He Survived Cancer Twice. He Says Depression Was Worse. | Terry Bradshaw

When Terry Bradshaw finally sought help for depression, he spent over a year with a preacher, a marriage counselor, and a psychologist before seeing a psychiatrist who prescribed medication. He credits that process with ending the worst of his panic attacks. If something feels persistently wrong, t
October 26, 2026 2h 3m
Summary published by 1% Better, updated October 26, 2026.
Rich Roll Podcast
Key Takeaway

If something feels persistently wrong, take a first step toward a professional, even if it is just a call to a therapist or your doctor. Bradshaw started with his pastor, not a specialist.
His point is that men in particular tend to avoid help, and the cost of waiting is high. Knowing what triggers a depressive episode, recognizing it early, and having one trusted person who can intervene makes the illness more manageable over time.
Episode Overview

How does someone live a rich, entertaining public life while quietly carrying depression, cancer, an identity crisis, and decades of self-doubt?
Terry Bradshaw, four-time Super Bowl champion and longtime Fox NFL Sunday co-host, joins Rich Roll to discuss his memoir Looking for Terry. The conversation moves from football strategy to mental health to leadership to what it takes to finally feel comfortable in your own skin at 78.
Three threads run through the discussion:
Playing scared vs. playing free. Bradshaw argues that fear of being benched cost him years of peak performance, and that coaching style had everything to do with it.
Seeking help openly. He spent three years in therapy and takes daily medication for depression, and says he is proud of that decision.
Identity beyond the game. Losing football, dealing with the public's fixed image of you, and building a life with genuine purpose across multiple careers is a recurring theme.
The memoir is described as unusually candid for an athlete book, less a victory lap than an honest account of the costs paid along the way.
Main Insights

1. Seek help early and follow it through to the right specialist

Bradshaw describes waiting through years of panic attacks and depressive spells before getting a diagnosis. When he finally sought help, it took a preacher, a marriage counselor, a psychologist, and eventually a psychiatrist to arrive at the right treatment.
He is direct about the gender pattern: women tend to go when something feels wrong; men resist until the situation is severe. His message to men listening is that seeking help is something to be proud of, not ashamed of.
The practical sequence he describes:
A year of therapy before medication
Three additional years of talk therapy
Learning what triggers his episodes
Building a shared language with his wife so she can spot warning signs early
He still has episodes, but they are shorter and less severe. Having language for what is happening, and one person who knows the signs, makes a meaningful difference.
2. Fear of failure shrinks your performance more than any opponent

Bradshaw says he does not believe he was the best player he could have been, and his reason is specific: he played too many years afraid of being benched.
He describes throwing a ball into the turf on a clear completion against Buffalo, the crowd already booing, his body making the safe choice instead of the right one. Playing scared produces exactly the failure you are trying to avoid.
He traces this to his coach's philosophy of tearing players down rather than building them up, and contrasts it with his college coach Mickey Slaughter, who would not let him get down on himself. Under Slaughter, he felt he could do anything.
The question worth sitting with: in your current situation, are you making the sound decision or the one that protects you from looking bad?
3. Positive reinforcement produces better results than fear-based pressure

Bradshaw has had coaches on both ends of the spectrum, and he is clear about which produced better work from him. When someone shows him care and belief, he says, he will run through walls. When he is managed by the threat of punishment, he plays scared.
He connects this directly to the evolution of coaching, arguing that the drill-sergeant model common in the 1970s was not a good long-term strategy, and that coaching has improved partly because people now understand this.
His own leadership style mirrors what he wished he had received:
Involving people in decisions so they feel respected
Refusing to berate anyone in front of others
Expressing disappointment privately and indirectly
Leading by example rather than by volume
The limitation he also acknowledges: this style made it hard to fire people who needed to be let go, and he waited far too long in each case.
4. Knowing your triggers makes depression more manageable

Bradshaw describes his depressive episodes with a specific image: it is like watching the sun go down. He can feel it coming before it arrives.
That early awareness, built through years of therapy, changed how the illness works for him. He knows what tends to bring an episode on. His wife knows the signs. They have shared phrases she uses when she notices him going quiet and withdrawing.
The episodes do not disappear, but they do not last as long.
He also describes the value of medication plainly: he did not even know he was still taking it because his wife had been giving it to him daily without him registering it. When he found out, his response was relief, not embarrassment. The combination of self-awareness, a trusted partner, and professional treatment is what he credits.
5. The path to a good life usually looks messy from the inside

Bradshaw was benched multiple times during the same season the Steelers won a Super Bowl. He bombed his first year in broadcasting so badly CBS sent him to Alaska to cover the Iditarod, a posting he initially took as an honor. He failed at business deals, stayed in bad professional relationships far too long, and was called a flop on live national television.
His point, and Rich Roll's, is that people see the end result and project a smooth arc onto it. The actual experience was potholed and slow.
Starting at the bottom is useful, not just a cliche. It forces skill development and exposes you to what you do not yet know. Bradshaw argues that he would not have survived in today's NFL because players are no longer given the time to grow that he needed in his first three years.
Notable Quotes

"The thing I loved to do was the thing that was driving me crazy."

Terry Bradshaw
"I don't think I was the best player I could be because I played too much in fear instead of being free."

Terry Bradshaw
"It's like watching the Sun go down and I'm watching it. It's fixing to get dark."

Terry Bradshaw
Action Items

Suggested exercises inspired by the conversation.
1
Map your own triggers for low periods
Bradshaw spent years in therapy learning what reliably preceded his depressive episodes. You can start a simpler version on your own.
1. Think of two or three recent stretches when you felt noticeably low or anxious.
2. Write down what was happening in the days before each one: sleep, conflict, pressure, isolation, travel.
3. Look for any pattern across the examples.
The goal is not a diagnosis. It is having some language for what tends to precede a difficult period, which makes it easier to respond rather than just react.
2
Tell one person what your early warning signs look like
Bradshaw and his wife developed shared phrases for when his depression is arriving. She notices when he goes quiet and withdraws, and she acts on it before the episode deepens.
- Choose someone who spends real time with you.
- Describe one or two specific behaviors that tend to show up when you are struggling, things you might not notice yourself.
- Ask them to name it when they see it, without judgment.
This works because the person experiencing the episode is often the last to see it clearly.
3
Audit where fear is driving your decisions
Bradshaw describes throwing the ball into the turf with a receiver wide open because he was already scared of the crowd and the coach. The fear produced the exact outcome he was afraid of.

For one week, when you face a meaningful decision at work or in a relationship, pause and ask:
- Am I choosing this because it is genuinely the right call?
- Or am I choosing it to avoid criticism, embarrassment, or the possibility of failure?
The answer does not always change the decision, but seeing the motive clearly tends to.
4
Try something you have no reason to be good at
Bradshaw recorded five country albums, performs in Branson, gives corporate speeches, and raises quarter horses. He started most of them with no skill and no certainty they would work.
- Pick one activity outside your current identity or career that genuinely interests you.
- Give it a real try, not a sample. Enough time to get past the initial awkwardness.
- Notice whether it opens up something that your main work does not.
His argument is that trying broadly lets you discover what actually fits, rather than assuming your first lane is your only one.
Go deeper

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Full Transcript
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Much of my training is done on dark mornings either on busy roads or on trails shared with gravel bikers and various wildlife you're best to avoid so hearing what's around me that is essential to safety. Sealing myself off with earbuds really isn't an option but the trade-off has always been accepting every bit of wind and road noise on top of whatever I'm trying to listen to and the OpenFit Pro that's what you see right here solves that. Shocks built open ear noise reduction into an open ear design so the unwanted noise feels like it's been pushed farther away kind of like an invisible hand holding it back while you stay completely connected to what's happening around you so you get this focused listening experience without the isolation part. I don't know how they do it but they do and it's amazing. Plus flexible ear hooks and soft silicone that keep shocks locked in through a hard effort. They shrug off sweat and rain and they sit very comfortably under a beanie which is very important for me. The sound is genuinely rich it's a Dolby Atmos optimized and the battery runs for days and days of normal use and right now for listeners of the show you can visit shocks.com or click the link in the description box and use code richroll for a discount on all shocks products and it can be combined with other official promotions. I wanted to be the best. I wanted to be successful. That's all I thought about was winning and I just could shut it off. The thing I loved to do was the thing that was driving me crazy. You know Terry Bradshaw because he is synonymous with American football. First as a Hall of Fame quarterback who led the Pittsburgh Steelers to four Super Bowl titles in the 1970s and then as an outspoken broadcaster who has co-hosted Fox NFL Sunday since 1994. Along the way he's acted in movies, he's recorded country music albums, but less well-known and understood are the countless obstacles that he's faced and overcome along his very long and windy path. Like riding the bench in high school being considered a giant flop by everyone during his rookie year with the Steelers, surviving two bouts with two different kinds of cancer, an identity crisis, and a series of mental health challenges, all of which Terry details in his new memoir Looking for Terry and talks about today with remarkable candor. Super Bowl is over. Horribly depressed. Terribly depressed for weeks. I knew something was wrong and I knew that when I had these attacks I knew how sickening they were. It made me sick. It's like watching the Sun go down and I'm watching it. It's fixing to get dark. Terry's definitely a one-of-one and his larger-than-life personality definitely comes across in our wide-ranging conversation. I love it and I think it will leave you with learnings about life and maybe even a new and deeper understanding of one of America's most indelible characters. You did a great job with the book. It's a delight to have you here today and the book is great for maybe unexpected reasons. I think it's great because it's very honest. It's very vulnerable. You were willing to talk about things that maybe you haven't talked about publicly before or at least not much and it defies the kind of athlete memoir trope of the typical professional athlete who writes a book with the hopes that it will extend their career. So it's not always the most honest account of what actually happened. I mean it's a book about facing and overcoming obstacles. It's about perseverance and resilience and I think it's also so much about what people don't know. I'm of the age, like I grew up in Washington DC in the era of Joe Theismann and it was right in the pocket of when you were at your peak powers and so it's much like your favorite bands are the ones you were listening to when you were 16. It stays with you your whole life. So in my mind like this is the greatest era of football and it doesn't matter what anybody has done in the last 40 years like this still stands out as like the glory days. Sometimes you have to remind the viewer or the reader hey we were pretty good mm-hmm back in our day as they'd like as they'd phrase it back in our day we were pretty good and today in today's game it's then they can't get past you know the Brady's and the Manning's of the world and you know the rest of us were and I get it I mean sure I'm 78 I'm not 38 yeah who wants to hear about how great it was way back then yeah nobody right nobody let me talk about my suspension helmet we don't care about your problem but you have choice words about the NFL in you know the late 1970s and early 80s versus the NFL today you just want to Bill Maher and you you were you didn't edit your your thoughts on the differences so what was great about back then that's missing today and what's better about today in the NFL versus your time what what is missing is pretty obvious the the compact the the viciousness of it physical very physical rules didn't protect anybody yeah there was no rules there was I don't recall rules being enforced or being brought up to protect anybody it was you know a holding penalty I mean passing the Ferris back then I mean it was passing that was a total collision so I think I think the aspect of it being more physical is definitely the one thing that stands out and let's understand one thing what if so appealing about the NFL is the viciousness of it the gladiator of it that's what is so appealing remember networks used to show the greatest hits of the week and it was just like holy cow you see that there was you know awareness of CTE or no no we can have a romantic kind of relationship with that but like was that good yeah I mean I'm sure you we were all your friends that have suffered later in life as a result of that gladiator I played with Mike Webster but you asked me a question the physicalness the physical NFL in this heck 50 60 70s 80s the rules started coming into play but that's what was so great about it people asked me all the time all man what's it like to get hit by so-and-so and I well you know those guys don't hurt you as much as the guy you don't see the guy you don't see that gets a clean shot at you that's the one that hurts not the guy that was you know I didn't play against 300-pound guys are played with linemen that weight 300 pounds on the average when no one close to that we didn't play with guys that overall had the great speed that they have that day 4-4 was very common that was an occasional 4-3 but the degree of the game toughness versus the tech driven athleticism and now so you take you take that part of the NFL and then you come forward now you have injuries now you have people getting say we couldn't move either we couldn't go anywhere you're a stealer you stayed a stealer unless they cut you or traded you you weren't going anywhere nowhere you can go anywhere that's the big that's that's a huge huge difference and II I think that's that's played out over culture writ large like look at movies they used to go into the theater and they would get you know six weeks to develop an audience before getting pulled from the theaters and now if they don't have a good opening weekend they're gone yeah what's the average lifespan of the typical NFL player it's not very long they go into every game worried about getting cut or traded you weren't allowed to like cook for a while and develop your you know kind of skill over time and this comes across in the book right you you you have all these obstacles like it's not like just you hit it hard and we're great from the get-go you're you're on the bench and all that kind of stuff but you were allowed to develop because I'm just about to say that because of the short rope now players come out be a first pick in the draft or the first pick now in two years look what happened to the quarterback in Minnesota from Michigan first-round pick eighth eighth eighth eighth in the draft I think something like that now he's third turn now they're talking about where can he revive his career I came out the first pick in the draft and I struggled struggled and it took me my first year horrific second year a little bit better third year you know getting more comfortable with running the office fourth year definitely much better today I wouldn't have made it I would have been gone I would have been gone because I had to grow up I had to mature I had to get used to being booed I never was booed I had you know I had a tough coach we didn't have a coordinator had no offensive coordinator we had no quarterback coach we had we called our own plays we didn't have you know a placard on our on our wrists we it was all in our in our hands and so it was a lot of pressure and now as a league from the 70s evolved with the West Coast offense getting rid of the ball quicker Joe Montana then Bill Walsh's offense and Corey L's offense and San Diego and and it was fun to watch and more and more and more and more and more and now we've got a game where in the last I would say 25 years has been fun a lot of passing a lot of this a lot of that and it it got to a point late 80s going into the 90s rules and I think it's primarily probably because of lawsuits you know and the league really got into protecting a player we had players committing suicide their brains were examined autopsies performed came up with CTE you know it's it's a brain injury disease call it what you want where players just man they just lose that just lose their minds I mean Junior Seau committed suicide Mike Webster he just he just flat died he was out under bridges sleeping in cars we had another guy another stealer took his car on the highway saw a gas truck and just ran right into it blew it up and killed himself intentionally so we had the game had to that the game had to get control of itself and I think they've done a really good job really good job of trying to protect the players taking the hell the head out of the the equation with the hits and everything protecting the quarterbacks use of hands by the linemen so on so forth they've just done a really good job pass interference I mean just done a really good job of trying to protect the players but the minute the minute the collisions in and the minute you you take away the violence and I love to use that word because that's a great word I mean I think hockey's hockey's pretty bad man that's some bad stuff there I get a kick out of that but when you take all that out you're gonna take away part of the gladiator that the American public mm-hmm you know I don't know why why did we slow down why you asked yourself when you're on a highway rich and you're driving a traffic just what's going on you're looking up oh there must be a wreck and your little computer on your screen says you know there's a wreck on the highways and there's no reason it's on the other side but everybody's slowing down to take a look mm-hmm we were drawn to that I don't know I know what human nature the rubber necking yeah yeah yeah well amidst the kind of romance of all of that you like your words are pretty melancholic in the book about this like you have a complicated relationship with your playing days you know this yeah this is you know and and and also like a complicated relationship with Pittsburgh and Three Rivers Stadium and you know it's not what people think like it was difficult for you the booing and you know getting benched in this challenging you know relationship with the coach and all of that it isn't what people might imagine like oh it was so quiet Super Bowl MVP for you know all of it right that was that was the most complicated relationship that was kept private for the most part my mind with with Chuck Knoll to a point where it's unfortunate because when I started talking about it people said exactly what you just said oh we went Super Bowls it ought to be great and and the problem wasn't Pittsburgh and it wasn't Chuck Knoll, it was me because I had, I was the one that had to grow up. I had to grow up. Now, once I, once I was able to control me, which took a long time by the way, then... How are you doing with that now? I'm doing good. Then, then, then the relationship didn't bother me and I didn't care. If he didn't like me, I didn't care. I mean, I wasn't afraid of him anymore. Once I, once I lost that fear of him, then, then I was fine. But still, but still, anytime I was in his presence or... But there's coaching, there's coaching lessons in this too. Like part of it, yes, is you growing up and taking responsibility for how you're composing yourself in the midst of this... Well, you gotta know, you gotta know what, you gotta know what, you gotta know what, you gotta know in adversity, what do you respond to? How do you respond? Some people, Joe Namath, Joe didn't even faze him. It bothered me. It bothered me. I see like the little boy, Terry, who could have used a coach who was motivating him with a positive encouragement rather than that philosophy, you know, of the time, which was tear him down. Don't show him any love. This is how you harden somebody up. Right. I don't, I've had coaches like that in the past. Like this is not the way to, you know, develop an athlete to have a relationship with mastery over time. You know what I mean? I do. I think that you're slotted. Coaching has advanced quite a bit since then and I would hope that most coaches now understand, understand this. But, you know, in the 70s, like this wasn't the case. It was, you know, kind of a drill sergeant way of motivation that, that really is a not a good long-term strategy. You know what, you know what you respond to as a grown-up, as a man. I learned what I learned and then I compared what I respond to. If you, if you love, if you love me up, I'm, I'm, I'm yours forever. I'll do anything for you. I'll run through walls. I, nothing, nothing will stop me. I'll perform like you've never, I want you to be happy with me and pleased with me. And because you show me love and you're kind and I'm, I totally understand I'm in a competitive world. I'm not oblivious to that. I know I'm dealing with, with, I know what I'm dealing with it, with my job is to win and, and perform under pressure. I, but I'll, I'll handle it so much better. And my coach in college, for instance, was Mickey Slaughter and he played in the NFL for the Denver Broncos. And he just, he just, man, there wasn't anything I wasn't great at, wasn't anything I couldn't do. I mean, he just, he just would not let me get down on myself. And I loved him for it and I responded to that. And then I go to where, you know, if you don't play well, I'm benching your ass, you know, and you're, and you play scared. You can't play scared. That's, that's no good. I mean, it got so bad, Rich. I'm rolling. I'll never forget this. I'll give you one play. I'm rolling out against the Buffalo Bills at three river stadium. And the guy in front of me, our, our receiver has got nobody around him. I'm talking wide open. And I threw it right in the ground, right, right in the turf. Boo. I mean, but they were already booing, man. And it was just like, golly, that's what you call, that's not, that's, that's a person that can't handle pressure. You know, you don't, but then when you have, when you have all the confidence in the world, you thread the needle and a guy's hand misses it by a half an inch. Snap it right in there. We're also just feeling safe to take risks, you know, because even if people are booing, you know, the coach believes in you, has your back, your teammates believe in you. But there is, there's got to be more running scared today in the NFL versus then because of, you know, the realities of, of how short these careers are. Even if you have a coach that is reinforcing you with all the positive motivation in the world. If you're in the league eight or nine years and you're an NFL quarterback, they're, they're already talking about, we're going to have to find somebody to, to groom, you know, that very few Brady's that play 18, 19 years or Manning's that play 17 years or there's a lot of players that play 14, 15, 16 years. But now, now it's, we've got to, we've got to find that replacement, you know? And so there's a lot of pressure on these and these coaches and you're right, these coaches don't have, these coaches, they don't have, they don't have much time to be successful. It's, you know, they're on the line too. And I've said this, I say this on Fox a lot. My one thing is when they talk about, well, this, they got to fire this coach, get rid of this quarterback. And I said, you got to give them time. You got to let them implement their offer. You got to let them get the players they want. But these owners, you know, they don't have the patience for that. You know, they want to get, got to get rid of them and bring another one in. And I've always said, when you bring in a brand new coach, you should see some improvement somewhere, somewhere in your football team. There should be improvement. And if you don't see any improvement, you got the wrong guy. And that happens a lot where you get the wrong guy. When you reflect back on your life and your career, your successes, the challenges, et cetera, like how do you make sense of this? Like there's God given talent. You're, you're a natural born performer as an athlete and as a broadcaster. I mean, you're a character dude, you know, and you're doing what you should be doing. Like you're just bigger than life. So you're in the right spot for, for how you're kind of built, I think genetically. And I'm sure there is just tremendous hard work and resilience and all the like, but like you've lived a crazy life. It's been interesting. You know, I mean, it's been interesting. I don't know what I haven't done that doesn't, that's a part of entertainment. From movies to singing, I still sing. I still, how many albums you put out? Five. I want to do another gospel album. I've been singing in Branson. We were voted the number one limited show in Branson. I was like, oh that is so cool. And so we took a year off. I had to get a hip replacement surgery. So we took a year off. And so we'll go back to Branson next year. I love to sing and perform because it's a, it's another form of entertainment, you know. And I'm in my 33rd year at Fox doing a show. And so you try, you try. I would tell any young person coming out, I would say, try it all. If you get the opportunity, try it all. All right? More than likely, you're not going to be very good at it, but give it a shot. You know, it's, it's a, it's kind of, it may not even be in your bucket list or if you have one, if you even have one. But I just tried, I just tried everything and just, you know, and the, and the thing that, that I'm most proud of is that I did try everything. And now I know that I'm good at television and I can sing and entertain. I can perform. So I love that. And I give corporate speeches, which I love. Yeah. And that's three forms of entertainment. You do that. So what is the core theme or message of the motivational speeches? What are you hammering people with? I don't necessarily think of myself as a motivational speaker. Now, I think that's how they book me. It's, I'm kind of, I'm down to being a humorous now. The title of a speech has been for 40 something years is, why not your best? I'd never used that title. I've never even mentioned it, but I get a call one day, Hey, we got to give your speech a title. Really? Well, why we got to do that? Well, you know, they, we got to promote a way of promoting came up with, well, why not your best? But I've never. And what are the tenets? Like, what are you communicating in this speech or these speeches? No matter who you are, no matter what your position in life, no matter, no matter your, your wealth or lack of you're where it's human beings. Okay. I don't care who you are. Donald Trump, um, uh, the Pope, everybody is a human being. Everybody deals with depression, highs, lows. Everybody deals with failure. Everybody deals with, and, and everybody has had some form of success in their life. Everybody. And so I talk to them as humans and I, and my whole, my whole story, my whole speech is wrapped around human beings and how to treat people and how to face adversity and how to overcome it. And I add humor. It's filled with humor and I like to get out in the audience. I like to touch people. I like to shake their hand. I, no matter how big the crowd is. So the whole, the whole speech is based on the human being. And because I'm look, I'll talk to a banker on this Monday speech. And then Tuesday, I'm talking to engineers. Wednesday, I'm talking to farmers. And then Thursday, I'm talking to brain surgeons, all four different, all four different, but they're what come at the common denominator. They're all human. And so you have to, you have to, you have to strip the titles and walk out there. Now, most intimidating. I have been in a long time and given a speech. I was in Austin, Texas, and who was on the front row? Admiral Bill McRaven, the guy that orchestrated and designed the Osama bin Laden raid that killed him. He's right there. What are you going to tell this guy? Man, it, I'm not kidding. It tripped me. I'm like, that guy's a four-star Admiral. I mean, are you kidding me? This guy is smart. This guy is a seal. This guy's been through adversity. This guy knows what it's like to face pain and torture to get to a positive result. The end results always got to be positive. And it screwed with your head. Did you talk to him after? Yes. Yes. And what'd he say? He said, I love your speech. And I'm like, this is being nice, isn't he? So even you can have imposter syndrome. Oh yeah. I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. It, absolutely. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, um, oblivious to, to facing, um, fear and struggling with, I'm going to get Bill McRaven. Yeah. Autonomy wasn't something I was thinking much about when I recently got behind the wheel of a Rivian R2 with founder and CEO, RJ Scringe. But when RJ started talking about where Rivian is headed with it, I couldn't stop thinking about it after. What's your latest thinking on the short and long-term future of autonomous driving? I think short-term it's going to continue to get better for us. We get to a place by the end of this year where we'll do hands-off point-to-point navigation. So meaning you could plug the address and say, tell it to go and it'll drive there on its own. Today, we have hands-off what we call universal hands-free where you can take your hands off, it can drive, but it essentially stays on the path it's on. But the next step is to integrate that into navigation. So it, it navigates through turns, obviously stoplights, stop signs, everything. And that's this year. Next year, we get to that plus eyes-off. So we'll start with eyes-off on highways, so you can be completely removed. It doesn't beep. It doesn't beep. You can put your hands back. Yeah, you can do whatever you'd like. Yeah, you can do whatever you'd like. The autonomy and assisted driving features on the R2 today and the ones on the horizon are just part of what makes it such a compelling vehicle. You can learn all about the Rivian R2, watch the rest of our conversation, and even book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com slash richroll. This episode is brought to you by AG1. I got a newsflash for you guys. The mornings are getting pretty dark again. And if you follow me on Instagram, then you know that I'm up every day in the gym long before the light. And October is really the time of year when it gets honest, because cold and dark tend to degrade motivation. And in my experience, you need a plan. You need a strategy. You need tactics to combat this, to keep you on track with your health and your fitness goals. AG1, for me, is one of those tactics. It's one I've been deploying for the better part of a decade, because it's easy, it's simple, and it works. One scoop in cold water, first thing before the day starts making demands on you. It's basically a daily health drink with a broad blend of high-quality nutrients, a supportive step and a balanced routine that helps fill common nutrient gaps and support steady energy production and a healthy immune system. AG1's efficacy has been established across four separate gold standard clinical trials. Combined with a proper diet, AG1 NextGen was clinically shown to meet 94% of nutrient needs. And so, in an industry where most brands don't invest in real research, I would say that that is very meaningful. For a limited time, visit drinkag1.com slash richroll and get a free immune support bundle with your first subscription of AG1 Next Gen. Near the end of the book, you share this story about taking on a 14-day challenge of- Oh my God, hey. Which kind of is laudable, but also gives you the opportunity to say, hey, I'm a human being too. Like this was really, this was like the hardest thing I've ever done. And you see, and being a people person already, you would think that would come more naturally. It was fine, it was fine. You should tell them what it was, what I was doing. Well, you read some self-help book that encouraged you to do this, and you're like, all right, I'm gonna do this, like I'm gonna take this on. I'm gonna be kind to everybody. All day for 14 days, be nice. Now, you're gonna think bad thoughts, but don't say them. Everything out of your mouth is positive, positive, positive, positive. Hey, how you doing? That's good. Oh, I see you just lost your arm. How's that going? You look great one-armed. I mean, everything is positive. No negative out of your mouth. And I started it in Chicago. Right off the bat, walking down. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. I pretty much do all the time anyway. I got in the car and the driver's there taking me to Wisconsin. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. Oh, what a beautiful day pouring down rain. Oh, da, da, da. Oh, this is great. Everything. Hey, how you doing? Oh, it's good. Oh, I don't like you. I never have liked you. I'm signing books. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry it felt like that, but hey, I really appreciate your coming. I mean, just take everything and positive, positive. No negative. Man, I got home. I got home to Texas in 14 days. Oh my God. I was exhausted. Exhausted just from being nice. But what is the impact? Did that have a lasting impact on you or did you immediately go back to like, I can't wait to be mean to somebody? No, I wasn't thinking about being mean, but you know, you're just automatically gonna say, you know, oh man, what a lousy, this is no good. I mean, you go right back in. I'm not a mean person, but I will. You're a human being. Exactly. And it's hard to be in a human body. But here's the thing, Rich, you gotta think about it. You know, you gotta think about it. Now things just roll off, just come out of my mouth. My wife, who's always with me, I'll get a tap on the leg under her table and I'm going, oh, oh boy. Yeah, well, your superpower is your Achilles heel when it comes to your mouth, for sure, right? You're digging holes, you know, all the time for yourself. But that's also part of the appeal, I think. Like, no one knows what you're gonna say, but they know they're gonna get you. And I think that that is also illustrative of this theme that recurs in the book around like, authenticity. Like, there is Terry, the performer, and you know, you talk about like, these multiple identities. You've got Roy, who's kind of like the dark, angry guy. You know about Roy? I know about Roy. Yeah, Roy, everybody's got a Roy. I mean, only from the book, not in personal experience, but maybe he'll come out today, I don't know. No, no, no, Roy, I parked, Roy's outside in the car. No, no, no Roy. Okay, and this tension between like, okay, when you're performing and there's this more like, kind of good old boy Terry version of yourself, like, part of that's authentic to who you are and part of it is like, the volume's turned up on that for. Showtime. For showtime and being the performer. Right. Who is the real Terry, you know, at the base beneath all of these, this multiplicity of personalities? Well, I. And how comfortable are you in that Terry's skin these days? Boy, that's a good question. My wife knows the real Terry, because she's with me 24-7. And I'm just like everybody, I'm like anybody else. I love, I love to laugh, I have a big personality. I see the bright side of everything, I truly do. I love people, I'm interested in people, I'm interested in what they say. And I know when I'm on stage, it's time to perform. You can't tell me that Mickey Rooney or Bob Hope or Jerry Lewis or any of those great comedians, you can't tell me that when they went off stage, you know, it was, they didn't just go back and keep cracking jokes all the way till they go to bed. So I don't think I'm any different than that. But I'm pretty much what you see on television, that's how I approach. I get up in the mornings and I go down to the barn and I'm loving on everybody. I'm cracking jokes with everybody. You know, I'm trying to make people laugh and make them have a good day. I enjoy, that is my persona. That's what I like to do. And when I, and then when I, and then when I get hurt, I'm hurt, I'm genuinely hurt. And then my wife will tell me, it's okay to say no, you don't have to do, it's okay to say no. And I have a hard time saying no. And because I don't say no, I get myself into situations where, you know, it bites me in the butt. But I'm pretty much that guy. I'm pretty much a jovial guy all the time. That's just the way I live my life. If depression hits me and Roy shows up, that's an ugly moment. And that's when I get quiet. And that's when being married to a great woman who knows you inside and out, that's when she pulls me out of it. And that's huge. But if she was sitting right there talking right now, she would tell you, I'm pretty much on a high all the time. But I'm a smart enough guy to know that I love this and I love that and I want to do this and I want to do that. And I can create this over here and I can create that, but I can't really make it happen. So I hire the right people. So I guess you'd call me the visionary guy. The horse business, it's all my vision. But my wife, my trainer, they make it happen, not me. Not me. But I know that. I know that about me. And I know I make decisions just like that. Quickly. Yes. Decisively. And then go. Then tomorrow morning I'll wake up and go, damn. What'd I get myself into? And she'll tell me, she'll say, thank God for her because she saved us a lot of money because she'll say, honey, I know you want to do it. Let's just sleep on it. Yeah. Let's just sleep. And the next day I'm like, I don't want to do it. She's right. She's right. Yeah. If I weren't married to her. You've made a few bad business deals in your day. Yes. You know? Yeah. You've got some big successes now. I think that you are a deeply sensitive person beneath the balderdash and the kind of like large public personality. Like I feel like you're somebody who wasn't wired to really compartmentalize the booing and all of these kind of like obstacles that you had to overcome and the public's perception of you. It feels like in reading your book, like you were taking it harder than maybe somebody else would have in your shoes. Do you think that that's fair? And you did your best to like, you know, carry on and push it down. I had to find a way. This stuff doesn't go away. It hurts me. It hurts me. I'm not gonna lie to you. Being booed hurt. Being called dumb. I mean, it kept you from going back to Pittsburgh for a very long time. A long time. I just, I didn't go to Mr. Rooney's funeral because I didn't want to be around Chuck Nolan everybody. And that just was wrong of me. Just so immature. But that's, you know, that's me. Not proud of it. There's a lot of things I've done I'm not proud of. But you're spot on. I'm just, unfortunately, at 78, I still get my feelings hurt. I still long for people to love me. I still. Yeah, you got that gene, right? I can't. When you were playing though, were you conscious of having this motivation of needing and wanting to be like? Like, was your external, was your motivation externalized based upon perception? Or were you internally motivated by like, just I want to be the best football player that I can be? Right, no, I wanted to be the, that was all I thought about. I told, I've had people say, what was he like in the huddle? Well, he would change plays in the huddle. He'd call a play and change a play. Well, yeah, that's because I'm calling the plays. And while I'm calling the play, sometimes, oh no, I'm not going to run that. Here, let's run this. Because I had nobody, nobody called my plays. I called those plays. Those were my plays. Of all the things, of all the things I have to do in my life, one of the things I'm so proud of is that Peyton Manning didn't call his plays and Tom Brady didn't call his plays and nobody else called their plays. You know, I called my own plays. Well, and my buddy, my brother, how he says, well, you only had four. I said, yeah, okay, I got four. You going to the right or to the left? But at least you were calling them. Exactly, you're right. I wanted to be the best ever. No, that's not true. I wanted to be the best that day. I wanted to be successful that day. That's all I thought about was winning. I could not separate winning from everyday life. Super Bowl's over, horribly depressed, terribly depressed for weeks. And because I couldn't separate it, I couldn't say Super Bowl's over, going home to the farm, going to fish, love my dogs, family, plow, cut hay, love all my animals, show horses, cattle, whatever it is I'm going to do. It was right into next year. God, we've got to win again next year. Got to play Cleveland again next year. Got to play Cincinnati, Houston. Got to play the Raiders. God, and I just couldn't shut it off. And I was always looking for a way to shut it off. I was always looking. When I had a chance to do a television show with Mel Tillis and it had been picked up by NBC, I would have retired at eight years in the league. That was pretty cool because we had won four Super Bowls. And I liked that, but it got me away from football. And it didn't happen, I had to keep playing. It probably shouldn't have played. It really tortured me. But the thing I loved to do was the thing that was driving me crazy. You ever had that? Sure, it's almost rigged that way. It's a disease. It's incurable. First of all, do you feel like you fulfilled that promise to yourself to be the best player that you could be? Or is there something that you didn't leave on the field that haunts you? I don't, to answer your question, no. I don't think I was the best player I could be because I played too much in fear instead of being free. Talk more about that. Well, I was afraid early in my career if I played poorly, I was gonna be benched. And early in my career, I was benched. And then it probably wasn't until the end of my career, my last, I would say four or five years, where I had control of the situation and I wasn't worried about being benched. But for so many years there, we won a Super Bowl, Super Bowl IX. Man, I'm gonna be honest with you. I was benched twice that year. I didn't even start the whole year. I lost my job in training camp to Joe Gillum. He lost it back to me. I lost it to Terry Hanratty. Terry lost it back to me. I lost it to Terry Hanratty. I mean, man, that's no way to play. Yeah, that's like a footnote in history, but that was a big deal that kind of gets forgotten about. Yeah, and you know why? Let me tell you something. You don't want to talk about it and you don't want to bring it up, me, not you, because people say, whack, man, you want all those Super Bowl titles, but that's bullshit what you're saying. And it's not. It's not. It's not. And because it's coming out, you know, it's like, ah, it's trying to sell books. This book's not going to sell. I know this book's not going to sell. None of my books, I mean, none of them sell. Why would this one sell? I don't think it's going to sell. I'm going to bust my ass to see that it sells. But if they get their money back, you know, that's fine. But I'm not looking for this book to sell at all. I did the book. I did this book for me. I didn't do it for money because I'm not making any money on it, you know. I do Branson. I sing in Branson. I sing in Branson for fun. And I enjoy it. And it lets me showcase. I love it when people say, oh my God, I didn't know he could sing that good. And I'm like, that's what I want to hear. No money. You don't do, everything is not for money, you know. It just feels good. It makes me feel good. And I think it, you know, maybe it separates me a little bit from everybody else, which I like. Meaning that you. I can do other things. do these other things just because it lights you up and you're not constrained because you're making so much money on the broadcasting stuff. Yeah, that pays away for all these other things that you can do with your life. I mean, you wake up every day and you're going, boy, I've overcome so much in my life and man, I'm fired up and people can't wait to hear what I gotta say and I'm gonna write a book or do a podcast. You do that every day, you feel like it. I mean, you got the last word here. Well, I think I have a pretty good gig. I got you to come here today. Well, yeah, you got a good gig. I get to spend the afternoon with you. I drove in the traffic to come out here and see you. You came to me, brother. Yeah, you asked me to come to you. Back to the Admiral and back to the day when you got to call your plays, like a quarterback has to lead a team. You have to demonstrate leadership abilities in that role, especially if you're calling plays. You have to have your guys bought into your vision of what to do in the moment. You're making these snap decisions. So you are, by every definition, a leader. You have to be a leader, especially to take your team to the Super Bowl, et cetera. Yeah, well, what's your definition of seeing? I wanna understand your definition of leadership and what you've learned about leadership roles and what you wanna say about leadership broadly because I think we're in a moment in which we could use a little bit of sound leadership. Yeah, sound moral leadership. Yes, yes, I agree. Leadership to me is, and I've looked it up. I looked up the word leadership to get the definition. And it's so many, so many descriptions of leadership. Mine is very simple. I'm gonna love you to greatness. I'm not gonna, my way of being your friend is I'm gonna bust my ass for you today in this interview. All right, I'm gonna do my best. I'm feeling it. Yeah, that's what I wanna do. I want you to enjoy this and I want all your viewers to enjoy it in the best ever and I wanna make it easy. And that's me giving to you. My leadership was the same way. I'm not a hostile screamer. I don't have time to scream at you. If you disappoint me, Rich, I'm not gonna say anything. It's gonna eat at me until finally, if I can't say something to you because of my relationship, I'll have my wife talk to you and I'll tell her, golly, it really hurt me. And I've even said, look, when I die, will you say this and say that? I'm all about moral support. I'm all about positive. I hate negative. I don't like screaming. I'm not gonna scream. I'm not gonna yell. I'm not gonna berate you in front of people. I had to stand up in front of the team one day and stand in my chair so my coach could chew my ass out in front of the team. How about that? That's gonna make me fight hard, isn't it? I led like a lot of people do. I led by example and I led with love and kindness. And I was always smart enough to involve people in decision-making. And if you involve people in decision-making, then that lets them know that, hey, he respects my opinion. So that's what I liked and that's what I give. I don't want you to disappoint me, all right? Because I like you and I don't want you to, look, I don't want to disappoint you. I have fired my uncle after 19 years. 19 years and I had to fire him. I wanted to fire him 10 years ago. I fired a manager of mine after 18 years and I should have fired him earlier, but I didn't. I stayed on, I stayed on until he finally ate at me so bad it was a cancer and I had to get it off my chest. I fired a lady that ran my business after 15 years. Same thing, it ate at me. Now I'm the one that can't sleep. Yeah, I mean, that's the disease too. You gotta figure out how to have direct, healthy confrontation with people. Okay, do it, I don't want to hurt you. It's the people-pleasing that gets in the way. I know, it sucks. I'm telling you, it is, it does, it does. It's a terrible disease being a people-pleaser. Is it true that you negotiate your own deals, you don't have an agent? No, yeah, I do and I don't have an agent, right. And that's because? I just felt like, well, once again, I trusted people and they're gonna give me what's fair market, what my value is. And every contract I ever negotiated seemed, I was happy with, I wasn't upset. I mean, you say, like, know your value. This is like a mantra, like, know your value, I know my value, so you can enter into a negotiation. And as long as you really know your value and you're willing to like draw the line on that, you're gonna get the deal. But knowing your value in these other business arrangements with relatives, et cetera, like maybe you weren't, maybe you weren't like honoring your own value in those dynamics, right? It is, look, I got nine dogs. You know what I tell my dogs? You know what I tell my dogs? No, I don't. When they fuss and fight over a bone, which there are nine bones out there, and I tell them, be nice. I tell my dogs, be nice, be nice. Tell them, be nice. And I live by that, be nice. And be nice people, we do get pushed around. We do get pushed around and taken advantage of. And when I, if I ever am or have been a real asshole, it eats me alive. It doesn't bother them, eats me up. I mean, knowing your value, yeah, what I found out when I asked the Steelers, I was MVP in the league and we'd won our last two Super Bowls and I was VP in both of those games. And I met with the Rooney family and I told them I want 500, I'd like to make $500,000, okay? You know what they told me? To my face, my owner. You're not worth $500,000 to the Steelers. And what do you do with that? Well, what am I worth? 300. Okay. Sounds good to me. I think there's sort of a Jedi mind trick here or maybe a lesson in how to live a happy, meaningful life in that you might have taken a hit and not made what you thought you were worth or wanted to make, but this sort of moving forward with kindness and being a people person has benefited your life probably beyond what you would have imagined when you were a young person. Like I think it pays, it gets paid forward later in other ways because people want to work with you, they want to be around you. All of this sort of stuff. So maybe you're taking a little bit less salary earlier, but you're making it up later. You built good faith with the community of people that you want to be around. Look, I know. I would long for the day and that, well, that day's never gonna happen. Where? Where? I'm gonna say to you, hey, Rich, I won't, I'll come back on your show, but I know you paid your last guest $10 million. I've never paid a guest. Rich, just don't. For the record, just so the audience doesn't get confused, I don't want anyone thinking I've ever paid anybody, but go ahead. I didn't know you were so sensitive. It's okay. Trust me. Why do you think I want to talk about people pleasing? Like this, I'm having a therapy session with you. Like I need to know you're serious. All right, let me change that. So I've got, I'll go somewhere else. I know that you signed the last guy to do this commercial, the same one, you gave him $10 million, all right? I'd like to be able to say, I want the same $10 million. And they say, we're not gonna pay you 10 million. They go get somebody else. Knowing I could get eight. Knowing I could get eight. Do I want to walk away from a sure eight? Because that's eight I'm never gonna make up, right? And so I'll say, I'll take the eight. But I would like to know, and it's not gonna happen, that there was a time in my life when I said, I'm not gonna do that. I did turn down one commercial for $1.9 million. This is the- Because it didn't represent my values. The erectile dysfunction situation or something? Right, yeah. You let Jimmy take that one? No, that's a different one. That was another commercial. That was $650,000 that I was offered. And I said, I can't do that, but I got somebody that will. And they said, who? I said, Jimmy Johnson. And I said, you don't go anywhere. I'll call Jimmy right now after they told me you think he'll do it. And I called Jimmy and I said, I got you $650,000 right now. Call this guy, here's his number. And I said, now that's just right now. That doesn't mean that's what you're gonna get. You might get more. It's up to you. And Jimmy, he jumped all over it. But I just felt I would have a hard time with that. Yeah, I bridged too far for you. Oh, that's Terry Bradshaw. You know, when I'm home at night, oh no, no, no, no. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. 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Online payments, inventory, shipping, fulfillment, all handled in one place instead of like duct taped across four different tools. Your customers get something seamless and you get your evenings back. And the analytics tell you the truth about your business. What's selling, where buyers come from, what to make more of. That's the difference between a hobby that costs you money and something that actually sustains itself. So if you make something people want, the only thing standing between you and selling it is the storefront. And that's a solved problem now. Head to squarespace.com slash richroll for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Your book opens with some of the craziest shit ever. I wanna read, I wanna read, I copy and pasted it here because I wanna read it. So this is very early in the book. And this is you speaking. One afternoon, I remember this so well, when I was about seven years old, I was throwing my torn up old Sears and Roebuck football, one that my dad bought on layaway, against the side of our garage. Then I go running after it as it bounced away crazily. Suddenly I realized a man was standing behind me. That was strange. I hadn't seen him coming. He just sort of appeared. He was a compact stocky man. There was a small gap between his front teeth. He was wearing glasses, a fedora and a green windbreaker with coach on the front. "'Young Terry,' he said in a gravelly voice as if it was coming from heaven, "'I'm here to make you an offer. "'How would you like to grow up "'to become the number one draft choice "'in the National Football League, "'play professional football for 14 seasons, "'become the league's most valuable player, "'win three Super Bowls "'and be elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame? "'Then you would have a career in television "'during which you would win six Grammys, "'get elected to the Sports Broadcasting Hall of Fame, "'make several movies, "'have a singing career with a hit record, "'become a popular speaker, "'write bestselling books, "'build a few ranches and raise champion quarter horses "'and eventually produce an award-winning bourbon.' "'I didn't know what to say. "'Right then, my biggest dream "'was making the seventh grade football team. "'Wow,' I finally responded suspiciously. "'What do I have to do?' to make all of that come true. This man hesitated, then took a deep breath and finally said, you have to work with Howie Long. I knew there had to be some kind of catch. Oh, I hesitated, then finally asked, for how long? He closed his eyes and admitted, a long time, young Terry, decades. I gave it some thought. Then I said forcefully, make it four Super Bowls. I know that story might sound impossible, but it is as good an explanation as anything else for the incredible things that have happened in my life. Welcome to my book. I'm the guy who plays Terry Bradshaw on TV. So did this happen? Yeah. Is this a dream, a fever dream? Is this a fantasy? You ever had something like that happen in your life? Yeah, but not that specific or or dramatic. Yeah, the whole thing was, I played this game hundreds of times where I was in Iowa, throwing the football up against the ceiling in my bedroom, off of the nightlight on the street so I could see and catch it. And I always played games. And I always was great at everything that I did. And the coach, the coach part was basically my opportunity because I always wanted to meet a coach. I never had met a coach, a football coach. And it was like, wow, here's the choice I've get to make. The Howie thing was thrown in because little creative license. But you're saying that's my buddy. So yeah, it's a dream. You got a dream. It's a dream I'm having. And it was a recurring dream. I asked my wife, Tammy, honey, you ever dreamed about your falling and use a call? Oh, you ever had that dream where you're falling? Yeah. Yeah. I had this dream so many times. A recurring dream. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I picked up you ever pick up on a dream? Where does that come from? How does that happen? Is that strange to you that you pick up on a dream? Oh, you left it. Okay, I'll catch you tomorrow night when I go to sleep. It's crazy stuff. So what do you make of this? I know you're a man of faith. How do you square this recurring dream with the reality that became your life? Well, before I got married, I didn't have anybody to share this with. Okay? I just had myself. I didn't share it with my brothers or my parents or anybody else. But when I got married, I went, my wife and I are so close that we talk about stuff like this. And when she'll say, boy, I had the craziest dream last night. Dadadadadada. You're kidding me. Well, I did this. And we'll try to figure out where these dreams are going and where they're coming from. Her son had passed away and he's talking to her and signs a, all of a sudden, a butterfly. She's in the kitchen. All of a sudden, a butterfly flew by her window. You know, it's like Cody had just come to say, hi, mom, you know, and I mean, that stuff is, I mean, that gives me chill bumps. You know, I think about stuff like that. So I believe, you know, as a, I'm a Christian, so I can, I'm not ashamed to say Christian. You say man of faith, that's fine. You don't want to, I get it. But I, you know, in the world we live in, we, we Christians, people of faith, as you say, I'm, I'm a firm believer that, that as a Christian, I, my whole, the Holy Spirit lives in me and things happen in my life for a reason. And, and thoughts come to my head, which are beyond explanation. And my wife, and again, I said, babe, I'm having this and we'll talk about it. So I have someone now I can talk about it. So that, so I just believe that I'm living in, I'm living this short life and I'm enjoying it. And the Bible says to be still and listen. And if we ever, if we ever in this world, we'll take time to stop in our daily activities and just give some pause and just reflect, just sit there quietly. It's amazing. It's amazing that things that'll come in your head. It's amazing. You ought to try that sometime. And I, I enjoy that. It's a, it's a powerful feeling. And so the coach thing was just, this is where I'm headed. This is where I'm going. I'm going to have that guy one of these days, and I'm going to have the big guy, you know, my best friend at Fox, Howie Long. I'm going to have that big guy there one of these days. You know, that's kind of my shot at, shot at him. All of this is going to come true. I never, listen, Rich, I never as a child thought I wasn't going to be great. I used to sit in class and say to myself, say to myself, looking out a window and say to myself, God, one of these days, I'm going to be great. Where does that come from? I have no idea. Perhaps that's God telling me you're going to be great. I'm going to use you. It wasn't your parents raising you to believe that about yourself necessarily. No, no, no, no, not at all. You know, what's crazy about this? Are you getting nervous? In addition to the fact that, first of all, that was beautiful. Thank you. Like I, I loved how you explained that. In addition to just the, the general craziness of the story. You found it crazy. Now you understand it. Well here, it kind of, it's thematically consistent. Bear with me. Last week when I was in, I told you I was in New York. I had the opportunity to do a podcast with Colin Kaepernick. And he's got this book coming out. And in his book, he tells a similar story about when he was in, I think he was in fourth grade. And the, the class was doing like a time capsule, like write, write, write a thing to your future self and we'll uncover this later. And he wrote like, I am going to be like, he said, I'm going to be this height. I'm going to be this weight. I'm going to be a football quarterback. And I'm going to play for the, I'm going to, I'm going to play for the 49ers. Like it was, it was, it was wild, like a full premonition, but the same mindset, like this is where I'm headed, a conviction in his own potential greatness. That's amazing. In a very similar way. And these books are like coming out around the same time. Wow. Quarterbacks talking about their early childhood premonitions of greatness with an insane degree of specificity. There's kind of a common denominator here, you know. Which kind of adds a little bit more pixie dust on the mystical nature of this, the fact that both of you guys are talking about this. And he became great for another reason too, other than just football, which he was amazing at. He became great when he stood up for his values. Which I admire. Are you at liberty to talk about that at all or share your opinions on that? Do you feel constrained by the NFL? Well, you could, you could, I can answer your question real simple. You do what you want to on that sideline. If you don't want to stand for the national anthem, that's your business. That's not my business. I'm standing because I choose to, to honor our flag and our anthem. If you don't want, do what you want to do. Do what makes you comfortable. You're, you know, you're your own man, your own woman. You do what you, you know, I'm not one that believes in, I'm not going to judge you. That's not my job. My job in this life is not to judge you, Rich. I'm not going to judge you. I'm not, if you're bad and mean and hateful to me, I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to do it. If you don't want to stand for the national anthem, I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to say you should stand up. I'm not going to, I'm not going to voice it. I'm standing. I'm standing. I'm going to be nice to my parents. I'm going to yes and no. Yes, sir. No, ma'am. I'm going to do all of that. I'm going to be nice. I'm going to say thank you. When people do things nice to me, I'm going to do all, I'm going to be nice to women. If you're not nice to women, if you, and if you put your hands on a woman and you hurt a woman, you beat her up, as far as I'm concerned, you'll never play another down in the National Football League. That's a no-no in my book. Don't you ever do that, all right? I will judge you. I will judge you. I do have an opinion about that. I have a lot of opinions, but I'm not going to judge it. Just, and if you ask me, well, would you, I just told you my answer. Colin can do what Colin feels comfortable doing, and I respect him for it because it's his decision. It's not my decision. Now, if you're out there and you're listening to this podcast and you go, Bracho, you ought to, you know what? Fine. You judge me. You want to judge, go ahead and judge me. I don't care. That's, I judge you accordingly. You're nice to me. Me and you are friends. You're not nice to them, and they'll come tell me what a jerk you are, and I'm going to say, no, he's a nice guy. He was nice to me. So, I'm going to, it's me and you. We're one-on-one here, and that's our relationship, and that's the way it's going to be, and I'm not judging. Based on what other people say, opinions or whatever, that is not going to affect me whatsoever. So, I think I saw in some interview with you that you did say something along the line, I don't want to put words in your mouth, something along the lines of like, you know, it's a patriotic act to speak freely about your opinion on, you know, the state of the American project. Looking back now, like 10 years later, and the way that, you know, he was kind of treated by the owners in the NFL, et cetera, and the uproar that that caused, like, you know, I just feel like this is something that history won't smile upon favorably, and I think that- Listen, listen. Yeah, go ahead. You can- I don't want to get into a political discussion. No, no, no, no, no. Look, your taste buds change every 10 years. Uh-huh. Your opinion about things, you either don't have one, but you do. Everybody has an opinion. I choose today, as I'm sitting here talking to you, let him do what he wants to do. That's none of my concern, none of my business. Do I feel it's unpatriotic not to stand for- Yeah, but that's me. I'm standing. I just told you. I'm standing. I'm singing it, too. I'm putting my hand over my heart, and I'm going to be still. I'm not going to rock back and forth. Colin can do what Colin wants to do. I've already explained myself on that. You look at- You look at people- People have to understand when you're in a place- When you're in a position of power, or if you have a voice in something, you better be careful how you say it, because you are going to have- You are going to have an impact on people's lives. It's going to happen. It can- You can talk about President Trump. You can talk about President Bush, Obama. You can talk about anybody in a position of power or opinions, have opinions. You're going to have an impression. I'm a firm believer in faith. I'm a firm believer in high morals. I'm a firm believer in being kind and gentle with women, all right? I'm a firm believer, and my relationship is with you. It's me and you, and it's nobody else. I don't care about anybody else. And they'll say, well, so-and-so does. Okay, he's nice to me. Well, so-and-so, gee, but- Nice to me? You got to be kidding. Nice to me? That's where my judgment will come in. But there's so many things in this world that's happening in America right now that I'm just like, oh my God, are you kidding me? Can we not get along? The left and the right, and the left's got a better idea, and the right, they know it's a good idea, but they're not going to go along with it because that's not the party. And then the right's got something, but the left's not going to admit that's a good idea because they might stay in power, people to vote for. It's crazy what's going on. It's a hot mess. It's crazy, and nobody has the balls to stand up for what's right. What is right for people? People, human beings out there. And I just, and the morals, oh, I just, God. Yeah, it's crazy. It's not only crazy, it's getting crazier. Nuts. There's all these algorithmically driven, incentive-based aspects to how we interface with information and entertainment that ultimately are driving us away from each other in a really unhealthy way. Then I think we should all be deeply concerned about that. I believe in America and this American project. I remain optimistic. But we have an illness right now that we have to figure out how to cure, and it's a challenge. And this is not a partisan thing. It's just like, we're in this together. I can't believe that we live in a world where we have a leader that insults people. God, I have a hard time with that. Insults women. God, I have a hard time with that. And I'm so afraid to say anything. He's giving other people permission to behave the same. Same way. Like there's a trickle-down impact to being in a position of leadership and demonstrating that lack of character that denigrates the quality of our character as a community. It makes me shake my head. And I'm in a position, as a matter of fact, I've never said any of this before. Because you know why? Because if you pick a side, you lose the other side. There are 350 million Americans, and if you split them down the middle, that's 175 million, right? I don't want to lose 175 million. Sure, of course not. Of course not. But you're somebody like, listen, in reading your book. And everything I know about you like integrity is really important Oh huge and so, you know it doesn't have to be a political or a partisan issue to just speak about why you think integrity and Having like an ethical Center is I don't know important character attribute. Like why do we even have to like sell this? Why are we talking about it? I don't know it ought to be ingrained in a given in the American culture that you treat people with respect Respect. Oh, you can dish disagree all you want to but be show with respect and we've lost that and We all know when we do business with certain people that we're gonna walk away going galley, you know I'm not ever doing business with that person again. I used to sell cars. Mm-hmm And I use car that's how you got your branch, right? Cuz you weren't like what was your salary when you were in those early days? $25,000. Yeah, so you you had a hustle in offseason I went back after my rookie year and took one class to graduate. I was so mad I didn't graduate with my class and I went to my Dean and said you've been sending me all over the State and neighboring states to recruit students, so I had to reduce my load My class load. I needed one more class to graduate with my class and He said boy Terry that's out of my control. I mean, I'd like to I'd like to basically I'm asking and giving credit Give me I don't I don't want to give me a C. Just give me something Yeah, and he says you're gonna have to go talk to dr. Taylor president and and talk to him about that So I did so I went to dr. Taylor's office and I went in And he's a huge fan of mine, I'm playing for Pittsburgh bringing a lot of notoriety to school I'm thinking boy. This is gonna be great. I got dr. Taylor. I'm gonna get that three-hour credit I mean, you know, so I go and see dr. Taylor and he goes Boy, well, you've been grateful. I mean here, you know the story Yeah, this and that and I mean and I know where this is going and he says you You wouldn't want me to give you Credit for a class. You didn't take and that's not you and that felt bad. I felt bad trying to Get out of class, you know, try to get a free grade, but My ass is traveling around recruiting students They were using me There was no name image in like NIL Back then and so I had to go back I went to Pittsburgh for my rookie year and I had to go back to school when I got back And I went to we were quarter semester side to go in the spring and take one class To graduate so when I graduated I got even I didn't walk across the stage. I stayed home Selling used cars used cars trucks, you name it. Yeah, it was fun I've also heard you say that that people think of you as this alpha like this alpha male and Your response to that is like I don't think that I'm that alpha like I'm for the betterment of other people Yeah, I'm not is that but here's the thing Terry. There's a lot of young men who are in Positions where they're looking around they don't see a lot of opportunity. We're having this loneliness epidemic and And there's a certain despair that makes them vulnerable to less savory Influences out there about like what it means to be a man and I think you are an alpha in the healthiest sense like you're modeling a certain kind of masculinity as a spokesperson and the voice of This sport that is basically our national pastime right is, you know, kind of really just this important Cultural juggernaut, right? And so people look to you for guidance and leadership. We talked about leadership, you know, what is Healthy masculinity in your opinion. I think of alpha Am I alpha at my ranch? Yeah, I am Um, it's my rant it's our ranch If you mean him am I the top dog yes, I am I know that But but being a good alpha I I Delegate authority. I'll everybody do what they're qualified to do and Very seldom do I interfere? I may ask questions, but very seldom do I interfere? I like that I like for people to do what they're qualified to do without any interference and a little direction or if I are if they need An answer they'll come to me and I'll give them an answer We in the horse business we have mares that are running together There's always an alpha mare because she's the one that picks on everything and gets everything she wants So we have to take her out of the herd Put her over here with another alpha male female so they can fight one and fight one another and leave the leave all the innocent along so I don't I don't feel as as though as An alpha guy a leader of a leader of the pack Situationally speaking. Yeah, but for the most part I Pretty much Am not the guy that jumps out front I'm Look, I did that my whole life playing football I'm real comfortable listening to what now you may give a an order or something. We're gonna do and I may not agree with it. I'll say I don't you know, I'll say so I'm not gonna be stupid but At the same time. I'm not leading the pack either and you know what? Let me tell you something I don't want to lead the pack. I like I like sitting back, you know, I'm comfortable sitting back Now you get now you get to you get to throw the zingers in that's my job But then you're talking about the young people today. They're lost They're they're lost. They they they maybe Maybe they're confused because it's all about money. I gotta make money money money money money. I gotta make money money I gotta make more money And they do you ever hear the word? I gotta find my happiness gotta find my happiness happiness happen Now because it's all it's in this in this country, it's it's we gotta have money That money is equated with happiness or that is it Right, so or just as a Status-flex the only way to feel good about myself or to compare to my peers is if I you know, rise up the ranks And your self-esteem comes from your money and your position Take away all of that and you're basically a nobody You're struggling. You know, what about me? What about me? I'm in I'm Just struggling me. I'm I'm I'm a happy guy, you know Unless you've had you've been you you've endured these identity crises in your life. You had it when you yeah, so This is part of the hero's journey of you know, living a long life That's exactly you know, why because I've crossed I've traveled many a road and I've gotten to a lot of forks and I've had to make decisions and when I've gotten there and you said this earlier in an interview and you had a lot of Failures because you picked the wrong fork, you know, you went to the right when you should have gone to the left so I've got all of this travel and all of these miles on my body and all of these decisions and Thousands of millions of decisions I've made in my life and Good and bad and I got all that and here I'm sitting at this table 78 years of age with three girls and grandkids and a wife beautiful wife and I'm still you know still making decisions still trying to figure out how much longer I'm gonna be doing the Television still wondering will I still be able to give speeches still wondering? Can I promote this book still wondering? Will they come see me at Branson? I mean, it's mm-hmm, you know, it's still there Yeah You don't transcend it, but you have enough experience to know how to navigate it yeah, so with respect to the part of my question about the message to young people the younger right male or young people in general who Are confused about the world and you know, maybe not seeing opportunity for themselves Like what is it that you want them to understand about what you've learned along your path? First of all, you know, you got me rubbing my head over here rich. This is my job. I know but first of all You First of all, you got to you got to sit down and have a talk with yourself and ask yourself. What is it? You know, we're what is my gift? Everybody's got a gift. What's my gift? What is my purpose in this life? What is it that I love doing? All right now I Got it. I got to take a step. I got a leap of faith. I got to go after it and That doesn't mean look you think you think Sam Walmart Sam Walden Had that one little store and he said man if I had two stores, I could buy my groceries cheaper and I'm could sell twice as many groceries and I'd make a little bit more money and I could pass a little bit of a Savings on the customer and they'll like me and they'll just keep coming here and they won't go there Then he says Kali if I had ten stores Then I could do a radio commercial because then I'd have the support out there and I could spend my money for ten Oh, no, wait a minute. What if I have a hundred stores and what if I call them? Walmart there you whoa now now now I got a hundred stores and I'm buying all this produce and all these All these supplies that I'm gonna sell and I'm getting them even cheaper and I'm selling them out to a hundred stores And so I'm getting I'm getting in all these people and I can pass on the savings to them And I'm still making more money than I ever dreamed. What if I have a thousand and here we go But it started with one thought. What if I had two stores? All right. So what if I have? What if I'm sitting out there? I just graduated. Let's forget college because I don't think college is meant for everybody Certainly, let's say you're sitting out there and you gotta ask yourself, you know, am I good with my hands and my good sewing? Am I good playing a guitar? Am I am I am I good in the community? Would I be a good community servant? Would I be a good salesperson? Where can I get a job selling what if I got a good voice may I could do radio, you know? So, how do I get how do I get I don't like make a plan But you got to find out what it is you want to do What what you can't go to bed at night and not and not look forward to getting up the next day Because there's something exciting out there waiting for you and it's and don't put a dollar sign on it Put your heart sign on it and say, okay, this is gonna make me happy No, that's what that's what you want out of life when you get to the end of the day It's are you happy with yourself? Are you happy? You know, how do you feel? I mean, I mean to me that's a pretty simple thing to do. Yeah, I can honestly tell you I Love going my wife and I we love going to bed We'll go to bed at 5 30 afternoon get in bed and we'll go this is great Oh, man, this feels good and get all the dogs in bed We prop ourselves up and we put on a show we want to binge watch it or something And we just love it and we're both like, you know, what are we gonna do tomorrow? What's up, and we can't wait to get up to next day and we get off we get off in our journey and we and we Go together. Hey, let's go here. Let's go there. Let's go do this go do that and It's it's man. It's just you you gotta have a plan You you gotta sit down and have a but it has to be realistic You know, you have to you know your value You know, you know your talents All right, and and so so March on, you know Take the bull by the horn as they say or whatever, but you know You're not gonna start at the top no matter where you go. You're gonna start at the bottom Which is good. I've got this friend. Steven Pressfield is an author And he wrote this remarkable book called the war of art It's kind of about creativity and how to be a professional and overcome procrastination, etc But he has this great saying which is life is short, but it's also long Meaning you have to get up out of bed and get after it. No one owes you anything and There is a sense of urgency in in having a plan about your life and executing it While also understanding that life is long and you don't have to build your empire in a day It's about what can you do today? That's gonna move the ball forward to your point of the first store, you know He's not he's not he's not Executing on building his empire Sam Walton, you know before he you know builds that first store and it's working properly, right and I think people Get really caught up Comparing themselves to successful people and thinking that it happened rapidly and in your book It's just one of a zillion examples of showing like no it didn't like this is just Potholed and messy and you know, like all of it, right like this path to greatness that we imagined in other people because we're projecting our own Aspirations or jealousy or envy or Entitlement on you know people who are avatars like yourself who represent a certain Definition of what it means to be successful and it just doesn't work that way. Yeah, you look at me you see the end result Yeah You see you don't see and you also see a guy who's just like brimming with Enthusiasm and you're talking about how excited you are to go to bed at 530 and wake up the next day And what gets lost in in that as powerful and as motivating is that little speech is that you just gave is the fact that you also were Diagnosed with clinical depression and you mentioned that before and like your mental health journey, you know Isn't like I just went and automatically wake up out of bed and feel this way every single day. So talk a little bit about That part of your life journey this whole I would want everybody I will talk about that But I would I would want everybody to know you're not looking now you look at me now and you see what all I've accomplished and you go Wow, he's really blessed. I really worked. I worked really hard years upon years Day in and day out with a football in my hand to perfect throwing it Also with a microphone in your hand, let me tell these stories about you were a disaster when you started They exiled you to they literally exiled you to Siberia like Alaska to cover the Iditarod because they're like this guy can't do football Like I thought it was a compliment. They sent me up there. Yeah, so it's not it's not like you're very gifted at what you do and you certainly had a talent but you were getting in your own way and talking like you had a Lot that you needed to learn and you need like a dose of humility and to get right side But I did that you stayed in it. I'd went to know you wanted to quit Yeah, but I went to the Iditarod for CBS I thought that was they were that was like I've been chosen until I got there and realized I got here because nobody wanted this job We'll go interview all those dog mushers and so I went down there. Oh, hey, how you doing? You're from Sweden? Hey, what are you? I don't see where you're from. You're Norway. That's good, Russia Hey, how you doing? And I'm the interview and all these I get this guy from China It's I said, hey, how you doing? Duh-duh-duh and he looked at me So tell me tell me about your dogs, I mean you got what kind of shape are they Then I realized yeah, and he doesn't understand one thing. I'm saying so I went John Wayne And you go John Wayne And I went oh my god, it's priceless. It was great But yeah, I thought I was being rewarded but no no get him out of here. You're right, but it was Look It takes a long time to develop your skills. I was I didn't start in junior high I didn't just start in City League football I didn't start In high school, but one year when everybody to graduate I went to Louisiana Tech I sat on the bench two years behind Phil Robertson the Duck Dynasty guy. Mm-hmm. I mean crazy You were back up QB to the guy who ends up on Duck Dynasty, right? I was not one of those Great, great, great, great But even when you were you still like, okay, then you become like, okay. Well this guy's the number one college football quarterback in the nation first first pick in the NFL draft and then You have to shoulder the expectations of that and you're not living up to it So much so that Howard Cosell calls you like the number one flaw and like the NFL that was great Yeah, and I couldn't wait to meet him. You know, what was that conversation? Like it was terrible It was live on television Monday night football in Pittsburgh my rookie year and he walked out the number one flop in the NFL Terry Bradshaw You ever been you ever been so embarrassed or so in shock that you're two feet from someone you can't see him Yeah, your vision goes and that's what it was like I couldn't even see him I was Stunned that he said that um, you know, so the point is It doesn't matter how talented you are it doesn't matter how audacious your dreams are To live a human life means that you're gonna face obstacles These obstacles are opportunities for growth and developing resilience, etc And they're character building. It's not about avoiding them. It's about how you How you see yourself through them? Well, you asked me while ago about Depression and having a DD which was Finding out I had a Attention deficit disorder was like best news ever got because it explained it's also obvious. It's I Didn't know But it explained The problems I had with school So that's the fact that I got through I'm proud of But I had to read a book five times to get what you got out of it one time and Most a DD people we have to go over stuff because we're reading it and we don't even know we're reading it So and this this is that's this this results in you know people insulting your intelligence and calling you dumb over the years like you got a weather like a lot of test I Didn't even know what the AC take T. I went sitting there at college to take the ACT test And I'm I'm going through that and but I don't know what it's like now and even if they still take it But you put little zeros you color it in with your pencil And I'm like, oh my god this is You know, this is ridiculous and so I I Finished it and couldn't I've never been so happy to be through with something in my life and I made 15 Now that's almost moronic So Didn't know I couldn't go to LSU which was a blessing if I've got if I'd have made 16 I'd had to go to LSU because I signed with LSU. I didn't want to go to LSU. I felt pressured to go there Tried to take the SCT test to go to Louisiana Tech and I passed that you know what I made on it You want to know I'll tell you exactly what I made 1046 That's pretty good. That's average. Yeah, it's like it's not it's not like bad. Yeah bad. Not great Not yeah average. Well, I'm average, you know, I'm an average guy but about certain things I'm really smart and about other things do it. Yeah, just like everyone else. Exactly. So anyway, then Then I started having these horrible panic attacks and where did that come from? It didn't have two big games I'd be down forever and just got headaches and And didn't know what it was get on a plane and then have another panic attack Got off a plane they got me off a plane in Miami carried me off In a Put me in an ambulance and this when you were still playing No, I've just gotten out. That's through playing and They put me In an ambulance took me to emergency and the people I was there to speak to came with me in the ambulance and they got there and I was soaking wet and They're telling me and they're saying he's having a panic attack so well How long these things last and Can we get him dressed? They wanted me to give the speech hmm and man, I'm I'm think I'm having a heart attack so finally they quiet me down and These people Put me in the car that followed the ambulance Took me to the Convention Center Dress me and I went up and gave a speech This is man. This is not that different than you get injured on the field and they take you in there Locker room and yeah, they're putting whatever they need to into you to get you back out there up Yeah, and then then after that after I gave the speech they took me back to the hospital So I get into the hospital and the doctor the doctor the doctor They admit me back to the hospital to run tests and the doctor comes in about I don't know How late at night it was and I'm scared to death and he says we're gonna have to we're gonna have to do Heart surgery, we're gonna open, you know, they said yeah. Well, I've done I've done no tests. How's this guy's God Operating. Are you kidding me? So and you're like 36 37 or probably yeah, somewhat search 738 So when this guy left and it it got around midnight one o'clock in the morning I Put my stuff on and then they don't do them to do I Don't out of the hospital. I used to sleep down the stairs and I walked and I found a store They had a phone and I called my attorney and I told him what had happened I told him, you know where I was and he ended up getting a plane Down there and picked me up and they flew me to Fort Worth To a hospital and they put me in there and went in and And and ran a thing up my thigh and shot Dye or whatever it is into my veins to see if I had block arteries or what? And and I was fine. It was nothing. I just had a misdiagnosed your anxiety and panic But I heard about that, huh? Yeah. Well, I snuck out of that hospital Yeah, I know that you ended up going like this is around the time when They're starting to become some awareness around CTE etc, right you go and see a whole bunch of like brain specialists. I did like do I have this? What does this mean? Right and that's really when you start to like Engage with mental health professionals around like what's actually going on with you and trying to write bottom of it Well, I credit my wife with this because I was having Kind of like dementia stuff, you know where you can't remember and you lose you're losing thought and and Didn't know what was going on And I was Forgetful just forgetful forgetful and It just got crazy actually crazy so she took me I went to yell and We did three days of brain testing where they did everything to my brain that you could possibly do and came out from that and the Doctor said no sign no Sign no wear and tear for dementia. No, what else? No all timers CTE you can't tell me to your dad so my brain was Was you know was fine. So and the explanation then for these memory lapses is I Don't I don't really have the answer for that. Yeah, I still have them But I'm old Yeah, that's aging but I'm just curious maybe yeah, I you know in the context of like being diagnosed with depression You know, there's there's some look there's some you know, like Whether mild or severe like there's some trauma and you're in your background. I think the psychological scars of you know the booing and and Expectations being placed on you and like all these kind of things that you weathered over time add up and Create like a kind of worldview or a sense of yourself Maybe that has some relationship to forgetting things or or whatnot but I think that there is and this is really another kind of core theme of the book like There's a cost that you've paid to have this life There's the physical cost that you've paid of, you know being in the gladiator ring for you know As many years as I were there is the emotional cost that you've paid by having to weather the criticism Etc that we've already talked about. There's also the the the like existential critis sort of cost of To your identity like okay now this thing ends your athletic career and you have to figure out who you are next, etc And you lose that Brotherhood that you thought you would always have which is something that you know Anybody who is in the military and has been you know Deployed to conflict zones like they experience some version of this like it is a sort of PTSD Yeah, especially if you're a SEAL. I mean notice the brotherhood with SEALs. Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty strong. I You know, I suppose Now back then What you're saying is probably a lot of truth to it, I mean I had I had more Concussions than I realized a concussion to me is I am totally out. That's a concussion But there are a lot of concussions that you go. Oh, you know That's a concussion. Then you just got wrong. It was just you got wrong But but They here's a good here's it here's a good thing about the depression and here's the thing I did I Say this to the men that are listening. Okay. Here's what I say to them a woman will more than likely go and Something's wrong. She's gonna go to the doctor a man's not going he's not going you got dragging But I went and I'm very proud of the fact that I sought help and It took Over a year With three different first was my preacher then was my marriage counselor a Psychologist and then it was a psychiatrist and the end result was Diagnosed with depression and And when you go in for these when you spend time with these people you go through your life Well, I've gone through my life three times It's exhausting You ever been to a psychiatrist? Oh, yeah. Hey, it's it's is it not exhausting. It's it was for me It's so tired of talking about myself. Oh and It came out and he said we're gonna put you on this drug and we'll see if this helps and I think I've switched Drugs once I thought I thought and it was fabulous fabulous because the the The big attacks have ceased. I Still get to I still get to I still get small versions I'm I thought I wasn't on The drugs anymore, but I've always been on them. I just didn't know it my wife's You take them every day. I went really she said give them to you Wait, oh, I didn't so I said, oh, I didn't know that but the key for me and being diagnosed with depression Number one and there's a lot. I want to say about this. Number one is that I'm proud of the fact I sought help. I Knew something was wrong. Okay, I knew something was wrong and I knew that when I had these attacks or when I had these spells these horrible spells I Knew how sickening they were. It made me sick so sick and I oh I couldn't handle it just deep dark and It was devastating and scary and I Had to get I had to get I had to get rid of that so being being over a year and in therapy and then three three actual years of Therapy of talking three years I did this a year a year before I got medicine and then three years of talking and And Becoming aware of depression and what triggered it in my life, you know, I know what triggers it Or I know what it will bring it on And then the key was my wife knows it All right, and also and I know and I know when it's coming on It's I know it's like watching the Sun go down. I Can sit there and as Sun goes down I'm watching it. It's fixing to get dark Same thing with this this disease and knowing as it goes. I can feel it coming on and knowing that You have tools to Make it less severe. Yes, I still get them They don't last as long anymore. I get and the signs are real obvious. I get real quiet real quiet Can you imagine I get real quiet I get? and I isolate and She knows it and She she'll come out and She'll notice it. She notices it notices it immediately and then she comes out and And it's kind of cute. She goes She'll say to me is Roy showing up Mm-hmm. You know, that's one phrase or she'll say are you is it is are you having? Your moments and I'll go yeah, and sometimes it's emotional and I'll say yeah, I'm really struggling right now And so she gets me she gets me out of that. Mm-hmm. I can't sit there She gets me up and gets me out of it What happens when you got a go on the air and Roy is done it Roy's running the show You just I can't control Roy the show must go on. Yeah, that's that's pretty much the way it is. I've I can honestly say Roy showed up one time and So it's actually comical. So I'm sitting there at the desk with The Fox desk and I got my head down And I Had these pills So I took this, you know took this pill And I drank some water and I'm sitting there and I'm I'm trying to focus, you know Because it's live television and I know I don't read anything It's all comes out of your head and I'm sitting there and I and I lock in to the table, I'm just How he goes hey, man Hey You okay? I don't say anything. Hey Are you okay? And this is what this is what came out of the are you? Okay, I turned to Howie and I go I Took the wrong pill Took a sleeping No We started laughing and then you were out of it I was good, but I was God I just I took I just I didn't know what was wrong with me. I was just That's pretty good And then in the movie of your life this scene has to take place funny Funny not funny, but funny, you know Depression isn't the only thing you've been diagnosed with you were diagnosed with cancer twice. Yeah, you survived that It's like what's next? Yeah, I mean, you know like You've you've gone through a lot man. So the depression I will say this I mean interrupt just right the depression was Was the worst I ever felt cancer I think stage three was as close as I got and that would have been with with the Merkel cell this yeah Which is just really rare. Yeah form skin cancer, which is the second one The first one was bladder bladder bladder cancer. Yeah, and that was Immunotherapy to deal with that. I still have to then you want so bad about that still have to go back and you know Once a year and sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's like a sliver under your skin at you and Even if like, okay, not stage four states. It doesn't matter Yeah, a cancer diagnosis is gonna confront you with your mortality, right? And right kind of think about right, you know death in a way that we don't when I was living our lives So what did what are those experiences teach you about? about about that Like your relationship with death and your own mortality. Here's the way I felt My my quiet thought was if I die, I'm going to heaven How painful am I how much pain am I gonna be in you know, I that was mm-hmm, you know And then Tammy was telling me she wouldn't let me talk like that. She stop it. Stop it We're not gonna talk like that, but you're gonna be fine. You're gonna hit fine, but I'm I'm the one that has the cancer You know, I'm just I got a thousand questions. I want to ask Window, can I tell you a funny thing about this cancer? so We're waiting on the bladder results to come back All right, and so she walks in to the den and I'm standing there and she goes honey. I Need for you to sit down Well the last time anybody asked me and last time a woman ever asked me to sit down she said we're good And the words out of that woman's mouth was I don't love it anymore I want your ass out of this house by 530 this Afternoon, so I told her I said, hey, I got news for you. I ain't sitting down You're not gonna get me there and she says no that she says You have bladder cancer something She was much more softer than that, but and I went what? Tim what is what is bladder cancer? What does it do? Okay, and then can we can we treat it? So that was that was the first Cancer I Enduring the treatment riches when I I went Man, I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm gonna make it I don't know if I'm gonna get out of this everybody said it's looking good. It's looking good It's looking good, it's looking good. I'm one of those guys don't tell me it's looking good when I know it's looking bad You know you you don't want to think like that But you do, you know, it's like I talk about Dying and I tried to explain people when you get my age It's something it pops up. How much longer do I have? I'm 70. How much longer I got If I got 70 my dad was 84, okay, what what I'd have six what that's six more years My mother died. She was 94 or do I have 16 more years? You know, I'm now I've had these cancers and then then we're Checking for spasms. I get these spasms in my neck from where I got hurt injured when I played So I get them and they they're painful as hell and that's a boy she said well while we're up there we will have them and Yale we do we'll do an MRI. So see if you've got a Disc, it's impinging. So we did the MRI and they found the tumor over here So if I hadn't been bitching about this So yeah by happenstance because of the spasm because of this injury you sustained so there you were able to get this So now I'm saying thank you Lord. Yeah, this is this is something that I Would have just you know, and he said you can't feel this knot and I went no no So then he put my finger on it right there and I went oh, is that what that? Tumor wow, that's wild What else you'll talk about rich, oh I got lots more buddy I'm not gonna hold you that much longer. And this is really my last question for you. Is it? You're still this competitive athlete. Who's who's just in in the game in the game of broadcasting living big doing the things that light you up and Publicly saying like they're gonna have to drag me out of the the booth like I'm gonna keep doing this What is it that you're still? striving for or chasing by Living that life when you don't have well I've never thought about that question Because that question has a lot of answers I I love quoting this from the movie tombstone when Val Kilmer doc doc holiday Billy Bob Thornton comes out of the bar after wider up when they're slapped him grabbing him by the ear and took him out and Then he's out there why it's talking to doc Val Kilmer doc Hollywood holiday and Baby, Bob Thornton comes running out with the shotgun and Kilmer smoking a cigarette Val Kilmer spokes there and he turns around me and and Billy Bob sees him and he freezes in his tracks realizing stock holiday and he stops and he goes while doc I Heard you was dead and Val Kilmer the great line. I Beg to differ. I'm just reaching my prime That's my approach My approach is Way too much to do way too many speeches to give way too many horse shows to show my My horses and breed the next great champion way too many beautiful grandkids to love and spoil Way too much time to barbecue with my three girls and their husbands I mean way too way too much time to be on television Entertaining people and making people laugh and way too much still so I don't I don't trap myself Not do say golly boy 78 I'm gonna be dying. You know, I'm dying. My wife says stop it right now Don't break so she keeps me she checks that with me, but I don't I Don't have an exit that good. I don't have an exit rich. I I don't I I'm not crawling off to stay a hundred and ten percent guy. You're living your life at you know, full speed and And it'll you know and God bless you, you know, I mean like what more do you want in life? Like you've got a beautiful family The book is the book is also this, you know, not for nothing You've been married a couple times, but this is a this is this is also it's a book about unconditional love and acceptance Oh, well God did not intend for man to be on this earth alone, so I gave us woman and I Struggled with With getting the right Woman and I had to after my third divorce So embarrassing so embarrassed and trying to figure out What the hell's wrong with me because the common denominator and all of that was me Three women but same me and and so I had to once again counseling to Break that chain. This is what I'm attracted to got to break that chain and and and you list the things you're looking for in a woman and What is love? What is true love being in love? What does that mean? in it and I didn't honestly think I was capable of it and The one thing in my life that's embarrassing is when people say Been married three times. You know what? I've been married three times For now and It was tough how do you handle that that I know how I Younger the young Terry looked at these Hollywood people that were married multiple times and I Like, oh man, you know, it doesn't set well with me, but I had to cut ties with things that Terry really liked. And there was nobody ever gonna, you know, it just meant I was gonna be by myself and so be it. And then I met Tammy and I fought her for 12 years. I just was not, I was not gonna get married. I was not gonna allow myself to think I was in love. I was not, because I did, I thought I'd blow this one too. And she was, she just kept, she just kept being wonderful. And I just kept running away, but coming back. And then all of a sudden I realized, wait a minute, the best friend, my best friend, we do everything together. We enjoy, you know, the horses, the fishing, the travel, the golf, and she's my golfing buddy. I only play golf with her. I show horses with her. We go through our horse program together. We make decisions together. We built, she built and designed our home. I mean, I finally realized she's my, you hear that, my best friend. We've, 22 years together, we've been apart one day. One day. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And so finally, I had a hard time getting married. Again, I had a hard time. So one night playing around in the living room in front of the fireplace, I knew I needed to get on my knee and ask her to marry me. So I told her, I'm gonna practice asking you to marry me, having fun with her. So she stood up and I got down on one knee. And I took her hand, and I took her hand. I couldn't even look at her. Tammy, woo, woo, woo, woo. It's like aversion therapy. Oh my God, I started laughing. So the best way for me to do, I know, Rich, I know. I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm sorry, man. You had to do a bunch of research to get to this place, that's all. On my heart, on my heart. And I passed her in the hallway. Saturday night, we passed in the hallway, and I put my hand up. I said, hey, we're getting married Tuesday. We're on our way to Hawaii the next day. I said, we're getting married Tuesday. We get to Hawaii Sunday. Monday, I'm cooking for the, we're getting married, so I started cooking. And she said to me, look, I don't know if you were teasing or kidding around, but today's Monday, and we don't have a marriage license. And it dawned on me, we gotta go to the courthouse, right? We gotta go get one. So we went, and we got it, and I didn't know it, but I was in such shock as I was walking down the hallway. She was standing behind me, filming me going in. I went in. We signed the paperwork. Went in the backyard, had some neighbors come over, so we'd have some witnesses. My preacher from Houston showed up. We got married, and the minute we got married, we're all crying, we're all emotional. And then you go, then you have this, why in the world did it take so long? Because it was great, and it's been great ever since. I'm happy for you, man. Yeah, I'm happy for me. Yeah, it's great. Selfishly speaking, I'm very happy for me. The book is called Looking for Terry. I think we, I'm looking right at him. I think we found a bit of him, at least, today. I love the book. This was great, man. This was super fun. So much fun. I'm hanging out with you. I appreciate it. Thank you. You just came with great energy, and just, you left it on the field, my friend. This was fantastic. Empty the bucket. Are you okay? You feel all right? Yeah, no, I'm fine. Good. You know what? My butt's hurting from sitting so long. All right, we'll get you up out of there. This was great. Cool. You're welcome here anytime. I hope so. Thanks so much. Best of luck with everything. Thank you. This was great. Appreciate you. Cheers. Before we continue with the show, I want to point you toward an award-winning podcast, I think a lot of you will get something out of. 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