How Lee Sung Jin Turned His Darkest Moments Into 'BEEF'

Key Takeaway

When you notice yourself treating growth, healing, or a difficult decision like another mountain to conquer, pause and ask: “What would it look like to go around this?” Lee Sung Jin’s lesson is that force and resistance can turn self-improvement into another trap. Today, identify one area where you are straining—an argument, creative block, or habit—and try a softer move: let go of control, seek the shared goal, or take one smaller next step.

Episode Overview

Lee Sung Jin, creator of Netflix’s BEEF, discusses how depression, identity struggles, therapy, and creative collaboration shaped his work and worldview. He and Rich Roll explore the tension between striving and surrender, the power of specific personal storytelling, generational cycles, digital life, and using art to metabolize pain.

Full Transcript

Transcript of How Lee Sung Jin Turned His Darkest Moments Into 'BEEF' from Rich Roll Podcast. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Letting go is actually the main thing. Yes. But we are constantly we forget. Le Jean. Le Jean—the creator of the hit Netflix series "Beef". He is also developing other television products from A24 FX and Lionsgate. You have expanded your diaphragm and decide a lot deeper existential question about what This is what it means to be human. Danny says that in first season, you know, the bottom can be your trampoline, which, you know, just torn from the titles of my life. And I just started viewing everything, for example, aforethought, for example, what is mine?

intention as a friend, as son, you know how writer. I really glad that everything happened as it should happened because you know, What a privilege— to be able to take the paint, and then, you know, create from her art. What would thought the 12-year-old version of you, if only I knew that one day he will write "People "X" and will receive Emmy nominations? It's not like you're from On the first day I thought that you will become a writer and director. No, this is not quite the same trajectory.

Of course not. I have on mind when I was 12, I was just getting ready before the PSAT, you know. Uh, me very, you know, played on violins, you know, for hours every day. Here Why is my neck like this? tilted. Constantly it has to be like this correct. Yes. I had no idea, What's ahead? Um, I I feel very, very blessed. But what remains unchanging, that's what what, uh, you know, at 12 years I also thought over very similar existential questions, and, uh, these the question is still here, uh, on them actually there are no answers.

Uh, and that's why it's like, uh , as if I don't think, that 12-year-old me I would expect that hamster wheel, on which I am spinning, will look like this it looks. But then I think 12- I would say a year old. something like: "Oh, you still, uh, still don't have it answers, huh?" You know, what are your parents think about what you Are you doing? They are very, very now. are proud. Um, I think so. that at first they were very confused. You know, when I finished Pennsylvanian university with degree in economics, I was supposed to become investment banker, and I just said: "Excuse me, I I'm moving to New York.

York without any plan. And, uh, they were rightly worried, and I was in in a terrible state my 20s. I was like tipping grass , which blows around, and, uh, there were many then anxiety and emotion. Well, now I so, so proud. Um, you know, but my parents, like my dad, watched season 2 and wrote to me: "Hey, well done, but, uh, this the final scene was too long." Hey, you should have known that he does to you notes. Yes. He said: "This shot had to be much shorter, and then you should be reduced to this, and then it would be perfectly".

Yes. I thought, "Well, this same show on the platform. It is broadcast, so I can't do it delete and apply these changes, but, you know, they all still my parents, but they are extremely are proud." Yes. True or false? Your dad designed first supercomputer for Samsung? Yes. For Samsung? Yes. He was professor bolshej part of our lives, you know, and was a short period when we returned to Korea, to my elementary school, because he settled on work at Samsung, and he were instructed to develop first supercomputer.

And he left this job, to transport us all back to United States, because was bad then system of government schools where it not reformed. So The teachers beat you. every day, just awful . There was one teacher, who forced you push-ups, and while you were doing push-ups, you were beating You in the face. And, uh, you stayed after work and kept chair over head, and if your elbows they were falling brought a metal ruler and just they beat you hard wrist. It was necessary to straighten up.

So this is it was every day, uh, with third, fourth, fifth grade. And I was returning home from bruises, and just, uh, and uh, and that's why my parents, uh, decided, that this is Samsung's way of doing it not worth it, and they will transport us back to the United States, for which I am very, very grateful. It is obvious that since then Korea significantly reformed its education system, led her to another extremes where teachers are doing now suicides, because students so much of them were mocked.

Uh, theirs is like that overcorrected, but, uh, you know, my Dad loves to complain, that, uh, all the leaders Samsung were people who were under his leadership when he was there. And what? could it be? Yes. Well, yes. I have on I mean two understandings. Firstly, the fact that your father went to such a sacrifice for the sake of your family, you, uh, and yours brother/sister, yours only sister, when he was, you know, in such a prestigious situation, you know, speaks of him character and what he values ​​as important.

Um, and secondly, what you then went your own way way, as if you were on this way. I sure that was It's hard to have a father, which was like this successful, and I don't know, What was the atmosphere like? your house, but, You know, you are mine. seems odd. I I mean you. put in prison, and not It's strange that you are you considering investment banking and all that. But to say, "No, I'm not going to do this. to do", needed some confidence in yourself and self-knowledge, you know, believe in yourself, think: "I'm going to "get off this path." I was honored.

to learn from this university, and I I can imagine how my life will turn out, if I go with this the traditional way, less trampled by. I think, looking back. back, it can seem like that, but at that moment I It certainly didn't seem like it. you know. It was strange that I have never accepted these decisions through self-doubt. At that moment I felt very, hmm, unsure and sadly. I just I remember being in college. , and felt like this severe melancholy, because it wasn't a feeling himself.

And I, um, I think the whole this trip is for me I think there was too partly related to because I am Korean- American immigrant. I born in Korea, moved here, moved there- here, and there is just you, What do you become with the first minute, used to looking around around, copy and imitate, and never not really to feel like yourself, and this becomes the norm. And, uh- uh, in college when I was going to do investment banking, I began to feel that It's not me.

So I just chased after this sadness, which, uh, was also the driving force by force, which, looking back, seems very confident, but at the same time moment it was simple like a stumble. Uh, me had no idea, in which direction I'm moving. I just I knew I was sick. And I think that even when I started writing, the same thing happened at the beginning of my career, I just imitated what was in fashion, my first the job was in "Always" sunny, um, in Philadelphia, in 2008 year.

Hated, and on At that time, comedy was so popular , tough comedy, very UCB, you know, uh, a joke in everyone dialogue, so I tried this simulate. Um, and I'm three. seasons broadcast on the network multi-camera show, which is completely ruined mine mental health, because I thought I was here, and the person who walking through life, that's it- here it is, and it everything is stretched more and more. And I could have predicted that the rubber band will burst, but I I just didn't know when.

AND then, it seems, 13 December 2013, exactly then she seems burst. And, um, that was it. something like mine a major collision with, hmm, you know, suicide, and I ended up in the hospital, and, and, but, you know, how says Danny in the first season, you know, bottom can be yours trampoline, and he says this as if jokingly, but, hmm, or we wrote this jokingly. He says this. seriously, but, hmm, that's very true. I so glad that this finally burst. I I am very grateful that I am all still here.

But, hmm, this It really happened, hmm, necessary clean sheet if I I'm going to take participation in this reality, so why am I here? And I just started rethink everything, for example, regarding intentions, as you said, how did we start this conversation, which is mine intention as a friend, as son, you know how writer, and I started therapy, started truly to explore, you know, self-help, and yes, it all started with that moment, this is truly a journey hero Lee Sang-jeong, I I mean, you lived more and more and no longer in agreement with my true self, adorning this mask, trying fit in and understand your path and how you can act in this world, which I was attracted to you, but it wasn't enough sure or holistic, so that to truly express your true self.

Yes. To think that the only one the way to survive is to dress like all these other people around me. But if you do that's long enough, you will reach a crisis point points. And in yours case this is the bottom there really is incredible leverage for transformation and growth. And this is it, which I also talk a lot about I think. How painful are these moments like you You don't wish them on anyone, but they really are , like the universe, the seas diverge, or The universe puts you to a certain place, and you suddenly you have a certain readiness for these changes and terrible ones things.

And as a result of this work, and it's obvious that you did a lot of things, this is displayed, you know, in your work. It's like you couldn't to write what wrote without being deep introspective a person who has survived hard times, and then came out the other side and understood how it is— to live outside one's own body and own life, and what does it mean to return home. We are all just we are trying to return home to yourself, right? Yes . And when you do that, it's like lightning hits, and from this this arises beautiful work art, which reflects yours journey to become a person who could carry this resonance and this is a message.

Well, Thank you very much. I...I I try...I often I remind myself that What did you just say? because sometimes it's easy to complain about negative things that happened, you know, but then, as you say, I like this: "Oh, wait." I actually glad that everything happened exactly like that, for Do you know what it is? privilege-mother ability to tolerate pain, and then create from this art. But then It also becomes sad, because, you know, I have 16- month-old daughter, and I I look at her, she so perfect, her personality and the essence is simply untouched from the first minutes.

And then I like this: "Oh, God." I want ...everything I want to do in life, this to do everything in my power forces to protect this essence, so that it never been damaged so that it never felt what I felt. And, um, I want that. protect it, and then, like in therapy, you stay angry, because then What do you think I have? strong instinct protect it. for example, like...Like this many people don't... you know, and...uh, for me? But then, how do you You say, like this, to me just need shift your perspective, from which I look at this , which is normal...this It's great how I feel.

this is for your daughter, but then for me, with for some reason, everything took place in a certain sequence, and this allowed me to do what I do, uh, and...this is my way... uh, and...and...uh, you know, trying to find...uh acceptance and thanks for that...uh, but yes, it's hard. It... uh, it's every day fluctuates between these two points. Yes, these people who created for you challenges, there really are your teachers. You know, they gave you the lessons that you it was necessary to learn to become the person you are is today.

And on at some level you could solve look at this through the prism of your choosing this experience in this life, those difficulties due to which you had to go through, so that you can overcome them, become that one the person you are you have to be, so that you became more fully embodied , more self-actualized, so that you can to raise one's own child and deprive its any generational trauma, which you inherited, and so that you can break this pattern. I hope so. Yes. I mean that That's the whole game, You know, I think.

Yes, 100%. It was me. I mean, one of the most enjoyable parts fatherhood was this feeling, oh, wait, as if we we break the cycle. This is really, really steeply, you know. Um, and, uh, yes, I am, and maybe that's why life is as it is simply created for permanent rebirth, and we, you know, uh, we definitely we won't understand this for our one life. Yes. The main thing for you —make sure that the pendulum will not swing too much in another side, otherwise she will inherit all sorts of other problems due to your neurosis, for example, reluctance to be your parents.

You completely like this, and it's inevitable, that's all, what is happening in deep down. As if everything is set up. As if it doesn't matter, How good are yours? intentions of what you are doing. As if there will be some reason why she in 20 years will go to a therapist and will complain about what happened wrong or wrong, and you did, you did a mistake that, like you, you know, you hurt her harm. Yes. I almost I wonder what you think, after talking to such number of people from different opinions.

After all, you think that we actually have freedom of will? Well, neuroscientists They will tell you no. Um, I think ours small brain very difficult to accept that, uh, is a big the probability that we have no freedom will. As if it were simple an unbearable concept. Yes. You know, this is very makes life difficult. Uh, but scientific research, they seem to be saying about this, and I'm trying don't think about it too much. Or, maybe, I think that if you think about it in the widest context, uh, I heard, as you said history, for example, someone asked you about death or identity, and you told a story about the octopus, in whose hand was cut off, and you know that the limbs octopus had many brains.

Yes. Uh, and this ending just comes off and experiences his experience, you know, not realizing that to it was attached bigger brain. Yes. And I think that consciousness works same. You know, I think that in we have this feeling individualization, but actually I think that consciousness, I am everything I am more convinced that there is fundamental for The universe. And we are like that extruded biological forms that is a means for accommodation, to gain experience for a short time period of time before than to be absorbed unity of consciousness.

And if you think about freedom of will or its absence of this context, this not really seems like this appropriate. Yes. It has almost no value. Yes. Yes. Because technically this the hand is not free of will, but she has. Yes. Yes. So this seems to be Zen. Cohen, right? As if we must live like this, as if we have freedom will. Yes. Even if we have it no. Yes. It doesn't matter. We still have to behave accordingly, I think. IN you have a theory about why beef touched on this cultural nerve and why did she become like this successful and popular?

You know, I I think that with age I I realize one thing: the more specific you are you can be about yours experience or expertise people around you, uh , oddly enough, than you are more specific you become, that it is more universal seems spread. And I think that's significant to the extent that we we are going through the same thing. So, uh, then, how are you? you know, you are sitting at home and hear the opinion, which, as you thought, you just thought that you have.

You say: " "Wait, it's me." Um, so I think a little bit exactly like that, and then, with beef, we specifically named this is "youth work" and the shadow" between us, my colleagues and by me. I think that with for some reason, uh, in culturally not so much opportunities for such youth work and shadow in general, therefore, maybe this too part of it, but, uh- uh, I'm not sure, uh, honestly...young things are central, and it just pops out from the screen for me, because I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and you know, I wondered why this show is like that resonant?

It's like you are a forensic scientist a pathologist who performs an autopsy cultures, identity, ethnic capitalism, you know, the gap between generations. AND the specificity with which you construct these characters and their identity with considering their, um, you know, cultural inheritance, or socio- economic status, or generational status, is so specific, that it something like: "Oh, I "I know this person," and in this is what it is versatility. Oh, thank you very much. Yes, we can, we we can just feel this, and this attracts us, and we we feel a connection.

Yes, I think you are. You know what the main thing is? advantage of everything, over than I ever worked, consists in because it is born from cooperation, and I have I mean hours and hours conversations with actors, you know, my first Zoom with Oscar Isaac It seems to have lasted three half an hour, and we just walked in there, as you know, it was very deep and vulnerable, and I think that all this talk is textures that you you can put on plot math, as it were.

As screenwriters, we can love craftsmanship, proper development story line. Uh, but from the point of view of textures that you you impose, it has to feel realistic. And there is, uh, that's why so many I don't have textures. I'm trying to imagine, no me, nor the screenwriters. We let's have honest conversations with our colleagues, and this is real gold. Degree of intentionality going off scale. I listened. interview with you, and you talked about frame composition and, you know, about clean and unusual, about how you are coming, where is there a camera in sequence of that, how is this unfolding emotional arc, why you will film this man and what else is in frame?

Level I awareness, which invested in this, uh, simply, I think, exceeds that average person can imagine, but this works on subconscious level. AT , thank you. Uh, yeah, we, uh- Well, we definitely have a lot. we are talking about intention, because I think that this, uh, that's really the key. THERE ARE -there are, I always said that, you know, I think we, people, we consider ourselves very skilled at hiding their intentions, but this quite frankly, You understand. Therefore, when it comes down to film production, I I think that very It is important to have intention.

Um, otherwise the audience will feel it absence or confusion if you you will not be crystal clear clean. Something has opened up for I am many years old. because when, um, in my work, um, when I I realized that music and the story is actually one and the same exactly. And, uh, it was the article that I I read somewhere that the university fed to your algorithm machine learning hundreds of works classical literature , and artificial intelligence discovered that we we tell stories only six or so in seven ways, and it looks like shapes, such as "lifting, fall, rise, fall, rise, fall", and then I thought: " Wait, it's the same thing, what was he talking about Vonnegut in his graphic "man in whole", which is essentially is a "rise, a person in "theological fall" , and then "rise" again", and then I started thinking: "Well, that's strange, because the modern ear really loves only six or seven chordal sequences".

AND then I thought about that big note, for which we all pursue, you know, top 40 hits in church music. It like, you know, different iterations of sol mi minor CD G, and this is salt–this is status- quo. E minor is fall, and then CDD you, CD, you're climbing back up to the place where started, salt, that literally looks like circle of history, as, you know, Joseph Campbell, like a journey hero. And, uh, this made me to think: "Oh, wait, is this real how to press buttons, to feel in a certain way, and you create these energetic forms, on which for some reason our brain reacts." AND for some reason, I I think that collectively we seem to fell in love with this one, you know, this form.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I am not I know if it makes me to feel, uh, better or worse in relation to humanity. This is something on like, oh, we're very primitive creatures, which respond to irritants very in a specific way. If you press this button, we Let's react like this. Yes. What, in my opinion, also thematically corresponds to the series, because there are many here questions like " why these characters behave badly", but they behave bad because traumatic experience early childhood or system forces, which force them to behave in a certain way in a way.

If you were this person and lived their lives, you would do exactly that What are they doing? Yes. That's right. You know, just like we unanimously react to a certain sequence chords. Yes. I have on I mean, that's exactly how it is. it is difficult to to be born in the body, that is that we are suddenly without consent we find ourselves in this, and then we you separately, and we are taught to believe that our subjective lens and this inner voice is actually we, and it's so hard to see something outside of oneself, and, as you say these systemic forces almost they root you in you themselves, because suddenly you don't have necessary resources.

You feel a lack. Then you think: " Okay, I need to gather, to gather, to support your own" I ". And the more you focused on themselves and the less you are capable to have empathy, to think: wait, if I were there this person, I would do the same. Hmm, that's why, I think we we tell stories . And I think we we've been doing this ever since, as they were in the cave near hearths. We we tell stories to try to escape from this the stiffness of one's own "self" ".

You know, it is deeply spiritual a work wrapped in very tasty, easily digestible pop culture taste, Do you understand? You you work very hard at a deep level with topics, you know, and you very openly signal about it in ends with the help of samsaras and mandelolas etc; but these topics valid for the whole season. And this much more mature, you know, kind of development after the first season. You expanded their diaphragm and decide a lot deeper existential question about what This is what it means to be human.

Uh, I-I-I we definitely wanted, you know, to finish school, as it were. First the season seems rethought many things from my of the past, you know. Um, uh, like Danny's character in the first season, uh, like his struggle with mental health, and you know, the first The season starts with what he returns Hibachi girls, who he bought it so that, uh, kill yourself, what happened, you know, ripped from the titles of my life, something that I once did. And therefore I feel that the first The season is very similar to old section.

And, uh, You know, I'm so glad that you, you, you felt this shift, because it was felt that in in the second season we wanted more to find out about what happening now, huh , for many of my peers and for me , in order for me to was over 40, and I'm starting to fight against time, and I realize: " Wait, I'm getting up. the generation that was ahead of me, and I not even realized that this is happening." And, hm, so I think that because it was more like the present, and the first senior season, it felt like film production and aesthetics need some changes.

First season deliberately surrendered very dirty and untidy, and therefore all these falling needles similar to 90s grunge, because it seems that spiritual these characters were in trapped in that period of time. Yes. And while the second the season wanted to become more picturesque, more lush, you know, This is a season about love. So even music very emotional, and in it there are these, you know, thick ones synthesizers that Phineas wrote. And, hm, you know, this felt much more like the present, what do you think? you know, at least for me when you reach middle-aged, you start to feel new things.

And there a lot of melancholy and sadness, I think, um, like , like when you lose yourself, you know, during creating a show, um, You know, I unexpectedly lost one of their dogs and, um, you, and then I put it on the show, and, uh- uh, so there are a lot the sadness that we wanted to convey. What brought me here, yes this is what I'm friends with David Cho, uh, and that one the fact that events took place in first season" Calabasas. Um, and I became obsessed places where you filmed.

Actually, house, house Stephen Young, I am like this, I think I know where this one is. house. I am like this, I am think i know for sure Where is this house? And I once rode on a bike, and, uh, I found this photo. today. Here it is. Yes, that's true. Oh, God my. And I took this photo for "Let's see" . Wait. Uh, 25 June 2023. Oh, no problem. Wow. Therefore, You came very early. No, I was obsessed. series. No, but the house simply wonderful.

He is located in about a minute walking distance from my house. So, just seeing weaknesses of people who live in Calabasas, transferred to the screen, and then in the second season, I spend time in Ohio, I don't monotonous, but in I have friends in Ohio, I go up there and just thinking, "oh god You seem to be acting in my world, you know, read my thoughts...but" exactly these deeper themes of me truly captured. I have on meaning that all this, you know, comes from Ramdoss, Alan Watts and Esther, Mr.

P.L., they, it's like mine landmarks, you know, and I spent a lot of time, thinking about their work. And I know, because you it was said that "To be "here and now"—your favorite book. It Favorite book? It truth? I mean, yours. Instagram nickname—" be here now, later", "anyway" here later", "be here later", "okay, yes, because it's like: yes, You should be here on time. from time to time on Instagram , later, but yeah, honestly, I mean, you, uh, don't just want to to cheer yourself up, because I'm here, but, uh, I have I mean, yours.

the podcast has extremely large impact on my mental health health and how I I am working on these topics. I I mean, you introduced me through his guest, because of so many people, who you communicate with , and even yours your own way, and how you, uh, about transformation and about to take off the mask and to investigate what actually happens with life. Uh, me absorbed so much your words and words your guests, what is this permeates my work , you know. This is great. I appreciate it.

Yes. But now that I do I know, I'm jealous that, uh, in the second season podcast was not me, but Huberman. But actually much funnier that it was Andrew. Well, I mean that you are not that much you're talking about dopamine, if not. I definitely don't. Hmm, it was very, very ridiculously. Oh, thank you. Hmm, what is this? talks about how you thinking about movement self-optimization and podcast landscape, for example, about mental health? Because it is very changed, you know? Well, I'm the beneficiary. this media format, you know, from what he became what he is became, but is in it also many things, which I am called a lot of anxiety.

Yes, that's definitely very changed. I have on I mean, I think, exactly so it was enough fun, you know, to joke about it during the show. Uh, but at the same time not reject it, because, honestly, I'm Josh. For example, I love, uh- uh, sitting alone in yours, you know, part of the house and listen, uh, you know, you and Hubman and I I am constantly trying to work on oneself, but then, no matter what showed no the fruits of this labor, uh , or use this, to check reality, how are you you say, you know, for example, when Josh says: "I am listening some kind of devil podcast, but he has clearly a crisis that he must decide." That's right.

I think that it's like everything we do We act like people. It begins in earnest , and there's a big, uh- uh, um, true. But then, but then, as would, it mutates; as if, then intervenes everything else. Then, like, uh- Well, then there's commerce, and people are so fast hydronically adapt, that suddenly it becomes a status -quo. And then you you are looking for, you get used to rhythm: "Okay, I I'm going to listen. my podcast, but I I will remain the same. ". And then suddenly that, which introduced changes, it becomes that makes you stagnate, and then you need a new thing .

And again, I I think that's why we continue to tell the same stories same stories near hearths. As if we we tell each other the same stories one alone all the time. And I I think it's because We are so stupid. As if we we hear the story, we deeply moved and we think: "I'm going to change, starting from this moment on." AND then we don't do this we do, and then we has to to tell the same stories same stories again and again. Uh, and that's why I I think that the movement self-help, although he is so dear to me helped, um, he goes through that the very rethinking, as well as every movement, that is growth, then stagnation, and then capitalism, you know, will dig in its claws, and then he has adapt and change, and I I think that's it.

will happen. Yes. I mean that the main message that I receive from the other season, consists of because changes, evolution, growth– as if these things were possible, and they are always in our hands. We just we get in our way. Yes. And because of that we just Let's play out these cycles, Do you understand? We fade to a certain fate, because we are stuck in a certain way, you know, and yours samsara-mandola really illustrates this, as if to break out freedom is possible. It it's just very difficult, and most of us just can't do it to do, you know, in basically.

Yes. I mean, I definitely not. And, uh, by chance, I, I was driving to the Timberwolves game, and I, uh, sat next to Jay Shetty, uh, also in this world, and we instantly became like close friends and started discussing show themes. And he said something interesting about that you know, uh, what he is found out, uh, you know, studying something on like in India and, uh, Vada texts, and that, you know when it's time reaches the mountains, there are actually mountains, uh, in the east, to which forbidden rise.

Climb them illegal because spiritually, uh, it's something like what look down on, as if you should climb them and so reach them, and actually they are just bypass them, What so wonderful for me, and my brain is so trained to climb to the mountains, so even the act of leaving samsara -it's like a mountain, which I I want to achieve. And that's why I I think the second one season, at least for me, and you know, I...I I'm talking about it here. more openly, probably than me...me I try to be more vague in other interviews, so What do I want to leave behind?

series open to interpretations. But You know, I know that you This is really deep. you understand, but for I have this...feeling... the feeling that I stuck in some trap, sometimes it can to be so suffocating, what is this truly the root of mine mental health problems health. I feel that this thing is a prison, and I just want to break out. And before me I was breaking down, I wanted to to break out a lot, you know , detrimentally through self-mutilation. AND now it's almost the opposite side of that same medals when it feels like a mountain, where I think: okay, if I work on it myself if I do this, if I do that, then: okay, I have to climb this mountain and break out.

And the second the season was for me an attempt to learn take it as it is ok simple to go around the mountain It not only normal, this is actually a solution, a kind of approach to what I'm going to do to achieve, you know, my mental health— this application problematic aspect yourself to the problem. Do you understand what I mean? Instead of just let go and don't approach this as if it were a goal, which is needed to achieve, you are more likely to everything, start living in decisive.

It's so illogical, but That's right. You know , Stephen Young had quote by Ursula Ka Jin , which became big the north star for beef, where is it says that resist for some reason—this support this, and so that to let go— this is really the main thing. Yes. But we are constantly we forget. Yes. My wife always says if you fight against something, even from good reasons, for example, you activist or, you know, you all apply efforts to resolve problems, you know, that you have a reason, as if you still are you fighting?

Yes. You know, and this is yours kind of pretzel in the brain all of this. Mystery . Well, and I think that's, uh -eh, Alan Watts a lot speaks about it with this concept wooi of h how are you, how are you feel where is located natural impulse in life, and as if use it against yourself? As and in activism, you you can fight against this, this is usually causes more friction, but how about you actually can like judo, uh, what you are facing ? And I'm trying.

apply this, uh, just, you know, in in writing and in, you know, in my cooperation, you know, often, when with networks, you can to get into confrontation, and they They say: "Don't take it." "script", and then suddenly you just you say: "Okay, I "I stuck to it," and it never didn't work. Usually this is ends with that you will eventually lose, because they are ultimately network, or you you fall into this a strange compromise, who doesn't like neither side. Uh, but I think you you can learn judo, where, uh, are you?

you can take theirs passionate about notes and that, why do they do this, and try use this on your benefit and say: "Well, I'm in on the same team as you ". I want the same thing. you want too, but here, Like, come here. Let me show you another one a way to achieve this, and let's talk about this together. And suddenly they actually they do exactly what you wanted Just this required a little from a different perspective. Right. Right. Right. Element already It takes a long time.

participation in this show, but it was very interesting to watch them are expanding. First in sparkling banks, and now into something brand new - lemonade with ice that is now the latest novelty and my favorite morning drink in home gym . And what I noticed, including this in your daily routine, yes this is a decrease coffee consumption. I I admit that I drink it. more often than necessary, because coffee is enough muffles well a signal that my the body is tired. But in reality maintains energy on basic level hydration, replenishment electrolytes.

AND practicing it more consistently with Element, I discovered a better and more stable level energy during training, of course, but also during all day long. Element is electrolyte formula , which has everything you need need, and nothing, what you don't need. Without additives and sugar. And their new iced tea with lemonade based on the same electrolytic formula. Plus 50 mg natural caffeine with tea together with elenin and polyphenol. So he feels more soft, something more strategic than typical drinks from caffeine, what for can be reached when do you want to stay cheerful.

So try it. Try it new iced tea with lemonade from Element. Get it free packaging from 8 samples most popular Element drink flavors with any purchase on drinklement.com/richroll. In my work is professional risk, namely that everyone wants to send I have my new-fashioned one. wellness gadget. 98% 99% of which are just end up in a drawer after one using. By ironically, the funniest thing that ever passed this control, is aluminum mask for face I Restore. Yes, it is. science fiction the face of a robot that glows.

Yes, in mine Families have their own opinions. But red therapy surprisingly light reliable, and confirmed increasing number evidence. Its recommend dermatologists, he has 360 LEDs medical grade, which about twice as much more than in most masks. He emits red and infrared light for collagen and combating aging, as well as blue light for fight against shortcomings and rashes. And this one of the first masks, which can radiate all three wavelengths simultaneously. They also produced by I Restore Elite, which you see here. It their most modern system for growth hair.

300 lasers, 200 LEDs. Same philosophy: light therapy, quiet work while you Live your life. Support for thicker and healthier hair for only 3 months. Now you you can combine Elite and an aluminum mask together for the best price. All this reinforced 12- one-month warranty refund. Just go to irestore.com and use the code Rich Roll. This is Richoll on irestore.com. Please, support our show and tell them that we sent to you. Give it to your hair and skin the update they deserve that you could feel confidently and cheerfully.

I want to know about your career path, but you mentioned your way in the field mental health, and I want to start from there. You are enough. spoke frankly about his struggle with depression and that as your personal life experience falls into stories about beef. For example, when did it start for you and how you understand, What caused this? You know, I mean, that I go through every week therapy and, you know, still I'm trying all this. untangle, but, uh, I I think it started. very early Uh, I-I I remember somewhere in I am in sixth grade.

started simply to absorb K.S. Lewis. Uh, because I wanted to. understand this, and, um, and, I think it's partly that. is due to the fact that, uh- Well, you know, I-I have a lot moved. I moved every 3-4 years of my life, and I I love my people very much. parents. And, uh, you know, they are so many done to give us better life, but also, you know, we were constantly on the move. And that's all, you know, I think, that partly this is due to the fact that they were chasing a feeling of happiness that always disappeared, and then they they try everything recycle every 3-4 years.

and therefore the house is never felt for me a safe place. Um, oh, and again, I I know that my parents can watch this, that's why I love them, and they created safety for many ways, but, uh, with for various reasons, I I think that emotionally I, Well, there was no house. safe. There is one the line that Ali Wong says at the end of the first season where she says, that there, where nowhere is do you feel like at home, uh, you just You close yourself in.

AND it started very, very early. And, uh, me too I think that when I was a Korean child, I moved The Midwest, not having a feeling of home with family, and you don't felt at home in society, then you felt really lonely. I just I remember how in such a at a young age I really understood loneliness, and, uh, then I think that solitude felt like something, what needs to be decided, like a mountain, where am I I need it. need to fill in her this.

I need find a connection like this in a way. I need, uh, dive into, uh, music, or, you know, also, I think, for many people of my was exactly that age then the internet was invented, uh-huh. And I think that for many boys my age then this it was as if by accident access to porn, you know. And then , then it became something that you, uh, You're scratching an itch, eh. So I was always looking, tried to find these crutches, which eventually were destroyed, and that's all more depressing me, because on the other hand from them always was emptiness.

Well, I think so. in the end for all of us will have to accept with the fact that, I have I mean, I have a lot What did you write in the finale? the first season that I I think the world is like this, what it is because we just a continuation God, like, and I say about God in free in a sense, as if we were branches trees, and this tree— That's all. So it is lonely. Hmm. As if God is alone in nothingness, and we just we decide ourselves through this eternal process.

And I I think we all have to accept that the fact that we are alone. And, um, but we created all this as an illusion, so to feel unwell lonely. But then do you understand what this is "everyone, you know this word," Leela, divine play ". This is a play. She ends, and then you have to to accept that the fact that it's just you. We act in our Maya. And just like music and the structure of the story working in this method of takeoffs and falls, we create these identities, archetypal identity, so that help us understand who we are and Where are we?

AND it's just a story and an illusion that, in our opinion, opinion, makes us to feel more related, but actually becomes obstacle. And you someone who has this insightful ability deconstruct gap between generations, and you do it explicitly in second season with the difference between millennials and generation Z, but this locks when you you say that it doesn't really have value. As if we all we all just become their parents and we do the same. You can you be under this an illusion for a while, and then, the older you become, you understand that actually not as different as we are we think.

Yes. Yes. That's why the finale was called "he" will remain so, and you will obey, which is based on Marian quotes Woodland, which literally starts with "old" mother, old father, you lured us here trap", and yes, that's it the feeling that, as you said, it doesn't have to the meaning of which four seasons will come for you. I like to talk to you about the final, because you the first person who, you know, clearly gets everything we record. But we also eventually wanted to leave this final shot, uh, truly open and clean cloth for viewer, because I don't I know this, I know, if I watched this in in my 20s, I wouldn't talked about it like this.

Em , I would probably say about this rather than about negative ending, which I noticed among their peers, representatives Generation Z when they watching the show, they have completely different conclusion than when My people are watching him, you know, friends over 40. And I I think that, you know, baby boomers who watching the show, too they endure something else. AND me, and I think that beauty Samsara consists of because when you you walk around the mountain, every time you you walk around, you you feel and think something else.

Yes. Far from it to demand from artist's explanation his work. I don't want to to put you in such a situation situation, but I I think you are like walked along a tight rope, having finished it himself yes, because you don't want to leave the audience with this cynical feelings about their fate. Um, you too did a great job with in order to pull in thread in a needle, leaving us some hope. But I really I think so, interpretation depends on who is watching, and this will depend on your fate in life, yours unique life experience and your age.

So this is interesting combination timeless, for example, if you come back and watch season 2, you know, in 101 years, 15 years, you will interpret its different, so that you grew up in another, you know, period your life, season your life, but he also finally online. You know, you have is this ability to- to truly understand youth culture and their connection with the internet very in an authentic way, who does not give up stuck with boomers, Do you understand? It's like you informed in this way, which, I think, is another one the reason why viewers react to this, so that it is simple feels like this real.

Oh, thank you. I think that, unfortunately, this is related with the fact that I finally online, and, uh, me I need it. need to stop. I...I...I researched about 6 months, and I don't I know if you found it. something that makes me I really don't want to anymore. have your own phone. And there is all these new gadgets, where can you keep phone in another room, and it's just a brick from which you can just get access to Spotify and things like that. But then I just don't found the right one things, and then finally- Finally bought my own phone, and the following, What I remember is that what do I read every day negative comment about the show that exists in Internet, and anyway...

Oh, I liked it. do it yesterday. Oh, you did? Yes. It became almost daily routine, and I need... need to stop. But, uh, I think you You know what, then I I'm trying to take this one. spirit and embody it in work, and then, I hope other people , which are finally online, they will understand me. Yes. But, uh, yes, I I hope that in next project, which I perform, I I will achieve this goal- be less online, and it is felt in work. Yes. It's almost like new.

hierarchy of needs Oil that takes into account our relationship with digital world. AT, My God. Have you seen that documentary Adam Curtis film about hypernormalization? I am not. Yes. I think he is the most brilliant documentary filmmaker of all currently alive. And, uh, if you haven't seen, uh, "Century personality ", then this you just like it. He literally passes from the pre-World War II to this day and shows how, uh, we actually created this century of personality . Uh, and it all comes down to to three people who are started.

Uh, and he removed another documentary , it seems, in 2016 under the name " Hypernormalization ", which is just right predicted that the internet, uh, did with us. Uh, and yet, as we already I said earlier, I'm looking at him, me moves, and then I I pick up the phone and Let's go to Reddit. Where do you think? is the point supports between, uh, understanding and change behavior? Oh, I was hoping you would. Tell me. Yes. Well, I mean, this is the question I am asking to everyone, because it, you know, embarrassing.

You know, people change when they are ready change when they visits a certain readiness, and pain there is always obvious motivator. But usually for this need something, depending on which one part of your life tough and how much she is tough. I I think that the more catastrophic event, the more you are capable change the template. Hmm, but it's hard because, I think with age, hmm, you know, especially if you have privileges, you you start creating a life in which there is no none of these earthquakes.

You know, josh's monologue in the 6th the episode after that, how he played "Buffalo", where he talks about his inability change, you know, I just wrote this for, you know, 2 minutes. It just broke out of me. Um, uh, because I -I-I really feel it, that sometimes, uh, I don't I know when it comes. turning point, but at 20-30 years old you you constantly feel:" Oh, I'm going to work on this. to work. I I'm going to change, huh -uh, I-I feel it, but it's not like that yet big problem, and I I'm going to work.

over this tomorrow. "A then you blink, and This is what you become. you are, and suddenly do you feel that you you can't at all to change. And this window so fast closes, at least from mine experience. And, uh, I-I-I- I really would like to, so that I like it, that Josh gives this advice Austin, and then Austin applies it to something like that small, for example, Have you ever found- or someone else attractive when were with him, but I I remember when I was older.

people gave me this advice when I was 20, and I did it noticed. But then you still can't. Hmm. You know, and I think that that's why so many religions. I think that people who started these Abrahamic religions, literally just us who is listening to this podcast, but, for example, in the desert, having eaten a little psychotropic, type, you know, the root. AND then they think about this, and their decision was like this: "Well, here it is why should you "to pray every day." Here why do you need it such a daily routine.

We just let's write a bunch of rules, because strict rules are needed rules to have able to compensate everything we are talking about we are talking. And then I I think that in modern in life we, you know, went to Korean churches as they grew, and, You know, I'm not like that anymore. I go often. Uh, we lost something on like what we need a new set modern rules, and, I I think that's why podcasts self-help became such popularity. Yes, secular religion. Yes . You know, this obsession self-optimization, but she will play along hyperindividual, you know, something about kind of priority individual "I" above all else, that loses sight of the best thing we are taught religious traditions, and exactly what it's about unity.

About unity. Yes. Hmm, but we, you know, we act within our identities and our illusion. AND, You know, you're a storyteller. I I mean, my the theory is that that there is nothing more powerful than well told history. Uh, and we are very vulnerable to these stories, and we we create stories about who we are. As version of what we, in we have this feeling that I am this person. I I do these things. This is what who I am. I can't to do this, and I I can do this.

It just a story. We could rewrite this history at any time, but we don't we do. We are shopping. on this, we believe in this, and, um, we're stuck in these models behaviors that are simply are losing this story again and again, and again , and we become, we, by in essence, we imprison ourselves through the story. Yes. I was thinking about it. the other day, um, you know, about those forms that we are talking about talked. When you think about old shamanic culture, eh, or even, you know, listening to music Tibetan monks, eh , there is no form.

They, they just playing on one note, Do you understand? It's simple. all the time, um, and, and stories that they told, were not similar to ups and downs fall. It was just a story approximately hours, Do you understand? And, you know, this is a kind of mirror, how are you you say it's almost recursive loop feedback, in where we are stuck, where, again, we cycles , we, we are trying catch up with changes. So, we, the mirrors stories, we change, and we have the status quo, which rises, falls, rises, and then we become dependent on this, and then, and then suddenly we just we see how rises, falls, rises, then we really rises, falls, rises, and then , and I would like to reach points where the narrative this will be so difficult, how is it working now streaming, but I would wanted to get to the point, where narrative, like vampirism, you know, it's something like that, uh, you know, did Link Ladder in in his early works, he just vampirized.

There is no structure for lazy person. Yes. Yes. I have on mind, best, you know. Um, but with for some reason we, we, we collectively haven't yet there. But I have to meant, perhaps, for someone needs this who does this, and tries to stimulate these changes in culture, but it it's hard, you know how director. I'm like, "Oh, I "I would like to remove the lazy person" . But then you can't. Yes. But then Marvel knocking on your door and says: "Uh, you Are you interested in the X-Men?

And then you're 55 years old, and you know, you live broad life and you think: "Why should I to risk this in order to make your own version Slacker? Oh, absolutely. I have on meaning that this is exactly what happened. I...I worked on "Thunderbolts" » without subtitles for his friend Jake Schreier, with whom I I work a lot. And I I remember what you said. to their representatives and to all my friends: " Uh, just remind me. me that I am no longer I'm going to star in blockbusters." Uh, no knocking, Marvel .

And then the next thing you know, that's what they're like, "Hey, we have there are X-Men." I am like this: " I will do it. But Jake before that involved, you understand? Is he a director? He is a director. Yes. That is, I mean, I love working with Jake, but also, you know, if Jake starred in, you know, another in one "Avenger", I probably wouldn't have done it this, but these are People X. I grew up on" X-Men. This is mine. most favorite thing Uh, for example, we are Dad woke up every Saturday morning and watched together animated series.

Uh, that's why I really It's hard to refuse because then I think about myself in childhood, as if I went back in time and told this, Yes? Well, something about like this. Yes, we suggested this. True to my artistic opinion, there is a certain arrogance in that to say, "No, I I'm not doing this because I need to make a lazy person ". Yes. Yes. Yes. That's right. Hmm, you probably don't you can do a lot to say about X-Men , but can you tell me on which cycle stage creating this movie you Are you there?

Uh, yes. I have on mind you, we are working over the draft. We are from Joanna Callo, who also often cooperates with us. She is a co-director. and co-director" Bear. there are many on the internet information about casting, and we, you know, This is true. Marvel now casting and, well, Kevin, Jake and Lou, well, they read ours draft. I think they very excited. We just rewriting this draft. And, well, what I like it in Kevin Feige and I I'm just fascinated. more and more of them, so it is what it is the reason why he has been running Marvel for so long.

IN his incredible instincts and real childish, well, joy in work. It really a game when you Are you with him in one room. And this was really surprisingly cheerful part of this. I I was a little afraid. return to the world blockbusters, but, well, I am not that much communicated with Kevin over" Lightning, "but over" He takes the X-Men participation in each meetings, at each script sessions. And, hm, achieving it so much joy contagious, that the opportunity to do this and remember that what I can do this.

play at the end of the day, was for me pleasant, you know, displacement prospects. Well, this is interesting moment for Marvel. Uh, you know, we have now so epic, uh, wait a minute original IP, uh. Uh, that's fantastic. You know, you just don't you can get Odyssey and IMAX ticket for several weeks. Uh, this is really exciting, fun and cool. And we we also see the growing up of these young cinematographers, e- uh, you know, "Rooms" and "Obsession", as if everything is changing now in good and great condition interesting direction.

But this changes audience attitude to an outdated IP, as in because of what Marvel was into so good AND now, you know, now this, you know, this is a little otherwise, I think that The stakes are quite high. very high, hmm, and maybe that's it so Kevin Feige appears on all meetings, uh, or Do you feel this? pressure, as if they need a victory? Kevin is very self-conscious, and, uh, he is definitely will joke about it reason. Uh, but, uh, I think that's why he so supportive big changes from X-Men, and, uh, I didn't think so first about the plot, and about a character that, you know, enough obviously.

Well, you know, this is like writing 101-this, of course, first about the character. But I I think that with success, as we said, everyone the movement begins Seriously, how is that? made Marvel, and then it stagnates, and then comes capitalism, and then he must develop, and I think Marvel is developing. Uh, you know, I saw the early one version of Spider-Man a brand new day, and This is fantastic. It really very good. As if Destin had knocked out him from the field, so I I think that what is happening here cycle turn.

Yes. Well, it's gigantic. conglomerate corporation, you know, and, like any other ripening of any companies in a certain moment, it experiences defeat, if not will destroy itself, you know, but you can, you can as if to bend under the weight of your capital S. Yes. You know, and it's like the life cycle of each a large company. Yes. I think they are were very intelligent. They are too fast and too scaled, on in my opinion, with everyone these TV shows and things like that. And I I think Kevin is very acted wisely, okay, let's go, you know, let's filter out some noise and let's get back to what we are very good at good.

I am just alone. small gear in this gigantic process, and I think that, uh, Joanne and I just we are trying to behave properly with these characters and add a little depth. Uh, there are many. vendagram, I think, with "er, season 2" Beef "from above" bird's eye view, you know. Uh, that's why I I think, uh, I hope. , the audience will feel it. This episode sponsored by BetterHelp, so I'm crossing myself now legs and lean back back to the pose therapist. BetterHelp interviewed several thousand Americans of this year, and shockingly, 85% said that receiving support is wise, but 74% believe that society still quietly does not refuse this.

This gap just crazy. We we believe in the importance receiving help, at the same time not wanting to look for her. Well, you don't need to wait crisis to talk about with someone. Therapy it could be simple a place where you can stop and to work out what accumulated, before than it will be uncontrollable. And BetterHelp does all this extremely simple thanks to the light lifting. You just answer the a few questions, they are engaged in selection, and you are connected to fully licensed a therapist who works according to strict code of conduct.

If you don't fit, you can change therapist anytime. And with over 30,000 therapists–this many, they served over 6 millions of people. It even more. From with an average score of 4.9 out of five based on more than 1.7 million reviews, the point is not to to allow stigma to get in the way support. Get started therapy with BetterHelp. Register and get a 10% discount on betterhelp.comroll. It betterhp.com/richroll. This episode presented you Squarespace. Create Something online is one thing. To force people actually find it– this is completely different.

And exactly most people here They brake quietly. You create a thing, teach it, and then crickets. Well, right here Squarespace really deserves its price. It universal platform for creating your the site and its development, because in it has all built-in SEO tools. Meta descriptions, automatically generated map site, all behind the scenes works so that when someone is looking for what you are looking for do, Internet actually delivers it to your door. You don't need to none of this understand. It's simple. works. And as soon as people start come, you can do something about it.

If you create content, courses, videos, textbooks and membership, Squarespace allows you post this for paywall and to receive a permanent income. Install price, choose disposable or subscription. Done. Your expertise becomes something that pays off Thank you for repeating. Make sure you found, and then get paid for it what do you know. Not a bad combination. Visit us at squarespace.com/richroll for free trial versions. And when will you be? ready to launch, use the code richoll offers to save 10% on your first website buyers or domain. One of the things, which I like at Rivian, this is how they fill their cars like this number of amazing highly productive technologies, but always make sure that it feels like second nature, that's it keeps this human approach.

AND a great example can be Haptic wheels on the new R2. Both the sides of the steering wheel are a dial that can be rotate, press and pull to set up the following things like air conditioning or switching the next song. AND they have it incredibly pleasant tactile sensation, because you really are press the button and rotate the mechanical helm. Recently I was able to control R2 with R.J. Skring, founder and CEO , shared ideas that are behind this cool and unique function. They have these really good tactile wheels on the steering wheel, which create a mechanical feeling.

And all this software provision, that is tactile feedback connection. And you do you feel that actually there is none no fasteners. It's all software. software. So tell me about your thoughts, because because technology shape this experience, related only to screen, there's something in to a person who aspires so tactile control. Yes. And that was part of it. logic, and it was made from reviews, which we got in N1, this desire to have more mechanical touch points, as well as possibility not use multi-sensory a screen for everything.

Hmm. And therefore, having ability to manage heating system, ventilation and air conditioning air from this side, entertainment on the other side , you also have modes driving. In this cars yes many functions. You you can learn about all of them, view the rest of our conversation and even order demonstration check in on stories. Richroll. I thinking about Ashley and Austin and dynamics their relationship, because it happens like this a lot of things that related to relationships. New love, mature love, old love. What do they mean?

relationship? What definition of love for different people on at different stages their lives? And there are many on Reddit are talking about Ashley's character. It's like lightning rod for people. And I think that this also a look at someone generational perspective. Depending from age, you will have some opinion on this character. Absolutely. And what causes it? bad behavior or what causes sympathy for how she behaves. Yes, we talked a lot about this when they wrote, and even during installation, because most people online who they mention the show, it's older millennials generation X or older, and they have very specific vision of how they see these characters.

But then I often had to to remind everyone that we intentionally we're creating this show so that, you know, generation Z little different experience viewing than millennials, and vice versa. But I was surprised by that. , as far as, um, Ashley similar to the one on which you were. Eh, but you know, I think if to be frank, at least for me, I I don't want to speak for all, but there are so many aspects of Ashley that were in my psyche, whether in the past or now, you know, me too I think that perhaps that's why it is so movingly.

It's simple. as if the most frankly looks like, hmm, the part of me that I don't like it. Mom, hmm, and then you see this, and then you have to defend yourself as a spectator, because you You think it's not me, and I I just hate her, you know. Um, but I think that to be honest, her behavior causes irritation , because it has a certain truth. Yes. Is there something you have that you are dissatisfied, and that displayed in this character. If you are divided into parts or deny your own behavior, this is typical of you .

When I look at her, I see my mother , you know, this is a person for me, and it's very it is clearly understood that in her both have problems with affection. She avoids, you know, or she has an anxiety favor, and he avoids, you know, and of course they together, you know. It's like archetype, right? AND yes, they behave like this. This is my mother and my father, and this is me It's frustrating because it makes me want it again to experience this dynamics, Do you understand?

Yes, she definitely has. alarming favor. And me too It would be interesting if Netflix had the following data, like, uh, you know, this one percentage of viewers, who avoid, believes Ashley is disgusting, You know, I'm curious, if you are anxious affection, are you more prone to correlate with Ashley, is she yours? Do you like it less? But I think that if you person with anxiety attachment, then you You will sympathize with her. You you will understand why she That's how it behaves. I hope so. I am both experienced a trauma that made them like that.

It as if you can to sympathize with that made them so behave, regardless of whether Do you disagree with their behavior or No. That's why we wrote its background as she was. In many ways she was formed under influence, you know, Kaylee's backstory Spanish, uh, you know, uh- er, not face to face, but you know, this whole series discussions led to this background someone who, uh, her, you know, Ashley's moms don't was nearby. For example , her mom and dad divorced when they were small, and then, uh, dad created a new family, and Mom is simply gone.

near. And then you have, uh, you know, I I'm sure that for Ashley in childhood her parents divorced, her Dad, there's a new one. family, so then it has be this need, type: "I still want to be part of the family ", type: "I need people, please, me are they needed Do they still love me? " I, I imagine that this started at a young age age, and therefore, uh, you know, we we are trying to show , not to tell, in our show about, you know, we have this prehistory.

There is this one hallucinatory moment, nightmare in hospitals with telephone Mom's call when we are trying to leave some breadcrumbs, so that the audience, I hope you had sympathy for that why she is the way she is. But there seems to be a certain , uh, part viewers, which rejects this prehistory, and she was rejected by people, who were supposed to love and take care of her. Uh, and that's why she will do everything possible, to create stability and a sense of connection, and everything that threatens this, there is existential a threat to her life , so it will be react to this roughly.

Yes. That's right. And I I think that's why she so strong for these relationships. Ultimately, the matter not even in Austin. She just can't. It is simply a means for this. That's right. She, I I think it can't. to experience emotionally the grief of losing this support, which replaced initial pain. AND for Austin, who, as you know, avoids, uh, I think when he is faced with the fact that for example: "Oh, I'll go catch up with Yununis ", which is also now avoids me. This is not pleasant for avoidant person, because she really secretly like this one pursuit of the disturbing a person who is coming on her because she avoids.

She can to be avoidant. Then suddenly the one who avoids, encounters others who avoid, and then, I think, in finals for him has to to reckon with...as if I I don't think this person really loves me reciprocity. Hmm, I don't. I love Ashley, but she at least reliable in in the sense that I can rely on her, that she will be anxious tied to me, no matter what. So he does, you know, safe, you probably know a timid thing in some aspects. I... This is Charles Melton.

I I think that, embodying Austin, he is considering the ending as brave in in a sense, almost just like that his character realized that he should be adults, and to have family and career, and you know, he really is makes a mature choice, to become an adult. THERE ARE- uh, you know, this is one of views on this. Uh, but I think that for me at that moment in Austin taxi like returns to an acquaintance. It's a tragic choice, huh... uh, because he does him to some extent self-awareness, as if he understands why he makes this decision and still accepts it.

Um, but this archetype also rationalizes this, saying, well, you know, as if they are sacrificing yourself for this another person, and in there is something to this beautiful. And this truth. Yes. I was curious, when Austin, the character Charles Melton, you know, he's so good plays something close, but a nice guy, like you just want to so that he wins. You are you rooting for him, but you know, he just like that, you know, he just doesn't have it deal with the full log all the time.

But then when it comes to reaches Ashley's diagnosis, he just right shows as if he himself, You know, young. And I I think it's somehow incompatible with this the character you created. But then I I think, well, he always goes on Reddit and gets answers. He just remembers as if it the idea that he just went there and found I quoted this thing. its? Yes, we are trying. to go peculiar " breadcrumbs, still from the first episode someone, who, like you You say everyone reads. smart things on Reddit.

AND he also mentions something like self-help and always loves advice. So, you know, again, we are trying to write what we know and we feel plausible in real life. I That's exactly what I do. Yes many writers in the room they do this, as if we were discussing something in the room writers, and someone says: "Oh, hello, I read this, blah blah blah blah blah blah." I I say, "You read this. Did you see the post on Instagram? » And they answer : "I saw the post." And I I say: "Do you have anything?" What else do you want?

add to this, is this the end of your knowledge? AND I think that this is concerns us all now, because we have very superficial attitude towards, you know, number of things about self-help, which We are being attacked. And therefore, I think that Austin did it all season. And he probably is conversations with your mom and started on Reddit understand your own feelings for Ashley. Hmm, but then, being a person who avoids, he did not express this, and ultimately, in the ending is simple spills out. You know, I, I, I definitely did this too when, you know, me, me, me, of course, not a psychologist but when I see article, I think, "Oh, this a person who is mentally it tracks "you know , and then I just I hold it and hold it, and I hit, and then a little I'm scared, and I just I'm throwing a bomb, but in I don't have any.

real knowledge, or I not in that position to put such diagnosis. "So, you know, we tried to remain faithful because many of us, I think he is experiencing real life. Yes. You also stayed faithful to how youth in fact uses his/her own phones and the internet. For example, many textual messages and similar things in television shows and movies seem added, uh, you know, for exposure and, uh , but here it is so typically for characters and plot development, uh, that it just happens as if a feature, but not a mistake, you know, in because of how you do it.

Uh, so I thought... It would be interesting to hear. your thoughts on what the difference between, on your opinion, generation Z and millennials, for example, how do you define this the gap or this delta? Oh, that's a great question. I believe this, and I don't I want to talk too much. in general, because then I I know what I will do. evening, reading negative comments before I go say. You need "Stop doing that." Yes. Uh, and uh, I think what millennials prone use social networks for presentations.

It's about rather about how I I can use this tool to create a certain image, which then may return back to my ego. And I I think that generation Z, because maybe they started doing this similarly in at a younger age, but at the moment I I feel that generation Z more uses social networks to get what they want, you know, not that millennials were looking for an external space in the void the internet, hoping to get something in return. While Generation Z says: no, I I want money, so I I am going to create content, so that later to receive money Uh, I don't like it.

of course, like, nice to receive likes and blah blah blah, but in the end I want this, that's why I I am going use this a means to obtain it. Although I still see, that millennials, I don't I see so much millennials who create content, but they certainly are produce the same amount content, but simply to feel okay...myself. for reasons external confirmation. Yes, I am. I think it's mine again. observation. Well, I I hope, uh, I, I, I I don't like to draw. general strokes, because, uh, the internet will go crazy.

But, uh, but this is what I see. Yes, that's super interesting. I am an older Generation X. Well, there is no Generation X in Season 2. You missed this. We we understand that this is mine counter. This is mine. claim not only to this season, but also in general, us unite with boomers . It seems like everything is fine, boomers. I thought: Dude, we're the coolest. No need. Why is everyone talking about Did you forget that? I, I, well, one thing I completely agree, removed from the record.

I'm 81, so I'm older. millennial, end Generation X. Me and me I think that generation X -this is the best generation. Well, but I I completely agree. Generation X simply somehow gets lost. AND, honestly, Oscar Isaac is Generation X. He's not like, uh, like in real life, he not an older millennial. And there was a time when we wrote, where we are like: "Oh, should we to remain faithful real life and to see Carrie Mulligan as Elder millennial, and Oscar Isaac—Generation X? »"But then, just in topic, it felt cleaner, just like opposition Older Millennial Generation Z.

Uh, so this is Jed X excluded from this work. But it's interesting. I like it spirituality; I most I relate to Generation X, therefore that the end of the 90s and, hmm , early 2000s was for me the most influential, you know? Music from the late 90s is what it is what I live and breathe. AND, you know, early Link Ladder, singles like Reality Bites, it was like this formative. Uh, but, um, but yeah, we...I don't know, Is it just because Generation X, uh, like this when you think about these movies and this one music, it's spiritual, it is not felt like energy, which, like Dot, too much protests.

You see, What am I talking about? This is literally like lazy people, you know? It's just... But that's all Sensitivity Generation "X, you know I..." I mean? Simply something like that. Yes. Of course, when you You are lost as a generation, it's simple because we not enough raised their hands, I I think. Hmm, but now there is this wonderful moment nostalgia for the 90s, which affects Generation Z. Generation Z gives up very gentle in his nostalgia for the 90s. I I think it's the same. happens because Generation X was response to the era Reagan, very corporate, locked, hmm, Christian ideology.

And then, of course, the next generation was as follows: "No, thank you, we let's break all these regulations". And I think, that generation Z, uh, feels exactly like that. It as the next cycle, Do you understand? They looking at all these rules and peculiarities ideology and the rigidity of that It was before, and they say: "Wait, I'm listening." Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins, and I I'm starting to feel that something resonates within me, because I am now through "I'm going through this." "And therefore really cool to see, how are they reopen, and also how Generation Z gravitates towards things that, like that the fact that Generation Z tends towards dull tones , you know, dead tones Generation X never had their place in the 90s .

It's amazing, you know. , and that gives me a big hope for the future. Actually, it really is. life-affirming to see such things, because, like cycles, it not just a circle. It seems that this spiral, and every time she is a little different, it grows every time and develops, and this as a direction somewhere, that's nice Yes. I have a 19 year old daughter, and she has the most eclectic taste, because she is not waiting for the exit new album or what he will tell her radio station that she must like it.

She has there is a whole musical cannon , available to her, so that she could choose that that she likes. Yes . And you know, she's like that, like Sonic Youth and Elliot Smith, and then jazz, and then something like this…" You know, from the 40s, and then this, um, Boards of Canada, like all these cool new things, and that's why she's like my muse for tasting culture, you know, I I just think that in This is something real. wonderful, because I was like that, who play on radio, you know, when I grew up.

Absolutely. All this in this nostalgia for the 9s , because it was, you know, you know, the last one analog era. I I think that what is not they notice, you know, restrictions of this culture that was, It was as if it was imposed. to us or dictated. We don't necessarily could determine this, until it appeared something like Nirvana, and, well, and it just became undeniable. Yes. That's right. Doing second season, me started more to realize how I I am turning into older generation. And I I think that what naturally happens when, you know, millennials for 40, that's what's easy become a version the generation that once was higher than us when you judge the following generation, and you...like: "Oh, as if these children are not know." "And as in mine time, blah blah blah.

But I like that. what are you saying, because this as if we, old heads, we are talking. When are you put yourself in your place young people, it's cool that they like it, they can just to choose eclectically, unlike us. AND I am trying to remember. to myself, what I catch every day myself in what I do things when I say, "Oh, I I speak as I used to. sounded like a 40-year-old man". "That's right." it is important to try prevent your brain, you know, yours neuroplasticity became too much tough, and that's exactly what I am so worried about how raising a daughter, her personality already manifests itself.

She walks and talks, and I can't wait. to see what she has will like it, Do you understand? This is what so wonderful. It was real. call me when I watched season 2. I realized that millennials already adults. Because I am enough adult. I'm like, "Oh, millennials are young generation, Do you understand? And I am like this: "Wait, Oscar. Isaac. Yes, okay. Maybe he generation X". But he depicts a character, mature-like adult character, who is a millennial. AND I'm like, "Wow, I'm old." "Yes. Because I remember, how are we just mourned millennials, that they lazy and unwilling work.

And now Jenz says, "Hold on." "my beer." "How are these tropes, you know, oh, like nobody wants hard to work, etc. As if we just We recycle these things. I'm sure, you know, a wonderful generation and boomers looked at Generation X as in the worst lazy people, you know, and now we we do the same. Exactly the same. Yes. And this is what it is, this that last frame season. Yes. You know, I I feel that it is best what can be done with these waves, this try to learn to run them, you know, and recognize differences, but then don't be like that, huh -e, loopy and worked, uh, you know.

The wave exists, and therefore, instead of, to fight it or to get angry with her, as if she is there. She beautiful. Let's let's put up with it the fact that it is constantly what's happening, and what, um , every generation repeated over and over again to his own. Uh, but you know, it's easier to say..." than exactly. So you've been writing for 20 years. years. Almost 20. Yes. It seems , I moved here in 2008 year. Uh, yes. I am not I understand time. Yes.

Wait until you won't reach mine age-related changes. Um, yours. the first job was in program on the page NBC. Is that so? For example, When was your first? break, you know? How long? it took before you thought, "Oh, I I actually think that Can I make a career out of it? »"I think it was two mini-breaks, one mini-break, and then one big break. Uh, there was a mini-break. to get on NBC page. Um, You know, I was unemployed and just worked temporarily in New York, and my friend, I lived in then.

Greenpoint. Uh, and he worried about mine mental health, because Greenpoint then literally not yet was ennobled. He was completely Polish. You are not could find grocery, which would be like ingredients in English, you know. So I never left the house. I just stayed in to your apartment and watched the OC again and again. And, uh, he started very worry about me. So he pushed my resume without mine question to yourself to a friend who worked in the program. And surprisingly, I called on interview. I am not took it seriously.

I am late for interview on 15 minutes. And, uh, somehow I was miraculously saved. And this was my first real acquaintance with the entertainment industry. And, of course, I was like in peacock ties and conducted excursions in the studio for 10 dollars per hour, but I caught..." this one beetle. I thought, "No." I can believe that in "There is work in this world." . Thanks to this I got a job at " "Tonight's show." I really like him. hated. Wonderful people, but my schedule was from about 1:30 p.m.

to 4:30 in the morning. Hmm, this is the opposite of everything." So I used this one strange schedule, so then, uh, then I have was a partner in writing scripts. We just started learn to write yourself. We watched the show, read books, and every weekend instead of to go out somewhere, we sat down and, you know, tried to write scenes together. AND after all, we wrote pilot episode about the Page program and sent it friends. Then one of our friends, Lynn Barry, who used to worked at " The Tonight Show," was an assistant Jeff Ingold, who at that time headed NBC comedy department, uh, he, he now manages the company Bill Lawrence.

And he was so kind. He read this, called us and said, "Hey, I just bought a pilot episode about the program " Page, and this one the script is better. IN "Are you agents?" "And we They said, "No." And he like this: “You know what? I I will call from your name to every big one agencies". "And suddenly we have such people like the CIA, William Morris, Endeavor, all of us called. And we took a week vacation, uh, flew to Los Angeles Angeles. I remember, my then partner I didn't want to go on a ride.

to do this, but I was obsessed desire to spend an extra few hundred for rent a convertible Mustang. Uh, because I wanted to to ride around Beverly- Hills with down riding and feeling yourself, well, you know, in this industry. And we turned to the most fashionable agent for the time being represented the whole office, Windy Kalinga and all the screenwriters, and, uh, he told us move to Los Angeles Angeles beforehand, what happened, It seems like May 15th, and we did it, and then everything went wrong.

It was like, uh, it was impossible to agree on meetings. The agent is not answered our calls, and then, as I I remember, I was there again. unemployed and worked temporarily in Los Angeles. Uh, and this lasted until then time, like, you know, ours a new one appeared manager. Somehow how our scenarios ended up on the table, uh- uh, Rob, Charlie and Glenn from It's Always Sunny in... » Philadelphia, and they invited us to general meeting. They lasted 10 minutes. I was sure that we didn't understand.

And then we got a call, and it was real big breakthrough. Like, it was your first the writers' room? "The first room screenwriters"–my favorite show on television. I couldn't to believe that every day spending time with Rob Charlie and Glenn in the screenwriters' room. They are the most pleasant, the best guys. Uh, I still think that Glenn Howardton– one of mine closest friends. AND, uh, that was real full education, because these guys do everything . They write, directing, acting, produce. And this became the basis for of what I do.

I sometimes joke with screenwriters' room that if "Always Sunny" and "Beef" is actually very similar...Eh, it's just "Always Sunny" is expansion comedy spectrum up to 12. But usually something happens small and annoying, and then everyone acts with ego in "Always Sunday, and then, you know, It gets worse, and... worse and worse. And this really like a formula for beef. We just take the tone and We reduce it a little. Yes. When you collaborate with so many people over television show, tone –that's all. Like, you don't either.

you, I mean you, your first time settled down director in the final the first season, right? AND then you directed three or four episodes in the second season. Um, but you don't direct. every episode. You showrunner. You main screenwriter. You are responsible for the tone. . But over this show hundreds of people work. You have to be general, to make sure that everyone they do the same thing the show itself. Hmm. And you can't to control everything, how Do you provide this? Just so many hours conversations.

Um, and a lot analogies that I I think very much useful because so hard to get in to someone in your brain. So I just I always try find words, analogies and formulas. Yes. In the first season screenwriters' rooms I came up with...Formula the tone I told everyone in the room seems to joke, but then everything started to become serious, and we her adhered to. I said that the tone beef should be on 35%similar to early comedy by Paul Thomas Anderson/Klan Soprano, where are you? laugh at broken psychology someone, plus 35% similar to Netflix, which allows you to view movies at White Lotus, cool moments, such as Finchure Propulsion, plus 30% heat melancholic panics Ingmar Bergman/ Hiroakads, etc., and warm melancholy was key.

Uh, we often showed this in Zoom, and every time we were looking at the stage, we tried to make sure whether we achieve what we want percent? For example, Is there... in this scene? there was just a scene that was really provocative? For example, should we make sure that in There's something about this scene. kind of posing Ingar Bergman, and making the second season uh i just you know, gave a tonal everyone has the same formula. Yes. And it seems that A24 —the only house like this for this.

Is there something in this. A24. It's like you You know it when you see it. Yes. You definitely can't to say what it is. This is the tone. This is sensitivity. This is aesthetics. Hmm, but it's real. This is real. I have on mind, uh, you know, people, there were many articles and it was written about what they are now, just, you know, they are more involved merch than creativity etc., and that's me of course I think it's simple. indicates that how good their marketing. Their merch is great.

THERE ARE- eh, but in the end, the reason for their such success still lies in creativity. I I think they have people, you know, Ravi Nandan, who heads A24 television, I actually knew him since the days when worked for NBC. Uh, he was the producer of this very wide pilot episode, which I wrote for NBC in 2009. And then we kept in touch for many years. And then, when he reached the A24, we have it was just...sushi, to again to get acquainted. And I told him about this incident, related to aggressive behavior on the road, which I got into.

And I thought: "I don't know." I think there's something here. like a show, because there is something The funny thing is that to be locked in some mechanical bubble, and you you are just in own subjectivity. Not having an idea, through what is going on another man. And he immediately said: "Let's do this show" ". And I thought:" Really? "He is like this:" Gay. Who would you like? see? "I thought, 'Well...'" , I always wanted to work with Stephen Young. He one of my good ones friends, and we tried to find something together.

"He like this: "This is great. Let's connect Stephen Yang ". "And there is other places where you will have to go through because of so much bureaucratic procedures and think: "Oh, This is interesting. Let's let's develop this and, you know, blah blah blah- blah. When they do something feel, they moving, you know, and they really are trust their instincts artist. This is less it seems like they tried deliberately to tell you that do. It's more like like: "Oh, you're doing this fascinated. Let's we will find ways support this." You know, even now there is one idea.

I have on Mind you, Robbie and I so close now friends, but I talked to him by phone. I told him about a project that I did not I'm working with A24, and I told him about world, and he said, "Oh, God, this is exciting. Let me to introduce you to my friend who actually manages the largest company in this field, and, uh, you should, you know, get closer to him and to go on an excursion or something like that." "As if this is someone who just operates with pure artistic point vision.

Uh, and you hear this again and again from people who are with them worked. As if this just like you, it's definitely different. Yes, this is definitely special. Uh-huh , I think people worried. They just picked up a bunch money. What does this mean? Do you know if it will stay? is it the same? Or Will it be different? You know, A24 Bros. Uh, you know, vocal. They are vocal team. And probably this will not stay the same. This will go. along the same path, which we talked about, from which it all begins seriously.

This will be grow. This will be stagnate, and then they will have to change. But that one the fact that they, like, for example, Kane Parsons, made underground steps, you know, it's like 20- annual agreement on development on 64 millions of dollars. Yes . No other place would do this. I I think they are too are developing. Uh, and, uh, I sure do I love beef, which wouldn't exist without, uh, Ravi and..." A24. That's right. . You are public talked about their early experience in screenwriters' rooms and about some difficulties with whom you encountered, and about this sensitivity that you were hired by DEI and something like, "Oh, you know, I am not quite correct".

Tell me about this experience, and then about how you overcame him, to to really feel your authentic voice. What is this for? Did you need it? What was it like? this experience, and what do you had to do to , you know, to own with his confidence and with your voice? Looking back, I I think that I I am disappointed because my younger self, because I, you know, worried again some moments in screenwriters' rooms , where there was one show that I wrote where I was.

very stereotypical Asian character and very cliché, and jokes almost in 100% of cases were at his expense. Uh, you know, I remember. that there was one... the showrunner of this show, like, there was one, um, joke about that Asian character , where he ate dog, and you...you know, everyone, half of the room was impressed by this, but then the other half The room was laughing, and showrunner this liked it. And you know , like, he came back to me and to to see what I am I feel, and like, in that moment I would have to say: "Go to hell", you know, like, I should to stand up for, for, for yourself, for, for this character.

And then I just deleted shoulders and said: "X, You know, it's funny, you know, like, I just agreed to this. "And there were so many of them cases when I was dying inside, but on the outside, you know, you Are you afraid of losing? work, you are afraid and Yes. It's like, uh, I-I I wonder if I should to be more, uh brave? Absolutely. But, uh, I-I admit that I wasn't like that back then. moments. And, uh, you know , I think I have to live with it .

I-I, but, you know, I I think that a lot colored writers, uh, stories that I I'm sharing, it's simple. tip of the iceberg. IN these rooms terrible things happened things if you a person of color. Uh, and we, the system, was in such a way that its it was very difficult shake. Uh, I'm very grateful that for the last, You know, it was 10 years ago. achieved this great progress and so many changes, and so on shows like "Beef", may exist, and, of course, like this behavior is simply not will be tolerated in modern rooms for writers.

But then when you look for 2026 on society as a whole, It gets scary because ...” You seem made a big progress, but sometimes it seems that we are on one step forward, on two steps back. Um, and, uh, speaking of generation, I I'm fascinated by this. Generation Z. You know, uh- uh, I think this one Instagram, social networks–it's simple microcosm for me and my peers my generation. It was like this a lot of searching external confirmation, you know, like you're sitting in the room writer, do you hear this a joke at your own expense, but you are looking outside confirmation that that you belong here, and this, uh, is why you You laugh.

Unlike from generation Z. What What's so cool about that is what are they doing, yeah it's that they don't are looking for. They do nothing. receive. Yes. They just they say: "No, I'm here, in this room to build your own career." "Yes. And we're not kidding. Yes. And guys like me, They say: "You deserve it." this confidence? First you need to be done work, and then, maybe I, you know, I agree that you you should be here, Do you understand? Absolutely". But then , but that's the thing, I I say that too.

But then one of younger writers, which I , hmm, as if instructing, hmm but alex russell who is younger than me . I think he is representative generation Z, millennials. Uh, he was on the verge millennials. Uh, with the moment when I met him, he had such energy that just saying that wants, knows what he wants, very, very confident in in his tone, and this often contradicted any room, in which he was, you know, but he was indifferently. And, uh, I am saw, and, uh, you know , helped him find manager, and, uh, for his debut the movie he directed, "Lurker," uh, I was his executor.

producer. Uh, because I thought that this one the guy will create something so unique." him, because you feel this energy, as if to me no matter what you are older than me or something you are more experienced producer. As if this is it, What do I know? And that's why it was cool to see though my instinct suggested: "Okay, Dude, I had to. for decades roam the slums before I have appeared at all such a possibility, but I'll think about it later. , I'll postpone, I know that there is talent there, and I'm trying, you know, connect the correct ones points so that he, you know , he, he, in the end, this amazing producer Alex Orsky, came to the movie and, and , and brought him to finish line.

But generations like us, millennials and Generation X, we can't do what boomers do done to us? Of course, that's fine. to feel that they must deserve it, but how, how can we to change it, you know ? But then again, easier said than done make. Yes, there is something wonderful...I I'm just fascinated. a young person who walks around, just full confidence, Do you understand? It's simple. so how is that possible? You know, I'm just like that, I don't deserve it, I do just...my, you know, internal monologue- it's just constant scold me.

Well, or Did you hear... Wow, this is so similar to how it happened, Do you understand? Well, you heard. research that, um, found that your internal monologue- it's just a voice one of yours parents from a certain year of childhood. And I think that this yes...I think we have, probably similar internal monologues, but probably similar parents speak similar things. And I think, that generation Z, significant some of them have opposite internal monologue, because their parents simply told them that they the best in the world. Like, yes, I am.

best. Of course, I should be in this. room. You know, this is it. that I heard all my life. Yes. And now, how? Father, I am like this, I...No I know which one is correct. approach. You know, maybe it's gold middle, but, um yes, it's a pendulum. He fluctuates in his extremes and over time must find a balance. Here is such a spiral, you know, like an attempt find gold The middle, I think. Have you ever been -something so tender fatherhood in answer to the game earlier, or...

Oh, 100%. I just, you know , it was comprehensive with mine" as for such ", I also avoid. I am not I want conflicts. So I am not the one who performs. task, you know, and I suffered from crazy expectations, which I could never would answer, and just, you know, this holding love, and you know, the idea that this due to a certain degree of achievement in world, etc., and, uh, I wanted to make this easier burden from their children, but I guess I went in too far in another ...direction.

I don't know. But, as you also you understand, because now My children are older, and you you understand when they very young that they as they are. They are coming, especially when you have many children, and you Do you understand how much they are different. This does not have nothing to do with you. You just come to a certain level fully formed , and then you see them young adults. It's like you're still exactly the same as in childhood. And I think, that this is touching, because we, parents, we have this idea that we so critical important, and upbringing children is important.

I I think that education children are to be healthy conscious father is it really the most important thing is that you you can do. Yes. Hmm, but at the same time you also understand that you just place here and there are protective barriers, and they will be who they are they will be. Yes. Yes. So that makes it a little easier the anxiety of parenthood. Of course, I really like it. helps. Yes, that's why What are you, you, like...I I feel like I existed. this myth about natural upbringing and...what is it something like 5050, but that sounds right rather than nature.

Yes. I mean, I could go here and there. I don't know. You know, I I think this is another one. a kind of pretzel Zena Cohen from brain pretzels , which, you know, we we will be in a cycle, you know, trying understand this forever. Yes. Um, but here we are there is no free will, isn't that right? So who is this? Are you worried? Um, you on this one topic, you know, very How long have you been? Sannon Lee. Well, only you recently started use yours , you know, real name at birth in in their works.

For example, when Sunny became your name? AND when did you get to the moment you thought: "No, it's Leon Jen, and so it will be. from now on." "Hmm. I have I mean, I was born named Lee Seong Jin, and in Korean Lee —my last name. Uh, so many media They believe that Jin— my last name. Uh, but I write Lee first, because in Korean language The last name comes first. That's why, you know, director Pon Jin Ho Bon—his last name, and director Bakjan Park— name.

Uh, so I was born with this name. Uh, and then in the sixth class when I moved from Korea to Minnesota. Uh, exactly. then, uh, you know, the name became daily a problem because, you know, I had an accent, and, uh -eh, teachers never never seen these before letters in this way okay, so every day in the lessons they added new ones consonants when They shouted my name. You know, they would be like that, and people would laugh. Me It was so awkward. AND in about a couple of days weeks ago I I remember sitting behind at your desk in the classroom, and there was something on kind of document, something like task, and I just looked at part of name, and I don't know what It happened to me.

I just wrote " Sunny" with the letter " AT". for some reason. And it's definitely not that I watched something like this name. I don't I just liked it. watch "The Godfather" father's "or something like that. I was just like" Sunny. That's what I I will be guided. And I told his Teacher, I said to your friends, and everyone they said that this makes our lives easier. And I told my family, and somehow this is how it remained with sixth grade up to, probably 36-37 years old.

Hmm, and I was completely satisfied with that was called "Sunny" in your career. AND then it seems that It was 2018, I want to say that, uh, I was drinking coffee at Dogtown Coffee Shop in Santa Monica, and, uh, I did his thing order, and they read your order by name your credit cards. And I just waited, and I suddenly returned to sixth grade, because they are wrong it was read. AND then the people around I was laughed at, but then I shrank, grabbed his order and simple slipped out of there.

AND I didn't like it. how it felt, Do you understand? I thought:" Why? "I, I, I'm an adult man, and I'm like I'm going back to my place. sixth grade through your name...and "That one" year, it seems, um, uh , the movie was released* Vermin*. I was thinking about directed by Bong Jin-ho and director Pak Chanukah. And when people pronounce these three compositions, for example, first, no one distorts his name, and secondly, this is so cool sounds like they they do cool things. So I thought, "Well, if I start doing cooler things and I will use yours Korean name, maybe this will help, for example, overcome the stigma of these, you know, Korean names from three components in Western culture." THERE ARE -eh, then I wrote about it a show called "Tuka and Birdie, and I turned to showrunner Lisa Hanowalt and asked her: "Hey, I know what this is, probably a test, because you already indicated subtitles, but is it possible me to use name Li Hong?" "And she very kind of you listened, and I think, what did they add a lot of effort to change my subtitles to so the show, and, um, then it just stuck.

What advice can you give? give to the young, um, you know, Americans Asian origin, which trying to influence to be born and established in any career, so that they know who is dealing with such identity, um, situation, based on my observations, and again anyway, I don't like it broad strokes, but just from my experience I found that with this to the next generation something is happening like a pendulum, like here, where, in response to previous, many cinematographers Asian origin leads with identity. You know, I meet so many young people writers, when, for example, I'm going to panel or something like that, saying: "You know, I wrote a story of my life, because I, You know, I want, I want, like, I'm proud of myself identity." "Um, but, like, nobody knows not interested.

You know, What can I do? Like, is this or is that? system? Is this it? Or Is that it? And I am like this: Look, it's great that, like you, in yours There is so much in life. what, what do you want? to dive, but you don't you can, it can't be only by identity, Do you understand? You too you have to think about skill. You have to master well music theory, first than, you know, to become studio musician . And I think that now, how many young people generations, and not all, but some say, "Well , you know, like, okay, I I see that in the past we could not express

Go deeper

• All Rich Roll Podcast episode guides