Grief Expert: The 6 Stages of Grief | David Kessler

If you grieve well, you live well. If you grieve well, you live well. >> Grief is [music] about change. Those of >> Grief is [music] about change. Those of >> Grief is [music] about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually us who can manage change well actually us who can manage change well actually are happier in life. are happier in life. are happier in life. >> If you get stuck in the breakup, [music] >> If you get stuck in the breakup, [music] >> If you get stuck in the breakup, [music] the job loss, whatever it is, you're not the job loss, whatever it is, you're not the job loss, whatever it is, you're not going to do well. going to do well. going to do well. >> He's one of the world's foremost grief >> He's one of the world's foremost grief >> He's one of the world's foremost grief experts and bestselling author who has experts and bestselling author who has experts and bestselling author who has helped millions of people learn how to helped millions of people learn how to helped millions of people learn how to heal after loss. Please welcome David heal after loss. Please welcome David heal after loss. Please welcome David Kesler. [music] Kesler. [music] Kesler. [music] >> Grief must be witnessed. >> Grief must be witnessed. >> Grief must be witnessed. >> What does that mean? It means if you are >> What does that mean? It means if you are >> What does that mean? It means if you are in grief, you need another person to go, in grief, you need another person to go, in grief, you need another person to go, "That job [music] meant a lot. I'm so "That job [music] meant a lot. I'm so "That job [music] meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you." Why does sorry that happened to you." Why does sorry that happened to you." Why does that need to happen? that need to happen? that need to happen? >> Because we need to have our pain [music] >> Because we need to have our pain [music] >> Because we need to have our pain [music] and our love and our attachment and our love and our attachment and our love and our attachment witnessed in someone else's eyes. A lot witnessed in someone else's eyes. A lot witnessed in someone else's eyes. A lot of people have [music] heard about the of people have [music] heard about the of people have [music] heard about the five stages of grief. You've added a five stages of grief. You've added a five stages of grief. You've added a sixth stage of grief. Can [music] you sixth stage of grief. Can [music] you sixth stage of grief. Can [music] you briefly share what these six stages of briefly share what these six stages of briefly share what these six stages of grief is? Sure. So >> a lot of people have heard about the >> a lot of people have heard about the five stages of grief if they've gone five stages of grief if they've gone five stages of grief if they've gone through something and they've studied through something and they've studied through something and they've studied this. You've added a sixth stage of this. You've added a sixth stage of this. You've added a sixth stage of grief. Can you briefly share what these grief. Can you briefly share what these grief. Can you briefly share what these six stages of grief is? six stages of grief is? six stages of grief is? >> Sure. So Elizabeth Kubler Ross who did >> Sure. So Elizabeth Kubler Ross who did >> Sure. So Elizabeth Kubler Ross who did hospice and grief and loss, she's the hospice and grief and loss, she's the hospice and grief and loss, she's the one who came up with them. And what was one who came up with them. And what was one who came up with them. And what was amazing that she did is she didn't amazing that she did is she didn't amazing that she did is she didn't invent something. She observes something invent something. She observes something invent something. She observes something in people. And she was like, you know, in people. And she was like, you know, in people. And she was like, you know, the sun always comes up in the east, it the sun always comes up in the east, it the sun always comes up in the east, it sets in the west. People seem to go sets in the west. People seem to go sets in the west. People seem to go through this. Denial. I can't believe through this. Denial. I can't believe through this. Denial. I can't believe this is happening. Anger, pissed about this is happening. Anger, pissed about this is happening. Anger, pissed about this. Bargaining. If only I had done this. Bargaining. If only I had done this. Bargaining. If only I had done that. If only we had tried this. that. If only we had tried this. that. If only we had tried this. then depression, the sadness then depression, the sadness then depression, the sadness and acceptance. And people thought like and acceptance. And people thought like and acceptance. And people thought like there's one big acceptance, there's a there's one big acceptance, there's a there's one big acceptance, there's a million acceptances that we're always million acceptances that we're always million acceptances that we're always going through. So those are the stages. going through. So those are the stages. going through. So those are the stages. And what's remarkable is they work when And what's remarkable is they work when And what's remarkable is they work when someone dies, but they work in a someone dies, but they work in a someone dies, but they work in a breakup, divorce, job loss, big changes. breakup, divorce, job loss, big changes. breakup, divorce, job loss, big changes. In fact, I always define grief as a In fact, I always define grief as a In fact, I always define grief as a change we didn't want. change we didn't want. change we didn't want. >> It's interesting, you know, sometimes >> It's interesting, you know, sometimes >> It's interesting, you know, sometimes I'll be talking to someone and they know I'll be talking to someone and they know I'll be talking to someone and they know like I maybe have uh did a lecture at like I maybe have uh did a lecture at like I maybe have uh did a lecture at Coca-Cola or General Mills or Dow Jones Coca-Cola or General Mills or Dow Jones Coca-Cola or General Mills or Dow Jones and they're like, "Why are you lecturing and they're like, "Why are you lecturing and they're like, "Why are you lecturing to grief with them? Do they have a lot to grief with them? Do they have a lot to grief with them? Do they have a lot of grief?" And I'm like, "No, companies of grief?" And I'm like, "No, companies of grief?" And I'm like, "No, companies want to learn how to manage change. want to learn how to manage change. want to learn how to manage change. Grief is about change. Those of us who Grief is about change. Those of us who Grief is about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually are can manage change well actually are can manage change well actually are happier in life. happier in life. happier in life. >> So I always want people to know if you >> So I always want people to know if you >> So I always want people to know if you grieve well you live well. grieve well you live well. grieve well you live well. >> If you get stuck in the breakup, the job >> If you get stuck in the breakup, the job >> If you get stuck in the breakup, the job loss, whatever it is, you're not going loss, whatever it is, you're not going loss, whatever it is, you're not going to do well. So I was really honored to to do well. So I was really honored to to do well. So I was really honored to work with Kubler Ros. she taught me and work with Kubler Ros. she taught me and work with Kubler Ros. she taught me and I was able to do a couple of books with I was able to do a couple of books with I was able to do a couple of books with her and adapt her stages of dying to her and adapt her stages of dying to her and adapt her stages of dying to stages of grief formally with her. stages of grief formally with her. stages of grief formally with her. And about uh nine years ago, I thought And about uh nine years ago, I thought And about uh nine years ago, I thought my grief was long behind me and my my grief was long behind me and my my grief was long behind me and my younger son David died unexpectedly. younger son David died unexpectedly. younger son David died unexpectedly. And And And as brutal as you would imagine, I was on as brutal as you would imagine, I was on as brutal as you would imagine, I was on the floor. the floor. the floor. And I remember back then that at some And I remember back then that at some And I remember back then that at some point I thought, I have to find a way point I thought, I have to find a way point I thought, I have to find a way through this. What do I do for other through this. What do I do for other through this. What do I do for other people? people? people? >> Now, you're the grief expert. You've >> Now, you're the grief expert. You've >> Now, you're the grief expert. You've written books about it. written books about it. written books about it. >> Helped a million ber parents. >> Helped a million ber parents. >> Helped a million ber parents. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And now I'm in it. >> And now I'm in it. >> And now I'm in it. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> In the epicenter. >> In the epicenter. >> In the epicenter. Now, how how long were you in it? Were Now, how how long were you in it? Were Now, how how long were you in it? Were you and did you beat yourself up for you and did you beat yourself up for you and did you beat yourself up for being like, "I'm the expert. Why am I being like, "I'm the expert. Why am I being like, "I'm the expert. Why am I still feeling anger, sadness when I know still feeling anger, sadness when I know still feeling anger, sadness when I know these steps? I've taught this for years these steps? I've taught this for years these steps? I've taught this for years and yet I'm still in this." and yet I'm still in this." and yet I'm still in this." >> There was an observer in me. >> There was an observer in me. >> There was an observer in me. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> And there were moments that were really >> And there were moments that were really >> And there were moments that were really those two got separated. Like I used to those two got separated. Like I used to those two got separated. Like I used to tell people, "Go see a counselor. Go to tell people, "Go see a counselor. Go to tell people, "Go see a counselor. Go to a grief group." I handed that out like a grief group." I handed that out like a grief group." I handed that out like candy at Halloween. candy at Halloween. candy at Halloween. >> Yeah. When I had to go to a grief group, >> Yeah. When I had to go to a grief group, >> Yeah. When I had to go to a grief group, took me three times. I was like, there's took me three times. I was like, there's took me three times. I was like, there's traffic. There's always traffic in LA. I traffic. There's always traffic in LA. I traffic. There's always traffic in LA. I can't find a parking place. Finally, the can't find a parking place. Finally, the can't find a parking place. Finally, the third time I went into this grief group third time I went into this grief group third time I went into this grief group and I was like, grief group. I shouldn't and I was like, grief group. I shouldn't and I was like, grief group. I shouldn't be here. And which is a feeling we have be here. And which is a feeling we have be here. And which is a feeling we have in grief. This shouldn't be happening to in grief. This shouldn't be happening to in grief. This shouldn't be happening to me. And literally I had to sit down in a me. And literally I had to sit down in a me. And literally I had to sit down in a chair with these other parents with a chair with these other parents with a chair with these other parents with a table of books and my books were on that table of books and my books were on that table of books and my books were on that table. table. table. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I couldn't say, "Oh, that's me. I'm >> And I couldn't say, "Oh, that's me. I'm >> And I couldn't say, "Oh, that's me. I'm that author." I had to be the father that author." I had to be the father that author." I had to be the father that buried a child. that buried a child. that buried a child. >> So >> So >> So brutal, brutal, brutal. And I eventually brutal, brutal, brutal. And I eventually brutal, brutal, brutal. And I eventually would notice, yep, you're in denial. would notice, yep, you're in denial. would notice, yep, you're in denial. Yep, you're try. And then I thought, I Yep, you're try. And then I thought, I Yep, you're try. And then I thought, I got to accept this someday. And that got to accept this someday. And that got to accept this someday. And that wasn't enough. I'm like, it can't end wasn't enough. I'm like, it can't end wasn't enough. I'm like, it can't end with acceptance. with acceptance. with acceptance. I need more because if you just accept I need more because if you just accept I need more because if you just accept something, then what? something, then what? something, then what? >> Well, it felt it felt like a low >> Well, it felt it felt like a low >> Well, it felt it felt like a low baseline. All right, I accepted it. baseline. All right, I accepted it. baseline. All right, I accepted it. >> Yeah. Life sucks. I accept it. >> Yeah. Life sucks. I accept it. >> Yeah. Life sucks. I accept it. >> Life sucks. This happened. >> Life sucks. This happened. >> Life sucks. This happened. >> My life sucks. And you know, there were >> My life sucks. And you know, there were >> My life sucks. And you know, there were a lot of people who were like, "This a lot of people who were like, "This a lot of people who were like, "This shouldn't have happened to you." And shouldn't have happened to you." And shouldn't have happened to you." And it's like, why? Well, why not me? Like, it's like, why? Well, why not me? Like, it's like, why? Well, why not me? Like, I'm not exempt from human life. And so, I'm not exempt from human life. And so, I'm not exempt from human life. And so, it was really I looked at this and I was it was really I looked at this and I was it was really I looked at this and I was like, like, like, I know I've been teaching for years. No I know I've been teaching for years. No I know I've been teaching for years. No matter what you've been through, you can matter what you've been through, you can matter what you've been through, you can find joy and happiness again. Even find joy and happiness again. Even find joy and happiness again. Even though I couldn't see it when I was in though I couldn't see it when I was in though I couldn't see it when I was in it, people would remind me. it, people would remind me. it, people would remind me. And I eventually thought about I want to And I eventually thought about I want to And I eventually thought about I want to there has to be more. Could it be there has to be more. Could it be there has to be more. Could it be meaning? And I went back and read Victor meaning? And I went back and read Victor meaning? And I went back and read Victor Frankle's book, A Man's Search for Frankle's book, A Man's Search for Frankle's book, A Man's Search for Meaning. And meaning didn't always jive Meaning. And meaning didn't always jive Meaning. And meaning didn't always jive with people in grief. Because it would with people in grief. Because it would with people in grief. Because it would be like there's no meaning in a horrible be like there's no meaning in a horrible be like there's no meaning in a horrible death. There's no meaning in a murder. death. There's no meaning in a murder. death. There's no meaning in a murder. There's no meaning in the And I realized There's no meaning in the And I realized There's no meaning in the And I realized and the work became to understand the and the work became to understand the and the work became to understand the meaning is not in the horrible event. meaning is not in the horrible event. meaning is not in the horrible event. The meaning is in us. The meaning is in us. The meaning is in us. >> Who do we become after the horrible >> Who do we become after the horrible >> Who do we become after the horrible event? event? event? And I also thought back to my son David And I also thought back to my son David And I also thought back to my son David who loved my work who loved my work who loved my work >> and he would not have wanted >> and he would not have wanted >> and he would not have wanted his death to constrict it his death to constrict it his death to constrict it >> and I thought then I have to expand it. >> and I thought then I have to expand it. >> and I thought then I have to expand it. >> Wow. If you could go back and think >> Wow. If you could go back and think >> Wow. If you could go back and think about who were you before his death and about who were you before his death and about who were you before his death and who are you now after his death? What is who are you now after his death? What is who are you now after his death? What is the meaning you've given that in your the meaning you've given that in your the meaning you've given that in your life? life? life? >> I appreciate it even more life. >> I appreciate it even more life. >> I appreciate it even more life. I get this I get this I get this how temporary this is even more how we how temporary this is even more how we how temporary this is even more how we don't live and how how we don't know don't live and how how we don't know don't live and how how we don't know who's going to live and who's going to who's going to live and who's going to who's going to live and who's going to die. What's going to happen? You know, die. What's going to happen? You know, die. What's going to happen? You know, we've talked about control. I had to we've talked about control. I had to we've talked about control. I had to manage a new layer of digging out some manage a new layer of digging out some manage a new layer of digging out some control. control. control. to realize, oh, I have no control. I to realize, oh, I have no control. I to realize, oh, I have no control. I have illusions of control, but I have no have illusions of control, but I have no have illusions of control, but I have no control. control. control. No control. And what do I have control No control. And what do I have control No control. And what do I have control over? Oh, how I experience this moment. over? Oh, how I experience this moment. over? Oh, how I experience this moment. How I experience today, what I say yes How I experience today, what I say yes How I experience today, what I say yes to, what I say no to. Then it all to, what I say no to. Then it all to, what I say no to. Then it all shifts. Then I have real power to make shifts. Then I have real power to make shifts. Then I have real power to make the most of my life. Mhm. the most of my life. Mhm. the most of my life. Mhm. >> And I try to be like evidence for people >> And I try to be like evidence for people >> And I try to be like evidence for people when, you know, I hear the horrific when, you know, I hear the horrific when, you know, I hear the horrific things they've gone through. I get it things they've gone through. I get it things they've gone through. I get it and I have hope for you. and I have hope for you. and I have hope for you. >> And they'll go, I don't. And I go, >> And they'll go, I don't. And I go, >> And they'll go, I don't. And I go, "That's all right. I'll hold until you "That's all right. I'll hold until you "That's all right. I'll hold until you can find it." can find it." can find it." >> Wow. How long did it take for you to >> Wow. How long did it take for you to >> Wow. How long did it take for you to find hope? find hope? find hope? >> I had a moment like at Christmas. I was >> I had a moment like at Christmas. I was >> I had a moment like at Christmas. I was with my older son at my son's grave and with my older son at my son's grave and with my older son at my son's grave and he said, First Christmas after. he said, First Christmas after. he said, First Christmas after. >> First Christmas after. And he said to >> First Christmas after. And he said to >> First Christmas after. And he said to me, me, me, "We are never doing the holidays again." "We are never doing the holidays again." "We are never doing the holidays again." >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> And I had to go, >> And I had to go, >> And I had to go, I feel that way, too. I feel that way, too. I feel that way, too. But I said, you're still alive and I'm But I said, you're still alive and I'm But I said, you're still alive and I'm still alive and this Christmas is not still alive and this Christmas is not still alive and this Christmas is not happening. Next Christmas might not happening. Next Christmas might not happening. Next Christmas might not happen. Next Hanukkah, all those might happen. Next Hanukkah, all those might happen. Next Hanukkah, all those might not happen. But I said, you know, I not happen. But I said, you know, I not happen. But I said, you know, I would hate to think you and I don't get would hate to think you and I don't get would hate to think you and I don't get any more holidays together. any more holidays together. any more holidays together. >> So I said, we're going to have to work >> So I said, we're going to have to work >> So I said, we're going to have to work on this. on this. on this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. What was the step that you were What was the step that you were What was the step that you were in the most? Was it anger, bargaining, in the most? Was it anger, bargaining, in the most? Was it anger, bargaining, depression, denial? Like depression, denial? Like depression, denial? Like >> a lot of bargaining, >> a lot of bargaining, >> a lot of bargaining, a lot of I could have done this a lot of I could have done this a lot of I could have done this differently. differently. differently. >> What ifs and ifies? >> What ifs and ifies? >> What ifs and ifies? >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yeah. What does that do to someone when >> Yeah. What does that do to someone when >> Yeah. What does that do to someone when they're going through a grief? It they're going through a grief? It they're going through a grief? It doesn't have to be a loss of a a doesn't have to be a loss of a a doesn't have to be a loss of a a personal life. personal life. personal life. >> It could be a divorce. It could be a it >> It could be a divorce. It could be a it >> It could be a divorce. It could be a it could be a job loss. could be a job loss. could be a job loss. >> What is bargaining do? Saying, "Oh, if I >> What is bargaining do? Saying, "Oh, if I >> What is bargaining do? Saying, "Oh, if I just would have not gone here that day a just would have not gone here that day a just would have not gone here that day a year ago, if I would have done this year ago, if I would have done this year ago, if I would have done this decision differently or if I would have decision differently or if I would have decision differently or if I would have whatever, what does bargaining do to whatever, what does bargaining do to whatever, what does bargaining do to someone when they ruminate on it someone when they ruminate on it someone when they ruminate on it consistently after loss?" consistently after loss?" consistently after loss?" >> It is the mind's way. And I want to just >> It is the mind's way. And I want to just >> It is the mind's way. And I want to just put a caveat on this. We have to do that put a caveat on this. We have to do that put a caveat on this. We have to do that early on. We're going to bargain. It's early on. We're going to bargain. It's early on. We're going to bargain. It's okay. Allow yourself to bargain. okay. Allow yourself to bargain. okay. Allow yourself to bargain. >> But eventually, it is the mind's way of >> But eventually, it is the mind's way of >> But eventually, it is the mind's way of avoiding reality. avoiding reality. avoiding reality. >> It is >> It is >> It is the mind would always be guilty than the mind would always be guilty than the mind would always be guilty than helpless. helpless. helpless. I'd rather have a Rubik's cube going, I'd rather have a Rubik's cube going, I'd rather have a Rubik's cube going, "They shouldn't have fired me. I "They shouldn't have fired me. I "They shouldn't have fired me. I shouldn't have been let go." Duh duh shouldn't have been let go." Duh duh shouldn't have been let go." Duh duh duh. than to sit with those feelings and duh. than to sit with those feelings and duh. than to sit with those feelings and get my resume together and get back out get my resume together and get back out get my resume together and get back out there. there. there. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> This my mind doesn't want to live in a >> This my mind doesn't want to live in a >> This my mind doesn't want to live in a world that wait a minute, I can be for world that wait a minute, I can be for world that wait a minute, I can be for years at a company and be fired. Wait a years at a company and be fired. Wait a years at a company and be fired. Wait a minute, we can be happy and then you minute, we can be happy and then you minute, we can be happy and then you want a divorce. Wait, wait, everything's want a divorce. Wait, wait, everything's want a divorce. Wait, wait, everything's good and then someone dies. Who wants to good and then someone dies. Who wants to good and then someone dies. Who wants to live in that world? None of us. But our live in that world? None of us. But our live in that world? None of us. But our minds trying to regulate our nervous minds trying to regulate our nervous minds trying to regulate our nervous system. Mhm. So you were in the system. Mhm. So you were in the system. Mhm. So you were in the bargaining phase a lot. bargaining phase a lot. bargaining phase a lot. >> I still go back and visit from time to >> I still go back and visit from time to >> I still go back and visit from time to time. time. time. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When did you feel like you got to >> Yeah. When did you feel like you got to >> Yeah. When did you feel like you got to a place of of meaning? a place of of meaning? a place of of meaning? >> Began to do the dance when I was working >> Began to do the dance when I was working >> Began to do the dance when I was working on the book and the Kubler Ross family on the book and the Kubler Ross family on the book and the Kubler Ross family were saying we'll allow you to call it were saying we'll allow you to call it were saying we'll allow you to call it the six stage. the six stage. the six stage. probably around two years I was getting probably around two years I was getting probably around two years I was getting glimpses of I'm going back to life glimpses of I'm going back to life glimpses of I'm going back to life >> really >> really >> really >> slowly slowly >> slowly slowly >> slowly slowly >> how does someone >> how does someone >> how does someone find the meaning in loss find the meaning in loss find the meaning in loss >> well to realize it's not in it it's in >> well to realize it's not in it it's in >> well to realize it's not in it it's in us after the loss us after the loss us after the loss >> what does that mean >> what does that mean >> what does that mean >> and it means things like what is there >> and it means things like what is there >> and it means things like what is there to find after the loss it could be to find after the loss it could be to find after the loss it could be you realize the brevity of life like you realize the brevity of life like you realize the brevity of life like this isn't forever. Let me make the most this isn't forever. Let me make the most this isn't forever. Let me make the most of this. It could be I want to make sure of this. It could be I want to make sure of this. It could be I want to make sure no one dies that way. I want to create no one dies that way. I want to create no one dies that way. I want to create change. change. change. >> It could be I need to find some >> It could be I need to find some >> It could be I need to find some gratitude for this. gratitude for this. gratitude for this. It could, you know, it's a million It could, you know, it's a million It could, you know, it's a million things that we can personalize to the things that we can personalize to the things that we can personalize to the lost. Like one of the things I remember lost. Like one of the things I remember lost. Like one of the things I remember and a lot of people have said this and a lot of people have said this and a lot of people have said this experience that like experience that like experience that like my gosh, my son's funeral was packed. He my gosh, my son's funeral was packed. He my gosh, my son's funeral was packed. He did not know how loved he was. did not know how loved he was. did not know how loved he was. Let me try to take that in now. Let me try to take that in now. Let me try to take that in now. >> Let me help other people feel loved now. >> Let me help other people feel loved now. >> Let me help other people feel loved now. I don't want to express my love for my I don't want to express my love for my I don't want to express my love for my friends at their funeral. I want them to friends at their funeral. I want them to friends at their funeral. I want them to know today. Things like that change us. know today. Things like that change us. know today. Things like that change us. >> Why do you think it's so hard for people >> Why do you think it's so hard for people >> Why do you think it's so hard for people to express how they feel about their to express how they feel about their to express how they feel about their friends, family, and loved ones when friends, family, and loved ones when friends, family, and loved ones when they're alive rather than when they they're alive rather than when they they're alive rather than when they pass? pass? pass? >> Here's the thing. We can't order >> Here's the thing. We can't order >> Here's the thing. We can't order feelings. We can't go, "All right, I feelings. We can't go, "All right, I feelings. We can't go, "All right, I want to take love in, but I'm going to want to take love in, but I'm going to want to take love in, but I'm going to suppress all these feelings." You're suppress all these feelings." You're suppress all these feelings." You're either a yes or a no to your feelings. either a yes or a no to your feelings. either a yes or a no to your feelings. You don't get to order them like you're You don't get to order them like you're You don't get to order them like you're at the restaurant. So, if we want love, at the restaurant. So, if we want love, at the restaurant. So, if we want love, we're going to have to allow everything we're going to have to allow everything we're going to have to allow everything else in. M else in. M else in. M >> I'll give you a quick one on this that >> I'll give you a quick one on this that >> I'll give you a quick one on this that when I was before all my most of my work when I was before all my most of my work when I was before all my most of my work was online I was going from hotel was online I was going from hotel was online I was going from hotel meeting room to hotel meeting room meeting room to hotel meeting room meeting room to hotel meeting room >> there'd be you know two 300 people in my >> there'd be you know two 300 people in my >> there'd be you know two 300 people in my room next door would be the realtors room next door would be the realtors room next door would be the realtors down the hall would be the nurses down the hall would be the nurses down the hall would be the nurses after we were done after doing a day the after we were done after doing a day the after we were done after doing a day the staff would go hey what were you staff would go hey what were you staff would go hey what were you teaching and I go why do you ask and teaching and I go why do you ask and teaching and I go why do you ask and they'd go your group was laughing the they'd go your group was laughing the they'd go your group was laughing the post and I would go grief and they would post and I would go grief and they would post and I would go grief and they would go what kind of grief and I go yeah that go what kind of grief and I go yeah that go what kind of grief and I go yeah that kind of grief what it's hard for people kind of grief what it's hard for people kind of grief what it's hard for people to understand the people in my room to understand the people in my room to understand the people in my room cried harder but laughed harder cried harder but laughed harder cried harder but laughed harder >> grief and feelings and allowing the >> grief and feelings and allowing the >> grief and feelings and allowing the range all the colors of our feelings range all the colors of our feelings range all the colors of our feelings expands our life expands our life expands our life exp like I didn't think I'd be here exp like I didn't think I'd be here exp like I didn't think I'd be here talking to you about oh like loving talking to you about oh like loving talking to you about oh like loving people more and compelling them, but it people more and compelling them, but it people more and compelling them, but it expands expands expands and it's a fuller life. and it's a fuller life. and it's a fuller life. >> Mhm. There's something you said like if >> Mhm. There's something you said like if >> Mhm. There's something you said like if you're unwilling to you're unwilling to you're unwilling to experience the grief, then you're experience the grief, then you're experience the grief, then you're unwilling to like fully love deeper. unwilling to like fully love deeper. unwilling to like fully love deeper. >> Absolutely. To, you know, to live life >> Absolutely. To, you know, to live life >> Absolutely. To, you know, to live life fully. You can't do one without the fully. You can't do one without the fully. You can't do one without the other. other. other. >> Can someone fully experience love at the >> Can someone fully experience love at the >> Can someone fully experience love at the greatest levels if they're unwilling to greatest levels if they're unwilling to greatest levels if they're unwilling to go through grief at the deepest level? go through grief at the deepest level? go through grief at the deepest level? Grief and love are a package deal this Grief and love are a package deal this Grief and love are a package deal this lifetime. lifetime. lifetime. You got to take both You got to take both You got to take both >> really. >> really. >> really. >> And if if I play safe, >> And if if I play safe, >> And if if I play safe, it's not as much joy. And plenty of it's not as much joy. And plenty of it's not as much joy. And plenty of people play safe. I've played safe. I'm people play safe. I've played safe. I'm people play safe. I've played safe. I'm sure you we've all played safe. And I sure you we've all played safe. And I sure you we've all played safe. And I don't want to play safe anymore. I mean, don't want to play safe anymore. I mean, don't want to play safe anymore. I mean, to me, playing safe is the scariest to me, playing safe is the scariest to me, playing safe is the scariest thing I could do. M thing I could do. M thing I could do. M >> what a waste of life >> what a waste of life >> what a waste of life you know my gosh we always want to like you know my gosh we always want to like you know my gosh we always want to like play your full game don't leave anything play your full game don't leave anything play your full game don't leave anything behind behind behind and I think you know being because I and I think you know being because I and I think you know being because I also work with people who are dying and also work with people who are dying and also work with people who are dying and being at end of life I mean people have being at end of life I mean people have being at end of life I mean people have lots of regrets lots of regrets lots of regrets >> around not living fully and how scared >> around not living fully and how scared >> around not living fully and how scared they were they were they were >> really >> really >> really >> and it becomes an illusion you know we >> and it becomes an illusion you know we >> and it becomes an illusion you know we don't regret the things we did. Often we don't regret the things we did. Often we don't regret the things we did. Often we regret the things we didn't do. regret the things we didn't do. regret the things we didn't do. >> Is there anything you regret right now? >> Is there anything you regret right now? >> Is there anything you regret right now? >> Not in the moment. >> Not in the moment. >> Not in the moment. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Not in the moment. >> Not in the moment. >> Not in the moment. >> Or in the last, I guess, 10 years. >> Or in the last, I guess, 10 years. >> Or in the last, I guess, 10 years. >> Do you feel like it's not forced you, >> Do you feel like it's not forced you, >> Do you feel like it's not forced you, but allowed you to say, I'm going to but allowed you to say, I'm going to but allowed you to say, I'm going to really risk and go for it, whatever it really risk and go for it, whatever it really risk and go for it, whatever it is, saying what I want to say. is, saying what I want to say. is, saying what I want to say. >> Constant process. >> Constant process. >> Constant process. >> It is constant to play the bigger move. >> It is constant to play the bigger move. >> It is constant to play the bigger move. M M M >> that's hard to play the bigger move >> that's hard to play the bigger move >> that's hard to play the bigger move constantly. constantly. constantly. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But it's it's also the powerful move >> But it's it's also the powerful move >> But it's it's also the powerful move >> when someone >> when someone >> when someone has experienced grief and it doesn't has experienced grief and it doesn't has experienced grief and it doesn't have to be a loss of life, have to be a loss of life, have to be a loss of life, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But they've experienced a change that >> But they've experienced a change that >> But they've experienced a change that was unwanted, right? was unwanted, right? was unwanted, right? >> And then they've ruminated on that um >> And then they've ruminated on that um >> And then they've ruminated on that um change happening or been frustrated on change happening or been frustrated on change happening or been frustrated on that change for let's say a year or a that change for let's say a year or a that change for let's say a year or a couple of years. They continue to be couple of years. They continue to be couple of years. They continue to be frustrated about the person, the event, frustrated about the person, the event, frustrated about the person, the event, the experience that happened that they the experience that happened that they the experience that happened that they did not want to happen. did not want to happen. did not want to happen. What are they robbing by doing that in What are they robbing by doing that in What are they robbing by doing that in their relationship to other people by their relationship to other people by their relationship to other people by staying stuck in the grief and not staying stuck in the grief and not staying stuck in the grief and not transforming it? What are they stealing transforming it? What are they stealing transforming it? What are they stealing within relationship to other people? within relationship to other people? within relationship to other people? Grief, whatever that changes we didn't Grief, whatever that changes we didn't Grief, whatever that changes we didn't want, takes us off one road and puts us want, takes us off one road and puts us want, takes us off one road and puts us on another. And many times we'd rather on another. And many times we'd rather on another. And many times we'd rather just stand there quietly on the new road just stand there quietly on the new road just stand there quietly on the new road because the unfamiliar road is too hard because the unfamiliar road is too hard because the unfamiliar road is too hard >> and it does rob us of the possibility of >> and it does rob us of the possibility of >> and it does rob us of the possibility of living again. living again. living again. And it's it becomes that playing small. And it's it becomes that playing small. And it's it becomes that playing small. And uh you know I think about the energy And uh you know I think about the energy And uh you know I think about the energy that's spent. You know people go I'm in that's spent. You know people go I'm in that's spent. You know people go I'm in a void. I have people in my life in my a void. I have people in my life in my a void. I have people in my life in my family. You know one person in my life family. You know one person in my life family. You know one person in my life has turned that frown upside down. You has turned that frown upside down. You has turned that frown upside down. You know like let's not talk about anything know like let's not talk about anything know like let's not talk about anything negative. negative. negative. I see the energy. Like I think of our I see the energy. Like I think of our I see the energy. Like I think of our feelings as like if you've got a little feelings as like if you've got a little feelings as like if you've got a little balloon and you just need to push it balloon and you just need to push it balloon and you just need to push it down, the air comes out slowly. But down, the air comes out slowly. But down, the air comes out slowly. But imagine a big beach ball that you're imagine a big beach ball that you're imagine a big beach ball that you're holding underwater constantly. holding underwater constantly. holding underwater constantly. Like it takes a lot of energy to not Like it takes a lot of energy to not Like it takes a lot of energy to not feel your feelings. And here's the thing feel your feelings. And here's the thing feel your feelings. And here's the thing I tell people. I tell people. I tell people. Feelings aren't facts. Feelings aren't facts. Feelings aren't facts. It's just data. It's just information. It's just data. It's just information. It's just data. It's just information. You have a feeling. You have a feeling. You have a feeling. Let it pass. And I think something folks Let it pass. And I think something folks Let it pass. And I think something folks don't understand about feelings is we're don't understand about feelings is we're don't understand about feelings is we're the first generation that has the luxury the first generation that has the luxury the first generation that has the luxury of a feeling on a feeling. of a feeling on a feeling. of a feeling on a feeling. >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> That means I'm angry. Oh, but I >> That means I'm angry. Oh, but I >> That means I'm angry. Oh, but I shouldn't be angry. Oh, I'm sad. Oh, but shouldn't be angry. Oh, I'm sad. Oh, but shouldn't be angry. Oh, I'm sad. Oh, but I don't have it like people overseas I don't have it like people overseas I don't have it like people overseas have it. And we have all these half-felt have it. And we have all these half-felt have it. And we have all these half-felt feelings that we stopped oursself from feelings that we stopped oursself from feelings that we stopped oursself from feeling the anger, the sadness, and we feeling the anger, the sadness, and we feeling the anger, the sadness, and we live with this bag of unfelt feelings, live with this bag of unfelt feelings, live with this bag of unfelt feelings, >> this like guilt of having the feelings >> this like guilt of having the feelings >> this like guilt of having the feelings cuz someone else has it worse or cuz someone else has it worse or cuz someone else has it worse or >> has it worse. And so >> has it worse. And so >> has it worse. And so >> if we just allow a feeling, it's going >> if we just allow a feeling, it's going >> if we just allow a feeling, it's going to pass. Now, the illusion that feelings to pass. Now, the illusion that feelings to pass. Now, the illusion that feelings have, especially around loss and change have, especially around loss and change have, especially around loss and change and those big things, is when you're in and those big things, is when you're in and those big things, is when you're in a bad feeling, it's like a bad feeling, it's like a bad feeling, it's like there's a voice that goes, "This there's a voice that goes, "This there's a voice that goes, "This feeling's forever." feeling's forever." feeling's forever." >> This loneliness, >> This loneliness, >> This loneliness, >> this pain, >> this pain, >> this pain, >> gosh, I know that >> gosh, I know that >> gosh, I know that >> it's forever. >> it's forever. >> it's forever. >> Yeah, I felt that especially in like my >> Yeah, I felt that especially in like my >> Yeah, I felt that especially in like my teens and 20s. teens and 20s. teens and 20s. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> I felt like forever. >> I felt like forever. >> I felt like forever. >> This is never going away. >> This is never going away. >> This is never going away. >> I felt that like in my childhood. I am >> I felt that like in my childhood. I am >> I felt that like in my childhood. I am damaged forever. damaged forever. damaged forever. >> Yeah. and to understand no feeling is >> Yeah. and to understand no feeling is >> Yeah. and to understand no feeling is final. final. final. >> No feeling is forever. Your feelings are >> No feeling is forever. Your feelings are >> No feeling is forever. Your feelings are always going to change. always going to change. always going to change. >> And sometimes what we need is a little >> And sometimes what we need is a little >> And sometimes what we need is a little nudge to move again. That's why I love nudge to move again. That's why I love nudge to move again. That's why I love doing grief groups online. doing grief groups online. doing grief groups online. We find ourselves in each other's We find ourselves in each other's We find ourselves in each other's stories, stories, stories, >> you know. And I think the other thing is >> you know. And I think the other thing is >> you know. And I think the other thing is so many people so many people so many people um are all about these days and you know um are all about these days and you know um are all about these days and you know one of my lines that I tell people it's one of my lines that I tell people it's one of my lines that I tell people it's so you know connected to me is grief so you know connected to me is grief so you know connected to me is grief must be witnessed. must be witnessed. must be witnessed. >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> It means if you're in grief you need >> It means if you're in grief you need >> It means if you're in grief you need another person to go that job meant a another person to go that job meant a another person to go that job meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you. lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you. lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you. >> Why does that need to happen? Because we >> Why does that need to happen? Because we >> Why does that need to happen? Because we need to have our pain and our love and need to have our pain and our love and need to have our pain and our love and our attachment witnessed in someone our attachment witnessed in someone our attachment witnessed in someone else's eyes. else's eyes. else's eyes. Grief is a severance. It is a separation Grief is a severance. It is a separation Grief is a severance. It is a separation and connection heals it. Like everything and connection heals it. Like everything and connection heals it. Like everything we know, we know, we know, >> what helps grief and trauma is >> what helps grief and trauma is >> what helps grief and trauma is connection. connection. connection. So part one is I say to people, that's So part one is I say to people, that's So part one is I say to people, that's horrible. I see the pain. You love that horrible. I see the pain. You love that horrible. I see the pain. You love that job. You you loved your wife. It's so job. You you loved your wife. It's so job. You you loved your wife. It's so unfair. That's so it shouldn't have unfair. That's so it shouldn't have unfair. That's so it shouldn't have betrayed you. What? You know, I need to betrayed you. What? You know, I need to betrayed you. What? You know, I need to witness folks. witness folks. witness folks. We're a little bit getting really good We're a little bit getting really good We're a little bit getting really good on the witnessing on the witnessing on the witnessing and leaving people there. and leaving people there. and leaving people there. >> What's the next step after the >> What's the next step after the >> What's the next step after the witnessing? witnessing? witnessing? >> The next step is for me to witness your >> The next step is for me to witness your >> The next step is for me to witness your capacity. capacity. capacity. That sucks. What you I mean, I can't That sucks. What you I mean, I can't That sucks. What you I mean, I can't believe they f That sucks. I know you believe they f That sucks. I know you believe they f That sucks. I know you though. M though. M though. M >> I know you can turn this around. You >> I know you can turn this around. You >> I know you can turn this around. You might not see it right now, but I know might not see it right now, but I know might not see it right now, but I know who you are. who you are. who you are. >> And I witness your capacity. I need to >> And I witness your capacity. I need to >> And I witness your capacity. I need to witness your pain and witness your witness your pain and witness your witness your pain and witness your capacity for turning it around. capacity for turning it around. capacity for turning it around. >> We need that. >> We need that. >> We need that. >> The School of Greatness is brought to >> The School of Greatness is brought to >> The School of Greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. One of you in partnership with Airbnb. One of you in partnership with Airbnb. One of my favorite parts of travel is when a my favorite parts of travel is when a my favorite parts of travel is when a trip gives you a feeling you can't trip gives you a feeling you can't trip gives you a feeling you can't really plan for. You're walking through really plan for. You're walking through really plan for. You're walking through a new city in the morning. You're a new city in the morning. You're a new city in the morning. You're grabbing coffee. You're talking to grabbing coffee. You're talking to grabbing coffee. You're talking to someone local and suddenly the place someone local and suddenly the place someone local and suddenly the place feels a little bit more familiar. These feels a little bit more familiar. These feels a little bit more familiar. These are the moments that stay with me. are the moments that stay with me. are the moments that stay with me. They're the things that I crave. Not They're the things that I crave. Not They're the things that I crave. Not just the photos, but the feeling of just the photos, but the feeling of just the photos, but the feeling of being somewhere new and still finding being somewhere new and still finding being somewhere new and still finding meaningful connection. And that's what I meaningful connection. And that's what I meaningful connection. And that's what I love about Airbnb. When you're away love about Airbnb. When you're away love about Airbnb. When you're away having your own adventure, your home having your own adventure, your home having your own adventure, your home doesn't have to just sit empty either. doesn't have to just sit empty either. doesn't have to just sit empty either. You can share your space on Airbnb and You can share your space on Airbnb and You can share your space on Airbnb and give another traveler a chance to fall give another traveler a chance to fall give another traveler a chance to fall in love with your city the way that you in love with your city the way that you in love with your city the way that you fall in love with the places that you fall in love with the places that you fall in love with the places that you visit. And maybe there's a big game visit. And maybe there's a big game visit. And maybe there's a big game coming up. Or maybe people are coming in coming up. Or maybe people are coming in coming up. Or maybe people are coming in for a once-in-a-lifetime concert. They for a once-in-a-lifetime concert. They for a once-in-a-lifetime concert. They need a place that feels comfortable and need a place that feels comfortable and need a place that feels comfortable and inviting. And the income from sharing inviting. And the income from sharing inviting. And the income from sharing your home can help pay for your own your home can help pay for your own your home can help pay for your own trips. Your home might be worth more trips. Your home might be worth more trips. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at than you think. Find out how much at than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. airbnb.com/host. airbnb.com/host. From my personal experience, I held on From my personal experience, I held on From my personal experience, I held on to a lot of different grief for many to a lot of different grief for many to a lot of different grief for many years, but one was around sexual abuse, years, but one was around sexual abuse, years, but one was around sexual abuse, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And I've spoken about it many times in >> And I've spoken about it many times in >> And I've spoken about it many times in this show, but for 25 years, I didn't this show, but for 25 years, I didn't this show, but for 25 years, I didn't tell anyone about the experience of tell anyone about the experience of tell anyone about the experience of being sexually abused when I was a kid. being sexually abused when I was a kid. being sexually abused when I was a kid. And when I finally did, it was in a And when I finally did, it was in a And when I finally did, it was in a group setting. And I didn't know I was group setting. And I didn't know I was group setting. And I didn't know I was going to open up about this, but I felt going to open up about this, but I felt going to open up about this, but I felt almost inspired, like if if I don't do almost inspired, like if if I don't do almost inspired, like if if I don't do this now, I'll probably continue to this now, I'll probably continue to this now, I'll probably continue to carry this anger and resentment and pain carry this anger and resentment and pain carry this anger and resentment and pain around this thing that I really didn't around this thing that I really didn't around this thing that I really didn't know was kind of running my nervous know was kind of running my nervous know was kind of running my nervous system for so long. system for so long. system for so long. And I did it in a group setting with And I did it in a group setting with And I did it in a group setting with maybe like 40 or 50 people in the room. maybe like 40 or 50 people in the room. maybe like 40 or 50 people in the room. And it was an emotional intelligence And it was an emotional intelligence And it was an emotional intelligence workshop that had kind of that context workshop that had kind of that context workshop that had kind of that context of allowing for that to happen. I didn't of allowing for that to happen. I didn't of allowing for that to happen. I didn't go there with that intention of like, go there with that intention of like, go there with that intention of like, oh, I have grief, but it was more around oh, I have grief, but it was more around oh, I have grief, but it was more around growth. growth. growth. And I don't think I I would have been And I don't think I I would have been And I don't think I I would have been able to process that without able to process that without able to process that without others witnessing that experience where others witnessing that experience where others witnessing that experience where I felt safe, I felt safe, I felt safe, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> in the witnessing, right? And it really >> in the witnessing, right? And it really >> in the witnessing, right? And it really unlocked the ability for me to start unlocked the ability for me to start unlocked the ability for me to start healing that unresolved grief which healing that unresolved grief which healing that unresolved grief which didn't happen overnight. It took a didn't happen overnight. It took a didn't happen overnight. It took a process and there was ups and downs and process and there was ups and downs and process and there was ups and downs and a mess in it all a mess in it all a mess in it all >> in those years before you talked about >> in those years before you talked about >> in those years before you talked about it. it. it. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Did you think about it once? >> Did you think about it once? >> Did you think about it once? >> Almost daily. >> Almost daily. >> Almost daily. >> Daily >> Daily >> Daily >> for like 25 years. Almost daily. I mean >> for like 25 years. Almost daily. I mean >> for like 25 years. Almost daily. I mean or I'd stuff it away. or I'd stuff it away. or I'd stuff it away. >> How much energy looking back now >> How much energy looking back now >> How much energy looking back now >> did it take to manage that? >> did it take to manage that? >> did it take to manage that? >> So much. >> So much. >> So much. >> So much energy. >> So much energy. >> So much energy. wasted wasted wasted >> wasted and I also believe nothing's >> wasted and I also believe nothing's >> wasted and I also believe nothing's wasted. So, but I understand that wasted. So, but I understand that wasted. So, but I understand that concept concept concept >> and >> and >> and >> the moment you my guess is someone >> the moment you my guess is someone >> the moment you my guess is someone before you spoke and you were like, "Oh, before you spoke and you were like, "Oh, before you spoke and you were like, "Oh, if they can say that." if they can say that." if they can say that." >> Oo, I could say that one thing I haven't >> Oo, I could say that one thing I haven't >> Oo, I could say that one thing I haven't thought about saying. thought about saying. thought about saying. >> They didn't talk about sexual abuse, but >> They didn't talk about sexual abuse, but >> They didn't talk about sexual abuse, but people were opening up and I was like, people were opening up and I was like, people were opening up and I was like, "Wow, they've been through some stuff." "Wow, they've been through some stuff." "Wow, they've been through some stuff." Wow, they've been through some stuff. Wow, they've been through some stuff. Wow, they've been through some stuff. Oh, this might be safe. We find Oh, this might be safe. We find Oh, this might be safe. We find ourselves in each other's stories. ourselves in each other's stories. ourselves in each other's stories. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And we find our healing in each other's >> And we find our healing in each other's >> And we find our healing in each other's stories. stories. stories. >> So, one more piece on this. All grief >> So, one more piece on this. All grief >> So, one more piece on this. All grief does not have trauma, does not have trauma, does not have trauma, but all trauma has grief. but all trauma has grief. but all trauma has grief. >> So, you know, our hundredyear-old >> So, you know, our hundredyear-old >> So, you know, our hundredyear-old grandfather who's had a great life. grandfather who's had a great life. grandfather who's had a great life. Yeah. It's grief. Yeah. It's grief. Yeah. It's grief. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Pure grief. sexual abuse that you've >> Pure grief. sexual abuse that you've >> Pure grief. sexual abuse that you've had, sexual abuse that I've had. There's had, sexual abuse that I've had. There's had, sexual abuse that I've had. There's trauma and grief. trauma and grief. trauma and grief. >> And we're a society that knows how to >> And we're a society that knows how to >> And we're a society that knows how to talk about the trauma. talk about the trauma. talk about the trauma. >> But we also have to remember, wait a >> But we also have to remember, wait a >> But we also have to remember, wait a minute, there were years lost. There was minute, there were years lost. There was minute, there were years lost. There was an innocence. an innocence. an innocence. >> There was an innocent childhood we >> There was an innocent childhood we >> There was an innocent childhood we deserve this lifetime deserve this lifetime deserve this lifetime >> we're never getting. >> we're never getting. >> we're never getting. >> And we have to do a little grief work on >> And we have to do a little grief work on >> And we have to do a little grief work on that. that. that. >> And when you're an adult, it's hard to >> And when you're an adult, it's hard to >> And when you're an adult, it's hard to reconcile with that, reconcile with that, reconcile with that, >> right? You're like, "Huh, my whole >> right? You're like, "Huh, my whole >> right? You're like, "Huh, my whole childhood gone in some ways, you know." childhood gone in some ways, you know." childhood gone in some ways, you know." >> Absolutely. And that is recognizing that >> Absolutely. And that is recognizing that >> Absolutely. And that is recognizing that is the beginning of the grieving is the beginning of the grieving is the beginning of the grieving process. process. process. >> We got to >> We got to >> We got to be willing to face it ourselves. That be willing to face it ourselves. That be willing to face it ourselves. That was probably the scariest moment of my was probably the scariest moment of my was probably the scariest moment of my life was speaking it out loud, speaking life was speaking it out loud, speaking life was speaking it out loud, speaking in front of people that I, you know, not in front of people that I, you know, not in front of people that I, you know, not strangers, but essentially I just met strangers, but essentially I just met strangers, but essentially I just met for a few days, for a few days, for a few days, >> right? >> right? >> right? And in some ways it might have it was And in some ways it might have it was And in some ways it might have it was easier that it was easier that there easier that it was easier that there easier that it was easier that there wasn't like friends and family because I wasn't like friends and family because I wasn't like friends and family because I >> part of it was oh if my friends or >> part of it was oh if my friends or >> part of it was oh if my friends or family knew this about me no one would family knew this about me no one would family knew this about me no one would love me love me love me >> and and they have so much energy around >> and and they have so much energy around >> and and they have so much energy around you. you. you. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> You know it's interesting when my son >> You know it's interesting when my son >> You know it's interesting when my son died and I had to eventually go back to died and I had to eventually go back to died and I had to eventually go back to work and I had to think about which work and I had to think about which work and I had to think about which lecture is going to be my first back. lecture is going to be my first back. lecture is going to be my first back. I wanted something that I felt I could I wanted something that I felt I could I wanted something that I felt I could manage, manage, manage, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> My first lecture back was to the LAPD. >> My first lecture back was to the LAPD. >> My first lecture back was to the LAPD. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I wanted people who were just going to >> I wanted people who were just going to >> I wanted people who were just going to sort of be there, but like they're not sort of be there, but like they're not sort of be there, but like they're not going to therapize me. They're not going going to therapize me. They're not going going to therapize me. They're not going to go into like I just needed to like to go into like I just needed to like to go into like I just needed to like have that first talk and say it, have that first talk and say it, have that first talk and say it, >> you know? So, it's interesting how >> you know? So, it's interesting how >> you know? So, it's interesting how sometimes the strangers don't have all sometimes the strangers don't have all sometimes the strangers don't have all the baggage that our loved ones do. the baggage that our loved ones do. the baggage that our loved ones do. >> Yeah, it was interesting. I finally got >> Yeah, it was interesting. I finally got >> Yeah, it was interesting. I finally got the courage to tell friends and family. the courage to tell friends and family. the courage to tell friends and family. And thank goodness everyone received it And thank goodness everyone received it And thank goodness everyone received it well, right, and had the capacity to well, right, and had the capacity to well, right, and had the capacity to experience it and and share that experience it and and share that experience it and and share that sadness for the experience or the sadness for the experience or the sadness for the experience or the sadness for my, you know, the little boy sadness for my, you know, the little boy sadness for my, you know, the little boy in me that had this experience. and and in me that had this experience. and and in me that had this experience. and and in some ways it felt like it it made the in some ways it felt like it it made the in some ways it felt like it it made the connection stronger with each one of connection stronger with each one of connection stronger with each one of those individuals which I was grateful those individuals which I was grateful those individuals which I was grateful for. But I also have heard people say for. But I also have heard people say for. But I also have heard people say that they've shared grief or trauma tied that they've shared grief or trauma tied that they've shared grief or trauma tied with grief to friends, family, loved with grief to friends, family, loved with grief to friends, family, loved ones and it was not received well. So ones and it was not received well. So ones and it was not received well. So what happens if someone shares their what happens if someone shares their what happens if someone shares their grief with someone where it says ah suck grief with someone where it says ah suck grief with someone where it says ah suck it up or well it's tough that that it up or well it's tough that that it up or well it's tough that that happened but move on or whatever they happened but move on or whatever they happened but move on or whatever they did you know maybe they didn't have the did you know maybe they didn't have the did you know maybe they didn't have the tools or the skills to communicate tools or the skills to communicate tools or the skills to communicate effectively because they are repressing effectively because they are repressing effectively because they are repressing their grief or trauma or something or their grief or trauma or something or their grief or trauma or something or it's just not in their capacity. But it's just not in their capacity. But it's just not in their capacity. But what happens when you open up to someone what happens when you open up to someone what happens when you open up to someone who doesn't receive your grief well and who doesn't receive your grief well and who doesn't receive your grief well and it almost traumatizes you more? That's it almost traumatizes you more? That's it almost traumatizes you more? That's why there's been grief groups since the why there's been grief groups since the why there's been grief groups since the beginning of time because we need to beginning of time because we need to beginning of time because we need to find those people who know. The truth find those people who know. The truth find those people who know. The truth is, is, is, look, most people in grief could look look, most people in grief could look look, most people in grief could look back and go, "Oh, I didn't I didn't do back and go, "Oh, I didn't I didn't do back and go, "Oh, I didn't I didn't do this as well as I could have with this as well as I could have with this as well as I could have with someone before I knew." Once grief comes someone before I knew." Once grief comes someone before I knew." Once grief comes to you, you you understand it. But, you to you, you you understand it. But, you to you, you you understand it. But, you know, if you're having in a horrible know, if you're having in a horrible know, if you're having in a horrible divorce and all your happily married divorce and all your happily married divorce and all your happily married friends, they're not going to get it. friends, they're not going to get it. friends, they're not going to get it. your divorce friends might get it. So, your divorce friends might get it. So, your divorce friends might get it. So, one, we have to pick our audience. one, we have to pick our audience. one, we have to pick our audience. And the thing is, I love that line about And the thing is, I love that line about And the thing is, I love that line about no matter how like people always want, I no matter how like people always want, I no matter how like people always want, I got my sister's got to get it, my spouse got my sister's got to get it, my spouse got my sister's got to get it, my spouse has to get it, my help me have the right has to get it, my help me have the right has to get it, my help me have the right words to convince them of the pain I'm words to convince them of the pain I'm words to convince them of the pain I'm in. And I often say that line about no in. And I often say that line about no in. And I often say that line about no matter how many times you go up and down matter how many times you go up and down matter how many times you go up and down the aisle of a hardware store, you're the aisle of a hardware store, you're the aisle of a hardware store, you're never finding milk. never finding milk. never finding milk. You're not changing your sister. You're not changing your sister. You're not changing your sister. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, let's transplant you to a place with >> So, let's transplant you to a place with >> So, let's transplant you to a place with people you can talk about it. people you can talk about it. people you can talk about it. >> It's a grief illiterate world. >> It's a grief illiterate world. >> It's a grief illiterate world. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's a grief illiterate world. >> It's a grief illiterate world. >> It's a grief illiterate world. >> No, it's until you've gone through it >> No, it's until you've gone through it >> No, it's until you've gone through it and you say, "I want to learn about it." and you say, "I want to learn about it." and you say, "I want to learn about it." And a lot of people have gone through it And a lot of people have gone through it And a lot of people have gone through it and don't learn about it. They stuff it and don't learn about it. They stuff it and don't learn about it. They stuff it >> or get stuck in it. >> or get stuck in it. >> or get stuck in it. >> They get stuck in it. They don't want to >> They get stuck in it. They don't want to >> They get stuck in it. They don't want to do the work to heal or transform it do the work to heal or transform it do the work to heal or transform it because in some ways it's scary. It's because in some ways it's scary. It's because in some ways it's scary. It's hard. It's unfamiliar. There's some hard. It's unfamiliar. There's some hard. It's unfamiliar. There's some sense of control and feeling angry or sense of control and feeling angry or sense of control and feeling angry or resentment or whatever it is. resentment or whatever it is. resentment or whatever it is. >> And it's feelings that are bigger than >> And it's feelings that are bigger than >> And it's feelings that are bigger than us and feel like they will take us out us and feel like they will take us out us and feel like they will take us out of control or we're going to start of control or we're going to start of control or we're going to start crying. You know, and I tell people who crying. You know, and I tell people who crying. You know, and I tell people who say to me, say to me, say to me, >> if I start crying, I'll never stop. I'll >> if I start crying, I'll never stop. I'll >> if I start crying, I'll never stop. I'll go go go >> I've been with thousands of people. >> I've been with thousands of people. >> I've been with thousands of people. Everyone stops crying. Everyone stops crying. Everyone stops crying. >> You get tired at some point, >> You get tired at some point, >> You get tired at some point, >> right? Or you know, men who goes, I >> right? Or you know, men who goes, I >> right? Or you know, men who goes, I can't cry. It's not. And I'm like, can't cry. It's not. And I'm like, can't cry. It's not. And I'm like, really? I've been I worked at 911. And I really? I've been I worked at 911. And I really? I've been I worked at 911. And I was there with firemen who were digging was there with firemen who were digging was there with firemen who were digging for their brothers crying. You You want for their brothers crying. You You want for their brothers crying. You You want me to tell them they're not being manly? me to tell them they're not being manly? me to tell them they're not being manly? >> Like, dude, we got to redefine manhood >> Like, dude, we got to redefine manhood >> Like, dude, we got to redefine manhood here. here. here. >> When someone says they don't have the >> When someone says they don't have the >> When someone says they don't have the ability to cry, what are they really ability to cry, what are they really ability to cry, what are they really saying? saying? saying? >> I'm judging my feelings. >> I'm judging my feelings. >> I'm judging my feelings. People will say to me, I can't cry. And People will say to me, I can't cry. And People will say to me, I can't cry. And I go, you can't cry or you're judging I go, you can't cry or you're judging I go, you can't cry or you're judging yourself for not crying. The thing is, yourself for not crying. The thing is, yourself for not crying. The thing is, if we're judging ourselves about we if we're judging ourselves about we if we're judging ourselves about we should be crying, and this happens all should be crying, and this happens all should be crying, and this happens all the time. I'll say, "You're judging your the time. I'll say, "You're judging your the time. I'll say, "You're judging your feelings." And people go, "No, I'm not." feelings." And people go, "No, I'm not." feelings." And people go, "No, I'm not." And I'll go, "Well, but you're telling And I'll go, "Well, but you're telling And I'll go, "Well, but you're telling me you should be crying, which means me you should be crying, which means me you should be crying, which means you're not okay feeling what you're you're not okay feeling what you're you're not okay feeling what you're feeling now. There's a should here, feeling now. There's a should here, feeling now. There's a should here, which means you got a judgment. Judgment which means you got a judgment. Judgment which means you got a judgment. Judgment demands punishment. You're going to demands punishment. You're going to demands punishment. You're going to punish yourself or others, and you're punish yourself or others, and you're punish yourself or others, and you're clearly not going to cry. clearly not going to cry. clearly not going to cry. We have to get to a point where we go, We have to get to a point where we go, We have to get to a point where we go, you know what? I'm going to accept my you know what? I'm going to accept my you know what? I'm going to accept my feelings. If I cry, I cry. If I don't, I feelings. If I cry, I cry. If I don't, I feelings. If I cry, I cry. If I don't, I don't. Let me just accept. It's a weird don't. Let me just accept. It's a weird don't. Let me just accept. It's a weird paradox that to feel your feelings, you paradox that to feel your feelings, you paradox that to feel your feelings, you have to accept them have to accept them have to accept them >> and then you begin to move through them. >> and then you begin to move through them. >> and then you begin to move through them. >> If someone says, "I haven't cried in >> If someone says, "I haven't cried in >> If someone says, "I haven't cried in years." What is it that they're years." What is it that they're years." What is it that they're blocking? I would say to them, um, I blocking? I would say to them, um, I blocking? I would say to them, um, I think that wisdom is in you, and I think think that wisdom is in you, and I think think that wisdom is in you, and I think you might want to put some effort into you might want to put some effort into you might want to put some effort into getting curious about it versus getting curious about it versus getting curious about it versus judgmental. judgmental. judgmental. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What would it look like if you weren't >> What would it look like if you weren't >> What would it look like if you weren't block? What what would your life look block? What what would your life look block? What what would your life look like if it wasn't being blocked? like if it wasn't being blocked? like if it wasn't being blocked? What What are the obstacles that's What What are the obstacles that's What What are the obstacles that's keeping you that way? keeping you that way? keeping you that way? And a lot of us get this learned And a lot of us get this learned And a lot of us get this learned helplessness that we're like, there's no helplessness that we're like, there's no helplessness that we're like, there's no way out. And that's when we need someone way out. And that's when we need someone way out. And that's when we need someone to go, "Yes, there is. Give Give me your to go, "Yes, there is. Give Give me your to go, "Yes, there is. Give Give me your hand. Yes, there is. We're going to hand. Yes, there is. We're going to hand. Yes, there is. We're going to look. I can't take you all the way, but look. I can't take you all the way, but look. I can't take you all the way, but I can open the door and show you some I can open the door and show you some I can open the door and show you some stuff." stuff." stuff." >> Because most people don't have the tools >> Because most people don't have the tools >> Because most people don't have the tools to navigate grief. Well, it seems like to navigate grief. Well, it seems like to navigate grief. Well, it seems like they haven't learned it at an early they haven't learned it at an early they haven't learned it at an early stage or stage or stage or >> they weren't taught it or they didn't >> they weren't taught it or they didn't >> they weren't taught it or they didn't learn how to discover it. learn how to discover it. learn how to discover it. >> You know, as a as a a parent to twin >> You know, as a as a a parent to twin >> You know, as a as a a parent to twin girls now, girls now, girls now, >> right? >> right? >> right? How could I demonstrate How could I demonstrate How could I demonstrate how to move through grief when they're, how to move through grief when they're, how to move through grief when they're, you know, five years old and someone you know, five years old and someone you know, five years old and someone doesn't want to play with them or doesn't want to play with them or doesn't want to play with them or something and they feel like they had a something and they feel like they had a something and they feel like they had a friend that doesn't want to hang out friend that doesn't want to hang out friend that doesn't want to hang out with them or whatever it is. How can I with them or whatever it is. How can I with them or whatever it is. How can I teach it early with something small so teach it early with something small so teach it early with something small so that they understand how to navigate it that they understand how to navigate it that they understand how to navigate it through life's challenges when they're through life's challenges when they're through life's challenges when they're older? older? older? >> Absolutely. Think of what we said around >> Absolutely. Think of what we said around >> Absolutely. Think of what we said around feelings. So, just treat it as their feelings. So, just treat it as their feelings. So, just treat it as their feelings. What mistakes do we do? we, feelings. What mistakes do we do? we, feelings. What mistakes do we do? we, you know, I can't believe they don't you know, I can't believe they don't you know, I can't believe they don't want to play with me and your daughter want to play with me and your daughter want to play with me and your daughter starts crying and your other daughter's starts crying and your other daughter's starts crying and your other daughter's fine. What do we say? You should be more fine. What do we say? You should be more fine. What do we say? You should be more like her. like her. like her. >> Shutting down the feelings or that >> Shutting down the feelings or that >> Shutting down the feelings or that friend's not worth it. Don't have that friend's not worth it. Don't have that friend's not worth it. Don't have that feeling or that's a silly thing to feeling or that's a silly thing to feeling or that's a silly thing to shaming them shaming them shaming them >> instead going back to the witnessing. >> instead going back to the witnessing. >> instead going back to the witnessing. Wow, it is really sad when someone Wow, it is really sad when someone Wow, it is really sad when someone doesn't want to play with us. then going doesn't want to play with us. then going doesn't want to play with us. then going to the capacity. You know, it's sad and to the capacity. You know, it's sad and to the capacity. You know, it's sad and I bet we could still have some fun this I bet we could still have some fun this I bet we could still have some fun this afternoon. afternoon. afternoon. >> Knowing you and me, we could have some >> Knowing you and me, we could have some >> Knowing you and me, we could have some fun, fun, fun, but don't shut those feelings down. Just but don't shut those feelings down. Just but don't shut those feelings down. Just allow them. So, how do people learn to allow them. So, how do people learn to allow them. So, how do people learn to teach how to communicate your feelings teach how to communicate your feelings teach how to communicate your feelings when a lot of people feel like feelings when a lot of people feel like feelings when a lot of people feel like feelings are bad or they don't want to deal with are bad or they don't want to deal with are bad or they don't want to deal with the feelings of another person or it's the feelings of another person or it's the feelings of another person or it's hard for them to watch someone cry or hard for them to watch someone cry or hard for them to watch someone cry or scream or whatever it might be? scream or whatever it might be? scream or whatever it might be? >> How do we teach that specifically in men >> How do we teach that specifically in men >> How do we teach that specifically in men who I think have never been taught how who I think have never been taught how who I think have never been taught how to navigate feelings? to navigate feelings? to navigate feelings? >> Listen, I got into this work because my >> Listen, I got into this work because my >> Listen, I got into this work because my mother died when I was young. There was mother died when I was young. There was mother died when I was young. There was a horrible shooting and the only advice a horrible shooting and the only advice a horrible shooting and the only advice I got was in the hallway, the stairwell I got was in the hallway, the stairwell I got was in the hallway, the stairwell of the hospital. Someone said to me, "Be of the hospital. Someone said to me, "Be of the hospital. Someone said to me, "Be strong." strong." strong." >> That was it. >> That was it. >> That was it. >> That was it. Which is no feelings. Take >> That was it. Which is no feelings. Take >> That was it. Which is no feelings. Take care of everyone. care of everyone. care of everyone. >> Suck it up. >> Suck it up. >> Suck it up. >> Suck it up. Just another version of suck >> Suck it up. Just another version of suck >> Suck it up. Just another version of suck it up. And the problem is like, let's it up. And the problem is like, let's it up. And the problem is like, let's fast forward to what it's like being fast forward to what it's like being fast forward to what it's like being with people who are dying. What do we do with people who are dying. What do we do with people who are dying. What do we do when we suck it up? The half, the other when we suck it up? The half, the other when we suck it up? The half, the other half is suck it up, be productive, half is suck it up, be productive, half is suck it up, be productive, go do something. Then we get to our go do something. Then we get to our go do something. Then we get to our deathbed and go, "Oh, I did. deathbed and go, "Oh, I did. deathbed and go, "Oh, I did. >> I performed. >> I performed. >> I performed. >> I did. I performed, but I did. I missed >> I did. I performed, but I did. I missed >> I did. I performed, but I did. I missed the love. I missed the presence." I the love. I missed the presence." I the love. I missed the presence." I mean, the thing is, mean, the thing is, mean, the thing is, you know, you and I could have a you know, you and I could have a you know, you and I could have a completely inauthentic discussion. completely inauthentic discussion. completely inauthentic discussion. Like earlier, we didn't have an Like earlier, we didn't have an Like earlier, we didn't have an inauthentic discussion. We had an inauthentic discussion. We had an inauthentic discussion. We had an authentic discussion and we talked about authentic discussion and we talked about authentic discussion and we talked about real things. That didn't separate us. I real things. That didn't separate us. I real things. That didn't separate us. I hope it made us feel more comfortable. hope it made us feel more comfortable. hope it made us feel more comfortable. >> And that's an illusion that those >> And that's an illusion that those >> And that's an illusion that those feelings are going to ruin something. feelings are going to ruin something. feelings are going to ruin something. Vulnerability, you know, Bnee Brown Vulnerability, you know, Bnee Brown Vulnerability, you know, Bnee Brown who's like just she's been amazing with who's like just she's been amazing with who's like just she's been amazing with this. Just you realize vulnerability is this. Just you realize vulnerability is this. Just you realize vulnerability is a superpower. a superpower. a superpower. It's a superpower. It's a superpower. It's a superpower. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You worked with a lot of different >> You worked with a lot of different >> You worked with a lot of different individuals over many years. individuals over many years. individuals over many years. From your From your From your clinical perspective, clinical perspective, clinical perspective, who has a harder time truly expressing who has a harder time truly expressing who has a harder time truly expressing their feelings? Men or women? their feelings? Men or women? their feelings? Men or women? >> Men. >> Men. >> Men. And a lot of times when I work with men, And a lot of times when I work with men, And a lot of times when I work with men, uh, men who aren't comfortable don't uh, men who aren't comfortable don't uh, men who aren't comfortable don't know how to do this. They don't know how know how to do this. They don't know how know how to do this. They don't know how to do face to face. And a lot of times to do face to face. And a lot of times to do face to face. And a lot of times our spouses and people will like sit men our spouses and people will like sit men our spouses and people will like sit men down and go d, which is like the worst down and go d, which is like the worst down and go d, which is like the worst thing. When I'm working with men and thing. When I'm working with men and thing. When I'm working with men and they're don't traffic well in feelings, they're don't traffic well in feelings, they're don't traffic well in feelings, I'm like, let's take a walk. I'm like, let's take a walk. I'm like, let's take a walk. >> Men do better sometimes >> Men do better sometimes >> Men do better sometimes shoulderto-shoulder talking. shoulderto-shoulder talking. shoulderto-shoulder talking. >> Yeah. not >> Yeah. not >> Yeah. not >> staring at, right? How do you feel about >> staring at, right? How do you feel about >> staring at, right? How do you feel about it? You know, it's like, "No, I don't it? You know, it's like, "No, I don't it? You know, it's like, "No, I don't want to hear what you think. I want to want to hear what you think. I want to want to hear what you think. I want to know what you feel." Well, if you can't know what you feel." Well, if you can't know what you feel." Well, if you can't go there, I'll hear what you think. go there, I'll hear what you think. go there, I'll hear what you think. >> Your thinking's going to reveal your >> Your thinking's going to reveal your >> Your thinking's going to reveal your feelings. feelings. feelings. >> It's fine. >> It's fine. >> It's fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I got to meet people where they are. I >> I got to meet people where they are. I >> I got to meet people where they are. I mean, we all, you know, one of the mean, we all, you know, one of the mean, we all, you know, one of the things that I say to people so much, things that I say to people so much, things that I say to people so much, >> friends, colleagues, whenever we're in >> friends, colleagues, whenever we're in >> friends, colleagues, whenever we're in disagreements with the world and the disagreements with the world and the disagreements with the world and the people around us, I'm like, you're in people around us, I'm like, you're in people around us, I'm like, you're in um confrontation, argument, war with who um confrontation, argument, war with who um confrontation, argument, war with who you think they should be. Mhm. you think they should be. Mhm. you think they should be. Mhm. >> If you take all these tools and realize >> If you take all these tools and realize >> If you take all these tools and realize that's what you're projecting, just see that's what you're projecting, just see that's what you're projecting, just see them, meet them for who they are. them, meet them for who they are. them, meet them for who they are. >> What if they're not happy with who they >> What if they're not happy with who they >> What if they're not happy with who they are? are? are? >> Then we've got some power to do >> Then we've got some power to do >> Then we've got some power to do something. Because I'll tell you, we something. Because I'll tell you, we something. Because I'll tell you, we have the power to stay. We have the have the power to stay. We have the have the power to stay. We have the power to go. We don't have the power to power to go. We don't have the power to power to go. We don't have the power to change other people. change other people. change other people. >> I've tried. I've spent a life trying. >> I've tried. I've spent a life trying. >> I've tried. I've spent a life trying. They don't change. and we get frustrated They don't change. and we get frustrated They don't change. and we get frustrated doesn't mean we can't encourage. doesn't mean we can't encourage. doesn't mean we can't encourage. There's little things we can do. I'm There's little things we can do. I'm There's little things we can do. I'm gonna get further with people if I say I gonna get further with people if I say I gonna get further with people if I say I really like what you did and name the really like what you did and name the really like what you did and name the things you do well versus naming the things you do well versus naming the things you do well versus naming the things you don't do well. things you don't do well. things you don't do well. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> that's going to help the other person >> that's going to help the other person >> that's going to help the other person grow. grow. grow. >> But I've never nagged anyone into >> But I've never nagged anyone into >> But I've never nagged anyone into change. change. change. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Judge them into change. That's not going >> Judge them into change. That's not going >> Judge them into change. That's not going to work. to work. to work. >> Not working. not worth. >> Not working. not worth. >> Not working. not worth. >> They're not going to be happy. >> They're not going to be happy. >> They're not going to be happy. >> Got to meet them where they are. >> Got to meet them where they are. >> Got to meet them where they are. >> You talk about this idea of unintended >> You talk about this idea of unintended >> You talk about this idea of unintended grief. Grief that people carry around grief. Grief that people carry around grief. Grief that people carry around without realizing it. without realizing it. without realizing it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Can you explain how that shows up in >> Can you explain how that shows up in >> Can you explain how that shows up in someone's daily life and how it impacts someone's daily life and how it impacts someone's daily life and how it impacts their relationships or their ability to their relationships or their ability to their relationships or their ability to succeed? succeed? succeed? >> We could say, look at really famous >> We could say, look at really famous >> We could say, look at really famous people. Look at successful people. Look people. Look at successful people. Look people. Look at successful people. Look at people in your family who have had a at people in your family who have had a at people in your family who have had a horrible acting out situation. horrible acting out situation. horrible acting out situation. any celebrity sports figure like they any celebrity sports figure like they any celebrity sports figure like they just acted something. Oh, I don't just acted something. Oh, I don't just acted something. Oh, I don't understand with all their money. How' understand with all their money. How' understand with all their money. How' they do that? they do that? they do that? Grief and feelings. Grief and feelings. Grief and feelings. Yes, they blew up in that moment cuz Yes, they blew up in that moment cuz Yes, they blew up in that moment cuz they couldn't manage the bigness of what they couldn't manage the bigness of what they couldn't manage the bigness of what was going on was going on was going on instead of learning how to manage it in instead of learning how to manage it in instead of learning how to manage it in all these small moments. all these small moments. all these small moments. We see it all the time. People self- We see it all the time. People self- We see it all the time. People self- sabotage in the big ways because they sabotage in the big ways because they sabotage in the big ways because they don't learn how to just deal with the don't learn how to just deal with the don't learn how to just deal with the disappointments, the changes, the griefs disappointments, the changes, the griefs disappointments, the changes, the griefs of everyday life. Like the question you of everyday life. Like the question you of everyday life. Like the question you asked about your daughters asked about your daughters asked about your daughters is there's people who we've all seen is there's people who we've all seen is there's people who we've all seen them implode who never asked that them implode who never asked that them implode who never asked that question and no one asked that question question and no one asked that question question and no one asked that question about them. about them. about them. >> They weren't their feelings weren't >> They weren't their feelings weren't >> They weren't their feelings weren't attended to. attended to. attended to. >> Right. When people say to me like why >> Right. When people say to me like why >> Right. When people say to me like why should I feel these feel? Well, look at should I feel these feel? Well, look at should I feel these feel? Well, look at what happens to the people who don't. We what happens to the people who don't. We what happens to the people who don't. We you turn on the TV, they'll they're you turn on the TV, they'll they're you turn on the TV, they'll they're about to blow. about to blow. about to blow. >> That's what happens. And it's >> That's what happens. And it's >> That's what happens. And it's devastating that you see really good devastating that you see really good devastating that you see really good people damage their careers and their people damage their careers and their people damage their careers and their lives or use substances or all the other lives or use substances or all the other lives or use substances or all the other things we do because we don't know how things we do because we don't know how things we do because we don't know how to manage our feelings. to manage our feelings. to manage our feelings. >> How does someone know if they have >> How does someone know if they have >> How does someone know if they have grief? your actions become automatic. grief? your actions become automatic. grief? your actions become automatic. I don't know why I reacted that way. I I don't know why I reacted that way. I I don't know why I reacted that way. I don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know why I'm so angry. Like people don't why I'm so angry. Like people don't why I'm so angry. Like people don't understand anger is often grief. You understand anger is often grief. You understand anger is often grief. You know, I talk about anger is pain's know, I talk about anger is pain's know, I talk about anger is pain's bodyguard. bodyguard. bodyguard. The anger shows up, but it's about the The anger shows up, but it's about the The anger shows up, but it's about the pain it's protecting. pain it's protecting. pain it's protecting. >> And so a lot of time that pain is >> And so a lot of time that pain is >> And so a lot of time that pain is unattended grief. That was the trigger unattended grief. That was the trigger unattended grief. That was the trigger for me when I it got me to a place to to for me when I it got me to a place to to for me when I it got me to a place to to go to this workshop and start opening up go to this workshop and start opening up go to this workshop and start opening up is because I felt like for a few years I is because I felt like for a few years I is because I felt like for a few years I was getting so easily triggered by the was getting so easily triggered by the was getting so easily triggered by the littlest things that would make me angry littlest things that would make me angry littlest things that would make me angry and it would just get bigger and bigger and it would just get bigger and bigger and it would just get bigger and bigger kind of like reactions that were kind of like reactions that were kind of like reactions that were automatic like I wasn't even able to automatic like I wasn't even able to automatic like I wasn't even able to stop myself from reacting until stop myself from reacting until stop myself from reacting until afterwards I was like what am I doing afterwards I was like what am I doing afterwards I was like what am I doing you know it's just like right you know it's just like right you know it's just like right >> who am I why am I reacting this >> who am I why am I reacting this >> who am I why am I reacting this and my best friend Matt, who's actually and my best friend Matt, who's actually and my best friend Matt, who's actually here, we I got in a basketball fight in here, we I got in a basketball fight in here, we I got in a basketball fight in West Hollywood on the main streets of West Hollywood on the main streets of West Hollywood on the main streets of West Hollywood, you [laughter] know, West Hollywood, you [laughter] know, West Hollywood, you [laughter] know, next to Beverly next to Beverly Hills. next to Beverly next to Beverly Hills. next to Beverly next to Beverly Hills. >> And um I was getting in multiple like >> And um I was getting in multiple like >> And um I was getting in multiple like altercations on the basketball court, altercations on the basketball court, altercations on the basketball court, >> probably weekly for like months until I >> probably weekly for like months until I >> probably weekly for like months until I got an actual fist fight. And the guy got an actual fist fight. And the guy got an actual fist fight. And the guy ended up being okay after all of it or ended up being okay after all of it or ended up being okay after all of it or whatever. But it was a big wakeup call whatever. But it was a big wakeup call whatever. But it was a big wakeup call where my friend Matt was like, "I don't where my friend Matt was like, "I don't where my friend Matt was like, "I don't want to hang out with you anymore. You want to hang out with you anymore. You want to hang out with you anymore. You keep reacting in this way, keep reacting in this way, keep reacting in this way, >> right?" >> right?" >> right?" >> And he was at a lot of these games with >> And he was at a lot of these games with >> And he was at a lot of these games with me. There was nothing on the line. There me. There was nothing on the line. There me. There was nothing on the line. There was no big stakes. These were just was no big stakes. These were just was no big stakes. These were just friendly pickup games. But I was getting friendly pickup games. But I was getting friendly pickup games. But I was getting easily triggered by the littlest things. easily triggered by the littlest things. easily triggered by the littlest things. And that's when I was like, "Oh, if my And that's when I was like, "Oh, if my And that's when I was like, "Oh, if my best friend is calling me out on this best friend is calling me out on this best friend is calling me out on this and doesn't want to hang out with me, and doesn't want to hang out with me, and doesn't want to hang out with me, like it's not these people, it's me." like it's not these people, it's me." like it's not these people, it's me." You know, I'm the one who needs to work You know, I'm the one who needs to work You know, I'm the one who needs to work on this. not trying to control everyone on this. not trying to control everyone on this. not trying to control everyone else in my life to be a certain way to else in my life to be a certain way to else in my life to be a certain way to make me happy. make me happy. make me happy. And that was a wakeup call that got me And that was a wakeup call that got me And that was a wakeup call that got me down this whole path of down this whole path of down this whole path of learning and navigating and and learning and navigating and and learning and navigating and and developing myself. And I think it's an developing myself. And I think it's an developing myself. And I think it's an it's going to be an ongoing journey for it's going to be an ongoing journey for it's going to be an ongoing journey for the rest of my life. That was grief. Me the rest of my life. That was grief. Me the rest of my life. That was grief. Me automatically getting angry automatically getting angry automatically getting angry >> really over nothing. >> really over nothing. >> really over nothing. >> Yeah. I would love to talk about >> Yeah. I would love to talk about >> Yeah. I would love to talk about triggers for a moment. triggers for a moment. triggers for a moment. >> Let's do it. And I before we go there, I >> Let's do it. And I before we go there, I >> Let's do it. And I before we go there, I just want to say when we're talking just want to say when we're talking just want to say when we're talking about the six stage in finding meaning, about the six stage in finding meaning, about the six stage in finding meaning, I'm just in awe of that story that you I'm just in awe of that story that you I'm just in awe of that story that you have taken this worse event have taken this worse event have taken this worse event probably one of the worst of your life probably one of the worst of your life probably one of the worst of your life and you are talking about it and helping and you are talking about it and helping and you are talking about it and helping millions of people who you're not even millions of people who you're not even millions of people who you're not even going to know how much you help them. going to know how much you help them. going to know how much you help them. That's you making meaning. That's you making meaning. That's you making meaning. >> That's you making meaning. >> That's you making meaning. >> That's you making meaning. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean it's remarkable. >> I mean it's remarkable. >> I mean it's remarkable. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Take that in. >> Take that in. >> Take that in. >> I appreciate it. And it's you know I >> I appreciate it. And it's you know I >> I appreciate it. And it's you know I remember I launched this show school of remember I launched this show school of remember I launched this show school of greatness 13 and a half years ago and I greatness 13 and a half years ago and I greatness 13 and a half years ago and I went through this kind of workshop went through this kind of workshop went through this kind of workshop before was it right before I No, it's before was it right before I No, it's before was it right before I No, it's after I launched the podcast maybe six after I launched the podcast maybe six after I launched the podcast maybe six months in. months in. months in. And it's funny because, And it's funny because, And it's funny because, you know, I had a small following back you know, I had a small following back you know, I had a small following back then, but after I launched this, after I then, but after I launched this, after I then, but after I launched this, after I did the workshop and started releasing did the workshop and started releasing did the workshop and started releasing this kind of grief, I guess I if you this kind of grief, I guess I if you this kind of grief, I guess I if you call it releasing it or call it releasing it or call it releasing it or >> integrating it or whatever, right? >> integrating it or whatever, right? >> integrating it or whatever, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I would start getting these emails from >> I would start getting these emails from >> I would start getting these emails from people saying, "I really liked your show people saying, "I really liked your show people saying, "I really liked your show before, but like something's different before, but like something's different before, but like something's different about how you respond and how you about how you respond and how you about how you respond and how you interact and the questions you ask." And interact and the questions you ask." And interact and the questions you ask." And people were noticing me transforming by people were noticing me transforming by people were noticing me transforming by just my energy on the show. And I waited just my energy on the show. And I waited just my energy on the show. And I waited maybe six months after this workshop and maybe six months after this workshop and maybe six months after this workshop and me starting this process and after kind me starting this process and after kind me starting this process and after kind of talking to my friends and family of talking to my friends and family of talking to my friends and family about what what I went through sexual about what what I went through sexual about what what I went through sexual abuse abuse abuse and I realized, oh, okay, I've opened up and I realized, oh, okay, I've opened up and I realized, oh, okay, I've opened up to a group of strangers. I've opened to a group of strangers. I've opened to a group of strangers. I've opened them up to my friends and family, but them up to my friends and family, but them up to my friends and family, but I'm still afraid of kind of my audience I'm still afraid of kind of my audience I'm still afraid of kind of my audience or the or others knowing this about me or the or others knowing this about me or the or others knowing this about me >> and I realized like, oh, it still has >> and I realized like, oh, it still has >> and I realized like, oh, it still has control over me. control over me. control over me. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And I'm not saying everyone should open >> And I'm not saying everyone should open >> And I'm not saying everyone should open up publicly about what they've been up publicly about what they've been up publicly about what they've been through. I don't think that's necessary. through. I don't think that's necessary. through. I don't think that's necessary. >> But I felt like I was living a lie to my >> But I felt like I was living a lie to my >> But I felt like I was living a lie to my community that I was communicating about community that I was communicating about community that I was communicating about so many things, but I wasn't willing to so many things, but I wasn't willing to so many things, but I wasn't willing to open up about this. And for me, I felt open up about this. And for me, I felt open up about this. And for me, I felt like it wasn't maybe the final stage, like it wasn't maybe the final stage, like it wasn't maybe the final stage, but it was like a big stage of me on but it was like a big stage of me on but it was like a big stage of me on kind of learning how to heal because I kind of learning how to heal because I kind of learning how to heal because I was so afraid of the opinions of others. was so afraid of the opinions of others. was so afraid of the opinions of others. >> I was so afraid of what are people going >> I was so afraid of what are people going >> I was so afraid of what are people going to think about me? Are they going to to think about me? Are they going to to think about me? Are they going to stop listening to me? Are they not going stop listening to me? Are they not going stop listening to me? Are they not going to like me? Are they going to judge me? to like me? Are they going to judge me? to like me? Are they going to judge me? Whatever it was, I was living in fear, Whatever it was, I was living in fear, Whatever it was, I was living in fear, right? right? right? >> And that I I opened up about it publicly >> And that I I opened up about it publicly >> And that I I opened up about it publicly on my show. And I remember I recorded it on my show. And I remember I recorded it on my show. And I remember I recorded it and I waited months to post it. I was so and I waited months to post it. I was so and I waited months to post it. I was so afraid. But I was like, man, this fear afraid. But I was like, man, this fear afraid. But I was like, man, this fear is essentially holding me back. It's is essentially holding me back. It's is essentially holding me back. It's kind of controlling my my life. And so I kind of controlling my my life. And so I kind of controlling my my life. And so I I posted it and it's still 13 years I posted it and it's still 13 years I posted it and it's still 13 years later, the most downloaded episode I've later, the most downloaded episode I've later, the most downloaded episode I've ever done. ever done. ever done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A whole book came from that years later >> A whole book came from that years later >> A whole book came from that years later called The Mask of Masculinity because I called The Mask of Masculinity because I called The Mask of Masculinity because I had never seen a man open up about had never seen a man open up about had never seen a man open up about sexual abuse publicly. I'm sure it was sexual abuse publicly. I'm sure it was sexual abuse publicly. I'm sure it was out there, but I never witnessed like a out there, but I never witnessed like a out there, but I never witnessed like a >> a big athlete talking about this or >> a big athlete talking about this or >> a big athlete talking about this or >> it being a thing, >> it being a thing, >> it being a thing, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And then later, I think Oprah did a >> And then later, I think Oprah did a >> And then later, I think Oprah did a whole segment where all these men talked whole segment where all these men talked whole segment where all these men talked about sexual abuse, but I hadn't seen about sexual abuse, but I hadn't seen about sexual abuse, but I hadn't seen this. And so I was like, I felt like I this. And so I was like, I felt like I this. And so I was like, I felt like I was the only one had been through this was the only one had been through this was the only one had been through this because I never talked about it. I never because I never talked about it. I never because I never talked about it. I never heard anyone else talk about it. heard anyone else talk about it. heard anyone else talk about it. >> So it was the most terrifying thing even >> So it was the most terrifying thing even >> So it was the most terrifying thing even though I learned that one in six men though I learned that one in six men though I learned that one in six men have been sexually abused. one in four have been sexually abused. one in four have been sexually abused. one in four women have been sexually abused. And uh women have been sexually abused. And uh women have been sexually abused. And uh but for men, there's usually nowhere to but for men, there's usually nowhere to but for men, there's usually nowhere to talk about it. You know, it's horrible talk about it. You know, it's horrible talk about it. You know, it's horrible no matter who it happens to, no matter who it happens to, no matter who it happens to, but most men never open up about, never but most men never open up about, never but most men never open up about, never talk about, never have a safe space or talk about, never have a safe space or talk about, never have a safe space or feel like they're able to. And so for feel like they're able to. And so for feel like they're able to. And so for me, it was a very healing experience me, it was a very healing experience me, it was a very healing experience knowing that others then came to me as a knowing that others then came to me as a knowing that others then came to me as a safe space to share their story. safe space to share their story. safe space to share their story. >> Right. And I think that's where the >> Right. And I think that's where the >> Right. And I think that's where the meaning I think you were talking about meaning I think you were talking about meaning I think you were talking about the meaning came from for me was like oh the meaning came from for me was like oh the meaning came from for me was like oh me sharing it and now I get messages so me sharing it and now I get messages so me sharing it and now I get messages so frequently where people say you know I frequently where people say you know I frequently where people say you know I went through a similar thing that you went through a similar thing that you went through a similar thing that you went through in childhood and I already went through in childhood and I already went through in childhood and I already know what they're meaning. They might be know what they're meaning. They might be know what they're meaning. They might be afraid to say it afraid to say it afraid to say it >> right >> right >> right >> but they feel comfortable saying to me >> but they feel comfortable saying to me >> but they feel comfortable saying to me I've been through some similar stuff as I've been through some similar stuff as I've been through some similar stuff as you. see myself in you from what you've you. see myself in you from what you've you. see myself in you from what you've been through as a kid. And I already been through as a kid. And I already been through as a kid. And I already know that this man has probably never know that this man has probably never know that this man has probably never spoken about this and to be a sacred spoken about this and to be a sacred spoken about this and to be a sacred space for them in that moment so they space for them in that moment so they space for them in that moment so they can start hopefully the process of can start hopefully the process of can start hopefully the process of healing. And that's such a hallmark of healing. And that's such a hallmark of healing. And that's such a hallmark of grief and shame and trauma. You know, grief and shame and trauma. You know, grief and shame and trauma. You know, even I remember that in my childhood, I even I remember that in my childhood, I even I remember that in my childhood, I was sure I was the only one that had a was sure I was the only one that had a was sure I was the only one that had a parent die. parent die. parent die. >> Really? Wow. >> Really? Wow. >> Really? Wow. >> Like Well, I had a formula. my my >> Like Well, I had a formula. my my >> Like Well, I had a formula. my my friends parents were alive. friends parents were alive. friends parents were alive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean I you know and is that feeling of >> I mean I you know and is that feeling of >> I mean I you know and is that feeling of it's only me and I often get asked what it's only me and I often get asked what it's only me and I often get asked what my definition of healing is. And to me my definition of healing is. And to me my definition of healing is. And to me healing is when the event no longer healing is when the event no longer healing is when the event no longer controls you. controls you. controls you. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That's exactly what you did. You were no >> That's exactly what you did. You were no >> That's exactly what you did. You were no longer going to be controlled by that longer going to be controlled by that longer going to be controlled by that event. Mhm. And I realized event. Mhm. And I realized event. Mhm. And I realized I still was cuz I was afraid to talk I still was cuz I was afraid to talk I still was cuz I was afraid to talk about it to certain people, about it to certain people, about it to certain people, >> which is it controlling you. >> which is it controlling you. >> which is it controlling you. >> Exactly. So I was like, okay, I need to >> Exactly. So I was like, okay, I need to >> Exactly. So I was like, okay, I need to release this fully. I need to have so release this fully. I need to have so release this fully. I need to have so much courage, much courage, much courage, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And talk about this no matter what the >> And talk about this no matter what the >> And talk about this no matter what the consequences might be, consequences might be, consequences might be, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Like if everyone unfollows me, at least >> Like if everyone unfollows me, at least >> Like if everyone unfollows me, at least I'm free, I'm free, I'm free, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Because I didn't feel free. >> Because I didn't feel free. >> Because I didn't feel free. >> And listen, I mean, I remember seeing >> And listen, I mean, I remember seeing >> And listen, I mean, I remember seeing you years ago and seeing how you've you years ago and seeing how you've you years ago and seeing how you've changed. And you know the thing is you changed. And you know the thing is you changed. And you know the thing is you and I casually sitting here discussing and I casually sitting here discussing and I casually sitting here discussing sexual abuse that we both had. I promise sexual abuse that we both had. I promise sexual abuse that we both had. I promise you 10 15 I couldn't imagine like we're you 10 15 I couldn't imagine like we're you 10 15 I couldn't imagine like we're just going to that's just going to be a just going to that's just going to be a just going to that's just going to be a casual but it doesn't control us. casual but it doesn't control us. casual but it doesn't control us. >> No it doesn't >> No it doesn't >> No it doesn't >> it doesn't. >> it doesn't. >> it doesn't. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I want to get to triggers for a moment. >> I want to get to triggers for a moment. >> I want to get to triggers for a moment. So triggers, you know, we live in a So triggers, you know, we live in a So triggers, you know, we live in a world now world now world now >> that it's all about trigger warnings >> that it's all about trigger warnings >> that it's all about trigger warnings >> and it is a version of let me control >> and it is a version of let me control >> and it is a version of let me control the outside. My loved one died. I can't the outside. My loved one died. I can't the outside. My loved one died. I can't go by that part of town. She divorced go by that part of town. She divorced go by that part of town. She divorced me. I can't be with those. Whatever it me. I can't be with those. Whatever it me. I can't be with those. Whatever it is, we have those triggers. And the game is, we have those triggers. And the game is, we have those triggers. And the game now is sort of trigger warning. You now is sort of trigger warning. You now is sort of trigger warning. You know, please don't wear white shoes. know, please don't wear white shoes. know, please don't wear white shoes. That freaks me out. It triggers me and That freaks me out. It triggers me and That freaks me out. It triggers me and the problem is I'm under the illusion the problem is I'm under the illusion the problem is I'm under the illusion that the problem is out here and I'm that the problem is out here and I'm that the problem is out here and I'm trying to control my environment. You trying to control my environment. You trying to control my environment. You thought you were going to beat those thought you were going to beat those thought you were going to beat those guys up enough to control, you know, guys up enough to control, you know, guys up enough to control, you know, you're trying to fix it all on the you're trying to fix it all on the you're trying to fix it all on the outside. And the problem around that is outside. And the problem around that is outside. And the problem around that is when people come to me and say, "I don't when people come to me and say, "I don't when people come to me and say, "I don't know where to start with grief and know where to start with grief and know where to start with grief and trauma." I go, "What triggers you?" Your trauma." I go, "What triggers you?" Your trauma." I go, "What triggers you?" Your triggers are a map to your pain triggers are a map to your pain triggers are a map to your pain >> and they are a map to your healing, >> and they are a map to your healing, >> and they are a map to your healing, >> your freedom. >> your freedom. >> your freedom. >> We come with a map. Each of us has a >> We come with a map. Each of us has a >> We come with a map. Each of us has a map. Right now, I don't know what to map. Right now, I don't know what to map. Right now, I don't know what to work on. You got a map. You got a map. work on. You got a map. You got a map. work on. You got a map. You got a map. And for us to realize if I start going, And for us to realize if I start going, And for us to realize if I start going, all right, no one wear white, you know, all right, no one wear white, you know, all right, no one wear white, you know, tennis shoes. What's going to happen is tennis shoes. What's going to happen is tennis shoes. What's going to happen is I'm going to be in emotional avoidance I'm going to be in emotional avoidance I'm going to be in emotional avoidance and I'm teaching emotional estrangement. and I'm teaching emotional estrangement. and I'm teaching emotional estrangement. I'm going to begin to live in a world I'm going to begin to live in a world I'm going to begin to live in a world where nothing can upset me. And going where nothing can upset me. And going where nothing can upset me. And going back to what we talked about, I want to back to what we talked about, I want to back to what we talked about, I want to help people build capacity. help people build capacity. help people build capacity. Yeah, those those white shoes are fine. Yeah, those those white shoes are fine. Yeah, those those white shoes are fine. That it's it's good. Someone in white That it's it's good. Someone in white That it's it's good. Someone in white shoes years ago was a jerk, but I'm in shoes years ago was a jerk, but I'm in shoes years ago was a jerk, but I'm in the moment now and I can see you're not. the moment now and I can see you're not. the moment now and I can see you're not. >> So to understand, you know, sometimes >> So to understand, you know, sometimes >> So to understand, you know, sometimes when I was doing like events and when I was doing like events and when I was doing like events and conferences, someone would run out of conferences, someone would run out of conferences, someone would run out of the room and they'll go, "It's too the room and they'll go, "It's too the room and they'll go, "It's too painful in that room." And I'd go, "I painful in that room." And I'd go, "I painful in that room." And I'd go, "I get that. Take care of yourself. Leave get that. Take care of yourself. Leave get that. Take care of yourself. Leave if you need to." Don't have the illusion if you need to." Don't have the illusion if you need to." Don't have the illusion you're leaving the pain in the room. No, you're leaving the pain in the room. No, you're leaving the pain in the room. No, >> it's running out with you. >> it's running out with you. >> it's running out with you. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, the dance is there whenever you're >> So, the dance is there whenever you're >> So, the dance is there whenever you're ready. ready. ready. >> Until you face the trigger, you're >> Until you face the trigger, you're >> Until you face the trigger, you're always going to be, I guess, a prisoner always going to be, I guess, a prisoner always going to be, I guess, a prisoner of that trigger of that trigger of that trigger >> of that trigger. >> of that trigger. >> of that trigger. >> It's going to chase after you or be with >> It's going to chase after you or be with >> It's going to chase after you or be with you. No matter what your addiction you. No matter what your addiction you. No matter what your addiction you're chasing or or connected to or how you're chasing or or connected to or how you're chasing or or connected to or how much sex you have or how much sugar you much sex you have or how much sugar you much sex you have or how much sugar you eat or how much whatever drug of choice, eat or how much whatever drug of choice, eat or how much whatever drug of choice, how hard you work, how hard you work, how hard you work, >> you know, being a workaholic or whatever >> you know, being a workaholic or whatever >> you know, being a workaholic or whatever it is, it is, it is, >> that trigger and pain and trauma or >> that trigger and pain and trauma or >> that trigger and pain and trauma or whatever it is, the the association whatever it is, the the association whatever it is, the the association around that is going to continue to around that is going to continue to around that is going to continue to follow you, right? follow you, right? follow you, right? >> Until you turn around and face it. >> Until you turn around and face it. >> Until you turn around and face it. >> Well, here's my thought. Whether we're >> Well, here's my thought. Whether we're >> Well, here's my thought. Whether we're talking about triggers or feelings or talking about triggers or feelings or talking about triggers or feelings or grief, grief, grief, >> trauma, >> trauma, >> trauma, what we run from pursues us and what we what we run from pursues us and what we what we run from pursues us and what we face transforms us. face transforms us. face transforms us. >> You and I have been transformed by our >> You and I have been transformed by our >> You and I have been transformed by our pain. pain. pain. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And we also spent years running from it. >> And we also spent years running from it. >> And we also spent years running from it. >> Oh, man. Years. >> Oh, man. Years. >> Oh, man. Years. >> We we we know both roads. >> We we we know both roads. >> We we we know both roads. >> Years, man. And it was uh it's funny >> Years, man. And it was uh it's funny >> Years, man. And it was uh it's funny because I thought the more I because I thought the more I because I thought the more I accomplished, accomplished, accomplished, the better I would feel. But it was the better I would feel. But it was the better I would feel. But it was almost like the more I accomplished almost like the more I accomplished almost like the more I accomplished externally, the worse I felt because it externally, the worse I felt because it externally, the worse I felt because it didn't take the pain away. didn't take the pain away. didn't take the pain away. >> Success is a great deodorant. >> Success is a great deodorant. >> Success is a great deodorant. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Kind of covers it all up, you know. >> Kind of covers it all up, you know. >> Kind of covers it all up, you know. >> But it's even stinkier when it's like >> But it's even stinkier when it's like >> But it's even stinkier when it's like [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and we know we smell. and we know we smell. and we know we smell. >> Yeah. And it's like the shame grows >> Yeah. And it's like the shame grows >> Yeah. And it's like the shame grows because you're like, because you're like, because you're like, >> "Oh, I still don't feel like I'm good >> "Oh, I still don't feel like I'm good >> "Oh, I still don't feel like I'm good enough. I still don't feel like I matter enough. I still don't feel like I matter enough. I still don't feel like I matter or I'm worthy even though I'm or I'm worthy even though I'm or I'm worthy even though I'm accomplishing or I have whatever marker accomplishing or I have whatever marker accomplishing or I have whatever marker to say that I'm accomplish something and to say that I'm accomplish something and to say that I'm accomplish something and I still don't feel lovable or I still I still don't feel lovable or I still I still don't feel lovable or I still don't feel enough. It's like what is don't feel enough. It's like what is don't feel enough. It's like what is that in us when we chase something so that in us when we chase something so that in us when we chase something so big we accomplish it and we still don't big we accomplish it and we still don't big we accomplish it and we still don't feel enough. What is that? because we're feel enough. What is that? because we're feel enough. What is that? because we're trying to outrun our past, our feelings, trying to outrun our past, our feelings, trying to outrun our past, our feelings, and we think, "Oh, that award, that and we think, "Oh, that award, that and we think, "Oh, that award, that game, that success, that amount of money game, that success, that amount of money game, that success, that amount of money in the bank, whatever it is." And and it in the bank, whatever it is." And and it in the bank, whatever it is." And and it can even be, you know, all the things we can even be, you know, all the things we can even be, you know, all the things we talk about, drug, sex, D. It can be talk about, drug, sex, D. It can be talk about, drug, sex, D. It can be success, it can be service, it can be, success, it can be service, it can be, success, it can be service, it can be, you know, there's plenty of people I you know, there's plenty of people I you know, there's plenty of people I know that are like these amazing know that are like these amazing know that are like these amazing volunteers who couldn't take care of volunteers who couldn't take care of volunteers who couldn't take care of themselves if they tried, themselves if they tried, themselves if they tried, >> you know, and the reality is >> you know, and the reality is >> you know, and the reality is to allow ourselves to say it to one to allow ourselves to say it to one to allow ourselves to say it to one other person and then all of a sudden we other person and then all of a sudden we other person and then all of a sudden we just need someone to go, "Oh, you're just need someone to go, "Oh, you're just need someone to go, "Oh, you're still okay. still okay. still okay. >> You're not the first." And >> You're not the first." And >> You're not the first." And unfortunately, you're not going to be unfortunately, you're not going to be unfortunately, you're not going to be the last. the last. the last. >> And we all have struggles. Yours looks >> And we all have struggles. Yours looks >> And we all have struggles. Yours looks different than mine, but we assume the different than mine, but we assume the different than mine, but we assume the people we see on social media or TV or people we see on social media or TV or people we see on social media or TV or in sports, they don't have them. And in sports, they don't have them. And in sports, they don't have them. And then we see something go wrong and we're then we see something go wrong and we're then we see something go wrong and we're like, "What? How can that be?" like, "What? How can that be?" like, "What? How can that be?" >> Yeah. They have all the money and >> Yeah. They have all the money and >> Yeah. They have all the money and success. success. success. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. And I'll tell you, there's a a >> Yeah. And I'll tell you, there's a a >> Yeah. And I'll tell you, there's a a line that Freud said. Freud was once line that Freud said. Freud was once line that Freud said. Freud was once asked, "Would he rather work with asked, "Would he rather work with asked, "Would he rather work with someone who's poor or someone who's someone who's poor or someone who's someone who's poor or someone who's rich?" And he said, "Always rich." rich?" And he said, "Always rich." rich?" And he said, "Always rich." >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> And they said, "Why?" And he said, >> And they said, "Why?" And he said, >> And they said, "Why?" And he said, "Because the rich person knows that "Because the rich person knows that "Because the rich person knows that happiness is no longer in the money." happiness is no longer in the money." happiness is no longer in the money." >> The poor person, >> The poor person, >> The poor person, >> I have to convince the poor person >> I have to convince the poor person >> I have to convince the poor person >> thinks so. When I make money, I'm going >> thinks so. When I make money, I'm going >> thinks so. When I make money, I'm going to be happy. to be happy. to be happy. >> It's going to be the key to everything. >> It's going to be the key to everything. >> It's going to be the key to everything. It's going to be the key to that hole, It's going to be the key to that hole, It's going to be the key to that hole, the emptiness, all of that inside of us. the emptiness, all of that inside of us. the emptiness, all of that inside of us. >> I know that feeling, too. Once I started >> I know that feeling, too. Once I started >> I know that feeling, too. Once I started making money, making money, making money, >> it didn't take the pain away. >> it didn't take the pain away. >> it didn't take the pain away. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It didn't make me feel like I I healed >> It didn't make me feel like I I healed >> It didn't make me feel like I I healed the the hurt boy in me or the the hurt boy in me or the the hurt boy in me or >> I was less angry or frustrated or >> I was less angry or frustrated or >> I was less angry or frustrated or resentful. resentful. resentful. >> But you couldn't have told that to your >> But you couldn't have told that to your >> But you couldn't have told that to your poor unsuccessful self growing up. You poor unsuccessful self growing up. You poor unsuccessful self growing up. You know, know, know, >> I was like, "This is going to solve my >> I was like, "This is going to solve my >> I was like, "This is going to solve my problems." problems." problems." >> It doesn't solve it. Almost amplifies >> It doesn't solve it. Almost amplifies >> It doesn't solve it. Almost amplifies your problems. your problems. your problems. >> It does. The stakes become higher. I'll >> It does. The stakes become higher. I'll >> It does. The stakes become higher. I'll speak from personal experience. When I speak from personal experience. When I speak from personal experience. When I didn't feel like I was in a healthy didn't feel like I was in a healthy didn't feel like I was in a healthy space internally and I had money, I I I space internally and I had money, I I I space internally and I had money, I I I was heightened like anxiety around me was heightened like anxiety around me was heightened like anxiety around me and I didn't want to lose it and I felt and I didn't want to lose it and I felt and I didn't want to lose it and I felt like people were trying to take it or or like people were trying to take it or or like people were trying to take it or or use me in some way. It was like, oh, now use me in some way. It was like, oh, now use me in some way. It was like, oh, now that they know that I've made some that they know that I've made some that they know that I've made some money, are they really my friend? It's money, are they really my friend? It's money, are they really my friend? It's all these other interpretations all these other interpretations all these other interpretations around the triggers that I still had around the triggers that I still had around the triggers that I still had >> because think about here we have >> because think about here we have >> because think about here we have unlovableness, unfairness. unlovableness, unfairness. unlovableness, unfairness. No one will love me. I'm not worthy. Da No one will love me. I'm not worthy. Da No one will love me. I'm not worthy. Da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d if I just get money that's gonna help. if I just get money that's gonna help. if I just get money that's gonna help. And we get money and then we go, they're And we get money and then we go, they're And we get money and then we go, they're still here. still here. still here. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> they're all still here. The success, the >> they're all still here. The success, the >> they're all still here. The success, the money, the whatever didn't do it. And money, the whatever didn't do it. And money, the whatever didn't do it. And that's when you need someone to work that's when you need someone to work that's when you need someone to work with you who's going to go, all right, with you who's going to go, all right, with you who's going to go, all right, since you've done all this, since you've done all this, since you've done all this, >> could we just talk about those? Gosh, >> could we just talk about those? Gosh, >> could we just talk about those? Gosh, of all the people you've worked with in of all the people you've worked with in of all the people you've worked with in grief groups and from high-profile grief groups and from high-profile grief groups and from high-profile individuals to people who are completely individuals to people who are completely individuals to people who are completely unknown going through their own unknown going through their own unknown going through their own experiences, experiences, experiences, what is the number one thing that most what is the number one thing that most what is the number one thing that most people struggle with within themselves people struggle with within themselves people struggle with within themselves that they believe they're not what? that they believe they're not what? that they believe they're not what? >> Worthy, whole. They're not worthy and >> Worthy, whole. They're not worthy and >> Worthy, whole. They're not worthy and they're not whole. Why are so many Why they're not whole. Why are so many Why they're not whole. Why are so many Why do so many people believe they're not do so many people believe they're not do so many people believe they're not worthy and they don't feel like they're worthy and they don't feel like they're worthy and they don't feel like they're whole? whole? whole? >> Because I think we're raised >> Because I think we're raised >> Because I think we're raised to do more, to be more, to become to do more, to be more, to become to do more, to be more, to become someone. someone. someone. Forgetting you are someone. Like your Forgetting you are someone. Like your Forgetting you are someone. Like your worth is not by the doing. Your worth is worth is not by the doing. Your worth is worth is not by the doing. Your worth is just because you're here on the planet. just because you're here on the planet. just because you're here on the planet. Money is not bad or good. It's kind of Money is not bad or good. It's kind of Money is not bad or good. It's kind of neutral. Success isn't bad or good. It's neutral. Success isn't bad or good. It's neutral. Success isn't bad or good. It's neutral. How does someone separate, you neutral. How does someone separate, you neutral. How does someone separate, you know, being in a relationship and know, being in a relationship and know, being in a relationship and needing to provide for that relationship needing to provide for that relationship needing to provide for that relationship and that family versus not performing and that family versus not performing and that family versus not performing well or not getting the the results they well or not getting the the results they well or not getting the the results they wanted? How do you how do you not wanted? How do you how do you not wanted? How do you how do you not interpret, oh, I'm not good at this yet, interpret, oh, I'm not good at this yet, interpret, oh, I'm not good at this yet, but I'm still a worthy person, right? but I'm still a worthy person, right? but I'm still a worthy person, right? >> How do you how do you navigate both >> How do you how do you navigate both >> How do you how do you navigate both those worlds? Like, I'm not performing, those worlds? Like, I'm not performing, those worlds? Like, I'm not performing, I'm failing, I'm struggling here, but I'm failing, I'm struggling here, but I'm failing, I'm struggling here, but I'm still whole. How do you know that? I'm still whole. How do you know that? I'm still whole. How do you know that? >> Hopefully, we have people in our life >> Hopefully, we have people in our life >> Hopefully, we have people in our life that love us no matter what. I know a that love us no matter what. I know a that love us no matter what. I know a million people that I've a million million people that I've a million million people that I've a million exaggeration, but a lot of people over exaggeration, but a lot of people over exaggeration, but a lot of people over the years who like literally are the years who like literally are the years who like literally are outdoing with someone at home going, I outdoing with someone at home going, I outdoing with someone at home going, I wish you were home more. wish you were home more. wish you were home more. >> And they're like, well, when I get >> And they're like, well, when I get >> And they're like, well, when I get successful, I'll be home more. And I successful, I'll be home more. And I successful, I'll be home more. And I always say if you're not home more now, always say if you're not home more now, always say if you're not home more now, when you get success, you're you're when you get success, you're you're when you get success, you're you're you're going to be gone even more. you're going to be gone even more. you're going to be gone even more. >> Then it's just going to be another >> Then it's just going to be another >> Then it's just going to be another country you're going to instead of country you're going to instead of country you're going to instead of across town. It's about realizing this across town. It's about realizing this across town. It's about realizing this is what matters. Our loved ones matter, is what matters. Our loved ones matter, is what matters. Our loved ones matter, >> you know, to really understand this is >> you know, to really understand this is >> you know, to really understand this is all we got. all we got. all we got. It's just a monopoly game. It's just a monopoly game. It's just a monopoly game. >> It's a monopoly game. Play well. I'll >> It's a monopoly game. Play well. I'll >> It's a monopoly game. Play well. I'll talk strategy with you around playing talk strategy with you around playing talk strategy with you around playing well, but let's not believe we're the well, but let's not believe we're the well, but let's not believe we're the game. game. game. >> We're just playing the game. >> We're just playing the game. >> We're just playing the game. >> We're not the voices in our head. We're >> We're not the voices in our head. We're >> We're not the voices in our head. We're the one listening to them. And sometimes the one listening to them. And sometimes the one listening to them. And sometimes we might not want to listen to them. So, we might not want to listen to them. So, we might not want to listen to them. So, well, well, well, >> Mhm. If someone's in a relationship with >> Mhm. If someone's in a relationship with >> Mhm. If someone's in a relationship with a and they've been married for a while a and they've been married for a while a and they've been married for a while and they're, you know, they both got and they're, you know, they both got and they're, you know, they both got married for good intentions, but 5, 10, married for good intentions, but 5, 10, married for good intentions, but 5, 10, 20 years down the road, they start 20 years down the road, they start 20 years down the road, they start waking up to some of this information waking up to some of this information waking up to some of this information and they start going through a and they start going through a and they start going through a self-discovery, start processing grief, self-discovery, start processing grief, self-discovery, start processing grief, start healing some, but they realize start healing some, but they realize start healing some, but they realize that their partner that their partner that their partner is stuck in the past, stuck in um is stuck in the past, stuck in um is stuck in the past, stuck in um unattended grief. unattended grief. unattended grief. and they're triggered constantly. and they're triggered constantly. and they're triggered constantly. They're reactive a lot. They're not They're reactive a lot. They're not They're reactive a lot. They're not willing to speak or open up about their willing to speak or open up about their willing to speak or open up about their past. They don't want to go there to the past. They don't want to go there to the past. They don't want to go there to the hurt places. They have these unresolved hurt places. They have these unresolved hurt places. They have these unresolved feelings that they stuff and then anger feelings that they stuff and then anger feelings that they stuff and then anger comes out at different times or control comes out at different times or control comes out at different times or control comes out. What can that person do comes out. What can that person do comes out. What can that person do to not obviously they can't fix their to not obviously they can't fix their to not obviously they can't fix their partner. They can't change their partner. They can't change their partner. They can't change their partner, but how can they meet their partner, but how can they meet their partner, but how can they meet their partner in a place where they can still partner in a place where they can still partner in a place where they can still have a beautiful relationship even if have a beautiful relationship even if have a beautiful relationship even if that partner doesn't want to change or that partner doesn't want to change or that partner doesn't want to change or address the unresolved grief? address the unresolved grief? address the unresolved grief? >> Invitations and boundaries. >> Invitations and boundaries. >> Invitations and boundaries. >> What if they don't like boundaries? >> What if they don't like boundaries? >> What if they don't like boundaries? >> Well, well, if they don't like >> Well, well, if they don't like >> Well, well, if they don't like boundaries, you're not doing boundaries boundaries, you're not doing boundaries boundaries, you're not doing boundaries for you for them. You're doing for you for them. You're doing for you for them. You're doing boundaries for yourself. boundaries for yourself. boundaries for yourself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The people who cross boundaries are >> The people who cross boundaries are >> The people who cross boundaries are ourselves. M ourselves. M ourselves. M >> you can't cross my boundaries. I can >> you can't cross my boundaries. I can >> you can't cross my boundaries. I can only break my boundaries only break my boundaries only break my boundaries >> by allowing it to happen. >> by allowing it to happen. >> by allowing it to happen. >> Yeah. By allowing it. Don't go over >> Yeah. By allowing it. Don't go over >> Yeah. By allowing it. Don't go over there. I told you. I'm going to lecture there. I told you. I'm going to lecture there. I told you. I'm going to lecture you. No. Hey, dude. If you want to be in you. No. Hey, dude. If you want to be in you. No. Hey, dude. If you want to be in my presence, we don't do that. my presence, we don't do that. my presence, we don't do that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, there has to be a gentle, you know, >> So, there has to be a gentle, you know, >> So, there has to be a gentle, you know, I'm learning. I'm growing. I'm changing I'm learning. I'm growing. I'm changing I'm learning. I'm growing. I'm changing to your wife, to your husband. Uh, I'd to your wife, to your husband. Uh, I'd to your wife, to your husband. Uh, I'd love you to come do some of these things love you to come do some of these things love you to come do some of these things with me. Could we go to therapy? Lots with me. Could we go to therapy? Lots with me. Could we go to therapy? Lots and lots of invitations. and lots of invitations. and lots of invitations. at a certain point we have to go they're at a certain point we have to go they're at a certain point we have to go they're different from me different from me different from me >> and is that still workable you know in >> and is that still workable you know in >> and is that still workable you know in the old days I think in relationships we the old days I think in relationships we the old days I think in relationships we had this belief that we should be had this belief that we should be had this belief that we should be exactly the same we both need to love exactly the same we both need to love exactly the same we both need to love this we both have to we can't have this we both have to we can't have this we both have to we can't have different interest or that spells different interest or that spells different interest or that spells trouble well you know what maybe you do trouble well you know what maybe you do trouble well you know what maybe you do like those things and I'm going to like like those things and I'm going to like like those things and I'm going to like love that you're you and I'm going to do love that you're you and I'm going to do love that you're you and I'm going to do these things and we can have our these things and we can have our these things and we can have our together things and we can have some together things and we can have some together things and we can have some separate interest and that's okay. separate interest and that's okay. separate interest and that's okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there's a time some people could >> And there's a time some people could >> And there's a time some people could outgrow a relationship. I just want to outgrow a relationship. I just want to outgrow a relationship. I just want to make sure they've really make sure they've really make sure they've really >> done the invitations and done the work >> done the invitations and done the work >> done the invitations and done the work and things like that. and things like that. and things like that. >> Yeah. You wrote that you can only avoid >> Yeah. You wrote that you can only avoid >> Yeah. You wrote that you can only avoid grief by avoiding love. What do you mean grief by avoiding love. What do you mean grief by avoiding love. What do you mean by that? by that? by that? >> And avoiding life. >> And avoiding life. >> And avoiding life. And avoiding life. You know, And avoiding life. You know, And avoiding life. You know, I I I'll tell you some people, you know, I I I'll tell you some people, you know, I I I'll tell you some people, you know, I've heard your son dying must have been I've heard your son dying must have been I've heard your son dying must have been the worst tragedy. the worst tragedy. the worst tragedy. It's actually not It's actually not It's actually not >> really >> really >> really >> the worst tragedy would have been to >> the worst tragedy would have been to >> the worst tragedy would have been to have come to this world and not met him. have come to this world and not met him. have come to this world and not met him. >> My gosh. >> My gosh. >> My gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's the worst. >> That's the worst. >> That's the worst. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I got to know him. M >> I got to know him. M >> I got to know him. M >> and I get to know all these people in my >> and I get to know all these people in my >> and I get to know all these people in my life now and you know it's one of the life now and you know it's one of the life now and you know it's one of the things that I think so I ran into a things that I think so I ran into a things that I think so I ran into a neighbor who I hadn't seen actually was neighbor who I hadn't seen actually was neighbor who I hadn't seen actually was my boss 30 years ago and she said to me, my boss 30 years ago and she said to me, my boss 30 years ago and she said to me, "Oh my gosh, you live so close. I'd be "Oh my gosh, you live so close. I'd be "Oh my gosh, you live so close. I'd be friends but it would be too depressing friends but it would be too depressing friends but it would be too depressing to be friends with you." to be friends with you." to be friends with you." >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> And I said, "You'd be surprised. My life >> And I said, "You'd be surprised. My life >> And I said, "You'd be surprised. My life isn't that depressing. I'm actually a isn't that depressing. I'm actually a isn't that depressing. I'm actually a really funloving person and I have a really funloving person and I have a really funloving person and I have a great time in life and I think great time in life and I think great time in life and I think >> just because she says you you speak >> just because she says you you speak >> just because she says you you speak about grief all the time or something. about grief all the time or something. about grief all the time or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. She's like okay that's you >> Yeah. Yeah. She's like okay that's you >> Yeah. Yeah. She's like okay that's you know I must want to sit around going know I must want to sit around going know I must want to sit around going seen any good deaths lately? I don't seen any good deaths lately? I don't seen any good deaths lately? I don't know what she imagined something crazy. know what she imagined something crazy. know what she imagined something crazy. But it's that idea that But it's that idea that But it's that idea that I no longer have that those needs that I no longer have that those needs that I no longer have that those needs that pick me that let's do that. Let's find pick me that let's do that. Let's find pick me that let's do that. Let's find our way like that. Life is okay. And do our way like that. Life is okay. And do our way like that. Life is okay. And do you want to walk together? Let's walk you want to walk together? Let's walk you want to walk together? Let's walk for a while. Oh, you want to go? All for a while. Oh, you want to go? All for a while. Oh, you want to go? All right. I'm going to go this. I mean, right. I'm going to go this. I mean, right. I'm going to go this. I mean, it's just becomes this adventure we're it's just becomes this adventure we're it's just becomes this adventure we're on. on. on. >> Yes. And one of the things that I've >> Yes. And one of the things that I've >> Yes. And one of the things that I've learned is because I see so much death, learned is because I see so much death, learned is because I see so much death, it doesn't make me go, "What's the it doesn't make me go, "What's the it doesn't make me go, "What's the point?" Instead, it makes me go, "Let me point?" Instead, it makes me go, "Let me point?" Instead, it makes me go, "Let me take this in." You know, like in the take this in." You know, like in the take this in." You know, like in the worst scenario, worst scenario, worst scenario, today could be my last day. today could be my last day. today could be my last day. >> I mean, I'm with people all the time >> I mean, I'm with people all the time >> I mean, I'm with people all the time that were doing something and then they that were doing something and then they that were doing something and then they died. died. died. If today's my last day, I have a couple If today's my last day, I have a couple If today's my last day, I have a couple of choices. of choices. of choices. If I haven't been current, I can dart If I haven't been current, I can dart If I haven't been current, I can dart out of here and start saying, "I out of here and start saying, "I out of here and start saying, "I apologize. I'm sorry." and make amends apologize. I'm sorry." and make amends apologize. I'm sorry." and make amends and blah blah blah. But if I've been and blah blah blah. But if I've been and blah blah blah. But if I've been current, I can go, "Wow, if today was my current, I can go, "Wow, if today was my current, I can go, "Wow, if today was my last day, last day, last day, this is my last podcast. this is my last podcast. this is my last podcast. >> Wow, let me go deeper. Let me not waste >> Wow, let me go deeper. Let me not waste >> Wow, let me go deeper. Let me not waste this moment. Let me not waste their this moment. Let me not waste their this moment. Let me not waste their time. Let me truly show up for life and time. Let me truly show up for life and time. Let me truly show up for life and I don't die today and I get to have a I don't die today and I get to have a I don't die today and I get to have a great day great day great day because someone's going to die. because someone's going to die. because someone's going to die. Someone's going to divorce. A breakup's Someone's going to divorce. A breakup's Someone's going to divorce. A breakup's going to happen. I mean, going to going to happen. I mean, going to going to happen. I mean, going to happen. And let me be present for the happen. And let me be present for the happen. And let me be present for the moments when it does and the moments moments when it does and the moments moments when it does and the moments when it doesn't. when it doesn't. when it doesn't. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How many of us have ruined good moments >> How many of us have ruined good moments >> How many of us have ruined good moments when nothing bad was happening when nothing bad was happening when nothing bad was happening >> because of all the moments we didn't >> because of all the moments we didn't >> because of all the moments we didn't attend to? Right. How does someone know attend to? Right. How does someone know attend to? Right. How does someone know the difference of them going through the difference of them going through the difference of them going through grief or being depressed? grief or being depressed? grief or being depressed? >> You know, it's interesting. I always say >> You know, it's interesting. I always say >> You know, it's interesting. I always say that is really a question for a that is really a question for a that is really a question for a psychiatrist. And I encourage people to psychiatrist. And I encourage people to psychiatrist. And I encourage people to see a psychiatrist who knows grief. see a psychiatrist who knows grief. see a psychiatrist who knows grief. >> Like we even have a grief educator >> Like we even have a grief educator >> Like we even have a grief educator certificate program. And I'm so proud certificate program. And I'm so proud certificate program. And I'm so proud when psychiatrists come through because when psychiatrists come through because when psychiatrists come through because you can become a psychiatrist, a you can become a psychiatrist, a you can become a psychiatrist, a therapist, a coach without one hour of therapist, a coach without one hour of therapist, a coach without one hour of grief education. grief education. grief education. >> Crazy. And so it's important to know >> Crazy. And so it's important to know >> Crazy. And so it's important to know there's different markers. You know, there's different markers. You know, there's different markers. You know, when you're clinically depressed, when you're clinically depressed, when you're clinically depressed, that's one state that is very different that's one state that is very different that's one state that is very different from the sadness of grief. But we also from the sadness of grief. But we also from the sadness of grief. But we also live in a world that we don't use the live in a world that we don't use the live in a world that we don't use the word sad anymore. Oh my gosh, Lewis, we word sad anymore. Oh my gosh, Lewis, we word sad anymore. Oh my gosh, Lewis, we were so depressed at lunch yesterday, were so depressed at lunch yesterday, were so depressed at lunch yesterday, but you're not now. but you're not now. but you're not now. >> Did you go through a drive-thru >> Did you go through a drive-thru >> Did you go through a drive-thru depression center? What did you do? depression center? What did you do? depression center? What did you do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, we don't go and think about it >> I mean, we don't go and think about it >> I mean, we don't go and think about it this way. If someone said, "I'm so this way. If someone said, "I'm so this way. If someone said, "I'm so depressed my sister died. Go see a depressed my sister died. Go see a depressed my sister died. Go see a doctor. You need to get did something doctor. You need to get did something doctor. You need to get did something done about that." But if I said, "I'm so done about that." But if I said, "I'm so done about that." But if I said, "I'm so sad my sister died." Of course you are. sad my sister died." Of course you are. sad my sister died." Of course you are. That's your sister. Notice there's less That's your sister. Notice there's less That's your sister. Notice there's less to fix when we allow our feelings. to fix when we allow our feelings. to fix when we allow our feelings. >> But depression's very serious. See a >> But depression's very serious. See a >> But depression's very serious. See a psychiatrist. A good psychiatrist can psychiatrist. A good psychiatrist can psychiatrist. A good psychiatrist can tell you grief versus clinical tell you grief versus clinical tell you grief versus clinical depression. depression. depression. >> Yeah. For anyone that feels afraid of >> Yeah. For anyone that feels afraid of >> Yeah. For anyone that feels afraid of the future, whether it be their the future, whether it be their the future, whether it be their relationship, their health, the economy, relationship, their health, the economy, relationship, their health, the economy, wars, any number of things that could wars, any number of things that could wars, any number of things that could cause uncertainty or fear in someone, cause uncertainty or fear in someone, cause uncertainty or fear in someone, how can they use this information that how can they use this information that how can they use this information that you have in your work, in your books you have in your work, in your books you have in your work, in your books to navigate the uncertainties of the to navigate the uncertainties of the to navigate the uncertainties of the world for the future, the the world for the future, the the world for the future, the the uncertainties of loss of anything. uncertainties of loss of anything. uncertainties of loss of anything. So the biggest thing that I think about So the biggest thing that I think about So the biggest thing that I think about is anxiety, fear of the future. Really is anxiety, fear of the future. Really is anxiety, fear of the future. Really challenging challenging challenging and you're in the future. Now why are we and you're in the future. Now why are we and you're in the future. Now why are we in the future? Because something bad has in the future? Because something bad has in the future? Because something bad has happened in our past. happened in our past. happened in our past. We are not fearful. We are predicting. We are not fearful. We are predicting. We are not fearful. We are predicting. We are trying to manage what's going to We are trying to manage what's going to We are trying to manage what's going to happen here because if the hits the fan, happen here because if the hits the fan, happen here because if the hits the fan, I need a plan. That's why we're I need a plan. That's why we're I need a plan. That's why we're catastrophizers. We're this, we're that, catastrophizers. We're this, we're that, catastrophizers. We're this, we're that, all that. We're protectors. all that. We're protectors. all that. We're protectors. And if you're in the future, I have And if you're in the future, I have And if you're in the future, I have enormous compassion because something enormous compassion because something enormous compassion because something bad happened. That's asking to be bad happened. That's asking to be bad happened. That's asking to be attended to. attended to. attended to. >> Yeah. To prepare. >> Yeah. To prepare. >> Yeah. To prepare. >> And and that past needs attention. >> And and that past needs attention. >> And and that past needs attention. And if you're in your future, do you And if you're in your future, do you And if you're in your future, do you know what? You can't be know what? You can't be know what? You can't be >> in your present >> in your present >> in your present >> and loving and connecting. >> and loving and connecting. >> and loving and connecting. >> If love and connection connection helps >> If love and connection connection helps >> If love and connection connection helps us us us and we're in our future, and we're in our future, and we're in our future, we're in trouble. So many times I'll be we're in trouble. So many times I'll be we're in trouble. So many times I'll be working with someone who's saying working with someone who's saying working with someone who's saying they're really anxious and they go out they're really anxious and they go out they're really anxious and they go out and they see their friends and it and they see their friends and it and they see their friends and it doesn't work out well and I'll go, "What doesn't work out well and I'll go, "What doesn't work out well and I'll go, "What happens?" Well, I sit down with my happens?" Well, I sit down with my happens?" Well, I sit down with my friend. I tell them that how anxious I friend. I tell them that how anxious I friend. I tell them that how anxious I am and I go and then eventually they say am and I go and then eventually they say am and I go and then eventually they say nice to see me and leave. nice to see me and leave. nice to see me and leave. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I go, "So, here's the plan." >> And I go, "So, here's the plan." >> And I go, "So, here's the plan." >> You got to go. We're going to be >> You got to go. We're going to be >> You got to go. We're going to be together for an hour today. together for an hour today. together for an hour today. I'd like to take a chunk of that and I'd like to take a chunk of that and I'd like to take a chunk of that and just tell you what's going on with me just tell you what's going on with me just tell you what's going on with me >> and then really keep me accountable. And >> and then really keep me accountable. And >> and then really keep me accountable. And then I want to hear what's going on with then I want to hear what's going on with then I want to hear what's going on with you. and I want to be really present for you. and I want to be really present for you. and I want to be really present for you too. you too. you too. Then we suddenly have a connection and Then we suddenly have a connection and Then we suddenly have a connection and instead of one person living in the instead of one person living in the instead of one person living in the future, two people have brought future, two people have brought future, two people have brought themselves into the present themselves into the present themselves into the present changes everything. changes everything. changes everything. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Loving connection only can happen in the >> Loving connection only can happen in the >> Loving connection only can happen in the now. now. now. >> If someone is always stressed and >> If someone is always stressed and >> If someone is always stressed and worrying about the future, what is that worrying about the future, what is that worrying about the future, what is that signaling about that person? Is it that signaling about that person? Is it that signaling about that person? Is it that they're they have a pain from the past they're they have a pain from the past they're they have a pain from the past that's unresolved? thing from the past that's unresolved? thing from the past that's unresolved? thing from the past >> really >> really >> really >> that's asking for their attention >> that's asking for their attention >> that's asking for their attention >> and they're playing it out that way. >> and they're playing it out that way. >> and they're playing it out that way. >> Listen, and it doesn't mean you can't be >> Listen, and it doesn't mean you can't be >> Listen, and it doesn't mean you can't be like really productive and really like really productive and really like really productive and really successful and really doing amazing successful and really doing amazing successful and really doing amazing things in the world. It's how do we do things in the world. It's how do we do things in the world. It's how do we do it? I mean, I've been it? I mean, I've been it? I mean, I've been successfully doing things in unhealthy successfully doing things in unhealthy successfully doing things in unhealthy ways and in healthy ways and it feels ways and in healthy ways and it feels ways and in healthy ways and it feels different on the inside different on the inside different on the inside >> and I know that. >> and I know that. >> and I know that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I I mean we're all struggling. I And I I mean we're all struggling. I And I I mean we're all struggling. I mean, believe me, I I'm sure I could say mean, believe me, I I'm sure I could say mean, believe me, I I'm sure I could say it about two. Like, whatever you think, it about two. Like, whatever you think, it about two. Like, whatever you think, we got stuff going on. we got stuff going on. we got stuff going on. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> we always do. And if we don't today, >> we always do. And if we don't today, >> we always do. And if we don't today, it's coming tomorrow and we'll be able it's coming tomorrow and we'll be able it's coming tomorrow and we'll be able to manage it. to manage it. to manage it. What's your biggest fear for humanity What's your biggest fear for humanity What's your biggest fear for humanity over the next 10 years based on what over the next 10 years based on what over the next 10 years based on what we've been through with COVID and wars we've been through with COVID and wars we've been through with COVID and wars over the last six, seven years and the over the last six, seven years and the over the last six, seven years and the predictions of the future with all the predictions of the future with all the predictions of the future with all the changes of AI and financial currencies changes of AI and financial currencies changes of AI and financial currencies and wars and and and conflict? What is and wars and and and conflict? What is and wars and and and conflict? What is your worry on humanity's your worry on humanity's your worry on humanity's ability to be loving and in the moment? ability to be loving and in the moment? ability to be loving and in the moment? >> We will give away our power. >> We will give away our power. >> We will give away our power. We'll we'll give away our power whether We'll we'll give away our power whether We'll we'll give away our power whether it's to our government leaders, whatever it's to our government leaders, whatever it's to our government leaders, whatever it is, we're going to give our power it is, we're going to give our power it is, we're going to give our power away or to AI. Listen, I got an AI. I away or to AI. Listen, I got an AI. I away or to AI. Listen, I got an AI. I really really really made sure it didn't say made sure it didn't say made sure it didn't say generic stuff that you can find generic stuff that you can find generic stuff that you can find anywhere. I created it just from my anywhere. I created it just from my anywhere. I created it just from my work. It's better for the environment. work. It's better for the environment. work. It's better for the environment. It helps people in so many ways. Look, I It helps people in so many ways. Look, I It helps people in so many ways. Look, I can be up in the middle of the night if can be up in the middle of the night if can be up in the middle of the night if I happen to be scrolling and seeing I happen to be scrolling and seeing I happen to be scrolling and seeing there's a woman in Serbia whose child there's a woman in Serbia whose child there's a woman in Serbia whose child just died. I can get on WhatsApp and just died. I can get on WhatsApp and just died. I can get on WhatsApp and call and talk to her in Serbia for an call and talk to her in Serbia for an call and talk to her in Serbia for an hour right after her child died. Can't hour right after her child died. Can't hour right after her child died. Can't do that often. AI do that often. AI do that often. AI helps me help people at 3:00 a.m. helps me help people at 3:00 a.m. helps me help people at 3:00 a.m. because grief's 24 hours a day. Mhm. because grief's 24 hours a day. Mhm. because grief's 24 hours a day. Mhm. >> So that's a really wonderful thing about >> So that's a really wonderful thing about >> So that's a really wonderful thing about AI if it's curated and safely done. On AI if it's curated and safely done. On AI if it's curated and safely done. On the other hand, the other hand, the other hand, you know, it can take over the world and you know, it can take over the world and you know, it can take over the world and you know, we're in an Arnold you know, we're in an Arnold you know, we're in an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie because we gave our Schwarzenegger movie because we gave our Schwarzenegger movie because we gave our power away to the people who are power away to the people who are power away to the people who are managing it. managing it. managing it. >> Find your own power and use it to change >> Find your own power and use it to change >> Find your own power and use it to change something. If you could something. If you could something. If you could prescribe that every person watching and prescribe that every person watching and prescribe that every person watching and listening master one skill to have listening master one skill to have listening master one skill to have more love, harmony, peace for the future more love, harmony, peace for the future more love, harmony, peace for the future no matter what happens as they're going no matter what happens as they're going no matter what happens as they're going to go through different challenges in to go through different challenges in to go through different challenges in life. They're going to go through life. They're going to go through life. They're going to go through different grief and losses and unmet um different grief and losses and unmet um different grief and losses and unmet um changes. changes. changes. What's the one skill you would prescribe What's the one skill you would prescribe What's the one skill you would prescribe everyone to learn or master to be able everyone to learn or master to be able everyone to learn or master to be able to navigate the uncertainties of what to navigate the uncertainties of what to navigate the uncertainties of what will happen in the future? will happen in the future? will happen in the future? >> Get support. >> Get support. >> Get support. Get support. You know, it's a strange Get support. You know, it's a strange Get support. You know, it's a strange thing. I had a flat tire and when I got thing. I had a flat tire and when I got thing. I had a flat tire and when I got new tires, I bought a tire plan. I new tires, I bought a tire plan. I new tires, I bought a tire plan. I bought a plan for my tires in case I hit bought a plan for my tires in case I hit bought a plan for my tires in case I hit a pothole. Do you know that sometimes I a pothole. Do you know that sometimes I a pothole. Do you know that sometimes I don't treat myself well, don't treat myself well, don't treat myself well, >> but I protected my tires? >> but I protected my tires? >> but I protected my tires? So, if we can get support, doesn't have So, if we can get support, doesn't have So, if we can get support, doesn't have to be a therapist or a grief group or to be a therapist or a grief group or to be a therapist or a grief group or divorce group or whatever it is, just divorce group or whatever it is, just divorce group or whatever it is, just talk to a friend. talk to a friend. talk to a friend. >> Share. >> Share. >> Share. Find a way to connect with someone else. Find a way to connect with someone else. Find a way to connect with someone else. >> Connection is everything. >> Connection is everything. >> Connection is everything. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Just connect with one other person. And >> Just connect with one other person. And >> Just connect with one other person. And if you can't connect, go help. Go if you can't connect, go help. Go if you can't connect, go help. Go volunteer. volunteer. volunteer. >> That'll help you a lot. Your book's >> That'll help you a lot. Your book's >> That'll help you a lot. Your book's called Finding Me: The Sixth Stage of called Finding Me: The Sixth Stage of called Finding Me: The Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kesler. I want you guys Grief by David Kesler. I want you guys Grief by David Kesler. I want you guys to check this out. Uh for me, when I to check this out. Uh for me, when I to check this out. Uh for me, when I learned how to navigate grief and loss learned how to navigate grief and loss learned how to navigate grief and loss and heal, it created such a level of and heal, it created such a level of and heal, it created such a level of peace and abundance inside of me. And it peace and abundance inside of me. And it peace and abundance inside of me. And it didn't mean I was like perfect didn't mean I was like perfect didn't mean I was like perfect overnight. And it didn't, you know, I overnight. And it didn't, you know, I overnight. And it didn't, you know, I still have stresses, but when I learned still have stresses, but when I learned still have stresses, but when I learned how to navigate these skills, it gave how to navigate these skills, it gave how to navigate these skills, it gave me, it unlocked my life in ways I never me, it unlocked my life in ways I never me, it unlocked my life in ways I never knew were possible. knew were possible. knew were possible. >> So, I want people to get your book. And >> So, I want people to get your book. And >> So, I want people to get your book. And >> I also did a workbook with it because I >> I also did a workbook with it because I >> I also did a workbook with it because I want people go, "What's grief work?" want people go, "What's grief work?" want people go, "What's grief work?" It's like, It's like, It's like, >> "This is like me sitting down with you >> "This is like me sitting down with you >> "This is like me sitting down with you at your kitchen table. We're going to do at your kitchen table. We're going to do at your kitchen table. We're going to do it together." it together." it together." >> Yeah. And I think the workbook is >> Yeah. And I think the workbook is >> Yeah. And I think the workbook is probably the best place to start because probably the best place to start because probably the best place to start because if you're afraid to speak in front of if you're afraid to speak in front of if you're afraid to speak in front of other people, then it's almost like you other people, then it's almost like you other people, then it's almost like you have a, you know, you working with them have a, you know, you working with them have a, you know, you working with them through a workbook where you can be through a workbook where you can be through a workbook where you can be introspective rather than in a group introspective rather than in a group introspective rather than in a group setting. setting. setting. >> But like you said, the best place to go >> But like you said, the best place to go >> But like you said, the best place to go next is with a group. Whether you're next is with a group. Whether you're next is with a group. Whether you're paying for a therapist, you're meeting a paying for a therapist, you're meeting a paying for a therapist, you're meeting a small group somewhere, and you have um small group somewhere, and you have um small group somewhere, and you have um aboutgrief.com has tenderhearts online aboutgrief.com has tenderhearts online aboutgrief.com has tenderhearts online grief groups. We have aboutgrief.com is grief groups. We have aboutgrief.com is grief groups. We have aboutgrief.com is a free video that just teaches you about a free video that just teaches you about a free video that just teaches you about grief. My website is grief.com. grief. My website is grief.com. grief. My website is grief.com. You can find our tenderhearts grief You can find our tenderhearts grief You can find our tenderhearts grief group there. We got 26 groups around group there. We got 26 groups around group there. We got 26 groups around people dying, whether it's a brother, people dying, whether it's a brother, people dying, whether it's a brother, sister. We've got a faith group, an sister. We've got a faith group, an sister. We've got a faith group, an afterlife group. We even got an afterlife group. We even got an afterlife group. We even got an anticipatory grief group for people anticipatory grief group for people anticipatory grief group for people whose loved ones are sick. whose loved ones are sick. whose loved ones are sick. >> And these are all online or >> And these are all online or >> And these are all online or >> all online. and we've got like a time >> all online. and we've got like a time >> all online. and we've got like a time for Australia, a time for Europe. You for Australia, a time for Europe. You for Australia, a time for Europe. You know, we we've really honed that really know, we we've really honed that really know, we we've really honed that really well to help people. well to help people. well to help people. >> Um, no one's turned away for lack of >> Um, no one's turned away for lack of >> Um, no one's turned away for lack of funds. We make sure everyone has access funds. We make sure everyone has access funds. We make sure everyone has access to that. to that. to that. >> That's cool. >> That's cool. >> That's cool. >> And, uh, the other thing you can find on >> And, uh, the other thing you can find on >> And, uh, the other thing you can find on grief.com is we got a amazing grief grief.com is we got a amazing grief grief.com is we got a amazing grief certificate program. People who want to certificate program. People who want to certificate program. People who want to turn their pain into purpose. You know, turn their pain into purpose. You know, turn their pain into purpose. You know, not everyone can do books or podcasts, not everyone can do books or podcasts, not everyone can do books or podcasts, but maybe you could be the person in but maybe you could be the person in but maybe you could be the person in your neighborhood that people know how your neighborhood that people know how your neighborhood that people know how to come to, or maybe you could be the to come to, or maybe you could be the to come to, or maybe you could be the therapist or the coach that becomes therapist or the coach that becomes therapist or the coach that becomes really good and understands the changes really good and understands the changes really good and understands the changes we can make when we get this part of our we can make when we get this part of our we can make when we get this part of our life. life. life. >> Wow. Okay. So, that's all at grief.com. >> Wow. Okay. So, that's all at grief.com. >> Wow. Okay. So, that's all at grief.com. >> grief.com. You can find it all there. >> grief.com. You can find it all there. >> grief.com. You can find it all there. >> That's amazing. And what's the >> That's amazing. And what's the >> That's amazing. And what's the difference between online grief group difference between online grief group difference between online grief group versus in person? versus in person? versus in person? You know, I was the first to say when You know, I was the first to say when You know, I was the first to say when that whole thing started, I was like, I that whole thing started, I was like, I that whole thing started, I was like, I don't know that emotions will translate. don't know that emotions will translate. don't know that emotions will translate. And someone said to me, have you been to And someone said to me, have you been to And someone said to me, have you been to a movie? Like, emotions translate. a movie? Like, emotions translate. a movie? Like, emotions translate. >> But it's great because I watched the >> But it's great because I watched the >> But it's great because I watched the struggle for years of people who went, I struggle for years of people who went, I struggle for years of people who went, I want just a suicide group, but I'm in a want just a suicide group, but I'm in a want just a suicide group, but I'm in a group of widows, or my local one doesn't group of widows, or my local one doesn't group of widows, or my local one doesn't have a group for siblings, or, you know, have a group for siblings, or, you know, have a group for siblings, or, you know, I'm a young widow. It's hard for me to I'm a young widow. It's hard for me to I'm a young widow. It's hard for me to be with older W. We can do them. be with older W. We can do them. be with older W. We can do them. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> We can just do them online in your time >> We can just do them online in your time >> We can just do them online in your time zone. So easy. zone. So easy. zone. So easy. >> And does someone when they join one of >> And does someone when they join one of >> And does someone when they join one of these grief groups, do they go once a these grief groups, do they go once a these grief groups, do they go once a week, once a month? What is this week, once a month? What is this week, once a month? What is this process? process? process? >> We have it where it's four times a week >> We have it where it's four times a week >> We have it where it's four times a week that they have the options to attend. that they have the options to attend. that they have the options to attend. >> And it's like you want to go into a >> And it's like you want to go into a >> And it's like you want to go into a group, great. Two times a week you can group, great. Two times a week you can group, great. Two times a week you can see me working with one person. Someone see me working with one person. Someone see me working with one person. Someone volunteers to work with me, everyone volunteers to work with me, everyone volunteers to work with me, everyone else watches and people go, "Why would else watches and people go, "Why would else watches and people go, "Why would that help?" That person asks a question, that help?" That person asks a question, that help?" That person asks a question, you didn't know you needed the answer. you didn't know you needed the answer. you didn't know you needed the answer. >> And it changes you. >> And it changes you. >> And it changes you. >> And then on Fridays, we have a different >> And then on Fridays, we have a different >> And then on Fridays, we have a different topic because there's not one voice in topic because there's not one voice in topic because there's not one voice in grief. Not mine, not yours. And it's grief. Not mine, not yours. And it's grief. Not mine, not yours. And it's like, let's take a topic and discuss it. like, let's take a topic and discuss it. like, let's take a topic and discuss it. How did you handle guilt? How do you How did you handle guilt? How do you How did you handle guilt? How do you handle handle handle >> being happy? How do you handle the >> being happy? How do you handle the >> being happy? How do you handle the things that people say that are cruel? things that people say that are cruel? things that people say that are cruel? >> You know, it's interesting. I was >> You know, it's interesting. I was >> You know, it's interesting. I was coaching um someone out of an event a coaching um someone out of an event a coaching um someone out of an event a few weeks ago and it was a widow, a few weeks ago and it was a widow, a few weeks ago and it was a widow, a woman who had lost her husband that she woman who had lost her husband that she woman who had lost her husband that she was in love with and I think it was was in love with and I think it was was in love with and I think it was about maybe 10 years ago and she's about maybe 10 years ago and she's about maybe 10 years ago and she's remarried. remarried. remarried. She's got a blended family and I think She's got a blended family and I think She's got a blended family and I think new kids as well in the remarage. And new kids as well in the remarage. And new kids as well in the remarage. And she was like, "One of the hardest things she was like, "One of the hardest things she was like, "One of the hardest things for me has been like feeling good, like for me has been like feeling good, like for me has been like feeling good, like accepting that I feel really good where accepting that I feel really good where accepting that I feel really good where I'm at now. I feel guilty I'm at now. I feel guilty I'm at now. I feel guilty being happy." being happy." being happy." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When other people are not happy, they're >> When other people are not happy, they're >> When other people are not happy, they're still grieving. They they feel like still grieving. They they feel like still grieving. They they feel like you're never going to be able to find you're never going to be able to find you're never going to be able to find someone again. you're not allowed to someone again. you're not allowed to someone again. you're not allowed to have love and joy and happiness again have love and joy and happiness again have love and joy and happiness again when you've lost your husband or or when you've lost your husband or or when you've lost your husband or or someone close to you. And she goes, "It someone close to you. And she goes, "It someone close to you. And she goes, "It feels really good to finally start to be feels really good to finally start to be feels really good to finally start to be able to say, I'm worthy of feeling happy able to say, I'm worthy of feeling happy able to say, I'm worthy of feeling happy again and love again, even though I lost again and love again, even though I lost again and love again, even though I lost a great man that I loved as well." a great man that I loved as well." a great man that I loved as well." That's a story we often play in our mind That's a story we often play in our mind That's a story we often play in our mind of disloyalty. of disloyalty. of disloyalty. M M M >> look >> look >> look really I'm going to be happy again after really I'm going to be happy again after really I'm going to be happy again after my son died. my son died. my son died. That doesn't sound like a good parent. That doesn't sound like a good parent. That doesn't sound like a good parent. But I had to really think about who my But I had to really think about who my But I had to really think about who my son is. And am I being loyal to him by son is. And am I being loyal to him by son is. And am I being loyal to him by not living again? Is that really what he not living again? Is that really what he not living again? Is that really what he would want? And I'll tell you, I can would want? And I'll tell you, I can would want? And I'll tell you, I can imagine I don't know what the imagine I don't know what the imagine I don't know what the afterlife's like, but I could imagine afterlife's like, but I could imagine afterlife's like, but I could imagine whatever it is, how many years from now, whatever it is, how many years from now, whatever it is, how many years from now, decades, I arrive in the afterlife. And decades, I arrive in the afterlife. And decades, I arrive in the afterlife. And I meet my son. It's great we finally see I meet my son. It's great we finally see I meet my son. It's great we finally see each other again. And he says to me, "Oh each other again. And he says to me, "Oh each other again. And he says to me, "Oh my gosh, tell me about Earth. Wasn't it my gosh, tell me about Earth. Wasn't it my gosh, tell me about Earth. Wasn't it incredible?" And I go, "Well, I incredible?" And I go, "Well, I incredible?" And I go, "Well, I grieved." Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm sure you grieved." Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm sure you grieved." Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm sure you did. That had to be hard. It was really did. That had to be hard. It was really did. That had to be hard. It was really brutal. I get it. And what about like I brutal. I get it. And what about like I brutal. I get it. And what about like I missed the food. Was the food What else missed the food. Was the food What else missed the food. Was the food What else did Did you go places? Did you travel? did Did you go places? Did you travel? did Did you go places? Did you travel? Did And I'm like, Did And I'm like, Did And I'm like, >> "No, I just grieved. >> "No, I just grieved. >> "No, I just grieved. >> My son would be like, >> My son would be like, >> My son would be like, >> "Dude, >> "Dude, >> "Dude, life's too too incredible to miss." life's too too incredible to miss." life's too too incredible to miss." >> And here's the thing, it's a decision. >> And here's the thing, it's a decision. >> And here's the thing, it's a decision. >> She made a decision. >> She made a decision. >> She made a decision. >> You know, I live in a cute little >> You know, I live in a cute little >> You know, I live in a cute little neighborhood with these little small neighborhood with these little small neighborhood with these little small houses. And I can imagine, I knew there houses. And I can imagine, I knew there houses. And I can imagine, I knew there was a moment where I could have been the was a moment where I could have been the was a moment where I could have been the grief guy that never left his house grief guy that never left his house grief guy that never left his house again. again. again. >> And I could imagine the teenagers >> And I could imagine the teenagers >> And I could imagine the teenagers driving by going, "Is that a haunted driving by going, "Is that a haunted driving by going, "Is that a haunted house?" No, it's a grief expert whose house?" No, it's a grief expert whose house?" No, it's a grief expert whose son died and he never came out again. son died and he never came out again. son died and he never came out again. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> I could have seen that. But it was a >> I could have seen that. But it was a >> I could have seen that. But it was a decision decision decision to live again. to live again. to live again. >> Wow. And each of us in small ways and >> Wow. And each of us in small ways and >> Wow. And each of us in small ways and big ways, not just around death, have big ways, not just around death, have big ways, not just around death, have that decision every day. Do we show up? that decision every day. Do we show up? that decision every day. Do we show up? Do we live again? Do we sink? Every one Do we live again? Do we sink? Every one Do we live again? Do we sink? Every one of us is deciding that constantly, no of us is deciding that constantly, no of us is deciding that constantly, no matter what your circumstances are. matter what your circumstances are. matter what your circumstances are. I've got a couple final questions for I've got a couple final questions for I've got a couple final questions for you, David. But I want to acknowledge you, David. But I want to acknowledge you, David. But I want to acknowledge you first for not being stuck in your you first for not being stuck in your you first for not being stuck in your house after grief and coming out and house after grief and coming out and house after grief and coming out and finding ways to expand and live even finding ways to expand and live even finding ways to expand and live even with more joy, more love, more with more joy, more love, more with more joy, more love, more acceptance acceptance acceptance >> and um continuing to be of service to so >> and um continuing to be of service to so >> and um continuing to be of service to so many people who are going through this many people who are going through this many people who are going through this and ultimately finding meaning in the and ultimately finding meaning in the and ultimately finding meaning in the process process process >> because I think that's does what makes >> because I think that's does what makes >> because I think that's does what makes life richer. And when I can look back on life richer. And when I can look back on life richer. And when I can look back on my life, you know, I don't like that the my life, you know, I don't like that the my life, you know, I don't like that the 5-year-old in me had to experience 5-year-old in me had to experience 5-year-old in me had to experience sexual abuse, sexual abuse, sexual abuse, >> but I can find meaning now and not say I >> but I can find meaning now and not say I >> but I can find meaning now and not say I wish it happened again, but I can find wish it happened again, but I can find wish it happened again, but I can find meaning saying it did happen. meaning saying it did happen. meaning saying it did happen. >> And because I'm able to process it now >> And because I'm able to process it now >> And because I'm able to process it now and find meaning, hopefully I'm able to and find meaning, hopefully I'm able to and find meaning, hopefully I'm able to help other people help other people help other people >> by being able to sit with them or being >> by being able to sit with them or being >> by being able to sit with them or being able to share this story with you able to share this story with you able to share this story with you without it crippling me like it used to. without it crippling me like it used to. without it crippling me like it used to. >> Right? And so that meaning that you've >> Right? And so that meaning that you've >> Right? And so that meaning that you've created is really powerful and I created is really powerful and I created is really powerful and I acknowledge you for that. Um I have two acknowledge you for that. Um I have two acknowledge you for that. Um I have two final questions for you. This is called final questions for you. This is called final questions for you. This is called the three truths. Y so imagine the three truths. Y so imagine the three truths. Y so imagine hypothetically you get to live as long hypothetically you get to live as long hypothetically you get to live as long as you want. Um but on the final day you as you want. Um but on the final day you as you want. Um but on the final day you have to take all of your work with you. have to take all of your work with you. have to take all of your work with you. So this book, this podcast, everything So this book, this podcast, everything So this book, this podcast, everything you've ever created. Everything you you've ever created. Everything you you've ever created. Everything you create from now until that day is gone. create from now until that day is gone. create from now until that day is gone. Not from this world anymore. But you get Not from this world anymore. But you get Not from this world anymore. But you get to leave behind three final lessons with to leave behind three final lessons with to leave behind three final lessons with the world that we would get to keep. I the world that we would get to keep. I the world that we would get to keep. I call the three truths. What would those call the three truths. What would those call the three truths. What would those be for you? be for you? be for you? >> Love is all that matters. >> Love is all that matters. >> Love is all that matters. Let the good just saturate in you. Take Let the good just saturate in you. Take Let the good just saturate in you. Take in the good. We know how to take in the in the good. We know how to take in the in the good. We know how to take in the bad. bad. bad. >> Take in the good and be you. >> Take in the good and be you. >> Take in the good and be you. >> It's it's it's a strange thing. Like >> It's it's it's a strange thing. Like >> It's it's it's a strange thing. Like those of us who have really done this those of us who have really done this those of us who have really done this work know being you sounds like the work know being you sounds like the work know being you sounds like the easiest thing in the world to be your easiest thing in the world to be your easiest thing in the world to be your authentic self. It's the hardest thing authentic self. It's the hardest thing authentic self. It's the hardest thing to let go of all the who we think we to let go of all the who we think we to let go of all the who we think we should be. Just be ourselves. I still should be. Just be ourselves. I still should be. Just be ourselves. I still work on that all the time. I'm going to work on that all the time. I'm going to work on that all the time. I'm going to not only leave that behind for everyone, not only leave that behind for everyone, not only leave that behind for everyone, I'm going to try to continue to take it I'm going to try to continue to take it I'm going to try to continue to take it in. in. in. >> That's beautiful. Uh, final question. >> That's beautiful. Uh, final question. >> That's beautiful. Uh, final question. David, what's your definition of David, what's your definition of David, what's your definition of greatness? greatness? greatness? >> Showing up for others and yourself. >> Showing up for others and yourself. >> Showing up for others and yourself. Showing up fully Showing up fully Showing up fully >> for others and yourself. >> for others and yourself. >> for others and yourself. >> David Kesler, thanks for being here. >> David Kesler, thanks for being here. >> David Kesler, thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> I don't think there are a lot of parents >> I don't think there are a lot of parents >> I don't think there are a lot of parents who [music] wake up and maliciously try who [music] wake up and maliciously try who [music] wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their to screw up their kids or hurt their to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. kids or belittle or shame their kids. kids or belittle or shame their kids. [music] Um I think we're doing the best [music] Um I think we're doing the best [music] Um I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think we can with what we have. And so I think we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have to let go of the idea that if I have to let go of the idea that if I have done something [music] that I could have done something [music] that I could have done something [music] that I could have done better or that I could learn from done better or that I could learn from done better or that I could learn from that I have to just come down. People that I have to just come down. People that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting.