From Dad’s Basement to Selling Two Companies — 4-Hour Workweek Success Story

Because when you're first starting out, Because when you're first starting out, nothing's working. Almost by definition, nothing's working. Almost by definition, nothing's working. Almost by definition, like you're starting something new. At like you're starting something new. At like you're starting something new. At least in my experience, when I'm least in my experience, when I'm least in my experience, when I'm starting something new, nothing's starting something new, nothing's starting something new, nothing's working. And then when something does, working. And then when something does, working. And then when something does, most people are like, "Okay, that works. most people are like, "Okay, that works. most people are like, "Okay, that works. Now, let's go something else." But Now, let's go something else." But Now, let's go something else." But instead, you should just take that instead, you should just take that instead, you should just take that niche. It's almost like a little niche niche. It's almost like a little niche niche. It's almost like a little niche when you're rock climbing. Just take when you're rock climbing. Just take when you're rock climbing. Just take that niche and just double down, triple that niche and just double down, triple that niche and just double down, triple down, quadrup. It should really be like down, quadrup. It should really be like down, quadrup. It should really be like 10x down on what works because it's so 10x down on what works because it's so 10x down on what works because it's so rare that you find something that works. rare that you find something that works. rare that you find something that works. And honestly, in most businesses, if you And honestly, in most businesses, if you And honestly, in most businesses, if you can find one thing that works and scale can find one thing that works and scale can find one thing that works and scale it up, that can get you pretty far. it up, that can get you pretty far. it up, that can get you pretty far. >> Brian, nice to meet you finally. Thank >> Brian, nice to meet you finally. Thank >> Brian, nice to meet you finally. Thank you for taking the time. Hey, great to you for taking the time. Hey, great to you for taking the time. Hey, great to be here. Brian, where should we begin? be here. Brian, where should we begin? be here. Brian, where should we begin? I'm thinking maybe because I'm thinking maybe because I'm thinking maybe because the impetus for this is somewhat around the impetus for this is somewhat around the impetus for this is somewhat around the connective tissue of the 4-hour work the connective tissue of the 4-hour work the connective tissue of the 4-hour work week. Should we just begin with how on week. Should we just begin with how on week. Should we just begin with how on earth you and the 4-hour work week earth you and the 4-hour work week earth you and the 4-hour work week intersected? Maybe we start there. So, intersected? Maybe we start there. So, intersected? Maybe we start there. So, it intersected at a really weird and it intersected at a really weird and it intersected at a really weird and sort of low time in my life where I had sort of low time in my life where I had sort of low time in my life where I had just started a PhD program at Purdue and just started a PhD program at Purdue and just started a PhD program at Purdue and I basically hated it. It was just I basically hated it. It was just I basically hated it. It was just overall not great experience. I went in overall not great experience. I went in overall not great experience. I went in gung-ho. I'm going to be a scientist and gung-ho. I'm going to be a scientist and gung-ho. I'm going to be a scientist and all this stuff. And then the hard all this stuff. And then the hard all this stuff. And then the hard reality of pipetting in a lab and having reality of pipetting in a lab and having reality of pipetting in a lab and having an adviser breathing down your neck was an adviser breathing down your neck was an adviser breathing down your neck was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm out. like, I can't do this anymore. I'm out. like, I can't do this anymore. I'm out. So, my plan was to get a job because I So, my plan was to get a job because I So, my plan was to get a job because I had a had a degree. I was like, "Let me had a had a degree. I was like, "Let me had a had a degree. I was like, "Let me get a job as a dietitian." get a job as a dietitian." get a job as a dietitian." Unfortunately, that didn't really work Unfortunately, that didn't really work Unfortunately, that didn't really work out and I ended up in my dad's basement. out and I ended up in my dad's basement. out and I ended up in my dad's basement. >> What was the timing of this? This was >> What was the timing of this? This was >> What was the timing of this? This was what year roughly? what year roughly? what year roughly? >> This was 2008. So, I think the book was >> This was 2008. So, I think the book was >> This was 2008. So, I think the book was relatively new then. relatively new then. relatively new then. >> Yeah, 2008. That would have been a year >> Yeah, 2008. That would have been a year >> Yeah, 2008. That would have been a year after publication, let's just say. And after publication, let's just say. And after publication, let's just say. And also not exactly the hottest job market also not exactly the hottest job market also not exactly the hottest job market for people who may not recall. It was a for people who may not recall. It was a for people who may not recall. It was a tough time overall because of the tough time overall because of the tough time overall because of the financial crisis. totally unbeknownst to financial crisis. totally unbeknownst to financial crisis. totally unbeknownst to me as a you know going to graduate me as a you know going to graduate me as a you know going to graduate school spending most of my time at bars school spending most of my time at bars school spending most of my time at bars drinking the great financial crisis was drinking the great financial crisis was drinking the great financial crisis was like over my head never heard of it like over my head never heard of it like over my head never heard of it until I tried to get a job and suddenly until I tried to get a job and suddenly until I tried to get a job and suddenly it became very real very fast so it became very real very fast so it became very real very fast so basically I was in my dad's basement basically I was in my dad's basement basically I was in my dad's basement broke no girlfriend obviously broke no girlfriend obviously broke no girlfriend obviously no real prospects like I'm just kind of no real prospects like I'm just kind of no real prospects like I'm just kind of lazily applying for jobs every morning lazily applying for jobs every morning lazily applying for jobs every morning and just sitting around and watching and just sitting around and watching and just sitting around and watching Jerry Springer in the afternoon that's Jerry Springer in the afternoon that's Jerry Springer in the afternoon that's pretty much my day. And then one day, I pretty much my day. And then one day, I pretty much my day. And then one day, I have an idea. I'm like, I I should start have an idea. I'm like, I I should start have an idea. I'm like, I I should start something. I don't know where this came something. I don't know where this came something. I don't know where this came from. I'm like, I should start a search from. I'm like, I should start a search from. I'm like, I should start a search engine for nutrition questions. When engine for nutrition questions. When engine for nutrition questions. When people ask like, how much vitamin C is people ask like, how much vitamin C is people ask like, how much vitamin C is in a carrot? It'll just give them the in a carrot? It'll just give them the in a carrot? It'll just give them the answers. This is like basically what an answers. This is like basically what an answers. This is like basically what an LLM would do way before and someone LLM would do way before and someone LLM would do way before and someone that's not remotely qualified to come up that's not remotely qualified to come up that's not remotely qualified to come up with something like this. So, I was with something like this. So, I was with something like this. So, I was like, how do I start a business? I had like, how do I start a business? I had like, how do I start a business? I had never crossed my mind before. I never crossed my mind before. I never crossed my mind before. I literally thought starting a business literally thought starting a business literally thought starting a business was like in the office when Michael was like in the office when Michael was like in the office when Michael Scott gives this lecture and he's like, Scott gives this lecture and he's like, Scott gives this lecture and he's like, "First, you need a building." So, I'm "First, you need a building." So, I'm "First, you need a building." So, I'm thinking, "This is this huge undertaking thinking, "This is this huge undertaking thinking, "This is this huge undertaking I'm about to do." So, I go to the I'm about to do." So, I go to the I'm about to do." So, I go to the bookstore to find a book to help me get bookstore to find a book to help me get bookstore to find a book to help me get started. And I basically saw the 4-hour started. And I basically saw the 4-hour started. And I basically saw the 4-hour work week, grabbed it, and it just sort work week, grabbed it, and it just sort work week, grabbed it, and it just sort of spoke to me. of spoke to me. of spoke to me. >> What happened after that? >> What happened after that? >> What happened after that? >> I blew my mind. I read the book. I'm >> I blew my mind. I read the book. I'm >> I blew my mind. I read the book. I'm like, "What? I could start a business?" like, "What? I could start a business?" like, "What? I could start a business?" It's like it was just a crazy It's like it was just a crazy It's like it was just a crazy mindblowing concept that me, someone who mindblowing concept that me, someone who mindblowing concept that me, someone who has no experience, was totally broke, has no experience, was totally broke, has no experience, was totally broke, could start something. Not necessarily could start something. Not necessarily could start something. Not necessarily be a smash hit, but you could start be a smash hit, but you could start be a smash hit, but you could start something. So, basically, I just something. So, basically, I just something. So, basically, I just followed the book exactly as it was followed the book exactly as it was followed the book exactly as it was written. I mean, I was like, I literally written. I mean, I was like, I literally written. I mean, I was like, I literally had notes in the margins. You had those had notes in the margins. You had those had notes in the margins. You had those little Q&As's at the end or little steps little Q&As's at the end or little steps little Q&As's at the end or little steps at the end. I would make sure I wouldn't at the end. I would make sure I wouldn't at the end. I would make sure I wouldn't go past that page until I did go past that page until I did go past that page until I did everything. my dream reader. everything. my dream reader. everything. my dream reader. >> I was like, I'm not going to go to the >> I was like, I'm not going to go to the >> I was like, I'm not going to go to the next page until I'm good and ready. So, next page until I'm good and ready. So, next page until I'm good and ready. So, basically, I followed the plan and then basically, I followed the plan and then basically, I followed the plan and then created an ebook about nutrition. How to created an ebook about nutrition. How to created an ebook about nutrition. How to help your back pain with nutrition. We help your back pain with nutrition. We help your back pain with nutrition. We have so much to cover. I I know I'm have so much to cover. I I know I'm have so much to cover. I I know I'm cheating a little bit, but I I think cheating a little bit, but I I think cheating a little bit, but I I think it's fair to say that your first attempt it's fair to say that your first attempt it's fair to say that your first attempt did not turn into the mega hit that you did not turn into the mega hit that you did not turn into the mega hit that you might have hoped. might have hoped. might have hoped. No, No, No, >> turns out it's hard to get traffic, >> turns out it's hard to get traffic, >> turns out it's hard to get traffic, right? Or it can be hard to get traffic. right? Or it can be hard to get traffic. right? Or it can be hard to get traffic. And if you don't have a budget for paid And if you don't have a budget for paid And if you don't have a budget for paid ads, well, I guess necessity is the ads, well, I guess necessity is the ads, well, I guess necessity is the mother of invention or at least mother of invention or at least mother of invention or at least learning. learning. learning. And just I want to add a sidebar here, And just I want to add a sidebar here, And just I want to add a sidebar here, which is this is so [ __ ] common. It which is this is so [ __ ] common. It which is this is so [ __ ] common. It is incredibly common, right? That you is incredibly common, right? That you is incredibly common, right? That you basically have your sort of first love basically have your sort of first love basically have your sort of first love relationship seldom works out, right? relationship seldom works out, right? relationship seldom works out, right? But you learn a lot and that leads to But you learn a lot and that leads to But you learn a lot and that leads to something else. But tell us about something else. But tell us about something else. But tell us about >> kind of what you learned and how you >> kind of what you learned and how you >> kind of what you learned and how you adapted adapted adapted >> to that first experience. >> to that first experience. >> to that first experience. >> I spent all this time on creating a >> I spent all this time on creating a >> I spent all this time on creating a product that I thought was helpful. I product that I thought was helpful. I product that I thought was helpful. I thought was good and then it was like thought was good and then it was like thought was good and then it was like now what? You know, how do you get now what? You know, how do you get now what? You know, how do you get people to actually see this thing? Mhm. people to actually see this thing? Mhm. people to actually see this thing? Mhm. >> And like you said to him, there's paid >> And like you said to him, there's paid >> And like you said to him, there's paid ads, which wasn't really something that ads, which wasn't really something that ads, which wasn't really something that I could do considering I was broke in my I could do considering I was broke in my I could do considering I was broke in my dad's basement having Dinty Moore beef dad's basement having Dinty Moore beef dad's basement having Dinty Moore beef stew for dinner every night, or stew for dinner every night, or stew for dinner every night, or so-called free traffic, which I was so-called free traffic, which I was so-called free traffic, which I was like, "What free traffic? How do how like, "What free traffic? How do how like, "What free traffic? How do how does that work?" So, of course, I like does that work?" So, of course, I like does that work?" So, of course, I like went all in on that and eventually sort went all in on that and eventually sort went all in on that and eventually sort of stumbled on this thing called search of stumbled on this thing called search of stumbled on this thing called search engine optimization, which was like you engine optimization, which was like you engine optimization, which was like you can rank in Google and people who are can rank in Google and people who are can rank in Google and people who are searching for what you sell, you can get searching for what you sell, you can get searching for what you sell, you can get in front of them. And I was like, "Oh, I in front of them. And I was like, "Oh, I in front of them. And I was like, "Oh, I use Google." And I never really like use Google." And I never really like use Google." And I never really like understood that there was this whole understood that there was this whole understood that there was this whole world behind the scenes like figuring world behind the scenes like figuring world behind the scenes like figuring out how it works, trying to game the out how it works, trying to game the out how it works, trying to game the algorithm and stuff. And that sent me algorithm and stuff. And that sent me algorithm and stuff. And that sent me down the path of learning this thing down the path of learning this thing down the path of learning this thing called SEO. called SEO. called SEO. >> Also, I would say just to paint a >> Also, I would say just to paint a >> Also, I would say just to paint a picture for folks cuz I remember looking picture for folks cuz I remember looking picture for folks cuz I remember looking at this when I started my first, let's at this when I started my first, let's at this when I started my first, let's call it real business. Also, out of call it real business. Also, out of call it real business. Also, out of necessity when everybody at my the necessity when everybody at my the necessity when everybody at my the startup I joined got fired in 20201. Not startup I joined got fired in 20201. Not startup I joined got fired in 20201. Not a great time for most.com companies. a great time for most.com companies. a great time for most.com companies. So, I was working off of my soon to So, I was working off of my soon to So, I was working off of my soon to expire Cobra Healthcare in California expire Cobra Healthcare in California expire Cobra Healthcare in California and eating also microwave dinners or I and eating also microwave dinners or I and eating also microwave dinners or I remember there I had a couple of remember there I had a couple of remember there I had a couple of favorites at Jack in the Box which was favorites at Jack in the Box which was favorites at Jack in the Box which was in the parking lot of a Safeway. So, in the parking lot of a Safeway. So, in the parking lot of a Safeway. So, that was my nutritional intake. Very that was my nutritional intake. Very that was my nutritional intake. Very similar it sounds like, right? similar it sounds like, right? similar it sounds like, right? >> But slowly figuring out the mechanics >> But slowly figuring out the mechanics >> But slowly figuring out the mechanics behind these things that we use every behind these things that we use every behind these things that we use every day, right? and you took it certainly a day, right? and you took it certainly a day, right? and you took it certainly a lot further than I ever did. It's the lot further than I ever did. It's the lot further than I ever did. It's the wild west. I mean, SEO can be, wild west. I mean, SEO can be, wild west. I mean, SEO can be, especially those days, kind of the wild especially those days, kind of the wild especially those days, kind of the wild west. So, you built up west. So, you built up west. So, you built up a huge kind of portfolio of a huge kind of portfolio of a huge kind of portfolio of domains. It seems like something like domains. It seems like something like domains. It seems like something like close to 200 or over 200. What was what close to 200 or over 200. What was what close to 200 or over 200. What was what was the game plan like when you started was the game plan like when you started was the game plan like when you started getting into SEO and then flashing getting into SEO and then flashing getting into SEO and then flashing forward? forward? forward? What was the sort of plan in terms of What was the sort of plan in terms of What was the sort of plan in terms of revenue generation? revenue generation? revenue generation? >> The idea was you'd have these onepage >> The idea was you'd have these onepage >> The idea was you'd have these onepage websites rank and then you'd have websites rank and then you'd have websites rank and then you'd have AdSense display ads on each of those. AdSense display ads on each of those. AdSense display ads on each of those. And back then it was sort of a loophole And back then it was sort of a loophole And back then it was sort of a loophole that if you had a domain that matched that if you had a domain that matched that if you had a domain that matched the keyword exactly, then it was a the keyword exactly, then it was a the keyword exactly, then it was a massive advantage in the search results. massive advantage in the search results. massive advantage in the search results. So I would have likeshampoo.org So I would have likeshampoo.org So I would have likeshampoo.org And I would just write like a thousand And I would just write like a thousand And I would just write like a thousand words about why L'Oreal shampoo is words about why L'Oreal shampoo is words about why L'Oreal shampoo is great, which I obviously don't really great, which I obviously don't really great, which I obviously don't really know a lot about. For those who can't know a lot about. For those who can't know a lot about. For those who can't see the video, we are both completely see the video, we are both completely see the video, we are both completely bald. Yeah. bald. Yeah. bald. Yeah. And yeah, then putting AdSense ads on And yeah, then putting AdSense ads on And yeah, then putting AdSense ads on the pages times 200. And the idea is the pages times 200. And the idea is the pages times 200. And the idea is that you scale up enough and you know, that you scale up enough and you know, that you scale up enough and you know, next thing a few steps later, you got a next thing a few steps later, you got a next thing a few steps later, you got a private island or something. private island or something. private island or something. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That was the plan. Rough rough island, >> That was the plan. Rough rough island, >> That was the plan. Rough rough island, >> right? ABC dot dot dot and then private >> right? ABC dot dot dot and then private >> right? ABC dot dot dot and then private island. island. island. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, let's backst step for a second >> So, let's backst step for a second >> So, let's backst step for a second because we can talk about the business because we can talk about the business because we can talk about the business and the business experiments and and the business experiments and and the business experiments and adventures which we will and adventures which we will and adventures which we will and misadventures aka panda death which misadventures aka panda death which misadventures aka panda death which we'll probably get to. But if we're we'll probably get to. But if we're we'll probably get to. But if we're looking back to your reading of the looking back to your reading of the looking back to your reading of the book, right, there are a couple of book, right, there are a couple of book, right, there are a couple of different directions as a chooser and different directions as a chooser and different directions as a chooser and adventure adventure adventure map that you can take. And part of that map that you can take. And part of that map that you can take. And part of that often times is figuring out your target often times is figuring out your target often times is figuring out your target monthly income, doing exercises like monthly income, doing exercises like monthly income, doing exercises like dreamlining, which people can find for dreamlining, which people can find for dreamlining, which people can find for free to figure out exactly what it is free to figure out exactly what it is free to figure out exactly what it is that you are building as a lifestyle and that you are building as a lifestyle and that you are building as a lifestyle and the things you want to do, etc. and you the things you want to do, etc. and you the things you want to do, etc. and you come up with this very precise, not come up with this very precise, not come up with this very precise, not necessarily accurate, but it's a necessarily accurate, but it's a necessarily accurate, but it's a starting point number, right? Where were starting point number, right? Where were starting point number, right? Where were you when you're going through all of you when you're going through all of you when you're going through all of this? Because you can build a business this? Because you can build a business this? Because you can build a business for the sake of building a business and for the sake of building a business and for the sake of building a business and generating all this cash, but then the generating all this cash, but then the generating all this cash, but then the question is, what do you do with that, question is, what do you do with that, question is, what do you do with that, right? How does it inform your life? right? How does it inform your life? right? How does it inform your life? Were you thinking about that stuff at Were you thinking about that stuff at Were you thinking about that stuff at the time or was it just get out of the the time or was it just get out of the the time or was it just get out of the basement, need something besides basement, need something besides basement, need something besides have a proper meal? Yeah, exactly. Have have a proper meal? Yeah, exactly. Have have a proper meal? Yeah, exactly. Have a meal that's not out of a can. So I a meal that's not out of a can. So I a meal that's not out of a can. So I just wrote that in the whole just wrote that in the whole just wrote that in the whole streamlining section. That was basically streamlining section. That was basically streamlining section. That was basically what I wrote. But it morphed a little what I wrote. But it morphed a little what I wrote. But it morphed a little bit. At first it was that and then bit. At first it was that and then bit. At first it was that and then building the 200 websites. At some point building the 200 websites. At some point building the 200 websites. At some point I was in Asia backpacking and then my I was in Asia backpacking and then my I was in Asia backpacking and then my whole world changed to 3k a month. I was whole world changed to 3k a month. I was whole world changed to 3k a month. I was like if you can get 3k a month in like if you can get 3k a month in like if you can get 3k a month in Thailand, you can live like a king. So Thailand, you can live like a king. So Thailand, you can live like a king. So my whole goal just became to get 3k a my whole goal just became to get 3k a my whole goal just became to get 3k a month passive income. That was like my month passive income. That was like my month passive income. That was like my entire focus. So it sort of shifted once entire focus. So it sort of shifted once entire focus. So it sort of shifted once I had sort of a lifestyle that I tried I had sort of a lifestyle that I tried I had sort of a lifestyle that I tried and liked. I was like I could live like and liked. I was like I could live like and liked. I was like I could live like a backpacker. I can do this. So then it a backpacker. I can do this. So then it a backpacker. I can do this. So then it just became 3K a month for a long time. just became 3K a month for a long time. just became 3K a month for a long time. >> Did you hit the 3K a month >> Did you hit the 3K a month >> Did you hit the 3K a month before before before the the the Google slap, which may be one and the Google slap, which may be one and the Google slap, which may be one and the same as the the Panda update. I'm not same as the the Panda update. I'm not same as the the Panda update. I'm not sure. May maybe those are two separate sure. May maybe those are two separate sure. May maybe those are two separate things entirely. But where were you things entirely. But where were you things entirely. But where were you before things got pretty strongly before things got pretty strongly before things got pretty strongly corrected? corrected? corrected? >> I was maybe at 3K a month around there >> I was maybe at 3K a month around there >> I was maybe at 3K a month around there for like a couple months. Yeah. had a for like a couple months. Yeah. had a for like a couple months. Yeah. had a good ride and then it kind of got good ride and then it kind of got good ride and then it kind of got slapped. Didn't last long. slapped. Didn't last long. slapped. Didn't last long. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The first was a Panda update as you >> The first was a Panda update as you >> The first was a Panda update as you mentioned which was a very content mentioned which was a very content mentioned which was a very content focused update focused update focused update >> by Google. >> by Google. >> by Google. >> By Google. It was an update that >> By Google. It was an update that >> By Google. It was an update that basically was if your content is thin or basically was if your content is thin or basically was if your content is thin or repetitive or not helpful, we're going repetitive or not helpful, we're going repetitive or not helpful, we're going to wipe you out. And it was like a one to wipe you out. And it was like a one to wipe you out. And it was like a one day they push a button and you know day they push a button and you know day they push a button and you know thousands of websites get completely thousands of websites get completely thousands of websites get completely obliterated including mine. obliterated including mine. obliterated including mine. >> That's a rough Where were you when this >> That's a rough Where were you when this >> That's a rough Where were you when this happened? Do you remember when you got happened? Do you remember when you got happened? Do you remember when you got the news? I got slapped twice. The first the news? I got slapped twice. The first the news? I got slapped twice. The first time didn't scare me straight enough, so time didn't scare me straight enough, so time didn't scare me straight enough, so I went back to the I was like, "Oh, I'll I went back to the I was like, "Oh, I'll I went back to the I was like, "Oh, I'll just do a different type of black hat just do a different type of black hat just do a different type of black hat SEO and I'll get away with it." It SEO and I'll get away with it." It SEO and I'll get away with it." It didn't work. So, that one I think I was didn't work. So, that one I think I was didn't work. So, that one I think I was in Thailand when it happened. in Thailand when it happened. in Thailand when it happened. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Let's then go to You get scared straight >> Let's then go to You get scared straight >> Let's then go to You get scared straight as you put it and you build your first, as you put it and you build your first, as you put it and you build your first, as you as I think you've put it, real as you as I think you've put it, real as you as I think you've put it, real site, right, which isn't la'.org, site, right, which isn't la'.org, site, right, which isn't la'.org, it's something else. when you decided to it's something else. when you decided to it's something else. when you decided to hop to the white hat side of things, hop to the white hat side of things, hop to the white hat side of things, what did you end up doing and why? what did you end up doing and why? what did you end up doing and why? >> So, there was that first update and then >> So, there was that first update and then >> So, there was that first update and then a second update where I was in Spain in a second update where I was in Spain in a second update where I was in Spain in Granada and I went to my hostel, I Granada and I went to my hostel, I Granada and I went to my hostel, I checked the laptop and it was like checked the laptop and it was like checked the laptop and it was like again, it was like a repeat of the again, it was like a repeat of the again, it was like a repeat of the Thailand experience. Everything dropped. Thailand experience. Everything dropped. Thailand experience. Everything dropped. This was a different set of websites This was a different set of websites This was a different set of websites that got knocked out and I was like, you that got knocked out and I was like, you that got knocked out and I was like, you know what? This is crazy. Why am I doing know what? This is crazy. Why am I doing know what? This is crazy. Why am I doing this? This is an insane way to live. So this? This is an insane way to live. So this? This is an insane way to live. So then I was like, I'm going to build this then I was like, I'm going to build this then I was like, I'm going to build this one real website and and I was kind of one real website and and I was kind of one real website and and I was kind of inspired because there were these forums inspired because there were these forums inspired because there were these forums at the time with these marketing people at the time with these marketing people at the time with these marketing people and they're basically like spam, spam, and they're basically like spam, spam, and they're basically like spam, spam, spam. And there was always a there were spam. And there was always a there were spam. And there was always a there were a couple voices in there of people who a couple voices in there of people who a couple voices in there of people who were like, "Guys, you were, you know, were like, "Guys, you were, you know, were like, "Guys, you were, you know, build a real business. What are you guys build a real business. What are you guys build a real business. What are you guys doing? Like build something real that's doing? Like build something real that's doing? Like build something real that's durable that's not 100% rellyant on durable that's not 100% rellyant on durable that's not 100% rellyant on Google." And I was kind of ignored those Google." And I was kind of ignored those Google." And I was kind of ignored those people. And then once I got hit that people. And then once I got hit that people. And then once I got hit that second time, I was like, "Okay, it's second time, I was like, "Okay, it's second time, I was like, "Okay, it's time to build something real." So I time to build something real." So I time to build something real." So I basically built a sort of real site in basically built a sort of real site in basically built a sort of real site in the personal finance space. Wrote real the personal finance space. Wrote real the personal finance space. Wrote real blog content. Didn't do any shady spammy blog content. Didn't do any shady spammy blog content. Didn't do any shady spammy stuff and tried to keep it on the up and stuff and tried to keep it on the up and stuff and tried to keep it on the up and up. So what is the bridge or what up. So what is the bridge or what up. So what is the bridge or what happens between that and then happens between that and then happens between that and then building back linko? Like how do you end building back linko? Like how do you end building back linko? Like how do you end up up up segueing? I mean I guess this could be segueing? I mean I guess this could be segueing? I mean I guess this could be like a very fast montage in the sort of like a very fast montage in the sort of like a very fast montage in the sort of fictionalized movie of your life, right? fictionalized movie of your life, right? fictionalized movie of your life, right? But what happened right to go from there But what happened right to go from there But what happened right to go from there to Back Linko which ultimately you ended to Back Linko which ultimately you ended to Back Linko which ultimately you ended up up up getting acquired getting acquired getting acquired what transpired between those two. So what transpired between those two. So what transpired between those two. So once this site started to get a little once this site started to get a little once this site started to get a little bit of traction, I was like, "Wow, this bit of traction, I was like, "Wow, this bit of traction, I was like, "Wow, this is a whole world I didn't know about. is a whole world I didn't know about. is a whole world I didn't know about. Real marketing why SEO like and it was Real marketing why SEO like and it was Real marketing why SEO like and it was fun. It was working and it was more fun. It was working and it was more fun. It was working and it was more enjoyable because I didn't have to look enjoyable because I didn't have to look enjoyable because I didn't have to look over my shoulder that I was going to get over my shoulder that I was going to get over my shoulder that I was going to get hit with an update next week." And it hit with an update next week." And it hit with an update next week." And it was cool because I'm I'm reaching out to was cool because I'm I'm reaching out to was cool because I'm I'm reaching out to other websites and like, "Oh, this is other websites and like, "Oh, this is other websites and like, "Oh, this is really helpful." And they're linking to really helpful." And they're linking to really helpful." And they're linking to me. I'm not paying for links. They're me. I'm not paying for links. They're me. I'm not paying for links. They're just like naturally doing it. And I'm just like naturally doing it. And I'm just like naturally doing it. And I'm like, "How do I learn more about this?" like, "How do I learn more about this?" like, "How do I learn more about this?" Like this whole world opened up. I'm Like this whole world opened up. I'm Like this whole world opened up. I'm like, "How do I get better at this?" And like, "How do I get better at this?" And like, "How do I get better at this?" And all the advice that I read on all these all the advice that I read on all these all the advice that I read on all these white hat SEO blogs were basically vague white hat SEO blogs were basically vague white hat SEO blogs were basically vague advice. Create great content. Build advice. Create great content. Build advice. Create great content. Build relationships with other people. You relationships with other people. You relationships with other people. You know, market your site, know, market your site, know, market your site, >> lead with integrity. You're like, "Okay, >> lead with integrity. You're like, "Okay, >> lead with integrity. You're like, "Okay, what's my next step?" Very unclear. what's my next step?" Very unclear. what's my next step?" Very unclear. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> It was as vague as you can imagine. >> It was as vague as you can imagine. >> It was as vague as you can imagine. >> So then back linko is a case of sort of >> So then back linko is a case of sort of >> So then back linko is a case of sort of creating the thing that you couldn't creating the thing that you couldn't creating the thing that you couldn't find. find. find. >> Exactly. One thing that I saw here in >> Exactly. One thing that I saw here in >> Exactly. One thing that I saw here in the prep notes which I was like, "Oh, the prep notes which I was like, "Oh, the prep notes which I was like, "Oh, that's so smart and I wanted to that's so smart and I wanted to that's so smart and I wanted to highlight it is and there there are a number of things and there there are a number of things obviously that you ended up doing really obviously that you ended up doing really obviously that you ended up doing really well that that seem to have set the well that that seem to have set the well that that seem to have set the stage for a lot of things that came. One stage for a lot of things that came. One stage for a lot of things that came. One of them was digging through Google of them was digging through Google of them was digging through Google patents and engineer statements." And patents and engineer statements." And patents and engineer statements." And I'll come back and sort of expand on why I'll come back and sort of expand on why I'll come back and sort of expand on why this is smart, but it'll probably become this is smart, but it'll probably become this is smart, but it'll probably become very obvious once you explain why you very obvious once you explain why you very obvious once you explain why you did it. Like why were you digging did it. Like why were you digging did it. Like why were you digging through Google patents and and then through Google patents and and then through Google patents and and then engineer statements? Are those part of engineer statements? Are those part of engineer statements? Are those part of the patents or those something separate? the patents or those something separate? the patents or those something separate? >> Separate. >> Separate. >> Separate. >> Okay. Could you explain what you were >> Okay. Could you explain what you were >> Okay. Could you explain what you were doing? When I launched back linko, I was doing? When I launched back linko, I was doing? When I launched back linko, I was like, there must be other people like me like, there must be other people like me like, there must be other people like me who are getting into this whole world who are getting into this whole world who are getting into this whole world ofio. They want to learn more about it ofio. They want to learn more about it ofio. They want to learn more about it and they're disappointed about what's and they're disappointed about what's and they're disappointed about what's out there. And it turned out there was. out there. And it turned out there was. out there. And it turned out there was. I just didn't know how to reach them at I just didn't know how to reach them at I just didn't know how to reach them at first. So I basically followed the same first. So I basically followed the same first. So I basically followed the same advice that I read for starting a blog, advice that I read for starting a blog, advice that I read for starting a blog, which was, you know, you need to publish which was, you know, you need to publish which was, you know, you need to publish every week or every other day. And every week or every other day. And every week or every other day. And that's how you build an audience. You that's how you build an audience. You that's how you build an audience. You just publish and pray that people come. just publish and pray that people come. just publish and pray that people come. So that's what I did. So that's what I did. So that's what I did. >> People still give that advice. Publish >> People still give that advice. Publish >> People still give that advice. Publish and pray. Yeah. Exactly. and pray. Yeah. Exactly. and pray. Yeah. Exactly. >> So yeah, I did that and bang my head >> So yeah, I did that and bang my head >> So yeah, I did that and bang my head against the wall and I was like, you against the wall and I was like, you against the wall and I was like, you know what? I have an idea. I came up know what? I have an idea. I came up know what? I have an idea. I came up with a a actually creative idea for a with a a actually creative idea for a with a a actually creative idea for a post that would be really special post that would be really special post that would be really special instead of just the stuff I was putting instead of just the stuff I was putting instead of just the stuff I was putting out every week, which was good. It was out every week, which was good. It was out every week, which was good. It was definitely actually decent to to give definitely actually decent to to give definitely actually decent to to give myself some credit, but it wasn't myself some credit, but it wasn't myself some credit, but it wasn't anything that's going to grab you by the anything that's going to grab you by the anything that's going to grab you by the shirt and be like, I need to read this. shirt and be like, I need to read this. shirt and be like, I need to read this. It was just slightly above average than It was just slightly above average than It was just slightly above average than what was out there. I was really going what was out there. I was really going what was out there. I was really going on that consistency play like if I do on that consistency play like if I do on that consistency play like if I do this consistently over time there'll be this consistently over time there'll be this consistently over time there'll be like a secret society that will just like a secret society that will just like a secret society that will just send me traffic as a reward for being so send me traffic as a reward for being so send me traffic as a reward for being so consistent. consistent. consistent. I didn't really have the whole thing I didn't really have the whole thing I didn't really have the whole thing planned out to be honest. I just thought planned out to be honest. I just thought planned out to be honest. I just thought I just knew consistency equal traffic at I just knew consistency equal traffic at I just knew consistency equal traffic at some point and it honestly didn't for some point and it honestly didn't for some point and it honestly didn't for me. me. me. >> So, I had this idea for a post which was >> So, I had this idea for a post which was >> So, I had this idea for a post which was >> Google recently had said that there's >> Google recently had said that there's >> Google recently had said that there's 200 ranking factors in the algorithm. 200 ranking factors in the algorithm. 200 ranking factors in the algorithm. >> So, I was like, let's just try to find >> So, I was like, let's just try to find >> So, I was like, let's just try to find them. Obviously, a lot of it's going to them. Obviously, a lot of it's going to them. Obviously, a lot of it's going to be conjecture and guessing and be conjecture and guessing and be conjecture and guessing and speculation, but let's just do a list of speculation, but let's just do a list of speculation, but let's just do a list of 200 instead of the list of 10 or 20 that 200 instead of the list of 10 or 20 that 200 instead of the list of 10 or 20 that I'd seen out there. And then I got to I'd seen out there. And then I got to I'd seen out there. And then I got to like 55 and I'm like, man, you have to like 55 and I'm like, man, you have to like 55 and I'm like, man, you have to really dig to find some of these. And really dig to find some of these. And really dig to find some of these. And that's when I went through the Google that's when I went through the Google that's when I went through the Google patents. And also people would interview patents. And also people would interview patents. And also people would interview Google engineers Google engineers Google engineers >> or they would give statements. They'd be >> or they would give statements. They'd be >> or they would give statements. They'd be at a conference and they would give a at a conference and they would give a at a conference and they would give a talk and you know one of the slides talk and you know one of the slides talk and you know one of the slides would mention a ranking factor that would mention a ranking factor that would mention a ranking factor that they're considering. So it took a lot of they're considering. So it took a lot of they're considering. So it took a lot of digging. It took like 20 to 25 hours to digging. It took like 20 to 25 hours to digging. It took like 20 to 25 hours to complete this single post. And that's complete this single post. And that's complete this single post. And that's really why I was digging into all this really why I was digging into all this really why I was digging into all this stuff. I just want to add an addendum to stuff. I just want to add an addendum to stuff. I just want to add an addendum to that which is that which is that which is people who have not heard of this people who have not heard of this people who have not heard of this approach. For some folks they'll be approach. For some folks they'll be approach. For some folks they'll be like, "Oh, I I've or someone else has like, "Oh, I I've or someone else has like, "Oh, I I've or someone else has done that." But it is incredible what done that." But it is incredible what done that." But it is incredible what you can learn through reviewing patents you can learn through reviewing patents you can learn through reviewing patents and looking at very niche events, and looking at very niche events, and looking at very niche events, industry events for videos and industry events for videos and industry events for videos and transcripts of presentations. Right? transcripts of presentations. Right? transcripts of presentations. Right? >> This was incredibly valuable when I was >> This was incredibly valuable when I was >> This was incredibly valuable when I was getting started as well, mostly looking getting started as well, mostly looking getting started as well, mostly looking at at kind of closed door or very small at at kind of closed door or very small at at kind of closed door or very small event presentations and things like event presentations and things like event presentations and things like that. Mhm. that. Mhm. that. Mhm. >> All right. So, that was sort of a >> All right. So, that was sort of a >> All right. So, that was sort of a massive post that you really invested massive post that you really invested massive post that you really invested in. 25 hours. It's not trivial, right? I in. 25 hours. It's not trivial, right? I in. 25 hours. It's not trivial, right? I mean, that's that's a lot more mean, that's that's a lot more mean, that's that's a lot more presumably than you're putting into the presumably than you're putting into the presumably than you're putting into the kind of publish and prey consistent kind of publish and prey consistent kind of publish and prey consistent approach to just sliding a plate with approach to just sliding a plate with approach to just sliding a plate with like content salad out the door and like content salad out the door and like content salad out the door and hoping that, you know, a leprechaun is hoping that, you know, a leprechaun is hoping that, you know, a leprechaun is going to show up and trade for a pot of going to show up and trade for a pot of going to show up and trade for a pot of gold, right? gold, right? gold, right? >> So, what was the response to that post? >> So, what was the response to that post? >> So, what was the response to that post? massive traffic and controversy. Kind of massive traffic and controversy. Kind of massive traffic and controversy. Kind of everything you want in a piece of everything you want in a piece of everything you want in a piece of content to be honest. content to be honest. content to be honest. >> I mean, you had the traffic, you had the >> I mean, you had the traffic, you had the >> I mean, you had the traffic, you had the wow factor, and then you had the wow factor, and then you had the wow factor, and then you had the controversy, which is like, those aren't controversy, which is like, those aren't controversy, which is like, those aren't Google's 200 ranking factors. You know, Google's 200 ranking factors. You know, Google's 200 ranking factors. You know, no one knows those. no one knows those. no one knows those. >> And then people saying, well, this is at >> And then people saying, well, this is at >> And then people saying, well, this is at least trying to come up with something, least trying to come up with something, least trying to come up with something, and then people saying, well, it and then people saying, well, it and then people saying, well, it shouldn't do it. So, there's like shouldn't do it. So, there's like shouldn't do it. So, there's like perfect little debate around it that was perfect little debate around it that was perfect little debate around it that was pretty lightweight. You know, it's not pretty lightweight. You know, it's not pretty lightweight. You know, it's not anything super controversial, but just anything super controversial, but just anything super controversial, but just enough to get people's attention. So enough to get people's attention. So enough to get people's attention. So yeah, it brought in I mean I would say I yeah, it brought in I mean I would say I yeah, it brought in I mean I would say I was probably getting like 150 visitors a was probably getting like 150 visitors a was probably getting like 150 visitors a month. That probably brought in a couple month. That probably brought in a couple month. That probably brought in a couple thousand when I first put it out. It's thousand when I first put it out. It's thousand when I first put it out. It's brought in millions since then. brought in millions since then. brought in millions since then. >> What did you then >> What did you then >> What did you then follow that up with in terms of lessons follow that up with in terms of lessons follow that up with in terms of lessons learned learned learned coming up with new rules for yourself in coming up with new rules for yourself in coming up with new rules for yourself in terms of how you were going to approach terms of how you were going to approach terms of how you were going to approach the business? the business? the business? How did that inform things going How did that inform things going How did that inform things going forward? Once once you saw that forward? Once once you saw that forward? Once once you saw that response, response, response, >> I just threw out the whole playbook I >> I just threw out the whole playbook I >> I just threw out the whole playbook I was doing. was doing. was doing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like I was using this consistency thing. >> Like I was using this consistency thing. >> Like I was using this consistency thing. I would even have on Fridays I would I would even have on Fridays I would I would even have on Fridays I would have like a Q&A. I would just put five have like a Q&A. I would just put five have like a Q&A. I would just put five questions and answer them. And of course questions and answer them. And of course questions and answer them. And of course I wasn't getting any questions. So I I wasn't getting any questions. So I I wasn't getting any questions. So I just completely made them up and then just completely made them up and then just completely made them up and then answer my own questions just to have answer my own questions just to have answer my own questions just to have something to put out there. And I'm something to put out there. And I'm something to put out there. And I'm reading it. I'm like why would anyone reading it. I'm like why would anyone reading it. I'm like why would anyone want to read this? So then I just want to read this? So then I just want to read this? So then I just scrapped the whole thing and was like, scrapped the whole thing and was like, scrapped the whole thing and was like, I'm just going to put out something once I'm just going to put out something once I'm just going to put out something once a month a month a month >> and it's going to be the best thing on >> and it's going to be the best thing on >> and it's going to be the best thing on that topic that's ever been written by that topic that's ever been written by that topic that's ever been written by 10x. And that was sort of how I totally 10x. And that was sort of how I totally 10x. And that was sort of how I totally changed my content focus to quality over changed my content focus to quality over changed my content focus to quality over quantity. You had a fun YouTube video on quantity. You had a fun YouTube video on quantity. You had a fun YouTube video on ultimately the acquisition of Back Linko ultimately the acquisition of Back Linko ultimately the acquisition of Back Linko and and and you got I guess the original email you you got I guess the original email you you got I guess the original email you got was like, "Hey, we'd love to connect got was like, "Hey, we'd love to connect got was like, "Hey, we'd love to connect to like collaborate." And you're like, to like collaborate." And you're like, to like collaborate." And you're like, "Well, that smells like every [ __ ] "Well, that smells like every [ __ ] "Well, that smells like every [ __ ] spam email I've ever received." So, you spam email I've ever received." So, you spam email I've ever received." So, you just ignored it, right? Yep. just ignored it, right? Yep. just ignored it, right? Yep. >> As I remember, and we won't spend a ton >> As I remember, and we won't spend a ton >> As I remember, and we won't spend a ton of time on this, but what is Semrush? of time on this, but what is Semrush? of time on this, but what is Semrush? This is the acquirer ultimately, but for This is the acquirer ultimately, but for This is the acquirer ultimately, but for people who don't know, what is Semrush? people who don't know, what is Semrush? people who don't know, what is Semrush? They're essentially a marketing platform They're essentially a marketing platform They're essentially a marketing platform that help you get better results from that help you get better results from that help you get better results from SEO, pay-per-click, and also now AI SEO, pay-per-click, and also now AI SEO, pay-per-click, and also now AI search. And search. And search. And >> are they private, publicly traded? >> are they private, publicly traded? >> are they private, publicly traded? They're publicly traded, right? Yeah, it They're publicly traded, right? Yeah, it They're publicly traded, right? Yeah, it looks like on the New York Stock looks like on the New York Stock looks like on the New York Stock Exchange. Exchange. Exchange. >> They got acquired by Adobe last year. >> They got acquired by Adobe last year. >> They got acquired by Adobe last year. So, they will be part of Adobe I think So, they will be part of Adobe I think So, they will be part of Adobe I think sometime this year when everything goes sometime this year when everything goes sometime this year when everything goes through. through. through. >> Got it. And they acquired you ultimately >> Got it. And they acquired you ultimately >> Got it. And they acquired you ultimately while they were public, right? while they were public, right? while they were public, right? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> I mean, there's so many good aspects to >> I mean, there's so many good aspects to >> I mean, there's so many good aspects to this, but do you want to do you want to this, but do you want to do you want to this, but do you want to do you want to tell the story about flying to Boston? tell the story about flying to Boston? tell the story about flying to Boston? And I mean eventually this contact I And I mean eventually this contact I And I mean eventually this contact I can't remember his name but since you can't remember his name but since you can't remember his name but since you ignored the first email he wrote and ignored the first email he wrote and ignored the first email he wrote and basically said hey look we might be basically said hey look we might be basically said hey look we might be interested in buying your company like interested in buying your company like interested in buying your company like let me be direct and you're like okay let me be direct and you're like okay let me be direct and you're like okay I'll reply to that one. You told the I'll reply to that one. You told the I'll reply to that one. You told the story of flying to Boston. I think it's story of flying to Boston. I think it's story of flying to Boston. I think it's pretty funny. I also liked in your video pretty funny. I also liked in your video pretty funny. I also liked in your video and you said you know up to that point I and you said you know up to that point I and you said you know up to that point I hadn't sold anything except for maybe a hadn't sold anything except for maybe a hadn't sold anything except for maybe a used car. I think you said something used car. I think you said something used car. I think you said something like that. I was like that's a pretty like that. I was like that's a pretty like that. I was like that's a pretty good line. So the first Boston trip what good line. So the first Boston trip what good line. So the first Boston trip what happens there? Like what's in your mind? happens there? Like what's in your mind? happens there? Like what's in your mind? In my mind, I'm like, we're gonna close In my mind, I'm like, we're gonna close In my mind, I'm like, we're gonna close this thing. Like, let's go go go to this thing. Like, let's go go go to this thing. Like, let's go go go to Boston. It was really a meet and greet Boston. It was really a meet and greet Boston. It was really a meet and greet where the executive team just wanted to where the executive team just wanted to where the executive team just wanted to meet me and chat about, you know, see meet me and chat about, you know, see meet me and chat about, you know, see what I how I could help them, how Bank what I how I could help them, how Bank what I how I could help them, how Bank Linko could fit into their their Linko could fit into their their Linko could fit into their their platform and their business. And so, I platform and their business. And so, I platform and their business. And so, I spend the day with them in the office spend the day with them in the office spend the day with them in the office and then afterwards we all go out to and then afterwards we all go out to and then afterwards we all go out to drinks to celebrate the deal. And I'm drinks to celebrate the deal. And I'm drinks to celebrate the deal. And I'm like [ __ ] myself, right? I'm like, like [ __ ] myself, right? I'm like, like [ __ ] myself, right? I'm like, what? We're celebrating the deal now? what? We're celebrating the deal now? what? We're celebrating the deal now? Like I didn't even see a I never saw a Like I didn't even see a I never saw a Like I didn't even see a I never saw a contract or an agreement or anything. contract or an agreement or anything. contract or an agreement or anything. I'm like, "We're going to sign it like I'm like, "We're going to sign it like I'm like, "We're going to sign it like tonight." So, we go out and we're at tonight." So, we go out and we're at tonight." So, we go out and we're at Legal Seafood in the Provincial Center Legal Seafood in the Provincial Center Legal Seafood in the Provincial Center taking shots. Yeah, this is great, taking shots. Yeah, this is great, taking shots. Yeah, this is great, Brian. This is going to be the best Brian. This is going to be the best Brian. This is going to be the best thing ever. And I'm thinking, where's thing ever. And I'm thinking, where's thing ever. And I'm thinking, where's the contract? When are we going to sign? the contract? When are we going to sign? the contract? When are we going to sign? Like, I really thought right there. Like, I really thought right there. Like, I really thought right there. They're going to Did I miss something? They're going to Did I miss something? They're going to Did I miss something? Did I black out? What happened? Did I black out? What happened? Did I black out? What happened? >> Exactly. I'm like, did I agree? Like, is >> Exactly. I'm like, did I agree? Like, is >> Exactly. I'm like, did I agree? Like, is a verbal agreement enough for a deal a verbal agreement enough for a deal a verbal agreement enough for a deal like this? like this? like this? >> So, yeah, I was way off on that. It took >> So, yeah, I was way off on that. It took >> So, yeah, I was way off on that. It took two more months of due diligence after two more months of due diligence after two more months of due diligence after that meeting for the deal to actually that meeting for the deal to actually that meeting for the deal to actually close. close. close. >> You said two months. >> You said two months. >> You said two months. >> Yeah. Which for people who have never >> Yeah. Which for people who have never >> Yeah. Which for people who have never gone through it, right? gone through it, right? gone through it, right? That can be very challenging if you That can be very challenging if you That can be very challenging if you don't have your ducks in a row, right? don't have your ducks in a row, right? don't have your ducks in a row, right? Which almost nobody does unless they've Which almost nobody does unless they've Which almost nobody does unless they've kind of been through this before or are kind of been through this before or are kind of been through this before or are venturebacked and they have people venturebacked and they have people venturebacked and they have people overseeing all this stuff. Two months is overseeing all this stuff. Two months is overseeing all this stuff. Two months is pretty good, right? Like it's painful pretty good, right? Like it's painful pretty good, right? Like it's painful but like man like due diligence can go but like man like due diligence can go but like man like due diligence can go on forever. on forever. on forever. For people who are starting a company For people who are starting a company For people who are starting a company maybe they never intend to sell it but maybe they never intend to sell it but maybe they never intend to sell it but hey you had not gone into Backlinko hey you had not gone into Backlinko hey you had not gone into Backlinko thinking that you were going to sell it thinking that you were going to sell it thinking that you were going to sell it right but they want to preserve the right but they want to preserve the right but they want to preserve the optionality. I remember coming across optionality. I remember coming across optionality. I remember coming across and I haven't read it in a long time but and I haven't read it in a long time but and I haven't read it in a long time but a book by John Warllo called Built to a book by John Warllo called Built to a book by John Warllo called Built to Sell which talks a bit about this and I Sell which talks a bit about this and I Sell which talks a bit about this and I thought it was actually very good like a thought it was actually very good like a thought it was actually very good like a very I don't want to say basic but very I don't want to say basic but very I don't want to say basic but pretty sort of foundational primer for pretty sort of foundational primer for pretty sort of foundational primer for some of this stuff but what advice would some of this stuff but what advice would some of this stuff but what advice would you give to folks I mean one comes to you give to folks I mean one comes to you give to folks I mean one comes to mind which I have also had to learn the mind which I have also had to learn the mind which I have also had to learn the hard way about independent contractors hard way about independent contractors hard way about independent contractors but what are some of the like but what are some of the like but what are some of the like tenets or sort of commandments of like tenets or sort of commandments of like tenets or sort of commandments of like hey just in case one day you want to hey just in case one day you want to hey just in case one day you want to sell this thing. Here are a couple of sell this thing. Here are a couple of sell this thing. Here are a couple of things that I learned. Anything come to things that I learned. Anything come to things that I learned. Anything come to mind? mind? mind? >> Independent contractors for sure. Maybe >> Independent contractors for sure. Maybe >> Independent contractors for sure. Maybe you can expand on that, Sim, cuz you've you can expand on that, Sim, cuz you've you can expand on that, Sim, cuz you've had experience with that. had experience with that. had experience with that. >> Look, if you ever want to sell >> Look, if you ever want to sell >> Look, if you ever want to sell something, the the acquiring party is something, the the acquiring party is something, the the acquiring party is going going to want to know with some going going to want to know with some going going to want to know with some assurance. And they'll have reps and assurance. And they'll have reps and assurance. And they'll have reps and warranties in the agreement that warranties in the agreement that warranties in the agreement that basically say, "Hey, if you're if you basically say, "Hey, if you're if you basically say, "Hey, if you're if you miss something or you're not telling us miss something or you're not telling us miss something or you're not telling us the truth, like there's going to be a the truth, like there's going to be a the truth, like there's going to be a world of trouble and we'll probably be world of trouble and we'll probably be world of trouble and we'll probably be able to back out of the deal and take able to back out of the deal and take able to back out of the deal and take all the money back." But they want to all the money back." But they want to all the money back." But they want to know that everything they're buying is know that everything they're buying is know that everything they're buying is free and clear. Right? So if you've had, free and clear. Right? So if you've had, free and clear. Right? So if you've had, as I have and as you have in some cases, as I have and as you have in some cases, as I have and as you have in some cases, well, I'll just speak personally, always well, I'll just speak personally, always well, I'll just speak personally, always maintain a very small full-time team, maintain a very small full-time team, maintain a very small full-time team, but have used dozens and probably but have used dozens and probably but have used dozens and probably hundreds of certainly hundreds of hundreds of certainly hundreds of hundreds of certainly hundreds of contractors over the span of decades. contractors over the span of decades. contractors over the span of decades. And if you're building something and And if you're building something and And if you're building something and they want to see they meaning the they want to see they meaning the they want to see they meaning the acquiring company every single contract acquiring company every single contract acquiring company every single contract to make sure that someone isn't going to to make sure that someone isn't going to to make sure that someone isn't going to come out of the woodwork and say hey I come out of the woodwork and say hey I come out of the woodwork and say hey I own a part of that. Hey I contributed own a part of that. Hey I contributed own a part of that. Hey I contributed this and therefore I am entitled to a this and therefore I am entitled to a this and therefore I am entitled to a piece of equity yada yada yada yada piece of equity yada yada yada yada piece of equity yada yada yada yada which if the deal is big enough come out which if the deal is big enough come out which if the deal is big enough come out of the woodwork no matter what. You see of the woodwork no matter what. You see of the woodwork no matter what. You see this with a lot of like tech IPOs and this with a lot of like tech IPOs and this with a lot of like tech IPOs and stuff. As soon as they file the S1 stuff. As soon as they file the S1 stuff. As soon as they file the S1 getting ready to IPO, then some rando getting ready to IPO, then some rando getting ready to IPO, then some rando comes out of the woodwork and says, "I'm comes out of the woodwork and says, "I'm comes out of the woodwork and says, "I'm the seventh co-founder." And you're the seventh co-founder." And you're the seventh co-founder." And you're like, "What?" Like, "No one's ever heard like, "What?" Like, "No one's ever heard like, "What?" Like, "No one's ever heard of this person." And they just want of this person." And they just want of this person." And they just want nuisance money to go away. So that's the nuisance money to go away. So that's the nuisance money to go away. So that's the relatively short and sweet on relatively short and sweet on relatively short and sweet on independent contractors. This is going independent contractors. This is going independent contractors. This is going to be true also with pretty much any to be true also with pretty much any to be true also with pretty much any agreement or contract, right? You just agreement or contract, right? You just agreement or contract, right? You just want to document, document, document. want to document, document, document. want to document, document, document. Make everything formal. no verbal, no Make everything formal. no verbal, no Make everything formal. no verbal, no handshake if you want to preserve the handshake if you want to preserve the handshake if you want to preserve the option to cleanly and hopefully option to cleanly and hopefully option to cleanly and hopefully relatively quickly sell a company later. relatively quickly sell a company later. relatively quickly sell a company later. Anything else that you would add to Anything else that you would add to Anything else that you would add to that, Brian? that, Brian? that, Brian? >> If you don't have your finances in >> If you don't have your finances in >> If you don't have your finances in order, like you don't get P&Ls. order, like you don't get P&Ls. order, like you don't get P&Ls. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that is something they obviously will >> that is something they obviously will >> that is something they obviously will care a lot about. Luckily, I had a good care a lot about. Luckily, I had a good care a lot about. Luckily, I had a good accountant that did that stuff, so that accountant that did that stuff, so that accountant that did that stuff, so that wasn't a big deal. The number one time wasn't a big deal. The number one time wasn't a big deal. The number one time sync for me was the independent sync for me was the independent sync for me was the independent contractors. I mean, I'm like you. I contractors. I mean, I'm like you. I contractors. I mean, I'm like you. I hired so many people that did one like hired so many people that did one like hired so many people that did one like created like a blog post image or created like a blog post image or created like a blog post image or something or like a social media image something or like a social media image something or like a social media image once for like 10 bucks and I had to go once for like 10 bucks and I had to go once for like 10 bucks and I had to go try to find them. try to find them. try to find them. >> Basically have to hire like almost like >> Basically have to hire like almost like >> Basically have to hire like almost like a private investigator to find these a private investigator to find these a private investigator to find these people cuz you don't even barely people cuz you don't even barely people cuz you don't even barely remember them. remember them. remember them. >> Even people that ghosted me. I had >> Even people that ghosted me. I had >> Even people that ghosted me. I had people that I paid like a deposit for people that I paid like a deposit for people that I paid like a deposit for work and they never even replied. They work and they never even replied. They work and they never even replied. They totally they ghosted me and I still had totally they ghosted me and I still had totally they ghosted me and I still had to reach out to those people. Of course, to reach out to those people. Of course, to reach out to those people. Of course, they're not going to reply. But you have they're not going to reply. But you have they're not going to reply. But you have to show that you tried. And then to show that you tried. And then to show that you tried. And then obviously since this experience, every obviously since this experience, every obviously since this experience, every contractor that gets hired signs an contractor that gets hired signs an contractor that gets hired signs an ironclad agreement that says you don't ironclad agreement that says you don't ironclad agreement that says you don't own any of this work. Once you're paid, own any of this work. Once you're paid, own any of this work. Once you're paid, it's a property of blah blah blah. it's a property of blah blah blah. it's a property of blah blah blah. >> And that made things a lot easier the >> And that made things a lot easier the >> And that made things a lot easier the second time. But I I had no idea this second time. But I I had no idea this second time. But I I had no idea this independent contractor thing was so independent contractor thing was so independent contractor thing was so important to the acquirer, but it important to the acquirer, but it important to the acquirer, but it absolutely is. absolutely is. absolutely is. >> Yeah. So, we we won't spend a ton of >> Yeah. So, we we won't spend a ton of >> Yeah. So, we we won't spend a ton of time on sort of what followed, but there time on sort of what followed, but there time on sort of what followed, but there was one funny anecdote about the public was one funny anecdote about the public was one funny anecdote about the public announcement. Could you just explain announcement. Could you just explain announcement. Could you just explain that that that given the time zone differences? I just given the time zone differences? I just given the time zone differences? I just I thought that one was great. I thought that one was great. I thought that one was great. >> Time zone differences. And I like I'm >> Time zone differences. And I like I'm >> Time zone differences. And I like I'm like early to bed kind of person. So, like early to bed kind of person. So, like early to bed kind of person. So, they told me that, hey, Brian, you know, they told me that, hey, Brian, you know, they told me that, hey, Brian, you know, we're going to announce this tomorrow we're going to announce this tomorrow we're going to announce this tomorrow and we're going to announce it at 5:00 and we're going to announce it at 5:00 and we're going to announce it at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. And I'm like, "Oh man, I p.m. Eastern. And I'm like, "Oh man, I p.m. Eastern. And I'm like, "Oh man, I don't know. Can you send it? Is it don't know. Can you send it? Is it don't know. Can you send it? Is it possible to send it earlier? That's like possible to send it earlier? That's like possible to send it earlier? That's like 10 p.m. here. I'm already kind of 10 p.m. here. I'm already kind of 10 p.m. here. I'm already kind of getting ready for bed." Basically say, getting ready for bed." Basically say, getting ready for bed." Basically say, "I'm in my PJs at that point. Is it "I'm in my PJs at that point. Is it "I'm in my PJs at that point. Is it possible to push this earlier?" And they possible to push this earlier?" And they possible to push this earlier?" And they said, "No, because it's a public said, "No, because it's a public said, "No, because it's a public company. Due to SEC rules, we have to company. Due to SEC rules, we have to company. Due to SEC rules, we have to make these announcements after the make these announcements after the make these announcements after the markets close." markets close." markets close." Yeah. I was so embarrassed. I was like, Yeah. I was so embarrassed. I was like, Yeah. I was so embarrassed. I was like, "Oh, yeah, right. I forgot the like the "Oh, yeah, right. I forgot the like the "Oh, yeah, right. I forgot the like the league I'm playing in here." So you sell the company presumably So you sell the company presumably there's some type of there's some type of there's some type of earnout or period of time for which earnout or period of time for which earnout or period of time for which you're required to still work on you're required to still work on you're required to still work on backlinko right who knows what the exact backlinko right who knows what the exact backlinko right who knows what the exact terms are of that but for people who've terms are of that but for people who've terms are of that but for people who've never gone through it right you can have never gone through it right you can have never gone through it right you can have a vesting period you can have an earnout a vesting period you can have an earnout a vesting period you can have an earnout where you get x percentage of the total where you get x percentage of the total where you get x percentage of the total purchase price based on hitting or purchase price based on hitting or purchase price based on hitting or exceeding x y and z metrics or whatever exceeding x y and z metrics or whatever exceeding x y and z metrics or whatever right so there's a period of time like right so there's a period of time like right so there's a period of time like that postacquisition, let's just say that postacquisition, let's just say that postacquisition, let's just say because I know that was very stressful because I know that was very stressful because I know that was very stressful and you started grinding your teeth and and you started grinding your teeth and and you started grinding your teeth and that kind of evaporated as soon as the that kind of evaporated as soon as the that kind of evaporated as soon as the deal was done. Let's just flash forward deal was done. Let's just flash forward deal was done. Let's just flash forward like 2 or 3 months after the like 2 or 3 months after the like 2 or 3 months after the acquisition. What does your what does acquisition. What does your what does acquisition. What does your what does your life look like? Like what does a your life look like? Like what does a your life look like? Like what does a week look like for you if you remember? week look like for you if you remember? week look like for you if you remember? It's honestly not that different because It's honestly not that different because It's honestly not that different because I had another startup that I was already I had another startup that I was already I had another startup that I was already working on. working on. working on. >> So I I was basically running on a >> So I I was basically running on a >> So I I was basically running on a treadmill and then I just hopped onto treadmill and then I just hopped onto treadmill and then I just hopped onto another treadmill that was right next to another treadmill that was right next to another treadmill that was right next to it and just kept going. So there wasn't it and just kept going. So there wasn't it and just kept going. So there wasn't a whole lot of downtime to really a whole lot of downtime to really a whole lot of downtime to really reflect or analyze that one day that the reflect or analyze that one day that the reflect or analyze that one day that the announcement was made, especially the announcement was made, especially the announcement was made, especially the next day because it was late here. So next day because it was late here. So next day because it was late here. So like the next day was really when I was like the next day was really when I was like the next day was really when I was sending messages to people and stuff and sending messages to people and stuff and sending messages to people and stuff and getting congratulations and whatnot. But getting congratulations and whatnot. But getting congratulations and whatnot. But after that day, I was pretty much back after that day, I was pretty much back after that day, I was pretty much back working on the next thing. Like working on the next thing. Like working on the next thing. Like >> didn't reflect too much on it. >> didn't reflect too much on it. >> didn't reflect too much on it. >> So my life was more or less the same one >> So my life was more or less the same one >> So my life was more or less the same one day after. Looking back, are you basically like, Looking back, are you basically like, "Hey, I'm a border collie. I need to "Hey, I'm a border collie. I need to "Hey, I'm a border collie. I need to work or I'm going to go crazy." So, I'm work or I'm going to go crazy." So, I'm work or I'm going to go crazy." So, I'm glad I did that. Do you wish you had glad I did that. Do you wish you had glad I did that. Do you wish you had approached it differently? I kind of approached it differently? I kind of approached it differently? I kind of wish I approached it differently. Yeah. wish I approached it differently. Yeah. wish I approached it differently. Yeah. And looking back, I was wish I took some And looking back, I was wish I took some And looking back, I was wish I took some time off. It's just tricky because you time off. It's just tricky because you time off. It's just tricky because you know how it is when you have a startup. know how it is when you have a startup. know how it is when you have a startup. It's kind of a strange situation. Like I It's kind of a strange situation. Like I It's kind of a strange situation. Like I had a new company that was growing. at had a new company that was growing. at had a new company that was growing. at this old company that I sold and it felt this old company that I sold and it felt this old company that I sold and it felt weird to say to the new team like, "Hey weird to say to the new team like, "Hey weird to say to the new team like, "Hey guys, I need to reflect about how great guys, I need to reflect about how great guys, I need to reflect about how great my life is. I need to chill out. You my life is. I need to chill out. You my life is. I need to chill out. You guys still work though. Like you work guys still work though. Like you work guys still work though. Like you work your asses off. I'm going to I'm going your asses off. I'm going to I'm going your asses off. I'm going to I'm going to chill on the beach for a while." So to chill on the beach for a while." So to chill on the beach for a while." So it felt a little weird. I felt like I it felt a little weird. I felt like I it felt a little weird. I felt like I kind of had to go back into the trenches kind of had to go back into the trenches kind of had to go back into the trenches with them right away. Almost even more with them right away. Almost even more with them right away. Almost even more so to prove like look, I'm not done. so to prove like look, I'm not done. so to prove like look, I'm not done. Like I'm not going to rest on my Like I'm not going to rest on my Like I'm not going to rest on my laurels. We're still in it to win it. laurels. We're still in it to win it. laurels. We're still in it to win it. financially at that point were you financially at that point were you financially at that point were you focused on the new company exploding focused on the new company exploding focused on the new company exploding topics because you wanted to get to that topics because you wanted to get to that topics because you wanted to get to that sort of big pot of gold at the end of sort of big pot of gold at the end of sort of big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow like what was the driver the rainbow like what was the driver the rainbow like what was the driver behind that right I don't know to what behind that right I don't know to what behind that right I don't know to what extent you were sort of financially extent you were sort of financially extent you were sort of financially stable had savings we don't have to get stable had savings we don't have to get stable had savings we don't have to get into all the nitty-gritty if you don't into all the nitty-gritty if you don't into all the nitty-gritty if you don't want to but I'm just curious what was want to but I'm just curious what was want to but I'm just curious what was driving the involvement in the new driving the involvement in the new driving the involvement in the new company for you it wasn't really 100% company for you it wasn't really 100% company for you it wasn't really 100% financial financial financial When I sold back Linko before then I was When I sold back Linko before then I was When I sold back Linko before then I was probably okay for most of my life. Then probably okay for most of my life. Then probably okay for most of my life. Then when I sold back Linko, it was like, when I sold back Linko, it was like, when I sold back Linko, it was like, okay, I'm probably good for forever. And okay, I'm probably good for forever. And okay, I'm probably good for forever. And then I wouldn't have probably started then I wouldn't have probably started then I wouldn't have probably started something else right away if I hadn't something else right away if I hadn't something else right away if I hadn't already. So towards the end of Back already. So towards the end of Back already. So towards the end of Back Linko, when I was involved with it Linko, when I was involved with it Linko, when I was involved with it before I sold, before I sold, before I sold, >> I was honestly getting a little bit >> I was honestly getting a little bit >> I was honestly getting a little bit bored with it. bored with it. bored with it. >> Like I was bored talking about the same >> Like I was bored talking about the same >> Like I was bored talking about the same things, writing about the same things, things, writing about the same things, things, writing about the same things, doing the whole course launch thing. doing the whole course launch thing. doing the whole course launch thing. >> And I kind of wanted something new. and >> And I kind of wanted something new. and >> And I kind of wanted something new. and I saw an opportunity where there were I saw an opportunity where there were I saw an opportunity where there were more trends than ever, but I couldn't more trends than ever, but I couldn't more trends than ever, but I couldn't find a good tool for curating them that find a good tool for curating them that find a good tool for curating them that was like here are all the trends in this was like here are all the trends in this was like here are all the trends in this space right now. There was Google space right now. There was Google space right now. There was Google Trends, which is fantastic if you know Trends, which is fantastic if you know Trends, which is fantastic if you know about a topic and you want to see how about a topic and you want to see how about a topic and you want to see how it's trending, but what about a trend it's trending, but what about a trend it's trending, but what about a trend you've never even heard of? And that's you've never even heard of? And that's you've never even heard of? And that's sort of where I realized the opportunity sort of where I realized the opportunity sort of where I realized the opportunity was. So, it wasn't really purely was. So, it wasn't really purely was. So, it wasn't really purely financial. It was more like this is kind financial. It was more like this is kind financial. It was more like this is kind of exciting and new. I think it's a good of exciting and new. I think it's a good of exciting and new. I think it's a good opportunity as well and it'll give me opportunity as well and it'll give me opportunity as well and it'll give me something to do between these sessions something to do between these sessions something to do between these sessions with back linko which was it was also with back linko which was it was also with back linko which was it was also boring because it was so optimized like boring because it was so optimized like boring because it was so optimized like I work like three hours a week. It was I work like three hours a week. It was I work like three hours a week. It was like four-hour work week honestly at the like four-hour work week honestly at the like four-hour work week honestly at the end like it was getting so much traffic end like it was getting so much traffic end like it was getting so much traffic on autopilot. The launches were really on autopilot. The launches were really on autopilot. The launches were really easy to do. easy to do. easy to do. >> Even courses were easier to create at >> Even courses were easier to create at >> Even courses were easier to create at the end because it just had it all down the end because it just had it all down the end because it just had it all down to a science. Even it was a totally to a science. Even it was a totally to a science. Even it was a totally different topic. I knew exactly how to different topic. I knew exactly how to different topic. I knew exactly how to create a course. So the challenge wasn't create a course. So the challenge wasn't create a course. So the challenge wasn't really there and this was like okay new really there and this was like okay new really there and this was like okay new challenge new space and that's basically challenge new space and that's basically challenge new space and that's basically it wasn't so much financial it was more it wasn't so much financial it was more it wasn't so much financial it was more just to freshen things up and to try just to freshen things up and to try just to freshen things up and to try something new. something new. something new. >> Yeah. And you'd also already committed >> Yeah. And you'd also already committed >> Yeah. And you'd also already committed to other people right with this new to other people right with this new to other people right with this new startup. So it makes a lot of sense when startup. So it makes a lot of sense when startup. So it makes a lot of sense when you had with backlink go so much on you had with backlink go so much on you had with backlink go so much on autopilot autopilot autopilot >> the 3 hours per week right what were you >> the 3 hours per week right what were you >> the 3 hours per week right what were you doing with the rest of that time because doing with the rest of that time because doing with the rest of that time because the most and we don't have to dig into the most and we don't have to dig into the most and we don't have to dig into the the book too much here but if I had the the book too much here but if I had the the book too much here but if I had to point to one chapter that people pay to point to one chapter that people pay to point to one chapter that people pay no attention to because typically no attention to because typically no attention to because typically they're like oh yeah that'd be a nice they're like oh yeah that'd be a nice they're like oh yeah that'd be a nice problem to have and they like forget problem to have and they like forget problem to have and they like forget about it is the filling the void chapter about it is the filling the void chapter about it is the filling the void chapter filling the void chapter 4 work week is filling the void chapter 4 work week is filling the void chapter 4 work week is really important so you don't go into really important so you don't go into really important so you don't go into like psychological freefall like psychological freefall like psychological freefall among other reasons. But what were you among other reasons. But what were you among other reasons. But what were you doing with the rest of your time if Back doing with the rest of your time if Back doing with the rest of your time if Back Linko at one point right when the Linko at one point right when the Linko at one point right when the flywheel was really spinning was only flywheel was really spinning was only flywheel was really spinning was only occupying or requiring 3 hours a week? occupying or requiring 3 hours a week? occupying or requiring 3 hours a week? >> I was bored. Honestly, I wasn't filling >> I was bored. Honestly, I wasn't filling >> I was bored. Honestly, I wasn't filling it well. I wasn't filling the void. I it well. I wasn't filling the void. I it well. I wasn't filling the void. I was basically going to the gym, was basically going to the gym, was basically going to the gym, >> reading books, playing video games, >> reading books, playing video games, >> reading books, playing video games, nothing. And that I think that was part nothing. And that I think that was part nothing. And that I think that was part of this and we this boredom was of this and we this boredom was of this and we this boredom was >> I needed to reread that chapter >> I needed to reread that chapter >> I needed to reread that chapter essentially and fill this with something essentially and fill this with something essentially and fill this with something meaningful meaningful meaningful >> and I think that's why I was seeking >> and I think that's why I was seeking >> and I think that's why I was seeking another startup project. another startup project. another startup project. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Yeah. 100%. >> I need to work. I need to build >> I need to work. I need to build >> I need to work. I need to build something. I'm not building this. I'm something. I'm not building this. I'm something. I'm not building this. I'm just maintaining it. just maintaining it. just maintaining it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So that's really what got me into >> So that's really what got me into >> So that's really what got me into exploring topics. So honestly the exploring topics. So honestly the exploring topics. So honestly the filling the void chapter the whole filling the void chapter the whole filling the void chapter the whole filling the void concept I really only filling the void concept I really only filling the void concept I really only took seriously recently. took seriously recently. took seriously recently. >> Mh. But before then I basically filled >> Mh. But before then I basically filled >> Mh. But before then I basically filled it with sort of nonsense to be honest it with sort of nonsense to be honest it with sort of nonsense to be honest and then started another startup. and then started another startup. and then started another startup. >> What were some of the things you did >> What were some of the things you did >> What were some of the things you did differently with exploding topics after differently with exploding topics after differently with exploding topics after all the experience with back linko? all the experience with back linko? all the experience with back linko? Maybe things that in retrospect you're Maybe things that in retrospect you're Maybe things that in retrospect you're like wow that was a really smart like wow that was a really smart like wow that was a really smart decision and change and maybe somewhere decision and change and maybe somewhere decision and change and maybe somewhere like okay like okay like okay lesson learned right would probably if I lesson learned right would probably if I lesson learned right would probably if I were starting from scratch with were starting from scratch with were starting from scratch with exploring topics I would have done it exploring topics I would have done it exploring topics I would have done it differently. anything come to mind in differently. anything come to mind in differently. anything come to mind in terms of good and quoteunquote bad terms of good and quoteunquote bad terms of good and quoteunquote bad decisions? decisions? decisions? >> We can start with the bad one, which was >> We can start with the bad one, which was >> We can start with the bad one, which was how to monetize this site. I had this how to monetize this site. I had this how to monetize this site. I had this very strange idea that we're going to very strange idea that we're going to very strange idea that we're going to create this awesome free resource that create this awesome free resource that create this awesome free resource that anyone can visit and just see trends anyone can visit and just see trends anyone can visit and just see trends right away. They can filter. They can go right away. They can filter. They can go right away. They can filter. They can go by category. And you think, oh, how you by category. And you think, oh, how you by category. And you think, oh, how you going to monetize that? Logically, you going to monetize that? Logically, you going to monetize that? Logically, you think SAS, an upgraded version of what think SAS, an upgraded version of what think SAS, an upgraded version of what they're seeing for free. And for some they're seeing for free. And for some they're seeing for free. And for some reason, I was like, a paid newsletter. reason, I was like, a paid newsletter. reason, I was like, a paid newsletter. like let's create a paid newsletter. So like let's create a paid newsletter. So like let's create a paid newsletter. So we created this paid newsletter that was we created this paid newsletter that was we created this paid newsletter that was granted helpful in in like objective granted helpful in in like objective granted helpful in in like objective terms but not necessarily for that terms but not necessarily for that terms but not necessarily for that person who wants to see trends in their person who wants to see trends in their person who wants to see trends in their particular niche. So we would send them particular niche. So we would send them particular niche. So we would send them a trend on like some sort of face cream a trend on like some sort of face cream a trend on like some sort of face cream and then on like a car and then a and then on like a car and then a and then on like a car and then a battery and then a tech startup and they battery and then a tech startup and they battery and then a tech startup and they would be like what is this? People were would be like what is this? People were would be like what is this? People were I want just trends about e-commerce. I I want just trends about e-commerce. I I want just trends about e-commerce. I just want trends about this one thing. just want trends about this one thing. just want trends about this one thing. Like why are you sending me all this Like why are you sending me all this Like why are you sending me all this stuff? And then people would also sign stuff? And then people would also sign stuff? And then people would also sign up thinking it's SAS even though we said up thinking it's SAS even though we said up thinking it's SAS even though we said everywhere like paid newsletter, paid everywhere like paid newsletter, paid everywhere like paid newsletter, paid newsletter. And they'd be like, I newsletter. And they'd be like, I newsletter. And they'd be like, I thought this was SAS. I thought this was thought this was SAS. I thought this was thought this was SAS. I thought this was SAS. That was our number one complaint. SAS. That was our number one complaint. SAS. That was our number one complaint. And yeah, sometimes you just need to And yeah, sometimes you just need to And yeah, sometimes you just need to like get that bean over your head like get that bean over your head like get that bean over your head because I was like, "Oh, SAS is so because I was like, "Oh, SAS is so because I was like, "Oh, SAS is so complicated. I I mean, my co-founder was complicated. I I mean, my co-founder was complicated. I I mean, my co-founder was a coder, but I'm still like, oh, we're a coder, but I'm still like, oh, we're a coder, but I'm still like, oh, we're going to have to hire developers and I going to have to hire developers and I going to have to hire developers and I don't know anything about this whole don't know anything about this whole don't know anything about this whole world UI." And for people who may be world UI." And for people who may be world UI." And for people who may be listening who don't recognize the term, listening who don't recognize the term, listening who don't recognize the term, a lot of people will, but software as a a lot of people will, but software as a a lot of people will, but software as a service, right? Think about Dropbox. service, right? Think about Dropbox. service, right? Think about Dropbox. Maybe not the best example, but I mean Maybe not the best example, but I mean Maybe not the best example, but I mean Dropbox is a great example. But with a Dropbox is a great example. But with a Dropbox is a great example. But with a lot of these products, there's a there's lot of these products, there's a there's lot of these products, there's a there's a premium version. There's a version a premium version. There's a version a premium version. There's a version that you get to use for free and then if that you get to use for free and then if that you get to use for free and then if you want a bunch of additional storage you want a bunch of additional storage you want a bunch of additional storage or features or access, whatever it might or features or access, whatever it might or features or access, whatever it might be, then you pay $9.99 a month or be, then you pay $9.99 a month or be, then you pay $9.99 a month or whatever. And there's like the basic, whatever. And there's like the basic, whatever. And there's like the basic, intermediate, advanced version, intermediate, advanced version, intermediate, advanced version, enterprise, etc. That's SAS. Sorry to enterprise, etc. That's SAS. Sorry to enterprise, etc. That's SAS. Sorry to interrupt. I just want to define that. interrupt. I just want to define that. interrupt. I just want to define that. Yeah. But if you had told me that before Yeah. But if you had told me that before Yeah. But if you had told me that before we started, I would have been like, "Oh, we started, I would have been like, "Oh, we started, I would have been like, "Oh, logically then we should have the logically then we should have the logically then we should have the premium advanced enterprise version in premium advanced enterprise version in premium advanced enterprise version in the back end instead of the paid the back end instead of the paid the back end instead of the paid newsletter idea." So that didn't really newsletter idea." So that didn't really newsletter idea." So that didn't really go well until we ultimately shifted to go well until we ultimately shifted to go well until we ultimately shifted to what we should have been in the first what we should have been in the first what we should have been in the first place. So that was sort of the bad place. So that was sort of the bad place. So that was sort of the bad decision. decision. decision. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The good decision was definitely >> The good decision was definitely >> The good decision was definitely investing in this data, publishing data investing in this data, publishing data investing in this data, publishing data early on. So with back linko, this is early on. So with back linko, this is early on. So with back linko, this is something I only discovered after like something I only discovered after like something I only discovered after like five years of running the site and then five years of running the site and then five years of running the site and then with exploring topics I was like day one with exploring topics I was like day one with exploring topics I was like day one we're going to publish tons of data. we're going to publish tons of data. we're going to publish tons of data. We're going to be the source that's We're going to be the source that's We're going to be the source that's another strategy like be the source that another strategy like be the source that another strategy like be the source that of information on technology of information on technology of information on technology software e-commerce trends anything software e-commerce trends anything software e-commerce trends anything trend related we are going to be the trend related we are going to be the trend related we are going to be the source. We're going to have the latest source. We're going to have the latest source. We're going to have the latest data. we're going to have the best data. we're going to have the best data. we're going to have the best visuals and we're just going to be the visuals and we're just going to be the visuals and we're just going to be the source for that information. As opposed source for that information. As opposed source for that information. As opposed to writing how-to content, we really to writing how-to content, we really to writing how-to content, we really focus on datadriven content. Did it work focus on datadriven content. Did it work focus on datadriven content. Did it work right out of the gate or was there a right out of the gate or was there a right out of the gate or was there a formula that you realized worked after formula that you realized worked after formula that you realized worked after you had a particular you had a particular you had a particular well-received publication of data? well-received publication of data? well-received publication of data? >> It took a while to get going. A lot of >> It took a while to get going. A lot of >> It took a while to get going. A lot of mistakes, a lot of posts that weren't mistakes, a lot of posts that weren't mistakes, a lot of posts that weren't great or the topic wasn't a good choice. great or the topic wasn't a good choice. great or the topic wasn't a good choice. What really helped us, what was sort of What really helped us, what was sort of What really helped us, what was sort of the smash hit were these very specific the smash hit were these very specific the smash hit were these very specific stats that people look for. So what I stats that people look for. So what I stats that people look for. So what I discovered through this process was this discovered through this process was this discovered through this process was this stats page idea is nothing new. Like stats page idea is nothing new. Like stats page idea is nothing new. Like people write, you know, the biggest people write, you know, the biggest people write, you know, the biggest stats around the fitness industry or stats around the fitness industry or stats around the fitness industry or LinkedIn stats or whatever. And those LinkedIn stats or whatever. And those LinkedIn stats or whatever. And those are fine, but usually journalists aren't are fine, but usually journalists aren't are fine, but usually journalists aren't looking for LinkedIn stats or Tik Tok looking for LinkedIn stats or Tik Tok looking for LinkedIn stats or Tik Tok stats. Some of them are and that's fine, stats. Some of them are and that's fine, stats. Some of them are and that's fine, but most of them are consuming very but most of them are consuming very but most of them are consuming very specific like how many users does Tik specific like how many users does Tik specific like how many users does Tik Tok have or how many people use LinkedIn Tok have or how many people use LinkedIn Tok have or how many people use LinkedIn every day like daily active users or how every day like daily active users or how every day like daily active users or how many posts are on LinkedIn every day many posts are on LinkedIn every day many posts are on LinkedIn every day like it's super specific. So if you're like it's super specific. So if you're like it's super specific. So if you're able to find a credible stat around that able to find a credible stat around that able to find a credible stat around that then you can crush it even if you're not then you can crush it even if you're not then you can crush it even if you're not the one that developed it. Like a lot of the one that developed it. Like a lot of the one that developed it. Like a lot of times these are also buried in like PDFs times these are also buried in like PDFs times these are also buried in like PDFs or white papers or again interviews that or white papers or again interviews that or white papers or again interviews that you have to pull out. Like one of our you have to pull out. Like one of our you have to pull out. Like one of our biggest smash hits in this area was how biggest smash hits in this area was how biggest smash hits in this area was how many users a chat GPT have. Granted, we many users a chat GPT have. Granted, we many users a chat GPT have. Granted, we publish this early. That's another thing publish this early. That's another thing publish this early. That's another thing that can help a lot. If you publish one that can help a lot. If you publish one that can help a lot. If you publish one of the first or the first specific stats of the first or the first specific stats of the first or the first specific stats page, then you get into this virtuous page, then you get into this virtuous page, then you get into this virtuous cycle where you're very visible when cycle where you're very visible when cycle where you're very visible when someone's searching for that topic. Then someone's searching for that topic. Then someone's searching for that topic. Then they link to you, they mention you, they link to you, they mention you, they link to you, they mention you, makes you more visible, and then you makes you more visible, and then you makes you more visible, and then you just are like in this massive flywheel. just are like in this massive flywheel. just are like in this massive flywheel. So, one of our best pieces was how many So, one of our best pieces was how many So, one of our best pieces was how many users does chatbd have and every once in users does chatbd have and every once in users does chatbd have and every once in a while Sam Alman will give a talk and a while Sam Alman will give a talk and a while Sam Alman will give a talk and he'll mention it or when they raise a he'll mention it or when they raise a he'll mention it or when they raise a round they'll mention it and all we did round they'll mention it and all we did round they'll mention it and all we did was just document their user growth was just document their user growth was just document their user growth based on these statements that they based on these statements that they based on these statements that they made. The initial post probably cost made. The initial post probably cost made. The initial post probably cost hiring a freelancer like 200 bucks and hiring a freelancer like 200 bucks and hiring a freelancer like 200 bucks and then to update it every couple months is then to update it every couple months is then to update it every couple months is like another 50 and it's been referenced like another 50 and it's been referenced like another 50 and it's been referenced like 3,000 times. It's absolutely like 3,000 times. It's absolutely like 3,000 times. It's absolutely insane. they'll have the effort to insane. they'll have the effort to insane. they'll have the effort to reward ratio is nuts on that. And of reward ratio is nuts on that. And of reward ratio is nuts on that. And of course, it's just like part of it is is course, it's just like part of it is is course, it's just like part of it is is some pieces do better than others, but some pieces do better than others, but some pieces do better than others, but we've noticed that that formula tends to we've noticed that that formula tends to we've noticed that that formula tends to work well. If you can find a trending work well. If you can find a trending work well. If you can find a trending specific stat that bloggers or specific stat that bloggers or specific stat that bloggers or journalists are looking for when they journalists are looking for when they journalists are looking for when they write about that topic, they're very write about that topic, they're very write about that topic, they're very likely to reference you. So, I read I'll likely to reference you. So, I read I'll likely to reference you. So, I read I'll give credit here. This is on give credit here. This is on give credit here. This is on growthmanifested.com. Found this doing growthmanifested.com. Found this doing growthmanifested.com. Found this doing research. You were interviewed towards research. You were interviewed towards research. You were interviewed towards the end of that interview by Alex. the end of that interview by Alex. the end of that interview by Alex. He asked you what the best piece of He asked you what the best piece of He asked you what the best piece of business advice was that you've ever business advice was that you've ever business advice was that you've ever received. Now, this may have changed and received. Now, this may have changed and received. Now, this may have changed and there's probably more, but it was Noah there's probably more, but it was Noah there's probably more, but it was Noah Kagan advising you to double down on Kagan advising you to double down on Kagan advising you to double down on what works. Could you expand on that? what works. Could you expand on that? what works. Could you expand on that? And then I'm wondering if there are any And then I'm wondering if there are any And then I'm wondering if there are any other sort of mantras or short pieces of other sort of mantras or short pieces of other sort of mantras or short pieces of advice that you would also put on like advice that you would also put on like advice that you would also put on like the Mount Rushmore of your best advice the Mount Rushmore of your best advice the Mount Rushmore of your best advice that you've received. It sounds so that you've received. It sounds so that you've received. It sounds so simple, but it's one of those pieces of simple, but it's one of those pieces of simple, but it's one of those pieces of advice that's simple but hard to follow. advice that's simple but hard to follow. advice that's simple but hard to follow. Because when you're running a business, Because when you're running a business, Because when you're running a business, there's like a million things to worry there's like a million things to worry there's like a million things to worry about, to focus on. There's new about, to focus on. There's new about, to focus on. There's new opportunities, new challenges, other opportunities, new challenges, other opportunities, new challenges, other competitors, you have an employee that's competitors, you have an employee that's competitors, you have an employee that's sick. It's hard to really focus on like sick. It's hard to really focus on like sick. It's hard to really focus on like that little thing that works. But I that little thing that works. But I that little thing that works. But I think this is especially important when think this is especially important when think this is especially important when you're first starting out because when you're first starting out because when you're first starting out because when you're first starting out, nothing's you're first starting out, nothing's you're first starting out, nothing's working almost by definition. Like working almost by definition. Like working almost by definition. Like you're starting something new. At least you're starting something new. At least you're starting something new. At least in my experience, when I'm starting in my experience, when I'm starting in my experience, when I'm starting something new, I don't know, like something new, I don't know, like something new, I don't know, like nothing's working. And then when nothing's working. And then when nothing's working. And then when something does, most people are like, something does, most people are like, something does, most people are like, "Okay, that works. Now, let's go "Okay, that works. Now, let's go "Okay, that works. Now, let's go something else." But instead, you should something else." But instead, you should something else." But instead, you should just take that niche. It's almost like a just take that niche. It's almost like a just take that niche. It's almost like a little niche when you're rock climbing. little niche when you're rock climbing. little niche when you're rock climbing. Just take that niche and just double Just take that niche and just double Just take that niche and just double down, triple down, quadrup. It should down, triple down, quadrup. It should down, triple down, quadrup. It should really be like 10x down on what works really be like 10x down on what works really be like 10x down on what works because it's so rare that you find because it's so rare that you find because it's so rare that you find something that works. And honestly, in something that works. And honestly, in something that works. And honestly, in most businesses, if you can find one most businesses, if you can find one most businesses, if you can find one thing that works and scale it up, that thing that works and scale it up, that thing that works and scale it up, that can get you pretty far. Mhm. Aside from can get you pretty far. Mhm. Aside from can get you pretty far. Mhm. Aside from the 4-hour work week, right, which was, the 4-hour work week, right, which was, the 4-hour work week, right, which was, I suppose, a catalyst of sorts in the I suppose, a catalyst of sorts in the I suppose, a catalyst of sorts in the beginning, were there any other Have beginning, were there any other Have beginning, were there any other Have there been any other books that stand there been any other books that stand there been any other books that stand out or resources when someone comes to out or resources when someone comes to out or resources when someone comes to you and they're like, I'm thinking about you and they're like, I'm thinking about you and they're like, I'm thinking about starting a business, right? I'd like to starting a business, right? I'd like to starting a business, right? I'd like to start a business. Are there any books or start a business. Are there any books or start a business. Are there any books or resources that you tend to recommend resources that you tend to recommend resources that you tend to recommend frequently? frequently? frequently? >> For people that are just like, I want to >> For people that are just like, I want to >> For people that are just like, I want to start a business and they're like, I start a business and they're like, I start a business and they're like, I don't know what to do, how to do it. don't know what to do, how to do it. don't know what to do, how to do it. They're like totally green. Then Ready, They're like totally green. Then Ready, They're like totally green. Then Ready, Fire, Aim is usually the book that I Fire, Aim is usually the book that I Fire, Aim is usually the book that I recommend. You familiar with that one? recommend. You familiar with that one? recommend. You familiar with that one? >> I've heard of it. >> I've heard of it. >> I've heard of it. >> Michael Masterson. >> Michael Masterson. >> Michael Masterson. >> What leads you to recommend this book? >> What leads you to recommend this book? >> What leads you to recommend this book? >> It gets people into the action mindset, >> It gets people into the action mindset, >> It gets people into the action mindset, like leaning towards action instead of like leaning towards action instead of like leaning towards action instead of analysis. analysis. analysis. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I was guilty of this when I first >> I was guilty of this when I first >> I was guilty of this when I first started doing a lot of spreadsheets and started doing a lot of spreadsheets and started doing a lot of spreadsheets and analysis and business cards, registering analysis and business cards, registering analysis and business cards, registering a company, all those things that you can a company, all those things that you can a company, all those things that you can do later that don't really matter. This do later that don't really matter. This do later that don't really matter. This gets you going on like the most gets you going on like the most gets you going on like the most important things important things important things >> and then later you can always change >> and then later you can always change >> and then later you can always change course right but the key is really like course right but the key is really like course right but the key is really like starting starting starting or like Paul starting starting starting or like Paul starting starting starting or like Paul Graham says action produces information. Graham says action produces information. Graham says action produces information. >> So if this is book basically will >> So if this is book basically will >> So if this is book basically will hopefully give people a kick in the butt hopefully give people a kick in the butt hopefully give people a kick in the butt to get started instead of analyzing and to get started instead of analyzing and to get started instead of analyzing and then being like okay now I'm ready then being like okay now I'm ready then being like okay now I'm ready >> just be like start today and then like >> just be like start today and then like >> just be like start today and then like change as you go. change as you go. change as you go. >> I feel like that book is almost a >> I feel like that book is almost a >> I feel like that book is almost a litmitness test. If you read that book litmitness test. If you read that book litmitness test. If you read that book and at the end you don't do anything, and at the end you don't do anything, and at the end you don't do anything, then you're probably not ready. then you're probably not ready. then you're probably not ready. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The whole point is to get started and >> The whole point is to get started and >> The whole point is to get started and like it it gives you advice on how to like it it gives you advice on how to like it it gives you advice on how to know you've got traction and what to do know you've got traction and what to do know you've got traction and what to do once you get traction. So, I feel like once you get traction. So, I feel like once you get traction. So, I feel like if you just read the book and you're if you just read the book and you're if you just read the book and you're like, "Okay, what's the next book to like, "Okay, what's the next book to like, "Okay, what's the next book to read?" read?" read?" >> It's probably not the best approach. So, >> It's probably not the best approach. So, >> It's probably not the best approach. So, that book is hopefully the the kick in that book is hopefully the the kick in that book is hopefully the the kick in the butt that someone needs. This might the butt that someone needs. This might the butt that someone needs. This might be a tough question to answer, but how be a tough question to answer, but how be a tough question to answer, but how would you define the startup costs for would you define the startup costs for would you define the startup costs for Back Linko and Exploding Topics? Like in Back Linko and Exploding Topics? Like in Back Linko and Exploding Topics? Like in the first 3 months of those two the first 3 months of those two the first 3 months of those two companies existing, companies existing, companies existing, how much money was invested in each of how much money was invested in each of how much money was invested in each of those? Like how much money was required those? Like how much money was required those? Like how much money was required slashinvested? slashinvested? slashinvested? >> For Back Linko's case, a few hundred >> For Back Linko's case, a few hundred >> For Back Linko's case, a few hundred bucks at the most. It was like domain, bucks at the most. It was like domain, bucks at the most. It was like domain, WordPress. WordPress. WordPress. I probably hired someone to create like I probably hired someone to create like I probably hired someone to create like a basic blog design theme for WordPress. a basic blog design theme for WordPress. a basic blog design theme for WordPress. >> Don't remember how much, but like if I >> Don't remember how much, but like if I >> Don't remember how much, but like if I spent a thousand, I would I say that's a spent a thousand, I would I say that's a spent a thousand, I would I say that's a lot. I was probably more like 500 bucks. lot. I was probably more like 500 bucks. lot. I was probably more like 500 bucks. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because it's a blog. I mean, really, at >> Because it's a blog. I mean, really, at >> Because it's a blog. I mean, really, at the end of the day, there shouldn't be a the end of the day, there shouldn't be a the end of the day, there shouldn't be a lot of cost involved at that. Exploding lot of cost involved at that. Exploding lot of cost involved at that. Exploding top was a lot different because I top was a lot different because I top was a lot different because I acquired like a prototype version from acquired like a prototype version from acquired like a prototype version from someone for 75,000 someone for 75,000 someone for 75,000 to start with and hire them as part and to start with and hire them as part and to start with and hire them as part and they that that was part of their pay they that that was part of their pay they that that was part of their pay package as well. So just on day one I package as well. So just on day one I package as well. So just on day one I was in with that much. was in with that much. was in with that much. >> And then it was a redesign and a rebrand >> And then it was a redesign and a rebrand >> And then it was a redesign and a rebrand adding more trends hiring a couple adding more trends hiring a couple adding more trends hiring a couple people to do some basic things. So that people to do some basic things. So that people to do some basic things. So that was probably more like 90,000 something was probably more like 90,000 something was probably more like 90,000 something in that range. in that range. in that range. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But it was a unique situation cuz it >> But it was a unique situation cuz it >> But it was a unique situation cuz it wasn't built from scratch. was acquiring wasn't built from scratch. was acquiring wasn't built from scratch. was acquiring someone and then that was also paying someone and then that was also paying someone and then that was also paying for some of their time. It was kind of for some of their time. It was kind of for some of their time. It was kind of like hiring them as part of the like hiring them as part of the like hiring them as part of the acquisition and that was paid out over acquisition and that was paid out over acquisition and that was paid out over the course of a few months. So, I'm not the course of a few months. So, I'm not the course of a few months. So, I'm not exactly sure how much would be like in exactly sure how much would be like in exactly sure how much would be like in that first couple months, but it was in that first couple months, but it was in that first couple months, but it was in that range. that range. that range. >> Why did you acquire something and what >> Why did you acquire something and what >> Why did you acquire something and what was the the deal structure of the was the the deal structure of the was the the deal structure of the acquisition? acquisition? acquisition? >> I acquired it because I was trying to >> I acquired it because I was trying to >> I acquired it because I was trying to build this exact thing myself and just build this exact thing myself and just build this exact thing myself and just stumbling and, you know, stubbing my toe stumbling and, you know, stubbing my toe stumbling and, you know, stubbing my toe over and over again. So, I knew that over and over again. So, I knew that over and over again. So, I knew that there was a an opportunity for this like there was a an opportunity for this like there was a an opportunity for this like trend like I couldn't even describe it trend like I couldn't even describe it trend like I couldn't even describe it very well. It's just basically you want very well. It's just basically you want very well. It's just basically you want to go to a website and just shows you to go to a website and just shows you to go to a website and just shows you trends in whatever niche you're trends in whatever niche you're trends in whatever niche you're interested in. And that sounds so interested in. And that sounds so interested in. And that sounds so simple, but nothing existed like that, simple, but nothing existed like that, simple, but nothing existed like that, believe it or not. believe it or not. believe it or not. >> And I hired someone to build something >> And I hired someone to build something >> And I hired someone to build something like that. like that. like that. >> And it was horrible. I used Reddit, so >> And it was horrible. I used Reddit, so >> And it was horrible. I used Reddit, so we'd look at subreddits and we would see we'd look at subreddits and we would see we'd look at subreddits and we would see how many times a word was mentioned or how many times a word was mentioned or how many times a word was mentioned or something and found nothing valuable. something and found nothing valuable. something and found nothing valuable. The signal to noise ratio was completely The signal to noise ratio was completely The signal to noise ratio was completely backwards. It was like for every 200 backwards. It was like for every 200 backwards. It was like for every 200 hits, one was like decent. And then one hits, one was like decent. And then one hits, one was like decent. And then one day someone forwarded me this random day someone forwarded me this random day someone forwarded me this random site this guy started and I'm like no site this guy started and I'm like no site this guy started and I'm like no this like this is exactly what I want this like this is exactly what I want this like this is exactly what I want but it was even better than I had but it was even better than I had but it was even better than I had imagined. imagined. imagined. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So then it reached out to him and then >> So then it reached out to him and then >> So then it reached out to him and then the deal structure was essentially buy the deal structure was essentially buy the deal structure was essentially buy it 100% straight up. it 100% straight up. it 100% straight up. part of the acquisition cost will be part of the acquisition cost will be part of the acquisition cost will be you'll get paid that and then on top of you'll get paid that and then on top of you'll get paid that and then on top of that if it goes well over the first I that if it goes well over the first I that if it goes well over the first I think couple months then we can set up think couple months then we can set up think couple months then we can set up some sort of part-time deal and if that some sort of part-time deal and if that some sort of part-time deal and if that goes well we can do full-time goes well we can do full-time goes well we can do full-time >> and he would be helping you throughout >> and he would be helping you throughout >> and he would be helping you throughout that entire period of time to determine that entire period of time to determine that entire period of time to determine help you determine if it's going well or help you determine if it's going well or help you determine if it's going well or not. not. not. >> Exactly. And he was the coder and >> Exactly. And he was the coder and >> Exactly. And he was the coder and developer behind the original version. developer behind the original version. developer behind the original version. So he was best qualified to to continue So he was best qualified to to continue So he was best qualified to to continue to work on it and improve it rather than to work on it and improve it rather than to work on it and improve it rather than hiring someone random to come in. He it hiring someone random to come in. He it hiring someone random to come in. He it was his vision to start with and then I was his vision to start with and then I was his vision to start with and then I said basically if it goes well with said basically if it goes well with said basically if it goes well with full-time for I think another month or full-time for I think another month or full-time for I think another month or so we'll basically be co-founders on so we'll basically be co-founders on so we'll basically be co-founders on this thing. The only rub will be if you this thing. The only rub will be if you this thing. The only rub will be if you want to want a lot of equity then want to want a lot of equity then want to want a lot of equity then you know you're going to have to put you know you're going to have to put you know you're going to have to put money in to fund this thing or if you money in to fund this thing or if you money in to fund this thing or if you prefer that you get more cash then you prefer that you get more cash then you prefer that you get more cash then you can just get a proper salary and then can just get a proper salary and then can just get a proper salary and then I'll own most of the business. So that's I'll own most of the business. So that's I'll own most of the business. So that's basically what we did. He chose more basically what we did. He chose more basically what we did. He chose more money and then he owned a part of as money and then he owned a part of as money and then he owned a part of as equity in exploding topics. equity in exploding topics. equity in exploding topics. >> How did you end up in Europe? >> How did you end up in Europe? >> How did you end up in Europe? >> Love to be honest. >> Love to be honest. >> Love to be honest. >> Yeah, that'll do it. >> Yeah, that'll do it. >> Yeah, that'll do it. >> Yeah. I mean, my wife, we met in >> Yeah. I mean, my wife, we met in >> Yeah. I mean, my wife, we met in Thailand many years ago and then we Thailand many years ago and then we Thailand many years ago and then we moved to Berlin. This is actually a moved to Berlin. This is actually a moved to Berlin. This is actually a funny story partially from the 4-hour funny story partially from the 4-hour funny story partially from the 4-hour work week because you mentioned Berlin work week because you mentioned Berlin work week because you mentioned Berlin as like this cheap place. So, we're in as like this cheap place. So, we're in as like this cheap place. So, we're in Thailand looking at Craigslist and Thailand looking at Craigslist and Thailand looking at Craigslist and looking at all these apartments that are looking at all these apartments that are looking at all these apartments that are like palaces for €300 a month. And we're like palaces for €300 a month. And we're like palaces for €300 a month. And we're like, Tim was right. This is amazing. like, Tim was right. This is amazing. like, Tim was right. This is amazing. Like, you can live like a king in Berlin Like, you can live like a king in Berlin Like, you can live like a king in Berlin for nothing. So, as we're like flying for nothing. So, as we're like flying for nothing. So, as we're like flying there, we send out all these emails like there, we send out all these emails like there, we send out all these emails like we're gonna and of course they're all we're gonna and of course they're all we're gonna and of course they're all scams. It's like I'm lost and like I oh scams. It's like I'm lost and like I oh scams. It's like I'm lost and like I oh I'm out of town but if and I lost my I'm out of town but if and I lost my I'm out of town but if and I lost my passport but if you leave like this passport but if you leave like this passport but if you leave like this money into this Western Union like oh we money into this Western Union like oh we money into this Western Union like oh we show up to Berlin we're in a hostel show up to Berlin we're in a hostel show up to Berlin we're in a hostel >> for like €8 a night in a 12 bed hostel >> for like €8 a night in a 12 bed hostel >> for like €8 a night in a 12 bed hostel while we realized that this whole thing while we realized that this whole thing while we realized that this whole thing all these ads we're applying to is a all these ads we're applying to is a all these ads we're applying to is a scam. No one uses Craigslist in Germany. scam. No one uses Craigslist in Germany. scam. No one uses Craigslist in Germany. So then we eventually found apartment So then we eventually found apartment So then we eventually found apartment lived in Germany and she's Portuguese. lived in Germany and she's Portuguese. lived in Germany and she's Portuguese. >> Mhm. So we visited Portugal a number of >> Mhm. So we visited Portugal a number of >> Mhm. So we visited Portugal a number of times while we lived there and times while we lived there and times while we lived there and eventually was like we could freeze our eventually was like we could freeze our eventually was like we could freeze our asses off or we could live in the sun asses off or we could live in the sun asses off or we could live in the sun like so much like the sun. So yeah, like so much like the sun. So yeah, like so much like the sun. So yeah, that's basically how we ended up here. that's basically how we ended up here. that's basically how we ended up here. Yeah. The thing about the 4 work week, Yeah. The thing about the 4 work week, Yeah. The thing about the 4 work week, right? The principles and frameworks all right? The principles and frameworks all right? The principles and frameworks all still work. Obviously some of the tech still work. Obviously some of the tech still work. Obviously some of the tech tools since they were last updated in tools since they were last updated in tools since they were last updated in 2009, most of them are completely 2009, most of them are completely 2009, most of them are completely irrelevant. Probably not going to use go irrelevant. Probably not going to use go irrelevant. Probably not going to use go to my PC at this point, right? access to my PC at this point, right? access to my PC at this point, right? access your home computer remotely to do the your home computer remotely to do the your home computer remotely to do the work you need to do. work you need to do. work you need to do. >> But the the pricing examples obviously >> But the the pricing examples obviously >> But the the pricing examples obviously have changed right since it was first have changed right since it was first have changed right since it was first written in 2007209. written in 2007209. written in 2007209. So the the principle the idea of geo So the the principle the idea of geo So the the principle the idea of geo arbitrage and applying that to what you arbitrage and applying that to what you arbitrage and applying that to what you earn and how you pay contractors earn and how you pay contractors earn and how you pay contractors employees and then your sort of living employees and then your sort of living employees and then your sort of living expenses. It applies, but definitely for expenses. It applies, but definitely for expenses. It applies, but definitely for anybody who's who ends up picking it up, anybody who's who ends up picking it up, anybody who's who ends up picking it up, if if you read that doing something in if if you read that doing something in if if you read that doing something in Buenosares costs A, B, and C, I would go Buenosares costs A, B, and C, I would go Buenosares costs A, B, and C, I would go online and fact check that because it's online and fact check that because it's online and fact check that because it's probably changed a little bit. probably changed a little bit. probably changed a little bit. >> What are other sort of lessons learned >> What are other sort of lessons learned >> What are other sort of lessons learned or things that you would like to share or things that you would like to share or things that you would like to share with folks? Could be about your journey, with folks? Could be about your journey, with folks? Could be about your journey, could be about mistakes along the way, could be about mistakes along the way, could be about mistakes along the way, really anything at all. Because part of really anything at all. Because part of really anything at all. Because part of the value of these conversations is that the value of these conversations is that the value of these conversations is that we can get into a lot of specifics that we can get into a lot of specifics that we can get into a lot of specifics that are omitted in the are omitted in the are omitted in the magazine profiles of people that end up magazine profiles of people that end up magazine profiles of people that end up reading like a list of highlights, reading like a list of highlights, reading like a list of highlights, right? And there's obviously a right? And there's obviously a right? And there's obviously a survivorship bias to begin with if survivorship bias to begin with if survivorship bias to begin with if people appear on magazine covers. I know people appear on magazine covers. I know people appear on magazine covers. I know that's an antiquated example to use, that's an antiquated example to use, that's an antiquated example to use, but what else would you like to share but what else would you like to share but what else would you like to share with folks or anything else you'd like with folks or anything else you'd like with folks or anything else you'd like to add just about the about the journey to add just about the about the journey to add just about the about the journey cuz it's not over. It still goes. cuz it's not over. It still goes. cuz it's not over. It still goes. >> One thing that I've discovered recently >> One thing that I've discovered recently >> One thing that I've discovered recently that I wanted to share would be actually that I wanted to share would be actually that I wanted to share would be actually filling the void. filling the void. filling the void. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I felt the void after selling exploding >> I felt the void after selling exploding >> I felt the void after selling exploding topics and and how I was able to fill topics and and how I was able to fill topics and and how I was able to fill the void. the void. the void. >> Yeah, please. So, set the stage for you >> Yeah, please. So, set the stage for you >> Yeah, please. So, set the stage for you like I sold back Linko and then about like I sold back Linko and then about like I sold back Linko and then about two years later sold Exploding Topics two years later sold Exploding Topics two years later sold Exploding Topics and was just kind of going full-time, and was just kind of going full-time, and was just kind of going full-time, not super crazy working all the time not super crazy working all the time not super crazy working all the time because I was fairly efficient, but because I was fairly efficient, but because I was fairly efficient, but still working all the time and then went still working all the time and then went still working all the time and then went from that to like basically stopped to from that to like basically stopped to from that to like basically stopped to zero. And a lot of people I think they zero. And a lot of people I think they zero. And a lot of people I think they have this feeling of listlessness, no have this feeling of listlessness, no have this feeling of listlessness, no direction, maybe a bit of depression. direction, maybe a bit of depression. direction, maybe a bit of depression. For me, the symptom was stress. Like I For me, the symptom was stress. Like I For me, the symptom was stress. Like I think I was wired for stress not only think I was wired for stress not only think I was wired for stress not only just in general but also because of the just in general but also because of the just in general but also because of the sale process is stressful and then just sale process is stressful and then just sale process is stressful and then just because the sale is done your body and I because the sale is done your body and I because the sale is done your body and I think part of your like reptilian brain think part of your like reptilian brain think part of your like reptilian brain doesn't really recognize that and it doesn't really recognize that and it doesn't really recognize that and it still is looking it's looking for still is looking it's looking for still is looking it's looking for threats and it's looking for threats and it's looking for threats and it's looking for opportunities and it's just not chilled opportunities and it's just not chilled opportunities and it's just not chilled out. So I struggled for like two months out. So I struggled for like two months out. So I struggled for like two months with stress on my aura ring my stress with stress on my aura ring my stress with stress on my aura ring my stress was like 2x baseline from after I sold. was like 2x baseline from after I sold. was like 2x baseline from after I sold. And you'd think it'd be the opposite. And you'd think it'd be the opposite. And you'd think it'd be the opposite. You'd be like, "This is great. Like, I You'd be like, "This is great. Like, I You'd be like, "This is great. Like, I sold two companies. I'm good for the sold two companies. I'm good for the sold two companies. I'm good for the rest of my life." Like, "What is there rest of my life." Like, "What is there rest of my life." Like, "What is there to be stressed about?" And then I to be stressed about?" And then I to be stressed about?" And then I realized what I needed was a hard reset. realized what I needed was a hard reset. realized what I needed was a hard reset. That was the first step. We went on a That was the first step. We went on a That was the first step. We went on a trip, got away from the environment, got trip, got away from the environment, got trip, got away from the environment, got away from the day-to-day life, and then away from the day-to-day life, and then away from the day-to-day life, and then it somehow was able to hack my brain to it somehow was able to hack my brain to it somehow was able to hack my brain to be like, "Okay, be like, "Okay, be like, "Okay, you're safe or like things are chill you're safe or like things are chill you're safe or like things are chill now." So, when I went back home, the now." So, when I went back home, the now." So, when I went back home, the stress was gone. It was like back to stress was gone. It was like back to stress was gone. It was like back to baseline or below baseline. baseline or below baseline. baseline or below baseline. >> What was the trip? >> What was the trip? >> What was the trip? >> It was a trip to the south of Portugal >> It was a trip to the south of Portugal >> It was a trip to the south of Portugal to the Algarve. to the Algarve. to the Algarve. >> Yeah, it's a nice spot. >> Yeah, it's a nice spot. >> Yeah, it's a nice spot. >> So went to the beach. >> So went to the beach. >> So went to the beach. >> Nice oranges. Toasty. >> Nice oranges. Toasty. >> Nice oranges. Toasty. >> Yeah, good orange. Yeah. >> Yeah, good orange. Yeah. >> Yeah, good orange. Yeah. >> So spent some time down there and that >> So spent some time down there and that >> So spent some time down there and that was just like the hard reset. I think was just like the hard reset. I think was just like the hard reset. I think you just need to get out of your you just need to get out of your you just need to get out of your environment. But then when I got back, environment. But then when I got back, environment. But then when I got back, it was like stress is gone, but now it was like stress is gone, but now it was like stress is gone, but now feeling a little bit bored. feeling a little bit bored. feeling a little bit bored. >> Like that boredom was coming back. And I >> Like that boredom was coming back. And I >> Like that boredom was coming back. And I was tempted to start another startup and was tempted to start another startup and was tempted to start another startup and I read this someone sent me this who I read this someone sent me this who I read this someone sent me this who another friend who had a big another friend who had a big another friend who had a big acquisition. He sent me this thing I acquisition. He sent me this thing I acquisition. He sent me this thing I think it was in the Yale School of think it was in the Yale School of think it was in the Yale School of Management and it was basically they Management and it was basically they Management and it was basically they interviewed founders that had just interviewed founders that had just interviewed founders that had just exited and they asked him their advice. exited and they asked him their advice. exited and they asked him their advice. >> What was it like? What were the good ups >> What was it like? What were the good ups >> What was it like? What were the good ups and the downs? And they basically said and the downs? And they basically said and the downs? And they basically said when you sell there were like when you sell there were like when you sell there were like psychological dangers that can occur. psychological dangers that can occur. psychological dangers that can occur. One is that you lose your sense of One is that you lose your sense of One is that you lose your sense of structure. The other is you lose your structure. The other is you lose your structure. The other is you lose your sense of purpose and you lose your sense sense of purpose and you lose your sense sense of purpose and you lose your sense of connection with your team. It all of connection with your team. It all of connection with your team. It all goes away like you have it and then one goes away like you have it and then one goes away like you have it and then one day you literally don't. So different day you literally don't. So different day you literally don't. So different people react to it in different ways but people react to it in different ways but people react to it in different ways but they warned that the a lot of case they warned that the a lot of case they warned that the a lot of case studies in this paper were saying people studies in this paper were saying people studies in this paper were saying people that started companies within a year of that started companies within a year of that started companies within a year of selling usually regretted it. selling usually regretted it. selling usually regretted it. >> So basically take a year and don't make >> So basically take a year and don't make >> So basically take a year and don't make any major commitments whatsoever. So any major commitments whatsoever. So any major commitments whatsoever. So that's what I did. It kept me from that's what I did. It kept me from that's what I did. It kept me from starting these I had all these ideas I'm starting these I had all these ideas I'm starting these I had all these ideas I'm going to start a soccer and then I would going to start a soccer and then I would going to start a soccer and then I would be like wait a year wait a year wait a be like wait a year wait a year wait a be like wait a year wait a year wait a year and then by the time a year came year and then by the time a year came year and then by the time a year came around I didn't really want to because I around I didn't really want to because I around I didn't really want to because I was able to fill the void largely with was able to fill the void largely with was able to fill the void largely with tennis tennis tennis >> for me tennis has been one activity >> for me tennis has been one activity >> for me tennis has been one activity checks all the boxes and fills this void checks all the boxes and fills this void checks all the boxes and fills this void it's amazing then because if you think it's amazing then because if you think it's amazing then because if you think about it about it about it like if you want to have fun you play like if you want to have fun you play like if you want to have fun you play video games or watch TV or something if video games or watch TV or something if video games or watch TV or something if you want to have socialize you go out you want to have socialize you go out you want to have socialize you go out drinking if you want to exercise, you go drinking if you want to exercise, you go drinking if you want to exercise, you go to the gym. If you want to get fresh to the gym. If you want to get fresh to the gym. If you want to get fresh air, you go for a walk. Tennis has all air, you go for a walk. Tennis has all air, you go for a walk. Tennis has all these things like in one activity. And these things like in one activity. And these things like in one activity. And if you want a community, you need to if you want a community, you need to if you want a community, you need to like whatever. I don't know. I mean, I like whatever. I don't know. I mean, I like whatever. I don't know. I mean, I actually don't even know how to do that actually don't even know how to do that actually don't even know how to do that outside of tennis. That was the thing outside of tennis. That was the thing outside of tennis. That was the thing that changed was what I joined a tennis that changed was what I joined a tennis that changed was what I joined a tennis club club club >> and there's a lot of other entrepreneurs >> and there's a lot of other entrepreneurs >> and there's a lot of other entrepreneurs there. A lot of Americans, man. It's there. A lot of Americans, man. It's there. A lot of Americans, man. It's like the 51st state over there, to be like the 51st state over there, to be like the 51st state over there, to be honest. It's getting a little crazy. But honest. It's getting a little crazy. But honest. It's getting a little crazy. But anyway, so I filled the void with this anyway, so I filled the void with this anyway, so I filled the void with this community of people that are playing community of people that are playing community of people that are playing tennis, trying to improve, obsessed with tennis, trying to improve, obsessed with tennis, trying to improve, obsessed with the game, like watching YouTube videos, the game, like watching YouTube videos, the game, like watching YouTube videos, reading about it, practicing all the reading about it, practicing all the reading about it, practicing all the time, and now I don't have that same time, and now I don't have that same time, and now I don't have that same sense of like wanting to start something sense of like wanting to start something sense of like wanting to start something new. I love that. And just a few new. I love that. And just a few new. I love that. And just a few observations since, as you would observations since, as you would observations since, as you would imagine, since the book came out in imagine, since the book came out in imagine, since the book came out in 2007, I've had the opportunity to sort 2007, I've had the opportunity to sort 2007, I've had the opportunity to sort of vicariously watch a lot of people of vicariously watch a lot of people of vicariously watch a lot of people grapple with this and having worked with grapple with this and having worked with grapple with this and having worked with so many startups in angel investing, so many startups in angel investing, so many startups in angel investing, granted in a kind of venture-backed granted in a kind of venture-backed granted in a kind of venture-backed environment, but the a lot of the environment, but the a lot of the environment, but the a lot of the challenges are the same. challenges are the same. challenges are the same. >> Yeah. Whether you're coming out of for >> Yeah. Whether you're coming out of for >> Yeah. Whether you're coming out of for instance, you know, I know guys in instance, you know, I know guys in instance, you know, I know guys in special operations, if you're coming out special operations, if you're coming out special operations, if you're coming out of running a company, if you're coming of running a company, if you're coming of running a company, if you're coming out of starting and running a company, out of starting and running a company, out of starting and running a company, when you lose, as you put it, and I when you lose, as you put it, and I when you lose, as you put it, and I really liked the categories you really liked the categories you really liked the categories you mentioned, right, when you lose the mentioned, right, when you lose the mentioned, right, when you lose the structure, when you lose in a sense, the structure, when you lose in a sense, the structure, when you lose in a sense, the identity, when you lose the connection identity, when you lose the connection identity, when you lose the connection to team, to team, to team, you can end up with a severe degree of you can end up with a severe degree of you can end up with a severe degree of vertigo, right? and a a very precarious vertigo, right? and a a very precarious vertigo, right? and a a very precarious paradox of choice and something like paradox of choice and something like paradox of choice and something like tennis and some people listening might tennis and some people listening might tennis and some people listening might think like what tennis think like what tennis think like what tennis probably even if it's not the forever probably even if it's not the forever probably even if it's not the forever solution and the end all be all what it solution and the end all be all what it solution and the end all be all what it does just like getting your your does just like getting your your does just like getting your your recommended daily allowance of essential recommended daily allowance of essential recommended daily allowance of essential amino acids and vitamins and so on amino acids and vitamins and so on amino acids and vitamins and so on you're getting just enough that it you're getting just enough that it you're getting just enough that it provides ides you with the psycho provides ides you with the psycho provides ides you with the psycho emotional sort of emotional sort of emotional sort of health and space to think about things health and space to think about things health and space to think about things more clearly instead of being reactive. more clearly instead of being reactive. more clearly instead of being reactive. You know what I mean? Like you you're You know what I mean? Like you you're You know what I mean? Like you you're getting enough of all of those things getting enough of all of those things getting enough of all of those things and it provides you with a buffer and a and it provides you with a buffer and a and it provides you with a buffer and a certain equilibrium that allows you to certain equilibrium that allows you to certain equilibrium that allows you to think about things more clearly. And think about things more clearly. And think about things more clearly. And furthermore, this is not necessarily a furthermore, this is not necessarily a furthermore, this is not necessarily a problem you have to solve after problem you have to solve after problem you have to solve after everything vanishes, right? You can you everything vanishes, right? You can you everything vanishes, right? You can you can think about this in advance and can think about this in advance and can think about this in advance and experiment with things so that experiment with things so that experiment with things so that when you have like a a real phase shift when you have like a a real phase shift when you have like a a real phase shift which in the context of the 4-hour work which in the context of the 4-hour work which in the context of the 4-hour work week isn't necessarily selling a week isn't necessarily selling a week isn't necessarily selling a company. It's just like once you get it company. It's just like once you get it company. It's just like once you get it to a high degree of automation where it to a high degree of automation where it to a high degree of automation where it requires 2 3 hours a week if that to requires 2 3 hours a week if that to requires 2 3 hours a week if that to manage which is more common than people manage which is more common than people manage which is more common than people might think might think might think what you do with the rest of the time is what you do with the rest of the time is what you do with the rest of the time is a tremendously big question right. a tremendously big question right. a tremendously big question right. >> Yep. So, I love that. Makes me want to >> Yep. So, I love that. Makes me want to >> Yep. So, I love that. Makes me want to go back to the Algarve. Also go back to the Algarve. Also go back to the Algarve. Also can get a little toasty. Could be worse. can get a little toasty. Could be worse. can get a little toasty. Could be worse. Let's put it that way. Let's put it that way. Let's put it that way. >> Yeah, it's a good country for tennis. >> Yeah, it's a good country for tennis. >> Yeah, it's a good country for tennis. Brian, this has been super fun. Where Brian, this has been super fun. Where Brian, this has been super fun. Where can people find you online? can people find you online? can people find you online? >> Let's start with YouTube. That would be >> Let's start with YouTube. That would be >> Let's start with YouTube. That would be the first place. And then LinkedIn. the first place. And then LinkedIn. the first place. And then LinkedIn. Brian Dean on YouTube and Brian Eden on Brian Dean on YouTube and Brian Eden on Brian Dean on YouTube and Brian Eden on LinkedIn. LinkedIn. LinkedIn. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. >> That other Brian Dean must have grabbed >> That other Brian Dean must have grabbed >> That other Brian Dean must have grabbed that one. >> Brian, is there anything else you would >> Brian, is there anything else you would like to say? like to say? like to say? before we wind to a close. before we wind to a close. before we wind to a close. >> This has been great. That's it. Thanks, >> This has been great. That's it. Thanks, >> This has been great. That's it. Thanks, man. I know it's late, several time man. I know it's late, several time man. I know it's late, several time zones away, and I appreciate being zones away, and I appreciate being zones away, and I appreciate being flexible on the timing. So, thanks so flexible on the timing. So, thanks so flexible on the timing. So, thanks so much for taking the time, everybody much for taking the time, everybody much for taking the time, everybody listening or watching, we will link to listening or watching, we will link to listening or watching, we will link to everything we discussed in the show everything we discussed in the show everything we discussed in the show notes as usual at tim.blog/mpodcast. notes as usual at tim.blog/mpodcast. notes as usual at tim.blog/mpodcast. And until next time, as always, be just And until next time, as always, be just And until next time, as always, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to a bit kinder than is necessary to a bit kinder than is necessary to others. and also to yourself. Thanks for others. and also to yourself. Thanks for others. and also to yourself. Thanks for tuning in.