How Narcissists Hijack Your Brain - Dr Peter Salerno

How do you describe what you do? Someone How do you describe what you do? Someone hasn't met you before. They don't know hasn't met you before. They don't know hasn't met you before. They don't know much about you. You're at a cocktail much about you. You're at a cocktail much about you. You're at a cocktail party. How do you describe what you do? party. How do you describe what you do? party. How do you describe what you do? >> I mean, my work focuses on um I mean, >> I mean, my work focuses on um I mean, >> I mean, my work focuses on um I mean, I'm a psychotherapist. That's kind of I'm a psychotherapist. That's kind of I'm a psychotherapist. That's kind of like my trade. I'm licensed as a like my trade. I'm licensed as a like my trade. I'm licensed as a psychotherapist. I have a a doctorate in psychotherapist. I have a a doctorate in psychotherapist. I have a a doctorate in psychology. So, my background is in psychology. So, my background is in psychology. So, my background is in psychology and and mental health. I psychology and and mental health. I psychology and and mental health. I would say what I do specifically is um I would say what I do specifically is um I would say what I do specifically is um I do extensive research on the ideology or do extensive research on the ideology or do extensive research on the ideology or cause of personality disorders. like cause of personality disorders. like cause of personality disorders. like that's the that's the type of diagnosis that's the that's the type of diagnosis that's the that's the type of diagnosis that I specialize in assessing, that I specialize in assessing, that I specialize in assessing, understanding. But one of the reasons I understanding. But one of the reasons I understanding. But one of the reasons I do it is actually not necessarily to do it is actually not necessarily to do it is actually not necessarily to treat personality disorders. I do it so treat personality disorders. I do it so treat personality disorders. I do it so that I help people understand that I help people understand that I help people understand um um um in relationships where there's uh a in relationships where there's uh a in relationships where there's uh a personality disorder, there's often personality disorder, there's often personality disorder, there's often toxicity and conflict and strife and um toxicity and conflict and strife and um toxicity and conflict and strife and um abuse, right? And so what I do is I help abuse, right? And so what I do is I help abuse, right? And so what I do is I help people uh restore their what I would people uh restore their what I would people uh restore their what I would call their reality confidence following call their reality confidence following call their reality confidence following a toxic relationship. Because in these a toxic relationship. Because in these a toxic relationship. Because in these relationships what happens is the relationships what happens is the relationships what happens is the individual who is the victim of somebody individual who is the victim of somebody individual who is the victim of somebody who is intentionally manipulative, who is intentionally manipulative, who is intentionally manipulative, deceptive, um controlling. What happens deceptive, um controlling. What happens deceptive, um controlling. What happens is the the victim loses their sense of is the the victim loses their sense of is the the victim loses their sense of what's actually true and real and what's what's actually true and real and what's what's actually true and real and what's actually um being manipulated. Okay. And actually um being manipulated. Okay. And actually um being manipulated. Okay. And so I I help people following these types so I I help people following these types so I I help people following these types of high conflict or problematic abusive of high conflict or problematic abusive of high conflict or problematic abusive relationships kind of get their reality relationships kind of get their reality relationships kind of get their reality confidence back. And one of the ways I confidence back. And one of the ways I confidence back. And one of the ways I do that is by resolving what I call uh do that is by resolving what I call uh do that is by resolving what I call uh traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is what happens to the brain when you're what happens to the brain when you're what happens to the brain when you're forced to hold two contradictory forced to hold two contradictory forced to hold two contradictory realities at the same time because realities at the same time because realities at the same time because someone is trying to convince you that someone is trying to convince you that someone is trying to convince you that two things could be true at the same two things could be true at the same two things could be true at the same time when they can't be. Um, and so when time when they can't be. Um, and so when time when they can't be. Um, and so when I'm consulting with people uh, I'm consulting with people uh, I'm consulting with people uh, professionally, I'm helping them regain professionally, I'm helping them regain professionally, I'm helping them regain their understanding of what's actually their understanding of what's actually their understanding of what's actually real, what happened to them, and what real, what happened to them, and what real, what happened to them, and what was what they were convinced happened to was what they were convinced happened to was what they were convinced happened to them because it was convenient for them because it was convenient for them because it was convenient for somebody else if they believed that. somebody else if they believed that. somebody else if they believed that. >> So, it's almost like people that have >> So, it's almost like people that have >> So, it's almost like people that have spent a good bit of time intimately spent a good bit of time intimately spent a good bit of time intimately close to these other people close to these other people close to these other people >> Mhm. their >> Mhm. their >> Mhm. their reality gets warped around them to the reality gets warped around them to the reality gets warped around them to the point where it's difficult for them to point where it's difficult for them to point where it's difficult for them to reenter normal reality without the old reenter normal reality without the old reenter normal reality without the old uh version creeping back in. uh version creeping back in. uh version creeping back in. >> Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the >> Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the >> Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the reasons for that is because the reasons for that is because the reasons for that is because the individual who is the manipulative individual who is the manipulative individual who is the manipulative person has done such an exceptional job person has done such an exceptional job person has done such an exceptional job of making a lot of the the deception and of making a lot of the the deception and of making a lot of the the deception and the evidence invisible. the evidence invisible. the evidence invisible. So, it's not like there's somebody So, it's not like there's somebody So, it's not like there's somebody overtly trying to manipulate you and overtly trying to manipulate you and overtly trying to manipulate you and you're aware of it, right? Like, it's you're aware of it, right? Like, it's you're aware of it, right? Like, it's not like there's somebody saying, "Hey, not like there's somebody saying, "Hey, not like there's somebody saying, "Hey, I want you to buy this product from me. I want you to buy this product from me. I want you to buy this product from me. Here's why I think it'll improve your Here's why I think it'll improve your Here's why I think it'll improve your life." And then they pressure you. It's life." And then they pressure you. It's life." And then they pressure you. It's actually more like, "No, I'm not actually more like, "No, I'm not actually more like, "No, I'm not actually up to anything. I mean, you're actually up to anything. I mean, you're actually up to anything. I mean, you're free to come and go as you please in free to come and go as you please in free to come and go as you please in this arrangement, all while underneath this arrangement, all while underneath this arrangement, all while underneath the surface covertly trying to gain an the surface covertly trying to gain an the surface covertly trying to gain an advantage over this person for selfish advantage over this person for selfish advantage over this person for selfish reasons, exploitative reasons. And so reasons, exploitative reasons. And so reasons, exploitative reasons. And so even if the relationship has ended, they even if the relationship has ended, they even if the relationship has ended, they still might perceive the relationship still might perceive the relationship still might perceive the relationship even years or decades later in a way even years or decades later in a way even years or decades later in a way that's not accurate because they were um that's not accurate because they were um that's not accurate because they were um their reality was distorted. their reality was distorted. their reality was distorted. >> What are the personality type? What what >> What are the personality type? What what >> What are the personality type? What what what are the sorts of people, the kinds what are the sorts of people, the kinds what are the sorts of people, the kinds of psychological profiles? What are we of psychological profiles? What are we of psychological profiles? What are we talking about here? And how does that talking about here? And how does that talking about here? And how does that how does that show up in behavior? how does that show up in behavior? how does that show up in behavior? >> Yeah. So I mean I I would say the >> Yeah. So I mean I I would say the >> Yeah. So I mean I I would say the personality disorders and I'm just the personality disorders and I'm just the personality disorders and I'm just the messenger here. Okay. Uh but the messenger here. Okay. Uh but the messenger here. Okay. Uh but the personality disorders that we most often personality disorders that we most often personality disorders that we most often associate with interpersonal conflict, associate with interpersonal conflict, associate with interpersonal conflict, abuse, harm are what we call the cluster abuse, harm are what we call the cluster abuse, harm are what we call the cluster B personality disorders. And so the B personality disorders. And so the B personality disorders. And so the reason why we we cluster them together reason why we we cluster them together reason why we we cluster them together is because they have a lot of is because they have a lot of is because they have a lot of overlapping features. So, it's not um overlapping features. So, it's not um overlapping features. So, it's not um it's not really accurate to say that it it's not really accurate to say that it it's not really accurate to say that it it's convenient, but it's not fully it's convenient, but it's not fully it's convenient, but it's not fully accurate to say that somebody just fits accurate to say that somebody just fits accurate to say that somebody just fits into one, into one, into one, you know, concrete category of disorder you know, concrete category of disorder you know, concrete category of disorder and we can just label them as such and and we can just label them as such and and we can just label them as such and then there's nothing else going on. then there's nothing else going on. then there's nothing else going on. Usually, what's happening is there's Usually, what's happening is there's Usually, what's happening is there's quite a few traits or features of quite a few traits or features of quite a few traits or features of multiple personality disorders that are multiple personality disorders that are multiple personality disorders that are overlapping in one individual and so it overlapping in one individual and so it overlapping in one individual and so it makes it even harder to really pinpoint makes it even harder to really pinpoint makes it even harder to really pinpoint what really is this person all about. Um what really is this person all about. Um what really is this person all about. Um but it but I would say that the but it but I would say that the but it but I would say that the pathological traits, the personality pathological traits, the personality pathological traits, the personality traits that we find common in the traits that we find common in the traits that we find common in the cluster B uh classification of disorders cluster B uh classification of disorders cluster B uh classification of disorders are the ones that you're going to find are the ones that you're going to find are the ones that you're going to find causing the most interpersonal trouble causing the most interpersonal trouble causing the most interpersonal trouble and conflict in relationships. and conflict in relationships. and conflict in relationships. >> What would they what are they named? >> What would they what are they named? >> What would they what are they named? >> So we have one of the main ones that's >> So we have one of the main ones that's >> So we have one of the main ones that's sort of like an umbrella term is what we sort of like an umbrella term is what we sort of like an umbrella term is what we refer to as antagonism. Antagonism is a refer to as antagonism. Antagonism is a refer to as antagonism. Antagonism is a personality trait uh where people are in personality trait uh where people are in personality trait uh where people are in in oftentimes intentionally putting in oftentimes intentionally putting in oftentimes intentionally putting themselves at odds with another person themselves at odds with another person themselves at odds with another person or they're putting two other people at or they're putting two other people at or they're putting two other people at odds with one another literally to odds with one another literally to odds with one another literally to create drama to create conflict to create drama to create conflict to create drama to create conflict to escalate problems rather than solve escalate problems rather than solve escalate problems rather than solve them. So an example of antagonism is them. So an example of antagonism is them. So an example of antagonism is something uh that we refer to as um something uh that we refer to as um something uh that we refer to as um like triangulation. So, one person is like triangulation. So, one person is like triangulation. So, one person is intentionally going to tell another intentionally going to tell another intentionally going to tell another person something about someone else to person something about someone else to person something about someone else to create a rift and then they're going to create a rift and then they're going to create a rift and then they're going to deny that they did that. And so, now the deny that they did that. And so, now the deny that they did that. And so, now the two people that didn't even speak could two people that didn't even speak could two people that didn't even speak could be having thoughts and perceptions about be having thoughts and perceptions about be having thoughts and perceptions about each other based on this other person each other based on this other person each other based on this other person that could be completely a fabrication. that could be completely a fabrication. that could be completely a fabrication. It could just be a lie. And now those It could just be a lie. And now those It could just be a lie. And now those two people are at odds with one another two people are at odds with one another two people are at odds with one another and they haven't even communicated and they haven't even communicated and they haven't even communicated necessarily. It's just this other person necessarily. It's just this other person necessarily. It's just this other person is is deciding, I'm going to create a is is deciding, I'm going to create a is is deciding, I'm going to create a rift in here because it might benefit rift in here because it might benefit rift in here because it might benefit them for those two people to not get them for those two people to not get them for those two people to not get along. along. along. And so, they're going to strategically And so, they're going to strategically And so, they're going to strategically create a problem in that dynamic and create a problem in that dynamic and create a problem in that dynamic and then deny it ever have it. then deny it ever have it. then deny it ever have it. >> I didn't even know antagonism was a a >> I didn't even know antagonism was a a >> I didn't even know antagonism was a a personality trait or a potential personality trait or a potential personality trait or a potential personality type. I I personality type. I I personality type. I I >> I don't know. I mean, I I've thought >> I don't know. I mean, I I've thought >> I don't know. I mean, I I've thought about somebody that is antagonistic. about somebody that is antagonistic. about somebody that is antagonistic. You can you know that but I didn't You can you know that but I didn't You can you know that but I didn't realize that it would be something more realize that it would be something more realize that it would be something more >> definable something something that had >> definable something something that had >> definable something something that had its own little bucket. its own little bucket. its own little bucket. >> Yeah. And that's actually a big bucket >> Yeah. And that's actually a big bucket >> Yeah. And that's actually a big bucket because what under what's underneath because what under what's underneath because what under what's underneath antagonism is um things like grandiosity antagonism is um things like grandiosity antagonism is um things like grandiosity which we see in narcissism. I'm sure which we see in narcissism. I'm sure which we see in narcissism. I'm sure you're familiar with that term. It's a you're familiar with that term. It's a you're familiar with that term. It's a big popular term. big popular term. big popular term. Mo most people who get accused of being Mo most people who get accused of being Mo most people who get accused of being narcissistic, what's actually what narcissistic, what's actually what narcissistic, what's actually what they're actually being accused of is they're actually being accused of is they're actually being accused of is antagonism. They're being accused of the antagonism. They're being accused of the antagonism. They're being accused of the the problematic aspect of narcissism in the problematic aspect of narcissism in the problematic aspect of narcissism in a relationship is somebody's a relationship is somebody's a relationship is somebody's grandiosity. So, their entitlement, grandiosity. So, their entitlement, grandiosity. So, their entitlement, their arrogance, their inability to see their arrogance, their inability to see their arrogance, their inability to see other people as an equal. Well, the only other people as an equal. Well, the only other people as an equal. Well, the only way you can be in a relationship way you can be in a relationship way you can be in a relationship um as a narcissist and to maintain that um as a narcissist and to maintain that um as a narcissist and to maintain that position is if you antagonize people. position is if you antagonize people. position is if you antagonize people. because you need to put people at odds because you need to put people at odds because you need to put people at odds with you. They need to be beneath you. with you. They need to be beneath you. with you. They need to be beneath you. They need to be aware that there's a They need to be aware that there's a They need to be aware that there's a hierarchy in the relationship that you hierarchy in the relationship that you hierarchy in the relationship that you are whatever the case may be, smarter, are whatever the case may be, smarter, are whatever the case may be, smarter, better, um you know, they need to be better, um you know, they need to be better, um you know, they need to be above. There's no such thing as equality above. There's no such thing as equality above. There's no such thing as equality in a relationship where one person is in a relationship where one person is in a relationship where one person is truly narcissistic. Um so yeah, so truly narcissistic. Um so yeah, so truly narcissistic. Um so yeah, so antagonism is actually the big bowl that antagonism is actually the big bowl that antagonism is actually the big bowl that a lot of the other traits that we often a lot of the other traits that we often a lot of the other traits that we often hear about um they actually are falling hear about um they actually are falling hear about um they actually are falling under the category of antagonism. What under the category of antagonism. What under the category of antagonism. What else is in the cluster? else is in the cluster? else is in the cluster? >> We have um hostility. So people that >> We have um hostility. So people that >> We have um hostility. So people that have kind of tend to hold like a have kind of tend to hold like a have kind of tend to hold like a contempt or a spite towards others to contempt or a spite towards others to contempt or a spite towards others to where they're not actually collaborating where they're not actually collaborating where they're not actually collaborating to make relationships better. They they to make relationships better. They they to make relationships better. They they they're resentful of the person. They're they're resentful of the person. They're they're resentful of the person. They're they might envy the person. They might they might envy the person. They might they might envy the person. They might be jealous of the person. So they're be jealous of the person. So they're be jealous of the person. So they're hostile towards them. And it's again, hostile towards them. And it's again, hostile towards them. And it's again, this isn't always this isn't always this isn't always being admitted to. They could be smiling being admitted to. They could be smiling being admitted to. They could be smiling and winning favor and ingratiating and and winning favor and ingratiating and and winning favor and ingratiating and being kind to the person all while being kind to the person all while being kind to the person all while sabotaging something covertly um through sabotaging something covertly um through sabotaging something covertly um through their because as a result of their their because as a result of their their because as a result of their hostility. So they might be deceptive. hostility. So they might be deceptive. hostility. So they might be deceptive. That's another feature of antagonism is That's another feature of antagonism is That's another feature of antagonism is deceit u obviously manipulation deceit u obviously manipulation deceit u obviously manipulation um um um failure to fulfill obligations. all of failure to fulfill obligations. all of failure to fulfill obligations. all of these things that we see and and if these things that we see and and if these things that we see and and if they're consistent chronic behaviors, they're consistent chronic behaviors, they're consistent chronic behaviors, um we're really dealing with an an um we're really dealing with an an um we're really dealing with an an antagonistic person. antagonistic person. antagonistic person. >> Well, I suppose all of us have done some >> Well, I suppose all of us have done some >> Well, I suppose all of us have done some of this some of the time. of this some of the time. of this some of the time. >> So, when we talk about personality >> So, when we talk about personality >> So, when we talk about personality disorders, what we're really talking disorders, what we're really talking disorders, what we're really talking about is about is about is is this trait Well, so we'll just use is this trait Well, so we'll just use is this trait Well, so we'll just use antagonism because we're talking about antagonism because we're talking about antagonism because we're talking about antagonism. Is somebody antagonistic in antagonism. Is somebody antagonistic in antagonism. Is somebody antagonistic in like one or two specific contexts? So, like one or two specific contexts? So, like one or two specific contexts? So, are they are do they do they tend to are they are do they do they tend to are they are do they do they tend to become antagonistic when they're only become antagonistic when they're only become antagonistic when they're only talking to their mother and they're an talking to their mother and they're an talking to their mother and they're an adult, right? But no matter how much adult, right? But no matter how much adult, right? But no matter how much time goes by, if they go home to the time goes by, if they go home to the time goes by, if they go home to the house that they grew up in, they start house that they grew up in, they start house that they grew up in, they start being antagonistic. Are we talking about being antagonistic. Are we talking about being antagonistic. Are we talking about that? Because that's kind of a normal that? Because that's kind of a normal that? Because that's kind of a normal thing that we could see in humans. Or is thing that we could see in humans. Or is thing that we could see in humans. Or is this person all day every day plotting this person all day every day plotting this person all day every day plotting to put people at odds with one another to put people at odds with one another to put people at odds with one another because it benefits them in some way for because it benefits them in some way for because it benefits them in some way for people to not get along? they seem to be people to not get along? they seem to be people to not get along? they seem to be the common denominator of helping the common denominator of helping the common denominator of helping everybody pick up the pieces back everybody pick up the pieces back everybody pick up the pieces back together. Um, so there could be some together. Um, so there could be some together. Um, so there could be some motivating factor why the why the person motivating factor why the why the person motivating factor why the why the person operates in an antagonistic fashion all operates in an antagonistic fashion all operates in an antagonistic fashion all day every day, we would say that that's day every day, we would say that that's day every day, we would say that that's more related to um abnormal or more related to um abnormal or more related to um abnormal or maladaptive personality. But if you're maladaptive personality. But if you're maladaptive personality. But if you're antag antagonistic once in a while with antag antagonistic once in a while with antag antagonistic once in a while with a particular person because you have a a particular person because you have a a particular person because you have a history, that's just being human, right? history, that's just being human, right? history, that's just being human, right? What we're looking for is how much is What we're looking for is how much is What we're looking for is how much is this pattern interfering with the life this pattern interfering with the life this pattern interfering with the life of the individual and the lives of other of the individual and the lives of other of the individual and the lives of other people. Uh people. Uh people. Uh >> so there's action there. Yeah. >> so there's action there. Yeah. >> so there's action there. Yeah. >> What's the root of this? What are the >> What's the root of this? What are the >> What's the root of this? What are the root of much of the clust? root of much of the clust? root of much of the clust? >> This is an excellent question. So, one >> This is an excellent question. So, one >> This is an excellent question. So, one of the things that is going to put my of the things that is going to put my of the things that is going to put my answer or set my answer apart is u most answer or set my answer apart is u most answer or set my answer apart is u most of the people you've probably seen speak of the people you've probably seen speak of the people you've probably seen speak about this topic, personality disorders about this topic, personality disorders about this topic, personality disorders or narcissism, um they're going to give or narcissism, um they're going to give or narcissism, um they're going to give you a different answer than I would give you a different answer than I would give you a different answer than I would give you based on what causes it. Okay? Um you based on what causes it. Okay? Um you based on what causes it. Okay? Um most people have this idea or have most people have this idea or have most people have this idea or have adopted the idea that what causes it is adopted the idea that what causes it is adopted the idea that what causes it is actually um childhood adversity. actually um childhood adversity. actually um childhood adversity. uh or some sort of abuse or situation uh or some sort of abuse or situation uh or some sort of abuse or situation where the person learns to be this way where the person learns to be this way where the person learns to be this way and and and >> hurt people hurt people. >> hurt people hurt people. >> hurt people hurt people. >> Precisely. Yeah. I mean that's the >> Precisely. Yeah. I mean that's the >> Precisely. Yeah. I mean that's the that's the most common answer you'll that's the most common answer you'll that's the most common answer you'll get. Um I would I would fundamentally get. Um I would I would fundamentally get. Um I would I would fundamentally disagree with that because there's a lot disagree with that because there's a lot disagree with that because there's a lot of new research that has come out um of new research that has come out um of new research that has come out um within the last 20 years even uh that within the last 20 years even uh that within the last 20 years even uh that suggests that a lot of the traits that suggests that a lot of the traits that suggests that a lot of the traits that we use to describe the central features we use to describe the central features we use to describe the central features of something like a narcissism are of something like a narcissism are of something like a narcissism are actually just as much if not more actually just as much if not more actually just as much if not more related to the way somebody is just related to the way somebody is just related to the way somebody is just intrinsically built rather than the intrinsically built rather than the intrinsically built rather than the things that happen to them. So, we're things that happen to them. So, we're things that happen to them. So, we're going to go into like the the there's no going to go into like the the there's no going to go into like the the there's no such thing as a nature nurture debate such thing as a nature nurture debate such thing as a nature nurture debate because it's always nature and nurture. because it's always nature and nurture. because it's always nature and nurture. So, there's no such thing as talking So, there's no such thing as talking So, there's no such thing as talking about one without the other. But what about one without the other. But what about one without the other. But what I've what I've noticed in clinical I've what I've noticed in clinical I've what I've noticed in clinical research and clinical practice and in research and clinical practice and in research and clinical practice and in just in my field in general is there is just in my field in general is there is just in my field in general is there is a lack of awareness among professionals a lack of awareness among professionals a lack of awareness among professionals of how much DNA and biology contribute of how much DNA and biology contribute of how much DNA and biology contribute to narcissistic traits and features to narcissistic traits and features to narcissistic traits and features across the lifespan in an individual across the lifespan in an individual across the lifespan in an individual regardless of what has happened to them regardless of what has happened to them regardless of what has happened to them in early life and childhood. So, what I in early life and childhood. So, what I in early life and childhood. So, what I mean by that is there is evidence to to mean by that is there is evidence to to mean by that is there is evidence to to demonstrate that people can be highly demonstrate that people can be highly demonstrate that people can be highly narcissistic or have a personality narcissistic or have a personality narcissistic or have a personality disorder that's more severe than we'll disorder that's more severe than we'll disorder that's more severe than we'll say mild or moderate and they could say mild or moderate and they could say mild or moderate and they could actually develop that disorder without actually develop that disorder without actually develop that disorder without any adversity or trauma or um incidence any adversity or trauma or um incidence any adversity or trauma or um incidence of being hurt uh in their personal life. of being hurt uh in their personal life. of being hurt uh in their personal life. So, we can no longer attribute this type So, we can no longer attribute this type So, we can no longer attribute this type of behavior solely to what happened to of behavior solely to what happened to of behavior solely to what happened to somebody in their early formative years. somebody in their early formative years. somebody in their early formative years. >> I had uh Katherine Paige Harden on the >> I had uh Katherine Paige Harden on the >> I had uh Katherine Paige Harden on the show yesterday. You familiar with her? show yesterday. You familiar with her? show yesterday. You familiar with her? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Wrote the genetic lottery and her >> Yeah. Wrote the genetic lottery and her >> Yeah. Wrote the genetic lottery and her new book is original sin. And it's all new book is original sin. And it's all new book is original sin. And it's all about how uh people's behavior is about how uh people's behavior is about how uh people's behavior is influenced by their genes. uh especially influenced by their genes. uh especially influenced by their genes. uh especially maladaptive antisocial behavior, maladaptive antisocial behavior, maladaptive antisocial behavior, robbing, stealing, lying, abuse, robbing, stealing, lying, abuse, robbing, stealing, lying, abuse, >> and uh so yeah, you're you're in you're >> and uh so yeah, you're you're in you're >> and uh so yeah, you're you're in you're in good company this week. Apparently, in good company this week. Apparently, in good company this week. Apparently, it's just all about bad personality it's just all about bad personality it's just all about bad personality traits and how much our genes. So, an traits and how much our genes. So, an traits and how much our genes. So, an interesting question there is interesting question there is interesting question there is >> if you're saying uh trauma doesn't >> if you're saying uh trauma doesn't >> if you're saying uh trauma doesn't necessarily necessarily necessarily cause people to become abusers, that you cause people to become abusers, that you cause people to become abusers, that you can have a child who goes through a can have a child who goes through a can have a child who goes through a horrendous childhood, doesn't grow up to horrendous childhood, doesn't grow up to horrendous childhood, doesn't grow up to become a a narcissist or an antagonist become a a narcissist or an antagonist become a a narcissist or an antagonist or whatever. Um and you can also have a or whatever. Um and you can also have a or whatever. Um and you can also have a childhood which doesn't have abuse and childhood which doesn't have abuse and childhood which doesn't have abuse and the child does grow up to become an the child does grow up to become an the child does grow up to become an adult or even in childhood is presumably adult or even in childhood is presumably adult or even in childhood is presumably you get narcissistic children as well. you get narcissistic children as well. you get narcissistic children as well. Um how often do you see somebody that Um how often do you see somebody that Um how often do you see somebody that becomes let's just say a narcissist or becomes let's just say a narcissist or becomes let's just say a narcissist or antagonist that doesn't have it in their antagonist that doesn't have it in their antagonist that doesn't have it in their family history where you've been able to family history where you've been able to family history where you've been able to separate out some of the heritability separate out some of the heritability separate out some of the heritability component of this. How many people can component of this. How many people can component of this. How many people can environment themselves into a cluster B environment themselves into a cluster B environment themselves into a cluster B disorder? disorder? disorder? >> Yeah, that's such a great question. Um, >> Yeah, that's such a great question. Um, >> Yeah, that's such a great question. Um, I would say historically in the mental I would say historically in the mental I would say historically in the mental health field, the the answer to that health field, the the answer to that health field, the the answer to that question would be as many people as question would be as many people as question would be as many people as possible because they're operating from possible because they're operating from possible because they're operating from this theoretical lens, right? That these this theoretical lens, right? That these this theoretical lens, right? That these are created these are designed are created these are designed are created these are designed disorders. They're not they're not built disorders. They're not they're not built disorders. They're not they're not built into anybody. They're they're strictly into anybody. They're they're strictly into anybody. They're they're strictly environmental. So that presents a environmental. So that presents a environmental. So that presents a problem if they're strictly problem if they're strictly problem if they're strictly environmental to my uh my perspective environmental to my uh my perspective environmental to my uh my perspective because um what it's saying is that because um what it's saying is that because um what it's saying is that under the right circumstances you can under the right circumstances you can under the right circumstances you can make a narcissist, right? Um make a narcissist, right? Um make a narcissist, right? Um so to answer your question, I maybe I'm so to answer your question, I maybe I'm so to answer your question, I maybe I'm correct me if I'm not answering your correct me if I'm not answering your correct me if I'm not answering your question. I would say it I'm not going question. I would say it I'm not going question. I would say it I'm not going to say something's not possible. So, do to say something's not possible. So, do to say something's not possible. So, do I think it's possible that somebody I think it's possible that somebody I think it's possible that somebody based on experience alone could develop based on experience alone could develop based on experience alone could develop what we would uh typically refer to as what we would uh typically refer to as what we would uh typically refer to as like narcissistic personality disorder? like narcissistic personality disorder? like narcissistic personality disorder? Could they meet that criteria at some Could they meet that criteria at some Could they meet that criteria at some point in their life? Yeah, sure. Um, I point in their life? Yeah, sure. Um, I point in their life? Yeah, sure. Um, I would caution uh to say though that what would caution uh to say though that what would caution uh to say though that what we're really seeing now though is they we're really seeing now though is they we're really seeing now though is they need the they need enough of the startup need the they need enough of the startup need the they need enough of the startup material of narcissism in order for it material of narcissism in order for it material of narcissism in order for it to really manifest into like a pervasive to really manifest into like a pervasive to really manifest into like a pervasive disorder. Meaning there has to be some disorder. Meaning there has to be some disorder. Meaning there has to be some biological and genetic underpinnings biological and genetic underpinnings biological and genetic underpinnings >> that set up the trade profile for that. >> that set up the trade profile for that. >> that set up the trade profile for that. >> They need they need the raw materials. >> They need they need the raw materials. >> They need they need the raw materials. >> Yeah, I I'd say so. I don't think you >> Yeah, I I'd say so. I don't think you >> Yeah, I I'd say so. I don't think you could just create it from the ground up could just create it from the ground up could just create it from the ground up in anybody. in anybody. in anybody. >> So, do you often see it in mom or dad or >> So, do you often see it in mom or dad or >> So, do you often see it in mom or dad or grandparents? Have you ever looked at grandparents? Have you ever looked at grandparents? Have you ever looked at this? Has anyone done this study? this? Has anyone done this study? this? Has anyone done this study? >> Yeah. So they're actually what what the >> Yeah. So they're actually what what the >> Yeah. So they're actually what what the what gives us the most information on what gives us the most information on what gives us the most information on how genetic something is versus how how genetic something is versus how how genetic something is versus how environmental is twin studies. Twins environmental is twin studies. Twins environmental is twin studies. Twins it's the it's a natural experiment. You it's the it's a natural experiment. You it's the it's a natural experiment. You take two identical twins that have been take two identical twins that have been take two identical twins that have been raised apart. So they don't even know raised apart. So they don't even know raised apart. So they don't even know the other exists and they know nothing the other exists and they know nothing the other exists and they know nothing about their environment. You you study about their environment. You you study about their environment. You you study them later in life or or at intervals of them later in life or or at intervals of them later in life or or at intervals of life. How similar are they if they come life. How similar are they if they come life. How similar are they if they come from completely different upbringings, from completely different upbringings, from completely different upbringings, completely different socioeconomic completely different socioeconomic completely different socioeconomic status, completely different countries? status, completely different countries? status, completely different countries? How similar are they in personality? If How similar are they in personality? If How similar are they in personality? If they didn't know the other exists, but they didn't know the other exists, but they didn't know the other exists, but they share 100% of their DNA, right? So, they share 100% of their DNA, right? So, they share 100% of their DNA, right? So, those are the those are the kind of cool those are the those are the kind of cool those are the those are the kind of cool natural experiments we can do on natural experiments we can do on natural experiments we can do on identical twins to see how much of identical twins to see how much of identical twins to see how much of environmental influence is there versus environmental influence is there versus environmental influence is there versus how concordant are their traits, even if how concordant are their traits, even if how concordant are their traits, even if they live apart, but just share similar they live apart, but just share similar they live apart, but just share similar DNA. What we found in like some pretty DNA. What we found in like some pretty DNA. What we found in like some pretty landmark metaanalyses and landmark landmark metaanalyses and landmark landmark metaanalyses and landmark studies is across the board when it studies is across the board when it studies is across the board when it comes to psychological traits um 50 plus comes to psychological traits um 50 plus comes to psychological traits um 50 plus years of twin research covering millions years of twin research covering millions years of twin research covering millions and millions of different of twins um and millions of different of twins um and millions of different of twins um and covering I don't know how many and covering I don't know how many and covering I don't know how many traits there are but maybe 20,000 traits there are but maybe 20,000 traits there are but maybe 20,000 psychological traits in that are psychological traits in that are psychological traits in that are possible. We're finding that all possible. We're finding that all possible. We're finding that all psychological traits including psychological traits including psychological traits including personality traits um show measurable personality traits um show measurable personality traits um show measurable average heritability of like about 50%. average heritability of like about 50%. average heritability of like about 50%. So that's just with startup material So that's just with startup material So that's just with startup material alone um alone um alone um all psychological traits show about 50% all psychological traits show about 50% all psychological traits show about 50% um average heritability. And what we've um average heritability. And what we've um average heritability. And what we've seen with personality disorders is that seen with personality disorders is that seen with personality disorders is that those percentages actually increase when those percentages actually increase when those percentages actually increase when we're talking about pathological we're talking about pathological we're talking about pathological personality traits. So it exceeds 50%. personality traits. So it exceeds 50%. personality traits. So it exceeds 50%. That's that's pretty significant. That's that's pretty significant. That's that's pretty significant. >> Yeah. Well, it's on average pretty much >> Yeah. Well, it's on average pretty much >> Yeah. Well, it's on average pretty much everything is 50%. But when you're everything is 50%. But when you're everything is 50%. But when you're talking about such an extreme outlier, talking about such an extreme outlier, talking about such an extreme outlier, what sounds like very antisocial kind of what sounds like very antisocial kind of what sounds like very antisocial kind of maladaptive at least at the group level maladaptive at least at the group level maladaptive at least at the group level although it may be slightly adaptive at although it may be slightly adaptive at although it may be slightly adaptive at the individual level. I would have you the individual level. I would have you the individual level. I would have you would have hoped that uh our genes might would have hoped that uh our genes might would have hoped that uh our genes might have been able to regress back to the have been able to regress back to the have been able to regress back to the mean a little bit more uh effectively to mean a little bit more uh effectively to mean a little bit more uh effectively to try and push this thing out. So have you try and push this thing out. So have you try and push this thing out. So have you got got got have you thought about this through an have you thought about this through an have you thought about this through an evolutionary lens? Have you thought evolutionary lens? Have you thought evolutionary lens? Have you thought about how cluster B personality traits about how cluster B personality traits about how cluster B personality traits might be adaptive? What sort of benefits might be adaptive? What sort of benefits might be adaptive? What sort of benefits they would afford our ancestors and what they would afford our ancestors and what they would afford our ancestors and what sort of benefits the people who have sort of benefits the people who have sort of benefits the people who have them receive now? Because if they have them receive now? Because if they have them receive now? Because if they have stayed in the gene pool for a couple stayed in the gene pool for a couple stayed in the gene pool for a couple hundred thousand years, we have to hundred thousand years, we have to hundred thousand years, we have to assume that they're there for a reason. assume that they're there for a reason. assume that they're there for a reason. So what what what sort of benefits do So what what what sort of benefits do So what what what sort of benefits do these people see? these people see? these people see? >> Yeah. So like why like essentially why >> Yeah. So like why like essentially why >> Yeah. So like why like essentially why did these mechanisms evolve and why are did these mechanisms evolve and why are did these mechanisms evolve and why are they still around? Like they still around? Like they still around? Like >> bingo. >> bingo. >> bingo. >> Okay. Um >> Okay. Um >> Okay. Um so the first question that we just so the first question that we just so the first question that we just talked about with heritability, we were talked about with heritability, we were talked about with heritability, we were asking essentially why do individuals asking essentially why do individuals asking essentially why do individuals differ? Why would one person have more differ? Why would one person have more differ? Why would one person have more narcissism than the other? Okay now narcissism than the other? Okay now narcissism than the other? Okay now you're asking an even well maybe not an you're asking an even well maybe not an you're asking an even well maybe not an even better question but just as even better question but just as even better question but just as important as a question um why the important as a question um why the important as a question um why the mechanisms in the first place like did mechanisms in the first place like did mechanisms in the first place like did they serve some some you know useful they serve some some you know useful they serve some some you know useful purpose or even non-useful purpose or even non-useful purpose or even non-useful um evolutionary psychologists I don't um evolutionary psychologists I don't um evolutionary psychologists I don't want to speak for all of them but some want to speak for all of them but some want to speak for all of them but some of them would say this is just due to of them would say this is just due to of them would say this is just due to random variation like these traits exist random variation like these traits exist random variation like these traits exist in the human DNA and they're going to in the human DNA and they're going to in the human DNA and they're going to reemerge in future generations even if reemerge in future generations even if reemerge in future generations even if we try to wipe them out just like we try to wipe them out just like we try to wipe them out just like cooperation would reemerge if we tried cooperation would reemerge if we tried cooperation would reemerge if we tried to wipe out all the cooperative people. to wipe out all the cooperative people. to wipe out all the cooperative people. Um so part of it is random variation. I Um so part of it is random variation. I Um so part of it is random variation. I think it's just you know the nature of think it's just you know the nature of think it's just you know the nature of human DNA. We have these traits that human DNA. We have these traits that human DNA. We have these traits that exist. I think that these traits do exist. I think that these traits do exist. I think that these traits do serve certain purposes and c certain serve certain purposes and c certain serve certain purposes and c certain contexts that are useful um for contexts that are useful um for contexts that are useful um for immediate reward or immediate immediate reward or immediate immediate reward or immediate gratification or even solving a very gratification or even solving a very gratification or even solving a very particular problem that requires um particular problem that requires um particular problem that requires um uh uh uh could potentially require even impulse could potentially require even impulse could potentially require even impulse right when you like a spontaneous right when you like a spontaneous right when you like a spontaneous impulsive quick decision here. Um so we impulsive quick decision here. Um so we impulsive quick decision here. Um so we want to look at the utility in these want to look at the utility in these want to look at the utility in these traits too. They're not all bad and I traits too. They're not all bad and I traits too. They're not all bad and I wouldn't even go so far as to say this wouldn't even go so far as to say this wouldn't even go so far as to say this is an issue about is an issue about is an issue about related to good or evil. I think these related to good or evil. I think these related to good or evil. I think these traits even in smaller doses could be traits even in smaller doses could be traits even in smaller doses could be extremely useful. Um, and so they exist extremely useful. Um, and so they exist extremely useful. Um, and so they exist for that purpose. When they get to the for that purpose. When they get to the for that purpose. When they get to the point where they're on the extreme end point where they're on the extreme end point where they're on the extreme end of the quantitative dimension, meaning of the quantitative dimension, meaning of the quantitative dimension, meaning somebody is existing in life and in somebody is existing in life and in somebody is existing in life and in relationships relationships relationships hostile to the point where it's hostile to the point where it's hostile to the point where it's problematic. um you know that's when we problematic. um you know that's when we problematic. um you know that's when we would say well whatever purpose it would say well whatever purpose it would say well whatever purpose it served it this isn't the this isn't the served it this isn't the this isn't the served it this isn't the this isn't the purpose but we could even say that for purpose but we could even say that for purpose but we could even say that for positive traits like um agreeableness positive traits like um agreeableness positive traits like um agreeableness for example if you could be too for example if you could be too for example if you could be too agreeable then if you're if you're agreeable then if you're if you're agreeable then if you're if you're pathologically agreeable then you know pathologically agreeable then you know pathologically agreeable then you know it might it might be useful to be a bit it might it might be useful to be a bit it might it might be useful to be a bit more disagreeable in day-to-day life more disagreeable in day-to-day life more disagreeable in day-to-day life right uh so to answer your question they right uh so to answer your question they right uh so to answer your question they exist because they exist they evolve for exist because they exist they evolve for exist because they exist they evolve for for you know randomness and also some for you know randomness and also some for you know randomness and also some useful purposes in extreme uh levels. useful purposes in extreme uh levels. useful purposes in extreme uh levels. 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What what parts of the brain are involved in empathy and self-control are involved in empathy and self-control are involved in empathy and self-control and and and and and and have we looked at have we looked at the have we looked at have we looked at the have we looked at have we looked at the brains of the what's going is it brains of the what's going is it brains of the what's going is it dopamine overload is it that the the dopamine overload is it that the the dopamine overload is it that the the amydala is firing too much what's going amydala is firing too much what's going amydala is firing too much what's going on on on >> this is something that I think is >> this is something that I think is >> this is something that I think is extremely important to bring to this extremely important to bring to this extremely important to bring to this conversation because I think often times conversation because I think often times conversation because I think often times psychology stops at um social and um you psychology stops at um social and um you psychology stops at um social and um you know caregiving know caregiving know caregiving contributions, right? Like the the contributions, right? Like the the contributions, right? Like the the original environment and things like original environment and things like original environment and things like that, but there are so many other that, but there are so many other that, but there are so many other systems involved in creating a systems involved in creating a systems involved in creating a personality or creating a trait. And you personality or creating a trait. And you personality or creating a trait. And you mentioned some of them. So, we're mentioned some of them. So, we're mentioned some of them. So, we're talking about um hormonal systems, the talking about um hormonal systems, the talking about um hormonal systems, the endocrine system, um you know, the endocrine system, um you know, the endocrine system, um you know, the nervous system, and then all of the nervous system, and then all of the nervous system, and then all of the brain networks that are communicating. I brain networks that are communicating. I brain networks that are communicating. I don't I don't really like to say that don't I don't really like to say that don't I don't really like to say that this is like there's such a thing as this is like there's such a thing as this is like there's such a thing as like a narcissistic brain where there's like a narcissistic brain where there's like a narcissistic brain where there's certain regions that look a certain way certain regions that look a certain way certain regions that look a certain way and so that's a narcissistic brain. Um and so that's a narcissistic brain. Um and so that's a narcissistic brain. Um that's a little too uh naive I would that's a little too uh naive I would that's a little too uh naive I would say. But are there regions or areas in say. But are there regions or areas in say. But are there regions or areas in the brain um that are indicative of the brain um that are indicative of the brain um that are indicative of things like a lack of empathy? Sure. things like a lack of empathy? Sure. things like a lack of empathy? Sure. Like absolutely. We see that in certain Like absolutely. We see that in certain Like absolutely. We see that in certain brains. We see that in brain imaging. We brains. We see that in brain imaging. We brains. We see that in brain imaging. We also see structural and functional also see structural and functional also see structural and functional differences in brains uh pre and post differences in brains uh pre and post differences in brains uh pre and post therapy in individuals with personality therapy in individuals with personality therapy in individuals with personality disorders. They've done studies on ch disorders. They've done studies on ch disorders. They've done studies on ch child brains like that you know they child brains like that you know they child brains like that you know they scan them prior to treatment and then scan them prior to treatment and then scan them prior to treatment and then scan them following treatment for um scan them following treatment for um scan them following treatment for um tasks related to cognitive restructuring tasks related to cognitive restructuring tasks related to cognitive restructuring mentalization based treatment and seeing mentalization based treatment and seeing mentalization based treatment and seeing that the function and structure of the that the function and structure of the that the function and structure of the brain does in fact change with certain brain does in fact change with certain brain does in fact change with certain interventions. interventions. interventions. >> Okay. So this is not this this is not a >> Okay. So this is not this this is not a >> Okay. So this is not this this is not a complete lockin. can intervene complete lockin. can intervene complete lockin. can intervene >> in some cases. Yeah. Well, in most I >> in some cases. Yeah. Well, in most I >> in some cases. Yeah. Well, in most I would say in in a lot of cases it's not would say in in a lot of cases it's not would say in in a lot of cases it's not none of this is deterministic. It's none of this is deterministic. It's none of this is deterministic. It's probabilistic and it and it's more um probabilistic and it and it's more um probabilistic and it and it's more um influential than it is like just set in influential than it is like just set in influential than it is like just set in stone. stone. stone. >> Um but there are cases I just want to be >> Um but there are cases I just want to be >> Um but there are cases I just want to be totally transparent. There are cases of totally transparent. There are cases of totally transparent. There are cases of individuals where there's not much hope individuals where there's not much hope individuals where there's not much hope for changing the operating system. for changing the operating system. for changing the operating system. >> And what does that look like from from a >> And what does that look like from from a >> And what does that look like from from a a brain chemistry perspective? like what a brain chemistry perspective? like what a brain chemistry perspective? like what differences in brain chemistry could differences in brain chemistry could differences in brain chemistry could make someone more prone to dominance or make someone more prone to dominance or make someone more prone to dominance or aggression or aggression or aggression or >> Yeah, whatever. >> Yeah, whatever. >> Yeah, whatever. >> Great question. Um, so what we see, we >> Great question. Um, so what we see, we >> Great question. Um, so what we see, we see proactive or intentional forms of see proactive or intentional forms of see proactive or intentional forms of aggression in individuals who have um aggression in individuals who have um aggression in individuals who have um like less um activation when it comes to like less um activation when it comes to like less um activation when it comes to um fear learning or consequences. So um fear learning or consequences. So um fear learning or consequences. So what I mean by that is some brains what I mean by that is some brains what I mean by that is some brains operate in a way where they don't learn operate in a way where they don't learn operate in a way where they don't learn from from from um mistakes through fear. The fear um mistakes through fear. The fear um mistakes through fear. The fear doesn't register when they do something doesn't register when they do something doesn't register when they do something pretty horrific. So there's no pretty horrific. So there's no pretty horrific. So there's no motivation to stop doing the the motivation to stop doing the the motivation to stop doing the the behavior when the fear doesn't kick in. behavior when the fear doesn't kick in. behavior when the fear doesn't kick in. There's also no arousal in the body or There's also no arousal in the body or There's also no arousal in the body or in systems that would normally say, in systems that would normally say, in systems that would normally say, "Okay, we need to be a bit hypervigilant "Okay, we need to be a bit hypervigilant "Okay, we need to be a bit hypervigilant here. We just did something. We don't here. We just did something. We don't here. We just did something. We don't like the way it feels." In some like the way it feels." In some like the way it feels." In some individuals, those things just don't individuals, those things just don't individuals, those things just don't happen. So they don't learn from the happen. So they don't learn from the happen. So they don't learn from the mistakes. So therefore, there's nothing mistakes. So therefore, there's nothing mistakes. So therefore, there's nothing in them registering to say we should in them registering to say we should in them registering to say we should stop doing this. What actually might be stop doing this. What actually might be stop doing this. What actually might be happening is it's making them feel happening is it's making them feel happening is it's making them feel better to do it, right? And it could be better to do it, right? And it could be better to do it, right? And it could be an antisocial behavior. Uh so some an antisocial behavior. Uh so some an antisocial behavior. Uh so some people are wired in such a way where people are wired in such a way where people are wired in such a way where they're motivated to continue uh they're motivated to continue uh they're motivated to continue uh participating in what most people would participating in what most people would participating in what most people would consider a negative behavior, but their consider a negative behavior, but their consider a negative behavior, but their body, their operating system is telling body, their operating system is telling body, their operating system is telling them to keep doing it because it it them to keep doing it because it it them to keep doing it because it it produces a reward or it's just um produces a reward or it's just um produces a reward or it's just um there's nothing negative about it for there's nothing negative about it for there's nothing negative about it for them. Paige yesterday said um them. Paige yesterday said um them. Paige yesterday said um basically the exact same thing. And the basically the exact same thing. And the basically the exact same thing. And the funny thing about somebody who doesn't funny thing about somebody who doesn't funny thing about somebody who doesn't learn through punishment is that much of learn through punishment is that much of learn through punishment is that much of the time when you're a kid, if you are the time when you're a kid, if you are the time when you're a kid, if you are acting out, what happens is parents acting out, what happens is parents acting out, what happens is parents begin to and and teachers begin to begin to and and teachers begin to begin to and and teachers begin to ratchet up punishment more and more and ratchet up punishment more and more and ratchet up punishment more and more and more. What you don't realize is that more. What you don't realize is that more. What you don't realize is that that that is simply the wrong pathway. that that is simply the wrong pathway. that that is simply the wrong pathway. It would be like um uh somebody having a It would be like um uh somebody having a It would be like um uh somebody having a vitamin B methylation pathway deficiency vitamin B methylation pathway deficiency vitamin B methylation pathway deficiency and you just pushing more vitamin B into and you just pushing more vitamin B into and you just pushing more vitamin B into them hoping that well it this simply them hoping that well it this simply them hoping that well it this simply does not get absorbed. And her her uh does not get absorbed. And her her uh does not get absorbed. And her her uh angle was angle was angle was >> they will learn through reinforcement of >> they will learn through reinforcement of >> they will learn through reinforcement of praise praise praise >> but not through reinforcement of >> but not through reinforcement of >> but not through reinforcement of punishment. Which means that in your punishment. Which means that in your punishment. Which means that in your example here, it's almost like people example here, it's almost like people example here, it's almost like people are kind of blind to the slings and are kind of blind to the slings and are kind of blind to the slings and arrows of uh distaste from people and arrows of uh distaste from people and arrows of uh distaste from people and they will just continue to work through they will just continue to work through they will just continue to work through until they find something that oh well until they find something that oh well until they find something that oh well that worked. That was that that seemed that worked. That was that that seemed that worked. That was that that seemed to get me closer to whatever my goal was to get me closer to whatever my goal was to get me closer to whatever my goal was for today. I'll keep doing that. No, you for today. I'll keep doing that. No, you for today. I'll keep doing that. No, you can't do that. You shouldn't do that. can't do that. You shouldn't do that. can't do that. You shouldn't do that. You've got time out. I'm taking your You've got time out. I'm taking your You've got time out. I'm taking your iPad. You're going to sit on the naughty iPad. You're going to sit on the naughty iPad. You're going to sit on the naughty step. step. step. >> Made no difference. >> Made no difference. >> Made no difference. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Try it again. Maybe in a different way. >> Try it again. Maybe in a different way. >> Try it again. Maybe in a different way. Ratchet it up a little bit more. The Ratchet it up a little bit more. The Ratchet it up a little bit more. The punishment comes back in again. No punishment comes back in again. No punishment comes back in again. No difference. Doesn't Not learning from difference. Doesn't Not learning from difference. Doesn't Not learning from this. Not learning from that. I'm just this. Not learning from that. I'm just this. Not learning from that. I'm just uh heat seeeking missile for uh heat seeeking missile for uh heat seeeking missile for effectiveness without the sort of effectiveness without the sort of effectiveness without the sort of overlying uh social mores uh and the overlying uh social mores uh and the overlying uh social mores uh and the discomfort you for the people who've got discomfort you for the people who've got discomfort you for the people who've got lep spirit dcalier staircase wit in lep spirit dcalier staircase wit in lep spirit dcalier staircase wit in French um kind that sense of ah I I French um kind that sense of ah I I French um kind that sense of ah I I really wish that I'd said that thing as really wish that I'd said that thing as really wish that I'd said that thing as opposed to I just don't reflect on my opposed to I just don't reflect on my opposed to I just don't reflect on my behavior in that kind of a manner. behavior in that kind of a manner. behavior in that kind of a manner. >> That's exactly right. So what we see in >> That's exactly right. So what we see in >> That's exactly right. So what we see in the operating systems of the more severe the operating systems of the more severe the operating systems of the more severe to extreme personality disorders is we to extreme personality disorders is we to extreme personality disorders is we see um a lack of a lack of capacity but see um a lack of a lack of capacity but see um a lack of a lack of capacity but also interest in collaboration. also interest in collaboration. also interest in collaboration. So imagine imagine if your starting So imagine imagine if your starting So imagine imagine if your starting point is I'm I'm not interested in point is I'm I'm not interested in point is I'm I'm not interested in collaborating with people. Right? That's how they that so so Right? That's how they that so so there's that there's a problem right there's that there's a problem right there's that there's a problem right there. There's a lack of collaborative there. There's a lack of collaborative there. There's a lack of collaborative capacity or interest. There's a lack of capacity or interest. There's a lack of capacity or interest. There's a lack of problem solving capacity or interest in problem solving capacity or interest in problem solving capacity or interest in these individuals. There's a lack of these individuals. There's a lack of these individuals. There's a lack of self-reflective capacity and interest. self-reflective capacity and interest. self-reflective capacity and interest. And there's a lack of um self-corrective And there's a lack of um self-corrective And there's a lack of um self-corrective capacity and interest. So, capacity and interest. So, capacity and interest. So, um um um we have to stop making the mistake of we have to stop making the mistake of we have to stop making the mistake of thinking that that there is no variation thinking that that there is no variation thinking that that there is no variation between individuals in what motivates between individuals in what motivates between individuals in what motivates them. Uh and and interestingly enough them. Uh and and interestingly enough them. Uh and and interestingly enough too with the severe personality too with the severe personality too with the severe personality disorders that create the interpersonal disorders that create the interpersonal disorders that create the interpersonal strife, strife, strife, more nurture and empathy for them more nurture and empathy for them more nurture and empathy for them actually makes them more exploitative. actually makes them more exploitative. actually makes them more exploitative. Oh, hang on. So no, wait, wait a second. Oh, hang on. So no, wait, wait a second. Oh, hang on. So no, wait, wait a second. So you're you're telling me that a lot of these you're telling me that a lot of these people are immune to punishment people are immune to punishment people are immune to punishment and and and encouraged by empathy. encouraged by empathy. encouraged by empathy. >> Yes. Now, we see we see this in we Now, we see we see this in we actually see this in clinical practice, actually see this in clinical practice, actually see this in clinical practice, which is interesting because when you which is interesting because when you which is interesting because when you work with individuals who uh have severe work with individuals who uh have severe work with individuals who uh have severe personality disorders, they actively personality disorders, they actively personality disorders, they actively um um um put wrenches in the therapy process. put wrenches in the therapy process. put wrenches in the therapy process. They derail the process. They derail the process. They derail the process. >> In what ways? >> In what ways? >> In what ways? Well, they exploit your empathy and your Well, they exploit your empathy and your Well, they exploit your empathy and your unconditional positive regard for them unconditional positive regard for them unconditional positive regard for them and you believing their narrative. They and you believing their narrative. They and you believing their narrative. They exploit all that. So, treating them and exploit all that. So, treating them and exploit all that. So, treating them and dealing with them in a clinical setting dealing with them in a clinical setting dealing with them in a clinical setting is is is one very telling of how they is is is one very telling of how they is is is one very telling of how they operate in their personal lives where operate in their personal lives where operate in their personal lives where they're derailing and manipulating the they're derailing and manipulating the they're derailing and manipulating the narrative so that you guys don't reach a narrative so that you guys don't reach a narrative so that you guys don't reach a common ground. Seems like completely common ground. Seems like completely common ground. Seems like completely counterintuitive to most people, but counterintuitive to most people, but counterintuitive to most people, but that's what they're in fact doing. that's what they're in fact doing. that's what they're in fact doing. They're making it so that you can't They're making it so that you can't They're making it so that you can't reach a common ground with them. Um, reach a common ground with them. Um, reach a common ground with them. Um, so there's that. so there's that. so there's that. >> So, sorry, just on that, they're trying >> So, sorry, just on that, they're trying >> So, sorry, just on that, they're trying to maintain maintain control and to maintain maintain control and to maintain maintain control and distance. distance. distance. >> I'll give you what >> I'll give you what >> I'll give you what I know, what I think that you want from I know, what I think that you want from I know, what I think that you want from me, some sort of performative revelation me, some sort of performative revelation me, some sort of performative revelation or revealing a degree of uh titrated or revealing a degree of uh titrated or revealing a degree of uh titrated uh information that I've given you, but uh information that I've given you, but uh information that I've given you, but that's probably fake as well. Uh, that's probably fake as well. Uh, that's probably fake as well. Uh, because I understand the dynamic. I because I understand the dynamic. I because I understand the dynamic. I understand what your reward function is. understand what your reward function is. understand what your reward function is. Ooh, I've really got them to open up Ooh, I've really got them to open up Ooh, I've really got them to open up during this session. And that allows the during this session. And that allows the during this session. And that allows the therapeutic relationship to keep going. therapeutic relationship to keep going. therapeutic relationship to keep going. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> In in a manner that it's supposed to, >> In in a manner that it's supposed to, >> In in a manner that it's supposed to, like within the rules of the game like within the rules of the game like within the rules of the game without actually having to play the without actually having to play the without actually having to play the game. game. game. >> Correct. Well, yes. Well, seemingly that >> Correct. Well, yes. Well, seemingly that >> Correct. Well, yes. Well, seemingly that and most therapists and most therapists and most therapists this goes over their head. So they're this goes over their head. So they're this goes over their head. So they're thinking that you're making like great thinking that you're making like great thinking that you're making like great strides and you're progressing because strides and you're progressing because strides and you're progressing because you're feigning collaboration. you're feigning collaboration. you're feigning collaboration. >> Have you ever wor So I I understand that >> Have you ever wor So I I understand that >> Have you ever wor So I I understand that you work with the victims of these you work with the victims of these you work with the victims of these people. Have you ever worked directly people. Have you ever worked directly people. Have you ever worked directly with the the people themselves? with the the people themselves? with the the people themselves? >> Yeah. I should clarify. I used to. I >> Yeah. I should clarify. I used to. I >> Yeah. I should clarify. I used to. I don't anymore, but I used to for a very don't anymore, but I used to for a very don't anymore, but I used to for a very long long long >> Okay. You're you're a little bit like an >> Okay. You're you're a little bit like an >> Okay. You're you're a little bit like an ex undercover cop that's now turned into ex undercover cop that's now turned into ex undercover cop that's now turned into a a proper detective or whatever. Um so a a proper detective or whatever. Um so a a proper detective or whatever. Um so >> tell me what it's like. Tell me, tell me >> tell me what it's like. Tell me, tell me >> tell me what it's like. Tell me, tell me what it's like to sit down opposite what it's like to sit down opposite what it's like to sit down opposite somebody who has somebody who has somebody who has 99th percentile cluster B personality 99th percentile cluster B personality 99th percentile cluster B personality disorder. Just like just describe that disorder. Just like just describe that disorder. Just like just describe that experience. experience. experience. >> When we're talking about in in a in a >> When we're talking about in in a in a >> When we're talking about in in a in a therapeutic context, something that's therapeutic context, something that's therapeutic context, something that's really important to mention is is really important to mention is is really important to mention is is transference and counter transference. transference and counter transference. transference and counter transference. So, um, do I do you want me to go into So, um, do I do you want me to go into So, um, do I do you want me to go into that for your audience? Yeah, give us a that for your audience? Yeah, give us a that for your audience? Yeah, give us a give us a give us a brief overview. I give us a give us a brief overview. I give us a give us a brief overview. I learned that, you know, interestingly learned that, you know, interestingly learned that, you know, interestingly enough, I'm grinning because it's one of enough, I'm grinning because it's one of enough, I'm grinning because it's one of the few things that I've learned from the few things that I've learned from the few things that I've learned from reading chick novels. I read uh the reading chick novels. I read uh the reading chick novels. I read uh the silent patient by uh Alex Michael Lades silent patient by uh Alex Michael Lades silent patient by uh Alex Michael Lades or Andrew Michael Lades. Uh, and in it, or Andrew Michael Lades. Uh, and in it, or Andrew Michael Lades. Uh, and in it, one of the main protagonists is a one of the main protagonists is a one of the main protagonists is a therapist who's trying to get this therapist who's trying to get this therapist who's trying to get this patient to speak. And um, he goes to his patient to speak. And um, he goes to his patient to speak. And um, he goes to his co head therapist who's trying to co head therapist who's trying to co head therapist who's trying to >> help him get through this very difficult >> help him get through this very difficult >> help him get through this very difficult patient. And there's this line, tell me patient. And there's this line, tell me patient. And there's this line, tell me about the transference and counter about the transference and counter about the transference and counter transference. And this was as I was transference. And this was as I was transference. And this was as I was starting to do therapy about two years starting to do therapy about two years starting to do therapy about two years ago. And um, I went in ago. And um, I went in ago. And um, I went in >> all all impressed with myself to tell my >> all all impressed with myself to tell my >> all all impressed with myself to tell my therapist that I learned what therapist that I learned what therapist that I learned what transference and counter transference transference and counter transference transference and counter transference was. But I didn't learn about it from was. But I didn't learn about it from was. But I didn't learn about it from proper research. which I learned about proper research. which I learned about proper research. which I learned about it from reading like an absolute like it from reading like an absolute like it from reading like an absolute like USA Today bestselling chick thriller. Uh USA Today bestselling chick thriller. Uh USA Today bestselling chick thriller. Uh but anyway, transfer and counter but anyway, transfer and counter but anyway, transfer and counter transfer. You're sitting down with transfer. You're sitting down with transfer. You're sitting down with somebody with cluster B, etc. somebody with cluster B, etc. somebody with cluster B, etc. >> Yeah. Well, I mean just just in general, >> Yeah. Well, I mean just just in general, >> Yeah. Well, I mean just just in general, we we we all transfer and counter we we we all transfer and counter we we we all transfer and counter transfer in life in human relationships. transfer in life in human relationships. transfer in life in human relationships. It's not just exclusive to therapy, but It's not just exclusive to therapy, but It's not just exclusive to therapy, but it's important to notice that it's it's important to notice that it's it's important to notice that it's happening in therapy because it gives happening in therapy because it gives happening in therapy because it gives you a lot of information as far as you a lot of information as far as you a lot of information as far as what's happening in the interaction. So what's happening in the interaction. So what's happening in the interaction. So I mean transference uh in the simplest I mean transference uh in the simplest I mean transference uh in the simplest terms is the feelings that are terms is the feelings that are terms is the feelings that are transferred onto the therapist by the transferred onto the therapist by the transferred onto the therapist by the patient. Counter transference are some patient. Counter transference are some patient. Counter transference are some of the feelings or emotional reactions of the feelings or emotional reactions of the feelings or emotional reactions that take place inside of the therapist that take place inside of the therapist that take place inside of the therapist while they are in interacting with the while they are in interacting with the while they are in interacting with the patient. So the reason why that's patient. So the reason why that's patient. So the reason why that's relevant is because we get to ask cool relevant is because we get to ask cool relevant is because we get to ask cool questions like would I have been feeling questions like would I have been feeling questions like would I have been feeling this if I were sitting with anyone else this if I were sitting with anyone else this if I were sitting with anyone else right now or is this feeling that just right now or is this feeling that just right now or is this feeling that just got activated in me is it directly got activated in me is it directly got activated in me is it directly related to the dynamic of this of this related to the dynamic of this of this related to the dynamic of this of this person with that I'm interacting with person with that I'm interacting with person with that I'm interacting with because it starts to tell you because it starts to tell you because it starts to tell you information about how maybe other people information about how maybe other people information about how maybe other people are experiencing them outside of of are experiencing them outside of of are experiencing them outside of of therapy in their personal life that therapy in their personal life that therapy in their personal life that maybe they're not super aware of and maybe they're not super aware of and maybe they're not super aware of and they might actually even a narcissist they might actually even a narcissist they might actually even a narcissist could genuinely come into a therapy could genuinely come into a therapy could genuinely come into a therapy office and not have a clue why everybody office and not have a clue why everybody office and not have a clue why everybody thinks they're so insensitive, thinks they're so insensitive, thinks they're so insensitive, right? Um, all the while the therapist right? Um, all the while the therapist right? Um, all the while the therapist is picking up on their insensitivity and is picking up on their insensitivity and is picking up on their insensitivity and having a counter transference reaction having a counter transference reaction having a counter transference reaction to this insensitivity. Like, gosh, it to this insensitivity. Like, gosh, it to this insensitivity. Like, gosh, it feels hard to sit in a room with this feels hard to sit in a room with this feels hard to sit in a room with this person. I feel incompetent. I feel person. I feel incompetent. I feel person. I feel incompetent. I feel scared. I feel like different than I did scared. I feel like different than I did scared. I feel like different than I did before they showed up. Right? So it's a before they showed up. Right? So it's a before they showed up. Right? So it's a it's really important. But the typical it's really important. But the typical it's really important. But the typical counter transference that results when counter transference that results when counter transference that results when you're sitting um with somebody who you're sitting um with somebody who you're sitting um with somebody who meets the criteria for cluster B or I I meets the criteria for cluster B or I I meets the criteria for cluster B or I I should say yeah typical or common should say yeah typical or common should say yeah typical or common counter transference. So what the counter transference. So what the counter transference. So what the therapist feels in the room with them is therapist feels in the room with them is therapist feels in the room with them is you feel I I I said a couple of them you feel I I I said a couple of them you feel I I I said a couple of them just now. You often times you just start just now. You often times you just start just now. You often times you just start to overwhelmingly feel incompetent like to overwhelmingly feel incompetent like to overwhelmingly feel incompetent like you don't know how to do your job or you don't know how to do your job or you don't know how to do your job or you're not qualified to do your job. And you're not qualified to do your job. And you're not qualified to do your job. And remember, this is just coming as you're remember, this is just coming as you're remember, this is just coming as you're sitting with someone. It's you weren't sitting with someone. It's you weren't sitting with someone. It's you weren't thinking about it earlier today on the thinking about it earlier today on the thinking about it earlier today on the drive to work. You were thinking, "Oh, I drive to work. You were thinking, "Oh, I drive to work. You were thinking, "Oh, I can't wait to go to work. I I do a can't wait to go to work. I I do a can't wait to go to work. I I do a pretty good job. You know, I have a full pretty good job. You know, I have a full pretty good job. You know, I have a full practice." Then this person comes in and practice." Then this person comes in and practice." Then this person comes in and all of a sudden you feel like you can't all of a sudden you feel like you can't all of a sudden you feel like you can't do your job. Right? So that's do your job. Right? So that's do your job. Right? So that's >> what is it? What is it? What is it? What >> what is it? What is it? What is it? What >> what is it? What is it? What is it? What are they doing? What is it? are they doing? What is it? are they doing? What is it? >> They're devaluing you >> They're devaluing you >> They're devaluing you and not telling you that they're and not telling you that they're and not telling you that they're devaluing you, devaluing you, devaluing you, but you're starting to feel incompetent. but you're starting to feel incompetent. but you're starting to feel incompetent. So this is something that that somebody So this is something that that somebody So this is something that that somebody with pretty severe personality pathology with pretty severe personality pathology with pretty severe personality pathology can sort of just put into the can sort of just put into the can sort of just put into the environment. They can export this out environment. They can export this out environment. They can export this out into the environment without saying a into the environment without saying a into the environment without saying a word. word. word. >> Do you think they mean to is this is >> Do you think they mean to is this is >> Do you think they mean to is this is this uh an outcome that they want or is this uh an outcome that they want or is this uh an outcome that they want or is this a spandrel that's come along for this a spandrel that's come along for this a spandrel that's come along for the ride? the ride? the ride? >> So earlier you were asking about purpose >> So earlier you were asking about purpose >> So earlier you were asking about purpose evolutionary perspective. I would say evolutionary perspective. I would say evolutionary perspective. I would say this is an evolutionary perspective that this is an evolutionary perspective that this is an evolutionary perspective that would be important to look into. um can would be important to look into. um can would be important to look into. um can they put this spell into the they put this spell into the they put this spell into the environment, into the air for some sort environment, into the air for some sort environment, into the air for some sort of a advantage for themselves that they of a advantage for themselves that they of a advantage for themselves that they might not even fully be aware of in the might not even fully be aware of in the might not even fully be aware of in the moment, but it's it's happening and it's moment, but it's it's happening and it's moment, but it's it's happening and it's starting to work for them. starting to work for them. starting to work for them. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> it makes people it makes people want to >> it makes people it makes people want to >> it makes people it makes people want to compete. Allow me to show you just how compete. Allow me to show you just how compete. Allow me to show you just how competent I am. No, no, no, no. I I will competent I am. No, no, no, no. I I will competent I am. No, no, no, no. I I will do I will overd deliver. I will over do I will overd deliver. I will over do I will overd deliver. I will over because there is this odd sense of because there is this odd sense of because there is this odd sense of interpersonal competition of one. interpersonal competition of one. interpersonal competition of one. >> Oh, it's actually of none, right? It's >> Oh, it's actually of none, right? It's >> Oh, it's actually of none, right? It's just you, just you, just you, >> right? It's not a It's not a competition >> right? It's not a It's not a competition >> right? It's not a It's not a competition between you. It's that I need to prove between you. It's that I need to prove between you. It's that I need to prove myself because you don't seem impressed myself because you don't seem impressed myself because you don't seem impressed by me. Be impressed by me. Okay, I'll do by me. Be impressed by me. Okay, I'll do by me. Be impressed by me. Okay, I'll do a bit more. I'll do a bit more. I'll do a bit more. I'll do a bit more. I'll do a bit more. I'll do a bit more. I'll do a bit more. Be be finally, please just a bit more. Be be finally, please just a bit more. Be be finally, please just recognize that I'm here. recognize that I'm here. recognize that I'm here. >> Yeah. Or >> Yeah. Or >> Yeah. Or if I can get the professional to tell me if I can get the professional to tell me if I can get the professional to tell me to feel incompetent, then I'm I get to to feel incompetent, then I'm I get to to feel incompetent, then I'm I get to um direct the treatment, which means um direct the treatment, which means um direct the treatment, which means maybe if they feel incompetent, they'll maybe if they feel incompetent, they'll maybe if they feel incompetent, they'll agree with me more. So, see, I I I take agree with me more. So, see, I I I take agree with me more. So, see, I I I take them off their I take them off their them off their I take them off their them off their I take them off their high horse of expertise. Now, I get to high horse of expertise. Now, I get to high horse of expertise. Now, I get to kind of get what I want from them a kind of get what I want from them a kind of get what I want from them a little bit. You know, maybe maybe I little bit. You know, maybe maybe I little bit. You know, maybe maybe I could pull the wool over their eyes. could pull the wool over their eyes. could pull the wool over their eyes. >> So, they're a bit more vulnerable. This >> So, they're a bit more vulnerable. This >> So, they're a bit more vulnerable. This isn't exactly 100% conscious, but to me, isn't exactly 100% conscious, but to me, isn't exactly 100% conscious, but to me, I would still even const I would still I would still even const I would still I would still even const I would still refer to that tactic as intentional refer to that tactic as intentional refer to that tactic as intentional abuse because you're not you're not abuse because you're not you're not abuse because you're not you're not showing up showing up showing up um with the intention of playing fair um with the intention of playing fair um with the intention of playing fair even in the conversation, even in the conversation, even in the conversation, >> you know. So, >> you know. So, >> you know. So, >> what else what what else do you feel? >> what else what what else do you feel? >> what else what what else do you feel? >> Um fear >> Um fear >> Um fear and dread. and dread. and dread. Okay. And it's not always like 100% Okay. And it's not always like 100% Okay. And it's not always like 100% conscious of what you fear or what the conscious of what you fear or what the conscious of what you fear or what the dread is, but you can all of a sudden dread is, but you can all of a sudden dread is, but you can all of a sudden come up with this feeling. We also have come up with this feeling. We also have come up with this feeling. We also have a detection or a deception detection a detection or a deception detection a detection or a deception detection network in our brain network in our brain network in our brain uh which gets hijacked by these types of uh which gets hijacked by these types of uh which gets hijacked by these types of tactics. You you you feel it. You and tactics. You you you feel it. You and tactics. You you you feel it. You and you stop thinking if if you get somebody you stop thinking if if you get somebody you stop thinking if if you get somebody who's good enough at manipulation, you who's good enough at manipulation, you who's good enough at manipulation, you could stop thinking, hm, I'm feeling could stop thinking, hm, I'm feeling could stop thinking, hm, I'm feeling incompetent. I wasn't before. Now I am. incompetent. I wasn't before. Now I am. incompetent. I wasn't before. Now I am. What's that about? You might just think, What's that about? You might just think, What's that about? You might just think, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I maybe I'm not as good as I thought I maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was. was. was. And that would be a really important And that would be a really important And that would be a really important thing for a victim of a narcissist to to thing for a victim of a narcissist to to thing for a victim of a narcissist to to say to themselves. Maybe I'm not as say to themselves. Maybe I'm not as say to themselves. Maybe I'm not as >> Oh, of course. Because that's >> Oh, of course. Because that's >> Oh, of course. Because that's dissolved their defenses around I'm not dissolved their defenses around I'm not dissolved their defenses around I'm not in the wrong. They're in the wrong. in the wrong. They're in the wrong. in the wrong. They're in the wrong. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this happens in milliseconds, by the And this happens in milliseconds, by the And this happens in milliseconds, by the way. This is all happening unconsciously way. This is all happening unconsciously way. This is all happening unconsciously when you're interacting with someone. when you're interacting with someone. when you're interacting with someone. So, so someone like me, you know, I'm a So, so someone like me, you know, I'm a So, so someone like me, you know, I'm a few steps ahead, but not by any means few steps ahead, but not by any means few steps ahead, but not by any means immune. And I would never tell anybody immune. And I would never tell anybody immune. And I would never tell anybody because even the the foremost experts of because even the the foremost experts of because even the the foremost experts of this would never claim that they could this would never claim that they could this would never claim that they could never be sucker punched, um, never be sucker punched, um, never be sucker punched, um, >> dazed, finessed. >> dazed, finessed. >> dazed, finessed. >> Yeah. But, um, it's not really about >> Yeah. But, um, it's not really about >> Yeah. But, um, it's not really about becoming a human lie detector and becoming a human lie detector and becoming a human lie detector and knowing what what everyone else is all knowing what what everyone else is all knowing what what everyone else is all about. That's not what you're trying to about. That's not what you're trying to about. That's not what you're trying to do. But you're trying to notice when I'm do. But you're trying to notice when I'm do. But you're trying to notice when I'm with this particular person, I feel with this particular person, I feel with this particular person, I feel incompetent. I feel dread. I feel incompetent. I feel dread. I feel incompetent. I feel dread. I feel >> fear. I feel insecurity. And in most >> fear. I feel insecurity. And in most >> fear. I feel insecurity. And in most other relationships in my life, I don't other relationships in my life, I don't other relationships in my life, I don't operate that way. What's happening in operate that way. What's happening in operate that way. What's happening in this particular dynamic that's making me this particular dynamic that's making me this particular dynamic that's making me feel that way. Um, that's kind of some feel that way. Um, that's kind of some feel that way. Um, that's kind of some things that a therapist would want to things that a therapist would want to things that a therapist would want to certainly be aware of um if they're certainly be aware of um if they're certainly be aware of um if they're interacting with someone who potentially interacting with someone who potentially interacting with someone who potentially has a a socially maladaptive has a a socially maladaptive has a a socially maladaptive personality. A quick aside, if your personality. A quick aside, if your personality. 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How you mentioned there about these How you mentioned there about these How you mentioned there about these people don't even mean to do it. It's people don't even mean to do it. It's people don't even mean to do it. It's happening in in some forms unconsciously happening in in some forms unconsciously happening in in some forms unconsciously and in others of the and in others of the and in others of the of the population of cluster B of the population of cluster B of the population of cluster B personality antisocial personality personality antisocial personality personality antisocial personality disorder disorder disorder >> uh p people patients how many of them >> uh p people patients how many of them >> uh p people patients how many of them know what they're doing and mean to do know what they're doing and mean to do know what they're doing and mean to do it and how many of them are at the mercy it and how many of them are at the mercy it and how many of them are at the mercy of their programming and I suppose this of their programming and I suppose this of their programming and I suppose this is a difficult question because what is a difficult question because what is a difficult question because what we're talking about here is uh agency we're talking about here is uh agency we're talking about here is uh agency over empathy and ability to recognize over empathy and ability to recognize over empathy and ability to recognize and wish to do different. But and wish to do different. But and wish to do different. But unfortunately, the very personality unfortunately, the very personality unfortunately, the very personality trait that we're talking about cails trait that we're talking about cails trait that we're talking about cails your ability to do the empathy thing. So your ability to do the empathy thing. So your ability to do the empathy thing. So it might be hard for someone to it might be hard for someone to it might be hard for someone to empathize with the damage of their lack empathize with the damage of their lack empathize with the damage of their lack of empathy and wish that they could do of empathy and wish that they could do of empathy and wish that they could do different. Would you understand the different. Would you understand the different. Would you understand the question here? Like how many people question here? Like how many people question here? Like how many people revel in what they're doing and how many revel in what they're doing and how many revel in what they're doing and how many people are fighting against it? people are fighting against it? people are fighting against it? >> Yeah, it's a great question. >> Yeah, it's a great question. >> Yeah, it's a great question. So these are what we call um egoonic So these are what we call um egoonic So these are what we call um egoonic disorders. What that means is they're disorders. What that means is they're disorders. What that means is they're comfortable in their own skin. Okay? So comfortable in their own skin. Okay? So comfortable in their own skin. Okay? So they're not experiencing they're not experiencing they're not experiencing the aftermath of these interactions as the aftermath of these interactions as the aftermath of these interactions as symptoms or side effects and wondering symptoms or side effects and wondering symptoms or side effects and wondering what am I going to do about this? Every what am I going to do about this? Every what am I going to do about this? Every time I'm in a room with somebody, they time I'm in a room with somebody, they time I'm in a room with somebody, they start to feel fearful. What's wrong with start to feel fearful. What's wrong with start to feel fearful. What's wrong with me? They don't think that way. Um if a me? They don't think that way. Um if a me? They don't think that way. Um if a person who would think that way would be person who would think that way would be person who would think that way would be experiencing um something that's experiencing um something that's experiencing um something that's egoistonic, ego distonia. This is egoistonic, ego distonia. This is egoistonic, ego distonia. This is interfering in my life in a way that I interfering in my life in a way that I interfering in my life in a way that I can't tolerate it. It's making me can't tolerate it. It's making me can't tolerate it. It's making me uncomfortable. I want to rid myself of uncomfortable. I want to rid myself of uncomfortable. I want to rid myself of it. I'm going to do whatever it takes to it. I'm going to do whatever it takes to it. I'm going to do whatever it takes to stop doing this thing, feeling this stop doing this thing, feeling this stop doing this thing, feeling this thing, saying this thing, having this thing, saying this thing, having this thing, saying this thing, having this dream, whatever. That's egoistonic. That dream, whatever. That's egoistonic. That dream, whatever. That's egoistonic. That means the person's aware that it's a means the person's aware that it's a means the person's aware that it's a problem. They don't like that it's problem. They don't like that it's problem. They don't like that it's originating in themselves. They want to originating in themselves. They want to originating in themselves. They want to get rid of it. Personality disorders get rid of it. Personality disorders get rid of it. Personality disorders don't have that process because they don't have that process because they don't have that process because they have these are egoonic. So what that have these are egoonic. So what that have these are egoonic. So what that means is they're in harmony with the way means is they're in harmony with the way means is they're in harmony with the way they are. They just experience conflict they are. They just experience conflict they are. They just experience conflict when other people confront them about when other people confront them about when other people confront them about the way they are. So so nothing in them the way they are. So so nothing in them the way they are. So so nothing in them is internally motivated to to change is internally motivated to to change is internally motivated to to change because they don't think they that the because they don't think they that the because they don't think they that the problem is originating with them. Okay. problem is originating with them. Okay. problem is originating with them. Okay. So that's one part of this. How So that's one part of this. How So that's one part of this. How intentional as a result of that? I would intentional as a result of that? I would intentional as a result of that? I would say it's as intentional as say it's as intentional as say it's as intentional as um an introvert cultivating environments um an introvert cultivating environments um an introvert cultivating environments to cater to their introversion. That's to cater to their introversion. That's to cater to their introversion. That's how intentional it is. Right? So, what I how intentional it is. Right? So, what I how intentional it is. Right? So, what I mean by that is if if you're an mean by that is if if you're an mean by that is if if you're an introvert, you're going to you're going introvert, you're going to you're going introvert, you're going to you're going to select environments that cater to to select environments that cater to to select environments that cater to your introversion, your natural your introversion, your natural your introversion, your natural inclination to be introverted. And what inclination to be introverted. And what inclination to be introverted. And what what does introversion entail, right? what does introversion entail, right? what does introversion entail, right? So, you're going to start creating So, you're going to start creating So, you're going to start creating environments that cater to that trait. environments that cater to that trait. environments that cater to that trait. And that's exactly what uh individuals And that's exactly what uh individuals And that's exactly what uh individuals with personality disorders do. They with personality disorders do. They with personality disorders do. They cultivate, select, modify their cultivate, select, modify their cultivate, select, modify their environments environments environments intentionally intentionally intentionally based on the traits that they bring to based on the traits that they bring to based on the traits that they bring to the environment. the environment. the environment. >> What sort of ways, what are the things >> What sort of ways, what are the things >> What sort of ways, what are the things that they do? Well, like an like a a that they do? Well, like an like a a that they do? Well, like an like a a narcissist who wants to, you know, be narcissist who wants to, you know, be narcissist who wants to, you know, be the center of attention is going to find the center of attention is going to find the center of attention is going to find a way to make um an environment they're a way to make um an environment they're a way to make um an environment they're in. They're going to cultivate the in. They're going to cultivate the in. They're going to cultivate the environment and select things to say and environment and select things to say and environment and select things to say and do and operate in the environment to get do and operate in the environment to get do and operate in the environment to get what they want from it, which is what they want from it, which is what they want from it, which is attention. So, they're going to they're attention. So, they're going to they're attention. So, they're going to they're going to intentionally behave in ways going to intentionally behave in ways going to intentionally behave in ways that are attention seeking. Whereas an that are attention seeking. Whereas an that are attention seeking. Whereas an introvert is going to intentionally introvert is going to intentionally introvert is going to intentionally behave in ways that draw attention to behave in ways that draw attention to behave in ways that draw attention to others and then they're going to regroup others and then they're going to regroup others and then they're going to regroup privately rather than go get stimulated privately rather than go get stimulated privately rather than go get stimulated socially because that's not it doesn't socially because that's not it doesn't socially because that's not it doesn't do it for them. Um so whatever the trait do it for them. Um so whatever the trait do it for them. Um so whatever the trait is, those behaviors are going to um is, those behaviors are going to um is, those behaviors are going to um the the behaviors that you engage in are the the behaviors that you engage in are the the behaviors that you engage in are going to be motivated to make that to going to be motivated to make that to going to be motivated to make that to cultivate how you feel with that trait. cultivate how you feel with that trait. cultivate how you feel with that trait. >> Why is why is it called cluster B? Is >> Why is why is it called cluster B? Is >> Why is why is it called cluster B? Is there a cluster A? Yeah, there's Yeah, there a cluster A? Yeah, there's Yeah, there a cluster A? Yeah, there's Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, they're cl it's a good question. I mean, they're cl it's a good question. I mean, they're cl they're called cluster disorders because they're called cluster disorders because they're called cluster disorders because the symptoms the features not symptoms, the symptoms the features not symptoms, the symptoms the features not symptoms, the features and characteristics cluster the features and characteristics cluster the features and characteristics cluster together and overlap in different together and overlap in different together and overlap in different disorders. Um there's cluster A. Um the disorders. Um there's cluster A. Um the disorders. Um there's cluster A. Um the cluster A's are considered the odd and cluster A's are considered the odd and cluster A's are considered the odd and eccentric bunch. So um odd kind of eccentric bunch. So um odd kind of eccentric bunch. So um odd kind of bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors. bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors. bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors. Um the cluster B's are the more Um the cluster B's are the more Um the cluster B's are the more interpersonally manipulative, interpersonally manipulative, interpersonally manipulative, exploitative, dramatic, erratic. So exploitative, dramatic, erratic. So exploitative, dramatic, erratic. So those are the cluster B's. And then the those are the cluster B's. And then the those are the cluster B's. And then the cluster C's are the anxious and fearful cluster C's are the anxious and fearful cluster C's are the anxious and fearful cluster. So disorders that operate cluster. So disorders that operate cluster. So disorders that operate around fear and anxiety being like the around fear and anxiety being like the around fear and anxiety being like the central feature rather than drama or central feature rather than drama or central feature rather than drama or erratic or dangerous, which is what we erratic or dangerous, which is what we erratic or dangerous, which is what we would typically describe the cluster would typically describe the cluster would typically describe the cluster bees. What would a commonly understood bees. What would a commonly understood bees. What would a commonly understood term be for people who are cluster A? term be for people who are cluster A? term be for people who are cluster A? >> What would a commonly under the term be? >> What would a commonly under the term be? >> What would a commonly under the term be? >> Yeah. You know, you're talking about >> Yeah. You know, you're talking about >> Yeah. You know, you're talking about narcissist and uh narcissist and uh narcissist and uh >> Okay. Um like paranoid or um >> Okay. Um like paranoid or um >> Okay. Um like paranoid or um >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Or um schiz skitsoid or schizoid is >> Or um schiz skitsoid or schizoid is >> Or um schiz skitsoid or schizoid is interchangeably pronounced that way. Um interchangeably pronounced that way. Um interchangeably pronounced that way. Um the other cluster A is um schizotiple. the other cluster A is um schizotiple. the other cluster A is um schizotiple. So we have schizotiple, schizoid uh or So we have schizotiple, schizoid uh or So we have schizotiple, schizoid uh or schizoid and um paranoid are the cluster schizoid and um paranoid are the cluster schizoid and um paranoid are the cluster A's. And then the cluster C's are the A's. And then the cluster C's are the A's. And then the cluster C's are the avoidant, the dependent avoidant, the dependent avoidant, the dependent um and the um um and the um um and the um I'm drawing a blank here as I'm on the I'm drawing a blank here as I'm on the I'm drawing a blank here as I'm on the spot. What's the third uh what's the third cluster C? what's the third cluster C? Obsessivecompulsive personality Obsessivecompulsive personality Obsessivecompulsive personality disorder. There's avoidant disorder. There's avoidant disorder. There's avoidant obsessivempulsive personality which is obsessivempulsive personality which is obsessivempulsive personality which is completely different than OCD. Those completely different than OCD. Those completely different than OCD. Those aren't the same. aren't the same. aren't the same. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> okay. So when we look at uh cluster A, >> okay. So when we look at uh cluster A, >> okay. So when we look at uh cluster A, cluster B, and cluster C, do these fit cluster B, and cluster C, do these fit cluster B, and cluster C, do these fit on a spectrum? If you were to make a 3D on a spectrum? If you were to make a 3D on a spectrum? If you were to make a 3D or a 2D or a 2D or a 2D graph of how the clusters sit together, graph of how the clusters sit together, graph of how the clusters sit together, does that exist or are these completely does that exist or are these completely does that exist or are these completely different universes? different universes? different universes? >> So, they're not completely different >> So, they're not completely different >> So, they're not completely different universes because the problems that they universes because the problems that they universes because the problems that they create in the individual and in the uh create in the individual and in the uh create in the individual and in the uh individual's relationships are directly individual's relationships are directly individual's relationships are directly related to related to related to the who the person characteristically the who the person characteristically the who the person characteristically is. So in cluster A's, these individuals is. So in cluster A's, these individuals is. So in cluster A's, these individuals are characteristically odd and are characteristically odd and are characteristically odd and eccentric. Okay. In cluster B's, they're eccentric. Okay. In cluster B's, they're eccentric. Okay. In cluster B's, they're characteristically characteristically characteristically um dramatic, erratic, dangerous, and um dramatic, erratic, dangerous, and um dramatic, erratic, dangerous, and severe interpersonally. And then in the severe interpersonally. And then in the severe interpersonally. And then in the cluster C's, they're characteristically cluster C's, they're characteristically cluster C's, they're characteristically um fearful and anxious. um fearful and anxious. um fearful and anxious. So all their relationships operate based So all their relationships operate based So all their relationships operate based on those types of motivations or on those types of motivations or on those types of motivations or intrinsic perceptions. intrinsic perceptions. intrinsic perceptions. >> Okay, that's interesting. All right, >> Okay, that's interesting. All right, >> Okay, that's interesting. All right, going back to the sort of nature nurture going back to the sort of nature nurture going back to the sort of nature nurture debate, why is the idea that hurt people debate, why is the idea that hurt people debate, why is the idea that hurt people hurt people so attractive? What makes hurt people so attractive? What makes hurt people so attractive? What makes that such a seductive explanation if that such a seductive explanation if that such a seductive explanation if behavioral genetics and Robert Plowman behavioral genetics and Robert Plowman behavioral genetics and Robert Plowman and a couple of million people and a couple of million people and a couple of million people from the bio bank can can explain from the bio bank can can explain from the bio bank can can explain otherwise? Yeah. Um, well, I think one otherwise? Yeah. Um, well, I think one otherwise? Yeah. Um, well, I think one is because I the work of Robert Plowman, is because I the work of Robert Plowman, is because I the work of Robert Plowman, this isn't a this isn't a conspiracy this isn't a this isn't a conspiracy this isn't a this isn't a conspiracy theory. I mean, it's admitted it's been theory. I mean, it's admitted it's been theory. I mean, it's admitted it's been admittedly swept under the rug in admittedly swept under the rug in admittedly swept under the rug in academic circles and and um clinical academic circles and and um clinical academic circles and and um clinical circles because it seems to really circles because it seems to really circles because it seems to really intimidate people that there there might intimidate people that there there might intimidate people that there there might be um like be um like be um like strategy and patterns to to what we have strategy and patterns to to what we have strategy and patterns to to what we have decided is a negative behavior at this decided is a negative behavior at this decided is a negative behavior at this point in our in our evolution, right? point in our in our evolution, right? point in our in our evolution, right? that that the ED that the um that the that that the ED that the um that the that that the ED that the um that the negative behavior could potentially come negative behavior could potentially come negative behavior could potentially come naturally or be ingrained naturally or be ingrained naturally or be ingrained um is terrifying for people to accept. um is terrifying for people to accept. um is terrifying for people to accept. So what they've done instead is created So what they've done instead is created So what they've done instead is created this idea that everything um is this idea that everything um is this idea that everything um is environmentally determined. So the environmentally determined. So the environmentally determined. So the reason why there's there's reason why there's there's reason why there's there's preference for that is if the preference for that is if the preference for that is if the environment created it, maybe the environment created it, maybe the environment created it, maybe the environment can stop it, prevents it or environment can stop it, prevents it or environment can stop it, prevents it or modify it. Well, look, I suppose this modify it. Well, look, I suppose this modify it. Well, look, I suppose this this is a debate around behavioral this is a debate around behavioral this is a debate around behavioral genetics overall, genetics overall, genetics overall, >> but >> but >> but Plman is the fifth most cited Plman is the fifth most cited Plman is the fifth most cited psychologist in the 20th century. psychologist in the 20th century. psychologist in the 20th century. That was a century that had That was a century that had That was a century that had Freud. That was a century that had Freud. That was a century that had Freud. That was a century that had Young. That was a century that had some Young. That was a century that had some Young. That was a century that had some of the biggest turning points in it. It of the biggest turning points in it. It of the biggest turning points in it. It invented the field of psychology as we invented the field of psychology as we invented the field of psychology as we know it today. And he's the fifth most know it today. And he's the fifth most know it today. And he's the fifth most cited. and the fact that the industry cited. and the fact that the industry cited. and the fact that the industry he's been on the show I think it was he's been on the show I think it was he's been on the show I think it was episode 320 something it was a long time episode 320 something it was a long time episode 320 something it was a long time ago now um ago now um ago now um >> the fact that behavioral genetics is so heretical heretical >> to talk to talk about it just >> to talk to talk about it just >> to talk to talk about it just blows my mind do you know Corey Clark blows my mind do you know Corey Clark blows my mind do you know Corey Clark familiar with her it's a evolutionary familiar with her it's a evolutionary familiar with her it's a evolutionary psychologist she did a great study she psychologist she did a great study she psychologist she did a great study she sent a study out to a survey out to sent a study out to a survey out to sent a study out to a survey out to every psychology professor in the United every psychology professor in the United every psychology professor in the United States at a higher education States at a higher education States at a higher education institution. Got them to fill in some institution. Got them to fill in some institution. Got them to fill in some anonymous questions asking about a anonymous questions asking about a anonymous questions asking about a variety of things. Getting a a cultural variety of things. Getting a a cultural variety of things. Getting a a cultural temperature, the topography of of what temperature, the topography of of what temperature, the topography of of what uh the psychology psychology professor uh the psychology psychology professor uh the psychology psychology professor world is like. The two most unspeakable world is like. The two most unspeakable world is like. The two most unspeakable this should be banned. People should not this should be banned. People should not this should be banned. People should not learn about it. the two learn about it. the two learn about it. the two spiciest subject areas that most spiciest subject areas that most spiciest subject areas that most professors were most likely to say they professors were most likely to say they professors were most likely to say they shouldn't be taught, evolutionary shouldn't be taught, evolutionary shouldn't be taught, evolutionary psychology and behavioral genetics. And psychology and behavioral genetics. And psychology and behavioral genetics. And I think it speaks exactly to what you I think it speaks exactly to what you I think it speaks exactly to what you were saying there that in an egalitarian were saying there that in an egalitarian were saying there that in an egalitarian world that's a meritocracy and also a world that's a meritocracy and also a world that's a meritocracy and also a capitalist competition, if the victors capitalist competition, if the victors capitalist competition, if the victors get to own their successes and the get to own their successes and the get to own their successes and the losers have to own their failures, losers have to own their failures, losers have to own their failures, anything that doesn't feel like your anything that doesn't feel like your anything that doesn't feel like your future is entirely in your hands future is entirely in your hands future is entirely in your hands >> is unbelievably disempowering because it >> is unbelievably disempowering because it >> is unbelievably disempowering because it makes it feel like your your uh the makes it feel like your your uh the makes it feel like your your uh the outcomes in your life are predestined outcomes in your life are predestined outcomes in your life are predestined before you were even born. As you said, before you were even born. As you said, before you were even born. As you said, this isn't deterministic. It's this isn't deterministic. It's this isn't deterministic. It's probabilistic. As Plowman says, it does probabilistic. As Plowman says, it does probabilistic. As Plowman says, it does not predetermine. It predisposes. not predetermine. It predisposes. not predetermine. It predisposes. But it is it is disempowering. It is But it is it is disempowering. It is But it is it is disempowering. It is disempowering to find. I mean, Chris disempowering to find. I mean, Chris disempowering to find. I mean, Chris Hemsworth did that that um documentary Hemsworth did that that um documentary Hemsworth did that that um documentary about his health and he found out that about his health and he found out that about his health and he found out that he's got a couple of relatively rare he's got a couple of relatively rare he's got a couple of relatively rare mutations that predispose him to mutations that predispose him to mutations that predispose him to Alzheimer's. But that's this is just raw Alzheimer's. But that's this is just raw Alzheimer's. But that's this is just raw biology and he's now taking supplements biology and he's now taking supplements biology and he's now taking supplements and adjusted his lifestyle and his diet and adjusted his lifestyle and his diet and adjusted his lifestyle and his diet and all the rest of it to try and and all the rest of it to try and and all the rest of it to try and compensate for this. compensate for this. compensate for this. >> But to find out that as a you know >> But to find out that as a you know >> But to find out that as a you know you've got your kid and if you were to you've got your kid and if you were to you've got your kid and if you were to have a child that had have a child that had have a child that had >> uh diabetes >> uh diabetes >> uh diabetes or autism, or autism, or autism, you're not looking necessarily for some you're not looking necessarily for some you're not looking necessarily for some sort of intervention to cure their sort of intervention to cure their sort of intervention to cure their autism. You're looking to manage it. autism. You're looking to manage it. autism. You're looking to manage it. because we we don't pathize. because we we don't pathize. because we we don't pathize. The pathization occurs more differently The pathization occurs more differently The pathization occurs more differently when we get into psychology than it does when we get into psychology than it does when we get into psychology than it does when we get into what feels a bit more when we get into what feels a bit more when we get into what feels a bit more like biology, even though biology is like biology, even though biology is like biology, even though biology is psychology for the most part. psychology for the most part. psychology for the most part. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> uh yeah, it's just I I I could talk >> uh yeah, it's just I I I could talk >> uh yeah, it's just I I I could talk about this all day. I think it's so I about this all day. I think it's so I about this all day. I think it's so I think it's so interesting, dude. think it's so interesting, dude. think it's so interesting, dude. the push back against evolutionary the push back against evolutionary the push back against evolutionary explanations that basically say explanations that basically say explanations that basically say you are being uh shunted forward by by you are being uh shunted forward by by you are being uh shunted forward by by forces that were uh came about long forces that were uh came about long forces that were uh came about long before you and are kind of outside of before you and are kind of outside of before you and are kind of outside of your agency or at the very least you're your agency or at the very least you're your agency or at the very least you're you're going to have to permanently you're going to have to permanently you're going to have to permanently fight against. Um that feels fight against. Um that feels fight against. Um that feels disempowering and behavioral genetics is disempowering and behavioral genetics is disempowering and behavioral genetics is that on steroids, right? It's it's it's that on steroids, right? It's it's it's that on steroids, right? It's it's it's that times times a thousand. You can't that times times a thousand. You can't that times times a thousand. You can't you can't change your genes. You can you can't change your genes. You can you can't change your genes. You can maybe turn them up and turn them down maybe turn them up and turn them down maybe turn them up and turn them down with some epigenetic stuff, but gene with some epigenetic stuff, but gene with some epigenetic stuff, but gene therapy as far as we know is is pretty therapy as far as we know is is pretty therapy as far as we know is is pretty nent. So yeah, it's it's it's an nent. So yeah, it's it's it's an nent. So yeah, it's it's it's an interesting area. interesting area. interesting area. >> Something that I love about what Plowman >> Something that I love about what Plowman >> Something that I love about what Plowman does though is he he he talks about how does though is he he he talks about how does though is he he he talks about how everything is just when we look at it everything is just when we look at it everything is just when we look at it from that perspective, everything is from that perspective, everything is from that perspective, everything is then just differences, right? Which I then just differences, right? Which I then just differences, right? Which I appreciate. I like to use the word appreciate. I like to use the word appreciate. I like to use the word disorder because I think once you cross disorder because I think once you cross disorder because I think once you cross a particular threshold of of harm and a particular threshold of of harm and a particular threshold of of harm and dysfunction, we we have to call it dysfunction, we we have to call it dysfunction, we we have to call it something different. I mean, we we can something different. I mean, we we can something different. I mean, we we can say it's like a huge difference. Um, but say it's like a huge difference. Um, but say it's like a huge difference. Um, but clinically, it makes more sense to say, clinically, it makes more sense to say, clinically, it makes more sense to say, okay, this is where we're operating okay, this is where we're operating okay, this is where we're operating outside of the bounds of what we can outside of the bounds of what we can outside of the bounds of what we can accept. And so, we have to call it accept. And so, we have to call it accept. And so, we have to call it something other than just, oh, this something other than just, oh, this something other than just, oh, this person's very unique and different. We person's very unique and different. We person's very unique and different. We we have to say this is problematic we have to say this is problematic we have to say this is problematic behavior based on the type of society behavior based on the type of society behavior based on the type of society we're trying to collectively create, we're trying to collectively create, we're trying to collectively create, right? Um I find I I don't find it right? Um I find I I don't find it right? Um I find I I don't find it surprising that those are the two uh surprising that those are the two uh surprising that those are the two uh subjects that are considered um you know subjects that are considered um you know subjects that are considered um you know to be the problematic ones. Um to be the problematic ones. Um to be the problematic ones. Um I I'm not sure why people are so I I'm not sure why people are so I I'm not sure why people are so intimidated by that. I I do know that intimidated by that. I I do know that intimidated by that. I I do know that like the problem is too is like Freud like the problem is too is like Freud like the problem is too is like Freud kind of commanded this ship of like kind of commanded this ship of like kind of commanded this ship of like having this um impenetrable untestable having this um impenetrable untestable having this um impenetrable untestable theory. like no one can ever really theory. like no one can ever really theory. like no one can ever really prove it wrong because it just might be prove it wrong because it just might be prove it wrong because it just might be that much more unconscious. that much more unconscious. that much more unconscious. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Never find it. And I think >> Never find it. And I think >> Never find it. And I think >> it's unconsciousness all the way down. >> it's unconsciousness all the way down. >> it's unconsciousness all the way down. >> Yeah. But that's not I mean that's not >> Yeah. But that's not I mean that's not >> Yeah. But that's not I mean that's not that's not science. You have to be able that's not science. You have to be able that's not science. You have to be able to test it. to test it. to test it. >> All right. Let's get into some of the >> All right. Let's get into some of the >> All right. Let's get into some of the different ways that people can present. different ways that people can present. different ways that people can present. So narcissism. Yeah. So narcissism. Yeah. So narcissism. Yeah. >> I I I see an endless number of videos >> I I I see an endless number of videos >> I I I see an endless number of videos online about how to know if you're in a online about how to know if you're in a online about how to know if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, how to relationship with a narcissist, how to relationship with a narcissist, how to escape a narcissist. escape a narcissist. escape a narcissist. When it comes to narcissism as a When it comes to narcissism as a When it comes to narcissism as a the motivating force behind it, is the motivating force behind it, is the motivating force behind it, is narcissism about is it really about low narcissism about is it really about low narcissism about is it really about low self-esteem or is it about something self-esteem or is it about something self-esteem or is it about something else? What's it about? else? What's it about? else? What's it about? >> No. Narcissism is excessive investment >> No. Narcissism is excessive investment >> No. Narcissism is excessive investment in one's image, the image that they in one's image, the image that they in one's image, the image that they prefer. It's excessive investment in prefer. It's excessive investment in prefer. It's excessive investment in that preferred image at the expense of that preferred image at the expense of that preferred image at the expense of any authentic self. So, it's not that any authentic self. So, it's not that any authentic self. So, it's not that they have low self-esteem in this void they have low self-esteem in this void they have low self-esteem in this void of shame. which is the most common idea. of shame. which is the most common idea. of shame. which is the most common idea. Um, I can direct you to behavioral Um, I can direct you to behavioral Um, I can direct you to behavioral geneticists and evolutionary geneticists and evolutionary geneticists and evolutionary psychologists that can blow that theory psychologists that can blow that theory psychologists that can blow that theory out of the water if you want. Uh, but out of the water if you want. Uh, but out of the water if you want. Uh, but it's not a shame based disorder. Um, it's not a shame based disorder. Um, it's not a shame based disorder. Um, it's excessive investment in one's it's excessive investment in one's it's excessive investment in one's preferred image at the expense of preferred image at the expense of preferred image at the expense of cultivating a true self. So yeah, they cultivating a true self. So yeah, they cultivating a true self. So yeah, they get hurt and wounded and offended and get hurt and wounded and offended and get hurt and wounded and offended and defensive and they get triggered and and defensive and they get triggered and and defensive and they get triggered and and they get injured because they haven't they get injured because they haven't they get injured because they haven't cultivated anything to receive a cultivated anything to receive a cultivated anything to receive a disagreement underneath that thin layer disagreement underneath that thin layer disagreement underneath that thin layer of reflection that's on the pond that of reflection that's on the pond that of reflection that's on the pond that narcissist is gazing at. There's nothing narcissist is gazing at. There's nothing narcissist is gazing at. There's nothing under there because nothing has been under there because nothing has been under there because nothing has been examined or cultivated. So, it's like examined or cultivated. So, it's like examined or cultivated. So, it's like they're emotionally thin skinned, they're emotionally thin skinned, they're emotionally thin skinned, but it's not because of shame. It's but it's not because of shame. It's but it's not because of shame. It's because they didn't put any emotional because they didn't put any emotional because they didn't put any emotional muscle underneath any of that. muscle underneath any of that. muscle underneath any of that. >> Um, but they prefer to be the way they >> Um, but they prefer to be the way they >> Um, but they prefer to be the way they are. I think this really bothers people. are. I think this really bothers people. are. I think this really bothers people. Why would anybody prefer to be someone Why would anybody prefer to be someone Why would anybody prefer to be someone who doesn't get along with anybody? who doesn't get along with anybody? who doesn't get along with anybody? They're entitled. They don't believe in They're entitled. They don't believe in They're entitled. They don't believe in equality. So in a way they expect not to equality. So in a way they expect not to equality. So in a way they expect not to get along with anybody because everybody get along with anybody because everybody get along with anybody because everybody has to accept that they are better than has to accept that they are better than has to accept that they are better than them in order for them to get along with them in order for them to get along with them in order for them to get along with everybody. Um everybody. Um everybody. Um somehow suddenly this this got morphed somehow suddenly this this got morphed somehow suddenly this this got morphed into this idea that it's all into this idea that it's all into this idea that it's all compensatory that it's all compensation compensatory that it's all compensation compensatory that it's all compensation for low self-esteem. Those are just for low self-esteem. Those are just for low self-esteem. Those are just theories. Um, based, by the way, on the theories. Um, based, by the way, on the theories. Um, based, by the way, on the reports of the narcissists telling reports of the narcissists telling reports of the narcissists telling professionals that professionals that professionals that >> and perhaps an unreliable self-witness, >> and perhaps an unreliable self-witness, >> and perhaps an unreliable self-witness, >> perhaps. >> perhaps. >> perhaps. >> Before we continue, I am a massive fan >> Before we continue, I am a massive fan >> Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but of reducing your alcohol intake, but of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, non-alcoholic brews taste historically, non-alcoholic brews taste historically, non-alcoholic brews taste like ass. You don't need to be doing like ass. You don't need to be doing like ass. 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Or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors full variety pack of four flavors full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door. Right now, shipped right to your door. Right now, shipped right to your door. Right now, you can get 15% off your first online you can get 15% off your first online you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the order by going to the link in the order by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom. Difference between vulnerable and Difference between vulnerable and grandiose narcissism. Does this show up? grandiose narcissism. Does this show up? grandiose narcissism. Does this show up? Because I I know these terms. I can Because I I know these terms. I can Because I I know these terms. I can pretend that I know what I'm talking pretend that I know what I'm talking pretend that I know what I'm talking about with narcissism, but is that about with narcissism, but is that about with narcissism, but is that or is that clinically or is that clinically or is that clinically validated? validated? validated? >> I'm sure you know exactly what they are. >> I'm sure you know exactly what they are. >> I'm sure you know exactly what they are. I a grandiose narcissist is somebody who I a grandiose narcissist is somebody who I a grandiose narcissist is somebody who um you see their grandiosity overtly, um you see their grandiosity overtly, um you see their grandiosity overtly, meaning they're not they're not meaning they're not they're not meaning they're not they're not concealing it. Vulnerable narcissism concealing it. Vulnerable narcissism concealing it. Vulnerable narcissism um depending on who you ask, one um depending on who you ask, one um depending on who you ask, one definition of vulnerable is they're definition of vulnerable is they're definition of vulnerable is they're concealing their vulnerability. So that concealing their vulnerability. So that concealing their vulnerability. So that a covert narcissist is someone who a covert narcissist is someone who a covert narcissist is someone who conceals their vulnerability. To me, a conceals their vulnerability. To me, a conceals their vulnerability. To me, a covert narcissist is somebody who covert narcissist is somebody who covert narcissist is somebody who covertly is grandiose. You know, they covertly is grandiose. You know, they covertly is grandiose. You know, they act like they're not, but they actually act like they're not, but they actually act like they're not, but they actually are. So it's are. So it's are. So it's >> So you're using you're using the term >> So you're using you're using the term >> So you're using you're using the term covert rather than vulnerable. Is that covert rather than vulnerable. Is that covert rather than vulnerable. Is that the more clinically accurate term? the more clinically accurate term? the more clinically accurate term? >> Covert and vulnerable narcissist are >> Covert and vulnerable narcissist are >> Covert and vulnerable narcissist are used interchangeably for a lot of people used interchangeably for a lot of people used interchangeably for a lot of people because um of the concealing of the because um of the concealing of the because um of the concealing of the vulnerability. vulnerability. vulnerability. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um an overt narcissist is somebody who an overt narcissist is somebody who an overt narcissist is somebody who doesn't hide the fact that they believe doesn't hide the fact that they believe doesn't hide the fact that they believe that they are entitled to special that they are entitled to special that they are entitled to special treatment. So you're going to see them a treatment. So you're going to see them a treatment. So you're going to see them a mile away. They know they're mile away. They know they're mile away. They know they're >> them. Do you look at them w as having >> them. Do you look at them w as having >> them. Do you look at them w as having different origin stories coming from different origin stories coming from different origin stories coming from different places, different motivations? different places, different motivations? different places, different motivations? >> No, I personally don't. I think that >> No, I personally don't. I think that >> No, I personally don't. I think that grandiosity is just being expressed grandiosity is just being expressed grandiosity is just being expressed differently in those two individuals. differently in those two individuals. differently in those two individuals. But the central feature of both of those But the central feature of both of those But the central feature of both of those individuals is still their inherent individuals is still their inherent individuals is still their inherent grandiosity. grandiosity. grandiosity. >> But their self-belief in that is >> But their self-belief in that is >> But their self-belief in that is different, right? That different, right? That different, right? That >> no, I would I would disagree with that >> no, I would I would disagree with that >> no, I would I would disagree with that too. I think their belief is that they too. I think their belief is that they too. I think their belief is that they truly have a sincere conviction that truly have a sincere conviction that truly have a sincere conviction that they're superior to others and entitled they're superior to others and entitled they're superior to others and entitled to special treatment. The that's when to special treatment. The that's when to special treatment. The that's when we're going to get into heterogeneity or we're going to get into heterogeneity or we're going to get into heterogeneity or the expression of that belief. It looks the expression of that belief. It looks the expression of that belief. It looks a lot different. a lot different. a lot different. >> Interesting. Uh so my understanding of >> Interesting. Uh so my understanding of >> Interesting. Uh so my understanding of vulnerable or covert narcissism was that vulnerable or covert narcissism was that vulnerable or covert narcissism was that the grandio narcissist genuinely the grandio narcissist genuinely the grandio narcissist genuinely believes I'm the best in the world and I believes I'm the best in the world and I believes I'm the best in the world and I believe that I'm the best in the world. believe that I'm the best in the world. believe that I'm the best in the world. The vulnerable narcissist would present The vulnerable narcissist would present The vulnerable narcissist would present I'm the best in the world to try and I'm the best in the world to try and I'm the best in the world to try and cover up the fact that I don't think I'm cover up the fact that I don't think I'm cover up the fact that I don't think I'm worth anything. worth anything. worth anything. >> They're the compensatory one who's >> They're the compensatory one who's >> They're the compensatory one who's secretly um suffering from all this secretly um suffering from all this secretly um suffering from all this hidden shame. Right. hidden shame. Right. hidden shame. Right. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I disagree. >> I disagree. >> I disagree. >> I think that the problem is they're not >> I think that the problem is they're not >> I think that the problem is they're not shameful enough. They're not they don't shameful enough. They're not they don't shameful enough. They're not they don't have enough shame to put on the brakes have enough shame to put on the brakes have enough shame to put on the brakes to stop mistreating people. there's no to stop mistreating people. there's no to stop mistreating people. there's no motivating factor in their operating motivating factor in their operating motivating factor in their operating system that stops that puts on the system that stops that puts on the system that stops that puts on the brakes because they're lacking in brakes because they're lacking in brakes because they're lacking in empathy and lacking in conscience. empathy and lacking in conscience. empathy and lacking in conscience. They've done recent studies too to show They've done recent studies too to show They've done recent studies too to show that um what we've historically referred that um what we've historically referred that um what we've historically referred to as the vulnerable to as the vulnerable to as the vulnerable expression or the vulnerable expression or the vulnerable expression or the vulnerable presentation of narcissism presentation of narcissism presentation of narcissism is 90% identical to borderline is 90% identical to borderline is 90% identical to borderline personality disorder personality disorder personality disorder >> in criterion criterion variables traits. >> in criterion criterion variables traits. >> in criterion criterion variables traits. Borderline personality disorder is Borderline personality disorder is Borderline personality disorder is another cluster B disorder that is often another cluster B disorder that is often another cluster B disorder that is often associated with um most people when they associated with um most people when they associated with um most people when they hear the term borderline personality hear the term borderline personality hear the term borderline personality they think of fear of abandonment, lots they think of fear of abandonment, lots they think of fear of abandonment, lots of suicidal gestures or suicidal of suicidal gestures or suicidal of suicidal gestures or suicidal attempts. Um there's this chronic attempts. Um there's this chronic attempts. Um there's this chronic feeling of emptiness um and these feeling of emptiness um and these feeling of emptiness um and these attempts panic panic and frantic attempts panic panic and frantic attempts panic panic and frantic attempts to um avoid abandonment. But attempts to um avoid abandonment. But attempts to um avoid abandonment. But what what actually is underneath a lot what what actually is underneath a lot what what actually is underneath a lot of that are if you look at the traits of that are if you look at the traits of that are if you look at the traits underneath the borderline personality underneath the borderline personality underneath the borderline personality are what we see how we see vulnerable are what we see how we see vulnerable are what we see how we see vulnerable narcissists um operating in narcissists um operating in narcissists um operating in relationships and in in general. There's relationships and in in general. There's relationships and in in general. There's a lot of um neurotic traits, negative a lot of um neurotic traits, negative a lot of um neurotic traits, negative affectivity. And so there's this affectivity. And so there's this affectivity. And so there's this impulsivity, there's a lashing out um impulsivity, there's a lashing out um impulsivity, there's a lashing out um there's a there's a there's a pathological levels of anxiety, right? pathological levels of anxiety, right? pathological levels of anxiety, right? Is that the same in the grandiose? Is that the same in the grandiose? Is that the same in the grandiose? >> Um, well, no, it's not the same in the >> Um, well, no, it's not the same in the >> Um, well, no, it's not the same in the sense that they're not they're not sense that they're not they're not sense that they're not they're not experiencing themselves that way. Um, experiencing themselves that way. Um, experiencing themselves that way. Um, but you know, there's just like we have um you know, there's just like we have um we have people who look narcissistic we have people who look narcissistic we have people who look narcissistic very externally, we there are also very externally, we there are also very externally, we there are also people who are narcissistic internal. people who are narcissistic internal. people who are narcissistic internal. >> How come? Okay. So, one of the common >> How come? Okay. So, one of the common >> How come? Okay. So, one of the common patterns that I see people talk about patterns that I see people talk about patterns that I see people talk about online is uh narcissists pulling online is uh narcissists pulling online is uh narcissists pulling somebody in close and then suddenly somebody in close and then suddenly somebody in close and then suddenly pushing them away. pushing them away. pushing them away. >> Why why why does that seem to be a a >> Why why why does that seem to be a a >> Why why why does that seem to be a a pattern? pattern? pattern? >> Well, because they narcissists live in a >> Well, because they narcissists live in a >> Well, because they narcissists live in a dichomous world where something is dichomous world where something is dichomous world where something is either everything they want or nothing either everything they want or nothing either everything they want or nothing they want. They don't have the gray area they want. They don't have the gray area they want. They don't have the gray area break pedal pause limitation break pedal pause limitation break pedal pause limitation uh mechanism in their operating system. uh mechanism in their operating system. uh mechanism in their operating system. They don't have the function to use that They don't have the function to use that They don't have the function to use that properly. So, somebody's either properly. So, somebody's either properly. So, somebody's either idealized, which means they're they're idealized, which means they're they're idealized, which means they're they're everything that somebody that they could everything that somebody that they could everything that somebody that they could have ever wanted, or they're devalued have ever wanted, or they're devalued have ever wanted, or they're devalued and then discarded, which means they're and then discarded, which means they're and then discarded, which means they're they don't they're not ideal, so they're they don't they're not ideal, so they're they don't they're not ideal, so they're they're useless. Narcissists see human they're useless. Narcissists see human they're useless. Narcissists see human beings and relationships as far as beings and relationships as far as beings and relationships as far as utility, not val worth. They don't look utility, not val worth. They don't look utility, not val worth. They don't look at people how much they're worth. They at people how much they're worth. They at people how much they're worth. They look at how useful they are. look at how useful they are. look at how useful they are. >> What about psychopaths? What's what >> What about psychopaths? What's what >> What about psychopaths? What's what makes So I'm trying to I'm trying to makes So I'm trying to I'm trying to makes So I'm trying to I'm trying to find what the acceptable level of find what the acceptable level of find what the acceptable level of something is and then turn it up to what something is and then turn it up to what something is and then turn it up to what the dysfunction is. So what makes a a the dysfunction is. So what makes a a the dysfunction is. So what makes a a psychopath's harm psychopath's harm psychopath's harm >> different to somebody who's just losing >> different to somebody who's just losing >> different to somebody who's just losing their temper? their temper? their temper? >> Excellent. >> Excellent. >> Excellent. >> Everybody's lost their temper, >> Everybody's lost their temper, >> Everybody's lost their temper, >> right? And that's a reaction and that's >> right? And that's a reaction and that's >> right? And that's a reaction and that's a defense and that's um you know part of a defense and that's um you know part of a defense and that's um you know part of being human. I would say to being human. I would say to being human. I would say to differentiate between these two that differentiate between these two that differentiate between these two that we're talking about with narcissism, we we're talking about with narcissism, we we're talking about with narcissism, we see grandiosity at the expense of see grandiosity at the expense of see grandiosity at the expense of equality. And that's the that's the equality. And that's the that's the equality. And that's the that's the engine. Grandiosity at the expense of engine. Grandiosity at the expense of engine. Grandiosity at the expense of equality. equality. equality. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> With psychopaths, what we see is >> With psychopaths, what we see is >> With psychopaths, what we see is exploitation of others um at the expense exploitation of others um at the expense exploitation of others um at the expense of any sort of honor. They don't honor of any sort of honor. They don't honor of any sort of honor. They don't honor humans. humans. humans. They don't have any value for human life They don't have any value for human life They don't have any value for human life whatsoever. They don't see another whatsoever. They don't see another whatsoever. They don't see another person and think this person should person and think this person should person and think this person should >> um be alive or has the right to be >> um be alive or has the right to be >> um be alive or has the right to be alive. What they think is um I will alive. What they think is um I will alive. What they think is um I will exploit this person. It's a dog eat dog exploit this person. It's a dog eat dog exploit this person. It's a dog eat dog world. If something bad befalls them, world. If something bad befalls them, world. If something bad befalls them, they should have known better. That's they should have known better. That's they should have known better. That's that's kind of a psychopath's mentality. that's kind of a psychopath's mentality. that's kind of a psychopath's mentality. Um, Um, Um, psychopaths uh, psychopaths uh, psychopaths uh, for the most part have more of a active for the most part have more of a active for the most part have more of a active grandiosity. grandiosity. grandiosity. So if they if you do cross them, they're So if they if you do cross them, they're So if they if you do cross them, they're going to show you like they're going to going to show you like they're going to going to show you like they're going to make you pay. make you pay. make you pay. Some narcissists have what's called a Some narcissists have what's called a Some narcissists have what's called a passive grandiosity where they don't passive grandiosity where they don't passive grandiosity where they don't care enough about you to make you pay. care enough about you to make you pay. care enough about you to make you pay. You should have just known they were You should have just known they were You should have just known they were better than you and so they're not going better than you and so they're not going better than you and so they're not going to bother themselves with you. to bother themselves with you. to bother themselves with you. >> Oh, that's interesting. So I imagine >> Oh, that's interesting. So I imagine >> Oh, that's interesting. So I imagine this means that in some situations this means that in some situations this means that in some situations psychopaths are more dangerous uh psychopaths are more dangerous uh psychopaths are more dangerous uh retributively. Uh but there must be some retributively. Uh but there must be some retributively. Uh but there must be some situations where narcissists or certain situations where narcissists or certain situations where narcissists or certain types of narcissists might be more types of narcissists might be more types of narcissists might be more dangerous. dangerous. dangerous. >> So you venture into the malignant >> So you venture into the malignant >> So you venture into the malignant narcissist is when you're starting to narcissist is when you're starting to narcissist is when you're starting to move more into the exploitation and move more into the exploitation and move more into the exploitation and conning that you see common in conning that you see common in conning that you see common in psychopathy or antisocials. So there is psychopathy or antisocials. So there is psychopathy or antisocials. So there is like a sort of a bridge uh to that where like a sort of a bridge uh to that where like a sort of a bridge uh to that where if the malignant narcissist is kind of if the malignant narcissist is kind of if the malignant narcissist is kind of the bridge between NPD and psychopathy the bridge between NPD and psychopathy the bridge between NPD and psychopathy again not across the board but just to again not across the board but just to again not across the board but just to give a visual that yes there is some give a visual that yes there is some give a visual that yes there is some there is a severe degree of narcissism there is a severe degree of narcissism there is a severe degree of narcissism that and then that's what we would refer that and then that's what we would refer that and then that's what we would refer to more as like the um the dark triad to more as like the um the dark triad to more as like the um the dark triad narcissism where you have psychopathy narcissism where you have psychopathy narcissism where you have psychopathy mchavelianism and narcissism mchavelianism and narcissism mchavelianism and narcissism Um, the dark triad thing is kind of Um, the dark triad thing is kind of Um, the dark triad thing is kind of fascinating. It's between Peterson and a fascinating. It's between Peterson and a fascinating. It's between Peterson and a bunch of other people that do podcasts. bunch of other people that do podcasts. bunch of other people that do podcasts. It's become like the hot new goal in It's become like the hot new goal in It's become like the hot new goal in school that everybody wants to talk school that everybody wants to talk school that everybody wants to talk about. Now, the dark tetrad, right? about. Now, the dark tetrad, right? about. Now, the dark tetrad, right? What's that? What's What's that one? What's that? What's What's that one? What's that? What's What's that one? That's That's That's >> what's that one? Sadism. >> what's that one? Sadism. >> what's that one? Sadism. >> Is that one? >> Is that one? >> Is that one? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is that That's the fourth one. when you >> Is that That's the fourth one. when you >> Is that That's the fourth one. when you go for the when you add another. Anyway, go for the when you add another. Anyway, go for the when you add another. Anyway, uh uh uh >> how >> how >> how how common is it for somebody who has how common is it for somebody who has how common is it for somebody who has got narcissism to also have psychopathy got narcissism to also have psychopathy got narcissism to also have psychopathy to also have Machavelianism to also have to also have Machavelianism to also have to also have Machavelianism to also have sadism? sadism? sadism? >> Good question. >> Good question. >> Good question. >> Um not all narcissists and psychopaths >> Um not all narcissists and psychopaths >> Um not all narcissists and psychopaths are mchavelian. are mchavelian. are mchavelian. Okay. Um all psychopaths Okay. Um all psychopaths Okay. Um all psychopaths are narcissists. are narcissists. are narcissists. All psychopaths are pathologically All psychopaths are pathologically All psychopaths are pathologically narcissistic. narcissistic. narcissistic. Not all narcissists are psychopaths. Not all narcissists are psychopaths. Not all narcissists are psychopaths. >> Okay. Necessary but not sufficient. >> Okay. Necessary but not sufficient. >> Okay. Necessary but not sufficient. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And then Mchavelian And then Mchavelian And then Mchavelian um I would say they're psychopathic, um I would say they're psychopathic, um I would say they're psychopathic, narcissistic. narcissistic. narcissistic. Um Um Um so they're both. So I mean they're as so they're both. So I mean they're as so they're both. So I mean they're as far as not not all narcissists are far as not not all narcissists are far as not not all narcissists are Mchavelian. Not all narcissists are Mchavelian. Not all narcissists are Mchavelian. Not all narcissists are psychopathic. All Machavelians and psychopathic. All Machavelians and psychopathic. All Machavelians and psychopaths are narcissistic. psychopaths are narcissistic. psychopaths are narcissistic. >> Are all Machavelian psychopaths? >> Are all Machavelian psychopaths? >> Are all Machavelian psychopaths? >> Good question. Um, I guess if they're >> Good question. Um, I guess if they're >> Good question. Um, I guess if they're practicing, practicing, practicing, I guess you could be Mchavelian in I guess you could be Mchavelian in I guess you could be Mchavelian in theory, but you wouldn't ever do the theory, but you wouldn't ever do the theory, but you wouldn't ever do the things. things. things. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about sadism? I I imagine it must be about sadism? I I imagine it must be about sadism? I I imagine it must be difficult to be a sadist and not be a difficult to be a sadist and not be a difficult to be a sadist and not be a psychopath. psychopath. psychopath. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, sadism is all about >> Yeah. Well, I mean, sadism is all about >> Yeah. Well, I mean, sadism is all about deriving pleasure from the harm you deriving pleasure from the harm you deriving pleasure from the harm you inflict on others or the harm that inflict on others or the harm that inflict on others or the harm that others are experiencing that you just others are experiencing that you just others are experiencing that you just witness. You could experience pleasure witness. You could experience pleasure witness. You could experience pleasure from the pain they're deriving. Um, from the pain they're deriving. Um, from the pain they're deriving. Um, so, but again, you know, not all so, but again, you know, not all so, but again, you know, not all narcissists are sadistic. You could you narcissists are sadistic. You could you narcissists are sadistic. You could you could have a could have a could have a >> narcissist. Okay. So, it it seems to me >> narcissist. Okay. So, it it seems to me >> narcissist. Okay. So, it it seems to me like narcissism is kind of like narcissism is kind of like narcissism is kind of I don't it's the big it's the front end I don't it's the big it's the front end I don't it's the big it's the front end of the funnel. It's the front door to of the funnel. It's the front door to of the funnel. It's the front door to the house. It's the the um the white the house. It's the the um the white the house. It's the the um the white belt. It's the white belt of much of belt. It's the white belt of much of belt. It's the white belt of much of what we're talking about here that what we're talking about here that what we're talking about here that >> well to a degree. Yes. Because in order >> well to a degree. Yes. Because in order >> well to a degree. Yes. Because in order for you to graduate to these other, you for you to graduate to these other, you for you to graduate to these other, you know, whatever you want to call just know, whatever you want to call just know, whatever you want to call just antisocial, not pro-social, if you want antisocial, not pro-social, if you want antisocial, not pro-social, if you want to graduate to, you know, a way of being to graduate to, you know, a way of being to graduate to, you know, a way of being where you're not interested in where you're not interested in where you're not interested in pro-social emotions or behaviors at all, pro-social emotions or behaviors at all, pro-social emotions or behaviors at all, you could start with narcissism because you could start with narcissism because you could start with narcissism because narcissism is something that primarily narcissism is something that primarily narcissism is something that primarily we're supposed to outgrow when we we're supposed to outgrow when we we're supposed to outgrow when we realize other people exist. Um, not realize other people exist. Um, not realize other people exist. Um, not relationships aren't symbiotic. you relationships aren't symbiotic. you relationships aren't symbiotic. you know, there there's others who have a know, there there's others who have a know, there there's others who have a subjectivity to them. Once you discover subjectivity to them. Once you discover subjectivity to them. Once you discover that in life, and that usually happens that in life, and that usually happens that in life, and that usually happens very early, someone says no to you. Um, very early, someone says no to you. Um, very early, someone says no to you. Um, once you discover that someone else has once you discover that someone else has once you discover that someone else has autonomy and subjectivity, your autonomy and subjectivity, your autonomy and subjectivity, your narcissism is supposed to be challenged, narcissism is supposed to be challenged, narcissism is supposed to be challenged, and you're supposed to start trying to and you're supposed to start trying to and you're supposed to start trying to find ways to outgrow it in favor of find ways to outgrow it in favor of find ways to outgrow it in favor of equality. Right. equality. Right. equality. Right. >> Right. So, you're saying that all all >> Right. So, you're saying that all all >> Right. So, you're saying that all all 2-year-olds are narcissists in in some 2-year-olds are narcissists in in some 2-year-olds are narcissists in in some >> I think all 2-year-olds are >> I think all 2-year-olds are >> I think all 2-year-olds are self-centered because they don't have self-centered because they don't have self-centered because they don't have the brainwiring to be like altruistic the brainwiring to be like altruistic the brainwiring to be like altruistic cuz no one no one can explain it to them cuz no one no one can explain it to them cuz no one no one can explain it to them in a 2-year-old language that they don't in a 2-year-old language that they don't in a 2-year-old language that they don't understand. understand. understand. >> I I'm hungry. I don't care that people >> I I'm hungry. I don't care that people >> I I'm hungry. I don't care that people are tired. are tired. are tired. >> I'm hungry. >> I'm hungry. >> I'm hungry. >> And after a while, you realize I'm >> And after a while, you realize I'm >> And after a while, you realize I'm hungry, but mom and dad are busy at the hungry, but mom and dad are busy at the hungry, but mom and dad are busy at the moment, so maybe I'll delay this. But moment, so maybe I'll delay this. But moment, so maybe I'll delay this. But with the narcissism that that lesson with the narcissism that that lesson with the narcissism that that lesson kind of never really gets learned. kind of never really gets learned. kind of never really gets learned. >> But even that hunger is not um pathologically narcissistic pathologically narcissistic because because because >> Yeah. Because you don't because because >> Yeah. Because you don't because because >> Yeah. Because you don't because because >> does that baby have the capacity to >> does that baby have the capacity to >> does that baby have the capacity to learn the lesson like that you just learn the lesson like that you just learn the lesson like that you just described that okay well it's not going described that okay well it's not going described that okay well it's not going to happen every time on command or on to happen every time on command or on to happen every time on command or on demand? You're going to have to wait a demand? You're going to have to wait a demand? You're going to have to wait a little bit, cry a little bit. you're little bit, cry a little bit. you're little bit, cry a little bit. you're going to have to be a little going to have to be a little going to have to be a little uncomfortable in that diaper until human uncomfortable in that diaper until human uncomfortable in that diaper until human mom can come over and be human with you. mom can come over and be human with you. mom can come over and be human with you. Uh, now a a pathological narcissist or Uh, now a a pathological narcissist or Uh, now a a pathological narcissist or somebody that I would say has trait somebody that I would say has trait somebody that I would say has trait inherent trait narcissism, they'll never inherent trait narcissism, they'll never inherent trait narcissism, they'll never learn that lesson from mom. Oh, mom's learn that lesson from mom. Oh, mom's learn that lesson from mom. Oh, mom's too tired. She's got stuff to do before too tired. She's got stuff to do before too tired. She's got stuff to do before she comes here. They can't for the life she comes here. They can't for the life she comes here. They can't for the life of them figure out why the diaper isn't of them figure out why the diaper isn't of them figure out why the diaper isn't changed like that. And then they hold changed like that. And then they hold changed like that. And then they hold resentment and then they punish SM for resentment and then they punish SM for resentment and then they punish SM for it. and they feel entitled to do that it. and they feel entitled to do that it. and they feel entitled to do that and then they can't for the life of them and then they can't for the life of them and then they can't for the life of them figure out why somebody would ever have figure out why somebody would ever have figure out why somebody would ever have a problem with them pushing mom for a problem with them pushing mom for a problem with them pushing mom for that. That's the problematic narcissism that. That's the problematic narcissism that. That's the problematic narcissism that is a complete to me it's a that is a complete to me it's a that is a complete to me it's a completely different trajectory than the completely different trajectory than the completely different trajectory than the primary narcissism that we all outgrow primary narcissism that we all outgrow primary narcissism that we all outgrow when we see that other people exist. when we see that other people exist. when we see that other people exist. There's something start There's something start There's something start >> of all of the different traits here. >> of all of the different traits here. >> of all of the different traits here. Which is the hardest to treat or change? Which is the hardest to treat or change? Which is the hardest to treat or change? Which is the hardest to have an Which is the hardest to have an Which is the hardest to have an intervention on? And is it psychopathy? intervention on? And is it psychopathy? intervention on? And is it psychopathy? Is that the hardest to to try and Is that the hardest to to try and Is that the hardest to to try and adjust? adjust? adjust? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, well, there is no known cure or well, there is no known cure or well, there is no known cure or successful treatment for psychopathy. successful treatment for psychopathy. successful treatment for psychopathy. They don't they can you contain and They don't they can you contain and They don't they can you contain and manage psychopathy. You don't treat it. manage psychopathy. You don't treat it. manage psychopathy. You don't treat it. There's no treatment for it. Um, they There's no treatment for it. Um, they There's no treatment for it. Um, they haven't figured something else out yet haven't figured something else out yet haven't figured something else out yet that can actually cultivate change in that can actually cultivate change in that can actually cultivate change in the personality of a psychopath. Even an the personality of a psychopath. Even an the personality of a psychopath. Even an incarcerated psychopath, they don't incarcerated psychopath, they don't incarcerated psychopath, they don't think differently, they just behave think differently, they just behave think differently, they just behave differently because they're confined. differently because they're confined. differently because they're confined. So, at this point in history, antisocial So, at this point in history, antisocial So, at this point in history, antisocial personality, psychopathy, there isn't a personality, psychopathy, there isn't a personality, psychopathy, there isn't a a an effective treatment other than some a an effective treatment other than some a an effective treatment other than some behavioral containment and management. behavioral containment and management. behavioral containment and management. um um um the so that would be the hardest one to the so that would be the hardest one to the so that would be the hardest one to treat to to treat or to you know but I treat to to treat or to you know but I treat to to treat or to you know but I would say that um just in general not would say that um just in general not would say that um just in general not clinically but in general life somebody clinically but in general life somebody clinically but in general life somebody who really doesn't understand the who really doesn't understand the who really doesn't understand the concept of equality I'd say that's the concept of equality I'd say that's the concept of equality I'd say that's the hardest thing to overcome. hardest thing to overcome. hardest thing to overcome. So grandiosity to me, practically So grandiosity to me, practically So grandiosity to me, practically speaking, would be the most difficult speaking, would be the most difficult speaking, would be the most difficult trait to deal with because this person trait to deal with because this person trait to deal with because this person seriously is convinced that you should seriously is convinced that you should seriously is convinced that you should be treating them differently than they be treating them differently than they be treating them differently than they should be treating you because they are should be treating you because they are should be treating you because they are worth more and they and you need to find worth more and they and you need to find worth more and they and you need to find a way to come to terms with that. That a way to come to terms with that. That a way to come to terms with that. That to me is the most challenging one to me is the most challenging one to me is the most challenging one >> because the the sort of presence of it >> because the the sort of presence of it >> because the the sort of presence of it precludes the fixing of it. By nature, precludes the fixing of it. By nature, precludes the fixing of it. By nature, you would have to accept that you're you would have to accept that you're you would have to accept that you're less than to less than to less than to >> in order in order to improve. I'm >> in order in order to improve. I'm >> in order in order to improve. I'm perfect as I am. perfect as I am. perfect as I am. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's kind of like being >> Yeah. It's it's kind of like being >> Yeah. It's it's kind of like being immune, immune, immune, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> in some way to to what the what the >> in some way to to what the what the >> in some way to to what the what the treatment would be like a a treatment would be like a a treatment would be like a a therapy resistant bacteria or something, therapy resistant bacteria or something, therapy resistant bacteria or something, >> right? >> right? >> right? Which those exist. Which those exist. Which those exist. So I think they exist in human So I think they exist in human So I think they exist in human personality, too. There's a there's a personality, too. There's a there's a personality, too. There's a there's a resistant personality. There's a resistant personality. There's a resistant personality. There's a personality that's resistant because personality that's resistant because personality that's resistant because they don't see any benefit from they don't see any benefit from they don't see any benefit from changing. They like the way they are. changing. They like the way they are. changing. They like the way they are. They're just waiting for everyone to They're just waiting for everyone to They're just waiting for everyone to accept them. We'll get back to talking accept them. We'll get back to talking accept them. We'll get back to talking in just one second. But first, if you in just one second. But first, if you in just one second. But first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your have been feeling a bit sluggish, your have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the testosterone levels might be the testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your problem. They play a huge role in your problem. 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All right. talking about how this shows All right. talking about how this shows up on the other side of the fence on the up on the other side of the fence on the up on the other side of the fence on the the side of the side of the side of >> the recipient, the interlocutor with >> the recipient, the interlocutor with >> the recipient, the interlocutor with with the person with the particular with the person with the particular with the person with the particular disorder. What are the main uh tools of disorder. What are the main uh tools of disorder. What are the main uh tools of control? What are the big levers that control? What are the big levers that control? What are the big levers that these people push and pull and the dials these people push and pull and the dials these people push and pull and the dials that they turn in order to that they turn in order to that they turn in order to >> uh enact change in the other person? The >> uh enact change in the other person? The >> uh enact change in the other person? The first thing that they typically do is first thing that they typically do is first thing that they typically do is they they either naturally or they they they either naturally or they they they either naturally or they become highly skilled at mimicking the become highly skilled at mimicking the become highly skilled at mimicking the pro-social emotions that most human pro-social emotions that most human pro-social emotions that most human beings think everybody possesses and beings think everybody possesses and beings think everybody possesses and operates under naturally. So what that operates under naturally. So what that operates under naturally. So what that means is like when you meet someone and means is like when you meet someone and means is like when you meet someone and they are friendly to you, you don't they are friendly to you, you don't they are friendly to you, you don't think to yourself, I wonder if they're think to yourself, I wonder if they're think to yourself, I wonder if they're being friendly to manipulate me. What being friendly to manipulate me. What being friendly to manipulate me. What you think is that person's friendly. you think is that person's friendly. you think is that person's friendly. Mhm. And so they mimic that. Mhm. And so they mimic that. Mhm. And so they mimic that. They mimic the typical um They mimic the typical um They mimic the typical um uh uh uh cues that would indicate that they're a cues that would indicate that they're a cues that would indicate that they're a human. They mimic them and they do it human. They mimic them and they do it human. They mimic them and they do it very well so that you let your guard very well so that you let your guard very well so that you let your guard down and they do it long enough for you down and they do it long enough for you down and they do it long enough for you to completely to completely to completely give up on the possibility that it's give up on the possibility that it's give up on the possibility that it's insincere. They do that. They do that insincere. They do that. They do that insincere. They do that. They do that long enough. And we call that the long enough. And we call that the long enough. And we call that the seduction phase or the lovebombing seduction phase or the lovebombing seduction phase or the lovebombing phase. They are an ideal partner. They phase. They are an ideal partner. They phase. They are an ideal partner. They have the same trauma you have, the same have the same trauma you have, the same have the same trauma you have, the same interests you have, the same lifestyle interests you have, the same lifestyle interests you have, the same lifestyle and life goals as you have. They're and life goals as you have. They're and life goals as you have. They're practically getting they're reflecting practically getting they're reflecting practically getting they're reflecting you back to yourself so that you'll give you back to yourself so that you'll give you back to yourself so that you'll give them the time of day. Um, that's the them the time of day. Um, that's the them the time of day. Um, that's the first thing to look out for, first thing to look out for, first thing to look out for, you know, because the moment you see you know, because the moment you see you know, because the moment you see that slip or there's an inconsistency or that slip or there's an inconsistency or that slip or there's an inconsistency or contradiction is when you you you can't contradiction is when you you you can't contradiction is when you you you can't just take it as, oh, maybe they're just take it as, oh, maybe they're just take it as, oh, maybe they're having a bad day. You have to start having a bad day. You have to start having a bad day. You have to start doing sadly, you have to start doing doing sadly, you have to start doing doing sadly, you have to start doing this skeptical scientific investigation, this skeptical scientific investigation, this skeptical scientific investigation, you know, on that behavior you know, on that behavior you know, on that behavior uh uh uh to see if there's any convergence, to to see if there's any convergence, to to see if there's any convergence, to see if this is something that could see if this is something that could see if this is something that could potentially result in a pattern or a potentially result in a pattern or a potentially result in a pattern or a strategy, you know. Okay. So that's first step. They um Okay. So that's first step. They um >> LAP as a normal human. >> LAP as a normal human. >> LAP as a normal human. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Emotions are >> Emotions are >> Emotions are >> that's that's almost always the f >> that's that's almost always the f >> that's that's almost always the f because presumably if you steamed in because presumably if you steamed in because presumably if you steamed in with psychopathic manipulative BPD with psychopathic manipulative BPD with psychopathic manipulative BPD behavior before somebody is invested in behavior before somebody is invested in behavior before somebody is invested in you the you know the the bad first date. you the you know the the bad first date. you the you know the the bad first date. >> Yeah. Nobody sticks because that was a >> Yeah. Nobody sticks because that was a >> Yeah. Nobody sticks because that was a bit bit bit >> whereas a bad >> whereas a bad >> whereas a bad month anniversary you're like ah I can month anniversary you're like ah I can month anniversary you're like ah I can give them a little bit more tolerance give them a little bit more tolerance give them a little bit more tolerance here. So that that kind of um here. So that that kind of um here. So that that kind of um >> we need to invest in people before we >> we need to invest in people before we >> we need to invest in people before we can accommodate them. can accommodate them. can accommodate them. >> That that is that is kind of the >> That that is that is kind of the >> That that is that is kind of the >> very well said. You need to invest >> very well said. You need to invest >> very well said. You need to invest >> yeah you need to invest in them before >> yeah you need to invest in them before >> yeah you need to invest in them before you just accept them at face value. you just accept them at face value. you just accept them at face value. Cool. Okay. What next? Cool. Okay. What next? Cool. Okay. What next? >> Okay. So, when there's a slip that we >> Okay. So, when there's a slip that we >> Okay. So, when there's a slip that we typically in hindsight call a red flag, typically in hindsight call a red flag, typically in hindsight call a red flag, but as it's happening, we have but as it's happening, we have but as it's happening, we have confirmation bias and we go, "No, it's confirmation bias and we go, "No, it's confirmation bias and we go, "No, it's not that bad." It's just they're just not that bad." It's just they're just not that bad." It's just they're just human. You need when when there's a human. You need when when there's a human. You need when when there's a slip. So, when the mask slips, when slip. So, when the mask slips, when slip. So, when the mask slips, when there's something that's blatantly there's something that's blatantly there's something that's blatantly uh in contrast to their pro-social uh in contrast to their pro-social uh in contrast to their pro-social presentation that they gave you on the presentation that they gave you on the presentation that they gave you on the first or second or third date where it first or second or third date where it first or second or third date where it was flawless and they're the person of was flawless and they're the person of was flawless and they're the person of your dreams, the moment there's your dreams, the moment there's your dreams, the moment there's something that's an a contradiction or something that's an a contradiction or something that's an a contradiction or an inconsistency, an inconsistency, an inconsistency, no matter how benign no matter how benign no matter how benign or incidental it seems, you have to take or incidental it seems, you have to take or incidental it seems, you have to take it very seriously. And you need to start it very seriously. And you need to start it very seriously. And you need to start developing um this idea in your head developing um this idea in your head developing um this idea in your head that you're going to see you're going to that you're going to see you're going to that you're going to see you're going to repeat this investigation to see if a repeat this investigation to see if a repeat this investigation to see if a pattern converges, right? If it's a pattern converges, right? If it's a pattern converges, right? If it's a one-off, if it's an isolated incident, one-off, if it's an isolated incident, one-off, if it's an isolated incident, then you know, and stay reasonably then you know, and stay reasonably then you know, and stay reasonably alert, but not hypervigilant, just okay, alert, but not hypervigilant, just okay, alert, but not hypervigilant, just okay, I note it. But this is where people go I note it. But this is where people go I note it. But this is where people go wrong. We naturally wrong. We naturally wrong. We naturally um are not neutral information um are not neutral information um are not neutral information processors or not. processors or not. processors or not. So, we're we're biased to information is So, we're we're biased to information is So, we're we're biased to information is my point. So, if you want a relationship my point. So, if you want a relationship my point. So, if you want a relationship to work because you really like that to work because you really like that to work because you really like that person on the first date and you really person on the first date and you really person on the first date and you really thought they were cute and you really thought they were cute and you really thought they were cute and you really like that they live, you know, close to like that they live, you know, close to like that they live, you know, close to you. If they slip up the you're going to you. If they slip up the you're going to you. If they slip up the you're going to use the prior information that you know use the prior information that you know use the prior information that you know about them to justify why you should about them to justify why you should about them to justify why you should still be with them. You're humans don't still be with them. You're humans don't still be with them. You're humans don't justify why they should not be with justify why they should not be with justify why they should not be with someone. Typically, someone. Typically, someone. Typically, that's part of kinship. That's part of that's part of kinship. That's part of that's part of kinship. That's part of evolution. That's part of, you know, evolution. That's part of, you know, evolution. That's part of, you know, loss avoidance, right? So, the first loss avoidance, right? So, the first loss avoidance, right? So, the first time there's a red flag, you have to be time there's a red flag, you have to be time there's a red flag, you have to be counterintuitively counterintuitively counterintuitively like attuned to it cuz it's not going to like attuned to it cuz it's not going to like attuned to it cuz it's not going to come naturally for you to investigate come naturally for you to investigate come naturally for you to investigate it. What's going to come naturally is it. What's going to come naturally is it. What's going to come naturally is for you to erase it and forget about it. for you to erase it and forget about it. for you to erase it and forget about it. >> That's the first that's the second thing >> That's the first that's the second thing >> That's the first that's the second thing you do is the moment there's an issue you do is the moment there's an issue you do is the moment there's an issue that you could potentially test for, that you could potentially test for, that you could potentially test for, you need to investigate it. Don't don't you need to investigate it. Don't don't you need to investigate it. Don't don't resolve the dissonance by saying, "Oh, resolve the dissonance by saying, "Oh, resolve the dissonance by saying, "Oh, well, there's more good than bad." That well, there's more good than bad." That well, there's more good than bad." That would be the second step. would be the second step. would be the second step. >> It seems like attention, like where >> It seems like attention, like where >> It seems like attention, like where attention is being drawn and where it's attention is being drawn and where it's attention is being drawn and where it's being put is is a really important tool being put is is a really important tool being put is is a really important tool of of control here. Is that right? of of control here. Is that right? of of control here. Is that right? >> Absolutely. Well, cuz just think about >> Absolutely. Well, cuz just think about >> Absolutely. Well, cuz just think about how you've done your past relationships. how you've done your past relationships. how you've done your past relationships. You don't think you should have to add You don't think you should have to add You don't think you should have to add this step of analysis. You just think this step of analysis. You just think this step of analysis. You just think that felt good. That was cool. Oh, they that felt good. That was cool. Oh, they that felt good. That was cool. Oh, they showed up again a second time. That felt showed up again a second time. That felt showed up again a second time. That felt good. That was cool. I might be falling good. That was cool. I might be falling good. That was cool. I might be falling in love here. Or this person's a really in love here. Or this person's a really in love here. Or this person's a really good friend. They're really generous good friend. They're really generous good friend. They're really generous twice now. We have to accept the sad twice now. We have to accept the sad twice now. We have to accept the sad reality that people know and bank on you reality that people know and bank on you reality that people know and bank on you thinking that way and they're going to thinking that way and they're going to thinking that way and they're going to exploit that from the beginning. You exploit that from the beginning. You exploit that from the beginning. You just you just have to introduce that just you just have to introduce that just you just have to introduce that into your your worldview or you run the into your your worldview or you run the into your your worldview or you run the risk of getting duped or manipulated by risk of getting duped or manipulated by risk of getting duped or manipulated by one of these people. and and and it one of these people. and and and it one of these people. and and and it could be financially devastating, could be financially devastating, could be financially devastating, emotionally devastating, emotionally devastating, emotionally devastating, uh devastating with your time, your uh devastating with your time, your uh devastating with your time, your resources. resources. resources. >> Is there a particular profile of victim >> Is there a particular profile of victim >> Is there a particular profile of victim that these sorts of people tend to go that these sorts of people tend to go that these sorts of people tend to go for? for? for? >> Good question. I would say no. And >> Good question. I would say no. And >> Good question. I would say no. And here's why. here's why. here's why. >> Oh, they're an equal equal opportunity >> Oh, they're an equal equal opportunity >> Oh, they're an equal equal opportunity attacker. attacker. attacker. >> I think they vet everyone. And the >> I think they vet everyone. And the >> I think they vet everyone. And the analogy I use is often like the used car analogy I use is often like the used car analogy I use is often like the used car salesperson. Anyone who shows up on the salesperson. Anyone who shows up on the salesperson. Anyone who shows up on the lot, they're going to try to sell a used lot, they're going to try to sell a used lot, they're going to try to sell a used car to you. They're not going to try to car to you. They're not going to try to car to you. They're not going to try to figure out how vulnerable you are. figure out how vulnerable you are. figure out how vulnerable you are. They're going to just start doing their They're going to just start doing their They're going to just start doing their things, their pitches first. They will things, their pitches first. They will things, their pitches first. They will stick around the people who take the stick around the people who take the stick around the people who take the second, third, fourth, and fifth pitch. second, third, fourth, and fifth pitch. second, third, fourth, and fifth pitch. I mean, the one that just walks away I mean, the one that just walks away I mean, the one that just walks away outright. They're not going to outright. They're not going to outright. They're not going to necessarily follow home. necessarily follow home. necessarily follow home. >> Oh, they're just they're just split >> Oh, they're just they're just split >> Oh, they're just they're just split testing for who's got sufficient testing for who's got sufficient testing for who's got sufficient resilience to put up with resilience to put up with resilience to put up with >> there. There will eventually be somebody >> there. There will eventually be somebody >> there. There will eventually be somebody who is resilient enough, not because who is resilient enough, not because who is resilient enough, not because they're flawed, but because they just they're flawed, but because they just they're flawed, but because they just have a lot of resilience. Um, who will have a lot of resilience. Um, who will have a lot of resilience. Um, who will take the fifth and sixth and seventh take the fifth and sixth and seventh take the fifth and sixth and seventh piece of BS and not like fact check or piece of BS and not like fact check or piece of BS and not like fact check or do anything. And then those are the ones do anything. And then those are the ones do anything. And then those are the ones they'll latch on to. they'll latch on to. they'll latch on to. >> So, actually, it is it's not necessarily >> So, actually, it is it's not necessarily >> So, actually, it is it's not necessarily that they're well, it is a kind of that they're well, it is a kind of that they're well, it is a kind of selection, but it's closer to natural selection, but it's closer to natural selection, but it's closer to natural selection than conscious selection. Yes, selection than conscious selection. Yes, selection than conscious selection. Yes, >> they're going to put out a particular >> they're going to put out a particular >> they're going to put out a particular type of behavior and there is going to type of behavior and there is going to type of behavior and there is going to be a drop off and a survival bias is be a drop off and a survival bias is be a drop off and a survival bias is going to kick in and whoever is left. going to kick in and whoever is left. going to kick in and whoever is left. So, this is a different way for me to So, this is a different way for me to So, this is a different way for me to ask the same question. ask the same question. ask the same question. >> Who are the who are the people that end >> Who are the who are the people that end >> Who are the who are the people that end up in these situations? Because it seems up in these situations? Because it seems up in these situations? Because it seems to me to me to me it would be counterintuitive to think it would be counterintuitive to think it would be counterintuitive to think about somebody who was mentally about somebody who was mentally about somebody who was mentally resilient because a lot of the time when resilient because a lot of the time when resilient because a lot of the time when I think about people who are in I think about people who are in I think about people who are in relationships with BPD narcissism relationships with BPD narcissism relationships with BPD narcissism personal it's that they were almost a personal it's that they were almost a personal it's that they were almost a kind of vulnerabil there was a b kind of vulnerabil there was a b kind of vulnerabil there was a b vulnerability that was manipulated by vulnerability that was manipulated by vulnerability that was manipulated by them. So, how do you square? Is it them. So, how do you square? Is it them. So, how do you square? Is it resilience? Is there something else? resilience? Is there something else? resilience? Is there something else? Like, who are the people that end up Like, who are the people that end up Like, who are the people that end up going deep? going deep? going deep? >> I would say it's an emotional >> I would say it's an emotional >> I would say it's an emotional resilience. They can take a beating long resilience. They can take a beating long resilience. They can take a beating long long enough to where by the time they long enough to where by the time they long enough to where by the time they even start entertaining the possibility even start entertaining the possibility even start entertaining the possibility that they should exit the relationship, that they should exit the relationship, that they should exit the relationship, they're already kind of biochemically they're already kind of biochemically they're already kind of biochemically hijacked. hijacked. hijacked. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> By the dynamic. >> By the dynamic. >> By the dynamic. >> Y. And so, um, but I would, but I but >> Y. And so, um, but I would, but I but >> Y. And so, um, but I would, but I but I'm cautious to have this conversation I'm cautious to have this conversation I'm cautious to have this conversation to say that I think that you should be to say that I think that you should be to say that I think that you should be less agreeable or less conscientious or less agreeable or less conscientious or less agreeable or less conscientious or less kind because those aren't the less kind because those aren't the less kind because those aren't the things that got you into the bad things that got you into the bad things that got you into the bad situation. What got you into the bad situation. What got you into the bad situation. What got you into the bad situation is someone exploiting those situation is someone exploiting those situation is someone exploiting those things. things. things. >> Well, that was exact that's exactly what >> Well, that was exact that's exactly what >> Well, that was exact that's exactly what I was thinking as you were talking. You I was thinking as you were talking. You I was thinking as you were talking. You know, you're saying, "Oh, you must be know, you're saying, "Oh, you must be know, you're saying, "Oh, you must be careful about this thing at the first careful about this thing at the first careful about this thing at the first stage and this thing at the second stage and this thing at the second stage and this thing at the second stage." I go, "Wow." You know, what a stage." I go, "Wow." You know, what a stage." I go, "Wow." You know, what a what a difficult what a difficult what a difficult how how uh skeptical and cynical and how how uh skeptical and cynical and how how uh skeptical and cynical and highly scrutinous I must be of all of highly scrutinous I must be of all of highly scrutinous I must be of all of the different people that I encounter in the different people that I encounter in the different people that I encounter in case they're going to. And what you're case they're going to. And what you're case they're going to. And what you're suggesting is that the issue is not your suggesting is that the issue is not your suggesting is that the issue is not your positive traits. It was that there was a positive traits. It was that there was a positive traits. It was that there was a a vector of weakness. Perhaps a strength a vector of weakness. Perhaps a strength a vector of weakness. Perhaps a strength turned up too much. Your psychological turned up too much. Your psychological turned up too much. Your psychological resilience, your preparedness to turn resilience, your preparedness to turn resilience, your preparedness to turn the other cheek and forgive, your the other cheek and forgive, your the other cheek and forgive, your perhaps leaky boundaries, uh inability perhaps leaky boundaries, uh inability perhaps leaky boundaries, uh inability to assert. I have to assume that a lack to assert. I have to assume that a lack to assert. I have to assume that a lack of assertiveness is maybe one of the of assertiveness is maybe one of the of assertiveness is maybe one of the things that would be quite common here. things that would be quite common here. things that would be quite common here. >> Well, um, yeah, I mean, fear that if you >> Well, um, yeah, I mean, fear that if you >> Well, um, yeah, I mean, fear that if you assert yourself that you're going to assert yourself that you're going to assert yourself that you're going to like offend the person or that if like offend the person or that if like offend the person or that if standing up for yourself means that the standing up for yourself means that the standing up for yourself means that the other person is going to be other person is going to be other person is going to be disappointed. I mean, I think that there disappointed. I mean, I think that there disappointed. I mean, I think that there that there's always going to be room for that there's always going to be room for that there's always going to be room for all of us to investigate our own um our all of us to investigate our own um our all of us to investigate our own um our own character and our own own character and our own own character and our own vulnerabilities. I just personally I've vulnerabilities. I just personally I've vulnerabilities. I just personally I've seen people who have been who have come seen people who have been who have come seen people who have been who have come from very well um uh wellto-do and from very well um uh wellto-do and from very well um uh wellto-do and emotionally stable upbringings get duped emotionally stable upbringings get duped emotionally stable upbringings get duped by this you know following the death of by this you know following the death of by this you know following the death of the death of their spouse let's say the death of their spouse let's say the death of their spouse let's say >> like they're vulnerable in that sense >> like they're vulnerable in that sense >> like they're vulnerable in that sense but they were never somebody who was but they were never somebody who was but they were never somebody who was like a pushover or somebody who like like a pushover or somebody who like like a pushover or somebody who like gave everything everything everyone gave gave everything everything everyone gave gave everything everything everyone gave everyone everything they ever wanted. everyone everything they ever wanted. everyone everything they ever wanted. They just so happen to be in a They just so happen to be in a They just so happen to be in a vulnerable spot at 60 when they're vulnerable spot at 60 when they're vulnerable spot at 60 when they're widowed and now they want to fall in widowed and now they want to fall in widowed and now they want to fall in love again and somebody swooped, you love again and somebody swooped, you love again and somebody swooped, you know, goes into their orbit and exploits know, goes into their orbit and exploits know, goes into their orbit and exploits them. You don't need a history of being them. You don't need a history of being them. You don't need a history of being a doormat or a history of being abused a doormat or a history of being abused a doormat or a history of being abused as a child to fall prey to these as a child to fall prey to these as a child to fall prey to these individuals. They they will vet anyone, individuals. They they will vet anyone, individuals. They they will vet anyone, you know. That's just important to you know. That's just important to you know. That's just important to realize. I I and I I I'm cautious to I realize. I I and I I I'm cautious to I realize. I I and I I I'm cautious to I don't want people to think that they don't want people to think that they don't want people to think that they have to do a personality makeover to have to do a personality makeover to have to do a personality makeover to avoid this either. Um I think that's avoid this either. Um I think that's avoid this either. Um I think that's what a lot of unfortunately a lot of what a lot of unfortunately a lot of what a lot of unfortunately a lot of people that I've worked with and that people that I've worked with and that people that I've worked with and that I've consulted with, they tell me that I've consulted with, they tell me that I've consulted with, they tell me that they've gone to three or four therapists they've gone to three or four therapists they've gone to three or four therapists who have told them this only happened who have told them this only happened who have told them this only happened because you're codependent or because because you're codependent or because because you're codependent or because you have a attachment or because you you have a attachment or because you you have a attachment or because you didn't work out your childhood issues didn't work out your childhood issues didn't work out your childhood issues with your mom and you were vulnerable to with your mom and you were vulnerable to with your mom and you were vulnerable to this. That's not necessarily true. You this. That's not necessarily true. You this. That's not necessarily true. You know, it might be that there's just we know, it might be that there's just we know, it might be that there's just we have to come to terms with the fact that have to come to terms with the fact that have to come to terms with the fact that they're people who don't play by the they're people who don't play by the they're people who don't play by the social rules we've decided are are social rules we've decided are are social rules we've decided are are beneficial and so they're going to beneficial and so they're going to beneficial and so they're going to pretend to play by them and then they're pretend to play by them and then they're pretend to play by them and then they're going to exploit you. And it's not that going to exploit you. And it's not that going to exploit you. And it's not that you had a bad childhood or your you had a bad childhood or your you had a bad childhood or your relationship with your dad wasn't strong relationship with your dad wasn't strong relationship with your dad wasn't strong enough. It's just that person found an enough. It's just that person found an enough. It's just that person found an opportunity. They're preferential and opportunity. They're preferential and opportunity. They're preferential and opportunistic >> with other bits of behavior. What about >> with other bits of behavior. What about um flirting or creating drama to um flirting or creating drama to um flirting or creating drama to manipulate people? How when does manipulate people? How when does manipulate people? How when does flirting and drama turn into flirting and drama turn into flirting and drama turn into manipulation manipulation manipulation >> in in the in the cluster B >> in in the in the cluster B >> in in the in the cluster B personalities? Um seduction is kind of personalities? Um seduction is kind of personalities? Um seduction is kind of like um like um like um like a central feature of that is charm like a central feature of that is charm like a central feature of that is charm and seduction and charisma. Um, so I and seduction and charisma. Um, so I and seduction and charisma. Um, so I would say I mean that's kind of a hard would say I mean that's kind of a hard would say I mean that's kind of a hard question to answer because um question to answer because um question to answer because um they use that as a they use that as a they use that as a >> flirtation is manipulation. >> flirtation is manipulation. >> flirtation is manipulation. >> They use it to begin with. >> They use it to begin with. >> They use it to begin with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Even if they're sincerely attracted to >> Even if they're sincerely attracted to >> Even if they're sincerely attracted to you, they're still using flirtation you, they're still using flirtation you, they're still using flirtation as a weapon. as a weapon. as a weapon. >> It are people with cluster B personality >> It are people with cluster B personality >> It are people with cluster B personality disorders, are they more attractive on disorders, are they more attractive on disorders, are they more attractive on average average average >> physically? >> physically? >> physically? Why do you ask? That's an interesting Why do you ask? That's an interesting Why do you ask? That's an interesting question. question. question. >> I was wondering whether there is a uh >> I was wondering whether there is a uh >> I was wondering whether there is a uh physical manifestation that goes along physical manifestation that goes along physical manifestation that goes along with the behavioral trait. with the behavioral trait. with the behavioral trait. >> Yeah, it's a good question. Um that'd be a good question for an that'd be a good question for an evolutionary psychologist, too. But but evolutionary psychologist, too. But but evolutionary psychologist, too. But but I mean I'll answer it uh kind of I mean I'll answer it uh kind of I mean I'll answer it uh kind of generically, if you will. I think yet generically, if you will. I think yet generically, if you will. I think yet there's an interesting correlation there's an interesting correlation there's an interesting correlation between like you know you know there's between like you know you know there's between like you know you know there's it's common for them to be attractive. it's common for them to be attractive. it's common for them to be attractive. There's not a particular physical type There's not a particular physical type There's not a particular physical type though. I don't want to give off that though. I don't want to give off that though. I don't want to give off that idea. idea. idea. >> Short, tall, big, small. >> Short, tall, big, small. >> Short, tall, big, small. >> I think what it has more to do with is >> I think what it has more to do with is >> I think what it has more to do with is someone's not their actual physical someone's not their actual physical someone's not their actual physical appearance, but their self-concept. appearance, but their self-concept. appearance, but their self-concept. They have a very high self-concept. So, They have a very high self-concept. So, They have a very high self-concept. So, it's almost like they have this way of it's almost like they have this way of it's almost like they have this way of convincing you to believe about them convincing you to believe about them convincing you to believe about them what they believe about themselves, even what they believe about themselves, even what they believe about themselves, even if it's not objectively true. So that's if it's not objectively true. So that's if it's not objectively true. So that's why I'm kind of hesitant is because why I'm kind of hesitant is because why I'm kind of hesitant is because somebody who is objectively unattractive somebody who is objectively unattractive somebody who is objectively unattractive could be a cluster B and actually be could be a cluster B and actually be could be a cluster B and actually be very attractive. Like people would find very attractive. Like people would find very attractive. Like people would find them very attractive even if they're not them very attractive even if they're not them very attractive even if they're not traditionally what we would constitute traditionally what we would constitute traditionally what we would constitute or you know or you know or you know >> that's their presentation. It's >> that's their presentation. It's >> that's their presentation. It's beguiling, endearing, charming. beguiling, endearing, charming. beguiling, endearing, charming. >> And it's also their authentic belief >> And it's also their authentic belief >> And it's also their authentic belief that they're they're that great. I mean that they're they're that great. I mean that they're they're that great. I mean it's it's a sincere belief. It's that's it's it's a sincere belief. It's that's it's it's a sincere belief. It's that's why I say it's not a compensation cuz why I say it's not a compensation cuz why I say it's not a compensation cuz they truly are they're feeling great. they truly are they're feeling great. they truly are they're feeling great. >> Well, we use confidence as a proxy for >> Well, we use confidence as a proxy for >> Well, we use confidence as a proxy for competence, right? Like it's typically competence, right? Like it's typically competence, right? Like it's typically confidence is a lagging measure of confidence is a lagging measure of confidence is a lagging measure of somebody's somebody's somebody's uh level of development in whatever they level of development in whatever they are confident about. are confident about. are confident about. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like our confidence is in some way >> Like our confidence is in some way >> Like our confidence is in some way supposed to be associated with whatever supposed to be associated with whatever supposed to be associated with whatever the we're confident about. And the we're confident about. And the we're confident about. And therefore, if somebody turns up and therefore, if somebody turns up and therefore, if somebody turns up and they're full of bravado and they're very they're full of bravado and they're very they're full of bravado and they're very seductive, seductive, seductive, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> That that can give the effect of being >> That that can give the effect of being >> That that can give the effect of being attractive attractive attractive without the challenge of having to be without the challenge of having to be without the challenge of having to be attractive. attractive. attractive. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And that it's I guess messy or at least >> And that it's I guess messy or at least >> And that it's I guess messy or at least complex the way that humans become complex the way that humans become complex the way that humans become attracted. It's not raw physicality. attracted. It's not raw physicality. attracted. It's not raw physicality. >> That's an important aspect. I think a >> That's an important aspect. I think a >> That's an important aspect. I think a lot of times what we mistake what we lot of times what we mistake what we lot of times what we mistake what we mistake arrogance for confidence in mistake arrogance for confidence in mistake arrogance for confidence in these individuals. these individuals. these individuals. So they are very relaxed and they're So they are very relaxed and they're So they are very relaxed and they're like they're calm and and we we can like they're calm and and we we can like they're calm and and we we can think, oh, they're comfortable in their think, oh, they're comfortable in their think, oh, they're comfortable in their own skin. You know, maybe they're really own skin. You know, maybe they're really own skin. You know, maybe they're really confident. They could actually just be confident. They could actually just be confident. They could actually just be arrogant, right? So the difference arrogant, right? So the difference arrogant, right? So the difference between confidence and arrogance, between confidence and arrogance, between confidence and arrogance, confidence is an earned self-esteem or confidence is an earned self-esteem or confidence is an earned self-esteem or self-regard. like you're confident self-regard. like you're confident self-regard. like you're confident because if someone asks you a question because if someone asks you a question because if someone asks you a question or asks you to or puts this to the test, or asks you to or puts this to the test, or asks you to or puts this to the test, you're confident because you could you're confident because you could you're confident because you could perform it, you know, and and and and perform it, you know, and and and and perform it, you know, and and and and demonstrate your ability or capacity. demonstrate your ability or capacity. demonstrate your ability or capacity. Arrogance is just saying like it's Arrogance is just saying like it's Arrogance is just saying like it's saying I'm good at something but not saying I'm good at something but not saying I'm good at something but not actually backing it up. But the problem actually backing it up. But the problem actually backing it up. But the problem with a narcissist is they believe with a narcissist is they believe with a narcissist is they believe they're great at things that they can't they're great at things that they can't they're great at things that they can't back up. So, it's very convincing cuz back up. So, it's very convincing cuz back up. So, it's very convincing cuz they're not actually secondguessing they're not actually secondguessing they're not actually secondguessing themselves when they're trying to sell themselves when they're trying to sell themselves when they're trying to sell you something. They're sincerely you something. They're sincerely you something. They're sincerely believing they're good at something that believing they're good at something that believing they're good at something that they could be terrible at. they could be terrible at. they could be terrible at. >> The the sales pitch isn't is is >> The the sales pitch isn't is is >> The the sales pitch isn't is is authentic. authentic. authentic. You know, You know, You know, >> I'm wondering how many Oh, actually >> I'm wondering how many Oh, actually >> I'm wondering how many Oh, actually that's a good question. Of the people that's a good question. Of the people that's a good question. Of the people of the people that we're talking about, of the people that we're talking about, of the people that we're talking about, of these cluster B people, of these cluster B people, of these cluster B people, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> what are the things that they would >> what are the things that they would >> what are the things that they would almost never do? because almost never do? because almost never do? because you've mentioned these personalities you've mentioned these personalities you've mentioned these personalities will behave in a manner that kind of will behave in a manner that kind of will behave in a manner that kind of breaks down defenses that that laps as a breaks down defenses that that laps as a breaks down defenses that that laps as a normal functioning human and then after normal functioning human and then after normal functioning human and then after they've got investment and you're they've got investment and you're they've got investment and you're prepared to accommodate more that's when prepared to accommodate more that's when prepared to accommodate more that's when the veil tends to get revealed or I the veil tends to get revealed or I the veil tends to get revealed or I guess in the version of narcissism it's guess in the version of narcissism it's guess in the version of narcissism it's that they want you they they are trying that they want you they they are trying that they want you they they are trying to get you because you are everything to to get you because you are everything to to get you because you are everything to them but once they've got you perhaps them but once they've got you perhaps them but once they've got you perhaps you're disposed of. I'm wondering if you're disposed of. I'm wondering if you're disposed of. I'm wondering if there are any there are any there are any behaviors you you mentioned calm uh uh behaviors you you mentioned calm uh uh behaviors you you mentioned calm uh uh sort of in control. sort of in control. sort of in control. >> I'm wondering if there are any behaviors >> I'm wondering if there are any behaviors >> I'm wondering if there are any behaviors that are very rare to see manifest in that are very rare to see manifest in that are very rare to see manifest in these people. these people. these people. >> Uh would ever seeing them be very very >> Uh would ever seeing them be very very >> Uh would ever seeing them be very very loud and out of control and and is that loud and out of control and and is that loud and out of control and and is that a a rare thing? Are they rarely funny? a a rare thing? Are they rarely funny? a a rare thing? Are they rarely funny? Are they rarely? Are they rarely? Are they rarely? >> Uh what are the potential behaviors that >> Uh what are the potential behaviors that >> Uh what are the potential behaviors that if somebody does do it if somebody does do it if somebody does do it >> that would be a suggestion that they're >> that would be a suggestion that they're >> that would be a suggestion that they're not or that is much rarer to see not or that is much rarer to see not or that is much rarer to see >> that they're not what >> that they're not what >> that they're not what >> uh in this cluster B um >> uh in this cluster B um >> uh in this cluster B um >> oh like ways to determine if somebody >> oh like ways to determine if somebody >> oh like ways to determine if somebody wouldn't fit the criteria like by a wouldn't fit the criteria like by a wouldn't fit the criteria like by a >> based on based on something that they do >> based on based on something that they do >> based on based on something that they do do. I'm aware that this is difficult do. I'm aware that this is difficult do. I'm aware that this is difficult because the lapping as a human thing because the lapping as a human thing because the lapping as a human thing means that all of that can be performed. means that all of that can be performed. means that all of that can be performed. But I just wondered if there was But I just wondered if there was But I just wondered if there was something that these people typically something that these people typically something that these people typically don't have access to even in don't have access to even in don't have access to even in performance. performance. performance. >> Yeah, it's really that's that's a great >> Yeah, it's really that's that's a great >> Yeah, it's really that's that's a great question. Um and that I mean that's question. Um and that I mean that's question. Um and that I mean that's certainly a relevant question across the certainly a relevant question across the certainly a relevant question across the board because personal uh personal board because personal uh personal board because personal uh personal relationships but even clinical practice relationships but even clinical practice relationships but even clinical practice I was thinking it's important to know I was thinking it's important to know I was thinking it's important to know these things. Um these things. Um these things. Um I'll tell you I'll tell you this. I'll tell you I'll tell you this. I'll tell you I'll tell you this. There's something called um there are There's something called um there are There's something called um there are some and I'm not going to go into detail some and I'm not going to go into detail some and I'm not going to go into detail on this. I'll just kind of introduce the on this. I'll just kind of introduce the on this. I'll just kind of introduce the topic and then people can research it. topic and then people can research it. topic and then people can research it. But neurological soft signs are these But neurological soft signs are these But neurological soft signs are these psychoot sort of like behaviors psychoot sort of like behaviors psychoot sort of like behaviors tendencies that are operating in the tendencies that are operating in the tendencies that are operating in the body. Some people who have a disorder body. Some people who have a disorder body. Some people who have a disorder like this, you can actually tell by that like this, you can actually tell by that like this, you can actually tell by that some mannerisms and ways in which their some mannerisms and ways in which their some mannerisms and ways in which their their system is operating from just a their system is operating from just a their system is operating from just a neurological perspective where there's neurological perspective where there's neurological perspective where there's signs that you can see in their uh signs that you can see in their uh signs that you can see in their uh psychoot behavior. psychoot behavior. psychoot behavior. >> Um how they would respond and make eye >> Um how they would respond and make eye >> Um how they would respond and make eye contact after a particular type of contact after a particular type of contact after a particular type of question, their body, their face, their question, their body, their face, their question, their body, their face, their eyes. I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, eyes. I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, eyes. I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, almost woowoo, but there are certain almost woowoo, but there are certain almost woowoo, but there are certain things that that um can show you how things that that um can show you how things that that um can show you how they're processing or perceiving they're processing or perceiving they're processing or perceiving information. This would require like a information. This would require like a information. This would require like a lot of study and skill. Um, but there it lot of study and skill. Um, but there it lot of study and skill. Um, but there it is a thing that there there are these is a thing that there there are these is a thing that there there are these these sort of signs, if you will, not these sort of signs, if you will, not these sort of signs, if you will, not across the board. Um, but there's that. across the board. Um, but there's that. across the board. Um, but there's that. Um, something they wouldn't do often is Um, something they wouldn't do often is Um, something they wouldn't do often is collaborate or take accountability. collaborate or take accountability. collaborate or take accountability. even performatively rarely. even performatively rarely. even performatively rarely. >> Yeah. I mean, they they don't really >> Yeah. I mean, they they don't really >> Yeah. I mean, they they don't really have the capacity to do it all the time, have the capacity to do it all the time, have the capacity to do it all the time, even in a faint way where they're even in a faint way where they're even in a faint way where they're constantly in character. I mean, it'll constantly in character. I mean, it'll constantly in character. I mean, it'll slip eventually. There'll be a slip eventually. There'll be a slip eventually. There'll be a contradiction or an inconsistency. contradiction or an inconsistency. contradiction or an inconsistency. Um Um Um because they don't they lack the because they don't they lack the because they don't they lack the function to use a thought properly long function to use a thought properly long function to use a thought properly long term to say, "Oh, you know, this is term to say, "Oh, you know, this is term to say, "Oh, you know, this is probably a time where I should be probably a time where I should be probably a time where I should be agreeable." They lack that function. agreeable." They lack that function. agreeable." They lack that function. They can they can um They can they can um They can they can um they can do it temporarily but they they can do it temporarily but they they can do it temporarily but they can't maintain it permanently. can't maintain it permanently. can't maintain it permanently. >> Is it possible for someone to sort of >> Is it possible for someone to sort of >> Is it possible for someone to sort of genuinely be in emotional pain and still genuinely be in emotional pain and still genuinely be in emotional pain and still choose to hurt others? I guess hurt choose to hurt others? I guess hurt choose to hurt others? I guess hurt people hurt people is people hurt people is people hurt people is >> the meme. But is that something that >> the meme. But is that something that >> the meme. But is that something that actually can happen? actually can happen? actually can happen? >> Can people who are in a state of feeling >> Can people who are in a state of feeling >> Can people who are in a state of feeling profoundly hurt react by hurting others? profoundly hurt react by hurting others? profoundly hurt react by hurting others? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. But yeah, yeah, >> Yes. But yeah, yeah, >> Yes. But yeah, yeah, >> totally. It's just not the causitive >> totally. It's just not the causitive >> totally. It's just not the causitive factor of personality disorders. factor of personality disorders. factor of personality disorders. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think I'm I'm I'm thinking about the lineage I'm I'm thinking about the lineage I'm I'm thinking about the lineage between So actually that's another point that we So actually that's another point that we probably didn't get on the probably didn't get on the probably didn't get on the environmental environmental environmental catalyst for potentially the raw catalyst for potentially the raw catalyst for potentially the raw material of someone's genetic material of someone's genetic material of someone's genetic predisposition. Let's say that you were going to Let's say that you were going to maximize the expression of someone's maximize the expression of someone's maximize the expression of someone's potential cluster B personality potential cluster B personality potential cluster B personality disorder. disorder. disorder. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What would you do to a child in order to >> What would you do to a child in order to >> What would you do to a child in order to cause that to happen? What would be the cause that to happen? What would be the cause that to happen? What would be the sort of environment that that child sort of environment that that child sort of environment that that child would grow up in? would grow up in? would grow up in? >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. So, what would be the environment to So, what would be the environment to So, what would be the environment to ideally produce a cluster B? ideally produce a cluster B? ideally produce a cluster B? >> Yes. Let's say you, as we've identified >> Yes. Let's say you, as we've identified >> Yes. Let's say you, as we've identified earlier on, the raw materials need to be earlier on, the raw materials need to be earlier on, the raw materials need to be there in some form or another. Let's say there in some form or another. Let's say there in some form or another. Let's say you've got, you know, you've got a good you've got, you know, you've got a good you've got, you know, you've got a good a good raw material child a good raw material child a good raw material child >> and you're going to try and maximize the >> and you're going to try and maximize the >> and you're going to try and maximize the expression of that through childhood expression of that through childhood expression of that through childhood into adulthood so that it's the most into adulthood so that it's the most into adulthood so that it's the most cluster B person that we can get out of cluster B person that we can get out of cluster B person that we can get out of these raw materials. What would you do these raw materials. What would you do these raw materials. What would you do to that person in early childhood, to that person in early childhood, to that person in early childhood, adulthood, everything? adulthood, everything? adulthood, everything? >> Yeah, it's a it depends on the disorder, >> Yeah, it's a it depends on the disorder, >> Yeah, it's a it depends on the disorder, but it's it's such a great question. but it's it's such a great question. but it's it's such a great question. been such a great thought experiment. If been such a great thought experiment. If been such a great thought experiment. If it were a narcissist, you would it were a narcissist, you would it were a narcissist, you would challenge their superiority and their challenge their superiority and their challenge their superiority and their grandiosity every time. So, you would grandiosity every time. So, you would grandiosity every time. So, you would enforce boundaries. You would tell them enforce boundaries. You would tell them enforce boundaries. You would tell them people are equal. You would um nurture people are equal. You would um nurture people are equal. You would um nurture them with kindness and love when they them with kindness and love when they them with kindness and love when they felt misunderstood. Those things would felt misunderstood. Those things would felt misunderstood. Those things would actually exacerbate their narcissism if actually exacerbate their narcissism if actually exacerbate their narcissism if they have the trait profile that's they have the trait profile that's they have the trait profile that's startup for narcissism. So, you would startup for narcissism. So, you would startup for narcissism. So, you would challenge their superiority. You would challenge their superiority. You would challenge their superiority. You would try to convince them people are equal try to convince them people are equal try to convince them people are equal and then um you would nurture them with and then um you would nurture them with and then um you would nurture them with love and affection when they had love and affection when they had love and affection when they had tantrums. tantrums. tantrums. >> If it were >> If it were >> If it were if it were a borderline personality, you if it were a borderline personality, you if it were a borderline personality, you would infor you you would um threaten would infor you you would um threaten would infor you you would um threaten that they could potentially be abandoned that they could potentially be abandoned that they could potentially be abandoned or you would invalidate them on a or you would invalidate them on a or you would invalidate them on a chronic basis if they already had the chronic basis if they already had the chronic basis if they already had the biological underpinnings to perceive biological underpinnings to perceive biological underpinnings to perceive um abandonment. and slights that don't um abandonment. and slights that don't um abandonment. and slights that don't exist. You would actually exist. You would actually exist. You would actually increase that fear by like trying to increase that fear by like trying to increase that fear by like trying to abandon them or pretending to abandon abandon them or pretending to abandon abandon them or pretending to abandon them or threatening that you're going to them or threatening that you're going to them or threatening that you're going to leave them because that's that's that's leave them because that's that's that's leave them because that's that's that's the mechanism that terrifies them. Um, the mechanism that terrifies them. Um, the mechanism that terrifies them. Um, if it were a histrionic personality, you if it were a histrionic personality, you if it were a histrionic personality, you would deprive them of attention. would deprive them of attention. would deprive them of attention. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Um, and if it were an antisocial or a >> Um, and if it were an antisocial or a >> Um, and if it were an antisocial or a psychopath, there's not really anything psychopath, there's not really anything psychopath, there's not really anything you I mean, you I mean, you I mean, you could um disagree with them. you could um disagree with them. you could um disagree with them. You could put up a boundary. I don't You could put up a boundary. I don't You could put up a boundary. I don't know. It's kind of hard. There's nothing know. It's kind of hard. There's nothing know. It's kind of hard. There's nothing there's nothing really that you could do there's nothing really that you could do there's nothing really that you could do in the sense that I I doubt any of those in the sense that I I doubt any of those in the sense that I I doubt any of those things would be like not doing those things would be like not doing those things would be like not doing those things would be preventative, right? things would be preventative, right? things would be preventative, right? because we're still talking about um because we're still talking about um because we're still talking about um significant heritability and just the significant heritability and just the significant heritability and just the way these traits operate if they're way these traits operate if they're way these traits operate if they're intrinsic intrinsic intrinsic um you're going to have those tendencies um you're going to have those tendencies um you're going to have those tendencies or behaviors no matter what. I mean or behaviors no matter what. I mean or behaviors no matter what. I mean there are certainly ways to exacerbate there are certainly ways to exacerbate there are certainly ways to exacerbate it, it, it, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I often >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I often >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I often think about I one of my favorite think about I one of my favorite think about I one of my favorite question framings on the show is sort of question framings on the show is sort of question framings on the show is sort of what do most people get wrong about X? what do most people get wrong about X? what do most people get wrong about X? Or if you were like, for instance, Or if you were like, for instance, Or if you were like, for instance, instead of saying um instead of saying um instead of saying um >> uh how do I get the best night's sleep? >> uh how do I get the best night's sleep? >> uh how do I get the best night's sleep? It's let's say that you were in charge It's let's say that you were in charge It's let's say that you were in charge of me for 24 hours. What would you do to of me for 24 hours. What would you do to of me for 24 hours. What would you do to ensure that I got the worst night's ensure that I got the worst night's ensure that I got the worst night's sleep? sleep? sleep? >> And um I think that framing is really >> And um I think that framing is really >> And um I think that framing is really interesting. It's just it's it's it's a interesting. It's just it's it's it's a interesting. It's just it's it's it's a nice inversion and what it usually gets nice inversion and what it usually gets nice inversion and what it usually gets at is the important pareto big mover is at is the important pareto big mover is at is the important pareto big mover is in any case, which is what the the first in any case, which is what the the first in any case, which is what the the first question like I have a child and I don't question like I have a child and I don't question like I have a child and I don't want them to become a psychopath. What want them to become a psychopath. What want them to become a psychopath. What should I do? That's kind of a messy, but should I do? That's kind of a messy, but should I do? That's kind of a messy, but I don't I want my child to become a I don't I want my child to become a I don't I want my child to become a psychopath is oddly for some reason it psychopath is oddly for some reason it psychopath is oddly for some reason it just seems to be a little bit a little just seems to be a little bit a little just seems to be a little bit a little bit easier to access. bit easier to access. bit easier to access. >> No, you're absolutely right actually. >> No, you're absolutely right actually. >> No, you're absolutely right actually. And now I have better answers for it as And now I have better answers for it as And now I have better answers for it as you as you explained it to me now. I you as you explained it to me now. I you as you explained it to me now. I would say if if you want your child to would say if if you want your child to would say if if you want your child to become a psychopath, you challenge their become a psychopath, you challenge their become a psychopath, you challenge their authority. You challenge you challenge pretty much You challenge you challenge pretty much anything they want to do that feels good anything they want to do that feels good anything they want to do that feels good for them to do. Um, for them to do. Um, for them to do. Um, >> they don't like being told about >> they don't like being told about >> they don't like being told about anything related to limits. anything related to limits. anything related to limits. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. Histrionic. Histrionic. Histrionic. That's That's That's that that's like hysteria, loud, that that's like hysteria, loud, that that's like hysteria, loud, dramatic. dramatic. dramatic. >> That's the word that it's derived from. >> That's the word that it's derived from. >> That's the word that it's derived from. And and essentially um like hysterical. And and essentially um like hysterical. And and essentially um like hysterical. But yeah, they are the they are the But yeah, they are the they are the But yeah, they are the they are the typical highly highly highly um typical highly highly highly um typical highly highly highly um attention seeking to anoint a point attention seeking to anoint a point attention seeking to anoint a point where they like ruthless ruthlessly where they like ruthless ruthlessly where they like ruthless ruthlessly extort attention. So it's not just I extort attention. So it's not just I extort attention. So it's not just I want to be seen. It's if it's your want to be seen. It's if it's your want to be seen. It's if it's your birthday and you're getting the birthday and you're getting the birthday and you're getting the attention, I'm going to find a way to attention, I'm going to find a way to attention, I'm going to find a way to make your birthday about me. So and make your birthday about me. So and make your birthday about me. So and there's and and actually what they're there's and and actually what they're there's and and actually what they're lacking is shame. They don't have enough lacking is shame. They don't have enough lacking is shame. They don't have enough shame. They do things in public and say shame. They do things in public and say shame. They do things in public and say things that most people would be things that most people would be things that most people would be humiliated to do or say. They actually humiliated to do or say. They actually humiliated to do or say. They actually do them because their end goal is do them because their end goal is do them because their end goal is getting the attention. It doesn't matter getting the attention. It doesn't matter getting the attention. It doesn't matter if it's negative or positive. if it's negative or positive. if it's negative or positive. >> So they can behave very shameless uh >> So they can behave very shameless uh >> So they can behave very shameless uh shamefully in order to get the shamefully in order to get the shamefully in order to get the attention. That's the goal. attention. That's the goal. attention. That's the goal. >> What's the percentage of the >> What's the percentage of the >> What's the percentage of the population that's got something that population that's got something that population that's got something that would fall in the disordered beyond the would fall in the disordered beyond the would fall in the disordered beyond the disordered threshold for these traits? disordered threshold for these traits? disordered threshold for these traits? Um I would say in the general population Um I would say in the general population Um I would say in the general population based on um based on um based on um most recent numbers and trainings that most recent numbers and trainings that most recent numbers and trainings that I've attended related to this prevalence I've attended related to this prevalence I've attended related to this prevalence estimates and stuff like 15 to 19% estimates and stuff like 15 to 19% estimates and stuff like 15 to 19% >> of the population. >> of the population. >> of the population. >> So one in five nearly one in five one in >> So one in five nearly one in five one in >> So one in five nearly one in five one in five one in six. five one in six. five one in six. >> Does it skew? Is there a sex difference >> Does it skew? Is there a sex difference >> Does it skew? Is there a sex difference here? >> Not significant. >> Not significant. No more fe male psychopaths, no more fil No more fe male psychopaths, no more fil No more fe male psychopaths, no more fil fe female narcissists. fe female narcissists. fe female narcissists. >> It it in in certain in certain >> It it in in certain in certain >> It it in in certain in certain population samples, but I would say most population samples, but I would say most population samples, but I would say most of the time I would say in the general of the time I would say in the general of the time I would say in the general population, it's probably um not population, it's probably um not population, it's probably um not too outrageous to say that it's almost too outrageous to say that it's almost too outrageous to say that it's almost even. It's it's almost half. even. It's it's almost half. even. It's it's almost half. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What about when you drill down into a >> What about when you drill down into a >> What about when you drill down into a few a few other population? That's why few a few other population? That's why few a few other population? That's why I'm kind of that's why I'm kind of I'm kind of that's why I'm kind of I'm kind of that's why I'm kind of hesitant because like if we look at like hesitant because like if we look at like hesitant because like if we look at like borderline personality, which is a borderline personality, which is a borderline personality, which is a cluster B personality, the prevalence cluster B personality, the prevalence cluster B personality, the prevalence estimates are gender prevalence is um 54 estimates are gender prevalence is um 54 estimates are gender prevalence is um 54 and 46 with it being more predominantly and 46 with it being more predominantly and 46 with it being more predominantly female. Okay. female. Okay. female. Okay. >> Um histrionic is depending on who you >> Um histrionic is depending on who you >> Um histrionic is depending on who you ask, but the prevalence estimates that I ask, but the prevalence estimates that I ask, but the prevalence estimates that I recently received are like 50/50 in male recently received are like 50/50 in male recently received are like 50/50 in male and female for histrionic. and female for histrionic. and female for histrionic. like like like >> that interesting again derived from >> that interesting again derived from >> that interesting again derived from hysteria and wasn't female hysteria hysteria and wasn't female hysteria hysteria and wasn't female hysteria >> diagnosis for a long time >> diagnosis for a long time >> diagnosis for a long time >> and uh just as many guys >> and uh just as many guys >> and uh just as many guys >> just absolutely >> just absolutely >> just absolutely >> waving the flag. But what must be >> waving the flag. But what must be >> waving the flag. But what must be interesting is the way that a male interesting is the way that a male interesting is the way that a male histrionic histrionic histrionic >> demonstrates their drama. >> demonstrates their drama. >> demonstrates their drama. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. It could look different. So you >> Yeah. It could look different. So you >> Yeah. It could look different. So you could then say it's a completely could then say it's a completely could then say it's a completely different thing. But different thing. But different thing. But >> that's that's an interesting question. >> that's that's an interesting question. >> that's that's an interesting question. So what what are the biggest sex So what what are the biggest sex So what what are the biggest sex differences in the ways that the same differences in the ways that the same differences in the ways that the same pathology pathology pathology the same disorder shows up in the sexes the same disorder shows up in the sexes the same disorder shows up in the sexes like female narcissists X and male like female narcissists X and male like female narcissists X and male narcissists Y and female psychopath? narcissists Y and female psychopath? narcissists Y and female psychopath? What are the ways that they diverge the What are the ways that they diverge the What are the ways that they diverge the most? most? most? >> You know, I'll be honest. I think that >> You know, I'll be honest. I think that >> You know, I'll be honest. I think that there's less sex differences in their there's less sex differences in their there's less sex differences in their traits than than there are gender traits than than there are gender traits than than there are gender differences. And so I think it's more differences. And so I think it's more differences. And so I think it's more socially and culturally different. Like socially and culturally different. Like socially and culturally different. Like so somebody might use a gender so somebody might use a gender so somebody might use a gender stereotype who has like somebody who has stereotype who has like somebody who has stereotype who has like somebody who has one of these disorders might use a one of these disorders might use a one of these disorders might use a gender stereotype to make it more gender stereotype to make it more gender stereotype to make it more believable to conceal their manipulation believable to conceal their manipulation believable to conceal their manipulation more. So they might operate within the more. So they might operate within the more. So they might operate within the constraints of a particular constraints of a particular constraints of a particular stereotypical gender, but I think the stereotypical gender, but I think the stereotypical gender, but I think the traits themselves are are gender are sex traits themselves are are gender are sex traits themselves are are gender are sex neutral. neutral. neutral. >> I think a callous female is is similar >> I think a callous female is is similar >> I think a callous female is is similar to a callous male in the sense that they to a callous male in the sense that they to a callous male in the sense that they don't feel the slightest bit of uh the don't feel the slightest bit of uh the don't feel the slightest bit of uh the slightest bit unnerved when other people slightest bit unnerved when other people slightest bit unnerved when other people are experiencing pain. Surely the are experiencing pain. Surely the are experiencing pain. Surely the capacity of the female for capacity of the female for capacity of the female for um social manipulation like if you um social manipulation like if you um social manipulation like if you control for psychopathy or if you control for psychopathy or if you control for psychopathy or if you control for narcissism, the female the control for narcissism, the female the control for narcissism, the female the female is going to have better female is going to have better female is going to have better interpersonal skills on average. The interpersonal skills on average. The interpersonal skills on average. The female is going to be more conscientious female is going to be more conscientious female is going to be more conscientious on average. The female is going to be a on average. The female is going to be a on average. The female is going to be a better liar detector on average. The better liar detector on average. The better liar detector on average. The male is going to have more b body male is going to have more b body male is going to have more b body strength, body mass on average. So strength, body mass on average. So strength, body mass on average. So they're potentially going to be able to they're potentially going to be able to they're potentially going to be able to use their physical size. Uh so there use their physical size. Uh so there use their physical size. Uh so there have to be some just the tools that are have to be some just the tools that are have to be some just the tools that are at the disposal of the man and the woman at the disposal of the man and the woman at the disposal of the man and the woman are going to differ. are going to differ. are going to differ. >> Yeah, they differ. And I mean the >> Yeah, they differ. And I mean the >> Yeah, they differ. And I mean the research that I've I've uh you know um research that I've I've uh you know um research that I've I've uh you know um explored and uh kind of stumbled upon explored and uh kind of stumbled upon explored and uh kind of stumbled upon shows that what they'll do is they will shows that what they'll do is they will shows that what they'll do is they will study the best case scenario like is it study the best case scenario like is it study the best case scenario like is it in my best interest to be this in my best interest to be this in my best interest to be this stereotypically stereotypically stereotypically vulnerable because I am a female. Is it vulnerable because I am a female. Is it vulnerable because I am a female. Is it is it is it in my best interest to be is it is it in my best interest to be is it is it in my best interest to be this stereotypically like formidable and this stereotypically like formidable and this stereotypically like formidable and and and and and and and >> Right. It's all a meta game of where am >> Right. It's all a meta game of where am >> Right. It's all a meta game of where am I and where do they think I am and how I and where do they think I am and how I and where do they think I am and how Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's so many steps that they take to >> There's so many steps that they take to >> There's so many steps that they take to be ahead. I don't think they're be ahead. I don't think they're be ahead. I don't think they're effortful steps. I think a lot of times effortful steps. I think a lot of times effortful steps. I think a lot of times they're effortless. They come naturally they're effortless. They come naturally they're effortless. They come naturally to them. to them. to them. >> But they do put in a lot of effort to >> But they do put in a lot of effort to >> But they do put in a lot of effort to create an impression that's not create an impression that's not create an impression that's not accurate. and all in the hopes that you accurate. and all in the hopes that you accurate. and all in the hopes that you succumb to it and then they can get what succumb to it and then they can get what succumb to it and then they can get what they want from you. And again, we're not they want from you. And again, we're not they want from you. And again, we're not talking about good and evil. A lot of talking about good and evil. A lot of talking about good and evil. A lot of people would say that's evil. Um, from people would say that's evil. Um, from people would say that's evil. Um, from an evolutionary perspective, it's it's an evolutionary perspective, it's it's an evolutionary perspective, it's it's like there's an absence of collaboration like there's an absence of collaboration like there's an absence of collaboration and cooperation in these individuals. I and cooperation in these individuals. I and cooperation in these individuals. I would just say be advised to know they would just say be advised to know they would just say be advised to know they exist and stay away from them if you can exist and stay away from them if you can exist and stay away from them if you can and escape them if you find out. But I and escape them if you find out. But I and escape them if you find out. But I wouldn't try to ruminate over this any wouldn't try to ruminate over this any wouldn't try to ruminate over this any sort of a moral argument, sort of a moral argument, sort of a moral argument, you know? Then you're going to just be you know? Then you're going to just be you know? Then you're going to just be lost. lost. lost. >> Peter, you're you're awesome, >> Peter, you're you're awesome, >> Peter, you're you're awesome, dude. Like, this is so I think I think dude. Like, this is so I think I think dude. Like, this is so I think I think this is I think this is so interesting. this is I think this is so interesting. this is I think this is so interesting. I want to do another episode and I want I want to do another episode and I want I want to do another episode and I want to do another episode all dedicated on to do another episode all dedicated on to do another episode all dedicated on the recipient side. How people can uh the recipient side. How people can uh the recipient side. How people can uh sort of detect, evade, recover, sort of detect, evade, recover, sort of detect, evade, recover, recuperate. I think that would be recuperate. I think that would be recuperate. I think that would be awesome. But this is I can't I mean I've awesome. But this is I can't I mean I've awesome. But this is I can't I mean I've seen these videos, your videos, you seen these videos, your videos, you seen these videos, your videos, you crush it online. I've seen this stuff crush it online. I've seen this stuff crush it online. I've seen this stuff pop up and um I can see why people are pop up and um I can see why people are pop up and um I can see why people are pretty fascinated. It's kind of it's pretty fascinated. It's kind of it's pretty fascinated. It's kind of it's sort of a bit like studying sort of a bit like studying sort of a bit like studying an alien, but it's your own species in a an alien, but it's your own species in a an alien, but it's your own species in a way. way. way. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I imagine this must be pretty compelling >> I imagine this must be pretty compelling >> I imagine this must be pretty compelling work for you. work for you. work for you. >> It's compelling. Um >> It's compelling. Um >> It's compelling. Um I actually have a quote. It's I actually have a quote. It's I actually have a quote. It's interesting you mentioned that. There's interesting you mentioned that. There's interesting you mentioned that. There's a quote in one of my books about like a quote in one of my books about like a quote in one of my books about like when you really look at how how when you really look at how how when you really look at how how different these people operate and you different these people operate and you different these people operate and you accept it, like if if you let yourself accept it, like if if you let yourself accept it, like if if you let yourself accept it, which is kind of hard to do, accept it, which is kind of hard to do, accept it, which is kind of hard to do, it almost feels like you're talking it almost feels like you're talking it almost feels like you're talking about a different species because about a different species because about a different species because everything that we've decided everything that we've decided everything that we've decided collectively is beneficial for our for collectively is beneficial for our for collectively is beneficial for our for humans. humans. humans. They don't they don't think that way. They don't they don't think that way. They don't they don't think that way. So, it's bizarre. Um, I'm not saying So, it's bizarre. Um, I'm not saying So, it's bizarre. Um, I'm not saying they're not human. I'm just saying it's they're not human. I'm just saying it's they're not human. I'm just saying it's it's an interesting social experiment. it's an interesting social experiment. it's an interesting social experiment. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> dude. Let's bring this one into land. >> dude. Let's bring this one into land. >> dude. Let's bring this one into land. Uh, I feel like I could talk to you for Uh, I feel like I could talk to you for Uh, I feel like I could talk to you for the rest of the day. So, let's let's cut the rest of the day. So, let's let's cut the rest of the day. So, let's let's cut this one off now and we can we can run this one off now and we can we can run this one off now and we can we can run it back again in future. Where should it back again in future. Where should it back again in future. Where should people go to check out everything you people go to check out everything you people go to check out everything you do? do? do? >> Yeah, I'm at um I'm on Instagram at Dr. >> Yeah, I'm at um I'm on Instagram at Dr. >> Yeah, I'm at um I'm on Instagram at Dr. Peter Serno. I have a YouTube channel. I Peter Serno. I have a YouTube channel. I Peter Serno. I have a YouTube channel. I have some books on Amazon. I have a have some books on Amazon. I have a have some books on Amazon. I have a website. Dr. Peterso.com. website. Dr. Peterso.com. website. Dr. Peterso.com. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> dude. You're awesome. I appreciate you >> dude. You're awesome. I appreciate you >> dude. You're awesome. I appreciate you very much. very much. very much. >> Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thank >> Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thank >> Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thank you. This was fun. you. This was fun. you. This was fun. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end >> Congratulations. You made it to the end >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been of an episode. Your brain has not been of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet completely destroyed by the internet completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you just yet. Here's another one that you just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. should watch. should watch. Come on.