How to Design a More Meaningful Life (ft. Dave Evans and Bill Burnett) | The Happiness Lab podcast

Let's be real for a second. The world Let's be real for a second. The world feels pretty overwhelming right now. feels pretty overwhelming right now. feels pretty overwhelming right now. Lots of us are [music] feeling exhausted Lots of us are [music] feeling exhausted Lots of us are [music] feeling exhausted and despondent. We spend our days and despondent. We spend our days and despondent. We spend our days grinding at work and then trying to zone grinding at work and then trying to zone grinding at work and then trying to zone out when we get out of work, which often out when we get out of work, which often out when we get out of work, which often means scrolling endlessly [music] means scrolling endlessly [music] means scrolling endlessly [music] just to unwind. And if that sounds just to unwind. And if that sounds just to unwind. And if that sounds familiar, you might be wondering quietly familiar, you might be wondering quietly familiar, you might be wondering quietly to yourself, "Is this all there is? How to yourself, "Is this all there is? How to yourself, "Is this all there is? How do I feel better when the world feels so do I feel better when the world feels so do I feel better when the world feels so blleh?" blleh?" blleh?" What if there was a way to hit the reset What if there was a way to hit the reset What if there was a way to hit the reset button on how you experience life? To button on how you experience life? To button on how you experience life? To see the world with fresh eyes like you see the world with fresh eyes like you see the world with fresh eyes like you did as a child, when everything felt did as a child, when everything felt did as a child, when everything felt alive, full of possibility, and somehow alive, full of possibility, and somehow alive, full of possibility, and somehow a little magical. a little magical. a little magical. >> The mere fact that anything exists at >> The mere fact that anything exists at >> The mere fact that anything exists at all is astonishing. So just take a all is astonishing. So just take a all is astonishing. So just take a longer deeper look into almost anything longer deeper look into almost anything longer deeper look into almost anything and some wondrousness might be available and some wondrousness might be available and some wondrousness might be available to you. to you. to you. >> Well, in today's episode, the last one >> Well, in today's episode, the last one >> Well, in today's episode, the last one in our series on how to get unstuck in in our series on how to get unstuck in in our series on how to get unstuck in 2026, [music] we'll learn that this 2026, [music] we'll learn that this 2026, [music] we'll learn that this mindset can be within reach. In fact, mindset can be within reach. In fact, mindset can be within reach. In fact, today's two guests will share their tips today's two guests will share their tips today's two guests will share their tips for how to design it. for how to design it. for how to design it. >> Greetings. This is Dave Evans, the >> Greetings. This is Dave Evans, the >> Greetings. This is Dave Evans, the co-founder of the Stanford Life Design co-founder of the Stanford Life Design co-founder of the Stanford Life Design Lab. So glad to be here today with Dr. Lab. So glad to be here today with Dr. Lab. So glad to be here today with Dr. Lorie Santos and my dear partner, Bill Lorie Santos and my dear partner, Bill Lorie Santos and my dear partner, Bill Bernett. We've been teaching life design Bernett. We've been teaching life design Bernett. We've been teaching life design for 20 odd years now. for 20 odd years now. for 20 odd years now. >> Hi, I'm Bill Bernett. I'm a adjunct >> Hi, I'm Bill Bernett. I'm a adjunct >> Hi, I'm Bill Bernett. I'm a adjunct professor at Stanford University professor at Stanford University professor at Stanford University teaching the designing your life series teaching the designing your life series teaching the designing your life series of classes and now the co-author with my of classes and now the co-author with my of classes and now the co-author with my good friend Dave of a new book called good friend Dave of a new book called good friend Dave of a new book called How to Live a Meaningful Life using How to Live a Meaningful Life using How to Live a Meaningful Life using design [music] thinking to unlock design [music] thinking to unlock design [music] thinking to unlock purpose, joy, and flow every day. purpose, joy, and flow every day. purpose, joy, and flow every day. >> You're going to live to hate that long a >> You're going to live to hate that long a >> You're going to live to hate that long a subtitle every time you have to say it subtitle every time you have to say it subtitle every time you have to say it on. [laughter] on. [laughter] on. [laughter] I learned about Dave and Bill's work I learned about Dave and Bill's work I learned about Dave and Bill's work because our professional stories are because our professional stories are because our professional stories are surprisingly similar. Like me, they surprisingly similar. Like me, they surprisingly similar. Like me, they created [music] a class aimed at created [music] a class aimed at created [music] a class aimed at improving college students well-being, improving college students well-being, improving college students well-being, one that ended up going viral. And like one that ended up going viral. And like one that ended up going viral. And like me, they've decided to share the me, they've decided to share the me, they've decided to share the insights from their class widely with insights from their class widely with insights from their class widely with people of all ages far beyond the people of all ages far beyond the people of all ages far beyond the university setting. university setting. university setting. >> We teach you the improv skills to live >> We teach you the improv skills to live >> We teach you the improv skills to live life more fully. Life is an improv. It life more fully. Life is an improv. It life more fully. Life is an improv. It really is this thing you make up as you really is this thing you make up as you really is this thing you make up as you go along, but you can get a lot better go along, but you can get a lot better go along, but you can get a lot better at the making up as you go along. So we at the making up as you go along. So we at the making up as you go along. So we teach a class that starts out with teach a class that starts out with teach a class that starts out with debunking a bunch of dysfunctional debunking a bunch of dysfunctional debunking a bunch of dysfunctional beliefs. You really wonderful things beliefs. You really wonderful things beliefs. You really wonderful things that people often think are true and that people often think are true and that people often think are true and guide their lives but happen not to be guide their lives but happen not to be guide their lives but happen not to be either helpful or even true at all of either helpful or even true at all of either helpful or even true at all of which there are many. Once we get which there are many. Once we get which there are many. Once we get through the dysfunctional beliefs, we through the dysfunctional beliefs, we through the dysfunctional beliefs, we start giving them tools and techniques start giving them tools and techniques start giving them tools and techniques for how to figure out what they want, for how to figure out what they want, for how to figure out what they want, how to meet people can animate that how to meet people can animate that how to meet people can animate that thing in them, how to actually go and thing in them, how to actually go and thing in them, how to actually go and engage with the world and get going. engage with the world and get going. engage with the world and get going. >> And so a core idea of this class is this >> And so a core idea of this class is this >> And so a core idea of this class is this idea of design thinking, which I think a idea of design thinking, which I think a idea of design thinking, which I think a lot of folks don't really know what that lot of folks don't really know what that lot of folks don't really know what that means. Bill, what's design thinking? means. Bill, what's design thinking? means. Bill, what's design thinking? >> Human centered design, now we call it >> Human centered design, now we call it >> Human centered design, now we call it design thinking. It's a way of solving design thinking. It's a way of solving design thinking. It's a way of solving problems that's deeply human and engaged problems that's deeply human and engaged problems that's deeply human and engaged with the problems humans have. And so it with the problems humans have. And so it with the problems humans have. And so it was obvious to me when we started was obvious to me when we started was obvious to me when we started thinking about how our students might thinking about how our students might thinking about how our students might approach building a meaningful life that approach building a meaningful life that approach building a meaningful life that it was a design problem because it was a design problem because it was a design problem because designers make things new to the world designers make things new to the world designers make things new to the world all the time. I was at Apple for seven all the time. I was at Apple for seven all the time. I was at Apple for seven years before Stanford and I worked on years before Stanford and I worked on years before Stanford and I worked on the very first laptops. And when you're the very first laptops. And when you're the very first laptops. And when you're building something that's never existed building something that's never existed building something that's never existed before, you can't just engineer it before, you can't just engineer it before, you can't just engineer it because you don't have any data about because you don't have any data about because you don't have any data about the thing that's never existed, like the thing that's never existed, like the thing that's never existed, like your future. And so it's using human- your future. And so it's using human- your future. And so it's using human- centered design to figure out what's the centered design to figure out what's the centered design to figure out what's the next cool version of you. next cool version of you. next cool version of you. >> I love this idea of the next cool >> I love this idea of the next cool >> I love this idea of the next cool version of you because often when we version of you because often when we version of you because often when we think about designing, we think about think about designing, we think about think about designing, we think about designing something like emphasis on the designing something like emphasis on the designing something like emphasis on the thing, but you've really argued that we thing, but you've really argued that we thing, but you've really argued that we can design ourselves in our own lives in can design ourselves in our own lives in can design ourselves in our own lives in interesting ways. What are some of the interesting ways. What are some of the interesting ways. What are some of the features of design thinking we should features of design thinking we should features of design thinking we should bring in when we're thinking about bring in when we're thinking about bring in when we're thinking about designing our own lives? designing our own lives? designing our own lives? >> Well, it starts with, you know, again, >> Well, it starts with, you know, again, >> Well, it starts with, you know, again, user centered or human- centered. So, it user centered or human- centered. So, it user centered or human- centered. So, it starts with like what does it mean to be starts with like what does it mean to be starts with like what does it mean to be a person? Well, you know, our shortest a person? Well, you know, our shortest a person? Well, you know, our shortest definition is a human person is a definition is a human person is a definition is a human person is a becoming a never-ending story. And so, becoming a never-ending story. And so, becoming a never-ending story. And so, what you're growing into is the further what you're growing into is the further what you're growing into is the further revealed version of yourself. All of us revealed version of yourself. All of us revealed version of yourself. All of us contain more aliveness than when contain more aliveness than when contain more aliveness than when lifetime permits us to live out. I.e. lifetime permits us to live out. I.e. lifetime permits us to live out. I.e. there's more than one of you in there. there's more than one of you in there. there's more than one of you in there. So there is no getting it right because So there is no getting it right because So there is no getting it right because you are way bigger than it when it is you are way bigger than it when it is you are way bigger than it when it is your lifetime. So all of us are only your lifetime. So all of us are only your lifetime. So all of us are only going to express a small portion of the going to express a small portion of the going to express a small portion of the fullness of our humanity. We have fullness of our humanity. We have fullness of our humanity. We have multiple choices in front of us both multiple choices in front of us both multiple choices in front of us both between which of me do I want to give a between which of me do I want to give a between which of me do I want to give a chance to get out on the stage and the chance to get out on the stage and the chance to get out on the stage and the next season of my life and by the way next season of my life and by the way next season of my life and by the way what does the world think might be an what does the world think might be an what does the world think might be an interesting thing for me to be interesting thing for me to be interesting thing for me to be collaborating with other people on. So collaborating with other people on. So collaborating with other people on. So I'm looking for the nexus of those I'm looking for the nexus of those I'm looking for the nexus of those things which is evolving all the time things which is evolving all the time things which is evolving all the time and now oh let's go have some ideas and and now oh let's go have some ideas and and now oh let's go have some ideas and get started and start prototyping what get started and start prototyping what get started and start prototyping what the future of that person might be. So the future of that person might be. So the future of that person might be. So it really does begin with the very first it really does begin with the very first it really does begin with the very first dysfunctional belief is I have to find dysfunctional belief is I have to find dysfunctional belief is I have to find my passion purpose answer thing. No, I my passion purpose answer thing. No, I my passion purpose answer thing. No, I have to find the next one that will be have to find the next one that will be have to find the next one that will be interesting enough to live into the what interesting enough to live into the what interesting enough to live into the what will become after that. So, if you're will become after that. So, if you're will become after that. So, if you're feeling a little off track, [music] feeling a little off track, [music] feeling a little off track, [music] stick around because Bill and Dave have stick around because Bill and Dave have stick around because Bill and Dave have some excellent advice on becoming a some excellent advice on becoming a some excellent advice on becoming a version of yourself that feels more version of yourself that feels more version of yourself that feels more engaged and more alive. We'll learn all engaged and more alive. We'll learn all engaged and more alive. We'll learn all their tips after some quick ads. [music] >> Dave Evans and Bill Bernett are best >> Dave Evans and Bill Bernett are best known for their popular Stanford course, known for their popular Stanford course, known for their popular Stanford course, Designing [music] Your Life, and the Designing [music] Your Life, and the Designing [music] Your Life, and the bestselling book that grew out of that bestselling book that grew out of that bestselling book that grew out of that class. But they've recently put out a class. But they've recently put out a class. But they've recently put out a new book called How to Live a Meaningful new book called How to Live a Meaningful new book called How to Live a Meaningful Life. One of their biggest insights is Life. One of their biggest insights is Life. One of their biggest insights is what's known as the designer's way, a what's known as the designer's way, a what's known as the designer's way, a mindset for intentionally engineering mindset for intentionally engineering mindset for intentionally engineering the life you want. Design is inherently the life you want. Design is inherently the life you want. Design is inherently valuef free except we always try to make valuef free except we always try to make valuef free except we always try to make the next design better, right? We think the next design better, right? We think the next design better, right? We think we can improve the world. So you start we can improve the world. So you start we can improve the world. So you start with wonder. I'm naturally curious. If with wonder. I'm naturally curious. If with wonder. I'm naturally curious. If I'm a designer, I'm curious about the I'm a designer, I'm curious about the I'm a designer, I'm curious about the world and how to make things better. world and how to make things better. world and how to make things better. It's not just how's that work, but oh It's not just how's that work, but oh It's not just how's that work, but oh wow, how amazing is that? I wonder how wow, how amazing is that? I wonder how wow, how amazing is that? I wonder how that works. Right? When we say that works. Right? When we say that works. Right? When we say availability, be available to the availability, be available to the availability, be available to the experiences of the world. That's where experiences of the world. That's where experiences of the world. That's where the interesting stuff happens. Radical the interesting stuff happens. Radical the interesting stuff happens. Radical acceptance like availability plus acceptance like availability plus acceptance like availability plus acceptance is like we always say design acceptance is like we always say design acceptance is like we always say design starts in reality. You got to start starts in reality. You got to start starts in reality. You got to start right here where you are not in some right here where you are not in some right here where you are not in some place where you think you should be place where you think you should be place where you think you should be because you saw it on social media or because you saw it on social media or because you saw it on social media or something else, right? And then being something else, right? And then being something else, right? And then being fully engaged but calmly detached from fully engaged but calmly detached from fully engaged but calmly detached from the outcomes because we know a lot about the outcomes because we know a lot about the outcomes because we know a lot about decision science. You can make a good decision science. You can make a good decision science. You can make a good decision but that doesn't necessarily decision but that doesn't necessarily decision but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get the outcome you mean you're going to get the outcome you mean you're going to get the outcome you want. So be fully engaged in your life. want. So be fully engaged in your life. want. So be fully engaged in your life. be intentional but give yourself some be intentional but give yourself some be intentional but give yourself some grace about the outcomes and then go out grace about the outcomes and then go out grace about the outcomes and then go out in the world and tell your story or in the world and tell your story or in the world and tell your story or create your world. So those mindsets put create your world. So those mindsets put create your world. So those mindsets put together we call it the designer's way together we call it the designer's way together we call it the designer's way but when you put it together it's like but when you put it together it's like but when you put it together it's like approach the world with a sense of approach the world with a sense of approach the world with a sense of wonder be available to the things that wonder be available to the things that wonder be available to the things that are happening root yourself in the are happening root yourself in the are happening root yourself in the reality of the world and then go out reality of the world and then go out reality of the world and then go out tell that story to people because when tell that story to people because when tell that story to people because when you tell the story you're creating the you tell the story you're creating the you tell the story you're creating the experience of the world that you want to experience of the world that you want to experience of the world that you want to have. I love this idea of the designer's have. I love this idea of the designer's have. I love this idea of the designer's way in part because it's not just great way in part because it's not just great way in part because it's not just great for human- centered design or even for human- centered design or even for human- centered design or even designing your life. I think it's so designing your life. I think it's so designing your life. I think it's so useful for navigating all the stuff that useful for navigating all the stuff that useful for navigating all the stuff that can come up in a life. It fits with a can come up in a life. It fits with a can come up in a life. It fits with a lot of the happiness evidence we talk lot of the happiness evidence we talk lot of the happiness evidence we talk about on the show. about on the show. about on the show. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Dave, in particular, I know with this >> Dave, in particular, I know with this >> Dave, in particular, I know with this idea of radical acceptance, you've idea of radical acceptance, you've idea of radical acceptance, you've talked about how you use that to talked about how you use that to talked about how you use that to navigate a really painful time of grief navigate a really painful time of grief navigate a really painful time of grief in your own life. in your own life. in your own life. >> Yeah. You're probably referring to the >> Yeah. You're probably referring to the >> Yeah. You're probably referring to the death of my beloved wife, Claudia. So, death of my beloved wife, Claudia. So, death of my beloved wife, Claudia. So, on March 8th of 2020, she got a terminal on March 8th of 2020, she got a terminal on March 8th of 2020, she got a terminal diagnosis. She beat breast cancer once diagnosis. She beat breast cancer once diagnosis. She beat breast cancer once before 20 years prior. Decided to give before 20 years prior. Decided to give before 20 years prior. Decided to give it a second try. Picked a much nastier it a second try. Picked a much nastier it a second try. Picked a much nastier cancer and she was four ways cancer and she was four ways cancer and she was four ways metastasized and terminal on day one. metastasized and terminal on day one. metastasized and terminal on day one. She thought she had bronchitis. She came She thought she had bronchitis. She came She thought she had bronchitis. She came home with a death sentence. She had six home with a death sentence. She had six home with a death sentence. She had six to 24 months to live. We got nine to 24 months to live. We got nine to 24 months to live. We got nine and she died at 70. She was 69 at the and she died at 70. She was 69 at the and she died at 70. She was 69 at the time. So she died 15 years ahead of the time. So she died 15 years ahead of the time. So she died 15 years ahead of the contract. We had a deal and she broke contract. We had a deal and she broke contract. We had a deal and she broke the deal. You know, I was pretty pissed. the deal. You know, I was pretty pissed. the deal. You know, I was pretty pissed. But the first thing was to frame what is But the first thing was to frame what is But the first thing was to frame what is this? We said, "Okay, well I'm going to this? We said, "Okay, well I'm going to this? We said, "Okay, well I'm going to die." I was going to die before. She die." I was going to die before. She die." I was going to die before. She says, "Now I know when." And so it's says, "Now I know when." And so it's says, "Now I know when." And so it's sad, not tragic, cuz at 70, I've kind of sad, not tragic, cuz at 70, I've kind of sad, not tragic, cuz at 70, I've kind of done everything I need to do. There's done everything I need to do. There's done everything I need to do. There's nothing really missing. She goes, "But nothing really missing. She goes, "But nothing really missing. She goes, "But I'd love second helpings of a couple of I'd love second helpings of a couple of I'd love second helpings of a couple of things before I go." So the mantra for things before I go." So the mantra for things before I go." So the mantra for the next year was second helpings, which the next year was second helpings, which the next year was second helpings, which we didn't get that many of because we didn't get that many of because we didn't get that many of because between COVID and fires and everything between COVID and fires and everything between COVID and fires and everything else was pretty tough. But nonetheless, else was pretty tough. But nonetheless, else was pretty tough. But nonetheless, the whole idea was to decide how to the whole idea was to decide how to the whole idea was to decide how to think about it. Mindset was everything. think about it. Mindset was everything. think about it. Mindset was everything. So I started interviewing widows, people So I started interviewing widows, people So I started interviewing widows, people who I thought had widowed well. So, I'm who I thought had widowed well. So, I'm who I thought had widowed well. So, I'm going to borrow other people's wisdom. going to borrow other people's wisdom. going to borrow other people's wisdom. One of the best pieces of wisdom I got One of the best pieces of wisdom I got One of the best pieces of wisdom I got was from a guy whose wife went through a was from a guy whose wife went through a was from a guy whose wife went through a 9-year death process. He said, "Look, 9-year death process. He said, "Look, 9-year death process. He said, "Look, Dave, don't waste one second thinking Dave, don't waste one second thinking Dave, don't waste one second thinking about how are you going to handle this about how are you going to handle this about how are you going to handle this after she's gone?" Because no matter after she's gone?" Because no matter after she's gone?" Because no matter what you do, since you had an intimate what you do, since you had an intimate what you do, since you had an intimate marriage, it's going to rip your legs marriage, it's going to rip your legs marriage, it's going to rip your legs off. It's going to blow your brains up. off. It's going to blow your brains up. off. It's going to blow your brains up. There's not a chance in hell you're There's not a chance in hell you're There's not a chance in hell you're going to be prepared for this. So, don't going to be prepared for this. So, don't going to be prepared for this. So, don't waste time trying to prepare. And every waste time trying to prepare. And every waste time trying to prepare. And every bit of energy you take away thinking bit of energy you take away thinking bit of energy you take away thinking about that future, you're stealing from about that future, you're stealing from about that future, you're stealing from the present. So lean into doing nothing the present. So lean into doing nothing the present. So lean into doing nothing but enjoy the heck out of the time you but enjoy the heck out of the time you but enjoy the heck out of the time you guys have. And as soon as she's gone, guys have. And as soon as she's gone, guys have. And as soon as she's gone, you can figure that out then. That's you can figure that out then. That's you can figure that out then. That's exactly what I did. It was exactly the exactly what I did. It was exactly the exactly what I did. It was exactly the right thing to do. So I learned a ton right thing to do. So I learned a ton right thing to do. So I learned a ton about grief, but it was all in that about grief, but it was all in that about grief, but it was all in that framework of framework of framework of it just happens to be really painful. I it just happens to be really painful. I it just happens to be really painful. I wonder what the lessons might be. wonder what the lessons might be. wonder what the lessons might be. >> And also just not going away from >> And also just not going away from >> And also just not going away from reality. You mentioned this idea before reality. You mentioned this idea before reality. You mentioned this idea before that you can't design things well if that you can't design things well if that you can't design things well if you're not taking into account the you're not taking into account the you're not taking into account the reality of the situation as crappy and reality of the situation as crappy and reality of the situation as crappy and as terrible as it might be. as terrible as it might be. as terrible as it might be. >> Well, you know, design is an empirical >> Well, you know, design is an empirical >> Well, you know, design is an empirical process. So, if it's empirical, it has process. So, if it's empirical, it has process. So, if it's empirical, it has to work in this place called real. It's to work in this place called real. It's to work in this place called real. It's the only place design works. We can't the only place design works. We can't the only place design works. We can't work with you in the land of should. We work with you in the land of should. We work with you in the land of should. We only do real stuff. And in reality, you only do real stuff. And in reality, you only do real stuff. And in reality, you can make it better. Let me just also can make it better. Let me just also can make it better. Let me just also mention Claudia was an exceptional woman mention Claudia was an exceptional woman mention Claudia was an exceptional woman and her ability to accept you. Radical and her ability to accept you. Radical and her ability to accept you. Radical acceptance isn't about happiness per se. acceptance isn't about happiness per se. acceptance isn't about happiness per se. It's about It's about It's about >> reality, which means radically accepting >> reality, which means radically accepting >> reality, which means radically accepting grief, but Claudia was brilliant at grief, but Claudia was brilliant at grief, but Claudia was brilliant at this. You could imagine a different this. You could imagine a different this. You could imagine a different situation with someone clinging to false situation with someone clinging to false situation with someone clinging to false hope or something else. But uh having hope or something else. But uh having hope or something else. But uh having watched Dave do this, it was both watched Dave do this, it was both watched Dave do this, it was both incredibly tragic and incredibly incredibly tragic and incredibly incredibly tragic and incredibly beautiful in a way that they together beautiful in a way that they together beautiful in a way that they together managed this acceptance a situation that managed this acceptance a situation that managed this acceptance a situation that neither one of them neither one of them neither one of them neither one of them neither one of them neither one of them wanted. So um that was battle testing wanted. So um that was battle testing wanted. So um that was battle testing one of our mindsets for sure. one of our mindsets for sure. one of our mindsets for sure. >> And it's situation right now we're >> And it's situation right now we're >> And it's situation right now we're walking through this with a couple of walking through this with a couple of walking through this with a couple of our significantly older friends where our significantly older friends where our significantly older friends where the guy is going down swinging. I mean the guy is going down swinging. I mean the guy is going down swinging. I mean he's he's not going quietly into this he's he's not going quietly into this he's he's not going quietly into this night. he is rejecting everything right night. he is rejecting everything right night. he is rejecting everything right and he's ruining his life and the life and he's ruining his life and the life and he's ruining his life and the life of everybody around him and it's a of everybody around him and it's a of everybody around him and it's a choice. So choosing well on this choice. So choosing well on this choice. So choosing well on this acceptance thing has an amazing upside. acceptance thing has an amazing upside. acceptance thing has an amazing upside. It really is one of the biggest mindsets It really is one of the biggest mindsets It really is one of the biggest mindsets of all time. of all time. of all time. >> So you all are living it in your daily >> So you all are living it in your daily >> So you all are living it in your daily life teaching students and you give them life teaching students and you give them life teaching students and you give them these incredible tools for designing these incredible tools for designing these incredible tools for designing their lives in wonderful ways but you their lives in wonderful ways but you their lives in wonderful ways but you like me sometimes have the interesting like me sometimes have the interesting like me sometimes have the interesting moment of a student who comes back a moment of a student who comes back a moment of a student who comes back a little bit later on. you know, maybe little bit later on. you know, maybe little bit later on. you know, maybe later in their 20s, and they often feel later in their 20s, and they often feel later in their 20s, and they often feel like my Yale students sometimes feel, like my Yale students sometimes feel, like my Yale students sometimes feel, which is that like they're kind of which is that like they're kind of which is that like they're kind of feeling a little lost, like they're kind feeling a little lost, like they're kind feeling a little lost, like they're kind of feeling like they tried to follow of feeling like they tried to follow of feeling like they tried to follow what you were telling them, but life what you were telling them, but life what you were telling them, but life isn't turning out the way they thought. isn't turning out the way they thought. isn't turning out the way they thought. Bill, tell me about some of these Bill, tell me about some of these Bill, tell me about some of these conversations you had with your conversations you had with your conversations you had with your students. students. students. >> I love meeting students two years out, 5 >> I love meeting students two years out, 5 >> I love meeting students two years out, 5 years out, seven years out. I just years out, seven years out. I just years out, seven years out. I just talked to somebody who was like 15 years talked to somebody who was like 15 years talked to somebody who was like 15 years out and came up and said, "Oh, Professor out and came up and said, "Oh, Professor out and came up and said, "Oh, Professor Bernett, I haven't seen you." So they Bernett, I haven't seen you." So they Bernett, I haven't seen you." So they come back and and often you know I get come back and and often you know I get come back and and often you know I get two reactions. one is um hey I remember two reactions. one is um hey I remember two reactions. one is um hey I remember the class and it's still very helpful the class and it's still very helpful the class and it's still very helpful and in fact even my friends ask me and in fact even my friends ask me and in fact even my friends ask me sometimes and I tell them read the book sometimes and I tell them read the book sometimes and I tell them read the book or whatever and then sometimes they say or whatever and then sometimes they say or whatever and then sometimes they say you know I I used all these tools but you know I I used all these tools but you know I I used all these tools but I'm still my life still doesn't have the I'm still my life still doesn't have the I'm still my life still doesn't have the meaning or the purpose or the impact meaning or the purpose or the impact meaning or the purpose or the impact that I wanted to have particularly that I wanted to have particularly that I wanted to have particularly impact because the genz's all want to impact because the genz's all want to impact because the genz's all want to have a lot of impact and so that was one have a lot of impact and so that was one have a lot of impact and so that was one of the reasons we wrote this last book of the reasons we wrote this last book of the reasons we wrote this last book how to live a meaningful life is that how to live a meaningful life is that how to live a meaningful life is that even after designing a pretty good life even after designing a pretty good life even after designing a pretty good life or career they're still looking for well or career they're still looking for well or career they're still looking for well wait a where's the payoff? Where's the wait a where's the payoff? Where's the wait a where's the payoff? Where's the impact? Where's the meaning? And we impact? Where's the meaning? And we impact? Where's the meaning? And we wanted to go back and look at that kind wanted to go back and look at that kind wanted to go back and look at that kind of step back from the life design idea of step back from the life design idea of step back from the life design idea and really look at more at meaning and and really look at more at meaning and and really look at more at meaning and purpose because our conclusion was they purpose because our conclusion was they purpose because our conclusion was they were looking in the wrong place. And we were looking in the wrong place. And we were looking in the wrong place. And we wanted to give them better navigation, I wanted to give them better navigation, I wanted to give them better navigation, I guess, in that question. guess, in that question. guess, in that question. >> And I think students sometimes get it >> And I think students sometimes get it >> And I think students sometimes get it wrong, especially when they're in that wrong, especially when they're in that wrong, especially when they're in that position of feeling like something's position of feeling like something's position of feeling like something's missing. When I talk to my own students missing. When I talk to my own students missing. When I talk to my own students who are in this position, I often get who are in this position, I often get who are in this position, I often get the sense that they think what they need the sense that they think what they need the sense that they think what they need to do to fix things is to like detonate to do to fix things is to like detonate to do to fix things is to like detonate their life. like I'm going to buy a van their life. like I'm going to buy a van their life. like I'm going to buy a van and I'm going to move across country or and I'm going to move across country or and I'm going to move across country or I'm going to move to a farm. But Dave, I'm going to move to a farm. But Dave, I'm going to move to a farm. But Dave, you both have argued that there are you both have argued that there are you both have argued that there are other ways around this that doesn't other ways around this that doesn't other ways around this that doesn't involve detonating your life. Why is it involve detonating your life. Why is it involve detonating your life. Why is it the wrong path to meaning? the wrong path to meaning? the wrong path to meaning? >> Well, it's not never there. I mean, >> Well, it's not never there. I mean, >> Well, it's not never there. I mean, every now and then I'll say, "Yeah, I every now and then I'll say, "Yeah, I every now and then I'll say, "Yeah, I think you probably should quit and get think you probably should quit and get think you probably should quit and get the heck out of that horrible toxic job the heck out of that horrible toxic job the heck out of that horrible toxic job working for that working for that working for that boss." But that's pretty rare. What it boss." But that's pretty rare. What it boss." But that's pretty rare. What it boils down to is, you know, I'll boils down to is, you know, I'll boils down to is, you know, I'll sometimes talk about the college to post sometimes talk about the college to post sometimes talk about the college to post college shift. I mean, while you're in college shift. I mean, while you're in college shift. I mean, while you're in college, you know, it is about you. It's college, you know, it is about you. It's college, you know, it is about you. It's all about you. And a good day is when all about you. And a good day is when all about you. And a good day is when you heard something you never heard you heard something you never heard you heard something you never heard before. you saw something you never saw before. you saw something you never saw before. you saw something you never saw before. You did something. So life is before. You did something. So life is before. You did something. So life is cool when I'm on a really steep learning cool when I'm on a really steep learning cool when I'm on a really steep learning curve. Well, if you're out in the world, curve. Well, if you're out in the world, curve. Well, if you're out in the world, whether you're in medicine, at the whether you're in medicine, at the whether you're in medicine, at the marketplace, or the military, whatever marketplace, or the military, whatever marketplace, or the military, whatever you're doing, that world is about you're doing, that world is about you're doing, that world is about mastery. And it's not about doing mastery. And it's not about doing mastery. And it's not about doing something for the first time six hours a something for the first time six hours a something for the first time six hours a day, that's called incompetency. day, that's called incompetency. day, that's called incompetency. We don't let you do that to patients or We don't let you do that to patients or We don't let you do that to patients or customers or investors. They actually customers or investors. They actually customers or investors. They actually want people who know what they're doing. want people who know what they're doing. want people who know what they're doing. So I go from this thing where it's all So I go from this thing where it's all So I go from this thing where it's all about novelty to all about mastery. It's about novelty to all about mastery. It's about novelty to all about mastery. It's a huge shift. And that's a longer, more a huge shift. And that's a longer, more a huge shift. And that's a longer, more patient pathway. So sometimes people are patient pathway. So sometimes people are patient pathway. So sometimes people are looking for the but it's not amazingly looking for the but it's not amazingly looking for the but it's not amazingly new every single day. I must be in the new every single day. I must be in the new every single day. I must be in the wrong place. No, you're just thinking wrong place. No, you're just thinking wrong place. No, you're just thinking about the paradigm of life. Wrong. We about the paradigm of life. Wrong. We about the paradigm of life. Wrong. We keep talking about getting more out of keep talking about getting more out of keep talking about getting more out of life, not cramm Oh, I need another life, not cramm Oh, I need another life, not cramm Oh, I need another hobby. I need a bigger thing. I need hobby. I need a bigger thing. I need hobby. I need a bigger thing. I need more. No, you don't need more. You need more. No, you don't need more. You need more. No, you don't need more. You need to get more out of what's already there. to get more out of what's already there. to get more out of what's already there. And so we start teaching people more how And so we start teaching people more how And so we start teaching people more how to live into that life to get more full to live into that life to get more full to live into that life to get more full aliveness from it. And this is the idea aliveness from it. And this is the idea aliveness from it. And this is the idea of really designing for a meaning and of really designing for a meaning and of really designing for a meaning and designing for the right kind of meaning designing for the right kind of meaning designing for the right kind of meaning which means we need to be honest about which means we need to be honest about which means we need to be honest about the kind of meaning that we can design the kind of meaning that we can design the kind of meaning that we can design for and the kinds of meaning that we for and the kinds of meaning that we for and the kinds of meaning that we can't really design for. And so talk can't really design for. And so talk can't really design for. And so talk about the kind of meaning that people about the kind of meaning that people about the kind of meaning that people usually want to get the very big meaning usually want to get the very big meaning usually want to get the very big meaning and why that's different from the and why that's different from the and why that's different from the meaning that you're talking about meaning that you're talking about meaning that you're talking about designing in your book. designing in your book. designing in your book. >> It's a design book not a philosophy >> It's a design book not a philosophy >> It's a design book not a philosophy book. So we don't try to answer the book. So we don't try to answer the book. So we don't try to answer the meaning of life. The big question you meaning of life. The big question you meaning of life. The big question you know what's the meaning of life? Is know what's the meaning of life? Is know what's the meaning of life? Is there a god? Blah blah blah. That's not there a god? Blah blah blah. That's not there a god? Blah blah blah. That's not a designable question. But getting more a designable question. But getting more a designable question. But getting more meaning out of life is a designable meaning out of life is a designable meaning out of life is a designable question. And this idea of you know question. And this idea of you know question. And this idea of you know getting more out of not packing more getting more out of not packing more getting more out of not packing more into first of all am I going to change into first of all am I going to change into first of all am I going to change the world? Probably not. And that's a the world? Probably not. And that's a the world? Probably not. And that's a good thing to aspire to. But if that's good thing to aspire to. But if that's good thing to aspire to. But if that's the only egg in your meaning basket, boy the only egg in your meaning basket, boy the only egg in your meaning basket, boy are you at risk. And so first thing you are you at risk. And so first thing you are you at risk. And so first thing you got to get beyond impact and then got to get beyond impact and then got to get beyond impact and then becoming fully human means I'm not just becoming fully human means I'm not just becoming fully human means I'm not just making a difference but I'm also living making a difference but I'm also living making a difference but I'm also living more fully. And so the key thing we do more fully. And so the key thing we do more fully. And so the key thing we do is we try to give people, you know, more is we try to give people, you know, more is we try to give people, you know, more food groups, not just the meat of food groups, not just the meat of food groups, not just the meat of impact, but the vegetables of wonder and impact, but the vegetables of wonder and impact, but the vegetables of wonder and the beverages of, you know, flow. And so the beverages of, you know, flow. And so the beverages of, you know, flow. And so we try to give people a couple more we try to give people a couple more we try to give people a couple more crayons in the box to mix the metaphor. crayons in the box to mix the metaphor. crayons in the box to mix the metaphor. >> So it sounds like we're not going after >> So it sounds like we're not going after >> So it sounds like we're not going after the meaning of life. We're going after the meaning of life. We're going after the meaning of life. We're going after meaning in life. And a thing that we meaning in life. And a thing that we meaning in life. And a thing that we need to radically accept to do that is need to radically accept to do that is need to radically accept to do that is that we need to understand how tiny that we need to understand how tiny that we need to understand how tiny sometimes the meaning in life buckets sometimes the meaning in life buckets sometimes the meaning in life buckets are. And I think this gets us to this are. And I think this gets us to this are. And I think this gets us to this idea of the scandal of particularity. idea of the scandal of particularity. idea of the scandal of particularity. Dave, do you want to explain what this Dave, do you want to explain what this Dave, do you want to explain what this is? is? is? >> Yeah. So scandal particularity is a >> Yeah. So scandal particularity is a >> Yeah. So scandal particularity is a philosophical idea. Actually started as philosophical idea. Actually started as philosophical idea. Actually started as a theological idea by Walter Bugamid. a theological idea by Walter Bugamid. a theological idea by Walter Bugamid. But what it really boils down to is it But what it really boils down to is it But what it really boils down to is it turns out turns out turns out the ultimate is only accessible in the the ultimate is only accessible in the the ultimate is only accessible in the particular. To put it differently, the particular. To put it differently, the particular. To put it differently, the sublime is actually found in the sublime is actually found in the sublime is actually found in the ridiculous. Beauty, truth, love, ridiculous. Beauty, truth, love, ridiculous. Beauty, truth, love, communion, unity, these lovely things we communion, unity, these lovely things we communion, unity, these lovely things we all aspire to. And when we experience all aspire to. And when we experience all aspire to. And when we experience them deeply, we kind of go, "Oo, that's them deeply, we kind of go, "Oo, that's them deeply, we kind of go, "Oo, that's really it." You know, you see that really it." You know, you see that really it." You know, you see that amazing sunset and everybody kind of amazing sunset and everybody kind of amazing sunset and everybody kind of goes, "I want more of that. That's what goes, "I want more of that. That's what goes, "I want more of that. That's what I was made for." And so that ultimate is I was made for." And so that ultimate is I was made for." And so that ultimate is beckoning to all of us all the time. But beckoning to all of us all the time. But beckoning to all of us all the time. But it turns out it only arrives in small it turns out it only arrives in small it turns out it only arrives in small partial chunks. They're all essentially partial chunks. They're all essentially partial chunks. They're all essentially reflections of that fullness. They're reflections of that fullness. They're reflections of that fullness. They're not full embodiment of it. Every one of not full embodiment of it. Every one of not full embodiment of it. Every one of those experiences those experiences those experiences of something wonderful, frankly, it of something wonderful, frankly, it of something wonderful, frankly, it leaves you wanting more. Like, you know, leaves you wanting more. Like, you know, leaves you wanting more. Like, you know, that was a really great kiss, but it that was a really great kiss, but it that was a really great kiss, but it stopped too soon. You know, you can stopped too soon. You know, you can stopped too soon. You know, you can never have all of it. So, the scandal of never have all of it. So, the scandal of never have all of it. So, the scandal of particular is it's kind of scandalous particular is it's kind of scandalous particular is it's kind of scandalous that these wonderful things only come in that these wonderful things only come in that these wonderful things only come in these little cupcakesized bits. You these little cupcakesized bits. You these little cupcakesized bits. You know, that little tasting thing they know, that little tasting thing they know, that little tasting thing they give you at Costco. You know, it's like, give you at Costco. You know, it's like, give you at Costco. You know, it's like, where's the rest of the pizza? No, that where's the rest of the pizza? No, that where's the rest of the pizza? No, that was a really good bite. And the fact was a really good bite. And the fact was a really good bite. And the fact that I long for more is the promise that that I long for more is the promise that that I long for more is the promise that life will continue to be interesting. So life will continue to be interesting. So life will continue to be interesting. So the huge shift is in the scandal the huge shift is in the scandal the huge shift is in the scandal particularity. You go from it's still particularity. You go from it's still particularity. You go from it's still not what I really want to that was not what I really want to that was not what I really want to that was lovely and more is to come. It's a lovely and more is to come. It's a lovely and more is to come. It's a complete transformation of your complete transformation of your complete transformation of your relationship with finitude. relationship with finitude. relationship with finitude. We humans don't like finitude. When We humans don't like finitude. When We humans don't like finitude. When something feels good, we want more. More something feels good, we want more. More something feels good, we want more. More accomplishment, more success, more accomplishment, more success, more accomplishment, more success, more kisses, more nachos. But chasing more kisses, more nachos. But chasing more kisses, more nachos. But chasing more isn't how we get to capital M meaning. isn't how we get to capital M meaning. isn't how we get to capital M meaning. To do that, we have to embrace the To do that, we have to embrace the To do that, we have to embrace the finite bits, however scandalous that finite bits, however scandalous that finite bits, however scandalous that might feel. But the big question is, how might feel. But the big question is, how might feel. But the big question is, how do we do that? How do we notice and make do we do that? How do we notice and make do we do that? How do we notice and make the most of these tiny, beautiful the most of these tiny, beautiful the most of these tiny, beautiful moments? We'll find out when the moments? We'll find out when the moments? We'll find out when the Happiness Lab returns after the break. Happiness Lab returns after the break. Happiness Lab returns after the break. [music] >> Stanford designers Dave Evans and Bill >> Stanford designers Dave Evans and Bill Bernett argue that instead of trying to Bernett argue that instead of trying to Bernett argue that instead of trying to find the big elusive meaning in life, we find the big elusive meaning in life, we find the big elusive meaning in life, we should instead focus on the little should instead focus on the little should instead focus on the little stuff, tiny moments of beauty and stuff, tiny moments of beauty and stuff, tiny moments of beauty and wonder. In fact, they think we should wonder. In fact, they think we should wonder. In fact, they think we should all be putting our efforts into creating all be putting our efforts into creating all be putting our efforts into creating these kinds of moments. these kinds of moments. these kinds of moments. >> Well, you can design moments, right? You >> Well, you can design moments, right? You >> Well, you can design moments, right? You can design any experience. And what can design any experience. And what can design any experience. And what you're looking for is to connect that you're looking for is to connect that you're looking for is to connect that moment to something bigger than moment to something bigger than moment to something bigger than yourself, right? Self-trcendence. yourself, right? Self-trcendence. yourself, right? Self-trcendence. That moment can be I always make my That moment can be I always make my That moment can be I always make my grandmother's purple cabbage. It's a grandmother's purple cabbage. It's a grandmother's purple cabbage. It's a recipe, you know, Germany from the 30s. recipe, you know, Germany from the 30s. recipe, you know, Germany from the 30s. It's just purple cabbage with some It's just purple cabbage with some It's just purple cabbage with some vinegar and sugar, but it's a thing. And vinegar and sugar, but it's a thing. And vinegar and sugar, but it's a thing. And when the purple cabbage comes out, the when the purple cabbage comes out, the when the purple cabbage comes out, the moment is everybody remembers grandma. moment is everybody remembers grandma. moment is everybody remembers grandma. So, it's these particular moments where So, it's these particular moments where So, it's these particular moments where we can discover a connection to the we can discover a connection to the we can discover a connection to the ultimate meaning of life, I guess, love, ultimate meaning of life, I guess, love, ultimate meaning of life, I guess, love, community, a memory of an important community, a memory of an important community, a memory of an important person in our lives. You have person in our lives. You have person in our lives. You have opportunities all around you to create opportunities all around you to create opportunities all around you to create these moments. I just, you know, I live these moments. I just, you know, I live these moments. I just, you know, I live in an industrial neighborhood in the in an industrial neighborhood in the in an industrial neighborhood in the city and I'm walking toward the train. city and I'm walking toward the train. city and I'm walking toward the train. I'm noticing there's this bush that's I'm noticing there's this bush that's I'm noticing there's this bush that's got a bunch of purple flowers on it. I got a bunch of purple flowers on it. I got a bunch of purple flowers on it. I don't know why it's blooming in don't know why it's blooming in don't know why it's blooming in December, but there's this bush doing December, but there's this bush doing December, but there's this bush doing its thing. And I stood there for a its thing. And I stood there for a its thing. And I stood there for a moment and I watched probably 20 other moment and I watched probably 20 other moment and I watched probably 20 other people just walk right by it. But to people just walk right by it. But to people just walk right by it. But to stop and take some pictures just to have stop and take some pictures just to have stop and take some pictures just to have a moment to savor the beauty of nature. a moment to savor the beauty of nature. a moment to savor the beauty of nature. Part of this moment making thing is Part of this moment making thing is Part of this moment making thing is change what you're looking for. change what you're looking for. change what you're looking for. Pay attention. Be available to what's Pay attention. Be available to what's Pay attention. Be available to what's right in front of you. This bush with right in front of you. This bush with right in front of you. This bush with purple flowers, the friendly barista purple flowers, the friendly barista purple flowers, the friendly barista who, you know, heated up my muffin. All who, you know, heated up my muffin. All who, you know, heated up my muffin. All the little things actually are packed the little things actually are packed the little things actually are packed with meaning. And you can design those with meaning. And you can design those with meaning. And you can design those moments. And you can also recognize and moments. And you can also recognize and moments. And you can also recognize and savor those moments. And in either case, savor those moments. And in either case, savor those moments. And in either case, you're changing the way your brain is you're changing the way your brain is you're changing the way your brain is wired, right? You're starting to look wired, right? You're starting to look wired, right? You're starting to look for things that are imbued with the for things that are imbued with the for things that are imbued with the scandal of particularity, the meaning in scandal of particularity, the meaning in scandal of particularity, the meaning in life, not the meaning of life. life, not the meaning of life. life, not the meaning of life. >> What's really going on in, you know, >> What's really going on in, you know, >> What's really going on in, you know, we're design guys. We're going to give we're design guys. We're going to give we're design guys. We're going to give you tools to design something, to make you tools to design something, to make you tools to design something, to make something. What are we making? So, if I something. What are we making? So, if I something. What are we making? So, if I go right to making meaning, nine times go right to making meaning, nine times go right to making meaning, nine times out of 10, the people we talk with, from out of 10, the people we talk with, from out of 10, the people we talk with, from 20 to 90, they're [snorts] all having 20 to 90, they're [snorts] all having 20 to 90, they're [snorts] all having the same problem. They go after this the same problem. They go after this the same problem. They go after this impact thing. So if I want these other impact thing. So if I want these other impact thing. So if I want these other forms of meaning, they're found in a forms of meaning, they're found in a forms of meaning, they're found in a different way of seeing the world. different way of seeing the world. different way of seeing the world. >> To really get into this idea of moment >> To really get into this idea of moment >> To really get into this idea of moment making, we need to make a distinction making, we need to make a distinction making, we need to make a distinction between two different kinds of worlds. between two different kinds of worlds. between two different kinds of worlds. First, the world that we often find First, the world that we often find First, the world that we often find ourselves in, the world of outcomes and ourselves in, the world of outcomes and ourselves in, the world of outcomes and instrumental value and capitalism and instrumental value and capitalism and instrumental value and capitalism and etc etc etc. What you call the etc etc etc. What you call the etc etc etc. What you call the transactional world. So Dave, what's the transactional world. So Dave, what's the transactional world. So Dave, what's the transactional world? transactional world? transactional world? >> We posit this idea of the tale of two >> We posit this idea of the tale of two >> We posit this idea of the tale of two worlds. There's the transactional world worlds. There's the transactional world worlds. There's the transactional world where I go and get stuff done and where I go and get stuff done and where I go and get stuff done and there's the flow world which is the there's the flow world which is the there's the flow world which is the fullness of the cosmos that's happening fullness of the cosmos that's happening fullness of the cosmos that's happening in this very moment right in front of me in this very moment right in front of me in this very moment right in front of me right under my feet right around me all right under my feet right around me all right under my feet right around me all the time we're playing with which world the time we're playing with which world the time we're playing with which world you're participating in in terms of you're participating in in terms of you're participating in in terms of directing your attention directing your attention directing your attention transactional world you know it's the transactional world you know it's the transactional world you know it's the world of lists frankly it's a world world of lists frankly it's a world world of lists frankly it's a world where you're living almost entirely in where you're living almost entirely in where you're living almost entirely in the past or the future I am criticizing the past or the future I am criticizing the past or the future I am criticizing what I did last time and learning from what I did last time and learning from what I did last time and learning from it so I can do it better and I'm it so I can do it better and I'm it so I can do it better and I'm thinking about you know I'm I'm still a thinking about you know I'm I'm still a thinking about you know I'm I'm still a post-it note I am literally looking at post-it note I am literally looking at post-it note I am literally looking at my desk and I've got 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 my desk and I've got 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 my desk and I've got 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. Got 18 things on a post-it list and 10. Got 18 things on a post-it list and 10. Got 18 things on a post-it list and I have circles next to them. And if the I have circles next to them. And if the I have circles next to them. And if the circle has an X in it, it's done. So circle has an X in it, it's done. So circle has an X in it, it's done. So right now I have 12 out of 18 things right now I have 12 out of 18 things right now I have 12 out of 18 things with X's and six things with circles. with X's and six things with circles. with X's and six things with circles. And you know what a really good day is? And you know what a really good day is? And you know what a really good day is? A really good day is when there's all A really good day is when there's all A really good day is when there's all X's. [laughter] What I can't wait is for X's. [laughter] What I can't wait is for X's. [laughter] What I can't wait is for that to be over. All the transaction that to be over. All the transaction that to be over. All the transaction world wants to be is done and world wants to be is done and world wants to be is done and successful. Successfully done. And the successful. Successfully done. And the successful. Successfully done. And the feedback is money and accolade and feedback is money and accolade and feedback is money and accolade and social media likes. So you get tons of social media likes. So you get tons of social media likes. So you get tons of feedback. So it's an easy world to be feedback. So it's an easy world to be feedback. So it's an easy world to be completely stuck in. And some people completely stuck in. And some people completely stuck in. And some people tell you it's the only real world. And tell you it's the only real world. And tell you it's the only real world. And that's that's kind of heartbreaking. that's that's kind of heartbreaking. that's that's kind of heartbreaking. >> And so you make a distinction between >> And so you make a distinction between >> And so you make a distinction between this transactional world and a different this transactional world and a different this transactional world and a different world that you call the flow world. So world that you call the flow world. So world that you call the flow world. So Bill, what's the flow world? How is it Bill, what's the flow world? How is it Bill, what's the flow world? How is it very different from the thing that Dave very different from the thing that Dave very different from the thing that Dave was just talking about? was just talking about? was just talking about? >> Well, in terms of what Dave just said, >> Well, in terms of what Dave just said, >> Well, in terms of what Dave just said, transactions, it's looking backwards to transactions, it's looking backwards to transactions, it's looking backwards to see what I got done. I'm looking forward see what I got done. I'm looking forward see what I got done. I'm looking forward to see what's next and I'm never right to see what's next and I'm never right to see what's next and I'm never right here in the moment in the present here in the moment in the present here in the moment in the present moment. And the flow world is more about moment. And the flow world is more about moment. And the flow world is more about the present moment. Again, it's the present moment. Again, it's the present moment. Again, it's available all the time. There's nothing available all the time. There's nothing available all the time. There's nothing inherently wrong with the transactional inherently wrong with the transactional inherently wrong with the transactional world, but it's when you make um world, but it's when you make um world, but it's when you make um intrinsically flow things. Let's say I intrinsically flow things. Let's say I intrinsically flow things. Let's say I have a mindfulness practice or I have a have a mindfulness practice or I have a have a mindfulness practice or I have a yoga practice, which should just be yoga practice, which should just be yoga practice, which should just be about being in the moment in in that about being in the moment in in that about being in the moment in in that place where you're in a sort of a flow place where you're in a sort of a flow place where you're in a sort of a flow state. You can turn that into state. You can turn that into state. You can turn that into transaction. Hey, I went to yoga five transaction. Hey, I went to yoga five transaction. Hey, I went to yoga five times this week. Check. And none of times this week. Check. And none of times this week. Check. And none of those things are the way the flow world those things are the way the flow world those things are the way the flow world actually works. You can be in both actually works. You can be in both actually works. You can be in both worlds at the same time, by the way. I worlds at the same time, by the way. I worlds at the same time, by the way. I can be in a total of flow state looking can be in a total of flow state looking can be in a total of flow state looking at the purple flowers and still get to at the purple flowers and still get to at the purple flowers and still get to the train on time, right? There's no the train on time, right? There's no the train on time, right? There's no contradiction here. It was the work of, contradiction here. It was the work of, contradiction here. It was the work of, you know, Dr. Lisa Miller at Columbia. you know, Dr. Lisa Miller at Columbia. you know, Dr. Lisa Miller at Columbia. We're talking about the awakened brain We're talking about the awakened brain We're talking about the awakened brain and the achieving brain or the left and the achieving brain or the left and the achieving brain or the left brain and the right brain if you want to brain and the right brain if you want to brain and the right brain if you want to use that model. Whatever it is, they're use that model. Whatever it is, they're use that model. Whatever it is, they're both on all the time. It's just you're both on all the time. It's just you're both on all the time. It's just you're not paying any attention. You know, the not paying any attention. You know, the not paying any attention. You know, the left brain is the one that talks. And if left brain is the one that talks. And if left brain is the one that talks. And if you're like me and Dave, there's you're like me and Dave, there's you're like me and Dave, there's somebody talking in my head all the somebody talking in my head all the somebody talking in my head all the time. And it's taken up all the space, time. And it's taken up all the space, time. And it's taken up all the space, the ability to access your creative sort the ability to access your creative sort the ability to access your creative sort of self, your intuitive self. It's all of self, your intuitive self. It's all of self, your intuitive self. It's all there. It's just underdeveloped in our there. It's just underdeveloped in our there. It's just underdeveloped in our society. And as Dave mentioned, people society. And as Dave mentioned, people society. And as Dave mentioned, people trust the transactional brain, the brain trust the transactional brain, the brain trust the transactional brain, the brain that talks. They think it's the real that talks. They think it's the real that talks. They think it's the real one. And they think this other one one. And they think this other one one. And they think this other one is sort of, you know, it's a it's okay, is sort of, you know, it's a it's okay, is sort of, you know, it's a it's okay, but it's not quote real. but it's not quote real. but it's not quote real. >> Got a cute. >> Got a cute. >> Got a cute. >> It's just as real. In fact, even more >> It's just as real. In fact, even more >> It's just as real. In fact, even more real. If you want to be a whole human real. If you want to be a whole human real. If you want to be a whole human being, you have to accept the reality of being, you have to accept the reality of being, you have to accept the reality of your creativity, your intuition, your your creativity, your intuition, your your creativity, your intuition, your awakened brain. All these things are awakened brain. All these things are awakened brain. All these things are neurologically true. It's just we live neurologically true. It's just we live neurologically true. It's just we live in a society that doesn't value them. in a society that doesn't value them. in a society that doesn't value them. >> You know, we talk about reframes all the >> You know, we talk about reframes all the >> You know, we talk about reframes all the time. The point of a reframe is to look time. The point of a reframe is to look time. The point of a reframe is to look at something differently, change your at something differently, change your at something differently, change your point of view, and we're trying to free point of view, and we're trying to free point of view, and we're trying to free people up to get them access to a bunch people up to get them access to a bunch people up to get them access to a bunch of stuff that they're missing. Now, of stuff that they're missing. Now, of stuff that they're missing. Now, Laura, you're doing this work, too. So, Laura, you're doing this work, too. So, Laura, you're doing this work, too. So, let me turn the arrow around. Now, let me turn the arrow around. Now, let me turn the arrow around. Now, you've got this struggle with your you've got this struggle with your you've got this struggle with your students. What are you finding helpful students. What are you finding helpful students. What are you finding helpful in number one, convincing them that this in number one, convincing them that this in number one, convincing them that this is available and legitimate and actually is available and legitimate and actually is available and legitimate and actually spending some time and energy on it? spending some time and energy on it? spending some time and energy on it? Well, I think this is one of the reasons Well, I think this is one of the reasons Well, I think this is one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you and so I was so excited to talk to you and so I was so excited to talk to you and so excited about this concept of the excited about this concept of the excited about this concept of the transactional world because I think transactional world because I think transactional world because I think especially my type A Yale undergraduates especially my type A Yale undergraduates especially my type A Yale undergraduates spend a lot of time in this spend a lot of time in this spend a lot of time in this transactional world. You had this quip transactional world. You had this quip transactional world. You had this quip that the transactional world is very that the transactional world is very that the transactional world is very imperialistic which I was like yes yes imperialistic which I was like yes yes imperialistic which I was like yes yes because I think it sucks you in. You because I think it sucks you in. You because I think it sucks you in. You know, Bill, you mentioned this idea of know, Bill, you mentioned this idea of know, Bill, you mentioned this idea of you're doing your meditation which in you're doing your meditation which in you're doing your meditation which in theory should be like fullon flow world. theory should be like fullon flow world. theory should be like fullon flow world. You're just being present and nothing You're just being present and nothing You're just being present and nothing else but I'm taking it off my list. I else but I'm taking it off my list. I else but I'm taking it off my list. I also have my meditation on a post-it also have my meditation on a post-it also have my meditation on a post-it note and I'm trying to do it so that I note and I'm trying to do it so that I note and I'm trying to do it so that I work better in my, you know, investment work better in my, you know, investment work better in my, you know, investment banking [clears throat] job or something banking [clears throat] job or something banking [clears throat] job or something like that. like that. like that. >> So, I'm curious what you all think of >> So, I'm curious what you all think of >> So, I'm curious what you all think of like how to fight the imperialism. This like how to fight the imperialism. This like how to fight the imperialism. This transactional world is so prone to suck transactional world is so prone to suck transactional world is so prone to suck you in, especially I think if you've you in, especially I think if you've you in, especially I think if you've been successful and benefited from the been successful and benefited from the been successful and benefited from the transactional world in the way that a transactional world in the way that a transactional world in the way that a lot of our Ivy League students have lot of our Ivy League students have lot of our Ivy League students have done. done. done. >> Well, one of our tools is savoring. And >> Well, one of our tools is savoring. And >> Well, one of our tools is savoring. And I know you're a savoring fan as well. I know you're a savoring fan as well. I know you're a savoring fan as well. You're sitting at a red light and your You're sitting at a red light and your You're sitting at a red light and your favorite song comes on and you kind of favorite song comes on and you kind of favorite song comes on and you kind of go, "Oh, that's great." Like, "No, no, go, "Oh, that's great." Like, "No, no, go, "Oh, that's great." Like, "No, no, no. no. no. really love it. Oh my god, I love that really love it. Oh my god, I love that really love it. Oh my god, I love that Dylan song. It is so drop all the way Dylan song. It is so drop all the way Dylan song. It is so drop all the way into it for 17 seconds into it for 17 seconds into it for 17 seconds and then off you go. And if you start and then off you go. And if you start and then off you go. And if you start learning how to do that, you start learning how to do that, you start learning how to do that, you start learning how to do sudden savoring like learning how to do sudden savoring like learning how to do sudden savoring like it's a good cup of coffee. Wait, hold it's a good cup of coffee. Wait, hold it's a good cup of coffee. Wait, hold that one on your tongue for 3 seconds that one on your tongue for 3 seconds that one on your tongue for 3 seconds longer. 3 seconds. Oh my god, I can longer. 3 seconds. Oh my god, I can longer. 3 seconds. Oh my god, I can actually taste because I make half calf. actually taste because I make half calf. actually taste because I make half calf. I use dark decaf and medium grind calf. I use dark decaf and medium grind calf. I use dark decaf and medium grind calf. Can I taste both beans? Oh god, I can. Can I taste both beans? Oh god, I can. Can I taste both beans? Oh god, I can. That moves the needle. That moves the needle. That moves the needle. >> One of the reasons I love this >> One of the reasons I love this >> One of the reasons I love this suggestion is that it's just a reminder suggestion is that it's just a reminder suggestion is that it's just a reminder that we can switch back and forth. One that we can switch back and forth. One that we can switch back and forth. One of the suggestions you give in the book of the suggestions you give in the book of the suggestions you give in the book is to literally tell yourself, okay, is to literally tell yourself, okay, is to literally tell yourself, okay, switch. And this was something I found switch. And this was something I found switch. And this was something I found myself even using right after reading myself even using right after reading myself even using right after reading the book is you know I'll be prepping the book is you know I'll be prepping the book is you know I'll be prepping for a podcast and you know kind of in for a podcast and you know kind of in for a podcast and you know kind of in full transaction urgent mind head and full transaction urgent mind head and full transaction urgent mind head and then I just remember like oh wait switch then I just remember like oh wait switch then I just remember like oh wait switch ah uh paying attention to the light in ah uh paying attention to the light in ah uh paying attention to the light in the world or like the seat under me or the world or like the seat under me or the world or like the seat under me or you know someone's walking by let me you know someone's walking by let me you know someone's walking by let me smile at them. It's almost like you give smile at them. It's almost like you give smile at them. It's almost like you give yourself the task of noticing what you yourself the task of noticing what you yourself the task of noticing what you can notice in the flow world and that can notice in the flow world and that can notice in the flow world and that works pretty well. works pretty well. works pretty well. >> Yeah. Yeah. It really it really does. >> Yeah. Yeah. It really it really does. >> Yeah. Yeah. It really it really does. the idea of flipping the switch. Like the idea of flipping the switch. Like the idea of flipping the switch. Like Dave and I were prepping for this, you Dave and I were prepping for this, you Dave and I were prepping for this, you know, the podcast and we were looking at know, the podcast and we were looking at know, the podcast and we were looking at our notes and that was all our notes and that was all our notes and that was all transactional. And then just before we transactional. And then just before we transactional. And then just before we came on, it was the moment when I came on, it was the moment when I came on, it was the moment when I flipped the switch to like, oh wow, I flipped the switch to like, oh wow, I flipped the switch to like, oh wow, I get to talk to this [laughter] really get to talk to this [laughter] really get to talk to this [laughter] really interesting person, Lorie Santos. This interesting person, Lorie Santos. This interesting person, Lorie Santos. This is an amazing body of work. This is is an amazing body of work. This is is an amazing body of work. This is going to be fun. There's the ways you going to be fun. There's the ways you going to be fun. There's the ways you can get unstuck that are really quite can get unstuck that are really quite can get unstuck that are really quite simple. I don't think you have to spend simple. I don't think you have to spend simple. I don't think you have to spend 10 years developing a meditation 10 years developing a meditation 10 years developing a meditation practice. Go ahead. That's probably a practice. Go ahead. That's probably a practice. Go ahead. That's probably a good thing. But even the Zen monks would good thing. But even the Zen monks would good thing. But even the Zen monks would say that enlightenment is instantaneous. say that enlightenment is instantaneous. say that enlightenment is instantaneous. And one of my favorite quotes is if you And one of my favorite quotes is if you And one of my favorite quotes is if you can't find enlightenment right where you can't find enlightenment right where you can't find enlightenment right where you are, where do you expect to find it? Is are, where do you expect to find it? Is are, where do you expect to find it? Is it over there? Is it over there? No, it over there? Is it over there? No, it over there? Is it over there? No, it's right here. And it's in just little it's right here. And it's in just little it's right here. And it's in just little moments. So, it's easier than you think. moments. So, it's easier than you think. moments. So, it's easier than you think. You don't have to spend a lot of time. You don't have to spend a lot of time. You don't have to spend a lot of time. Savoring is one thing. The idea of just Savoring is one thing. The idea of just Savoring is one thing. The idea of just practicing acceptance. Hey, I'm just practicing acceptance. Hey, I'm just practicing acceptance. Hey, I'm just going to try to be in the real world going to try to be in the real world going to try to be in the real world today and see what happens. And today and see what happens. And today and see what happens. And availability. Can I change what I'm availability. Can I change what I'm availability. Can I change what I'm looking for? It's all about connection. looking for? It's all about connection. looking for? It's all about connection. It's all about love and people and It's all about love and people and It's all about love and people and things beyond yourself. So, is there a things beyond yourself. So, is there a things beyond yourself. So, is there a moment where you can have a little more moment where you can have a little more moment where you can have a little more community? Can you talk to that person community? Can you talk to that person community? Can you talk to that person on the train? Can you chat with someone on the train? Can you chat with someone on the train? Can you chat with someone at the coffee shop? Find a way to at the coffee shop? Find a way to at the coffee shop? Find a way to connect. you know, these little tiny connect. you know, these little tiny connect. you know, these little tiny design moments that help you get unstuck design moments that help you get unstuck design moments that help you get unstuck and figure out that, you know, maybe and figure out that, you know, maybe and figure out that, you know, maybe there is some meaning in the life you're there is some meaning in the life you're there is some meaning in the life you're already living and you don't have to go already living and you don't have to go already living and you don't have to go find it somewhere else. One of the find it somewhere else. One of the find it somewhere else. One of the reasons I love your book so much is that reasons I love your book so much is that reasons I love your book so much is that you tell us some really good techniques you tell us some really good techniques you tell us some really good techniques for making that switch for kind of for making that switch for kind of for making that switch for kind of switching to the flow world. And one of switching to the flow world. And one of switching to the flow world. And one of the big ones you talk about is this idea the big ones you talk about is this idea the big ones you talk about is this idea of wonder. Dave, you mentioned that you of wonder. Dave, you mentioned that you of wonder. Dave, you mentioned that you give your students the mantra of give your students the mantra of give your students the mantra of pursuing latent wonderfulness. What do pursuing latent wonderfulness. What do pursuing latent wonderfulness. What do you mean by that? you mean by that? you mean by that? >> Well, first, you know, mindset matters. >> Well, first, you know, mindset matters. >> Well, first, you know, mindset matters. And if you walk into a room or you walk And if you walk into a room or you walk And if you walk into a room or you walk into any experience, it's probably going into any experience, it's probably going into any experience, it's probably going to be boring. I don't think I even know to be boring. I don't think I even know to be boring. I don't think I even know these people. Your chances of fulfilling these people. Your chances of fulfilling these people. Your chances of fulfilling that expectation are extremely high. If that expectation are extremely high. If that expectation are extremely high. If you walk in kind of going, man, I bet you walk in kind of going, man, I bet you walk in kind of going, man, I bet this is going to be great. I can't wait this is going to be great. I can't wait this is going to be great. I can't wait to meet these interesting people. Now, to meet these interesting people. Now, to meet these interesting people. Now, you may be disappointed. They may be all you may be disappointed. They may be all you may be disappointed. They may be all absolute douls like, oh, oh well. But absolute douls like, oh, oh well. But absolute douls like, oh, oh well. But when you round up, your chance of when you round up, your chance of when you round up, your chance of finding it goes way up. Use confirmation finding it goes way up. Use confirmation finding it goes way up. Use confirmation bias as a friend. You know, give bias as a friend. You know, give bias as a friend. You know, give yourself a chance. You know, we're yourself a chance. You know, we're yourself a chance. You know, we're learning how to play the game to win learning how to play the game to win learning how to play the game to win here. So, the pursuit of latent here. So, the pursuit of latent here. So, the pursuit of latent wonderfulness is there's something wonderfulness is there's something wonderfulness is there's something wonderful going on all the time. On the wonderful going on all the time. On the wonderful going on all the time. On the lat and wonderfulness, this is also in lat and wonderfulness, this is also in lat and wonderfulness, this is also in response to our students. You know, have response to our students. You know, have response to our students. You know, have a very high bar for everything. It's a very high bar for everything. It's a very high bar for everything. It's like I'm not going to go interview at a like I'm not going to go interview at a like I'm not going to go interview at a big company because big companies are big company because big companies are big company because big companies are bad. Well, how do you know that? Well, bad. Well, how do you know that? Well, bad. Well, how do you know that? Well, that's all my friends tell me. All that's all my friends tell me. All that's all my friends tell me. All right, here's your assignment. You know, right, here's your assignment. You know, right, here's your assignment. You know, you're going to go interview at uh, you you're going to go interview at uh, you you're going to go interview at uh, you know, Apple and Google and come back. know, Apple and Google and come back. know, Apple and Google and come back. One student said, "I will never One student said, "I will never One student said, "I will never interview at the CIA." Say, "Okay, go interview at the CIA." Say, "Okay, go interview at the CIA." Say, "Okay, go interview at the CIA." If there's a 20% interview at the CIA." If there's a 20% interview at the CIA." If there's a 20% chance that there's something in there chance that there's something in there chance that there's something in there that's interesting, that's interesting, that's interesting, >> go find it. >> go find it. >> go find it. >> Give it a shot. Go find it. And >> Give it a shot. Go find it. And >> Give it a shot. Go find it. And inevitably, they come back and they go, inevitably, they come back and they go, inevitably, they come back and they go, "Do you know that the CIA is working "Do you know that the CIA is working "Do you know that the CIA is working like 10 years ahead in the AI thing? like 10 years ahead in the AI thing? like 10 years ahead in the AI thing? They talked about stuff nobody's talking They talked about stuff nobody's talking They talked about stuff nobody's talking about in the valley. I totally want to about in the valley. I totally want to about in the valley. I totally want to work there." So our students set a work there." So our students set a work there." So our students set a ridiculously high bar for their ridiculously high bar for their ridiculously high bar for their experiences and if they're not going to experiences and if they're not going to experiences and if they're not going to be amazing, be amazing, be amazing, they don't want to do it. And so they they don't want to do it. And so they they don't want to do it. And so they shut themselves out of so many things shut themselves out of so many things shut themselves out of so many things they could try because their bar for they could try because their bar for they could try because their bar for latent wonderfulness is if it's not 100% latent wonderfulness is if it's not 100% latent wonderfulness is if it's not 100% I'm not going to do it. And then when I'm not going to do it. And then when I'm not going to do it. And then when you actually get down to how do you know you actually get down to how do you know you actually get down to how do you know it's not going to be cool, they don't it's not going to be cool, they don't it's not going to be cool, they don't know. They just heard it from a friend know. They just heard it from a friend know. They just heard it from a friend or more likely they're just afraid to or more likely they're just afraid to or more likely they're just afraid to try it. And so this is a way of getting try it. And so this is a way of getting try it. And so this is a way of getting them unstuck. And so that's seeking out them unstuck. And so that's seeking out them unstuck. And so that's seeking out these moments of wonder and maybe even these moments of wonder and maybe even these moments of wonder and maybe even these tiny moments of wonder, not these tiny moments of wonder, not these tiny moments of wonder, not putting wonder like you know capital W putting wonder like you know capital W putting wonder like you know capital W wonder wonder out there to look for. A wonder wonder out there to look for. A wonder wonder out there to look for. A second strategy you've talked about a second strategy you've talked about a second strategy you've talked about a lot is to attend to coherence. Dave, lot is to attend to coherence. Dave, lot is to attend to coherence. Dave, what's coherence and why is it so what's coherence and why is it so what's coherence and why is it so important? important? important? >> Okay, so we define coherence as the >> Okay, so we define coherence as the >> Okay, so we define coherence as the intersection and the alignment of who intersection and the alignment of who intersection and the alignment of who you are, what you believe and what you are, what you believe and what you are, what you believe and what you're doing. The research on meaning you're doing. The research on meaning you're doing. The research on meaning will say that if you can interconnect will say that if you can interconnect will say that if you can interconnect those three dots, who am I? What do I those three dots, who am I? What do I those three dots, who am I? What do I believe and what am I doing? then my believe and what am I doing? then my believe and what am I doing? then my life is coherent. I am making sense in life is coherent. I am making sense in life is coherent. I am making sense in the world. I'm acting just like myself. the world. I'm acting just like myself. the world. I'm acting just like myself. And if I don't have those dots And if I don't have those dots And if I don't have those dots connected, the chance of meaning goes connected, the chance of meaning goes connected, the chance of meaning goes way down. Now, of course, the way down. Now, of course, the way down. Now, of course, the prerequisite to connecting those dots is prerequisite to connecting those dots is prerequisite to connecting those dots is locating them. So, we have an exercise locating them. So, we have an exercise locating them. So, we have an exercise called the compass exercise, which has called the compass exercise, which has called the compass exercise, which has three components. My current story, my three components. My current story, my three components. My current story, my work view, and my life view. So, three work view, and my life view. So, three work view, and my life view. So, three little essays you write that will help little essays you write that will help little essays you write that will help you figure out the narrative that you figure out the narrative that you figure out the narrative that describes kind of who you are. Now, is describes kind of who you are. Now, is describes kind of who you are. Now, is that the totality of who you are? No. that the totality of who you are? No. that the totality of who you are? No. But it's a real good start. We've been But it's a real good start. We've been But it's a real good start. We've been doing this a couple hundred thousand doing this a couple hundred thousand doing this a couple hundred thousand times now. So, we kind of get the hang times now. So, we kind of get the hang times now. So, we kind of get the hang of it. And it seems to be working well of it. And it seems to be working well of it. And it seems to be working well for people. So, coherency is when I'm for people. So, coherency is when I'm for people. So, coherency is when I'm actually living out who I really am in actually living out who I really am in actually living out who I really am in the world, including the compromises the world, including the compromises the world, including the compromises that I have to make. [snorts] And a that I have to make. [snorts] And a that I have to make. [snorts] And a coherency sighting, which is a coherency sighting, which is a coherency sighting, which is a meaning-making tool, is catching meaning-making tool, is catching meaning-making tool, is catching yourself in the act of when was I yourself in the act of when was I yourself in the act of when was I coherent today? So, example, a really coherent today? So, example, a really coherent today? So, example, a really lovely coherency sighting for me, which lovely coherency sighting for me, which lovely coherency sighting for me, which is so easy to miss. You know, one of the is so easy to miss. You know, one of the is so easy to miss. You know, one of the growing edges of life design at Stanford growing edges of life design at Stanford growing edges of life design at Stanford is not more and more classes, but is not more and more classes, but is not more and more classes, but classes to different affinity groups. classes to different affinity groups. classes to different affinity groups. So, there was a pilot on designing your So, there was a pilot on designing your So, there was a pilot on designing your Muslim life. So, the kids who adhere to Muslim life. So, the kids who adhere to Muslim life. So, the kids who adhere to Islam feel pretty isolated and they Islam feel pretty isolated and they Islam feel pretty isolated and they would like to be in this life would like to be in this life would like to be in this life conversation with people of a similar conversation with people of a similar conversation with people of a similar mindset. So, Bill gets them in a room. mindset. So, Bill gets them in a room. mindset. So, Bill gets them in a room. The Muslim chaplain, Bill, the The Muslim chaplain, Bill, the The Muslim chaplain, Bill, the existential atheist, are co-eing a class existential atheist, are co-eing a class existential atheist, are co-eing a class on designing your Muslim mind. And I'm on designing your Muslim mind. And I'm on designing your Muslim mind. And I'm the guy with a seminary degree. I'm the guy with a seminary degree. I'm the guy with a seminary degree. I'm sitting in the back of the room watching sitting in the back of the room watching sitting in the back of the room watching my atheist partner teach a spirituality my atheist partner teach a spirituality my atheist partner teach a spirituality class and I'm thinking this is so cool. class and I'm thinking this is so cool. class and I'm thinking this is so cool. I helped build a place where people are I helped build a place where people are I helped build a place where people are integrating their spirituality even integrating their spirituality even integrating their spirituality even beyond their personal ideology. That is beyond their personal ideology. That is beyond their personal ideology. That is such a coherent moment for me. This is such a coherent moment for me. This is such a coherent moment for me. This is as good as it gets. And so it's about as good as it gets. And so it's about as good as it gets. And so it's about catching yourself in the action when catching yourself in the action when catching yourself in the action when it's actually working. And guess what? it's actually working. And guess what? it's actually working. And guess what? It's working more often than you think. It's working more often than you think. It's working more often than you think. It's time for a quick break, but when we It's time for a quick break, but when we It's time for a quick break, but when we return, we'll explore some of my return, we'll explore some of my return, we'll explore some of my favorite tips for stepping into the flow favorite tips for stepping into the flow favorite tips for stepping into the flow world, and we'll hear the surprising way world, and we'll hear the surprising way world, and we'll hear the surprising way that Bill is able to stay in the flow that Bill is able to stay in the flow that Bill is able to stay in the flow world almost all the time. The Happiness world almost all the time. The Happiness world almost all the time. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment. Lab will be back in a moment. Lab will be back in a moment. [music] >> We've been chatting with designers Dave >> We've been chatting with designers Dave Evans and Bill Bernett and exploring how Evans and Bill Bernett and exploring how Evans and Bill Bernett and exploring how to get out of the transactional world of to get out of the transactional world of to get out of the transactional world of dod do all the time so that we can find dod do all the time so that we can find dod do all the time so that we can find ways into the flow world. Now flow is an ways into the flow world. Now flow is an ways into the flow world. Now flow is an idea that we talk about a lot on the idea that we talk about a lot on the idea that we talk about a lot on the happiness lab but Bill and Dave have happiness lab but Bill and Dave have happiness lab but Bill and Dave have developed their own unique take on the developed their own unique take on the developed their own unique take on the concept. The original definition of flow concept. The original definition of flow concept. The original definition of flow according to Mih Chicksumih high the according to Mih Chicksumih high the according to Mih Chicksumih high the founder of this concept and a wonderful founder of this concept and a wonderful founder of this concept and a wonderful researcher and you know the definitive researcher and you know the definitive researcher and you know the definitive work flow the psychology of optimal work flow the psychology of optimal work flow the psychology of optimal experience comes out some time ago and experience comes out some time ago and experience comes out some time ago and defines the flow channel as being a zone defines the flow channel as being a zone defines the flow channel as being a zone where the challenge of the task in which where the challenge of the task in which where the challenge of the task in which you are currently engaged and your skill you are currently engaged and your skill you are currently engaged and your skill level are close to matched meaning level are close to matched meaning level are close to matched meaning you're not underkilled and now you're you're not underkilled and now you're you're not underkilled and now you're anxious because you're going to fail. anxious because you're going to fail. anxious because you're going to fail. You're not overskilled and you're bored You're not overskilled and you're bored You're not overskilled and you're bored because you could do this in your sleep because you could do this in your sleep because you could do this in your sleep but you're kind of really on it. And so but you're kind of really on it. And so but you're kind of really on it. And so what happens is the task demands enough what happens is the task demands enough what happens is the task demands enough of you that you could be fully engaged. of you that you could be fully engaged. of you that you could be fully engaged. And that zone is a place where you might And that zone is a place where you might And that zone is a place where you might drop into flow. There's like, you know, drop into flow. There's like, you know, drop into flow. There's like, you know, apex when is when you're really in the apex when is when you're really in the apex when is when you're really in the zone. That amazing US hockey team that zone. That amazing US hockey team that zone. That amazing US hockey team that beat the Russians, you know, you're beat the Russians, you know, you're beat the Russians, you know, you're totally in flow. That's great. And most totally in flow. That's great. And most totally in flow. That's great. And most people think that's what flow is. But people think that's what flow is. But people think that's what flow is. But here's the problem. It's this apex here's the problem. It's this apex here's the problem. It's this apex experience which makes it way too hard. experience which makes it way too hard. experience which makes it way too hard. Particularly in the simple task where I Particularly in the simple task where I Particularly in the simple task where I might be overskilled, might be overskilled, might be overskilled, we redefine what we call simple flow. we redefine what we call simple flow. we redefine what we call simple flow. You don't have to let boredom You don't have to let boredom You don't have to let boredom steal your brain. I mean, last night the steal your brain. I mean, last night the steal your brain. I mean, last night the heater went on at 1:00 in the morning. I heater went on at 1:00 in the morning. I heater went on at 1:00 in the morning. I go, "What the heck?" And I went upstairs go, "What the heck?" And I went upstairs go, "What the heck?" And I went upstairs and the thermostat had kind of exploded. and the thermostat had kind of exploded. and the thermostat had kind of exploded. So, I went all the way down the nerd So, I went all the way down the nerd So, I went all the way down the nerd rabbit hole of an old school thermostat rabbit hole of an old school thermostat rabbit hole of an old school thermostat that didn't work very well. And it only that didn't work very well. And it only that didn't work very well. And it only took me 45 minutes and I fixed it and I took me 45 minutes and I fixed it and I took me 45 minutes and I fixed it and I had the ass time cuz I went all the way had the ass time cuz I went all the way had the ass time cuz I went all the way into not this is such a pain in the ass, into not this is such a pain in the ass, into not this is such a pain in the ass, but it's kind of like gee I wonder what but it's kind of like gee I wonder what but it's kind of like gee I wonder what that 1980s engineer was thinking when he that 1980s engineer was thinking when he that 1980s engineer was thinking when he designed one of the worst UIs of all designed one of the worst UIs of all designed one of the worst UIs of all time. How interesting this could be. And time. How interesting this could be. And time. How interesting this could be. And so I just chose to go all the way in and so I just chose to go all the way in and so I just chose to go all the way in and enjoy the heck out of solving my enjoy the heck out of solving my enjoy the heck out of solving my thermostat problem and saving a little thermostat problem and saving a little thermostat problem and saving a little gas for Pacific Gas and Electric, you gas for Pacific Gas and Electric, you gas for Pacific Gas and Electric, you know. So just go with it. That's a know. So just go with it. That's a know. So just go with it. That's a choice flow. full engagement in what choice flow. full engagement in what choice flow. full engagement in what you're doing which allows you to you're doing which allows you to you're doing which allows you to experience as much of your aliveness as experience as much of your aliveness as experience as much of your aliveness as that particular activity will permit to that particular activity will permit to that particular activity will permit to be expressed in your scandalously be expressed in your scandalously be expressed in your scandalously particular self in the scandalously particular self in the scandalously particular self in the scandalously particular moment could be a flow mode. particular moment could be a flow mode. particular moment could be a flow mode. >> I love that flow really plays on this >> I love that flow really plays on this >> I love that flow really plays on this idea of the scandal of the particular idea of the scandal of the particular idea of the scandal of the particular because we can only ever get it in the because we can only ever get it in the because we can only ever get it in the present moment. It's not something we present moment. It's not something we present moment. It's not something we can design for the future or think about can design for the future or think about can design for the future or think about in the past. Bill, you've also talked in the past. Bill, you've also talked in the past. Bill, you've also talked about how these moments of being in flow about how these moments of being in flow about how these moments of being in flow really require being a little bit more really require being a little bit more really require being a little bit more embodied. Why is embodiment so embodied. Why is embodiment so embodied. Why is embodiment so important? important? important? >> Oh, you know, this thing, this body >> Oh, you know, this thing, this body >> Oh, you know, this thing, this body isn't just the thing that takes my brain isn't just the thing that takes my brain isn't just the thing that takes my brain to meetings. I mean, we know that to meetings. I mean, we know that to meetings. I mean, we know that there's a lot of neurology going on in there's a lot of neurology going on in there's a lot of neurology going on in the gut and in the veagal nerves and all the gut and in the veagal nerves and all the gut and in the veagal nerves and all the other systems. So, we are embodied the other systems. So, we are embodied the other systems. So, we are embodied creatures and we learn by moving and creatures and we learn by moving and creatures and we learn by moving and working in the world. There's our working in the world. There's our working in the world. There's our intelligence, our IQ, I guess you could intelligence, our IQ, I guess you could intelligence, our IQ, I guess you could say, the talking part of our brain. say, the talking part of our brain. say, the talking part of our brain. There's our EQ, our emotional part of There's our EQ, our emotional part of There's our EQ, our emotional part of our brain. There's our kinesthetic our brain. There's our kinesthetic our brain. There's our kinesthetic understanding of the world. How do we understanding of the world. How do we understanding of the world. How do we move in the world? The propriception in move in the world? The propriception in move in the world? The propriception in our body. There's a whole bunch of stuff our body. There's a whole bunch of stuff our body. There's a whole bunch of stuff coming up now around how the body coming up now around how the body coming up now around how the body actually understands itself in the actually understands itself in the actually understands itself in the world. And so, you know, don't talk to world. And so, you know, don't talk to world. And so, you know, don't talk to me about artificial intelligence and me about artificial intelligence and me about artificial intelligence and disembodied computers. You you have to disembodied computers. You you have to disembodied computers. You you have to be inside this embodied intelligence be inside this embodied intelligence be inside this embodied intelligence because it's also where where we feel because it's also where where we feel because it's also where where we feel our intuition, our curiosity. And many our intuition, our curiosity. And many our intuition, our curiosity. And many of the triggers for flow have to do of the triggers for flow have to do of the triggers for flow have to do with, you know, either releasing a with, you know, either releasing a with, you know, either releasing a dopamine circuit or releasing some kind dopamine circuit or releasing some kind dopamine circuit or releasing some kind of a a neural circuit that engages the of a a neural circuit that engages the of a a neural circuit that engages the rest of the body in that experience, rest of the body in that experience, rest of the body in that experience, which is why athletes often talk about, which is why athletes often talk about, which is why athletes often talk about, you know, being in the zone or things. you know, being in the zone or things. you know, being in the zone or things. It's a physical kinesthetic flow. So, It's a physical kinesthetic flow. So, It's a physical kinesthetic flow. So, these are all embodiment of ourselves in these are all embodiment of ourselves in these are all embodiment of ourselves in a time and space in the world that are a time and space in the world that are a time and space in the world that are all triggers to the what we we're all triggers to the what we we're all triggers to the what we we're calling simple flow or the flow state calling simple flow or the flow state calling simple flow or the flow state that's available all the time. One of that's available all the time. One of that's available all the time. One of our analogies, it's like an aquifer our analogies, it's like an aquifer our analogies, it's like an aquifer running right under the surface. All you running right under the surface. All you running right under the surface. All you got to do is drill a hole and there's got to do is drill a hole and there's got to do is drill a hole and there's plenty of water. You just just got to plenty of water. You just just got to plenty of water. You just just got to dig into that thing that's right beneath dig into that thing that's right beneath dig into that thing that's right beneath you. Bill I call the flow master. Bill you. Bill I call the flow master. Bill you. Bill I call the flow master. Bill has loved flow for a long time. He's has loved flow for a long time. He's has loved flow for a long time. He's like kept in flow. Bill, you know, more like kept in flow. Bill, you know, more like kept in flow. Bill, you know, more than a few times you'll tell me than a few times you'll tell me than a few times you'll tell me something like, "Oh god, you know, it's something like, "Oh god, you know, it's something like, "Oh god, you know, it's really been great. I've been in flow for really been great. I've been in flow for really been great. I've been in flow for four days now. I mean, you claim to four days now. I mean, you claim to four days now. I mean, you claim to attain this persistent flow state. attain this persistent flow state. attain this persistent flow state. Can you give the listeners any tips on Can you give the listeners any tips on Can you give the listeners any tips on how the heck do you pull that off? how the heck do you pull that off? how the heck do you pull that off? >> Uh, it's both something I I try to do >> Uh, it's both something I I try to do >> Uh, it's both something I I try to do and it's a mystery fundamentally, but um and it's a mystery fundamentally, but um and it's a mystery fundamentally, but um I really get back to it's depends on I really get back to it's depends on I really get back to it's depends on what you're looking for. what you're looking for. what you're looking for. And so when I start my day, I've been And so when I start my day, I've been And so when I start my day, I've been for a long many many many years now, I for a long many many many years now, I for a long many many many years now, I start the day with a an affirmation start the day with a an affirmation start the day with a an affirmation where I say um I live in the best of all where I say um I live in the best of all where I say um I live in the best of all possible worlds because as Dave possible worlds because as Dave possible worlds because as Dave mentioned, I'm an existential atheist. mentioned, I'm an existential atheist. mentioned, I'm an existential atheist. So truly the rad [laughter] radical So truly the rad [laughter] radical So truly the rad [laughter] radical acceptance that this is it might as well acceptance that this is it might as well acceptance that this is it might as well be the best. And uh everything I do be the best. And uh everything I do be the best. And uh everything I do today I choose to do and choosing into today I choose to do and choosing into today I choose to do and choosing into my experience I think is the is the my experience I think is the is the my experience I think is the is the number one way in which I find flow. number one way in which I find flow. number one way in which I find flow. >> That's the voice of availability by the >> That's the voice of availability by the >> That's the voice of availability by the way. That's what availability sounds way. That's what availability sounds way. That's what availability sounds like. like. like. >> I'm pretty good at being simultaneously >> I'm pretty good at being simultaneously >> I'm pretty good at being simultaneously I get stuff done. I mean, you know, some I get stuff done. I mean, you know, some I get stuff done. I mean, you know, some people might claim I'm absent-minded, people might claim I'm absent-minded, people might claim I'm absent-minded, but it's just because my mind is on but it's just because my mind is on but it's just because my mind is on something else, not on whatever their something else, not on whatever their something else, not on whatever their priority is in the transaction world. priority is in the transaction world. priority is in the transaction world. But it's also, you know, I've practiced But it's also, you know, I've practiced But it's also, you know, I've practiced creativity. I'm a painter and I'm an creativity. I'm a painter and I'm an creativity. I'm a painter and I'm an artist. I spend a lot of time artist. I spend a lot of time artist. I spend a lot of time in that wonderful, you know, a quote in that wonderful, you know, a quote in that wonderful, you know, a quote from Robert Henry, the goal isn't to from Robert Henry, the goal isn't to from Robert Henry, the goal isn't to make art. It's to be in that wonderful make art. It's to be in that wonderful make art. It's to be in that wonderful state of mind that makes art inevitable. state of mind that makes art inevitable. state of mind that makes art inevitable. So I try to spend a lot of time in the So I try to spend a lot of time in the So I try to spend a lot of time in the state of mind that makes flow state of mind that makes flow state of mind that makes flow inevitable. inevitable. inevitable. >> Another thing you seem to both spend a >> Another thing you seem to both spend a >> Another thing you seem to both spend a lot of time in is the last suggestion lot of time in is the last suggestion lot of time in is the last suggestion that you have for everyone for how to that you have for everyone for how to that you have for everyone for how to get into the flow world more, which is get into the flow world more, which is get into the flow world more, which is that you both spend a lot of time in that you both spend a lot of time in that you both spend a lot of time in community. Why is community so important community. Why is community so important community. Why is community so important for design thinking generally? for design thinking generally? for design thinking generally? >> Well, community I mean in terms of >> Well, community I mean in terms of >> Well, community I mean in terms of design, design is always done on teams. design, design is always done on teams. design, design is always done on teams. It's always done with people. You want It's always done with people. You want It's always done with people. You want to radically collaborate with people of to radically collaborate with people of to radically collaborate with people of different points of view. But the different points of view. But the different points of view. But the community part in the new book really community part in the new book really community part in the new book really comes from Dave's experience teaching a comes from Dave's experience teaching a comes from Dave's experience teaching a program at Stanford called the program at Stanford called the program at Stanford called the Distinguished Career Institute. It's a Distinguished Career Institute. It's a Distinguished Career Institute. It's a gap year for grown-ups. People come to gap year for grown-ups. People come to gap year for grown-ups. People come to Stanford for a year after a Stanford for a year after a Stanford for a year after a distinguished career and they spend time distinguished career and they spend time distinguished career and they spend time trying to figure out the pivot, the trying to figure out the pivot, the trying to figure out the pivot, the thing they're going to do next in their thing they're going to do next in their thing they're going to do next in their lives. These are pretty smart, lives. These are pretty smart, lives. These are pretty smart, successful people. Dave, how does this successful people. Dave, how does this successful people. Dave, how does this community thing work with them? community thing work with them? community thing work with them? >> Well, it's been interesting. First of >> Well, it's been interesting. First of >> Well, it's been interesting. First of all, and we do community work at all our all, and we do community work at all our all, and we do community work at all our classes, I mean, we often say it's classes, I mean, we often say it's classes, I mean, we often say it's almost impossible to hear yourself by almost impossible to hear yourself by almost impossible to hear yourself by yourself. Dan Seagull, you know, yourself. Dan Seagull, you know, yourself. Dan Seagull, you know, formerly out of UCLA, the Mindsight formerly out of UCLA, the Mindsight formerly out of UCLA, the Mindsight Institute, will remind us all that in Institute, will remind us all that in Institute, will remind us all that in fact the autonomous self is a profoundly fact the autonomous self is a profoundly fact the autonomous self is a profoundly toxic lie. We now know scientifically toxic lie. We now know scientifically toxic lie. We now know scientifically that consciousness extends. This is the that consciousness extends. This is the that consciousness extends. This is the nature of human consciousness. We are nature of human consciousness. We are nature of human consciousness. We are deeply involved with each other. So, if deeply involved with each other. So, if deeply involved with each other. So, if you start understanding that, then you you start understanding that, then you you start understanding that, then you really want to leverage what it means to really want to leverage what it means to really want to leverage what it means to be in community because that the be in community because that the be in community because that the fullness of you is really only available fullness of you is really only available fullness of you is really only available as part of us. And so what we found at as part of us. And so what we found at as part of us. And so what we found at this distinguished careers group is I this distinguished careers group is I this distinguished careers group is I started putting people into design teams started putting people into design teams started putting people into design teams not to design the life after their not to design the life after their not to design the life after their program but to get the most from it in program but to get the most from it in program but to get the most from it in the present moment. And the nice thing the present moment. And the nice thing the present moment. And the nice thing about these these folks these 35 to 45 about these these folks these 35 to 45 about these these folks these 35 to 45 people 45 to 90 years old mostly 55 to people 45 to 90 years old mostly 55 to people 45 to 90 years old mostly 55 to 75 thinking about what do I do next? And 75 thinking about what do I do next? And 75 thinking about what do I do next? And they're here to become their fuller they're here to become their fuller they're here to become their fuller selves and they spend some time just selves and they spend some time just selves and they spend some time just exploring. So, it's this idea of we're exploring. So, it's this idea of we're exploring. So, it's this idea of we're all becoming, can you become more all becoming, can you become more all becoming, can you become more intentionally? And so, the fellows look intentionally? And so, the fellows look intentionally? And so, the fellows look at each other, kind of go, "Well, hi. at each other, kind of go, "Well, hi. at each other, kind of go, "Well, hi. Who are you? You know, I'm Dave. I'm Who are you? You know, I'm Dave. I'm Who are you? You know, I'm Dave. I'm Lorie Santos." Well, what are you into? Lorie Santos." Well, what are you into? Lorie Santos." Well, what are you into? Yeah, I'm into the happiness thing. Oh, Yeah, I'm into the happiness thing. Oh, Yeah, I'm into the happiness thing. Oh, really? That's so cool. And they take really? That's so cool. And they take really? That's so cool. And they take each other at face value and the only each other at face value and the only each other at face value and the only thing they want to do for each other is thing they want to do for each other is thing they want to do for each other is help one another become their more help one another become their more help one another become their more authentic selves. And what's funny is authentic selves. And what's funny is authentic selves. And what's funny is that a couple of weeks into the program, that a couple of weeks into the program, that a couple of weeks into the program, they will all say, "These are the best they will all say, "These are the best they will all say, "These are the best friends I've ever made." And my line is, friends I've ever made." And my line is, friends I've ever made." And my line is, "I'm not buying it." You created "I'm not buying it." You created "I'm not buying it." You created corporate cultures. Almost all of them corporate cultures. Almost all of them corporate cultures. Almost all of them had big families. I said, "Aren't most had big families. I said, "Aren't most had big families. I said, "Aren't most of you fending off hundreds of people of you fending off hundreds of people of you fending off hundreds of people saying, "Where are you? I miss you. saying, "Where are you? I miss you. saying, "Where are you? I miss you. You've been gone for a year." And you're You've been gone for a year." And you're You've been gone for a year." And you're telling me these 35 Yahoos that some telling me these 35 Yahoos that some telling me these 35 Yahoos that some admission officer at Stanford threw you admission officer at Stanford threw you admission officer at Stanford threw you into a room with. You've never met into a room with. You've never met into a room with. You've never met before. In six weeks, become the best before. In six weeks, become the best before. In six weeks, become the best friend you ever had. Really? And they friend you ever had. Really? And they friend you ever had. Really? And they go, "Yeah." And the reason is because go, "Yeah." And the reason is because go, "Yeah." And the reason is because they're in this kind of community where they're in this kind of community where they're in this kind of community where the intention of our interaction the intention of our interaction the intention of our interaction is not just having a good time. That's a is not just having a good time. That's a is not just having a good time. That's a social gathering. It's not getting social gathering. It's not getting social gathering. It's not getting something done. That's a collaborative something done. That's a collaborative something done. That's a collaborative gathering. And my argument is 99% of gathering. And my argument is 99% of gathering. And my argument is 99% of what people do in the transactional what people do in the transactional what people do in the transactional world is social or collaborative world is social or collaborative world is social or collaborative wonderful things. But then there's a wonderful things. But then there's a wonderful things. But then there's a formative community which is why are we formative community which is why are we formative community which is why are we together? We're together to become our together? We're together to become our together? We're together to become our better selves and to enjoy more fully better selves and to enjoy more fully better selves and to enjoy more fully the self we're presently trying on. So the self we're presently trying on. So the self we're presently trying on. So that is a different conversation with that is a different conversation with that is a different conversation with different questions. And it turns out I different questions. And it turns out I different questions. And it turns out I don't have to be in the same thing. So don't have to be in the same thing. So don't have to be in the same thing. So the climate change fanatic and the the climate change fanatic and the the climate change fanatic and the person who wants to become a fine person who wants to become a fine person who wants to become a fine artist, they can be in the same group artist, they can be in the same group artist, they can be in the same group because they're not collaborating on the because they're not collaborating on the because they're not collaborating on the content of their lives. They're content of their lives. They're content of their lives. They're collaborating on the intent of their collaborating on the intent of their collaborating on the intent of their lives, which is becoming. So when we set lives, which is becoming. So when we set lives, which is becoming. So when we set people in relationships that allow people in relationships that allow people in relationships that allow becoming to occur, which all you need to becoming to occur, which all you need to becoming to occur, which all you need to be as a thoughtful, self-aware person, be as a thoughtful, self-aware person, be as a thoughtful, self-aware person, stuff happens. And so for folks that stuff happens. And so for folks that stuff happens. And so for folks that maybe can't join this Stanford group but maybe can't join this Stanford group but maybe can't join this Stanford group but really want to form a similar formative really want to form a similar formative really want to form a similar formative community and focus on becoming any community and focus on becoming any community and focus on becoming any tips. tips. tips. >> The simple answer is frankly come up >> The simple answer is frankly come up >> The simple answer is frankly come up with some generative questions. I did with some generative questions. I did with some generative questions. I did this at Thanksgiving. I actually had this at Thanksgiving. I actually had this at Thanksgiving. I actually had three Thanksgivings and in all the three Thanksgivings and in all the three Thanksgivings and in all the dinners I brought three questions and dinners I brought three questions and dinners I brought three questions and those questions were formative not those questions were formative not those questions were formative not transactional or entertainment. One was transactional or entertainment. One was transactional or entertainment. One was boy the world's kind of full of a lot of boy the world's kind of full of a lot of boy the world's kind of full of a lot of ugly things these days. When were you ugly things these days. When were you ugly things these days. When were you recently surprised by someone doing recently surprised by someone doing recently surprised by someone doing something good that restored your faith something good that restored your faith something good that restored your faith in humanity? And guess what? Everybody in humanity? And guess what? Everybody in humanity? And guess what? Everybody had an answer. I even asked directly, had an answer. I even asked directly, had an answer. I even asked directly, what have you become this year? Or what what have you become this year? Or what what have you become this year? Or what are you hoping to become next year? And are you hoping to become next year? And are you hoping to become next year? And you know, maybe two out of 10 people you know, maybe two out of 10 people you know, maybe two out of 10 people were like, whoa, that's a little much, were like, whoa, that's a little much, were like, whoa, that's a little much, you know, but eight out of 10, oh well, you know, but eight out of 10, oh well, you know, but eight out of 10, oh well, you know, what I'm becoming is. And the you know, what I'm becoming is. And the you know, what I'm becoming is. And the other is, is there a letter in you that other is, is there a letter in you that other is, is there a letter in you that needs to get out? And if so, what is it? needs to get out? And if so, what is it? needs to get out? And if so, what is it? And who's it to? And those are all And who's it to? And those are all And who's it to? And those are all becoming kinds of questions and people becoming kinds of questions and people becoming kinds of questions and people are surprisingly available. So the key are surprisingly available. So the key are surprisingly available. So the key thing if you want to start forming a thing if you want to start forming a thing if you want to start forming a more formative community is have better more formative community is have better more formative community is have better question. question. question. >> Yeah, this is something that I think we >> Yeah, this is something that I think we >> Yeah, this is something that I think we get wrong all the time. There's such get wrong all the time. There's such get wrong all the time. There's such lovely work by folks like Nick Epley lovely work by folks like Nick Epley lovely work by folks like Nick Epley that find that we often go for shallow that find that we often go for shallow that find that we often go for shallow questions especially if we're at a questions especially if we're at a questions especially if we're at a dinner party, something like dinner party, something like dinner party, something like Thanksgiving or a holiday meal or Thanksgiving or a holiday meal or Thanksgiving or a holiday meal or something. But really what people something. But really what people something. But really what people resonate with answering are these resonate with answering are these resonate with answering are these so-called deep questions, questions that so-called deep questions, questions that so-called deep questions, questions that are vulnerable, which I think have a a are vulnerable, which I think have a a are vulnerable, which I think have a a lot of features of these becoming lot of features of these becoming lot of features of these becoming questions, right? What are these questions, right? What are these questions, right? What are these emotions that you want to share? How can emotions that you want to share? How can emotions that you want to share? How can we focus things in a different way? How we focus things in a different way? How we focus things in a different way? How can you take a different perspective? can you take a different perspective? can you take a different perspective? How can you reframe to steal the How can you reframe to steal the How can you reframe to steal the designer's thinking? designer's thinking? designer's thinking? >> Seems like we've known this in social >> Seems like we've known this in social >> Seems like we've known this in social science for a while, but we can really science for a while, but we can really science for a while, but we can really apply it to becoming more in the flow apply it to becoming more in the flow apply it to becoming more in the flow world and finding these moments of world and finding these moments of world and finding these moments of meaning making. meaning making. meaning making. >> People want to have the experience of >> People want to have the experience of >> People want to have the experience of interacting with each other in interacting with each other in interacting with each other in meaningful ways. So think of think of a meaningful ways. So think of think of a meaningful ways. So think of think of a way to say something kindly. Have your way to say something kindly. Have your way to say something kindly. Have your own story ready to go. Don't make it be own story ready to go. Don't make it be own story ready to go. Don't make it be about you, but if you want to get in the about you, but if you want to get in the about you, but if you want to get in the deep water, jump in the pool first. And deep water, jump in the pool first. And deep water, jump in the pool first. And I think you'll be surprised. People are I think you'll be surprised. People are I think you'll be surprised. People are pretty good to each other if you give pretty good to each other if you give pretty good to each other if you give them a chance. And they're desperate for them a chance. And they're desperate for them a chance. And they're desperate for these conversations and these kinds of these conversations and these kinds of these conversations and these kinds of communities, right? The loneliness communities, right? The loneliness communities, right? The loneliness epidemic. They're not going to find it epidemic. They're not going to find it epidemic. They're not going to find it on social media. They're not going to on social media. They're not going to on social media. They're not going to find it in these other places. You know, find it in these other places. You know, find it in these other places. You know, when people are trying to think about when people are trying to think about when people are trying to think about how can I improve my life? What can I do how can I improve my life? What can I do how can I improve my life? What can I do to make it better? getting rid of these to make it better? getting rid of these to make it better? getting rid of these dysfunctional beliefs, leaning into dysfunctional beliefs, leaning into dysfunctional beliefs, leaning into these meaning making moments and these meaning making moments and these meaning making moments and creating communities instead of echo creating communities instead of echo creating communities instead of echo chambers and arguing and all this other chambers and arguing and all this other chambers and arguing and all this other stuff that's going on. You know, Dave is stuff that's going on. You know, Dave is stuff that's going on. You know, Dave is a big Jesus guy and I'm a big, you know, a big Jesus guy and I'm a big, you know, a big Jesus guy and I'm a big, you know, not Jesus guy. We've been collaborating not Jesus guy. We've been collaborating not Jesus guy. We've been collaborating for 20ome years on this work for 20ome years on this work for 20ome years on this work >> and it's the best collaboration I've >> and it's the best collaboration I've >> and it's the best collaboration I've ever had. So you don't have to agree on ever had. So you don't have to agree on ever had. So you don't have to agree on things in order to be in a things in order to be in a things in order to be in a collaboration. Particularly if the collaboration. Particularly if the collaboration. Particularly if the collaboration is about how to become the collaboration is about how to become the collaboration is about how to become the best version of yourself and uh with best version of yourself and uh with best version of yourself and uh with that intention do anything. Start a book that intention do anything. Start a book that intention do anything. Start a book club, start a salon where people get club, start a salon where people get club, start a salon where people get together and everybody gets to ask one together and everybody gets to ask one together and everybody gets to ask one question. But the questions can't be in question. But the questions can't be in question. But the questions can't be in the transaction world. That's the only the transaction world. That's the only the transaction world. That's the only rule. So, thank you so much for figuring rule. So, thank you so much for figuring rule. So, thank you so much for figuring out ways that we can find a few more of out ways that we can find a few more of out ways that we can find a few more of these moments of meaning and for doing these moments of meaning and for doing these moments of meaning and for doing it in a way that I think really it in a way that I think really it in a way that I think really resonates with everybody that's feeling resonates with everybody that's feeling resonates with everybody that's feeling stuck right now, which is not by stuck right now, which is not by stuck right now, which is not by cramming more in, but getting more out cramming more in, but getting more out cramming more in, but getting more out of the moments that we already have. of the moments that we already have. of the moments that we already have. >> Well, thanks. And here's a little PS, by >> Well, thanks. And here's a little PS, by >> Well, thanks. And here's a little PS, by the way, while we duck the question, the way, while we duck the question, the way, while we duck the question, what is the meaning of your life? And what is the meaning of your life? And what is the meaning of your life? And let's just live more meaningfully along let's just live more meaningfully along let's just live more meaningfully along the way. Let's live more purposefully on the way. Let's live more purposefully on the way. Let's live more purposefully on the way to whatever we're going to find the way to whatever we're going to find the way to whatever we're going to find later. It turns out if you get good at later. It turns out if you get good at later. It turns out if you get good at this stuff, that meaning of life thing this stuff, that meaning of life thing this stuff, that meaning of life thing is going to come into view a lot more is going to come into view a lot more is going to come into view a lot more soon and a lot more clearly. soon and a lot more clearly. soon and a lot more clearly. >> Figuring out the meaning of life is >> Figuring out the meaning of life is >> Figuring out the meaning of life is hard. [music] But I hope that this hard. [music] But I hope that this hard. [music] But I hope that this episode has convinced you that there's episode has convinced you that there's episode has convinced you that there's plenty of ways to find meaning in life, plenty of ways to find meaning in life, plenty of ways to find meaning in life, even when it doesn't feel like it. If even when it doesn't feel like it. If even when it doesn't feel like it. If you're feeling stuck, why not commit to you're feeling stuck, why not commit to you're feeling stuck, why not commit to turning towards some new moments of turning towards some new moments of turning towards some new moments of meaning this week? And if you want even meaning this week? And if you want even meaning this week? And if you want even more advice about how to do that, check more advice about how to do that, check more advice about how to do that, check out Bill and Dave's new book, How to out Bill and Dave's new book, How to out Bill and Dave's new book, How to Live a Meaningful Life, which is out Live a Meaningful Life, which is out Live a Meaningful Life, which is out this week. That's a wrap on our series this week. That's a wrap on our series this week. That's a wrap on our series about getting unstuck [music] in 2026. about getting unstuck [music] in 2026. about getting unstuck [music] in 2026. What' you think? Why not let us know? What' you think? Why not let us know? What' you think? Why not let us know? You can email us at happiness lab at You can email us at happiness lab at You can email us at happiness lab at pushkin.fm pushkin.fm pushkin.fm or leave us a review to tell us what you or leave us a review to tell us what you or leave us a review to tell us what you liked. You can also [music] sign up to liked. You can also [music] sign up to liked. You can also [music] sign up to learn more about the science of learn more about the science of learn more about the science of happiness with my free newsletter on my happiness with my free newsletter on my happiness with my free newsletter on my website drlissantos.com. website drlissantos.com. website drlissantos.com. That's d [music] r l a r i e santos.com. That's d [music] r l a r i e santos.com. That's d [music] r l a r i e santos.com. We'll be [music] back next week just in We'll be [music] back next week just in We'll be [music] back next week just in time for Valentine's Day with a new time for Valentine's Day with a new time for Valentine's Day with a new series on the science of love. In our series on the science of love. In our series on the science of love. In our first episode, we'll explore what we get first episode, we'll explore what we get first episode, we'll explore what we get wrong about love. We'll learn why the wrong about love. We'll learn why the wrong about love. We'll learn why the love we get from others doesn't always love we get from others doesn't always love we get from others doesn't always register emotionally and what we can do register emotionally and what we can do register emotionally and what we can do to open ourselves up to it. to open ourselves up to it. to open ourselves up to it. >> We can be loved. You know, we could have >> We can be loved. You know, we could have >> We can be loved. You know, we could have all these people in our lives that kind all these people in our lives that kind all these people in our lives that kind of objectively love us, but we don't of objectively love us, but we don't of objectively love us, but we don't actually feel loved by them or maybe not actually feel loved by them or maybe not actually feel loved by them or maybe not feel loved by them as much as we want to feel loved by them as much as we want to feel loved by them as much as we want to be. be. be. >> That's next week on the Happiness Lab >> That's next week on the Happiness Lab >> That's next week on the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Lauri Santos.