How to Better Regulate Your Emotions | Dr. Marc Brackett

A lot of people think emotion regulation A lot of people think emotion regulation is getting rid of a feeling. It's not is getting rid of a feeling. It's not is getting rid of a feeling. It's not what it is. It's just having another what it is. It's just having another what it is. It's just having another relationship to it. I've had anxiety or relationship to it. I've had anxiety or relationship to it. I've had anxiety or live with it for a lot of my life, live with it for a lot of my life, live with it for a lot of my life, but sometimes I just say hello to it. but sometimes I just say hello to it. but sometimes I just say hello to it. It's like, "Hey, how you doing today?" It's like, "Hey, how you doing today?" It's like, "Hey, how you doing today?" And it goes away pretty quickly or it And it goes away pretty quickly or it And it goes away pretty quickly or it just sits there. I think that's the just sits there. I think that's the just sits there. I think that's the other thing about emotion regulation other thing about emotion regulation other thing about emotion regulation that people kind of misunderstand. They that people kind of misunderstand. They that people kind of misunderstand. They think it's like, "I got to check in with think it's like, "I got to check in with think it's like, "I got to check in with how I'm feeling all day long and then how I'm feeling all day long and then how I'm feeling all day long and then regulate. Check in regulate." Like you'd regulate. Check in regulate." Like you'd regulate. Check in regulate." Like you'd become psychotic if you did that all day become psychotic if you did that all day become psychotic if you did that all day long. Most of the time our emotions are long. Most of the time our emotions are long. Most of the time our emotions are in the background. You know, like if you in the background. You know, like if you in the background. You know, like if you thought about your feelings all day thought about your feelings all day thought about your feelings all day long, you wouldn't be able to do this long, you wouldn't be able to do this long, you wouldn't be able to do this podcast. Like that's unproductive. podcast. Like that's unproductive. podcast. Like that's unproductive. Emotions matter when there's a shift in Emotions matter when there's a shift in Emotions matter when there's a shift in our environment or the relationships, our environment or the relationships, our environment or the relationships, you know. If you said something that you know. If you said something that you know. If you said something that offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I have to make a choice in that moment, have to make a choice in that moment, have to make a choice in that moment, like how do I manage it? That's where like how do I manage it? That's where like how do I manage it? That's where the magic happens. the magic happens. the magic happens. Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science [music] where we discuss science [music] where we discuss science [music] and science-based tools for everyday and science-based tools for everyday and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at of neurobiology and ophthalmology at of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Marc Brackett. Dr. Marc today is Dr. Marc Brackett. Dr. Marc today is Dr. Marc Brackett. Dr. Marc Brackett is a professor of psychology at Brackett is a professor of psychology at Brackett is a professor of psychology at Yale University where he is also the Yale University where he is also the Yale University where he is also the director of Yale Center for Emotional director of Yale Center for Emotional director of Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He's an expert in the Intelligence. He's an expert in the Intelligence. He's an expert in the science of emotions and how to apply science of emotions and how to apply science of emotions and how to apply that to improve communication and that to improve communication and that to improve communication and relationships and performance in school relationships and performance in school relationships and performance in school and work. One common problem around and work. One common problem around and work. One common problem around discussions of emotions and emotional discussions of emotions and emotional discussions of emotions and emotional intelligence is that they are often intelligence is that they are often intelligence is that they are often vague and frankly somewhat soft and vague and frankly somewhat soft and vague and frankly somewhat soft and cliche. But not when Marc Brackett cliche. But not when Marc Brackett cliche. But not when Marc Brackett explains emotional intelligence as he explains emotional intelligence as he explains emotional intelligence as he does today because he talks about the does today because he talks about the does today because he talks about the practical tools that emerge from the practical tools that emerge from the practical tools that emerge from the science of emotional intelligence that science of emotional intelligence that science of emotional intelligence that you can use to improve your emotional you can use to improve your emotional you can use to improve your emotional life both with yourself and with others. life both with yourself and with others. life both with yourself and with others. And he's not just going to tell us to And he's not just going to tell us to And he's not just going to tell us to feel our emotions more deeply. While feel our emotions more deeply. While feel our emotions more deeply. While that could be important in certain that could be important in certain that could be important in certain settings, his His in and out of the settings, his His in and out of the settings, his His in and out of the laboratory is really focused on the laboratory is really focused on the laboratory is really focused on the small things that we can all do both in small things that we can all do both in small things that we can all do both in moments of emotion, but also on our own moments of emotion, but also on our own moments of emotion, but also on our own that can greatly increase our ability to that can greatly increase our ability to that can greatly increase our ability to understand what we're feeling, understand what we're feeling, understand what we're feeling, communicate it effectively, and to be communicate it effectively, and to be communicate it effectively, and to be better listeners, especially in moments better listeners, especially in moments better listeners, especially in moments that would otherwise create tension or that would otherwise create tension or that would otherwise create tension or confusion. In fact, what he shares today confusion. In fact, what he shares today confusion. In fact, what he shares today are life skills, the sort of life skills are life skills, the sort of life skills are life skills, the sort of life skills that make everything, school, that make everything, school, that make everything, school, friendships, romantic relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, professional life, and family life far professional life, and family life far professional life, and family life far more effective and enriching. So, I'm more effective and enriching. So, I'm more effective and enriching. So, I'm confident that you'll come away from confident that you'll come away from confident that you'll come away from today's episode with Marc Brackett today's episode with Marc Brackett today's episode with Marc Brackett knowing what to do and when to use the knowing what to do and when to use the knowing what to do and when to use the tools that you'll learn, and they are tools that you'll learn, and they are tools that you'll learn, and they are indeed very powerful to improve your indeed very powerful to improve your indeed very powerful to improve your life. Before [snorts] we begin, I'd like life. Before [snorts] we begin, I'd like life. Before [snorts] we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is to emphasize that this podcast is to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research separate from my teaching and research separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part roles at Stanford. It is, however, part roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero of my desire and effort to bring zero of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about cost to consumer information about cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the science and science-related tools to the science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that general public. In keeping with that general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include theme, today's episode does include theme, today's episode does include sponsors. sponsors. sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Marc And now for my discussion with Dr. Marc And now for my discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett. Dr. Marc Brackett, welcome. Brackett. Dr. Marc Brackett, welcome. Brackett. Dr. Marc Brackett, welcome. Thank you. Glad to be back. So much to Thank you. Glad to be back. So much to Thank you. Glad to be back. So much to discuss today about emotion regulation, discuss today about emotion regulation, discuss today about emotion regulation, about about about the kids, the future. Are the kids all the kids, the future. Are the kids all the kids, the future. Are the kids all right? They could be better. Mhm. right? They could be better. Mhm. right? They could be better. Mhm. And our And our And our obligation, obligation, obligation, our generation, other generations in our generation, other generations in our generation, other generations in you know, providing a world where kids you know, providing a world where kids you know, providing a world where kids can thrive and where everyone can can thrive and where everyone can can thrive and where everyone can thrive. It's It's a bit of a mess out thrive. It's It's a bit of a mess out thrive. It's It's a bit of a mess out there, but you're going to put some there, but you're going to put some there, but you're going to put some clarification on things for people. clarification on things for people. clarification on things for people. You're doing amazing work to give people You're doing amazing work to give people You're doing amazing work to give people tools for emotion regulation tools for emotion regulation tools for emotion regulation and more. So, let's start off and define and more. So, let's start off and define and more. So, let's start off and define emotion regulation. What is that? Yeah. emotion regulation. What is that? Yeah. emotion regulation. What is that? Yeah. Well, I think Well, I think Well, I think the simplest way to define it is using the simplest way to define it is using the simplest way to define it is using your emotions wisely to achieve your your emotions wisely to achieve your your emotions wisely to achieve your goals in life. goals in life. goals in life. It's a little bit too broad. It's a little bit too broad. It's a little bit too broad. And so, it's funny. As I was writing my And so, it's funny. As I was writing my And so, it's funny. As I was writing my book, I decided, I need a formula. book, I decided, I need a formula. book, I decided, I need a formula. And so, my formula is ER, which is And so, my formula is ER, which is And so, my formula is ER, which is emotion regulation, emotion regulation, emotion regulation, is a set of goals and strategies. So, is a set of goals and strategies. So, is a set of goals and strategies. So, it's ER {parentheses} G + S. it's ER {parentheses} G + S. it's ER {parentheses} G + S. And that equals a function of And that equals a function of And that equals a function of E + P + C. E + P + C. E + P + C. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> You know, made me feel smart. >> You know, made me feel smart. >> You know, made me feel smart. Emotion Mhm. person, context. Mhm. Emotion Mhm. person, context. Mhm. Emotion Mhm. person, context. Mhm. So, what I mean by that specifically is So, what I mean by that specifically is So, what I mean by that specifically is that it's a goal-oriented process. You that it's a goal-oriented process. You that it's a goal-oriented process. You have to want to regulate. have to want to regulate. have to want to regulate. You can prevent unwanted emotions. You can prevent unwanted emotions. You can prevent unwanted emotions. I have an acronym for that, too. It's I have an acronym for that, too. It's I have an acronym for that, too. It's PRIME. You can prevent unwanted PRIME. You can prevent unwanted PRIME. You can prevent unwanted emotions. You can reduce the difficult emotions. You can reduce the difficult emotions. You can reduce the difficult ones. ones. ones. I think people forget the I, initiate I think people forget the I, initiate I think people forget the I, initiate emotions. Like, when you're teaching or emotions. Like, when you're teaching or emotions. Like, when you're teaching or leading or presenting, like, you want to leading or presenting, like, you want to leading or presenting, like, you want to create an emotion in the room that's create an emotion in the room that's create an emotion in the room that's upregulating. You can maintain an upregulating. You can maintain an upregulating. You can maintain an emotion. Like, you know, what? I'm emotion. Like, you know, what? I'm emotion. Like, you know, what? I'm having a good day. having a good day. having a good day. Going to avoid these things to just keep Going to avoid these things to just keep Going to avoid these things to just keep it going. it going. it going. Savor the moment. And then there's Savor the moment. And then there's Savor the moment. And then there's enhancing, which is kind of boosting an enhancing, which is kind of boosting an enhancing, which is kind of boosting an emotion. So, that's PRIME. That's the emotion. So, that's PRIME. That's the emotion. So, that's PRIME. That's the goals. goals. goals. The strategies we can talk about The strategies we can talk about The strategies we can talk about for hours. Um, we'll get into that a for hours. Um, we'll get into that a for hours. Um, we'll get into that a little bit later. little bit later. little bit later. And then I think what most people And then I think what most people And then I think what most people misunderstand is that misunderstand is that misunderstand is that like, what we like, what we like, what we regulate are emotions. And like, what I regulate are emotions. And like, what I regulate are emotions. And like, what I do, for example, to deal with my anxiety do, for example, to deal with my anxiety do, for example, to deal with my anxiety is really different than my anger is really different than my anger is really different than my anger than my worry than my worry than my worry or other emotions. And that it's a or other emotions. And that it's a or other emotions. And that it's a function of the emotion you're feeling. function of the emotion you're feeling. function of the emotion you're feeling. It's a function of me as an individual, It's a function of me as an individual, It's a function of me as an individual, you know. you know. you know. I am on the neurotic side. I am on the neurotic side. I am on the neurotic side. Uh, I'm on the introverted side. And so, Uh, I'm on the introverted side. And so, Uh, I'm on the introverted side. And so, my strategy selection would be my strategy selection would be my strategy selection would be influenced by that. And then the influenced by that. And then the influenced by that. And then the context. Like, right here, right now. context. Like, right here, right now. context. Like, right here, right now. Like, I know you're into fitness and Like, I know you're into fitness and Like, I know you're into fitness and like, running and, you know, all this like, running and, you know, all this like, running and, you know, all this kind of stuff. kind of stuff. kind of stuff. I'm like, Andrew, you know, I'm really I'm like, Andrew, you know, I'm really I'm like, Andrew, you know, I'm really nervous right now. Like, do you mind if nervous right now. Like, do you mind if nervous right now. Like, do you mind if we take a break and I go for a run? we take a break and I go for a run? we take a break and I go for a run? You're like, you know, it's a little You're like, you know, it's a little You're like, you know, it's a little weird, Mark. So, context matters. You weird, Mark. So, context matters. You weird, Mark. So, context matters. You got to You're like, right now, if I were got to You're like, right now, if I were got to You're like, right now, if I were anxious, it's like, Mark, anxious, it's like, Mark, anxious, it's like, Mark, you got to use some cognitive strategies you got to use some cognitive strategies you got to use some cognitive strategies or breathing work. I can't go anywhere, or breathing work. I can't go anywhere, or breathing work. I can't go anywhere, so I'm stuck. And I think people need to so I'm stuck. And I think people need to so I'm stuck. And I think people need to see that kind of full spectrum. see that kind of full spectrum. see that kind of full spectrum. I feel like there's a close tie between I feel like there's a close tie between I feel like there's a close tie between emotion regulation and self-awareness. emotion regulation and self-awareness. emotion regulation and self-awareness. Yeah, but I feel like there's a Yeah, but I feel like there's a Yeah, but I feel like there's a tension between self-awareness and being tension between self-awareness and being tension between self-awareness and being able to experience and enjoy life. For able to experience and enjoy life. For able to experience and enjoy life. For instance, instance, instance, if I'm feeling anxious, if I'm feeling anxious, if I'm feeling anxious, I I'm thinking about how I'm appearing, I I'm thinking about how I'm appearing, I I'm thinking about how I'm appearing, how I'm sounding, that it's how I'm sounding, that it's how I'm sounding, that it's uncomfortable. uncomfortable. uncomfortable. Uh but if I get totally outside of that Uh but if I get totally outside of that Uh but if I get totally outside of that and just and just and just be in the experience that I'm in, be in the experience that I'm in, be in the experience that I'm in, uh uh uh then there's the potential to say the then there's the potential to say the then there's the potential to say the wrong thing, or you know, uh wrong thing, or you know, uh wrong thing, or you know, uh offend somebody, or who knows. So, when offend somebody, or who knows. So, when offend somebody, or who knows. So, when we talk about emotion regulation, what's we talk about emotion regulation, what's we talk about emotion regulation, what's the best approach to that that doesn't the best approach to that that doesn't the best approach to that that doesn't keep us in a subtext in our mind and and keep us in a subtext in our mind and and keep us in a subtext in our mind and and sort of out of the room? Because when sort of out of the room? Because when sort of out of the room? Because when we're alone, it's quite a bit different. we're alone, it's quite a bit different. we're alone, it's quite a bit different. We can we can breathe, we can use We can we can breathe, we can use We can we can breathe, we can use whatever self-regulation tools we want. whatever self-regulation tools we want. whatever self-regulation tools we want. Or ruminate, uh or write, or you know, Or ruminate, uh or write, or you know, Or ruminate, uh or write, or you know, or text or call a friend, whatever it or text or call a friend, whatever it or text or call a friend, whatever it is, but when we're at work, at school, is, but when we're at work, at school, is, but when we're at work, at school, uh on a podcast, if if there's that uh on a podcast, if if there's that uh on a podcast, if if there's that subtext, like, uh I'm I'm not locked in subtext, like, uh I'm I'm not locked in subtext, like, uh I'm I'm not locked in here, I'm not in the experience here, I'm not in the experience here, I'm not in the experience completely, I'm I'm I'm self-regulating completely, I'm I'm I'm self-regulating completely, I'm I'm I'm self-regulating or paying attention to myself, that can or paying attention to myself, that can or paying attention to myself, that can be very uncomfortable in its own right. be very uncomfortable in its own right. be very uncomfortable in its own right. It's work. Yeah. It's effortful. It's work. Yeah. It's effortful. It's work. Yeah. It's effortful. Uh and not always the best effort if Uh and not always the best effort if Uh and not always the best effort if it's going down the rabbit hole. I think it's going down the rabbit hole. I think it's going down the rabbit hole. I think that you're getting at, which is this that you're getting at, which is this that you're getting at, which is this mindset piece, mindset piece, mindset piece, that the first step is our mindset about that the first step is our mindset about that the first step is our mindset about our feelings. our feelings. our feelings. So, let me ask you, what's your mindset So, let me ask you, what's your mindset So, let me ask you, what's your mindset around anxiety? around anxiety? around anxiety? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um Um Um I I I Well, I have assumptions around it. I Well, I have assumptions around it. I Well, I have assumptions around it. I was telling someone the other day, if was telling someone the other day, if was telling someone the other day, if because I spend a lot of time alone, and because I spend a lot of time alone, and because I spend a lot of time alone, and I'm fairly introverted, but if I go into I'm fairly introverted, but if I go into I'm fairly introverted, but if I go into a crowded environment, for the first 5 6 a crowded environment, for the first 5 6 a crowded environment, for the first 5 6 minutes, I'm feeling kind of minutes, I'm feeling kind of minutes, I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed, like, "Wow, it's is crowded overwhelmed, like, "Wow, it's is crowded overwhelmed, like, "Wow, it's is crowded in here. There are a lot of people." And in here. There are a lot of people." And in here. There are a lot of people." And I I actually feel like I have a bit of a I I actually feel like I have a bit of a I I actually feel like I have a bit of a uh social interaction disorder for those uh social interaction disorder for those uh social interaction disorder for those first few minutes. first few minutes. first few minutes. But then after about 20, 30 minutes, I'm But then after about 20, 30 minutes, I'm But then after about 20, 30 minutes, I'm in that experience and I'm feel like I in that experience and I'm feel like I in that experience and I'm feel like I very comfortable. So, I have this very comfortable. So, I have this very comfortable. So, I have this mindset that social anxiety is something mindset that social anxiety is something mindset that social anxiety is something that um is like wading into water. It's that um is like wading into water. It's that um is like wading into water. It's always a little bit too cold at first or always a little bit too cold at first or always a little bit too cold at first or usually it's a little too cold, but over usually it's a little too cold, but over usually it's a little too cold, but over time you acclimate. time you acclimate. time you acclimate. All right, you didn't answer the All right, you didn't answer the All right, you didn't answer the question. Okay. question. Okay. question. Okay. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, let's try to rephrase it another >> So, let's try to rephrase it another >> So, let's try to rephrase it another way. What's your relationship to way. What's your relationship to way. What's your relationship to anxiety? I hate it. Okay. There you go. anxiety? I hate it. Okay. There you go. anxiety? I hate it. Okay. There you go. See how your automatic was like, "I hate See how your automatic was like, "I hate See how your automatic was like, "I hate anxiety." anxiety." anxiety." I did too for most of my life. I did too for most of my life. I did too for most of my life. And then I was with a friend who is a And then I was with a friend who is a And then I was with a friend who is a neuroscientist about anxiety and she neuroscientist about anxiety and she neuroscientist about anxiety and she said to me, "Mark, tell me said to me, "Mark, tell me said to me, "Mark, tell me all the things that make you anxious." I all the things that make you anxious." I all the things that make you anxious." I said, "Well, I'm anxious about said, "Well, I'm anxious about said, "Well, I'm anxious about fundraising. fundraising. fundraising. And you know, I got to raise the money And you know, I got to raise the money And you know, I got to raise the money to keep the research going. I'm anxious to keep the research going. I'm anxious to keep the research going. I'm anxious to make sure I want to make sure that to make sure I want to make sure that to make sure I want to make sure that like everything we do is high quality." like everything we do is high quality." like everything we do is high quality." And I went on and on. And then she asked And I went on and on. And then she asked And I went on and on. And then she asked me another question. She said, "Well, me another question. She said, "Well, me another question. She said, "Well, what do those what do those what do those have in common?" have in common?" have in common?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" And then I thought about it and I said, And then I thought about it and I said, And then I thought about it and I said, "Well, "Well, "Well, those are things that are important to those are things that are important to those are things that are important to me." me." me." And so she said, "So, why would anxiety And so she said, "So, why would anxiety And so she said, "So, why would anxiety be a bad thing?" be a bad thing?" be a bad thing?" And I think that we have to learn how to And I think that we have to learn how to And I think that we have to learn how to adopt a mindset around emotions that adopt a mindset around emotions that adopt a mindset around emotions that there are no bad emotions. It's what we there are no bad emotions. It's what we there are no bad emotions. It's what we do with our emotions that makes them do with our emotions that makes them do with our emotions that makes them harmful or difficult for us to live our harmful or difficult for us to live our harmful or difficult for us to live our lives. But anxiety lives. But anxiety lives. But anxiety is a good thing. It's saying there's is a good thing. It's saying there's is a good thing. It's saying there's perceived uncertainty around the future. perceived uncertainty around the future. perceived uncertainty around the future. Like, "I'm anxious about how I'm going Like, "I'm anxious about how I'm going Like, "I'm anxious about how I'm going to act in this environment or how I'm to act in this environment or how I'm to act in this environment or how I'm going to be perceived in this going to be perceived in this going to be perceived in this environment." It's not a bad thing cuz environment." It's not a bad thing cuz environment." It's not a bad thing cuz you want to be perceived well. you want to be perceived well. you want to be perceived well. But if you automatically assume it's But if you automatically assume it's But if you automatically assume it's bad, bad, bad, then then then it's going to put you on the path to it's going to put you on the path to it's going to put you on the path to dysregulation. So, if we accept the idea that all So, if we accept the idea that all emotions are okay. Yeah. But that the emotions are okay. Yeah. But that the emotions are okay. Yeah. But that the expression of all emotions is expression of all emotions is expression of all emotions is in every context is not okay. That it in every context is not okay. That it in every context is not okay. That it should be context specific. should be context specific. should be context specific. >> Yes. Um I actually think that provides >> Yes. Um I actually think that provides >> Yes. Um I actually think that provides some freedom. I can feel that freedom. some freedom. I can feel that freedom. some freedom. I can feel that freedom. Like it's okay to be super angry. It's Like it's okay to be super angry. It's Like it's okay to be super angry. It's okay to be frustrated. It's okay to be okay to be frustrated. It's okay to be okay to be frustrated. It's okay to be anxious. Uh but how that's expressed is anxious. Uh but how that's expressed is anxious. Uh but how that's expressed is what's critical. what's critical. what's critical. Uh it makes good intuitive sense. I Uh it makes good intuitive sense. I Uh it makes good intuitive sense. I think that what's hard to know think that what's hard to know think that what's hard to know is what to do with the emotion is what to do with the emotion is what to do with the emotion if there is no outward expression of it. if there is no outward expression of it. if there is no outward expression of it. Like like where should it go? Well, it Like like where should it go? Well, it Like like where should it go? Well, it doesn't have to go anywhere sometimes. doesn't have to go anywhere sometimes. doesn't have to go anywhere sometimes. Sometimes it can just be. Mhm. And Sometimes it can just be. Mhm. And Sometimes it can just be. Mhm. And that's a big part of regulation, which that's a big part of regulation, which that's a big part of regulation, which is that a lot of people think emotion is that a lot of people think emotion is that a lot of people think emotion regulation is getting rid of a feeling. regulation is getting rid of a feeling. regulation is getting rid of a feeling. It's not what it is. It's just having It's not what it is. It's just having It's not what it is. It's just having another relationship to it. Like I've another relationship to it. Like I've another relationship to it. Like I've been I'm 56. been I'm 56. been I'm 56. I've had anxiety, lived with it for a I've had anxiety, lived with it for a I've had anxiety, lived with it for a lot of my life. lot of my life. lot of my life. But sometimes I just say hello to it. But sometimes I just say hello to it. But sometimes I just say hello to it. It's like, "Hey, how you doing today?" It's like, "Hey, how you doing today?" It's like, "Hey, how you doing today?" And it goes away pretty quickly. Or it And it goes away pretty quickly. Or it And it goes away pretty quickly. Or it just sits there. I think that's the just sits there. I think that's the just sits there. I think that's the other thing about emotion regulation other thing about emotion regulation other thing about emotion regulation that people kind of misunderstand. They that people kind of misunderstand. They that people kind of misunderstand. They think it's like, "I got to check in with think it's like, "I got to check in with think it's like, "I got to check in with how I'm feeling all day long and then how I'm feeling all day long and then how I'm feeling all day long and then regulate. Check in regulate." Like you'd regulate. Check in regulate." Like you'd regulate. Check in regulate." Like you'd become psychotic if you did that all day become psychotic if you did that all day become psychotic if you did that all day long. Most of the time our emotions are long. Most of the time our emotions are long. Most of the time our emotions are in the background. You know, like if you in the background. You know, like if you in the background. You know, like if you thought about your feelings all day thought about your feelings all day thought about your feelings all day long, you wouldn't be able to do this long, you wouldn't be able to do this long, you wouldn't be able to do this podcast. Like that's unproductive. podcast. Like that's unproductive. podcast. Like that's unproductive. Emotions matter when there's a shift in Emotions matter when there's a shift in Emotions matter when there's a shift in our environment or the relationships, our environment or the relationships, our environment or the relationships, you know. If you said something that you know. If you said something that you know. If you said something that offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I have to make a choice in that moment, have to make a choice in that moment, have to make a choice in that moment, like how do I manage it? That's where like how do I manage it? That's where like how do I manage it? That's where the magic happens. But on a day-to-day the magic happens. But on a day-to-day the magic happens. But on a day-to-day basis, thank God we're not, you know, basis, thank God we're not, you know, basis, thank God we're not, you know, we wouldn't want to do that. we wouldn't want to do that. we wouldn't want to do that. I would like to take a quick break and I would like to take a quick break and I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv. acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv. acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light Joovv makes medical grade red light Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. therapy devices. therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have Now, if there's one thing that I have Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, consistently emphasized on this podcast, consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light it's the incredible impact that light it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health. can have on our biology and our health. can have on our biology and our health. Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red talked about a lot on this podcast, red talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near infrared, and infrared light light, near infrared, and infrared light light, near infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have have been specifically shown to have have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous positive effects on improving numerous positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health. aspects of cellular and organ health. aspects of cellular and organ health. These include faster muscle recovery, These include faster muscle recovery, These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improved skin health, wound healing, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and improvements in acne, reduced pain and improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial inflammation, improved mitochondrial inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in function, and even improvements in function, and even improvements in vision. Nowadays, there are a lot of red vision. Nowadays, there are a lot of red vision. Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets light devices out there, but what sets light devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my Joovv lights apart, and why they're my Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is preferred red light therapy device, is preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven that they use clinically proven that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the wavelengths, meaning they use the wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelength of red light, near specific wavelength of red light, near specific wavelength of red light, near infrared, and infrared light in infrared, and infrared light in infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal combination to trigger the optimal combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use cellular adaptations. Personally, I use cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three the Joovv whole body panel about three the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about to four times a week, usually for about to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home the Joovv handheld light both at home the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you would like to and when I travel. If you would like to and when I travel. If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of off select products for listeners of off select products for listeners of this podcast. To learn more, visit this podcast. To learn more, visit this podcast. To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled j o o v v dot com slash Joovv, spelled j o o v v dot com slash Joovv, spelled j o o v v dot com slash Huberman. Again, that's j o o v v dot Huberman. Again, that's j o o v v dot Huberman. Again, that's j o o v v dot com slash Huberman. Today's episode is com slash Huberman. Today's episode is com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo. One of the also brought to us by Lingo. One of the also brought to us by Lingo. One of the most important factors in your short and most important factors in your short and most important factors in your short and long-term health is your body's ability long-term health is your body's ability long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose over time. Glucose to manage glucose over time. Glucose to manage glucose over time. Glucose directly impacts our brain function, directly impacts our brain function, directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy. You want your glucose mood, and energy. You want your glucose mood, and energy. You want your glucose relatively stable across the day without relatively stable across the day without relatively stable across the day without big peaks or valleys. This is why I use big peaks or valleys. This is why I use big peaks or valleys. This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor and app the continuous glucose monitor and app the continuous glucose monitor and app from Lingo by Abbott. Lingo provides from Lingo by Abbott. Lingo provides from Lingo by Abbott. Lingo provides minute-by-minute glucose data directly minute-by-minute glucose data directly minute-by-minute glucose data directly within the app, showing you how your within the app, showing you how your within the app, showing you how your glucose responds to food, exercise, and glucose responds to food, exercise, and glucose responds to food, exercise, and stress. This information can help you stress. This information can help you stress. This information can help you make smarter choices to support your make smarter choices to support your make smarter choices to support your health both now and in the long term. health both now and in the long term. health both now and in the long term. The CDC estimates that more than one in The CDC estimates that more than one in The CDC estimates that more than one in three American adults has prediabetes, three American adults has prediabetes, three American adults has prediabetes, and that many of these people don't know and that many of these people don't know and that many of these people don't know they are living with prediabetes. they are living with prediabetes. they are living with prediabetes. Visibility about how your diet and Visibility about how your diet and Visibility about how your diet and activity affect your glucose can be the activity affect your glucose can be the activity affect your glucose can be the first step toward informed conversations first step toward informed conversations first step toward informed conversations with your doctor and making smarter with your doctor and making smarter with your doctor and making smarter daily choices. If you'd like to try daily choices. If you'd like to try daily choices. If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK 10% off a listeners in the US and UK 10% off a listeners in the US and UK 10% off a 4-week plan. Just visit 4-week plan. Just visit 4-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman hellolingo.com/huberman hellolingo.com/huberman for more information. Terms and for more information. Terms and for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's conditions apply. Again, that's conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman. I'd love to poke at some of the I'd love to poke at some of the assumptions that I know I have, but I assumptions that I know I have, but I assumptions that I know I have, but I wonder if other people have as well. wonder if other people have as well. wonder if other people have as well. >> My dad's from South America, and I >> My dad's from South America, and I >> My dad's from South America, and I remember long ago he said because he remember long ago he said because he remember long ago he said because he went to formal schools, um he said that went to formal schools, um he said that went to formal schools, um he said that he was raised with this terrible idea. he was raised with this terrible idea. he was raised with this terrible idea. He called it terrible. That um if He called it terrible. That um if He called it terrible. That um if somebody was happy, and they smiled a somebody was happy, and they smiled a somebody was happy, and they smiled a lot, that they were stupid. And I said, lot, that they were stupid. And I said, lot, that they were stupid. And I said, "What is that about?" And he said, "What is that about?" And he said, "What is that about?" And he said, "Well, that came, in his words, from the "Well, that came, in his words, from the "Well, that came, in his words, from the British school system where uh the idea British school system where uh the idea British school system where uh the idea was that you were supposed to be um was that you were supposed to be um was that you were supposed to be um skeptical of things. And that if you skeptical of things. And that if you skeptical of things. And that if you were happy or happy-go-lucky, were happy or happy-go-lucky, were happy or happy-go-lucky, and you weren't drinking, and you weren't drinking, and you weren't drinking, that people would assume that you were that people would assume that you were that people would assume that you were an idiot because you weren't bothered by an idiot because you weren't bothered by an idiot because you weren't bothered by the problems in the world, and you were the problems in the world, and you were the problems in the world, and you were accepting of the things that you heard accepting of the things that you heard accepting of the things that you heard and were told. In other words, you're an and were told. In other words, you're an and were told. In other words, you're an idiot." idiot." idiot." And my dad's a very happy person now, And my dad's a very happy person now, And my dad's a very happy person now, and and and he has talked about, you know, having to he has talked about, you know, having to he has talked about, you know, having to break that mold, that like it's okay to break that mold, that like it's okay to break that mold, that like it's okay to wake up and take a walk and and be wake up and take a walk and and be wake up and take a walk and and be happy. That it's okay to be happy and so happy. That it's okay to be happy and so happy. That it's okay to be happy and so I That's just one thing that I I think I I That's just one thing that I I think I I That's just one thing that I I think I grew up thinking, too, and maybe not to grew up thinking, too, and maybe not to grew up thinking, too, and maybe not to that extreme, that that if especially in that extreme, that that if especially in that extreme, that that if especially in academia, like if you're not just like academia, like if you're not just like academia, like if you're not just like to be happy is to not be discerning. to be happy is to not be discerning. to be happy is to not be discerning. It's a totally false, right? It's a totally false, right? It's a totally false, right? >> Of course. And now, we're a long way >> Of course. And now, we're a long way >> Of course. And now, we're a long way from England right now. Um from England right now. Um from England right now. Um uh and that's probably something more of uh and that's probably something more of uh and that's probably something more of my dad's generation than mine, but I my dad's generation than mine, but I my dad's generation than mine, but I think think think the idea nowadays does seem to be that the idea nowadays does seem to be that the idea nowadays does seem to be that if you're happy-go-lucky and you're if you're happy-go-lucky and you're if you're happy-go-lucky and you're feeling good, feeling good, feeling good, that you must not be thinking about all that you must not be thinking about all that you must not be thinking about all the terrible things going on in the the terrible things going on in the the terrible things going on in the world, or that it's insensitive to those world, or that it's insensitive to those world, or that it's insensitive to those that are suffering, etc., etc. I'd love that are suffering, etc., etc. I'd love that are suffering, etc., etc. I'd love your thoughts on this this idea that we your thoughts on this this idea that we your thoughts on this this idea that we don't give ourselves permission to feel don't give ourselves permission to feel don't give ourselves permission to feel as good as we might feel as good as we might feel as good as we might feel because of some social pressure or because of some social pressure or because of some social pressure or assumptions that we've internalized. assumptions that we've internalized. assumptions that we've internalized. Which is all learned. Which is all learned. Which is all learned. And so this is these are learned And so this is these are learned And so this is these are learned phenomenon. phenomenon. phenomenon. And it's sometimes And it's sometimes And it's sometimes outside influence. So talk about outside influence. So talk about outside influence. So talk about happiness. You know, as I was writing, happiness. You know, as I was writing, happiness. You know, as I was writing, and I was doing the chapter on mindsets and I was doing the chapter on mindsets and I was doing the chapter on mindsets around emotion, and talking about this around emotion, and talking about this around emotion, and talking about this relationship with different emotions. relationship with different emotions. relationship with different emotions. And you know, we could play around with And you know, we could play around with And you know, we could play around with this all day long. I could say, "What's this all day long. I could say, "What's this all day long. I could say, "What's your relationship to anger? your relationship to anger? your relationship to anger? What's your relationship to happiness What's your relationship to happiness What's your relationship to happiness and contentment?" And all of a sudden and contentment?" And all of a sudden and contentment?" And all of a sudden you start realizing, "Wow, I have a you start realizing, "Wow, I have a you start realizing, "Wow, I have a complicated relationship with my complicated relationship with my complicated relationship with my emotions." emotions." emotions." And I was thinking about it with And I was thinking about it with And I was thinking about it with happiness, too. And for me, what's happiness, too. And for me, what's happiness, too. And for me, what's interesting, which is different interesting, which is different interesting, which is different completely from your dad's, is because completely from your dad's, is because completely from your dad's, is because of my kind of tough childhood and a lot of my kind of tough childhood and a lot of my kind of tough childhood and a lot of bullying, of bullying, of bullying, is that I would go to school one day and is that I would go to school one day and is that I would go to school one day and I would be happy. And I'd see the I would be happy. And I'd see the I would be happy. And I'd see the bullies, and all of a sudden they'd say bullies, and all of a sudden they'd say bullies, and all of a sudden they'd say things like, "You know, what are you so things like, "You know, what are you so things like, "You know, what are you so happy about today, Bracket?" happy about today, Bracket?" happy about today, Bracket?" And I didn't realize that And I didn't realize that And I didn't realize that until I was writing. And then I would until I was writing. And then I would until I was writing. And then I would get on stage and give a I do a lot of get on stage and give a I do a lot of get on stage and give a I do a lot of public speaking. public speaking. public speaking. And I'd be standing there like feeling And I'd be standing there like feeling And I'd be standing there like feeling really good with my speaking. really good with my speaking. really good with my speaking. And then I'd get the applause at the And then I'd get the applause at the And then I'd get the applause at the end, and I would start kind of looking end, and I would start kind of looking end, and I would start kind of looking down. down. down. And I started realizing, And I started realizing, And I started realizing, I'm uncomfortable being happy. I'm uncomfortable being happy. I'm uncomfortable being happy. Like I'm I'm waiting for something to go Like I'm I'm waiting for something to go Like I'm I'm waiting for something to go wrong wrong wrong because, you know, in my childhood, like because, you know, in my childhood, like because, you know, in my childhood, like happy meant like, you know, we're going happy meant like, you know, we're going happy meant like, you know, we're going to bring you down. We all have these to bring you down. We all have these to bring you down. We all have these kind of developmental kind of developmental kind of developmental um connections, for lack of a better um connections, for lack of a better um connections, for lack of a better term, to our different emotions. term, to our different emotions. term, to our different emotions. And I think that And I think that And I think that it gets back to the phenomenon. There's it gets back to the phenomenon. There's it gets back to the phenomenon. There's no good or bad emotions. no good or bad emotions. no good or bad emotions. Life Firstly, some of it is genetic and Life Firstly, some of it is genetic and Life Firstly, some of it is genetic and biological, you know, our proclivity to biological, you know, our proclivity to biological, you know, our proclivity to experience certain emotions. experience certain emotions. experience certain emotions. The regulation piece is all learned. The regulation piece is all learned. The regulation piece is all learned. Like you're not born with a you know, Like you're not born with a you know, Like you're not born with a you know, a pocket full of evidence-based a pocket full of evidence-based a pocket full of evidence-based strategies to regulate strategies to regulate strategies to regulate >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like >> Like >> Like you know, I don't know about you growing you know, I don't know about you growing you know, I don't know about you growing up, you know, my father was very up, you know, my father was very up, you know, my father was very different. My father was the angry guy different. My father was the angry guy different. My father was the angry guy and he'd say, "Son, you got to toughen and he'd say, "Son, you got to toughen and he'd say, "Son, you got to toughen up." up." up." I'm like, "Dad, look at me, you know, I'm like, "Dad, look at me, you know, I'm like, "Dad, look at me, you know, come on. Let's move on. It's not come on. Let's move on. It's not come on. Let's move on. It's not happening." happening." happening." And you know that I have a 5th degree And you know that I have a 5th degree And you know that I have a 5th degree black belt, I became the tough guy that black belt, I became the tough guy that black belt, I became the tough guy that my father wanted me to be, but my father wanted me to be, but my father wanted me to be, but nevertheless, you know, nevertheless, you know, nevertheless, you know, what does that even mean? what does that even mean? what does that even mean? But, you know, growing up when I was But, you know, growing up when I was But, you know, growing up when I was struggling, my parents missed a lot of struggling, my parents missed a lot of struggling, my parents missed a lot of the cues. Come down the stairs, I didn't the cues. Come down the stairs, I didn't the cues. Come down the stairs, I didn't have my father say, "Son, I'm noticing a have my father say, "Son, I'm noticing a have my father say, "Son, I'm noticing a shift in your emotions today. Your shift in your emotions today. Your shift in your emotions today. Your posture's different. Your facial posture's different. Your facial posture's different. Your facial expression is different. Let me give you expression is different. Let me give you expression is different. Let me give you a research-based strategy to help you a research-based strategy to help you a research-based strategy to help you regulate your anxiety, stress, pressure, regulate your anxiety, stress, pressure, regulate your anxiety, stress, pressure, fear." fear." fear." No, it was just There was no No, it was just There was no No, it was just There was no It wasn't even a construct. It wasn't even a construct. It wasn't even a construct. I mean, I don't know, but did you grow I mean, I don't know, but did you grow I mean, I don't know, but did you grow up with a up with a up with a a concept of emotion regulation? a concept of emotion regulation? a concept of emotion regulation? Definitely. You did? And it Definitely. You did? And it Definitely. You did? And it >> was There was a big gender split. In my >> was There was a big gender split. In my >> was There was a big gender split. In my home, I had the home, I had the home, I had the sort of belief sort of belief sort of belief uh based on the context that women could uh based on the context that women could uh based on the context that women could express their emotions, big or small, express their emotions, big or small, express their emotions, big or small, and that uh and that uh and that uh men weren't supposed to lose their men weren't supposed to lose their men weren't supposed to lose their temper. Men weren't supposed to uh be temper. Men weren't supposed to uh be temper. Men weren't supposed to uh be angry. That's interesting. It's kind of angry. That's interesting. It's kind of angry. That's interesting. It's kind of counter to the way people think about it counter to the way people think about it counter to the way people think about it nowadays, right? nowadays, right? nowadays, right? >> Oh, yeah. The men are like the more >> Oh, yeah. The men are like the more >> Oh, yeah. The men are like the more power you have, the more anger you can power you have, the more anger you can power you have, the more anger you can express. express. express. >> Oh, the complete opposite of that. In >> Oh, the complete opposite of that. In >> Oh, the complete opposite of that. In fact, and I don't think he'll mind, my fact, and I don't think he'll mind, my fact, and I don't think he'll mind, my dad's been on this podcast and we have a dad's been on this podcast and we have a dad's been on this podcast and we have a great relationship uh now, and um and great relationship uh now, and um and great relationship uh now, and um and we've done work and it's been awesome. I we've done work and it's been awesome. I we've done work and it's been awesome. I mean, it's really it really has. I mean, mean, it's really it really has. I mean, mean, it's really it really has. I mean, uh uh uh and I remember when I was a kid, if he and I remember when I was a kid, if he and I remember when I was a kid, if he got angry, he would blink. And I And now got angry, he would blink. And I And now got angry, he would blink. And I And now I know that as like behavioral I know that as like behavioral I know that as like behavioral suppression, you know? Um he was like suppression, you know? Um he was like suppression, you know? Um he was like blinking, but I can't ever remember my blinking, but I can't ever remember my blinking, but I can't ever remember my dad having an outburst ever. dad having an outburst ever. dad having an outburst ever. So I just internalize this idea like So I just internalize this idea like So I just internalize this idea like okay, you you don't have outbursts. But okay, you you don't have outbursts. But okay, you you don't have outbursts. But I have a certain side of my family that I have a certain side of my family that I have a certain side of my family that my extended family that's my extended family that's my extended family that's from New Jersey. Oh, okay. Yeah. Where from New Jersey. Oh, okay. Yeah. Where from New Jersey. Oh, okay. Yeah. Where words are sometimes used as weapons. words are sometimes used as weapons. words are sometimes used as weapons. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> And [clears throat] anger is a bit more >> And [clears throat] anger is a bit more >> And [clears throat] anger is a bit more outward sometimes at least in that side. outward sometimes at least in that side. outward sometimes at least in that side. And then I have a South American side And then I have a South American side And then I have a South American side where things are more where things are more where things are more you know, formal and boxed away and and you know, formal and boxed away and and you know, formal and boxed away and and I think I internalized a bit of both and I think I internalized a bit of both and I think I internalized a bit of both and and and and so I have all sorts of constructs around so I have all sorts of constructs around so I have all sorts of constructs around who's allowed to express who's allowed to express who's allowed to express emotions and what extremes but now I emotions and what extremes but now I emotions and what extremes but now I didn't observe a lot of uh didn't observe a lot of uh didn't observe a lot of uh anger or maybe a little suppression. anger or maybe a little suppression. anger or maybe a little suppression. Lots of suppression. Lots of Lots of suppression. Lots of Lots of suppression. Lots of suppression. suppression. suppression. >> regulation. It just Yeah. Not the >> regulation. It just Yeah. Not the >> regulation. It just Yeah. Not the adaptive kind usually. Right. Right. And adaptive kind usually. Right. Right. And adaptive kind usually. Right. Right. And I you know, I probably averaged two you I you know, I probably averaged two you I you know, I probably averaged two you know, in my own life. But in terms of know, in my own life. But in terms of know, in my own life. But in terms of happiness, I I think uh the same thing happiness, I I think uh the same thing happiness, I I think uh the same thing now that I I think about it that um so now that I I think about it that um so now that I I think about it that um so okay okay okay for for for women to be fully expressive and for men women to be fully expressive and for men women to be fully expressive and for men to be you know, it's a bit more of the to be you know, it's a bit more of the to be you know, it's a bit more of the you know, it's kind of the 1950s model you know, it's kind of the 1950s model you know, it's kind of the 1950s model was that was very present in in my home was that was very present in in my home was that was very present in in my home and in my mind. In my mind. Yeah. Yeah, and in my mind. In my mind. Yeah. Yeah, and in my mind. In my mind. Yeah. Yeah, I can think with happiness as with any I can think with happiness as with any I can think with happiness as with any emotion emotion emotion it's about it's about it's about like the time and the place for like the time and the place for like the time and the place for happiness. Like you can't we have happiness. Like you can't we have happiness. Like you can't we have research that shows that people who research that shows that people who research that shows that people who strive to be happy all the time actually strive to be happy all the time actually strive to be happy all the time actually are more miserable. are more miserable. are more miserable. Because it's hard to Because it's hard to Because it's hard to live up to that all the time. live up to that all the time. live up to that all the time. You know, people who strive for more You know, people who strive for more You know, people who strive for more contentment in their life actually seem contentment in their life actually seem contentment in their life actually seem to have greater well-being. to have greater well-being. to have greater well-being. Um and so I just think again, it goes Um and so I just think again, it goes Um and so I just think again, it goes back to these mindsets around emotions back to these mindsets around emotions back to these mindsets around emotions that that that there's no good or bad emotion. there's no good or bad emotion. there's no good or bad emotion. Anger is fine. Anger is fine. Anger is fine. Obviously if it's too intense and it's Obviously if it's too intense and it's Obviously if it's too intense and it's lasting too long, it's probably not lasting too long, it's probably not lasting too long, it's probably not going to be good. Happiness is something going to be good. Happiness is something going to be good. Happiness is something that we should, you know, experience, that we should, you know, experience, that we should, you know, experience, but you know, if we're attached to it, but you know, if we're attached to it, but you know, if we're attached to it, it's going to be problematic because it's going to be problematic because it's going to be problematic because every day is not a sunny day. There are every day is not a sunny day. There are every day is not a sunny day. There are rainy days, too, and you got to be rainy days, too, and you got to be rainy days, too, and you got to be comfortable with the rainy days. comfortable with the rainy days. comfortable with the rainy days. And And And the important thing also is not just our the important thing also is not just our the important thing also is not just our feelings about our feelings. It's also feelings about our feelings. It's also feelings about our feelings. It's also about our mindsets around our capacity about our mindsets around our capacity about our mindsets around our capacity to deal with those feelings. Like, do I to deal with those feelings. Like, do I to deal with those feelings. Like, do I believe I am capable of managing my believe I am capable of managing my believe I am capable of managing my anger? Do I believe I'm capable of anger? Do I believe I'm capable of anger? Do I believe I'm capable of dealing with the disappointment? And we dealing with the disappointment? And we dealing with the disappointment? And we find a distribution of scores for that, find a distribution of scores for that, find a distribution of scores for that, too. Like, going back to my dad, we have too. Like, going back to my dad, we have too. Like, going back to my dad, we have very different fathers. My father would very different fathers. My father would very different fathers. My father would say things like, "Son, this is where I say things like, "Son, this is where I say things like, "Son, this is where I deal with my anger. You're going to have deal with my anger. You're going to have deal with my anger. You're going to have to get used to it." to get used to it." to get used to it." You know, I would say now, like, "Sounds You know, I would say now, like, "Sounds You know, I would say now, like, "Sounds like you got a fixed mindset, dad. Like, like you got a fixed mindset, dad. Like, like you got a fixed mindset, dad. Like, there are other options, you know, to to there are other options, you know, to to there are other options, you know, to to deal with your anger." But he was sort deal with your anger." But he was sort deal with your anger." But he was sort of like, "This is the way I am. You're of like, "This is the way I am. You're of like, "This is the way I am. You're going to have to deal with it. No going to have to deal with it. No going to have to deal with it. No learning interests." learning interests." learning interests." Whereas nowadays, I hope to help people Whereas nowadays, I hope to help people Whereas nowadays, I hope to help people see, "Wait a minute. see, "Wait a minute. see, "Wait a minute. Is that emotion working for you in your Is that emotion working for you in your Is that emotion working for you in your relationships or not? If it's not, relationships or not? If it's not, relationships or not? If it's not, there are alternatives." there are alternatives." there are alternatives." We were talking about boys and men quite We were talking about boys and men quite We were talking about boys and men quite a bit already here. So, maybe we just a bit already here. So, maybe we just a bit already here. So, maybe we just continue in that in that direction, even continue in that in that direction, even continue in that in that direction, even though we will touch on um though we will touch on um though we will touch on um uh girls and women and uh emotions as it uh girls and women and uh emotions as it uh girls and women and uh emotions as it relates to them, too. I I hear a lot relates to them, too. I I hear a lot relates to them, too. I I hear a lot nowadays [clears throat] nowadays [clears throat] nowadays [clears throat] about about about problems for boys and young men in problems for boys and young men in problems for boys and young men in emotion regulation, in defining emotion regulation, in defining emotion regulation, in defining masculinity. Um I'm obviously interested masculinity. Um I'm obviously interested masculinity. Um I'm obviously interested in this, but I also acknowledge that I'm in this, but I also acknowledge that I'm in this, but I also acknowledge that I'm Gen X. I was born in 1975. Things were Gen X. I was born in 1975. Things were Gen X. I was born in 1975. Things were very different, and I and I know I have very different, and I and I know I have very different, and I and I know I have a giant blind spot to their experience, a giant blind spot to their experience, a giant blind spot to their experience, right? I just do. I acknowledge that right? I just do. I acknowledge that right? I just do. I acknowledge that because because because I don't really have a finger on the I don't really have a finger on the I don't really have a finger on the pulse of of what life is like for a pulse of of what life is like for a pulse of of what life is like for a 15-year-old or 12-year-old or 15-year-old or 12-year-old or 15-year-old or 12-year-old or 20-year-old guy out there. What are the 20-year-old guy out there. What are the 20-year-old guy out there. What are the pain points and what's going right? pain points and what's going right? pain points and what's going right? Yeah, there's a lot going on and I think Yeah, there's a lot going on and I think Yeah, there's a lot going on and I think probably the big issue here with gender probably the big issue here with gender probably the big issue here with gender is vulnerability. is vulnerability. is vulnerability. That historically, this is not just now, That historically, this is not just now, That historically, this is not just now, this is going back to when we were kids, this is going back to when we were kids, this is going back to when we were kids, when our parents were kids, you know, when our parents were kids, you know, when our parents were kids, you know, go back to other periods in go back to other periods in go back to other periods in you know, in the in time is that you know, in the in time is that you know, in the in time is that vulnerability, especially for men, is vulnerability, especially for men, is vulnerability, especially for men, is weak. You got to be tough. You you're weak. You got to be tough. You you're weak. You got to be tough. You you're the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the person who has to, you know, make the person who has to, you know, make the person who has to, you know, make the ends meet. You're the, you know, the the ends meet. You're the, you know, the the ends meet. You're the, you know, the hunter-gatherer. hunter-gatherer. hunter-gatherer. And obviously times have changed and And obviously times have changed and And obviously times have changed and what we find is that what we find is that what we find is that the thought the thought the thought today for many boys and men today for many boys and men today for many boys and men to be to be to be emotional, firstly emotional alone has a emotional, firstly emotional alone has a emotional, firstly emotional alone has a connotation of feminine and out of connotation of feminine and out of connotation of feminine and out of control. control. control. That's just the way people think about That's just the way people think about That's just the way people think about it. it. it. >> Still? Yes. Really? Wow. When you say, >> Still? Yes. Really? Wow. When you say, >> Still? Yes. Really? Wow. When you say, "Don't be so emotional." "Don't be so emotional." "Don't be so emotional." It's It's It's considered to be a negative thing. It's considered to be a negative thing. It's considered to be a negative thing. It's considered to be feminine and it's considered to be feminine and it's considered to be feminine and it's considered to be like a hysterical. considered to be like a hysterical. considered to be like a hysterical. Um that's why we I call emotions skills, Um that's why we I call emotions skills, Um that's why we I call emotions skills, not emotional skills. not emotional skills. not emotional skills. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> That's anyway. So, vulnerability is a a >> That's anyway. So, vulnerability is a a >> That's anyway. So, vulnerability is a a big piece of it. Let's big piece of it. Let's big piece of it. Let's This is going to be a great conversation This is going to be a great conversation This is going to be a great conversation between two guys. So, between two guys. So, between two guys. So, what's your relationship to what's your relationship to what's your relationship to vulnerability? vulnerability? vulnerability? Totally context dependent. Okay. I mean, Totally context dependent. Okay. I mean, Totally context dependent. Okay. I mean, there are people who um not afraid at there are people who um not afraid at there are people who um not afraid at all to all to all to cry in front of. Mhm. And there are cry in front of. Mhm. And there are cry in front of. Mhm. And there are contexts and people that I would never contexts and people that I would never contexts and people that I would never cry. I mean, I've cried on very public cry. I mean, I've cried on very public cry. I mean, I've cried on very public podcasts, too. Mhm. Maybe three. One podcasts, too. Mhm. Maybe three. One podcasts, too. Mhm. Maybe three. One here, when Martha Beck came on, she here, when Martha Beck came on, she here, when Martha Beck came on, she really really really she uh she wasn't trying, but uh you she uh she wasn't trying, but uh you she uh she wasn't trying, but uh you know, it was happening. And then on know, it was happening. And then on know, it was happening. And then on Steven Bartlett's podcast, I think Steven Bartlett's podcast, I think Steven Bartlett's podcast, I think perhaps on another and it was tough. I perhaps on another and it was tough. I perhaps on another and it was tough. I mean, it was I I didn't want to watch mean, it was I I didn't want to watch mean, it was I I didn't want to watch those clips, but I'm glad I did it. Um those clips, but I'm glad I did it. Um those clips, but I'm glad I did it. Um Uh so it's totally context-dependent. Uh so it's totally context-dependent. Uh so it's totally context-dependent. Yeah, and that makes sense. Yeah, and that makes sense. Yeah, and that makes sense. What I'm really pushing for is like What I'm really pushing for is like What I'm really pushing for is like around emotion and about talking about around emotion and about talking about around emotion and about talking about feelings. Mhm. feelings. Mhm. feelings. Mhm. And so And so And so what we find is that boys generally feel what we find is that boys generally feel what we find is that boys generally feel more inhibited just saying how they more inhibited just saying how they more inhibited just saying how they feel, especially when it comes to kind feel, especially when it comes to kind feel, especially when it comes to kind of the sad, disappointment, of the sad, disappointment, of the sad, disappointment, you know, ashamed emotions. It's much you know, ashamed emotions. It's much you know, ashamed emotions. It's much easier to express the anger, you know, easier to express the anger, you know, easier to express the anger, you know, and the outwardly expressive emotions, and the outwardly expressive emotions, and the outwardly expressive emotions, but the deep ones that are but the deep ones that are but the deep ones that are self-conscious, self-conscious, self-conscious, you know, that make you vulnerable, you know, that make you vulnerable, you know, that make you vulnerable, um tends to be tough. And uh and the um tends to be tough. And uh and the um tends to be tough. And uh and the question is why is that the case? What question is why is that the case? What question is why is that the case? What are your hypotheses? Why would it be are your hypotheses? Why would it be are your hypotheses? Why would it be that so many boys feel that so many boys feel that so many boys feel like they're going to be perceived as like they're going to be perceived as like they're going to be perceived as feminine if they say they're feminine if they say they're feminine if they say they're disappointed or sad disappointed or sad disappointed or sad or ashamed? or ashamed? or ashamed? What immediately comes to mind is What immediately comes to mind is What immediately comes to mind is that somehow that somehow that somehow it is linked with it is linked with it is linked with the word incapable or incapability. the word incapable or incapability. the word incapable or incapability. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. There's an incredible video of David There's an incredible video of David There's an incredible video of David Goggins breaking down crying on stage. Goggins breaking down crying on stage. Goggins breaking down crying on stage. Um and he was celebrated for that. Um and he was celebrated for that. Um and he was celebrated for that. But David Goggins did a lot of things But David Goggins did a lot of things But David Goggins did a lot of things beforehand. beforehand. beforehand. >> And no one denies his capability. >> And no one denies his capability. >> And no one denies his capability. >> Yeah. His ability. >> Yeah. His ability. >> Yeah. His ability. Uh so when he cried it was like, Uh so when he cried it was like, Uh so when he cried it was like, "Awesome. He's willing to go to this "Awesome. He's willing to go to this "Awesome. He's willing to go to this really hard place." Yet another really hard place." Yet another really hard place." Yet another difficult thing that David can do that difficult thing that David can do that difficult thing that David can do that most people can't do. most people can't do. most people can't do. >> And you just go like, "Awesome." And >> And you just go like, "Awesome." And >> And you just go like, "Awesome." And he's owning it. And he's owning it. And he's owning it. And I step back from that and realize I step back from that and realize I step back from that and realize that we already knew former Navy SEAL, that we already knew former Navy SEAL, that we already knew former Navy SEAL, went from 300-plus pounds to this fit went from 300-plus pounds to this fit went from 300-plus pounds to this fit individual, like individual, like individual, like you know, Goggins. He's a verb, an you know, Goggins. He's a verb, an you know, Goggins. He's a verb, an adjective, and and a you know, and a adjective, and and a you know, and a adjective, and and a you know, and a pronoun, right? So it's like pronoun, right? So it's like you know, if someone else just breaks you know, if someone else just breaks down on stage, you know, down on stage, you know, down on stage, you know, okay, of okay, of okay, of "I hope this guy can make it in life." "I hope this guy can make it in life." "I hope this guy can make it in life." That's the the narrative. That's the the narrative. That's the the narrative. >> like weak. You worry sometimes for >> like weak. You worry sometimes for >> like weak. You worry sometimes for people like that. I don't worry about people like that. I don't worry about people like that. I don't worry about David Goggins. Because he's a superstar David Goggins. Because he's a superstar David Goggins. Because he's a superstar and we have a different mindset around and we have a different mindset around and we have a different mindset around him again. And so he has the permission him again. And so he has the permission him again. And so he has the permission to do whatever the hell he wants. to do whatever the hell he wants. to do whatever the hell he wants. Yeah, that permission thing, if you'll Yeah, that permission thing, if you'll Yeah, that permission thing, if you'll forgive me, but this this notion of forgive me, but this this notion of forgive me, but this this notion of earned the right, earned the right, earned the right, I mean, there are I mean, there are I mean, there are people like James Cameron who wrote all people like James Cameron who wrote all people like James Cameron who wrote all these movies, most famous for like doing these movies, most famous for like doing these movies, most famous for like doing all these super difficult things, and all these super difficult things, and all these super difficult things, and then a few years back was like then a few years back was like then a few years back was like claiming that testosterone poisoned men claiming that testosterone poisoned men claiming that testosterone poisoned men and that his testosterone was the worst and that his testosterone was the worst and that his testosterone was the worst thing and everyone that liked his movies thing and everyone that liked his movies thing and everyone that liked his movies said, "Hey, [clears throat] listen, easy said, "Hey, [clears throat] listen, easy said, "Hey, [clears throat] listen, easy for you to say now. You built that for you to say now. You built that for you to say now. You built that career career career on some of that." on some of that." on some of that." So, it wasn't, in my opinion, taken that So, it wasn't, in my opinion, taken that So, it wasn't, in my opinion, taken that seriously. seriously. seriously. He may not like it if he hears this, but He may not like it if he hears this, but He may not like it if he hears this, but like I'm like, "Pff, that's like when like I'm like, "Pff, that's like when like I'm like, "Pff, that's like when our colleagues are like, 'Oh, I'm no our colleagues are like, 'Oh, I'm no our colleagues are like, 'Oh, I'm no longer going to publish in Nature and longer going to publish in Nature and longer going to publish in Nature and Science. I'm going to go to these like, Science. I'm going to go to these like, Science. I'm going to go to these like, you know, these [snorts] open-source you know, these [snorts] open-source you know, these [snorts] open-source journals.'" Like, you got in the journals.'" Like, you got in the journals.'" Like, you got in the National Academy on Nature and Science National Academy on Nature and Science National Academy on Nature and Science papers, so like, you're not kidding papers, so like, you're not kidding papers, so like, you're not kidding anybody. Well, that you're making an anybody. Well, that you're making an anybody. Well, that you're making an important point, which is that once you, important point, which is that once you, important point, which is that once you, you know, I always find it interesting you know, I always find it interesting you know, I always find it interesting with celebrities, once they become with celebrities, once they become with celebrities, once they become super famous, I can now disclose, you super famous, I can now disclose, you super famous, I can now disclose, you know, I've been depressed or I've been know, I've been depressed or I've been know, I've been depressed or I've been anxious or I've been overwhelmed, but anxious or I've been overwhelmed, but anxious or I've been overwhelmed, but for some reason, you know, they didn't for some reason, you know, they didn't for some reason, you know, they didn't want to take that risk when they were want to take that risk when they were want to take that risk when they were younger in their careers because again, younger in their careers because again, younger in their careers because again, the perception is like, "Oh, anxiety, the perception is like, "Oh, anxiety, the perception is like, "Oh, anxiety, depression, depression, depression, whatever it is, that's weak." whatever it is, that's weak." whatever it is, that's weak." And so, that's the point. The point is And so, that's the point. The point is And so, that's the point. The point is is that we raise kids, is that we raise kids, is that we raise kids, boys in particular, to believe that boys in particular, to believe that boys in particular, to believe that these feminine type emotions, which are these feminine type emotions, which are these feminine type emotions, which are not feminine by nature, they're just not feminine by nature, they're just not feminine by nature, they're just human emotions, are weak. And therefore, human emotions, are weak. And therefore, human emotions, are weak. And therefore, that means I'm going to be perceived as that means I'm going to be perceived as that means I'm going to be perceived as not only weak, not only weak, not only weak, but potentially homosexual, but potentially homosexual, but potentially homosexual, and that's also a stigma. And so, what and that's also a stigma. And so, what and that's also a stigma. And so, what do I do? I suppress. I deny. I ignore. do I do? I suppress. I deny. I ignore. do I do? I suppress. I deny. I ignore. Interestingly enough, Interestingly enough, Interestingly enough, for women, what the research shows is for women, what the research shows is for women, what the research shows is that much less likely to suppress or that much less likely to suppress or that much less likely to suppress or deny, deny, deny, much more likely to ruminate. A couple much more likely to ruminate. A couple much more likely to ruminate. A couple of things. First of all, I I feel like, of things. First of all, I I feel like, of things. First of all, I I feel like, and I could be wrong, but I feel like and I could be wrong, but I feel like and I could be wrong, but I feel like the the stereotype of gay men the the stereotype of gay men the the stereotype of gay men being feminine has fallen away somewhat. being feminine has fallen away somewhat. being feminine has fallen away somewhat. You know, I grew up as You know, I grew up as You know, I grew up as you know, in the skateboarding you know, in the skateboarding you know, in the skateboarding community, there's Brian Anderson. He community, there's Brian Anderson. He community, there's Brian Anderson. He had this big expose in the not expose had this big expose in the not expose had this big expose in the not expose where they exposed him where he where they exposed him where he where they exposed him where he voluntarily, you know, came out in the voluntarily, you know, came out in the voluntarily, you know, came out in the New York Times. And he's like he's one New York Times. And he's like he's one New York Times. And he's like he's one of the most aggressive, you know, you of the most aggressive, you know, you of the most aggressive, you know, you know, skateboarders out there. know, skateboarders out there. know, skateboarders out there. Aggressive in the skateboarding, right? Aggressive in the skateboarding, right? Aggressive in the skateboarding, right? So, and he's big dude, you know. So, I So, and he's big dude, you know. So, I So, and he's big dude, you know. So, I feel like that stereotype is kind of feel like that stereotype is kind of feel like that stereotype is kind of shifted a bit where people shifted a bit where people shifted a bit where people assume that there's a range. assume that there's a range. assume that there's a range. I think you're ambitious there. I think you're ambitious there. I think you're ambitious there. I think you're right. I mean, we know I think you're right. I mean, we know I think you're right. I mean, we know So, being gay is still So, being gay is still So, being gay is still Yeah, for sure. Hm. Okay. I mean, if you Yeah, for sure. Hm. Okay. I mean, if you Yeah, for sure. Hm. Okay. I mean, if you ask ask ask 100 people to 100 people to 100 people to uh run like a gay man, uh run like a gay man, uh run like a gay man, they're still caught in the Revenge of they're still caught in the Revenge of they're still caught in the Revenge of the Nerds. the Nerds. the Nerds. >> Yeah. They're going to They're going to >> Yeah. They're going to They're going to >> Yeah. They're going to They're going to show you someone who's, you know, more show you someone who's, you know, more show you someone who's, you know, more feminine or, you know, kind of feminine or, you know, kind of feminine or, you know, kind of stereotypically feminine, to be honest stereotypically feminine, to be honest stereotypically feminine, to be honest with you. with you. with you. So, while there, you know, we know, I So, while there, you know, we know, I So, while there, you know, we know, I mean, certainly mean, certainly mean, certainly I remember I remember I remember um um um when I was 18, I went to a gay bar, when I was 18, I went to a gay bar, when I was 18, I went to a gay bar, and I I I grew up in New Jersey. It was and I I I grew up in New Jersey. It was and I I I grew up in New Jersey. It was very homophobic. The only gay person I very homophobic. The only gay person I very homophobic. The only gay person I really knew was my mother's hairdresser, really knew was my mother's hairdresser, really knew was my mother's hairdresser, who was very flamboyant. who was very flamboyant. who was very flamboyant. And then I went to this gay bar, and I And then I went to this gay bar, and I And then I went to this gay bar, and I was like, "Oh my god, there's like Wall was like, "Oh my god, there's like Wall was like, "Oh my god, there's like Wall Street executives here. You know, Street executives here. You know, Street executives here. You know, there's football players there." It was there's football players there." It was there's football players there." It was a total, you know, a total, you know, a total, you know, um shift in my perception. um shift in my perception. um shift in my perception. Nevertheless, if you ask the majority of Nevertheless, if you ask the majority of Nevertheless, if you ask the majority of people, it's still considered to be, you people, it's still considered to be, you people, it's still considered to be, you know, the mindset is know, the mindset is know, the mindset is feminine. Got it. Yeah, I guess if you feminine. Got it. Yeah, I guess if you feminine. Got it. Yeah, I guess if you um grew up training in gyms, which I um grew up training in gyms, which I um grew up training in gyms, which I did, you're around a lot of like very did, you're around a lot of like very did, you're around a lot of like very strong uh physically strong strong uh physically strong strong uh physically strong >> Yeah. um gay men. Cuz they're the they >> Yeah. um gay men. Cuz they're the they >> Yeah. um gay men. Cuz they're the they were kind of early to the gym culture, were kind of early to the gym culture, were kind of early to the gym culture, you know, as a uh you know, as a uh you know, as a uh so so maybe my my lens on that is a so so maybe my my lens on that is a so so maybe my my lens on that is a little distorted. There's something little distorted. There's something little distorted. There's something interesting around this notion of interesting around this notion of interesting around this notion of um um showing emotion showing emotion and boys. And we earlier we were talking and boys. And we earlier we were talking and boys. And we earlier we were talking about the movie Stand by Me, movie I about the movie Stand by Me, movie I about the movie Stand by Me, movie I absolutely love. And it's just like a absolutely love. And it's just like a absolutely love. And it's just like a perfect story. It's a Stephen King perfect story. It's a Stephen King perfect story. It's a Stephen King story, right, turned into a movie. Um story, right, turned into a movie. Um story, right, turned into a movie. Um I think Rob Reiner wrote that movie. I think Rob Reiner wrote that movie. I think Rob Reiner wrote that movie. Um uh Um uh Um uh and and and what's interesting about that movie is what's interesting about that movie is what's interesting about that movie is the transition be cuz that happens right the transition be cuz that happens right the transition be cuz that happens right around puberty and between junior high around puberty and between junior high around puberty and between junior high It's right before junior high school or It's right before junior high school or It's right before junior high school or Oh, it's between junior high and high Oh, it's between junior high and high Oh, it's between junior high and high school. I can't remember. Some some school. I can't remember. Some some school. I can't remember. Some some transition and the kids are at different transition and the kids are at different transition and the kids are at different developmental stages. I feel like this developmental stages. I feel like this developmental stages. I feel like this is a big part of it where like let's say is a big part of it where like let's say is a big part of it where like let's say a kid is a kid is a kid is um um um a little bit more emotional, a little a little bit more emotional, a little a little bit more emotional, a little more um more um more um coddled at home, perhaps. This is I'm coddled at home, perhaps. This is I'm coddled at home, perhaps. This is I'm making a lot of assumptions here. And making a lot of assumptions here. And making a lot of assumptions here. And cries in front of a group of boys when cries in front of a group of boys when cries in front of a group of boys when you're in the seventh or eighth grade. you're in the seventh or eighth grade. you're in the seventh or eighth grade. Some of those boys are Some of those boys are Some of those boys are are because of their stage of are because of their stage of are because of their stage of maturation, they're not really little maturation, they're not really little maturation, they're not really little kids anymore. They're like, "Dude, what kids anymore. They're like, "Dude, what kids anymore. They're like, "Dude, what are you doing?" are you doing?" are you doing?" And then And then And then you've mixed all those kids together and you've mixed all those kids together and you've mixed all those kids together and because of the way that schools and because of the way that schools and because of the way that schools and social dynamics are, that can stay with social dynamics are, that can stay with social dynamics are, that can stay with a kid for a long time. Like being sort a kid for a long time. Like being sort a kid for a long time. Like being sort of having an emotional expression of having an emotional expression of having an emotional expression that can stick with you for like two, that can stick with you for like two, that can stick with you for like two, three years of school, right? So I feel three years of school, right? So I feel three years of school, right? So I feel like some of this stuff comes about that like some of this stuff comes about that like some of this stuff comes about that way, which is very different than like way, which is very different than like way, which is very different than like an an an um just um just um just I guess like a hypothetical scenario uh I guess like a hypothetical scenario uh I guess like a hypothetical scenario uh an adult male um in the business place. an adult male um in the business place. an adult male um in the business place. Maybe he's new at you know, where Maybe he's new at you know, where Maybe he's new at you know, where there's things tend to uh equalize a bit there's things tend to uh equalize a bit there's things tend to uh equalize a bit in terms of maturational stage. And so in terms of maturational stage. And so in terms of maturational stage. And so these are two different things. Boys these are two different things. Boys these are two different things. Boys crying versus young men crying versus crying versus young men crying versus crying versus young men crying versus grown men cry. grown men cry. grown men cry. >> Again, this is all nurture. >> Again, this is all nurture. >> Again, this is all nurture. So if you go to schools that do our So if you go to schools that do our So if you go to schools that do our work, I just interviewed a bunch of work, I just interviewed a bunch of work, I just interviewed a bunch of teenage boys actually. teenage boys actually. teenage boys actually. It'll blow your mind. They have a whole It'll blow your mind. They have a whole It'll blow your mind. They have a whole different perception of emotion. different perception of emotion. different perception of emotion. I I ask them these questions about men I I ask them these questions about men I I ask them these questions about men and boys and you know and boys and you know and boys and you know and their responses are like huh? and their responses are like huh? and their responses are like huh? Like what's wrong with crying? Like Like what's wrong with crying? Like Like what's wrong with crying? Like if you feel like crying you cry. Like if you feel like crying you cry. Like if you feel like crying you cry. Like are you sure? You know, even I No no are you sure? You know, even I No no are you sure? You know, even I No no ridicule. No ridicule. ridicule. No ridicule. ridicule. No ridicule. I said, "Well, what if you get into a I said, "Well, what if you get into a I said, "Well, what if you get into a fight? Can you like fight? Can you like fight? Can you like talk to the kid about what happened and talk to the kid about what happened and talk to the kid about what happened and like tell them how you felt when they like tell them how you felt when they like tell them how you felt when they left you out?" And they're like left you out?" And they're like left you out?" And they're like of course, that's what that's how we of course, that's what that's how we of course, that's what that's how we grew up. That's But they grew up in a grew up. That's But they grew up in a grew up. That's But they grew up in a school that took emotion seriously. They school that took emotion seriously. They school that took emotion seriously. They gave them the skills and the resources gave them the skills and the resources gave them the skills and the resources to do it. It reminds me actually, I to do it. It reminds me actually, I to do it. It reminds me actually, I never forget this. never forget this. never forget this. You know, since we're on this topic of You know, since we're on this topic of You know, since we're on this topic of boys and men, I was boys and men, I was boys and men, I was in the beginning of my career doing in the beginning of my career doing in the beginning of my career doing training in emotional regulation in training in emotional regulation in training in emotional regulation in London. Outside of London in a a very London. Outside of London in a a very London. Outside of London in a a very kind of kind of kind of rough and tough neighborhood. rough and tough neighborhood. rough and tough neighborhood. And uh the headmistress, as they call it And uh the headmistress, as they call it And uh the headmistress, as they call it back then, of the school, she looked at back then, of the school, she looked at back then, of the school, she looked at me and she's like, "You know something, me and she's like, "You know something, me and she's like, "You know something, Mark? Mark? Mark? This program's going to turn the boys This program's going to turn the boys This program's going to turn the boys into homosexuals." I'm like okay, like into homosexuals." I'm like okay, like into homosexuals." I'm like okay, like where'd that come from? You know, like where'd that come from? You know, like where'd that come from? You know, like I'm thinking to myself like you need a I'm thinking to myself like you need a I'm thinking to myself like you need a lot more training than just emotional lot more training than just emotional lot more training than just emotional intelligence, but I'll put that aside intelligence, but I'll put that aside intelligence, but I'll put that aside for a minute. Anyhow, for a minute. Anyhow, for a minute. Anyhow, I said, "You know, I'm here. So can we I said, "You know, I'm here. So can we I said, "You know, I'm here. So can we just go and do it? Let me let me just go and do it? Let me let me just go and do it? Let me let me demonstrate it." demonstrate it." demonstrate it." Not a problem. They go in like a Not a problem. They go in like a Not a problem. They go in like a fishbowl. Here I am like the teacher in fishbowl. Here I am like the teacher in fishbowl. Here I am like the teacher in the middle of the room. I have like 25 the middle of the room. I have like 25 the middle of the room. I have like 25 teachers around me and like 20 kids in teachers around me and like 20 kids in teachers around me and like 20 kids in the middle. the middle. the middle. And I start sharing a story about my And I start sharing a story about my And I start sharing a story about my life, whatever it was. I was about life, whatever it was. I was about life, whatever it was. I was about probably feeling discouraged. I think it probably feeling discouraged. I think it probably feeling discouraged. I think it was one of when I first got into the was one of when I first got into the was one of when I first got into the martial arts, you know, it was tough. I martial arts, you know, it was tough. I martial arts, you know, it was tough. I was not a tough boy and I was afraid of was not a tough boy and I was afraid of was not a tough boy and I was afraid of my shadow and I had been then had all my shadow and I had been then had all my shadow and I had been then had all this bullying and abuse and you know, this bullying and abuse and you know, this bullying and abuse and you know, going to a karate studio was a big shock going to a karate studio was a big shock going to a karate studio was a big shock for me. I happen to have an amazing for me. I happen to have an amazing for me. I happen to have an amazing teacher who transformed my life and teacher who transformed my life and teacher who transformed my life and became a career of mine in martial arts. became a career of mine in martial arts. became a career of mine in martial arts. Anyhow, Anyhow, Anyhow, I told the story about that about how I I told the story about that about how I I told the story about that about how I failed my yellow belt and I just I hated failed my yellow belt and I just I hated failed my yellow belt and I just I hated myself and like not only was I bullied, myself and like not only was I bullied, myself and like not only was I bullied, but I couldn't even get a freaking but I couldn't even get a freaking but I couldn't even get a freaking yellow belt. Discouraged, hopeless and yellow belt. Discouraged, hopeless and yellow belt. Discouraged, hopeless and he's everybody's looking at me like he's everybody's looking at me like he's everybody's looking at me like where's this going the teachers. The where's this going the teachers. The where's this going the teachers. The kids were like glued. They loved hearing kids were like glued. They loved hearing kids were like glued. They loved hearing the story. the story. the story. And then I said, And then I said, And then I said, I'm just curious. I'm just curious. I'm just curious. Has anyone else ever felt the way I Has anyone else ever felt the way I Has anyone else ever felt the way I felt? felt? felt? And I said just raise your hand if And I said just raise your hand if And I said just raise your hand if you've had that kind of feeling. Every you've had that kind of feeling. Every you've had that kind of feeling. Every freaking kid in the classroom raised freaking kid in the classroom raised freaking kid in the classroom raised their hand. And of course I look over at their hand. And of course I look over at their hand. And of course I look over at that headmistress and I'm like, you that headmistress and I'm like, you that headmistress and I'm like, you know, let's let's talk later. know, let's let's talk later. know, let's let's talk later. Kids are dying to express their Kids are dying to express their Kids are dying to express their emotions, boys and girls. We had we emotions, boys and girls. We had we emotions, boys and girls. We had we we've just socialized it and it the we've just socialized it and it the we've just socialized it and it the socialization piece is really important socialization piece is really important socialization piece is really important because even the way fathers talk to because even the way fathers talk to because even the way fathers talk to their their their boy children, you know, boy children, you know, boy children, you know, is different. is different. is different. You know, it's the toughen up. It's the You know, it's the toughen up. It's the You know, it's the toughen up. It's the da da da use more feeling words with da da da use more feeling words with da da da use more feeling words with their with girls than with boys. their with girls than with boys. their with girls than with boys. We're not born that way. We are We're not born that way. We are We're not born that way. We are socialized into, socialized into, socialized into, you know, having these complicated you know, having these complicated you know, having these complicated relationships with sharing emotions, but relationships with sharing emotions, but relationships with sharing emotions, but it's not something it's not something it's not something that can't be modified with good that can't be modified with good that can't be modified with good instruction. instruction. instruction. You're saying this I'm realizing I You're saying this I'm realizing I You're saying this I'm realizing I internalized so many things that skew my internalized so many things that skew my internalized so many things that skew my perspective on this. I guess I should perspective on this. I guess I should perspective on this. I guess I should say I'm relieved to hear that say I'm relieved to hear that say I'm relieved to hear that expression of emotions among boys is expression of emotions among boys is expression of emotions among boys is more accepted now. I think that's The more accepted now. I think that's The more accepted now. I think that's The generation that's going through this generation that's going through this generation that's going through this work, the kids who are growing up in work, the kids who are growing up in work, the kids who are growing up in places that are not taking emotions places that are not taking emotions places that are not taking emotions seriously are growing up in a more seriously are growing up in a more seriously are growing up in a more or with a more stereotypical way of or with a more stereotypical way of or with a more stereotypical way of viewing it. viewing it. viewing it. It's got to be infused into your life. It's got to be infused into your life. It's got to be infused into your life. You got to have these conversations. You You got to have these conversations. You You got to have these conversations. You got to be in situations where like in got to be in situations where like in got to be in situations where like in our work, just to give you an example, our work, just to give you an example, our work, just to give you an example, like we're really rigorous about like we're really rigorous about like we're really rigorous about teaching this stuff. This isn't just teaching this stuff. This isn't just teaching this stuff. This isn't just sort of like Kumbaya sitting in a sort of like Kumbaya sitting in a sort of like Kumbaya sitting in a circle. This is like circle. This is like circle. This is like all right, everyone, we've got a problem all right, everyone, we've got a problem all right, everyone, we've got a problem here. There's, you know, the gaga pit, here. There's, you know, the gaga pit, here. There's, you know, the gaga pit, which is in these, you know, this thing which is in these, you know, this thing which is in these, you know, this thing in schools, you know, there's a kid who in schools, you know, there's a kid who in schools, you know, there's a kid who nobody is, you know, allowing to nobody is, you know, allowing to nobody is, you know, allowing to participate. That kid feels awful. participate. That kid feels awful. participate. That kid feels awful. What's our obligation? What are we What's our obligation? What are we What's our obligation? What are we supposed to do to handle that? Imagine supposed to do to handle that? Imagine supposed to do to handle that? Imagine you're that kid. Imagine you're the one you're that kid. Imagine you're the one you're that kid. Imagine you're the one that nobody wants to be, you know, part that nobody wants to be, you know, part that nobody wants to be, you know, part of the game. of the game. of the game. Now we're going to get into groups and Now we're going to get into groups and Now we're going to get into groups and we're going to think about A, what are we're going to think about A, what are we're going to think about A, what are the feelings? B, what are the solutions? the feelings? B, what are the solutions? the feelings? B, what are the solutions? What do you do for yourself? What do you What do you do for yourself? What do you What do you do for yourself? What do you do for the other person? And it's like do for the other person? And it's like do for the other person? And it's like rigorous conversations around the rigorous conversations around the rigorous conversations around the techniques and they got to role play it. techniques and they got to role play it. techniques and they got to role play it. And then we ask questions about the role And then we ask questions about the role And then we ask questions about the role plays like, well, what if it goes wrong? plays like, well, what if it goes wrong? plays like, well, what if it goes wrong? What happens if you say this and they What happens if you say this and they What happens if you say this and they say go blank yourself? What do you do say go blank yourself? What do you do say go blank yourself? What do you do then? And that's the kind of complex, then? And that's the kind of complex, then? And that's the kind of complex, you know, you know, you know, muscle building we're giving kids in muscle building we're giving kids in muscle building we're giving kids in terms of dealing with emotions. terms of dealing with emotions. terms of dealing with emotions. As many of you know, I've been taking As many of you know, I've been taking As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've before I ever had a podcast, and I've before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The been taking it every day since. The been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking it, and the reason I started taking it, and the reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 reason I still take it, is because AG1 reason I still take it, is because AG1 is to my knowledge the highest quality is to my knowledge the highest quality is to my knowledge the highest quality and most comprehensive of the and most comprehensive of the and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on foundational nutritional supplements on foundational nutritional supplements on the market. It combines vitamins, the market. It combines vitamins, the market. It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's adaptogens into a single scoop that's adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great. It's easy to drink, and it tastes great. It's easy to drink, and it tastes great. It's designed to support things like gut designed to support things like gut designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall health, immune health, and overall health, immune health, and overall energy. And it does so by helping to energy. And it does so by helping to energy. And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your fill any gaps you might have in your fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition. Now, of course, daily nutrition. Now, of course, daily nutrition. Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious everyone should strive to eat nutritious everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods. I certainly do that every whole foods. I certainly do that every whole foods. I certainly do that every day. But, I'm often asked if you could day. But, I'm often asked if you could day. But, I'm often asked if you could take just one supplement, what would take just one supplement, what would take just one supplement, what would that supplement be? And my answer is that supplement be? And my answer is that supplement be? And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been oh always AG1, because it has just been oh always AG1, because it has just been oh so critical to supporting all aspects of so critical to supporting all aspects of so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and my physical health, mental health, and my physical health, mental health, and performance. I know this from my own performance. I know this from my own performance. I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually experience with AG1, and I continually experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 hear this from other people who use AG1 hear this from other people who use AG1 daily. If you would like to try AG1, you daily. If you would like to try AG1, you daily. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman can go to drinkag1.com/huberman can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited to get a special offer. For a limited to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel time, AG1 is giving away six free travel time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. Again, D3K2 with your subscription. Again, D3K2 with your subscription. Again, that's drinkag1 with the numeral one that's drinkag1 with the numeral one that's drinkag1 with the numeral one {dot} com {slash} huberman to get six {dot} com {slash} huberman to get six {dot} com {slash} huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of free travel packs and a bottle of free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. There is a hardwired bias towards There is a hardwired bias towards There is a hardwired bias towards rough-and-tumble play in males of all of rough-and-tumble play in males of all of rough-and-tumble play in males of all of all species including ours. I think what all species including ours. I think what all species including ours. I think what you're talking about a little bit is a you're talking about a little bit is a you're talking about a little bit is a capacity also for kind of capacity also for kind of capacity also for kind of rough-and-tumble rough-and-tumble rough-and-tumble verbal and emotional exchange, which is verbal and emotional exchange, which is verbal and emotional exchange, which is not necessarily like FU and this and not necessarily like FU and this and not necessarily like FU and this and that like but some of that is that like but some of that is that like but some of that is can be in jest. can be in jest. can be in jest. Some of it can be really damaging. Some of it can be really damaging. Some of it can be really damaging. There's a something interesting that I There's a something interesting that I There's a something interesting that I learned a long time ago it even in learned a long time ago it even in learned a long time ago it even in academia. He's now dead, but there was a academia. He's now dead, but there was a academia. He's now dead, but there was a a very famous neuroscientist. I'll never a very famous neuroscientist. I'll never a very famous neuroscientist. I'll never forget. Uh I went to my first McKnight forget. Uh I went to my first McKnight forget. Uh I went to my first McKnight meeting. I was so like excited to be meeting. I was so like excited to be meeting. I was so like excited to be there and he came over. He was you know, there and he came over. He was you know, there and he came over. He was you know, he's he's he's pretty large guy and he grabbed me. pretty large guy and he grabbed me. pretty large guy and he grabbed me. He grabbed me and he and he goes, "So, He grabbed me and he and he goes, "So, He grabbed me and he and he goes, "So, where are you I was picking between where are you I was picking between where are you I was picking between laboratories between this place and that laboratories between this place and that laboratories between this place and that place. He goes, "Where's it's going to place. He goes, "Where's it's going to place. He goes, "Where's it's going to Where's it going to be?" And then he had Where's it going to be?" And then he had Where's it going to be?" And then he had gave me his advice. And then gave me his advice. And then gave me his advice. And then and that was a very comfortable exchange and that was a very comfortable exchange and that was a very comfortable exchange for me cuz like I grew up with a lot of for me cuz like I grew up with a lot of for me cuz like I grew up with a lot of physical interaction. Usually guys not physical interaction. Usually guys not physical interaction. Usually guys not putting their arm around me and and like putting their arm around me and and like putting their arm around me and and like tell me like, "So, what's it going to tell me like, "So, what's it going to tell me like, "So, what's it going to be?" kind of thing. But be?" kind of thing. But be?" kind of thing. But often times, you know, if I interact often times, you know, if I interact often times, you know, if I interact with somebody that's kind of like an old with somebody that's kind of like an old with somebody that's kind of like an old friend or something, there's they'll friend or something, there's they'll friend or something, there's they'll grab my shoulder. grab my shoulder. grab my shoulder. You know, just walking by. There's a lot You know, just walking by. There's a lot You know, just walking by. There's a lot of just kind of physical interaction of just kind of physical interaction of just kind of physical interaction that just happens. It certainly doesn't that just happens. It certainly doesn't that just happens. It certainly doesn't feel weird or averse. feel weird or averse. feel weird or averse. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. And I could see if somebody for instance And I could see if somebody for instance And I could see if somebody for instance was not used to like just a lot of was not used to like just a lot of was not used to like just a lot of physical interaction physical interaction physical interaction uh with other people that that could uh with other people that that could uh with other people that that could feel like a lot. And so I'm wondering feel like a lot. And so I'm wondering feel like a lot. And so I'm wondering nowadays where where are things with nowadays where where are things with nowadays where where are things with respect to sort of just the amount of respect to sort of just the amount of respect to sort of just the amount of physical interaction between kids? Are physical interaction between kids? Are physical interaction between kids? Are they like just feeling and voicing their they like just feeling and voicing their they like just feeling and voicing their emotions, but they're like at at a emotions, but they're like at at a emotions, but they're like at at a physical distance? Or are they uh you physical distance? Or are they uh you physical distance? Or are they uh you know, seeing one another in like know, seeing one another in like know, seeing one another in like handshakes and hugs, what's up? And you handshakes and hugs, what's up? And you handshakes and hugs, what's up? And you know, or like you know, just friendly, know, or like you know, just friendly, know, or like you know, just friendly, the kind of physical banter. I think the kind of physical banter. I think the kind of physical banter. I think it's cultural. It's there's a lot of it's cultural. It's there's a lot of it's cultural. It's there's a lot of there's a lot going on there in terms there's a lot going on there in terms there's a lot going on there in terms of, you know, the type of school and, of, you know, the type of school and, of, you know, the type of school and, you know, where it is in the United you know, where it is in the United you know, where it is in the United States or in the world. States or in the world. States or in the world. You know, touch is a is a cultural You know, touch is a is a cultural You know, touch is a is a cultural thing. thing. thing. But I think, you know, what I want to But I think, you know, what I want to But I think, you know, what I want to say about what you said say about what you said say about what you said is that is that is that rough and tumble is fine. Of course, rough and tumble is fine. Of course, rough and tumble is fine. Of course, you know, rough and tumble. you know, rough and tumble. you know, rough and tumble. But there's when it becomes a power But there's when it becomes a power But there's when it becomes a power over, that's when it becomes a problem. over, that's when it becomes a problem. over, that's when it becomes a problem. When you have no concern When you have no concern When you have no concern for the emotional life of the other. for the emotional life of the other. for the emotional life of the other. That's bullying. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's bullying. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's bullying. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. The dialogue that sort of >> Yeah. The dialogue that sort of >> Yeah. The dialogue that sort of establishes hierarchy, I guess is what establishes hierarchy, I guess is what establishes hierarchy, I guess is what if I'm really blunt about it. I just if I'm really blunt about it. I just if I'm really blunt about it. I just feel like that just sort of just feel like that just sort of just feel like that just sort of just happened naturally in my friend group happened naturally in my friend group happened naturally in my friend group when I was a kid. Like there were some when I was a kid. Like there were some when I was a kid. Like there were some kids who were more developed and more kids who were more developed and more kids who were more developed and more athletic or better at this or better at athletic or better at this or better at athletic or better at this or better at that. And that. And that. And we just kind of all fell into place. we just kind of all fell into place. we just kind of all fell into place. It wasn't necessarily about being at the It wasn't necessarily about being at the It wasn't necessarily about being at the apex or being at the bottom. apex or being at the bottom. apex or being at the bottom. >> There's no intention to harm. Yeah, we >> There's no intention to harm. Yeah, we >> There's no intention to harm. Yeah, we we we sort of formed a a team where you we we sort of formed a a team where you we we sort of formed a a team where you understood that yeah, this kid was fast understood that yeah, this kid was fast understood that yeah, this kid was fast and this one was strong and this one was and this one was strong and this one was and this one was strong and this one was clever and this one was creative. And clever and this one was creative. And clever and this one was creative. And actually there was a goofy kid on our actually there was a goofy kid on our actually there was a goofy kid on our street who was always the comedian. I street who was always the comedian. I street who was always the comedian. I think later he actually tried to become think later he actually tried to become think later he actually tried to become a comedian or became a comedian. And a comedian or became a comedian. And a comedian or became a comedian. And everyone just kind of like was like, all everyone just kind of like was like, all everyone just kind of like was like, all right. You didn't expect him to be like right. You didn't expect him to be like right. You didn't expect him to be like the other kid and you didn't expect the other kid and you didn't expect the other kid and you didn't expect yourself to kind of check off all boxes. yourself to kind of check off all boxes. yourself to kind of check off all boxes. I wonder I wonder I wonder uh the extent to which uh the extent to which uh the extent to which young males in particular nowadays feel young males in particular nowadays feel young males in particular nowadays feel the need the need the need to check off all the boxes of what it is to check off all the boxes of what it is to check off all the boxes of what it is to be a guy. Play a sport, be good in to be a guy. Play a sport, be good in to be a guy. Play a sport, be good in school, be you know school, be you know school, be you know whatever. whatever. whatever. Well, that's again Well, that's again Well, that's again the developmental thing. And I think the developmental thing. And I think the developmental thing. And I think what happens is that and you know, you what happens is that and you know, you what happens is that and you know, you watch kids play in kindergarten, they're watch kids play in kindergarten, they're watch kids play in kindergarten, they're not thinking about this kind of stuff. not thinking about this kind of stuff. not thinking about this kind of stuff. Although it's it's it's it's Although it's it's it's it's Although it's it's it's it's sinking in or it's seeping in, what's sinking in or it's seeping in, what's sinking in or it's seeping in, what's the word? Um I was in a school recently the word? Um I was in a school recently the word? Um I was in a school recently uh and a boy uh and a boy uh and a boy raised his hand that he was in the blue raised his hand that he was in the blue raised his hand that he was in the blue quadrant of our mood meter and he was quadrant of our mood meter and he was quadrant of our mood meter and he was feeling down or sad. feeling down or sad. feeling down or sad. And I said, "Do you Do you need anything And I said, "Do you Do you need anything And I said, "Do you Do you need anything right now?" And he said, "No." right now?" And he said, "No." right now?" And he said, "No." And I got I got kind of like taken by And I got I got kind of like taken by And I got I got kind of like taken by surprise and I said, "You know, you sure surprise and I said, "You know, you sure surprise and I said, "You know, you sure you can talk about it?" He's like, "I you can talk about it?" He's like, "I you can talk about it?" He's like, "I don't want to bother you, sir." And that was a eye-opener for me. And that was a eye-opener for me. You know, that already You know, that already You know, that already like his emotions were a nuisance. like his emotions were a nuisance. like his emotions were a nuisance. And that's what I want to make sure that And that's what I want to make sure that And that's what I want to make sure that we we we address. No one's emotion should be a address. No one's emotion should be a address. No one's emotion should be a burden. A kid should be able to talk burden. A kid should be able to talk burden. A kid should be able to talk about it and deal with it. We want that about it and deal with it. We want that about it and deal with it. We want that kid to be a good learner. We want that kid to be a good learner. We want that kid to be a good learner. We want that kid to be a good friend. And if he's kid to be a good friend. And if he's kid to be a good friend. And if he's already suppressing, denying, ignoring, already suppressing, denying, ignoring, already suppressing, denying, ignoring, you know, in kindergarten, you know, in kindergarten, you know, in kindergarten, it's not going to be a pretty ride. it's not going to be a pretty ride. it's not going to be a pretty ride. And those things change developmentally. And those things change developmentally. And those things change developmentally. Um kids are much more comfortable Um kids are much more comfortable Um kids are much more comfortable talking to each other about their talking to each other about their talking to each other about their feelings in elementary school and middle feelings in elementary school and middle feelings in elementary school and middle school, you know, it starts getting you school, you know, it starts getting you school, you know, it starts getting you know, you got to look around and again know, you got to look around and again know, you got to look around and again with the homophobia piece and then in with the homophobia piece and then in with the homophobia piece and then in high school you see high school you see high school you see um less and less touching, you know, or um less and less touching, you know, or um less and less touching, you know, or you know, kind of the you know, kind of the you know, kind of the the the the the kind of the kind of the kind of friendship kind of stuff that you might friendship kind of stuff that you might friendship kind of stuff that you might have seen early on. have seen early on. have seen early on. And that goes back to the you know, the And that goes back to the you know, the And that goes back to the you know, the things that we were kind of chatting things that we were kind of chatting things that we were kind of chatting about, toxic masculinity, kind of this about, toxic masculinity, kind of this about, toxic masculinity, kind of this manosphere. manosphere. manosphere. And again, you know, my hope is that we And again, you know, my hope is that we And again, you know, my hope is that we rethink child development. rethink child development. rethink child development. We have spent so much time We have spent so much time We have spent so much time thinking about some of the unnecessary thinking about some of the unnecessary thinking about some of the unnecessary things. things. things. You know, reading and writing and You know, reading and writing and You know, reading and writing and arithmetic obviously are important. arithmetic obviously are important. arithmetic obviously are important. But if you don't recognize that how But if you don't recognize that how But if you don't recognize that how we feel and how we deal with our we feel and how we deal with our we feel and how we deal with our feelings is going to drive feelings is going to drive feelings is going to drive the quality of your relationships, the quality of your relationships, the quality of your relationships, your well-being, your well-being, your well-being, your ability to deal with life's ups and your ability to deal with life's ups and your ability to deal with life's ups and downs and the harsh feedback you're downs and the harsh feedback you're downs and the harsh feedback you're going to get in life, going to get in life, going to get in life, um and ultimately, you know, having your um and ultimately, you know, having your um and ultimately, you know, having your dreams come true. You know, it's dreams come true. You know, it's dreams come true. You know, it's interesting as someone who works at a interesting as someone who works at a interesting as someone who works at a university where everyone has perfect university where everyone has perfect university where everyone has perfect SAT scores. SAT scores. SAT scores. Everyone has grade point averages that Everyone has grade point averages that Everyone has grade point averages that are better than mine were. are better than mine were. are better than mine were. Everyone plays an instrument I never Everyone plays an instrument I never Everyone plays an instrument I never heard [snorts] of before. heard [snorts] of before. heard [snorts] of before. Everyone has done everything to get into Everyone has done everything to get into Everyone has done everything to get into this place. And so, I have like 700, 800 this place. And so, I have like 700, 800 this place. And so, I have like 700, 800 students right there. And I look at them students right there. And I look at them students right there. And I look at them all and I'm like, "Guess what? all and I'm like, "Guess what? all and I'm like, "Guess what? Your SAT scores have no predictive Your SAT scores have no predictive Your SAT scores have no predictive validity." validity." validity." None. You can't Remember, it's range None. You can't Remember, it's range None. You can't Remember, it's range restriction. Mhm. restriction. Mhm. restriction. Mhm. It's like basket All basketball players It's like basket All basketball players It's like basket All basketball players are tall. The height is not going to are tall. The height is not going to are tall. The height is not going to make or break your your basketball make or break your your basketball make or break your your basketball performance. Same thing applies in a performance. Same thing applies in a performance. Same thing applies in a room filled with people with, you know, room filled with people with, you know, room filled with people with, you know, high academic performance. And then, all high academic performance. And then, all high academic performance. And then, all right, well, what is the predictor? right, well, what is the predictor? right, well, what is the predictor? Well, obviously, it's going to be Well, obviously, it's going to be Well, obviously, it's going to be something else. something else. something else. And then we start thinking about, well, And then we start thinking about, well, And then we start thinking about, well, what are the what are the what are the attributes attributes attributes that employers are looking for? Right now, it's not technical skills as Right now, it's not technical skills as much as it used to be. Right now, it's much as it used to be. Right now, it's much as it used to be. Right now, it's like, like, like, "Can this person "Can this person "Can this person like take feedback well? like take feedback well? like take feedback well? Can this person, you know, lead a team Can this person, you know, lead a team Can this person, you know, lead a team and people will want to be around that and people will want to be around that and people will want to be around that person?" person?" person?" I found in my research, for example, I found in my research, for example, I found in my research, for example, that managers and leaders who are good that managers and leaders who are good that managers and leaders who are good coregulators, coregulators, coregulators, that for example, during the pandemic, I that for example, during the pandemic, I that for example, during the pandemic, I did this longitudinal study, did this longitudinal study, did this longitudinal study, and I found that and I found that and I found that in schools in particular where I do a in schools in particular where I do a in schools in particular where I do a lot of work, that when a teacher lot of work, that when a teacher lot of work, that when a teacher perceive their leader perceive their leader perceive their leader as both self-regulated as both self-regulated as both self-regulated and who was good at co-regulating. So, and who was good at co-regulating. So, and who was good at co-regulating. So, what that means is that like I'm looking what that means is that like I'm looking what that means is that like I'm looking at you right now and thinking, "Okay, at you right now and thinking, "Okay, at you right now and thinking, "Okay, you know, it feels like the world's you know, it feels like the world's you know, it feels like the world's coming to an end. Are you going to fall coming to an end. Are you going to fall coming to an end. Are you going to fall apart or are you going to make it?" apart or are you going to make it?" apart or are you going to make it?" That's number one. Number two is That's number one. Number two is That's number one. Number two is are you going to be there for me? Are are you going to be there for me? Are are you going to be there for me? Are you going to be able to support me and you going to be able to support me and you going to be able to support me and deal with the chaos that I've got to deal with the chaos that I've got to deal with the chaos that I've got to deal with? And what we found in our deal with? And what we found in our deal with? And what we found in our research is that highly predictive of research is that highly predictive of research is that highly predictive of the culture of a school, highly the culture of a school, highly the culture of a school, highly predictive of burnout, highly predictive predictive of burnout, highly predictive predictive of burnout, highly predictive of job satisfaction. Frustration levels of job satisfaction. Frustration levels of job satisfaction. Frustration levels were 40% lower in schools where there were 40% lower in schools where there were 40% lower in schools where there were leaders with these skills. were leaders with these skills. were leaders with these skills. That's what people are looking for these That's what people are looking for these That's what people are looking for these days, more so than anything else, you days, more so than anything else, you days, more so than anything else, you know, more so than beforehand. know, more so than beforehand. know, more so than beforehand. I feel like the word that comes to mind I feel like the word that comes to mind I feel like the word that comes to mind is is calibration. And in anticipation is is calibration. And in anticipation is is calibration. And in anticipation of today's discussion, I I I was of today's discussion, I I I was of today's discussion, I I I was speaking to a friend and I said, "You speaking to a friend and I said, "You speaking to a friend and I said, "You know, where are you at with uh know, where are you at with uh know, where are you at with uh kind of um kind of um kind of um men expressing emotions?" You know, and men expressing emotions?" You know, and men expressing emotions?" You know, and and you know, she said, "Well, I've seen and you know, she said, "Well, I've seen and you know, she said, "Well, I've seen you cry." And I was like, "Yeah." You you cry." And I was like, "Yeah." You you cry." And I was like, "Yeah." You know, she said, "And it can be know, she said, "And it can be know, she said, "And it can be beautiful." Like, you know, the You hear beautiful." Like, you know, the You hear beautiful." Like, you know, the You hear that, right? It can be beautiful. And I that, right? It can be beautiful. And I that, right? It can be beautiful. And I said, "But when is a man expressing said, "But when is a man expressing said, "But when is a man expressing emotion um a problem for you?" Like, emotion um a problem for you?" Like, emotion um a problem for you?" Like, assuming it's not like outward anger or assuming it's not like outward anger or assuming it's not like outward anger or abuse or you know, his sadness. Okay, abuse or you know, his sadness. Okay, abuse or you know, his sadness. Okay, was the example I gave. And she said, was the example I gave. And she said, was the example I gave. And she said, "If he gets very sad about things that "If he gets very sad about things that "If he gets very sad about things that happen a lot, happen a lot, happen a lot, it makes it hard to imagine that uh how it makes it hard to imagine that uh how it makes it hard to imagine that uh how he would hold it together if really big he would hold it together if really big he would hold it together if really big stuff happened." And so, it's it's stuff happened." And so, it's it's stuff happened." And so, it's it's exactly what you described in the exactly what you described in the exactly what you described in the workplace, right? This notion of workplace, right? This notion of workplace, right? This notion of calibration. So, uh calibration. So, uh calibration. So, uh let's say I'm okay with people let's say I'm okay with people let's say I'm okay with people expressing their emotion, crying when expressing their emotion, crying when expressing their emotion, crying when they're sad, etc. they're sad, etc. they're sad, etc. But if that's happening a lot under But if that's happening a lot under But if that's happening a lot under everyday conditions, everyday conditions, everyday conditions, I could imagine, let's say you're in a I could imagine, let's say you're in a I could imagine, let's say you're in a work or a relationship with this person work or a relationship with this person work or a relationship with this person and then think, "Well, goodness, like and then think, "Well, goodness, like and then think, "Well, goodness, like people die, right? You know, more I'm 50 people die, right? You know, more I'm 50 people die, right? You know, more I'm 50 now and I now and I now and I people die as you get older, more and people die as you get older, more and people die as you get older, more and more people die. That's just kind of the more people die. That's just kind of the more people die. That's just kind of the way it works." What's going to happen way it works." What's going to happen way it works." What's going to happen then? I think there's this then? I think there's this then? I think there's this underlying question, which is underlying question, which is underlying question, which is are you going to be available for all are you going to be available for all are you going to be available for all the other things we depend on each other the other things we depend on each other the other things we depend on each other for? And this could be romantic for? And this could be romantic for? And this could be romantic relationship, it could be in the relationship, it could be in the relationship, it could be in the workplace. So, I I do wonder whether or workplace. So, I I do wonder whether or workplace. So, I I do wonder whether or not people are trying to work out So, not people are trying to work out So, not people are trying to work out So, what people are calibrated to. They're what people are calibrated to. They're what people are calibrated to. They're trying to understand somebody's I don't trying to understand somebody's I don't trying to understand somebody's I don't want to say emotional set point, but want to say emotional set point, but want to say emotional set point, but when they're able to when they're able to when they're able to you know, just pack it down and deal you know, just pack it down and deal you know, just pack it down and deal with it on their own later, or whether with it on their own later, or whether with it on their own later, or whether it really needs to become the focus. it really needs to become the focus. it really needs to become the focus. Like Like Like just uh to just quickly layer in another just uh to just quickly layer in another just uh to just quickly layer in another example, I have a friend who runs a big example, I have a friend who runs a big example, I have a friend who runs a big scientific laboratory. Their laboratory scientific laboratory. Their laboratory scientific laboratory. Their laboratory gathered together and did a presentation gathered together and did a presentation gathered together and did a presentation for for for this lab director and had created a this lab director and had created a this lab director and had created a statistical bubble map of their statistical bubble map of their statistical bubble map of their experience of being in the lab. And experience of being in the lab. And experience of being in the lab. And there was a giant bubble in the middle there was a giant bubble in the middle there was a giant bubble in the middle that just said, "Stress." that just said, "Stress." that just said, "Stress." And they invited someone from HR, and And they invited someone from HR, and And they invited someone from HR, and the whole idea here was to let the boss the whole idea here was to let the boss the whole idea here was to let the boss know that they were really stressed out. know that they were really stressed out. know that they were really stressed out. And I said, "Let me guess, you were And I said, "Let me guess, you were And I said, "Let me guess, you were probably thinking probably thinking probably thinking he came up in a very, very hard branch he came up in a very, very hard branch he came up in a very, very hard branch of science." And I said, "Let me guess, of science." And I said, "Let me guess, of science." And I said, "Let me guess, you're probably thinking, what happened you're probably thinking, what happened you're probably thinking, what happened to science?" And he said to science?" And he said to science?" And he said >> Uh-huh. He said, "For a little while, >> Uh-huh. He said, "For a little while, >> Uh-huh. He said, "For a little while, and then I figured, well, this is the and then I figured, well, this is the and then I figured, well, this is the next generation. I have to work with next generation. I have to work with next generation. I have to work with this." So, they were calibrated to this." So, they were calibrated to this." So, they were calibrated to different set points. And I could different set points. And I could different set points. And I could imagine that's hard across generations, imagine that's hard across generations, imagine that's hard across generations, but but but even within that's got to be really, even within that's got to be really, even within that's got to be really, really tricky. So, you're all about really tricky. So, you're all about really tricky. So, you're all about measurement, Mhm. creating actionable measurement, Mhm. creating actionable measurement, Mhm. creating actionable tools. tools. tools. Is there a language around this? Is Is there a language around this? Is Is there a language around this? Is there a way that we can, yes, learn to there a way that we can, yes, learn to there a way that we can, yes, learn to process and deal with our emotions, process and deal with our emotions, process and deal with our emotions, express our emotions in a more healthy express our emotions in a more healthy express our emotions in a more healthy way? way? way? Also understanding of other people's Also understanding of other people's Also understanding of other people's emotion calibration point. emotion calibration point. emotion calibration point. A couple of things. One is A couple of things. One is A couple of things. One is that that that going back to the kind of partner-leader going back to the kind of partner-leader going back to the kind of partner-leader position is position is position is I think the confusion that people have, I think the confusion that people have, I think the confusion that people have, well again going back to vulnerability well again going back to vulnerability well again going back to vulnerability and emotion dysregulation, is that me and emotion dysregulation, is that me and emotion dysregulation, is that me being vulnerable or me sharing that I'm being vulnerable or me sharing that I'm being vulnerable or me sharing that I'm anxious or overwhelmed or afraid means anxious or overwhelmed or afraid means anxious or overwhelmed or afraid means that I'm weak. that I'm weak. that I'm weak. And I think what leaders need to do is And I think what leaders need to do is And I think what leaders need to do is recognize like during the pandemic, I recognize like during the pandemic, I recognize like during the pandemic, I never forget this like wait the never forget this like wait the never forget this like wait the university shut down everything was university shut down everything was university shut down everything was freaking out. I knew my team was freaked freaking out. I knew my team was freaked freaking out. I knew my team was freaked out. They were stressed out about their out. They were stressed out about their out. They were stressed out about their jobs. They were dealing with being jobs. They were dealing with being jobs. They were dealing with being parents and also employees parents and also employees parents and also employees and working from home and all that and working from home and all that and working from home and all that stuff. Here I was like the head of the stuff. Here I was like the head of the stuff. Here I was like the head of the emotional intelligence lab and like how emotional intelligence lab and like how emotional intelligence lab and like how you doing Mark? And I'm like great. you doing Mark? And I'm like great. you doing Mark? And I'm like great. Everything's fine. And meanwhile I'm Everything's fine. And meanwhile I'm Everything's fine. And meanwhile I'm like I hate my life and I hate everybody like I hate my life and I hate everybody like I hate my life and I hate everybody around me. You know I had this my around me. You know I had this my around me. You know I had this my mother-in-law, you know that story? She mother-in-law, you know that story? She mother-in-law, you know that story? She was stuck with me. was stuck with me. was stuck with me. And um And um And um and then I realized one day like I'm and then I realized one day like I'm and then I realized one day like I'm being a terrible role model. being a terrible role model. being a terrible role model. I'm not being authentic. I'm not being authentic. I'm not being authentic. And I'm not demonstrating the skill. And I'm not demonstrating the skill. And I'm not demonstrating the skill. So I decided to be really honest and say So I decided to be really honest and say So I decided to be really honest and say I'm going to be frank. I'm going to be frank. I'm going to be frank. It's tough right now. It's tough right now. It's tough right now. But here's what I'm doing. But here's what I'm doing. But here's what I'm doing. I'm going for that walk every day at I'm going for that walk every day at I'm going for that walk every day at 5:00. 5:00. 5:00. I can't go to my hot yoga class but I can't go to my hot yoga class but I can't go to my hot yoga class but guess what? I'm I found new workouts guess what? I'm I found new workouts guess what? I'm I found new workouts online that I'm doing and doing X, Y, online that I'm doing and doing X, Y, online that I'm doing and doing X, Y, and Z. So the point is is that I think and Z. So the point is is that I think and Z. So the point is is that I think vulnerability that's like sharing and vulnerability that's like sharing and vulnerability that's like sharing and like you know you know like you know you know like you know you know spewing out all the fears that you have spewing out all the fears that you have spewing out all the fears that you have is not helpful. is not helpful. is not helpful. When it's not accompanied by When it's not accompanied by When it's not accompanied by the strategy. the strategy. the strategy. And that's the key is that And that's the key is that And that's the key is that I'm feeling this way but here's what I'm I'm feeling this way but here's what I'm I'm feeling this way but here's what I'm doing about it. That's what a role model doing about it. That's what a role model doing about it. That's what a role model is and that's what a parent needs to do. is and that's what a parent needs to do. is and that's what a parent needs to do. A parent, you know, A parent, you know, A parent, you know, has to come home and say, you know, I has to come home and say, you know, I has to come home and say, you know, I can imagine this like you're a a dad and can imagine this like you're a a dad and can imagine this like you're a a dad and you're trying to be a role model for you're trying to be a role model for you're trying to be a role model for your kid. your kid. your kid. And my here's my dad. I my dad would And my here's my dad. I my dad would And my here's my dad. I my dad would have a hard day at work. Daddy, let's have a hard day at work. Daddy, let's have a hard day at work. Daddy, let's play. Son, play. Son, play. Son, leave me alone. Done. Like leave me alone. Done. Like leave me alone. Done. Like that was the end of it. As opposed to that was the end of it. As opposed to that was the end of it. As opposed to Dad comes home. Daddy, let's play. Son, Dad comes home. Daddy, let's play. Son, Dad comes home. Daddy, let's play. Son, you know, you have to realize I have to you know, you have to realize I have to you know, you have to realize I have to just tell you something. I just had a just tell you something. I just had a just tell you something. I just had a really rough day at work. I actually got really rough day at work. I actually got really rough day at work. I actually got into a fight with a colleague of mine. into a fight with a colleague of mine. into a fight with a colleague of mine. Didn't go well. And I said something Didn't go well. And I said something Didn't go well. And I said something that I really feel bad about. And so that I really feel bad about. And so that I really feel bad about. And so Daddy just needs a little bit of time to Daddy just needs a little bit of time to Daddy just needs a little bit of time to just process that. just process that. just process that. To just think about what I can say To just think about what I can say To just think about what I can say tomorrow to kind of help my tomorrow to kind of help my tomorrow to kind of help my relationship. And if you don't mind, I relationship. And if you don't mind, I relationship. And if you don't mind, I need that time right now. I love you and need that time right now. I love you and need that time right now. I love you and we'll play later, but right now I'm just we'll play later, but right now I'm just we'll play later, but right now I'm just not in the right space for it. Okay, not in the right space for it. Okay, not in the right space for it. Okay, son? son? son? Okay, Dad. All right, let's stop there. Okay, Dad. All right, let's stop there. Okay, Dad. All right, let's stop there. What did I just teach my What did I just teach my What did I just teach my son or daughter about feelings? All son or daughter about feelings? All son or daughter about feelings? All right. I'm a dude. I'm a dad who has right. I'm a dude. I'm a dad who has right. I'm a dude. I'm a dad who has feelings. feelings. feelings. I am someone who makes mistakes. I say I am someone who makes mistakes. I say I am someone who makes mistakes. I say things that I regret. I reflect on the things that I regret. I reflect on the things that I regret. I reflect on the things that I make mistakes about. I things that I make mistakes about. I things that I make mistakes about. I problem-solve about the things that I problem-solve about the things that I problem-solve about the things that I make mistakes about. I need time to, you make mistakes about. I need time to, you make mistakes about. I need time to, you know, recoup, you know, my energy and know, recoup, you know, my energy and know, recoup, you know, my energy and then I can come back and be with you. then I can come back and be with you. then I can come back and be with you. How much time did that take? Seconds. How much time did that take? Seconds. How much time did that take? Seconds. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But how many of us, you know, are around But how many of us, you know, are around But how many of us, you know, are around people that can process emotion that people that can process emotion that people that can process emotion that way, that have the capacity to say I'm way, that have the capacity to say I'm way, that have the capacity to say I'm in a dark place, things didn't go well, in a dark place, things didn't go well, in a dark place, things didn't go well, I made a mistake, I feel bad about it, I I made a mistake, I feel bad about it, I I made a mistake, I feel bad about it, I need to strategize, and then we'll come need to strategize, and then we'll come need to strategize, and then we'll come back and be together? What happens to back and be together? What happens to back and be together? What happens to most of us? most of us? most of us? We're activated. Like I'm pissed off at We're activated. Like I'm pissed off at We're activated. Like I'm pissed off at the person at work and I project it on the person at work and I project it on the person at work and I project it on everybody else that's, you know, in my everybody else that's, you know, in my everybody else that's, you know, in my next situation. And the power of next situation. And the power of next situation. And the power of emotional self-awareness, going back to emotional self-awareness, going back to emotional self-awareness, going back to what we started with, and the power of what we started with, and the power of what we started with, and the power of emotion regulation, emotion regulation, emotion regulation, is that I notice is that I notice is that I notice that there's a shift. that there's a shift. that there's a shift. I notice that I notice that I notice that I'm feeling this anger, this I'm feeling this anger, this I'm feeling this anger, this frustration. I'm about to go into a new frustration. I'm about to go into a new frustration. I'm about to go into a new environment with my family. And I know, environment with my family. And I know, environment with my family. And I know, because I'm emotionally intelligent, because I'm emotionally intelligent, because I'm emotionally intelligent, that it's not going to be pretty if I that it's not going to be pretty if I that it's not going to be pretty if I don't process that emotion before I move don't process that emotion before I move don't process that emotion before I move into the next situation. So, what I'm into the next situation. So, what I'm into the next situation. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to take a going to do is I'm going to take a going to do is I'm going to take a breath. breath. breath. I'm going to take what I call a meta I'm going to take what I call a meta I'm going to take what I call a meta moment. moment. moment. I'm going to pause. I'm going to take a I'm going to pause. I'm going to take a I'm going to pause. I'm going to take a breath. I'm going to think about the breath. I'm going to think about the breath. I'm going to think about the best version of Mark, best version of Mark, best version of Mark, the father I want to be, the husband I the father I want to be, the husband I the father I want to be, the husband I want to be, want to be, want to be, and then I'm going to open the door and and then I'm going to open the door and and then I'm going to open the door and arrive through that lens. arrive through that lens. arrive through that lens. That's what this work is about. It's That's what this work is about. It's That's what this work is about. It's what what what people need to learn. people need to learn. people need to learn. Uh I'm fascinated by time perception, Uh I'm fascinated by time perception, Uh I'm fascinated by time perception, and I feel like the human brain is so and I feel like the human brain is so and I feel like the human brain is so incredible at being in the moment and incredible at being in the moment and incredible at being in the moment and also getting ahead and thinking behind. also getting ahead and thinking behind. also getting ahead and thinking behind. And what you're really talking about is And what you're really talking about is And what you're really talking about is projecting into the future in a healthy projecting into the future in a healthy projecting into the future in a healthy way, not not future tripping as they way, not not future tripping as they way, not not future tripping as they call it, but in a healthy way. And I call it, but in a healthy way. And I call it, but in a healthy way. And I think that I mean, broadly speaking, I'm think that I mean, broadly speaking, I'm think that I mean, broadly speaking, I'm almost embarrassed to say this as a almost embarrassed to say this as a almost embarrassed to say this as a neuroscientist, uh but you know, the neuroscientist, uh but you know, the neuroscientist, uh but you know, the more limbic more limbic more limbic uh we are, so to speak. I realize it's uh we are, so to speak. I realize it's uh we are, so to speak. I realize it's not really a thing, but the more limbic not really a thing, but the more limbic not really a thing, but the more limbic we are, um the more in the moment we we are, um the more in the moment we we are, um the more in the moment we tend to be. And and it's harder to get tend to be. And and it's harder to get tend to be. And and it's harder to get that version of ourself. When we're that version of ourself. When we're that version of ourself. When we're relaxed, it's very easy to be like, relaxed, it's very easy to be like, relaxed, it's very easy to be like, "Well, I'm going to remember this time." "Well, I'm going to remember this time." "Well, I'm going to remember this time." Or I'm going to project into the future. Or I'm going to project into the future. Or I'm going to project into the future. So, to some extent, healthy recognition So, to some extent, healthy recognition So, to some extent, healthy recognition of one's emotions, it seems, healthy of one's emotions, it seems, healthy of one's emotions, it seems, healthy expression of one's emotions is the expression of one's emotions is the expression of one's emotions is the ability to ability to ability to with feel, but also split off from the with feel, but also split off from the with feel, but also split off from the present enough to get perspective. That present enough to get perspective. That present enough to get perspective. That the time perspective. I mean, it's all the time perspective. I mean, it's all the time perspective. I mean, it's all in or shift in the time domain. You in or shift in the time domain. You in or shift in the time domain. You know, like, "I'm going to go to this you know, like, "I'm going to go to this you know, like, "I'm going to go to this you know, this island in the Caribbean for a know, this island in the Caribbean for a know, this island in the Caribbean for a moment." Although that might be a good moment." Although that might be a good moment." Although that might be a good useful tactic. But that ability useful tactic. But that ability useful tactic. But that ability to tolerate stress and to tolerate stress and to tolerate stress and and segment a piece of one's mind and and segment a piece of one's mind and and segment a piece of one's mind and emotions and go, "Okay, that's all emotions and go, "Okay, that's all emotions and go, "Okay, that's all happening, and I'm going to get like happening, and I'm going to get like happening, and I'm going to get like right over here." That is a skill. So, right over here." That is a skill. So, right over here." That is a skill. So, the way I like to think about it is that the way I like to think about it is that the way I like to think about it is that we have to move from we have to move from we have to move from automatic, habitual, unhelpful reactions automatic, habitual, unhelpful reactions automatic, habitual, unhelpful reactions to deliberate, to deliberate, to deliberate, conscious, helpful responses. Because we become more automatic when Because we become more automatic when we're flooded with our emotions, we rely we're flooded with our emotions, we rely we're flooded with our emotions, we rely more on habits and usually bad habits. more on habits and usually bad habits. more on habits and usually bad habits. And so to build that space between the And so to build that space between the And so to build that space between the stimulus and response, like the question stimulus and response, like the question stimulus and response, like the question always people say, "What is that What do always people say, "What is that What do always people say, "What is that What do you do with that space? How long is the you do with that space? How long is the you do with that space? How long is the space?" And you know, some people say, space?" And you know, some people say, space?" And you know, some people say, "I don't need a meta moment, which is "I don't need a meta moment, which is "I don't need a meta moment, which is one of our tools. I need a mega moment, one of our tools. I need a mega moment, one of our tools. I need a mega moment, you know?" you know?" you know?" And maybe you do. Maybe you need to take And maybe you do. Maybe you need to take And maybe you do. Maybe you need to take three loops around the house before you three loops around the house before you three loops around the house before you walk into the door to get your kind of walk into the door to get your kind of walk into the door to get your kind of parasympathetic nervous system where it parasympathetic nervous system where it parasympathetic nervous system where it needs to be. needs to be. needs to be. That is the key to emotion regulation That is the key to emotion regulation That is the key to emotion regulation right there. right there. right there. We had um Richie Davidson on the podcast We had um Richie Davidson on the podcast We had um Richie Davidson on the podcast and he talked about this myth about and he talked about this myth about and he talked about this myth about meditation that it's supposed to clear meditation that it's supposed to clear meditation that it's supposed to clear the mind and make you relax. And he said the mind and make you relax. And he said the mind and make you relax. And he said it's it's actually really about stress it's it's actually really about stress it's it's actually really about stress tolerance. You're supposed to sit there tolerance. You're supposed to sit there tolerance. You're supposed to sit there and and and resist the temptation to get up and resist the temptation to get up and resist the temptation to get up and move. Like it's really stress move. Like it's really stress move. Like it's really stress inoculation, which I think is a really inoculation, which I think is a really inoculation, which I think is a really beautiful way of thinking about and beautiful way of thinking about and beautiful way of thinking about and different way of thinking about different way of thinking about different way of thinking about meditation. So, do you recommend that meditation. So, do you recommend that meditation. So, do you recommend that people meditate in order to become people meditate in order to become people meditate in order to become better emotion regulators? 100%. better emotion regulators? 100%. better emotion regulators? 100%. Especially because Especially because Especially because if you can't be still, it's going to be if you can't be still, it's going to be if you can't be still, it's going to be hard to access the good strategies. hard to access the good strategies. hard to access the good strategies. It's a necessary but insufficient It's a necessary but insufficient It's a necessary but insufficient strategy. I know that we're obsessed in strategy. I know that we're obsessed in strategy. I know that we're obsessed in our world right now with breathing and our world right now with breathing and our world right now with breathing and mindfulness and mindfulness and mindfulness and it's great. it's great. it's great. Um but it's not enough. Um but it's not enough. Um but it's not enough. You at the end I'm going to have to have You at the end I'm going to have to have You at the end I'm going to have to have the difficult conversation and and the difficult conversation and and the difficult conversation and and regulate during that conversation. I regulate during that conversation. I regulate during that conversation. I can't be in my room by myself can't be in my room by myself can't be in my room by myself meditating. meditating. meditating. I always joke with my, you know, I open I always joke with my, you know, I open I always joke with my, you know, I open my book with that story of my my book with that story of my my book with that story of my mother-in-law and I would take a breath. mother-in-law and I would take a breath. mother-in-law and I would take a breath. Ah, it's even clearer why you have to Ah, it's even clearer why you have to Ah, it's even clearer why you have to get the hell out of my house. Right? So, get the hell out of my house. Right? So, get the hell out of my house. Right? So, like the breath may help you deactivate, like the breath may help you deactivate, like the breath may help you deactivate, but it doesn't necessarily shift your but it doesn't necessarily shift your but it doesn't necessarily shift your perspective. Mhm. That's the mindfulness perspective. Mhm. That's the mindfulness perspective. Mhm. That's the mindfulness work. Mhm. And I want to jump in now work. Mhm. And I want to jump in now work. Mhm. And I want to jump in now because I think because I think because I think even the taking the moment to recognize even the taking the moment to recognize even the taking the moment to recognize you need to take this meta moment is a you need to take this meta moment is a you need to take this meta moment is a mindset piece. It's saying mindset piece. It's saying mindset piece. It's saying emotion regulation is important. emotion regulation is important. emotion regulation is important. I'll be a better version of myself if I I'll be a better version of myself if I I'll be a better version of myself if I don't walk into my house in this angry don't walk into my house in this angry don't walk into my house in this angry state and project it onto everybody state and project it onto everybody state and project it onto everybody else. else. else. But that's we've only gone through one But that's we've only gone through one But that's we've only gone through one of like eight domains that I think are of like eight domains that I think are of like eight domains that I think are important. The next is like you got to important. The next is like you got to important. The next is like you got to know what you're feeling know what you're feeling know what you're feeling because the feeling, as I said in my formula the feeling, as I said in my formula earlier, is going to drive the strategy earlier, is going to drive the strategy earlier, is going to drive the strategy selection. selection. selection. So that labeling piece is really So that labeling piece is really So that labeling piece is really important and I find that people's important and I find that people's important and I find that people's vocabularies is just awful. vocabularies is just awful. vocabularies is just awful. People I'm fine. Okay, I'm upset. People I'm fine. Okay, I'm upset. People I'm fine. Okay, I'm upset. Yeah, I don't think we did this last Yeah, I don't think we did this last Yeah, I don't think we did this last time, but if I were to push you time, but if I were to push you time, but if I were to push you anxiety versus fear versus pressure anxiety versus fear versus pressure anxiety versus fear versus pressure Um Um Um Um Um Um >> versus stress. Uh I've thought about >> versus stress. Uh I've thought about >> versus stress. Uh I've thought about these before, so it but it ends up being these before, so it but it ends up being these before, so it but it ends up being hairsplitting. hairsplitting. hairsplitting. And then I go into scientific And then I go into scientific And then I go into scientific operational definitions, so operational definitions, so operational definitions, so yeah, you know, anxiety kind of a a yeah, you know, anxiety kind of a a yeah, you know, anxiety kind of a a generalized state of too much generalized state of too much generalized state of too much sympathetic arousal, you know, stress sympathetic arousal, you know, stress sympathetic arousal, you know, stress is one or usually I'd add to that, you is one or usually I'd add to that, you is one or usually I'd add to that, you know, one or several things that I can know, one or several things that I can know, one or several things that I can pinpoint as kind of a source of that pinpoint as kind of a source of that pinpoint as kind of a source of that elevated level of arousal. Um elevated level of arousal. Um elevated level of arousal. Um you know, panic would be if it if you you know, panic would be if it if you you know, panic would be if it if you gotten so far outside the um time domain gotten so far outside the um time domain gotten so far outside the um time domain perspective like that perspective like that perspective like that the physiology overtakes and overwhelms. the physiology overtakes and overwhelms. the physiology overtakes and overwhelms. Like I get into my scientific definition Like I get into my scientific definition Like I get into my scientific definition >> interesting because >> interesting because >> interesting because a lot of people well, some most people a lot of people well, some most people a lot of people well, some most people by the way say it's all the same by the way say it's all the same by the way say it's all the same Mhm. They it's all one big Yeah. Mhm. They it's all one big Yeah. Mhm. They it's all one big Yeah. >> Yeah, you're you know, technical. You're >> Yeah, you're you know, technical. You're >> Yeah, you're you know, technical. You're like, well, this is cortisol and this like, well, this is cortisol and this like, well, this is cortisol and this is, you know, epinephrine and this is is, you know, epinephrine and this is is, you know, epinephrine and this is this. And that's all good, too. But in this. And that's all good, too. But in this. And that's all good, too. But in the end the end the end what you're regulating often times is what you're regulating often times is what you're regulating often times is the the the underneath the emotion. underneath the emotion. underneath the emotion. And so anxiety And so anxiety And so anxiety uncertainty around the future. uncertainty around the future. uncertainty around the future. Right, I get anxious when I can't Right, I get anxious when I can't Right, I get anxious when I can't predict. predict. predict. That's really what deep anxiety is. I That's really what deep anxiety is. I That's really what deep anxiety is. I want everything to be exactly the way I want everything to be exactly the way I want everything to be exactly the way I want it to be want it to be want it to be and I can't control that. So, oh. and I can't control that. So, oh. and I can't control that. So, oh. Stress is having too many demands and Stress is having too many demands and Stress is having too many demands and not enough resources. not enough resources. not enough resources. Pressure or something at stake is Pressure or something at stake is Pressure or something at stake is dependent upon your behavior. Fear is dependent upon your behavior. Fear is dependent upon your behavior. Fear is immediate danger. immediate danger. immediate danger. So, when I give you those kind of what So, when I give you those kind of what So, when I give you those kind of what we call in psychology the core we call in psychology the core we call in psychology the core relational themes, relational themes, relational themes, the appraisals that are part of those the appraisals that are part of those the appraisals that are part of those emotions. emotions. emotions. Does it make you see how your strategy Does it make you see how your strategy Does it make you see how your strategy choice might be different? Yeah, choice might be different? Yeah, choice might be different? Yeah, definitely. definitely. definitely. Um Um Um and speaking of, you know, and speaking of, you know, and speaking of, you know, I doubt it's just two bins, but I doubt it's just two bins, but I doubt it's just two bins, but I've heard once that, you know, some I've heard once that, you know, some I've heard once that, you know, some people need to learn to externalize and people need to learn to externalize and people need to learn to externalize and or to talk about their feelings more, or to talk about their feelings more, or to talk about their feelings more, other people probably less. I've heard other people probably less. I've heard other people probably less. I've heard this. this. this. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. For sure. For sure. For sure. >> I'm I'm I'm friends with a couple and >> I'm I'm I'm friends with a couple and >> I'm I'm I'm friends with a couple and one of them says one of them says one of them says she's a She calls herself an external she's a She calls herself an external she's a She calls herself an external processor. So, if something's bothering processor. So, if something's bothering processor. So, if something's bothering her, she has to externally process it. her, she has to externally process it. her, she has to externally process it. And then her wife is an internal And then her wife is an internal And then her wife is an internal processor. And so, this obviously processor. And so, this obviously processor. And so, this obviously they've worked this out and it's pretty they've worked this out and it's pretty they've worked this out and it's pretty cool to see how they do it, but but I cool to see how they do it, but but I cool to see how they do it, but but I was like, is that really a thing? was like, is that really a thing? was like, is that really a thing? External processor, internal processor? External processor, internal processor? External processor, internal processor? And then, of course, my gender biases And then, of course, my gender biases And then, of course, my gender biases show up. I go, well, you're two women, show up. I go, well, you're two women, show up. I go, well, you're two women, so like that maybe that language is used so like that maybe that language is used so like that maybe that language is used but like in in heterosexual but like in in heterosexual but like in in heterosexual relationships it's different, you know. relationships it's different, you know. relationships it's different, you know. Sure. And we laughed about it and they Sure. And we laughed about it and they Sure. And we laughed about it and they explained like, no, cuz actually one of explained like, no, cuz actually one of explained like, no, cuz actually one of them turns out to be a therapist. So, them turns out to be a therapist. So, them turns out to be a therapist. So, she's like, no, I have actually many she's like, no, I have actually many she's like, no, I have actually many male, female couple clients. So, she's a male, female couple clients. So, she's a male, female couple clients. So, she's a couples therapist. So, I got flipped on couples therapist. So, I got flipped on couples therapist. So, I got flipped on my back with that one. The thing that I my back with that one. The thing that I my back with that one. The thing that I I find that I I keep projecting into I find that I I keep projecting into I find that I I keep projecting into everything I'm hearing. And and everything I'm hearing. And and everything I'm hearing. And and I want to put the little asterisk here I want to put the little asterisk here I want to put the little asterisk here and say that and say that and say that the reason I share these like things the reason I share these like things the reason I share these like things that are happening inside is I like to that are happening inside is I like to that are happening inside is I like to think that they're perhaps a proxy for think that they're perhaps a proxy for think that they're perhaps a proxy for what some people are thinking. what some people are thinking. what some people are thinking. Um or not. Um or not. Um or not. But But But it's that it's that it's that we really at least in in the United we really at least in in the United we really at least in in the United States, we really are not a culture States, we really are not a culture States, we really are not a culture that's clearly defined its terms, let that's clearly defined its terms, let that's clearly defined its terms, let alone its ways of being around emotions. alone its ways of being around emotions. alone its ways of being around emotions. >> Mhm. Like this is not like my dad >> Mhm. Like this is not like my dad >> Mhm. Like this is not like my dad growing up in Argentina in a certain era growing up in Argentina in a certain era growing up in Argentina in a certain era where sure there was a range but um the where sure there was a range but um the where sure there was a range but um the culture was fairly clearly defined. I culture was fairly clearly defined. I culture was fairly clearly defined. I mean here we've got it all like I do men mean here we've got it all like I do men mean here we've got it all like I do men expressing anger. expressing anger. expressing anger. Some people call that passionate Some people call that passionate Some people call that passionate depending on what it's about. Other depending on what it's about. Other depending on what it's about. Other people call that scary and disregulated. people call that scary and disregulated. people call that scary and disregulated. >> Mhm. It goes back to your relationship >> Mhm. It goes back to your relationship >> Mhm. It goes back to your relationship with anger. And so, you know, we with anger. And so, you know, we with anger. And so, you know, we construct these emotions in our brains construct these emotions in our brains construct these emotions in our brains based on our experiences. based on our experiences. based on our experiences. So, I grew up with a dad who had, you So, I grew up with a dad who had, you So, I grew up with a dad who had, you know, you know, pressed lips and red know, you know, pressed lips and red know, you know, pressed lips and red face and look like he was going to like face and look like he was going to like face and look like he was going to like take his belt off and whack me. And so, take his belt off and whack me. And so, take his belt off and whack me. And so, my my my perception of anger is probably perception of anger is probably perception of anger is probably different than your perception different than your perception different than your perception perception based on our upbringing. And perception based on our upbringing. And perception based on our upbringing. And that's just we have to acknowledge that. that's just we have to acknowledge that. that's just we have to acknowledge that. Now, Now, Now, I could be over reacting to anger, which I could be over reacting to anger, which I could be over reacting to anger, which is not going to be helpful in my life. is not going to be helpful in my life. is not going to be helpful in my life. So, I've got to learn to realize not So, I've got to learn to realize not So, I've got to learn to realize not everybody's like your dad. Some people everybody's like your dad. Some people everybody's like your dad. Some people can be angry and not aggressive. But can be angry and not aggressive. But can be angry and not aggressive. But that's that's the emotional intelligence that's that's the emotional intelligence that's that's the emotional intelligence journey of learning. If I had no journey of learning. If I had no journey of learning. If I had no cultivating of skills, cultivating of skills, cultivating of skills, I would just assume I would just assume I would just assume that's anger. Mhm. And that's not anger. that's anger. Mhm. And that's not anger. that's anger. Mhm. And that's not anger. That's one way of expressing anger that That's one way of expressing anger that That's one way of expressing anger that I learned. And I think people get caught I learned. And I think people get caught I learned. And I think people get caught up in that. They get attached to what up in that. They get attached to what up in that. They get attached to what they learned early in life and don't they learned early in life and don't they learned early in life and don't realize there's a there's another way. realize there's a there's another way. realize there's a there's another way. It's kind of why people often times get It's kind of why people often times get It's kind of why people often times get stuck with trauma. stuck with trauma. stuck with trauma. Because they they are fixated on that Because they they are fixated on that Because they they are fixated on that experience that they had. And they experience that they had. And they experience that they had. And they haven't learned how to reframe or haven't learned how to reframe or haven't learned how to reframe or haven't learned how to compartmentalize haven't learned how to compartmentalize haven't learned how to compartmentalize that particular experience in their that particular experience in their that particular experience in their lives. lives. lives. I'd like to take a quick break and I'd like to take a quick break and I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, acknowledge one of our sponsors, acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink Element. Element is an electrolyte drink Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing that has everything you need and nothing that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, you don't. That means the electrolytes, you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body hydration is critical for brain and body hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of function. Even a slight degree of function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive dehydration can diminish your cognitive dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also and physical performance. It's also and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate important that you get adequate important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for magnesium, and potassium, are vital for magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your the functioning of all cells in your the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your body, especially your neurons or your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting very easy to ensure that you're getting very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate adequate hydration and adequate adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start electrolytes. My days tend to start electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump really fast, meaning I have to jump really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. right into work or right into exercise. right into work or right into exercise. So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I have sufficient electrolytes, when I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 oz of water with an Element packet to 32 oz of water with an Element packet to 32 oz of water with an Element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of dissolved in water during any kind of dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, physical exercise that I'm doing, physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating especially on hot days when I'm sweating especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. a lot and losing water and electrolytes. a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great-tasting Element has a bunch of great-tasting Element has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I flavors. In fact, I love them all. I flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the love the watermelon, the raspberry, the love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade citrus, and I really love the lemonade citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like to try flavor. So, if you'd like to try flavor. So, if you'd like to try Element, you can go to Element, you can go to Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman drinkelement.com/huberman drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with to claim a free Element sample pack with to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's any purchase. Again, that's any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman drinkelement.com/huberman drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. to claim a free sample pack. to claim a free sample pack. So, thus far we've highlighted at least So, thus far we've highlighted at least So, thus far we've highlighted at least one thing that can be very useful one thing that can be very useful one thing that can be very useful for emotion regulation, which is for emotion regulation, which is for emotion regulation, which is the, you know, some short form of the, you know, some short form of the, you know, some short form of meditation for stress tolerance that can meditation for stress tolerance that can meditation for stress tolerance that can give somebody a a create a gap or a give somebody a a create a gap or a give somebody a a create a gap or a an opportunity in a moment to at least an opportunity in a moment to at least an opportunity in a moment to at least take some time and regulate a bit. take some time and regulate a bit. take some time and regulate a bit. >> Mhm. I'd like to layer on something else >> Mhm. I'd like to layer on something else >> Mhm. I'd like to layer on something else which I'm hearing, I don't want to put which I'm hearing, I don't want to put which I'm hearing, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that I'm words in your mouth, but that I'm words in your mouth, but that I'm hearing which is we should all hearing which is we should all hearing which is we should all know know know our assumptions or our presumptions our assumptions or our presumptions our assumptions or our presumptions based on our upbringing. based on our upbringing. based on our upbringing. >> Correct. Like we need to do this for >> Correct. Like we need to do this for >> Correct. Like we need to do this for ourselves. No one can do it for us. No ourselves. No one can do it for us. No ourselves. No one can do it for us. No single article is going to spell out the single article is going to spell out the single article is going to spell out the full array of ways that one full array of ways that one full array of ways that one conceptualizes anger or sadness for men, conceptualizes anger or sadness for men, conceptualizes anger or sadness for men, for women, for straight people, for gay for women, for straight people, for gay for women, for straight people, for gay people. Like, but this space is actually people. Like, but this space is actually people. Like, but this space is actually worth thinking about, right? Uh right worth thinking about, right? Uh right worth thinking about, right? Uh right now there's a there's a little bit of a now there's a there's a little bit of a now there's a there's a little bit of a battle against introspection. This is battle against introspection. This is battle against introspection. This is not introspection, I want to be very not introspection, I want to be very not introspection, I want to be very clear. Um that's a separate matter, but clear. Um that's a separate matter, but clear. Um that's a separate matter, but this is really just what any really good this is really just what any really good this is really just what any really good scientist would do is to know your scientist would do is to know your scientist would do is to know your assumptions before you generate a assumptions before you generate a assumptions before you generate a hypothesis. I mean, it is introspection. hypothesis. I mean, it is introspection. hypothesis. I mean, it is introspection. I mean Okay, fair. I mean Okay, fair. I mean Okay, fair. >> But just like anything >> But just like anything >> But just like anything over introspection leads to rumination. over introspection leads to rumination. over introspection leads to rumination. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And so, we're not recommending like I >> And so, we're not recommending like I >> And so, we're not recommending like I don't want you, Andrew, to like be don't want you, Andrew, to like be don't want you, Andrew, to like be obsessively, compulsively checking in obsessively, compulsively checking in obsessively, compulsively checking in with how you're feeling all day long. with how you're feeling all day long. with how you're feeling all day long. That is unhelpful. It's bad, bad, bad. That is unhelpful. It's bad, bad, bad. That is unhelpful. It's bad, bad, bad. Some people would say that's I need to Some people would say that's I need to Some people would say that's I need to do more of that. Maybe you do. I I I do more of that. Maybe you do. I I I do more of that. Maybe you do. I I I don't. I don't think so. don't. I don't think so. don't. I don't think so. Emotions matter when they're going to Emotions matter when they're going to Emotions matter when they're going to either help or interfere with our either help or interfere with our either help or interfere with our performance. That's when we have to performance. That's when we have to performance. That's when we have to check in. Most of the time, thank check in. Most of the time, thank check in. Most of the time, thank goodness, they're in the background. goodness, they're in the background. goodness, they're in the background. Yeah. You know, when you're driving, you Yeah. You know, when you're driving, you Yeah. You know, when you're driving, you know, you're not thinking, "How am I know, you're not thinking, "How am I know, you're not thinking, "How am I feeling? How am I feeling?" It'd be feeling? How am I feeling?" It'd be feeling? How am I feeling?" It'd be weird. Like that would just be weird. weird. Like that would just be weird. weird. Like that would just be weird. And you don't want to do that. But And you don't want to do that. But And you don't want to do that. But checking in with one's assumptions based checking in with one's assumptions based checking in with one's assumptions based on our upbringing, I think would be very on our upbringing, I think would be very on our upbringing, I think would be very useful. useful. useful. >> Very. Well, that's the point. >> Very. Well, that's the point. >> Very. Well, that's the point. >> And has that been formalized into a You >> And has that been formalized into a You >> And has that been formalized into a You know, people love questionnaires. I I know, people love questionnaires. I I know, people love questionnaires. I I think if it hasn't been done, I think think if it hasn't been done, I think think if it hasn't been done, I think it'd be amazing. About 8 months ago, I it'd be amazing. About 8 months ago, I it'd be amazing. About 8 months ago, I had this wild experience had this wild experience had this wild experience where where where I realized I I realized I I realized I had this massive assumption worked into had this massive assumption worked into had this massive assumption worked into my framework. So, I had these friends my framework. So, I had these friends my framework. So, I had these friends and I was visiting them and they called and I was visiting them and they called and I was visiting them and they called me upstairs and there was a bird flying me upstairs and there was a bird flying me upstairs and there was a bird flying around and it was like flying into the around and it was like flying into the around and it was like flying into the windows. windows. windows. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And And And I was like, "Oh my god." You know, I had I was like, "Oh my god." You know, I had I was like, "Oh my god." You know, I had birds growing up. birds growing up. birds growing up. Kiwi and Sugar Ray Leonard were like my Kiwi and Sugar Ray Leonard were like my Kiwi and Sugar Ray Leonard were like my life before I hit puberty and life before I hit puberty and life before I hit puberty and birds were my life, you know, I birds were my life, you know, I birds were my life, you know, I loved birds. I loved animals of all loved birds. I loved animals of all loved birds. I loved animals of all kinds. And I I was looking up there and kinds. And I I was looking up there and kinds. And I I was looking up there and this bird's just flying into the window. this bird's just flying into the window. this bird's just flying into the window. It's not going to make it out and it's It's not going to make it out and it's It's not going to make it out and it's just doing immense damage to itself. just doing immense damage to itself. just doing immense damage to itself. And one of them said, you know, oh, he And one of them said, you know, oh, he And one of them said, you know, oh, he keeps keeps keeps flying against the window. flying against the window. flying against the window. I was like, okay, and I tried to get him I was like, okay, and I tried to get him I was like, okay, and I tried to get him out and I I couldn't get him out. Really out and I I couldn't get him out. Really out and I I couldn't get him out. Really high ceilings. We didn't have the right high ceilings. We didn't have the right high ceilings. We didn't have the right thing. And I said, you know, I'm just thing. And I said, you know, I'm just thing. And I said, you know, I'm just going to open the windows, go going to open the windows, go going to open the windows, go downstairs, come back, and check and and downstairs, come back, and check and and downstairs, come back, and check and and I ended up going back. I ended up going back. I ended up going back. And um they said, "What Is he okay? Is And um they said, "What Is he okay? Is And um they said, "What Is he okay? Is he okay?" And I'm like, no, this this is he okay?" And I'm like, no, this this is he okay?" And I'm like, no, this this is some like this some like this some like this idiot bird is like flying into the idiot bird is like flying into the idiot bird is like flying into the window. He's like this window. He's like this window. He's like this is going to kill himself. is going to kill himself. is going to kill himself. He got out eventually. And about 2 weeks He got out eventually. And about 2 weeks He got out eventually. And about 2 weeks later, one of them called me and said, later, one of them called me and said, later, one of them called me and said, "Listen, I really need to talk to you "Listen, I really need to talk to you "Listen, I really need to talk to you about something. It's really been on my about something. It's really been on my about something. It's really been on my mind." I was like, okay. mind." I was like, okay. mind." I was like, okay. And uh And uh And uh and she said, "You know, I was really and she said, "You know, I was really and she said, "You know, I was really disturbed how you reacted." disturbed how you reacted." disturbed how you reacted." >> Mhm. I was like, what do you mean? I was >> Mhm. I was like, what do you mean? I was >> Mhm. I was like, what do you mean? I was like, I was like trying to help the like, I was like trying to help the like, I was like trying to help the bird. Like, you know, I love animals. I bird. Like, you know, I love animals. I bird. Like, you know, I love animals. I mean, I really do. I mean, one of the mean, I really do. I mean, one of the mean, I really do. I mean, one of the reasons I like doing the work I do now reasons I like doing the work I do now reasons I like doing the work I do now instead of what I used to do is I don't instead of what I used to do is I don't instead of what I used to do is I don't have to work on animals anymore. I hated have to work on animals anymore. I hated have to work on animals anymore. I hated it, honestly. Um you know, I understand it, honestly. Um you know, I understand it, honestly. Um you know, I understand why it has to be done in many cases, but why it has to be done in many cases, but why it has to be done in many cases, but I hated it. So, I hated it. So, I hated it. So, she said, "Well, just you're talking to she said, "Well, just you're talking to she said, "Well, just you're talking to this bird like he's an idiot." this bird like he's an idiot." this bird like he's an idiot." And I realized in that moment, I was And I realized in that moment, I was And I realized in that moment, I was like, oh, like, oh, like, oh, I was like, if you had said, "Oh, that I was like, if you had said, "Oh, that I was like, if you had said, "Oh, that poor girl, she's she's flying against poor girl, she's she's flying against poor girl, she's she's flying against the window." I've been like, "Oh, the the window." I've been like, "Oh, the the window." I've been like, "Oh, the poor thing. Like, she really needs it." poor thing. Like, she really needs it." poor thing. Like, she really needs it." You know, and I immediately realized You know, and I immediately realized You know, and I immediately realized this like strong this like strong this like strong sex / gender bias that I had that if a sex / gender bias that I had that if a sex / gender bias that I had that if a that if a that if a that if a female animal is somehow damaging female animal is somehow damaging female animal is somehow damaging herself, like, "Oh, my god, help her, herself, like, "Oh, my god, help her, herself, like, "Oh, my god, help her, save her." And with with him, same if save her." And with with him, same if save her." And with with him, same if it's a boy, same thing. I want to help. it's a boy, same thing. I want to help. it's a boy, same thing. I want to help. But then my my assumption was, "You But then my my assumption was, "You But then my my assumption was, "You idiot." idiot." idiot." Like, you idiot. Like like I would, you Like, you idiot. Like like I would, you Like, you idiot. Like like I would, you know, and I realized I grew up in a big know, and I realized I grew up in a big know, and I realized I grew up in a big pack of dudes. When someone does pack of dudes. When someone does pack of dudes. When someone does something stupid, you're like, "Dude, something stupid, you're like, "Dude, something stupid, you're like, "Dude, you're an idiot. Like, what are you you're an idiot. Like, what are you you're an idiot. Like, what are you doing?" But it's a it was actually to me doing?" But it's a it was actually to me doing?" But it's a it was actually to me it was a it was a motive affection. I'm it was a it was a motive affection. I'm it was a it was a motive affection. I'm sure I sure I sure I I upset some people by saying this, but I upset some people by saying this, but I upset some people by saying this, but in full disclosure, I just had this in full disclosure, I just had this in full disclosure, I just had this massive assumption. And I've actually massive assumption. And I've actually massive assumption. And I've actually had to pay attention to that going had to pay attention to that going had to pay attention to that going forward. But I didn't realize I had that forward. But I didn't realize I had that forward. But I didn't realize I had that really strong bias. really strong bias. really strong bias. I guess this is all going to that I guess this is all going to that I guess this is all going to that mindset area of emotion regulation. I mindset area of emotion regulation. I mindset area of emotion regulation. I mean, parents have that with their kids. mean, parents have that with their kids. mean, parents have that with their kids. I can't tell you how many kids, you I can't tell you how many kids, you I can't tell you how many kids, you know, you observe a parent with their know, you observe a parent with their know, you observe a parent with their son or daughter, it doesn't matter, and son or daughter, it doesn't matter, and son or daughter, it doesn't matter, and the kid is trying to um the kid is trying to um the kid is trying to um like climb a rock, like climb a rock, like climb a rock, and the parent, because of their own and the parent, because of their own and the parent, because of their own fears, you know, "Oh my god, honey, be fears, you know, "Oh my god, honey, be fears, you know, "Oh my god, honey, be careful. Be careful. Be careful." careful. Be careful. Be careful." careful. Be careful. Be careful." And all of a sudden the kid is losing And all of a sudden the kid is losing And all of a sudden the kid is losing their self-confidence to climb the their self-confidence to climb the their self-confidence to climb the thing, as opposed to a parent who's thing, as opposed to a parent who's thing, as opposed to a parent who's skillful, skillful, skillful, you know, who you know, who you know, who checks their assumptions, you know, "I'm checks their assumptions, you know, "I'm checks their assumptions, you know, "I'm nervous. Okay, fine, you're nervous. You nervous. Okay, fine, you're nervous. You nervous. Okay, fine, you're nervous. You know, you're probably your kid's know, you're probably your kid's know, you're probably your kid's probably not going to get hurt. Take a probably not going to get hurt. Take a probably not going to get hurt. Take a deep breath. Take a breath." deep breath. Take a breath." deep breath. Take a breath." And maybe say something like, "Honey, And maybe say something like, "Honey, And maybe say something like, "Honey, gosh, that looks like it's really hard. gosh, that looks like it's really hard. gosh, that looks like it's really hard. I'm pretty confident you're going to get I'm pretty confident you're going to get I'm pretty confident you're going to get there. there. there. Let me just come a little closer to be Let me just come a little closer to be Let me just come a little closer to be there just in case something goes wrong, there just in case something goes wrong, there just in case something goes wrong, but I really do think you're going to but I really do think you're going to but I really do think you're going to make it." make it." make it." What do you think that's instilling in What do you think that's instilling in What do you think that's instilling in the kid? the kid? the kid? Totally different way of thinking about Totally different way of thinking about Totally different way of thinking about it. it. it. And so that parent's assumption that And so that parent's assumption that And so that parent's assumption that person parent's fears is being person parent's fears is being person parent's fears is being projected. If they're a more projected. If they're a more projected. If they're a more skilled at coregulating and recognizing skilled at coregulating and recognizing skilled at coregulating and recognizing my job is to instill resilience in my my job is to instill resilience in my my job is to instill resilience in my kid. My job is to help my kid feel like kid. My job is to help my kid feel like kid. My job is to help my kid feel like they can do it on their own, cuz that's they can do it on their own, cuz that's they can do it on their own, cuz that's what this work on coregulation I'm what this work on coregulation I'm what this work on coregulation I'm doing, which I think is so important, is doing, which I think is so important, is doing, which I think is so important, is this intentional this intentional this intentional You're being super intentional about You're being super intentional about You're being super intentional about supporting other people in managing supporting other people in managing supporting other people in managing their emotions, their emotions, their emotions, but they the whole goal of it is but they the whole goal of it is but they the whole goal of it is to support the other person in being to support the other person in being to support the other person in being capable of regulating on their own capable of regulating on their own capable of regulating on their own eventually. eventually. eventually. Not codependent, not coddling, but Not codependent, not coddling, but Not codependent, not coddling, but actually instilling the belief actually instilling the belief actually instilling the belief in the other person that they can do it. in the other person that they can do it. in the other person that they can do it. I love that. I I guess what I'd love to I love that. I I guess what I'd love to I love that. I I guess what I'd love to know is is there a formal process know is is there a formal process know is is there a formal process or questionnaire, etc., to learning to or questionnaire, etc., to learning to or questionnaire, etc., to learning to understand one's own understand one's own understand one's own kind of the word bias is so loaded. The kind of the word bias is so loaded. The kind of the word bias is so loaded. The word bias is biased, but to really parse word bias is biased, but to really parse word bias is biased, but to really parse like, oh, this is how I conceive the like, oh, this is how I conceive the like, oh, this is how I conceive the world in and around emotions, gender world in and around emotions, gender world in and around emotions, gender gender specific emotions cuz I think gender specific emotions cuz I think gender specific emotions cuz I think that'd just be very useful. Because then that'd just be very useful. Because then that'd just be very useful. Because then it allows somebody to do what you just it allows somebody to do what you just it allows somebody to do what you just described described described and really know the difference between and really know the difference between and really know the difference between helping somebody get to the point where helping somebody get to the point where helping somebody get to the point where they can manage their they can manage their they can manage their work with their emotions on their own work with their emotions on their own work with their emotions on their own versus projecting our own beliefs versus projecting our own beliefs versus projecting our own beliefs around, hey, this is the way it's around, hey, this is the way it's around, hey, this is the way it's supposed to be done. Exactly. Yes, there supposed to be done. Exactly. Yes, there supposed to be done. Exactly. Yes, there are plenty of surveys actually. In my are plenty of surveys actually. In my are plenty of surveys actually. In my book I even give people a list of them. book I even give people a list of them. book I even give people a list of them. You can play around with that and just You can play around with that and just You can play around with that and just look at your mindsets and attitudes look at your mindsets and attitudes look at your mindsets and attitudes about them and you'll see patterns. I about them and you'll see patterns. I about them and you'll see patterns. I had no cognitive awareness that I had had no cognitive awareness that I had had no cognitive awareness that I had this weird relationship to happiness this weird relationship to happiness this weird relationship to happiness until I did my own exercise. until I did my own exercise. until I did my own exercise. And it was eye-opening for me. And it's And it was eye-opening for me. And it's And it was eye-opening for me. And it's actually I've set goals for myself. It's actually I've set goals for myself. It's actually I've set goals for myself. It's like, Mark, like, Mark, like, Mark, people want when they're applauding you, people want when they're applauding you, people want when they're applauding you, when you're giving your speech, let them when you're giving your speech, let them when you're giving your speech, let them enjoy it. They're If they're applauding, enjoy it. They're If they're applauding, enjoy it. They're If they're applauding, it means it was good. Don't be like, uh, it means it was good. Don't be like, uh, it means it was good. Don't be like, uh, you know, like you know, like you know, like breathe, be present, breathe, be present, breathe, be present, and take it in. And actually it works. and take it in. And actually it works. and take it in. And actually it works. It's a beautiful phenomenon. It's a beautiful phenomenon. It's a beautiful phenomenon. The awareness of our programming The awareness of our programming The awareness of our programming can liberate us from so many painful can liberate us from so many painful can liberate us from so many painful things. things. things. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We spent a lot of time on this, which is We spent a lot of time on this, which is We spent a lot of time on this, which is interesting cuz I don't usually spend so interesting cuz I don't usually spend so interesting cuz I don't usually spend so much time talking about these much time talking about these much time talking about these assumptions and mindsets and beliefs. assumptions and mindsets and beliefs. assumptions and mindsets and beliefs. We spent some time talking about the We spent some time talking about the We spent some time talking about the vocabulary words, which is very vocabulary words, which is very vocabulary words, which is very important. You got to be self-aware. important. You got to be self-aware. important. You got to be self-aware. Anger is not the same as disappointment. Anger is not the same as disappointment. Anger is not the same as disappointment. Envy is not the same as jealousy. Envy is not the same as jealousy. Envy is not the same as jealousy. Happiness is not the same as Happiness is not the same as Happiness is not the same as contentment. Anxiety, stress, pressure, contentment. Anxiety, stress, pressure, contentment. Anxiety, stress, pressure, and fear, and overwhelmed are all and fear, and overwhelmed are all and fear, and overwhelmed are all different. different. different. And I know people listening might be And I know people listening might be And I know people listening might be like, oh my god, you're overwhelming me, like, oh my god, you're overwhelming me, like, oh my god, you're overwhelming me, but you know, we have our app that but you know, we have our app that but you know, we have our app that you've seen, the How We Feel app, to you've seen, the How We Feel app, to you've seen, the How We Feel app, to give you that vocabulary. give you that vocabulary. give you that vocabulary. And it really does matter. It matters And it really does matter. It matters And it really does matter. It matters for communication. It matters for for communication. It matters for for communication. It matters for getting your needs met. It matters for getting your needs met. It matters for getting your needs met. It matters for choosing the strategy. choosing the strategy. choosing the strategy. But again, it's not enough. But again, it's not enough. But again, it's not enough. So you got to know how to breathe and So you got to know how to breathe and So you got to know how to breathe and you have to do your mindfulness work to you have to do your mindfulness work to you have to do your mindfulness work to bring the temperature down, to still bring the temperature down, to still bring the temperature down, to still your mind. your mind. your mind. I mean, think about our minds nowadays. I mean, think about our minds nowadays. I mean, think about our minds nowadays. I mean, they're just I mean, they're just I mean, they're just the ability to process information has the ability to process information has the ability to process information has dwindled completely. Just to give you dwindled completely. Just to give you dwindled completely. Just to give you one example, we used to do like 2 and one example, we used to do like 2 and one example, we used to do like 2 and 1/2 minute videos for trainings. 1/2 minute videos for trainings. 1/2 minute videos for trainings. People won't get through them. People won't get through them. People won't get through them. 30 seconds. 30 seconds. 30 seconds. And this is why people aren't learning And this is why people aren't learning And this is why people aren't learning anything anymore, cuz you How you going anything anymore, cuz you How you going anything anymore, cuz you How you going to teach an emotion regulation strategy to teach an emotion regulation strategy to teach an emotion regulation strategy in 30 seconds? It's like an Instagram in 30 seconds? It's like an Instagram in 30 seconds? It's like an Instagram post. post. post. Of course, that's driving me crazy, too, Of course, that's driving me crazy, too, Of course, that's driving me crazy, too, cuz so many influencers are My favorite cuz so many influencers are My favorite cuz so many influencers are My favorite one recently was this very famous one recently was this very famous one recently was this very famous influencer teaching about emotion influencer teaching about emotion influencer teaching about emotion regulation. regulation. regulation. And she said, you know, I've decided to And she said, you know, I've decided to And she said, you know, I've decided to throw away my anxiety. throw away my anxiety. throw away my anxiety. And so, she's in the car, and she opens And so, she's in the car, and she opens And so, she's in the car, and she opens the door, and she's like, "Goodbye, the door, and she's like, "Goodbye, the door, and she's like, "Goodbye, anxiety." anxiety." anxiety." And I'm thinking to myself, like, that And I'm thinking to myself, like, that And I'm thinking to myself, like, that door is going to hit you so hard in the door is going to hit you so hard in the door is going to hit you so hard in the face. face. face. But yet, 3,000, 5,000, 25, whatever But yet, 3,000, 5,000, 25, whatever But yet, 3,000, 5,000, 25, whatever likes, and people are like, "Oh my god, likes, and people are like, "Oh my god, likes, and people are like, "Oh my god, I'm throwing away my anxiety." It's I'm throwing away my anxiety." It's I'm throwing away my anxiety." It's like, you can't throw away your anxiety. like, you can't throw away your anxiety. like, you can't throw away your anxiety. It It doesn't It doesn't work that way. It It doesn't It doesn't work that way. It It doesn't It doesn't work that way. The quick fix thing is an issue. Then we The quick fix thing is an issue. Then we The quick fix thing is an issue. Then we got to learn how to got to learn how to got to learn how to rethink our feelings. rethink our feelings. rethink our feelings. That's the programming we have to do. We That's the programming we have to do. We That's the programming we have to do. We have to learn some of the things that have to learn some of the things that have to learn some of the things that you've spoken about another podcast you've spoken about another podcast you've spoken about another podcast here, whether it's the cognitive here, whether it's the cognitive here, whether it's the cognitive reappraisal, whether it's the reframing, reappraisal, whether it's the reframing, reappraisal, whether it's the reframing, whether it's the distancing, whether it's the distancing, whether it's the distancing, whether it's you know, having gratitude whether it's you know, having gratitude whether it's you know, having gratitude as opposed to resentment and envy. I mean, I I never I mean, I I never had anyone help me practice had anyone help me practice had anyone help me practice cognitive regulation. Nobody ever taught cognitive regulation. Nobody ever taught cognitive regulation. Nobody ever taught me there was even a I never knew there me there was even a I never knew there me there was even a I never knew there was a thing called reframing. was a thing called reframing. was a thing called reframing. And it's saved my life as an adult, And it's saved my life as an adult, And it's saved my life as an adult, because again, we go in with the because again, we go in with the because again, we go in with the assumption about other people, too. assumption about other people, too. assumption about other people, too. And if you can say, "Wait a minute, And if you can say, "Wait a minute, And if you can say, "Wait a minute, Mark. Is there another way to look at Mark. Is there another way to look at Mark. Is there another way to look at this? Is there another story you can be this? Is there another story you can be this? Is there another story you can be telling yourself around this?" telling yourself around this?" telling yourself around this?" This goes back to something we talked This goes back to something we talked This goes back to something we talked about earlier. We want to be careful about earlier. We want to be careful about earlier. We want to be careful about that cuz in abusive relationships about that cuz in abusive relationships about that cuz in abusive relationships it can become gaslighting. it can become gaslighting. it can become gaslighting. Right? Honey, you know, you're too Right? Honey, you know, you're too Right? Honey, you know, you're too sensitive. sensitive. sensitive. No, you're a jerk. I'm not too No, you're a jerk. I'm not too No, you're a jerk. I'm not too sensitive. You're trying to make me feel sensitive. You're trying to make me feel sensitive. You're trying to make me feel like, you know, bad about the fact that like, you know, bad about the fact that like, you know, bad about the fact that you're lying to me all the time. Not you're lying to me all the time. Not you're lying to me all the time. Not helpful. helpful. helpful. And that can be that's also reframing, And that can be that's also reframing, And that can be that's also reframing, but it's a but it's a but it's a form of deception, form of deception, form of deception, you know, where you know, where you know, where another person is trying to define your another person is trying to define your another person is trying to define your reality for you. reality for you. reality for you. Super Super Super scary. And we can do that to ourselves, scary. And we can do that to ourselves, scary. And we can do that to ourselves, too. We can trick ourselves into too. We can trick ourselves into too. We can trick ourselves into believing things that way. believing things that way. believing things that way. Reframing Reframing Reframing is playing with this idea of telling is playing with this idea of telling is playing with this idea of telling yourself a new story, but you have to yourself a new story, but you have to yourself a new story, but you have to always be a scientist about it. And always be a scientist about it. And always be a scientist about it. And that's the one thing about all the that's the one thing about all the that's the one thing about all the strategies is that you have to come back strategies is that you have to come back strategies is that you have to come back as a scientist and ask yourself the as a scientist and ask yourself the as a scientist and ask yourself the question, question, question, is this helping me live the life I want? is this helping me live the life I want? is this helping me live the life I want? Am I in a better relationship? Am I Am I in a better relationship? Am I Am I in a better relationship? Am I better able at managing my anxiety better able at managing my anxiety better able at managing my anxiety applying these kind of strategies or applying these kind of strategies or applying these kind of strategies or these labeling strategies? these labeling strategies? these labeling strategies? I find psychology fascinating. Uh the I find psychology fascinating. Uh the I find psychology fascinating. Uh the reason I became a biologist, however, is reason I became a biologist, however, is reason I became a biologist, however, is because um because um because um I got confused by psychology. I got confused by psychology. I got confused by psychology. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. And It's too big of a field. Well, and And It's too big of a field. Well, and And It's too big of a field. Well, and the field wasn't as evolved as it is the field wasn't as evolved as it is the field wasn't as evolved as it is now, as structured as it is now. But I now, as structured as it is now. But I now, as structured as it is now. But I remember thinking, okay, remember thinking, okay, remember thinking, okay, you know, you know, you know, I could see the argument, maybe even the I could see the argument, maybe even the I could see the argument, maybe even the experiment for experiment for experiment for healthy expression of emotion allows healthy expression of emotion allows healthy expression of emotion allows that emotion to move through, allows us that emotion to move through, allows us that emotion to move through, allows us to be healthier physically and mentally. to be healthier physically and mentally. to be healthier physically and mentally. I can also probably find a manuscript I can also probably find a manuscript I can also probably find a manuscript that shows that the longer for every that shows that the longer for every that shows that the longer for every minute longer we focus on being angry minute longer we focus on being angry minute longer we focus on being angry that our anger grows, and I don't know that our anger grows, and I don't know that our anger grows, and I don't know what the answer is. I I what the answer is. I I what the answer is. I I um I sense it's that's probably not the um I sense it's that's probably not the um I sense it's that's probably not the case, but I just remember being very case, but I just remember being very case, but I just remember being very afraid of the contradictions. Absence afraid of the contradictions. Absence afraid of the contradictions. Absence makes the heart grow fine fonder. Out of makes the heart grow fine fonder. Out of makes the heart grow fine fonder. Out of sight, out of mind. It was like, which sight, out of mind. It was like, which sight, out of mind. It was like, which one is it? And of course it's both, one is it? And of course it's both, one is it? And of course it's both, right? I mean right? I mean right? I mean >> And that's the complexity of the human >> And that's the complexity of the human >> And that's the complexity of the human mind. So, I decided to think about cells mind. So, I decided to think about cells mind. So, I decided to think about cells and circuits instead. And and circuits instead. And and circuits instead. And um served me well in my career. I um served me well in my career. I um served me well in my career. I probably in my life I I remain probably in my life I I remain probably in my life I I remain intensely interested in the sorts of intensely interested in the sorts of intensely interested in the sorts of issues we're talking about. issues we're talking about. issues we're talking about. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Now, including these generational Now, including these generational Now, including these generational differences. And And here's my question. differences. And And here's my question. differences. And And here's my question. Typically, most work, school, and other Typically, most work, school, and other Typically, most work, school, and other environments are hierarchical in the environments are hierarchical in the environments are hierarchical in the sense that the older people have more sense that the older people have more sense that the older people have more seniority and more power. seniority and more power. seniority and more power. >> I sense that nowadays >> I sense that nowadays >> I sense that nowadays there's an understandable concern there's an understandable concern there's an understandable concern and interest in young people's emotions and interest in young people's emotions and interest in young people's emotions and emotional processing. and emotional processing. and emotional processing. But I also get the sense from my peers But I also get the sense from my peers But I also get the sense from my peers that there's this kind of fear of the that there's this kind of fear of the that there's this kind of fear of the younger generation, like they're younger generation, like they're younger generation, like they're actually in control. I just got through actually in control. I just got through actually in control. I just got through doing doing doing three 2-hour long trainings cuz Stanford three 2-hour long trainings cuz Stanford three 2-hour long trainings cuz Stanford understandably has you do like understandably has you do like understandably has you do like harassment training and workplace harassment training and workplace harassment training and workplace safety, workplace violence, you know, safety, workplace violence, you know, safety, workplace violence, you know, you have to learn what the rules are. you have to learn what the rules are. you have to learn what the rules are. >> And I was very surprised to realize that >> And I was very surprised to realize that >> And I was very surprised to realize that all faculty and staff and some postdocs all faculty and staff and some postdocs all faculty and staff and some postdocs take this training. Students don't take take this training. Students don't take take this training. Students don't take it. it. it. Meaning, you have two completely Meaning, you have two completely Meaning, you have two completely different views of what the rules are. different views of what the rules are. different views of what the rules are. And this is not unique to Stanford. This And this is not unique to Stanford. This And this is not unique to Stanford. This is unique to a lot of big organizations. is unique to a lot of big organizations. is unique to a lot of big organizations. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And um it's not even a criticism. I I'm And um it's not even a criticism. I I'm And um it's not even a criticism. I I'm sure like everything at Stanford there's sure like everything at Stanford there's sure like everything at Stanford there's a rationale. But it's kind of a rationale. But it's kind of a rationale. But it's kind of interesting. You would hope that there interesting. You would hope that there interesting. You would hope that there would be a universal at least would be a universal at least would be a universal at least nomenclature. nomenclature. nomenclature. Sure. Just like we know what Sure. Just like we know what Sure. Just like we know what mitochondria are here and in Nicaragua. mitochondria are here and in Nicaragua. mitochondria are here and in Nicaragua. It'd be nice to know that It'd be nice to know that It'd be nice to know that >> you know, anger and disappointment, >> you know, anger and disappointment, >> you know, anger and disappointment, while those words are spoken differently while those words are spoken differently while those words are spoken differently in two different countries, that there's in two different countries, that there's in two different countries, that there's sort of a a basic universal sort of a a basic universal sort of a a basic universal understanding of what emotions are, what understanding of what emotions are, what understanding of what emotions are, what they're not. they're not. they're not. How much comes from our past, how much How much comes from our past, how much How much comes from our past, how much is about our physiology, and kind of how is about our physiology, and kind of how is about our physiology, and kind of how to work with them. And I'm not saying to work with them. And I'm not saying to work with them. And I'm not saying this is going to solve all the problems this is going to solve all the problems this is going to solve all the problems in the world, but a lot of the problems in the world, but a lot of the problems in the world, but a lot of the problems that I see out there are that I see out there are that I see out there are misunderstandings about where the line misunderstandings about where the line misunderstandings about where the line is. is. is. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. That's No, that's healthy That's No, that's healthy That's No, that's healthy emotional expression. Okay, that's emotional expression. Okay, that's emotional expression. Okay, that's anger. No, that's passion. That person's anger. No, that's passion. That person's anger. No, that's passion. That person's a narcissist. No, that person just isn't a narcissist. No, that person just isn't a narcissist. No, that person just isn't spending a lot of time thinking about spending a lot of time thinking about spending a lot of time thinking about their own thoughts. their own thoughts. their own thoughts. And on and on and on. I'm certain that And on and on and on. I'm certain that And on and on and on. I'm certain that one of the reasons your work and your one of the reasons your work and your one of the reasons your work and your colleagues work is so important is colleagues work is so important is colleagues work is so important is because we need because we need because we need a universal nomenclature. We need a an a universal nomenclature. We need a an a universal nomenclature. We need a an agreement that there's at least a way to agreement that there's at least a way to agreement that there's at least a way to understand and navigate this stuff. This understand and navigate this stuff. This understand and navigate this stuff. This is why the work I do in schools it's not is why the work I do in schools it's not is why the work I do in schools it's not like a teacher comes to a training and like a teacher comes to a training and like a teacher comes to a training and does it in their classroom. It doesn't does it in their classroom. It doesn't does it in their classroom. It doesn't work that way. I learned this the hard work that way. I learned this the hard work that way. I learned this the hard way. It's got to be a systemic approach. way. It's got to be a systemic approach. way. It's got to be a systemic approach. The leaders, the teachers, the students, The leaders, the teachers, the students, The leaders, the teachers, the students, and the parents need all the same and the parents need all the same and the parents need all the same language to describe the work we do on language to describe the work we do on language to describe the work we do on emotional intelligence. It makes a huge emotional intelligence. It makes a huge emotional intelligence. It makes a huge difference. difference. difference. The superintendent can go into the The superintendent can go into the The superintendent can go into the kindergarten room and have that same kindergarten room and have that same kindergarten room and have that same conversation. We all know what these conversation. We all know what these conversation. We all know what these emotions mean and we're all thinking emotions mean and we're all thinking emotions mean and we're all thinking like scientists around emotions. I want like scientists around emotions. I want like scientists around emotions. I want to just go back though because something to just go back though because something to just go back though because something you said I think is important to you said I think is important to you said I think is important to address. address. address. And I wish I only wish And I wish I only wish And I wish I only wish that there was the correct answer to how that there was the correct answer to how that there was the correct answer to how we should feel and what we should do we should feel and what we should do we should feel and what we should do with our feelings. It just doesn't work with our feelings. It just doesn't work with our feelings. It just doesn't work that way. that way. that way. A funny story about this. So, I'm giving A funny story about this. So, I'm giving A funny story about this. So, I'm giving a speech to 1,500 police officers who I a speech to 1,500 police officers who I a speech to 1,500 police officers who I don't think were told in advance that don't think were told in advance that don't think were told in advance that some guy from Connecticut was going to some guy from Connecticut was going to some guy from Connecticut was going to be giving a speech for 3 and 1/2 hours be giving a speech for 3 and 1/2 hours be giving a speech for 3 and 1/2 hours about feelings. about feelings. about feelings. And so, I walk into the room. It was And so, I walk into the room. It was And so, I walk into the room. It was like out of a freaking movie. And like out of a freaking movie. And like out of a freaking movie. And all of a sudden it's like, "And we're all of a sudden it's like, "And we're all of a sudden it's like, "And we're welcoming Mark to talk about emotions." welcoming Mark to talk about emotions." welcoming Mark to talk about emotions." And all of a sudden you can And all of a sudden you can And all of a sudden you can >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> see these facial expressions. And like >> see these facial expressions. And like >> see these facial expressions. And like some of the I mean, these guys are some of the I mean, these guys are some of the I mean, these guys are sitting People who can't see me right sitting People who can't see me right sitting People who can't see me right now are like slouching in their seats. now are like slouching in their seats. now are like slouching in their seats. Like, you know, with their guns in their Like, you know, with their guns in their Like, you know, with their guns in their pockets. I'm thinking to myself, "What pockets. I'm thinking to myself, "What pockets. I'm thinking to myself, "What have I gotten myself into?" have I gotten myself into?" have I gotten myself into?" And so, I start, you know, playing And so, I start, you know, playing And so, I start, you know, playing around. I'm telling them jokes. I've got around. I'm telling them jokes. I've got around. I'm telling them jokes. I've got to figure out how to meet these this to figure out how to meet these this to figure out how to meet these this group. And group. And group. And the thing that struck me that I haven't the thing that struck me that I haven't the thing that struck me that I haven't forgotten was one guy just stood up. forgotten was one guy just stood up. forgotten was one guy just stood up. And he's like, And he's like, And he's like, "I'm not sure I'm interested in this." "I'm not sure I'm interested in this." "I'm not sure I'm interested in this." I said, "Okay." He said, "But I am I do I said, "Okay." He said, "But I am I do I said, "Okay." He said, "But I am I do want to know one thing, Doc. want to know one thing, Doc. want to know one thing, Doc. What's the only strategy that works?" What's the only strategy that works?" What's the only strategy that works?" And I said, and of course, I'm a And I said, and of course, I'm a And I said, and of course, I'm a psychologist, like, it doesn't work that psychologist, like, it doesn't work that psychologist, like, it doesn't work that way. There's many strategies. It's an way. There's many strategies. It's an way. There's many strategies. It's an emotion by person by context phenomenon. emotion by person by context phenomenon. emotion by person by context phenomenon. And I people are so desperate for the And I people are so desperate for the And I people are so desperate for the right answer. right answer. right answer. I think the beauty of it I think the beauty of it I think the beauty of it is that it's messy. is that it's messy. is that it's messy. The beauty of it is that it's a journey. The beauty of it is that it's a journey. The beauty of it is that it's a journey. The beauty of it is that it's a process. The beauty of it is that it's a process. The beauty of it is that it's a process. The beauty of it is that we have to ask The beauty of it is that we have to ask The beauty of it is that we have to ask ourselves questions over the course of ourselves questions over the course of ourselves questions over the course of our development, is how I'm living my our development, is how I'm living my our development, is how I'm living my life working for me or against me to life working for me or against me to life working for me or against me to achieve my goals. achieve my goals. achieve my goals. And we have to check in with other And we have to check in with other And we have to check in with other people, like our partners and our people, like our partners and our people, like our partners and our friends and our kids and whoever else friends and our kids and whoever else friends and our kids and whoever else and our colleagues. and our colleagues. and our colleagues. And And And I hate to say that, but I hate to say that, but I hate to say that, but the people who, you know, are dying for the people who, you know, are dying for the people who, you know, are dying for the correct strategy, there is no the correct strategy, there is no the correct strategy, there is no correct strategy. correct strategy. correct strategy. Every you know, I worked as a fitness Every you know, I worked as a fitness Every you know, I worked as a fitness instructor for 10 years of my life while instructor for 10 years of my life while instructor for 10 years of my life while I taught martial arts. I saw so many I taught martial arts. I saw so many I taught martial arts. I saw so many people use exercise as a way to escape people use exercise as a way to escape people use exercise as a way to escape their reality. their reality. their reality. They just wanted the treadmill for 10 They just wanted the treadmill for 10 They just wanted the treadmill for 10 hours a day hours a day hours a day with an eating disorder who were with an eating disorder who were with an eating disorder who were thinking, "This is, you know, my healthy thinking, "This is, you know, my healthy thinking, "This is, you know, my healthy strategy." and they were ruining their strategy." and they were ruining their strategy." and they were ruining their lives. lives. lives. Same thing with food, the same thing Same thing with food, the same thing Same thing with food, the same thing with you can trick yourself into with you can trick yourself into with you can trick yourself into believing things. believing things. believing things. The goal of this work is to help people The goal of this work is to help people The goal of this work is to help people pause, pause, pause, consider ideas, and then you have to go consider ideas, and then you have to go consider ideas, and then you have to go back and say, back and say, back and say, "How is my life? "How is my life? "How is my life? How are my relationships? How's my work How are my relationships? How's my work How are my relationships? How's my work going?" going?" going?" etc. And that's where the etc. And that's where the etc. And that's where the the real beauty comes out of the the real beauty comes out of the the real beauty comes out of the learning. learning. learning. I'm using my I'm using my I'm using my checking back into my uh developmental checking back into my uh developmental checking back into my uh developmental biases as a way to uh biases as a way to uh biases as a way to uh ask questions that I hope are relevant ask questions that I hope are relevant ask questions that I hope are relevant to everyone and now especially. And one to everyone and now especially. And one to everyone and now especially. And one of the things that I've observed is that of the things that I've observed is that of the things that I've observed is that there seems to be a broadening of the there seems to be a broadening of the there seems to be a broadening of the context in which context in which context in which broader ranges of emotions are allowed. broader ranges of emotions are allowed. broader ranges of emotions are allowed. Online is a really good example of all Online is a really good example of all Online is a really good example of all of it. of it. of it. All of it, right? And I think that the All of it, right? And I think that the All of it, right? And I think that the the judgments about, well, this person the judgments about, well, this person the judgments about, well, this person is is is losing their cool, and then someone say, losing their cool, and then someone say, losing their cool, and then someone say, well, you know, so-and-so stepped in well, you know, so-and-so stepped in well, you know, so-and-so stepped in front of his motorcycle, for instance. front of his motorcycle, for instance. front of his motorcycle, for instance. You know, maybe these are the debates You know, maybe these are the debates You know, maybe these are the debates that reflect all these develop- mental that reflect all these develop- mental that reflect all these develop- mental biases. And in some cases there's a biases. And in some cases there's a biases. And in some cases there's a legal line. And those legal channels, by legal line. And those legal channels, by legal line. And those legal channels, by the way, are very interesting. Um the way, are very interesting. Um the way, are very interesting. Um there's a great channel. there's a great channel. there's a great channel. Um Um Um It's a little too Hollywood in cuz the It's a little too Hollywood in cuz the It's a little too Hollywood in cuz the guy worked in Hollywood, but he's a guy worked in Hollywood, but he's a guy worked in Hollywood, but he's a lawyer, and it's called The Legal Beef. lawyer, and it's called The Legal Beef. lawyer, and it's called The Legal Beef. I don't know him, but he does these I don't know him, but he does these I don't know him, but he does these everyday cases of like if someone says everyday cases of like if someone says everyday cases of like if someone says like, "It's illegal to film here. You like, "It's illegal to film here. You like, "It's illegal to film here. You can't touch my camera." Or, you know, can't touch my camera." Or, you know, can't touch my camera." Or, you know, and then he goes, "Well, that's the and then he goes, "Well, that's the and then he goes, "Well, that's the legal beef." Tells you, and he gives you legal beef." Tells you, and he gives you legal beef." Tells you, and he gives you exactly what the law says. exactly what the law says. exactly what the law says. And so, I think we tend to like that. I And so, I think we tend to like that. I And so, I think we tend to like that. I certainly like that. Like where I like certainly like that. Like where I like certainly like that. Like where I like thick black lines, clear operational thick black lines, clear operational thick black lines, clear operational definitions. definitions. definitions. But But But it is true that, for instance, it is true that, for instance, it is true that, for instance, growing up, I I wasn't of the mind that, growing up, I I wasn't of the mind that, growing up, I I wasn't of the mind that, you know, it's not okay to cry. I just you know, it's not okay to cry. I just you know, it's not okay to cry. I just but was definitely certain places, but was definitely certain places, but was definitely certain places, certain times. certain times. certain times. >> Yeah. It does seem like the workplace >> Yeah. It does seem like the workplace >> Yeah. It does seem like the workplace and school and online, it's become and school and online, it's become and school and online, it's become either more accepted or it just happens either more accepted or it just happens either more accepted or it just happens that people are bringing more of their that people are bringing more of their that people are bringing more of their own stuff. own stuff. own stuff. And I think one thing I worry about, I'm And I think one thing I worry about, I'm And I think one thing I worry about, I'm showing my age here, but the one thing showing my age here, but the one thing showing my age here, but the one thing that I worry about as people that I worry about as people that I worry about as people think about their emotions without think about their emotions without think about their emotions without having really good strategies to work having really good strategies to work having really good strategies to work with them with them with them is that they lose the ability to be is that they lose the ability to be is that they lose the ability to be effective. I agree. Because time is effective. I agree. Because time is effective. I agree. Because time is running. running. running. And I hear from a fair number of friends And I hear from a fair number of friends And I hear from a fair number of friends whose kid is struggling because whose kid is struggling because whose kid is struggling because they're dealing with depression, or they're dealing with depression, or they're dealing with depression, or they're dealing with anxiety, or they they're dealing with anxiety, or they they're dealing with anxiety, or they have a cannabis use disorder, or they're have a cannabis use disorder, or they're have a cannabis use disorder, or they're Time's ticking. Time's ticking. Time's ticking. And developmental milestones are real. And developmental milestones are real. And developmental milestones are real. And so the question I have is And so the question I have is And so the question I have is how should how should how should people think about evolving their own people think about evolving their own people think about evolving their own ability to work with their emotions cuz ability to work with their emotions cuz ability to work with their emotions cuz you said it's a process, it's a dance, you said it's a process, it's a dance, you said it's a process, it's a dance, it's a takes time with the need to it's a takes time with the need to it's a takes time with the need to really show up and get things done in really show up and get things done in really show up and get things done in life. life. life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz you and I are two people who are >> Cuz you and I are two people who are >> Cuz you and I are two people who are degreed and have steady jobs and and degreed and have steady jobs and and degreed and have steady jobs and and it's it's it's we have space to think about this stuff. we have space to think about this stuff. we have space to think about this stuff. >> Well, we do. And I always tell people >> Well, we do. And I always tell people >> Well, we do. And I always tell people that like for example, there's a school, that like for example, there's a school, that like for example, there's a school, I won't mention its name cuz this is not I won't mention its name cuz this is not I won't mention its name cuz this is not a good story. a good story. a good story. Uh post the election, this past Uh post the election, this past Uh post the election, this past election, wrote a note to every student election, wrote a note to every student election, wrote a note to every student and said, "We recognize that some of you and said, "We recognize that some of you and said, "We recognize that some of you may be feeling overwhelmed by your may be feeling overwhelmed by your may be feeling overwhelmed by your feelings and if you need to take the day feelings and if you need to take the day feelings and if you need to take the day off, off, off, it's okay." it's okay." it's okay." I almost had a conniption about that. I I almost had a conniption about that. I I almost had a conniption about that. I was the that's my father speaking, was the that's my father speaking, was the that's my father speaking, conniption. But I was like conniption. But I was like conniption. But I was like I cannot believe this is happening. They I cannot believe this is happening. They I cannot believe this is happening. They weren't what it was school that I work weren't what it was school that I work weren't what it was school that I work with. I wanted to call on the head of with. I wanted to call on the head of with. I wanted to call on the head of that school and say like this is the that school and say like this is the that school and say like this is the worst advice you can give people. People worst advice you can give people. People worst advice you can give people. People have to learn how to live with difficult have to learn how to live with difficult have to learn how to live with difficult feelings. And if we're going to give feelings. And if we're going to give feelings. And if we're going to give excuses to people excuses to people excuses to people to like, you know, they can just like to like, you know, they can just like to like, you know, they can just like I'm just overwhelmed by what's happened I'm just overwhelmed by what's happened I'm just overwhelmed by what's happened and not get to process it and manage it and not get to process it and manage it and not get to process it and manage it and move forward in their life, and move forward in their life, and move forward in their life, we're going to create a generation of we're going to create a generation of we're going to create a generation of very weak people. So I couldn't agree very weak people. So I couldn't agree very weak people. So I couldn't agree more. And that's not what this work is more. And that's not what this work is more. And that's not what this work is about. Like that's the confusion. It's about. Like that's the confusion. It's about. Like that's the confusion. It's been politicized in many ways sometimes been politicized in many ways sometimes been politicized in many ways sometimes and there's groups of people now that and there's groups of people now that and there's groups of people now that say this is you're making kids fragile say this is you're making kids fragile say this is you're making kids fragile by having them talk about their by having them talk about their by having them talk about their feelings. And I say it's called feelings. And I say it's called feelings. And I say it's called emotional intelligence, emotion emotional intelligence, emotion emotional intelligence, emotion regulation. regulation. regulation. We're not letting them We're not letting them We're not letting them like sit in their feelings all day long. like sit in their feelings all day long. like sit in their feelings all day long. We want them to recognize is that We want them to recognize is that We want them to recognize is that feeling helping or hurting them achieve feeling helping or hurting them achieve feeling helping or hurting them achieve their goals. If it's getting in the way, their goals. If it's getting in the way, their goals. If it's getting in the way, you need to strategize. you need to strategize. you need to strategize. And the goal is to move forward, not to And the goal is to move forward, not to And the goal is to move forward, not to be stuck in. I think that's a huge huge be stuck in. I think that's a huge huge be stuck in. I think that's a huge huge issue right now. And the same thing with issue right now. And the same thing with issue right now. And the same thing with discomfort. Like it's okay to be uncom- discomfort. Like it's okay to be uncom- discomfort. Like it's okay to be uncom- I mean I mean I mean my whole career is built upon being my whole career is built upon being my whole career is built upon being uncomfortable. People saying, "I don't uncomfortable. People saying, "I don't uncomfortable. People saying, "I don't like your work. Your Your program's like your work. Your Your program's like your work. Your Your program's going to turn kids into homosexuals. I going to turn kids into homosexuals. I going to turn kids into homosexuals. I don't want to talk about feelings, you don't want to talk about feelings, you don't want to talk about feelings, you know. You're this know. You're this know. You're this >> psychologist, but you recreate your >> psychologist, but you recreate your >> psychologist, but you recreate your childhood with the public. Yeah. There childhood with the public. Yeah. There childhood with the public. Yeah. There you go. you go. you go. Sublimated. Sublimated. Sublimated. Um but, you know, I love that feeling. Um but, you know, I love that feeling. Um but, you know, I love that feeling. That discomfort. I sit with it. I don't That discomfort. I sit with it. I don't That discomfort. I sit with it. I don't try to push it away. And I think, Mark, try to push it away. And I think, Mark, try to push it away. And I think, Mark, what's your creative solution? what's your creative solution? what's your creative solution? That to me is like the beauty of the That to me is like the beauty of the That to me is like the beauty of the work. I don't get it If I were work. I don't get it If I were work. I don't get it If I were If I just got paralyzed, If I just got paralyzed, If I just got paralyzed, you know, by that, I would Where would I you know, by that, I would Where would I you know, by that, I would Where would I go in life? I would be frozen. We don't go in life? I would be frozen. We don't go in life? I would be frozen. We don't want kids to be frozen. We don't want want kids to be frozen. We don't want want kids to be frozen. We don't want anyone to be frozen. We want people to anyone to be frozen. We want people to anyone to be frozen. We want people to be able to be able to be able to live their lives, experience the full live their lives, experience the full live their lives, experience the full range of emotions, regulate effectively, range of emotions, regulate effectively, range of emotions, regulate effectively, and achieve their goals. and achieve their goals. and achieve their goals. I'm no psychologist. I've said that four I'm no psychologist. I've said that four I'm no psychologist. I've said that four times. Uh but, I have the strong feeling times. Uh but, I have the strong feeling times. Uh but, I have the strong feeling that your martial arts training prepared that your martial arts training prepared that your martial arts training prepared you to be public-facing, cuz it is a you to be public-facing, cuz it is a you to be public-facing, cuz it is a relationship, right? And I'd like to relationship, right? And I'd like to relationship, right? And I'd like to talk a little bit about that talk a little bit about that talk a little bit about that relationship specifically, because relationship specifically, because relationship specifically, because you've been this amazing ambassador for you've been this amazing ambassador for you've been this amazing ambassador for emotions, what they are, how to work emotions, what they are, how to work emotions, what they are, how to work with them in a healthy way, and to also with them in a healthy way, and to also with them in a healthy way, and to also still show up in life, to not still show up in life, to not still show up in life, to not necessarily take the day off, right? I necessarily take the day off, right? I necessarily take the day off, right? I mean, if you lose a mean, if you lose a mean, if you lose a close family member, it makes We would close family member, it makes We would close family member, it makes We would all say like, of course, stay home, take all say like, of course, stay home, take all say like, of course, stay home, take a day, take what you need, right? But a day, take what you need, right? But a day, take what you need, right? But eventually come back. You know, that's eventually come back. You know, that's eventually come back. You know, that's an important piece, too. It's an an important piece, too. It's an an important piece, too. It's an important piece, too, to not um as one important piece, too, to not um as one important piece, too, to not um as one scientist I used to work with say, you scientist I used to work with say, you scientist I used to work with say, you know, dissolve into a puddle. He used to know, dissolve into a puddle. He used to know, dissolve into a puddle. He used to say when someone's paper came back, he say when someone's paper came back, he say when someone's paper came back, he said, "And if it gets said, "And if it gets said, "And if it gets Before you look, if it gets rejected, Before you look, if it gets rejected, Before you look, if it gets rejected, don't dissolve into a puddle of your own don't dissolve into a puddle of your own don't dissolve into a puddle of your own tears." It was that kind of old-school tears." It was that kind of old-school tears." It was that kind of old-school harsh thing, but I think it came from a harsh thing, but I think it came from a harsh thing, but I think it came from a place of care, cuz you're like, "Listen, place of care, cuz you're like, "Listen, place of care, cuz you're like, "Listen, it's not the end of the world." And it's not the end of the world." And it's not the end of the world." And there have been graduate students who there have been graduate students who there have been graduate students who have killed themselves on the basis of have killed themselves on the basis of have killed themselves on the basis of their PhD not going well. I I know their PhD not going well. I I know their PhD not going well. I I know stories about this, sadly. You stories about this, sadly. You stories about this, sadly. You have taken some heat have taken some heat have taken some heat for both being a champion of this for both being a champion of this for both being a champion of this process, process, process, but also by not giving in to this idea but also by not giving in to this idea but also by not giving in to this idea that we're all just supposed to take the that we're all just supposed to take the that we're all just supposed to take the decade off. decade off. decade off. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um and so you get it from both sides. Um and so you get it from both sides. Um and so you get it from both sides. You're in a unique position. Um and I You're in a unique position. Um and I You're in a unique position. Um and I feel for you because some people will feel for you because some people will feel for you because some people will say, "Hey, listen, you're teaching say, "Hey, listen, you're teaching say, "Hey, listen, you're teaching people to be soft and clearly that's not people to be soft and clearly that's not people to be soft and clearly that's not what you're what you're what you're um advocating for. um advocating for. um advocating for. And And And people have also said, "Hey, you're people have also said, "Hey, you're people have also said, "Hey, you're pushing us to pushing us to pushing us to like push our feelings away and there's like push our feelings away and there's like push our feelings away and there's a lot that we're really angry about in a lot that we're really angry about in a lot that we're really angry about in the world and how can you be talking the world and how can you be talking the world and how can you be talking about this when about this when about this when fascism is taking over, there's a war, fascism is taking over, there's a war, fascism is taking over, there's a war, this and you know, and and on and on and this and you know, and and on and on and this and you know, and and on and on and on and on and on and on. So, how have on and on and on and on. So, how have on and on and on and on. So, how have you, just personally, if you're willing, you, just personally, if you're willing, you, just personally, if you're willing, how have how has that landed and how how have how has that landed and how how have how has that landed and how have you decided to respond to that? have you decided to respond to that? have you decided to respond to that? I love challenge. And so, you know, I I love challenge. And so, you know, I I love challenge. And so, you know, I wrote this piece for Time magazine. It wrote this piece for Time magazine. It wrote this piece for Time magazine. It was and of course, you probably know was and of course, you probably know was and of course, you probably know this, but when you're writing an op-ed, this, but when you're writing an op-ed, this, but when you're writing an op-ed, the publisher decides on the title. And the publisher decides on the title. And the publisher decides on the title. And they like to be provocative, so they they like to be provocative, so they they like to be provocative, so they called it the overreaction epidemic and called it the overreaction epidemic and called it the overreaction epidemic and I got slammed for it. I got slammed for it. I got slammed for it. You know, we're overreacting, we're not You know, we're overreacting, we're not You know, we're overreacting, we're not overreacting, the world's coming to an overreacting, the world's coming to an overreacting, the world's coming to an end. And it does feel like for many of end. And it does feel like for many of end. And it does feel like for many of us, you know, between wars and us, you know, between wars and us, you know, between wars and everything else happening, political everything else happening, political everything else happening, political polarization, polarization, polarization, you know, it does feel that way for many you know, it does feel that way for many you know, it does feel that way for many on both sides. on both sides. on both sides. And I say, And I say, And I say, "Yes, "Yes, "Yes, but but but running around yelling and screaming at running around yelling and screaming at running around yelling and screaming at people, how is that helpful? Like where people, how is that helpful? Like where people, how is that helpful? Like where is the benefit to you and to the other is the benefit to you and to the other is the benefit to you and to the other person person person to move forward?" to move forward?" to move forward?" And so, to me it just makes me think And so, to me it just makes me think And so, to me it just makes me think more creatively about the work I do. more creatively about the work I do. more creatively about the work I do. And the other side, you know, where And the other side, you know, where And the other side, you know, where people have said that I'm now making people have said that I'm now making people have said that I'm now making people fragile people fragile people fragile because I'm getting kids and boys to because I'm getting kids and boys to because I'm getting kids and boys to talk about their feelings and it's going talk about their feelings and it's going talk about their feelings and it's going to make them more fragile. to make them more fragile. to make them more fragile. Um as a matter of fact, I saw somebody Um as a matter of fact, I saw somebody Um as a matter of fact, I saw somebody said recently that this work said recently that this work said recently that this work >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> causes kids >> causes kids >> causes kids to have mental illness. to have mental illness. to have mental illness. And I was like, "Wow, that's a good one. And I was like, "Wow, that's a good one. And I was like, "Wow, that's a good one. And And And again, this stems from misunderstanding again, this stems from misunderstanding again, this stems from misunderstanding of the concepts. A, of the concepts. A, of the concepts. A, I'm a big stickler, like you said, I'm a big stickler, like you said, I'm a big stickler, like you said, operational [snorts] definitions. I want operational [snorts] definitions. I want operational [snorts] definitions. I want to be super clear about what I'm to be super clear about what I'm to be super clear about what I'm teaching. teaching. teaching. I'm not teaching I'm not teaching I'm not teaching la la la la. I'm teaching you how to be la la la la. I'm teaching you how to be la la la la. I'm teaching you how to be emotionally self-aware. emotionally self-aware. emotionally self-aware. Would you agree that it matters to be Would you agree that it matters to be Would you agree that it matters to be clear clear clear about what you're feeling? Yes. Thank about what you're feeling? Yes. Thank about what you're feeling? Yes. Thank you. you. you. Okay. So, when you're clear about how Okay. So, when you're clear about how Okay. So, when you're clear about how you're feeling, and if that feeling is you're feeling, and if that feeling is you're feeling, and if that feeling is disrupting you from being a good student disrupting you from being a good student disrupting you from being a good student or being a good partner or being a good or being a good partner or being a good or being a good partner or being a good manager leader, do you think that you manager leader, do you think that you manager leader, do you think that you should use techniques to help you figure should use techniques to help you figure should use techniques to help you figure out how to out how to out how to manage it? Yes, absolutely. Perfect. manage it? Yes, absolutely. Perfect. manage it? Yes, absolutely. Perfect. That's what we teach. That's what we teach. That's what we teach. It's really clear. It's really clear. It's really clear. When you have conceptual clarity, When you have conceptual clarity, When you have conceptual clarity, I think there's less confusion. I think there's less confusion. I think there's less confusion. What happens that people it's gotten What happens that people it's gotten What happens that people it's gotten politicized, politicized, politicized, you know, it's confusing around going you know, it's confusing around going you know, it's confusing around going back to what we spoke about earlier that back to what we spoke about earlier that back to what we spoke about earlier that this is obsessive checking in, this is this is obsessive checking in, this is this is obsessive checking in, this is prying into kids' personal lives. Here's prying into kids' personal lives. Here's prying into kids' personal lives. Here's the deal. A kid comes to school A kid comes to school with feelings. with feelings. with feelings. We all have feelings from the moment We all have feelings from the moment We all have feelings from the moment we wake up in the morning to the time we we wake up in the morning to the time we we wake up in the morning to the time we go to bed at night, even when we sleep. go to bed at night, even when we sleep. go to bed at night, even when we sleep. Have you ever been irritable in the Have you ever been irritable in the Have you ever been irritable in the morning? morning? morning? Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. >> And have you ever noticed that we call >> And have you ever noticed that we call >> And have you ever noticed that we call it incidental leakage. It's not a great it incidental leakage. It's not a great it incidental leakage. It's not a great term. But like you're irritable, you term. But like you're irritable, you term. But like you're irritable, you really haven't processed it and you get really haven't processed it and you get really haven't processed it and you get maybe to the studio here and then maybe maybe to the studio here and then maybe maybe to the studio here and then maybe people are trying to interact with you people are trying to interact with you people are trying to interact with you but and you're not like the best version but and you're not like the best version but and you're not like the best version of you. of you. of you. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's That's That's what happens. And so that happens to a what happens. And so that happens to a what happens. And so that happens to a kid who's gotten bullied on the bus or kid who's gotten bullied on the bus or kid who's gotten bullied on the bus or had a fight at home and you want that had a fight at home and you want that had a fight at home and you want that kid, like every parent does, I want my kid, like every parent does, I want my kid, like every parent does, I want my kid to be a good learner, kid to be a good learner, kid to be a good learner, you know, have good friends, etc. All you know, have good friends, etc. All you know, have good friends, etc. All right. So, now I'm teaching you a right. So, now I'm teaching you a right. So, now I'm teaching you a process, process, process, Andrew, that before you walk into the Andrew, that before you walk into the Andrew, that before you walk into the studio, I want you to take 30 seconds, studio, I want you to take 30 seconds, studio, I want you to take 30 seconds, maybe 20 if you get good at it, to just maybe 20 if you get good at it, to just maybe 20 if you get good at it, to just check in. Take a breath. How you check in. Take a breath. How you check in. Take a breath. How you feeling? Gosh, I'm pissed off at that feeling? Gosh, I'm pissed off at that feeling? Gosh, I'm pissed off at that phone call I had or I'm annoyed at this. phone call I had or I'm annoyed at this. phone call I had or I'm annoyed at this. Okay. How do you want to be seen and Okay. How do you want to be seen and Okay. How do you want to be seen and talked about and experienced in that talked about and experienced in that talked about and experienced in that studio today? studio today? studio today? Oh, wow. But Oh, wow. But Oh, wow. But it's a whole Did you see how like I even it's a whole Did you see how like I even it's a whole Did you see how like I even saying that like it makes you like saying that like it makes you like saying that like it makes you like stand still and like reflect? Well, stand still and like reflect? Well, stand still and like reflect? Well, I want to be I want to be I want to be this cool this cool this cool dude who's, you know, dude who's, you know, dude who's, you know, compassionate and um creative. Okay. compassionate and um creative. Okay. compassionate and um creative. Okay. Well, what do you need to get there? Well, what do you need to get there? Well, what do you need to get there? And then you walk in. And then you walk in. And then you walk in. And all of a sudden, you have attributed And all of a sudden, you have attributed And all of a sudden, you have attributed the emotion to its actual cause, which the emotion to its actual cause, which the emotion to its actual cause, which is that stupid phone call or whatever is that stupid phone call or whatever is that stupid phone call or whatever happened, and you're no longer going to happened, and you're no longer going to happened, and you're no longer going to displace that or project it or take it displace that or project it or take it displace that or project it or take it out on somebody else. out on somebody else. out on somebody else. Do you think that would be a useful Do you think that would be a useful Do you think that would be a useful process for process for process for kids, couples, leaders to use? kids, couples, leaders to use? kids, couples, leaders to use? Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. How long does it take? Seconds. There How long does it take? Seconds. There How long does it take? Seconds. There you go. you go. you go. This is not obsession with feeling. This This is not obsession with feeling. This This is not obsession with feeling. This is not You know, this is at at opportune is not You know, this is at at opportune is not You know, this is at at opportune moments. moments. moments. You know, when I come home from work, You know, when I come home from work, You know, when I come home from work, I'm I work long hours and I'm tired and I'm I work long hours and I'm tired and I'm I work long hours and I'm tired and I'm irritable a lot of the time. I just I'm irritable a lot of the time. I just I'm irritable a lot of the time. I just am. am. am. I got to switch my mindset I got to switch my mindset I got to switch my mindset to be the best version of myself as a to be the best version of myself as a to be the best version of myself as a husband. husband. husband. So, So, So, that's what we're trying to help people that's what we're trying to help people that's what we're trying to help people do. do. do. And And And I don't want people to be confused by I don't want people to be confused by I don't want people to be confused by that. I want people to be super I want that. I want people to be super I want that. I want people to be super I want real clarity. real clarity. real clarity. It's articulating what your experience It's articulating what your experience It's articulating what your experience is, is, is, recognizing that it may be helpful. If recognizing that it may be helpful. If recognizing that it may be helpful. If it's helpful, it's helpful, it's helpful, you got nothing to do. Congratulations. you got nothing to do. Congratulations. you got nothing to do. Congratulations. If it's not going to be helpful, you If it's not going to be helpful, you If it's not going to be helpful, you need to think about those strategies. Is need to think about those strategies. Is need to think about those strategies. Is it labeling it? Maybe. it labeling it? Maybe. it labeling it? Maybe. Is it taking the breath? Maybe. There Is it taking the breath? Maybe. There Is it taking the breath? Maybe. There have been times I've taken 15 deep have been times I've taken 15 deep have been times I've taken 15 deep breaths and I'm still irritable. I need breaths and I'm still irritable. I need breaths and I'm still irritable. I need a new strategy. I need to call a good a new strategy. I need to call a good a new strategy. I need to call a good friend. I need to say, "Hey Doug, can friend. I need to say, "Hey Doug, can friend. I need to say, "Hey Doug, can you like I'm really struggling with this you like I'm really struggling with this you like I'm really struggling with this right now. Do you have some thoughts? right now. Do you have some thoughts? right now. Do you have some thoughts? Not a problem. Getting social support is Not a problem. Getting social support is Not a problem. Getting social support is not weak. It's smart. not weak. It's smart. not weak. It's smart. Maybe I need to take another walk around Maybe I need to take another walk around Maybe I need to take another walk around the block to just decompress. Maybe I the block to just decompress. Maybe I the block to just decompress. Maybe I got a really shitty night's sleep and I got a really shitty night's sleep and I got a really shitty night's sleep and I just need to recognize that I'm never just need to recognize that I'm never just need to recognize that I'm never going to be the best version of myself, going to be the best version of myself, going to be the best version of myself, no matter how hard I try, cuz I haven't no matter how hard I try, cuz I haven't no matter how hard I try, cuz I haven't replenished, you know, the resources of replenished, you know, the resources of replenished, you know, the resources of my brain to be the best version of my brain to be the best version of my brain to be the best version of myself. myself. myself. It's an unfortunate reality, but tap It's an unfortunate reality, but tap It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that water often contains contaminants that water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. In fact, a negatively impact our health. In fact, a negatively impact our health. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working 2020 study by the Environmental Working 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 Group estimated that more than 200 Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS million Americans are exposed to PFAS million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap chemicals, through drinking of tap chemicals, through drinking of tap water. These forever chemicals are water. These forever chemicals are water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as linked to serious health issues, such as linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome hormone disruption, gut microbiome hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many disruption, fertility issues, and many disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. other health problems. other health problems. The Environmental Working Group has also The Environmental Working Group has also The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans shown that over 122 million Americans shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of drink tap water with high levels of drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's chemicals known to cause cancer. It's chemicals known to cause cancer. It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled for all these reasons that I'm thrilled for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Aura as a sponsor of this to have Aura as a sponsor of this to have Aura as a sponsor of this podcast. I've been using the Aura podcast. I've been using the Aura podcast. I've been using the Aura countertop system for almost a year now. countertop system for almost a year now. countertop system for almost a year now. Aura's filtration technology removes Aura's filtration technology removes Aura's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine harmful substances, including endocrine harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, disruptors and disinfection byproducts, disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals while preserving beneficial minerals while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires like magnesium and calcium. It requires like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing. It's built no installation or plumbing. It's built no installation or plumbing. It's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and from medical-grade stainless steel, and from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on its sleek design fits beautifully on its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop. In fact, I consider it your countertop. In fact, I consider it your countertop. In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen. It a welcome addition to my kitchen. It a welcome addition to my kitchen. It looks great, and the water is delicious. looks great, and the water is delicious. looks great, and the water is delicious. If you'd like to try Aura, you can go to If you'd like to try Aura, you can go to If you'd like to try Aura, you can go to auraring.com/huberman auraring.com/huberman auraring.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, and get an exclusive discount. Again, and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's auraring.com/huberman. I love it, and I've two reflections I'd I love it, and I've two reflections I'd love your reflections on. The first one love your reflections on. The first one love your reflections on. The first one is positive states and emotions that are is positive states and emotions that are is positive states and emotions that are also dangerous. When people are feeling also dangerous. When people are feeling also dangerous. When people are feeling over-affiliative, over-comfortable, they over-affiliative, over-comfortable, they over-affiliative, over-comfortable, they sometimes say things that get them into sometimes say things that get them into sometimes say things that get them into real trouble. They either disclose real trouble. They either disclose real trouble. They either disclose things or they things or they things or they make jokes that later they pay the the make jokes that later they pay the the make jokes that later they pay the the price for. price for. price for. This is I think maybe not as common as This is I think maybe not as common as This is I think maybe not as common as anger and sadness and anxiety, but given anger and sadness and anxiety, but given anger and sadness and anxiety, but given that some very prominent uh that some very prominent uh that some very prominent uh very very smart people I've seen very very smart people I've seen very very smart people I've seen completely destroy their careers by completely destroy their careers by completely destroy their careers by it used to be called tweeting. You go, it used to be called tweeting. You go, it used to be called tweeting. You go, "What this is crazy. This person "What this is crazy. This person "What this is crazy. This person actually a chair of psychiatry, I'm not actually a chair of psychiatry, I'm not actually a chair of psychiatry, I'm not going to beat around the bush here was going to beat around the bush here was going to beat around the bush here was fired for saying something that was fired for saying something that was fired for saying something that was totally it was actually inappropriate totally it was actually inappropriate totally it was actually inappropriate and lame and stupid. You just go, "But and lame and stupid. You just go, "But and lame and stupid. You just go, "But this person is clearly intelligent. this person is clearly intelligent. this person is clearly intelligent. They're the chair of a of a Ivy League They're the chair of a of a Ivy League They're the chair of a of a Ivy League school in psychiatry. school in psychiatry. school in psychiatry. And you say, "Well, what happened?" And And you say, "Well, what happened?" And And you say, "Well, what happened?" And what was interesting to me were the what was interesting to me were the what was interesting to me were the tweets leading up to it. tweets leading up to it. tweets leading up to it. You could say he was You could say he was You could say he was showing his true self, but there was showing his true self, but there was showing his true self, but there was this sort of like ease and comfort this sort of like ease and comfort this sort of like ease and comfort around joking. And there's certain jokes around joking. And there's certain jokes around joking. And there's certain jokes you just don't make. And so I think what you just don't make. And so I think what you just don't make. And so I think what you're describing is equally important you're describing is equally important you're describing is equally important for not overstepping, not um for not overstepping, not um for not overstepping, not um you know you know you know hurting oneself or other people. hurting oneself or other people. hurting oneself or other people. Activation is activation. So Activation is activation. So Activation is activation. So your heart rate and your you know your heart rate and your you know your heart rate and your you know different chemicals get released when different chemicals get released when different chemicals get released when you're super excited and when you're you're super excited and when you're you're super excited and when you're anxious. anxious. anxious. Activation might be the same. Activation might be the same. Activation might be the same. The psychology of it is different. The psychology of it is different. The psychology of it is different. Right, one is like anticipation of like Right, one is like anticipation of like Right, one is like anticipation of like positive things, one is anticipation of positive things, one is anticipation of positive things, one is anticipation of you know the negative things. you know the negative things. you know the negative things. And of course emotions drive our And of course emotions drive our And of course emotions drive our thinking, our decision making, thinking, our decision making, thinking, our decision making, everything. everything. everything. So you know, how many of us have made a So you know, how many of us have made a So you know, how many of us have made a mistake when we were too excited, when mistake when we were too excited, when mistake when we were too excited, when we were young? we were young? we were young? You know, we won't go into those stories You know, we won't go into those stories You know, we won't go into those stories now. now. now. Excitement Excitement Excitement without regulation is not helpful. without regulation is not helpful. without regulation is not helpful. It's funny cuz you tell that then I'm It's funny cuz you tell that then I'm It's funny cuz you tell that then I'm going back to the school situation. And going back to the school situation. And going back to the school situation. And that's a big problem with a lot of that's a big problem with a lot of that's a big problem with a lot of teachers. They're like, "The kid is so teachers. They're like, "The kid is so teachers. They're like, "The kid is so excited. They just They're going to see excited. They just They're going to see excited. They just They're going to see grandma after school and they can't stop grandma after school and they can't stop grandma after school and they can't stop talking about it all day long and it's talking about it all day long and it's talking about it all day long and it's driving me crazy." driving me crazy." driving me crazy." So positive emotions can be a pain in So positive emotions can be a pain in So positive emotions can be a pain in the butt, too. the butt, too. the butt, too. And but they're afraid that they don't And but they're afraid that they don't And but they're afraid that they don't want to squelch the kids' excitement. want to squelch the kids' excitement. want to squelch the kids' excitement. And I say, "Well, let's talk about it. And I say, "Well, let's talk about it. And I say, "Well, let's talk about it. What do you think?" What do you think?" What do you think?" I mean, this is like the easiest I mean, this is like the easiest I mean, this is like the easiest solution I I came up with on the spot. solution I I came up with on the spot. solution I I came up with on the spot. I said, "What's the challenge?" He just I said, "What's the challenge?" He just I said, "What's the challenge?" He just can't stop talking about going to see can't stop talking about going to see can't stop talking about going to see his grandmother. I said, "Well, his grandmother. I said, "Well, his grandmother. I said, "Well, he must love his grandmother. That's a he must love his grandmother. That's a he must love his grandmother. That's a great thing. great thing. great thing. Have you given him an opportunity to Have you given him an opportunity to Have you given him an opportunity to stand up in the front of the class and stand up in the front of the class and stand up in the front of the class and just tell everybody how excited he is just tell everybody how excited he is just tell everybody how excited he is and just let him get it out." "What do and just let him get it out." "What do and just let him get it out." "What do you mean? You want me to give him the you mean? You want me to give him the you mean? You want me to give him the like give him like the throne?" I said, like give him like the throne?" I said, like give him like the throne?" I said, "Yeah, I want you to try this out. I "Yeah, I want you to try this out. I "Yeah, I want you to try this out. I want you to let him when he's like want you to let him when he's like want you to let him when he's like He can't stop talking about wanting to He can't stop talking about wanting to He can't stop talking about wanting to say, say, say, 'Johnny, I'm going to give you a minute 'Johnny, I'm going to give you a minute 'Johnny, I'm going to give you a minute to get up and tell everybody how excited to get up and tell everybody how excited to get up and tell everybody how excited you are, but then we're going to go back you are, but then we're going to go back you are, but then we're going to go back to math. We're going to go back to to math. We're going to go back to to math. We're going to go back to science.' science.' science.' And let me know how that works." And of And let me know how that works." And of And let me know how that works." And of course, 2 weeks later I go back and course, 2 weeks later I go back and course, 2 weeks later I go back and visit. She's like, "You're a magician." visit. She's like, "You're a magician." visit. She's like, "You're a magician." I'm like, "I'm not a magician. He just I'm like, "I'm not a magician. He just I'm like, "I'm not a magician. He just needed an outlet for his emotions. Give needed an outlet for his emotions. Give needed an outlet for his emotions. Give the kid the 1 minute to just tell the kid the 1 minute to just tell the kid the 1 minute to just tell everybody how excited it is, but also everybody how excited it is, but also everybody how excited it is, but also let him know that the expectations that let him know that the expectations that let him know that the expectations that I have for you are not changing. I have for you are not changing. I have for you are not changing. Just because you're excited about going Just because you're excited about going Just because you're excited about going to see grandma doesn't mean you have to to see grandma doesn't mean you have to to see grandma doesn't mean you have to focus. focus. focus. That's the magic of the work. Be a That's the magic of the work. Be a That's the magic of the work. Be a channel, not a dam. There you go. channel, not a dam. There you go. channel, not a dam. There you go. I didn't make that up. I learned that I didn't make that up. I learned that I didn't make that up. I learned that when I was a camp counselor in Yosemite. when I was a camp counselor in Yosemite. when I was a camp counselor in Yosemite. You get a kid that you know, back then You get a kid that you know, back then You get a kid that you know, back then we didn't have concepts of ADHD. Yeah. we didn't have concepts of ADHD. Yeah. we didn't have concepts of ADHD. Yeah. >> You had a kid that back then you would >> You had a kid that back then you would >> You had a kid that back then you would just be like, just be like, just be like, Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> "This kid is he's out of control." He >> "This kid is he's out of control." He >> "This kid is he's out of control." He wasn't harming anyone. He was just like wasn't harming anyone. He was just like wasn't harming anyone. He was just like would not settle down. You can't like would not settle down. You can't like would not settle down. You can't like just say, "Hey, sit down." Or I mean, just say, "Hey, sit down." Or I mean, just say, "Hey, sit down." Or I mean, that kid would always be getting in that kid would always be getting in that kid would always be getting in trouble, get sent home. So, you give trouble, get sent home. So, you give trouble, get sent home. So, you give them an opportunity to do something. them an opportunity to do something. them an opportunity to do something. Mhm. But then you have to like let them Mhm. But then you have to like let them Mhm. But then you have to like let them settle down. Likewise for the kid that settle down. Likewise for the kid that settle down. Likewise for the kid that was more creative and less physical, if was more creative and less physical, if was more creative and less physical, if your entire bunk was a bunch of kids who your entire bunk was a bunch of kids who your entire bunk was a bunch of kids who were super physical, that always would were super physical, that always would were super physical, that always would happen. But then you find out this kid happen. But then you find out this kid happen. But then you find out this kid who was like had some some something of who was like had some some something of who was like had some some something of value to share with the other kids and value to share with the other kids and value to share with the other kids and then it would establish his place in in then it would establish his place in in then it would establish his place in in this group. There's a very weird thing this group. There's a very weird thing this group. There's a very weird thing happening lately online. happening lately online. happening lately online. Which is this obsession with the '90s. Which is this obsession with the '90s. Which is this obsession with the '90s. Um, Um, Um, I grew up in the '90s. So, I tuned in I grew up in the '90s. So, I tuned in I grew up in the '90s. So, I tuned in the '90s. What do you say? the '90s. What do you say? the '90s. What do you say? >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And there's an example that I saw >> And there's an example that I saw >> And there's an example that I saw recently that I think is really relevant recently that I think is really relevant recently that I think is really relevant to what you're describing. It was a to what you're describing. It was a to what you're describing. It was a picture of a classroom sitting around picture of a classroom sitting around picture of a classroom sitting around listening to a radio. listening to a radio. listening to a radio. I remember doing this. It was an actual I remember doing this. It was an actual I remember doing this. It was an actual picture and it said picture and it said picture and it said when the Challenger space shuttle blew when the Challenger space shuttle blew when the Challenger space shuttle blew up, we all listened to it with our up, we all listened to it with our up, we all listened to it with our teachers cuz we were listening to that teachers cuz we were listening to that teachers cuz we were listening to that space shuttle launch. And then space shuttle launch. And then space shuttle launch. And then afterwards, we went back to afterwards, we went back to afterwards, we went back to our lesson plan. We didn't process it our lesson plan. We didn't process it our lesson plan. We didn't process it for weeks and weeks. And someone said, for weeks and weeks. And someone said, for weeks and weeks. And someone said, "Gosh, I miss the '90s." Now, at my "Gosh, I miss the '90s." Now, at my "Gosh, I miss the '90s." Now, at my school it was a little bit different. I school it was a little bit different. I school it was a little bit different. I actually remember the teacher going actually remember the teacher going actually remember the teacher going around the room the next day and asking around the room the next day and asking around the room the next day and asking people if they had anything they wanted people if they had anything they wanted people if they had anything they wanted to share. And people would share their to share. And people would share their to share. And people would share their thoughts and then like one kid said like thoughts and then like one kid said like thoughts and then like one kid said like I heard they found a foot, you know, and I heard they found a foot, you know, and I heard they found a foot, you know, and then she was like, "Okay, Garrett, you then she was like, "Okay, Garrett, you then she was like, "Okay, Garrett, you know, like settle down." You know, like know, like settle down." You know, like know, like settle down." You know, like some kids were being a bit morbid and some kids were being a bit morbid and some kids were being a bit morbid and stuff. Maybe she shouldn't have done stuff. Maybe she shouldn't have done stuff. Maybe she shouldn't have done that. I don't know. But there was an that. I don't know. But there was an that. I don't know. But there was an opportunity. But I think that was the opportunity. But I think that was the opportunity. But I think that was the last it was ever discussed. And we last it was ever discussed. And we last it was ever discussed. And we witnessed with our ears. It's not the witnessed with our ears. It's not the witnessed with our ears. It's not the same as seeing it, but we witnessed with same as seeing it, but we witnessed with same as seeing it, but we witnessed with our ears our ears our ears um um um a bunch of people blowing up. a bunch of people blowing up. a bunch of people blowing up. And it was true. It was like, "Okay, And it was true. It was like, "Okay, And it was true. It was like, "Okay, this happened. This is tragic. We're this happened. This is tragic. We're this happened. This is tragic. We're going to talk about it for a bit and going to talk about it for a bit and going to talk about it for a bit and then we're not going to talk about it then we're not going to talk about it then we're not going to talk about it anymore." anymore." anymore." Love your thoughts on Love your thoughts on Love your thoughts on the picture I just laid out. What the picture I just laid out. What the picture I just laid out. What happened? What's happening now? This happened? What's happening now? This happened? What's happening now? This kind of emphasis on let's get back to kind of emphasis on let's get back to kind of emphasis on let's get back to when things were not as coddled. Um I'm when things were not as coddled. Um I'm when things were not as coddled. Um I'm just curious what your thoughts are. just curious what your thoughts are. just curious what your thoughts are. You know, we were talking about this a You know, we were talking about this a You know, we were talking about this a little while ago. little while ago. little while ago. The world that kids are growing up in The world that kids are growing up in The world that kids are growing up in now is different. It is a different now is different. It is a different now is different. It is a different world. I was not thinking about climate world. I was not thinking about climate world. I was not thinking about climate change when I was a kid. I really didn't change when I was a kid. I really didn't change when I was a kid. I really didn't worry about who is president or not worry about who is president or not worry about who is president or not president and the whatever's going on president and the whatever's going on president and the whatever's going on politically. politically. politically. I wasn't thinking about, you know, wars I wasn't thinking about, you know, wars I wasn't thinking about, you know, wars as much as people are thinking about as much as people are thinking about as much as people are thinking about right now. right now. right now. Um I wasn't thinking about artificial Um I wasn't thinking about artificial Um I wasn't thinking about artificial intelligence and technology is going to intelligence and technology is going to intelligence and technology is going to take over my career. So, there are real take over my career. So, there are real take over my career. So, there are real concerns that high school kids tell me concerns that high school kids tell me concerns that high school kids tell me they're feeling and it's really causing they're feeling and it's really causing they're feeling and it's really causing them a lot of stress. them a lot of stress. them a lot of stress. We haven't created solutions. We're not We haven't created solutions. We're not We haven't created solutions. We're not teaching them how to manage it. We're teaching them how to manage it. We're teaching them how to manage it. We're going to have to learn how to going to have to learn how to going to have to learn how to manage it in this world we're living in. manage it in this world we're living in. manage it in this world we're living in. So, I do think it, you know, the So, I do think it, you know, the So, I do think it, you know, the challenge is there. I just want to say challenge is there. I just want to say challenge is there. I just want to say one thing that's related, which is one thing that's related, which is one thing that's related, which is this artificial intelligence piece that this artificial intelligence piece that this artificial intelligence piece that is is is obviously prominent right now in obviously prominent right now in obviously prominent right now in society, which people are freaked out society, which people are freaked out society, which people are freaked out about for some reasons and thrilled about for some reasons and thrilled about for some reasons and thrilled about for other reasons. about for other reasons. about for other reasons. The thing that I'm most concerned about The thing that I'm most concerned about The thing that I'm most concerned about is this is this is this is that about 20% of adolescents now is that about 20% of adolescents now is that about 20% of adolescents now report using technology AI as a report using technology AI as a report using technology AI as a therapist, you know, as a companion. therapist, you know, as a companion. therapist, you know, as a companion. Now, do I think you can get advice from Now, do I think you can get advice from Now, do I think you can get advice from AI about like stress? Definitely. AI about like stress? Definitely. AI about like stress? Definitely. Do I think um Do I think um Do I think um it's going to help a little bit. it's going to help a little bit. it's going to help a little bit. Do I want people to be in relationship Do I want people to be in relationship Do I want people to be in relationship with a chatbot? Absolutely not. with a chatbot? Absolutely not. with a chatbot? Absolutely not. And here's the deal. And here's the deal. And here's the deal. When I was a kid who was being bullied When I was a kid who was being bullied When I was a kid who was being bullied and like spit on in the bus and my head and like spit on in the bus and my head and like spit on in the bus and my head being banged in the windows being banged in the windows being banged in the windows and I came off the bus, and I came off the bus, and I came off the bus, what I needed was a human being what I needed was a human being what I needed was a human being to say I love you. to say I love you. to say I love you. A human being to grab my hand. A human being to grab my hand. A human being to grab my hand. A human being to say, "We're going to A human being to say, "We're going to A human being to say, "We're going to get through this together." get through this together." get through this together." There's no way the technology is going There's no way the technology is going There's no way the technology is going to replace that. to replace that. to replace that. And I would argue that this this And I would argue that this this And I would argue that this this obsession with technology to solve our obsession with technology to solve our obsession with technology to solve our emotional problems emotional problems emotional problems is is is a symptom a symptom a symptom of of of the thing we started talking about from the thing we started talking about from the thing we started talking about from the beginning, which is this fear of the beginning, which is this fear of the beginning, which is this fear of intimacy, this fear of connection, this intimacy, this fear of connection, this intimacy, this fear of connection, this fear of being present with people's fear of being present with people's fear of being present with people's emotions. It's so scary for parents to emotions. It's so scary for parents to emotions. It's so scary for parents to be with their kids' emotions. be with their kids' emotions. be with their kids' emotions. They're I never learned how to deal with They're I never learned how to deal with They're I never learned how to deal with my anxiety. I can't deal with my kids' my anxiety. I can't deal with my kids' my anxiety. I can't deal with my kids' anxiety. I'd rather not know that anxiety. I'd rather not know that anxiety. I'd rather not know that they're feeling anxious. they're feeling anxious. they're feeling anxious. And then I said, "Do you want your kid And then I said, "Do you want your kid And then I said, "Do you want your kid married to a chatbot?" married to a chatbot?" married to a chatbot?" And so, And so, And so, the real issue, in my the real issue, in my the real issue, in my humble opinion, humble opinion, humble opinion, is that we are is that we are is that we are cultivating cultivating cultivating more and more disconnection. And I think more and more disconnection. And I think more and more disconnection. And I think about this, you know, developmentally. about this, you know, developmentally. about this, you know, developmentally. And I don't think, you know, in general, And I don't think, you know, in general, And I don't think, you know, in general, you know, I was stressed out as a kid. you know, I was stressed out as a kid. you know, I was stressed out as a kid. And I was I was at the age where video And I was I was at the age where video And I was I was at the age where video games were becoming popular. And I got games were becoming popular. And I got games were becoming popular. And I got that first little football game. I could that first little football game. I could that first little football game. I could spend 10 hours a day on that. That was spend 10 hours a day on that. That was spend 10 hours a day on that. That was my way of not being in the real world, my way of not being in the real world, my way of not being in the real world, of not dealing with my challenges, of my of not dealing with my challenges, of my of not dealing with my challenges, of my parents not connecting with me. Then I parents not connecting with me. Then I parents not connecting with me. Then I got a Walkman. got a Walkman. got a Walkman. And then the internet came. And then I And then the internet came. And then I And then the internet came. And then I got email. And then I got social media. got email. And then I got social media. got email. And then I got social media. And now it's AI. This is just an endless And now it's AI. This is just an endless And now it's AI. This is just an endless trajectory trajectory trajectory of of of outside influences that are pulling us outside influences that are pulling us outside influences that are pulling us away from being in relationship. away from being in relationship. away from being in relationship. And uh And uh And uh I think I wouldn't say this I think I wouldn't say this I think I wouldn't say this I would say I wouldn't say this I would say I wouldn't say this I would say I wouldn't say this publicly. This is a podcast. Is that publicly. This is a podcast. Is that publicly. This is a podcast. Is that I never thought evolution can move so I never thought evolution can move so I never thought evolution can move so quickly. quickly. quickly. But I do feel that way all of a sudden But I do feel that way all of a sudden But I do feel that way all of a sudden with what's happening now, this chronic with what's happening now, this chronic with what's happening now, this chronic disconnection. disconnection. disconnection. And kids are preferring to text instead And kids are preferring to text instead And kids are preferring to text instead of to communicate with their friends. of to communicate with their friends. of to communicate with their friends. There's research, you know, There's research, you know, There's research, you know, anxiety, stress, and depression are anxiety, stress, and depression are anxiety, stress, and depression are increasing consistently. increasing consistently. increasing consistently. And it comes back to And it comes back to And it comes back to connection connection connection and strategies. and strategies. and strategies. Yeah. A good friend of mine who's a Yeah. A good friend of mine who's a Yeah. A good friend of mine who's a geneticist said, "It's You know, it geneticist said, "It's You know, it geneticist said, "It's You know, it takes a very long time to evolve a takes a very long time to evolve a takes a very long time to evolve a species. It doesn't take very long to species. It doesn't take very long to species. It doesn't take very long to de-volve a species. You can crash a de-volve a species. You can crash a de-volve a species. You can crash a species very quickly." species very quickly." species very quickly." In terms of In terms of In terms of people feeling overwhelmed and saying, people feeling overwhelmed and saying, people feeling overwhelmed and saying, "I can't do anything right now because "I can't do anything right now because "I can't do anything right now because of what's happening in the world." of what's happening in the world." of what's happening in the world." Uh I remember when I was an Uh I remember when I was an Uh I remember when I was an undergraduate, the '90s were pretty undergraduate, the '90s were pretty undergraduate, the '90s were pretty peaceful time. I mean, we had Gulf War peaceful time. I mean, we had Gulf War peaceful time. I mean, we had Gulf War and things like that. But relatively and things like that. But relatively and things like that. But relatively speaking. And the professor whose lab I speaking. And the professor whose lab I speaking. And the professor whose lab I worked in told me this was in Santa worked in told me this was in Santa worked in told me this was in Santa Barbara where they burned the bank down Barbara where they burned the bank down Barbara where they burned the bank down during the Vietnam War protests. But he during the Vietnam War protests. But he during the Vietnam War protests. But he said that in the early 70s said that in the early 70s said that in the early 70s uh very early 70s and and late 60s that uh very early 70s and and late 60s that uh very early 70s and and late 60s that you'd be giving a lecture, he was a you'd be giving a lecture, he was a you'd be giving a lecture, he was a young professor, and students would just young professor, and students would just young professor, and students would just stand up. What about the war in Vietnam? stand up. What about the war in Vietnam? stand up. What about the war in Vietnam? And he's like, this is a physiology And he's like, this is a physiology And he's like, this is a physiology class. We're talking about this. And class. We're talking about this. And class. We're talking about this. And they'd say, what about And the students they'd say, what about And the students they'd say, what about And the students would start protesting. So this is not a would start protesting. So this is not a would start protesting. So this is not a really new phenomenon. really new phenomenon. really new phenomenon. >> I agree. I mean, this was happening. >> I agree. I mean, this was happening. >> I agree. I mean, this was happening. People feeling overwhelmed, people People feeling overwhelmed, people People feeling overwhelmed, people feeling like the campus was theirs. feeling like the campus was theirs. feeling like the campus was theirs. They're going to make noise. I'm not They're going to make noise. I'm not They're going to make noise. I'm not justifying unlawful protest. I'm not I'm justifying unlawful protest. I'm not I'm justifying unlawful protest. I'm not I'm certainly not justifying any kind of certainly not justifying any kind of certainly not justifying any kind of protest where certain students are being protest where certain students are being protest where certain students are being restricted. I'm fundamental out going restricted. I'm fundamental out going restricted. I'm fundamental out going right. I'm fundamentally opposed to right. I'm fundamentally opposed to right. I'm fundamentally opposed to that. But this notion that people are that. But this notion that people are that. But this notion that people are feeling overwhelmed feeling overwhelmed feeling overwhelmed and young people are full of energy, you and young people are full of energy, you and young people are full of energy, you know, and they want people to know how know, and they want people to know how know, and they want people to know how overwhelmed they feel and how angry they overwhelmed they feel and how angry they overwhelmed they feel and how angry they feel. But in the backdrop feel. But in the backdrop feel. But in the backdrop the line's moving for the conveyor's the line's moving for the conveyor's the line's moving for the conveyor's moving forward. I agree. But I think moving forward. I agree. But I think moving forward. I agree. But I think that that that in order for people to feel like in order for people to feel like in order for people to feel like and this comes from the article that was and this comes from the article that was and this comes from the article that was written by you, written by you, written by you, uh you uh you uh you quoted a comment someone said, we're not quoted a comment someone said, we're not quoted a comment someone said, we're not overreacting, we're under reacting. So overreacting, we're under reacting. So overreacting, we're under reacting. So in order for people to feel heard, I in order for people to feel heard, I in order for people to feel heard, I want to double click on that comment. want to double click on that comment. want to double click on that comment. But in order for people to feel really But in order for people to feel really But in order for people to feel really heard and and understood in their heard and and understood in their heard and and understood in their reaction reaction reaction I think it's also important that I think it's also important that I think it's also important that our society just can't sit around our society just can't sit around our society just can't sit around protesting all day and and and we can't protesting all day and and and we can't protesting all day and and and we can't collapse into we can't dissolve into a collapse into we can't dissolve into a collapse into we can't dissolve into a puddle of our own tears. And I do want puddle of our own tears. And I do want puddle of our own tears. And I do want to talk to you about the ways to that to talk to you about the ways to that to talk to you about the ways to that you're formalizing this work because you're formalizing this work because you're formalizing this work because one thing that I think is wonderful one thing that I think is wonderful one thing that I think is wonderful that's happened in the last 10 years or that's happened in the last 10 years or that's happened in the last 10 years or so so so is that we've moved from the language of is that we've moved from the language of is that we've moved from the language of consciousness and mindfulness, which I consciousness and mindfulness, which I consciousness and mindfulness, which I think are great terms think are great terms think are great terms >> Of course. to long exhale breathing >> Of course. to long exhale breathing >> Of course. to long exhale breathing to the notion that stress can be to the notion that stress can be to the notion that stress can be adaptive, Ali Crum's lab, it can make us adaptive, Ali Crum's lab, it can make us adaptive, Ali Crum's lab, it can make us better, To better, To better, To an understanding that there's a way of an understanding that there's a way of an understanding that there's a way of working with your physiology working with your physiology working with your physiology to be stronger and yet acknowledge your to be stronger and yet acknowledge your to be stronger and yet acknowledge your physiology. I'm feeling stressed. physiology. I'm feeling stressed. physiology. I'm feeling stressed. Now I need to bring my stress down. I'm Now I need to bring my stress down. I'm Now I need to bring my stress down. I'm I'm exhausted. I need to figure out a I'm exhausted. I need to figure out a I'm exhausted. I need to figure out a way to have more energy. Work on sleep, way to have more energy. Work on sleep, way to have more energy. Work on sleep, etc. etc. I don't think it's happened etc. etc. I don't think it's happened etc. etc. I don't think it's happened yet, but I think it's starting that yet, but I think it's starting that yet, but I think it's starting that psychology needs the same kind of psychology needs the same kind of psychology needs the same kind of organizational principles so that people organizational principles so that people organizational principles so that people can move past narcissism, gaslighting, can move past narcissism, gaslighting, can move past narcissism, gaslighting, claiming everyone that they don't like claiming everyone that they don't like claiming everyone that they don't like is is being abusive. And there's been a is is being abusive. And there's been a is is being abusive. And there's been a sort of psychological sort of psychological sort of psychological I don't want to say collapse, but I I don't want to say collapse, but I I don't want to say collapse, but I don't think people know how to navigate don't think people know how to navigate don't think people know how to navigate this space. Whereas I think mindfulness, this space. Whereas I think mindfulness, this space. Whereas I think mindfulness, consciousness, and the idea that we need consciousness, and the idea that we need consciousness, and the idea that we need to take care of our sleep, we need to take care of our sleep, we need to take care of our sleep, we need exercise, we need sunlight, you know, I exercise, we need sunlight, you know, I exercise, we need sunlight, you know, I and others have worked very hard to try and others have worked very hard to try and others have worked very hard to try and get people to understand like you and get people to understand like you and get people to understand like you need to work with your body. You're not need to work with your body. You're not need to work with your body. You're not trying to conquer your body, but you do trying to conquer your body, but you do trying to conquer your body, but you do need to nudge it and sometimes push it. need to nudge it and sometimes push it. need to nudge it and sometimes push it. You don't want to be that person 10 You don't want to be that person 10 You don't want to be that person 10 hours on the treadmill who's suppressing hours on the treadmill who's suppressing hours on the treadmill who's suppressing everything. And I think where psychology everything. And I think where psychology everything. And I think where psychology has been a little bit self-defeating is has been a little bit self-defeating is has been a little bit self-defeating is that there's a lot of language. Mhm. And that there's a lot of language. Mhm. And that there's a lot of language. Mhm. And it can start to feel like, "Ugh, it can start to feel like, "Ugh, it can start to feel like, "Ugh, this is a lot. I got to do." So, this is a lot. I got to do." So, this is a lot. I got to do." So, along those lines, if along those lines, if along those lines, if you are told, you know, "So-and-so's you are told, you know, "So-and-so's you are told, you know, "So-and-so's gaslighting me. They're a narcissist. gaslighting me. They're a narcissist. gaslighting me. They're a narcissist. They you know, uh fascism is taking over They you know, uh fascism is taking over They you know, uh fascism is taking over and like you expect me to not be and like you expect me to not be and like you expect me to not be outraged." outraged." outraged." Quote, "We're not overreacting, we're Quote, "We're not overreacting, we're Quote, "We're not overreacting, we're underreacting." underreacting." underreacting." You're a martial artist. You're a very You're a martial artist. You're a very You're a martial artist. You're a very staid guy. Where do you start? What do staid guy. Where do you start? What do staid guy. Where do you start? What do you say to that person? you say to that person? you say to that person? Well, I think we have to ask them if Well, I think we have to ask them if Well, I think we have to ask them if they're being effective. they're being effective. they're being effective. And so, is whatever you're doing And so, is whatever you're doing And so, is whatever you're doing leading to the change that you want it leading to the change that you want it leading to the change that you want it to have? to have? to have? And if they know about emotions, you And if they know about emotions, you And if they know about emotions, you know, I don't know about you, but when know, I don't know about you, but when know, I don't know about you, but when someone is yelling and screaming at me, someone is yelling and screaming at me, someone is yelling and screaming at me, I shut down. I shut down. I shut down. I'm no longer present. And so, they're I'm no longer present. And so, they're I'm no longer present. And so, they're actually not getting their goal actually not getting their goal actually not getting their goal achieved. achieved. achieved. >> If they're asking me to do something >> If they're asking me to do something >> If they're asking me to do something different, or they're trying to help me different, or they're trying to help me different, or they're trying to help me understand something, if they can't understand something, if they can't understand something, if they can't communicate in a way that I can communicate in a way that I can communicate in a way that I can understand it, and I want to actually understand it, and I want to actually understand it, and I want to actually listen, listen, listen, it's not going anywhere. it's not going anywhere. it's not going anywhere. So, I think that people need to So, I think that people need to So, I think that people need to recognize that recognize that recognize that I'm a person who is both and. So, I'm a person who is both and. So, I'm a person who is both and. So, just to give you a concrete example, just to give you a concrete example, just to give you a concrete example, our program RULER, which is the our program RULER, which is the our program RULER, which is the school-based work that we do, is in all school-based work that we do, is in all school-based work that we do, is in all the schools in one district of Harlem, the schools in one district of Harlem, the schools in one district of Harlem, New York. 21 schools, thousands of kids, New York. 21 schools, thousands of kids, New York. 21 schools, thousands of kids, the teachers, the leaders, the deputy the teachers, the leaders, the deputy the teachers, the leaders, the deputy superintendent Don is my former student. superintendent Don is my former student. superintendent Don is my former student. They're facing food scarcity. They're facing food scarcity. They're facing food scarcity. These are really troubled families in These are really troubled families in These are really troubled families in many instances. They're facing, many instances. They're facing, many instances. They're facing, obviously, racism. They're facing obviously, racism. They're facing obviously, racism. They're facing poverty, you know, home insecurity. poverty, you know, home insecurity. poverty, you know, home insecurity. Of course, I want to solve for that Of course, I want to solve for that Of course, I want to solve for that problem. I would do anything I could to problem. I would do anything I could to problem. I would do anything I could to make sure everybody has a meal. make sure everybody has a meal. make sure everybody has a meal. At the same time, every one of those At the same time, every one of those At the same time, every one of those kids is being dropped off at school. kids is being dropped off at school. kids is being dropped off at school. And we're expecting that kid to thrive And we're expecting that kid to thrive And we're expecting that kid to thrive for 8 hours a day in that classroom. How for 8 hours a day in that classroom. How for 8 hours a day in that classroom. How can I not teach that kid skills to can I not teach that kid skills to can I not teach that kid skills to thrive? thrive? thrive? I have to. I have to. I have to. There's no obligation. There's no There's no obligation. There's no There's no obligation. There's no There's It's It's my moral obligation to There's It's It's my moral obligation to There's It's It's my moral obligation to help that kid be the best version of help that kid be the best version of help that kid be the best version of themselves, themselves, themselves, no matter what their background is, no no matter what their background is, no no matter what their background is, no matter what their circumstances are. It matter what their circumstances are. It matter what their circumstances are. It doesn't mean that I'm not also thinking doesn't mean that I'm not also thinking doesn't mean that I'm not also thinking about that. about that. about that. And I think that people in our society And I think that people in our society And I think that people in our society today, this is part of that article, is today, this is part of that article, is today, this is part of that article, is that we're so focused on the big change. that we're so focused on the big change. that we're so focused on the big change. Many of us have very little control over Many of us have very little control over Many of us have very little control over the big change. the big change. the big change. I feel blessed that I have some control I feel blessed that I have some control I feel blessed that I have some control over the lives of thousands of kids that over the lives of thousands of kids that over the lives of thousands of kids that are waking up every morning and trying are waking up every morning and trying are waking up every morning and trying to be the best versions of themselves, to be the best versions of themselves, to be the best versions of themselves, but they need help. They need but they need help. They need but they need help. They need strategies. They need teachers who are strategies. They need teachers who are strategies. They need teachers who are well, who can be the best versions of well, who can be the best versions of well, who can be the best versions of themselves for them. They need leaders themselves for them. They need leaders themselves for them. They need leaders who care about the teachers. who care about the teachers. who care about the teachers. And so, And so, And so, I think that we have to find, in our own I think that we have to find, in our own I think that we have to find, in our own way, I know my way and I sleep well at way, I know my way and I sleep well at way, I know my way and I sleep well at night thinking I'm doing important work night thinking I'm doing important work night thinking I'm doing important work to support people to support people to support people in having well-being. in having well-being. in having well-being. It doesn't mean I don't think about the It doesn't mean I don't think about the It doesn't mean I don't think about the larger issues. larger issues. larger issues. Um, but I do think that the more well Um, but I do think that the more well Um, but I do think that the more well people are the better they're able to be people are the better they're able to be people are the better they're able to be at at at problem-solving around the larger problem-solving around the larger problem-solving around the larger societal issues. societal issues. societal issues. I don't think a dysregulated society is I don't think a dysregulated society is I don't think a dysregulated society is going to solve its problems. going to solve its problems. going to solve its problems. I agree completely and I'm grateful for I agree completely and I'm grateful for I agree completely and I'm grateful for the work you're doing. I am the work you're doing. I am the work you're doing. I am I feel like that I feel like that I feel like that again, I I just draw the parallel to again, I I just draw the parallel to again, I I just draw the parallel to what's happened around sleep, stress what's happened around sleep, stress what's happened around sleep, stress regulation, exercise, nutrition. I feel regulation, exercise, nutrition. I feel regulation, exercise, nutrition. I feel like there's always resistance at the like there's always resistance at the like there's always resistance at the beginning. Like what is this stuff? Like beginning. Like what is this stuff? Like beginning. Like what is this stuff? Like I don't want a morning routine. I just I don't want a morning routine. I just I don't want a morning routine. I just want to get up and do my thing. Like I want to get up and do my thing. Like I want to get up and do my thing. Like I don't want to hear that alcohol is bad don't want to hear that alcohol is bad don't want to hear that alcohol is bad for me. Like I for me. Like I for me. Like I I mean when I was coming up in academia I mean when I was coming up in academia I mean when I was coming up in academia like alcohol was everywhere. The happy like alcohol was everywhere. The happy like alcohol was everywhere. The happy hour is that it was a source of a lot of hour is that it was a source of a lot of hour is that it was a source of a lot of problems. I was never a big drinker. So problems. I was never a big drinker. So problems. I was never a big drinker. So for me it was like great opportunity to for me it was like great opportunity to for me it was like great opportunity to go do something else, but if you didn't go do something else, but if you didn't go do something else, but if you didn't drink with your senior colleagues, it drink with your senior colleagues, it drink with your senior colleagues, it was kind of like people like what's was kind of like people like what's was kind of like people like what's wrong with you or something like that. wrong with you or something like that. wrong with you or something like that. I think what causes a tide change I think what causes a tide change I think what causes a tide change is when first of all someone creates a is when first of all someone creates a is when first of all someone creates a structure around things that science structure around things that science structure around things that science shows work. You've been doing that and I shows work. You've been doing that and I shows work. You've been doing that and I love that you're taking this broader love that you're taking this broader love that you're taking this broader through books, through podcasts, uh um through books, through podcasts, uh um through books, through podcasts, uh um into the school districts. We'll talk into the school districts. We'll talk into the school districts. We'll talk more about the ways you're doing it, more about the ways you're doing it, more about the ways you're doing it, ways people can ways people can ways people can incorporate some of this. incorporate some of this. incorporate some of this. But I think at some point But I think at some point But I think at some point a few or more brave individuals start a few or more brave individuals start a few or more brave individuals start incorporating a structure like oh wow, incorporating a structure like oh wow, incorporating a structure like oh wow, maybe Matt Walker's right. Maybe sleep maybe Matt Walker's right. Maybe sleep maybe Matt Walker's right. Maybe sleep when you're dead is not a good when you're dead is not a good when you're dead is not a good philosophy. And now the mindset is philosophy. And now the mindset is philosophy. And now the mindset is well, well, well, if you sleep, you're smarter. If you're if you sleep, you're smarter. If you're if you sleep, you're smarter. If you're smarter, you're more effective. And so smarter, you're more effective. And so smarter, you're more effective. And so the people who are doing best are the people who are doing best are the people who are doing best are incorporating a structure. incorporating a structure. incorporating a structure. And then I also think inevitably what And then I also think inevitably what And then I also think inevitably what happens and we're kind of edging up happens and we're kind of edging up happens and we're kind of edging up against this now at least in the sorts against this now at least in the sorts against this now at least in the sorts of things that I teach, is that a of things that I teach, is that a of things that I teach, is that a pushback. Like, okay, enough structure. pushback. Like, okay, enough structure. pushback. Like, okay, enough structure. Like, we need some freedom. I'm sensing Like, we need some freedom. I'm sensing Like, we need some freedom. I'm sensing that now. People like, how many things that now. People like, how many things that now. People like, how many things am I supposed to do? And the idea is am I supposed to do? And the idea is am I supposed to do? And the idea is like, you're not supposed to do them like, you're not supposed to do them like, you're not supposed to do them all. You're supposed to do what you all. You're supposed to do what you all. You're supposed to do what you need, right? And and I acknowledge that need, right? And and I acknowledge that need, right? And and I acknowledge that that's happening now. that's happening now. that's happening now. Um Um Um that's the contour of sort of the areas that's the contour of sort of the areas that's the contour of sort of the areas that that I've worked in and tried to that that I've worked in and tried to that that I've worked in and tried to share. In the area that you work in or share. In the area that you work in or share. In the area that you work in or trying to share, and I realize there's trying to share, and I realize there's trying to share, and I realize there's overlap, I feel like the structure is overlap, I feel like the structure is overlap, I feel like the structure is there. there. there. I think great examples of I think great examples of I think great examples of people, kids and adults, who are really people, kids and adults, who are really people, kids and adults, who are really not just succeeding, not just getting not just succeeding, not just getting not just succeeding, not just getting by, but are like really kicking butt by, but are like really kicking butt by, but are like really kicking butt by virtue of doing the things that by virtue of doing the things that by virtue of doing the things that you're talking about. That's what's you're talking about. That's what's you're talking about. That's what's going to lead to a systemic change. I going to lead to a systemic change. I going to lead to a systemic change. I think about Steve Kerr talks about think about Steve Kerr talks about think about Steve Kerr talks about meditation. And he's Steve Kerr, so meditation. And he's Steve Kerr, so meditation. And he's Steve Kerr, so you're like, okay, people who like you're like, okay, people who like you're like, okay, people who like basketball, like, this guy's a stud and basketball, like, this guy's a stud and basketball, like, this guy's a stud and he meditates. And so, meditation is no he meditates. And so, meditation is no he meditates. And so, meditation is no longer considered magic carpet stuff. longer considered magic carpet stuff. longer considered magic carpet stuff. Yeah. Right? For every one of these Yeah. Right? For every one of these Yeah. Right? For every one of these things, that's kind of how it is. It's things, that's kind of how it is. It's things, that's kind of how it is. It's like, breath work, okay, like, I know like, breath work, okay, like, I know like, breath work, okay, like, I know Wim Hof. Wim is a little bit eccentric. Wim Hof. Wim is a little bit eccentric. Wim Hof. Wim is a little bit eccentric. People are like, oh yeah, breathe, People are like, oh yeah, breathe, People are like, oh yeah, breathe, exhale. That's like, everyone does that exhale. That's like, everyone does that exhale. That's like, everyone does that now. So, no one's going to be like, oh, now. So, no one's going to be like, oh, now. So, no one's going to be like, oh, now we're breathing. And they're like, now we're breathing. And they're like, now we're breathing. And they're like, but how much time do we have to spend but how much time do we have to spend but how much time do we have to spend breathing? And so, I think with what breathing? And so, I think with what breathing? And so, I think with what you're talking about, I feel like it's you're talking about, I feel like it's you're talking about, I feel like it's central to everything. I actually worry central to everything. I actually worry central to everything. I actually worry about our species if we don't about our species if we don't about our species if we don't incorporate the sorts of things that incorporate the sorts of things that incorporate the sorts of things that you're talking about. you're talking about. you're talking about. You talk about, you know, the idea of You talk about, you know, the idea of You talk about, you know, the idea of regulating is not suppressing. regulating is not suppressing. regulating is not suppressing. Like, I think the the concepts are Like, I think the the concepts are Like, I think the the concepts are critical. critical. critical. And the practices are critical. So, And the practices are critical. So, And the practices are critical. So, could you give us a couple examples of could you give us a couple examples of could you give us a couple examples of the concepts that are just core the concepts that are just core the concepts that are just core concepts? You We started off this way, concepts? You We started off this way, concepts? You We started off this way, but and then maybe a few practical tools but and then maybe a few practical tools but and then maybe a few practical tools so that people can start to think about so that people can start to think about so that people can start to think about this in the same way that 10 years ago this in the same way that 10 years ago this in the same way that 10 years ago we might have talked about like, hey, we might have talked about like, hey, we might have talked about like, hey, like, you think sleep when you're dead like, you think sleep when you're dead like, you think sleep when you're dead is working for you, but you're actually is working for you, but you're actually is working for you, but you're actually kind of an idiot when you don't sleep. kind of an idiot when you don't sleep. kind of an idiot when you don't sleep. And you're in a job that requires you to And you're in a job that requires you to And you're in a job that requires you to be smart, not an idiot. be smart, not an idiot. be smart, not an idiot. This kind of thing. This kind of thing. This kind of thing. Yeah. I think, firstly, you know, in my Yeah. I think, firstly, you know, in my Yeah. I think, firstly, you know, in my book I have something called the dealing book I have something called the dealing book I have something called the dealing with feeling wheel. with feeling wheel. with feeling wheel. And this goes directly to what you're And this goes directly to what you're And this goes directly to what you're thinking about. When people are thinking about. When people are thinking about. When people are dysregulated, when parents are like dysregulated, when parents are like dysregulated, when parents are like dealing with a kid, for example, who's dealing with a kid, for example, who's dealing with a kid, for example, who's dysregulated, they get desperate. Let's dysregulated, they get desperate. Let's dysregulated, they get desperate. Let's take a deep breath. Breathe, breathe. take a deep breath. Breathe, breathe. take a deep breath. Breathe, breathe. No, let's go for a walk. No, let's cook No, let's go for a walk. No, let's cook No, let's go for a walk. No, let's cook together. No, let's play a game. No, together. No, let's play a game. No, together. No, let's play a game. No, let's do this. And you go crazy. That's let's do this. And you go crazy. That's let's do this. And you go crazy. That's not helpful. not helpful. not helpful. I'll give you an example for myself. I'll give you an example for myself. I'll give you an example for myself. For about a couple of months I've been For about a couple of months I've been For about a couple of months I've been just I have so much work and I have not just I have so much work and I have not just I have so much work and I have not slept well. The last week slept well. The last week slept well. The last week I've prioritized going to bed early. I've prioritized going to bed early. I've prioritized going to bed early. I prioritized like real dark, you know, I prioritized like real dark, you know, I prioritized like real dark, you know, the darkened room. And like to I got the darkened room. And like to I got the darkened room. And like to I got like I woke up today at 7:30. I was like I woke up today at 7:30. I was like I woke up today at 7:30. I was like, "God, God, this is a miracle." like, "God, God, this is a miracle." like, "God, God, this is a miracle." Like 7:30 it's like, you know, it's the Like 7:30 it's like, you know, it's the Like 7:30 it's like, you know, it's the middle of the afternoon. And I feel middle of the afternoon. And I feel middle of the afternoon. And I feel energized today. I feel, you know, and energized today. I feel, you know, and energized today. I feel, you know, and I'm in a good place. And I've I felt I'm in a good place. And I've I felt I'm in a good place. And I've I felt that way for like a week now. that way for like a week now. that way for like a week now. I recognize I'm building new patterns I recognize I'm building new patterns I recognize I'm building new patterns for my sleep. It's no longer in my wheel for my sleep. It's no longer in my wheel for my sleep. It's no longer in my wheel a priority. a priority. a priority. I figured it out. There are some days I figured it out. There are some days I figured it out. There are some days where my I just feel I can't think where my I just feel I can't think where my I just feel I can't think straight. straight. straight. I'm like all over the place. I realize I'm like all over the place. I realize I'm like all over the place. I realize that I've been maybe on social media too that I've been maybe on social media too that I've been maybe on social media too much. I realize I have like 85 things on much. I realize I have like 85 things on much. I realize I have like 85 things on my to-do list. And I'm like, "Mark, my to-do list. And I'm like, "Mark, my to-do list. And I'm like, "Mark, you got to go back to your mindfulness you got to go back to your mindfulness you got to go back to your mindfulness work. You need some breath work. You work. You need some breath work. You work. You need some breath work. You need to just sit around. You need to need to just sit around. You need to need to just sit around. You need to take that space. You need to get to that take that space. You need to get to that take that space. You need to get to that hot yoga class. You need to do this. You hot yoga class. You need to do this. You hot yoga class. You need to do this. You need this back into your routine." There need this back into your routine." There need this back into your routine." There are other days I sit around and think, are other days I sit around and think, are other days I sit around and think, "I'm so lonely. You know, like I don't "I'm so lonely. You know, like I don't "I'm so lonely. You know, like I don't talk to anybody anymore. You know, I talk to anybody anymore. You know, I talk to anybody anymore. You know, I feel like so like, you know, whatever." feel like so like, you know, whatever." feel like so like, you know, whatever." And I'm like, "I need connection. I'm And I'm like, "I need connection. I'm And I'm like, "I need connection. I'm desperate for connection." desperate for connection." desperate for connection." I think that's the way we have to look I think that's the way we have to look I think that's the way we have to look at it. That there are these components at it. That there are these components at it. That there are these components of our well-being and of that are of our well-being and of that are of our well-being and of that are correlated and are the same as what we correlated and are the same as what we correlated and are the same as what we do to regulate our emotions. do to regulate our emotions. do to regulate our emotions. There's the self-awareness piece. Am I There's the self-awareness piece. Am I There's the self-awareness piece. Am I Am I at all like paying attention to my Am I at all like paying attention to my Am I at all like paying attention to my emotions right now? There's that breath emotions right now? There's that breath emotions right now? There's that breath work piece. There's the cognitive work. work piece. There's the cognitive work. work piece. There's the cognitive work. There's the relational work. There's the There's the relational work. There's the There's the relational work. There's the biology of it, the sleep, the nutrition, biology of it, the sleep, the nutrition, biology of it, the sleep, the nutrition, the physical activity. Like for example, the physical activity. Like for example, the physical activity. Like for example, one of the things that happened for me one of the things that happened for me one of the things that happened for me in writing this new book was that I in writing this new book was that I in writing this new book was that I became very, very committed to my own became very, very committed to my own became very, very committed to my own fitness. fitness. fitness. Much Martial Arts was like, you know, Much Martial Arts was like, you know, Much Martial Arts was like, you know, that was like teaching 10 karate classes that was like teaching 10 karate classes that was like teaching 10 karate classes a week. I was younger than I was in the a week. I was younger than I was in the a week. I was younger than I was in the best shape of my life. Then I got like best shape of my life. Then I got like best shape of my life. Then I got like professor dumpy professor syndrome. I'm professor dumpy professor syndrome. I'm professor dumpy professor syndrome. I'm like, that is not I'm not getting on like, that is not I'm not getting on like, that is not I'm not getting on that stage looking that way anymore. I that stage looking that way anymore. I that stage looking that way anymore. I was like, "Whoa." And I made this major was like, "Whoa." And I made this major was like, "Whoa." And I made this major commitment. commitment. commitment. And one of the things that happened to And one of the things that happened to And one of the things that happened to me me me was that it became my go-to strategy for was that it became my go-to strategy for was that it became my go-to strategy for my overwhelming stress while writing my my overwhelming stress while writing my my overwhelming stress while writing my book. And I remember saying to myself book. And I remember saying to myself book. And I remember saying to myself one day like, "Mark, one day like, "Mark, one day like, "Mark, you may not finish this book, but you're you may not finish this book, but you're you may not finish this book, but you're going to be in the best freaking shape going to be in the best freaking shape going to be in the best freaking shape of your life." of your life." of your life." And truthfully, it transformed my life. And truthfully, it transformed my life. And truthfully, it transformed my life. Now here's why I'm telling you that Now here's why I'm telling you that Now here's why I'm telling you that story. story. story. Cuz in the conversation with this friend Cuz in the conversation with this friend Cuz in the conversation with this friend Marco who is a trainer, Marco who is a trainer, Marco who is a trainer, we started having these conversations we started having these conversations we started having these conversations around around around fitness identity fitness identity fitness identity and how it relates to emotional and how it relates to emotional and how it relates to emotional intelligence identity. intelligence identity. intelligence identity. And I realized something magical. And I realized something magical. And I realized something magical. Which is that Which is that Which is that now now now at 56, it's been 4 years that I've like at 56, it's been 4 years that I've like at 56, it's been 4 years that I've like done my four workouts a week. I mean, I done my four workouts a week. I mean, I done my four workouts a week. I mean, I haven't really missed a workout unless haven't really missed a workout unless haven't really missed a workout unless I'm like on a vacation, but I'll still I'm like on a vacation, but I'll still I'm like on a vacation, but I'll still do something else. do something else. do something else. I cannot not exercise. I cannot not exercise. I cannot not exercise. And this morning just to be, you know, And this morning just to be, you know, And this morning just to be, you know, talking about you know, coming on talking about you know, coming on talking about you know, coming on Huberman Lab, I'm like, I woke up at Huberman Lab, I'm like, I woke up at Huberman Lab, I'm like, I woke up at 7:30. I'm like, I got to get there by 7:30. I'm like, I got to get there by 7:30. I'm like, I got to get there by this time, but like I got I got I can't this time, but like I got I got I can't this time, but like I got I got I can't work out. I have to work out before I go work out. I have to work out before I go work out. I have to work out before I go to Huberman. Like, I can't show up not to Huberman. Like, I can't show up not to Huberman. Like, I can't show up not doing my workout. doing my workout. doing my workout. And um I knew I would feel better. I And um I knew I would feel better. I And um I knew I would feel better. I knew I'd be more present. And I did my knew I'd be more present. And I did my knew I'd be more present. And I did my hour, you know, back workout. hour, you know, back workout. hour, you know, back workout. But the point I'm really making here is But the point I'm really making here is But the point I'm really making here is that that that I identify I identify I identify as a person as a person as a person who exercises who exercises who exercises I I and I it's like just who I am. I I and I it's like just who I am. I I and I it's like just who I am. My vision for the world is that we My vision for the world is that we My vision for the world is that we cultivate people who identify cultivate people who identify cultivate people who identify as well-regulated. as well-regulated. as well-regulated. Because if you walk into a room thinking Because if you walk into a room thinking Because if you walk into a room thinking to yourself, "I got this. Nothing you to yourself, "I got this. Nothing you to yourself, "I got this. Nothing you can say can trigger me. can say can trigger me. can say can trigger me. I can get through this or I can manage I can get through this or I can manage I can get through this or I can manage my emotions." Life is going to be my emotions." Life is going to be my emotions." Life is going to be completely different. completely different. completely different. And that's why I end my book with this And that's why I end my book with this And that's why I end my book with this concept that people talk a lot about concept that people talk a lot about concept that people talk a lot about like be the best self and you like be the best self and you like be the best self and you everybody's talking about their best everybody's talking about their best everybody's talking about their best selves. selves. selves. But it really does relate to emotion But it really does relate to emotion But it really does relate to emotion regulation and there's good research to regulation and there's good research to regulation and there's good research to support it. support it. support it. That you asked me for like a concrete That you asked me for like a concrete That you asked me for like a concrete like technique. Well, this is that thing like technique. Well, this is that thing like technique. Well, this is that thing we call the meta moment. we call the meta moment. we call the meta moment. And I cultivated this technique with my And I cultivated this technique with my And I cultivated this technique with my colleague Robin. colleague Robin. colleague Robin. She was a therapist working with She was a therapist working with She was a therapist working with patients in New York City and she's patients in New York City and she's patients in New York City and she's like, "I teach them all strategies and like, "I teach them all strategies and like, "I teach them all strategies and then they go home and they yell at each then they go home and they yell at each then they go home and they yell at each other." other." other." And I'm like, "I'm a scientist working And I'm like, "I'm a scientist working And I'm like, "I'm a scientist working in schools and everybody's like this is in schools and everybody's like this is in schools and everybody's like this is boring and then nobody wants to do boring and then nobody wants to do boring and then nobody wants to do this." I'm like, "The motivation is not this." I'm like, "The motivation is not this." I'm like, "The motivation is not there. People don't see the benefit." there. People don't see the benefit." there. People don't see the benefit." People they don't see that their life is People they don't see that their life is People they don't see that their life is going to be better, going to make better going to be better, going to make better going to be better, going to make better choices, have better relationships, etc. choices, have better relationships, etc. choices, have better relationships, etc. So, what's going to make it a So, what's going to make it a So, what's going to make it a difference? Well, as we know between difference? Well, as we know between difference? Well, as we know between stimulus and response stimulus and response stimulus and response there is space. there is space. there is space. Okay, so what do I do to fill the space? Okay, so what do I do to fill the space? Okay, so what do I do to fill the space? Well, the first step Well, the first step Well, the first step is is is I got to sense that something's going I got to sense that something's going I got to sense that something's going on. I got to be aware. on. I got to be aware. on. I got to be aware. Wow, Wow, Wow, that just triggered me. Wow, that was that just triggered me. Wow, that was that just triggered me. Wow, that was not cool. not cool. not cool. My automatic habitual response is going My automatic habitual response is going My automatic habitual response is going to be who the F do you think you are? to be who the F do you think you are? to be who the F do you think you are? Like, don't talk to me that way or Like, don't talk to me that way or Like, don't talk to me that way or whatever it might be. whatever it might be. whatever it might be. Mark who is identifies as the most Mark who is identifies as the most Mark who is identifies as the most well-regulated person in the whole wide well-regulated person in the whole wide well-regulated person in the whole wide world, the feelings master, the world, the feelings master, the world, the feelings master, the emotional guru, he has a process. emotional guru, he has a process. emotional guru, he has a process. He automatically takes the breath. He He automatically takes the breath. He He automatically takes the breath. He automatically builds a space. He automatically builds a space. He automatically builds a space. He automatically takes a step back. He does automatically takes a step back. He does automatically takes a step back. He does not go on that gut. He says there's a not go on that gut. He says there's a not go on that gut. He says there's a better way. better way. better way. But that's not enough. But that's not enough. But that's not enough. So now I have to think about my best So now I have to think about my best So now I have to think about my best version of myself version of myself version of myself in my role as a husband. in my role as a husband. in my role as a husband. How do I want to be seen? How do I want to be seen? How do I want to be seen? How do I want to be talked about? How do I want to be talked about? How do I want to be talked about? How do I want to be experienced? How do I want to be experienced? How do I want to be experienced? In my role as a professor, in my role as In my role as a professor, in my role as In my role as a professor, in my role as a presenter. a presenter. a presenter. Different roles, different selves. Different roles, different selves. Different roles, different selves. And And And I've helped millions of people engage in I've helped millions of people engage in I've helped millions of people engage in this process, by the way. this process, by the way. this process, by the way. And And And when you when you when you build the space build the space build the space to think about your best self, what it to think about your best self, what it to think about your best self, what it does is it pulls you away from the does is it pulls you away from the does is it pulls you away from the trigger. trigger. trigger. And it brings you back to your values. And it brings you back to your values. And it brings you back to your values. And then through the lens of Mark, the And then through the lens of Mark, the And then through the lens of Mark, the director of the Center for Emotional director of the Center for Emotional director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence, like he's a different Intelligence, like he's a different Intelligence, like he's a different dude. He's a totally different guy than dude. He's a totally different guy than dude. He's a totally different guy than Mark who grew up in New Jersey being Mark who grew up in New Jersey being Mark who grew up in New Jersey being bullied and is triggered. bullied and is triggered. bullied and is triggered. Mark as a center director is like a Mark as a center director is like a Mark as a center director is like a you know, Oz. you know, Oz. you know, Oz. You know, the the Yoda of emotional You know, the the Yoda of emotional You know, the the Yoda of emotional intelligence. Well, well, how would he intelligence. Well, well, how would he intelligence. Well, well, how would he respond to this moment? respond to this moment? respond to this moment? This is a beautiful challenge. I love This is a beautiful challenge. I love This is a beautiful challenge. I love it. it. it. And so my point is is that we can do And so my point is is that we can do And so my point is is that we can do that for ourselves. We can help other that for ourselves. We can help other that for ourselves. We can help other people do it. We can do it in a moment. people do it. We can do it in a moment. people do it. We can do it in a moment. Ideally, we'll do it proactively. Ideally, we'll do it proactively. Ideally, we'll do it proactively. So when you go home or when you come So when you go home or when you come So when you go home or when you come into work, you pause, you identify, and into work, you pause, you identify, and into work, you pause, you identify, and you think about the best version of you think about the best version of you think about the best version of yourself, and you enter into that lens. yourself, and you enter into that lens. yourself, and you enter into that lens. My favorite story about this My favorite story about this My favorite story about this was, you know, we teach this in schools. was, you know, we teach this in schools. was, you know, we teach this in schools. And this one kid, you know, when you And this one kid, you know, when you And this one kid, you know, when you know when you when people joke about know when you when people joke about know when you when people joke about things, you know they got it. So I'm in things, you know they got it. So I'm in things, you know they got it. So I'm in this school and this teacher is like, this school and this teacher is like, this school and this teacher is like, Mark, you know, this stuff is you know, Mark, you know, this stuff is you know, Mark, you know, this stuff is you know, it's really funny. I said, what do you it's really funny. I said, what do you it's really funny. I said, what do you mean? She goes, well, this kid was mean? She goes, well, this kid was mean? She goes, well, this kid was really really not being kind to someone really really not being kind to someone really really not being kind to someone on the playground, and I called him out on the playground, and I called him out on the playground, and I called him out on it. And he came over and I said, you on it. And he came over and I said, you on it. And he came over and I said, you know, I need to know exactly what know, I need to know exactly what know, I need to know exactly what happened. happened. happened. And the kid said, you know, And the kid said, you know, And the kid said, you know, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, I'm going to tell you what happened, but I'm going to tell you what happened, but I'm going to tell you what happened, but I need you to take a meta moment first. I need you to take a meta moment first. I need you to take a meta moment first. Like the kid knew that if he if she were Like the kid knew that if he if she were Like the kid knew that if he if she were looking at what he had done through the looking at what he had done through the looking at what he had done through the best version of herself, she would best version of herself, she would best version of herself, she would respond differently. respond differently. respond differently. That's the magic of the work. Well, I That's the magic of the work. Well, I That's the magic of the work. Well, I think that the language around meta think that the language around meta think that the language around meta moment is something that I'm going to moment is something that I'm going to moment is something that I'm going to with your permission, I'm going to help with your permission, I'm going to help with your permission, I'm going to help propagate because I do think languaging propagate because I do think languaging propagate because I do think languaging and labels is very, very important in and labels is very, very important in and labels is very, very important in terms of getting useful tools out more terms of getting useful tools out more terms of getting useful tools out more broadly. You know, again, not to knock broadly. You know, again, not to knock broadly. You know, again, not to knock on the mindfulness meditation work on the mindfulness meditation work on the mindfulness meditation work that's gone goes back thousands of that's gone goes back thousands of that's gone goes back thousands of years, but you know, it occurred to me years, but you know, it occurred to me years, but you know, it occurred to me at some point like there's there's at some point like there's there's at some point like there's there's genuine power for mental and physical genuine power for mental and physical genuine power for mental and physical health in these practices, yoga nidra, health in these practices, yoga nidra, health in these practices, yoga nidra, etc. And I had to etc. And I had to etc. And I had to like have a conversation with myself and like have a conversation with myself and like have a conversation with myself and go, you know what? I'm going to take go, you know what? I'm going to take go, you know what? I'm going to take some heat for this, but I'm not going to some heat for this, but I'm not going to some heat for this, but I'm not going to call it yoga nidra. I'm going to call it call it yoga nidra. I'm going to call it call it yoga nidra. I'm going to call it non-sleep deep rest so more people do non-sleep deep rest so more people do non-sleep deep rest so more people do it. And I and I apologize, but that's it. And I and I apologize, but that's it. And I and I apologize, but that's you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, there was a reason. There's a reason to there was a reason. There's a reason to there was a reason. There's a reason to say this is the physiological sigh, you say this is the physiological sigh, you say this is the physiological sigh, you know, eventually now we know you can know, eventually now we know you can know, eventually now we know you can just do long exhale breathing, right? Um just do long exhale breathing, right? Um just do long exhale breathing, right? Um principle's the same, but languaging is principle's the same, but languaging is principle's the same, but languaging is so key for people to adopt these so key for people to adopt these so key for people to adopt these concepts and they can't drink from the concepts and they can't drink from the concepts and they can't drink from the fire hose. This is also what I've fire hose. This is also what I've fire hose. This is also what I've realized. They can't take it all at realized. They can't take it all at realized. They can't take it all at once, but you're building a curriculum once, but you're building a curriculum once, but you're building a curriculum for people and and it's for people and and it's for people and and it's so important. I I also I'm so struck by so important. I I also I'm so struck by so important. I I also I'm so struck by this this this the link that you discovered and uh the link that you discovered and uh the link that you discovered and uh and in clearly embody of internalizing a and in clearly embody of internalizing a and in clearly embody of internalizing a a a a a fit person identification. You know, a fit person identification. You know, a fit person identification. You know, you're a coach of a team, you're not you're a coach of a team, you're not you're a coach of a team, you're not going to be a slovenly coach. You're going to be a slovenly coach. You're going to be a slovenly coach. You're going to show that you also could you going to show that you also could you going to show that you also could you did all this and you could continue to did all this and you could continue to did all this and you could continue to do it if if your students and your do it if if your students and your do it if if your students and your players challenge you to, right? players challenge you to, right? players challenge you to, right? Identifying with a certain emotional Identifying with a certain emotional Identifying with a certain emotional maturity, regulation level. That that is maturity, regulation level. That that is maturity, regulation level. That that is also key because for myself, I mean, you also key because for myself, I mean, you also key because for myself, I mean, you many years ago I remember thinking, you many years ago I remember thinking, you many years ago I remember thinking, you know, I don't miss workouts. I just know, I don't miss workouts. I just know, I don't miss workouts. I just decided. I just don't miss them. To the decided. I just don't miss them. To the decided. I just don't miss them. To the point where sometimes I probably should point where sometimes I probably should point where sometimes I probably should miss them. I probably overshot the mark miss them. I probably overshot the mark miss them. I probably overshot the mark at times. Like, you know, and I learned at times. Like, you know, and I learned at times. Like, you know, and I learned I don't train sick. I now take weeks off I don't train sick. I now take weeks off I don't train sick. I now take weeks off every once in a while. So, those are every once in a while. So, those are every once in a while. So, those are structured around that. So, it's not structured around that. So, it's not structured around that. So, it's not push, push, push to the point of push, push, push to the point of push, push, push to the point of self-destruction. But with a having an self-destruction. But with a having an self-destruction. But with a having an emotional identity that you see in emotional identity that you see in emotional identity that you see in yourself and and can live into. yourself and and can live into. yourself and and can live into. I think that's a beautiful thing. I I think that's a beautiful thing. I I think that's a beautiful thing. I mean, David Goggins talks about having mean, David Goggins talks about having mean, David Goggins talks about having to have the old Goggins and the new one to have the old Goggins and the new one to have the old Goggins and the new one in order to be the new one because both in order to be the new one because both in order to be the new one because both live inside his head. He sat in the very live inside his head. He sat in the very live inside his head. He sat in the very chair and explained both of them are in chair and explained both of them are in chair and explained both of them are in here, but he has to take actions to be here, but he has to take actions to be here, but he has to take actions to be one and not the other every single day. one and not the other every single day. one and not the other every single day. And I think um And I think um And I think um as this language around what we're as this language around what we're as this language around what we're talking about evolves, talking about evolves, talking about evolves, I do think it's going to go really far I do think it's going to go really far I do think it's going to go really far and wide. I I have a theory right now. and wide. I I have a theory right now. and wide. I I have a theory right now. Tell me where it's wrong wrong cuz it's Tell me where it's wrong wrong cuz it's Tell me where it's wrong wrong cuz it's almost certainly wrong. That many people almost certainly wrong. That many people almost certainly wrong. That many people are very in touch with their extreme are very in touch with their extreme are very in touch with their extreme emotions of anger, sadness, emotions of anger, sadness, emotions of anger, sadness, um um um feeling like they're just, you know, feeling like they're just, you know, feeling like they're just, you know, they're too woke, they're too they're a they're too woke, they're too they're a they're too woke, they're too they're a fascist. Like, they're they're just in fascist. Like, they're they're just in fascist. Like, they're they're just in touch with the emotions. And then we touch with the emotions. And then we touch with the emotions. And then we have we're really good at putting labels have we're really good at putting labels have we're really good at putting labels on other people's identities, on other people's identities, on other people's identities, right? They're a narcissist. They're a right? They're a narcissist. They're a right? They're a narcissist. They're a fascist. They're extreme woke. But we fascist. They're extreme woke. But we fascist. They're extreme woke. But we don't really think about our own don't really think about our own don't really think about our own identity as much. identity as much. identity as much. >> Yeah. We're kind of lost in the >> Yeah. We're kind of lost in the >> Yeah. We're kind of lost in the emotions. And that emotions. And that emotions. And that uh political parties people usually know uh political parties people usually know uh political parties people usually know where they stand. But what would this where they stand. But what would this where they stand. But what would this look like to come up like I'm not asking look like to come up like I'm not asking look like to come up like I'm not asking you to do this on the fly, but I'm you to do this on the fly, but I'm you to do this on the fly, but I'm asking you to do this on the fly. Like asking you to do this on the fly. Like asking you to do this on the fly. Like like is should we be thinking about like is should we be thinking about like is should we be thinking about emotional maturity, emotional emotional maturity, emotional emotional maturity, emotional intelligence? Is there a word that that intelligence? Is there a word that that intelligence? Is there a word that that like we can internalize? Like, I'd like like we can internalize? Like, I'd like like we can internalize? Like, I'd like to be in shape. I kind of know what that to be in shape. I kind of know what that to be in shape. I kind of know what that is. is. is. I want to be a certain amount of I want to be a certain amount of I want to be a certain amount of strength, certain amount of endurance, strength, certain amount of endurance, strength, certain amount of endurance, certain amount of I want want able to certain amount of I want want able to certain amount of I want want able to run for the plane and not cough up a run for the plane and not cough up a run for the plane and not cough up a lung. I also want to be able to open the lung. I also want to be able to open the lung. I also want to be able to open the pickle jar. Want to be able to go up the pickle jar. Want to be able to go up the pickle jar. Want to be able to go up the stairs without pain. stairs without pain. stairs without pain. I know I have a concept of what that is I know I have a concept of what that is I know I have a concept of what that is for me. What is a label that works for me. What is a label that works for me. What is a label that works really well that people can start to really well that people can start to really well that people can start to fill in the bins of what it is to be an fill in the bins of what it is to be an fill in the bins of what it is to be an emotionally intelligent person. I think emotionally intelligent person. I think emotionally intelligent person. I think it's emotional intelligence because it's it's emotional intelligence because it's it's emotional intelligence because it's again, we need concepts that are again, we need concepts that are again, we need concepts that are clear clear clear that can be defined, that can be that can be defined, that can be that can be defined, that can be measured, and that demonstrate measured, and that demonstrate measured, and that demonstrate predictive validity. predictive validity. predictive validity. And so every one of the skills, I wrote And so every one of the skills, I wrote And so every one of the skills, I wrote a book on emotion regulation because a book on emotion regulation because a book on emotion regulation because that was the area that I wanted to focus that was the area that I wanted to focus that was the area that I wanted to focus on right now because that is at the top on right now because that is at the top on right now because that is at the top of the hierarchy. At the end, of the hierarchy. At the end, of the hierarchy. At the end, it's what you do with the feelings. it's what you do with the feelings. it's what you do with the feelings. That's the regulation piece. But to do That's the regulation piece. But to do That's the regulation piece. But to do that, you need to recognize your that, you need to recognize your that, you need to recognize your feelings, understand them, label them, feelings, understand them, label them, feelings, understand them, label them, decide whether you don't want to you decide whether you don't want to you decide whether you don't want to you want to express them or regulate it's want to express them or regulate it's want to express them or regulate it's the ruler framework. the ruler framework. the ruler framework. Emotion perception, yes, it's Emotion perception, yes, it's Emotion perception, yes, it's complicated, complicated, complicated, but at the end, it's about building but at the end, it's about building but at the end, it's about building relationships. I I can't know how you're relationships. I I can't know how you're relationships. I I can't know how you're feeling about your facial expression. feeling about your facial expression. feeling about your facial expression. You know that from Lisa's Feldman You know that from Lisa's Feldman You know that from Lisa's Feldman Barrett's work. But I can make a Barrett's work. But I can make a Barrett's work. But I can make a hypothesis and I can check in and say, hypothesis and I can check in and say, hypothesis and I can check in and say, "Hey, "Hey, "Hey, did what I say land on you well or not did what I say land on you well or not did what I say land on you well or not so well? Let's talk about it." The so well? Let's talk about it." The so well? Let's talk about it." The intelligence is the courage intelligence is the courage intelligence is the courage to engage. to engage. to engage. The understanding is listen, The understanding is listen, The understanding is listen, because of my childhood, I have a because of my childhood, I have a because of my childhood, I have a different relationship to anger than you different relationship to anger than you different relationship to anger than you do. We learned that today together. do. We learned that today together. do. We learned that today together. I see anger and I I it I have a fear I see anger and I I it I have a fear I see anger and I I it I have a fear comes in my blood because I knew I was comes in my blood because I knew I was comes in my blood because I knew I was going to get hit or yelled at or going to get hit or yelled at or going to get hit or yelled at or screamed or punished. You have a screamed or punished. You have a screamed or punished. You have a different relationship with anger. different relationship with anger. different relationship with anger. Anger still is about injustice. Anger still is about injustice. Anger still is about injustice. Period. We have to agree that the Period. We have to agree that the Period. We have to agree that the definition is about perceived injustice. definition is about perceived injustice. definition is about perceived injustice. However, my relationship to that and However, my relationship to that and However, my relationship to that and yours is different. Just like whether yours is different. Just like whether yours is different. Just like whether you're gay or straight or bi or trans, you're gay or straight or bi or trans, you're gay or straight or bi or trans, um um um homophobia homophobia homophobia to someone who is LGBTQIA to someone who is LGBTQIA to someone who is LGBTQIA is different than to someone who's not. is different than to someone who's not. is different than to someone who's not. I can't relate I can't relate I can't relate if I'm not you, but I can have the if I'm not you, but I can have the if I'm not you, but I can have the the courage to have empathy for your the courage to have empathy for your the courage to have empathy for your experience. experience. experience. That's the understanding piece. I'm not That's the understanding piece. I'm not That's the understanding piece. I'm not going to ever be a fully empathic to going to ever be a fully empathic to going to ever be a fully empathic to your life because I didn't live your your life because I didn't live your your life because I didn't live your life. It's your life. So, you can't life. It's your life. So, you can't life. It's your life. So, you can't understand my life. You can relate to understand my life. You can relate to understand my life. You can relate to pieces of it, but I can be curious about pieces of it, but I can be curious about pieces of it, but I can be curious about it and not judge it. it and not judge it. it and not judge it. The labeling piece is having that The labeling piece is having that The labeling piece is having that language, you know, what is really language, you know, what is really language, you know, what is really happening here? What is the experience? happening here? What is the experience? happening here? What is the experience? The expression piece is knowing how and The expression piece is knowing how and The expression piece is knowing how and when to express with different people when to express with different people when to express with different people across contexts. It's saying, is how I'm across contexts. It's saying, is how I'm across contexts. It's saying, is how I'm communicating landing well? communicating landing well? communicating landing well? Is my intended outcome a possibility Is my intended outcome a possibility Is my intended outcome a possibility here? Or is the person going to just, here? Or is the person going to just, here? Or is the person going to just, you know, run away? you know, run away? you know, run away? And then the last piece is the And then the last piece is the And then the last piece is the regulation, which is in the end, regulation, which is in the end, regulation, which is in the end, is this emotion helping or hurting me is this emotion helping or hurting me is this emotion helping or hurting me achieve my goals in life? achieve my goals in life? achieve my goals in life? And if it's going to hurt your goals, And if it's going to hurt your goals, And if it's going to hurt your goals, you need strategies to deal with it. you need strategies to deal with it. you need strategies to deal with it. Life is difficult. Life is difficult. Life is difficult. I don't know about you, but this journey I don't know about you, but this journey I don't know about you, but this journey in becoming an emotion revolutionary in becoming an emotion revolutionary in becoming an emotion revolutionary ain't easy. You know, now I got it's ain't easy. You know, now I got it's ain't easy. You know, now I got it's politicized and like we were talking politicized and like we were talking politicized and like we were talking about earlier, it's like, really? about earlier, it's like, really? about earlier, it's like, really? All right, come on. Like, what happened? All right, come on. Like, what happened? All right, come on. Like, what happened? Who was your mother? That's what I want Who was your mother? That's what I want Who was your mother? That's what I want to say. Like, tell me about the to say. Like, tell me about the to say. Like, tell me about the relationship you have with your mother. relationship you have with your mother. relationship you have with your mother. I probably shouldn't have said that, but I probably shouldn't have said that, but I probably shouldn't have said that, but anyway, I'm okay with that. It's all anyway, I'm okay with that. It's all anyway, I'm okay with that. It's all good. Maybe your father, whoever. The good. Maybe your father, whoever. The good. Maybe your father, whoever. The point is is that point is is that point is is that I feel very confident I feel very confident I feel very confident in that what I teach in that what I teach in that what I teach is easily defined. is easily defined. is easily defined. It's measurable. It's measurable. It's measurable. And I can show you my own and thousands And I can show you my own and thousands And I can show you my own and thousands of other studies where these skills of other studies where these skills of other studies where these skills predict things that we care about in predict things that we care about in predict things that we care about in life, whether it's well-being, whether life, whether it's well-being, whether life, whether it's well-being, whether it's leadership, whether it's it's leadership, whether it's it's leadership, whether it's decision-making, whether it's decision-making, whether it's decision-making, whether it's um um um just mental health outcomes. just mental health outcomes. just mental health outcomes. And so, it's And so, it's And so, it's I kind of have incontrovertible evidence I kind of have incontrovertible evidence I kind of have incontrovertible evidence for the effectiveness of it. for the effectiveness of it. for the effectiveness of it. And so, you can still say I'm not into And so, you can still say I'm not into And so, you can still say I'm not into it." it." it." But you have to be educated first. But you have to be educated first. But you have to be educated first. And once you once you really understand And once you once you really understand And once you once you really understand the value proposition, the why behind the value proposition, the why behind the value proposition, the why behind learning the skills, learning the skills, learning the skills, I can't imagine that I can't imagine that I can't imagine that every parent in the world wouldn't want every parent in the world wouldn't want every parent in the world wouldn't want their kid their kid their kid to develop these skills. to develop these skills. to develop these skills. Especially if these skills are going to Especially if these skills are going to Especially if these skills are going to be the defining skills of who succeeds be the defining skills of who succeeds be the defining skills of who succeeds and who doesn't. I feel like that's when and who doesn't. I feel like that's when and who doesn't. I feel like that's when a culture evolves. And I'm just a culture evolves. And I'm just a culture evolves. And I'm just imagining a future not too long from now imagining a future not too long from now imagining a future not too long from now where where where the debate around the debate around the debate around we all know who we're talking about we all know who we're talking about we all know who we're talking about here. One group is saying, "They're all here. One group is saying, "They're all here. One group is saying, "They're all fascists with no empathy." fascists with no empathy." fascists with no empathy." And the other side is saying, "Well, And the other side is saying, "Well, And the other side is saying, "Well, they're so caught up in they're so caught up in they're so caught up in inclusivity that nothing's getting done inclusivity that nothing's getting done inclusivity that nothing's getting done and people are being treated unfairly." and people are being treated unfairly." and people are being treated unfairly." That's what the Yeah, that's our That's what the Yeah, that's our That's what the Yeah, that's our society. That's the dialogue. And at society. That's the dialogue. And at society. That's the dialogue. And at some point we got to go, "Okay, some point we got to go, "Okay, some point we got to go, "Okay, everyone. Like, we understand your everyone. Like, we understand your everyone. Like, we understand your positions. positions. positions. But what are we going to do?" We got we But what are we going to do?" We got we But what are we going to do?" We got we got to move forward. I don't know that got to move forward. I don't know that got to move forward. I don't know that there's going to be a meeting in the there's going to be a meeting in the there's going to be a meeting in the middle for a while. What is going to middle for a while. What is going to middle for a while. What is going to happen, I think, is that young people happen, I think, is that young people happen, I think, is that young people will will will strive, hopefully, or they'll give up. strive, hopefully, or they'll give up. strive, hopefully, or they'll give up. And I think if the people who strive And I think if the people who strive And I think if the people who strive incorporate these tools and are rewarded incorporate these tools and are rewarded incorporate these tools and are rewarded for them, for them, for them, then that will become the standard. then that will become the standard. then that will become the standard. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> kind of interesting that the obesity >> kind of interesting that the obesity >> kind of interesting that the obesity crisis was real. Mhm. And there was also crisis was real. Mhm. And there was also crisis was real. Mhm. And there was also a discussion around inclusivity. And a discussion around inclusivity. And a discussion around inclusivity. And that is now shifted, in part because of that is now shifted, in part because of that is now shifted, in part because of the GLP's, but there's now this idea the GLP's, but there's now this idea the GLP's, but there's now this idea that that that um um um you know, being obese is unhealthy. You you know, being obese is unhealthy. You you know, being obese is unhealthy. You couldn't say that five, six years ago. I couldn't say that five, six years ago. I couldn't say that five, six years ago. I remember during the pandemic a colleague remember during the pandemic a colleague remember during the pandemic a colleague of mine, very senior colleague, said, of mine, very senior colleague, said, of mine, very senior colleague, said, "We're seeing people dying of COVID and "We're seeing people dying of COVID and "We're seeing people dying of COVID and these people who are obese." And he these people who are obese." And he these people who are obese." And he said, "But you can't say that publicly." said, "But you can't say that publicly." said, "But you can't say that publicly." He told me, Yeah, I remember that. And He told me, Yeah, I remember that. And He told me, Yeah, I remember that. And so now there's this acknowledgement, so now there's this acknowledgement, so now there's this acknowledgement, right? Um right? Um right? Um that that that you know, you know, you know, physical health is in is important and physical health is in is important and physical health is in is important and people are striving for that more. And I people are striving for that more. And I people are striving for that more. And I think there's uh think there's uh think there's uh that's a I think that's generally a that's a I think that's generally a that's a I think that's generally a positive shift. It can be taken too far. positive shift. It can be taken too far. positive shift. It can be taken too far. But I think that But I think that But I think that there's this weird moment that we're in there's this weird moment that we're in there's this weird moment that we're in where where where the name-calling and the labeling of the name-calling and the labeling of the name-calling and the labeling of others, it's not getting us anywhere. others, it's not getting us anywhere. others, it's not getting us anywhere. The opportunity cost is that we're not The opportunity cost is that we're not The opportunity cost is that we're not actually figuring out like what we're actually figuring out like what we're actually figuring out like what we're responsible for. And I I'm pointing responsible for. And I I'm pointing responsible for. And I I'm pointing fingers at both sides. And I'm also fingers at both sides. And I'm also fingers at both sides. And I'm also pointing fingers at myself because I can pointing fingers at myself because I can pointing fingers at myself because I can sit here and say all sorts of things, uh sit here and say all sorts of things, uh sit here and say all sorts of things, uh but I you know, clearly but I you know, clearly but I you know, clearly we all have this work to do. Something we all have this work to do. Something we all have this work to do. Something important about that is that you don't important about that is that you don't important about that is that you don't know someone until you know their story. know someone until you know their story. know someone until you know their story. Like I know a little bit about your Like I know a little bit about your Like I know a little bit about your story now. story now. story now. You know, I want to know more. You know, I want to know more. You know, I want to know more. But, you know, and you know a little bit But, you know, and you know a little bit But, you know, and you know a little bit more about my story. And once you know more about my story. And once you know more about my story. And once you know someone's story, you start having someone's story, you start having someone's story, you start having more interest in them, more compassion more interest in them, more compassion more interest in them, more compassion for them. for them. for them. You know, uh my partner made a movie You know, uh my partner made a movie You know, uh my partner made a movie during the pandemic called America during the pandemic called America during the pandemic called America Unfiltered, which was him and his Unfiltered, which was him and his Unfiltered, which was him and his friend. So, it's a gay Panamanian friend. So, it's a gay Panamanian friend. So, it's a gay Panamanian running around with a straight Russian running around with a straight Russian running around with a straight Russian around America for a year interviewing around America for a year interviewing around America for a year interviewing people about what it means to live in people about what it means to live in people about what it means to live in America today. And they went to Trump America today. And they went to Trump America today. And they went to Trump rallies and Biden rallies, and they went rallies and Biden rallies, and they went rallies and Biden rallies, and they went into poverty, you know, and they went into poverty, you know, and they went into poverty, you know, and they went into all over America, gun shop owners, into all over America, gun shop owners, into all over America, gun shop owners, and black moms whose kids had been and black moms whose kids had been and black moms whose kids had been murdered by the police, and murdered by the police, and murdered by the police, and um people who wanted to become um people who wanted to become um people who wanted to become Americans, you know, citizens. Americans, you know, citizens. Americans, you know, citizens. And it was a listening journey. And it was a listening journey. And it was a listening journey. And it was a remarkable uh how I did a And it was a remarkable uh how I did a And it was a remarkable uh how I did a study on this, actually. I showed people study on this, actually. I showed people study on this, actually. I showed people the expressions of people, and I had the expressions of people, and I had the expressions of people, and I had them judge, you know, would you want to them judge, you know, would you want to them judge, you know, would you want to get to know this person? How warm is get to know this person? How warm is get to know this person? How warm is this person? Et cetera. Before they this person? Et cetera. Before they this person? Et cetera. Before they watched the movie. watched the movie. watched the movie. And what we found was that uh people And what we found was that uh people And what we found was that uh people were very judgmental based on race, were very judgmental based on race, were very judgmental based on race, based on if they were holding a gun or based on if they were holding a gun or based on if they were holding a gun or not. And then you watch the movie and not. And then you watch the movie and not. And then you watch the movie and you see the gun shop owner cry when he's you see the gun shop owner cry when he's you see the gun shop owner cry when he's talking about his relationship with his talking about his relationship with his talking about his relationship with his father. father. father. And that the only way he And that the only way he And that the only way he and his father and his father and his father could bond was over could bond was over could bond was over uh you know, with uh you know, with uh you know, with And you start hearing his story and And you start hearing his story and And you start hearing his story and you're sort of like you're sort of like you're sort of like This guy's like a This guy's like a This guy's like a really nice guy actually. really nice guy actually. really nice guy actually. And then you we tested people afterwards And then you we tested people afterwards And then you we tested people afterwards and we found that people had completely and we found that people had completely and we found that people had completely different judgments of people after different judgments of people after different judgments of people after hearing them and listening to their hearing them and listening to their hearing them and listening to their stories. stories. stories. And that's what we need in our society. And that's what we need in our society. And that's what we need in our society. We need more curiosity and less We need more curiosity and less We need more curiosity and less judgment. judgment. judgment. And that goes to, you know, ourselves. And that goes to, you know, ourselves. And that goes to, you know, ourselves. We'll be much more regulated. We'll have We'll be much more regulated. We'll have We'll be much more regulated. We'll have better relationships. We don't have to better relationships. We don't have to better relationships. We don't have to agree. I don't want But there's no need agree. I don't want But there's no need agree. I don't want But there's no need to agree. to agree. to agree. But there is a need But there is a need But there is a need to be civil. to be civil. to be civil. What you're talking about are standards. What you're talking about are standards. What you're talking about are standards. Mhm. I think what you're talking about Mhm. I think what you're talking about Mhm. I think what you're talking about is some standards of emotional is some standards of emotional is some standards of emotional intelligence or at least str- intelligence or at least str- intelligence or at least str- standards for striving. Cuz if we say standards for striving. Cuz if we say standards for striving. Cuz if we say like oh there's standards of physical like oh there's standards of physical like oh there's standards of physical presence and there's what does that presence and there's what does that presence and there's what does that mean? No. Does that mean everyone has to mean? No. Does that mean everyone has to mean? No. Does that mean everyone has to have like eight-pack abs and be have like eight-pack abs and be have like eight-pack abs and be perfectly, you know, and then and then perfectly, you know, and then and then perfectly, you know, and then and then you have older people trying to reverse you have older people trying to reverse you have older people trying to reverse their age and ending up looking like their age and ending up looking like their age and ending up looking like like totally artificial and yeah and it like totally artificial and yeah and it like totally artificial and yeah and it can go too far, right? Um but I think can go too far, right? Um but I think can go too far, right? Um but I think having standards of striving like having standards of striving like having standards of striving like every kid does physical education every kid does physical education every kid does physical education because even if you're not going to be a because even if you're not going to be a because even if you're not going to be a great athlete, it's good to develop a great athlete, it's good to develop a great athlete, it's good to develop a relationship to your body and take care relationship to your body and take care relationship to your body and take care of it. Every kid should do emotional of it. Every kid should do emotional of it. Every kid should do emotional intelligence training if you're even if intelligence training if you're even if intelligence training if you're even if you're not going to become Mark you're not going to become Mark you're not going to become Mark Brackett. Brackett. Brackett. >> You you can learn to regulate better >> You you can learn to regulate better >> You you can learn to regulate better than your parents and if you if you're than your parents and if you if you're than your parents and if you if you're rewarded rewarded rewarded We love rewards, right? We're We love rewards, right? We're We love rewards, right? We're we're obsessed with if we if the we're obsessed with if we if the we're obsessed with if we if the promotions and the the money and the promotions and the the money and the promotions and the the money and the status, let's face it, people care about status, let's face it, people care about status, let's face it, people care about that stuff comes from being healthier that stuff comes from being healthier that stuff comes from being healthier physically and emotionally, who wouldn't physically and emotionally, who wouldn't physically and emotionally, who wouldn't want that? I agree and it goes back want that? I agree and it goes back want that? I agree and it goes back again. I think again. I think again. I think I'm obsessive about this like being a I'm obsessive about this like being a I'm obsessive about this like being a scientist about yourself. scientist about yourself. scientist about yourself. You said this earlier, you know, you You said this earlier, you know, you You said this earlier, you know, you based on whatever, you know, you we based on whatever, you know, you we based on whatever, you know, you we won't have to go into go into this right won't have to go into go into this right won't have to go into go into this right now, but like working out is your big now, but like working out is your big now, but like working out is your big thing. thing. thing. But then you realize, you know, like I But then you realize, you know, like I But then you realize, you know, like I need a little break. I can take a break. need a little break. I can take a break. need a little break. I can take a break. It's okay. It's okay to take a day off. It's okay. It's okay to take a day off. It's okay. It's okay to take a day off. I can go walking on the beach or I can go walking on the beach or I can go walking on the beach or whatever it is. whatever it is. whatever it is. But that's the reflection process. But that's the reflection process. But that's the reflection process. That's you having that metacognitive That's you having that metacognitive That's you having that metacognitive ability to say, let me evaluate my life ability to say, let me evaluate my life ability to say, let me evaluate my life right now. Like, right now. Like, right now. Like, I can have a day like without the gym. I can have a day like without the gym. I can have a day like without the gym. It's going to be good. I can go have It's going to be good. I can go have It's going to be good. I can go have some fun with some friends. some fun with some friends. some fun with some friends. I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I'm the same way. All of this work that we do is about All of this work that we do is about All of this work that we do is about that level of reflection. I have to ask that level of reflection. I have to ask that level of reflection. I have to ask myself, myself, myself, when I don't do my workout, is this an when I don't do my workout, is this an when I don't do my workout, is this an excuse? excuse? excuse? Like, what's really Am I really tired or Like, what's really Am I really tired or Like, what's really Am I really tired or am I just like lazy right now? am I just like lazy right now? am I just like lazy right now? Um and that's the work. You know, I was Um and that's the work. You know, I was Um and that's the work. You know, I was thinking about this as we were talking thinking about this as we were talking thinking about this as we were talking that it's a process. And you know, this that it's a process. And you know, this that it's a process. And you know, this I came up with this process for myself I came up with this process for myself I came up with this process for myself as I was, you know, writing which with as I was, you know, writing which with as I was, you know, writing which with the workouts. You know, in the beginning the workouts. You know, in the beginning the workouts. You know, in the beginning you look in the mirror. By the way, I you look in the mirror. By the way, I you look in the mirror. By the way, I took photos of myself every month. took photos of myself every month. took photos of myself every month. Every month religiously. Every month religiously. Every month religiously. And the proof is in the photos. I'm in And the proof is in the photos. I'm in And the proof is in the photos. I'm in like Sometimes I look at them like, like Sometimes I look at them like, like Sometimes I look at them like, "Wow, Mark, you really did a good job." "Wow, Mark, you really did a good job." "Wow, Mark, you really did a good job." Cuz I really got out of shape and I was Cuz I really got out of shape and I was Cuz I really got out of shape and I was not happy with myself. I was used to not happy with myself. I was used to not happy with myself. I was used to being an athlete as a martial artist. being an athlete as a martial artist. being an athlete as a martial artist. And now I have 4 years of photos, you And now I have 4 years of photos, you And now I have 4 years of photos, you know, front, side, back. know, front, side, back. know, front, side, back. Every month. And you look at the day one Every month. And you look at the day one Every month. And you look at the day one and you look at today and it's a and you look at today and it's a and you look at today and it's a completely different human being. completely different human being. completely different human being. I have to look at that once in a while I have to look at that once in a while I have to look at that once in a while cuz I still have weird issues and I look cuz I still have weird issues and I look cuz I still have weird issues and I look in the mirror and I'm like, "Uh in the mirror and I'm like, "Uh in the mirror and I'm like, "Uh I'm like, wait, the picture tells the I'm like, wait, the picture tells the I'm like, wait, the picture tells the truth." truth." truth." But the phases of that are important. But the phases of that are important. But the phases of that are important. The first phase is like, can I get The first phase is like, can I get The first phase is like, can I get through this? Can I like I can't through this? Can I like I can't through this? Can I like I can't do four workouts, go from 3,500 calories do four workouts, go from 3,500 calories do four workouts, go from 3,500 calories a day down to 1,800 calories a day. a day down to 1,800 calories a day. a day down to 1,800 calories a day. There's no way to do all that. Just like There's no way to do all that. Just like There's no way to do all that. Just like you can't take every strategy in my book you can't take every strategy in my book you can't take every strategy in my book and like be obsessive about it. Like, and like be obsessive about it. Like, and like be obsessive about it. Like, I'm going to breathe, then I'm going to I'm going to breathe, then I'm going to I'm going to breathe, then I'm going to walk, no I'm going to sleep, no I'm walk, no I'm going to sleep, no I'm walk, no I'm going to sleep, no I'm going to talk positively, no I'm going going to talk positively, no I'm going going to talk positively, no I'm going to reach out. You'll go nuts. to reach out. You'll go nuts. to reach out. You'll go nuts. It's a process. This is life's work. It's a process. This is life's work. It's a process. This is life's work. Like, the good news you got your whole Like, the good news you got your whole Like, the good news you got your whole life to work on it cuz you're going to life to work on it cuz you're going to life to work on it cuz you're going to need it forever. need it forever. need it forever. So, that first phase So, that first phase So, that first phase is kind of just a learning phase. Like, is kind of just a learning phase. Like, is kind of just a learning phase. Like, what can I like what's the little steps what can I like what's the little steps what can I like what's the little steps I can take? I can take? I can take? The second phase is like, The second phase is like, The second phase is like, you start seeing a little bit of you start seeing a little bit of you start seeing a little bit of changes. Oh, my life's a little bit changes. Oh, my life's a little bit changes. Oh, my life's a little bit better. Feel a little better. I'm better. Feel a little better. I'm better. Feel a little better. I'm sleeping better. My relations are sleeping better. My relations are sleeping better. My relations are better. I'm more positive. I even during better. I'm more positive. I even during better. I'm more positive. I even during that phase of my workouts, I went that phase of my workouts, I went that phase of my workouts, I went through this whole phase of negativity through this whole phase of negativity through this whole phase of negativity cuz I'm like, Mark, you're married for cuz I'm like, Mark, you're married for cuz I'm like, Mark, you're married for 30 years. You're 56 years old. Who gives 30 years. You're 56 years old. Who gives 30 years. You're 56 years old. Who gives a about your body? a about your body? a about your body? And I would I I mean, I would do like And I would I I mean, I would do like And I would I I mean, I would do like deadlifts and like, this is ridiculous deadlifts and like, this is ridiculous deadlifts and like, this is ridiculous like when I'm deadlifting at 55 years like when I'm deadlifting at 55 years like when I'm deadlifting at 55 years old. old. old. And I would catch myself every time and And I would catch myself every time and And I would catch myself every time and like, Mark, this is what you do. You're like, Mark, this is what you do. You're like, Mark, this is what you do. You're you are a self-sabotager right now. you are a self-sabotager right now. you are a self-sabotager right now. You got to pause You got to pause You got to pause and you got to like, where is this and you got to like, where is this and you got to like, where is this coming from? And how you going to get coming from? And how you going to get coming from? And how you going to get that that that self-sabotager self out of here? The self-sabotager self out of here? The self-sabotager self out of here? The best version of you is not someone who best version of you is not someone who best version of you is not someone who does just two sets of those deadlifts. does just two sets of those deadlifts. does just two sets of those deadlifts. You do all four. You do all four. You do all four. But it was so much work, I can't tell But it was so much work, I can't tell But it was so much work, I can't tell you. But the beauty of all that, of like you. But the beauty of all that, of like you. But the beauty of all that, of like working through the discomfort, is that working through the discomfort, is that working through the discomfort, is that is that identity phase. is that identity phase. is that identity phase. Cuz now it's not an option. Cuz now it's not an option. Cuz now it's not an option. And so if you just do it and it becomes And so if you just do it and it becomes And so if you just do it and it becomes part of your identity, part of your identity, part of your identity, you don't have those struggles anymore. you don't have those struggles anymore. you don't have those struggles anymore. I love it. And the the parallel between I love it. And the the parallel between I love it. And the the parallel between physical fitness and emotional physical fitness and emotional physical fitness and emotional intelligence is not something I intelligence is not something I intelligence is not something I predicted before this conversation, but predicted before this conversation, but predicted before this conversation, but I I love it and I I'm certain that it's I I love it and I I'm certain that it's I I love it and I I'm certain that it's resonating with people because it's just resonating with people because it's just resonating with people because it's just physical stuff is just so tangible. It's physical stuff is just so tangible. It's physical stuff is just so tangible. It's so concrete. And look, I just want to so concrete. And look, I just want to so concrete. And look, I just want to thank you for making the emotional thank you for making the emotional thank you for making the emotional intelligence piece so concrete and for intelligence piece so concrete and for intelligence piece so concrete and for laying out these steps. We'll obviously laying out these steps. We'll obviously laying out these steps. We'll obviously provide links to your books. provide links to your books. provide links to your books. >> I have a I want to play a game with you >> I have a I want to play a game with you >> I have a I want to play a game with you for a minute though. Okay. You ready? for a minute though. Okay. You ready? for a minute though. Okay. You ready? Okay. Because one of my former Okay. Because one of my former Okay. Because one of my former colleagues and I got together a couple colleagues and I got together a couple colleagues and I got together a couple weeks ago about a month ago and we weeks ago about a month ago and we weeks ago about a month ago and we decided like, people are so decided like, people are so decided like, people are so disconnected. We so we took all the disconnected. We so we took all the disconnected. We so we took all the contents of my my books and we made a contents of my my books and we made a contents of my my books and we made a game. So that you actually when you have game. So that you actually when you have game. So that you actually when you have your party, your party, your party, it's called the point of connection. it's called the point of connection. it's called the point of connection. And so I did these are random cards. And so I did these are random cards. And so I did these are random cards. >> And it involve an app or a Wi-Fi >> And it involve an app or a Wi-Fi >> And it involve an app or a Wi-Fi connection. connection. connection. >> got to be with people. Awesome. So, >> got to be with people. Awesome. So, >> got to be with people. Awesome. So, uh there's your first card. uh there's your first card. uh there's your first card. What's the best advice a mentor ever What's the best advice a mentor ever What's the best advice a mentor ever gave you and how has it shaped the way gave you and how has it shaped the way gave you and how has it shaped the way you live or work? Two pieces. Two pieces. Briefly. Briefly. Briefly. The Mike Mentzer, one of the great The Mike Mentzer, one of the great The Mike Mentzer, one of the great trainers, trainers, trainers, gave me the advice to do gave me the advice to do gave me the advice to do low volume, high intensity resistance low volume, high intensity resistance low volume, high intensity resistance training. training. training. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Each body part once a week and train Each body part once a week and train Each body part once a week and train only three times per week, maybe four. only three times per week, maybe four. only three times per week, maybe four. Never more than 75 minutes, but to Never more than 75 minutes, but to Never more than 75 minutes, but to really learn to enjoy training extremely really learn to enjoy training extremely really learn to enjoy training extremely hard. And I followed that advice for 30 hard. And I followed that advice for 30 hard. And I followed that advice for 30 plus years and I look forward to plus years and I look forward to plus years and I look forward to workouts. So, I don't work out every workouts. So, I don't work out every workouts. So, I don't work out every day. day. day. Um amazing advice. And then the Um amazing advice. And then the Um amazing advice. And then the other advice, which is separate from other advice, which is separate from other advice, which is separate from fitness, comes from a guy named fitness, comes from a guy named fitness, comes from a guy named Bob Knight, who is a neurologist at UC Bob Knight, who is a neurologist at UC Bob Knight, who is a neurologist at UC Berkeley, Berkeley, Berkeley, who said, "Figure out how much work you who said, "Figure out how much work you who said, "Figure out how much work you can do each week consistently can do each week consistently can do each week consistently and then find some way to reset yourself and then find some way to reset yourself and then find some way to reset yourself each week that is not destructive." And each week that is not destructive." And each week that is not destructive." And I said, "What's yours?" And he said, I said, "What's yours?" And he said, I said, "What's yours?" And he said, "Fishing." And I I was like, "Okay, I've "Fishing." And I I was like, "Okay, I've "Fishing." And I I was like, "Okay, I've done a lot of fishing cuz my mom's side done a lot of fishing cuz my mom's side done a lot of fishing cuz my mom's side all the men went fishing and all the men went fishing and all the men went fishing and I like it. Decent fisherman, but I I like it. Decent fisherman, but I I like it. Decent fisherman, but I thought, "What is that for me?" For me thought, "What is that for me?" For me thought, "What is that for me?" For me it's hiking. Mhm. So, it could for it's hiking. Mhm. So, it could for it's hiking. Mhm. So, it could for someone else it could be something else, someone else it could be something else, someone else it could be something else, but I taught my lab that and I would but I taught my lab that and I would but I taught my lab that and I would teach a career development course at teach a career development course at teach a career development course at where I would pass that on at Cold where I would pass that on at Cold where I would pass that on at Cold Spring Harbor during the summer, which Spring Harbor during the summer, which Spring Harbor during the summer, which is kind of geek summer camp. And I said, is kind of geek summer camp. And I said, is kind of geek summer camp. And I said, "That doesn't mean drinking." "That doesn't mean drinking." "That doesn't mean drinking." But maybe one or two drinks. Someone But maybe one or two drinks. Someone But maybe one or two drinks. Someone said, "Okay, fine." As long as it's said, "Okay, fine." As long as it's said, "Okay, fine." As long as it's non-destructive, find a way to reset non-destructive, find a way to reset non-destructive, find a way to reset every week. And just keep coming back. every week. And just keep coming back. every week. And just keep coming back. And so, both of those things were about And so, both of those things were about And so, both of those things were about consistency and intensity. So, two consistency and intensity. So, two consistency and intensity. So, two mentors. All right, last one because I mentors. All right, last one because I mentors. All right, last one because I think this one is more relevant to our think this one is more relevant to our think this one is more relevant to our specific conversation. specific conversation. specific conversation. >> right? >> right? >> right? What's one emotion you've been carrying What's one emotion you've been carrying What's one emotion you've been carrying a lot lately that you'd like to a lot lately that you'd like to a lot lately that you'd like to experience less often? Oof. experience less often? Oof. experience less often? Oof. Man. Sorry. What might help soften it? Man. Sorry. What might help soften it? Man. Sorry. What might help soften it? >> [snorts] >> All right. >> All right. Um I don't know the name of this emotion. I don't know the name of this emotion. Maybe you can help me. I'll try and Maybe you can help me. I'll try and Maybe you can help me. I'll try and describe it briefly. describe it briefly. describe it briefly. Lately I've been having these moments Lately I've been having these moments Lately I've been having these moments of of of feeling so much love and affection for feeling so much love and affection for feeling so much love and affection for someone and it like opens and then I go someone and it like opens and then I go someone and it like opens and then I go and then it shuts. But it's not opening and then it shuts. But it's not opening and then it shuts. But it's not opening and shutting cuz of them. I'm like and shutting cuz of them. I'm like and shutting cuz of them. I'm like and I know this feeling because in a and I know this feeling because in a and I know this feeling because in a different version of it, I'm about to different version of it, I'm about to different version of it, I'm about to get a new puppy. He's already picked get a new puppy. He's already picked get a new puppy. He's already picked out. He's already out. He's already out. He's already he's waiting. And he's waiting. And he's waiting. And I know the difference between I know the difference between I know the difference between what I just described and you're like what I just described and you're like what I just described and you're like and I just let it rip with the with the and I just let it rip with the with the and I just let it rip with the with the dog. Two different things, person, dog. dog. Two different things, person, dog. dog. Two different things, person, dog. I acknowledge there's a fundamental I acknowledge there's a fundamental I acknowledge there's a fundamental difference. But I feel this sort of like difference. But I feel this sort of like difference. But I feel this sort of like like I shut it down. So what is that like I shut it down. So what is that like I shut it down. So what is that emotion of closing down? I guess like emotion of closing down? I guess like emotion of closing down? I guess like shutting off to love. Is that an shutting off to love. Is that an shutting off to love. Is that an emotion? Or did I probably just revealed emotion? Or did I probably just revealed emotion? Or did I probably just revealed way more than I am? way more than I am? way more than I am? >> Well, love is a feeling obviously and >> Well, love is a feeling obviously and >> Well, love is a feeling obviously and um um um but I think but I think but I think you know, um we're going to go back to you know, um we're going to go back to you know, um we're going to go back to that opening a little bit about that that opening a little bit about that that opening a little bit about that fear and vulnerability. Like just fear and vulnerability. Like just fear and vulnerability. Like just allowing yourself to be with. There's allowing yourself to be with. There's allowing yourself to be with. There's something that's something that's something that's getting in the way there. getting in the way there. getting in the way there. So what might help soften it? So what might help soften it? So what might help soften it? Time? Time? Time? Yeah. Just be with it. Let it let it Yeah. Just be with it. Let it let it Yeah. Just be with it. Let it let it >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Man. >> Man. >> Man. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Thank you for that opportunity. Thank >> Thank you for that opportunity. Thank >> Thank you for that opportunity. Thank you. I actually really appreciate the you. I actually really appreciate the you. I actually really appreciate the opportunity. I hadn't thought about that opportunity. I hadn't thought about that opportunity. I hadn't thought about that until I read this. Are you willing to until I read this. Are you willing to until I read this. Are you willing to answer one? Yeah, sure. You're the answer one? Yeah, sure. You're the answer one? Yeah, sure. You're the guest. I feel like you should speak guest. I feel like you should speak guest. I feel like you should speak last. I spoke a lot today. All right. Um last. I spoke a lot today. All right. Um last. I spoke a lot today. All right. Um I can pick one or you can pick one. I can pick one or you can pick one. I can pick one or you can pick one. How's the game work? You basically you How's the game work? You basically you How's the game work? You basically you can go in circles and everybody shares can go in circles and everybody shares can go in circles and everybody shares and you look for the point of and you look for the point of and you look for the point of connection. So it's connection. So it's connection. So it's get to know people at a party. get to know people at a party. get to know people at a party. You know, in the workplace. You know, in the workplace. You know, in the workplace. Who is one of your heroes and what does Who is one of your heroes and what does Who is one of your heroes and what does that reveal about what you value? that reveal about what you value? that reveal about what you value? Well, as you know from our prior Well, as you know from our prior Well, as you know from our prior um conversation, my the hero in my life um conversation, my the hero in my life um conversation, my the hero in my life was my uncle Marvin because he helped me was my uncle Marvin because he helped me was my uncle Marvin because he helped me get through my very traumatic experience get through my very traumatic experience get through my very traumatic experience as a kid. as a kid. as a kid. And what I value And what I value And what I value about him now that I think about it more about him now that I think about it more about him now that I think about it more was that nothing I could say was that nothing I could say was that nothing I could say could startle him, nothing I could say could startle him, nothing I could say could startle him, nothing I could say would make him run away. would make him run away. would make him run away. He would He was just fully present He would He was just fully present He would He was just fully present and a listener and a learner and a listener and a learner and a listener and a learner and provided steady support. and provided steady support. and provided steady support. Well, clearly you've internalized that. Well, clearly you've internalized that. Well, clearly you've internalized that. Um Um Um Mark, thank you so much for coming back. Mark, thank you so much for coming back. Mark, thank you so much for coming back. Your your work is evolving so fast and Your your work is evolving so fast and Your your work is evolving so fast and uh you're doing such good in the world uh you're doing such good in the world uh you're doing such good in the world and uh and uh and uh do come back again. I feel like you're do come back again. I feel like you're do come back again. I feel like you're you're clearly on the move. you're clearly on the move. you're clearly on the move. >> There you go. Um and doing amazing >> There you go. Um and doing amazing >> There you go. Um and doing amazing things and uh again, I'll put links to things and uh again, I'll put links to things and uh again, I'll put links to your book and your books plural and and your book and your books plural and and your book and your books plural and and other work, but just want to say thank other work, but just want to say thank other work, but just want to say thank you as a you as a you as a as a as a as a co-public educator um and uh somebody co-public educator um and uh somebody co-public educator um and uh somebody who's really doing important work in the who's really doing important work in the who's really doing important work in the world. Thank you. You're a really good world. Thank you. You're a really good world. Thank you. You're a really good man. man. man. Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate you. you. you. Thank you for joining me for today's Thank you for joining me for today's Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett. To discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett. To discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett. To learn more about his work and to find learn more about his work and to find learn more about his work and to find links to his books, please see the links links to his books, please see the links links to his books, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're in the show note captions. If you're in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this learning from and or enjoying this learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please to support us. In addition, please to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow the podcast by clicking the follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. follow button on both Spotify and Apple. follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can And on both Spotify and Apple, you can And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And leave us up to a five-star review. And leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both you can now leave us comments at both you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out Spotify and Apple. Please also check out Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning the sponsors mentioned at the beginning the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's and throughout today's episode. That's and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If the best way to support this podcast. If the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments you have questions for me or comments you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics about the podcast or guests or topics about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the that you'd like me to consider for the that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those Huberman Lab podcast, please put those Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do in the comment section on YouTube. I do in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you read all the comments. For those of you read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book that haven't heard, I have a new book that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an Operating It's entitled Protocols, an Operating It's entitled Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more than 5 years and that's based on more than 5 years and that's based on more than 5 years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, to everything from sleep to exercise, to everything from sleep to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to stress control, protocols related to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various There you can find links to various There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already Human Body. And if you're not already Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am following me on social media, I am following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So, that's Instagram, X, platforms. So, that's Instagram, X, platforms. So, that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science all those platforms, I discuss science all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which and science-related tools, some of which and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the overlaps with the content of the overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the is distinct from the information on the is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already platforms. And if you haven't already platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network subscribed to our Neural Network subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast newsletter that includes podcast newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call summaries as well as what we call summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one-to-three protocols in the form of one-to-three protocols in the form of one-to-three page PDFs that cover everything from how page PDFs that cover everything from how page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize to optimize your sleep, how to optimize to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol have a foundational fitness protocol have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and that covers cardiovascular training and that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is resistance training. All of that is resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You available completely zero cost. You available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll menu tab in the top right corner, scroll menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your down to newsletter, and enter your down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do email. And I should emphasize that we do email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank not share your email with anybody. Thank not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark today's discussion with Dr. Mark today's discussion with Dr. Mark Brackett. And last, but certainly not Brackett. And last, but certainly not Brackett. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your [music] least, thank you for your [music] least, thank you for your [music] interest in science.