How to End the Addiction Cycle & Transform Your Life

Key Takeaway

Max Jelliff's transformation from 12 years of addiction to winning the Moab 240 reveals that our greatest challenges can become our greatest strengths. His obsessive tendencies that fueled drug addiction—when channeled through recovery's tools and ultra running—became the foundation for extraordinary endurance. The key insight: pain isn't just a teacher; it's the catalyst for willingness. When you're beaten into a state of clarity, you have a brief window to make a different choice and set your life in a new direction.

Episode Overview

Max Jelliff shares his journey from severe drug addiction and alcoholism to becoming a champion ultrarunner. He discusses growing up in Newport Beach with alcoholic parents, his descent into opioid addiction starting at age 14, spending time in jail, and finding sobriety through AA in 2012. The conversation explores how recovery tools translated into ultra running success, the role of pain as motivation, and how his obsessive personality—once destructive—became his greatest asset in endurance sports.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How to End the Addiction Cycle & Transform Your Life from Rich Roll Podcast. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I've been sober for 12 years. It's a big part of who I am. I just come from like a really long line of alcoholics and drug addicts. People ask me, "What is my heritage?" And it's like alcoholism. Max Joliff, the king of Moab. The Moab 240 is a 240 mi race through the desert of Utah. You have climbing, you have descending, you have dirt, dust, sand. Moab 240s got everything everything everything for you to win Moab after only a few years of running. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Is so unique in the space. If you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve and you do put in the work, uh, anything is possible. You come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better, but how have they made you like a better runner? That's a great question. Awesome, man. Super nice to meet you. Uh it's been so fun following your journey uh over the past couple years, and I'm just delighted to talk to you today.

Thank you very much for coming. For people that don't know, you've won the Moab 240, and you're on this kind of ascent path right now in your in your career as an ultrarunner. What do people not get about a race like Moab 250? Moab 250? Moab 250? We see these videos, we watch your videos, we think we have a sense of what's involved. What is your kind of like reality check on what it's actually like to cover that much distance in a competitive environment? competitive environment?

competitive environment? It's almost like these races are not even races. Like I try to go into the multi-day events almost looking at it as this is a big adventure that I'm just trying to do absolutely as fast as possible. Um and it's like you almost can't wrap your head around being out there and pushing so hard for I mean quite literally days straight um and not sleeping. It's just there's there's so many outside factors and variables. I mean, you run a 100 miles and it's like you're problem solving and dealing with, you know, all these different little issues that might come up and foot stuff and uh pains and, you know, fueling and hydration and uh, you know, managing electrolytes and sodium and the crew logistics and the gear.

there's like so many moving parts and I think the um the 200's and the multi-day stuff is just like that just longer and on a bigger scale. scale. scale. So um So um So um yeah, it's hard to almost even look at them as a race and most of the time you're like out there by yourself like the field is so spread out. You're on some kind of spiritual spiritual journey. Yeah. No, quite literally. Yeah. And like I said earlier, it's like you can experience every single human emotion during the uh during a race like that.

The crazy thing in in the King of Moab video is those last four miles, you know, that that last stage where, you know, after all that time and distance, it was still up for grabs. Like, are you going to win? Are you going to get past? Did you like all these, you know, like you're moving so slowly at this point. Anything can happen. And then you find your legs, you're like, you know, God gave me my legs back. And you're hitting, you know, paces that you hadn't like in the entire race like at the very end of this thing.

Like it makes no sense. sense. sense. Um Um Um that you could like f like dig that deep or suddenly, you know, find that like deeper reservoir of, you know, access like, you know, a capacity that, you know, no one would have thought possible. possible. possible. Yeah. And that's like kind of just the race factor and you know being motivated and getting a little spike of adrenaline or like seeing like the hope or the light at the end of the tunnel like oh maybe there is still a chance for me.

Um which is really what I felt during Moab. I was you know 5 hours behind the leader at mile 200 um 15 miles behind him and he just happened to be going through you know a rough part of the race for him. he kept having to stop and um you know the 12 hours before I was having a really rough section. So it's just like it's so variable and the races are so long and so many things that could happen like you can quite literally get to the very end of the race, you know, second to last aid station like I did at Coadona and just have to drop like can't stand up anymore.

Got a cellulitis infection in my legs and I can't stand up. I can't put shoes on. I can't move. I'm It's over. Yeah. after all that time being out there pushing so hard, so much work, so much so many months of training and it all comes down to this race and it's just just doesn't happen. Yeah. It's just the way it goes, you know. What do you think are this the most salient aspects of of your upbringing that have contributed the most to you being who you are today?

Um, yeah, this could this could be a very long story, but I think maybe the best way for me to just put it is like I had a like just a really complicated upbringing in life. Um, there was lots of good that happened. Um, Um, Um, you know, I I can't say it was all bad. Like I really did enjoy my childhood. And um you know, I was lucky enough to be born and raised in like a really incredible place, you know, Newport Beach, like of all places.

Like what a what a killer place to uh to be at to, you know, be a kid and to grow up in. But um yeah, I just come from like a really long line of alcoholics um and drug addicts. you know, my entire family, both my parents, uh, my sister, my grandparents on each side, probably, you know, their parents and their grandparents. It's like people ask me what is my heritage and it's like alcoholism. It's not like English or European descent. It's like alcoholism is uh just where I come from.

And um yeah, as much as uh you know, I've had it just absolutely rock my family. Um it was kind of inevitable that I was going to go down the same path. And like I really do think if I even if I had the best upbringing ever and there was no trauma and no abuse, like I still probably would have gone down the same path that I did. Um, and yeah, I think that all just like started from the beginning with me just uh having this uh this obsessive mind.

Um, and you know, like even when I was like a little like real little kid, it was like Halloween time, like candy, like being obsessed and like hoarding like candy or sneaking off to go to 7-Eleven to get a little sugar fix. And uh you know just uh yeah the the the signs were all there and it was pretty clear from you know a third person perspective that I was going to end up uh with an addictive personality and kind of uh fall into alcoholism and drug addiction.

Um as much as I would have not liked to and I've seen it absolutely rock my family. My mom's been sober for, you know, 36 plus almost 40 years. And um my dad, you know, is uh has had a a really rough go and is still currently out out out suffering and he's out and um yeah, that's uh that's a really difficult and uh complicated relationship for me to even talk about. But um I know it's not different than a lot of other people. Like I I know so many people that you know suffer from the same thing that I do and have a very similar story.

So me at least being able to share that with people and tell my story and if people relate to it and can get something good out of it, that's like what what I um what I look forward to and what satisfies me the most. And yeah, it's like, you know, first started drinking and using right around, I don't know, middle school times, like 13, 14, like started off smoking weed with friends and, you know, cracking a couple beers and, you know, just being a curious kid, trying things out.

And, um, kind of right around the same time, uh, I ended up, uh, I think I was 14 years old, I was with my mom and my sister. We were at Trader Joe's and I had some friends that were um going to go to the skate park and I was in a rush to get home and uh was crossing the street uh in the crosswalk with my skateboard and this lady hit me in her car going like 35 miles an hour and uh I ended up in the hospital.

Uh I like almost broke my femur. Um I ended up just chipping a bunch of my teeth, got road rash all over my body. They rushed me straight to the hospital. Um they were doing CT scans on my brain. I wasn't wearing a helmet. Um so uh just a very chaotic uh traumatic event. And you know they get me into the ER and they just hit me with morphine. And that was the first time in my life where I was like okay like I'm going to be okay.

Like despite this like crazy traumatic event that had just happened to me. It was like I felt the relief for the first time, you know, the warm blanket. Yeah. And then they send me home with a prescription for Oxy. And uh that kind of like set in motion this uh this snowball that turned like uh into a really really big problem for me in my life uh throughout the next I don't know 10 years. 10 years. 10 years. Yeah. So it was Oxy that was the drug of choice.

choice. choice. Yeah. I mean it was it was always kind of opiates and I like I was a garbage disposal for a long time. disposal for a long time. like I would do or try anything. But um in the end it ended up just being uh opiates and heroin and like those Purdue Pharma Oxycontton pills like the Zackler family like family like family like the that uh documentary painkiller like that's those are the pills that really like destroyed me and like almost an entire generation of people and a ton of my friends and yeah I've uh it's just it's just brutal man.

So the heroin is the heroin when you just run out of the pills and you can't you don't you can't get them. That's the path to heroin. Yeah, it was around God it had to have been right when I was graduating high school around 2010. Um I think the government and uh people started to catch on these things are so highly addicted. addicted. addicted. Were you going to those pill clinics where it was just super easy to like fake a script or something? Yeah, I wasn't specifically, but I had, you know, multiple friends that were doing the doctor shopping, you know, going coming up to LA, you know, seeing crooked doctors, getting 120 of these 80 milligram oxy pills and then going down the street to another crooked doctor that'll write them a prescription for another 120.

So, they were like everywhere. I mean, if you were um a user, it was like very easy to get those things. and around 2010. And well, what was super unique and weird about those pills is like you could so easily just scrape the time release coating off of them and like people were smoking them on tinfoil like like straight up heroin and um and um and um I didn't know you could smoke them. Yeah. So that's what me and I mean you could smoke them, shoot them, eat them.

They were like it was a very maybe innovative maybe innovative maybe innovative creation. That's dark [ __ ] though, right? And was that intentional on their part? Uh, part? Uh, part? Uh, who knows? Um, but yeah, that was just like, you know, I, you know, having and like a lot of those friends who were doing that same thing that I was that or doing the doctor shopping thing and addicted just like I was. Like I have a friend who he broke his leg surfing and they they prescribed him those pills.

It was like we almost like like like we like none of us planned on being like junkies and drug addicts. But um that's just like you know you I I think anyone if you put on those pills for long enough like you will become addicted. There's like it's unavoidable. Like our brains are just wired when that chemical hits your brain it's just like you become dependent upon it. And around 2010 the government caught on. They just stopped making them. They banned them. So, uh, they just pretty much overnight disappeared everywhere and all of these people who were addicted to, uh, these pills just immediately switched to heroin.

heroin. heroin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your mom's, your mom was sober has been sober your whole life, though. Right. So, and I would assume that she's got some, you know, kind of radar vision, you know, when this starts when this starts kicking off for you, like what And how many siblings do you have? Like, what was going on at the at the house at this time? So, I have one younger sister. Um, and my mom, she's been, you know, sober her whole life. Uh, she was a stay-at-home mom.

And this is where kind of the whole family dynamic uh gets a little bit uh interesting is she uh she like never really worked a job. And when uh you know right around the same time that you know I'm starting to experiment with uh using drugs and alcohol like we have the 2008 financial collapse and uh my dad uh he was a uh a creative writer um he has a master's degree in journalism from Northwestern just a very smart uh and very gifted and talented uh human being but just deep at his core just an alcoholic that never really was uh equipped to deal with life, you know, and um he ended up losing his his job um due to alcoholism.

And you know, for the majority of my childhood, he was like kind of pulling it off, but you know, always kind of chipping on the side. Like we'd go on family vacations and uh the family car would like be be totaled and you know, he would have a DUI or some story that was like, "Oh, someone borrowed my car." you know, typical typical alcohol. typical alcohol. typical alcohol. He was in the house. Um, and then, uh, their marriage, I mean, just I mean, my dad just really lost everything.

Um, and their marriage fell apart. My mom, you know, didn't really have anywhere to go. So, she ended up um, moving to Arizona to live with her parents. And, uh, me and my sister just like didn't want to go. and we chose to stay where we were um and what we were familiar with and uh were kind of like left with this man who was uh just a progressing alcoholic and uh yeah, things got like really bad and dark um pretty quickly. You know, my dad like it was every day like a pint of vodka.

I'd come home from school and he like leaving Las Vegas style. Like worse. Like he like he would spend, you know, days on end just on the couch like couldn't even get up or stand up. Like he would drink fifths and just giant bottles of vodka. And I, you know, I'd come home from school and like find him on the floor of the kitchen and have to like get on my hands and knees to check if he was breathing. And that was like a daily occurrence.

It's like I remember one time I got arrested at school for uh stealing a sandwich from this like deli that was like across the street and I ended up getting busted coming back on campus and they had me, you know, in handcuffs in a cop car and school gets out and everyone walks you walks past. I'm just completely humiliated and this cop I ended up getting suspended and whatever. It was like wasn't that big of a deal. Um, but the cop was say was telling me he's all, "Hey, like you like I can release you if you have a family member that can come pick you up." And I was like I just straight up told him I was like, "Dude, you can call my dad, but he's not going to answer.

Like we're across like we live in these apartments across the street and like you can walk me over to our house and I'll open the door and he he'll be passed out on the ground." And um cop drove me over there. who walked up to my door and opened the door and lo and behold, he's just like literally passed out on the floor and um it was just [ __ ] like that, you know? It was just uh just uh just uh So, you're just you're just left to your own devices.

You got to raise yourself. It's just chaos and like I you know, dude, the only thing that I like that makes me feel comfortable is just like the same [ __ ] that he's doing. It's like drugs and alcohol were like the solution and the fix and just like what made me just feel okay with like the shitty circumstance circumstances of my life. But the internal conflict, the tension of like I'm never going to be like my dad and knowing that like yeah, you're kind of headed in that direction like deep down like maybe not consciously admitting it to yourself knowing that.

Yeah. As much as I don't want to float down the river to, you know, you're on this inevitable like escalator that you can't get off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I'm so sorry, man. you know, the the the cha I can't imag like I my circumstances growing up were very different, but different, but different, but um this idea of the home environment being so chaotic and this this this notion that like no one's no one's coming to save me like it's just up to me me me and trying to figure that out as a young person like all on your own with just you know your sister.

Yeah. And then like I mean eventually my mom did come and save us. We ended up moving to Arizona for a year and living with her. Um, and which I just continued the progression of my own disease. But, uh, there was almost a whole year in high school where I was like homeless, like living at friends houses cuz I just like couldn't or didn't want to stay at home. And, you know, it was like at one point my dad owned two houses on this street that God, if he didn't lose those houses, they'd probably be worth, you know, $5 million in total.

But uh yeah, lost one house, then you know, drank the other house away and then we move into apartments and eventually he just like gets his seventh DUI in however many years and he ended up going to jail. So it was just me and my sister living at friends houses, sleeping on floors, um trying trying trying How did you not end up in the system somehow? somehow? somehow? Well, I think we were about to. So, when my dad finally, you know, went away for a pretty long stint uh in jail, my mom just showed up and she was like, "You guys are you guys got to come with me.

Like, this it's it's a wrap here." Were you at Newport High School? Newport Harbor High. Like, for people that don't know, like this is, you know, an insanely, you know, well-healed, privileged, like high netw worth like area, you know, like a lot of people with a lot of money, you know, conservative community. Um, and for you to be, you know, kind of in the circumstances that you were, I would imagine, you know, created some social consternation. consternation. consternation. Yeah. And like I always felt like um like why me, you know, like seeing all of my friends that have all these like kind of picture perfect families and then like I'm just stuck in this household of chaos and abuse and fighting and the cops getting called to my house and wondering if one of my parents is going to go to jail.

like just the chaos of my life. I almost uh yeah, I just a lot of times remember thinking like God like why like why do this to me, you know, like why why do I deserve this? And um I don't know, it turns out like I like in hindsight, I'm like so grateful that um I was able to experience, you know, some uh some hardship early on in my life and it taught me some really valuable lessons. And um as much as, you know, as terrible as alcoholism and drug addiction is, like I really feel like it's made me the person that I am today.

And um yeah, like honestly wouldn't take any of it back. back. back. There is this amazing pipeline from uh you know drug addicts and alcoholics in recovery into you know ultra endurance sports you know and ultra running. It's just like show up at the start line of any ultra you know it's just tattoos as far as the eye can see and you know just it seems like you know there's just an insanely high percentage of people who are you know in recovery. Yeah. And sometimes I wonder it's like did I just become like so desensitized to life just from just all the [ __ ] that I've been through that ultra running is like the most extreme form of running and just anability for me to like feel something.

You know what I mean? If it's hardship or pain or I mean dude some races you can almost experience an entire lifetime of emotions in one single race. So, I don't know. Maybe that's a big reason why I was just so drawn to ultr running. Yeah, I think there's that's that's an interesting lens on it. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I mean, the way that I generally think about it is I believe that addicts are seekers on some level and they're seeking answers to their questions and they're seeking comfort to their discomfort in unhealthy ways.

Uh but ultimately like they're they want what everyone wants. They want they want to feel connected. They want to feel loved. They want to feel safe. Like all of these things and you know drugs and alcohol, you know, are very reliable in providing those things temporarily until they derail your life. But then when you take that away that that hardwired, you know, kind of predisposition for extreme experiences to to feel something, to feel alive, to try to understand yourself in the world. When that gets removed, like you're going to find another way to explore that.

that. that. Um, and ultra running is like right there, like hey, you know, you can go as deep as you want and suffer. you know, on some level maybe it's like, you know, that addict thing like I'm better than everyone else, but I'm also the biggest piece of [ __ ] in the world, you know? It's like, well, ultra running will deliver on both levels, you know, because if you finish a race, you're like this amazing, you know, esteem building sort of situation, but also like like like you're just going to go to the darkest cave you've ever gone to and you're going to experience that level of suffering that on some level maybe you're you you you're kind of looking for, for, for, right?

There's something therapeutic in that. Yeah. Like how do you think about suffering as a teacher? I feel like yeah pain and suffering is my biggest motivator in life to do anything like uh I remember specifically you know finally you know after all the [ __ ] that I went through um overdosing you know getting arrested multiple times uh spending quite a bit of time in jail which is how I did finally end up getting sober. Um, I just like and the one thing that my dad did for me that I like like like was the most valuable thing that he ever taught me was he just like dragged my ass to AA.

And um, while I was like kind of in the worst time of my addiction, he was actually sober for, you know, quite a few years. So there were there were times when you know he had periods of of you know kind of pulling it off and multiple years of sobriety here and there which um came and went but uh I remember you know when I was like just really strung out and really bad. Um the only thing he could really think to do was like I just need to like get this kid in an AA meeting and he would drag me to meetings and I was like I'd be going to meetings high and um and um and um it was yeah I just like wasn't ready but at least it planted the seed for me to know that hey when the stars do align and I do finally have this opportunity where I'm ready and willing to get sober um I know where to go.

And I ended up getting out of jail. Um I spent almost 3 months in there. And you for what? What? You just got busted. Yeah. I mean, I had originally gotten arrested for possession with intent to distribute cocaine and uh marijuana, two separate charges. Uh and then uh was, you know, ended up getting put on formal probation for multiple years. And I just like could not give a clean drug test. Like I failed just dirty drug tests over and over and over. And then uh finally my probation officer was like, "Dude, this is like the 10th one.

Like you're out of here. You're going in for a 90-day violation." Which was the the best thing to happen to me. Like I just needed to be removed from the situation that I was in. The people that I was in, I was just strung out. And I had, you know, I tried detox and um had little brief stints, but I just like kept going back to the same thing. and I needed like a long extended period of time of being locked up away from everyone to like finally get my [ __ ] straight and um like just physically detox.

So, uh yeah, spent 3 months in like a very lowsecurity uh jail facility in Orange County. And then as soon as I got out, I just like got super plugged into AA and I just like it was every day I was going to meetings. And um I got really lucky that like a lot of my friends that you know I was out there using and running and gunning with like a lot of them were like kind of like ended up getting sober right around the same time.

And I just had like a super like awesome support group and I like feel so lucky. I just got so plugged in with this like this community down in Orange County. And Orange County is like weirdly a hub for AA. Like there's tons of, you know, rehabs and treatment centers. It's like almost kind of like a mecca for uh recovery and uh Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. So, uh yeah, I just like really dove in head first to uh the program and working the 12 steps and um yeah, you know, I I my life did start to get better, but uh it was, you know, like anything, you know, you become complacent and um going back to like the pain, pain was the biggest motivator thing for me.

Like it really took me um to get to a point where I was like sober but like still completely miserable to actually like really invest into working the 12 steps and actually applying them to my life. And then you know once I finally do work the 12 steps and I start working with other people and taking them through the steps and like that's when like I really started to make serious progress in my life and start to feel the benefits and like right around the same time I like randomly ju just discover running.

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For better or worse, we are in this hyper optimization focused culture that tells us if we're not fully dialed in, then there's something wrong with us. Which in my opinion is kind of a form of violence given how challenging life is already. how difficult it is to just strike a healthy balance between work, family, and all our grown-up responsibilities. And the expectation that somehow amidst all of this that we're supposed to stay balanced, present, and grounded. I know that I need support. And therapy is one way I get it, which has been crucial in managing all the pressure.

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Prioritize your well-being with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/bridge. It's an interesting kind of conundrum when you know you need to change, you know, it's inevitable that at some point you're going to have to like, you know, give up this thing and start doing something else. Um, but that's not enough to get you to do it. You know, there is something very specific about pain and suffering that uh gives birth to the willing. It's all about willingness. It's like it's you know what you need to do, right?

But are you willing? And until you're willing, willing, willing, you're not going to make that choice and you're going to continue to slide and your life's going to get worse until you reach that point where enough's enough, as we say. Um, you reach that point in jail. But willingness is such a fickle kind of energy. Like you can't you can't will somebody to be willing and you can't just decide to be willing. It's almost like this weird thing that that descends down on you when you're in enough pain and gives you this burst of energy that you didn't have 5 minutes prior to finally do that different thing.

And I think for me I was just like quite literally like beaten into a state of willingness. Like I share about this in meetings all the time. uh the you know weeks and months leading up to the day that I got sober, like truly every single day felt like the worst day of my life. It was like Groundhog's Day on repeat of just like just the worst day ever. And um yeah, when you know, the cops showed up in my door, you know, like they always do when you're on probation.

They just show up at any given time. And they showed up one morning and I was like, this like this is it. This is my one opportunity. like I know they're taking me to jail, so like I'm just this might be my only shot to get sober. So I was, you know, quite literally beaten into a state of willingness and reasonleness and uh I, you know, had a moment of clarity where I saw that like, hey, this might be, you know, where the stars align and I might only have this small window of opportunity to like actually get sober.

fleeting moments cuz you know if you don't act in that moment it will pass and you'll be back to your [ __ ] you know and I think for people that don't really understand addiction addiction addiction uh they struggle with this idea of like well clearly you know you're going down the wrong path here look at your dad like there's the blueprint this is where you're headed how come you can't just make this different choice you know but you're stuck in this cycle of you know compulsion and you craving and reward that is so cunning, baffling, and powerful.

It's near impossible. It's, you know, when people take hits at AA and 12step all the time, like, oh, it doesn't really work. The the sobriety rate is very low and all of that, and they don't, they miss the fact that like, you know, when somebody relapses or goes out, it's like, oh my god, somebody drinks. Like, no. What the miracle is that like all these other people didn't drink today. You know, it is it's it's so it's so pernitious and challenging to overcome and it requires those moments of clarity where willingness descends and you realize you have this brief moment of time to like make that different decision and set something in motion that's going to move your life in a new direction.

direction. direction. And then through working those steps, you know, you end up developing a relationship with God. and you know getting I mean the byproduct is like I've just like been gifted this like super amazing life now that I like never thought would have ever been possible. It was just it looked like scorched earth just all around me. It's pretty crazy the the arc. And so that was 2012, right? Mhm. Yeah. I got sober April 6th of 2012. So I'll have 14 years um on April 6th.

Yeah. 6th. Yeah. 6th. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. And like Yeah. I just like I can't really take any credit for it. It's all like what God has done for me and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and like all the people around me. Like I could go on and name a hundred different people that like have done so much for me in my life, but I just like quite literally like grew up in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and like finally for the first time had like like like real uh men around me who were like solid role models and like learned valuable life skills and how to live a life.

like I I had no skills of any kind. I wasn't good at anything. I had nothing going for me. And um all I do is like show up to these meetings and like listen to people talk and like get my handheld as I figure out how to be be a normal human being, you know? Yeah. And you had no solid stable male uh role model in your life up until then? then? then? I mean, it's like so weird. Like my dad was he's like been around my whole life but not really ever super present and like I really don't feel like I even know the guy.

I mean, especially in the last, you know, seven or eight years that we've been estranged. Like, I haven't spoken to him in uh many, many years. And years. And years. And yeah, he's, you know, chosen a life uh that that that I can't be a part of, you know, that involves drugs and alcohol and crime and mental institutions and jails and hospitals and uh a life that doesn't involve his family, which, you know, is is fine. That's it is what it is. And as much as it hurts, it uh I don't know.

It's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to find some level of compassion because he's the you know, he's the alcoholic who's out there, you know, sick. know, sick. know, sick. Yeah, totally. And like I I don't I don't ever like harbor any resentment or anger towards him. I mean, obviously, you know, it's like that does no one any good is like the resentment is only killing me. But like, yeah, I just like genuinely like feel sorry for people who are just like suffering and just cannot get it cuz I've I've been there.

I like I've so badly wanted to just stop getting high and stop drinking and stop using, but just not being able to like for the life of me. So, um yeah, I just, you know, I just really feel for um him and I still do love him, but I just have to separate myself and like for my own u mental health and sanity. It's just like I've I've done this dance over and over where, you know, I let him back in and give him an inch and he takes a mile and just it chaos ensues and it's just Yeah.

It's uh it's just really complicated and messy, you know. So, you're this skater kid basically, right? Like I'm trying to imagine, you know, you in high school. Uh like like punk rock, like what are you listening to? Like who are your influences? Like what are you thinking about? And then let's like lead it up into like how you get introduced to running. I think I was just really I I mean super into into into skating and surfing was always like my two loves. Um, I'm like decent at both.

Never good enough to be uh ne never good enough to end up being on the surf team or skating in contests or anything, but uh just always really loved uh you know both surf and skate culture. And you know growing up in Orange County, Costa Mesa, like all of the big brands are there like Vulcram, Quicksilver, Ruka, Hurly, like you name it. Um, that's kind of where surf and skate Mecca was. So, you know, being a kid, I just like loved going to the skate park and loved going to the beach and surfing and that was like kind of my whole life and idolizing dudes like Andy Irons and Kelly and uh skaters like all of the Baker guys and Tony Hawk.

I mean, I dude I was just my friend sent me an old photo of uh me and a bunch of us little Groms as kids and I'm like in every single photo I'm wearing like a Tony Hawk shirt. Uh-huh. Um, and like old Vulcram shirts, which is funny, but that was just like me. I just just just I just was a little skate surf rat. Um, and what was the vision like? Do you had did you have an idea of what you wanted your life to be or were you thinking about like what you might want to do?

Not really. I mean, I don't know. I think there was just so much going I think there was so much going on at home that I like really didn't have an opportunity to envision a life for myself. Um, and like I remember being like a little kid, like I mean young, like almost a toddler and like wanting to be a trash man just cuz I saw the trash. Trash. When you're in high school and things are going sideways, it's like, "Hey man, like I don't, you know, I I'm not really seeing like a path." Oh, wow.

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. For myself, so I'm just going to enjoy. I mean, I got good grades in school and I just like knew I was never going to make it to college. like there was just no way that I was going to be able to financially be able to afford or pull it off or even just like apply for a loan or a scholarship. Like I just like that was it was never even like in the cards for me. I was just like quite literally trying to survive.

Like I was, you know, homeless in high school. So I knew that Wow. Wow. Wow. It Yeah. I was just like trying to survive, just barely making it, you know. know. know. So you're plugged into meetings post 2012. you're dialed. Uh you're starting to put the, you know, pieces back together and figure your life out. Uh I get a job at a surf company. Is that what you what you what you Yeah. No, I worked at early for uh until like this past year, right? Yeah.

Up until just last year, November. Um left. I was there for almost 15 years. But yeah, just started off at the company uh sweeping floors and uh cleaning screens uh like t-shirt printing screens and um doing artwork with uh a friend of mine and you know weird little marketing activations. But yeah, it was just like kind of like a hangar around Grom and worked my way up through the company. um going from, you know, just a 1099 freelance contractor, just contracted help to getting brought on to the graphic design team and then designing t-shirts and board shorts for a couple years and, you know, acquiring more skills and hunting my craft and then becoming an apparel designer for multiple years after that.

Like I, you know, at the beginning when I first got brought on, like I was a Nike employee at the time. Hurley was a uh the surf category for the Nike organization. So was, you know, affiliated with Nike and but this is like your college for learning how to be an effective storyteller and kind of public facing content creator. content creator. content creator. And it was cool being part of like such a big like welloiled kind of corporate machine. Like I saw the inner workings of like how focused uh Hurley and the Nike organization was on brand and storytelling.

And we'd have these big town hall meetings where it was like it felt like almost like a broken record on repeat. It was like storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. And um yeah, just like getting to work with like John Florence, you know, um he was, you know, a huge part of the brand. And I'm still super tight with uh a lot of the the Hurley family that's uh gone on and started Florence Marine next John's company. Um, so yeah, just being really plugged in with very talented and creative people and um, just kind of being brought up and learning from the people around me.

But it'd never been like a quote unquote like a athlete like an athlete as we understand an athlete like in high school. You didn't play sports or anything like that. No, I I played I played water polo for like the first two years of high school and was acquired when you live in in in Newport. Yeah, I mean I just like I always kind of like loved the water and like wasn't good enough to make it on the surf team. So like what's the only other water sport that you can do?

It's like water polo and swimming. And I was just like really small um in the beginning of high school. Uh and you know was never going to make it onto the varsity team. So my sophomore year uh they swim season was coming and I was like I don't want to go through the hell of just being on swim team during swim season. was just like so grueling and so much like hard work, which is funny that I was like hilarious avoiding hard work. So, I was like, I'm just going to and then I ended up getting recruited by the uh the coach of the wrestling team.

So, I ended up wrestling my sophomore year of high school. Got brought on straight to the varsity team cuz they didn't have a 103 pounder. So, I was like the lightest weight and already was in pretty good shape just from being on the swim team. And so, yeah. So, you weren't like a total burnout in high school then? No, but I was like the worst player on the swim team and the water polo team. And then, you know, because I'm so small in this weight class where I'm like because I have decent cardio, I was, you know, immediately put onto the varsity team and like had, I don't know, I had some wins, but mostly losses.

Like I wasn't a gifted or talented athlete, but I did always have the ability to like put in the hard work. Like yes, I wasn't like genetically gifted to like ever get big or be talented or have any skills in any sports, but I always was able to work hard if that makes sense. Yeah. But not on the cross country team or the track and field team. I Yeah. I didn't I didn't even ever run once until I was 25 or 26. Yeah. Where is that first touch point with running?

with running? with running? So, uh once I once I got a job at Hurley, um Hurley, um Hurley, um they had a skate park in one of the warehouses. They had this huge campus like I'm probably 10 or 15 buildings and one of the buildings was this dedicated warehouse that was just a skate park in it. it. it. So, uh, you know, I I get a job there. Um, I'm, you know, a couple years sober. You know, my life's starting to get good. I'm starting to piece things together.

I'm starting to do things that I had, you know, completely given up, like surfing and skate. Like, I'm getting back into skating. I'm getting back into these things that I love doing. I got this nice crew of people. Like, we're going to the skate park at night. Like, I'm getting better. I'm, you know, progressing and uh, you know, when you're skate, skating is one of those sports where like you do it like you're just bound to get injured and um, I ended up breaking both of my ankles like a year apart.

Um, so had a couple injuries and at the time I was living with a friend of mine who uh, he was just like a he was like really into the gym. He was a bodybuilder, so he was just really into the gym at the time. And I was in a boot for a while and or a cast and then a boot for a while. And I just got like really out of shape. And at the time, I was just, you know, eating junk food and smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, just na just drinking coffee, smoking sigs, like the only two vices that I have.

And uh, you know, over that year just like got really out of shape and just felt like [ __ ] uh a lot. And once I started to finally be able to move around and walk again and felt like I got to the point where I could work out, my roommate at the time was like, "Dude, just come to the gym with me. Like, it's the best investment in your health. Like, just I'll show you what to do. Just we're going to just work out every single day." So, started going to the gym with him and um that was great.

And I love lifting. I just like wasn't really trying to be a bodybuilder like he was. And I found myself going to the gym and I would just like gravitate to the cardio section and the the stair climber was actually like my entry my gateway into uh running and then ultra running. But I would just like go to the gym and just do an hour on the stair climber and that was like all I would do. And then after a while at that point just go being on the stairs like my ankles were still like just too messed up to be able to run at that point.

And then I remember one day trying to go for a run on the treadmill and then I was like, "Oh, this feels good." And then I, you know, started running on the treadmill and then doing the the stair climber and the treadmill. And then eventually I found myself just going to the gym to only run on the treadmill. And I'm doing this for, you know, a couple weeks or a month. And I'm like, why do I have this gym membership if I'm just going to run on the treadmill?

Like I can do this outside. And then uh yeah, just started running outdoors. And um I like I never really enjoyed or liked running, but when I finally started doing it on my own, like we always had to run for wrestling and I mean even water polo and swimming, they would have us run and soccer and baseball and sports that I played as a kid. Running was always involved, but I just like never really thought that I liked it. And it wasn't until I started running on my own and like doing this thing that was like very easily and rapidly producing like tangible results and progress for me.

I think that's when I was like, "Oh, this is like something that's hard. It makes me feel good." And I'm like getting these like small little wins. It was like the first time in like so long in my life where I was like actually felt like I was starting to make progress and I was I was winning even though I was just like completing a 5 mile run. Like that was a win for me or like running a mile uh at 8 minute pace. Like that was a win.

Like those things were so hard. And um um um yeah, I just uh somewhere along the line just like fell in love with running and just ran more and more. I remember I'd do like an hourong run and be so wrecked I couldn't run for a week after. But just kept with it and every time I'd run I'd try to, you know, either run a little bit further or run a little bit faster and just continued to uh push myself and uh at one point was like I just did I just ran 10 miles without stopping.

like I could probably like sign up and train for a marathon. And uh signed up for my first marathon in 2019, OC Marathon, and the rest is kind of history. history. history. 2019 was your first marathon. Like that was not that long ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When did you realize that you were actually good at this? Was it that first marathon? marathon? marathon? I think it was that first marathon. I um after like talking with some people and I I dude, I knew nothing going into it.

I just had heard from some people that maybe 4 hours is a decent time goal, which for the average person, I think 4 hours is a very very good and very achievable goal. Um, and then I ran 3 hours and 27 minutes. Like I ran, you know, over 30 minutes faster than I was even expecting even expecting even expecting and without knowing what you were doing. Yeah. Without knowing what I was doing. I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And then, And then, And then, you know, signing up for another marathon.

I think my second one was LA Marathon. ran a 306. You know, it it was like that kind of kept happening to me where I'd have this maybe like just too conservative goal for myself and I would just blow my expectations out of the water and then that carried on into uh you know my third marathon I ran uh 248 or 247 or something. Boston qualified got like 14th or something at the race. Um, and then you know my first ultra I mean it was a super competitive uh ultra race 50k broken arrow sky race.

I I I it wasn't I mean in the grand scheme of things wasn't that good of a performance. But I did beat all of my other friends that I was doing it with who were like fairly accomplished runners and had been, you know, running ultra races and running for a long time. And I'm like brand new in this thing. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm like actually surprising myself at every turn." And um it really wasn't until uh I ran my first 50 mileer, which was in 2020, the end of 2022 or 2023.

And I signed up for this race, Saddles 50 mileer. It's in Arizona. It's a Satisfy sponsored race. Michael Verstique puts it on and I was out there just hanging out and they were like, "Hey, we got a bib for you if you want to run." Uh, just the night before the race and I was like, I don't really have any nutrition or electrolytes or anything, but I, you know, I got my vest and, you know, there's some like old expired gels that are like in this like Tupperware thing.

I'm like, I could just pee somebody. I'll just run the race for fun. and um ended up jumping into the 50 mileer the next morning and ended up winning which was like was like was like the and then after that I was like okay like there might be something here and you know I'm really am starting to feel um the success um that I'm having and I was like I'm just like really going to lean into this thing like maybe this running thing is my thing you know that I've been looking for for so long like I've I've just never really ever been good at anything and then I find this thing where I'm starting to have a little bit bit of success in and I'm like maybe this is it.

I'm just going to go all in on this thing. thing. thing. So that was it like okay now whether or not this is my thing almost doesn't matter. I'm deciding that it is and I'm going to just focus on it and take all of my you know kind of like uh uh you know uh addict obsessiveness and just like in here. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And did this thing that also not for nothing is pretty good at uh emotional regulation. You know what I mean? like when you're you know like that antsy kind of addicty feeling of like not feeling comfortable in your own skin and like this is pretty good at managing that that that and if you're training super hard during the day it's like I always say it almost feels like you just have exhaust yourself exhaust yourself exhaust yourself you're so exhausted you almost have this like force field around you where like anything that like someone might say to you that might like irritate you or piss you off it just like that stuff just seems to like bounce off you just like more content with life.

It like almost does the same thing that like drugs and alcohol will do for you, you know? So, do people I'm sure they do like say, "Oh, well, you just transferred your addiction. Like you're just you're out of control, Max. Like you're just you're just a dry drunk like with all this ultra running stuff." How do you answer that? that? that? Um, well, I mean, for I mean, for, you know, over 10 years, I was like super involved and plugged in with Alcoholics Anonymous and, you know, have had a sponsor and sponses.

It's not until like maybe the last couple years where I've just I just have been blessed with this path that I just have to go down and my time is very limited and you know I'm doing so much traveling and training that um I haven't been able to like make it to AA and be like super active and involved with meetings in a group uh in a little while. But yeah, I mean I would totally agree like I take everything to the extreme and um running is definitely one of those things.

But at least it's, you know, a healthy outlet that's um become a very fruitful part of my life and brought me so many blessings and so many friends and so many experiences that I never would have been able to experience if it wasn't for Yeah. I mean, it's certainly uh expanding your life aperture, not like narrowing it in the way that drugs and alcohol do. But there is also the the kind of warning signs or the danger zone of making these races and this sport your higher power.

Yeah. And I totally know where you're coming from. And there's something that happens with happens with happens with training and sometimes during races where like I feel closest to God during those times. And um I like have a stronger relationship with God today than I ever did. um being super involved and plugged in with AA. And I don't know if that's just uh a product of, you know, seeing the blessings that he's given to me in my life. But yeah, I'm I'm very cognizant of the fact that like I can't rely on racing and training to be my everything.

I do still have to be um carrying the message and being of service and surrounding myself with um good people who are on like the same path as me and invested in the same lifestyle as me and just like also on the pursuit of bettering their lives and being better people. people. people. So a little over nine months ago, I underwent spinal fusion surgery. And since then, my focus has shifted away from chasing these really big audacious performance goals like I did in the past to now accepting my limitations in this current reality and learning how to build a daily rhythm that actually feels sustainable for where I'm at right now today.

And Whoop, this wearable health and fitness coach that you see right here on my wrist every time you see me, is this amazing tool that gives me insights into all the things that influence how I feel and how I perform, my sleep, my recovery, my strain, and my overall health so that I can better understand how my habits are influencing how I feel. And what's interesting is how these insights translate beyond training. better sleep changes, improve how I show up at work, recovery changes, how patient I am with my family, and when I'm planning for bigger goals like lining up to participate in the New York City Marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday this fall, Whoop helps me stay grounded in what my body needs right now, not what my ego wants it to do or what I used to be able to do.

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When you think about the tools of of sobriety, sobriety, sobriety, how do they inform or how have they made you like a better runner? Like I'm always interested in this relationship between these two worlds, right? Like you come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better, but are pretty applicable as an athlete in the decisions that you make about what's important and where to focus your energy and your time and how to hone your mindset and, you know, kind of push your body.

I think the biggest thing is uh like just knowing that nothing is ever going to be as hard as getting sober. Um that will forever be the hardest thing that I've ever done. And no matter what, like no matter how hard training or how much pain I'm in during a race, like nothing is worse than kicking heroin in jail. So like just knowing that having that in the back of my mind um is you know a big kind of like motivating factor that I can and I am able to do these really hard things.

But um I think more so is just like just like just like just being able to surrender to circumstances and situations that are out of your control, which a lot of ultr running is just like problem solving and dealing with these things that just pop up and are out of your control. and being um being uh you know able to just roll with the punches and um I mean even more so just being a public figure or a so person on social media. I think the tools of AA have helped me navigate this weird world that is social media and, you know, putting my story out online and just dealing with people, you know.

Um, Um, Um, in person it's like it's always great. There's never any issues at races like the community is amazing. I've only ever had good encounters or interactions with people. it's, you know, online where uh there's can be some resistance or uh just like weird [ __ ] that that goes on with people online. And I I that's where I really have to lean on the tools of AA to, you know, not fire back at people online and not make comments, you know, and uh just keep my mouth shut and, you know, take an in take an inventory and admit when I am wrong, when I do something stupid or fire off something, you know, a comment that hurt someone's feelings, like feelings, like feelings, like take a step back, do a tenth step and reflect on like, okay, what is my part in this?

Like where was I wrong? like this is a human being who has real feelings and emotions and like I I just want to keep my side of the street clean and not have someone, you know, with their feelings hurt because of some stupid [ __ ] that I said. So yeah, I I mean I'm, you know, a real person. I'm, you know, am emotional. I struggle with the same things that everyone else does. I'm not perfect, but um you know, being brought up and learning from the principles of AA has helped me be able to like just deal with that [ __ ] and be a man, you know?

Yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned surrender cuz I I think that that's like a key piece in all of this. Um you can't get sober if you're relying on your self-will. You know, you're going to just relapse and relapse and relapse. If you think that you you know, you're going to be able to figure it out all on your own. And it's only when you get to that point where you are willing to like let go, let people in and you know understand that you know you're not the center of the universe and don't have all the answers and that you're more powerless than powerful and in the context of you know running ultras ultras ultras in a state of surrender.

There's too many variables. It's too long. The distances are so mindboggling. you have no control over the elements or the other competitors. I mean, that's true in any athletics, but um the only way you're going to be able to get from the starting line to, you know, 240 miles later is if you are, you know, in that in that state of like surrender. Like, okay, God, like, you know, help me get from here to there. and like I don't know what's going to happen, but you know, I'm not going to be able to do it completely under my own power.

And I certainly have no control over all the things that might happen along the way. And to like always remain being teachable, you know, like always trying to learn the lessons and a lot of these races like the I'm just like I'm learning as I'm going. Like I'm still very new to this thing. Even the 200 mile distances are a very new uh world within ultra running. So, uh, yeah, just trying to and it's like a lot of it's uncharted territory and trying to learn from the mistakes that I made.

And I've made so many mistakes. Like I really honestly haven't felt like I've had a good 200 mile race yet. Like I've won one, I've DNFed another and had, you know, a decent podium performance at another race, but I like I really feel like I haven't cracked the code at that distance. I've had some Dude, you've only been doing this a couple years. couple years. couple years. No, you're still like so new. I mean, the idea of these 200 mile races is new. You're new to it.

You're also super young, and the other people that are excelling at those distances are like 20 years older than you and have been like running for, you know, most of their lives. lives. lives. Sure. Yeah. But I I mean, it's I think it's more so just all of us like learning together on this new thing, you know, like what's the brand new what's the best way to handle sleep in a 200 mile race, you know, like no one's really cracked the code or figured it out.

So um just yeah me I always try to like take valuable lessons and learn from these races and be able to apply it into future races. So uh yeah that's just like another principle of you know the program is like learn from your mistakes try not to do it again like be teachable. I mean, I think when I think of the ultra world, like we forget like it's so new, you know, the idea of this being a competitive landscape and to the extent that people are like, well, this is how you train for a 100 and this is how you it's like is it, you know, like I I think like we're at the very beginning of trying to figure out, figure out, figure out, you know, what the best way to approach these kind of races are.

And that's what makes people like David Ro so interesting. You know, like they're trying different things and like who knows what's what's going to, you know, pan out or not. But like he's sort of approaching it like a scientist in a lab and I think that's and and sharing it transparently which I think is really so much respect to him for sharing everything publicly. It's like and that's like in the at the 100 mile range. Uh but you know then you get to the like I think people equate these things like oh 50 100 200 it's all the same.

Like these things are wildly you universes apart and uh and I think when it comes to like the distances that you're excelling at like this is just you know the wild west right now. Yeah. I was uh out to dinner the other night with some friends and Molly Sidell was was there and I never met her before people don't know she won the bronze medal in the uh in the Olympics in in 2020 and she's now like you know like moving into the ultra world and to me that's super exciting like I think that when you start to see you know Olympic gold Olympic medalists and like you know people who are like you know in the in the top top top of the the kind of international marathon world uh decide to move into the ultra world, we're going to see a lot of innovation and a lot of records being broken because they're bringing you know kind of an elite elite elite um legacy into a world that's really untapped right now.

Yeah. And she I mean props to Molly just earning a golden ticket I at I think her second ultra race ever. So, she'll be in Western States, the most competitive 100 mileer in the US this year. Yeah. Um, super excited for her. I' I've met her um before. She's an amazing human being. And yeah, I would love to see more of those kind of higher profile people coming into I mean, it's great for the sport and uh trail running is booming. I mean, maybe I'm biased, but I feel like trail running and ultra running is growing at a faster rate than maybe any sport out there right now.

Yeah. What do you foresee for the future near and far in the sport? Just the sport generally, not yourself in it, but like where is this heading in terms of this where is this heading in terms of like is the popularity going to continue to grow? Do you think like you're going to see more? I mean, it seems to me like there's going to be more money coming in. We already see what happened with with UTMB. Like that's going to continue. And continue. And continue. And as soon as there's more money there, more of the Molly Sidels's are going to like if you're on the world marathon circuit and you're coming in, in, in, you know, eighth or 10th in these races consistently, you're like, I don't know, 10 minutes off the pace or whatever.

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Like why not move like the the ultra world is like wide open for you? Yeah. And I think, you know, as more eyes grow on the sport, you know, the brands are going to be forking over more money. um we will get some of those athletes that are crossing over and we're starting to see it. Um so I envision the sport just growing as a whole. Um it's really is a very accessible sport like you can essentially do it in so many different places in the US and throughout the world.

I mean it's a worldwide sport. Um, Um, Um, and yeah, I think also just a lot of people just really um crave and have a desire to do hard things. And there's nothing more simple and challenging than just running really far. Yeah. All you need is a pair of shoes, too. And now with these like you know these these these backyard ultras and all these you know unique formats that are popping up and people designing their own challenges like there's no barrier to entry to this at all.

And then like how I mean there's you know the monster 300 there's a 300 mile rate like what are we going to s I mean I've heard people talking about and I mean it does kind of exist in this whole other world talking about doing 500. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean even so you can go you can race the John Mir trail or you know the Pacific Crest Trail like doing FKTs. Like that's a whole another world of ultra running that there's almost like there's people who do that that don't even really run races.

They just are focused on setting records and setting times on like super long distance. I mean an FKT can be any little route that's you know 20 miles up up to you know the Pacific Crest Trail that's 3,000 miles. Yeah. The amazing thing about your story is the fact that it's such an unlikely story, like you've been living your whole life with this like reservoir of potential you had no idea about. idea about. idea about. And but for like a couple things that happened, you might have lived your entire life never going to on a run or realizing that you had this capacity.

And when you reflect on that, you can't help but think, well, how many like is this something that is like how many millions or billions of people are walking around with capacities and capabilities that they're not aware of because they never are in a situation or presented with an opportunity to kind of do the math and, you know, like square that equation, that equation, that equation, right? right? right? I think like yeah, if you're a person who's listening or curious about ultr running or just running in general, like maybe just try it, you maybe just like maybe just try it, you know?

Maybe it could end up being that thing for you. And or like maybe it's not even running, maybe it's playing guitar or artwork or what. Like I just I hope that people um just like find something that they're into and just pour everything that they have into it. And I don't I I think about this all the time. Like back when I was younger, I I used to think it was so cool seeing people who just like effortlessly were good at things. And I think now I have so much more respect for people who actually care and people who actually try hard and people who like fail at things over and over and over and they dedicate their lives to, you know, going back to maybe a race or whatever it is.

But like I really like watching and hearing stories of people um just overcoming adversity and really trying hard. Like I thought it was so cool to like not care or not give a [ __ ] about anything, but like nowadays I'm like I love people who like give a [ __ ] and like want to dedicate everything in their life to one specific pursuit. Like I think that is so sick and so cool. When you think about your life now and reflect upon, you know, where you were not that long ago, like it must just be mind-blowing, astonishing.

mind-blowing, astonishing. mind-blowing, astonishing. Yeah. It seems like almost an entire lifetime ago. Like I like I haven't had the urge or the thought of drinking or using in like a very long time. Like I was was was blessed with the gift of um the obsession being lifted like quite a long time ago and it's never came back and I'm super grateful um for that. I think there's something that people say that every 16 years or something like all of the cells in your body uh quite literally are replaced.

though it I I really do feel like it was an entire lifetime ago and my life is so different now that um I you know every year on my sobriety date I do a lot of reflecting and I just try not to get not to forget what it felt like that day before I got sober and like that's something that I always need to remember that um this whole thing really is a daily reprieve and if I you know slip up and make the mistake of putting something in my body that can cause the allergy and the craving of alcoholism, like I'm right back to square one.

And um I don't ever want to go back there again. Like as much as um my life is different today and I have so much to lose, I like I'm really one bad day away from being right back at square one trying to get sober again. And it's so much easier to just stay sober than to try to get sober again. And I don't ever want to have to do that again. What do you say to the person who looks at you and says, "Oh, well, you know, Max is different from me.

Obviously, he's this gifted runner. Um, I can see how he was able to, you know, pull himself up, you know, from his with his bootstraps and change his life and, you know, become this runner, but like I I I don't I don't really see how I'm going to be able to make that change." like what have you learned about uh just the nature of change itself or the the the power that we all have to make in a significant life change? I mean I I felt the same same exact way for a long time.

There's there's no way that you know sitting in meetings listening to people tell their stories it's like well yeah like that's true for you but I'm I'm different you know terminally unique terminally unique terminally unique I'm terminally unique. I you know what what what what you suffer from and what you feel in your head is like just not what I'm feeling and I'm different and um um um just like you know I just would love to be an example like I'm I'm no different than anyone like I'm not talented.

I'm not special. I suffer from the same thing that like literally millions of other people suffer from and um you know there is a solution if you want it um as long as you're willing to do the work. And that's true for getting sober. That's true for um you know getting good at anything like running. It's like if you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve and you do put in the work uh anything is possible.

Yeah. That's the great thing about running. I mean you said it earlier like if you put in the work you see the results and when you start seeing the results then you feel more connected to it. And you know as as we say in the rooms like uh you know self-esteem is built on the shoulders of performing esteemable acts and like going out and run running is an esteemable act on behalf of yourself right you know what I mean the more you do that the better you feel about yourself and then you see that progress and you want to do more these things and it doesn't have to be running it can be whatever you know whatever your curiosity is fascinated by that's almost exactly the inverse of the more I drink the worse my life gets the worse my life gets.

The more I drink and use and do drugs and the more I do drugs, the worse my life gets. So, it's it's exactly that. You don't understand my problems, Max. And when I wake up in the morning, it's so bad that I have to drink, you know, and then and then and then there goes the cycle around and around and around. and around. and around. On a mindset level, I've heard you say like you're, you know, like you're just a a never quit guy, right? like how do you think about mindset and what are some of the ways that you try to um you know foster a growth mindset?

growth mindset? growth mindset? Yeah, the never quit mindset. I mean that's a tough thing. I almost uh invested too much of like my identity into um being someone that's like never going to quit or going to die before I quit. And then when I'm finally presented with a situation during a race where I'm like quite literally about to die, you know, at mile 2 38 of a 250 mile race and I have, you know, and endless amount of problems going on with me and people around me are very scared for me in my life.

Um, and I have to make that hard decision of like letting my ego go and like, okay, this race is over. I'm going to drop. I'm gonna have to quit this race and I'm going straight to the hospital, which is what happened to me at Coca-Cola last year. Um, it's kind of like changed my perspective and um I've kind of let go of the like I'm not like invincible. I'm really not that tough. Like, and and and you know, I'd rather I'd rather just fight another day.

You know, like we all, you know, have these situations and points within races or any part of our life where like today is just not the day. And I've experienced that and I now look back and think like, oh, I was a little bit naive to think that there's never going to be a situation where I'm ever going to give up. But uh I think for the most part like I try not to make quitting an option and I think that just kind of goes back to uh just sobriety.

There was like like drinking and I had to in my head head head make it like absolutely mandatory that I was never going to use again like no matter what. And um with running maybe I just tried to borrow that um philosophy with racing like I'm just never going to quit when in reality like there are going to be situations where you quit. And as much as I would have loved to have gone my entire career never having quit or dropped from a race. It's like I'm doing some of the hardest races in the world.

Like it's bound to happen. Of course, right? So I mean but that binary is helpful especially in the early days like the when you're in the room it's like it's very clear like you you're either sober or you're not you know it's like there's no gray area you know but life is full of grays but when you get into running and you're like okay well I'm going to use that rule that works so well for me in this context and apply it over here there's value in that initially but then as you grow and evolve like you have to you know you have to amend these rules and I think a lot of that just boils boils down to ego you know it all comes comes down to ego.

So when you're when you you mentioned you know doing inventories uh when you are like doing whether it's a daily inventory or more formal inventory like what are the patterns that what are the patterns that continue to to kind of recur that that trip you up that you know that you still need to work on? I think a lot of it just has to do with uh patience, you know, having patience with people. Um, a lot of it has to do with, you know, fear. Like I may react a certain way because I'm just I'm just afraid of people not liking me or, you know, things not working out.

Um, or yeah, just like getting angry over stupid [ __ ] you know? Um I think just like having real human emotions that all of us uh all of us have and like I dude it's like I am so a product of my parents like I see the things that I suffer from are like character flaws that have just been passed down to me and like me being impatient or me you know getting angry or upset or um just all of those things are just a I'm I mean almost a part of my genetics and um at least you know being aware and cognizant of those things and addressing them when they happen and um immediately like trying to figure out okay what's the part that I played in this like where was I wrong um let me you know fix this whether it's you know an apology like I always try to um and it's almost like I am a confrontational person but I will like if anything happens or comes comes up, I will immediately like try to squash it and, you know, fix things like Yeah, I Yeah, I Yeah, I just a human being like everyone else.

Like I have I have I'm not perfect. How's the uh how's the imposttor syndrome going? syndrome going? syndrome going? Oh god. I mean, yeah, that's what surprises people when you because you're very you're you're you talk about it a lot. I don't I think I came up in an era when like self-promotion and self- glorification was like very frowned upon, you know? And I think I don't know, I'm just like so hyper critical of myself. Um, and almost kind of like my own worst enemy. And like another thing with, you know, just [ __ ] that comes at me online, it's like nothing that anyone can say is like any worse than what I actually feel about myself.

I am very self-deprecating and feel like I'm not good enough and I'm not enough and you know that's just you know a pattern of thinking that's just existed within me for a long time and you know a work in progress to feel any different but um yeah the I mean I feel like like like I don't know I I think a lot of it boils down to like I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that maybe don't respect me or my accomplishments or don't want to give me the credit that I feel like I deserve.

And that's okay. You know, I'm like not running the most competitive races in the world. Like, I'm just like carving my own path and doing stuff that intrigues me. And I really actually don't like competing. Like, I don't like the racing. I don't like the competitiveness of it. I just like really crave the challenge. And it's really easy to find the challenges within these races, especially like that super super long stuff. Like you're not racing against anyone else anyway in those races. Dude, I think the Barkley Marathons is the sickest race ever cuz none of the people are racing against each other.

They're racing against the race. It's like no one wins. It's just finishers, you know? Like I I love that. I just really crave the challenge. And um yeah, it's like I I see [ __ ] that people say about me online and maybe maybe I shouldn't even shouldn't even shouldn't even you you keep coming back to this thing. I think that's where your work is. The like finding a way to detach from all of that cuz obviously this is like agitating you, you know, this this this thing thing thing and it has nothing to do with you, you know, it's just it's other stuff, but it's renting a lot of space in your mind.

you know, I'm I'm aware of it and it like, you know, somehow it just always seems to to get to me. So, I mean, but it's it's all good. I mean, I'm I'm grateful for everything. I know uh uh uh I'm just like only getting better. I'm only making progress and I'm like not even close to where my potential could be. So, be. So, be. So, I think you're just beginning. But I think to the extent that you have some degree of imposttor syndrome or have an attachment to being perceived in a certain way like these are these are all human traits obviously but at the same time you have to have you know incredible self-belief to tow the line at a race like Moab and say like you know I'm I'm in the hunt for this thing or you know like I have a chance to win this thing like like like those two things are in conflict with each other.

I mean, this is a very kind of like alcoholic trait, right? Um, Um, Um, and it's interesting how they can cohabitate with each other. Like, I'm an imposter. They're going to come and tell me like, you know, we figured you out at the same time thinking like, I'm going to win this [ __ ] race. You know what I mean? Cuz I'm better than these guys. guys. guys. You know what I mean? It's insane. Like, how does that work? Yeah. I mean, hating yourself, but thinking that you're the goat at the same I mean, yeah.

It's, you know, it's that's alcohol. That's the ism of alcoholism is the the ego and selfobsession and yeah it's you know you know you know it's a blessing and a curse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's the key race this year? What what are you focused on? I'm really excited to go back to Coca-Con and just get a finish out there. I just got so close last year that I really want to cross the finish line. That's like my main goal and objective of that race. But then a couple months after that I'm running Badwater 135.

Badwater 135. Badwater 135. Yeah. Which is a exciting challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you are somebody who does well in the heat. the heat. the heat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is playing your strengths. Some of my best performances and it's pavement. Yeah. It's a road. I'm okay at road running. running. running. Yeah. How are you changing your training to uh to make sure that you're ready for that race? So, I mean, I'm lucky that I live here in Southern California and Death Valley is really only like a 4-hour drive.

So, I'm actually just planning on spending a bunch of time out there. Like, I'm unemployed now. I don't have a job. So, I can quite literally have a job. Yeah. You don't have a Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a corporate job. I mean, this is your job. This is my job, right? Um, imposter syndrome uh again. But uh no, I'm I I just plan on going out there a bunch uh this year and just doing a ton of training out there, especially in the summer once it starts to heat up.

Um but yeah, that's uh that's a really exciting race that's intrigued me for a really long time. I think I first found out about that race watching Sally McCrae win it back in god, what was that, 21, 22? um when I first kind of started discovering ultra races and you know I grew up uh going out to Death Valley and doing camping and boy scout stuff as a little kid out there. Um so just having a you know a connection with that area and then being able to you know race my wind race my way into the race like winning Shawn O'Brien which got me a ticket into AC 100 and then I win AC 100 which got me a ticket into Badwater.

So it's kind of been this cool like progression of races to to get me there. But I do really well in the heat. Um I've actually been working with Satisfy to um help create some heat specific product that will be that I'll be wearing for the I mean it'll be coming out and I'll be wearing it for the first time at Badwater. So um it's been like a really the the response to the Nike ACG like mesh shirt that what's his name wore at Western States last year?

It's it's a bit different. I mean, that's kind of one one item, but this is like a full kit. Um, I mean, when you see people at Badwater, just like how everyone's decked out in white sleeves, uh, you know, I don't want to give away too much of what the product is, like white beekeeper suits. Yeah. Everyone's just all kitted out in everything white just cuz it's so hot and the sun is so harsh. But it was uh it was a really cool opportunity getting to work with them and present them with like hey this is like I live in I live in this area where I'm running all these like super hot races.

It would be really cool and fun to develop some heat specific uh products and you know presented the idea to them. They worked on creating some stuff sent me prototypes. I've been wear testing them. Um and then we were just in uh South America and shot the campaign for for all this stuff. So, it was a really cool like kind of full circle moment and I'll be able to wear and race and use the product at Badwater this year. So, that's been like really fun and exciting.

exciting. exciting. And you're putting the treadmill in the sauna like some of these guys have over the years. I think Harvey Lewis used to do that. do that. do that. So, I have a I have like a a stair climber machine, a stepper stair climber machine in my garage and in the summer my garage will get like 85 to 90 degrees. So, I'll do that. And then I saw D I saw David Ro uh doing all his heatsuit training. So I I just bought like this Tyveck painters heat and cut the feet off of it.

Um so I'll do the stair climber with the heat suit on in the summer. Um that's kind of like one way that I'm doing active heat training, but I'm also like toying with ideas of like do I build like a tent in my backyard and get like a cheap little treadmill or a bike trainer and just throw my bike and some heaters in this thing and be able to do some active heat. I just feel so bad going to the gym and being like that guy in the sauna that's like doing squats or lunges or something.

It's just like kind of obnoxious. So, I'm I'll I'll do the, you know, the passive heat training in the sauna at the gym and then I'll do, you know, the active heat training in the garage. Maybe I'll, you know, do another. But like my whole year this year is very focused on uh like building durability and volume in heat training because all of my races this year, Coconut is t I mean not last year was freezing cold which was a freak year but usually Coconut is a very hot race.

Bad water hottest race in the world and then uh AC 100 right here in the San Gabriel is typically very hot. They did move the race um from August to October um going forward. So hopefully it'll be a little bit more mild temperatures, but I mean last year when I won it, it was over 100° um during the day. So, have you met David Ro? No, I haven't. Oh, you you got to talk to this guy. You guys should you guys should compare notes. compare notes.

compare notes. I'm a fan. Yeah. What is a day in the life of training now that you're, you know, liberated from having like any kind of day job and you can just focus on this? Yeah. I still feel like weirdly like I'm still as busy. Yeah, I got, you know, quite a few things going on in the works where I'm working on um some collabs and doing some freelance stuff and working on building my personal brand. So, as much as I thought that I was, you know, I got let go from my job and I was like, I'm just going to run 200 miles a week now.

Um, didn't didn't really work out like that, nor would that be a smart thing to do. But, um, yeah, my my mornings are typically uh wake up, have a coffee, chill with my dogs. um maybe take them for a run, four to five miles, and then um have a little bite to eat, maybe hop on a call or two, and then uh do a midday run, maybe 10 to 15 miles, so trying to hit 15 to 20 miles a day. Um also, my fiance McKenzie, she's a personal trainer, so I've been getting into the gym with her um quite a bit more.

uh now that you know I don't have to be in the office at 8 a.m. I can you know two to three days a week in the mornings uh go work out with her. Um and then yeah just getting to travel and run pretty much any race that I want anywhere in the world has been super cool and fun and exciting and just last weekend going to Austin Marathon and running Austin Marathon was super fun. Um, so yeah, just kind of getting to do whatever I want and uh really focused on getting all of the training in with a lot less distractions has been really nice.

How many miles did you run the week leading up to the Austin Marathon? Austin Marathon? Austin Marathon? This probably wasn't smart, but I like I didn't really plan on racing the race. I kind of was just going into it that was more like you're there for this brand and it's a bunch of dudes or we're going to hang out. Oh, and there happens to be a marathon. And I haven't been doing a ton of marathon specific training like I'm training for training for training for co on the track throwing down like like intervals.

Are you like like speed work and stuff like that? Are you I I had been a little bit here and there like I I do know that that is still a very important part of ultra train. I I being in the best shape that you can and being as fast as you can is great running shape. So I do uh you know I try to be consistent with throwing in speed work speed workouts and doing longer tempo and threshold workouts um which I kind of had been doing cuz I was toying with the idea of running uh Surf City Marathon which is in Huntington.

It's around the same time as the Austin Marathon, but BPN had reached out and they were like, "Hey, we're I mean they were the main sponsor of the of the Austin Marathon. They were like, "Hey, couple of you athletes like we want you to come out. If you want to run the race, cool. If not, all good." And I was like, "I'll just like jump into the full um use it as a training run for uh Analopee Island 50 mileer, which is another race I got coming up in March." Um but yeah, I didn't even know what I was going to do up until the morning of the race.

Like I was like, should I should I run hard or should I just cruise or should I be like a pacer for like a 24? I thought I was going to run like maybe 245 or something. Um I didn't know what kind of shape I was in. I haven't raced a road marathon in over a year. I mean, hadn't specifically trained for a road marathon or PR in over three years. So I yeah I just ended up showing up to the start line and my friend Matt Lanahan, teammate of mine on Satisfy, he just ran a Olympic trials qualifier at CIM in December and I was out there and during the race I thought it was so cool.

He just he set his watch to time of day mode and just didn't pay any attention to any splits, didn't look at his heart rate, just nothing. just ran what he felt like was sustainable for him on that day and was right there with the lead pack and uh ran his personal best and OTQed. I was like so stoked for him and I thought that was like so sick and cool. So at Awesome Marathon I was like I'm just going to do what Matt did. I'm just going to set my watch to time and day mode and um use this run as just a solid steady hard run workout and um ended up pring the race.

Yeah. Well, that is that is sort of a surrender lesson also. You're like, I'm just here. I'm going to be present for the experience and, you know, let it tell me what it wants to be or whatever. Relax. Relax. Relax. Yeah. And whatever my fitness is today is what it is. So, just, you know, do that. I don't need to overex it. which is the opposite. sort of an antidote to the kind of fitness culture like optimization like obsession that people have like you know with every little metric being dialed in and you know athletes at your level like you have that have that have that connection with your body like you know what it feels like you know what you're capable of and like you don't need to be dependent upon all of these things because there's like intui like there's a there's a integration you know and sometimes it is just better to listen to your body and to run intuitively and just give the best that you can on that day and like the numbers don't really matter.

You must so you must have been happy with a 234. Oh, I was still Yeah, I was I was I had no idea. I you know the only split that I saw was when I crossed the there was a timer at the halfway point and I saw 1174 1174 1174 something and I was like having flashbacks of CIM where I went out too fast and ran, you know, a 116 half and just absolutely blew up in the second half. And Awesome Marathon isn't known for being a PR course.

Like it's 1,000 ft of gain and on like on the day it was like 20 mph. It was like super windy. So the conditions were not ideal. The course was not ideal. And I saw my split at the halfway point and I was like, "Oh no, here it comes. I'm going to blow up." up." up." And you were hanging out with the BPN guys. You're probably like, they're making you like lift weights the day. We were lifting weights the day before. But to get back to your what was my training the week?

So the week before I ran a 146 mile week. Um, you ran 146 miles the week leading before Austin. before Austin. before Austin. Before Austin. Yeah. Just because I was more focused on the 50 mileer that was coming up and I I was like, "Ah, the RA like running the marathon doesn't really matter. I'm probably not going to PR anyway, so I'm just going to I'm just going to keep my volume up and use the race as a hard run workout and um ended up running also 100 miles the week of the race.

So, the race ended on Saturday, so I ended up finishing the week with 100 miles and then this last week I ran another 100 miles. So, I I'm like really just focused on like the ultra training and just keeping high volume and keeping my mileage up and uh building the durability and doing tons of heat. I mean, dude, we were out there sitting in Nick's sauna and the sauna at the BPN HQ and that those are like the hottest saunas in the world like 200° over 200° just absolutely cooking in there.

But, um yeah, it was a really fun and amazing trip and I honestly just had no expectations going into the race. I just kind of sent it for fun and went off feeling. Had a great result. Yeah. Going into the season. Um, what is motivating all of this? What is the source of your motivation? Do you have a sense of of what that is? Like what's what's the animating energy behind all of it for you? I think just the desire to push myself to whatever this potential is that I have.

Um, and just my desire to do hard things. Like, I just love training and I love the process of prepping for a race and I love putting in the work and as much as I don't love a lot of aspects of the competitiveness of races, uh, I do love the adventure of races. Um, races. Um, races. Um, yeah, I think it just really boils down to I just like a challenge. I just like doing hard things and I like pushing myself and I like seeing the tangible results of my hard work which is you know what you can get if you put in the work and race really hard and pour your heart and soul into this thing like the if you put in the work you will get results.

results. results. When are you getting married? June. June. June. And she's like your crew captain right? Like she's the essential team member thing. She's like kind of like my coach, my strength and conditioning coach. I was going to ask you like you don't have a proper coach. No, have you don't have a proper coach. No, but I'm like I'm very obsessed like with uh like I mean training and product and every like I'm always like learning things and I like I just like see like it's pretty easy to see what a lot of elite athletes are doing and um it's really not that hard to research, you know, training philosophy.

And I just like I I do a lot of research and um I just kind of like copy what a lot of people do, you know, and borrow workouts from people. And I I know the recipe and the formula. Maybe I don't have uh a lot of the structure that maybe uh like the day-to-day structure that maybe having a coach would give me, but um I don't know. I I also think it's I'm pretty good at listening to my body and knowing what I need to do.

And you know, someone could lay out a plan for you, but you still need to like be able to show up every day and execute that plan. And I think I'm, you know, I can create a decent plan for myself and just do it on my own. As we're coming to the end here, obviously, you're this incredible avatar example of the power uh of changing your life. like you've made these dramatic changes in your life and it's just this incredible one 180 turnaround. What can you share uh about what you've learned about the capacity we all have to make changes in our lives?

I think everyone has the potential to do amazing things and a lot of times it's just really hard to take that first step um to, you know, start on a path of pursuing, you know, a crazy dream that you might have or um just dedicating everything in your life to one specific thing. Um, I love people who are just obsessed and just truly dedicated to whatever it is. I mean it could be running, it could be surfing or skating or artwork or any other thing. But um I think everyone has the ability to do amazing things, but it's just sometimes a little bit difficult to find what that thing is for you and also to have the knowledge and the awareness the awareness the awareness to really lean into that thing when you do discover it.

um which is kind of just what I've found with this whole running journey. But um yeah, and aside from that, like I don't know, I just feel insanely grateful to grateful to grateful to be able to live this life and share my story and um inspire people. Like that's the most satisfying thing um that I get from, you know, putting out content and running races and telling stories is uh when I hear people say that like, "Oh, this inspired me to lose weight or this inspired me to get into running and I love running and it's a part of my life now." Like that's where I get maybe some of the most satisfaction in my life and something that I'm kind of like most grateful for that I've kind of discovered on this weird crazy journey.

And what is the message that you want to say to say to say to uh uh uh the kid Max who is sitting in a jail cell in 2012 knowing what you know now? Man, just hold on tight. Stick with it. put in the work. As long as you just do the right thing and continue on the right path and try to better yourself, like everything will work out and good things will come. Yeah. I mean, when I reflect on your story, there's just no way that you can script this when you're that kid in jail back then.

If you told that kid like, "Hey, one day, you know, it's like what are you even talking about?" Like so the notion of even like well set a goal and work towards it and this is how it's like it's it's not even that. It's like bigger and more mystical and magical than that. Like by you just doing the next right thing like taking a contrary action and then the next right action after that and repeating that and repeating that your life the trajectory of your life you know starts to alter and then it leads you to these little opportunities that you say yes to and you make these little discoveries and then you wake up one day and you're like winning ultra rate like you're living a life that like you just it it wouldn't even like compute to that So to me what I what I gather from that is like hope and possibility like no matter how far down the path you have you have gone right like there is always the opportunity for hope and possibility if you can just do the next right thing in front of you to do magical things can happen and you're this incredible example of that.

like it's the most unlikely story and yet here you are sitting across from me and in my mind like you're just the very beginning of this you know incredible journey that you're on. you're on. you're on. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And just stay the path focus on today. All we have is today you know so um yeah I'm just going to keep putting in the work and doing my thing and hopefully good things will come. Well, uh, I'm a fan, man. And keep making like awesome, you know, content and docs and all of that.

It really is cool. I really appreciate it a lot. And I think when you do that, everyone else sees it and then they have to up their game. And it's just upleveling the quality and the caliber of uh, you know, what's available to the public to like be inspired and and learn about, you know, these these subcultures and these, you know, ways of life. So, thank you for that. Yeah, man. All right. We'll come back and share more adventures from from the trails, buddy. Sweet. All right.

Thank you. Peace.