He Went from “Couch Surfing” to Playing Arenas in Just a Few Days!

Key Takeaway

When an opportunity arrives before you feel fully ready, replace overthinking with preparation: say yes, learn the essential material fast, and deliver the best version you can. Michael McDonald went from couch surfing to joining the Doobie Brothers’ arena tour after two days of rehearsal because he acted before fear could decide for him. Today, identify one intimidating opportunity—a pitch, audition, introduction, or application—and take the next concrete step within 24 hours.

Episode Overview

Michael McDonald traces his path from Ferguson, Missouri, through early club work and a brief Steely Dan stint, to becoming a defining voice in the Doobie Brothers. He reflects on self-doubt, addiction and sobriety, the slow development of a solo career, and a songwriting process built on patience, collaboration, and allowing ideas to reveal themselves.

Full Transcript

Transcript of He Went from “Couch Surfing” to Playing Arenas in Just a Few Days! from How I Built This. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

hello everyone and welcome to the great creators this is where I have conversations with some of the most acclaimed artists musicians and performers of our time and on the show today the great and legendary Michael McDonald her apology anybody Michael sang and played keys and not one but two legendary bands Steely Dan and the Doobie Brothers and how he ended up in those bands pretty incredible story which you will hear on the show today you'll also learn about his songwriting process his reaction to being parody on South Park and Family Guy how's he going to help us he's going to do backup vocals for everything we say how's he going to know what we're saying and how Michael's been able to stay creative for more than 50 years despite feeling a lot of self-doubt and self-consciousness along the way so without further Ado please enjoy my conversation with the great Michael McDonald thank you for as I say for for joining us on the show um let's start let's let's let let's go back to where you grew up because you actually grew up in a place that most people would never have heard of before um until of course recently in recent years when it was in the news you grew up in Ferguson Missouri yeah that's right um small town outside of St Louis it was even smaller back then in the 50s when when my parents moved out that way and uh um we always had strong ties to the city my grandparents lived in the city and and a lot of our fam and friends were in the city but uh my folks uh my dad with the help of the GI bill and my grandmother helping out a little bit with some inheritance money she had gotten they they were able to buy a house out in this suburb that had just been built in Ferguson and and I remember I was about four one of my more Vivid memories of that age is uh there believe it or not a few things I remember one of them is uh the first night I spent in Ferguson uh it was our uh phase of the development of the suburb was ended at the dairy farm that was being sold off in Parcels to build this subdivision and I heard cows for the first time through my window and I had no idea what they were I thought they were ghouls yeah you know coming to get me and uh I I ran down the hall scared my father you know talked me back into bed and told me it's just a cow you know but uh I was a city kid up till uh you know four and a half so so um I know as a kid um your dad uh he was kind of he was an amateur singer right I mean this is not what he did for a living but he did regularly sing like do gigs and in local bars yes he did he he uh he had a beautiful voice and uh and a and a great style of singing too he he you know my dad I always knew even back then listening to him that uh he just had a way with uh making the lyrics come to life when he sang you know and I always loved that about his you know I always admired that about his singing uh you know for instance Danny boy was his big number you know he big lanky Irishman who with a tener voice and so of course was a natural to sing Danny boy and he uh he just had a way with that song that that uh people always requested him to sing it and uh uh and the words of that song are so beautiful and he he was uh I remember even as a little kid you know uh having to fight back the tears whenever I heard him sing Danny Boy it was just so it just wow came to life you know and uh and and he was like that you know with most most songs he he interpreted you know and U and I think I learned from him or inherited from him I should say his great love of songwriters and and great songs you know that was my my my dad uh if I could say anything about him you know that I remember uh so much I remember about him but but one of the things I always uh felt like I inherited from him was that that love of of of a good song and uh and a great lyric you know what Michael what kind of kid were you I I I'm I'm I'm gonna guess you were a little bit of an introverted kid because later on we're going to talk about your approach to being a stage performer what you had to grow into were you kind of a quiet kid a little bit um you know I I guess I was I I I was a kind of uh a living Paradox in a way because uh I was one of those kids that I was very shy on the inside but I was always stepping in it you know I was always uh uh being an extrovert at the wrong time and you know opening my mouth at the wrong you know I just seem to be uh one of those people I came from a family where sarcasm was King you know it was Irish Catholic Family and uh yeah everybody was pretty had certain wit about them and uh and a sense of the irony and they would never hesitate to point it out you know with each other and uh and I was kind of a shrinking violet in this environment as a kid I remember feeling that way like I wasn't uh I couldn't really keep up with them you know um and at the same time I would try to and when I did it was usually a failed experiment you know and uh only served to make me feel even more like more of a shrinking VI like I you know but I I like my dad for instance he was I just idolized the guy growing up and uh he was uh almost quite naturally uh that guy that everybody loved the guy you know he a wicked sense of humor he was a very dry sense of humor and uh I I always could tell people enjoyed seeing him and enjoyed talking to him because he was kind of a um he was a hoot you know and uh and Without Really Trying to be and he just seemed to be uh very at ease with himself and uh you know and I never was that way I I just always I aspired to be like him but I kind of always believed I never would be you know um as a kid in the 50s into the 60s really um St Louis was a really important Jazz and Blues town when you were growing up do do you remember being exposed to that kind of music I mean you I'm assuming it was more of a segregated City then although it still is today um do you remember listening to to black music as a kid yes uh and it was uh very segregated first of all in the 50s you know um and that's a sad thing because the real culture of St Louis the the real unique culture of St Louis in terms of Art and uh was largely uh inspired and and uh invented if you will by African-American population you know our music was something that you know uh you know WC handy all the blues artists coming up uh there were bands back then I remember going to a fish fry all Church a church fry well it was actually a little place called the Shady Grove in Jennings Missouri and um uh it was uh was a was like a beer garden like an outdoor thing and they had they on Friday they sered fish so all the Catholic families would go there for their right you know for their quota or whatever and uh there was a band playing it was like a quartet and I believe looking back that it was the Oliver San band and they were a an important band in St Louis music culture you know in the 50s and 60s um every bit like uh you know ik Turner kind of came out of that same uh full you know uh there were those great bands in St Louis that played at the the the hot spots and St Louis Club Imperial uh on the east side uh a lot of places like the blue note club and places like that and Oliver sa was one of those bands you know that uh really they were on the map in St Louis and I remember hearing them I believe and there were they were playing at this place and it was uh interesting because they were playing music I hadn't really been that familiar with and what I say was one of the songs they were playing that night and it was the first time I ever heard a real Bass Live bass guitar and it was just like wow what is that you know and uh uh cuz you know the most bass you heard was on a jukebox back then and uh and that's why everybody loved jukeboxes because it you know it had that that robust kind of sound that really especially with rock and roll that really came across but to hear it live and to hear it uh a big vendor pbas and the guy was just going to town and uh one of the guy that was singing was playing a whirly piano it just sounded just like the record to me of the Ray Charles record uh and um I remember being very impressed by uh realizing that there was this was something different this was uh you know a style of music you know it was like the first time I ever heard Ray Charles as a kid I I remember thinking you know I I just know this guy never sings this song the same way twice he's just so in the moment he was just so uh expressive and so soulful uh beyond anything I'd heard up to that point and uh uh you know so that's that's when uh you know Soul music uh really first uh got my attention as it was as a little kid it really my Dad loved all the kuners you know Tony Bennett Frank Sinatra Nat King Cole and he loved Ray Charles and so in his old Ford Fairline with the Delco radio you know I remember I could see over the dashboard but when Ray Charles came on it was like the whole world filled up with that voice you know yeah at what age did you discover that you had a voice well uh you know I don't know that I would ever really was ever the the uh the best uh Authority on whether I did or didn't you know I when I was four they put me on the uh they let me sing uh I asked them to let me sing my dad was a singer and I would always go with him to these places where he'd sing and he'd uh he'd get his pepsicola my dad didn't drink he just went to bars to sing you know and uh so he'd get his pepsicola and I'd get a Shirley Temple and uh uh thankfully the bartender was kind enough to call it a Roy Rogers you know so I didn't feel too bad about it but I would sit on the window sill behind the piano player and watch my dad sing at the microphone and watch the piano players play and um I uh when I got up there I was about five when first time I ever got up I I tugged the lady's sleeve the piano player I said I like to sing a song you know she just kind of looked at me and she was a friend of my dad's and she was she he was her favorite singer you know so she just looked she goes what do you want to sing honey and I said uh love is a many Splender thing you know it's like a Mario lonza song kind of an opera song you know almost and uh I had heard it on 78 recording at my aunt's house on her old victrola she showed me how to wind up the victrola so I played that record was the only record she had over and over and I learned all the words and so I thought well I'm going to get up there and sing that song and I I sang it at about five years old I probably sounded I clocked in a little closer to Alfalfa than Mari lonza I'm sure but uh when I got done the place just erupted in hysterics laughter and clapped and applauded for me and I thought that they thought I was really a great singer you know uh so I uh that was it for me from that day on I this I that's how I saw myself as singing songs for whatever audience would listen you know you were a high school student in the late 60s and I think you graduated maybe in 70 6970 and you were at that point playing keyboard you I mean you were self largely self-taught and you you've been playing in bands and did you I mean at that point in your life when you're 17 18 years old did you think that that was how you were going to make a living that that that was a career path you were going to follow a musician I hoped it would be you know I didn't know what the chances were you know and oddly enough my parents were always supportive of me but my dad was a little apprehensive about it all you know he he was always quick to remind me that the odds aren't that great you know no you know uh when he was in the Marines in World War II in the Pacific he actually had the opportunity to sing with uh Bob Crosby and the Bobcats you know uh which was a band kind of a big band you know that toured The Uso clubs in the Pacific and uh for guys that were on RNR and U so I think my dad thought that maybe that would be a break for him and it never really you know he he learned real quick that the odds of you know in the music business weren't that great it was it was you know most people were disappointed by their efforts and so he was always afraid of that for me you know he he always wanted me to get I I dropped out of high school to go start touring with bands or playing with bands and uh my folks were split up and he wasn't happy about that and he he let me you know he allowed me to do it for whatever reason but um uh he uh always wanted me to get my GED always wanted me to get that high school equivalency test which when I finally did it I was out in California for a while and the bottom dropped out for me and I had to come home home and uh so I promised him I would do the GED before I left again and uh you know a mildly clever chimpanzee could pass the GED you know I mean it wasn't any you you needed to study or anything you know um but uh and I remember at that point in time thinking well you know maybe I will need this someday I don't know you know if I give this up so I was always kind of a give and take there as far as having real faith in the fact that I would do this for a living I I was persistent because I was more stubborn than anything and uh so I I went out there and I I kind of inherited that for my mom my stubbornness I inherited my musical uh and I think one of the reasons I'm a musician today was uh if my mother trusted my father more I probably wouldn't have been a musician because uh when he'd come home from work he was you know he'd have dinner and he was getting ready to he would always want to go out and sing Somewhere and coming home from the war and having a little bit of PTSD and kind of always having to be moving you know he always had a foot out the door and uh my mother would let him you know Go sing she felt like it was good for him and but she would always remind him that he hadn't seen me all day so maybe he should take me along so I would tag along with my dad to all these saloons while he sang and and the idea was he would get home early with me which never almost never happened but uh but it would keep him out of trouble you know cuz most of his uh his ardan fans were females they all loved his voice and you know uh he was a good-looking guy so my mom uh you know I was the the designated spoiler you know for this whole uh routine they had you know Michael when you were just 18 you were discovered at a nightclub in Illinois um by a a producer uh who basically said hey uh let's bring you out to LA and and and make a record I mean that was a to sort of get to the end of the story it did not turn out well but it that was potentially a huge break at that time right you're 18 go out to LA make a record tell me what what happened you presumably you went you took the offer you went out to LA well reality happened is what it was I mean the guy was a great producer uh and and I owe him so much uh Rick Gerard was his name I think jart he he gave me so much experience I wouldn't have gotten any other way and what happened was it wasn't a a a a slam dunk it wasn't a done deal when he asked me to come out to California he had heard a demo IID made with my band and uh he came down to the club to hear me sing and uh so got a a kind of a he was starting an independent production company himself so he got some seed money from RCA records where he had been a staff producer and and uh in in exchange they he would bring his axe they would get right a first refusal you know on his axe so I was one of the first acts he signed and uh he brought me out to California with some money they gave him as an advance towards making a demo with me to see if they wanted to sign me and uh he uh he knew I wrote songs and he had listened to my songs but he wanted to really make a a good impression on this demo with RCA to to to secure a deal for me as an artist so he brought me this song that he' gotten from dick James music by this young uh songwriting team that no one had ever heard of they were an English songwriting team and they wrote songs for this publisher dick James and they went by the name of Elton John and Bernie toin I knew you were gonna say that yeah and they brought me this song called take me to the pilot what little did I know that they had already cut this album on Elton and Dick James the guy from dick James was just sending it out as like a publishing demo but uh uh I I cut it with some of the guys some of these musicians out there in California in La U you know Ronnie Tut uh James Burton on guitar uh Jerry Chef on bass and these guys were kind of like uh in some form or fashion part of The Wrecking Crew uh you know Legacy out there in in in California I think they were Elvis's band at the time and so I I cut the song uh got the deal with RCA and then got dropped immediately by the time we finished the record I think they were already pretty much sure they were going to drop me and uh but they to their credit they went they went the expense of making this record with me and and uh uh and Rick did a great job producing it the songs were terrible but uh you know that's was just where I was at that point but what happened for me that was really important was Rick started using me on all his sessions to write chord charts any kind of miscellaneous task he could give me and it always wound up with me playing on the dates which I had no business being in the room with those musicians and playing on the floor with them you know and but Rick uh kind of used me that way to keep me alive in California while I was living out there Michael I'm I'm curious I mean here you are 18 19y old in California in the early 70s I mean now you know I guess anytime really is legendary but when we think I think about that time I think of like Joanie Mitchell and you know uh and and David Crosby and RAM Nash you know all these things happening in like you know toena Canyon and just that world but I want to ask about your voice at the time right because we're going to talk more about this because your voice is so distinct and so unique and has has is sort almost precedes you your voice and then Michael McDonald comes in the room like it's it has its own identity how did you um I mean were you singing in a Barone in that bar tone style in the same with the same kind of voice control or was it something that would develop over time like how what did you sound like in 1970 uh it's hard for me to say I I probably sounded a little closer to what I sound like now but not quite you know I was a little more of uh oh you know my I I I really aspired to be like uh Tom Jones you know I thought he was fabulous singer I still do but you know and uh uh uh but I I it was that kind of music like I loved Bert bearak songs I loved It's Not Unusual you know the song that that Tom Rich deep yeah and and I love that kind of pop music you know I was a I wasn't a folk singer you know and I wasn't a a a blues guy or anything I I really I was just unabashed unashamedly uh infatuated with a great pop song you know I uh like I say Bert backra Hal David uh I loved uh broadway songs you know Richard Rogers Oscar Hammerstein uh but I I liked I love the Beatles And I loved the stones and I loved all the stuff that people my age loved and I it was in bands that we played all that stuff yeah and in rhythm and blues bands back in St Louis where we had horn sections and uh we were kind of like R&B dance bands you know one of the top three R&B dance bands in the St area um but uh you know I think down deep I I really loved that I I still loved the kind of songs My Dad loved you know I loved those uh Broadway musical songs you know uh Steven sonheim songs I love to uh U you know reach out for me and you know all those great songs that those guys wrote uh and uh and I think if I saw myself as anything I would have been happy to to do that I would happy to I would have been happy to have been a male Dion Warwick or Tom Jones you know kind of guy making pop records uh um but I I played on a lot of different stuff I played on Rick did a lot of folk artists kind of and uh he he was producing Jose Feliciano at the time and uh uh you know uh John Hartman you know and uh so he Harry Nielson you know he had just gotten done doing a couple albums with Harry Nelson and uh believe it or not his first big record was a calistic pillow by Jefferson Airplane you know he had quite a a a roster a roster of artists that he produced and so I was looking forward to whatever he was doing at that time he was he was doing an album with Jack Jones and David Cassidy and and uh lo and behold they did a couple both of them each did one of my songs that you had written that I had written and so I I was I had high hopes you know yeah but uh it was going to be a longer haul than I realized but I think that's just normal I think most people you know uh we look at our best laid plans and those are just you know kind of comical really in the end you just don't uh that usually never goes that way you know you were you were mainly doing from what I understand like just performing at parties and and doing you know sort of a musician for hire and and and in La at the time and I'm assuming you were just singing a lot of Standards or and sort of popular songs of the time sure well we did a lot of uh we played a lot of dance clubs what were basically discos before discos and DJs came around there were these clubs and um they were all around the LA area mostly Orange County uh San Gabriel Valley we play we play everything from like the the Corner Bar to these dance clubs where the whole idea was keep them dancing you know so we would play uh we had we we all kind of knew about two hours worth of the songs that would have been considered disco back then which was like War Tower of Power U yeah Steely Dan even you know uh doie Brothers you know uh and people love to dance to those songs Wilson pick it you know whenever there was a dance contest it was like we would you know uh bait our breath because we knew we were going to play Mustang Sally at least a hundred times at night for every couple who wanted to do their thing on the Dance Floor you know yeah uh so uh but those were the songs and that was that was what disco was you know prior to the BS really reshaping the whole thing and uh a lot of the Disco acts that that came out during the 80s and 90s you know uh disco was kind of a little more of a primitive but uh and uh you know there there were those clubs the rrie was a club I remember in La we used to play all the time and that was one of the kind of Premier dance clubs so people just went there to dance and you better know the stuff they want to dance to you know so that was kind of what what I did a lot of and Michael in I mean people who know a little bit about you I would like you to tell the story know that you really got your first Big Break um with Steely Dan but but I from what I understand the way The Story Goes is they were looking for a Pianist a keyboardist and that was the opportunity you you kind of jumped at this chance to maybe audition to to play the keys for them well it was one of those random connections that that happen that again are have nothing to do with the plans you might have laid out you know when I came to California I thought I was going to make an album go home in a couple weeks and wait to hear it on the radio you know uh but I uh I stayed about 5 years in LA and played nightclubs and played some sessions I was lucky to get those sessions and I it it put me in touch in in in the company of a lot of uh people that uh I remember hearing about a kid I was on playing a session at A&M Studios I forget for who but it was Rick jard was a producer and Al Jackson uh was a guitar player one of the was session player and he was on that date and he was telling the producer about this young kid who's 15 and uh he was a somebody's son but he was already like a world class drummer and had his Studio etiquette alog together he could come in and be a real Pro on this on a on a major recording uh Master recording session and his drum sounded great he knew how to read he was you know he was doing really it was amazing for how young he was uh and it turns out that was Jeff Baro that he was talking about and uh I would run into Jeff a little later when Jeff was still only 16 I was playing uh I was about 19 then playing this club out in the valley and Jeff's ban they were like a Junior High School uh Jazz Ensemble and they came into this club and played all instrumentals you know uh but uh they were great you know and uh impressive and about a year later I maybe talked to him that night briefly but not much you know and uh and Jeff was 15 at the time well Jeff by now was you know uh 19 or 20 so still young guy this is years before he would found Toto of course but he he was just a yeah he was a well-known talented skilled drummer yeah and well you know to make a long story short I I which I'm not doing a very good job of um he uh okay he called me out of the blue uh we were friends through a mutual friend of ours a a girl I was dating uh a bass player great bass player Brandy bentto and uh she informed me uh that uh she had this gig she wanted to do was a better than usual paying gig for rap party on Universal Studios lot for the show uh emergency with Kevin Tai and Randy man tooth and she was friends with them and they hired her to put a band together for this rap party she said look I got to go to Vegas cuz I got this audition with the Harry James Orchestra and it could be a like a yearl long gig I can't not go to this audition because you know she had a little girl and and this might be uh something where she had to either move to Vegas but it might would be work that was meaningful for her you know she said you will you do this gig for me you got to got to get the music musicians you got to get the band uh you got to get the gear you've got to come up with the songs you got to do all the stuff because I know you don't wait till the last minute on this early I said oh no no problem I got it so cut to about a week before five days before the gig I've got no one except a sax player that I'm sitting with in my kitchen and uh and and I'm singing the blues to I'm I'm I'm explaining to him how screwed I am right now that there's no way I'm going to get this span together and this gig is pending in five days and you're the only guy I have so far I have no gear no PA I don't know what I'm going to do and so he says man he goes calm down he goes uh I know some cats uh they're friends of my brothers his brother happened to own a big uh rehearsal Hall in in gear rental like siir kind of place one of the early places in LA and he said my brother can get us the gear these guys are doing a session right now but they're working from like 10: to 6 and they don't go into the evenings uh the artist doesn't like to work into the evenings so uh they'll probably be available and they probably would love to do it Just for kicks I said well you know if they're playing sessions this money isn't that that good you know and he goes I because my these guys don't need the money they they'll just do it for fun you know probably if if they if they can do so I said well that would be like too good to be true you know uh you know the fact that I could actually snatch defeat from Victory from the jaws of defeat at this point was a miracle and so he called these guys and uh I said well we need to rehearse you know these because these guys don't need to rehearse say just make the chord charts pick the keys for the songs that you can sing them in you know do them just like the record so they're familiar with what's going on and make these simple Court charts everybody would be fine so when I got to the gig the drummer he had found was Jeff Maro Mike bakaro on bass uh David paig came down and played some keyboards uh Kent Henry on guitar and myself and we pretty much just faked it all night long we did two hours of Music people were happy um these guys were fantastic you know and they were you know we were we were really just kind of uh improvising the whole night and they were wonder that and on one of the breaks I we went outside and we had a cigarette break and uh Jeff was telling me about this album he's working on uh that he had just cut a track that day called pretzel logic which would wind up being the title track of the record and I remember thinking God I'm so jealous that was my favorite band at the time since my favorite band since the beagles at that point in time wow and I said man I said I cannot believe how lucky this guy is I'm thinking to myself you know how do you get a gig like that and so this is a year later I I get this phone call through my girlfriend and I I she gives me his number I call him he says oh man I'm glad you called he goes uh I I was mentioning you that donin Walter could you come down and uh audition we're at modern music rehearsing I'm thinking well I got a you know Barnstorm on these songs I don't know that many of their songs I know the ks and uh I said 'well sure you know how much time do I got I mean when when do you want to rehearse he goes like right now and so I'm throwing my piano in my Ford Pinto and going down to modern music within an hour I go in there they set me up I meet all the guys uh Donald's teaches me some songs and I think what got me the gig was I could sing all the high parts in my head Voice or my almost natural voice yeah Donald Lov that you know and Walter loved that too so that's more than my piano playing certainly uh that that's what got me the gig Donald Fagen Walter Becker are in that room and you are literally you're like you've got a audition right then and there and it wasn't your keyboard playing that was impress impressive to them it was the fact that you could hit the high notes yeah and uh I uh that audition more or less turned into a rehearsal which parlayed into a weeks of rehearsal and these guys were Your Heroes oh they were that was like to me a dream come true and I of course to my way of thinking some other shoes got to fall here it's going to drop any minute something something bad's going to happen it's this couldn't possibly work out to my favor but it did and I wound up touring with them for that better part of that year and then we even went on to tour in Europe uh after that few months later and and it was at that time I think around that time Steely Dan Walter Becker and Donald Fagan decide essentially to be a studio band and not to tour any anyway they would of course pick it up again decades later but natural to me of course I was waiting for something like that you know it seems like every time you got a good gig in this business uh I remember Timothy Schmidt and I talking about this laughing about this once he goes yeah man because we he and I sang on sessions background sessions together years before he got in the Eagles and uh he was still with poco back then and and I was uh just knocking around town but and kind of with Steely Dan on and off you know but uh I remember him saying yeah man he goes you you know what our fate is we get these gigs the gig of a lifetime and the band breaks up yeah which was basically what happened to him and what happened to me with with uh uh Ste Dan was that Donald and Walter disbanded the whole group which was hard on the original guys you know and uh cuz they had put a lot of time and sweat and blood into but but it was a natural I remember I was with Denny Diaz when I heard about this and uh he was very philosophical about it he knew those guys really well and he of all the guys he he seemed to be you know to understand what they were doing what was going on with them he goes you know man he goes this is the natural uh EV Evolution for Don Walter this is this is where they need to go to do what they need to do in the future and and as it turns out all those gems that we remember you know by them from Asia and Royal scam and you know goo those songs would have never happened had they remained I don't think you know had they remained in the in the uh unit that they were as the original band it was it was down the wal and uh putting in countless hours writing yeah's records and uh picking just the right musicians to play on those tracks as they saw fit and really paying attention to the details of making those albums in a way they couldn't if they were touring uh because the labels were always famous back then for shoving you back out on the road you know right and so making a record for them became especially if you had a hit then it became like you had to fight for your time to get back in the studio and make the next record you know what I mean I I from what I understand I mean understandably this was a difficult moment for you because you you got the gig of a lifetime and then it it ended and I think you were I mean it would looking back on it now fate kind of intervened right like let's say the hand of God or whatever because had you not been had you been employed to Steely Dan the next opportunity might not have come up but from what I understand you were kind of down on your luck at the time like you were living in a garage in Burbank like you were broke what was going after that I was I was I was a professional couch Surfer at that point in time you know uh even though you were your vocals on Katy lied and you were on Steely Dan songs I mean you were broke I was sleeping on couches yeah but I was uh you know when I got into my garage apartment that was like things were looking up you know it was like uh I had a board and two cinder blocks and a black and white TV and a uh an illegal bathroom with a sink where I washed my dishes and shaved you know um and that was in the shower you know so I showered there too but you know I that was just uh I you know uh I I uh my my particular case had a little bit to do with you know I brought my sisters and my mom out from Cal from Missouri St Louis my mom's dream was to move to um California you know and so my sister Kathy and I kind of you know uh we we kind of made that uh move for her and uh so rather than live in the house with these three women who I love dearly but you know that would be a recipe for you know uh mental disaster for me I I would you know kind of stay out for the week usually staying with friends and playing those gigs staying at one of the guys places or or uh maybe some girlfriend I had at the time but I was a kind of pretty much a couch server and pretty much the entire sum of my life was in my car you know uh it was it was it was in those circumstances where you're essentially sounds like you really don't have a lot of cash and you're living as you say out of your car or couch surfing it was in that context in which a an offer would come your way that would actually change your life yeah sure it was uh yeah I Jeff Baxter had you know he he was you know like myself you know just uh he had an apartment that he rented and Jeff was a guitarist for the doie brothers y but Jeff never came off the road he was never there he he he would be out on the road with the you know who God knows who uh uh Doobie Brothers Elton John yeah and whoever was ending their tour he would just make a phone call and fly to the next tour and go on that and uh he was just trying to you know we were all kind of living uh paycheck to paycheck you know at that point it was if in a way it was like we were making good money at at a certain stage but U it was a musician's lifestyle of just yeah we did live uh with a a checking account cash we weren't really business people we weren't really very smart with our money we just you know we got the best apartment we could afford and we someplace to keep our gear and we you know we we always looked we were always looking at the next gig whatever that was and uh so uh Jeff called me uh much like the call I got from Jeff Marl and uh he said hey uh uh dubes are on the road and I'm out with them right now and Tommy's uh you know been kind of ill lately and he had to kind of come off the road and and uh uh get some medical help you know back in San Francisco the band wants to keep wants to finish out this tour you know uh and so I mentioned you and that you could probably help us with some vocals and and play and bring keyboards because they hadn't had a keyboard player up to that point so uh and they were all kind of up for that idea because Bill Payne had figured so heavily into some of their recordings uh and U I was a little nervous because I know Bill Payne but I thought well I could probably cover this stuff and and uh and I'm not going to say no you know and I mentioned to him I I I don't really have a lot of money right now I don't know how I'll get down to New Orleans he goes there's a ticket waiting for you uh there'll be per DM when you get here so you have money to to operate on while we're on the road and it'll be a you know ,500 bucks a week which was like unheard of money you know just me you know I can I just po interrupt you for a moment sorry interrupt but the Doobie Brothers were a huge band yeah they were they were asking you to be the frontman of the band was any part of you like oh my God this is this is kind of scary like like I'm going to be the front man of this band that millions of people love who and know their music well I was a little trepidacious about all of it about you know uh because the the uh the the void that that Tommy left you can as you can imagine was huge of all the people to not go you know he he and Pat were the guys they wrote all the songs they sang the songs uh so either one of those guys not being there was a huge void you know and I I'm walking into this and I'm thinking you know I just I had kind of uh I was all about the exercise of don't think too much just say yes and do it you know because those were the things that that uh would work out in surprising ways and and this was one of them uh and so I rehearsed with them for two days learned the whole show and then we went we finished out the tour for the better part of that year we were out for like 6 months after that and wound up um in Hawaii kind of like a a g the last gig was kind of designed to uh afford the band uh two weeks in kawaii for some RNR and uh that was you know bedum to say the least you know well Michael tell me what what that was like it you get this call hey come to New Orleans and sing our music right and in front of presumably thousands of people I mean you're you're like living couch surfing in LA and all of a sudden like a few days later you're going to be on a stage in front of 10 thousand maybe more people with the dubie brothers was what was that experience like for you I mean was any part of you just terrified it was surreal it really was and Jeff had totally gone you know put his uh endorsement on the line it wasn't like I auditioned he told them I could come in and cover this thing and that you know not to worry and I will be forever grateful to him for having that faith in me and and and you know putting his relationship with these guys on the line like that you know um and I remember that first gig so well because I it was we were in New Orleans my father was living in New Orleans at the time so I got together with him for dinner then after our rehearsals and uh the next night was our first my first gig with them in shreport so he and I made plans uh and I okayed it with the road manager that U I would drive up with him to the gig he made sure I knew where it was and all that and so my father we and I drove up there we found this venue it was this big circular Arena uh you know I'm thinking this is a huge building and uh we found the the backstage door which is not easy in a round building you know uh but we saw where the trucks were we went in and we did the sound check and all of a sudden from rehearsal now I'm 10 feet away from the nearest sky on this huge stage yeah in An Empty Arena uh playing louder than we ever I ever dreamed we would play you know uh with this huge PA and so the night of the by the time the gig came on and they had these these uh catered meals and dinners and all that was like First Rate kind of thing you know my Dad I'm sure was thinking who's paying for all this you know uh so he and I went up on stage before the show while the lights the house lights were up and people were coming into their seats and my a road manager said you want to sit on stage and watch the show my dad said sure So I went up with him and sat next to him while I waited for the band to come out and uh sitting there with my dad in the house lights up I'm watching this place fill up you know and there's like 10 15,000 people you know I'm thinking wow yeah uh and they're all expecting to see Tommy Johnson you know and I'm GNA get up there and sing one of his songs and I don't know how it's going to go you know um but uh sitting there with my dad and uh all of a sudden the house lights the road manager says you ready and I go yeah sure I'll just stay right here when the band comes up I'll just walk out you know the house lights go out the Crowd Goes Up in a massive Roar you know singular massive Roar and the drummers are already up there on they're starting off Jesus and everybody knows Tom Johnson's not gonna be there what's that they the audience knows that Tom Johnston is not gonna be there I don't think I don't know that they did you know uh wasn't like it was made real public or anything but uh so uh drummers start the thing and the crowd is just you know gone up in a giant Roar and are on their feet already and uh I'm thinking you know the last time my dad heard me play was in Panorama bowling alley uh the lounge in Belleville Illinois in front of like 25 people yeah well maybe you know and uh and here we are playing in front of these people so I'm thinking I'm trying to imagine what he's thinking you know yeah hoping that he's thinking well maybe I made the right choice in my career but uh anyway it was it was uh it was a night of a lot of uh you know just a whole new awareness for me you know and and of course when I sang uh the couple songs I sang I felt like I was strapped to the nose of an atlas rocket you know and uh I could hear people in the crowd you know like where's Tommy you know and uh but you know uh we got through it and and uh Tom did come back for a while uh he had some serious health issues you know uh uh stuff with his gut back then that was uh yeah was was really you know you know crucial to his health and uh so he didn't really have a choice and and we we finished out the tour um then there was a period of time when I I I don't you know uh I think Tom had was looking towards maybe doing a solo career he did a solo great solo album and uh but I think a lot of it had to do with accommodating his health issues at the time you know that that kind of touring and that grind was just too much you know and yeah would would you know over the years all kind of tick turns buckling here and there with with it all and and you know uh we we went through a few Road managers in those days too you know Michael I know you were brought on originally as a temporary replacement for Tom Johnson but of course you would become the front man for the Dey Brothers you know obviously many people know the hit taking it to the streets but when you got there to just fill in for him right you had to perform listen to the music and Jesus is just all right and blackwat and China Grove like you had to sing those hit songs um were you trying to channel Tom Johnston or did you go into it saying you know I've got this voice and I'm going to apply my sound to these songs oh I I think I was just trying to sing as best I could you know I wasn't really thinking about too much of I love the songs I still to this day beautiful songs one of my main reasons for coming back with the dubes for the 50th was I I I love the hang and I love everybody in the band we're all good friends for many years but I love that book of songs that we play I love Tom's and Pat's songs as much as I love my own and I I missed playing them you know over the years um even though I did the solo thing for a long time and that was something different for me but I I always missed the Doobie Brother song book you know um but Pat and I split the songs you know Pat did uh a lot of Tommy took over a lot of time to songs and I took over the other half of them for the times that Tom wasn't there uh yeah and uh Pat was really guy pretty much the the front man for he always he's always when Tom was there he took over that that role as frontman uh Tom did that for the most part when the guys were all together and with Tom when Tom was gone Pat kind of stepped into that role he was really not just the front man to the audience on the shows but Tom I mean Pat was also as far as all of us thought could see uh held the leadership capacity of the band he was uh he was the guy we all look to yeah band conscience you know uh and and you know we we all kind of look to his guidance in terms of what and where and how the band should operate on on any number of levels you Michael how how did you handle I mean even though you weren't as you say the front man in in quite the same way as Pat or you know as Tom had been you were still very visible I mean you were singing hit songs you know Grammy winning songs What a Fool Believes you know minute by minute um uh how did you feel on stage because I I I read a quote that you gave to an interviewer at one point maybe back in the day and you said you know I'm not not that comfortable on stage as a person yeah know I uh over the years even from the time I was a little kid I I I kind of developed this um like I was saying earlier you know my family everybody there in my family seemed to have the confidence to just speak their mind whenever and I kind of learned to make a point to not speak my mind because i' usually kind of uh would be a regretful situation because I you I just wasn't that good at that you know and uh so as an Entertainer I kind of felt the same way I felt like I loved being the guy who got to play keyboards got to write songs for the band got to sing those songs live but I was so comfortable with Pat doing all the talking because I really did not want to do that you know I didn't want to have to have that responsibility of kind of keeping things rolling I'm you know kind of a Master of Ceremonies if you will you know yeah Pat did it really always did it really well you know uh he was always very sincere and the audience always really kind of uh loved his Persona on stage so you know it was just it was a win-win for all of us especially for me because I I had no uh desire whatsoever to take on that role yeah but presumably you started to get public attention media attention like who's this guy Michael McDonald I mean You' gone from being a sort of session musician for Steely Dan to a pretty visible role did that happen did you start to get attention that you had to kind of figure out like here we are now I mean you're you know you're in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but but you're doing an interview now but did you have to start doing those things and how did you navigate that at the time um it's a learning curve you know I mean uh when it when that started to happen and the Publishers started to pull me in for interviews with the band and things um you know you you you learn what's uh what to do and what not to do real quick in an interview you know you learn that uh you know you don't uh you don't enter certain subject matter in an interview that you if you don't want it to be blown out of proportion you know like uh I remember one interview I did I mentioned to a guy uh oh something about uh feeling uh uh you know that uh you know we we would smoke a little pot on the road or something and you know that became a you know like a you know drug addict Mike McDonald you know yeah yeah so I I it seemed like that was what the guy focused on you know was it the music and uh what it was we were doing out there and what our relationship with our audience was was became very little of the article and the article became uh the hook was that I might possibly have a drug problem which I did but uh you know wasn't to to the guy's credit he he understood that uh maybe more than I did at the time but uh but I remember that you know don't bring that up in an interview don't bring up uh you know anything uh that you might do recreational or being bored on the road because it'll be perceived as you know bouts of depression while on the road you know uh but uh and I think that was kind of what the subject matter was I we talked about how boring it can be on the road with that you know we're we're we're you know moving is the you know sometimes is the the best part of the day because otherwise you're in a hotel room and you're not really you know doing much but watching television and uh you know deciding to go eat again you know so yeah but you know um Michael when when when Pat Patrick Simmons left the band right this around 82 um the dubie brothers tried to continue on but you all kind of decided it just wasn't working and and the band kind of split right and was that I mean you had now You' had this sort of seven-year period of being in one of the biggest bands in the United States um what what do you remember about that period I mean did you go through like a I don't know a low Point did you kind of feel like um you know did your career stall for for for a brief period of time or you know what what do you remember about your state of mind I mean you had a a day I mean your solo debut album would come out that year but I wonder when the Dobie Brothers broke up did you feel like kind of like how you felt when Steely Dan when the Steely Dan thing ended uh kind of yeah uh I I remember it seemed like after the dues broke up that was a tricky thing too because uh I'm not even sure that a lot of people in the organization weren't mad at me as if I did it we we showed up at a rehearsal ostensibly to rehearse the show without Pat with the idea that we might go out and tour as jie brothers M and I remember the first song playing it down and uh I just you know I think I just stopped and decided that somebody's got to say it and I'm only saying what everybody else must be thinking you know yeah that there are no original duie Brothers in this room at this point you know uh Tyran wasn't even there Tyran you know uh uh if tyan and John Hartman had even still been there there would have been some Link to the Past you know yeah but uh and I my I just questioned the idea that you know who you know I realized that there's a lot of us there a lot of people outside the band that this is their livelihood there's like 30 40 people that worked for this organization and uh this is hard to say but you know without Pat Uh are we really The Doobie Brothers anymore are we just you know a kind of a cover band of the Dobie brothers and and is that really fair to the audience you know and uh so we called it that day and and that was it I never uh I never heard from anybody again for a while while uh and I and I you know I I I I think maybe some guys perceived it as oh he wants to go off and do his solo thing now yeah and that really wasn't it for me I I I was uh apprehensive about the whole solo thing I never wanted to do the solo thing why not why didn't you want to be a solo artist I was just happy being a dubie brother you know uh was stardom not there was no appeal to being like I don't know a star or in any way or once I once I was committed to the idea I thought well hopefully I'll do an album that's good enough to get on the radio and I can start touring with my own band but uh wasn't like that was my my main motive for Le rehearsal that day or it really was just about the fact that you know you know the the dubie brothers are not they they don't exist anymore and none of us here are prepared to take over the leadership role in front in front the band now that Pat's gone you know I certainly wasn't you know um you know it wasn't like we really had a a natural capacity among between all of us to carry this thing on you know but in the solo tour the solo album deal I got was really Warner's idea you know at the time and uh um you know I I had done the album with with P Teddy and uh Lenny warer and uh they did a great job of producing it um but it seemed like every album I was hoping to do you know I was hoping to catch that ledge you know that I could of stand on and then develop as a solars but it seemed every album kind of fell under that ledge and didn't quite get there and uh and I was not uh exactly thought of as a a going concern as far as tour in act goes you couldn't get interest from promoters not not much you know and I did put the band together and and play and tour a little bit but I don't think uh at the end of that tour anybody saw me as a real you know uh oh yeah we got to you know got to make an even bigger tour with this guy was kind of like okay you know uh I uh I had a great band edar winter uh Willie weeks on bass uhy on drums Robin Ford on guitar uh Brian man on keyboards uh uh Edgar witer you know and you had a hit I mean I mean I keep forgetting uh every time uh you're near a lot of people will recognize that song later generations of course because Warren G used that in his song regulate um uh and so there was but by the way what did you make of that of of of how it was used and regulate oh well you know when I first heard it I I uh I didn't you know I I I my my kids loved it you know that was all I really could I the only way I could really gauge it was that was a massive song I mean it was a massive hit yeah I didn't you know really participate in that financially that much uh they paid us a fee to used the sample and that was about it you know uh but uh uh you know I remember my kids to them you know they they preferred Warren's version much over mine know uh and uh but you know it was it was interesting to see that that was that beginning of that whole kind of phenomena of uh sampling and uh yes hip hop you know using older records to uh you know build uh new copyrights on and stuff so that all had to be sorted out yet you know uh in terms of how the business model worked on that you know you had sorry keep going no I so anyway uh but you with each record I I felt like I was I was gaining more in my own identity with myself than I was with an audience or or or any kind of Commercial Success oh I I had a couple hits from different records uh you know uh and then sweet freedom and on my own were certainly uh with Patty Lael on my own great track opportun and sweet freedom for Running Scared I love that remember that movie remember that video yeah great song and so those things sustained me during that whole period of time and it allowed me to go out and tour and so we started to build our touring uh audience out there and and little by little I but I I'm kind of grateful for the time being because I wasn't working that much I was touring a little bit and then a little more and until I into like what would you would actually call a summer season of touring but during that time my son was a little and my daughter had just been born so it gave me a chance to be home with them uh and uh that was a blessing you know for me and I think if I had had the opportunity to tour if there had been any kind of demand for me to do it I would have felt compelled to do that I would have felt like I need I needed to go out and uh you know make that opportunity work for all the people involved not just myself but all the my managers and agents and the band and you know all that you always have a certain sense of responsibility to the people you work with as much as anything you're trying to accomplish yourself you know yeah Michael I'm curious about uh this period in your life I mean on the one hand you were doing you were making a lot of music that was reaching I mean on my own and sweet freedom and you were making music but but that period of time or maybe slightly before that the mid 80s you've described as the worst lowest point in your in your career um and at the time you told in an interview you said I would have been dead by the 90s if IID carried on like that you were um abusing drugs and alcohol tell me what was what was going on in your life um at the time H H why do you it's a complicated question how how did that happen but but I I wonder what what you make of of your own experience um you know really it just comes down to I was an addict you know I I was prone to addiction and uh for there's probably all kinds of psychological reasons but I think it really has to do with I I I came from a a a long line of uh people who you know uh drinking was a problem you know uh I I you know it's not for me to say who but my you know my my great uncles and you know uh uh not all of them but you know a few a couple of them were uh you know notoriously uh you know controlled by John Barley barley corn and uh um and I because of that uh I remember as a kid thinking I'm not going to do that and I'm not gonna smoke cigarettes and I'm not going to drink because it doesn't look to really agree with people you know and and I remember as a kid thinking that men usually passed away in their 60s only women lived to be in their 80s because most of the men of that generation of the of the Great War generation my my my grandfather and his brothers who all were in World War I um you know they a lot of them had died drinking you know Uncle BR Uncle Edgar and uh um you know and in my family alcohol was not talked about it was it was like uh you know we all talk about that you know like like most Irish Catholic families it was like you know if you could sweep it under the rug you know or you know be in denial of it you however you had to manage that that's what you did you didn't talk about it and certainly didn't let it you know uh sneak out the front door too many any more than you had to uh but you know uh they were wonderful people there wasn't there was nothing wrong with them they they just had a problem with alcohol at some point in their lives and and I did too uh you know if I look back on it to sit around and look for the reasons and try to analyze my way out of the all I have to really understand is is that I'm an addict and uh I have to take life one day at a time and um you know live it uh in a way today that uh precludes me from feeling the need to pick up a drink because yeah you know if I get in the ring with this thing again by myself uh I'm going to get my ass kicked it's just that simple you know and uh so uh I'm grateful you know grateful to God that uh um I'm beyond that today you know where I don't know where I'll be tomorrow none of us do but you but you've been sober I mean I think you became sober shortly before the birth of your first kid right I mean about a year before he was born in 86 was when I got so w and you I take no credit for that uh other than uh I I was lucky enough to have one of those U non- coincidences you know that happened in my life you know that uh I remember distinctly the moment that I I don't think there was enough univer uh willpower rather in the entire Cosmos if I could have mustered it all in a moment I wouldn't have been able to beat my addictions uh it just wasn't going to happen until got to that place where I I accepted that total defeat and I was never going to I think my outthink this thing you know yeah never going to rise above it you know that I was uh I was beaten you know uh that was the beginning of uh of where I could actually you know uh face the next day and then every day after that hopefully with uh minus alcohol and drugs and um and um like I said I reason I say I don't take any credit for it is uh if I started taking credit for it I'd probably be drinking again pretty quick so so who or what gets the credit um you know I think uh I'd have to say a higher power than me you know uh uh and and it's and it presents itself to me on many levels you know it presents itself itself to me on the people I choose to associate with today but yeah I think life for all of us is is basically a an ongoing conversation with god however you understand God and it's not for me to say that what how you should understand God I'm not sure how I understand God I just I've never believed in God more because I got to that place where I knew I I didn't have it in me you know and that God in whatever form he took in my life did for me what I could not do for myself I of that I have no doubt you know um yeah beyond that I don't need a a picture ID of God I don't need a conditional relationship with God where he's a certain sex or she's a certain sex or was born on a certain day I I just believe that God is unfathomable and I'm okay with that uh my experience has been that uh I've always had to trade whatever God I I had on you on a bigger God as as life uh required I do you know and um and it's it's brought me closer to uh belief that if uh I can get to today somehow in connection with uh a god of my understanding today which is the god I don't understand but uh uh then that whatever the will of that Consciousness is is the best shot I've got at Living this life uh uh and and uh having all the reasons in the world to be grateful you know um I I find that I I really have to remind myself by way of uh you know the people I again I associate with uh the the I'm reminded to be grateful and when I'm in a state of gratitude uh that's when it's the easiest for me to live this life you know Michael I'm curious about your songwriting process because you have I from what I I understand you you suffer through um a little bit of a curse of perfectionism which can be a huge hindrance to the creative process when you're so focused on getting everything right it can really slow things down because you're scared not to get it right do you still suffer from that and if not how have you worked to overcome the you know this Obstacle of perfectionism I I don't know that I think of myself as a perfectionist I would just be happy if I had a decent idea once in a while you know I mean I I that's that's really more my fear that you don't think you have decent ideas well I I I do ultimately you know get one or two and then I wrestle it to the ground and and hopefully don't ruin it before you know I mean that's really I'm being honest with you I I feel like uh you know that that concept of what a good song is is that that's the ever elusive thing it's not the perfect song that I'm worried about it's just what is a sincere and good song what is a song that another person's going to hear and go wow yeah I I I identify with that I get that you know um those are hard to come by for me I'm not prolific writer I'm not that guy that I I've written with guys in Nashville that they go in every day and they write a song every day yeah uh and they're good you know most of them are good songs you know that's not me you know uh there's songs I've been writing for years that I you know I don't know if I'll ever finish but uh I'm still waiting for the rest of the idea to formulate in my head you know and I and I do that a lot with songs I I I wait for the song to write itself you know I I'll get an idea for a song and I don't push it I don't try to finish it I I'll I'll just you know it's like a cat playing with a A you know balloon or something like just kind of knock it around in the air hoping that it'll reveal itself to me yeah sometimes that happens when I'm behind the wheel you know uh I remember when I with taking to the streets I was driving home from a club gig and I just I knew what the chorus musically could should kind of do but I really didn't know what the title should be and uh and it just it just kind of fell into my lap and while I was driving and that happens quite a few times to me that seems to be a a a space where uh my brain unlocks itself and and Things become apparent to me that might not if I wasn't preoccupied with driving yeah um it it taken to the streets just popped in my head and I but that's that's it that's that's the the refrain that's the song that's the and uh that's happened to me many times I you know I I would go out and uh you know I'd have some Melodies on a cassette or something back in the days when we used cassettes and I would hear myself mumbling and it would sound like I said something and all a sudden I go well phonetically that sounds really good or I wouldn't have made that noise when I was yeah playing the chords but it sounded like I said this and all of a sudden I realized well that's the lyric you know that's that's the you know it would be almost by accident that I would come up with the idea you know and of course I write with other people too so a lot of times they finish the ideas that you know I I might start but uh it takes my collaboration with them to really see the song come through you know uh I remember with What a Fool Believes uh I had the piano kind of movement in the verse you know and uh some lyrics you know I had written them on on an envelope coming from New York and kind of kept the envelope on my piano and and I I had you know I just knew that I wanted something that felt like that you know uh and uh it reminded me of some old R&B and gospel songs that I I always liked and some of the Four Seasons early Cuts you know reminded me of that too it was something somewhere between that kind of early pop music and and the R&B music that I heard in St Louis growing up and gospel music uh I'd heard that yeah I was you know just some vague idea of how this record might sound when we got it done and I played it for Teddy templeman and soon as I played him that little bit I had he go man he goes that is a hit I'm telling you you got to finish that you know and I remember saying I I will I will I promise and of course I never did you know for like a year I was every once in a while I'd get together with him and I'd play him that he go play me that thing again you think you play I'd play it and he's maybe the only reason I actually remembered it you know and but he always just you know he'd always say man you please finish that whatever you do so I had gotten to uh Tyran Porter had passed along Kenny Lin's number to me uh said Kenny had he had run into Kenny and Kenny expressed some interest in writing with me would he give me his number you know so I called Kenny and we made a date to get together at my house so my sister got wind of it because she came up with uh to clean my bachelor filthy house you know it was like ashay's piled of cigarettes on the piano and half empty everything you know uh glasses of mold you know I mean it was awful I was I was a slob you know and um so I was going through some ideas notebooks looking for anything that might be a something I a germ of some idea that I wrote down that I could maybe start with if we didn't know what else to do there might be something in these notebooks or some uh cassette uh you know idea and I remember I had that little piece of piano music and how Ted loved it and I I was playing things for my sister and she was like that's good you you you know but she's feverishly cleaning up my house around me and uh before Kenny got there I was just hoping I'd come up with some ideas to have in in my Arsenal uh you know and I played her that bit of the verse of What a Fool Believes she kind of looked at me and she just got what yeah you know that's that's okay you know and uh right then the doorbell rang and uh she freaked because she had her long as and Ms albums and her Sharpie there ready to you know get Kenny to sign him and uh so I went went to the door and uh opened the door and and here's Kenny with a a bag full of notebooks and tape recorder and his guitar and you know uh and I you know I could see he was kind of struggling so I I took his guitar or one of the things that I said here let me help you you he I came on in I said man I'm I'm so excited about getting together he goes before we say anything he goes you were just playing something on the piano he goes is that something new and I said well yeah as a matter of fact I was playing for my sister uh because I was hoping that maybe it it might be something we could work on he goes perfect he goes I want to start with that he had already written the the B section of the song outside the door before I even opened it wow because he heard me playing the piano thing and immediately in his head he went to the she had a place in her life and without the words but he he do the melody had to go somewhere like that and so uh I showed him the words I had and so then we came up with the words for that section and we didn't have a chorus till the next day we song we left it unfinished thinking we got to have a good chorus on this yeah so he went on home back to Santa Barbara and next morning I was messing around with some ideas I called and we got on the phone and I I don't know what part of that I I I I think it was the key change I thought you know this might be an interesting place to go musically and what are we talking about here with the song you know uh and and it seemed the culmination of the idea of the lyrics was two people who are looking back on the same event in their lives with totally different ideas of what actually happened yeah guys thinking that it was this long lost great love of his that he might have a chance at rekindling and to her he was not barely on the radar you know and she just was he was just an old friend that she agreed to have dinner with and had no inclination whatsoever to rekindle beir and and so she just says her good nights and leaves and he's left with this you know still believing in his heart that maybe there's a chance you know uh because What a Fool Believes no wise man has the power in a reasonal way you know yeah so uh you know that that how that's how that song came about and uh but for Kenny you know uh I probably would still be something I'd play for Teddy templeman every once in a while and Chas for not having finished um Michael one of the things that I that that I love about um you is you've kind of over the years I think in a it's a it's a fondness for your your voice and obviously you are have been a highly sought after vocalist on so many records Christopher Cross and and so many others Carly Simon um and over the years you've been there's been sort of parody tributes to you right um there's a famous one that Rick Moranis did on on um Second City TVV in the 80s where just it's Michael McDonald driving from one Studio to another just at the right time getting there and you know singing the right the right lyric for Ride Like the Wind such such a long way to go sorry I'm and then and then you yourself did something with Jimmy Fallon and Justin Timberlake many years ago where you all three are Michael McDonald there they've got gray you know beards and hair and there you're seeing RoR rowo your boat and and you it seems like you you really appreciate and then enjoy you kind of like that that kind of poking a little bit I I do I mean I think it's I'm flattered that anyone even bothers you know uh my kids always got a big kick out of like the Family Guy and any parodies yeah right Family Guy when it was in its earliest stages as a viral thing on the you know computers on online and um and I we we we would sit and laugh for hours you know at this stuff you know and uh so it was uh I used I've always told my son too who is a musician songwriter and I'd say you know Hey listen you know when your music becomes less relevant as everyone's music does at some point uh your pathetic comic value may come in handy so you know don't laugh you know uh but I uh I remember the Rick moranda thing I I came into my room that night uh I had been with Pat Simmons and after the gig we came back to his room um he uh said to me goes man I got this joint that you're not going to believe this stuff he goes it's it's it's you can't smoke very much of it it's like psychedelic and and he and I went to his room we're just kind of shooting the breeze and I took a couple hits off the joint I remember I got kind of scary High you know I remember it was kind of like I said Pat I I got to go to my room and lay down said I'm I'm way too high right now and and I left his room and I used to leave my TV on in my motel room so that somebody wouldn't break in while we were at the shows and uh or they think someone was there and then and when I came into the room that Rick Moranis bit was in in process on satv was playing out on the television and I'm like I'm thinking am I really losing it that guy looks really familiar and there's playing this Christopher Cross song and I started to get the gist of the skit and I'm I'm I thinking that you know I'm having a like a flashback or something you know and uh it it just was the the most surreal experience I can as I can remember then I realized it was a joke and it was a skit and U I actually ran into Rick Moranis backstage with the The Rock and Soul review he came down to see the show with Donald and Walter and U boss gags BB snow and everybody and he he actually apologized to me for the skin I said no I said I loved every minute of it and yeah you know um those are just those good good fun for me you know 40y old virgin you know was uh I enjoyed all that right 40 for Michael you're I mean you are immortalized in the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame you're there you're in there when when you think about how you want like if there is if you ever think about it like a legacy or how you want people to remember you or your music you know in 30 or 40 years from now how how do you want to be remembered uh you know I think uh you know my designs for the music industry wanting to be a part of the record industry I guess is what it was making records as an artist um I think the only way I I really care about being remembered is if I'm that record that comes on your radio on your Oldies Channel and you reach over and crank it up you know while you're driving uh and I bring that kind of joy to you that so many times artists brought to me when I was in my car just cranked the radio because oh there's that song you know and I remember where I was when I heard that song and all that stuff that comes with it you know uh that's that's the uh real Legacy I I even when early on when I first got to California I uh remember like going you know into office buildings for whatever reason and U there'd be musac on the elevators yeah and I remember thinking to myself if I ever hear one of my songs on musac I'll know I made it because it was all these you know great 101 strings playing ber backck and you know yeah so that was that was kind of like a dream of mine is to get on an elevator someday and what a dream yeah but I mean mostly it's just that that idea that I could bring an inkling of the joy that all those artists in the 60s brought me you know yeah well I I think you uh have you has has there been musac there must be musac made of your work I think there was a minute by minute I heard music I felt like I could die now you know yeah Michael McDonald thank you so much man thank you guy I appreciate it it's been fun talking to you hey thanks so much for watching my conversation with Michael McDonald if you want to see more videos like this please subscribe to this channel WE Post new conversations every single week and of course we are an audio podcast too just search for the great creators wherever you listen to podcasts and please click follow so you never miss a new episode I'm guy RZ this has been the great creators from built of Productions we will be back right here with another episode next week see you then