How Hormones Shape Sexual Orientation & Behavior | Dr. Marc Breedlove

The larger the number of older brothers The larger the number of older brothers that a male has, the higher the that a male has, the higher the that a male has, the higher the probability that he is gay. probability that he is gay. probability that he is gay. >> It's been seen over and over. I mean, >> It's been seen over and over. I mean, >> It's been seen over and over. I mean, it's it's really one of the u rock solid it's it's really one of the u rock solid it's it's really one of the u rock solid findings in human sexuality. So, the way findings in human sexuality. So, the way findings in human sexuality. So, the way to emphasize the difference is if a baby to emphasize the difference is if a baby to emphasize the difference is if a baby boy is born today, um if if he has no boy is born today, um if if he has no boy is born today, um if if he has no older brothers, his odds of being gay older brothers, his odds of being gay older brothers, his odds of being gay when he grows up is about 2%. Right? when he grows up is about 2%. Right? when he grows up is about 2%. Right? Pretty low. But if he had one older Pretty low. But if he had one older Pretty low. But if he had one older brother, his odds go up by a third. brother, his odds go up by a third. brother, his odds go up by a third. Okay, 2.6. And if he has two older Okay, 2.6. And if he has two older Okay, 2.6. And if he has two older brothers, they go up a third again. All brothers, they go up a third again. All brothers, they go up a third again. All right, now we're at 3.5. It turns out right, now we're at 3.5. It turns out right, now we're at 3.5. It turns out you got to have like a dozen older you got to have like a dozen older you got to have like a dozen older brothers just to have a 50/50 chance. brothers just to have a 50/50 chance. brothers just to have a 50/50 chance. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and where we discuss science and where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Mark Breedlove. Dr. Mark today is Dr. Mark Breedlove. Dr. Mark today is Dr. Mark Breedlove. Dr. Mark Breedlove is a professor of neuroscience Breedlove is a professor of neuroscience Breedlove is a professor of neuroscience at Michigan State University, and he is at Michigan State University, and he is at Michigan State University, and he is an expert in how hormones shape the an expert in how hormones shape the an expert in how hormones shape the developing brain, in particular, how developing brain, in particular, how developing brain, in particular, how they influence sexual orientation. As they influence sexual orientation. As they influence sexual orientation. As you'll learn today, the amount of you'll learn today, the amount of you'll learn today, the amount of testosterone that a fetus is exposed to testosterone that a fetus is exposed to testosterone that a fetus is exposed to while in the mother has a profound while in the mother has a profound while in the mother has a profound impact not only on the ratio of finger impact not only on the ratio of finger impact not only on the ratio of finger lengths, yes, you heard that right, but lengths, yes, you heard that right, but lengths, yes, you heard that right, but it also plays a meaningful role in it also plays a meaningful role in it also plays a meaningful role in sexual orientation. And in fact, there's sexual orientation. And in fact, there's sexual orientation. And in fact, there's a correlation there between finger a correlation there between finger a correlation there between finger length ratios and sexual orientation. length ratios and sexual orientation. length ratios and sexual orientation. Now, as wild as that may seem, that Now, as wild as that may seem, that Now, as wild as that may seem, that result has now been confirmed many times result has now been confirmed many times result has now been confirmed many times over in humans and in animals. And over in humans and in animals. And over in humans and in animals. And today, you'll understand why. You'll today, you'll understand why. You'll today, you'll understand why. You'll also learn that every time a woman is also learn that every time a woman is also learn that every time a woman is pregnant with a male, there's a pregnant with a male, there's a pregnant with a male, there's a biological trace of that which biases biological trace of that which biases biological trace of that which biases the likelihood that her next male the likelihood that her next male the likelihood that her next male offspring will be either heterosexual or offspring will be either heterosexual or offspring will be either heterosexual or homosexual. Now, I know this sounds homosexual. Now, I know this sounds homosexual. Now, I know this sounds really out there, but these are really out there, but these are really out there, but these are extremely solid biological findings for extremely solid biological findings for extremely solid biological findings for which the mechanisms are now understood which the mechanisms are now understood which the mechanisms are now understood for both animals and humans. It turns for both animals and humans. It turns for both animals and humans. It turns out that the hormones we are exposed to out that the hormones we are exposed to out that the hormones we are exposed to while we are in the womb shape not only while we are in the womb shape not only while we are in the womb shape not only the preference for whether somebody is the preference for whether somebody is the preference for whether somebody is attracted to males or females, but also attracted to males or females, but also attracted to males or females, but also an aversion to the opposite. Meaning an aversion to the opposite. Meaning an aversion to the opposite. Meaning there appears to be the formation of there appears to be the formation of there appears to be the formation of circuits for being attracted to one sex circuits for being attracted to one sex circuits for being attracted to one sex and not attracted to the other. Today and not attracted to the other. Today and not attracted to the other. Today you'll also learn how hormones impact you'll also learn how hormones impact you'll also learn how hormones impact the amount of rough and tumble or social the amount of rough and tumble or social the amount of rough and tumble or social play that kids engage in, the interplay play that kids engage in, the interplay play that kids engage in, the interplay between nature and nurture in shaping between nature and nurture in shaping between nature and nurture in shaping male versus female differences and male versus female differences and male versus female differences and sexual orientation. Dr. Breedlove is one sexual orientation. Dr. Breedlove is one sexual orientation. Dr. Breedlove is one of the long-standing pioneers in this of the long-standing pioneers in this of the long-standing pioneers in this field of how hormone shape brain field of how hormone shape brain field of how hormone shape brain development and psychology. We approach development and psychology. We approach development and psychology. We approach these questions through the lens of these questions through the lens of these questions through the lens of biology and statistics. So today's is biology and statistics. So today's is biology and statistics. So today's is not a political discussion. Instead, not a political discussion. Instead, not a political discussion. Instead, it's a discussion about what is known it's a discussion about what is known it's a discussion about what is known and what is still not known about this and what is still not known about this and what is still not known about this profound aspect of our species. Oh, and profound aspect of our species. Oh, and profound aspect of our species. Oh, and we also talk about gay rams. Yes, that's we also talk about gay rams. Yes, that's we also talk about gay rams. Yes, that's a real thing and it has important a real thing and it has important a real thing and it has important implications for everything we've implications for everything we've implications for everything we've mentioned thus far. By the end of mentioned thus far. By the end of mentioned thus far. By the end of today's episode, you'll surely think today's episode, you'll surely think today's episode, you'll surely think differently about the relationship differently about the relationship differently about the relationship between hormones and brain development, between hormones and brain development, between hormones and brain development, nature and nurture, and romantic partner nature and nurture, and romantic partner nature and nurture, and romantic partner choice. Before we begin, I'd like to choice. Before we begin, I'd like to choice. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate emphasize that this podcast is separate emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at from my teaching and research roles at from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my Stanford. It is however part of my Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to desire and effort to bring zero cost to desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and consumer information about science and consumer information about science and science related tools to the general science related tools to the general science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, public. In keeping with that theme, public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. today's episode does include sponsors. today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark Breedlove. Dr. Mark Breedlove, welcome. Breedlove. Dr. Mark Breedlove, welcome. Breedlove. Dr. Mark Breedlove, welcome. >> Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. >> Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. >> Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. It's very exciting. It's very exciting. It's very exciting. >> Been 25 years since we stood in the same >> Been 25 years since we stood in the same >> Been 25 years since we stood in the same physical space. physical space. physical space. >> I know. How can that How can that be >> I know. How can that How can that be >> I know. How can that How can that be possible when I I feel like, you know, possible when I I feel like, you know, possible when I I feel like, you know, just saw you a few days ago, but then just saw you a few days ago, but then just saw you a few days ago, but then >> Well, you look great. Uh you look the >> Well, you look great. Uh you look the >> Well, you look great. Uh you look the same. So, uh we can talk longevity same. So, uh we can talk longevity same. So, uh we can talk longevity protocols at the end, but protocols at the end, but protocols at the end, but >> I'm trying to have a blonde look in my >> I'm trying to have a blonde look in my >> I'm trying to have a blonde look in my hair apparently. So, hair apparently. So, hair apparently. So, >> well, um, I've wanted to have you on >> well, um, I've wanted to have you on >> well, um, I've wanted to have you on this podcast since I launched it because this podcast since I launched it because this podcast since I launched it because you work on one of the most interesting you work on one of the most interesting you work on one of the most interesting things in the world, which is how and things in the world, which is how and things in the world, which is how and why people become who they are and how why people become who they are and how why people become who they are and how hormones play a role there, how genes hormones play a role there, how genes hormones play a role there, how genes play a role there. play a role there. play a role there. >> If you're willing, I'd like to jump from >> If you're willing, I'd like to jump from >> If you're willing, I'd like to jump from the high dive to the deep end first. the high dive to the deep end first. the high dive to the deep end first. Right off, Right off, Right off, >> let's talk about this fingerlength >> let's talk about this fingerlength >> let's talk about this fingerlength ratios sexual orientation study that ratios sexual orientation study that ratios sexual orientation study that >> you published and somehow I landed on >> you published and somehow I landed on >> you published and somehow I landed on that paper. That's not why I want to that paper. That's not why I want to that paper. That's not why I want to talk about it. I want to talk about talk about it. I want to talk about talk about it. I want to talk about because it's an incredibly interesting because it's an incredibly interesting because it's an incredibly interesting set of findings. Other people have done set of findings. Other people have done set of findings. Other people have done the sameish experiments and there's a the sameish experiments and there's a the sameish experiments and there's a whole context there about how hormones whole context there about how hormones whole context there about how hormones influence sexual orientation independent influence sexual orientation independent influence sexual orientation independent of behavior. of behavior. of behavior. >> We need to step back a little bit for >> We need to step back a little bit for >> We need to step back a little bit for the context. Uh, one thing that your the context. Uh, one thing that your the context. Uh, one thing that your listeners might not know is, you know, listeners might not know is, you know, listeners might not know is, you know, in the year 2000, there was still a lot in the year 2000, there was still a lot in the year 2000, there was still a lot of people who regarded um, same-sex of people who regarded um, same-sex of people who regarded um, same-sex orientation as a choice, a lifestyle orientation as a choice, a lifestyle orientation as a choice, a lifestyle choice. That was the the political choice. That was the the political choice. That was the the political combination of words that meant you combination of words that meant you combination of words that meant you could disapprove of people u because could disapprove of people u because could disapprove of people u because they were attracted to the same sex. Of they were attracted to the same sex. Of they were attracted to the same sex. Of course, I'm I'm at Berkeley. I I didn't course, I'm I'm at Berkeley. I I didn't course, I'm I'm at Berkeley. I I didn't have any truck with such notions at all. have any truck with such notions at all. have any truck with such notions at all. and and and I've always been convinced and and and I've always been convinced and and and I've always been convinced that sexual orientation is not a choice. that sexual orientation is not a choice. that sexual orientation is not a choice. And there's a exercise I do in class And there's a exercise I do in class And there's a exercise I do in class where I ask so I'm going to put you to where I ask so I'm going to put you to where I ask so I'm going to put you to it now. So remember the first time you it now. So remember the first time you it now. So remember the first time you had a crush, had a crush, had a crush, >> right? It might have been someone on TV, >> right? It might have been someone on TV, >> right? It might have been someone on TV, might have been someone a playground, might have been someone a playground, might have been someone a playground, etc. So think about it and I I want you etc. So think about it and I I want you etc. So think about it and I I want you to tell me about how old you were at the to tell me about how old you were at the to tell me about how old you were at the time in a moment. time in a moment. time in a moment. >> My guess is it was before puberty. >> My guess is it was before puberty. >> My guess is it was before puberty. >> Yeah, I was six. So and I hit puberty >> Yeah, I was six. So and I hit puberty >> Yeah, I was six. So and I hit puberty somewhere starting around 14. So, so it somewhere starting around 14. So, so it somewhere starting around 14. So, so it had nothing to do with puberty, right? had nothing to do with puberty, right? had nothing to do with puberty, right? It was this thing that happened and and It was this thing that happened and and It was this thing that happened and and I'll I'll share my experience. So, so I'll I'll share my experience. So, so I'll I'll share my experience. So, so I'm about six or seven. I couldn't have I'm about six or seven. I couldn't have I'm about six or seven. I couldn't have been more than seven. Uh, and Marilyn been more than seven. Uh, and Marilyn been more than seven. Uh, and Marilyn Monroe is on TV. I'm dating myself. And Monroe is on TV. I'm dating myself. And Monroe is on TV. I'm dating myself. And there's a closeup, you know, with that there's a closeup, you know, with that there's a closeup, you know, with that face and the and the mole, etc. And face and the and the mole, etc. And face and the and the mole, etc. And afterwards, I'm just so agitated. I afterwards, I'm just so agitated. I afterwards, I'm just so agitated. I don't, you know, I don't I and I know don't, you know, I don't I and I know don't, you know, I don't I and I know nothing about sex. I remember I had a nothing about sex. I remember I had a nothing about sex. I remember I had a hard time going to sleep. So, it was hard time going to sleep. So, it was hard time going to sleep. So, it was like something about this was really like something about this was really like something about this was really agitating me and I didn't choose to have agitating me and I didn't choose to have agitating me and I didn't choose to have that reaction and my guess is that that reaction and my guess is that that reaction and my guess is that whatever sex you had your first crush whatever sex you had your first crush whatever sex you had your first crush on, that's the one you were going to be on, that's the one you were going to be on, that's the one you were going to be attracted to the rest of your life. attracted to the rest of your life. attracted to the rest of your life. >> Yeah. It's been constant. >> Yeah. It's been constant. >> Yeah. It's been constant. >> Yeah. Well, so so so this idea that it >> Yeah. Well, so so so this idea that it >> Yeah. Well, so so so this idea that it was a choice that always just seems so was a choice that always just seems so was a choice that always just seems so absurd to me. On the other hand, um, absurd to me. On the other hand, um, absurd to me. On the other hand, um, even though, you know, I' I've been even though, you know, I' I've been even though, you know, I' I've been doing animal research with giving doing animal research with giving doing animal research with giving hormones early in life and seeing what hormones early in life and seeing what hormones early in life and seeing what it did to the nervous system, etc. Um, it did to the nervous system, etc. Um, it did to the nervous system, etc. Um, and every time I wrote an NIH grant, I and every time I wrote an NIH grant, I and every time I wrote an NIH grant, I said, well, you know, the effect of said, well, you know, the effect of said, well, you know, the effect of early hormones may be important for early hormones may be important for early hormones may be important for human behavior. But to tell you the human behavior. But to tell you the human behavior. But to tell you the truth, I never actually believe that, truth, I never actually believe that, truth, I never actually believe that, right? It was just I I just wanted to right? It was just I I just wanted to right? It was just I I just wanted to justify be because it seemed to me that justify be because it seemed to me that justify be because it seemed to me that we are so sensitive to social influences we are so sensitive to social influences we are so sensitive to social influences and we have this long stretch of time and we have this long stretch of time and we have this long stretch of time where we're, you know, our brains are where we're, you know, our brains are where we're, you know, our brains are still growing at a fetal rate of growth still growing at a fetal rate of growth still growing at a fetal rate of growth until at like 9 or 10 years of age and until at like 9 or 10 years of age and until at like 9 or 10 years of age and we're taking in so much information and we're taking in so much information and we're taking in so much information and and think of what a what a heterosexual and think of what a what a heterosexual and think of what a what a heterosexual world it is, right? I mean, all those world it is, right? I mean, all those world it is, right? I mean, all those Disney movies with Prince Charming and Disney movies with Prince Charming and Disney movies with Prince Charming and etc. Uh, and so it always seemed to me etc. Uh, and so it always seemed to me etc. Uh, and so it always seemed to me that that social that that social that that social learning would be more than enough to learning would be more than enough to learning would be more than enough to explain why 95% of people are straight. explain why 95% of people are straight. explain why 95% of people are straight. But that doesn't mean that was a choice. But that doesn't mean that was a choice. But that doesn't mean that was a choice. And it doesn't mean that they would even And it doesn't mean that they would even And it doesn't mean that they would even be aware of what the social influence be aware of what the social influence be aware of what the social influence was. So, so my example is I speak was. So, so my example is I speak was. So, so my example is I speak English. It's, you know, I'm hopelessly English. It's, you know, I'm hopelessly English. It's, you know, I'm hopelessly monilingual only language I speak. Well, monilingual only language I speak. Well, monilingual only language I speak. Well, I don't remember learning English and I I don't remember learning English and I I don't remember learning English and I certainly didn't choose to learn certainly didn't choose to learn certainly didn't choose to learn English, but I'm sure that it's English English, but I'm sure that it's English English, but I'm sure that it's English because of social influences, right? So because of social influences, right? So because of social influences, right? So that was where I stood on the question that was where I stood on the question that was where I stood on the question of sexual orientation until 1998 1999 of sexual orientation until 1998 1999 of sexual orientation until 1998 1999 when this fellow at University of Texas when this fellow at University of Texas when this fellow at University of Texas Dennis McFaden came out with a paper Dennis McFaden came out with a paper Dennis McFaden came out with a paper where it really made me think that where it really made me think that where it really made me think that prenatal testosterone might have an prenatal testosterone might have an prenatal testosterone might have an effect after all despite my effect after all despite my effect after all despite my expectations. expectations. expectations. And this was looking at oto acoustic And this was looking at oto acoustic And this was looking at oto acoustic emissions. Do you want you want to talk emissions. Do you want you want to talk emissions. Do you want you want to talk about those? These are uh people's ears about those? These are uh people's ears about those? These are uh people's ears making noise. making noise. making noise. >> Yeah. I mean, right now, in this studio, >> Yeah. I mean, right now, in this studio, >> Yeah. I mean, right now, in this studio, if if I if I shut up for a moment, your if if I if I shut up for a moment, your if if I if I shut up for a moment, your ears will continue to make little ears will continue to make little ears will continue to make little popping sounds that you're not aware of popping sounds that you're not aware of popping sounds that you're not aware of because having grown up with it, the the because having grown up with it, the the because having grown up with it, the the brain stops you from perceiving those brain stops you from perceiving those brain stops you from perceiving those long ago. Well, but if Dennis puts you long ago. Well, but if Dennis puts you long ago. Well, but if Dennis puts you in a soundproof room and puts a very in a soundproof room and puts a very in a soundproof room and puts a very sensitive microphone in your ear, he'll sensitive microphone in your ear, he'll sensitive microphone in your ear, he'll he'll hear these pops. And uh and I I he'll hear these pops. And uh and I I he'll hear these pops. And uh and I I won't get into the acoustics of why won't get into the acoustics of why won't get into the acoustics of why that's a good thing, right? It helps you that's a good thing, right? It helps you that's a good thing, right? It helps you to focus on the sounds you want to hear, to focus on the sounds you want to hear, to focus on the sounds you want to hear, but what Dennis knew is there's a sex but what Dennis knew is there's a sex but what Dennis knew is there's a sex difference in how many of these oto difference in how many of these oto difference in how many of these oto acoustic emissions are being made. Girls acoustic emissions are being made. Girls acoustic emissions are being made. Girls make more and it's present at birth. So make more and it's present at birth. So make more and it's present at birth. So Dennis comes out with a strange study. I Dennis comes out with a strange study. I Dennis comes out with a strange study. I mean, who would do such a thing where he mean, who would do such a thing where he mean, who would do such a thing where he he proposes, well, since the sex he proposes, well, since the sex he proposes, well, since the sex difference is present at birth, it might difference is present at birth, it might difference is present at birth, it might reflect prenatal testosterone. And so he reflect prenatal testosterone. And so he reflect prenatal testosterone. And so he measured the oto acoustic emissions in measured the oto acoustic emissions in measured the oto acoustic emissions in straight men and gay men and straight straight men and gay men and straight straight men and gay men and straight women and lesbians. women and lesbians. women and lesbians. And he reports that that the compared to And he reports that that the compared to And he reports that that the compared to straight women, the lesbians have fewer straight women, the lesbians have fewer straight women, the lesbians have fewer of these oto acoustic emissions than of these oto acoustic emissions than of these oto acoustic emissions than straight women. It's like, well, what straight women. It's like, well, what straight women. It's like, well, what what how would that happen? Um, how I I what how would that happen? Um, how I I what how would that happen? Um, how I I I couldn't think of any way to explain I couldn't think of any way to explain I couldn't think of any way to explain that except that, well, well, the that except that, well, well, the that except that, well, well, the lesbians might have been exposed to more lesbians might have been exposed to more lesbians might have been exposed to more prenatal testosterone than straight prenatal testosterone than straight prenatal testosterone than straight women before birth. And I don't know how women before birth. And I don't know how women before birth. And I don't know how to explain that except to say, well, to explain that except to say, well, to explain that except to say, well, maybe prenatal testosterone, maybe if maybe prenatal testosterone, maybe if maybe prenatal testosterone, maybe if you're exposed to that before birth, you're exposed to that before birth, you're exposed to that before birth, you're more likely to be attracted to you're more likely to be attracted to you're more likely to be attracted to women when you grow up. which oh well women when you grow up. which oh well women when you grow up. which oh well that might explain why 95% of men are that might explain why 95% of men are that might explain why 95% of men are attracted to women right because they're attracted to women right because they're attracted to women right because they're all exposed to prenatal testosterone. So all exposed to prenatal testosterone. So all exposed to prenatal testosterone. So this oddball study really gets me to this oddball study really gets me to this oddball study really gets me to thinking that maybe there's you know thinking that maybe there's you know thinking that maybe there's you know something to that but but I'll forget something to that but but I'll forget something to that but but I'll forget it. You know I'm still working with my it. You know I'm still working with my it. You know I'm still working with my rats and and paramiscus and siberian rats and and paramiscus and siberian rats and and paramiscus and siberian hamsters and stuff. I'm happily doing hamsters and stuff. I'm happily doing hamsters and stuff. I'm happily doing that. And then and I remember it so well that. And then and I remember it so well that. And then and I remember it so well and I I in 1999 I'm in my office at and I I in 1999 I'm in my office at and I I in 1999 I'm in my office at Berkeley and I read this paper that says Berkeley and I read this paper that says Berkeley and I read this paper that says there's a sex difference in the the there's a sex difference in the the there's a sex difference in the the ratio of fingers that's present in ratio of fingers that's present in ratio of fingers that's present in 9-year-old children. 9-year-old children. 9-year-old children. What? I've studied sex differences my What? I've studied sex differences my What? I've studied sex differences my whole adult life. How do I not know whole adult life. How do I not know whole adult life. How do I not know about this? And and it turns out that about this? And and it turns out that about this? And and it turns out that that if you if you measure the length of that if you if you measure the length of that if you if you measure the length of the second digit, the second digit, the second digit, >> the pointer finger, the pointer finger >> the pointer finger, the pointer finger >> the pointer finger, the pointer finger >> for those just listening. Yeah. >> for those just listening. Yeah. >> for those just listening. Yeah. >> Right. And the the length of the ring >> Right. And the the length of the ring >> Right. And the the length of the ring finger and you can you can do a simple finger and you can you can do a simple finger and you can you can do a simple ratio. Divide the length of the second ratio. Divide the length of the second ratio. Divide the length of the second digit by the fourth digit so-called 2d4 digit by the fourth digit so-called 2d4 digit by the fourth digit so-called 2d4 ratio. And a guy named John Manning was ratio. And a guy named John Manning was ratio. And a guy named John Manning was reporting that there's a sex difference reporting that there's a sex difference reporting that there's a sex difference there, that it's that that ratio tends there, that it's that that ratio tends there, that it's that that ratio tends to be smaller in men than in women, and to be smaller in men than in women, and to be smaller in men than in women, and that it's present in children. It's that it's present in children. It's that it's present in children. It's like, well, wait a minute. A sex like, well, wait a minute. A sex like, well, wait a minute. A sex difference in the body that's present difference in the body that's present difference in the body that's present before puberty. I know enough about before puberty. I know enough about before puberty. I know enough about sexual differentiation of the body, it's sexual differentiation of the body, it's sexual differentiation of the body, it's almost certainly due to prenatal almost certainly due to prenatal almost certainly due to prenatal testosterone. testosterone. testosterone. >> Forgive me for interrupting you, but >> Forgive me for interrupting you, but >> Forgive me for interrupting you, but people are probably looking at their people are probably looking at their people are probably looking at their hands right now. Yes. And um I just want hands right now. Yes. And um I just want hands right now. Yes. And um I just want to point out that these are averages but to point out that these are averages but to point out that these are averages but it's I think the 2D 4D thing for people it's I think the 2D 4D thing for people it's I think the 2D 4D thing for people that aren't familiar even though you that aren't familiar even though you that aren't familiar even though you explained it quite clearly can be a explained it quite clearly can be a explained it quite clearly can be a little confusing. Basically in men the little confusing. Basically in men the little confusing. Basically in men the finger lengths are more different than finger lengths are more different than finger lengths are more different than they are in women and there are some they are in women and there are some they are in women and there are some differences in differences in differences in uh in that statement according to sexual uh in that statement according to sexual uh in that statement according to sexual orientation that we'll get into. When orientation that we'll get into. When orientation that we'll get into. When you say uh the the in other words the you say uh the the in other words the you say uh the the in other words the typical heterosexual male pattern is typical heterosexual male pattern is typical heterosexual male pattern is that the pointer finger right is shorter that the pointer finger right is shorter that the pointer finger right is shorter than the ring finger. than the ring finger. than the ring finger. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Whereas in women >> Whereas in women >> Whereas in women >> they tend to be more similar. Again >> they tend to be more similar. Again >> they tend to be more similar. Again these are averages and these are averages and these are averages and >> not to give it away but this is because >> not to give it away but this is because >> not to give it away but this is because people are looking at their fingers people are looking at their fingers people are looking at their fingers right now. right now. right now. >> Let me just say don't panic. >> Let me just say don't panic. >> Let me just say don't panic. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> We're we're going to walk you through >> We're we're going to walk you through >> We're we're going to walk you through this. You're going to be fine. And uh this. You're going to be fine. And uh this. You're going to be fine. And uh the difference between men and women is the difference between men and women is the difference between men and women is more pronounced on the right hand as I more pronounced on the right hand as I more pronounced on the right hand as I recall. recall. recall. >> That that's true too. >> That that's true too. >> That that's true too. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh >> did I earn my authorship on the paper? >> did I earn my authorship on the paper? >> did I earn my authorship on the paper? >> Well, that and and the fact that you >> Well, that and and the fact that you >> Well, that and and the fact that you persuaded so many people to answer our persuaded so many people to answer our persuaded so many people to answer our weird questions and let us see rocks weird questions and let us see rocks weird questions and let us see rocks their hands. Yeah. their hands. Yeah. their hands. Yeah. >> Okay. So, please continue. But I know >> Okay. So, please continue. But I know >> Okay. So, please continue. But I know that the moment that came out, you know, that the moment that came out, you know, that the moment that came out, you know, hopefully there were no car accidents hopefully there were no car accidents hopefully there were no car accidents that people were driving. But but um uh that people were driving. But but um uh that people were driving. But but um uh these are averages. Um but that's the these are averages. Um but that's the these are averages. Um but that's the pattern that was observed. That's the pattern that was observed. That's the pattern that was observed. That's the pattern we Well, I'd never worked with pattern we Well, I'd never worked with pattern we Well, I'd never worked with humans before, but I'm sitting in the humans before, but I'm sitting in the humans before, but I'm sitting in the Bay Area. We have loads of gay people Bay Area. We have loads of gay people Bay Area. We have loads of gay people around. You you know, so it's like, around. You you know, so it's like, around. You you know, so it's like, well, let's I guess we could try to do well, let's I guess we could try to do well, let's I guess we could try to do this. And so, we started going out to this. And so, we started going out to this. And so, we started going out to street fairs. You were you were with us street fairs. You were you were with us street fairs. You were you were with us uh going out to street fairs and giving uh going out to street fairs and giving uh going out to street fairs and giving people asking people questions, asking people asking people questions, asking people asking people questions, asking them to fill out a questionnaire them to fill out a questionnaire them to fill out a questionnaire anonymously. And um and I remember it it anonymously. And um and I remember it it anonymously. And um and I remember it it was one of the organizers of one of the was one of the organizers of one of the was one of the organizers of one of the street fair, but I said, "Well, what street fair, but I said, "Well, what street fair, but I said, "Well, what should we do as an incentive to get should we do as an incentive to get should we do as an incentive to get people?" And they said, "Well, offer people?" And they said, "Well, offer people?" And they said, "Well, offer them scratcher tickets, them scratcher tickets, them scratcher tickets, >> lottery tickets, >> lottery tickets, >> lottery tickets, >> lottery tickets." So So we we asked >> lottery tickets." So So we we asked >> lottery tickets." So So we we asked people, "Will you please answer these people, "Will you please answer these people, "Will you please answer these very personal questions about about who very personal questions about about who very personal questions about about who you have sex with, who you want to have you have sex with, who you want to have you have sex with, who you want to have sex with, etc., and tell us everything sex with, etc., and tell us everything sex with, etc., and tell us everything about yourself anonymously, and we'll about yourself anonymously, and we'll about yourself anonymously, and we'll give you a $1 lottery scratcher people give you a $1 lottery scratcher people give you a $1 lottery scratcher people ticket." Andy, people will do anything ticket." Andy, people will do anything ticket." Andy, people will do anything for a $1 lottery scratcher ticket. I for a $1 lottery scratcher ticket. I for a $1 lottery scratcher ticket. I mean, it was just a which is weird mean, it was just a which is weird mean, it was just a which is weird because you do the math and they're because you do the math and they're because you do the math and they're they're worth like 27 cents, right? But they're worth like 27 cents, right? But they're worth like 27 cents, right? But but but people want them. Um and oh, and but but people want them. Um and oh, and but but people want them. Um and oh, and by the way, can we xerox your hands? And by the way, can we xerox your hands? And by the way, can we xerox your hands? And the last two questions we asked about the last two questions we asked about the last two questions we asked about handedness, but it was really just to to handedness, but it was really just to to handedness, but it was really just to to keep them from panicking. Um, so you keep them from panicking. Um, so you keep them from panicking. Um, so you know, and it, by the way, it was it was know, and it, by the way, it was it was know, and it, by the way, it was it was the least expensive experiment I'd ever the least expensive experiment I'd ever the least expensive experiment I'd ever done in my life because really, you done in my life because really, you done in my life because really, you know, compared to to any experiment with know, compared to to any experiment with know, compared to to any experiment with rat where step one, buy a rat for 20 rat where step one, buy a rat for 20 rat where step one, buy a rat for 20 bucks, right? So it's um so uh and it bucks, right? So it's um so uh and it bucks, right? So it's um so uh and it was an odd experience going in the was an odd experience going in the was an odd experience going in the 7-Eleven that morning and saying, 7-Eleven that morning and saying, 7-Eleven that morning and saying, "Please, I'd like 750 $1 lottery "Please, I'd like 750 $1 lottery "Please, I'd like 750 $1 lottery scratcher tickets." scratcher tickets." scratcher tickets." I'd like to take a quick break to I'd like to take a quick break to I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any David makes protein bars unlike any David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 gram of protein, only 150 has 20 gram of protein, only 150 has 20 gram of protein, only 150 calories, and zero gram of sugar. 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Well, as long as we're getting into the Well, as long as we're getting into the Well, as long as we're getting into the context, it's interesting because you context, it's interesting because you context, it's interesting because you said there there are a lot of uh gay said there there are a lot of uh gay said there there are a lot of uh gay people in the Bay Area, but it was very people in the Bay Area, but it was very people in the Bay Area, but it was very clear, as I recall when doing the study, clear, as I recall when doing the study, clear, as I recall when doing the study, that if we wanted to get a a large that if we wanted to get a a large that if we wanted to get a a large sample population of uh gay men, we sample population of uh gay men, we sample population of uh gay men, we would need to go to the Castro District would need to go to the Castro District would need to go to the Castro District in San Francisco. If we needed to get a in San Francisco. If we needed to get a in San Francisco. If we needed to get a large cohort of gay women, we need to go large cohort of gay women, we need to go large cohort of gay women, we need to go to the Solano Street Fair in Berkeley to the Solano Street Fair in Berkeley to the Solano Street Fair in Berkeley >> and and in Oakland. So there there was a >> and and in Oakland. So there there was a >> and and in Oakland. So there there was a there was a brand new Oakland gay there was a brand new Oakland gay there was a brand new Oakland gay festival that got started and yeah there festival that got started and yeah there festival that got started and yeah there Oakland is a wonderful place to find Oakland is a wonderful place to find Oakland is a wonderful place to find lesbians. So u one of one of the charms lesbians. So u one of one of the charms lesbians. So u one of one of the charms of the place. I thought the whole idea of the place. I thought the whole idea of the place. I thought the whole idea was kind of crazy actually. I mean I was kind of crazy actually. I mean I was kind of crazy actually. I mean I didn't think we'd come up with anything. didn't think we'd come up with anything. didn't think we'd come up with anything. And I insisted on measuring all the all And I insisted on measuring all the all And I insisted on measuring all the all the digits myself which I did twice. the digits myself which I did twice. the digits myself which I did twice. Boring as hell. I recall when we were on Boring as hell. I recall when we were on Boring as hell. I recall when we were on what was like third floor of Tolman Hall what was like third floor of Tolman Hall what was like third floor of Tolman Hall uh and you came running in. uh and you came running in. uh and you came running in. >> I was talking to my adviser, our good >> I was talking to my adviser, our good >> I was talking to my adviser, our good friend Zucker, one of the pioneers of friend Zucker, one of the pioneers of friend Zucker, one of the pioneers of circadian biology, discovered the super circadian biology, discovered the super circadian biology, discovered the super chaos nucleus with Bob Moore and others. chaos nucleus with Bob Moore and others. chaos nucleus with Bob Moore and others. But um and you came running in with with But um and you came running in with with But um and you came running in with with a ruler and you said, "Give me your a ruler and you said, "Give me your a ruler and you said, "Give me your hands." And you grabbed my hands and you hands." And you grabbed my hands and you hands." And you grabbed my hands and you measured them and you go, "Well, that's measured them and you go, "Well, that's measured them and you go, "Well, that's weird cuz it's like different on one weird cuz it's like different on one weird cuz it's like different on one hand than the other." And then you go, hand than the other." And then you go, hand than the other." And then you go, "Okay." and you took the notes and you "Okay." and you took the notes and you "Okay." and you took the notes and you measured his hands and he left and I measured his hands and he left and I measured his hands and he left and I thought, "What in the world is he thought, "What in the world is he thought, "What in the world is he doing?" It turns out that was the early doing?" It turns out that was the early doing?" It turns out that was the early origins of the study. origins of the study. origins of the study. >> Yeah. No, no. And uh anyway, so so I I >> Yeah. No, no. And uh anyway, so so I I >> Yeah. No, no. And uh anyway, so so I I measure these hands and um and I'm doing measure these hands and um and I'm doing measure these hands and um and I'm doing the the the math at the end of the day the the the math at the end of the day the the the math at the end of the day and lo and behold, I mean, I don't I and lo and behold, I mean, I don't I and lo and behold, I mean, I don't I don't see any difference in the digit don't see any difference in the digit don't see any difference in the digit ratios of gay and straight men, right? ratios of gay and straight men, right? ratios of gay and straight men, right? Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Between gay and straight men. >> Between gay and straight men. >> Between gay and straight men. >> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't see any difference >> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't see any difference >> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't see any difference there. which itself is interesting there. which itself is interesting there. which itself is interesting because it implies because it implies because it implies >> more or less equivalent amounts of >> more or less equivalent amounts of >> more or less equivalent amounts of prenatal testosterone exposure prenatal testosterone exposure prenatal testosterone exposure >> which I think is the case. Yes. >> which I think is the case. Yes. >> which I think is the case. Yes. >> And and right now just forgive me but um >> And and right now just forgive me but um >> And and right now just forgive me but um you know might some people might say you know might some people might say you know might some people might say well that's not surprising but in the well that's not surprising but in the well that's not surprising but in the 80s and 90s the Hollywood stereotype of 80s and 90s the Hollywood stereotype of 80s and 90s the Hollywood stereotype of gay men was that they were all very gay men was that they were all very gay men was that they were all very effeminite. effeminite. effeminite. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um since then there's been an evolution. >> Um since then there's been an evolution. >> Um since then there's been an evolution. In fact, I haven't seen it, but many In fact, I haven't seen it, but many In fact, I haven't seen it, but many people I know are very excited about people I know are very excited about people I know are very excited about this recent show about these two gay this recent show about these two gay this recent show about these two gay hockey players where so the whole hockey players where so the whole hockey players where so the whole context is these guys that are very context is these guys that are very context is these guys that are very masculine but are gay, right? So masculine but are gay, right? So masculine but are gay, right? So >> for people hearing this that are younger >> for people hearing this that are younger >> for people hearing this that are younger than 40, they're going to think, well, than 40, they're going to think, well, than 40, they're going to think, well, duh. But for people that grew up in my duh. But for people that grew up in my duh. But for people that grew up in my generation or your generation, it was a generation or your generation, it was a generation or your generation, it was a bit of a shocker to a lot of people. Um bit of a shocker to a lot of people. Um bit of a shocker to a lot of people. Um because depending on their level of because depending on their level of because depending on their level of exposure to the gay community, they may exposure to the gay community, they may exposure to the gay community, they may or may not have realized that not all or may not have realized that not all or may not have realized that not all gay men are uh affeminite. gay men are uh affeminite. gay men are uh affeminite. >> Exactly. No. And and and you know that >> Exactly. No. And and and you know that >> Exactly. No. And and and you know that idea that gay men might have been under idea that gay men might have been under idea that gay men might have been under androenized, there was always a part of androenized, there was always a part of androenized, there was always a part of it that was that always seems strange to it that was that always seems strange to it that was that always seems strange to me. So the big sex differences in human me. So the big sex differences in human me. So the big sex differences in human behavior are not in, you know, math behavior are not in, you know, math behavior are not in, you know, math skills and the verbal skill. Those are skills and the verbal skill. Those are skills and the verbal skill. Those are tiny, right? The really big sex tiny, right? The really big sex tiny, right? The really big sex differences in human behavior are in differences in human behavior are in differences in human behavior are in sexual attitudes. And the biggest sex sexual attitudes. And the biggest sex sexual attitudes. And the biggest sex difference is one sex is much more difference is one sex is much more difference is one sex is much more interested in multiple partners and interested in multiple partners and interested in multiple partners and younger partners than the other. Right? younger partners than the other. Right? younger partners than the other. Right? Everyone knows which sex that is. One uh Everyone knows which sex that is. One uh Everyone knows which sex that is. One uh sex is much more interested in casual sex is much more interested in casual sex is much more interested in casual sex than the other. Everyone knows one sex than the other. Everyone knows one sex than the other. Everyone knows one sex is much more interested in visual sex is much more interested in visual sex is much more interested in visual pornography than the other sex. Those pornography than the other sex. Those pornography than the other sex. Those are huge sex differences compared to are huge sex differences compared to are huge sex differences compared to any, you know, cognitive things. Uh, and any, you know, cognitive things. Uh, and any, you know, cognitive things. Uh, and in all those ways, gay men are totally in all those ways, gay men are totally in all those ways, gay men are totally masculine. masculine. masculine. So, how would that work that that, you So, how would that work that that, you So, how would that work that that, you know, they were underroenized and yet know, they were underroenized and yet know, they were underroenized and yet they have all these sex differences in they have all these sex differences in they have all these sex differences in in sexual attitude? I I think the in sexual attitude? I I think the in sexual attitude? I I think the difference between gay and straight men difference between gay and straight men difference between gay and straight men isn't in how much prenatal testosterone isn't in how much prenatal testosterone isn't in how much prenatal testosterone they got. I think it's in how their they got. I think it's in how their they got. I think it's in how their brains responded to the testosterone brains responded to the testosterone brains responded to the testosterone that they got. We'll we can talk about that they got. We'll we can talk about that they got. We'll we can talk about that some more um later. But back to the that some more um later. But back to the that some more um later. But back to the digit ratios, the lesbians had more digit ratios, the lesbians had more digit ratios, the lesbians had more masculine digit ratios than the straight masculine digit ratios than the straight masculine digit ratios than the straight women on average. And and as you say, women on average. And and as you say, women on average. And and as you say, that's been replicated by many different that's been replicated by many different that's been replicated by many different labs. Dave Puts at at Penn State and uh labs. Dave Puts at at Penn State and uh labs. Dave Puts at at Penn State and uh uh and Ashlin Swift Gant and I recently uh and Ashlin Swift Gant and I recently uh and Ashlin Swift Gant and I recently published a like the third meta analysis published a like the third meta analysis published a like the third meta analysis and I mean it's clear so many people and I mean it's clear so many people and I mean it's clear so many people have seen it. It's there. And and as have seen it. It's there. And and as have seen it. It's there. And and as with Dennis's oto acoustic emissions, I with Dennis's oto acoustic emissions, I with Dennis's oto acoustic emissions, I don't know how to explain that. Why why don't know how to explain that. Why why don't know how to explain that. Why why would would would lesbians have a more masculine digit lesbians have a more masculine digit lesbians have a more masculine digit ratio than straight women? Unless on ratio than straight women? Unless on ratio than straight women? Unless on average they were exposed to more average they were exposed to more average they were exposed to more prenatal testosterone than straight prenatal testosterone than straight prenatal testosterone than straight women. And why would that matter? Unless women. And why would that matter? Unless women. And why would that matter? Unless being exposed to prenatal testosterone being exposed to prenatal testosterone being exposed to prenatal testosterone makes you more inclined to be attracted makes you more inclined to be attracted makes you more inclined to be attracted to women when you grow up. What's really to women when you grow up. What's really to women when you grow up. What's really weird about it, think about the time weird about it, think about the time weird about it, think about the time lag, your first crush, this sudden, this lag, your first crush, this sudden, this lag, your first crush, this sudden, this mysterious, for me, it was like a mysterious, for me, it was like a mysterious, for me, it was like a visitation, right? It's like, where'd visitation, right? It's like, where'd visitation, right? It's like, where'd this come from? Um, that happened six this come from? Um, that happened six this come from? Um, that happened six years after you were out of the womb, years after you were out of the womb, years after you were out of the womb, right? And so it's really strange to right? And so it's really strange to right? And so it's really strange to think that something that happened to think that something that happened to think that something that happened to you before you were born would have an you before you were born would have an you before you were born would have an influence on who you're going to be influence on who you're going to be influence on who you're going to be attracted to 6 10 years later uh when attracted to 6 10 years later uh when attracted to 6 10 years later uh when you have your first crush. Um so it it you have your first crush. Um so it it you have your first crush. Um so it it was uh and I can tell you that when we was uh and I can tell you that when we was uh and I can tell you that when we published that in 2000 um it it did published that in 2000 um it it did published that in 2000 um it it did quite cause quite an uproar. I heard quite cause quite an uproar. I heard quite cause quite an uproar. I heard from a lot of strangers that I'd never from a lot of strangers that I'd never from a lot of strangers that I'd never heard from before. Um and it was pretty heard from before. Um and it was pretty heard from before. Um and it was pretty interesting. Um, of of course there were interesting. Um, of of course there were interesting. Um, of of course there were several people wrote who I did had and several people wrote who I did had and several people wrote who I did had and told me that they were gay and they were told me that they were gay and they were told me that they were gay and they were very positive, very supportive. Um, but very positive, very supportive. Um, but very positive, very supportive. Um, but I got lots of, you know, emails from I got lots of, you know, emails from I got lots of, you know, emails from people saying, I know you're lying. You people saying, I know you're lying. You people saying, I know you're lying. You know, you're making this up to justify know, you're making this up to justify know, you're making this up to justify your gay lifestyle. Uh, you know, it's your gay lifestyle. Uh, you know, it's your gay lifestyle. Uh, you know, it's like, well, okay, except I don't happen like, well, okay, except I don't happen like, well, okay, except I don't happen to be gay. I mean, we we had a nice mix to be gay. I mean, we we had a nice mix to be gay. I mean, we we had a nice mix of orientations on the research team, of orientations on the research team, of orientations on the research team, but people were having a hard time with but people were having a hard time with but people were having a hard time with it. and to assure your your your it. and to assure your your your it. and to assure your your your listeners about if they're looking at listeners about if they're looking at listeners about if they're looking at their hands. If if they're a woman and their hands. If if they're a woman and their hands. If if they're a woman and they looked at the hands and they see they looked at the hands and they see they looked at the hands and they see that the index finger is quite a bit that the index finger is quite a bit that the index finger is quite a bit shorter than the ring finger and they're shorter than the ring finger and they're shorter than the ring finger and they're thinking I thought I was straight, etc. thinking I thought I was straight, etc. thinking I thought I was straight, etc. So, here's a joke that I tell which is So, here's a joke that I tell which is So, here's a joke that I tell which is if you want I'm going to teach you right if you want I'm going to teach you right if you want I'm going to teach you right now. I'm going to you gather a big now. I'm going to you gather a big now. I'm going to you gather a big sample of people and I'm going to teach sample of people and I'm going to teach sample of people and I'm going to teach you how to look at their hands, look at you how to look at their hands, look at you how to look at their hands, look at their right hand and guess their sexual their right hand and guess their sexual their right hand and guess their sexual orientation and you're going to be right orientation and you're going to be right orientation and you're going to be right 95% of the time. Okay? You want to learn 95% of the time. Okay? You want to learn 95% of the time. Okay? You want to learn how? So, so look at the right hand, pay how? So, so look at the right hand, pay how? So, so look at the right hand, pay really careful attention to whether the really careful attention to whether the really careful attention to whether the index finger is shorter than the ring index finger is shorter than the ring index finger is shorter than the ring finger and no matter what you see, guess finger and no matter what you see, guess finger and no matter what you see, guess straight and you will be right 95% of straight and you will be right 95% of straight and you will be right 95% of the time if it was a random sample of the time if it was a random sample of the time if it was a random sample of people. So um so the important thing to people. So um so the important thing to people. So um so the important thing to to get across is that while these to get across is that while these to get across is that while these average differences across group are average differences across group are average differences across group are theoretically important because they do theoretically important because they do theoretically important because they do indeed indicate that lesbians are more indeed indicate that lesbians are more indeed indicate that lesbians are more likely to have been exposed to slightly likely to have been exposed to slightly likely to have been exposed to slightly more testosterone before birth. That more testosterone before birth. That more testosterone before birth. That doesn't mean you can predict how much doesn't mean you can predict how much doesn't mean you can predict how much testosterone one person was exposed to testosterone one person was exposed to testosterone one person was exposed to from their digit ratio because other from their digit ratio because other from their digit ratio because other things influence the diger ratios. things influence the diger ratios. things influence the diger ratios. >> Fascinating study. I got made fun of >> Fascinating study. I got made fun of >> Fascinating study. I got made fun of quite a lot, but you know, I I I thought quite a lot, but you know, I I I thought quite a lot, but you know, I I I thought it was a blast. it was a blast. it was a blast. >> I mean, I mean, some of the more >> I mean, I mean, some of the more >> I mean, I mean, some of the more outrageous things that people have asked outrageous things that people have asked outrageous things that people have asked me about the study over the years, uh, me about the study over the years, uh, me about the study over the years, uh, were, and by the way, they all came from were, and by the way, they all came from were, and by the way, they all came from men, uh, were if I cut off my, uh, index men, uh, were if I cut off my, uh, index men, uh, were if I cut off my, uh, index finger, um, you know, will that raise my finger, um, you know, will that raise my finger, um, you know, will that raise my testosterone? Someone actually asked testosterone? Someone actually asked testosterone? Someone actually asked that. that. that. >> No, it's not reverse causality. >> No, it's not reverse causality. >> No, it's not reverse causality. >> I would have said, well, let's try it >> I would have said, well, let's try it >> I would have said, well, let's try it and see. again now most people I realize and see. again now most people I realize and see. again now most people I realize there are differences across the country there are differences across the country there are differences across the country and the world on this stance but I think and the world on this stance but I think and the world on this stance but I think most people would say yeah like okay most people would say yeah like okay most people would say yeah like okay there's a biological variable um there's a biological variable um there's a biological variable um associated with sexual orientation the associated with sexual orientation the associated with sexual orientation the fact that it's linked to prenatal fact that it's linked to prenatal fact that it's linked to prenatal testosterone is very interesting um and testosterone is very interesting um and testosterone is very interesting um and the question that then comes up is is the question that then comes up is is the question that then comes up is is there anything about behaviors there anything about behaviors there anything about behaviors associated with gay or straight men gay associated with gay or straight men gay associated with gay or straight men gay or straight women that change hormone or straight women that change hormone or straight women that change hormone levels levels levels independent of all this, right? Because independent of all this, right? Because independent of all this, right? Because um put differently, I think for a number um put differently, I think for a number um put differently, I think for a number of years, people were interested in of years, people were interested in of years, people were interested in whether or not gay men, as you pointed whether or not gay men, as you pointed whether or not gay men, as you pointed out, um would have higher or lower out, um would have higher or lower out, um would have higher or lower levels of testosterone. The the levels of testosterone. The the levels of testosterone. The the hypothesis was lower based on the hypothesis was lower based on the hypothesis was lower based on the affeminate stereotype. Turned out affeminate stereotype. Turned out affeminate stereotype. Turned out >> probably the opposite outcome. >> probably the opposite outcome. >> probably the opposite outcome. >> If if anything, you're right. >> If if anything, you're right. >> If if anything, you're right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Anyone that went to gyms in the 1980s >> Anyone that went to gyms in the 1980s >> Anyone that went to gyms in the 1980s and '90s uh would would also realize and '90s uh would would also realize and '90s uh would would also realize that that the low androgen argument was that that the low androgen argument was that that the low androgen argument was wrong. Although steroids become a wrong. Although steroids become a wrong. Although steroids become a problem in gyms too but you know it gets problem in gyms too but you know it gets problem in gyms too but you know it gets confounded but confounded but confounded but >> am I correct in remembering that this >> am I correct in remembering that this >> am I correct in remembering that this effect is also present in frogs or in effect is also present in frogs or in effect is also present in frogs or in mice mice mice >> the sex difference is present in mice >> the sex difference is present in mice >> the sex difference is present in mice >> that's D2D4 ratio difference I find that >> that's D2D4 ratio difference I find that >> that's D2D4 ratio difference I find that amazing amazing amazing >> well I I did too so so uh Wendy Brown >> well I I did too so so uh Wendy Brown >> well I I did too so so uh Wendy Brown and I did that first and you know I'd and I did that first and you know I'd and I did that first and you know I'd worked with mice and rats all my life worked with mice and rats all my life worked with mice and rats all my life but you know I'd never noticed that that but you know I'd never noticed that that but you know I'd never noticed that that that that this is that that the first that that this is that that the first that that this is that that the first digit is the shortest and that the third digit is the shortest and that the third digit is the shortest and that the third digit is the longest and that sometimes digit is the longest and that sometimes digit is the longest and that sometimes the second digit is longer than I you the second digit is longer than I you the second digit is longer than I you know it's like I mean it's you know know it's like I mean it's you know know it's like I mean it's you know evolution is real right that it happened evolution is real right that it happened evolution is real right that it happened uh and so yeah there's a sex difference uh and so yeah there's a sex difference uh and so yeah there's a sex difference there and a group looked at mice and did there and a group looked at mice and did there and a group looked at mice and did lots of genetic manipulations and it lots of genetic manipulations and it lots of genetic manipulations and it turns out that if you if you make the turns out that if you if you make the turns out that if you if you make the androceptor dysfunctional the sex androceptor dysfunctional the sex androceptor dysfunctional the sex difference goes away and they showed difference goes away and they showed difference goes away and they showed that in mice at least there's more that in mice at least there's more that in mice at least there's more androceptor in the the growing bones of androceptor in the the growing bones of androceptor in the the growing bones of the fourth digit than the second digit. the fourth digit than the second digit. the fourth digit than the second digit. And then they showed that um that that's And then they showed that um that that's And then they showed that um that that's why the fourth digit grows a little bit why the fourth digit grows a little bit why the fourth digit grows a little bit more than the second digit. more than the second digit. more than the second digit. >> Beautiful. So the me and we I should >> Beautiful. So the me and we I should >> Beautiful. So the me and we I should have said this earlier. Androgens are have said this earlier. Androgens are have said this earlier. Androgens are things like testosterone um DHT other things like testosterone um DHT other things like testosterone um DHT other other androgens. Um men and women both other androgens. Um men and women both other androgens. Um men and women both have them other animals have them. Um have them other animals have them. Um have them other animals have them. Um incredible. So let's talk about incredible. So let's talk about incredible. So let's talk about effects of testosterone when we're in effects of testosterone when we're in effects of testosterone when we're in the womb. the womb. the womb. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> obviously it's having an organizing >> obviously it's having an organizing >> obviously it's having an organizing effect on the body plan. This D4 D2 effect on the body plan. This D4 D2 effect on the body plan. This D4 D2 ratio, right? ratio, right? ratio, right? >> What about in the brain? What is known >> What about in the brain? What is known >> What about in the brain? What is known about brain differences between men and about brain differences between men and about brain differences between men and women that identify as straight or um women that identify as straight or um women that identify as straight or um gay? Well, in in terms of prenatally, we gay? Well, in in terms of prenatally, we gay? Well, in in terms of prenatally, we don't know. But but the very famous don't know. But but the very famous don't know. But but the very famous study from Simon Ley, who was already a study from Simon Ley, who was already a study from Simon Ley, who was already a highly respected neuroscientist, lots of highly respected neuroscientist, lots of highly respected neuroscientist, lots of wonderful papers in development of the wonderful papers in development of the wonderful papers in development of the visual system. Um, Simon Ley got visual system. Um, Simon Ley got visual system. Um, Simon Ley got everyone's attention well before we did everyone's attention well before we did everyone's attention well before we did when he looked at a brain region in the when he looked at a brain region in the when he looked at a brain region in the hypothalamus, a specific region called hypothalamus, a specific region called hypothalamus, a specific region called the preoptic area or POA. And he looked the preoptic area or POA. And he looked the preoptic area or POA. And he looked there and compared uh the the size of there and compared uh the the size of there and compared uh the the size of the POA in the brains of gay men versus the POA in the brains of gay men versus the POA in the brains of gay men versus straight men. And he looked in the straight men. And he looked in the straight men. And he looked in the preoptic area because in rats there's a preoptic area because in rats there's a preoptic area because in rats there's a very prominent sexual difference or sex very prominent sexual difference or sex very prominent sexual difference or sex dimmorphism and a nucleus in in the rat dimmorphism and a nucleus in in the rat dimmorphism and a nucleus in in the rat brain in the preoptic area and the the brain in the preoptic area and the the brain in the preoptic area and the the nucleus got named the sexually dimorphic nucleus got named the sexually dimorphic nucleus got named the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area of the SD nucleus of the preoptic area of the SD nucleus of the preoptic area of the SD and POA. And Simon knew there was a huge and POA. And Simon knew there was a huge and POA. And Simon knew there was a huge sex difference there in rats. And so he sex difference there in rats. And so he sex difference there in rats. And so he looked at the brains of gay and straight looked at the brains of gay and straight looked at the brains of gay and straight men and found a nucleus there that may men and found a nucleus there that may men and found a nucleus there that may or may not be the same as the SDPA, but or may not be the same as the SDPA, but or may not be the same as the SDPA, but is larger in men than in women. And what is larger in men than in women. And what is larger in men than in women. And what he found was that the the nucleus in gay he found was that the the nucleus in gay he found was that the the nucleus in gay men was smaller than in straight men and men was smaller than in straight men and men was smaller than in straight men and in fact not significantly different from in fact not significantly different from in fact not significantly different from the size of the nucleus in women. the size of the nucleus in women. the size of the nucleus in women. >> So it wasn't hyper male like the finger >> So it wasn't hyper male like the finger >> So it wasn't hyper male like the finger length ratio was. length ratio was. length ratio was. >> No. No. that in that case it indicated >> No. No. that in that case it indicated >> No. No. that in that case it indicated less either less and exposure or less of less either less and exposure or less of less either less and exposure or less of a response to the ant and antigen that a response to the ant and antigen that a response to the ant and antigen that was there. And uh Simon got even more of was there. And uh Simon got even more of was there. And uh Simon got even more of an uproar than I did. Uh published his an uproar than I did. Uh published his an uproar than I did. Uh published his paper in science and uh there were lots paper in science and uh there were lots paper in science and uh there were lots of people that were very skeptical of people that were very skeptical of people that were very skeptical including some neuroscientists but but including some neuroscientists but but including some neuroscientists but but eventually another group replicated it. eventually another group replicated it. eventually another group replicated it. You know You know You know >> that's what I was going to ask because I >> that's what I was going to ask because I >> that's what I was going to ask because I recall that the two major critiques of recall that the two major critiques of recall that the two major critiques of the paper um one was fair in my opinion. the paper um one was fair in my opinion. the paper um one was fair in my opinion. it was that some of the post-mortem it was that some of the post-mortem it was that some of the post-mortem samples were from people who had died of samples were from people who had died of samples were from people who had died of AIDS and so AIDS has some known AIDS and so AIDS has some known AIDS and so AIDS has some known neurodeenerative effects that may or may neurodeenerative effects that may or may neurodeenerative effects that may or may not have impacted the samples although not have impacted the samples although not have impacted the samples although hopefully they control for that and then hopefully they control for that and then hopefully they control for that and then as I recall he also got some push back as I recall he also got some push back as I recall he also got some push back because he is openly gay and people because he is openly gay and people because he is openly gay and people accused him of g uh agended I didn't say accused him of g uh agended I didn't say accused him of g uh agended I didn't say gendered I said agended science gendered I said agended science gendered I said agended science >> yeah that that that he was part of some >> yeah that that that he was part of some >> yeah that that that he was part of some conspiracy a gay agenda to to to to conspiracy a gay agenda to to to to conspiracy a gay agenda to to to to force Americans to regard people with force Americans to regard people with force Americans to regard people with samesex orientation as somehow okay. samesex orientation as somehow okay. samesex orientation as somehow okay. >> But a replication of the study from an >> But a replication of the study from an >> But a replication of the study from an independent group that presumably has no independent group that presumably has no independent group that presumably has no reason to be biased whatsoever. reason to be biased whatsoever. reason to be biased whatsoever. >> They were very skeptical of it. So that >> They were very skeptical of it. So that >> They were very skeptical of it. So that was William Bler who u eventually it it was William Bler who u eventually it it was William Bler who u eventually it it and there's an interesting aspect of it. and there's an interesting aspect of it. and there's an interesting aspect of it. It took him a long time to get a sample It took him a long time to get a sample It took him a long time to get a sample big enough because you know Simon it was big enough because you know Simon it was big enough because you know Simon it was such a horrible time in AIDS epidemic. such a horrible time in AIDS epidemic. such a horrible time in AIDS epidemic. there were so many young men dying um there were so many young men dying um there were so many young men dying um that uh Simon had no trouble finding that uh Simon had no trouble finding that uh Simon had no trouble finding enough brains to do the sample and and enough brains to do the sample and and enough brains to do the sample and and then as treatment got better the the then as treatment got better the the then as treatment got better the the death rates of HIV started going down u death rates of HIV started going down u death rates of HIV started going down u and so it took longer for William Ber to and so it took longer for William Ber to and so it took longer for William Ber to gather the samples but but eventually gather the samples but but eventually gather the samples but but eventually did and even though he was skeptical of did and even though he was skeptical of did and even though he was skeptical of it he saw it too. the the a the question it he saw it too. the the a the question it he saw it too. the the a the question about AIDS. I mean, Simon was able to about AIDS. I mean, Simon was able to about AIDS. I mean, Simon was able to address that in that um he also had some address that in that um he also had some address that in that um he also had some straight men who had AIDS and and he straight men who had AIDS and and he straight men who had AIDS and and he didn't, you know, they didn't they didn't, you know, they didn't they didn't, you know, they didn't they weren't significantly different from weren't significantly different from weren't significantly different from other straight men. Um but but and so it other straight men. Um but but and so it other straight men. Um but but and so it was widely interpreted as proof that was widely interpreted as proof that was widely interpreted as proof that sexual orientation is not a choice, that sexual orientation is not a choice, that sexual orientation is not a choice, that it's something that happens to you. And it's something that happens to you. And it's something that happens to you. And of course, I don't think sexual of course, I don't think sexual of course, I don't think sexual orientation is a choice. That's true. orientation is a choice. That's true. orientation is a choice. That's true. But Simon himself made it clear that he But Simon himself made it clear that he But Simon himself made it clear that he could only look at this nucleus in could only look at this nucleus in could only look at this nucleus in adults, right? You can only look, it's adults, right? You can only look, it's adults, right? You can only look, it's so tiny, the sexual dimmorphic nucleus, so tiny, the sexual dimmorphic nucleus, so tiny, the sexual dimmorphic nucleus, the preoptic area in humans. It's it's the preoptic area in humans. It's it's the preoptic area in humans. It's it's about the size of a grain of sand, about the size of a grain of sand, about the size of a grain of sand, right? So you got to have a microscope right? So you got to have a microscope right? So you got to have a microscope and you can only there there's no and you can only there there's no and you can only there there's no non-invasive way to look at it. And he non-invasive way to look at it. And he non-invasive way to look at it. And he pointed out that he didn't know if what pointed out that he didn't know if what pointed out that he didn't know if what what the order of causation was. He what the order of causation was. He what the order of causation was. He doesn't know if those men had been born doesn't know if those men had been born doesn't know if those men had been born with a smaller SD and POA and that's why with a smaller SD and POA and that's why with a smaller SD and POA and that's why they became gay or did something else they became gay or did something else they became gay or did something else cause them to become gay and also cause cause them to become gay and also cause cause them to become gay and also cause the SDNPA to get smaller and and for the the SDNPA to get smaller and and for the the SDNPA to get smaller and and for the public the idea that a nucleus might public the idea that a nucleus might public the idea that a nucleus might change its size in adulthood maybe that change its size in adulthood maybe that change its size in adulthood maybe that seems kind of like you know unlikely but seems kind of like you know unlikely but seems kind of like you know unlikely but as neuroscientists we know you know that as neuroscientists we know you know that as neuroscientists we know you know that adult brains are changing all the time. adult brains are changing all the time. adult brains are changing all the time. uh in in fact e even in animals Brad uh in in fact e even in animals Brad uh in in fact e even in animals Brad Cook showed that you know there's a Cook showed that you know there's a Cook showed that you know there's a nucleus the medial amydala um there's nucleus the medial amydala um there's nucleus the medial amydala um there's sex difference there but if you take sex difference there but if you take sex difference there but if you take away the testosterone in males sex away the testosterone in males sex away the testosterone in males sex difference goes away in just a matter of difference goes away in just a matter of difference goes away in just a matter of a few weeks so Simon's work on the sdnoa a few weeks so Simon's work on the sdnoa a few weeks so Simon's work on the sdnoa also known asina 3 I won't bother with also known asina 3 I won't bother with also known asina 3 I won't bother with why why why >> unfortunately I remember the full name >> unfortunately I remember the full name >> unfortunately I remember the full name because my brain it's the intercal because my brain it's the intercal because my brain it's the intercal nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus sub nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus sub nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus sub region I'm not saying that to impress region I'm not saying that to impress region I'm not saying that to impress saying when you get to be 50, which I saying when you get to be 50, which I saying when you get to be 50, which I can now say that you wonder why your can now say that you wonder why your can now say that you wonder why your hippocampus remembers certain things hippocampus remembers certain things hippocampus remembers certain things that are like basically totally useless that are like basically totally useless that are like basically totally useless to remember. to remember. to remember. >> I we waste so many synapses on on >> I we waste so many synapses on on >> I we waste so many synapses on on totally useless crap. But but that's not totally useless crap. But but that's not totally useless crap. But but that's not that's that's that's worth holding on that's that's that's worth holding on that's that's that's worth holding on to. You did well. So um but uh so so we to. You did well. So um but uh so so we to. You did well. So um but uh so so we don't know u it's a chicken and egg don't know u it's a chicken and egg don't know u it's a chicken and egg problem. We don't know if um if that problem. We don't know if um if that problem. We don't know if um if that happened um if if they were gay because happened um if if they were gay because happened um if if they were gay because they had a small line of three or do they had a small line of three or do they had a small line of three or do they have a small line of three because they have a small line of three because they have a small line of three because they're gay. So what what I liked about they're gay. So what what I liked about they're gay. So what what I liked about Dennis's oto acoustic emissions and is Dennis's oto acoustic emissions and is Dennis's oto acoustic emissions and is pretty good evidence that that happened pretty good evidence that that happened pretty good evidence that that happened well before they they had a sexual well before they they had a sexual well before they they had a sexual orientation. And and the other thing I orientation. And and the other thing I orientation. And and the other thing I always liked about it is that what well always liked about it is that what well always liked about it is that what well I mean you can't imagine there's a I mean you can't imagine there's a I mean you can't imagine there's a social influence on on dig and and and social influence on on dig and and and social influence on on dig and and and nobody nobody knew about this. So I nobody nobody knew about this. So I nobody nobody knew about this. So I wasn't worried that there were some wasn't worried that there were some wasn't worried that there were some little girls out there that looked at little girls out there that looked at little girls out there that looked at their hand to say gee that looks kind of their hand to say gee that looks kind of their hand to say gee that looks kind of masculine. Maybe I should be a lesbian, masculine. Maybe I should be a lesbian, masculine. Maybe I should be a lesbian, right? Because nobody knew this right? Because nobody knew this right? Because nobody knew this >> until your paper was published. >> until your paper was published. >> until your paper was published. >> Yes. Yeah. I mean, as I recall, there w >> Yes. Yeah. I mean, as I recall, there w >> Yes. Yeah. I mean, as I recall, there w there was some like schoolyard stuff of there was some like schoolyard stuff of there was some like schoolyard stuff of kids looking at each other's hands and kids looking at each other's hands and kids looking at each other's hands and trying to decide who was gay and who was trying to decide who was gay and who was trying to decide who was gay and who was straight. And straight. And straight. And >> you know, every once in a while to this >> you know, every once in a while to this >> you know, every once in a while to this day on on the internet, I'll look at and day on on the internet, I'll look at and day on on the internet, I'll look at and there'll be a little ad over there other there'll be a little ad over there other there'll be a little ad over there other claiming to to tell me something about claiming to to tell me something about claiming to to tell me something about my personality based on the on on on my personality based on the on on on my personality based on the on on on digit ratio length and it's just like, digit ratio length and it's just like, digit ratio length and it's just like, you know, please uh yeah, there's you know, please uh yeah, there's you know, please uh yeah, there's nothing to it don't waste your money, nothing to it don't waste your money, nothing to it don't waste your money, gang. And there's an aspect of this this gang. And there's an aspect of this this gang. And there's an aspect of this this this fact that that the group this fact that that the group this fact that that the group differences were there, but you can't differences were there, but you can't differences were there, but you can't tell about differences between tell about differences between tell about differences between individuals that that I think is the individuals that that I think is the individuals that that I think is the hardest thing for scientists to hardest thing for scientists to hardest thing for scientists to communicate to the public at large. communicate to the public at large. communicate to the public at large. >> You you have a really good way of >> You you have a really good way of >> You you have a really good way of explaining this to people because and explaining this to people because and explaining this to people because and it's an important lesson just in reading it's an important lesson just in reading it's an important lesson just in reading statistics and and making sense of data statistics and and making sense of data statistics and and making sense of data that um I'd love for you to give an that um I'd love for you to give an that um I'd love for you to give an example of how this plays out perhaps in example of how this plays out perhaps in example of how this plays out perhaps in a separate example. psychologist they a separate example. psychologist they a separate example. psychologist they like to talk about how a way of like to talk about how a way of like to talk about how a way of measuring how big a difference is measuring how big a difference is measuring how big a difference is between two groups. So this difference between two groups. So this difference between two groups. So this difference in digit ratios between men and women in digit ratios between men and women in digit ratios between men and women it's it's a relatively small difference. it's it's a relatively small difference. it's it's a relatively small difference. It's like well we measure it in terms of It's like well we measure it in terms of It's like well we measure it in terms of how many standard deviations apart are how many standard deviations apart are how many standard deviations apart are the two means of the populations the two means of the populations the two means of the populations >> the two averages >> the two averages >> the two averages >> the two averages. And uh to give an >> the two averages. And uh to give an >> the two averages. And uh to give an example of that everyone knows about the example of that everyone knows about the example of that everyone knows about the sex difference in human height right sex difference in human height right sex difference in human height right among adults. So that's a huge sex among adults. So that's a huge sex among adults. So that's a huge sex difference. It's one where we're all difference. It's one where we're all difference. It's one where we're all aware of it. And if if nobody had told aware of it. And if if nobody had told aware of it. And if if nobody had told us it was such a thing, we'd notice it us it was such a thing, we'd notice it us it was such a thing, we'd notice it after a while, right? And that that's after a while, right? And that that's after a while, right? And that that's because those two averages and those two because those two averages and those two because those two averages and those two populations are about two standard populations are about two standard populations are about two standard deviations apart. The standard deviation deviations apart. The standard deviation deviations apart. The standard deviation being a measure of how much variability being a measure of how much variability being a measure of how much variability there is in something. So that's a huge there is in something. So that's a huge there is in something. So that's a huge sex difference. And to give you an idea sex difference. And to give you an idea sex difference. And to give you an idea of what that means, if I had you grab a of what that means, if I had you grab a of what that means, if I had you grab a a sample of a thousand people and I'm a sample of a thousand people and I'm a sample of a thousand people and I'm going to tell you one thing about each going to tell you one thing about each going to tell you one thing about each one of them, and that's their height. one of them, and that's their height. one of them, and that's their height. That's all. And now I give you the job. That's all. And now I give you the job. That's all. And now I give you the job. You've got to guess what sex they are. You've got to guess what sex they are. You've got to guess what sex they are. And I can tell you what you want to do And I can tell you what you want to do And I can tell you what you want to do to to maximize your hit rate. Everyone to to maximize your hit rate. Everyone to to maximize your hit rate. Everyone who is 5' 5 and a half, you're going to who is 5' 5 and a half, you're going to who is 5' 5 and a half, you're going to say those are men. And if they're less say those are men. And if they're less say those are men. And if they're less than that, you're going to say they're than that, you're going to say they're than that, you're going to say they're women. and you'll be right about 80% of women. and you'll be right about 80% of women. and you'll be right about 80% of the time, which means you'll be wrong the time, which means you'll be wrong the time, which means you'll be wrong almost 20% of the time, right? And so almost 20% of the time, right? And so almost 20% of the time, right? And so everyone you you can you can see that everyone you you can you can see that everyone you you can you can see that that there's some predictive power that there's some predictive power that there's some predictive power there, but not it's far from perfect. there, but not it's far from perfect. there, but not it's far from perfect. Well, this sex difference in digit Well, this sex difference in digit Well, this sex difference in digit ratios is half a standard deviation, so ratios is half a standard deviation, so ratios is half a standard deviation, so a quarter that. And so that means a quarter that. And so that means a quarter that. And so that means there's much more overlap. and that and there's much more overlap. and that and there's much more overlap. and that and and we know that other things influence and we know that other things influence and we know that other things influence digit ratios too, not just prenatal digit ratios too, not just prenatal digit ratios too, not just prenatal testosterone. And so, uh, this is why testosterone. And so, uh, this is why testosterone. And so, uh, this is why there's no predictive value. I mean, so there's no predictive value. I mean, so there's no predictive value. I mean, so anyone who looked at their hand while we anyone who looked at their hand while we anyone who looked at their hand while we were talking about this and got worried, were talking about this and got worried, were talking about this and got worried, um, I don't know anything about your um, I don't know anything about your um, I don't know anything about your particular prenatal testosterone level, particular prenatal testosterone level, particular prenatal testosterone level, no matter what your digit ratio is. no matter what your digit ratio is. no matter what your digit ratio is. >> What about bisexuality? People who >> What about bisexuality? People who >> What about bisexuality? People who identify as attracted to both men and identify as attracted to both men and identify as attracted to both men and women. And maybe we ask about first women. And maybe we ask about first women. And maybe we ask about first bisexual women, then bisexual men. Is bisexual women, then bisexual men. Is bisexual women, then bisexual men. Is there a pattern in digit ratios that there a pattern in digit ratios that there a pattern in digit ratios that leads anywhere? leads anywhere? leads anywhere? >> I mean, in those days, we didn't have >> I mean, in those days, we didn't have >> I mean, in those days, we didn't have enough people that identified as enough people that identified as enough people that identified as bisexual to to have a reasonable sample. bisexual to to have a reasonable sample. bisexual to to have a reasonable sample. And it's interesting, and that's And it's interesting, and that's And it's interesting, and that's something that's changed, right? I mean, something that's changed, right? I mean, something that's changed, right? I mean, if you do surveys now, especially for if you do surveys now, especially for if you do surveys now, especially for among younger people, there are more among younger people, there are more among younger people, there are more people who report that they are bisexual people who report that they are bisexual people who report that they are bisexual than there were then. So, so I I don't than there were then. So, so I I don't than there were then. So, so I I don't really have anything to say about them. really have anything to say about them. really have anything to say about them. The one thing I will say is I'm sure The one thing I will say is I'm sure The one thing I will say is I'm sure that even among lesbians, there's more that even among lesbians, there's more that even among lesbians, there's more than one pathway, more than one than one pathway, more than one than one pathway, more than one developmental pathway to to to become a developmental pathway to to to become a developmental pathway to to to become a lesbian or to become a gay man, right? I lesbian or to become a gay man, right? I lesbian or to become a gay man, right? I I don't think there's just one thing. I don't think there's just one thing. I don't think there's just one thing. That's not how human behavior, That's not how human behavior, That's not how human behavior, >> but you do think it's based on the data >> but you do think it's based on the data >> but you do think it's based on the data that it's biological. that it's biological. that it's biological. >> Based on that data, I think testosterone >> Based on that data, I think testosterone >> Based on that data, I think testosterone has a say, has a say, has a say, >> right? That it not doesn't mean it's the >> right? That it not doesn't mean it's the >> right? That it not doesn't mean it's the whole package. whole package. whole package. >> Prenatal testosterone. >> Prenatal testosterone. >> Prenatal testosterone. >> Prenatal testosterone. And the reason I >> Prenatal testosterone. And the reason I >> Prenatal testosterone. And the reason I asked that is I mean there are asked that is I mean there are asked that is I mean there are conditions that are not uncommon where conditions that are not uncommon where conditions that are not uncommon where um someone has a particularly stressful um someone has a particularly stressful um someone has a particularly stressful long phase of development where there's long phase of development where there's long phase of development where there's every reason to believe that their every reason to believe that their every reason to believe that their androgens are impacted negatively. androgens are impacted negatively. androgens are impacted negatively. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> There's also every reason to believe >> There's also every reason to believe >> There's also every reason to believe that there are stretches of development that there are stretches of development that there are stretches of development where androgens are increased. Like we where androgens are increased. Like we where androgens are increased. Like we know that people who do a sort of a a know that people who do a sort of a a know that people who do a sort of a a contact sport um or engage in anything contact sport um or engage in anything contact sport um or engage in anything that requires like deliberate aggression that requires like deliberate aggression that requires like deliberate aggression I realize that real martial artist no I realize that real martial artist no I realize that real martial artist no competitive aggression know how to you competitive aggression know how to you competitive aggression know how to you know sort of um gate their levels of know sort of um gate their levels of know sort of um gate their levels of aggression so that they're not they're aggression so that they're not they're aggression so that they're not they're not like in in a fury right um like but not like in in a fury right um like but not like in in a fury right um like but we know that certain types of activities we know that certain types of activities we know that certain types of activities competition etc. I mean, there's no competition etc. I mean, there's no competition etc. I mean, there's no question that those can increase question that those can increase question that those can increase androgen. So, you can imagine there's androgen. So, you can imagine there's androgen. So, you can imagine there's some plasticity postnatally and that some plasticity postnatally and that some plasticity postnatally and that could be before puberty. It could be could be before puberty. It could be could be before puberty. It could be during puberty and and so that's during puberty and and so that's during puberty and and so that's testosterone there. the body as you you testosterone there. the body as you you testosterone there. the body as you you said you said something that even as a said you said something that even as a said you said something that even as a developmental neurobiologist I don't developmental neurobiologist I don't developmental neurobiologist I don't think I'd ever um heard uh stated so think I'd ever um heard uh stated so think I'd ever um heard uh stated so clearly and it's so important that that clearly and it's so important that that clearly and it's so important that that the the rate of brain development from the the rate of brain development from the the rate of brain development from birth until age 12 is at least as fast birth until age 12 is at least as fast birth until age 12 is at least as fast as it was before we're born. as it was before we're born. as it was before we're born. >> Yeah. That I mean the the way to really >> Yeah. That I mean the the way to really >> Yeah. That I mean the the way to really bring that home is to compare human bring that home is to compare human bring that home is to compare human brain growth and chimpanzeee brain brain growth and chimpanzeee brain brain growth and chimpanzeee brain growth. So up until birth, the rate at growth. So up until birth, the rate at growth. So up until birth, the rate at which the brain size increases compared which the brain size increases compared which the brain size increases compared to body size is about the same in humans to body size is about the same in humans to body size is about the same in humans and chimps. And shortly after birth, the and chimps. And shortly after birth, the and chimps. And shortly after birth, the chimpanzeee brain stops growing as fast chimpanzeee brain stops growing as fast chimpanzeee brain stops growing as fast and eventually asmmptotes right away. and eventually asmmptotes right away. and eventually asmmptotes right away. The human brain continues that feverish The human brain continues that feverish The human brain continues that feverish fetal rate of growth until at least six fetal rate of growth until at least six fetal rate of growth until at least six years of age, maybe out there to 10 years of age, maybe out there to 10 years of age, maybe out there to 10 years of age. So, uh, people have years of age. So, uh, people have years of age. So, uh, people have pointed out that in in a real sense, pointed out that in in a real sense, pointed out that in in a real sense, human beings, children are fetuses that human beings, children are fetuses that human beings, children are fetuses that are outside learning a whole bunch of are outside learning a whole bunch of are outside learning a whole bunch of stuff from other people. That's the real stuff from other people. That's the real stuff from other people. That's the real distinctiveness of our species is, you distinctiveness of our species is, you distinctiveness of our species is, you know, we have this protracted childhood know, we have this protracted childhood know, we have this protracted childhood and really intense social learning and, and really intense social learning and, and really intense social learning and, as you say, a fetal rate of growth even as you say, a fetal rate of growth even as you say, a fetal rate of growth even though we're not in the fetus anymore. though we're not in the fetus anymore. though we're not in the fetus anymore. So I guess for me the the idea that So I guess for me the the idea that So I guess for me the the idea that behavior exposure to things uh you know behavior exposure to things uh you know behavior exposure to things uh you know and I don't want to get into veilance of and I don't want to get into veilance of and I don't want to get into veilance of negative positive but sure pesticides negative positive but sure pesticides negative positive but sure pesticides but also you know schoolyard activities but also you know schoolyard activities but also you know schoolyard activities um um um >> if you have and we'll get to this you >> if you have and we'll get to this you >> if you have and we'll get to this you know uh five siblings and it's very know uh five siblings and it's very know uh five siblings and it's very competitive who gets how much pizza I've competitive who gets how much pizza I've competitive who gets how much pizza I've been you know I had one sibling so it been you know I had one sibling so it been you know I had one sibling so it was a little bit you know there was was a little bit you know there was was a little bit you know there was competition but it was different right competition but it was different right competition but it was different right you know these things change hormones you know these things change hormones you know these things change hormones hormones change the brain the brain, as hormones change the brain the brain, as hormones change the brain the brain, as you're explaining, can impact sexual you're explaining, can impact sexual you're explaining, can impact sexual preference. preference. preference. >> What's great about studying hormones and >> What's great about studying hormones and >> What's great about studying hormones and behavior, right, is is that sometimes behavior, right, is is that sometimes behavior, right, is is that sometimes you can control the hormone in animals you can control the hormone in animals you can control the hormone in animals at least. But the hard thing about at least. But the hard thing about at least. But the hard thing about hormones and behavior that people don't hormones and behavior that people don't hormones and behavior that people don't understand is that behavior can affect understand is that behavior can affect understand is that behavior can affect hormones, as you say. In in hormones, as you say. In in hormones, as you say. In in competitions, the winners afterwards are competitions, the winners afterwards are competitions, the winners afterwards are more likely to have higher testosterone more likely to have higher testosterone more likely to have higher testosterone and the losers will have lower. In and the losers will have lower. In and the losers will have lower. In elections, it's been shown that people elections, it's been shown that people elections, it's been shown that people whose candidate won the presidential whose candidate won the presidential whose candidate won the presidential election, they their testosterone levels election, they their testosterone levels election, they their testosterone levels went up a little bit and the people went up a little bit and the people went up a little bit and the people whose whose candidate lost went down a whose whose candidate lost went down a whose whose candidate lost went down a little. And so you'll always have this little. And so you'll always have this little. And so you'll always have this cycle where the the hormone alters the cycle where the the hormone alters the cycle where the the hormone alters the behavior and then the behavior alters behavior and then the behavior alters behavior and then the behavior alters the hormone and and you always have to the hormone and and you always have to the hormone and and you always have to look for ways to try to pin down u the look for ways to try to pin down u the look for ways to try to pin down u the order of of of effects. Um and you know, order of of of effects. Um and you know, order of of of effects. Um and you know, not always easy. The only thing I know not always easy. The only thing I know not always easy. The only thing I know for sure is is that the brain remains for sure is is that the brain remains for sure is is that the brain remains plastic all of our lives. plastic all of our lives. plastic all of our lives. >> Well, that statement is a significant >> Well, that statement is a significant >> Well, that statement is a significant one because I I also believe that the one because I I also believe that the one because I I also believe that the brain remains plastic throughout our brain remains plastic throughout our brain remains plastic throughout our lives. It's always surprising to me that lives. It's always surprising to me that lives. It's always surprising to me that the hypothalamus remains plastic the hypothalamus remains plastic the hypothalamus remains plastic throughout our lives. And I think that's throughout our lives. And I think that's throughout our lives. And I think that's worth perhaps um double clicking on so worth perhaps um double clicking on so worth perhaps um double clicking on so to speak because you know the idea that to speak because you know the idea that to speak because you know the idea that you can learn another language and your you can learn another language and your you can learn another language and your neoortex changes um or you can learn to neoortex changes um or you can learn to neoortex changes um or you can learn to juggle and your you know your neoort juggle and your you know your neoort juggle and your you know your neoort your motor cortex changes your your motor cortex changes your your motor cortex changes your cerebellum changes okay like there's a cerebellum changes okay like there's a cerebellum changes okay like there's a lot of beautiful studies demonstrating lot of beautiful studies demonstrating lot of beautiful studies demonstrating that but when I think about the that but when I think about the that but when I think about the hypothalamus I think about it as hypothalamus I think about it as hypothalamus I think about it as something that's pretty hardwired something that's pretty hardwired something that's pretty hardwired by time puberty wraps up by time puberty wraps up by time puberty wraps up >> but the more I learn and the more data >> but the more I learn and the more data >> but the more I learn and the more data that get published, the more surprised I that get published, the more surprised I that get published, the more surprised I am. I saw a paper just the other day am. I saw a paper just the other day am. I saw a paper just the other day that um the neurons that control that um the neurons that control that um the neurons that control suppression of appetite, suppression of appetite, suppression of appetite, >> these palm C neurons in the arcuate >> these palm C neurons in the arcuate >> these palm C neurons in the arcuate nucleus, there's a population of them nucleus, there's a population of them nucleus, there's a population of them that are sort of undifferentiated that that are sort of undifferentiated that that are sort of undifferentiated that can become, let's just call it pro- can become, let's just call it pro- can become, let's just call it pro- hunger, and by expressing some a hunger, and by expressing some a hunger, and by expressing some a different peptide, neuropeptide Y, and different peptide, neuropeptide Y, and different peptide, neuropeptide Y, and that there's a lot of latestage that there's a lot of latestage that there's a lot of latestage plasticity. And this may explain why plasticity. And this may explain why plasticity. And this may explain why people who reach a certain level of people who reach a certain level of people who reach a certain level of obesity may actually find that they're obesity may actually find that they're obesity may actually find that they're hungrier despite not needing food. So hungrier despite not needing food. So hungrier despite not needing food. So it's fascinating to me how these deeper it's fascinating to me how these deeper it's fascinating to me how these deeper brain structures may actually remain brain structures may actually remain brain structures may actually remain plastic. plastic. plastic. >> I think both your statements are true. I >> I think both your statements are true. I >> I think both your statements are true. I I I think it's probably true that the I I think it's probably true that the I I think it's probably true that the neoortex is more plastic than the neoortex is more plastic than the neoortex is more plastic than the hypothalamus, but it's a matter of hypothalamus, but it's a matter of hypothalamus, but it's a matter of relativity. And so as you say, the one relativity. And so as you say, the one relativity. And so as you say, the one thing we know is that there's plenty thing we know is that there's plenty thing we know is that there's plenty plasticity there. The the other thing I plasticity there. The the other thing I plasticity there. The the other thing I noticed, so I I' I've gone to society noticed, so I I' I've gone to society noticed, so I I' I've gone to society for neuroscience meetings pretty for neuroscience meetings pretty for neuroscience meetings pretty regularly every year since 1977. And regularly every year since 1977. And regularly every year since 1977. And after a while, I noticed something. after a while, I noticed something. after a while, I noticed something. Every year when I went to the Every year when I went to the Every year when I went to the neuroscience meeting, the brain was more neuroscience meeting, the brain was more neuroscience meeting, the brain was more plastic than it was the year before, plastic than it was the year before, plastic than it was the year before, right? I mean, because there more and right? I mean, because there more and right? I mean, because there more and more of these demonstrations and it's more of these demonstrations and it's more of these demonstrations and it's like um I I you know, I think synapses like um I I you know, I think synapses like um I I you know, I think synapses can come and go just about anywhere. Um can come and go just about anywhere. Um can come and go just about anywhere. Um and so hardwired let let's let's say and so hardwired let let's let's say and so hardwired let let's let's say there's might be less plasticity in the there's might be less plasticity in the there's might be less plasticity in the hypothalamus surely. So um but that hypothalamus surely. So um but that hypothalamus surely. So um but that doesn't mean there's none. doesn't mean there's none. doesn't mean there's none. >> As many of you know, I've been taking >> As many of you know, I've been taking >> As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've before I ever had a podcast, and I've before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The been taking it every day since. The been taking it every day since. 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Again, that's drink AG1 with the numeral drink AG1 with the numeral drink AG1 with the numeral one.com/huberman one.com/huberman one.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a to get six free travel packs and a to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription. What are some of the other subscription. What are some of the other subscription. What are some of the other effects in human studies of behavior effects in human studies of behavior effects in human studies of behavior impacting hormones that come to mind for impacting hormones that come to mind for impacting hormones that come to mind for you? I mean, it's been a while since you? I mean, it's been a while since you? I mean, it's been a while since we've touched into this and we haven't we've touched into this and we haven't we've touched into this and we haven't done it much on this podcast. I mean, done it much on this podcast. I mean, done it much on this podcast. I mean, obviously competition, winners, losers. obviously competition, winners, losers. obviously competition, winners, losers. You explained the data there. Um, what You explained the data there. Um, what You explained the data there. Um, what are some other scenarios, just studies are some other scenarios, just studies are some other scenarios, just studies that that have been striking to you or that that have been striking to you or that that have been striking to you or that have stood out over the years? that have stood out over the years? that have stood out over the years? >> No, I think for testosterone, I think >> No, I think for testosterone, I think >> No, I think for testosterone, I think the big ones have been have have been the big ones have been have have been the big ones have been have have been competition, you know, between males. competition, you know, between males. competition, you know, between males. Um, and no, I don't, you know, I mean, Um, and no, I don't, you know, I mean, Um, and no, I don't, you know, I mean, there there's a stress response, but there there's a stress response, but there there's a stress response, but that's a whole other thing. that's a whole other thing. that's a whole other thing. >> What about sex behavior itself? >> What about sex behavior itself? >> What about sex behavior itself? >> In animals, at least, we know that that >> In animals, at least, we know that that >> In animals, at least, we know that that there's a relationship there that that there's a relationship there that that there's a relationship there that that in in males, in males of most species, in in males, in males of most species, in in males, in males of most species, let's take rats, uh, if you take away let's take rats, uh, if you take away let's take rats, uh, if you take away the testosterone, within a few weeks, the testosterone, within a few weeks, the testosterone, within a few weeks, they'll they'll stop mounting they'll they'll stop mounting they'll they'll stop mounting altogether. And if you give them altogether. And if you give them altogether. And if you give them testosterone, after a few weeks, they testosterone, after a few weeks, they testosterone, after a few weeks, they they start mounting again, right? So, we they start mounting again, right? So, we they start mounting again, right? So, we know that that um plasticity is is there know that that um plasticity is is there know that that um plasticity is is there and we know that it's driven by and we know that it's driven by and we know that it's driven by testosterone. But, uh in in animals testosterone. But, uh in in animals testosterone. But, uh in in animals where they're in charge of their own where they're in charge of their own where they're in charge of their own testosterone, we've known for a long testosterone, we've known for a long testosterone, we've known for a long time that if a male is exposed to the time that if a male is exposed to the time that if a male is exposed to the odors of a receptive female, that causes odors of a receptive female, that causes odors of a receptive female, that causes a spike in their testosterone. And so, a spike in their testosterone. And so, a spike in their testosterone. And so, uh that's kind of preparing them for uh that's kind of preparing them for uh that's kind of preparing them for maybe maybe some maybe I'll be lucky. maybe maybe some maybe I'll be lucky. maybe maybe some maybe I'll be lucky. Maybe there's something coming down the Maybe there's something coming down the Maybe there's something coming down the pike. Uh and so we know that that's a pike. Uh and so we know that that's a pike. Uh and so we know that that's a reciprocal relationship uh when the reciprocal relationship uh when the reciprocal relationship uh when the animal's in charge of the of the animal's in charge of the of the animal's in charge of the of the hormone. hormone. hormone. >> For the longest time, thanks to your >> For the longest time, thanks to your >> For the longest time, thanks to your textbooks, and by the way, folks, uh textbooks, and by the way, folks, uh textbooks, and by the way, folks, uh Mark has um authored some of the most Mark has um authored some of the most Mark has um authored some of the most important textbooks on hormones and important textbooks on hormones and important textbooks on hormones and behavior, developmental neurobiology. behavior, developmental neurobiology. behavior, developmental neurobiology. He's a he's a true scholar of the whole He's a he's a true scholar of the whole He's a he's a true scholar of the whole field. And so immensely grateful to him field. And so immensely grateful to him field. And so immensely grateful to him that those textbooks have formed the that those textbooks have formed the that those textbooks have formed the backbone of a lot of uh solo episodes of backbone of a lot of uh solo episodes of backbone of a lot of uh solo episodes of the podcast. So um you know the textbook the podcast. So um you know the textbook the podcast. So um you know the textbook version of male versus female sexual version of male versus female sexual version of male versus female sexual behavior has been a story about females behavior has been a story about females behavior has been a story about females having a circuit that goes from brain to having a circuit that goes from brain to having a circuit that goes from brain to body to control this thing they call body to control this thing they call body to control this thing they call lordosis the arching of the lower back lordosis the arching of the lower back lordosis the arching of the lower back the receptivity the willingness to mate the receptivity the willingness to mate the receptivity the willingness to mate and the males having a circuit that goes and the males having a circuit that goes and the males having a circuit that goes from brain to spinal cord to body um from brain to spinal cord to body um from brain to spinal cord to body um involving uh arousal erection mount involving uh arousal erection mount involving uh arousal erection mount counting, um, insertion, ejaculation. I counting, um, insertion, ejaculation. I counting, um, insertion, ejaculation. I mean, your lab and others has really mean, your lab and others has really mean, your lab and others has really parsed this, uh, right down to the the parsed this, uh, right down to the the parsed this, uh, right down to the the details. And yet, of course, people have details. And yet, of course, people have details. And yet, of course, people have sex that way, but also other ways. And sex that way, but also other ways. And sex that way, but also other ways. And so, for a lot of people who aren't so, for a lot of people who aren't so, for a lot of people who aren't familiar with hormones and neural familiar with hormones and neural familiar with hormones and neural circuits and behavior, the sort of circuits and behavior, the sort of circuits and behavior, the sort of strict context kind of is is still forms strict context kind of is is still forms strict context kind of is is still forms the framework, you know. I mean, I I've the framework, you know. I mean, I I've the framework, you know. I mean, I I've learned and I'm now fortunate that this learned and I'm now fortunate that this learned and I'm now fortunate that this podcast has been around more than five podcast has been around more than five podcast has been around more than five years, so I no longer have to tap dance years, so I no longer have to tap dance years, so I no longer have to tap dance around things, right? So, people will around things, right? So, people will around things, right? So, people will say, "Oh, well, you know, there's this say, "Oh, well, you know, there's this say, "Oh, well, you know, there's this lordosis behavior in the female. She's lordosis behavior in the female. She's lordosis behavior in the female. She's she's receptive um or not. Um he mounts, she's receptive um or not. Um he mounts, she's receptive um or not. Um he mounts, etc." And then there's gay men who have etc." And then there's gay men who have etc." And then there's gay men who have to have sex a certain way that mimics to have sex a certain way that mimics to have sex a certain way that mimics the female sex pattern of behavior. And the female sex pattern of behavior. And the female sex pattern of behavior. And so, people do this onetoone, right? And so, people do this onetoone, right? And so, people do this onetoone, right? And I think that it's understandable why I think that it's understandable why I think that it's understandable why they do that if they're not they do that if they're not they do that if they're not >> educated. But how should we make sense >> educated. But how should we make sense >> educated. But how should we make sense of these biological circuits that are in of these biological circuits that are in of these biological circuits that are in the textbooks that define stereotyped the textbooks that define stereotyped the textbooks that define stereotyped literally motor behavior? It's almost literally motor behavior? It's almost literally motor behavior? It's almost like saying like like females have sex like saying like like females have sex like saying like like females have sex this way with males, males have sex this this way with males, males have sex this this way with males, males have sex this way with females. But then the caveat is way with females. But then the caveat is way with females. But then the caveat is always like, oh, but in humans all that always like, oh, but in humans all that always like, oh, but in humans all that goes away and there's these like bonabos goes away and there's these like bonabos goes away and there's these like bonabos that are a little bit more like humans. that are a little bit more like humans. that are a little bit more like humans. So did we waste all our time um studying So did we waste all our time um studying So did we waste all our time um studying that stuff? I mean really that stuff? I mean really that stuff? I mean really >> and you're getting at exactly what every >> and you're getting at exactly what every >> and you're getting at exactly what every textbook author has to deal with, right? textbook author has to deal with, right? textbook author has to deal with, right? which is, you know, uh, as the old joke which is, you know, uh, as the old joke which is, you know, uh, as the old joke go, you you you you look where the light go, you you you you look where the light go, you you you you look where the light is, right? So, we know so much more is, right? So, we know so much more is, right? So, we know so much more about the circuits that are involved in about the circuits that are involved in about the circuits that are involved in the motor behaviors because they're the motor behaviors because they're the motor behaviors because they're relatively easy to trace and relatively relatively easy to trace and relatively relatively easy to trace and relatively easy to manipulate and relatively easy easy to manipulate and relatively easy easy to manipulate and relatively easy to to study. We know lots about the to to study. We know lots about the to to study. We know lots about the motor patterns in animals. We know a lot motor patterns in animals. We know a lot motor patterns in animals. We know a lot less about the motivational less about the motivational less about the motivational patterns in animals which in human patterns in animals which in human patterns in animals which in human sexual behavior is I mean in many ways sexual behavior is I mean in many ways sexual behavior is I mean in many ways that's the whole show you know that's that's the whole show you know that's that's the whole show you know that's that's really what's uh and and we don't that's really what's uh and and we don't that's really what's uh and and we don't really have good animal models of of really have good animal models of of really have good animal models of of libido right and this was brought home libido right and this was brought home libido right and this was brought home to me many years ago now I I was on a to me many years ago now I I was on a to me many years ago now I I was on a session of 60 Minutes the CBS news session of 60 Minutes the CBS news session of 60 Minutes the CBS news program and uh Leslie Stall was there in program and uh Leslie Stall was there in program and uh Leslie Stall was there in our lab. I mean, the producers had our lab. I mean, the producers had our lab. I mean, the producers had called me up and said, you know, can you called me up and said, you know, can you called me up and said, you know, can you show us a way that that early show us a way that that early show us a way that that early testosterone exposure changes behavior testosterone exposure changes behavior testosterone exposure changes behavior permanently. And I said, "Sure, I can do permanently. And I said, "Sure, I can do permanently. And I said, "Sure, I can do that. Give me some time." So, I went to that. Give me some time." So, I went to that. Give me some time." So, I went to the lab and castrated a bunch of rats on the lab and castrated a bunch of rats on the lab and castrated a bunch of rats on the day of birth. I know how to do that. the day of birth. I know how to do that. the day of birth. I know how to do that. I'm not proud of it, but I I know how to I'm not proud of it, but I I know how to I'm not proud of it, but I I know how to do that. Um, and they came three months do that. Um, and they came three months do that. Um, and they came three months later, and uh, so I I showed them those later, and uh, so I I showed them those later, and uh, so I I showed them those motor patterns you talk about. So, motor patterns you talk about. So, motor patterns you talk about. So, here's a typical female. I've given her here's a typical female. I've given her here's a typical female. I've given her hormones, estrogen, progesterone, so I hormones, estrogen, progesterone, so I hormones, estrogen, progesterone, so I know she's going to be receptive. And know she's going to be receptive. And know she's going to be receptive. And here's a male rat that I know has had here's a male rat that I know has had here's a male rat that I know has had lots of experience copulating. And uh lots of experience copulating. And uh lots of experience copulating. And uh Leslie immediately dubbed him Romeo. Leslie immediately dubbed him Romeo. Leslie immediately dubbed him Romeo. Okay. Well, this is Romeo. And she hates Okay. Well, this is Romeo. And she hates Okay. Well, this is Romeo. And she hates rats, by the way. So, she she was she rats, by the way. So, she she was she rats, by the way. So, she she was she was very brave. And so, I I drop a was very brave. And so, I I drop a was very brave. And so, I I drop a female on top of Romeo and he starts female on top of Romeo and he starts female on top of Romeo and he starts mounting and she shows the Lordosis mounting and she shows the Lordosis mounting and she shows the Lordosis posture. And it's all beautiful and posture. And it's all beautiful and posture. And it's all beautiful and easy. And we do that several. I said, easy. And we do that several. I said, easy. And we do that several. I said, "Now I'm I'm going to drop a male, a "Now I'm I'm going to drop a male, a "Now I'm I'm going to drop a male, a control male in." And Romeo, of course, control male in." And Romeo, of course, control male in." And Romeo, of course, you know, you don't know unless you try. you know, you don't know unless you try. you know, you don't know unless you try. He mounts several times and the male rat He mounts several times and the male rat He mounts several times and the male rat acts like nothing's going on. I mean, acts like nothing's going on. I mean, acts like nothing's going on. I mean, it's just a bored thing on Earth. And it's just a bored thing on Earth. And it's just a bored thing on Earth. And Romeo eventually gives up. Now I drop Romeo eventually gives up. Now I drop Romeo eventually gives up. Now I drop into the cage a a male rat who I into the cage a a male rat who I into the cage a a male rat who I castrated on the day of birth 90 days castrated on the day of birth 90 days castrated on the day of birth 90 days before and I've given him the same before and I've given him the same before and I've given him the same hormones I gave the female to make her hormones I gave the female to make her hormones I gave the female to make her receptive. Romeo hops on and sure enough receptive. Romeo hops on and sure enough receptive. Romeo hops on and sure enough a beautiful lordosis right that of the a beautiful lordosis right that of the a beautiful lordosis right that of the sort that the that the control male sort that the that the control male sort that the that the control male never showed. So here this pre this this never showed. So here this pre this this never showed. So here this pre this this neonataly castrated male is showing very neonataly castrated male is showing very neonataly castrated male is showing very female-like patterns female-like patterns female-like patterns and Miss Stall kept asking me would you and Miss Stall kept asking me would you and Miss Stall kept asking me would you say this is a gay rat say this is a gay rat say this is a gay rat and it's you know I'm sitting there and and it's you know I'm sitting there and and it's you know I'm sitting there and I'm definitely in a tough spot because I I'm definitely in a tough spot because I I'm definitely in a tough spot because I don't think my rats have an orientation. don't think my rats have an orientation. don't think my rats have an orientation. I mean we we just saw Romeo happily I mean we we just saw Romeo happily I mean we we just saw Romeo happily mount any rat I he threw in the cage mount any rat I he threw in the cage mount any rat I he threw in the cage because what do you know? You know try because what do you know? You know try because what do you know? You know try your luck. Um, and so, uh, you know, she your luck. Um, and so, uh, you know, she your luck. Um, and so, uh, you know, she asked me several and I I knew she wanted asked me several and I I knew she wanted asked me several and I I knew she wanted me to say that, but I said, "What I me to say that, but I said, "What I me to say that, but I said, "What I would say, I don't remember exactly what would say, I don't remember exactly what would say, I don't remember exactly what ended up in the final." What I would say ended up in the final." What I would say ended up in the final." What I would say is that this is a rat whose sexual is that this is a rat whose sexual is that this is a rat whose sexual behavior has been permanently changed behavior has been permanently changed behavior has been permanently changed because of something that happened to because of something that happened to because of something that happened to him a long time ago at the very him a long time ago at the very him a long time ago at the very beginning of development. And, and beginning of development. And, and beginning of development. And, and really, that's the best I can do in really, that's the best I can do in really, that's the best I can do in terms of any rat model of sexual terms of any rat model of sexual terms of any rat model of sexual orientation. I don't think my rats have orientation. I don't think my rats have orientation. I don't think my rats have a sexual orientation. If I give the a sexual orientation. If I give the a sexual orientation. If I give the female those hormones, she's going to female those hormones, she's going to female those hormones, she's going to show ordosis to whoever mounts her. And show ordosis to whoever mounts her. And show ordosis to whoever mounts her. And my male rat, he he will mount any rat he my male rat, he he will mount any rat he my male rat, he he will mount any rat he comes across just in case he gets a word comes across just in case he gets a word comes across just in case he gets a word ordosis out of them. ordosis out of them. ordosis out of them. >> Well, good on you for not um getting uh >> Well, good on you for not um getting uh >> Well, good on you for not um getting uh coralled into giving a particular coralled into giving a particular coralled into giving a particular answer. Uh I've recently joined CBS as a answer. Uh I've recently joined CBS as a answer. Uh I've recently joined CBS as a correspondent. If we have this correspondent. If we have this correspondent. If we have this conversation on 60 Minutes, I promise to conversation on 60 Minutes, I promise to conversation on 60 Minutes, I promise to not try and force an answer. Romeo is an not try and force an answer. Romeo is an not try and force an answer. Romeo is an interesting um case because I think for interesting um case because I think for interesting um case because I think for most people, including myself, um I most people, including myself, um I most people, including myself, um I thought that you were going to say that thought that you were going to say that thought that you were going to say that Romeo was willing to um try to mount a Romeo was willing to um try to mount a Romeo was willing to um try to mount a female female female >> if she was receptive, he would mate. If >> if she was receptive, he would mate. If >> if she was receptive, he would mate. If not, he wouldn't. Um but I was surprised not, he wouldn't. Um but I was surprised not, he wouldn't. Um but I was surprised that he would try to mount a male as that he would try to mount a male as that he would try to mount a male as well. That doesn't align, at least with well. That doesn't align, at least with well. That doesn't align, at least with my experience, of of male human my experience, of of male human my experience, of of male human behavior. behavior. behavior. >> Well, certainly not. That's right. This >> Well, certainly not. That's right. This >> Well, certainly not. That's right. This is the thing that's distinctive about is the thing that's distinctive about is the thing that's distinctive about humans is we're not actually that humans is we're not actually that humans is we're not actually that particular about what particular particular about what particular particular about what particular behaviors we engage in, what motor behaviors we engage in, what motor behaviors we engage in, what motor behaviors, and we're overwhelmingly behaviors, and we're overwhelmingly behaviors, and we're overwhelmingly interested in who our partner is. Right? interested in who our partner is. Right? interested in who our partner is. Right? That is an overriding concern that that That is an overriding concern that that That is an overriding concern that that I don't think my rats have. I think I I don't think my rats have. I think I I don't think my rats have. I think I think few animals do. Here's the you're think few animals do. Here's the you're think few animals do. Here's the you're the anthropologist from Mars and um and the anthropologist from Mars and um and the anthropologist from Mars and um and I tell you here's a person that 50% I tell you here's a person that 50% I tell you here's a person that 50% here's whoever's the sexiest man alive here's whoever's the sexiest man alive here's whoever's the sexiest man alive this year. People magazine or I don't this year. People magazine or I don't this year. People magazine or I don't know who that happens to be. Well, this know who that happens to be. Well, this know who that happens to be. Well, this is an interesting discussion alto is an interesting discussion alto is an interesting discussion alto together because there's this people together because there's this people together because there's this people have been lining up the images of these have been lining up the images of these have been lining up the images of these people and claiming that they're sort of people and claiming that they're sort of people and claiming that they're sort of like this eff like effeminite drift that like this eff like effeminite drift that like this eff like effeminite drift that takes us back to a time in the early 90s takes us back to a time in the early 90s takes us back to a time in the early 90s when there was this sort of revision when there was this sort of revision when there was this sort of revision about male male facial. We can get back about male male facial. We can get back about male male facial. We can get back to that. But yeah, yeah, it's not the to that. But yeah, yeah, it's not the to that. But yeah, yeah, it's not the point being that it's not fixed. point being that it's not fixed. point being that it's not fixed. >> Who? >> Who? >> Who? >> Yes. Yeah. Well, well, whoever, let's >> Yes. Yeah. Well, well, whoever, let's >> Yes. Yeah. Well, well, whoever, let's say it's George Clooney. So, uh, so say it's George Clooney. So, uh, so say it's George Clooney. So, uh, so here's someone that half the planet here's someone that half the planet here's someone that half the planet believes is an ideal sexual partner, believes is an ideal sexual partner, believes is an ideal sexual partner, right? But the other half of the planet right? But the other half of the planet right? But the other half of the planet finds him totally unacceptable, finds him totally unacceptable, finds him totally unacceptable, even if the behaviors they engaged in even if the behaviors they engaged in even if the behaviors they engaged in would be pretty much the same. And so, would be pretty much the same. And so, would be pretty much the same. And so, you know, in terms of positions and you know, in terms of positions and you know, in terms of positions and who's doing what to whose genitalia, who's doing what to whose genitalia, who's doing what to whose genitalia, etc. I mean for for for most people etc. I mean for for for most people etc. I mean for for for most people it it isn't that there has to be one it it isn't that there has to be one it it isn't that there has to be one particular act. I suppose there's some particular act. I suppose there's some particular act. I suppose there's some but for most people there maybe a but for most people there maybe a but for most people there maybe a variety of acts that they that they want variety of acts that they that they want variety of acts that they that they want to be engaged in with that other person to be engaged in with that other person to be engaged in with that other person and their overwhelming concern is the and their overwhelming concern is the and their overwhelming concern is the the gender of that other person or the the gender of that other person or the the gender of that other person or the sex of that other person. Um you know sex of that other person. Um you know sex of that other person. Um you know it's it's hard to have an animal model it's it's hard to have an animal model it's it's hard to have an animal model of that. I I actually do know of one of that. I I actually do know of one of that. I I actually do know of one example in sheep if you want to talk example in sheep if you want to talk example in sheep if you want to talk about this about this about this >> of all things. >> of all things. >> of all things. >> Yes. Oh, I I I I noticed it. So, um so, >> Yes. Oh, I I I I noticed it. So, um so, >> Yes. Oh, I I I I noticed it. So, um so, uh Chuck Rosselli out at Oregon, he's uh Chuck Rosselli out at Oregon, he's uh Chuck Rosselli out at Oregon, he's the one that studied this very the one that studied this very the one that studied this very carefully. I guess shepherds have known carefully. I guess shepherds have known carefully. I guess shepherds have known for ages, um that in any herd, there are for ages, um that in any herd, there are for ages, um that in any herd, there are some rams who will not mount a female some rams who will not mount a female some rams who will not mount a female ever and keep mounting other males. And ever and keep mounting other males. And ever and keep mounting other males. And of course, to maintain a shepherd, of course, to maintain a shepherd, of course, to maintain a shepherd, to maintain a herd, you don't need every to maintain a herd, you don't need every to maintain a herd, you don't need every male to reproduce. So, but in the old male to reproduce. So, but in the old male to reproduce. So, but in the old days, they got those males got sent off days, they got those males got sent off days, they got those males got sent off to solder, right? Well, um, hearing to solder, right? Well, um, hearing to solder, right? Well, um, hearing these rumors, uh, Chuck did these tests these rumors, uh, Chuck did these tests these rumors, uh, Chuck did these tests where he would put a bunch of females where he would put a bunch of females where he would put a bunch of females that are in stocks, so they can't move that are in stocks, so they can't move that are in stocks, so they can't move and they're all ready for mating. And he and they're all ready for mating. And he and they're all ready for mating. And he put a ram in with them. And most rams, put a ram in with them. And most rams, put a ram in with them. And most rams, of course, will mount the females. He he of course, will mount the females. He he of course, will mount the females. He he puts in these rams that that prefer puts in these rams that that prefer puts in these rams that that prefer males. If there's a variety of sheep's males. If there's a variety of sheep's males. If there's a variety of sheep's butts sticking at him out at him, uh butts sticking at him out at him, uh butts sticking at him out at him, uh he'll mount males, including sometimes, he'll mount males, including sometimes, he'll mount males, including sometimes, you know, having intermission through you know, having intermission through you know, having intermission through the anus and all the way to ejaculation the anus and all the way to ejaculation the anus and all the way to ejaculation and and he never mounts a female. In and and he never mounts a female. In and and he never mounts a female. In some cases, they'll have one of these some cases, they'll have one of these some cases, they'll have one of these I'm going to call them gay rams. I think I'm going to call them gay rams. I think I'm going to call them gay rams. I think I think they have an orientation. He'll I think they have an orientation. He'll I think they have an orientation. He'll put the gay ram where there's a dozen put the gay ram where there's a dozen put the gay ram where there's a dozen females and he might be in that paddic females and he might be in that paddic females and he might be in that paddic for 12 hours and never mount a single for 12 hours and never mount a single for 12 hours and never mount a single female. female. female. >> Highly unusual for male rams. >> Highly unusual for male rams. >> Highly unusual for male rams. >> And these are not typical ram there. >> And these are not typical ram there. >> And these are not typical ram there. It's like a small percentage of the It's like a small percentage of the It's like a small percentage of the population. And um and I don't know how population. And um and I don't know how population. And um and I don't know how to explain that. I mean, you would think to explain that. I mean, you would think to explain that. I mean, you would think that the that these gay rams that well, that the that these gay rams that well, that the that these gay rams that well, you know, an ejaculation is an you know, an ejaculation is an you know, an ejaculation is an ejaculation, right? An orgasm is an ejaculation, right? An orgasm is an ejaculation, right? An orgasm is an orgasm. I presume they have or you you orgasm. I presume they have or you you orgasm. I presume they have or you you would think that at some point that well would think that at some point that well would think that at some point that well there's nothing else to do in here. I'll there's nothing else to do in here. I'll there's nothing else to do in here. I'll mount one of these and they never do. mount one of these and they never do. mount one of these and they never do. And I don't know how you can explain And I don't know how you can explain And I don't know how you can explain that except that there's some aversive that except that there's some aversive that except that there's some aversive component that that that that rams do component that that that that rams do component that that that that rams do care about the sex of their partner and care about the sex of their partner and care about the sex of their partner and that and that for these gay rams um that and that for these gay rams um that and that for these gay rams um there's some aversive component to that. there's some aversive component to that. there's some aversive component to that. By the way, Chuck told me uh not too By the way, Chuck told me uh not too By the way, Chuck told me uh not too long ago, there's a company that has long ago, there's a company that has long ago, there's a company that has identified these gay rams and decided identified these gay rams and decided identified these gay rams and decided that instead of sending them off to that instead of sending them off to that instead of sending them off to slaughter, they're going to harvest slaughter, they're going to harvest slaughter, they're going to harvest their wool and sell them as and and make their wool and sell them as and and make their wool and sell them as and and make them into clothing. So, you you can buy them into clothing. So, you you can buy them into clothing. So, you you can buy you can buy um wool clothing that came you can buy um wool clothing that came you can buy um wool clothing that came from gay rams and and know that you from gay rams and and know that you from gay rams and and know that you saved them from the slaughterhouse. saved them from the slaughterhouse. saved them from the slaughterhouse. >> There's no response that's appropriate >> There's no response that's appropriate >> There's no response that's appropriate to to that statement. And apparently to to that statement. And apparently to to that statement. And apparently they apparently they they you know they they apparently they they you know they they apparently they they you know they they're out of stock. So it's it's been they're out of stock. So it's it's been they're out of stock. So it's it's been a big success. a big success. a big success. >> Actually I can think of about 50 >> Actually I can think of about 50 >> Actually I can think of about 50 different responses to that. None none different responses to that. None none different responses to that. None none of which are are appropriate or have any of which are are appropriate or have any of which are are appropriate or have any real conceptual uh importance. So I I I real conceptual uh importance. So I I I real conceptual uh importance. So I I I won't I won't say fascinating because won't I won't say fascinating because won't I won't say fascinating because rams while of course they have rams while of course they have rams while of course they have sociodnamics sociodnamics sociodnamics um presumably there isn't pressure uh um presumably there isn't pressure uh um presumably there isn't pressure uh independent of reproductive pressure to independent of reproductive pressure to independent of reproductive pressure to um to be a gay ram or a straight ram. um to be a gay ram or a straight ram. um to be a gay ram or a straight ram. And I I guess I I left off the kicker, And I I guess I I left off the kicker, And I I guess I I left off the kicker, which is uh Chuck eventually dissected which is uh Chuck eventually dissected which is uh Chuck eventually dissected the preoptic areas of these various the preoptic areas of these various the preoptic areas of these various rams. And he found a difference between rams. And he found a difference between rams. And he found a difference between the preoptic area of gay rams and and the preoptic area of gay rams and and the preoptic area of gay rams and and straight rams, a difference in how they straight rams, a difference in how they straight rams, a difference in how they process testosterone in in exactly that process testosterone in in exactly that process testosterone in in exactly that part of the brain, the preoptic area part of the brain, the preoptic area part of the brain, the preoptic area where Simon saw a difference between gay where Simon saw a difference between gay where Simon saw a difference between gay and straight men. So there may be and straight men. So there may be and straight men. So there may be something about the hypothalamus, the something about the hypothalamus, the something about the hypothalamus, the preoptic area, uh that has something to preoptic area, uh that has something to preoptic area, uh that has something to do with orientation if if we're talking do with orientation if if we're talking do with orientation if if we're talking about an organism as complicated enough about an organism as complicated enough about an organism as complicated enough to have an orientation, including sheep. to have an orientation, including sheep. to have an orientation, including sheep. This is a particularly um nice moment uh This is a particularly um nice moment uh This is a particularly um nice moment uh not just for this episode but for the not just for this episode but for the not just for this episode but for the entire podcast arc uh because there are entire podcast arc uh because there are entire podcast arc uh because there are these moments that come up every once in these moments that come up every once in these moments that come up every once in a while where a larger principle shows a while where a larger principle shows a while where a larger principle shows up in a new way that I think um is up in a new way that I think um is up in a new way that I think um is really important for people to really important for people to really important for people to understand. Across neuroscience we see understand. Across neuroscience we see understand. Across neuroscience we see this pushpull right a flexor muscle like this pushpull right a flexor muscle like this pushpull right a flexor muscle like the bicep when it flexes the tricep the bicep when it flexes the tricep the bicep when it flexes the tricep relaxes. When the tricep flexes, the the relaxes. When the tricep flexes, the the relaxes. When the tricep flexes, the the bicep relaxes these antagonistic bicep relaxes these antagonistic bicep relaxes these antagonistic relationships. You see this in the relationships. You see this in the relationships. You see this in the hunger circuit. I mentioned one earlier. hunger circuit. I mentioned one earlier. hunger circuit. I mentioned one earlier. Like hunger and feeling full are they're Like hunger and feeling full are they're Like hunger and feeling full are they're like a pushpull. They're like a seessaw. like a pushpull. They're like a seessaw. like a pushpull. They're like a seessaw. And um uh and you see this over and over And um uh and you see this over and over And um uh and you see this over and over and over again. It's it's a it's a very and over again. It's it's a it's a very and over again. It's it's a it's a very consistent theme of of brain function. consistent theme of of brain function. consistent theme of of brain function. And you said something that I was not And you said something that I was not And you said something that I was not aware of, but makes perfect sense. I aware of, but makes perfect sense. I aware of, but makes perfect sense. I just wasn't aware that there were, you just wasn't aware that there were, you just wasn't aware that there were, you know, data um at the level you know, data um at the level you know, data um at the level you described, which is clearly there's an a described, which is clearly there's an a described, which is clearly there's an a pettitive aspect to sex behavior. pettitive aspect to sex behavior. pettitive aspect to sex behavior. Heterosexual males wanting to have sex Heterosexual males wanting to have sex Heterosexual males wanting to have sex with females, heterosexual females with females, heterosexual females with females, heterosexual females wanting to have sex with males, and and wanting to have sex with males, and and wanting to have sex with males, and and so on. Every derivation there, there's a so on. Every derivation there, there's a so on. Every derivation there, there's a desire. In species where there's strong desire. In species where there's strong desire. In species where there's strong pheromone and odor determination and and pheromone and odor determination and and pheromone and odor determination and and receptivity stuff gets played out that receptivity stuff gets played out that receptivity stuff gets played out that way, it looks one way. In humans, it may way, it looks one way. In humans, it may way, it looks one way. In humans, it may have some of that, but it plays out have some of that, but it plays out have some of that, but it plays out different way. Receptivity is different way. Receptivity is different way. Receptivity is communicated differently, although odor communicated differently, although odor communicated differently, although odor may be very important in ways we don't may be very important in ways we don't may be very important in ways we don't quite fully understand. But this idea quite fully understand. But this idea quite fully understand. But this idea that there's an aversive aspect to it, that there's an aversive aspect to it, that there's an aversive aspect to it, right? I think this is important and right? I think this is important and right? I think this is important and it's something that I have not heard it's something that I have not heard it's something that I have not heard discussed before. And I think that discussed before. And I think that discussed before. And I think that sociologically it has relevance because sociologically it has relevance because sociologically it has relevance because I think that um there's so many I think that um there's so many I think that um there's so many different aspects to the notion that our different aspects to the notion that our different aspects to the notion that our species, humans, um come in gay and species, humans, um come in gay and species, humans, um come in gay and straight and perhaps bisexual varieties. straight and perhaps bisexual varieties. straight and perhaps bisexual varieties. We know that's true We know that's true We know that's true >> clearly. >> clearly. >> clearly. >> But there is this um not uncommon >> But there is this um not uncommon >> But there is this um not uncommon theme whereby theme whereby theme whereby many people I I'm only you know say many many people I I'm only you know say many many people I I'm only you know say many people, right? not all um that the people, right? not all um that the people, right? not all um that the concept of mating with same sex is concept of mating with same sex is concept of mating with same sex is aversive to them and that has shaped a aversive to them and that has shaped a aversive to them and that has shaped a lot of the the landscape around this and lot of the the landscape around this and lot of the the landscape around this and I'm I'm not trying to get political I'm I'm not trying to get political I'm I'm not trying to get political here. It's just I think it's it's worth here. It's just I think it's it's worth here. It's just I think it's it's worth acknowledging that that may be a real acknowledging that that may be a real acknowledging that that may be a real phenomenon, too. I'm not trying to phenomenon, too. I'm not trying to phenomenon, too. I'm not trying to justify mistreatment of anybody, but I justify mistreatment of anybody, but I justify mistreatment of anybody, but I think that we're never going to get think that we're never going to get think that we're never going to get where we want to go as a as a species um where we want to go as a as a species um where we want to go as a as a species um society until we really at least society until we really at least society until we really at least understand the biology and how to work understand the biology and how to work understand the biology and how to work with it. And so the idea that same-sex with it. And so the idea that same-sex with it. And so the idea that same-sex sex, right, um would be aversive as an sex, right, um would be aversive as an sex, right, um would be aversive as an idea to people, some people like, oh, idea to people, some people like, oh, idea to people, some people like, oh, they haven't been educated. Okay, they haven't been educated. Okay, they haven't been educated. Okay, perhaps, you know, but there may be a perhaps, you know, but there may be a perhaps, you know, but there may be a biological basis for that. I think the biological basis for that. I think the biological basis for that. I think the data is still out and I but I think it's data is still out and I but I think it's data is still out and I but I think it's to me at least it's pretty clear that to me at least it's pretty clear that to me at least it's pretty clear that for men at least for there's an for men at least for there's an for men at least for there's an asymmetry here that that that experiment asymmetry here that that that experiment asymmetry here that that that experiment where I said you know who wants to have where I said you know who wants to have where I said you know who wants to have sex with George Clooney half the sex with George Clooney half the sex with George Clooney half the population says sure the other half population says sure the other half population says sure the other half population never. If we reverse the population never. If we reverse the population never. If we reverse the experiment, what percentage want to have experiment, what percentage want to have experiment, what percentage want to have sex with Margot Roby? And yeah, half the sex with Margot Roby? And yeah, half the sex with Margot Roby? And yeah, half the population, the men would see her as a population, the men would see her as a population, the men would see her as a very desirable sexual um partner, but very desirable sexual um partner, but very desirable sexual um partner, but you know, you know, you know, the women too would many women would the women too would many women would the women too would many women would also would at least consider the idea of also would at least consider the idea of also would at least consider the idea of having sex with her. And and we know having sex with her. And and we know having sex with her. And and we know there are plenty of women who are there are plenty of women who are there are plenty of women who are straight in one part of their lives and straight in one part of their lives and straight in one part of their lives and later they fall in love with a woman and later they fall in love with a woman and later they fall in love with a woman and now they feel like they're they're gay. now they feel like they're they're gay. now they feel like they're they're gay. Right? So females, women are more Right? So females, women are more Right? So females, women are more plastic in terms of their sexual plastic in terms of their sexual plastic in terms of their sexual longings and sexual orientation longings and sexual orientation longings and sexual orientation than men are. I'll be a little more than men are. I'll be a little more than men are. I'll be a little more specific. I I think it's among males specific. I I think it's among males specific. I I think it's among males where sometimes for many males, not all, where sometimes for many males, not all, where sometimes for many males, not all, uh there's an aversive idea that that uh there's an aversive idea that that uh there's an aversive idea that that the idea of having sex with the same-sex the idea of having sex with the same-sex the idea of having sex with the same-sex partner is aversive. Now, of course, partner is aversive. Now, of course, partner is aversive. Now, of course, context matters, right? There's same sex context matters, right? There's same sex context matters, right? There's same sex happening in prisons all the time when, happening in prisons all the time when, happening in prisons all the time when, you know, if the conditions are are you know, if the conditions are are you know, if the conditions are are enough and and I don't know where that enough and and I don't know where that enough and and I don't know where that aversive component came from. It could aversive component came from. It could aversive component came from. It could be that our society maybe it's all be that our society maybe it's all be that our society maybe it's all socially inculcated, you know, again socially inculcated, you know, again socially inculcated, you know, again before we're aware of it at all. Um, but before we're aware of it at all. Um, but before we're aware of it at all. Um, but I I think there's also at least the I I think there's also at least the I I think there's also at least the possibility that there's a biological possibility that there's a biological possibility that there's a biological component to it. And I think that's what component to it. And I think that's what component to it. And I think that's what uh Chuck was getting at in that here's uh Chuck was getting at in that here's uh Chuck was getting at in that here's this difference in the brain. He he this difference in the brain. He he this difference in the brain. He he doesn't know when the difference doesn't know when the difference doesn't know when the difference happened uh in their pre-optic areas. happened uh in their pre-optic areas. happened uh in their pre-optic areas. Um, but it seems to correlate with this Um, but it seems to correlate with this Um, but it seems to correlate with this idea that maybe these gay rams um, no, idea that maybe these gay rams um, no, idea that maybe these gay rams um, no, they they they're not interested in they they they're not interested in they they they're not interested in having sex with her. They're, you know, having sex with her. They're, you know, having sex with her. They're, you know, only only only >> it's aversive to them. >> it's aversive to them. >> it's aversive to them. >> It's aversive. Yeah. There's no other >> It's aversive. Yeah. There's no other >> It's aversive. Yeah. There's no other way to I can't I don't know any other way to I can't I don't know any other way to I can't I don't know any other way to explain uh how they choose never way to explain uh how they choose never way to explain uh how they choose never to never once mount a female. to never once mount a female. to never once mount a female. >> Yeah. I feel like that the >> Yeah. I feel like that the >> Yeah. I feel like that the acknowledgement of a of an aversive acknowledgement of a of an aversive acknowledgement of a of an aversive pathway for sexual partner choice is as pathway for sexual partner choice is as pathway for sexual partner choice is as important as the acknowledgement of important as the acknowledgement of important as the acknowledgement of biological uh coralates of biological uh coralates of biological uh coralates of homosexuality. homosexuality. homosexuality. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because if this sort of conversation is >> Because if this sort of conversation is >> Because if this sort of conversation is ever to advance past the sort of like ever to advance past the sort of like ever to advance past the sort of like okay what's okay to say now that we're okay what's okay to say now that we're okay what's okay to say now that we're willing to say now trust in science willing to say now trust in science willing to say now trust in science disappears. I really believe that. Now, disappears. I really believe that. Now, disappears. I really believe that. Now, of course, the problem is that people of course, the problem is that people of course, the problem is that people leverage leverage leverage fragments of what they hear in order to fragments of what they hear in order to fragments of what they hear in order to make arguments in in favor of whatever make arguments in in favor of whatever make arguments in in favor of whatever stance they have. And that that's the stance they have. And that that's the stance they have. And that that's the complication. That's why I like long complication. That's why I like long complication. That's why I like long form because no matter what gets pulled form because no matter what gets pulled form because no matter what gets pulled out, we can go back to the full out, we can go back to the full out, we can go back to the full conversation. conversation. conversation. >> And this makes you old-fashioned because >> And this makes you old-fashioned because >> And this makes you old-fashioned because this that's not the world. I mean, our this that's not the world. I mean, our this that's not the world. I mean, our world seems to be hurtling towards this. world seems to be hurtling towards this. world seems to be hurtling towards this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, >> Yeah. I mean, >> Yeah. I mean, >> world of snippets. >> world of snippets. >> world of snippets. >> People will notice that we have not used >> People will notice that we have not used >> People will notice that we have not used the word gender. We're talking about the word gender. We're talking about the word gender. We're talking about biological sex and sex, the act. And biological sex and sex, the act. And biological sex and sex, the act. And we're talking about male versus female we're talking about male versus female we're talking about male versus female partner choice. And we're talking about partner choice. And we're talking about partner choice. And we're talking about a desire for one or the other. And an a desire for one or the other. And an a desire for one or the other. And an aversion to one or the other. And I aversion to one or the other. And I aversion to one or the other. And I think the aversion piece is an important think the aversion piece is an important think the aversion piece is an important theme. So here's a hypothesis theme. So here's a hypothesis theme. So here's a hypothesis >> if I can come to a sbatical. I'm due for >> if I can come to a sbatical. I'm due for >> if I can come to a sbatical. I'm due for a sbatical at some point. It may be that a sbatical at some point. It may be that a sbatical at some point. It may be that in male humans that there's a pathway or in male humans that there's a pathway or in male humans that there's a pathway or a molecule that serves as an aversive to a molecule that serves as an aversive to a molecule that serves as an aversive to sex with other men circuit, peptides, sex with other men circuit, peptides, sex with other men circuit, peptides, neurons, etc. that suppresses um sexual neurons, etc. that suppresses um sexual neurons, etc. that suppresses um sexual desire and activates some level of desire and activates some level of desire and activates some level of disgust. Let me just say it bluntly. disgust. Let me just say it bluntly. disgust. Let me just say it bluntly. Might not be the same disgust that they Might not be the same disgust that they Might not be the same disgust that they would experience to something more would experience to something more would experience to something more aversive, but okay. And that in women aversive, but okay. And that in women aversive, but okay. And that in women there is no such pathway. There's either there is no such pathway. There's either there is no such pathway. There's either desire for women or desire for men. But desire for women or desire for men. But desire for women or desire for men. But as you said, you know, stati stat as you said, you know, stati stat as you said, you know, stati stat statistically women are more open on statistically women are more open on statistically women are more open on average to samesex average to samesex average to samesex a interactions. And it may be because a interactions. And it may be because a interactions. And it may be because there's no aversive signal or the there's no aversive signal or the there's no aversive signal or the aversive signal has a less robust aversive signal has a less robust aversive signal has a less robust circuit. to me that that would explain circuit. to me that that would explain circuit. to me that that would explain these differences that these sex these differences that these sex these differences that these sex differences and who people are willing differences and who people are willing differences and who people are willing to have sex with. Your hypothesis fits to have sex with. Your hypothesis fits to have sex with. Your hypothesis fits the data. the data. the data. >> I mean, it is true that in the like the >> I mean, it is true that in the like the >> I mean, it is true that in the like the early 90s, for instance, when the first early 90s, for instance, when the first early 90s, for instance, when the first gay characters were on television, like gay characters were on television, like gay characters were on television, like the real first real world, I'm really the real first real world, I'm really the real first real world, I'm really dating myself here, and subsequent dating myself here, and subsequent dating myself here, and subsequent characters started to dismantle some of characters started to dismantle some of characters started to dismantle some of the stereotypes that had been seen in the stereotypes that had been seen in the stereotypes that had been seen in like comedies in the 80s and things like like comedies in the 80s and things like like comedies in the 80s and things like that of the affeminite gay man, right? that of the affeminite gay man, right? that of the affeminite gay man, right? What you saw was indeed that What you saw was indeed that What you saw was indeed that heterosexual women, as far as we know, heterosexual women, as far as we know, heterosexual women, as far as we know, seem to be more like generally accepting seem to be more like generally accepting seem to be more like generally accepting of gay men before heterosexual men of gay men before heterosexual men of gay men before heterosexual men embrace that as as typical. embrace that as as typical. embrace that as as typical. >> That's my impression, too. I think I >> That's my impression, too. I think I >> That's my impression, too. I think I think it's pretty clear. think it's pretty clear. think it's pretty clear. >> Yeah. And then and then there's a >> Yeah. And then and then there's a >> Yeah. And then and then there's a societal shift and then it sort of societal shift and then it sort of societal shift and then it sort of becomes like, you know, uh like if you becomes like, you know, uh like if you becomes like, you know, uh like if you like I spend some time on X, formerly like I spend some time on X, formerly like I spend some time on X, formerly known as Twitter, right? And there's known as Twitter, right? And there's known as Twitter, right? And there's some um gay political uh accounts and um some um gay political uh accounts and um some um gay political uh accounts and um and you just kind of notice like it's and you just kind of notice like it's and you just kind of notice like it's just people are like comfortable with just people are like comfortable with just people are like comfortable with it. Men and women seem to be comfortable it. Men and women seem to be comfortable it. Men and women seem to be comfortable with that, right? I mean, of course, you with that, right? I mean, of course, you with that, right? I mean, of course, you don't see a lot of attacks now. That's don't see a lot of attacks now. That's don't see a lot of attacks now. That's very different than what you would have very different than what you would have very different than what you would have observe would have observed for instance observe would have observed for instance observe would have observed for instance in like the late 80s, early 90s, right? in like the late 80s, early 90s, right? in like the late 80s, early 90s, right? Anyway, I think these are important Anyway, I think these are important Anyway, I think these are important biological uh phenomenon. this notion of biological uh phenomenon. this notion of biological uh phenomenon. this notion of an aversive pathway. You could imagine an aversive pathway. You could imagine an aversive pathway. You could imagine where societal standards or community where societal standards or community where societal standards or community standards or household standards might, standards or household standards might, standards or household standards might, you know, amplify or reduce like the the you know, amplify or reduce like the the you know, amplify or reduce like the the the sort of expression of these things. the sort of expression of these things. the sort of expression of these things. >> I'm I'm sure they do. >> I'm I'm sure they do. >> I'm I'm sure they do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and I'm sure, you know, cultures, >> And and I'm sure, you know, cultures, >> And and I'm sure, you know, cultures, you know, can amplify or uh reduce that you know, can amplify or uh reduce that you know, can amplify or uh reduce that component. Um the question is, you know, component. Um the question is, you know, component. Um the question is, you know, to what extent? I mean, and and I don't to what extent? I mean, and and I don't to what extent? I mean, and and I don't I don't think we know. One thing that we I don't think we know. One thing that we I don't think we know. One thing that we haven't talked about and it is a small haven't talked about and it is a small haven't talked about and it is a small percentage of people but it's something percentage of people but it's something percentage of people but it's something that um people think about um is this that um people think about um is this that um people think about um is this notion of sort of um neither here nor notion of sort of um neither here nor notion of sort of um neither here nor there kind of mixed sex right is there a there kind of mixed sex right is there a there kind of mixed sex right is there a biological coralate of that um a biological coralate of that um a biological coralate of that um a graduate student my year when you were graduate student my year when you were graduate student my year when you were my professor um Nikki Oipka Nola Oipka my professor um Nikki Oipka Nola Oipka my professor um Nikki Oipka Nola Oipka >> um who was already famous for dog >> um who was already famous for dog >> um who was already famous for dog training dogs for the beast master show. training dogs for the beast master show. training dogs for the beast master show. She's amazing. Um, and had very well- She's amazing. Um, and had very well- She's amazing. Um, and had very well- behaved dogs uh that she would bring behaved dogs uh that she would bring behaved dogs uh that she would bring everywhere with her. Studied a species everywhere with her. Studied a species everywhere with her. Studied a species of mole in Tilden Park that could of mole in Tilden Park that could of mole in Tilden Park that could transiate its testes into ovaries and transiate its testes into ovaries and transiate its testes into ovaries and back again. And I thought, well, that's back again. And I thought, well, that's back again. And I thought, well, that's like alien weird levels of stuff. But like alien weird levels of stuff. But like alien weird levels of stuff. But she would occasionally go over to UCSF she would occasionally go over to UCSF she would occasionally go over to UCSF when babies were born that were sort of when babies were born that were sort of when babies were born that were sort of back then they called them, no one uses back then they called them, no one uses back then they called them, no one uses this language now, pseudo hermaphrodite. this language now, pseudo hermaphrodite. this language now, pseudo hermaphrodite. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> What is the deal with exposure to >> What is the deal with exposure to >> What is the deal with exposure to prenatal androgens and neither clearly prenatal androgens and neither clearly prenatal androgens and neither clearly here nor there a genitalia? here nor there a genitalia? here nor there a genitalia? >> Yeah. So in most of those cases we're >> Yeah. So in most of those cases we're >> Yeah. So in most of those cases we're talking about congenital adrenal talking about congenital adrenal talking about congenital adrenal hyperplasia also known as cah. And the hyperplasia also known as cah. And the hyperplasia also known as cah. And the congenital means it's present at birth. congenital means it's present at birth. congenital means it's present at birth. And the adrenal hyperplasia is referring And the adrenal hyperplasia is referring And the adrenal hyperplasia is referring to the fact that the adrenal glands are to the fact that the adrenal glands are to the fact that the adrenal glands are slightly larger. And the reason they're slightly larger. And the reason they're slightly larger. And the reason they're slightly larger in this case is because slightly larger in this case is because slightly larger in this case is because these are individuals where the the the these are individuals where the the the these are individuals where the the the fetus itself is not able to make some of fetus itself is not able to make some of fetus itself is not able to make some of the adrenal steroids that are important the adrenal steroids that are important the adrenal steroids that are important for staying healthy. And so the brain for staying healthy. And so the brain for staying healthy. And so the brain detecting, hey, where's the where are detecting, hey, where's the where are detecting, hey, where's the where are the adrenal steroids that we need here? the adrenal steroids that we need here? the adrenal steroids that we need here? Drives the pituitary to tell the the Drives the pituitary to tell the the Drives the pituitary to tell the the adrenal gland, hey, we need more adrenal gland, hey, we need more adrenal gland, hey, we need more steroids. The adrenal gland gets the steroids. The adrenal gland gets the steroids. The adrenal gland gets the message. It hypertrophies, but the message. It hypertrophies, but the message. It hypertrophies, but the machinery isn't there to make those machinery isn't there to make those machinery isn't there to make those steroids. And so instead, the adrenal steroids. And so instead, the adrenal steroids. And so instead, the adrenal gland makes testosterone and other gland makes testosterone and other gland makes testosterone and other androgens. androgens. androgens. And actually, this can happen in either And actually, this can happen in either And actually, this can happen in either XX or XY individuals. And in XY XX or XY individuals. And in XY XX or XY individuals. And in XY individuals, u people might not notice, individuals, u people might not notice, individuals, u people might not notice, but in XX individuals, what that means but in XX individuals, what that means but in XX individuals, what that means is that prenatally her genitalia being is that prenatally her genitalia being is that prenatally her genitalia being exposed to more testosterone than is exposed to more testosterone than is exposed to more testosterone than is typical. And so uh under the influence typical. And so uh under the influence typical. And so uh under the influence of this extra testosterone the clitoris of this extra testosterone the clitoris of this extra testosterone the clitoris may grow to be bigger than the typical may grow to be bigger than the typical may grow to be bigger than the typical clitoris. In some cases in extreme cases clitoris. In some cases in extreme cases clitoris. In some cases in extreme cases um the the phalus looks like a penis and um the the phalus looks like a penis and um the the phalus looks like a penis and the skin around that area that would the skin around that area that would the skin around that area that would normally form the labia again there normally form the labia again there normally form the labia again there might be enough testosterone that it might be enough testosterone that it might be enough testosterone that it starts to look like a scrotum except of starts to look like a scrotum except of starts to look like a scrotum except of course there are no there are no testes course there are no there are no testes course there are no there are no testes inside there because this is an XX inside there because this is an XX inside there because this is an XX individual. So these individuals are individual. So these individuals are individual. So these individuals are identified at birth typically especially identified at birth typically especially identified at birth typically especially in XX uh individuals and there's a in XX uh individuals and there's a in XX uh individuals and there's a there's an easy treatment which is oh there's an easy treatment which is oh there's an easy treatment which is oh they can't make you you know you do the they can't make you you know you do the they can't make you you know you do the test and you oh they can't make adrenal test and you oh they can't make adrenal test and you oh they can't make adrenal steroids so we'll give them some and so steroids so we'll give them some and so steroids so we'll give them some and so for the rest of their lives they take for the rest of their lives they take for the rest of their lives they take adrenal steroids orally and get the adrenal steroids orally and get the adrenal steroids orally and get the benefits of that and that shuts off the benefits of that and that shuts off the benefits of that and that shuts off the hyperactive adrenal gland so that it hyperactive adrenal gland so that it hyperactive adrenal gland so that it shuts off the the role of the output of shuts off the the role of the output of shuts off the the role of the output of testosterone. So this is an what's known testosterone. So this is an what's known testosterone. So this is an what's known as an interex phenotype. And yes, you're as an interex phenotype. And yes, you're as an interex phenotype. And yes, you're right. And in the older literature, they right. And in the older literature, they right. And in the older literature, they were sometimes known as pseudoh were sometimes known as pseudoh were sometimes known as pseudoh hermaphrodite. Huh? With the idea being hermaphrodite. Huh? With the idea being hermaphrodite. Huh? With the idea being well that a hermaphrodite is some is an well that a hermaphrodite is some is an well that a hermaphrodite is some is an individual that can that can function individual that can that can function individual that can that can function and reproduce either as a male or and reproduce either as a male or and reproduce either as a male or female. And so supposedly they were female. And so supposedly they were female. And so supposedly they were pseudo because they can't do that pseudo because they can't do that pseudo because they can't do that because they have only ovaries. Well, because they have only ovaries. Well, because they have only ovaries. Well, uh, you can imagine, uh, first of all, uh, you can imagine, uh, first of all, uh, you can imagine, uh, first of all, um, being called hermaphrodite, um, being called hermaphrodite, um, being called hermaphrodite, nobody liked that. And if you ask them, nobody liked that. And if you ask them, nobody liked that. And if you ask them, well, does it better if I put this well, does it better if I put this well, does it better if I put this pseudo at the beginning? Does that that pseudo at the beginning? Does that that pseudo at the beginning? Does that that make you feel like you're being less make you feel like you're being less make you feel like you're being less stigmatized? No. But a much more stigmatized? No. But a much more stigmatized? No. But a much more accurate uh description is to say that accurate uh description is to say that accurate uh description is to say that it's intersects. They have a a fallus it's intersects. They have a a fallus it's intersects. They have a a fallus that's somewhere between a clitoris and that's somewhere between a clitoris and that's somewhere between a clitoris and a penis. And the skin around there is a penis. And the skin around there is a penis. And the skin around there is sort of like a scrotum and sort of like sort of like a scrotum and sort of like sort of like a scrotum and sort of like a sort of like labia. So uh in the old a sort of like labia. So uh in the old a sort of like labia. So uh in the old days once this got recognized it was days once this got recognized it was days once this got recognized it was standard procedure to tell the parents standard procedure to tell the parents standard procedure to tell the parents oh uh this is an emergency. We need to oh uh this is an emergency. We need to oh uh this is an emergency. We need to do cosmetic surgery. We need to do do cosmetic surgery. We need to do do cosmetic surgery. We need to do surgery to make this little girl look surgery to make this little girl look surgery to make this little girl look like all the other little girls. You like all the other little girls. You like all the other little girls. You know sometimes the surgery was you know know sometimes the surgery was you know know sometimes the surgery was you know there could sometimes be successful or there could sometimes be successful or there could sometimes be successful or not. And indeed, they knew how to make not. And indeed, they knew how to make not. And indeed, they knew how to make her look like her look like her look like other girls. Um, but many of those other girls. Um, but many of those other girls. Um, but many of those interex folks when they grew up were interex folks when they grew up were interex folks when they grew up were pretty angry that someone had done this pretty angry that someone had done this pretty angry that someone had done this surgery on them that wasn't needed surgery on them that wasn't needed surgery on them that wasn't needed medically, right? They were already medically, right? They were already medically, right? They were already taking care of the problem with the taking care of the problem with the taking care of the problem with the exogenous adrenal steroids. And so, who exogenous adrenal steroids. And so, who exogenous adrenal steroids. And so, who asked you to to deal with my, you know, asked you to to deal with my, you know, asked you to to deal with my, you know, to do surgery on my clitoris? In some to do surgery on my clitoris? In some to do surgery on my clitoris? In some cases, uh, the tip of the clitoris was cases, uh, the tip of the clitoris was cases, uh, the tip of the clitoris was missing and so these women grew up and missing and so these women grew up and missing and so these women grew up and were an orgasmic because they couldn't were an orgasmic because they couldn't were an orgasmic because they couldn't get the stimulation that they normally get the stimulation that they normally get the stimulation that they normally would have had. These days, um, there's would have had. These days, um, there's would have had. These days, um, there's much more thanks to the activists like much more thanks to the activists like much more thanks to the activists like Cheryl Chase and others who started Cheryl Chase and others who started Cheryl Chase and others who started getting the pediatricians attention. getting the pediatricians attention. getting the pediatricians attention. Hey, you you need to think about that. Hey, you you need to think about that. Hey, you you need to think about that. You're you're doing elective surgery on You're you're doing elective surgery on You're you're doing elective surgery on an infant who cannot possibly have an infant who cannot possibly have an infant who cannot possibly have informed consent. And so these days informed consent. And so these days informed consent. And so these days they're more of a wait and see attitude they're more of a wait and see attitude they're more of a wait and see attitude which which I think is absolutely that. which which I think is absolutely that. which which I think is absolutely that. So wait till they're grown up and ask So wait till they're grown up and ask So wait till they're grown up and ask them then if they want to have surgery them then if they want to have surgery them then if they want to have surgery and my guess is most will will say no. I and my guess is most will will say no. I and my guess is most will will say no. I think that's been the pattern so far. So think that's been the pattern so far. So think that's been the pattern so far. So these are females who were exposed to these are females who were exposed to these are females who were exposed to more testosterone than other females. So more testosterone than other females. So more testosterone than other females. So does that mean that they're going to be does that mean that they're going to be does that mean that they're going to be attracted to women when they grow up? attracted to women when they grow up? attracted to women when they grow up? And and the answer is well interestingly And and the answer is well interestingly And and the answer is well interestingly uh if you look at groups of women with uh if you look at groups of women with uh if you look at groups of women with CA they are more likely to be same-sex CA they are more likely to be same-sex CA they are more likely to be same-sex attracted to be lesbians than the than attracted to be lesbians than the than attracted to be lesbians than the than the population at large but most of them the population at large but most of them the population at large but most of them are straight. But what's interesting are straight. But what's interesting are straight. But what's interesting about that is the older they get as you about that is the older they get as you about that is the older they get as you keep surveying them the higher the keep surveying them the higher the keep surveying them the higher the percentage of them that report having a percentage of them that report having a percentage of them that report having a lesbian orientation. lesbian orientation. lesbian orientation. M M M >> so it's possible first of all that >> so it's possible first of all that >> so it's possible first of all that indicates that yeah maybe prenatal indicates that yeah maybe prenatal indicates that yeah maybe prenatal testosterone increases the the odds of testosterone increases the the odds of testosterone increases the the odds of them uh being lesbians when they grow them uh being lesbians when they grow them uh being lesbians when they grow up. Uh, and and you also wonder, well, up. Uh, and and you also wonder, well, up. Uh, and and you also wonder, well, how many of them always had that how many of them always had that how many of them always had that same-sex attraction, but, you know, were same-sex attraction, but, you know, were same-sex attraction, but, you know, were following the pathway society laid out following the pathway society laid out following the pathway society laid out for them, and then as they get older, for them, and then as they get older, for them, and then as they get older, they said, well, no, screw this. I, you they said, well, no, screw this. I, you they said, well, no, screw this. I, you know, I I know who I'm attracted to. I know, I I know who I'm attracted to. I know, I I know who I'm attracted to. I don't have to fit the heterosexual mold. don't have to fit the heterosexual mold. don't have to fit the heterosexual mold. And so, it it's, you know, that's And so, it it's, you know, that's And so, it it's, you know, that's entirely consistent with the idea that entirely consistent with the idea that entirely consistent with the idea that prenatal testosterone makes you more prenatal testosterone makes you more prenatal testosterone makes you more likely to be attracted to women when you likely to be attracted to women when you likely to be attracted to women when you grow up. There's another syndrome that I grow up. There's another syndrome that I grow up. There's another syndrome that I know you've talked about um which is know you've talked about um which is know you've talked about um which is androgen insensitivity syndrome androgen insensitivity syndrome androgen insensitivity syndrome sometimes abbreviated AIS and it turns sometimes abbreviated AIS and it turns sometimes abbreviated AIS and it turns out the gene for the androen receptor out the gene for the androen receptor out the gene for the androen receptor that responds to testosterone and other that responds to testosterone and other that responds to testosterone and other androgens is on the X chromosome and it androgens is on the X chromosome and it androgens is on the X chromosome and it may sometimes be that a woman will have may sometimes be that a woman will have may sometimes be that a woman will have an X chromosome that has a copy of the an X chromosome that has a copy of the an X chromosome that has a copy of the androceptor gene that doesn't work androceptor gene that doesn't work androceptor gene that doesn't work and if she passes that X chromosome onto and if she passes that X chromosome onto and if she passes that X chromosome onto a daughter then she's sort of duplicated a daughter then she's sort of duplicated a daughter then she's sort of duplicated herself. What's interesting is when that herself. What's interesting is when that herself. What's interesting is when that X chromosome is given to a son, in other X chromosome is given to a son, in other X chromosome is given to a son, in other words, that egg with an X chromosome words, that egg with an X chromosome words, that egg with an X chromosome that has a dysfunctional copy of the that has a dysfunctional copy of the that has a dysfunctional copy of the Andraceptor gene, if it gets fertilized Andraceptor gene, if it gets fertilized Andraceptor gene, if it gets fertilized by a Y-bearing sperm, now we have an XY by a Y-bearing sperm, now we have an XY by a Y-bearing sperm, now we have an XY individual. individual. individual. And as you've explained clearly in your And as you've explained clearly in your And as you've explained clearly in your in your basics podcast, uh we know in your basics podcast, uh we know in your basics podcast, uh we know what'll happen in development. The Y what'll happen in development. The Y what'll happen in development. The Y chromosome will mean that the chromosome will mean that the chromosome will mean that the indifferent gonad will develop his indifferent gonad will develop his indifferent gonad will develop his testes. The testes will secrete two testes. The testes will secrete two testes. The testes will secrete two hormones that are going to guide sexual hormones that are going to guide sexual hormones that are going to guide sexual differentiation in the periphery. One of differentiation in the periphery. One of differentiation in the periphery. One of them being antimmalarian hormone which them being antimmalarian hormone which them being antimmalarian hormone which is going to suppress the development of is going to suppress the development of is going to suppress the development of the malarian ducts and therefore no the malarian ducts and therefore no the malarian ducts and therefore no ovduct no uterus will form and the ovduct no uterus will form and the ovduct no uterus will form and the testus will also release testosterone testus will also release testosterone testus will also release testosterone which normally would masculinize the which normally would masculinize the which normally would masculinize the body. But in this case, because there's body. But in this case, because there's body. But in this case, because there's no functional androceptor to respond to no functional androceptor to respond to no functional androceptor to respond to it, the testosterone goes round and it, the testosterone goes round and it, the testosterone goes round and round, but the body doesn't respond. And round, but the body doesn't respond. And round, but the body doesn't respond. And so the wolfie and ducks don't develop. so the wolfie and ducks don't develop. so the wolfie and ducks don't develop. The periphery looks like a typical The periphery looks like a typical The periphery looks like a typical female. And these individuals when female. And these individuals when female. And these individuals when they're born often are not identified they're born often are not identified they're born often are not identified because the baby's born. The doctor does because the baby's born. The doctor does because the baby's born. The doctor does that very careful analysis by looking that very careful analysis by looking that very careful analysis by looking between the legs and says, between the legs and says, between the legs and says, "Congratulations, you have a girl." and "Congratulations, you have a girl." and "Congratulations, you have a girl." and they grow up to to be girls un they grow up to to be girls un they grow up to to be girls un undetected and they come to a doctor's undetected and they come to a doctor's undetected and they come to a doctor's attention when puberty happens and all attention when puberty happens and all attention when puberty happens and all their classmates are having their period their classmates are having their period their classmates are having their period but she's not and so she'll eventually but she's not and so she'll eventually but she's not and so she'll eventually go to an OBGYn go to an OBGYn go to an OBGYn who will first do an exam a vaginal exam who will first do an exam a vaginal exam who will first do an exam a vaginal exam and he'll notice that the vagina is and he'll notice that the vagina is and he'll notice that the vagina is relatively short because the inner part relatively short because the inner part relatively short because the inner part of the vagina is normally derived from of the vagina is normally derived from of the vagina is normally derived from the malarian ducts. Well, in this woman, the malarian ducts. Well, in this woman, the malarian ducts. Well, in this woman, in this teenage girl, um the malarian in this teenage girl, um the malarian in this teenage girl, um the malarian ducts never develop because of ducts never develop because of ducts never develop because of antimmalarian hormone. So, there'll be antimmalarian hormone. So, there'll be antimmalarian hormone. So, there'll be no cervix that can be seen in the exam. no cervix that can be seen in the exam. no cervix that can be seen in the exam. And if he takes blood plasma levels, And if he takes blood plasma levels, And if he takes blood plasma levels, he'll see that this very feminine he'll see that this very feminine he'll see that this very feminine looking girl, teenage girl, has very looking girl, teenage girl, has very looking girl, teenage girl, has very high levels of testosterone high levels of testosterone high levels of testosterone >> and presumably testes. And if he does a >> and presumably testes. And if he does a >> and presumably testes. And if he does a carotype, he'll see that she has an XY carotype, he'll see that she has an XY carotype, he'll see that she has an XY carotype. And yes, there are testes in carotype. And yes, there are testes in carotype. And yes, there are testes in there typically in the abdomen. And there typically in the abdomen. And there typically in the abdomen. And they're releasing lots of testosterone they're releasing lots of testosterone they're releasing lots of testosterone because there's no negative feedback to because there's no negative feedback to because there's no negative feedback to tell the brain, you know, hey, you can tell the brain, you know, hey, you can tell the brain, you know, hey, you can stop sending signals to the testes. Now, stop sending signals to the testes. Now, stop sending signals to the testes. Now, in these cases, you can ask, well, in these cases, you can ask, well, in these cases, you can ask, well, what's the sexual orientation of these what's the sexual orientation of these what's the sexual orientation of these women? And the vast majority of them women? And the vast majority of them women? And the vast majority of them grow up to be straight. They are grow up to be straight. They are grow up to be straight. They are attracted to men and they might be very attracted to men and they might be very attracted to men and they might be very they're often very interested in having they're often very interested in having they're often very interested in having a family and of course they can't carry a family and of course they can't carry a family and of course they can't carry children themselves but they can you children themselves but they can you children themselves but they can you know adopt and things like that and so know adopt and things like that and so know adopt and things like that and so they're very much feminine very straight they're very much feminine very straight they're very much feminine very straight women women women >> but they're exy >> but they're exy >> but they're exy >> but they're ex so the question is and >> but they're ex so the question is and >> but they're ex so the question is and unfortunately in terms of understanding unfortunately in terms of understanding unfortunately in terms of understanding whether prenatal testosterone alters our whether prenatal testosterone alters our whether prenatal testosterone alters our sexual orientation these individuals sexual orientation these individuals sexual orientation these individuals aren't aren't useful to us because we I aren't aren't useful to us because we I aren't aren't useful to us because we I don't know if they're straight women don't know if they're straight women don't know if they're straight women because their brains could never respond because their brains could never respond because their brains could never respond to the prenatal testosterone or are they to the prenatal testosterone or are they to the prenatal testosterone or are they straight women because they were raised straight women because they were raised straight women because they were raised as girls and socialized to to be as girls and socialized to to be as girls and socialized to to be attracted to men. It's a fascinating attracted to men. It's a fascinating attracted to men. It's a fascinating syndrome and there's at least one woman syndrome and there's at least one woman syndrome and there's at least one woman with AIS who's self-identified who's a with AIS who's self-identified who's a with AIS who's self-identified who's a successful model. Uh and there's another successful model. Uh and there's another successful model. Uh and there's another woman who wrote a memoir that's quite uh woman who wrote a memoir that's quite uh woman who wrote a memoir that's quite uh it's quite good. And what's interesting it's quite good. And what's interesting it's quite good. And what's interesting about when there's no testosterone about when there's no testosterone about when there's no testosterone response, uh, they have very feminine response, uh, they have very feminine response, uh, they have very feminine faces, very feminine bodies. U and, and faces, very feminine bodies. U and, and faces, very feminine bodies. U and, and so they're, you know, they're frankly so they're, you know, they're frankly so they're, you know, they're frankly quite attractive, uh, as women. quite attractive, uh, as women. quite attractive, uh, as women. >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. acknowledge our sponsor, Function. acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab Function provides over 160 advanced lab Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of tests to give you a clear snapshot of tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives your bodily health. This snapshot gives your bodily health. 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I'm realizing I'm drawing a model over here realizing I'm drawing a model over here realizing I'm drawing a model over here whereby we've got again accelerators and whereby we've got again accelerators and whereby we've got again accelerators and breaks and and I think we've got breaks and and I think we've got breaks and and I think we've got different axes. um not you know I'm not different axes. um not you know I'm not different axes. um not you know I'm not trying to um split hairs here but I trying to um split hairs here but I trying to um split hairs here but I think for people who want to understand think for people who want to understand think for people who want to understand how hormones sex and behavior sexual how hormones sex and behavior sexual how hormones sex and behavior sexual orientation fit together it's very orientation fit together it's very orientation fit together it's very useful to think about okay you've got useful to think about okay you've got useful to think about okay you've got chromosomes that drive you know our chromosomes that drive you know our chromosomes that drive you know our typical notions of male versus female typical notions of male versus female typical notions of male versus female and you're providing some important and you're providing some important and you're providing some important caveats where the the body appears one caveats where the the body appears one caveats where the the body appears one way but it's an XY you know and and way but it's an XY you know and and way but it's an XY you know and and there's almost every derivation of this there's almost every derivation of this there's almost every derivation of this has been observed although not at a very has been observed although not at a very has been observed although not at a very high frequency Um, and then you've got high frequency Um, and then you've got high frequency Um, and then you've got choice of same versus other, uh, in choice of same versus other, uh, in choice of same versus other, uh, in terms of orientation, a key role of terms of orientation, a key role of terms of orientation, a key role of prenatal testosterone there. Um, maybe prenatal testosterone there. Um, maybe prenatal testosterone there. Um, maybe some some some cultural or other types of plasticity cultural or other types of plasticity cultural or other types of plasticity that might be biased more toward the that might be biased more toward the that might be biased more toward the female side. It seems that way based on female side. It seems that way based on female side. It seems that way based on what you're saying, if I'm, you know, what you're saying, if I'm, you know, what you're saying, if I'm, you know, I'm willing to say it. If you're not, it I'm willing to say it. If you're not, it I'm willing to say it. If you're not, it does seem that way. does seem that way. does seem that way. um there's an aversive signal that kind um there's an aversive signal that kind um there's an aversive signal that kind of that certainly in male sheep and um of that certainly in male sheep and um of that certainly in male sheep and um other species and that you know matches other species and that you know matches other species and that you know matches my observations uh as a 50-year-old male my observations uh as a 50-year-old male my observations uh as a 50-year-old male who grew up in Northern California and who grew up in Northern California and who grew up in Northern California and you know I mean again you know I mean again you know I mean again >> in this era >> in this era >> in this era >> and the joke being that I'm I can only >> and the joke being that I'm I can only >> and the joke being that I'm I can only speak for my own reference point on this speak for my own reference point on this speak for my own reference point on this um um um and then we have a bunch of different and then we have a bunch of different and then we have a bunch of different things about um partner preference And things about um partner preference And things about um partner preference And and that at some point it almost seems and that at some point it almost seems and that at some point it almost seems like it departs from well it certainly like it departs from well it certainly like it departs from well it certainly departs from our sort of linear like departs from our sort of linear like departs from our sort of linear like okay uh girls like boys, boys like okay uh girls like boys, boys like okay uh girls like boys, boys like girls, testosterone makes boys, estrogen girls, testosterone makes boys, estrogen girls, testosterone makes boys, estrogen makes we're we're we're nowhere near makes we're we're we're nowhere near makes we're we're we're nowhere near there. We're we're we've left that there. We're we're we've left that there. We're we're we've left that station a long time ago. station a long time ago. station a long time ago. >> Exactly. Um and >> Exactly. Um and >> Exactly. Um and at the same time we we arrive at a place at the same time we we arrive at a place at the same time we we arrive at a place where I think we need better languaging where I think we need better languaging where I think we need better languaging to separate these axes because it is to separate these axes because it is to separate these axes because it is very confusing for people. Um, very confusing for people. Um, very confusing for people. Um, and so that would be very useful if if and so that would be very useful if if and so that would be very useful if if the fields of neuroscience and the fields of neuroscience and the fields of neuroscience and psychology would start to embrace the psychology would start to embrace the psychology would start to embrace the real world uh realities of of because I real world uh realities of of because I real world uh realities of of because I actually think the lack of of actually think the lack of of actually think the lack of of specificity of talking about orientation specificity of talking about orientation specificity of talking about orientation versus biological sex and and these and versus biological sex and and these and versus biological sex and and these and these other aspects have have led I these other aspects have have led I these other aspects have have led I think that's the source of a lot of think that's the source of a lot of think that's the source of a lot of conflict actually. Anyway, that's a conflict actually. Anyway, that's a conflict actually. Anyway, that's a that's an editorial for another time. that's an editorial for another time. that's an editorial for another time. Um, Um, Um, in terms of biological impact on sexual in terms of biological impact on sexual in terms of biological impact on sexual orientation, one of the more striking orientation, one of the more striking orientation, one of the more striking findings that you've been talking about findings that you've been talking about findings that you've been talking about for a number of years that just kind of for a number of years that just kind of for a number of years that just kind of shocks at first, but then you get a lot shocks at first, but then you get a lot shocks at first, but then you get a lot of nods from people is this idea that of nods from people is this idea that of nods from people is this idea that the larger the number of older brothers the larger the number of older brothers the larger the number of older brothers that a male has, the higher the that a male has, the higher the that a male has, the higher the probability that he is gay. probability that he is gay. probability that he is gay. >> It's been seen over and over. I mean, >> It's been seen over and over. I mean, >> It's been seen over and over. I mean, it's it's really one of the uh rock it's it's really one of the uh rock it's it's really one of the uh rock solid findings in human sexuality that solid findings in human sexuality that solid findings in human sexuality that that was first noticed by Ray Blanchard that was first noticed by Ray Blanchard that was first noticed by Ray Blanchard at Toronto and has been seen in many at Toronto and has been seen in many at Toronto and has been seen in many populations all over the world. So, the populations all over the world. So, the populations all over the world. So, the way to emphasize the difference is if a way to emphasize the difference is if a way to emphasize the difference is if a baby boy is born today, um if if he has baby boy is born today, um if if he has baby boy is born today, um if if he has no older brothers, his odds of being gay no older brothers, his odds of being gay no older brothers, his odds of being gay when he grows up is about 2%. Right? when he grows up is about 2%. Right? when he grows up is about 2%. Right? Pretty low. But if he had one older Pretty low. But if he had one older Pretty low. But if he had one older brother, his odds go up by a third. brother, his odds go up by a third. brother, his odds go up by a third. Okay, 2.6. And if he has two older Okay, 2.6. And if he has two older Okay, 2.6. And if he has two older brothers, they go up a third again. All brothers, they go up a third again. All brothers, they go up a third again. All right, now we're at 3.5. It turns out right, now we're at 3.5. It turns out right, now we're at 3.5. It turns out you got to have like a dozen older you got to have like a dozen older you got to have like a dozen older brothers just to have a 50/50 chance brothers just to have a 50/50 chance brothers just to have a 50/50 chance from the same mother, from the same mother, from the same mother, >> right? So we know that it's not, you >> right? So we know that it's not, you >> right? So we know that it's not, you know, in, you know, what they call now know, in, you know, what they call now know, in, you know, what they call now blended family or so this is blended family or so this is blended family or so this is >> we'll get to those in a moment, but but >> we'll get to those in a moment, but but >> we'll get to those in a moment, but but but this is what you see. So you get a but this is what you see. So you get a but this is what you see. So you get a big population of men. Here's here's a big population of men. Here's here's a big population of men. Here's here's a big population that have one older big population that have one older big population that have one older brother. How many are gay? And it's a brother. How many are gay? And it's a brother. How many are gay? And it's a small number. And and the number that small number. And and the number that small number. And and the number that have two, still a small number, but have two, still a small number, but have two, still a small number, but more. And you know, how do you explain more. And you know, how do you explain more. And you know, how do you explain that? We saw it when when we did those that? We saw it when when we did those that? We saw it when when we did those surveys. We I I don't know if you surveys. We I I don't know if you surveys. We I I don't know if you remember, we also asked people how many remember, we also asked people how many remember, we also asked people how many older brothers and sisters they had and older brothers and sisters they had and older brothers and sisters they had and how many younger brothers and sisters how many younger brothers and sisters how many younger brothers and sisters they had. So it it turns out in the they had. So it it turns out in the they had. So it it turns out in the general population, there about 105 boys general population, there about 105 boys general population, there about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, right? That's born for every 100 girls, right? That's born for every 100 girls, right? That's also very consistent. also very consistent. also very consistent. >> 105 boys born for every hundred girls. >> 105 boys born for every hundred girls. >> 105 boys born for every hundred girls. >> That's right. So there's or put it >> That's right. So there's or put it >> That's right. So there's or put it another way, uh, if you want, I can I another way, uh, if you want, I can I another way, uh, if you want, I can I can guess the sex of any baby that's can guess the sex of any baby that's can guess the sex of any baby that's going to be born and I can be right more going to be born and I can be right more going to be born and I can be right more than 50% of the time because I'm always than 50% of the time because I'm always than 50% of the time because I'm always going to guess boy, right? Because 51% going to guess boy, right? Because 51% going to guess boy, right? Because 51% of the time it'll be a boy. For straight of the time it'll be a boy. For straight of the time it'll be a boy. For straight men, you total up all the older brothers men, you total up all the older brothers men, you total up all the older brothers they have and all the older sisters. And they have and all the older sisters. And they have and all the older sisters. And there's a ratio of about 105 older there's a ratio of about 105 older there's a ratio of about 105 older brothers to 100 older sisters. For the brothers to 100 older sisters. For the brothers to 100 older sisters. For the gay men, it it turned out there were 140 gay men, it it turned out there were 140 gay men, it it turned out there were 140 older brothers for every 100 sisters. older brothers for every 100 sisters. older brothers for every 100 sisters. >> Help frame that statistic for people. >> Help frame that statistic for people. >> Help frame that statistic for people. So, so you gave us the one older So, so you gave us the one older So, so you gave us the one older brother, what the probability was, brother, what the probability was, brother, what the probability was, right? right? right? >> Uh it's a third increase. You go from 2% >> Uh it's a third increase. You go from 2% >> Uh it's a third increase. You go from 2% to 2.6. Is it a linear increase as you to 2.6. Is it a linear increase as you to 2.6. Is it a linear increase as you increase the number of older brothers? increase the number of older brothers? increase the number of older brothers? Do you just start um increasing the Do you just start um increasing the Do you just start um increasing the probability at every with every probability at every with every probability at every with every >> older brother or are there is it sort of >> older brother or are there is it sort of >> older brother or are there is it sort of a step function? a step function? a step function? >> It is in fact a linear progression. So >> It is in fact a linear progression. So >> It is in fact a linear progression. So at at that rate so Ray's worked that at at that rate so Ray's worked that at at that rate so Ray's worked that out. Of course it's hard to find men out. Of course it's hard to find men out. Of course it's hard to find men that had more than four or five older that had more than four or five older that had more than four or five older brothers especially these days. But uh brothers especially these days. But uh brothers especially these days. But uh but it turns out in the Kinsey surveys but it turns out in the Kinsey surveys but it turns out in the Kinsey surveys Ry went to the Kinsey surveys way back Ry went to the Kinsey surveys way back Ry went to the Kinsey surveys way back then. you know, those c those interviews then. you know, those c those interviews then. you know, those c those interviews were incredibly thorough. And so they were incredibly thorough. And so they were incredibly thorough. And so they have a record of how many siblings of have a record of how many siblings of have a record of how many siblings of each sex every one of those men had. And each sex every one of those men had. And each sex every one of those men had. And and you can see it there, too. And it's and you can see it there, too. And it's and you can see it there, too. And it's another one of these cases where I tell another one of these cases where I tell another one of these cases where I tell you this and you tell me, well, I know you this and you tell me, well, I know you this and you tell me, well, I know somebody who has two older brothers and somebody who has two older brothers and somebody who has two older brothers and they're gay. Is that why? they're gay. Is that why? they're gay. Is that why? >> Or I know somebody with three older >> Or I know somebody with three older >> Or I know somebody with three older brothers and they're not gay. This brothers and they're not gay. This brothers and they're not gay. This absolutely. So you tell me, oh, I know absolutely. So you tell me, oh, I know absolutely. So you tell me, oh, I know somebody who has two older brothers and somebody who has two older brothers and somebody who has two older brothers and he's gay. Is that why he's gay? And I I he's gay. Is that why he's gay? And I I he's gay. Is that why he's gay? And I I really can't tell you. There's no way to really can't tell you. There's no way to really can't tell you. There's no way to know because in fact most men with two know because in fact most men with two know because in fact most men with two older brothers are straight. Right? older brothers are straight. Right? older brothers are straight. Right? Again, it's one of these instances where Again, it's one of these instances where Again, it's one of these instances where it gives you no predictive power about it gives you no predictive power about it gives you no predictive power about one individual, why they are gay. Ray one individual, why they are gay. Ray one individual, why they are gay. Ray Blanchard has done the statistics and Blanchard has done the statistics and Blanchard has done the statistics and their estimate is of all the population their estimate is of all the population their estimate is of all the population of gay men, about one in seven are gay of gay men, about one in seven are gay of gay men, about one in seven are gay because their mother carried brothers because their mother carried brothers because their mother carried brothers before them. And what I mean is those before them. And what I mean is those before them. And what I mean is those same men with the same genotype, same same men with the same genotype, same same men with the same genotype, same genes, if their mom hadn't had older genes, if their mom hadn't had older genes, if their mom hadn't had older brothers before them, they'd be straight brothers before them, they'd be straight brothers before them, they'd be straight today. today. today. >> Statistically speaking, >> Statistically speaking, >> Statistically speaking, >> statistically. But I, you know, you you >> statistically. But I, you know, you you >> statistically. But I, you know, you you show me a picture of the of the gay show me a picture of the of the gay show me a picture of the of the gay men's chorus, and I can't point out men's chorus, and I can't point out men's chorus, and I can't point out which which man is gay because of that which which man is gay because of that which which man is gay because of that because there are other factors that can because there are other factors that can because there are other factors that can influence whether someone grows up to be influence whether someone grows up to be influence whether someone grows up to be gay. So again, it's one of these things gay. So again, it's one of these things gay. So again, it's one of these things where the statistical comparison is of where the statistical comparison is of where the statistical comparison is of great theoretical importance even though great theoretical importance even though great theoretical importance even though it offers no predictive value for a it offers no predictive value for a it offers no predictive value for a given individual. So we know that males given individual. So we know that males given individual. So we know that males engage in much more rough and tumble engage in much more rough and tumble engage in much more rough and tumble play when they're younger, just like play when they're younger, just like play when they're younger, just like rats, just like monkeys. This is a fact. rats, just like monkeys. This is a fact. rats, just like monkeys. This is a fact. It's related to testosterone exposure. It's related to testosterone exposure. It's related to testosterone exposure. If a boy has older brothers, there's a If a boy has older brothers, there's a If a boy has older brothers, there's a decent chance he's engaging in more of decent chance he's engaging in more of decent chance he's engaging in more of that than if he has a sister. And given that than if he has a sister. And given that than if he has a sister. And given what you said earlier that in humans the what you said earlier that in humans the what you said earlier that in humans the brain continues to develop at a at a brain continues to develop at a at a brain continues to develop at a at a massively accelerated rate um even after massively accelerated rate um even after massively accelerated rate um even after birth up to age six, testosterone has an birth up to age six, testosterone has an birth up to age six, testosterone has an influence. Behavior impacts influence. Behavior impacts influence. Behavior impacts testosterone. Okay, they're not in testosterone. Okay, they're not in testosterone. Okay, they're not in puberty yet, but you could imagine this puberty yet, but you could imagine this puberty yet, but you could imagine this has an impact. So the qu the experiment has an impact. So the qu the experiment has an impact. So the qu the experiment becomes for boys that had two or more becomes for boys that had two or more becomes for boys that had two or more older brothers but were not raised with older brothers but were not raised with older brothers but were not raised with those older brothers does the effect those older brothers does the effect those older brothers does the effect hold of them having a statistically hold of them having a statistically hold of them having a statistically greater probability of being gay? greater probability of being gay? greater probability of being gay? >> It's a beautiful hypothesis and you >> It's a beautiful hypothesis and you >> It's a beautiful hypothesis and you first hear about this and that's the first hear about this and that's the first hear about this and that's the first thing you think well maybe the first thing you think well maybe the first thing you think well maybe the younger brother got bullied or or beat younger brother got bullied or or beat younger brother got bullied or or beat up his older brothers and maybe the up his older brothers and maybe the up his older brothers and maybe the older brother somehow inhibited the older brother somehow inhibited the older brother somehow inhibited the younger brother from developing in a younger brother from developing in a younger brother from developing in a full masculine fashion. But uh it turns full masculine fashion. But uh it turns full masculine fashion. But uh it turns out Tony Bogart uh started looking at out Tony Bogart uh started looking at out Tony Bogart uh started looking at these data and he started asking well these data and he started asking well these data and he started asking well what about step brothers? Do older what about step brothers? Do older what about step brothers? Do older stepbros make any difference in the odds stepbros make any difference in the odds stepbros make any difference in the odds of sexual orientation? And the answer of sexual orientation? And the answer of sexual orientation? And the answer was a clear no. was a clear no. was a clear no. >> On the other hand, older brothers who >> On the other hand, older brothers who >> On the other hand, older brothers who came from the same mother but were came from the same mother but were came from the same mother but were raised apart had just as much of an raised apart had just as much of an raised apart had just as much of an effect as those that were raised with effect as those that were raised with effect as those that were raised with it. So it does not seem to be socially it. So it does not seem to be socially it. So it does not seem to be socially mediated. In fact, Ray Blanchard and mediated. In fact, Ray Blanchard and mediated. In fact, Ray Blanchard and Tony Bogart have come up with a very Tony Bogart have come up with a very Tony Bogart have come up with a very plausible hypothesis called the maternal plausible hypothesis called the maternal plausible hypothesis called the maternal immunization hypothesis. immunization hypothesis. immunization hypothesis. And it it runs something like this that And it it runs something like this that And it it runs something like this that you know the first time a a mother you know the first time a a mother you know the first time a a mother carries a son carries a son carries a son that that son is carrying some genes that that son is carrying some genes that that son is carrying some genes that her immune system has never seen that her immune system has never seen that her immune system has never seen before. All the genes on the Y before. All the genes on the Y before. All the genes on the Y chromosome, there's no way her immune chromosome, there's no way her immune chromosome, there's no way her immune system could have seen it. And as long system could have seen it. And as long system could have seen it. And as long as that first son is in uterero, her as that first son is in uterero, her as that first son is in uterero, her immune system never sees it. But immune system never sees it. But immune system never sees it. But inevitably at birth, whether it's inevitably at birth, whether it's inevitably at birth, whether it's cesarian section or vaginal delivery, cesarian section or vaginal delivery, cesarian section or vaginal delivery, there's always blood and there's always there's always blood and there's always there's always blood and there's always mixing of blood. And so at that point, mixing of blood. And so at that point, mixing of blood. And so at that point, the mother's immune system is going to the mother's immune system is going to the mother's immune system is going to see these male specific antigens that see these male specific antigens that see these male specific antigens that it's never seen before. Of course, it's it's never seen before. Of course, it's it's never seen before. Of course, it's going to regard it as an invader and going to regard it as an invader and going to regard it as an invader and it's going to start making antibodies to it's going to start making antibodies to it's going to start making antibodies to it. So their hypothesis is that each it. So their hypothesis is that each it. So their hypothesis is that each time a woman delivers another son, her time a woman delivers another son, her time a woman delivers another son, her immune system is going to generate more immune system is going to generate more immune system is going to generate more of these antibodies. And if she has a of these antibodies. And if she has a of these antibodies. And if she has a subsequent son, antibodies cross the subsequent son, antibodies cross the subsequent son, antibodies cross the placenta just fine. And so in fact, the placenta just fine. And so in fact, the placenta just fine. And so in fact, the placenta very actively sends antibodies placenta very actively sends antibodies placenta very actively sends antibodies across to protect the young. And so that across to protect the young. And so that across to protect the young. And so that would mean that her antibodies are going would mean that her antibodies are going would mean that her antibodies are going into this third son and somehow altering into this third son and somehow altering into this third son and somehow altering the development of their brain. And the the development of their brain. And the the development of their brain. And the strong evidence they found in favor of strong evidence they found in favor of strong evidence they found in favor of this is that in in women who have sons this is that in in women who have sons this is that in in women who have sons where there's this pattern that looks where there's this pattern that looks where there's this pattern that looks like that might have happened, it turns like that might have happened, it turns like that might have happened, it turns out they have higher levels than control out they have higher levels than control out they have higher levels than control mothers of antibodies to a male specific mothers of antibodies to a male specific mothers of antibodies to a male specific antigen. quite specifically an antigen antigen. quite specifically an antigen antigen. quite specifically an antigen to a protein called neuroligan 4y. So to a protein called neuroligan 4y. So to a protein called neuroligan 4y. So neurolation molecules neurolation molecules neurolation molecules >> exactly you you know that neuroligans >> exactly you you know that neuroligans >> exactly you you know that neuroligans are important for syninnapse formation are important for syninnapse formation are important for syninnapse formation >> and it turns out there's several copies >> and it turns out there's several copies >> and it turns out there's several copies not unusual in humans uh and this one not unusual in humans uh and this one not unusual in humans uh and this one neuroligan 4 there's one on the X neuroligan 4 there's one on the X neuroligan 4 there's one on the X chromosome and one on Y chromosome and chromosome and one on Y chromosome and chromosome and one on Y chromosome and they're slightly different and so uh the they're slightly different and so uh the they're slightly different and so uh the fact that these mothers are making fact that these mothers are making fact that these mothers are making antibodies to this male specific antigen antibodies to this male specific antigen antibodies to this male specific antigen and that in their particular family it and that in their particular family it and that in their particular family it looks like subsequent sons who are more looks like subsequent sons who are more looks like subsequent sons who are more likely to be gay. You can imagine that's likely to be gay. You can imagine that's likely to be gay. You can imagine that's what's going on. That her her immune what's going on. That her her immune what's going on. That her her immune system has perturbed the development of system has perturbed the development of system has perturbed the development of that subsequent son enough that when that subsequent son enough that when that subsequent son enough that when they grow up, they're more likely to be they grow up, they're more likely to be they grow up, they're more likely to be gay. Whatever the mechanism is, it has gay. Whatever the mechanism is, it has gay. Whatever the mechanism is, it has to be that it's the mother's body that to be that it's the mother's body that to be that it's the mother's body that is remembering how many sons she's is remembering how many sons she's is remembering how many sons she's carried before them, right? And it's got carried before them, right? And it's got carried before them, right? And it's got to be the mother's body that somehow is to be the mother's body that somehow is to be the mother's body that somehow is doing something to perturb the doing something to perturb the doing something to perturb the development of her subsequent sons to development of her subsequent sons to development of her subsequent sons to make them more likely to be gay. It's a make them more likely to be gay. It's a make them more likely to be gay. It's a fascinating idea and it also gets at fascinating idea and it also gets at fascinating idea and it also gets at that same uh theme that I mentioned that same uh theme that I mentioned that same uh theme that I mentioned before. There are lots of different before. There are lots of different before. There are lots of different developmental pathways to end up being developmental pathways to end up being developmental pathways to end up being gay or to end up being straight. And gay or to end up being straight. And gay or to end up being straight. And it's there there isn't going to be one it's there there isn't going to be one it's there there isn't going to be one cause of anything in human behavior and cause of anything in human behavior and cause of anything in human behavior and certainly not of sexual orientation. But certainly not of sexual orientation. But certainly not of sexual orientation. But I think the evidence is looking pretty I think the evidence is looking pretty I think the evidence is looking pretty strong uh that for uh women at least strong uh that for uh women at least strong uh that for uh women at least prenatal testosterone does have a say. prenatal testosterone does have a say. prenatal testosterone does have a say. And we know that in men, the the And we know that in men, the the And we know that in men, the the mother's body has a say in whether mother's body has a say in whether mother's body has a say in whether they're going to be gay or straight when they're going to be gay or straight when they're going to be gay or straight when they grow up. they grow up. they grow up. >> The result is so cool because once >> The result is so cool because once >> The result is so cool because once again, it spits in the face of these again, it spits in the face of these again, it spits in the face of these like kind of reflexive assumptions. like kind of reflexive assumptions. like kind of reflexive assumptions. For instance, you could imagine, and I For instance, you could imagine, and I For instance, you could imagine, and I probably grew up hearing like, oh, you probably grew up hearing like, oh, you probably grew up hearing like, oh, you know, he was raised around a lot of know, he was raised around a lot of know, he was raised around a lot of girls or something, you know, had a lot girls or something, you know, had a lot girls or something, you know, had a lot of sisters or he had an older sister or of sisters or he had an older sister or of sisters or he had an older sister or three, right? or um dad left the house, three, right? or um dad left the house, three, right? or um dad left the house, you know, I mean this didn't happen so you know, I mean this didn't happen so you know, I mean this didn't happen so much in the 70s and 80s and but it was much in the 70s and 80s and but it was much in the 70s and 80s and but it was more frequent um in the 90s, you know, more frequent um in the 90s, you know, more frequent um in the 90s, you know, back then it was called broken homes. back then it was called broken homes. back then it was called broken homes. Now people be like, what are you talking Now people be like, what are you talking Now people be like, what are you talking about? Like everyone knows somebody about? Like everyone knows somebody about? Like everyone knows somebody divorced, right? So, but back then it divorced, right? So, but back then it divorced, right? So, but back then it was more rare and there was this idea was more rare and there was this idea was more rare and there was this idea like lack of male influence and of like lack of male influence and of like lack of male influence and of course there are important I believe course there are important I believe course there are important I believe gender specific influences on kids um in gender specific influences on kids um in gender specific influences on kids um in terms of upbringing but in terms of the terms of upbringing but in terms of the terms of upbringing but in terms of the stereotype that seems to have largely stereotype that seems to have largely stereotype that seems to have largely dissipated but that you know like having dissipated but that you know like having dissipated but that you know like having an older sister or three would make a an older sister or three would make a an older sister or three would make a son more likely be gay. It's exactly the son more likely be gay. It's exactly the son more likely be gay. It's exactly the opposite when you look at the biology. opposite when you look at the biology. opposite when you look at the biology. >> Yeah. I mean, Ray's looked at that very >> Yeah. I mean, Ray's looked at that very >> Yeah. I mean, Ray's looked at that very carefully and so older sisters don't carefully and so older sisters don't carefully and so older sisters don't matter and and neither do younger matter and and neither do younger matter and and neither do younger sisters. And here's the other thing that sisters. And here's the other thing that sisters. And here's the other thing that younger brothers don't matter, right? So younger brothers don't matter, right? So younger brothers don't matter, right? So no matter how many younger brothers you no matter how many younger brothers you no matter how many younger brothers you have, that doesn't change your odds of have, that doesn't change your odds of have, that doesn't change your odds of being gay when you grow up. So it's it's being gay when you grow up. So it's it's being gay when you grow up. So it's it's that that's why I say it's got to be the that that's why I say it's got to be the that that's why I say it's got to be the mother's body that is remembering. And mother's body that is remembering. And mother's body that is remembering. And it doesn't seem to be socially mediated. it doesn't seem to be socially mediated. it doesn't seem to be socially mediated. It is, you know, independent of that. It It is, you know, independent of that. It It is, you know, independent of that. It is nature having its say. males with is nature having its say. males with is nature having its say. males with congenital adrenal hyperplasia. We congenital adrenal hyperplasia. We congenital adrenal hyperplasia. We didn't talk about that. Um and perhaps didn't talk about that. Um and perhaps didn't talk about that. Um and perhaps more important is to talk about males more important is to talk about males more important is to talk about males and females with congenital adrenal and females with congenital adrenal and females with congenital adrenal hyperplasia but are hetererozygos. So hyperplasia but are hetererozygos. So hyperplasia but are hetererozygos. So they have one functional copy, one um they have one functional copy, one um they have one functional copy, one um non-functional copy. And the reason I non-functional copy. And the reason I non-functional copy. And the reason I raise this raise this raise this >> is that it's very common. It's one in >> is that it's very common. It's one in >> is that it's very common. It's one in 12. 12. 12. >> Huh. 1 in 12, which is seems like an >> Huh. 1 in 12, which is seems like an >> Huh. 1 in 12, which is seems like an outrageously high number, but it's one outrageously high number, but it's one outrageously high number, but it's one of the things that is immediately of the things that is immediately of the things that is immediately screened for, maybe not as much as some screened for, maybe not as much as some screened for, maybe not as much as some other, you know, blood related diseases other, you know, blood related diseases other, you know, blood related diseases and things like that. No, I I didn't and things like that. No, I I didn't and things like that. No, I I didn't know that, but but but I can see I mean, know that, but but but I can see I mean, know that, but but but I can see I mean, you have to remember actually there are you have to remember actually there are you have to remember actually there are several different genetic mutations several different genetic mutations several different genetic mutations along the pathway of making adrenal along the pathway of making adrenal along the pathway of making adrenal steroids that can go wrong. And so there steroids that can go wrong. And so there steroids that can go wrong. And so there are several steps that have to be there are several steps that have to be there are several steps that have to be there for them to make adrenal steroids. So for them to make adrenal steroids. So for them to make adrenal steroids. So number one, there's more than one site number one, there's more than one site number one, there's more than one site where the mutations would be carried and where the mutations would be carried and where the mutations would be carried and of course um the hetererozygot are you of course um the hetererozygot are you of course um the hetererozygot are you know may have no symptoms whatsoever and know may have no symptoms whatsoever and know may have no symptoms whatsoever and so they they may reproduce just fine. so they they may reproduce just fine. so they they may reproduce just fine. >> We know this that that sorry I should be >> We know this that that sorry I should be >> We know this that that sorry I should be clear because people are probably clear because people are probably clear because people are probably thinking wow one in 12 uh both males and thinking wow one in 12 uh both males and thinking wow one in 12 uh both males and females that carry one mutant copy of females that carry one mutant copy of females that carry one mutant copy of Cah are capable of healthy reproduction. Cah are capable of healthy reproduction. Cah are capable of healthy reproduction. Um there are some hypomorphic Um there are some hypomorphic Um there are some hypomorphic phenotypes. Some people make more phenotypes. Some people make more phenotypes. Some people make more androgens. Some people have a sustained androgens. Some people have a sustained androgens. Some people have a sustained stress response. Um, it's not very well stress response. Um, it's not very well stress response. Um, it's not very well studied, but it is very common, which I studied, but it is very common, which I studied, but it is very common, which I found interesting. found interesting. found interesting. >> Another reason why the carriers are so >> Another reason why the carriers are so >> Another reason why the carriers are so common is because typically there's no common is because typically there's no common is because typically there's no no phenotype or if there is, it's subtle no phenotype or if there is, it's subtle no phenotype or if there is, it's subtle and so it doesn't come to the attention and so it doesn't come to the attention and so it doesn't come to the attention of any any physicians. It's only when of any any physicians. It's only when of any any physicians. It's only when two two two defective copies of the gene come defective copies of the gene come defective copies of the gene come together in one offspring that there's together in one offspring that there's together in one offspring that there's no adrenal steroid production at all and no adrenal steroid production at all and no adrenal steroid production at all and then things happen enough to get the then things happen enough to get the then things happen enough to get the attention of the doctors. Yeah, I've attention of the doctors. Yeah, I've attention of the doctors. Yeah, I've looked into this and it does seem like looked into this and it does seem like looked into this and it does seem like uh one mutant copy of CH is is you find uh one mutant copy of CH is is you find uh one mutant copy of CH is is you find it just statistically uh more frequent it just statistically uh more frequent it just statistically uh more frequent in professions or sports where there's a in professions or sports where there's a in professions or sports where there's a requirement for um long duration stress requirement for um long duration stress requirement for um long duration stress tolerance which makes sense right I mean tolerance which makes sense right I mean tolerance which makes sense right I mean so some of these genes could confer an so some of these genes could confer an so some of these genes could confer an advantage some could confer a advantage some could confer a advantage some could confer a disadvantage in different settings disadvantage in different settings disadvantage in different settings >> and that there might be a hetererozygote >> and that there might be a hetererozygote >> and that there might be a hetererozygote advantage I mean you know the classic advantage I mean you know the classic advantage I mean you know the classic example of cickle cell anemia right? example of cickle cell anemia right? example of cickle cell anemia right? Where being a hetererozygote for that Where being a hetererozygote for that Where being a hetererozygote for that gene confers an advantage if there's gene confers an advantage if there's gene confers an advantage if there's malaria in the area, you'll be less malaria in the area, you'll be less malaria in the area, you'll be less likely to succumb. Things go wrong when likely to succumb. Things go wrong when likely to succumb. Things go wrong when two uh copies come together in one two uh copies come together in one two uh copies come together in one individual and and that's when the the individual and and that's when the the individual and and that's when the the blood cells are especially affected and blood cells are especially affected and blood cells are especially affected and things go wrong when an offspring gets things go wrong when an offspring gets things go wrong when an offspring gets two such copies and which is relatively two such copies and which is relatively two such copies and which is relatively rare but it does happen and and in that rare but it does happen and and in that rare but it does happen and and in that case then then the offspring is very case then then the offspring is very case then then the offspring is very sick. Did you ever do the head sick. Did you ever do the head sick. Did you ever do the head transplantation experiment on the transplantation experiment on the transplantation experiment on the finches? finches? finches? >> That's amazing what sort of a a memory >> That's amazing what sort of a a memory >> That's amazing what sort of a a memory you have. No. No, I never did. you have. No. No, I never did. you have. No. No, I never did. >> You want to explain what this was >> You want to explain what this was >> You want to explain what this was because I'm not going to do it because I'm not going to do it because I'm not going to do it correctly, but I remember you wanted to correctly, but I remember you wanted to correctly, but I remember you wanted to do an experiment where you were going to do an experiment where you were going to do an experiment where you were going to transplant finch heads. transplant finch heads. transplant finch heads. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, >> and I thought it was the coolest >> and I thought it was the coolest >> and I thought it was the coolest experiment ever because it was going to experiment ever because it was going to experiment ever because it was going to be done be done be done >> as embryos. So, no, it was not taking >> as embryos. So, no, it was not taking >> as embryos. So, no, it was not taking heads off of birds. Um, it was an embryo heads off of birds. Um, it was an embryo heads off of birds. Um, it was an embryo experiment. But I think we should talk experiment. But I think we should talk experiment. But I think we should talk about the backdrop of this. Male birds about the backdrop of this. Male birds about the backdrop of this. Male birds of certain species sing. Female birds of certain species sing. Female birds of certain species sing. Female birds don't. Right. don't. Right. don't. Right. >> So you wanted to embriionically >> So you wanted to embriionically >> So you wanted to embriionically put a female head on a male body, a male put a female head on a male body, a male put a female head on a male body, a male >> finch head on a female body and you >> finch head on a female body and you >> finch head on a female body and you wanted to swap head bodies of these wanted to swap head bodies of these wanted to swap head bodies of these embryos. Tell us the experiment. embryos. Tell us the experiment. embryos. Tell us the experiment. >> I'm certainly looking like like the mad >> I'm certainly looking like like the mad >> I'm certainly looking like like the mad scientist. scientist. scientist. >> Well, let me tell Wait, wait, hold on. >> Well, let me tell Wait, wait, hold on. >> Well, let me tell Wait, wait, hold on. Crazier things have been done with US Crazier things have been done with US Crazier things have been done with US tax dollars like brain mice, mice that tax dollars like brain mice, mice that tax dollars like brain mice, mice that glow, you know, 215 different glow, you know, 215 different glow, you know, 215 different fluorescent colors to identify different fluorescent colors to identify different fluorescent colors to identify different cell types. I mean, I could go on and on cell types. I mean, I could go on and on cell types. I mean, I could go on and on and on. I I I think um this experiment and on. I I I think um this experiment and on. I I I think um this experiment has a purpose to get at a principle that has a purpose to get at a principle that has a purpose to get at a principle that can't be understood any other way. So, can't be understood any other way. So, can't be understood any other way. So, it's not just tinkering for the sake of it's not just tinkering for the sake of it's not just tinkering for the sake of tinkering. tinkering. tinkering. >> In fact, people do those sorts of >> In fact, people do those sorts of >> In fact, people do those sorts of transplants in birds. So a very famous transplants in birds. So a very famous transplants in birds. So a very famous neuroscientist from France, Nicole neuroscientist from France, Nicole neuroscientist from France, Nicole Luran, uh did these experiments where Luran, uh did these experiments where Luran, uh did these experiments where she would open up chick embryos and she would open up chick embryos and she would open up chick embryos and quail embryos and she could scoop out quail embryos and she could scoop out quail embryos and she could scoop out part of the nervous system from one and part of the nervous system from one and part of the nervous system from one and implanted in the other and she'd know implanted in the other and she'd know implanted in the other and she'd know when she had done it right that she had when she had done it right that she had when she had done it right that she had a way of telling the cells apart under a a way of telling the cells apart under a a way of telling the cells apart under a microscope. Plus, when they grew up microscope. Plus, when they grew up microscope. Plus, when they grew up here, you'd have this white leg horn here, you'd have this white leg horn here, you'd have this white leg horn chicken with a streak of brown feathers chicken with a streak of brown feathers chicken with a streak of brown feathers right where she right where she right where she >> Was it called a quicken? >> Was it called a quicken? >> Was it called a quicken? >> Pardon? >> Pardon? >> Pardon? >> Sorry, couldn't help myself. >> Sorry, couldn't help myself. >> Sorry, couldn't help myself. >> Here you'd have this white legghorn >> Here you'd have this white legghorn >> Here you'd have this white legghorn chicken with with a streak of brown chicken with with a streak of brown chicken with with a streak of brown feathers in the middle that were derived feathers in the middle that were derived feathers in the middle that were derived from the quail. And so, it is possible from the quail. And so, it is possible from the quail. And so, it is possible to do those sorts of swaps. And of to do those sorts of swaps. And of to do those sorts of swaps. And of course, this is what's so great about course, this is what's so great about course, this is what's so great about working with birds is their embryos are, working with birds is their embryos are, working with birds is their embryos are, you know, easy to get to for the first you know, easy to get to for the first you know, easy to get to for the first 21 days or so. uh so people had done 21 days or so. uh so people had done 21 days or so. uh so people had done those sorts of experiments. There was a those sorts of experiments. There was a those sorts of experiments. There was a question about sexual differentiation of question about sexual differentiation of question about sexual differentiation of the brain in birds the brain in birds the brain in birds because the and I'll tell you why it because the and I'll tell you why it because the and I'll tell you why it turned out I didn't need to do that turned out I didn't need to do that turned out I didn't need to do that experiment and and it wouldn't wouldn't experiment and and it wouldn't wouldn't experiment and and it wouldn't wouldn't have shown what we wanted. Um that is so have shown what we wanted. Um that is so have shown what we wanted. Um that is so there are sometimes you'll see in the there are sometimes you'll see in the there are sometimes you'll see in the news someone will find a janomorph news someone will find a janomorph news someone will find a janomorph in birds. Yep. in birds. Yep. in birds. Yep. >> Jan janandramorph. So half female Jen >> Jan janandramorph. So half female Jen >> Jan janandramorph. So half female Jen and half male Andro. And when it happens and half male Andro. And when it happens and half male Andro. And when it happens in cardinals, for example, it's like the in cardinals, for example, it's like the in cardinals, for example, it's like the animal's been split down the middle. animal's been split down the middle. animal's been split down the middle. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Yes. Where the one side is the bright >> Yes. Where the one side is the bright >> Yes. Where the one side is the bright red of a male with a crest, etc. And the red of a male with a crest, etc. And the red of a male with a crest, etc. And the other side isn't. Right. So these these other side isn't. Right. So these these other side isn't. Right. So these these occur occasionally. And our best occur occasionally. And our best occur occasionally. And our best understanding of what happened there, understanding of what happened there, understanding of what happened there, first of all, the sex chromosome is a first of all, the sex chromosome is a first of all, the sex chromosome is a little different in birds than mammals. little different in birds than mammals. little different in birds than mammals. I'm going to gloss over that. But our I'm going to gloss over that. But our I'm going to gloss over that. But our best understanding of what happened best understanding of what happened best understanding of what happened there is this is a case where two there is this is a case where two there is this is a case where two embryos, one that was carrying male sex embryos, one that was carrying male sex embryos, one that was carrying male sex chromosomes and the other female sex chromosomes and the other female sex chromosomes and the other female sex chromosomes came together and at an chromosomes came together and at an chromosomes came together and at an early stage and so what we have is a is early stage and so what we have is a is early stage and so what we have is a is a mosaic animal where one side is a mosaic animal where one side is a mosaic animal where one side is genetically male and the other side is genetically male and the other side is genetically male and the other side is genetically female. Now, in a mammal, if genetically female. Now, in a mammal, if genetically female. Now, in a mammal, if that happened, that happened, that happened, the testice on the male side would the testice on the male side would the testice on the male side would masculinize everything by using masculinize everything by using masculinize everything by using hormones. The the clue that something hormones. The the clue that something hormones. The the clue that something else is going on in birds is that in else is going on in birds is that in else is going on in birds is that in this case, the you know, there's not this case, the you know, there's not this case, the you know, there's not been this blending. And when Art Arnold been this blending. And when Art Arnold been this blending. And when Art Arnold and others looked at the brains of uh and others looked at the brains of uh and others looked at the brains of uh Janandraorphs, Janandraorphs, Janandraorphs, sure enough, the sex differences where sure enough, the sex differences where sure enough, the sex differences where this region HBC for example uh is tends this region HBC for example uh is tends this region HBC for example uh is tends to be larger in males and females. In to be larger in males and females. In to be larger in males and females. In these animals, it was larger on one side these animals, it was larger on one side these animals, it was larger on one side of the body than on the other. So they of the body than on the other. So they of the body than on the other. So they were indeed, you know, split. Well, this were indeed, you know, split. Well, this were indeed, you know, split. Well, this this suggested that that gonatal this suggested that that gonatal this suggested that that gonatal hormones were not in charge of sexual hormones were not in charge of sexual hormones were not in charge of sexual differentiation. And so what I wanted to differentiation. And so what I wanted to differentiation. And so what I wanted to do and never figured out quite how to do do and never figured out quite how to do do and never figured out quite how to do um was to take a male brain and put it um was to take a male brain and put it um was to take a male brain and put it on a female body and vice versa to ask on a female body and vice versa to ask on a female body and vice versa to ask what sexual differentiation will be what sexual differentiation will be what sexual differentiation will be like. Will the whole body listen to the like. Will the whole body listen to the like. Will the whole body listen to the brain and become male or will the brain and become male or will the brain and become male or will the gonads? It was a crazy experiment where gonads? It was a crazy experiment where gonads? It was a crazy experiment where if I could dissociate what the sex of if I could dissociate what the sex of if I could dissociate what the sex of the gonad was from what the sex of the the gonad was from what the sex of the the gonad was from what the sex of the brain was and what would happen but it brain was and what would happen but it brain was and what would happen but it turned out you know I I didn't have the turned out you know I I didn't have the turned out you know I I didn't have the good hands that that you do for example good hands that that you do for example good hands that that you do for example I never learned how to do that I never learned how to do that I never learned how to do that experiment but one resolution of it is experiment but one resolution of it is experiment but one resolution of it is one of the things we now know is going one of the things we now know is going one of the things we now know is going on in birds is that in some cases it's on in birds is that in some cases it's on in birds is that in some cases it's the brain itself that's making the the brain itself that's making the the brain itself that's making the hormone hormone hormone and is masculineizing itself. So in and is masculineizing itself. So in and is masculineizing itself. So in birds there's pretty good evidence that birds there's pretty good evidence that birds there's pretty good evidence that brain sexual differentiation happens brain sexual differentiation happens brain sexual differentiation happens because the genetic sex of the brain because the genetic sex of the brain because the genetic sex of the brain determines how much hormone including determines how much hormone including determines how much hormone including testosterone and estrogen is getting testosterone and estrogen is getting testosterone and estrogen is getting made locally and that that then is made locally and that that then is made locally and that that then is driving sexual differentiation and driving sexual differentiation and driving sexual differentiation and that's why you can have you know one that's why you can have you know one that's why you can have you know one side of the brain is male and the other side of the brain is male and the other side of the brain is male and the other side is females and that just doesn't side is females and that just doesn't side is females and that just doesn't happen in mammals. That's the mechanism. happen in mammals. That's the mechanism. happen in mammals. That's the mechanism. Once you start using gonatal hormones to Once you start using gonatal hormones to Once you start using gonatal hormones to direct sexual differentiation, you can direct sexual differentiation, you can direct sexual differentiation, you can end up with that sort of mosaicism, end up with that sort of mosaicism, end up with that sort of mosaicism, which is maybe too bad. I mean, there which is maybe too bad. I mean, there which is maybe too bad. I mean, there are carnival acts where supposedly one are carnival acts where supposedly one are carnival acts where supposedly one side of the body is male and the other side of the body is male and the other side of the body is male and the other side is female and those have been side is female and those have been side is female and those have been around for quite a while, but that's a around for quite a while, but that's a around for quite a while, but that's a different thing. different thing. different thing. >> Going to give you two real world >> Going to give you two real world >> Going to give you two real world examples. Real because um I was told examples. Real because um I was told examples. Real because um I was told them and I believe them. Um, in them and I believe them. Um, in them and I believe them. Um, in anticipation of our conversation today, anticipation of our conversation today, anticipation of our conversation today, I I ventured into um some corners of the I I ventured into um some corners of the I I ventured into um some corners of the internet I kind of wish I hadn't. Um, internet I kind of wish I hadn't. Um, internet I kind of wish I hadn't. Um, but you know, in uh gym culture, but you know, in uh gym culture, but you know, in uh gym culture, bodybuilding culture, there is a subset bodybuilding culture, there is a subset bodybuilding culture, there is a subset of people, I don't recommend it, that of people, I don't recommend it, that of people, I don't recommend it, that take um synthetic androgens, anabolic take um synthetic androgens, anabolic take um synthetic androgens, anabolic steroids of different kinds and in steroids of different kinds and in steroids of different kinds and in different combinations. And um again I different combinations. And um again I different combinations. And um again I don't recommend people do this um don't recommend people do this um don't recommend people do this um but it's entirely different than hormone but it's entirely different than hormone but it's entirely different than hormone replacement therapy or something like replacement therapy or something like replacement therapy or something like that like experimentation with high that like experimentation with high that like experimentation with high dosages of different types of dosages of different types of dosages of different types of testosterone derivatives. testosterone derivatives. testosterone derivatives. My interest in understanding a little My interest in understanding a little My interest in understanding a little bit of what some of the general bit of what some of the general bit of what some of the general observations are there is is a naturally observations are there is is a naturally observations are there is is a naturally occurring experiment with some thematic occurring experiment with some thematic occurring experiment with some thematic averages which is geek speak for like if averages which is geek speak for like if averages which is geek speak for like if one person reports something it means one person reports something it means one person reports something it means nothing but if hundreds of people or nothing but if hundreds of people or nothing but if hundreds of people or thousands of people validate that thousands of people validate that thousands of people validate that experience. You think well this kind of experience. You think well this kind of experience. You think well this kind of you know you know you know >> these aren't controlled studies but >> these aren't controlled studies but >> these aren't controlled studies but nonetheless might be interesting. And um nonetheless might be interesting. And um nonetheless might be interesting. And um those communities have uh long talked those communities have uh long talked those communities have uh long talked about how different forms of androgens about how different forms of androgens about how different forms of androgens um have different effects on psychology. um have different effects on psychology. um have different effects on psychology. And in particular these days you can And in particular these days you can And in particular these days you can find a lot of discussion uh um in those find a lot of discussion uh um in those find a lot of discussion uh um in those communities of certain um anabolic communities of certain um anabolic communities of certain um anabolic steroids. Trenbalone in particular that steroids. Trenbalone in particular that steroids. Trenbalone in particular that causes aggression but that is well known causes aggression but that is well known causes aggression but that is well known for um for um for um causing otherwise self-reporting as causing otherwise self-reporting as causing otherwise self-reporting as heterosexual males to start um wanting heterosexual males to start um wanting heterosexual males to start um wanting to have sex essentially with males or to have sex essentially with males or to have sex essentially with males or females. Um this is an effect that seems females. Um this is an effect that seems females. Um this is an effect that seems reversible when they stop. It seems reversible when they stop. It seems reversible when they stop. It seems generally associated with a kind of a generally associated with a kind of a generally associated with a kind of a hypersexuality. Yeah. hypersexuality. Yeah. hypersexuality. Yeah. >> Um so that's an important variable, >> Um so that's an important variable, >> Um so that's an important variable, right? Um so there's all sorts of right? Um so there's all sorts of right? Um so there's all sorts of variables there. So, so that's one variables there. So, so that's one variables there. So, so that's one observation that um that makes me wonder observation that um that makes me wonder observation that um that makes me wonder if the adult brain is still plastic at if the adult brain is still plastic at if the adult brain is still plastic at the level of the hypothalamus to the level of the hypothalamus to the level of the hypothalamus to androgens later in life. Now this is not androgens later in life. Now this is not androgens later in life. Now this is not to say that the many now millions of men to say that the many now millions of men to say that the many now millions of men who are taking testosterone replacement who are taking testosterone replacement who are taking testosterone replacement which very very common doing that safely which very very common doing that safely which very very common doing that safely with doctor's uh support etc are um with doctor's uh support etc are um with doctor's uh support etc are um they're not trying to boost things into they're not trying to boost things into they're not trying to boost things into superphysiological superphysiological superphysiological range but it's a naturally occurring range but it's a naturally occurring range but it's a naturally occurring experiment with very few controls and experiment with very few controls and experiment with very few controls and only anecdotal reports but it suggests only anecdotal reports but it suggests only anecdotal reports but it suggests that the adult hypothalamus that the adult hypothalamus that the adult hypothalamus is still androgen sensitive in ways that is still androgen sensitive in ways that is still androgen sensitive in ways that could drive pretty powerful um changes could drive pretty powerful um changes could drive pretty powerful um changes in behavior and perception. in behavior and perception. in behavior and perception. >> And we know that is true because back in >> And we know that is true because back in >> And we know that is true because back in the previous century, Julian Davidson at the previous century, Julian Davidson at the previous century, Julian Davidson at Stanford actually in the physiology Stanford actually in the physiology Stanford actually in the physiology department there uh was among the first department there uh was among the first department there uh was among the first to do these double blind placeboc to do these double blind placeboc to do these double blind placeboc controlled studies in men who had lost controlled studies in men who had lost controlled studies in men who had lost their testes for one reason or another, their testes for one reason or another, their testes for one reason or another, accident or cancer, things like that. accident or cancer, things like that. accident or cancer, things like that. And um and so double blind means neither And um and so double blind means neither And um and so double blind means neither the man nor the physician who was the man nor the physician who was the man nor the physician who was interacting with him had any idea interacting with him had any idea interacting with him had any idea whether he was getting the placebo or whether he was getting the placebo or whether he was getting the placebo or the testosterone. the testosterone. the testosterone. And that's of course really important And that's of course really important And that's of course really important for coming up with conclusions. And they for coming up with conclusions. And they for coming up with conclusions. And they concluded uh that in fact the men who concluded uh that in fact the men who concluded uh that in fact the men who were getting testosterone definitely were getting testosterone definitely were getting testosterone definitely reported feeling better, feeling more reported feeling better, feeling more reported feeling better, feeling more energetic, having a higher libido, and energetic, having a higher libido, and energetic, having a higher libido, and they definitely felt better overall. And they definitely felt better overall. And they definitely felt better overall. And and Julian said sort of the joke is that and Julian said sort of the joke is that and Julian said sort of the joke is that even though it was the men were supposed even though it was the men were supposed even though it was the men were supposed to be blind to which treatment they were to be blind to which treatment they were to be blind to which treatment they were getting, they always knew. They always getting, they always knew. They always getting, they always knew. They always knew when they were getting the knew when they were getting the knew when they were getting the testosterone because they felt so much testosterone because they felt so much testosterone because they felt so much better. So we know for certain that better. So we know for certain that better. So we know for certain that testosterone does have effects on the testosterone does have effects on the testosterone does have effects on the adult brain uh in many of these cases, adult brain uh in many of these cases, adult brain uh in many of these cases, right? These were men prostate cancer right? These were men prostate cancer right? These were men prostate cancer cases who were elderly yet and still um cases who were elderly yet and still um cases who were elderly yet and still um they still responded to that. they still responded to that. they still responded to that. >> Yeah. One thing I learned from your >> Yeah. One thing I learned from your >> Yeah. One thing I learned from your textbook um was that you know this idea textbook um was that you know this idea textbook um was that you know this idea that testosterone diminishes with age is that testosterone diminishes with age is that testosterone diminishes with age is largely true but the rates are are largely true but the rates are are largely true but the rates are are highly variable and that you know there highly variable and that you know there highly variable and that you know there there are some individual points on the there are some individual points on the there are some individual points on the scatter plot whereby you'll see somebody scatter plot whereby you'll see somebody scatter plot whereby you'll see somebody in their 70s or 80s whose testosterone in their 70s or 80s whose testosterone in their 70s or 80s whose testosterone is very similar to someone in their 20s is very similar to someone in their 20s is very similar to someone in their 20s or 30s. Now everyone nowadays talks or 30s. Now everyone nowadays talks or 30s. Now everyone nowadays talks about how testosterone rates are about how testosterone rates are about how testosterone rates are dropping. It's a you know it's these are dropping. It's a you know it's these are dropping. It's a you know it's these are older studies but um it suggests that older studies but um it suggests that older studies but um it suggests that there's a tremendous amount of there's a tremendous amount of there's a tremendous amount of variation. Um we also know that absolute variation. Um we also know that absolute variation. Um we also know that absolute numbers don't necessarily uh dictate how numbers don't necessarily uh dictate how numbers don't necessarily uh dictate how people feel. In fact the CEO of a very people feel. In fact the CEO of a very people feel. In fact the CEO of a very very very successful company not a tech very very successful company not a tech very very successful company not a tech company an entertainment company came up company an entertainment company came up company an entertainment company came up to me once at a private party and said to me once at a private party and said to me once at a private party and said that his testosterone was down in the that his testosterone was down in the that his testosterone was down in the low 300s. So this is approaching the low 300s. So this is approaching the low 300s. So this is approaching the lower end of the reference range but he lower end of the reference range but he lower end of the reference range but he feels great. And I said, 'If you're feels great. And I said, 'If you're feels great. And I said, 'If you're willing, like what variables are we willing, like what variables are we willing, like what variables are we talking about here? And he explained, talking about here? And he explained, talking about here? And he explained, you know, vigor and he explained um you you know, vigor and he explained um you you know, vigor and he explained um you know, libido and he explained, you know, know, libido and he explained, you know, know, libido and he explained, you know, general enthusiasm for life. And um and general enthusiasm for life. And um and general enthusiasm for life. And um and I said, well, I wouldn't change a thing I said, well, I wouldn't change a thing I said, well, I wouldn't change a thing in that case, right? I mean, there's in that case, right? I mean, there's in that case, right? I mean, there's he's a perfect case whereby low end of he's a perfect case whereby low end of he's a perfect case whereby low end of normal is not a problem. And who knows, normal is not a problem. And who knows, normal is not a problem. And who knows, maybe had he taken more, he would have maybe had he taken more, he would have maybe had he taken more, he would have aromatized more to estrogen and he aromatized more to estrogen and he aromatized more to estrogen and he wouldn't have felt as good, for wouldn't have felt as good, for wouldn't have felt as good, for instance. instance. instance. >> No, I agree. I mean, if it ain't broke, >> No, I agree. I mean, if it ain't broke, >> No, I agree. I mean, if it ain't broke, you know, leave it alone. you know, leave it alone. you know, leave it alone. >> Yeah. I think it's something that >> Yeah. I think it's something that >> Yeah. I think it's something that doesn't get mentioned enough doesn't get mentioned enough doesn't get mentioned enough >> and but you also point out why humans >> and but you also point out why humans >> and but you also point out why humans are such lousy research subjects because are such lousy research subjects because are such lousy research subjects because there's so much variability uh going on. there's so much variability uh going on. there's so much variability uh going on. Um so what what I can say is that uh for Um so what what I can say is that uh for Um so what what I can say is that uh for the decline in testosterone levels in the decline in testosterone levels in the decline in testosterone levels in men uh first of all it's so much more men uh first of all it's so much more men uh first of all it's so much more gradual compared to what happens to gradual compared to what happens to gradual compared to what happens to women at menopause right there no women at menopause right there no women at menopause right there no comparison whatsoever and there is comparison whatsoever and there is comparison whatsoever and there is incredible amount of variation across incredible amount of variation across incredible amount of variation across subjects and so uh once again even subjects and so uh once again even subjects and so uh once again even though you can say statistically we know though you can say statistically we know though you can say statistically we know this is a trend I I can't make you you this is a trend I I can't make you you this is a trend I I can't make you you tell me someone's 71 years old just to tell me someone's 71 years old just to tell me someone's 71 years old just to pick on me I I can't predict what pick on me I I can't predict what pick on me I I can't predict what they're testosterone levels are going to they're testosterone levels are going to they're testosterone levels are going to be like or not very well. be like or not very well. be like or not very well. >> Another uh sociological observation uh >> Another uh sociological observation uh >> Another uh sociological observation uh from the internet. from the internet. from the internet. >> Everything on the internet is true. >> Everything on the internet is true. >> Everything on the internet is true. >> Certainly not everything on the internet >> Certainly not everything on the internet >> Certainly not everything on the internet is true. I know you were being sarcastic is true. I know you were being sarcastic is true. I know you were being sarcastic and certainly not everything on the and certainly not everything on the and certainly not everything on the internet is informative, but um clusters internet is informative, but um clusters internet is informative, but um clusters and averages are are interesting to me. and averages are are interesting to me. and averages are are interesting to me. Uh there's a meme um which I find Uh there's a meme um which I find Uh there's a meme um which I find interesting uh visav this type of interesting uh visav this type of interesting uh visav this type of conversation um whereby I I think it was conversation um whereby I I think it was conversation um whereby I I think it was a uh a martial artist a MMA guy from a uh a martial artist a MMA guy from a uh a martial artist a MMA guy from from either Russia or or some eastern from either Russia or or some eastern from either Russia or or some eastern country excuse me um the the meme is um country excuse me um the the meme is um country excuse me um the the meme is um it goes something like send two three it goes something like send two three it goes something like send two three years Dagasan and forget a guy is years Dagasan and forget a guy is years Dagasan and forget a guy is talking about how he wants his kid to be talking about how he wants his kid to be talking about how he wants his kid to be good at wrestling and so he's going to good at wrestling and so he's going to good at wrestling and so he's going to send him to Dagistan where apparently send him to Dagistan where apparently send him to Dagistan where apparently the training is very intense. the training is very intense. the training is very intense. And um and the meme goes send two three And um and the meme goes send two three And um and the meme goes send two three years Dagasan and forget. And he said years Dagasan and forget. And he said years Dagasan and forget. And he said I'm going to send him there for a few uh I'm going to send him there for a few uh I'm going to send him there for a few uh weeks. And then uh and the guy goes no weeks. And then uh and the guy goes no weeks. And then uh and the guy goes no no no send two three years Dagistan and no no send two three years Dagistan and no no send two three years Dagistan and forget. And that meme um which is it's forget. And that meme um which is it's forget. And that meme um which is it's not a cartoon. It's a guy actually not a cartoon. It's a guy actually not a cartoon. It's a guy actually speaking in that context has been you speaking in that context has been you speaking in that context has been you can find extensive compilations of can find extensive compilations of can find extensive compilations of people showing um kind of effeminite people showing um kind of effeminite people showing um kind of effeminite boys boys boys >> um dancing doing kind of theater type >> um dancing doing kind of theater type >> um dancing doing kind of theater type activities and then then it transitions activities and then then it transitions activities and then then it transitions to send to their ears dagenia. The idea to send to their ears dagenia. The idea to send to their ears dagenia. The idea being returning to the beginning of our being returning to the beginning of our being returning to the beginning of our conversation that that there may be more conversation that that there may be more conversation that that there may be more plasticity early in life and that plasticity early in life and that plasticity early in life and that masculineization of behaviors masculineization of behaviors masculineization of behaviors stereotypically defined. Okay, want to stereotypically defined. Okay, want to stereotypically defined. Okay, want to be very clear. Um the idea being that be very clear. Um the idea being that be very clear. Um the idea being that that's very plastic early in life. Okay, that's very plastic early in life. Okay, that's very plastic early in life. Okay, I think this is interesting and I think this is interesting and I think this is interesting and important to observe. Um because important to observe. Um because important to observe. Um because when I was a kid, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, my mom, she tell still tells me the my mom, she tell still tells me the my mom, she tell still tells me the story, but she's told me this, verified story, but she's told me this, verified story, but she's told me this, verified this for many years. Uh we had a this for many years. Uh we had a this for many years. Uh we had a pediatrician um this was in Northern pediatrician um this was in Northern pediatrician um this was in Northern California. This is just a mile or two California. This is just a mile or two California. This is just a mile or two away from Stanford School of Medicine. away from Stanford School of Medicine. away from Stanford School of Medicine. Um and my pediatrician said to her, "Uh Um and my pediatrician said to her, "Uh Um and my pediatrician said to her, "Uh you you have a boy, um Andrew, and there you you have a boy, um Andrew, and there you you have a boy, um Andrew, and there are three very important things in are three very important things in are three very important things in raising him." And these were his words. raising him." And these were his words. raising him." And these were his words. One, don't let him ride motorcycles. One, don't let him ride motorcycles. One, don't let him ride motorcycles. >> I I agree. >> I I agree. >> I I agree. >> Two, don't let him drink soda. Too much >> Two, don't let him drink soda. Too much >> Two, don't let him drink soda. Too much sugar. Okay, fair. And he said, "Three, sugar. Okay, fair. And he said, "Three, sugar. Okay, fair. And he said, "Three, don't let him do theater." don't let him do theater." don't let him do theater." >> The implication being that boys who do >> The implication being that boys who do >> The implication being that boys who do theater have a higher probability of theater have a higher probability of theater have a higher probability of becoming gay. becoming gay. becoming gay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now, that was I was born in 1975. Okay. >> Now, that was I was born in 1975. Okay. >> Now, that was I was born in 1975. Okay. Um, Um, Um, >> he gave this advice to every parent of a >> he gave this advice to every parent of a >> he gave this advice to every parent of a male. Um, and I say that to kind of male. Um, and I say that to kind of male. Um, and I say that to kind of frame people's frame people's frame people's understanding of where we were versus understanding of where we were versus understanding of where we were versus where we are. And yet this meme is, I where we are. And yet this meme is, I where we are. And yet this meme is, I wouldn't say, rampant on the internet, wouldn't say, rampant on the internet, wouldn't say, rampant on the internet, but has a fair amount of support for it but has a fair amount of support for it but has a fair amount of support for it in the sense that I think there's still in the sense that I think there's still in the sense that I think there's still the general belief that certain the general belief that certain the general belief that certain activities can bias sexual orientation. activities can bias sexual orientation. activities can bias sexual orientation. And I just want to zoom out and And I just want to zoom out and And I just want to zoom out and ask acknowledge the idea that the brain ask acknowledge the idea that the brain ask acknowledge the idea that the brain is plastic to androgens. behaviors is plastic to androgens. behaviors is plastic to androgens. behaviors impact androgens. So, not trying to impact androgens. So, not trying to impact androgens. So, not trying to corral you into a given answer, but I corral you into a given answer, but I corral you into a given answer, but I think we've come a certain distance in think we've come a certain distance in think we've come a certain distance in this, but we we haven't really come that this, but we we haven't really come that this, but we we haven't really come that far. Well, and and of course, there's no far. Well, and and of course, there's no far. Well, and and of course, there's no doubt that the younger brain is more doubt that the younger brain is more doubt that the younger brain is more plastic. I mean, there's there's no way plastic. I mean, there's there's no way plastic. I mean, there's there's no way around that. But, um but you know, in around that. But, um but you know, in around that. But, um but you know, in terms of what one can do, there are terms of what one can do, there are terms of what one can do, there are limits. And and in terms of sexual limits. And and in terms of sexual limits. And and in terms of sexual orientation, I I can tell you people orientation, I I can tell you people orientation, I I can tell you people look really hard for any social look really hard for any social look really hard for any social coralates. You know, you you talked coralates. You know, you you talked coralates. You know, you you talked earlier about the the dad that's missing earlier about the the dad that's missing earlier about the the dad that's missing or or even Freud talked about the overly or or even Freud talked about the overly or or even Freud talked about the overly coddling mother and and the the coddling mother and and the the coddling mother and and the the dismissive father that that might make a dismissive father that that might make a dismissive father that that might make a boy more likely to be gay. And so people boy more likely to be gay. And so people boy more likely to be gay. And so people have looked for those sorts of have looked for those sorts of have looked for those sorts of coralists. The data just aren't there. I coralists. The data just aren't there. I coralists. The data just aren't there. I mean, it's really which which I think is mean, it's really which which I think is mean, it's really which which I think is interesting interesting interesting >> and kind of strange because you'd think >> and kind of strange because you'd think >> and kind of strange because you'd think that if if the social influence was that that if if the social influence was that that if if the social influence was that good that that that you'd find good that that that you'd find good that that that you'd find something. And so, uh, in terms of something. And so, uh, in terms of something. And so, uh, in terms of sexual orientation, I I I think the data sexual orientation, I I I think the data sexual orientation, I I I think the data are pretty weak. However, in terms of are pretty weak. However, in terms of are pretty weak. However, in terms of other expressions of male-like behavior, other expressions of male-like behavior, other expressions of male-like behavior, I clearly culture and family has a say, I clearly culture and family has a say, I clearly culture and family has a say, right? I mean, they clearly make an right? I mean, they clearly make an right? I mean, they clearly make an influence. I mean, in terms of what boys influence. I mean, in terms of what boys influence. I mean, in terms of what boys are supposed to do, I would say probably are supposed to do, I would say probably are supposed to do, I would say probably the only sex difference that that will the only sex difference that that will the only sex difference that that will persist and that almost certainly is due persist and that almost certainly is due persist and that almost certainly is due to biological factors like testosterone to biological factors like testosterone to biological factors like testosterone is you mentioned already rough and dumb is you mentioned already rough and dumb is you mentioned already rough and dumb play uh across so many species. You play uh across so many species. You play uh across so many species. You know, you put a bunch of males together know, you put a bunch of males together know, you put a bunch of males together and there'll be a lot more physical and there'll be a lot more physical and there'll be a lot more physical activity than if you put a bunch of activity than if you put a bunch of activity than if you put a bunch of females together. And an interesting females together. And an interesting females together. And an interesting thing happens if you put it in a mixed thing happens if you put it in a mixed thing happens if you put it in a mixed group and it doesn't matter whether it's group and it doesn't matter whether it's group and it doesn't matter whether it's monkeys or rats, the overall play will monkeys or rats, the overall play will monkeys or rats, the overall play will be intermediate. It's like the girls be intermediate. It's like the girls be intermediate. It's like the girls calm the boys down and the boys ramp the calm the boys down and the boys ramp the calm the boys down and the boys ramp the girls up a little bit. Um, and so that girls up a little bit. Um, and so that girls up a little bit. Um, and so that might be, you know, one that's that might be, you know, one that's that might be, you know, one that's that that's going to be pretty hard to corral that's going to be pretty hard to corral that's going to be pretty hard to corral with social influences, but virtually with social influences, but virtually with social influences, but virtually every other expression of masculine every other expression of masculine every other expression of masculine behavior. Um, of course, you know, behavior. Um, of course, you know, behavior. Um, of course, you know, culture and family make make a culture and family make make a culture and family make make a difference. Uh, I don't know if, you difference. Uh, I don't know if, you difference. Uh, I don't know if, you know, I'm going to suggest anyone send know, I'm going to suggest anyone send know, I'm going to suggest anyone send their child to their child to their child to >> Augustan 2 three years and forget. >> Augustan 2 three years and forget. >> Augustan 2 three years and forget. >> Yes. Thank you. I >> Yes. Thank you. I >> Yes. Thank you. I >> The original meme was the original >> The original meme was the original >> The original meme was the original statement. It was a real statement in a statement. It was a real statement in a statement. It was a real statement in a discussion was aimed at something else. discussion was aimed at something else. discussion was aimed at something else. It's been co-opted for this for this It's been co-opted for this for this It's been co-opted for this for this like this is the form of uh, you know, like this is the form of uh, you know, like this is the form of uh, you know, uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, >> intervention or whatever you want to >> intervention or whatever you want to >> intervention or whatever you want to call it. Um, okay. Let's set the call it. Um, okay. Let's set the call it. Um, okay. Let's set the internet aside and let's talk about a internet aside and let's talk about a internet aside and let's talk about a different upbringing for a moment which different upbringing for a moment which different upbringing for a moment which is yours. is yours. is yours. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Um, as a >> Um, as a >> Um, as a >> scientist. Um, you have a somewhat >> scientist. Um, you have a somewhat >> scientist. Um, you have a somewhat unusual trajectory into science. So, uh, unusual trajectory into science. So, uh, unusual trajectory into science. So, uh, where were you born? where were you born? where were you born? >> Uh, in the Ozarks in Springfield, >> Uh, in the Ozarks in Springfield, >> Uh, in the Ozarks in Springfield, Missouri. Missouri. Missouri. >> Oh, I was I was about to say where are >> Oh, I was I was about to say where are >> Oh, I was I was about to say where are the Ozarks? I know where they are, but the Ozarks? I know where they are, but the Ozarks? I know where they are, but to orient our international audience, to orient our international audience, to orient our international audience, >> southern Missouri and northern Arkansas. >> southern Missouri and northern Arkansas. >> southern Missouri and northern Arkansas. So it's uh it's famous because it's hill So it's uh it's famous because it's hill So it's uh it's famous because it's hill country and so very hilly, very much country and so very hilly, very much country and so very hilly, very much like the Appalachians both in terrain like the Appalachians both in terrain like the Appalachians both in terrain and in culture actually. Uh so no, I was and in culture actually. Uh so no, I was and in culture actually. Uh so no, I was born in the Ozarks in a in a born in the Ozarks in a in a born in the Ozarks in a in a working-class family. No one in my working-class family. No one in my working-class family. No one in my family had ever um well no one in my family had ever um well no one in my family had ever um well no one in my mother's generation had finished high mother's generation had finished high mother's generation had finished high school um much less college. And um you school um much less college. And um you school um much less college. And um you know I was always um a a little bit know I was always um a a little bit know I was always um a a little bit different u because I was so much more different u because I was so much more different u because I was so much more interested in reading than all my interested in reading than all my interested in reading than all my cousins say that all they remember about cousins say that all they remember about cousins say that all they remember about me when we were growing up is I always me when we were growing up is I always me when we were growing up is I always had my nose in a book. Right? That that had my nose in a book. Right? That that had my nose in a book. Right? That that that phrase. Um so and I as I get and I that phrase. Um so and I as I get and I that phrase. Um so and I as I get and I I I didn't choose that. I didn't choose I I didn't choose that. I didn't choose I I didn't choose that. I didn't choose to like reading but I always did. Uh, to like reading but I always did. Uh, to like reading but I always did. Uh, and I always loved school and uh, so uh, and I always loved school and uh, so uh, and I always loved school and uh, so uh, and and I will say I had a great family and and I will say I had a great family and and I will say I had a great family that was incredibly supportive of me that was incredibly supportive of me that was incredibly supportive of me doing whatever I wanted to, right? That doing whatever I wanted to, right? That doing whatever I wanted to, right? That that would that would be fine. Uh, and that would that would be fine. Uh, and that would that would be fine. Uh, and as I look back, I realize and I predict as I look back, I realize and I predict as I look back, I realize and I predict you'll find this too. The older I get, you'll find this too. The older I get, you'll find this too. The older I get, the more I realize how much luck matters the more I realize how much luck matters the more I realize how much luck matters and how how many very fortunate things and how how many very fortunate things and how how many very fortunate things happen to me. Right? So, uh, the first happen to me. Right? So, uh, the first happen to me. Right? So, uh, the first question is, uh, I end up going to Yale question is, uh, I end up going to Yale question is, uh, I end up going to Yale College. What, uh, working-class College. What, uh, working-class College. What, uh, working-class working class? So, so my folks were working class? So, so my folks were working class? So, so my folks were bluecollar workers. I mean, for bluecollar workers. I mean, for bluecollar workers. I mean, for complicated reasons, I was raised by my complicated reasons, I was raised by my complicated reasons, I was raised by my grandparents. He was a construction grandparents. He was a construction grandparents. He was a construction worker and she she worked in a food worker and she she worked in a food worker and she she worked in a food processing plant. And, um, and so processing plant. And, um, and so processing plant. And, um, and so they once told me that maybe altogether they once told me that maybe altogether they once told me that maybe altogether they they they went to third grade, they they they went to third grade, they they they went to third grade, right? Got that far. But uh they were right? Got that far. But uh they were right? Got that far. But uh they were clearly smart and great people and they clearly smart and great people and they clearly smart and great people and they were very supportive and uh and so uh were very supportive and uh and so uh were very supportive and uh and so uh here's where here's an incredibly lucky here's where here's an incredibly lucky here's where here's an incredibly lucky episode that happened to me. So when I episode that happened to me. So when I episode that happened to me. So when I was a junior in high school, I go to the was a junior in high school, I go to the was a junior in high school, I go to the Central High School library and uh I I Central High School library and uh I I Central High School library and uh I I volunteered there after work to put away volunteered there after work to put away volunteered there after work to put away books and the librarian tells me, "Oh, books and the librarian tells me, "Oh, books and the librarian tells me, "Oh, there's this book you might be there's this book you might be there's this book you might be interested in." And she shows me this interested in." And she shows me this interested in." And she shows me this really thick paperback really thick paperback really thick paperback made out by the College Board. So this made out by the College Board. So this made out by the College Board. So this was the first year that the college was the first year that the college was the first year that the college board had put together this book showing board had put together this book showing board had put together this book showing all the colleges in the United States all the colleges in the United States all the colleges in the United States with little bls about them. And she with little bls about them. And she with little bls about them. And she said, "You might want to look at that." said, "You might want to look at that." said, "You might want to look at that." And I open it up and I see that for all And I open it up and I see that for all And I open it up and I see that for all the colleges there's a paragraph about the colleges there's a paragraph about the colleges there's a paragraph about financial aid. So I read that entire financial aid. So I read that entire financial aid. So I read that entire book from front to back except I only book from front to back except I only book from front to back except I only read the financial aid part because at read the financial aid part because at read the financial aid part because at the time my my grandfather passed away the time my my grandfather passed away the time my my grandfather passed away and so my grandmother and I our only and so my grandmother and I our only and so my grandmother and I our only income was social security, right? that income was social security, right? that income was social security, right? that was that was that was our livelihood. was that was that was our livelihood. was that was that was our livelihood. And um and so I read financial aid And um and so I read financial aid And um and so I read financial aid everyone and I get to the end there in everyone and I get to the end there in everyone and I get to the end there in this first edition they were in this first edition they were in this first edition they were in alphabetical order which makes no sense alphabetical order which makes no sense alphabetical order which makes no sense but that's how it was. I get to the end but that's how it was. I get to the end but that's how it was. I get to the end and the one for Yale College is like one and the one for Yale College is like one and the one for Yale College is like one of the shortest of the shortest of the shortest listings there and it says basically listings there and it says basically listings there and it says basically we're committed to making sure everyone we're committed to making sure everyone we're committed to making sure everyone admitted will get the financial aid they admitted will get the financial aid they admitted will get the financial aid they need. need. need. This is me. This is what this is where I This is me. This is what this is where I This is me. This is what this is where I >> You had to read the whole book just to >> You had to read the whole book just to >> You had to read the whole book just to get there. get there. get there. >> Well, I the next entry was Yeshiva, >> Well, I the next entry was Yeshiva, >> Well, I the next entry was Yeshiva, which I thought, well, that's a strange which I thought, well, that's a strange which I thought, well, that's a strange name, but if if they'd had that name, but if if they'd had that name, but if if they'd had that paragraph, I believe me, I would have paragraph, I believe me, I would have paragraph, I believe me, I would have been applying there, uh, which would been applying there, uh, which would been applying there, uh, which would have been fun, too. And so I so I go to have been fun, too. And so I so I go to have been fun, too. And so I so I go to my counselor and I say, well, and I had my counselor and I say, well, and I had my counselor and I say, well, and I had never heard of Yale. I mean, I associate never heard of Yale. I mean, I associate never heard of Yale. I mean, I associate it with locks, right? I'd heard of it with locks, right? I'd heard of it with locks, right? I'd heard of Harvard because of Kennedy, but you Harvard because of Kennedy, but you Harvard because of Kennedy, but you know, nobody in my family talked. I go know, nobody in my family talked. I go know, nobody in my family talked. I go to my counselor, her name was Gene to my counselor, her name was Gene to my counselor, her name was Gene Walker, and and and she says, "That's an Walker, and and and she says, "That's an Walker, and and and she says, "That's an Ivy League school. Ivy League school. Ivy League school. Huh? What does that mean? And she she Huh? What does that mean? And she she Huh? What does that mean? And she she she tells me and she and to her credit, she tells me and she and to her credit, she tells me and she and to her credit, she doesn't say, "That's stupid. You're she doesn't say, "That's stupid. You're she doesn't say, "That's stupid. You're never, you know, why why would you be never, you know, why why would you be never, you know, why why would you be doing that?" She says, "You know what? doing that?" She says, "You know what? doing that?" She says, "You know what? You should apply for early admissions You should apply for early admissions You should apply for early admissions this year." Early admission. I know. this year." Early admission. I know. this year." Early admission. I know. Okay. So, I apply for early admission. I Okay. So, I apply for early admission. I Okay. So, I apply for early admission. I don't get it. So, okay. But I'll try don't get it. So, okay. But I'll try don't get it. So, okay. But I'll try again next year because that paragraphs again next year because that paragraphs again next year because that paragraphs really got it under my skin. You This is really got it under my skin. You This is really got it under my skin. You This is what I need. So, pie the next year. And what I need. So, pie the next year. And what I need. So, pie the next year. And this time they ask me for an interview. this time they ask me for an interview. this time they ask me for an interview. And I'm I'm to I'm to have an interview And I'm I'm to I'm to have an interview And I'm I'm to I'm to have an interview with Dr. John Ferguson. I'm to call up with Dr. John Ferguson. I'm to call up with Dr. John Ferguson. I'm to call up his office and arrange for an interview. his office and arrange for an interview. his office and arrange for an interview. And I'm sitting in French class with my And I'm sitting in French class with my And I'm sitting in French class with my friend Dale. And I'm telling him, I'm friend Dale. And I'm telling him, I'm friend Dale. And I'm telling him, I'm supposed to make an appointment with Dr. supposed to make an appointment with Dr. supposed to make an appointment with Dr. John Ferguson. And the French teacher John Ferguson. And the French teacher John Ferguson. And the French teacher who was one of my letter writers, Mrs. who was one of my letter writers, Mrs. who was one of my letter writers, Mrs. Fiser. She overhears this. And she says, Fiser. She overhears this. And she says, Fiser. She overhears this. And she says, "What on earth? Why would you go see "What on earth? Why would you go see "What on earth? Why would you go see John Dr. John Ferguson?" Because she John Dr. John Ferguson?" Because she John Dr. John Ferguson?" Because she knew, but I didn't. He was an OBGYn. knew, but I didn't. He was an OBGYn. knew, but I didn't. He was an OBGYn. She and I, you know, sort of Sovoce. She and I, you know, sort of Sovoce. She and I, you know, sort of Sovoce. Well, you know, this Oh, well, I know Well, you know, this Oh, well, I know Well, you know, this Oh, well, I know John. He's an old family friend. I used John. He's an old family friend. I used John. He's an old family friend. I used to babysit him and, you know, well, I'll to babysit him and, you know, well, I'll to babysit him and, you know, well, I'll be calling him. So, I'm sure I don't be calling him. So, I'm sure I don't be calling him. So, I'm sure I don't remember the interview with the man, remember the interview with the man, remember the interview with the man, right? I mean, I don't remember a thing right? I mean, I don't remember a thing right? I mean, I don't remember a thing about, but I'm sure he told them I was, about, but I'm sure he told them I was, about, but I'm sure he told them I was, you know, the greatest thing on earth you know, the greatest thing on earth you know, the greatest thing on earth because I mean, I'm sure he gave me a because I mean, I'm sure he gave me a because I mean, I'm sure he gave me a strong a recommendation as he possibly strong a recommendation as he possibly strong a recommendation as he possibly could. And and so I got in and they and could. And and so I got in and they and could. And and so I got in and they and it they were true to their word. They it they were true to their word. They it they were true to their word. They sent me, you know, this send me this sent me, you know, this send me this sent me, you know, this send me this thick letter with all these um all this thick letter with all these um all this thick letter with all these um all this financial aid and so uh and they didn't financial aid and so uh and they didn't financial aid and so uh and they didn't expect my family to contribute anything, expect my family to contribute anything, expect my family to contribute anything, right? So it was it worked out and uh right? So it was it worked out and uh right? So it was it worked out and uh and and you know and what hap I have and and you know and what hap I have and and you know and what hap I have mixed feelings about Yale because I mixed feelings about Yale because I mixed feelings about Yale because I benefited so much. I mean, I and I I'll benefited so much. I mean, I and I I'll benefited so much. I mean, I and I I'll credit myself with this. I I went with credit myself with this. I I went with credit myself with this. I I went with the right attitude, right? Which is the right attitude, right? Which is the right attitude, right? Which is they've made a mistake, right? Mrs. they've made a mistake, right? Mrs. they've made a mistake, right? Mrs. Fischer got me in and I'm I'm not going Fischer got me in and I'm I'm not going Fischer got me in and I'm I'm not going to screw this up. Uh and and indeed, you to screw this up. Uh and and indeed, you to screw this up. Uh and and indeed, you know, I I you know, Andy, I want to know know, I I you know, Andy, I want to know know, I I you know, Andy, I want to know everything. I I wanted to know about art everything. I I wanted to know about art everything. I I wanted to know about art and literature and all the sciences. cuz and literature and all the sciences. cuz and literature and all the sciences. cuz it was I mean I I was hungry and I so it was I mean I I was hungry and I so it was I mean I I was hungry and I so and I went with the attitude is man all and I went with the attitude is man all and I went with the attitude is man all these people are smarter than I am and these people are smarter than I am and these people are smarter than I am and so I'm just going to soak it up and at so I'm just going to soak it up and at so I'm just going to soak it up and at least half of what I learned at Yale I least half of what I learned at Yale I least half of what I learned at Yale I learned from other students right and learned from other students right and learned from other students right and the the first night I'm on campus you the the first night I'm on campus you the the first night I'm on campus you can you can see what happened so first can you can see what happened so first can you can see what happened so first of all I drive of all I drive of all I drive from Springfield to New Haven it's a from Springfield to New Haven it's a from Springfield to New Haven it's a long drive but you know that's how we go long drive but you know that's how we go long drive but you know that's how we go places we we drive I get to New Haven places we we drive I get to New Haven places we we drive I get to New Haven it's where am I going to park this car. it's where am I going to park this car. it's where am I going to park this car. I can't. I I just thought, of course, I can't. I I just thought, of course, I can't. I I just thought, of course, there'd be, you know, parking lots and there'd be, you know, parking lots and there'd be, you know, parking lots and No. Yeah. And so, I find a place in No. Yeah. And so, I find a place in No. Yeah. And so, I find a place in downtown, a garage, and oh my god, this downtown, a garage, and oh my god, this downtown, a garage, and oh my god, this is going to cost me so much money to is going to cost me so much money to is going to cost me so much money to keep the car here. I got to take it back keep the car here. I got to take it back keep the car here. I got to take it back as soon as I can. And I go up to my my as soon as I can. And I go up to my my as soon as I can. And I go up to my my dorm room in the in the old campus, and dorm room in the in the old campus, and dorm room in the in the old campus, and I meet my three roommates, and I know I meet my three roommates, and I know I meet my three roommates, and I know how to be sociable. So, where'd you go how to be sociable. So, where'd you go how to be sociable. So, where'd you go to high school? And two of them tell me to high school? And two of them tell me to high school? And two of them tell me they went to prep school. they went to prep school. they went to prep school. Huh? What's a prep school? They explain Huh? What's a prep school? They explain Huh? What's a prep school? They explain that to him and then they start talking that to him and then they start talking that to him and then they start talking about Phillips Andover versus Phillips about Phillips Andover versus Phillips about Phillips Andover versus Phillips Exit. I you know what and and and the Exit. I you know what and and and the Exit. I you know what and and and the third guy I I I won't mention the name third guy I I I won't mention the name third guy I I I won't mention the name but but his last name is one of you know but but his last name is one of you know but but his last name is one of you know generational wealth that every American generational wealth that every American generational wealth that every American has heard, right? So it's like okay I'm has heard, right? So it's like okay I'm has heard, right? So it's like okay I'm I'm not in the Ozarks anymore. And then I'm not in the Ozarks anymore. And then I'm not in the Ozarks anymore. And then they start you know smoking dope they start you know smoking dope they start you know smoking dope and I've never seen that before, right? and I've never seen that before, right? and I've never seen that before, right? I've never I've never I've never been I've never I've never I've never been I've never I've never I've never been around people smoking marijuana before. around people smoking marijuana before. around people smoking marijuana before. And they assure me, oh, the campus cops, And they assure me, oh, the campus cops, And they assure me, oh, the campus cops, they'll look the other way. And I'm they'll look the other way. And I'm they'll look the other way. And I'm thinking, what? And and that very summer thinking, what? And and that very summer thinking, what? And and that very summer in Green County, where I'm from, a a in Green County, where I'm from, a a in Green County, where I'm from, a a judge had sentenced a young man for judge had sentenced a young man for judge had sentenced a young man for possession of mariju life sentence. possession of mariju life sentence. possession of mariju life sentence. >> Whoa. Possession of of weed. >> Whoa. Possession of of weed. >> Whoa. Possession of of weed. >> This is this is 1972 and this is the >> This is this is 1972 and this is the >> This is this is 1972 and this is the Ozarks, right? Not not the same sort of Ozarks, right? Not not the same sort of Ozarks, right? Not not the same sort of place. So, I'm thinking, well, maybe the place. So, I'm thinking, well, maybe the place. So, I'm thinking, well, maybe the campus cops would overlook you smoking campus cops would overlook you smoking campus cops would overlook you smoking note, but I'm not going to give Yale any note, but I'm not going to give Yale any note, but I'm not going to give Yale any excuse to send me home. It was like a excuse to send me home. It was like a excuse to send me home. It was like a kid in a candy shop. And because I kid in a candy shop. And because I kid in a candy shop. And because I regarded everyone there as they regarded everyone there as they regarded everyone there as they certainly knew more than I did, all of certainly knew more than I did, all of certainly knew more than I did, all of them. Um, and and they were probably them. Um, and and they were probably them. Um, and and they were probably smarter than I, it was like I I never smarter than I, it was like I I never smarter than I, it was like I I never felt the pressure to be the smartest felt the pressure to be the smartest felt the pressure to be the smartest person in the room. Okay, I'm not I person in the room. Okay, I'm not I person in the room. Okay, I'm not I don't care. I'm And I I took as many don't care. I'm And I I took as many don't care. I'm And I I took as many classes as I could. Uh, and you know, I classes as I could. Uh, and you know, I classes as I could. Uh, and you know, I I I always wanted to take six. You were I I always wanted to take six. You were I I always wanted to take six. You were supposed to take no more than five supposed to take no more than five supposed to take no more than five courses courses courses per term. And so I I I would always want per term. And so I I I would always want per term. And so I I I would always want to take six and the dean wouldn't let to take six and the dean wouldn't let to take six and the dean wouldn't let me. So I'd take five courses in in a me. So I'd take five courses in in a me. So I'd take five courses in in a lab, which is like half a course, etc. lab, which is like half a course, etc. lab, which is like half a course, etc. Um, and I'm just, you know, I'm not Um, and I'm just, you know, I'm not Um, and I'm just, you know, I'm not getting A's and everything, but I don't getting A's and everything, but I don't getting A's and everything, but I don't care, right? I didn't So, uh, I'm care, right? I didn't So, uh, I'm care, right? I didn't So, uh, I'm having a great time. Uh, and that's when having a great time. Uh, and that's when having a great time. Uh, and that's when I learned about neuroscience. So, first I learned about neuroscience. So, first I learned about neuroscience. So, first someone told me, "Oh, look at this someone told me, "Oh, look at this someone told me, "Oh, look at this course about comparative psychology." course about comparative psychology." course about comparative psychology." What's comparative psychology? It means What's comparative psychology? It means What's comparative psychology? It means comparing across species. And oh, I comparing across species. And oh, I comparing across species. And oh, I didn't know psychologists studied animal didn't know psychologists studied animal didn't know psychologists studied animal behavior. And then pretty soon I I took behavior. And then pretty soon I I took behavior. And then pretty soon I I took a class Linda Uphouse taught of a class Linda Uphouse taught of a class Linda Uphouse taught of physiological psychologist taught physiological psychologist taught physiological psychologist taught neuroscience. And I'm hooked, right? I neuroscience. And I'm hooked, right? I neuroscience. And I'm hooked, right? I mean, this is I love this stuff. I mean, mean, this is I love this stuff. I mean, mean, this is I love this stuff. I mean, it's been a an amazing arc to go from it's been a an amazing arc to go from it's been a an amazing arc to go from the Ozarks to Yale. I love that when you the Ozarks to Yale. I love that when you the Ozarks to Yale. I love that when you found yourself in an environment that found yourself in an environment that found yourself in an environment that offered a lot of opportunity that you offered a lot of opportunity that you offered a lot of opportunity that you seized that opportunity. I think um many seized that opportunity. I think um many seized that opportunity. I think um many people wouldn't have done the same had people wouldn't have done the same had people wouldn't have done the same had they not had your background. But maybe they not had your background. But maybe they not had your background. But maybe even if they had, I mean, I think that even if they had, I mean, I think that even if they had, I mean, I think that when you find yourself in a place where when you find yourself in a place where when you find yourself in a place where there's tons to learn and you throw there's tons to learn and you throw there's tons to learn and you throw yourself into that, only good things can yourself into that, only good things can yourself into that, only good things can come of that. I mean, you mentioned come of that. I mean, you mentioned come of that. I mean, you mentioned luck, but I think, you know, luck is I luck, but I think, you know, luck is I luck, but I think, you know, luck is I wouldn't say evenly distributed, but it wouldn't say evenly distributed, but it wouldn't say evenly distributed, but it but it has a a a habit of of finding the but it has a a a habit of of finding the but it has a a a habit of of finding the prepared, as they say, right? I prepared, as they say, right? I prepared, as they say, right? I obviously didn't make that statement. obviously didn't make that statement. obviously didn't make that statement. So, and I and I love this theme of of So, and I and I love this theme of of So, and I and I love this theme of of exploration. I mean, we, exploration. I mean, we, exploration. I mean, we, >> you know, I think of you as >> you know, I think of you as >> you know, I think of you as >> the hormones and sex behavior, hormones >> the hormones and sex behavior, hormones >> the hormones and sex behavior, hormones and uh sexual orientation and uh sexual orientation and uh sexual orientation scientist, right? But I also remember, scientist, right? But I also remember, scientist, right? But I also remember, you know, it was 25 years ago that um you know, it was 25 years ago that um you know, it was 25 years ago that um you always walked very quickly and you you always walked very quickly and you you always walked very quickly and you always had an idea that you were excited always had an idea that you were excited always had an idea that you were excited about whenever I'd run into you. So I about whenever I'd run into you. So I about whenever I'd run into you. So I want to say you you've really inspired want to say you you've really inspired want to say you you've really inspired my career to go after things that my career to go after things that my career to go after things that interested me and and just really follow interested me and and just really follow interested me and and just really follow those trails and also when when it those trails and also when when it those trails and also when when it wasn't so clear what to do um to pick wasn't so clear what to do um to pick wasn't so clear what to do um to pick the thing that at least was most the thing that at least was most the thing that at least was most exciting then and not worry about where exciting then and not worry about where exciting then and not worry about where that was going to lead next. you strike that was going to lead next. you strike that was going to lead next. you strike me as one of the least careerest people me as one of the least careerest people me as one of the least careerest people I've ever met. Like um and I I also I've ever met. Like um and I I also I've ever met. Like um and I I also acknowledge you've had a spectacular acknowledge you've had a spectacular acknowledge you've had a spectacular career and it's still going. I mean, career and it's still going. I mean, career and it's still going. I mean, your name is synonymous with hormones your name is synonymous with hormones your name is synonymous with hormones and behavior and hormones and sex and behavior and hormones and sex and behavior and hormones and sex behavior. You're being humble now, but behavior. You're being humble now, but behavior. You're being humble now, but it's it's absolutely true. It didn't it's it's absolutely true. It didn't it's it's absolutely true. It didn't hurt that your last name was breed loved hurt that your last name was breed loved hurt that your last name was breed loved if I'm honest, but uh let's face it, if I'm honest, but uh let's face it, if I'm honest, but uh let's face it, that wasn't going to confer you like a that wasn't going to confer you like a that wasn't going to confer you like a real lasting advantage. So, clearly real lasting advantage. So, clearly real lasting advantage. So, clearly you've put in the work. I also really you've put in the work. I also really you've put in the work. I also really want to thank you for coming here today want to thank you for coming here today want to thank you for coming here today and and teaching people what's known and and teaching people what's known and and teaching people what's known about these topics. And these are not about these topics. And these are not about these topics. And these are not easy topics to parse. The languaging has easy topics to parse. The languaging has easy topics to parse. The languaging has to be very specific. The reason it has to be very specific. The reason it has to be very specific. The reason it has to be specific is in one part political to be specific is in one part political to be specific is in one part political sort of, but it's really about making sort of, but it's really about making sort of, but it's really about making sure that people understand what's true, sure that people understand what's true, sure that people understand what's true, what's not true, and what's not known what's not true, and what's not known what's not true, and what's not known yet so that they can form their own yet so that they can form their own yet so that they can form their own ideas. And and I really admire the way ideas. And and I really admire the way ideas. And and I really admire the way that you're able to do that. And I also that you're able to do that. And I also that you're able to do that. And I also learned a ton today. So, you know, I'm learned a ton today. So, you know, I'm learned a ton today. So, you know, I'm struck by a number of different things struck by a number of different things struck by a number of different things in this model of how we become who we in this model of how we become who we in this model of how we become who we are. And as someone who's raised kids are. And as someone who's raised kids are. And as someone who's raised kids successfully and um now has grandkids um successfully and um now has grandkids um successfully and um now has grandkids um I knew your kids, so that's a trip to I knew your kids, so that's a trip to I knew your kids, so that's a trip to me. I haven't seen them in years, but me. I haven't seen them in years, but me. I haven't seen them in years, but they have kids. I I think um maybe you they have kids. I I think um maybe you they have kids. I I think um maybe you would just comment briefly on, you know, would just comment briefly on, you know, would just comment briefly on, you know, >> did you observe early sex differences in >> did you observe early sex differences in >> did you observe early sex differences in terms of behavior? Did was it striking? terms of behavior? Did was it striking? terms of behavior? Did was it striking? Did you do experiments on your kids or Did you do experiments on your kids or Did you do experiments on your kids or did you opt not to? did you opt not to? did you opt not to? >> It was pretty amazing really now that >> It was pretty amazing really now that >> It was pretty amazing really now that you mentioned it because um Steve you mentioned it because um Steve you mentioned it because um Steve Glickman once told me that there was Glickman once told me that there was Glickman once told me that there was someone did a study where you ask people someone did a study where you ask people someone did a study where you ask people how much do you attribute personality to how much do you attribute personality to how much do you attribute personality to nature and how much to nurture. and and nature and how much to nurture. and and nature and how much to nurture. and and he said the only correlation that came he said the only correlation that came he said the only correlation that came out of it was the more kids people had, out of it was the more kids people had, out of it was the more kids people had, the more they thought nature was the more they thought nature was the more they thought nature was important for um for determining and and important for um for determining and and important for um for determining and and you know that because if you have more you know that because if you have more you know that because if you have more than one kid, they're not the same. And than one kid, they're not the same. And than one kid, they're not the same. And so in in in terms of sex differences, so in in in terms of sex differences, so in in in terms of sex differences, I'll tell you. So I have one daughter, I'll tell you. So I have one daughter, I'll tell you. So I have one daughter, Tessa, and you know, she had two older Tessa, and you know, she had two older Tessa, and you know, she had two older brothers, etc. And you know, you know, brothers, etc. And you know, you know, brothers, etc. And you know, you know, my partner Cindy Jordan, she my partner Cindy Jordan, she my partner Cindy Jordan, she neuroscientist too. And um she almost neuroscientist too. And um she almost neuroscientist too. And um she almost never wore dresses, right? That that never wore dresses, right? That that never wore dresses, right? That that would be our skirt that was just, you would be our skirt that was just, you would be our skirt that was just, you know, not useful around the lab. And know, not useful around the lab. And know, not useful around the lab. And there was a period there where every day there was a period there where every day there was a period there where every day with Tessa, it was it was a struggle if with Tessa, it was it was a struggle if with Tessa, it was it was a struggle if we didn't put her in a dress, right? she we didn't put her in a dress, right? she we didn't put her in a dress, right? she really wanted to wear. And really wanted to wear. And really wanted to wear. And as soon as she could walk, one of the as soon as she could walk, one of the as soon as she could walk, one of the things she liked to do was to put on her things she liked to do was to put on her things she liked to do was to put on her mother's various shoes, right, and walk mother's various shoes, right, and walk mother's various shoes, right, and walk around in them, cute, etc. I mean, she around in them, cute, etc. I mean, she around in them, cute, etc. I mean, she was so different from the beginning. was so different from the beginning. was so different from the beginning. Now, I'm not a biological determinist. I Now, I'm not a biological determinist. I Now, I'm not a biological determinist. I don't think, you know, I don't think don't think, you know, I don't think don't think, you know, I don't think biology is everything. I don't think, biology is everything. I don't think, biology is everything. I don't think, you know, prenatal things are you know, prenatal things are you know, prenatal things are everything. There's no there's no one everything. There's no there's no one everything. There's no there's no one cause of any human behavior. But it it cause of any human behavior. But it it cause of any human behavior. But it it really struck me. Oh, and and one of my really struck me. Oh, and and one of my really struck me. Oh, and and one of my boys could make a gun out of anything, boys could make a gun out of anything, boys could make a gun out of anything, right? We you know, this is an era where right? We you know, this is an era where right? We you know, this is an era where we're trying not to we're trying not to we're trying not to >> even growing up in Berkeley. >> even growing up in Berkeley. >> even growing up in Berkeley. >> Oh my. Well, especially in Berkeley >> Oh my. Well, especially in Berkeley >> Oh my. Well, especially in Berkeley because he wasn't going to find a toy because he wasn't going to find a toy because he wasn't going to find a toy gun, but by by golly, he could make one. gun, but by by golly, he could make one. gun, but by by golly, he could make one. Uh and and he was also the the the kid Uh and and he was also the the the kid Uh and and he was also the the the kid that that you know loved any toy with that that you know loved any toy with that that you know loved any toy with wheels on it, right? So it was and and wheels on it, right? So it was and and wheels on it, right? So it was and and you know, even among monkeys, right? you know, even among monkeys, right? you know, even among monkeys, right? Melissa Hines showed it first. Even Melissa Hines showed it first. Even Melissa Hines showed it first. Even among monkeys, if you put in wheeled among monkeys, if you put in wheeled among monkeys, if you put in wheeled toys, it's the male monkeys that are toys, it's the male monkeys that are toys, it's the male monkeys that are much more interested in that than the much more interested in that than the much more interested in that than the females. And the female monkeys are much females. And the female monkeys are much females. And the female monkeys are much more interested in in the dolls, etc. more interested in in the dolls, etc. more interested in in the dolls, etc. Um, so yeah, you you have more than one Um, so yeah, you you have more than one Um, so yeah, you you have more than one kid. I I predict you're going to be kid. I I predict you're going to be kid. I I predict you're going to be amazed about how, you know, how amazed about how, you know, how amazed about how, you know, how different the kids are, even though different the kids are, even though different the kids are, even though you're the same family, right? They you're the same family, right? They you're the same family, right? They don't all come out the same. Once again, don't all come out the same. Once again, don't all come out the same. Once again, you've been a huge inspiration to me you've been a huge inspiration to me you've been a huge inspiration to me over the years, and I know that the over the years, and I know that the over the years, and I know that the listeners are greatly appreciative of listeners are greatly appreciative of listeners are greatly appreciative of everything you've taught, and we got to everything you've taught, and we got to everything you've taught, and we got to get you back here. Oh, also, you're get you back here. Oh, also, you're get you back here. Oh, also, you're writing a book about the biology of writing a book about the biology of writing a book about the biology of sexual orientation. I didn't know this. sexual orientation. I didn't know this. sexual orientation. I didn't know this. We don't do we actually don't really do We don't do we actually don't really do We don't do we actually don't really do book promos. That's not really the our book promos. That's not really the our book promos. That's not really the our podcast, but when when can we expect podcast, but when when can we expect podcast, but when when can we expect that book to hit the shelves? that book to hit the shelves? that book to hit the shelves? >> Oh, you put me in such a tough spot. So, >> Oh, you put me in such a tough spot. So, >> Oh, you put me in such a tough spot. So, I I'm I'm struggling with it. I' I've I I'm I'm struggling with it. I' I've I I'm I'm struggling with it. I' I've written six chapters, and I'm I'm written six chapters, and I'm I'm written six chapters, and I'm I'm intending there be 11. My goal is can I intending there be 11. My goal is can I intending there be 11. My goal is can I get this first draft done by this fall get this first draft done by this fall get this first draft done by this fall and then there, you know, there's and then there, you know, there's and then there, you know, there's reviewing and things like that that'll reviewing and things like that that'll reviewing and things like that that'll happen. So, I do, you know, knock on happen. So, I do, you know, knock on happen. So, I do, you know, knock on wood. I'm I'm I'm really hoping I'm wood. I'm I'm I'm really hoping I'm wood. I'm I'm I'm really hoping I'm going to finish this book and and if so, going to finish this book and and if so, going to finish this book and and if so, uh well, you know, I expect you since uh well, you know, I expect you since uh well, you know, I expect you since you owe me so much, I expect you to buy you owe me so much, I expect you to buy you owe me so much, I expect you to buy a copy. a copy. a copy. >> Absolutely. I'll buy a copy. I'll read >> Absolutely. I'll buy a copy. I'll read >> Absolutely. I'll buy a copy. I'll read it and I'll let the world know what I it and I'll let the world know what I it and I'll let the world know what I think about it. Dr. Mark Breedlove, think about it. Dr. Mark Breedlove, think about it. Dr. Mark Breedlove, thanks for coming here today. Come back thanks for coming here today. Come back thanks for coming here today. Come back again. again. again. >> It was a pleasure. I've had a great >> It was a pleasure. I've had a great >> It was a pleasure. I've had a great time. time. time. >> Thank you. Thank you for joining me for >> Thank you. Thank you for joining me for >> Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark today's discussion with Dr. Mark today's discussion with Dr. Mark Breedlove. To learn more about his work, Breedlove. To learn more about his work, Breedlove. To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note please see the links in the show note please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from andor captions. If you're learning from andor captions. If you're learning from andor enjoying this podcast, please subscribe enjoying this podcast, please subscribe enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a to our YouTube channel. That's a to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way to support us. In terrific zerocost way to support us. In terrific zerocost way to support us. 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It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating It's entitled Protocols, an operating It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a manual for the human body. This is a manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more than 5 years, and that's based on more than 5 years, and that's based on more than 5 years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to everything from sleep to exercise to everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to stress control protocols related to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various There you can find links to various There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. 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Thank not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark today's discussion with Dr. Mark today's discussion with Dr. Mark Breedlove. And last, but certainly not Breedlove. And last, but certainly not Breedlove. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in least, thank you for your interest in least, thank you for your interest in science.