How To Find True Happiness (What 36 Years of Research Reveals) | Sonja Lyubomirsky

Key Takeaway

Today, create one 15-minute conversation that goes beyond small talk. Start with genuine curiosity: ask someone a meaningful question, share an honest answer of your own, and listen to understand rather than prepare a response. This sequence can make both people feel seen and loved—an experience Sonja Lyubomirsky argues sits at the heart of durable happiness. Do not wait to feel more lovable or for someone else to go first; change the next conversation you have.

Episode Overview

Happiness researcher Sonja Lyubomirsky explains why external achievements and possessions rarely create lasting contentment, and why connection, contribution, and personal growth matter more. Drawing on decades of research and her book with relationship scientist Harry Reis, she argues that feeling loved—not merely being loved—is central to happiness. The conversation explores five mindsets for creating deeper, more accepting relationships.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How To Find True Happiness (What 36 Years of Research Reveals) | Sonja Lyubomirsky from Feel Better, Live More. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

You've been studying happiness now for over 30 years. In your view, what are some of the common myths that exist about this topic? Well, I think the most common one is this idea that like I'm not happy now, but I'll be happy when like I'll be happy when I move to that city I always wanted to live in. I I'll have a when I have a baby, when I have that job that I always wanted, when I get a little bit more money, when I lose a little bit more weight.

And the problem with that myth is that there's a truth to it, right? Like you probably will be happier when you get that new job or have a baby or get a boyfriend. But human beings adapt very quickly to positive changes in their lives. It's called hyonic adaptation, right? So we we make more money and at first we're happy and then we're like, "Oh, well, it would be very nice to make even more." And so hydonic adaptation is a very powerful phenomenon. And so we adapt and then we want even more and even more.

The problem is that you're the same person in that new job or that new relationship and that if you tend to not be a very happy person, you bring that person with you. It's like in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I think Robert Persig writes, "The zen you feel at the top of the mountain is the zen you bring up the mountain with you." Same kind of idea, right? Love that. Yeah. Same same idea. So, so the idea is that changes in circumstances don't make you as happy as you think they will.

Although, if you if you're in a bad relationship, if you live in poverty, obviously changing those circumstances is going to help you. But for most people who are pretty comfortable, uh improving their life a little bit is not going to make them happier forever. And so, it's really, it's a cliche, but what makes us happy is really something on the inside of us, not something on the outside of us. What's the relationship then between money and happiness? You know, it's kind of nuanced. It's money does make people happier, but it depends on how what you spend it on, right?

So, if you the way I like to think of it is that there's sort of three buckets of things that make people happy. One is connection. Two is contribution to society. Three is personal growth. So if you spend your money on connecting with other people on, you know, I don't know, paying for dinner with your friends, taking your nephew to the circus, if you spend your money on contributing, on helping others, whether it's philanthropy or just, you know, being generous, or you spend your money on personal growth, learning a new skill, traveling, then those things will make you happier.

But if you spend your money on like things or possessions, a bigger house, a bigger car, uh that's not going to make you happier forever. It it kind of fits alongside that first myth, doesn't it? that we think and maybe we think this because of culture and society, but I think many of us are conditioned to believe that when we get that job, when we get that raise, when we get that car, when we get that phone, things are going to get better, right? And is that perhaps something that is normal to feel when you're a teenager and in your 20ies?

Does experience and age basically teach you, as it has for me, that these things really are myths? And as you get older, you realize actually, wait a minute, all of those external things. Sure, you may want them, but if you think they're going to bring you something like deep contentment and happiness, you may be a little bit disappointed. Yeah, it is true. As you get older, you learn, you become a little bit wiser. But one of my one of the theories is that it's it's evolutionarily adaptive for humans to always want more.

Right? Imagine if we are in our ancestral past, we would get to that mountain, we got, you know, we got food and then we sort of were satisfied with that and we just sort of sat there and didn't do anything else, right? We would never make progress as a as a species. So So always wanting more is actually beneficial for us as a human species, but for individuals, it's not it doesn't make us happy. Yeah, that makes me think about the role that culture plays, right?

So, let's say the United States of America known around the world as a go-get culture. You know, whatever you want, you can do. You just got to put your mind to it, work hard, right? And of course, America over the years has innovated in so many different disciplines so well. But of course, and maybe this is part of it as well, you know, there's many cultures like I, you know, my parents are from India and they came to the UK in the 1960s and the 1970s.

I never heard the term happiness growing up. It just wasn't a thing that we would talk about. But of course, America talks about happiness a lot. And I wonder is that because of this kind of evolutionary argument? So people aren't satisfied. They're constantly trying to innovate. get bigger buildings, get better airplanes, get the better technology, and therefore is what makes us content and happy fundamentally at odds with that kind of continual growth. Yeah. Or continual desire, I should say. Yeah. It's such a it's such a hard question because I don't think it's I I think that um Yeah.

I think the United States is a great example of like that, as you said, like that go-getter society where we always want more and more and more. And we've been very successful. And there's one theory actually that meritocracies that award people who are sort of doing better, working harder, are smarter actually are really bad for happiness because if you don't succeed in a meritocracy, then who do you have to blame? Only yourself, right? As opposed to if you live in a system that's really rigged and you know, then you're like, well, that's just how the system is.

Um, but here's a here's a subtle point. Happy people happiness is also good for us because it actually leads to success. So even though yes this go- getting this always wanting more can actually detract from happiness there's the opposite causal direction that happier people are actually more likely to succeed. It's not necessarily that success leads to happiness. It's that happiness leads to success. Right? When you are a happy person, right? You have you have that creativity. Your your thoughts are flexible. Your um your immune system is stronger.

Um you're more likely to approach others. You know, you're more confident. You're more optimistic. And all of those things can become self-fulfilling prophecies. So this idea that sort of when you feel better, you do better. Yeah. There's research behind it. Hundreds of studies support that idea. You said before that money can result in more happiness depending on your starting circumstance. Can we just unpack that a little bit because this is I guess a slightly controversial area in terms of the relationship between money and happiness. You've done a lot of research I think around this entire topic and you probably know the latest research around this.

What does it actually tell us? Sure. There's like several stories to tell about money, right? So the first story is money definitely makes you happier when you're poor, right? So if money prevents you from being poor, it definitely contributes to happiness. The the the wealthier you are, the less impact money is going to have on your happiness. We know that to be true, but we also know and I also mentioned that um money will make you happier if you spend it on the right things, right?

We already talked about that. And then there's another subtlety which is from a study that was not fairly recent study. This is almost seems unfair. So money will make you happier if you're happier to begin with. Right? So they found that happier people when they made more money. So so happiness and money was correlated for happy people. But if you're an unhappy person to begin with, more money did not actually make you happier. Isn't that kind of like almost unfair? Um yes. The zen you you feel at the top of the mountain is the zen you take along the mountain side with you.

Right. Right. Exactly. Maybe because happy people are spending the money and we when they get the more money they're more they're happier with it. They spend on the right things. An unhappy person no matter how much they get is still grumpy and dis disgruntled. I wonder if if I might share my perspective on money and happiness. A couple of times you said that money can make you happier if and [snorts] then I think another time you said money can contribute to happiness. And the way I see it is that money can remove common obstacles to happiness.

But I don't personally believe that money in and of itself can bring happiness because happiness I believe is fundamentally an inside job. It's internal. So if money, for example, made us happier, why do we have so many wealthy people who are not happy? because I think there's there's other contributing factors as well and you know would you agree disagree with that? Totally. And actually I love the way you stated it that it removes obstacles and it's true it removes obstacles that that can make it harder for people to be happy but but some people no matter what right there and by the by the way part of it's partly genetic you know there's there's really strong genetic influences on happiness.

Some people are just unlucky to to kind of be born with a low set range for happiness. um because even when those barriers are removed for them, they're still not very happy, right? But I you know, I like the way you stated it. Um I'm a little I'm hesitant to use causal statements. So when I say things like money makes people happy, that's actually not something I would ever write down in a research article because it's too strong. Yeah. You know, it's a contributor. Yeah. Yeah.

It's correlated with, you know, you can't Yeah. We uh there's not that many experiments where people are given money. Although one of my colleagues, Elizabeth Dunn, has done studies where they gave people, I believe it was $10,000 [clears throat] sort of gifts and they found that yeah, basically if you're poor to begin with, those gifts made a much bigger difference in your happiness than if you're wealthier if you come from wealthier countries. Not surprisingly. What's the relationship between happiness and health? Again, lots of all correlational almost all correlational research, right?

So in I mean hundreds of studies show that happier people are healthier. So first you can look at just correlations, right? So happier people are have less pain, have less likely to have cancer, heart disease, less likely to develop a cold. Um some of my favorite studies, people were given were injected the rhino virus, the cold virus directly into their noses, into their nasal passages. Uh they were paid a lot of money to do this. Um I think $800. This was in the '9s. Wow. And that's that was a lot of money in the n a lot of money now in the '90s.

Exactly. It was a lot. Well, because they it was a big study. They had then they had to uh sequester the participants in a in a motel for 5 days and kind of watch them. Anyway, long story short, happier people who were injected with the cold virus were less likely to to to get a cold and when they did, it was shorter. Right? So, if you're if you're unhappier, you're more likely to get a cold. basically your immune system seem to be less strong. So that's that's one example of a study.

Um happier people um and then so there's a correlational studies, there's longitudinal studies. So if you measure people at time one and you follow them across time, happier people live longer. Uh they recover faster from surgery. They're less likely to develop all kinds of conditions whether it's uh cancer, heart disease, diabetes. Um and then and then but really there are very few experiment. It's almost impossible to do experiments on this. Um it's almost all correlational. But anyway, so tons of studies that are correlational that show that happiness is related to health.

And the researchers try to control for other factors. So for example, in that study where people were injected with a cold virus, they controlled for things like age, body mass index, depression, which actually surprisingly none of those things had a had an effect. even depression you'd think because it could be that it's really depression that is associated with the strength of immune immune function. Um not in this study though. How do you think the culture in which we grow up in [clears throat] affects our view of happiness and I'm particularly thinking about someone like yourself who I think until the age of nine you grew up in Russia and then you came to the United States.

So you've kind of got two massively different cultural inputs to your perspective on happiness. [clears throat] Yeah. The story I tell myself um is that one of the reasons that I started studying happiness is that I was so shocked by the cultural differences when I came to the US. Um so in Russia, you know, you walk on the streets, people don't look happy. There's a there's a notion of the evil eye that I think is a is a you know popular cultural notion that if you sort of look happy or successful to others that bad things will happen to you.

Um in Russia that's in Russia. Wow. In the US you know you walk on the street you I remember the first place we went to was actually New York not famous for its happy people on the street but yet people would sort of smile and say hello to me uh walking the street and I was shocked at that because you just don't see that in Moscow where I was from. Um, but we actually recently wrote a paper that showed that it had to do with um who you express your happiness to.

In the if you go inside of a Russian home, people are singing and dancing and, you know, they look very happy. Uh, inside of American homes, I found they were kind of serious and, you know, like, please pass the salt. You know, there's no there's not really much singing, dancing going on. Um, but anyway, the bottom line is there are big cultural differences. We've looked at some of those differences. Lots of other researchers have. um you know some some cultures don't don't have a yeah don't even talk much about happiness in Russia if you ask people you know is happiness important to you they they they'll say no they'll say it's important to suffer again you you mentioned Zen Buddhism um they the Russians will say it's important to suffer because suffering builds character and also suffering might uh might lead you to to sort of to to find salvation in the next life.

So that's a, you know, that's one difference. Um, anyway, the the point is like there's lots and lots of different perspectives on happiness and and the American one, the Western one is just one one type of perspective. Yeah, it's kind of fascinating. I was reading your latest book, How to Feel Loved, this morning in my local coffee shop and I was I was deep in thought for about an hour and I was making all kinds of notes and then just before I got it to leave, one of the baristas said, "Hey, Rang, what what were you reading?" And as I was trying to very, you know, briefly kind of summarize the essence of the book, she said something which kind of relates to what you just said.

She said, "Well, I'm from Bellarus originally in Eastern Europe." And she says, "I think Eastern Europeans have this reputation here for being quite stoic and da and not smiling. But honestly, since I came to the UK, I find it quite hard to connect with people here." Whereas I find when I'm when I go back home to Barus that people are a lot more authentic and they talk more deeply. And and it was really interesting because I thought I I I initially thought of this book I read a few years ago by this Belgian scientist Bach Mskeisa called between us and she talks about the difference between me cultures and we cultures and you know and again I'm bringing up America because I think it's an extreme kind of me culture as opposed to a we culture and I think in America certainly one of the things I found when I started going for conferences is is you know you say to someone and this is a complete generalization but you know how you doing?

Oh I'm great. I'm awesome. It seemed to be that a lot of people are great and a lot of people are awesome right and I'm not criticizing it cuz all cultures have got their little tendencies right it's just an observation in Britain we're known for the stiff upper lip. You know we don't wash our dirty laundry in public as it were. we say the right thing and the proper thing when we're out. But I wonder if that barista from Bellarus is sort of part of her might be thinking that yeah but I don't know what people are you know really thinking right all these things play into happiness don't they in our ability to be authentic with other people.

Mhm. Yeah. I think authenticity is so important and one of the premises of this book is if you want to feel loved, you need to be known and you need to really know the other person. And how can you be known or know the other person if you're just saying I'm great. I'm I'm fantastic, right? It's that's a small talk, right? It's sort of this shallow level of getting to know each other. And um and so I agree with the barista that I think in a lot of Western cultures, you know, there's not much deep talk, right?

And so, but again, like you can't really connect and feel loved by others without that deep talk, without that authenticity because we're mostly just showing to each other, you know, the highlight reel, right? Just the positive aspects of one another. And when we do that, we don't really Yeah. We don't really know what's deep inside in the other person. Yeah. Yeah. I want to get into this new book. It really is fascinating. Let's just finish off though on some of the themes that we're talking about.

So, we've discussed some of the myths that people commonly believe about happiness. I guess we should probably define happiness at some point because I guess you could talk to 10 different people from maybe 10 different countries and ask them if they're happy and it might mean something different to them. So as a researcher in this field, how do you think about happiness? Sure. Well, when we measure happiness, we let people define it for themselves. Okay. Um but I researchers define happiness uh as having two components.

The first component is experiencing positive emotions fairly frequently. Not all the time but frequently right so happy people will experience depending on the culture of the person they might experience joy, enthusiasm, excitement or tranquility, calm, curiosity, pride, right? So depending on the person it's going to be a different set of positive emotions but experiencing frequent positive emotions is a really important part of happiness. I would say the hallmark of happiness but it's not sufficient. The other component of happiness is having a sense that your life is good that your life is going well.

You're satisfied with your life. You're progressing towards your life goals at a good pace. So those are the two components of happiness. Positive emotions which is the emotional component and life satisfaction which is you call the the cognitive component. And you really need both to be a truly happy person. And you can imagine being like when I had my two first I had two kids and I really was very satisfied with my life. I sort of had exactly what I wanted like a beautiful family and a great job and these two kids but I didn't have many positive emotions because it was so hard when they were little and it was a lot of negative emotions.

So I wasn't truly a happy person. You can imagine another person let's say a college student, university student who's like partying a lot and having fun. So they have a lot of positive emotions but they don't really know what they want to be when they're growing up. They're not really satisfied with the way their life is going. So they are high on one and not high and low on the other component. So you really need both components to be a truly happy person. Over your decades of studying this topic, are there some key things that you have changed your mind on or surprising things that you learned that you weren't expecting?

Mhm. Well, for let's see, for 28 years I've been doing what I call happiness interventions, right? Starting in 1998, this is a long time ago. Yeah. We my lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions. And happiness interventions are basically clinical trials, but instead of testing a vaccine or a medication, we're testing a practice like expressing gratitude. Does that make people happier? Doing acts of kindness. And so we've done 28 years of happiness interventions. And this is the surprising part, or maybe it shouldn't have been surprising to us.

A few years ago, it hit me that after all this time that all the interventions that work to make us happier, the reason they work is they make us feel more connected and more loved by others. Right? So when I write a gratitude letter to my mom, it makes me feel more loved by her. When I do an act of kindness for my colleague, my friend, it makes me feel closer to them. Right? So almost all interventions, all happiness interventions are about connection. So again it makes may may seem like a cliche but almost all powerful ideas when you distill them right sound like cliches for sure.

Yeah. Um so that's really the surprising thing that now there's some intervent there's some happiness interventions like like running on the beach or meditating. Maybe those don't necessarily have anything to do with connection although even those you could argue can be connecting. Um but almost all of them that work are about feeling connected and feeling loved. And so that's why I started to think about that as a key to happiness. Yeah. Although that kind of ties a little bit back to what we were saying before about cultural differences and and [clears throat] me cultures versus we cultures, right?

Because we cultures I very much grew up in a we culture, you know, Asian Indian culture is very much about the family. So, you know, doing things for others and doing things that are good for the the wider group are kind of built into how we're brought up. You know, I for example live in the town where I grew up, right? So, I when dad was alive, I was around to care for dad. Now, mom is not so well. She's elderly. Now, me and my brother are around to care for her.

And I was reflecting today and I thought maybe one of the best things I have ever done for my health, wellbeing, and longevity is to live near my mom. Mhm. Do you know what I mean? I know I'm not saying it is for everyone, but for me, I think it probably is. Yeah. You know, it's such a great example because I can imagine people listening saying, "Oh, but I'm because this is a sort of collectivist another but I I know Batia and I love her." Yeah.

Yeah. Of course, she's a colleague. Um, and I love I love I thought her book was great when I read it. Yeah. I I read it to you a long a while ago. So, but the idea of the Wii and the Mi cultures is a is just is a it's a beautiful way also to describe them. But I can imagine the people in the MI cultures listening to you and saying, "Oh, but I care about family, too." And yet, how many of us actually decided to to live in the town where our parents are?

Like very few. But yeah, the connection and of course you can find connection in many different ways. Um and and yet it is at the heart of it's the it really is the key to happiness. Again, it sounds like a cliche, but feeling connected and some people will say, "Well, I I'm connected to my religion or I'm connected to God to to my my pets actually, you know, or my child, you know, it could be you can find that connection in many different ways." Um, so it doesn't have to be living in the same town as your parents.

It could be something very different for sure. Um, but it it is at the heart which is why like the the AI explosion is sort of changing a lot of things. you know, people are even getting feeling connected to, you know, chat bots because it's it's so human. It's such a the heart of, you know, what we need as humans. Yeah. I love this idea that you've been studying happiness interventions like gratitudes and acts of kindness. And, you know, I've read many studies and which have shown that these things are really good for our levels of happiness, right?

And they're simple gratitude, acts of kindness, they're not difficult to do. But I like the fact that if you look at them in a sort of 30,000 foot view, all of them are helping us feel more connected. I think that's a really beautiful sentiment and and a very powerful one. And I think that kind of leads onto this latest book that you've written with uh your co-author Harry Rice. You know, is it Harry Rice? Harry Reese. Harry Ree, how to feel loved. Can you kind of explain to us the origin story?

How did you get to this book from years of studying happiness? Well, it it again it started 1998, right, when we started doing these happiness interventions and then again a a number of years ago where I realized it's really all about feeling connected and loved. And then I've known Harry for a long time. He's a preeminent relationship scientist. I'm happiness scientist. He's a relationship scientist. And we just sort of started talking about like what is the key to happiness? and he agreed, you know, really the key to happiness, he's like, he's like happy people feel loved and people who are unhappy don't feel loved.

And so it took us 5 years to get there. We uh we started we we were sending our book proposal to our agent for uh for 5 years. Um and it just it wasn't quite there. It wasn't quite there. Wasn't quite there. and finally just sort of all came together and we sort of came up with this idea of sort of five mindsets to bring to embrace if you want to feel loved, if you want other people in your life to feel loved. Um, and uh, yeah, so it took a long time, really seven years total and here we are.

Here we are. Yeah. I mean, right at the start of the book, you guys explain the origin story and and I think I've written it down, so I think this is what Harry actually said to you. I know people who are happy and people who are unhappy and I can tell you the main difference between them. Happy people feel loved. And I and I sat with that I thought about this on you and I was thinking okay happy people feel loved. The wording is really quite precise right because it's like yeah we all want to be loved.

We all know that it's nice to love other people and and and experience love from others, but feeling loved by others is something a little bit different. Can you kind of explain the difference? Yeah, [snorts] because we can be loved and not feel loved. We can be It's a little bit like a person can be lonely when they're surrounded by other people. It's a little bit like we all know people who are beautiful, but they don't feel beautiful, right? We know people who are smart and they don't think they're smart.

And there are people who feel love who are loved but don't feel loved. For some reason that love is pouring on them and it's not getting in into not getting inside of them. One one way I like to think of it is like there's a cup of love. This is my cup of love and you're pouring love to me. You're expressing it but maybe there's a leak on the bottom and it's sort of leaking out. Or maybe there's sort of a lid and it's not quite getting in.

So, lots of reasons why that might happen. But I think the important point is that really it's feeling loved that's critical to happiness, not being loved. One of the most underappreciated aspects of health and well-being is recovery. Many of us, I think, can be quite good at doing certain things that are good for us, like going for a run or working out in the gym. But I find many people these days have forgotten to prioritize rest and relaxation, which is really important for things like our immune system, reducing stress levels, and to help promote better sleep.

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Bond Charge giving my audience 20% off all of their products. All you have to do is click the QR code on screen or go to bondcharge.com and use code live more to save your 20%. If you're feeling stressed or as if life is a bit overwhelming, I put together a free guide to help. It contains three practical tools I've seen help the most when stress starts to build. Now, it's important to recognize that a little bit of stress is normal, but when it accumulates, it can start to have negative consequences for our health and happiness.

That's when these simple techniques can make a real difference. I explain all of them in my guide, Break Free from Stress, and it's yours for free today. Simply scan the QR code on screen or tap the first link in the description box below and I'll send it immediately to your inbox. With a few small changes, you can feel a little calmer right away. Yeah. So, so I think back now to a conversation I had with Bronny Wear a few years ago. She wrote the book Five Regrets of the Dying, right?

and and Bronny and I had this most gorgeous conversation. And one of the regrets that she found that people had on their deathbed is that I wish I'd spent more time essentially with friends and family basically on my relationships, right? I wish I worked so hard. I wish I spent more time on these relationships in essence. And I guess that in some ways speak to this idea, right? It's this idea of love. I wish I'd spent more time on love. Had I spent enough time on love, maybe I wouldn't have a regret on my deathbed.

But then I think we need to broaden out what we mean by love. Because I would say in the culture here in the UK, love is usually associated with I guess romantic partnerships or maybe a um you can love your family, you can love your children, but we wouldn't typically like a guy in this culture here. Yeah. And I but this came up on a podcast a few years ago with a guy called Nahal Arthan when he challenged me to say to my male friends I love you right and I thought initially I was like man you kidding me like if I said that to them because it's not what we do.

So what what is um you know how do you think about the word love? By the way I'd love to challenge you the same thing. So well please yeah let's go any direction you want. I think the US is similar. May maybe UK is a little bit more extreme on this dimension. But yeah, again, most people when they think of love, they think of romantic love or family love. This book is a is much more broad, right? We use love in a broad way. You could love, of course, we love our friends.

We can love our neighbors. We can even love colleagues. I think love should be brought to the workplace as well. Um my you know, I I tell my friends all the time that we that I love them. Um, I have male friends who will tell who tell each other that they love each other. I It's so beautiful. I think we could change that that um that norm. I think it's it would be beautiful to change that social norm. But it's so funny. My kids will be confused because I'll be on the phone and I'll say, "Oh, I love you so much." "Oh, yeah.

I love you so much." And they're like, "Who are you talking to?" And I'll say, "Oh, I was talking to my friend X." Is that because your kids have have grown up in America, so they have a different perception of what love means to you? Well, I think I think they are a little bit like what you're describing that they like most people they reserve love. Yeah. It must you must be talking to a romantic partner or another child or your parent. Um I mean I think hopefully they're learning from me but but anyway I would say why not bring love into other places, other spaces.

Why is that important? Because it's the key to happiness. And and I think expressing it, it's just so beautiful. Like if actually if your friends start telling you they love you, I bet maybe at first it'll be a little weird or uncomfortable, but it would make you so happy. It makes me so happy when my friends and I share our, you know, share express love for each other. You just said it's the key to happiness. So therefore, I have to ask the question, right? How many years now is it since you've been selling happiness?

36 years. Okay. Okay. 36 years. is you're you're arguably one of the world's leading researchers on this topic, right? And you've just said that love is the key to happiness. Well, let's let me rephrase it. Feeling loved is the key to happiness. So, after all these decades of research, you think it can be made that simple. Yeah. After and that's why it sounds like a cliche because it sounds so simple that after all these decades, I've learned that feeling loved is the key to happiness. So maybe if we back up and think about the things we discussed before, let's say money for example, maybe the people who when they get more money are actually they feel happy, maybe they feel happier, maybe it's because they're feeling love, right?

That I I I find that fascinating. It's not So does that mean we can cognitively know that yeah, you know what? I'm loved. My parents love me. my partner loves me, but maybe they're not expressing it. Maybe I'm not open to receiving it. And if I don't feel it, then it doesn't have the same effect. Of course, it's almost like it's not there if you don't feel it. But getting back to the three buckets that contribute to happiness, connection, contribution, and personal growth, you can interpret all of them as being about feeling loved, right?

So, if I spend my money on my friends and family, Yeah. then that'll make me feel more loved. If I spend my money on helping others, that'll make them and me feel more loved. And even personal growth, that's the one that's maybe a little bit different, but you could think about loving myself more. You know, when I'm if we define it really broadly, it could include self-love as well. Um, so when I'm learning and growing, that that will build my sense of sort of self-compassion and self- loveve for myself.

Uh, I've never actually put out this idea, so thank you for for inspiring it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get to this new book then, which is a a very thoughtprovoking read, right? So, it's all about how do we feel loved? And I I can't imagine you would go to anyone on the street and say, "Would you like to feel more loved?" I can't imagine anyone's going to say no to that. You know, it's a nice feeling to feel loved. Right. Right. Right. So, how do we go about our lives feeling more love?

Well, first of all, I just I just had a thought. For some reason, I have had several friends in Europe who went to bookstores to buy this book, and they all reported the same thing, which is that the the book seller kind of looked at them with sadness, kind of like felt sorry for them because they thought they don't feel loved. They're like, so which is so funny. So, when you were telling the barista story, I actually thought you might say she was like feeling a little sorry for you that you're reading a book about feeling about how to feel more loved, right?

because it suggests that you don't feel loved. But anyway, so the key to feeling loved is being known. So if you show love towards me, but you don't really know me, I'll always wonder, would he love me if he knew me? If he really knew who I am on the inside. So feeling known on the inside is really critical. Um, and it's interesting actually because that brings us sort of the importance, the importance of authenticity and showing kind of like your fuller self or maybe your true self.

I'm not sure if there is really such a thing as a true self. Um, you know, one of Bronny Wear's the other one of the other regrets that she writes about in in the five top regrets of the dying, which is which is in the book, and I think it's the one that says something like, "I wish I had lived the life that I wanted to live, not the life that was expected of me." Totally. I think she says that's her most powerful one. I wish I lived my life and not the life that others other people expect.

I think that might even be the top one. Yeah, I think it was in here. I think because it's really about being your true sort of authentic self and showing that to others and how important that is and if you don't really know my authentic self that again how can I feel loved if you don't really know me like when you when you say I love you what part of me are you loving right if you don't really know who I am on the inside and so that's why having more sharing and having deep conversations is so important to feeling loved I wonder why we don't share more of our true selves with the people around us.

I guess part of it is because we feel shame. We we feel they're going to judge us. So, we put up these walls, don't we, around us. We said, "No, I'm not going to let you in." Which of course is why I think at least being with your close friends and being completely unguarded is one of the most energizing and rewarding things in the world. I mean I'm very very lucky to have some really really good mates and I kind of feel I could pretty much share anything with them about anything and it's just so wonderful spending time with them.

It's that's so amazing. And think also about falling in love with romantic love where when people fall in love, they often start like kind of peeling back the layers and and then that time period of sort of self-disclosure more and more and more where you learn everything about each other. It's also one of the most like intense and fulfilling times that people ever describe. Um but yeah, it's really it's it feels risky, right, to share more of yourself with others. There's some really great work by Nick Epley from University of Chicago where he says where people assume that if you share more that that's going to be uncomfortable that it's going to be we're going to be judged right it's going to be used against us or worse no one's going to care right and yet we we sort of have we mispredict right we we don't realize that actually it's going to be a lot more sort of fulfilling and comfortable than it than than we expect.

Um but yeah we yeah it's it's there's a risk that we take where we share more of ourselves. Yeah. So you you and Harry write about these five mindsets that we need to adopt or or we can consider adopting if we want to feel more loved. Right? So let's assume even if someone's listening has already got a load of love in their life and they want to and and they already feel very loved which is wonderful. Well, I'm sure there'll be many people who don't, right?

So, let's explore these five different mindsets. I have my favorites, which we'll get to. Uh, the first one, of course, is the sharing mindset. And I guess you just touched on that now, haven't you, a little bit? Yeah. What else would you like to say on the sharing mindset? Is this where I didn't notice it down but you I I really love this idea of fast questions which I uh read about early on in the book right about these these questions which very quickly allow you to go deep with someone is that is that under sharing mindsets yes it's under the sharing mindset uh it was a long time ago Art Aaron um who who sort of started this idea yeah it's called fast friends fast friends that was it this idea of 36 questions that that become increasingly intimate so you might start with like if you want if you could dinner with anyone, who would it be?

You know, but it gets gets much more intimate to like, you know, what's a traumatic experience in your life or when was the last time you cried? Um, nowadays, by the way, there's all these like conversation card decks that you can buy, you know, on on the web. And I have friends who actually bring these card decks to dinners and they will use them to prompt deep conversation and and and they work because sometimes we're sort of at a at a loss about what to ask.

And again, again, it's Nick Epley who showed this. We're afraid to ask deep questions of each other, right? If I like I think if I asked you a qu a really personal question about your life, you might think that I'm prying, right? Or that I'm getting sort of too personal, that I'm nosy. And yet most of us crave to be asked, right? We sort of I mean obviously at the right time, at the right place, at the right pace, but we crave to be seen. We crave to be heard, right?

We want other people to know about our inner life. And so, yeah, so don't hesitate to ask other people deep questions and then to try to answer those questions. I I I wonder if now might be a time for us to practice or or model this. Sure, let's model this. Um because this podcast is is literally about connection. It's about conversation. I've always said these are not interviews. I don't do interviews, right? What we do on this show is is have conversations where we explore ideas together.

So I think you know maybe some of those fast friend questions we should try. What was the first one you said about Well, the first one was like if you could have dinner with anyone, you know, who would it be? If I could have dinner with anyone, who would it be? It could be a famous person. It could be someone who's not no longer alive. Honestly, it would be um my dad. Yeah. Yeah. dad died in 2013 and yeah, I guess that if I could have dinner with anyone, I'd love one more dinner with him.

That's beautiful. Thank you. How about you? Thank you for sharing that. Um well, my my answer is not as deep as yours. I I'd love to have dinner with Bill Clinton. Wow. I just think he's so interesting and charismatic and he's had an interesting life and I'm sure he would tell great stories and and he would listen to my stories. Charismatic people are, you know, we all love charismatic people because they're so um because they're curious in us, you know, they make you feel like you're the only person in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the other questions? Um, well, the deeper questions are things like, when was the last time you cried by yourself and why? I think I'm trying to think now. When was the last time I cried by myself? I think it was quite recently. And it and it relates to my mom because mom's health has not been great for a few years now. And uh if I look at the entirety of her life, she's definitely coming towards the final. Let's put it like that.

So I guess the last time I would have cried by myself is probably in the last week or two when mom wasn't doing so well and I was just imagining what is it going to be like when she's no longer around. Um yeah, that that that would probably be it for me. How about for you? Well, it's a little bit similar. Um, I had my last kid when I was 46, which means that and she she's 13 now. Um, which means that when I think about um when I think about there's c there's a certain age that I'll never see her at, you know, cuz when she's 40, I [snorts] would be what?

I would be 86 and when she's 50, like I don't know if I'd ever see her at age 50. Uh, and c certainly not probably at age 60. And so the last time I cried was thinking about how I'll just never see certain phases of her life because I had her so late in life. Yeah. [snorts] And she does too. She cries about that, too. We've just asked and answered just two questions. But I feel that we have we've just learned something so remarkable about each other that we could have sat in a cafe somewhere or at a work event being together for the whole day and not got as deep as we got with just two questions.

Right. And that's I guess the point of what you're trying to say, right? And just in a few minutes. It doesn't have to be an hour of depth, right? Again, and and it just kind of breaks my heart how like how shallow most conversations are. Um that most of us don't go deep at all. Um and especially when we meet a new person, you know, because we've just met today. Um I was actually going to say if we didn't if we weren't recording a podcast, I would I would give you a hug right now because I'm also also a very physical person.

Um, but especially when you meet a new person. Usually when you meet a new person, you're trying to impress each other, which is totally human. It's totally normal, you want, like I'm sitting here and I want you to know think that I'm kind and smart and interesting and funny, right? And so we're showing kind of the positive parts of us and and that but which which might which might actually succeed. I might succeed in impressing you. I might succeed at getting you to admire me, but it's not going to forge a connection.

What forges a connection is really kind of breaking that fourth wall, right? And sort of going deeper. And I think I'm I'm thinking of examples like on first dates, like I've been on a lot of first dates where the guy, and I'm sure women do this too, but the guy will just spend the whole date just talking and sort of being impressive, which is totally normal. Doesn't sound like that. Yeah. No, but it's it's just how it is. Um, and uh, and once in a while I'll sort of um, I'll I'll kind of break that fourth wall.

Um, so I had a convers I had a date once where the guy was, you know, talking, we were talking about the war and, you know, in Gaza of all things and he's really intellectual, really smart writer and I kind of stopped him at one point and I said, you know, you're a little bit intimidating, you know, which is a vulnerable thing to say, right? because and I'm actually not even easily intimidated but I felt I felt him to be very intellectually form formidable intellectually formidable um and he was like really and it just kind of broke this the kind of the medium shallowess of the it wasn't shallow but it was just it was sort of intellectual and he's like really why do you think so you know and so it's just one example where you can kind of puncture that you know yeah you I guess you wanted to know him not how much he knew knew.

Mhm. But like who he was. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So like really showing. So the sharing mindset is about showing kind of who you believe yourself to be on the inside and what matters to you. It doesn't have to be dumping your traumas or secrets on that other person, right? It's sort of just being real, being authentic. Um because again, you're not going to feel connected. You're not going to feel loved if the other person doesn't see what's inside of you. And I don't see what's inside of you.

Um, and so one one of my favorite parts of the sharing mindset is something called the vulnerability paradox. So the vulnerability paradox is the idea that we think if we're vulnerable, people will like us less, but actually people like us more, right? Because we think if we're vulnerable, we might be judged, it might be used against us, right? We might be uncomfortable. Um, and yet again, at the right time, and the right pace, it actually makes you more likable. How can someone apply the sharing mindset in their life?

Right? So again, the framing is that we want to feel loved because that's going to make us happier. There's five mindsets that we can adopt to help us feel more love. The first one is the sharing mindset which you just outlined. So if someone's listening and they're thinking, okay, I don't feel enough love in my life. How do I start applying this? What advice would you have for them? Do Health is a preventative health app I've created to help you understand when your health is starting to move in the wrong direction.

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Well, I think the order of the mindsets might have needed to be changed. Okay. So, can we do that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so because I real we realized I after after writing the book that if if I want to feel loved the first step is really to make the other person feel loved and that's happened to me in my life where I had a family member I didn't feel that loved by her and so I thought maybe I need to sort of somehow make myself more lovable and show my wonderful qualities and and I said no following the book the first step is to make her feel loved and the first step is actually radical curiosity it's called the radical curiosity mindset because the first step is really I show curiosity in you, authentic interest in your inner life and the details of your day and your passion and what you feel to be on the inside of you.

And so I start asking questions and then you tell your story that's and that's when Sherry comes in. Then you start answering the question and then you start sharing more of your full self and then I listen and that's listening to learn mindset. We've already covered three. So radical curiosity I shown you that helps you. So if I'm really curious about you and think about I mean you're a podcaster like so you are naturally curious. In fact I can't imagine someone if you're not curious why why why have this job right?

Um but but last time when was the last time that someone was so curious in you right they just couldn't wait for you to finish your sentence to tell your story. It's it's like a gift. It's incredibly it's it's so powerful, right? It feels kind of magical. So when you when I show curiosity in you, you're going to feel so good and you're going to want to share. You're going to want to open up, right? Even if you're someone who doesn't open up easily, then then the sharing mindset comes in, right?

You open up. And then when you're opening up, what do I do? I'm listening. I'm listening. What we call listening to learn, right? Instead of listening to respond, I am truly listening. I'm paying attention. I'm comprehending and I and I you know I care about what you have to say. And then the idea is and this is the hard part most of the time you're going to reciprocate. Yeah. Right. So the reciprocity norm is one of the most powerful principles of social behavior. You're going to reciprocate.

You're going to show curiosity and interest in me and then I start sharing and bearing and um yeah showing more of my true self to you. Yeah. I think we all reflect on our own lives. We can probably think about moments where that happened. Like I can certainly tell you on on doing a podcast for almost nine years now. when I open up almost certainly the guest will open up you know we just did that now didn't we with those questions but it you know because it almost I don't know it breaks the kind of invisible wall and then suddenly it's like oh yeah you know you we're in this together it's a common humanity it's like yeah oh I I know what it that's like because I I I felt this or this happened to me at one point right yeah that's beautiful that's a beautiful example of the reciprocity norm working.

Well, it's more than the reciprocity norm. Yeah. Because you created a new norm. Uh it's the reciprocity norm and also kind of a a depth of conversation norm. Um yeah, you're you're modeling the behavior that you want the guest to also show. Yeah. Yeah. There's one thing you said which I I I loved which is can we change the order of these mindsets because I think there's something very powerful there which I've realized as an author is is this idea that the idea is never finished right so I in this country I have a lot of uh younger authors asking me for advice because I've written six books now and one of the things I will always say to them is you have Understand that that book is just a snapshot in time.

That's it. Right? It's the best that you can do at the time you press send and the paper gets printed. You don't suddenly stop thinking about it the minute it goes to print. Every single one of my books, if I had another three months on it, it would have changed again. If I had another six months on it, it would have changed again because these ideas are constantly evolving. So I I I just I just wanted to comment on that because I think it's really important that yes as an author but also in life right you're never done like you think you know something but then 3 months later you're like you may have a different perspective that comes to mindset five multiplicity right we can even sort of contradict ourselves sometimes as we're evolving and growing but that's okay.

Yeah. And in fact we should contradict ourselves as we're growing and evolving because otherwise Yeah. Otherwise, we're not really growing and learning, right? If we believe the same thing because there's things that I've said that I don't believe anymore. And people are like, well, they're kind of You said that 20 years ago. I'm like, I'm not the same person that 20 years ago. Um, my first book was called The How of Happiness. And I'd been doing research on happiness for a long time. And people kept saying to me, "Oh, you should write a book about happiness." And actually, I wish I had talked to you a long time ago.

And I kept saying, "I'm not ready. I don't know enough." And they're like, "No, no." And they kind of said what you said. They're like, "Just just write it now cuz that's going to be the snapshot in time." And I just felt like I wasn't ready. Finally, I was ready. Of course, when even when I was ready, it wasn't the final word on it because there's lots of things now I could change. Um, but yeah, I'm going to write that down after we finish. Well, I think it's the same.

You know, people say, "I'm not ready yet for kids." You're never ready. Like, do you know what I mean? It's a leap of faith. You get ready. You learn as you do. I wasn't ready to start this podcast, but I started. I figured out how to do it through the process of doing it, which I I kind of think the these are these are core principles to life. But I I [clears throat] want to definitely get to the the the final two mindsets because they're my two favorite ones.

Open heart mindset and multiplicity. Before we do that, I just want to reiterate what you're saying is that though these mindsets are important to feeling loved. Okay. The first one you would like to have as stage one is radical curiosity. M and one of the things I got from that chapter which I think is really important is you said that curiosity is not just a fixed personality trait but a state of mind. Okay. I think this is really really important Sonia because I think some people will go yeah well Rangan and Sonia you two are curious that's easy for you.

I'm not curious but you're effectively saying it's a skill that can be cultivated. Absolutely. But it's not easy. I have to say it's not easy and you can't fake it. Right. We all know people. We all know people who are curious in us in the moment. It's so interesting you say it's not easy cuz and I guess this is my bias because I'm naturally curious. I'm like what is easier than being curious about another human being like everywhere I go like this barista or coffee shops.

I mean you know my wife or kids laugh at me. I can talk to anyone about anything and and I it energizes me because I love learning about people. Right. Right. Okay. But you should not be a curiosity teacher. I think it comes too easy for you. Exactly. Yeah. It's kind of like the mathematician who's brilliant and they can't really teach math because they're just too smart at math. Um and I think for me I am a curious person but sometimes it's hard for me to be curious and so I have to kind of force myself but then I will find something.

I feel like every this by the way this is called social curiosity which is curiosity about the other person as opposed to a curiosity about a topic right because all of us can be curious about like you know football or you know marine biology um but about I I feel like every human has something to offer that's interesting and exciting right and novel but sometimes it takes a while to kind of get it to get get that right to find that out and so for me it's not so easy so maybe I'm just saying maybe I would be a little bit of a better teacher for those who are who are not so curious.

But yeah, it's a state of mind. It's something you can really teach to to train yourself on. I actually have a student Madison who did a study where she had people like every day try to be curious about something and so it worked. People really did find curious things every day. Yeah. Um I I I think it's a very powerful message that you can get better at it because I think I I personally believe that curiosity is one of the most important values to hold particularly these days.

Right. As we we feel more and more division, right? Exactly. I mean, I'm maybe I don't want to share too many ideas about this, but there is literally someone who I've been pretty good friends with for a number of years who I think is voting for one of the quite uh kind of extreme far-right [clears throat] uh political parties in the UK. And it's easy to just shut that down and go, "Oh, this is ridiculous." You know, what sort of person would do that kind of thing.

But that's a trap, right? I think that's an absolute trap. It's like, no, wrong gun. Why does this person who you have known pretty well for a number of years who is a decent guy on so many levels what is it about him you know what why does he adopt this belief right so applying curiosity to everything can be challenging and sometimes this is one that's a little bit more challenging can be but I'm like okay you can't just shut someone down for this say you're wrong I want to try and understand why is it that you think that this is the right move.

Do you know what I mean? Exactly. And cuz when you say to people, "Oh, you should be curious," and everyone nods and says, "Of course, curiosity is great." When you actually give us an example like this, um it's really hard. Um and there's actually studies that are done on this like it curiosity can reduce prejudice. It could reduce polarization. You know, in the United States, you know, you're sitting across from someone who's wearing a different hat, you know, no pun intended, right? Um, and then you actually ask questions like why why do you believe this?

Like why do you right why do you why did you vote this way and actually really it and also get to know people in a deeper way first. There's actually a really interesting study that was done recently where they had people of very different political persuasions share about this back to the sharing mindset share about themselves and one person would say you know I've been really struggling with my son and this is what's [clears throat] going on with my son and the other guy says I'm really struggling with my son and then you see you see each other as sort of as humans right the deep humanity within each other you and your friend you already have known each other right so you already know the person's decent in these other ways um another example is in the middle of a fight with your partner, try to be curious.

And it's easier said than done, right? But like sort of in the middle of the fight, you're like, "Wow, I wonder why they they are so angry." Right? Why are they so angry? Or or or as or as the amazing marital therapist Terra Rio says, when you're in the middle of that fight, remember that this is someone you love. I love that. It's beautiful. It's so obvious, but it's like remember this is someone you love. Yeah. Um but but radical curiosity, yeah, it's not it's not always easy, but it's very powerful and it does it can take work to really figure out what it is that you're interested in.

And another example is your kids, right? So to you want to show curiosity in your kids or your parents, by the way, one thing that I like to tell people is we're often not curious enough about our parents, right? They're the ones who ask us questions. We don't tend to ask them enough questions. And so I I would want to tell your listeners, you know, pick up the phone and call a parent or a caregiver and ask them like something they really care about. You know, what is it they're really caring about these days?

Or ask them about the past, their childhoods. Um uh but think about your kids, right? They might be I had a kid who was really into video games, going on and on about video games. I had no interest in them. And then I started thinking about, okay, how do I get curious about what is it they're so excited about? Um my one of my kids, my youngest um was also into anime and I again I had no interest in anime and she's like, "Oh, why don't you watch this show with me?

It's called Attack on Titan. I think it has like 80 or 90 episodes and I end up watching 86 episodes with her and it was actually an amazing show and even though it's not my genre at all. It's kind of violent and animated. [snorts] Um, but I I I learned a lot about her by watching the show with her and by getting curious about what it is that she likes about the show. Anyway, just to say that even things that you didn't think you'd ever be interested in, you might become interested in by showing curiosity.

Yeah. Okay. So, radical curiosity, sharing, listening to learn. Those are the first three. And then [clears throat] let's go into those final two. Your favorites. Yeah. that there does I I just think I know this is really you know on one level it's how do we feel happier but I think the learnings for me they go beyond happiness they go into how do you create a harmonious society right open heart mindsets you know the the the fourth out of the five mindsets I I just love this idea you know for a few years now I I love their phrase open heart.

The thing I've been thinking a lot about over the last few years is what would it be like Rangan to live each day with an open heart, right? What would it be like to start to notice when your heart starts to close? And as soon as you notice it, try and pause and see if you can open it again. And that goes beyond just me with my children or my wife. I like to try and apply that to like this morning I was in the in the coffee shop reading your book and I think it was in I was reading this chapter and I was trying to think about wishing everyone who walked in kindness that I remember random people were walking in.

I took my head up from the book and each one I just inside my head I thought I wish you to have a wonderful day. I wish I wish to be happy. he was and it was I felt great. They don't even know why I'm doing it and I was like this is awesome. Is that amazing? It also really works. Um if you have a colleague or a friend that you're actually not feeling great about, maybe you have a little bit of a fight with [snorts] them.

Yeah. And sometimes I I I remember doing this and I I was saying to myself, I want them to be happy. I wish that they were happy. I want And that really works to kind of reduce negative energy. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about this open heart mindset and maybe this is where we can bring in your trip to see the dada lama in because that's that plays a a feature in this chapter. Yeah, totally. Um yeah, open heart. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. So open heart mindset is basically seeing the other person uh with warmth and compassion, kindness.

Um the Michelangelo effect is part of the open heart mindset. I actually am teaching a class this week uh remotely about the Michelangelo effect on Friday. Um so Michelangelo is when you believe in someone. It could be your usually it's your romantic partner, but it could be someone else, your sister, your best friend. You believe in someone, you want them to be happy, you want them to achieve their dreams, and you help them achieve their dreams and to become their best possible self. Um, and the reason it's called the Michelangelo effect is that the artist Michelangelo was said to sort of look at a block of stone, just sort of a block stone, and he would see like a vision inside of it.

He would see a a person or an angel, and he would carve the stone, and he would sort of set that image free. And the idea is that you do that to your to the person, to your partner, to your best friend. Um, that's part of the open heart, right? So, it's kindness, compassion, warmth, and I would hope that most relationships have the open heart mindset already because they wouldn't they probably wouldn't be stable if they didn't. Uh, I often think that of the five mindsets, that's the one that's most common already existing.

Cuz if you don't have kindness and open heart towards your romantic partner or your best friend, you probably wouldn't be together. I would hope. I mean, there probably some some that don't. Um whereas like radical curiosity, you can have open heart but not curiosity. I've actually heard people say, you know, my girlfriend loves me but she doesn't she's not curious about me or she doesn't really listen. Um so but I think open heart is kind of at the Yeah. I mean it's the core of a relationship.

I I've become aware the last years of not in my life but I've I've heard from people that would say look I've been friends with this person for years but I've noticed that this friend doesn't appear to be that happy when I do well at something. M I wonder if that plays into this open heart mindset whereby the friend is I don't know maybe they've got their own insecurities and they feel threatened if their friend does well. Like I I I mentioned before this very tight group of friends I've got from university at Edinburgh.

Yeah. And one thing I know about all of those guys is that there's just zero competition. Right. We're we're well if we're if we're on a pool table or you know a tennis court or a table tennis table. Yeah. We're there's friendly competition between us. But what I mean is if any of us had succeeded in something or wanted to share news like we'd all be so happy for the other person, right? We wouldn't see their success as being a reflection of us not being successful.

But I know not everyone has that. So is that part of what you mean by open heart mindsets? And I I love this because just this weekend I was with these two friends who who are I I think of as my closest friends and I was saying the exact same thing to them. I said the thing about our friendship is that if we share any kind of wins or success with each other, it would just be 100% happiness. There would be zero, you know, thread or jealousy, right?

But that's not true for a lot of people. Yeah. Um and and I and when you think about in general, the list of people with whom you share your successes with is the smallest list, right? You're you're more much more likely to share something negative that happened to you. That's a good point. Right. When you think about what's the list of people that you would just feel like would Yeah. would would just be purely happy for you and not at all threatened. You know, we all, you know, we all have insecurities.

Um so, yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. So like to find those people because I I will like sometimes come home and I'll say like if I something good happens I I win an award and I tell my kids and they'll be like mom you're boasting and I'm like well kids like if I can't you know tell you about my success who who can I tell them to? But I think they learn in in school like you're not supposed to boast and and so I'm not even sure I would put my kids right now on the list of people that I would share my wins with.

But that's interesting is it that they're perhaps learning you're not meant to boast. This comes to this idea that we we pick up these cultural messages all the time, don't we, about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in the particular culture in which you live. And so, yeah, no one in western culture wants to come across as, you [clears throat] know, showing off or boasting, right? But take that to an extreme, it means that you hold back and you don't share parts of yourself with others, right?

Yeah. Exactly. Which is a sharing mindset. and with your mates from Edinburgh, right? You wouldn't think of it as boasting when you when you share a success. It's just like a beautiful thing that and and and you're so happy for each other. Yeah. I think it's maybe that should be like one of these criteria for friends is like if you feel like there's 100% joy in your successes, they're your true friend. What did you learn from the Dalai Lama about an open heart mindset? Oh, so interesting.

Um but you know when we we went to visit the Delhi long was with a group and it was led by Arthur Brooks um who's a friend and a happiness expert as well. Um and he gave us this speech then you know I think it was a group of about 12 people uh kind of the first dinner we had and he said you know I know you're all here looking for something you're looking for something from the from his holiness at Daly Lama and he said just forget about it you know it's not going to you know you don't know what that is it's just going to come it's just going to happen you're not going to know where how it how it's going to happen it's just going to but like don't don't strive for it and so we're we're having we had actually had multiple conversations ations with his holiness.

And you're not allowed to bring a phone or a computer. You can only bring a p, you know, pencil and paper. I love it. Old school. You love that. I love that stuff. You love that. Yeah. Yeah. You love that. I'll I'll get a I'll try to get an invite for you. Oh, please do. I would love to do that. And um so we're we're in Dharm Salah, right, where he's where he lives and works. Um and so we're all have our pencil and paper. And so he's talking and there's an interpreter and his holiness says, "Love is not a feeling.

Love is a decision. Love is not a feeling. Love is a decision." And I was like and I just I just immediately felt this is like a message directly to me. Maybe everyone felt that way, but I felt like this is a message directly transported to me. And so I wrote in kind of big letters, you know, circled it. Love is not a feeling. Love is a decision. I think people can interpret it differently, but one way to interpret it is that it's an it's an act.

Like you do things to be in love, to maintain love, to express love, to receive love. You don't wait for it. You act with love. Um and you decide to love. You decide to receive love. So, um, that's how I I interpreted it. It's not it's not just sort of the sort of feeling that kind of like drops on you from the sky and suddenly you're like, I'm in love. Um, that you that you have you have you act with love. Why do you think that phrase had such a powerful effect on you at that time?

I think at that time I was thinking maybe my heart wasn't that open. You [clears throat] were talking about whether your heart is open. you want to live with an open heart cuz I was waiting to sort of fall in love and I think I was thinking that yeah this was this was going to sort of drop from the sky somehow. I was going to meet someone and and I would just fall in love. Um and I think I realized that like I have a lot to do with it that maybe to open my heart up and I'm not even sure what it is.

It's uh it's it's all kind of a little bit of a mystery, right? Yeah. um that it's really a it's something you can act on and not just sort of wait for. It's interesting when when you said that love is not feeding, love is a decision, I immediately thought of my wife. And I guess if I thought about that phrase for a bit longer, I might have multiple interpretations of it. But the thing that came to mind immediately was when I decided to ask her to marry me all those years ago, I made a decision.

I made a decision to love her. The intention being for the rest of our lives and that is a decision. Yes, you could argue, oh, things happened. There was passion. There was romance and there was it was complete head over heels. But I guess beyond that point, when you get into the nitty-gritty of marriage and kids and mortgages and family and all that kind of stuff, it's a nice reminder that no, this is a choice that you made. It's a decision. It's a and not not as an obligation.

I don't as a as a as a very beautiful thing that I chose. Again, you know, like we mentioned before, Terry Real saying, you know, remember that this is someone you love. Mhm. Remember this is someone you chose to spend time with. Yeah. Bob Sternberg has a theory of love called the triangular theory of love and and decision to love is actually one of the three sort of vertices. It's sort of a sort of intimacy, passion and decision. So um that's aligned with that as well.

One thing as I was reading your book and thinking about your life and the fact that you have studied and published scientific papers and peer-reviewed papers on happiness for so long. I was trying to put that alongside how powerful your meeting the Dalai Lama was. Mhm. And it made me think, it made me think about putting to you this idea that when we think about happiness, is the scientific method the best way to look at happiness? Um, it's I don't know if it's the best way.

I think it's a very important way. It's interesting. Okay. A few years ago, you see what I'm getting at? Yeah. Yeah. A few years ago, I would say yes, it's really the only way, you know, and I've been an a rigorous empirical scientist for 36 years. Um, and I think for most of that time, I kind of looked down on people who would give advice that wasn't evidence-based, right? That was not empirical. I mean, you could I mean, I could respect say the Dalai Lama. Well, here's a well maybe before I really, you know, had met the Daly Lama.

But thinking thinking about I would respect say a wise person like a grandmother, right, who's wise and had a long life and might give you advice. That's that I would respect that. I would respect say a therapist who's been, you know, who's had lots of clients and has seen lots of different problems and said, "Well, from all of my experience, this is what I think, you know, people should do." But I still somehow thought I elevated the empirical scientific method over all of these other sources of wisdom and knowledge which really were, you know, anecdotal and clinical, right?

But now now that I'm older, I really I can I don't know now I see that these are just different sources of wisdom and they're all equally valid. Um, and I also draw now on my own, you know, life. I have lots of life experience. I've lived like many lives in a way. You know, I've been single, I've been married, I've been in different countries, you know, I've had four kids. Um, and so it used to be if people asked me a question, let's say you asked me, Sonia, do you think I should write gratitude letters once a day or once a week or once a month, I would say, Rangan, I have no idea because there's no study that actually, you know, empirically tests, you know, that exact question.

And now I would say now I I would answer the question. And I would say, yeah, there's not exactly a study that, but I know enough from all the research I've I've done, I've read, from my life experience, from my friends experiences, from my therapist, you know, um that I would give you an answer. So, I feel like it's now I feel like it's equally valid to draw on all these sources of knowledge and wisdom. Yeah, I I love that answer. And I guess the the reason for asking is because I think all sources of knowledge and wisdom are valid and I think we need to look at them all.

Right. So in in my world of health, scientific research is very important, but so is clinical experience. And I I've said this many times with this podcast. I think we've over prioritized scientific research at the expense of clinical experience. So I think with health that is a massive issue because clinicians who have seen tens of thousands of patients have picked up stuff and you see patterns and you see things that aren't you you see things that haven't always been answered yet by science but you also know them to be true.

Right. I always say absence of evidence is not equal to evidence of absence. Right. Just because it hasn't been tested doesn't mean that yeah the scientific method is there to try and test things you know let's say in medicine or clinicians are noticing something it's okay well okay a lot of clinicians are noticing this we haven't got any studies on this why don't we study it to see if we can understand what might be going on I guess I was thinking about it through the lens of you meeting the Dalai Lama because I know he's very interested in science right I I read that in your book I've heard you say that before but this idea that he Mhm.

you know, I think I've heard you say he was he talks a lot about a mother's love. Yeah. Which we maybe just Oh, it's so beautiful. So beautiful what he said and I repeat this a lot to my kids and to my friends. He said, "I'm your mother and you're my mother." Rangan, I'm your mother and you are my mother. How can we ever fight each other or or hate each other when we're each other's mothers? like everyone, I am your mother and you're my mother.

I think he said it's an old Buddhist idea. It's such a beautiful idea. It's beautiful. I'm your I mean, you turn to the person on the street next to you. I am your mother and you're my mother. Um yeah, some of us may may not choose to say that to the person in the street. But but but yeah, even if you were to think that, right, every time you're about to get annoyed with someone or Yeah. you know, driving in traffic and someone drives in a way that you don't like before you scream exploitives in in the safety of your car.

It's quite a nice thought to go, you're my mother. Yeah. And similar to I want you to be happy. Yeah. I want you to be happy. Cuz of course, if you're my mother and I was your mother, we'd want each other to be happy. Um that's what's really interesting though, isn't it? this this idea that there are people out there like the Dalai Lama who seem to have wisdom like really really insightful wisdom to share with us who have not right done research. It's fascinating, isn't it?

Or what did you say before about um loving others, right? and love thy well in the in the in the Bible it's like you know love thy neighbor like yourself it's all there well a couple things first of all people I will get emails to say all your research is in the Bible right forgiveness and gratitude um but when I was preparing to read write my first book so it was published in 2007 I was writing in 2005 u long time ago 21 years ago and so I decided to read a bunch of self-help happiness books first just to see what's out there and I read the art of happiness happiness by his holiness.

And I I've often said since then and and you know before then that that's that's the best book of happiness out there you know that I had read. Um and just as you say like even though he's not a scientist pretty much everything he's he writes in the art of happiness is true. Yeah. I guess some people maybe it depends how you've been brought up, right? depends on what you believe. Like I guess if you've been brought up to believe in the sanctity of the scientific method and actually that we can only look at the world through the lens of science then you will need scientific evidence before you write in your gratitude journal.

Right now you know as it happens there is a lot of research on the benefits of gratitude but some people won't do it. Okay. What gratitude? What what you what you want to write down a few things I'm grateful for in my life. Are you kidding me? I've got better things to do. Oh, what? You're telling me there's a study there that's going to do that for me? Oh, now I'm going to do it. So, I think that's kind of interesting that we're all different. We all need different things.

Um, as it happens, I know listens to this podcast are fans of journaling and are fans of gratitude. You have studied this as one of your happiness interventions for many years. Can you give us some topline kind of uh take-home points as to, you know, what does the research tell us about gratitude? Um, right. Well, first of all, I wanted to say um I often get asked to give talks to groups of physicians or doctors because they're and they're the groups that really want that scientific credibility and that scientific evidence, right?

They don't want a self-help guru who's sort of talking about their experiences. Um, and so I always start with gratitude. gratitude just seems kind of silly and trivial and almost hokey, but it's very powerful, right? So, I I mean I myself don't love the idea of like counting blessings, but lots of studies have shown that if you write down things you're grateful for, you know, about once a week, you're happier. You feel more connected. Gratitude letters turn out to be even more powerful than gratitude lists.

Partly because when you write a gratitude letter to a particular individual like your mom or your colleague, your mentor, your best friend, it's much it's it's richer, right? Because you're writing about what it is that they've done to support you. Um, you know, does that still have a benefit whether you send it or not? Well, we don't com we don't we've we've done that. We've done both, right? Because the original study actually the the first graduate study was done by Marty Sulligman where he had who's the founder of positive psychology where he had people write the letter and send it and there was a powerful effect but we said okay the problem there is that the sending and the expressing are confounded right we don't know what what cuz because sharing the letter with someone is very powerful and so we split it we we disentangle those two things because we found that just writing is powerful But we did another study where we had people either write to themselves gratitude or text it to another person or express it on social media because we thought that might be interesting comparison.

We actually found that all of those conditions uh were associated with more happiness. But only one of those three people felt more connected. Can you guess which one it was? Writing privately, texting or social media? Writing privately. M texting texting well because you're actually test texting that gratitude to a person right so right so I'm so I'm tell I'm basically sharing it right so so writing privately versus sharing so sharing one-on-one to with someone was the most connecting sharing on social media wasn't as connecting or writing privately well I think back to these mindsets and the second one is the sharing mindset and of course that's what you're doing when you write a gratitude letter and share it.

Yeah. You are being vulnerable, aren't you? Exactly. Exactly. Which is why it's uncomfortable for people there. And in fact, we we've looked at the cultural differences because in some cultures it it's not something that's done very often. So it's so it's a little bit uncomfortable to share gratitude. Um but discomfort is not necessarily a sign that we shouldn't do something, right? In fact, often it's the opposite, right? people people like leaders will say, "Yeah, you wanna you want to go outside your comfort zone." It's almost like a cliche.

Um, but most cliches are true. I've realized as I get older, all cliches are true. You know, it's so funny. Yeah, cuz I I was saying how like feeling loved is the key to happiness. Sounds like a cliche, but almost every big idea is a cliche. It makes me think of people who go on like psychedelic journeys and they come back and they're like, I've discovered the answer to everything. And [snorts] you're like, okay, what's the answer? And it's like it's love, you know, or we are one, right?

And yet, you know, it's true. It's true. It's powerful. It's just it sounds hokey. It sounds kind of ridiculous. All right, we are one. We are all one. But before we move on to the multiplicity mindset, the fifth mindset in your book, if you were to reflect back to your meeting with his holiness, the Dal Lama, are there some key moments that stand out? You know, when you recall that whole experience, what are some of the first things that come to mind? Three things. one is actually meeting him and hugging him and you know it's beautiful and he's just he's just so naturally happy.

His face is just exudes such warmth. I'm really into like people who are warm you know and I'm not even sure what it means like you know it when you see it cuz often the eyes are just kind like you have kind eyes actually kind you know what I mean some people are just warm and and he's and some people aren't. They might have they might be so funny and interesting and smart and fun to hang out with but they're not necessarily warm. So I love the warmth hugging him that when he said love is a feeling not a decision.

And then a third thing that he said that I thought was that I also wrote down that I thought was so powerful. He said excessive self-focus is the door to all misery. Excessive self-focus is the door to all misery. And I thought it was so just wonderful how he put it and it's something that a lot of mine others research has also supported that when we're too focused on ourselves, you know, we're going to be unhappy and that almost everything we're talking about today is about a focus on others, right?

On loving others and listening to others and showing curiosity in others. that that the the irony being that most of us now walk around with a phone in our pockets that has a camera that we can focus on ourselves. Right. Right. Like we've literally got selfie cameras, all of us, right? And and this is the new norm. But I think about that as a contrast to what you heard from the Dalai Lama, right? An excessive focus on the self. These flipping smartphones are for many of us creating an excessive focus on the self.

The you know now it's standard isn't it to use it as your mirror. You know if I just look as a snapshot of society we have a device around with us that is constantly encouraging a focus on the self and video calls. I just read that you know we have the self view. Yeah. And I would say everyone turn off the self- view every time. Don't ever have the self- view on. And I actually read somewhere that we 70% of the time we're looking at at ourselves when we're doing a video call.

Like we just can't help it. Um that's the point. We just can't help it. Yeah. We just can't help it. One of my favorite quotes is from GK Chesterton and it's something like we're all walking around sort of being the star or the protagonist of our sorted little play. It's like we're all playing this like [snorts] play inside of us and we're the star. Yeah. It's like we're all the protagonists of like our sorted little play and we're all walking around. Uh that's normal. That's human.

I mean that's how we survive. we have a sense of a I was just reading the Michael Pollen book about consciousness um and kind of how we have a sense of self and because maybe there's not really a self but we create it because we want to feel like that's me over there and that's me back then and that's me in the future and and it's all about me me I mean that's that's how we thrive and survive in the world the multiplicity mindset the fifth and final one what is this and why is it so important my favorite my favorite mindset Okay.

Well, the word multiplicity, I'm told, comes from trauma research where the idea is when you once you've had a trauma, it's part of you always, but it doesn't define you. And that so multiplicity is the idea that not any behavior or trait or feeling defines us as a person. That we're all we're like a quilt of many things, right? A quilt of like traits and behaviors and and fe and features and aspects. So sometimes I'm gentle and sometimes I'm kind and sometimes I'm selfish and sometimes I'm narcissistic.

And that's true for me, that's true for you, that's true for everyone. And it's like, you know, the it's like the Walt Whitman quote, you know, I contain multitudes. We're all many people. We're all many things. And you don't want to judge a person by just one behavior and one trait. And the thing is it sounds great, right? Like how can you disagree with that? Like we if I tell you that you're like, "Oh yeah, that sounds of course I agree." And yet when you look at specific examples then people have a very hard time with the multiplicity mindset.

Do you think that that might be because a lot of us tend to judge ourselves very harshly? Right. So we're not very forgiving to ourselves. We you know we can often have shame about stuff that we've done in the past and therefore we apply that and project it out to others. Right? We can't forgive ourselves. Of course, I can't forgive the person around me. They did this, therefore they are bad without realizing, well, yeah, but you might have that quality or that that that character trait within you.

It was just expressed in this person at that time and it could have been expressed in you if the circumstances were right. So funny. Yeah. And we project a lot, right? In fact, I definitely have friends who are like they're a certain way and then they tell me that I'm the same way and it's clearly projection. But I actually have the opposite theory, which is that it's evolutionarily adaptive for humans to be judgmental about others. This idea that like on the ancestral plane, we would meet people and we had to make snap judgments.

Are they a friend or a foe? Right? So to be judgmental is actually hardwired. But so now we're still judgmental kind of it's it comes most easily for us to be judgmental about others and then we can get to about ourselves too. Um, so, so then we have to override it with deliberate effort and intention and energy. And so, and I see myself doing that like I'll I'll see someone, you know, say something nasty to someone else and I'm like, h, what a jerk. And my first reaction is always, "What a jerk." And then I have to kind of override that, you know, something I don't always succeed with compassion, right?

So, so I feel like yeah, it's like it's it's auto, it comes automatically for us to make that that judgment about others and then we have to override and it but it also happens with ourselves absolutely that turning the multiplicity lens onto ourselves is so important because we judge ourselves just as much as we judge others, right? We have this sort of self-critic that's constantly telling us, oh, what a, you know, what a stupid thing you did. What a, you know, what a fool you are.

Why, you know, why did you hurt that person? I guess we can naturally probably see that with our children, right? Like if our children do something that perhaps isn't the most desirable thing, I guess most parents would probably intuitively know that this is not the totality of them. They were tired. They hadn't eaten for 6 hours. They were hungry. That's why this happened. We might be able to do that with our romantic partners, but I guess we often don't apply that same lens to people beyond our inner circle, do we?

But I think it's a very important I certainly know in my own life, actively cultivating the practice of being less judgmental has been incredibly beneficial. And I think honestly the way you get to that is with curiosity. Yeah. Because curiosity is the antidote to being judgmental. It's like why has this person chosen to behave like this? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So, it's harder when you don't know the person very well, right? Because you don't have other qualities of them to kind of uh as an antidote. But even with our kids and our romantic partners, our best friends, you know, I I hear this all the time.

People will say, "He's being he's selfish." you know, with the kids, you know, the the advice that you get as a parent is you can criticize the behav you should criticize the behavior and not them as a person, right? And I think and yet we still I think we still do it, you know? I think unless we're very evolved. Um, again, it's like our judgmentalness. It's really hard to to separate the trait from the behavior. Yeah. I read recently that there's a well-known personality online who's getting, you know, battered with all kinds of reals at the moment, right?

Um, everyone's making fun of this personality and and making videos and I'm just like, man, guys, this is a lot to be putting on one person. Whatever your view is of that individual, just imagine being on the receiving end of that from a lot of people all around the world. It's not a nice thing. But I was reading the other day about this idea that collective shard and freud is one of the fastest ways to feel connected. Yeah. So mocking someone and uh taking uh joy in their misfortune, especially when they're wellknown, Sheldon Freud.

Yeah. And then doing it collectively. So, we're all we're all bonding together over this experience of judging another human. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's quite interesting to watch it play out in real time. I'm like, "Oh, wow." Well, I can't help but think the playground with the bullies all getting together, you know, uh kicking a little kid, right? I mean, it's it's really not that different. And it sort of feels good to put someone down. Um and yet, it's not a recipe for happiness, right? Yeah.

In my book on happiness, right, I had this concept called uh junk happiness be core happiness. Um junk happiness being those little uh you know those little short um doses of things that you think make you happy like chocolate or sugar or whatever it might be. And I say listen in and of themselves I don't think they're a problem. The problem is is if we engage in them too often or or make the mistake of thinking they're giving us the true deep levels of happiness and contentment that we're after and I kind of see that you know the collector shardan freder almost of being junk happiness.

Totally. Totally. Because it's not it's not going to lead to durable happiness. Exactly. You're going to in the moment you know look at that guy whatever. And it actually make like eating too much chocolate. It might actually then make or or drinking too much. it might actually make you feel bad worse about yourself later like oh I can't believe I did that. Um, so but think actually I love this idea of junk happiness versus core happiness because similar to an idea that I and other others have which is very similar but it's basically like empty calories versus sort of nutrition, right?

So exactly. So having that little bit of a hydonic boost is fine but it's just really empty calories. Um, but it's not going to it's going it's not going to be long-lasting. But like say being kind to another or writing a gratitude letter or really connecting having a deep conversations with someone that's really more like the nutritional meal rather than that that's going to endure and it's going to be meaningful. One of my definitions of meaning is that it's something that endures, right? It's something that lasts beyond the moment.

Um, and so that's that nutritional that nutritional meal as opposed to the empty calories, the junk calories. same thing right in that chapter you quote I think someone calls Sar de Simone um who I had heard of you you a Brazilianb born healer and author and there's just this beautiful passage around the mindset of paradox the willingness to see other people as not just this or that but as this and that opening ourselves up to being surprised even being delighted by them. People are contradictory. They can be selfish and kind, small-minded and generous, extroverted and insecure.

Our minds don't like contradiction. That's the point, isn't it? Our minds don't like contradiction. We want things to be neat, orderly, categorizable because it helps us to make sense of the world and allows us to stay comfortable and self-righteous. I mean, it's so beautiful, isn't it? But it but it gets to the heart of this. It's it's messy to acknowledge that actually someone can do a selfish act, but the entirety of them is not a selfish person and even this idea that we have this within ourselves, right?

I think that is a very powerful realization to go. You've got all of this inside you as well. And if the conditions were right, it may come out of you as well. And I I I think that humanity is really important particularly today. It's I know particularly today and yet it's so hard. So I've I've been thinking about the multiplicity mindset for years now. And yet in my own life again I have to really override the judgmentalness with effort. You know even it does it's still not not easy for me.

Um I still when I see someone act selfishly my first reaction is they're selfish. And then I have to kind of take a beat and be like, "Okay, this is a selfish behavior in a in a person full of many other qualities, right?" Um, so it's really hard. Oh, you know, one of my pet peeves recently is that I don't know if you've noticed, and this is true in America, everyone's ex is a narcissist. So people are talking about their exes, everyone's ex is a narcissist, or their parents are narcissists.

And it's like, no, that's not true. First of all, we're all narcissists. It's a continuum. Yeah. We're just sort of lower, higher on it. But that's just an example of like people are just giving label. It's just easier to give someone a label. Like Sar says, our minds don't like contradiction. We want things to be neat, orderly, and categorizable, right? So, it's easy. And again, I I have to acknowledge that some people have left narcissistic partners and it, you know, that has been hugely problematic and probably very hard to do and well done for getting out.

And I don't think everyone's ex is a narcissist, but it might make it easier for us to move on if we can neatly put them in a in a in a kind of little box, right? Yeah. Yeah. What what is the like the multiplicity mindset? Understanding that all of us have multiple traits, right? How does that help us feel more loved? Oh, good question. Um uh well, first of all, it helps us uh make other people feel more loved, which is the first step and feel for us feeling.

Remember, the first step for me to feel more loved is to make you feel more loved. And so, first I turn the multiplicity lens onto other people, my my friend, my partner, my my colleague, and it helps me feel it helps me make other people feel more loved, right? Because if I see someone in a complex way, I see them in all of their messy humanity. I'm going to be able to be curious about them, to listen to them with warmth and acceptance. Right? So when you're telling your story and maybe I'm something you're saying to me I'm a little bit disapproving of or makes me uncomfortable.

I'm going to be again more accepting, forgiving, loving towards you. And then when I turn the multiplicity lens onto myself, it'll help me feel more loved because it'll help me love myself more. Right? And we know if I love myself more that I'll be then when you express love to me, I will notice it more. I will see it as more genuine, right? I will um actually literally will sort of the you'll fill my cup of love and it won't leak out if I love myself more.

So so multiplicity mindset is really important for both turning onto another person and also turning it onto yourself. Of course, in order to apply the multiplicity mindset, that might require an element of forgiveness. Yeah. And forgiveness is a word that a lot of people struggle with. Can you talk to us a little bit about forgiveness and how it applies here? Sure. So, forgiveness doesn't mean I'll I'll just start by saying what forgiveness is not. Forgiveness is not justifying. Forgiveness is not condoning. Forgi forgiveness is not excusing.

And forgiveness is not reconciling. You don't actually have to reconcile with the person to forgive them. Really, the the scientific definition of forgiveness is that uh is that when you're not forgiving, usually you're seeking revenge or you're seeking avoidance. You you want you you want nothing to do with the person or you actually want revenge. You want to yell at them or hit them. [clears throat] And forgiveness literally means to kind of like reduce those motives for revenge or avoidance and have a more positive kind of pro-social approach to the person.

So, so when you've truly forgiven someone, you basically want them to be happy. You have sort of a more positive reaction towards them. You don't have to reconcile. You don't have to excuse their behavior. Part of how to operate the multiplicity mindset is to forgive because we all have done things that sort of need forgiveness and other people have done things that that that we are willing to forgive. And one actually one strategy to be more forgiving towards others is to think of our own behavior that needs forgiveness and think of times in our lives when we've been forgiven and that's going to help us have empathy.

Right? Empathy is another important uh uh important state to help us forgive others, right? Just really understand stand in their shoes and try to understand like where they're coming from when they did that thing that they did. Yeah. Yeah. In that chapter, there was a practical exercise towards the end that I thought was really, really great. If you're unsure of how to put the multiplicity mindset into practice, consider this straightforward but surprisingly challenging exercise developed by ACT trainers. ACT being acceptance and commitment therapy trainers. Okay.

The goal of this exercise is to cultivate acceptance in situations that commonly trigger frustration or discord. An invaluable skill for any relationship. Okay. So, here's the exercise. Begin by identifying one of your partner's behaviors that you find especially difficult or frustrating and have them do the same for you. that in and of itself, right, I think would be powerful, right? Okay. If it's done in a calm environment and situation, I think, you know, being open and honest and sharing that, I think would be quite powerful.

But that's not it. That's like step one. Step, you know, and the example is perhaps they work too much, constantly interrupt, forget important plans or fail to pull their weight on household chores. Okay? whatever it is. Then for one week, commit to observing these behaviors with full awareness and without judgment. This means acknowledging the behavior with curiosity and compassion without trying to ignore, fix, criticize or interpret. And this is like like quite a hard game like a hard one. Okay. At the end of the week, reflect together how adopting an attitude of mindful acceptance shifted the dynamic between you and your partner.

I mean, I think that just sounds like a such a powerful and illuminating exercise to do. I I'm going to talk to Vid after this and Vid's my wife and see if she's gay. You going to do this? Well, I Why not? By shifting from judgment to acceptance, this practice can help both you and your partner feel more loved and more understood. So why would I not try it? It's going to do that for me. Oh, I'm surprised more. No, I'm not. I shouldn't have accept I shouldn't have expressed surprise.

No, I'm just uh excited. I'm excited because I've never done something like that. I want to hear what how it goes. But co I would say coincidentally but probably not coincidentally. My lab is doing a study right now uh on what we call partner acceptance to try to get people to accept their partner's behaviors more. And it's it's very similar to this where you identify some a trait or a behavior of your partner that you find very frustrating or even sometimes it makes you want to walk away.

So it could be like something serious. Now we're not talking about abusive relationships, right? We're talking about things that are kind of normal things that happen in every relationship. And then we have different conditions. One condition is actually goes a little bit beyond this cuz this is kind of just telling you to be compassionate and accepting. And people are going to interpret that differently, right? So one way is just kind of loving kindness is just to kind of send just say I want you to be happy just send kind of loving kindness towards the person.

Another is u gratitude. So, interestingly, a lot of these sort of frustrating uh attributes are often associated with positive attributes, right? So, the person who is a workaholic, they work a lot, they kind of neglect you, but maybe they're also a good provider or maybe they're also very organized, right? So, it kind of multitudes. Mult Yeah, exactly. We contain multitudes or um I had a partner who was um who like wouldn't text me back, you know, or who was often late and that was the negative quality.

But on the positive side, he was just so present with the people in his life that that's why he was not texting or he was late because he was really present with others and he's also present with me so he's not texting other people der while he's with me. And so almost every trait has kind of a positive quality that's associated with this. That's another that's another that's such a I think that is such a powerful teaching for all of us. Yeah. You know that the trait that you despise also has a positive impact in another setting.

And what what you use was beautiful like the partner who's not texting you. Yeah. Because whenever they're they're with their friends or at work, they're totally present. They're not looking at their phone. But he also does the same thing with you, which is a great thing. So would you want to cuz we would want to delete that trait completely from them because if you did, you would also have to delete the other thing that is a positive thing. And then the third way that you can you can do this experiment is with sort of more maybe the more obvious one was is just compassion.

Just thinking about maybe what is it in their background in their childhood that has led them to be this way, right? To sort of have this habit that really is frustrating to you. So maybe you know when they were growing up they you know they they lived in a chaotic environment and they had to kind of control things. They had to sort of micromanage things. And so now as an adult they're kind of a micromanager, right? And so they're doing it because it's something that's worked with them for them in the past and it's maybe it's not working so much anymore.

But having compassion about where that behavior comes from is also very helpful. No, I love it. Yeah. And the exercise I read out one of the things I really like about it is it's not really telling you what to do or how to feel. it it's given you the guidelines on how to do the exercise, but at the end of it, you're saying at the end of the week, you can ask yourself, how was it when you didn't judge, when you just observed, right? Yeah. The thing may still annoy you.

Or maybe you'll maybe you've shifted your perspective somewhat. Maybe you realize actually, you know what, I don't have to say something every time, if I don't criticize every time. I don't if I just watch and observe like I don't know what I'm going to find. But I think it's a really interesting one. I I love exercises that help us develop self-awareness. Yeah. I'm not a fan of stuff where people are told what to do. It's like I don't I I've never seen that with patients work in the long term.

I think that works in the short term, but over time people have to understand why are they eating this way? Why are they doing this exercise? Do they feel better when they do that? Do they feel worse? That's the only way things become sustainable in my experience. And so I love that idea that you can try that for seven days and then just see does does do things feel different. So I will email you and I will let you know. I can't wait. Look, we we we could talk uh for so long about this topic.

I'm truly fascinated by all your research. Even the book and this this this idea of feeling loved is the most important thing to happiness I think is is a very novel concept. We know that relationships are important and that connection is important. We know that you know being loved is important but feeling loved. I I I honestly think you and Harry have done something really wonderful by by putting this idea and putting it out there to us to to to think about how can we feel more love in our lives.

So, I want to acknowledge you for that and thank you for someone who has, I guess, realized throughout this conversation that they're not happy. Mhm. And that they don't feel loved in their life. What advice would you give to them? I would say for someone who doesn't feel loved and is not happy, I would say that it's under your control. I mean, I think this is I think it's a powerful message of our book is that when people don't feel loved, they think, oh, it feels very overwhelming.

It feels like what do I do? Um, I need to make myself more lovable, somehow convince the other person to love me. I need to change myself or I need to change the other person. I need to Yes, I'm persuade them that I'm lovable, that they need to love me. And that doesn't seem very feasible to me. Um, and in what we're arguing in this book, Harry and I, is that if you want to feel more loved, you don't need to change yourself. You don't need to change the other person.

You just need to change the conversation. Cuz a relationship is a series of conversations. You need to change the the next conversation and the one after that and the one after that. And how do you change those conversations? By applying the five mindsets. by showing by asking questions with curiosity by sharing something about yourself by listening truly listening to learn not listening to fix things by listening with warmth with kindness by listening with acceptance and forgiveness. So it's really about what to do in your next set of conversations with that best friend with the partner with your mom.

So it's really it's it's under your control. It's actually empowering. Yeah. I love I love that message that we can be the ones to change this. And I know I've read it somewhere in your book that it's like it starts with you. You go first. Yeah. Don't wait for someone else to do it. You go first. Just to follow up on what you just said, we both know that a lot of people feel lonely and isolated these days. And so there will be some people listening who'll be thinking, well, I don't live anywhere near my family.

I've moved for work. I don't have many friends. I feel alone. How do I start doing this? Could it be, for example, that if they don't have close friends or work colleagues that they get on with? Could it be as simple as going to their local coffee shop and ordering a drink and trying to apply some of this to their barista or at their supermarket when they're buying food instead of buying it on an online delivery service? Could they go and actually at the checkout talk to the cashier?

Like, is it is it is it the same principles that apply? It's the same. Well, I want to start with there's actually a study on this. People were asked to buy coffee at Starbucks by either chatting a little bit with the barista and asking for the coffee or just sort of ordering it on their phone and just picking it up. And people were happier when they actually had to sort of say something to the barista. I mean, it's maybe kind of obvious. It is, but it but for those people who needed science in the study to do it, you've got it now, right?

Exactly. So, I would say exactly what you said is applying the five mindsets. So if you're lonely and if you have but if you have any interaction with human with other humans to start with curiosity sort of ask curious questions. You don't you don't have to start very deep or personal but just sort of ask when you're really curious about someone people sense that and they want to they everyone kind of wants to talk about themselves. So first ask start by asking questions and really listening and then when there's room for that to share and to kind of gauge their interest and yeah exactly that and then listen with warmth and acceptance.

So that's all five mindsets and you do that with you could be at the coffee shop, it could be with a the colleague that maybe you don't talk to so much. Um it could be with a acquaintance that could turn into a friend or you join a running club or you join some kind of group organization. Um, and so again, I would say start with curiosity, follow up with sharing and listening with warmth and acceptance. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Hey, this this book, How to Feel Love, the five mindsets that help you get more of what matters most, I think is uh yeah, it's just wonderful.

Very thoughtprovoking book. So, thank you for writing it. Thank you for coming to the studio and thank you for the decades of research that you have done in this field. But I think many of us apply some of the learnings of your research without even knowing it was you who actually did it. Right. We we've covered gratitude and acts of kindness so much on this show over the years. But of course, some of that primary research has been done by you. So I want to say thank you for that.

Apart from the books, Sonia, if people want to stay up to date with what you're doing, are there any other avenues for them to do so? Sure. I have a TED talk that's five minutes. if you if you don't have a big attention span just uh if they they search for Sonia happiness but the how tofeel love.com really has everything on there um and has I have a newsletter and all the other research that I'm doing is on there so um thank you so much it's been a lovely conversation you have great questions and I love how you'd have insights in the middle of questions because people don't often kind of have insights while they're speaking you know they have kind of prepared questions and that's it so u I love some of those insights Yeah, I'm writing I have to write them down.

Um, well, I appreciate that and it's, you know, people don't realize this, but I've got my notes here that there's not a single question on here. It's just a conversation. I'm very clear what this podcast is. These are conversations [clears throat] and I've learned over the years like those five principles. I'd like to think that I have applied them on this show. you know, listen with curiosity, listening to learn, sharing, having an open heart, the multiplicity mindset. I I really feel that that is what this show has always been about and it's about exploring an idea together.

It's so funny because um actually in my TED talk, I say the key to happiness is is to have a conversation really because that's how you connect, you know, how you all these mindsets uh come across during conversations and podcasters are basically that's what you're doing for a living. But many of us don't really have a lot of conversations. So I would say if I had to give people advice like go out if you want to be happier today go out and have at least a 15minute conversation with someone.

And if you can't do it in person there's app there's an app called twos where you can just go on and have a conversation with a stranger. How do you spell that? Twos. It's a kind of a beautiful app. In fact the guy who runs it lives in London. I'm going to see him at some point. Um, so yeah, if you if you can't go to the coffee shop to have a 50-minute conversation there, you can go to this app twos or you can, you know, call up a friend, obviously, call up a family member.

But yeah, literally, uh, my advice is if you want to be happier tomorrow or today, have a 15-minute conversation. And you're do and you're doing this as your, you know, as your work, so you're maybe that's why you're happier or you're happier to begin with. Yeah. Well, Sonia, thank you so much for the conversation and um, I hope we get the chance to do it again at some point in the future. Yeah, it's a pleasure to talk to you. If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

Everybody wants to be happy and we don't know how to do it. You don't try to get happiness. If you try to get happiness, you're going to be in trouble. You do the things that you need such that happiness happens to you. Work to enjoy your life. Try to get more satisfaction and search for the lie of your existence.

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