Gut Expert: Eat This ONE Food (96% Aren’t — It’s Decreasing Your Lifespan) | Dr. Emily Leeming

Key Takeaway

Start with just 7 extra grams of fiber per day—half a can of beans—to significantly lower your risk of chronic disease. Use the 4-3-2 method when building meals: make a quarter of your plate whole grains, add a third of a can of beans, and include two tablespoons of nuts or seeds. This simple framework delivers 10 grams of fiber per meal without weighing anything, putting you on track to hit the 30-gram daily target that only 4% of people currently achieve.

Episode Overview

Dietitian Emily Leming explains why 96% of people aren't getting enough fiber and how this deficiency contributes to metabolic dysfunction affecting 60-90% of the population. She breaks down fiber's wide-ranging health benefits—from fueling gut microbes that produce disease-fighting molecules to reducing inflammation and balancing blood sugar—and provides practical strategies to increase intake gradually using her 4-3-2 method.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Gut Expert: Eat This ONE Food (96% Aren’t — It’s Decreasing Your Lifespan) | Dr. Emily Leeming from Feel Better, Live More. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

96% of people are not getting enough fiber. Why is this such a serious issue for our health? I think there's so many ways to to come across that. I mean, fiber really has been seen as being this kind of dull, bland, you know, boring stodge that's simply there to help us do a nice poo. It's not really something that's been on people's radar as something interesting and worthwhile having. Yet, so many of us are struggling to to get the fiber we need. And what's this fiber actually even doing?

There's so many things it's doing for our health. It's actually one of the most researched nutrients in terms of having an impact on our health. We're looking at things like your heart health. So it helps to lower kind of bad cholesterol levels. cholesterol levels. cholesterol levels. It helps to balance your blood sugar control. So things like type two diabetes risk in later life, but also this kind of new science around the gut microbiome and really fiber being that key fuel that feeds your gut microbiome for a thriving microbiome that's going to make molecules for your health.

If I think back to when I was a kid, I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I kind of feel people were talking about fiber. about fiber. about fiber. What's different today? What do we know now? What does the latest science show us which makes it even more important perhaps today that we actually think about this nutrient and how much of it we're eating. So the gut microbiome science for example, we're talking about the last 20 years. Now a lot of the research that we have around fiber is really actually centered around heart health and the risk of heart disease.

So that's really where a lot of recommendations, so that recommendation for 30 grams of fiber a day is kind of based mostly on kind of heart health recommendations, some kind of bowel cancer recommendations, also kind of type two diabetes risk. But the recommendations that we have aren't actually centered around what does your gut microbiome need because that has only been, you know, a lot more recent and a and a huge amount of science that's happened in that space since. But I think that's really brought fiber to the front of hold on a second.

This is a whole another aspect of fiber that we hadn't fully even appreciated that is really essential for us to have this thriving gut microbiome. These, you know, trillions of tiny living organisms that are a cornerstone of our health, a forgotten organ, if you will, because, you know, we didn't even know it existed. And yet now we really recognize that it is kind of foundational um not just for your digestion and I think this is where again fiber has really shifted from talking about you know talking about gut health talking about the gut microbiome and talking about fiber collectively has moved from talking around okay it's simply good for digestion simply good for doing a nice you know smooth poo this is all a bit awkward embarrassing to hold on this is foundational for our entire body health and this is something we need to be talking about and I think that's where really fiber has now stepped into the spotlight more and is finally getting the recognition it deserves.

In fiber power, you talk about at least 10 different benefits of fiber when we're thinking about our health and well-being, you know, uh cancer risk, brain power and memory, healthy aging, etc., etc. I thought what might be quite fun is to go through each of the 10 and just get a little understanding of how fiber helps us with each one of those because as you say actually if you want to live well for as long as you can fiber is going to help you. So the first one I think you write about is it's fuel for your microbes.

You I guess you've kind of just touched on that but what is it we need to understand about fiber in that context? I think what's key about fiber is the fact that it's almost this rebel nutrient. And what I mean when I say that is that when we think about your digestion, your digestion starts in your mouth and it goes down to your stomach where you've got this kind of swirling sack of acid and then it's your small intestine. It's almost like this kind of garden hose pipe um that is part of the next stage in your digestion.

Now the small intestine is a bit of a misnomer. It's actually pretty long and that's where 90% of the nutrients um that you eat get absorbed. So things like protein, fats, simple carbohydrates, that's really getting absorbed into your body for your body to use for energy and nutrition. What's happening there that's different with fiber is that fiber is resisting being used by your body. We don't have the enzymes, our body doesn't have the enzymes to break down fiber. So actually what happens is that fiber then passes through to the lower intestine which we previously only really thought of as this almost like sausage packing factory getting ready for poo to kind of be shipped you know bit further down and out into the toilet.

But actually this is the home to your gut microbiome. These trillions of tiny living organisms. And so this fiber is landing on their kitchen table meaning that they then can feed on this fiber that helps them to grow to multiply. But actually what we really get excited about with the gut microbiome is them making molecules for your health and in particular a group of molecules called short-chain fatty acids. And it's these short- chain fatty acids which really help with the health of um the cells that line your gut barrier lining.

They kind of act like battery chargers, you know, providing energy, but they also can be absorbed into your body and travel around to different sites and really support your health in that way. One key example just to show that how far reaching these short- chain fatty acids are, they help to kind of support the bloodb brain barrier, which is this kind of protective membrane that kind of stops uh toxins getting into your brain, but also helps kind of nutrients pass through. So, they've got many different actions that are happening around your body.

So that fiber is so key and instrumental for that thriving gut microbiome to do the job it needs to do for our health. There's been this growing awareness over the past years of the importance of gut health, right? And as you say, there are all kinds of benefits for the rest of the body. I guess you've just shared one of the possible mechanisms there, which is the fiber that you eat interacts with the gut bugs and that makes short- chain fatty acids and we know those short- chain fatty acids go all around the body.

They can have positive effects on the immune system, be anti-inflammatory, etc., etc. And as you say, can even impact the bloodb brain barrier. So really, it goes way beyond just the digestive tract, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think what I really like to think about and I think you talk about this a lot in terms of health as well is thinking about how do I feel in the here and now and how do I feel kind of later kind of in terms of disease risk.

And I think you know the gut microbiome is absolutely one piece of the puzzle in terms of linking that with disease risk later in life but also in kind of thinking about how is it influencing how we feel daytoday. And I think we do talk a lot about fiber in the gut microbiome, but also fiber is doing so much without necessarily even, you know, feeding our gut microbes because actually there's lots of different types of fiber. And I'm sure we'll go into this. Um, some types of fiber feed your microbes.

Some types of fiber don't, but they're also helping how you feel in the here and now and also later on. So examples like that are balancing your blood sugars. So when you have a meal, you then have energy that lasts longer throughout the day and you kind of feel like you've got focus and you can kind of get on with what you need to be doing because you're not kind of on this kind of roller coaster ride. Um same with helping you feel full and satisfied.

That's then going to help to um you know mean that you're not kind of feeling really hungry and kind of scratching around for snacks during the day. When many of us think about diet or food or how we might want to eat, a lot of us think about fat, protein, and carbs, okay, we think about those three things and, you know, often talk about what we're doing with our diet relative to those three macronutrients. You know, protein, of course, has been all the rage for a few years now.

People talking about how much protein you need, scientists and researchers arguing about how much protein you need. Should you measure it at each meal or you know all kinds of things but do you think that we have over prioritized prioritized prioritized other nutrients at the expense of fiber? I think with protein in particular I think we really went down a kind of you know protein was prompting he had the stage to himself. There was no one else kind of invited to the table. Uh and yes I think it's quite I think it's quite difficult.

We've got to have a nuance conversation around this. Protein of course is important and you know quite often most of us do need to be getting a bit more protein but I think with nutrition we become so hyperfocused like a telescope lens on one single thing that then means that there's just not room at the table to bring all these kind of other nutrients or other kind of dietary components to play with fiber. You know I think there's some concern. Hold on. fiber's now the big, you know, the new kid on the block that we're all talking about.

And it's like, oh, we're going to have the same problem again. And I actually think it's a very different case. And the reason I say that is that protein foods um that you know, most of us, you know, if we're eating animal-based foods like chicken, fish, eggs do not contain any fiber. But fiber containing foods do tend to contain some protein. So you kind of by already getting like this mix and medley of yes, you're still supporting your protein levels in some way. So I think there's less of a concern that we're going to end up just having a massive switch to another nutrient, but I do think it it means that we do need to just be thinking collectively.

Like in my book for example, I very clearly have the recipes as both meeting protein needs and both meeting fiber needs because I think we just need to stop having this, you know, one or the other. Let's think of it all collectively and that's what's going to make you feel great. but really recognizing that where where's the spot that we're really really struggling with and actually if you break down um you know the kind of general nutrition guidelines they often get kind of um summarized into kind of nine key kind of recommendations for the UK dietary guidelines.

So things like fruits and vegetables, you know, are you having your five a day? Um are you having, you know, below a certain amount of kind of free sugars? Um things like saturated fat and kind of processed and red meat. of all those nine, the one we're really doing the worst on, so worse than sugar, worse than how many people are having fruit and vegetables is fiber. So I that's, you know, 4% of people are meeting that recommendation. Um 25% of people still very low amount of people are generally meeting their five fruit and veg a day.

So we need to be doing a lot more work across the board. But that one key element where we can make a massive um difference is the gap that we have that's the biggest and that's where fiber is. Only 4% of us are meeting that recommendation. I mean that's staggering. And then I think about the the current state of population health. Let's say here in the UK, we know that many people, I think in the UK it's around 60% or at least 60%, but I know in America this is 90% of people have some degree of metabolic dysfunction.

metabolic dysfunction. metabolic dysfunction. Okay? And regular listeners of this podcast will know, but if anyone's tuning in for the first time, you know, poor metabolic health is one of the root cause drivers of multiple chronic diseases, heart attacks, strokes, Alzheimer's, even maybe up to 40% of cancers we think are related to um some form of metabolic dysregulation. Right? So I think if a large part of the population population population are metabolically disregulated and only 4% of the population are meeting the fiber guidelines, is there a correlation there?

Should should we put those things together and go actually you've already mentioned how fiber helps with blood sugar but do you think for example that if we were as a population able to increase our fiber intake that actually our metabolic health is also likely to improve. Oh absolutely. I mean we have really strong evidence like concrete kind of longterm studies um you know meta analyses of observational studies that show that there is an associated risk you know stepwise of how much you increase your fiber by to a lower risk of type 2 diabetes heart disease colon cancer um and even looking at things like for example your HBA1C which is your kind of report card of your blood sugar control over kind of a three-month period you know lower levels of that with eating more fiber.

And I think, you know, it's it's you don't have to go from zero to to hero. I think, you know, ideally we want to be working our way up to that 30 grams and if not perhaps a little bit beyond as well. That's still a kind of an area of unknown that we don't know much about in terms of the true, you know, how much more sizable are benefits at maybe 40 or 50 grams. We don't necessarily have the research there yet. But even just a small amount of fiber, just seven grams more um on top of what you're already eating has, you know, significant is related to significantly lower risk.

That's the same as having uh a half a can of beans. That's how much more, you know, we're adding. That's not that much adding to your plate. your plate. your plate. Yeah. Just reading your book over the last few days actually has reminded me about the importance of fiber. Again, it's it's not that I don't know that, right? But we all get stuck in certain patterns of eating, right? And just reading the book reminding me go, "Oh, you know what? You can just add some nuts and seeds to this, you know, like I used to do that.

Then maybe I was in a habit of not doing that." Like last night, I had some coconut yogurt, blueberries, and I added some nuts and seeds and peacans because of reading fiber power. And and again, it would have been a great meal or or a great snack without that, but it was quite easy to just up my fiber intake by those two small things. That's why I feel so strongly that there are small little changes that we can make. And I think, you know, again, the difference between us understanding about protein, most people will be able to say say, "Hey, can you just list some high protein foods?" They will, you know, list off, you know, eggs, fish, maybe they'll say beans and lentils.

you know, that's that's very much kind of in our in our psyche, in our in in our understanding of of nutrition. But if I say the same about fiber, you know, the room goes quiet. And I totally get that. We think we think, okay, well, hold on. Do I talk about all brand or kind of we talk about a kind of some high fiber cereal or something that we just associate as being quite brown and heavy, but actually, you know, fiber is found in an absolute wealth and range.

I mean, it's pretty much in every plant food. Um, but the key ones that are really kind of high in fiber are things like beans, whole grains, and nuts and seeds. So, yes, fruits and vegetables, fantastic sources of fiber as well, but just don't pack quite as much as those beans, whole grains, and nuts and seeds. And I think I I feel so strongly about how can we break this down? Like what could that look like on your day-to-day? So I kind of talk about something called which I call the kind of 432 method which is when you're building your plate.

Let's just think of this like the starting point to your meal. Doesn't have to be every meal. It's just like if you're thinking about you know how how you're putting your meal together. If you can make a quarter of your plate whole grain. So that could be whole grain pasta, that could be um bular wheat, that could be kind of you know brown rice, whatever kind of um whole grain kind of grains that you have. And then so that's you know four is a quarter quarter your plate.

And then think about a can of beans if you can do the three is a third. So um things like chickpeas, butter beans, canalini beans. There's so many beans out there and they're absolutely delicious. If you could have make sure that you're including in that meal somehow. Or you could be cooking into a sauce, you could be blending it up into a dip, but having that kind of quantity, a third of a can onto your plate and then having some nuts and seeds. So, you know, the the two comes from it being half a handful or just two tablespoons of seeds.

And just having that, you can mix that all into a delicious salad. Add in your chicken, add in your eggs, you know, add in some avocados, some healthy fat, but just if you've got that kind of framework, you are automatically hitting 10 grams of fiber in that meal. And you don't have to weigh anything. And and your sort of well I guess aspirations for people is to go for 10 grams at each meal if you can. So on three meals a day that's your 30 gram target.

Is that right? Yes. And the reason I I say let's go let's split it across the the three meals is that um fiber is is pretty potent. It's pretty powerful. Um if you eat too much too quickly and you're not used to it, your gut needs time to adapt. And actually, it's kind of like your gut microbes have been in kind of famine mode and you're suddenly throwing them a a massive feast and they get a little bit kind of drunk on all the, you know, the Kool-Aid of what's of what's available.

Um, and one of the things that we know our gut microbes do is yes, they make these molecules for our health, but they also make gas as a side effect. So, if you go, you know, straight from naugh to 100 and eat a ton of fiber in one sitting, um, you can potentially end up with having a lot of discomfort in terms of your gut. It's not harmful, but it's kind of like running a marathon if you've never run a marathon before. marathon before. marathon before.

Does that mean then, Emily, some people will say beans gives them gas and wind, right? right? right? And that might be a reason for them to not continue eating it. Are you basically saying, "Look, give it time, build up slowly, and after a month or so, you won't feel that gassy and that windy." Is is that what you're saying? Or will it always make gas to a certain degree? certain degree? certain degree? So, we haven't got that many clear clearcut studies on this. Um, surprisingly, maybe scientists don't want to research farts, but um, uh, we do have some of the studies that I did find, um, when I was looking into this, and actually, funny enough, we're building this into the study that we're running now, which is called the eat fiber study at Kings.

Um, where we're wanting to understand how does, you know, your symptoms change on a weekby- week basis from eating more fiber. Um, but effectively, what we know at the moment tends to be more based around fiber supplement studies. And what we see in the first few weeks is an increase in farts when you're having those fiber supplements. But actually your gut microbes and your gut adapts and actually for those participants their amount of farts went down to what they were before. So I think yes, you probably are going to be a bit more gassy.

But I also think everybody farts. If you can go for a walk after a meal, that's going to be great for your energy levels. Let it rip. You're outside. you know, maybe you can play some music and do it very silently. Um, depending if you've got people around you or maybe you don't have people around you and you can just really, you know, be as musical and and fruity as you need to be. Um, but I think also the key thing is that they're not necessarily going to be smellier.

I think that's probably maybe something that people worry about because the smelly parts of farts and it tends to be just, you know, a gas that makes up kind of 1% of the the kind of gas volume um of of of your farts of which most people are farting, you know, 20 times a day and don't even realize it. it. it. Um that's just very normal. uh it's that 1% that is got that kind of rotten egg smell and that actually comes from kind of uh certain amino acids that are kind of sulfur sulfur based um that tend to be um more in meat.

So if you're a big meat eater that tends to be more a reason of why that might be you've got more kind of stinky farts. Though those compounds are also present in things like broccoli and cauliflab. Obviously those are really good for your health. It's not that we shouldn't eat them, but little things like drinking enough water and fluid to get things moving through at a nice pace, making sure you're moving your body, all these things. And I think that's another reason why in the book I don't just do a four-week plan of slowly increasing your fiber.

There's also lifestyle changes that you make alongside that. So, for example, week one is very flow focusing on drinking enough water because fiber acts a bit like a sponge. And then it's kind of moving your body um all these kind of different and thinking about how can we um you know look after um our kind of mental well-being and that connection between our gut and our brain. So all these things can help. That's one thing I really enjoyed about the four-week plan in the book was that each week there was a yeah a food change and a nonfood change which I think is critically important because there are so many factors that impact our health, our gut microbiome, yes food, but stress, movement, how much we slept, you know, all kinds of things also play a role.

So, I really appreciated the fact that it was quite a holistic approach to, you know, yes, increase your fiber, but also just generally improve your health and well-being. I know I wanted to go through these 10 benefits, and I know we've covered a couple of them. We'll get back to that in just a minute. One thing I think is really worth bringing up here is this idea that everyone everyone everyone is going to hear this message but they could potentially be in a different state of health.

Right? So I totally understand that if you are you know well and you're I don't know teenager or in your 20s or 30s you don't have any problems you're just trying to look after yourself. Yeah, these are great recommendations. You spoke about whole grain pasta, right? Let's say someone has got type two diabetes already. Okay. So, the preventative element of eating fiber to prevent these problems in the future, I wouldn't say it's out the window, but they're at a different point on their health journey. And let's say they have found huge amounts of benefits from adopting a low carb diet.

Some people who do that may be thinking, "Yeah, but on that sort of diet, I don't eat whole grains and I don't have whole wheat breads." I just think it's worth making sure we're keeping those people in mind. Is every element of the recommendations for everyone or in those particular individuals, might it be that, hey, listen, there's many ways to get fiber, but yeah, maybe you're going to benefit from not having these types of fiber and increasing other types. other types. other types. No, absolutely. I mean, I think as you say, like broadly generally, if you're well and healthy, then you know, you can pretty much dive right in and kind of low and slow increase.

But of of course, if you've got type two diabetes or you're on a low carb diet, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's completely um kind of contradictory to to eating more fiber. I think, you know, what's so key is understanding that fiber is present in so many different foods. So, if there are certain foods you might have a food allergy, you might not be able to eat kind of nuts, for example. Um, so there are so many different options and I think you know again in the book I have um tables of different foods in the back so that you can really kind of change and add in what you want and so I really want that to be a kind of flexible approach of also your own preferences like this is how I eat, this is how I feel well.

How can I then adapt? And I mean I used to work as a as a chef for 5 years and I worked a lot with people who had health problems and um dietary preferences. And for me it was always like what are you eating now that works for you? What would you like to change? But and how what do you enjoy and how can I kind of move things that way? I'm not going to come in and completely say you need to have this meal that you absolutely dislike and it's going to make you feel rubbish.

Um so very much what's going to work for you and I think this low carb and high fiber is maybe the going to be the kind of new talking point when we talk about um carbohydrate diets because the same very similar with IBS for example there's been some benefit for some people um in a lower carbohydrate diet there's some evidence there different dietary strategies um but again like kind of just bringing in the language there of low carb but high fiber absolutely possible and not you know one or the other.

Those those exams are really interesting because there's what's the right diet for you right now with your current state of health and then there's also if we work on various aspects of your health how might that change and so you know you mentioned IBS there right so for some people with irritable bowel syndrome and you know there's many different types and you know Each individual is unique and we'll need to find the the right approach for them. But it could be that on a low carbohydrate or a low FODMAP diet, let's say for a few weeks, they feel really good.

They don't get the gas and the bloating and their symptoms are better, right? So there's a temptation then to stay on that diet long term and I get that because they feel good. So why would you want to change that, right? But of course over time we want to see if we can broaden things out for you. Another example which I think we touched on the first time you came on my podcast but I think again it's worth talking about because there are a lot of people who are experiencing relief from their autoimmune symptoms when they go in what's called the carnivore diet, right?

or they go meattheavy and they're cutting out all plant food or virtually all plant foods and they're feeling better in themselves, right? For someone like that, that, that, what would you say to them when it comes to thinking about their fiber intake? I think we need to recognize that if you, you know, quite often if you get to that stage, you know, you're in a a condition that perhaps you've seen multiple multiple doctors and you are just at your absolute wits end to want to find a solution.

So, I totally kind of understand why somebody might want to try a carnival diet, for example, and think, "Oh my goodness, I've just had relief for, you know, this significant period of time." Yeah. Um I I think there there's so many different, you know, individual factors that could be going there, but I probably would say is that we know that longterm in terms of, you know, if that's having short-term relief, but longterm that is not going to be ideal for your health and may end up just um causing more problems later on.

And actually if you can go to for example a dietician or clinician you know have some personalized structured support into you know introducing things back in because it might be that there's some key elements there that you know haven't been picked up on before that you're suddenly like oh hold on actually it was this bit but you've cut out an absolute sathe of everything else that are probably fine and very great for you and supportive of your health. Um, and I think quite often what happens with these very restrictive diets is that they can feel, you know, better, but when, and I think, you know, people, you know, say this, they they bring stuff back in having not had it for a very long time.

Your body can suddenly go, oh, hold on, what's that? And so they're almost stuck in this trap of, oh no, I can't eat anything now, which is completely debilitating as well. And I think you've got to really recognize how that impacts your social life. that impacts, you know, what can you at the supermarket, your time and what you're cooking. Um, also kind of financially. So, I think if we could, you know, have um a lot more support of people being able to connect with with getting that support from from a dietitian for example, because and again I say this in the book, I say if you have a gut health condition, you know, you are you are probably very much in need of specific advice that is unique to you because it is very different from people.

It's all very much, you know, what's going to help you. help you. help you. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that approach. So, whilst you acknowledge that um in the short term certain diets, certain restricted diets may offer symptom relief to people. You're basically saying, look, the the research on fiber is is is pretty damn solid and pretty overwhelming. Okay? If we can, let's see if we can help you over time by starting slowly and by recognizing that there are lots of different types of fiber. Not just one thing you try that go, I'm not good with fiber.

It's like, hold on a minute. Why don't we just try? We'll start small. We'll try some things you haven't tried yet. And let's see if over a period of months we can, you know, increase the range of foods that you potentially have access to. I think that's exactly exactly exactly a really nice approach for people to take. take. take. Let's come back to these benefits. So we've we've done fuel for your microbes. I think you also touched on the second one which was more fiber helps us to lower inflammation.

lower inflammation. lower inflammation. Um anything else you want to say that you mentioned short chain fatty acids. Anything else that's worth commenting on? on? on? Yeah. Yeah. So I think I mean again it's going back to that kind of whole body health and we know that you know low lowgrade inflammation which is kind of like this kind of background wear and tear that may we might not even pick up in terms of how we feel but we you know you might just be not feeling quite right or you might not kind of notice that's happening.

Um, I talk about it a little bit like, um, you're, you know, a train going around a track and if it's going too much at high speed, it, you know, that track might start kind of, the wheels are going to start squeaking and, you know, maybe there's some sparks happening and your body is just getting a little bit too much stress and pressure. And so what we see is that people um in terms of like patterns and populations um that people who eat the most fiber versus people who eat the least fiber tend to have lower levels of this kind of background inflammation.

And this inflammation is often, you know, connected with different disease states. And so it's something that we kind of very much see as like a potential kind of early warning fire um for for what could happen um later down the line. Well, when we think about the topic of gut health, yes, fiber comes up, but so do things like fermented foods, for example. example. example. And And And how would you say the benefits of fermented foods, for example, compare with the benefits of fiber? There was an interesting study done by Stanford University that effectively compared the two.

They did a high fiber arm and they did a um high fermented food arm. people on the who were eating the fermented foods were eating about um seven servings of fermented foods a day. So that's quite a lot. And they kind of you know looked and and tracked them and and looked at what happened towards the end. And actually funny enough in that study they didn't necessarily see that there was um inflammation kind of impact in terms of the fiber, but they did see that with the fermented foods.

Now a lot of that might be like oh hold on that's completely opposite of what you've just said but I think we've got to really program into is it that fiber just needs that bit more much more time this is you know so that when I talked about that pattern in the population that's people who are already eating that diet they probably be eating that way for years and years we tend to eat very similar um consistently in terms of the macronutrients that we eat and this was you know a short-term intervention so I think and I think that just plays back to hold on.

We know if we make changes for our health, we're not just doing it for a couple of weeks. Um, we want to make changes that are simple and practical and that we're going to keep up in the long term. Uh, and I think particularly understanding particularly understanding particularly understanding that fiber feeds the gut microbiome and the microbiome is closely related to your immune system. 70% of your immune system lives in and around your gut and they are, you know, constantly interacting with each other. your gut microbiome from birth is, you know, helping to train and shape your immune system.

system. system. You know, it it's a kind of very kind of strong kind of hypothesis and connection between that being kind of a likely influence. influence. influence. Yeah, I remember that study. I think it was uh Sonnenberg and Chris Garner, wasn't it, who did that? And from recollection, it was only about 30 people in in that study. And I do remember as you say that the fermented food group had lower inflammatory markers and I think it was like 19 inflammatory markers I measured it was lower.

But I think you know we have to bear in mind that a lot of studies are shortterm and of course there's many things that can show a short-term benefits but what we're really looking for is long-term changes. You know sustainable things that we can change that give us those long-term benefits with our health. So on that topic, are you a fan of fermented foods? I absolutely am a fan of fermented foods. And I think again like a lot of fermented foods do naturally inherently contain fiber in them anyway.

They contain so many different um you know phytonutrients for our health. If you think about kimchi, um sauerkraut, you know, all these like fantastic fermented vegetables, um they aren't just containing those kind of live microbes. They've got, you know, this kind of plethora of other benefits that are within them. Um, and I think again it's this is why science is so kind of fun for us scientists and clinicians is that we'll look at different studies and it's just pulling that overall body of evidence together and also you know taking okay can I just think about this through a nuanced understanding that background how can I then interpret the findings from that um and I maybe I have to come back in a year and we've got the the results from our eat fiber study which is running all this year and that is effectively comparing people who are eating 30 grams of fiber to eating 40 gram of fiber and looking at the gut microbiome, looking at uh inflammation, looking at lots of different other risk factors.

Um so we're yeah very excited to hopefully see see what the results of that are. that are. that are. Is that eat fiber study also to try and assess bowel cancer risk in under 50s? Yes, this is a a kind of huge project and initiative which is um a 20 million pound funding which is fronted by Harvard and it's a cancer grand challenges initiative and we are looking at why is bowel cancer rising and people under 50. under 50. under 50. How long has it been rising for?

It's been rising consistently you know we've got each kind of batch of kind of what we call birth cohorts are consistently kind of getting there risk is increasing. So for example in the UK um in 2017 um 5% of the the cases um of bowel cancer were people who were um under 50. Now that's 10%. So that proportion has increased and there seems to be this increasing amount of um people under 50 where those rates are increasing but people this is traditionally a disease that is of people in their 70s.

it's, you know, it's been very much a cancer of of old people and yet levels seem to be stabilizing in in in older adults. Um, and yet we've got these kind of rising risk. So, we're thinking that perhaps there's something that's happening consistently, maybe at an earlier point in life. So, maybe kind of adult, you know, young being a young adult, maybe earlier than that, being a child, or maybe it's, you know, antibiotics when we're when we're in um babies and and children. So there's lots of different potential things.

Is it microplastic? Is there dietary influence? Because we know with um you know bowel cancer that diet is you know probably one of the most central uh players in terms of the different cancers because your gut is directly interacting with the food. You just mentioned an increase in rates from 2017 but were rates going up before that? that? that? Yes. It's it's quite scary in a way of how the the rates are increasing. So if you born in 1990 or afterwards then your risk of getting rectile cancer is potentially quadrupled and your risk of getting colon cancer has doubled versus if you were born in 1950.

So this has been happening for quite some time. And so this eat fiber study you're you're basically trying to see if you can figure out what some of the causes of that might be. We're looking at generally we're looking at healthy participants. So they haven't got bowel cancer. But what we're really wanting to understand is that preventative element. So are there certain risk factors, certain signals that we start seeing in people's biology. So that might be changes in their microbiome, in their blood, in their urine.

There's lots of things that we're collecting and seeing whether by changing their diet, by eating more fiber, but also looking at a variety of fiber. So, we're particularly giving lots of recommendations around can you eat more whole grains, can you eat more beans, can you eat more nuts and seeds that aren't currently in the UK dietary guidelines to have specific quantities for those and seeing whether that is going to make a significant difference in terms of those risk factors. And I think really what's been so um you know instrumental is that we've so wanted to design this study to have very simple actional advice that can come from it.

So it's not something that you're like okay well this is interesting science but what can I do about it the whole principle of the study is can we really you know depending obviously if we get you know positive findings can we give people simple actionable advice based on this and we're comparing it to the current gold standard practice advice which is the UK dietary guidelines guidelines guidelines and so we really can see is this necessarily better necessarily better necessarily better and therefore you know that give people that really kind of confidence that the change they make are, you know, really kind of true to the science that we're seeing.

seeing. seeing. In the meantime, whilst that study is taking place, from your research, can we convincingly say that people generally who have higher fiber diets tend to have a lower risk of certain types of cancer? Yeah, absolutely. So, every for every 10 grams of um fiber that you eat, there's a that's related to a 10% lower risk of bowel cancer. Um but this tends to be that you know this is looking at all types of bowel cancer here. Um so and one of the reasons for that is that uh you know so we have all these different types of fibers.

There are certain types of fibers called insoluble fibers and these are kind of the ones that bulk out your poo and also get things moving through your gut a timely pace. You don't want things to stick around for too long. So it's a little bit like a kind of sweeping broom. It's kind of moving things along, you know, getting things to to move on. Um, and that is very important if we have potentially, you know, problematic kind of compounds that might just, that's naturally just what happens.

Um, maybe things that could end up being carcinogenic. If they're hanging around, those compounds are hanging around in our gut and having too much contact with our gut for too long. Um, because you've got a very slow transit time, you know, things aren't moving. um then that is potentially you know one of the factors that we think is is kind of what's could be kind of triggering um cancer in some people um with this. So that's one of the key reasons that fiber can can be really helpful in that sense in terms of preventing.

preventing. preventing. Okay. So we've got so far fiber is helping us because it's fuel for our microbes our gut microbes I should say. It helps to decrease inflammation in the body, which can have all kinds of other benefits. You mentioned how it can help balance blood sugar and reduce our risk of type 2 diabetes. You've just mentioned cancer. Okay, so I've ticked off four out of the 10. Um, curbs hunger and craving. I think you sort of touched on this before, but anything else we need to know about how and why it curbs hunger and food cravings?

Yeah. So, there's there's lots of different things happening, but mainly really is that fiber does tend to add bulk to the foods that you eat. So, it just makes you feel kind of and that's why you feel kind of fuller is because that bulk is effectively stretching out your stomach and stretching your gut and that is then sending signals to your brain to say, "Oh, great. Hold on. You've uh I think you've eaten enough because I can sense it." Um, so that's one of the reasons why we have that, but also it's the gut microbes that are also involved in this as well.

and they're, you know, really a player in every single aspect of the things that we're talking about. So, they're helping to influence the release of those kind of satiety hormones in your gut. Again, sending messages to your brain saying, "Hello, you know, this is um time. I I feel good now. The meal's over. I've got what I need." Um, so the gut microbes are also playing a role in that as well. Even if we think about curbing hunger and cravings through the lens of what you just said, right?

you're providing bulk and stretching out the stomach. So, it's sending messages to your brain that, hey, I'm full. Now, the amount of people who struggle with their calorie intake, right? I'm not saying necessarily to focus on calories. I'm just simply saying that, you know, yes, as a population, we're putting on weight. And of course, a lot of people are trying to reduce their visceral fat levels and all kinds of other things related to weight. It could be if you're trying to moderate how much you eat, maybe increasing your fiber intake is a very quick and easy win there.

win there. win there. I think also the biggest shift that I see and I think, you know, I hope my mom doesn't mind me talking about here that in the sense that she's wanting to lose weight. She's postmenopausal. She has kind of gained a bit of weight in later life. And she's of the generation where, you know, you if you wanting to lose weight, you make, you know, whatever's on your plate, a tiny tiny little kind of bird-sized amount of food. And then she's absolutely ravenous.

She's so hungry. And then she's kind of stressing about, okay, well, I just ended up having loads of biscuits cuz I was so hungry. And I think this is such a different way of eating where if you're putting loads of fiber on your plate, you are eating in abundance. You eating, you know, what feels like a very like um almost indulgent amount of food. It feels like it's so refreshing versus particularly for women where we're kind of kind of almost institutionalized to, oh god, we've only got to have a a small amount.

Um, this is, you know, eat to your fullness. Eat, you know, and enjoy it. And it's different, lots of different colors and lots of different flavors. It's a very joyful way of eating that these foods that are high in fiber are naturally lower in calories. They contain a lot of different micronutrients for your health, meaning that yes, you're eating more fiber, but reaching many of your other micronutrient needs as well without necessarily needing to think about it. You feel full, you feel energized, and I think, you know, going through the day where you feel like you've able to focus, you're able to do the things you want to do, and you're taking care of both your body and your gut microbiome.

Um, it's and it doesn't feel restrictive. restrictive. restrictive. Yeah. You mentioned before how you used to be a chef and I remember from our first conversation I didn't get around to asking you because I think was it you used to be a chef on yachts from recollection. recollection. recollection. Yes. Yes. Yes. What do you think that those years of being a chef for people on yachts? What do you think that taught you about nutrition? nutrition? nutrition? Oh, I think it taught me so much. Um and I think I think I was quite shocked when I went and did so I did my undergraduate in nutrition worked as a chef for 5 years and then when I did my masters in um dietetics I remembered it was me and one other person could chop an onion and I thought how are you interested in nutrition but don't know how to cook because it was so foundational to me that of course if your interest in food and the impact that food has on your health then you need to have a deep rooted understanding of what flavors go together how can you food joyful and and also cooking for other people.

Um I think it constantly makes me think about that person likes to eat in this certain way or has these certain requirements and you can you know I think on superyachts there's no such word as no. So you know if somebody says they want to eat bread but they don't eat grains you know I think I had one I mean it was a disaster and it was disgusting so please no one try this but you know I made bread out of broccoli. I was like but but you know we made it happen.

Um, and so and so and so bread without the grains and uh it was so you kind of you know where there's a will there's a way and and I think it I so saw play out time and time again where you know quite often people would want to come in and have you know just a massive health kick and they wouldn't want to have anything that was sweet and delicious and yet they would then completely kind of fall into a pit and and you know go and have uh you know a very indulgent meal or just like, you know, be rifling through the snack cupboard.

And so, it was just something where I just saw this pattern of, yes, we needed to think about things most days. I think that's something that's been really instrumental with how I think about nutrition. It's can we make changes for our health most days that work for you, that you enjoy, food that you enjoy, and you'll eat, but of course, still have those delicious little things here and there. Um, because that's also part of a balanced lifestyle. lifestyle. lifestyle. What do they think of your broccoli bread?

Um, I think more the deck hands were I rate because it crumbled all over the deck and I think they had to wash it all away. Um, what do you even put on broccoli bread? Like how do you put jam on it or marmalade? marmalade? marmalade? We were we were racing for a regata and um yeah, I think it was, you know, had all the kind of fillings but it just disintegrating as the poor man was trying to trying to eat it. I'm sure a valuable life experience, right?

you know, being in what many might regard as a privileged environment, but having to work and actually, you know, cook food and cater to people's tastes. Do you think your experience on those yachts has helped you design recipes in this book? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I was like, I know what I mean. I I really set myself I was like, I want all the nutrition targets that I want to meet, but mostly I want it to be affordable, simple, practical. you know, I was making, you know, doing the doing the development only using one or two pans.

I was like, "No, this is, you know, it's going to be simple, but at the heart of it, it's always been this has to be joyful. This has to be delicious." And yes, simple, easy. Yes, hitting all the nutrients, but this needs to just make you feel great. Just when you're from that first mouthful or even just even before the first mouthful, you see it. I mean, the book is packed with color. I was so felt so so strongly about that. So I was like fiber no more of this brown dull stodge you know now this is you know fiber as it should be.

It's colorful vibrant and it's going to make you feel energized and fantastic. What's your favorite recipe in the book? Oo um there's some that have like a emotional connection. For example, there's the carrot cake which my mother always used to make and I've made for my brother's wedding and I've made for a friend's wedding. So that slightly had a few kind of tweaks to amp up the fiber. Um so that's quite close to my heart. Um but I I love all the the kind of salads.

Um there's a a salmon salad um which has got lots of kind of very spring-l like kind of fresh green um kind of peas and and and mint um which is all kind of very delicious and very I guess of of the spring that we're in now. Um but lots of yeah lots of favorites in there. They really are a um I guess a love letter to to fiber. It does very much feel to me that you're trying to trying to trying to make the case for fiber in quite an inspiring and aspirational way.

I think you've done a really good job with that actually. that actually. that actually. Um as I say, it's it's helped me immediately just add a few tweaks. And again, it's not that I don't know that more fiber is good for you, but we all need a reminder from time to time that oh yeah, it's not that hard, right? So I think we've done five benefits so far out of your 10 and I think there's more than 10 but I wrote down 10 as I was going through the book.

I thought this would be quite good. You say that more fiber helps us with healthy aging. How does it help us do that? So in terms of healthy aging, I think you know quite clearly we talked about you know reducing risk later in life but there was really an interesting study a large study done in Australia where they t tracked um older adults for over a decade and what they found was that people who were having the higher fiber diets were 80% more likely to kind of just be living well in terms of having better kind of cognitive reserves kind of moving ability than people who were eating the least.

And I think that really tracks quite nicely onto quite often we see fiber as almost a signal of a general healthy dietary pattern. Um so it's one of the kind of key ways as nutrition researchers that we we tend to see of people eating more fiber. They tend to be eating more fruits and vegetables. They tend to be eating um more whole grains, more beans, nuts and seeds obviously within you know what you choose within that. Um so it's a kind of clear signal that um fiber impactful but also that kind of healthy diet throughout life as well.

Yeah, it's an interesting study. I guess is there a downside to that sort of take in the sense that someone who's eating more fiber is likely to have other helpful components in their diet. They're also, I guess, likely to have more helpful components outside their diets. Like they're probably not drinking alcohol to excess. Maybe they're not smoking as much and is that not what the eat fiber study's trying to address in in some ways is like a direct intervention on increasing fiber to see prospectively what happens.

Yeah, exactly. I mean there is something so my background is this what we call epidemiology which is kind of as you say looking at patterns in populations and as much as you try and you know effectively adjust your analysis to account for these other factors because as you say people tend to eat healthier um tend to perhaps be of a slightly higher income and tend to uh spend more time exercising tend to sleep better. So it's like how can we account for these other factors? So we do in our analyses tend to adjust as much as we can but within that there's still an absolute recognition that that could be a signal of you know other things within that which is why I'm always quite keen to say you know fiber is such a great one for saying we need to get more of and naturally then around that you'll get all the other wonderful things that come with fiber from this whole foods but it's also they're all playing you know it's not just one instrument we're looking we're talking about the orchestra really.

Yeah, that's a beautiful way of looking at it. And I think if we have populations who've been eating high fiber and have been healthy and living with great health spans for multiple decades, multiple decades, multiple decades, you know, it gives us a greater degree of confidence, doesn't it, to go this is likely to be a helpful recommendation. Yeah. And they all layer on top of each other. And I think again the fact that all these studies again have been pulled together and then people have done, you know, what we call like almost like an umbrella.

you pull everyone under an umbrella and then you look at what's the general overview. general overview. general overview. Um, and I think, you know, we are, this is what's so fantastic about talking about fiber is that it's not just a handful of a study here and there for most things. It's really that there is just this this overwhelming amount of evidence and yet it just hasn't really played out in terms of what the public are hearing. are hearing. are hearing. Yeah, you mentioned heart health before, so I'm going to give that a tick.

Mood and mental well-being. How does fiber help us here? So this is one where there is this is like newer research into how we're looking at it. Um what we see in terms of mood and uh kind of memory is again stepping back to that what is a general dietary pattern that is healthy and that does tend to be higher in fiber but of course recognizing that there are other components that are important for brain health in that. So we know for example in the Smiles trial which was a Mediterranean dietary pattern high fiber full of beans, lentils, nuts and seeds, whole grains.

Um what they they saw was that after that intervention and people with depression that 30% of people at the end of it still doing their therapy, still taking their medication but were not seen as falling into that bracket of what is clinically defined as depression. um in comparison to the group who were you know effectively doing what was called a befriending protocol which is like social interactions interactions interactions just so people are not thinking that was a vegan diet there was fatty fish and lean meats in it I'm pretty sure in the smile trial so it was absolutely as well as those things there was these rich diverse arrays of fiber weren't there and I think that that's you know all these foods lots of different colors lots of different textures you're getting an absolute variety of of different types of of fiber fibers in that um that are supporting health.

So we think and again if we think about um brain health um being effectively very similar in terms of how we look after our heart health, we need to be thinking about um supplying nutrients through you know our kind of blood flow uh to our brain. Um and the same is for our heart. We want to make sure that we're not clogging our arteries. So things like blood pressure, blood sugar management, um looking after your cholesterol levels, those are things that fiber all really helpful for but are also really important for your brain health.

Also looking at some kind of early supplement studies that have looked at prebiotic fibers. Now these are particular types of fibers that feed a select group of microbes in your gut to then have a health effect. Um what colleagues at King's College London found with um certain prebiotics is that um these were kind of you know generally well slightly kind of I may think average kind of 60 years old um kind of females uh after I think a couple of months um of taking these probiotics versus the placebo.

They were performing better on cognitive tests that are often used as like early kind of checkings for um signs of of Alzheimer's and dementia. So some kind of kind of cognition benefit there. Um and we do see um in terms of like emotional frameworks again studies from Oxford University um not necessarily seeing people report better mood um because that's kind of quite subjective. It's quite hard to see, but actually seeing that perhaps there's some kind of underlying underlying underlying kind of automatic response that's happening that's making them more drawn towards positive items versus um and and spending less time and less attention on things that are kind of negative.

Wow. You mentioned the term prebiotic there. For people who don't know what that means, can you explain what it is and give some examples? So prebiotics. So you have um fi types of I'm going to talk about it in the terms of fiber because a prebiotic can also not be fiber if we talk about it. You have fermentable fibers which are really the group of fibers that feed your gut microbes. These aren't necessarily what we call prebiotic fibers. They're actually slightly different. That's because those fermentable fibers as a whole are just generally supporting your gut microbiome.

They're generally feeding them. The slight unique difference there is that prebiotic fibers are feeding a specific group or specific number um of bacteria in your gut and so and then having a health benefit that we kind of know about. Um so these tend to be things like inulin galactoolsaccharides galactoolsaccharides galactoolsaccharides um and they you know yes we talk about supplements and I think there's so many you know on the shelves these days but really they're found in everyday foods. So things like garlic, onions, um leaks, asparagus, uh lots of different probiotics just naturally embedded in the foods that we eat.

Uh and these are all helping to support your gut health. Yeah. What I think is really great about the prebiotic research and how we apply it in our own lives is that, you know, food has got more and more expensive, right? But onions, garlics, leaks are cheaper foods, aren't they? Yeah. And I think that's what I think we are so bombarded with. Take this expensive supplement, buy this amazing product, and you, you know, it's essential for your gut health and it's going to make all these huge differences.

I really really think though, you know, the benefit you're going to get for most of these, you know, unless it's something that's, you know, clinically, you know, you had a clinician really recommend it for a certain problem, you know, so small and yet you're spending a lot of money on it. Yet those going back to that foundation, you know, building a kind of healthy balance plate, making fiber kind of central for your gut microbes, um that is affordable. It is delicious. It doesn't have to be some, you know, um very fancy, uh you know, special super um you know, it is just, you know, those those everyday delicious um things that we enjoy and and just recognizing.

I think, you know, maybe onions need to be the the superfood of the year. Um they don't ever seem to register on anyone's um you know, health list, but they're they're very good for you. I love cooking with red onions. Like I absolutely love it. And they make they make any dish better. I'm always like the base of any dish. Onions, garlic, you know, you're already on a flying start. So someone's heard up to this point, Emily, and they're like, "Right, that's me. I'm going to get on my fiber game now." And they come and see you.

What do you say to them? I think there's key things. It's like how can we recognize which foods are the highest in fiber so that we can make it easy when you go shopping? Um, so I know I think I talked about this last time I on the podcast. I'm going to going to do it again. Um, but I talk about the BGBGs. BGBGs. BGBGs. BGB BGB BGB G S. G S. G S. So these stand for so Berries. Now, when I'm highlighting berries in particular is because any fruit that has some seeds in it are going to be naturally higher in fiber than other types of fruits.

So, this is obviously a kind of bit of a rough and ready approach, but we're thinking about things like raspberries, blackberries, but also some things that maybe won't fall necessarily into the barrier category, but things like passion fruit, for example, if you think about those seeds. So that's just a really kind of useful way of okay, if I'm thinking about fruit, the ones that are high in fiber are going to be the berries. Then we're talking about greens. This is an basically thinking about green vegetables.

Again, just a kind of rough and ready kind of kind of easy way to think about which vegetables are higher in fiber. So, thinking about things like garden peas, um thinking about green beans, thinking about broccoli, you've got kale, um a lot of different kind of green vegetables. I might also I know that technically avocado is a fruit. Um but I always seem to I'm just going to put it in the vegetable category. Um avocado surprisingly high in fiber. Um and I think again this is where we've got to shift away from thinking that anything that is crunchy is high in fiber because that's not really the case.

That's one thing I remember from our first conversation very well is that avocado has got quite a high amount of fiber in it which I don't think I knew up until that point. I think like many people associated with you know so-called healthy fats but it's also rich in fiber. It's one of the highest I mean again if we put in the vegetable category it's one of the highest ones in fiber in terms of vegetables. For this acronym you've gone for berries and green veg. If we broaden out beyond berries, other types of fruit of course have fiber in them as well.

Is the reason you've gone for berries is to highlight that actually if you're looking across the category of fruit, berries tend to be higher in fiber. Yeah, these are really like your high fiber heroes that I just kind of, you know, want to make them regular features on your plate. when you're going to the shop, you know, going to the supermarket, you can think, okay, well, I'm going to make sure I have some of these around because it's going to make me hitting my fiber requirements that much easier.

But of course, all vegetables, all fruit, fantastic source of fiber. This is more just a kind of quick hit list. Okay? Like for example, with, you know, fruit pears, really fantastic source of fiber. Um, this is why at the back of my book, I have a whole section of the list of the different fruits. I have a list of the different vegetables so you can see yourself. Okay. Well, that's that that's got that. got that. got that. Do you know if hard pears are different in fiber content in any way than when it's sort of super ripe?

There is this change. And I think particularly the most of the research has been around bananas actually. And if we think about a banana obviously has a bit of a life course, doesn't it? It starts, you know, we buy it and it maybe it's still got that little bit of tinge of green on it. And we might start eating it when that skin turns yellow and then it might hang around in our fruit bowl and get kind of brown and spotty and um you know slightly change shape a little bit.

So they've looked at actually the resistant starch content of that banana at different kind of phases of the banana's life. And resistant starch is um kind of newly added into the fiber family. Um and from you can tell from its name resistant being kind of rebelling against being digested by your body. body. body. Yeah. and therefore kind of passing through to your gut microbes. And what those kind of just ripe bananas, you can ta tell when you taste them. They're less sweet. They actually have kind of higher amounts of resistant starch.

But that then kind of transforms into kind of simpler kind of more sweet sugary flavors um as that banana ripens. So that kind of level of overall fiber is getting a little bit less, which of course in terms of your health isn't really, you know, doesn't make that huge difference. It's just an occasional banana here and there. Um, but I did kind of cheekily use that as an excuse in um, my book for the banana recipe. Um, I always want to make banana bread when I don't happen to have lovely, you know, very brown ripe bananas, which you're meant to use, you know, the very spotty kind.

And so I purposely made the banana bread recipe with the, you know, more high resistant starch bananas. Of course, you can use what you want, but I think I'm always like, I want to make banana bread, so I'll buy the bananas and then they're never quite at that stage. So, stage. So, stage. So, but but potentially has a little bit more fiber. more fiber. more fiber. Yeah, exactly. So, win-win. So, it's win-win. So, so it totally fits the book, right? I I love it. Okay, we've got B for berries, G for green veg, then there's another B.

What's that? that? that? It's got And then So, now we're in like the big fiber hitters. Okay, so Wow. So, we've just had like a warm We've had this been the opening act. Yeah, the opening act. Um because as wonderful as fruits and vegetables are, we we need to be eating more of them. They often don't tend to contain as much fiber as beans. And also the next one is grains and whole grains. And then S is seeds as in nuts and seeds. So these are the three that you know really if you're getting those regularly in on a day-to-day basis, it's going to make it that much easier to reach your 30 grams of fiber.

Of course, these are all things that listen to what works for you, your your tastes. you know, if you don't like um you know, nuts and seeds, you can shift to something else. Um but I but I really like it's it's just easy tools to be like, okay, well, actually, I'm going to have some more beans. And beans can be things like, you know, it doesn't have to be adding physical beans into things all the time. It could be that you're blending it into pasta sauces.

I think this is like an absolute kind of trick that we could all be doing. Um, for example, like a tomato sauce, if you blend in some white beans like butter beans or canalini beans, it's going to make it that lovely creamy almost like mascapony like sauce and you're automatically boosting that fiber content. Really great for kids who maybe might feel a bit kind of unsure about trying kind of whole beans. Um, and I also have a recipe where I make a a kind of mac and cheese and it's actually a lot quicker and easier to thicken the sauce with blended beans.

um you can't taste it at all. It's still deliciously rich and cheesy. Um but it just kind of um adds a bit of extra oomph without you realizing it. The thing I get from your book mostly in terms of practical takehome is it's really not that hard. If you are aware of the foods that are rich in fiber and if you start looking at your diet through the lens of fiber, whatever your dietary choice is, right, vegan, omnivore, you know, Mediterranean, actually, it it sort of doesn't matter unless you're kind of super strict carnivore and not having any plants at all, and we covered that earlier on in the podcast.

I think pretty much for anyone else, anyone else, anyone else, it's not that hard once you know where these foods live. Absolutely. And I I really felt so strongly in that. I was like, I wanted this to be uh a practical guide. I mean, the whole beginning of the book, that first page says this is for you. Yeah. Because I wanted to just give everybody the simple simple enjoyable tools that you could then make work for your life. I mean, even yes, it's got kind of over 60 recipes, but it's also got what I call the food combos.

You know, each week there's a whole list of ideas of how you could throw ingredients together that aren't necessarily recipes. They're just five things that will help you meet your fiber and your protein. So, that could just be making a bagel that's a BLT. You know, what do you need to add and what do you need to think about for that? Um, or it could be that it's a breakfast or or a dinner or like sometimes I just like to have a sweet potato with some chicken and some broccoli and what do I need to maybe just have a little bit with that.

Um, so just really simple practical because we are so time poor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as you say quite often you just happen to have these things in the fridge and not you know a full recipe itself. itself. itself. For people who perhaps are trying to keep on top of their blood sugar. So, I, for example, will wear a CGM every so often. I have found it to be one of the most powerful behavioral change tools I've ever seen. I'm not saying it's everything, but I think understanding what foods spike your blood sugar, give you um sort of rapid drops in blood sugar, which foods keep them relatively more stable, I think can be very helpful, certainly for me and many patients in the past.

What would you say to someone who's also trying to look at their blood sugar and think, "Yeah, but some of these foods, Emily, may really send my blood sugar soaring high." high." high." I think this is really like we just need to bring fiber into the conversation when we're talking about carbohydrates because really carbohydrates are things that sugar and really that particularly the type of fiber that's called soluble fiber and effectively it dissolves into um you know, you might not even see it sometimes. It's it's kind of fiber that dissolves into water and liquid.

But some of these types of soluble fibers also make a gel and so they can act a bit like slowing down that sugar release into your bloodstream because they're acting a little bit like a kind of fishing net. They're slowing things down. down. down. Um and so all these foods, if we're talking about things like berries, which naturally contain, you know, more kind of sugar in them, but it's a natural sugar that's encased um within a structure. So, it's going to naturally slow that down. All these things have fiber in them.

So, I think it's not to say that, you know, any of these things are going to necessarily be problematic for your blood sugar control if we're bringing fiber into the conversation with it. I think Emily, you've you've really made the case well for fiber uh both in your book and on the podcast today. just for that person who's thinking about, you know, getting involved now and and increase the amount of fiber in their diet, what are the key things that we need to remember? I would say let's, yes, fiber is powerful, but let's just really remember that we need to start low and go slow.

And I think that also could be very individual to that person. somebody who's maybe got more of a sensitive gut, it may mean that you need to go a little bit more slowly in terms of how quickly you're introducing more fiber into your diet than someone else. If you are currently on a low fiber diet, diet, diet, is going to 30 grams a day too much? Would you say go slower than that? Basically, Basically, Basically, so the whole four-week plan is about taking four weeks to get to 30 grams.

The first week is just making changes to your breakfast. Second week, you then start making changes to your lunch and you keep up those breakfast changes and then we start moving to dinner and then we start moving to snacks. So, it's a small step-wise changes that's giving your gut time to adapt and that's going to make you feel much better in terms of your microbes adapting to the new amount of fiber, but also you're going to notice all these um fantastic changes on the way to your digestion energy levels.

The the other thing I really liked in your plan was that each week you're helping people build awareness through tracking which I think is so so important. It's not just blindly following a plan. It's also like paying attention to how was this impacting me. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, I kind of wanted to bring people on the journey of being a scientist with me. So I kind of say this is your kind of own individual science project where you're the you know participant in your own little study.

Um, and so I kind of have trackers of how, you know, fun ways to kind of fill out and keep an eye on how did you feel on all these different metrics when you started it. You know, how's your poos as well? Like how how often are you going, you know, are they kind of healthy size and shape? Are your energy, your mood, your stress, um, your sleep, all these things that maybe you don't necessarily think are all related, um, but very much are. And then each week you kind of check in and um you know keep track of of how you've been feeling and then you can see you know has there been shifts and what those shifts are across that four weeks.

And I think in particularly for moments where you know we all have them and maybe you're like ah just feeling a bit kind of rubbish today or something you can think well actually overall wow I really have made this amazing change and I can keep it up as well. Yeah, I think building that self-awareness is one of the most important components of change. I I just I just think if you don't do that, you're constantly following other people's plans and recommendations. At some point, it has to change from being someone else's plan to being something that you know helps you and supports your well-being.

And that comes through this kind of tracking of, oh wow, I my my my gut is better. Um I've got more energy. I'm sleeping better. Wow. You know, and that really locks it in. So, you're more likely then to continue. Whereas, if you're blind to that, it's like, oh, I tried that. I don't know. I'll just go back to the way I was eating before. So, I think that's really, really important, Emily. Um, gut health is always a popular topic with uh my audience and we let people know that you were coming back on the show and there's quite a few questions that have come in.

So, is it okay if I put a few of these questions to you and and get your sort of take on them? Okay. Sarah has asked Emily, what is the impact of menopause on our gut biome and what can women do to optimize this? So we see that the gut microbiome can change and shift. You know, if you think about this as a a kind of living ecosystem in our gut, what we tend to see in that between the difference between boys and girls when they hit puberty, women's microbiome or girls kind of newly pubescent microbiome will kind of shift and change.

And we think this is all relation between estrogen, that sex hormone uh and also the microbes having this kind of interaction back and forth. When we go through menopause, of course, we then start having these kind of fluctuating levels and fluctuating decline of estrogen. And we think then that this is one of the reasons why we see a shift in the gut microbiome and it starts to become a little bit more similar to a man's microbiome um in terms of like what microbes are around. So, how might that might play in terms of how you feel dayto-day?

We're still not really sure. I think one of the most frustrating things about um kind of women's research is particularly the kind of lack of funding and lack of evidence that we have in menopausal research. Um and particularly with kind of actionable strategies that we can take to manage symptoms. symptoms. symptoms. What might happen is that because there is this shift in the microbes, it could be a kind of key opportunity to think, okay, well, how can I just be more in tune with my gut?

I think a lot of people say that they notice they have changes to their digestion. They might think their kind of bowel movements shift. There's kind of things happening where they feel that their body is is different from what it was before. So, can we then use that as a way to be like, okay, well, can I then pay more attention to my gut health? Maybe, you know, start putting some of these kind of dietary strategies in place because we do see that from some evidence.

Again, these are patterns in studies. So we don't know that they're kind of causal or not. Um but people who tend to have um a kind of higher fiber, more plant-rich kind of healthy dietary pattern tend to experience less menopausal symptoms. But again that is something that we just still need to tease out and understand a lot more. And I really hope um that we get some more research in this space because it's you know shocking the lack of funding that it gets. Gemma has asked, "Emily, how can I test my gut health, especially if I don't have the funds for very expensive tests?" tests?" tests?" So, I always say, can we just look in the toilet every day whenever you go?

Um, this is really giving you a clear sign of the health of your gut. Um, and when I talk about the health of your gut, it's not just about your gut microbiome. I'm talking about the entire kind of system going from your mouth all the way down to your bum. So, what are you really looking for? You're keeping out for the fact that it's a smooth sausage or a sausage with cracks in it. It's a brown color. Um, you're going to the L very easily. Everything's coming out.

Uh, and also that you're going between a frequency of three times a day to three times a week. I know that gut microbiome testing is all the rage at the moment, but we actually had a consensus review by 69 experts in the microbiome space and they effectively put together um a number of statements that they kind of agreed on. And what they said was that that the microbiome testing is really not there yet in terms of the science to give any specific actionable advice in when it's from a a company directly to to the customer.

So where does that kind of land? If you are wanting and you've got the money to and you just want to know who's there, then great. But don't feel like it's something you have to do that you think it's an essential thing to understand about your gut health to do a gut health test. test. test. If you're having issues with your gut health, it's much cheaper to just go and and see a clinician who's going to help to help you directly with your diet if you are experiencing problems.

Yeah. Charlotte has asked, "What causes people to become intolerant to garlic, gluten, or onions when they've previously eaten it all their lives and not had any issues?" That tends to be something that we see with um irritable bowel syndrome um in terms of those key foods containing something called FODMAPs. Um, and these are kind of fermentable uh kind of carbohydrates and sugars that some of them of which are types of of fiber that for some people um can cause them some issues and that might as as this person said happen when they they haven't had any issues before.

Um, for example, that could be that someone's picked up a bug on holiday, had a dodgy stomach. You can then suddenly get IBS. Why does that happen? We don't actually really know um why exactly we're happening. We think the microbiome is one key component in for example IBS um and why if you've then had uh food poisoning um dodgy stomach abroad that's then disrupted your gut microbiome it hasn't been able to kind of make it back and then it's just meant that you're more sensitive. So, it's not necessarily those foods are harming you, but it could be then that you've got more kind of sensitive signals from nerve endings kind of sending pain signals back back and forth that you're getting more bloating because you're getting more gas produced from certain types of microbes.

Um, there's a still a lot of kind of and again this gut brain connection as well. Paola has asked you to comment on the sauerkrauts and kimchi that are sold in supermarkets. supermarkets. supermarkets. He or she is saying it would appear that most brands pasteurize their products and as such aren't the beneficial probiotics eradicated by pasteurizing. A lot of these products um are pasteurized because it makes them more shelf stable. They're less likely to explode. They're easier to transport from location to location. So we do see from some of the studies that um particularly looking at things like keir for example that making keir at home you're going to have a whole kind of wider range of microbes than perhaps um you know handful of number of strains that are kind of put in a bottle.

There's no official kind of requirements uh and you know then put the label on. Um, but I would say that I having previously, you know, spent a lot of my life making fermented foods, I tend to to buy them because I I just think you've got to really recognize how much time and effort you've got at hand. And you're still getting some microbes. And I think also we have microbes all around us. It's not just in these fermented foods. They're on every surface that we, you know, we talked about this I think last time.

You know, we're interacting with microbes. We have a microbial cloud all around us. So we are getting microbes from many different sources as well. well. well. Emily, you're such a wealth of information on all things gut health and nutrition. We've of course spent a lot of time today covering fiber and its impact on various aspects of our health. But of course you write a Substack where you cover all kinds of things relating to all kinds of things, right? You god was it was it last week you were talking about the impact that nurseries have on our gut health.

You're talking about the impact that certain medications have on our microbiome and how that impact can last for several years for people who want to go deeper with you. What kind of things are they going to get if they go to your substack? substack? substack? Oh, absolutely. So, I write every week and I'm very big on breaking down not only the latest science. So if I, you know, get very excited that there's a study that just came out last week or a few days ago, then I'll break down what that evidence says, especially with a microbiome, it's so fast-paced.

So yeah, keeping on top of the latest microbiome scientists, but I also do, you know, my background as a dietician and, you know, also kind of research and nutrition, you know, I very much tackle those key nutrition topics as well. Um, so I think a recent one was, you know, is the advice on saw type data and actually understanding, you know, that kind of key advice behind that. Um, and lots of other kind of different kind of nutrition and things for your health that's hopefully very, you know, excuse the pun, easily digestible.

Um, but yes, every week and and it's something I yeah, I really enjoy sharing with people. people. people. Yeah, brilliant. Of course, the new book is called Fiber Power: Transform Your Energy and Feel Amazing. It's out now. So for people who are interested, check it out. All those delicious recipes that you're talking about are in there. To finish off, Emily, for that person who's listening who listening who listening who has really not taken care of their health for, you know, a variety of different reasons and they've recognized today through this conversation that actually, you know what, it's time to change things.

It's time to put themselves first. and they decided to make increasing fiber the first step on their health journey. What are your final words to them? I would say welcome. You're in the fiber family now. Um, and you know, this is something that I want you to have fun with and to enjoy and and find delicious and understand that it's not about having to have the most perfect quote unquote diet, but making small practical changes for your health that um make you feel better here and now, but also support your health in the long run.

And that's really the key things that matter. matter. matter. Yeah, Emily, fantastically empowering message. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. Thank you so much for having me. If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one that I picked out especially. We need to realize whatever we put into our body is either going to take our health down or build our health back up. And it all works at the level of the defense systems.