How Seth Meyers Stays Joyful in Dark Times

Key Takeaway

Late-night host Seth Meyers reveals his secret weapon for managing workplace stress: his producer Mike Shoemaker serves as his "release valve" - a designated person he can yell at (not yell to) to discharge frustration before it affects his team. This prevents emotional contagion in leadership. When Shoemaker was away for knee surgery, Meyers threw a pen that exploded on the wall - proof the system works. The lesson: Leaders need a trusted outlet for processing stress privately before it impacts their organization.

Episode Overview

Seth Meyers discusses his journey from struggling SNL cast member to confident late-night host, sharing insights on managing anxiety, maintaining joy while covering difficult news, parenting three children, and building a healthy workplace culture. He reveals how he navigates the demands of daily television, processes stress through designated outlets, and maintains perspective through meditation and family life.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How Seth Meyers Stays Joyful in Dark Times from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Seth Myers, welcome to the show. So happy to be here, Dan. Pleasure to have you. Okay, I have a million questions for you. I've got time for nine. Okay, then I have Do your hit me with your best nine. Yeah, I'll I'll whittle it down. Okay. Just c just as a topline question. I don't think this was always the case for late night hosts, but now if you're a late night television host, you are like in the news cycle deeply. Yeah, that's a little strange. Deeply.

And so my my question for you is like how do you keep your together given that you you are by necessity drinking out of the fire hose? Well, one of the loveliest things is an honest answer to where do I get my news is I get it from late night with Seth Meyers in that I show up in the morning and my very talented writing staff has written a first draft and so often I'm like, "Oh, that's really Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm glad we're talking about this." You know, You know, You know, meaning you have not encountered these items in the news before you've walked into 30 Rock.

I will say I do a little bit but over the course of the weekend what I've learned and it is a gift. Uh by the way it's a a pirick victory Dan in that the world is such right now that you don't actually have to pay attention to Saturday's news because it is such old hat by Monday. Like so much is happening now. You know when this show started in 2014 I really did think it was my job to like pay attention to news over the course of the weekend so I could be ready for Monday's show.

And now it's sort of like late Sunday. You can sort of tune back in late Sunday and and that's ultimately what you can talk about on Monday. But um yeah, I mean, am I part of the fire hose? I am. But I try not to get too uh caught up with it in that when I'm in the office, I'm paying very close attention to what's going on in the world. And then when I'm out of the office, I I try to focus on being a part of a operational family.

And you're you're pretty good at the like digital hygiene when you're with your family. I am I would say you know if I have a digital hygiene problem when I'm out of the office it's probably like more sports related than like you know the actual the actual news. So I can have wild swings uh wild mood swings but uh they're thankfully not due to anything that's happening uh in DC. Right. It's pegged to your fortunes on FanDuel. FanDuel. FanDuel. I happy to say it's uh it's more due to like real loyalty as opposed to any wagers.

wagers. wagers. I'm not I'm not I'm not a gambler, but uh I've I've I've bet the entirety of my heart on a few uh sports teams that uh have not come through with me. Which are those teams? Pittsburgh Steelers. Pittsburgh Steelers. Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Live and die with the Pittsburgh Steelers. And then I have a healthier relationship with the Boston Red Sox after, you know, the incredible uh run we had post 2004. I I kind of feel like that's everything I had ever wanted as a kid.

And now I'm going to allow myself to have freedom from that. Um, so just back to late night, how uh because you are, you said before you're kind of part of the fire hose and I don't know exactly what you meant by that, but like you you are a vector of information at this point, which late night TV shows have become. And do do you think about respon your responsibility in that light? Like a do you have a desire to be like more heat than light or is it just, you know, make good jokes and keep it moving?

Oh, no. I we definitely feel like Well, it's interesting cuz like we we don't want to like turn our backs on things that we think are bad and things that are important because of who they're affecting, but we definitely and certainly um post this last election, there's a real effort to be joyous about the way we perform the show. Like uh uh that maintaining joy is a really important uh piece of strength to have. when people take your joy away, that's a that's effectively a good sign that you've lost.

And uh and so again, like we're not like, hey, we're gonna the show is not going to be about bad things anymore. That's how we're going to be joyful. We're like, no, we're going to talk about bad things, but we're going to make it very clear that we're having fun. Uh we like being in an audience full of people uh that has chosen to spend time with us. And uh everybody here knows it's comedy show. So we're going to make sure that even when this stuff is serious, we're being uh um you know finding ways to often times in like tangents or dumb impressions or like you know silly visual gags to like release the stress and the pressure.

And look, it's a fine line because you know I realize half of what I'm saying is like oh be irreverent and the other half is like these things are really bad and serious and and we can't take them uh lightly. But, you know, ultimately that's been the the uh alchemy we're trying to hit uh week in and week out. And I do think like, you know, uh since last November, we're we're getting pretty good at it. We feel like we're delivering on it uh pretty consistently.

Can I I'm going to deliver a fullthroated defense of what you just said and then you can react on the other side. And I know I'm I'm supposed to be asking questions. asking questions. asking questions. No, no, I'm not very excited. It's like I like that you're now my legal counsel. What Seth meant to say was um there is a great quote from and I I'm going to mangle the quote and I can't even remember who said it but the it's something like engage joyfully in the sorrows of the world.

Oh, it's really good. As you said, if you take away the joy, you are depleting our resources to engage effectively. engage effectively. engage effectively. Yeah. So, I actually think there's a real public service in what you're doing and it's not something to be like, you know, sheepish about. Well, I you know, it's always interesting because, you know, again, I've been doing this for a long time and people, you know, since weekend update days have said like, "What do you think about people who get their news from you?" And I've always said like, "Ah, don't get your news from me.

Like, we're a good secondary source. You know, get your news." And then but this is a different thing that I've like come to appreciate which is like people aren't coming to get their news from me but like they're coming to like get a a collective shared joy from a thing that otherwise would be um you know depressing and I think sometimes you know there is a real strength to knowing you're not alone knowing that your uh feelings about things are uh not solitary and you know there was this and again there sometimes it's just in the vocabulary we used to talk about things which is like, oh, you know, you're living in a bubble or uh you know, it's an echo chamber.

But like there is something to be said for no, you come here and we're going to lay out things that based on like this moral code that we all thought we shared. like some of us still share it and we're in a place where we're allowed to say like this is bad and this is crazy, but it's also silly and here's a joke about it and uh and yeah, like it's not that we're just going to throw our hands up and say this is how it is now.

I I completely agree. It's like a kind of sustenance like we're in it together. We can laugh at this thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's re-engage from that standpoint. And I'm very frustrated that I have now said it twice and you said it the best in your middle in your very short middle section. You were very succinct about it. So let I for the listeners I also think Dan said it best. I suspect that might be the pattern throughout the rest of this interview. So let's see how it goes.

Okay. Okay. Okay. I'll do it really long and I'll do it really long and then you just boil it down for Okay. So, let me ask um you know, you'll you'll brush me off if I get too personal here, but you have spoken publicly about kind of your inner atmosphere, having an inner critic. You also wrote a book for uh for kids back in 2022. I believe it's called I'm not scared, you're scared, where you talk about anxiety. So, you're on the record talking about inner critic and also having anxiety.

I just be curious like what how salient are those phenomena for you internally? These days it's better. Look, I think the hardest and the hardest time I ever went through was getting your dream job of SNL and then showing up and realizing everybody there there there was also like the best person the last place they were and that uh you know your your bag of tricks is now seems very meager compared to the talent you're sort of stacked up against. And I was probably hired for the wrong thing when I got hired at SNL because, you know, I think if Lauren Michaels could go back in time, he would probably say, "Oh, that guy will be a good writer as opposed to a cast member." And so I had to sort of like uh back my way into the job I was right for.

And that was a really rough five years of finding my way there. And then you get a show like Late Night and it's the same thing which is you spend the first couple of years aiming for sort of competence so they don't take the show away. And it's only after you after you after you feel your legs underneath you that you actually start trying to make it the show you want it to be. And uh and those you know those were rough years too but nothing nothing ever compared to the first five years at SNL.

And I do think that having survived those and look, it's why so many people I think thrive in their years after working at that show is they've already been through the worst gauntlet they're ever going to go through. What makes it such a gauntlet? You know, it's a meritocracy against the very best people in the world. So you it's hard to say like I was treated unfairly. You know, we all get our at bats every week. you know, you'd write sketches, you'd read it at the table, and it was pretty clear to me and and obviously everybody else like, "Oh, no, that wasn't in the best 10 things this week, you know, and then, you know, that sort of happens week in and week out, and you realize, you know, certainly there are very kind people there who are doing their best to get the best out of you, but at some point, like, you know, you're just they're not going to put you on TV as a favor to you." And for me, the hardest time, you know, and I, again, I've talked about this as well, was like, you know, I was uh in a cast where the other male c, you know, the other male cast members were like Will Forte, Andy Samberg, Bill her, Jason Sedakus, Fred Armson, you know, Kenan Thompson, and on any given, you know, I was writing sketches and I remember I would be like, man, I would be my seventh choice, you know what I mean?

And so, and I've got a rooting interest in me. So, you know, one office over somebody who does not have a rooting interest in me, I'm definitely their seventh choice. And so, it was just not seeing a path out. And also, it wasn't that I thought, "Oh, if only they saw in me what I only they if only they saw in me what I saw in me." I was like, "No, I see the same thing. It's just like not quite good enough." good enough." good enough." Is it true?

Uh, I think there I read that there was an incident where you punched a very small hole in the wall. I opened a door. so fast that the handle on the other side went through the ball. So, it was like a handle shape hole. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's that's a little less aggressive. It was a little less. It was pretty aggressive, though. I mean, I would have loved to have done it with my fist. Let's just put it that way. What was the approximate cause of of the door incident?

door incident? door incident? I wrote something that I did think should have made the show and it didn't make the show. And uh and I and then my uh my producing partner now, Mike Shoemaker, who was a producer at Assin all the time, I remember he said, "Uh, I'm not going to have that hole fixed because I want you to have to look at it every time you're in your dressing room and remember uh what a baby you were." And then, by the way, this is just just to make it clear that I haven't I'm not fixed.

Uh the same the self-same shoemaker who's now a producer on late night, he recently had to leave. He's like, he's my next door neighbor and my dearest friend. And every time I feel like I'm about to melt down, I just go into his office and I yell in that room and uh and he just sort of like absorbs it. I'm not yelling at him. I'm never mad at him. I'm just sort of like yelling to get it out. Remember those old cartoons where like people would like yell into a bottle and then the bottle would have the screams and like they'd yell they'd bring the like it was like to not wake up a baby or something and then they'd bring the the screams to the top of the mountain and let it out.

You'd hear them. That's like what Shoemaker does. He's like the bottle I yell into and then he brings it to the top of a mountain so nobody else that I work with hears the yells. So, but it's a very like he's my release valve and he had a two he missed two weeks for a knee surgery and I made it all the way until like the last day of the second week and something happened. And I was so mad I didn't have Shoemax office to go to and I threw a pen against the wall and it exploded and left like a roar shack ink blot on the wall and uh he got a plaque instead of cleaning it he put a plaque next to it and said this is what happens when shoemakers away.

So basically every like over the course of I'm coming up on like 25 years in the building and uh basically every room I've ever been in has some mark of me uh uh being petulant. I don't remember the cartoons you're referencing, but I do remember as a kid, I think I'm a little older than you, there was a character named Willie Whistle, and he would argue, but in a whistle. whistle. whistle. Oh, wow. I Which I always thought was like hilariously ridiculous. hilariously ridiculous. hilariously ridiculous.

That does seem like something a very like forward thinking couple therapists would make to people do, like just give him whistles and be like without words. Without words. Without words. Without words. No, he was doing this with pursed lips. Oh, wow. This wasn't an actual whistle. No. Oh wow. It's a shame. It's a shame he didn't hit it bigger. We'll leave that to the history books. But just back back to your petulence and I share it that this is a has I share it that this is a has been a lifelong struggle for me as our mutual friend uh my brother would would tell you.

How do you manage that now especially given that you're you are the leader of a you know of a pretty large organization? organization? organization? I'm really good. I mean, I don't know if I would be as good without uh Shoemaker as a real Seth Whisperer, and I'm very lucky to have him. But I am cognizant of it being a topdown situation where everybody, you know, whatever the host thinks they can get away with, everybody else thinks they can get away with. And so, uh, I'm very lucky to work at a place where, you know, we all, uh, treat each other with a lot of, uh, a lot of decency and respect.

And it's the kind of place that everybody loves to come to every day, myself included. And I should also say like it's not like I'm uh you know biting my fist 10 times a day because people make mistakes. It's like one of the problems is like people here are so good at their jobs that when something goes wrong like I'm shocked and and often that's what catches even me off guard. It's really nice. And uh I will say like just to any parent who's listening it's harder to have children than it is to have a talk show.

Like just as far as like temper stuff, you know. Do so for you that's the the parenting stuff which you've now done two comedy specials which everybody should watch and I will put links in the show notes. You've done two comedy specials on parenting. So is that a uh more difficult crucible for your temper than work? I think yeah ultimately like because at work you're you're still dealing with like adults you know like and and so the the you know for me like uh you know what uh my wife and and three children would say is like oh no he he definitely can't act at the show the way he acts at home cuz he's a lunatic.

lunatic. lunatic. What would they point to as examples of lunacy? lunacy? lunacy? I don't know. It's interesting. I've been doing a bit in my stand up now about how my brother and I were really scared about my dad losing his temper. Like it was the kind of temper that was like intimidating. And I feel like I've inherited my dad's temper, but my kids it's just like very like neutered. Like they just don't think I'm when I like lose my temper and they like all laugh at me like this clown.

which is of course like a very I mean but it's a very healthy reaction to your dad leaving the temper because it's like hey one you look dumb and two it's not working but it is it's just like that thing of like trying to get you know three kids out the door is sometimes so much harder than um writing and performing a a talk show on network television. television. television. What are their ages? 9 seven and four. Okay. So you're you're in it. Yeah, we're in it.

I mean, and by the way, they're really good ones. I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't trade any of them in. in. in. Are there you mentioned getting the kids out the door. Are there other aspects of parenting that are nails on a chalkboard for you where you that you know, you're just on tilt? I'm trying to think. They'd love to come on, Dan, and do a rebuttal episode where they list them all. It's um I just sometimes uh can't believe like I'll say my oldest son's name six times in a row and then I'll just say, "Do you even do you hear it?" Just out of curiosity, do you hear it?

And uh also a a thing you learn pretty quickly is like they don't like sarcasm isn't an effective tool, you know, like when you're when you're trying to get your kids to do something like a withering put down doesn't have the uh the effect you you might hope it would with an adult friend. When my son was four, he's 10 now or he'll be 11 by the time this airs. Actually, you met my son once. Yeah. When he was four, we took him for one of those fullblown hearing tests.

Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. And his hearing was perfect. But he was just ignoring us all the time. And that persists until this day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like my voice is a dog whistle and he's a cat. I I have a interesting thing now, which is my is my is my uh kids are obsessed especially with uh my father-in-law because they see him a lot. he's a big part of their life. And uh as a as a current dad and I watch how his daughters react to him, I'm like, "Oh, it just skips a generation." I think like, you know, my kids hear my their grandparents talk, but they don't hear their dad talk.

But like their kids will one day be fascinated by everything I have to say. I just have to wait for that. that. that. The best B2B marketing often gets wasted on the wrong people. I can't tell you how often I'm scrolling and I get served ads for stuff I have no interest in. So, when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over a billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad bots.

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imperfections. imperfections. Yeah. I mean, I think that like doing a lot of I'm also like re you know, I'm very aware that like one of the risks of like uh mining your family for content is that they will one day uh consume it as they are older. Like Alexi and I have a nice understanding whereas, you know, my wife has veto power over anything I tell uh or anything I say about her, whereas kids obviously less so. And so it's very important for me to always uh certainly with more often than not make myself the punchline of the jokes um when I'm talking about being a parent as opposed to the kids um because I would like them one day to watch and be like oh it's nice that he knew it's nice that he knew his shortcomings.

It is really fun to do. And you know as far as meditation like I will say that like you know Alexi and I started doing it. I don't quite know how often she does it anymore. I don't do it with enough regularity, but I've never done it and thought it was not a positive. I just have a hard time getting in the scheduled rhythm of doing it. That is super common. And I don't even think it's that big of a problem, per se. Like, you know, whatever dose.

It's good at any dose. Yeah. And it's it's a little bit like exercise. It's, you know, I don't think it's like, ah, the bummer was I only, you know, I only did it once. I should have done it zero times. like, "No, once is better than zero." What flavor did you do when you did it? I don't actually know. And I think this would be uh one of the things my wife would point out, which is we had a full instructor sit down with us, and I still can't tell you anything about it other than what to do during the actual 20 minutes.

minutes. minutes. You dropped a clue there. Yeah. So, 20 minutes, that's probably TM or Yeah, that's what that sounds right. Yeah, that's what it was. Is that a good one? How do we feel about that? that? that? I feel good about it. It's um it's not what I do, but it is there's plenty of evidence to show that it's good for you. Is yours longer or shorter? Mine is super flexible. I mean, I often recommend Matt and I, my brother and his wife Jess, we all do the same flavor, which is kind of derived from Buddhist meditation or actually in our case, like full-on Buddhist meditation.

You five minutes is great. I try to do like broken up over the day, an hour. Gotcha. I'm a full-time meditation evangelist. I'm not comfortable with the level of hypocrisy that would come with not doing, you know, a significant amount. amount. amount. Right. You you said the thing that I was going to react to about your kids watching your stuff someday. I've worried about that with as a memoirist. Um I have some scenes I'm writing a book right now and um there are some scenes where I like describe my son's uh flatulence.

flatulence. flatulence. Yeah. And I may I may decide ultimately to cut that because he when he's 30 would might be justifiably pretty pissed about it. I think at least you have my fear is always like that other kids will see it that his peers will see it. Like at least like there's less of a chance that like a 13-year-old friend of his is going to read your memoir. That's true. Whereas like I'm always worried like a parent's gonna put on like my Netflix special and say to their kids, "Hey, this is Ash's dad or this is Axel's dad." And then because again, I don't we don't show it to my kids yet.

And yet, you know, you obviously can't control other parents. And I could see them thinking it might be a novel idea to show him something. And so it's always like never tell a joke that like another kid could use against your child. child. child. Even the nine-year-old hasn't seen your specials. specials. specials. No, he hasn't yet. Total lack of curiosity. Dan, curiosity. Dan, curiosity. Dan, I am deeply familiar with that. Yeah, he's always like, "Can we watch the new Bill Burr?" Like, "Son of a gun." All right.

Well, listen, speaking of kids, I I mentioned this earlier. You did write this book, I'm not scared, you're scared. you're scared. you're scared. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about your experience with the inner critic, especially in those early days on SNL, but how big a part of your life is anxiety, if at all? I don't think I have a ton of anxiety. I I think I'm anxious about the future and the things I can control um that I am over my career, but it took me a long time to get there.

I've tried to diversify the things I do in my career. like I've tried, you know, at the same time that I'm hosting a late night show, you know, I'm aware that those are not lifetime appointments and so I tried very hard to develop things like standup as a as a skill and um obviously having you know podcast is something to do and so I I like that as I'm getting older and you know again I'm I'm 51 and I'm proud of myself for like coming up with a way to like control that which I can control but a lot of my anxiety just comes from like being a parent like you know having kids that you put into the world and and what the world's going to be.

And so, you know, I think and again, the kids were younger when I wrote the book and I only had two of them at the time, but uh I'm not scared, you're scared. It was a lot more about like the way kids are and how as a parent I think you love the idea that your kids would be fearless except you also want them to be like careful, you know, and so it's sort of just a book about like that balance between, you know, ultimately you want to raise kids who know what they should and shouldn't be afraid of and and hopefully it would never You don't want fear to be a hurdle they have to get over when it's things you know they can do, but you also uh you You don't want them to be u lack any risk aversion.

So it's not like you're particularly angsty or anxious. It's it's that you know having three children moving through the world as a friend of mine. That's where my anxiety is from. Yeah. Yeah. What's going to you know what's going to happen to them at any given moment. And like don't get me wrong, like I'm I still have uh you know when I do, you know, when I do standup, uh you know, when I interview a big guest, like I'm I'm I'm still, you know, driven by butterflies and and that sort of anxiety, but I've had enough reps at this point to know that, you know, more often than not, it works out pretty well.

And so I I can actually put one foot in front of the other and go and do those shows. What makes you more nervous? Uh, a huge guest or, uh, taping a special? Probably taping a special just because it's it feels more permanent, you know, and ultimately when you tape a standup special, um, for me it's usually about 3 to four years worth of material that you've been working on and you sort of have one chance to make the version that everybody will see for Time in Memoriam.

And it's crazy because with jokes, you know, especially ultimately when you have an hour worth of jokes, like some of those jokes you're telling for the fifth time, some of them you're telling for the 60th time and like they all have their own life. You want to catch as many of them at their peak as possible, but like that's a very hard thing to do. So, it's also the anxiety of like when are you going to shoot your special and do you shoot it too early or do you shoot it too late where you know all of a sudden like you are falling out of love with a joke, right?

And once you do, you feel like the audience is as well. Uh, so that is the and even like the craziest things which I think matter the least which is like what to wear and what city to shoot it in because when you think of every great special like that you love I it other than like Eddie Murphy you can't remember what they were dressed like and uh and the good news is I'm not going to uh nobody wants me to dress like that anyway. I Eddie Murphy came to mind but also I I kind of remember some of Chappelle's onesies.

onesies. onesies. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And again, uh, not one where I saw it and was like, "Ah, that's what I should have done." When you were shooting those specials, is it all one take or can you do two or three nights in a row and cut it all together? together? together? So, you do two, it's fascinating. This is uh really interesting. You do two in the same night. So, you t you tape it twice, like a seven and a 9:30. And both times I did it, I uh felt like I got it in the first show.

And then my director, Neil Brandon, who directed both of them, said to me, "You have it, so like just go and have fun with the second show, like be loose, have fun." Uh, which I did both times. And in both cases, we almost used entirely the first one. So, the one that internally for me was the one that felt tight and uh a little bit less joyful was the far better product. product. product. Uh because it was it just had the crispness to it. Like it was not because it was not observably tight.

It was just my own uh but and it's a little bit like uh I don't know you know I feel like you know it is a reminder that it's a technical skill and as much as we watch comedy thinking it's loose like there there is actually like craft to making it look loose and and when you actually make a uh internal choice to be loose it just it's a little worse to watch and it's kind of the case for nerves properly managed nerves really can up your game.

your game. your game. I we always used to say at SNL like nothing was worse than a host who would say they weren't nervous because we were always like oh you should be you know what I mean like uh like we do this every week we're nervous so like you be a little cuz you know butterflies I think are I whenever I'm about to like go out and do something and I don't have butterflies I I that's where I feel like something's off. I had a guest on the show who made this point.

You you may have heard this before, but it really landed for me because I still struggle with performance anxiety. Um, you know, I'm I'm my career, second half of my career was built on having a panic attack on national television. So, it's on brand for me to be nervous every time I I go on TV. The reframe was the nerves are a sign that you care. Yeah, I think that is true and I'm really happy to do something something something that I care about that much.

And backstage at late night even. And by the way, you know, look, late night's different in that it feels like every night's a home game. And certainly the longer you do the show, the more you have an expectation that the audience knows what they're there for and they know who you are. You don't have to introduce yourself. So, it's the it's the smoothest version of it. But also, you know, it's going to be on television and you kind of can't trick yourself into forgetting that. And backstage, right before I walk out, there's a a you know, sign on the wall with all the guests and the number of episodes it is.

And, you know, every night I'm like 721 and I'm still And you still feel like the butterflies. And I actually always think I'm like that's great. Like the worst thing would be standing here right now and being like I know how it's going to go. Who cares? And so it's very I feel very lucky to care and to do something that is you know while there's I think a there's a consistency to the product like they are a little bit like snowflakes. Like every episode's a little bit different it is fun to find out over the course of the show how this one's going to be different than the ones before it.

Well said. you um you really have emerged uh in your uh 15 16 years on the show as a a very skilled interviewer. Oh, thank God. Do you have any tricks of the trade that you because people people struggle human beings struggle uh listening to other human beings carefully? I was so lucky and it was the first time where I felt like oh this is actually what learning this skill I didn't realize at the time but being an improviser right like that's what I came up with.

I wasn't a stand-up. I was doing improv comedy in Chicago and you're part of a troop and you know for those who don't know right like the key skill to doing a scene with somebody where there's no script and you're coming up with it together on the spot is you have to be a good listener because you can't build it if you don't if you're thinking about the next funny thing you want to say and you're doing your own oneman show while another person is in a two person scene with you it'll be a disaster.

So that's where I learned to be a good listener and also you know on my show it is a performance of a conversation like that doesn't mean that the answers are untruthful but you are doing a conversation for an audience. It's not the same way you would talk if it was just two of you in a you know a secluded corner of a bar. So, what makes it a better interview is if you're listening and instead of just waiting for your next question, you uh react in real time to things the guest is saying, you know, and sometimes I've always had like a pretty good ability to like even as an improviser like, you know, the call back where you're, you know, you pull something from earlier in the scene and you know, I think it's a real it's rewarding for an audience that's been listening as well.

And I find with my guests like I think they really like those moments where they're like, "Oh, you still remember something I said 3 minutes ago, you know, like that." So that's one thing is just being a good listener. The other thing which I just uh so much credit to our uh research department uh who work with our segment producers but they work so hard to make sure and again like in this day and age you know if somebody doesn't press her they might get interviewed 50 times but we try very hard not to ask things that they you know they were asked by uh Colar Kimmel or Fallon and uh I think there's an appreciation for that as well.

You often know what you're going to ask, but you're staying awake and alert so that you can pivot based on the answer. answer. answer. Yeah. I think you also with repetition, you learn there's like a thousand different kinds of talk show guests and you can tell the ones who are like it's really they are almost reliant on you asking the seven things you've agreed to ahead of time. Like they know they know they know you're just prompts for them to do their thing. And then there's other people who, you know, you can ask them one question and you realize like they don't actually care about what they're going to get to and they're having fun answering that question.

And the more you interrupt, the better they are. And you know, some people only look at you, some people only look at the audience. And so that's the other thing is I think being a good interviewer is over the course of any given interview turn into the interviewer that guest needs as opposed to forcing them to be the kind of guest you respond best to. And so that and again that makes it fun. Like I I try not to uh you know we always say like when somebody is uh uh I'm trying to think of a kind word uh to use but like if someone's all over the place as a guest like we love it you know and uh and we want to have those people back because it it's almost more fun to juggle as a host you get to juggle more balls.

The reason I've always said like I like talking about politics on our show, but I don't really like talking to politicians because politicians are never never never they never want to have the fun of like let's see where this goes. Like they they really, you know, they show up with five answers. They're probably going to give them no matter how what questions you ask. And uh and the audience could tell and they're just like h you know this. Again, this. Again, this. Again, ironically, the exception to that rule is Donald Trump.

Yes, that's a that's a that's a very like you could not be more accurate with that answer. And uh and sadly I've never had a chance to take a run at it. Would you want to? I wouldn't want to because I don't I really don't think there's like a uh I sadly don't think there's like the the breakthrough interview with him that you know that's the one got him. You know what I mean? So uh uh and I feel very you know we and by the way not for a lack of trying during uh 2015 2016 like we um you know and I will uh I will own up to not having taken uh the early days of that campaign seriously.

So we sort of thought like oh my god we'll have him on it'll be such a lark and uh and fortunately for us it just didn't it didn't happen. uh because I I'm sure there'd be something now that I would not uh I would not reflect back on fondly because of the how seriously I take the role of a host. Like I don't I generally don't like having people on where my role is to make them feel uncomfortable. And so, right, right, right, I would have been uh polite.

I would have been the nice boy that my parents raised and I would look back at it and be like, huh? Um that's like that picture's out there. When the holidays wind down and we're starting a new year, one thing I crave is to be comfortable. Holidays are a busy time. We've got lots of parties to go to, lots of entertaining to do. And for me, the holidays this year were particularly busy because I was on a deadline for finishing the latest draft of my never-ending book project.

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Refresh your routines with comfort that makes every day feel like a new year. Speaking of not taking it seriously, um I I always remember that the Huffington Post covered Donald Trump's presidency in the early days in the entertainment section of the website. And speaking of criticism, and I'm sure you don't want to comment on it, but it was searing to watch Fallon take a lot of criticism for his handling of Trump and and uh you know, I can see how that situation would emerge given the role of a late night host.

You're not actually 60 Minutes. Oh, yeah. And I I think that that was uh yeah, in the moment I totally It's exactly what you would do on a late night talk show. I I really think that uh it was uh yeah, I mean it's very easy to say now, but like it was it was entertainment content. How do you handle criticism either criticism either criticism either uh of your work in public or of your work at home? I I I feel as though I love a critic who it's a little bit like being a good listener.

Look, if somebody is actually paying attention to the work and uh has a a salient point about where it failed to meet its mark, I think there's a real uh chance to take something from it. Now, again, we're obviously living in a time where there's a lot of bad faith criticism. And uh the only upside of bad faith criticism is how quickly you can just fully ignore it. Um, you know, if somebody writes something negative about me on social media, it's pretty easy to just look at the last three things they wrote and get a sense of of where they're coming from.

And I mean, again, I would say I'm again touchier about criticism at home. Like, I definitely uh I I would love to to find my way to a place to be a little bit more um receive constructive. I wish I could receive constructive criticism better. You want a hack? Yeah, I would love a hack. hack. hack. This goes back to your reference of the call back while interviewing. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, a hack that I learned a couple of years ago, which I use in interviewing and actually you noticed it but didn't have the name for it early on in this interview, but it's also a great way to deal with criticism.

It's called reflective listening. So if somebody says something to you, they can have several paragraphs can issue forth from their face hole and you then learn kind of journalistically to sum up the headlines non-judgmentally in your own words but quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I use that a ton while I'm interviewing because it gives people the interviewees even though they probably couldn't articulate it like an incredible dopamine hit of knowing they've been heard. Yeah. It worked with me. But with my wife Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and I don't get this right all the time.

if she were here, she would give you her 90% still a speech. So, like it's I'm not I'm not putting myself on a pedestal. But I have learned in recent years if she's going to come at me with a complaint, almost always accurate. Um if I can just sum if I give myself the um uh circuit breaker before I go into defensive mode of just summing up what she's said, she's said, she's said, it calms both of us down. Um, and when I'm on my game, it can avoid, you know, 48 hours of misery.

That's really good. I will say I think Alexi does that really well because I'll I think after I say something, she always has this ability to be like, "So, if I could summarize, it seems like you're a dumb person." And I'd love for you to maybe go walk around the block and try to think of how to be smarter. I'm not sure that's what we're what I was talking about, but Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, all right. A couple more questions and I'm going to let you go.

Back to workplace culture. And I'm I'm asking this kind of with some selfish motivation because motivation because motivation because most of my career I was um an anchor on various shows at ABC News, but I didn't really run an organization and now I do. And it's been hard to learn how to port to not port over the shitty habits I acquired as a network news anchor to this organization. From what I've read, you really do, and we talked about this earlier, have a really highly functioning organization.

But I we didn't get to like the how of that. What have you done to set the tone for inclusion and comfort even among junior staffers? staffers? staffers? Well, I will say my one thing is I've never thought I was good at a single thing I'm not good at. And by that I mean I can write and that's about it. And I can I can and again obviously I'm going to host the show and that part's uh on me. But I have no uh visual sense, you know, when when it was time for like set design.

I had no take on that. I have no take on lighting. I have no take on sound. I have no take on anything. And so I have just uh endowed everybody to do your job the best you can do it and I will not look over your shoulder. Um and in return what I would love is uh less meetings less meetings less meetings genuinely. I'm like I don't like I'm the happiest I am and the most value I can add to Late Night with Seth Myers is if I'm sitting in front of my computer writing jokes for the show.

uh or if I'm sitting at my computer and I'm reading the research packet about the guest. What I don't want to do is have a meeting about things that I really believe you guys could figure out on your own. And I think that's one of the things that we do really well. And you know, with my writers, they have all the permission in the world to write what they want to write. And you know, big swings are always encouraged. Nobody gets blamed for like big new ideas.

But if if you take 10 big swings in a row and like we don't pick any of them because we don't feel like it's a fit for my voice or the voice of the show, like you know, then it's up to you to like decide if you want to adjust or if you want to continue to be somebody who does good stuff on the show. But we don't ever have like big meetings about like the writing has to be more like this or you know the interviews have to be more like that.

like we just are slowly all figuring it out together. And another thing, and I don't know how this was for you when you're in the news world, we decided early on, and it's a shoemaker rule, which is we do not do a post-mortem after the show. And he said early on like the problem, and he said this just from knowing me, he's like, "Look, after every show, you will have been observant enough to notice seven things you wish went differently. Um, and so if we go back to the office, we'll sit down and those seven things will take us anywhere from an hour to 90 minutes to get through and then we'll all get home, you know, two hours later.

Or we can wait till tomorrow and see if there even still problems in your head or if you want to like move on. And the reality is like probably since our staff is good, they will have noticed those six and nine things. And um, you know, the longer you do the show, the less you have and it's more valuable to just shake it off, go home and see what you're actually mad about tomorrow morning. And the reality is you mostly just want to focus on the next, next, next, you know, trip to the plate.

And like ultimately it just you learn like that don't live with no don't don't live in the failures but rather like embrace the fact you you get to do it again tomorrow. tomorrow. tomorrow. This shoemaker gentleman seems deeply wise. wise. wise. I mean he's the one you really want to have on the podcast. Um if you could ever convince him to ever if you could ever convince him to do it again. He's deeply wise. Um, and uh, he's he's also like a a real classic New York character who's like from the Bronx and like found his way into Manhattan and really isn't impressed by any of us.

You know, it's not like one of those aspirational stories of like one day I'm going to live going to one day I'm going to live there. It's more like somebody's got to go tell these dummies how to get stuff done. Okay, final question for me. Um, I was struck by something you said to Amy Polar recently on her show about the importance for you of friendship and loyalty. And the quote was, "I like the way that I like who I am through the eyes of my friends." I think it's the thing, and maybe it's a bit of a copout because I feel like it's probably easier to be a friend than it is to be most things, but I'm it I think I'm really good at it.

And I think uh when you're good at being a friend, you end up with really good friends. And uh I I have those and those and those and it's a really special thing. I'm really I'm really glad about it. And like, you know, I have friends uh I'm still really close with people from high school and really close with people from college and uh SNL. every everywhere I've gone, I feel like I've uh I've collected more people that uh are dear uh friends of mine. You know, I uh you know, during co I got to be really close with your brother and and a whole new cohort of people.

It's a it's a really nice thing to go through life with. Yes, this this episode is um an example of you being a good friend and doing a favor to my brother and coming on the show. So, um thank you for doing it. I really appreciate it. I only cozied up to your brother in the first place in hopes that it would lead to me being on this show. You've got it all backwards, Dan. Dan. Dan. I've gotten nothing from that guy. Been a dead end until this moment.

That may or may not come up at uh our next family dinner. I really hope it does. I mean, if not, what what was the point of me even saying it? saying it? saying it? I know. Fair enough. Just before I let you go, can you because this is a podcast, can you just name your podcast so that people can go listen to them? Yeah. Uh I do one with my brother called Family Trips with the Myers Brothers and it is a delight. And then I do one while we're speaking about friends with the lonely island which is Andy Samberg and Yor Mconei and Aka Schaffer and it's called the Lonely Island at Seth Myers podcast and that's sort of a trip down SNL memory lane and it's very funny and I've said this a lot but so much is written about how adult male friendships are withering on the vine and I just can't say it stronger.

Start a podcast. It will force you to see your friends once a week and you'll be happy you did. Seth Myers, thank you. Thank you, Dan.