How To Become Dramatically Better

All right, Charles, I want to show you All right, Charles, I want to show you something. So, in 2014, I wrote about something. So, in 2014, I wrote about something. So, in 2014, I wrote about how I lost weight. But previously, I how I lost weight. But previously, I how I lost weight. But previously, I used your book a year before because I used your book a year before because I used your book a year before because I had a little bit of a drinking issue and had a little bit of a drinking issue and had a little bit of a drinking issue and it was frankly was kind of ruining my it was frankly was kind of ruining my it was frankly was kind of ruining my life. And I read your book and the idea life. And I read your book and the idea life. And I read your book and the idea of the habit loop changed my life. And of the habit loop changed my life. And of the habit loop changed my life. And that's why I'm so excited to talk to that's why I'm so excited to talk to that's why I'm so excited to talk to you. your book changed my life probably more your book changed my life probably more than any book I've ever read and I have than any book I've ever read and I have than any book I've ever read and I have read probably thousands of books. So, read probably thousands of books. So, read probably thousands of books. So, I'll tell you the story. So, basically, I'll tell you the story. So, basically, I'll tell you the story. So, basically, uh yeah, I had like an issue with with uh yeah, I had like an issue with with uh yeah, I had like an issue with with alcohol and I read your book and you you alcohol and I read your book and you you alcohol and I read your book and you you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the way can correct me if I'm wrong, but the way can correct me if I'm wrong, but the way that I distinctly remember it is that a that I distinctly remember it is that a that I distinctly remember it is that a habit doesn't go away. You just have to habit doesn't go away. You just have to habit doesn't go away. You just have to change part of the routine and replace change part of the routine and replace change part of the routine and replace it. it. it. >> That's exactly right. One of the ways >> That's exactly right. One of the ways >> That's exactly right. One of the ways that people continue being stuck on this that people continue being stuck on this that people continue being stuck on this treadmill, and this sounds very treadmill, and this sounds very treadmill, and this sounds very oversimplified, but it's true in my oversimplified, but it's true in my oversimplified, but it's true in my case, like you start like craving case, like you start like craving case, like you start like craving carbohydrates the day after you drink. carbohydrates the day after you drink. carbohydrates the day after you drink. Like you still crave, cuz I was drinking Like you still crave, cuz I was drinking Like you still crave, cuz I was drinking like 20 beers a day, and I still craved like 20 beers a day, and I still craved like 20 beers a day, and I still craved like the sugar. And so I actually just like the sugar. And so I actually just like the sugar. And so I actually just made a small habit. Every time I wanted made a small habit. Every time I wanted made a small habit. Every time I wanted to uh drink alcohol, a beer, I ate a to uh drink alcohol, a beer, I ate a to uh drink alcohol, a beer, I ate a pack of M&M's. And that like sugar pack of M&M's. And that like sugar pack of M&M's. And that like sugar replacement actually helped me like kick replacement actually helped me like kick replacement actually helped me like kick booze. Then I replaced that with booze. Then I replaced that with booze. Then I replaced that with non-alcoholic beer. and I got fat along non-alcoholic beer. and I got fat along non-alcoholic beer. and I got fat along the way, but I was like, I'll get fat the way, but I was like, I'll get fat the way, but I was like, I'll get fat and then I'll I'll I'll kick that habit and then I'll I'll I'll kick that habit and then I'll I'll I'll kick that habit later. later. later. >> I love this. I look because you're >> I love this. I look because you're >> I love this. I look because you're exactly right. So, so for folks who exactly right. So, so for folks who exactly right. So, so for folks who aren't familiar with it, the the habit aren't familiar with it, the the habit aren't familiar with it, the the habit loop is what research tells us is that loop is what research tells us is that loop is what research tells us is that every habit in our life and about 40 to every habit in our life and about 40 to every habit in our life and about 40 to 45% of what we do every day is a habit. 45% of what we do every day is a habit. 45% of what we do every day is a habit. Every habit has these three components. Every habit has these three components. Every habit has these three components. There's a cue, which is like a trigger There's a cue, which is like a trigger There's a cue, which is like a trigger for the automatic behavior, and then the for the automatic behavior, and then the for the automatic behavior, and then the routine, right? picking up the beer and routine, right? picking up the beer and routine, right? picking up the beer and drinking it or you going for a run if drinking it or you going for a run if drinking it or you going for a run if you're if you have an exercise habit. you're if you have an exercise habit. you're if you have an exercise habit. And when we do that, it delivers a And when we do that, it delivers a And when we do that, it delivers a reward to us. Every habit in your life reward to us. Every habit in your life reward to us. Every habit in your life delivers a reward whether you're aware delivers a reward whether you're aware delivers a reward whether you're aware of it or not. And over time, our brain of it or not. And over time, our brain of it or not. And over time, our brain begins to associate this cue, this begins to associate this cue, this begins to associate this cue, this routine, and this reward into a little routine, and this reward into a little routine, and this reward into a little package that happens almost package that happens almost package that happens almost automatically inside our brain. And at automatically inside our brain. And at automatically inside our brain. And at the core of it, you're exactly right, is the core of it, you're exactly right, is the core of it, you're exactly right, is this craving. And there's a woman named this craving. And there's a woman named this craving. And there's a woman named Dr. Dr. Ann Greyel at at MIT who's done Dr. Dr. Ann Greyel at at MIT who's done Dr. Dr. Ann Greyel at at MIT who's done research on habits and what she's found research on habits and what she's found research on habits and what she's found is that if you create a habit in say a is that if you create a habit in say a is that if you create a habit in say a rat's brain for running a maze and then rat's brain for running a maze and then rat's brain for running a maze and then you remove it from the maze for you remove it from the maze for you remove it from the maze for literally years and then bring it back literally years and then bring it back literally years and then bring it back and drop it in the maze again it that and drop it in the maze again it that and drop it in the maze again it that habit reemerges instantaneously and it's habit reemerges instantaneously and it's habit reemerges instantaneously and it's because this Q routine and reward the because this Q routine and reward the because this Q routine and reward the neural pathways associated with those neural pathways associated with those neural pathways associated with those three things have gotten thicker and three things have gotten thicker and three things have gotten thicker and thicker and thicker and so when you stop thicker and thicker and so when you stop thicker and thicker and so when you stop try and extinguish a habit when you just try and extinguish a habit when you just try and extinguish a habit when you just say I'm going to stop drinking just, you say I'm going to stop drinking just, you say I'm going to stop drinking just, you know, I'm going to I'm going to white know, I'm going to I'm going to white know, I'm going to I'm going to white knuckle it and give up cigarettes knuckle it and give up cigarettes knuckle it and give up cigarettes because that neural pathway still because that neural pathway still because that neural pathway still exists. You still have that craving. You exists. You still have that craving. You exists. You still have that craving. You still have that urge. So, you're exactly still have that urge. So, you're exactly still have that urge. So, you're exactly right. The key is don't try and right. The key is don't try and right. The key is don't try and extinguish the habit. Rather, try and extinguish the habit. Rather, try and extinguish the habit. Rather, try and change it. Find a new behavior like change it. Find a new behavior like change it. Find a new behavior like eating M&M's that corresponds to the old eating M&M's that corresponds to the old eating M&M's that corresponds to the old cue and that delivers something similar cue and that delivers something similar cue and that delivers something similar to the old reward. And in doing so, to the old reward. And in doing so, to the old reward. And in doing so, you're kind of overwriting that neural you're kind of overwriting that neural you're kind of overwriting that neural pathway inside your brain. And I did pathway inside your brain. And I did pathway inside your brain. And I did this with uh the help of a doctor and I this with uh the help of a doctor and I this with uh the help of a doctor and I was like look the doctor was like just was like look the doctor was like just was like look the doctor was like just get fat for a little while. We'll we'll get fat for a little while. We'll we'll get fat for a little while. We'll we'll figure that out later. So I got fat and figure that out later. So I got fat and figure that out later. So I got fat and then uh that's when I wrote this blog then uh that's when I wrote this blog then uh that's when I wrote this blog post of how I lost weight. And the way post of how I lost weight. And the way post of how I lost weight. And the way that I lost weight it was very simple. that I lost weight it was very simple. that I lost weight it was very simple. You had this idea called a keystone You had this idea called a keystone You had this idea called a keystone habit which I don't know if you invented habit which I don't know if you invented habit which I don't know if you invented that term but that's crazy because like that term but that's crazy because like that term but that's crazy because like it's like a term that everyone uses now. it's like a term that everyone uses now. it's like a term that everyone uses now. But basically my keystone habit was that But basically my keystone habit was that But basically my keystone habit was that I would put my running shoes next to my I would put my running shoes next to my I would put my running shoes next to my bed and then I would sleep in my workout bed and then I would sleep in my workout bed and then I would sleep in my workout gear that morning. So when I woke up I gear that morning. So when I woke up I gear that morning. So when I woke up I was in my running gear or in my you know was in my running gear or in my you know was in my running gear or in my you know workout gear and then I h I when I when workout gear and then I h I when I when workout gear and then I h I when I when my feet touched the floor they went into my feet touched the floor they went into my feet touched the floor they went into the shoes. the shoes. the shoes. >> Yeah, that's a really smart a really >> Yeah, that's a really smart a really >> Yeah, that's a really smart a really smart cue and and yeah, I actually did smart cue and and yeah, I actually did smart cue and and yeah, I actually did come up with a phrase keystone habit. come up with a phrase keystone habit. come up with a phrase keystone habit. It's It's It's >> Did you really? That's awesome. Well, my >> Did you really? That's awesome. Well, my >> Did you really? That's awesome. Well, my my wife is a biologist and there's this my wife is a biologist and there's this my wife is a biologist and there's this concept of key keystone species. And so concept of key keystone species. And so concept of key keystone species. And so I was talking through this idea which I was talking through this idea which I was talking through this idea which exists in the scientific literature but exists in the scientific literature but exists in the scientific literature but had never been kind of called this and had never been kind of called this and had never been kind of called this and and we were like it's kind of like a and we were like it's kind of like a and we were like it's kind of like a keystone habit. But what I love about keystone habit. But what I love about keystone habit. But what I love about what you just said is that so there's a what you just said is that so there's a what you just said is that so there's a there's a writer named David Epstein who there's a writer named David Epstein who there's a writer named David Epstein who um he's written a bunch of books. he um he's written a bunch of books. he um he's written a bunch of books. he will also sleep in his workout clothes. will also sleep in his workout clothes. will also sleep in his workout clothes. And it's because that Q when you wake up And it's because that Q when you wake up And it's because that Q when you wake up and you throw your feet out of bed and and you throw your feet out of bed and and you throw your feet out of bed and you're already in your clothes, that Q, you're already in your clothes, that Q, you're already in your clothes, that Q, it just makes it so easy to like take it just makes it so easy to like take it just makes it so easy to like take the next step and like go out the door, the next step and like go out the door, the next step and like go out the door, right? Like you probably at this point right? Like you probably at this point right? Like you probably at this point when you are running, you're not even when you are running, you're not even when you are running, you're not even thinking about running as you start. thinking about running as you start. thinking about running as you start. You're just kind of on autopilot. You're You're just kind of on autopilot. You're You're just kind of on autopilot. You're doing what feels natural. And this is doing what feels natural. And this is doing what feels natural. And this is the power of habits is that we can the power of habits is that we can the power of habits is that we can choose these behaviors that we want to choose these behaviors that we want to choose these behaviors that we want to encourage and we can make them not a encourage and we can make them not a encourage and we can make them not a product of willpower or of you know sort product of willpower or of you know sort product of willpower or of you know sort of white knuckling it but rather of white knuckling it but rather of white knuckling it but rather something that happens automatically something that happens automatically something that happens automatically because there's this part of our brain because there's this part of our brain because there's this part of our brain the basil ganglia that exists just to the basil ganglia that exists just to the basil ganglia that exists just to make habits and that's what ultimately make habits and that's what ultimately make habits and that's what ultimately makes us successful is choosing the makes us successful is choosing the makes us successful is choosing the habits that we want figuring out how to habits that we want figuring out how to habits that we want figuring out how to design them by paying attention to the design them by paying attention to the design them by paying attention to the cues and rewards around them and then cues and rewards around them and then cues and rewards around them and then making those behaviors so automatic that making those behaviors so automatic that making those behaviors so automatic that you don't have to decide to go for a run you don't have to decide to go for a run you don't have to decide to go for a run in the morning. You don't have to decide in the morning. You don't have to decide in the morning. You don't have to decide to skip that that beer. You don't have to skip that that beer. You don't have to skip that that beer. You don't have to decide to sit down and, you know, to decide to sit down and, you know, to decide to sit down and, you know, pound out all those emails you've been pound out all those emails you've been pound out all those emails you've been thinking about. It just happens thinking about. It just happens thinking about. It just happens automatically and as a result, it feels automatically and as a result, it feels automatically and as a result, it feels much easier. much easier. much easier. >> I uh my my last company, I think we had >> I uh my my last company, I think we had >> I uh my my last company, I think we had 30ish employees when I sold and then my 30ish employees when I sold and then my 30ish employees when I sold and then my current company now, we are at around current company now, we are at around current company now, we are at around that. And both of those stages are when that. And both of those stages are when that. And both of those stages are when systems and processes start to really systems and processes start to really systems and processes start to really matter. matter. matter. >> Yeah. And there's this like phrase in >> Yeah. And there's this like phrase in >> Yeah. And there's this like phrase in the CEO something like you don't rise to the CEO something like you don't rise to the CEO something like you don't rise to like your willpower, you fall to your like your willpower, you fall to your like your willpower, you fall to your systems or something like that where systems or something like that where systems or something like that where it's like the system is what like it's like the system is what like it's like the system is what like dictates whether you're going to be dictates whether you're going to be dictates whether you're going to be successful or not, not like you know successful or not, not like you know successful or not, not like you know willpower or not like how you feel. willpower or not like how you feel. willpower or not like how you feel. >> And the point being at a company you >> And the point being at a company you >> And the point being at a company you have to have systems because that's what have to have systems because that's what have to have systems because that's what you fall that's that's what what you you fall that's that's what what you you fall that's that's what what you default to. default to. default to. >> That's and that's what you rely on. >> That's and that's what you rely on. >> That's and that's what you rely on. Yeah. And can I ask you okay so when Yeah. And can I ask you okay so when Yeah. And can I ask you okay so when you've thought about the systems you've you've thought about the systems you've you've thought about the systems you've created now that you guys are at 30 created now that you guys are at 30 created now that you guys are at 30 people and the systems really matter. people and the systems really matter. people and the systems really matter. What's a system that you've developed What's a system that you've developed What's a system that you've developed that you're really proud of like an that you're really proud of like an that you're really proud of like an institutional organizational habit? institutional organizational habit? institutional organizational habit? >> I'll give you one really simple example, >> I'll give you one really simple example, >> I'll give you one really simple example, but I will say like people like me, but I will say like people like me, but I will say like people like me, entre- like entrepreneurial people, we entre- like entrepreneurial people, we entre- like entrepreneurial people, we are the the skill set that that is are the the skill set that that is are the the skill set that that is required to start stuff is the exact required to start stuff is the exact required to start stuff is the exact opposite typically of a process creating opposite typically of a process creating opposite typically of a process creating skill set. skill set. skill set. >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, interesting. >> I work my ass off at creating and >> I work my ass off at creating and >> I work my ass off at creating and sticking to processes, but it does not sticking to processes, but it does not sticking to processes, but it does not come natural. But I'll tell you one that come natural. But I'll tell you one that come natural. But I'll tell you one that has made a huge difference. Every day at has made a huge difference. Every day at has made a huge difference. Every day at 300 p.m. the company stops for 10 300 p.m. the company stops for 10 300 p.m. the company stops for 10 minutes and we clean we clean the office minutes and we clean we clean the office minutes and we clean we clean the office because I cannot stand clutter at our because I cannot stand clutter at our because I cannot stand clutter at our office. And the the what I'm trying to office. And the the what I'm trying to office. And the the what I'm trying to convince my staff and it's actually convince my staff and it's actually convince my staff and it's actually working. They're doing this at their working. They're doing this at their working. They're doing this at their homes and everything which is we're just homes and everything which is we're just homes and everything which is we're just trying to like uh sweat the small stuff trying to like uh sweat the small stuff trying to like uh sweat the small stuff and do the small things really nicely and do the small things really nicely and do the small things really nicely and it starts with like cleaning your and it starts with like cleaning your and it starts with like cleaning your bed or making your bed. bed or making your bed. bed or making your bed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh and so I'm really proud of that. >> Uh and so I'm really proud of that. >> Uh and so I'm really proud of that. >> It's and I'm sure you're giving everyone >> It's and I'm sure you're giving everyone >> It's and I'm sure you're giving everyone this sense of accomplishment, right? this sense of accomplishment, right? this sense of accomplishment, right? like like cleaning up the clutter is not like like cleaning up the clutter is not like like cleaning up the clutter is not that big an accomplishment, but to come that big an accomplishment, but to come that big an accomplishment, but to come together and have someone say like this together and have someone say like this together and have someone say like this is who we are. This is how we prove to is who we are. This is how we prove to is who we are. This is how we prove to ourselves what what we stand for. That's ourselves what what we stand for. That's ourselves what what we stand for. That's enormously rewarding. enormously rewarding. enormously rewarding. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and it actually gets to this other >> And and it actually gets to this other >> And and it actually gets to this other thing that really interesting about thing that really interesting about thing that really interesting about psychology, which is which is what's psychology, which is which is what's psychology, which is which is what's known as revealed versus stated known as revealed versus stated known as revealed versus stated preferences. That often times when you preferences. That often times when you preferences. That often times when you ask people, do you do you want to ask people, do you do you want to ask people, do you do you want to exercise every day? They'll say, yes, I exercise every day? They'll say, yes, I exercise every day? They'll say, yes, I want to exercise every day. It's really want to exercise every day. It's really want to exercise every day. It's really important to me. But when we look at important to me. But when we look at important to me. But when we look at their behavior, they exercise like twice their behavior, they exercise like twice their behavior, they exercise like twice a week, right? So the revealed a week, right? So the revealed a week, right? So the revealed preference is actually different from preference is actually different from preference is actually different from the stated preference. And our brain the stated preference. And our brain the stated preference. And our brain pays attention to that. Our brain pays attention to that. Our brain pays attention to that. Our brain actually is kind of skeptical of our actually is kind of skeptical of our actually is kind of skeptical of our stated preferences, but it pays stated preferences, but it pays stated preferences, but it pays attention to how we behave to figure out attention to how we behave to figure out attention to how we behave to figure out who we really are. And so this act of who we really are. And so this act of who we really are. And so this act of cleaning up every day at 3:00. And I'm cleaning up every day at 3:00. And I'm cleaning up every day at 3:00. And I'm sure, look, you could go a day without sure, look, you could go a day without sure, look, you could go a day without cleaning at 3 and the company's not cleaning at 3 and the company's not cleaning at 3 and the company's not going to fall apart, right? But it's not going to fall apart, right? But it's not going to fall apart, right? But it's not about organizing the clutter. It's about about organizing the clutter. It's about about organizing the clutter. It's about revealing to ourselves, proving to revealing to ourselves, proving to revealing to ourselves, proving to ourselves that we are the kinds of ourselves that we are the kinds of ourselves that we are the kinds of people who do this. We are the kinds of people who do this. We are the kinds of people who do this. We are the kinds of people who we we say we are. That's people who we we say we are. That's people who we we say we are. That's really powerful. really powerful. really powerful. All right. So, this episode is all about All right. So, this episode is all about All right. So, this episode is all about excellence. A while back, I shared my excellence. A while back, I shared my excellence. A while back, I shared my personal framework for building personal framework for building personal framework for building excellence in my own life, and the team excellence in my own life, and the team excellence in my own life, and the team at HubSpot turned it into a 30-day at HubSpot turned it into a 30-day at HubSpot turned it into a 30-day operating system that you can check out operating system that you can check out operating system that you can check out right now. right now. right now. It breaks down the systems that have It breaks down the systems that have It breaks down the systems that have took me 10 years to figure out and shows took me 10 years to figure out and shows took me 10 years to figure out and shows how exactly I use them day-to-day. These how exactly I use them day-to-day. These how exactly I use them day-to-day. These are systems that genuinely changed my are systems that genuinely changed my are systems that genuinely changed my life. So, if you want to build a good life. So, if you want to build a good life. So, if you want to build a good life, scan the QR code or click the link life, scan the QR code or click the link life, scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Now, let's get back in the description. Now, let's get back in the description. Now, let's get back to the show. to the show. to the show. How many copies did The Power of Habit How many copies did The Power of Habit How many copies did The Power of Habit sell? sell? sell? >> Gosh, worldwide, it's sold over 10 >> Gosh, worldwide, it's sold over 10 >> Gosh, worldwide, it's sold over 10 million now. So, it's crazy. million now. So, it's crazy. million now. So, it's crazy. >> It's been great. Yeah. And the best part >> It's been great. Yeah. And the best part >> It's been great. Yeah. And the best part is just getting emails from folks like is just getting emails from folks like is just getting emails from folks like like with stories like yours that say, like with stories like yours that say, like with stories like yours that say, you know, I struggled with drinking for you know, I struggled with drinking for you know, I struggled with drinking for years and then I finally figured out how years and then I finally figured out how years and then I finally figured out how to how to think about the cues and to how to think about the cues and to how to think about the cues and rewards to make this easier to overcome. rewards to make this easier to overcome. rewards to make this easier to overcome. That's what's really meaningful. That's what's really meaningful. That's what's really meaningful. >> That's crazy, man. That's a lot of >> That's crazy, man. That's a lot of >> That's crazy, man. That's a lot of copies. Did you uh And where were you copies. Did you uh And where were you copies. Did you uh And where were you before? You were a reporter. before? You were a reporter. before? You were a reporter. >> Yeah, so I I was a reporter for the New >> Yeah, so I I was a reporter for the New >> Yeah, so I I was a reporter for the New York Times. I was and in fact I I York Times. I was and in fact I I York Times. I was and in fact I I continued being a reporter for the New continued being a reporter for the New continued being a reporter for the New York Times for a number of years after York Times for a number of years after York Times for a number of years after the book came out. it. Weirdly, I the book came out. it. Weirdly, I the book came out. it. Weirdly, I actually the same year that The Power of actually the same year that The Power of actually the same year that The Power of Habit came out, I won a Pulitzer Prize Habit came out, I won a Pulitzer Prize Habit came out, I won a Pulitzer Prize for um for a series I had done at the for um for a series I had done at the for um for a series I had done at the New York Times. And so 2013 was like New York Times. And so 2013 was like New York Times. And so 2013 was like kind of a crazy year. Was that the Apple kind of a crazy year. Was that the Apple kind of a crazy year. Was that the Apple the Apple series? the Apple series? the Apple series? >> That was the Apple series. Yeah. Yeah, >> That was the Apple series. Yeah. Yeah, >> That was the Apple series. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The Apple series. And one of exactly. The Apple series. And one of exactly. The Apple series. And one of the things I learned I I was talking to the things I learned I I was talking to the things I learned I I was talking to Jim Collins, the guy who wrote Good to Jim Collins, the guy who wrote Good to Jim Collins, the guy who wrote Good to Great last night um on stage cuz he has Great last night um on stage cuz he has Great last night um on stage cuz he has a new book out and he talked about the a new book out and he talked about the a new book out and he talked about the the bewildering fog of success. And that the bewildering fog of success. And that the bewildering fog of success. And that year, 2013, was exactly that for me. It year, 2013, was exactly that for me. It year, 2013, was exactly that for me. It like on paper, it was the best year of like on paper, it was the best year of like on paper, it was the best year of my life. I had a best-selling book. I my life. I had a best-selling book. I my life. I had a best-selling book. I won a Pulitzer Prize. In reality, it was won a Pulitzer Prize. In reality, it was won a Pulitzer Prize. In reality, it was like the hardest year of my life because like the hardest year of my life because like the hardest year of my life because and and you know this, when when success and and you know this, when when success and and you know this, when when success comes, it can kind of catch you off comes, it can kind of catch you off comes, it can kind of catch you off guard with all of its demands and and guard with all of its demands and and guard with all of its demands and and emotions. And so that was that was like emotions. And so that was that was like emotions. And so that was that was like a big year, but also in retrospect, a a big year, but also in retrospect, a a big year, but also in retrospect, a tough year. and and since then I've tough year. and and since then I've tough year. and and since then I've written a couple more books including written a couple more books including written a couple more books including Super Communicators which which you'd Super Communicators which which you'd Super Communicators which which you'd mentioned and now I write for the for mentioned and now I write for the for mentioned and now I write for the for the New Yorker magazine. the New Yorker magazine. the New Yorker magazine. >> I remember I felt uh defensive of you >> I remember I felt uh defensive of you >> I remember I felt uh defensive of you when Atomic Habits came out because you when Atomic Habits came out because you when Atomic Habits came out because you were my guy and I'm friends with James. were my guy and I'm friends with James. were my guy and I'm friends with James. Um and I'm sure you are too, but when I Um and I'm sure you are too, but when I Um and I'm sure you are too, but when I saw Atomic Habits come out, I was like, saw Atomic Habits come out, I was like, saw Atomic Habits come out, I was like, but I already read the original. This is but I already read the original. This is but I already read the original. This is just just just like like like >> that's very nice of you. But the truth >> that's very nice of you. But the truth >> that's very nice of you. But the truth is as whatever it takes to get it into is as whatever it takes to get it into is as whatever it takes to get it into people's hands, like it feels so good to people's hands, like it feels so good to people's hands, like it feels so good to be able to be the master of your own be able to be the master of your own be able to be the master of your own habits. It feels so good to be the habits. It feels so good to be the habits. It feels so good to be the person you want to be. And so whatever person you want to be. And so whatever person you want to be. And so whatever it takes to like to get that to get that it takes to like to get that to get that it takes to like to get that to get that empowerment into people's lives, I am empowerment into people's lives, I am empowerment into people's lives, I am all for that. So like a lot of our all for that. So like a lot of our all for that. So like a lot of our listeners are like uh type A go-getters listeners are like uh type A go-getters listeners are like uh type A go-getters who are probably a little neurotic at who are probably a little neurotic at who are probably a little neurotic at times. And maybe they're like me where times. And maybe they're like me where times. And maybe they're like me where like I'm pretty like emotional and react like I'm pretty like emotional and react like I'm pretty like emotional and react I I react to things fast which is kind I I react to things fast which is kind I I react to things fast which is kind of silly. Is there a way that you have of silly. Is there a way that you have of silly. Is there a way that you have seen a lot of these like type A people seen a lot of these like type A people seen a lot of these like type A people use the power of habit at work or in use the power of habit at work or in use the power of habit at work or in their career to be more productive? their career to be more productive? their career to be more productive? >> Yeah. Abs. You know what I hear a lot >> Yeah. Abs. You know what I hear a lot >> Yeah. Abs. You know what I hear a lot from from executives is is is them from from executives is is is them from from executives is is is them saying, "Look, I was in this bad pattern saying, "Look, I was in this bad pattern saying, "Look, I was in this bad pattern that I didn't even recognize was a that I didn't even recognize was a that I didn't even recognize was a pattern, which is I knew I had to write pattern, which is I knew I had to write pattern, which is I knew I had to write an email, right? It was a tough email. I an email, right? It was a tough email. I an email, right? It was a tough email. I didn't I didn't want to like I didn't didn't I didn't want to like I didn't didn't I didn't want to like I didn't want to deal with a question that the want to deal with a question that the want to deal with a question that the email was asking. I knew I might email was asking. I knew I might email was asking. I knew I might disappoint someone." And and so I would disappoint someone." And and so I would disappoint someone." And and so I would put it off. I would basically, you know, put it off. I would basically, you know, put it off. I would basically, you know, it' be in my inbox. I would say, "I'm it' be in my inbox. I would say, "I'm it' be in my inbox. I would say, "I'm going to deal with this later." And going to deal with this later." And going to deal with this later." And hours would go by, days would go by. And hours would go by, days would go by. And hours would go by, days would go by. And what's happening during that period is what's happening during that period is what's happening during that period is that there is a cognitive load, a that there is a cognitive load, a that there is a cognitive load, a cognitive burden associated with that cognitive burden associated with that cognitive burden associated with that email going unanswered, right? There's email going unanswered, right? There's email going unanswered, right? There's some part of your brain that says like, some part of your brain that says like, some part of your brain that says like, look, you've got this task you need to look, you've got this task you need to look, you've got this task you need to get done and it's an unpleasant task. get done and it's an unpleasant task. get done and it's an unpleasant task. You don't like thinking about it. You You don't like thinking about it. You You don't like thinking about it. You like shying away from it. But the more like shying away from it. But the more like shying away from it. But the more you shy away from it, the more it you shy away from it, the more it you shy away from it, the more it becomes like this monster in your head. becomes like this monster in your head. becomes like this monster in your head. >> And sometimes it's the smallest stuff. >> And sometimes it's the smallest stuff. >> And sometimes it's the smallest stuff. >> Totally. And what we know is that if you >> Totally. And what we know is that if you >> Totally. And what we know is that if you build this habit that your immediate build this habit that your immediate build this habit that your immediate response is to hit reply and just deal response is to hit reply and just deal response is to hit reply and just deal with it right away, the benefits of that with it right away, the benefits of that with it right away, the benefits of that are huge. Right now, you might not write are huge. Right now, you might not write are huge. Right now, you might not write the most polished email on the face of the most polished email on the face of the most polished email on the face of the planet, right? You might not have the planet, right? You might not have the planet, right? You might not have all the time to think it through. So, all the time to think it through. So, all the time to think it through. So, you have to you have to question, is you have to you have to question, is you have to you have to question, is this something I can respond to right this something I can respond to right this something I can respond to right away? But when we get it off our plate, away? But when we get it off our plate, away? But when we get it off our plate, what we're doing is we're freeing up our what we're doing is we're freeing up our what we're doing is we're freeing up our brain to think about other things. Our brain to think about other things. Our brain to think about other things. Our brain is constantly keeping track of the brain is constantly keeping track of the brain is constantly keeping track of the thousands of things that might be thousands of things that might be thousands of things that might be threats or might be opportunities or threats or might be opportunities or threats or might be opportunities or might be crises. And the more that we might be crises. And the more that we might be crises. And the more that we clear our brain and give it space to clear our brain and give it space to clear our brain and give it space to think about the good stuff, the think about the good stuff, the think about the good stuff, the opportunities, the ways to move forward, opportunities, the ways to move forward, opportunities, the ways to move forward, the new ideas, the more we're empowering the new ideas, the more we're empowering the new ideas, the more we're empowering ourselves to actually get things done. ourselves to actually get things done. ourselves to actually get things done. >> So, I have, as we speak, I have 349 >> So, I have, as we speak, I have 349 >> So, I have, as we speak, I have 349 unread text messages. unread text messages. unread text messages. >> Okay? and I have a shitload of >> Okay? and I have a shitload of >> Okay? and I have a shitload of voicemails, tons of Twitter and voicemails, tons of Twitter and voicemails, tons of Twitter and Instagram DMs. The amount of inbound and Instagram DMs. The amount of inbound and Instagram DMs. The amount of inbound and notifications and partially because I'm notifications and partially because I'm notifications and partially because I'm on a podcast that has a lot of on a podcast that has a lot of on a podcast that has a lot of listeners, but even if you're not that, listeners, but even if you're not that, listeners, but even if you're not that, the amount of inbound notifications that the amount of inbound notifications that the amount of inbound notifications that people get, it's unsustainable. people get, it's unsustainable. people get, it's unsustainable. >> So, so just because you get an email >> So, so just because you get an email >> So, so just because you get an email like like that we have this instinct to like like that we have this instinct to like like that we have this instinct to hit reply does not mean you have to hit reply does not mean you have to hit reply does not mean you have to reply, right? Because another habit reply, right? Because another habit reply, right? Because another habit that's equally important is just to that's equally important is just to that's equally important is just to ignore. Like the fact that somebody ignore. Like the fact that somebody ignore. Like the fact that somebody sends me an email, that does not create sends me an email, that does not create sends me an email, that does not create an obligation on my to-do list to an obligation on my to-do list to an obligation on my to-do list to respond to them. What it does is it respond to them. What it does is it respond to them. What it does is it gives me the option to kind of choose, gives me the option to kind of choose, gives me the option to kind of choose, do I want to respond? And so one of the do I want to respond? And so one of the do I want to respond? And so one of the things that I do cuz very similarly, things that I do cuz very similarly, things that I do cuz very similarly, there's just an overwhelming amount of there's just an overwhelming amount of there's just an overwhelming amount of stuff that comes in. I try and be really stuff that comes in. I try and be really stuff that comes in. I try and be really disciplined and my my first habit, my disciplined and my my first habit, my disciplined and my my first habit, my first instinct is just to hit delete. first instinct is just to hit delete. first instinct is just to hit delete. like when something and oftentimes like when something and oftentimes like when something and oftentimes someone will send me a really someone will send me a really someone will send me a really interesting article or there will be interesting article or there will be interesting article or there will be something I'm like, "Oh man, I should something I'm like, "Oh man, I should something I'm like, "Oh man, I should really go back and read that. That's really go back and read that. That's really go back and read that. That's really I want to save that for later." really I want to save that for later." really I want to save that for later." And instead what I do is I hit delete And instead what I do is I hit delete And instead what I do is I hit delete because I know I'm never going to go because I know I'm never going to go because I know I'm never going to go back and read it, right? And I don't back and read it, right? And I don't back and read it, right? And I don't think that we have to get to inbox zero. think that we have to get to inbox zero. think that we have to get to inbox zero. I don't think we have to interact with I don't think we have to interact with I don't think we have to interact with every single thing that's sent to us. I every single thing that's sent to us. I every single thing that's sent to us. I think what we should have is a habit to think what we should have is a habit to think what we should have is a habit to graze over it and to forgive ourselves graze over it and to forgive ourselves graze over it and to forgive ourselves for hitting delete because ultimately for hitting delete because ultimately for hitting delete because ultimately the most important choice that we make the most important choice that we make the most important choice that we make is where to spend our attention. And if is where to spend our attention. And if is where to spend our attention. And if we're making that choice based on the we're making that choice based on the we're making that choice based on the whims of other people because they send whims of other people because they send whims of other people because they send us an email or a DM, then we're not us an email or a DM, then we're not us an email or a DM, then we're not actually making a choice. We're actually making a choice. We're actually making a choice. We're abdicating that responsibility. It's abdicating that responsibility. It's abdicating that responsibility. It's sort of like um I think we had uh Tim sort of like um I think we had uh Tim sort of like um I think we had uh Tim Ferrris on and people make fun of Tim Ferrris on and people make fun of Tim Ferrris on and people make fun of Tim Ferrris because he they're like, "Dude, Ferrris because he they're like, "Dude, Ferrris because he they're like, "Dude, you're working more than four hours a you're working more than four hours a you're working more than four hours a week, you know what I mean?" And so he week, you know what I mean?" And so he week, you know what I mean?" And so he sort of like kind of created his own sort of like kind of created his own sort of like kind of created his own little trap. When you have bad habits in little trap. When you have bad habits in little trap. When you have bad habits in your life, I have to imagine that people your life, I have to imagine that people your life, I have to imagine that people like your buddies mess with you. They're like your buddies mess with you. They're like your buddies mess with you. They're like, like, like, >> "Oh no, my wife is is merciless." >> "Oh no, my wife is is merciless." >> "Oh no, my wife is is merciless." What bad habits do you have still that What bad habits do you have still that What bad habits do you have still that you have been unable to break? you have been unable to break? you have been unable to break? >> So here's the thing about habits is in >> So here's the thing about habits is in >> So here's the thing about habits is in our brain there's no such thing as a bad our brain there's no such thing as a bad our brain there's no such thing as a bad habit or a good habit. Right? The basil habit or a good habit. Right? The basil habit or a good habit. Right? The basil ganglia is this part of our brain that ganglia is this part of our brain that ganglia is this part of our brain that creates habits and it actually evolved creates habits and it actually evolved creates habits and it actually evolved just to do that. And every animal on just to do that. And every animal on just to do that. And every animal on earth actually has a basil ganglia. If earth actually has a basil ganglia. If earth actually has a basil ganglia. If we couldn't form habits, we would not we couldn't form habits, we would not we couldn't form habits, we would not evolve because it we would have to spend evolve because it we would have to spend evolve because it we would have to spend too much time thinking about whether we too much time thinking about whether we too much time thinking about whether we pick up the rock or the apple and take a pick up the rock or the apple and take a pick up the rock or the apple and take a bite out of it. So habits are really bite out of it. So habits are really bite out of it. So habits are really really important. But to our brain, our really important. But to our brain, our really important. But to our brain, our brain just says, "Look, if there's a brain just says, "Look, if there's a brain just says, "Look, if there's a pattern of a cue, a routine, and a pattern of a cue, a routine, and a pattern of a cue, a routine, and a reward, I'm going to make that easier reward, I'm going to make that easier reward, I'm going to make that easier and easier to do." It doesn't say, "This and easier to do." It doesn't say, "This and easier to do." It doesn't say, "This is a good habit or this is a bad habit." is a good habit or this is a bad habit." is a good habit or this is a bad habit." It's up to us to decide which habits are It's up to us to decide which habits are It's up to us to decide which habits are good and which are bad. Which ones we good and which are bad. Which ones we good and which are bad. Which ones we want to encourage and discourage. And want to encourage and discourage. And want to encourage and discourage. And so, I would say I have lots of bad so, I would say I have lots of bad so, I would say I have lots of bad habits, right? Things that But they're habits, right? Things that But they're habits, right? Things that But they're bad habits that I choose. Like, I like bad habits that I choose. Like, I like bad habits that I choose. Like, I like to have once or twice a week. I like to to have once or twice a week. I like to to have once or twice a week. I like to have a cocktail when I come home from have a cocktail when I come home from have a cocktail when I come home from work, right? And that in some people's work, right? And that in some people's work, right? And that in some people's eyes could be a bad habit. But for me, eyes could be a bad habit. But for me, eyes could be a bad habit. But for me, it's just a nice way of signaling to it's just a nice way of signaling to it's just a nice way of signaling to myself that I can relax. Some people myself that I can relax. Some people myself that I can relax. Some people might see that as a bad habit, but for might see that as a bad habit, but for might see that as a bad habit, but for me, it speaks to like how I like what I me, it speaks to like how I like what I me, it speaks to like how I like what I like about life. So, I would say the like about life. So, I would say the like about life. So, I would say the thing that's happened to me as a as a thing that's happened to me as a as a thing that's happened to me as a as a product of my research is that I've product of my research is that I've product of my research is that I've recognized that you get to choose your recognized that you get to choose your recognized that you get to choose your habits. And just because other people habits. And just because other people habits. And just because other people think they're good or bad, that does not think they're good or bad, that does not think they're good or bad, that does not mean that they have to be good or bad mean that they have to be good or bad mean that they have to be good or bad for you. The key is to have agency, to for you. The key is to have agency, to for you. The key is to have agency, to have control over your life. And the way have control over your life. And the way have control over your life. And the way we do that is by not just focusing on we do that is by not just focusing on we do that is by not just focusing on the behavior, but by looking for these the behavior, but by looking for these the behavior, but by looking for these cues and these rewards, looking for cues and these rewards, looking for cues and these rewards, looking for these leverage points that we can use to these leverage points that we can use to these leverage points that we can use to change and become the person we want to change and become the person we want to change and become the person we want to be. And frankly, it's challenging. It's be. And frankly, it's challenging. It's be. And frankly, it's challenging. It's challenging to decide which is the challenging to decide which is the challenging to decide which is the thing. thing. thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think that I I call myself like a high >> I think that I I call myself like a high >> I think that I I call myself like a high functioning person. Like I I think I functioning person. Like I I think I functioning person. Like I I think I have a lot of horsepower and the have a lot of horsepower and the have a lot of horsepower and the strength of that is that I can run strength of that is that I can run strength of that is that I can run through a wall and the weakness of that through a wall and the weakness of that through a wall and the weakness of that is that I can run through a wall because is that I can run through a wall because is that I can run through a wall because >> I have this thing called a 5-year diary >> I have this thing called a 5-year diary >> I have this thing called a 5-year diary where every year on the same day every where every year on the same day every where every year on the same day every day on a on a page I write how I feel day on a on a page I write how I feel day on a on a page I write how I feel that day and then the the next year I that day and then the the next year I that day and then the the next year I see the same page so I can like see how see the same page so I can like see how see the same page so I can like see how I'm feeling a year prior. I I was joking I'm feeling a year prior. I I was joking I'm feeling a year prior. I I was joking with Sean, but I my uh co-host on this with Sean, but I my uh co-host on this with Sean, but I my uh co-host on this podcast. I was like, "Dude, I've been podcast. I was like, "Dude, I've been podcast. I was like, "Dude, I've been com I wrote about this thing in my com I wrote about this thing in my com I wrote about this thing in my journal this day last year, and I journal this day last year, and I journal this day last year, and I complained about the same problem. I'm complained about the same problem. I'm complained about the same problem. I'm like, if I'm supposed to be this high like, if I'm supposed to be this high like, if I'm supposed to be this high functioning person that like changes or functioning person that like changes or functioning person that like changes or adapts and grows, I'm sure not doing it. adapts and grows, I'm sure not doing it. adapts and grows, I'm sure not doing it. What the hell? Why can't I change?" And What the hell? Why can't I change?" And What the hell? Why can't I change?" And so, it is sort of interesting that you so, it is sort of interesting that you so, it is sort of interesting that you become like a prisoner of habits. And become like a prisoner of habits. And become like a prisoner of habits. And what you said was cool because you do what you said was cool because you do what you said was cool because you do want to become this person who can want to become this person who can want to become this person who can change their life. But the fact is my change their life. But the fact is my change their life. But the fact is my opinion is most people don't change. And opinion is most people don't change. And opinion is most people don't change. And I think it's really because I think it's I think it's really because I think it's I think it's really because I think it's like almost impossible to change. like almost impossible to change. like almost impossible to change. >> Well, and what what I hear in that that >> Well, and what what I hear in that that >> Well, and what what I hear in that that diary that you you mentioned is what's diary that you you mentioned is what's diary that you you mentioned is what's known as a cognitive routine. So what's known as a cognitive routine. So what's known as a cognitive routine. So what's what are you really doing when you write what are you really doing when you write what are you really doing when you write that one line? Because writing one line that one line? Because writing one line that one line? Because writing one line is not like it's not like life-changing, is not like it's not like life-changing, is not like it's not like life-changing, right? To like sit down and write like a right? To like sit down and write like a right? To like sit down and write like a oneliner about how you feel about your oneliner about how you feel about your oneliner about how you feel about your day. But what you are doing is you're day. But what you are doing is you're day. But what you are doing is you're creating a mental habit for yourself. creating a mental habit for yourself. creating a mental habit for yourself. And the most important habits tend to be And the most important habits tend to be And the most important habits tend to be mental habits. In psychology, they're mental habits. In psychology, they're mental habits. In psychology, they're known as cognitive routines. And their known as cognitive routines. And their known as cognitive routines. And their job is to allow us to think more deeply job is to allow us to think more deeply job is to allow us to think more deeply when thinking deeply is hardest. Right? when thinking deeply is hardest. Right? when thinking deeply is hardest. Right? When we're feeling stressed out or when When we're feeling stressed out or when When we're feeling stressed out or when we're feeling overwhelmed or when we we're feeling overwhelmed or when we we're feeling overwhelmed or when we don't have that much time, we only have don't have that much time, we only have don't have that much time, we only have time to write one line in a little time to write one line in a little time to write one line in a little diary. What that cognitive routine does, diary. What that cognitive routine does, diary. What that cognitive routine does, that mental habit, is it causes you to that mental habit, is it causes you to that mental habit, is it causes you to pause and look at the previous year. And pause and look at the previous year. And pause and look at the previous year. And the fact that you say to yourself, the fact that you say to yourself, the fact that you say to yourself, "Okay, look, I'm stuck in the same rut "Okay, look, I'm stuck in the same rut "Okay, look, I'm stuck in the same rut that I was a year ago." And actually, I that I was a year ago." And actually, I that I was a year ago." And actually, I didn't even really recognize that. Or if didn't even really recognize that. Or if didn't even really recognize that. Or if I did recognize it, it's just I wasn't I did recognize it, it's just I wasn't I did recognize it, it's just I wasn't paying attention to it. But this is paying attention to it. But this is paying attention to it. But this is something that's forcing me to think something that's forcing me to think something that's forcing me to think about this rut, to ask myself like, why about this rut, to ask myself like, why about this rut, to ask myself like, why am I in this rut? How do I get out of am I in this rut? How do I get out of am I in this rut? How do I get out of this rut? Do I really care about this this rut? Do I really care about this this rut? Do I really care about this rut that much? Those cognitive routines, rut that much? Those cognitive routines, rut that much? Those cognitive routines, these mental habits that we build for these mental habits that we build for these mental habits that we build for ourselves are really, really powerful ourselves are really, really powerful ourselves are really, really powerful because they allow us to do the thing because they allow us to do the thing because they allow us to do the thing that you just mentioned, which is make that you just mentioned, which is make that you just mentioned, which is make decisions without being exhausted. And decisions without being exhausted. And decisions without being exhausted. And one of the most powerful is when I come one of the most powerful is when I come one of the most powerful is when I come home from work, I describe my day in home from work, I describe my day in home from work, I describe my day in like excruciating detail to my wife and like excruciating detail to my wife and like excruciating detail to my wife and she does not really care about my day. she does not really care about my day. she does not really care about my day. Like she doesn't want to know like all Like she doesn't want to know like all Like she doesn't want to know like all the specifics of the meeting I was the specifics of the meeting I was the specifics of the meeting I was sitting through. But I'm not really sitting through. But I'm not really sitting through. But I'm not really doing it for her. I'm doing it for me. doing it for her. I'm doing it for me. doing it for her. I'm doing it for me. this is my cognitive routine to help me this is my cognitive routine to help me this is my cognitive routine to help me review my day and figure out what I did review my day and figure out what I did review my day and figure out what I did well and what I did poorly. And building well and what I did poorly. And building well and what I did poorly. And building those cognitive routines, those mental those cognitive routines, those mental those cognitive routines, those mental habits, that is how we end up becoming habits, that is how we end up becoming habits, that is how we end up becoming successful because it's it's those small successful because it's it's those small successful because it's it's those small little habits that determine if we're little habits that determine if we're little habits that determine if we're using our attention wisely or not. using our attention wisely or not. using our attention wisely or not. >> You have this book called Super >> You have this book called Super >> You have this book called Super Communicators. I haven't read it yet, Communicators. I haven't read it yet, Communicators. I haven't read it yet, but I read a great article on it. And but I read a great article on it. And but I read a great article on it. And when I was younger, I read this book when I was younger, I read this book when I was younger, I read this book called How to Win Friends and Influence called How to Win Friends and Influence called How to Win Friends and Influence People. People. People. >> Yeah. Dale Carnegie. >> Yeah. Dale Carnegie. >> Yeah. Dale Carnegie. >> Yeah. It changed my life. I'm not >> Yeah. It changed my life. I'm not >> Yeah. It changed my life. I'm not naturally like a very good naturally like a very good naturally like a very good conversationalist or a good people conversationalist or a good people conversationalist or a good people person. My my family calls me a little person. My my family calls me a little person. My my family calls me a little neurospicy, you know. I had to neurospicy, you know. I had to neurospicy, you know. I had to I I kind of had to learn a little bit I I kind of had to learn a little bit I I kind of had to learn a little bit like I had to like read a few playbooks like I had to like read a few playbooks like I had to like read a few playbooks on how to like have like normal on how to like have like normal on how to like have like normal interactions. And so Dale Carnegie kind interactions. And so Dale Carnegie kind interactions. And so Dale Carnegie kind of changed my life. And there was a of changed my life. And there was a of changed my life. And there was a handful of takeaways from that book. And handful of takeaways from that book. And handful of takeaways from that book. And one of the books was basically if you one of the books was basically if you one of the books was basically if you have a conversation with someone, if you have a conversation with someone, if you have a conversation with someone, if you let them do most all the talking and you let them do most all the talking and you let them do most all the talking and you ask them all about their lives and their ask them all about their lives and their ask them all about their lives and their themselves, uh they're going to think themselves, uh they're going to think themselves, uh they're going to think that it's the greatest conversation that it's the greatest conversation that it's the greatest conversation they've ever had. they've ever had. they've ever had. >> And your job uh your book super >> And your job uh your book super >> And your job uh your book super communicators, it did a good I I believe communicators, it did a good I I believe communicators, it did a good I I believe the premise of the book is like if you the premise of the book is like if you the premise of the book is like if you ask not only if you but you you took a ask not only if you but you you took a ask not only if you but you you took a step further. If you ask more questions step further. If you ask more questions step further. If you ask more questions but also ask these I don't know you give but also ask these I don't know you give but also ask these I don't know you give some questions but you give like a some questions but you give like a some questions but you give like a framework. If you ask different types of framework. If you ask different types of framework. If you ask different types of questions that fall under a bucket that questions that fall under a bucket that questions that fall under a bucket that I I want you to tell me, you will get I I want you to tell me, you will get I I want you to tell me, you will get people to open up more. Is that right? people to open up more. Is that right? people to open up more. Is that right? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, so >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, so >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, so one of the things that we know is first one of the things that we know is first one of the things that we know is first of all, we are all super communicators of all, we are all super communicators of all, we are all super communicators at one time or another, right? We we all at one time or another, right? We we all at one time or another, right? We we all know like the right thing to say to a know like the right thing to say to a know like the right thing to say to a friend to make them feel better or or friend to make them feel better or or friend to make them feel better or or sometimes you walk into a meeting and sometimes you walk into a meeting and sometimes you walk into a meeting and you just like you know exactly what to you just like you know exactly what to you just like you know exactly what to say to get everyone on your side. But say to get everyone on your side. But say to get everyone on your side. But there are some people who are consistent there are some people who are consistent there are some people who are consistent supercommunicators, people who can seem supercommunicators, people who can seem supercommunicators, people who can seem to connect with anyone any time. And the to connect with anyone any time. And the to connect with anyone any time. And the difference between them and everyone difference between them and everyone difference between them and everyone else is not this inborn like capacity. else is not this inborn like capacity. else is not this inborn like capacity. It's not that they like are born with a It's not that they like are born with a It's not that they like are born with a gift of gab. It's that they think about gift of gab. It's that they think about gift of gab. It's that they think about communication a little bit more and they communication a little bit more and they communication a little bit more and they recognize that communication is just a recognize that communication is just a recognize that communication is just a set of very simple skills that if you set of very simple skills that if you set of very simple skills that if you practice them, they become habits. And practice them, they become habits. And practice them, they become habits. And when when you start practicing them and when when you start practicing them and when when you start practicing them and using them, you can kind of treat using them, you can kind of treat using them, you can kind of treat everyone like your best friend. And they everyone like your best friend. And they everyone like your best friend. And they they'll all respond the same way. And they'll all respond the same way. And they'll all respond the same way. And one of those skills is asking questions. one of those skills is asking questions. one of those skills is asking questions. Consistent super commmunicators ask 10 Consistent super commmunicators ask 10 Consistent super commmunicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the to 20 times as many questions as the to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And some of those average person. And some of those average person. And some of those questions are like just invitations questions are like just invitations questions are like just invitations like, "Oh, what' you think about that?" like, "Oh, what' you think about that?" like, "Oh, what' you think about that?" Or, "Did you see that movie?" Like, it's Or, "Did you see that movie?" Like, it's Or, "Did you see that movie?" Like, it's invitations into the conversation. But invitations into the conversation. But invitations into the conversation. But some of them are what are known within some of them are what are known within some of them are what are known within psychology as deep questions. And a deep psychology as deep questions. And a deep psychology as deep questions. And a deep question is something that asks me about question is something that asks me about question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my my values or my beliefs or my my values or my beliefs or my experiences. And that can sound a little experiences. And that can sound a little experiences. And that can sound a little bit intimidating, but it's as simple as bit intimidating, but it's as simple as bit intimidating, but it's as simple as like if you meet someone who's a doctor, like if you meet someone who's a doctor, like if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, "Oh, what hospital do instead of saying, "Oh, what hospital do instead of saying, "Oh, what hospital do you work at?" Asking them, "Oh, what you work at?" Asking them, "Oh, what you work at?" Asking them, "Oh, what made you decide to go to medical made you decide to go to medical made you decide to go to medical school?" Right? That second question, school?" Right? That second question, school?" Right? That second question, that second question is something that that second question is something that that second question is something that invites them to tell you who they really invites them to tell you who they really invites them to tell you who they really are. They got to tell you about like are. They got to tell you about like are. They got to tell you about like their dad getting sick and seeing seeing their dad getting sick and seeing seeing their dad getting sick and seeing seeing the doctors help him or that they they the doctors help him or that they they the doctors help him or that they they want to be a healer. They want to help want to be a healer. They want to help want to be a healer. They want to help their community. their community. their community. Deep questions are the things that allow Deep questions are the things that allow Deep questions are the things that allow us to really connect with other people us to really connect with other people us to really connect with other people because they invite others to tell us because they invite others to tell us because they invite others to tell us who they are. And then the best part is who they are. And then the best part is who they are. And then the best part is it's very natural to answer our own deep it's very natural to answer our own deep it's very natural to answer our own deep question oursel to say, "Oh, oh, you question oursel to say, "Oh, oh, you question oursel to say, "Oh, oh, you became a doctor cuz you saw your uncle became a doctor cuz you saw your uncle became a doctor cuz you saw your uncle get sick. That's really interesting. I get sick. That's really interesting. I get sick. That's really interesting. I became a lawyer because I had a became a lawyer because I had a became a lawyer because I had a brother-in-law who got who got arrested brother-in-law who got who got arrested brother-in-law who got who got arrested when I was a kid." And I thought that when I was a kid." And I thought that when I was a kid." And I thought that that was really like really wrong. Now that was really like really wrong. Now that was really like really wrong. Now we're having a conversation about who we we're having a conversation about who we we're having a conversation about who we are. We're connecting with each other are. We're connecting with each other are. We're connecting with each other and that means that we're going to trust and that means that we're going to trust and that means that we're going to trust each other more. We're going to like each other more. We're going to like each other more. We're going to like each other more and more importantly, each other more and more importantly, each other more and more importantly, we're going to be able to hear each we're going to be able to hear each we're going to be able to hear each other much more accurately. other much more accurately. other much more accurately. >> This sounds like such a dumb question, >> This sounds like such a dumb question, >> This sounds like such a dumb question, but why do I care? Like, why do I want but why do I care? Like, why do I want but why do I care? Like, why do I want someone to think that I'm a super someone to think that I'm a super someone to think that I'm a super connector? Like, why do I want them to connector? Like, why do I want them to connector? Like, why do I want them to open up to me? open up to me? open up to me? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, so there's a >> Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, so there's a >> Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, so there's a couple of ways. And first of all, you couple of ways. And first of all, you couple of ways. And first of all, you don't have to communicate with everyone, don't have to communicate with everyone, don't have to communicate with everyone, right? Sometimes you're going to get in right? Sometimes you're going to get in right? Sometimes you're going to get in the Uber and you just want to check your the Uber and you just want to check your the Uber and you just want to check your phone in the back of the Uber. you don't phone in the back of the Uber. you don't phone in the back of the Uber. you don't want to have a conversation with a want to have a conversation with a want to have a conversation with a driver, that's okay. You don't you don't driver, that's okay. You don't you don't driver, that's okay. You don't you don't have to have any conversation you don't have to have any conversation you don't have to have any conversation you don't want to have. But there are times that want to have. But there are times that want to have. But there are times that we do want to connect with other people. we do want to connect with other people. we do want to connect with other people. And the reasons why is because we are a And the reasons why is because we are a And the reasons why is because we are a pro-social species. The way that our pro-social species. The way that our pro-social species. The way that our brains have evolved is to push us to brains have evolved is to push us to brains have evolved is to push us to connect with other people because connect with other people because connect with other people because connecting with other people over time connecting with other people over time connecting with other people over time has been the most successful strategy in has been the most successful strategy in has been the most successful strategy in building things, building communities, building things, building communities, building things, building communities, building families, building products. building families, building products. building families, building products. And when we connect with someone else, And when we connect with someone else, And when we connect with someone else, when we communicate with them, even if when we communicate with them, even if when we communicate with them, even if we disagree with them about some pretty we disagree with them about some pretty we disagree with them about some pretty fundamental things, there is this almost fundamental things, there is this almost fundamental things, there is this almost this almost subconscious thing that this almost subconscious thing that this almost subconscious thing that happens within our brain that we're happens within our brain that we're happens within our brain that we're powerless against, which is if I feel powerless against, which is if I feel powerless against, which is if I feel connected to you, if I feel like you're connected to you, if I feel like you're connected to you, if I feel like you're listening to me and I'm listening to you listening to me and I'm listening to you listening to me and I'm listening to you and that we're actually connected and that we're actually connected and that we're actually connected somehow and and within neuroscience, somehow and and within neuroscience, somehow and and within neuroscience, this is known as neural entrainment. In this is known as neural entrainment. In this is known as neural entrainment. In that moment, we trust each other more. that moment, we trust each other more. that moment, we trust each other more. And if you think about it, trust is at And if you think about it, trust is at And if you think about it, trust is at the core of pro-sociality. I can't I the core of pro-sociality. I can't I the core of pro-sociality. I can't I can't police you all the time to see if can't police you all the time to see if can't police you all the time to see if you're if you're a threat or if you're you're if you're a threat or if you're you're if you're a threat or if you're being genuine. All I can do is try and being genuine. All I can do is try and being genuine. All I can do is try and figure out whether I can trust you figure out whether I can trust you figure out whether I can trust you enough to let you live in the in the hut enough to let you live in the in the hut enough to let you live in the in the hut next to me without without fear that next to me without without fear that next to me without without fear that you're going to come in and kill me. And you're going to come in and kill me. And you're going to come in and kill me. And the way I figure out whether I should the way I figure out whether I should the way I figure out whether I should trust you or not and like you and want trust you or not and like you and want trust you or not and like you and want to work with you is by connecting with to work with you is by connecting with to work with you is by connecting with you. Because if that connection feels you. Because if that connection feels you. Because if that connection feels genuine, then it doesn't mean I'm going genuine, then it doesn't mean I'm going genuine, then it doesn't mean I'm going to give you my life savings, but it to give you my life savings, but it to give you my life savings, but it means that for the time being, I've said means that for the time being, I've said means that for the time being, I've said this person is at least trustworthy this person is at least trustworthy this person is at least trustworthy enough that I know who they are. They enough that I know who they are. They enough that I know who they are. They know who I am. I have a hard time seeing know who I am. I have a hard time seeing know who I am. I have a hard time seeing them betraying me. And so, as a result, them betraying me. And so, as a result, them betraying me. And so, as a result, we can live side by side peacefully. And we can live side by side peacefully. And we can live side by side peacefully. And if you think about it, in business, if you think about it, in business, if you think about it, in business, trust is everything, right? M trust is everything, right? M trust is everything, right? M >> the reason you're successful in >> the reason you're successful in >> the reason you're successful in business, the reason you're successful business, the reason you're successful business, the reason you're successful in life, the reason you're successful in in life, the reason you're successful in in life, the reason you're successful in romantic relationships is because you romantic relationships is because you romantic relationships is because you figure out ways to connect with other figure out ways to connect with other figure out ways to connect with other people that are not just transactional people that are not just transactional people that are not just transactional but are real. but are real. but are real. >> That's that's fascinating. So I can ask >> That's that's fascinating. So I can ask >> That's that's fascinating. So I can ask questions that get like I think you said questions that get like I think you said questions that get like I think you said value based. What else can I do? value based. What else can I do? value based. What else can I do? >> Okay, so so the first thing is ask more >> Okay, so so the first thing is ask more >> Okay, so so the first thing is ask more questions, right? Ask these deep questions, right? Ask these deep questions, right? Ask these deep questions. The second thing is that you questions. The second thing is that you questions. The second thing is that you need to be having the same kind of need to be having the same kind of need to be having the same kind of conversation as the person you're conversation as the person you're conversation as the person you're talking to. And to explain this, I'll talking to. And to explain this, I'll talking to. And to explain this, I'll sort of give you an example. So, when I sort of give you an example. So, when I sort of give you an example. So, when I started writing super communicators, one started writing super communicators, one started writing super communicators, one of the reasons why was because I had of the reasons why was because I had of the reasons why was because I had fallen into this bad pattern where I'd fallen into this bad pattern where I'd fallen into this bad pattern where I'd come home from work and I'd start come home from work and I'd start come home from work and I'd start complaining about my day and tell my complaining about my day and tell my complaining about my day and tell my wife, you know, like my co-workers don't wife, you know, like my co-workers don't wife, you know, like my co-workers don't appreciate me and my boss doesn't appreciate me and my boss doesn't appreciate me and my boss doesn't realize what a genius I am. And she realize what a genius I am. And she realize what a genius I am. And she would give me some good advice. She would give me some good advice. She would give me some good advice. She would say something like, why don't you would say something like, why don't you would say something like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys take your boss out to lunch and you guys take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other a little bit can get to know each other a little bit can get to know each other a little bit better. But instead of being able to better. But instead of being able to better. But instead of being able to hear her advice, I would get even more hear her advice, I would get even more hear her advice, I would get even more upset and I would start like saying, you upset and I would start like saying, you upset and I would start like saying, you know, you should be outraged on my know, you should be outraged on my know, you should be outraged on my behalf. You should be like, you should behalf. You should be like, you should behalf. You should be like, you should be on my side. And I couldn't figure out be on my side. And I couldn't figure out be on my side. And I couldn't figure out why there was this tension between us. why there was this tension between us. why there was this tension between us. And so I went to these researchers and And so I went to these researchers and And so I went to these researchers and they said, well, the the main thing they said, well, the the main thing they said, well, the the main thing that's happening here is when you're that's happening here is when you're that's happening here is when you're having a discussion, you think you know having a discussion, you think you know having a discussion, you think you know what that discussion is about, right? what that discussion is about, right? what that discussion is about, right? You're talking about your day or next You're talking about your day or next You're talking about your day or next year's budget. But actually, if we look year's budget. But actually, if we look year's budget. But actually, if we look inside your brain, what we see is inside your brain, what we see is inside your brain, what we see is there's a bunch of different kinds of there's a bunch of different kinds of there's a bunch of different kinds of conversations all happening at the same conversations all happening at the same conversations all happening at the same time. And in general, these time. And in general, these time. And in general, these conversations tend to fall into one of conversations tend to fall into one of conversations tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's these practical three buckets. There's these practical three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're making plans conversations where we're making plans conversations where we're making plans together or we're solving problems. But together or we're solving problems. But together or we're solving problems. But then there's emotional conversations then there's emotional conversations then there's emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I where I tell you what I'm feeling and I where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I don't want you to solve my feelings. I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. And then there want you to empathize. And then there want you to empathize. And then there are social conversations which is about are social conversations which is about are social conversations which is about how we relate to each other and how we how we relate to each other and how we how we relate to each other and how we relate to other people, the identities relate to other people, the identities relate to other people, the identities that are important to us. And they said, that are important to us. And they said, that are important to us. And they said, "What we've discovered is all three of "What we've discovered is all three of "What we've discovered is all three of these conversations are equally these conversations are equally these conversations are equally important and all three of them will important and all three of them will important and all three of them will probably happen during a discussion, but probably happen during a discussion, but probably happen during a discussion, but if you and the person you are talking to if you and the person you are talking to if you and the person you are talking to are not having the same kind of are not having the same kind of are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, you conversation at the same moment, you conversation at the same moment, you cannot fully hear each other. You cannot fully hear each other. You cannot fully hear each other. You definitely won't feel connected to each definitely won't feel connected to each definitely won't feel connected to each other. Your trust in each other will not other. Your trust in each other will not other. Your trust in each other will not go up. So the key is this is the second go up. So the key is this is the second go up. So the key is this is the second big skill in addition to asking more big skill in addition to asking more big skill in addition to asking more questions that super commmunicators questions that super commmunicators questions that super commmunicators consistent super commmunicators have is consistent super commmunicators have is consistent super commmunicators have is pay attention to what kind of pay attention to what kind of pay attention to what kind of conversation is happening. Does this conversation is happening. Does this conversation is happening. Does this feel practical? Does it feel emotional? feel practical? Does it feel emotional? feel practical? Does it feel emotional? Does it feel social? What kind of words Does it feel social? What kind of words Does it feel social? What kind of words is the other person using and then match is the other person using and then match is the other person using and then match them. What's known within psychology is them. What's known within psychology is them. What's known within psychology is the matching principle. If you're the matching principle. If you're the matching principle. If you're talking about next year's budget and you talking about next year's budget and you talking about next year's budget and you say something like, "Look, I'm really say something like, "Look, I'm really say something like, "Look, I'm really anxious that we got this right cuz I anxious that we got this right cuz I anxious that we got this right cuz I don't want to lay people off." as a don't want to lay people off." as a don't want to lay people off." as a supercommunicator in my head, I should supercommunicator in my head, I should supercommunicator in my head, I should be hearing, "Oh, you're actually having be hearing, "Oh, you're actually having be hearing, "Oh, you're actually having an emotional conversation right now." an emotional conversation right now." an emotional conversation right now." Well, we're not talking about the Well, we're not talking about the Well, we're not talking about the budget. We're talking about how you budget. We're talking about how you budget. We're talking about how you feel, and I need to empathize with that feel, and I need to empathize with that feel, and I need to empathize with that before we can start talking about before we can start talking about before we can start talking about practical things. I need to say to you, practical things. I need to say to you, practical things. I need to say to you, I understand exactly what you're I understand exactly what you're I understand exactly what you're feeling. I feel exactly the same way. I feeling. I feel exactly the same way. I feeling. I feel exactly the same way. I want you to know my number one goal here want you to know my number one goal here want you to know my number one goal here is that we don't have any layoffs, that is that we don't have any layoffs, that is that we don't have any layoffs, that we get to protect our people. So, with we get to protect our people. So, with we get to protect our people. So, with that in mind, can we talk about the that in mind, can we talk about the that in mind, can we talk about the budget, like how to how to how to budget, like how to how to how to budget, like how to how to how to actually get that done? In other words, actually get that done? In other words, actually get that done? In other words, with your permission, can we move from with your permission, can we move from with your permission, can we move from an emotional to a practical conversation an emotional to a practical conversation an emotional to a practical conversation together? together? together? When I do that, what I'm doing is I'm When I do that, what I'm doing is I'm When I do that, what I'm doing is I'm signaling to you that I'm listening to signaling to you that I'm listening to signaling to you that I'm listening to you. I understand your mindset and we you. I understand your mindset and we you. I understand your mindset and we are getting aligned. We are getting are getting aligned. We are getting are getting aligned. We are getting nurly and trained. We're getting in nurly and trained. We're getting in nurly and trained. We're getting in sync, which means that we're going to sync, which means that we're going to sync, which means that we're going to hear each other much much better and hear each other much much better and hear each other much much better and we're going to trust each other more. we're going to trust each other more. we're going to trust each other more. I'm obsessed with like I I love uh I'm obsessed with like I I love uh I'm obsessed with like I I love uh history and I've read um biographies on history and I've read um biographies on history and I've read um biographies on a huge a lot of the presidents and three a huge a lot of the presidents and three a huge a lot of the presidents and three presidents that are very very different presidents that are very very different presidents that are very very different and are very effective communicators are and are very effective communicators are and are very effective communicators are George Washington George Washington George Washington >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. They >> Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. They >> Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. They >> they communicate drastically >> they communicate drastically >> they communicate drastically differently, but I would argue they're differently, but I would argue they're differently, but I would argue they're all very effective. all very effective. all very effective. >> I I absolutely agree. George Washington >> I I absolutely agree. George Washington >> I I absolutely agree. George Washington was significantly more stoic and was significantly more stoic and was significantly more stoic and mysterious and spoke seldom and when he mysterious and spoke seldom and when he mysterious and spoke seldom and when he did spoke you listen no matter what and did spoke you listen no matter what and did spoke you listen no matter what and he had this like regal status. Bill he had this like regal status. Bill he had this like regal status. Bill Clinton was very charming and then Clinton was very charming and then Clinton was very charming and then Donald Trump histick is more like uh way Donald Trump histick is more like uh way Donald Trump histick is more like uh way more crude like riffing with you like more crude like riffing with you like more crude like riffing with you like we're we're boys. we're we're boys. we're we're boys. >> Oh absolutely. In fact, as a reporter, >> Oh absolutely. In fact, as a reporter, >> Oh absolutely. In fact, as a reporter, I've been to a lot of Trump rallies and I've been to a lot of Trump rallies and I've been to a lot of Trump rallies and and whether you you like Donald Trump or and whether you you like Donald Trump or and whether you you like Donald Trump or whether you intensely dislike Donald whether you intensely dislike Donald whether you intensely dislike Donald Trump, going to a rally is well worth Trump, going to a rally is well worth Trump, going to a rally is well worth the time because what you see is he is a the time because what you see is he is a the time because what you see is he is a super communicator. And he uses this super communicator. And he uses this super communicator. And he uses this exact same thing thing that I just exact same thing thing that I just exact same thing thing that I just talked about. He leans he proves he's talked about. He leans he proves he's talked about. He leans he proves he's listening to the crowd by leaning into listening to the crowd by leaning into listening to the crowd by leaning into the type of conversation they want to the type of conversation they want to the type of conversation they want to have. So on a stage, Donald Trump will have. So on a stage, Donald Trump will have. So on a stage, Donald Trump will say something and and if the crowd say something and and if the crowd say something and and if the crowd starts applauding and over and and starts applauding and over and and starts applauding and over and and reacting to it, he'll say it again and reacting to it, he'll say it again and reacting to it, he'll say it again and then he'll just start riffing on that. then he'll just start riffing on that. then he'll just start riffing on that. That's why that's why from a stage he That's why that's why from a stage he That's why that's why from a stage he often says like things that in often says like things that in often says like things that in retrospect look a little crazy is retrospect look a little crazy is retrospect look a little crazy is because he's kind of feeding off the because he's kind of feeding off the because he's kind of feeding off the crowd. The crowd is telling him if he crowd. The crowd is telling him if he crowd. The crowd is telling him if he gets up on stage and he says, you know, gets up on stage and he says, you know, gets up on stage and he says, you know, something emotional like, "I worry about something emotional like, "I worry about something emotional like, "I worry about the future of the nation because we're the future of the nation because we're the future of the nation because we're being overrun by immigrants." and the being overrun by immigrants." and the being overrun by immigrants." and the crowd just kind of goes nuts. He'll lean crowd just kind of goes nuts. He'll lean crowd just kind of goes nuts. He'll lean into that and he recognizes this is an into that and he recognizes this is an into that and he recognizes this is an emotional conversation, right? This is emotional conversation, right? This is emotional conversation, right? This is this is not about the practicalities of this is not about the practicalities of this is not about the practicalities of immigration reform. This is people immigration reform. This is people immigration reform. This is people feeling like they're lost at home, like feeling like they're lost at home, like feeling like they're lost at home, like they're losing ground and he'll lean they're losing ground and he'll lean they're losing ground and he'll lean into that. Now, I've also met with into that. Now, I've also met with into that. Now, I've also met with Donald Trump one-on-one in in like, you Donald Trump one-on-one in in like, you Donald Trump one-on-one in in like, you know, settings where he's meeting with know, settings where he's meeting with know, settings where he's meeting with reporters. The dude asks questions reporters. The dude asks questions reporters. The dude asks questions constantly, right? And a lot of the constantly, right? And a lot of the constantly, right? And a lot of the questions are like about him. He's like, questions are like about him. He's like, questions are like about him. He's like, "What do you think? Why do you think "What do you think? Why do you think "What do you think? Why do you think these people hate me so much?" or what these people hate me so much?" or what these people hate me so much?" or what do you think about this thing that I do you think about this thing that I do you think about this thing that I did? But the fact is that fact of the did? But the fact is that fact of the did? But the fact is that fact of the matter is instead of giving little matter is instead of giving little matter is instead of giving little speeches, he's asking questions. He's speeches, he's asking questions. He's speeches, he's asking questions. He's drawing you into the conversation. The drawing you into the conversation. The drawing you into the conversation. The truth of the matter is that we are all truth of the matter is that we are all truth of the matter is that we are all really good at communication, right? Our really good at communication, right? Our really good at communication, right? Our because we're a pro-social species, our because we're a pro-social species, our because we're a pro-social species, our brain has evolved to be really good at brain has evolved to be really good at brain has evolved to be really good at communication. And the people who are communication. And the people who are communication. And the people who are best at communication, it is not because best at communication, it is not because best at communication, it is not because they were born that way, it's because they were born that way, it's because they were born that way, it's because they think about communication. Right? they think about communication. Right? they think about communication. Right? Bill Clinton's a great example. If you Bill Clinton's a great example. If you Bill Clinton's a great example. If you ask Bill Clinton, were you always a good ask Bill Clinton, were you always a good ask Bill Clinton, were you always a good communicator? He says no. He says that communicator? He says no. He says that communicator? He says no. He says that when he was a kid, he actually had when he was a kid, he actually had when he was a kid, he actually had trouble making friends with other kids. trouble making friends with other kids. trouble making friends with other kids. He didn't know how to talk to them. But He didn't know how to talk to them. But He didn't know how to talk to them. But he said that in high school, he really he said that in high school, he really he said that in high school, he really studied how kids talked to each other. studied how kids talked to each other. studied how kids talked to each other. Like he felt like this is something and Like he felt like this is something and Like he felt like this is something and that because his parents got divorced, that because his parents got divorced, that because his parents got divorced, he had to be the peacemaker between he had to be the peacemaker between he had to be the peacemaker between them. He trained himself to think just a them. He trained himself to think just a them. He trained himself to think just a little bit more about communication and little bit more about communication and little bit more about communication and that's what makes him a great that's what makes him a great that's what makes him a great communicator. And all of us can do that. communicator. And all of us can do that. communicator. And all of us can do that. I'm not a Donald Trump supporter. Um, I'm not a Donald Trump supporter. Um, I'm not a Donald Trump supporter. Um, but I am intoxicated. Like I think he's but I am intoxicated. Like I think he's but I am intoxicated. Like I think he's hilarious. Like if I have to remove the hilarious. Like if I have to remove the hilarious. Like if I have to remove the fact that like I don't agree with what fact that like I don't agree with what fact that like I don't agree with what he just said, but I can also acknowledge he just said, but I can also acknowledge he just said, but I can also acknowledge I'm like that's so funny. Like were you I'm like that's so funny. Like were you I'm like that's so funny. Like were you intoxicated when you met him? intoxicated when you met him? intoxicated when you met him? >> No, I was not I was not intoxicated when >> No, I was not I was not intoxicated when >> No, I was not I was not intoxicated when when I met him. And I I would also say when I met him. And I I would also say when I met him. And I I would also say I'm not a Donald Trump fan. I I like I I'm not a Donald Trump fan. I I like I I'm not a Donald Trump fan. I I like I as a particularly as a reporter, I try as a particularly as a reporter, I try as a particularly as a reporter, I try and not be a fan of anyone um but that's and not be a fan of anyone um but that's and not be a fan of anyone um but that's running for office because you have to running for office because you have to running for office because you have to be skeptical. But I I will say this be skeptical. But I I will say this be skeptical. But I I will say this about Trump is that he comes off as about Trump is that he comes off as about Trump is that he comes off as being very authentic. And this is being very authentic. And this is being very authentic. And this is another thing that super commmunicators another thing that super commmunicators another thing that super commmunicators do really well, right? You believe that do really well, right? You believe that do really well, right? You believe that you're seeing the real version of them. you're seeing the real version of them. you're seeing the real version of them. And the way that we actually create a And the way that we actually create a And the way that we actually create a sense of authenticity, this has been sense of authenticity, this has been sense of authenticity, this has been studied a lot, is that we'll often do studied a lot, is that we'll often do studied a lot, is that we'll often do something that's a little bit something that's a little bit something that's a little bit vulnerable. vulnerable. vulnerable. >> And we tend to misunderstand what this >> And we tend to misunderstand what this >> And we tend to misunderstand what this word vulnerability means. We think it's word vulnerability means. We think it's word vulnerability means. We think it's like crying on each other's shoulders or like crying on each other's shoulders or like crying on each other's shoulders or something like that. Actually, something like that. Actually, something like that. Actually, vulnerability is a very specific thing vulnerability is a very specific thing vulnerability is a very specific thing that happens inside a brain. that happens inside a brain. that happens inside a brain. Vulnerability is a neural cascade that Vulnerability is a neural cascade that Vulnerability is a neural cascade that occurs when I say something to you that occurs when I say something to you that occurs when I say something to you that you could judge. you could judge. you could judge. And if in that moment you withhold And if in that moment you withhold And if in that moment you withhold judgment and more importantly if you judgment and more importantly if you judgment and more importantly if you share something about yourself that I share something about yourself that I share something about yourself that I could judge in return then we will feel could judge in return then we will feel could judge in return then we will feel closer to each other. So, think about closer to each other. So, think about closer to each other. So, think about when Donald Trump's on that stage, you when Donald Trump's on that stage, you when Donald Trump's on that stage, you know that like weird dance he does, know that like weird dance he does, know that like weird dance he does, right? That like it's not it's not an right? That like it's not it's not an right? That like it's not it's not an attractive dance, right? He's not a he's attractive dance, right? He's not a he's attractive dance, right? He's not a he's not a graceful man on on on his two not a graceful man on on on his two not a graceful man on on on his two feet. And yet, it's incredibly endearing feet. And yet, it's incredibly endearing feet. And yet, it's incredibly endearing because it's vulnerable. Now, it's not because it's vulnerable. Now, it's not because it's vulnerable. Now, it's not vulnerable in a way that like makes him vulnerable in a way that like makes him vulnerable in a way that like makes him open to attack. It's vulnerable in that open to attack. It's vulnerable in that open to attack. It's vulnerable in that he's sharing something that you could he's sharing something that you could he's sharing something that you could judge. You could say, "That's the judge. You could say, "That's the judge. You could say, "That's the dumbest dance I've ever seen in my dumbest dance I've ever seen in my dumbest dance I've ever seen in my entire life." But when you withhold that entire life." But when you withhold that entire life." But when you withhold that judgment, you actually feel closer to judgment, you actually feel closer to judgment, you actually feel closer to him. And so one of the things that he him. And so one of the things that he him. And so one of the things that he does that all great leaders do is that does that all great leaders do is that does that all great leaders do is that they reveal things about themselves. they reveal things about themselves. they reveal things about themselves. They they allow these moments of They they allow these moments of They they allow these moments of vulnerability when I'm going to say vulnerability when I'm going to say vulnerability when I'm going to say something that I know you could judge. something that I know you could judge. something that I know you could judge. I'm going to make it available to you I'm going to make it available to you I'm going to make it available to you for your judgment because in that for your judgment because in that for your judgment because in that moment, you will believe I am authentic. moment, you will believe I am authentic. moment, you will believe I am authentic. You will believe you're seeing the real You will believe you're seeing the real You will believe you're seeing the real me. And that's really, really powerful. me. And that's really, really powerful. me. And that's really, really powerful. I think that word I hate. I hate the I think that word I hate. I hate the I think that word I hate. I hate the word authenticity. I hate that word. word authenticity. I hate that word. word authenticity. I hate that word. >> Yes. Um and I'll explain why. I um I >> Yes. Um and I'll explain why. I um I >> Yes. Um and I'll explain why. I um I think it's [ __ ] I actually don't think it's [ __ ] I actually don't think it's [ __ ] I actually don't think you should be authentic because think you should be authentic because think you should be authentic because the fact is is that we're all performing the fact is is that we're all performing the fact is is that we're all performing and I want to convince this girl to go and I want to convince this girl to go and I want to convince this girl to go on a date with me. I want to convince on a date with me. I want to convince on a date with me. I want to convince this employee to work at my company. I this employee to work at my company. I this employee to work at my company. I want to convince someone to do want to convince someone to do want to convince someone to do everything. Saying to be authentic, everything. Saying to be authentic, everything. Saying to be authentic, that's like saying someone just be that's like saying someone just be that's like saying someone just be yourself and they'll like you. No, don't yourself and they'll like you. No, don't yourself and they'll like you. No, don't be yourself. Change yourself so you are be yourself. Change yourself so you are be yourself. Change yourself so you are a better person and that people then a better person and that people then a better person and that people then will like you. So, I'm going to push will like you. So, I'm going to push will like you. So, I'm going to push back a little bit because I actually back a little bit because I actually back a little bit because I actually think I think what you just said is think I think what you just said is think I think what you just said is authenticity. I don't think authenticity authenticity. I don't think authenticity authenticity. I don't think authenticity means means means >> it's all an act. >> it's all an act. >> it's all an act. >> Well, I I think but I think authenticity >> Well, I I think but I think authenticity >> Well, I I think but I think authenticity is choosing is choosing is choosing not necessarily which act choosing which not necessarily which act choosing which not necessarily which act choosing which part of myself I want to expose right part of myself I want to expose right part of myself I want to expose right now, right? Like the truth of the matter now, right? Like the truth of the matter now, right? Like the truth of the matter is I could in this conversation you is I could in this conversation you is I could in this conversation you could have spent this conversation just could have spent this conversation just could have spent this conversation just telling me how impressive you are like telling me how impressive you are like telling me how impressive you are like all of your successes. But instead you all of your successes. But instead you all of your successes. But instead you the the act that you choose, the aspect the the act that you choose, the aspect the the act that you choose, the aspect of yourself you choose to to share with of yourself you choose to to share with of yourself you choose to to share with me is like a really curious guy who like me is like a really curious guy who like me is like a really curious guy who like doesn't have all the answers and and doesn't have all the answers and and doesn't have all the answers and and recognizes that luck is part of it and recognizes that luck is part of it and recognizes that luck is part of it and hard work is part of it and wants to hard work is part of it and wants to hard work is part of it and wants to understand how to get better. I don't understand how to get better. I don't understand how to get better. I don't think that's an inauthentic display of think that's an inauthentic display of think that's an inauthentic display of who you are. I think it's you who you are. I think it's you who you are. I think it's you authentically choosing which part of authentically choosing which part of authentically choosing which part of yourself to share with the world. And I yourself to share with the world. And I yourself to share with the world. And I think that I I I understand the think that I I I understand the think that I I I understand the skepticism towards authenticity. The skepticism towards authenticity. The skepticism towards authenticity. The word has become like such a bugaboo of word has become like such a bugaboo of word has become like such a bugaboo of meaning like meaning so many different meaning like meaning so many different meaning like meaning so many different things. But what I think for me it means things. But what I think for me it means things. But what I think for me it means is genuinely wanting to connect with is genuinely wanting to connect with is genuinely wanting to connect with another person and wanting to connect another person and wanting to connect another person and wanting to connect with them on both their terms and my with them on both their terms and my with them on both their terms and my terms and saying like look like this is terms and saying like look like this is terms and saying like look like this is who I am. I I want you to know who I am. who I am. I I want you to know who I am. who I am. I I want you to know who I am. The real me at least to some degree. And The real me at least to some degree. And The real me at least to some degree. And I might, that doesn't mean I'm gonna I might, that doesn't mean I'm gonna I might, that doesn't mean I'm gonna necessarily tell you all about my necessarily tell you all about my necessarily tell you all about my childhood trauma or my drinking childhood trauma or my drinking childhood trauma or my drinking problems, but I want you to be able to problems, but I want you to be able to problems, but I want you to be able to know who I am on some level, the real know who I am on some level, the real know who I am on some level, the real me. And I want to know the real you. And me. And I want to know the real you. And me. And I want to know the real you. And it's that act of actually saying I want it's that act of actually saying I want it's that act of actually saying I want to be authentic or I want to be to be authentic or I want to be to be authentic or I want to be vulnerable that creates the connection. vulnerable that creates the connection. vulnerable that creates the connection. It's not the authenticity itself. It's It's not the authenticity itself. It's It's not the authenticity itself. It's the act of saying I'm willing to be the act of saying I'm willing to be the act of saying I'm willing to be vulnerable with you because I want I vulnerable with you because I want I vulnerable with you because I want I want to connect with you. That is the want to connect with you. That is the want to connect with you. That is the first and most important step for us first and most important step for us first and most important step for us actually feeling connected to each actually feeling connected to each actually feeling connected to each other. other. other. >> Who's a super communicator that's a >> Who's a super communicator that's a >> Who's a super communicator that's a famous person that I should go and famous person that I should go and famous person that I should go and study? study? study? >> Oh gosh, that's a really good question. >> Oh gosh, that's a really good question. >> Oh gosh, that's a really good question. I mean, there's so many of them. I mean, I mean, there's so many of them. I mean, I mean, there's so many of them. I mean, honestly, one of them is Steve Jobs. And honestly, one of them is Steve Jobs. And honestly, one of them is Steve Jobs. And we don't think of Steve Jobs as a super we don't think of Steve Jobs as a super we don't think of Steve Jobs as a super communicator, right? Everything about communicator, right? Everything about communicator, right? Everything about Steve Jobs is like he was such a jerk to Steve Jobs is like he was such a jerk to Steve Jobs is like he was such a jerk to his employees and he would create this his employees and he would create this his employees and he would create this reality distortion field. But if you go reality distortion field. But if you go reality distortion field. But if you go and you watch interviews with Steve and you watch interviews with Steve and you watch interviews with Steve Jobs, what you see is you see him Jobs, what you see is you see him Jobs, what you see is you see him constantly authentically sharing who he constantly authentically sharing who he constantly authentically sharing who he is and then asking questions and proving is and then asking questions and proving is and then asking questions and proving to the other person that he's listening to the other person that he's listening to the other person that he's listening to them. Right? So there's there's a to them. Right? So there's there's a to them. Right? So there's there's a number of speeches he gave at like gradu number of speeches he gave at like gradu number of speeches he gave at like gradu Stanford Graduate School of Business Stanford Graduate School of Business Stanford Graduate School of Business where the clips that get put on social where the clips that get put on social where the clips that get put on social media are the clips of Steve Jobs media are the clips of Steve Jobs media are the clips of Steve Jobs talking about like doing LSD or like his talking about like doing LSD or like his talking about like doing LSD or like his vision. But if you watch the entire time vision. But if you watch the entire time vision. But if you watch the entire time that he was in that classroom, what you that he was in that classroom, what you that he was in that classroom, what you see is that he Steve Jobs, one of the see is that he Steve Jobs, one of the see is that he Steve Jobs, one of the most famous guys on earth, he spends most famous guys on earth, he spends most famous guys on earth, he spends like about a third of the time asking like about a third of the time asking like about a third of the time asking the students questions like what do you the students questions like what do you the students questions like what do you think about that? Why did you make that think about that? Why did you make that think about that? Why did you make that decision? What was your experience when decision? What was your experience when decision? What was your experience when you picked up this device? He is a guy you picked up this device? He is a guy you picked up this device? He is a guy who genuinely not only wants you to who genuinely not only wants you to who genuinely not only wants you to understand him, he wants to understand understand him, he wants to understand understand him, he wants to understand you. And you get that feeling, right? you. And you get that feeling, right? you. And you get that feeling, right? That's the Bill Clinton thing. Like I' That's the Bill Clinton thing. Like I' That's the Bill Clinton thing. Like I' I've met Bill Clinton also and like the I've met Bill Clinton also and like the I've met Bill Clinton also and like the truth of the matter is Bill Clinton truth of the matter is Bill Clinton truth of the matter is Bill Clinton genuinely wants to charm and know the genuinely wants to charm and know the genuinely wants to charm and know the people he is talking to. people he is talking to. people he is talking to. >> What did he say to you that uh was an >> What did he say to you that uh was an >> What did he say to you that uh was an example of charming? example of charming? example of charming? >> I had written this article and and it's >> I had written this article and and it's >> I had written this article and and it's clear that like one of his aids had clear that like one of his aids had clear that like one of his aids had briefed him that I'd written the briefed him that I'd written the briefed him that I'd written the article, but he comes up and he goes, article, but he comes up and he goes, article, but he comes up and he goes, "Man, that article you wrote, it was "Man, that article you wrote, it was "Man, that article you wrote, it was just great. It was just great." And I'm just great. It was just great." And I'm just great. It was just great." And I'm wondering what was the thing you carried wondering what was the thing you carried wondering what was the thing you carried away from it cuz you must know so much away from it cuz you must know so much away from it cuz you must know so much about this. this it must have been so about this. this it must have been so about this. this it must have been so powerful for you. What did you carry powerful for you. What did you carry powerful for you. What did you carry away? And of course the former president away? And of course the former president away? And of course the former president of the United States is asking me about of the United States is asking me about of the United States is asking me about my work. I'm like I'm like oh Mr. my work. I'm like I'm like oh Mr. my work. I'm like I'm like oh Mr. President let me tell you like I'm so President let me tell you like I'm so President let me tell you like I'm so glad you read that. Right. I was bowled glad you read that. Right. I was bowled glad you read that. Right. I was bowled over by it. But like what he did is he over by it. But like what he did is he over by it. But like what he did is he asked me a question and he seemed asked me a question and he seemed asked me a question and he seemed genuinely curious in the response. And genuinely curious in the response. And genuinely curious in the response. And to be honest and maybe I'm just a to be honest and maybe I'm just a to be honest and maybe I'm just a sucker. I believed him. I believed that sucker. I believed him. I believed that sucker. I believed him. I believed that he actually wanted to know because he's he actually wanted to know because he's he actually wanted to know because he's a curious guy. He wanted to know what I a curious guy. He wanted to know what I a curious guy. He wanted to know what I had learned and I felt wonderful as a had learned and I felt wonderful as a had learned and I felt wonderful as a result. What's a good famous example of result. What's a good famous example of result. What's a good famous example of a speech or a moment in time that you a speech or a moment in time that you a speech or a moment in time that you point to or or multiple examples that point to or or multiple examples that point to or or multiple examples that you point to where you're like that's a you point to where you're like that's a you point to where you're like that's a textbook example of super textbook example of super textbook example of super commmunicating? commmunicating? commmunicating? >> Oh, so um so one of the my favorites is >> Oh, so um so one of the my favorites is >> Oh, so um so one of the my favorites is Ronald Reagan. So, if you'll remember, Ronald Reagan. So, if you'll remember, Ronald Reagan. So, if you'll remember, it was a long time ago, so you might it was a long time ago, so you might it was a long time ago, so you might have been too young. And I was actually have been too young. And I was actually have been too young. And I was actually too young myself, but when Ronald Reagan too young myself, but when Ronald Reagan too young myself, but when Ronald Reagan was running for his second term, there was running for his second term, there was running for his second term, there were all these questions about his were all these questions about his were all these questions about his mental acuity, right? Like people there mental acuity, right? Like people there mental acuity, right? Like people there were all these articles about the fact were all these articles about the fact were all these articles about the fact that his memory was failing and and he that his memory was failing and and he that his memory was failing and and he gets up on this on stage on the stage to gets up on this on stage on the stage to gets up on this on stage on the stage to to debate Walter Manddale. This is the to debate Walter Manddale. This is the to debate Walter Manddale. This is the second debate. And second debate. And second debate. And >> was uh was younger than him. Yeah. >> was uh was younger than him. Yeah. >> was uh was younger than him. Yeah. >> Mondell was younger than him. And >> Mondell was younger than him. And >> Mondell was younger than him. And Manddale was like seen as like like his Manddale was like seen as like like his Manddale was like seen as like like his reputation. He had never lost an reputation. He had never lost an reputation. He had never lost an election before and he was seen as this election before and he was seen as this election before and he was seen as this like wonderkin, right? Like the the like like wonderkin, right? Like the the like like wonderkin, right? Like the the like his brain was so smart. And Ronald his brain was so smart. And Ronald his brain was so smart. And Ronald Reagan gets up on the stage and one of Reagan gets up on the stage and one of Reagan gets up on the stage and one of the first things he says is he makes a the first things he says is he makes a the first things he says is he makes a joke. He says, "I want you to know that joke. He says, "I want you to know that joke. He says, "I want you to know that during this debate, I will at no time during this debate, I will at no time during this debate, I will at no time make fun of my opponent's youth and make fun of my opponent's youth and make fun of my opponent's youth and inexperience, inexperience, inexperience, >> right?" And everyone kind of laughs >> right?" And everyone kind of laughs >> right?" And everyone kind of laughs because they all realize what he's because they all realize what he's because they all realize what he's talking about. there's he's saying like talking about. there's he's saying like talking about. there's he's saying like look like I I'm not gonna I'm not going look like I I'm not gonna I'm not going look like I I'm not gonna I'm not going to make fun of the fact that like he's to make fun of the fact that like he's to make fun of the fact that like he's younger than me because he's going to younger than me because he's going to younger than me because he's going to say I'm too old and that my memor is say I'm too old and that my memor is say I'm too old and that my memor is going and what it did is it first of all going and what it did is it first of all going and what it did is it first of all was kind of vulnerable right like it's was kind of vulnerable right like it's was kind of vulnerable right like it's him admitting that there's this him admitting that there's this him admitting that there's this criticism of him that he's aware of it's criticism of him that he's aware of it's criticism of him that he's aware of it's exposing something that other people exposing something that other people exposing something that other people could judge but then by making a joke of could judge but then by making a joke of could judge but then by making a joke of it he completely disarms the issue like it he completely disarms the issue like it he completely disarms the issue like in that moment it stop his mental acuity in that moment it stop his mental acuity in that moment it stop his mental acuity stopped being an issue now if you'll stopped being an issue now if you'll stopped being an issue now if you'll remember actually later in in a second remember actually later in in a second remember actually later in in a second administration, this becomes an issue administration, this becomes an issue administration, this becomes an issue because it turns out that he's suffering because it turns out that he's suffering because it turns out that he's suffering from from what people think are early from from what people think are early from from what people think are early early signs of of Alzheimer dementia. early signs of of Alzheimer dementia. early signs of of Alzheimer dementia. So, it was totally a legitimate issue to So, it was totally a legitimate issue to So, it was totally a legitimate issue to bring up during the election, but he bring up during the election, but he bring up during the election, but he just did this jiujitsu by being a little just did this jiujitsu by being a little just did this jiujitsu by being a little bit vulnerable about it about it and bit vulnerable about it about it and bit vulnerable about it about it and making a joke of it that all of a sudden making a joke of it that all of a sudden making a joke of it that all of a sudden it became an attack that didn't have any it became an attack that didn't have any it became an attack that didn't have any teeth. That's an example of super teeth. That's an example of super teeth. That's an example of super commmunication. and he just connected commmunication. and he just connected commmunication. and he just connected with people in that moment in a way that with people in that moment in a way that with people in that moment in a way that that surprised everyone. that surprised everyone. that surprised everyone. >> So asking um valuebased questions. Yep. >> So asking um valuebased questions. Yep. >> So asking um valuebased questions. Yep. >> Getting tactical vulnerability. >> Getting tactical vulnerability. >> Getting tactical vulnerability. >> Um what what else? >> Um what what else? >> Um what what else? >> So figuring out what kind of mindset, >> So figuring out what kind of mindset, >> So figuring out what kind of mindset, what kind of conversation is happening? what kind of conversation is happening? what kind of conversation is happening? Are you in an emotional mindset? Are you Are you in an emotional mindset? Are you Are you in an emotional mindset? Are you in a practical mindset? And then the in a practical mindset? And then the in a practical mindset? And then the last one is super communicators succeed last one is super communicators succeed last one is super communicators succeed because they not only listen, but they because they not only listen, but they because they not only listen, but they prove that they're listening. So there's prove that they're listening. So there's prove that they're listening. So there's this kind of like myth that like the key this kind of like myth that like the key this kind of like myth that like the key to listening is like close your mouth to listening is like close your mouth to listening is like close your mouth and open your ears. And that's the first and open your ears. And that's the first and open your ears. And that's the first step to listening. But it turns out step to listening. But it turns out step to listening. But it turns out study after study shows that is not study after study shows that is not study after study shows that is not enough on its own. The key to listening enough on its own. The key to listening enough on its own. The key to listening is to make listening an active process. is to make listening an active process. is to make listening an active process. It's to prove to you that I am paying It's to prove to you that I am paying It's to prove to you that I am paying attention to what you're saying. And you attention to what you're saying. And you attention to what you're saying. And you actually just did this really well. You actually just did this really well. You actually just did this really well. You repeated what I said, right? You were repeated what I said, right? You were repeated what I said, right? You were like, "Okay, here's the three things like, "Okay, here's the three things like, "Okay, here's the three things I've heard from you." You're proving I've heard from you." You're proving I've heard from you." You're proving that you're paying attention to it. So, that you're paying attention to it. So, that you're paying attention to it. So, if I'm in a conversation with someone, if I'm in a conversation with someone, if I'm in a conversation with someone, particularly if I'm in a conflict particularly if I'm in a conflict particularly if I'm in a conflict conversation where we're disagreeing conversation where we're disagreeing conversation where we're disagreeing about something, what I should do is I about something, what I should do is I about something, what I should do is I should use this technique called looping should use this technique called looping should use this technique called looping for understanding, which is step one is for understanding, which is step one is for understanding, which is step one is I'm going to ask you a question, I'm going to ask you a question, I'm going to ask you a question, preferably a deep question. Tell me why preferably a deep question. Tell me why preferably a deep question. Tell me why this issue is important to to you. Tell this issue is important to to you. Tell this issue is important to to you. Tell me what you really think about this me what you really think about this me what you really think about this question, like why it's why why this question, like why it's why why this question, like why it's why why this matters. I'm going to listen to your matters. I'm going to listen to your matters. I'm going to listen to your answer. And then step two is I'm going answer. And then step two is I'm going answer. And then step two is I'm going to repeat back in my own words what I to repeat back in my own words what I to repeat back in my own words what I heard you say. And the key here is not heard you say. And the key here is not heard you say. And the key here is not mimickry. If I just mimic you, it mimickry. If I just mimic you, it mimickry. If I just mimic you, it doesn't work. The key here is to prove doesn't work. The key here is to prove doesn't work. The key here is to prove to you that I've actually been thinking to you that I've actually been thinking to you that I've actually been thinking about what you've been saying. I've been about what you've been saying. I've been about what you've been saying. I've been paying attention. So, what I heard you paying attention. So, what I heard you paying attention. So, what I heard you say is I heard you say that like, you say is I heard you say that like, you say is I heard you say that like, you know, you wake you wear your your know, you wake you wear your your know, you wake you wear your your workout clothes. And I think that what workout clothes. And I think that what workout clothes. And I think that what I'm really hearing you say is working I'm really hearing you say is working I'm really hearing you say is working out is a keystone habit for you. It's a out is a keystone habit for you. It's a out is a keystone habit for you. It's a way that you tell yourself who you are. way that you tell yourself who you are. way that you tell yourself who you are. You prove your discipline in the You prove your discipline in the You prove your discipline in the morning. That's step two is I'm morning. That's step two is I'm morning. That's step two is I'm repeating back what I'm hearing. I'm repeating back what I'm hearing. I'm repeating back what I'm hearing. I'm adding something to it. And most people adding something to it. And most people adding something to it. And most people kind of do this intuitively. Step one kind of do this intuitively. Step one kind of do this intuitively. Step one and step two as they get older. Step and step two as they get older. Step and step two as they get older. Step three is the one that I always forget is three is the one that I always forget is three is the one that I always forget is that when I say that, I ask you if I got that when I say that, I ask you if I got that when I say that, I ask you if I got it right. Did Did I hear you? Am I Am I it right. Did Did I hear you? Am I Am I it right. Did Did I hear you? Am I Am I understanding the role that exercise understanding the role that exercise understanding the role that exercise plays in your your life correctly? Did plays in your your life correctly? Did plays in your your life correctly? Did Did I get it? Did I get it? Did I get it? >> Because what I'm doing in that moment is >> Because what I'm doing in that moment is >> Because what I'm doing in that moment is I'm asking you for permission to I'm asking you for permission to I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And if acknowledge that I was listening. And if acknowledge that I was listening. And if you acknowledge that I'm listening to you acknowledge that I'm listening to you acknowledge that I'm listening to you, you become something like 10 times you, you become something like 10 times you, you become something like 10 times more likely to listen to me in response. more likely to listen to me in response. more likely to listen to me in response. M M M >> it's this inborn instinct known as >> it's this inborn instinct known as >> it's this inborn instinct known as social reciprocity social reciprocity social reciprocity >> that that when we think someone's >> that that when we think someone's >> that that when we think someone's listening to us, we want to listen to listening to us, we want to listen to listening to us, we want to listen to them. them. them. >> And so super communicators prove they >> And so super communicators prove they >> And so super communicators prove they are listening. They don't just sit are listening. They don't just sit are listening. They don't just sit there, you know, they don't do the Dale there, you know, they don't do the Dale there, you know, they don't do the Dale Carnegie thing. They don't just ask Carnegie thing. They don't just ask Carnegie thing. They don't just ask question after question after question. question after question after question. question after question after question. They layer on top of that proving that They layer on top of that proving that They layer on top of that proving that they're paying attention by saying they're paying attention by saying they're paying attention by saying things like, "Oh, it's so interesting things like, "Oh, it's so interesting things like, "Oh, it's so interesting you mentioned that because something you mentioned that because something you mentioned that because something similar happened to me." Or I want to similar happened to me." Or I want to similar happened to me." Or I want to ask you about this thing that you said ask you about this thing that you said ask you about this thing that you said before because it reminds me of this before because it reminds me of this before because it reminds me of this question I've been thinking about. They question I've been thinking about. They question I've been thinking about. They prove that they're paying attention and prove that they're paying attention and prove that they're paying attention and in doing so we believe that they are in doing so we believe that they are in doing so we believe that they are listening to us because in fact they are listening to us because in fact they are listening to us because in fact they are listening to us. Dude, this is so listening to us. Dude, this is so listening to us. Dude, this is so interesting and it becomes like meta interesting and it becomes like meta interesting and it becomes like meta because as you're like telling me things because as you're like telling me things because as you're like telling me things I'm like all right I have to make sure I'm like all right I have to make sure I'm like all right I have to make sure that I do a loop when he's like that I do a loop when he's like that I do a loop when he's like >> No, but then the nice thing is first of >> No, but then the nice thing is first of >> No, but then the nice thing is first of all you do a lot of this stuff all you do a lot of this stuff all you do a lot of this stuff intuitively because you are a good intuitively because you are a good intuitively because you are a good communicator. communicator. communicator. >> It's not intuitive. I'm telling you I >> It's not intuitive. I'm telling you I >> It's not intuitive. I'm telling you I had to learn all this. I was a very had to learn all this. I was a very had to learn all this. I was a very uncomfortable 14-year-old. uncomfortable 14-year-old. uncomfortable 14-year-old. >> And do you know what changed my life? >> And do you know what changed my life? >> And do you know what changed my life? And I don't I don't mind admitting this And I don't I don't mind admitting this And I don't I don't mind admitting this because I'm happily married, but reading because I'm happily married, but reading because I'm happily married, but reading books on how to meet women. When I was books on how to meet women. When I was books on how to meet women. When I was 14 and 15, I looked like Napoleon 14 and 15, I looked like Napoleon 14 and 15, I looked like Napoleon Dynamite. I was really goofy looking. I Dynamite. I was really goofy looking. I Dynamite. I was really goofy looking. I was uncomfortable. I didn't have a lot was uncomfortable. I didn't have a lot was uncomfortable. I didn't have a lot of guy friends. Like people didn't of guy friends. Like people didn't of guy friends. Like people didn't particularly like me. And I read all of particularly like me. And I read all of particularly like me. And I read all of these books on how to pick up girls. It these books on how to pick up girls. It these books on how to pick up girls. It wasn't like a matter of like hooking up, wasn't like a matter of like hooking up, wasn't like a matter of like hooking up, although that would have been awesome, although that would have been awesome, although that would have been awesome, which it didn't happen, but it was like which it didn't happen, but it was like which it didn't happen, but it was like I just want to like be accepted. And so I just want to like be accepted. And so I just want to like be accepted. And so I read pretty much every book you could I read pretty much every book you could I read pretty much every book you could ever find about how to pick up a girl. ever find about how to pick up a girl. ever find about how to pick up a girl. And what you learn is that those like And what you learn is that those like And what you learn is that those like it's it starts like where you just learn it's it starts like where you just learn it's it starts like where you just learn the tactics of how to have a the tactics of how to have a the tactics of how to have a conversation, but then you realize that conversation, but then you realize that conversation, but then you realize that like the secret in all of this is to like the secret in all of this is to like the secret in all of this is to becoming a good person who's worthy of becoming a good person who's worthy of becoming a good person who's worthy of love and who's worthy of other people's love and who's worthy of other people's love and who's worthy of other people's attention. And that is like the true attention. And that is like the true attention. And that is like the true secret and that is a good one. secret and that is a good one. secret and that is a good one. >> Okay. So I'm going to point something >> Okay. So I'm going to point something >> Okay. So I'm going to point something out that I think is really interesting. out that I think is really interesting. out that I think is really interesting. you as an authenticity skeptic, what you you as an authenticity skeptic, what you you as an authenticity skeptic, what you just told me was really authentic, just told me was really authentic, just told me was really authentic, right? Like you told me that you read right? Like you told me that you read right? Like you told me that you read books about picking up girls, which is books about picking up girls, which is books about picking up girls, which is something that like in in your head, you something that like in in your head, you something that like in in your head, you know, I could judge, I could be like, know, I could judge, I could be like, know, I could judge, I could be like, "Oh, this guy's a dirt bag." You're the "Oh, this guy's a dirt bag." You're the "Oh, this guy's a dirt bag." You're the kind of guy who like reads books on kind of guy who like reads books on kind of guy who like reads books on picking up girls. But by sharing that picking up girls. But by sharing that picking up girls. But by sharing that with me, by saying something that, you with me, by saying something that, you with me, by saying something that, you know, I could judge by being a little know, I could judge by being a little know, I could judge by being a little bit vulnerable, it actually brings us bit vulnerable, it actually brings us bit vulnerable, it actually brings us closer together. You're exactly right. closer together. You're exactly right. closer together. You're exactly right. Authenticity is not having a trick in my Authenticity is not having a trick in my Authenticity is not having a trick in my back pocket that I can use. Cuz if it's back pocket that I can use. Cuz if it's back pocket that I can use. Cuz if it's not genuine, it's not real. And people not genuine, it's not real. And people not genuine, it's not real. And people are going to feel that. Authenticity is are going to feel that. Authenticity is are going to feel that. Authenticity is actually sharing with you who I really actually sharing with you who I really actually sharing with you who I really am with full knowledge that you could am with full knowledge that you could am with full knowledge that you could hold it against me, but trusting that hold it against me, but trusting that hold it against me, but trusting that you're not going to because we're going you're not going to because we're going you're not going to because we're going to because we're going to learn things to because we're going to learn things to because we're going to learn things about each other that make us feel about each other that make us feel about each other that make us feel closer. closer. closer. >> You're not like I wouldn't say that >> You're not like I wouldn't say that >> You're not like I wouldn't say that you're the most prolific author like you're the most prolific author like you're the most prolific author like you. Well, in terms of books, like it you. Well, in terms of books, like it you. Well, in terms of books, like it seems like you find a topic and you like seems like you find a topic and you like seems like you find a topic and you like go super deep. go super deep. go super deep. >> So, so I I have this basic this basic >> So, so I I have this basic this basic >> So, so I I have this basic this basic desire with everything I write, which is desire with everything I write, which is desire with everything I write, which is >> to write something that I genuinely >> to write something that I genuinely >> to write something that I genuinely believe 20 years from now someone can believe 20 years from now someone can believe 20 years from now someone can pick it up and just love it. And and pick it up and just love it. And and pick it up and just love it. And and actually I do this myself like I buy old actually I do this myself like I buy old actually I do this myself like I buy old copies of magazines. I just bought In copies of magazines. I just bought In copies of magazines. I just bought In Cold Blood by Truman Capot, right? Which Cold Blood by Truman Capot, right? Which Cold Blood by Truman Capot, right? Which kind of created the true crime genre. kind of created the true crime genre. kind of created the true crime genre. Yeah. One of my favorites. I Yeah. One of my favorites. I Yeah. One of my favorites. I >> Yeah. It's wonderful. I found a copy of >> Yeah. It's wonderful. I found a copy of >> Yeah. It's wonderful. I found a copy of the original New Yorker magazine that it the original New Yorker magazine that it the original New Yorker magazine that it was printed in and I bought it online was printed in and I bought it online was printed in and I bought it online from eBay. from eBay. from eBay. >> And so, as a result, if that's your goal >> And so, as a result, if that's your goal >> And so, as a result, if that's your goal is to write something really big, it is to write something really big, it is to write something really big, it does take time. In part, it takes time does take time. In part, it takes time does take time. In part, it takes time because you don't know what the big idea because you don't know what the big idea because you don't know what the big idea is when you start the process. is when you start the process. is when you start the process. >> Speaking of old magazines, I collect old >> Speaking of old magazines, I collect old >> Speaking of old magazines, I collect old magazines. Here, here's magazines. Here, here's magazines. Here, here's >> Oh, really? Wow. >> Oh, really? Wow. >> Oh, really? Wow. >> You have the first issue of George. >> You have the first issue of George. >> You have the first issue of George. That's like going for like $10,000 That's like going for like $10,000 That's like going for like $10,000 online right now. I've had this for 3 online right now. I've had this for 3 online right now. I've had this for 3 years, my friend. years, my friend. years, my friend. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> I'm a Kennedy uh historian. Um and I and >> I'm a Kennedy uh historian. Um and I and >> I'm a Kennedy uh historian. Um and I and I I owned a publishing company, so I had I I owned a publishing company, so I had I I owned a publishing company, so I had these. I still get my Thrasher magazines these. I still get my Thrasher magazines these. I still get my Thrasher magazines by Skate. by Skate. by Skate. >> Oh, it's amazing. >> Oh, it's amazing. >> Oh, it's amazing. >> I read that you um coal call I think I >> I read that you um coal call I think I >> I read that you um coal call I think I read this that you coal call 900 people read this that you coal call 900 people read this that you coal call 900 people to get a source for a book. Is that is to get a source for a book. Is that is to get a source for a book. Is that is that right? that right? that right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was actually >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was actually >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was actually So it was the Apple series. So the So it was the Apple series. So the So it was the Apple series. So the series is about like looking at the series is about like looking at the series is about like looking at the global economy through the lens of Apple global economy through the lens of Apple global economy through the lens of Apple and getting people inside Apple is to and getting people inside Apple is to and getting people inside Apple is to talk is really really hard. It's a very talk is really really hard. It's a very talk is really really hard. It's a very secretive company. And so what I did is secretive company. And so what I did is secretive company. And so what I did is I was like the only way I can do this is I was like the only way I can do this is I was like the only way I can do this is through like mass pitches. And so I'd go through like mass pitches. And so I'd go through like mass pitches. And so I'd go on LinkedIn and I look for people who on LinkedIn and I look for people who on LinkedIn and I look for people who were former Apple employees and I would were former Apple employees and I would were former Apple employees and I would email them and say, "Look, my name is email them and say, "Look, my name is email them and say, "Look, my name is Charles Doohig. I'm a reporter. This is Charles Doohig. I'm a reporter. This is Charles Doohig. I'm a reporter. This is what I'm working on. Can you please talk what I'm working on. Can you please talk what I'm working on. Can you please talk to me?" And the yield was really low. to me?" And the yield was really low. to me?" And the yield was really low. the yield was like three or 4% of people the yield was like three or 4% of people the yield was like three or 4% of people even bothering to respond. But all you even bothering to respond. But all you even bothering to respond. But all you need is two or three great sources to need is two or three great sources to need is two or three great sources to introduce you to other sources. And so introduce you to other sources. And so introduce you to other sources. And so this has always been my reporting this has always been my reporting this has always been my reporting technique is if you want to write technique is if you want to write technique is if you want to write something great, if you want to create something great, if you want to create something great, if you want to create anything that's great, you just have to anything that's great, you just have to anything that's great, you just have to waste a lot of time because you don't waste a lot of time because you don't waste a lot of time because you don't know what's going to pay off. You don't know what's going to pay off. You don't know what's going to pay off. You don't know which person you're going to email know which person you're going to email know which person you're going to email and they're going to say, "Yeah, I have and they're going to say, "Yeah, I have and they're going to say, "Yeah, I have all these files. I can share them with all these files. I can share them with all these files. I can share them with you." you." you." And so I think a big part of making And so I think a big part of making And so I think a big part of making important big things is being okay with important big things is being okay with important big things is being okay with spending an entire week and saying spending an entire week and saying spending an entire week and saying nothing productive happened during this nothing productive happened during this nothing productive happened during this week. I tried again and again and again week. I tried again and again and again week. I tried again and again and again and none of it paid off because that is and none of it paid off because that is and none of it paid off because that is the process of finding something the process of finding something the process of finding something amazing. amazing. amazing. >> And so it's interesting to say that like >> And so it's interesting to say that like >> And so it's interesting to say that like a lot of your productive time feels a lot of your productive time feels a lot of your productive time feels unproductive. unproductive. unproductive. >> Well, and I think that that's a key. So, >> Well, and I think that that's a key. So, >> Well, and I think that that's a key. So, so the idea that the that book is called so the idea that the that book is called so the idea that the that book is called Smarter, Faster, Better, and the idea Smarter, Faster, Better, and the idea Smarter, Faster, Better, and the idea behind it is sort of what I mentioned behind it is sort of what I mentioned behind it is sort of what I mentioned before that throughout history, the before that throughout history, the before that throughout history, the killer productivity app has been killer productivity app has been killer productivity app has been thinking more deeply, particularly when thinking more deeply, particularly when thinking more deeply, particularly when thinking deeply is hardest. thinking deeply is hardest. thinking deeply is hardest. >> So, tell me about your routine then. So, >> So, tell me about your routine then. So, >> So, tell me about your routine then. So, let's say you had a deadline for an let's say you had a deadline for an let's say you had a deadline for an article or you had a deadline for a article or you had a deadline for a article or you had a deadline for a book. What is your daily routine in book. What is your daily routine in book. What is your daily routine in order to think deeply? order to think deeply? order to think deeply? >> So, oftentimes, oftentimes I won't have >> So, oftentimes, oftentimes I won't have >> So, oftentimes, oftentimes I won't have a deadline. Like, I'll try and basically a deadline. Like, I'll try and basically a deadline. Like, I'll try and basically not have a deadline so I have all the not have a deadline so I have all the not have a deadline so I have all the time I need. But my my my process for time I need. But my my my process for time I need. But my my my process for thinking deeply is that I do to-do lists thinking deeply is that I do to-do lists thinking deeply is that I do to-do lists in a very specific way. My to-do list at in a very specific way. My to-do list at in a very specific way. My to-do list at no time has more than three things on it no time has more than three things on it no time has more than three things on it and hopefully it only has one and hopefully it only has one and hopefully it only has one >> for the day. For the day, right? So, so >> for the day. For the day, right? So, so >> for the day. For the day, right? So, so I have a memory list. All the things I I have a memory list. All the things I I have a memory list. All the things I want to get done go on my memory list want to get done go on my memory list want to get done go on my memory list and that's very long. But the night and that's very long. But the night and that's very long. But the night before, every night I look at the memory before, every night I look at the memory before, every night I look at the memory list and I choose what is the number one list and I choose what is the number one list and I choose what is the number one thing on my to-do list for the next day thing on my to-do list for the next day thing on my to-do list for the next day and I'll write that down. And this is and I'll write that down. And this is and I'll write that down. And this is actually a routine, a cognitive routine actually a routine, a cognitive routine actually a routine, a cognitive routine that forces me to think about that forces me to think about that forces me to think about priorities, right? And what I what I'll priorities, right? And what I what I'll priorities, right? And what I what I'll do is periodically during the day, I do is periodically during the day, I do is periodically during the day, I force myself to take a break and to just force myself to take a break and to just force myself to take a break and to just take a step back and ask myself like the take a step back and ask myself like the take a step back and ask myself like the way I spent the last hour, is it getting way I spent the last hour, is it getting way I spent the last hour, is it getting me closer to that one thing on my to-do me closer to that one thing on my to-do me closer to that one thing on my to-do list or is it actually me distracting list or is it actually me distracting list or is it actually me distracting myself? myself? myself? >> So, you only do one like you would >> So, you only do one like you would >> So, you only do one like you would consider a successful day just doing one consider a successful day just doing one consider a successful day just doing one thing. thing. thing. >> Yeah. I mean, it it's going to be a big >> Yeah. I mean, it it's going to be a big >> Yeah. I mean, it it's going to be a big thing, right? Like like my my to-do thing, right? Like like my my to-do thing, right? Like like my my to-do list, for instance, for tomorrow, list, for instance, for tomorrow, list, for instance, for tomorrow, because it's Saturday, but I'm going to because it's Saturday, but I'm going to because it's Saturday, but I'm going to be I'm going to I I have a to-do list be I'm going to I I have a to-do list be I'm going to I I have a to-do list for tomorrow. My to-do list for tomorrow for tomorrow. My to-do list for tomorrow for tomorrow. My to-do list for tomorrow is to come up with the outline of my is to come up with the outline of my is to come up with the outline of my next book. Now, I'm not going to be able next book. Now, I'm not going to be able next book. Now, I'm not going to be able to do that in a day, right? And that's a to do that in a day, right? And that's a to do that in a day, right? And that's a huge task, but I intend to sit down at huge task, but I intend to sit down at huge task, but I intend to sit down at 9:00 in the morning with a pad of paper 9:00 in the morning with a pad of paper 9:00 in the morning with a pad of paper and I'm just going to start outlining. and I'm just going to start outlining. and I'm just going to start outlining. And those outlines are going to be And those outlines are going to be And those outlines are going to be terrible. And then I'm going to get up terrible. And then I'm going to get up terrible. And then I'm going to get up at 10:30 or 11 and go get a snack. And at 10:30 or 11 and go get a snack. And at 10:30 or 11 and go get a snack. And I'm going to ask myself, am I writing I'm going to ask myself, am I writing I'm going to ask myself, am I writing stuff down just to write stuff down or stuff down just to write stuff down or stuff down just to write stuff down or is this actually getting me closer and is this actually getting me closer and is this actually getting me closer and closer and closer to understanding what closer and closer to understanding what closer and closer to understanding what the outline is. There is so much in life the outline is. There is so much in life the outline is. There is so much in life that can distract us from what's that can distract us from what's that can distract us from what's important. And the people who are most important. And the people who are most important. And the people who are most successful are the ones who empower successful are the ones who empower successful are the ones who empower themselves to be masters of their time themselves to be masters of their time themselves to be masters of their time and their attention. and their attention. and their attention. >> I think you, if I had to guess, you read >> I think you, if I had to guess, you read >> I think you, if I had to guess, you read a lot and you've written like three or a lot and you've written like three or a lot and you've written like three or four different books on like drastically four different books on like drastically four different books on like drastically different topics. different topics. different topics. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You got layers of like interesting >> You got layers of like interesting >> You got layers of like interesting knowledge. What have you read in the knowledge. What have you read in the knowledge. What have you read in the last year, whether it's a book or an last year, whether it's a book or an last year, whether it's a book or an article or a podcast or a YouTube video article or a podcast or a YouTube video article or a podcast or a YouTube video that you suggested I consume? that you suggested I consume? that you suggested I consume? >> So, okay. So, there's a couple of them. >> So, okay. So, there's a couple of them. >> So, okay. So, there's a couple of them. Um, there's this book named Voidar. It's Um, there's this book named Voidar. It's Um, there's this book named Voidar. It's actually a novel and it it came out like actually a novel and it it came out like actually a novel and it it came out like seven or eight years ago and it's seven or eight years ago and it's seven or eight years ago and it's written by a computer scientist. It's written by a computer scientist. It's written by a computer scientist. It's about AI and first of all, it's just a about AI and first of all, it's just a about AI and first of all, it's just a great novel. Like, it's just fun to read great novel. Like, it's just fun to read great novel. Like, it's just fun to read particularly because we're living particularly because we're living particularly because we're living through this age of a AI. He is the through this age of a AI. He is the through this age of a AI. He is the first writer I've encountered who tries first writer I've encountered who tries first writer I've encountered who tries to actually get inside an AI's head, to actually get inside an AI's head, to actually get inside an AI's head, right? And sort of say like if if people right? And sort of say like if if people right? And sort of say like if if people actually were interacting with AI, what actually were interacting with AI, what actually were interacting with AI, what would that look like? Because an AI would that look like? Because an AI would that look like? Because an AI isn't going to be like a human. It's isn't going to be like a human. It's isn't going to be like a human. It's going to be some something significantly going to be some something significantly going to be some something significantly different. So I found that book to be different. So I found that book to be different. So I found that book to be really really profound. And then in really really profound. And then in really really profound. And then in addition, let me think what else. So addition, let me think what else. So addition, let me think what else. So David Epstein, as I mentioned, he has a David Epstein, as I mentioned, he has a David Epstein, as I mentioned, he has a new book coming out called inside the new book coming out called inside the new book coming out called inside the box, which is about how constraints box, which is about how constraints box, which is about how constraints actually make us better. that like when actually make us better. that like when actually make us better. that like when we have constraints around us, when we we have constraints around us, when we we have constraints around us, when we have fewer resources than we need, when have fewer resources than we need, when have fewer resources than we need, when we create artificial limits for we create artificial limits for we create artificial limits for ourselves, it actually pushes us to be ourselves, it actually pushes us to be ourselves, it actually pushes us to be more creative, to be more productive. more creative, to be more productive. more creative, to be more productive. And I think that's been really, really And I think that's been really, really And I think that's been really, really important because we live in an age of important because we live in an age of important because we live in an age of surplus and excess, right? If you're surplus and excess, right? If you're surplus and excess, right? If you're starting an AI company, the first thing starting an AI company, the first thing starting an AI company, the first thing you do is you raise billions and you do is you raise billions and you do is you raise billions and billions of dollars. But what David's billions of dollars. But what David's billions of dollars. But what David's saying is actually avail yourself of saying is actually avail yourself of saying is actually avail yourself of those surplus of resources if you can those surplus of resources if you can those surplus of resources if you can get them. But when you're thinking about get them. But when you're thinking about get them. But when you're thinking about how to make decisions, give yourself how to make decisions, give yourself how to make decisions, give yourself constraints because it's the constraints constraints because it's the constraints constraints because it's the constraints that show you the right path forward. that show you the right path forward. that show you the right path forward. >> Dude, you're really fascinating to talk >> Dude, you're really fascinating to talk >> Dude, you're really fascinating to talk to. Did you um you make me want to to. Did you um you make me want to to. Did you um you make me want to become an author. Um become an author. Um become an author. Um >> you should be an author. You're >> you should be an author. You're >> you should be an author. You're fascinating to talk to, too. You have fascinating to talk to, too. You have fascinating to talk to, too. You have you have the natural disposition for it. you have the natural disposition for it. you have the natural disposition for it. The curiosity. The curiosity. The curiosity. >> I don't know if I've got the grip for >> I don't know if I've got the grip for >> I don't know if I've got the grip for it. It seems really hard. Did you for it. It seems really hard. Did you for it. It seems really hard. Did you for any of the your best works, so like the any of the your best works, so like the any of the your best works, so like the power of habit as well as some of your power of habit as well as some of your power of habit as well as some of your articles. Did you at any point were you articles. Did you at any point were you articles. Did you at any point were you like something here, something's here, like something here, something's here, like something here, something's here, this is going to hit? this is going to hit? this is going to hit? >> Yeah. So, I think what happens is very >> Yeah. So, I think what happens is very >> Yeah. So, I think what happens is very similarly I I'll say that oftentimes the similarly I I'll say that oftentimes the similarly I I'll say that oftentimes the chapters that get the most attention are chapters that get the most attention are chapters that get the most attention are the chapters where I was like, "Oh, that the chapters where I was like, "Oh, that the chapters where I was like, "Oh, that wasn't my best chapter." Like I I could wasn't my best chapter." Like I I could wasn't my best chapter." Like I I could have I should have done better and I have I should have done better and I have I should have done better and I cannot reread my stuff. If I reread my cannot reread my stuff. If I reread my cannot reread my stuff. If I reread my stuff, it's like, "Oh, this is so stuff, it's like, "Oh, this is so stuff, it's like, "Oh, this is so painful." Like, it's it's so bad. painful." Like, it's it's so bad. painful." Like, it's it's so bad. There's so I could have done so much There's so I could have done so much There's so I could have done so much better. But I will say that there is better. But I will say that there is better. But I will say that there is usually a point where I'm like, you usually a point where I'm like, you usually a point where I'm like, you know, I would actually read this. Like know, I would actually read this. Like know, I would actually read this. Like there's something going on in this that there's something going on in this that there's something going on in this that if I encountered it in the wild, I would if I encountered it in the wild, I would if I encountered it in the wild, I would read it. And that doesn't mean it's read it. And that doesn't mean it's read it. And that doesn't mean it's poetic. That doesn't mean it's perfect, poetic. That doesn't mean it's perfect, poetic. That doesn't mean it's perfect, but there's just something there that I but there's just something there that I but there's just something there that I find personally captivating. The trust find personally captivating. The trust find personally captivating. The trust I'm having, the bet I'm making is that I'm having, the bet I'm making is that I'm having, the bet I'm making is that if I find it captivating, there's going if I find it captivating, there's going if I find it captivating, there's going to be at least some other people like me to be at least some other people like me to be at least some other people like me who also find it captivating. So I wrote who also find it captivating. So I wrote who also find it captivating. So I wrote this um this article for the New Yorker this um this article for the New Yorker this um this article for the New Yorker about a guy named Chimath Paul Hopia. about a guy named Chimath Paul Hopia. about a guy named Chimath Paul Hopia. >> Yeah. The Spack thing. Yeah. It was I >> Yeah. The Spack thing. Yeah. It was I >> Yeah. The Spack thing. Yeah. It was I like that stuff. like that stuff. like that stuff. >> Yeah. Like I it was about Chimath and >> Yeah. Like I it was about Chimath and >> Yeah. Like I it was about Chimath and about and about um Spaxs. And it was about and about um Spaxs. And it was about and about um Spaxs. And it was kind of like Chimath is kind of like a I kind of like Chimath is kind of like a I kind of like Chimath is kind of like a I con artist. That's not fair. But Chimath con artist. That's not fair. But Chimath con artist. That's not fair. But Chimath is an operator, right? He's a guy who is an operator, right? He's a guy who is an operator, right? He's a guy who like sells a dream pretty actively. And like sells a dream pretty actively. And like sells a dream pretty actively. And so I wrote an article about him selling so I wrote an article about him selling so I wrote an article about him selling the dream and why actually sometimes in the dream and why actually sometimes in the dream and why actually sometimes in economic cycles like the salesman, the economic cycles like the salesman, the economic cycles like the salesman, the the the the [ __ ] artist is actually the the the [ __ ] artist is actually the the the [ __ ] artist is actually the most important figure because he the most important figure because he the most important figure because he helps everyone else believe in what the helps everyone else believe in what the helps everyone else believe in what the economy can be. And it was an article. economy can be. And it was an article. economy can be. And it was an article. It didn't do that well. Like not that It didn't do that well. Like not that It didn't do that well. Like not that many people read it, but I I loved it many people read it, but I I loved it many people read it, but I I loved it because I would have read the hell out because I would have read the hell out because I would have read the hell out of that thing. If I had come across that of that thing. If I had come across that of that thing. If I had come across that article in the magazine, I would have article in the magazine, I would have article in the magazine, I would have just read it like two or three times. just read it like two or three times. just read it like two or three times. That's ultimately what I'm trying to do. That's ultimately what I'm trying to do. That's ultimately what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to write something that like I'm trying to write something that like I'm trying to write something that like so amuses and delights me that I I would so amuses and delights me that I I would so amuses and delights me that I I would read it and so hopefully other people read it and so hopefully other people read it and so hopefully other people will too. will too. will too. >> What um Yeah, man. I I'm leaving this >> What um Yeah, man. I I'm leaving this >> What um Yeah, man. I I'm leaving this conversation invigorated. What conversation invigorated. What conversation invigorated. What >> Oh, good. Me too. >> Oh, good. Me too. >> Oh, good. Me too. >> What age did you become successful >> What age did you become successful >> What age did you become successful financially? financially? financially? >> Actually, extra power of habit. So, I >> Actually, extra power of habit. So, I >> Actually, extra power of habit. So, I would Let's see. So, I was probably would Let's see. So, I was probably would Let's see. So, I was probably late 30s. late 30s. late 30s. >> Were you like broke? No, I wasn't broke. >> Were you like broke? No, I wasn't broke. >> Were you like broke? No, I wasn't broke. I wasn't broke. I was working at the New I wasn't broke. I was working at the New I wasn't broke. I was working at the New York Times, but one of the reasons I York Times, but one of the reasons I York Times, but one of the reasons I wrote The Power of Habit was because I wrote The Power of Habit was because I wrote The Power of Habit was because I was really happy being a reporter and my was really happy being a reporter and my was really happy being a reporter and my wife was pregnant with our first kid and wife was pregnant with our first kid and wife was pregnant with our first kid and I I and we were living in New York and I I I and we were living in New York and I I I and we were living in New York and I was like, I don't know that we can was like, I don't know that we can was like, I don't know that we can afford to live in New York with kids on afford to live in New York with kids on afford to live in New York with kids on my salary, right? I'm a reporter. I I my salary, right? I'm a reporter. I I my salary, right? I'm a reporter. I I don't earn that much money. The only way don't earn that much money. The only way don't earn that much money. The only way that I can make this work is to go write that I can make this work is to go write that I can make this work is to go write books. Like, I I need a secondary line books. Like, I I need a secondary line books. Like, I I need a secondary line of income to be able to continue living of income to be able to continue living of income to be able to continue living in New York, to continue the lifestyle in New York, to continue the lifestyle in New York, to continue the lifestyle that we have. And so and it and and and that we have. And so and it and and and that we have. And so and it and and and I will say I'm curious if this is true I will say I'm curious if this is true I will say I'm curious if this is true of you as well. Like once I started of you as well. Like once I started of you as well. Like once I started making money, the the scarcity mindset making money, the the scarcity mindset making money, the the scarcity mindset was with me for a long time and actually was with me for a long time and actually was with me for a long time and actually is still kind it's still there. It's is still kind it's still there. It's is still kind it's still there. It's still there. If you grow up with still there. If you grow up with still there. If you grow up with scarcity, scarcity, scarcity, >> uh it doesn't go away. It's traumatic. >> uh it doesn't go away. It's traumatic. >> uh it doesn't go away. It's traumatic. >> And and it also teaches you that like >> And and it also teaches you that like >> And and it also teaches you that like money does not solve your problems. money does not solve your problems. money does not solve your problems. >> I think it I think it removes so many >> I think it I think it removes so many >> I think it I think it removes so many problems. It removes so many problems. problems. It removes so many problems. problems. It removes so many problems. And like I've talked about this on the And like I've talked about this on the And like I've talked about this on the podcast and this is a very douchy thing podcast and this is a very douchy thing podcast and this is a very douchy thing to say but I say it all the time. The to say but I say it all the time. The to say but I say it all the time. The people who say it doesn't make you people who say it doesn't make you people who say it doesn't make you happier I think are doing it wrong. It happier I think are doing it wrong. It happier I think are doing it wrong. It definitely makes you happier because it definitely makes you happier because it definitely makes you happier because it r removes so much uncertainty but we r removes so much uncertainty but we r removes so much uncertainty but we have quite similar tendencies. I've have quite similar tendencies. I've have quite similar tendencies. I've noticed this about you is that you're noticed this about you is that you're noticed this about you is that you're quite paranoid. Uh like we've agreed quite paranoid. Uh like we've agreed quite paranoid. Uh like we've agreed that you're one of the bestselling that you're one of the bestselling that you're one of the bestselling authors of all time and yet you say authors of all time and yet you say authors of all time and yet you say you're a horrible author and like you're a horrible author and like you're a horrible author and like there's this like I think there's this there's this like I think there's this there's this like I think there's this commonality not with all successful commonality not with all successful commonality not with all successful people. I know a lot of successful people. I know a lot of successful people. I know a lot of successful people that were like, I felt like I was people that were like, I felt like I was people that were like, I felt like I was great and I knew I was going to be great great and I knew I was going to be great great and I knew I was going to be great and and I was confident the whole time. and and I was confident the whole time. and and I was confident the whole time. But then there's a whole other subset of But then there's a whole other subset of But then there's a whole other subset of people, which I think I fall into, and people, which I think I fall into, and people, which I think I fall into, and it sounds like you fall into, which is, it sounds like you fall into, which is, it sounds like you fall into, which is, I'm [ __ ] I have to prove myself. I I'm [ __ ] I have to prove myself. I I'm [ __ ] I have to prove myself. I suck. I suck so much. I have to do this. suck. I suck so much. I have to do this. suck. I suck so much. I have to do this. It's all going to go away. And frankly, It's all going to go away. And frankly, It's all going to go away. And frankly, it's exhausting, but I do find it very it's exhausting, but I do find it very it's exhausting, but I do find it very useful. useful. useful. >> I totally agree. And I think of it as a >> I totally agree. And I think of it as a >> I totally agree. And I think of it as a cultivated anxiety. And I think you're cultivated anxiety. And I think you're cultivated anxiety. And I think you're right. I think it's actually a blend of right. I think it's actually a blend of right. I think it's actually a blend of those cuz if you asked me objectively, those cuz if you asked me objectively, those cuz if you asked me objectively, am I a good writer? I' I'd say look, am I a good writer? I' I'd say look, am I a good writer? I' I'd say look, I've been writing for 20 years, man. I've been writing for 20 years, man. I've been writing for 20 years, man. like I spend all my time thinking about like I spend all my time thinking about like I spend all my time thinking about how to how to write in ways that make how to how to write in ways that make how to how to write in ways that make people desperate to finish the chapter people desperate to finish the chapter people desperate to finish the chapter they're writing. So like objectively I they're writing. So like objectively I they're writing. So like objectively I am a good writer, but it's also this am a good writer, but it's also this am a good writer, but it's also this cultivated anxiety of like well my cultivated anxiety of like well my cultivated anxiety of like well my previous books were okay, but I want to previous books were okay, but I want to previous books were okay, but I want to try something new for my next book and try something new for my next book and try something new for my next book and that could fall on its face. I need to that could fall on its face. I need to that could fall on its face. I need to work really hard to make sure it work really hard to make sure it work really hard to make sure it doesn't. I think both of us probably do doesn't. I think both of us probably do doesn't. I think both of us probably do that, right? Like success is a that, right? Like success is a that, right? Like success is a combination of feeding the insecurities combination of feeding the insecurities combination of feeding the insecurities that push you to be better and then also that push you to be better and then also that push you to be better and then also taking comfort in these securities that taking comfort in these securities that taking comfort in these securities that you you can be better. You know what you you can be better. You know what you you can be better. You know what you're doing if you push yourself hard you're doing if you push yourself hard you're doing if you push yourself hard enough. enough. enough. >> The thing that I love about capitalism >> The thing that I love about capitalism >> The thing that I love about capitalism and business and it's like I'm not even and business and it's like I'm not even and business and it's like I'm not even into business that much. I just think into business that much. I just think into business that much. I just think that capitalism there they're some of that capitalism there they're some of that capitalism there they're some of the more practical ways to kind of bend the more practical ways to kind of bend the more practical ways to kind of bend the earth to your will. And so like what the earth to your will. And so like what the earth to your will. And so like what I loved about my journey of going from I loved about my journey of going from I loved about my journey of going from fat to skinny is like check this out. I fat to skinny is like check this out. I fat to skinny is like check this out. I manipulated myself. Like, isn't that manipulated myself. Like, isn't that manipulated myself. Like, isn't that awesome? I I changed my tiny world. That awesome? I I changed my tiny world. That awesome? I I changed my tiny world. That just being my body. I set a goal and I just being my body. I set a goal and I just being my body. I set a goal and I did it. did it. did it. >> And I that's what I like about >> And I that's what I like about >> And I that's what I like about entrepreneurship is um even if it's just entrepreneurship is um even if it's just entrepreneurship is um even if it's just a small business, it doesn't matter if a small business, it doesn't matter if a small business, it doesn't matter if it's what it is. It's just a really it's what it is. It's just a really it's what it is. It's just a really cool. It's just a very practical way to cool. It's just a very practical way to cool. It's just a very practical way to to to kick a dent in the world and say to to kick a dent in the world and say to to kick a dent in the world and say this is my world that I've created. Even this is my world that I've created. Even this is my world that I've created. Even if it's just my my bedroom. if it's just my my bedroom. if it's just my my bedroom. >> Absolutely. And that is that mastery, >> Absolutely. And that is that mastery, >> Absolutely. And that is that mastery, right? Mastery is envisioning something right? Mastery is envisioning something right? Mastery is envisioning something in the world and then making it real. in the world and then making it real. in the world and then making it real. and it is so satisfying. and it is so satisfying. and it is so satisfying. >> Well, thanks for doing this. I uh >> Well, thanks for doing this. I uh >> Well, thanks for doing this. I uh >> Thank you. Thanks for having me on. This >> Thank you. Thanks for having me on. This >> Thank you. Thanks for having me on. This is super fun. is super fun. is super fun. >> I hope you realize how much of an impact >> I hope you realize how much of an impact >> I hope you realize how much of an impact you've had on me. you've had on me. you've had on me. >> Thank you. I really appreciate you >> Thank you. I really appreciate you >> Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that and I love the show. I like saying that and I love the show. I like saying that and I love the show. I like I I love listening to the show. And by I I love listening to the show. And by I I love listening to the show. And by the way, when you come out to the way, when you come out to the way, when you come out to California, let me know. We'll we'll go. California, let me know. We'll we'll go. California, let me know. We'll we'll go. Do you surf? Do you surf? Do you surf? >> Poorly. >> Poorly. >> Poorly. >> Okay. Poorly. >> Okay. Poorly. >> Okay. Poorly. >> I I surf poorly every single day. So So >> I I surf poorly every single day. So So >> I I surf poorly every single day. So So we we'll go surfing together in Santa we we'll go surfing together in Santa we we'll go surfing together in Santa Cruz. It'll be fun. Cruz. It'll be fun. Cruz. It'll be fun. >> All right. Let's do it. All right. >> All right. Let's do it. All right. >> All right. Let's do it. All right. That's it. That's the pod.