From Food Stamps to the Super Bowl War Room — NFL Chief Security Officer Cathy Lanier

I would say the two things that have I would say the two things that have helped me in that exam that have helped helped me in that exam that have helped helped me in that exam that have helped me most of my law enforcement career my me most of my law enforcement career my me most of my law enforcement career my grandmother instilled in me two things grandmother instilled in me two things grandmother instilled in me two things problem solving being a big part of that problem solving being a big part of that problem solving being a big part of that is is like you never make excuses when is is like you never make excuses when is is like you never make excuses when bad things happen don't make excuses you bad things happen don't make excuses you bad things happen don't make excuses you put yourself in that position you found put yourself in that position you found put yourself in that position you found yourself here it is nobody else's fault yourself here it is nobody else's fault yourself here it is nobody else's fault but yours you know I'm not an excuse but yours you know I'm not an excuse but yours you know I'm not an excuse person I don't make excuses if I find person I don't make excuses if I find person I don't make excuses if I find myself in a bad situation I did myself in a bad situation I did myself in a bad situation I did something to get myself here and I'm something to get myself here and I'm something to get myself here and I'm going to get myself out and that was the going to get myself out and that was the going to get myself out and that was the way she taught. The other thing she way she taught. The other thing she way she taught. The other thing she taught me was she's like, "You're going taught me was she's like, "You're going taught me was she's like, "You're going to be damned if you do and damned if you to be damned if you do and damned if you to be damned if you do and damned if you don't. You better be damned for doing don't. You better be damned for doing don't. You better be damned for doing [clears throat] like so [laughter] you [clears throat] like so [laughter] you [clears throat] like so [laughter] you act. You always act. You don't let your act. You always act. You don't let your act. You always act. You don't let your circumstances circumstances circumstances dictate for you. You act and you take dictate for you. You act and you take dictate for you. You act and you take action and you do. You don't wait for action and you do. You don't wait for action and you do. You don't wait for somebody else to do for you." somebody else to do for you." somebody else to do for you." >> Kathy, it is so lovely to see you and >> Kathy, it is so lovely to see you and >> Kathy, it is so lovely to see you and thanks for making the time. Really nice thanks for making the time. Really nice thanks for making the time. Really nice to see you again. to see you again. to see you again. >> Glad to finally connect. It was nice to >> Glad to finally connect. It was nice to >> Glad to finally connect. It was nice to see you, too, Tim. I was going back and see you, too, Tim. I was going back and see you, too, Tim. I was going back and forth on where to start this and I think forth on where to start this and I think forth on where to start this and I think I'm just going to follow the tried I'm just going to follow the tried I'm just going to follow the tried andrue and begin at the beginning here andrue and begin at the beginning here andrue and begin at the beginning here and maybe we should just start with and maybe we should just start with and maybe we should just start with tuxedo and just give people sort of a tuxedo and just give people sort of a tuxedo and just give people sort of a snapshot snapshot snapshot [gasps] of [gasps] of [gasps] of where you grew up, how you grew up, you where you grew up, how you grew up, you where you grew up, how you grew up, you know, all those dreams of being in law know, all those dreams of being in law know, all those dreams of being in law enforcement. And [laughter] enforcement. And [laughter] enforcement. And [laughter] I'm partially kidding, of course, I'm partially kidding, of course, I'm partially kidding, of course, because I know a little bit of the because I know a little bit of the because I know a little bit of the backstory, but can you tell people backstory, but can you tell people backstory, but can you tell people about the beginning? about the beginning? about the beginning? >> It's important, I think, for context >> It's important, I think, for context >> It's important, I think, for context about the choices I made in my life, about the choices I made in my life, about the choices I made in my life, like everybody on this planet, the way like everybody on this planet, the way like everybody on this planet, the way you're raised, your your family, your you're raised, your your family, your you're raised, your your family, your environment has so much influence on the environment has so much influence on the environment has so much influence on the way you do things as an adult. So, my way you do things as an adult. So, my way you do things as an adult. So, my parents married right after high school. parents married right after high school. parents married right after high school. First boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, First boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, First boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, so right after high school. My father so right after high school. My father so right after high school. My father was a firefighter, went in the fire was a firefighter, went in the fire was a firefighter, went in the fire department. My mother was a secretary. department. My mother was a secretary. department. My mother was a secretary. She went to work for the federal She went to work for the federal She went to work for the federal government. government. government. Dream, you know, back in the 50s, being Dream, you know, back in the 50s, being Dream, you know, back in the 50s, being married at 18 is perfectly normal. So, married at 18 is perfectly normal. So, married at 18 is perfectly normal. So, they got married, bought a home, started they got married, bought a home, started they got married, bought a home, started having children, they had three kids. having children, they had three kids. having children, they had three kids. I'm the youngest of the three. After I I'm the youngest of the three. After I I'm the youngest of the three. After I was born, I think they realized that a was born, I think they realized that a was born, I think they realized that a secretary and a firefighter salary does secretary and a firefighter salary does secretary and a firefighter salary does not exactly cover child care for three not exactly cover child care for three not exactly cover child care for three kids. So, they couldn't afford the child kids. So, they couldn't afford the child kids. So, they couldn't afford the child care for three kids for both of them to care for three kids for both of them to care for three kids for both of them to work. So, my mother took a a leave of work. So, my mother took a a leave of work. So, my mother took a a leave of absence from work. She did eventually go absence from work. She did eventually go absence from work. She did eventually go back, but she took a 10-year leave of back, but she took a 10-year leave of back, but she took a 10-year leave of absence after I was born. And then when absence after I was born. And then when absence after I was born. And then when I was two, my mother took us to my I was two, my mother took us to my I was two, my mother took us to my grandparents for the weekend. And when grandparents for the weekend. And when grandparents for the weekend. And when we came home, my father was gone. He had we came home, my father was gone. He had we came home, my father was gone. He had taken a car [clears throat] taken a car [clears throat] taken a car [clears throat] and uh left my mom with three kids and and uh left my mom with three kids and and uh left my mom with three kids and and no income literally cuz she was not and no income literally cuz she was not and no income literally cuz she was not working at the time. So, life changed working at the time. So, life changed working at the time. So, life changed pretty dramatically for us. Then I was pretty dramatically for us. Then I was pretty dramatically for us. Then I was again, I was two. I don't remember a lot again, I was two. I don't remember a lot again, I was two. I don't remember a lot of detail early on, but I do remember as of detail early on, but I do remember as of detail early on, but I do remember as a child growing up over that next 10 a child growing up over that next 10 a child growing up over that next 10 years, my mom was home with us really years, my mom was home with us really years, my mom was home with us really just a wonderful childhood. My mother just a wonderful childhood. My mother just a wonderful childhood. My mother was always there. She helped with was always there. She helped with was always there. She helped with homework and she would take me to soccer homework and she would take me to soccer homework and she would take me to soccer practice and basketball practice and practice and basketball practice and practice and basketball practice and majorette practice. I mean, she was majorette practice. I mean, she was majorette practice. I mean, she was always with us and she was just a a always with us and she was just a a always with us and she was just a a wonderful, loving, caring mom. And we wonderful, loving, caring mom. And we wonderful, loving, caring mom. And we didn't have a lot, you know, we lived on didn't have a lot, you know, we lived on didn't have a lot, you know, we lived on $350 a month. my my father's eventually $350 a month. my my father's eventually $350 a month. my my father's eventually paid child support. So, we had, you paid child support. So, we had, you paid child support. So, we had, you know, a lot of support from the church know, a lot of support from the church know, a lot of support from the church and from, you know, friends and family. and from, you know, friends and family. and from, you know, friends and family. But it was a a fun childhood for me. I But it was a a fun childhood for me. I But it was a a fun childhood for me. I mean, my mom was with me and I I think mean, my mom was with me and I I think mean, my mom was with me and I I think she provided a lot of stability for my she provided a lot of stability for my she provided a lot of stability for my brothers and I. And then when I was brothers and I. And then when I was brothers and I. And then when I was getting ready to go from back then, this getting ready to go from back then, this getting ready to go from back then, this is back before middle school. So, you is back before middle school. So, you is back before middle school. So, you went, you know, elementary school, went, you know, elementary school, went, you know, elementary school, junior high school, high school. So, in junior high school, high school. So, in junior high school, high school. So, in sixth grade, you leave elementary school sixth grade, you leave elementary school sixth grade, you leave elementary school and you go to junior high school. So and you go to junior high school. So and you go to junior high school. So >> I was 12 years old, 13 years old, >> I was 12 years old, 13 years old, >> I was 12 years old, 13 years old, becoming a teenager. We were going to a becoming a teenager. We were going to a becoming a teenager. We were going to a new school. I was going to seventh new school. I was going to seventh new school. I was going to seventh grade. My mother went back to work. I grade. My mother went back to work. I grade. My mother went back to work. I was the youngest at the time at 13. She was the youngest at the time at 13. She was the youngest at the time at 13. She felt like we were old enough to be latch felt like we were old enough to be latch felt like we were old enough to be latch key kids and come home and let us in, key kids and come home and let us in, key kids and come home and let us in, you know, be home for a couple hours you know, be home for a couple hours you know, be home for a couple hours every day until she got home from work. every day until she got home from work. every day until she got home from work. So she went back to work in her same So she went back to work in her same So she went back to work in her same role working for her same boss that she role working for her same boss that she role working for her same boss that she left 10 years earlier, which is pretty left 10 years earlier, which is pretty left 10 years earlier, which is pretty amazing. amazing. amazing. >> That is amazing. In fact, that whole >> That is amazing. In fact, that whole >> That is amazing. In fact, that whole 10-year period when my mother was off, 10-year period when my mother was off, 10-year period when my mother was off, also important is how it frames my also important is how it frames my also important is how it frames my context of things is during that 10 context of things is during that 10 context of things is during that 10 years when my mom was home. I remember years when my mom was home. I remember years when my mom was home. I remember her sitting in front of the TV and her sitting in front of the TV and her sitting in front of the TV and taking shortorthhand to the television taking shortorthhand to the television taking shortorthhand to the television and she would like get our favorite and she would like get our favorite and she would like get our favorite records and she would write down in records and she would write down in records and she would write down in shorthand all the words and then she shorthand all the words and then she shorthand all the words and then she would sit at the table and type them all would sit at the table and type them all would sit at the table and type them all up and give us the words so we could up and give us the words so we could up and give us the words so we could sing along with our songs. And you know, sing along with our songs. And you know, sing along with our songs. And you know, I thought it was just mom doing fun I thought it was just mom doing fun I thought it was just mom doing fun things for us, but it was her keeping things for us, but it was her keeping things for us, but it was her keeping her skills, right? My mom when she went her skills, right? My mom when she went her skills, right? My mom when she went back to work after a 10-year break in back to work after a 10-year break in back to work after a 10-year break in service, she still took shorthand at service, she still took shorthand at service, she still took shorthand at like 96 words a minute and still could like 96 words a minute and still could like 96 words a minute and still could type over 100 words a minute. So, type over 100 words a minute. So, type over 100 words a minute. So, >> wow. >> wow. >> wow. >> Just a wonderful example of work ethic >> Just a wonderful example of work ethic >> Just a wonderful example of work ethic for us. She knew she needed to go back for us. She knew she needed to go back for us. She knew she needed to go back to work and wanted to go back to work as to work and wanted to go back to work as to work and wanted to go back to work as soon as possible and she wanted to be on soon as possible and she wanted to be on soon as possible and she wanted to be on her game. So, great childhood. But when her game. So, great childhood. But when her game. So, great childhood. But when I was moving to junior high school, my I was moving to junior high school, my I was moving to junior high school, my mom went back to work. So, I kind of mom went back to work. So, I kind of mom went back to work. So, I kind of lost that guardian, that best friend lost that guardian, that best friend lost that guardian, that best friend like at a critical time, right? Like I'm like at a critical time, right? Like I'm like at a critical time, right? Like I'm becoming a teenager. We were going to a becoming a teenager. We were going to a becoming a teenager. We were going to a new school. They were busing back in new school. They were busing back in new school. They were busing back in those days. So, I was being busted into those days. So, I was being busted into those days. So, I was being busted into a really tough neighborhood in a really tough neighborhood in a really tough neighborhood in Washington DC. Washington DC. Washington DC. >> From Maryland to Washington DC. >> From Maryland to Washington DC. >> From Maryland to Washington DC. >> Right on the border of DC. >> Right on the border of DC. >> Right on the border of DC. >> Can I pause you for one second? >> Can I pause you for one second? >> Can I pause you for one second? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> I'm just trying to put myself, which is >> I'm just trying to put myself, which is >> I'm just trying to put myself, which is impossible for me to do of course, in impossible for me to do of course, in impossible for me to do of course, in your mom's shoes, right? You guys return your mom's shoes, right? You guys return your mom's shoes, right? You guys return to the house, no car, dad's gone, three to the house, no car, dad's gone, three to the house, no car, dad's gone, three kids. Have you spoken to her or do you kids. Have you spoken to her or do you kids. Have you spoken to her or do you have any best guesses as to the other have any best guesses as to the other have any best guesses as to the other things that helped her things that helped her things that helped her hold everything together in terms of hold everything together in terms of hold everything together in terms of resilience or support or anything else? resilience or support or anything else? resilience or support or anything else? I mean, I suppose that necessity is the I mean, I suppose that necessity is the I mean, I suppose that necessity is the mother of invention on some level, but mother of invention on some level, but mother of invention on some level, but have you ever spoken to her about that? have you ever spoken to her about that? have you ever spoken to her about that? >> I did. And you know, it's funny. My >> I did. And you know, it's funny. My >> I did. And you know, it's funny. My mother was very passive, sweet, just mother was very passive, sweet, just mother was very passive, sweet, just kind of a very quiet internal person. kind of a very quiet internal person. kind of a very quiet internal person. >> And in my entire life, I never saw my >> And in my entire life, I never saw my >> And in my entire life, I never saw my mother cry. Never. Never. I mean, under mother cry. Never. Never. I mean, under mother cry. Never. Never. I mean, under any circumstances when I I'm sure she any circumstances when I I'm sure she any circumstances when I I'm sure she did. did. did. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I never really saw my mother cry. >> But I never really saw my mother cry. >> But I never really saw my mother cry. And my grandmother was completely the And my grandmother was completely the And my grandmother was completely the opposite. My mom was an only child. Her opposite. My mom was an only child. Her opposite. My mom was an only child. Her mother was like a pistol. Like hardcore. mother was like a pistol. Like hardcore. mother was like a pistol. Like hardcore. So my grandmother was very helpful, but So my grandmother was very helpful, but So my grandmother was very helpful, but my mother was a rock. I mean, she took my mother was a rock. I mean, she took my mother was a rock. I mean, she took care of us. When I tell people now, we care of us. When I tell people now, we care of us. When I tell people now, we lived on food stamps, welfare. The lived on food stamps, welfare. The lived on food stamps, welfare. The church brought us baskets of food for church brought us baskets of food for church brought us baskets of food for the holidays, but we didn't have a car the holidays, but we didn't have a car the holidays, but we didn't have a car for many years. We finally got a car. It for many years. We finally got a car. It for many years. We finally got a car. It didn't have heat. It used to break down didn't have heat. It used to break down didn't have heat. It used to break down every time we went out in it. You know, every time we went out in it. You know, every time we went out in it. You know, the hot water spet in our bathroom used the hot water spet in our bathroom used the hot water spet in our bathroom used to squirt scalding hot water over you if to squirt scalding hot water over you if to squirt scalding hot water over you if you didn't weren't careful because it you didn't weren't careful because it you didn't weren't careful because it needed a washer and there was nobody to needed a washer and there was nobody to needed a washer and there was nobody to come and fix that washer, you know. So, come and fix that washer, you know. So, come and fix that washer, you know. So, but we had a wonderful childhood. My but we had a wonderful childhood. My but we had a wonderful childhood. My mother was just solid. She loved her mother was just solid. She loved her mother was just solid. She loved her kids and she was a beautiful, beautiful kids and she was a beautiful, beautiful kids and she was a beautiful, beautiful woman. And I always ask her why she woman. And I always ask her why she woman. And I always ask her why she didn't ever date and she's like, "My didn't ever date and she's like, "My didn't ever date and she's like, "My kids were my life and I didn't want kids were my life and I didn't want kids were my life and I didn't want anybody around my children that didn't anybody around my children that didn't anybody around my children that didn't think of them as the same priority that think of them as the same priority that think of them as the same priority that I thought of them." So, I thought of them." So, I thought of them." So, >> I think her resilience was really just >> I think her resilience was really just >> I think her resilience was really just steady for her family. I think her steady for her family. I think her steady for her family. I think her family was her motivation and nothing family was her motivation and nothing family was her motivation and nothing was going to disrupt her commitment was going to disrupt her commitment was going to disrupt her commitment there. there. there. >> Yeah. The singular focus. So, I >> Yeah. The singular focus. So, I >> Yeah. The singular focus. So, I interrupted you. interrupted you. interrupted you. >> That's okay. you were saying there's >> That's okay. you were saying there's >> That's okay. you were saying there's this transition point. You're busing in this transition point. You're busing in this transition point. You're busing in to Washington DC and to Washington DC and to Washington DC and you've sort of lost your guardian in a you've sort of lost your guardian in a you've sort of lost your guardian in a sense. sense. sense. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> At that point. So if if you wouldn't >> At that point. So if if you wouldn't >> At that point. So if if you wouldn't mind picking up there. mind picking up there. mind picking up there. >> So again, we were being busted into a >> So again, we were being busted into a >> So again, we were being busted into a neighborhood. The idea at the time was neighborhood. The idea at the time was neighborhood. The idea at the time was to racially integrate neighborhoods. I to racially integrate neighborhoods. I to racially integrate neighborhoods. I lived in a very small industrial lived in a very small industrial lived in a very small industrial neighborhood, like an industrial park neighborhood, like an industrial park neighborhood, like an industrial park right on the border of Washington DC. right on the border of Washington DC. right on the border of Washington DC. Literally, there was a train that ran Literally, there was a train that ran Literally, there was a train that ran right behind my house in the backyard. right behind my house in the backyard. right behind my house in the backyard. On the other side of that train tracks On the other side of that train tracks On the other side of that train tracks was Washington DC. We were on the was Washington DC. We were on the was Washington DC. We were on the Maryland side. So, they were busing us Maryland side. So, they were busing us Maryland side. So, they were busing us to a school and uh on the border of to a school and uh on the border of to a school and uh on the border of northeast Washington to integrate, you northeast Washington to integrate, you northeast Washington to integrate, you know, racially integrate the schools. know, racially integrate the schools. know, racially integrate the schools. So, each day when our bus would pick us So, each day when our bus would pick us So, each day when our bus would pick us up and take us to school, when our bus up and take us to school, when our bus up and take us to school, when our bus would pull up in front of the school, would pull up in front of the school, would pull up in front of the school, everything in most big cities, I would everything in most big cities, I would everything in most big cities, I would say, but in Washington for sure, is very say, but in Washington for sure, is very say, but in Washington for sure, is very neighborhood based. So when our bus neighborhood based. So when our bus neighborhood based. So when our bus would pull up in front of the school and would pull up in front of the school and would pull up in front of the school and we would get out as the Maryland kids we would get out as the Maryland kids we would get out as the Maryland kids coming to the school, as soon as we'd coming to the school, as soon as we'd coming to the school, as soon as we'd get off the bus, we'd get jumped. Like get off the bus, we'd get jumped. Like get off the bus, we'd get jumped. Like every day there was a fight. every day there was a fight. every day there was a fight. [clears throat] It was a terrible [clears throat] It was a terrible [clears throat] It was a terrible change. You know, all the way through change. You know, all the way through change. You know, all the way through school. I was in the talented and gifted school. I was in the talented and gifted school. I was in the talented and gifted program, straight A student, loved program, straight A student, loved program, straight A student, loved school, and now I'm being busted into a school, and now I'm being busted into a school, and now I'm being busted into a school where the kids that we were going school where the kids that we were going school where the kids that we were going to school with hated us. Was very to school with hated us. Was very to school with hated us. Was very racially charged. It was agonizing to go racially charged. It was agonizing to go racially charged. It was agonizing to go to school because you had to fight just to school because you had to fight just to school because you had to fight just to get from the bus to the classroom. So to get from the bus to the classroom. So to get from the bus to the classroom. So my mom would go, her bus would, it's my mom would go, her bus would, it's my mom would go, her bus would, it's funny now, it wasn't funny then, but her funny now, it wasn't funny then, but her funny now, it wasn't funny then, but her bus would pick her up on the corner at bus would pick her up on the corner at bus would pick her up on the corner at 7:00 in the morning and my bus would 7:00 in the morning and my bus would 7:00 in the morning and my bus would pick me up on the other corner at 7:15. pick me up on the other corner at 7:15. pick me up on the other corner at 7:15. So we'd both go out to the bus stop So we'd both go out to the bus stop So we'd both go out to the bus stop together in the morning and she would together in the morning and she would together in the morning and she would wait for her bus, I'd wait for my bus. wait for her bus, I'd wait for my bus. wait for her bus, I'd wait for my bus. She'd get on her bus and she'd ride by She'd get on her bus and she'd ride by She'd get on her bus and she'd ride by me and I'd wave and then one of my older me and I'd wave and then one of my older me and I'd wave and then one of my older friends who had a car would come and friends who had a car would come and friends who had a car would come and pick me up and we would go skip school pick me up and we would go skip school pick me up and we would go skip school for the day. You know, I at least would for the day. You know, I at least would for the day. You know, I at least would skip the first half. Like I would skip skip the first half. Like I would skip skip the first half. Like I would skip the first few periods so I didn't have the first few periods so I didn't have the first few periods so I didn't have to go through that agonizing, you know, to go through that agonizing, you know, to go through that agonizing, you know, fight every morning fight every morning fight every morning >> entry. >> entry. >> entry. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Rough entry. >> Rough entry. >> Rough entry. >> So I went from, you know, a talented and >> So I went from, you know, a talented and >> So I went from, you know, a talented and gifted student with straight A's to gifted student with straight A's to gifted student with straight A's to failing like literally every subject the failing like literally every subject the failing like literally every subject the first quarter of seventh grade. So I was first quarter of seventh grade. So I was first quarter of seventh grade. So I was chronically truent. I think I was chronically truent. I think I was chronically truent. I think I was averaging 19 days a quarter that I was averaging 19 days a quarter that I was averaging 19 days a quarter that I was actually showing up for school. My actually showing up for school. My actually showing up for school. My mother didn't know because the school mother didn't know because the school mother didn't know because the school never notified her. And by the time she never notified her. And by the time she never notified her. And by the time she got home from work at 6:00 p.m., we were got home from work at 6:00 p.m., we were got home from work at 6:00 p.m., we were all sitting around like pretending to do all sitting around like pretending to do all sitting around like pretending to do our homework. So my poor mother had no our homework. So my poor mother had no our homework. So my poor mother had no idea until about midway through the idea until about midway through the idea until about midway through the eighth grade, I was so chronically eighth grade, I was so chronically eighth grade, I was so chronically truent that I was failing all of my truent that I was failing all of my truent that I was failing all of my major subjects. So meanwhile, while I'm major subjects. So meanwhile, while I'm major subjects. So meanwhile, while I'm skipping school, I'm hanging out with skipping school, I'm hanging out with skipping school, I'm hanging out with the wrong people. Much older crowd, the wrong people. Much older crowd, the wrong people. Much older crowd, friends of my older brother and older, friends of my older brother and older, friends of my older brother and older, you know, just an older crowd and just you know, just an older crowd and just you know, just an older crowd and just getting in trouble. and I fall in love getting in trouble. and I fall in love getting in trouble. and I fall in love with a much older boyfriend at the time, with a much older boyfriend at the time, with a much older boyfriend at the time, think I'm in love and we want to get think I'm in love and we want to get think I'm in love and we want to get married and run away and get married. married and run away and get married. married and run away and get married. And so by the time I was in the ninth And so by the time I was in the ninth And so by the time I was in the ninth grade, I 14 years old, found myself grade, I 14 years old, found myself grade, I 14 years old, found myself pregnant. My boyfriend at the time had pregnant. My boyfriend at the time had pregnant. My boyfriend at the time had given me a diamond ring. We were given me a diamond ring. We were given me a diamond ring. We were engaged. We're going to get married. So engaged. We're going to get married. So engaged. We're going to get married. So we run away. He was 26 at the time. I we run away. He was 26 at the time. I we run away. He was 26 at the time. I was 14. My mother, when she finds out, was 14. My mother, when she finds out, was 14. My mother, when she finds out, was going to have him arrested, right? was going to have him arrested, right? was going to have him arrested, right? So she was going to put him in jail. So, So she was going to put him in jail. So, So she was going to put him in jail. So, I run away from home and think, "Well, I run away from home and think, "Well, I run away from home and think, "Well, we got this. We're going to get married we got this. We're going to get married we got this. We're going to get married and we're going to have the baby and and we're going to have the baby and and we're going to have the baby and everything's going to be great." everything's going to be great." everything's going to be great." The mind of a 14-year-old. The mind of a 14-year-old. The mind of a 14-year-old. Obviously, things didn't work out that Obviously, things didn't work out that Obviously, things didn't work out that way. So, interestingly, I went to my way. So, interestingly, I went to my way. So, interestingly, I went to my father, who had been out of the picture father, who had been out of the picture father, who had been out of the picture most of my life, and asked for him to most of my life, and asked for him to most of my life, and asked for him to sign for me to get married because I had sign for me to get married because I had sign for me to get married because I had to, because of my age, one of my parents to, because of my age, one of my parents to, because of my age, one of my parents had to legally sign over my legal had to legally sign over my legal had to legally sign over my legal guardianship to my husband. guardianship to my husband. guardianship to my husband. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> So they literally signed over my legal >> So they literally signed over my legal >> So they literally signed over my legal guardianship to my husband. So my dad guardianship to my husband. So my dad guardianship to my husband. So my dad thinking he would have one less child to thinking he would have one less child to thinking he would have one less child to pay child support for cuz once he signed pay child support for cuz once he signed pay child support for cuz once he signed over my guardianship he over my guardianship he over my guardianship he >> and cuts the child support bill >> and cuts the child support bill >> and cuts the child support bill >> paid $100 less a month in child support. >> paid $100 less a month in child support. >> paid $100 less a month in child support. So he signed over my legal guardianship So he signed over my legal guardianship So he signed over my legal guardianship to my husband. We got married the day to my husband. We got married the day to my husband. We got married the day after my 15th birthday. I was 8 months after my 15th birthday. I was 8 months after my 15th birthday. I was 8 months pregnant at the time. So, I guess fast pregnant at the time. So, I guess fast pregnant at the time. So, I guess fast forward a little bit, a year and a half forward a little bit, a year and a half forward a little bit, a year and a half later, I was back at home. My mother was later, I was back at home. My mother was later, I was back at home. My mother was taking me to GED classes at night. I was taking me to GED classes at night. I was taking me to GED classes at night. I was sneaking to go to GED classes when I was sneaking to go to GED classes when I was sneaking to go to GED classes when I was still married. My husband didn't approve still married. My husband didn't approve still married. My husband didn't approve of me going to school. So, once we of me going to school. So, once we of me going to school. So, once we separated, my mom made sure I stayed in separated, my mom made sure I stayed in separated, my mom made sure I stayed in school, got my GED. She would bring her school, got my GED. She would bring her school, got my GED. She would bring her typewriter home from work and she taught typewriter home from work and she taught typewriter home from work and she taught me how to type on the kitchen table. So, me how to type on the kitchen table. So, me how to type on the kitchen table. So, she taught me how to type and take a she taught me how to type and take a she taught me how to type and take a little shortorthhand. And I went and got little shortorthhand. And I went and got little shortorthhand. And I went and got a job as a secretary. I lied about my a job as a secretary. I lied about my a job as a secretary. I lied about my age. I went and got a job as a secretary age. I went and got a job as a secretary age. I went and got a job as a secretary when I was 16. So started working as a when I was 16. So started working as a when I was 16. So started working as a secretary and then worked as a waitress secretary and then worked as a waitress secretary and then worked as a waitress in the evening in a bar. Also lied about in the evening in a bar. Also lied about in the evening in a bar. Also lied about my age to work in a bar. That was the my age to work in a bar. That was the my age to work in a bar. That was the only option up in the area where I was only option up in the area where I was only option up in the area where I was working. So for the next several years, working. So for the next several years, working. So for the next several years, I worked two jobs as a secretary and a I worked two jobs as a secretary and a I worked two jobs as a secretary and a waitress. You know, my motivation waitress. You know, my motivation waitress. You know, my motivation really was my son. Mhm. really was my son. Mhm. really was my son. Mhm. >> It was >> It was >> It was kind of a significant moment for me and kind of a significant moment for me and kind of a significant moment for me and I've had a few in my life. When my son I've had a few in my life. When my son I've had a few in my life. When my son was born, I'd never babysat before. I'd was born, I'd never babysat before. I'd was born, I'd never babysat before. I'd never held a baby. I didn't know never held a baby. I didn't know never held a baby. I didn't know anything about babies or children. And anything about babies or children. And anything about babies or children. And when he was born, he was such a good when he was born, he was such a good when he was born, he was such a good baby. His crib was at the end of my bed baby. His crib was at the end of my bed baby. His crib was at the end of my bed in my bedroom. And I'd wake up in the in my bedroom. And I'd wake up in the in my bedroom. And I'd wake up in the morning and he'd be awake and he'd just morning and he'd be awake and he'd just morning and he'd be awake and he'd just be looking at me, waiting for me to wake be looking at me, waiting for me to wake be looking at me, waiting for me to wake up, right? Not crying, [clears throat] up, right? Not crying, [clears throat] up, right? Not crying, [clears throat] not nothing. He would just be looking at not nothing. He would just be looking at not nothing. He would just be looking at me. [laughter] me. [laughter] me. [laughter] And so And so And so >> that is remarkable. >> that is remarkable. >> that is remarkable. >> Yeah. About three weeks into this >> Yeah. About three weeks into this >> Yeah. About three weeks into this experiment, I'm looking at him one experiment, I'm looking at him one experiment, I'm looking at him one morning and it just dawns on me like for morning and it just dawns on me like for morning and it just dawns on me like for the first time that I'm a parent and the first time that I'm a parent and the first time that I'm a parent and that that helpless little baby was that that helpless little baby was that that helpless little baby was completely relying on me. And my mother completely relying on me. And my mother completely relying on me. And my mother was always stressed the importance of was always stressed the importance of was always stressed the importance of education and work to us. And here I education and work to us. And here I education and work to us. And here I was, you know, my husband didn't allow was, you know, my husband didn't allow was, you know, my husband didn't allow me to go to school. I would never be me to go to school. I would never be me to go to school. I would never be able to get a job. And I'm looking at able to get a job. And I'm looking at able to get a job. And I'm looking at this poor little innocent baby and I'm this poor little innocent baby and I'm this poor little innocent baby and I'm thinking, his whole life depends on me. thinking, his whole life depends on me. thinking, his whole life depends on me. and what am I going to be able to and what am I going to be able to and what am I going to be able to provide with a nth grade education and provide with a nth grade education and provide with a nth grade education and not much. not much. not much. So that was a aha moment. So that was a aha moment. So that was a aha moment. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to resist the >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to resist the >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to resist the temptation to ask 300 questions about temptation to ask 300 questions about temptation to ask 300 questions about the last few minutes that you shared the last few minutes that you shared the last few minutes that you shared because we'll we'll end up spending all because we'll we'll end up spending all because we'll we'll end up spending all of our time there if I do that. But I am of our time there if I do that. But I am of our time there if I do that. But I am curious for you. I'm trying to put curious for you. I'm trying to put curious for you. I'm trying to put myself myself myself in your shoes at that young age. in your shoes at that young age. in your shoes at that young age. when you and we we don't need to get when you and we we don't need to get when you and we we don't need to get into the details unless you'd like to into the details unless you'd like to into the details unless you'd like to share, but when you separated from your share, but when you separated from your share, but when you separated from your then husband, like when that happened, then husband, like when that happened, then husband, like when that happened, what did you think was going to become what did you think was going to become what did you think was going to become of you? Like what did you envision of you? Like what did you envision of you? Like what did you envision your path would be at that point? I have your path would be at that point? I have your path would be at that point? I have to imagine that it would have just been to imagine that it would have just been to imagine that it would have just been incredibly challenging. I don't know. incredibly challenging. I don't know. incredibly challenging. I don't know. You can't believe everything you read on You can't believe everything you read on You can't believe everything you read on the internet, but I read that when you the internet, but I read that when you the internet, but I read that when you were a young girl, you dreamed of being were a young girl, you dreamed of being were a young girl, you dreamed of being a lawyer. I don't know if that's true or a lawyer. I don't know if that's true or a lawyer. I don't know if that's true or not. not. not. >> And then flash forward, you go through >> And then flash forward, you go through >> And then flash forward, you go through this entire tumultuous experience and this entire tumultuous experience and this entire tumultuous experience and you land back at home. Where did you you land back at home. Where did you you land back at home. Where did you think your life was headed? Where did think your life was headed? Where did think your life was headed? Where did you think you were headed at that point? you think you were headed at that point? you think you were headed at that point? Well, I knew that with a ninth grade Well, I knew that with a ninth grade Well, I knew that with a ninth grade education and a single mom that I had education and a single mom that I had education and a single mom that I had zero chance of being able to do what I zero chance of being able to do what I zero chance of being able to do what I thought was most important in the world, thought was most important in the world, thought was most important in the world, and that's take care of my son. And when and that's take care of my son. And when and that's take care of my son. And when I first moved back home, I got my GED, I first moved back home, I got my GED, I first moved back home, I got my GED, but I still was not able to easily find but I still was not able to easily find but I still was not able to easily find a job at my age. I was, you know, 16, a job at my age. I was, you know, 16, a job at my age. I was, you know, 16, almost 17. I had to wait till I was 16 almost 17. I had to wait till I was 16 almost 17. I had to wait till I was 16 and nine months to take the test to get and nine months to take the test to get and nine months to take the test to get the GED. the GED. the GED. >> Interestingly, you needed 255 to pass >> Interestingly, you needed 255 to pass >> Interestingly, you needed 255 to pass the test. I got 256. I passed at that the test. I got 256. I passed at that the test. I got 256. I passed at that one point. one point. one point. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Just another little like footnote of my >> Just another little like footnote of my >> Just another little like footnote of my life. life. life. >> Talk about these sliding door moments. >> Talk about these sliding door moments. >> Talk about these sliding door moments. Holy cow. Right. Holy cow. Right. Holy cow. Right. >> So, my mother had always stressed the >> So, my mother had always stressed the >> So, my mother had always stressed the importance of education and work. So, I importance of education and work. So, I importance of education and work. So, I knew I had to go back to school and I knew I had to go back to school and I knew I had to go back to school and I wanted to go to college. I didn't want wanted to go to college. I didn't want wanted to go to college. I didn't want my son to be subject to the same crappy my son to be subject to the same crappy my son to be subject to the same crappy neighborhoods and the same crappy neighborhoods and the same crappy neighborhoods and the same crappy schools that I went to. I wanted him to schools that I went to. I wanted him to schools that I went to. I wanted him to have a real chance. And I knew if I was have a real chance. And I knew if I was have a real chance. And I knew if I was going to do that, I had to go back to going to do that, I had to go back to going to do that, I had to go back to school and get a college education. And school and get a college education. And school and get a college education. And if I didn't do that, he would be doing I if I didn't do that, he would be doing I if I didn't do that, he would be doing I was standing in the same food stamp line was standing in the same food stamp line was standing in the same food stamp line my mother stood in with me. I remember my mother stood in with me. I remember my mother stood in with me. I remember the first day I went to get food stamps the first day I went to get food stamps the first day I went to get food stamps going to the big white building by going to the big white building by going to the big white building by Prince George's Plaza right near my home Prince George's Plaza right near my home Prince George's Plaza right near my home and standing in the same line with my and standing in the same line with my and standing in the same line with my son that I stood in with my mom when I son that I stood in with my mom when I son that I stood in with my mom when I was a kid and I was like this is not my was a kid and I was like this is not my was a kid and I was like this is not my path. This can't be my path. And when I path. This can't be my path. And when I path. This can't be my path. And when I got my job as a secretary, they offered got my job as a secretary, they offered got my job as a secretary, they offered tuition reimbursement to go to college. tuition reimbursement to go to college. tuition reimbursement to go to college. So, I started a community college. I So, I started a community college. I So, I started a community college. I just started taking one class a semester just started taking one class a semester just started taking one class a semester and uh that's where it started, one and uh that's where it started, one and uh that's where it started, one class a semester and they reimbured me class a semester and they reimbured me class a semester and they reimbured me for it. So, [laughter and snorts] for it. So, [laughter and snorts] for it. So, [laughter and snorts] >> so I recall I mean for people who don't >> so I recall I mean for people who don't >> so I recall I mean for people who don't have contacts, we've been we've been have contacts, we've been we've been have contacts, we've been we've been trying to schedule this for a while and trying to schedule this for a while and trying to schedule this for a while and understandably you got a lot of balls to understandably you got a lot of balls to understandably you got a lot of balls to juggle and juggle and juggle and I remember hearing just pieces of your I remember hearing just pieces of your I remember hearing just pieces of your story. This was God, it has to be what, story. This was God, it has to be what, story. This was God, it has to be what, more than a year ago now. I'm sure. Time more than a year ago now. I'm sure. Time more than a year ago now. I'm sure. Time flies, but it's been a it's been a long flies, but it's been a it's been a long flies, but it's been a it's been a long while. And I just remember thinking to while. And I just remember thinking to while. And I just remember thinking to myself, God, I hope someday that we can myself, God, I hope someday that we can myself, God, I hope someday that we can have this conversation on the podcast. have this conversation on the podcast. have this conversation on the podcast. So, I want to thank you again for doing So, I want to thank you again for doing So, I want to thank you again for doing it. How do you then go from there? What it. How do you then go from there? What it. How do you then go from there? What is the connective tissue sort of the is the connective tissue sort of the is the connective tissue sort of the catalyzing events that ultimately get catalyzing events that ultimately get catalyzing events that ultimately get you into law enforcement? Right? What is you into law enforcement? Right? What is you into law enforcement? Right? What is what are the first few dominoes that get what are the first few dominoes that get what are the first few dominoes that get tipped over that start to push you in tipped over that start to push you in tipped over that start to push you in that direction? that direction? that direction? >> So, to be fair, my family is a public >> So, to be fair, my family is a public >> So, to be fair, my family is a public service family. My father was service family. My father was service family. My father was firefighter. My oldest brother had firefighter. My oldest brother had firefighter. My oldest brother had become a firefighter right out of high become a firefighter right out of high become a firefighter right out of high school. My other [clears throat] brother school. My other [clears throat] brother school. My other [clears throat] brother was a police officer. I was working as a was a police officer. I was working as a was a police officer. I was working as a secretary. I was taking that one class a secretary. I was taking that one class a secretary. I was taking that one class a semester working as a secretary trying semester working as a secretary trying semester working as a secretary trying to get my son in private school. I to get my son in private school. I to get my son in private school. I wanted him in private school. I did not wanted him in private school. I did not wanted him in private school. I did not want him going to those schools. I was want him going to those schools. I was want him going to those schools. I was still living in the same crappy still living in the same crappy still living in the same crappy neighborhood, but I wanted my son in a neighborhood, but I wanted my son in a neighborhood, but I wanted my son in a good school. And I saw an ad. I was 23 good school. And I saw an ad. I was 23 good school. And I saw an ad. I was 23 years old. I saw an ad in the Washington years old. I saw an ad in the Washington years old. I saw an ad in the Washington Post for the Metropolitan Police Post for the Metropolitan Police Post for the Metropolitan Police Department. They were hiring. And what Department. They were hiring. And what Department. They were hiring. And what caught my attention, it's a full page ad caught my attention, it's a full page ad caught my attention, it's a full page ad in the post. The half of the page was in the post. The half of the page was in the post. The half of the page was said tuition reimbursement. I'm like, said tuition reimbursement. I'm like, said tuition reimbursement. I'm like, "Oh my god, tuition reimbursement. I'm "Oh my god, tuition reimbursement. I'm "Oh my god, tuition reimbursement. I'm paying for one class a semester. I'm paying for one class a semester. I'm paying for one class a semester. I'm going to take me 30 years to get a going to take me 30 years to get a going to take me 30 years to get a degree." degree." degree." >> So I went with a friend and we went and >> So I went with a friend and we went and >> So I went with a friend and we went and stood in line. They were hiring a stood in line. They were hiring a stood in line. They were hiring a thousand cops. This was during the crack thousand cops. This was during the crack thousand cops. This was during the crack cocaine wars in Washington. Early 1990. cocaine wars in Washington. Early 1990. cocaine wars in Washington. Early 1990. So 500 murders a year. DC was known as So 500 murders a year. DC was known as So 500 murders a year. DC was known as the murder capital of the world at the the murder capital of the world at the the murder capital of the world at the time. So I just went and stood in line time. So I just went and stood in line time. So I just went and stood in line with a thousand other people. Went and with a thousand other people. Went and with a thousand other people. Went and took the test and I came out I want to took the test and I came out I want to took the test and I came out I want to say I came out like 60 out of a thousand say I came out like 60 out of a thousand say I came out like 60 out of a thousand people on that test. So they called me people on that test. So they called me people on that test. So they called me right away. I was the only white female right away. I was the only white female right away. I was the only white female in the room. Right. This is back in the in the room. Right. This is back in the in the room. Right. This is back in the early 90s. Washington DC was about 89% early 90s. Washington DC was about 89% early 90s. Washington DC was about 89% African-American. Right. So I felt the African-American. Right. So I felt the African-American. Right. So I felt the same drive my mother felt taking care of same drive my mother felt taking care of same drive my mother felt taking care of us is that I have a son that needs me. us is that I have a son that needs me. us is that I have a son that needs me. He needs me to provide for him and the He needs me to provide for him and the He needs me to provide for him and the only way I'm going to do this is get a only way I'm going to do this is get a only way I'm going to do this is get a good job. Government job, not a bad good job. Government job, not a bad good job. Government job, not a bad option, and go back to school and get my option, and go back to school and get my option, and go back to school and get my degree. So I got hired by the degree. So I got hired by the degree. So I got hired by the Metropolitan Police in 1990. Started Metropolitan Police in 1990. Started Metropolitan Police in 1990. Started walking a footbeat. My first day out of walking a footbeat. My first day out of walking a footbeat. My first day out of the academy was the Mount Pleasant the academy was the Mount Pleasant the academy was the Mount Pleasant riots. So my first day out of the riots. So my first day out of the riots. So my first day out of the academy, I went to work and didn't come academy, I went to work and didn't come academy, I went to work and didn't come home for 5 days. It was great. Okay, home for 5 days. It was great. Okay, home for 5 days. It was great. Okay, we're gonna double click on that and we're gonna double click on that and we're gonna double click on that and come right back to Mount Pleasant. But come right back to Mount Pleasant. But come right back to Mount Pleasant. But before we do, before we do, before we do, >> I want to know what the entrance exam or >> I want to know what the entrance exam or >> I want to know what the entrance exam or qualification exam was like. qualification exam was like. qualification exam was like. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right. because you you mentioned the GED >> Right. because you you mentioned the GED >> Right. because you you mentioned the GED and like just by sort of the skin of and like just by sort of the skin of and like just by sort of the skin of your teeth getting in, you know, passing your teeth getting in, you know, passing your teeth getting in, you know, passing the hurdle and then it sounds like you the hurdle and then it sounds like you the hurdle and then it sounds like you not very technical term, but kind of not very technical term, but kind of not very technical term, but kind of crushed the crushed the crushed the the examination that you took that the examination that you took that the examination that you took that ultimately placed you at 60 out of a ultimately placed you at 60 out of a ultimately placed you at 60 out of a thousand. What was that test like? thousand. What was that test like? thousand. What was that test like? >> So, remember now when I started going >> So, remember now when I started going >> So, remember now when I started going taking classes at Prince George's taking classes at Prince George's taking classes at Prince George's Community College, my goal was to be a Community College, my goal was to be a Community College, my goal was to be a lawyer. I wanted to be an attorney. lawyer. I wanted to be an attorney. lawyer. I wanted to be an attorney. >> Mhm. I started out wanting to be a >> Mhm. I started out wanting to be a >> Mhm. I started out wanting to be a secretary like my mom. Then once I got secretary like my mom. Then once I got secretary like my mom. Then once I got into the workplace, I realized I wanted into the workplace, I realized I wanted into the workplace, I realized I wanted bigger, better things. So I wanted to be bigger, better things. So I wanted to be bigger, better things. So I wanted to be an attorney. So I was taking political an attorney. So I was taking political an attorney. So I was taking political science, philosophy, a lot of those kind science, philosophy, a lot of those kind science, philosophy, a lot of those kind of courses, getting all my generals out of courses, getting all my generals out of courses, getting all my generals out of the way in community college. So by of the way in community college. So by of the way in community college. So by the time I got to the Metropol Police the time I got to the Metropol Police the time I got to the Metropol Police Department at 23, I had three years of Department at 23, I had three years of Department at 23, I had three years of college courses, right? college courses, right? college courses, right? >> But the exam for entry into policing, >> But the exam for entry into policing, >> But the exam for entry into policing, now back in those days, they only now back in those days, they only now back in those days, they only required a high school diploma or an required a high school diploma or an required a high school diploma or an equivalent. So you didn't need college. equivalent. So you didn't need college. equivalent. So you didn't need college. So the this the entry exam was a lot of So the this the entry exam was a lot of So the this the entry exam was a lot of things that you would expect for law things that you would expect for law things that you would expect for law enforcement. You do a lot of multiple enforcement. You do a lot of multiple enforcement. You do a lot of multiple choice questions. You know, you have to choice questions. You know, you have to choice questions. You know, you have to be able to read and comprehend well. So be able to read and comprehend well. So be able to read and comprehend well. So reading comprehension was a big part of reading comprehension was a big part of reading comprehension was a big part of it. You have to do some basic math, it. You have to do some basic math, it. You have to do some basic math, right? So you have to understand math. right? So you have to understand math. right? So you have to understand math. But there was a lot of problem solving But there was a lot of problem solving But there was a lot of problem solving type questions. So they flash a photo in type questions. So they flash a photo in type questions. So they flash a photo in front of you and then they say you front of you and then they say you front of you and then they say you there's a photo inside of a a department there's a photo inside of a a department there's a photo inside of a a department store. Okay. you just walked into this store. Okay. you just walked into this store. Okay. you just walked into this department store and there's been a department store and there's been a department store and there's been a robbery, right? What is it you noticed robbery, right? What is it you noticed robbery, right? What is it you noticed in that quick three seconds you had to in that quick three seconds you had to in that quick three seconds you had to look at that photo? What do you look at that photo? What do you look at that photo? What do you remember? What time was it on the clock? remember? What time was it on the clock? remember? What time was it on the clock? You know, what color was the lady's You know, what color was the lady's You know, what color was the lady's shoes that was standing at the register? shoes that was standing at the register? shoes that was standing at the register? Right? Like, Right? Like, Right? Like, >> so there was, you know, reading >> so there was, you know, reading >> so there was, you know, reading comprehension, math, problem solving, comprehension, math, problem solving, comprehension, math, problem solving, and then a good bit of are you paying and then a good bit of are you paying and then a good bit of are you paying attention? you have the detail to pay attention? you have the detail to pay attention? you have the detail to pay attention and do the things that you attention and do the things that you attention and do the things that you need to do as a police officer, which need to do as a police officer, which need to do as a police officer, which much of which you learn as a cop. much of which you learn as a cop. much of which you learn as a cop. >> But it seems like you had either >> But it seems like you had either >> But it seems like you had either developed or innately possessed, developed or innately possessed, developed or innately possessed, and maybe I'm reaching, but I mean, and maybe I'm reaching, but I mean, and maybe I'm reaching, but I mean, maybe not. I mean, was there anything in maybe not. I mean, was there anything in maybe not. I mean, was there anything in that test that highlighted, that test that highlighted, that test that highlighted, [snorts] for lack of a better [snorts] for lack of a better [snorts] for lack of a better descriptor, like superpowers, strengths descriptor, like superpowers, strengths descriptor, like superpowers, strengths of yours that came into like full of yours that came into like full of yours that came into like full fruition later where you're like, okay, fruition later where you're like, okay, fruition later where you're like, okay, if I look at the recipe, some of the if I look at the recipe, some of the if I look at the recipe, some of the ingredients of the recipe that ingredients of the recipe that ingredients of the recipe that ultimately contributed to my success, ultimately contributed to my success, ultimately contributed to my success, were any of them sort of revealed in were any of them sort of revealed in were any of them sort of revealed in that test in any way or not really? that test in any way or not really? that test in any way or not really? >> Great question. Actually, it's a very >> Great question. Actually, it's a very >> Great question. Actually, it's a very good question. I don't get a lot of good question. I don't get a lot of good question. I don't get a lot of interviews that ask the types of interviews that ask the types of interviews that ask the types of question you're asking. I think it's a question you're asking. I think it's a question you're asking. I think it's a excellent question. So I I would say the excellent question. So I I would say the excellent question. So I I would say the two things that have helped me in that two things that have helped me in that two things that have helped me in that exam that have helped me most of my law exam that have helped me most of my law exam that have helped me most of my law enforcement career. My grandmother enforcement career. My grandmother enforcement career. My grandmother instilled in me, you know, she spent a instilled in me, you know, she spent a instilled in me, you know, she spent a lot of time with us growing up as well. lot of time with us growing up as well. lot of time with us growing up as well. Two things, problem solving being a big Two things, problem solving being a big Two things, problem solving being a big part of that is is like you never make part of that is is like you never make part of that is is like you never make excuses. When bad things happen, don't excuses. When bad things happen, don't excuses. When bad things happen, don't make excuses. You put yourself in that make excuses. You put yourself in that make excuses. You put yourself in that position. You found yourself here. it is position. You found yourself here. it is position. You found yourself here. it is nobody else's fault but yours. You know, nobody else's fault but yours. You know, nobody else's fault but yours. You know, I'm not an excuse person. I don't make I'm not an excuse person. I don't make I'm not an excuse person. I don't make excuses. If I find myself in a bad excuses. If I find myself in a bad excuses. If I find myself in a bad situation, I did something to get myself situation, I did something to get myself situation, I did something to get myself here and I'm going to get myself out. here and I'm going to get myself out. here and I'm going to get myself out. And that was the way she taught. You get And that was the way she taught. You get And that was the way she taught. You get yourself in, you get yourself out. And yourself in, you get yourself out. And yourself in, you get yourself out. And the other thing she taught me was she's the other thing she taught me was she's the other thing she taught me was she's like, you know, you're going to be like, you know, you're going to be like, you know, you're going to be damned if you do and damned if you damned if you do and damned if you damned if you do and damned if you don't. You better be damned for doing. don't. You better be damned for doing. don't. You better be damned for doing. [clears throat] Like, so you act. [clears throat] Like, so you act. [clears throat] Like, so you act. >> You always act. You don't let your >> You always act. You don't let your >> You always act. You don't let your circumstances circumstances circumstances dictate for you. you act and you take dictate for you. you act and you take dictate for you. you act and you take action and you do. You don't wait for action and you do. You don't wait for action and you do. You don't wait for somebody else to do for you. And those somebody else to do for you. And those somebody else to do for you. And those things were really part of that things were really part of that things were really part of that problem-solving exercise when you're problem-solving exercise when you're problem-solving exercise when you're coming on the police department. And coming on the police department. And coming on the police department. And it's certainly your problem solving it's certainly your problem solving it's certainly your problem solving exercise every day you're on the police exercise every day you're on the police exercise every day you're on the police department. department. department. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It it certainly was for the next 27 >> It it certainly was for the next 27 >> It it certainly was for the next 27 years for me. You can't avoid years for me. You can't avoid years for me. You can't avoid consequences. There's consequences for consequences. There's consequences for consequences. There's consequences for everything that happens. Every decision everything that happens. Every decision everything that happens. Every decision you make has consequences. You can't you make has consequences. You can't you make has consequences. You can't avoid consequences, but you can choose avoid consequences, but you can choose avoid consequences, but you can choose what you do after those things happen. what you do after those things happen. what you do after those things happen. I imagine you've probably not met him, I imagine you've probably not met him, I imagine you've probably not met him, but I interviewed someone named Jaco but I interviewed someone named Jaco but I interviewed someone named Jaco Willink, who's a former Navy Seal Willink, who's a former Navy Seal Willink, who's a former Navy Seal commander many years ago. It was the commander many years ago. It was the commander many years ago. It was the first time he ever did a public first time he ever did a public first time he ever did a public interview. And he wrote a book called interview. And he wrote a book called interview. And he wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. And I feel like your Extreme Ownership. And I feel like your Extreme Ownership. And I feel like your grandmother and what she instilled in grandmother and what she instilled in grandmother and what she instilled in you is in a nutshell exactly the type of you is in a nutshell exactly the type of you is in a nutshell exactly the type of high agency thinking that Jaco talks high agency thinking that Jaco talks high agency thinking that Jaco talks about. It's the same thing. about. It's the same thing. about. It's the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> My grandma would say there there's two >> My grandma would say there there's two >> My grandma would say there there's two types of people in the world. Excuse types of people in the world. Excuse types of people in the world. Excuse people and people who are accountable. people and people who are accountable. people and people who are accountable. And I'm going to be the accountable. And I'm going to be the accountable. And I'm going to be the accountable. >> Let's come back to Mount Pleasant. For >> Let's come back to Mount Pleasant. For >> Let's come back to Mount Pleasant. For people who don't have the historical people who don't have the historical people who don't have the historical context, what were the Mount Pleasant context, what were the Mount Pleasant context, what were the Mount Pleasant riots? And you said right before I asked riots? And you said right before I asked riots? And you said right before I asked about the test, you said it was great. about the test, you said it was great. about the test, you said it was great. And if that is actually not a sarcastic And if that is actually not a sarcastic And if that is actually not a sarcastic statement, but a real sort of statement statement, but a real sort of statement statement, but a real sort of statement of how you felt, I want to know why that of how you felt, I want to know why that of how you felt, I want to know why that was the case. But let's start with just was the case. But let's start with just was the case. But let's start with just a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of >> history for people who who aren't >> history for people who who aren't >> history for people who who aren't familiar. I certainly wasn't with the familiar. I certainly wasn't with the familiar. I certainly wasn't with the Mount Pleasant riots Mount Pleasant riots Mount Pleasant riots >> when I said it was great in terms of >> when I said it was great in terms of >> when I said it was great in terms of being a rookie right out of the academy being a rookie right out of the academy being a rookie right out of the academy and understanding what you've got and understanding what you've got and understanding what you've got yourself into, right? yourself into, right? yourself into, right? >> It was here's what you've got yourself >> It was here's what you've got yourself >> It was here's what you've got yourself into, right? Like you went to work today into, right? Like you went to work today into, right? Like you went to work today and you're not gone home for 5 days, you and you're not gone home for 5 days, you and you're not gone home for 5 days, you know? So the night before my first day know? So the night before my first day know? So the night before my first day out of the academy, there was a pair of out of the academy, there was a pair of out of the academy, there was a pair of police officers walking a foot patrol in police officers walking a foot patrol in police officers walking a foot patrol in in our patrol district. They tried to in our patrol district. They tried to in our patrol district. They tried to place a gentleman under arrest for place a gentleman under arrest for place a gentleman under arrest for drinking in public. He was a Latino drinking in public. He was a Latino drinking in public. He was a Latino male, didn't speak English. We had a big male, didn't speak English. We had a big male, didn't speak English. We had a big problem in our city back in those days. problem in our city back in those days. problem in our city back in those days. Law enforcement, we had very few people Law enforcement, we had very few people Law enforcement, we had very few people in the department that spoke Spanish. We in the department that spoke Spanish. We in the department that spoke Spanish. We had a huge Latino population. There was had a huge Latino population. There was had a huge Latino population. There was a big gap in our community. So, it's a big gap in our community. So, it's a big gap in our community. So, it's really difficult to do any kind of really difficult to do any kind of really difficult to do any kind of effective policing if you're not effective policing if you're not effective policing if you're not communicating with the people in the communicating with the people in the communicating with the people in the community, and we were not. So when this community, and we were not. So when this community, and we were not. So when this officer was trying to place this person officer was trying to place this person officer was trying to place this person under arrest during the handcuffing the under arrest during the handcuffing the under arrest during the handcuffing the the subject after one handcuff was on he the subject after one handcuff was on he the subject after one handcuff was on he turned around pulled the knife on the turned around pulled the knife on the turned around pulled the knife on the officer and the officer shot. So he was officer and the officer shot. So he was officer and the officer shot. So he was shot with one handcuff on so the partner shot with one handcuff on so the partner shot with one handcuff on so the partner of the officer who shot rolled him over of the officer who shot rolled him over of the officer who shot rolled him over put the other handcuff on took the knife put the other handcuff on took the knife put the other handcuff on took the knife away called paramedics. Alls that people away called paramedics. Alls that people away called paramedics. Alls that people saw was a handcuffed person who'd been saw was a handcuffed person who'd been saw was a handcuffed person who'd been shot. M shot. M shot. M >> so the Latino community in that >> so the Latino community in that >> so the Latino community in that neighborhood immediately began, you neighborhood immediately began, you neighborhood immediately began, you know, gathering on the street, large know, gathering on the street, large know, gathering on the street, large crowd. This all happened around 11:30 at crowd. This all happened around 11:30 at crowd. This all happened around 11:30 at night. So by the time I got into the night. So by the time I got into the night. So by the time I got into the station for 5:30 roll call, I show up at station for 5:30 roll call, I show up at station for 5:30 roll call, I show up at 5:30 in the morning. The riot had broken 5:30 in the morning. The riot had broken 5:30 in the morning. The riot had broken out around 1:00 a.m. They had burned out around 1:00 a.m. They had burned out around 1:00 a.m. They had burned several police cars. There was stores several police cars. There was stores several police cars. There was stores that were looted and on fire. I mean, that were looted and on fire. I mean, that were looted and on fire. I mean, there was a big, big deal down in Mount there was a big, big deal down in Mount there was a big, big deal down in Mount Pleasant. So when I got to work my first Pleasant. So when I got to work my first Pleasant. So when I got to work my first day, I walked into the station, said, day, I walked into the station, said, day, I walked into the station, said, "Hi, I'm Kathy Laneir. I'm the, you "Hi, I'm Kathy Laneir. I'm the, you "Hi, I'm Kathy Laneir. I'm the, you know, new rookie from the academy." And know, new rookie from the academy." And know, new rookie from the academy." And they threw me a gas mask and they told they threw me a gas mask and they told they threw me a gas mask and they told me to go out and get in the van. He me to go out and get in the van. He me to go out and get in the van. He said, "Hop over the counter, go out the said, "Hop over the counter, go out the said, "Hop over the counter, go out the back door and get in that van." And I back door and get in that van." And I back door and get in that van." And I was like, "Okay." was like, "Okay." was like, "Okay." So I hopped over the counter and went So I hopped over the counter and went So I hopped over the counter and went and got in that van. I was sitting with and got in that van. I was sitting with and got in that van. I was sitting with 15 other cops with gas mask on and big 15 other cops with gas mask on and big 15 other cops with gas mask on and big riot sticks and they took us down and riot sticks and they took us down and riot sticks and they took us down and they dumped us off on the corner of they dumped us off on the corner of they dumped us off on the corner of Mount Pleasant and Park Road and it was Mount Pleasant and Park Road and it was Mount Pleasant and Park Road and it was fully engulfed in a fires and looting fully engulfed in a fires and looting fully engulfed in a fires and looting and you know people were throwing and you know people were throwing and you know people were throwing bottles and bricks and stones at us. We bottles and bricks and stones at us. We bottles and bricks and stones at us. We had little helmets they had given us in had little helmets they had given us in had little helmets they had given us in the as we were hopping out of the van the as we were hopping out of the van the as we were hopping out of the van and I didn't have a radio because and I didn't have a radio because and I didn't have a radio because rookies weren't allowed to have radios rookies weren't allowed to have radios rookies weren't allowed to have radios at the time, right? I had not been at the time, right? I had not been at the time, right? I had not been trained how to use the radio. So my trained how to use the radio. So my trained how to use the radio. So my partner had the radio. So my lifeline partner had the radio. So my lifeline partner had the radio. So my lifeline was on my partner, but we stood there was on my partner, but we stood there was on my partner, but we stood there online and literally got pelted with online and literally got pelted with online and literally got pelted with bricks and bottles and I mean over the bricks and bottles and I mean over the bricks and bottles and I mean over the course of 5 days. It was trial by fire course of 5 days. It was trial by fire course of 5 days. It was trial by fire for sure. But it was a big learning for sure. But it was a big learning for sure. But it was a big learning experience for me because I understood experience for me because I understood experience for me because I understood the frustration. I understood the the frustration. I understood the the frustration. I understood the frustration. The large number that whole frustration. The large number that whole frustration. The large number that whole community of Mount Pleasant were all community of Mount Pleasant were all community of Mount Pleasant were all Latino. They didn't speak English. The Latino. They didn't speak English. The Latino. They didn't speak English. The cops didn't speak to them very well. I cops didn't speak to them very well. I cops didn't speak to them very well. I mean, nobody could really communicate mean, nobody could really communicate mean, nobody could really communicate with, but the cops were pushing people with, but the cops were pushing people with, but the cops were pushing people around and there was no way to to try around and there was no way to to try around and there was no way to to try and get the story straight and really no and get the story straight and really no and get the story straight and really no effort to get the story straight, right? effort to get the story straight, right? effort to get the story straight, right? To understand the frustration. So, it To understand the frustration. So, it To understand the frustration. So, it was a big learning experience for me as was a big learning experience for me as was a big learning experience for me as I worked my way up the ranks to I worked my way up the ranks to I worked my way up the ranks to understand how important inclusion is in understand how important inclusion is in understand how important inclusion is in the community. If you're a police the community. If you're a police the community. If you're a police officer and you are not embedding officer and you are not embedding officer and you are not embedding yourself in that community and yourself in that community and yourself in that community and understanding who the people are in that understanding who the people are in that understanding who the people are in that community and what their needs are and community and what their needs are and community and what their needs are and how to communicate, you're really not how to communicate, you're really not how to communicate, you're really not going to be successful. going to be successful. going to be successful. >> We're gonna, I imagine, revisit that at >> We're gonna, I imagine, revisit that at >> We're gonna, I imagine, revisit that at some point because it seems to be a some point because it seems to be a some point because it seems to be a consistent thread through a lot of the consistent thread through a lot of the consistent thread through a lot of the work they've done. But I want to spend a work they've done. But I want to spend a work they've done. But I want to spend a little bit more time on Mount Pleasant. little bit more time on Mount Pleasant. little bit more time on Mount Pleasant. I am curious, I suppose, yet again, what I am curious, I suppose, yet again, what I am curious, I suppose, yet again, what that that that maybe showed you about yourself or just maybe showed you about yourself or just maybe showed you about yourself or just highlighted about you constitutionally highlighted about you constitutionally highlighted about you constitutionally or personalitywise, right? Because I or personalitywise, right? Because I or personalitywise, right? Because I would imagine some people could get would imagine some people could get would imagine some people could get dropped in that environment after they dropped in that environment after they dropped in that environment after they just signed up. They're like, "Hey, I'm just signed up. They're like, "Hey, I'm just signed up. They're like, "Hey, I'm just here for tuition reimbursement. just here for tuition reimbursement. just here for tuition reimbursement. Holy shit." Like, I'm getting hit with Holy shit." Like, I'm getting hit with Holy shit." Like, I'm getting hit with bricks. Like, this is not exactly what I bricks. Like, this is not exactly what I bricks. Like, this is not exactly what I thought my first day was going to be. thought my first day was going to be. thought my first day was going to be. and they're out, right? Like I have to and they're out, right? Like I have to and they're out, right? Like I have to imagine that there are some people who imagine that there are some people who imagine that there are some people who would be closer to that. Maybe they would be closer to that. Maybe they would be closer to that. Maybe they didn't quit, but they're probably closer didn't quit, but they're probably closer didn't quit, but they're probably closer to that end of the spectrum. to that end of the spectrum. to that end of the spectrum. And do you thrive in particular in And do you thrive in particular in And do you thrive in particular in intense environments? I wonder, right? intense environments? I wonder, right? intense environments? I wonder, right? Because like in my case, Because like in my case, Because like in my case, constitutionally sort of out of the box, constitutionally sort of out of the box, constitutionally sort of out of the box, little things, especially interpersonal little things, especially interpersonal little things, especially interpersonal things bother me that are kind of things bother me that are kind of things bother me that are kind of trivial, frankly. Like I get all wound trivial, frankly. Like I get all wound trivial, frankly. Like I get all wound up about very stupid things, but in up about very stupid things, but in up about very stupid things, but in crisis situations, crisis situations, crisis situations, you know, the car accident in front of you know, the car accident in front of you know, the car accident in front of me, some guy's got his like leg blown me, some guy's got his like leg blown me, some guy's got his like leg blown apart or whatever. I actually do really apart or whatever. I actually do really apart or whatever. I actually do really I do very well in those environments. I I do very well in those environments. I I do very well in those environments. I don't know why that is. I really have no don't know why that is. I really have no don't know why that is. I really have no idea. Yeah. idea. Yeah. idea. Yeah. >> But was there anything that you noticed >> But was there anything that you noticed >> But was there anything that you noticed about yourself in that type of about yourself in that type of about yourself in that type of environment in those types of environment in those types of environment in those types of circumstances? I think the thing for me circumstances? I think the thing for me circumstances? I think the thing for me that I thrive on is as we're dropped out that I thrive on is as we're dropped out that I thrive on is as we're dropped out down there and they're giving us the down there and they're giving us the down there and they're giving us the riot sticks and the helmets and the gas riot sticks and the helmets and the gas riot sticks and the helmets and the gas mask and they're shooting canisters of mask and they're shooting canisters of mask and they're shooting canisters of gas into the crowd and knowing what gas into the crowd and knowing what gas into the crowd and knowing what started this and how this all blew up. started this and how this all blew up. started this and how this all blew up. I'm thinking to myself, we're not going I'm thinking to myself, we're not going I'm thinking to myself, we're not going about this the right way. Like I was a about this the right way. Like I was a about this the right way. Like I was a rookie. I know nothing about policing rookie. I know nothing about policing rookie. I know nothing about policing other than what I was taught in the other than what I was taught in the other than what I was taught in the academy. So by no means did I think I academy. So by no means did I think I academy. So by no means did I think I was smarter than the guy making the was smarter than the guy making the was smarter than the guy making the command decisions, right? But I'm just command decisions, right? But I'm just command decisions, right? But I'm just looking at it from my perspective and looking at it from my perspective and looking at it from my perspective and going this is just not the right way to going this is just not the right way to going this is just not the right way to do this. like this is we're not going to do this. like this is we're not going to do this. like this is we're not going to win here. That's this is not a win win here. That's this is not a win win here. That's this is not a win situation. This should be done situation. This should be done situation. This should be done differently. And I just always felt like differently. And I just always felt like differently. And I just always felt like from the minute I hit the ground like from the minute I hit the ground like from the minute I hit the ground like watching like analyze the way that we watching like analyze the way that we watching like analyze the way that we were doing things and thinking why are were doing things and thinking why are were doing things and thinking why are we doing this this way? There's a better we doing this this way? There's a better we doing this this way? There's a better way to do these things. And so that's way to do these things. And so that's way to do these things. And so that's the way I felt at Mount Pleasant my the way I felt at Mount Pleasant my the way I felt at Mount Pleasant my first day on the job. You know, really first day on the job. You know, really first day on the job. You know, really hard to explain. I just felt like hard to explain. I just felt like hard to explain. I just felt like there's a problem to be solved here and there's a problem to be solved here and there's a problem to be solved here and we're not going about it in a problem we're not going about it in a problem we're not going about it in a problem solving manner. We're going about it solving manner. We're going about it solving manner. We're going about it with brute force, right? brute force with brute force, right? brute force with brute force, right? brute force doesn't always work. doesn't always work. doesn't always work. >> So, it intrigued me. Every day after >> So, it intrigued me. Every day after >> So, it intrigued me. Every day after that, once the riots were over, I that, once the riots were over, I that, once the riots were over, I started walking a footbeat in the city. started walking a footbeat in the city. started walking a footbeat in the city. Every single day I went to work, I got Every single day I went to work, I got Every single day I went to work, I got to problem solve for to problem solve for to problem solve for six, seven, eight times a day, you know, six, seven, eight times a day, you know, six, seven, eight times a day, you know, and calls for service, 911 calls. You and calls for service, 911 calls. You and calls for service, 911 calls. You respond to people who are in crisis, respond to people who are in crisis, respond to people who are in crisis, people who need help, and you know, you people who need help, and you know, you people who need help, and you know, you get to try and help think through that, get to try and help think through that, get to try and help think through that, help solve the problem. And that's help solve the problem. And that's help solve the problem. And that's that's what I enjoyed doing. It's that's what I enjoyed doing. It's that's what I enjoyed doing. It's frustrating when you're at the bottom of frustrating when you're at the bottom of frustrating when you're at the bottom of the totem pole and you're the line the totem pole and you're the line the totem pole and you're the line officer, right? you're in a chain of officer, right? you're in a chain of officer, right? you're in a chain of command. You can't make certain command. You can't make certain command. You can't make certain decisions. But I did feel like every decisions. But I did feel like every decisions. But I did feel like every single day I went to work, I made a single day I went to work, I made a single day I went to work, I made a difference in someone's life, difference in someone's life, difference in someone's life, >> no matter how small. >> no matter how small. >> no matter how small. >> Yeah. And this was around, tell me if >> Yeah. And this was around, tell me if >> Yeah. And this was around, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, but around 1990 I'm getting this wrong, but around 1990 I'm getting this wrong, but around 1990 or early early 90s. or early early 90s. or early early 90s. >> 1990. >> 1990. >> 1990. >> 1990. >> 1990. >> 1990. >> Yep. 1990. >> Yep. 1990. >> Yep. 1990. >> And you were working your way up the >> And you were working your way up the >> And you were working your way up the ranks. When did you first and we'll ranks. When did you first and we'll ranks. When did you first and we'll certainly talk about kind of the the certainly talk about kind of the the certainly talk about kind of the the good, the bad, and the ugly of that time good, the bad, and the ugly of that time good, the bad, and the ugly of that time frame frame frame in some respects, but when did your in some respects, but when did your in some respects, but when did your first real mentor show up? I have first real mentor show up? I have first real mentor show up? I have different names from doing homework in different names from doing homework in different names from doing homework in front of me. I've got, if I'm saying it front of me. I've got, if I'm saying it front of me. I've got, if I'm saying it correctly, you know, Sonia Proctor, correctly, you know, Sonia Proctor, correctly, you know, Sonia Proctor, [snorts] I've got Charles Ramsay, who [snorts] I've got Charles Ramsay, who [snorts] I've got Charles Ramsay, who might show up a little bit later. I'm might show up a little bit later. I'm might show up a little bit later. I'm not sure exactly on the chronology, but not sure exactly on the chronology, but not sure exactly on the chronology, but were there any critical figures in the were there any critical figures in the were there any critical figures in the first few years who were helpful to you first few years who were helpful to you first few years who were helpful to you or was it really just executing, getting or was it really just executing, getting or was it really just executing, getting the job done, delivering and working the job done, delivering and working the job done, delivering and working your way up? I'm wondering when your your way up? I'm wondering when your your way up? I'm wondering when your first mentor of sorts or kind of first mentor of sorts or kind of first mentor of sorts or kind of [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] I don't want to say guardian, it might I don't want to say guardian, it might I don't want to say guardian, it might not be the right word, but influential not be the right word, but influential not be the right word, but influential figure showed up within policing. figure showed up within policing. figure showed up within policing. >> So, I was an officer and I loved my job. >> So, I was an officer and I loved my job. >> So, I was an officer and I loved my job. I got once I worked my way up, I was I got once I worked my way up, I was I got once I worked my way up, I was foot patrol the first, you know, several foot patrol the first, you know, several foot patrol the first, you know, several months and then I went to motorcycle months and then I went to motorcycle months and then I went to motorcycle school and I got trained to ride a motor school and I got trained to ride a motor school and I got trained to ride a motor and then I was on a motorcycle. I want and then I was on a motorcycle. I want and then I was on a motorcycle. I want to be mobile so I could get around and to be mobile so I could get around and to be mobile so I could get around and you know I love the adrenaline 911 calls you know I love the adrenaline 911 calls you know I love the adrenaline 911 calls getting out there being first on the getting out there being first on the getting out there being first on the scene and and then I got moved up a scene and and then I got moved up a scene and and then I got moved up a little bit more and seniority and I was little bit more and seniority and I was little bit more and seniority and I was in a patrol car and I used to get on the in a patrol car and I used to get on the in a patrol car and I used to get on the radio and I'm like all right dispatcher radio and I'm like all right dispatcher radio and I'm like all right dispatcher I'm in service give me stack me up give I'm in service give me stack me up give I'm in service give me stack me up give me all the calls you got pending you me all the calls you got pending you me all the calls you got pending you know that's been sitting there waiting I know that's been sitting there waiting I know that's been sitting there waiting I I'll take them all. I had a lieutenant I'll take them all. I had a lieutenant I'll take them all. I had a lieutenant who he was like a SWAT team commander who he was like a SWAT team commander who he was like a SWAT team commander guy who got promoted to lieutenant and guy who got promoted to lieutenant and guy who got promoted to lieutenant and they sent him out to patrol which is they sent him out to patrol which is they sent him out to patrol which is like a slap in the face to a SWAT guy, like a slap in the face to a SWAT guy, like a slap in the face to a SWAT guy, right? right? right? >> For sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> Like they hate the patrol stuff. But >> Like they hate the patrol stuff. But >> Like they hate the patrol stuff. But he'd come to my district and he called he'd come to my district and he called he'd come to my district and he called me in his office one day. He's like, "I me in his office one day. He's like, "I me in his office one day. He's like, "I hear you on the radio out there." He's hear you on the radio out there." He's hear you on the radio out there." He's like, "You're really humping." I was like, "You're really humping." I was like, "You're really humping." I was like, "Yeah, I love this job. This is like, "Yeah, I love this job. This is like, "Yeah, I love this job. This is great. It's fun." And he's like, "You're great. It's fun." And he's like, "You're great. It's fun." And he's like, "You're coming up on three years. You're going coming up on three years. You're going coming up on three years. You're going to be eligible for sergeant. You should to be eligible for sergeant. You should to be eligible for sergeant. You should take that sergeant's test." And I was take that sergeant's test." And I was take that sergeant's test." And I was like, "Why would I do that? I like my like, "Why would I do that? I like my like, "Why would I do that? I like my job. like what I'm doing if I take job. like what I'm doing if I take job. like what I'm doing if I take sergeant test and I'm going to get moved sergeant test and I'm going to get moved sergeant test and I'm going to get moved somewhere. He's like, "No, no, you need somewhere. He's like, "No, no, you need somewhere. He's like, "No, no, you need to take the sergeants test." Like, well, to take the sergeants test." Like, well, to take the sergeants test." Like, well, why would I want to do that? And he's why would I want to do that? And he's why would I want to do that? And he's like, "Well, you want to make more like, "Well, you want to make more like, "Well, you want to make more money, right?" And I'm like, "That's a money, right?" And I'm like, "That's a money, right?" And I'm like, "That's a good point." And he said, "And once you good point." And he said, "And once you good point." And he said, "And once you start taking these promotional exams, it start taking these promotional exams, it start taking these promotional exams, it gives you more opportunities to gives you more opportunities to gives you more opportunities to influence the things. You know, I hear influence the things. You know, I hear influence the things. You know, I hear you're trying to change some things. You you're trying to change some things. You you're trying to change some things. You know, why don't you take that exam?" So, know, why don't you take that exam?" So, know, why don't you take that exam?" So, he pushed me pretty hard. And when the he pushed me pretty hard. And when the he pushed me pretty hard. And when the tests announcement came out, he said, tests announcement came out, he said, tests announcement came out, he said, "Come on, I'm going to give you a ride. "Come on, I'm going to give you a ride. "Come on, I'm going to give you a ride. let's go pick up your books. You have a let's go pick up your books. You have a let's go pick up your books. You have a eight-month window to study. He's like, eight-month window to study. He's like, eight-month window to study. He's like, "Let's go pick up your books." "Let's go pick up your books." "Let's go pick up your books." >> So, I was like, "All right." I was a >> So, I was like, "All right." I was a >> So, I was like, "All right." I was a little intimidated. I like, "Okay." So, little intimidated. I like, "Okay." So, little intimidated. I like, "Okay." So, I took that sergeant's test. I was I took that sergeant's test. I was I took that sergeant's test. I was eligible for sergeant at 3 years. I took eligible for sergeant at 3 years. I took eligible for sergeant at 3 years. I took the first sergeants and test. There was the first sergeants and test. There was the first sergeants and test. There was 890 people that were eligible that we 890 people that were eligible that we 890 people that were eligible that we took the test all together. After the took the test all together. After the took the test all together. After the written exam, you go to um an assessment written exam, you go to um an assessment written exam, you go to um an assessment phase where you do a bunch of oral phase where you do a bunch of oral phase where you do a bunch of oral interviews and exercises and paper interviews and exercises and paper interviews and exercises and paper exercises. and I end up coming out exercises. and I end up coming out exercises. and I end up coming out number 13 out of 890 for that. So I got number 13 out of 890 for that. So I got number 13 out of 890 for that. So I got promoted right away. A very young promoted right away. A very young promoted right away. A very young sergeant, 26 years old, three years on sergeant, 26 years old, three years on sergeant, 26 years old, three years on the job. Most of the people I I had a the job. Most of the people I I had a the job. Most of the people I I had a master patrol officer working for me master patrol officer working for me master patrol officer working for me that had more years on the job than I that had more years on the job than I that had more years on the job than I was old. He had 26 years on the job. I was old. He had 26 years on the job. I was old. He had 26 years on the job. I was 26 years old. was 26 years old. was 26 years old. >> So that was the first mentor and he >> So that was the first mentor and he >> So that was the first mentor and he remained a mentor for me for most of my remained a mentor for me for most of my remained a mentor for me for most of my career. career. career. >> What was his name? >> What was his name? >> What was his name? >> Donnie Axom. Donnie Axom. >> Donnie Axom. Donnie Axom. >> Donnie Axom. Donnie Axom. >> These stories are so critical, right? >> These stories are so critical, right? >> These stories are so critical, right? Because I mean people are self-made in Because I mean people are self-made in Because I mean people are self-made in many respects and at the same time you many respects and at the same time you many respects and at the same time you just have to wonder sometimes right if just have to wonder sometimes right if just have to wonder sometimes right if if you didn't have these intervening if you didn't have these intervening if you didn't have these intervening figures figures figures >> nothing like your experience but I had a >> nothing like your experience but I had a >> nothing like your experience but I had a pretty miserable public school pretty miserable public school pretty miserable public school experience when I was growing up and experience when I was growing up and experience when I was growing up and ultimately hadn't even thought of ultimately hadn't even thought of ultimately hadn't even thought of private school and it was there was one private school and it was there was one private school and it was there was one math teacher who was basically like you math teacher who was basically like you math teacher who was basically like you need to get the hell out of here and I need to get the hell out of here and I need to get the hell out of here and I was like yeah yeah yeah out of here to was like yeah yeah yeah out of here to was like yeah yeah yeah out of here to where right and he just kept harping on where right and he just kept harping on where right and he just kept harping on me and then there was one other person me and then there was one other person me and then there was one other person who chimed And then I had two people and who chimed And then I had two people and who chimed And then I had two people and I was like, "Oh, okay. Maybe I should I was like, "Oh, okay. Maybe I should I was like, "Oh, okay. Maybe I should take a look at this." And it was just take a look at this." And it was just take a look at this." And it was just like if that had not happened, who like if that had not happened, who like if that had not happened, who knows, right? Just a lot of question knows, right? Just a lot of question knows, right? Just a lot of question marks. marks. marks. >> Critical. Those mentors are critical. >> Critical. Those mentors are critical. >> Critical. Those mentors are critical. >> What does a sergeant do? I'm embarrassed >> What does a sergeant do? I'm embarrassed >> What does a sergeant do? I'm embarrassed to admit that I have no idea. Like, what to admit that I have no idea. Like, what to admit that I have no idea. Like, what does a sergeant do? does a sergeant do? does a sergeant do? >> This is one of the things that police >> This is one of the things that police >> This is one of the things that police departments do, right? Now that I'm in departments do, right? Now that I'm in departments do, right? Now that I'm in the private sector, I wish the private the private sector, I wish the private the private sector, I wish the private sector had similar structure. So, once sector had similar structure. So, once sector had similar structure. So, once you make sergeant, you start as a you make sergeant, you start as a you make sergeant, you start as a first-line supervisor. So they'll give first-line supervisor. So they'll give first-line supervisor. So they'll give you eight people, eight to 10 people you eight people, eight to 10 people you eight people, eight to 10 people that that you're responsible for. So that that you're responsible for. So that that you're responsible for. So you're the squad sergeant. Like you have you're the squad sergeant. Like you have you're the squad sergeant. Like you have a squad that's assigned to you. Those a squad that's assigned to you. Those a squad that's assigned to you. Those eight to 10 people, they report to you. eight to 10 people, they report to you. eight to 10 people, they report to you. So I'm responsible for making sure when So I'm responsible for making sure when So I'm responsible for making sure when we pop out a roll call and we hit the we pop out a roll call and we hit the we pop out a roll call and we hit the street that that my squad of eight is street that that my squad of eight is street that that my squad of eight is doing what they're supposed to do. doing what they're supposed to do. doing what they're supposed to do. They're clearing their calls. They're They're clearing their calls. They're They're clearing their calls. They're taking reports like they're supposed to. taking reports like they're supposed to. taking reports like they're supposed to. If they get in a situation where they If they get in a situation where they If they get in a situation where they don't know what to do, they go over the don't know what to do, they go over the don't know what to do, they go over the radio call for me. I go down and help radio call for me. I go down and help radio call for me. I go down and help them work through that situation. And I them work through that situation. And I them work through that situation. And I help teach them how to manage these help teach them how to manage these help teach them how to manage these situations. So, you're first line situations. So, you're first line situations. So, you're first line supervision. You're right there every supervision. You're right there every supervision. You're right there every day on the street with the 911 day on the street with the 911 day on the street with the 911 responders and you're helping them responders and you're helping them responders and you're helping them manage those calls and you're helping manage those calls and you're helping manage those calls and you're helping them manage how to solve those problems. them manage how to solve those problems. them manage how to solve those problems. You're signing arrest paperwork. You You're signing arrest paperwork. You You're signing arrest paperwork. You know, if you make an arrest, wait a know, if you make an arrest, wait a know, if you make an arrest, wait a minute, let me let me look at all the minute, let me let me look at all the minute, let me let me look at all the probable calls you have here before we probable calls you have here before we probable calls you have here before we put this person in handcuffs or if you put this person in handcuffs or if you put this person in handcuffs or if you got the person in handcuffs when I get got the person in handcuffs when I get got the person in handcuffs when I get on the scene, let's review what you got on the scene, let's review what you got on the scene, let's review what you got here, right? Before we take somebody to here, right? Before we take somebody to here, right? Before we take somebody to jail, let's make sure we we've met the jail, let's make sure we we've met the jail, let's make sure we we've met the DC code, right? We know that you've got DC code, right? We know that you've got DC code, right? We know that you've got a legitimate arrest here. You start a legitimate arrest here. You start a legitimate arrest here. You start managing a small group and then the next managing a small group and then the next managing a small group and then the next level is manager. Then you become a level is manager. Then you become a level is manager. Then you become a lieutenant and then they give you like lieutenant and then they give you like lieutenant and then they give you like 40 people to manage and you start making 40 people to manage and you start making 40 people to manage and you start making little bigger decisions. Now you're little bigger decisions. Now you're little bigger decisions. Now you're scheduling, you're assigning, you're scheduling, you're assigning, you're scheduling, you're assigning, you're working through warrants and things like working through warrants and things like working through warrants and things like that. So it's a very gradual that. So it's a very gradual that. So it's a very gradual progression. progression. progression. In that time frame, In that time frame, In that time frame, early 90s or just 90s I suppose at early 90s or just 90s I suppose at early 90s or just 90s I suppose at large, what was it like being a woman in large, what was it like being a woman in large, what was it like being a woman in the police force? the police force? the police force? >> It was a really tough environment when I >> It was a really tough environment when I >> It was a really tough environment when I first got there. There were a few days first got there. There were a few days first got there. There were a few days in the very beginning when I was an in the very beginning when I was an in the very beginning when I was an officer that you know the good thing officer that you know the good thing officer that you know the good thing about the officer like when I got there about the officer like when I got there about the officer like when I got there the department was the department was the department was 85 probably% 85 probably% 85 probably% African-Amean. And the city was largely African-Amean. And the city was largely African-Amean. And the city was largely 89% African-American. So largely 89% African-American. So largely 89% African-American. So largely African-American, certainly very few African-American, certainly very few African-American, certainly very few white females. It was very few females. white females. It was very few females. white females. It was very few females. So I would think we were about 11% women So I would think we were about 11% women So I would think we were about 11% women on the department of 5,000. 5200 I think on the department of 5,000. 5200 I think on the department of 5,000. 5200 I think when I came on size of our department. when I came on size of our department. when I came on size of our department. So very few women, very few white women. So very few women, very few white women. So very few women, very few white women. It's hard to think back to 199. Sexual It's hard to think back to 199. Sexual It's hard to think back to 199. Sexual harassment was common place. Nobody harassment was common place. Nobody harassment was common place. Nobody talked about it. Nobody cared about it. talked about it. Nobody cared about it. talked about it. Nobody cared about it. It wasn't an issue. Like it just it it It wasn't an issue. Like it just it it It wasn't an issue. Like it just it it happened every day and you just, you happened every day and you just, you happened every day and you just, you know, you work through it. I grew up know, you work through it. I grew up know, you work through it. I grew up with two older brothers, so I kind of with two older brothers, so I kind of with two older brothers, so I kind of knew how to navigate it a little bit. knew how to navigate it a little bit. knew how to navigate it a little bit. You know, I listened. My brothers gave You know, I listened. My brothers gave You know, I listened. My brothers gave me advice how to deal with some of this. me advice how to deal with some of this. me advice how to deal with some of this. The good thing is as an officer, you The good thing is as an officer, you The good thing is as an officer, you very quickly establish yourself. And I very quickly establish yourself. And I very quickly establish yourself. And I established myself as an officer early established myself as an officer early established myself as an officer early on as a worker. Like, I came to work, I on as a worker. Like, I came to work, I on as a worker. Like, I came to work, I did my job. I don't need anybody to do did my job. I don't need anybody to do did my job. I don't need anybody to do me any favors. You don't need to look me any favors. You don't need to look me any favors. You don't need to look out for me. I don't need a partner. I out for me. I don't need a partner. I out for me. I don't need a partner. I can ride by myself. I'm good. Once I can ride by myself. I'm good. Once I can ride by myself. I'm good. Once I made sergeant though, the harassment got made sergeant though, the harassment got made sergeant though, the harassment got worse. I mean, I I had a lieutenant that worse. I mean, I I had a lieutenant that worse. I mean, I I had a lieutenant that was really really sexually harassing. I was really really sexually harassing. I was really really sexually harassing. I mean, not just me, but several women, mean, not just me, but several women, mean, not just me, but several women, physical harassment. I mean, like physical harassment. I mean, like physical harassment. I mean, like getting you in a on a midnight shift in getting you in a on a midnight shift in getting you in a on a midnight shift in a sergeant's office and closing the door a sergeant's office and closing the door a sergeant's office and closing the door and, you know, putting her hands on you and, you know, putting her hands on you and, you know, putting her hands on you and things like that. And I remember and things like that. And I remember and things like that. And I remember saying to my boyfriend at the time, I saying to my boyfriend at the time, I saying to my boyfriend at the time, I was like, "You know what? I got real was like, "You know what? I got real was like, "You know what? I got real thick skin. I could take all kinds of thick skin. I could take all kinds of thick skin. I could take all kinds of comments. I don't mind any of that comments. I don't mind any of that comments. I don't mind any of that stuff, but I'm not going to let people stuff, but I'm not going to let people stuff, but I'm not going to let people put their hands on me. That's just not put their hands on me. That's just not put their hands on me. That's just not going to happen." So the harassment was going to happen." So the harassment was going to happen." So the harassment was pretty intense. It was a it was a really pretty intense. It was a it was a really pretty intense. It was a it was a really tough environment. tough environment. tough environment. >> So what happened? >> So what happened? >> So what happened? >> I eventually >> I eventually >> I eventually So I had a a lieutenant when I made So I had a a lieutenant when I made So I had a a lieutenant when I made sergeant. I was sent over to um sergeant. I was sent over to um sergeant. I was sent over to um southeast Washington. I was patrolling southeast Washington. I was patrolling southeast Washington. I was patrolling in southeast. I had really a good squad. in southeast. I had really a good squad. in southeast. I had really a good squad. I worked nights, permanent nights. So I I worked nights, permanent nights. So I I worked nights, permanent nights. So I had a lieutenant that was harassing me had a lieutenant that was harassing me had a lieutenant that was harassing me and some other women, but me pretty and some other women, but me pretty and some other women, but me pretty intensely. calling me on the radio, intensely. calling me on the radio, intensely. calling me on the radio, forcing me to drive him around, putting forcing me to drive him around, putting forcing me to drive him around, putting me in his cruiser with them, making me me in his cruiser with them, making me me in his cruiser with them, making me drive him around, drive him around, drive him around, just not letting me do my job, constant just not letting me do my job, constant just not letting me do my job, constant harassment, calling me on the radio, harassment, calling me on the radio, harassment, calling me on the radio, bringing me to the office, make me drive bringing me to the office, make me drive bringing me to the office, make me drive him somewhere, things like that. So, I him somewhere, things like that. So, I him somewhere, things like that. So, I finally, after several times of asking finally, after several times of asking finally, after several times of asking him to leave me alone, I finally filed a him to leave me alone, I finally filed a him to leave me alone, I finally filed a sexual harassment complaint. He had put sexual harassment complaint. He had put sexual harassment complaint. He had put his hands on me several times. So, I his hands on me several times. So, I his hands on me several times. So, I filed a complaint and I remember going filed a complaint and I remember going filed a complaint and I remember going down to the EEO office and filing this down to the EEO office and filing this down to the EEO office and filing this complaint and they asked me to write a complaint and they asked me to write a complaint and they asked me to write a list of anybody who had ever Well, first list of anybody who had ever Well, first list of anybody who had ever Well, first of all, before I went down, my partner, of all, before I went down, my partner, of all, before I went down, my partner, one of my fellow sergeants who was a a one of my fellow sergeants who was a a one of my fellow sergeants who was a a black male officer said to me one day, black male officer said to me one day, black male officer said to me one day, we were out riding together. The we were out riding together. The we were out riding together. The lieutenant had called me in and my lieutenant had called me in and my lieutenant had called me in and my partner said to me, the other sergeant partner said to me, the other sergeant partner said to me, the other sergeant said, "How long are you going to let said, "How long are you going to let said, "How long are you going to let this keep going on before you do this keep going on before you do this keep going on before you do something about it?" something about it?" something about it?" >> And I was like, "What are you talking >> And I was like, "What are you talking >> And I was like, "What are you talking about?" He's like, "I hope you're about?" He's like, "I hope you're about?" He's like, "I hope you're writing this stuff down. I hope you're writing this stuff down. I hope you're writing this stuff down. I hope you're going to say something to somebody going to say something to somebody going to say something to somebody because this can't go on like this." because this can't go on like this." because this can't go on like this." Again, a man, not a woman, another male Again, a man, not a woman, another male Again, a man, not a woman, another male police officer basically said to me, "If police officer basically said to me, "If police officer basically said to me, "If you're not going to stand up for you're not going to stand up for you're not going to stand up for yourself, nobody else is going to stand yourself, nobody else is going to stand yourself, nobody else is going to stand up for you." And so when he said that, up for you." And so when he said that, up for you." And so when he said that, it clicked and like he's trying to say it clicked and like he's trying to say it clicked and like he's trying to say either you're going to allow this to either you're going to allow this to either you're going to allow this to keep happening or you don't want it to keep happening or you don't want it to keep happening or you don't want it to happen and you do something about it. So happen and you do something about it. So happen and you do something about it. So I after that conversation, I filed this I after that conversation, I filed this I after that conversation, I filed this complaint. complaint. complaint. I list all the people who had witnessed I list all the people who had witnessed I list all the people who had witnessed because my harasser made no no effort to because my harasser made no no effort to because my harasser made no no effort to hide it. He made horrible comments and hide it. He made horrible comments and hide it. He made horrible comments and grabbed women in front of others all the grabbed women in front of others all the grabbed women in front of others all the time. So I listed 17 different witnesses time. So I listed 17 different witnesses time. So I listed 17 different witnesses and they did the investigation and and they did the investigation and and they did the investigation and literally I left the EEO office. I went literally I left the EEO office. I went literally I left the EEO office. I went to court. I had court that day and I was to court. I had court that day and I was to court. I had court that day and I was in court 20 minutes after I left the EEO in court 20 minutes after I left the EEO in court 20 minutes after I left the EEO office from filing my complaint. My office from filing my complaint. My office from filing my complaint. My harasser, the lieutenant, texted me on harasser, the lieutenant, texted me on harasser, the lieutenant, texted me on my beeper, and we had beepers back then, my beeper, and we had beepers back then, my beeper, and we had beepers back then, [clears throat] and said, "I know what [clears throat] and said, "I know what [clears throat] and said, "I know what you're doing, and you're not going to you're doing, and you're not going to you're doing, and you're not going to get away with this." Like, so it was get away with this." Like, so it was get away with this." Like, so it was supposed to be confidential, but within supposed to be confidential, but within supposed to be confidential, but within 20 minutes of leaving the office, the 20 minutes of leaving the office, the 20 minutes of leaving the office, the person who was doing my investigation person who was doing my investigation person who was doing my investigation called him and told him that I had made called him and told him that I had made called him and told him that I had made a complaint. a complaint. a complaint. >> Gross. >> Gross. >> Gross. >> So, I had to go back to work in that >> So, I had to go back to work in that >> So, I had to go back to work in that environment, one of the most violent environment, one of the most violent environment, one of the most violent areas of Washington DC. From that day areas of Washington DC. From that day areas of Washington DC. From that day forward, he prohibited me from forward, he prohibited me from forward, he prohibited me from partnering with anybody. He refused to partnering with anybody. He refused to partnering with anybody. He refused to allow me to ride with anybody else. He allow me to ride with anybody else. He allow me to ride with anybody else. He continued the harassment. He, you know, continued the harassment. He, you know, continued the harassment. He, you know, came into my office the next day, shut came into my office the next day, shut came into my office the next day, shut the door and said, "Look, I know that the door and said, "Look, I know that the door and said, "Look, I know that what you're doing. You need to back what you're doing. You need to back what you're doing. You need to back down. You need to withdraw this down. You need to withdraw this down. You need to withdraw this complaint. You're not going to win." complaint. You're not going to win." complaint. You're not going to win." They sustained the complaint. So, the They sustained the complaint. So, the They sustained the complaint. So, the investigation, all the witnesses I investigation, all the witnesses I investigation, all the witnesses I listed, they were all men. I didn't listed, they were all men. I didn't listed, they were all men. I didn't think any of them would tell the truth. think any of them would tell the truth. think any of them would tell the truth. Nobody wanted to go against us, a higher Nobody wanted to go against us, a higher Nobody wanted to go against us, a higher ranking person. And every ranking person. And every ranking person. And every [clears throat] single one of them told [clears throat] single one of them told [clears throat] single one of them told the truth. They all wrote down what they the truth. They all wrote down what they the truth. They all wrote down what they saw. They all not only talked about what saw. They all not only talked about what saw. They all not only talked about what they saw him doing to me, but what they they saw him doing to me, but what they they saw him doing to me, but what they saw him doing to other women. And I was saw him doing to other women. And I was saw him doing to other women. And I was just shocked. just shocked. just shocked. >> I [clears throat] always say to women, >> I [clears throat] always say to women, >> I [clears throat] always say to women, you don't realize when you're in these you don't realize when you're in these you don't realize when you're in these scenarios, decent men that observe these scenarios, decent men that observe these scenarios, decent men that observe these things going on, they don't like it things going on, they don't like it things going on, they don't like it either, right? They don't like it either, right? They don't like it either, right? They don't like it either. And and those other men that I either. And and those other men that I either. And and those other men that I was working with, they didn't like it was working with, they didn't like it was working with, they didn't like it either. And some of them, this guy had either. And some of them, this guy had either. And some of them, this guy had harassed their girlfriends or their harassed their girlfriends or their harassed their girlfriends or their wives or, you know what I mean? So wives or, you know what I mean? So wives or, you know what I mean? So that really made an impression on me that really made an impression on me that really made an impression on me that so many of the men that I work with that so many of the men that I work with that so many of the men that I work with stood up and did the right thing there. stood up and did the right thing there. stood up and did the right thing there. So when when it was time for him to be So when when it was time for him to be So when when it was time for him to be disciplined for this, when we got to disciplined for this, when we got to disciplined for this, when we got to trial board, I walk into trial board for trial board, I walk into trial board for trial board, I walk into trial board for the discipline to come down and they the discipline to come down and they the discipline to come down and they told me they had to drop the whole case told me they had to drop the whole case told me they had to drop the whole case and throw it out. And I'm like, why? and throw it out. And I'm like, why? and throw it out. And I'm like, why? What happened? And they said, well, we What happened? And they said, well, we What happened? And they said, well, we missed the 90 days. In the District of missed the 90 days. In the District of missed the 90 days. In the District of Columbia, you have to bring discipline Columbia, you have to bring discipline Columbia, you have to bring discipline within 90 days of the day that you knew within 90 days of the day that you knew within 90 days of the day that you knew or should have known about the or should have known about the or should have known about the misconduct. They sat on this misconduct. They sat on this misconduct. They sat on this investigation till day 91 and then investigation till day 91 and then investigation till day 91 and then turned it in. So, literally after all of turned it in. So, literally after all of turned it in. So, literally after all of that, they threw the case out and they that, they threw the case out and they that, they threw the case out and they said, "Well, we'll just transfer you. said, "Well, we'll just transfer you. said, "Well, we'll just transfer you. Where do you want to be transferred to?" Where do you want to be transferred to?" Where do you want to be transferred to?" I was like, "I don't want to be I was like, "I don't want to be I was like, "I don't want to be transferred. I didn't do anything wrong. transferred. I didn't do anything wrong. transferred. I didn't do anything wrong. I don't transfer me. Transfer him. I I don't transfer me. Transfer him. I I don't transfer me. Transfer him. I didn't do anything." He later had didn't do anything." He later had didn't do anything." He later had several other complaints come forward several other complaints come forward several other complaints come forward and eventually was terminated for a and eventually was terminated for a and eventually was terminated for a severe case with another multiple other severe case with another multiple other severe case with another multiple other subordinates later on. subordinates later on. subordinates later on. >> But I will [snorts] tell you this now, >> But I will [snorts] tell you this now, >> But I will [snorts] tell you this now, everything above the rank of captain in everything above the rank of captain in everything above the rank of captain in the police department is appointed, the police department is appointed, the police department is appointed, right? You civil service exam for right? You civil service exam for right? You civil service exam for sergeant, lieutenant, and captain. After sergeant, lieutenant, and captain. After sergeant, lieutenant, and captain. After captain, it's appointed by the chief of captain, it's appointed by the chief of captain, it's appointed by the chief of police. You're an appointed rank. And police. You're an appointed rank. And police. You're an appointed rank. And you're also at will. So if you can get you're also at will. So if you can get you're also at will. So if you can get appointed to inspector or commander, but appointed to inspector or commander, but appointed to inspector or commander, but you also can get demoted with no cause you also can get demoted with no cause you also can get demoted with no cause either. So I remember one of my mentors, either. So I remember one of my mentors, either. So I remember one of my mentors, another mentor, a lieutenant, there was another mentor, a lieutenant, there was another mentor, a lieutenant, there was a captain and a lieutenant that were a captain and a lieutenant that were a captain and a lieutenant that were both good mentors to me there. The both good mentors to me there. The both good mentors to me there. The captain of the two mentors I had there captain of the two mentors I had there captain of the two mentors I had there pulled me aside after this complaint and pulled me aside after this complaint and pulled me aside after this complaint and said, "You did the right thing. He's said, "You did the right thing. He's said, "You did the right thing. He's been harassing women here for years and been harassing women here for years and been harassing women here for years and somebody needed to stand up, so you did somebody needed to stand up, so you did somebody needed to stand up, so you did the right thing." He said, "But just the right thing." He said, "But just the right thing." He said, "But just know you'll never make it past the rank know you'll never make it past the rank know you'll never make it past the rank of captain." because my that lieutenant of captain." because my that lieutenant of captain." because my that lieutenant was very well connected at the time to was very well connected at the time to was very well connected at the time to the chief of police. So very friendly the chief of police. So very friendly the chief of police. So very friendly with the chief of police that whole with the chief of police that whole with the chief of police that whole administration. So I said that's fine. administration. So I said that's fine. administration. So I said that's fine. Like that's fine. I wasn't thinking, you Like that's fine. I wasn't thinking, you Like that's fine. I wasn't thinking, you know, long-term longevity and promotion. know, long-term longevity and promotion. know, long-term longevity and promotion. >> That actually ties into what I was going >> That actually ties into what I was going >> That actually ties into what I was going to ask you because it strikes me as to ask you because it strikes me as to ask you because it strikes me as an incredibly brave thing to do. I an incredibly brave thing to do. I an incredibly brave thing to do. I imagine not everyone in your situation imagine not everyone in your situation imagine not everyone in your situation would have done that. I mean, in fact, would have done that. I mean, in fact, would have done that. I mean, in fact, they didn't, right? I imagine there's a they didn't, right? I imagine there's a they didn't, right? I imagine there's a lot of fear around there could be a lot lot of fear around there could be a lot lot of fear around there could be a lot of fear around the political or job, you of fear around the political or job, you of fear around the political or job, you know, professional repercussions of know, professional repercussions of know, professional repercussions of voicing something like that, especially voicing something like that, especially voicing something like that, especially during a period when that was not during a period when that was not during a period when that was not common. common. common. >> Well, remember my driver in life, Tim, >> Well, remember my driver in life, Tim, >> Well, remember my driver in life, Tim, if you think about this and harassers if you think about this and harassers if you think about this and harassers work this way. My goal in life is to work this way. My goal in life is to work this way. My goal in life is to take care of my son. I'm a single mom. take care of my son. I'm a single mom. take care of my son. I'm a single mom. After he knew I made a complaint, he was After he knew I made a complaint, he was After he knew I made a complaint, he was threatening my job. He was really making threatening my job. He was really making threatening my job. He was really making it very difficult for me to come to it very difficult for me to come to it very difficult for me to come to work. like it was terrifying to come to work. like it was terrifying to come to work. like it was terrifying to come to work, you know, and I was fighting for work, you know, and I was fighting for work, you know, and I was fighting for my job. I can't lose my job. I have a my job. I can't lose my job. I have a my job. I can't lose my job. I have a son to take care of and I'm not going to son to take care of and I'm not going to son to take care of and I'm not going to lose my job because somebody wants to be lose my job because somebody wants to be lose my job because somebody wants to be a bully. And that's the motivation. It a bully. And that's the motivation. It a bully. And that's the motivation. It was it was terrible. I was sick to my was it was terrible. I was sick to my was it was terrible. I was sick to my stomach every day. I was going in the stomach every day. I was going in the stomach every day. I was going in the bathroom and throwing up. I mean, it was bathroom and throwing up. I mean, it was bathroom and throwing up. I mean, it was when I got to work and just every time I when I got to work and just every time I when I got to work and just every time I heard his voice on the radio, it was heard his voice on the radio, it was heard his voice on the radio, it was terrible for me. But I also couldn't terrible for me. But I also couldn't terrible for me. But I also couldn't afford to lose my job. I was not going afford to lose my job. I was not going afford to lose my job. I was not going to let somebody force me out of my goal. to let somebody force me out of my goal. to let somebody force me out of my goal. I had a son to take care of, so I I had a son to take care of, so I I had a son to take care of, so I couldn't afford that. I was going to couldn't afford that. I was going to couldn't afford that. I was going to fight until I knew that I was safe. fight until I knew that I was safe. fight until I knew that I was safe. >> Yeah. I mean, it's sort of focusing >> Yeah. I mean, it's sort of focusing >> Yeah. I mean, it's sort of focusing forcing function, right? I mean, having forcing function, right? I mean, having forcing function, right? I mean, having that singular priority. So, it seems that singular priority. So, it seems that singular priority. So, it seems like I mean, the predictions about you like I mean, the predictions about you like I mean, the predictions about you never rising above the rank of what was never rising above the rank of what was never rising above the rank of what was it? Captain. it? Captain. it? Captain. >> Captain >> Captain >> Captain >> seems like that fellow wasn't exactly >> seems like that fellow wasn't exactly >> seems like that fellow wasn't exactly the the Nostradamus of of predicting the the the Nostradamus of of predicting the the the Nostradamus of of predicting the future. So could you walk us through future. So could you walk us through future. So could you walk us through sort of how things sort of how things sort of how things progressed and why were you able to progressed and why were you able to progressed and why were you able to continue to excel? Did his prediction continue to excel? Did his prediction continue to excel? Did his prediction just turn out to be completely false? just turn out to be completely false? just turn out to be completely false? >> I think it would have been accurate. I I >> I think it would have been accurate. I I >> I think it would have been accurate. I I tell you what it the stars aligned for tell you what it the stars aligned for tell you what it the stars aligned for me. So I took sergeant test at three me. So I took sergeant test at three me. So I took sergeant test at three years. I was eligible for lieutenant at years. I was eligible for lieutenant at years. I was eligible for lieutenant at five. I took the lieutenant's test at five. I took the lieutenant's test at five. I took the lieutenant's test at five years. I came in number one on that five years. I came in number one on that five years. I came in number one on that test. I took the captain's test seven test. I took the captain's test seven test. I took the captain's test seven years. I came in number three on that years. I came in number three on that years. I came in number three on that test. So I got promoted bang bang bang. test. So I got promoted bang bang bang. test. So I got promoted bang bang bang. three years, five years, seven years. I three years, five years, seven years. I three years, five years, seven years. I was a captain for seven years. I would was a captain for seven years. I would was a captain for seven years. I would have never gone past the rank of captain have never gone past the rank of captain have never gone past the rank of captain in that current administration. And then in that current administration. And then in that current administration. And then Mary and Barry gets arrested, our mayor. Mary and Barry gets arrested, our mayor. Mary and Barry gets arrested, our mayor. >> Mary and Barry is taken out and replaced >> Mary and Barry is taken out and replaced >> Mary and Barry is taken out and replaced by the control board. The control board by the control board. The control board by the control board. The control board comes in 1998. I'm a captain at the comes in 1998. I'm a captain at the comes in 1998. I'm a captain at the time. Mayor and Barry is now taken out time. Mayor and Barry is now taken out time. Mayor and Barry is now taken out of play. The control board takes over. of play. The control board takes over. of play. The control board takes over. They bring in Chuck Ramsay, an outsider They bring in Chuck Ramsay, an outsider They bring in Chuck Ramsay, an outsider who knows nobody who knows nobody who knows nobody >> in the department. He doesn't know >> in the department. He doesn't know >> in the department. He doesn't know anybody. He's got no click. He's got no anybody. He's got no click. He's got no anybody. He's got no click. He's got no boys. boys. boys. >> Everybody's fresh. So, he comes in as >> Everybody's fresh. So, he comes in as >> Everybody's fresh. So, he comes in as I'm lieutenant just making captain, I'm lieutenant just making captain, I'm lieutenant just making captain, takes over the police department as a takes over the police department as a takes over the police department as a complete outsider and is doing his complete outsider and is doing his complete outsider and is doing his assessment of what officials, what assessment of what officials, what assessment of what officials, what command level officials he wanted to command level officials he wanted to command level officials he wanted to have on his team. And he appointed me have on his team. And he appointed me have on his team. And he appointed me from the rank of captain to be an from the rank of captain to be an from the rank of captain to be an inspector to take over a major narcotics inspector to take over a major narcotics inspector to take over a major narcotics branch with less than eight years on the branch with less than eight years on the branch with less than eight years on the job. I was 29, I think. job. I was 29, I think. job. I was 29, I think. >> All right. Chuck makes his appearance. >> All right. Chuck makes his appearance. >> All right. Chuck makes his appearance. Right. Okay. Charles Ramsey. Right. Okay. Charles Ramsey. Right. Okay. Charles Ramsey. >> He's the next big mentor. >> He's the next big mentor. >> He's the next big mentor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, just for my honestly my >> Okay. So, just for my honestly my >> Okay. So, just for my honestly my personal curiosities, I really know personal curiosities, I really know personal curiosities, I really know nothing about how nothing about how nothing about how police police police structures work, right? What is what is structures work, right? What is what is structures work, right? What is what is a captain doing? And then what is an a captain doing? And then what is an a captain doing? And then what is an inspector do if you don't mind? inspector do if you don't mind? inspector do if you don't mind? >> So, again, this is where I think the >> So, again, this is where I think the >> So, again, this is where I think the police gets right. You're you spend police gets right. You're you spend police gets right. You're you spend three years as a patrol officer. You three years as a patrol officer. You three years as a patrol officer. You make sergeant. You study really hard to make sergeant. You study really hard to make sergeant. You study really hard to take the test. You make sergeant. You do take the test. You make sergeant. You do take the test. You make sergeant. You do go through some schools. After you make go through some schools. After you make go through some schools. After you make sergeant, you manage a small group. Then sergeant, you manage a small group. Then sergeant, you manage a small group. Then you make lieutenant two years later. You you make lieutenant two years later. You you make lieutenant two years later. You go through the exam process. You go go through the exam process. You go go through the exam process. You go through some schools after that. And through some schools after that. And through some schools after that. And then you manage a squad of like a then you manage a squad of like a then you manage a squad of like a platoon of 40. So now you've got when I platoon of 40. So now you've got when I platoon of 40. So now you've got when I was lieutenant, I had narcotics was lieutenant, I had narcotics was lieutenant, I had narcotics officers, I had detectives, and I had officers, I had detectives, and I had officers, I had detectives, and I had patrols. patrols. patrols. >> How are those 40 people determined? Is >> How are those 40 people determined? Is >> How are those 40 people determined? Is it based on neighborhood or some type of it based on neighborhood or some type of it based on neighborhood or some type of sort of geographic area sort of geographic area sort of geographic area >> at that time? It's done differently and >> at that time? It's done differently and >> at that time? It's done differently and over the course of the years it's over the course of the years it's over the course of the years it's changed but at that time it was changed but at that time it was changed but at that time it was geographically. So I had a patrol geographically. So I had a patrol geographically. So I had a patrol district and of that patrol district I district and of that patrol district I district and of that patrol district I had one-third of that patrol district had one-third of that patrol district had one-third of that patrol district and I managed every resource for that and I managed every resource for that and I managed every resource for that part of the district. So all three part of the district. So all three part of the district. So all three shifts I had day work, midnights, shifts I had day work, midnights, shifts I had day work, midnights, evening shift all three shifts. Those evening shift all three shifts. Those evening shift all three shifts. Those officers are split across those three officers are split across those three officers are split across those three shifts and they covered all the shifts and they covered all the shifts and they covered all the policing. So, not just the 911 policing. So, not just the 911 policing. So, not just the 911 responders, the guys in the in uniform responders, the guys in the in uniform responders, the guys in the in uniform going to 911 calls, but also your going to 911 calls, but also your going to 911 calls, but also your narcotics officers and your detectives narcotics officers and your detectives narcotics officers and your detectives that follow up and investigate crimes. that follow up and investigate crimes. that follow up and investigate crimes. >> This is Lieutenant. Am I getting that >> This is Lieutenant. Am I getting that >> This is Lieutenant. Am I getting that right? right? right? >> That's Lieutenant. >> That's Lieutenant. >> That's Lieutenant. >> Okay. So, Lieutenant, is that the first >> Okay. So, Lieutenant, is that the first >> Okay. So, Lieutenant, is that the first time where you're getting kind of the time where you're getting kind of the time where you're getting kind of the decathletes exposure to all of these decathletes exposure to all of these decathletes exposure to all of these different things? different things? different things? >> Yes. Okay. And you're also getting >> Yes. Okay. And you're also getting >> Yes. Okay. And you're also getting exposure to administration. So, part of exposure to administration. So, part of exposure to administration. So, part of that exam, that promotional exam is that exam, that promotional exam is that exam, that promotional exam is studying administration. You have to studying administration. You have to studying administration. You have to learn administration. Like so if there learn administration. Like so if there learn administration. Like so if there are municipal regulations that need to are municipal regulations that need to are municipal regulations that need to be changed and I'm managing a large part be changed and I'm managing a large part be changed and I'm managing a large part of the portion of the District of of the portion of the District of of the portion of the District of Columbia and I see a municipal Columbia and I see a municipal Columbia and I see a municipal regulation needs to be changed, I need regulation needs to be changed, I need regulation needs to be changed, I need to know the process to petition to to know the process to petition to to know the process to petition to change that municipal regulation. How do change that municipal regulation. How do change that municipal regulation. How do I go about changing that law? I go about changing that law? I go about changing that law? >> Because I I'm seeing firsthand the >> Because I I'm seeing firsthand the >> Because I I'm seeing firsthand the impact it's having in our neighborhoods, impact it's having in our neighborhoods, impact it's having in our neighborhoods, right? So, right? So, right? So, >> so police administration starts to >> so police administration starts to >> so police administration starts to become more and more important there. become more and more important there. become more and more important there. >> I also now can start influencing policy. >> I also now can start influencing policy. >> I also now can start influencing policy. >> I can influence policy for my little >> I can influence policy for my little >> I can influence policy for my little piece of the world, right? Mhm. piece of the world, right? Mhm. piece of the world, right? Mhm. >> I decide what my drug enforcement >> I decide what my drug enforcement >> I decide what my drug enforcement tactics are going to be. I decide how tactics are going to be. I decide how tactics are going to be. I decide how we're going to work in terms of doing we're going to work in terms of doing we're going to work in terms of doing warrant service and things like that. So warrant service and things like that. So warrant service and things like that. So that's where you first start to get a that's where you first start to get a that's where you first start to get a better understanding of influencing how better understanding of influencing how better understanding of influencing how policing actually is carried out. policing actually is carried out. policing actually is carried out. >> Not to minimize the the prior steps, but >> Not to minimize the the prior steps, but >> Not to minimize the the prior steps, but it sounds like the lieutenant role is a it sounds like the lieutenant role is a it sounds like the lieutenant role is a very dense learning opportunity very dense learning opportunity very dense learning opportunity just based on the description. And I just based on the description. And I just based on the description. And I think the best role, the best rank on think the best role, the best rank on think the best role, the best rank on the police farmer for me was lieutenant. the police farmer for me was lieutenant. the police farmer for me was lieutenant. I was able to still go out on the I was able to still go out on the I was able to still go out on the street, support my troops, back up my street, support my troops, back up my street, support my troops, back up my sergeants, have fun policing and do the sergeants, have fun policing and do the sergeants, have fun policing and do the policing that I enjoyed, but I also had policing that I enjoyed, but I also had policing that I enjoyed, but I also had the ability to change the environment the ability to change the environment the ability to change the environment for them, help them for them, help them for them, help them >> and also influence how we were policing >> and also influence how we were policing >> and also influence how we were policing our community. our community. our community. >> And then captain, >> And then captain, >> And then captain, >> after captain, it gets, you know, so >> after captain, it gets, you know, so >> after captain, it gets, you know, so captain is more more you're strapped to captain is more more you're strapped to captain is more more you're strapped to your desk a lot more. Yeah, I was going your desk a lot more. Yeah, I was going your desk a lot more. Yeah, I was going to say more more behind the desk to say more more behind the desk to say more more behind the desk >> because you're reviewing bad arrest that >> because you're reviewing bad arrest that >> because you're reviewing bad arrest that went, you know, somebody didn't a went, you know, somebody didn't a went, you know, somebody didn't a sergeant didn't do the right thing and sergeant didn't do the right thing and sergeant didn't do the right thing and review the paperwork. Now you've got a review the paperwork. Now you've got a review the paperwork. Now you've got a bad arrest that's got to be detention bad arrest that's got to be detention bad arrest that's got to be detention journal. So you've got to review and journal. So you've got to review and journal. So you've got to review and make that decision. You've got to set make that decision. You've got to set make that decision. You've got to set things up at the courts. You've got to things up at the courts. You've got to things up at the courts. You've got to look at all the disciplinary look at all the disciplinary look at all the disciplinary investigations that come in. You know, investigations that come in. You know, investigations that come in. You know, officers getting disciplined for things. officers getting disciplined for things. officers getting disciplined for things. You got to make decisions about that. You got to make decisions about that. You got to make decisions about that. You sit on trial boards, you know, who's You sit on trial boards, you know, who's You sit on trial boards, you know, who's going to get disciplined, who's going to going to get disciplined, who's going to going to get disciplined, who's going to get terminated. It's very get terminated. It's very get terminated. It's very administrative. You're helping the administrative. You're helping the administrative. You're helping the commander make decisions, you know, commander make decisions, you know, commander make decisions, you know, community meetings, deployment community meetings, deployment community meetings, deployment decisions, and it's not as much fun. decisions, and it's not as much fun. decisions, and it's not as much fun. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I don't I do I I know a few people Yeah. I don't I do I I know a few people Yeah. I don't I do I I know a few people in in law enforcement, but mostly in in law enforcement, but mostly in in law enforcement, but mostly military, former military guys. And I military, former military guys. And I military, former military guys. And I mean, very similar, right? Some of these mean, very similar, right? Some of these mean, very similar, right? Some of these guys, they just love being in the field, guys, they just love being in the field, guys, they just love being in the field, and they're like, I got promoted. It's and they're like, I got promoted. It's and they're like, I got promoted. It's like, I just don't know how I feel how I like, I just don't know how I feel how I like, I just don't know how I feel how I feel about it. They're [laughter] like feel about it. They're [laughter] like feel about it. They're [laughter] like very mixed. very mixed. very mixed. >> Well, here's the big key. When I went to >> Well, here's the big key. When I went to >> Well, here's the big key. When I went to go change my uniform, so you go to go change my uniform, so you go to go change my uniform, so you go to property division. When you get property division. When you get property division. When you get promoted, you walk off the stage, you promoted, you walk off the stage, you promoted, you walk off the stage, you get your promoted, you get your your get your promoted, you get your your get your promoted, you get your your birds or whatever you're getting, your birds or whatever you're getting, your birds or whatever you're getting, your clusters or whatever. It's for your new clusters or whatever. It's for your new clusters or whatever. It's for your new rank. You go to the property division, rank. You go to the property division, rank. You go to the property division, you get your new rank insignia. When I you get your new rank insignia. When I you get your new rank insignia. When I made captain and I went over to property made captain and I went over to property made captain and I went over to property division to get my new rank in, they division to get my new rank in, they division to get my new rank in, they said, "Turn in your handcuffs." And I said, "Turn in your handcuffs." And I said, "Turn in your handcuffs." And I was like, "What? Turn in [laughter] my was like, "What? Turn in [laughter] my was like, "What? Turn in [laughter] my handcuffs? What are you talking about? handcuffs? What are you talking about? handcuffs? What are you talking about? You don't need those anymore." Like, uh, You don't need those anymore." Like, uh, You don't need those anymore." Like, uh, you're not taking my handcuffs. I'm you're not taking my handcuffs. I'm you're not taking my handcuffs. I'm going to keep my handcuffs. I'm right going to keep my handcuffs. I'm right going to keep my handcuffs. I'm right here. [laughter] Right here. here. [laughter] Right here. here. [laughter] Right here. >> I kept my gun belt, my handcuffs, my >> I kept my gun belt, my handcuffs, my >> I kept my gun belt, my handcuffs, my extra magazines, all those things that extra magazines, all those things that extra magazines, all those things that the administrative captains used to turn the administrative captains used to turn the administrative captains used to turn in. I'm like, "No." Uhuh. I'm keeping in. I'm like, "No." Uhuh. I'm keeping in. I'm like, "No." Uhuh. I'm keeping this stuff. this stuff. this stuff. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, let's come back to Chuck. And >> So, let's come back to Chuck. And >> So, let's come back to Chuck. And because I'm so unfamiliar with the because I'm so unfamiliar with the because I'm so unfamiliar with the internal workings, it's hard for me to internal workings, it's hard for me to internal workings, it's hard for me to pick the next pick the next pick the next sort of flash point, maybe a seinal sort of flash point, maybe a seinal sort of flash point, maybe a seinal moment for you. There's a lot to pick moment for you. There's a lot to pick moment for you. There's a lot to pick from. I'm not sure how to put them in from. I'm not sure how to put them in from. I'm not sure how to put them in order. Not that they have to be in order. Not that they have to be in order. Not that they have to be in order, but maybe tell me if there's order, but maybe tell me if there's order, but maybe tell me if there's something that we should talk about something that we should talk about something that we should talk about before this, but you mentioned Chuck, before this, but you mentioned Chuck, before this, but you mentioned Chuck, right, pushing you to take tough right, pushing you to take tough right, pushing you to take tough assignments. assignments. assignments. Is Is Is special operations division is that a special operations division is that a special operations division is that a sensible place to hop to next or what do sensible place to hop to next or what do sensible place to hop to next or what do you think is are we skipping some you think is are we skipping some you think is are we skipping some important important important important steps in between? when Chuck important steps in between? when Chuck important steps in between? when Chuck came in and he initially put me in came in and he initially put me in came in and he initially put me in charge. I'd only been a captain I want charge. I'd only been a captain I want charge. I'd only been a captain I want to say four or five months and he kind to say four or five months and he kind to say four or five months and he kind of did a clean out at the top like a lot of did a clean out at the top like a lot of did a clean out at the top like a lot of that old boy network that was there of that old boy network that was there of that old boy network that was there when he got there. They were all people when he got there. They were all people when he got there. They were all people that were long past retirement. So he that were long past retirement. So he that were long past retirement. So he pushed a lot of the command staff out. pushed a lot of the command staff out. pushed a lot of the command staff out. So that made him push people up pretty So that made him push people up pretty So that made him push people up pretty young in their career. So he pushed me young in their career. So he pushed me young in their career. So he pushed me up to be the commander of major up to be the commander of major up to be the commander of major narcotics branch as an inspector. Like I narcotics branch as an inspector. Like I narcotics branch as an inspector. Like I said, just under eight years on, so I said, just under eight years on, so I said, just under eight years on, so I was very young. was very young. was very young. >> I'm trying to do the math. How old were >> I'm trying to do the math. How old were >> I'm trying to do the math. How old were you then at that point? you then at that point? you then at that point? >> So I want to say I was 30ish 30 31 at >> So I want to say I was 30ish 30 31 at >> So I want to say I was 30ish 30 31 at Major Narcotics Branch. Major Narcotics Branch. Major Narcotics Branch. >> Wow, man. That's amazing. That is a lot >> Wow, man. That's amazing. That is a lot >> Wow, man. That's amazing. That is a lot of responsibility. of responsibility. of responsibility. >> And so I went to major narcotics branch. >> And so I went to major narcotics branch. >> And so I went to major narcotics branch. So I had major narcotics branch and So I had major narcotics branch and So I had major narcotics branch and vehicular homicide. So I managed all the vehicular homicide. So I managed all the vehicular homicide. So I managed all the vehicular homicide investigative units vehicular homicide investigative units vehicular homicide investigative units there for just under two years. And then there for just under two years. And then there for just under two years. And then he promoted me again to commander and I he promoted me again to commander and I he promoted me again to commander and I took over a patrol district. the fourth took over a patrol district. the fourth took over a patrol district. the fourth district where Mount Pleasant sits, the district where Mount Pleasant sits, the district where Mount Pleasant sits, the patrol district I started in, I went patrol district I started in, I went patrol district I started in, I went back now and I was the commander of that back now and I was the commander of that back now and I was the commander of that patrol district. It was the largest patrol district. It was the largest patrol district. It was the largest residential area in the in the city of residential area in the in the city of residential area in the in the city of Washington. So I took over that Washington. So I took over that Washington. So I took over that district. I ran that for two years and district. I ran that for two years and district. I ran that for two years and then he shot away. He called me down to then he shot away. He called me down to then he shot away. He called me down to his office and he says, "You know, I'm his office and he says, "You know, I'm his office and he says, "You know, I'm thinking I'm going to send you to SOD." thinking I'm going to send you to SOD." thinking I'm going to send you to SOD." It was 911 happens, right? 911 happens It was 911 happens, right? 911 happens It was 911 happens, right? 911 happens the Friday after 911. He says,"I think the Friday after 911. He says,"I think the Friday after 911. He says,"I think I'm going to send you to special I'm going to send you to special I'm going to send you to special operations division." I was like, "You operations division." I was like, "You operations division." I was like, "You know what? I love being the district know what? I love being the district know what? I love being the district commander. I love working in 4D. This is commander. I love working in 4D. This is commander. I love working in 4D. This is my goal was to retire as the commander my goal was to retire as the commander my goal was to retire as the commander of 4D. Thanks, but I really like where I of 4D. Thanks, but I really like where I of 4D. Thanks, but I really like where I am." And [clears throat] he's like, "Oh, am." And [clears throat] he's like, "Oh, am." And [clears throat] he's like, "Oh, okay." And then two days later, a okay." And then two days later, a okay." And then two days later, a teletype came out transferring me to teletype came out transferring me to teletype came out transferring me to SOD. So, like it wasn't really asking SOD. So, like it wasn't really asking SOD. So, like it wasn't really asking me. [laughter] me. [laughter] me. [laughter] He's like, "Oh, oh, okay." He's like, "Oh, oh, okay." He's like, "Oh, oh, okay." >> He's like, "That's a great story. Thank >> He's like, "That's a great story. Thank >> He's like, "That's a great story. Thank you for that." you for that." you for that." >> Funny, right? [laughter] Glad to hear >> Funny, right? [laughter] Glad to hear >> Funny, right? [laughter] Glad to hear it. it. it. So I took over special ops. Now special So I took over special ops. Now special So I took over special ops. Now special operations division had never had a operations division had never had a operations division had never had a woman in charge. So that in itself was a woman in charge. So that in itself was a woman in charge. So that in itself was a little intimidating. But the one thing little intimidating. But the one thing little intimidating. But the one thing that when you talk about mentors and I I that when you talk about mentors and I I that when you talk about mentors and I I know you probably have experienced this know you probably have experienced this know you probably have experienced this like many others is like many others is like many others is what a mentor does for you is they lend what a mentor does for you is they lend what a mentor does for you is they lend you confidence that you don't have. Like you confidence that you don't have. Like you confidence that you don't have. Like Chuck Chuck Chuck recognized that I didn't have the recognized that I didn't have the recognized that I didn't have the confidence. I was like intimidated by confidence. I was like intimidated by confidence. I was like intimidated by this sod thing. My guy was like, "Yeah, this sod thing. My guy was like, "Yeah, this sod thing. My guy was like, "Yeah, no." That, you know, never had a woman no." That, you know, never had a woman no." That, you know, never had a woman in charge. It's the predominantly male. in charge. It's the predominantly male. in charge. It's the predominantly male. I always say it's the most testosterone I always say it's the most testosterone I always say it's the most testosterone in the police departments in SOD, right? in the police departments in SOD, right? in the police departments in SOD, right? It's the bomb squad, the SWAT team, It's the bomb squad, the SWAT team, It's the bomb squad, the SWAT team, harbor, the marine unit, the helicopter harbor, the marine unit, the helicopter harbor, the marine unit, the helicopter unit, aviation, horsemounted unit, K9, unit, aviation, horsemounted unit, K9, unit, aviation, horsemounted unit, K9, civil disturbance unit, the presidential civil disturbance unit, the presidential civil disturbance unit, the presidential protection unit. So, it's like nine or protection unit. So, it's like nine or protection unit. So, it's like nine or 10 different units. You know, your your 10 different units. You know, your your 10 different units. You know, your your high-end stuff. So, anyway, he high-end stuff. So, anyway, he high-end stuff. So, anyway, he recognized that I was intimidated by recognized that I was intimidated by recognized that I was intimidated by that. And he's like, "Mm- you're going that. And he's like, "Mm- you're going that. And he's like, "Mm- you're going to go and you're going to do it." He to go and you're going to do it." He to go and you're going to do it." He sent me off to a bunch of schools. I sent me off to a bunch of schools. I sent me off to a bunch of schools. I went to EOD schools, bombing schools. I went to EOD schools, bombing schools. I went to EOD schools, bombing schools. I learned how to manage a bomb squad. I learned how to manage a bomb squad. I learned how to manage a bomb squad. I learned how to manage a squat team. And learned how to manage a squat team. And learned how to manage a squat team. And the people there were great. That was my the people there were great. That was my the people there were great. That was my best assignment in my entire career. I best assignment in my entire career. I best assignment in my entire career. I spent six years there after 911 spent six years there after 911 spent six years there after 911 recreating our special operations recreating our special operations recreating our special operations division and turning it into a homeland division and turning it into a homeland division and turning it into a homeland security and counterterrorism unit. security and counterterrorism unit. security and counterterrorism unit. >> What made it so good for you, that >> What made it so good for you, that >> What made it so good for you, that particular role? particular role? particular role? >> Well, it was the most complex role I'd >> Well, it was the most complex role I'd >> Well, it was the most complex role I'd ever held. Most of the units I I ever held. Most of the units I I ever held. Most of the units I I managed, I had to manage three or four managed, I had to manage three or four managed, I had to manage three or four different type of specialties. I had to different type of specialties. I had to different type of specialties. I had to manage nine different specialties and manage nine different specialties and manage nine different specialties and they were highly special. Sniper teams they were highly special. Sniper teams they were highly special. Sniper teams on the SWAT teams, negotiations unit, on the SWAT teams, negotiations unit, on the SWAT teams, negotiations unit, the bomb squad. We were just after 911 the bomb squad. We were just after 911 the bomb squad. We were just after 911 and we were trying to evolve our and we were trying to evolve our and we were trying to evolve our department from a pre 911 police department from a pre 911 police department from a pre 911 police department in the nation's capital to a department in the nation's capital to a department in the nation's capital to a post 911 police department in the post 911 police department in the post 911 police department in the nation's capital. We got called nation's capital. We got called nation's capital. We got called flatfooted on 911 and we should not have flatfooted on 911 and we should not have flatfooted on 911 and we should not have been. We didn't have the skills, been. We didn't have the skills, been. We didn't have the skills, training, equipment, and things that we training, equipment, and things that we training, equipment, and things that we should have had. Right? I always say should have had. Right? I always say should have had. Right? I always say Timothy McVey, that Oklahoma City Timothy McVey, that Oklahoma City Timothy McVey, that Oklahoma City bombing was the wakeup call. That's when bombing was the wakeup call. That's when bombing was the wakeup call. That's when we should have started changing the way we should have started changing the way we should have started changing the way we train and prepare our police we train and prepare our police we train and prepare our police officers, but we didn't. Right? And then officers, but we didn't. Right? And then officers, but we didn't. Right? And then there's the first World Trade Center there's the first World Trade Center there's the first World Trade Center bombing. That was another wakeup call. bombing. That was another wakeup call. bombing. That was another wakeup call. We didn't respond to that. It was not We didn't respond to that. It was not We didn't respond to that. It was not until 911 that the nation's police until 911 that the nation's police until 911 that the nation's police departments in the largest cities really departments in the largest cities really departments in the largest cities really realized that we have to be prepared for realized that we have to be prepared for realized that we have to be prepared for this type of asymmetric threat that this type of asymmetric threat that this type of asymmetric threat that we're now facing. So when Chuck put me we're now facing. So when Chuck put me we're now facing. So when Chuck put me in charge of SOD, he said, "I want you in charge of SOD, he said, "I want you in charge of SOD, he said, "I want you to create the homeland security to create the homeland security to create the homeland security capabilities that we need, not just in capabilities that we need, not just in capabilities that we need, not just in SOD, but across the whole department." SOD, but across the whole department." SOD, but across the whole department." So he gave me a blank check to create a So he gave me a blank check to create a So he gave me a blank check to create a brand new brand new brand new police philosophy in the Metropolitan police philosophy in the Metropolitan police philosophy in the Metropolitan Police Department. So we created the Police Department. So we created the Police Department. So we created the Homeland Security Counterterrorism Homeland Security Counterterrorism Homeland Security Counterterrorism Bureau. We created CBR&. My first year Bureau. We created CBR&. My first year Bureau. We created CBR&. My first year we got $17 million in funding to buy we got $17 million in funding to buy we got $17 million in funding to buy level A suits to send our people down to level A suits to send our people down to level A suits to send our people down to Andison, Alabama. I went down to Andison, Alabama. I went down to Andison, Alabama. I went down to Andison, Alabama. I trained in sarin and Andison, Alabama. I trained in sarin and Andison, Alabama. I trained in sarin and VX live sarin and VX gas. We were VX live sarin and VX gas. We were VX live sarin and VX gas. We were trained to do rescues in hot zones. We trained to do rescues in hot zones. We trained to do rescues in hot zones. We went down to Nevada and trained on rad went down to Nevada and trained on rad went down to Nevada and trained on rad environments, radiological environments. environments, radiological environments. environments, radiological environments. I was one of the few people that was I was one of the few people that was I was one of the few people that was fortunate enough to train with Ken Albec fortunate enough to train with Ken Albec fortunate enough to train with Ken Albec and Bill Patrick, two bioweapons and Bill Patrick, two bioweapons and Bill Patrick, two bioweapons scientists, one from Russia and one from scientists, one from Russia and one from scientists, one from Russia and one from the US, taught my bio weapons class, you the US, taught my bio weapons class, you the US, taught my bio weapons class, you know, how to respond to biological know, how to respond to biological know, how to respond to biological threats. Anthrax, right? We had anthrax threats. Anthrax, right? We had anthrax threats. Anthrax, right? We had anthrax in Washington DC. These are all things in Washington DC. These are all things in Washington DC. These are all things that I was on the front end of creating that I was on the front end of creating that I was on the front end of creating and I got to go through all of that and I got to go through all of that and I got to go through all of that training and all of that experience with training and all of that experience with training and all of that experience with my whole team and the Metropol Police my whole team and the Metropol Police my whole team and the Metropol Police Department when we were finished that Department when we were finished that Department when we were finished that six years of of evolution was a six years of of evolution was a six years of of evolution was a completely different place. completely different place. completely different place. >> Wow. This is a good time to I think come >> Wow. This is a good time to I think come >> Wow. This is a good time to I think come back to something I kind of promised to back to something I kind of promised to back to something I kind of promised to listeners that we would revisit listeners that we would revisit listeners that we would revisit and it goes all the way back. We're not and it goes all the way back. We're not and it goes all the way back. We're not gonna go gonna go gonna go all the way back to Mount Pleasant. But all the way back to Mount Pleasant. But all the way back to Mount Pleasant. But when you were first day on the job, five when you were first day on the job, five when you were first day on the job, five days, and you're looking at it and days, and you're looking at it and days, and you're looking at it and you're thinking to yourself, we're not you're thinking to yourself, we're not you're thinking to yourself, we're not doing this the right way, right? We doing this the right way, right? We doing this the right way, right? We can't even communicate with these can't even communicate with these can't even communicate with these community members. Furthermore, we're community members. Furthermore, we're community members. Furthermore, we're not even trying to set the message not even trying to set the message not even trying to set the message straight. And then if we flash forward, straight. And then if we flash forward, straight. And then if we flash forward, you know, I have notes that are a bit you know, I have notes that are a bit you know, I have notes that are a bit scattered here, but I have notes on scattered here, but I have notes on scattered here, but I have notes on embracing technology, right? So this is embracing technology, right? So this is embracing technology, right? So this is from governing.com. I want to give from governing.com. I want to give from governing.com. I want to give credit where credit is due, but this credit where credit is due, but this credit where credit is due, but this relates to looking for new ways to relates to looking for new ways to relates to looking for new ways to connect the community to the police in connect the community to the police in connect the community to the police in the case of the police. So the creation the case of the police. So the creation the case of the police. So the creation of an anonymous text tip line, cleverly of an anonymous text tip line, cleverly of an anonymous text tip line, cleverly named 50411. Am I saying that the right named 50411. Am I saying that the right named 50411. Am I saying that the right way? way? way? >> Give the 50. >> Give the 50. >> Give the 50. >> Give the 50. the 411, right? >> Give the 50. the 411, right? >> Give the 50. the 411, right? >> The 50. I'm such an idiot. I'm such an >> The 50. I'm such an idiot. I'm such an >> The 50. I'm such an idiot. I'm such an idiot. idiot. idiot. >> We are the 50. Like the cop, they used >> We are the 50. Like the cop, they used >> We are the 50. Like the cop, they used to call us the 50 back in the old days. to call us the 50 back in the old days. to call us the 50 back in the old days. And 411, you know, the 411. And 411, you know, the 411. And 411, you know, the 411. >> Yeah. Right. So, in in 2008, they >> Yeah. Right. So, in in 2008, they >> Yeah. Right. So, in in 2008, they received 292 tips. By the end of 2011, received 292 tips. By the end of 2011, received 292 tips. By the end of 2011, that number had jumped to 1,200. that number had jumped to 1,200. that number had jumped to 1,200. >> 1,200. Yeah. We got up to about 2,800. >> 1,200. Yeah. We got up to about 2,800. >> 1,200. Yeah. We got up to about 2,800. >> 2,800. Right. And there are many >> 2,800. Right. And there are many >> 2,800. Right. And there are many examples of how that ended up being examples of how that ended up being examples of how that ended up being valuable. And then there's a whole valuable. And then there's a whole valuable. And then there's a whole separate topic which is maybe related separate topic which is maybe related separate topic which is maybe related but different which is cultivating but different which is cultivating but different which is cultivating sources right so like developing sources sources right so like developing sources sources right so like developing sources >> getting to know people and this is >> getting to know people and this is >> getting to know people and this is quoting from the same piece but you you quoting from the same piece but you you quoting from the same piece but you you treat people with respect you establish treat people with respect you establish treat people with respect you establish relationships and god you know I'm relationships and god you know I'm relationships and god you know I'm trying to think of some [snorts] of trying to think of some [snorts] of trying to think of some [snorts] of these examples that I read about these examples that I read about these examples that I read about separately but this seems to all separately but this seems to all separately but this seems to all probably feed into a lot of what you probably feed into a lot of what you probably feed into a lot of what you were doing in bad overhaul later, right? were doing in bad overhaul later, right? were doing in bad overhaul later, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And I'm just wondering if you have any >> And I'm just wondering if you have any >> And I'm just wondering if you have any other examples of [snorts] sort of other examples of [snorts] sort of other examples of [snorts] sort of cultivating a access to helpful cultivating a access to helpful cultivating a access to helpful information, right? Not just drowning in information, right? Not just drowning in information, right? Not just drowning in noise. I'm wondering how you even noise. I'm wondering how you even noise. I'm wondering how you even thought about that cuz I imagine one of thought about that cuz I imagine one of thought about that cuz I imagine one of the challenges at at that time, probably the challenges at at that time, probably the challenges at at that time, probably even still today, but especially post even still today, but especially post even still today, but especially post 911 in the wake of that, that there's 911 in the wake of that, that there's 911 in the wake of that, that there's kind of a good news bad news situation. kind of a good news bad news situation. kind of a good news bad news situation. If you want more information or tips, If you want more information or tips, If you want more information or tips, there's probably going to be an there's probably going to be an there's probably going to be an overwhelming amount depending on how you overwhelming amount depending on how you overwhelming amount depending on how you solicit and how you search for it. So, solicit and how you search for it. So, solicit and how you search for it. So, how did you how did you think of how did you how did you think of how did you how did you think of separating signal from noise? separating signal from noise? separating signal from noise? >> For me, it was pretty simple and it does >> For me, it was pretty simple and it does >> For me, it was pretty simple and it does go back to Mount Pleasant. Again, pretty go back to Mount Pleasant. Again, pretty go back to Mount Pleasant. Again, pretty intuitive on your part not having been intuitive on your part not having been intuitive on your part not having been in policing. So when I became the chief in policing. So when I became the chief in policing. So when I became the chief of police, a couple of commitments I of police, a couple of commitments I of police, a couple of commitments I made to myself and to the community was made to myself and to the community was made to myself and to the community was that we had a tendency to place higher that we had a tendency to place higher that we had a tendency to place higher value on some neighborhoods and some value on some neighborhoods and some value on some neighborhoods and some crimes than others. And our job is to crimes than others. And our job is to crimes than others. And our job is to protect all of the community and every protect all of the community and every protect all of the community and every crime should be equally important to us. crime should be equally important to us. crime should be equally important to us. If if we're not preventing crimes, we're If if we're not preventing crimes, we're If if we're not preventing crimes, we're not being successful making arrests. We not being successful making arrests. We not being successful making arrests. We used to publish our arrest stats every used to publish our arrest stats every used to publish our arrest stats every year and go, "Oh, look, we made 50,000 year and go, "Oh, look, we made 50,000 year and go, "Oh, look, we made 50,000 arrests last year. Look how successful arrests last year. Look how successful arrests last year. Look how successful we are." Well, that's 50,000 times and we are." Well, that's 50,000 times and we are." Well, that's 50,000 times and we didn't do our job because we didn't we didn't do our job because we didn't we didn't do our job because we didn't prevent those crimes from happening. So, prevent those crimes from happening. So, prevent those crimes from happening. So, to me, arrest stats are not a good to me, arrest stats are not a good to me, arrest stats are not a good measure of success for a police measure of success for a police measure of success for a police department. Now, I don't have a stat to department. Now, I don't have a stat to department. Now, I don't have a stat to tell you what I prevented, right? But tell you what I prevented, right? But tell you what I prevented, right? But the goal should be to try and prevent. the goal should be to try and prevent. the goal should be to try and prevent. So, for me, what was very clear is when So, for me, what was very clear is when So, for me, what was very clear is when I first took over as chief, I promised I I first took over as chief, I promised I I first took over as chief, I promised I was going to go on the scene of every was going to go on the scene of every was going to go on the scene of every single homicide. Why? because I wanted single homicide. Why? because I wanted single homicide. Why? because I wanted people in the communities to know it people in the communities to know it people in the communities to know it didn't matter what neighborhood you didn't matter what neighborhood you didn't matter what neighborhood you lived in or what the circumstances of lived in or what the circumstances of lived in or what the circumstances of that homicide was, that homicide's just that homicide was, that homicide's just that homicide was, that homicide's just as important to us as every other as important to us as every other as important to us as every other homicide. So, a homicide in Georgetown, homicide. So, a homicide in Georgetown, homicide. So, a homicide in Georgetown, right, in the very expensive wealthy right, in the very expensive wealthy right, in the very expensive wealthy neighborhood, if there was a homicide neighborhood, if there was a homicide neighborhood, if there was a homicide there, it would get news coverage for there, it would get news coverage for there, it would get news coverage for weeks and police were all over it and weeks and police were all over it and weeks and police were all over it and and almost always those crimes would be and almost always those crimes would be and almost always those crimes would be closed. But if there was a homicide in a closed. But if there was a homicide in a closed. But if there was a homicide in a project, public housing project, it got project, public housing project, it got project, public housing project, it got little to no news coverage. Three people little to no news coverage. Three people little to no news coverage. Three people shot last night in Southeast. That was shot last night in Southeast. That was shot last night in Southeast. That was it. That's all you'd hear. And nothing it. That's all you'd hear. And nothing it. That's all you'd hear. And nothing about those people or what happened with about those people or what happened with about those people or what happened with those crimes. And they very rarely got those crimes. And they very rarely got those crimes. And they very rarely got closed. So I put an emphasis on trying closed. So I put an emphasis on trying closed. So I put an emphasis on trying to cultivate those relationships in the to cultivate those relationships in the to cultivate those relationships in the community. It was clear to me two community. It was clear to me two community. It was clear to me two things. People didn't trust us. They things. People didn't trust us. They things. People didn't trust us. They didn't trust the police. And we didn't didn't trust the police. And we didn't didn't trust the police. And we didn't close these homicides because people close these homicides because people close these homicides because people weren't witnesses wouldn't come forward. weren't witnesses wouldn't come forward. weren't witnesses wouldn't come forward. They wouldn't come forward because they They wouldn't come forward because they They wouldn't come forward because they didn't trust us. And so we had to change didn't trust us. And so we had to change didn't trust us. And so we had to change that. So I had a great example. I was that. So I had a great example. I was that. So I had a great example. I was out, we did a crime initiative during out, we did a crime initiative during out, we did a crime initiative during the summer called All Hands on Deck. So the summer called All Hands on Deck. So the summer called All Hands on Deck. So I was out on All Hands on Deck. I'm I was out on All Hands on Deck. I'm I was out on All Hands on Deck. I'm walking through a public housing complex walking through a public housing complex walking through a public housing complex and there's two middle-aged women and there's two middle-aged women and there's two middle-aged women sitting on a wall outside in the summer. sitting on a wall outside in the summer. sitting on a wall outside in the summer. They're drinking. They got open They're drinking. They got open They're drinking. They got open containers of alcohol, which is illegal, containers of alcohol, which is illegal, containers of alcohol, which is illegal, right? They could have been in the old right? They could have been in the old right? They could have been in the old days when I was pleasing, we would just days when I was pleasing, we would just days when I was pleasing, we would just walk over and handcuff them, lock them walk over and handcuff them, lock them walk over and handcuff them, lock them up, take them to the station, right? up, take them to the station, right? up, take them to the station, right? That's open container alcohol. So I go That's open container alcohol. So I go That's open container alcohol. So I go over and I sit down and start talking to over and I sit down and start talking to over and I sit down and start talking to him. There had been a series of him. There had been a series of him. There had been a series of shootings in this complex and I said, shootings in this complex and I said, shootings in this complex and I said, "Hey," she's like, "I don't know why you "Hey," she's like, "I don't know why you "Hey," she's like, "I don't know why you guys are here. You don't care about us." guys are here. You don't care about us." guys are here. You don't care about us." Kind of giving me the lip. Kind of giving me the lip. Kind of giving me the lip. >> And I said, "Okay, well, I'll tell you >> And I said, "Okay, well, I'll tell you >> And I said, "Okay, well, I'll tell you what. Here's my business card. My cell what. Here's my business card. My cell what. Here's my business card. My cell phone number's on here." First of all, phone number's on here." First of all, phone number's on here." First of all, they had no idea I was a chief. they had no idea I was a chief. they had no idea I was a chief. >> That's [clears throat] I'm just a cop, >> That's [clears throat] I'm just a cop, >> That's [clears throat] I'm just a cop, right? Right. right? Right. right? Right. >> They don't watch the local news. They >> They don't watch the local news. They >> They don't watch the local news. They don't know that I'm the chief. Here's my don't know that I'm the chief. Here's my don't know that I'm the chief. Here's my business card. If you have any business card. If you have any business card. If you have any information and you want to talk to me information and you want to talk to me information and you want to talk to me about anything that's going on here and about anything that's going on here and about anything that's going on here and tell me who's out here shooting in the tell me who's out here shooting in the tell me who's out here shooting in the middle of the night, hit these kids that middle of the night, hit these kids that middle of the night, hit these kids that are on the basketball court, please let are on the basketball court, please let are on the basketball court, please let me know. And when I walk over to the two me know. And when I walk over to the two me know. And when I walk over to the two ladies, they kind of take their beer, ladies, they kind of take their beer, ladies, they kind of take their beer, you know, and stick it behind the wall. you know, and stick it behind the wall. you know, and stick it behind the wall. I was like, you know, you're not I was like, you know, you're not I was like, you know, you're not supposed to be drinking out here, but supposed to be drinking out here, but supposed to be drinking out here, but I'm going to pretend I didn't see that, I'm going to pretend I didn't see that, I'm going to pretend I didn't see that, right? So, so I give them my business right? So, so I give them my business right? So, so I give them my business card. I give them that respect. I Yes, card. I give them that respect. I Yes, card. I give them that respect. I Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Talk to them with a ma'am. No, ma'am. Talk to them with a ma'am. No, ma'am. Talk to them with a little respect. I give them my business little respect. I give them my business little respect. I give them my business card. My cell phone number's on there. card. My cell phone number's on there. card. My cell phone number's on there. About two weeks later, I get a call at About two weeks later, I get a call at About two weeks later, I get a call at 1:00 in the morning and it was a woman's 1:00 in the morning and it was a woman's 1:00 in the morning and it was a woman's voice. Don't know if it was those women. voice. Don't know if it was those women. voice. Don't know if it was those women. Can't prove it. Don't know to this day. Can't prove it. Don't know to this day. Can't prove it. Don't know to this day. But I get a call about 1:00 in the But I get a call about 1:00 in the But I get a call about 1:00 in the morning. There was a shooting in that morning. There was a shooting in that morning. There was a shooting in that neighborhood. And the woman's voice said neighborhood. And the woman's voice said neighborhood. And the woman's voice said to me, "Tell your officers that the gun to me, "Tell your officers that the gun to me, "Tell your officers that the gun is behind the white Escalade." is behind the white Escalade." is behind the white Escalade." >> And I like, "What are you talking >> And I like, "What are you talking >> And I like, "What are you talking about?" She says, "On Cloud Street." She about?" She says, "On Cloud Street." She about?" She says, "On Cloud Street." She gave me that the address on Cloud gave me that the address on Cloud gave me that the address on Cloud Street. She said, "There's a white Street. She said, "There's a white Street. She said, "There's a white Escalade. The gun is there." So, I Escalade. The gun is there." So, I Escalade. The gun is there." So, I turned on my police radio, half asleep, turned on my police radio, half asleep, turned on my police radio, half asleep, switched to the sixth district that switched to the sixth district that switched to the sixth district that where that address is. And sure enough, where that address is. And sure enough, where that address is. And sure enough, they're working a shooting. And I went they're working a shooting. And I went they're working a shooting. And I went over the radio. I said, "Cruiser one, over the radio. I said, "Cruiser one, over the radio. I said, "Cruiser one, who's the onseene official? Have him who's the onseene official? Have him who's the onseene official? Have him call me." He calls me. I said, "Look, I call me." He calls me. I said, "Look, I call me." He calls me. I said, "Look, I just got a tip from somebody that just got a tip from somebody that just got a tip from somebody that there's a gun involved in this case, and there's a gun involved in this case, and there's a gun involved in this case, and this is where the gun is." this is where the gun is." this is where the gun is." >> Sure enough, that's where the gun was. >> Sure enough, that's where the gun was. >> Sure enough, that's where the gun was. They recovered that gun. From that They recovered that gun. From that They recovered that gun. From that recovery of that gun, they were able to recovery of that gun, they were able to recovery of that gun, they were able to start working this case and actually get start working this case and actually get start working this case and actually get information. So, I always tie that back information. So, I always tie that back information. So, I always tie that back to I strongly believe that the fact that to I strongly believe that the fact that to I strongly believe that the fact that I walked over to those women. I showed I walked over to those women. I showed I walked over to those women. I showed them a little respect. I sat on the wall them a little respect. I sat on the wall them a little respect. I sat on the wall with them. I didn't lock them up for the with them. I didn't lock them up for the with them. I didn't lock them up for the Oakland DL. They weren't hurting Oakland DL. They weren't hurting Oakland DL. They weren't hurting anybody. anybody. anybody. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I sat and chatted with them. I gave them >> I sat and chatted with them. I gave them >> I sat and chatted with them. I gave them my cell number and said, "Look, I want my cell number and said, "Look, I want my cell number and said, "Look, I want to help, but if you don't give me to help, but if you don't give me to help, but if you don't give me information, I can't help." So, that's information, I can't help." So, that's information, I can't help." So, that's the philosophy that I wanted all of my the philosophy that I wanted all of my the philosophy that I wanted all of my cops to have. That's the way I wanted cops to have. That's the way I wanted cops to have. That's the way I wanted all of us to police our communities. I all of us to police our communities. I all of us to police our communities. I wanted people to see that you give me wanted people to see that you give me wanted people to see that you give me information, you'll see results. You information, you'll see results. You information, you'll see results. You tell me who's involved in shooting up tell me who's involved in shooting up tell me who's involved in shooting up the neighborhood, we'll go after them. the neighborhood, we'll go after them. the neighborhood, we'll go after them. we will make. So we started we're doing we will make. So we started we're doing we will make. So we started we're doing instead of just putting posters up when instead of just putting posters up when instead of just putting posters up when a homicide occurred when we made an a homicide occurred when we made an a homicide occurred when we made an arrest for the homicide we went back and arrest for the homicide we went back and arrest for the homicide we went back and put posters up saying the case is closed put posters up saying the case is closed put posters up saying the case is closed right reverse canvas like instead of right reverse canvas like instead of right reverse canvas like instead of just telling you when something bad just telling you when something bad just telling you when something bad happens we're going to tell you when we happens we're going to tell you when we happens we're going to tell you when we close it. So now people know close it. So now people know close it. So now people know >> that we've taken that person off the >> that we've taken that person off the >> that we've taken that person off the street and those little things matter. street and those little things matter. street and those little things matter. >> Yeah. Matter a lot. I want to please >> Yeah. Matter a lot. I want to please >> Yeah. Matter a lot. I want to please confirm or deny this, but I am in the confirm or deny this, but I am in the confirm or deny this, but I am in the course of speaking with you and course of speaking with you and course of speaking with you and certainly in the course of doing certainly in the course of doing certainly in the course of doing homework for this conversation impressed homework for this conversation impressed homework for this conversation impressed with your attention to detail, which with your attention to detail, which with your attention to detail, which comes back also to my signal versus comes back also to my signal versus comes back also to my signal versus noise cuz I'm like, I am dazzled by your noise cuz I'm like, I am dazzled by your noise cuz I'm like, I am dazzled by your ability to ability to ability to manage all of these details. And I tell manage all of these details. And I tell manage all of these details. And I tell me if this is a complete dead end, but me if this is a complete dead end, but me if this is a complete dead end, but it seems like you demonstrated this it seems like you demonstrated this it seems like you demonstrated this really really early on. And we'll we'll really really early on. And we'll we'll really really early on. And we'll we'll come back to where we were in the come back to where we were in the come back to where we were in the timeline, but this is as a you had a job timeline, but this is as a you had a job timeline, but this is as a you had a job at 16 as a secretary at a commercial at 16 as a secretary at a commercial at 16 as a secretary at a commercial real estate firm. real estate firm. real estate firm. >> Am I getting that right? >> Am I getting that right? >> Am I getting that right? >> Yes. Eisinger Kilbane. >> Yes. Eisinger Kilbane. >> Yes. Eisinger Kilbane. >> You handle tenant billing, right? >> You handle tenant billing, right? >> You handle tenant billing, right? >> Y >> Y >> Y >> and it seems like you've practiced this >> and it seems like you've practiced this >> and it seems like you've practiced this or just had this ability that you've or just had this ability that you've or just had this ability that you've honed over time. you know, thousands of honed over time. you know, thousands of honed over time. you know, thousands of pieces of correspondents come through pieces of correspondents come through pieces of correspondents come through the police department every day, but the police department every day, but the police department every day, but you're also talking about learning, I you're also talking about learning, I you're also talking about learning, I think, at that job to never let anything think, at that job to never let anything think, at that job to never let anything that's got your name on it be imperfect. that's got your name on it be imperfect. that's got your name on it be imperfect. And it's just like, [laughter] And it's just like, [laughter] And it's just like, [laughter] >> sound familiar, Tim? >> sound familiar, Tim? >> sound familiar, Tim? >> Well, yes, there's that also. My >> Well, yes, there's that also. My >> Well, yes, there's that also. My incredibly helpful slash incredibly helpful slash incredibly helpful slash >> OCD. >> OCD. >> OCD. >> Yeah. Brain damage and two saying OCD. >> Yeah. Brain damage and two saying OCD. >> Yeah. Brain damage and two saying OCD. [laughter] But as you have a job that increases in But as you have a job that increases in scope upon scope upon scope upon scope scope upon scope upon scope upon scope scope upon scope upon scope upon scope and and and how do you build systems that help you how do you build systems that help you how do you build systems that help you to keep track of these things, right? to keep track of these things, right? to keep track of these things, right? Because not everyone is going to have Because not everyone is going to have Because not everyone is going to have necessarily your necessarily your necessarily your [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] eye for detail or capacity to remember eye for detail or capacity to remember eye for detail or capacity to remember the details in that photograph that the details in that photograph that the details in that photograph that flash for a fraction of time that you flash for a fraction of time that you flash for a fraction of time that you then need to recall. So, it seems like then need to recall. So, it seems like then need to recall. So, it seems like ultimately, and I'm I am cheating a ultimately, and I'm I am cheating a ultimately, and I'm I am cheating a little bit because you know when when little bit because you know when when little bit because you know when when you sent and we asked for some notes in you sent and we asked for some notes in you sent and we asked for some notes in advance of this conversation. I'll just advance of this conversation. I'll just advance of this conversation. I'll just I'll just read one thing here because I'll just read one thing here because I'll just read one thing here because >> I don't remember now. So, I got you're >> I don't remember now. So, I got you're >> I don't remember now. So, I got you're going to get me on this. going to get me on this. going to get me on this. >> Oh, I'll tell you. It's great. It just >> Oh, I'll tell you. It's great. It just >> Oh, I'll tell you. It's great. It just says, "No hacks for me. I try to focus says, "No hacks for me. I try to focus says, "No hacks for me. I try to focus on systems or strategies that will hold on systems or strategies that will hold on systems or strategies that will hold up over time." Right. And I'm wondering, up over time." Right. And I'm wondering, up over time." Right. And I'm wondering, for instance, whether it's in your for instance, whether it's in your for instance, whether it's in your current role or where we left off in current role or where we left off in current role or where we left off in terms of your timeline terms of your timeline terms of your timeline as you're soliciting information from as you're soliciting information from as you're soliciting information from [snorts] the community and they're [snorts] the community and they're [snorts] the community and they're offering more because you're showing not offering more because you're showing not offering more because you're showing not just the announcement of the bad thing, just the announcement of the bad thing, just the announcement of the bad thing, but that you actually took action but that you actually took action but that you actually took action related to their help that closed cases, related to their help that closed cases, related to their help that closed cases, etc., etc. How do you ensure that the etc., etc. How do you ensure that the etc., etc. How do you ensure that the department or department or department or the organization that you're a part of the organization that you're a part of the organization that you're a part of is equipped to digest that? And is equipped to digest that? And is equipped to digest that? And [clears throat] I'm not sure that's an [clears throat] I'm not sure that's an [clears throat] I'm not sure that's an easy question to answer, but I'll just easy question to answer, but I'll just easy question to answer, but I'll just leave it there. leave it there. leave it there. >> No, it's not an easy question to answer, >> No, it's not an easy question to answer, >> No, it's not an easy question to answer, but I would say this. I experienced in but I would say this. I experienced in but I would say this. I experienced in 200. 200. 200. So, I I pushed technology very very hard So, I I pushed technology very very hard So, I I pushed technology very very hard once I became the chief. When I took once I became the chief. When I took once I became the chief. When I took over as the chief, we had Teletubby over as the chief, we had Teletubby over as the chief, we had Teletubby pagers. We didn't even have cell phones. pagers. We didn't even have cell phones. pagers. We didn't even have cell phones. And I wanted everybody to have And I wanted everybody to have And I wanted everybody to have smartphones. the early smartphones. The smartphones. the early smartphones. The smartphones. the early smartphones. The first one we got was a trio. first one we got was a trio. first one we got was a trio. >> We had pump pilots and trios, right? If >> We had pump pilots and trios, right? If >> We had pump pilots and trios, right? If you remember that far back. you remember that far back. you remember that far back. >> Sure, I do. >> Sure, I do. >> Sure, I do. >> And then we pushed putting computers in >> And then we pushed putting computers in >> And then we pushed putting computers in the cars and we pushed the technology, the cars and we pushed the technology, the cars and we pushed the technology, gunshot detection technology, cameras, gunshot detection technology, cameras, gunshot detection technology, cameras, integrating those gunshot detection integrating those gunshot detection integrating those gunshot detection technologies, cameras, all those things technologies, cameras, all those things technologies, cameras, all those things together. I really wanted technology to together. I really wanted technology to together. I really wanted technology to be those systems, right? Taking all this be those systems, right? Taking all this be those systems, right? Taking all this great technology that's coming out, make great technology that's coming out, make great technology that's coming out, make us more effective and more efficient as us more effective and more efficient as us more effective and more efficient as police officers, right? Instead of police officers, right? Instead of police officers, right? Instead of spending three hours handwriting an spending three hours handwriting an spending three hours handwriting an accident report, we could pull up on the accident report, we could pull up on the accident report, we could pull up on the scene of an accident report, have a iPad scene of an accident report, have a iPad scene of an accident report, have a iPad or a laptop in the cruiser, that GPS or a laptop in the cruiser, that GPS or a laptop in the cruiser, that GPS drops the intersection on a police drops the intersection on a police drops the intersection on a police report and all I got to do is plink a report and all I got to do is plink a report and all I got to do is plink a little car down there and my police little car down there and my police little car down there and my police report now takes 10 minutes instead of report now takes 10 minutes instead of report now takes 10 minutes instead of two hours. Right? So, I brought all this two hours. Right? So, I brought all this two hours. Right? So, I brought all this technology and the systems that made us technology and the systems that made us technology and the systems that made us better. It made us more effective and I better. It made us more effective and I better. It made us more effective and I relied a lot on people. I mean, relied a lot on people. I mean, relied a lot on people. I mean, everything I did, I learned from the everything I did, I learned from the everything I did, I learned from the people that work for me and the people people that work for me and the people people that work for me and the people in the community. I made it a point to in the community. I made it a point to in the community. I made it a point to go out and talk to people and listen. go out and talk to people and listen. go out and talk to people and listen. Everything I learned about fighting Everything I learned about fighting Everything I learned about fighting crime that was effective, I got it from crime that was effective, I got it from crime that was effective, I got it from walking around the community and giving walking around the community and giving walking around the community and giving my cell phone number out, listening to my cell phone number out, listening to my cell phone number out, listening to what people had to say. Cuz if you what people had to say. Cuz if you what people had to say. Cuz if you listen to people, they will tell you listen to people, they will tell you listen to people, they will tell you what to do. and my officers, my what to do. and my officers, my what to do. and my officers, my detectives, my sergeants, my detectives, my sergeants, my detectives, my sergeants, my lieutenants, those guys. When I did my lieutenants, those guys. When I did my lieutenants, those guys. When I did my strategic planning sessions, I would strategic planning sessions, I would strategic planning sessions, I would bring in from all of those groups and, bring in from all of those groups and, bring in from all of those groups and, you know, brainstorm with them, what are you know, brainstorm with them, what are you know, brainstorm with them, what are the things we need? How can we do the things we need? How can we do the things we need? How can we do better? What do you need that you don't better? What do you need that you don't better? What do you need that you don't have? What are the crime trends that have? What are the crime trends that have? What are the crime trends that you're seeing? But I witnessed this you're seeing? But I witnessed this you're seeing? But I witnessed this evolution of technology and crime. And evolution of technology and crime. And evolution of technology and crime. And we had to get our police department to we had to get our police department to we had to get our police department to adjust to meet that evolution, right? We adjust to meet that evolution, right? We adjust to meet that evolution, right? We didn't we hire cops for a 25 year didn't we hire cops for a 25 year didn't we hire cops for a 25 year career. And when this technological career. And when this technological career. And when this technological crime evolution was happening, we had crime evolution was happening, we had crime evolution was happening, we had detectives that didn't know how to detectives that didn't know how to detectives that didn't know how to manage a crime scene with seven manage a crime scene with seven manage a crime scene with seven different cameras they had to download different cameras they had to download different cameras they had to download to get video of the crime scene. They to get video of the crime scene. They to get video of the crime scene. They didn't know how to mobiley forensically didn't know how to mobiley forensically didn't know how to mobiley forensically dump a phone. You arrest a guy who just dump a phone. You arrest a guy who just dump a phone. You arrest a guy who just did some armed robberies, right? And the did some armed robberies, right? And the did some armed robberies, right? And the biggest case, and I'm sure you in your biggest case, and I'm sure you in your biggest case, and I'm sure you in your research, you saw this Thomas Maslin research, you saw this Thomas Maslin research, you saw this Thomas Maslin case. There was a case that really kind case. There was a case that really kind case. There was a case that really kind of set this in stone for me. This poor of set this in stone for me. This poor of set this in stone for me. This poor gentleman who was robbed for his cell gentleman who was robbed for his cell gentleman who was robbed for his cell phone one night. He's beaten with a phone one night. He's beaten with a phone one night. He's beaten with a baseball bat. They crush his skull. They baseball bat. They crush his skull. They baseball bat. They crush his skull. They take his phone. Those same suspects, we take his phone. Those same suspects, we take his phone. Those same suspects, we find Mr. Maslin the next day with his find Mr. Maslin the next day with his find Mr. Maslin the next day with his skull crushed, barely alive, no cell skull crushed, barely alive, no cell skull crushed, barely alive, no cell phone. We don't know where his cell phone. We don't know where his cell phone. We don't know where his cell phone is. He's in the hospital. Well, phone is. He's in the hospital. Well, phone is. He's in the hospital. Well, what we don't know is that same night, what we don't know is that same night, what we don't know is that same night, right after they robbed him, that same right after they robbed him, that same right after they robbed him, that same group of kids went to Adam's Morgan, group of kids went to Adam's Morgan, group of kids went to Adam's Morgan, another neighborhood, and they robbed another neighborhood, and they robbed another neighborhood, and they robbed three more people, and they were three more people, and they were three more people, and they were arrested. And when they were arrested, arrested. And when they were arrested, arrested. And when they were arrested, they had multiple cell phones on them. they had multiple cell phones on them. they had multiple cell phones on them. They were robbing people for their cell They were robbing people for their cell They were robbing people for their cell phones because they were going to go and phones because they were going to go and phones because they were going to go and turn those phones in and make money. And turn those phones in and make money. And turn those phones in and make money. And all those cell phones were recovered as all those cell phones were recovered as all those cell phones were recovered as evidence and put on the books, but evidence and put on the books, but evidence and put on the books, but nobody knew that Thomas Maslin's phone nobody knew that Thomas Maslin's phone nobody knew that Thomas Maslin's phone was in that books because we didn't have was in that books because we didn't have was in that books because we didn't have anybody that had the digital forensic anybody that had the digital forensic anybody that had the digital forensic skill to dump those phones and figure skill to dump those phones and figure skill to dump those phones and figure out whose phones they were. And when we out whose phones they were. And when we out whose phones they were. And when we finally did figure that out months finally did figure that out months finally did figure that out months later, I said, "This is never going to later, I said, "This is never going to later, I said, "This is never going to happen again. happen again. happen again. >> We need to have people that are trained >> We need to have people that are trained >> We need to have people that are trained to have that skill. And if we can't to have that skill. And if we can't to have that skill. And if we can't train our detectives to do it or we they train our detectives to do it or we they train our detectives to do it or we they don't have the bandwidth to do it, then don't have the bandwidth to do it, then don't have the bandwidth to do it, then we're going to hire civilians to do it. we're going to hire civilians to do it. we're going to hire civilians to do it. But we're going to have that skill and But we're going to have that skill and But we're going to have that skill and we're going to have it out on the street we're going to have it out on the street we're going to have it out on the street daily." And so we did we hired criminal daily." And so we did we hired criminal daily." And so we did we hired criminal research specialists. We hired some research specialists. We hired some research specialists. We hired some other civilians for for digital other civilians for for digital other civilians for for digital forensics. So we went through this forensics. So we went through this forensics. So we went through this evolution and it is building systems evolution and it is building systems evolution and it is building systems that will endure over time and policing that will endure over time and policing that will endure over time and policing was not designed that way. So we had to was not designed that way. So we had to was not designed that way. So we had to really change the way we do policing and really change the way we do policing and really change the way we do policing and now police departments are are doing now police departments are are doing now police departments are are doing much better at keeping pace with much better at keeping pace with much better at keeping pace with technology. Before we get to maybe the technology. Before we get to maybe the technology. Before we get to maybe the differences between differences between differences between your experience in law enforcement your experience in law enforcement your experience in law enforcement and everything that preceded the NFL and and everything that preceded the NFL and and everything that preceded the NFL and the NFL, could you just give people an the NFL, could you just give people an the NFL, could you just give people an idea of the scope of your idea of the scope of your idea of the scope of your responsibilities at the NFL? What are responsibilities at the NFL? What are responsibilities at the NFL? What are you responsible for? you responsible for? you responsible for? >> Everything related to security. So, >> Everything related to security. So, >> Everything related to security. So, executive protection, I set the executive protection, I set the executive protection, I set the standards for physical security and standards for physical security and standards for physical security and cyber security at the stadiums. So all cyber security at the stadiums. So all cyber security at the stadiums. So all of the stadiums, the 30 stadiums across of the stadiums, the 30 stadiums across of the stadiums, the 30 stadiums across the US and our international stadiums, a the US and our international stadiums, a the US and our international stadiums, a little bit variation on the little bit variation on the little bit variation on the international, but across all the US international, but across all the US international, but across all the US stadiums, we set the requirements for stadiums, we set the requirements for stadiums, we set the requirements for security that they have to meet. So once security that they have to meet. So once security that they have to meet. So once we set that standard, we update it we set that standard, we update it we set that standard, we update it annually. We do the audits and red annually. We do the audits and red annually. We do the audits and red teaming and we make sure that they are teaming and we make sure that they are teaming and we make sure that they are meeting those standards. So physical meeting those standards. So physical meeting those standards. So physical security, cyber security, both. We also security, cyber security, both. We also security, cyber security, both. We also have investigative responsibilities. So have investigative responsibilities. So have investigative responsibilities. So violations of the personal conduct violations of the personal conduct violations of the personal conduct policy, those are all investigations policy, those are all investigations policy, those are all investigations that are done by my team. We have game that are done by my team. We have game that are done by my team. We have game integrity. So, management of the game integrity. So, management of the game integrity. So, management of the game integrity program. So, making sure that integrity program. So, making sure that integrity program. So, making sure that we are maintaining the integrity of this we are maintaining the integrity of this we are maintaining the integrity of this game. game. game. >> There's a a lot involved in that. If >> There's a a lot involved in that. If >> There's a a lot involved in that. If it's got anything to do with security, it's got anything to do with security, it's got anything to do with security, it falls on us. Individually, the league it falls on us. Individually, the league it falls on us. Individually, the league office has full responsibility for Super office has full responsibility for Super office has full responsibility for Super Bowl, Pro Bowl, combine, draft, and all Bowl, Pro Bowl, combine, draft, and all Bowl, Pro Bowl, combine, draft, and all the International Series games. So when the International Series games. So when the International Series games. So when I say we have nine international games I say we have nine international games I say we have nine international games this year, the reason scheduling this is this year, the reason scheduling this is this year, the reason scheduling this is so hard. Each one of those international so hard. Each one of those international so hard. Each one of those international games I will take a team out in advance games I will take a team out in advance games I will take a team out in advance at least two trips if not three. And at least two trips if not three. And at least two trips if not three. And we've got nine international games this we've got nine international games this we've got nine international games this year. And I'm also working on we plan year. And I'm also working on we plan year. And I'm also working on we plan Super Bowl about 18 months out in Super Bowl about 18 months out in Super Bowl about 18 months out in advance because that's 10 days of events advance because that's 10 days of events advance because that's 10 days of events over 20ome venues. And then draft. So over 20ome venues. And then draft. So over 20ome venues. And then draft. So draft I'm leaving for Pittsburgh on draft I'm leaving for Pittsburgh on draft I'm leaving for Pittsburgh on Sunday to go manage the draft for the Sunday to go manage the draft for the Sunday to go manage the draft for the next seven or eight days. So special next seven or eight days. So special next seven or eight days. So special events, 10 pull events, that's a big big events, 10 pull events, that's a big big events, 10 pull events, that's a big big part of it. part of it. part of it. >> Yeah. So tons of free time. I'm >> Yeah. So tons of free time. I'm >> Yeah. So tons of free time. I'm >> tons of free time. [laughter] >> tons of free time. [laughter] >> tons of free time. [laughter] >> 170 days on the road last year. >> 170 days on the road last year. >> 170 days on the road last year. >> Oh my lordy. So red teaming is a really >> Oh my lordy. So red teaming is a really >> Oh my lordy. So red teaming is a really critical concept that I want people to critical concept that I want people to critical concept that I want people to understand. Some folks may recognize it understand. Some folks may recognize it understand. Some folks may recognize it within the context of say tech given the within the context of say tech given the within the context of say tech given the types of people that I've interviewed types of people that I've interviewed types of people that I've interviewed before. before. before. >> Yeah. in terms of paying people to try >> Yeah. in terms of paying people to try >> Yeah. in terms of paying people to try to break into your systems, let's just to break into your systems, let's just to break into your systems, let's just say, or to take down your service or to say, or to take down your service or to say, or to take down your service or to fill in the blank, but they're on your fill in the blank, but they're on your fill in the blank, but they're on your side. I wonder where red teaming I side. I wonder where red teaming I side. I wonder where red teaming I should know this comes from as well. should know this comes from as well. should know this comes from as well. >> Military >> Military >> Military >> military pretending to be the Soviets, >> military pretending to be the Soviets, >> military pretending to be the Soviets, right? Probably right? Probably right? Probably >> it's the military. I mean, it was a >> it's the military. I mean, it was a >> it's the military. I mean, it was a military concept initially. And think military concept initially. And think military concept initially. And think about it this way. You got to look at it about it this way. You got to look at it about it this way. You got to look at it a little differently. I think on the a little differently. I think on the a little differently. I think on the tech side it is a little different but I tech side it is a little different but I tech side it is a little different but I think of red teaming as we set a think of red teaming as we set a think of red teaming as we set a standard like we think use of standard like we think use of standard like we think use of magnetometers to screen for weapons. We magnetometers to screen for weapons. We magnetometers to screen for weapons. We think use of a perimeter to make sure think use of a perimeter to make sure think use of a perimeter to make sure everybody goes through screening. All everybody goes through screening. All everybody goes through screening. All these standards we put in place of these standards we put in place of these standards we put in place of security, right? I can go and audit you security, right? I can go and audit you security, right? I can go and audit you and you have all those standards in and you have all those standards in and you have all those standards in place. But what a red team operation place. But what a red team operation place. But what a red team operation does is it's quality assurance. Are does is it's quality assurance. Are does is it's quality assurance. Are those standards working? Did I tell you those standards working? Did I tell you those standards working? Did I tell you to do something that didn't necessarily to do something that didn't necessarily to do something that didn't necessarily work? So it tells you if the standards work? So it tells you if the standards work? So it tells you if the standards that you were using are effective or that you were using are effective or that you were using are effective or not? Maybe that you put them in place, not? Maybe that you put them in place, not? Maybe that you put them in place, but you didn't execute them properly, so but you didn't execute them properly, so but you didn't execute them properly, so they're not effective. So if you're not they're not effective. So if you're not they're not effective. So if you're not properly doing secondary screening, it's properly doing secondary screening, it's properly doing secondary screening, it's not that the magnetometers didn't work. not that the magnetometers didn't work. not that the magnetometers didn't work. It's that your guard didn't respond It's that your guard didn't respond It's that your guard didn't respond properly to an alert. Right? So it's a properly to an alert. Right? So it's a properly to an alert. Right? So it's a quality assurance. That's a quality quality assurance. That's a quality quality assurance. That's a quality assurance test to see if the standards assurance test to see if the standards assurance test to see if the standards that you are employing or you're that you are employing or you're that you are employing or you're requiring are being used properly and requiring are being used properly and requiring are being used properly and are they effective. That's the key. It's are they effective. That's the key. It's are they effective. That's the key. It's not a gotcha. It's like not a gotcha. It's like not a gotcha. It's like >> is what we're doing effective and if >> is what we're doing effective and if >> is what we're doing effective and if it's not effective, how can we make it it's not effective, how can we make it it's not effective, how can we make it effective? How are your responsibilities effective? How are your responsibilities effective? How are your responsibilities or your job with the NFL most different or your job with the NFL most different or your job with the NFL most different from what you did beforehand? I'm just from what you did beforehand? I'm just from what you did beforehand? I'm just uh imagining there might be new uh imagining there might be new uh imagining there might be new constraints, what you can or can't do, constraints, what you can or can't do, constraints, what you can or can't do, even though you're coordinating with even though you're coordinating with even though you're coordinating with federal, state, and local law entities. federal, state, and local law entities. federal, state, and local law entities. I mean, just imagining what that entails I mean, just imagining what that entails I mean, just imagining what that entails with 32 clubs is makes my head spin. But with 32 clubs is makes my head spin. But with 32 clubs is makes my head spin. But how is it most different from what you how is it most different from what you how is it most different from what you did before? did before? did before? >> I'd say it's most different in terms of >> I'd say it's most different in terms of >> I'd say it's most different in terms of its diversity. So I thought coming from its diversity. So I thought coming from its diversity. So I thought coming from 27 years in the nation's capital 27 years in the nation's capital 27 years in the nation's capital managing SOD I managed every managing SOD I managed every managing SOD I managed every large event protest demonstration. We large event protest demonstration. We large event protest demonstration. We had about 2,300 a year that I was had about 2,300 a year that I was had about 2,300 a year that I was responsible for when I was there responsible for when I was there responsible for when I was there [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and then presidential inaugurations. I and then presidential inaugurations. I and then presidential inaugurations. I was like this is easy. Like I can come was like this is easy. Like I can come was like this is easy. Like I can come to the NFL. This Super Bowl thing is to the NFL. This Super Bowl thing is to the NFL. This Super Bowl thing is going to be nothing. Like this is going going to be nothing. Like this is going going to be nothing. Like this is going to be a walk in the park. And the to be a walk in the park. And the to be a walk in the park. And the diversity here is the complexity here is diversity here is the complexity here is diversity here is the complexity here is so much more. It's so much more complex so much more. It's so much more complex so much more. It's so much more complex and the diversity. So, I'm not only and the diversity. So, I'm not only and the diversity. So, I'm not only setting up the equivalent of a setting up the equivalent of a setting up the equivalent of a presidential inauguration that I did presidential inauguration that I did presidential inauguration that I did every four years before. Every year it's every four years before. Every year it's every four years before. Every year it's Super Bowl, but the Super Bowl is more Super Bowl, but the Super Bowl is more Super Bowl, but the Super Bowl is more complex. It's spread over 10 days over complex. It's spread over 10 days over complex. It's spread over 10 days over 26 venues and it moves every year. So, 26 venues and it moves every year. So, 26 venues and it moves every year. So, it's in a different place. So, I've got it's in a different place. So, I've got it's in a different place. So, I've got to build all those relationships. I've to build all those relationships. I've to build all those relationships. I've got to learn all those new venues. I've got to learn all those new venues. I've got to learn all those new venues. I've got to figure out security in a got to figure out security in a got to figure out security in a completely different climate. In completely different climate. In completely different climate. In Minneapolis, it was 25 below zero. Guess Minneapolis, it was 25 below zero. Guess Minneapolis, it was 25 below zero. Guess what? Some technology doesn't work in what? Some technology doesn't work in what? Some technology doesn't work in that 25 below zero. some of the things that 25 below zero. some of the things that 25 below zero. some of the things that we do in Arizona is not going to that we do in Arizona is not going to that we do in Arizona is not going to work in Minneapolis. work in Minneapolis. work in Minneapolis. And then now with international, right, And then now with international, right, And then now with international, right, we try and go and implement our full we try and go and implement our full we try and go and implement our full suite of security standards in Madrid suite of security standards in Madrid suite of security standards in Madrid and Sa Paulo and Australia and Munich, and Sa Paulo and Australia and Munich, and Sa Paulo and Australia and Munich, but when we get there, 20% of what we do but when we get there, 20% of what we do but when we get there, 20% of what we do is going to have to be adapted to the is going to have to be adapted to the is going to have to be adapted to the local environment. Right? There's laws local environment. Right? There's laws local environment. Right? There's laws and regulations and things that are and regulations and things that are and regulations and things that are different in different countries, right? different in different countries, right? different in different countries, right? Things that we do here, you can't do Things that we do here, you can't do Things that we do here, you can't do there. Things they do there, we can't do there. Things they do there, we can't do there. Things they do there, we can't do here. Mhm. here. Mhm. here. Mhm. >> The complexity of what I do now is far >> The complexity of what I do now is far >> The complexity of what I do now is far more complicated and it's far more more complicated and it's far more more complicated and it's far more diverse than what I used to do. diverse than what I used to do. diverse than what I used to do. >> And by diverse, you just mean constantly >> And by diverse, you just mean constantly >> And by diverse, you just mean constantly shifting like you mentioned these shifting like you mentioned these shifting like you mentioned these different locations with different locations with different locations with >> there's no template. Like I can't say, >> there's no template. Like I can't say, >> there's no template. Like I can't say, hey, you know, it's inauguration. This hey, you know, it's inauguration. This hey, you know, it's inauguration. This is what we do for the inauguration. The is what we do for the inauguration. The is what we do for the inauguration. The ball sites are all the same. We do the ball sites are all the same. We do the ball sites are all the same. We do the same things. We know what to do with the same things. We know what to do with the same things. We know what to do with the inauguration. This is every time it's inauguration. This is every time it's inauguration. This is every time it's like you just take the old plan and like you just take the old plan and like you just take the old plan and throw it away. Start all over. throw it away. Start all over. throw it away. Start all over. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Pretty much. Not completely, but pretty Pretty much. Not completely, but pretty Pretty much. Not completely, but pretty much. much. much. >> Yeah. Well, there's no shortage of >> Yeah. Well, there's no shortage of >> Yeah. Well, there's no shortage of learning. learning. learning. >> You don't want to start with any >> You don't want to start with any >> You don't want to start with any assumptions. No assumptions, that's for assumptions. No assumptions, that's for assumptions. No assumptions, that's for sure. sure. sure. >> Shift gears just a little bit. I'm >> Shift gears just a little bit. I'm >> Shift gears just a little bit. I'm wondering if wondering if wondering if are there any books that you recommend are there any books that you recommend are there any books that you recommend or resources, this doesn't have to be or resources, this doesn't have to be or resources, this doesn't have to be within the context of the NFL, but when within the context of the NFL, but when within the context of the NFL, but when I I imagine you get approached by people I I imagine you get approached by people I I imagine you get approached by people who are hoping to learn from you in one who are hoping to learn from you in one who are hoping to learn from you in one way or another, or you are just way or another, or you are just way or another, or you are just mentoring people, right? whether that mentoring people, right? whether that mentoring people, right? whether that was in policing or within the NFL or in was in policing or within the NFL or in was in policing or within the NFL or in other contexts. Are there any books that other contexts. Are there any books that other contexts. Are there any books that you recommend frequently to other you recommend frequently to other you recommend frequently to other people, doesn't need to be non-fiction, people, doesn't need to be non-fiction, people, doesn't need to be non-fiction, could be anything. could be anything. could be anything. >> So, I'd say my favorite book of all >> So, I'd say my favorite book of all >> So, I'd say my favorite book of all times, and I made it mandatory reading times, and I made it mandatory reading times, and I made it mandatory reading for my command staff when I took over as for my command staff when I took over as for my command staff when I took over as the chief, which was a hoot because the chief, which was a hoot because the chief, which was a hoot because nobody ever made our command staff read nobody ever made our command staff read nobody ever made our command staff read anything before. And I also did a book anything before. And I also did a book anything before. And I also did a book club. I also used this book and did a club. I also used this book and did a club. I also used this book and did a book club with the community. The book club with the community. The book club with the community. The Tipping Point, Tipping Point, Tipping Point, >> Malcolm Gladwell. One of my all-time >> Malcolm Gladwell. One of my all-time >> Malcolm Gladwell. One of my all-time favorite reads because it forces you to favorite reads because it forces you to favorite reads because it forces you to understand that no matter what your understand that no matter what your understand that no matter what your challenge or no matter what your problem challenge or no matter what your problem challenge or no matter what your problem is, goes back to problem solving. is, goes back to problem solving. is, goes back to problem solving. >> Whatever the problem is you're trying to >> Whatever the problem is you're trying to >> Whatever the problem is you're trying to solve, there is a tipping point. You solve, there is a tipping point. You solve, there is a tipping point. You just have to know what that tipping just have to know what that tipping just have to know what that tipping point is. And I love that book. It's a point is. And I love that book. It's a point is. And I love that book. It's a great I've read it three times, I think. great I've read it three times, I think. great I've read it three times, I think. >> It's a great book. So, that's one of my >> It's a great book. So, that's one of my >> It's a great book. So, that's one of my favorites. It just makes you think favorites. It just makes you think favorites. It just makes you think differently. What did you hope people differently. What did you hope people differently. What did you hope people reading it would take away to apply? reading it would take away to apply? reading it would take away to apply? Like how might that change how they act Like how might that change how they act Like how might that change how they act on the job or think and then therefore on the job or think and then therefore on the job or think and then therefore act on the job? act on the job? act on the job? >> Well, it doesn't matter what you're >> Well, it doesn't matter what you're >> Well, it doesn't matter what you're doing, what your profession is. If you doing, what your profession is. If you doing, what your profession is. If you read the tipping point, the key point is read the tipping point, the key point is read the tipping point, the key point is that you can turn around any situation. that you can turn around any situation. that you can turn around any situation. You can solve any problem if you're You can solve any problem if you're You can solve any problem if you're paying close enough attention to the paying close enough attention to the paying close enough attention to the details that you can hit that tipping details that you can hit that tipping details that you can hit that tipping point. What is the tipping point to turn point. What is the tipping point to turn point. What is the tipping point to turn around around around >> high levels of violence in a community? >> high levels of violence in a community? >> high levels of violence in a community? What is the tipping point to What is the tipping point to What is the tipping point to [clears throat] turn around whatever [clears throat] turn around whatever [clears throat] turn around whatever your problem is? I would also say Blink. your problem is? I would also say Blink. your problem is? I would also say Blink. Blink is another one that I only read Blink is another one that I only read Blink is another one that I only read because I liked Malcolm Gladwell, but because I liked Malcolm Gladwell, but because I liked Malcolm Gladwell, but Blink for people in highpaced Blink for people in highpaced Blink for people in highpaced professions. professions. professions. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Blink is one that helps you really >> Blink is one that helps you really >> Blink is one that helps you really evaluate how you make decisions. evaluate how you make decisions. evaluate how you make decisions. >> How you rely on your instinct and your >> How you rely on your instinct and your >> How you rely on your instinct and your experience and how much that matters. experience and how much that matters. experience and how much that matters. So, those are two of my favorites. The So, those are two of my favorites. The So, those are two of my favorites. The only thing I read, Tim, is stuff about only thing I read, Tim, is stuff about only thing I read, Tim, is stuff about my job. I I read work stuff. Yeah. my job. I I read work stuff. Yeah. my job. I I read work stuff. Yeah. >> So, nothing really fun. [laughter] >> So, nothing really fun. [laughter] >> So, nothing really fun. [laughter] Well, let me come back to the I suppose Well, let me come back to the I suppose Well, let me come back to the I suppose this all relates everything relates to this all relates everything relates to this all relates everything relates to making decisions, but especially kind of performing [snorts] kind of performing [snorts] under extreme and sustained pressure. under extreme and sustained pressure. under extreme and sustained pressure. And I would imagine that of course part And I would imagine that of course part And I would imagine that of course part of the hiring process for a lot of the of the hiring process for a lot of the of the hiring process for a lot of the people who report to you, let's just say people who report to you, let's just say people who report to you, let's just say or within your organization, you're or within your organization, you're or within your organization, you're already vetting for people who can already vetting for people who can already vetting for people who can operate at a high level with sustained operate at a high level with sustained operate at a high level with sustained pressure where they also have to be very pressure where they also have to be very pressure where they also have to be very good at improvising when conditions good at improvising when conditions good at improvising when conditions change and so on. But if you were change and so on. But if you were change and so on. But if you were teaching a class to could be high school teaching a class to could be high school teaching a class to could be high school students, college students on sort of students, college students on sort of students, college students on sort of resilience and handling pressure, right? resilience and handling pressure, right? resilience and handling pressure, right? Some people buckle and sometimes you Some people buckle and sometimes you Some people buckle and sometimes you learn by buckling and then you figure learn by buckling and then you figure learn by buckling and then you figure out how to approach it next time. out how to approach it next time. out how to approach it next time. What would you tell them about What would you tell them about What would you tell them about making decisions under pressure and making decisions under pressure and making decisions under pressure and acting under pressure as opposed to acting under pressure as opposed to acting under pressure as opposed to becoming paralyzed? How would you even becoming paralyzed? How would you even becoming paralyzed? How would you even begin to talk to them about that? begin to talk to them about that? begin to talk to them about that? >> I would say it's I don't care who you >> I would say it's I don't care who you >> I would say it's I don't care who you are. It's not 100% instinct, right? Mhm. are. It's not 100% instinct, right? Mhm. are. It's not 100% instinct, right? Mhm. >> Your body is going to react in a crisis >> Your body is going to react in a crisis >> Your body is going to react in a crisis to what it knows. So if it's a situation to what it knows. So if it's a situation to what it knows. So if it's a situation where you have trained for it or you've where you have trained for it or you've where you have trained for it or you've thought about it or you've prepared for thought about it or you've prepared for thought about it or you've prepared for it or you in your mind you've walked it or you in your mind you've walked it or you in your mind you've walked through it, you're going to be in a lot through it, you're going to be in a lot through it, you're going to be in a lot better position than if it's something better position than if it's something better position than if it's something that's never crossed your mind. This is that's never crossed your mind. This is that's never crossed your mind. This is where kind of preparedness crosses that where kind of preparedness crosses that where kind of preparedness crosses that line. Like this is why we try and line. Like this is why we try and line. Like this is why we try and encourage people to be prepared. know encourage people to be prepared. know encourage people to be prepared. know when you walk into a building what are when you walk into a building what are when you walk into a building what are the two different ways you can get out the two different ways you can get out the two different ways you can get out not just the way you came in is there not just the way you came in is there not just the way you came in is there other ways you can get out of this other ways you can get out of this other ways you can get out of this building right building right building right >> so everybody's going to freeze initially >> so everybody's going to freeze initially >> so everybody's going to freeze initially I think to a certain extent if you have I think to a certain extent if you have I think to a certain extent if you have no experience nothing in your brain that no experience nothing in your brain that no experience nothing in your brain that your brain can go back to to to have you your brain can go back to to to have you your brain can go back to to to have you act but in terms of being in a in a act but in terms of being in a in a act but in terms of being in a in a workplace or a professional environment workplace or a professional environment workplace or a professional environment and making decisions as a leader and making decisions as a leader and making decisions as a leader >> if you have the knowledge that you need >> if you have the knowledge that you need >> if you have the knowledge that you need you've done your homework you've you've done your homework you've you've done your homework you've read everything that there is to read, read everything that there is to read, read everything that there is to read, you've got your education, you've got you've got your education, you've got you've got your education, you've got experience, decision- making becomes experience, decision- making becomes experience, decision- making becomes easy, right? As each time you go up in a easy, right? As each time you go up in a easy, right? As each time you go up in a different level of rank as a sergeant, different level of rank as a sergeant, different level of rank as a sergeant, when I first made sergeant, making when I first made sergeant, making when I first made sergeant, making decisions was a little tough at first decisions was a little tough at first decisions was a little tough at first because I was still pretty inexperienced because I was still pretty inexperienced because I was still pretty inexperienced myself. myself. myself. >> My job was to be more well read, >> My job was to be more well read, >> My job was to be more well read, understand the DC code a little better understand the DC code a little better understand the DC code a little better than the patrol officer, know what case than the patrol officer, know what case than the patrol officer, know what case law says. So if I didn't read that stuff law says. So if I didn't read that stuff law says. So if I didn't read that stuff and I didn't study, I would be and I didn't study, I would be and I didn't study, I would be uncomfortable making decisions and I uncomfortable making decisions and I uncomfortable making decisions and I would hesitate to make decisions. We had would hesitate to make decisions. We had would hesitate to make decisions. We had a lot of people that don't like to make a lot of people that don't like to make a lot of people that don't like to make decisions. But the more you read, the decisions. But the more you read, the decisions. But the more you read, the more you learn, the more you invest in more you learn, the more you invest in more you learn, the more you invest in your knowledge, the easier it is to make your knowledge, the easier it is to make your knowledge, the easier it is to make decisions. Like to me, decisions now decisions. Like to me, decisions now decisions. Like to me, decisions now with all of the years I'm in 36 years in with all of the years I'm in 36 years in with all of the years I'm in 36 years in this business and now I've again two this business and now I've again two this business and now I've again two master's degrees. I've [snorts] studied, master's degrees. I've [snorts] studied, master's degrees. I've [snorts] studied, I've got all this experience. decisions I've got all this experience. decisions I've got all this experience. decisions for me like boom boom boom boom. So it for me like boom boom boom boom. So it for me like boom boom boom boom. So it comes with experience. It comes with comes with experience. It comes with comes with experience. It comes with investment of time. It comes with investment of time. It comes with investment of time. It comes with preparing yourself to be able to make a preparing yourself to be able to make a preparing yourself to be able to make a decision. And of course people will decision. And of course people will decision. And of course people will throw things at me that I've never throw things at me that I've never throw things at me that I've never experienced before. But because I have experienced before. But because I have experienced before. But because I have all those other things to rely on, I can all those other things to rely on, I can all those other things to rely on, I can make a decision and I feel good about make a decision and I feel good about make a decision and I feel good about it. it. it. >> Well, I have to imagine also this is >> Well, I have to imagine also this is >> Well, I have to imagine also this is true in a lot of contexts outside of true in a lot of contexts outside of true in a lot of contexts outside of security or law enforcement. certainly security or law enforcement. certainly security or law enforcement. certainly applies to military but it kind of applies to military but it kind of applies to military but it kind of applies everywhere which is making applies everywhere which is making applies everywhere which is making decisions in the face of incomplete decisions in the face of incomplete decisions in the face of incomplete information information information >> right and so I'm wondering what you have >> right and so I'm wondering what you have >> right and so I'm wondering what you have learned about that learned about that learned about that making decisions biasing towards action making decisions biasing towards action making decisions biasing towards action when you have incomplete information when you have incomplete information when you have incomplete information how do you think about that how do you think about that how do you think about that >> it happens it happens a lot especially >> it happens it happens a lot especially >> it happens it happens a lot especially in first responder communities and in first responder communities and in first responder communities and military like you said it happens a lot military like you said it happens a lot military like you said it happens a lot going to have a complete picture. Again, going to have a complete picture. Again, going to have a complete picture. Again, I think your comfort level with being I think your comfort level with being I think your comfort level with being able to make those decisions is going to able to make those decisions is going to able to make those decisions is going to fall back on. Are you qualified to make fall back on. Are you qualified to make fall back on. Are you qualified to make that decision? If you feel qualified to that decision? If you feel qualified to that decision? If you feel qualified to make the decision, sometimes I got to make the decision, sometimes I got to make the decision, sometimes I got to make decisions without all the make decisions without all the make decisions without all the information. There's two things that go information. There's two things that go information. There's two things that go along with that. One is do the best you along with that. One is do the best you along with that. One is do the best you can based on what you know at the time, can based on what you know at the time, can based on what you know at the time, but know a decision has to be made. And but know a decision has to be made. And but know a decision has to be made. And then if you make the wrong decision, then if you make the wrong decision, then if you make the wrong decision, undo it. change it, fix it. Don't just undo it. change it, fix it. Don't just undo it. change it, fix it. Don't just stick with it because you've got to be stick with it because you've got to be stick with it because you've got to be the boss. And this is what I said. Admit the boss. And this is what I said. Admit the boss. And this is what I said. Admit you're wrong. Change course. Go another you're wrong. Change course. Go another you're wrong. Change course. Go another direction. That's where people get direction. That's where people get direction. That's where people get tripped up. Right? When I'm making a tripped up. Right? When I'm making a tripped up. Right? When I'm making a decision, I don't have full information. decision, I don't have full information. decision, I don't have full information. I'm thinking to myself as I'm making I'm thinking to myself as I'm making I'm thinking to myself as I'm making this decision, I can either go this way this decision, I can either go this way this decision, I can either go this way or I can go that way. If I go this way, or I can go that way. If I go this way, or I can go that way. If I go this way, what can go wrong? If I go this way, what can go wrong? If I go this way, what can go wrong? If I go this way, what can go wrong? Okay. Now, I'm going what can go wrong? Okay. Now, I'm going what can go wrong? Okay. Now, I'm going to go this way. If one of those things to go this way. If one of those things to go this way. If one of those things goes wrong, consequence thinking, right? goes wrong, consequence thinking, right? goes wrong, consequence thinking, right? If one of those things goes wrong, If one of those things goes wrong, If one of those things goes wrong, what's my course of action then? So, if what's my course of action then? So, if what's my course of action then? So, if I'm making a decision with incomplete I'm making a decision with incomplete I'm making a decision with incomplete information, as I'm making that decision information, as I'm making that decision information, as I'm making that decision and giving that command, I'm thinking and giving that command, I'm thinking and giving that command, I'm thinking about how I'm going to deal with the about how I'm going to deal with the about how I'm going to deal with the collateral damage if that was the wrong collateral damage if that was the wrong collateral damage if that was the wrong decision, decision, decision, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Because that's next. You make a bad >> Because that's next. You make a bad >> Because that's next. You make a bad decision, you can't just go, "Oh, shoot. decision, you can't just go, "Oh, shoot. decision, you can't just go, "Oh, shoot. Wow, darn." You know, [laughter] Wow, darn." You know, [laughter] Wow, darn." You know, [laughter] >> tough luck. >> tough luck. >> tough luck. >> You got, all right, fix it. Fix it. Fix >> You got, all right, fix it. Fix it. Fix >> You got, all right, fix it. Fix it. Fix it. Fix it. What are you going to do it. Fix it. What are you going to do it. Fix it. What are you going to do about it now? How are you going to fix about it now? How are you going to fix about it now? How are you going to fix it? it? it? Just a few more questions and then uh Just a few more questions and then uh Just a few more questions and then uh let you get back to your very busy day. let you get back to your very busy day. let you get back to your very busy day. If you could put this is metaphorically If you could put this is metaphorically If you could put this is metaphorically speaking like a message on a billboard speaking like a message on a billboard speaking like a message on a billboard or have a reminder on your desk that or have a reminder on your desk that or have a reminder on your desk that everybody sees when they come in. Could everybody sees when they come in. Could everybody sees when they come in. Could be a could be a quote, could be a be a could be a quote, could be a be a could be a quote, could be a mantra, could be anything. mantra, could be anything. mantra, could be anything. If you could put it on a billboard for If you could put it on a billboard for If you could put it on a billboard for millions of people to see, right? What millions of people to see, right? What millions of people to see, right? What might that be? I mean, is there anything might that be? I mean, is there anything might that be? I mean, is there anything that comes to mind? Could be someone that comes to mind? Could be someone that comes to mind? Could be someone else's quote. Could be something that else's quote. Could be something that else's quote. Could be something that you try to live your life by. Could be you try to live your life by. Could be you try to live your life by. Could be something you want everybody who who's something you want everybody who who's something you want everybody who who's within your organization to be reminded within your organization to be reminded within your organization to be reminded of of of or it could be something else entirely. or it could be something else entirely. or it could be something else entirely. Does anything come to mind? Does anything come to mind? Does anything come to mind? >> I mean, I tell people all the time, bad >> I mean, I tell people all the time, bad >> I mean, I tell people all the time, bad things happen to everybody, right? things happen to everybody, right? things happen to everybody, right? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Bad things happen to everybody. And a >> Bad things happen to everybody. And a >> Bad things happen to everybody. And a lot of times it's we do it to oursel. lot of times it's we do it to oursel. lot of times it's we do it to oursel. >> We make bad decisions. Bad things happen >> We make bad decisions. Bad things happen >> We make bad decisions. Bad things happen to us because of ourselves. Bad things to us because of ourselves. Bad things to us because of ourselves. Bad things happen to everybody. It's not about the happen to everybody. It's not about the happen to everybody. It's not about the bad decision you made or the bad thing bad decision you made or the bad thing bad decision you made or the bad thing that happened to you. It's what you do that happened to you. It's what you do that happened to you. It's what you do after that. after that. after that. >> So, it's easy to >> So, it's easy to >> So, it's easy to have some tragedy or some terrible thing have some tragedy or some terrible thing have some tragedy or some terrible thing happen to you and sit around and feel happen to you and sit around and feel happen to you and sit around and feel sorry for yourself or become a victim or sorry for yourself or become a victim or sorry for yourself or become a victim or let it define you. It's your attitude let it define you. It's your attitude let it define you. It's your attitude and your effort that you put into how and your effort that you put into how and your effort that you put into how you recover. So, it's not what happens you recover. So, it's not what happens you recover. So, it's not what happens to you. It's not the bad thing. It's how to you. It's not the bad thing. It's how to you. It's not the bad thing. It's how you handle those things that really you handle those things that really you handle those things that really matter in life. [clears throat] matter in life. [clears throat] matter in life. [clears throat] >> Because you can have one of two >> Because you can have one of two >> Because you can have one of two attitudes every time something bad attitudes every time something bad attitudes every time something bad happens. Which attitude are you going to happens. Which attitude are you going to happens. Which attitude are you going to pick? For me, it's going to be I wish pick? For me, it's going to be I wish pick? For me, it's going to be I wish that never had happened. I wish I'd that never had happened. I wish I'd that never had happened. I wish I'd never made that decision. I wish that never made that decision. I wish that never made that decision. I wish that had never happened. But you know what? had never happened. But you know what? had never happened. But you know what? I'm going to fix it. I'm going to I'm I'm going to fix it. I'm going to I'm I'm going to fix it. I'm going to I'm going to not let it define me. I'm not going to not let it define me. I'm not going to not let it define me. I'm not going to let it take me down. going to let it take me down. going to let it take me down. >> Well, Kathy, I mean, I think that's a >> Well, Kathy, I mean, I think that's a >> Well, Kathy, I mean, I think that's a pretty strong way to land this plane. pretty strong way to land this plane. pretty strong way to land this plane. So, So, So, >> you have the coolest job, by the way. I >> you have the coolest job, by the way. I >> you have the coolest job, by the way. I can't imagine how much you get to learn can't imagine how much you get to learn can't imagine how much you get to learn talking to so many people. And talking to so many people. And talking to so many people. And >> you must have a an encyclopedia in your >> you must have a an encyclopedia in your >> you must have a an encyclopedia in your brain. brain. brain. >> It's the best job. I mean, and it didn't >> It's the best job. I mean, and it didn't >> It's the best job. I mean, and it didn't come from some big long-term plan. It come from some big long-term plan. It come from some big long-term plan. It was kind of zigging and zagging with was kind of zigging and zagging with was kind of zigging and zagging with frankly I mean tying into what you said frankly I mean tying into what you said frankly I mean tying into what you said some really you know in retrospect with some really you know in retrospect with some really you know in retrospect with the information I had at the time there the information I had at the time there the information I had at the time there were good decisions about various things were good decisions about various things were good decisions about various things you know starting books but made some you know starting books but made some you know starting books but made some terrible decisions on deadlines where terrible decisions on deadlines where terrible decisions on deadlines where there were kind of suicide missions and there were kind of suicide missions and there were kind of suicide missions and ultimately just adapted and tried to ultimately just adapted and tried to ultimately just adapted and tried to make the best of make the best of make the best of a sequence of I would say in retrospect a sequence of I would say in retrospect a sequence of I would say in retrospect kind of poor decisions led to one of the kind of poor decisions led to one of the kind of poor decisions led to one of the best decisions right which I never best decisions right which I never best decisions right which I never thought would become this and here we thought would become this and here we thought would become this and here we are. So, are. So, are. So, >> good for you >> good for you >> good for you >> and thanks for being willing to do the >> and thanks for being willing to do the >> and thanks for being willing to do the dance and uh play some improv jazz in dance and uh play some improv jazz in dance and uh play some improv jazz in this conversation. Is there is there this conversation. Is there is there this conversation. Is there is there anything else you'd like to say or add, anything else you'd like to say or add, anything else you'd like to say or add, suggest to people, request of people? suggest to people, request of people? suggest to people, request of people? Anything at all before we wind to a Anything at all before we wind to a Anything at all before we wind to a close? close? close? >> No, just uh was a fascinating couple >> No, just uh was a fascinating couple >> No, just uh was a fascinating couple hours with you. You know, I'm an avid hours with you. You know, I'm an avid hours with you. You know, I'm an avid follower and really enjoyed my time follower and really enjoyed my time follower and really enjoyed my time here. So, thank you for including me. here. So, thank you for including me. here. So, thank you for including me. Oh, definitely. Kathy, thank you so Oh, definitely. Kathy, thank you so Oh, definitely. Kathy, thank you so much. I hope we get to see each other at much. I hope we get to see each other at much. I hope we get to see each other at some point. Who knows? Might get to your some point. Who knows? Might get to your some point. Who knows? Might get to your neck of the world. Probably will, neck of the world. Probably will, neck of the world. Probably will, actually. actually. actually. >> Please let me know if you do. New York >> Please let me know if you do. New York >> Please let me know if you do. New York or DC. Look me up. or DC. Look me up. or DC. Look me up. >> I'm in both. So, I'll keep you posted. >> I'm in both. So, I'll keep you posted. >> I'm in both. So, I'll keep you posted. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Thank you again for the time. And for >> Thank you again for the time. And for >> Thank you again for the time. And for everybody listening, we'll have show everybody listening, we'll have show everybody listening, we'll have show notes, links to everything that we notes, links to everything that we notes, links to everything that we talked about at tim.blog/mpodcast. talked about at tim.blog/mpodcast. talked about at tim.blog/mpodcast. As per usual, just search for Kathy and As per usual, just search for Kathy and As per usual, just search for Kathy and you will find this episode. Until next you will find this episode. Until next you will find this episode. Until next time, be just a bit kinder than is time, be just a bit kinder than is time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to necessary to others, but also to necessary to others, but also to yourself. And thanks for tuning in. yourself. And thanks for tuning in. yourself. And thanks for tuning in. >> Thanks, Tim.