Harlan Coben Turned His Books Into 12 Netflix Series | Better in Person

Key Takeaway

Treat creative work like a job, not a mood: choose a small daily slot, sit down, and produce before researching, organizing, or waiting for confidence. Harlan Coben’s rule is that ideas and anxiety are part of the process, but only the act of writing moves a project forward. Today, reserve 25 distraction-free minutes for your most important creative task and do the imperfect first draft before consuming advice or gathering more input.

Episode Overview

Harlan Coben discusses how he built a career from low-paid early paperbacks to bestselling novels and 12 Netflix series. He explains his disciplined approach to writing, why he uses fear as fuel rather than a stop sign, how he finds story material in ordinary observations, and why adaptations should serve their new medium rather than slavishly copy the source text.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Harlan Coben Turned His Books Into 12 Netflix Series | Better in Person from Freakonomics Radio. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

This episode of Better Person presents ChatGpt. Get ChatGpt involved in working on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGpt desktop app today. I always like this question. If you weren't a writer, what would you be? And one of my friends says: " US Senator." I'm like, "Oh, please." I would be the dude who would write a duvet cover." I don't have any other skills to offer in the market. If you write books for a living , even if they turn out to be very successful, which is unlikely, it's even less likely that you'll have enough leverage to turn your own books into movies and TV shows.

But Harlon Cobin did it. He produced 12 series on Netflix. His books have sold 90 million copies, and he seems to still be at the peak of his powers. You know, I've known you for a while now , and I really like you. I mean, I'm just saying that. Thank you. I like you very much. I appreciate it. Can everyone turn off the cameras for a moment? I mean , we're done. It feels very intimate here. Hmm, but, wow, a bit bookish. Hmm, I'm a little cocky.

And I'm being cheeky because I've read a lot of Harlon Cobin. Oho. Oho. It seems you've offended me. because, like all these characters, they are calm on the surface but very turbulent inside, where you think it's one thing but it turns out to be something else, where some fear, an unknown quantity lurks, and it keeps me in a state of deep, I won't say anxiety. I'm not sick. I'm just, like I said, on the edge. Yes. But I want to know how you feel about making people feel that way.

This is interesting. It's a different reaction than I usually have, you know, because in the end, usually the world comes back together. For me it is. And it may not be so, maybe it is not so, at the end of every book we say. Yes. And I may not have a happy ending. In fact, quite often I like devastating endings. I usually see my favorite endings with a shudder. Running away is one of my most destructive endings. Hmm, but the world seems to be coming back together.

And I think of it more as escapism. And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. way. So, I...I...I'm actually kind of glad about it. I really want these things to stick in your head. It sounds so corny, but I still want this to be the kind of book that you go to bed at 11:00 and say, "I'm just going to read for 10 minutes." The next thing you know, it's 4 in the morning, and you're a little bit daydreaming, and you're kind of happy. “And I called it an immersion novel.

That book you take on vacation but don't want to leave your hotel room because you have to know what happened. And as a reader, I like to have that feeling, and the thought that as a writer I can convey that feeling to someone makes me happy. And I hope that what makes books effective and what matters is that they are easy to move the mind. It's easy to move the pulse, but it has to move the heart. So I have to make you worry about these people so they can work.

I'm not interested in action movies or adventure movies . I'm not a big fan of violence or bloodshed. They are never in my books . Such scenes are always very internal, from the perspective of the person participating in the action sequence. What do you mean? In other words, it's what you think about. It's like I just punched you in the face. This is not his hand. This is what you're thinking about. Oh my God , this fist is flying at me. What should I do? "This is a [ __ ] pain." Something like this.

So I try to make any action scene internal. When you're filming, it should be the complete opposite . This is external. I'm not really interested in that. When we shoot these scenes, I'm not really involved. Has your writing style changed as you've been filming more and more? Do you think you're writing a little more cinematically now ? I'm actually thinking of something less cinematic, but definitely not less cinematic. Yes. In the sense that I just finished writing a book with Reese Witherspoon that just came out called "Towards Collaboration." Yes.

My first collaboration. Yes. Why did you choose now? Why did you choose her? Uh, it's like Reese chose me. So Reese came to me. By the way, I usually like to have this conversation with Reese so Reese can say that part, because it always sounds so boastful. So one day Reese Witherspoon called me, but that's exactly why I want to invite someone. Yes. Can someone play Reese for me? Yes. Does anyone want to be someone...Reese? So Reese, she called me. We have known each other for several years.

Has she starred in anything with yours? No, we never worked together. We're just fans of each other , and we're friends. Good. And she said, " I have an idea I want to talk to you about. " “And I am reluctant. I...I shouldn't say exactly what it would be for the novel, but I was very careful. I don't do that. I'm not like that. There are people who are like that. I'm not like that . Jim Patterson is that person. He…he certainly did it. But there are many people who do it, they like it.

I'm just not like that. And I've been repeating this over and over throughout my career, and you probably do the same. I say, "I'll never do that," and then I eventually do it. So I always thought, "I'll never do it," but then again , I was waiting for 36, 37 or 38 books. So I didn't sell out all the books in advance or anything like that. But then Reese came along, and I thought, “How do I politely say Reese Witherspoon?” I'm sure it's a great idea, but it's not for me.

And then she tells me about this idea." I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ]." I could do something about it. I like it. “And I get out a notebook and we start discussing it. And at the end of it all, Reese says, "Um, are you going to do this to me?" I'm like, "Yeah, let's try it." I called my publisher. They were delighted with this idea . And you know, the other thing we can talk about with creativity is that it's always good to push yourself. It's always good to do something new.

I don't care how many years you've been doing the same thing . I am always looking for new challenges. Do you ever get bored with yourself? I don't get bored, but I do want to, I just want new challenges. It helps me get excited for everything else. Yes. And I know Reese is the same. You know, Reese took more risks than I did in some ways. But we both knew. And I said to her on the first day something like, " Okay, this can't be done like one of those celebrity books." The only hands that touch this are ours." No one else is allowed to enter the room.

No one else is allowed to see this. This should be a priority. “And going back to your original question, we can’t think about this being adapted into a film or a television series. Maybe, but we...I write without thinking about the fact that this is the kiss of death. Honestly, I think writing a book thinking, “Oh, this would make a really good film adaptation. "A book is a book." "Yes, that would be true." Most of my things are like that . But if I strive for it, it won't work.

The caveat is that I can, I am willing to change everything. I don't believe in remaining devoted, slavishly devoted to a text. I believe that changes need to be made. I think the worst adaptations are the ones that try to recreate the book. What the hell is the point of this? If you want to experience a book, read this damn book. So I just worry about what will make a good TV series, a good movie, or a good book. And I'm not worried about the fidelity of the material.

OK. So, you and I know a lot of writers. It's just that when you're a writer, a lot of your friends are writers. And most writers I know, I don't know about you, if they're lucky enough to write something that then intersects with film or television, there's usually heartbreak, tears, and suffering at the end. And then, you know, there were the movies and Bartonfink." There are many, many stories about great writers going to Hollywood and just getting complete likes from them. You had a different result.

So let's hear about it. Let's start with the fact that I had such a part. So, when I wrote " Tell No One," there was a huge bidding war in Hollywood. What year is it? The year was 2000, I think. Maybe 2000. The book came out in 2001, so I would say it was 2000. And you were a name then, but not " I am not a name." " Tell No One" was my breakthrough book. Before that, I had seven books by Myron Bolar. So in the community I was a name.

I was a good salesman. I have never won any awards. I won everything at the awards in the detective industry. Awards in the world of detectives and thrillers are serious awards. I'm serious. I know this. " Edgar" is something like " Yes". It was a big deal, but not in terms of sales or anything . something like that. I never made it to the New York Times bestseller list . Never been around. I don't think I can ask how you continued to get contracts for new books if you were a mediocre author?

Or what do we call it, right? Would you be able to last about seven books if you started now? I don't know. I...I doubted it. So, people believed in me, but I... So to give you an idea, my first book, Myron Bolitaro, was in paperback from Dell. So, I was paid $5,000 for it . I don't want to brag, but by the fourth book in the series, I was making up to $6,000. Overnight success. Congratulations. Unbelievable. So I guess part of it was because I was such a pimple on the ass of a $6,000 publication , and I remember it being a true story.

So my first book was a contract for those two books...$10,000... $5,000... $5,000... The contract for the second book, my... The agent tells me, "I agreed to this because they want to give you 11,000. They wanted to do 5,500, 5,000, 500, but I agreed to 5,000 and 6,000. And I'm leaving ." What's the difference, other than it seems like it's a later payment? " He's leaving." This shows growth. "And I'm like, 'If you think I'm aiming for that kind of growth, then it's time to leave this age,'" he said.

“Okay, because you earn a whopping five thousand for a book that takes several months or a year to write. Yes. What is your family situation at the moment? Your wife is a pediatrician. Yes. Was she studying at a medical institute then? Uh, no, she was already working as a pediatrician at what was then called Columbia Presbyterian Hospital? Making big money doesn't mean making big money. I had a full-time job . Where is your job then? I worked for a company called Club ABC Tours, a family-owned travel agency that I ran, helping my grandfather.

I was in charge. Here's another thing I believe in. I don't believe you have to be a full-time writer. I think it's kind of a mistake that we've all come to believe. So, for a long time, I worked for the first eight years after college and wrote at the same time. And then, eventually, when I... What do you do for a travel agency? My grandfather is getting a little old. My mother was there too. I was a bit on the run, I was traveling a lot, planning tours abroad.

So this company was actually the second largest in Italy after Pillo Tours, which I'm sure you've all seen on TV. So I went to Italy. I traveled to Rome, Florence, and Venice and negotiated with hotels in the names of my grandfather and my mother . Would you write while traveling with these? I wrote while traveling. I wrote at night. I was writing, um, during my lunch break. This is the coolest part of the program. I do n't accept excuses. You don't have time to write. My favorite example is Mary Higgins Clark, the legendary detective novelist.

So when Mary was, I think, 37 years old, she had five children. Her husband died, and the next day, it seems, her mother-in-law died. Hmm, she was left with five children, no husband, no real financial support . She had a full-time...job. She would wake up and write from 5:00 to 7:00 in the morning, then wake the children. So don't tell me you don't have time to write. This is nonsense. This means that your life is filled with things that are more important to you than writing.

In that case, you are not a writer. This is normal. Move on with your life. So, in my opinion, you can always find time to write. It may take you 14 months instead of 12, but you can always write. Have you ever studied writing? No, never. I mean, I majored in political science at Ammeris College, which I chose because it only had writing . I've never taken tests. You could always...You could always quickly write a 4+ paper if I needed it . So I didn't have to prepare for the tests.

It turns out you were n't the only writer in Amherst at the time. Yes. No, actually there were a lot of us. So my freshman year I lived next door to David Foster Wallace, right? He lived next door to me during my freshman year . How was it? Well, it's funny, because at the time, none of us knew we would become writers. Ammeris College was in a pretty dire situation there. There were only 4,420 students in each class. Everyone seemed pretty brilliant. It was a small Ivy League college, but I got accepted there because of my basketball game.

I was a good basketball player in high school, and that's how I got there. My grades were good. My SATs were good, but it wasn't just Amoris College. So I was a little scared to move from a New Jersey public high school to Amherst, and I took an introductory political science course, and David Foster Wallace was in my class . Dave Wallace then, you know, and I wrote my first paper and it got something like a 4 or a 4 minus. I go back to the dorm with David.

I'm like: David, what did you write in your paper? And he says: I got an A. I'm like: can I just read this because I'm curious what a job with an A looks like? type. And I read this, and I think, oh my God, how can I not fail? I'm going to get out of here so quickly because I didn't realize at the time that David was the smartest person I'd ever met. And I say this from the perspective of that guy in class who everyone seemed to sit and listen to when he spoke.

Did you see what he was going to write, what he would write later ? Did you see all this in him then? I wouldn't say I would tell everything, but it wouldn't be if you told me which guy I knew in freshman year became a brilliant writer...I see things distortedly. It was David. He was a strange guy. Dan Brown was also in your fraternity. Yes. Dan Brown was also there at the same time. Was he a writer? No, none of us really, you know, we did n't really write back then.

Actually, Dan, I think, was more interested in music at the time, and we were friendly, but we didn't know each other very well. We are in the same fraternity, but we knew each other. And I remember a couple of years later, after I had had some success, Dan came to me with the manuscript of The Da Vinci Code and asked me, "We're publishing this... uh , can you read this?" "And I was the first person who ever really valued this book. And, um, you liked it .

I liked it. And I actually read that it was based on a non-fiction book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail that I read, and I liked the theory. I thought this book was really cool, and I thought what a brilliant idea it was to take this theory and turn it into fiction. I think for a lot of people who read your books, which are a lot, or people who watch your TV shows and movies based on the books, you, you know, are your brand. Also, your name is good, it's the good Harlon Cobin.

It seems fake to me. Yes. I know that's not true. And it is also constantly written with errors. So it's not a very good name. It's Garland from EN or Cohen or Coben or Harlem. So I often get written with mistakes. OK. Aside from all these problems, hmm, I like the name. Hmm, so when I read your books, the character's wife in The Fugitive is named Ingrid, but that seems to be somewhat similar to your real wife, Anne , right? Yes. So it seems to me that Mine is the kind of character that, uh, the average reader could easily think of as a little bit like Harlon Cobin, right?

We agree. Basketball sports agent. Yes . Yes. Um, and a lot of the names, maybe just because I know you a little bit and because we live in New York, a lot of the names have something familiar, or I think there's a wink to them. Names are pretty strong signals, often something like class affiliation or something. So, how much do you think about this ? And, uh, I guess you name people after people you know from time to time. Yes, sometimes. First of all, I'm doing this charity, uh, where if you donate, I think it's $5,000 right now to a charity of my choice, uh, I'll use your name or the name of a loved one in the book.

I don't accept requests. You could...usually it's a neighbor who mentioned something one time, but you know you could be a murderer, you could be...a dead body. Read my books first before you decide to do this. Do you understand what I mean? If you're old, you know that I get letters like this that say, "I'm buying this for my mom." She is 85 years old and loves to play croquet. I think she'd be, you know, drunk, living in an alley in my book . So that's one of the ways I cope sometimes.

But sometimes it's just a feeling, you know, it's just, you know, he's Ken. For example, I wrote one book, I do n't remember what it was, I think it was Innocent, and I named the main character Jeff. And somewhere along the way it's like he's not Jeff, he's Will or something , or Matt. And I'm just changing how some people pronounce the name. Yes. Another method, if you will, is that I have to make the names different enough that when you read them quickly, they don't have this: if I have Steve, I won't have Stan, because when you read them quickly, you...You'll confuse them.

Usually I have someone who just uses their initials. Yes. In the book I just wrote with Reese, one of the main characters is named Pork Chop . This is a name you won't forget. This is a name you won't look at and think of anyone else. It's also a great nickname. And he...he's a biker, dude. So you get Pork Chop right away. So, honestly, reading a lot of your writing the last few weeks, I was reminded of one writer who I don't know if you've thought of yourself in com, but Tom Wolfe.

So, Tom was a great New York writer. Of course. I think you're a great New York writer. They're not all New Yorkers, but there's a lot of New York in what you write . But also, um, he wrote these novels that were almost nonfiction - popular books, but novelistic. But one thing that I think we all loved about reading Tom Wolfe's fiction is that they had a reporter's eye for detail and observation, because he...I've been a reporter for a long time. So when I read you, when I read, let's say, *The Runaway*, and there's a scene at the beginning, something happens in Strawberry Fields in Central Park, and the main character, Simon, the runaway's father, um, finds out about the schedule of these, um, singers, these beggar singers.

It's just one of those moments where, when you're reading, it's not the plot itself, but it's such a great thing to learn now. And I'm curious how that would work for you. Well, that's quite interesting. Um, if you go now, if we go to Central Park, um, Strawberry Fields, and we go in there, the guy's name is Davey, and he'll talk to you, by the way, as much as anyone . At the bookmaker's office, his name is Davey. Yes, it kept its name because I noticed when I was there that they changed every hour .

There was chaos before. The guys sang over each other, fought and were somewhere nearby. cue, they all got together and said, "Hey, for all of us, so we can all make money from this, we need a schedule." And Davey is still the one who composes it. So the guys come to him, and he writes down what time they'll play, and they all play, watch for an hour. They are much more sophisticated now. Everyone has microphones. Everyone has QR codes to make donations and so on. So I asked one of the guys, "How do you decide who's here?" And he answers: " Davey." “So I went over and talked to Davey for a bit, and got all this information from him .

What will you say to Dave? Are you saying I'm a novelist? I say, yes, I'm writing a book, I noticed this guy. Everyone is always ready to talk about what they do. People love to talk about what they do. And I don't know how many years ago, I remember meeting Davey over 10 years ago, and every morning when I walk the dog , I still say hello to Davey. He's always around, man. So say hello to him. He is a great guy. I'm one of the few writers who will tell you that.

I am a very lazy researcher. I don't believe in research for a book. I think if you're trying to write a book, the advice I give you is to not do any research. Do as little as possible. Art book. I hope so. Yes. Yes. But here's what I'm defending, and I'm defending this position because no other writer you know, oh, we should do this. You should know..." this. And I know it. But here's the reason I say this. There are two reasons. First, you will find any excuse not to write.

This is how I'm going to write, but first how about I panel the walls in my basement. You will do anything to avoid this moment. You have to sit down and write. So research is much more interesting than writing. Oh, I'm going to write a scene on Park Avenue in New York. First, I have to go to Park Avenue. I have to sniff out the hot dog stands. I have to watch how women walk. No, no. You were there. You know this. You have an imagination.

You have Google Earth. Write that damn scene now. Then you can go up to her and look at her. Don't use his excuse not to write. Secondly, we've all read this fiction book, a novel, where the writer did a lot of research and he got lost in it. So he keeps slowing down because he wants to give you the facts . It's not a problem for me because I do n't know anything. You see, that's why ...That's why I recommend it. I'm trying to find that one moment that brings it all to life, like that detail you just mentioned.

So I'll tell you one short story that I think illustrates this. I was once a member of a group called Adams Roundt. Mary Higgins Clark was one of the founders. It has existed for many years. When I first joined, I was the youngest member, about 80 years old. But anyway, one day they had a conversation, because all these detective writers, and Lee Child had been a member for a while. Nelson Dale, uh, Peter Stra. So, there were a lot of leading writers there, Susan Isaacs, and the question was, what is the scariest sound in the world?

It's the cry of a mother, the cry of a child, a man being tortured, whatever. And one of the members says, “No, no, no. You are all alone in the forest, in a hut in the forest. You know you are all alone. You are all alone in the forest. All alone. You know you're all alone in the house." I'm already feeling bad enough. "And upstairs, And upstairs you can hear the sound of the toilet flushing, right?" This is the moment you look for as a writer.

I wouldn't vote for this sound as the scariest because the sound of a toilet flushing is somewhat comical. But you're alone in the house. I know, but I think someone really had to leave. Well, you know, but there's no one else in your house. I know. Could have been a squirrel. I know. So you're not going to...You scare me all the time, but for some reason the toilet calms me down. Terrible toilet. Maybe more like Harlon Cobin than me, but he intrigued me. So we came up with a little game to see how his mind works.

We gave him a package of everyday objects to see how he could use them in a novel. What is it? What the hell is this ? Cool mint nicotine sachets. Well, okay. I think it's not actually a nicotine sachet. It's probably some kind of hemp juice with a high dose of THC. Or I would find it in... » someone in someone's room who I know never smokes. Why should it be in a child's room, for example? Or could there be something here that shouldn't be here ?

I'll give you another example. One day I took these kids of mine to Halloween with their mom. Your children? My children. And I was with another mom who was taking her kids, and she had, um, a bottle of Poland Springs water, and one of the kids spilled something on it. So we grabbed, like, a water bottle to do it, and she's like, "You can't, it's vodka." I expressed my opinion. There 's a novel right there. I want to talk to you about writing. I really want to know, um, how much feedback you collect and receive, and who you get notes from, these days it's very, very few and very, very few.

So contractually, I do n't know if it's contractually, but I sent my publisher about 100 pages, mainly to put them at ease and make sure they knew I was doing this. It's okay, that's how it is. Good. I really don't want to hear any criticism at this stage, and everyone knows that , because, as you know, I'm vulnerable in the sense that if I'm criticized in the beginning, I get scared. Let me finish and then you can tell me what you think might be wrong. But if you tell me in the middle of a conversation, I'll think, "Oh my God, this isn't working." You know, being a writer is still very insecure, very self-deprecating.

Do you ever get stuck? Yes, I get stuck all the time, but I learn as part of the process and use it, try to make it a challenge. What to do when you get stuck? I just sit and watch until my ears start to bleed. I mean, what you can't do is say, "Oh, I'm stuck today." “I go shopping, you know, or watch what’s on TV. You have to constantly look at it and look for ways and challenges, or take a walk, or do something else that will stimulate you to get out of it.

But a lot of it is also, you know, similar to not going to the gym. You have to force yourself to go to the gym. So often a creative crisis occurs when I just don't feel like going to the gym that day. But if I don't write, I'm not a writer. So who the hell am I ? I am nothing. You know, I blame myself a lot. I think it's necessary to have that kind of insecurity. We still have to take care. Only bad writers think they are good.

We all have imposter syndrome. We all suffer from all this. Stephen King still suffers from it. He sent me the book, um, a moment ago, because it's very flattering, but he used my me as a character in the book. And he asked permission, as if I…” Would I say “no” to Stephen King? As if I'm not the nicest creature in the world. But he sent me a book to read. He says, "I want to send you a book, make sure you read it and like it." And "I kind of sensed that he was nervous, my reaction...

I'm like, 'Steve, are you really nervous?'" Well, he says, 'Yes.' "I'm leaving." Damn, so this [ __ ] never goes away? "He says, "No, it never goes away... " So if Stephen King still has it... I felt a lot better that I could still have that fear. And I think that's what keeps you going when you stop being afraid. Maybe you're starting to be that writer who reports it over the phone. I still get excited about every book. I panic with every book, every TV show.

I understand they will hate it. I will be exposed. I will be exposed when the imposter syndrome appears. And I think in my case it feeds you. You have to let these things nourish you, not paralyze you. This is the key to writing. Any of these fears, for most people, paralyzes them. It nourishes me. So this fascinates me because I think anyone who has ever tried to not just write a book but create something could identify with this. I remember the best writing advice I ever received.

I was about to write my first book, and a guy who had written a few books said that there would be at least one or two moments in the next few months where you would be convinced that... I don't have a book, and you should stop and do something. 100% commitment. You are terrible. And then, when that moment came, if he hadn't told me, I probably would have stopped . But your advice, while I like it and identify with it , seems foreign to me to a lot of people in the world right now, where so much advice is about, you know, changing your life hack to perform better.

Um, I think people don't want to put up with any uncertainty. I think people don't want to have any self- doubt. They just want to move towards a positive outcome. Do you have any advice for people on how to embrace their, you know, inner anxiety or inner stress? Because, you know, psychologists talk about positive and negative stress. It seems to me that you are maximizing positive stress and making it work for you, but people in general are uncomfortable with it. First, I think people should stop listening to any of this advice.

I sometimes go online. I can't believe this crappy advice that's being spread everywhere. social media, and I post. Oh my God, I could lose...I could...I could go crazy from all this bad advice. So, first of all, turn off that damn computer. Um, I... hate to knock because I'm sure these people will be at your place and people will be listening, so I'm going to get a lot of crap about it . I can't stand the term " self-care." None of us are selfish enough in our lives.

You don't think about yourself first. Yes, you think. In fact, you think so much of yourself that you're constantly searching social media for things that would tell you that you don't think enough of yourself. That's how much you think about yourself all the time. Stop this. Just get to work. Do what needs to be done. I treat this job like a plumber. A plumber can't wake up one day and say, "Oh my God, I can't do any plumbing today." I just love it, and every artist, I hate that term too.

I prefer a creator or someone else, but every person I know who creates pages, whether it's your most literary author or your most commercial romance novelist , they treat it like work, they treat it like something that needs to be done. “And so I stop, I just stop listening to that advice. And why is it that every person I see online who talks about dating has only dated a narcissist? They are never narcissists. You never leave, you know what the problem with this relationship is? I was a narcissist.

No, I've dated 47 heterosexual narcissists. Maybe it's you, dear. Maybe it's you, sir. So, you know, we just love these blind spots. And that's how I build character, watching these things online and getting angry at the way I swear at you. This could be the impetus for something that could become a book. This was very helpful. This episode of "Best Impersonator" is presented by ChatGpt. Working with GPT in chat goes beyond answers and puts real work into it. This is a new experience in GPT chat for larger multi-stage projects across web, mobile, and desktop.

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Use ChatGpt to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new Chat GPT desktop app today. Several people we spoke to beforehand who we told you we would talk to, including some family members, etc., often mentioned your wandering thoughts, as they are called, as a tool, essentially. Hmm, and I'm interested to hear, first of all, whether you agree with this? And how does that serve you? Well, I guess by wandering thoughts they mean that I get easily distracted, and I sometimes have my kids say, "Oh, Daddy's gone." "So I'm always looking for what I can use in a story?

How can I turn this around? How can I make this a writer's tip? Ideas come to me at strange times, and I have to implement them. So I can be a rude guest sometimes. I'm not the one who's focused on you all the time. Hmm, and so people who know me are used to it. I guess that's what they mean, I guess . But when I think about it, we're all trying to figure out how we got to where we are , whether it's a good place or a bad place, whether we like the outcome or not.

I'm trying to isolate any variables, because most of us, as humans, I'd like to think, are pretty similar, right? We all want to be loved. We want to eat delicious food. We want to be protected and all that . But there are also these, you know, variables that vary a lot from person to person. So for me as a writer, the things that I think made me be…” I could do that if I was the one trying. I just , you know, I tried really hard.

I may not have the most natural abilities, but I will try. And secondly, I know how to notice. And I think it comes from being the youngest in a large family where I didn't speak. When you think about yourself, what drives your ability to write what you write and turn the books that you write into things that millions and millions and millions of people really love, and not just because it's complicated, and not just because it puts you on edge, but because it somehow connects you to them.

What is it? I think it's probably my parents, their early death. I mean, um, they both died when they were the same age as me. Um, they were both extremely intelligent. I think both felt frustrated by their relative station in life, clearly middle class, seeing people they weren't bitter, but seeing people who were like that, they probably felt not as smart or talented as they were their bosses or underlings. One of the last things I ... My father lost his job when he was 57, and he died of a heart attack at 59.

And I remember him telling me, " Try never to work for anyone else. Try to be your own boss." What kind of work did he do? He had a law degree, but at the time he was something of an executive, a kind of in-house legal advisor, at a company that provided laundry services. For example, when someone comes to a restaurant every night and takes away dirty laundry, sheets, etc. I thought it was just the mafia. Maybe he was. Well, also my family, not my father and my mother, my grandfather, were definitely close-knit and connected.

My entire city was united. What city? Livingston, New Jersey. Livingston. O. Oh, yes. So, partly it was because, um, partly they were kind of ambitious, and I think all my brothers, and I think they're all ambitious. I've always had what I call gradual ambitions. So when I first wanted to be a writer, I thought, "I just want to publish a book in a real publishing house one day." I just want to walk past a bookstore one day and see my book. Okay, two books to show that this is no coincidence .

Just two books. Well, if I could carve out something uncomfortable for myself to do for a living, but enough so I could say, that would be great. Well, if I could spend an hour a day looking at the latest position in the New York Times, like number 15, just so I could get into the top 10, top 5, one day, day. So yes, I continued in the same vein, and in those days the only advantage I had was that there was no internet. So, as we talked about earlier about the crappy money I was making on original paperback books.

I didn't know how low I was. I thought I was a cat's ass. I had a book published by a major publisher . I had no idea I would be number 1,347,000 on Amazon today. Amazon was not there. I thought I was a pretty hot guy. Do you understand what I mean? So I also had a reason to just keep going. And I was extremely ambitious about what I was going to do, and I believed that I had talent, that I could become a writer. The early tragic death of my parents, which I wrote about in an essay.

I think ultimately, and this is not a positive point, and I know I don't believe in suffering for your art, but there's no doubt that they make me a better writer. There is no doubt. The hard thing that we talked about earlier comes from the grief that I've gone through, that in many ways most of my books are about the parent-child relationship, that connection and what it's like to lose someone in all of these books. And I don't think it's a coincidence that I always have missing people, because with missing people there is always hope.

There is always hope that maybe they can come back, and often it is possible to not just go missing, but to be almost certain that we are almost certain that they are dead. There are dead people who are not dead in your books . That's right. And what is the greater hope? I mean, you know, I keep having dreams about my father being alive, and in that dream there's always some kind of bill problem or something. I try to tell him not to worry about it anymore.

I have money and everything . There 's always a moment in these dreams where I'm so glad he's alive, and you just accept it. And then there's that moment in the dream when you realize it's probably a dream, and you'll wake up and he'll still be dead . And I'm actually trying to grab hold of him, to take him with me. And yet my father died in 1988. Hmm, I still have these things happen to me with my parents when I was in my 20s and early 30s.

I read seven tombstones by the time I was 32 . I think I've only read one since then. So this period of time was probably very informative for what I write. So, Stephen King likes to say that if he couldn't write, he would have died a long time ago , that it was a way for him to process a lot of emotions. When I think of you, you seem like such a solid person, you know, but then when I read you, I feel a fragility in the stories and the characters and the emotions, and that's what makes it fascinating.

What about you? If you didn't have that, does writing help you transform fragility into personal resilience and vice versa, or is it all your imagination? That's a really good question. I don't know if I would have gone as far as Steve, and he had a history of dealing with abuse, you know, drug issues and things like that, which he was very open and honest about, and I don't know if I would have gone crazy. But having said that, I know that if I write poorly, my life is out of balance.

So what do you mean by balance in your life? Well, you know, proper nutrition , exercise, your relationship with your partner, your relationship with your children, your friends, your social life–all of that can be great and balanced, but if my creativity isn't balanced, it's all going to tip over and fall. You also just answered a question my daughter sent when I told her I was talking to you today. She said, "Does it take an ugly mind to write ugly stories?" I think not. I think one of my favorite quotes that I use is by Flabbergast, which says you need to be regular and orderly in your real life.

So you can be fierce and original in your work. I like it. I am also a big fan of opposites. There can be no left without a right. There can be no rise without a fall. There can be no darkness without light. Most of my books take place in the suburbs or quiet ponds where even a single stone can create ripples. If I were writing this book in a stormy ocean, I could throw as many stones into that ocean as you can. You won't even see them hit.

So you need a calm whirlpool to create these ripples. You told me that Netflix, I think, discovered that a suburban house on a movie poster is the scariest thing in the world. Yes, the scariest, but of my books, of my materials, they attract the most attention. What were the other options? Well, we have dozens. I mean, if... So, this is a little... I'm giving you guys some inside information from Netflix, I think. I hope Netflix doesn't get mad. But usually Netflix has, I would say, 15 to 20 posters for each TV show.

And you can notice that, right? You go on a show, and one day, let's say my show, " Safe," there'll be a picture of Michael C. Hall and... The next day there'll be two women, and the next day there'll be a suburban street, a police officer, whatever it is . They're changing it to try to figure out, I guess, your personal algorithm. And also just to see what will impress you. And then they like to play this game with me where they say, "Okay, guess which poster did the best." And for me it's always a poster.

This is not attractive at all . But it's always a house. It's always the suburbs. It's you or something like a gate in front of the house. That's what I think signals to people that something is going to be disturbed in the suburbs. And that's the appeal of my shows. I know. Hmm, you always tell your family that I'm really going to stop soon. At least, that's what we were told. Are you really telling them that? No. I am 63 years old. Hmm, and I'm working harder , doing more things than ever before.

I've never had a month like this . Never. But now I'm lucky in this regard. I'm not ready to give it up to give up these things. But every year I think that when I was just a writer, before I had television, I always joked that I did n't really have a real job because you just make up your own schedule. Right now I have meetings and other things I have to do. Do you like collaborating at all? Because you seem to like spending time alone.

I like both . I mean, I, you know, I, I... right. I spent most of my life alone in a room, and I don't regret a single day of it. How many people can say that? I'm an introvert, but I'm a pretty good introvert. I can trick you, make you not be... You can make yourself tune in to...uh... That's right. Then I will come back, and then you will feel exhausted. Yes, I will be back. I feel exhausted after this. Yes. Do you think most writers are introverts?

I...er... I don't know if most are like that, but the ones I know, yeah, we're pretty social with each other, and they're actually pretty normal. Hmm, but we really need some alone time, and we need this time. And it suits me , because I'm alone in a room, writing, and then I get a little feeling that I wish I was on a film set or someone else. And then I go to the set for two or three days. I'm like: oh God, let me be alone in the room again.

So it actually feeds off each other from a writing perspective, rather than draining me one way or another. Should we talk about Netflix a little more? How is this good for you? Deal with Netflix. It's fantastic because, you know, listen, I'm a commercial author, and I say that without any shame. I want to sell a lot of books... Have you ever wanted to be a literary figure? It's not that you weren't one . You are. I know what you mean , but let me get this straight.

Every writer you've ever sat down with or talked to wants two things: more sales and more critical acclaim, right? I don't care who you are. Any writer who denies this is a liar. Oh, I don't care about sales. All I care about is ...Nonsense. Nonsense. My only concern is that all the reviews are bad . I sell nonsense. It's all human nature. So let's stop pretending with this nonsense. I am a Berkeley tree in the forest. If a tree falls and no one hears it, it makes a sound.

If I write a book and no one hears it, you know, that's when people tell me, "I want to write, but only for myself." It's like saying, "I'm only talking to myself." This is nonsense. This is therapy. This is not writing. How does this relate to Netflix? Netflix is ​​available in 190 countries. I do n't even know how many countries. I think there are only 195 of them. The only one that isn't in about three, like North Korea and two other places like that. Um, 190 countries.

Over 300 million families are subscribed to it. You topped Netflix in minutes of viewing. That's true. For me, it was once the number one show in terms of viewership. Number one. I am very proud of this. Hmm, congratulations. But 100 million families watched all eight episodes in the first 90 days. Have you ever tried to imagine what they look like in a mass? No. I don't have such a good imagination. Do you think a lot about what the effect is? Not necessarily about the effect that you have, but about the effect that this mass audience has, because, frankly, there are n't many things in the world that unite so many people.

No, but I'm glad for it and grateful for it. It's such an honor and privilege to be on the other side of this, and I don't want to sound like a slob, but what you do and what I do is that people will listen to you and choose this from millions of podcasts, they've counted millions of books; You go to a bookstore, there are thousands of books, you choose mine, or you go to Netflix and choose my show, and I take it very seriously. If you are disappointed, I am disappointed in myself; I am not happy.

I really want to experience your wandering thoughts again. I think we got you excited. Okay, Harlon Cobin is obviously a good player, but I think he's really starting to hate this game. Part of the problem is that you seem to be giving the impression of something magical, or that I'm just clicking like this. It's sitting and staring at the wall for hours. Take your time . Sit down and watch this. What is this? What kind of sock is the dream? Can I swear on this? FDA approved smart baby monitor .

OK. So, seeing that, I would think, how could I make it track someone, or make it match someone else. Or imagine putting a sock on your child in the middle of the night, and then when you wake up, the pulse is there, but it's no longer on your child's sock. You see, like this. Here we have a story. It's like a baby monitor. How do I always think that if I heard something strange through the baby monitor, what shouldn't I have heard? So wait, who is this sock on if not my child?

I don't know. It'll be the same... Well, you have to read 350 pages before you understand where it is or why someone is making fun of you. It was fantastic. Okay, last question. Um, you're writing a play. I am writing. I'm trying to write a play. I was booked by a group in London's West End. Um, and their offer was quite interesting to me. " The Mousetrap" has been running for 73 years. We need a new thriller or a new mystery. At first it was one of those scenes where I had no idea, no thoughts, nothing at all .

And then I had my first scene. This is something that works. Give us something. I won't give it to you. But I gave them the first scene and they said, "Oh, that's good." And I say : "This is all I have." And then I went home that same evening. I literally ate the rest until the next morning. This has happened to me twice in my life. Lazarus. I don't understand how such a mind works. I wish I had that kind of mind. I think it's right, but that's all I do, other people wake up and have to do their jobs and do their things.

I only think about the fact that I have nothing else to think about. That's all. So that's why you're good at it. I have nothing left. I don't come up with something like a play in the morning and have it ready by the evening . The idea is now the hardest part . I have to do it. The hardest thing is writing. The ideas are not that complicated. But the hardest part, as you know, is that you've written enough books to gather all the information. It's quite fun.

And you try to organize everything. It's quite fun. But only writing counts as writing. Everything else is indifference and boredom. Can I just say that I'm so happy for you? Thank you, friend. I'm happy for you. Perfectly. I think it's obviously a great career, but I also think you're kind of an inspiration. But I also simply don't see a drop of cynicism in you . And I really appreciate that, because I think when you're successful at something, you can start to take it for granted, like, well, of course I should be successful because everyone else is terrible.

And I don't feel that in you . So, uh, thank you. Thank you for thanking me. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you all. Unlikely. Oh, okay. Yes, it's difficult. It's hard to convey my raw animal magnetism in photography. Good luck, guys. You have a really difficult task today. So good luck in your attempts to achieve it. Thanks again to ChatGpt for sponsoring today's episode of " Better in Person." ChatGpt can help teams move from goals to real results. Get ChatGpt involved in working on your most ambitious ideas and projects.

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