Happiness Expert on How Lockdowns, Social Media & Division Broke Our Brains

When there's not happiness, when you see When there's not happiness, when you see a lot of misery, there's a blockage of a lot of misery, there's a blockage of a lot of misery, there's a blockage of one of these three macronutrients. So, one of these three macronutrients. So, one of these three macronutrients. So, we've got an enjoyment problem, a we've got an enjoyment problem, a we've got an enjoyment problem, a satisfaction problem, or Today's guest satisfaction problem, or Today's guest satisfaction problem, or Today's guest is Arthur Brooks. is Arthur Brooks. is Arthur Brooks. >> He is a Harvard professor and social >> He is a Harvard professor and social >> He is a Harvard professor and social scientist. scientist. scientist. >> From French porn player to CEO of a >> From French porn player to CEO of a >> From French porn player to CEO of a think tank to bestselling author think tank to bestselling author think tank to bestselling author >> and one of the sharpest minds on what >> and one of the sharpest minds on what >> and one of the sharpest minds on what actually makes people happy. actually makes people happy. actually makes people happy. >> This is a psychoggenic epidemic, which >> This is a psychoggenic epidemic, which >> This is a psychoggenic epidemic, which means it's highly socially contagious, means it's highly socially contagious, means it's highly socially contagious, creates lots of misery. Young people creates lots of misery. Young people creates lots of misery. Young people will say, "Life doesn't feel real. I'm will say, "Life doesn't feel real. I'm will say, "Life doesn't feel real. I'm living in a simulation." living in a simulation." living in a simulation." >> When did you first cotton on to the fact >> When did you first cotton on to the fact >> When did you first cotton on to the fact that there was a crisis of meaning of that there was a crisis of meaning of that there was a crisis of meaning of foot? Like what is going on? foot? Like what is going on? foot? Like what is going on? >> When you see a lot of unhappiness, then >> When you see a lot of unhappiness, then >> When you see a lot of unhappiness, then you got to figure out what's actually you got to figure out what's actually you got to figure out what's actually happening. The reason is because I'm uh delighted to have you back. It's I'm uh delighted to have you back. It's great to see you, my friend. Uh there's great to see you, my friend. Uh there's great to see you, my friend. Uh there's a ton that I want to talk to you about, a ton that I want to talk to you about, a ton that I want to talk to you about, but let's start with the macronutrients but let's start with the macronutrients but let's start with the macronutrients of happiness, which are enjoyment, of happiness, which are enjoyment, of happiness, which are enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. This third satisfaction, and meaning. This third satisfaction, and meaning. This third macronutrient of happiness is something macronutrient of happiness is something macronutrient of happiness is something that the modern world is fairly that the modern world is fairly that the modern world is fairly inhospitable to. inhospitable to. inhospitable to. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> It acts as an antagonist to meaning. >> It acts as an antagonist to meaning. >> It acts as an antagonist to meaning. Meaning that, you know, Houston, we have Meaning that, you know, Houston, we have Meaning that, you know, Houston, we have a problem essentially, which is the a problem essentially, which is the a problem essentially, which is the reason why you decided to write this reason why you decided to write this reason why you decided to write this book. When did you first cotton on to book. When did you first cotton on to book. When did you first cotton on to the fact that there was a crisis of the fact that there was a crisis of the fact that there was a crisis of meaning of foot? Like what is going on? meaning of foot? Like what is going on? meaning of foot? Like what is going on? >> I came back to academia in 2019. I'd >> I came back to academia in 2019. I'd >> I came back to academia in 2019. I'd been gone for a while. I'm an old school been gone for a while. I'm an old school been gone for a while. I'm an old school college professor and I'd been teaching college professor and I'd been teaching college professor and I'd been teaching for a long time. When I left in 2008, I for a long time. When I left in 2008, I for a long time. When I left in 2008, I went to Washington DC, your hometown, went to Washington DC, your hometown, went to Washington DC, your hometown, >> and I ran this great big think tank for >> and I ran this great big think tank for >> and I ran this great big think tank for 11 years. And I wasn't thinking very 11 years. And I wasn't thinking very 11 years. And I wasn't thinking very much about academia because I was much about academia because I was much about academia because I was completely absorbed in what I was doing. completely absorbed in what I was doing. completely absorbed in what I was doing. I wasn't paying attention to what was I wasn't paying attention to what was I wasn't paying attention to what was going on on campuses. I came back in going on on campuses. I came back in going on on campuses. I came back in 2019 and it was different than the world 2019 and it was different than the world 2019 and it was different than the world I'd left. So I in 20 in 2008, as I'd left. So I in 20 in 2008, as I'd left. So I in 20 in 2008, as recently as 2008, college students were recently as 2008, college students were recently as 2008, college students were happier than people not on campus. They happier than people not on campus. They happier than people not on campus. They were falling in love and they were were falling in love and they were were falling in love and they were making friends and they were making friends and they were making friends and they were experimenting with dangerous and weird experimenting with dangerous and weird experimenting with dangerous and weird ideas and having their minds blown and ideas and having their minds blown and ideas and having their minds blown and they were partying. And when I came back they were partying. And when I came back they were partying. And when I came back in 2019, depression rates had tripled. in 2019, depression rates had tripled. in 2019, depression rates had tripled. Clinical anxiety or generalized anxiety Clinical anxiety or generalized anxiety Clinical anxiety or generalized anxiety was up by a factor of two. There was was up by a factor of two. There was was up by a factor of two. There was loneliness. campuses were racked by loneliness. campuses were racked by loneliness. campuses were racked by protest and identity politics and cancel protest and identity politics and cancel protest and identity politics and cancel culture and it was a completely culture and it was a completely culture and it was a completely different world and and of course as a different world and and of course as a different world and and of course as a behavioral scientist the first thing I behavioral scientist the first thing I behavioral scientist the first thing I want to know is you know sort of want to know is you know sort of want to know is you know sort of Sherlock Holmes Sherlock Holmes Sherlock Holmes >> would cause this and so I went in search >> would cause this and so I went in search >> would cause this and so I went in search when you see a lot of unhappiness which when you see a lot of unhappiness which when you see a lot of unhappiness which you know these mood disorders that you know these mood disorders that you know these mood disorders that really really high levels represent then really really high levels represent then really really high levels represent then you got to figure out what's actually you got to figure out what's actually you got to figure out what's actually happening and you always know when you happening and you always know when you happening and you always know when you when you go into a company or a family when you go into a company or a family when you go into a company or a family or or or into a culture and you see a or or or into a culture and you see a or or or into a culture and you see a lot of misery, there's a blockage of one lot of misery, there's a blockage of one lot of misery, there's a blockage of one of these three macronutrients. So the of these three macronutrients. So the of these three macronutrients. So the three parts of happiness, it's not a three parts of happiness, it's not a three parts of happiness, it's not a feeling. Happiness isn't a feeling. feeling. Happiness isn't a feeling. feeling. Happiness isn't a feeling. Feelings are evidence of happiness. Feelings are evidence of happiness. Feelings are evidence of happiness. That's the smell of dinner. The dinner That's the smell of dinner. The dinner That's the smell of dinner. The dinner is made up of protein, carbohydrates, is made up of protein, carbohydrates, is made up of protein, carbohydrates, and fat. And the macronutrient profile and fat. And the macronutrient profile and fat. And the macronutrient profile is off when it's not nutritious. When is off when it's not nutritious. When is off when it's not nutritious. When when there's not happiness, when you see when there's not happiness, when you see when there's not happiness, when you see a lot of misery, one of the a lot of misery, one of the a lot of misery, one of the macronutrients is blocked or more. So, macronutrients is blocked or more. So, macronutrients is blocked or more. So, we've got an enjoyment problem, a we've got an enjoyment problem, a we've got an enjoyment problem, a satisfaction problem, or a meaning satisfaction problem, or a meaning satisfaction problem, or a meaning problem. That's where the investigation problem. That's where the investigation problem. That's where the investigation started in 2019. And this is like the started in 2019. And this is like the started in 2019. And this is like the height of trouble. height of trouble. height of trouble. And and there's no evidence that young And and there's no evidence that young And and there's no evidence that young people enjoy their lives any less than people enjoy their lives any less than people enjoy their lives any less than you and me. On the contrary, they enjoy you and me. On the contrary, they enjoy you and me. On the contrary, they enjoy their lives more. their lives more. their lives more. >> There's no less satisfaction. I teach at >> There's no less satisfaction. I teach at >> There's no less satisfaction. I teach at Harvard. Tons of satisfaction. It's the Harvard. Tons of satisfaction. It's the Harvard. Tons of satisfaction. It's the joy from accomplishments with struggle. joy from accomplishments with struggle. joy from accomplishments with struggle. You and I are satisfaction freaks. By You and I are satisfaction freaks. By You and I are satisfaction freaks. By the way, that's the reason that you and the way, that's the reason that you and the way, that's the reason that you and I have trouble with enjoyment, enjoying I have trouble with enjoyment, enjoying I have trouble with enjoyment, enjoying our lives. our lives. our lives. >> Yeah, we're going to get into that. >> Yeah, we're going to get into that. >> Yeah, we're going to get into that. >> We need a book called How to Enjoy Your >> We need a book called How to Enjoy Your >> We need a book called How to Enjoy Your Life, which I I'll write that book for Life, which I I'll write that book for Life, which I I'll write that book for you and me. you and me. you and me. >> Well, yeah. I mean, you have this sort >> Well, yeah. I mean, you have this sort >> Well, yeah. I mean, you have this sort of trifecta. You could write a book of trifecta. You could write a book of trifecta. You could write a book about each of these macronutrients and about each of these macronutrients and about each of these macronutrients and where we're getting it wrong. where we're getting it wrong. where we're getting it wrong. >> Exactly. Exactly. But, but you and I >> Exactly. Exactly. But, but you and I >> Exactly. Exactly. But, but you and I have no trouble with satisfaction, and have no trouble with satisfaction, and have no trouble with satisfaction, and neither do my students. The joy of neither do my students. The joy of neither do my students. The joy of accomplishments after struggle. You're accomplishments after struggle. You're accomplishments after struggle. You're you're the maestro of struggle. I mean, you're the maestro of struggle. I mean, you're the maestro of struggle. I mean, just look at your background and what just look at your background and what just look at your background and what you've done and ultra endurance you've done and ultra endurance you've done and ultra endurance athletes. These are struggle people for athletes. These are struggle people for athletes. These are struggle people for for unbelievable sense of achievement. for unbelievable sense of achievement. for unbelievable sense of achievement. The trouble is when it comes to meaning The trouble is when it comes to meaning The trouble is when it comes to meaning and especially people under 35 and and especially people under 35 and and especially people under 35 and doubly especially people in higher ed. doubly especially people in higher ed. doubly especially people in higher ed. People who have all of the advantages People who have all of the advantages People who have all of the advantages who shouldn't have meaning problems for who shouldn't have meaning problems for who shouldn't have meaning problems for some reason they did. And sure enough some reason they did. And sure enough some reason they did. And sure enough when you do the survey research and you when you do the survey research and you when you do the survey research and you ask people does your life feel ask people does your life feel ask people does your life feel meaningless? The explosion in the answer meaningless? The explosion in the answer meaningless? The explosion in the answer of yes came exactly in 2008 2009. It of yes came exactly in 2008 2009. It of yes came exactly in 2008 2009. It bumped along. 15% of young people would bumped along. 15% of young people would bumped along. 15% of young people would say I feel like my life is meaningless. say I feel like my life is meaningless. say I feel like my life is meaningless. 2008, boom, it goes up exactly 2008, boom, it goes up exactly 2008, boom, it goes up exactly contemporaneously with the increases in contemporaneously with the increases in contemporaneously with the increases in depression, anxiety. depression, anxiety. depression, anxiety. >> And what is the delta between that >> And what is the delta between that >> And what is the delta between that period of time and now? Cuz now we're in period of time and now? Cuz now we're in period of time and now? Cuz now we're in 2026. 2026. 2026. >> Now it's up even more. So by 2019, that >> Now it's up even more. So by 2019, that >> Now it's up even more. So by 2019, that was before the coronairus epidemic. And was before the coronairus epidemic. And was before the coronairus epidemic. And then it got worse. So everything got then it got worse. So everything got then it got worse. So everything got worse uh when everybody went home and we worse uh when everybody went home and we worse uh when everybody went home and we were even more isolated, even more on were even more isolated, even more on were even more isolated, even more on devices, even more living the way that devices, even more living the way that devices, even more living the way that life had started to change by 2008. was life had started to change by 2008. was life had started to change by 2008. was amplified by the the lockdowns, the the amplified by the the lockdowns, the the amplified by the the lockdowns, the the the reaction to the coronairus epidemic the reaction to the coronairus epidemic the reaction to the coronairus epidemic and then it actually weirdly didn't even and then it actually weirdly didn't even and then it actually weirdly didn't even get better when the coronairus epidemic get better when the coronairus epidemic get better when the coronairus epidemic Wayne. Wayne. Wayne. >> Yeah, you would expect that it would dip >> Yeah, you would expect that it would dip >> Yeah, you would expect that it would dip in the aftermath of that but it in the aftermath of that but it in the aftermath of that but it continued. continued. continued. >> It continued because the behavior >> It continued because the behavior >> It continued because the behavior changed. So all of the the societal changed. So all of the the societal changed. So all of the the societal patterns the way that we're living our patterns the way that we're living our patterns the way that we're living our lives was exacerbated by the coronairus lives was exacerbated by the coronairus lives was exacerbated by the coronairus epidemic turned it metastasized into epidemic turned it metastasized into epidemic turned it metastasized into patterns of behavior that are very very patterns of behavior that are very very patterns of behavior that are very very addictive. And so now in this addictive. And so now in this addictive. And so now in this investigation, I'm saying, okay, this investigation, I'm saying, okay, this investigation, I'm saying, okay, this has got to have this is a psychoggenic has got to have this is a psychoggenic has got to have this is a psychoggenic epidemic, which means it's highly epidemic, which means it's highly epidemic, which means it's highly socially contagious, creates lots of socially contagious, creates lots of socially contagious, creates lots of misery, but has no obvious biological misery, but has no obvious biological misery, but has no obvious biological origin. It's not like fleas on rats that origin. It's not like fleas on rats that origin. It's not like fleas on rats that create the bubanic plague. create the bubanic plague. create the bubanic plague. >> But it turns out there are always >> But it turns out there are always >> But it turns out there are always neurochemical markers. There's always neurochemical markers. There's always neurochemical markers. There's always neuroscience behind the markers of what neuroscience behind the markers of what neuroscience behind the markers of what we see. So looking at actually the we see. So looking at actually the we see. So looking at actually the misery that we find, there's a whole misery that we find, there's a whole misery that we find, there's a whole branch of neuroscience that illuminates branch of neuroscience that illuminates branch of neuroscience that illuminates that how we've been using our brains that how we've been using our brains that how we've been using our brains wrong, especially since 2008, that wrong, especially since 2008, that wrong, especially since 2008, that weirdly makes it harder to understand weirdly makes it harder to understand weirdly makes it harder to understand the meaning of life. the meaning of life. the meaning of life. >> This seems to disproportionately impact >> This seems to disproportionately impact >> This seems to disproportionately impact two cohorts of the population. Uh young two cohorts of the population. Uh young two cohorts of the population. Uh young people uh and stvers. people uh and stvers. people uh and stvers. >> Right. Right. Young. >> Right. Right. Young. >> Right. Right. Young. >> Is that the case? The reason is because >> Is that the case? The reason is because >> Is that the case? The reason is because all of the patterns, the neuroscientific all of the patterns, the neuroscientific all of the patterns, the neuroscientific patterns that we talk about where we use patterns that we talk about where we use patterns that we talk about where we use our brains in a suboptimal way are most our brains in a suboptimal way are most our brains in a suboptimal way are most concentrated for people who don't concentrated for people who don't concentrated for people who don't remember the before times. Rich and remember the before times. Rich and remember the before times. Rich and Arthur remember the before times. And Arthur remember the before times. And Arthur remember the before times. And furthermore, for people who are entirely furthermore, for people who are entirely furthermore, for people who are entirely within the cone of a technologized within the cone of a technologized within the cone of a technologized strive hustle culture is what we see strive hustle culture is what we see strive hustle culture is what we see with people who are highly educated. with people who are highly educated. with people who are highly educated. Highly educated young people are most at Highly educated young people are most at Highly educated young people are most at risk for depression and anxiety because risk for depression and anxiety because risk for depression and anxiety because they're most likely to be using their they're most likely to be using their they're most likely to be using their brains in a way that's suboptimal for brains in a way that's suboptimal for brains in a way that's suboptimal for finding the meaning of life. Why would finding the meaning of life. Why would finding the meaning of life. Why would it not also disproportionately impact it not also disproportionately impact it not also disproportionately impact young people who are not strivical reasons uh aren't seeing a lot of reasons uh aren't seeing a lot of opportunity and are kind of languishing opportunity and are kind of languishing opportunity and are kind of languishing in their lives. in their lives. in their lives. >> This is sort of a different pattern that >> This is sort of a different pattern that >> This is sort of a different pattern that we've kind of always seen. As a matter we've kind of always seen. As a matter we've kind of always seen. As a matter of fact, you know, people who are of fact, you know, people who are of fact, you know, people who are languishing, people who don't have a lot languishing, people who don't have a lot languishing, people who don't have a lot of opportunities, they've always of opportunities, they've always of opportunities, they've always struggled. They've always struggled with struggled. They've always struggled with struggled. They've always struggled with a lot of depression, sort of a a lot of depression, sort of a a lot of depression, sort of a melancholia, and that's just because melancholia, and that's just because melancholia, and that's just because life doesn't offer them very much life doesn't offer them very much life doesn't offer them very much purpose, doesn't offer them very many purpose, doesn't offer them very many purpose, doesn't offer them very many opportunities, per se. But here's a part opportunities, per se. But here's a part opportunities, per se. But here's a part of the population that's really of the population that's really of the population that's really interesting. people who are not interesting. people who are not interesting. people who are not classified as modern strivvers, you classified as modern strivvers, you classified as modern strivvers, you know, not trying to go to the best know, not trying to go to the best know, not trying to go to the best colleges, not trying to get the most colleges, not trying to get the most colleges, not trying to get the most cutting edge jobs, people who will come cutting edge jobs, people who will come cutting edge jobs, people who will come out of high school and go into the out of high school and go into the out of high school and go into the trades, they're in way less danger for trades, they're in way less danger for trades, they're in way less danger for depression and anxiety. depression and anxiety. depression and anxiety. >> And it's interesting because I I >> And it's interesting because I I >> And it's interesting because I I wouldn't have known this. You know, I wouldn't have known this. You know, I wouldn't have known this. You know, I come from a family of college come from a family of college come from a family of college professors. My dad was a professor, his professors. My dad was a professor, his professors. My dad was a professor, his dad was a professor, and I was the first dad was a professor, and I was the first dad was a professor, and I was the first generation not to get a PhD until I got generation not to get a PhD until I got generation not to get a PhD until I got sucked into the vortex and got a PhD in sucked into the vortex and got a PhD in sucked into the vortex and got a PhD in my 30s. But not all of my kids did that. my 30s. But not all of my kids did that. my 30s. But not all of my kids did that. And and I had, you know, one of my sons And and I had, you know, one of my sons And and I had, you know, one of my sons came out of high school, worked on a came out of high school, worked on a came out of high school, worked on a farm, and then went into the Marine farm, and then went into the Marine farm, and then went into the Marine Corps, was a scout sniper in the Marine Corps, was a scout sniper in the Marine Corps, was a scout sniper in the Marine Corps near here at Camp Pendleton, Corps near here at Camp Pendleton, Corps near here at Camp Pendleton, California. California. California. >> And I got to know all of his friends >> And I got to know all of his friends >> And I got to know all of his friends there, you know, enlisted Marines in there, you know, enlisted Marines in there, you know, enlisted Marines in highly kinetic warfighting jobs. Happy. highly kinetic warfighting jobs. Happy. highly kinetic warfighting jobs. Happy. They have tons of meaning in their They have tons of meaning in their They have tons of meaning in their lives. They weren't struggling. I mean, lives. They weren't struggling. I mean, lives. They weren't struggling. I mean, they're struggling with, you know, they're struggling with, you know, they're struggling with, you know, drinking too much drinking too much drinking too much >> because they're Marines, but >> because they're Marines, but >> because they're Marines, but >> but man, they they had it going on. and >> but man, they they had it going on. and >> but man, they they had it going on. and they were way happier than the people they were way happier than the people they were way happier than the people that I saw that I was dealing with the that I saw that I was dealing with the that I saw that I was dealing with the young people that I was I was coming young people that I was I was coming young people that I was I was coming across graduate students and across graduate students and across graduate students and undergraduates in in colleges. So what undergraduates in in colleges. So what undergraduates in in colleges. So what you find is that there was something you find is that there was something you find is that there was something about this technologized life the the about this technologized life the the about this technologized life the the life in the simulation life in the simulation life in the simulation >> which is how a lot of them talk about it >> which is how a lot of them talk about it >> which is how a lot of them talk about it that was foreclosing the opportunities that was foreclosing the opportunities that was foreclosing the opportunities for finding meaning and that's where the for finding meaning and that's where the for finding meaning and that's where the investigation took me. are started to investigation took me. are started to investigation took me. are started to look at what neuroscientists were saying look at what neuroscientists were saying look at what neuroscientists were saying about where the meaning of life is found about where the meaning of life is found about where the meaning of life is found neurohysiologically neurohysiologically neurohysiologically and why we're not able to do that and why we're not able to do that and why we're not able to do that anymore and the people who are most at anymore and the people who are most at anymore and the people who are most at risk. And then most importantly, what do risk. And then most importantly, what do risk. And then most importantly, what do you do? you do? you do? >> Yeah. The big differentiator is the >> Yeah. The big differentiator is the >> Yeah. The big differentiator is the advent of all of these technologies that advent of all of these technologies that advent of all of these technologies that have essentially rewired our brains and have essentially rewired our brains and have essentially rewired our brains and completely changed our relationship with completely changed our relationship with completely changed our relationship with ourselves, with other people, and with ourselves, with other people, and with ourselves, with other people, and with the world. And this is really the the world. And this is really the the world. And this is really the essential driver of this crisis. essential driver of this crisis. essential driver of this crisis. >> Yes, that's exactly right. And this gets >> Yes, that's exactly right. And this gets >> Yes, that's exactly right. And this gets back to the work of there's a great back to the work of there's a great back to the work of there's a great neuroscientist. Have you ever se had um neuroscientist. Have you ever se had um neuroscientist. Have you ever se had um Ian McIllchrist on your show? Ian McIllchrist on your show? Ian McIllchrist on your show? >> He's at Oxford and he's the most Oxford >> He's at Oxford and he's the most Oxford >> He's at Oxford and he's the most Oxford guy ever. I mean he you know he wears a guy ever. I mean he you know he wears a guy ever. I mean he you know he wears a lot of tweed and and he's a he's great lot of tweed and and he's a he's great lot of tweed and and he's a he's great he's one of the great intellectuals of he's one of the great intellectuals of he's one of the great intellectuals of our time and he he has this he brought our time and he he has this he brought our time and he he has this he brought back the idea of hemispheric back the idea of hemispheric back the idea of hemispheric lateralization which is a fancy way of lateralization which is a fancy way of lateralization which is a fancy way of saying that the two sides of the brain saying that the two sides of the brain saying that the two sides of the brain do different things. When you and I were do different things. When you and I were do different things. When you and I were kids, we talked about artsy people and kids, we talked about artsy people and kids, we talked about artsy people and analytical people, right brain, left analytical people, right brain, left analytical people, right brain, left brain. That actually doesn't hold up. brain. That actually doesn't hold up. brain. That actually doesn't hold up. And so that was largely abandoned. But And so that was largely abandoned. But And so that was largely abandoned. But the two sides of the brain, they do ask the two sides of the brain, they do ask the two sides of the brain, they do ask different kinds of questions and govern different kinds of questions and govern different kinds of questions and govern different areas of life. The left side different areas of life. The left side different areas of life. The left side of the brain governs the complicated of the brain governs the complicated of the brain governs the complicated problems of life. The howto and what problems of life. The howto and what problems of life. The howto and what question, the technological stuff, the question, the technological stuff, the question, the technological stuff, the answers to the things that you know, the answers to the things that you know, the answers to the things that you know, the the problems that we're trying to solve. the problems that we're trying to solve. the problems that we're trying to solve. You know, you want to write a piece of You know, you want to write a piece of You know, you want to write a piece of software or find your way from, you software or find your way from, you software or find your way from, you know, here to LA, you use the left side know, here to LA, you use the left side know, here to LA, you use the left side of your brain. The right side of the of your brain. The right side of the of your brain. The right side of the brain governs why questions, mystery, brain governs why questions, mystery, brain governs why questions, mystery, meaning, the things that we really care meaning, the things that we really care meaning, the things that we really care about. So to get along from day to day about. So to get along from day to day about. So to get along from day to day today, to make a bunch of money, you today, to make a bunch of money, you today, to make a bunch of money, you need the left side of your brain up and need the left side of your brain up and need the left side of your brain up and working. But to understand why you'd working. But to understand why you'd working. But to understand why you'd even want to do any of that, that's the even want to do any of that, that's the even want to do any of that, that's the right side of your brain. And and you right side of your brain. And and you right side of your brain. And and you know, so I'm delighted that I I know know, so I'm delighted that I I know know, so I'm delighted that I I know your wife and who's on the show your wife and who's on the show your wife and who's on the show sometimes. And Julie's a a rightb brain sometimes. And Julie's a a rightb brain sometimes. And Julie's a a rightb brain adept. adept. adept. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> she's about mystery and meaning. She's >> she's about mystery and meaning. She's >> she's about mystery and meaning. She's all about mystery and meaning. Every all about mystery and meaning. Every all about mystery and meaning. Every conversation is about mystery and conversation is about mystery and conversation is about mystery and meaning. And some people are really meaning. And some people are really meaning. And some people are really really strong at that. And my guess is really strong at that. And my guess is really strong at that. And my guess is she's not pasted to her phone all day she's not pasted to her phone all day she's not pasted to her phone all day long because if you want to miss the long because if you want to miss the long because if you want to miss the meaning of your life, spend all day meaning of your life, spend all day meaning of your life, spend all day online. What that does is it forces you online. What that does is it forces you online. What that does is it forces you into left brain activity. If if the only into left brain activity. If if the only into left brain activity. If if the only questions you ever ask are being typed questions you ever ask are being typed questions you ever ask are being typed into a Google search bar, those are not into a Google search bar, those are not into a Google search bar, those are not meaning questions. Those are how and meaning questions. Those are how and meaning questions. Those are how and what questions. Chad GPT can't ask or what questions. Chad GPT can't ask or what questions. Chad GPT can't ask or can't give you any information about can't give you any information about can't give you any information about questions that really matter for the questions that really matter for the questions that really matter for the meaning of your life. And that's the meaning of your life. And that's the meaning of your life. And that's the world that we're inhabiting. Here's world that we're inhabiting. Here's world that we're inhabiting. Here's where the penny dropped for me, Rich. where the penny dropped for me, Rich. where the penny dropped for me, Rich. So, I started, you know, when I see the So, I started, you know, when I see the So, I started, you know, when I see the data and I'm on to something, I I I know data and I'm on to something, I I I know data and I'm on to something, I I I know where I'm going, but I start talking to where I'm going, but I start talking to where I'm going, but I start talking to people, interviewing people, and and people, interviewing people, and and people, interviewing people, and and listening to the words that keep showing listening to the words that keep showing listening to the words that keep showing up again and again and again and again up again and again and again and again up again and again and again and again and again, cuz that's how you actually and again, cuz that's how you actually and again, cuz that's how you actually learn something. When you and I were in learn something. When you and I were in learn something. When you and I were in the Himalayas and when we were with the the Himalayas and when we were with the the Himalayas and when we were with the Daly Lama and and he you noticed that he Daly Lama and and he you noticed that he Daly Lama and and he you noticed that he would keep saying a word again and again would keep saying a word again and again would keep saying a word again and again and again and again. and again and again. and again and again. >> Yeah, I happen to notice that. >> Yeah, I happen to notice that. >> Yeah, I happen to notice that. >> Yeah. And that's because that's the word >> Yeah. And that's because that's the word >> Yeah. And that's because that's the word that you need to hear. that's the word that you need to hear. that's the word that you need to hear. that's the word that that's on your heart that you that that's on your heart that you that that's on your heart that you actually need to become conscious of. actually need to become conscious of. actually need to become conscious of. And he knows that because he's super And he knows that because he's super And he knows that because he's super adept. When you're listening to young adept. When you're listening to young adept. When you're listening to young people talking about their misery, people talking about their misery, people talking about their misery, they'll start talking about it again and they'll start talking about it again and they'll start talking about it again and again. They'll keep talking about, "I again. They'll keep talking about, "I again. They'll keep talking about, "I don't know what I'm meant to do. My life don't know what I'm meant to do. My life don't know what I'm meant to do. My life feels meaningless," etc. But here's feels meaningless," etc. But here's feels meaningless," etc. But here's here's actually how I started to here's actually how I started to here's actually how I started to understand how technology feeds into all understand how technology feeds into all understand how technology feeds into all of this. Young people will say again and of this. Young people will say again and of this. Young people will say again and again, life doesn't feel real. It again, life doesn't feel real. It again, life doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel real. I feel like I'm I'm doesn't feel real. I feel like I'm I'm doesn't feel real. I feel like I'm I'm I'm in the matrix. I'm living in a I'm in the matrix. I'm living in a I'm in the matrix. I'm living in a simulation. And when they talk about simulation. And when they talk about simulation. And when they talk about their lives, their lives, their lives, >> dude, it's a simulation. I mean, you get >> dude, it's a simulation. I mean, you get >> dude, it's a simulation. I mean, you get up and the first thing you do is you up and the first thing you do is you up and the first thing you do is you look at your phone cuz that's your alarm look at your phone cuz that's your alarm look at your phone cuz that's your alarm clock. And then and you get up and you clock. And then and you get up and you clock. And then and you get up and you go to work, which is on Zoom, and then go to work, which is on Zoom, and then go to work, which is on Zoom, and then you date on the app and your friends are you date on the app and your friends are you date on the app and your friends are on socials and and your sense of on socials and and your sense of on socials and and your sense of accomplishment might come from gaming. accomplishment might come from gaming. accomplishment might come from gaming. And and guess what? That's a simulated And and guess what? That's a simulated And and guess what? That's a simulated life. That's a that's a that's a life. That's a that's a that's a life. That's a that's a that's a leftbrain similacrim leftbrain similacrim leftbrain similacrim for a real life fully alive. And the one for a real life fully alive. And the one for a real life fully alive. And the one thing you can't ever simulate is the thing you can't ever simulate is the thing you can't ever simulate is the meaning of your life. We're already in meaning of your life. We're already in meaning of your life. We're already in the matrix. The matrix matrix is here. the matrix. The matrix matrix is here. the matrix. The matrix matrix is here. Our lives are being increasingly Our lives are being increasingly Our lives are being increasingly controlled by the algorithmic gods. Uh controlled by the algorithmic gods. Uh controlled by the algorithmic gods. Uh and we spend our lives staring at and we spend our lives staring at and we spend our lives staring at devices with intermittent real life devices with intermittent real life devices with intermittent real life experiences which are quickly and more experiences which are quickly and more experiences which are quickly and more rapidly dwindling and fewer and far rapidly dwindling and fewer and far rapidly dwindling and fewer and far between. between. between. >> The average child under 12 spends >> The average child under 12 spends >> The average child under 12 spends between four and seven minutes in nature between four and seven minutes in nature between four and seven minutes in nature a day and between four and seven hours a a day and between four and seven hours a a day and between four and seven hours a day on the screen. And the reason why day on the screen. And the reason why day on the screen. And the reason why that's salient in this conversation is that's salient in this conversation is that's salient in this conversation is because when you're engaging with life because when you're engaging with life because when you're engaging with life in that way, you are depriving yourself in that way, you are depriving yourself in that way, you are depriving yourself from being able to engage with your from being able to engage with your from being able to engage with your right brain. right brain. right brain. >> Mhm. That's correct. >> Mhm. That's correct. >> Mhm. That's correct. >> You're depriving your your yourself of >> You're depriving your your yourself of >> You're depriving your your yourself of the opportunity, the space, the the opportunity, the space, the the opportunity, the space, the bandwidth, the boredom uh to reflect on bandwidth, the boredom uh to reflect on bandwidth, the boredom uh to reflect on the why and the mysterious questions of the why and the mysterious questions of the why and the mysterious questions of life. life. life. >> To sit with the questions that actually >> To sit with the questions that actually >> To sit with the questions that actually matter the most. You're distracting matter the most. You're distracting matter the most. You're distracting yourself from, as they say, doing the yourself from, as they say, doing the yourself from, as they say, doing the work, which you automatically will do. work, which you automatically will do. work, which you automatically will do. Your brain is designed for you to think Your brain is designed for you to think Your brain is designed for you to think about the meaning of life. That's the about the meaning of life. That's the about the meaning of life. That's the reason that you know, great granddad reason that you know, great granddad reason that you know, great granddad roll didn't come home and say to his roll didn't come home and say to his roll didn't come home and say to his wife, "Honey, I had a panic attack wife, "Honey, I had a panic attack wife, "Honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today." No, cuz his behind the mule today." No, cuz his behind the mule today." No, cuz his brain was working the way it was brain was working the way it was brain was working the way it was supposed to. But now I can open up, you supposed to. But now I can open up, you supposed to. But now I can open up, you know, choose your social media app and I know, choose your social media app and I know, choose your social media app and I can watch short form videos of people can watch short form videos of people can watch short form videos of people telling me what the meaning of life is. telling me what the meaning of life is. telling me what the meaning of life is. And so I've got that sorted And so I've got that sorted And so I've got that sorted >> sort of so so we think. And here's the >> sort of so so we think. And here's the >> sort of so so we think. And here's the irony of it. irony of it. irony of it. >> Um, your great-grandfather, >> Um, your great-grandfather, >> Um, your great-grandfather, his life moment to moment was pretty his life moment to moment was pretty his life moment to moment was pretty boring, but his life wasn't boring at boring, but his life wasn't boring at boring, but his life wasn't boring at all. And if you're scrolling and looking all. And if you're scrolling and looking all. And if you're scrolling and looking at funny reels and online because the at funny reels and online because the at funny reels and online because the light is taking too long to change and light is taking too long to change and light is taking too long to change and you're always distracted, you're never you're always distracted, you're never you're always distracted, you're never bored moment to moment, but your life is bored moment to moment, but your life is bored moment to moment, but your life is unbelievably boring. It's boring at the unbelievably boring. It's boring at the unbelievably boring. It's boring at the meta level. Why? Because a boring life meta level. Why? Because a boring life meta level. Why? Because a boring life is bereft of a sense of meaning. And an is bereft of a sense of meaning. And an is bereft of a sense of meaning. And an interesting life is full of meaning not interesting life is full of meaning not interesting life is full of meaning not withstanding the boredom that you endure withstanding the boredom that you endure withstanding the boredom that you endure from moment to moment. from moment to moment. from moment to moment. >> That's the paradox. So the left brain, >> That's the paradox. So the left brain, >> That's the paradox. So the left brain, you call it the the the emissary. It's you call it the the the emissary. It's you call it the the the emissary. It's all about the how and the what, right? all about the how and the what, right? all about the how and the what, right? It's fact-based. This is what AI is very It's fact-based. This is what AI is very It's fact-based. This is what AI is very good at, right? good at, right? good at, right? >> Um what AI is incapable of is engaging >> Um what AI is incapable of is engaging >> Um what AI is incapable of is engaging uh in the way that the right brain does, uh in the way that the right brain does, uh in the way that the right brain does, which you call the master, um or you which you call the master, um or you which you call the master, um or you describe in the book as the master. And describe in the book as the master. And describe in the book as the master. And there's a distinction here that I think there's a distinction here that I think there's a distinction here that I think is super interesting. The left brain is is super interesting. The left brain is is super interesting. The left brain is very good at solving complicated very good at solving complicated very good at solving complicated problems and the right brain is the problems and the right brain is the problems and the right brain is the master of solving or at least conjuring master of solving or at least conjuring master of solving or at least conjuring and asking the complex problems. and asking the complex problems. and asking the complex problems. >> It sounds like >> It sounds like >> It sounds like >> there's this differentiation between >> there's this differentiation between >> there's this differentiation between complicated and complex. complicated and complex. complicated and complex. >> Right. Right. And and that sounds like a >> Right. Right. And and that sounds like a >> Right. Right. And and that sounds like a like a real technical difference and and like a real technical difference and and like a real technical difference and and in point of fact that language comes in point of fact that language comes in point of fact that language comes from mathematics. So my father was a from mathematics. So my father was a from mathematics. So my father was a mathematician and he would talk about mathematician and he would talk about mathematician and he would talk about the difference between complicated and the difference between complicated and the difference between complicated and complex problems. It turns out it's it's complex problems. It turns out it's it's complex problems. It turns out it's it's pretty simple this distinction. pretty simple this distinction. pretty simple this distinction. Complicated problems are very hard to Complicated problems are very hard to Complicated problems are very hard to solve, but once you solve them, they're solve, but once you solve them, they're solve, but once you solve them, they're solved. Designing a jet engine was solved. Designing a jet engine was solved. Designing a jet engine was unbelievably complicated, really hard to unbelievably complicated, really hard to unbelievably complicated, really hard to do. But now we stamp out jet engines and do. But now we stamp out jet engines and do. But now we stamp out jet engines and the planes never crash. It's the planes never crash. It's the planes never crash. It's unbelievable. I mean, making a toaster unbelievable. I mean, making a toaster unbelievable. I mean, making a toaster is complicated. Lots of things are is complicated. Lots of things are is complicated. Lots of things are complicated. And that's what we train complicated. And that's what we train complicated. And that's what we train people to do in school today. That's people to do in school today. That's people to do in school today. That's what the hustle and grind culture does what the hustle and grind culture does what the hustle and grind culture does is it trains you to do that. That's the is it trains you to do that. That's the is it trains you to do that. That's the questions that where you get answers questions that where you get answers questions that where you get answers from chat GBD that actually make a lot from chat GBD that actually make a lot from chat GBD that actually make a lot of sense are complicated questions. of sense are complicated questions. of sense are complicated questions. Answers to complicated problems. The Answers to complicated problems. The Answers to complicated problems. The complex parts of life, the right complex parts of life, the right complex parts of life, the right hemisphere parts of life are super easy hemisphere parts of life are super easy hemisphere parts of life are super easy to understand and impossible to solve. to understand and impossible to solve. to understand and impossible to solve. So your marriage to Julie is complex, So your marriage to Julie is complex, So your marriage to Julie is complex, not complicated. You'll you'll sorry, not complicated. You'll you'll sorry, not complicated. You'll you'll sorry, you'll never solve it. you'll never solve it. you'll never solve it. >> There's there isn't a solution to it. >> There's there isn't a solution to it. >> There's there isn't a solution to it. It's not an equation. It's not an equation. It's not an equation. >> You live with it. I mean, I've been >> You live with it. I mean, I've been >> You live with it. I mean, I've been married 34 years and and I'm super in married 34 years and and I'm super in married 34 years and and I'm super in love with Esther and I will be gazing love with Esther and I will be gazing love with Esther and I will be gazing into her eyes as I take my dying breath into her eyes as I take my dying breath into her eyes as I take my dying breath and I will never solve that problem. I and I will never solve that problem. I and I will never solve that problem. I never will. I mean, we'll probably have never will. I mean, we'll probably have never will. I mean, we'll probably have an argument when I get back today. We an argument when I get back today. We an argument when I get back today. We probably will about something stupid. probably will about something stupid. probably will about something stupid. It's like decades and decades and we It's like decades and decades and we It's like decades and decades and we have children. We have grandchildren and have children. We have grandchildren and have children. We have grandchildren and and we're going to have lots of and we're going to have lots of and we're going to have lots of grandchildren and and our life is full grandchildren and and our life is full grandchildren and and our life is full of abundance and love and we worship God of abundance and love and we worship God of abundance and love and we worship God together and we're still going to argue together and we're still going to argue together and we're still going to argue over the who took out the recycling. over the who took out the recycling. over the who took out the recycling. It's so impossible to solve. And yet It's so impossible to solve. And yet It's so impossible to solve. And yet that's why I love my marriage. You know, that's why I love my marriage. You know, that's why I love my marriage. You know, I I like to watch football because it's I I like to watch football because it's I I like to watch football because it's complex, not complicated. I I it's very complex, not complicated. I I it's very complex, not complicated. I I it's very easy to understand, but I know what's easy to understand, but I know what's easy to understand, but I know what's going to happen and there's no computer going to happen and there's no computer going to happen and there's no computer that can simulate it, which is why it's that can simulate it, which is why it's that can simulate it, which is why it's exciting to watch. That's why sports is exciting to watch. That's why sports is exciting to watch. That's why sports is awesome because it's a complex thing. awesome because it's a complex thing. awesome because it's a complex thing. You love your cat because your cat is You love your cat because your cat is You love your cat because your cat is complex. You don't love your toaster complex. You don't love your toaster complex. You don't love your toaster because your toaster is complicated. And because your toaster is complicated. And because your toaster is complicated. And this is a world that's telling us that this is a world that's telling us that this is a world that's telling us that all the complex things have a substitute all the complex things have a substitute all the complex things have a substitute that are complicated. The world says, that are complicated. The world says, that are complicated. The world says, "You want to date? That's really "You want to date? That's really "You want to date? That's really complex. It's kind of scary and kind of complex. It's kind of scary and kind of complex. It's kind of scary and kind of dangerous. I give I tell you what, I'm dangerous. I give I tell you what, I'm dangerous. I give I tell you what, I'm going to solve that problem for you with going to solve that problem for you with going to solve that problem for you with this complicated algorithm. this complicated algorithm. this complicated algorithm. >> You you want to know people and have >> You you want to know people and have >> You you want to know people and have friends cuz you're lonely? Oh, I got a friends cuz you're lonely? Oh, I got a friends cuz you're lonely? Oh, I got a complicated way to solve that problem. complicated way to solve that problem. complicated way to solve that problem. problem is called social media. Yeah, problem is called social media. Yeah, problem is called social media. Yeah, you don't it's it's it's complex finding you don't it's it's it's complex finding you don't it's it's it's complex finding a job and you know going to work and a job and you know going to work and a job and you know going to work and interacting with colleagues. Here's the interacting with colleagues. Here's the interacting with colleagues. Here's the complicated curve fit. It's zoom work at complicated curve fit. It's zoom work at complicated curve fit. It's zoom work at a distance. It's all complicated a distance. It's all complicated a distance. It's all complicated solutions to complex problems and that's solutions to complex problems and that's solutions to complex problems and that's bereft of meaning. bereft of meaning. bereft of meaning. >> The most complex problem being what is >> The most complex problem being what is >> The most complex problem being what is the meaning of life? What happens to us the meaning of life? What happens to us the meaning of life? What happens to us after we die? What is God? You know, you after we die? What is God? You know, you after we die? What is God? You know, you know what is the what you know what is know what is the what you know what is know what is the what you know what is beyond the universe? all of these beyond the universe? all of these beyond the universe? all of these unanswerable questions that conjure the unanswerable questions that conjure the unanswerable questions that conjure the ineffable. And the the left brain wants ineffable. And the the left brain wants ineffable. And the the left brain wants to find answers to all of those to find answers to all of those to find answers to all of those questions. And on some level, so does questions. And on some level, so does questions. And on some level, so does the right brain, but the right brain is the right brain, but the right brain is the right brain, but the right brain is is engaging with the mystery of it. It's is engaging with the mystery of it. It's is engaging with the mystery of it. It's not results driven. It's not about not results driven. It's not about not results driven. It's not about finding the answer. It's more about like finding the answer. It's more about like finding the answer. It's more about like marinating in the question. marinating in the question. marinating in the question. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> It reminds me of do you remember this? >> It reminds me of do you remember this? >> It reminds me of do you remember this? Uh it was one of the early TED talks Uh it was one of the early TED talks Uh it was one of the early TED talks that became viral that um JJ Abrams made that became viral that um JJ Abrams made that became viral that um JJ Abrams made the the filmmaker and it was called the the the filmmaker and it was called the the the filmmaker and it was called the mystery box and he was talking about his mystery box and he was talking about his mystery box and he was talking about his philosophy of storytelling and how he philosophy of storytelling and how he philosophy of storytelling and how he you know he created Lost like these you you know he created Lost like these you you know he created Lost like these you know that hit show um and he understands know that hit show um and he understands know that hit show um and he understands that the anticipation of of the audience that the anticipation of of the audience that the anticipation of of the audience is to want to know like what's going on is to want to know like what's going on is to want to know like what's going on on the island and you know like what you on the island and you know like what you on the island and you know like what you know what happened to these people uh know what happened to these people uh know what happened to these people uh but answering that question is always but answering that question is always but answering that question is always unsatisfying. It's the anticipation of unsatisfying. It's the anticipation of unsatisfying. It's the anticipation of the answer or it's the journey of just the answer or it's the journey of just the answer or it's the journey of just being in that question that is so being in that question that is so being in that question that is so engaging for an audience. And I think engaging for an audience. And I think engaging for an audience. And I think the same applies to this idea of complex the same applies to this idea of complex the same applies to this idea of complex questions and answers questions and answers questions and answers >> completely. And you know I people ask me >> completely. And you know I people ask me >> completely. And you know I people ask me a lot because I'm you know I'm a I'm a a lot because I'm you know I'm a I'm a a lot because I'm you know I'm a I'm a religious person and and people ask well religious person and and people ask well religious person and and people ask well how do you get into it? How do you get how do you get into it? How do you get how do you get into it? How do you get into it? And you know I live in this into it? And you know I live in this into it? And you know I live in this intellectual world and you say well intellectual world and you say well intellectual world and you say well let's you know get a bunch of books on let's you know get a bunch of books on let's you know get a bunch of books on apologetics. apologetics or are apologetics. apologetics or are apologetics. apologetics or are intellectual or intellectual arguments intellectual or intellectual arguments intellectual or intellectual arguments for the existence of God, for example. for the existence of God, for example. for the existence of God, for example. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because that's a leftbrain way to understand a that's a leftbrain way to understand a that's a leftbrain way to understand a rightbrain problem. The way to do it is rightbrain problem. The way to do it is rightbrain problem. The way to do it is to go away and pray, to go walk a to go away and pray, to go walk a to go away and pray, to go walk a pilgrimage, to pray your rosary, to go pilgrimage, to pray your rosary, to go pilgrimage, to pray your rosary, to go sit in meditation. You're you're not sit in meditation. You're you're not sit in meditation. You're you're not going to solve the problem. going to solve the problem. going to solve the problem. or just sit with a Zen Cohen or you know or just sit with a Zen Cohen or you know or just sit with a Zen Cohen or you know the the the yin and yang the you know the the the yin and yang the you know the the the yin and yang the you know the these these dualities that are the these these dualities that are the these these dualities that are opposing forces that are opposing forces that are opposing forces that are >> both true and false at the same time. >> both true and false at the same time. >> both true and false at the same time. >> That's exactly right. And the Cohen is a >> That's exactly right. And the Cohen is a >> That's exactly right. And the Cohen is a perfect example of that. Every religious perfect example of that. Every religious perfect example of that. Every religious and philosophical tradition is based on and philosophical tradition is based on and philosophical tradition is based on questions. And here's the weird thing questions. And here's the weird thing questions. And here's the weird thing about questions that don't have answers. about questions that don't have answers. about questions that don't have answers. Do you remember when we were kids? You Do you remember when we were kids? You Do you remember when we were kids? You remember Coco the gorilla? remember Coco the gorilla? remember Coco the gorilla? >> Yeah. You remember the cocoa the gorilla >> Yeah. You remember the cocoa the gorilla >> Yeah. You remember the cocoa the gorilla was up there in Northern California who was up there in Northern California who was up there in Northern California who who learned a thousand words. So Penny who learned a thousand words. So Penny who learned a thousand words. So Penny Patterson, her pimeatlogist Patterson, her pimeatlogist Patterson, her pimeatlogist trainer, trained Koko to sign a thousand trainer, trained Koko to sign a thousand trainer, trained Koko to sign a thousand words. And she answered all these words. And she answered all these words. And she answered all these questions. People said, "Ah, it's it's questions. People said, "Ah, it's it's questions. People said, "Ah, it's it's blurring the line between primates and blurring the line between primates and blurring the line between primates and non and and human beings and homo non and and human beings and homo non and and human beings and homo sapiens." Aha. No, it wasn't because sapiens." Aha. No, it wasn't because sapiens." Aha. No, it wasn't because that's the same mistake as saying that that's the same mistake as saying that that's the same mistake as saying that AI is blurring the the boundaries AI is blurring the the boundaries AI is blurring the the boundaries between machines and humans. does not between machines and humans. does not between machines and humans. does not because all AI can do is answer because all AI can do is answer because all AI can do is answer questions. Koko the gorilla never asked questions. Koko the gorilla never asked questions. Koko the gorilla never asked a single question ever in her entire a single question ever in her entire a single question ever in her entire life. No non-human animal has ever asked life. No non-human animal has ever asked life. No non-human animal has ever asked a question. And and the only thing that a question. And and the only thing that a question. And and the only thing that chat you can say to chat GPT ask me five chat you can say to chat GPT ask me five chat you can say to chat GPT ask me five questions. But it's just generating questions. But it's just generating questions. But it's just generating things on the basis of knowledge. That's things on the basis of knowledge. That's things on the basis of knowledge. That's extent. extent. extent. The essence of being alive is asking The essence of being alive is asking The essence of being alive is asking questions. Why questions with no questions. Why questions with no questions. Why questions with no answers? And that's what Zen coins are answers? And that's what Zen coins are answers? And that's what Zen coins are really supposed to do. They're supposed really supposed to do. They're supposed really supposed to do. They're supposed to get you to exercise the right to get you to exercise the right to get you to exercise the right hemisphere of your brain to find hemisphere of your brain to find hemisphere of your brain to find meaning. meaning. meaning. >> You know, it's the all of the religious >> You know, it's the all of the religious >> You know, it's the all of the religious traditions actually do this is to and traditions actually do this is to and traditions actually do this is to and you know, I I'll challenge my students you know, I I'll challenge my students you know, I I'll challenge my students to ask two questions to find meaning. to ask two questions to find meaning. to ask two questions to find meaning. Just to go away and think about why am I Just to go away and think about why am I Just to go away and think about why am I alive and for what would I give my life? alive and for what would I give my life? alive and for what would I give my life? I you know I challenge anybody to put I you know I challenge anybody to put I you know I challenge anybody to put those questions in the chat GBD. You'll those questions in the chat GBD. You'll those questions in the chat GBD. You'll get nonsense back. You'll get hilarious get nonsense back. You'll get hilarious get nonsense back. You'll get hilarious garbage back if you ask hey Google you garbage back if you ask hey Google you garbage back if you ask hey Google you know what would I give my life for? know what would I give my life for? know what would I give my life for? Well, that's a very smart question that Well, that's a very smart question that Well, that's a very smart question that you ask. you ask. you ask. It's nothing. And you know, when you It's nothing. And you know, when you It's nothing. And you know, when you were at Stanford in what was it the late were at Stanford in what was it the late were at Stanford in what was it the late 80 early 90s, right? Late late ' 80s, 80 early 90s, right? Late late ' 80s, 80 early 90s, right? Late late ' 80s, early and um early and um early and um >> when you came back from a party at on >> when you came back from a party at on >> when you came back from a party at on Saturday night at midnight or 1 or Saturday night at midnight or 1 or Saturday night at midnight or 1 or something like that and you'd hang out something like that and you'd hang out something like that and you'd hang out with your friends and you'd have those with your friends and you'd have those with your friends and you'd have those really pretentious conversations in the really pretentious conversations in the really pretentious conversations in the dorm. dorm. dorm. >> That was one of the most important >> That was one of the most important >> That was one of the most important things you did in college actually. And things you did in college actually. And things you did in college actually. And now, of course, people aren't doing now, of course, people aren't doing now, of course, people aren't doing that. They're watching funny reels and that. They're watching funny reels and that. They're watching funny reels and videos and they're looking at their videos and they're looking at their videos and they're looking at their phones. And the result of it is that phones. And the result of it is that phones. And the result of it is that they're not exercising the right side of they're not exercising the right side of they're not exercising the right side of their brains because the why questions their brains because the why questions their brains because the why questions are just going unasked. are just going unasked. are just going unasked. >> Mhm. It keeps them stuck in that doom >> Mhm. It keeps them stuck in that doom >> Mhm. It keeps them stuck in that doom loop that you talk about. Yeah. loop that you talk about. Yeah. loop that you talk about. Yeah. >> Without an escape hatch. >> Without an escape hatch. >> Without an escape hatch. >> Yeah. The doom loop is is a really >> Yeah. The doom loop is is a really >> Yeah. The doom loop is is a really common thing for all of us who've been common thing for all of us who've been common thing for all of us who've been interested in and involved in in in interested in and involved in in in interested in and involved in in in addiction and the pathologies of addiction and the pathologies of addiction and the pathologies of addiction. They all involve a doom loop addiction. They all involve a doom loop addiction. They all involve a doom loop where they're all based on something where they're all based on something where they're all based on something that's iatrogenic, which is to say that that's iatrogenic, which is to say that that's iatrogenic, which is to say that something that that is supposed to help something that that is supposed to help something that that is supposed to help you and winds up making your life worse. you and winds up making your life worse. you and winds up making your life worse. So, for example, alcohol abuse is funny So, for example, alcohol abuse is funny So, for example, alcohol abuse is funny because alcohol abuse is most dangerous because alcohol abuse is most dangerous because alcohol abuse is most dangerous in the lives of people who are either in the lives of people who are either in the lives of people who are either bored or anxious or both because booze bored or anxious or both because booze bored or anxious or both because booze is great for treating boredom and is great for treating boredom and is great for treating boredom and anxiety. The problem is that boredom and anxiety. The problem is that boredom and anxiety. The problem is that boredom and anxiety come back with a vengeance. And anxiety come back with a vengeance. And anxiety come back with a vengeance. And so what solves your problem makes it so what solves your problem makes it so what solves your problem makes it where that's like that's a famous Homer where that's like that's a famous Homer where that's like that's a famous Homer Simpson line to alcohol the the cause of Simpson line to alcohol the the cause of Simpson line to alcohol the the cause of and solution to all of life's problems and solution to all of life's problems and solution to all of life's problems and and and that gets you into the Zoom and and and that gets you into the Zoom and and and that gets you into the Zoom loop. I drink cuz I'm anxious and loop. I drink cuz I'm anxious and loop. I drink cuz I'm anxious and tomorrow I'm more anxious so I drink tomorrow I'm more anxious so I drink tomorrow I'm more anxious so I drink more and you escalate etc etc etc. All more and you escalate etc etc etc. All more and you escalate etc etc etc. All addictive behavior works in that way. addictive behavior works in that way. addictive behavior works in that way. And the same thing is true with the way And the same thing is true with the way And the same thing is true with the way that we use technology. The way that we that we use technology. The way that we that we use technology. The way that we get into these complicated solutions to get into these complicated solutions to get into these complicated solutions to life's complex problems where I I'm I'm life's complex problems where I I'm I'm life's complex problems where I I'm I'm I want distraction. I'm feeling lonely I want distraction. I'm feeling lonely I want distraction. I'm feeling lonely and depressed and anxious. Um, I'm bored and depressed and anxious. Um, I'm bored and depressed and anxious. Um, I'm bored and so I look at my phone or I I I and so I look at my phone or I I I and so I look at my phone or I I I self-administer. I self soothe with self-administer. I self soothe with self-administer. I self soothe with technology which makes it worse and so I technology which makes it worse and so I technology which makes it worse and so I have to solve the problem more. have to solve the problem more. have to solve the problem more. Ultimately, the way that you get out of Ultimately, the way that you get out of Ultimately, the way that you get out of a doom loop of any sort of addiction is a doom loop of any sort of addiction is a doom loop of any sort of addiction is you got to clip the clip it. You got to you got to clip the clip it. You got to you got to clip the clip it. You got to recognize it and you have to say recognize it and you have to say recognize it and you have to say something's got to give. something's got to give. something's got to give. How do you do that in your own life How do you do that in your own life How do you do that in your own life given the fact that your your career is given the fact that your your career is given the fact that your your career is so uh intertwined with social media and so uh intertwined with social media and so uh intertwined with social media and technology and all these platforms? technology and all these platforms? technology and all these platforms? >> Yeah. So, and and technology is funny >> Yeah. So, and and technology is funny >> Yeah. So, and and technology is funny because you know there's really two because you know there's really two because you know there's really two kinds of addictions. There's the kinds kinds of addictions. There's the kinds kinds of addictions. There's the kinds of addictions that you treat with of addictions that you treat with of addictions that you treat with complete abstinence. Those are easier complete abstinence. Those are easier complete abstinence. Those are easier than the addictions that you treat with than the addictions that you treat with than the addictions that you treat with moderation. You know, so if highly moderation. You know, so if highly moderation. You know, so if highly glycemic carbohydrates are a big problem glycemic carbohydrates are a big problem glycemic carbohydrates are a big problem in your life, the wrong advice is don't in your life, the wrong advice is don't in your life, the wrong advice is don't eat any more food. eat any more food. eat any more food. >> I mean, like I don't drink alcohol. you >> I mean, like I don't drink alcohol. you >> I mean, like I don't drink alcohol. you don't drink alcohol. Life is better when don't drink alcohol. Life is better when don't drink alcohol. Life is better when we don't drink alcohol. But we're not we don't drink alcohol. But we're not we don't drink alcohol. But we're not going to die if we don't. The truth is going to die if we don't. The truth is going to die if we don't. The truth is that technology today is much more like that technology today is much more like that technology today is much more like carbohydrates than it is like alcohol. carbohydrates than it is like alcohol. carbohydrates than it is like alcohol. You actually are going to use it because You actually are going to use it because You actually are going to use it because the world has changed and the world you the world has changed and the world you the world has changed and the world you look you could throw it into the ocean look you could throw it into the ocean look you could throw it into the ocean and go join a Carthusian monastery, but and go join a Carthusian monastery, but and go join a Carthusian monastery, but I'm not going to. I mean, you'll have to I'm not going to. I mean, you'll have to I'm not going to. I mean, you'll have to pry my iPhone out of my cold dead hands pry my iPhone out of my cold dead hands pry my iPhone out of my cold dead hands to paraphrase Charlton H. That's not to paraphrase Charlton H. That's not to paraphrase Charlton H. That's not going to happen. So the result is I need going to happen. So the result is I need going to happen. So the result is I need to learn how to use it as a tool as to learn how to use it as a tool as to learn how to use it as a tool as opposed to administering it as a opposed to administering it as a opposed to administering it as a medicine. medicine. medicine. >> Yeah. for the average person. Uh I I >> Yeah. for the average person. Uh I I >> Yeah. for the average person. Uh I I know I mean Tyler like did an experiment know I mean Tyler like did an experiment know I mean Tyler like did an experiment of of of getting rid of the smartphone of of of getting rid of the smartphone of of of getting rid of the smartphone and he lasted for a while and was and he lasted for a while and was and he lasted for a while and was happier, but ultimately like it's at happier, but ultimately like it's at happier, but ultimately like it's at cross purposes with some of the things cross purposes with some of the things cross purposes with some of the things that drive happiness because if you that drive happiness because if you that drive happiness because if you aren't available when your friends are aren't available when your friends are aren't available when your friends are trying to find you, you're not able to trying to find you, you're not able to trying to find you, you're not able to go meet up with them. You know, it just go meet up with them. You know, it just go meet up with them. You know, it just makes life makes life makes life >> too difficult in 2020 in the 2020s, >> too difficult in 2020 in the 2020s, >> too difficult in 2020 in the 2020s, right? So So you do have to develop a right? So So you do have to develop a right? So So you do have to develop a moderation diet which diffult because moderation diet which diffult because moderation diet which diffult because it's sort of like well I'm using it so I it's sort of like well I'm using it so I it's sort of like well I'm using it so I might as well look at this now and look might as well look at this now and look might as well look at this now and look at this and then you're off to the at this and then you're off to the at this and then you're off to the races. races. races. >> Yeah. So they and there's actually >> Yeah. So they and there's actually >> Yeah. So they and there's actually pretty good science that talks about how pretty good science that talks about how pretty good science that talks about how we can moderate it in very structured we can moderate it in very structured we can moderate it in very structured ways that work pretty well. So for ways that work pretty well. So for ways that work pretty well. So for people who have who are kind of leftrain people who have who are kind of leftrain people who have who are kind of leftrain types and who want to live by protocols, types and who want to live by protocols, types and who want to live by protocols, you know, people who watch a lot of you know, people who watch a lot of you know, people who watch a lot of podcasts, podcasts, podcasts, >> there's three things to do and that will >> there's three things to do and that will >> there's three things to do and that will really really change. So there's there's really really change. So there's there's really really change. So there's there's tech free times, there's tech free tech free times, there's tech free tech free times, there's tech free zones, and there's tech fasts. These are zones, and there's tech fasts. These are zones, and there's tech fasts. These are the three ways to think about it. the three ways to think about it. the three ways to think about it. Tech-free times. The tech-free times Tech-free times. The tech-free times Tech-free times. The tech-free times that really matter a lot are first hour that really matter a lot are first hour that really matter a lot are first hour of the morning, last hour at night, and of the morning, last hour at night, and of the morning, last hour at night, and meal times. And there's a lot of meal times. And there's a lot of meal times. And there's a lot of neuroscience behind why that it happens. neuroscience behind why that it happens. neuroscience behind why that it happens. You mean the the neural programming that You mean the the neural programming that You mean the the neural programming that goes on in the first hour of the day is goes on in the first hour of the day is goes on in the first hour of the day is set in the first hour. And you're either set in the first hour. And you're either set in the first hour. And you're either going to be thinking with your, you going to be thinking with your, you going to be thinking with your, you know, looking at your screen all day, or know, looking at your screen all day, or know, looking at your screen all day, or you can actually get a start on it. I you can actually get a start on it. I you can actually get a start on it. I recommend actually running around and recommend actually running around and recommend actually running around and picking up heavy things first thing in picking up heavy things first thing in picking up heavy things first thing in the morning and actually not using your the morning and actually not using your the morning and actually not using your phone while you do that, which sounds phone while you do that, which sounds phone while you do that, which sounds insane to a lot of people except that insane to a lot of people except that insane to a lot of people except that you notice that you have your best ideas you notice that you have your best ideas you notice that you have your best ideas in the shower. That's cuz your phone's in the shower. That's cuz your phone's in the shower. That's cuz your phone's not in there and and so and workout not in there and and so and workout not in there and and so and workout time. I'm sure that you felt that time. I'm sure that you felt that time. I'm sure that you felt that because you've done these I mean all because you've done these I mean all because you've done these I mean all night kind of deals and you're not night kind of deals and you're not night kind of deals and you're not looking at your phone on the contrary. looking at your phone on the contrary. looking at your phone on the contrary. And this is almost a transcendent And this is almost a transcendent And this is almost a transcendent experience in in no small part because experience in in no small part because experience in in no small part because you're exercising. You're opening up you're exercising. You're opening up you're exercising. You're opening up right hemispheric activity. right hemispheric activity. right hemispheric activity. >> Meal times are really important because >> Meal times are really important because >> Meal times are really important because um one of homo sapiens are evolved to to um one of homo sapiens are evolved to to um one of homo sapiens are evolved to to get a lot of oxytocin. You know the the get a lot of oxytocin. You know the the get a lot of oxytocin. You know the the neuropeptide that functions as a hormone neuropeptide that functions as a hormone neuropeptide that functions as a hormone for human bonding. When you eat together for human bonding. When you eat together for human bonding. When you eat together with eye contact sitting around a with eye contact sitting around a with eye contact sitting around a campfire, this is 250,000 years old. campfire, this is 250,000 years old. campfire, this is 250,000 years old. This is how it's weird because the idea This is how it's weird because the idea This is how it's weird because the idea of talking and eating and communing of talking and eating and communing of talking and eating and communing while putting stuff in our mouth, it while putting stuff in our mouth, it while putting stuff in our mouth, it doesn't sort of make sense. But in point doesn't sort of make sense. But in point doesn't sort of make sense. But in point of fact, eating together without of fact, eating together without of fact, eating together without devices, even having an iPhone on the devices, even having an iPhone on the devices, even having an iPhone on the table, it's important that we not have table, it's important that we not have table, it's important that we not have devices on the table right now because devices on the table right now because devices on the table right now because I'd look at it and think notifications, I'd look at it and think notifications, I'd look at it and think notifications, messages, and that would that would messages, and that would that would messages, and that would that would disrupt the oxytocin that I'm actually disrupt the oxytocin that I'm actually disrupt the oxytocin that I'm actually getting from looking at you in the eyes getting from looking at you in the eyes getting from looking at you in the eyes right now. That's why it's important right now. That's why it's important right now. That's why it's important that we do this show not on on on Zoom, that we do this show not on on on Zoom, that we do this show not on on on Zoom, that we do it with each other. Plus, that we do it with each other. Plus, that we do it with each other. Plus, we're friends. we're friends. we're friends. >> I love how you couch it in terms of >> I love how you couch it in terms of >> I love how you couch it in terms of oxytocin. It's like a deliberate choice oxytocin. It's like a deliberate choice oxytocin. It's like a deliberate choice uh to message this idea like sort of uh to message this idea like sort of uh to message this idea like sort of package it in a masculine way like the package it in a masculine way like the package it in a masculine way like the the oxytocin protocol, you know, you the oxytocin protocol, you know, you the oxytocin protocol, you know, you know what I mean? I know it's funny, know what I mean? I know it's funny, know what I mean? I know it's funny, >> which is like it's so it's it's obvious, >> which is like it's so it's it's obvious, >> which is like it's so it's it's obvious, right? Like we know this, you know, deep right? Like we know this, you know, deep right? Like we know this, you know, deep down we know that if we want to feel down we know that if we want to feel down we know that if we want to feel connected to other people, we have to connected to other people, we have to connected to other people, we have to remove distractions and we need to look remove distractions and we need to look remove distractions and we need to look them in the eye and we need to listen them in the eye and we need to listen them in the eye and we need to listen and be present with them and and be present with them and and be present with them and >> engage, >> engage, >> engage, >> right? I know, I know, I know, I know >> right? I know, I know, I know, I know >> right? I know, I know, I know, I know that we have to these scientific that we have to these scientific that we have to these scientific reminders. And you know, one of the reminders. And you know, one of the reminders. And you know, one of the things I talk about when I'm when I'm things I talk about when I'm when I'm things I talk about when I'm when I'm working with couples, for example, is I working with couples, for example, is I working with couples, for example, is I have to remind men that their wives, have to remind men that their wives, have to remind men that their wives, their girlfriends, their partners when their girlfriends, their partners when their girlfriends, their partners when they're with women, women have three they're with women, women have three they're with women, women have three times as much oxytocin as men because times as much oxytocin as men because times as much oxytocin as men because it's a bond with infants. So, they've it's a bond with infants. So, they've it's a bond with infants. So, they've evolved three times as much oxytocin, evolved three times as much oxytocin, evolved three times as much oxytocin, which means that oxytocin is more which means that oxytocin is more which means that oxytocin is more important for women than it is for men important for women than it is for men important for women than it is for men to feel alive. to feel alive. to feel alive. >> And how do you get it? With eye contact, >> And how do you get it? With eye contact, >> And how do you get it? With eye contact, which is why guys need to learn when which is why guys need to learn when which is why guys need to learn when they're having a conversation with their they're having a conversation with their they're having a conversation with their partner to look at them in the eyes. the partner to look at them in the eyes. the partner to look at them in the eyes. the whole time. And just that protocol, whole time. And just that protocol, whole time. And just that protocol, they're like, I don't know why she's they're like, I don't know why she's they're like, I don't know why she's happier. That's why. happier. That's why. happier. That's why. >> Yeah. This is called the oxytocin >> Yeah. This is called the oxytocin >> Yeah. This is called the oxytocin marriage protocol. And there are four marriage protocol. And there are four marriage protocol. And there are four prongs to this. Yes, exactly. prongs to this. Yes, exactly. prongs to this. Yes, exactly. >> There is there is ABT, always be >> There is there is ABT, always be >> There is there is ABT, always be touching, eye contact, as you as you touching, eye contact, as you as you touching, eye contact, as you as you mentioned. mentioned. mentioned. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> what are the other ones? Julie's tell >> what are the other ones? Julie's tell >> what are the other ones? Julie's tell me. Yeah, me. Yeah, me. Yeah, >> having fun. having fun as opposed to >> having fun. having fun as opposed to >> having fun. having fun as opposed to rehearsing grievance rehearsing grievance rehearsing grievance >> because that's reinforcing actual >> because that's reinforcing actual >> because that's reinforcing actual positive patterns as opposed to negative positive patterns as opposed to negative positive patterns as opposed to negative patterns. So it's not you it's like you patterns. So it's not you it's like you patterns. So it's not you it's like you said you said let's work out our said you said let's work out our said you said let's work out our problems all the time. Pour water into problems all the time. Pour water into problems all the time. Pour water into the glass that has a little bit of dirt the glass that has a little bit of dirt the glass that has a little bit of dirt in it and watch all the water just in it and watch all the water just in it and watch all the water just dissipate. I mean all the dirt dissipate. I mean all the dirt dissipate. I mean all the dirt dissipate. That's fun. Have more fun dissipate. That's fun. Have more fun dissipate. That's fun. Have more fun together. Associate the relationship together. Associate the relationship together. Associate the relationship more with fun. And last but not least is more with fun. And last but not least is more with fun. And last but not least is pray together. Meditate together. have a pray together. Meditate together. have a pray together. Meditate together. have a transcendent activity that goes beyond transcendent activity that goes beyond transcendent activity that goes beyond the here and now together because then the here and now together because then the here and now together because then you're wiring your right hemispheres you're wiring your right hemispheres you're wiring your right hemispheres together. One flesh, what that really together. One flesh, what that really together. One flesh, what that really means is two right hemispheres bonded means is two right hemispheres bonded means is two right hemispheres bonded together in an antenna to the divine. together in an antenna to the divine. together in an antenna to the divine. That's what that actually means. But That's what that actually means. But That's what that actually means. But again, again, again, >> and this is why Julie said to me the >> and this is why Julie said to me the >> and this is why Julie said to me the other day that you are our newest uh other day that you are our newest uh other day that you are our newest uh relationship guru. relationship guru. relationship guru. >> She sent me the video that you did on >> She sent me the video that you did on >> She sent me the video that you did on that. Um, and we've been practicing it. that. Um, and we've been practicing it. that. Um, and we've been practicing it. Uh, because I'm on this, you know, Uh, because I'm on this, you know, Uh, because I'm on this, you know, journey towards more intimacy. We can journey towards more intimacy. We can journey towards more intimacy. We can talk a little bit more about that. talk a little bit more about that. talk a little bit more about that. >> Well, because you love her. Because >> Well, because you love her. Because >> Well, because you love her. Because she's she's your soulmate she's she's your soulmate she's she's your soulmate and and she needs that and you want to and and she needs that and you want to and and she needs that and you want to give her what she needs. give her what she needs. give her what she needs. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this is the medicine uh to treat my >> And this is the medicine uh to treat my >> And this is the medicine uh to treat my stvers dilemma. Yeah. My my uh uh my stvers dilemma. Yeah. My my uh uh my stvers dilemma. Yeah. My my uh uh my terminal case of strive. We also need to terminal case of strive. We also need to terminal case of strive. We also need to talk about um enjoyment which is another talk about um enjoyment which is another talk about um enjoyment which is another macro nutrient but we'll get back to macro nutrient but we'll get back to macro nutrient but we'll get back to that. that. that. >> We'll get back to that. We're kind of >> We'll get back to that. We're kind of >> We'll get back to that. We're kind of jumping around and jumping ahead and jumping around and jumping ahead and jumping around and jumping ahead and there's a couple other things about there's a couple other things about there's a couple other things about tech. tech. tech. >> So the the the third tech-free time is >> So the the the third tech-free time is >> So the the the third tech-free time is the hour last hour before bed the hour last hour before bed the hour last hour before bed >> and a lot of that is the disruption of >> and a lot of that is the disruption of >> and a lot of that is the disruption of the activity of the pineal gland and the activity of the pineal gland and the activity of the pineal gland and melatona etc etc. But basically you melatona etc etc. But basically you melatona etc etc. But basically you should be paying more attention to your should be paying more attention to your should be paying more attention to your loved ones and less attention to your loved ones and less attention to your loved ones and less attention to your devices such that you'll rest better. devices such that you'll rest better. devices such that you'll rest better. One of the things that we know is that One of the things that we know is that One of the things that we know is that you will really disrupt your rest if you will really disrupt your rest if you will really disrupt your rest if you're looking at looking at the at the you're looking at looking at the at the you're looking at looking at the at the at the screen. So, it's first hour of at the screen. So, it's first hour of at the screen. So, it's first hour of the morning, last hour at night, and the morning, last hour at night, and the morning, last hour at night, and meal time. The second is tech-free zones meal time. The second is tech-free zones meal time. The second is tech-free zones in your life. And the the biggie is your in your life. And the the biggie is your in your life. And the the biggie is your bedroom. You shouldn't have a device in bedroom. You shouldn't have a device in bedroom. You shouldn't have a device in your bedroom. And you know, the the the your bedroom. And you know, the the the your bedroom. And you know, the the the phone should be plugged in down phone should be plugged in down phone should be plugged in down downstairs in a locked closet or downstairs in a locked closet or downstairs in a locked closet or something in the foyer of your house. something in the foyer of your house. something in the foyer of your house. And so, it's just you get out of the And so, it's just you get out of the And so, it's just you get out of the pattern. And it's very it's actually pattern. And it's very it's actually pattern. And it's very it's actually pretty successful. People say, and this pretty successful. People say, and this pretty successful. People say, and this has happened to me too, even if I do has happened to me too, even if I do has happened to me too, even if I do have the phone next to my bed because I have the phone next to my bed because I have the phone next to my bed because I I I don't have an alarm clock and I'm on I I don't have an alarm clock and I'm on I I don't have an alarm clock and I'm on the road. And um I I never look at it the road. And um I I never look at it the road. And um I I never look at it because I'm not in the habit of ever because I'm not in the habit of ever because I'm not in the habit of ever looking at my phone at night. looking at my phone at night. looking at my phone at night. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And another tech-free zone is a >> And another tech-free zone is a >> And another tech-free zone is a classroom, by the way. And I have to classroom, by the way. And I have to classroom, by the way. And I have to this is a public policy discussion, but this is a public policy discussion, but this is a public policy discussion, but you know, there there shouldn't be a you know, there there shouldn't be a you know, there there shouldn't be a telephone, a a smartphone in any telephone, a a smartphone in any telephone, a a smartphone in any classroom at any level from kindergarten classroom at any level from kindergarten classroom at any level from kindergarten through PhD. That is insanity. through PhD. That is insanity. through PhD. That is insanity. >> 100%. the whole work the whole school >> 100%. the whole work the whole school >> 100%. the whole work the whole school day as a matter of fact and the most day as a matter of fact and the most day as a matter of fact and the most important hour is lunch hour because of important hour is lunch hour because of important hour is lunch hour because of socialization and last but not least is socialization and last but not least is socialization and last but not least is tech fasts and I recommend a 4-day tech fasts and I recommend a 4-day tech fasts and I recommend a 4-day silent retreat for everybody for lots silent retreat for everybody for lots silent retreat for everybody for lots and lots of reasons but a tech-free at and lots of reasons but a tech-free at and lots of reasons but a tech-free at least 4-day retreat spiritual retreat least 4-day retreat spiritual retreat least 4-day retreat spiritual retreat meditation retreat prayer retreat meditation retreat prayer retreat meditation retreat prayer retreat religious retreat whatever it is and and religious retreat whatever it is and and religious retreat whatever it is and and I know you do these things and I do too I know you do these things and I do too I know you do these things and I do too I mean I go on retreats every single I mean I go on retreats every single I mean I go on retreats every single year but four days completely away from year but four days completely away from year but four days completely away from your devices these three things are a your devices these three things are a your devices these three things are a game changer game changer game changer We talk about fasting all the time here. We talk about fasting all the time here. We talk about fasting all the time here. So much so that I couldn't even tell you So much so that I couldn't even tell you So much so that I couldn't even tell you how many experts and researchers I've how many experts and researchers I've how many experts and researchers I've hosted on this topic, let alone the hosted on this topic, let alone the hosted on this topic, let alone the number of episodes. But the science number of episodes. But the science number of episodes. But the science researcher that I trust the most on this researcher that I trust the most on this researcher that I trust the most on this topic is Dr. Walter Longo. He's been on topic is Dr. Walter Longo. He's been on topic is Dr. Walter Longo. He's been on the show a bunch and through all of his the show a bunch and through all of his the show a bunch and through all of his extensive rigorous research, he has extensive rigorous research, he has extensive rigorous research, he has devised what he calls the fasting devised what he calls the fasting devised what he calls the fasting mimicking diet, which is essentially a mimicking diet, which is essentially a mimicking diet, which is essentially a way of eating that produces the same way of eating that produces the same way of eating that produces the same beneficial effects of fasting without beneficial effects of fasting without beneficial effects of fasting without having to completely stop eating. And having to completely stop eating. And having to completely stop eating. 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Basically, Prolong provides you with everything you need. 5 provides you with everything you need. 5 provides you with everything you need. 5 days worth of structured plant-based days worth of structured plant-based days worth of structured plant-based meals that nourish you while maintaining meals that nourish you while maintaining meals that nourish you while maintaining your body in the desired fasting state. your body in the desired fasting state. your body in the desired fasting state. And you can see it all here in this And you can see it all here in this And you can see it all here in this beautiful big box that they send you. beautiful big box that they send you. beautiful big box that they send you. 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This episode is brought to you by Freaks of Nature brought to you by Freaks of Nature brought to you by Freaks of Nature because I'm a freak when it comes to because I'm a freak when it comes to because I'm a freak when it comes to making sure that what goes into and on making sure that what goes into and on making sure that what goes into and on my body comes from nature. If you're my body comes from nature. If you're my body comes from nature. 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And right now is the time because when you go to freaksof.com, when you go to freaksof.com, when you go to freaksof.com, which is what you're going to do right which is what you're going to do right which is what you're going to do right now, and you use the code rich roll, now, and you use the code rich roll, now, and you use the code rich roll, you're going to save 10% when you order you're going to save 10% when you order you're going to save 10% when you order now before it sells out again. So do it. We've talked about the what like there We've talked about the what like there is this crisis of meaning. We've talked is this crisis of meaning. We've talked is this crisis of meaning. We've talked about how we arrived in this place, but about how we arrived in this place, but about how we arrived in this place, but we have yet to actually define what we have yet to actually define what we have yet to actually define what meaning is. I think when you say like, meaning is. I think when you say like, meaning is. I think when you say like, oh, like I I my life lacks meaning or I oh, like I I my life lacks meaning or I oh, like I I my life lacks meaning or I don't have purpose or I feel un like don't have purpose or I feel un like don't have purpose or I feel un like what exactly are we talking about? what exactly are we talking about? what exactly are we talking about? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it gets confusing for people. And I >> it gets confusing for people. And I >> it gets confusing for people. And I think when you say, well, well, you need think when you say, well, well, you need think when you say, well, well, you need more meaning in your life, that can be more meaning in your life, that can be more meaning in your life, that can be paralyzing for somebody because paralyzing for somebody because paralyzing for somebody because >> what what are you supposed to do with >> what what are you supposed to do with >> what what are you supposed to do with that? that? that? >> It's too big. It's too big, for sure. >> It's too big. It's too big, for sure. >> It's too big. It's too big, for sure. And like anything else, when you have a And like anything else, when you have a And like anything else, when you have a big problem, the way to solve it is to big problem, the way to solve it is to big problem, the way to solve it is to break it down into smaller problems. break it down into smaller problems. break it down into smaller problems. like anything else in your life, you like anything else in your life, you like anything else in your life, you know, if you say if somebody comes to me know, if you say if somebody comes to me know, if you say if somebody comes to me and say, "I'm really really struggling and say, "I'm really really struggling and say, "I'm really really struggling in my marriage, that that's too big." in my marriage, that that's too big." in my marriage, that that's too big." You know, you break it down into five or You know, you break it down into five or You know, you break it down into five or six areas of your marriage and figure six areas of your marriage and figure six areas of your marriage and figure out how to solve those problems. And out how to solve those problems. And out how to solve those problems. And what you find is when you're working on what you find is when you're working on what you find is when you're working on little problems that they scale up into little problems that they scale up into little problems that they scale up into big solutions. And so the same thing is big solutions. And so the same thing is big solutions. And so the same thing is true with meaning. Meaning really is a a true with meaning. Meaning really is a a true with meaning. Meaning really is a a series of three little problems. The series of three little problems. The series of three little problems. The meaning problem is three smaller meaning problem is three smaller meaning problem is three smaller problems. One is the problem of why problems. One is the problem of why problems. One is the problem of why things happen the way they do in your things happen the way they do in your things happen the way they do in your life. and and you need to have an life. and and you need to have an life. and and you need to have an understanding, a belief about why things understanding, a belief about why things understanding, a belief about why things happen the way that they do. It doesn't happen the way that they do. It doesn't happen the way that they do. It doesn't have to be my belief. Um, a lot of have to be my belief. Um, a lot of have to be my belief. Um, a lot of people are religious and that's how they people are religious and that's how they people are religious and that's how they have that's called coherence. Why do have that's called coherence. Why do have that's called coherence. Why do things happen the way they do? Big why things happen the way they do? Big why things happen the way they do? Big why question. Some people are very question. Some people are very question. Some people are very scientific about that. Some people go scientific about that. Some people go scientific about that. Some people go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy down the rabbit hole of conspiracy down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories. That's a cry for meaning. And theories. That's a cry for meaning. And theories. That's a cry for meaning. And you know, when you have a a relative you know, when you have a a relative you know, when you have a a relative who's really really into conspiracy who's really really into conspiracy who's really really into conspiracy theories on the internet, that's because theories on the internet, that's because theories on the internet, that's because they're looking for a sense of coherence they're looking for a sense of coherence they're looking for a sense of coherence because they're searching for meaning because they're searching for meaning because they're searching for meaning and they want meaning because they want and they want meaning because they want and they want meaning because they want to be happier. And so saying, "You to be happier. And so saying, "You to be happier. And so saying, "You [ __ ] look at the science." It's [ __ ] look at the science." It's [ __ ] look at the science." It's completely unhelpful. The way that you completely unhelpful. The way that you completely unhelpful. The way that you deal with this is offering them a better deal with this is offering them a better deal with this is offering them a better a better sense of coherence. How does a better sense of coherence. How does a better sense of coherence. How does that relate to a discomfort with that relate to a discomfort with that relate to a discomfort with uncertainty, though? Because sometimes uncertainty, though? Because sometimes uncertainty, though? Because sometimes whether it's conspiracy theories or whether it's conspiracy theories or whether it's conspiracy theories or religion or just looking for reasons why religion or just looking for reasons why religion or just looking for reasons why why and how I ended up why and how I ended up why and how I ended up >> you know in this place like oh you know >> you know in this place like oh you know >> you know in this place like oh you know you get out the red string and you can you get out the red string and you can you get out the red string and you can you know like you know find the data you know like you know find the data you know like you know find the data points and connect everything and it points and connect everything and it points and connect everything and it makes you feel like okay makes you feel like okay makes you feel like okay >> I feel some sense of control or at least >> I feel some sense of control or at least >> I feel some sense of control or at least I understand the landscape because I'm I understand the landscape because I'm I understand the landscape because I'm just uncomfortable with the fact that just uncomfortable with the fact that just uncomfortable with the fact that you know I can't make sense of it you know I can't make sense of it you know I can't make sense of it >> right and absolute certainty it turns >> right and absolute certainty it turns >> right and absolute certainty it turns that is not necessary for a sense of that is not necessary for a sense of that is not necessary for a sense of coherence. So as a religious person, I I coherence. So as a religious person, I I coherence. So as a religious person, I I I I believe that God has a hand in I I believe that God has a hand in I I believe that God has a hand in what's happening here on earth. I don't what's happening here on earth. I don't what's happening here on earth. I don't understand it. You know, the book of Job understand it. You know, the book of Job understand it. You know, the book of Job in the Old Testament of the Bible is all in the Old Testament of the Bible is all in the Old Testament of the Bible is all about not understanding pain and about not understanding pain and about not understanding pain and suffering. suffering. suffering. >> But that but there there is a logic >> But that but there there is a logic >> But that but there there is a logic behind pain and suffering. There is behind pain and suffering. There is behind pain and suffering. There is meaning be that the book of Job is about meaning be that the book of Job is about meaning be that the book of Job is about suffering brings meaning and you don't suffering brings meaning and you don't suffering brings meaning and you don't understand why. That's the punchline of understand why. That's the punchline of understand why. That's the punchline of the book of Job. But that's a sense of the book of Job. But that's a sense of the book of Job. But that's a sense of coherence without perfect understanding coherence without perfect understanding coherence without perfect understanding because remember perfect understanding because remember perfect understanding because remember perfect understanding is a leftrain thing. The idea that there is a leftrain thing. The idea that there is a leftrain thing. The idea that there is coherence and there's a source of is coherence and there's a source of is coherence and there's a source of coherence that's a right brain thing coherence that's a right brain thing coherence that's a right brain thing >> and it's okay. You know it's like as a I >> and it's okay. You know it's like as a I >> and it's okay. You know it's like as a I mean I'm a behavioral scientist. I mean mean I'm a behavioral scientist. I mean mean I'm a behavioral scientist. I mean that's that's where I live and I believe that's that's where I live and I believe that's that's where I live and I believe that science that there's a coherence that science that there's a coherence that science that there's a coherence behind science, right? But I don't behind science, right? But I don't behind science, right? But I don't understand it all. understand it all. understand it all. >> There's a there's so much about >> There's a there's so much about >> There's a there's so much about neuroscience. I'm just a hack. I don't neuroscience. I'm just a hack. I don't neuroscience. I'm just a hack. I don't understand anything. But I know that understand anything. But I know that understand anything. But I know that there is truth that lies behind it. I've there is truth that lies behind it. I've there is truth that lies behind it. I've studied mathematics extensively for my studied mathematics extensively for my studied mathematics extensively for my especially when I was in graduate especially when I was in graduate especially when I was in graduate school. There was so much math I didn't school. There was so much math I didn't school. There was so much math I didn't understand and I know that there was understand and I know that there was understand and I know that there was math explaining a lot of things that I math explaining a lot of things that I math explaining a lot of things that I couldn't get but I knew it existed. I couldn't get but I knew it existed. I couldn't get but I knew it existed. I knew it actually existed. That gave me a knew it actually existed. That gave me a knew it actually existed. That gave me a sense of coherence. So that's number one sense of coherence. So that's number one sense of coherence. So that's number one is a belief that there is a structure is a belief that there is a structure is a belief that there is a structure and you have a family of what it might and you have a family of what it might and you have a family of what it might be. be. be. >> So the question is why do things happen >> So the question is why do things happen >> So the question is why do things happen in my life? Like that's a pretty that's in my life? Like that's a pretty that's in my life? Like that's a pretty that's a heady question. I mean that's a a heady question. I mean that's a a heady question. I mean that's a profound question and it's demanding you profound question and it's demanding you profound question and it's demanding you know rigorous honesty I think to really know rigorous honesty I think to really know rigorous honesty I think to really get to the bottom of it. get to the bottom of it. get to the bottom of it. >> So for somebody who maybe is unfamiliar >> So for somebody who maybe is unfamiliar >> So for somebody who maybe is unfamiliar with that kind of self inquiry or with that kind of self inquiry or with that kind of self inquiry or probing like what what would be an probing like what what would be an probing like what what would be an example of example of example of >> that question? >> that question? >> that question? >> A lot of bad things are happening to me. >> A lot of bad things are happening to me. >> A lot of bad things are happening to me. Now anybody who's been in recovery has Now anybody who's been in recovery has Now anybody who's been in recovery has dealt with this. A lot of bad things are dealt with this. A lot of bad things are dealt with this. A lot of bad things are happening to me. A lot of bad things are happening to me. A lot of bad things are happening to me. A lot of bad things are happening to me. I don't want to deal happening to me. I don't want to deal happening to me. I don't want to deal with why bad things are happening to me. with why bad things are happening to me. with why bad things are happening to me. I'm going to stay anesthetized so I I'm going to stay anesthetized so I I'm going to stay anesthetized so I don't have to deal with why bad things don't have to deal with why bad things don't have to deal with why bad things are happening to me. Breakthroughs are happening to me. Breakthroughs are happening to me. Breakthroughs happen when you confront the real reason happen when you confront the real reason happen when you confront the real reason that things are happening in your life that things are happening in your life that things are happening in your life and and and it's and say I want I want and and and it's and say I want I want and and and it's and say I want I want the truth. I want the truth. I'm going the truth. I want the truth. I'm going the truth. I want the truth. I'm going to get the truth and it's going to hurt to get the truth and it's going to hurt to get the truth and it's going to hurt and that's okay. and that's okay. and that's okay. >> It's an amazing thing. It's a it's a >> It's an amazing thing. It's a it's a >> It's an amazing thing. It's a it's a it's an epiphany is kind of how that it's an epiphany is kind of how that it's an epiphany is kind of how that works. And so that's what it comes down works. And so that's what it comes down works. And so that's what it comes down to. There's lots and lots of things to. There's lots and lots of things to. There's lots and lots of things happening. What do I believe? And I have happening. What do I believe? And I have happening. What do I believe? And I have an I have a an exercise in the book that an I have a an exercise in the book that an I have a an exercise in the book that gives you five different possible gives you five different possible gives you five different possible explanations why to get you started on explanations why to get you started on explanations why to get you started on it and put them in order because they're it and put them in order because they're it and put them in order because they're not mutually exclusive. And I'll give not mutually exclusive. And I'll give not mutually exclusive. And I'll give you an example of this. My dad was a had you an example of this. My dad was a had you an example of this. My dad was a had a PhD in bio bioatistics. He was a a PhD in bio bioatistics. He was a a PhD in bio bioatistics. He was a statistician par excellence and and he statistician par excellence and and he statistician par excellence and and he was super religious. My dad was a super was super religious. My dad was a super was super religious. My dad was a super strong practicing Christian and and he strong practicing Christian and and he strong practicing Christian and and he believed that that God controlled the believed that that God controlled the believed that that God controlled the universe. And one of the ways that he universe. And one of the ways that he universe. And one of the ways that he set up the universe was by creating set up the universe was by creating set up the universe was by creating random series of events that he built random series of events that he built random series of events that he built randomness into the universe randomness into the universe randomness into the universe and and and he's and I said, "Okay, I and and and he's and I said, "Okay, I and and and he's and I said, "Okay, I you know, I'm being a I'm you know, I'm you know, I'm being a I'm you know, I'm you know, I'm being a I'm you know, I'm being a wise ass dad." Oh, yeah. Oh, being a wise ass dad." Oh, yeah. Oh, being a wise ass dad." Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Adolescent. Yeah. Well, what's a yeah. Adolescent. Yeah. Well, what's a yeah. Adolescent. Yeah. Well, what's a miracle then? And he said, "A longtail miracle then? And he said, "A longtail miracle then? And he said, "A longtail event. Duh." In other words, something event. Duh." In other words, something event. Duh." In other words, something is two or three standard deviations out is two or three standard deviations out is two or three standard deviations out on the in the in the distribution with on the in the in the distribution with on the in the in the distribution with the random variables. He said it's so the random variables. He said it's so the random variables. He said it's so amazing. It's so sublime that God amazing. It's so sublime that God amazing. It's so sublime that God created the universe in this particular created the universe in this particular created the universe in this particular way. Which says that there's not a a way. Which says that there's not a a way. Which says that there's not a a discrepancy be behind the idea of a discrepancy be behind the idea of a discrepancy be behind the idea of a grand intelligence and at the same time grand intelligence and at the same time grand intelligence and at the same time stochastic variation and what would stochastic variation and what would stochastic variation and what would happen in your life. But understanding happen in your life. But understanding happen in your life. But understanding kind of how you see things is really kind of how you see things is really kind of how you see things is really important. Do you believe in willpower? important. Do you believe in willpower? important. Do you believe in willpower? Do you believe in will free will? Do you Do you believe in will free will? Do you Do you believe in will free will? Do you believe the in the essence of believe the in the essence of believe the in the essence of consciousness? These are all the kinds consciousness? These are all the kinds consciousness? These are all the kinds of questions that you actually get into. of questions that you actually get into. of questions that you actually get into. And and guess what? Chat GPT can't tell And and guess what? Chat GPT can't tell And and guess what? Chat GPT can't tell you you you >> because all that will do is just >> because all that will do is just >> because all that will do is just exercise a couple of patterns in the exercise a couple of patterns in the exercise a couple of patterns in the left hand side of your brain. This is left hand side of your brain. This is left hand side of your brain. This is something to live with. Does it confuse something to live with. Does it confuse something to live with. Does it confuse people that you're a deeply religious people that you're a deeply religious people that you're a deeply religious person as well as a scientist? person as well as a scientist? person as well as a scientist? >> Sometimes although there's the >> Sometimes although there's the >> Sometimes although there's the traditionally I mean if you go back and traditionally I mean if you go back and traditionally I mean if you go back and look at Sir Isaac Newton, I'm no Isaac look at Sir Isaac Newton, I'm no Isaac look at Sir Isaac Newton, I'm no Isaac Newton, but Isaac Newton was super Newton, but Isaac Newton was super Newton, but Isaac Newton was super religious. If you look at Arthur Haley, religious. If you look at Arthur Haley, religious. If you look at Arthur Haley, I mean these old school scientists from I mean these old school scientists from I mean these old school scientists from times back at the, you know, the early times back at the, you know, the early times back at the, you know, the early stages of the enlightenment, they tended stages of the enlightenment, they tended stages of the enlightenment, they tended to be very, very religious people. to be very, very religious people. to be very, very religious people. Charles Darwin was extremely religious. Charles Darwin was extremely religious. Charles Darwin was extremely religious. He was a he was very orthodox in his He was a he was very orthodox in his He was a he was very orthodox in his Christian beliefs. Christian beliefs. Christian beliefs. And here's basically how they saw it. And here's basically how they saw it. And here's basically how they saw it. Um, we see a tension between the Um, we see a tension between the Um, we see a tension between the creation and the creator, but there creation and the creator, but there creation and the creator, but there isn't any tension. If I were a an art isn't any tension. If I were a an art isn't any tension. If I were a an art historian specializing in Picasso, historian specializing in Picasso, historian specializing in Picasso, you'd say I was a pretty crummy you'd say I was a pretty crummy you'd say I was a pretty crummy historian of Picasso if I only historian of Picasso if I only historian of Picasso if I only understood Picasso's paintings but knew understood Picasso's paintings but knew understood Picasso's paintings but knew literally nothing about Picasso and had literally nothing about Picasso and had literally nothing about Picasso and had no interest in Picasso whatsoever. no interest in Picasso whatsoever. no interest in Picasso whatsoever. Furthermore, if I said Picasso doesn't Furthermore, if I said Picasso doesn't Furthermore, if I said Picasso doesn't exist and you say, "What are you talking exist and you say, "What are you talking exist and you say, "What are you talking about?" Cuz I can't find evidence of him about?" Cuz I can't find evidence of him about?" Cuz I can't find evidence of him in these paintings. I mean, I keep in these paintings. I mean, I keep in these paintings. I mean, I keep looking at the paintings. There's no looking at the paintings. There's no looking at the paintings. There's no Picasso in here. I keep reading Harry Picasso in here. I keep reading Harry Picasso in here. I keep reading Harry Potter and JK Rowling is not showing up Potter and JK Rowling is not showing up Potter and JK Rowling is not showing up in Harry Potter. in Harry Potter. in Harry Potter. >> Mhm. That's the Pete Holmes joke. >> Mhm. That's the Pete Holmes joke. >> Mhm. That's the Pete Holmes joke. >> That's the Pete Holmes joke. >> That's the Pete Holmes joke. >> That's the Pete Holmes joke. >> Have you heard Yeah. Have you heard that >> Have you heard Yeah. Have you heard that >> Have you heard Yeah. Have you heard that joke? Yeah. joke? Yeah. joke? Yeah. >> The Picasso joke. Actually, that was the >> The Picasso joke. Actually, that was the >> The Picasso joke. Actually, that was the example that my dad used to give. You example that my dad used to give. You example that my dad used to give. You know, I grew up in Seattle and that, you know, I grew up in Seattle and that, you know, I grew up in Seattle and that, you know, the the unique feature of Seattle know, the the unique feature of Seattle know, the the unique feature of Seattle is the Space Needle. You've seen it is the Space Needle. You've seen it is the Space Needle. You've seen it before, right? before, right? before, right? >> I was just there a week ago. >> I was just there a week ago. >> I was just there a week ago. >> Oh, really? Yeah. My hometown. And that >> Oh, really? Yeah. My hometown. And that >> Oh, really? Yeah. My hometown. And that was built for the 1962 World's Fair, you was built for the 1962 World's Fair, you was built for the 1962 World's Fair, you know, before we were born. And the know, before we were born. And the know, before we were born. And the reason is because the theme of the 1962 reason is because the theme of the 1962 reason is because the theme of the 1962 World's Fair was man in space. Did you World's Fair was man in space. Did you World's Fair was man in space. Did you know that? And I didn't. know that? And I didn't. know that? And I didn't. >> Yeah. And so the Space Needle was >> Yeah. And so the Space Needle was >> Yeah. And so the Space Needle was supposed to be sort of evoke images of supposed to be sort of evoke images of supposed to be sort of evoke images of of space travel. And the big celebrity of space travel. And the big celebrity of space travel. And the big celebrity event at the opening of the Space Needle event at the opening of the Space Needle event at the opening of the Space Needle was Gman Titov, the the cosminaut, the was Gman Titov, the the cosminaut, the was Gman Titov, the the cosminaut, the Russian cosminaut, the first one to Russian cosminaut, the first one to Russian cosminaut, the first one to actually be in outer space. And he he actually be in outer space. And he he actually be in outer space. And he he gave this speech, spoke English more or gave this speech, spoke English more or gave this speech, spoke English more or less, and he gave this speech saying it less, and he gave this speech saying it less, and he gave this speech saying it was this total Soviet atheist, you know, was this total Soviet atheist, you know, was this total Soviet atheist, you know, line. I spent the whole afternoon with line. I spent the whole afternoon with line. I spent the whole afternoon with my telescope looking out into space and my telescope looking out into space and my telescope looking out into space and I saw neither angels nor God. And my dad I saw neither angels nor God. And my dad I saw neither angels nor God. And my dad said, "That is the stupidest thing I've said, "That is the stupidest thing I've said, "That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard because that's not where ever heard because that's not where ever heard because that's not where you're going to find God is by looking you're going to find God is by looking you're going to find God is by looking into the creation that God created." And into the creation that God created." And into the creation that God created." And and that's the point. There is the and that's the point. There is the and that's the point. There is the physics and there's the metaphysics. physics and there's the metaphysics. physics and there's the metaphysics. >> And you're just not a very good >> And you're just not a very good >> And you're just not a very good intellectual if you're interested only intellectual if you're interested only intellectual if you're interested only in the physical side, but not the in the physical side, but not the in the physical side, but not the metaphysical side. metaphysical side. metaphysical side. >> The metaphysical side is the the why of >> The metaphysical side is the the why of >> The metaphysical side is the the why of it all. And that's really really where it all. And that's really really where it all. And that's really really where it gets interesting. it gets interesting. it gets interesting. >> To me, there isn't an inconsistency. >> To me, there isn't an inconsistency. >> To me, there isn't an inconsistency. Uh because I think the more steeped you Uh because I think the more steeped you Uh because I think the more steeped you are in science, the more wild and are in science, the more wild and are in science, the more wild and magical and unbelievable everything magical and unbelievable everything magical and unbelievable everything gets, right? Like which gets, right? Like which gets, right? Like which >> would lend itself to a deeper >> would lend itself to a deeper >> would lend itself to a deeper appreciation for just how insane, you appreciation for just how insane, you appreciation for just how insane, you know, it all is. Like once you get to know, it all is. Like once you get to know, it all is. Like once you get to Yeah. Okay, the Big Bang, but like why Yeah. Okay, the Big Bang, but like why Yeah. Okay, the Big Bang, but like why the Big Bang? Like what was before the, the Big Bang? Like what was before the, the Big Bang? Like what was before the, you know, all of that, right? Like these you know, all of that, right? Like these you know, all of that, right? Like these unanswerable questions. My dad used to unanswerable questions. My dad used to unanswerable questions. My dad used to say the miracle isn't walking on water. say the miracle isn't walking on water. say the miracle isn't walking on water. The miracle is water. The miracle is water. The miracle is water. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> Um but then you have to reconcile that >> Um but then you have to reconcile that >> Um but then you have to reconcile that with the scientific method which is with the scientific method which is with the scientific method which is premised on the idea that everything is premised on the idea that everything is premised on the idea that everything is understandable um through you know understandable um through you know understandable um through you know rigorous investigation. rigorous investigation. rigorous investigation. >> Right. Right. And that is all that is is >> Right. Right. And that is all that is is >> Right. Right. And that is all that is is a left hemisphere curve fit for the a left hemisphere curve fit for the a left hemisphere curve fit for the mysteries of the right hemisphere of the mysteries of the right hemisphere of the mysteries of the right hemisphere of the brain. That's what it comes down to. brain. That's what it comes down to. brain. That's what it comes down to. It's like I I I'm I'm doing the best I It's like I I I'm I'm doing the best I It's like I I I'm I'm doing the best I can to apprehend in a complicated way can to apprehend in a complicated way can to apprehend in a complicated way the complexities of the universe. And the complexities of the universe. And the complexities of the universe. And that's a good thing to do. But if you that's a good thing to do. But if you that's a good thing to do. But if you get stuck in that, you can make the get stuck in that, you can make the get stuck in that, you can make the mistake of thinking everything actually mistake of thinking everything actually mistake of thinking everything actually is complicated. You know, but by the is complicated. You know, but by the is complicated. You know, but by the way, that has led to misery and the way, that has led to misery and the way, that has led to misery and the death of millions of people. You know, death of millions of people. You know, death of millions of people. You know, Carl Marx and Friedrich Engles talked Carl Marx and Friedrich Engles talked Carl Marx and Friedrich Engles talked about scientific socialism. Their whole about scientific socialism. Their whole about scientific socialism. Their whole concept of society is that it's concept of society is that it's concept of society is that it's ultimately a scientific system and that ultimately a scientific system and that ultimately a scientific system and that we can solve it in the same way that we can solve it in the same way that we can solve it in the same way that physicists are trying to understand the physicists are trying to understand the physicists are trying to understand the natural laws of the universe, the natural laws of the universe, the natural laws of the universe, the natural laws of of of nature. And and natural laws of of of nature. And and natural laws of of of nature. And and and people will will follow absolute and people will will follow absolute and people will will follow absolute patterns because it's all just atoms. patterns because it's all just atoms. patterns because it's all just atoms. It's all just molecules, not not not It's all just molecules, not not not It's all just molecules, not not not appreciating the fact that that people appreciating the fact that that people appreciating the fact that that people are complex. People aren't complicated are complex. People aren't complicated are complex. People aren't complicated in this way. And when you treat people in this way. And when you treat people in this way. And when you treat people like they're a machine, you will take like they're a machine, you will take like they're a machine, you will take away their humanity. They will become away their humanity. They will become away their humanity. They will become ultimately alienated. And and when they ultimately alienated. And and when they ultimately alienated. And and when they don't behave the way that you want them don't behave the way that you want them don't behave the way that you want them to, you got to force them to do that. to, you got to force them to do that. to, you got to force them to do that. That's all of the mistakes and all the That's all of the mistakes and all the That's all of the mistakes and all the demagoguery and nuttiness of of and demagoguery and nuttiness of of and demagoguery and nuttiness of of and tyranny of humanity has been based on tyranny of humanity has been based on tyranny of humanity has been based on that error. that error. that error. >> So we've made it through one of the >> So we've made it through one of the >> So we've made it through one of the three big questions. three big questions. three big questions. >> Meaning >> Meaning >> Meaning >> in man's search for meaning. Uh we we >> in man's search for meaning. Uh we we >> in man's search for meaning. Uh we we talked about coherence, the question you talked about coherence, the question you talked about coherence, the question you have to ask yourself to, you know, get have to ask yourself to, you know, get have to ask yourself to, you know, get to the bottom of that. to the bottom of that. to the bottom of that. >> Um that brings us to purpose and a next >> Um that brings us to purpose and a next >> Um that brings us to purpose and a next question. question. question. >> So purpose is often used interchangeably >> So purpose is often used interchangeably >> So purpose is often used interchangeably with meaning, but it's not the same with meaning, but it's not the same with meaning, but it's not the same thing. It's a component of meaning. thing. It's a component of meaning. thing. It's a component of meaning. Purpose is goals and direction in life. Purpose is goals and direction in life. Purpose is goals and direction in life. It's the why question of why am I doing It's the why question of why am I doing It's the why question of why am I doing what I'm doing? Not not why do things what I'm doing? Not not why do things what I'm doing? Not not why do things happen the way that they do, but it's happen the way that they do, but it's happen the way that they do, but it's why am I doing what I'm doing? Why is why am I doing what I'm doing? Why is why am I doing what I'm doing? Why is Rich Roll doing what Rich Roll is doing? Rich Roll doing what Rich Roll is doing? Rich Roll doing what Rich Roll is doing? It's the why am I continuing to do this It's the why am I continuing to do this It's the why am I continuing to do this podcast? Why am I doing that? Why am I podcast? Why am I doing that? Why am I podcast? Why am I doing that? Why am I going and getting why why do I continue going and getting why why do I continue going and getting why why do I continue to live the life that I live? And if the to live the life that I live? And if the to live the life that I live? And if the answer is for no reason, for no reason, answer is for no reason, for no reason, answer is for no reason, for no reason, then all you're doing is actually going then all you're doing is actually going then all you're doing is actually going in circles. People humans are made not in circles. People humans are made not in circles. People humans are made not for achieving goals, but making progress for achieving goals, but making progress for achieving goals, but making progress toward them. And this is a there's a lot toward them. And this is a there's a lot toward them. And this is a there's a lot of research that shows that if you of research that shows that if you of research that shows that if you actually think that your happiness is actually think that your happiness is actually think that your happiness is going to come from getting to the finish going to come from getting to the finish going to come from getting to the finish line, you're you're you're get you're line, you're you're you're get you're line, you're you're you're get you're going to be in a world of hurt. This is going to be in a world of hurt. This is going to be in a world of hurt. This is one of the reasons that Olympic one of the reasons that Olympic one of the reasons that Olympic athletes, they typically suffer a athletes, they typically suffer a athletes, they typically suffer a clinical depression after they win the clinical depression after they win the clinical depression after they win the Olympic gold. It's because it's like Olympic gold. It's because it's like Olympic gold. It's because it's like it's going to be so good. But that it's going to be so good. But that it's going to be so good. But that misapprehends how the lyic system misapprehends how the lyic system misapprehends how the lyic system actually manages emotional systems. We actually manages emotional systems. We actually manages emotional systems. We have emotions for no other reason than have emotions for no other reason than have emotions for no other reason than their an alarm system that we've their an alarm system that we've their an alarm system that we've ascertained a threat or an opportunity. ascertained a threat or an opportunity. ascertained a threat or an opportunity. Negative emotions say, "Look out. You've Negative emotions say, "Look out. You've Negative emotions say, "Look out. You've just perceived a threat. I'm going to just perceived a threat. I'm going to just perceived a threat. I'm going to give you negative emotionality so that give you negative emotionality so that give you negative emotionality so that you'll be averse to that threat." Fear, you'll be averse to that threat." Fear, you'll be averse to that threat." Fear, anger, disgust, sadness. Positive anger, disgust, sadness. Positive anger, disgust, sadness. Positive emotions, joy, interest, surprise. Say, emotions, joy, interest, surprise. Say, emotions, joy, interest, surprise. Say, "I've just alerted you to a possibility "I've just alerted you to a possibility "I've just alerted you to a possibility of of getting a mate, having, you know, of of getting a mate, having, you know, of of getting a mate, having, you know, getting calories, survival, etc." And getting calories, survival, etc." And getting calories, survival, etc." And so, I'm going to give you the incentive so, I'm going to give you the incentive so, I'm going to give you the incentive to approach is what it comes down to. If to approach is what it comes down to. If to approach is what it comes down to. If you think that your emotions exist to you think that your emotions exist to you think that your emotions exist to give you a permanently good day, when give you a permanently good day, when give you a permanently good day, when you win the Olympic gold, when you win you win the Olympic gold, when you win you win the Olympic gold, when you win that race, when you get that billion that race, when you get that billion that race, when you get that billion dollars, when you finish what you're dollars, when you finish what you're dollars, when you finish what you're trying to start as a human being, you're trying to start as a human being, you're trying to start as a human being, you're going to be in a a lot of trouble. What going to be in a a lot of trouble. What going to be in a a lot of trouble. What you need to do is to make progress in you need to do is to make progress in you need to do is to make progress in your life toward goals. But you got to your life toward goals. But you got to your life toward goals. But you got to have the goals, and that's purpose. have the goals, and that's purpose. have the goals, and that's purpose. It is an intractable problem because I'm It is an intractable problem because I'm It is an intractable problem because I'm sure every uh athlete who's striving for sure every uh athlete who's striving for sure every uh athlete who's striving for an Olympic gold medal will say sure I an Olympic gold medal will say sure I an Olympic gold medal will say sure I know that you know deep down though do know that you know deep down though do know that you know deep down though do they you know it's sort of like self they you know it's sort of like self they you know it's sort of like self aware it's again a self-awareness thing. aware it's again a self-awareness thing. aware it's again a self-awareness thing. It's like yeah I'm I'm aware that like It's like yeah I'm I'm aware that like It's like yeah I'm I'm aware that like life will continue after this but still life will continue after this but still life will continue after this but still I'm going to go for this and maybe you I'm going to go for this and maybe you I'm going to go for this and maybe you know on some level like I I do believe know on some level like I I do believe know on some level like I I do believe that like my life will be permanently that like my life will be permanently that like my life will be permanently better. better. better. >> Yeah. That's cuz mother nature's lying. >> Yeah. That's cuz mother nature's lying. >> Yeah. That's cuz mother nature's lying. Mother nature lies to us all the time. Mother nature lies to us all the time. Mother nature lies to us all the time. Mother nature wants us to make the Mother nature wants us to make the Mother nature wants us to make the mistake of believing that when we hit mistake of believing that when we hit mistake of believing that when we hit the goal, all will be well because the goal, all will be well because the goal, all will be well because that's how we stay in the stay in the that's how we stay in the stay in the that's how we stay in the stay in the hunt. I mean, if you actually figured it hunt. I mean, if you actually figured it hunt. I mean, if you actually figured it out, if you actually figured it out that out, if you actually figured it out that out, if you actually figured it out that you can't it's not that you can't get no you can't it's not that you can't get no you can't it's not that you can't get no satisfaction, you can't keep no satisfaction, you can't keep no satisfaction, you can't keep no satisfaction for more than like a satisfaction for more than like a satisfaction for more than like a minute. minute. minute. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You'd stop trying and you'd you'd starve >> You'd stop trying and you'd you'd starve >> You'd stop trying and you'd you'd starve to death. You know, you get hunted down to death. You know, you get hunted down to death. You know, you get hunted down summarily by some wild animal at least summarily by some wild animal at least summarily by some wild animal at least in the plea scene. And so the result is in the plea scene. And so the result is in the plea scene. And so the result is that mother nature, your your your that mother nature, your your your that mother nature, your your your ancestors passed on their genes because ancestors passed on their genes because ancestors passed on their genes because they were strivvers and they were they were strivvers and they were they were strivvers and they were strivvers because they thought that they strivvers because they thought that they strivvers because they thought that they would keep satisfaction from hitting would keep satisfaction from hitting would keep satisfaction from hitting that goal and then when they didn't, that goal and then when they didn't, that goal and then when they didn't, they got back in the hunt again. But but they got back in the hunt again. But but they got back in the hunt again. But but that's and that's not the secret to that's and that's not the secret to that's and that's not the secret to survival, but it is the secret to survival, but it is the secret to survival, but it is the secret to happiness is understanding that. one of happiness is understanding that. one of happiness is understanding that. one of the great secrets, the great secrets, the great secrets, >> but this is a Coenesque sort of thing >> but this is a Coenesque sort of thing >> but this is a Coenesque sort of thing because uh we need we need we need because uh we need we need we need because uh we need we need we need goals. We need things that we're working goals. We need things that we're working goals. We need things that we're working towards that we're engaged with. U but towards that we're engaged with. U but towards that we're engaged with. U but we can't be caught up in the we can't be caught up in the we can't be caught up in the externalities of those and what those externalities of those and what those externalities of those and what those will do for us when we achieve them or will do for us when we achieve them or will do for us when we achieve them or fall short of them. fall short of them. fall short of them. >> Yeah. The Buddhist solution to this is >> Yeah. The Buddhist solution to this is >> Yeah. The Buddhist solution to this is called intention without attachment. So called intention without attachment. So called intention without attachment. So the whole idea is in sailing there's a the whole idea is in sailing there's a the whole idea is in sailing there's a there's a concept. It's a very it's a there's a concept. It's a very it's a there's a concept. It's a very it's a it's a really common word in Spanish. it's a really common word in Spanish. it's a really common word in Spanish. Elbow roombo means in in English is Elbow roombo means in in English is Elbow roombo means in in English is called the rum line. R H u m the rum called the rum line. R H u m the rum called the rum line. R H u m the rum line which is the the uklitian distance line which is the the uklitian distance line which is the the uklitian distance between where you are and where you want between where you are and where you want between where you are and where you want to go. You have to establish that such to go. You have to establish that such to go. You have to establish that such that you can make progress toward your that you can make progress toward your that you can make progress toward your goal. You can't start sailing and maybe goal. You can't start sailing and maybe goal. You can't start sailing and maybe it's America. I don't know maybe it's it's America. I don't know maybe it's it's America. I don't know maybe it's India. Um, so you need the rum line, but India. Um, so you need the rum line, but India. Um, so you need the rum line, but that's a very important idea in life. that's a very important idea in life. that's a very important idea in life. The problem is that if you're only The problem is that if you're only The problem is that if you're only attached to the end point, to the last attached to the end point, to the last attached to the end point, to the last the pin at the end of the piece of yarn, the pin at the end of the piece of yarn, the pin at the end of the piece of yarn, then life will become an exercise in then life will become an exercise in then life will become an exercise in futility for you. You need to have futility for you. You need to have futility for you. You need to have intention or you're not going to be able intention or you're not going to be able intention or you're not going to be able to make progress. But you have to have to make progress. But you have to have to make progress. But you have to have detachment from actually getting there. detachment from actually getting there. detachment from actually getting there. It might be It might be It might be >> India. It might be Hispanola. >> India. It might be Hispanola. >> India. It might be Hispanola. But I'm going in this particular But I'm going in this particular But I'm going in this particular direction so that I can actually make direction so that I can actually make direction so that I can actually make progress in my life. And that's the progress in my life. And that's the progress in my life. And that's the trick. That's the trick is actually trick. That's the trick is actually trick. That's the trick is actually figuring out how to have the detachment figuring out how to have the detachment figuring out how to have the detachment to the goal while having intention to the goal while having intention to the goal while having intention toward it at the same time. toward it at the same time. toward it at the same time. >> So coherence, >> So coherence, >> So coherence, >> purpose, >> purpose, >> purpose, >> purpose, and now significance. >> purpose, and now significance. >> purpose, and now significance. >> Significance is why does my life matter? >> Significance is why does my life matter? >> Significance is why does my life matter? Why does my life matter and to whom? Why does my life matter and to whom? Why does my life matter and to whom? That's love is what it comes in. You That's love is what it comes in. You That's love is what it comes in. You people who are lonely, they have a lack people who are lonely, they have a lack people who are lonely, they have a lack of significance. People who have are of significance. People who have are of significance. People who have are bereft of of a belief that there is bereft of of a belief that there is bereft of of a belief that there is cosmic love, they they they they really cosmic love, they they they they really cosmic love, they they they they really lack significance. And so this is one of lack significance. And so this is one of lack significance. And so this is one of the reasons that people who don't have the reasons that people who don't have the reasons that people who don't have love relationships in their lives, who love relationships in their lives, who love relationships in their lives, who are too detached in no small part are too detached in no small part are too detached in no small part because of the misuse of technology, because of the misuse of technology, because of the misuse of technology, which is incredibly detaching for which is incredibly detaching for which is incredibly detaching for people. It's incredibly isolating for people. It's incredibly isolating for people. It's incredibly isolating for people. That's how it's one of the ways people. That's how it's one of the ways people. That's how it's one of the ways that that the misuse and overuse of that that the misuse and overuse of that that the misuse and overuse of technology. when it isolates people, it technology. when it isolates people, it technology. when it isolates people, it erodess their sense of meaning because erodess their sense of meaning because erodess their sense of meaning because of this last question, because of of this last question, because of of this last question, because of significance. If you, if I ask you, significance. If you, if I ask you, significance. If you, if I ask you, Rich, um, who loves you, what would you Rich, um, who loves you, what would you Rich, um, who loves you, what would you say? say? say? >> Uh, my wife and my kids. >> Uh, my wife and my kids. >> Uh, my wife and my kids. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My parents. >> My parents. >> My parents. >> Uh-huh. Anybody else? >> Uh-huh. Anybody else? >> Uh-huh. Anybody else? >> Some friends. >> Some friends. >> Some friends. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Close-knit group of friends. >> Close-knit group of friends. >> Close-knit group of friends. >> Do you feel feel love divine? >> Do you feel feel love divine? >> Do you feel feel love divine? >> Uh, that's a that's a that's a trickier >> Uh, that's a that's a that's a trickier >> Uh, that's a that's a that's a trickier one. I know. I'm working on it. one. I know. I'm working on it. one. I know. I'm working on it. >> It's a hard one. I know. I know it's a >> It's a hard one. I know. I know it's a >> It's a hard one. I know. I know it's a hard one. But the reason that that's an hard one. But the reason that that's an hard one. But the reason that that's an important question, not that you have to important question, not that you have to important question, not that you have to have an answer, is that living have an answer, is that living have an answer, is that living >> in the idea that you're a beloved child >> in the idea that you're a beloved child >> in the idea that you're a beloved child of the divine is a search for of the divine is a search for of the divine is a search for significance and therefore it's a search significance and therefore it's a search significance and therefore it's a search for meaning. And you're not going to for meaning. And you're not going to for meaning. And you're not going to answer it because I defy anybody, me answer it because I defy anybody, me answer it because I defy anybody, me included. Look, I'm a lifelong religious included. Look, I'm a lifelong religious included. Look, I'm a lifelong religious believer, but you know, it's like, show believer, but you know, it's like, show believer, but you know, it's like, show me proof that God exists and loves you. me proof that God exists and loves you. me proof that God exists and loves you. Sorry, that's not the way it works. That Sorry, that's not the way it works. That Sorry, that's not the way it works. That isn't the way that it works. But that's isn't the way that it works. But that's isn't the way that it works. But that's what we need to be thinking about. You what we need to be thinking about. You what we need to be thinking about. You need to have people and and and entities need to have people and and and entities need to have people and and and entities and and and and and and and and and um a world around you where there's um a world around you where there's um a world around you where there's significance, where there where your significance, where there where your significance, where there where your life actually matters. And that's the life actually matters. And that's the life actually matters. And that's the third part of meaning. third part of meaning. third part of meaning. >> I mean, this is the easiest on-ramp, it >> I mean, this is the easiest on-ramp, it >> I mean, this is the easiest on-ramp, it seems to me, for somebody who's seems to me, for somebody who's seems to me, for somebody who's struggling with this question of finding struggling with this question of finding struggling with this question of finding meaning in their life. begin with who meaning in their life. begin with who meaning in their life. begin with who are the people that are important to you are the people that are important to you are the people that are important to you and and uh the people for whom you are and and uh the people for whom you are and and uh the people for whom you are important and making a deeper investment important and making a deeper investment important and making a deeper investment in that is kind of an immediate catalyst in that is kind of an immediate catalyst in that is kind of an immediate catalyst towards meaning. towards meaning. towards meaning. >> Sure. That's that's the that's the >> Sure. That's that's the that's the >> Sure. That's that's the that's the number one way that people start to find number one way that people start to find number one way that people start to find the meaning of their life and when the meaning of their life and when the meaning of their life and when they're most lost is is actually it's they're most lost is is actually it's they're most lost is is actually it's one of the reasons that one of the great one of the reasons that one of the great one of the reasons that one of the great solutions to finding meaning of life is solutions to finding meaning of life is solutions to finding meaning of life is giving your heart away. That's one of giving your heart away. That's one of giving your heart away. That's one of the and which is the most complex thing the and which is the most complex thing the and which is the most complex thing is like again is like again is like again >> so now we're getting into the escape >> so now we're getting into the escape >> so now we're getting into the escape hatch to the matrix and you've got like hatch to the matrix and you've got like hatch to the matrix and you've got like these very practical series of of of these very practical series of of of these very practical series of of of strategies to uh find meaning in your strategies to uh find meaning in your strategies to uh find meaning in your life and the first of which the very life and the first of which the very life and the first of which the very first one that you you offer is this first one that you you offer is this first one that you you offer is this idea of giving your heart away. idea of giving your heart away. idea of giving your heart away. >> Yeah. Well before that of course is >> Yeah. Well before that of course is >> Yeah. Well before that of course is clipping the doom loop. You know you clipping the doom loop. You know you clipping the doom loop. You know you know the one of the things know the one of the things know the one of the things >> we talked about the tech and all that. >> we talked about the tech and all that. >> we talked about the tech and all that. So, when people are in recovery for So, when people are in recovery for So, when people are in recovery for substance abuse, um, they say, "Don't substance abuse, um, they say, "Don't substance abuse, um, they say, "Don't fall in love with the person sitting fall in love with the person sitting fall in love with the person sitting next to you in a 12step program." It's next to you in a 12step program." It's next to you in a 12step program." It's like, "First, let's get clean." like, "First, let's get clean." like, "First, let's get clean." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> First, let's get >> First, let's get >> First, let's get >> The hilarious thing in recovery, though, >> The hilarious thing in recovery, though, >> The hilarious thing in recovery, though, is that people come in and and you know, is that people come in and and you know, is that people come in and and you know, when when there's a bit of a pink cloud when when there's a bit of a pink cloud when when there's a bit of a pink cloud and they have a taste of sobriety, they and they have a taste of sobriety, they and they have a taste of sobriety, they want to solve all of their problems at want to solve all of their problems at want to solve all of their problems at the same time. And it's like, let's just the same time. And it's like, let's just the same time. And it's like, let's just deal with this, you know, or like or deal with this, you know, or like or deal with this, you know, or like or there's the case of the person who is there's the case of the person who is there's the case of the person who is still in some degree of denial and says, still in some degree of denial and says, still in some degree of denial and says, well, I don't, you know, like, well, I don't, you know, like, well, I don't, you know, like, >> yeah, it's not that big of a deal. I >> yeah, it's not that big of a deal. I >> yeah, it's not that big of a deal. I need to solve these other problems, not need to solve these other problems, not need to solve these other problems, not understanding that you you can't get off understanding that you you can't get off understanding that you you can't get off um you can't you can't even begin this um you can't you can't even begin this um you can't you can't even begin this journey until you resolve that issue. journey until you resolve that issue. journey until you resolve that issue. >> You got to get off the junk first. You >> You got to get off the junk first. You >> You got to get off the junk first. You you have to do that because that's you have to do that because that's you have to do that because that's what's actually hijacking. Remember, what's actually hijacking. Remember, what's actually hijacking. Remember, when you're in the doom loop, the when you're in the doom loop, the when you're in the doom loop, the solution to your problem is actually the solution to your problem is actually the solution to your problem is actually the cause of the greater problems. And you cause of the greater problems. And you cause of the greater problems. And you have to get out of the doom loop before have to get out of the doom loop before have to get out of the doom loop before you can actually live in a different you can actually live in a different you can actually live in a different way. That's what it comes down to. So way. That's what it comes down to. So way. That's what it comes down to. So once that's done a and then you're once that's done a and then you're once that's done a and then you're actually asking these questions, then actually asking these questions, then actually asking these questions, then the first very practical thing to do is the first very practical thing to do is the first very practical thing to do is to take the most complex risk of your to take the most complex risk of your to take the most complex risk of your life, which is to give your heart away. life, which is to give your heart away. life, which is to give your heart away. And and we have every incentive in And and we have every incentive in And and we have every incentive in modern life in the complexified modern life in the complexified modern life in the complexified technologized modern life pursuant technologized modern life pursuant technologized modern life pursuant especially to 2008 to not give your especially to 2008 to not give your especially to 2008 to not give your heart away to to not take risk. heart away to to not take risk. heart away to to not take risk. >> Risk is the funniest thing because risk >> Risk is the funniest thing because risk >> Risk is the funniest thing because risk is not about being fearless. Risk is is not about being fearless. Risk is is not about being fearless. Risk is about being incredibly fearful but being about being incredibly fearful but being about being incredibly fearful but being courageous. That's what it really comes courageous. That's what it really comes courageous. That's what it really comes down to. And and that's a very right down to. And and that's a very right down to. And and that's a very right brain thing is to be I'm afraid. I'm brain thing is to be I'm afraid. I'm brain thing is to be I'm afraid. I'm afraid. This is scary. This is dangerous afraid. This is scary. This is dangerous afraid. This is scary. This is dangerous and I'm going to do it anyway. That kind and I'm going to do it anyway. That kind and I'm going to do it anyway. That kind of cognitive dissonance, that tension is of cognitive dissonance, that tension is of cognitive dissonance, that tension is it leads to a whole lot of a sense of it leads to a whole lot of a sense of it leads to a whole lot of a sense of meaning. And the the most important one meaning. And the the most important one meaning. And the the most important one of those things is to do that thing that of those things is to do that thing that of those things is to do that thing that nobody really understands, which is nobody really understands, which is nobody really understands, which is falling in love. falling in love. falling in love. >> Yeah. I heard you say to Tim Ferrris >> Yeah. I heard you say to Tim Ferrris >> Yeah. I heard you say to Tim Ferrris like if you if you find somebody and you like if you if you find somebody and you like if you if you find somebody and you fall in love with them, you should marry fall in love with them, you should marry fall in love with them, you should marry them. them. them. >> He was like, whoa, >> not so fast. >> not so fast. >> That's a little reductionist. I will >> That's a little reductionist. I will >> That's a little reductionist. I will admit, admit, admit, >> but I think I think what you're getting >> but I think I think what you're getting >> but I think I think what you're getting at is an important point, which is at is an important point, which is at is an important point, which is >> the way that uh dating culture is now >> the way that uh dating culture is now >> the way that uh dating culture is now with scrolling and apps. It's just it's with scrolling and apps. It's just it's with scrolling and apps. It's just it's it's in it's infinite choice. it's in it's infinite choice. it's in it's infinite choice. >> And if you're, you know, if you're uh >> And if you're, you know, if you're uh >> And if you're, you know, if you're uh somebody who's in demand, there's somebody who's in demand, there's somebody who's in demand, there's absolutely no incentive to to commit to absolutely no incentive to to commit to absolutely no incentive to to commit to anybody. And so, you can just do this anybody. And so, you can just do this anybody. And so, you can just do this forever. But that is its own doom loop forever. But that is its own doom loop forever. But that is its own doom loop because you're it is a dopamine inducing because you're it is a dopamine inducing because you're it is a dopamine inducing thing. Like there's always somebody thing. Like there's always somebody thing. Like there's always somebody better on the next, you know, if I just better on the next, you know, if I just better on the next, you know, if I just keep moving my thumb up and down. keep moving my thumb up and down. keep moving my thumb up and down. >> Yeah, the paradox of choice is an >> Yeah, the paradox of choice is an >> Yeah, the paradox of choice is an absolute leftbrain complicated absolute leftbrain complicated absolute leftbrain complicated phenomenon where more more more more phenomenon where more more more more phenomenon where more more more more more and you're you're trying to more and you're you're trying to more and you're you're trying to basically solve a problem in a basically solve a problem in a basically solve a problem in a complicated way. If I actually look at complicated way. If I actually look at complicated way. If I actually look at enough people, then I'm going to I'm enough people, then I'm going to I'm enough people, then I'm going to I'm going to be able to optimize this. And going to be able to optimize this. And going to be able to optimize this. And that's actually not how it works at all. that's actually not how it works at all. that's actually not how it works at all. That is not how it works. You know, That is not how it works. You know, That is not how it works. You know, that's not how love works. You're not that's not how love works. You're not that's not how love works. You're not going to suddenly say, you know, in the going to suddenly say, you know, in the going to suddenly say, you know, in the 343rd person you find as you're swiping 343rd person you find as you're swiping 343rd person you find as you're swiping left or right that that person is your left or right that that person is your left or right that that person is your soulmate. That's not how it works. I soulmate. That's not how it works. I soulmate. That's not how it works. I mean, it's like you and Julie wouldn't mean, it's like you and Julie wouldn't mean, it's like you and Julie wouldn't have been together under the current have been together under the current have been together under the current technological circumstances, probably. technological circumstances, probably. technological circumstances, probably. >> I never would have. I mean, I I I >> I never would have. I mean, I I I >> I never would have. I mean, I I I married a girl who didn't even speak married a girl who didn't even speak married a girl who didn't even speak English. I didn't speak Spanish. There English. I didn't speak Spanish. There English. I didn't speak Spanish. There was something complex. I mean, if I'd was something complex. I mean, if I'd was something complex. I mean, if I'd set up a dating profile, be like, "Yeah, set up a dating profile, be like, "Yeah, set up a dating profile, be like, "Yeah, I got to make sure this is this person, I got to make sure this is this person, I got to make sure this is this person, you know, like really likes my kind of you know, like really likes my kind of you know, like really likes my kind of music and votes the way that I do and, music and votes the way that I do and, music and votes the way that I do and, you know, likes to eat Sriracha. I don't you know, likes to eat Sriracha. I don't you know, likes to eat Sriracha. I don't know, you know, whatever." You know, I'd know, you know, whatever." You know, I'd know, you know, whatever." You know, I'd be praying to date myself and man, be praying to date myself and man, be praying to date myself and man, that's not hot. There's nothing soulful that's not hot. There's nothing soulful that's not hot. There's nothing soulful in that at all. And I just ran into in a in that at all. And I just ran into in a in that at all. And I just ran into in a music festival in the Burgundy region of music festival in the Burgundy region of music festival in the Burgundy region of France a girl who' smiled at me and I France a girl who' smiled at me and I France a girl who' smiled at me and I said, "I don't God's talking to me. I said, "I don't God's talking to me. I said, "I don't God's talking to me. I don't understand, man." And we can't we don't understand, man." And we can't we don't understand, man." And we can't we couldn't even talk to each other. And I couldn't even talk to each other. And I couldn't even talk to each other. And I This is the before times. And I quit my This is the before times. And I quit my This is the before times. And I quit my job and moved to Spain to see if I could job and moved to Spain to see if I could job and moved to Spain to see if I could learn the language and close the deal learn the language and close the deal learn the language and close the deal with this girl that I just had the with this girl that I just had the with this girl that I just had the premonition. Right. That's pure right premonition. Right. That's pure right premonition. Right. That's pure right brain. At what point did she fly to Did brain. At what point did she fly to Did brain. At what point did she fly to Did she fly to New York? Like not knowing if she fly to New York? Like not knowing if she fly to New York? Like not knowing if you were going to even you were going to even you were going to even >> show up at the airport like there's no >> show up at the airport like there's no >> show up at the airport like there's no cell phones or anything like that? Like cell phones or anything like that? Like cell phones or anything like that? Like this is you know this is you know this is you know >> you guys were way out on a limb. >> you guys were way out on a limb. >> you guys were way out on a limb. >> Well, yeah. She's a pretty >> Well, yeah. She's a pretty >> Well, yeah. She's a pretty entrepreneurial person. Life is a entrepreneurial person. Life is a entrepreneurial person. Life is a startup I guess but startup I guess but startup I guess but >> putting capital at risk. But she had the >> putting capital at risk. But she had the >> putting capital at risk. But she had the sense too and we look at it now and and sense too and we look at it now and and sense too and we look at it now and and uh it's interesting because we've grown uh it's interesting because we've grown uh it's interesting because we've grown up together. I mean, I was 24 and she up together. I mean, I was 24 and she up together. I mean, I was 24 and she was 25. And um yeah, we met in in in was 25. And um yeah, we met in in in was 25. And um yeah, we met in in in Vjong at a wine tasting and we had an Vjong at a wine tasting and we had an Vjong at a wine tasting and we had an interpreter and we went out on a couple interpreter and we went out on a couple interpreter and we went out on a couple of dates and I went home, told my dad, I of dates and I went home, told my dad, I of dates and I went home, told my dad, I think I met the girl I'm going to marry think I met the girl I'm going to marry think I met the girl I'm going to marry and he's like, yeah, you're a hopeless and he's like, yeah, you're a hopeless and he's like, yeah, you're a hopeless romantic. romantic. romantic. >> And she came to visit me. I was living >> And she came to visit me. I was living >> And she came to visit me. I was living in New York City and she came to visit in New York City and she came to visit in New York City and she came to visit me that that Christmas and she she had me that that Christmas and she she had me that that Christmas and she she had been taking English lessons for 6 weeks been taking English lessons for 6 weeks been taking English lessons for 6 weeks since then or something. I don't know. since then or something. I don't know. since then or something. I don't know. We still couldn't talk to each other, We still couldn't talk to each other, We still couldn't talk to each other, but we were just comp we were just in but we were just comp we were just in but we were just comp we were just in love and we didn't know why and we love and we didn't know why and we love and we didn't know why and we didn't know why. And the right the didn't know why. And the right the didn't know why. And the right the answer is because we were one pulsating answer is because we were one pulsating answer is because we were one pulsating meta right hemisphere is what it came meta right hemisphere is what it came meta right hemisphere is what it came down to. There was no even if there were down to. There was no even if there were down to. There was no even if there were dating profiles hers would have been in dating profiles hers would have been in dating profiles hers would have been in Spanish or Catalan and mine would have Spanish or Catalan and mine would have Spanish or Catalan and mine would have been in English and we wouldn't have been in English and we wouldn't have been in English and we wouldn't have been able to even read them is the whole been able to even read them is the whole been able to even read them is the whole point. And so when solving for love you point. And so when solving for love you point. And so when solving for love you you've already lost. If you're trying to you've already lost. If you're trying to you've already lost. If you're trying to solve for love, you've already lost. solve for love, you've already lost. solve for love, you've already lost. understanding and living in love and understanding and living in love and understanding and living in love and taking risks and having your heart taking risks and having your heart taking risks and having your heart broken and trying again and learning. broken and trying again and learning. broken and trying again and learning. That's the way it's actually supposed to That's the way it's actually supposed to That's the way it's actually supposed to work. That's the way that we're that's work. That's the way that we're that's work. That's the way that we're that's the way we're evolved. It's a uh it's the way we're evolved. It's a uh it's the way we're evolved. It's a uh it's it's a it's a surrender. it's a it's a surrender. it's a it's a surrender. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's a form of surrender. you know, you >> It's a form of surrender. you know, you >> It's a form of surrender. you know, you can couch it as risk, but you are can couch it as risk, but you are can couch it as risk, but you are wagering yourself for another person, wagering yourself for another person, wagering yourself for another person, and there's there's just no way to know and there's there's just no way to know and there's there's just no way to know if it's going to work out. And trying if it's going to work out. And trying if it's going to work out. And trying to, you know, create a blueprint or uh a to, you know, create a blueprint or uh a to, you know, create a blueprint or uh a listical of pros and cons isn't really listical of pros and cons isn't really listical of pros and cons isn't really the way that it works. On some level, the way that it works. On some level, the way that it works. On some level, you take this incredible leap. you take this incredible leap. you take this incredible leap. >> Yeah, totally. And, you know, dating >> Yeah, totally. And, you know, dating >> Yeah, totally. And, you know, dating apps um are are a brand new thing. 62% apps um are are a brand new thing. 62% apps um are are a brand new thing. 62% of long-term relationships now start on of long-term relationships now start on of long-term relationships now start on dating apps, which is a lot. um they're dating apps, which is a lot. um they're dating apps, which is a lot. um they're getting better because now the really getting better because now the really getting better because now the really good ones are not trying to maximize good ones are not trying to maximize good ones are not trying to maximize time in app. They're trying to maximize time in app. They're trying to maximize time in app. They're trying to maximize time in person. It's basically it's time in person. It's basically it's time in person. It's basically it's actually how we meet each other. actually how we meet each other. actually how we meet each other. >> But it's important to understand that >> But it's important to understand that >> But it's important to understand that that that that human connection doesn't that that that human connection doesn't that that that human connection doesn't actually work that way. It's nothing actually work that way. It's nothing actually work that way. It's nothing more it should be nothing more than a more it should be nothing more than a more it should be nothing more than a tool of facilitation as opposed to a way tool of facilitation as opposed to a way tool of facilitation as opposed to a way to solve the problem. Much much worse, to solve the problem. Much much worse, to solve the problem. Much much worse, of course, is is algorithmic ways to of course, is is algorithmic ways to of course, is is algorithmic ways to strip um love to its component parts. strip um love to its component parts. strip um love to its component parts. And that and I'm talking about And that and I'm talking about And that and I'm talking about pornography of course that's really pornography of course that's really pornography of course that's really dangerous. That's a really really dangerous. That's a really really dangerous. That's a really really dangerous thing and and people get super dangerous thing and and people get super dangerous thing and and people get super addicted to it and it changes the brains addicted to it and it changes the brains addicted to it and it changes the brains and the whole thing. But most and the whole thing. But most and the whole thing. But most importantly it renders them incapable of importantly it renders them incapable of importantly it renders them incapable of the the the right brain metaphysical the the the right brain metaphysical the the the right brain metaphysical experience of romantic love experience of romantic love experience of romantic love >> because it's reducing it to an algorithm >> because it's reducing it to an algorithm >> because it's reducing it to an algorithm a digital algorithm and stripping it a digital algorithm and stripping it a digital algorithm and stripping it down to one of its component physical down to one of its component physical down to one of its component physical parts. That's a that's a that's not how parts. That's a that's a that's not how parts. That's a that's a that's not how we're supposed to that's not to be we're supposed to that's not to be we're supposed to that's not to be alive. alive. alive. >> Actually, if there's a silver lining in >> Actually, if there's a silver lining in >> Actually, if there's a silver lining in all of these technology advances that all of these technology advances that all of these technology advances that have us so hopelessly hooked, have us so hopelessly hooked, have us so hopelessly hooked, >> it's that the everyday average person >> it's that the everyday average person >> it's that the everyday average person has a better understanding of the nature has a better understanding of the nature has a better understanding of the nature of addiction than 20 years ago. Like it of addiction than 20 years ago. Like it of addiction than 20 years ago. Like it used to, you know, oh, you're an used to, you know, oh, you're an used to, you know, oh, you're an alcoholic or you're a drug addict and alcoholic or you're a drug addict and alcoholic or you're a drug addict and you know, like I don't, you know, you you know, like I don't, you know, you you know, like I don't, you know, you have this disease, you're not like me. have this disease, you're not like me. have this disease, you're not like me. But I think, you know, addiction is a is But I think, you know, addiction is a is But I think, you know, addiction is a is a spectrum condition and we're all on a spectrum condition and we're all on a spectrum condition and we're all on the spectrum and technology has really the spectrum and technology has really the spectrum and technology has really connected us with the idea of how easily connected us with the idea of how easily connected us with the idea of how easily our brains can get hijacked and we can, our brains can get hijacked and we can, our brains can get hijacked and we can, you know, start to cultivate these these you know, start to cultivate these these you know, start to cultivate these these obsessivempulsive behavior patterns that obsessivempulsive behavior patterns that obsessivempulsive behavior patterns that we lack agency over controlling. we lack agency over controlling. we lack agency over controlling. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, human >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, human >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, human ingenuity is an extraordinary thing. how ingenuity is an extraordinary thing. how ingenuity is an extraordinary thing. how many problems we've solved, but also many problems we've solved, but also many problems we've solved, but also almost all of the problems that were almost all of the problems that were almost all of the problems that were little that we've turned into major little that we've turned into major little that we've turned into major crises. It's has to do with wanting, crises. It's has to do with wanting, crises. It's has to do with wanting, learning, and liking, which is to say learning, and liking, which is to say learning, and liking, which is to say the neurobiology of addiction. the neurobiology of addiction. the neurobiology of addiction. >> You know, we we think about it, you >> You know, we we think about it, you >> You know, we we think about it, you know, it's like I have a little bit of know, it's like I have a little bit of know, it's like I have a little bit of pain. Well, I figured out that I can pain. Well, I figured out that I can pain. Well, I figured out that I can create an analesic by eating some bark create an analesic by eating some bark create an analesic by eating some bark off a tree. And then I made it better off a tree. And then I made it better off a tree. And then I made it better chemically by turning it into something chemically by turning it into something chemically by turning it into something a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. And hey, guess what? I can a narcotic And hey, guess what? I can a narcotic And hey, guess what? I can a narcotic drug, an opioid drug. This is drug, an opioid drug. This is drug, an opioid drug. This is unbelievable. And now 100,000 people are unbelievable. And now 100,000 people are unbelievable. And now 100,000 people are dying a year of opioid overdoses. You dying a year of opioid overdoses. You dying a year of opioid overdoses. You know, solving little problems and know, solving little problems and know, solving little problems and creating huge problems. And a classic creating huge problems. And a classic creating huge problems. And a classic case of this is that case of this is that case of this is that >> this is the human condition. I know. I >> this is the human condition. I know. I >> this is the human condition. I know. I mean, we just stumble into these things, mean, we just stumble into these things, mean, we just stumble into these things, you know, even with the best of you know, even with the best of you know, even with the best of intentions and create larger problems intentions and create larger problems intentions and create larger problems every single time. every single time. every single time. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the classic >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the classic >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the classic case of this in the in in in technology case of this in the in in in technology case of this in the in in in technology is boredom. We we need to be bored. Our is boredom. We we need to be bored. Our is boredom. We we need to be bored. Our brains need to be bored. The default brains need to be bored. The default brains need to be bored. The default mode network of structures in our brain mode network of structures in our brain mode network of structures in our brain actually is completely necessary for actually is completely necessary for actually is completely necessary for finding and understanding who we are and finding and understanding who we are and finding and understanding who we are and the meaning of our lives. But it's the meaning of our lives. But it's the meaning of our lives. But it's uncomfortable and mother nature doesn't uncomfortable and mother nature doesn't uncomfortable and mother nature doesn't care if it's uncomfortable because care if it's uncomfortable because care if it's uncomfortable because nobody could ever do anything about it nobody could ever do anything about it nobody could ever do anything about it again. You know, the great granddad was again. You know, the great granddad was again. You know, the great granddad was bored a lot. And he didn't he didn't bored a lot. And he didn't he didn't bored a lot. And he didn't he didn't say, "Boy, I sure love being bored say, "Boy, I sure love being bored say, "Boy, I sure love being bored behind the mule, you know, because my my behind the mule, you know, because my my behind the mule, you know, because my my boring job is so meaningful." No, but boring job is so meaningful." No, but boring job is so meaningful." No, but his brain was working in the way it was his brain was working in the way it was his brain was working in the way it was supposed to. And you know my my supposed to. And you know my my supposed to. And you know my my colleague Dan Gilbert at Harvard. You colleague Dan Gilbert at Harvard. You colleague Dan Gilbert at Harvard. You ever have you had him on the on the ever have you had him on the on the ever have you had him on the on the podcast? He's podcast? He's podcast? He's >> I'm familiar with him though. >> I'm familiar with him though. >> I'm familiar with him though. >> Visionary social psychologist. He's the >> Visionary social psychologist. He's the >> Visionary social psychologist. He's the world's leading expert in boredom. He world's leading expert in boredom. He world's leading expert in boredom. He did these boredom experiments. You know did these boredom experiments. You know did these boredom experiments. You know the boredom experiment? the boredom experiment? the boredom experiment? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> They're awesome. >> They're awesome. >> They're awesome. >> You bring a bunch of undergraduates into >> You bring a bunch of undergraduates into >> You bring a bunch of undergraduates into the lab because they'll do anything for the lab because they'll do anything for the lab because they'll do anything for 20 bucks, right? And you and you put 20 bucks, right? And you and you put 20 bucks, right? And you and you put them in a room where there's nothing to them in a room where there's nothing to them in a room where there's nothing to do just a chair 15 minutes. You have to do just a chair 15 minutes. You have to do just a chair 15 minutes. You have to sit there silence in a chair. There's sit there silence in a chair. There's sit there silence in a chair. There's one possibility. He gives you a key fob one possibility. He gives you a key fob one possibility. He gives you a key fob and it has a little button and if you and it has a little button and if you and it has a little button and if you press the button you self- administer a press the button you self- administer a press the button you self- administer a painful electric shock. Right. So, and painful electric shock. Right. So, and painful electric shock. Right. So, and he wants to know pain or boredom and a he wants to know pain or boredom and a he wants to know pain or boredom and a quarter of the women shock themselves. quarter of the women shock themselves. quarter of the women shock themselves. >> Twothirds of the dudes shocked >> Twothirds of the dudes shocked >> Twothirds of the dudes shocked themselves. themselves. themselves. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cuz men are way worse than boredom. >> Cuz men are way worse than boredom. >> Cuz men are way worse than boredom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so they prefer One guy shocked >> And so they prefer One guy shocked >> And so they prefer One guy shocked himself 190 times in 15 minutes. He got himself 190 times in 15 minutes. He got himself 190 times in 15 minutes. He got thrown out of the experiment because thrown out of the experiment because thrown out of the experiment because he's a sick and twisted freak. So he's a sick and twisted freak. So he's a sick and twisted freak. So anyway, you get the point that that we anyway, you get the point that that we anyway, you get the point that that we we solve the boredom problem. The the we solve the boredom problem. The the we solve the boredom problem. The the the the screen, the small screen in your the the screen, the small screen in your the the screen, the small screen in your pocket is the solution to the boredom pocket is the solution to the boredom pocket is the solution to the boredom problem. But you need to be bored just problem. But you need to be bored just problem. But you need to be bored just like you need that headache, just like like you need that headache, just like like you need that headache, just like you need the discomfort. you need the discomfort. you need the discomfort. >> And our our relentless ingenious search >> And our our relentless ingenious search >> And our our relentless ingenious search to wipe out the little dis discomforts to wipe out the little dis discomforts to wipe out the little dis discomforts from life lead to these problems. And from life lead to these problems. And from life lead to these problems. And and and what we're seeing today, the and and what we're seeing today, the and and what we're seeing today, the meaning crisis is just another example meaning crisis is just another example meaning crisis is just another example of the same thing we've always done. of the same thing we've always done. of the same thing we've always done. Have you seen this uh trend called raw Have you seen this uh trend called raw Have you seen this uh trend called raw dogging flights? dogging flights? dogging flights? >> Flights. >> Flights. >> Flights. >> It's interesting that this is now like >> It's interesting that this is now like >> It's interesting that this is now like an act of courage and valor, you know, an act of courage and valor, you know, an act of courage and valor, you know, to like sit on an airplane and do to like sit on an airplane and do to like sit on an airplane and do nothing. nothing. nothing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um terrifying, you know, like oh my, you >> Um terrifying, you know, like oh my, you >> Um terrifying, you know, like oh my, you don't have you didn't stack up your iPad don't have you didn't stack up your iPad don't have you didn't stack up your iPad with all kinds of movies or bring a with all kinds of movies or bring a with all kinds of movies or bring a bunch of books. bunch of books. bunch of books. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> but it is cool that like, yeah, I'm >> but it is cool that like, yeah, I'm >> but it is cool that like, yeah, I'm going to do this. I'm I'm I'm voting for going to do this. I'm I'm I'm voting for going to do this. I'm I'm I'm voting for my boredom because it's important. my boredom because it's important. my boredom because it's important. There's a there's a performative aspect There's a there's a performative aspect There's a there's a performative aspect to it, I suppose. to it, I suppose. to it, I suppose. >> And at the same time, >> And at the same time, >> And at the same time, >> the bar's never been lower to kind of >> the bar's never been lower to kind of >> the bar's never been lower to kind of outpace your peers because everyone's so outpace your peers because everyone's so outpace your peers because everyone's so distracted. So, if you can just purchase distracted. So, if you can just purchase distracted. So, if you can just purchase a modicum of of you know, kind of a modicum of of you know, kind of a modicum of of you know, kind of silence and serenity for deep work and silence and serenity for deep work and silence and serenity for deep work and focus, you're at such an an focus, you're at such an an focus, you're at such an an extraordinary advantage in comparison to extraordinary advantage in comparison to extraordinary advantage in comparison to everybody else. everybody else. everybody else. >> That's right. Now, when you gamify it, >> That's right. Now, when you gamify it, >> That's right. Now, when you gamify it, it may actually be a leftwing leftrain it may actually be a leftwing leftrain it may actually be a leftwing leftrain solution to a rightbrain problem. solution to a rightbrain problem. solution to a rightbrain problem. >> Um, you know, one of my students, I >> Um, you know, one of my students, I >> Um, you know, one of my students, I mean, I I teach at HBS and so they're mean, I I teach at HBS and so they're mean, I I teach at HBS and so they're really really competitive. They're really really competitive. They're really really competitive. They're awesome. They're super smart. And I'm awesome. They're super smart. And I'm awesome. They're super smart. And I'm talking about boredom and how the talking about boredom and how the talking about boredom and how the default mode networks works. And we're, default mode networks works. And we're, default mode networks works. And we're, you know, we're working at brain scans you know, we're working at brain scans you know, we're working at brain scans and the whole thing is and the whole thing is and the whole thing is >> I'm going to use my left brain to to >> I'm going to use my left brain to to >> I'm going to use my left brain to to activate my right brain. activate my right brain. activate my right brain. >> I'm going to become great at boredom. >> I'm going to become great at boredom. >> I'm going to become great at boredom. You know, it's like I'm going to become You know, it's like I'm going to become You know, it's like I'm going to become the best at boredom, you know, for the best at boredom, you know, for the best at boredom, you know, for example. And the whole point is that example. And the whole point is that example. And the whole point is that that life is supposed to just naturally that life is supposed to just naturally that life is supposed to just naturally have boredom in it. And there should be have boredom in it. And there should be have boredom in it. And there should be these moments where of stillness and and these moments where of stillness and and these moments where of stillness and and to the extent that we've gotten out of to the extent that we've gotten out of to the extent that we've gotten out of the practice of that, we can't we can't the practice of that, we can't we can't the practice of that, we can't we can't cope with it. We can't we can't tolerate cope with it. We can't we can't tolerate cope with it. We can't we can't tolerate it. it. it. >> Our tolerance for that has actually gone >> Our tolerance for that has actually gone >> Our tolerance for that has actually gone down. And as it has done so, of course, down. And as it has done so, of course, down. And as it has done so, of course, the the collateral damage the the collateral damage the the collateral damage >> has been has been extensive. >> has been has been extensive. >> has been has been extensive. >> There is this thing that happens at out >> There is this thing that happens at out >> There is this thing that happens at out of town events. you're on from the of town events. you're on from the of town events. you're on from the moment you arrive until you leave, which moment you arrive until you leave, which moment you arrive until you leave, which is great, but it's also a lot. I hosted is great, but it's also a lot. I hosted is great, but it's also a lot. I hosted this great conversation with Sanjay this great conversation with Sanjay this great conversation with Sanjay Gupta about pain. And what I realized Gupta about pain. And what I realized Gupta about pain. And what I realized was that all the running around, the was that all the running around, the was that all the running around, the life, I found myself craving just space life, I found myself craving just space life, I found myself craving just space to decompress. Not a cramped hotel room, to decompress. Not a cramped hotel room, to decompress. Not a cramped hotel room, but actual space. somewhere with a but actual space. somewhere with a but actual space. somewhere with a kitchen where you can make your own kitchen where you can make your own kitchen where you can make your own meals, coffee in the morning, a living meals, coffee in the morning, a living meals, coffee in the morning, a living room where you can sit quietly, spread room where you can sit quietly, spread room where you can sit quietly, spread out a bit, let things settle before the out a bit, let things settle before the out a bit, let things settle before the next thing. These are things I look for next thing. These are things I look for next thing. These are things I look for when booking a stay on Airbnb. And the when booking a stay on Airbnb. And the when booking a stay on Airbnb. And the thing is, when you're away on trips like thing is, when you're away on trips like thing is, when you're away on trips like that, your home is just sitting there that, your home is just sitting there that, your home is just sitting there empty when it could be offering someone empty when it could be offering someone empty when it could be offering someone else that same kind of refuge, that else that same kind of refuge, that else that same kind of refuge, that space to actually be present in a place space to actually be present in a place space to actually be present in a place instead of just rushing through it. So, instead of just rushing through it. So, instead of just rushing through it. So, the next time you're planning a trip, the next time you're planning a trip, the next time you're planning a trip, consider hosting your home on Airbnb and consider hosting your home on Airbnb and consider hosting your home on Airbnb and giving someone else the comforts you giving someone else the comforts you giving someone else the comforts you look for when you travel. And the extra look for when you travel. And the extra look for when you travel. And the extra income that can be put towards a future income that can be put towards a future income that can be put towards a future trip or a home improvement project. Your trip or a home improvement project. Your trip or a home improvement project. Your home might be worth more than you think. home might be worth more than you think. home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. As some of you know, I am in a very As some of you know, I am in a very different season of training than I've different season of training than I've different season of training than I've ever been in before. I'm rebuilding ever been in before. I'm rebuilding ever been in before. I'm rebuilding slowly, intentionally after this spinal slowly, intentionally after this spinal slowly, intentionally after this spinal fusion surgery that I underwent this fusion surgery that I underwent this fusion surgery that I underwent this past May. And I'm learning what it means past May. And I'm learning what it means past May. And I'm learning what it means to be patient with my fitness and how to to be patient with my fitness and how to to be patient with my fitness and how to prioritize sustainability over prioritize sustainability over prioritize sustainability over intensity. And I got to say that Whoop, intensity. And I got to say that Whoop, intensity. And I got to say that Whoop, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 0 specifically my new Whoop 4.0 0 specifically my new Whoop 4.0 0 wearable. This thing you always see on wearable. This thing you always see on wearable. This thing you always see on my wrist right here. Uh has been this my wrist right here. Uh has been this my wrist right here. Uh has been this just enormously helpful companion in just enormously helpful companion in just enormously helpful companion in this process. It's a screenless wearable this process. It's a screenless wearable this process. It's a screenless wearable health and fitness coach that gives me health and fitness coach that gives me health and fitness coach that gives me personalized insights into my sleep, personalized insights into my sleep, personalized insights into my sleep, into my recovery, my strain, and my into my recovery, my strain, and my into my recovery, my strain, and my overall health, helping me to really overall health, helping me to really overall health, helping me to really understand what my body is actually understand what my body is actually understand what my body is actually ready for on any given day. And that ready for on any given day. And that ready for on any given day. And that awareness is what is helping me really awareness is what is helping me really awareness is what is helping me really stay focused and consistent, which is stay focused and consistent, which is stay focused and consistent, which is essentially everything right now. I do essentially everything right now. I do essentially everything right now. I do have some meaningful goals ahead. I am have some meaningful goals ahead. I am have some meaningful goals ahead. I am very intentional about getting back to very intentional about getting back to very intentional about getting back to pain-free running and hopefully lining pain-free running and hopefully lining pain-free running and hopefully lining up for the New York City Marathon to up for the New York City Marathon to up for the New York City Marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. And Whoop is helping me make the best And Whoop is helping me make the best And Whoop is helping me make the best decisions that are moving me the most decisions that are moving me the most decisions that are moving me the most expeditiously forward toward those expeditiously forward toward those expeditiously forward toward those moments with uh greater results and moments with uh greater results and moments with uh greater results and intention. So I would suggest that you intention. So I would suggest that you intention. So I would suggest that you check it out. Go to join.woop.com/roll check it out. Go to join.woop.com/roll check it out. Go to join.woop.com/roll for one month free of Whoop. The other uh aspect of this giving your The other uh aspect of this giving your heart away idea isn't just uh expressing heart away idea isn't just uh expressing heart away idea isn't just uh expressing your love, you know, wagering your love, your love, you know, wagering your love, your love, you know, wagering your love, taking a risk on love. It's also taking taking a risk on love. It's also taking taking a risk on love. It's also taking the risk of accepting love. the risk of accepting love. the risk of accepting love. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Receiving it. And you know, that can be >> Receiving it. And you know, that can be >> Receiving it. And you know, that can be for a lot of people, and I I would for a lot of people, and I I would for a lot of people, and I I would include myself in this, like more include myself in this, like more include myself in this, like more difficult than the giving piece. difficult than the giving piece. difficult than the giving piece. >> Yeah. It it really is. And you know the >> Yeah. It it really is. And you know the >> Yeah. It it really is. And you know the the greatest act of love that you can the greatest act of love that you can the greatest act of love that you can give somebody else is giving them an give somebody else is giving them an give somebody else is giving them an opportunity to be their best selves. And opportunity to be their best selves. And opportunity to be their best selves. And that means you have to you have to take that means you have to you have to take that means you have to you have to take their love. You have to give them an their love. You have to give them an their love. You have to give them an opportunity to love you. The greatest opportunity to love you. The greatest opportunity to love you. The greatest act of selfishness is never allowing act of selfishness is never allowing act of selfishness is never allowing somebody to serve you. Never allowing somebody to serve you. Never allowing somebody to serve you. Never allowing somebody to love you. And and people do somebody to love you. And and people do somebody to love you. And and people do this all the time, you know, for all this all the time, you know, for all this all the time, you know, for all sorts of reasons. sorts of reasons. sorts of reasons. >> What is the source code behind the >> What is the source code behind the >> What is the source code behind the resistance to that? resistance to that? resistance to that? Part of it is I mean the source code Part of it is I mean the source code Part of it is I mean the source code behind the resistance to that is that behind the resistance to that is that behind the resistance to that is that that the love that we're expressing to that the love that we're expressing to that the love that we're expressing to other people is yeah I wouldn't say that other people is yeah I wouldn't say that other people is yeah I wouldn't say that it's performative but I think it's it's performative but I think it's it's performative but I think it's proforma I think it becomes a kind of a proforma I think it becomes a kind of a proforma I think it becomes a kind of a proform the person that I want this is proform the person that I want this is proform the person that I want this is the person that I should be it's love is the person that I should be it's love is the person that I should be it's love is duty as opposed to love is the the as duty as opposed to love is the the as duty as opposed to love is the the as the code of metaphysics the code of metaphysics the code of metaphysics >> love is circulatory like blood and if >> love is circulatory like blood and if >> love is circulatory like blood and if stop it because you give it but you stop it because you give it but you stop it because you give it but you don't take it, it coagulates and it don't take it, it coagulates and it don't take it, it coagulates and it becomes um unhelpful. It becomes it becomes um unhelpful. It becomes it becomes um unhelpful. It becomes it becomes dangerous as a matter of fact. becomes dangerous as a matter of fact. becomes dangerous as a matter of fact. And the most selfish people that I've And the most selfish people that I've And the most selfish people that I've ever met are the ones who don't allow ever met are the ones who don't allow ever met are the ones who don't allow themselves to be loved. They're the ones themselves to be loved. They're the ones themselves to be loved. They're the ones who will act in a very kind way toward who will act in a very kind way toward who will act in a very kind way toward other people, but ultimately they close other people, but ultimately they close other people, but ultimately they close themselves off. They're isolated from themselves off. They're isolated from themselves off. They're isolated from that. And that's a that's a that. And that's a that's a that. And that's a that's a misunderstanding of what love actually misunderstanding of what love actually misunderstanding of what love actually is. is. is. >> Beneath the surface, I would imagine >> Beneath the surface, I would imagine >> Beneath the surface, I would imagine it's often driven by a sense of of it's often driven by a sense of of it's often driven by a sense of of undeservedness. undeservedness. undeservedness. Um or a fear uh a fear of vulnerability Um or a fear uh a fear of vulnerability Um or a fear uh a fear of vulnerability like if I actually let this person know like if I actually let this person know like if I actually let this person know who I am, they would see how how you who I am, they would see how how you who I am, they would see how how you know how terrible I am or you know I know how terrible I am or you know I know how terrible I am or you know I can't possibly can't possibly can't possibly >> be honest with this person. So I can >> be honest with this person. So I can >> be honest with this person. So I can love them in my own way and I suppose love them in my own way and I suppose love them in my own way and I suppose allow them to love me to some extent but allow them to love me to some extent but allow them to love me to some extent but it's you know the the there's there's it's you know the the there's there's it's you know the the there's there's always like a veneer of separation. always like a veneer of separation. always like a veneer of separation. >> Yeah. I mean, let's get back to the >> Yeah. I mean, let's get back to the >> Yeah. I mean, let's get back to the strive dilemma because nobody listens strive dilemma because nobody listens strive dilemma because nobody listens listens to the Rich Roll podcast who's listens to the Rich Roll podcast who's listens to the Rich Roll podcast who's actually not a strive. Let's just say actually not a strive. Let's just say actually not a strive. Let's just say that we have you're heavily overindexed that we have you're heavily overindexed that we have you're heavily overindexed on striving individuals who are watching on striving individuals who are watching on striving individuals who are watching us and I admire that. But there's a us and I admire that. But there's a us and I admire that. But there's a particular pathology that actually comes particular pathology that actually comes particular pathology that actually comes into this about love. Um I see a lot of into this about love. Um I see a lot of into this about love. Um I see a lot of people who are, you know, heavily people who are, you know, heavily people who are, you know, heavily workaholic. Workcoholism is is is a workaholic. Workcoholism is is is a workaholic. Workcoholism is is is a downstream pathology. Behind it is downstream pathology. Behind it is downstream pathology. Behind it is success addiction. On your show, we've success addiction. On your show, we've success addiction. On your show, we've talked about it in the past and that talked about it in the past and that talked about it in the past and that really comes from you. You get dopamine really comes from you. You get dopamine really comes from you. You get dopamine from winning. Behind that is a pathology from winning. Behind that is a pathology from winning. Behind that is a pathology that that largely has to do with the way that that largely has to do with the way that that largely has to do with the way that you're raised. So almost every that you're raised. So almost every that you're raised. So almost every strive really hard charging successful strive really hard charging successful strive really hard charging successful individual. They have certain things in individual. They have certain things in individual. They have certain things in common in their childhood and they look common in their childhood and they look common in their childhood and they look something like this. You get attention something like this. You get attention something like this. You get attention and affection from adults when you do and affection from adults when you do and affection from adults when you do something well. A's in school, made the something well. A's in school, made the something well. A's in school, made the baseball team, first year in the baseball team, first year in the baseball team, first year in the orchestra. And so you learn something orchestra. And so you learn something orchestra. And so you learn something from that. That love is something that's from that. That love is something that's from that. That love is something that's earned. It's not a grace. It's not a earned. It's not a grace. It's not a earned. It's not a grace. It's not a free gift freely given. No, no, no. It's free gift freely given. No, no, no. It's free gift freely given. No, no, no. It's an earned commodity. And how do you earn an earned commodity. And how do you earn an earned commodity. And how do you earn it? By achieving. So therefore, you're it? By achieving. So therefore, you're it? By achieving. So therefore, you're not a human being. You're a human doing. not a human being. You're a human doing. not a human being. You're a human doing. And that's how you go through life. A And that's how you go through life. A And that's how you go through life. A lot of people are like this. A lot of lot of people are like this. A lot of lot of people are like this. A lot of men are like this. A lot of men ruin men are like this. A lot of men ruin men are like this. A lot of men ruin their marriages by trying to earn their their marriages by trying to earn their their marriages by trying to earn their wife's love. You can't earn your wife's wife's love. You can't earn your wife's wife's love. You can't earn your wife's love. It can't be done. You can only love. It can't be done. You can only love. It can't be done. You can only accept the grace of love freely given. accept the grace of love freely given. accept the grace of love freely given. And when you don't accept the grace And when you don't accept the grace And when you don't accept the grace freely given and you keep trying to earn freely given and you keep trying to earn freely given and you keep trying to earn it with your achievements and your hard it with your achievements and your hard it with your achievements and your hard work and your personal merit and work and your personal merit and work and your personal merit and responsibility, you drive her away. responsibility, you drive her away. responsibility, you drive her away. >> I'm a textbook case, Arthur. You know, >> I'm a textbook case, Arthur. You know, >> I'm a textbook case, Arthur. You know, you know that. you know that. you know that. >> I know. But >> I know. But >> I know. But >> I mean, when you say that, it's just >> I mean, when you say that, it's just >> I mean, when you say that, it's just like it's like literally you're you're like it's like literally you're you're like it's like literally you're you're writing the biography of my life. writing the biography of my life. writing the biography of my life. >> I know. I know. Me, too. Me, too. And >> I know. I know. Me, too. Me, too. And >> I know. I know. Me, too. Me, too. And it's just it's funny because, you know, it's just it's funny because, you know, it's just it's funny because, you know, and it's like I I have all these and it's like I I have all these and it's like I I have all these conversations with very very rich men, conversations with very very rich men, conversations with very very rich men, for example, and they'll say, they're for example, and they'll say, they're for example, and they'll say, they're their wives. Um I it's like you you their wives. Um I it's like you you their wives. Um I it's like you you don't want me to work. You don't you don't want me to work. You don't you don't want me to work. You don't you want me to be around all the time, but I want me to be around all the time, but I want me to be around all the time, but I notice you like what we can do with all notice you like what we can do with all notice you like what we can do with all this money. And the wife doesn't have this money. And the wife doesn't have this money. And the wife doesn't have quite the words to say what's on her quite the words to say what's on her quite the words to say what's on her heart, which is, I'd take you over the heart, which is, I'd take you over the heart, which is, I'd take you over the money, money, money, >> but if I can't have you, I will take the >> but if I can't have you, I will take the >> but if I can't have you, I will take the money. money. money. >> You see, this is a this is a paradox. >> You see, this is a this is a paradox. >> You see, this is a this is a paradox. That's its own kind of doom loop. It's a That's its own kind of doom loop. It's a That's its own kind of doom loop. It's a catch 22 that we're actually in. I was catch 22 that we're actually in. I was catch 22 that we're actually in. I was talking to a friend u very very wealthy talking to a friend u very very wealthy talking to a friend u very very wealthy really really really super successful in really really really super successful in really really really super successful in this industry billionaire and um and and this industry billionaire and um and and this industry billionaire and um and and I said cuz he was he grew up without I said cuz he was he grew up without I said cuz he was he grew up without nice things as they say and he knew when nice things as they say and he knew when nice things as they say and he knew when he was in his early 30s that things were he was in his early 30s that things were he was in his early 30s that things were going well for him and he was going to going well for him and he was going to going well for him and he was going to get rich. He wasn't rich yet, but he get rich. He wasn't rich yet, but he get rich. He wasn't rich yet, but he knew he was going to get rich. And it's knew he was going to get rich. And it's knew he was going to get rich. And it's a really interesting thing. We're close. a really interesting thing. We're close. a really interesting thing. We're close. And I said, And I said, And I said, >> "What did you think was going to happen >> "What did you think was going to happen >> "What did you think was going to happen and how your life was going to be better and how your life was going to be better and how your life was going to be better when you got rich?" And he thought about when you got rich?" And he thought about when you got rich?" And he thought about it and he you know he said he said I it and he you know he said he said I it and he you know he said he said I thought my wife would love me thought my wife would love me thought my wife would love me and and I said what happened and and he and and I said what happened and and he and and I said what happened and and he said she didn't. said she didn't. said she didn't. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cuz that's not how love works. Can't be >> Cuz that's not how love works. Can't be >> Cuz that's not how love works. Can't be earned. It can't be earned. And and and earned. It can't be earned. And and and earned. It can't be earned. And and and again, you can know that, but you have again, you can know that, but you have again, you can know that, but you have to take the leap. You must take the to take the leap. You must take the to take the leap. You must take the leap. And and when you don't, it just leap. And and when you don't, it just leap. And and when you don't, it just means you're in another addictive cycle. means you're in another addictive cycle. means you're in another addictive cycle. >> Mhm. When I think about um my own >> Mhm. When I think about um my own >> Mhm. When I think about um my own relationship to this and and kind of relationship to this and and kind of relationship to this and and kind of where I'm at now, I mean, going all the where I'm at now, I mean, going all the where I'm at now, I mean, going all the way back to the macronutrients of way back to the macronutrients of way back to the macronutrients of happiness, like I'm I've got them happiness, like I'm I've got them happiness, like I'm I've got them covered except for the enjoyment part. covered except for the enjoyment part. covered except for the enjoyment part. You know what I mean? like You know what I mean? like You know what I mean? like >> I've got tons of meaning, you know, and >> I've got tons of meaning, you know, and >> I've got tons of meaning, you know, and I'm so grateful and feel so privileged I'm so grateful and feel so privileged I'm so grateful and feel so privileged to have this vocation that that is to have this vocation that that is to have this vocation that that is personally meaningful to me and is personally meaningful to me and is personally meaningful to me and is meaningful to other people and meaningful to other people and meaningful to other people and >> it's deeply satisfying and you know I >> it's deeply satisfying and you know I >> it's deeply satisfying and you know I get to wake up in the morning and and get to wake up in the morning and and get to wake up in the morning and and >> um sit down with someone like you and >> um sit down with someone like you and >> um sit down with someone like you and learn like it's just you know I I I learn like it's just you know I I I learn like it's just you know I I I can't imagine anything better. But I'm can't imagine anything better. But I'm can't imagine anything better. But I'm definitely a workaholic and even though definitely a workaholic and even though definitely a workaholic and even though I know after climbing many mountains and I know after climbing many mountains and I know after climbing many mountains and looking you know across the sum you know looking you know across the sum you know looking you know across the sum you know from the summit uh and seeing another from the summit uh and seeing another from the summit uh and seeing another mountain that I have to climb I know mountain that I have to climb I know mountain that I have to climb I know that climbing another mountain is not that climbing another mountain is not that climbing another mountain is not going to do anything for me. uh it might going to do anything for me. uh it might going to do anything for me. uh it might have some kind of short-term benefit, have some kind of short-term benefit, have some kind of short-term benefit, but ultimately and increasingly it's at but ultimately and increasingly it's at but ultimately and increasingly it's at cross-urposes with solving my cross-urposes with solving my cross-urposes with solving my fundamental problem or my bigger fundamental problem or my bigger fundamental problem or my bigger problem, which is finding a way to to problem, which is finding a way to to problem, which is finding a way to to enjoy this life that I work so hard to enjoy this life that I work so hard to enjoy this life that I work so hard to create. create. create. >> And I refuse to, you know, be a casualty >> And I refuse to, you know, be a casualty >> And I refuse to, you know, be a casualty of this dilemma. like I am so resolved of this dilemma. like I am so resolved of this dilemma. like I am so resolved to solving it and yet I continuously get to solving it and yet I continuously get to solving it and yet I continuously get in my own way you know because I wake up in my own way you know because I wake up in my own way you know because I wake up in the morning and you know there's my in the morning and you know there's my in the morning and you know there's my wife or there's an opportunity to do wife or there's an opportunity to do wife or there's an opportunity to do something that I know will bring greater something that I know will bring greater something that I know will bring greater enjoyment into my life and will serve enjoyment into my life and will serve enjoyment into my life and will serve this goal that I have but you know like this goal that I have but you know like this goal that I have but you know like man Arthur's going to be here at 11 and man Arthur's going to be here at 11 and man Arthur's going to be here at 11 and like I got you know I have so much prep like I got you know I have so much prep like I got you know I have so much prep I got to do you know like I can't let I got to do you know like I can't let I got to do you know like I can't let him down and off I go and I'm you know him down and off I go and I'm you know him down and off I go and I'm you know here in the studio before the sun has here in the studio before the sun has here in the studio before the sun has come up. come up. come up. >> And Stvers, one of the things that they >> And Stvers, one of the things that they >> And Stvers, one of the things that they have in common, and this is one of the have in common, and this is one of the have in common, and this is one of the characteristics, one of the diagnostic characteristics, one of the diagnostic characteristics, one of the diagnostic characteristics of the Strivevers characteristics of the Strivevers characteristics of the Strivevers dilemma is if it doesn't put points on dilemma is if it doesn't put points on dilemma is if it doesn't put points on the board, it doesn't count. So, for the board, it doesn't count. So, for the board, it doesn't count. So, for example, a lot of stvers, they wear they example, a lot of stvers, they wear they example, a lot of stvers, they wear they they they keep very close track of their they they keep very close track of their they they keep very close track of their biometrics, you know, that and and one biometrics, you know, that and and one biometrics, you know, that and and one of the things they're looking at, for of the things they're looking at, for of the things they're looking at, for example, is something stupid like steps. example, is something stupid like steps. example, is something stupid like steps. the steps don't actually occur if they the steps don't actually occur if they the steps don't actually occur if they didn't count on your device. didn't count on your device. didn't count on your device. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> That's how a lot of people think because >> That's how a lot of people think because >> That's how a lot of people think because it's the scoreboard mentality. It has to it's the scoreboard mentality. It has to it's the scoreboard mentality. It has to it has to go toward a particular thing it has to go toward a particular thing it has to go toward a particular thing because we're just collecting medallions because we're just collecting medallions because we're just collecting medallions all the time because that's the only all the time because that's the only all the time because that's the only means by which we feel worthy in the means by which we feel worthy in the means by which we feel worthy in the world because we don't world because we don't world because we don't >> uh we're not deserving of love until we >> uh we're not deserving of love until we >> uh we're not deserving of love until we earn it. And even if it's just steps, earn it. And even if it's just steps, earn it. And even if it's just steps, anything that will work us towards that anything that will work us towards that anything that will work us towards that earning mentality is going to be like an earning mentality is going to be like an earning mentality is going to be like an attractive lure that's hard to resist. attractive lure that's hard to resist. attractive lure that's hard to resist. >> Precisely. That's the human doing as >> Precisely. That's the human doing as >> Precisely. That's the human doing as opposed to the human being. That's what opposed to the human being. That's what opposed to the human being. That's what it comes down to. So let's take the it comes down to. So let's take the it comes down to. So let's take the three macronutrients and let's kind of three macronutrients and let's kind of three macronutrients and let's kind of see. Let's take stock here see. Let's take stock here see. Let's take stock here >> where one is the person with the most >> where one is the person with the most >> where one is the person with the most meaningful meaningless life you've ever meaningful meaningless life you've ever meaningful meaningless life you've ever met. Friedrich Niche, right? 10 is the met. Friedrich Niche, right? 10 is the met. Friedrich Niche, right? 10 is the person is Julie a really you know the person is Julie a really you know the person is Julie a really you know the deepest meaning of somebody you've ever deepest meaning of somebody you've ever deepest meaning of somebody you've ever met that you know personally really well met that you know personally really well met that you know personally really well what's your meaning number what's your meaning number what's your meaning number >> I would say that I'm >> I would say that I'm >> I would say that I'm so Julie's the 10 and nichi's the one so Julie's the 10 and nichi's the one so Julie's the 10 and nichi's the one >> well I don't know about niche but >> well I don't know about niche but >> well I don't know about niche but niche's life actually was pretty niche's life actually was pretty niche's life actually was pretty meaningless but the person who's really meaningless but the person who's really meaningless but the person who's really really at at completely struggling really at at completely struggling really at at completely struggling >> yeah I mean I would I would put myself >> yeah I mean I would I would put myself >> yeah I mean I would I would put myself maybe a six and a half like I'm I'm I'm maybe a six and a half like I'm I'm I'm maybe a six and a half like I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm >> more than halfway there yeah like In >> more than halfway there yeah like In >> more than halfway there yeah like In terms of happiness, like I think I'm at terms of happiness, like I think I'm at terms of happiness, like I think I'm at like a maybe a seven and a half. I think like a maybe a seven and a half. I think like a maybe a seven and a half. I think when it comes to the when it comes to when it comes to the when it comes to when it comes to the when it comes to the enjoyment piece, like I'm at a six the enjoyment piece, like I'm at a six the enjoyment piece, like I'm at a six and a half. So yeah. and a half. So yeah. and a half. So yeah. >> So when meaning you're at you're at a >> So when meaning you're at you're at a >> So when meaning you're at you're at a six and a half, six and a half, six and a half, >> I'm like dancing around it. You know >> I'm like dancing around it. You know >> I'm like dancing around it. You know what I mean? I'm like right there and what I mean? I'm like right there and what I mean? I'm like right there and there's something that's preventing me there's something that's preventing me there's something that's preventing me from taking that risk. I think from taking that risk. I think from taking that risk. I think >> Okay. What about satisfaction? >> Okay. What about satisfaction? >> Okay. What about satisfaction? >> Satisfaction is high. >> Satisfaction is high. >> Satisfaction is high. >> I think you're probably a nine and a >> I think you're probably a nine and a >> I think you're probably a nine and a half. half. half. >> I mean, man, you're killing it. What's >> I mean, man, you're killing it. What's >> I mean, man, you're killing it. What's your enjoyment number? your enjoyment number? your enjoyment number? >> Uh, I mean it es and flows like when the >> Uh, I mean it es and flows like when the >> Uh, I mean it es and flows like when the kids are home over the holidays like kids are home over the holidays like kids are home over the holidays like it's it's it was it was high. I had like it's it's it was it was high. I had like it's it's it was it was high. I had like some peak experiences but I would say on some peak experiences but I would say on some peak experiences but I would say on a daily basis it's probably you know a daily basis it's probably you know a daily basis it's probably you know around four. around four. around four. >> Yeah. It's classic. It's me too. Me too. >> Yeah. It's classic. It's me too. Me too. >> Yeah. It's classic. It's me too. Me too. I mean it's the same thing. And and one I mean it's the same thing. And and one I mean it's the same thing. And and one of the things that that people who of the things that that people who of the things that that people who really struggle with enjoyment have in really struggle with enjoyment have in really struggle with enjoyment have in common is that early in life they common is that early in life they common is that early in life they typically mistook enjoyment for typically mistook enjoyment for typically mistook enjoyment for pleasure. Pleasure is a limbic pleasure. Pleasure is a limbic pleasure. Pleasure is a limbic phenomenon where you're hitting the phenomenon where you're hitting the phenomenon where you're hitting the vententral tegmental and vententral vententral tegmental and vententral vententral tegmental and vententral stratum areas of the lyic system of the stratum areas of the lyic system of the stratum areas of the lyic system of the brain. Right? And and the the the secret brain. Right? And and the the the secret brain. Right? And and the the the secret to happiness is not the pursuit of to happiness is not the pursuit of to happiness is not the pursuit of pleasure. That's the that's the p that pleasure. That's the that's the p that pleasure. That's the that's the p that that's the secret to rehab is the that's the secret to rehab is the that's the secret to rehab is the pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure is social pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure is social pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure is social and memorable. Meaning you move the and memorable. Meaning you move the and memorable. Meaning you move the experience of pleasure into the experience of pleasure into the experience of pleasure into the prefrontal cortex where you can share it prefrontal cortex where you can share it prefrontal cortex where you can share it and remember it and manage it. You have and remember it and manage it. You have and remember it and manage it. You have to manage your own pleasure so they to manage your own pleasure so they to manage your own pleasure so they don't manage you. That's how enjoyment don't manage you. That's how enjoyment don't manage you. That's how enjoyment actually works. You can't get enjoyment actually works. You can't get enjoyment actually works. You can't get enjoyment if you have the achievement mentality. if you have the achievement mentality. if you have the achievement mentality. If you have the earning mentality If you have the earning mentality If you have the earning mentality because you'll always be going, you'll because you'll always be going, you'll because you'll always be going, you'll always default to satisfaction. The always default to satisfaction. The always default to satisfaction. The stver will forego sat will forego stver will forego sat will forego stver will forego sat will forego enjoyment eight days a week to get more enjoyment eight days a week to get more enjoyment eight days a week to get more satisfaction. The lowest satisfaction. The lowest satisfaction. The lowest >> it feels like an indulgence. I don't >> it feels like an indulgence. I don't >> it feels like an indulgence. I don't need that because I get so much need that because I get so much need that because I get so much satisfaction from this other thing that satisfaction from this other thing that satisfaction from this other thing that I do that uh you know oh it's it's I I do that uh you know oh it's it's I I do that uh you know oh it's it's I want to make sure that people I care want to make sure that people I care want to make sure that people I care about are happy. Yeah. But it feels about are happy. Yeah. But it feels about are happy. Yeah. But it feels optional to me like I can go without it. optional to me like I can go without it. optional to me like I can go without it. >> Yeah. So, let me tell you a story about >> Yeah. So, let me tell you a story about >> Yeah. So, let me tell you a story about this woman I interviewed for the first this woman I interviewed for the first this woman I interviewed for the first conversation that you and I had when we conversation that you and I had when we conversation that you and I had when we met was from strength to strength, a met was from strength to strength, a met was from strength to strength, a book that I wrote in 2022. And that's book that I wrote in 2022. And that's book that I wrote in 2022. And that's the first time we met. the first time we met. the first time we met. >> When I was interviewing people for that >> When I was interviewing people for that >> When I was interviewing people for that book, which is about how to be happier book, which is about how to be happier book, which is about how to be happier later in life, this woman who's a icon later in life, this woman who's a icon later in life, this woman who's a icon in finance uh my age and at the time in finance uh my age and at the time in finance uh my age and at the time when I interviewed her, she was in her when I interviewed her, she was in her when I interviewed her, she was in her 50s and she said like when you study 50s and she said like when you study 50s and she said like when you study happiness, people treat you like a happiness, people treat you like a happiness, people treat you like a psychiatrist, right? me was like, and psychiatrist, right? me was like, and psychiatrist, right? me was like, and she said, "I'm she said, "I'm she said, "I'm >> I've got everything I wanted in life, >> I've got everything I wanted in life, >> I've got everything I wanted in life, everything I thought I wanted in life. everything I thought I wanted in life. everything I thought I wanted in life. I'm so unhappy." And I'm like, "Talk to I'm so unhappy." And I'm like, "Talk to I'm so unhappy." And I'm like, "Talk to me." She said, "I mean, I'm roommates me." She said, "I mean, I'm roommates me." She said, "I mean, I'm roommates with my husband. Um, I have a cordial with my husband. Um, I have a cordial with my husband. Um, I have a cordial relationship with my adult children. Um, relationship with my adult children. Um, relationship with my adult children. Um, I I I used to go to church as a girl and I I I used to go to church as a girl and I I I used to go to church as a girl and I haven't I don't know why." She said, I haven't I don't know why." She said, I haven't I don't know why." She said, "You know, I think my employees are "You know, I think my employees are "You know, I think my employees are afraid of me, you know. Um, I don't have afraid of me, you know. Um, I don't have afraid of me, you know. Um, I don't have any hobbies. My doctor says I got to get any hobbies. My doctor says I got to get any hobbies. My doctor says I got to get to the gym and stop drinking so much. to the gym and stop drinking so much. to the gym and stop drinking so much. What do I do? What do I do? And I said, What do I do? What do I do? And I said, What do I do? What do I do? And I said, I mean, sister, you don't need a Harvard I mean, sister, you don't need a Harvard I mean, sister, you don't need a Harvard professor to tell you what to do. You professor to tell you what to do. You professor to tell you what to do. You just wrote your own prescription. I just wrote your own prescription. I just wrote your own prescription. I mean, go away with your husband. Get to mean, go away with your husband. Get to mean, go away with your husband. Get to know your kids. Take a souvenir in your know your kids. Take a souvenir in your know your kids. Take a souvenir in your company and step back. Go to the go to company and step back. Go to the go to company and step back. Go to the go to AA, you know, get into the gym. Get your AA, you know, get into the gym. Get your AA, you know, get into the gym. Get your life together, right? And she said, I life together, right? And she said, I life together, right? And she said, I know. I know. I said, so why not? know. I know. I said, so why not? know. I know. I said, so why not? Because that's the real question. Why Because that's the real question. Why Because that's the real question. Why not? If you know what to do, because not? If you know what to do, because not? If you know what to do, because Rich, you know what to do. Rich, you know what to do. Rich, you know what to do. >> Why not? And she said, I've always >> Why not? And she said, I've always >> Why not? And she said, I've always chosen to be special rather than happy. chosen to be special rather than happy. chosen to be special rather than happy. That's the curse of specialness. That's That's the curse of specialness. That's That's the curse of specialness. That's the striveor's curse. the striveor's curse. the striveor's curse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Any loser can have a happy family. Any >> Any loser can have a happy family. Any >> Any loser can have a happy family. Any loser can have a good relationship with loser can have a good relationship with loser can have a good relationship with his kids. Any But not everybody can have his kids. Any But not everybody can have his kids. Any But not everybody can have a blockbuster podcast. Not everybody can a blockbuster podcast. Not everybody can a blockbuster podcast. Not everybody can be an ultra endurance athlete. Not be an ultra endurance athlete. Not be an ultra endurance athlete. Not everybody can do that. And we humans, we everybody can do that. And we humans, we everybody can do that. And we humans, we want to be special. And we will want to be special. And we will want to be special. And we will sacrifice our happiness on the altar of sacrifice our happiness on the altar of sacrifice our happiness on the altar of specialness all day long. Now, most specialness all day long. Now, most specialness all day long. Now, most people, they don't have the option. They people, they don't have the option. They people, they don't have the option. They don't have the option because the don't have the option because the don't have the option because the specialness doesn't come along. So like, specialness doesn't come along. So like, specialness doesn't come along. So like, okay, I can't get rich. I might as well okay, I can't get rich. I might as well okay, I can't get rich. I might as well just like go play ball in the park with just like go play ball in the park with just like go play ball in the park with my son. That's the code. That's the code my son. That's the code. That's the code my son. That's the code. That's the code because that's that's the happiness that because that's that's the happiness that because that's that's the happiness that comes. And and and so for the blessed comes. And and and so for the blessed comes. And and and so for the blessed few, you for the blessed few who are few, you for the blessed few who are few, you for the blessed few who are watching us who were anointed with watching us who were anointed with watching us who were anointed with specialness, specialness, specialness, the happiness actually has to come on the happiness actually has to come on the happiness actually has to come on purpose. purpose. purpose. >> And that's the hard part. Mhm. That's >> And that's the hard part. Mhm. That's >> And that's the hard part. Mhm. That's the hard part. the hard part. the hard part. >> There has to be an intentional >> There has to be an intentional >> There has to be an intentional decision made consistently inconvenient decision made consistently inconvenient decision made consistently inconvenient circumstances. circumstances. circumstances. >> Yeah. But there and it turns out that >> Yeah. But there and it turns out that >> Yeah. But there and it turns out that there believe it or not there's a there believe it or not there's a there believe it or not there's a philosopher that has written about this. philosopher that has written about this. philosopher that has written about this. You have you read Joseph Peeper? You have you read Joseph Peeper? You have you read Joseph Peeper? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> He wrote the four cardinal virtues. It's >> He wrote the four cardinal virtues. It's >> He wrote the four cardinal virtues. It's a he's a great 20th century um German a he's a great 20th century um German a he's a great 20th century um German philosopher who you know did philosopher who you know did philosopher who you know did tectonically important work. I think tectonically important work. I think tectonically important work. I think probably his best book is called leisure probably his best book is called leisure probably his best book is called leisure the basis of culture where he talked the basis of culture where he talked the basis of culture where he talked about the fact that your understanding about the fact that your understanding about the fact that your understanding of yourself and our society's of yourself and our society's of yourself and our society's understanding of itself actually doesn't understanding of itself actually doesn't understanding of itself actually doesn't come from work it comes from leisure come from work it comes from leisure come from work it comes from leisure which is really really weird and not an which is really really weird and not an which is really really weird and not an American way of thinking. We understand American way of thinking. We understand American way of thinking. We understand ourselves as Americans based on what we ourselves as Americans based on what we ourselves as Americans based on what we do. That's when you're at a party you'll do. That's when you're at a party you'll do. That's when you're at a party you'll say you say my name is Rich Roll. What say you say my name is Rich Roll. What say you say my name is Rich Roll. What do you do rich? And they don't mean like do you do rich? And they don't mean like do you do rich? And they don't mean like what do you do with your kids? They what do you do with your kids? They what do you do with your kids? They don't mean what do you do with your don't mean what do you do with your don't mean what do you do with your heart. They mean, what do you do? He's heart. They mean, what do you do? He's heart. They mean, what do you do? He's like, well, I have a podcast. Oh, like, well, I have a podcast. Oh, like, well, I have a podcast. Oh, podcasting. How interesting. And then podcasting. How interesting. And then podcasting. How interesting. And then you go talk about your work. He says you go talk about your work. He says you go talk about your work. He says that who you really are is is based in that who you really are is is based in that who you really are is is based in what you consider to be leisure. And what you consider to be leisure. And what you consider to be leisure. And leisure is not chilling on a beach. It's leisure is not chilling on a beach. It's leisure is not chilling on a beach. It's not killing time. That's the paranoid not killing time. That's the paranoid not killing time. That's the paranoid fantasy of every st going to the beach fantasy of every st going to the beach fantasy of every st going to the beach and having nothing to do. Shoot me. And and having nothing to do. Shoot me. And and having nothing to do. Shoot me. And the reason that you do that is because the reason that you do that is because the reason that you do that is because you're trying to not make your wife mad you're trying to not make your wife mad you're trying to not make your wife mad or whatever. Something like this. or whatever. Something like this. or whatever. Something like this. Leisure is learning, loving and Leisure is learning, loving and Leisure is learning, loving and worshiping. That's what it come and worshiping. That's what it come and worshiping. That's what it come and becoming completely excellent at that. becoming completely excellent at that. becoming completely excellent at that. Learning something that I mean you Learning something that I mean you Learning something that I mean you prepped like crazy for this prepped like crazy for this prepped like crazy for this conversation, but this is your job. I conversation, but this is your job. I conversation, but this is your job. I know you I know you enjoyed it. I know know you I know you enjoyed it. I know know you I know you enjoyed it. I know you enjoyed it in its way, but you enjoyed it in its way, but you enjoyed it in its way, but ultimately it was an it was an ultimately it was an it was an ultimately it was an it was an achievement motivation toward the achievement motivation toward the achievement motivation toward the learning. It's learning for the sake of learning. It's learning for the sake of learning. It's learning for the sake of learning. Then there's loving, which is learning. Then there's loving, which is learning. Then there's loving, which is working on a relationship like a real working on a relationship like a real working on a relationship like a real thing. You know, I want to be better. I thing. You know, I want to be better. I thing. You know, I want to be better. I want to be a more elite husband. I want want to be a more elite husband. I want want to be a more elite husband. I want to be better at that. And last but not to be better at that. And last but not to be better at that. And last but not least is digging into the metaphysics of least is digging into the metaphysics of least is digging into the metaphysics of your life. Is finding the transcendence your life. Is finding the transcendence your life. Is finding the transcendence is finding is is getting in touch with is finding is is getting in touch with is finding is is getting in touch with your soul by actually doing the work your soul by actually doing the work your soul by actually doing the work that actually comes into that. And when that actually comes into that. And when that actually comes into that. And when you take time to do that and it doesn't you take time to do that and it doesn't you take time to do that and it doesn't compensate you in terms of money or compensate you in terms of money or compensate you in terms of money or power or honor of the world, then your power or honor of the world, then your power or honor of the world, then your life starts to become enjoyable for the life starts to become enjoyable for the life starts to become enjoyable for the first time. first time. first time. I mean, it's pretty clear-cut and you I mean, it's pretty clear-cut and you I mean, it's pretty clear-cut and you made a pretty compelling case. made a pretty compelling case. made a pretty compelling case. >> I'm trying to take my advice. >> I'm trying to take my advice. >> I'm trying to take my advice. Look, brother, Look, brother, Look, brother, >> I mean, how does it how does it work in >> I mean, how does it how does it work in >> I mean, how does it how does it work in your life, Arthur? You have all the your life, Arthur? You have all the your life, Arthur? You have all the self-awareness. You're steeped in the self-awareness. You're steeped in the self-awareness. You're steeped in the science. This is something you're you're science. This is something you're you're science. This is something you're you're able to speak about contemp, you know, able to speak about contemp, you know, able to speak about contemp, you know, just basically so spontaneously and just basically so spontaneously and just basically so spontaneously and eloquently. Um, but we're all humans and eloquently. Um, but we're all humans and eloquently. Um, but we're all humans and we struggle in our own ways. Like, what we struggle in our own ways. Like, what we struggle in our own ways. Like, what what comes up for you? So last year when what comes up for you? So last year when what comes up for you? So last year when we were in India together um that wasn't we were in India together um that wasn't we were in India together um that wasn't your job your job your job but it was a deeply deeply meaningful but it was a deeply deeply meaningful but it was a deeply deeply meaningful experience to you in no small part experience to you in no small part experience to you in no small part because you were doing peepers because you were doing peepers because you were doing peepers understanding of leisure which was understanding of leisure which was understanding of leisure which was incredibly productive without having it incredibly productive without having it incredibly productive without having it compensating you in a professional way. compensating you in a professional way. compensating you in a professional way. In other words, you shared the enjoyment In other words, you shared the enjoyment In other words, you shared the enjoyment away from the satisfaction, right? In away from the satisfaction, right? In away from the satisfaction, right? In and professional satisfaction, which is and professional satisfaction, which is and professional satisfaction, which is how you're really good at getting how you're really good at getting how you're really good at getting >> and it was also something that I could >> and it was also something that I could >> and it was also something that I could share with my wife that we could do share with my wife that we could do share with my wife that we could do together. together. together. >> Yes. Which meant that you were working >> Yes. Which meant that you were working >> Yes. Which meant that you were working on the worship side and the love side on the worship side and the love side on the worship side and the love side and the learning side all at the same and the learning side all at the same and the learning side all at the same time. I was working. time. I was working. time. I was working. >> So, I was working. I see. Here's the >> So, I was working. I see. Here's the >> So, I was working. I see. Here's the problem. I I instrumentalize all of problem. I I instrumentalize all of problem. I I instrumentalize all of these truths in a way that gets me to these truths in a way that gets me to these truths in a way that gets me to greater satisfaction. greater satisfaction. greater satisfaction. It's the problem. It's like it's just It's the problem. It's like it's just It's the problem. It's like it's just it's just it drives everybody crazy. Me it's just it drives everybody crazy. Me it's just it drives everybody crazy. Me and my wife and my kids, it drives them and my wife and my kids, it drives them and my wife and my kids, it drives them crazy because I can turn anything into a crazy because I can turn anything into a crazy because I can turn anything into a job. job. job. >> Yeah. Well, it's the happiness protocol. >> Yeah. Well, it's the happiness protocol. >> Yeah. Well, it's the happiness protocol. the the whole idea of getting into the the whole idea of getting into the the whole idea of getting into happiness to begin with was an antidote happiness to begin with was an antidote happiness to begin with was an antidote to uh what you were doing before that to uh what you were doing before that to uh what you were doing before that made you unhappy and then you you you made you unhappy and then you you you made you unhappy and then you you you manifested it you know turned it into manifested it you know turned it into manifested it you know turned it into this incredible career where you're in this incredible career where you're in this incredible career where you're in high demand high demand high demand >> like and you're traveling constantly and >> like and you're traveling constantly and >> like and you're traveling constantly and you know speaking etc and you're in your you know speaking etc and you're in your you know speaking etc and you're in your bliss like bliss like bliss like >> it's clear that you love it and it's so >> it's clear that you love it and it's so >> it's clear that you love it and it's so meaningful for other people but it means meaningful for other people but it means meaningful for other people but it means that you're not home you know that much that you're not home you know that much that you're not home you know that much and you know there's There's challenges and you know there's There's challenges and you know there's There's challenges with that, I would imagine. with that, I would imagine. with that, I would imagine. >> And I have to I have to crack the code >> And I have to I have to crack the code >> And I have to I have to crack the code of the, you know, the the people's of the, you know, the the people's of the, you know, the the people's dilemma, the stver's curse. I have to dilemma, the stver's curse. I have to dilemma, the stver's curse. I have to crack this code. And that's that's my, crack this code. And that's that's my, crack this code. And that's that's my, by the way, this is my goal for the next by the way, this is my goal for the next by the way, this is my goal for the next 5 years. 5 years. 5 years. >> That's what it's going to happen. That's >> That's what it's going to happen. That's >> That's what it's going to happen. That's how I'm going to fix it over the next 5 how I'm going to fix it over the next 5 how I'm going to fix it over the next 5 years. You with me? years. You with me? years. You with me? >> Yeah. How are you at saying no? >> Yeah. How are you at saying no? >> Yeah. How are you at saying no? >> I'm pretty bad. I'm pretty bad because >> I'm pretty bad. I'm pretty bad because >> I'm pretty bad. I'm pretty bad because you know if you if you give me enough you know if you if you give me enough you know if you if you give me enough time in advance and it's an opportunity time in advance and it's an opportunity time in advance and it's an opportunity to do something and I haven't done it to do something and I haven't done it to do something and I haven't done it before if you say you know next February before if you say you know next February before if you say you know next February right next No because that's too that's right next No because that's too that's right next No because that's too that's too close. Next September too close. Next September too close. Next September um will you make balloon animals at my um will you make balloon animals at my um will you make balloon animals at my my my nephew's bar mitzvah in Fairbanks? my my nephew's bar mitzvah in Fairbanks? my my nephew's bar mitzvah in Fairbanks? I'm like Fairbanks in in in the fall I'm like Fairbanks in in in the fall I'm like Fairbanks in in in the fall sounds good to me. I know when it's far sounds good to me. I know when it's far sounds good to me. I know when it's far away on the calendar, it's pretty easy away on the calendar, it's pretty easy away on the calendar, it's pretty easy to say yes and difficult to say no to to say yes and difficult to say no to to say yes and difficult to say no to >> it. It is. And especially if you're if >> it. It is. And especially if you're if >> it. It is. And especially if you're if you're um an experience freak, you're um an experience freak, you're um an experience freak, new new new stuff, new stuff, new stuff, new new new stuff, new stuff, new stuff, new new new stuff, new stuff, new stuff, new stuff, new stuff. And you know, part new stuff, new stuff. And you know, part new stuff, new stuff. And you know, part of that is interesting because um that's of that is interesting because um that's of that is interesting because um that's chronic seeking behavior. It's another chronic seeking behavior. It's another chronic seeking behavior. It's another issue when it actually comes to meaning, issue when it actually comes to meaning, issue when it actually comes to meaning, but all the macronutrients of happiness. but all the macronutrients of happiness. but all the macronutrients of happiness. You know, seekers really pride You know, seekers really pride You know, seekers really pride themselves in in looking for truth, but themselves in in looking for truth, but themselves in in looking for truth, but there's chronic seeking behavior. And there's chronic seeking behavior. And there's chronic seeking behavior. And what's really happening, I mean, you're what's really happening, I mean, you're what's really happening, I mean, you're you've been outdoors a lot in your life. you've been outdoors a lot in your life. you've been outdoors a lot in your life. Um, and you know perfectly that if Um, and you know perfectly that if Um, and you know perfectly that if you're lost in the woods, what you're you're lost in the woods, what you're you're lost in the woods, what you're supposed to do, supposed to do, supposed to do, stay still. Don't start looking because stay still. Don't start looking because stay still. Don't start looking because they're more likely to find you than you they're more likely to find you than you they're more likely to find you than you are to find them. And yet, what we do in are to find them. And yet, what we do in are to find them. And yet, what we do in our lives when we're lost is that we our lives when we're lost is that we our lives when we're lost is that we start wandering around. We start start wandering around. We start start wandering around. We start looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking, looking. And what you need to do is to looking. And what you need to do is to looking. And what you need to do is to stay still so you can be found. That's a stay still so you can be found. That's a stay still so you can be found. That's a metaphysical truth is what it comes down metaphysical truth is what it comes down metaphysical truth is what it comes down to. And that's a really really hard to. And that's a really really hard to. And that's a really really hard thing to do thing to do thing to do >> is to be sought as opposed to seeking. >> is to be sought as opposed to seeking. >> is to be sought as opposed to seeking. >> Uh you you talk about meaning as this >> Uh you you talk about meaning as this >> Uh you you talk about meaning as this thing that we we think we're we're we're thing that we we think we're we're we're thing that we we think we're we're we're searching for. We're trying to we're searching for. We're trying to we're searching for. We're trying to we're trying to get it. We're trying to find trying to get it. We're trying to find trying to get it. We're trying to find it. But it's much more a situation of it it. But it's much more a situation of it it. But it's much more a situation of it finding you. Like you I've heard you finding you. Like you I've heard you finding you. Like you I've heard you talk about like did did Steve Jobs, you talk about like did did Steve Jobs, you talk about like did did Steve Jobs, you know, invent the Apple computer or did know, invent the Apple computer or did know, invent the Apple computer or did he discover it? you know, it's it's like he discover it? you know, it's it's like he discover it? you know, it's it's like that Elizabeth Gilbert idea, um, big that Elizabeth Gilbert idea, um, big that Elizabeth Gilbert idea, um, big magic where there, you know, the ideas magic where there, you know, the ideas magic where there, you know, the ideas are all out there and, you know, when are all out there and, you know, when are all out there and, you know, when one descends upon you, it's your one descends upon you, it's your one descends upon you, it's your obligation to express it and if you obligation to express it and if you obligation to express it and if you don't, it goes back and somebody else don't, it goes back and somebody else don't, it goes back and somebody else expresses it. Like, we're receptors. expresses it. Like, we're receptors. expresses it. Like, we're receptors. We're receivers. And I think about like We're receivers. And I think about like We're receivers. And I think about like my life doesn't lack meaning. But when I my life doesn't lack meaning. But when I my life doesn't lack meaning. But when I had this experience with with back had this experience with with back had this experience with with back surgery, like it was very clear to see a surgery, like it was very clear to see a surgery, like it was very clear to see a path to meaning with it. Like God, the path to meaning with it. Like God, the path to meaning with it. Like God, the ineffable, the universe, you know, ineffable, the universe, you know, ineffable, the universe, you know, choose choose however you like to, you choose choose however you like to, you choose choose however you like to, you know, couch your relationship with the know, couch your relationship with the know, couch your relationship with the mystical and the spiritual was giving me mystical and the spiritual was giving me mystical and the spiritual was giving me a timeout for a reason. It's like I a timeout for a reason. It's like I a timeout for a reason. It's like I resist sitting still. Like I want to be resist sitting still. Like I want to be resist sitting still. Like I want to be on the go. I want to strive. And and on the go. I want to strive. And and on the go. I want to strive. And and God's saying enough of that. We already God's saying enough of that. We already God's saying enough of that. We already know what that got you. The real know what that got you. The real know what that got you. The real learning is what happens when you're learning is what happens when you're learning is what happens when you're forced to sit still with yourself. So, forced to sit still with yourself. So, forced to sit still with yourself. So, I'm gonna take that away from you. I'm gonna take that away from you. I'm gonna take that away from you. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> And you know, I had the choice of being >> And you know, I had the choice of being >> And you know, I had the choice of being resentful or just trying to figure out resentful or just trying to figure out resentful or just trying to figure out with my left brain how quickly I could with my left brain how quickly I could with my left brain how quickly I could get back to being that person I was get back to being that person I was get back to being that person I was before. Or I could take advantage of before. Or I could take advantage of before. Or I could take advantage of this once in a-lifetime opportunity to this once in a-lifetime opportunity to this once in a-lifetime opportunity to figure out how to become someone and figure out how to become someone and figure out how to become someone and something better and different in the something better and different in the something better and different in the future rather than returning to some future rather than returning to some future rather than returning to some version of a person I was before. And version of a person I was before. And version of a person I was before. And I've really done my best to try to um I've really done my best to try to um I've really done my best to try to um lean into that and acknowledge that. And lean into that and acknowledge that. And lean into that and acknowledge that. And as a result, it's been a profound as a result, it's been a profound as a result, it's been a profound experience instead of an annoying experience instead of an annoying experience instead of an annoying setback in my life. Right. Surrender is setback in my life. Right. Surrender is setback in my life. Right. Surrender is unbelievably powerful. This is an unbelievably powerful. This is an unbelievably powerful. This is an surrender is an example and you and I surrender is an example and you and I surrender is an example and you and I have talked about this before of never have talked about this before of never have talked about this before of never not wasting suffering. Surrender is the not wasting suffering. Surrender is the not wasting suffering. Surrender is the way that you don't waste your suffering. way that you don't waste your suffering. way that you don't waste your suffering. So the the the math of suffering So the the the math of suffering So the the the math of suffering suffering and pain are not the same suffering and pain are not the same suffering and pain are not the same thing. Pain is a is a a physiological thing. Pain is a is a a physiological thing. Pain is a is a a physiological phenomenon. It's a it's a phenomenon. It's a it's a phenomenon. It's a it's a neurohysiological phenomenon. It has a neurohysiological phenomenon. It has a neurohysiological phenomenon. It has a sensory and an affective component. The sensory and an affective component. The sensory and an affective component. The sensory component is ow you know it's sensory component is ow you know it's sensory component is ow you know it's inflammationoriented ordinarily and the inflammationoriented ordinarily and the inflammationoriented ordinarily and the s and the affective component is I don't s and the affective component is I don't s and the affective component is I don't like it but that's an actual part of the like it but that's an actual part of the like it but that's an actual part of the lyic system called the dorsal anterior lyic system called the dorsal anterior lyic system called the dorsal anterior singular cortex that processes this singular cortex that processes this singular cortex that processes this affective pain it's it's all you know affective pain it's it's all you know affective pain it's it's all you know psychology is biology fundamentally psychology is biology fundamentally psychology is biology fundamentally that's pain is involuntary it happens to that's pain is involuntary it happens to that's pain is involuntary it happens to you suffering is your struggle that you suffering is your struggle that you suffering is your struggle that ensues the struggle that ensues against ensues the struggle that ensues against ensues the struggle that ensues against pain struggle uh suffering equals pain pain struggle uh suffering equals pain pain struggle uh suffering equals pain multiplying by resistance to pain. Pain multiplying by resistance to pain. Pain multiplying by resistance to pain. Pain times resistance. If you go through your times resistance. If you go through your times resistance. If you go through your life trying to lower the pain, you're life trying to lower the pain, you're life trying to lower the pain, you're going to have tons of pain because pain going to have tons of pain because pain going to have tons of pain because pain is going to come your way and you're not is going to come your way and you're not is going to come your way and you're not going to learn anything. If you lower going to learn anything. If you lower going to learn anything. If you lower your resistance to pain, you will suffer your resistance to pain, you will suffer your resistance to pain, you will suffer less. Don't try to suffer less by having less. Don't try to suffer less by having less. Don't try to suffer less by having less pain. Try to suffer less by having less pain. Try to suffer less by having less pain. Try to suffer less by having less resistance to the pain. And then less resistance to the pain. And then less resistance to the pain. And then you will learn. And the way to do this you will learn. And the way to do this you will learn. And the way to do this is through metaphysical acceptance of is through metaphysical acceptance of is through metaphysical acceptance of these things. It's interesting because these things. It's interesting because these things. It's interesting because you know you're in the zone of finding you know you're in the zone of finding you know you're in the zone of finding greater meaning in your life. This is greater meaning in your life. This is greater meaning in your life. This is how suffering relates to meaning when how suffering relates to meaning when how suffering relates to meaning when your pain is high but your suffering is your pain is high but your suffering is your pain is high but your suffering is low. low. low. >> High pain, low suffering. And you see >> High pain, low suffering. And you see >> High pain, low suffering. And you see this with people who are deeply this with people who are deeply this with people who are deeply enlightened. You see this with people enlightened. You see this with people enlightened. You see this with people who have tremendous physical setbacks who have tremendous physical setbacks who have tremendous physical setbacks and problems in their lives and they're and problems in their lives and they're and problems in their lives and they're they have a deep kind of peace about they have a deep kind of peace about they have a deep kind of peace about them because their suffering is low even them because their suffering is low even them because their suffering is low even though their pain is enormous. I mean my though their pain is enormous. I mean my though their pain is enormous. I mean my mother-in-law in the last three years of mother-in-law in the last three years of mother-in-law in the last three years of her life, I loved my mother-in-law. Um, her life, I loved my mother-in-law. Um, her life, I loved my mother-in-law. Um, and and I was very close to my and and I was very close to my and and I was very close to my mother-in-law and she was bedridden the mother-in-law and she was bedridden the mother-in-law and she was bedridden the last 3 years of her life. She lived in last 3 years of her life. She lived in last 3 years of her life. She lived in '93 and and she was in a lot of physical '93 and and she was in a lot of physical '93 and and she was in a lot of physical pain and a lot of torment about that pain and a lot of torment about that pain and a lot of torment about that because she was a very active person. because she was a very active person. because she was a very active person. And yet her suffering was lower than I'd And yet her suffering was lower than I'd And yet her suffering was lower than I'd seen it before. seen it before. seen it before. >> And the reason is because she lowered >> And the reason is because she lowered >> And the reason is because she lowered her resistance to it. She lowered it her resistance to it. She lowered it her resistance to it. She lowered it through acceptance. And and that's what through acceptance. And and that's what through acceptance. And and that's what you were I mean, I talked to you when you were I mean, I talked to you when you were I mean, I talked to you when you were in in in this process of you were in in in this process of you were in in in this process of recovery and you you you use the recovery and you you you use the recovery and you you you use the language of non-resistance. language of non-resistance. language of non-resistance. Non-resistance is stop resisting. When Non-resistance is stop resisting. When Non-resistance is stop resisting. When you're in pain, you have a bad breakup. you're in pain, you have a bad breakup. you're in pain, you have a bad breakup. Let's say people watching us, they're Let's say people watching us, they're Let's say people watching us, they're a quarter have had a bad breakup in a quarter have had a bad breakup in a quarter have had a bad breakup in recent memory. Stop resisting the pain. recent memory. Stop resisting the pain. recent memory. Stop resisting the pain. Stop distracting yourself from the pain. Stop distracting yourself from the pain. Stop distracting yourself from the pain. Lean into the acceptance of the pain. Lean into the acceptance of the pain. Lean into the acceptance of the pain. The pain's still going to be high, but The pain's still going to be high, but The pain's still going to be high, but the resistance is low. And you will the resistance is low. And you will the resistance is low. And you will acknowledge that tremendous pain, but acknowledge that tremendous pain, but acknowledge that tremendous pain, but you'll have less suffering. And that's you'll have less suffering. And that's you'll have less suffering. And that's the source of meaning. the source of meaning. the source of meaning. The interim step is it not uh for The interim step is it not uh for The interim step is it not uh for somebody who finds themsself suffering somebody who finds themsself suffering somebody who finds themsself suffering is to understand that suffering is a is to understand that suffering is a is to understand that suffering is a teacher. Like if you are suffering there teacher. Like if you are suffering there teacher. Like if you are suffering there is a message is a message is a message >> that is trying to be imparted to you. >> that is trying to be imparted to you. >> that is trying to be imparted to you. >> Uh your resistance to the pain >> Uh your resistance to the pain >> Uh your resistance to the pain >> is like this crucible of learning if >> is like this crucible of learning if >> is like this crucible of learning if you're willing to you know deconstruct you're willing to you know deconstruct you're willing to you know deconstruct that and look at that. I mean, all of my that and look at that. I mean, all of my that and look at that. I mean, all of my bouts with suffering in the past have bouts with suffering in the past have bouts with suffering in the past have been incredible catalysts for been incredible catalysts for been incredible catalysts for transformation. And so, I have a, you transformation. And so, I have a, you transformation. And so, I have a, you know, I have a I have a relationship. know, I have a I have a relationship. know, I have a I have a relationship. Sometimes I get confused between pain Sometimes I get confused between pain Sometimes I get confused between pain and suffering. But, you know, I've gone and suffering. But, you know, I've gone and suffering. But, you know, I've gone through periods of pain. I've through periods of pain. I've through periods of pain. I've volunteered for suffering. I've suffered volunteered for suffering. I've suffered volunteered for suffering. I've suffered unnecessarily. unnecessarily. unnecessarily. But every one of those experiences in my But every one of those experiences in my But every one of those experiences in my life has been a catapult for growth and life has been a catapult for growth and life has been a catapult for growth and transformation. So for the person who is transformation. So for the person who is transformation. So for the person who is in the midst of that you know it's very in the midst of that you know it's very in the midst of that you know it's very polyiana to say well this is your polyiana to say well this is your polyiana to say well this is your greatest opportunity for you know it's greatest opportunity for you know it's greatest opportunity for you know it's like no one wants to hear that um but like no one wants to hear that um but like no one wants to hear that um but ultimately it's true and people who have ultimately it's true and people who have ultimately it's true and people who have endured you know these types of endured you know these types of endured you know these types of experiences often in retrospect you know experiences often in retrospect you know experiences often in retrospect you know later will reflect back on that and later will reflect back on that and later will reflect back on that and realize like that experience is what set realize like that experience is what set realize like that experience is what set them up for the better life that they're them up for the better life that they're them up for the better life that they're enjoying now. enjoying now. enjoying now. >> Yeah. The truth is that there's nobody >> Yeah. The truth is that there's nobody >> Yeah. The truth is that there's nobody watching us right now who if I asked watching us right now who if I asked watching us right now who if I asked when did you find what was the greatest when did you find what was the greatest when did you find what was the greatest teacher of meaning of the meaning of teacher of meaning of the meaning of teacher of meaning of the meaning of your life would say that week at the your life would say that week at the your life would say that week at the beach in Nita not one beach in Nita not one beach in Nita not one >> no they would talk about a hard thing >> no they would talk about a hard thing >> no they would talk about a hard thing you know when I was afraid when somebody you know when I was afraid when somebody you know when I was afraid when somebody died when somebody left me and I found died when somebody left me and I found died when somebody left me and I found my sense of resiliency I I found out my sense of resiliency I I found out my sense of resiliency I I found out what I was made of I was actually I what I was made of I was actually I what I was made of I was actually I found that I had more courage than I found that I had more courage than I found that I had more courage than I thought I had you know that's what it thought I had you know that's what it thought I had you know that's what it comes down to and it's it's you know comes down to and it's it's you know comes down to and it's it's you know people in in in in recovery are really people in in in in recovery are really people in in in in recovery are really good at this too because they've stopped good at this too because they've stopped good at this too because they've stopped trying to lower the pain of life and trying to lower the pain of life and trying to lower the pain of life and they started lowering their resistance they started lowering their resistance they started lowering their resistance to the pain in life and and they've to the pain in life and and they've to the pain in life and and they've understood that the essence of suffering understood that the essence of suffering understood that the essence of suffering actually comes from the benefit from actually comes from the benefit from actually comes from the benefit from suffering actually comes from working suffering actually comes from working suffering actually comes from working the right hand side not the left hand the right hand side not the left hand the right hand side not the left hand side of that equation. side of that equation. side of that equation. >> Hence why you say never waste your >> Hence why you say never waste your >> Hence why you say never waste your suffering. suffering. suffering. >> Never waste your suffering. If you waste >> Never waste your suffering. If you waste >> Never waste your suffering. If you waste your suffering, you're going to suffer, your suffering, you're going to suffer, your suffering, you're going to suffer, but you're just not going to get but you're just not going to get but you're just not going to get anything from it. There will be no anything from it. There will be no anything from it. There will be no growth from it. So you got two choices. growth from it. So you got two choices. growth from it. So you got two choices. Suffering with growth and suffering Suffering with growth and suffering Suffering with growth and suffering without growth. You know, that's like without growth. You know, that's like without growth. You know, that's like the old joke, death or chi-chi, right? the old joke, death or chi-chi, right? the old joke, death or chi-chi, right? Where, you know, it turns out that Where, you know, it turns out that Where, you know, it turns out that chi-chi is just horrible torture before chi-chi is just horrible torture before chi-chi is just horrible torture before you're put to death. And so, you you're put to death. And so, you you're put to death. And so, you obviously want death, not chi-chi. obviously want death, not chi-chi. obviously want death, not chi-chi. People who are actually trying to lower People who are actually trying to lower People who are actually trying to lower their pain. They're they're they're their pain. They're they're they're their pain. They're they're they're working at it the wrong way because working at it the wrong way because working at it the wrong way because they're going to have they're going to they're going to have they're going to they're going to have they're going to have the same amount of suffering have the same amount of suffering have the same amount of suffering ultimately. ultimately. ultimately. >> I see this. I've been seeing this a lot. >> I see this. I've been seeing this a lot. >> I see this. I've been seeing this a lot. You know, I have aging parents and You know, I have aging parents and You know, I have aging parents and >> um the amount of the amount of suffering >> um the amount of the amount of suffering >> um the amount of the amount of suffering uh that is caused by uh that is caused by uh that is caused by >> the resistance to reality is really >> the resistance to reality is really >> the resistance to reality is really painful to bear witness to. painful to bear witness to. painful to bear witness to. >> It really is. And you know, and that >> It really is. And you know, and that >> It really is. And you know, and that starts much earlier even than than old starts much earlier even than than old starts much earlier even than than old age. You know, when people I you're an age. You know, when people I you're an age. You know, when people I you're an athlete and and you're not going to be athlete and and you're not going to be athlete and and you're not going to be as good an athlete at 70 as you were at as good an athlete at 70 as you were at as good an athlete at 70 as you were at 50. And when you resist that, when you 50. And when you resist that, when you 50. And when you resist that, when you cognitively resist that, when you don't cognitively resist that, when you don't cognitively resist that, when you don't like it, when you spend a lot of time like it, when you spend a lot of time like it, when you spend a lot of time thinking about it, women really suffer a thinking about it, women really suffer a thinking about it, women really suffer a lot with age. And part of the reason is lot with age. And part of the reason is lot with age. And part of the reason is because the way evolution works, because the way evolution works, because the way evolution works, there's, you know, that the the there's, you know, that the the there's, you know, that the the perceived mate value plummets beyond, perceived mate value plummets beyond, perceived mate value plummets beyond, you know, years of obvious years of you know, years of obvious years of you know, years of obvious years of reproduction, not not inherent dignity, reproduction, not not inherent dignity, reproduction, not not inherent dignity, obviously, and and and in happy obviously, and and and in happy obviously, and and and in happy marriages, the the the value doesn't marriages, the the the value doesn't marriages, the the the value doesn't decline at all, but the whole point is decline at all, but the whole point is decline at all, but the whole point is that women perceive this a lot. And so, that women perceive this a lot. And so, that women perceive this a lot. And so, the result is that they suffer like the result is that they suffer like the result is that they suffer like crazy. They suffer a lot and and and crazy. They suffer a lot and and and crazy. They suffer a lot and and and they try to lower the pain of that by by they try to lower the pain of that by by they try to lower the pain of that by by by by trying to continue to be young and by by trying to continue to be young and by by trying to continue to be young and continue to be young and continue to be continue to be young and continue to be continue to be young and continue to be young as opposed to stop resisting young as opposed to stop resisting young as opposed to stop resisting the fact that aging occurs. the fact that aging occurs. the fact that aging occurs. >> But it's extrinsically impulsed. I mean >> But it's extrinsically impulsed. I mean >> But it's extrinsically impulsed. I mean the entire culture, you know, is the entire culture, you know, is the entire culture, you know, is informing that informing that informing that >> um response. >> um response. >> um response. >> Absolutely. You know, absolutely. This >> Absolutely. You know, absolutely. This >> Absolutely. You know, absolutely. This is we hate to lose things and so we we is we hate to lose things and so we we is we hate to lose things and so we we we we militate against something that we we we militate against something that we we we militate against something that we lose which is nothing more than trying lose which is nothing more than trying lose which is nothing more than trying to lower pain. to lower pain. to lower pain. >> One of the things that that you talk >> One of the things that that you talk >> One of the things that that you talk about is this idea of of you know love about is this idea of of you know love about is this idea of of you know love is not an emotion it's a decision. Um is not an emotion it's a decision. Um is not an emotion it's a decision. Um and I can't help but wonder if you think and I can't help but wonder if you think and I can't help but wonder if you think of meaning is the same way like is of meaning is the same way like is of meaning is the same way like is meaning a decision? Like for example meaning a decision? Like for example meaning a decision? Like for example with my back surgery like I assigned with my back surgery like I assigned with my back surgery like I assigned meaning to it. I don't know that it meaning to it. I don't know that it meaning to it. I don't know that it inherently had meaning. I inferred inherently had meaning. I inferred inherently had meaning. I inferred meaning from it and I invested in that meaning from it and I invested in that meaning from it and I invested in that meaning and that was very much meaning and that was very much meaning and that was very much >> on some level a conscious decision I >> on some level a conscious decision I >> on some level a conscious decision I suppose. suppose. suppose. >> So if somebody is struggling with this >> So if somebody is struggling with this >> So if somebody is struggling with this idea of finding meaning and they're like idea of finding meaning and they're like idea of finding meaning and they're like yeah I can invest in my relationships or yeah I can invest in my relationships or yeah I can invest in my relationships or I can you know I can do these things you I can you know I can do these things you I can you know I can do these things you know Arthur's got all these different know Arthur's got all these different know Arthur's got all these different you know threads I can pull and avenues you know threads I can pull and avenues you know threads I can pull and avenues I can pursue but fundamentally is there I can pursue but fundamentally is there I can pursue but fundamentally is there is a degree of choice involved is there is a degree of choice involved is there is a degree of choice involved is there not? There is choice to invite meaning. not? There is choice to invite meaning. not? There is choice to invite meaning. Meaning can't be pushed. Is to to to to Meaning can't be pushed. Is to to to to Meaning can't be pushed. Is to to to to get meaning directly is like pushing on get meaning directly is like pushing on get meaning directly is like pushing on a string which doesn't work. What you a string which doesn't work. What you a string which doesn't work. What you need to do is to create the conditions need to do is to create the conditions need to do is to create the conditions such that meaning can find you. And such that meaning can find you. And such that meaning can find you. And that's really what we're talking about. that's really what we're talking about. that's really what we're talking about. Giving your heart away allows meaning to Giving your heart away allows meaning to Giving your heart away allows meaning to find you. Asking the deep questions, find you. Asking the deep questions, find you. Asking the deep questions, pursuing beauty in your life, not pursuing beauty in your life, not pursuing beauty in your life, not resisting your suffering. What these resisting your suffering. What these resisting your suffering. What these things do is they make it possible. You things do is they make it possible. You things do is they make it possible. You know, it's one of the the the the things know, it's one of the the the the things know, it's one of the the the the things I talk about a lot and I talk about in I talk about a lot and I talk about in I talk about a lot and I talk about in this book is the is the idea of the this book is the is the idea of the this book is the is the idea of the pilgrimage. You know, the pilgrimage is pilgrimage. You know, the pilgrimage is pilgrimage. You know, the pilgrimage is one where you think you're looking for one where you think you're looking for one where you think you're looking for meaning and what it turns out that what meaning and what it turns out that what meaning and what it turns out that what you're doing is you're putting yourself you're doing is you're putting yourself you're doing is you're putting yourself in the position where meaning can find in the position where meaning can find in the position where meaning can find you because you're tired and you've got you because you're tired and you've got you because you're tired and you've got blisters and you're broken down and your blisters and you're broken down and your blisters and you're broken down and your defenses are low and that's when meaning defenses are low and that's when meaning defenses are low and that's when meaning actually finds you. Which is one of the actually finds you. Which is one of the actually finds you. Which is one of the reasons that every religious tradition reasons that every religious tradition reasons that every religious tradition has always had pilgrimages involved in has always had pilgrimages involved in has always had pilgrimages involved in it where you walk and walk and walk and it where you walk and walk and walk and it where you walk and walk and walk and walk. I'm going to go find this thing walk. I'm going to go find this thing walk. I'm going to go find this thing and then it turns out it finds you and and then it turns out it finds you and and then it turns out it finds you and it's different than what you thought it it's different than what you thought it it's different than what you thought it was. was. was. >> Are you still doing the Camino annually? >> Are you still doing the Camino annually? >> Are you still doing the Camino annually? >> No, I've done it. I did it in 2019 and >> No, I've done it. I did it in 2019 and >> No, I've done it. I did it in 2019 and in 2021 and I'm I think I'm going to in 2021 and I'm I think I'm going to in 2021 and I'm I think I'm going to have to have my back fixed before I do have to have my back fixed before I do have to have my back fixed before I do it again. Just walking along this it again. Just walking along this it again. Just walking along this we're going to have to talk. we're going to have to talk. we're going to have to talk. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> But, you know, there's a lot that a lot >> But, you know, there's a lot that a lot >> But, you know, there's a lot that a lot of things that I do and and you know, of things that I do and and you know, of things that I do and and you know, one of the reasons that I wrote this one of the reasons that I wrote this one of the reasons that I wrote this book about meaning is because I I really book about meaning is because I I really book about meaning is because I I really wanted to to to help my students. I wanted to to to help my students. I wanted to to to help my students. I wanted to help people who are struggling wanted to help people who are struggling wanted to help people who are struggling with this. But I want this for me too. I with this. But I want this for me too. I with this. But I want this for me too. I want this for me too. I want to make want this for me too. I want to make want this for me too. I want to make sure that my my meaning hygiene is sure that my my meaning hygiene is sure that my my meaning hygiene is appropriate. That the ways that I'm appropriate. That the ways that I'm appropriate. That the ways that I'm living my life make it continuously living my life make it continuously living my life make it continuously possible that the meaning of my life possible that the meaning of my life possible that the meaning of my life will be present to me and will actually will be present to me and will actually will be present to me and will actually find me. I'm imagining the parent who's find me. I'm imagining the parent who's find me. I'm imagining the parent who's watching this or listening to this who watching this or listening to this who watching this or listening to this who has a young adult who's struggling right has a young adult who's struggling right has a young adult who's struggling right now. Perhaps they're languishing or now. Perhaps they're languishing or now. Perhaps they're languishing or there's some indisha of of you know some there's some indisha of of you know some there's some indisha of of you know some mental health stuff going on. they're mental health stuff going on. they're mental health stuff going on. they're noticing their child is disconnected or noticing their child is disconnected or noticing their child is disconnected or you know in their bedroom playing video you know in their bedroom playing video you know in their bedroom playing video whatever it is right like this this is whatever it is right like this this is whatever it is right like this this is the epidemic I mean every parent I talk the epidemic I mean every parent I talk the epidemic I mean every parent I talk to uh talks about this what is the to uh talks about this what is the to uh talks about this what is the message a to the parent and then b if message a to the parent and then b if message a to the parent and then b if you were talking directly to the young you were talking directly to the young you were talking directly to the young person person person >> yeah so to the parent is this is why >> yeah so to the parent is this is why >> yeah so to the parent is this is why it's happening right it's not because it's happening right it's not because it's happening right it's not because the world is worse it's not because the the world is worse it's not because the the world is worse it's not because the economy is more oppressive Those things economy is more oppressive Those things economy is more oppressive Those things might or might not be true. But all of might or might not be true. But all of might or might not be true. But all of the explanations that the world is the explanations that the world is the explanations that the world is giving you of these exogenous giving you of these exogenous giving you of these exogenous circumstances that life is actually circumstances that life is actually circumstances that life is actually harder, that's not why. Here's the harder, that's not why. Here's the harder, that's not why. Here's the reason why. It's because that the reason why. It's because that the reason why. It's because that the circumstances under which your child is circumstances under which your child is circumstances under which your child is neuro neurologically getting through the neuro neurologically getting through the neuro neurologically getting through the world have changed and that's a problem. world have changed and that's a problem. world have changed and that's a problem. Then the second point is how do you how Then the second point is how do you how Then the second point is how do you how do you help the child? And the way to do you help the child? And the way to do you help the child? And the way to help the child is not walk in and say, help the child is not walk in and say, help the child is not walk in and say, "I just read this book by Arthur Brooks "I just read this book by Arthur Brooks "I just read this book by Arthur Brooks and there's going to be some changes in and there's going to be some changes in and there's going to be some changes in tech policy around this house." And and tech policy around this house." And and tech policy around this house." And and by the way, when your kids are little, by the way, when your kids are little, by the way, when your kids are little, you should have some changes in tech you should have some changes in tech you should have some changes in tech policy. You know, your your 8-year-old policy. You know, your your 8-year-old policy. You know, your your 8-year-old shouldn't have an iPad. They just shouldn't have an iPad. They just shouldn't have an iPad. They just shouldn't have an iPad and and should shouldn't have an iPad and and should shouldn't have an iPad and and should not have, you know, an iPhone alone in not have, you know, an iPhone alone in not have, you know, an iPhone alone in the room, which is predators climbing the room, which is predators climbing the room, which is predators climbing out, you know, out of the screen. I out, you know, out of the screen. I out, you know, out of the screen. I mean, there's all kinds of common sense mean, there's all kinds of common sense mean, there's all kinds of common sense that goes into this and and and parents that goes into this and and and parents that goes into this and and and parents don't want to fight those battles, but don't want to fight those battles, but don't want to fight those battles, but they need to. they need to. they need to. >> But here's how I recommend this. Uh, and >> But here's how I recommend this. Uh, and >> But here's how I recommend this. Uh, and people ask me this all the time. It's people ask me this all the time. It's people ask me this all the time. It's like, this is good information. How do I like, this is good information. How do I like, this is good information. How do I how do I get my how do I get my young how do I get my how do I get my young how do I get my how do I get my young adult child, my teenage kid to actually adult child, my teenage kid to actually adult child, my teenage kid to actually pay attention to this? And the way to do pay attention to this? And the way to do pay attention to this? And the way to do that is to say, I'm learning about this that is to say, I'm learning about this that is to say, I'm learning about this thing and it's having a big effect on me thing and it's having a big effect on me thing and it's having a big effect on me and I would really like to know your and I would really like to know your and I would really like to know your opinion about this as well. Would you opinion about this as well. Would you opinion about this as well. Would you watch this and tell me what you think? watch this and tell me what you think? watch this and tell me what you think? Would you read this? Can we read this Would you read this? Can we read this Would you read this? Can we read this together? because I think I would together? because I think I would together? because I think I would understand this better with your understand this better with your understand this better with your perspective as well and learning perspective as well and learning perspective as well and learning together together together >> in the event that the kid is not >> in the event that the kid is not >> in the event that the kid is not receptive to that. Uh which I imagine is receptive to that. Uh which I imagine is receptive to that. Uh which I imagine is probably more often than not the case. probably more often than not the case. probably more often than not the case. Uh Uh Uh >> from a from an emotional point of view, >> from a from an emotional point of view, >> from a from an emotional point of view, like how do you support the child? Like like how do you support the child? Like like how do you support the child? Like how do you show up for that kid just on how do you show up for that kid just on how do you show up for that kid just on the daily so that you're you're kind of the daily so that you're you're kind of the daily so that you're you're kind of in the solution and you know at a in the solution and you know at a in the solution and you know at a minimum not making things worse but minimum not making things worse but minimum not making things worse but actually you know kind of promoting a actually you know kind of promoting a actually you know kind of promoting a new trajectory without being the new trajectory without being the new trajectory without being the overbearing parent who's telling the kid overbearing parent who's telling the kid overbearing parent who's telling the kid what to do. what to do. what to do. >> Yeah, for sure. The answer is modeling. >> Yeah, for sure. The answer is modeling. >> Yeah, for sure. The answer is modeling. >> The best predictor of your kid looking >> The best predictor of your kid looking >> The best predictor of your kid looking at her his phone during dinner is you at her his phone during dinner is you at her his phone during dinner is you looking at your phone during dinner. looking at your phone during dinner. looking at your phone during dinner. It's actually doing the things that we It's actually doing the things that we It's actually doing the things that we talk about. Um, it's funny because talk about. Um, it's funny because talk about. Um, it's funny because people often ask me, "What's how do I people often ask me, "What's how do I people often ask me, "What's how do I get my kid to grow up and go to church? get my kid to grow up and go to church? get my kid to grow up and go to church? How do I get my kid to grow up and, you How do I get my kid to grow up and, you How do I get my kid to grow up and, you know, go to the synagogue or or or, you know, go to the synagogue or or or, you know, go to the synagogue or or or, you know, be observant in the faith?" And know, be observant in the faith?" And know, be observant in the faith?" And the answer is have them see you the answer is have them see you the answer is have them see you impeccable in your in your metaphysics. impeccable in your in your metaphysics. impeccable in your in your metaphysics. The number one predictor of a kid The number one predictor of a kid The number one predictor of a kid growing up and being religious is seeing growing up and being religious is seeing growing up and being religious is seeing their father being religious. It's a their father being religious. It's a their father being religious. It's a funny thing, but but and there's a funny thing, but but and there's a funny thing, but but and there's a reason for that. That's a that's reason for that. That's a that's reason for that. That's a that's generally in in in a traditional nuclear generally in in in a traditional nuclear generally in in in a traditional nuclear family. This is not everybody's family, family. This is not everybody's family, family. This is not everybody's family, but in a traditional nuclear family, the but in a traditional nuclear family, the but in a traditional nuclear family, the dad is the physically most powerful dad is the physically most powerful dad is the physically most powerful person that they've ever met. I thought person that they've ever met. I thought person that they've ever met. I thought my dad was like 9 ft tall. And and I I I my dad was like 9 ft tall. And and I I I my dad was like 9 ft tall. And and I I I mean I remember asking my brother, "Do mean I remember asking my brother, "Do mean I remember asking my brother, "Do you think he could lift the corner of you think he could lift the corner of you think he could lift the corner of the house?" You know, and my dad would the house?" You know, and my dad would the house?" You know, and my dad would never have been on his knees before never have been on his knees before never have been on his knees before anybody. But my dad was on his knees anybody. But my dad was on his knees anybody. But my dad was on his knees next to my bed saying his prayers every next to my bed saying his prayers every next to my bed saying his prayers every night. And for me, that's what it meant night. And for me, that's what it meant night. And for me, that's what it meant to be a man. That's what it meant. And to be a man. That's what it meant. And to be a man. That's what it meant. And so for me to grow up and be a man is to so for me to grow up and be a man is to so for me to grow up and be a man is to be on my knees before the divine. be on my knees before the divine. be on my knees before the divine. Because that's what I saw. The best way Because that's what I saw. The best way Because that's what I saw. The best way that you can actually bring more meaning that you can actually bring more meaning that you can actually bring more meaning to the life of your child is to invite to the life of your child is to invite to the life of your child is to invite more meaning into your life. To practice more meaning into your life. To practice more meaning into your life. To practice the hygiene that'll actually lead to it. the hygiene that'll actually lead to it. the hygiene that'll actually lead to it. That's the way. Put on your own oxygen That's the way. Put on your own oxygen That's the way. Put on your own oxygen mask first. mask first. mask first. Nobody wants to have a dad whose life Nobody wants to have a dad whose life Nobody wants to have a dad whose life lacks meaning. Nobody wants that. That lacks meaning. Nobody wants that. That lacks meaning. Nobody wants that. That that that's that's how we bring this to that that's that's how we bring this to that that's that's how we bring this to the people that we love the most is by the people that we love the most is by the people that we love the most is by bringing these things into our own lives bringing these things into our own lives bringing these things into our own lives >> and along the way >> and along the way >> and along the way reserve judgment of the child. reserve judgment of the child. reserve judgment of the child. >> Of course, because >> Of course, because >> Of course, because >> they're they're playing out their life >> they're they're playing out their life >> they're they're playing out their life in the context of circumstances they in the context of circumstances they in the context of circumstances they didn't choose. Uh and and I think that didn't choose. Uh and and I think that didn't choose. Uh and and I think that that the solution is always more love. that the solution is always more love. that the solution is always more love. You know, it's more love. It's like what You know, it's more love. It's like what You know, it's more love. It's like what the Daly Lama said like I'm wearing. See the Daly Lama said like I'm wearing. See the Daly Lama said like I'm wearing. See this red? This is from that experience. this red? This is from that experience. this red? This is from that experience. >> Yeah. It's just, you know, the answer is >> Yeah. It's just, you know, the answer is >> Yeah. It's just, you know, the answer is always more unconditional love. always more unconditional love. always more unconditional love. >> Yeah. Of course. It's of course. You >> Yeah. Of course. It's of course. You >> Yeah. Of course. It's of course. You know, it's it's funny because my brother know, it's it's funny because my brother know, it's it's funny because my brother gave me great advice. He had kids before gave me great advice. He had kids before gave me great advice. He had kids before I had mine. I said, "So, what do you I had mine. I said, "So, what do you I had mine. I said, "So, what do you do?" He says, "Don't freak out. Don't do?" He says, "Don't freak out. Don't do?" He says, "Don't freak out. Don't freak out. Keep them close. Don't freak freak out. Keep them close. Don't freak freak out. Keep them close. Don't freak out." And thank God because there were out." And thank God because there were out." And thank God because there were freakout moments in my kids' lives. and freakout moments in my kids' lives. and freakout moments in my kids' lives. and and there's there's no reason to and there's there's no reason to and there's there's no reason to withhold love. There's never a reason to withhold love. There's never a reason to withhold love. There's never a reason to withhold love. withhold love. withhold love. >> One of the things that I realized uh in >> One of the things that I realized uh in >> One of the things that I realized uh in in reading your book and and and going in reading your book and and and going in reading your book and and and going through all of these um pathways towards through all of these um pathways towards through all of these um pathways towards meaning uh is that they also are meaning uh is that they also are meaning uh is that they also are pathways towards enjoyment. Like the pathways towards enjoyment. Like the pathways towards enjoyment. Like the things that I am avoiding or resisting things that I am avoiding or resisting things that I am avoiding or resisting doing uh that could bring my life doing uh that could bring my life doing uh that could bring my life greater enjoyment are also the same greater enjoyment are also the same greater enjoyment are also the same things that contribute to meaning. like things that contribute to meaning. like things that contribute to meaning. like it's in the ven diagram there's there's it's in the ven diagram there's there's it's in the ven diagram there's there's a significant overlap there a significant overlap there a significant overlap there >> there is indeed >> there is indeed >> there is indeed >> um you know like uh surrounding yourself >> um you know like uh surrounding yourself >> um you know like uh surrounding yourself with beauty like awe and wonder with beauty like awe and wonder with beauty like awe and wonder >> right >> right >> right >> um >> um >> um >> not suffering >> not suffering >> not suffering >> not yeah not suffering uh giving your >> not yeah not suffering uh giving your >> not yeah not suffering uh giving your heart away of course and there's heart away of course and there's heart away of course and there's obviously obviously obviously >> sort of giving your heart away is not >> sort of giving your heart away is not >> sort of giving your heart away is not actually that enjoyable a lot of the actually that enjoyable a lot of the actually that enjoyable a lot of the time there are certain parts of it that time there are certain parts of it that time there are certain parts of it that are enjoyable but it requires an are enjoyable but it requires an are enjoyable but it requires an investment of time and attention investment of time and attention investment of time and attention >> yes indeed yes indeed >> yes indeed yes indeed >> yes indeed yes indeed >> you can't you can't be working while >> you can't you can't be working while >> you can't you can't be working while you're doing that. you're doing that. you're doing that. >> No, you know, that's right. >> No, you know, that's right. >> No, you know, that's right. >> And ultimately, in the long run, it is >> And ultimately, in the long run, it is >> And ultimately, in the long run, it is it is a pathway to enjoyment. Yeah. it is a pathway to enjoyment. Yeah. it is a pathway to enjoyment. Yeah. >> Is it not? >> Is it not? >> Is it not? >> Ideally, ideally, there's a lot of >> Ideally, ideally, there's a lot of >> Ideally, ideally, there's a lot of enjoyable things about I have about my enjoyable things about I have about my enjoyable things about I have about my marriage. For sure. For sure. The one I marriage. For sure. For sure. The one I marriage. For sure. For sure. The one I want to drill down on before we we um want to drill down on before we we um want to drill down on before we we um conclude today's conversation is this conclude today's conversation is this conclude today's conversation is this idea of transcending yourself and going idea of transcending yourself and going idea of transcending yourself and going from, you know, the me me of it all to from, you know, the me me of it all to from, you know, the me me of it all to um making your life about something um making your life about something um making your life about something bigger than yourself. bigger than yourself. bigger than yourself. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is the ultimate um kind of catapult >> This is the ultimate um kind of catapult >> This is the ultimate um kind of catapult to meaning. to meaning. to meaning. >> Yeah. Yeah. Transcendence is funny >> Yeah. Yeah. Transcendence is funny >> Yeah. Yeah. Transcendence is funny because you know there's a lot of because you know there's a lot of because you know there's a lot of literature, a lot of behavioral science literature, a lot of behavioral science literature, a lot of behavioral science out there that shows that people who out there that shows that people who out there that shows that people who have a strong religious tendency, they have a strong religious tendency, they have a strong religious tendency, they tend to be happier, right? They tend to tend to be happier, right? They tend to tend to be happier, right? They tend to be happier. And the reason is because be happier. And the reason is because be happier. And the reason is because religion and spirituality are a real religion and spirituality are a real religion and spirituality are a real source of meaning. But it turns out it's source of meaning. But it turns out it's source of meaning. But it turns out it's not religion per se. It's transcendence not religion per se. It's transcendence not religion per se. It's transcendence which allows you to stand in awe of which allows you to stand in awe of which allows you to stand in awe of something greater than yourself. So Ryan something greater than yourself. So Ryan something greater than yourself. So Ryan Holidayiday who's phenomenal on on Holidayiday who's phenomenal on on Holidayiday who's phenomenal on on stoicism of course he gets tremendous stoicism of course he gets tremendous stoicism of course he gets tremendous transcendence he transcends himself transcendence he transcends himself transcendence he transcends himself self-trcendence from studying the stoic self-trcendence from studying the stoic self-trcendence from studying the stoic philosophers I know people who do that philosophers I know people who do that philosophers I know people who do that who who who in in participating in in who who who in in participating in in who who who in in participating in in extreme athletic activity get this I extreme athletic activity get this I extreme athletic activity get this I know people who study the works of Johan know people who study the works of Johan know people who study the works of Johan Sebastian Bach people who do vaposa Sebastian Bach people who do vaposa Sebastian Bach people who do vaposa meditation but the whole point is you meditation but the whole point is you meditation but the whole point is you need to get out of the psycho drama of need to get out of the psycho drama of need to get out of the psycho drama of your life otherwise I mean, it's me, me, your life otherwise I mean, it's me, me, your life otherwise I mean, it's me, me, me, as you say. It's my job, my car, my me, as you say. It's my job, my car, my me, as you say. It's my job, my car, my lunch, my money, my it's just rich. It's lunch, my money, my it's just rich. It's lunch, my money, my it's just rich. It's just so boring and and it's so just so boring and and it's so just so boring and and it's so terrifying and terrible and tedious all terrifying and terrible and tedious all terrifying and terrible and tedious all the time. A and yet, mother nature wants the time. A and yet, mother nature wants the time. A and yet, mother nature wants you. I mean, look, think of all the you. I mean, look, think of all the you. I mean, look, think of all the dreams you had last night. You were the dreams you had last night. You were the dreams you had last night. You were the star in all of them. You know, mother star in all of them. You know, mother star in all of them. You know, mother nature wants you at the center of the nature wants you at the center of the nature wants you at the center of the psycho drama because that gives you a a psycho drama because that gives you a a psycho drama because that gives you a a a better likelihood of surviving and a better likelihood of surviving and a better likelihood of surviving and passing on your genes, but it doesn't do passing on your genes, but it doesn't do passing on your genes, but it doesn't do anything for your happiness. You need to anything for your happiness. You need to anything for your happiness. You need to be in what what um William James calls be in what what um William James calls be in what what um William James calls the I self instead of the me self, the I self instead of the me self, the I self instead of the me self, looking outward, looking upward as looking outward, looking upward as looking outward, looking upward as opposed to looking inward. A and you opposed to looking inward. A and you opposed to looking inward. A and you need ways to do that every single day. need ways to do that every single day. need ways to do that every single day. the distinction between looking outward the distinction between looking outward the distinction between looking outward and looking upward. Looking outward, an and looking upward. Looking outward, an and looking upward. Looking outward, an example of that would be investing uh example of that would be investing uh example of that would be investing uh yourself in the in the the betterment of yourself in the in the the betterment of yourself in the in the the betterment of other pe of other people, right? Or other pe of other people, right? Or other pe of other people, right? Or committing yourself to a cause or or committing yourself to a cause or or committing yourself to a cause or or just, you know, uh carrying yourself just, you know, uh carrying yourself just, you know, uh carrying yourself with a spirit of of contribution, going with a spirit of of contribution, going with a spirit of of contribution, going into every room looking to contribute into every room looking to contribute into every room looking to contribute rather than to extract. Whereas the rather than to extract. Whereas the rather than to extract. Whereas the looking upward that's the cultivation of looking upward that's the cultivation of looking upward that's the cultivation of a relationship with the divine and and a relationship with the divine and and a relationship with the divine and and uh an investment in the in in the uh an investment in the in in the uh an investment in the in in the mystical and ineffable. mystical and ineffable. mystical and ineffable. >> They go together in a lot of ways. You >> They go together in a lot of ways. You >> They go together in a lot of ways. You know that that what you find is that know that that what you find is that know that that what you find is that when people really believe in living up when people really believe in living up when people really believe in living up to their their spiritual potentialities to their their spiritual potentialities to their their spiritual potentialities that they tend to serve others more too. that they tend to serve others more too. that they tend to serve others more too. And and what you find is that that that And and what you find is that that that And and what you find is that that that these two things are multiplicative. these two things are multiplicative. these two things are multiplicative. >> Serving others and and and developing >> Serving others and and and developing >> Serving others and and and developing your spiritual self. These things go your spiritual self. These things go your spiritual self. These things go together really well. They're beautiful together really well. They're beautiful together really well. They're beautiful things that actually go together and things that actually go together and things that actually go together and they they they they they they enhance each other in in their ability enhance each other in in their ability enhance each other in in their ability to get you out of the me self, get you to get you out of the me self, get you to get you out of the me self, get you out of the mirror and and thus help you out of the mirror and and thus help you out of the mirror and and thus help you find meaning, help you find through find meaning, help you find through find meaning, help you find through transcendence. transcendence. transcendence. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> these are all uh vehicles for surrender >> these are all uh vehicles for surrender >> these are all uh vehicles for surrender uh acceptance and humility. Like it's a uh acceptance and humility. Like it's a uh acceptance and humility. Like it's a surrender of the ego. It's a it's a surrender of the ego. It's a it's a surrender of the ego. It's a it's a humbling of uh you know your high sense humbling of uh you know your high sense humbling of uh you know your high sense of self. It's a disabusing of your of self. It's a disabusing of your of self. It's a disabusing of your self-obsession. Um, and it's an self-obsession. Um, and it's an self-obsession. Um, and it's an acceptance that you're not the center of acceptance that you're not the center of acceptance that you're not the center of the universe. the universe. the universe. >> Right? You remember when we were with >> Right? You remember when we were with >> Right? You remember when we were with the Daly Lama? And I I don't know if the Daly Lama? And I I don't know if the Daly Lama? And I I don't know if this registered, but he he talked about this registered, but he he talked about this registered, but he he talked about a photograph that he saw from 1969. a photograph that he saw from 1969. a photograph that he saw from 1969. Photograph. It was called uh what was it Photograph. It was called uh what was it Photograph. It was called uh what was it called? Uh, Earth R. It was that called? Uh, Earth R. It was that called? Uh, Earth R. It was that photograph that a an astronaut took from photograph that a an astronaut took from photograph that a an astronaut took from the surface of the moon of the Earth. the surface of the moon of the Earth. the surface of the moon of the Earth. Now, for us like, huh, interesting. That Now, for us like, huh, interesting. That Now, for us like, huh, interesting. That was mindblowing in 1969 because nobody was mindblowing in 1969 because nobody was mindblowing in 1969 because nobody had ever taken a picture of the earth had ever taken a picture of the earth had ever taken a picture of the earth not on Earth ever. First time ever. And not on Earth ever. First time ever. And not on Earth ever. First time ever. And it made people like, whoa, that is like it made people like, whoa, that is like it made people like, whoa, that is like crazy stuff that Ali Lama said that he crazy stuff that Ali Lama said that he crazy stuff that Ali Lama said that he found that a very reassuring photo. Like found that a very reassuring photo. Like found that a very reassuring photo. Like what? Because he said it reminds me that what? Because he said it reminds me that what? Because he said it reminds me that I'm so small and that gave me I'm so small and that gave me I'm so small and that gave me perspective and peace. It's funny. at my perspective and peace. It's funny. at my perspective and peace. It's funny. at my university, most universities, the most university, most universities, the most university, most universities, the most popular class or one of the most popular popular class or one of the most popular popular class or one of the most popular classes for freshmen is is astronomy 1. classes for freshmen is is astronomy 1. classes for freshmen is is astronomy 1. And they're not astronomers, like And they're not astronomers, like And they're not astronomers, like English majors and communications English majors and communications English majors and communications majors, but they love the astronomy majors, but they love the astronomy majors, but they love the astronomy class. So, I asked the student, "Why do class. So, I asked the student, "Why do class. So, I asked the student, "Why do you all love the astronomy class so you all love the astronomy class so you all love the astronomy class so much?" She's like, "I don't know, but much?" She's like, "I don't know, but much?" She's like, "I don't know, but you know, I go in on Thursday morning you know, I go in on Thursday morning you know, I go in on Thursday morning and um you know, I just had a big and um you know, I just had a big and um you know, I just had a big argument with my mom and I think my argument with my mom and I think my argument with my mom and I think my boyfriend's breaking up with me and I boyfriend's breaking up with me and I boyfriend's breaking up with me and I think I got a B in a class, which at think I got a B in a class, which at think I got a B in a class, which at Harvard is like a big deal." and and uh Harvard is like a big deal." and and uh Harvard is like a big deal." and and uh and I go into astronomy and I come out and I go into astronomy and I come out and I go into astronomy and I come out an hour later and and I realize I'm a an hour later and and I realize I'm a an hour later and and I realize I'm a speck on a speck on a speck. speck on a speck on a speck. speck on a speck on a speck. Mother nature wants you to be huge, but Mother nature wants you to be huge, but Mother nature wants you to be huge, but you need to be small. You need to get you need to be small. You need to get you need to be small. You need to get smaller is what it comes down to. And smaller is what it comes down to. And smaller is what it comes down to. And then you'll have perspective then you'll have perspective then you'll have perspective >> as an intellectual exercise. Like we've >> as an intellectual exercise. Like we've >> as an intellectual exercise. Like we've all seen the videos and we're all seen the videos and we're all seen the videos and we're telescoping out and farther and you get, telescoping out and farther and you get, telescoping out and farther and you get, you know, like we're getting smaller and you know, like we're getting smaller and you know, like we're getting smaller and smaller. You're like, "Wow, that's like smaller. You're like, "Wow, that's like smaller. You're like, "Wow, that's like we are just nothing," you know, and then we are just nothing," you know, and then we are just nothing," you know, and then we just immediately snap back to self we just immediately snap back to self we just immediately snap back to self obsession and being the, you know, main obsession and being the, you know, main obsession and being the, you know, main character in the universe. character in the universe. character in the universe. >> That's right. You then you look at your >> That's right. You then you look at your >> That's right. You then you look at your text messages and you're like, can you text messages and you're like, can you text messages and you're like, can you believe she said that and or whatever. believe she said that and or whatever. believe she said that and or whatever. >> Why is it like is there a neurological >> Why is it like is there a neurological >> Why is it like is there a neurological explanation for why we default to this? explanation for why we default to this? explanation for why we default to this? >> Yeah, for sure. Because virtual >> Yeah, for sure. Because virtual >> Yeah, for sure. Because virtual virtually all of our attention has to be virtually all of our attention has to be virtually all of our attention has to be focused on what we individually are focused on what we individually are focused on what we individually are doing. So our self-awareness is at the doing. So our self-awareness is at the doing. So our self-awareness is at the cognitive center of all the things that cognitive center of all the things that cognitive center of all the things that we do. Because if we had a natural we do. Because if we had a natural we do. Because if we had a natural tendency to not be at the cognitive tendency to not be at the cognitive tendency to not be at the cognitive center of what we do, we'd get in a car center of what we do, we'd get in a car center of what we do, we'd get in a car crash within the first 30 seconds of crash within the first 30 seconds of crash within the first 30 seconds of getting behind the wheel. You know, this getting behind the wheel. You know, this getting behind the wheel. You know, this is absolute self-defense. But once is absolute self-defense. But once is absolute self-defense. But once again, mother nature could not care less again, mother nature could not care less again, mother nature could not care less whether it makes us happy or not because whether it makes us happy or not because whether it makes us happy or not because happiness isn't actually a measure of or happiness isn't actually a measure of or happiness isn't actually a measure of or or a means of evolutionary fitness. or a means of evolutionary fitness. or a means of evolutionary fitness. >> Mhm. You consider uh the Daly Lama to be >> Mhm. You consider uh the Daly Lama to be >> Mhm. You consider uh the Daly Lama to be a mentor if not the mentor of you. How a mentor if not the mentor of you. How a mentor if not the mentor of you. How many times have you visited him? many many times have you visited him? many many times have you visited him? many times with him for over the last 12 12 times with him for over the last 12 12 times with him for over the last 12 12 years. Many times uh several times in years. Many times uh several times in years. Many times uh several times in the states and many times at his home in the states and many times at his home in the states and many times at his home in Arsala. Yeah. Arsala. Yeah. Arsala. Yeah. >> And what would you say is if you had to >> And what would you say is if you had to >> And what would you say is if you had to synopsize or drill down on on the most synopsize or drill down on on the most synopsize or drill down on on the most impactful wisdom that he has shared with impactful wisdom that he has shared with impactful wisdom that he has shared with you that has has had the most has had you that has has had the most has had you that has has had the most has had the most meaningful impact on your life. the most meaningful impact on your life. the most meaningful impact on your life. What would that be? What would that be? What would that be? >> He's taught me um so many things. So >> He's taught me um so many things. So >> He's taught me um so many things. So many things that I carry with me and so many things that I carry with me and so many things that I carry with me and so many things that I that I love. He's many things that I that I love. He's many things that I that I love. He's he's helped me to be a better person. he's helped me to be a better person. he's helped me to be a better person. and he's helped me to be a better and he's helped me to be a better and he's helped me to be a better Catholic. He told me, "I want you to be Catholic. He told me, "I want you to be Catholic. He told me, "I want you to be a better Catholic man. He didn't try to a better Catholic man. He didn't try to a better Catholic man. He didn't try to he didn't try to bring me into his own he didn't try to bring me into his own he didn't try to bring me into his own religion, into his own philosophy even. religion, into his own philosophy even. religion, into his own philosophy even. He wants me to be the best person that I He wants me to be the best person that I He wants me to be the best person that I can possibly be." And when he sees me can possibly be." And when he sees me can possibly be." And when he sees me every time, he reminds me of a lot of every time, he reminds me of a lot of every time, he reminds me of a lot of different moral lessons that he's different moral lessons that he's different moral lessons that he's emphasized over the years. And and the emphasized over the years. And and the emphasized over the years. And and the one that always reminds me in the vein one that always reminds me in the vein one that always reminds me in the vein of what we're talking about right now, of what we're talking about right now, of what we're talking about right now, he tells me again and again, he told us he tells me again and again, he told us he tells me again and again, he told us when we were there to remember that when we were there to remember that when we were there to remember that you're one of 8 billion. you're one of 8 billion. you're one of 8 billion. Remember the 8 billion and you're one. Remember the 8 billion and you're one. Remember the 8 billion and you're one. Because in doing that, then your Because in doing that, then your Because in doing that, then your uniqueness is not diminished in any way, uniqueness is not diminished in any way, uniqueness is not diminished in any way, but your sense of actually the part that but your sense of actually the part that but your sense of actually the part that you play in the world can be emphasized. you play in the world can be emphasized. you play in the world can be emphasized. And that's the sort of emphasis that we And that's the sort of emphasis that we And that's the sort of emphasis that we actually need to be the happiest person actually need to be the happiest person actually need to be the happiest person people that we can be and to serve the people that we can be and to serve the people that we can be and to serve the world in the way that we possibly the world in the way that we possibly the world in the way that we possibly the best way that we possibly can. best way that we possibly can. best way that we possibly can. >> The cynical part of me thinks this is >> The cynical part of me thinks this is >> The cynical part of me thinks this is obvious to all of us. obvious to all of us. obvious to all of us. >> Where's the profoundity in making that >> Where's the profoundity in making that >> Where's the profoundity in making that statement? statement? statement? >> Yeah. Most profound things, the most >> Yeah. Most profound things, the most >> Yeah. Most profound things, the most profound things in life are the things profound things in life are the things profound things in life are the things that you knew to be true but that you that you knew to be true but that you that you knew to be true but that you forgot. That's where real profoundity forgot. That's where real profoundity forgot. That's where real profoundity really comes in. There's nothing very really comes in. There's nothing very really comes in. There's nothing very profound about something that that is profound about something that that is profound about something that that is completely new to you. It might be completely new to you. It might be completely new to you. It might be insightful. It might be important. It insightful. It might be important. It insightful. It might be important. It might be profitable. But there's might be profitable. But there's might be profitable. But there's something that you know to be a deep something that you know to be a deep something that you know to be a deep truth, but you're off track because you truth, but you're off track because you truth, but you're off track because you forgot it. The reminder of that is the forgot it. The reminder of that is the forgot it. The reminder of that is the most profound thing that you'll ever most profound thing that you'll ever most profound thing that you'll ever hear. What is your daily practice look hear. What is your daily practice look hear. What is your daily practice look like in terms of nourishing your your like in terms of nourishing your your like in terms of nourishing your your spirituality and making sure that you spirituality and making sure that you spirituality and making sure that you know all of these areas of life that are know all of these areas of life that are know all of these areas of life that are contributing to the macronutrients of of contributing to the macronutrients of of contributing to the macronutrients of of happiness are are being served. happiness are are being served. happiness are are being served. Um, I have to be really disciplined and Um, I have to be really disciplined and Um, I have to be really disciplined and rigorous about it. Um, because I know rigorous about it. Um, because I know rigorous about it. Um, because I know myself. You know, my wife doesn't have myself. You know, my wife doesn't have myself. You know, my wife doesn't have to. My wife is a she's spiritually to. My wife is a she's spiritually to. My wife is a she's spiritually deeply adept and she can have what looks deeply adept and she can have what looks deeply adept and she can have what looks to me like a complete mess of a schedule to me like a complete mess of a schedule to me like a complete mess of a schedule and still have it really all together in and still have it really all together in and still have it really all together in the important I can't do it. I can't I the important I can't do it. I can't I the important I can't do it. I can't I can't be done. I can't. can't be done. I can't. can't be done. I can't. >> I'm relating to that. >> I'm relating to that. >> I'm relating to that. >> Uhhuh. Yeah. I can't I can't do it. And >> Uhhuh. Yeah. I can't I can't do it. And >> Uhhuh. Yeah. I can't I can't do it. And so because my wife will just naturally so because my wife will just naturally so because my wife will just naturally do the important things. She does the do the important things. She does the do the important things. She does the important things. So but but for me um I important things. So but but for me um I important things. So but but for me um I practice the Brahma mhorta which in practice the Brahma mhorta which in practice the Brahma mhorta which in Sanskrit means the creator's time. That Sanskrit means the creator's time. That Sanskrit means the creator's time. That means I get up before dawn. Um and means I get up before dawn. Um and means I get up before dawn. Um and there's a lot of neuroscience behind why there's a lot of neuroscience behind why there's a lot of neuroscience behind why that's good for your performance and that's good for your performance and that's good for your performance and creativity and and your focus etc. But creativity and and your focus etc. But creativity and and your focus etc. But also for your happiness I exercise every also for your happiness I exercise every also for your happiness I exercise every day because that's really an important day because that's really an important day because that's really an important way for me to manage my high level of way for me to manage my high level of way for me to manage my high level of negative a effect. I have very high negative a effect. I have very high negative a effect. I have very high negative a effect. Negative a effect negative a effect. Negative a effect negative a effect. Negative a effect means negative natural mood that I means negative natural mood that I means negative natural mood that I experience which is nothing dangerous experience which is nothing dangerous experience which is nothing dangerous but I'm highly hypomomanic meaning I but I'm highly hypomomanic meaning I but I'm highly hypomomanic meaning I have high positive and high negative a have high positive and high negative a have high positive and high negative a effect and so my bigger challenge is not effect and so my bigger challenge is not effect and so my bigger challenge is not getting happier it's getting less getting happier it's getting less getting happier it's getting less unhappy and the first thing that that unhappy and the first thing that that unhappy and the first thing that that you can do to manage high negative a you can do to manage high negative a you can do to manage high negative a effect is to pick up heavy things and effect is to pick up heavy things and effect is to pick up heavy things and run around first thing in the morning run around first thing in the morning run around first thing in the morning that's the best possible way to do it that's the best possible way to do it that's the best possible way to do it and then I follow that on every single and then I follow that on every single and then I follow that on every single day with with spiritual practice I go to day with with spiritual practice I go to day with with spiritual practice I go to mass every morning and so you know it's mass every morning and so you know it's mass every morning and so you know it's you know Catholics are it's you know Catholics are it's you know Catholics are it's >> that's wild yeah I You've told me that >> that's wild yeah I You've told me that >> that's wild yeah I You've told me that before, so I've I've heard it. Uh, but before, so I've I've heard it. Uh, but before, so I've I've heard it. Uh, but you know, that is that's a you know, that is that's a you know, that is that's a >> that's a quite a commitment. That's a >> that's a quite a commitment. That's a >> that's a quite a commitment. That's a rare that's a rare thing. rare that's a rare thing. rare that's a rare thing. >> It's it's there are probably 4% of >> It's it's there are probably 4% of >> It's it's there are probably 4% of Catholics do that. 4% of practicing Catholics do that. 4% of practicing Catholics do that. 4% of practicing Catholics do that. But but again, in a Catholics do that. But but again, in a Catholics do that. But but again, in a way, it's not it's not that hard because way, it's not it's not that hard because way, it's not it's not that hard because Catholicism is like Starbucks. It's a Catholicism is like Starbucks. It's a Catholicism is like Starbucks. It's a highly uniform product that's easy to highly uniform product that's easy to highly uniform product that's easy to find in its way. But also this this is find in its way. But also this this is find in its way. But also this this is deeply deeply deeply spiritual deeply deeply deeply spiritual deeply deeply deeply spiritual experience that's remarkably the same experience that's remarkably the same experience that's remarkably the same from day to day that reminds me for half from day to day that reminds me for half from day to day that reminds me for half an hour a day at 6:30 in the morning who an hour a day at 6:30 in the morning who an hour a day at 6:30 in the morning who I am. I am. I am. >> That's who I am. That grounds me to my >> That's who I am. That grounds me to my >> That's who I am. That grounds me to my relationship to the divine every day. relationship to the divine every day. relationship to the divine every day. Every day. Every day. It's a little Every day. Every day. It's a little Every day. Every day. It's a little window onto onto the metaphysical every window onto onto the metaphysical every window onto onto the metaphysical every day. And then you know that I I I day. And then you know that I I I day. And then you know that I I I tightly control my diet and exercise. I tightly control my diet and exercise. I tightly control my diet and exercise. I tightly control it because I understand tightly control it because I understand tightly control it because I understand biologically actually how it's going to biologically actually how it's going to biologically actually how it's going to affect my mood, how it's going to affect affect my mood, how it's going to affect affect my mood, how it's going to affect my productivity, how it's going to my productivity, how it's going to my productivity, how it's going to affect my focus, etc. And my my career, affect my focus, etc. And my my career, affect my focus, etc. And my my career, my work, my vocation, my calling is all my work, my vocation, my calling is all my work, my vocation, my calling is all about ideas. It's all about bringing about ideas. It's all about bringing about ideas. It's all about bringing ideas that matter to as many people as I ideas that matter to as many people as I ideas that matter to as many people as I possibly can. And I can't I can't afford possibly can. And I can't I can't afford possibly can. And I can't I can't afford to, and again, this is a stverous thing to, and again, this is a stverous thing to, and again, this is a stverous thing to say, but I don't feel like I can to say, but I don't feel like I can to say, but I don't feel like I can afford to lose a day that I actually afford to lose a day that I actually afford to lose a day that I actually have when there's ideas to be have when there's ideas to be have when there's ideas to be >> Yeah, that's true. That's that's >> Yeah, that's true. That's that's >> Yeah, that's true. That's that's dangerous out. dangerous out. dangerous out. >> I know danger blink blink like I know >> I know danger blink blink like I know >> I know danger blink blink like I know and and so I I design my my consumption and and so I I design my my consumption and and so I I design my my consumption around that about what I eat, what I around that about what I eat, what I around that about what I eat, what I drink, when I consume caffeine, etc., drink, when I consume caffeine, etc., drink, when I consume caffeine, etc., etc., etc. etc., etc. etc., etc. >> But I finish up the day looking at the >> But I finish up the day looking at the >> But I finish up the day looking at the divine as well. I pra I pray the rosary divine as well. I pra I pray the rosary divine as well. I pra I pray the rosary with my wife. That's a thousand-year-old with my wife. That's a thousand-year-old with my wife. That's a thousand-year-old ancient Catholic meditation, very very ancient Catholic meditation, very very ancient Catholic meditation, very very much like the Eastern meditative much like the Eastern meditative much like the Eastern meditative practices. practices. practices. And you know it's it is repetitive And you know it's it is repetitive And you know it's it is repetitive prayer. Repetitive prayer. Contemplating prayer. Repetitive prayer. Contemplating prayer. Repetitive prayer. Contemplating certain scenes from the life of Christ certain scenes from the life of Christ certain scenes from the life of Christ which we do together because we're which we do together because we're which we do together because we're wiring our right hemispheres together as wiring our right hemispheres together as wiring our right hemispheres together as an intent of the vine. We believe that an intent of the vine. We believe that an intent of the vine. We believe that our marriage is an intent of God. I our marriage is an intent of God. I our marriage is an intent of God. I believe that if I deny my wife my love, believe that if I deny my wife my love, believe that if I deny my wife my love, I'm denying my wife God's love and vice I'm denying my wife God's love and vice I'm denying my wife God's love and vice versa. And so that's the stakes, man. versa. And so that's the stakes, man. versa. And so that's the stakes, man. That's the stakes. That's the stakes. That's the stakes. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> That's intense. >> That's intense. >> That's intense. Uh well, we we're all a manifestation of Uh well, we we're all a manifestation of Uh well, we we're all a manifestation of God, right? To love your beloved is to God, right? To love your beloved is to God, right? To love your beloved is to love God love God love God >> and to be loved by God. >> and to be loved by God. >> and to be loved by God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's what it means to love and be be >> That's what it means to love and be be >> That's what it means to love and be be see God is made manifest in the loving see God is made manifest in the loving see God is made manifest in the loving relationships that we have on earth. relationships that we have on earth. relationships that we have on earth. It's one of the reasons that people are It's one of the reasons that people are It's one of the reasons that people are so funny that you know they'll say, you so funny that you know they'll say, you so funny that you know they'll say, you know, why do people get so religious know, why do people get so religious know, why do people get so religious when they have kids? And it's not when they have kids? And it's not when they have kids? And it's not because it's a good way to set down a because it's a good way to set down a because it's a good way to set down a set of rules. set of rules. set of rules. That's that's not it. It's that when you That's that's not it. It's that when you That's that's not it. It's that when you first, you remember this, when you first first, you remember this, when you first first, you remember this, when you first have children and they're so rotten, have children and they're so rotten, have children and they're so rotten, they're so difficult and they go to they're so difficult and they go to they're so difficult and they go to sleep and you're sitting in their room sleep and you're sitting in their room sleep and you're sitting in their room while they're asleep and they got those while they're asleep and they got those while they're asleep and they got those little red cheeks from having been little red cheeks from having been little red cheeks from having been rotten all day long and you're like, I rotten all day long and you're like, I rotten all day long and you're like, I just I love him so much. I love him so just I love him so much. I love him so just I love him so much. I love him so much. Same with my little son Carlos much. Same with my little son Carlos much. Same with my little son Carlos when Carlos was always the troublemaker. when Carlos was always the troublemaker. when Carlos was always the troublemaker. I love him so much. And then I would say I love him so much. And then I would say I love him so much. And then I would say and that's how God feels about me and that's how God feels about me and that's how God feels about me because I'm lying in my bed and and and because I'm lying in my bed and and and because I'm lying in my bed and and and and the and God is saying Arthur was so and the and God is saying Arthur was so and the and God is saying Arthur was so rotten today, rotten today, rotten today, >> but I love him so much. It's that the >> but I love him so much. It's that the >> but I love him so much. It's that the whole point is that that the love that whole point is that that the love that whole point is that that the love that we have on earth is a taste. It's a we have on earth is a taste. It's a we have on earth is a taste. It's a foretaste of the divine love that we can foretaste of the divine love that we can foretaste of the divine love that we can all experience. all experience. all experience. >> That's my belief. And and so to not >> That's my belief. And and so to not >> That's my belief. And and so to not practice that, to not practice divine practice that, to not practice divine practice that, to not practice divine love and the and the model of divine love and the and the model of divine love and the and the model of divine love on earth, it's a it's malfeasants love on earth, it's a it's malfeasants love on earth, it's a it's malfeasants on my part. And the last thing that I do on my part. And the last thing that I do on my part. And the last thing that I do as I go to sleep, there's an Eastern as I go to sleep, there's an Eastern as I go to sleep, there's an Eastern Orthodox practice. The Eastern Orthodox Orthodox practice. The Eastern Orthodox Orthodox practice. The Eastern Orthodox monks, they have a prayer that the monks, they have a prayer that the monks, they have a prayer that the further east you go in Christianity, the further east you go in Christianity, the further east you go in Christianity, the closer you get to Eastern religious closer you get to Eastern religious closer you get to Eastern religious practices, the more you get toward practices, the more you get toward practices, the more you get toward karmic religious practices. Not to say karmic religious practices. Not to say karmic religious practices. Not to say the karmic religious doctrine, but the the karmic religious doctrine, but the the karmic religious doctrine, but the practices are very similar. The Eastern practices are very similar. The Eastern practices are very similar. The Eastern Orthodox monks have what's called the Orthodox monks have what's called the Orthodox monks have what's called the Jesus Prayer that they'll pray again and Jesus Prayer that they'll pray again and Jesus Prayer that they'll pray again and again and again. And there's a very again and again. And there's a very again and again. And there's a very famous book called the the the way of a famous book called the the the way of a famous book called the the the way of a pilgrim about a a just a a a mendicant pilgrim about a a just a a a mendicant pilgrim about a a just a a a mendicant beggar walking around praying this Jesus beggar walking around praying this Jesus beggar walking around praying this Jesus prayer because a a a a prayer because a a a a prayer because a a a a monk told him that he should pray the monk told him that he should pray the monk told him that he should pray the Jesus prayer 10,000 times a day. That's Jesus prayer 10,000 times a day. That's Jesus prayer 10,000 times a day. That's all he had to do with his life. Here's all he had to do with his life. Here's all he had to do with his life. Here's here's the Jesus prayer. Lord Jesus here's the Jesus prayer. Lord Jesus here's the Jesus prayer. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have Christ, son of the living God, have Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. And you pray the mercy on me a sinner. And you pray the mercy on me a sinner. And you pray the first half as you breathe in and the first half as you breathe in and the first half as you breathe in and the second half as you breathe out. And then second half as you breathe out. And then second half as you breathe out. And then you link it up with your heart and then you link it up with your heart and then you link it up with your heart and then it becomes your life. That prayer it becomes your life. That prayer it becomes your life. That prayer becomes your life. The last 15 years becomes your life. The last 15 years becomes your life. The last 15 years I've gone to sleep praying that prayer I've gone to sleep praying that prayer I've gone to sleep praying that prayer every night. That's the last thing every night. That's the last thing every night. That's the last thing >> on my lips. >> on my lips. >> on my lips. >> Do you know this uh therapist called >> Do you know this uh therapist called >> Do you know this uh therapist called Phil Stuts? Phil Stuts? Phil Stuts? >> Yeah. Yeah. Famous. Because you know he >> Yeah. Yeah. Famous. Because you know he >> Yeah. Yeah. Famous. Because you know he had that he had the documentary made had that he had the documentary made had that he had the documentary made about about about >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh he he he's been on the >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh he he he's been on the >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh he he he's been on the show a couple times. He's become a show a couple times. He's become a show a couple times. He's become a friend and uh Julie and I have gone to friend and uh Julie and I have gone to friend and uh Julie and I have gone to see him. Um and uh you know this is a see him. Um and uh you know this is a see him. Um and uh you know this is a guy who specializes in treating stvers guy who specializes in treating stvers guy who specializes in treating stvers right like his whole career has been and right like his whole career has been and right like his whole career has been and he has this operating philosophy that he has this operating philosophy that he has this operating philosophy that that um one of the primary reasons why that um one of the primary reasons why that um one of the primary reasons why uh you know these these super successful uh you know these these super successful uh you know these these super successful people are so unhappy is because they uh people are so unhappy is because they uh people are so unhappy is because they uh deny three unassalable truths deny three unassalable truths deny three unassalable truths >> that life is is uh I have it on my wrist >> that life is is uh I have it on my wrist >> that life is is uh I have it on my wrist pain, the need for constant work. And pain, the need for constant work. And pain, the need for constant work. And where does it say here? where does it say here? where does it say here? >> They deny pain. >> They deny pain. >> They deny pain. >> They uh well, basically the the what the >> They uh well, basically the the what the >> They uh well, basically the the what the re the reason for the unhappiness is re the reason for the unhappiness is re the reason for the unhappiness is that there is a belief that if they that there is a belief that if they that there is a belief that if they reach a certain level, they won't have reach a certain level, they won't have reach a certain level, they won't have to suffer pain. They will uh they won't to suffer pain. They will uh they won't to suffer pain. They will uh they won't have to deal with uncertainty and they have to deal with uncertainty and they have to deal with uncertainty and they can retire from having to do any work can retire from having to do any work can retire from having to do any work and work work defined broadly, right? and work work defined broadly, right? and work work defined broadly, right? And so disabusing people of this, And so disabusing people of this, And so disabusing people of this, there's always going to be pain. There's there's always going to be pain. There's there's always going to be pain. There's always going to be a need for more work always going to be a need for more work always going to be a need for more work and and life is uncertain. And so once and and life is uncertain. And so once and and life is uncertain. And so once you accept that, surrender to that, you accept that, surrender to that, you accept that, surrender to that, there's a liberation and a freedom. there's a liberation and a freedom. there's a liberation and a freedom. Yeah. But he's also I mean he's kind of Yeah. But he's also I mean he's kind of Yeah. But he's also I mean he's kind of an iconoclass, but he's he's a an iconoclass, but he's he's a an iconoclass, but he's he's a profoundly spiritual person. profoundly spiritual person. profoundly spiritual person. >> And he essentially like he understands >> And he essentially like he understands >> And he essentially like he understands my wife and me and he basically he's my wife and me and he basically he's my wife and me and he basically he's he's almost like a mind reader. like he he's almost like a mind reader. like he he's almost like a mind reader. like he can read energy and he just he just can read energy and he just he just can read energy and he just he just knows people, you know, knows people, you know, knows people, you know, >> huge crystized intelligence >> huge crystized intelligence >> huge crystized intelligence unbelievable. unbelievable. unbelievable. >> And he just he's he just said to me, >> And he just he's he just said to me, >> And he just he's he just said to me, "The solution that you're looking for," "The solution that you're looking for," "The solution that you're looking for," he goes, "It's all about your wife. It's he goes, "It's all about your wife. It's he goes, "It's all about your wife. It's all about you getting more connected all about you getting more connected all about you getting more connected with your wife and then the two of you with your wife and then the two of you with your wife and then the two of you together connecting with the divine." together connecting with the divine." together connecting with the divine." Like in his own words, but he's Like in his own words, but he's Like in his own words, but he's essentially saying a version of what essentially saying a version of what essentially saying a version of what you're telling me. I believe. you're telling me. I believe. you're telling me. I believe. >> And he's like, "This is the path that >> And he's like, "This is the path that >> And he's like, "This is the path that you have to walk you have to walk you have to walk >> if you want to if you want to liberate >> if you want to if you want to liberate >> if you want to if you want to liberate yourself from." yourself from." yourself from." >> And she's been put in your life for a >> And she's been put in your life for a >> And she's been put in your life for a reason. She Look, Rich, reason. She Look, Rich, reason. She Look, Rich, >> she's your guru. >> she's your guru. >> she's your guru. >> Julie's your guru. You have to be close >> Julie's your guru. You have to be close >> Julie's your guru. You have to be close to your guru. There is no other way. to your guru. There is no other way. to your guru. There is no other way. She's been put on earth as your channel She's been put on earth as your channel She's been put on earth as your channel to the divine. >> I know it's true. I know it's true. Uh >> I know it's true. I know it's true. Uh and uh I I have I have some work to do, and uh I I have I have some work to do, and uh I I have I have some work to do, I suppose. I suppose. I suppose. >> Yeah, for sure. We do. Look, this is why >> Yeah, for sure. We do. Look, this is why >> Yeah, for sure. We do. Look, this is why we look, this is why we get 90 years. we look, this is why we get 90 years. we look, this is why we get 90 years. This is why we get all this time. You This is why we get all this time. You This is why we get all this time. You know, if you were 10 years old and and know, if you were 10 years old and and know, if you were 10 years old and and and and and enlightened, it would be a and and and enlightened, it would be a and and and enlightened, it would be a different matter. But we don't get that. different matter. But we don't get that. different matter. But we don't get that. Look, there's a reason in the karmic Look, there's a reason in the karmic Look, there's a reason in the karmic religions that they talk about that we religions that they talk about that we religions that they talk about that we get all these years because we're trying get all these years because we're trying get all these years because we're trying to make progress. And and if you were at to make progress. And and if you were at to make progress. And and if you were at 59 years old, you were there already. It 59 years old, you were there already. It 59 years old, you were there already. It means it's time to die. And it's not means it's time to die. And it's not means it's time to die. And it's not time to die yet. It's time to live right time to die yet. It's time to live right time to die yet. It's time to live right now and to learn more. Look, I write now and to learn more. Look, I write now and to learn more. Look, I write books about this stuff and I struggle books about this stuff and I struggle books about this stuff and I struggle with it. I struggle with it. And this with it. I struggle with it. And this with it. I struggle with it. And this actually the reason I write the books actually the reason I write the books actually the reason I write the books about it is because it's part of my about it is because it's part of my about it is because it's part of my pilgrimage. This show is your pilgrimage. This show is your pilgrimage. This show is your pilgrimage. That's what it's really all pilgrimage. That's what it's really all pilgrimage. That's what it's really all about. And you making progress. Like about. And you making progress. Like about. And you making progress. Like I've known you for a bunch of years and I've known you for a bunch of years and I've known you for a bunch of years and >> I've seen progress and that's a >> I've seen progress and that's a >> I've seen progress and that's a beautiful thing. I appreciate that, man. beautiful thing. I appreciate that, man. beautiful thing. I appreciate that, man. Um, let's close it down with just a few Um, let's close it down with just a few Um, let's close it down with just a few thoughts for the the viewer uh or the thoughts for the the viewer uh or the thoughts for the the viewer uh or the listener um to synopsize this whole idea listener um to synopsize this whole idea listener um to synopsize this whole idea of meaning, how to how to capture more of meaning, how to how to capture more of meaning, how to how to capture more of it and engender your life with uh the of it and engender your life with uh the of it and engender your life with uh the beauty that it makes available. Your beauty that it makes available. Your beauty that it makes available. Your life has meaning. It does. Can you life has meaning. It does. Can you life has meaning. It does. Can you articulate it? Probably not. That's articulate it? Probably not. That's articulate it? Probably not. That's fine. But you get the opportunity to go fine. But you get the opportunity to go fine. But you get the opportunity to go in search of it in search of it in search of it to in so doing for it to find you. And to in so doing for it to find you. And to in so doing for it to find you. And when it does, the richness that your when it does, the richness that your when it does, the richness that your life will have will be beyond what you life will have will be beyond what you life will have will be beyond what you could have possibly imagined. could have possibly imagined. could have possibly imagined. Do the work to find the meaning of your Do the work to find the meaning of your Do the work to find the meaning of your life. And the payoff will be something life. And the payoff will be something life. And the payoff will be something that will be made manifest in a life that will be made manifest in a life that will be made manifest in a life that will lift other people up and bring that will lift other people up and bring that will lift other people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and them together in bonds of happiness and them together in bonds of happiness and love, which is ultimately why I believe love, which is ultimately why I believe love, which is ultimately why I believe we're put on earth. we're put on earth. we're put on earth. >> I love you, Arthur. I love you, Rich. >> I love you, Arthur. I love you, Rich. >> I love you, Arthur. I love you, Rich. Fantastic. Fantastic. Fantastic. >> Thank you so much uh for for sharing >> Thank you so much uh for for sharing >> Thank you so much uh for for sharing today. I appreciate you. today. I appreciate you. today. I appreciate you. >> Yeah, likewise. >> Yeah, likewise. >> Yeah, likewise. >> All right. Will you be my accountability >> All right. Will you be my accountability >> All right. Will you be my accountability partner? partner? partner? >> Yeah, if you'll be mine. Okay. >> Yeah, if you'll be mine. Okay. >> Yeah, if you'll be mine. Okay. >> All right. Until next time. Thank you. >> All right. Until next time. Thank you. >> All right. Until next time. Thank you. Bye. Peace.