How To Handle High Conflict Conversations Without Losing Control | Ed Mylett

Key Takeaway

Master the art of communication by controlling the pace of conversation. Jefferson Fischer, a trial attorney and communication expert, teaches that the key to productive dialogue isn't winning arguments—it's maintaining composure and setting boundaries. The single most actionable insight: Let your breath be the first word you say. Before responding in any conversation, especially emotional ones, take a deliberate breath. This keeps you analytical rather than reactive, sets the pace, and prevents you from saying things you'll regret.

Episode Overview

Trial attorney Jefferson Fischer shares expert communication strategies from his book 'The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More.' Fischer challenges the conventional wisdom about 'winning' arguments, instead teaching how to maintain relationships, set boundaries, and communicate with authority through deliberate pacing, tonality, and word choice. Key topics include: - Why trying to win arguments damages relationships and credibility - How to control conversation pace through breathing and deliberate pauses - Techniques for addressing passive-aggressive behavior and disrespect - The power of downward vocal inflection and calm energy in leadership - Using specific phrasiology like 'I don't accept' vs. 'you can't' to establish boundaries

Full Transcript

Transcript of How To Handle High Conflict Conversations Without Losing Control | Ed Mylett from The Ed Mylett Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey everyone, welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Hit that like button and be sure to subscribe to the YouTube channel so you never miss my show, whether it's Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday. Here's our first guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners. But in this case, this man's work is so good.

And I mean this, I sought him out. I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene that is doing work that is not like everybody else's, that it's his own, and that I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a productivity standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint, an influence standpoint. And he's got a book out right now called The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. And I consider him, and I don't say this often, to be a communication expert. And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour.

You are going to learn so much and take so many notes today from Jefferson Fischer. Jefferson, welcome to the show finally, brother. And thank you so much for having me. I am truly honored to to be here. It's a it's a pinch me moment. It's great to meet you, man. Yeah, likewise. I uh I have to tell you, my two kids, my son's a professional golfer, my daughter's a junior in college, and I sort of had three things I wanted them to leave my house with when they were little.

I wanted them to leave with their faith because in there is sort of their morals and ethics and values. I wanted them to leave with a bunch of self-confidence which I think under that if you got confidence you'll work hard. But the third thing that surprises most people is I wanted them to leave me with worldclass ability to communicate. I believe it's a separator in our world today. And what you teach and the way you teach it is as good as I've ever seen it before, brother.

And so I kind of want to get into this. The book's awesome, by the way. Okay, I read it in about a day and a half. It's awesome. Uh my note version of it, by the way. But I want let's just start out kind of like with argument stuff. Okay, you're you're an attorney by trade. First off, are you still practicing? That's a and then inside that answer kind of one of the big rules of the book is never win an argument. But I'm like, isn't that sort of the job of an attorney?

So, help me navigate those two things at once. Yeah. Well, one is I am still practicing. I am slowly learning how to transition out of that. I have a wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a lot of my cases, but right now I'm almost more of a a leverage chip in settlements. It's kind of this weird thing where uh jurors uh know me and so judges and court staff know my content and so being involved is also advantageous in certain ways. But slowly learning to develop and um be in this space like we were talking about.

So, it's it's getting there. Second of all, what do attorneys do? How you're supposed to win every argument. You're an attorney. Oh, you must win a lot of arguments. It's an absolute lie. And I'll tell you why. You may get to choose your client. Do I sign this person up? Do I not sign this person up? But you don't get to choose your facts. You don't get to choose the law. You don't get to choose the evidence. And so, what you have to do is it's really more about giving the facts a voice.

You're being an advocate for your client's story, for their position, for their perspective of how something happened and so is the other side doing the same thing. I don't get to choose the facts, the evidence. Instead, what I have to do is advocate and then it is up to the judge to apply that law to the evidence for the jury to determine. So to say we win arguments, that's just not true. A lot of the times the law is what does it for us. You just follow what the law says.

You might be on the good side of it and the losing side of it, so to speak, but it's not a win-loss thing. win-loss thing. win-loss thing. What about with another human being? Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win? Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody? Or is that you literally mean that don't try to win an argument? an argument? an argument?

I literally mean that. If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge, uh, and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a a law that is applying to this, and they just I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials.

Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. Um, but the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's it's lying to you. Because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship.

You're going to lose their respect. They're going to close themselves off from you. You're going to be less approachable. You're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument. every argument. every argument. What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So, let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phrasiology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it.

So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestle's the wrong word, but re-establish pecking order or at least equality in a convers? You know what I mean when I say that that you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not.

They're in charge, you're not. They're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize. they realize. they realize. Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's if it's one-on-one much harder because because because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you.

You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over. Meaning, you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back where anything that somebody says, you can just say, "Okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask." This ability to kind of be in the in the pocket in your communication.

The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, uh, Ed, Ed's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop. Uh, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less.

You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet. You say that about leaders too.

It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader. Correct. leader. Correct. leader. Correct. Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and and drive traffic and go go.

The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever is happening instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on. Okay, we need to do this and and they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next?

What's happening next? Instead of blame, it's where are we moving forward? So, driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So, you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor. anchor. anchor. Well, they're so good. You buy the way you exhibit that. By the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen.

You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so, it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time.

And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, there fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I want to make sure everybody gets the book, too, cuz we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. What if you're with somebody who I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper.

They pick on you. they kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost um passive aggressive in the way they say things and you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples. There's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another and the way they communicate and I I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression.

Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseiology or a or a strategy for that? Let's separate into two different categories. So, one, let's say, is kind of this more just passive aggressive bucket. The other is let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful or rude. So in this first bucket, this passive aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they saw mirrored uh conversation and arguments throughout their life and they don't know how to express that kind of thing.

So when they slide in that negative comment that you know there's something to that a simple question of like should I read into that or is there more to that or I and this goes for Chris Foss a dear friend and he I love his his question is sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I I also love sounds like there's more to that. So, anytime you can just quickly ask, "Sounds like there's more to that or ask them," should I read into that?

That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side, if somebody is saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, "Did you mean did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? my feelings? my feelings? uh did you say that to offend me? It when you say did you mean it is twofold. One, it's giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean and it's going to allow them to fix it.

Like uh at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off, instead of it saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah. Yeah. the question. I ask the question, did you mean for that to sound short? short? short? Instantly, almost every time my, you know, it is like the, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Sorry. I'm picking up the kids or I, you know, I was checking out the grocery store. I getting gas." You know, you you get that that K or K.

And you're like, "Oh, okay. I guess I guess they hate me right now. All right. Like, I guess they're in a mood." And then you naturally get in a mood. And then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively. And now you're convinced. you've convinced yourself you're under attack. So, it's this um this feedback loop that's not helpful to you. So, when you begin with did you mean it's a great way to set somebody to one give them that grace of fixing it, but two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do.

Did you say that to to embarrass me? Did you say that to to offend me? It is uh or did you mean for that to sound rude? like that is a very quick way to address it out in the open and if they're going to double down on it or not. Will you do that in re by the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're I do this better in business than I do personal life, to be honest with you, in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid.

When it comes to business, I'm pretty good at this. with friends and family, I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But so let's say we have gone back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, "What did you hear me say?" How will you handle that if the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you said that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude?

Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships, but I'd say even work too when somebody tells you something. You've been in that situation where somebody is going, "That's not what you said. You said this." And they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation and and you're like, "I didn't even say it like that." And all of a sudden now you're going, "That's not what I said. I didn't say it like that." You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed.

And nine times out of ten it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this that's not what I said. Um you are going to ask the question what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard because that's what matters. anytime you had that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication instead of going, "No, no, no, no, that's not what I said." that's not what I said." And kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective.

Uh, by the way, it's very hard to to judge. It's like making your own movie but not having an audience and going, "No, no, no, that's not how the movie goes." It's like nobody else has seen it. Only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So, when you ask the question, "What did you hear?" and they explain it, that's when you can say, "That was not my intent." or I apologize for that impression. Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with I can see like I can see how you'd feel that way.

I can see how that come off. You know, whenever you say um you know, I I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why uh that would upset you. That I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turn to look the same way that you're looking and I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified. You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes.

It naturally takes down the aggression. This I have to win. You have to see it what I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, uh like view, perspective, see. Um that is going to help somebody go, "Oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood." And by that, they're going to be more receptive to the progress. This is so good, you guys. Just so you know when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff and it it may be in the top three most important things in life to be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity and a conversation and a a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships.

This is not stuff that's taught anywhere yet. It should be. And what do you do? Gosh, I I I'm thinking of a situation I have with a friend who and I I don't remember this being in the book, so this will be a tough one. They go they go silent on you. In other words, the conversation is going a particular way and I don't know, maybe it's me. I do start to win and maybe they can feel it, you know, like and they just get quiet and I'm like, "Are you still there?

Hello." Yeah. Is there something you would say to re-engage somebody who's given you the silent treatment or gone cold on you or every time a conversation gets to a certain point, they just disengage completely? Or is your suggestion don't let it get to that point by using some of these tactics and strategies? But is there a way when they disengage and go quiet that you can bring them back in? Yeah. Where here's where you go wrong is when somebody's given you that silent treatment. There's this temptation that we started to say ugly things.

Like in romantic relationships, you'll you'll start to kind of say hurtful things in hopes that they bite back cuz all you're wanting is just to feel like you're not alone. So, you're wanting that engagement. That happens sometimes in toxic relationships. Now, there are techniques that we can use to not get to that point, but let's say you're already there. Let's say you're already they're they're um they're distanced from you. There's nothing you're going to be able to say, nothing you can do physically to just grab that person and say, "Come back to the conversation." Highlights the importance of not letting it get to that point.

that point. that point. But what I would recommend is if somebody is giving that distance, you give them that distance. So maybe it's a day, maybe it's two days because what it's highlighting for you is that you're wanting the conversation just to hear yourself. You have not been in the conversation to hear the other person. And when they are taking the time, sometimes that is needed. Sometimes there's wisdom in that of taking the time to think and disengage and give it a break. And if you need to um then what I would say is you message that person, you leave a voicemail for that person.

if they don't respond to your call and say, "Hey, I feel like we're miles away." It's important to use distances. Uh, I like using distances in conversation. So, you feel a mile away from me right now, or I feel like we're 50 yards apart. Whenever you use distances, it's a great way of saying, "Hey, um, of saying you can feel that we're off instead of saying, "Hey, what's wrong with you?" Or, "Hey, you seem off or you um wh what's going on? What's wrong?" when you can use distances of um I feel like you're far away from me right now.

I at least I do that even in um my my life is a great way of not getting them defensive. But you call them say, "Hey, I feel like we're far away. I'd really like to to get closer. I want to find a way that we can talk again." Or, "Hey, just letting you know I'm here. Wanting to talk to you. I hope to see you hope to hear from you soon." any way that you just say,"I am not trying to pressure this at all because you need to give them that space to continue to think about it." Or you can also say, "Hey, I think it was smart of you to give this conversation some space.

Um, you're right. I needed that and we'll love to touch base with you soon." So, you're giving them credit for their choice. So, when you're saying, you know, almost like a, "Hey, good job. thank you for trying to get us back on track. They will take that and go, "Okay, yeah, that was my intentional choice to help us rather than you saying, hey, you know what? You're not talking to me. If you don't want to talk to me, that's fine." That kind of stuff is going to further pull them apart.

So, good, Jefferson. When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm um it's getting away from me. Let's say that. That could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend, you name it. Um, I feel like in my case, most of the time it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in rule one. Number six is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace and the way that you communicate even on the show today and even in your content.

You do you're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. you're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So, I watch that like tonality and pacing. Yeah. Let's talk about that in a conversation cuz with my when emotions run high often times for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my my uh intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running if that makes any sense.

So, what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean? even mean? even mean? Yeah, I love that you picked up on that. the anytime you are getting that fight or flight and I know all of your listeners highly educated they know fight or flight whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that it is that's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things and that's why the quicker you get maybe you've felt it where you you're either nervous same thing when you're really mad you might stammer and you might go like no no no that that's not and you're having trouble getting words out it's because you're just flooded your emotions are there your logical and analytical side is not.

And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross-examination and I'm just offering them up to the wolves is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So, whenever they ask you a question and you give a rapid fire answer back or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going, bad things happen. You say things you don't mean.

You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, "Oh, I that's oh man, that's not what I mean." And you you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond.

There's a difference difference difference if you were to ask me if if you said, "Hey, Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "Good. It was real good." I mean, it was it was it was really good. Thanks. Versus, "Hey, Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, said, said, "It was good. It was a good day." Like you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard.

Same thing with that's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're you're at work and all of a sudden you go, "What's wrong? What happened? What what's going on?" and you all you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in take a breath and then you're saying all right what happened give it to me like people are looking like we said for those emotional anchors so what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say that's how you set the pace of a conversation so where your first word would be put a breath in its place and what's that going to do is keep your analytical side engaged and to where you do not allow yourself emotionally to get emotionally flooded and the b second benefit is neither does the other person because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.

What about tonality? about tonality? about tonality? Um, specifically, Um, specifically, Um, specifically, uh, raising your voice for assertion or lowering it almost to get them to lean in to pay attention. Is that any part of your belief system and influence or persuasion in a conversation? Yeah. The the idea is you want to lower your voice. I'm not not talking really low. It's just you want to make sure it's always a downward inflection when you want to make statements that are foundational, statements that are concrete, statements that are this is is my value or my boundary.

Um when you have an upward inflection, it makes it sound like you're always asking a question. Like if I was going to ask you say pass the salt, I wouldn't say can you pass the salt as if like I doubt your ability to do it or as if you don't know what salt is. It's the downward inflection. Can you pass the salt? So, you want to make sure that you have a lower register instead of something that's really high. Uh, same thing for like music. You take for example um if you are always listening to fast-paced music, it it encourages aggravation.

It encourages anxiety to some extent. Trust me, I like all kinds of music. But my point is if you start to versus if you listen to something that's more easily listening, it will slow down your brain waves. It slows down your entire uh feeling of how you're reacting. So when you are able to use a voice that is lower in tone, it sounds a lot more in control. There's a difference if I were to say for example um I already told you I'm not going to do that versus I already told you I'm not going to do that.

Like one sounds like it's grasping for control and it's not in control. The other says I am fully in control of this moment. Bro, you made me just think of my dad. My dad uh was a yeller when I was a young man. So he used his voice the worst possible way, right? Aggravation, stress, anxiety, stress, anxiety, stress, anxiety, he could take a situation that was a two and make it a 22 in like a second. However, as my dad got older, one of the things I noticed about my father, when I had a major life problem, like a big big one, you know, like one of those once every eight or nine years, I'm in big trouble type things, and I would call my dad, he would slow down the conversation, his voice would get deeper, and there was this just his pacing and tonality calmed me down multiple notches.

So much so that to this day, my father's passed away that I have imaginary conversations with my dad when I'm under stress where I am listening and mirroring that specific tonality of his where he slowed it down and calmed it down and gave me a sense of peace about the conversation to the extent that it was so influential on me that I will have these conversations with him even though he's not here because it calms me down. That's how powerful what you're Yeah. It's It's how powerful what you're suggesting is that when your children come to you under stress or in trouble, I've I've worked so hard in those specific moments of just listening to them them them and slowing it down a little bit, getting a little deeper in my register.

Go ahead. You were going to say No, I was going to say you're you're you're spot on and I I love that. I think that is so I mean he was your that was the anchor in the conversation. I find that Same way with the kids. Like I we never for the parents that are listening, you you never you always want to be the person that your kids run to for help, you know, when when they make the mistakes. And if you always yell at them and uh raise your voice, they're not going to come to you.

But when you can be a safe space and say slowly, "Thank you for coming to me with this." You know, that's going to just encourage that dialogue. the slowing down is a there's a lot of wisdom in that. There is, brother. Well, since we're talking about kids, let's stay on one little topic. What if you're interacting with someone who's behaving like a kid? Meaning, Meaning, Meaning, you're just you're interacting with somebody who's emotionally immature. immature. immature. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And now you got to have a grown-up conversation with this person that you know is emotionally immature.

and every time the conversation gets a little bit more stressed, their maturity level drops even further. What are some of your thoughts in dealing with someone like because we've all got those people around us. We we may even love them. Their maturity level to have a productive conversation is not always uh matching what we would like it to be. What do we do with them? Right? Well, let's first set out that you have to choose whether or not you want to have that conversation with that person if that's the person to have the conversation with.

Um, you know, because there's there's all kinds of different types. In my view, you need to be very clear about I'm going to use the word boundaries, but not in a in a woowoo kind of way. I'm using it in a terms of gatekeeping your peace of mind. Meaning, you're going to use words that sense establish signal boundaries like what you accept, what you allow. Those are the two big ones. So if I were going to say I don't accept the way you're talking to me right now versus you can't speak to me that way like there is one says if I say you can't speak to me that way to somebody who's emotionally immature all they're going to do is go well yes I can like they're not going to see behind the words but if you instead of beginning with you you see how if I say you can't speak to me that way I'm just it's like they have a remote control and I push in my buttons and I'm saying you can't press that button But I gave them the remote.

Instead, it's you want to have this idea of giving them a manual saying, "Hey, look, if you turn to page 76, paragraph 2, you'll see I don't respond to that tone." Like, it's that's the kind of power that you'll be able to have when you use words like accept or allow. It's saying I I don't allow people to speak to me that way. Um, I don't I don't allow people to yell at me. I don't allow people to disrespect me. I there is um there is a sense of control that you're going to feel and a sense of confidence you're going to gain when you stop giving remote controls and start giving out manuals for how they are going to be able to speak with you that if you we're going to engage in this conversation this is what them's the brakes these are the rules this is this is how we're going to uh go through that instead of going ah I got to deal with this person no you don't got to deal with them they have to deal with you.

It's so good. I want to ask you about that. So, I do consider you such an expert at this. This is a hard one. What if you've already been with someone, so you're in a dynamic with them where you have accepted this way of being communicated to? So, it would be a little bit off-putting at that time to say something like, um, I'm not going to accept you communicating with me this way. Is it just as simple as changing a couple words and saying, "Listen, I know I have accepted this in the past, but I am no longer going to accept having you." Or is there something else you would say?

In other words, you've established a dynamic. It's been 5 years, 3 years, 10 years, years, years, and that's it. You're not going to do it anymore. So, that's a little bit harder than the first time, right? That's why I'm pushing it here because I know people listening are like, I would do that the first time, but I've been with this guy or I've been with this lady now for six years and I have allowed them to walk on me verbally this way for quite a while.

That's the toughy. And I'm wondering what you would do in that case. So what I would do is I would make it very clear right then and there that I would begin with something like I've made a choice and that choice starts today or I've made a decision and that decision starts today. Um it it is a this is my bright line of how I'm going to move forward. So even if it's as simple as simple as simple as I um you don't have to go well here's what I don't want people to do.

What I don't want to go is, hey, I know how, you know, we've been talking in the past and, you know, I know you've been talking to me that way, but I'm not going to allow that anymore this time. Like, that is only the people that are intelligent, the people that are um and know that they've been taking advantage of you will continue to poke down on you and they'll make fun of you for saying that kind of stuff. But that's what I don't want. That's more weaker position.

Instead, it is a I've made a choice and that choice is going to be instated for the rest of this relationship or the rest of this conversation. So, whenever you can say I've made a choice or I putting this into action, you're using action verbs that say I have made a decision and this decision is going to be how we move forward. Not a just a random, you know, you're not going to talk to me that way. But either way, even if you do, people are going to find ways that the people who enjoyed you not having boundaries are the ones that are going to be upset by them.

So, it's it doesn't mean your boundary is wrong. It just means that it's working. So, it's you're going to have people that are frustrated that you're changing the dynamic regardless. You uh let's take it one level past and then I want to ask you some stuff about in the book as well. All of this is in the book, you guys. By the way, it's also in his content, which is basically here's how you know content is good. When I started on social media, 99% of my videos were me in my car with a camera in my hand, not driving.

Here's some content. And then it went viral. It's exactly how he's gone. And that means it's the content standing on its own, not the curation of it, you know, or the music behind it. Okay, let's escalate further. You're with a narcissist now. you're with a full-blown narcissist. Now, these are, in my opinion, the most difficult people in the world to communicate with that and someone who's just patently dishonest all the time in their communication with you. But you're dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissists in the first place structurally?

Is there anything that you know if this person is a narcissist? this is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them. Anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist, you're playing a game. You You are on the board. And it's a game of either praise or provoke. Meaning that if you are not showering them with praise, Ed, they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise.

They always want that from you. It's that sense of control. Whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you, that's exactly what they're going to do. It's a game and it's a it's a rigged game. The reason why I say it's rigged because it looks beatable. Like we've been in those conversations with narcissists and been on the other side of the table and you go, if I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm going to get them to understand.

I'm going to get them to apologize. I'm going to get them to see the light and go, "Oh my gosh, yeah, you're so right. I can see how uh you were upset by that." They're not going to do that. They don't. Narcissists just they don't do empathy. They might know it hurts. They can't care about it. And so the first idea and mindset you need to have is that you're just not going to play the game. You do that by one using phrases that are very short and to the point that they can't do anything with.

So if you were just to say, "Got it. Noted. I hear you." Like it's something as simple as that. It just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They can't draw from it. the longer your answer. I I told this to all my clients. So, it goes really for any communication, but the the longer your answer, the more questions you're going to get every time, the more that you're going to have to say. Like, you've sent that text message to somebody and it was like a paragraph and you're like, "Oh, this is the best, most poetic, put together text I've ever sent." And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle and you're like, "They didn't even address anything that I said." Yeah, that was the point.

So you you you you you said too many things. You need to give just a little bit. Two, you need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation or what I also like to do and um this is this is a go deep moment with me and you here is that when I am cross-examining a narcissist typically some type of expert witness, somebody who feels like they just have the ego of just out of control that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion is you use their thoughts about their reputation.

So, if I'm questioning a witness and he and I know he's a narcissist, I I might say, "And you think the juryy's going to like that?" And it might just be me and him in the room. I say, "And you think the juryy's going to like that?" Well, well, uh, because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say, if if you think others are going to be okay with that, now they're thinking outside of it because they really don't care about you.

They care about the others. And so whenever you can get them to think about their reputation outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good about it in that moment. All right, welcome back to the show everybody. You know, today was a very important episode for me in terms of scheduling this today because I think it's such an important topic for a couple reasons. Number one, one of my great concerns in our culture right now is the way we talk with one another.

uh the way we have conversations. It just seems to me over the last 20, 30 years in our culture, we've lost the ability to have a conversation with somebody that we might not agree with in a productive way. And I'm sure you all agree with me as well. It's become very difficult in our times to dialogue with somebody that you might have a disagreement with or to have a difficult conversation with. The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life.

Even with my kids, one of the things I hope they leave our home with is the ability to communicate, the ability to have a conversation with somebody. And it is a skill and there are insights in how to do it better. And I just feel like it could change our world if we talk to one another better. And I think you'd agree with me too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be.

learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Weisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact. And I'm really excited to get into this topic. So, Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. be here. be here. It really is for me. You know, a lot of times have all these people on my show that have these huge followings or guests, you know, that, you know, have major notoriety.

And I've always found that often times it's the topics on my show that really move people. And more and more people are concerned about the way we talk with one another. And so I want to get right into it. How do you talk with somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself? So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them.

I want to go to the hard stuff first. Like I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican. Something like that. You know, these hard conversations. What are some of the keys in being better at doing it so it's actually a productive experience? experience? experience? There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. with truth. with truth.

And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very the conversation will remain difficult. There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions there's emotions there's emotions and we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get discombobbleled and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can slowly we can say, okay, what's driving my opinion? and we sort of can open our hand and go, "This is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking.

This is what my standards are." There's four archetypal questions in the book. This is what I'm worried about. This is my concern. Here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say, "Okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance with that. Let's see what we can learn from each other." That's a very different conversation with fists than fist coming at each other. Yeah. And you also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself um is to fall in love with asking questions, right?

right? right? When you're talking with somebody, whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement or you got to talk about something different and like I've used I've used politics as an example because it's the big one. Right. Right. Like they're good, we're bad, I'm right, you're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions. Right. Right. and and the the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's driving my opinion, what's driving my judgment and why am I so hooked on the thing, right?

We can also the questions help us like each question can help us open someone else's hand else's hand else's hand because we can ask well what what do you really want? What do you what do you desire here? What do you want out of this? What are your standards for measuring this this opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and but we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas.

And then we get into school and we're rewarded for raising our hand. And then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room. Right. Right. Right. Right. And that's a counter to the the opposite effect is asking questions. Well, this notion of raising your hand was my next thing. So, you're reading my mind. mind. mind. And I think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening. And that's why questions matter so much.

And you're precisely right. In school, the teacher still talking and asking the question. We're taught. We're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. talking. talking. And what that does to me, I want you to speak to this. To me, what that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm gonna say back to you in my answer or my judgment or my assessment about you. Most people are already raising their hand, you know, metaphorically when most other people are still talking and they wonder, why am I not connecting with this person?

Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I want to say something. And rather finishing and letting them finish their statement. Yeah. And so our our brain is spinning our answer. uh and so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person right and and part of that that actually the main reason of that is we are we get addicted to our position our ego and our identity gets addicted to I believe this and if I believe this is true then that is that defines who I am and that that is often why we enter with fists or why we enter uh you know in defensively you know and and can't just say, "Okay, I do have an opinion.

I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to see if I can explore really what what's driving this other person's thinking." thinking." thinking." Hey, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm honored to have this man here for the second time. The first time he was on the show, I sought him out saying, "Please come on the show because his book had made such an impact on me." And now he's got a new book out, by the way, before I introduce him called Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection.

And it's a topic, as you all know, that I am fascinated by because I talk a lot about it on the show, except he's way more qualified than me. And the reason he's way more qualified than me is this guy is a Pulitzer Prizewinning writer. He's a New York Times bestselling author and he's a renowned expert on habits and also now after reading his work, he's an expert on communication. So Charles Dwig, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Ed, for having me on. This is such a treat for me.

Yeah, I love you, brother. You're going to listen to a big brain today, everybody, on a topic that you need to know more about. I got to tell you why I love your book so much. When we were just talking about kids off camera. camera. camera. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a few things I want my kids to have left my house with. One, I want them to have some faith, which is their morals and ethics. I want him to have some work ethic, self-confidence, and if I could give them a fourth thing, it would be the ability to be an outstanding communicator.

And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life. I'm sure you agree. I think that's absolutely right. And I think the things that you mentioned before that are really important because if you you could be a great communicator and if you don't have values, if you don't have discipline, then it's not necessarily going to get you any place. But the difference between people who have those first three things and then don't know how to communicate is that they stall out at some point, right?

They like they have trouble in their marriage. They have trouble like communicating with their their spouse or their partner. They oftentimes stall out at work because the thing that made them successful at work. Once you become a manager, it's not just doing that. It's about helping other people learn how to do that. And also there's a huge amount of self-discovery that comes from conversation, right? Like when I talk to you and you talk to me, we learn things about ourselves through what we say. And it takes someone talented, a super communicator to draw that out, to know how to how to make the space for that.

That's interesting. You learn about yourself, too. I didn't think about it that way. But you're right. You know, I I almost feel like after I was reading your book, and by the way, everybody, it is outstanding. This man does not write average books. He just doesn't. And he sells a lot of them for a reason. And I almost feel like after reading it, I think I thought this before, but almost your ability to communicate will be the cap on your life to some extent. It's the cap on your rel the intimacy level in your relationship for example to some extent is limited or enhanced by your ability to communicate non-verbal cues verbal cues your ability to lead and move people in business your family environment friendships I mean the cap on your your success level in those areas is almost directly correlated to communication communication communication I absolutely so my um my father passed away about six years ago and I went to his funeral and there were so many more people there were people that like I hardly remembered like people it so surprised and I was talking to them and I was like, you know, like thank you for coming and they would all say the same thing.

They'd say like, I loved talking to your dad, right? That's why they showed up is because they had they had this relation they had a connection with him. Do you think it's because of I think one thing human beings have, Charles, is you're always making people feel something. something. something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yet, I think most people are oblivious to that fact. They're feeling something from you in a moment. your interest level, your energy, your frequency, your trustworthiness, your ability to elevate them. So do you think with your dad for example, it wasn't just, you know, talking with him, but it was how he made other people feel.

That's exactly what it was. So So sometimes when people ask me like who how do you define a super communicator? I the the easiest answer is to say, okay, think of the person you would call if you were having a bad day, right? Like you're having a terrible day. There's someone you call you know they're going to make you feel better. Like like who would that person be for you? you? you? It would have been my dad. Okay. For sure. Before he passed away, that was that came right to me.

Call my dad. And my guess is that if I met your dad, what I would see is he's not the funniest person in your life. He's not the most charismatic person in your life. But what he did is he proved to you that he was listening to that he heard what you said and then he he reciprocated he reciprocated he reciprocated your vulnerability or your joy or your sadness. He shared it with you. And as a result, you walked away feeling like what I'm experiencing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, this is like this is profound and this is real.

is real. is real. You're right. You're right. You're right. And it's been validated. And you don't need your dad to validate it. Like it's still real to you. But to have someone else feel like have them feel like they genuinely want to understand you. That's right. That's right. That's right. That feels wonderful. In fact, it's hardwired into our brain to feel wonderful. wonderful. wonderful. Yeah. I just did this and I did a podcast on it. So I'll ask you this. How much of communication do you think is actually the ability to listen correctly?

A huge amount. So, and and and let me say that that there's this thing about listening, which is when I'm talking, whatever you're doing, I'm probably not going to pay attention to it because I'm so it's so cognitively intense to try and speak that even though I'm going to make eye contact with you and and I'm going to kind of notice if you're frowning or you're smiling or whatever it is, I'm really not going to pick up on the signals you're sending me. So listening is not just hearing what the person is saying.

It's what you do after they finish talking. Because if you do this thing where you prove to me that you've been listening and and in the psychology literature, this is actually referred to as looping for understanding. Okay? Okay? Okay? That particularly if you have a conflict with someone, the best way to to sort of bring the tension down is ask a question, repeat back what you hear the person says in your own words. And then step number three, which is the one we usually forget, is ask them if you got it right.

it right. it right. And if I do that, so when you think about it, so I'm listening to you. I have to listen closely to you because I need to I'm thinking I got to repeat back what you're saying in my own words. I got to process it. But most importantly, you know that I've been listening based on what I say after you're done speaking. And that's really what active listening is. It's about not just passively receiving. receiving. receiving. It's about amplifying. Very good. That is really good.

It's I mean and the thing is it's so easy to do. Like once I learned this like I find myself doing it all the time without even realizing it. Like I I'll be like when I hear you saying this and and tell me if I'm getting this wrong and like it just feels so natural. Like it feels totally automatic. It's so good to have somebody say that back to you because that you do get the feeling with most people I think they do two things. One, they're really more concerned with what they're about to say back to you.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And two, I call them verbal nudges where they're interrupting you too often or uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. which you think is a form of agreement, but I think to some extent sometimes you're almost saying, "I got it. Okay, can I say something now?" something now?" something now?" And you're almost nudging them to finish rather than letting them finish. That's I think that's exactly true. And I think that part of this is understanding what the goal of a conversation is. conversation is. conversation is. Okay.

Okay. Okay. So, it's easy to go into a conversation and think the goal is to to convince this person I'm right or maybe even the goal is just to come to agreement on something. That's wrong. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand what the other person is trying to tell you. So that means that if I'm listening to you and you say something that I think is crazy, you wouldn't say this, but but lizard people run the world or whatever it is, it if I I'm not going to agree with you and I'm probably not going to convince you that you're wrong, but as long as I understand how you see the world, as long as I ask you a question that's known as a deep question where I say like, why is this important?

like what is it about this that seems really meaningful and important to you? You're going to tell me something about who you are. I'm going to repeat back what you've told me about like I care about lizard people because I I really think the elites of this world, right, are are like are like having this pernacious effect on on the working class. I'm going to repeat that back to you. I'm going to ask you if I got it right. I'm not going to agree with you and you're not going to agree with me, but simply understanding each other means we have succeeded.

And it feels good, right? good, right? good, right? It does. I'm just thinking of like political discourse, you know, like just really understand where they're coming from. I'm not going to win this. I have to tell you, your work's so good because it's actually the part of conversations. I think it's why I have a podcast. I really enjoy not only understanding what somebody's saying, but also like why they're saying it. What's this come from? I'm in an Uber. I basically interview almost every Uber driver I ever have, right?

But I I love that by the end of a good 20 or 30 minute ride, minute ride, minute ride, I find out where these belief systems stem from. Yeah. Too. I had a I was in one recently where this guy was way right, like way way right. And uh no matter what you believe politically, but I mean I was like whoa. And I'm like trying to understand and try to understand and I've also had this conversation with someone who's way left. But it ended up that at the end I found out that he had come from a communist country.

He had actually had family that were murdered by communists. And it whether I agreed with him or not, that's not the point of this show, but I actually had a much deeper understanding of the basis from which he's formed these opinions and I really felt connected with this person. Absolutely. So, you're right. Okay. So, let me ask you a question if you don't mind. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, when you're in that Uber, when you're having that, what's the second or third question you ask? Cuz because you could be like, "Hey, you know, where are you from?" Oh, I'm from Europe.

Like, what are you asking next to to get you from the shallow to the deep? Uh, that's a really good question. I usually ask them I I open them up a little bit. I say, "Give me your craziest story." craziest story." craziest story." Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. So, I actually ask them to give me one of their crazy ride stories. I'm actually fascinated by that. So, it kind of opens them up and they get loose. I didn't do it tactically, but I found that like, "Wow, you're kidding me.

That do that." And and then typically for me, just cuz I'm most intrigued by it, I love to know about people's families. And I actually also think people love to talk about their families typically, too. So, usually I'll ask them, "Are you married? Do you have children?" And I know that sounds like basic stuff, but I find for me that that's an entree into learning an awful lot about these folks. What I love about that is that what and I think you got this by intuition is is that so these deep questions, if we ask people deep questions, deep questions are things that ask us about our values, our beliefs, or our experiences.

Okay? experiences. Okay? experiences. Okay? So what's the craziest ride you've ever given someone is asking this guy about his experiences. Very good. Right. Tell me about your kids. Like what are your kids like? is at some point he could just be like, "I have two kids." But at some point you're probably going to say like, "Oh, you know, do they like school? What are they like? Where do they go to school? Are you are you worried about their future?" You're going to ask something that's going to get him to reveal to you who he really is.

is. is. You're right. And by the way, I always look at people like I I I this is an overall belief system. This person's a gift. I want to open them up. It's really how I look at them. And in this guy's case, I just got to tell you in this guy's case, really quick, just an interjection. This dude was amazing. It turns out that the reason he's driving Uber is he has a daughter at Harvard and a son at Stanford, right? And he's putting them through school.

And if you knew where this man came from, it was remarkable. And the pride he had in his children and his wife and that they had raised them and they were there. And it became this like really beautiful conversation where not only did I admire, I was like, "Whoa, this is an incredible the life you've built, the sacrifice you're making." And he had a full-time day job drove and it became kind of this conversation. We talked about our children. And by the time I was done, I actually really had a connection with this man that I probably won't I'm talking about him on my podcast now.

Right. Right. Right. Right. So, let me ask you this. Okay. Okay. Okay. The details of the work, guys, we're going to get into now. There are really three conversation types. Okay. I didn't know there were. I was kind of oblivious to this, but I think just this alone would enlighten people so they know which conversation they're in. They can identify it. So, share some of that. This is a big discovery from the last decade and we're kind of living through this golden age of understanding communication in for the first time in a new way.

new way. new way. And what what the first thing that researchers have found is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing. We're talking about my book or we're talking about your kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But actually every conversation is made up every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations that eb and flow. And most of those different kinds of conversations fall into one of three buckets. There's a practical conversation where we're talking about plans or making decisions together or we're fixing problems.

Politics is often this. There's an emotional conversation where if I tell you how I'm feeling about something, about something, about something, I do not want you to fix it for me. I want you to acknowledge that you've heard it and I want you to tell me to to sort of be vulnerable with me. And then there's a social conversation. And a social conversation is about how we relate to each other in society, how we think other people see us, how our identities, right? identities, right? identities, right?

How our identities shape how we see the world in different and interesting ways. And the key is there's this thing known as the matching principle, which is if I'm having an emotional conversation and you respond with a practical conversation, even though both of what we're saying is legit, we're not going to hear each other. That is outstanding. This happens at home. Like I with my spouse all the time. I come home, I've had a tough day at work, I'm complaining about my boss. My wife says she solves the problem.

She says, "Why don't you go and like take him out to lunch and get to know each other better?" And instead of being like, "That's really good advice." I'm like, "You don't understand. You're not listening to me." Very good, Charles. So, so if she matches me and then invites me to match her, then we're having the same kind of conversation. Then we can hear each other. other. other. You just explained 25 years of problem. No, because I'm coming home to an emotional conversation and I'm I'm not in one sometimes.

What about what advice would you give to somebody who I c we were talking about socially? I just moved and you were asking about the move and I said, you know, I kind of revert back to myself socially and uh uh I think I would categorize myself. would surprise most people listen to the show, but I'm very quiet and very shy and I find a lot of public speakers are by the way. A lot of entertainers privately are very I'd call an introvert. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you have any advice for an introvert as it comes to communication like this? So, I think one of the things I heard you just say when you were talking about that Uber driver is you got into the car. car. car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he had one identity which is rightwing. rightwing. rightwing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you asked him some deep questions that were easy to ask. like they didn't seem intimate seem intimate seem intimate and he started telling you about his other identities and once he once he complicated himself once he said like look I'm not just one thing I'm three and four and five things all of a sudden it's easy to feel close to that person because some of those things he is you are too are too are too and so I think when it comes to introverts or when you move to a new place like one of the things that I like to do is you meet someone at a party or a barbecue or whatever it is and like I often ask them you know what do you do for a thing.

And then I'll often say, you know, they say, I'm a lawyer. And I say, you know, do you love practicing the law? Like, did you just did did what made you decide to become a lawyer? Like, when was the moment you decided to become a lawyer? What inevitably they say is something that tells me about their other identities, which is, I became a lawyer because I saw my dad get arrested and I wanted to fight for the for the underdog. Or, I became a lawyer because we were poor and I wanted to always have enough money.

Or, I became a lawyer because I love intellectual stimulation. M like think of those those three answers just told me so much about those different people. different people. different people. And at that point I can say to them, yeah, I don't I grew up poor, too. Like I understand what that's like. And now suddenly we feel safe with each other. I think I this isn't necessarily true for introverts, but for when we're in new social situations and we were talking about how hard it is to make friends when you don't have friends in a place, the thing that often stops us is just a little mild anxiety.

You're right. Oh, I at least smiled with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At least smiled with me. And And how are we going to start the conversation? How are we going to get out of the conversation? How like, okay, that's mine. Okay, Okay, Okay, that's mine to be and candidly like, so I I love that we're going there. My I'm okay opening a conversation. How are you? You know, where you, you know, for me it's how does this end? How does this end? I bet everybody driving or listening, right?

Like, no, that's something I would like to know more about. How does this end? I have the most awkward finishes of conversations of any dude you've ever met in your life. I'm like, "Okay, well, hey." And I usually end up the conversation with some sort of BS or something. You're like, "I'm going to use the restroom." I got to get away from you. I have to go refresh my glass. It's still half half full. So, okay. So, so actually, um, Daniel Gilbert at Harvard actually did an entire study trying to figure out how people end conversations.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And do does the other person want to end at the same time you do? And what he found was two things. Number one, he found that you think I want you to end the conversation cuz I'm I'm getting bored and actually I am enjoying this conversation. We do a difficult job of gauging the other person's interest in the conversation. the conversation. the conversation. But then sometimes we want to end the conversation, right? And so this is this is what super communicators do. They forecast it without committing to it immediately.

So they say something like, "Oh man, this is so interesting. I totally got to go like freshen up my drink, but before I do, like let me ask you like X because often times the the end of the conversation feels hard because it feels awkward. Yes. Yes. Yes. But if you've already set the table and you're like you're like I got to step away, but this is so fascinating. Let me ask you one more thing. Then when they're done answering the question, you're like, "Oh man, thank you so much." And you just turn away.

That's not awkward. I love that. That's that's prefring the conclusion. conclusion. conclusion. That's exactly right. Very good. Very good. Very good. That's exactly right. A lot of what you're saying, I'm listening, is it has to do with the questions you're asking. I think a lot of people look at conversations or communication like what am I telling somebody? What am I saying? And I'm sure there's an element of that that we'll get to in a minute, too. But so far, a lot of the things you've been suggesting involve questions you're asking somebody.

And I have to say this to you, I'm amazed how how many people I talk to in social environments and business environments that don't ask that never questions. I know. I know. And and I can't figure out I think that for some of them they're just not practiced at it. And it is like that's the thing about super commmunication. Anyone can be a super communicator. It's literally just a set of skills. Like you just have to practice the skills and make them into habits. Nobody's born knowing how to do this.

this. this. But I have the same it drives me crazy. I ask question after question and then they they answer and then they stop talking and they're waiting for my next question. I'm like like does there any So here's the thing. Here's the thing that you're exactly right. 50% if not more of a good conversation is asking good questions. good questions. good questions. But then something happens. There's a difference between a conversation and an interrogation, right? Or an interview. And this gets into what's known as emotional reciprocity.

And emotional reciprocity is basically one of the strongest impulses that all humans have. If somebody engages in emotional reciprocity, we can't help but feel a little bit closer and a little bit more trusting of them. M so emotional reciprocity says if you say something vulnerable something vulnerable something vulnerable yes yes yes and then I recognize I acknowledge that vulnerability but I also show that I can be vulnerable be vulnerable be vulnerable then we're going to feel like we can trust each other and so and that's about speaking so that doesn't mean if you say my dad passed away I should be like oh I understand completely because my aunt passed away 12 years ago like that's stealing the spotlight from you right you right you right okay okay okay but if you say my dad passed away and I say, "Oh man, I like I know how hard that can be." Like, "Tell me about your dad.

What was he like?" Oh gosh, that was good. Right. And then like and then and what I'm signaling to you is a I'm interested in you. I want to hear from you. I want to understand you. But b you learned something about me. And if you're interested, you can you can say like like tell me tell me how you know about this. Like what happened? What about being being the server first, serving the vulnerability first? vulnerability first? vulnerability first? Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a guy named Nick Epley at the University of Chicago who's in the book and like and like and like Nick is so good at this.

Every conversation I've ever had with him. He says something in the conversation near the start of the conversation that feels so intimate. so intimate. so intimate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as a result, I'm just like, I love this guy. Like I just want to talk to him. And again, when I look at the transcripts, because I'm oftentimes talking to him for reporting and when I read the transcript, it doesn't seem too intimate. It doesn't seem overly intimate, but he says things like, you know, hey, Nick, how are you doing?

Like instead of saying, oh, fine. Says something like, yo, it's great. I like went to my son's soccer game this weekend. It was and like we adopted these kids from Ethiopia and like just watching them now as these like strong young men. young men. young men. Like it it was it was a great weekend, brother. brother. brother. Right. And he's offered that up. And at that point, I'm like, man, I'll tell you all about myself. Let me tell you about me. I think I also trust you more when you do that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think when someone's so surface all the time, and by the way, this applies for a lot of you that are in sales, too. Yes. Yes. Yes. Being willing to be a little bit vulnerable. Not always the expert, but a little bit vulnerable, a little bit transparent, a little bit revealing. I believe it's one I think it's just a better way to live. But it does bond and connect you. It makes you human. Often times when you're in sales, people look at you like you're almost their adversary, like I can't trust this guy or this lady.

But when you begin to show some vulnerability and some authenticity, I think that's when you down start to break down the barriers. And I found that in my own life. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Over and over. Trust is huge, right? I mean, so so we have communication is humans superpower. Like it's the reason as a species we have been so successful is that we can talk to each other and we can build we can share knowledge. We can build families and communities. All of that is based on communication.

And communication over the millennia has been hardwired into our brain. And so as a result when when somebody communicates well with me, I trust them because I literally have two million years of evolution in my head that says trust the guy who it seems like can wants to understand you and that is sharing with you. I agree. This is so good. This is probably going to go a little longer than normal guys. I really love this. Right. Um, I just think I hope those of you that are listening or watching understand the importance in your life, as I said earlier, of getting good at this because it's the cap on your bliss.

It's the cap on your laughter. It's the cap on your intimacy. It's the cap on your influence and persuasion. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. What What about difficult conversations? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are those different in nature? And are they I mean having to you know say listen your job performance isn't very good or I'm frustrated with you or you know something that's you know you're going into it knowing gosh I wish I didn't have to have this conversation but I do. Yeah. Or sometimes they catch you off guard right where like I'm talking about one thing and all of a sudden I realize you're furious at me like I didn't pick up on that until just now.

And so the answer is they abide by the same rules, but the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously because we were just talking about trust, right? I can establish trust by by sharing something about myself, but if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, conflict, conflict, trust is already out the window, right? Like you're you are your fight or flight is going off in your head like crazy. You can't trust someone easily just because like they ask you a question. So So and this has been a focus of a lot of study.

How do we make conversations in conflict better? And there's basically two things. The first one is I mentioned this looping for understanding, right? Asking a question, repeating back what you heard, and then and then asking if you got it right. That's enormously powerful in conflict. Okay? Okay? Okay? Because the first thing the first suspicion I have if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other is you're waiting your turn to speak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not hearing what I'm saying, right? you're just waiting there and like I'm going to tell you my piece and then you're going to just bulldoze over me and I'm going to bulldo back.

So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove I really want to understand what you're saying. Help me understand. understand. understand. I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. the table. the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict and this happens a lot in marriages. This actually comes from marriage therapy and studies of marriage therapy is that it is natural when we feel threatened to want to control things. And the easiest thing to control is the other person.

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So you tell me your thing and I'm like, "No, no, no. You don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence." You say something and you're like, "I I'm I'm not even going to listen to this." I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage, that is the thing that destroys a marriage. The alternative is I have a need for control, you have a need for control, we feel threatened.

Can we find things to control together? control together? control together? So, for instance, can we control the timing of this fight? Instead of having it at 2 in the morning, can we wait till it's 10:00 a.m. and we're both a little bit more rested? Can we control ourselves? Can I let you know, I'm going to take a second before I speak and I'm going to think about what you just said. Can I show you that I'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself?

yourself? yourself? And the third thing is we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself. So, one of the most toxic patterns in marriages is this thing called kitchen sinking where we start arguing about like where we're going to go for New Year's and then like five minutes later it's like and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money and like why are you such a jerk all the time? Right. So, a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything. Yeah. The healthy way to do that is to say, "We need to have a fight." Like we we have a disagreement on something.

Let's control the boundaries of it. We're talking about New Year's Eve. If my mother comes up and your money comes up, like we're just going to set it aside. That's another conversation, another day. another day. another day. Very good. Very good. Very good. But then when we're controlling these three things, we're controlling we're controlling ourselves, we're controlling um the convers, and we're controlling the boundaries of the fight or the the conflict. We're controlling those as partners, partners, partners, right? We're on the same side of the table.

We might not agree on the topic we're discussing, right? But you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other. other. other. That's outstanding. When you're talking about relationships and family where my first off, I've made those mistakes. Me, too. Me, too. Me, too. I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker now that you term it that way. Yeah. And so, I think I've gotten better at it. I also think the longer with you you're with somebody, you have more stuff in the sink and so it's even more important to uh avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation, right?

How long have you been married for? for? for? 26 years. 26 years. 26 years. Okay. So, I'm coming up on 20 and there and I'm sure this has happened to you, but tell me if if I'm getting this wrong, which is there there are these things literally I can say two words and I know the entire fight in my in my wife's head, right? It's like it's like and sometimes I don't even mean to say them. I'm just like I like I'm like I'm like well you know it's cuz like I earn more money than you and then I'm like oh nuts.

Like we go I just stepped in it like all to kitchen sink it. All I had to say was literally three words. three words. three words. You brought the whole thing. Yeah. And so the the immediate thing I do is I'm like I'm like I'm sorry. Whoops. Right. Exactly. I did not mean to do that. Like tell me what you're feeling because I want to I want to give you a chance. But like you know what? But I've gotten better at that, Charles, with my kids, too, of saying, "You know what?

I'm sorry. Let me take that right back." Whereas before, I'd almost double down or they didn't really feel it that bad. It'll it'll be brushed under and no, sometimes you just have to in the moment go, "Let me yank that one back." And not only are you connecting with them, but but think about the modeling you're doing, right? You're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like, I'm absolutely certain your kids are going to copy that without even realizing it comes from dad. dad. dad.

Yeah. You're making me think of young people when you say that. I want you to give you can we teach this to young people? I'll tell you why I ask. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have great conversations with my kids. Bella, don't take this the wrong way, sweetheart. When you're listening to this, but lately with my daughter, I love doing kind of dates with my daughter and I. And she's a she's a sophomore in college. And I watch her with other people. She's quite the conversationalist, but with me, and she's not disinterested, but when we're talking, there's a lot of Yep.

Yeah. Right. Uh-huh. And at one point we were taking a walk on the beach over Christmas and I said, "Bella, this is kind of a serve and volley type thing here. Like I serve and you return the serve and then I hit the ball back to you and you hit it back to me." To your point of ask me something, right? You know, so know, so know, so so it made me wonder, is there anything different? And maybe she's not even quite at that age I'm talking about, but if I have an eight, a nine, a 10-year-old, I I'm always blown away when I meet a child who is a tremendous communicator, makes eye contact, shakes her hand, Mr.

Myad, how are you? What do you do? Like when they ask, I'm like the automatically what I think, these are great parents. great parents. great parents. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think immediately these are tremendous parents. So is there anything with young people that can that these skills can be taught? Anything unique that you would say that goes with young people? Absolutely. So, I think that there's two things. Let's talk about the older kids first, like your daughter's age. So, I I had a friend whose daughter just went to college, and he had a conversation with her before he left, which I've now imitated and I love.

He sat down with her, and he was like, "Look, you're definitely going to call us when something important happens in your life." your life." your life." But if that's the only time you call, then by definition, you're not calling us that frequently. Like, we're going to lose contact with each other. each other. each other. So, what I want you to do is I want you to call me for the unimportant things. You had a you had a bad day, but it's not a big deal. You ate something good for lunch.

You're working on this paper and it's kind of interesting. You know, we don't have to talk for more than five or seven minutes, right? But I want you to call me and tell me about the unimportant stuff because the important stuff will take care of it of itself. itself. itself. And that and and so my son went off to boarding school. He's at boarding school right now um here in California. And it's his first year there. He's in 10th grade. And I told him this. He calls me every day.

Very. I actually talk more to this kid with him at boarding school than I did when he was at home. Yes. Yes. Yes. So for older kids, that's the thing is to is to say this is a priority. Like conversation is something none of us are born super communicators. We can all learn how to do it. This is a skill you should practice and it's because it's important. For the younger kids, it's a little bit harder, right? harder, right? harder, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. But I think for them, this is where the deep questions become so powerful.

So my younger one, same thing. How was school today? Good. Right. What'd you learn? Nothing. Right? Like so and and so some of the advice is like be like oh well you know did pirates show up today and you can do that a couple times but at some point if you ask them a question where where you're asking them to tell you who they are like like what like uh I know that you said that you like science more than you like math. I'm just wondering like why like what is it was it about science like I mean is science important to you?

like you you told me you wanted to hang out with your friend and I'm just wondering like wondering like wondering like what is it what do you like about that friend? Like what is special to him? What's great about that is that first of all it's clearly not judgmental, right? Whereas if I'm like what did you learn today? today? today? I'm kind of judging like Good point. Good point. Good point. You you better should have learned something today. something today. something today. Very good point. But second of all, I'm I'm matching him and I'm allowing him to set the stage.

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So you're expressive with your face. You use your hands. And I'm wondering if nonverbal cues are part of being a super communicator because I've had people say, "I'm really excited to be here." And I'm like, "You should tell your face. You should you should email your face and let them know that you're excited to be here." So, I think a lot of it is I'm reading things you're not saying when I talk to somebody as well. Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. And and to be a super communicator, you don't have to have non-verbal, right?

Because there's people who like on the phone are fantastic. If you're good at one thing, you're usually good at everything. But but similarly with you like you you clearly telegraph non-verbbally or non- linguistically you telegraph your interest. You telegraph what you're hearing and that's very very powerful and there's a kind of a a a science behind it and we've learned a lot of it from looking at laughter. So the interesting thing about laughter is studies show that about 80% of the time when all of us laugh it is not in response to something funny.

Okay? Okay? Okay? Right? So, we've laughed a couple of times in this in this interview, but I haven't said anything that funny, right? Like, you just laughed. I'm not that funny a guy. So, what happens when we laugh? What a laugh actually is is it's saying to the other person, I want to connect with you. I'm going to show you that I want to connect with you. And then when they laugh back, and 90% of the time when I laugh, the person I'm talking to will laugh back.

They're saying, I want to connect back. That's tremendous. That's tremendous. That's tremendous. So, that's a non-llinguistic communication. And what I love is actually NASA for a time this so glad. Yeah. So they were trying to figure out how to find emotionally intelligent astronauts. Yeah. You're going and and like the problem is everyone who applies to be an astronaut if you make it to the final stages you're you're like a golden boy or girl, right? Like thousand%. thousand%. thousand%. Yeah. You know how to answer every question.

You've practiced everything and they're like, "We can't figure out who's actually emotionally intelligent and who fakes it really really well." But when they're in space on a six-month mission, the difference is going to matter a lot. Huge. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. So this one psychologist, he started realizing if I pay attention to how people laugh, most importantly, do they match my laughter? So he would come into a room and he would accidentally spill papers accidentally. He actually did it on purpose. And then he would laugh aoriously and he would watch what that candidate would do.

Some candidates would be like, because you know you're supposed to laugh, right? And then other people would be like, That's let me help you with that. Like I the astronauts who matched him not just on laughter but he would tell a sad story and see if the other person empathized, if they if they engaged in reciprocity, if they asked him questions about it. So that's non-llinguistic, but it tells us whether that person wants to to connect. And that's ultimately I think when I'm making gestures, I'm inviting you to I'm inviting you in, right?

I'm saying like yes, yes, yes, like here here I am. Like I want you to see what I'm seeing. I hope what everybody's getting out of this is like these are skills that can be learned. There's an art and a science to this. You said uh I'm glad you asked. I was going to ask you about the NASA thing. You also said emotional intelligence. So I just feel like that's at the root of what we're talking about here. So how big of a component is just being sort of I think also let me say this.

So emotionally aware is another word that I would use as well. Emotionally aware is a part of having emotional intelligence. Do you agree with that? Absolutely. So I this phrase emotional intelligence is actually kind of a misnomer because it makes us think it's like IQ. We're either born with it or you're not. But it's not. Emotional intelligence is emotional awareness. If I say to myself and I train myself to say a priority is noticing when someone else is feeling something something something and matching that and and giving them the space for that.

That is emotional intelligence. That's the thing that's going to make make it make it feel like you understand them that you can empathize with them. And it's it's it's not hard, right? It's just about making it a priority. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's in the book a lot of examples of that. There's actually just great stories in the book. Give me one because I want them to get the book. So I don't want to do the whole book, but give me one story from the book that's sort of illustrative of just you thought was one of the more interesting stories in the book so they have an understanding because what's great about the way Charles writes this book is that there's like points and tactics and then I like the story to sort of reinforce it that and I for me facts tell stories sell.

I remember stories and so I like the way that you've weaved these into the work the work the work and that's why there's so many stories in there is because it's they're so much easier to remember. So one of my favorite stories is is early in the book. It's about Jim Lawler, the CIA agent. agent. agent. So good. So good. So good. So Jim Jim is this guy who I've talked to a number of times. He he's he's awesome. He um he became a CIA officer when he was in his 30s and he wanted this so bad.

He like he struggled for the like he just ran after this so hard. It was like he was desperate to be a CIA officer. Mhm. officer. Mhm. officer. Mhm. They accept him. They send him off to training and then they send him to Europe to recruit foreign assets and he finds out he's the worst recruiter on earth. Like literally, he would go to like parties and he's and like he couldn't make conversation. He would like try and buddy up with people and they're like, "You're a spy, aren't you?

You're trying to get me to be a spy." They're like, "I'm going to report you to the to the authorities. You're going to get deported." Right? Right? Right? So, he's like freaking out cuz he's like, "I'm terrible at this." And then someone in his in his office says, "Look, there's this woman coming into town. She's from the Middle East. She works for the foreign ministry. Why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there?" So he bumps into her at a restaurant the next day, right?

Bumps. Okay. And he introduces himself as an oil speculator, strikes up a conversation, takes her to lunch the next day. They start sightseeing together. He sort of develops a little bit of relationship. He goes and he says to his boss, "I think I'm recruiting this woman. I think she's going to be an asset for us." And then he and his boss is like, "That's fantastic. Good. I'm glad to hear it." He goes, he has dinner with this woman, Fatma, and he says, "I'm not an oil speculator.

I work for the CIA." Now, Fatma had been telling him she comes from a he never told me which nation, but it's pretty obvious which one it is, right? right? right? She comes from a nation that recently had a religious theocracy revolution. And so, the the fundamentalists have all taken over. And she hates it. She's like she's like, "They're making women wear hijabs. are telling us we can't go to college. I want to fight this, but I don't know how. And so Jim Lawler says to her the most practical thing possible.

He's like, "We want the same thing you do. Like, we want we want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women. Work for me for the CIA." CIA." CIA." And she grabs a table and starts shaking her head and she starts crying and she goes, "No, AB, no, I'm not going to do it." And just has a meltdown. She says, "They kill people in my country for doing this. I cannot believe that you have put me at risk simply by striking up a friendship cuz if they ever find out you're in the CIA, they're going to think I'm in the CIA." And she just she just bolts.

just bolts. just bolts. And Lawler's like, "Ah, I'm terrible at this. Like, I'm such a bad recruiter." So, he goes back to his boss and he tells him what happened. His boss is like, "Dude, I already told Washington DC you recruited her as a spy. like like you're going to get fired if you can't close the deal on this. This is this is your last chance. That's why we gave it to you. to you. to you. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So Jim spends all this time trying to figure out how do I what do I do?

And he he keeps on calling Fatima and eventually she picks up and he invites her to go to dinner. But it's a couple nights before she's going to fly back home and she says yes cuz he says he's take her to a expensive restaurant and he has a notebook full of ideas on how to convert her and he knows none of them are going to work. Like you cannot trick someone into taking a suicidal risk. Right. risk. Right. risk. Right. Right. It's just not gonna. So, he goes to dinner and she's in a she's really down because she's like, you know, I came to Europe.

I thought I was going to learn something about how to how to be more myself or how to change the world and I'm just going home and I'm the same person. And what he starts trying to do is cheer her up. He tells her little stories. He um reminisces about when they, you know, went sightseeing together and she just gets more and more glum. And finally dessert comes and they're kind of by themselves at the table and Jim thinks to himself like should I try to like recruit her again?

And he's like, "If I do that, she's literally going to stand up and walk away." away." away." So what he decides to do is he decides like this isn't going to work. I'm giving up. I'm just going to have a real conversation. I'm going to be honest. And he starts saying to her, "Look, I know how you feel because I feel exactly the same way. I like I wanted this job my entire life and it turns out I'm terrible at it. I am so disappointed in myself myself myself and I don't know how I'm going to go home and tell my dad that like I failed.

I got fired by the CIA. And he talks this way. Now what he's doing obviously without even realizing it is he's matching her. He's matching, He's matching, He's matching, right? She was she was glum and he was trying to cheer her up. That's not matching. matching. matching. Yep. Yep. Yep. He was matching her and she's she's listening to this and she starts crying and he's like I'm such a jerk. And in the CIA you have to report every conversation. So, he's going to have to write up a memo and he's like, "Those guys are going to fire me within seconds." Like, they're just going to laugh at.

And he reaches over and he pats her arm and he's like, "I'm so sorry. I did not mean to make you cry. I am sorry." am sorry." am sorry." And she says, "No, no, I think I can do this." Wow. this." Wow. this." Wow. And then and he's so inexperienced. He actually the first things out of his mouth is like, "No, no, no. You don't have to do that. Like, you don't have to like because he wasn't trying to manipulate her. He was just trying to He finally wasn't.

Yeah. He finally wasn't trying to manipulate her. And he's like, "No, no. I don't want to put you at risk. You don't have to do it." And she's like, she says, "No, no, what you want is important. I I think we can do this together." So, for the first time, she was able to hear him. She was able to hear all those things that he had said over weeks and weeks and weeks about helping the women of her country. She couldn't hear it until he matched her.

Next day, she goes to a safe house. She gets trained in covert communications and other stuff. She's the best source in the Middle East for the next 20 years. Unbelievable. And Jim Lawler becomes one of the top recruiters in the entire CIA. He teaches it today. It's one of the best stories ever. I I love that story. Let's go. I'm gonna pick it apart a little so people understand the dynamic in there. So when you say matching, was it that she was in an emotional conversation and he wasn't?

Is that what you mean by that? That's a huge part of it. Okay. He was also vulnerable, but he was also vulner not only was she in an emotional conversation, but he was listening to the type of emotion that she was transmitting. Right. Instead of saying like, "Oh, you shouldn't feel bad. I'm going to cheer you up." He was saying like, "Look, you feel bad. like let's just acknowledge that and that matching feels good because it feels like someone's hearing us. us. us. I think it's a huge thing.

I don't ever like saying gender specific stuff because I don't believe it. But I do think by and large those two elements women are better at naturally, meaning I think they're more naturally vulnerable in a conversation than a man can be. I just I and I don't even like saying this, but I just I think in general most people would agree with me. And then secondly, I think men try to fix things often more often so that when there is an emotional conversation you're in, we just want to fix it or solve the problem or be the savior or be valuable or be important rather than just be with somebody and acknowledge their emotions.

It's not always men and women, right? It's definitely not, but it's more prevalent, I think. And and I think what's happening there is we're following falling back on what's feels comfortable to us, right? It is for sure. So, so if you're saying something emotional and I get super practical and it pisses you off, it's not so much that like I actually think we should be practical. It's that I'm uncomfortable with emotion. There you go. And so I'm shying I'm going back to my safe place. safe place.

safe place. There you go. And and actually that safe place is emotional, right? Like like like the reason I'm trying to solve your problem is like it really bothers me that you're upset. I don't know how to deal with the fact that you're upset. I want to make you feel better. I feel like that's my job and I feel like I'm letting you down and myself down. Like that is emotional, right? You're right? You're right? You're right. I'm just disguising it as a practical conversation because that's my that's my safe space.

That's my pattern. That's how I hide. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a zillion% right. I I told you we're going to go a bit long. So, we're going to So, absolutely. absolutely. absolutely. Okay. Let me ask you this. This is a hard one. And and so I keep using the term non-verbal. I've used that. Let me let me couch it a little differently. Okay. Okay. Okay. Literally non-verbal. So, types of communication that are not done verbally, meaning verbally, meaning verbally, meaning mail, written, email, text, whatever. I have found for me, if I'm be transparent with people, with people, with people, I feel like I've I'm a pretty darn good verbal communicator.

I've also found my friends that are hyperverbal people in general, again, another generality, aren't so good in the written word. And for some reason when I write or text it comes across as harsh, curt um sometimes um sometimes um sometimes aloof. I my writing style does not make the impact in text or email that my verbal style does. And I I'm really not very good at that. So what about tip tips or keys on that? So what's going on there? So So it's interesting. If we were having this conversation um about a hundred years ago, a little bit under 100 years ago when phones first became popular, what we would be talking about and there were all these articles that said this, no one will ever be able to communicate on the telephone.

Well, because unless you can see someone, you're not going to figure out what's going on in their voice. You're you're not like like telephone communication is basically going to be for like sending over like grocery orders. Now, you and I are both Gen X, right? Like when we were kids, we were on the phone for like seven hours a night. 100%. I can have I have a friendship. I have friendships where I only talk to the person on the phone. So do I. And I I still remember the phone numbers of my friends when I was a kid.

I don't know anybody's phone number now, but I know Andy Quarin's phone number. number. number. Yes. You know. Right. Right. It's it's like in there. Right. It's true. And so what's interesting is if if we were to watch ourselves talking on the phone, what we would find is that we behave a little bit differently on the phone. When you're on the phone, people tend to overannunciate because they know that they can't see us, right? we tend to explain ourselves a little bit more and when we make a joke we laugh faster to let the other person know it's a joke.

We know that they don't have the visual signal and so we're trying to compensate by giving them more audio. Wow. Wow. Wow. So So So So good. So good. So good. Now the thing is we've been talking on the phones for over over a hundred years. We've been communicating face to face for millennia. The first email was sent in 1982, right? Most people didn't get an email account until the late 90s. We basically have 20 years of learning how to how to communicate digitally. Good point.

Good point. Good point. We have not though the rules about how that channel is different have not become intuitive yet. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So the solution is we have to think about it more when we're texting or emailing. emailing. emailing. Okay. Okay. Okay. And we have to say to ourselves, okay, and these are the tips. When I am online and I'm communicating that way, politeness matters a lot more than when I'm face to face. Okay? And study after study has shown this that if you say please and thank you in an email, there's like 70% higher response rate.

response rate. response rate. Okay? Okay? Okay? Because because I need to signal it, right? If I'm now if I'm texting you, I can be short. But if I send you an email and I treat it like a text, unless we're good friends, friends, friends, that's my problem. Like it's going to rub you Like it's going to rub you the wrong way. Right? So part of it is just saying, what are the rules for this particular channel? Because our instinct is to say the rules for one channel is the rules for every channel.

channel. channel. You're right. You're right. You're right. So we treat email and text and Slack and everything exactly the same way. But the truth is if you just take a second and you say like, "Oh, I don't have to say please necessarily in this text because it could be short." But every email I should like bend over backwards, be a little bit more polite. It works wonders. Brother, I'm such a bad emailer. I I'm so lazy with emails. I sometimes don't even put my name at the end of it.

You know what I mean? Never mind a thank you. I think I'm the worst emailer that's ever lived. And I've had a lot of people even that I've worked with, you know, even like in the podcast space, they're like, "Man, when I met you, you're so nice and kind, but I read your emails. You're scary." I'm like, "Really? I didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to get to the point so we could go do something else. I thought email was the faster way, but you're 100% right.

The rules of engagement, so to speak, are something that I've been oblivious to." That right there was huge for me. for me. for me. And sometimes you can establish new rules, right? Like if you say to your employees like, "Look, I just want you to know I'm going to send you Brusk emails cuz like I'm moving a million miles an hour. You should not read anything into that." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now we know the rules. Well, now I've pre-framed it. But I don't do that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I treat everybody like they should know better know better know better and they don't. And by the way, the worst thing I'll do is I'll get a nice long, you know, six paragraph email and I reply with like seven words and I wonder why they feel dismissed yet in a conversation. That's my daughter. Yep. Uh-huh. Right. That's my That's the extent of my emails to people. So, you're a thousand% right. My son texts me K. He doesn't even put okay. He just puts K.

I'm like, how much lazier can you get? I relate to that. But that that setting the ground rules, setting like figuring out the rules together, we can do that in a conversation, too. So, if we're talking about say race, right, which is a tough a tough topic. If I start that conversation by saying, I'd like to talk to you about this and I just want to acknowledge it's gonna it will likely be awkward. I will probably make mistakes and say things that I don't really not saying it the right way.

You're probably going to make mistakes. make mistakes. make mistakes. Like I think just as a as a ground rule, like let's just say it's okay to say things and forgive each other for not getting it right. So now we've established that now all of a sudden that conversation about race feels so much easier, right? We're both open. We're both vulnerable. We've both given ourselves some space to make a mistake and share our real thoughts. And the other thing is if you don't create that space, then you're really not saying what you really think either and it's not an authentic exchange.

exchange. exchange. That's I agree. when you ask for permission. Um, I'm going to ask you two more things. more things. more things. Sure. Sure. Sure. Okay. Okay. Okay. You said earlier something about repeating back to someone, hey, what I think I heard you say was help me understand this, right? I love that and totally agree. totally agree. totally agree. So, so sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I want you to reply with that. And then also, what about the conversation's been over to me when I think when I feel the most listened to, you had lunch together.

Okay. And you did that, but 7:30 that night, I get a message from you. You're gone. I'm gone. on and you say, "I just want to tell you something. I enjoyed our conversation so much and the way that you spoke about your wife or what you shared about blah blah blah. I just want to tell you it was so meaningful for me." To me, that's like what you suggested on steroids that actually after the conversation has ended, I come back later and say, "Not only have I listened to what you said, but I've been thinking about what you said and it made a difference to me." I just want to share that I do that and it I think that's a way of me saying I really value and appreciate what we discussed and it feels so good.

I've gotten an email like that from you and like it felt really good to get it and it was a great conversation but like to know that it was meaningful to you and it's much like laughing. It's you saying like I want to connect you wanted to say something and I think I jumped in front of it. Oh, I was just going to talk about this looping for understanding these three. So, so looping for understanding there's three steps to it. You you ask a question hopefully a deep question.

Repeat back in your own words what you heard someone say. Okay? Okay? Okay? And then step number three, ask if you got it right. Ask if you got it right. Because and it's that third step that we often forget to do and is the most powerful. powerful. powerful. Okay? Okay? Okay? Because what I'm saying when I ask you if I got it right and I I do this all the time. I'm like like let me tell you what I hear you saying and like like tell me if I'm getting this wrong is that we are saying to them not only do I want to understand you acknowledge that I might have missed something and you you might have phrased it in a way that doesn't actually capture what you want.

And so like when someone says that to me when they're like tell me if I'm getting this right and they repeat back what I just said. I actually find it valuable as the speaker because I'm like no no no you like I did a bad job of explaining like the the thing that like I really care about because you didn't pick up on it and you were listening. I need to get better at that and that feels good. feels good. feels good. That's outstanding. All right, last question.

First off, let me say this. This is awesome. Oh, thank you. and I uh both times we've had to interact together like this, it flies by for me and frankly that's because you're a super communicator and and as are you as well thank you and the quality of your work. Listen guys, there's a lot of books. books. books. This man doesn't write a ton of them because they're so good when he writes them. There's so much in here even in today's podcast like I hope you understand the value of getting good at these what I would call almost nuances that make all the difference in the world.

So this is a broad question. I'm just framing it differently. I want to finish with it. And thank you for that. It's true.