How To Balance Your Relationships When Others Won't Change | Nedra Glover Tawwab

Key Takeaway

Stop making silent agreements in your relationships. When you take on roles without discussion—planning trips, doing laundry, organizing gatherings—you build resentment that eventually erupts. Instead, have explicit conversations about responsibilities and expectations. Renegotiate terms as life changes. The discomfort of speaking up now prevents explosive conflicts later.

Episode Overview

Therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab discusses her new book 'The Balancing Act,' exploring how to maintain healthy relationships while preserving your sense of self. She addresses the dependency crisis in modern culture, the importance of building a village rather than relying on one person for everything, and practical strategies for navigating the delicate balance between independence and connection.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How To Balance Your Relationships When Others Won't Change | Nedra Glover Tawwab from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today we're talking about something that I find inexhaustibly interesting and like perennially urgent. I sometimes call it the human curse. We need other people in order to be happy. And yet other people can sometimes be a gigantic pain in the ass. My guest calls this the balancing act. And that is in fact the name of her new book, The Balancing Act. said guest is Nedra Glover Towab who's coming back on the show for the third time which I'm very proud of.

Nedra Glover Towab, welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me for the third time. time. time. First of all, congratulations on your new book. new book. new book. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Tell me what you mean by balancing act. Relationships are a bit of give and take. They are about us and other people. Our lives are full of things. It's full of work and parenting, parenting our parents and so many things. And we have to figure out some sort of harmony to exist in this space of needing others and being there for them and what it looks like to have boundaries and also to honor other people's boundaries.

people's boundaries. people's boundaries. It's so tricky. I mean, you know, because you know, the temptation is given the messiness of human affairs to withdraw. Um, and and and the culture makes it easier than ever. Our technology and our individualistic culture makes it easier than ever to withdraw into whatever our tech silos or our workcoholism or whatever. And yet, that is the shortcut to an unhappy life. At the same time, once you engage with other people, it's like it's it's just this delicate dance. Yeah. I think there are, you know, there are some relationships where disengaging could be [clears throat] healthy, but I don't think we need to disengage and not be engaged in other areas.

So, the problem with the disengagement is we're not reconnecting with other people. So there are some relationships where you know I don't know maybe there is some toxicity or there is some abuse or those sorts of things where it may be healthier for you to not be in them but what are your other relationships um in your life? We have to have other people. We need lots of people. We can't depend on one person for everything. And I think right now what we're seeing is instead of working through our conflict and situations that can be salvaged, some of us are choosing to leave those situations.

But we have to determine what is fixable and what is not. You know, it's interesting you brought up this idea of like sometimes you you you may need to cut somebody off. I had one of your colleagues, your fellow one of your fellow therapists, um, Estair Pell on the show not long ago and she was saying, "Yeah, I get it. Sometimes you do need to cut people off, but it can backfire in that when you cut somebody off, they can subsequently occupy much more uh brain space for you, live rentree in your head in ways that they wouldn't if you had found some sort of accommodation with them.

Yeah. Yeah. It it it really depends on what the scenario is. And I think that's the real complicated piece that we are now looking to, you know, maybe listening to a podcast or looking at something online to determine what the solution for our very unique situation can be. And we have to figure out what can we live with, what can we live with without overthinking about the situation. So, you know, it's really about what is the damage that could come from this and what is the peace that could come from this.

And in some situations, you know, it's a it's a delicate line of this will actually cause more chaos and confusion and maybe it's something that I do do need to work through or, you know, there's there's also this this local distancing that we can do, right, where we maybe don't cut a person off, but we decide to speak to them a little less or allow them to to have more space um or time away from us. So, you know, every situation is so different, but I I agree with a stair that there are some times where ending the relationship, but the mental load of that relationship is still taking a lot of time um away from us.

I want to hear more about a term you just used, local distancing. That that means that is that your co coinage? Yeah, I [clears throat] just coined it right now. It's like, you know, it's like, you know, it reminds me of this concept of like desentering. You know, some people have this space in our lives where we allow them to be the main thing or we spend a significant portion of time with them and and just a reduction can give us a little more peace. Now, of course, it works best when you're in a relationship with a person who allows you to have that reduction.

Unfortunately, some people make it very uncomfortable for you to have distance in a relationship, especially when you know they're they're in your orbit. If it's, you know, your mother or father and they want a certain level of connection, it can be really tough. And you know, I believe now that's why kids are becoming more estranged from from their parents because the parents aren't allowing as much space or some of these family members aren't allowing people to have a little bit of distance that could keep the relationship going.

I think you've now brought us to one of the core ideas in your new book, which again is called the balancing act. You say that we are in a dependency crisis. What does that mean? I think we're developing a culture around not needing other people to be full human beings. Like we have this idea that we are self-made. We can do it ourselves when in actuality there are many people along the way whether we recognize them or not who constitute and build up who we are.

And it's very important to acknowledge that we're not operating alone. That we are operating in a greater system. Um, and sometimes that system is not, you know, just our families. It's, you know, sometimes it's our teachers. Sometimes it's people in our community. Sometimes it's friends and partners. And we need to be able to rely on other people because we live in the world with them. You know, it's, you know, when you're you're at the store and you're going through a door, you know, it's always helpful for someone to hold that door for you.

So, we need to develop more of that that handholding, that dependency on other human beings and not operate in the world as if we can exist without them because we can't. And my understanding is that there are and you'll you'll correct me if I'm misunderstanding things is that there are two sides to this dependency crisis. There is hyperindependence or what is sometimes called counterdependency. But on the flip side of that coin, there's also hyperdependency also hyperdependency also hyperdependency or codependency which can lead to inshment which maybe you you can define for us.

for us. for us. Yes. The imshment piece is is what I spoke about. You know, when I'm when I'm working with adults now, that imshment is leading people to want more disconnection because they don't see a way to have their own ideas, their own beliefs in a situation where someone is saying, "No, you have to do as I say, we have to be in this together in this, you know, sometimes unhealthy way." People do want to have some differences and be in the relationship with another person.

And this can, you know, it's not just family. I think sometimes when we're thinking about imshment, we think about families only. But I I've seen it happen in friendships where you start to make these lifestyle changes. Maybe you develop um more of an active lifestyle. And there's this idea that everybody else has to develop it with you, right? It's like we all have to do the same thing. We all have to eat the same foods. And if we don't, I'm going to keep talking to you to make you um think like I think and and exist how I am.

You must go run with me. You must go to this yoga class. And that creates a lot of friction in a relationship. And what's more helpful is to meet people where they are and understand that perhaps there is some space for you to have active group of friends. And then this is the space where you have all of these old memories and you all hang out and you play pickle ball, right? like there there is another meaning for this relationship. So just because people aren't showing up in all the ways that you need them to, it doesn't mean that they need to be discarded.

What is the role of of understanding our attachment styles as we navigate again what you call the balancing act between you know independence and dependence? Yes. Well, attachment styles, it can be really helpful information, but your attachment style is not fixed. You know, I do see a lot of information online that now, you know, people say like, "Oh, I'm an avoidance." So, basically, like, here's the plan about me that everybody should know. I'm going to cancel plans. I will not connect with you. Like all these things.

And it's like, well, it's information. And also you are you are the person who can choose to do something different with the interest of being in connection with others. So knowing whether or not you have a tendency to avoid connection or you get a bit anxious about connection or maybe you're a little bit of both like that's great information to have and also things to work through in your relationships with others. The history of that can be very broad and robust, but in our desire to be in relationships, it's always healthier to move toward being more securely attached.

So having an attachment style, it doesn't mean that you have to live with that forever, that you are forever doomed. It's just information for you to know how to handle something when it comes up, when you have that urge to, oh my gosh, I want to check my partner's phone. Like, what are they doing? Uh, that's my anxiety coming up. I feel insecure because I see this person on their phone and I make it about me. They must be doing something to me. I don't trust people.

It's not necessarily about the other person. So, attachment styles are helpful in that they can be used as information and we should not use it as a label to say that this is how I am and everybody has to accept it. So, just to put a fine point on that, there are, I believe, three or four attachment styles. There's secure, which is great. You you often these are these attachment styles are formed at at uh birth, or at least that's the the way it's often described in psychological circles.

You you have a secure attachment to your caregivers. Uh an anxious attachment, so where you you're not securely attached, an avoidant attachment where you're um it doesn't feel safe to attach. And then there's anxious avoidant, which is like a like the um you really hit the jackpot on that one. Um and what you're saying, I believe, is it can be good to understand what your attachment style is both in your family of origin and in your ongoing relationships. Now, however, you shouldn't view this as the final immutable verdict on who you are.

These things can change if you're anxious avoidant. You can move towards secure by following certain practices. Yeah. And and our attachment style may show up differently based on the relationship or based on the person. There may be instances where people are anxious in dating relationships but very secure in friendships, right? But if we see ourselves as I am this this one thing, I am anxious. um it's very hard to work through those other areas where you're actually displaying some fairly secure tendencies. And so it's it's a matter of if I can do it here, is it possible I can take these practices to these other types of relationships?

And when I say relationships, I think about dating, I think about friendships, I think about family, I think about work. Like we're in relationships with many things. You know, you can be anxious in your work relationships. If I don't hurry up and answer this email, my boss will be upset at me. Nothing has happened. But if you create this scenario over and over, it leads to a lot of burnout because you become this sort of person who's like always worried about doing a good job. So it is it is helpful to understand what your attachment style is, but also not to marry yourself to this idea that you have to continue to be that way because you recognize this set of behaviors.

We're very early in this conversation, but several times you've made references to people hearing things online. Um, you and I are both I I don't know how you'll feel about this term and I know I don't love it, but you and I are both kind of influencersque influencersque influencersque and you know we we are people interested in mental health who make content online and we try to do so in a evidence-based and helpful way. And yet I I do hear some sort of hesitation in your voice and in some of your statements about people leaning too heavily on the stuff they're hearing online and using it as either a diagnostic or a a modus operandi in their own lives.

Yes. I like to consider myself a a person of influence. Just not an influencer but a person of influence. Right. like I feel like people have influence. So I'm a person of influence. I started using social media to talk more about mental health and relationships in 2017. And I I think the landscape at that time um it was much smaller than it is now. And now there are more platforms where we can share this information. There are more therapists. There are more mental health advocates. Um, and we're not all operating from a evidencebased place.

We're not all operating with the same years of experience. And some people aren't operating with any experience, right? And so I think as folks are are looking at information, it's important to to take it and to, you know, maybe take it to a professional. Like if you look at some listical and it points out five ways in which you have ADHD without saying like yes I have this I read this thing. It's really important to take that to a doctor to to get a diagnosis around that.

Um it's really important to think about yes this person is saying this is how you could show up in your relationship with others but how does this apply to your life? this how does this apply to your life? Is it is it even possible? And so a bit of critical thinking I think would be helpful with with what we're seeing online. And and without us applying it, we need to think about is this something that actually has use for me or is this just general information?

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So, I'm going to start, if it's okay with you, I'm going to just start throwing some of these your way and and getting you to talk about them. Is that how does that sound? sound? sound? That sounds great. What is wise compassion? compassion? compassion? Wise compassion is being able to care about others without losing who you are and what your needs are in that care process. Unwise compassion would be being almost careless with what you offer and what you give. It is inconsiderate of yourself. In wisdom, we can look at our capacity.

we can look at what we're actually able to do and how we can show up thoughtfully. Um sometimes we look at things one way like if someone asks us you know hey are you available for a chat right now it's like I have to do it [clears throat] right now but could you do it in 20 minutes because you're actually not available. So what are your options here? What with with thinking about this relationship and how important it is? Is there another way for you to show up?

Yes, they're asking for right now, but assessing is the need actually immediate or is this something that can wait until after you have breakfast, right? So, um being wise about how we can show up with others. It's it's important to show up, but we want to show up well and not depleted, not um self-sacrificing, but in in care and love. Then for us to be able to do that, we sometimes have to to consider how we how we can. The Tibetan Buddhists actually put this a little bit more bluntly.

They they talk about wise compassion and then it's it's opposite, which is idiot compassion where you're giving away your time and resources um in ways that actually don't make sense. And actually there's there's some evidence, I'm sure you're aware of this, from the psychological research. Adam Grant, um, who's a very well-known organizational psychologist from Upupen, has been on this show many times, um, has done research showing that in a workplace context, being generous can actually lead to a lot of success, but only if you do it in a way that doesn't deplete your resources, that actually works with um your nervous system.

So, uh, there's a long way of saying there's a lot of evidence to support argument for wise compassion. Yes. Thank you so much, Adam, for all of your research. As a nonressearcher, but a therapist who applies it, I I like being able to to have the the research backing to the to the important points that us therapists make with our clients. Yeah, it's really helpful. Speaking of helpful, let's let's keep uh working through this voluminous list I've compiled of of things I want to talk about you uh with you from your new book.

Uh one of your other recommendations is to do the opposite of what feels natural. What's that about? that about? that about? Yeah, very very often we say stuck because the thing that we need to do is never the thing that we want to do. And so in trying to stay in our comfort zone, we get in the way of the change that could be helpful for us. Like when I'm when I'm working with a client and they're struggling to meet new people, it's like, okay, well, you go to yoga every week.

Why don't you try saying hello to three people? Oh, that's going to make me feel so bad. So this idea that if it makes me uncomfortable, I just can't do it. is not helpful to the to the goal that we actually want. You want connection. You have to get over that that hurdle of I have to feel really great about these things that I don't like. It's like you won't feel good about it. It it probably will suck the first few times and I think in a month you'll be going out to lunch with a few people and you'll forget about the whole experience of of the discomfort.

But you have to push yourself over that hurdle. And I I know it's not easy. I you know, but I do think it is a worthwhile challenge to remain in in community and contact with people that we have to do hard things sometimes and that includes not always being comfortable in every situation. Is the term of art here opposite action? Opposite action. Yes. It goes back to online there. You know, there's there's so much rhetoric that I see around like, you know, if it doesn't make you happy, don't blah blah blah.

And it's like, yeah, I don't think everything will make you happy, but it could be good for you, right? It's like, I don't want to cook my breakfast, but I need to eat my breakfast, right? So, it's like the pleasure is not always in the cooking, but boy oh boy, when I have that hot meal, it feels really good when it goes down. And so there are going to be things in life that we don't enjoy, that we don't love the process of, but the outcome, the outcome, the outcome, we have to suffer through the process of it.

And we can't have this this idea that, well, if I don't like the process that I'll never get to the big goal of whatever it is. Well, you know, I I would say that you have to push through the process of it and and do that really hard thing. talk to yourself, journal, um, you know, call five friends to keep you motivated or whatever you need to do, but keep that goal in mind and discomfort aside, do it. Speaking of social media, I've been heartened by a trend that I'm seeing, which is friction maxing, young people understanding that uh that modern life reduces friction to the point where um you can no longer handle um life's ups and downs.

And so that so you you see young people like actually um deliberately adding some friction into their lives. I find that um a little bit of hope and in what otherwise is like a cesspool. Um okay, next thing I wanted to ask you about the idea of building a v a village instead of overburdening one person. I think this can happen especially in romantic relationships where we the person is one is like the alpha and omega for us but but we need a village instead. Can you uh say more about that?

about that? about that? Yes, it it certainly happens u most often in romantic relationships where we have a partner and we're like this partner needs to be fun. They need to be creative. They also need to be active. They should have great business acumen and I'd like them to be able to dance, you know, and it's like [gasps] and a great listener and also can they do dream interpretation? You know, it's just like we're constantly adding to the list of what this one person needs to be and it overburdens that one person.

And it is possible for you to be in a wonderful loving relationship with someone, but maybe they aren't as active as you and you need to go somewhere else. Or maybe they don't love to go to concerts like you and you need to maybe go with a friend. or maybe um they can listen for about 20 minutes, but 3 hours is a pretty long time for them to, you know, pay attention to what you're saying. So, thinking about the person and not taking issue with their their limitations and what they offer, but also maximizing what they do offer, right?

Because everyone can offer something different. And I I think that you know even in our friend circles there is you know maybe a friend who is better than the other at one thing. You know there are some people who are great at care tasks. So if you if you have a surgery or if you if you need them for something they're like right there. But that might not be the person you call to talk about your long pay. They don't want to hear that. And we can't be upset at that person because they do show up for us, right?

It's they don't show up on this one thing. So, how can I have so many people in my life that if there's this little area where this person isn't doing it, someone else can someone else can, you know, take over or even feel that need. So, I'm not looking at this one person to be all the things that I need. We that's certainly a sign that we need more people. If I have one person who needs to be everything and do everything, I need more people.

I need to curate a bigger village. Yeah. And there's again there's data to support this as I understand it that marriages or romantic relationships where the partners have [snorts] uh large friend groups um are are happier and more successful and longived because you're not just relying on the other person to do and be everything for you. This next one I find particularly interesting. You say we should stop making what you call silent agreements. Yes. Yes. Yes. um going along with things we don't necessarily agree with but we do it anyway.

Very often we will get into relationships we don't actually talk through the terms of the relationship. There is no contract that comes with our relationships. We don't even update the terms. We just do things and then we get upset at the other person that they never figured out that we don't actually like to do these things. So, you get into this habit of being the person in the relationship who does all the laundry because you do the laundry, right? No one asks you to. You just do it.

And you're like, "Oh my gosh, like I hate doing laundry." Well, you've been agreeing to do it. Like, it's maybe it's not a role that you have to do. Maybe it's something that you can discuss in the relationship, but when you notice that there is an issue, it is very helpful, especially if you want to be in a relationship with someone longterm. If you're the person who's always planning the reservation or always scouting places to go on trips, like you have to have conversations about this and very easily we'll just keep falling into the role and secretly we're resentful because people don't appreciate it.

we don't like what we're doing. And it is an opportunity for us to to speak up to have some conversations around, you know, look, I did this thing for 10 years and, you know, I have more time and freedom and, you know, my I have kids now and I'm I'm doing all these other things and and planning another trip. I I suggest we use a travel agent. You know, like there's many ways to address it, but this doesn't need to be my thing anymore. I yeah, I went along with it.

Maybe I'm a little good at it, but there is some shift that that can occur um when we talk about what our options are. But, you know, usually it comes out um in this aggressive sort of way with people when we get fed up with them. We have tolerated something they didn't even know about for so long that when we finally speak about it is this big rage. It's like, I'm always planning the trips. you get on my it's like, whoa, I didn't I didn't even know you had an issue with it.

And so, we can prevent a lot of these explosions and and conflict that we might have and, you know, the passive aggressive actions if we talk about things a little sooner, if we, you know, um shift our our terms and and agreements in our relationships. This next one's um kind of related in my mind, but it's much deeper and more profound um and and I think more dangerous. You argue that that it's a mistake to project past relationship trauma onto new ones. You know, I I think that you probably have some research to support that, but um um um sorry, I'll stop doing that.

No, no, no. I I love it. I'm like, what is the research? Okay. I have to I have to use that with a client. Well, research says research says research says [gasps] yeah. Um I'll have them misquing some research in no time. Yeah. You know, I I think our past is always with us, but it's not always helpful in our relationships, especially when we're trying to do a new thing. And that's that's why, you know, therapy or some sort of support can be really important when we notice this pattern of having the same sort of experience with people or being the same sort of way, always being guarded, always um maybe giving too much to people, always allowing too much.

These are indicators that there is something um in your root system that needs to be pulled up. And when we continue to do that, we continue to be in these situations that we don't really want that you know that the the end result is is not good. And so it is it is to our benefit to figure out what stuff am I carrying along from relationship to relationship and how do I show up differently and you know it goes back to that pushing through your discomfort.

When there is a person who is accustomed to not accepting help from other people, it's very hard for them to be in a situation where someone is saying like, "Hey, let me help you with that." Like, as as much as it would, you know, be helpful to receive it. You know, you really have to let your guard down. And oh my gosh, oh, it hurts my stomach to say okay. But I have to say, okay, because my end goal is to not show up as this person who has it all together and this person who is needless.

I want to do something different. So, yeah, the past is is super important. It's with us. And when we notice that it is weighing us down and getting in the way of what we want for our future selves, we have to address it and figure out some sort of way to um release the release the hold that it has over us. I only own one pair of prescription glasses which I got late in life. My whole life my vision was was pretty solid. Later in life I I started struggling to see things at distance.

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warbyarker.com/happier. warbyarker.com/happier. That's 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at wbbyarker.com/happier. You said something there about asking or receiving help, which I think a lot of people struggle with. Um, but this actually a big emphasis in the book like not only receiving help but asking for help. If you forget the second part, I'll remind you later, but like why do we so many of us struggle with either receiving or asking for help? And then like how can we do it? Well, with the receiving, I think self-sufficiency is highly praised.

It is highly praised in our society that you can achieve things on your own. We have this mentality that being self-made is better than anything. Um, being a bootstrapper, being a person who, you know, when you when you look at, you know, I love to read the the credits of things and just see all the names. You know, I've I've looked at, you know, album credits and it's like, you did all this. It's like there was no engineer. Like, you have all these jobs. So, you know, sometimes we we we feel really good being able to say like, I did this.

And also, it is it is not a way that we operate in community. It doesn't allow people to support us because we will always need other people. I think we we're of course at our neediest, you know, as small children, but we get back to that space as we age. And the better that we can adjust to needing people right now, the better we'll be with it as we get older. You know, you do see so many people like fighting like, "No, I don't need help with that, but you're struggling." And I see it.

I've been that person. You know, sometimes when I walk into my office, I have way too many bags. And someone will say to me, "Do you need help?" And in the past, no, no, no, no, no. And things are falling out of the bags. It's like it's apparent I need help. That's why they're asking. And so now [snorts] one of the things I do now if people offer something like hey can I bring anything I even if I don't need it gra napkins you know I'd rather have an overabundance of napkins than to to always tell people no no no because what happens is we are training people not to help us and so over time they stop asking they don't even ask if you need anything because they start to understand you've got it.

they're not a per you're not a person that they need to worry about. And so this idea that we can figure it out on our own or we're doing things all by ourselves is it's impossible. Like there are so many even us talking right now. There are so many things that other people created, other people had their hand in to bring this conversation together. Like I did not make the computer, right? like we have so many people to to to even include in this and we have to be able to recognize that wait a minute I am a great and wonderful person and also I cannot do all of these things by myself.

So that is the the receiving of it. The asking, oh my gosh, the depletion of a strong person when they are put in a position to ask. I've known several people um who have broken a ankle or arm or something because they're doing something in some sort of way where they needed support like standing on a table, standing on a stool. and they might live with a person or there may be someone on hand they could call, but it's like, nope, I need to figure this out.

I shouldn't ask this person to come and help me. I should be able to do this. And it's like, you know, that ladder, there is a thing on the side that says that someone should hold on to it while the other person is is climbing up. So, I don't think that's there for no reason, right? So we have to think about like some of these things that we're doing as an individual, they're really meant to be done with others. And so we have to pull people in.

That's how people feel a part of our village by us being vulnerable enough to say, "Hey, I need help or here's what I need help with." And I think this whole thing around like I don't want to ask. Um, it's really, you know, it's really sad because because because sometimes it's us making excuses for why people can't help. We're looking at their life and we're saying, "Oh my gosh, well, Dan is busy. He's not available to help me with this thing because he has X, Y, and Z." And and meanwhile, you have, you know, enough free time to watch a whole series in a day.

So, this so this this idea that that people are unavailable. I was just speaking with someone who was telling me how well I don't want to ask them this thing because in the future I want to ask them this other thing and I said you don't think they could help you twice twice twice like this idea that there's a maximum amount amount of times that they can help you in this lifetime. We have to allow people to be there for us because we all need it.

So, it's just like this circle of of community and connection when we ask, we receive, we ask, we receive. Now, we don't need to overdo it. it. it. We don't need to always ask the same person. We don't even we don't need to always have the same ass, but we certainly need to be open to the idea that people can and will help us. And we have to be open to if we receive a no that there's someone else we can go to because we have enough people.

I think you have a a two-step process for asking for help. Yes. Yes. Be clear in your ask. Very often we'll stop asking people because we're not being clear about what the ask is. It's just like I need help. Well, with what? What do you want them to do? If you want them to deliver well, we have to provide some clarity around what the ask is. I have an appointment at 5:00. Can you give me a call at 4:30 to make sure that I've stopped doing this other thing to be on my call at a certain time?

Right? Like what is the ask? How detailed can you be with it? Um the the other thing with you know asking people is to give them the opportunity to do it without your intervention. Um know that they will not do it to your exact liking. Um they may do it better. Sometimes people have done things better. I've asked people and it it kind of irritates me because I do want to hold on to my belief. No, they can't do it and then they do it better than me.

is like is like is like they've beat me ating. It's like I I wanted to be the person who did this thing well for myself. But sometimes people can surprise you and we have to be patient with people in our ask. If we say hey I need help with and they don't deliver 100 100% effort. We you know again it's a conversation. is not an opportunity for us to say, "Oh, see, I knew it. No one can help me. This is this is what happens when you ask people to do things." Well, you've asked the wrong person.

You've asked a person who didn't have clear expectations in, you know, in the beginning. So, we have to be clear with people and we have to give them the opportunity to actually do it. And I'm going to add another one there. Sometimes we need to shift that ass to another person. I live in a very busy household. Uh I have packed days. My wife has packed days. Uh our son has packed days. And it can be very confusing and frustrating and sometimes conflict provoking to try to balance and merge all three of our schedules.

Which brings me uh to one of our sponsors today who have made a product that my wife and I uh have used for quite a while. It's called Skylight. And if your brain is at full capacity with to-dos and errands, birthdays, and the dinner plan for Tuesday, you might want to let Skylight Calendar handle the rest. It syncs your entire family schedule onto a sleek digital display so you can focus on more important things like spending time with your loved ones. We have one in a central place in our home, and it is incredibly useful to know what everybody's up to at uh various times during the day.

Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar which syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more, giving you customizable views for daily, weekly, or monthly planning. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-in calendars by going to my skylight.com/happier. skylight.com/happier. skylight.com/happier. Go to myskylight.com/happhappier for $30 off your 15-in calendar. That's m y ky l ght.com/happier. You've referenced yourself a couple of times in these in these answers where you talk about like your foibless.

Um I'm just curious like you've you've done all these years of of therapy, meaning you've been a therapist for quite a while and you um have written these books. Like, how good are you when the rubber hits the road of practicing what you preach? you preach? you preach? Oh, wow. I would say I'm pretty good now. You know, I I think in the past this this works, it feels so um I understand it so well because I've seen myself in it. So when I'm talking to a person who has, you know, maybe a boundary issue or who has an issue with asking, like I understand how hard it can be to ask.

And sometimes that's really helpful to people because there is this connection or nobody understands how bad this feels. And it's like, I kind of do. I I get it. And I think you can do it. I think you can do it because I've seen it be done. you know, you're not the only person to push past this this desire to be seen as the only doer in your life. You know, I you can do it because it has been done. Um, not just with me, but with tons of other folks.

I think so many of us have these these things that we feel like, oh my gosh, I can't do it. But hearing the story of someone else doing it, it's like, okay, yep, it's possible. You mentioned boundaries there and I was just reflecting upon the fact that the first time you came on the show was to talk about your book uh set boundaries find freedom. Um am I getting the title right? right? right? Set boundaries find peace and freedom. Find peace. Yes. You will get freedom from the boundaries.

boundaries. boundaries. Set boundaries find peace. And I'm just curious like do do we're here talking now about how to uh establish and maintain healthy relationships because it it really is a non-negotiable when it comes to human flourishing. You have helped popularize the notion of setting boundaries boundaries boundaries in this era where you know therapy speak is being used and misused in on social media. Do you worry that people are weaponizing the concept of boundary setting? setting? setting? There are so many different types of boundaries. Some boundaries are ending a relationship.

Some boundaries are about being more clearing your communication. Some boundaries are um taking a step back to observe your own behavior in a situation. So, as humans, I do think we can we can weaponize anything, right? like we can figure out a way to make it work for us even if the situation is is unhealthy. But at its core, I I believe that boundaries are a healthy practice. Um something I talk about in the balancing act is too many boundaries can keep people away from you.

you know it can be something that people start to um abhore like you know I can't even be around this person because you can't do this you can't do that if you say this or you know like all these rules about yourself it does create some inflexibility so it is important to even consider how do your boundaries impact your relationships is if if everybody is reporting the same experience with you could It be helpful to maybe renegotiate your boundaries with yourself. Like yourself. Like yourself. Like especially if you want to live in this world of connection, if you want to be in relationships with people, sometimes too high boundaries can be problematic.

You know, there are some people it's like you can't do this, you can't do that. And it's, you know, it's really hard to to be vulnerable and connect with that sort of person. So, you know, I I do believe that that boundaries are are very healthy, but I also think we have to re-examine them and revisit, you know, what we've been doing with our boundaries. boundaries. boundaries. There's another strategy in your in your book that I was a little humbled to see because it is not a problem I have as somebody who tendencies run toward the selfish.

Um but uh uh the the strategy in question is stop overconsidering others. Can you say more about that? Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. So you run towards like I'm not going to think about them in this situation. I'm going to think about me. Yeah. I've had to really train myself to be less self-centered um o over time. And so this trap, which I can imagine I know a lot of people who are people pleasers who fall into this trap a lot. Um, but it's not one I fall into.

In fact, I could do well to fall into it more often. The centering of others to the detriment of yourself is a big problem for some people when um your needs aren't being met or even thought about in a relationship or you're not even bringing them up as a way to maybe keep the peace or keep the other person happy or even stay the relationship. Over time, it does feel like you're in a one-sided connection because they're connected but you're not. And so that's why that that overconidering people becomes problematic because it creates this this idea that you are needless and that's not true, right?

It's just that the needs of the other person is always centered. It's always at the forefront. what they want to eat, what they want to do, where they want to go. Like all of these things are maximum importance while you know, you pretend or maybe it's not even important to you to have some ideas about what you want to see in a relationship. But it is important. It is important. And I again, you know, I think it's something that can be corrected. Just like you said, you tend to um lean toward, you know, maybe not thinking about other people and you have to take some effort to say, okay, what might they want?

With someone who's overconidering a person, it's really about like what do I want in this situation? Aside from what they want, they're saying they want this. What do I actually want? What do I need to advocate for? Um, which is interesting. You know, I think it's opposite ends of the spectrum and the healthiest, you know, place to be is maybe a little, you know, in the middle of, you know, their needs, their their needs are prioritized, your needs are prioritized. But we do want to recognize that relationships are two-way streets.

That is not just centering you. It is centering the relationship, not you or the other person. One of the things that's shining through in this discussion and in your work is that we can change. Um growth is possible. You you you may have past traumas, you may have personal predelections and um you know personality traits that seem hardwired, but through work, through therapy, through doing certain practices, you can have healthier behaviors and therefore healthier relationships. healthier relationships. healthier relationships. Yeah, we can change when we want to.

And I and I think sometimes unfortunately um we try to change other people because we want them to change and they may not want that. And so this is where you can gift them a book that talks to them about you know all these wonderful relationship things. But you know very often we're like you know I got I got to get this person a change and you know people come to therapy or people talk to me and they're like you know how do I get my so and so to do X Y and Z?

And I'm like, you don't you can't. And I I would love to tell you that there is, you know, something you can get them to do, but it has to be some sort of intrinsic motivation. I think even when people are forced in scenarios where they have to change, that change will be temporary if they don't truly want it. And so they have to be able to buy into it. you can change yourself, but this idea that we can make other people do these things is, you know, it's really hard.

And, you know, I I think the the sooner that we accept what's within our control, the the the better our relationships will be and the the more we can show up and recognize a person's limitations and, you know, operate in the way that we can with people. Isn't there like a bank shot we can make here? Like in in relationships, if we take it upon ourselves to change, not to meet their needs per se, but to meet our own needs and to be healthier and happier on our own side, it isn't it possible that that that can provoke change in the other?

Absolutely. You know, I I think some things can be contagious. They say that divorce is contagious. So when you know one person in the friend group gets a divorce and they start talking about oh I'm just sleeping so much better and blah blah blah other people are like huh divorce you know like it's it's this thing I'm not saying that about divorce I'm married but uh you know it's it's this thing that that does go around you know where you know if if a friend gets a new car it's like everybody gets a new car.

So, can kindness also be contagious? Can healthy boundaries also be contagious? Can asking for support also be contagious? I think so. If we can, if we can manifest and make all of these other things, this whirlwind in our friend groups and in our communities, I think being a good steward of your lawn can also be contagious. You know, I think there are some positive things that can also be contagious. I don't want to give contagion to to all of the the negative things in life. It's like, no, I think we can peer pressure people into into being a little more joyful.

So, yeah, I I I do think that when you make some shifts, it it shifts things in other people. And sometimes when we make personal shifts, it shifts our interpretation of other people. I think that's the biggest impact. It's like, you know what, this person used to really get on my nerves, but since I've been meditating for 15 minutes in the morning, they don't bother me as much. If meditation is your thing, or since I've been, you know, thinking about, you know, other people aren't responsible for my happiness, they don't get on my nerves as much, you know.

So the shifts that you make maybe maybe it doesn't change the other person. It just changes the way that you manage them, you think about them, and the way that you can withstand some of the things that they aren't changing. One thing I've heard, and I can't remember where I've heard this, and it may not be true, is that if if you do wish for some sort of behavior change on the part of your partner or a colleague, obviously, we've established that, you know, going through the front door and trying to cajul them or force them or pressure them is unlikely to work.

But one strategy that can work, and again, I'd be curious to hear if you think this is true, is positive reinforcement. like praising the behaviors you want to see to the point where they become natural on the part of the other person. Yes. And this is your podcast, so we're going to say it's true because you said it and you could just make anything true. Yeah, that's true. And um I agree with it. So I can come up with some studies to site if you want.

Please site some studies studies studies sometimes, you know, with with reasonable people. I think that's a great strategy. I think there are some people in the world I think we're we kind of operate from this perspective of, oh, people are reasonable and I'll try this thing and it'll work and it it does work with reasonable people, but there are some people I don't know what a clinical term would be, but You said it, I didn't. It's your pod. this positive reinforcement is not going to work.

It's just not, you know, you can't positive reinforce the out of someone. Um, it's just going to be in there because that's what they're choosing to be or that's who they are. Um, but for, you know, when we're in a situation with a reasonable person, yeah, when you're like, "Oh my gosh, thank you so much for these flowers. I [clears throat] love flowers. I know I didn't used to like them, but boy oh boy, when you bring them now, I just I take good care of them.

Thank you so much for delighting my day. Yeah, that makes a person feel good. Like, ooh, I delighted someone. Oh, yes, you did. You know, so positive positive reinforcement. Yeah, it does work um in some instances. And and we have to recognize when it's not working and and here we are overworking ourselves trying to get this person to to change and it's like, okay, they're not getting it. um we we have to notice that as well. I think it would be very helpful for us to again notice those limitations that this person cannot um or is unwilling to recognize this thing and do something different in this situation.

situation. situation. There are a couple of other things I want to get to before I let you go. One of them is this term that I find annoying uh because of its overuse, but I still think that what it's pointing to is really important and that is authenticity authenticity authenticity to you. What does authenticity mean and like how can we achieve it? Authenticity is Authenticity is Authenticity is being able to show parts of yourself to the world. Um, now authenticity does need boundaries because we may not want to go to work that has, you know, a uniform and say, well, this is how I show up in the world.

I'm being authentic. It's like, well, you're a postal worker. There is a uniform we have to wear, right? So, so you know there are boundaries that we may need with our authenticity, but ultimately it is when safe being able to show parts of ourselves to people. If we're never authentic, then that is probably a problem. Um, we have to figure out which people in what situations we can be authentic and we have to even do that with boundaries and be considerate of what the space will allow.

You know, I think in in family relationships and relationships with our partners and friends is where that authenticity is really important. It helps us deeply connect with people. You know, there's there's nothing worse than being in a relationship with somebody and you don't really know anything about them or you don't know what they like or who they are. It's like, who have I been talking to? What is this person about? So, for people to feel connected to you, they need to to to know who you are.

And that's where that authent authenticity comes in. And that's why it's important. You have a whole appendix in the book about something that can really block healthy relationships and that is technology. Why did you decide to include this whole appendix in the book? We believe that technology makes us more connected in some ways like we can email people, we can DM them, DM them. We are, you know, friends with thousands of people and yet we have no one to call when we have a hard day.

Yet we have, you know, no solid connections in real life. We don't know our neighbors names, but we know the lives of all these parasocial parasocial parasocial relationships we've built with, you know, so and so celebrity online. So technology is is good when used well. We should be on social media if we want to. We should figure out some ways to use technology to our advantage. Um, but we should also notice when having a phone and and you know, browsing while we're in conversation with people is problematic.

We should also notice when our kids are trying to get our attention, but we're so deep in our phones that we're not paying attention to them. We should also notice that we are the person who's sending the email at 11 p.m. during someone else's family time. You know, we we have to be mindful of of of how to be connected and also when to disconnect with technology. So, what are your recommendations for smart tech and social media use um you know in the context of like you know living a healthy life?

Well, I say humans over devices. So, um if we are with people, you know, putting them away, uh maybe not at home because we're always with people at our home, right? But if we're in social social gatherings or if we're with friends, when we're at the dinner table, when a person is talking to us, putting the device away so we can give them eye contact and pay attention to what's happening because we can't really multitask. Something is not being heard. Either it's the video on our phone or the email we're not really paying attention to because we're listening to this other thing.

But we need to figure out a way to be in connection with people, especially when they're in our presence. I think that's one healthy thing. Um, I'm noticing that, you know, the overuse of technology is like zapping our attention span. We have I'm I'm seeing more people now who can't watch a show for an hour, right? because there is this this distraction with I have to check my email, I have to be on this thing, I have to multitask while doing this thing. And so the idea of sitting still without the device um is like I can't even do it.

Like I I have to be able to be accessible. So, you know, thinking of areas where you need to call back your attention, where you need to leave the phone out of the room, is it disturbing your sleep? Is it disturbing your ability to read a book? Is it disturbing your ability to watch a show or do a puzzle or be engaged in whatever thing you want to be engaged in? What are the the limitations that I need to set with, you know, this device? Um, when we are, you know, using social media to to connect with others, how are we pulling those connections offline?

Are we just saying this is my social media friend or could this be your friend in real life? How do we even go deeper there? You know, there are there are ways to if you're in a Facebook group or if you're constantly commenting on someone's thing, have you ever been to their event in person? Have you ever said, "Hey, I noticed you also live in the same city as me. Is it possible that we can go get coffee?" Because it it's great to be in this, you know, this orbit of online experience.

And sometimes we want to keep it there. Uh but there are other times where we are without people in the real world because all of our people are in the digital world. So we have to pay attention to what's needed where. Uh the other thing is and and lastly, you know, the the biggest thing I think that I'm seeing is I think that technology is is so massive on top of what we already have to do as adults and there are new expectations around this constant connection to all the things.

I emailed you. I sent you a message here. Why didn't you respond? It was 700 p.m. but I sent it on this thing and you have this app. And it's like, oh my gosh, can we just go back to answering machines because the desire for people to immediately respond is increasing. It is it is our new expectation expectation expectation um that that people are constantly connected and it's almost like people have to make some grand statement around like hey I'm not going to be available from 5 to 7 every you know it it has to be this grand thing because if not it's almost considered rude.

It's like I I pinged you on the thing and you didn't respond within 5 minutes because we all know everybody has a phone. They're using the phone while watching TV, going to the bathroom, eating their food. Like, why aren't they paying attention to me? So, it's this over attention that we now have to offer. And so, figuring out what are my limitations with technology. What things do I need to put into place so that I have some separateness from it and I'm using it well for connection?

Last question for me just as an asterisk on that. I always end with two questions, but before I get to those two questions, I have one last question, which is I can imagine people listening to this conversation and some of them thinking, well, I'm lonely actually. I don't I don't know anybody. And you you referenced this a little bit earlier when you were talking about um saying hi to people at yoga, but what what can we do if we don't feel like we have enough relationships?

relationships? relationships? We have to go out and meet new people. And you know I I think that is hard for some of us. You know it goes back to that you know doing the thing that feels uncomfortable. It starts with saying hello and looking friendly. Um going back to technology for a moment. If we go to the same you know coffee spot maybe a few times a week but every time you go your face is in your phone. it's not giving the impression that you're open to connection.

And so, you know, if we want to meet people, we have to think about the ways in which we're getting in the way. Am I quickly leaving um my desk after work or am I sticking around and have a little bit of small talk? Even if I don't like small talk, small talk has a purpose. It takes you to the deeper talk, right? So, if I want to meet new people, I have to be in scenarios where I'm meeting new people. Most cities, here's a good digital connection.

Most cities, they have groups, they have, you know, connection points, whether it's a run club, a bike club, a skating club, like anything you could, you could sit with people and do puzzles. Like, there are all sorts of things that we can connect around. How do I find these things and then meet these people in the real world? How do I take that group of 10 and discover, oh my gosh, there are two people there that I really get, you know, I get some some positive feelings towards how do I approach them about, okay, let let's go to dinner.

Let's do this other thing. It's about meeting people and maintaining those relationships. Sometimes it's not, oh my gosh, I can't meet any new people. It's I don't know how to maintain relationships. 10 years ago, I had a best friend. and we lost contact and I haven't talked to this person anymore. Well, in that situation, can you text that person today? Can you reconnect with people and, you know, maybe have a statement, hey, we haven't talked in a year. We haven't talked in 6 months. I got really busy and things just fell by the wayside, but I would love to reconnect with you.

So, knowing how to not only meet people, but maintain those connections is important. Nedra, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we have not gotten to? gotten to? gotten to? I think we just got to it. I'm so happy you brought up loneliness. Okay, that leads me to my final question, which is can you please remind everybody again of the name of your new book, your prior books, where they can find you on social media, anything else you you've got going on that we should know about.

know about. know about. Yes. Uh, my new book is The Balancing Guide. my older books is um set boundaries, find peace and drama free. I am Nedra Towab on all socials. It's always such a pleasure to talk to you. Um I really appreciate your time. Congratulations again on your new book. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People.

Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before I let you go. Our summer Sunday live series is officially underway every Sunday at 4 Eastern. You can join the legendary meditation teacher Sharon Salsburg for a deep dive into the Buddha's cookbook for happiness, the eight-fold path. You can catch up on replays if you've already missed a few of the sessions. And you can join the next live meditation and Q&A only on the 10% with Dan Harris app.

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