How Genes Shape Your Risk Taking & Morals | Dr. Kathryn Paige Harden

There is a reward that we can see in the There is a reward that we can see in the brains of people when they see someone brains of people when they see someone brains of people when they see someone suffer if that person is first portrayed suffer if that person is first portrayed suffer if that person is first portrayed as a wrongdoer. as a wrongdoer. as a wrongdoer. >> So ordinarily if you see someone be >> So ordinarily if you see someone be >> So ordinarily if you see someone be shocked you have interior insula. It's shocked you have interior insula. It's shocked you have interior insula. It's like you're being shocked too. Unless like you're being shocked too. Unless like you're being shocked too. Unless that person is first portrayed as that person is first portrayed as that person is first portrayed as violating some moral or social norm, in violating some moral or social norm, in violating some moral or social norm, in which case dopamine, you get a reward which case dopamine, you get a reward which case dopamine, you get a reward out of seeing that person punished. I out of seeing that person punished. I out of seeing that person punished. I think that it is a lust just as much as think that it is a lust just as much as think that it is a lust just as much as lust for substances or lust for sexual lust for substances or lust for sexual lust for substances or lust for sexual partners. It is a desire people want to partners. It is a desire people want to partners. It is a desire people want to see people punished. see people punished. see people punished. >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science [music] and where we discuss science [music] and where we discuss science [music] and science-based tools for everyday life. science-based tools for everyday life. science-based tools for everyday life. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. She today is Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. She today is Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. She is a psychologist and geneticist and a is a psychologist and geneticist and a is a psychologist and geneticist and a professor at the University of Texas professor at the University of Texas professor at the University of Texas Austin. Dr. Harden is an expert in how Austin. Dr. Harden is an expert in how Austin. Dr. Harden is an expert in how our genes shape our life trajectory, our genes shape our life trajectory, our genes shape our life trajectory, especially how they interact with life especially how they interact with life especially how they interact with life events during our adolescence and how events during our adolescence and how events during our adolescence and how they impact our long-term mental and they impact our long-term mental and they impact our long-term mental and physical health. Today we discuss the physical health. Today we discuss the physical health. Today we discuss the interplay of nature and nurture in interplay of nature and nurture in interplay of nature and nurture in addiction, criminality, susceptibility addiction, criminality, susceptibility addiction, criminality, susceptibility to trauma, and the larger themes of sin, to trauma, and the larger themes of sin, to trauma, and the larger themes of sin, sociopathy, empathy, and forgiveness. As sociopathy, empathy, and forgiveness. As sociopathy, empathy, and forgiveness. As you'll soon see, Dr. Harden is unique in you'll soon see, Dr. Harden is unique in you'll soon see, Dr. Harden is unique in her ability to define how biology, her ability to define how biology, her ability to define how biology, psychology, and the sometimes randomness psychology, and the sometimes randomness psychology, and the sometimes randomness of life interact to drive people's of life interact to drive people's of life interact to drive people's choices. Today we talk about known choices. Today we talk about known choices. Today we talk about known differences between males and females, differences between males and females, differences between males and females, the role of hormones and hormone the role of hormones and hormone the role of hormones and hormone independent influences on male female independent influences on male female independent influences on male female differences and how people assume differences and how people assume differences and how people assume different roles in life depending on the different roles in life depending on the different roles in life depending on the power structures they find themselves power structures they find themselves power structures they find themselves in. I want to be very clear that this is in. I want to be very clear that this is in. I want to be very clear that this is not a tap dance around the big issues not a tap dance around the big issues not a tap dance around the big issues episode. Today you are going to hear a episode. Today you are going to hear a episode. Today you are going to hear a very direct conversation about what the very direct conversation about what the very direct conversation about what the best science says about the role of best science says about the role of best science says about the role of genes and environment on human choice genes and environment on human choice genes and environment on human choice and how the biology meaning genes and and how the biology meaning genes and and how the biology meaning genes and everything downstream of them everything downstream of them everything downstream of them neurotransmitters hormones etc drive neurotransmitters hormones etc drive neurotransmitters hormones etc drive what choices are available to people and what choices are available to people and what choices are available to people and which ones they tend to make. I've long which ones they tend to make. I've long which ones they tend to make. I've long been a fan of Dr. Katherine Paige been a fan of Dr. Katherine Paige been a fan of Dr. Katherine Paige Harden's work because I know of no one Harden's work because I know of no one Harden's work because I know of no one else researching these topics with the else researching these topics with the else researching these topics with the level of rigor that she is. And as level of rigor that she is. And as level of rigor that she is. And as you'll soon hear, she is an exceptional you'll soon hear, she is an exceptional you'll soon hear, she is an exceptional educator. She's clear. She's direct to educator. She's clear. She's direct to educator. She's clear. She's direct to the question and her compassion and the question and her compassion and the question and her compassion and belief in people's ability to better belief in people's ability to better belief in people's ability to better themselves no matter what their genes themselves no matter what their genes themselves no matter what their genes are and to better the world is woven are and to better the world is woven are and to better the world is woven into everything she says and it's all into everything she says and it's all into everything she says and it's all backed by data. I should also mention backed by data. I should also mention backed by data. I should also mention that I learned during today's episode that I learned during today's episode that I learned during today's episode that Dr. Katherine Paige Harden has a that Dr. Katherine Paige Harden has a that Dr. Katherine Paige Harden has a new book coming out soon. It is entitled new book coming out soon. It is entitled new book coming out soon. It is entitled Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, the Problems with Blame and the Future the Problems with Blame and the Future the Problems with Blame and the Future of Forgiveness. And you can find that of Forgiveness. And you can find that of Forgiveness. And you can find that anywhere books are sold. It's now anywhere books are sold. It's now anywhere books are sold. It's now available for pre-sale. Before we begin, available for pre-sale. Before we begin, available for pre-sale. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast I'd like to emphasize that this podcast I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and is separate from my teaching and is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is research roles at Stanford. It is research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to however part of my desire and effort to however part of my desire and effort to bring zerocost to consumer information bring zerocost to consumer information bring zerocost to consumer information about science and science related tools about science and science related tools about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with to the general public. In keeping with to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include that theme, today's episode does include that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with sponsors. And now for my discussion with sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. Dr. Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. Dr. Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. Dr. Katherine Paige Harden, welcome. Katherine Paige Harden, welcome. Katherine Paige Harden, welcome. >> Hi, thank you for having me. Few things >> Hi, thank you for having me. Few things >> Hi, thank you for having me. Few things are as interesting to people as the are as interesting to people as the are as interesting to people as the relationship between genes and behavior relationship between genes and behavior relationship between genes and behavior or what we call genotype and phenotype, or what we call genotype and phenotype, or what we call genotype and phenotype, the expression of all the stuff the expression of all the stuff the expression of all the stuff downstream of genes. And few things are downstream of genes. And few things are downstream of genes. And few things are as interesting as adolescence and as interesting as adolescence and as interesting as adolescence and puberty and the home we grew up in and puberty and the home we grew up in and puberty and the home we grew up in and how our genes interact with our choices how our genes interact with our choices how our genes interact with our choices etc. You work at the intersection of all etc. You work at the intersection of all etc. You work at the intersection of all of those which is a very brave thing to of those which is a very brave thing to of those which is a very brave thing to do. Could you just frame for us why you do. Could you just frame for us why you do. Could you just frame for us why you selected to study the relationship selected to study the relationship selected to study the relationship between genes and outcomes using between genes and outcomes using between genes and outcomes using adolescence as uh the time point in adolescence as uh the time point in adolescence as uh the time point in which you jump off from those questions? which you jump off from those questions? which you jump off from those questions? Because it could have been, you know, Because it could have been, you know, Because it could have been, you know, from infancy or in in an old age. Why from infancy or in in an old age. Why from infancy or in in an old age. Why adolescence? adolescence? adolescence? >> Yeah. So, I did my PhD at the University >> Yeah. So, I did my PhD at the University >> Yeah. So, I did my PhD at the University of Virginia and I was trained as a of Virginia and I was trained as a of Virginia and I was trained as a clinical psychologist. And if you're clinical psychologist. And if you're clinical psychologist. And if you're looking at when does mental illness looking at when does mental illness looking at when does mental illness emerge, when does this risk for mental emerge, when does this risk for mental emerge, when does this risk for mental illness really start to increase, it's illness really start to increase, it's illness really start to increase, it's in adolescence. So most cases of in adolescence. So most cases of in adolescence. So most cases of substance use disorders or addiction substance use disorders or addiction substance use disorders or addiction begin in adolescence. That's when begin in adolescence. That's when begin in adolescence. That's when people's risk for depression goes up. If people's risk for depression goes up. If people's risk for depression goes up. If you're going to have a for psychotic you're going to have a for psychotic you're going to have a for psychotic episode, that's going to be in late episode, that's going to be in late episode, that's going to be in late adolescence, early adulthood. So from a adolescence, early adulthood. So from a adolescence, early adulthood. So from a clinical perspective, adolescence is clinical perspective, adolescence is clinical perspective, adolescence is really interesting. And then I'm also really interesting. And then I'm also really interesting. And then I'm also was trained as a lifespan developmental was trained as a lifespan developmental was trained as a lifespan developmental psychologist. So thinking about how does psychologist. So thinking about how does psychologist. So thinking about how does what's happening early in the life what's happening early in the life what's happening early in the life reverberate really through the rest of reverberate really through the rest of reverberate really through the rest of your lifespan. And if you think about your lifespan. And if you think about your lifespan. And if you think about when in life do individual differences when in life do individual differences when in life do individual differences between people emerge, canalize, get between people emerge, canalize, get between people emerge, canalize, get deeper. When are people's life deeper. When are people's life deeper. When are people's life trajectories really starting to be trajectories really starting to be trajectories really starting to be apparent? It's in adolescence. So I came apparent? It's in adolescence. So I came apparent? It's in adolescence. So I came into this field really interested in into this field really interested in into this field really interested in teenagers, late childhood in the teenage teenagers, late childhood in the teenage teenagers, late childhood in the teenage years. So thinking about puberty, sexual years. So thinking about puberty, sexual years. So thinking about puberty, sexual behavior, but then from there what's behavior, but then from there what's behavior, but then from there what's happening in adolescence, it's also happening in adolescence, it's also happening in adolescence, it's also rulebreaking or aggression or again risk rulebreaking or aggression or again risk rulebreaking or aggression or again risk for alcohol and drug use. So my research for alcohol and drug use. So my research for alcohol and drug use. So my research program was really based on okay well program was really based on okay well program was really based on okay well what's happening in this period of life what's happening in this period of life what's happening in this period of life where the genes we're born with and the where the genes we're born with and the where the genes we're born with and the family environments we were raised with family environments we were raised with family environments we were raised with how do they combine to shape people's how do they combine to shape people's how do they combine to shape people's lives by the time people finish their lives by the time people finish their lives by the time people finish their teenage years they begin adulthood teenage years they begin adulthood teenage years they begin adulthood they're beginning adulthood on such they're beginning adulthood on such they're beginning adulthood on such different life trajectories different life trajectories different life trajectories >> what ages uh constitute uh adolescence >> what ages uh constitute uh adolescence >> what ages uh constitute uh adolescence [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I mean that's changing I think right >> I mean that's changing I think right >> I mean that's changing I think right Yeah. Um, we typically think of Yeah. Um, we typically think of Yeah. Um, we typically think of adolescence as beginning with the adolescence as beginning with the adolescence as beginning with the physical changes of puberty, right? physical changes of puberty, right? physical changes of puberty, right? Adolescence is this period of transition Adolescence is this period of transition Adolescence is this period of transition to reproductive and social maturity. So, to reproductive and social maturity. So, to reproductive and social maturity. So, we're thinking of adolescence as we're thinking of adolescence as we're thinking of adolescence as beginning between 10 and 13 when people beginning between 10 and 13 when people beginning between 10 and 13 when people are going through puberty. I think more are going through puberty. I think more are going through puberty. I think more controversial is when does adolescence controversial is when does adolescence controversial is when does adolescence end? because historically we've defined end? because historically we've defined end? because historically we've defined that as you're an adult when you take on that as you're an adult when you take on that as you're an adult when you take on the social roles of adulthood and that the social roles of adulthood and that the social roles of adulthood and that keeps being you know for various reasons keeps being you know for various reasons keeps being you know for various reasons economic social reasons pushed back economic social reasons pushed back economic social reasons pushed back later and later so I've typically later and later so I've typically later and later so I've typically studied people between 10 and 25 so that studied people between 10 and 25 so that studied people between 10 and 25 so that kind of 15-year period a 10-year-old is kind of 15-year period a 10-year-old is kind of 15-year period a 10-year-old is clearly a child a 25-year-old is about clearly a child a 25-year-old is about clearly a child a 25-year-old is about to be kicked off their parents insurance to be kicked off their parents insurance to be kicked off their parents insurance they can finally run a car they can they can finally run a car they can they can finally run a car they can technically take on the social roles of technically take on the social roles of technically take on the social roles of adulthood And that's a long period of adulthood And that's a long period of adulthood And that's a long period of time where a lot of things are happening time where a lot of things are happening time where a lot of things are happening in the body, in the brain. in the body, in the brain. in the body, in the brain. >> This may be outside the scope of of what >> This may be outside the scope of of what >> This may be outside the scope of of what you work on, but I've always been struck you work on, but I've always been struck you work on, but I've always been struck by the fact that while kids, including by the fact that while kids, including by the fact that while kids, including myself, um, generally hit puberty myself, um, generally hit puberty myself, um, generally hit puberty somewhere, as you said, between 10 and somewhere, as you said, between 10 and somewhere, as you said, between 10 and 13 or maybe 14. 13 or maybe 14. 13 or maybe 14. Some seem to go through puberty for a Some seem to go through puberty for a Some seem to go through puberty for a much longer period of time. And I think much longer period of time. And I think much longer period of time. And I think of puberty as perhaps one of the biggest of puberty as perhaps one of the biggest of puberty as perhaps one of the biggest developmental milestones because the developmental milestones because the developmental milestones because the brain changes, hormones change of brain changes, hormones change of brain changes, hormones change of course, but perceptually and how people course, but perceptually and how people course, but perceptually and how people perceive you changes completely. And the perceive you changes completely. And the perceive you changes completely. And the acquisition of what we know as secondary acquisition of what we know as secondary acquisition of what we know as secondary sex characteristics um seems to occur at sex characteristics um seems to occur at sex characteristics um seems to occur at such different rates. So I mean I can be such different rates. So I mean I can be such different rates. So I mean I can be open about this. I I know I hit puberty open about this. I I know I hit puberty open about this. I I know I hit puberty by I know at uh at uh 14. by I know at uh at uh 14. by I know at uh at uh 14. >> Uhhuh. But then I didn't, you know, I >> Uhhuh. But then I didn't, you know, I >> Uhhuh. But then I didn't, you know, I didn't really shave until I was almost didn't really shave until I was almost didn't really shave until I was almost graduating college. Yeah. graduating college. Yeah. graduating college. Yeah. >> But I had grown, right? Whereas there >> But I had grown, right? Whereas there >> But I had grown, right? Whereas there were other kids that we went home for were other kids that we went home for were other kids that we went home for the summer the summer the summer >> and they came back >> and they came back >> and they came back >> and they came back like not a grown man >> and they came back like not a grown man >> and they came back like not a grown man but looking like this guy's but looking like this guy's but looking like this guy's >> looking like a grown man. >> looking like a grown man. >> looking like a grown man. >> Yeah. And kicking our butts in soccer >> Yeah. And kicking our butts in soccer >> Yeah. And kicking our butts in soccer and he's just, you know, just in terms and he's just, you know, just in terms and he's just, you know, just in terms of of of >> everything, right? But then, and I I >> everything, right? But then, and I I >> everything, right? But then, and I I don't want to out this person, but then don't want to out this person, but then don't want to out this person, but then when I look at us now, it seems that the when I look at us now, it seems that the when I look at us now, it seems that the people that went through puberty more people that went through puberty more people that went through puberty more quickly may have aged more quickly in quickly may have aged more quickly in quickly may have aged more quickly in general. Is there a any notion of a general. Is there a any notion of a general. Is there a any notion of a clock and the rate of that clock turning clock and the rate of that clock turning clock and the rate of that clock turning can be sort of visualized in puberty and can be sort of visualized in puberty and can be sort of visualized in puberty and predict longevity? Is there any predict longevity? Is there any predict longevity? Is there any relationship there? relationship there? relationship there? >> We are working on this right now. So, we >> We are working on this right now. So, we >> We are working on this right now. So, we can think about individual differences can think about individual differences can think about individual differences in puberty in three ways. We can think in puberty in three ways. We can think in puberty in three ways. We can think about pubertal timing. So when does it about pubertal timing. So when does it about pubertal timing. So when does it start? start? start? >> Um for girls, pubertal timing seems to >> Um for girls, pubertal timing seems to >> Um for girls, pubertal timing seems to be early pubertal timing seems to be the be early pubertal timing seems to be the be early pubertal timing seems to be the best predictor of risk for mental health best predictor of risk for mental health best predictor of risk for mental health problems, physical health problems, problems, physical health problems, problems, physical health problems, earlier menopause, shorter lifespan, earlier menopause, shorter lifespan, earlier menopause, shorter lifespan, >> early onset of puberty. >> early onset of puberty. >> early onset of puberty. >> Early onset of >> Early onset of >> Early onset of >> it's not looking at the sort of rate of >> it's not looking at the sort of rate of >> it's not looking at the sort of rate of characteristics. characteristics. characteristics. >> Yeah. For boys, >> Yeah. For boys, >> Yeah. For boys, you it seems that the difference in you it seems that the difference in you it seems that the difference in pubertal pace or pubertal some people pubertal pace or pubertal some people pubertal pace or pubertal some people call it pubertal tempo. So, not just how call it pubertal tempo. So, not just how call it pubertal tempo. So, not just how early does it start, but how long does early does it start, but how long does early does it start, but how long does it take it take it take >> for all of those changes to unfold? Um, >> for all of those changes to unfold? Um, >> for all of those changes to unfold? Um, we did a study many years ago where we we did a study many years ago where we we did a study many years ago where we found that boys were less affected by found that boys were less affected by found that boys were less affected by when it started but more affected at when it started but more affected at when it started but more affected at least for their emotional development by least for their emotional development by least for their emotional development by how quickly it happened with boys where how quickly it happened with boys where how quickly it happened with boys where they changed overnight having the they changed overnight having the they changed overnight having the hardest time sort of assimilating all hardest time sort of assimilating all hardest time sort of assimilating all these changes that are happening because these changes that are happening because these changes that are happening because your cognition is not necessarily your cognition is not necessarily your cognition is not necessarily maturing as quickly as your height or maturing as quickly as your height or maturing as quickly as your height or your musculature or your hormones. And your musculature or your hormones. And your musculature or your hormones. And so it seemed that boys seem to be so it seemed that boys seem to be so it seemed that boys seem to be particularly sensitive to going through particularly sensitive to going through particularly sensitive to going through puberty very very quickly. What we've puberty very very quickly. What we've puberty very very quickly. What we've been looking at recently is how the been looking at recently is how the been looking at recently is how the epiggenome changes during this period of epiggenome changes during this period of epiggenome changes during this period of time. So the genome is your DNA. It's time. So the genome is your DNA. It's time. So the genome is your DNA. It's the DNA sequence in your cells and that the DNA sequence in your cells and that the DNA sequence in your cells and that doesn't change with development. But the doesn't change with development. But the doesn't change with development. But the epiggenome is everything on top of the epiggenome is everything on top of the epiggenome is everything on top of the genome that affects how DNA is used by genome that affects how DNA is used by genome that affects how DNA is used by the body, used by the cells. And there's the body, used by the cells. And there's the body, used by the cells. And there's one epigenetic mechanism known as DNA one epigenetic mechanism known as DNA one epigenetic mechanism known as DNA methylation, which is, you know, a methylation, which is, you know, a methylation, which is, you know, a methyl group is is basically like this methyl group is is basically like this methyl group is is basically like this chemical tag and it can get kind of chemical tag and it can get kind of chemical tag and it can get kind of tagged onto the genome. So there's great tagged onto the genome. So there's great tagged onto the genome. So there's great work in aging that shows that the work in aging that shows that the work in aging that shows that the epigenetic clock measured by DNA epigenetic clock measured by DNA epigenetic clock measured by DNA methylation starts ticking methylation starts ticking methylation starts ticking in infancy and faster biological aging in infancy and faster biological aging in infancy and faster biological aging as measured by the epiggenome predicts as measured by the epiggenome predicts as measured by the epiggenome predicts shorter lifespan, worse health, earlier shorter lifespan, worse health, earlier shorter lifespan, worse health, earlier mortality. What we looked at is well mortality. What we looked at is well mortality. What we looked at is well instead of training an an epigenetic instead of training an an epigenetic instead of training an an epigenetic clock on age, can we train it on clock on age, can we train it on clock on age, can we train it on pubertal development? So, how physically pubertal development? So, how physically pubertal development? So, how physically mature you are? And what we found is you mature you are? And what we found is you mature you are? And what we found is you can. So, there's these these the clock can. So, there's these these the clock can. So, there's these these the clock is ticking is ticking is ticking as you get older, but the clock is as you get older, but the clock is as you get older, but the clock is there's another clock that's also there's another clock that's also there's another clock that's also ticking as you become more physically ticking as you become more physically ticking as you become more physically mature. And those two things are mature. And those two things are mature. And those two things are correlated. So the epigenetic changes correlated. So the epigenetic changes correlated. So the epigenetic changes that we see as you go through puberty that we see as you go through puberty that we see as you go through puberty faster faster faster um do seem to be related to aging more um do seem to be related to aging more um do seem to be related to aging more rapidly even in older life. So our rapidly even in older life. So our rapidly even in older life. So our reproductive development is I think very reproductive development is I think very reproductive development is I think very tied at a cellular molecular level with tied at a cellular molecular level with tied at a cellular molecular level with our lifespan development. And we see our lifespan development. And we see our lifespan development. And we see this across species. If you genetically this across species. If you genetically this across species. If you genetically engineer mice to go through puberty engineer mice to go through puberty engineer mice to go through puberty earlier they die earlier. So, we have earlier they die earlier. So, we have earlier they die earlier. So, we have this trade-off between reproductive this trade-off between reproductive this trade-off between reproductive maturity and lifespan across species maturity and lifespan across species maturity and lifespan across species within species. And I think now we're within species. And I think now we're within species. And I think now we're beginning to see that at the molecular beginning to see that at the molecular beginning to see that at the molecular level, too. level, too. level, too. >> Fascinating. I also like the way that >> Fascinating. I also like the way that >> Fascinating. I also like the way that answer lands because I had a very answer lands because I had a very answer lands because I had a very protracted puberty. protracted puberty. protracted puberty. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh and I feel grateful for that. >> Uh and I feel grateful for that. >> Uh and I feel grateful for that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In retrospect, because, you know, in >> In retrospect, because, you know, in >> In retrospect, because, you know, in terms of um athletic ability and things terms of um athletic ability and things terms of um athletic ability and things like that, I was I wasn't really like that, I was I wasn't really like that, I was I wasn't really delayed, but I sort of couldn't get past delayed, but I sort of couldn't get past delayed, but I sort of couldn't get past the sort of middle of the distribution. the sort of middle of the distribution. the sort of middle of the distribution. But then over time it's like this is But then over time it's like this is But then over time it's like this is kind of wild. I feel like I'm I look kind of wild. I feel like I'm I look kind of wild. I feel like I'm I look very different. I looked very different very different. I looked very different very different. I looked very different at 30 than I did at 20. Like marketkedly at 30 than I did at 20. Like marketkedly at 30 than I did at 20. Like marketkedly different without doing anything except different without doing anything except different without doing anything except >> existing. Some people seem kind of >> existing. Some people seem kind of >> existing. Some people seem kind of frozen in their adult look frozen in their adult look frozen in their adult look >> at this earlier age. >> at this earlier age. >> at this earlier age. >> Earlier age >> Earlier age >> Earlier age >> and in from the animal literature and >> and in from the animal literature and >> and in from the animal literature and I'm thinking the studies um from my I'm thinking the studies um from my I'm thinking the studies um from my colleague Eric Nudson in particular colleague Eric Nudson in particular colleague Eric Nudson in particular where he was looking at plasticity and where he was looking at plasticity and where he was looking at plasticity and barn owls but it's been looked at barn owls but it's been looked at barn owls but it's been looked at elsewhere. There's this really striking elsewhere. There's this really striking elsewhere. There's this really striking correlation between the onset of puberty correlation between the onset of puberty correlation between the onset of puberty and the end of the so-called critical and the end of the so-called critical and the end of the so-called critical period for neuroplasticity. Of course, period for neuroplasticity. Of course, period for neuroplasticity. Of course, plasticity can go on throughout the plasticity can go on throughout the plasticity can go on throughout the lifespan, but the plasticity that occurs lifespan, but the plasticity that occurs lifespan, but the plasticity that occurs >> until and around puberty >> until and around puberty >> until and around puberty >> is, you know, an order of magnitude >> is, you know, an order of magnitude >> is, you know, an order of magnitude greater than the plasticity that's greater than the plasticity that's greater than the plasticity that's available as say a 30-year-old or available as say a 30-year-old or available as say a 30-year-old or 40-year-old. Mhm. 40-year-old. Mhm. 40-year-old. Mhm. >> So they've done the experiments of uh >> So they've done the experiments of uh >> So they've done the experiments of uh like overreacttoizing like overreacttoizing like overreacttoizing um animals or taking the testicles out um animals or taking the testicles out um animals or taking the testicles out of animals and preventing somewhat of animals and preventing somewhat of animals and preventing somewhat preventing puberty and it doesn't seem preventing puberty and it doesn't seem preventing puberty and it doesn't seem to extend that window. So in humans is to extend that window. So in humans is to extend that window. So in humans is there any relationship between there any relationship between there any relationship between cognition, brain flexibility and the cognition, brain flexibility and the cognition, brain flexibility and the onset of puberty, the timing of the onset of puberty, the timing of the onset of puberty, the timing of the onset of puberty? onset of puberty? onset of puberty? >> That's a really interesting question and >> That's a really interesting question and >> That's a really interesting question and it's complicated. it's complicated. it's complicated. um in part because it's like well what um in part because it's like well what um in part because it's like well what part of plasticity are you looking at? part of plasticity are you looking at? part of plasticity are you looking at? What part of brain development are you What part of brain development are you What part of brain development are you looking at? And also with humans we looking at? And also with humans we looking at? And also with humans we can't unlike animals manipulate the can't unlike animals manipulate the can't unlike animals manipulate the onset of puberty in quite the same way. onset of puberty in quite the same way. onset of puberty in quite the same way. So, it does seem like there are some So, it does seem like there are some So, it does seem like there are some cognitive functions like if you're cognitive functions like if you're cognitive functions like if you're thinking about executive function thinking about executive function thinking about executive function ability, your ability to shift attention ability, your ability to shift attention ability, your ability to shift attention or update, um the things that are tested or update, um the things that are tested or update, um the things that are tested by a standard IQ test, those seem to be by a standard IQ test, those seem to be by a standard IQ test, those seem to be much more age related, whereas um your much more age related, whereas um your much more age related, whereas um your ability to learn from peers versus your ability to learn from peers versus your ability to learn from peers versus your parents, your sensitivity to risk and parents, your sensitivity to risk and parents, your sensitivity to risk and certain types of emotions, that seems to certain types of emotions, that seems to certain types of emotions, that seems to be more tied pubertal development than be more tied pubertal development than be more tied pubertal development than with age. But they're so confounded with age. But they're so confounded with age. But they're so confounded within within within observational studies in humans that observational studies in humans that observational studies in humans that it's a continuing challenge to try to it's a continuing challenge to try to it's a continuing challenge to try to pull these apart. pull these apart. pull these apart. >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy BetterHelp offers professional therapy BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out with a licensed therapist carried out with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing therapy entirely online. I've been doing therapy entirely online. 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It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diagnosis of diseases, including diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. individual responses may vary. diabetes. individual responses may vary. diabetes. individual responses may vary. I recall some mouse data showing that if I recall some mouse data showing that if I recall some mouse data showing that if you um expose young uh pre uh pubescent you um expose young uh pre uh pubescent you um expose young uh pre uh pubescent mice to older males, they enter puberty mice to older males, they enter puberty mice to older males, they enter puberty earlier. Does that exist in humans as earlier. Does that exist in humans as earlier. Does that exist in humans as well? well? well? >> So, this is a controversial area of >> So, this is a controversial area of >> So, this is a controversial area of research. It is true that um girls, research. It is true that um girls, research. It is true that um girls, human girls who are raised with a human girls who are raised with a human girls who are raised with a nonbiological father do on average tend nonbiological father do on average tend nonbiological father do on average tend to go through puberty earlier. And some to go through puberty earlier. And some to go through puberty earlier. And some have hypothesized that it's a similar have hypothesized that it's a similar have hypothesized that it's a similar sort of cue from the environment about sort of cue from the environment about sort of cue from the environment about the stability and availability of the stability and availability of the stability and availability of resources. If dad is gone, maybe the resources. If dad is gone, maybe the resources. If dad is gone, maybe the provisioning of the environment is going provisioning of the environment is going provisioning of the environment is going to be less stable. Maybe evolution would to be less stable. Maybe evolution would to be less stable. Maybe evolution would favor a reproductive strategy where you favor a reproductive strategy where you favor a reproductive strategy where you go through puberty earlier rather than go through puberty earlier rather than go through puberty earlier rather than this continued, you know, childhood is this continued, you know, childhood is this continued, you know, childhood is so costly, right? Like a human childhood so costly, right? Like a human childhood so costly, right? Like a human childhood is long. It takes a lot. I have three is long. It takes a lot. I have three is long. It takes a lot. I have three kids. It takes a lot to feed them, to kids. It takes a lot to feed them, to kids. It takes a lot to feed them, to grow an adult. And so it might make grow an adult. And so it might make grow an adult. And so it might make sense to say, okay, well, if resources sense to say, okay, well, if resources sense to say, okay, well, if resources are going to be scarce, or if resources are going to be scarce, or if resources are going to be scarce, or if resources are going to be unpredictable, it might are going to be unpredictable, it might are going to be unpredictable, it might be better for me to have this strategy be better for me to have this strategy be better for me to have this strategy where I go through puberty earlier. where I go through puberty earlier. where I go through puberty earlier. What's difficult about that is that What's difficult about that is that What's difficult about that is that people don't end up in family structures people don't end up in family structures people don't end up in family structures at random. And moms who go through at random. And moms who go through at random. And moms who go through puberty are more likely to have sex at puberty are more likely to have sex at puberty are more likely to have sex at younger ages, more likely to end up in younger ages, more likely to end up in younger ages, more likely to end up in non-marital childbearing family non-marital childbearing family non-marital childbearing family structures, and are likely to have structures, and are likely to have structures, and are likely to have daughters who are being raised without a daughters who are being raised without a daughters who are being raised without a biological father. So, is it the biological father. So, is it the biological father. So, is it the biological father absence that's causing biological father absence that's causing biological father absence that's causing the earlier puberty, or is it that mom the earlier puberty, or is it that mom the earlier puberty, or is it that mom has genes that predispose her towards has genes that predispose her towards has genes that predispose her towards early puberty that changes her early puberty that changes her early puberty that changes her reproductive life and then she's more reproductive life and then she's more reproductive life and then she's more likely to be in this certain family likely to be in this certain family likely to be in this certain family structure and pass on those genes to her structure and pass on those genes to her structure and pass on those genes to her daughters? It seems to be a little bit daughters? It seems to be a little bit daughters? It seems to be a little bit of both, which is kind of the standard of both, which is kind of the standard of both, which is kind of the standard answer to all of our questions about answer to all of our questions about answer to all of our questions about nature and nurture. That um gene there's nature and nurture. That um gene there's nature and nurture. That um gene there's a very strong genetic effect on the a very strong genetic effect on the a very strong genetic effect on the timing of puberty for both boys and timing of puberty for both boys and timing of puberty for both boys and girls, but that also the environment is girls, but that also the environment is girls, but that also the environment is pushing it in different directions. And pushing it in different directions. And pushing it in different directions. And that's part of why we're seeing that the that's part of why we're seeing that the that's part of why we're seeing that the age of puberty keeps going down with age of puberty keeps going down with age of puberty keeps going down with every successive cohort. I mean, it's every successive cohort. I mean, it's every successive cohort. I mean, it's been falling for the last basically as been falling for the last basically as been falling for the last basically as long as we've been keeping data. people long as we've been keeping data. people long as we've been keeping data. people have been going through puberty earlier. have been going through puberty earlier. have been going through puberty earlier. >> I'm realizing that you have a very very >> I'm realizing that you have a very very >> I'm realizing that you have a very very difficult job because the languaging is difficult job because the languaging is difficult job because the languaging is so delicate. Yeah. so delicate. Yeah. so delicate. Yeah. >> So, I'm just going to jump on the bed of >> So, I'm just going to jump on the bed of >> So, I'm just going to jump on the bed of nails for you. nails for you. nails for you. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I've also heard that if the biological >> I've also heard that if the biological >> I've also heard that if the biological father is present, it provides a quote father is present, it provides a quote father is present, it provides a quote unquote protective effect against this unquote protective effect against this unquote protective effect against this earlier onset of puberty in the presence earlier onset of puberty in the presence earlier onset of puberty in the presence of the non-biological father. of the non-biological father. of the non-biological father. But just that language protective effect But just that language protective effect But just that language protective effect implies that a one-year shift or implies that a one-year shift or implies that a one-year shift or two-year shift earlier puberty is two-year shift earlier puberty is two-year shift earlier puberty is somehow bad. Like immediate I think the somehow bad. Like immediate I think the somehow bad. Like immediate I think the human brain just works this way, right? human brain just works this way, right? human brain just works this way, right? For understandable reasons think, oh, For understandable reasons think, oh, For understandable reasons think, oh, you know, these these young girls that you know, these these young girls that you know, these these young girls that were supposed to go into puberty at 14, were supposed to go into puberty at 14, were supposed to go into puberty at 14, they're now going to puberty at, you they're now going to puberty at, you they're now going to puberty at, you know, 10 because the the dad was absent. know, 10 because the the dad was absent. know, 10 because the the dad was absent. They we the humanize it. They we the humanize it. They we the humanize it. >> They pathize it and they write a script. >> They pathize it and they write a script. >> They pathize it and they write a script. And then, as you point out, you know, And then, as you point out, you know, And then, as you point out, you know, there's things related to the the there's things related to the the there's things related to the the situation as it relates to the the situation as it relates to the the situation as it relates to the the mother and her choices and her genes, mother and her choices and her genes, mother and her choices and her genes, and and and >> it's a it's a real barwire mess for the >> it's a it's a real barwire mess for the >> it's a it's a real barwire mess for the >> typical person um to try and pull apart. >> typical person um to try and pull apart. >> typical person um to try and pull apart. You're pulling these things apart You're pulling these things apart You're pulling these things apart beautifully, but it's also um fodder for beautifully, but it's also um fodder for beautifully, but it's also um fodder for anyone that wants to drive a narrative. anyone that wants to drive a narrative. anyone that wants to drive a narrative. That's tough. How how do you navigate That's tough. How how do you navigate That's tough. How how do you navigate that? because I'm going to ask you about that? because I'm going to ask you about that? because I'm going to ask you about adolescence and genes and and um uh adolescence and genes and and um uh adolescence and genes and and um uh sexual promiscuity, right? We're talking sexual promiscuity, right? We're talking sexual promiscuity, right? We're talking about today we're going to talk about about today we're going to talk about about today we're going to talk about sin, you know, and so how do you sin, you know, and so how do you sin, you know, and so how do you >> how do you look at these things? I know >> how do you look at these things? I know >> how do you look at these things? I know you look at them objectively, but then you look at them objectively, but then you look at them objectively, but then how does one choose to communicate about how does one choose to communicate about how does one choose to communicate about these things in a way that doesn't arm these things in a way that doesn't arm these things in a way that doesn't arm people to kind of run their own agendas people to kind of run their own agendas people to kind of run their own agendas whether they realize it or not? whether they realize it or not? whether they realize it or not? >> Yeah, I'm not sure I'm the best person >> Yeah, I'm not sure I'm the best person >> Yeah, I'm not sure I'm the best person to give advice about that. I, you know, to give advice about that. I, you know, to give advice about that. I, you know, I'm a scientist. I'm a mother. I'm a I'm a scientist. I'm a mother. I'm a I'm a scientist. I'm a mother. I'm a college professor. I teach intro psych college professor. I teach intro psych college professor. I teach intro psych at UT. And so I'm always thinking about at UT. And so I'm always thinking about at UT. And so I'm always thinking about what does the science say? How would I what does the science say? How would I what does the science say? How would I explain this to my 13-year-old? How explain this to my 13-year-old? How explain this to my 13-year-old? How would I explain this to my undergrads? would I explain this to my undergrads? would I explain this to my undergrads? And with a sense of awe and respect for And with a sense of awe and respect for And with a sense of awe and respect for how amazing a human body and brain is, how amazing a human body and brain is, how amazing a human body and brain is, right? Like to think about we as women right? Like to think about we as women right? Like to think about we as women as as at one time girls are equipped as as at one time girls are equipped as as at one time girls are equipped with a brain that's with a brain that's with a brain that's you know looking out into the you know looking out into the you know looking out into the environment and integrating all of these environment and integrating all of these environment and integrating all of these signals about internal and external signals about internal and external signals about internal and external about you know resources and stress and about you know resources and stress and about you know resources and stress and body weight and light and integrating body weight and light and integrating body weight and light and integrating that to say okay now's the best time for that to say okay now's the best time for that to say okay now's the best time for us in our situation to go. Now is the us in our situation to go. Now is the us in our situation to go. Now is the time for our our bodies to change in time for our our bodies to change in time for our our bodies to change in these amazing ways. That is that is these amazing ways. That is that is these amazing ways. That is that is puberty. I feel like I keep coming back puberty. I feel like I keep coming back puberty. I feel like I keep coming back to if we have respect for the to if we have respect for the to if we have respect for the amazingness of the human body and the amazingness of the human body and the amazingness of the human body and the brain and I'm trying to communicate it brain and I'm trying to communicate it brain and I'm trying to communicate it with clarity and empathy in the way that with clarity and empathy in the way that with clarity and empathy in the way that my 13-year-old son would understand it. my 13-year-old son would understand it. my 13-year-old son would understand it. I don't always succeed at that goal, but I don't always succeed at that goal, but I don't always succeed at that goal, but that's really my I feel like that as an that's really my I feel like that as an that's really my I feel like that as an educator, that's how I'm approaching educator, that's how I'm approaching educator, that's how I'm approaching these topics. these topics. these topics. >> Well, I I appreciate you saying that. >> Well, I I appreciate you saying that. >> Well, I I appreciate you saying that. I'm I didn't ask that to kind of I'm I didn't ask that to kind of I'm I didn't ask that to kind of inoculate against anything. Um but now inoculate against anything. Um but now inoculate against anything. Um but now we can really get [laughter] in get into we can really get [laughter] in get into we can really get [laughter] in get into the get into the tangle. the get into the tangle. the get into the tangle. >> Yeah. I have long thought that um the >> Yeah. I have long thought that um the >> Yeah. I have long thought that um the hypothalamus, right, these this various hypothalamus, right, these this various hypothalamus, right, these this various clusters of neurons uh above the roof of clusters of neurons uh above the roof of clusters of neurons uh above the roof of our mouth that drive hunger and sex our mouth that drive hunger and sex our mouth that drive hunger and sex behavior and thirst and aggression and behavior and thirst and aggression and behavior and thirst and aggression and um and a bunch of other interesting um and a bunch of other interesting um and a bunch of other interesting things. Um things. Um things. Um >> is sort of the seat of the seven deadly >> is sort of the seat of the seven deadly >> is sort of the seat of the seven deadly sins. sins. sins. >> I've heard you say this before. >> I've heard you say this before. >> I've heard you say this before. >> Um and of course all those brain >> Um and of course all those brain >> Um and of course all those brain circuits uh and structures interact with circuits uh and structures interact with circuits uh and structures interact with other brain circuits and structures. other brain circuits and structures. other brain circuits and structures. That's uh there's no one location in the That's uh there's no one location in the That's uh there's no one location in the brain um that governs a behavior brain um that governs a behavior brain um that governs a behavior entirely with some rare exceptions. How entirely with some rare exceptions. How entirely with some rare exceptions. How do you think about the genetic do you think about the genetic do you think about the genetic programming of the hypothalamus in terms programming of the hypothalamus in terms programming of the hypothalamus in terms of people's proclivity for of people's proclivity for of people's proclivity for addiction, promiscuity, aggression, addiction, promiscuity, aggression, addiction, promiscuity, aggression, >> being overly passive in a way that might >> being overly passive in a way that might >> being overly passive in a way that might harm them or other people as well. harm them or other people as well. harm them or other people as well. >> I don't really think that much about the >> I don't really think that much about the >> I don't really think that much about the hypothalamus per se actually in relation hypothalamus per se actually in relation hypothalamus per se actually in relation to those behaviors. So just stepping to those behaviors. So just stepping to those behaviors. So just stepping back one step when you you made this back one step when you you made this back one step when you you made this reference to the seven deadly sins, reference to the seven deadly sins, reference to the seven deadly sins, right? So if I kind of kind of remember right? So if I kind of kind of remember right? So if I kind of kind of remember all of them, there's wrath, there's all of them, there's wrath, there's all of them, there's wrath, there's envy, there's lust, there's greed, envy, there's lust, there's greed, envy, there's lust, there's greed, there's sloth, and what do the seven there's sloth, and what do the seven there's sloth, and what do the seven deadly sins have in common? How can we deadly sins have in common? How can we deadly sins have in common? How can we operationalize that more scientifically? operationalize that more scientifically? operationalize that more scientifically? You know, what those behaviors all have You know, what those behaviors all have You know, what those behaviors all have in common is, I mean, I mean, accept in common is, I mean, I mean, accept in common is, I mean, I mean, accept envy for a second. is doing something envy for a second. is doing something envy for a second. is doing something that might be pleasurable in the short that might be pleasurable in the short that might be pleasurable in the short term term term um to the extent that there's negative um to the extent that there's negative um to the extent that there's negative consequences negative consequences to consequences negative consequences to consequences negative consequences to yourself or negative consequences to yourself or negative consequences to yourself or negative consequences to other people. I think envy is other people. I think envy is other people. I think envy is interesting because you're seeing other interesting because you're seeing other interesting because you're seeing other people enjoying pleasures and you're people enjoying pleasures and you're people enjoying pleasures and you're like I want that one right so it's kind like I want that one right so it's kind like I want that one right so it's kind of looking at other pe other people's of looking at other pe other people's of looking at other pe other people's pursuit of of things. I think of envy as pursuit of of things. I think of envy as pursuit of of things. I think of envy as a severe opportunity cost because as a severe opportunity cost because as a severe opportunity cost because as long as you're envying some what someone long as you're envying some what someone long as you're envying some what someone else has or is doing, then you're then else has or is doing, then you're then else has or is doing, then you're then you're missing all the stuff that's you're missing all the stuff that's you're missing all the stuff that's happening now that you could build your happening now that you could build your happening now that you could build your life on. life on. life on. >> I think of envy as like a clue to what >> I think of envy as like a clue to what >> I think of envy as like a clue to what do you desire that you haven't admitted do you desire that you haven't admitted do you desire that you haven't admitted to yourself. to yourself. to yourself. >> One question I ask graduate students >> One question I ask graduate students >> One question I ask graduate students when I'm recruiting them is whose career when I'm recruiting them is whose career when I'm recruiting them is whose career do you want? Whose career do you envy? do you want? Whose career do you envy? do you want? Whose career do you envy? because that tells me more about where because that tells me more about where because that tells me more about where they really want to go with their lives they really want to go with their lives they really want to go with their lives than than than >> you know their kind of prepared speech >> you know their kind of prepared speech >> you know their kind of prepared speech that they have for me. Good question. that they have for me. Good question. that they have for me. Good question. Yeah. You know, let's take wrath or Yeah. You know, let's take wrath or Yeah. You know, let's take wrath or let's take lust. You know, anger is an let's take lust. You know, anger is an let's take lust. You know, anger is an emotion that's useful. Sexual desire is emotion that's useful. Sexual desire is emotion that's useful. Sexual desire is an emotion that's useful. When do they an emotion that's useful. When do they an emotion that's useful. When do they become sins? They become sins in our become sins? They become sins in our become sins? They become sins in our minds when people are are engaging that minds when people are are engaging that minds when people are are engaging that behavior behavior behavior um in situations where we think it's um in situations where we think it's um in situations where we think it's going to be harmful not just to going to be harmful not just to going to be harmful not just to themselves but to other people. From a themselves but to other people. From a themselves but to other people. From a clinical psychology perspective, we clinical psychology perspective, we clinical psychology perspective, we would never say we're going to study the would never say we're going to study the would never say we're going to study the seven deadly sins, but we do have um seven deadly sins, but we do have um seven deadly sins, but we do have um clinical language or diagnosis where the clinical language or diagnosis where the clinical language or diagnosis where the predominant symptoms that you see are predominant symptoms that you see are predominant symptoms that you see are people engaging in behaviors that are people engaging in behaviors that are people engaging in behaviors that are impulsive, that are um maybe immediately impulsive, that are um maybe immediately impulsive, that are um maybe immediately pleasurable, but in the long term pleasurable, but in the long term pleasurable, but in the long term harmful to themselves or other people. harmful to themselves or other people. harmful to themselves or other people. So the obvious constellation of this is So the obvious constellation of this is So the obvious constellation of this is substance use disorders, right? So it's substance use disorders, right? So it's substance use disorders, right? So it's I'm I'm ingesting a substance. It feels I'm I'm ingesting a substance. It feels I'm I'm ingesting a substance. It feels good and I'm doing that at significant good and I'm doing that at significant good and I'm doing that at significant cost to myself and other people. We can cost to myself and other people. We can cost to myself and other people. We can also think about in childhood what would also think about in childhood what would also think about in childhood what would be called conduct disorder which are be called conduct disorder which are be called conduct disorder which are people who are children who are engaging people who are children who are engaging people who are children who are engaging in wrath. They're engaging in aggression in wrath. They're engaging in aggression in wrath. They're engaging in aggression towards other people that hurts other towards other people that hurts other towards other people that hurts other people, their parents, their teachers, people, their parents, their teachers, people, their parents, their teachers, their schools. The law is mad at them their schools. The law is mad at them their schools. The law is mad at them and they're doing it anyways. So, what and they're doing it anyways. So, what and they're doing it anyways. So, what we're interested in scientifically is um we're interested in scientifically is um we're interested in scientifically is um are there genes that affect the are there genes that affect the are there genes that affect the likelihood of developing these likelihood of developing these likelihood of developing these disorders? Yes. Um are there genetic disorders? Yes. Um are there genetic disorders? Yes. Um are there genetic overlaps between these different things? overlaps between these different things? overlaps between these different things? So, do the genes that um are the genes So, do the genes that um are the genes So, do the genes that um are the genes that make it more likely for you to that make it more likely for you to that make it more likely for you to become addicted to substances become addicted to substances become addicted to substances also make you more likely to have many also make you more likely to have many also make you more likely to have many sexual partners also make you more sexual partners also make you more sexual partners also make you more likely to engage in impulsive likely to engage in impulsive likely to engage in impulsive aggression? aggression? aggression? That also appears to be the question? That also appears to be the question? That also appears to be the question? Yes. And then if we're looking at genes Yes. And then if we're looking at genes Yes. And then if we're looking at genes that have these associations not just that have these associations not just that have these associations not just with substances or not just with sexual with substances or not just with sexual with substances or not just with sexual behavior or not just with aggression but behavior or not just with aggression but behavior or not just with aggression but have crosscutting effects on all of have crosscutting effects on all of have crosscutting effects on all of them. What are they like? What are those them. What are they like? What are those them. What are they like? What are those genes? Where are they where are they genes? Where are they where are they genes? Where are they where are they active in the brain? When are they active in the brain? When are they active in the brain? When are they expressed in development? So that's work expressed in development? So that's work expressed in development? So that's work that that our group has been doing for that that our group has been doing for that that our group has been doing for eight years now to try to discover what eight years now to try to discover what eight years now to try to discover what these genes we have a good idea from these genes we have a good idea from these genes we have a good idea from twin and adoption studies that there are twin and adoption studies that there are twin and adoption studies that there are genetic influences on these things and genetic influences on these things and genetic influences on these things and now we want to figure out what are they now we want to figure out what are they now we want to figure out what are they and where are they active in the brain and where are they active in the brain and where are they active in the brain and it turns out that it's not just and it turns out that it's not just and it turns out that it's not just hypothalamus it's really broadly hypothalamus it's really broadly hypothalamus it's really broadly distributed you know throughout your distributed you know throughout your distributed you know throughout your brain brain brain >> I'll update my messaging [laughter] >> I'll update my messaging [laughter] >> I'll update my messaging [laughter] and I did couch it as a hypothesis I I and I did couch it as a hypothesis I I and I did couch it as a hypothesis I I never said that there were you know that never said that there were you know that never said that there were you know that you could leion one of the the sins. you could leion one of the the sins. you could leion one of the the sins. There are genes that vary between There are genes that vary between There are genes that vary between individuals. individuals. individuals. >> That predict >> That predict >> That predict addiction, predict impulsivity, addiction, predict impulsivity, addiction, predict impulsivity, >> and other things. >> and other things. >> and other things. >> Um, you're exploring how the genes that >> Um, you're exploring how the genes that >> Um, you're exploring how the genes that predict addiction might predict predict addiction might predict predict addiction might predict impulsivity for other types of impulsivity for other types of impulsivity for other types of behaviors. behaviors. behaviors. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I think I heard that the answer is yes. >> I think I heard that the answer is yes. >> I think I heard that the answer is yes. Indeed, there's overlap. Indeed, there's overlap. Indeed, there's overlap. >> So, I'd be very curious to know what >> So, I'd be very curious to know what >> So, I'd be very curious to know what those genes encode for. But what are the those genes encode for. But what are the those genes encode for. But what are the protein systems and neural circuit protein systems and neural circuit protein systems and neural circuit systems, hormone systems downstream of systems, hormone systems downstream of systems, hormone systems downstream of those genes? those genes? those genes? >> Yeah, if we go back one step, just why >> Yeah, if we go back one step, just why >> Yeah, if we go back one step, just why did we think that there were going to be did we think that there were going to be did we think that there were going to be genes that overlap between this? The genes that overlap between this? The genes that overlap between this? The biggest biggest biggest um set of results that supported this um set of results that supported this um set of results that supported this hypothesis were adoption and pedigree hypothesis were adoption and pedigree hypothesis were adoption and pedigree studies. So these big data registries, studies. So these big data registries, studies. So these big data registries, you get them in Sweden, you get them in you get them in Sweden, you get them in you get them in Sweden, you get them in the Scandinavian countries that keep the Scandinavian countries that keep the Scandinavian countries that keep track of every single one of their track of every single one of their track of every single one of their citizens. And what you see is that the citizens. And what you see is that the citizens. And what you see is that the seven deadly sins run in families. So if seven deadly sins run in families. So if seven deadly sins run in families. So if you have an adoptive parent who's you have an adoptive parent who's you have an adoptive parent who's addicted to alcohol, you are more likely addicted to alcohol, you are more likely addicted to alcohol, you are more likely to have many sexual partners. And you're to have many sexual partners. And you're to have many sexual partners. And you're also more likely to be diagnosed with also more likely to be diagnosed with also more likely to be diagnosed with conduct disorder or um be arrested for a conduct disorder or um be arrested for a conduct disorder or um be arrested for a violent crime even if you were never violent crime even if you were never violent crime even if you were never raised by that parent. And it's not just raised by that parent. And it's not just raised by that parent. And it's not just substance use to substance use or substance use to substance use or substance use to substance use or violence to violence or you know risky violence to violence or you know risky violence to violence or you know risky sexual behavior to risky sexual sexual behavior to risky sexual sexual behavior to risky sexual behavior. It seems that having a family behavior. It seems that having a family behavior. It seems that having a family history of any of these things increases history of any of these things increases history of any of these things increases your likelihood of manifesting any one your likelihood of manifesting any one your likelihood of manifesting any one of them. So that's why we thought that of them. So that's why we thought that of them. So that's why we thought that there was this genetic commonality there was this genetic commonality there was this genetic commonality across them. Um so what we found is that across them. Um so what we found is that across them. Um so what we found is that there's many many many genes that affect there's many many many genes that affect there's many many many genes that affect all of these behaviors. It's massively all of these behaviors. It's massively all of these behaviors. It's massively what we call polygenic. So it's not just what we call polygenic. So it's not just what we call polygenic. So it's not just one thing in one part of your genome. one thing in one part of your genome. one thing in one part of your genome. It's distributed throughout your genome. It's distributed throughout your genome. It's distributed throughout your genome. And that those genes are most expressed And that those genes are most expressed And that those genes are most expressed in neurode development in uterero in in neurode development in uterero in in neurode development in uterero in second and third trimester. So if you if second and third trimester. So if you if second and third trimester. So if you if you look at genes that are associated you look at genes that are associated you look at genes that are associated with all of these things and you see with all of these things and you see with all of these things and you see okay when in the human lifespan are they okay when in the human lifespan are they okay when in the human lifespan are they most active? They're active during most active? They're active during most active? They're active during cortical development in the second and cortical development in the second and cortical development in the second and third trimester. So there's something third trimester. So there's something third trimester. So there's something very like early neurodedevelopmental very like early neurodedevelopmental very like early neurodedevelopmental that's going on there and it seems to be that's going on there and it seems to be that's going on there and it seems to be affecting the brain's balance of affecting the brain's balance of affecting the brain's balance of inhibition and excitation. So inhibition and excitation. So inhibition and excitation. So [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] as your brain is developing while you're as your brain is developing while you're as your brain is developing while you're in uterro the GABA system which is in uterro the GABA system which is in uterro the GABA system which is inhibitory and the glutamate system inhibitory and the glutamate system inhibitory and the glutamate system which is excitatory sort of being tuned which is excitatory sort of being tuned which is excitatory sort of being tuned like and the balance between those two like and the balance between those two like and the balance between those two things is um is being worked out. If things is um is being worked out. If things is um is being worked out. If children are born pre-term, part of the children are born pre-term, part of the children are born pre-term, part of the reason that that affects their reason that that affects their reason that that affects their psychological development negatively is psychological development negatively is psychological development negatively is because it affects this balance between because it affects this balance between because it affects this balance between inhibition and excitation. So I think inhibition and excitation. So I think inhibition and excitation. So I think we're still very at the beginning of we're still very at the beginning of we're still very at the beginning of this understanding the bioanitation of this understanding the bioanitation of this understanding the bioanitation of it, the biological mechanisms of it. Um, it, the biological mechanisms of it. Um, it, the biological mechanisms of it. Um, but what it suggests to us is that, you but what it suggests to us is that, you but what it suggests to us is that, you know, sometimes you hear like ADHD is a know, sometimes you hear like ADHD is a know, sometimes you hear like ADHD is a neurodedevelopmental disorder. I think neurodedevelopmental disorder. I think neurodedevelopmental disorder. I think that substance use disorders are every that substance use disorders are every that substance use disorders are every bit as a neurodedevelopmental disorder bit as a neurodedevelopmental disorder bit as a neurodedevelopmental disorder as ADHD. I think conduct disorder, which as ADHD. I think conduct disorder, which as ADHD. I think conduct disorder, which is characterized by impulsive is characterized by impulsive is characterized by impulsive aggression, is every bit a aggression, is every bit a aggression, is every bit a neurodedevelopmental disorder as ADHD. neurodedevelopmental disorder as ADHD. neurodedevelopmental disorder as ADHD. Because if you look at the genes that Because if you look at the genes that Because if you look at the genes that are causing them, they seem to be are causing them, they seem to be are causing them, they seem to be affecting this pattern of brain affecting this pattern of brain affecting this pattern of brain development very very early in life and development very very early in life and development very very early in life and this balance between the brain's this balance between the brain's this balance between the brain's inhibition and excitation. inhibition and excitation. inhibition and excitation. >> Fascinating. I mean, I have to be >> Fascinating. I mean, I have to be >> Fascinating. I mean, I have to be careful not to go down this rabbit hole, careful not to go down this rabbit hole, careful not to go down this rabbit hole, but I started off as a developmental but I started off as a developmental but I started off as a developmental neurobiologist. So, um, you know, fetal neurobiologist. So, um, you know, fetal neurobiologist. So, um, you know, fetal brain wiring is, uh, brain wiring is, uh, brain wiring is, uh, >> yeah, we've never really talked about it >> yeah, we've never really talked about it >> yeah, we've never really talked about it on this podcast, but it's we've talked on this podcast, but it's we've talked on this podcast, but it's we've talked about the effect of of fetal exposure to about the effect of of fetal exposure to about the effect of of fetal exposure to hormones. Yeah. hormones. Yeah. hormones. Yeah. >> Uh, in in the brain in particular, um, >> Uh, in in the brain in particular, um, >> Uh, in in the brain in particular, um, in terms of sexual differentiation, but in terms of sexual differentiation, but in terms of sexual differentiation, but >> yeah, there's a ton going on in there >> yeah, there's a ton going on in there >> yeah, there's a ton going on in there um, at these stages. And when I hear you um, at these stages. And when I hear you um, at these stages. And when I hear you talk broadly about um you know the talk broadly about um you know the talk broadly about um you know the balance between excitation and balance between excitation and balance between excitation and inhibition inhibition inhibition and some disruption in that or some and some disruption in that or some and some disruption in that or some alteration in that setting up a a a alteration in that setting up a a a alteration in that setting up a a a probability of the expression of some probability of the expression of some probability of the expression of some behavioral disorder or choice behavioral disorder or choice behavioral disorder or choice >> set of choices. It makes me wonder, you >> set of choices. It makes me wonder, you >> set of choices. It makes me wonder, you know, about brain function more more know, about brain function more more know, about brain function more more broadly is, you know, does that somehow broadly is, you know, does that somehow broadly is, you know, does that somehow make these choices to use a given make these choices to use a given make these choices to use a given substance or to do a impulsive behavior? substance or to do a impulsive behavior? substance or to do a impulsive behavior? Is it we have to be careful not to Is it we have to be careful not to Is it we have to be careful not to project, but is it an attempt to restore project, but is it an attempt to restore project, but is it an attempt to restore some sort of um order to that balance or some sort of um order to that balance or some sort of um order to that balance or is it an expression of of an imbalance is it an expression of of an imbalance is it an expression of of an imbalance system? It's just a seessaw that never system? It's just a seessaw that never system? It's just a seessaw that never that doesn't tilt all the way uh to one that doesn't tilt all the way uh to one that doesn't tilt all the way uh to one side or the other. I think that's a side or the other. I think that's a side or the other. I think that's a really good question and I don't know really good question and I don't know really good question and I don't know the answer to that. When you talk to the answer to that. When you talk to the answer to that. When you talk to people who are, you know, experiencing a people who are, you know, experiencing a people who are, you know, experiencing a substance use disorder, sometimes you substance use disorder, sometimes you substance use disorder, sometimes you hear narratives that are very much in hear narratives that are very much in hear narratives that are very much in this um kind of self-medication frame, this um kind of self-medication frame, this um kind of self-medication frame, right? Like I took this substance and it right? Like I took this substance and it right? Like I took this substance and it made me feel normal and I didn't feel made me feel normal and I didn't feel made me feel normal and I didn't feel normal before I had that. But that's not normal before I had that. But that's not normal before I had that. But that's not everyone. I mean, addiction is a very everyone. I mean, addiction is a very everyone. I mean, addiction is a very heterogeneous disorder. And so I think heterogeneous disorder. And so I think heterogeneous disorder. And so I think people's um perceptions of their people's um perceptions of their people's um perceptions of their motivations to engage in substance use motivations to engage in substance use motivations to engage in substance use that's harmful for them. And then how that's harmful for them. And then how that's harmful for them. And then how does that um relate to the brain does that um relate to the brain does that um relate to the brain mechanism and then how does that relate mechanism and then how does that relate mechanism and then how does that relate to early neurod development? I don't to early neurod development? I don't to early neurod development? I don't think we know you know the specifics of think we know you know the specifics of think we know you know the specifics of those links to the extent they exist. those links to the extent they exist. those links to the extent they exist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> My colleague Anna Lumpky who wrote to >> My colleague Anna Lumpky who wrote to >> My colleague Anna Lumpky who wrote to Nation Nation Nation >> Yeah. She once said that um many >> Yeah. She once said that um many >> Yeah. She once said that um many addicts, behavioral addictions, uh I addicts, behavioral addictions, uh I addicts, behavioral addictions, uh I guess they call them process addictions guess they call them process addictions guess they call them process addictions or chemical addictions, that they have or chemical addictions, that they have or chemical addictions, that they have this feeling that unless they're this feeling that unless they're this feeling that unless they're experiencing something really intense experiencing something really intense experiencing something really intense >> like life isn't really happening. Like >> like life isn't really happening. Like >> like life isn't really happening. Like they crave this intensity of experience. they crave this intensity of experience. they crave this intensity of experience. They want peak experience. They want peak experience. They want peak experience. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Either to numb themselves. I mean it >> Either to numb themselves. I mean it >> Either to numb themselves. I mean it could be a trough experience in the case could be a trough experience in the case could be a trough experience in the case of sedatives but um that stuck with me of sedatives but um that stuck with me of sedatives but um that stuck with me implied in that is that not everyone is implied in that is that not everyone is implied in that is that not everyone is seeking these um kind of extreme states seeking these um kind of extreme states seeking these um kind of extreme states and so layered on what you just and so layered on what you just and so layered on what you just described in terms of excitation described in terms of excitation described in terms of excitation inhibition balance I kind of wonder if inhibition balance I kind of wonder if inhibition balance I kind of wonder if um if people who struggle with addiction um if people who struggle with addiction um if people who struggle with addiction are um they're craving getting out of are um they're craving getting out of are um they're craving getting out of too much inhibition or too much too much inhibition or too much too much inhibition or too much excitation in but this is probably an excitation in but this is probably an excitation in but this is probably an overly simplistic hypothesis overly simplistic hypothesis overly simplistic hypothesis >> so just thinking about the that >> so just thinking about the that >> so just thinking about the that sensation seeking anything that driving sensation seeking anything that driving sensation seeking anything that driving for intensity. Usually when we when we for intensity. Usually when we when we for intensity. Usually when we when we think of people who um are chronically think of people who um are chronically think of people who um are chronically engaging in some behavior despite it engaging in some behavior despite it engaging in some behavior despite it having negative consequences for having negative consequences for having negative consequences for themselves and other people. So this themselves and other people. So this themselves and other people. So this could be drug use, this could be could be drug use, this could be could be drug use, this could be aggression, this could be risky sexual aggression, this could be risky sexual aggression, this could be risky sexual behavior. Um we can typically think of behavior. Um we can typically think of behavior. Um we can typically think of three dimensions of sort of personality three dimensions of sort of personality three dimensions of sort of personality and temperament um that are often at and temperament um that are often at and temperament um that are often at play. And one of them is this sensation play. And one of them is this sensation play. And one of them is this sensation seeking drive for intensity. So I want seeking drive for intensity. So I want seeking drive for intensity. So I want it, I want it and I want a lot of it, it, I want it and I want a lot of it, it, I want it and I want a lot of it, right? And then one is this right? And then one is this right? And then one is this disinhibition disinhibition disinhibition um failure of self-control. Um I can't um failure of self-control. Um I can't um failure of self-control. Um I can't stop myself. And then another which I stop myself. And then another which I stop myself. And then another which I think is less wellstudied is what people think is less wellstudied is what people think is less wellstudied is what people call antagonism or callousness which is call antagonism or callousness which is call antagonism or callousness which is um I know this has uh negative um I know this has uh negative um I know this has uh negative consequences for other people but I consequences for other people but I consequences for other people but I don't really care like that doesn't don't really care like that doesn't don't really care like that doesn't bother me. And I think what you see is bother me. And I think what you see is bother me. And I think what you see is that the the combination of factors that that the the combination of factors that that the the combination of factors that goes into any one person's behavior can goes into any one person's behavior can goes into any one person's behavior can really vary. So for some people it's really vary. So for some people it's really vary. So for some people it's like this feels great, this feels good. like this feels great, this feels good. like this feels great, this feels good. I want the high. I want it to be I want the high. I want it to be I want the high. I want it to be intense. I'm not disinhibited. I'm intense. I'm not disinhibited. I'm intense. I'm not disinhibited. I'm deliberately seeking out this behavior. deliberately seeking out this behavior. deliberately seeking out this behavior. You know, I plan the drugs that I'm You know, I plan the drugs that I'm You know, I plan the drugs that I'm going to use for the club the whole week going to use for the club the whole week going to use for the club the whole week and I plan my week afterwards. It's not and I plan my week afterwards. It's not and I plan my week afterwards. It's not it's not disinhibited at all. It's very it's not disinhibited at all. It's very it's not disinhibited at all. It's very purposeful. And then there are people purposeful. And then there are people purposeful. And then there are people that are like, I wasn't planning, but that are like, I wasn't planning, but that are like, I wasn't planning, but now I'm at the club and someone offered now I'm at the club and someone offered now I'm at the club and someone offered this to me and I can't stop myself. And this to me and I can't stop myself. And this to me and I can't stop myself. And then other people are like, I'm not I then other people are like, I'm not I then other people are like, I'm not I like it. Okay. and I could stop myself, like it. Okay. and I could stop myself, like it. Okay. and I could stop myself, but these negative con consequences that but these negative con consequences that but these negative con consequences that people keep harping on, you know, the people keep harping on, you know, the people keep harping on, you know, the fact that my partner doesn't like this fact that my partner doesn't like this fact that my partner doesn't like this or the police don't like this, or the police don't like this, or the police don't like this, like, oh, you know, I'm indifferent, like, oh, you know, I'm indifferent, like, oh, you know, I'm indifferent, right? And so, um, all of that to say, I right? And so, um, all of that to say, I right? And so, um, all of that to say, I think I think we need to be aware of the think I think we need to be aware of the think I think we need to be aware of the complexity and the heterogeneity of of complexity and the heterogeneity of of complexity and the heterogeneity of of different people's motivations when different people's motivations when different people's motivations when they're doing these behaviors. they're doing these behaviors. they're doing these behaviors. >> Yeah. And these days we hear a lot about >> Yeah. And these days we hear a lot about >> Yeah. And these days we hear a lot about um the role of trauma in addiction. I um the role of trauma in addiction. I um the role of trauma in addiction. I mean I can't do a single post or podcast mean I can't do a single post or podcast mean I can't do a single post or podcast about addiction about addiction about addiction >> and the biology and um and not hear well >> and the biology and um and not hear well >> and the biology and um and not hear well it's trauma related. But of course genes it's trauma related. But of course genes it's trauma related. But of course genes come from our parents. We'll talk about come from our parents. We'll talk about come from our parents. We'll talk about that irritability. Um and so that irritability. Um and so that irritability. Um and so generational trauma or or just childhood generational trauma or or just childhood generational trauma or or just childhood trauma doesn't even have to be trauma doesn't even have to be trauma doesn't even have to be transgenerational. transgenerational. transgenerational. It can get layered in there in a It can get layered in there in a It can get layered in there in a complicated way. Yes. And I'm not trying complicated way. Yes. And I'm not trying complicated way. Yes. And I'm not trying to say that trauma doesn't play a role. to say that trauma doesn't play a role. to say that trauma doesn't play a role. Clearly, it does. But it seems that Clearly, it does. But it seems that Clearly, it does. But it seems that genes could be primary. Trauma in the genes could be primary. Trauma in the genes could be primary. Trauma in the parents, trauma in the children, parents, trauma in the children, parents, trauma in the children, traumatizing, you know, hurt people hurt traumatizing, you know, hurt people hurt traumatizing, you know, hurt people hurt people kind of, you know, it's the the people kind of, you know, it's the the people kind of, you know, it's the the one cliche that seems to, you know, one cliche that seems to, you know, one cliche that seems to, you know, stand the test of time. stand the test of time. stand the test of time. >> Yeah. I think it's very hard to say that >> Yeah. I think it's very hard to say that >> Yeah. I think it's very hard to say that something is primary or secondary something is primary or secondary something is primary or secondary because everything's interacting with because everything's interacting with because everything's interacting with everything else. One of the scientific everything else. One of the scientific everything else. One of the scientific challenges and then also one of the very challenges and then also one of the very challenges and then also one of the very human tragedies that we often see is human tragedies that we often see is human tragedies that we often see is that the parents who have genetic risks that the parents who have genetic risks that the parents who have genetic risks who are passing those on to their kids who are passing those on to their kids who are passing those on to their kids are also the caregivers for those kids. are also the caregivers for those kids. are also the caregivers for those kids. And so the kids who would most benefit And so the kids who would most benefit And so the kids who would most benefit from from from firm, warm, stable, nurturing parenting firm, warm, stable, nurturing parenting firm, warm, stable, nurturing parenting are also the least likely to get it are also the least likely to get it are also the least likely to get it because the parents themselves are also because the parents themselves are also because the parents themselves are also dealing with their own stuff and they're dealing with their own stuff and they're dealing with their own stuff and they're also leading their own complicated also leading their own complicated also leading their own complicated lives. And so it's a tapestry like lives. And so it's a tapestry like lives. And so it's a tapestry like there's a warp and a weft to a piece of there's a warp and a weft to a piece of there's a warp and a weft to a piece of cloth. There's the threads that go this cloth. There's the threads that go this cloth. There's the threads that go this way and this way. And um I think that's way and this way. And um I think that's way and this way. And um I think that's how I think about the relationship how I think about the relationship how I think about the relationship between genes and trauma early between genes and trauma early between genes and trauma early experience is that really they both are experience is that really they both are experience is that really they both are woven together to build woven together to build woven together to build the brain and the body and the the brain and the body and the the brain and the body and the personality that then struggles with personality that then struggles with personality that then struggles with these behaviors later on in their life. these behaviors later on in their life. these behaviors later on in their life. So if we were to have access to our So if we were to have access to our So if we were to have access to our genomes heading into uh adolescence or genomes heading into uh adolescence or genomes heading into uh adolescence or to our kids to our kids to our kids >> uh genomes um and we know based on your >> uh genomes um and we know based on your >> uh genomes um and we know based on your work and the work of others presumably work and the work of others presumably work and the work of others presumably that some of the genes that predispose that some of the genes that predispose that some of the genes that predispose to impulsive behavior, addictive to impulsive behavior, addictive to impulsive behavior, addictive behavior, promiscuity etc. Um that would behavior, promiscuity etc. Um that would behavior, promiscuity etc. Um that would be useful information I would think. be useful information I would think. be useful information I would think. Right? Then one could think carefully Right? Then one could think carefully Right? Then one could think carefully about friend choices, situational about friend choices, situational about friend choices, situational choices, install buffers. You know, it choices, install buffers. You know, it choices, install buffers. You know, it sounds sounds so mechanical, but you sounds sounds so mechanical, but you sounds sounds so mechanical, but you know, have people around who can help know, have people around who can help know, have people around who can help buffer against this these genetic buffer against this these genetic buffer against this these genetic predispositions which no doubt, as you predispositions which no doubt, as you predispositions which no doubt, as you just said, weave into um situational just said, weave into um situational just said, weave into um situational predispositions. predispositions. predispositions. >> Why don't people want that information? >> Why don't people want that information? >> Why don't people want that information? Or do they want that information? Or do they want that information? Or do they want that information? Because I remember in the 80s hearing, Because I remember in the 80s hearing, Because I remember in the 80s hearing, oh, you know, soon we're gonna have oh, you know, soon we're gonna have oh, you know, soon we're gonna have genomes and you can know if you're going genomes and you can know if you're going genomes and you can know if you're going to get Huntington's. to get Huntington's. to get Huntington's. >> Yeah. this, you know, very destructive >> Yeah. this, you know, very destructive >> Yeah. this, you know, very destructive degenerative disorder. And and then degenerative disorder. And and then degenerative disorder. And and then people said, well, I wouldn't want to people said, well, I wouldn't want to people said, well, I wouldn't want to know. I I mean, I think many people know. I I mean, I think many people know. I I mean, I think many people would also want to know and especially would also want to know and especially would also want to know and especially parents, you know, if they can just get parents, you know, if they can just get parents, you know, if they can just get past their guilt that it has something past their guilt that it has something past their guilt that it has something to do with them, I think they'd want to to do with them, I think they'd want to to do with them, I think they'd want to help their kids uh avoid these help their kids uh avoid these help their kids uh avoid these predispositions given that most of what predispositions given that most of what predispositions given that most of what we're talking about are maladaptive we're talking about are maladaptive we're talking about are maladaptive predispositions. So this is a predispositions. So this is a predispositions. So this is a complicated and really rapidly growing complicated and really rapidly growing complicated and really rapidly growing area of research which is what happens area of research which is what happens area of research which is what happens if you return people's genetic if you return people's genetic if you return people's genetic information back to them. So if you have information back to them. So if you have information back to them. So if you have ever done 23 and me or some sort of ever done 23 and me or some sort of ever done 23 and me or some sort of direct to consumer genetics company you direct to consumer genetics company you direct to consumer genetics company you might have gotten like this is your might have gotten like this is your might have gotten like this is your genetic risk for Crohn's disease or this genetic risk for Crohn's disease or this genetic risk for Crohn's disease or this is your genetic risk for Parkinson's or is your genetic risk for Parkinson's or is your genetic risk for Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. Um and now there are more Alzheimer's. Um and now there are more Alzheimer's. Um and now there are more companies that are expanding into that companies that are expanding into that companies that are expanding into that genetic information around genetic information around genetic information around um many gene indices. We call them um many gene indices. We call them um many gene indices. We call them polygenic indices or polygenic scores polygenic indices or polygenic scores polygenic indices or polygenic scores that are correlated with someone's risk that are correlated with someone's risk that are correlated with someone's risk for developing an alcohol use disorder. for developing an alcohol use disorder. for developing an alcohol use disorder. Say I think there's a couple things to Say I think there's a couple things to Say I think there's a couple things to keep in mind here. One is that the our keep in mind here. One is that the our keep in mind here. One is that the our genetic information is rapidly genetic information is rapidly genetic information is rapidly improving. improving. improving. it's still not very good at the level of it's still not very good at the level of it's still not very good at the level of predicting an outcome for an individual. predicting an outcome for an individual. predicting an outcome for an individual. So, um, as an example, you can think So, um, as an example, you can think So, um, as an example, you can think cities that are at higher altitude tend cities that are at higher altitude tend cities that are at higher altitude tend to be colder. Like that's a correlation. to be colder. Like that's a correlation. to be colder. Like that's a correlation. That's a correlation of around 04.5. That's a correlation of around 04.5. That's a correlation of around 04.5. You can know that if you're trying to You can know that if you're trying to You can know that if you're trying to think about, okay, well, which cities think about, okay, well, which cities think about, okay, well, which cities are colder on average than others. are colder on average than others. are colder on average than others. That's not going to tell you do you need That's not going to tell you do you need That's not going to tell you do you need to pack a sweater if you're going to to pack a sweater if you're going to to pack a sweater if you're going to Montreal next Tuesday, right? Like Montreal next Tuesday, right? Like Montreal next Tuesday, right? Like that's a specific weather incident. that's a specific weather incident. that's a specific weather incident. Polygenic scores right now are like I Polygenic scores right now are like I Polygenic scores right now are like I can tell you that you know on in general can tell you that you know on in general can tell you that you know on in general like these people have a higher risk like these people have a higher risk like these people have a higher risk than these people, but they're not than these people, but they're not than these people, but they're not they're not a pregnancy test or even a they're not a pregnancy test or even a they're not a pregnancy test or even a Huntington's disease test. They're not Huntington's disease test. They're not Huntington's disease test. They're not prognosticators of like an individual prognosticators of like an individual prognosticators of like an individual person's risk for an alcohol use person's risk for an alcohol use person's risk for an alcohol use disorder. there's some uncertainty disorder. there's some uncertainty disorder. there's some uncertainty there. [snorts] The other question is there. [snorts] The other question is there. [snorts] The other question is what are the ethics of telling someone what are the ethics of telling someone what are the ethics of telling someone that they have a low genetic risk, that they have a low genetic risk, that they have a low genetic risk, especially if we're uncertain about especially if we're uncertain about especially if we're uncertain about that. Like you've talked a lot about that. Like you've talked a lot about that. Like you've talked a lot about how, you know, no alcohol on average is how, you know, no alcohol on average is how, you know, no alcohol on average is better for you than some alcohol. better for you than some alcohol. better for you than some alcohol. We think about the risks of telling We think about the risks of telling We think about the risks of telling someone that they're genetically someone that they're genetically someone that they're genetically predisposed towards a negative life predisposed towards a negative life predisposed towards a negative life outcome. But there's also risk to outcome. But there's also risk to outcome. But there's also risk to telling someone that they're not telling someone that they're not telling someone that they're not genetically proposed because is that genetically proposed because is that genetically proposed because is that going to are they going to interpret going to are they going to interpret going to are they going to interpret that as license to drink more? I don't that as license to drink more? I don't that as license to drink more? I don't need to worry about that. I need I don't need to worry about that. I need I don't need to worry about that. I need I don't need to worry about my consumption need to worry about my consumption need to worry about my consumption because this company told me that I'm at because this company told me that I'm at because this company told me that I'm at low risk. And then the other thing low risk. And then the other thing low risk. And then the other thing you're picking up on is that there are you're picking up on is that there are you're picking up on is that there are individual differences in desire for individual differences in desire for individual differences in desire for kind of deliberate ignorance. So there kind of deliberate ignorance. So there kind of deliberate ignorance. So there was a great study after the wall came was a great study after the wall came was a great study after the wall came down in Berlin that was um conducted on down in Berlin that was um conducted on down in Berlin that was um conducted on whether or not people want to know the whether or not people want to know the whether or not people want to know the contents of their files, like who was contents of their files, like who was contents of their files, like who was reporting on them. And some people were reporting on them. And some people were reporting on them. And some people were like, "Of course I want to know. Of like, "Of course I want to know. Of like, "Of course I want to know. Of course I want to know who was saying course I want to know who was saying course I want to know who was saying what about me." And other people were what about me." And other people were what about me." And other people were saying, "No, I don't. Deliberate saying, "No, I don't. Deliberate saying, "No, I don't. Deliberate ignorance. Ignorance is bliss. ignorance. Ignorance is bliss. ignorance. Ignorance is bliss. Deliberate ignorance is what I want. Deliberate ignorance is what I want. Deliberate ignorance is what I want. >> This is what other people were saying >> This is what other people were saying >> This is what other people were saying about them." about them." about them." >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Don't read the comments. Yeah, >> Don't read the comments. Yeah, >> Don't read the comments. Yeah, deliberate ignorance. No, read the deliberate ignorance. No, read the deliberate ignorance. No, read the comments. It's also a form of deliberate comments. It's also a form of deliberate comments. It's also a form of deliberate ignorance. ignorance. ignorance. >> This is like an avid debate between >> This is like an avid debate between >> This is like an avid debate between podcasters. You know, Rogan is the Mr. podcasters. You know, Rogan is the Mr. podcasters. You know, Rogan is the Mr. Don't Don't read the comments. Lex Don't Don't read the comments. Lex Don't Don't read the comments. Lex Freriedman and I go back and forth on Freriedman and I go back and forth on Freriedman and I go back and forth on this this this >> on guarding the comments. >> on guarding the comments. >> on guarding the comments. >> I [clears throat] mean, yeah, it can be >> I [clears throat] mean, yeah, it can be >> I [clears throat] mean, yeah, it can be useful. useful. useful. >> So, all of that to say, I think we're in >> So, all of that to say, I think we're in >> So, all of that to say, I think we're in a situation which the science is rapidly a situation which the science is rapidly a situation which the science is rapidly developing. It's not nearly at a point developing. It's not nearly at a point developing. It's not nearly at a point where it's going to be a a high where it's going to be a a high where it's going to be a a high confidence predictor. There's also risks confidence predictor. There's also risks confidence predictor. There's also risks to being told that you have a low, you to being told that you have a low, you to being told that you have a low, you know, a low genetic risk because it know, a low genetic risk because it know, a low genetic risk because it might act as a permission structure for might act as a permission structure for might act as a permission structure for behavior that might ultimately prove to behavior that might ultimately prove to behavior that might ultimately prove to be risky. And also, people's be risky. And also, people's be risky. And also, people's psychologies are complicated and not psychologies are complicated and not psychologies are complicated and not everyone responds to more information as everyone responds to more information as everyone responds to more information as a good thing. Not everyone wants to read a good thing. Not everyone wants to read a good thing. Not everyone wants to read the comments of their DNA. This isn't a the comments of their DNA. This isn't a the comments of their DNA. This isn't a push back, but I feel like most people, push back, but I feel like most people, push back, but I feel like most people, even if they don't understand genes even if they don't understand genes even if they don't understand genes inheritability, inheritability, inheritability, understand that they got their genes understand that they got their genes understand that they got their genes from their parents. from their parents. from their parents. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, there is an argument to be made >> So, there is an argument to be made >> So, there is an argument to be made perhaps that people are already doing perhaps that people are already doing perhaps that people are already doing this. Like someone whose father was an this. Like someone whose father was an this. Like someone whose father was an alcoholic, whose grandfather was an alcoholic, whose grandfather was an alcoholic, whose grandfather was an alcoholic, alcoholic, alcoholic, >> could say, "Well, >> could say, "Well, >> could say, "Well, >> yeah, I got to be really careful because >> yeah, I got to be really careful because >> yeah, I got to be really careful because obviously this runs in my family, obviously this runs in my family, obviously this runs in my family, right?" And then someone say, "Well, right?" And then someone say, "Well, right?" And then someone say, "Well, your mom doesn't have an issue with your mom doesn't have an issue with your mom doesn't have an issue with alcohol. She could have a couple drinks, alcohol. She could have a couple drinks, alcohol. She could have a couple drinks, no big deal. So, you're protected and we no big deal. So, you're protected and we no big deal. So, you're protected and we don't know how gene dosing protects us don't know how gene dosing protects us don't know how gene dosing protects us or makes us vulnerable. No one knows, or makes us vulnerable. No one knows, or makes us vulnerable. No one knows, but we all but we all but we all >> we all do this. Yes. >> we all do this. Yes. >> we all do this. Yes. >> Yes, I think we do. >> Yes, I think we do. >> Yes, I think we do. >> I mean, we'll get into discussions about >> I mean, we'll get into discussions about >> I mean, we'll get into discussions about genes inheritability, but you know that genes inheritability, but you know that genes inheritability, but you know that that like the topic of of eugenics and that like the topic of of eugenics and that like the topic of of eugenics and genetic selection with even within genetic selection with even within genetic selection with even within embryos is super dicey nowadays. embryos is super dicey nowadays. embryos is super dicey nowadays. Everyone's, you know, like you know, Everyone's, you know, like you know, Everyone's, you know, like you know, it's so scary to even have the it's so scary to even have the it's so scary to even have the discussion. But then I've always said, I discussion. But then I've always said, I discussion. But then I've always said, I mean, mean, mean, >> people do a kind of genetic selection. >> people do a kind of genetic selection. >> people do a kind of genetic selection. They pick sperm donors and they pick They pick sperm donors and they pick They pick sperm donors and they pick partners. partners. partners. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Often times based on a combination of >> Often times based on a combination of >> Often times based on a combination of traits which are clearly involve genes, traits which are clearly involve genes, traits which are clearly involve genes, you know, so people are doing a genetic you know, so people are doing a genetic you know, so people are doing a genetic selection in partner choice selection in partner choice selection in partner choice >> anyway. And so to me, maybe it's just >> anyway. And so to me, maybe it's just >> anyway. And so to me, maybe it's just the scientist in me, the conversation the scientist in me, the conversation the scientist in me, the conversation feels unnecessarily scary. But when it feels unnecessarily scary. But when it feels unnecessarily scary. But when it comes to things like substance use comes to things like substance use comes to things like substance use disorder, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. disorder, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. disorder, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. I think it makes sense to look at your I think it makes sense to look at your I think it makes sense to look at your parents and say, "Listen, if one of them parents and say, "Listen, if one of them parents and say, "Listen, if one of them has a an an issue with alcohol or both has a an an issue with alcohol or both has a an an issue with alcohol or both of them have an issue with alcohol, I of them have an issue with alcohol, I of them have an issue with alcohol, I have to be very careful with alcohol." have to be very careful with alcohol." have to be very careful with alcohol." >> And with your children too, right? I >> And with your children too, right? I >> And with your children too, right? I think as parents, at least as a mother, think as parents, at least as a mother, think as parents, at least as a mother, I look at my kids and I think they don't I look at my kids and I think they don't I look at my kids and I think they don't have the same temperament. They don't have the same temperament. They don't have the same temperament. They don't have the same personality. Um, I think have the same personality. Um, I think have the same personality. Um, I think the risks of cannabis use is different the risks of cannabis use is different the risks of cannabis use is different for my son and for my daughter. And so I for my son and for my daughter. And so I for my son and for my daughter. And so I think an attuned parent is going to be think an attuned parent is going to be think an attuned parent is going to be thinking about what do I know about my thinking about what do I know about my thinking about what do I know about my kid as they go into adolescence? How kid as they go into adolescence? How kid as they go into adolescence? How does that inform how I'm helping shape does that inform how I'm helping shape does that inform how I'm helping shape their environment? their environment? their environment? >> I think what you're picking up here is >> I think what you're picking up here is >> I think what you're picking up here is that oftentimes people treat genetic that oftentimes people treat genetic that oftentimes people treat genetic information as if it exists in a vacuum information as if it exists in a vacuum information as if it exists in a vacuum and it's the only thing we know about a and it's the only thing we know about a and it's the only thing we know about a person. And that's obviously not true. person. And that's obviously not true. person. And that's obviously not true. There are phenotypes that we see in our There are phenotypes that we see in our There are phenotypes that we see in our family members, in our perspective family members, in our perspective family members, in our perspective mates, in our children. And most of the mates, in our children. And most of the mates, in our children. And most of the research can also act as if you would be research can also act as if you would be research can also act as if you would be returning genetic information um about a returning genetic information um about a returning genetic information um about a child or about a person to that person child or about a person to that person child or about a person to that person and it's the only thing that they know and it's the only thing that they know and it's the only thing that they know and that's not true. Um, so I think that and that's not true. Um, so I think that and that's not true. Um, so I think that we really are at a place where we need we really are at a place where we need we really are at a place where we need more meta-cience, science about the more meta-cience, science about the more meta-cience, science about the science in what is the most responsible science in what is the most responsible science in what is the most responsible way to give people access to their way to give people access to their way to give people access to their genetic information in a way that genetic information in a way that genetic information in a way that permits them to make the best choices. permits them to make the best choices. permits them to make the best choices. But we're not going to be able to do But we're not going to be able to do But we're not going to be able to do that if we're continuing to pretend that that if we're continuing to pretend that that if we're continuing to pretend that genetic information exists somehow genetic information exists somehow genetic information exists somehow siloed from all the other things that siloed from all the other things that siloed from all the other things that people are paying attention to when people are paying attention to when people are paying attention to when they're observing themselves and their they're observing themselves and their they're observing themselves and their family members. family members. family members. >> If you're a regular listener of the >> If you're a regular listener of the >> If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral heard me talk about the vitamin mineral heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1. 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I feel like the more information we have about our more information we have about our more information we have about our parents and their parents parents and their parents parents and their parents >> and their positive traits and their, >> and their positive traits and their, >> and their positive traits and their, let's just call them maladaptive, let's just call them maladaptive, let's just call them maladaptive, destructive traits to themselves or to destructive traits to themselves or to destructive traits to themselves or to others, the more informed our choices others, the more informed our choices others, the more informed our choices can be. But I do understand that it can can be. But I do understand that it can can be. But I do understand that it can start to set up some constraints in our start to set up some constraints in our start to set up some constraints in our mind of what we are capable of or not mind of what we are capable of or not mind of what we are capable of or not capable of. capable of. capable of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I also feel like especially in the >> But I also feel like especially in the >> But I also feel like especially in the United States, there's this notion that United States, there's this notion that United States, there's this notion that we can become anything. we can become anything. we can become anything. >> It wasn't until I was in a relationship >> It wasn't until I was in a relationship >> It wasn't until I was in a relationship with somebody from Southern Europe that with somebody from Southern Europe that with somebody from Southern Europe that I realized that that notion growing up I realized that that notion growing up I realized that that notion growing up with that with that with that >> is kind of outrageous to some people in >> is kind of outrageous to some people in >> is kind of outrageous to some people in the world because in a lot of areas of the world because in a lot of areas of the world because in a lot of areas of the world, as you know, people get the world, as you know, people get the world, as you know, people get siloed really early on. Um, and they not siloed really early on. Um, and they not siloed really early on. Um, and they not everyone grows up thinking they could be everyone grows up thinking they could be everyone grows up thinking they could be an amazing athlete if they chose that an amazing athlete if they chose that an amazing athlete if they chose that path. path. path. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They could be a billionaire if they >> They could be a billionaire if they >> They could be a billionaire if they chose that path. You know, they could, chose that path. You know, they could, chose that path. You know, they could, but in the United States, we love this but in the United States, we love this but in the United States, we love this notion of anyone can get to any position notion of anyone can get to any position notion of anyone can get to any position if they just work hard enough and if they just work hard enough and if they just work hard enough and believe in themselves and align with the believe in themselves and align with the believe in themselves and align with the right people. right people. right people. >> So, I think that you think of it >> So, I think that you think of it >> So, I think that you think of it probably as, you know, another source of probably as, you know, another source of probably as, you know, another source of data. And isn't more data better? Like, data. And isn't more data better? Like, data. And isn't more data better? Like, isn't we we improve our decision-m when isn't we we improve our decision-m when isn't we we improve our decision-m when we have more variables at hand? we have more variables at hand? we have more variables at hand? um that's a very scientific way to think um that's a very scientific way to think um that's a very scientific way to think about genetic information. about genetic information. about genetic information. Whereas I think for many people in the Whereas I think for many people in the Whereas I think for many people in the broader public there can be a temptation broader public there can be a temptation broader public there can be a temptation to see genes as a very special sort of to see genes as a very special sort of to see genes as a very special sort of information. There's a genetic has information. There's a genetic has information. There's a genetic has a myth around it that maybe this is my a myth around it that maybe this is my a myth around it that maybe this is my data on my heart rate variability data on my heart rate variability data on my heart rate variability doesn't have about it. I I often I think doesn't have about it. I I often I think doesn't have about it. I I often I think that people can fall into these really that people can fall into these really that people can fall into these really essentialist stories about genetics that essentialist stories about genetics that essentialist stories about genetics that it's telling them something about their it's telling them something about their it's telling them something about their like their deepest or truest selves. like their deepest or truest selves. like their deepest or truest selves. Um and that's when the delivery of Um and that's when the delivery of Um and that's when the delivery of genetic information without correcting genetic information without correcting genetic information without correcting their perception of what genes are their perception of what genes are their perception of what genes are really telling us can start to be really telling us can start to be really telling us can start to be dangerous. I mean I think about 23 and dangerous. I mean I think about 23 and dangerous. I mean I think about 23 and me their tagline for many years was me their tagline for many years was me their tagline for many years was welcome to you spit in this tube. welcome to you spit in this tube. welcome to you spit in this tube. welcome to you, right? That we are going welcome to you, right? That we are going welcome to you, right? That we are going to give we are not just going to give to give we are not just going to give to give we are not just going to give you another piece of information about you another piece of information about you another piece of information about yourself to add to all the things that yourself to add to all the things that yourself to add to all the things that you could be using. We are going to tell you could be using. We are going to tell you could be using. We are going to tell you who you really are. And it's when you who you really are. And it's when you who you really are. And it's when the genetic information lapses into the genetic information lapses into the genetic information lapses into these more essentialist stories that I these more essentialist stories that I these more essentialist stories that I think things get to be, in your words, a think things get to be, in your words, a think things get to be, in your words, a little bit thornier, a little bit little bit thornier, a little bit little bit thornier, a little bit riskier. riskier. riskier. >> I never did 23 and me, but um they were >> I never did 23 and me, but um they were >> I never did 23 and me, but um they were just right up the road, but somehow just right up the road, but somehow just right up the road, but somehow never did it. But I did hear that one of never did it. But I did hear that one of never did it. But I did hear that one of the surprising uh results of 23 andme the surprising uh results of 23 andme the surprising uh results of 23 andme and companies like it was that um a not and companies like it was that um a not and companies like it was that um a not insignificant number of uh people insignificant number of uh people insignificant number of uh people discovered they have relatives that they discovered they have relatives that they discovered they have relatives that they didn't know they had. didn't know they had. didn't know they had. >> Yes. Or that their father isn't the >> Yes. Or that their father isn't the >> Yes. Or that their father isn't the father that they thought they had, father that they thought they had, father that they thought they had, >> which is a pretty major psychological >> which is a pretty major psychological >> which is a pretty major psychological frame shift. frame shift. frame shift. >> Yeah. I gave a talk at a college, a >> Yeah. I gave a talk at a college, a >> Yeah. I gave a talk at a college, a small college. Um, and it was a writing small college. Um, and it was a writing small college. Um, and it was a writing class and they had to write about a book class and they had to write about a book class and they had to write about a book and they chose my book to write about, and they chose my book to write about, and they chose my book to write about, which is great. It's like, you know, which is great. It's like, you know, which is great. It's like, you know, freshman and they all have to actually freshman and they all have to actually freshman and they all have to actually write something and they chose a book write something and they chose a book write something and they chose a book that was deliberately, you know, a that was deliberately, you know, a that was deliberately, you know, a little bit controversial to give them little bit controversial to give them little bit controversial to give them something to push off on. And I asked something to push off on. And I asked something to push off on. And I asked him, I said, "Why? How, you know, you're him, I said, "Why? How, you know, you're him, I said, "Why? How, you know, you're writing professor, how did you find my writing professor, how did you find my writing professor, how did you find my book?" And he said, "Well, I did 23 and book?" And he said, "Well, I did 23 and book?" And he said, "Well, I did 23 and me." And I realized that my the man who me." And I realized that my the man who me." And I realized that my the man who raised me is not my biological father. raised me is not my biological father. raised me is not my biological father. My parents didn't know this. It was our My parents didn't know this. It was our My parents didn't know this. It was our fertility doctor who was my biological fertility doctor who was my biological fertility doctor who was my biological father. And I have something like 26 father. And I have something like 26 father. And I have something like 26 half siblings cuz this guy had been half siblings cuz this guy had been half siblings cuz this guy had been doing it in his practice for years. He's doing it in his practice for years. He's doing it in his practice for years. He's now the doctor is now deceased. And I now the doctor is now deceased. And I now the doctor is now deceased. And I just was like that's so much more just was like that's so much more just was like that's so much more interesting than I'm going to talk about interesting than I'm going to talk about interesting than I'm going to talk about like anything I'm going to talk about like anything I'm going to talk about like anything I'm going to talk about with these freshmen. story and that um with these freshmen. story and that um with these freshmen. story and that um and I think that speaks to he had a and I think that speaks to he had a and I think that speaks to he had a whole narrative about his life and his whole narrative about his life and his whole narrative about his life and his family and then he got this piece of family and then he got this piece of family and then he got this piece of genetic information and it blew that genetic information and it blew that genetic information and it blew that story out of the water because it there story out of the water because it there story out of the water because it there was something about the genetic lineage was something about the genetic lineage was something about the genetic lineage that is really important to our sense of that is really important to our sense of that is really important to our sense of of who we are and he really had to of who we are and he really had to of who we are and he really had to reconstruct you know his family story reconstruct you know his family story reconstruct you know his family story and his identity in the light of that and his identity in the light of that and his identity in the light of that information. information. information. It's so interesting because I've heard It's so interesting because I've heard It's so interesting because I've heard of people learning something of people learning something of people learning something unfortunate, bad about their grandparent unfortunate, bad about their grandparent unfortunate, bad about their grandparent or parent that they weren't aware of and or parent that they weren't aware of and or parent that they weren't aware of and then internalizing that somehow they are then internalizing that somehow they are then internalizing that somehow they are bad. bad. bad. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Especially young kids can internalize >> Especially young kids can internalize >> Especially young kids can internalize that message. that message. that message. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is a a message to all people who >> This is a a message to all people who >> This is a a message to all people who may end up divorced. Don't badmouth the may end up divorced. Don't badmouth the may end up divorced. Don't badmouth the the other parent because you're the other parent because you're the other parent because you're essentially telling your kids that they essentially telling your kids that they essentially telling your kids that they come from bad they there's badness in come from bad they there's badness in come from bad they there's badness in them. them. them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and and we all think that this >> You know, and and we all think that this >> You know, and and we all think that this is about people's behavior, but but my is about people's behavior, but but my is about people's behavior, but but my understanding of spend a little bit of understanding of spend a little bit of understanding of spend a little bit of time with this literature just how time with this literature just how time with this literature just how people interpret information and how people interpret information and how people interpret information and how kids interpret information is that they kids interpret information is that they kids interpret information is that they like oh like I come from something bad like oh like I come from something bad like oh like I come from something bad and there's actually I mean there's all and there's actually I mean there's all and there's actually I mean there's all these movies about this. Star Wars has these movies about this. Star Wars has these movies about this. Star Wars has this and you know and and other other this and you know and and other other this and you know and and other other movies you know like our genetic origins movies you know like our genetic origins movies you know like our genetic origins and how those played out in previous and how those played out in previous and how those played out in previous generations um can frighten people about generations um can frighten people about generations um can frighten people about themselves. themselves. themselves. >> Yes. So to go back to your earlier >> Yes. So to go back to your earlier >> Yes. So to go back to your earlier question about how do we talk about gen question about how do we talk about gen question about how do we talk about gen genetics in relation to these phenotypes genetics in relation to these phenotypes genetics in relation to these phenotypes that are really part of our identities. that are really part of our identities. that are really part of our identities. Another thing is that I don't think Another thing is that I don't think Another thing is that I don't think anyone's bad. I don't think anyone's all anyone's bad. I don't think anyone's all anyone's bad. I don't think anyone's all good either. I think that humans are good either. I think that humans are good either. I think that humans are complicated and our behaviors are complicated and our behaviors are complicated and our behaviors are complicated and none of us can be complicated and none of us can be complicated and none of us can be reduced to one thing we've done or one reduced to one thing we've done or one reduced to one thing we've done or one gene we have or one aspect of our gene we have or one aspect of our gene we have or one aspect of our phenotype. But that is a really common phenotype. But that is a really common phenotype. But that is a really common perception that genetics is telling some perception that genetics is telling some perception that genetics is telling some genetics is some telling us something genetics is some telling us something genetics is some telling us something essential about ourselves and that it essential about ourselves and that it essential about ourselves and that it might turn out that that essential thing might turn out that that essential thing might turn out that that essential thing is a bad thing. Um, I write in my new is a bad thing. Um, I write in my new is a bad thing. Um, I write in my new book about this letter that I got from book about this letter that I got from book about this letter that I got from um, a man who is in prison. He's been in um, a man who is in prison. He's been in um, a man who is in prison. He's been in prison since he was 16 for prison since he was 16 for prison since he was 16 for a horrific crime that he committed. It's a horrific crime that he committed. It's a horrific crime that he committed. It's a, you know, a sexually violent crime a, you know, a sexually violent crime a, you know, a sexually violent crime um, that he committed when he was 15 um, that he committed when he was 15 um, that he committed when he was 15 years old. So, still an adolescent, years old. So, still an adolescent, years old. So, still an adolescent, still a growing brain, still not an still a growing brain, still not an still a growing brain, still not an adult. in Texas, you can be tried an adult. in Texas, you can be tried an adult. in Texas, you can be tried an adult as as 15 and he's been in prison adult as as 15 and he's been in prison adult as as 15 and he's been in prison ever since then. And he read about my ever since then. And he read about my ever since then. And he read about my lab, my, you know, our behavior genetics lab, my, you know, our behavior genetics lab, my, you know, our behavior genetics lab at Texas and an issue of Texas lab at Texas and an issue of Texas lab at Texas and an issue of Texas monthly magazine, which I guess the monthly magazine, which I guess the monthly magazine, which I guess the prison subscribes to. And he wrote me a prison subscribes to. And he wrote me a prison subscribes to. And he wrote me a letter and it showed up in my university letter and it showed up in my university letter and it showed up in my university mailbox and it was him saying, "I've mailbox and it was him saying, "I've mailbox and it was him saying, "I've done this thing like, let me tell you done this thing like, let me tell you done this thing like, let me tell you about myself. I've been in prison my about myself. I've been in prison my about myself. I've been in prison my whole adult life, even before then." Um, whole adult life, even before then." Um, whole adult life, even before then." Um, what do you think makes a child go bad? what do you think makes a child go bad? what do you think makes a child go bad? Nature or nurture? And that question Nature or nurture? And that question Nature or nurture? And that question haunted me haunted me haunted me because I could give him a technical because I could give him a technical because I could give him a technical answer which is I could say it's we know answer which is I could say it's we know answer which is I could say it's we know that nature matters. We know that that nature matters. We know that that nature matters. We know that nurture matters. We know that all of our nurture matters. We know that all of our nurture matters. We know that all of our behaviors are influenced by both nature behaviors are influenced by both nature behaviors are influenced by both nature or nurture. Um, but I think when he's or nurture. Um, but I think when he's or nurture. Um, but I think when he's writing me, he's not just asking for a writing me, he's not just asking for a writing me, he's not just asking for a science lesson, right? He's someone science lesson, right? He's someone science lesson, right? He's someone who's done something horrible and he's who's done something horrible and he's who's done something horrible and he's saying, "I feel like I'm inherently a saying, "I feel like I'm inherently a saying, "I feel like I'm inherently a horrible person." And that's might be horrible person." And that's might be horrible person." And that's might be because of my genetics and my do my because of my genetics and my do my because of my genetics and my do my genetics make me bad. And I think that's genetics make me bad. And I think that's genetics make me bad. And I think that's a story about genetics which has no a story about genetics which has no a story about genetics which has no scientific basis but really scientific basis but really scientific basis but really um pops up in a lot of places in our um pops up in a lot of places in our um pops up in a lot of places in our culture and it makes it very difficult culture and it makes it very difficult culture and it makes it very difficult to talk about because you know you're to talk about because you know you're to talk about because you know you're here saying these genetic variants are here saying these genetic variants are here saying these genetic variants are expressed at this point in prenatal expressed at this point in prenatal expressed at this point in prenatal development and that increases your development and that increases your development and that increases your probability of these having having these probability of these having having these probability of these having having these behaviors. But if someone hears that as behaviors. But if someone hears that as behaviors. But if someone hears that as I could be born bad or I could be born I could be born bad or I could be born I could be born bad or I could be born broken, that's absolutely not what we're broken, that's absolutely not what we're broken, that's absolutely not what we're saying. But that story about genetics is saying. But that story about genetics is saying. But that story about genetics is really, you know, woven through our really, you know, woven through our really, you know, woven through our culture. culture. culture. >> The bad seed, >> The bad seed, >> The bad seed, >> the bad seed, bad to the bone, natural >> the bad seed, bad to the bone, natural >> the bad seed, bad to the bone, natural born killer. We have I think the fact born killer. We have I think the fact born killer. We have I think the fact that we can come up with English idioms that we can come up with English idioms that we can come up with English idioms and phrases for this so easily tells us and phrases for this so easily tells us and phrases for this so easily tells us something about the way that we think something about the way that we think something about the way that we think about about about behavior, morality, a self and biology. behavior, morality, a self and biology. behavior, morality, a self and biology. >> I have so many questions but I think the >> I have so many questions but I think the >> I have so many questions but I think the first one I want to ask is a first one I want to ask is a first one I want to ask is a developmental one. developmental one. developmental one. >> Yeah. Um, I think most of us >> Yeah. Um, I think most of us >> Yeah. Um, I think most of us presumably carry this idea that it's presumably carry this idea that it's presumably carry this idea that it's during puberty and the activation of during puberty and the activation of during puberty and the activation of hormones, in particular testosterone, hormones, in particular testosterone, hormones, in particular testosterone, that takes a sweet kid and makes them a that takes a sweet kid and makes them a that takes a sweet kid and makes them a bad kid. bad kid. bad kid. >> I think that's not true. I I I don't >> I think that's not true. I I I don't >> I think that's not true. I I I don't believe that's true. But are there believe that's true. But are there believe that's true. But are there examples of um in the literature of examples of um in the literature of examples of um in the literature of kids prior to puberty being destructive kids prior to puberty being destructive kids prior to puberty being destructive in in a sociopathic way? in in a sociopathic way? in in a sociopathic way? >> Yes. And that's one of the biggest >> Yes. And that's one of the biggest >> Yes. And that's one of the biggest predictors of um what people have called predictors of um what people have called predictors of um what people have called a life course persistent pattern of a life course persistent pattern of a life course persistent pattern of antisocial offending which is onset antisocial offending which is onset antisocial offending which is onset before the age of 10. um antisocial before the age of 10. um antisocial before the age of 10. um antisocial behavior that's not just destruction of behavior that's not just destruction of behavior that's not just destruction of property but also aggression against property but also aggression against property but also aggression against other children. And when we're thinking other children. And when we're thinking other children. And when we're thinking about aggression, oftentimes we about aggression, oftentimes we about aggression, oftentimes we discriminate between aggression when discriminate between aggression when discriminate between aggression when provoked versus proactive kind of cold provoked versus proactive kind of cold provoked versus proactive kind of cold aggression. So the worst prognosis we aggression. So the worst prognosis we aggression. So the worst prognosis we would we would anticipate would be a would we would anticipate would be a would we would anticipate would be a male child who begins to aggress against male child who begins to aggress against male child who begins to aggress against other children or against animals before other children or against animals before other children or against animals before the age of 10 and doesn't feel guilt or the age of 10 and doesn't feel guilt or the age of 10 and doesn't feel guilt or remorse around that that has kind of remorse around that that has kind of remorse around that that has kind of this cold callousness about it. That's a this cold callousness about it. That's a this cold callousness about it. That's a poor prognosticator of having well- poor prognosticator of having well- poor prognosticator of having well- reggulated behavior into adulthood. So reggulated behavior into adulthood. So reggulated behavior into adulthood. So of those kids who have conduct disorder of those kids who have conduct disorder of those kids who have conduct disorder be before especially before the age of be before especially before the age of be before especially before the age of 10 with these callous emotional features 10 with these callous emotional features 10 with these callous emotional features we would expect that 50 to 75% of them we would expect that 50 to 75% of them we would expect that 50 to 75% of them will have a substance use disorder in will have a substance use disorder in will have a substance use disorder in adulthood. Um a non-trivial percentage adulthood. Um a non-trivial percentage adulthood. Um a non-trivial percentage will have meet criteria for antisocial will have meet criteria for antisocial will have meet criteria for antisocial personality or another personality personality or another personality personality or another personality disorder in adulthood. Um and so again I disorder in adulthood. Um and so again I disorder in adulthood. Um and so again I think we're we're looking at a subset of think we're we're looking at a subset of think we're we're looking at a subset of children where there's clearly a heavy children where there's clearly a heavy children where there's clearly a heavy genetic component. There's clearly a genetic component. There's clearly a genetic component. There's clearly a heavy nurture component. It's very heavy nurture component. It's very heavy nurture component. It's very neurodedevelopmental in terms of its neurodedevelopmental in terms of its neurodedevelopmental in terms of its origins and early brain development and origins and early brain development and origins and early brain development and currently we have vanishingly few currently we have vanishingly few currently we have vanishingly few effective treatments. And again, I think effective treatments. And again, I think effective treatments. And again, I think that's because people have maybe that's because people have maybe that's because people have maybe implicitly or unconsciously implicitly or unconsciously implicitly or unconsciously interpreted the genetic research or the interpreted the genetic research or the interpreted the genetic research or the biological research as these kids were biological research as these kids were biological research as these kids were born bad. Not these kids were born with born bad. Not these kids were born with born bad. Not these kids were born with a set of neurodedevelopmental a set of neurodedevelopmental a set of neurodedevelopmental liabilities and we really need to figure liabilities and we really need to figure liabilities and we really need to figure out how to help them. You know, what are out how to help them. You know, what are out how to help them. You know, what are the treatments we can offer them and the treatments we can offer them and the treatments we can offer them and when people see something as a moral when people see something as a moral when people see something as a moral failing, they're less likely to see it failing, they're less likely to see it failing, they're less likely to see it as a biomedical problem that we can, you as a biomedical problem that we can, you as a biomedical problem that we can, you know, throw the weight of science know, throw the weight of science know, throw the weight of science behind. behind. behind. >> What percentage of these kids younger >> What percentage of these kids younger >> What percentage of these kids younger than 10 that show this antisocial than 10 that show this antisocial than 10 that show this antisocial behavior are male versus female? behavior are male versus female? behavior are male versus female? >> The sex ratio varies, but sometimes it's >> The sex ratio varies, but sometimes it's >> The sex ratio varies, but sometimes it's 2 to1, sometimes it's as high as four. 2 to1, sometimes it's as high as four. 2 to1, sometimes it's as high as four. four to one. So, four to one. So, four to one. So, >> and that can't be explained by post >> and that can't be explained by post >> and that can't be explained by post uterero testosterone because they uterero testosterone because they uterero testosterone because they haven't hit puberty yet. haven't hit puberty yet. haven't hit puberty yet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, it either is an or early organizing >> So, it either is an or early organizing >> So, it either is an or early organizing effect in uterero or there's something effect in uterero or there's something effect in uterero or there's something on the Y chromosome that creates a on the Y chromosome that creates a on the Y chromosome that creates a susceptibility susceptibility susceptibility >> and we really don't know actually one of >> and we really don't know actually one of >> and we really don't know actually one of my former postocs is working on this now my former postocs is working on this now my former postocs is working on this now the analysis of the X chromosome um the analysis of the X chromosome um the analysis of the X chromosome um because most genetic studies just work because most genetic studies just work because most genetic studies just work just focus on the autotosome. So, just just focus on the autotosome. So, just just focus on the autotosome. So, just focus on the you know the nonsex focus on the you know the nonsex focus on the you know the nonsex chromosomes. Um the other thing is we chromosomes. Um the other thing is we chromosomes. Um the other thing is we also see this in animals that male also see this in animals that male also see this in animals that male guinea pigs are much more vulnerable to guinea pigs are much more vulnerable to guinea pigs are much more vulnerable to the effects of preterm birth than female the effects of preterm birth than female the effects of preterm birth than female guinea pigs. Again, preterm birth guinea pigs. Again, preterm birth guinea pigs. Again, preterm birth disrupts that same kind of GABA to disrupts that same kind of GABA to disrupts that same kind of GABA to glutamate excitatory inhibitory balance glutamate excitatory inhibitory balance glutamate excitatory inhibitory balance that um we're also seeing popping up in that um we're also seeing popping up in that um we're also seeing popping up in the genetic research. Also, I've just the genetic research. Also, I've just the genetic research. Also, I've just I've I have have two three kids. I have I've I have have two three kids. I have I've I have have two three kids. I have two girls and one boy. And even with two girls and one boy. And even with two girls and one boy. And even with humans, the labor and delivery nurse humans, the labor and delivery nurse humans, the labor and delivery nurse will be like, "Okay, well, we got to will be like, "Okay, well, we got to will be like, "Okay, well, we got to keep him in longer because those early keep him in longer because those early keep him in longer because those early early boys, they struggle. They know early boys, they struggle. They know early boys, they struggle. They know that the male fetus seems to be more that the male fetus seems to be more that the male fetus seems to be more vulnerable to these insults than the vulnerable to these insults than the vulnerable to these insults than the than the female fetus. than the female fetus. than the female fetus. >> Are the guinea pigs sociopathic?" >> Are the guinea pigs sociopathic?" >> Are the guinea pigs sociopathic?" >> Guinea pigs. I mean, all of these things >> Guinea pigs. I mean, all of these things >> Guinea pigs. I mean, all of these things you can you used to work with nonhuman you can you used to work with nonhuman you can you used to work with nonhuman animal models. animal models. animal models. >> I for better or worse, I've worked with >> I for better or worse, I've worked with >> I for better or worse, I've worked with so many different species. I have to say so many different species. I have to say so many different species. I have to say I do not miss working with animals for I do not miss working with animals for I do not miss working with animals for [clears throat] a variety of reasons. [clears throat] a variety of reasons. [clears throat] a variety of reasons. >> That's how I ended up in a clinical >> That's how I ended up in a clinical >> That's how I ended up in a clinical psych program is psych program is psych program is >> humans humans can consent to be in an >> humans humans can consent to be in an >> humans humans can consent to be in an experiment. I as an animal lover it experiment. I as an animal lover it experiment. I as an animal lover it eventually wore on my soul too much and eventually wore on my soul too much and eventually wore on my soul too much and I understand the ne where it's I understand the ne where it's I understand the ne where it's necessary. I also think there's an necessary. I also think there's an necessary. I also think there's an excess in particular and I'll lose some excess in particular and I'll lose some excess in particular and I'll lose some friends with this but in particular um friends with this but in particular um friends with this but in particular um with some of the larger primate work I with some of the larger primate work I with some of the larger primate work I one really needs to justify and there one really needs to justify and there one really needs to justify and there are instances where there's good are instances where there's good are instances where there's good justification but um yeah I've worked justification but um yeah I've worked justification but um yeah I've worked with a lot of different animals but I with a lot of different animals but I with a lot of different animals but I was about to say um I know we both uh was about to say um I know we both uh was about to say um I know we both uh dog lovers um there's this saying um dog lovers um there's this saying um dog lovers um there's this saying um they're no bad dogs just bad owners but they're no bad dogs just bad owners but they're no bad dogs just bad owners but we don't say that about humans we don't we don't say that about humans we don't we don't say that about humans we don't say oh you know there no bad people say oh you know there no bad people say oh you know there no bad people everyone is a good person. They're just everyone is a good person. They're just everyone is a good person. They're just bad parents. At some point, usually 18, bad parents. At some point, usually 18, bad parents. At some point, usually 18, we say you're responsible for your we say you're responsible for your we say you're responsible for your actions regardless of what happened to actions regardless of what happened to actions regardless of what happened to you, regardless of the genes you came you, regardless of the genes you came you, regardless of the genes you came into this world with. And into this world with. And into this world with. And things uh shift where people things uh shift where people things uh shift where people understandably are responsible for their understandably are responsible for their understandably are responsible for their behavior in a different way. Sounds like behavior in a different way. Sounds like behavior in a different way. Sounds like in Texas it can come in earlier in Texas it can come in earlier in Texas it can come in earlier depending on the crime. depending on the crime. depending on the crime. >> Yeah. But I assume all dogs are good >> Yeah. But I assume all dogs are good >> Yeah. But I assume all dogs are good dogs, that they're trustworthy, that dogs, that they're trustworthy, that dogs, that they're trustworthy, that they would never harm you or another they would never harm you or another they would never harm you or another dog, maybe an animal, cuz I've I've seen dog, maybe an animal, cuz I've I've seen dog, maybe an animal, cuz I've I've seen what happens when certain dogs get a what happens when certain dogs get a what happens when certain dogs get a hold of certain animals, but I don't hold of certain animals, but I don't hold of certain animals, but I don't think we make the same assumption about think we make the same assumption about think we make the same assumption about people. people. people. >> I don't think we do either. I I titled >> I don't think we do either. I I titled >> I don't think we do either. I I titled my new book Original Sin my new book Original Sin my new book Original Sin to to really spotlight this exact thing. to to really spotlight this exact thing. to to really spotlight this exact thing. I you know before I was a scientist um I you know before I was a scientist um I you know before I was a scientist um the first 20 years of my life I was an the first 20 years of my life I was an the first 20 years of my life I was an evangelical Christian. So I was raised evangelical Christian. So I was raised evangelical Christian. So I was raised in a very um fundamentalist household in a very um fundamentalist household in a very um fundamentalist household southern praised God and pass the southern praised God and pass the southern praised God and pass the ammunition in lots of ways. And um and ammunition in lots of ways. And um and ammunition in lots of ways. And um and in my in my brand of Christianity that I in my in my brand of Christianity that I in my in my brand of Christianity that I was raised in, which was um Protestant, was raised in, which was um Protestant, was raised in, which was um Protestant, reformed reformed reformed Calvinist, Calvinist, Calvinist, I really was raised with this idea of I really was raised with this idea of I really was raised with this idea of original sin, which is that humans are original sin, which is that humans are original sin, which is that humans are born bad, that they're born depraved, born bad, that they're born depraved, born bad, that they're born depraved, that they're born broken. And I don't that they're born broken. And I don't that they're born broken. And I don't believe that's true, but that's the believe that's true, but that's the believe that's true, but that's the explicit teaching of some religious explicit teaching of some religious explicit teaching of some religious traditions. And that's a religious traditions. And that's a religious traditions. And that's a religious tradition that was really foundational tradition that was really foundational tradition that was really foundational to our culture and our institutions. So, to our culture and our institutions. So, to our culture and our institutions. So, I don't think it's a coincidence that um I don't think it's a coincidence that um I don't think it's a coincidence that um we talk about how there's no bad dogs, we talk about how there's no bad dogs, we talk about how there's no bad dogs, but we assume people can be inherently but we assume people can be inherently but we assume people can be inherently bad because I think many of us were bad because I think many of us were bad because I think many of us were taught that, you know, from a young age taught that, you know, from a young age taught that, you know, from a young age that that all of us or some of us, you that that all of us or some of us, you that that all of us or some of us, you know, if if you're thinking about know, if if you're thinking about know, if if you're thinking about Calvinist theology of some people are Calvinist theology of some people are Calvinist theology of some people are the elect and some people are that that the elect and some people are that that the elect and some people are that that some of us are inherently bad. Um, so some of us are inherently bad. Um, so some of us are inherently bad. Um, so you can be raised with a a religious you can be raised with a a religious you can be raised with a a religious tradition that that really is talking tradition that that really is talking tradition that that really is talking about inherent depravity and then you about inherent depravity and then you about inherent depravity and then you have a scientific tradition that's have a scientific tradition that's have a scientific tradition that's studying well how does genes how do studying well how does genes how do studying well how does genes how do genes affect bad things that people do genes affect bad things that people do genes affect bad things that people do and and then we have debates about how and and then we have debates about how and and then we have debates about how science should be used and that's where science should be used and that's where science should be used and that's where I think things get really thorny and I think things get really thorny and I think things get really thorny and really tricky which is how do we apply really tricky which is how do we apply really tricky which is how do we apply the science without lapsing into this the science without lapsing into this the science without lapsing into this really ancient way of thinking um which really ancient way of thinking um which really ancient way of thinking um which is interpreting the science as proof is interpreting the science as proof is interpreting the science as proof that we're broken that that people are that we're broken that that people are that we're broken that that people are broken at the same time. I mean, going broken at the same time. I mean, going broken at the same time. I mean, going back to this letter that I received, back to this letter that I received, back to this letter that I received, people do horrible Like, people do people do horrible Like, people do people do horrible Like, people do horrible things to each other. And I horrible things to each other. And I horrible things to each other. And I think about that man who wrote me a think about that man who wrote me a think about that man who wrote me a letter and I can say I think he did a letter and I can say I think he did a letter and I can say I think he did a horrible thing. And I think he probably, horrible thing. And I think he probably, horrible thing. And I think he probably, everything I know scientifically, I everything I know scientifically, I everything I know scientifically, I think he probably had horrible luck in think he probably had horrible luck in think he probably had horrible luck in terms of his parents and his genes and terms of his parents and his genes and terms of his parents and his genes and his birth experiences and his childhood his birth experiences and his childhood his birth experiences and his childhood experiences. experiences. experiences. And so, how do we put those together? And so, how do we put those together? And so, how do we put those together? What does it mean to hold someone What does it mean to hold someone What does it mean to hold someone responsible for how they behave? I do responsible for how they behave? I do responsible for how they behave? I do think that we're responsible for think that we're responsible for think that we're responsible for ourselves and responsible to each other ourselves and responsible to each other ourselves and responsible to each other while also keeping in mind the fact that while also keeping in mind the fact that while also keeping in mind the fact that no one created themselves from scratch. no one created themselves from scratch. no one created themselves from scratch. By the by the time he was an adult, he By the by the time he was an adult, he By the by the time he was an adult, he was already in prison for the things was already in prison for the things was already in prison for the things that had happened to him while he was that had happened to him while he was that had happened to him while he was still technically a child. I wrote this still technically a child. I wrote this still technically a child. I wrote this book, my new book, because I was really book, my new book, because I was really book, my new book, because I was really attempting to to wrestle through that attempting to to wrestle through that attempting to to wrestle through that question. question. question. >> I think I'm getting this story right. >> I think I'm getting this story right. >> I think I'm getting this story right. It's a true story that was uh told by It's a true story that was uh told by It's a true story that was uh told by our former director of neurosciences at our former director of neurosciences at our former director of neurosciences at Stanford, Bill Nuome. Stanford, Bill Nuome. Stanford, Bill Nuome. >> Um >> Um >> Um about the guy who went up in the tower about the guy who went up in the tower about the guy who went up in the tower at UT Austin and shot a bunch of people, at UT Austin and shot a bunch of people, at UT Austin and shot a bunch of people, killed them. The tower shooter, I think killed them. The tower shooter, I think killed them. The tower shooter, I think he was eventually taken out by a he was eventually taken out by a he was eventually taken out by a security guard. security guard. security guard. The The The remarkable thing about the story is, at remarkable thing about the story is, at remarkable thing about the story is, at least the way I remember it, is that least the way I remember it, is that least the way I remember it, is that this guy knew something was wrong with this guy knew something was wrong with this guy knew something was wrong with him. Thought that the sight of the him. Thought that the sight of the him. Thought that the sight of the problem was in his brain, problem was in his brain, problem was in his brain, was asking people to look at his brain was asking people to look at his brain was asking people to look at his brain and help him. I think I'm getting this and help him. I think I'm getting this and help him. I think I'm getting this right. We'll double check. right. We'll double check. right. We'll double check. um and then said at the point where he um and then said at the point where he um and then said at the point where he realized he was going to go through with realized he was going to go through with realized he was going to go through with this thing with this act that he wanted this thing with this act that he wanted this thing with this act that he wanted them to look at his brain and it turned them to look at his brain and it turned them to look at his brain and it turned out he had a tumor in a I think it was out he had a tumor in a I think it was out he had a tumor in a I think it was some temporal lobe region that some temporal lobe region that some temporal lobe region that >> it was amigdula >> it was amigdula >> it was amigdula >> oh it was actually in the in the amydala >> oh it was actually in the in the amydala >> oh it was actually in the in the amydala so you know the story clearly uh and so you know the story clearly uh and so you know the story clearly uh and it's where you work um fortunately it's where you work um fortunately it's where you work um fortunately occurred long before you work I mean occurred long before you work I mean occurred long before you work I mean terrible that it happened at all but in terrible that it happened at all but in terrible that it happened at all but in this age of school shooters and public this age of school shooters and public this age of school shooters and public massacres, right? People just, you know, massacres, right? People just, you know, massacres, right? People just, you know, going up into Vegas hotel window and, going up into Vegas hotel window and, going up into Vegas hotel window and, you know, hosing people with bullets. Th you know, hosing people with bullets. Th you know, hosing people with bullets. Th this case is a unique one because the this case is a unique one because the this case is a unique one because the guy knew there was something wrong with guy knew there was something wrong with guy knew there was something wrong with him. Want in some sense wanted help, but him. Want in some sense wanted help, but him. Want in some sense wanted help, but you can kind of create this picture of, you can kind of create this picture of, you can kind of create this picture of, you know, um, angel devil conversations you know, um, angel devil conversations you know, um, angel devil conversations in his head between neural circuitry in his head between neural circuitry in his head between neural circuitry that's saying, "Don't do this. Don't do that's saying, "Don't do this. Don't do that's saying, "Don't do this. Don't do this. Ask for help and do this, do this. Ask for help and do this, do this. Ask for help and do this, do this." this." this." I mean, it's like the cartoon or movie I mean, it's like the cartoon or movie I mean, it's like the cartoon or movie with the angel and the devil on the on with the angel and the devil on the on with the angel and the devil on the on the shoulder or in each ear. the shoulder or in each ear. the shoulder or in each ear. >> What are we to make of that? >> What are we to make of that? >> What are we to make of that? >> Yeah. Gosh, the women case is so it's so >> Yeah. Gosh, the women case is so it's so >> Yeah. Gosh, the women case is so it's so interesting because he did um say that interesting because he did um say that interesting because he did um say that he there was something wrong with him. he there was something wrong with him. he there was something wrong with him. He did ask for help. um when after he He did ask for help. um when after he He did ask for help. um when after he died the state of Texas ordered a died the state of Texas ordered a died the state of Texas ordered a autopsy and um they found that they had autopsy and um they found that they had autopsy and um they found that they had this tumor and the whole thing was this tumor and the whole thing was this tumor and the whole thing was basically labeled like um almost like a basically labeled like um almost like a basically labeled like um almost like a natural disaster had hurt had occurred. natural disaster had hurt had occurred. natural disaster had hurt had occurred. So the the report talks about like the So the the report talks about like the So the the report talks about like the catastrophe or the you know the this catastrophe or the you know the this catastrophe or the you know the this incident that happened. Um, so the they incident that happened. Um, so the they incident that happened. Um, so the they ultimately when when trying to make ultimately when when trying to make ultimately when when trying to make sense of Whitman's shooting people from sense of Whitman's shooting people from sense of Whitman's shooting people from the tower uh at Texas the tower uh at Texas the tower uh at Texas took what was some philosophers have took what was some philosophers have took what was some philosophers have called this objective view. So basically called this objective view. So basically called this objective view. So basically like he they weren't viewing him as an like he they weren't viewing him as an like he they weren't viewing him as an agent who's choosing who's doing agent who's choosing who's doing agent who's choosing who's doing something in the realm of good or bad a something in the realm of good or bad a something in the realm of good or bad a moral failing. They were viewing him as moral failing. They were viewing him as moral failing. They were viewing him as kind of a machine that's gone haywire, kind of a machine that's gone haywire, kind of a machine that's gone haywire, right? He got a tumor in his amydala and right? He got a tumor in his amydala and right? He got a tumor in his amydala and he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't had this tumor. How would they have made had this tumor. How would they have made had this tumor. How would they have made sense of his behavior if he hadn't asked sense of his behavior if he hadn't asked sense of his behavior if he hadn't asked for a brain autopsy? if they didn't know for a brain autopsy? if they didn't know for a brain autopsy? if they didn't know about this tumor, how many other people about this tumor, how many other people about this tumor, how many other people have something going on with them in a have something going on with them in a have something going on with them in a specific location that um if we knew specific location that um if we knew specific location that um if we knew about it might help us understand how about it might help us understand how about it might help us understand how this behavior came across. I uh I write this behavior came across. I uh I write this behavior came across. I uh I write in my book this story of this Dutch in my book this story of this Dutch in my book this story of this Dutch family where family where family where basically all the women in the family basically all the women in the family basically all the women in the family were functioning okay but half the men were functioning okay but half the men were functioning okay but half the men in the family were in the family were in the family were one raped his sister, one stabbed his one raped his sister, one stabbed his one raped his sister, one stabbed his boss with a pitchfork, one multiple one boss with a pitchfork, one multiple one boss with a pitchfork, one multiple one committed arson, multiple of the men committed arson, multiple of the men committed arson, multiple of the men were in prison. And at some point, I were in prison. And at some point, I were in prison. And at some point, I guess one of the women was like, "Y'all, guess one of the women was like, "Y'all, guess one of the women was like, "Y'all, you have to figure out what's going on you have to figure out what's going on you have to figure out what's going on with the men in our family. Like, this with the men in our family. Like, this with the men in our family. Like, this is too much to be a coincidence." And is too much to be a coincidence." And is too much to be a coincidence." And what they found is that on the X what they found is that on the X what they found is that on the X chromosome, chromosome, chromosome, they had inherited a rare mutation in they had inherited a rare mutation in they had inherited a rare mutation in the MAOA gene. So, MAOA is an enzyme the MAOA gene. So, MAOA is an enzyme the MAOA gene. So, MAOA is an enzyme that degrades monoamines that, you know, that degrades monoamines that, you know, that degrades monoamines that, you know, regulate how your neurons are talking to regulate how your neurons are talking to regulate how your neurons are talking to one another. And women have two X one another. And women have two X one another. And women have two X chromosomes. So if they inherit a bad chromosomes. So if they inherit a bad chromosomes. So if they inherit a bad version, they're still the other version, they're still the other version, they're still the other version. Whereas men only have one X. version. Whereas men only have one X. version. Whereas men only have one X. And so from their mom, they got a 50/50 And so from their mom, they got a 50/50 And so from their mom, they got a 50/50 shot. Am I going to get the the mutated shot. Am I going to get the the mutated shot. Am I going to get the the mutated version or the nonmutated version? I version or the nonmutated version? I version or the nonmutated version? I mean, I find this study fascinating on mean, I find this study fascinating on mean, I find this study fascinating on so many levels, right? That the single so many levels, right? That the single so many levels, right? That the single letter change in your DNA could have letter change in your DNA could have letter change in your DNA could have this massive effect on your behavior. this massive effect on your behavior. this massive effect on your behavior. but also that all of these men were in but also that all of these men were in but also that all of these men were in the criminal justice system and had not the criminal justice system and had not the criminal justice system and had not been obviously flagged as something been obviously flagged as something been obviously flagged as something organic or biological or mental illness organic or biological or mental illness organic or biological or mental illness going on with them. And later they there going on with them. And later they there going on with them. And later they there was another group that um found this was another group that um found this was another group that um found this this you know a sensibly rare mutation this you know a sensibly rare mutation this you know a sensibly rare mutation in several other impulsively aggressive in several other impulsively aggressive in several other impulsively aggressive boys that had been referred to their boys that had been referred to their boys that had been referred to their hospital. And they they ended their hospital. And they they ended their hospital. And they they ended their scientific paper on what I find one of scientific paper on what I find one of scientific paper on what I find one of the most haunting notes in the the most haunting notes in the the most haunting notes in the scientific literature, which is, is this scientific literature, which is, is this scientific literature, which is, is this actually rare? Or is it that when we're actually rare? Or is it that when we're actually rare? Or is it that when we're faced with people doing horrible things, faced with people doing horrible things, faced with people doing horrible things, we never even stop to look for what we never even stop to look for what we never even stop to look for what might be causing it from our genetic or might be causing it from our genetic or might be causing it from our genetic or neurobiological from organic way, which neurobiological from organic way, which neurobiological from organic way, which I I think that's a really really I I think that's a really really I I think that's a really really chilling thought. Um so chilling thought. Um so chilling thought. Um so how do we you know in the absence I how do we you know in the absence I how do we you know in the absence I think the question that you're asking is think the question that you're asking is think the question that you're asking is an important one which is in the absence an important one which is in the absence an important one which is in the absence of some smoking gun you know the mutated of some smoking gun you know the mutated of some smoking gun you know the mutated gene the amygdala tumor how do we put gene the amygdala tumor how do we put gene the amygdala tumor how do we put together together together our knowledge as scientists as people our knowledge as scientists as people our knowledge as scientists as people who read the science that yes it's genes who read the science that yes it's genes who read the science that yes it's genes yes it's environment yes it goes into yes it's environment yes it goes into yes it's environment yes it goes into the behavior and also we're humans we the behavior and also we're humans we the behavior and also we're humans we have this this outrage rage and this have this this outrage rage and this have this this outrage rage and this naturally this blame towards people that naturally this blame towards people that naturally this blame towards people that harm each other. How do we as humans harm each other. How do we as humans harm each other. How do we as humans hold both of those truths at the same hold both of those truths at the same hold both of those truths at the same time? I think that's the real challenge. time? I think that's the real challenge. time? I think that's the real challenge. >> I think once somebody is harmed, our >> I think once somebody is harmed, our >> I think once somebody is harmed, our empathy shifts to the victim. empathy shifts to the victim. empathy shifts to the victim. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Or victims. >> Or victims. >> Or victims. >> Yes. in a way that oludes our maybe even >> Yes. in a way that oludes our maybe even >> Yes. in a way that oludes our maybe even at times depending how close we are to at times depending how close we are to at times depending how close we are to the victims or how much we identify with the victims or how much we identify with the victims or how much we identify with it that oludes our um even care that it that oludes our um even care that it that oludes our um even care that like like okay this guy this guy went up like like okay this guy this guy went up like like okay this guy this guy went up on this I'm describing it historically on this I'm describing it historically on this I'm describing it historically this guy went up on this tower killed this guy went up on this tower killed this guy went up on this tower killed these people that security guard these people that security guard these people that security guard eventually got him but the eventually got him but the eventually got him but the >> you know >> you know >> you know >> the parent of that kid that was just >> the parent of that kid that was just >> the parent of that kid that was just walking to class walking to class walking to class >> or you know the young woman who is, you >> or you know the young woman who is, you >> or you know the young woman who is, you know, freshman year or whatever, you know, freshman year or whatever, you know, freshman year or whatever, you know, she's dead now. Yeah. know, she's dead now. Yeah. know, she's dead now. Yeah. >> She's gone. And so I think that in a in >> She's gone. And so I think that in a in >> She's gone. And so I think that in a in a kind of healthy way, not kind of, in a a kind of healthy way, not kind of, in a a kind of healthy way, not kind of, in a healthy way, we just we think the hell healthy way, we just we think the hell healthy way, we just we think the hell with that guy. with that guy. with that guy. >> One less glad they killed him. People >> One less glad they killed him. People >> One less glad they killed him. People will say that, right? People say that will say that, right? People say that will say that, right? People say that I'm I'm not necessarily Yeah. I guess in I'm I'm not necessarily Yeah. I guess in I'm I'm not necessarily Yeah. I guess in some sense if I just stand back and my some sense if I just stand back and my some sense if I just stand back and my reflexive response, it's like this guy reflexive response, it's like this guy reflexive response, it's like this guy killed a lot of people. I understand he killed a lot of people. I understand he killed a lot of people. I understand he was driven to it. He was stricken with was driven to it. He was stricken with was driven to it. He was stricken with something. And I that the um but it's something. And I that the um but it's something. And I that the um but it's hard for me to get to okay well there's hard for me to get to okay well there's hard for me to get to okay well there's a genetic thing that set him up from a a genetic thing that set him up from a a genetic thing that set him up from a gloma in the amydala of all places like gloma in the amydala of all places like gloma in the amydala of all places like he he bad luck but because we assume he he bad luck but because we assume he he bad luck but because we assume that people can intervene in their own that people can intervene in their own that people can intervene in their own behavior. This gets down to kind of free behavior. This gets down to kind of free behavior. This gets down to kind of free will type yes stuff that my colleague will type yes stuff that my colleague will type yes stuff that my colleague Robert Robert Robert >> Seapolski >> Seapolski >> Seapolski >> you know he'll argue to the end of time >> you know he'll argue to the end of time >> you know he'll argue to the end of time that there's no free will which is a that there's no free will which is a that there's no free will which is a frustrating one for for many of us but frustrating one for for many of us but frustrating one for for many of us but >> you know he's a hell of a smart guy. You >> you know he's a hell of a smart guy. You >> you know he's a hell of a smart guy. You know, I think that the the issue know, I think that the the issue know, I think that the the issue for many people is that genes are fairly for many people is that genes are fairly for many people is that genes are fairly far upstream from behavior. You know, if far upstream from behavior. You know, if far upstream from behavior. You know, if I said, "Okay, there's this guy down in I said, "Okay, there's this guy down in I said, "Okay, there's this guy down in uh you know, Los Angeles, and you know, uh you know, Los Angeles, and you know, uh you know, Los Angeles, and you know, he he he >> I don't know, he he he got rabies from a >> I don't know, he he he got rabies from a >> I don't know, he he he got rabies from a dog he was trying to save from the LA dog he was trying to save from the LA dog he was trying to save from the LA River. And then 3 days later, you know, River. And then 3 days later, you know, River. And then 3 days later, you know, he randomly committed this crime. He he randomly committed this crime. He he randomly committed this crime. He killed somebody." You say, "Well, he had killed somebody." You say, "Well, he had killed somebody." You say, "Well, he had rabies. He was raid." like we can make rabies. He was raid." like we can make rabies. He was raid." like we can make the connection very easily, but that's a the connection very easily, but that's a the connection very easily, but that's a you know a neural virus that hits the you know a neural virus that hits the you know a neural virus that hits the amydala among other things and causes amydala among other things and causes amydala among other things and causes people to get very aggressive. We'd go people to get very aggressive. We'd go people to get very aggressive. We'd go okay you know okay you know okay you know >> well you can imagine him without the >> well you can imagine him without the >> well you can imagine him without the rabies. So there's there's you you can rabies. So there's there's you you can rabies. So there's there's you you can you there's some distance between the you there's some distance between the you there's some distance between the self that is the object of moral self that is the object of moral self that is the object of moral judgment judgment judgment >> and the cause that you're locating as >> and the cause that you're locating as >> and the cause that you're locating as the salient cause for this behavior. And the salient cause for this behavior. And the salient cause for this behavior. And if there's daylight between those, then if there's daylight between those, then if there's daylight between those, then you can say, "Okay, well, I can imagine you can say, "Okay, well, I can imagine you can say, "Okay, well, I can imagine what he was like before the rabies." what he was like before the rabies." what he was like before the rabies." >> Genes make it harder to do that >> Genes make it harder to do that >> Genes make it harder to do that >> because when we think of them as so >> because when we think of them as so >> because when we think of them as so essential to the making of the self that essential to the making of the self that essential to the making of the self that is the object of moral judgment, is the object of moral judgment, is the object of moral judgment, >> who is the person that has different >> who is the person that has different >> who is the person that has different genetics, right? We can't imagine genetics, right? We can't imagine genetics, right? We can't imagine what Witwin would have been like if he what Witwin would have been like if he what Witwin would have been like if he didn't have the tumor. We could imagine didn't have the tumor. We could imagine didn't have the tumor. We could imagine what the guy would be like if he didn't what the guy would be like if he didn't what the guy would be like if he didn't get with rabies. But who is the person get with rabies. But who is the person get with rabies. But who is the person who has a different genotype? It's very who has a different genotype? It's very who has a different genotype? It's very difficult to cast a different self. And difficult to cast a different self. And difficult to cast a different self. And so it's very difficult to rescue that so it's very difficult to rescue that so it's very difficult to rescue that self from our condemnation. self from our condemnation. self from our condemnation. >> I'll say some uh something controversial >> I'll say some uh something controversial >> I'll say some uh something controversial on the on the back of what you just on the on the back of what you just on the on the back of what you just said, which is there may even be I'm said, which is there may even be I'm said, which is there may even be I'm speculating here. You're the geneticist. speculating here. You're the geneticist. speculating here. You're the geneticist. Uh I'm there may even be some Uh I'm there may even be some Uh I'm there may even be some deeply hardwired unconscious notion deeply hardwired unconscious notion deeply hardwired unconscious notion around genes that we know that genes can around genes that we know that genes can around genes that we know that genes can be inherited that if somebody has a gene be inherited that if somebody has a gene be inherited that if somebody has a gene which makes them a quote quote unquote which makes them a quote quote unquote which makes them a quote quote unquote bad seed or predisposes them to a really bad seed or predisposes them to a really bad seed or predisposes them to a really bad behavior and then they engage in it bad behavior and then they engage in it bad behavior and then they engage in it and then they're in jail for the rest of and then they're in jail for the rest of and then they're in jail for the rest of their life or they get shot by the their life or they get shot by the their life or they get shot by the security guard. We hear the words good security guard. We hear the words good security guard. We hear the words good riddance. M riddance. M riddance. M >> good riddance implies good those genes >> good riddance implies good those genes >> good riddance implies good those genes were now stopped were now stopped were now stopped >> hope you know we don't know if they >> hope you know we don't know if they >> hope you know we don't know if they reproduced before that so there's reproduced before that so there's reproduced before that so there's something which makes the example you something which makes the example you something which makes the example you gave before especially um eerie of the gave before especially um eerie of the gave before especially um eerie of the uh IVF doc that was literally seeding uh IVF doc that was literally seeding uh IVF doc that was literally seeding these these eggs with his own genes and these these eggs with his own genes and these these eggs with his own genes and then somebody it's like then somebody it's like then somebody it's like >> I mean that the implication is not that >> I mean that the implication is not that >> I mean that the implication is not that that person was killing themselves but that person was killing themselves but that person was killing themselves but whoever that physician was I mean not whoever that physician was I mean not whoever that physician was I mean not somebody a it's terribly unethical somebody a it's terribly unethical somebody a it's terribly unethical you know, at every level, you know, at every level, you know, at every level, >> he's replicating >> he's replicating >> he's replicating >> he's replicating his bad genes, right? >> he's replicating his bad genes, right? >> he's replicating his bad genes, right? Whereas if somebody who is has a genetic Whereas if somebody who is has a genetic Whereas if somebody who is has a genetic predisposition to be sociopathic or or predisposition to be sociopathic or or predisposition to be sociopathic or or really destructive is um eliminated for really destructive is um eliminated for really destructive is um eliminated for lack of a better word or taken out of lack of a better word or taken out of lack of a better word or taken out of society. I mean sure I can you know society. I mean sure I can you know society. I mean sure I can you know orient to the empathy around this person orient to the empathy around this person orient to the empathy around this person who feels stricken but I think we are I who feels stricken but I think we are I who feels stricken but I think we are I believe we are more hardwired to um to believe we are more hardwired to um to believe we are more hardwired to um to think about think about think about >> you know inheritance and propagation of >> you know inheritance and propagation of >> you know inheritance and propagation of genes than maybe we are consciously genes than maybe we are consciously genes than maybe we are consciously aware of. Yeah. aware of. Yeah. aware of. Yeah. >> I mean, I growing up, I mean, my dad's >> I mean, I growing up, I mean, my dad's >> I mean, I growing up, I mean, my dad's uh he's I wouldn't say he's like super uh he's I wouldn't say he's like super uh he's I wouldn't say he's like super old school, but I remember growing up old school, but I remember growing up old school, but I remember growing up like one of the messages I got was, you like one of the messages I got was, you like one of the messages I got was, you know, if you're going to date someone, know, if you're going to date someone, know, if you're going to date someone, meet the parents. meet the parents. meet the parents. >> Like, you can learn a lot by meeting the >> Like, you can learn a lot by meeting the >> Like, you can learn a lot by meeting the parents, which on the one hand is really parents, which on the one hand is really parents, which on the one hand is really cool. It's like, oh, see how their cool. It's like, oh, see how their cool. It's like, oh, see how their family is and how they interact. But it family is and how they interact. But it family is and how they interact. But it has a genetic uh, you know, inheritance has a genetic uh, you know, inheritance has a genetic uh, you know, inheritance implication like if they're kind people, implication like if they're kind people, implication like if they're kind people, if you know, what are you look are you if you know, what are you look are you if you know, what are you look are you look looking for pathology? No, you're look looking for pathology? No, you're look looking for pathology? No, you're you might be, but you're mainly looking you might be, but you're mainly looking you might be, but you're mainly looking for good features or what what's there? for good features or what what's there? for good features or what what's there? No one talks about this openly these No one talks about this openly these No one talks about this openly these days. I feel like it's a really hot days. I feel like it's a really hot days. I feel like it's a really hot button issue. But if I asked you for button issue. But if I asked you for button issue. But if I asked you for instance, you know, um if the guy in instance, you know, um if the guy in instance, you know, um if the guy in prison prison prison had four kids had four kids had four kids before he went to prison, does that before he went to prison, does that before he went to prison, does that worry you? worry you? worry you? I feel like those kids statistically I feel like those kids statistically I feel like those kids statistically would would would need more like [clears throat] they you need more like [clears throat] they you need more like [clears throat] they you know there a lot of this research didn't know there a lot of this research didn't know there a lot of this research didn't pan out but as a metaphor I think it's pan out but as a metaphor I think it's pan out but as a metaphor I think it's really still useful is the idea of like really still useful is the idea of like really still useful is the idea of like dandelions and orchids that there are or dandelions and orchids that there are or dandelions and orchids that there are or sunflowers and orchids like I do think sunflowers and orchids like I do think sunflowers and orchids like I do think there are some children who by virtue of there are some children who by virtue of there are some children who by virtue of their temperament brain development are their temperament brain development are their temperament brain development are pretty resilient across a variety of pretty resilient across a variety of pretty resilient across a variety of different environments and And I think different environments and And I think different environments and And I think there are children who I mean back to there are children who I mean back to there are children who I mean back to dogs just like there are dogs that like dogs just like there are dogs that like dogs just like there are dogs that like you can you can be a lazy dog owner and you can you can be a lazy dog owner and you can you can be a lazy dog owner and the dog will be still be fine or you can the dog will be still be fine or you can the dog will be still be fine or you can have a dog where because of their size have a dog where because of their size have a dog where because of their size and because of their temperament and and because of their temperament and and because of their temperament and because of their breeding they need a because of their breeding they need a because of their breeding they need a skilled and loving owner and I we can skilled and loving owner and I we can skilled and loving owner and I we can think of that very clearly. So like my think of that very clearly. So like my think of that very clearly. So like my dog I I caught him as a rescue and we dog I I caught him as a rescue and we dog I I caught him as a rescue and we think he was being they were being bred think he was being they were being bred think he was being they were being bred as fighting dogs in Texas and you know as fighting dogs in Texas and you know as fighting dogs in Texas and you know you can be like well you you there's a you can be like well you you there's a you can be like well you you there's a vicious attack dog. He's being bred as a vicious attack dog. He's being bred as a vicious attack dog. He's being bred as a fighting dog and you found out he's had fighting dog and you found out he's had fighting dog and you found out he's had a litter of puppies. Does that make you a litter of puppies. Does that make you a litter of puppies. Does that make you feel appalled or like they're bad feel appalled or like they're bad feel appalled or like they're bad puppies or you're like no they need puppies or you're like no they need puppies or you're like no they need really good homes. We have to find really good homes. We have to find really good homes. We have to find really good homes. really good homes. really good homes. >> My friend Whitney Cummings would be on >> My friend Whitney Cummings would be on >> My friend Whitney Cummings would be on her way. She's constantly adopting. her way. She's constantly adopting. her way. She's constantly adopting. They're like rescuing pitbull after They're like rescuing pitbull after They're like rescuing pitbull after pitbull. Like I think she subscribes to pitbull. Like I think she subscribes to pitbull. Like I think she subscribes to the idea there I don't want to put words the idea there I don't want to put words the idea there I don't want to put words in her mouth but they're like no bad in her mouth but they're like no bad in her mouth but they're like no bad dogs just bad owners dogs just bad owners dogs just bad owners >> and there many sweet sweet pitbulls that >> and there many sweet sweet pitbulls that >> and there many sweet sweet pitbulls that come from fighting camps. come from fighting camps. come from fighting camps. >> I mean in many ways I feel like as soon >> I mean in many ways I feel like as soon >> I mean in many ways I feel like as soon as we get out of um how we relate to as we get out of um how we relate to as we get out of um how we relate to each other as humans and we think about each other as humans and we think about each other as humans and we think about this we can think about dog behavior this we can think about dog behavior this we can think about dog behavior more objectively than we can about human more objectively than we can about human more objectively than we can about human behavior. And we can think even if behavior. And we can think even if behavior. And we can think even if personality and temperament is personality and temperament is personality and temperament is heritable. And even if the parent did heritable. And even if the parent did heritable. And even if the parent did terrible things, the offspring are still terrible things, the offspring are still terrible things, the offspring are still not bad puppies. They're puppies that not bad puppies. They're puppies that not bad puppies. They're puppies that that are higher needs puppies or they're that are higher needs puppies or they're that are higher needs puppies or they're puppies that need a a more skillful puppies that need a a more skillful puppies that need a a more skillful care. And that's how I also think about care. And that's how I also think about care. And that's how I also think about this. this. this. >> I don't know about hardwired to pay >> I don't know about hardwired to pay >> I don't know about hardwired to pay attention to heritable traits. I do attention to heritable traits. I do attention to heritable traits. I do think we are evolved to matter to each think we are evolved to matter to each think we are evolved to matter to each other in a way that we call moral. other in a way that we call moral. other in a way that we call moral. >> I think that we are a social species >> I think that we are a social species >> I think that we are a social species that evolved to cooperate that evolved to cooperate that evolved to cooperate and at every point in our evolutionary and at every point in our evolutionary and at every point in our evolutionary history, history, history, every cooperative system has some every cooperative system has some every cooperative system has some mechanism of enforcement. mechanism of enforcement. mechanism of enforcement. If you have bacteria, colonies of If you have bacteria, colonies of If you have bacteria, colonies of bacteria, and one bacterium starts to bacteria, and one bacterium starts to bacteria, and one bacterium starts to soak up too much of the iron or some soak up too much of the iron or some soak up too much of the iron or some mineral in the in the environment that mineral in the in the environment that mineral in the in the environment that they all need, the others will send out they all need, the others will send out they all need, the others will send out signals to try to hurt that one. And signals to try to hurt that one. And signals to try to hurt that one. And they're like, don't stop doing that. they're like, don't stop doing that. they're like, don't stop doing that. Stop freeloading. Stop taking too much. Stop freeloading. Stop taking too much. Stop freeloading. Stop taking too much. If we go all the way back to the If we go all the way back to the If we go all the way back to the beginning of our, you know, our beginning of our, you know, our beginning of our, you know, our evolutionary history, we have evolutionary history, we have evolutionary history, we have cooperation and enforcement of failures. cooperation and enforcement of failures. cooperation and enforcement of failures. to cooperate. And I think that to cooperate. And I think that to cooperate. And I think that evolutionary history is a big part of evolutionary history is a big part of evolutionary history is a big part of why we feel so intensely when someone why we feel so intensely when someone why we feel so intensely when someone harms one another. So Seapolski can make harms one another. So Seapolski can make harms one another. So Seapolski can make all his arguments that like we're not all his arguments that like we're not all his arguments that like we're not supposed to feel moral outrage at supposed to feel moral outrage at supposed to feel moral outrage at people. And for me, I'm like that's like people. And for me, I'm like that's like people. And for me, I'm like that's like telling telling me that everyone should telling telling me that everyone should telling telling me that everyone should be absent. Like it just I think that be absent. Like it just I think that be absent. Like it just I think that that mattering to each other in the way that mattering to each other in the way that mattering to each other in the way we call moral is as deeply baked into we call moral is as deeply baked into we call moral is as deeply baked into the sauce of what it is to be human as the sauce of what it is to be human as the sauce of what it is to be human as sexuality is. sexuality is. sexuality is. And so of course we get caught in this And so of course we get caught in this And so of course we get caught in this what philosophers call this rescue blame what philosophers call this rescue blame what philosophers call this rescue blame trap which is they did a horrible thing. trap which is they did a horrible thing. trap which is they did a horrible thing. We think of humans as having agency. We think of humans as having agency. We think of humans as having agency. Of course they're to blame for it. They Of course they're to blame for it. They Of course they're to blame for it. They deserve to be punished. Oh, but wait. deserve to be punished. Oh, but wait. deserve to be punished. Oh, but wait. His genes, his brain, his trauma, his His genes, his brain, his trauma, his His genes, his brain, his trauma, his childhood environment. He was also a childhood environment. He was also a childhood environment. He was also a victim here. Maybe he needs to be victim here. Maybe he needs to be victim here. Maybe he needs to be rescued from blame. rescued from blame. rescued from blame. Oh, but but he did it. And like he was Oh, but but he did it. And like he was Oh, but but he did it. And like he was so bad. And we I you know, we go back so bad. And we I you know, we go back so bad. And we I you know, we go back and forth. We go back and forth about and forth. We go back and forth about and forth. We go back and forth about ourselves, right? Like if you've ever ourselves, right? Like if you've ever ourselves, right? Like if you've ever done something that you really regret, done something that you really regret, done something that you really regret, you have probably done this where you're you have probably done this where you're you have probably done this where you're like, "Here's all the reasons and I was like, "Here's all the reasons and I was like, "Here's all the reasons and I was trying and these were my good trying and these were my good trying and these were my good intentions, but oh, I can't believe, you intentions, but oh, I can't believe, you intentions, but oh, I can't believe, you know, and how do we find our way through know, and how do we find our way through know, and how do we find our way through the rescue blame trap?" And for me, it the rescue blame trap?" And for me, it the rescue blame trap?" And for me, it was thinking about was thinking about was thinking about bad luck bad luck bad luck doesn't negate responsibility. doesn't negate responsibility. doesn't negate responsibility. It might not have been my fault, but It might not have been my fault, but It might not have been my fault, but it's still my responsibility. But it's still my responsibility. But it's still my responsibility. But holding people accountable doesn't have holding people accountable doesn't have holding people accountable doesn't have to mean harsh punishment. That there to mean harsh punishment. That there to mean harsh punishment. That there accountability doesn't mean making accountability doesn't mean making accountability doesn't mean making someone suffer. And keeping both of someone suffer. And keeping both of someone suffer. And keeping both of those in the same mind is really what those in the same mind is really what those in the same mind is really what made me feel like I could push through made me feel like I could push through made me feel like I could push through this rescue blame trap. this rescue blame trap. this rescue blame trap. >> I'm letting that sink in. Everything you >> I'm letting that sink in. Everything you >> I'm letting that sink in. Everything you say uh resonates and I therefore I'm say uh resonates and I therefore I'm say uh resonates and I therefore I'm updating my uh hypothesis. Um uh again updating my uh hypothesis. Um uh again updating my uh hypothesis. Um uh again just a hypothesis that people have an just a hypothesis that people have an just a hypothesis that people have an inherent desire to stop the progression inherent desire to stop the progression inherent desire to stop the progression of the bad seed. I'm intentionally using of the bad seed. I'm intentionally using of the bad seed. I'm intentionally using this language like we want like if that this language like we want like if that this language like we want like if that person is person is person is >> sure stuff happened to them but guess >> sure stuff happened to them but guess >> sure stuff happened to them but guess what stuff happened to them because what stuff happened to them because what stuff happened to them because their parents were bad head and guess their parents were bad head and guess their parents were bad head and guess what they're bad cuz their parents were what they're bad cuz their parents were what they're bad cuz their parents were bad and like those are bad and like those are bad and like those are >> they're a bad seed at the extremes of >> they're a bad seed at the extremes of >> they're a bad seed at the extremes of course. I'm just course. I'm just course. I'm just >> I also think because based on your dog >> I also think because based on your dog >> I also think because based on your dog example of adopting puppies from um you example of adopting puppies from um you example of adopting puppies from um you know fighting parents uh that in that know fighting parents uh that in that know fighting parents uh that in that example there is this notion that with example there is this notion that with example there is this notion that with the appropriate amount of love and care the appropriate amount of love and care the appropriate amount of love and care that we can rescue them but also we can that we can rescue them but also we can that we can rescue them but also we can choose whether or not they have puppies. choose whether or not they have puppies. choose whether or not they have puppies. >> Yeah. So I do think that there is this >> Yeah. So I do think that there is this >> Yeah. So I do think that there is this idea that like if we see children in idea that like if we see children in idea that like if we see children in really horrible circumstances really horrible circumstances really horrible circumstances that I think it's a very human hardwired that I think it's a very human hardwired that I think it's a very human hardwired thing that we can rescue the lineage. thing that we can rescue the lineage. thing that we can rescue the lineage. >> Yeah. That we can rescue lineage. I mean >> Yeah. That we can rescue lineage. I mean >> Yeah. That we can rescue lineage. I mean one thing that's always fascinated me one thing that's always fascinated me one thing that's always fascinated me and and um encouraged me is I think yes and and um encouraged me is I think yes and and um encouraged me is I think yes there's lots of uh you know there's lots of uh you know there's lots of uh you know transgenerational trauma. Whether or not transgenerational trauma. Whether or not transgenerational trauma. Whether or not it's purely through genes or through it's purely through genes or through it's purely through genes or through experience is still debated but probably experience is still debated but probably experience is still debated but probably both. Um both. Um both. Um but that also in a single generation, but that also in a single generation, but that also in a single generation, you know, that the child of a of severe you know, that the child of a of severe you know, that the child of a of severe alcoholics who makes the choice not to alcoholics who makes the choice not to alcoholics who makes the choice not to drink or to quit drinking drink or to quit drinking drink or to quit drinking to then pair with somebody who can have to then pair with somebody who can have to then pair with somebody who can have a healthy relationship to alcohol, a healthy relationship to alcohol, a healthy relationship to alcohol, >> they're cycle breakers. >> they're cycle breakers. >> they're cycle breakers. >> They're cycle breakers. So you can I >> They're cycle breakers. So you can I >> They're cycle breakers. So you can I think we understand this without think we understand this without think we understand this without understanding genetics. Like we don't understanding genetics. Like we don't understanding genetics. Like we don't have to take a class and understand have to take a class and understand have to take a class and understand mandelian genetics, you know, uh to mandelian genetics, you know, uh to mandelian genetics, you know, uh to understand that in one generation understand that in one generation understand that in one generation something can start or stop in a family something can start or stop in a family something can start or stop in a family line. line. line. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think most people are wise to the >> And I think most people are wise to the >> And I think most people are wise to the idea that family lines no longer exist idea that family lines no longer exist idea that family lines no longer exist in small tribes. I mean, you see shows in small tribes. I mean, you see shows in small tribes. I mean, you see shows like Succession, right? Where it's over like Succession, right? Where it's over like Succession, right? Where it's over like, oh, let's talk about the like, oh, let's talk about the like, oh, let's talk about the propagation of of sociopathicish propagation of of sociopathicish propagation of of sociopathicish [laughter] narcissistic uh traits. [laughter] narcissistic uh traits. [laughter] narcissistic uh traits. >> They were not trying to be cycle >> They were not trying to be cycle >> They were not trying to be cycle breakers. No, they were trying to breakers. No, they were trying to breakers. No, they were trying to maintain the cycle that had fed them in maintain the cycle that had fed them in maintain the cycle that had fed them in their in their, you know, niche. their in their, you know, niche. their in their, you know, niche. >> I mean, I think the other thing with >> I mean, I think the other thing with >> I mean, I think the other thing with regards to cycle breakers is also people regards to cycle breakers is also people regards to cycle breakers is also people people tend to think of genetics in people tend to think of genetics in people tend to think of genetics in terms of how it makes you like your terms of how it makes you like your terms of how it makes you like your parents. You know, you got your genes parents. You know, you got your genes parents. You know, you got your genes from your parents. But the other thing from your parents. But the other thing from your parents. But the other thing that I think is really important to keep that I think is really important to keep that I think is really important to keep in mind is genes recombine, right? You in mind is genes recombine, right? You in mind is genes recombine, right? You are not just like your dad or like your are not just like your dad or like your are not just like your dad or like your mom. you are a random draw of all the mom. you are a random draw of all the mom. you are a random draw of all the potential draws that you could have potential draws that you could have potential draws that you could have gotten from their genotypes. And so even gotten from their genotypes. And so even gotten from their genotypes. And so even within a family with the same parents, within a family with the same parents, within a family with the same parents, you see tons of differences. I have you see tons of differences. I have you see tons of differences. I have three kids and they are different three kids and they are different three kids and they are different personalities, definitely different personalities, definitely different personalities, definitely different risks for addiction and conduct disorder risks for addiction and conduct disorder risks for addiction and conduct disorder problems across the three of them. And problems across the three of them. And problems across the three of them. And so I think it's a mistake to think of so I think it's a mistake to think of so I think it's a mistake to think of lineage as genes being an unbroken lineage as genes being an unbroken lineage as genes being an unbroken lineage because our genes are getting lineage because our genes are getting lineage because our genes are getting recombined in these novel ways with recombined in these novel ways with recombined in these novel ways with every generation. The writer Andrew every generation. The writer Andrew every generation. The writer Andrew Solomon says that we should never use Solomon says that we should never use Solomon says that we should never use the word reproduce. Reproduce is a the word reproduce. Reproduce is a the word reproduce. Reproduce is a something that lulls parents into something that lulls parents into something that lulls parents into thinking that they're copying thinking that they're copying thinking that they're copying themselves, but that every child is themselves, but that every child is themselves, but that every child is produced. Every child is a new product produced. Every child is a new product produced. Every child is a new product and it's unpredictable what that and it's unpredictable what that and it's unpredictable what that product's going to be. Oh, that's product's going to be. Oh, that's product's going to be. Oh, that's interesting. I never thought about that interesting. I never thought about that interesting. I never thought about that word in that way. word in that way. word in that way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wild. Who said that? >> Wild. Who said that? >> Wild. Who said that? >> Andrew Solomon. He wrote Far from the >> Andrew Solomon. He wrote Far from the >> Andrew Solomon. He wrote Far from the Tree, which is about children who are Tree, which is about children who are Tree, which is about children who are very different from their parents in very different from their parents in very different from their parents in some way. So, deaf children of hearing some way. So, deaf children of hearing some way. So, deaf children of hearing parents, um, Sants, whose parents were parents, um, Sants, whose parents were parents, um, Sants, whose parents were like, we don't know where this chess or like, we don't know where this chess or like, we don't know where this chess or music or math came from. music or math came from. music or math came from. >> And then also interviewed Dylan >> And then also interviewed Dylan >> And then also interviewed Dylan Klebold's mother. So, Dylan Klebold was Klebold's mother. So, Dylan Klebold was Klebold's mother. So, Dylan Klebold was one of the Coline shooters. So, normal one of the Coline shooters. So, normal one of the Coline shooters. So, normal suburban parents who ended up having a suburban parents who ended up having a suburban parents who ended up having a child who was a school shooter. And he child who was a school shooter. And he child who was a school shooter. And he talks about this idea of horizontal talks about this idea of horizontal talks about this idea of horizontal versus vertical identities. So, you get versus vertical identities. So, you get versus vertical identities. So, you get your vertical identity from your your vertical identity from your your vertical identity from your parents, but then you're not you are not parents, but then you're not you are not parents, but then you're not you are not your parents. You are not a reproduction your parents. You are not a reproduction your parents. You are not a reproduction of them. They produced you and that of them. They produced you and that of them. They produced you and that there's an identity that's separate from there's an identity that's separate from there's an identity that's separate from that lineage. that lineage. that lineage. >> Beautiful. >> Beautiful. >> Beautiful. >> He's a great writer. >> He's a great writer. >> He's a great writer. 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I like to believe that despite the fact that humans have that despite the fact that humans have that despite the fact that humans have a, you know, some selfish wiring that we a, you know, some selfish wiring that we a, you know, some selfish wiring that we are all inherently good, can be drawn are all inherently good, can be drawn are all inherently good, can be drawn toward goodness, can um in the right toward goodness, can um in the right toward goodness, can um in the right conditions and with the right amount of conditions and with the right amount of conditions and with the right amount of effort can direct ourselves in ways that effort can direct ourselves in ways that effort can direct ourselves in ways that are really beneficial, learn from are really beneficial, learn from are really beneficial, learn from mistakes, be benevolent, all that stuff. mistakes, be benevolent, all that stuff. mistakes, be benevolent, all that stuff. I I think I believe that. I think most I I think I believe that. I think most I I think I believe that. I think most people believe that. We want to believe people believe that. We want to believe people believe that. We want to believe that. Mhm. that. Mhm. that. Mhm. >> If we step a little bit away from the >> If we step a little bit away from the >> If we step a little bit away from the extremes of like severe psychopathology extremes of like severe psychopathology extremes of like severe psychopathology and sociopathy and you know some people and sociopathy and you know some people and sociopathy and you know some people are more um mercenary than others. are more um mercenary than others. are more um mercenary than others. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And our society in certain careers tends >> And our society in certain careers tends >> And our society in certain careers tends to favor that. When I was coming up in to favor that. When I was coming up in to favor that. When I was coming up in science, I don't know what it was like science, I don't know what it was like science, I don't know what it was like in psychology, but there was this cohort in psychology, but there was this cohort in psychology, but there was this cohort of scientists, neuroscientists in New of scientists, neuroscientists in New of scientists, neuroscientists in New York. They were called the New York York. They were called the New York York. They were called the New York neuroscience mafia. One of them, two of neuroscience mafia. One of them, two of neuroscience mafia. One of them, two of them have Nobel prizes. I I'm friendly them have Nobel prizes. I I'm friendly them have Nobel prizes. I I'm friendly with these guys. Um, but you'd go to with these guys. Um, but you'd go to with these guys. Um, but you'd go to meetings and like they would hold court meetings and like they would hold court meetings and like they would hold court in a way that was it was all about them. in a way that was it was all about them. in a way that was it was all about them. It was all about their displays. They're It was all about their displays. They're It was all about their displays. They're brilliant. They've they've done brilliant. They've they've done brilliant. They've they've done brilliant work. Um, but for a lot of brilliant work. Um, but for a lot of brilliant work. Um, but for a lot of people coming up, it was sort of a people coming up, it was sort of a people coming up, it was sort of a pressure test. Like, do you think we pressure test. Like, do you think we pressure test. Like, do you think we could make it in this field? Like, we're could make it in this field? Like, we're could make it in this field? Like, we're going to have to either wait till these going to have to either wait till these going to have to either wait till these guys die or, you know, somehow integrate guys die or, you know, somehow integrate guys die or, you know, somehow integrate with this scene. Yeah. with this scene. Yeah. with this scene. Yeah. >> And they would pick favorites and they >> And they would pick favorites and they >> And they would pick favorites and they would decide who was who they'd go to would decide who was who they'd go to would decide who was who they'd go to drinks with and who I mean it was it was drinks with and who I mean it was it was drinks with and who I mean it was it was very hierarchal. very hierarchal. very hierarchal. >> Every scientific field is like this. >> Every scientific field is like this. >> Every scientific field is like this. >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Good. Okay. All >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Good. Okay. All >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Good. Okay. All right. So, I'm both relieved and right. So, I'm both relieved and right. So, I'm both relieved and dismayed that every field is like that. dismayed that every field is like that. dismayed that every field is like that. And um very different than the West And um very different than the West And um very different than the West Coast version of it because we are a Coast version of it because we are a Coast version of it because we are a little softer on the West Coast, but on little softer on the West Coast, but on little softer on the West Coast, but on the West Coast there was a more cryptic the West Coast there was a more cryptic the West Coast there was a more cryptic version of it. version of it. version of it. >> Yeah. Southerners are like that too. >> Yeah. Southerners are like that too. >> Yeah. Southerners are like that too. It's not that they aren't mercenary, It's not that they aren't mercenary, It's not that they aren't mercenary, it's that they hide it [laughter] it's that they hide it [laughter] it's that they hide it [laughter] >> right under a under a blanket of >> right under a under a blanket of >> right under a under a blanket of softness. Is the Midwest the only place softness. Is the Midwest the only place softness. Is the Midwest the only place where people are truly decent? where people are truly decent? where people are truly decent? >> Have you ever seen that thing where it's >> Have you ever seen that thing where it's >> Have you ever seen that thing where it's like it divides the country into like it divides the country into like it divides the country into quadrants and it's like axe mean is quadrants and it's like axe mean is quadrants and it's like axe mean is mean? Like axe nice is mean. That's the mean? Like axe nice is mean. That's the mean? Like axe nice is mean. That's the south and then I think it's the Pacific south and then I think it's the Pacific south and then I think it's the Pacific Northwest is axe nice is nice. But I I Northwest is axe nice is nice. But I I Northwest is axe nice is nice. But I I don't know about the Midwest. But don't know about the Midwest. But don't know about the Midwest. But >> what was California? >> what was California? >> what was California? >> I don't remember. >> I don't remember. >> I don't remember. >> Oh, probably axe nice is mean. Is that >> Oh, probably axe nice is mean. Is that >> Oh, probably axe nice is mean. Is that the sort [laughter] of the sort [laughter] of the sort [laughter] of >> It could be could be. I mean, I mean, >> It could be could be. I mean, I mean, >> It could be could be. I mean, I mean, here we're focusing on on the DAR and here we're focusing on on the DAR and here we're focusing on on the DAR and there's good people in every field, but there's good people in every field, but there's good people in every field, but but I remember thinking, you know, like but I remember thinking, you know, like but I remember thinking, you know, like going to a meeting meant you had you had going to a meeting meant you had you had going to a meeting meant you had you had to you couldn't get to you couldn't get to you couldn't get >> you couldn't let your guard down. >> you couldn't let your guard down. >> you couldn't let your guard down. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And and I now know cuz I'm, you know, >> And and I now know cuz I'm, you know, >> And and I now know cuz I'm, you know, kind of adjacent to it now because I'm kind of adjacent to it now because I'm kind of adjacent to it now because I'm not I don't depend on them for grant not I don't depend on them for grant not I don't depend on them for grant reviews or I don't need anything from reviews or I don't need anything from reviews or I don't need anything from those guys anymore. I remember the those guys anymore. I remember the those guys anymore. I remember the moment where um they sort of invited me moment where um they sort of invited me moment where um they sort of invited me in was based where one kind of took a in was based where one kind of took a in was based where one kind of took a little jab at me and I jabbed right back little jab at me and I jabbed right back little jab at me and I jabbed right back but I hit him harder. Why would it be but I hit him harder. Why would it be but I hit him harder. Why would it be that like you'd get invited into a group that like you'd get invited into a group that like you'd get invited into a group with special um resources by virtue of with special um resources by virtue of with special um resources by virtue of being kind of a jerk? being kind of a jerk? being kind of a jerk? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm going to be a jerk to you and >> Like I'm going to be a jerk to you and >> Like I'm going to be a jerk to you and if you can be a jerk back like we can be if you can be a jerk back like we can be if you can be a jerk back like we can be jerks together. jerks together. jerks together. >> Yeah. It's a status dominant. I mean it >> Yeah. It's a status dominant. I mean it >> Yeah. It's a status dominant. I mean it sucks. It's a status dominance. move. sucks. It's a status dominance. move. sucks. It's a status dominance. move. It's saying, It's saying, It's saying, >> um, I I'm signaling to you that I'm >> um, I I'm signaling to you that I'm >> um, I I'm signaling to you that I'm confident enough in whatever this is confident enough in whatever this is confident enough in whatever this is that I don't need to cower or submit. that I don't need to cower or submit. that I don't need to cower or submit. >> And then someone's like, oh, I maybe I >> And then someone's like, oh, I maybe I >> And then someone's like, oh, I maybe I don't want to be in a status dominance don't want to be in a status dominance don't want to be in a status dominance aggression competition with him because aggression competition with him because aggression competition with him because he might win. So now we're going to he might win. So now we're going to he might win. So now we're going to >> I have a theory that a lot of scientific >> I have a theory that a lot of scientific >> I have a theory that a lot of scientific fields and men in scientific fields are fields and men in scientific fields are fields and men in scientific fields are a little bit like mice in that mice have a little bit like mice in that mice have a little bit like mice in that mice have very rigid social hierarchies. Mhm. very rigid social hierarchies. Mhm. very rigid social hierarchies. Mhm. >> that they >> that they >> that they establish through aggression. And once establish through aggression. And once establish through aggression. And once everyone's figured out like who can bite everyone's figured out like who can bite everyone's figured out like who can bite whom without getting bitten back, then whom without getting bitten back, then whom without getting bitten back, then they can settle into their nice they can settle into their nice they can settle into their nice hierarchy. And you bit back. So you were hierarchy. And you bit back. So you were hierarchy. And you bit back. So you were like, "No, I'm higher in the hierarchy like, "No, I'm higher in the hierarchy like, "No, I'm higher in the hierarchy than you." than you." than you." >> A bit back of guys. Like I never was the >> A bit back of guys. Like I never was the >> A bit back of guys. Like I never was the aggressor. But like if if you don't bite aggressor. But like if if you don't bite aggressor. But like if if you don't bite back back back >> Yeah. You know, you when somebody >> Yeah. You know, you when somebody >> Yeah. You know, you when somebody kind of with more power than you pokes kind of with more power than you pokes kind of with more power than you pokes on you, you uh you on you, you uh you on you, you uh you >> But you were saying I'm not acting like >> But you were saying I'm not acting like >> But you were saying I'm not acting like you have more power than me. I'm acting you have more power than me. I'm acting you have more power than me. I'm acting like I can poke back, right? like I can poke back, right? like I can poke back, right? >> But it doesn't feel good, right? We >> But it doesn't feel good, right? We >> But it doesn't feel good, right? We would all like to believe that we can would all like to believe that we can would all like to believe that we can ascend in our fields, settle into our ascend in our fields, settle into our ascend in our fields, settle into our place without having to like place without having to like place without having to like >> throw that. Yeah. I mean, you know, cuz >> throw that. Yeah. I mean, you know, cuz >> throw that. Yeah. I mean, you know, cuz anyway, anyway, anyway, >> so I think one thing that you the story >> so I think one thing that you the story >> so I think one thing that you the story gets at too is, you know, we talk about gets at too is, you know, we talk about gets at too is, you know, we talk about impulsivity and desire for intensity and impulsivity and desire for intensity and impulsivity and desire for intensity and I disagree, like I don't actually care I disagree, like I don't actually care I disagree, like I don't actually care who's who I'm hurting in this as who's who I'm hurting in this as who's who I'm hurting in this as unambiguously bad things. unambiguously bad things. unambiguously bad things. But a little bit of those is actually But a little bit of those is actually But a little bit of those is actually can be very adaptive in some can be very adaptive in some can be very adaptive in some circumstances. Like you don't want your circumstances. Like you don't want your circumstances. Like you don't want your surgeon to be like, "Oh, am I hurting surgeon to be like, "Oh, am I hurting surgeon to be like, "Oh, am I hurting them by cutting them open?" Like you them by cutting them open?" Like you them by cutting them open?" Like you want someone who's a little bit callous want someone who's a little bit callous want someone who's a little bit callous to your physical pain because they're to your physical pain because they're to your physical pain because they're focusing on you as a body and doing focusing on you as a body and doing focusing on you as a body and doing this. this. this. >> If you look at um studies of who is a >> If you look at um studies of who is a >> If you look at um studies of who is a successful entrepreneur by the age of successful entrepreneur by the age of successful entrepreneur by the age of 30, they are white men. So, social 30, they are white men. So, social 30, they are white men. So, social social advantage, high IQ as measured by social advantage, high IQ as measured by social advantage, high IQ as measured by a standardized test, history of a little a standardized test, history of a little a standardized test, history of a little bit of adolescent delinquency, right? bit of adolescent delinquency, right? bit of adolescent delinquency, right? And and that makes sense if you're And and that makes sense if you're And and that makes sense if you're thinking about adolescent delinquency thinking about adolescent delinquency thinking about adolescent delinquency was a manifestation of risk tolerance, was a manifestation of risk tolerance, was a manifestation of risk tolerance, of sensation seeking, and who are the of sensation seeking, and who are the of sensation seeking, and who are the people who are not going to be real people who are not going to be real people who are not going to be real great at having a boss, but able to great at having a boss, but able to great at having a boss, but able to tolerate the risk of starting a tolerate the risk of starting a tolerate the risk of starting a business, right? Like academia is full business, right? Like academia is full business, right? Like academia is full of full of people like that that are of full of people like that that are of full of people like that that are like like like >> um I want to think about what I want to >> um I want to think about what I want to >> um I want to think about what I want to think about and I don't want anyone think about and I don't want anyone think about and I don't want anyone telling me what to do and I don't really telling me what to do and I don't really telling me what to do and I don't really care if other people think this is care if other people think this is care if other people think this is useful and I'm really I'm willing to be useful and I'm really I'm willing to be useful and I'm really I'm willing to be really competitive to get resources really competitive to get resources really competitive to get resources >> and I'll use taxpayer dollars thank you >> and I'll use taxpayer dollars thank you >> and I'll use taxpayer dollars thank you to do it [laughter] with. to do it [laughter] with. to do it [laughter] with. >> Exactly. So I have this thought >> Exactly. So I have this thought >> Exactly. So I have this thought experiment in my book where I I I think experiment in my book where I I I think experiment in my book where I I I think again thought experiment I'm not again thought experiment I'm not again thought experiment I'm not recommending this where I think what if recommending this where I think what if recommending this where I think what if we we we did have the means to did have the means to did have the means to um select every every baby that was born um select every every baby that was born um select every every baby that was born every every reproducing couple is going every every reproducing couple is going every every reproducing couple is going to do IVF. They're going to create as to do IVF. They're going to create as to do IVF. They're going to create as many embryos as they can and we're going many embryos as they can and we're going many embryos as they can and we're going to select the ones that have the lowest to select the ones that have the lowest to select the ones that have the lowest antisocial behavior substance use antisocial behavior substance use antisocial behavior substance use strains. And we have a generation that strains. And we have a generation that strains. And we have a generation that is the most puritanical, is the most puritanical, is the most puritanical, risk intolerant, nonsensation seeking, risk intolerant, nonsensation seeking, risk intolerant, nonsensation seeking, controlled, not disinhibited, you know, controlled, not disinhibited, you know, controlled, not disinhibited, you know, very inhibited. Is that a good thing? very inhibited. Is that a good thing? very inhibited. Is that a good thing? Like is that a world that we would want Like is that a world that we would want Like is that a world that we would want >> you don't want my opinion >> you don't want my opinion >> you don't want my opinion >> to live in? I do. I would I could I I >> to live in? I do. I would I could I I >> to live in? I do. I would I could I I would love to hear your opinion of this. would love to hear your opinion of this. would love to hear your opinion of this. I mean, I I mean, I I mean, I >> mean, I don't want sociopathy. I mean, >> mean, I don't want sociopathy. I mean, >> mean, I don't want sociopathy. I mean, the really dark examples are so salient. the really dark examples are so salient. the really dark examples are so salient. We I have to be careful not to end up We I have to be careful not to end up We I have to be careful not to end up there, but I watched that um there, but I watched that um there, but I watched that um uh I didn't watch the Dalmer thing on uh I didn't watch the Dalmer thing on uh I didn't watch the Dalmer thing on Netflix. I would pay money to not see Netflix. I would pay money to not see Netflix. I would pay money to not see that. I don't want to see. that. I don't want to see. that. I don't want to see. >> No, I don't have the time. >> No, I don't have the time. >> No, I don't have the time. >> I did. I did uh watch the um the Richard >> I did. I did uh watch the um the Richard >> I did. I did uh watch the um the Richard Ramirez Nightstalker story um a few Ramirez Nightstalker story um a few Ramirez Nightstalker story um a few years before that was on Netflix and it years before that was on Netflix and it years before that was on Netflix and it was done exceedingly well at the level was done exceedingly well at the level was done exceedingly well at the level of it it scares the out of you. And of it it scares the out of you. And of it it scares the out of you. And um he was a true so like he was a true um he was a true so like he was a true um he was a true so like he was a true sociopath by all measures, you know. Um, sociopath by all measures, you know. Um, sociopath by all measures, you know. Um, but then when you hear the history of but then when you hear the history of but then when you hear the history of his childhood, his childhood, his childhood, >> you know, just horrible treatment of >> you know, just horrible treatment of >> you know, just horrible treatment of being I think if I think I have this being I think if I think I have this being I think if I think I have this right, like being um tied to a right, like being um tied to a right, like being um tied to a gravestone in a cemetery overnight as a gravestone in a cemetery overnight as a gravestone in a cemetery overnight as a young kid, like three three or five just young kid, like three three or five just young kid, like three three or five just left there like his father did. I mean, left there like his father did. I mean, left there like his father did. I mean, just horrible things. But again, it just horrible things. But again, it just horrible things. But again, it doesn't change what I see is the guy doesn't change what I see is the guy doesn't change what I see is the guy with the pentagram written on his hand with the pentagram written on his hand with the pentagram written on his hand in the court like the the mental in the court like the the mental in the court like the the mental imagery, right? So, taking away guys imagery, right? So, taking away guys imagery, right? So, taking away guys like that, uh, people like that, I think like that, uh, people like that, I think like that, uh, people like that, I think you go, okay, yeah, I mean, he was a you go, okay, yeah, I mean, he was a you go, okay, yeah, I mean, he was a sadistic killer at every level, sadistic killer at every level, sadistic killer at every level, >> but then a bunch of, um, >> but then a bunch of, um, >> but then a bunch of, um, just pure passivity everywhere. I I just pure passivity everywhere. I I just pure passivity everywhere. I I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends don't know. I mean, I guess it depends don't know. I mean, I guess it depends on how how far it goes because in the on how how far it goes because in the on how how far it goes because in the earlier example when we were talking earlier example when we were talking earlier example when we were talking about this academic interaction, I uh my about this academic interaction, I uh my about this academic interaction, I uh my friend Joo Willink, former Navy Seal, friend Joo Willink, former Navy Seal, friend Joo Willink, former Navy Seal, he's very active in and now we're he's very active in and now we're he's very active in and now we're talking about kids uh health and talking about kids uh health and talking about kids uh health and education and uh his um education and uh his um education and uh his um >> he's doing a lot there and uh he >> he's doing a lot there and uh he >> he's doing a lot there and uh he reposted something recently that I had a reposted something recently that I had a reposted something recently that I had a good chuckle at. It was certainly true good chuckle at. It was certainly true good chuckle at. It was certainly true for me, which was that it it said uh 90% for me, which was that it it said uh 90% for me, which was that it it said uh 90% of being a dude is making fun of your of being a dude is making fun of your of being a dude is making fun of your friends to their face and and cheering friends to their face and and cheering friends to their face and and cheering them on behind their backs. them on behind their backs. them on behind their backs. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> and I think every guy that had a lot of >> and I think every guy that had a lot of >> and I think every guy that had a lot of guy friendss or has a lot of guy friends guy friendss or has a lot of guy friends guy friendss or has a lot of guy friends growing up or even just a couple good growing up or even just a couple good growing up or even just a couple good ones ones ones >> knows that that's true. And the inverse >> knows that that's true. And the inverse >> knows that that's true. And the inverse of that are the people you're trying to of that are the people you're trying to of that are the people you're trying to select out. select out. select out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. You don't want somebody who's >> Right. You don't want somebody who's >> Right. You don't want somebody who's nice to your face and behind your back nice to your face and behind your back nice to your face and behind your back is trying to backstab, right? or be kind is trying to backstab, right? or be kind is trying to backstab, right? or be kind and then backstab. But yeah, a lot of and then backstab. But yeah, a lot of and then backstab. But yeah, a lot of being a dude is like making fun of each being a dude is like making fun of each being a dude is like making fun of each other but then rooting each other on at other but then rooting each other on at other but then rooting each other on at the same time. That's kind of how we the same time. That's kind of how we the same time. That's kind of how we grow up. grow up. grow up. >> So I wouldn't want a society where >> So I wouldn't want a society where >> So I wouldn't want a society where people wouldn't make fun of me and I people wouldn't make fun of me and I people wouldn't make fun of me and I couldn't make fun of them. couldn't make fun of them. couldn't make fun of them. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> but it the encouragement part is also >> but it the encouragement part is also >> but it the encouragement part is also really important. really important. really important. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I don't know what it is for girls. I >> And I don't know what it is for girls. I >> And I don't know what it is for girls. I I mean I have a sister and I mean I have a sister and I mean I have a sister and I mean she's a very very very kind I mean she's a very very very kind I mean she's a very very very kind person. Um, and I was always shocked the person. Um, and I was always shocked the person. Um, and I was always shocked the way that um, girls treated one another. way that um, girls treated one another. way that um, girls treated one another. So, they can be really mean. So, they can be really mean. So, they can be really mean. >> Girls can be really mean. >> Girls can be really mean. >> Girls can be really mean. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, relational >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, relational >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, relational aggression, there's there's literature aggression, there's there's literature aggression, there's there's literature on this. You know, when we talk about on this. You know, when we talk about on this. You know, when we talk about aggression, we so often think in terms aggression, we so often think in terms aggression, we so often think in terms of physical aggression. You know, I'm of physical aggression. You know, I'm of physical aggression. You know, I'm I'm I'm punching you. I'm stabbing you. I'm I'm punching you. I'm stabbing you. I'm I'm punching you. I'm stabbing you. I'm hurting you. You know, relational I'm hurting you. You know, relational I'm hurting you. You know, relational aggression where you're destroying aggression where you're destroying aggression where you're destroying someone's reputation or social standing someone's reputation or social standing someone's reputation or social standing or making them feel isolated is just as or making them feel isolated is just as or making them feel isolated is just as painful as physical aggression if not painful as physical aggression if not painful as physical aggression if not more so. I mean, there's few things that more so. I mean, there's few things that more so. I mean, there's few things that humans are more attuned to than that humans are more attuned to than that humans are more attuned to than that feeling of, oh, am I being pushed out of feeling of, oh, am I being pushed out of feeling of, oh, am I being pushed out of the group, right? Because that means the group, right? Because that means the group, right? Because that means like ancestrally that means death. And like ancestrally that means death. And like ancestrally that means death. And so what we see research is that the same so what we see research is that the same so what we see research is that the same genes that predict physical aggression genes that predict physical aggression genes that predict physical aggression in boys predict relational aggression in in boys predict relational aggression in in boys predict relational aggression in girls. And relational aggression can be girls. And relational aggression can be girls. And relational aggression can be every bit as damaging, but I think also every bit as damaging, but I think also every bit as damaging, but I think also kind of bewildering to the adults around kind of bewildering to the adults around kind of bewildering to the adults around it. Like it's more covert, right? And it. Like it's more covert, right? And it. Like it's more covert, right? And it's hard to to see it. I was shocked at it's hard to to see it. I was shocked at it's hard to to see it. I was shocked at how early that started. how early that started. how early that started. >> I thought it was going to be something I >> I thought it was going to be something I >> I thought it was going to be something I dealt with with my daughter when she got dealt with with my daughter when she got dealt with with my daughter when she got to be a teenager. to be a teenager. to be a teenager. [clears throat] Four years old. [clears throat] Four years old. [clears throat] Four years old. Ellerie said this and you know, Lily Ellerie said this and you know, Lily Ellerie said this and you know, Lily isn't my friend anymore. And I met with isn't my friend anymore. And I met with isn't my friend anymore. And I met with her preschool teacher and I was like, her preschool teacher and I was like, her preschool teacher and I was like, "What is going on?" And she was like, "What is going on?" And she was like, "What is going on?" And she was like, "This is what four-year-old girls do. "This is what four-year-old girls do. "This is what four-year-old girls do. They make relationship conflict and then They make relationship conflict and then They make relationship conflict and then they repair relationship conflict and they repair relationship conflict and they repair relationship conflict and they do it all the time, every day. And they do it all the time, every day. And they do it all the time, every day. And that is why they are so much less that is why they are so much less that is why they are so much less bewildered by repairing relationship bewildered by repairing relationship bewildered by repairing relationship conflict than your average teenage boy conflict than your average teenage boy conflict than your average teenage boy is by the time they reach adolescence." is by the time they reach adolescence." is by the time they reach adolescence." And I was just completely thrown and And I was just completely thrown and And I was just completely thrown and fascinated by this experience. fascinated by this experience. fascinated by this experience. >> Yeah. boys sorted out in such primitive >> Yeah. boys sorted out in such primitive >> Yeah. boys sorted out in such primitive ways. I mean, I can remember Dirtclaw ways. I mean, I can remember Dirtclaw ways. I mean, I can remember Dirtclaw Wars where somebody broke the Wars where somebody broke the Wars where somebody broke the fundamental rule, which is you can't fundamental rule, which is you can't fundamental rule, which is you can't throw rocks. They threw a rock, then throw rocks. They threw a rock, then throw rocks. They threw a rock, then someone gets upset, then they get into a someone gets upset, then they get into a someone gets upset, then they get into a a scrap, and then a scrap, and then a scrap, and then >> sometimes somebody went home >> sometimes somebody went home >> sometimes somebody went home >> and then the longest it lasted in terms >> and then the longest it lasted in terms >> and then the longest it lasted in terms of a fracture in the group or the of a fracture in the group or the of a fracture in the group or the relationship was like a day maximum and relationship was like a day maximum and relationship was like a day maximum and then we'd just kind of forget about it. then we'd just kind of forget about it. then we'd just kind of forget about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and it was kind of understood that >> Yeah. and it was kind of understood that >> Yeah. and it was kind of understood that someone was going to push the someone was going to push the someone was going to push the boundaries. boundaries. boundaries. >> I am not completely confident that I'm >> I am not completely confident that I'm >> I am not completely confident that I'm remembering the study correctly. So, if remembering the study correctly. So, if remembering the study correctly. So, if you're on, you know, if your listeners you're on, you know, if your listeners you're on, you know, if your listeners are like, "No, Paige, you got this are like, "No, Paige, you got this are like, "No, Paige, you got this wrong." But I remember hearing about a wrong." But I remember hearing about a wrong." But I remember hearing about a study that was about marital conflict study that was about marital conflict study that was about marital conflict where they had um married partners keep where they had um married partners keep where they had um married partners keep diaries of their interactions and then diaries of their interactions and then diaries of their interactions and then also I think maybe like spit into a tube also I think maybe like spit into a tube also I think maybe like spit into a tube every morning and evening. And they every morning and evening. And they every morning and evening. And they looked at how long did men's cortisol looked at how long did men's cortisol looked at how long did men's cortisol remain elevated after an argument remain elevated after an argument remain elevated after an argument compared to the wives cortisol. I was compared to the wives cortisol. I was compared to the wives cortisol. I was basically like they had the fight, his basically like they had the fight, his basically like they had the fight, his spiked up and then it went down like spiked up and then it went down like spiked up and then it went down like classic trier curve of and hers was classic trier curve of and hers was classic trier curve of and hers was elevated for like 24 hours afterwards elevated for like 24 hours afterwards elevated for like 24 hours afterwards and they're if you think about what that and they're if you think about what that and they're if you think about what that means for their psychological sense of means for their psychological sense of means for their psychological sense of what's happening in their relationship, what's happening in their relationship, what's happening in their relationship, she's like, I'm still amped about this she's like, I'm still amped about this she's like, I'm still amped about this and he's like what are you talking and he's like what are you talking and he's like what are you talking about? Like we had that fight and then about? Like we had that fight and then about? Like we had that fight and then my cortisol like we're over it, right? my cortisol like we're over it, right? my cortisol like we're over it, right? So, I do think there's some interesting So, I do think there's some interesting So, I do think there's some interesting sex differences in the relationship sex differences in the relationship sex differences in the relationship between our physiological arousal and between our physiological arousal and between our physiological arousal and our conflict styles and just the our conflict styles and just the our conflict styles and just the timeline that that plays out. timeline that that plays out. timeline that that plays out. >> Fascinating. Um, yeah, so many uh ideas >> Fascinating. Um, yeah, so many uh ideas >> Fascinating. Um, yeah, so many uh ideas and [laughter] and [laughter] and [laughter] >> you're thinking of all the examples. >> you're thinking of all the examples. >> you're thinking of all the examples. >> Well, I'm thinking of some examples and >> Well, I'm thinking of some examples and >> Well, I'm thinking of some examples and um yeah, and and of course what the uh um yeah, and and of course what the uh um yeah, and and of course what the uh what the evolutionary benefit is of what the evolutionary benefit is of what the evolutionary benefit is of those different cycles. I mean there's those different cycles. I mean there's those different cycles. I mean there's certain interactions you don't want to certain interactions you don't want to certain interactions you don't want to forget. It can be damaging to self forget. It can be damaging to self forget. It can be damaging to self >> to forget fights. >> to forget fights. >> to forget fights. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So quickly. >> So quickly. >> So quickly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean I I can say I' I've had >> I mean I I can say I' I've had >> I mean I I can say I' I've had interactions where at the moment it felt interactions where at the moment it felt interactions where at the moment it felt so like vital and then a day later it's so like vital and then a day later it's so like vital and then a day later it's like I'm like how is it that I'm like like I'm like how is it that I'm like like I'm like how is it that I'm like this might not be good that I'm not this might not be good that I'm not this might not be good that I'm not still thinking about this still thinking about this still thinking about this >> but life is carrying on. You know the >> but life is carrying on. You know the >> but life is carrying on. You know the conveyor belt's still moving. So, conveyor belt's still moving. So, conveyor belt's still moving. So, >> um I think it's only fair that I ask >> um I think it's only fair that I ask >> um I think it's only fair that I ask about, you know, we talked about about, you know, we talked about about, you know, we talked about pathology as expressed in boys and it pathology as expressed in boys and it pathology as expressed in boys and it always seems to come out as aggressive always seems to come out as aggressive always seems to come out as aggressive violence um etc. Um in girls, you're violence um etc. Um in girls, you're violence um etc. Um in girls, you're saying that it the social dynamics um saying that it the social dynamics um saying that it the social dynamics um can be benevolent, right? Because you can be benevolent, right? Because you can be benevolent, right? Because you did say conflict and repair that sounds did say conflict and repair that sounds did say conflict and repair that sounds healthy. healthy. healthy. >> Yeah. But in terms of genes that >> Yeah. But in terms of genes that >> Yeah. But in terms of genes that predispose for addiction, um, do those predispose for addiction, um, do those predispose for addiction, um, do those show up differently in girls? Is it, you show up differently in girls? Is it, you show up differently in girls? Is it, you know, I think the assumption that some know, I think the assumption that some know, I think the assumption that some people have is like, oh, it's always people have is like, oh, it's always people have is like, oh, it's always going to be promiscuity. But what going to be promiscuity. But what going to be promiscuity. But what nowadays, especially because of access nowadays, especially because of access nowadays, especially because of access to prescription drugs, I I was told this to prescription drugs, I I was told this to prescription drugs, I I was told this by a former guest, Heath Humphre. You by a former guest, Heath Humphre. You by a former guest, Heath Humphre. You know, if you look at addiction, men and know, if you look at addiction, men and know, if you look at addiction, men and women, it it tended to lean more towards women, it it tended to lean more towards women, it it tended to lean more towards men than women until you get to men than women until you get to men than women until you get to prescription drugs because there's prescription drugs because there's prescription drugs because there's something, I don't know, less something, I don't know, less something, I don't know, less seedy. seedy. seedy. >> The social opportunity is different. >> The social opportunity is different. >> The social opportunity is different. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, what we see in the twin >> Yeah. I mean, what we see in the twin >> Yeah. I mean, what we see in the twin studies and the adoption studies and studies and the adoption studies and studies and the adoption studies and then also in the newer studies where then also in the newer studies where then also in the newer studies where we're looking directly at people's DNA we're looking directly at people's DNA we're looking directly at people's DNA is that the manifestations of at least is that the manifestations of at least is that the manifestations of at least the genes we've discovered so far are the genes we've discovered so far are the genes we've discovered so far are remarkably consistent between men and remarkably consistent between men and remarkably consistent between men and women. So if you have, you know, a a women. So if you have, you know, a a women. So if you have, you know, a a genetic liability towards genetic liability towards genetic liability towards disinhibition, problems with disinhibition, problems with disinhibition, problems with self-regulation, self-regulation, self-regulation, that can manifest as alcohol use, that that can manifest as alcohol use, that that can manifest as alcohol use, that can manifest as aggression and can manifest as aggression and can manifest as aggression and antisocial behavior, but there aren't antisocial behavior, but there aren't antisocial behavior, but there aren't really strongly sex-typed manifestations really strongly sex-typed manifestations really strongly sex-typed manifestations where it always looks like this in women where it always looks like this in women where it always looks like this in women and always looks like this in men. You and always looks like this in men. You and always looks like this in men. You know, we haven't discovered all the know, we haven't discovered all the know, we haven't discovered all the genes um and we haven't looked at the genes um and we haven't looked at the genes um and we haven't looked at the sex chromosomes yet. So there might be sex chromosomes yet. So there might be sex chromosomes yet. So there might be something different, but um the theory something different, but um the theory something different, but um the theory so far that seems to have the best so far that seems to have the best so far that seems to have the best evidence is that the underlying ideology evidence is that the underlying ideology evidence is that the underlying ideology is remarkably consistent across men and is remarkably consistent across men and is remarkably consistent across men and women. And it's the just really the mean women. And it's the just really the mean women. And it's the just really the mean that differs between men and women. So that differs between men and women. So that differs between men and women. So you just get higher rates of all of you just get higher rates of all of you just get higher rates of all of these behaviors and men, but the these behaviors and men, but the these behaviors and men, but the underlying disposition is really similar underlying disposition is really similar underlying disposition is really similar across the sexes. So if we were to say across the sexes. So if we were to say across the sexes. So if we were to say sensation seeking, novelty seeking, sensation seeking, novelty seeking, sensation seeking, novelty seeking, equally distributed. Yeah. equally distributed. Yeah. equally distributed. Yeah. >> But men act out more. >> But men act out more. >> But men act out more. >> Yeah. So what you see is that men show >> Yeah. So what you see is that men show >> Yeah. So what you see is that men show slightly higher sensation seeking, but slightly higher sensation seeking, but slightly higher sensation seeking, but the genes that predispose a man towards the genes that predispose a man towards the genes that predispose a man towards sensation seeking seem to be similar in sensation seeking seem to be similar in sensation seeking seem to be similar in women. Um a if a woman has a fraternal women. Um a if a woman has a fraternal women. Um a if a woman has a fraternal twin who's a boy, his sensation seeking twin who's a boy, his sensation seeking twin who's a boy, his sensation seeking will predict hers just as well as if she will predict hers just as well as if she will predict hers just as well as if she had a twin sister. So similar genes just had a twin sister. So similar genes just had a twin sister. So similar genes just a mean shift. What you see is that a mean shift. What you see is that a mean shift. What you see is that actually in adolescence boys and girls actually in adolescence boys and girls actually in adolescence boys and girls have very similar trajectories of have very similar trajectories of have very similar trajectories of sensation seeking. Where they differ is sensation seeking. Where they differ is sensation seeking. Where they differ is in the evolution of their inhibitory in the evolution of their inhibitory in the evolution of their inhibitory control. So girls mature in terms of control. So girls mature in terms of control. So girls mature in terms of their impulse control faster than boys their impulse control faster than boys their impulse control faster than boys do. We did a study a maybe 10 years ago do. We did a study a maybe 10 years ago do. We did a study a maybe 10 years ago now. It was basically it took until men now. It was basically it took until men now. It was basically it took until men around the age of 24 until around the around the age of 24 until around the around the age of 24 until around the age of 24 to be as controlled as your age of 24 to be as controlled as your age of 24 to be as controlled as your average 15year-old girl was. There's average 15year-old girl was. There's average 15year-old girl was. There's like a decade long gap in the the like a decade long gap in the the like a decade long gap in the the maturation of impulse control. You're maturation of impulse control. You're maturation of impulse control. You're nodding and I used to be a 15-year-old nodding and I used to be a 15-year-old nodding and I used to be a 15-year-old boy. boy. boy. >> I mean I Yeah, that tracks. I think the >> I mean I Yeah, that tracks. I think the >> I mean I Yeah, that tracks. I think the point is that um men develop more point is that um men develop more point is that um men develop more slowly. slowly. slowly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But presumably they catch up but then >> But presumably they catch up but then >> But presumably they catch up but then they die earlier. So they die earlier. So they die earlier. So >> well they go through puberty later and >> well they go through puberty later and >> well they go through puberty later and they have a more extended they have a more extended they have a more extended you know increase up to having adult you know increase up to having adult you know increase up to having adult levels of reproductive hormones. I mean levels of reproductive hormones. I mean levels of reproductive hormones. I mean men's testosterone is increasing men's testosterone is increasing men's testosterone is increasing puberty is over but their testosterone puberty is over but their testosterone puberty is over but their testosterone is still going up through their teen is still going up through their teen is still going up through their teen years and into their 20s. um and they years and into their 20s. um and they years and into their 20s. um and they die earlier but they they women have die earlier but they they women have die earlier but they they women have that long you know they're they're alive that long you know they're they're alive that long you know they're they're alive but they're not healthy for you know on but they're not healthy for you know on but they're not healthy for you know on average at the end of their life like average at the end of their life like average at the end of their life like their health the difference in health their health the difference in health their health the difference in health span is less different than lifespan as span is less different than lifespan as span is less different than lifespan as you know so there's um there's something you know so there's um there's something you know so there's um there's something interesting about the ways in which men interesting about the ways in which men interesting about the ways in which men seem to be seem to be seem to be slower developing in uterus they're slower developing in uterus they're slower developing in uterus they're they're getting to reproductive maturity they're getting to reproductive maturity they're getting to reproductive maturity later and they're getting to adult later and they're getting to adult later and they're getting to adult levels of personality levels of personality levels of personality We need more patience. Women are all We need more patience. Women are all We need more patience. Women are all thinking, "We've given you enough thinking, "We've given you enough thinking, "We've given you enough patience." You know, uh we require more patience." You know, uh we require more patience." You know, uh we require more patience. That's that's the right patience. That's that's the right patience. That's that's the right phrasing. Let's talk about punishment. phrasing. Let's talk about punishment. phrasing. Let's talk about punishment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh but maybe also talk about rewarding >> Uh but maybe also talk about rewarding >> Uh but maybe also talk about rewarding good behavior. good behavior. good behavior. >> Um a while back, I think it was Zimardo >> Um a while back, I think it was Zimardo >> Um a while back, I think it was Zimardo at Stanford was talking about, you know, at Stanford was talking about, you know, at Stanford was talking about, you know, that we're everyday heroes, you know, or that we're everyday heroes, you know, or that we're everyday heroes, you know, or that we were supposed to start orienting that we were supposed to start orienting that we were supposed to start orienting towards, you know, rewarding the towards, you know, rewarding the towards, you know, rewarding the everyday heroes of life. This was kind everyday heroes of life. This was kind everyday heroes of life. This was kind of a thing in the two early 2000s as I of a thing in the two early 2000s as I of a thing in the two early 2000s as I recall. And there's the positive recall. And there's the positive recall. And there's the positive psychology notion. And I feel like psychology notion. And I feel like psychology notion. And I feel like psychology is kind of split into dark psychology is kind of split into dark psychology is kind of split into dark and light. The people who like to look and light. The people who like to look and light. The people who like to look at the dark stuff versus the light. And at the dark stuff versus the light. And at the dark stuff versus the light. And we call it morality, but I'm an we call it morality, but I'm an we call it morality, but I'm an outsider. I don't know. But um outsider. I don't know. But um outsider. I don't know. But um >> we spend a lot of time thinking about >> we spend a lot of time thinking about >> we spend a lot of time thinking about whether and how we should punish people. whether and how we should punish people. whether and how we should punish people. >> And of course at the extremes it's >> And of course at the extremes it's >> And of course at the extremes it's obvious, right? The the the legal to the obvious, right? The the the legal to the obvious, right? The the the legal to the legal system it's obvious, but the legal system it's obvious, but the legal system it's obvious, but the middle ground is the interesting ground. middle ground is the interesting ground. middle ground is the interesting ground. penalty boxing people. Um maybe not even penalty boxing people. Um maybe not even penalty boxing people. Um maybe not even with social isolation, but you know who with social isolation, but you know who with social isolation, but you know who we reward and place into positions of we reward and place into positions of we reward and place into positions of leadership. I mean this is very salient leadership. I mean this is very salient leadership. I mean this is very salient right now. Um and it comes with a lot of right now. Um and it comes with a lot of right now. Um and it comes with a lot of assigning of labels about assigning of labels about assigning of labels about psychopathology from people that may or psychopathology from people that may or psychopathology from people that may or may not be qualified to assign those may not be qualified to assign those may not be qualified to assign those labels, right? Yeah. labels, right? Yeah. labels, right? Yeah. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> how do you think about the genetic and >> how do you think about the genetic and >> how do you think about the genetic and evolutionary but also the societal evolutionary but also the societal evolutionary but also the societal labels of punishment and forgiveness? labels of punishment and forgiveness? labels of punishment and forgiveness? >> Yeah. H such a good question. So, first >> Yeah. H such a good question. So, first >> Yeah. H such a good question. So, first of all, let's just define punishment of all, let's just define punishment of all, let's just define punishment because that actually can mean different because that actually can mean different because that actually can mean different things to different people. So as a you things to different people. So as a you things to different people. So as a you know a psychologist I think about know a psychologist I think about know a psychologist I think about punishment is um applying an aversive punishment is um applying an aversive punishment is um applying an aversive stimulus in an attempt to reduce the stimulus in an attempt to reduce the stimulus in an attempt to reduce the frequency of a behavior. Right? So it's frequency of a behavior. Right? So it's frequency of a behavior. Right? So it's the rat is in its skinner box and every the rat is in its skinner box and every the rat is in its skinner box and every time it goes into this area you give it time it goes into this area you give it time it goes into this area you give it a shock and that's a punishment to make a shock and that's a punishment to make a shock and that's a punishment to make it not go into this area of the box. If it not go into this area of the box. If it not go into this area of the box. If you have a child, punishment is you're you have a child, punishment is you're you have a child, punishment is you're gonna be in timeout or I'm gonna spank gonna be in timeout or I'm gonna spank gonna be in timeout or I'm gonna spank you. I'm gonna give you some sort of you. I'm gonna give you some sort of you. I'm gonna give you some sort of thing that I know you're not going to thing that I know you're not going to thing that I know you're not going to like um in order to try to reduce the like um in order to try to reduce the like um in order to try to reduce the frequency of this behavior. frequency of this behavior. frequency of this behavior. From psychology, we know from decades of From psychology, we know from decades of From psychology, we know from decades of evidence that punishing bad behavior evidence that punishing bad behavior evidence that punishing bad behavior doesn't work nearly as well for shaping doesn't work nearly as well for shaping doesn't work nearly as well for shaping behavior as rewarding the behavior that behavior as rewarding the behavior that behavior as rewarding the behavior that you want. Right? So, if you reward a rat you want. Right? So, if you reward a rat you want. Right? So, if you reward a rat for pressing a lever, it'll do that all for pressing a lever, it'll do that all for pressing a lever, it'll do that all day long. If you give a rat alcohol day long. If you give a rat alcohol day long. If you give a rat alcohol every time it presses a bar every time it presses a bar every time it presses a bar and then you stop mid experiment and you and then you stop mid experiment and you and then you stop mid experiment and you start shocking it, some rats will stop start shocking it, some rats will stop start shocking it, some rats will stop pressing the bar and other rats will pressing the bar and other rats will pressing the bar and other rats will actually increase their rate of actually increase their rate of actually increase their rate of behavior. They will be like, "Maybe this behavior. They will be like, "Maybe this behavior. They will be like, "Maybe this time. Maybe this time it'll be." It's time. Maybe this time it'll be." It's time. Maybe this time it'll be." It's the same thing with kids, right? We know the same thing with kids, right? We know the same thing with kids, right? We know from, from, from, you know, all of our research on you know, all of our research on you know, all of our research on corporal punishment that children who corporal punishment that children who corporal punishment that children who are spanked are spanked are spanked do not behave better than children who do not behave better than children who do not behave better than children who aren't spanked. And if anything, they aren't spanked. And if anything, they aren't spanked. And if anything, they behave worse. So, you've had Dr. Becky behave worse. So, you've had Dr. Becky behave worse. So, you've had Dr. Becky Kennedy on here. you know, she has been, Kennedy on here. you know, she has been, Kennedy on here. you know, she has been, I think, so influential in that you need I think, so influential in that you need I think, so influential in that you need to have consequences, but attempting to to have consequences, but attempting to to have consequences, but attempting to to um help your child behave better to um help your child behave better to um help your child behave better through harshness is is on average going through harshness is is on average going through harshness is is on average going to be a losing strategy. And then I to be a losing strategy. And then I to be a losing strategy. And then I think you said, you know, it does, you think you said, you know, it does, you think you said, you know, it does, you know, maybe uh at the extremes with the know, maybe uh at the extremes with the know, maybe uh at the extremes with the criminal justice system, but we also see criminal justice system, but we also see criminal justice system, but we also see that in the criminal justice system that that in the criminal justice system that that in the criminal justice system that um increasing the harshness of criminal um increasing the harshness of criminal um increasing the harshness of criminal penalties doesn't predict a decline in penalties doesn't predict a decline in penalties doesn't predict a decline in crime. The thing that seems to predict crime. The thing that seems to predict crime. The thing that seems to predict it is the likelihood of getting caught it is the likelihood of getting caught it is the likelihood of getting caught and having other potential opportunities and having other potential opportunities and having other potential opportunities to get the rewards that you want in your to get the rewards that you want in your to get the rewards that you want in your social structure. But just increasing social structure. But just increasing social structure. But just increasing penalties for crime doesn't on average penalties for crime doesn't on average penalties for crime doesn't on average reduce crime. Um so I you know whether reduce crime. Um so I you know whether reduce crime. Um so I you know whether we're talking about rats or children or we're talking about rats or children or we're talking about rats or children or prisoners prisoners prisoners adding more harshness is not we know the adding more harshness is not we know the adding more harshness is not we know the the most effective way to get the the most effective way to get the the most effective way to get the behaviors that we want. This is also behaviors that we want. This is also behaviors that we want. This is also true back going back to dogs, right? true back going back to dogs, right? true back going back to dogs, right? Like what is the best dog training Like what is the best dog training Like what is the best dog training method? It's never harshly punishing method? It's never harshly punishing method? It's never harshly punishing them or applying pain for behavior you them or applying pain for behavior you them or applying pain for behavior you don't want, right? It's firmness, don't want, right? It's firmness, don't want, right? It's firmness, boundaries, but rewarding the behavior boundaries, but rewarding the behavior boundaries, but rewarding the behavior that you do want in also in the context that you do want in also in the context that you do want in also in the context of building, you know, trust in a of building, you know, trust in a of building, you know, trust in a relationship with your dog. So, I feel relationship with your dog. So, I feel relationship with your dog. So, I feel like [snorts] no luck doesn't obiate like [snorts] no luck doesn't obiate like [snorts] no luck doesn't obiate responsibility. Like, we are still responsibility. Like, we are still responsibility. Like, we are still responsible for the people that we are, responsible for the people that we are, responsible for the people that we are, even though we're shaped by factors that even though we're shaped by factors that even though we're shaped by factors that are in control. But in terms of holding are in control. But in terms of holding are in control. But in terms of holding people responsible, people responsible, people responsible, punishing them harshly punishing them harshly punishing them harshly doesn't bring about what we really want doesn't bring about what we really want doesn't bring about what we really want other than just satisfying that other than just satisfying that other than just satisfying that retributive itch. Um it's giving them retributive itch. Um it's giving them retributive itch. Um it's giving them opportunities in the reward structure to opportunities in the reward structure to opportunities in the reward structure to be rewarded by the things we do want be rewarded by the things we do want be rewarded by the things we do want that we we know is the most effective that we we know is the most effective that we we know is the most effective strategy. um all in all. So strategy. um all in all. So strategy. um all in all. So I think the slide that people make is if I think the slide that people make is if I think the slide that people make is if someone's responsible, if someone had someone's responsible, if someone had someone's responsible, if someone had agency, then they deserve to be agency, then they deserve to be agency, then they deserve to be punished. And what I'm trying to to punished. And what I'm trying to to punished. And what I'm trying to to separate is those two things. Can separate is those two things. Can separate is those two things. Can someone be responsible? They had agency. someone be responsible? They had agency. someone be responsible? They had agency. We want to hold them accountable, We want to hold them accountable, We want to hold them accountable, but how do we do that without but how do we do that without but how do we do that without immediately jumping to and so therefore immediately jumping to and so therefore immediately jumping to and so therefore they deserve to suffer and so therefore they deserve to suffer and so therefore they deserve to suffer and so therefore they deserve to hurt. And there's no they deserve to hurt. And there's no they deserve to hurt. And there's no like one-size magic bullet to making like one-size magic bullet to making like one-size magic bullet to making that happen, right? like that, you know, that happen, right? like that, you know, that happen, right? like that, you know, that's how do we relate to each other as that's how do we relate to each other as that's how do we relate to each other as people? But as a mother, people? But as a mother, people? But as a mother, my strategy with my own kids has been my strategy with my own kids has been my strategy with my own kids has been really heavily influenced by thinking really heavily influenced by thinking really heavily influenced by thinking about like punishment is not the most about like punishment is not the most about like punishment is not the most effective way. That doesn't mean we live effective way. That doesn't mean we live effective way. That doesn't mean we live in a no like there's no rules, anything in a no like there's no rules, anything in a no like there's no rules, anything goes household, right? Like we have goes household, right? Like we have goes household, right? Like we have consequences, we have accountability, we consequences, we have accountability, we consequences, we have accountability, we have boundaries, but there's always have boundaries, but there's always have boundaries, but there's always space to say space to say space to say reflect on what you did. reflect on what reflect on what you did. reflect on what reflect on what you did. reflect on what needs to be different for your behavior needs to be different for your behavior needs to be different for your behavior to be different in the future and how to be different in the future and how to be different in the future and how can we create an environment that helps can we create an environment that helps can we create an environment that helps you grow, helps you helps that happen. you grow, helps you helps that happen. you grow, helps you helps that happen. I'm pretty anti-punishment. I'm pro I'm pretty anti-punishment. I'm pro I'm pretty anti-punishment. I'm pro responsibility and pretty responsibility and pretty responsibility and pretty anti-punishment as a way of holding each anti-punishment as a way of holding each anti-punishment as a way of holding each other responsible. other responsible. other responsible. >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep that are customized to your unique sleep that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times needs. Now, I've spoken many times needs. 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There have been a few examples, for instance, of text a few examples, for instance, of text a few examples, for instance, of text message threads were unearthed of people message threads were unearthed of people message threads were unearthed of people who are now in their 20s and 30s from who are now in their 20s and 30s from who are now in their 20s and 30s from their teen years. You know, I think in their teen years. You know, I think in their teen years. You know, I think in one instance it was a group of friends one instance it was a group of friends one instance it was a group of friends and people were making um uh racist and people were making um uh racist and people were making um uh racist comments and then I think the ultimate comments and then I think the ultimate comments and then I think the ultimate decision was okay if this person decision was okay if this person decision was okay if this person apologized their whole life shouldn't be apologized their whole life shouldn't be apologized their whole life shouldn't be ruined on the basis of a comment made ruined on the basis of a comment made ruined on the basis of a comment made you know earlier uh you know five six you know earlier uh you know five six you know earlier uh you know five six years earlier in a different context etc years earlier in a different context etc years earlier in a different context etc etc and I think that's how it moved etc and I think that's how it moved etc and I think that's how it moved forward but there were people calling forward but there were people calling forward but there were people calling for like hey this person is a racist for like hey this person is a racist for like hey this person is a racist they should they should they should um forbidden from having a government um forbidden from having a government um forbidden from having a government job. job. job. >> And I think it it played out pretty >> And I think it it played out pretty >> And I think it it played out pretty quickly, but um quickly, but um quickly, but um nowadays with social media, everyone can nowadays with social media, everyone can nowadays with social media, everyone can chime in. So, we're not really talking chime in. So, we're not really talking chime in. So, we're not really talking about courtroom decision. We're talking about courtroom decision. We're talking about courtroom decision. We're talking about court of public opinion. about court of public opinion. about court of public opinion. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> A different example perhaps that I'd >> A different example perhaps that I'd >> A different example perhaps that I'd like your thoughts on is um like Kanye like your thoughts on is um like Kanye like your thoughts on is um like Kanye had a year or two ago made a bunch of had a year or two ago made a bunch of had a year or two ago made a bunch of really anti-semitic remarks, was wearing really anti-semitic remarks, was wearing really anti-semitic remarks, was wearing SWAT ticket t-shirt and then recently SWAT ticket t-shirt and then recently SWAT ticket t-shirt and then recently published an apology. published an apology. published an apology. >> He said he was sorry he wasn't in, you >> He said he was sorry he wasn't in, you >> He said he was sorry he wasn't in, you know, in the right state of mind, etc. know, in the right state of mind, etc. know, in the right state of mind, etc. He's talked about some mental health He's talked about some mental health He's talked about some mental health challenges and things of that sort. And challenges and things of that sort. And challenges and things of that sort. And he seems to be largely forgiven. Um, at he seems to be largely forgiven. Um, at he seems to be largely forgiven. Um, at least that seems to be the the least that seems to be the the least that seems to be the the sentiment. Now, of course, he also sentiment. Now, of course, he also sentiment. Now, of course, he also brings something that a lot of people brings something that a lot of people brings something that a lot of people want, which is music that people uh love want, which is music that people uh love want, which is music that people uh love to hear. So there's always this kind of to hear. So there's always this kind of to hear. So there's always this kind of value ad, value subtraction thing when value ad, value subtraction thing when value ad, value subtraction thing when we punish people versus the anonymous we punish people versus the anonymous we punish people versus the anonymous person, right? Um what are they're not person, right? Um what are they're not person, right? Um what are they're not doing anything for people, so they're doing anything for people, so they're doing anything for people, so they're more quick to just say, "Well, just more quick to just say, "Well, just more quick to just say, "Well, just punish them, lock them away." It's punish them, lock them away." It's punish them, lock them away." It's fascinating because we you even though fascinating because we you even though fascinating because we you even though these are public facing examples, we use these are public facing examples, we use these are public facing examples, we use these as a template for how to deal these as a template for how to deal these as a template for how to deal with, you know, someone who, you know, with, you know, someone who, you know, with, you know, someone who, you know, got too drunk at the dorm party on got too drunk at the dorm party on got too drunk at the dorm party on Friday and said something really stupid Friday and said something really stupid Friday and said something really stupid and got a bunch of offended people. Do and got a bunch of offended people. Do and got a bunch of offended people. Do you kick them out of school maybe or you kick them out of school maybe or you kick them out of school maybe or her? Or do you sit them down and go, her? Or do you sit them down and go, her? Or do you sit them down and go, "Hey, that was really insensitive and "Hey, that was really insensitive and "Hey, that was really insensitive and they have to do a bunch of sensitivity they have to do a bunch of sensitivity they have to do a bunch of sensitivity training and you know, and then you go, training and you know, and then you go, training and you know, and then you go, okay, like they're healed." you know, I okay, like they're healed." you know, I okay, like they're healed." you know, I mean, mean, mean, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I don't have any answers to this, but >> I don't have any answers to this, but >> I don't have any answers to this, but this is how it seems to play out in the this is how it seems to play out in the this is how it seems to play out in the real world. It's sort of like very real world. It's sort of like very real world. It's sort of like very salient examples, not at the super salient examples, not at the super salient examples, not at the super extremes. I mean, racism is bad, but he extremes. I mean, racism is bad, but he extremes. I mean, racism is bad, but he didn't kill anyone. So then the didn't kill anyone. So then the didn't kill anyone. So then the punishment is either do we keep him or punishment is either do we keep him or punishment is either do we keep him or do we isolate him? And then what happens do we isolate him? And then what happens do we isolate him? And then what happens does set the course of what happens at does set the course of what happens at does set the course of what happens at at um more everyday levels. So I think at um more everyday levels. So I think at um more everyday levels. So I think what you're pointing to is America is an what you're pointing to is America is an what you're pointing to is America is an incredibly punitive retributive culture. incredibly punitive retributive culture. incredibly punitive retributive culture. There is a reward that we can see in the There is a reward that we can see in the There is a reward that we can see in the brains of people when they see someone brains of people when they see someone brains of people when they see someone suffer if that person is first portrayed suffer if that person is first portrayed suffer if that person is first portrayed as a wrongdoer. as a wrongdoer. as a wrongdoer. >> So ordinarily if you see someone be >> So ordinarily if you see someone be >> So ordinarily if you see someone be shocked you have interior insula. It's shocked you have interior insula. It's shocked you have interior insula. It's like you're being shocked too. Unless like you're being shocked too. Unless like you're being shocked too. Unless that person is first portrayed as that person is first portrayed as that person is first portrayed as violating some moral or social norm, in violating some moral or social norm, in violating some moral or social norm, in which case dopamine, you get a reward which case dopamine, you get a reward which case dopamine, you get a reward out of seeing that person punished. I out of seeing that person punished. I out of seeing that person punished. I think that it is a lust just as much as think that it is a lust just as much as think that it is a lust just as much as lust for substances or lust for sexual lust for substances or lust for sexual lust for substances or lust for sexual partners. It is a desire people want to partners. It is a desire people want to partners. It is a desire people want to see people punished. Nze was an amazing see people punished. Nze was an amazing see people punished. Nze was an amazing observer of human nature before there observer of human nature before there observer of human nature before there was a scientific psychology. was a scientific psychology. was a scientific psychology. And he wrote about how what why do we And he wrote about how what why do we And he wrote about how what why do we use use use um monetary terms to describe people um monetary terms to describe people um monetary terms to describe people being punished, pay their debt to being punished, pay their debt to being punished, pay their debt to society. society. society. >> People shouldn't get off scot-free. >> People shouldn't get off scot-free. >> People shouldn't get off scot-free. Scott is a word for tax. Um what is Scott is a word for tax. Um what is Scott is a word for tax. Um what is that? And what he theorized is that what that? And what he theorized is that what that? And what he theorized is that what you're being paid back with is the you're being paid back with is the you're being paid back with is the pleasure of seeing a fellow human hurt. pleasure of seeing a fellow human hurt. pleasure of seeing a fellow human hurt. You hurt someone and we can't undo that You hurt someone and we can't undo that You hurt someone and we can't undo that hurt. We can't magic it away. How does hurt. We can't magic it away. How does hurt. We can't magic it away. How does them being punished pay their debt to them being punished pay their debt to them being punished pay their debt to society? And he wrote, "Maybe it's that society? And he wrote, "Maybe it's that society? And he wrote, "Maybe it's that cruelty is a currency and that all of us cruelty is a currency and that all of us cruelty is a currency and that all of us have a primitive desire to be the have a primitive desire to be the have a primitive desire to be the punisher and that's what's being punisher and that's what's being punisher and that's what's being repaid." repaid." repaid." blew my mind when I was reading it. And blew my mind when I was reading it. And blew my mind when I was reading it. And now that I see it, I see that now that I see it, I see that now that I see it, I see that everywhere. I think we see that in everywhere. I think we see that in everywhere. I think we see that in cancel culture mobs. I think we see that cancel culture mobs. I think we see that cancel culture mobs. I think we see that in politics. I think we see um in in politics. I think we see um in in politics. I think we see um in America a real lust to make other people America a real lust to make other people America a real lust to make other people suffer and finding ways that they're suffer and finding ways that they're suffer and finding ways that they're guilty that allows us to feel entitled guilty that allows us to feel entitled guilty that allows us to feel entitled to that pleasure of punishing them or to that pleasure of punishing them or to that pleasure of punishing them or entitled to that pleasure of witnessing entitled to that pleasure of witnessing entitled to that pleasure of witnessing them being punished is absolutely runs them being punished is absolutely runs them being punished is absolutely runs through our culture top to bottom both through our culture top to bottom both through our culture top to bottom both sides of the political spectrum. sides of the political spectrum. sides of the political spectrum. One of my favorite books that I read One of my favorite books that I read One of my favorite books that I read when I was when I was writing my book is when I was when I was writing my book is when I was when I was writing my book is this book called um One of Us. And it's this book called um One of Us. And it's this book called um One of Us. And it's about the Norwegian about the Norwegian about the Norwegian mass shooter who shot all of those mass shooter who shot all of those mass shooter who shot all of those children at a a summer camp who was children at a a summer camp who was children at a a summer camp who was someone who was afflicted with terrible someone who was afflicted with terrible someone who was afflicted with terrible luck. From the time he was a child, he luck. From the time he was a child, he luck. From the time he was a child, he was described as someone who um was described as someone who um was described as someone who um had a temper, who was socially odd. His had a temper, who was socially odd. His had a temper, who was socially odd. His mother was very unstable. A lot of mother was very unstable. A lot of mother was very unstable. A lot of nature and nurture and circumstance nature and nurture and circumstance nature and nurture and circumstance conspired. And during his trial, they conspired. And during his trial, they conspired. And during his trial, they [snorts] had this whole debate about is [snorts] had this whole debate about is [snorts] had this whole debate about is he insane, is he not insane? he insane, is he not insane? he insane, is he not insane? And they had a psychologist who gave And they had a psychologist who gave And they had a psychologist who gave testimony and he said, "No matter what's testimony and he said, "No matter what's testimony and he said, "No matter what's happening, he's one of us. He's part of happening, he's one of us. He's part of happening, he's one of us. He's part of our society. So, how are we going to our society. So, how are we going to our society. So, how are we going to deal with him without deal with him without deal with him without exiling him, throwing away the key?" And exiling him, throwing away the key?" And exiling him, throwing away the key?" And all of the examples that you described all of the examples that you described all of the examples that you described are people trying to make this decision are people trying to make this decision are people trying to make this decision about like who do we keep in our group? about like who do we keep in our group? about like who do we keep in our group? Do they have enough for us that it's Do they have enough for us that it's Do they have enough for us that it's worth keeping them and who do we get to worth keeping them and who do we get to worth keeping them and who do we get to exile and then feel entitled to feel the exile and then feel entitled to feel the exile and then feel entitled to feel the pleasure of watching them suffer? And I pleasure of watching them suffer? And I pleasure of watching them suffer? And I think that's a fundamentally un inhuman think that's a fundamentally un inhuman think that's a fundamentally un inhuman way to look at our I think that we are a way to look at our I think that we are a way to look at our I think that we are a society and that means everyone even society and that means everyone even society and that means everyone even people who do terrible terrible things people who do terrible terrible things people who do terrible terrible things they're still one of us. They're still they're still one of us. They're still they're still one of us. They're still they're still one of God's creatures. they're still one of God's creatures. they're still one of God's creatures. They're still part of part of our human They're still part of part of our human They're still part of part of our human circle. Um, but how do we shift our circle. Um, but how do we shift our circle. Um, but how do we shift our culture away from this glee at culture away from this glee at culture away from this glee at punishment? I don't know. I I think it's punishment? I don't know. I I think it's punishment? I don't know. I I think it's I think it's if you want to talk about I think it's if you want to talk about I think it's if you want to talk about sin, I think I think that's the original sin, I think I think that's the original sin, I think I think that's the original sin of American culture is our delight sin of American culture is our delight sin of American culture is our delight and punitiveness. and punitiveness. and punitiveness. >> Incredible. um incredibly sad, >> Incredible. um incredibly sad, >> Incredible. um incredibly sad, um incredibly important and um incredibly important and um incredibly important and an incredible opportunity for us an incredible opportunity for us an incredible opportunity for us hopefully to navigate out of what seems hopefully to navigate out of what seems hopefully to navigate out of what seems to be one of the deeper troughs of this to be one of the deeper troughs of this to be one of the deeper troughs of this that we've been in, at least since I've that we've been in, at least since I've that we've been in, at least since I've been alive. been alive. been alive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I want to just ask about this cruelty >> I want to just ask about this cruelty >> I want to just ask about this cruelty currency currency currency >> cuz I um >> cuz I um >> cuz I um >> I learned a long time ago that one needs >> I learned a long time ago that one needs >> I learned a long time ago that one needs to be very careful about coming up with to be very careful about coming up with to be very careful about coming up with evolutionary just so stories. It's so evolutionary just so stories. It's so evolutionary just so stories. It's so easy to do. It's so seductive and it can easy to do. It's so seductive and it can easy to do. It's so seductive and it can be oh so wrong. So I I with that um be oh so wrong. So I I with that um be oh so wrong. So I I with that um stated, stated, stated, you know, you said that if somebody you know, you said that if somebody you know, you said that if somebody observes somebody else being harmed, it observes somebody else being harmed, it observes somebody else being harmed, it activates areas of the brain that are activates areas of the brain that are activates areas of the brain that are associated with empathy and presumably a associated with empathy and presumably a associated with empathy and presumably a surge of of uh hormones and surge of of uh hormones and surge of of uh hormones and neurotransmitters that make us feel bad. neurotransmitters that make us feel bad. neurotransmitters that make us feel bad. >> Mhm. if that person was a perpetrator >> Mhm. if that person was a perpetrator >> Mhm. if that person was a perpetrator and we're aware of that, then it feels and we're aware of that, then it feels and we're aware of that, then it feels good. It's it's not just neutral. It's good. It's it's not just neutral. It's good. It's it's not just neutral. It's the it's the in it's the inverse of the it's the in it's the inverse of the it's the in it's the inverse of that. And then you said that Nichi that. And then you said that Nichi that. And then you said that Nichi described it as a cruelty currency. And described it as a cruelty currency. And described it as a cruelty currency. And I've been wondering about something and I've been wondering about something and I've been wondering about something and forgive me. I I don't know if I can forgive me. I I don't know if I can forgive me. I I don't know if I can articulate this very well because I articulate this very well because I articulate this very well because I haven't thought about it out loud. haven't thought about it out loud. haven't thought about it out loud. >> Just think through it. If we return to >> Just think through it. If we return to >> Just think through it. If we return to the idea that every species, including the idea that every species, including the idea that every species, including our own, wants to make more of itself, our own, wants to make more of itself, our own, wants to make more of itself, care for its young, and propagate, that care for its young, and propagate, that care for its young, and propagate, that there's a there are some forces there. there's a there are some forces there. there's a there are some forces there. Clearly, I've often thought about Clearly, I've often thought about Clearly, I've often thought about dopamine as the universal currency of dopamine as the universal currency of dopamine as the universal currency of reward. And certainly, there are other reward. And certainly, there are other reward. And certainly, there are other chemical currencies of punishment and chemical currencies of punishment and chemical currencies of punishment and maybe drops in dopamine are punishment maybe drops in dopamine are punishment maybe drops in dopamine are punishment and increases and etc. Overly and increases and etc. Overly and increases and etc. Overly simplified, but I think we have enough simplified, but I think we have enough simplified, but I think we have enough data to support those statements. And data to support those statements. And data to support those statements. And then I think about how we punish people. then I think about how we punish people. then I think about how we punish people. >> And let's think about um on a on a >> And let's think about um on a on a >> And let's think about um on a on a hockey rink, you put someone in a hockey rink, you put someone in a hockey rink, you put someone in a penalty box, you take them out of play. penalty box, you take them out of play. penalty box, you take them out of play. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um in society, somebody could be >> Um in society, somebody could be >> Um in society, somebody could be cancelled either permanently or they're cancelled either permanently or they're cancelled either permanently or they're they got to like take a break. Yeah. they got to like take a break. Yeah. they got to like take a break. Yeah. >> Or somebody's put in jail. They're taken >> Or somebody's put in jail. They're taken >> Or somebody's put in jail. They're taken out of society. out of society. out of society. >> Yeah. Several examples came up already >> Yeah. Several examples came up already >> Yeah. Several examples came up already today of people who um were able to today of people who um were able to today of people who um were able to propagate their genes or not propagate propagate their genes or not propagate propagate their genes or not propagate their genes um depending on honest like their genes um depending on honest like their genes um depending on honest like finding a partner making the decision finding a partner making the decision finding a partner making the decision about you know consciously or about you know consciously or about you know consciously or unconsciously the genetics their unconsciously the genetics their unconsciously the genetics their personality etc and okay I'm going to personality etc and okay I'm going to personality etc and okay I'm going to create children with this person I'm create children with this person I'm create children with this person I'm going to create new life going to create new life going to create new life versus the IVF doc who cheated in one of versus the IVF doc who cheated in one of versus the IVF doc who cheated in one of the most egregious examples I've ever the most egregious examples I've ever the most egregious examples I've ever heard um creating new life and I think heard um creating new life and I think heard um creating new life and I think Maybe the currency Maybe the currency Maybe the currency that is dopamine is about energy and the that is dopamine is about energy and the that is dopamine is about energy and the opportunity to create more life. It's opportunity to create more life. It's opportunity to create more life. It's like life energy. It gets a little bit like life energy. It gets a little bit like life energy. It gets a little bit woo. woo. woo. >> But when I think about it, it's like if >> But when I think about it, it's like if >> But when I think about it, it's like if somebody gets something by virtue of somebody gets something by virtue of somebody gets something by virtue of their hard work, we expect and want them their hard work, we expect and want them their hard work, we expect and want them to be rewarded for it. If they lie to to be rewarded for it. If they lie to to be rewarded for it. If they lie to get it, you know, like a Bernie Maidolf get it, you know, like a Bernie Maidolf get it, you know, like a Bernie Maidolf who admitted to lying, so I don't think who admitted to lying, so I don't think who admitted to lying, so I don't think I'm gonna get in any trouble by saying I I'm gonna get in any trouble by saying I I'm gonna get in any trouble by saying I think he agreed he that he lied to get think he agreed he that he lied to get think he agreed he that he lied to get all that money, all that money, all that money, >> then he he robbed people of currency. He >> then he he robbed people of currency. He >> then he he robbed people of currency. He got a lot of currency and that and we got a lot of currency and that and we got a lot of currency and that and we hate that. He got more life energy. And hate that. He got more life energy. And hate that. He got more life energy. And when we're punished, we lose even if when we're punished, we lose even if when we're punished, we lose even if there's not an explicit behavioral there's not an explicit behavioral there's not an explicit behavioral punishment punishment punishment >> that hopefully the shame, the regret, it >> that hopefully the shame, the regret, it >> that hopefully the shame, the regret, it takes us out of the running a bit. takes us out of the running a bit. takes us out of the running a bit. >> Yeah. You know, and people will play >> Yeah. You know, and people will play >> Yeah. You know, and people will play these games. They'll try and manipulate these games. They'll try and manipulate these games. They'll try and manipulate around this, but a lot of life is about around this, but a lot of life is about around this, but a lot of life is about doing things that give you more doing things that give you more doing things that give you more opportunity, that give you more life opportunity, that give you more life opportunity, that give you more life energy, that allow you to move forward. energy, that allow you to move forward. energy, that allow you to move forward. And a lot of the ways that we punish And a lot of the ways that we punish And a lot of the ways that we punish people is by trying to take away life people is by trying to take away life people is by trying to take away life energy, forgive the term, uh that we energy, forgive the term, uh that we energy, forgive the term, uh that we feel you didn't deserve that. Yes. feel you didn't deserve that. Yes. feel you didn't deserve that. Yes. >> Or you did something so that you >> Or you did something so that you >> Or you did something so that you shouldn't be able to continue to shouldn't be able to continue to shouldn't be able to continue to propagate your life energy. And so it propagate your life energy. And so it propagate your life energy. And so it gets in, I'm weaving it partially in gets in, I'm weaving it partially in gets in, I'm weaving it partially in with reproduction. with reproduction. with reproduction. But it's really about resources for your But it's really about resources for your But it's really about resources for your family so that your kids can have more. family so that your kids can have more. family so that your kids can have more. But I do think that in the end what But I do think that in the end what But I do think that in the end what we're competing for is energy. And what we're competing for is energy. And what we're competing for is energy. And what we're punishing for is um people that we we're punishing for is um people that we we're punishing for is um people that we think got it unfairly. Yes. think got it unfairly. Yes. think got it unfairly. Yes. >> And we definitely reward people that we >> And we definitely reward people that we >> And we definitely reward people that we that we feel gave us energy through a that we feel gave us energy through a that we feel gave us energy through a song, through art, etc. with money, song, through art, etc. with money, song, through art, etc. with money, which is really opportunity. There's which is really opportunity. There's which is really opportunity. There's nothing inherently valuable about it. nothing inherently valuable about it. nothing inherently valuable about it. Even gold backing it doesn't do that. Even gold backing it doesn't do that. Even gold backing it doesn't do that. So, you know, I So, I feel like in the So, you know, I So, I feel like in the So, you know, I So, I feel like in the end, we're playing an evolutionary game end, we're playing an evolutionary game end, we're playing an evolutionary game for energy and the opportunity to for energy and the opportunity to for energy and the opportunity to propagate our genes. propagate our genes. propagate our genes. >> Okay. So, just some responses to that, >> Okay. So, just some responses to that, >> Okay. So, just some responses to that, like as you were talking, I was reminded like as you were talking, I was reminded like as you were talking, I was reminded of certain things. Um, if you look at of certain things. Um, if you look at of certain things. Um, if you look at punishment, punishment, punishment, um, I I won't even say punishment. If um, I I won't even say punishment. If um, I I won't even say punishment. If you look at enforcement, if you look at you look at enforcement, if you look at you look at enforcement, if you look at enforcement of cooperative norms in enforcement of cooperative norms in enforcement of cooperative norms in non-human species, even in not even in non-human species, even in not even in non-human species, even in not even in animals, a really consistent feature of animals, a really consistent feature of animals, a really consistent feature of that is reducing the the the in the that is reducing the the the in the that is reducing the the the in the punished organisms fitness punished organisms fitness punished organisms fitness opportunities. I'm going to block your opportunities. I'm going to block your opportunities. I'm going to block your access to mates. I'm going to eat your access to mates. I'm going to eat your access to mates. I'm going to eat your eggs so that you know I'm going to um uh eggs so that you know I'm going to um uh eggs so that you know I'm going to um uh wasps reproduce via figs and if the fig wasps reproduce via figs and if the fig wasps reproduce via figs and if the fig tree detects that the wasp is being a tree detects that the wasp is being a tree detects that the wasp is being a lazy pollinator, it will lazy pollinator, it will lazy pollinator, it will rot and wither away the figs that the rot and wither away the figs that the rot and wither away the figs that the wasp has laid its eggs in. it's it's wasp has laid its eggs in. it's it's wasp has laid its eggs in. it's it's denying it reproductive opportunity as a denying it reproductive opportunity as a denying it reproductive opportunity as a as a you know it's a it's a retaliation as a you know it's a it's a retaliation as a you know it's a it's a retaliation against fitness. So I think what you're against fitness. So I think what you're against fitness. So I think what you're picking up on is like you know the ways picking up on is like you know the ways picking up on is like you know the ways that we punish people that we punish people that we punish people um rob them of fitness opportunities um rob them of fitness opportunities um rob them of fitness opportunities that's something that we see as an that's something that we see as an that's something that we see as an evolutionary through line. If we think evolutionary through line. If we think evolutionary through line. If we think about when we're trying to understand about when we're trying to understand about when we're trying to understand animal societies, what counts as a animal societies, what counts as a animal societies, what counts as a punishing behavior? Is it is it is it punishing behavior? Is it is it is it punishing behavior? Is it is it is it reducing their fitness opportunities of reducing their fitness opportunities of reducing their fitness opportunities of the of the punished thing? But the thing the of the punished thing? But the thing the of the punished thing? But the thing about our language is the same like about our language is the same like about our language is the same like penalty box. penalty box. penalty box. You know, a hockey player is put into a You know, a hockey player is put into a You know, a hockey player is put into a penalty box. They don't get beaten with penalty box. They don't get beaten with penalty box. They don't get beaten with a red hot poker when they're in there. a red hot poker when they're in there. a red hot poker when they're in there. They're just not allowed to play the They're just not allowed to play the They're just not allowed to play the game for a period of time. And I think game for a period of time. And I think game for a period of time. And I think this is where people get somewhat this is where people get somewhat this is where people get somewhat confused between retributive punishment confused between retributive punishment confused between retributive punishment and um boundaries to keep the person and and um boundaries to keep the person and and um boundaries to keep the person and their teammates, which is all of us their teammates, which is all of us their teammates, which is all of us since we're in a society, safe, right? since we're in a society, safe, right? since we're in a society, safe, right? So, I'm not against people being in So, I'm not against people being in So, I'm not against people being in prison necessarily. Um, the prison prison necessarily. Um, the prison prison necessarily. Um, the prison abolitionists will be mad at me for abolitionists will be mad at me for abolitionists will be mad at me for saying that, but we've never had a saying that, but we've never had a saying that, but we've never had a society of any sort where there isn't society of any sort where there isn't society of any sort where there isn't some mechanism to say we need to be some mechanism to say we need to be some mechanism to say we need to be protected from this person and this protected from this person and this protected from this person and this person needs an opportunity to have a person needs an opportunity to have a person needs an opportunity to have a timeout from society while they reflect timeout from society while they reflect timeout from society while they reflect on how they're going to behave on how they're going to behave on how they're going to behave differently in the future. But we don't differently in the future. But we don't differently in the future. But we don't have to design that system the way that have to design that system the way that have to design that system the way that we designed it here. Right? There's this we designed it here. Right? There's this we designed it here. Right? There's this Instagram meme which is um, is this a Instagram meme which is um, is this a Instagram meme which is um, is this a Scandinavian prison or a London hotel Scandinavian prison or a London hotel Scandinavian prison or a London hotel room? room? room? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> and people can't tell the difference. >> and people can't tell the difference. >> and people can't tell the difference. It's just a surveillance dome on the It's just a surveillance dome on the It's just a surveillance dome on the ceiling. And that speaks to something, ceiling. And that speaks to something, ceiling. And that speaks to something, which is that the purpose is not to make which is that the purpose is not to make which is that the purpose is not to make the person suffer. The purpose is to put the person suffer. The purpose is to put the person suffer. The purpose is to put them in the penalty box to protect the them in the penalty box to protect the them in the penalty box to protect the rest of us from their behavior. Um, rest of us from their behavior. Um, rest of us from their behavior. Um, how do we get it so that our reactions how do we get it so that our reactions how do we get it so that our reactions to each other when we're holding to each other when we're holding to each other when we're holding boundaries is more like you're in the boundaries is more like you're in the boundaries is more like you're in the penalty box and less like I want to make penalty box and less like I want to make penalty box and less like I want to make you suffer and I'm going to feel you suffer and I'm going to feel you suffer and I'm going to feel delighted that you're suffering. The delighted that you're suffering. The delighted that you're suffering. The Danes are wonderful people um and do Danes are wonderful people um and do Danes are wonderful people um and do seem to have this like sense of morality seem to have this like sense of morality seem to have this like sense of morality and decency and decency and decency >> and social contract >> and social contract >> and social contract >> and social contract. >> and social contract. >> and social contract. >> Although in fairness, I think there's >> Although in fairness, I think there's >> Although in fairness, I think there's been some criticism that some Northern been some criticism that some Northern been some criticism that some Northern European countries have been too lenient European countries have been too lenient European countries have been too lenient on violent offenders and it's made on violent offenders and it's made on violent offenders and it's made society more dangerous. This is a very society more dangerous. This is a very society more dangerous. This is a very complicated literature and it's, you complicated literature and it's, you complicated literature and it's, you know, I'm not saying that it's just know, I'm not saying that it's just know, I'm not saying that it's just their prison system, but they their their prison system, but they their their prison system, but they their rates of violent crime are astonishingly rates of violent crime are astonishingly rates of violent crime are astonishingly low compared to America as a whole in low compared to America as a whole in low compared to America as a whole in particular as compared to Texas. particular as compared to Texas. particular as compared to Texas. >> Yeah. I think that these templates for >> Yeah. I think that these templates for >> Yeah. I think that these templates for punishment versus reward because we punishment versus reward because we punishment versus reward because we haven't really talked much about reward. haven't really talked much about reward. haven't really talked much about reward. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um realizing, you know, that the >> Um realizing, you know, that the >> Um realizing, you know, that the punishment piece can be scaled. Penalty punishment piece can be scaled. Penalty punishment piece can be scaled. Penalty box versus box versus box versus >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> flogging. I uh forgive me for telling >> flogging. I uh forgive me for telling >> flogging. I uh forgive me for telling yet another story. I've been reading a a yet another story. I've been reading a a yet another story. I've been reading a a history of the counterculture movement history of the counterculture movement history of the counterculture movement in in mostly in California recently, but in in mostly in California recently, but in in mostly in California recently, but also the the human evol the human also the the human evol the human also the the human evol the human psychology evolution movement and and it psychology evolution movement and and it psychology evolution movement and and it takes us to big su inevitably. Um takes us to big su inevitably. Um takes us to big su inevitably. Um >> and some interesting Joseph Campbell was >> and some interesting Joseph Campbell was >> and some interesting Joseph Campbell was there and and worked there and wrote there and and worked there and wrote there and and worked there and wrote there. But Hunter Thompson there. But Hunter Thompson there. But Hunter Thompson >> was a security guard up there at uh >> was a security guard up there at uh >> was a security guard up there at uh >> a security guard. Yeah. He at 20 years >> a security guard. Yeah. He at 20 years >> a security guard. Yeah. He at 20 years old, he was hired as a security guard old, he was hired as a security guard old, he was hired as a security guard cuz he had a gun and he could keep order cuz he had a gun and he could keep order cuz he had a gun and he could keep order on uh this place where people would come on uh this place where people would come on uh this place where people would come to use the baths and it was it wasn't to use the baths and it was it wasn't to use the baths and it was it wasn't quite counterculture yet. But there's a quite counterculture yet. But there's a quite counterculture yet. But there's a story and I believe it's true that um uh story and I believe it's true that um uh story and I believe it's true that um uh he was making some homophobic remarks he was making some homophobic remarks he was making some homophobic remarks and there were some gay bodybuilders up and there were some gay bodybuilders up and there were some gay bodybuilders up from Venice, California. So the group from Venice, California. So the group from Venice, California. So the group decided what his punishment would be. decided what his punishment would be. decided what his punishment would be. His punishment would be that these His punishment would be that these His punishment would be that these bodybuilders were going to hold him over bodybuilders were going to hold him over bodybuilders were going to hold him over the cliffs above the ocean, which is the cliffs above the ocean, which is the cliffs above the ocean, which is maybe 3 400 feet to his drop until he maybe 3 400 feet to his drop until he maybe 3 400 feet to his drop until he renounced homophobia, renounced homophobia, renounced homophobia, >> which eventually he did >> which eventually he did >> which eventually he did >> and then they let him back on and then >> and then they let him back on and then >> and then they let him back on and then he was able to live on and work and like he was able to live on and work and like he was able to live on and work and like they're like, "Okay, he's cured." You they're like, "Okay, he's cured." You they're like, "Okay, he's cured." You know? know? know? >> So, I mean, it's a ridiculous example. >> So, I mean, it's a ridiculous example. >> So, I mean, it's a ridiculous example. On the other hand, everyone participated On the other hand, everyone participated On the other hand, everyone participated in this decision in this decision in this decision >> and apparently he was very frightened >> and apparently he was very frightened >> and apparently he was very frightened and I don't know, I didn't know him, but and I don't know, I didn't know him, but and I don't know, I didn't know him, but apparently he adjusted at least his apparently he adjusted at least his apparently he adjusted at least his behavior. behavior. behavior. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Kind of an interesting, silly. >> Kind of an interesting, silly. >> Kind of an interesting, silly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, funny enough, but serious >> You know, funny enough, but serious >> You know, funny enough, but serious enough example. Nowadays, it would have enough example. Nowadays, it would have enough example. Nowadays, it would have be very different, right? He would have be very different, right? He would have be very different, right? He would have lost his job and no amount of apology lost his job and no amount of apology lost his job and no amount of apology would have rescued his job. Which on the would have rescued his job. Which on the would have rescued his job. Which on the one hand, you could say, okay, well, one hand, you could say, okay, well, one hand, you could say, okay, well, he's homophobic. They didn't want anyone he's homophobic. They didn't want anyone he's homophobic. They didn't want anyone homophobic working there. on the other homophobic working there. on the other homophobic working there. on the other hand, the opportunity to potentially hand, the opportunity to potentially hand, the opportunity to potentially convert his thinking is lost. And so I convert his thinking is lost. And so I convert his thinking is lost. And so I think that's what you're talking about think that's what you're talking about think that's what you're talking about that there are certain forms of that there are certain forms of that there are certain forms of punishment that give the opportunity not punishment that give the opportunity not punishment that give the opportunity not just to protect others but to um to just to protect others but to um to just to protect others but to um to really help people evolve their moral really help people evolve their moral really help people evolve their moral concept. concept. concept. >> Yes. I think sometimes people talk about >> Yes. I think sometimes people talk about >> Yes. I think sometimes people talk about this as the difference between a this as the difference between a this as the difference between a backward-looking conception of justice backward-looking conception of justice backward-looking conception of justice versus a forwardlooking conception of versus a forwardlooking conception of versus a forwardlooking conception of justice. So, a backward-looking justice. So, a backward-looking justice. So, a backward-looking consumption of justice, you're you are consumption of justice, you're you are consumption of justice, you're you are often caught in this again this rescue often caught in this again this rescue often caught in this again this rescue blame trap, which is blame trap, which is blame trap, which is um does he deserve to p be punished? Oh, um does he deserve to p be punished? Oh, um does he deserve to p be punished? Oh, maybe he doesn't deserve to be punished maybe he doesn't deserve to be punished maybe he doesn't deserve to be punished that badly because of these extinuating that badly because of these extinuating that badly because of these extinuating circumstances. Oh, but he did this circumstances. Oh, but he did this circumstances. Oh, but he did this horrible thing. He made these homophobic horrible thing. He made these homophobic horrible thing. He made these homophobic um comments. Whereas a forward-looking um comments. Whereas a forward-looking um comments. Whereas a forward-looking conception of justice is given that we conception of justice is given that we conception of justice is given that we are are where we are today and given the are are where we are today and given the are are where we are today and given the harm that he has caused and given the harm that he has caused and given the harm that he has caused and given the brain and the body that he has, how do brain and the body that he has, how do brain and the body that he has, how do we best maximize our chances of other we best maximize our chances of other we best maximize our chances of other people being protracted from future harm people being protracted from future harm people being protracted from future harm and him changing him having if even if and him changing him having if even if and him changing him having if even if he doesn't change in his heart of he doesn't change in his heart of he doesn't change in his heart of hearts, changing the words that come out hearts, changing the words that come out hearts, changing the words that come out of his mouth, taking responsibility for of his mouth, taking responsibility for of his mouth, taking responsibility for what he says. The rule in my house with what he says. The rule in my house with what he says. The rule in my house with my kids is you're not allowed to tell me my kids is you're not allowed to tell me my kids is you're not allowed to tell me about what your brother did. about what your brother did. about what your brother did. Your brother will tell me about what Your brother will tell me about what Your brother will tell me about what your brother did and you'll tell me your brother did and you'll tell me your brother did and you'll tell me about what you did and then we're going about what you did and then we're going about what you did and then we're going to talk about what you want to happen in to talk about what you want to happen in to talk about what you want to happen in the future and then we're going to talk the future and then we're going to talk the future and then we're going to talk about what everyone needs to do so that about what everyone needs to do so that about what everyone needs to do so that we can not have this argument. But this we can not have this argument. But this we can not have this argument. But this constant like attempt to figure out like constant like attempt to figure out like constant like attempt to figure out like how much does he deserve to hurt, I feel how much does he deserve to hurt, I feel how much does he deserve to hurt, I feel like is a it's it's an abyss, you know? like is a it's it's an abyss, you know? like is a it's it's an abyss, you know? You just drown in it. And you drown in You just drown in it. And you drown in You just drown in it. And you drown in it with yourself, too. Like if you've it with yourself, too. Like if you've it with yourself, too. Like if you've made comments that you regret yourself, made comments that you regret yourself, made comments that you regret yourself, like how much do I deserve to be like how much do I deserve to be like how much do I deserve to be punished for that versus but I can punished for that versus but I can punished for that versus but I can remember all the extenduating remember all the extenduating remember all the extenduating circumstances. No, it's what do I need circumstances. No, it's what do I need circumstances. No, it's what do I need to do better in the future and what do to do better in the future and what do to do better in the future and what do other people need to know that they are other people need to know that they are other people need to know that they are safe around me now which might be you safe around me now which might be you safe around me now which might be you know might be a penalty box but you know know might be a penalty box but you know know might be a penalty box but you know thinking about punishment not as again thinking about punishment not as again thinking about punishment not as again this is it's not about some you know this is it's not about some you know this is it's not about some you know justice for attempt to weigh the scales justice for attempt to weigh the scales justice for attempt to weigh the scales in the past it's about how do we make in the past it's about how do we make in the past it's about how do we make things better in the future how do we things better in the future how do we things better in the future how do we keep people safe and repair things in keep people safe and repair things in keep people safe and repair things in the future the future the future >> before moving to reward One thing that >> before moving to reward One thing that >> before moving to reward One thing that occurs to me is people seem to integrate occurs to me is people seem to integrate occurs to me is people seem to integrate what people deserve now on the backdrop what people deserve now on the backdrop what people deserve now on the backdrop of all the they had to put up with of all the they had to put up with of all the they had to put up with in the past. Yeah. Not just from that in the past. Yeah. Not just from that in the past. Yeah. Not just from that person. I feel like we are we're all person. I feel like we are we're all person. I feel like we are we're all integrating on the backdrop of how we integrating on the backdrop of how we integrating on the backdrop of how we were treated. were treated. were treated. >> Um how much pain and frustration we've >> Um how much pain and frustration we've >> Um how much pain and frustration we've had to endure. And that weaves in with had to endure. And that weaves in with had to endure. And that weaves in with how much forgiveness we have for when how much forgiveness we have for when how much forgiveness we have for when people screw up or when they're like people screw up or when they're like people screw up or when they're like being just jerks or they're being being just jerks or they're being being just jerks or they're being outright awful. So I feel like it's an outright awful. So I feel like it's an outright awful. So I feel like it's an almost impossible problem to wrap our almost impossible problem to wrap our almost impossible problem to wrap our arms around arms around arms around except at the very extremes. So I think except at the very extremes. So I think except at the very extremes. So I think when people feel that they've been when people feel that they've been when people feel that they've been victimized victimized victimized accurately or inaccurately accurately or inaccurately accurately or inaccurately that amps up that retributive urge and that amps up that retributive urge and that amps up that retributive urge and again I'm not saying that you know this again I'm not saying that you know this again I'm not saying that you know this is just some people I I think this is is just some people I I think this is is just some people I I think this is part of being human that when we feel part of being human that when we feel part of being human that when we feel hurt we want to hurt back and we want hurt we want to hurt back and we want hurt we want to hurt back and we want the person to hurt that hurt us to be the person to hurt that hurt us to be the person to hurt that hurt us to be hurt and we're trying to keep some hurt and we're trying to keep some hurt and we're trying to keep some ledger of power and and victim hood um ledger of power and and victim hood um ledger of power and and victim hood um in our minds. I think that's to some in our minds. I think that's to some in our minds. I think that's to some extent an inescapable emotion of being extent an inescapable emotion of being extent an inescapable emotion of being human, human, human, but we don't just have to respond of our but we don't just have to respond of our but we don't just have to respond of our emotions. We don't have to let that emotions. We don't have to let that emotions. We don't have to let that lead, right? We don't have to let that lead, right? We don't have to let that lead, right? We don't have to let that run the show. So, I do think that you're run the show. So, I do think that you're run the show. So, I do think that you're right that in all situations, we're right that in all situations, we're right that in all situations, we're thinking about the situation and also thinking about the situation and also thinking about the situation and also the backdrop of the situation and the backdrop of the situation and the backdrop of the situation and thinking very much about power. I mean thinking very much about power. I mean thinking very much about power. I mean going back to what we can learn about going back to what we can learn about going back to what we can learn about punishment from looking at non-human punishment from looking at non-human punishment from looking at non-human animals or not even not animals even animals or not even not animals even animals or not even not animals even trees even bacteria is who is punished trees even bacteria is who is punished trees even bacteria is who is punished and who is the punisher is always a and who is the punisher is always a and who is the punisher is always a statement about the social roles within statement about the social roles within statement about the social roles within a group and those social roles are a group and those social roles are a group and those social roles are structured by power. Um, I talk in my structured by power. Um, I talk in my structured by power. Um, I talk in my book about how you can have alpha queen book about how you can have alpha queen book about how you can have alpha queen wasps and they eat some proportion of wasps and they eat some proportion of wasps and they eat some proportion of the eggs of the beta queens in their in the eggs of the beta queens in their in the eggs of the beta queens in their in their colony. But if she eats too many their colony. But if she eats too many their colony. But if she eats too many of the eggs, her sisters will bite her. of the eggs, her sisters will bite her. of the eggs, her sisters will bite her. They will be like, "Okay, you're allowed They will be like, "Okay, you're allowed They will be like, "Okay, you're allowed this much power, but no more, and we're this much power, but no more, and we're this much power, but no more, and we're going to enforce those limits." So, I going to enforce those limits." So, I going to enforce those limits." So, I think a lot of the debates that we're think a lot of the debates that we're think a lot of the debates that we're having about um uh punishment in our having about um uh punishment in our having about um uh punishment in our society, who should be punished, are society, who should be punished, are society, who should be punished, are really debates about who gets to have really debates about who gets to have really debates about who gets to have power and to what degree power and to what degree power and to what degree >> in our society. >> in our society. >> in our society. >> What's interesting to me is how much the >> What's interesting to me is how much the >> What's interesting to me is how much the language of choice is leveraged or used language of choice is leveraged or used language of choice is leveraged or used in those debates. people so commonly in those debates. people so commonly in those debates. people so commonly once you listen for it it's it's really once you listen for it it's it's really once you listen for it it's it's really really common that as soon as someone really common that as soon as someone really common that as soon as someone wants to justify punishment they don't wants to justify punishment they don't wants to justify punishment they don't say um I'm justifying this to prevent say um I'm justifying this to prevent say um I'm justifying this to prevent harm or I'm justifying this to maintain harm or I'm justifying this to maintain harm or I'm justifying this to maintain or change a power structure they say or change a power structure they say or change a power structure they say something about how the person being something about how the person being something about how the person being punished chose that they they chose to punished chose that they they chose to punished chose that they they chose to be there or they chose this this thing I be there or they chose this this thing I be there or they chose this this thing I think a lot of our think a lot of our think a lot of our um focus on choice in American culture um focus on choice in American culture um focus on choice in American culture is really an interest in being entitled is really an interest in being entitled is really an interest in being entitled to to punish people. If you're on a to to punish people. If you're on a to to punish people. If you're on a plane and they're like um they're trying plane and they're like um they're trying plane and they're like um they're trying to get people to check their bags, to get people to check their bags, to get people to check their bags, they'll never say that the the airline they'll never say that the the airline they'll never say that the the airline chose to overbook the plane. They'll say chose to overbook the plane. They'll say chose to overbook the plane. They'll say if you've chosen to bring more than one if you've chosen to bring more than one if you've chosen to bring more than one bag with you, then you're going to need bag with you, then you're going to need bag with you, then you're going to need to check it, right? Which is like you to check it, right? Which is like you to check it, right? Which is like you you chose, so therefore you can be you chose, so therefore you can be you chose, so therefore you can be inconvenienced. You'll hear it inconvenienced. You'll hear it inconvenienced. You'll hear it everywhere. Now, everywhere. Now, everywhere. Now, >> I'm gonna listen for this. Okay. Reward. >> I'm gonna listen for this. Okay. Reward. >> I'm gonna listen for this. Okay. Reward. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um, the good stuff. When I was a kid, Um, the good stuff. When I was a kid, Um, the good stuff. When I was a kid, we'd go to dinner and we didn't go out we'd go to dinner and we didn't go out we'd go to dinner and we didn't go out to dinner very often. We It just wasn't to dinner very often. We It just wasn't to dinner very often. We It just wasn't our family. But, um, when we did, we our family. But, um, when we did, we our family. But, um, when we did, we could get soda. We couldn't have it at could get soda. We couldn't have it at could get soda. We couldn't have it at home. home. home. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I would drink some soda. Then my >> And I would drink some soda. Then my >> And I would drink some soda. Then my sister would make sure that she drank a sister would make sure that she drank a sister would make sure that she drank a little less soda so that at any point in little less soda so that at any point in little less soda so that at any point in the meal, she had more soda than me, the meal, she had more soda than me, the meal, she had more soda than me, even though we started off with more even though we started off with more even though we started off with more soda. soda. soda. >> Classic sibling thing. >> Classic sibling thing. >> Classic sibling thing. >> Okay. So, she's a wonderful person. I >> Okay. So, she's a wonderful person. I >> Okay. So, she's a wonderful person. I adore my sister. And yet, she had to win adore my sister. And yet, she had to win adore my sister. And yet, she had to win that competition. that competition. that competition. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, >> And so, >> And so, >> that's some primal stuff there. >> that's some primal stuff there. >> that's some primal stuff there. >> That's some primal stuff. I don't know >> That's some primal stuff. I don't know >> That's some primal stuff. I don't know if it's the hypothalammus, but it's if it's the hypothalammus, but it's if it's the hypothalammus, but it's [laughter] it's it's definitely um [laughter] it's it's definitely um [laughter] it's it's definitely um >> Do my parents love me more? >> Do my parents love me more? >> Do my parents love me more? >> Exactly. And I And if you feed two dogs >> Exactly. And I And if you feed two dogs >> Exactly. And I And if you feed two dogs at once, you know, because I had a at once, you know, because I had a at once, you know, because I had a bulldog mastiff. My girlfriend at the bulldog mastiff. My girlfriend at the bulldog mastiff. My girlfriend at the time had a had a pitbull. And whoever time had a had a pitbull. And whoever time had a had a pitbull. And whoever got food first and I swear they're got food first and I swear they're got food first and I swear they're paying attention to the size of the paying attention to the size of the paying attention to the size of the little but I mean I mean they are little but I mean I mean they are little but I mean I mean they are processing that at laser speed. Um processing that at laser speed. Um processing that at laser speed. Um what's going on? We we pay attention to what's going on? We we pay attention to what's going on? We we pay attention to how much people are rewarded. how much people are rewarded. how much people are rewarded. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And we get something about rewards that >> And we get something about rewards that >> And we get something about rewards that go beyond just the reward. I mean again go beyond just the reward. I mean again go beyond just the reward. I mean again we are a species that's evolved in we are a species that's evolved in we are a species that's evolved in cooperation and there's really nothing cooperation and there's really nothing cooperation and there's really nothing worse for a cooperative society than worse for a cooperative society than worse for a cooperative society than freeloading someone being rewarded freeloading someone being rewarded freeloading someone being rewarded without putting effort into the without putting effort into the without putting effort into the collective. There's this great study collective. There's this great study collective. There's this great study that was run by these economists that was run by these economists that was run by these economists where people were put into these online where people were put into these online where people were put into these online basically like online, you know, kind of basically like online, you know, kind of basically like online, you know, kind of societies where they could interact with societies where they could interact with societies where they could interact with one another and you could pick which one another and you could pick which one another and you could pick which societ which village did you want to societ which village did you want to societ which village did you want to join and you could switch villages at join and you could switch villages at join and you could switch villages at any time. any time. any time. And in both villages, everyone who was And in both villages, everyone who was And in both villages, everyone who was in that society, society, online in that society, society, online in that society, society, online society, online game was given an society, online game was given an society, online game was given an allocation of digital money and they had allocation of digital money and they had allocation of digital money and they had to decide how much are they going to to decide how much are they going to to decide how much are they going to donate from their personal wallet into donate from their personal wallet into donate from their personal wallet into the collective. And so there's a that's the collective. And so there's a that's the collective. And so there's a that's a classic economic trade-off game, which a classic economic trade-off game, which a classic economic trade-off game, which is what's best for my self-interest is is what's best for my self-interest is is what's best for my self-interest is if I don't contribute anything and if I don't contribute anything and if I don't contribute anything and everyone else contributes the maximum. everyone else contributes the maximum. everyone else contributes the maximum. and then I get to benefit from the and then I get to benefit from the and then I get to benefit from the common good. Right? That's the common good. Right? That's the common good. Right? That's the freeloading problem. But if everyone freeloading problem. But if everyone freeloading problem. But if everyone does that, then there's nothing in the does that, then there's nothing in the does that, then there's nothing in the common good. Okay? So, in one of these common good. Okay? So, in one of these common good. Okay? So, in one of these societies, people were given, this is societies, people were given, this is societies, people were given, this is back to reward and punishment, people back to reward and punishment, people back to reward and punishment, people were given the ability to see how much were given the ability to see how much were given the ability to see how much other people donated other people donated other people donated and could pay to punish people who they and could pay to punish people who they and could pay to punish people who they didn't think had donated enough. So, didn't think had donated enough. So, didn't think had donated enough. So, we're we're in a society and if we're in we're we're in a society and if we're in we're we're in a society and if we're in the the punishing society, then I can the the punishing society, then I can the the punishing society, then I can see that you got rewarded with this and see that you got rewarded with this and see that you got rewarded with this and then you didn't contribute enough of it then you didn't contribute enough of it then you didn't contribute enough of it back to the collective good and then I back to the collective good and then I back to the collective good and then I could pay my own money to take away some could pay my own money to take away some could pay my own money to take away some of yours. And in the other society, of yours. And in the other society, of yours. And in the other society, people got to make their decisions, but people got to make their decisions, but people got to make their decisions, but they were anonymous and you couldn't they were anonymous and you couldn't they were anonymous and you couldn't respond to other people's decisions. The respond to other people's decisions. The respond to other people's decisions. The rules are transparent. It's not rules are transparent. It's not rules are transparent. It's not mysterious what's happening. mysterious what's happening. mysterious what's happening. And at the beginning of the experiment, And at the beginning of the experiment, And at the beginning of the experiment, participants are allowed to pick like participants are allowed to pick like participants are allowed to pick like which village do I want to be in? And which village do I want to be in? And which village do I want to be in? And they think, I'm I'm against punishment they think, I'm I'm against punishment they think, I'm I'm against punishment and I don't want other people to know my and I don't want other people to know my and I don't want other people to know my business. So, I'm going to go to the business. So, I'm going to go to the business. So, I'm going to go to the nonpunishing society. nonpunishing society. nonpunishing society. And then it basically collapses in like And then it basically collapses in like And then it basically collapses in like three rounds because everyone's keeping three rounds because everyone's keeping three rounds because everyone's keeping their stuff to themselves and not their stuff to themselves and not their stuff to themselves and not contributing to the good. A few people contributing to the good. A few people contributing to the good. A few people pick the the society where they have the pick the the society where they have the pick the the society where they have the opportunity to punish from the very opportunity to punish from the very opportunity to punish from the very beginning beginning beginning and they immediately establish a strong and they immediately establish a strong and they immediately establish a strong norm of you. If you get a lot, you give norm of you. If you get a lot, you give norm of you. If you get a lot, you give a lot. There's not going to be some a lot. There's not going to be some a lot. There's not going to be some asymmetry between how much you're asymmetry between how much you're asymmetry between how much you're taking, how much you're keeping for taking, how much you're keeping for taking, how much you're keeping for yourself, and how much you're yourself, and how much you're yourself, and how much you're contributing to our collective society. contributing to our collective society. contributing to our collective society. By the end of the game, the By the end of the game, the By the end of the game, the non-punishing society has collapsed and non-punishing society has collapsed and non-punishing society has collapsed and everyone has migrated to the punishing everyone has migrated to the punishing everyone has migrated to the punishing society. And they [clears throat] are society. And they [clears throat] are society. And they [clears throat] are incredibly attuned to freeloading. incredibly attuned to freeloading. incredibly attuned to freeloading. >> So your sister is like, he's not getting >> So your sister is like, he's not getting >> So your sister is like, he's not getting more soda than me, is he? more soda than me, is he? more soda than me, is he? >> And I want to if I'm going to feel >> And I want to if I'm going to feel >> And I want to if I'm going to feel something, I want to feel like I have something, I want to feel like I have something, I want to feel like I have more soda than my brother does. I told more soda than my brother does. I told more soda than my brother does. I told my kids last week, I was like, I'm going my kids last week, I was like, I'm going my kids last week, I was like, I'm going to just start acting like a capriccious to just start acting like a capriccious to just start acting like a capriccious dictator and just like make no more dictator and just like make no more dictator and just like make no more attempt to keep things even, Stephen, so attempt to keep things even, Stephen, so attempt to keep things even, Stephen, so that you can understand what unfair that you can understand what unfair that you can understand what unfair really feels like because I'm so sick of really feels like because I'm so sick of really feels like because I'm so sick of this like this like this like Jonah got half a [laughter] Jonah got half a [laughter] Jonah got half a [laughter] chocolate chip more than me and his chocolate chip more than me and his chocolate chip more than me and his cookie. Why is seeing someone punished cookie. Why is seeing someone punished cookie. Why is seeing someone punished if they've done something wrong? Why if they've done something wrong? Why if they've done something wrong? Why dopamine? Why that? It's because it is dopamine? Why that? It's because it is dopamine? Why that? It's because it is so foundational to our survival as a so foundational to our survival as a so foundational to our survival as a cooperative species to to have social cooperative species to to have social cooperative species to to have social norms and see that they're enforced and norms and see that they're enforced and norms and see that they're enforced and and seeing someone get rewarded when it and seeing someone get rewarded when it and seeing someone get rewarded when it doesn't feel like it's fair, I think doesn't feel like it's fair, I think doesn't feel like it's fair, I think activates all of our freeloader alert, activates all of our freeloader alert, activates all of our freeloader alert, freeloader alert, like we cannot have freeloader alert, like we cannot have freeloader alert, like we cannot have this module. Um Paul Bloom who's a child this module. Um Paul Bloom who's a child this module. Um Paul Bloom who's a child psychologist has a great paper where he psychologist has a great paper where he psychologist has a great paper where he says people prefer uh inequality to says people prefer uh inequality to says people prefer uh inequality to unfairness. unfairness. unfairness. It's not things being unequal that they It's not things being unequal that they It's not things being unequal that they necessarily necessarily necessarily dislike. It's things being unfair. It's dislike. It's things being unfair. It's dislike. It's things being unfair. It's within it's when the inequality feels within it's when the inequality feels within it's when the inequality feels unfair that people are like unfair that people are like unfair that people are like >> no >> no >> no >> these days I love observing online >> these days I love observing online >> these days I love observing online behavior. behavior. behavior. >> That makes one of [laughter] us. It's >> That makes one of [laughter] us. It's >> That makes one of [laughter] us. It's the science. It's just the scientist in the science. It's just the scientist in the science. It's just the scientist in me, you know. I just Well, I I feel like me, you know. I just Well, I I feel like me, you know. I just Well, I I feel like there's something to be learned from it there's something to be learned from it there's something to be learned from it >> if one has a little bit of like if >> if one has a little bit of like if >> if one has a little bit of like if >> if you can have some distance from it. >> if you can have some distance from it. >> if you can have some distance from it. And um And um And um >> I think uh I don't spend all my time in >> I think uh I don't spend all my time in >> I think uh I don't spend all my time in the comment section. Um but it's the comment section. Um but it's the comment section. Um but it's sometimes interesting things play out sometimes interesting things play out sometimes interesting things play out and and you can see this, you know, and and and you can see this, you know, and and and you can see this, you know, and it's it's really yeah, this this concept it's it's really yeah, this this concept it's it's really yeah, this this concept of of kind of who gets money, attention, of of kind of who gets money, attention, of of kind of who gets money, attention, etc., which is really life and gets to etc., which is really life and gets to etc., which is really life and gets to keep playing the game of life keep playing the game of life keep playing the game of life >> who's getting batted back and penalty. >> who's getting batted back and penalty. >> who's getting batted back and penalty. And I think fairness lets us rest. Like And I think fairness lets us rest. Like And I think fairness lets us rest. Like the sense that there's fairness lets us the sense that there's fairness lets us the sense that there's fairness lets us rest. rest. rest. >> Yeah. I think that um >> Yeah. I think that um >> Yeah. I think that um some people more than others like the some people more than others like the some people more than others like the the sense of um seeing injustice, the sense of um seeing injustice, the sense of um seeing injustice, feeling injustice activates people and feeling injustice activates people and feeling injustice activates people and it activates them in a direction it activates them in a direction it activates them in a direction typically that they don't get paid for typically that they don't get paid for typically that they don't get paid for that is taking away from their other um that is taking away from their other um that is taking away from their other um life energy. I mean the media I'm not life energy. I mean the media I'm not life energy. I mean the media I'm not going to blame social media but or the going to blame social media but or the going to blame social media but or the algorithms that's no longer a good algorithms that's no longer a good algorithms that's no longer a good argument uh in my opinion but I do think argument uh in my opinion but I do think argument uh in my opinion but I do think that that that >> there are monetization systems that try >> there are monetization systems that try >> there are monetization systems that try and hijack people's sense of injustice and hijack people's sense of injustice and hijack people's sense of injustice to drive more clicks and views more to drive more clicks and views more to drive more clicks and views more advertising and that's how you that's advertising and that's how you that's advertising and that's how you that's how you get people moving forward but how you get people moving forward but how you get people moving forward but they're not really the illusion is that they're not really the illusion is that they're not really the illusion is that they're moving forward. that in fact the they're moving forward. that in fact the they're moving forward. that in fact the the financial incentive there is to just the financial incentive there is to just the financial incentive there is to just keep people on a treadmill where they keep people on a treadmill where they keep people on a treadmill where they feel like they see more injustice and feel like they see more injustice and feel like they see more injustice and they're angrier and angrier and they they're angrier and angrier and they they're angrier and angrier and they just continue and nothing changes. And I just continue and nothing changes. And I just continue and nothing changes. And I I I'm not dystopian, but I think we're I I'm not dystopian, but I think we're I I'm not dystopian, but I think we're one has to be careful not to get caught one has to be careful not to get caught one has to be careful not to get caught up in that. up in that. up in that. >> It's very different than a a game like a >> It's very different than a a game like a >> It's very different than a a game like a game of football or who gets more soda. game of football or who gets more soda. game of football or who gets more soda. Um I think that right now Um I think that right now Um I think that right now who gets rewarded seems to be uh more who gets rewarded seems to be uh more who gets rewarded seems to be uh more under control than who gets punished. under control than who gets punished. under control than who gets punished. like we feel like the I think a lot of like we feel like the I think a lot of like we feel like the I think a lot of people feel like the bad guys and gals people feel like the bad guys and gals people feel like the bad guys and gals are outside of our control. So now it's are outside of our control. So now it's are outside of our control. So now it's a question of just making sure people a question of just making sure people a question of just making sure people don't get rewarded. As you're talking, don't get rewarded. As you're talking, don't get rewarded. As you're talking, I'm thinking again about that study I I'm thinking again about that study I I'm thinking again about that study I was describing where you have the two was describing where you have the two was describing where you have the two villages and the people who are and the people who are who were most influential in setting the who were most influential in setting the who were most influential in setting the norms of the society that ended up norms of the society that ended up norms of the society that ended up thriving in this online game were people thriving in this online game were people thriving in this online game were people who engaged in a lot of punishing and who engaged in a lot of punishing and who engaged in a lot of punishing and rewarding public punishing and rewarding rewarding public punishing and rewarding rewarding public punishing and rewarding behavior from the very beginning. And behavior from the very beginning. And behavior from the very beginning. And again, I think this goes back to again, I think this goes back to again, I think this goes back to punishment and reward is is a way of punishment and reward is is a way of punishment and reward is is a way of establishing power, right? What is it is establishing power, right? What is it is establishing power, right? What is it is a way of asserting power over what are a way of asserting power over what are a way of asserting power over what are the rules? What are the rules in this the rules? What are the rules in this the rules? What are the rules in this society? Like what are we doing here? society? Like what are we doing here? society? Like what are we doing here? I'm picking a society that has these I'm picking a society that has these I'm picking a society that has these rules and I'm going to enforce them. rules and I'm going to enforce them. rules and I'm going to enforce them. We now live in this this community We now live in this this community We now live in this this community collapse where we don't live in isolated collapse where we don't live in isolated collapse where we don't live in isolated villages. We don't live in small tribes villages. We don't live in small tribes villages. We don't live in small tribes where we interact with each other. where we interact with each other. where we interact with each other. reciprocally over time in dense kin reciprocally over time in dense kin reciprocally over time in dense kin networks. We are massively connected networks. We are massively connected networks. We are massively connected with a lot of one-time interactions with a lot of one-time interactions with a lot of one-time interactions between strangers. between strangers. between strangers. And as you were talking, I was just And as you were talking, I was just And as you were talking, I was just like, is that taking a psychology that's like, is that taking a psychology that's like, is that taking a psychology that's evolved to be in connection in a small evolved to be in connection in a small evolved to be in connection in a small community where the purpose of rewarding community where the purpose of rewarding community where the purpose of rewarding and punishing is to establish the norms and punishing is to establish the norms and punishing is to establish the norms for your group, but now there isn't a for your group, but now there isn't a for your group, but now there isn't a group. There's no one group. There was group. There's no one group. There was group. There's no one group. There was not a cohesive group. And so people are not a cohesive group. And so people are not a cohesive group. And so people are they're essentially arguing about what they're essentially arguing about what they're essentially arguing about what are the rules are going to be. But it's are the rules are going to be. But it's are the rules are going to be. But it's like they're playing a game and they're like they're playing a game and they're like they're playing a game and they're arguing about what the rules are in the arguing about what the rules are in the arguing about what the rules are in the middle of the game. And if you feel like middle of the game. And if you feel like middle of the game. And if you feel like the only tool available for you is to the only tool available for you is to the only tool available for you is to just ratchet up the consequences just ratchet up the consequences just ratchet up the consequences and and yell louder, right? But yell and and yell louder, right? But yell and and yell louder, right? But yell louder into the void. It's not a real louder into the void. It's not a real louder into the void. It's not a real community. Like X is not a it's it's the community. Like X is not a it's it's the community. Like X is not a it's it's the internet, right? Like that is not who internet, right? Like that is not who internet, right? Like that is not who you're living next to. you're living next to. you're living next to. >> I love doing this podcast, but the >> I love doing this podcast, but the >> I love doing this podcast, but the reason I continue it is for the reason I continue it is for the reason I continue it is for the opportunity to have conversations like opportunity to have conversations like opportunity to have conversations like this this this >> in person. Yes. >> in person. Yes. >> in person. Yes. >> Yeah. With with you. I get more >> Yeah. With with you. I get more >> Yeah. With with you. I get more intellectual stimulation from this job, intellectual stimulation from this job, intellectual stimulation from this job, frankly, than I did when I was in my frankly, than I did when I was in my frankly, than I did when I was in my office at Stanford every day because office at Stanford every day because office at Stanford every day because people were we were all so busy. people were we were all so busy. people were we were all so busy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it's also so people can hear the >> But it's also so people can hear the >> But it's also so people can hear the conversations because what you're conversations because what you're conversations because what you're describing is very real. It things are describing is very real. It things are describing is very real. It things are so diffused now. Um so diffused now. Um so diffused now. Um and there isn't really an opt out ex and there isn't really an opt out ex and there isn't really an opt out ex option. option. option. >> Um is that is that legitimate? Can you >> Um is that is that legitimate? Can you >> Um is that is that legitimate? Can you say that? You can't really opt out. Um say that? You can't really opt out. Um say that? You can't really opt out. Um [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I'm opting for opt out option being a I'm opting for opt out option being a I'm opting for opt out option being a legitimate statement. um you know where legitimate statement. um you know where legitimate statement. um you know where would where would one go? It's a I'm not would where would one go? It's a I'm not would where would one go? It's a I'm not sure we can get completely offline. Um I sure we can get completely offline. Um I sure we can get completely offline. Um I think it's possible in small amounts but think it's possible in small amounts but think it's possible in small amounts but certainly younger generation you I've certainly younger generation you I've certainly younger generation you I've talked to my niece about this like no no talked to my niece about this like no no talked to my niece about this like no no dice it's not happening. So the question dice it's not happening. So the question dice it's not happening. So the question is I guess how big is your sphere of is I guess how big is your sphere of is I guess how big is your sphere of >> visibility? I think that's a really hard >> visibility? I think that's a really hard >> visibility? I think that's a really hard question. There's a British writer question. There's a British writer question. There's a British writer Oliver Burkeman who [clears throat] has Oliver Burkeman who [clears throat] has Oliver Burkeman who [clears throat] has written he has this great newsletter written he has this great newsletter written he has this great newsletter called the imperfectionist called the imperfectionist called the imperfectionist >> and >> and >> and one piece of advice he gives is about one piece of advice he gives is about one piece of advice he gives is about you know letting your energy and your you know letting your energy and your you know letting your energy and your heart be local heart be local heart be local >> and for me I feel like that's a real >> and for me I feel like that's a real >> and for me I feel like that's a real struggle to think about how do you not struggle to think about how do you not struggle to think about how do you not harden your heart to people that are harden your heart to people that are harden your heart to people that are suffering right at the same time suffering right at the same time suffering right at the same time How do you let if you're keeping How do you let if you're keeping How do you let if you're keeping yourself tender, if you're keeping yourself tender, if you're keeping yourself tender, if you're keeping yourself attuned to caring about yourself attuned to caring about yourself attuned to caring about fairness, caring about injustice, caring fairness, caring about injustice, caring fairness, caring about injustice, caring about the vulnerable, about the vulnerable, about the vulnerable, where is that energy going? And if it's where is that energy going? And if it's where is that energy going? And if it's just going back to the internet, I'm not just going back to the internet, I'm not just going back to the internet, I'm not necessarily sure that it's really necessarily sure that it's really necessarily sure that it's really helping. But if it's to how does my helping. But if it's to how does my helping. But if it's to how does my neighborhood organize a winter coat neighborhood organize a winter coat neighborhood organize a winter coat drive or do I make sure that you know I drive or do I make sure that you know I drive or do I make sure that you know I fill up a stocking for fill up a stocking for fill up a stocking for um children whose families can't afford um children whose families can't afford um children whose families can't afford Christmas gifts for my children's Christmas gifts for my children's Christmas gifts for my children's preschool. That feels so much more preschool. That feels so much more preschool. That feels so much more satisfying than any amount of yelling on satisfying than any amount of yelling on satisfying than any amount of yelling on social media everywhere. So, it's how do social media everywhere. So, it's how do social media everywhere. So, it's how do you be tender to the world but act in you be tender to the world but act in you be tender to the world but act in your own neighborhood? Feels like the your own neighborhood? Feels like the your own neighborhood? Feels like the the balance that I feel the best when the balance that I feel the best when the balance that I feel the best when I'm there, but it's a very difficult I'm there, but it's a very difficult I'm there, but it's a very difficult balance to maintain. balance to maintain. balance to maintain. >> Winning the game of everyday life is >> Winning the game of everyday life is >> Winning the game of everyday life is exactly [laughter] what you just exactly [laughter] what you just exactly [laughter] what you just described. I think one can be online, described. I think one can be online, described. I think one can be online, see what's happening in the world, but see what's happening in the world, but see what's happening in the world, but um there has to be a buffer there. There um there has to be a buffer there. There um there has to be a buffer there. There has to be an emotional buffer and u has to be an emotional buffer and u has to be an emotional buffer and u because otherwise you lose our minds. I because otherwise you lose our minds. I because otherwise you lose our minds. I mean to you know steal your words from mean to you know steal your words from mean to you know steal your words from earlier although I won't say it nearly earlier although I won't say it nearly earlier although I won't say it nearly as eloquently. I mean it's a new as eloquently. I mean it's a new as eloquently. I mean it's a new technology that's forcing us to technology that's forcing us to technology that's forcing us to re-evaluate our morality. re-evaluate our morality. re-evaluate our morality. >> Um our our hard wiring hasn't changed. >> Um our our hard wiring hasn't changed. >> Um our our hard wiring hasn't changed. Our ability to softwire our brain and Our ability to softwire our brain and Our ability to softwire our brain and modify it hasn't really changed in tens modify it hasn't really changed in tens modify it hasn't really changed in tens of thousands or more years. So I think of thousands or more years. So I think of thousands or more years. So I think it took about 10 years of smartphone use it took about 10 years of smartphone use it took about 10 years of smartphone use for us to arrive at this place. We're for us to arrive at this place. We're for us to arrive at this place. We're like, "Oh like [laughter] how like, "Oh like [laughter] how like, "Oh like [laughter] how often should we be on this thing and how often should we be on this thing and how often should we be on this thing and how much I like what what aspects of this much I like what what aspects of this much I like what what aspects of this are beneficial and healthy and which are beneficial and healthy and which are beneficial and healthy and which aren't?" aren't?" aren't?" >> A lot are not. >> A lot are not. >> A lot are not. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, and the whole world migrated >> Yeah. Well, and the whole world migrated >> Yeah. Well, and the whole world migrated into this the position right now. into this the position right now. into this the position right now. >> But then also I say that and then I'm >> But then also I say that and then I'm >> But then also I say that and then I'm like but it's given me such incredible like but it's given me such incredible like but it's given me such incredible opportunities. Like would I have written opportunities. Like would I have written opportunities. Like would I have written a book without you know it was Twitter a book without you know it was Twitter a book without you know it was Twitter at that time. like would I be here and at that time. like would I be here and at that time. like would I be here and getting this opportunity to talk to you? getting this opportunity to talk to you? getting this opportunity to talk to you? One of my best friends I met online. So One of my best friends I met online. So One of my best friends I met online. So to the extent that it is a tool for real to the extent that it is a tool for real to the extent that it is a tool for real life connection and real life action, life connection and real life action, life connection and real life action, then I think it's good. And to the then I think it's good. And to the then I think it's good. And to the extent that it takes you out of real extent that it takes you out of real extent that it takes you out of real life, then it's bad. At least for me is life, then it's bad. At least for me is life, then it's bad. At least for me is how I have come to think of it. how I have come to think of it. how I have come to think of it. >> I'm certainly immensely grateful for the >> I'm certainly immensely grateful for the >> I'm certainly immensely grateful for the work you do. It's uh you're a brave one work you do. It's uh you're a brave one work you do. It's uh you're a brave one >> willing to go into these uh these >> willing to go into these uh these >> willing to go into these uh these corners of the psyche, corners of human corners of the psyche, corners of human corners of the psyche, corners of human um reflexes for better or worse and and um reflexes for better or worse and and um reflexes for better or worse and and to be willing to, you know, talk about to be willing to, you know, talk about to be willing to, you know, talk about issues of morality, sex differences, issues of morality, sex differences, issues of morality, sex differences, reward and punishment. There's some reward and punishment. There's some reward and punishment. There's some questions from quote unquote the questions from quote unquote the questions from quote unquote the audience, from the dreaded [laughter] audience, from the dreaded [laughter] audience, from the dreaded [laughter] internet. internet. internet. >> Speaking of the internet that we've just >> Speaking of the internet that we've just >> Speaking of the internet that we've just been talking about this whole time, been talking about this whole time, been talking about this whole time, >> I trust in people. They're like dogs. >> I trust in people. They're like dogs. >> I trust in people. They're like dogs. They just need to be treated right. They just need to be treated right. They just need to be treated right. [laughter] That's a compliment by the [laughter] That's a compliment by the [laughter] That's a compliment by the way, at least coming from me. Okay, way, at least coming from me. Okay, way, at least coming from me. Okay, questions from the interweb. [sighs] questions from the interweb. [sighs] questions from the interweb. [sighs] >> Always a fun and dangerous thing. Now, >> Always a fun and dangerous thing. Now, >> Always a fun and dangerous thing. Now, these are excellent questions and you've these are excellent questions and you've these are excellent questions and you've answered um many of them in our answered um many of them in our answered um many of them in our conversation already. A couple people conversation already. A couple people conversation already. A couple people asked you, how can identical twins be so asked you, how can identical twins be so asked you, how can identical twins be so incredibly different? incredibly different? incredibly different? >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> What's going on there? >> What's going on there? >> What's going on there? >> So, this is not just identical twins. We >> So, this is not just identical twins. We >> So, this is not just identical twins. We see this in other genetically identical see this in other genetically identical see this in other genetically identical animals. There's studies of inbred mice. animals. There's studies of inbred mice. animals. There's studies of inbred mice. There's studies of we were talking There's studies of we were talking There's studies of we were talking earlier about armadillos who give birth earlier about armadillos who give birth earlier about armadillos who give birth to four identical quadruplets. There to four identical quadruplets. There to four identical quadruplets. There studies of clonal fish. And what there studies of clonal fish. And what there studies of clonal fish. And what there seems to be is what some scientists have seems to be is what some scientists have seems to be is what some scientists have called developmental noise. Uh which is called developmental noise. Uh which is called developmental noise. Uh which is this emergence of individuality that's this emergence of individuality that's this emergence of individuality that's neither nature nor nurture but is neither nature nor nurture but is neither nature nor nurture but is something about the like initial chaos something about the like initial chaos something about the like initial chaos and then path dependence of development. and then path dependence of development. and then path dependence of development. Um one of my favorite studies about this Um one of my favorite studies about this Um one of my favorite studies about this they raise these mice they raise these mice they raise these mice inbred mice genetically homogeneous. inbred mice genetically homogeneous. inbred mice genetically homogeneous. They raised them in identical rearing They raised them in identical rearing They raised them in identical rearing environments and then at a certain point environments and then at a certain point environments and then at a certain point put them together in this big vivarium put them together in this big vivarium put them together in this big vivarium where they could interact. And you saw where they could interact. And you saw where they could interact. And you saw almost immediately almost immediately almost immediately just very, you know, variability which just very, you know, variability which just very, you know, variability which might have been initially random in might have been initially random in might have been initially random in [clears throat] activity levels, [clears throat] activity levels, [clears throat] activity levels, aggression levels, aggression levels, aggression levels, um where in the cage they like to hang um where in the cage they like to hang um where in the cage they like to hang out. And then those differences started out. And then those differences started out. And then those differences started to stabilize. You basically saw the to stabilize. You basically saw the to stabilize. You basically saw the emergence of individual differences in emergence of individual differences in emergence of individual differences in mouse personality over time. And it's mouse personality over time. And it's mouse personality over time. And it's experience. It's experience that's experience. It's experience that's experience. It's experience that's there's some randomness and then there's there's some randomness and then there's there's some randomness and then there's a path dependence there and then it's a path dependence there and then it's a path dependence there and then it's your nervous system responding to your nervous system responding to your nervous system responding to experience that leads experience that leads experience that leads leads um paths to diverge. I actually leads um paths to diverge. I actually leads um paths to diverge. I actually think that's one of the most interesting think that's one of the most interesting think that's one of the most interesting things about identical twins is things about identical twins is things about identical twins is >> that they can be different. If you have >> that they can be different. If you have >> that they can be different. If you have one twin who has schizophrenia, you one twin who has schizophrenia, you one twin who has schizophrenia, you there's only a 50% chance that the other there's only a 50% chance that the other there's only a 50% chance that the other one will. 50% is way higher than 1% one will. 50% is way higher than 1% one will. 50% is way higher than 1% which is the base rate but it's not not which is the base rate but it's not not which is the base rate but it's not not destiny. If someone wants a fiction destiny. If someone wants a fiction destiny. If someone wants a fiction treatment of this I know this much is treatment of this I know this much is treatment of this I know this much is true is a novel by the novelist Wally true is a novel by the novelist Wally true is a novel by the novelist Wally Lamb and it's written by the perspective Lamb and it's written by the perspective Lamb and it's written by the perspective of an unaffected of an unaffected of an unaffected identical twin whose identical twin has identical twin whose identical twin has identical twin whose identical twin has paranoid schizophrenia. And it's very paranoid schizophrenia. And it's very paranoid schizophrenia. And it's very scientifically interesting because it scientifically interesting because it scientifically interesting because it captures a lot of the did one of them captures a lot of the did one of them captures a lot of the did one of them get exposed to a virus? Did one of them get exposed to a virus? Did one of them get exposed to a virus? Did one of them get kind of singled out for maltreatment get kind of singled out for maltreatment get kind of singled out for maltreatment by the stepfather? So some things that by the stepfather? So some things that by the stepfather? So some things that might have gone into that difference, might have gone into that difference, might have gone into that difference, but also just the phenomenology of being but also just the phenomenology of being but also just the phenomenology of being genetically identical to someone who's genetically identical to someone who's genetically identical to someone who's having such a different psychological having such a different psychological having such a different psychological experience as you in life. experience as you in life. experience as you in life. >> Twins fascinate me. Um just as as the >> Twins fascinate me. Um just as as the >> Twins fascinate me. Um just as as the nature nurture thing, nature nurture thing, nature nurture thing, >> which by the way we are only saying now >> which by the way we are only saying now >> which by the way we are only saying now in this podcast. Amazing, right? Are in this podcast. Amazing, right? Are in this podcast. Amazing, right? Are there specific periods in development there specific periods in development there specific periods in development when genetic influence is at its when genetic influence is at its when genetic influence is at its strongest and how does that influence strongest and how does that influence strongest and how does that influence shift relative to environment across the shift relative to environment across the shift relative to environment across the lifespan? lifespan? lifespan? >> Oh, this is a really interesting >> Oh, this is a really interesting >> Oh, this is a really interesting question with a complicated answer. question with a complicated answer. question with a complicated answer. >> So, in some ways, genetics matter most >> So, in some ways, genetics matter most >> So, in some ways, genetics matter most when they affect fetal development when they affect fetal development when they affect fetal development because that's laying the groundwork for because that's laying the groundwork for because that's laying the groundwork for how the brain is wired over time. how the brain is wired over time. how the brain is wired over time. When you look at heritability estimates, When you look at heritability estimates, When you look at heritability estimates, so when you're estimating how much of so when you're estimating how much of so when you're estimating how much of the differences between people are due the differences between people are due the differences between people are due to genetic differences, to genetic differences, to genetic differences, you can estimate that using twins by you can estimate that using twins by you can estimate that using twins by looking at how much more similar are looking at how much more similar are looking at how much more similar are identical twins versus fraternal twins. identical twins versus fraternal twins. identical twins versus fraternal twins. And what you see is actually that And what you see is actually that And what you see is actually that heritability goes up with age. So the heritability goes up with age. So the heritability goes up with age. So the heritability of cognition, intelligence, heritability of cognition, intelligence, heritability of cognition, intelligence, test scores goes up until around age 12, test scores goes up until around age 12, test scores goes up until around age 12, in which case it stays pretty heritable in which case it stays pretty heritable in which case it stays pretty heritable from then. Heritability of personality from then. Heritability of personality from then. Heritability of personality continues to increase until around age continues to increase until around age continues to increase until around age 30. And so how can that be that the 30. And so how can that be that the 30. And so how can that be that the older you are, the more your genes older you are, the more your genes older you are, the more your genes matter because you've been acquiring matter because you've been acquiring matter because you've been acquiring experience all this time? And part of experience all this time? And part of experience all this time? And part of the answer to that is that people are the answer to that is that people are the answer to that is that people are picking their own experiences. So people picking their own experiences. So people picking their own experiences. So people are picking their environments. They're are picking their environments. They're are picking their environments. They're responding to their environments responding to their environments responding to their environments according to their genetically shaped according to their genetically shaped according to their genetically shaped temperament, personality, neurobiology. temperament, personality, neurobiology. temperament, personality, neurobiology. And what that means is that identical And what that means is that identical And what that means is that identical twins actually converge over time even twins actually converge over time even twins actually converge over time even though they are acquiring experience though they are acquiring experience though they are acquiring experience over time. So when do genetics matter over time. So when do genetics matter over time. So when do genetics matter more? It kind of depends on what you more? It kind of depends on what you more? It kind of depends on what you mean by matter. When when are genetic mean by matter. When when are genetic mean by matter. When when are genetic differences most predictive of your differences most predictive of your differences most predictive of your phenotype? Once you're an adult. because phenotype? Once you're an adult. because phenotype? Once you're an adult. because you've had a chance to pick your own you've had a chance to pick your own you've had a chance to pick your own life experiences. life experiences. life experiences. >> There are several questions that I'm >> There are several questions that I'm >> There are several questions that I'm going to merge into one. Okay. going to merge into one. Okay. going to merge into one. Okay. >> Earlier at the very beginning of the >> Earlier at the very beginning of the >> Earlier at the very beginning of the conversation, we were talking about um conversation, we were talking about um conversation, we were talking about um possible pheromone but if not possible pheromone but if not possible pheromone but if not pherommones and odor effects of of pherommones and odor effects of of pherommones and odor effects of of timing of puberty because of the timing of puberty because of the timing of puberty because of the presence or absence of a male. It's kind presence or absence of a male. It's kind presence or absence of a male. It's kind of an interesting example, but there I'm of an interesting example, but there I'm of an interesting example, but there I'm sure there are other examples where sure there are other examples where sure there are other examples where something about the environment at a at something about the environment at a at something about the environment at a at a chemical level impacts whether or not a chemical level impacts whether or not a chemical level impacts whether or not gene expression is turned on or off. And gene expression is turned on or off. And gene expression is turned on or off. And so I um this is an infinite space that so I um this is an infinite space that so I um this is an infinite space that to consider, but um depending on where to consider, but um depending on where to consider, but um depending on where one is born in the world, maybe you're one is born in the world, maybe you're one is born in the world, maybe you're getting longer days and shorter nights getting longer days and shorter nights getting longer days and shorter nights for a portion of the year. If you're for a portion of the year. If you're for a portion of the year. If you're near the equator, less of that. Um, if near the equator, less of that. Um, if near the equator, less of that. Um, if you're in Scandinavia, you're getting you're in Scandinavia, you're getting you're in Scandinavia, you're getting some extended periods of lack of some extended periods of lack of some extended periods of lack of sunlight. And there were a number of sunlight. And there were a number of sunlight. And there were a number of questions about how sunlight can impact questions about how sunlight can impact questions about how sunlight can impact gene expression. So, if you take two gene expression. So, if you take two gene expression. So, if you take two identical twins and you raise them in identical twins and you raise them in identical twins and you raise them in very different environments, let's say very different environments, let's say very different environments, let's say equator versus closer to the North Pole, equator versus closer to the North Pole, equator versus closer to the North Pole, >> is there any evidence that amount of >> is there any evidence that amount of >> is there any evidence that amount of sunlight day length across the years can sunlight day length across the years can sunlight day length across the years can impact expression of of what would impact expression of of what would impact expression of of what would otherwise be called genetically otherwise be called genetically otherwise be called genetically determined traits? So I will say that I determined traits? So I will say that I determined traits? So I will say that I don't have any expertise specifically don't have any expertise specifically don't have any expertise specifically around sunlight or I don't typically around sunlight or I don't typically around sunlight or I don't typically study physical environments. I usually study physical environments. I usually study physical environments. I usually am studying social environments. Um am studying social environments. Um am studying social environments. Um there is one hypothesis about how there is one hypothesis about how there is one hypothesis about how basically people whose ancestors are basically people whose ancestors are basically people whose ancestors are from equatorial climates if they are in from equatorial climates if they are in from equatorial climates if they are in colder climates if they are more colder climates if they are more colder climates if they are more susceptible to susceptible to susceptible to um schizophrenia because of activation um schizophrenia because of activation um schizophrenia because of activation of risk genes for that. I don't actually of risk genes for that. I don't actually of risk genes for that. I don't actually know the the current state of the know the the current state of the know the the current state of the literature on this. um the human being literature on this. um the human being literature on this. um the human being is both is both is both um developmentally programmed in this um developmentally programmed in this um developmentally programmed in this very resilient way. The fact that we very resilient way. The fact that we very resilient way. The fact that we managed to grow such a complicated managed to grow such a complicated managed to grow such a complicated nervous system and and psychology nervous system and and psychology nervous system and and psychology um from so humble beginnings is really um from so humble beginnings is really um from so humble beginnings is really amazing. Um, and also we are incredibly amazing. Um, and also we are incredibly amazing. Um, and also we are incredibly adaptable creatures. And the reason why adaptable creatures. And the reason why adaptable creatures. And the reason why we're adaptable is because our gene, our we're adaptable is because our gene, our we're adaptable is because our gene, our genotype, that developmental programming genotype, that developmental programming genotype, that developmental programming can respond so flexibly to the can respond so flexibly to the can respond so flexibly to the environmental inputs that we're in. So environmental inputs that we're in. So environmental inputs that we're in. So that's a kind of a non you know, that's that's a kind of a non you know, that's that's a kind of a non you know, that's a very vague answer, but you DNA is a a very vague answer, but you DNA is a a very vague answer, but you DNA is a molecule that's sitting in your cells. molecule that's sitting in your cells. molecule that's sitting in your cells. is not doing anything until it's acted is not doing anything until it's acted is not doing anything until it's acted on to be read to be transcribed to be on to be read to be transcribed to be on to be read to be transcribed to be expressed and so that always requires an expressed and so that always requires an expressed and so that always requires an environment and is sensitive to an environment and is sensitive to an environment and is sensitive to an environment. Well, thank you so much for environment. Well, thank you so much for environment. Well, thank you so much for answering those questions and uh I mean answering those questions and uh I mean answering those questions and uh I mean you've really expanded everyone's you've really expanded everyone's you've really expanded everyone's thinking about genes and morality and thinking about genes and morality and thinking about genes and morality and and I know that people including me but and I know that people including me but and I know that people including me but many many people will really appreciate many many people will really appreciate many many people will really appreciate the the thoughtfulness and the rigor the the thoughtfulness and the rigor the the thoughtfulness and the rigor that you approach these things because that you approach these things because that you approach these things because they are dicey topics. Um, but they're they are dicey topics. Um, but they're they are dicey topics. Um, but they're central to who we are and how we're central to who we are and how we're central to who we are and how we're functioning. And it's also very clear functioning. And it's also very clear functioning. And it's also very clear from everything you've said that there's from everything you've said that there's from everything you've said that there's a ray of optimism thread through all of a ray of optimism thread through all of a ray of optimism thread through all of it. Like so, it. Like so, it. Like so, >> you know, that like that we can make >> you know, that like that we can make >> you know, that like that we can make positive choices for ourselves. positive choices for ourselves. positive choices for ourselves. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Well, I really appreciate the >> Well, I really appreciate the >> Well, I really appreciate the conversation. You know, I'm an academic, conversation. You know, I'm an academic, conversation. You know, I'm an academic, so I'm used to giving talks and getting so I'm used to giving talks and getting so I'm used to giving talks and getting a Q&A, but it is rare to have an a Q&A, but it is rare to have an a Q&A, but it is rare to have an interviewer that is so delightfully interviewer that is so delightfully interviewer that is so delightfully varied in their questions and so careful varied in their questions and so careful varied in their questions and so careful in the questioning, too. So, I really in the questioning, too. So, I really in the questioning, too. So, I really appreciate the conversation. appreciate the conversation. appreciate the conversation. >> Oh, thank you. Well, we certainly have >> Oh, thank you. Well, we certainly have >> Oh, thank you. Well, we certainly have to have you back again. Uh, before I to have you back again. Uh, before I to have you back again. Uh, before I forget, um, you have books. We'll put forget, um, you have books. We'll put forget, um, you have books. We'll put links to those. links to those. links to those. >> Great. >> Great. >> Great. >> What are you most excited about now? I'm >> What are you most excited about now? I'm >> What are you most excited about now? I'm sure you're working on something right sure you're working on something right sure you're working on something right now. now. now. >> I mean, I'm really excited to talk about >> I mean, I'm really excited to talk about >> I mean, I'm really excited to talk about the book. The my new book is coming out the book. The my new book is coming out the book. The my new book is coming out on March 3rd. And I'm just really on March 3rd. And I'm just really on March 3rd. And I'm just really excited to be in conversation with excited to be in conversation with excited to be in conversation with people about these issues that I've people about these issues that I've people about these issues that I've thought about for a long time. And thought about for a long time. And thought about for a long time. And >> what's the title of the book? Sorry to >> what's the title of the book? Sorry to >> what's the title of the book? Sorry to interrupt, but I want to make sure interrupt, but I want to make sure interrupt, but I want to make sure >> The book is called Original Sin: On the >> The book is called Original Sin: On the >> The book is called Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, the problem of blame, Genetics of Vice, the problem of blame, Genetics of Vice, the problem of blame, and the future of forgiveness, and it's and the future of forgiveness, and it's and the future of forgiveness, and it's out uh in early March. out uh in early March. out uh in early March. >> Amazing. All right, I am going to go >> Amazing. All right, I am going to go >> Amazing. All right, I am going to go purchase it. Don't send me a free copy. purchase it. Don't send me a free copy. purchase it. Don't send me a free copy. I always tell people, don't send me a I always tell people, don't send me a I always tell people, don't send me a copy. I want to [laughter] buy buy the copy. I want to [laughter] buy buy the copy. I want to [laughter] buy buy the book to support, but also um to read. book to support, but also um to read. book to support, but also um to read. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. >> Okay. Awesome. >> Okay. Awesome. >> Okay. Awesome. >> Fantastic. Well, thank you. We'll have >> Fantastic. Well, thank you. We'll have >> Fantastic. Well, thank you. We'll have to have you back again. to have you back again. to have you back again. >> I would love to. >> I would love to. >> I would love to. >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Katherine Paige discussion with Dr. Katherine Paige discussion with Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. To learn more about her work and Harden. To learn more about her work and Harden. To learn more about her work and to find a link to her new upcoming book, to find a link to her new upcoming book, to find a link to her new upcoming book, Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, the problem of blame, and the future of the problem of blame, and the future of the problem of blame, and the future of forgiveness, you can simply go to the forgiveness, you can simply go to the forgiveness, you can simply go to the link in the show not captions. If you're link in the show not captions. If you're link in the show not captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this learning from and or enjoying this learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way channel. That's a terrific zerocost way channel. 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For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book that haven't heard, I have a new book that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating It's entitled Protocols: An Operating It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than five years and that's based on more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience than 30 years of research and experience than 30 years of research and experience and it covers protocols for everything and it covers protocols for everything and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control from sleep to exercise to stress control from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and protocols related to focus and protocols related to focus and motivation and of course I provide the motivation and of course I provide the motivation and of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the scientific substantiation for the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is protocols that are included. The book is protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at now available by pre-sale at now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various There you can find links to various There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. And if you're not already human body. And if you're not already human body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am following me on social media, I am following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. 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Thank not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Katherine today's discussion with Dr. Katherine today's discussion with Dr. Katherine Paige Harden. And last, but certainly Paige Harden. And last, but certainly Paige Harden. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest not least, thank you for your interest not least, thank you for your interest in science.