluted down and diluted down and then before down and diluted down and then before down and diluted down and then before they know it they're like what the [ __ ] they know it they're like what the [ __ ] they know it they're like what the [ __ ] am I working for? am I working for? am I working for? >> No doubt. Lick pref is a beast. >> No doubt. Lick pref is a beast. >> No doubt. Lick pref is a beast. >> What's that called? >> What's that called? >> What's that called? >> Liquidation preference. So venture >> Liquidation preference. So venture >> Liquidation preference. So venture capitalists typically take preferred capitalists typically take preferred capitalists typically take preferred stock and it has a term called stock and it has a term called stock and it has a term called liquidation preference which means in a liquidation preference which means in a liquidation preference which means in a sale they get the option to basically sale they get the option to basically sale they get the option to basically treat it like debt. They get paid out treat it like debt. They get paid out treat it like debt. They get paid out first. first. first. >> Wow. in a sale. And so if you've raised >> Wow. in a sale. And so if you've raised >> Wow. in a sale. And so if you've raised in these days with these AI rounds, if in these days with these AI rounds, if in these days with these AI rounds, if you raise 500 million like Common you raise 500 million like Common you raise 500 million like Common doesn't even participate until you get a doesn't even participate until you get a doesn't even participate until you get a sale over that technically. Now it's sale over that technically. Now it's sale over that technically. Now it's often there are carveouts because they often there are carveouts because they often there are carveouts because they have to get something done, but the have to get something done, but the have to get something done, but the bigger that number gets, the more bigger that number gets, the more bigger that number gets, the more weighty it is. weighty it is. weighty it is. >> Yeah. I mean, I I feel fortunate when we >> Yeah. I mean, I I feel fortunate when we >> Yeah. I mean, I I feel fortunate when we did the first raise, I bought back in. I did the first raise, I bought back in. I did the first raise, I bought back in. I didn't want to dilute. Nice. didn't want to dilute. Nice. didn't want to dilute. Nice. >> I threw more money in. I threw more >> I threw more money in. I threw more >> I threw more money in. I threw more money in actually. money in actually. money in actually. >> And by the way, the investors love >> And by the way, the investors love >> And by the way, the investors love seeing that. Love love love seeing that. seeing that. Love love love seeing that. seeing that. Love love love seeing that. >> I I was like, I am not. In fact, I >> I I was like, I am not. In fact, I >> I I was like, I am not. In fact, I gained I gained share of Newtonic when gained I gained share of Newtonic when gained I gained share of Newtonic when we did the raise. So, I bought in over we did the raise. So, I bought in over we did the raise. So, I bought in over the top of where I was already while we the top of where I was already while we the top of where I was already while we were diluting down. were diluting down. were diluting down. >> Hard to do. >> Hard to do. >> Hard to do. >> It was I mean, James James wanted a new >> It was I mean, James James wanted a new >> It was I mean, James James wanted a new Porsche. Porsche. Porsche. >> Um, and he was very gracious and we >> Um, and he was very gracious and we >> Um, and he was very gracious and we shifted some stuff around and I I can't shifted some stuff around and I I can't shifted some stuff around and I I can't remember where else I remember where else I remember where else I >> That's awesome. >> That's awesome. >> That's awesome. >> But no, it was it was cool. And um it's >> But no, it was it was cool. And um it's >> But no, it was it was cool. And um it's been really fun sort of learning about been really fun sort of learning about been really fun sort of learning about that world and now being able to see what's happening being able to see what's happening especially in the world of AI at the especially in the world of AI at the especially in the world of AI at the moment. Oh, that's a question. What what moment. Oh, that's a question. What what moment. Oh, that's a question. What what are you ex most excited about with are you ex most excited about with are you ex most excited about with regards to the industry of AI and what regards to the industry of AI and what regards to the industry of AI and what do you think is overblown? do you think is overblown? do you think is overblown? >> I would I mean be a little redundant but >> I would I mean be a little redundant but >> I would I mean be a little redundant but the thing I'm most excited about is just the thing I'm most excited about is just the thing I'm most excited about is just the personal empowerment. You know, the personal empowerment. You know, the personal empowerment. You know, there's all kind of anthropologists that there's all kind of anthropologists that there's all kind of anthropologists that will tell you we evolve with our tools. will tell you we evolve with our tools. will tell you we evolve with our tools. Humans like like it's very clear, right? Humans like like it's very clear, right? Humans like like it's very clear, right? If I had a plow and a tractor and a and If I had a plow and a tractor and a and If I had a plow and a tractor and a and a and a computer and a chemistry set and a and a computer and a chemistry set and a and a computer and a chemistry set and the other guys the guy in naked and the other guys the guy in naked and the other guys the guy in naked and afraid like I'm going to be more afraid like I'm going to be more afraid like I'm going to be more involved than I can do more stuff. And involved than I can do more stuff. And involved than I can do more stuff. And this is the latest of those things. And this is the latest of those things. And this is the latest of those things. And um anyone that is a skeptic or and I've um anyone that is a skeptic or and I've um anyone that is a skeptic or and I've met a lot of like the top academicians met a lot of like the top academicians met a lot of like the top academicians that are skeptics and all this, you are that are skeptics and all this, you are that are skeptics and all this, you are you're no different than the lites with you're no different than the lites with you're no different than the lites with the with the looms in Europe. Like the with the looms in Europe. Like the with the looms in Europe. Like you're just not. It's the modern version you're just not. It's the modern version you're just not. It's the modern version of that. And the number one thing you of that. And the number one thing you of that. And the number one thing you can do to futureproof yourself is to run can do to futureproof yourself is to run can do to futureproof yourself is to run at it. like to know whatever industry at it. like to know whatever industry at it. like to know whatever industry you're in, there is an edge of what is you're in, there is an edge of what is you're in, there is an edge of what is AI capable of in this industry and you AI capable of in this industry and you AI capable of in this industry and you want to be right there. You want to be want to be right there. You want to be want to be right there. You want to be aware of exactly what that is. And if aware of exactly what that is. And if aware of exactly what that is. And if you are the most AI productive human in you are the most AI productive human in you are the most AI productive human in your field, you're not getting fired. your field, you're not getting fired. your field, you're not getting fired. Like you're you're the one they're Like you're you're the one they're Like you're you're the one they're asking all the questions of like what's asking all the questions of like what's asking all the questions of like what's this capable of? Um, and so I I in in this capable of? Um, and so I I in in this capable of? Um, and so I I in in the in the chapter I have on hone your the in the chapter I have on hone your the in the chapter I have on hone your craft, I say study the history and study craft, I say study the history and study craft, I say study the history and study the edge. Like if you can quote from the the edge. Like if you can quote from the the edge. Like if you can quote from the founding fathers of your industry and founding fathers of your industry and founding fathers of your industry and you know exactly where the technological you know exactly where the technological you know exactly where the technological edge is, you look like a unicorn. You edge is, you look like a unicorn. You edge is, you look like a unicorn. You look look look >> going in the middle is where you die. >> going in the middle is where you die. >> going in the middle is where you die. >> Yeah. I mean, everybody knows the >> Yeah. I mean, everybody knows the >> Yeah. I mean, everybody knows the middle. Like I'm just talking about middle. Like I'm just talking about middle. Like I'm just talking about differentiating yourself. differentiating yourself. differentiating yourself. >> Of course. Of course. >> Of course. Of course. >> Of course. Of course. >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I I find I mean I >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I I find I mean I >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I I find I mean I haven't I I'm anxious. I this why also haven't I I'm anxious. I this why also haven't I I'm anxious. I this why also why I was a a a useful I use the word why I was a a a useful I use the word why I was a a a useful I use the word useful venture capitalist I have FOMO useful venture capitalist I have FOMO useful venture capitalist I have FOMO about new [ __ ] that I don't understand. about new [ __ ] that I don't understand. about new [ __ ] that I don't understand. So up until at least a year or two ago So up until at least a year or two ago So up until at least a year or two ago if something [ __ ] if there's an app in if something [ __ ] if there's an app in if something [ __ ] if there's an app in the app store in the top 10 I've never the app store in the top 10 I've never the app store in the top 10 I've never heard of like hives like I have to know heard of like hives like I have to know heard of like hives like I have to know I have to and uh I have to and uh I have to and uh >> you're allergic to ignorance. >> you're allergic to ignorance. >> you're allergic to ignorance. >> I'm coming off of it a bit because I >> I'm coming off of it a bit because I >> I'm coming off of it a bit because I haven't done a clawbot yet which I feel haven't done a clawbot yet which I feel haven't done a clawbot yet which I feel guilty about. guilty about. guilty about. >> Well you can't get you can't get a >> Well you can't get you can't get a >> Well you can't get you can't get a [ __ ] Mac Mini. That's why you're not [ __ ] Mac Mini. That's why you're not [ __ ] Mac Mini. That's why you're not going to be able to buy them. They're going to be able to buy them. They're going to be able to buy them. They're all sold out. all sold out. all sold out. >> But I feel guilty about that. >> But I feel guilty about that. >> But I feel guilty about that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've got massive >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've got massive >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've got massive >> FOMO FOMO. But but it's useful like and >> FOMO FOMO. But but it's useful like and >> FOMO FOMO. But but it's useful like and so anyway that I I think that um the so anyway that I I think that um the so anyway that I I think that um the there there I would also say this about there there I would also say this about there there I would also say this about AI. If you're not leaning in, not only AI. If you're not leaning in, not only AI. If you're not leaning in, not only people have said there's prompt people have said there's prompt people have said there's prompt engineering skills, not only are you not engineering skills, not only are you not engineering skills, not only are you not learning that, but I find every day I learning that, but I find every day I learning that, but I find every day I think of a new way to use it and a new think of a new way to use it and a new think of a new way to use it and a new way to test what it's capable of. And if way to test what it's capable of. And if way to test what it's capable of. And if you're in it every day, you're helping you're in it every day, you're helping you're in it every day, you're helping to explore that boundary and you're all to explore that boundary and you're all to explore that boundary and you're all of a sudden learning new things. Do you of a sudden learning new things. Do you of a sudden learning new things. Do you understand what I'm saying? like um I understand what I'm saying? like um I understand what I'm saying? like um I had this great experience with the with had this great experience with the with had this great experience with the with the concluding chapter in the book. So the concluding chapter in the book. So the concluding chapter in the book. So my you know almost done wrapping up my you know almost done wrapping up my you know almost done wrapping up feeling good and the editor says Bill feeling good and the editor says Bill feeling good and the editor says Bill take a shot at the conclusion this take a shot at the conclusion this take a shot at the conclusion this weekend. So I spent six hours, seven weekend. So I spent six hours, seven weekend. So I spent six hours, seven hours. I sent him something. He's like, hours. I sent him something. He's like, hours. I sent him something. He's like, "This sucks." Like first time like it "This sucks." Like first time like it "This sucks." Like first time like it was really the first critical fee. He was really the first critical fee. He was really the first critical fee. He didn't use that phrase. I really don't didn't use that phrase. I really don't didn't use that phrase. I really don't like this. So I asked Chat GPT in the like this. So I asked Chat GPT in the like this. So I asked Chat GPT in the pro version, the $200, $300 a month, pro version, the $200, $300 a month, pro version, the $200, $300 a month, whatever it is. Write me a 20page report whatever it is. Write me a 20page report whatever it is. Write me a 20page report on the best concluding chapters in on the best concluding chapters in on the best concluding chapters in non-fiction books of all time and give non-fiction books of all time and give non-fiction books of all time and give me a summary of each and what made it me a summary of each and what made it me a summary of each and what made it special. And in reading through that special. And in reading through that special. And in reading through that list, I noticed that eight or nine of list, I noticed that eight or nine of list, I noticed that eight or nine of the 10 took an orthogonal direction to the 10 took an orthogonal direction to the 10 took an orthogonal direction to the book. So it didn't summarize. the book. So it didn't summarize. the book. So it didn't summarize. >> It brought in a new a new perspective >> It brought in a new a new perspective >> It brought in a new a new perspective >> and that gave me an idea. I I then went >> and that gave me an idea. I I then went >> and that gave me an idea. I I then went and and ideiated on that concept and it and and ideiated on that concept and it and and ideiated on that concept and it gave me a new idea to take it in a gave me a new idea to take it in a gave me a new idea to take it in a different direction and the editor loved different direction and the editor loved different direction and the editor loved it. it. it. >> Huh? >> Huh? >> Huh? >> What was the idea? Um the the not I All >> What was the idea? Um the the not I All >> What was the idea? Um the the not I All right, I'll give this one away. Um the right, I'll give this one away. Um the right, I'll give this one away. Um the concluding chapter is titled It Ain't concluding chapter is titled It Ain't concluding chapter is titled It Ain't Easy. And so the whole book is an Easy. And so the whole book is an Easy. And so the whole book is an exercise in trying to encourage you to exercise in trying to encourage you to exercise in trying to encourage you to go do this. And this is a little warning go do this. And this is a little warning go do this. And this is a little warning at the end like it ain't easy. You got at the end like it ain't easy. You got at the end like it ain't easy. You got to struggle. You got to suffer. You got to struggle. You got to suffer. You got to struggle. You got to suffer. You got to be okay with failure to be okay with failure to be okay with failure >> in praise of the grind. >> in praise of the grind. >> in praise of the grind. >> Yes. And the editor loved it. >> Yes. And the editor loved it. >> Yes. And the editor loved it. >> Good. I think that's I think that's an >> Good. I think that's I think that's an >> Good. I think that's I think that's an important message. important message. important message. >> Yeah. So I if I don't have AI, I don't >> Yeah. So I if I don't have AI, I don't >> Yeah. So I if I don't have AI, I don't do that like you know and it didn't do that like you know and it didn't do that like you know and it didn't write it for me. I it just gave me a new write it for me. I it just gave me a new write it for me. I it just gave me a new lens for how to think about it. Um lens for how to think about it. Um lens for how to think about it. Um >> when it comes to the AI thing, what what >> when it comes to the AI thing, what what >> when it comes to the AI thing, what what do you think it's going to do to the do you think it's going to do to the do you think it's going to do to the field of work generally? What what areas field of work generally? What what areas field of work generally? What what areas would you be worried that are going to would you be worried that are going to would you be worried that are going to be obsolete? um anything that was be obsolete? um anything that was be obsolete? um anything that was synthesizing I mean so the LLM synthesizing I mean so the LLM synthesizing I mean so the LLM large language model is really good at large language model is really good at large language model is really good at text really really good at text text really really good at text text really really good at text manipulation so if your job involved manipulation so if your job involved manipulation so if your job involved searching for text summarizing text um searching for text summarizing text um searching for text summarizing text um anything like that um parallegals are anything like that um parallegals are anything like that um parallegals are already under threat and I have talked already under threat and I have talked already under threat and I have talked to lawyers that have drastically reduced to lawyers that have drastically reduced to lawyers that have drastically reduced the size of their parallegal force. I've the size of their parallegal force. I've the size of their parallegal force. I've talked to them that has already talked to them that has already talked to them that has already happened. Um, coding, it turns out, is happened. Um, coding, it turns out, is happened. Um, coding, it turns out, is highly structured text, more structured highly structured text, more structured highly structured text, more structured than text itself, than text itself, than text itself, >> right? If you think about it, it's got >> right? If you think about it, it's got >> right? If you think about it, it's got more conraints. more conraints. more conraints. >> It there's there's more freedom in >> It there's there's more freedom in >> It there's there's more freedom in actual language text than in coding. And actual language text than in coding. And actual language text than in coding. And that makes and so coding's under threat. that makes and so coding's under threat. that makes and so coding's under threat. And the best people that will write or And the best people that will write or And the best people that will write or will generate the most code in the will generate the most code in the will generate the most code in the future are the ones that learn to to be future are the ones that learn to to be future are the ones that learn to to be able to harness that tool the way a able to harness that tool the way a able to harness that tool the way a farmer learned to use a tractor instead farmer learned to use a tractor instead farmer learned to use a tractor instead of plowing. And that's your only choice. of plowing. And that's your only choice. of plowing. And that's your only choice. Like the the there's no hand hoers Like the the there's no hand hoers Like the the there's no hand hoers anymore. Like they don't exist. And and anymore. Like they don't exist. And and anymore. Like they don't exist. And and so this text thing's a big deal. Um, you so this text thing's a big deal. Um, you so this text thing's a big deal. Um, you know, if you translated something, know, if you translated something, know, if you translated something, that's a dangerous job. that's a dangerous job. that's a dangerous job. >> Someone needs to kind of make sure the >> Someone needs to kind of make sure the >> Someone needs to kind of make sure the translation's right, translation's right, translation's right, >> but that's a different job. It's more of >> but that's a different job. It's more of >> but that's a different job. It's more of a editor of translation, right? a editor of translation, right? a editor of translation, right? >> And that's an opportunity. Move >> And that's an opportunity. Move >> And that's an opportunity. Move upstream, be the be the one that's best upstream, be the be the one that's best upstream, be the be the one that's best at exercising that with this tool. But at exercising that with this tool. But at exercising that with this tool. But the old tool doesn't doesn't work. Like, the old tool doesn't doesn't work. Like, the old tool doesn't doesn't work. Like, it's not going to be real. If you were it's not going to be real. If you were it's not going to be real. If you were 21 and starting again with no knowledge 21 and starting again with no knowledge 21 and starting again with no knowledge or connections, what do you think you'd or connections, what do you think you'd or connections, what do you think you'd be focused on? What would you do? be focused on? What would you do? be focused on? What would you do? >> Um, it would definitely be related to >> Um, it would definitely be related to >> Um, it would definitely be related to AI. I mean, it just would like I'd be AI. I mean, it just would like I'd be AI. I mean, it just would like I'd be rolling around in it more. I would rolling around in it more. I would rolling around in it more. I would definitely have already launched 10 claw definitely have already launched 10 claw definitely have already launched 10 claw bots versus now where I don't have that bots versus now where I don't have that bots versus now where I don't have that that need um to see what's possible. I'm that need um to see what's possible. I'm that need um to see what's possible. I'm I'm fascinated by the uh the agent idea I'm fascinated by the uh the agent idea I'm fascinated by the uh the agent idea for a personal assistant like a running for a personal assistant like a running for a personal assistant like a running buddy. I just find that fascinating. buddy. I just find that fascinating. buddy. I just find that fascinating. >> Um I another one that I kind of am >> Um I another one that I kind of am >> Um I another one that I kind of am fascinated by. I think someone will fascinated by. I think someone will fascinated by. I think someone will build a new CRM from scratch that will build a new CRM from scratch that will build a new CRM from scratch that will be used by small companies that don't be used by small companies that don't be used by small companies that don't have a CRM because it's easier to start have a CRM because it's easier to start have a CRM because it's easier to start with zero in the database. And I think with zero in the database. And I think with zero in the database. And I think that will be super clever, that product that will be super clever, that product that will be super clever, that product that I don't think you can get there that I don't think you can get there that I don't think you can get there from Salesforce because you've got this from Salesforce because you've got this from Salesforce because you've got this huge database with all these fields and huge database with all these fields and huge database with all these fields and forms that no one wants to look at. And forms that no one wants to look at. And forms that no one wants to look at. And if you start with that as your if you start with that as your if you start with that as your construct, I think you'd build the wrong construct, I think you'd build the wrong construct, I think you'd build the wrong thing. Does that make sense? thing. Does that make sense? thing. Does that make sense? >> Because you're trying to backwards >> Because you're trying to backwards >> Because you're trying to backwards integrate something that's already a integrate something that's already a integrate something that's already a little janky. little janky. little janky. >> And I don't think the user wants to even >> And I don't think the user wants to even >> And I don't think the user wants to even see that stuff. see that stuff. see that stuff. >> Like >> Like >> Like >> that's interesting. And so it should >> that's interesting. And so it should >> that's interesting. And so it should whatever the storage mechanism is, I whatever the storage mechanism is, I whatever the storage mechanism is, I don't think it will be visible to the don't think it will be visible to the don't think it will be visible to the user in the way that it a database like user in the way that it a database like user in the way that it a database like type enterprise app historically did it. type enterprise app historically did it. type enterprise app historically did it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, so so anyway, those are things >> You know, so so anyway, those are things >> You know, so so anyway, those are things that pop into my brain when you say that pop into my brain when you say that pop into my brain when you say that. Those are things I'd be playing that. Those are things I'd be playing that. Those are things I'd be playing with. with. with. >> I know that you're a big reader. What >> I know that you're a big reader. What >> I know that you're a big reader. What have been the books over the last couple have been the books over the last couple have been the books over the last couple of years that you have not been able to of years that you have not been able to of years that you have not been able to stop telling people about? stop telling people about? stop telling people about? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, the second half of Range impacted me and the second half of Range impacted me and the second half of Range impacted me and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the book's known for being this >> And the book's known for being this >> And the book's known for being this antidote to Malcolm, although they're antidote to Malcolm, although they're antidote to Malcolm, although they're very close friends. In fact, Malcolm's very close friends. In fact, Malcolm's very close friends. In fact, Malcolm's quoted on the cover of Range, I think. quoted on the cover of Range, I think. quoted on the cover of Range, I think. Um um but the book people talk about Um um but the book people talk about Um um but the book people talk about this generalist versus specialist and this generalist versus specialist and this generalist versus specialist and this comparing of you know these two this comparing of you know these two this comparing of you know these two athletes but he gets into a very athletes but he gets into a very athletes but he gets into a very different subject in the second half of different subject in the second half of different subject in the second half of the book. He gets into this notion um the book. He gets into this notion um the book. He gets into this notion um which I had I'd always heard heard a which I had I'd always heard heard a which I had I'd always heard heard a phrase called far analogies, but he gets phrase called far analogies, but he gets phrase called far analogies, but he gets into this notion that people that switch into this notion that people that switch into this notion that people that switch industries or switch careers or switch industries or switch careers or switch industries or switch careers or switch academic um focuses tend to be the academic um focuses tend to be the academic um focuses tend to be the biggest innovators of all time. And they biggest innovators of all time. And they biggest innovators of all time. And they come into something with a different um come into something with a different um come into something with a different um mental model than the people that came mental model than the people that came mental model than the people that came up through the field. Like if they enter up through the field. Like if they enter up through the field. Like if they enter through the side door, through the side door, through the side door, >> you understand? And it relates to they >> you understand? And it relates to they >> you understand? And it relates to they see things differently. see things differently. see things differently. >> Generalist. Yeah. Yeah. And and they're >> Generalist. Yeah. Yeah. And and they're >> Generalist. Yeah. Yeah. And and they're they're able to bring patterns from or they're able to bring patterns from or they're able to bring patterns from or see patterns other people may not see. see patterns other people may not see. see patterns other people may not see. And I I just find that fascinating. I And I I just find that fascinating. I And I I just find that fascinating. I touch on it in a couple of the chapters. touch on it in a couple of the chapters. touch on it in a couple of the chapters. I in the learning chapter and the peer I in the learning chapter and the peer I in the learning chapter and the peer chapter, I say if you make it far chapter, I say if you make it far chapter, I say if you make it far enough, you want to stretch the peer to enough, you want to stretch the peer to enough, you want to stretch the peer to someone that's maybe in a different someone that's maybe in a different someone that's maybe in a different industry. You want to stretch the industry. You want to stretch the industry. You want to stretch the learning to other industries and it's learning to other industries and it's learning to other industries and it's where you find some of the biggest where you find some of the biggest where you find some of the biggest nuggets there. It's it's more noisy. nuggets there. It's it's more noisy. nuggets there. It's it's more noisy. You're waiting through You're waiting through You're waiting through >> like it's harder, >> like it's harder, >> like it's harder, >> less aligned, right? Yeah. Yeah. But the >> less aligned, right? Yeah. Yeah. But the >> less aligned, right? Yeah. Yeah. But the insights are power law step changes. insights are power law step changes. insights are power law step changes. >> It'd be like you like listening to >> It'd be like you like listening to >> It'd be like you like listening to someone talk about um great writing someone talk about um great writing someone talk about um great writing technique and get an idea for the technique and get an idea for the technique and get an idea for the podcast, you know? Well, one of the podcast, you know? Well, one of the podcast, you know? Well, one of the things that I did about four years ago things that I did about four years ago things that I did about four years ago when I first moved to America was I got when I first moved to America was I got when I first moved to America was I got obsessed with cinematography and obsessed with cinematography and obsessed with cinematography and cinematog recreating the house from Interstellar recreating the house from Interstellar on a on a on a 85 ft video wall, the biggest video wall 85 ft video wall, the biggest video wall 85 ft video wall, the biggest video wall in Texas using the same technology that in Texas using the same technology that in Texas using the same technology that Star Wars uses. Yeah. Star Wars uses. Yeah. Star Wars uses. Yeah. >> And we rendered the entire scene in >> And we rendered the entire scene in >> And we rendered the entire scene in Unreal Engine 5 and then did set Unreal Engine 5 and then did set Unreal Engine 5 and then did set dressing. So we had live elements, dirt dressing. So we had live elements, dirt dressing. So we had live elements, dirt on the floor and cactuses and we on the floor and cactuses and we on the floor and cactuses and we reversed a [ __ ] air stream in and I reversed a [ __ ] air stream in and I reversed a [ __ ] air stream in and I sat up at McConn and I sat him down 11th sat up at McConn and I sat him down 11th sat up at McConn and I sat him down 11th anniversary of Interstellar and we were anniversary of Interstellar and we were anniversary of Interstellar and we were sat in front of the the house from from sat in front of the the house from from sat in front of the the house from from the movie and that was because oh I I the movie and that was because oh I I the movie and that was because oh I I started learning about this and I started learning about this and I started learning about this and I started getting friends that were from started getting friends that were from started getting friends that were from the cinematography industry and I the cinematography industry and I the cinematography industry and I started asking them what would you do if started asking them what would you do if started asking them what would you do if you were trying to elevate a podcast and you were trying to elevate a podcast and you were trying to elevate a podcast and da and then we did some cool things and da and then we did some cool things and da and then we did some cool things and it's larg a passion project wing of what it's larg a passion project wing of what it's larg a passion project wing of what we do. But it's uh it's cool. It's we do. But it's uh it's cool. It's we do. But it's uh it's cool. It's different. In different. In different. In >> in his famous Stamford graduation >> in his famous Stamford graduation >> in his famous Stamford graduation speech, Jobs said if he had never taken speech, Jobs said if he had never taken speech, Jobs said if he had never taken the calligraphy class, he doesn't know the calligraphy class, he doesn't know the calligraphy class, he doesn't know if he builds the iPhone the right way, if he builds the iPhone the right way, if he builds the iPhone the right way, you know, in the Mac, you know, it may you know, in the Mac, you know, it may you know, in the Mac, you know, it may or may not. It may be it may just be or may not. It may be it may just be or may not. It may be it may just be kind of nostalgia speaking, but the kind of nostalgia speaking, but the kind of nostalgia speaking, but the there are things you can borrow from there are things you can borrow from there are things you can borrow from learning far away that can be very learning far away that can be very learning far away that can be very impactful. And it's hard to know at the impactful. And it's hard to know at the impactful. And it's hard to know at the time like when you're consuming it. time like when you're consuming it. time like when you're consuming it. That's why I call it a bit of a That's why I call it a bit of a That's why I call it a bit of a superpower or advanced level I think I superpower or advanced level I think I superpower or advanced level I think I call it. call it. call it. >> It's not easy. >> It's not easy. >> It's not easy. >> Well, because you're translating it's >> Well, because you're translating it's >> Well, because you're translating it's like an exchange rate between something like an exchange rate between something like an exchange rate between something else and this does that what is that else and this does that what is that else and this does that what is that just cool for them? Should I really take just cool for them? Should I really take just cool for them? Should I really take what that musician's doing or is this what that musician's doing or is this what that musician's doing or is this relevant to me? So I guess taste, relevant to me? So I guess taste, relevant to me? So I guess taste, discernment, and when I think about discernment, and when I think about discernment, and when I think about areas that uh AI can't replicate, uh areas that uh AI can't replicate, uh areas that uh AI can't replicate, uh community, networking ability, taste, community, networking ability, taste, community, networking ability, taste, discernment. discernment. discernment. >> Yes, I agree. >> Yes, I agree. >> Yes, I agree. >> Those are the I'm sure there's tons >> Those are the I'm sure there's tons >> Those are the I'm sure there's tons more, but those are the ones, at least more, but those are the ones, at least more, but those are the ones, at least for me, with what I do. It's not going for me, with what I do. It's not going for me, with what I do. It's not going to build a friendship with this other to build a friendship with this other to build a friendship with this other person that I that I want to hang out person that I that I want to hang out person that I that I want to hang out with. with. with. >> I agree with that. >> I agree with that. >> I agree with that. >> It can't choose is this the right >> It can't choose is this the right >> It can't choose is this the right >> guest? And you the Mr. Beast approach >> guest? And you the Mr. Beast approach >> guest? And you the Mr. Beast approach would be well there are just would be well there are just would be well there are just quantifiable metrics of how this person quantifiable metrics of how this person quantifiable metrics of how this person appears on a balance sheet. What's the appears on a balance sheet. What's the appears on a balance sheet. What's the likelihood of this person being a big likelihood of this person being a big likelihood of this person being a big play guest or whatever. Um but that also play guest or whatever. Um but that also play guest or whatever. Um but that also doesn't account that's a local maxima doesn't account that's a local maxima doesn't account that's a local maxima which is everybody's got the opportunity which is everybody's got the opportunity which is everybody's got the opportunity to operate for that to optimize for to operate for that to optimize for to operate for that to optimize for that. Whereas that. Whereas that. Whereas >> if you're trying to refine for the taste >> if you're trying to refine for the taste >> if you're trying to refine for the taste >> that's different. Heck yeah. Bill Gurley >> that's different. Heck yeah. Bill Gurley >> that's different. Heck yeah. Bill Gurley ladies and gentlemen Bill you're [ __ ] ladies and gentlemen Bill you're [ __ ] ladies and gentlemen Bill you're [ __ ] awesome. Thank you for having me. I awesome. Thank you for having me. I awesome. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. really appreciate it. really appreciate it. >> A lot of my friends said, "You're gonna >> A lot of my friends said, "You're gonna >> A lot of my friends said, "You're gonna love his energy." And sure enough, love his energy." And sure enough, love his energy." And sure enough, you're you're you're a legend. I'm glad you're you're you're a legend. I'm glad you're you're you're a legend. I'm glad that you're occupying some of those that you're occupying some of those that you're occupying some of those highrises down. I've always wondered who highrises down. I've always wondered who highrises down. I've always wondered who lived in them. So, it's uh it's good. lived in them. So, it's uh it's good. lived in them. So, it's uh it's good. Where should people go to check out Where should people go to check out Where should people go to check out everything you're doing? everything you're doing? everything you're doing? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, so, so I've historically spent most so, so I've historically spent most so, so I've historically spent most time, we were an investor in Twitter time, we were an investor in Twitter time, we were an investor in Twitter early on, so I've developed my ex early on, so I've developed my ex early on, so I've developed my ex profile the most, and that's where I profile the most, and that's where I profile the most, and that's where I post most stuff. So, it's BG LY. There's post most stuff. So, it's BG LY. There's post most stuff. So, it's BG LY. There's a there's an Instagram account that I'm a there's an Instagram account that I'm a there's an Instagram account that I'm for the first time in my life developing for the first time in my life developing for the first time in my life developing for the book. for the book. for the book. >> Congratulations girly. Yeah, it's a >> Congratulations girly. Yeah, it's a >> Congratulations girly. Yeah, it's a different world. Like I feel like such a different world. Like I feel like such a different world. Like I feel like such a neoight neoight neoight >> like in Twitter I get everything in like >> like in Twitter I get everything in like >> like in Twitter I get everything in like I understand it. I understand it. I understand it. >> Instagram's a different language. >> Instagram's a different language. >> Instagram's a different language. >> Yeah, it's a different language. I'm >> Yeah, it's a different language. I'm >> Yeah, it's a different language. I'm figuring it out. figuring it out. figuring it out. >> Heck yeah. Bill, I appreciate you. >> Heck yeah. Bill, I appreciate you. >> Heck yeah. Bill, I appreciate you. >> Thank you, sir. Bye. >> Thank you, sir. Bye. >> Thank you, sir. Bye. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. Congratulations for making it to the end Congratulations for making it to the end Congratulations for making it to the end of an entire episode. Uh, another one of an entire episode. Uh, another one of an entire episode. Uh, another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.