Gabor Maté: Five Steps To Stop Scrolling, Bingeing, and Self-Medicating — And Reclaim Your Brain

Key Takeaway

Childhood stress shapes our brain's development, affecting both addiction and ADHD. The key to healing isn't asking "what's wrong with me?" but "what happened to me?" Practice compassionate curiosity: when you reach for ice cream or scroll mindlessly, ask yourself "What relief am I seeking?" Then consciously engage in the behavior, acknowledging it as an attempt to regulate stress. This awareness itself begins to diminish the compulsive pattern while you develop healthier coping mechanisms.

Episode Overview

Dr. Gabor Maté explains how childhood stress and trauma shape brain development, leading to both addiction and ADHD. He argues these aren't inherited diseases but developmental responses to early environments. The conversation explores the neuroscience of addiction (particularly the role of endorphins and dopamine), challenges the genetic determinism of twin studies, and offers practical healing approaches through compassionate curiosity and mindfulness. Maté emphasizes that addiction exists on a spectrum—from heroin to Instagram scrolling—and all serve the same function: temporary relief from pain.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Gabor Maté: Five Steps To Stop Scrolling, Bingeing, and Self-Medicating — And Reclaim Your Brain from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Dr. Gabbor Mate, welcome back to the show. Pleasure. Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time. Okay, let me set an overall frame on this uh discussion. Uh you have written a lot um about uh how the stuff that happens to us in our childhood um i.e. childhood trauma uh can be the source of both of our uh of both our addictive tendencies addictive tendencies addictive tendencies um and our scattered minds um most and in its most extreme form ADHD. So I I want to both explore this argument and then also get into what we can do about it.

Um so how does that sound as an overall framework here? Sounds uh very necessary is what it sounds like. sounds like. sounds like. Well, I would agree with you there. Um, and let me before we get into the sort of what we can do about it, I want to ask some clarifying questions. Um, when you argue that childhood trauma is at the the root of addiction and ADHD, does that argument scale to um um um the less extreme cases? Um, so instead of full-blown addiction, would what happened to me in my childhood explain my tendency to overeat or scroll or binge on Netflix?

Um, and similarly with ADHD, would would it would your argument about childhood trauma also scale to the fact that we generally have scattered minds even if we don't have a a diagnosis? diagnosis? diagnosis? Well, so first of all, in my book in ADHD, which is the first book that I wrote after I was diagnosed with it myself, I don't even use the word trauma. Although I'm accused of saying that trauma is the cause of ADHD. If you read the book 105,000 words, trauma is mentioned four times and never is the cause.

So, it's a bit more sophisticated than that. Then when it comes to addiction, addiction, addiction, um, and you talk about a range of addiction, a whole spectrum of it, from a full-blown heroin addict to somebody who scrolls the Instagram all the time and there's a continuum. So human beings are on a spectrum, on a continuum. And the whole idea that there's sort of one normal and then there's deviations from the normal is totally false. In fact, my most recent book is called the myth of normal.

So when it comes to addiction, let me begin by giving you a definition first of all, which I think will help to cover your question. So I define and and by the way, I as a medical doctor, I worked in North America's most um dire and concentrated and desperate area of drug use, which is the downtown side of Vancouver, British Columbia. We're in a few square block radius. We have thousands of people ingesting, inhaling, injecting drugs of all kinds and dying and falling sick as a result.

And I worked there for 12 years. And um at the same time when I worked there with these really desperately really desperately really desperately ill and driven human beings, I could recognize in myself very similar addictive drives. Not to the same extent. So it's a continuum. That's the first point. The second point is I'll give you a definition of an addiction. I don't think it's controversial. So an addiction is um manifested in any behavior in which a person finds temporary relief and pleasure and therefore craves but then experiences negative consequences as a result of and doesn't give it up despite the harm.

So craving, pleasure, relief in the short term, that's the first dynamic. The second one is harm. And the third is inability to give it up despite the harm. Now notice that my definition said nothing about drugs. It certainly includes drugs. Could be legal drugs like um nicotine or caffeine substances, alcohol. substances, alcohol. substances, alcohol. Could also be illegal substances like heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and so on. but could also be internet scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, work, shopping, eating, bulimia, self-cutting, extreme sports, pornography, gaming, and I could go on.

So, the issue is not simply the behavior, but one's relationship to it. So for example, you could eat in a non-addictive way or you could be addicted to eating depending on how you're using it. So as to your question, what I'm saying is it's a whole spectrum. But what the whole spectrum of addiction shares is behaviors that cause temporary relief, cause harm, and we don't give it up. And what I'm saying is there's a universal addiction process in the brain and in the psyche that all people addicted share.

Doesn't matter what the target of the addiction is. Now, if that makes sense to you, allow me to ask you a question if I may. Yes, of course. According to that definition, I'm not going to ask what, but have you ever had an addiction in your life? Addictive pattern in your life? Cuz if you ask me, yes, I have. How about you? A million many of them. Yes. Okay. So, let me ask you this. Not what's wrong with the addiction, which is obvious. What's right about it?

What does it give you in the short term that you want? Well, you make a you made a nod at this in in your last answer, which is it gives me temporary relief from some sort of afflictive emotion. Okay. So, it gives you relief of some kind of pain. Yes. So that's my whole point. Addictions are not a choice that people are making and it's not a disease that they've inherited. It's an attempt to solve the problem of human suffering. And what happens is is that the suffering comes first then the addiction comes along to try and soothe the suffering.

Hence my mantra. Don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. If you want to ask why the pain, yes, that goes back to childhood experiences. Now childhood experiences can be of different um intensity and uh people can experience them differently depending on how sensitive they are. So the more sensitive you are, the more things will hurt you. But in the downtown east side where I wrote for 12 years, I never had a single female patient who had not been sexually abused as a child. And if you look at the large scale studies on substance addicts, that's what it shows that that that severe childhood experiences potentiate addictions later on in life.

That's not even vaguely controversial. But But But children can be hurt not just by terrible things happening to them, but also by their needs not being met. And so there's a whole range of experiences that can wound a child that can lead later lead somebody to seek relief from the pain. And that's all addictions are is an attempt to seek relief from the pain. I've said a mouthful, but but that's that's how I see it. No, it's fascinating. And and this is a podcast. mouthfuls are um encouraged.

Uh the the so that that that argument that um um um sorry let me state that again. So your argument that uh addiction is a spectrum and uh at the root of all of it is um um um uh difficult events some degree some degree of pain including childhood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And and is that also true for ADHD in in the sense that um while I personally don't have an ADHD diagnosis, I am definitely prone to being distractable. Um and so would you say the same thing is true that there's a there's a range a continuum of attention uh attentional faculties and attentional faculty challenges and that the same thing is true that it also those challenges have their root in childhood.

Yes. So I have an ADHD diagnosis. I was diagnosed in my early 50s and uh that's when I wrote my first book which is uh scattered minds and which is even which I wrote it 26 years ago but even a few months ago it was a New York Times bestseller and uh if you look at ADHD is another one of these conditions these another one of these conditions which medical which medical which medical ideology says is an inherited disease. No, it isn't. It runs in families.

A couple of my kids were diagnosed, but things can run in families without genetic transmission. So, here's what I'm saying. If you take the hallmark of ADHD, which is tuning out absent-mindedness, out absent-mindedness, out absent-mindedness, it's not a disease. It's actually a coping mechanism. If I were to stress you right now and you'd have the options of leaving, just hanging up on me or fighting back and saying, "No, you can't talk to me that way." But if I were to create stress for you and you couldn't escape and you couldn't change the situation, one way that your brain would deal with it would be to tune out to dissociate to protect yourself from the stress.

Now what I'm saying is when genetically highly sensitive infants are living in a highly stressed environment which is not a question of necessarily the parents being abusive or bad or unloving but just the parents are stressed themselves which increasingly is the case in this culture. These kids are stressed and how they cope with it is by tuning out. It's a coping mechanism. And when does that happen? When the brain is developing. And so if you look at the brain science or brain development, I could quote you an article from Harvard University which um if you give me a quick second, I will actually bring up on my computer and we'll quote for you because I think it's essential and this is an article published uh in 2012 um from Harvard University from the Harvard Center on the Developing Child which is the world's leading child developmental institution.

The article appeared in the major medical journal of pediatrics which is the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics. And if I may read you two And if I may read you two sentences sentences sentences um from this article which summed up decades of brain research which unfortunately is not taught in the medical schools. So the average doctors got no clue how the brain actually develops which is astonishing. Here's what they say. The architecture of the brain is constructed to an ongoing process that begins before birth, continues into adulthood, and establishes either a sturdy or a fragile foundation for all the health, learning, and behavior that follow.

So that the architecture of the brain is constructed by a process that begins before birth. Which means that already the emotional stresses of the mother when she's pregnant is affecting the brain development of the child. And in my most recent book, The Myth of Normal, there's a chapter on that about how stresses on women in this society, which there's plenty, affect the brain development of infants already in the womb. And there's ools of scientific evidence for that. That's the first sentence. The second sentence is the interactions of genes and experiences literally shapes the circuitry of the developing brain and is critically influenced by the mutual responsiveness of adult child relationships particularly in the early childhood years.

And what they're saying there is that the actual circuitry of the brain is shaped by the environment acting on the genes. how the genes are turned on and off by the environment and the most important aspect of that environment is the quality of the emotional relationship between the child and the nurturing adults. Now if you have a society like ours which puts so much stress on parents for economic and political and racialized and reasons for reasons of unresolved trauma for res for reasons of increased isolation less social support less community less um cohesion.

A lot of parents are really stressed and these kids who are genetically very sensitive, they pick up on the stresses of their parents and that affects how their brain develops which goes back to addiction as well. So that essential brain circuits that are involved in addiction addiction addiction andor in ADHD have have have been affected by stresses or in some cases traumas in early childhood years. It's pure brain science. That's all it is. Let me say a few things to the listener. Uh Dr. Monte uh the first is that you uh dear listener, you may have heard uh Dr.

Mate refer to the myth of normal, his most recent book. I will drop a link in the show notes, not only to the Amazon link if you want to check out that book, but also to the last time Dr. Mate was on the show when we talked about that book in um in an extensive way. Uh the second thing I want to say to the listener is um I'm going to get to uh the uh Dr. about this practical advice uh uh soon. But on uh let's just take a minute to talk about this assertion uh about um ADHD and um and difficulty in childhood whether it's whether you call it trauma or whatever you want to call it.

Um let's call it stress. Stress. Sure. Um uh there are uh this is a you've you've uh you've tangled with lots of folks over this claim. Um and I just uh so I want to just note that but also to to I want to just note that but also to ask you you know that I believe there are some twin and adoption studies you know where twins one twin stays with one family and the other twin stays with another family. Uh and some of these studies show or seem to indicate that actually there there may be a genetic um influence here for ADHD.

Yes. And uh in both my book on ADHD scattered minds and in my book on addiction in the realos I show how useless those studies are. And I'll tell you why because they make an assumption. The assumption is that first of all identical twin studies are the gold standard because they're the same genes, right? So if they have the same genes, they should have the same condition condition condition theoretically. theoretically. theoretically. So they what the twin studies show that if you take identical twins separated at birth and you bring them in different environments, environments, environments, the concordance which means the the ratio by which if one is diagnosed so the other is about 70%.

So if one kid identical twin is ADHD, but they're brought up in a different family from the other twins, the other twin will have a 70% chance of having ADHD. Now, what does that tell you? It tells you it can't be genetic cuz if it was, it should be 100%. They have the same genes. So, so, so it's that 30% difference that we should be interested in. Number one. Number two, there's a false assumption. The assumption is that these kids were brought up in different environment.

But what did I just read you? I just read you a article from Harvard University that says that the brain starts to developing in the womb. So these kids shed 9 months in the same womb. And by definition, any woman that's going to give up a baby for adoption is a stressed woman. if she wasn't stressed, a single mom, a poor mom, an abused mom, an addicted mom, um a traumatized mom, an unsupported teenage mom, she wouldn't have to give up the baby for adoption. So for 9 months, both those twins have the hormones of stress, cortisol, adrenaline affecting their brain development.

So share the same environment. Number one. Number two, they both had the shock of being separated from the biological mother, which is a huge shock to the baby. So to say that they didn't have the same environment is utter scientific nonsense. And there's a whole book written called the fallacies of twin studies. studies. studies. And so those twin studies are simply false flags when it comes to generating information about genetic um causation. Number one. And number two, even if it was true that there was a 70% inheritance, we can't do anything about people's genes.

How about that 30% that isn't genetic? That's what we could work with is the environment. How do we understand the environment? And how do we modulate the environment to support healthy development? But I'm telling you, the twin studies for the reasons that I mentioned and others are useless. And um I talk about why they are in in two of my books. And in in my in my book on addiction, I have a whole appendix on explaining why the twin studies are are misleading when it comes to genetic causation.

causation. causation. Okay. One other question on this score. Um, if ADHD is is based in childhood stress, h what do we make of the fact that that stimulant medications appear to reliably improve symptoms and and those medications aren't going right at the stress as I understand it. Well, now wait a minute now. Remember I talked about brain development? development? development? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, no child is born with attention. Ever had a mother one day old? They have no attention span whatsoever. It has to develop.

Another feature of ADHD is poor impulse regulation. Believe me, I know that one as my wife could tell you. Um, no child is born with impulse regulation. It has to develop. The circuits of motivation and curiosity and seeking, they have to develop. And the chemical that they run on is dopamine. And those dopamine have to develop. Now, as soon as you talk about development, we have to talk about which circumstances will support healthy development and what will not. So, yes, the ADHD brain has got poor attention skills, poor impulse regulation, and um difficulty concentration.

That's biological. But here's the whole point that people miss. I [snorts] just read you two sentences from Harvard University on brain development. The biology of the brain is shaped by the environment acting on the genes. So it's not surprising that when environments are stressed or in some cases traumatic, the brain doesn't develop properly biologically. Same thing happens in addicted people. And so therefore you you bring along a chemical that helps to regulate the biology, you're going to get good results. But the original cause of the biology going ary was the stress or trauma during that period of brain development.

If you had a plant in your garden that wasn't going properly, your first idea wouldn't be that there's something genetically wrong. You'd be asking yourself, what conditions are lacking? you know, irrigation, sunlight, nutrition in the soil and so on. So, um that's what we have to look at is what conditions do we need to support healthy biological brain development because the human brain develops in interaction with the environment and not only that, the human brain remains in interaction interaction interaction with the environment all of our lifetime.

So, I've taken stimulant medication and they helped me write my first book. When I wrote my last book, I didn't need it anymore. My brain had developed differently. That's the whole point. How do people promote healthy brain development? So, that sonic is biological doesn't mean that it's genetic. It's the environment acting on the genes that shapes the biology of the developing brain. One more time, as I've just quoted from that Harvard article, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress can affect us more than we know.

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Visit northwestregistered.com/happierfree. Get more with Northwest Registered agent at at at northwestregisteredagent.com/happierfree. Let's let's talk about some of your practical advice for dealing with both um our addictive tendencies and our scattered minds. Um and I wonder I wonder Dan if you'd permit me to say a little bit more about the addicted brain. addicted brain. addicted brain. Please go for it. So let's understand the biology of addiction. So let's take opiate addiction. Heroin so or heroin or fentinel or any one of the um artificial or natural made opiates which originate from the opium plant that grows largely in Afghanistan and adjacent areas.

So we know that opiates work in the human brain. But why do they work in the human brain? Why does a plant that goes in Afghanistan have such a powerful impact on the brain of somebody in New York or Vancouver or or Paris? Well, the reason is is that we have receptors for opiates. Receptors are chemical chemical chemical or molecules on the surfaces of our brain cells that receive chemical messengers. And if the messenger fits into the receptor, then you have an interaction. interaction. interaction. So that means that we have opiate receptors in our brain.

But why do we have opiate receptors in our brain? Why do we have receptor for a plant in Afghanistan? We don't. We have receptors for our own internal opiates. In other words, the human organism like plant organisms and animal organisms have receptors for uh internal opiates. And those internal opiates are called endorphins, endogenous morphine-like substance. Now, if you want to know what the opiate addict is after, you have to understand what is the role of internal opiates. You know what the role of internal opiates are?

Number one, to soothe pain. They're the most powerful pain relievers that we have. And you have to have pain in order to survive. Without a pain, you can hurt yourself. But you have to have some pain relief. And the opiates, the internal opiates provide physical pain relief, but also emotional pain relief. So, they're powerful pain relievers. That's remember what I said. Don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. That's their first role. The second role of the opiates, and by the way, they're active all over the body, in the gut, in the immune system, in the mucous membranes.

I'm talking in the brain now. In the brain. And the second thing they do is they potentiate the experience of joy, elation, and reward. But life is pretty damn difficult. Where would we be if we had no capacity for elation and joy? So when people go bungee jumping, uh it's not the pleasure of damning off a rubber rope that they're after. They get a big endorphin hit and the more endorphin hit they get, the more elated they are. So that's the second rule. And their third role then is the most important role of all.

They make they facilitate facilitate a little thing we call love. call love. call love. And love is the caring that the adult provides the child without which the mamian child would not survive. And so that both the parent and the infant have endorphin circuitry that connects them to each other so that the the caretaking is possible. And so imagine human life without pain relief, without sense of pleasure and reward, and without love. And what my addicted patients used to tell me, one of them said, "Doc, the first time I did heroin, it felt like a warm, soft hug." And that's what people are after, are after, are after, the warmth, the love and hug.

And that's where they get hooked on heroin. And that has to do with brain biology. But the point is under conditions of trauma that biology doesn't develop and then when a person does the heroin for the first time first time first time they feel like her they feel like a human being. That's the biology of addiction. I could go on about dopamine and other brain chemicals. But the point I'm making is that the biology of addiction is potentiated by childhood experience which didn't allow for the proper development of essential biological brain circuits.

Yeah. Which also means that the healing which you can talk about next if you wish needs to take into account what does it take to create new circuits. What does it take to create new ways of being in the world that gets us past the traumatic effects? traumatic effects? traumatic effects? Well, you intuited where I wanted to go in terms of what do we do about it? Aka healing. Um my understanding and I believe this applies both to our addictive tendency, our addictive tendencies and our scattered minds.

My understanding is um your one of your topline recommendations is something you call uh compassionate curiosity. Can you describe what that is? Compassionate curiosity. curiosity. curiosity. Sure. Sure. Sure. So um people with both with ADHD by the way and with addiction and there's a huge link between two of them because very often people's addictions are actually actually actually you know um in in inapt attempts to deal with their ADHD like people that are are addicted to stimulants like cocaine and crystal meth or nicotine and caffeine they're trying to elevate the levels of dopamine in their brain which is exactly what you get from rolin or dexadine or at all.

at all. at all. So the so a lot of addictions are self medications. In one study um 40% of male adult alcoholics met the criteria of ADHD. Why? Cuz alcohol soos the hyperactive brain. hyperactive brain. hyperactive brain. So there's a huge link between addictions and ADHD. So both conditions carry a lot of shame, a lot of self-lame. self-lame. self-lame. uh that's a result of childhood stress or trauma. or trauma. or trauma. But people are really hard on themselves and I've seen this in my work with hundreds of people with ADHD or or over addictions and you know I've shared it myself and it tend to be a self accusation.

Why am I doing this? What's wrong with me? me? me? Well, if I was talking to you and if I said to you, "Why are you doing this?" this?" this?" What would your emotional response be? Fight or flight? Exactly. Defensive. But if I said to you, "Hey, Dan, I'm curious. I wonder why you're doing this. Can we talk about it?" What would your response, Dendi? approach state like openness. Yeah, that's the whole point. So if we can have that develop this compassionate curiosity to about ourselves and um my colleague and friend um Bruce Bailey wrote a book with Oprah called what happened to you?

Not what's wrong with you but you know what happened to you? So if we can start compassionately asking ourselves well why did I become this way? Like somebody wrote me a email the other day. They had 80. They said I was a hellish child. Nobody is a hellish child. child. child. But that means she took on a negative view of herself that her parents had of her who didn't understand her. Well, nobody's a hellish child. Nobody's a bad child. Nobody's a rotten apple. Nobody's damaged woods.

So we can ask why, what happened with a sense of curiosity. Um there's a spiritual teacher who said that um only when compassion is present will people allow themselves to to face the truth. the truth. the truth. So we want people is to help them explore what is the truth of their lives and for that you need compassion. And so I teach self-compassion as an essential step towards self-awareness. And once you start asking questions compassionately compassionately compassionately for yourself and for everybody else, then the answer starts coming.

So take me into a moment where we can think about how to apply this for ourselves. So, I've just reached the bottom of a pint of ice cream, or I've just finished 90 minutes of scrolling on TikTok when I had a deadline. Um, and I'm tempted to go into a shame spiral. spiral. spiral. Uh, if I can channel uh Gabbor Mate, what would be a healthier move? Well, four weeks ago or three weeks ago, Gaba Mate deleted Instagram from his cell phone because he was spending too much time scrolling on it.

Um, but I did that and wait, I have to jump in. I never interrupt my guest, but I just want to tell you I did the same thing 3 weeks ago myself. I deleted comrades in arms then. Um, so, uh, so here's the first question. Ask yourself, Ask yourself, Ask yourself, like I said before, not what's wrong with the addiction and what's right about it. In other words, from this nine minutes of scrolling or from this point of ice cream, what did I get? And the answer is going to be I got relief.

I got relief from some emotional tension, from some utteral pain, for some stress. And I'll say good for you. Um, Um, Um, good for you that you're seeking relief from your stress. Can you find some other ways of doing so without harming yourself? Are you interested in that? So that's the next question. question. question. And also, can you understand? Are you interested in exploring where that stress came from? And here's the thing about stress. It's a part of life. There's no life without stress. There's no life without pain.

That's not that's not negotiable. We're all going to have grief. We're all going to have losses. We're all going to have setbacks. We're going to have failures. We're going to have people [clears throat] um not treating us well, um disappointments. That's just a part of being a human being. Ideally, as we develop properly, we learn how to handle those stresses, those setbacks, those disappointments. What happened that I didn't learn how to do that? So that again calls for compassion, curiosity and then what support can I get?

What conditions in my life can I create where I can relieve my stresses in ways that are not harmful to me? So that's the nutshell response. nutshell response. nutshell response. So those questions that you just laid out including, you know, what did I get from this pond of ice cream? that that that seems like a really great reframing in the moment. Is there are there further steps that I should um pursue because um I'm not quite sure that fully pulls me out of the shame just by reframing it.

Well, it doesn't fully perhaps, but the next question is how is it that I'm not able to handle stress differently? Well, what happened to me? So that calls for an inquiry because stress regulation which is one of the circuits that's impaired in addiction is a developmental attribute. No infant no sort of regulate their stresses. You know infants regulate their stresses. They cry and they're picked up and their parents regulate their stresses. their stresses. their stresses. That's how infants regulate stress. So as Dan Seagull the psychiatrist said that infants use the mature circuits of the adult brain to regulate their own immature circuits.

That's assuming that the parents have mature circuits. So nobody's born with stress regulation given the right environment. Stress regulation and the circuits of stress regulation and I'm pointing to them right here will develop properly. So you can ask well what happened to me that my stress regulation circuitry did not develop properly. It's not my fault. I'm not here to blame anybody but what happened to me? And then the next question is uh well but actually you know what I would say to somebody with the ice cream example example example asking these questions may not stop you next time but the next time you're stressed and you want to eat ice cream do it but do it consciously say to yourself I'm stressed right now I don't know how to regulate my stress that's not a skill or a brain circuit that I've developed yet.

So, I'm going to use the ice cream now, but I'm going to use it very consciously. I'm going to enjoy each bite of that ice cream and I'm going to be conscious. I'm eating ice cream right now to regulate myself. That's called harm reduction. Believe me, if you do that a few times, your tendency to go to ice cream will diminish. M diminish. M diminish. M and then you might need, you know, you might need to join a group or or or or go to a therapist or engage in some kind of practice to help you regulate yourself.

And there's plenty of those, but the point is to do so consciously and compassionately. When you talk about eating ice cream consciously, um I I believe you've written about the power in this regard of uh mindfulness and bare attention. bare attention. bare attention. Yeah, that's right. Can you say Yeah. Say a little bit more about that if you're up for it. Yeah. So Yeah. So Yeah. So bare attention um is our capacity to be aware of something and and and without any judgment or without any agenda just be aware.

Now the reason it's important to develop that capacity that capacity that capacity is that when you ask yourself well what part of me or who in me can pay bear attention without reaction without judgment without agenda well that's that's your true deepest self and and and if you can observe yourself and your impulses like right Uh, for example, you might say, "I need to eat ice cream right now." now." now." Well, actually, you don't need to need to eat right now. You you you all you need to do is breathe.

You know, you can live without water for a while. You can live without food. You can't live without breath. The only thing you ever need is breath. So, it's not true that you need to eat ice cream. But bare attention would tell you I have this belief that I have to eat ice cream right now. right now. right now. That's already very different because now you've separated yourself from that impulse. So I recommend exercises to strengthen our capacity for bear attention. attention. attention. I assume those would include meditation.

Yeah. Well, um, as I said in one of my books, I have a in my book on addiction, actually, I say this that I have a very, uh, profound relationship with meditation. I think about it every day. Um, Um, Um, with with my brain, meditation is like a a goon show. You know, if I can sit there for 20 minutes and 30 seconds, I'm actually conscious, I'm doing well. So I do recommend meditation. I also acknowledge that for me and lots of people like me, it's a heck of a job.

And uh you know the the Buddhists talk about or the Hindus ancient talk about the monkey mind. Well, it's a spectrum. Everybody's got this monkey mind. And in this culture um that monkey mind is encouraged by the social media and and so many other um influences influences influences the ADHD mind is an extreme example of the monkey mind. It's a spectrum but ADHD is like on one end of that spectrum of the monkey mind. And so meditation for me is a real challenge. I have a lot of sympathy for that.

For for people like you who either um really struggle with meditation or just don't feel like meditating, how can we develop we develop we develop uh bare attention or mindfulness uh in other ways? Well, so first of all, feeling like or not feeling like doesn't get you through life very well. You know, I mean, do you feel like getting up in the morning? Some mornings you don't, but you're going to do it because you have to. It's necessary, you know. Do you feel like brushing your teeth?

I don't I never feel like brushing my teeth, but I happen to know the consequences of not doing so. So, I I do it twice a day, you know, flossing my teeth. Who feels like flossing their teeth, you know? So, I'm not sure that feeling like it is a is a way to approach this. Meditation can be approached the same way. Um just as teethbrushing is dental hygiene, meditation is mental hygiene. So if we can go to dental hygiene, we can go to mental hygiene as well.

So feeling like it isn't doesn't quite cover it. But are there other ways? Yeah, there are other ways. So for conscious movement, conscious movement, conscious movement, conscious walking, conscious walking, conscious walking, connecting with nature, there's tremendous unity, uh oneness, um serenity and coherence in nature that can help to create coherence and settling in your own mind. Breath practices Breath practices Breath practices which don't take the sitting stillness of meditation. of meditation. of meditation. um active yoga, not just the physical movements of it, but consciously doing the movements that can make a big difference as well.

I'll tell you, for me, swimming is essential. Um I swim almost every day and and and when you're swimming, you're taking deep breaths and you're moving and you're calming the nervous system. You don't want to talk to me if I haven't swam for two days, you know? So, there's all kinds of ways music, music, music, listening to not not every kind of music. Some some kind of music is very agitating and sometimes you might want that, but there's also music that can soothe and concentrate and calm.

So, there's lots of practices. So, you you have some some quite practical strategies for dealing with I don't know what you might want to call them, maladaptive maladaptive habits, um uh difficult urges. Um uh uh and you you describe um you describe them as the four steps plus one. Can you uh walk us through what those are? Sure. So these steps actually I with permission um adapted them from the work of a psychiatrist at UCLA called uh Jeffrey Schwarz. Jeffrey Schwarz. Jeffrey Schwarz. and Schwarz wrote a book on OCD, obsessivecompulsive disorder, which is similar to addictions in some ways in that you engage in behaviors that are harmful and you can't stop yourself.

The difference is the person with OCD does not crave these behaviors whereas the addictive one does, but you know, a lot of the features are similar. And so I asked uh Dr. shorts. Is it okay if I adapt your four steps to dealing with behavior addictions or more broadly to any self-deprecating any self-deprecating any self-deprecating thought or habit? He said, "Yes, so here they are with gratitude to Dr. Schwarz and he he had four steps. I added a fifth one." The in step one is called relabel.

So I already actually refer to that. I talk about this thought, I need to have ice cream. The real label is I don't need to have ice cream right now. I have a thought that I have to that I need ice cream right now. So that way it's no longer a reality that I need to. It's just a thought. You've created some separation between yourself and the impulse. That's called relabel. or take a thought like I'm worthless, I'm worthless, I'm worthless, which a lot of people have those thoughts.

When you do this exercise, it's not that I'm worthless. It's that I have a thought that I'm worthless. I have a belief that's already a big step forward. So that's called relabel. The second step is called reattribute. And in this step, you put the blame exactly where it belongs, which is on your brain. So when you reattribute, you say, "This thought that I'm worthless, or this thought that I need to have an ice cream right now is just my brain sending me a false message." That's all it is.

Cuz it's not true. But your brain is programmed with it. Programmed with it a long time ago. So just your brain sending you an old message. That's the reattribute. And this is an exercise that people can do once a week or once a day in writing. And if they do that regularly, it makes a big difference to them. What's the second step is reattribute. The third step is refocus. And in refocus step, you just buy yourself some time. So, um, I have this thought that I need to have ice cream right now.

This thought is my brain sent me an old message. For 5 minutes, I'm not going to do it. For 5 minutes, I'm going to go for a walk, put on some music, um, music, um, music, um, arrange some flowers, uh, make a cup of coffee, but I'm not going to put the attention on the impulse. After that, if you want to go and have the ice cream, go have it. It's the same thing. This thought that I'm worthless. It's not true that I'm worthless. It's my brain sending me out a message.

Think of all the times that you've been kind, that you've been present, that you've been helpful, that um where life has meant something to you. Write that down as an antidote to the worthlessness thought. The fourth step is called revalue, but it could also be called re-evaluate. So this thought, in fact, you could call it devalue because what has been the actual value of this compulsion of mine to eat ice cream when I'm stressed. The value has been it's put fat on my belly. It's given me diabetes or it's made me feel ashamed.

That's the actual value of it. Write down this thought that I eat of ice cream. Here's what it's done to my life. my life. my life. Or Or Or this thought that I'm worthless. What's been its actual value? Made me feel ashamed. Isolated from people, interfered with relationships, relationships, relationships, stopped me from expressing my truth, stopped me from developing myself. That's its actual value. And when you're doing these steps, Dr. Schwarz says, anticipate and accept. Anticipate that these beliefs or these patterns will come back. Why would they come back?

Cuz you're a human being. So anticipate that they will and accept that that'll happen. But you can keep working on improving your impartial observer, your bare awareness. I added the first the fifth step which is called recreate. recreate. recreate. And I just read that to you. Life up till now has created you. You've been acting out of ingrained mechanisms wired into your brain long before you had any choice in the matter. And it's out of those automatic mechanisms and long ago programmed beliefs that you created the life now you have.

You have now it's time to recreate to choose a different life. So what kind of life would you like? So write down what kind of life would you create if you could create it? A life of meaning, a life of connection, a life of purpose, um a life of truth, a life of authenticity, life of creativity. Write it down. That doesn't mean you're going to create it immediately, but here you're moving into the position of being a creator of your life rather than just being the effect of the past.

So those are the five steps. So these five steps, just to restate them, relabel, reattribute, refocus, revalue, uh recreate, um they sound to me, and and you'll tell me if you think I'm correct about this, they sound to me like a recipe for agency over automaticity. That's the whole point. And uh thank you for saying that. And uh in the myth of normal, we talk about the A's of healing. And the first one is agency. So and we all want agency in our lives rather than and agency means rather being at the effect like so much of my behavior if I look at my past has been the effect of previous events I didn't have you know I didn't have as much agency as I thought I did you know and so it's all about gaining agency and this is an exercise that you can do that will help you regain or at least gain or develop a sense of agency See, so let's say I'd love to hear a little bit more from you about how to actually bring these uh five steps to bear in the moments we need them.

Do you think this the smartest use case is to get them into your molecules by turning it into a writing exercise so that when your zombie arm is reaching into the fridge or reaching for your phone, the you're kind of trained to be able to check handle that urge in a different way? way? way? Well, yes. Let me ask you a question. And do you play any sports at all? Uh, when I was a kid, I played sports. Okay. So, let's say somebody plays pickle ball or somebody plays tennis.

When is the time to practice? When in the middle of the game or before the game? Yes. Um, you better not start practicing. If you're going to play uh u Alcarz or Jookovic or Nadal or Federer on a tennis court, you better not start practicing practicing practicing when you step on the court. You better practice before practice before practice before So the this is a written exercise to be practiced daily or weekly or as often as you up to it so that when you're against the moment you have something with you.

So yes, it's a practice that makes a ton of sense to me and it is it is really all based in in the word we used at the jumping off point for this this practical part of our conversation which is compassion. It is just this is kind of a warm relationship to yourself that helps you behave in healthier ways. Yes. The American psy uh psychotherapist um um um uh Carl Rogers called it positive uh unconditional positive regard which is means that you accept somebody with all their flaws however they are but you accept them and that's what parents need to give their kids.

And so when it comes to ADHD for example, um rather than trying to control the behaviors of the child or simply to medicate the behaviors of the child as it was a as if it was a disease, not that I'm against medications, but what environment can we create in which healthy development can unfold in the family, in the schools, in all the institutions that kids are cared for. And so that compassionate approach to what are the needs of me as an adult or what are the needs of my child?

How do I understand the internal dynamics that drive me or that drive my child? How can I create conditions that'll promote healthy development? Those are the essential questions. Whether you're dealing with um ADHD or addiction or anything else anything else anything else and that's what my books um address as best they can. Well, let's let's talk about parents for a moment. Um I'm going to ask this question from two angles. One, uh One, uh One, uh I as a parent um I and I'm sure many other parents um can hear this argument about um uh ADHD and addiction um really having its roots in childhood stress and feel like a little defensive.

Are you saying, you know, if my kid has X or Y problem, it's because I was a bad parent. So, that's that's one aspect. I know you're not, but I'll let you say I'll let you explain that in a moment. And then the second part of the question is is is uh I can imagine if I'm and I think this describes everybody, if I have any addiction tendencies or any uh attentional challenges, uh I might just blame my parents and um not take any responsibility. So, can you address both of these canards?

Sure. So, each of my books, I'm telling in each of my books, I explain how it's unscientific, inappropriate, and cruel to blame parents. Look, I was a parent. I passed on some of my dramas to my kids. I never woke up one morning and said, "I'm going to screw up my kids." I just couldn't help it. That's how I was. given of what I knew at the time. No parent that I know wakes up and says, "I'm going to screw up my child." So there's no blame whatsoever.

It's in the nature of stress and trauma that is multigenerational. multigenerational. multigenerational. There is what um the um Georgetown University psychiatrist uh Mui Bowen and his colleague um Michael Carr called the multigenerational um emotional family process and that didn't begin with anybody in particular. particular. particular. Um, so yes, it's true. Had I been more conscious, more aware, more present, more healed, I would have been a parent who would have done things differently. But there's no blame there. There's just an understanding of what happened. So forget this idea of blame and forget this idea of guilt.

Nobody's guilty and nobody's to be blamed. It's a question of understanding what happened. And let's say you come to me with a 5-year-old with ADHD. Which would you rather hear? That your kid's got this genetic disease. There's nothing we can do about it except control his behaviors and maybe medicate him. That'll temporarily help, but in the long term they won't help. That's what the studies show. Or if I said to you, you know, then your child is probably very hyper sensitive genetically, which means they pick up a lot on the environment.

And if you can create in a family environment that's calmer, less stressed, um more understanding, your your child can develop in healthy ways. What would you rather hear? Which message um could you actually work with? And so I don't blame parents. I don't blame myself. Um, I'm just trying to show scientifically how stress, trauma, psychological traits can be passed on through the environment. And the more we can understand it and work with that environment, the more we can promote uh healing. And the good news is there's something called neuroplasticity, which is the capacity of the brain to develop new circuits in response to new experiences.

To give my personal example, when I wrote Scattered Minds, my first book, I took medication. When I wrote my most recent book, The Methanormal, much more complex, much longer, took much longer to write, much more research, I didn't need medication. My brain's different now because I've created some new conditions. Now, if you got a 5-year-old or a 12y old boy, you got lots of time to work with. So, I'm saying to you, no blame, but responsibility. responsibility. responsibility. Don't take on blame, but take the responsibility of working with the environment to promote healthier pathways.

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Just go to linkedin.com/happier. linkedin.com/happier. linkedin.com/happier. That's linkedin.com/happier. That's linkedin.com/happier. That's linkedin.com/happier. Terms and conditions apply. Okay. So, let's talk about the flip side of the question. And it's it it goes right to that word of uh responsibility. Uh I can I can imagine some people listening to the to this conversation could weaponize it in ways that would not work to their benefit uh in that they would just go into the mode of blaming their parents for whatever problems they have as opposed to taking responsibility of themselves.

And it feels to me like both things can be true sometimes. Uh our parents screwed us up. Um but it's also true that we this is our life and we have to take responsibility. responsibility. responsibility. Yeah. So here's the deal. Uh my son and I, my eldest son and I, Daniel, are writing a book together now called Hello Again, a fresh start for parents and adult children. adult children. adult children. And And And it's only a fact that in a lot of families kids have been hurt.

In my family my children have been hurt. That's just a fact. So a child might have anger about that. That anger is totally legitimate. totally legitimate. totally legitimate. I've said to my kids, I'm not worried you'll be angry with me. I'm worried you won't be angry enough. I want them to feel the anger. That's healthy. But there's a difference between blame and anger. Anger is a healthy natural human emotion. Blame is a story that you did this and you did this deliberately and you could have done differently and you're a bad person.

That's not true. So people have the right to their anger and in fact if it's there I encourage them to experience it because if they suff it down they're going to get depressed or suffer some physical disease. But that's different from blaming. blaming. blaming. So if anybody weaponizes my words, they just don't understand what I'm saying. So taking responsibility means to be responsable responsable responsable in the present. Not to take on blame about the past, but how can I respond to the present needs of myself or my child or my spouse or whoever.

How can I respond respond respond in a way that'll make a positive difference? That's what responsibility means. And parents can acknowledge, yeah, you know what? Had I known better, had I been different, I would have been done it differently. That's healthy remorse. remorse. remorse. But that's not blame. So, so I think and unfortunately, we live in a society that's addicted to blame. So, if if there's something wrong, let's find somebody to blame. I don't like that. I don't agree with it. It makes no scientific sense.

it makes [clears throat] no psychological sense. So I think in part what you're saying is it can be helpful for us to ask the question what happened to us oursel you know what happened to you um but but understanding your past does not absolve you from taking responsibility no it doesn't and and if an adult child says I'm this way because my parents did this to me and I can't be any different then they're playing victim. I don't promote victimhood because victimhood says unhelpless. says unhelpless.

says unhelpless. Now whatever your parents did, it's now your responsibility to do what you can to to to to support yourself, you know, psychologically, emotionally, whatever. So that understanding what happened in the past does not absolve your responsibility responsibility responsibility unless you want to play the victim which will keep you stuck. I don't recommend victimhood. victimhood. victimhood. So recognizing that yes, I was hurt and those hurts or those either the mistakes or the um omissions of my parents have had an impact on me. Recognizing that it helps you understand yourself, but then saying it's their fault that I'm not any different and I can't be any different.

Then you're playing victim. The responsibility is now yours. Even if your parents acknowledged, which some parents do and I hope many can that they wish they had done things differently, that wouldn't heal you. The responsibility of healing is still on you in the present moment. Before I let you go, I want to go back to ADHD and what you've learned yourself through painful experience. Um, are there any, you know, we talked about the four steps plus one, but are there any other practical tools that you've picked up in learning how to manage your own ADHD that might be worth sharing with the audience?

the audience? the audience? Well, I mean, I wrote a whole book on the subject and um and um a lot of it is to help people understand what happened to them and how the brain works and uh what parents can do in the home environment or schools can do in the school environment to create new conditions for healthy development of children. So, that's a big part of what I write about. When it comes to adults, mostly what I talk about is reparing. In other words, um creating the cuz cuz your parents are not going to create the conditions for you anymore, but you can, you know, and and so I do talk about that.

Um I talk about the how to understand the ADHD relationship. If one of the partners is ADHD, what do they have to understand? Or um if you have ADHD, ADHD, ADHD, what to understand about how your partner experiences you so you can take some responsibility for that. Um, I talk about meditation. I talk about the various ways to look after yourself. I mean, look, there's no way around it. Um, if you have ADHD, you're likely to be addicted to junk food cuz it's very soothing and it calms the brain.

It's designed to be addictive. By the way, junk food is. You're going to have to eat properly. You're very hyper sensitive by nature. That's your genetics. genetics. genetics. You're going to have to protect yourself from harm as best you can. Um Um Um I talked about nature, I talked about various practices, getting help, getting therapy, getting support. Uh all these are ways of reparing yourself, giving you giving yourself conditions for healthy development. And you know, I've been working at that for a long time. I mean, that's just an ongoing work, but it's um essential and very rewarding work.

And I've seen I've seen I've seen lots of people do very well. Actually, what you're saying reminds me of something an expression that I've heard from Kristen Nef and Chris Gurmer, the two leading researchers um pioneers really in in self-compassion. Yeah. One of the expressions they recommend people questions that people they recommend people ask themselves all the time is what do I need right now? And that strikes me as in the realm of reparing. Exactly. And um I've talked with Christina and good value her work.

In fact, I had her teach my students one time not not long ago. This has been phenomenal. It's I'm really, like I said at the beginning, very grateful to you for taking time. I know how busy you are. Will you when you release uh Hello Again, would would you and your son come back on the show? I'd be more than delighted. Thank you. And um that should be next year sometime. Um, also, um, I'll mention that on May the 12th, I'll be giving a free webinar on ADHD, a three-hour webinar along with a colleague, and we're going to cover many of this in much more detail.

So, anybody who's interested, they can look at my Instagram uh for notice about that or at my website, but it'll be a totally free online event on ADHD. We'll drop a link to that in the show notes. We'll also drop links to um your Instagram and your books and your prior appearance on this show. U all things uh Gabbor Mate. Um in the meantime, I just want to say thank you again. Really appreciate it. appreciate it. appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I'm always uh grateful for an opportunity to to speak about what matters to me.

So, thank you.