Fitness Expert: This Simple Workout Burns More Fat Than Running

What exercise can you do in 20 years? What exercise can you do in 20 years? This probably the one you should be This probably the one you should be This probably the one you should be doing now. doing now. doing now. >> Michael Easter is a professor at the >> Michael Easter is a professor at the >> Michael Easter is a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and [music] a worldrenowned writer. [music] a worldrenowned writer. [music] a worldrenowned writer. >> Michael's distilled down one of the most >> Michael's distilled down one of the most >> Michael's distilled down one of the most impressive arguments for incorporating impressive arguments for incorporating impressive arguments for incorporating our ancient biological needs into our our ancient biological needs into our our ancient biological needs into our modern lifestyle. What is rucking? modern lifestyle. What is rucking? modern lifestyle. What is rucking? Rucking mixes endurance and strength Rucking mixes endurance and strength Rucking mixes endurance and strength [music] in one. The greatest human [music] in one. The greatest human [music] in one. The greatest human rucker is the greatest animal rucker in rucker is the greatest animal rucker in rucker is the greatest animal rucker in the entire world. And that's because the entire world. And that's because the entire world. And that's because humans are unique and that we evolved to humans are unique and that we evolved to humans are unique and that we evolved to carry weight for distance. This is the carry weight for distance. This is the carry weight for distance. This is the thing that I can finally do that gets me thing that I can finally do that gets me thing that I can finally do that gets me outdoors, that makes me feel good, that outdoors, that makes me feel good, that outdoors, that makes me feel good, that has helped me lose weight, that has has helped me lose weight, that has has helped me lose weight, that has improved my fitness, [music] and that's improved my fitness, [music] and that's improved my fitness, [music] and that's awesome. Rucking will burn more calories awesome. Rucking will burn more calories awesome. Rucking will burn more calories per mile than running. We've kind of per mile than running. We've kind of per mile than running. We've kind of missed the boat on this thing that we're missed the boat on this thing that we're missed the boat on this thing that we're really good at, and it has a ton of really good at, and it has a ton of really good at, and it has a ton of benefits. Maybe try putting it back in benefits. Maybe try putting it back in benefits. Maybe try putting it back in and see [music] what happens. Good to have you here, Michael. Thanks Good to have you here, Michael. Thanks for coming back. Likewise, man. for coming back. Likewise, man. for coming back. Likewise, man. >> Excited to be back. >> Excited to be back. >> Excited to be back. >> Our last episode was very popular. I >> Our last episode was very popular. I >> Our last episode was very popular. I have every expectation that this will uh have every expectation that this will uh have every expectation that this will uh be equally uh that the audience will be be equally uh that the audience will be be equally uh that the audience will be equally enthusiastic about this one. equally enthusiastic about this one. equally enthusiastic about this one. Lots to cover today. We're going to talk Lots to cover today. We're going to talk Lots to cover today. We're going to talk about your new book, Walk with Weight. about your new book, Walk with Weight. about your new book, Walk with Weight. We're going to be very rucking focused, We're going to be very rucking focused, We're going to be very rucking focused, but I want to start this conversation in but I want to start this conversation in but I want to start this conversation in a very particular place. I want to show a very particular place. I want to show a very particular place. I want to show you a clip from a podcast I did with you a clip from a podcast I did with you a clip from a podcast I did with your fellow Las Vegas loanite. your fellow Las Vegas loanite. your fellow Las Vegas loanite. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh his name is Alex Hold. You might have >> Uh his name is Alex Hold. You might have >> Uh his name is Alex Hold. You might have heard of him. heard of him. heard of him. >> I asked him a question and >> I asked him a question and >> I asked him a question and >> he gave a very interesting response. >> he gave a very interesting response. >> he gave a very interesting response. >> Have you seen this this uh enthusiasm >> Have you seen this this uh enthusiasm >> Have you seen this this uh enthusiasm around rocking that sort of has suddenly around rocking that sort of has suddenly around rocking that sort of has suddenly appeared? You must think like, well, I'm appeared? You must think like, well, I'm appeared? You must think like, well, I'm built for that. I could do I could go built for that. I could do I could go built for that. I could do I could go like all day with that. like all day with that. like all day with that. >> Well, yeah, I can. But I'm also like >> Well, yeah, I can. But I'm also like >> Well, yeah, I can. But I'm also like that's so I just think it's stupid. Like that's so I just think it's stupid. Like that's so I just think it's stupid. Like if you don't have to carry weight, don't if you don't have to carry weight, don't if you don't have to carry weight, don't carry weight. You know, carry weight. You know, carry weight. You know, >> that's psycho. >> that's psycho. >> that's psycho. >> Do you know this guy, Michael Easter? >> Do you know this guy, Michael Easter? >> Do you know this guy, Michael Easter? >> So, >> So, >> So, >> he lives in Vegas. He's the big ruck >> he lives in Vegas. He's the big ruck >> he lives in Vegas. He's the big ruck guy. guy. guy. >> I just got his contact info. Um, I met a >> I just got his contact info. Um, I met a >> I just got his contact info. Um, I met a mutual friend of his who was like, "You mutual friend of his who was like, "You mutual friend of his who was like, "You guys should connect cuz you're both in guys should connect cuz you're both in guys should connect cuz you're both in Vegas." Yeah. I think I'm totally into Vegas." Yeah. I think I'm totally into Vegas." Yeah. I think I'm totally into most of what he writes, but I'm like, most of what he writes, but I'm like, most of what he writes, but I'm like, "Wing? I don't really get it." "Wing? I don't really get it." "Wing? I don't really get it." >> Awesome. What say you, my friend? >> Awesome. What say you, my friend? >> Awesome. What say you, my friend? >> So, Alex Hunold is the greatest rock >> So, Alex Hunold is the greatest rock >> So, Alex Hunold is the greatest rock climber of all time in the human world. climber of all time in the human world. climber of all time in the human world. But if you expand that out to all But if you expand that out to all But if you expand that out to all different animals, he's not good. different animals, he's not good. different animals, he's not good. There's plenty of other primates that There's plenty of other primates that There's plenty of other primates that would just kick that guy's ass going up. would just kick that guy's ass going up. would just kick that guy's ass going up. >> Spicy tank. >> Spicy tank. >> Spicy tank. >> Yeah. Just kick his ass. But with >> Yeah. Just kick his ass. But with >> Yeah. Just kick his ass. But with rocking, rocking, rocking, the greatest human rucker is the the greatest human rucker is the the greatest human rucker is the greatest animal rucker in the entire greatest animal rucker in the entire greatest animal rucker in the entire world. And that's because humans are world. And that's because humans are world. And that's because humans are unique in that we evolved to carry unique in that we evolved to carry unique in that we evolved to carry weight for distance. So there's no other weight for distance. So there's no other weight for distance. So there's no other mammal that can pick up a load and carry mammal that can pick up a load and carry mammal that can pick up a load and carry it a significantly far distance. So that it a significantly far distance. So that it a significantly far distance. So that act, this act of carrying weight, it act, this act of carrying weight, it act, this act of carrying weight, it really does make us unique among all really does make us unique among all really does make us unique among all other species. So I would turn that back other species. So I would turn that back other species. So I would turn that back to him and say, well, if you look at the to him and say, well, if you look at the to him and say, well, if you look at the grand scheme of time and space, humans grand scheme of time and space, humans grand scheme of time and space, humans have been carrying weight to survive and have been carrying weight to survive and have been carrying weight to survive and do it better than they ever have do it better than they ever have do it better than they ever have climbing up rocks. climbing up rocks. climbing up rocks. >> Before we close the chapter on Alex, uh, >> Before we close the chapter on Alex, uh, >> Before we close the chapter on Alex, uh, did you guys ever connect? did you guys ever connect? did you guys ever connect? >> We did not connect. We texted um, we've >> We did not connect. We texted um, we've >> We did not connect. We texted um, we've texted a little bit, but we've never texted a little bit, but we've never texted a little bit, but we've never managed to connect. Well, both of us managed to connect. Well, both of us managed to connect. Well, both of us probably travel until now. I'll have to probably travel until now. I'll have to probably travel until now. I'll have to text him and say this came up. text him and say this came up. text him and say this came up. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> This has to happen. Yeah. I'm going to >> This has to happen. Yeah. I'm going to >> This has to happen. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to make sure that you guys I'm going to make sure that you guys I'm going to make sure that you guys that you guys connect. that you guys connect. that you guys connect. >> I'll make him a deal. >> I'll make him a deal. >> I'll make him a deal. >> Yeah. He's uh >> Yeah. He's uh >> Yeah. He's uh >> I'll climb a rock if he carries a weight >> I'll climb a rock if he carries a weight >> I'll climb a rock if he carries a weight for the sake of carrying a weight. for the sake of carrying a weight. for the sake of carrying a weight. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah. Let's get you two guys together >> Yeah. Let's get you two guys together >> Yeah. Let's get you two guys together and you can you can uh sort of and you can you can uh sort of and you can you can uh sort of cross-pollinate your passions. cross-pollinate your passions. cross-pollinate your passions. >> I love it. Yeah. He seems awesome. He's >> I love it. Yeah. He seems awesome. He's >> I love it. Yeah. He seems awesome. He's really really really >> He's about to scale the Taipei 101 Tower >> He's about to scale the Taipei 101 Tower >> He's about to scale the Taipei 101 Tower live. He's they're going to live stream live. He's they're going to live stream live. He's they're going to live stream it on Netflix at the end of the month. I it on Netflix at the end of the month. I it on Netflix at the end of the month. I think January 29th. think January 29th. think January 29th. >> That's wild. which is nuts. Uh so I >> That's wild. which is nuts. Uh so I >> That's wild. which is nuts. Uh so I think he's pretty focused on that right think he's pretty focused on that right think he's pretty focused on that right now. So might have to wait until now. So might have to wait until now. So might have to wait until >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> after he completes that. >> after he completes that. >> after he completes that. >> Till after that. >> Till after that. >> Till after that. >> On the topic of rucking before we get >> On the topic of rucking before we get >> On the topic of rucking before we get really specific about that. Essentially really specific about that. Essentially really specific about that. Essentially your thesis is that walking with weight your thesis is that walking with weight your thesis is that walking with weight is the most fundamental and is the most fundamental and is the most fundamental and underutilized human exercise providing a underutilized human exercise providing a underutilized human exercise providing a missing link to lasting physical and missing link to lasting physical and missing link to lasting physical and mental wellness. And if there's a mental wellness. And if there's a mental wellness. And if there's a correlary to that, it's that this is one correlary to that, it's that this is one correlary to that, it's that this is one behavior or activity that can help the behavior or activity that can help the behavior or activity that can help the human animal attune their lives to the human animal attune their lives to the human animal attune their lives to the ancient rhythms that uh you know over ancient rhythms that uh you know over ancient rhythms that uh you know over over time have kind of shaped humanity. over time have kind of shaped humanity. over time have kind of shaped humanity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is that a fair >> Is that a fair >> Is that a fair >> Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. >> Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. >> Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. Like I said u moments ago, humans evolve Like I said u moments ago, humans evolve Like I said u moments ago, humans evolve to pick up weight and move it for to pick up weight and move it for to pick up weight and move it for distance. So once we we evolved from distance. So once we we evolved from distance. So once we we evolved from primates came [clears throat] out of the primates came [clears throat] out of the primates came [clears throat] out of the trees um there was actually what led to trees um there was actually what led to trees um there was actually what led to the fact that humans can walk on 2 feet the fact that humans can walk on 2 feet the fact that humans can walk on 2 feet in the first place is there was all this in the first place is there was all this in the first place is there was all this climate change happening in the jungle climate change happening in the jungle climate change happening in the jungle like 6 million years ago and the like 6 million years ago and the like 6 million years ago and the primates that could go longer distances primates that could go longer distances primates that could go longer distances uh were able to find more food and uh were able to find more food and uh were able to find more food and survive cuz it was like pushing out survive cuz it was like pushing out survive cuz it was like pushing out fruit. So fruit became harder to find. fruit. So fruit became harder to find. fruit. So fruit became harder to find. And so slowly but surely, natural And so slowly but surely, natural And so slowly but surely, natural selection basically favored these selection basically favored these selection basically favored these primates that could walk on two feet primates that could walk on two feet primates that could walk on two feet because it was a lot more efficient. And because it was a lot more efficient. And because it was a lot more efficient. And then once we got up onto two feet, all then once we got up onto two feet, all then once we got up onto two feet, all of a sudden we have these free hands and of a sudden we have these free hands and of a sudden we have these free hands and all of a sudden we can start carrying all of a sudden we can start carrying all of a sudden we can start carrying stuff. And humanity really exploded stuff. And humanity really exploded stuff. And humanity really exploded after that cuz we could take tools into after that cuz we could take tools into after that cuz we could take tools into the unknown. We could use our hands to the unknown. We could use our hands to the unknown. We could use our hands to manipulate things, create tools, all manipulate things, create tools, all manipulate things, create tools, all these different things. So, it's really these different things. So, it's really these different things. So, it's really kind of the foundation when you look at kind of the foundation when you look at kind of the foundation when you look at like again what are humans physically like again what are humans physically like again what are humans physically good at and unique at? It's covering good at and unique at? It's covering good at and unique at? It's covering long distances on two feet often while long distances on two feet often while long distances on two feet often while carrying weight. And I think one of the carrying weight. And I think one of the carrying weight. And I think one of the big points of this book is that when you big points of this book is that when you big points of this book is that when you look at fitness today, look at fitness today, look at fitness today, plenty of people run. Plenty of people plenty of people run. Plenty of people plenty of people run. Plenty of people go to the gym and lift weights. We have go to the gym and lift weights. We have go to the gym and lift weights. We have cycling. We have all these things. Um, cycling. We have all these things. Um, cycling. We have all these things. Um, but not many people carry weight as a but not many people carry weight as a but not many people carry weight as a form of fitness and physical activity. form of fitness and physical activity. form of fitness and physical activity. [clears throat] And so my case is all [clears throat] And so my case is all [clears throat] And so my case is all those other things are great. I'm not those other things are great. I'm not those other things are great. I'm not saying trying to say that rocking is the saying trying to say that rocking is the saying trying to say that rocking is the only thing that a person should do, but only thing that a person should do, but only thing that a person should do, but I am saying, hey, we've kind of missed I am saying, hey, we've kind of missed I am saying, hey, we've kind of missed the boat on this thing that we're really the boat on this thing that we're really the boat on this thing that we're really good at and it has a ton of benefits good at and it has a ton of benefits good at and it has a ton of benefits which we can get into. And so I think which we can get into. And so I think which we can get into. And so I think maybe try putting it back in and see maybe try putting it back in and see maybe try putting it back in and see what happens. what happens. what happens. >> Mhm. The evolutionary aspect of this is >> Mhm. The evolutionary aspect of this is >> Mhm. The evolutionary aspect of this is super interesting. Um, for many years super interesting. Um, for many years super interesting. Um, for many years probably, uh, you know, with the probably, uh, you know, with the probably, uh, you know, with the publication of Born to Run, it entered publication of Born to Run, it entered publication of Born to Run, it entered the mainstream consciousness. this idea the mainstream consciousness. this idea the mainstream consciousness. this idea that we were born to run. Um, and that that we were born to run. Um, and that that we were born to run. Um, and that tracks back to persistent hunting and tracks back to persistent hunting and tracks back to persistent hunting and you know, all of these things that you know, all of these things that you know, all of these things that you're referencing. You're not you're referencing. You're not you're referencing. You're not completely rewriting that. You're you're completely rewriting that. You're you're completely rewriting that. You're you're but you are kind of revisiting it to but you are kind of revisiting it to but you are kind of revisiting it to supplement it with the this thing that supplement it with the this thing that supplement it with the this thing that got missed, which is yes, we're born to got missed, which is yes, we're born to got missed, which is yes, we're born to run, but we're even better at covering run, but we're even better at covering run, but we're even better at covering great distances with loadbearing weight. great distances with loadbearing weight. great distances with loadbearing weight. and and that is really essentially you and and that is really essentially you and and that is really essentially you know what advanced uh humanity from the know what advanced uh humanity from the know what advanced uh humanity from the caves into building civilizations and caves into building civilizations and caves into building civilizations and this gets missed in the whole this gets missed in the whole this gets missed in the whole conversation around kind of holistic conversation around kind of holistic conversation around kind of holistic well-being. well-being. well-being. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As a practice that is fundamental to you >> As a practice that is fundamental to you >> As a practice that is fundamental to you know kind of our DNA. know kind of our DNA. know kind of our DNA. >> So my aha moment for this is um I'm >> So my aha moment for this is um I'm >> So my aha moment for this is um I'm familiar with the bornto run paper which familiar with the bornto run paper which familiar with the bornto run paper which was in nature I think in 2004. It's by was in nature I think in 2004. It's by was in nature I think in 2004. It's by this uh anthropologist Dan Lieberman. this uh anthropologist Dan Lieberman. this uh anthropologist Dan Lieberman. Then the Born to Run book comes out and Then the Born to Run book comes out and Then the Born to Run book comes out and it sort of makes this argument that it sort of makes this argument that it sort of makes this argument that humans evolve for long-distance running. humans evolve for long-distance running. humans evolve for long-distance running. And the reason um that we did is we And the reason um that we did is we And the reason um that we did is we would use long-distance running to hunt. would use long-distance running to hunt. would use long-distance running to hunt. So in the heat in Africa, we would run So in the heat in Africa, we would run So in the heat in Africa, we would run down animals until they basically uh down animals until they basically uh down animals until they basically uh fell over from heat exhaustion and then fell over from heat exhaustion and then fell over from heat exhaustion and then we would spear them, right? And this we would spear them, right? And this we would spear them, right? And this would happen over like 7, 15, 20 miles. would happen over like 7, 15, 20 miles. would happen over like 7, 15, 20 miles. So, what makes humans uh unique is that So, what makes humans uh unique is that So, what makes humans uh unique is that we can cover those long distances, but we can cover those long distances, but we can cover those long distances, but really effectively in the heat really effectively in the heat really effectively in the heat >> because we have this sort of built-in >> because we have this sort of built-in >> because we have this sort of built-in air conditioning system with our sweat. air conditioning system with our sweat. air conditioning system with our sweat. We can basically just tolerate heat more We can basically just tolerate heat more We can basically just tolerate heat more than other animals. So, we chase these than other animals. So, we chase these than other animals. So, we chase these things down until they gas out because things down until they gas out because things down until they gas out because of heat. Spear them. Great. That's how of heat. Spear them. Great. That's how of heat. Spear them. Great. That's how we would hunt an animal. But then what we would hunt an animal. But then what we would hunt an animal. But then what happens once you actually hunt the happens once you actually hunt the happens once you actually hunt the animal? You got to carry it back to animal? You got to carry it back to animal? You got to carry it back to camp. camp. camp. >> Yeah. It's sort of like the next day, >> Yeah. It's sort of like the next day, >> Yeah. It's sort of like the next day, you know, [clears throat] dot dot dot you know, [clears throat] dot dot dot you know, [clears throat] dot dot dot that that got missed in that in that that that got missed in that in that that that got missed in that in that synopsis. synopsis. synopsis. >> Exactly. So, I was out hunting um in the >> Exactly. So, I was out hunting um in the >> Exactly. So, I was out hunting um in the Arctic. This was for my book, The Arctic. This was for my book, The Arctic. This was for my book, The Comfort Crisis. Um we were up there for Comfort Crisis. Um we were up there for Comfort Crisis. Um we were up there for like a month. So, we end up hunting this like a month. So, we end up hunting this like a month. So, we end up hunting this caribou caribou caribou and we have to pack it back to camp and and we have to pack it back to camp and and we have to pack it back to camp and it's like, you know, these things are it's like, you know, these things are it's like, you know, these things are huge. So, my pack has huge. So, my pack has huge. So, my pack has probably 20 pounds of caribou probably 20 pounds of caribou probably 20 pounds of caribou >> in this thing >> in this thing >> in this thing >> and we have to hike it back to our camp >> and we have to hike it back to our camp >> and we have to hike it back to our camp across the tundra. It's about 5 miles. across the tundra. It's about 5 miles. across the tundra. It's about 5 miles. The tundra is, by the way, like the The tundra is, by the way, like the The tundra is, by the way, like the worst thing you could ever walk on. It's worst thing you could ever walk on. It's worst thing you could ever walk on. It's like beach sand basically. It's uphill. like beach sand basically. It's uphill. like beach sand basically. It's uphill. One of the hardest things physically One of the hardest things physically One of the hardest things physically I've ever done. But as I'm doing that, I've ever done. But as I'm doing that, I've ever done. But as I'm doing that, I'm thinking about that idea in the Born I'm thinking about that idea in the Born I'm thinking about that idea in the Born to Run paper like, "Yeah, humans evolved to Run paper like, "Yeah, humans evolved to Run paper like, "Yeah, humans evolved to run so we could hunt." And then yeah, to run so we could hunt." And then yeah, to run so we could hunt." And then yeah, but then we also have to do this but then we also have to do this but then we also have to do this carrying thing. carrying thing. carrying thing. >> Bring it back to the village. >> Bring it back to the village. >> Bring it back to the village. >> Yeah, you got to bring it back to the >> Yeah, you got to bring it back to the >> Yeah, you got to bring it back to the village. And so I start kind of village. And so I start kind of village. And so I start kind of thinking, oh, that's kind of thinking, oh, that's kind of thinking, oh, that's kind of interesting. I wonder what other animals interesting. I wonder what other animals interesting. I wonder what other animals can carry. Well, there's ants, but they can carry. Well, there's ants, but they can carry. Well, there's ants, but they don't go that far. They're also not don't go that far. They're also not don't go that far. They're also not mammals. Well, there's kangaroos, but mammals. Well, there's kangaroos, but mammals. Well, there's kangaroos, but it's only when they're with their young it's only when they're with their young it's only when they're with their young and their pouches. Well, there's horses, and their pouches. Well, there's horses, and their pouches. Well, there's horses, mules, but wait a minute, they can't mules, but wait a minute, they can't mules, but wait a minute, they can't actually carry anything for distance actually carry anything for distance actually carry anything for distance unless we put the weight on them, unless we put the weight on them, unless we put the weight on them, >> right? And I just kind of ran out of >> right? And I just kind of ran out of >> right? And I just kind of ran out of runway effectively. I was like, "Wow, runway effectively. I was like, "Wow, runway effectively. I was like, "Wow, that's actually maybe we're unique that's actually maybe we're unique that's actually maybe we're unique because we can carry weight for because we can carry weight for because we can carry weight for distance." So then I got home and distance." So then I got home and distance." So then I got home and background is I'm a journalist. So I background is I'm a journalist. So I background is I'm a journalist. So I start reading papers, talking to start reading papers, talking to start reading papers, talking to researchers and just sort of became this researchers and just sort of became this researchers and just sort of became this rabbit hole of walking with weight that rabbit hole of walking with weight that rabbit hole of walking with weight that I went down. I went down. I went down. >> And you ended up going to visit Daniel >> And you ended up going to visit Daniel >> And you ended up going to visit Daniel Lieberman to discuss this very thing. Lieberman to discuss this very thing. Lieberman to discuss this very thing. >> Yeah. Visited him at Harvard. Um and he >> Yeah. Visited him at Harvard. Um and he >> Yeah. Visited him at Harvard. Um and he is the guy who really found the whole is the guy who really found the whole is the guy who really found the whole born to run thesis. born to run thesis. born to run thesis. And when I brought up the carrying And when I brought up the carrying And when I brought up the carrying thing, he was like, "Yeah, that's we're thing, he was like, "Yeah, that's we're thing, he was like, "Yeah, that's we're we're unique for that as well." And he, we're unique for that as well." And he, we're unique for that as well." And he, you know, he pointed out for all of you know, he pointed out for all of you know, he pointed out for all of time, humans were carrying often. This time, humans were carrying often. This time, humans were carrying often. This could be our kids because we had to could be our kids because we had to could be our kids because we had to carry them around, right? Humans take a carry them around, right? Humans take a carry them around, right? Humans take a long time to develop compared to other long time to develop compared to other long time to develop compared to other animals. Um, anytime you wanted water, animals. Um, anytime you wanted water, animals. Um, anytime you wanted water, like today, you just flick on the faucet like today, you just flick on the faucet like today, you just flick on the faucet and water comes out. It's like great. and water comes out. It's like great. and water comes out. It's like great. But in the past you would have had to But in the past you would have had to But in the past you would have had to walk to the water source and then you walk to the water source and then you walk to the water source and then you have to carry that all the way back to have to carry that all the way back to have to carry that all the way back to your village. So we are constantly your village. So we are constantly your village. So we are constantly caring and that really shaped us. And caring and that really shaped us. And caring and that really shaped us. And when you look at what it does to the when you look at what it does to the when you look at what it does to the human body, I think there's a lot of uh human body, I think there's a lot of uh human body, I think there's a lot of uh benefits that are unique to caring that benefits that are unique to caring that benefits that are unique to caring that you don't necessarily get from running you don't necessarily get from running you don't necessarily get from running or lifting weights alone. Before we go or lifting weights alone. Before we go or lifting weights alone. Before we go further, let's define our terms a little further, let's define our terms a little further, let's define our terms a little bit. Like what is rucking? What does bit. Like what is rucking? What does bit. Like what is rucking? What does that mean? that mean? that mean? >> So rocking I would say is uh walking >> So rocking I would say is uh walking >> So rocking I would say is uh walking with weight in a backpack or a weight with weight in a backpack or a weight with weight in a backpack or a weight vest. Now I have started to use more the vest. Now I have started to use more the vest. Now I have started to use more the term walking with weight and I'll tell term walking with weight and I'll tell term walking with weight and I'll tell you why that is is because the term you why that is is because the term you why that is is because the term rucking came out of the military. So rucking came out of the military. So rucking came out of the military. So back about 400 years ago um German back about 400 years ago um German back about 400 years ago um German hunters were calling the packs that they hunters were calling the packs that they hunters were calling the packs that they would hunt with uh rucks sacks. would hunt with uh rucks sacks. would hunt with uh rucks sacks. So that term sort of held for backpacks So that term sort of held for backpacks So that term sort of held for backpacks that would be used for let's say rougher that would be used for let's say rougher that would be used for let's say rougher pastimes, your hunting, uh, warfare, pastimes, your hunting, uh, warfare, pastimes, your hunting, uh, warfare, whatever it is. And the military adopted whatever it is. And the military adopted whatever it is. And the military adopted the term to be the a rucks sack was what the term to be the a rucks sack was what the term to be the a rucks sack was what you kept your, you know, gear in if you kept your, you know, gear in if you kept your, you know, gear in if you're a military member. And marching you're a military member. And marching you're a military member. And marching with your weighted rucks sack was the with your weighted rucks sack was the with your weighted rucks sack was the key form of training. It always has been key form of training. It always has been key form of training. It always has been for militaries throughout time is just for militaries throughout time is just for militaries throughout time is just marching with your gear on. Um, so they marching with your gear on. Um, so they marching with your gear on. Um, so they started to call it rucking. Um, the term started to call it rucking. Um, the term started to call it rucking. Um, the term sort of took off for the act. But when I sort of took off for the act. But when I sort of took off for the act. But when I started to use the term around say my started to use the term around say my started to use the term around say my mom or my wife mom or my wife mom or my wife >> moms. Yeah. >> moms. Yeah. >> moms. Yeah. >> They Google rucking and what do they >> They Google rucking and what do they >> They Google rucking and what do they get? They get these soldiers with these get? They get these soldiers with these get? They get these soldiers with these like like like >> 15 pound back special operator in these >> 15 pound back special operator in these >> 15 pound back special operator in these vests. vests. vests. >> Yeah. And so I was like, okay, well >> Yeah. And so I was like, okay, well >> Yeah. And so I was like, okay, well that's a little bit of a turnoff because that's a little bit of a turnoff because that's a little bit of a turnoff because the term rocking has taken on a really the term rocking has taken on a really the term rocking has taken on a really military bent, I would say. And so I've military bent, I would say. And so I've military bent, I would say. And so I've started to shift into walking with started to shift into walking with started to shift into walking with weight to make it a little more weight to make it a little more weight to make it a little more approachable and not as scary. approachable and not as scary. approachable and not as scary. >> The added irony being that uh walking >> The added irony being that uh walking >> The added irony being that uh walking with weight is something that was with weight is something that was with weight is something that was pioneered by the mothers. It's the pioneered by the mothers. It's the pioneered by the mothers. It's the mothers that are carrying the children mothers that are carrying the children mothers that are carrying the children and you know carrying the water on their and you know carrying the water on their and you know carrying the water on their heads back from the well and all of heads back from the well and all of heads back from the well and all of this. I think there you know a lot of this. I think there you know a lot of this. I think there you know a lot of walking with weight. there's a lot of uh walking with weight. there's a lot of uh walking with weight. there's a lot of uh gratitude and thanks that have to be gratitude and thanks that have to be gratitude and thanks that have to be given to you know the the women and the given to you know the the women and the given to you know the the women and the mothers for this practice or you know mothers for this practice or you know mothers for this practice or you know the fact that it has become part of our the fact that it has become part of our the fact that it has become part of our humanity I think humanity I think humanity I think >> totally I mean backpacks or carrying >> totally I mean backpacks or carrying >> totally I mean backpacks or carrying packs they were invented by women for packs they were invented by women for packs they were invented by women for carrying babies so before that invention carrying babies so before that invention carrying babies so before that invention moms are carrying babies around all the moms are carrying babies around all the moms are carrying babies around all the time in their arms and so you only have time in their arms and so you only have time in their arms and so you only have one free hand the whole time so once um one free hand the whole time so once um one free hand the whole time so once um and this happened a very long time ago and this happened a very long time ago and this happened a very long time ago Once women created carrying slings and Once women created carrying slings and Once women created carrying slings and packs for babies, all of a sudden you packs for babies, all of a sudden you packs for babies, all of a sudden you have the baby close to you, so it's have the baby close to you, so it's have the baby close to you, so it's safe, but now you have two free hands. safe, but now you have two free hands. safe, but now you have two free hands. And so that really expanded the And so that really expanded the And so that really expanded the productivity of the tribe because now productivity of the tribe because now productivity of the tribe because now you have someone who can gather food as you have someone who can gather food as you have someone who can gather food as they're also tending to a child. And they're also tending to a child. And they're also tending to a child. And humanity kind of exploded from there. humanity kind of exploded from there. humanity kind of exploded from there. And then of course the next logical step And then of course the next logical step And then of course the next logical step is well, if we can carry a kid in these is well, if we can carry a kid in these is well, if we can carry a kid in these things, what else could we carry in things, what else could we carry in things, what else could we carry in these things? And then you start putting these things? And then you start putting these things? And then you start putting food in them. Then you then the hunters food in them. Then you then the hunters food in them. Then you then the hunters of the tribe go, "Well, we could carry of the tribe go, "Well, we could carry of the tribe go, "Well, we could carry some meat in these. We could carry other some meat in these. We could carry other some meat in these. We could carry other tools." And just sort of took off from tools." And just sort of took off from tools." And just sort of took off from there. From a health perspective, give there. From a health perspective, give there. From a health perspective, give me the reasons why uh rucking is is me the reasons why uh rucking is is me the reasons why uh rucking is is something you're you're you're so something you're you're you're so something you're you're you're so bullish on compared to hiking, jogging, bullish on compared to hiking, jogging, bullish on compared to hiking, jogging, or running. To answer Alex's question, or running. To answer Alex's question, or running. To answer Alex's question, like why not just run? like why not just run? like why not just run? So when it comes to why not just run, So when it comes to why not just run, So when it comes to why not just run, I'll make two key points. Uh the first I'll make two key points. Uh the first I'll make two key points. Uh the first would be injuries. would be injuries. would be injuries. So the data on running injuries is all So the data on running injuries is all So the data on running injuries is all over the place. There's one famous study over the place. There's one famous study over the place. There's one famous study that found that uh 20 to I believe it's that found that uh 20 to I believe it's that found that uh 20 to I believe it's 79% of runners get injured in a year. 79% of runners get injured in a year. 79% of runners get injured in a year. That's really high. And I think anyone That's really high. And I think anyone That's really high. And I think anyone who's listening to this that has ever who's listening to this that has ever who's listening to this that has ever run, I'm sure you've been injured by run, I'm sure you've been injured by run, I'm sure you've been injured by running, right? Plenty of people have running, right? Plenty of people have running, right? Plenty of people have bad news for running. But when you look bad news for running. But when you look bad news for running. But when you look at uh walking with a weighted pack or a at uh walking with a weighted pack or a at uh walking with a weighted pack or a weight vest, injury rate is way lower. weight vest, injury rate is way lower. weight vest, injury rate is way lower. It's basically a little bit higher than It's basically a little bit higher than It's basically a little bit higher than walking. And walking's injury rate is walking. And walking's injury rate is walking. And walking's injury rate is like 1%. like 1%. like 1%. That said, of course, if you use way too That said, of course, if you use way too That said, of course, if you use way too much weight, then the injury rate goes much weight, then the injury rate goes much weight, then the injury rate goes up. So, in the book, I advocate for up. So, in the book, I advocate for up. So, in the book, I advocate for using weights that are never more than using weights that are never more than using weights that are never more than about 30% of your body weight. Like, I about 30% of your body weight. Like, I about 30% of your body weight. Like, I use 20% of my body weight, not use 20% of my body weight, not use 20% of my body weight, not significant weights. And then the second significant weights. And then the second significant weights. And then the second point as it relates to running that I point as it relates to running that I point as it relates to running that I would make is that rucking mixes would make is that rucking mixes would make is that rucking mixes endurance and strength in one. So, endurance and strength in one. So, endurance and strength in one. So, you're getting endurance because you're you're getting endurance because you're you're getting endurance because you're covering ground, but you're also getting covering ground, but you're also getting covering ground, but you're also getting a strength effect because you have a strength effect because you have a strength effect because you have weight on your body and you have to weight on your body and you have to weight on your body and you have to carry that weight. So, you get a more carry that weight. So, you get a more carry that weight. So, you get a more muscular effect as you're getting your muscular effect as you're getting your muscular effect as you're getting your cardio. You're sort of combining those cardio. You're sort of combining those cardio. You're sort of combining those two things into one. So, if you're two things into one. So, if you're two things into one. So, if you're pressed for time, pressed for time, pressed for time, to me, it's like, all right, this is a to me, it's like, all right, this is a to me, it's like, all right, this is a pretty good option. pretty good option. pretty good option. >> And I'll also add, I'm not saying people >> And I'll also add, I'm not saying people >> And I'll also add, I'm not saying people shouldn't run, people shouldn't lift, shouldn't run, people shouldn't lift, shouldn't run, people shouldn't lift, people shouldn't do whatever. My greater people shouldn't do whatever. My greater people shouldn't do whatever. My greater argument is that walking with weight is argument is that walking with weight is argument is that walking with weight is incredibly effective and useful for incredibly effective and useful for incredibly effective and useful for people. And so, how can we weave it into people. And so, how can we weave it into people. And so, how can we weave it into all the other things you're doing? I all the other things you're doing? I all the other things you're doing? I think I heard you say that when you're think I heard you say that when you're think I heard you say that when you're running, you're exerting running, you're exerting running, you're exerting uh 12 times your body weight in force uh 12 times your body weight in force uh 12 times your body weight in force with every with every time you you land, with every with every time you you land, with every with every time you you land, right? And it's 3x when you're walking. right? And it's 3x when you're walking. right? And it's 3x when you're walking. When you're rucking, obviously it's When you're rucking, obviously it's When you're rucking, obviously it's going to depend upon how much weight you going to depend upon how much weight you going to depend upon how much weight you put in your rucks sack, your backpack, put in your rucks sack, your backpack, put in your rucks sack, your backpack, or what's on your vest. Like in the in or what's on your vest. Like in the in or what's on your vest. Like in the in between, you have running on one end of between, you have running on one end of between, you have running on one end of the spectrum, you have walking on the the spectrum, you have walking on the the spectrum, you have walking on the other, you know, rucking is somewhere in other, you know, rucking is somewhere in other, you know, rucking is somewhere in the middle. From kind of a strength and the middle. From kind of a strength and the middle. From kind of a strength and calorie burn perspective, calorie burn perspective, calorie burn perspective, uh what are the what are the differences uh what are the what are the differences uh what are the what are the differences there? there? there? >> Yeah, so generally per if you think >> Yeah, so generally per if you think >> Yeah, so generally per if you think about it per mile, that's a good way to about it per mile, that's a good way to about it per mile, that's a good way to sort of measure this. Um, sort of measure this. Um, sort of measure this. Um, rucking will burn more calories per mile rucking will burn more calories per mile rucking will burn more calories per mile than running. than running. than running. So, the rate is anywhere from 20 to you So, the rate is anywhere from 20 to you So, the rate is anywhere from 20 to you can go all the way up to like 200% more can go all the way up to like 200% more can go all the way up to like 200% more just depending on what the load and just depending on what the load and just depending on what the load and terrain is. But generally, you will burn terrain is. But generally, you will burn terrain is. But generally, you will burn uh more calories per mile compared to uh more calories per mile compared to uh more calories per mile compared to running. And then lifting. People running. And then lifting. People running. And then lifting. People generally overestimate how many calories generally overestimate how many calories generally overestimate how many calories lifting actually burns because you're lifting actually burns because you're lifting actually burns because you're going, you know, if you do three sets of going, you know, if you do three sets of going, you know, if you do three sets of 10 reps and you do eight different 10 reps and you do eight different 10 reps and you do eight different exercises, exercises, exercises, >> how much time are you actually >> how much time are you actually >> how much time are you actually exercising? You're like 20 second set, exercising? You're like 20 second set, exercising? You're like 20 second set, I'm going to rest for 2 minutes, another I'm going to rest for 2 minutes, another I'm going to rest for 2 minutes, another 20 second. Like, you're not really 20 second. Like, you're not really 20 second. Like, you're not really burning that many calories, burning that many calories, burning that many calories, >> right? But you're assuming you're going >> right? But you're assuming you're going >> right? But you're assuming you're going to uh you know kind of like at least 85% to uh you know kind of like at least 85% to uh you know kind of like at least 85% of your capacity, you are you know kind of your capacity, you are you know kind of your capacity, you are you know kind of stimulating muscle growth as a result of stimulating muscle growth as a result of stimulating muscle growth as a result of that. It's just a different sort of of that. It's just a different sort of of that. It's just a different sort of thing. thing. thing. >> Yeah. I think the point of uh lifting is >> Yeah. I think the point of uh lifting is >> Yeah. I think the point of uh lifting is more for strength and muscle rather than more for strength and muscle rather than more for strength and muscle rather than calorie burn. But I just like to point calorie burn. But I just like to point calorie burn. But I just like to point that out because some people will that out because some people will that out because some people will >> like, oh, I got a killer calorie burning >> like, oh, I got a killer calorie burning >> like, oh, I got a killer calorie burning weightlifting workout in today and it's weightlifting workout in today and it's weightlifting workout in today and it's like you maybe burn like 150 200 like you maybe burn like 150 200 like you maybe burn like 150 200 calories. Like don't eat that back. calories. Like don't eat that back. calories. Like don't eat that back. A big piece of this and and maybe the A big piece of this and and maybe the A big piece of this and and maybe the most underappreciated aspect of it is most underappreciated aspect of it is most underappreciated aspect of it is the fact that it it's it's putting you the fact that it it's it's putting you the fact that it it's it's putting you out in nature in a dynamic environment. out in nature in a dynamic environment. out in nature in a dynamic environment. And there's not only health benefits to And there's not only health benefits to And there's not only health benefits to this, uh, you know, physical benefits to this, uh, you know, physical benefits to this, uh, you know, physical benefits to this, but also, uh, cognitive, like this, but also, uh, cognitive, like this, but also, uh, cognitive, like brain health benefits to being out on a brain health benefits to being out on a brain health benefits to being out on a dynamic landscape where you're being dynamic landscape where you're being dynamic landscape where you're being stimulated in a way that you're just not stimulated in a way that you're just not stimulated in a way that you're just not when you're lifting weights in a gym or when you're lifting weights in a gym or when you're lifting weights in a gym or you're running on a treadmill. you're running on a treadmill. you're running on a treadmill. >> Absolutely. I'll give props to a >> Absolutely. I'll give props to a >> Absolutely. I'll give props to a researcher. He's at USC now. His name's researcher. He's at USC now. His name's researcher. He's at USC now. His name's David Reichlin. Awesome dude. David Reichlin. Awesome dude. David Reichlin. Awesome dude. He's basically looked at um He's basically looked at um He's basically looked at um how your mind I'm simplifying this but how your mind I'm simplifying this but how your mind I'm simplifying this but how your mind works when you're out in how your mind works when you're out in how your mind works when you're out in the an environment that you have to the an environment that you have to the an environment that you have to navigate effectively. Right? So if navigate effectively. Right? So if navigate effectively. Right? So if you're outside and you're having to you're outside and you're having to you're outside and you're having to figure out where you're going, you're figure out where you're going, you're figure out where you're going, you're taxing your spatial navigation. You're taxing your spatial navigation. You're taxing your spatial navigation. You're having to take in all these things having to take in all these things having to take in all these things happening around you. Um, and if you're happening around you. Um, and if you're happening around you. Um, and if you're on a trail, it just ups the ante even on a trail, it just ups the ante even on a trail, it just ups the ante even more because now you're going, "All more because now you're going, "All more because now you're going, "All right, how's my foot placement with right, how's my foot placement with right, how's my foot placement with every step?" Right? Is there a rock here every step?" Right? Is there a rock here every step?" Right? Is there a rock here or whatever it might be? And so that um or whatever it might be? And so that um or whatever it might be? And so that um sort of mental work that happens when sort of mental work that happens when sort of mental work that happens when you're out in an open environment having you're out in an open environment having you're out in an open environment having to run, especially if it's somewhere to run, especially if it's somewhere to run, especially if it's somewhere new. I'll put a point in there saying new. I'll put a point in there saying new. I'll put a point in there saying new environments are better. That new environments are better. That new environments are better. That navigation is really important for uh navigation is really important for uh navigation is really important for uh brain health. So humans in addition to brain health. So humans in addition to brain health. So humans in addition to walking with weight, we also evolve to walking with weight, we also evolve to walking with weight, we also evolve to navigate. We're navigating all the time. navigate. We're navigating all the time. navigate. We're navigating all the time. That doesn't happen as much today for a That doesn't happen as much today for a That doesn't happen as much today for a few reasons. Uh one, we kind of do the few reasons. Uh one, we kind of do the few reasons. Uh one, we kind of do the same thing every day, so we're just same thing every day, so we're just same thing every day, so we're just familiar with everything. Two, when we familiar with everything. Two, when we familiar with everything. Two, when we do go to a new place, like I got to this do go to a new place, like I got to this do go to a new place, like I got to this uh lovely new studio, we just pop it in uh lovely new studio, we just pop it in uh lovely new studio, we just pop it in Google Maps. Don't have to figure it Google Maps. Don't have to figure it Google Maps. Don't have to figure it out. You just follow the blue dot out. You just follow the blue dot out. You just follow the blue dot >> and we lose something because that's >> and we lose something because that's >> and we lose something because that's like a very specific uh part of our like a very specific uh part of our like a very specific uh part of our brain that needs to be worked. And brain that needs to be worked. And brain that needs to be worked. And there's evidence from there was a study there's evidence from there was a study there's evidence from there was a study I think it was conducted in the UK. I'm I think it was conducted in the UK. I'm I think it was conducted in the UK. I'm going to forget the specifics because going to forget the specifics because going to forget the specifics because I'm I write down all the specifics in I'm I write down all the specifics in I'm I write down all the specifics in the book and then they just go out. But the book and then they just go out. But the book and then they just go out. But um it looked at about 400 different jobs um it looked at about 400 different jobs um it looked at about 400 different jobs and it looked at their risk of um and it looked at their risk of um and it looked at their risk of um Alzheimer's and dementia. And the jobs Alzheimer's and dementia. And the jobs Alzheimer's and dementia. And the jobs with the lowest rates of Alzheimer's and with the lowest rates of Alzheimer's and with the lowest rates of Alzheimer's and dementia were cab drivers and ambulance dementia were cab drivers and ambulance dementia were cab drivers and ambulance drivers. And they think the reason for drivers. And they think the reason for drivers. And they think the reason for that is that these people are constantly that is that these people are constantly that is that these people are constantly having to navigate all these new having to navigate all these new having to navigate all these new environments. So they're working this environments. So they're working this environments. So they're working this very specific part of their brain that very specific part of their brain that very specific part of their brain that evolved for navigation that most jobs evolved for navigation that most jobs evolved for navigation that most jobs are not working. are not working. are not working. >> That's fascinating. >> That's fascinating. >> That's fascinating. >> Yeah. So I think there is a case like to >> Yeah. So I think there is a case like to >> Yeah. So I think there is a case like to me the takeaway for me practically is me the takeaway for me practically is me the takeaway for me practically is if you're going to go exercise outside if you're going to go exercise outside if you're going to go exercise outside whether it be on your bike, whether whether it be on your bike, whether whether it be on your bike, whether you're rocking, whether you're running. you're rocking, whether you're running. you're rocking, whether you're running. Sometimes you should go into new Sometimes you should go into new Sometimes you should go into new environments where you have to figure environments where you have to figure environments where you have to figure things out. things out. things out. >> Like I'm just going to run out on this >> Like I'm just going to run out on this >> Like I'm just going to run out on this trail. I've never been there before. I'm trail. I've never been there before. I'm trail. I've never been there before. I'm going to try and find my way. I'm going going to try and find my way. I'm going going to try and find my way. I'm going to do this loop. And guess what? I'm to do this loop. And guess what? I'm to do this loop. And guess what? I'm probably going to get lost for a second. probably going to get lost for a second. probably going to get lost for a second. But that's the entire point because I'm But that's the entire point because I'm But that's the entire point because I'm going to have to figure out, okay, well, going to have to figure out, okay, well, going to have to figure out, okay, well, how do I get back to where I started? how do I get back to where I started? how do I get back to where I started? But you can also, if you want to be even But you can also, if you want to be even But you can also, if you want to be even lazier about it, even just driving, lazier about it, even just driving, lazier about it, even just driving, don't use Google Maps all the time. don't use Google Maps all the time. don't use Google Maps all the time. Like, you go, "Okay, I need to go to Like, you go, "Okay, I need to go to Like, you go, "Okay, I need to go to this restaurant uh in Las Vegas. I live this restaurant uh in Las Vegas. I live this restaurant uh in Las Vegas. I live in Las Vegas. I know it's in Chinatown. in Las Vegas. I know it's in Chinatown. in Las Vegas. I know it's in Chinatown. Okay, I can kind of get I know how to Okay, I can kind of get I know how to Okay, I can kind of get I know how to get to Chinatown pretty much. And then get to Chinatown pretty much. And then get to Chinatown pretty much. And then I'm going to have to pick up all these I'm going to have to pick up all these I'm going to have to pick up all these cues along the way rather than just cues along the way rather than just cues along the way rather than just offloading offloading offloading >> this part of my brain to Google Maps. >> this part of my brain to Google Maps. >> this part of my brain to Google Maps. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I had to do this, I'll say. And we >> And I had to do this, I'll say. And we >> And I had to do this, I'll say. And we >> Yeah, this is like a It's like, how dare >> Yeah, this is like a It's like, how dare >> Yeah, this is like a It's like, how dare you? [laughter] You know, these you? [laughter] You know, these you? [laughter] You know, these beautiful navigations in our cars now, beautiful navigations in our cars now, beautiful navigations in our cars now, you know. you know. you know. >> I know. I know. And I had to I'll tell >> I know. I know. And I had to I'll tell >> I know. I know. And I had to I'll tell you, man, for another book I'm working you, man, for another book I'm working you, man, for another book I'm working on, I did this really long through hike on, I did this really long through hike on, I did this really long through hike um through southern Utah. And it's not a um through southern Utah. And it's not a um through southern Utah. And it's not a trail, it's a route. So, you have some trail, it's a route. So, you have some trail, it's a route. So, you have some general directions of where to go, but general directions of where to go, but general directions of where to go, but you got to figure stuff out. You're just you got to figure stuff out. You're just you got to figure stuff out. You're just out in the open desert going through out in the open desert going through out in the open desert going through canyons, across mountains, canyons, across mountains, canyons, across mountains, >> and the navigation element, >> and the navigation element, >> and the navigation element, that mental component of that. And we're that mental component of that. And we're that mental component of that. And we're hiking 25 miles average a day with hiking 25 miles average a day with hiking 25 miles average a day with weight on our backs. That was almost as weight on our backs. That was almost as weight on our backs. That was almost as hard as the physical stuff. hard as the physical stuff. hard as the physical stuff. >> It just adds this extra layer of >> It just adds this extra layer of >> It just adds this extra layer of complexity, of challenge. I would end complexity, of challenge. I would end complexity, of challenge. I would end the days just physically fried, mentally the days just physically fried, mentally the days just physically fried, mentally fried. But it was very satisfying fried. But it was very satisfying fried. But it was very satisfying because it's just not a part of our because it's just not a part of our because it's just not a part of our brains we work anymore. And there's brains we work anymore. And there's brains we work anymore. And there's something really there's something something really there's something something really there's something really satisfying about it because you really satisfying about it because you really satisfying about it because you have like a clear mission. I need to get have like a clear mission. I need to get have like a clear mission. I need to get here and I'm going to use my brain to here and I'm going to use my brain to here and I'm going to use my brain to figure that out. figure that out. figure that out. >> There's a sport called orientering >> There's a sport called orientering >> There's a sport called orientering that's all about this, right? It's not a that's all about this, right? It's not a that's all about this, right? It's not a rucking sport, but you never hear about rucking sport, but you never hear about rucking sport, but you never hear about people who do this sport. Maybe it's people who do this sport. Maybe it's people who do this sport. Maybe it's poised for a for a comeback now. Maybe poised for a for a comeback now. Maybe poised for a for a comeback now. Maybe they all got lost. they all got lost. they all got lost. >> Yeah, maybe they did. I mean, ultra >> Yeah, maybe they did. I mean, ultra >> Yeah, maybe they did. I mean, ultra running, you know, there's c there's running, you know, there's c there's running, you know, there's c there's certain ultra like the Barkclays certain ultra like the Barkclays certain ultra like the Barkclays marathon has, you know, an aspect of marathon has, you know, an aspect of marathon has, you know, an aspect of that in it where, you know, orienteering that in it where, you know, orienteering that in it where, you know, orienteering becomes a big piece. But, um, I guess becomes a big piece. But, um, I guess becomes a big piece. But, um, I guess the ultra running world has sort of the ultra running world has sort of the ultra running world has sort of enveloped that that sport on some level. enveloped that that sport on some level. enveloped that that sport on some level. But there was a pure sport called But there was a pure sport called But there was a pure sport called orientering where it's like you you have orientering where it's like you you have orientering where it's like you you have a little compass and a map and you got a little compass and a map and you got a little compass and a map and you got to figure out how to get from where you to figure out how to get from where you to figure out how to get from where you are to the other place. are to the other place. are to the other place. >> Yeah, I think people still do it. >> Yeah, I think people still do it. >> Yeah, I think people still do it. There's still like orientering There's still like orientering There's still like orientering >> competitions and organizations. I should >> competitions and organizations. I should >> competitions and organizations. I should I should look into that. I should look into that. I should look into that. >> Yeah, this could be your next thing. >> Yeah, this could be your next thing. >> Yeah, this could be your next thing. >> You and me, we're going to go out in the >> You and me, we're going to go out in the >> You and me, we're going to go out in the woods with a map and a compass and woods with a map and a compass and woods with a map and a compass and figure it out. figure it out. figure it out. >> The other stat that jumped out at me on >> The other stat that jumped out at me on >> The other stat that jumped out at me on this nature aspect um of of rucking or this nature aspect um of of rucking or this nature aspect um of of rucking or just the the process of navigating the just the the process of navigating the just the the process of navigating the outdoors is that when you're when you're outdoors is that when you're when you're outdoors is that when you're when you're on trails as opposed to roads, you're on trails as opposed to roads, you're on trails as opposed to roads, you're burning 28% more calories. burning 28% more calories. burning 28% more calories. >> That was from true. So that it depends, >> That was from true. So that it depends, >> That was from true. So that it depends, right? So that was like an average. I right? So that was like an average. I right? So that was like an average. I think that was from a University of think that was from a University of think that was from a University of Michigan study. It of course depends on Michigan study. It of course depends on Michigan study. It of course depends on the trail. So if you're on like a really the trail. So if you're on like a really the trail. So if you're on like a really flat, you know, perfect like that's just flat, you know, perfect like that's just flat, you know, perfect like that's just nice and sandy, not like that bad, might nice and sandy, not like that bad, might nice and sandy, not like that bad, might be lower than 28%. be lower than 28%. be lower than 28%. >> But if you get on something that is has >> But if you get on something that is has >> But if you get on something that is has a lot of rocks, a lot of challenges, a lot of rocks, a lot of challenges, a lot of rocks, a lot of challenges, then it might be higher than that. And then it might be higher than that. And then it might be higher than that. And that's simply because you're having to that's simply because you're having to that's simply because you're having to put in more effort per step, right? the put in more effort per step, right? the put in more effort per step, right? the ground is a little shakier, more ups, ground is a little shakier, more ups, ground is a little shakier, more ups, more downs, more times where you have to more downs, more times where you have to more downs, more times where you have to sort of side step around things. All all sort of side step around things. All all sort of side step around things. All all that that that >> I'd be curious to know uh how that >> I'd be curious to know uh how that >> I'd be curious to know uh how that breaks down between the the the physical breaks down between the the the physical breaks down between the the the physical exertion aspect of it and just the the exertion aspect of it and just the the exertion aspect of it and just the the brain power required to do that brain power required to do that brain power required to do that navigation. I my instinct would be that navigation. I my instinct would be that navigation. I my instinct would be that it's much more about the brain power it's much more about the brain power it's much more about the brain power piece than it is about the physical piece than it is about the physical piece than it is about the physical aspect of that navigation. aspect of that navigation. aspect of that navigation. >> I don't think that study delineated >> I don't think that study delineated >> I don't think that study delineated between the two, but I will say that between the two, but I will say that between the two, but I will say that tracks with me that just having to think tracks with me that just having to think tracks with me that just having to think about what you're doing. It just makes about what you're doing. It just makes about what you're doing. It just makes it so much it so much it so much >> yeah harder. >> yeah harder. >> yeah harder. >> Our youngest goes to school about a >> Our youngest goes to school about a >> Our youngest goes to school about a 3-hour drive from our home in this tiny 3-hour drive from our home in this tiny 3-hour drive from our home in this tiny little town up high in the mountains. little town up high in the mountains. little town up high in the mountains. [music] So, when we drive her back to [music] So, when we drive her back to [music] So, when we drive her back to school or we pick her up for a break, we school or we pick her up for a break, we school or we pick her up for a break, we could do the drive back and forth in the could do the drive back and forth in the could do the drive back and forth in the same day. But sometimes I like to stay same day. But sometimes I like to stay same day. 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We're so and um scarcity brain. We're so and um scarcity brain. We're so acclimated in our in our modern world acclimated in our in our modern world acclimated in our in our modern world that we compartmentalize exercise as that we compartmentalize exercise as that we compartmentalize exercise as this other thing that we do, you know, this other thing that we do, you know, this other thing that we do, you know, either before or after, you know, we're either before or after, you know, we're either before or after, you know, we're living our life and we do it in these living our life and we do it in these living our life and we do it in these contained environments with fluorescent contained environments with fluorescent contained environments with fluorescent lights, with machines, you know, and in lights, with machines, you know, and in lights, with machines, you know, and in front of televisions and the like. Not front of televisions and the like. Not front of televisions and the like. Not only does that kind of rob us of of of only does that kind of rob us of of of only does that kind of rob us of of of the joy of those human experiences, but the joy of those human experiences, but the joy of those human experiences, but it's also um interfering with maybe some it's also um interfering with maybe some it's also um interfering with maybe some of the most powerful benefits um that we of the most powerful benefits um that we of the most powerful benefits um that we get from these activities when we're get from these activities when we're get from these activities when we're doing them in, you know, unbridled doing them in, you know, unbridled doing them in, you know, unbridled nature. nature. nature. >> I think so because the gym environments >> I think so because the gym environments >> I think so because the gym environments and the treadmill, you're controlling and the treadmill, you're controlling and the treadmill, you're controlling for all these variables, for all these variables, for all these variables, right, that get reinserted when you're right, that get reinserted when you're right, that get reinserted when you're outside. So, we talked about one, the outside. So, we talked about one, the outside. So, we talked about one, the navigation, navigation, navigation, um, but two, you're exposing yourself to um, but two, you're exposing yourself to um, but two, you're exposing yourself to nature, and that comes with a lot of nature, and that comes with a lot of nature, and that comes with a lot of psychological benefits. Um, there's a psychological benefits. Um, there's a psychological benefits. Um, there's a variety of reasons for that, but the variety of reasons for that, but the variety of reasons for that, but the research consistently shows that going research consistently shows that going research consistently shows that going out into nature improves uh, your out into nature improves uh, your out into nature improves uh, your happiness, decreases stress levels, does happiness, decreases stress levels, does happiness, decreases stress levels, does some good things um to your immune some good things um to your immune some good things um to your immune system. Like, all these good things system. Like, all these good things system. Like, all these good things happen when you're out in nature. Two, happen when you're out in nature. Two, happen when you're out in nature. Two, you're also having to deal with the you're also having to deal with the you're also having to deal with the elements. Like now we live at 72 degrees elements. Like now we live at 72 degrees elements. Like now we live at 72 degrees and I think there is a case for getting and I think there is a case for getting and I think there is a case for getting out and exposing yourself to different out and exposing yourself to different out and exposing yourself to different temperature swings, right? Sometimes you temperature swings, right? Sometimes you temperature swings, right? Sometimes you want to be a little too hot, sometimes want to be a little too hot, sometimes want to be a little too hot, sometimes you want to be a little too cold cuz you want to be a little too cold cuz you want to be a little too cold cuz it's like a stimulus that your body has it's like a stimulus that your body has it's like a stimulus that your body has to to figure out. And for me, a lot of to to figure out. And for me, a lot of to to figure out. And for me, a lot of it is mindset, too, especially if you're it is mindset, too, especially if you're it is mindset, too, especially if you're out um on a trail or something. The out um on a trail or something. The out um on a trail or something. The wilderness in nature to me has always wilderness in nature to me has always wilderness in nature to me has always been the greatest teacher because it been the greatest teacher because it been the greatest teacher because it forces you into positions where things forces you into positions where things forces you into positions where things are never going to be perfect and you are never going to be perfect and you are never going to be perfect and you really have to do sort of figure things really have to do sort of figure things really have to do sort of figure things out along the way and just make it work. out along the way and just make it work. out along the way and just make it work. And that to me kind of becomes a lesson And that to me kind of becomes a lesson And that to me kind of becomes a lesson that I can take back into my normal life that I can take back into my normal life that I can take back into my normal life and go, "All right, well, I was on that and go, "All right, well, I was on that and go, "All right, well, I was on that cliff in southern Utah that I had to go cliff in southern Utah that I had to go cliff in southern Utah that I had to go down the canyon and it was a huge pain down the canyon and it was a huge pain down the canyon and it was a huge pain in the ass and it was 100 degrees out in the ass and it was 100 degrees out in the ass and it was 100 degrees out and I did that and I did that and I did that I can probably handle this next Zoom I can probably handle this next Zoom I can probably handle this next Zoom meeting that I'm dreading. I'll be fine. meeting that I'm dreading. I'll be fine. meeting that I'm dreading. I'll be fine. We'll survive. We'll survive. We'll survive. >> Well, the goal is resilience, right? >> Well, the goal is resilience, right? >> Well, the goal is resilience, right? Ultimately, you're building resilience Ultimately, you're building resilience Ultimately, you're building resilience with every one of these experiences that with every one of these experiences that with every one of these experiences that you have. And what's interesting about you have. And what's interesting about you have. And what's interesting about that is is how the resilience that we're that is is how the resilience that we're that is is how the resilience that we're really uh after is sort of uh orthogonal really uh after is sort of uh orthogonal really uh after is sort of uh orthogonal to all of these life hack optimization to all of these life hack optimization to all of these life hack optimization things that we see these days that things that we see these days that things that we see these days that people are you know very into like how people are you know very into like how people are you know very into like how do you think about the distinction or do you think about the distinction or do you think about the distinction or the the contrast between like life the the contrast between like life the the contrast between like life optimization, health optimization, optimization, health optimization, optimization, health optimization, fitness optimization fitness optimization fitness optimization and the true resilience that you know and the true resilience that you know and the true resilience that you know can't be rushed and has to be earned you can't be rushed and has to be earned you can't be rushed and has to be earned you know in the elements. Big picture. To know in the elements. Big picture. To know in the elements. Big picture. To me, me, me, resilience is about resilience is about resilience is about can I accomplish this task or figure can I accomplish this task or figure can I accomplish this task or figure things out when I have fewer resources things out when I have fewer resources things out when I have fewer resources and more is stacked against me. Where it and more is stacked against me. Where it and more is stacked against me. Where it feels like when you look at fitness feels like when you look at fitness feels like when you look at fitness optimization, I can't go on a run unless optimization, I can't go on a run unless optimization, I can't go on a run unless I have my Garmin because then I won't I have my Garmin because then I won't I have my Garmin because then I won't know exactly what my pace and my heart know exactly what my pace and my heart know exactly what my pace and my heart rate and my XYZ is. I can't start my day rate and my XYZ is. I can't start my day rate and my XYZ is. I can't start my day unless I do my 19step morning routine. I unless I do my 19step morning routine. I unless I do my 19step morning routine. I can't. There's a We're inserting a lot can't. There's a We're inserting a lot can't. There's a We're inserting a lot of these practices of these practices of these practices >> that >> that >> that people sometimes go off the rails if people sometimes go off the rails if people sometimes go off the rails if they can't have things perfect. And it they can't have things perfect. And it they can't have things perfect. And it gives you this illusion of control in a gives you this illusion of control in a gives you this illusion of control in a way that you're improving things. Um, way that you're improving things. Um, way that you're improving things. Um, but I don't think it always measurably but I don't think it always measurably but I don't think it always measurably does. And I think if you can strip away does. And I think if you can strip away does. And I think if you can strip away all that and just be a person that can all that and just be a person that can all that and just be a person that can attempt to accomplish things when you attempt to accomplish things when you attempt to accomplish things when you have fewer resources, when the odds are have fewer resources, when the odds are have fewer resources, when the odds are stacked against you, you're going to go stacked against you, you're going to go stacked against you, you're going to go into that abyss and you're going to into that abyss and you're going to into that abyss and you're going to trust yourself. I'm going to figure that trust yourself. I'm going to figure that trust yourself. I'm going to figure that out where you're probably going to learn out where you're probably going to learn out where you're probably going to learn something down there. [clears throat] something down there. [clears throat] something down there. [clears throat] >> And I think a lot of it, a lot of the >> And I think a lot of it, a lot of the >> And I think a lot of it, a lot of the optimization stuff, I mean, I think it optimization stuff, I mean, I think it optimization stuff, I mean, I think it can be good because, you know, there's can be good because, you know, there's can be good because, you know, there's different types of people. Sometimes different types of people. Sometimes different types of people. Sometimes like you get someone who's new to like you get someone who's new to like you get someone who's new to exercise, they want to improve their exercise, they want to improve their exercise, they want to improve their health. like, yeah, give them an aura health. like, yeah, give them an aura health. like, yeah, give them an aura ring so they know how many steps they're ring so they know how many steps they're ring so they know how many steps they're taking. That's great because that taking. That's great because that taking. That's great because that >> having that measurement shows you kind >> having that measurement shows you kind >> having that measurement shows you kind of where you're at, but I think some of of where you're at, but I think some of of where you're at, but I think some of these things can tip into like this these things can tip into like this these things can tip into like this illusion of progress and control that illusion of progress and control that illusion of progress and control that maybe isn't really founded in reality. maybe isn't really founded in reality. maybe isn't really founded in reality. Yeah, it it's not uh a strict binary. Yeah, it it's not uh a strict binary. Yeah, it it's not uh a strict binary. You know, I think they have their place, You know, I think they have their place, You know, I think they have their place, but the the point of them is to develop but the the point of them is to develop but the the point of them is to develop a more intuitive uh you know, integrated a more intuitive uh you know, integrated a more intuitive uh you know, integrated kind of connection with yourself. And if kind of connection with yourself. And if kind of connection with yourself. And if you're outsourcing everything to these you're outsourcing everything to these you're outsourcing everything to these other things, you're missing that other things, you're missing that other things, you're missing that opportunity. Like I I just remember in opportunity. Like I I just remember in opportunity. Like I I just remember in my early swimming days my early swimming days my early swimming days before heart rate monitors and Garmins before heart rate monitors and Garmins before heart rate monitors and Garmins and you know before there was an and you know before there was an and you know before there was an internet and all of that like after a internet and all of that like after a internet and all of that like after a set you know take a heart rate or set you know take a heart rate or set you know take a heart rate or whatever and you start to get to know whatever and you start to get to know whatever and you start to get to know like oh this is when I feel this way my like oh this is when I feel this way my like oh this is when I feel this way my heart rate's probably this you know heart rate's probably this you know heart rate's probably this you know you're making that kind of mental you you're making that kind of mental you you're making that kind of mental you know that mind body connection until know that mind body connection until know that mind body connection until you've done it for a zillion hours and you've done it for a zillion hours and you've done it for a zillion hours and then you know on a repeat of hundreds I then you know on a repeat of hundreds I then you know on a repeat of hundreds I could tell you without looking at a pace could tell you without looking at a pace could tell you without looking at a pace clock like what my split was or what my clock like what my split was or what my clock like what my split was or what my time was because you you just you know time was because you you just you know time was because you you just you know yourself that well. Um and I think these yourself that well. Um and I think these yourself that well. Um and I think these tools are, you know, they're just fancy tools are, you know, they're just fancy tools are, you know, they're just fancy versions of stopwatches and and putting versions of stopwatches and and putting versions of stopwatches and and putting your finger on your neck to figure out your finger on your neck to figure out your finger on your neck to figure out your heart rate, but you should use them your heart rate, but you should use them your heart rate, but you should use them so that you are, you know, developing so that you are, you know, developing so that you are, you know, developing that connection with yourself. But if that connection with yourself. But if that connection with yourself. But if you're missing that part, then you you're missing that part, then you you're missing that part, then you become reliant upon them. You're become reliant upon them. You're become reliant upon them. You're outsourcing everything and that's not outsourcing everything and that's not outsourcing everything and that's not the point, right? like that's moving you the point, right? like that's moving you the point, right? like that's moving you away from the greater goal. But the away from the greater goal. But the away from the greater goal. But the person who doesn't need them or maybe person who doesn't need them or maybe person who doesn't need them or maybe use them and kind of knows all that use them and kind of knows all that use them and kind of knows all that stuff and doesn't need you know then stuff and doesn't need you know then stuff and doesn't need you know then they can go out in the world and they they can go out in the world and they they can go out in the world and they they know like oh I feel this way so I they know like oh I feel this way so I they know like oh I feel this way so I know that this is where you know my know that this is where you know my know that this is where you know my exertion level you know at this phase exertion level you know at this phase exertion level you know at this phase means this and I know that that will means this and I know that that will means this and I know that that will mean I'll need to eat this and have this mean I'll need to eat this and have this mean I'll need to eat this and have this much sleep etc. So you become a much sleep etc. So you become a much sleep etc. So you become a self-contained you know organism. self-contained you know organism. self-contained you know organism. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think you made a great >> Yeah. Yeah. I think you made a great >> Yeah. Yeah. I think you made a great point that there's kind of like this point that there's kind of like this point that there's kind of like this balance where they can be a good on-ramp balance where they can be a good on-ramp balance where they can be a good on-ramp to developing that awareness, but once to developing that awareness, but once to developing that awareness, but once you've developed it, it's like you've developed it, it's like you've developed it, it's like >> you don't really necessarily need it and >> you don't really necessarily need it and >> you don't really necessarily need it and the the danger becomes the the danger becomes the the danger becomes um getting fixated on how the numbers um getting fixated on how the numbers um getting fixated on how the numbers rise and fall each day. Yeah. rise and fall each day. Yeah. rise and fall each day. Yeah. >> You know, I think a lot of >> You know, I think a lot of >> You know, I think a lot of >> then they become self-predictive. >> then they become self-predictive. >> then they become self-predictive. >> Yeah. And a lot of the I mean, a lot of >> Yeah. And a lot of the I mean, a lot of >> Yeah. And a lot of the I mean, a lot of the metrics in fitness, I mean, they're the metrics in fitness, I mean, they're the metrics in fitness, I mean, they're wrong. They're some degree of wrong. wrong. They're some degree of wrong. wrong. They're some degree of wrong. depends on what the number you're depends on what the number you're depends on what the number you're looking at on your fitness tracker is a looking at on your fitness tracker is a looking at on your fitness tracker is a lot lot lot >> I play around with a lot of them. Uh I >> I play around with a lot of them. Uh I >> I play around with a lot of them. Uh I think that you know like they can create think that you know like they can create think that you know like they can create a baseline so if they're wrong they'll a baseline so if they're wrong they'll a baseline so if they're wrong they'll be consistently wrong and you'll just be consistently wrong and you'll just be consistently wrong and you'll just know the point is to look for variations know the point is to look for variations know the point is to look for variations but you know I have one device that I but you know I have one device that I but you know I have one device that I use that tells me my biological age is use that tells me my biological age is use that tells me my biological age is like 32 and I have one that tells me I'm like 32 and I have one that tells me I'm like 32 and I have one that tells me I'm 60 you know so [laughter] 60 you know so [laughter] 60 you know so [laughter] >> you know what I mean so yeah don't don't >> you know what I mean so yeah don't don't >> you know what I mean so yeah don't don't you know don't overinvest too much in in you know don't overinvest too much in in you know don't overinvest too much in in in those things but I I do think they're in those things but I I do think they're in those things but I I do think they're helpful but and they can be good helpful but and they can be good helpful but and they can be good accountability partners uh and you know accountability partners uh and you know accountability partners uh and you know you there There is value in you there There is value in you there There is value in understanding that you know you can't understanding that you know you can't understanding that you know you can't improve something that you're not improve something that you're not improve something that you're not measuring but it's your relationship to measuring but it's your relationship to measuring but it's your relationship to the measurement I suppose which brings the measurement I suppose which brings the measurement I suppose which brings up a broader conversation around like up a broader conversation around like up a broader conversation around like goal setting and you know we're in the goal setting and you know we're in the goal setting and you know we're in the new year new year's resolutions like new year new year's resolutions like new year new year's resolutions like these are analog versions of the same these are analog versions of the same these are analog versions of the same thing right like how do you think about thing right like how do you think about thing right like how do you think about setting goals and intentions and setting goals and intentions and setting goals and intentions and visioning like we're in the new year do visioning like we're in the new year do visioning like we're in the new year do you have a practice around that or what you have a practice around that or what you have a practice around that or what does that look like for does that look like for does that look like for I think I saw a lot of stuff online I think I saw a lot of stuff online I think I saw a lot of stuff online about how people shouldn't set New about how people shouldn't set New about how people shouldn't set New Year's goals this year. That was like a Year's goals this year. That was like a Year's goals this year. That was like a wave. And I'm like, "No, that's the wave. And I'm like, "No, that's the wave. And I'm like, "No, that's the American tradition. Everyone just set a American tradition. Everyone just set a American tradition. Everyone just set a New Year's goal." Yeah, most people New Year's goal." Yeah, most people New Year's goal." Yeah, most people aren't going to meet it, but like, who aren't going to meet it, but like, who aren't going to meet it, but like, who cares? At least it gives you hope. cares? At least it gives you hope. cares? At least it gives you hope. >> There's a sense of hope and you start a >> There's a sense of hope and you start a >> There's a sense of hope and you start a practice and some subset of the practice and some subset of the practice and some subset of the population will continue that on and population will continue that on and population will continue that on and they will change. Um, so I think that they will change. Um, so I think that they will change. Um, so I think that New Year's resolutions, having these big New Year's resolutions, having these big New Year's resolutions, having these big goals at the beginning of the year, I goals at the beginning of the year, I goals at the beginning of the year, I think it's great because you probably think it's great because you probably think it's great because you probably learn something even if you only do it learn something even if you only do it learn something even if you only do it for a week. for a week. for a week. >> Do you do this yourself? >> Do you do this yourself? >> Do you do this yourself? >> Well, I will say that uh my New Year's >> Well, I will say that uh my New Year's >> Well, I will say that uh my New Year's resolution is to finish this other book resolution is to finish this other book resolution is to finish this other book I'm working on right now, which is a I'm working on right now, which is a I'm working on right now, which is a >> You and me both, brother. I I got one >> You and me both, brother. I I got one >> You and me both, brother. I I got one I'm That's my focus as well. I'm That's my focus as well. I'm That's my focus as well. >> Yeah. Now, the good thing is that we are >> Yeah. Now, the good thing is that we are >> Yeah. Now, the good thing is that we are contractually obligated to our contractually obligated to our contractually obligated to our [laughter] New Year's resolution. we [laughter] New Year's resolution. we [laughter] New Year's resolution. we have to have to have to >> it's been made for us. >> it's been made for us. >> it's been made for us. >> Yeah. And if we decide to bail, we got >> Yeah. And if we decide to bail, we got >> Yeah. And if we decide to bail, we got to write a check and hand it back to the to write a check and hand it back to the to write a check and hand it back to the uh publisher. So that that would be uh publisher. So that that would be uh publisher. So that that would be mine. I think for me like having some mine. I think for me like having some mine. I think for me like having some in the sort of health wellness space in the sort of health wellness space in the sort of health wellness space having some big thing I do each year can having some big thing I do each year can having some big thing I do each year can be kind of guiding. be kind of guiding. be kind of guiding. >> Yeah. Like a big outdoor task. So I've >> Yeah. Like a big outdoor task. So I've >> Yeah. Like a big outdoor task. So I've got to kind of stay ready for that. got to kind of stay ready for that. got to kind of stay ready for that. >> What is What is that for you this year >> What is What is that for you this year >> What is What is that for you this year or do you keep that quiet? I don't know or do you keep that quiet? I don't know or do you keep that quiet? I don't know what it'll be this year. It'll probably what it'll be this year. It'll probably what it'll be this year. It'll probably be in the fall. I mean, last spring I be in the fall. I mean, last spring I be in the fall. I mean, last spring I did that hike I mentioned. That was that did that hike I mentioned. That was that did that hike I mentioned. That was that was a long one. It was like 45 days. was a long one. It was like 45 days. was a long one. It was like 45 days. Granted, it was for a book. Um, Granted, it was for a book. Um, Granted, it was for a book. Um, [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> so we'll see what it is. But it also >> so we'll see what it is. But it also >> so we'll see what it is. But it also kind of focuses my training to be kind of focuses my training to be kind of focuses my training to be thinking more about what's going to thinking more about what's going to thinking more about what's going to what's going to actually work outdoors. what's going to actually work outdoors. what's going to actually work outdoors. And so, for example, in the Walk with And so, for example, in the Walk with And so, for example, in the Walk with Weight book, I talk about like if you're Weight book, I talk about like if you're Weight book, I talk about like if you're just thinking purely in terms of health, just thinking purely in terms of health, just thinking purely in terms of health, longevity, performance, longevity, performance, longevity, performance, like how should you be thinking about like how should you be thinking about like how should you be thinking about training? And to me, being prepared for training? And to me, being prepared for training? And to me, being prepared for outdoor stuff is like the ultimate path outdoor stuff is like the ultimate path outdoor stuff is like the ultimate path to that because most times in the to that because most times in the to that because most times in the outdoors, especially if you're out there outdoors, especially if you're out there outdoors, especially if you're out there for a long amount of time, you're having for a long amount of time, you're having for a long amount of time, you're having to carry weight, right? You probably got to carry weight, right? You probably got to carry weight, right? You probably got a backpack full of gear or something. a backpack full of gear or something. a backpack full of gear or something. So, you have to have enough muscle to be So, you have to have enough muscle to be So, you have to have enough muscle to be able to carry that. At the same time, able to carry that. At the same time, able to carry that. At the same time, you're also covering a lot of ground. you're also covering a lot of ground. you're also covering a lot of ground. So, you can't be overly muscular because So, you can't be overly muscular because So, you can't be overly muscular because then you're just carrying dead weight. then you're just carrying dead weight. then you're just carrying dead weight. So, you kind of find this like sweet So, you kind of find this like sweet So, you kind of find this like sweet spot in body size. You're training your spot in body size. You're training your spot in body size. You're training your endurance, you're training your endurance, you're training your endurance, you're training your strength. You're also having to think strength. You're also having to think strength. You're also having to think about, okay, how do I resist injuries so about, okay, how do I resist injuries so about, okay, how do I resist injuries so that I'm going to have to bake in what that I'm going to have to bake in what that I'm going to have to bake in what are exercises that are going to actually are exercises that are going to actually are exercises that are going to actually translate to getting my body across a translate to getting my body across a translate to getting my body across a super long trail, down a canyon, back up super long trail, down a canyon, back up super long trail, down a canyon, back up it, and not roll my ankle and not blow it, and not roll my ankle and not blow it, and not roll my ankle and not blow out my knee and not hurt my and all out my knee and not hurt my and all out my knee and not hurt my and all these other possible horrors that could these other possible horrors that could these other possible horrors that could happen along the trail. And so that happen along the trail. And so that happen along the trail. And so that really, I think, sort of guides my really, I think, sort of guides my really, I think, sort of guides my training and has been useful. And I training and has been useful. And I training and has been useful. And I think when you look at the data around, think when you look at the data around, think when you look at the data around, you know, body size, strength, you know, body size, strength, you know, body size, strength, endurance, it kind of hits the sweet endurance, it kind of hits the sweet endurance, it kind of hits the sweet spot for all the things in the sense spot for all the things in the sense spot for all the things in the sense that it gives you enough for everything, that it gives you enough for everything, that it gives you enough for everything, right? So a good example would be like right? So a good example would be like right? So a good example would be like strength and muscle. Right? Now, there's strength and muscle. Right? Now, there's strength and muscle. Right? Now, there's kind of a message, you need to have as kind of a message, you need to have as kind of a message, you need to have as much muscle as possible because that'll much muscle as possible because that'll much muscle as possible because that'll help you live longer. It's like, no, not help you live longer. It's like, no, not help you live longer. It's like, no, not really. You need to be strong enough and really. You need to be strong enough and really. You need to be strong enough and have enough muscle because at a certain have enough muscle because at a certain have enough muscle because at a certain point just packing on muscle for the point just packing on muscle for the point just packing on muscle for the sake of it, your body's not having to sake of it, your body's not having to sake of it, your body's not having to carry around all this stuff it doesn't carry around all this stuff it doesn't carry around all this stuff it doesn't really need and it's still taxing your really need and it's still taxing your really need and it's still taxing your system. So to me it's about like finding system. So to me it's about like finding system. So to me it's about like finding the sweet spot and the sweet spot I the sweet spot and the sweet spot I the sweet spot and the sweet spot I think can be found by mimicking what think can be found by mimicking what think can be found by mimicking what humans have always done which is move humans have always done which is move humans have always done which is move across outdoor landscapes and do hard across outdoor landscapes and do hard across outdoor landscapes and do hard things. things. things. >> There's a lot packed into what you just >> There's a lot packed into what you just >> There's a lot packed into what you just shared. Essentially, shared. Essentially, shared. Essentially, you want to be perpetually adventure you want to be perpetually adventure you want to be perpetually adventure ready. ready. ready. >> And in order to do that, you need >> And in order to do that, you need >> And in order to do that, you need strength, cardiovascular fitness, and strength, cardiovascular fitness, and strength, cardiovascular fitness, and the the the the the the the the the aspirant body type is what you call aspirant body type is what you call aspirant body type is what you call supermedium, right? And that is a way of supermedium, right? And that is a way of supermedium, right? And that is a way of distinguishing between kind of aesthetic distinguishing between kind of aesthetic distinguishing between kind of aesthetic fitness versus truly functional fitness. fitness versus truly functional fitness. fitness versus truly functional fitness. So, explain in a little bit more depth So, explain in a little bit more depth So, explain in a little bit more depth this idea of super medium. this idea of super medium. this idea of super medium. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I call this super medium >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I call this super medium >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I call this super medium on my substack. We got a nice crew who on my substack. We got a nice crew who on my substack. We got a nice crew who all chases super medium fitness, but all chases super medium fitness, but all chases super medium fitness, but it's basically the idea of and like I it's basically the idea of and like I it's basically the idea of and like I just said, you want enough endurance, just said, you want enough endurance, just said, you want enough endurance, but you also don't want to tip so far but you also don't want to tip so far but you also don't want to tip so far into endurance that you're shedding all into endurance that you're shedding all into endurance that you're shedding all this muscle. And when you have to this muscle. And when you have to this muscle. And when you have to actually throw on a pack, actually throw on a pack, actually throw on a pack, >> you don't want to look like a 205 >> you don't want to look like a 205 >> you don't want to look like a 205 marathoner. marathoner. marathoner. >> Right. Exactly. Because when you hand >> Right. Exactly. Because when you hand >> Right. Exactly. Because when you hand the 205 marathon or the 50 lb pack, the 205 marathon or the 50 lb pack, the 205 marathon or the 50 lb pack, >> well, now he's in trouble, right? At the >> well, now he's in trouble, right? At the >> well, now he's in trouble, right? At the same time, you don't want to be adding same time, you don't want to be adding same time, you don't want to be adding on so much muscle that now all of a on so much muscle that now all of a on so much muscle that now all of a sudden you're a two days and five minute sudden you're a two days and five minute sudden you're a two days and five minute marath. Yeah. It's trying to find that sweet Yeah. It's trying to find that sweet spot between those two. spot between those two. spot between those two. >> And the best way to achieve that balance >> And the best way to achieve that balance >> And the best way to achieve that balance in addition to rocking would be what? I in addition to rocking would be what? I in addition to rocking would be what? I think I think rocking is a great on-ramp think I think rocking is a great on-ramp think I think rocking is a great on-ramp to that because again, you're having to to that because again, you're having to to that because again, you're having to work your muscle. So, your body's going work your muscle. So, your body's going work your muscle. So, your body's going to go, "Okay, well, I should probably to go, "Okay, well, I should probably to go, "Okay, well, I should probably keep this stuff around because I'm keep this stuff around because I'm keep this stuff around because I'm having to carry heavy things." Running having to carry heavy things." Running having to carry heavy things." Running is good. Any form of cardio. I mean, I'm is good. Any form of cardio. I mean, I'm is good. Any form of cardio. I mean, I'm kind of ambiguous with cardio. I'm just kind of ambiguous with cardio. I'm just kind of ambiguous with cardio. I'm just like, you know, do what you like. I like, you know, do what you like. I like, you know, do what you like. I count rucking as a form of cardio. Um, count rucking as a form of cardio. Um, count rucking as a form of cardio. Um, and then weightlifting, and then weightlifting, and then weightlifting, I think, enough that you're maintaining I think, enough that you're maintaining I think, enough that you're maintaining strength and building it. Usually like strength and building it. Usually like strength and building it. Usually like two three days a week is usually fine two three days a week is usually fine two three days a week is usually fine for most people I would say. for most people I would say. for most people I would say. >> When you're rucking, what is your >> When you're rucking, what is your >> When you're rucking, what is your average heart rate? average heart rate? average heart rate? >> I don't track. >> I don't track. >> I don't track. >> Like are you you don't track any of this >> Like are you you don't track any of this >> Like are you you don't track any of this stuff? Do you have a sense of of like stuff? Do you have a sense of of like stuff? Do you have a sense of of like whether you're in a like are you in your whether you're in a like are you in your whether you're in a like are you in your zone too? zone too? zone too? >> For me, it would it obviously is >> For me, it would it obviously is >> For me, it would it obviously is landscape dependent, right? If you're landscape dependent, right? If you're landscape dependent, right? If you're going up a hill, it's going to be going up a hill, it's going to be going up a hill, it's going to be higher. But I would say if I'm carrying higher. But I would say if I'm carrying higher. But I would say if I'm carrying say 35 pounds around my neighborhood say 35 pounds around my neighborhood say 35 pounds around my neighborhood with my dogs, I'm probably with my dogs, I'm probably with my dogs, I'm probably low end of zone 2 because I take a lot low end of zone 2 because I take a lot low end of zone 2 because I take a lot of phone calls and I can have a phone of phone calls and I can have a phone of phone calls and I can have a phone call fine. Now, if I hit a hill at the call fine. Now, if I hit a hill at the call fine. Now, if I hit a hill at the same time, I'm going to be like I might same time, I'm going to be like I might same time, I'm going to be like I might get a little bit breathy. get a little bit breathy. get a little bit breathy. >> Yeah. If you're if you're if the terrain >> Yeah. If you're if you're if the terrain >> Yeah. If you're if you're if the terrain is dynamic and you have enough weight, is dynamic and you have enough weight, is dynamic and you have enough weight, then you're going to have like a lot of then you're going to have like a lot of then you're going to have like a lot of fluctuation in there. fluctuation in there. fluctuation in there. >> Yeah. Yeah. This sort of leads us into >> Yeah. Yeah. This sort of leads us into >> Yeah. Yeah. This sort of leads us into um a discussion around the the health um a discussion around the the health um a discussion around the the health span and and longevity aspects of of span and and longevity aspects of of span and and longevity aspects of of rucking that that you talk about in your rucking that that you talk about in your rucking that that you talk about in your book. And just on the heels of what you book. And just on the heels of what you book. And just on the heels of what you just shared about being super medium, just shared about being super medium, just shared about being super medium, you don't want to you don't want too you don't want to you don't want too you don't want to you don't want too much muscle. You need a certain amount much muscle. You need a certain amount much muscle. You need a certain amount of muscle. You you want to you want a of muscle. You you want to you want a of muscle. You you want to you want a certain level of mass, right? Especially certain level of mass, right? Especially certain level of mass, right? Especially as you age and it's harder to put muscle as you age and it's harder to put muscle as you age and it's harder to put muscle on your body. Are you saying something on your body. Are you saying something on your body. Are you saying something different or different or different or >> I would say you want So it's kind of >> I would say you want So it's kind of >> I would say you want So it's kind of like what are we measuring, right? I like what are we measuring, right? I like what are we measuring, right? I mean, if we're just measuring the muscle mean, if we're just measuring the muscle mean, if we're just measuring the muscle in itself, it's like, okay, but what's in itself, it's like, okay, but what's in itself, it's like, okay, but what's the overall end goal here? To me, it's the overall end goal here? To me, it's the overall end goal here? To me, it's like it's what it's to be able to live like it's what it's to be able to live like it's what it's to be able to live how you want to live and go out and do how you want to live and go out and do how you want to live and go out and do interesting things. interesting things. interesting things. So, I think a lot of the data would So, I think a lot of the data would So, I think a lot of the data would suggest like strength is actually what suggest like strength is actually what suggest like strength is actually what we care about, right? I mean like at a we care about, right? I mean like at a we care about, right? I mean like at a certain point you could argue all right certain point you could argue all right certain point you could argue all right well if you have more muscle that way if well if you have more muscle that way if well if you have more muscle that way if you start to waste away there's more of you start to waste away there's more of you start to waste away there's more of you to start wasting so you're going to you to start wasting so you're going to you to start wasting so you're going to be in a better spot it gets down these be in a better spot it gets down these be in a better spot it gets down these rabbit holes but I think when you look rabbit holes but I think when you look rabbit holes but I think when you look at like the longest lived people they're at like the longest lived people they're at like the longest lived people they're not big people right they tend to be not big people right they tend to be not big people right they tend to be small small small >> so I think if you're just using your >> so I think if you're just using your >> so I think if you're just using your body using your strength not having so body using your strength not having so body using your strength not having so much muscle that all of a sudden you're much muscle that all of a sudden you're much muscle that all of a sudden you're not going to go out for a run because not going to go out for a run because not going to go out for a run because well that really sucks because it pounds well that really sucks because it pounds well that really sucks because it pounds my knees because I have all this extra my knees because I have all this extra my knees because I have all this extra bulk on me. um everything has a cost, bulk on me. um everything has a cost, bulk on me. um everything has a cost, right? So to me, I think the answer is right? So to me, I think the answer is right? So to me, I think the answer is again, I'm going to repeat myself, but again, I'm going to repeat myself, but again, I'm going to repeat myself, but being at a size where you can do being at a size where you can do being at a size where you can do endurance work and not suffer, you're endurance work and not suffer, you're endurance work and not suffer, you're not going to be the best. You're not not going to be the best. You're not not going to be the best. You're not going to be the 205 marathoner. Doing going to be the 205 marathoner. Doing going to be the 205 marathoner. Doing enough strength work that you can do the enough strength work that you can do the enough strength work that you can do the tasks of everyday life and more. Um but tasks of everyday life and more. Um but tasks of everyday life and more. Um but not having so much of either that now not having so much of either that now not having so much of either that now you're sacrificing one for the other. you're sacrificing one for the other. you're sacrificing one for the other. >> Mhm. the ultimate hybrid athlete. Like a >> Mhm. the ultimate hybrid athlete. Like a >> Mhm. the ultimate hybrid athlete. Like a true hybrid athlete. true hybrid athlete. true hybrid athlete. >> Yeah. People get really interested in >> Yeah. People get really interested in >> Yeah. People get really interested in like all these different like V2 tests like all these different like V2 tests like all these different like V2 tests and what was this and that and that. And and what was this and that and that. And and what was this and that and that. And to me it's like the ultimate longevity to me it's like the ultimate longevity to me it's like the ultimate longevity test is can you just go hike up that test is can you just go hike up that test is can you just go hike up that mountain? Like if I told you right now, mountain? Like if I told you right now, mountain? Like if I told you right now, can you go hike your ass up that can you go hike your ass up that can you go hike your ass up that mountain? If I gave you a pack, that's mountain? If I gave you a pack, that's mountain? If I gave you a pack, that's way better because one, okay, well that way better because one, okay, well that way better because one, okay, well that tells me your endurance is pretty good. tells me your endurance is pretty good. tells me your endurance is pretty good. Well, you have this pack. Tells me Well, you have this pack. Tells me Well, you have this pack. Tells me you're probably pretty strong. Your you're probably pretty strong. Your you're probably pretty strong. Your lower body's strong. Also, you had to lower body's strong. Also, you had to lower body's strong. Also, you had to navigate and figure things out. That navigate and figure things out. That navigate and figure things out. That tells me something's working up here and tells me something's working up here and tells me something's working up here and between your skull, between your skull, between your skull, >> and you've exposed yourself to all these >> and you've exposed yourself to all these >> and you've exposed yourself to all these great sites, great views, great sounds. great sites, great views, great sounds. great sites, great views, great sounds. Like, a lot of good things are Like, a lot of good things are Like, a lot of good things are happening. And I think that sometimes we happening. And I think that sometimes we happening. And I think that sometimes we can get so down the rabbit hole of like can get so down the rabbit hole of like can get so down the rabbit hole of like >> this marker, that marker, this test, >> this marker, that marker, this test, >> this marker, that marker, this test, this whatever. It's like, no, just go this whatever. It's like, no, just go this whatever. It's like, no, just go out anding do something real. out anding do something real. out anding do something real. >> And if you can do it, well, that tells >> And if you can do it, well, that tells >> And if you can do it, well, that tells me you're probably in a pretty good me you're probably in a pretty good me you're probably in a pretty good spot. There's a lot of wackiness in the spot. There's a lot of wackiness in the spot. There's a lot of wackiness in the health span extension uh world at the health span extension uh world at the health span extension uh world at the moment. I'm sure you've seen plenty of moment. I'm sure you've seen plenty of moment. I'm sure you've seen plenty of it. it. it. >> There's so much people can measure. >> There's so much people can measure. >> There's so much people can measure. There's just so much and I think it There's just so much and I think it There's just so much and I think it becomes overwhelming at a certain point becomes overwhelming at a certain point becomes overwhelming at a certain point and really it's all just like kind of a and really it's all just like kind of a and really it's all just like kind of a marker for like what okay what are we marker for like what okay what are we marker for like what okay what are we measuring for? measuring for? measuring for? Usually it's like well it tells me your Usually it's like well it tells me your Usually it's like well it tells me your endurance is good. It's like okay well endurance is good. It's like okay well endurance is good. It's like okay well couldn't like a run up a hill do that couldn't like a run up a hill do that couldn't like a run up a hill do that too? Well that seems a little bit easier too? Well that seems a little bit easier too? Well that seems a little bit easier to me. you know, it's just it we we get to me. you know, it's just it we we get to me. you know, it's just it we we get a little bit it just gets really a little bit it just gets really a little bit it just gets really complicated to me. So, I think one of my complicated to me. So, I think one of my complicated to me. So, I think one of my big messages is like taking which I do big messages is like taking which I do big messages is like taking which I do in my Substack is like how do you take in my Substack is like how do you take in my Substack is like how do you take all this stuff and make it translatable all this stuff and make it translatable all this stuff and make it translatable and more actionable and approachable. and more actionable and approachable. and more actionable and approachable. >> Mhm. Because if you did everything that, >> Mhm. Because if you did everything that, >> Mhm. Because if you did everything that, you know, the sort of rabbit hole you know, the sort of rabbit hole you know, the sort of rabbit hole Instagram says, you'd be taking 50 tests Instagram says, you'd be taking 50 tests Instagram says, you'd be taking 50 tests and you'd have a, you know, $20,000 bill and you'd have a, you know, $20,000 bill and you'd have a, you know, $20,000 bill for something that a hike up a mountain for something that a hike up a mountain for something that a hike up a mountain could have told you for free. could have told you for free. could have told you for free. >> Sure. I mean, this is this is sort of a >> Sure. I mean, this is this is sort of a >> Sure. I mean, this is this is sort of a a test case for the scarcity loop, is it a test case for the scarcity loop, is it a test case for the scarcity loop, is it not? Like, we'd much rather like uh, you not? Like, we'd much rather like uh, you not? Like, we'd much rather like uh, you know, kind of focus on the the latest know, kind of focus on the the latest know, kind of focus on the the latest supplement or some new study that came supplement or some new study that came supplement or some new study that came out about a margin case. like we love out about a margin case. like we love out about a margin case. like we love these these 1% sort of things that are these these 1% sort of things that are these these 1% sort of things that are out there when in truth what's really out there when in truth what's really out there when in truth what's really moving the needle is like hey maybe like moving the needle is like hey maybe like moving the needle is like hey maybe like carry around something heavy for a while carry around something heavy for a while carry around something heavy for a while you know and it's like yeah maybe no I I you know and it's like yeah maybe no I I you know and it's like yeah maybe no I I want like look at this over here the want like look at this over here the want like look at this over here the shiny new thing that's going to like shiny new thing that's going to like shiny new thing that's going to like make all my dreams come true make all my dreams come true make all my dreams come true >> yeah I think that having a I wrote about >> yeah I think that having a I wrote about >> yeah I think that having a I wrote about this in scarcity brain too is I think this in scarcity brain too is I think this in scarcity brain too is I think that having a number gives people that having a number gives people that having a number gives people certainty and that's relaxing certainty and that's relaxing certainty and that's relaxing If I see that V2 number go from whatever If I see that V2 number go from whatever If I see that V2 number go from whatever 40 to 50, I've made it. I'm definitely 40 to 50, I've made it. I'm definitely 40 to 50, I've made it. I'm definitely improving. improving. improving. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But the V2 is just a proxy for all these >> But the V2 is just a proxy for all these >> But the V2 is just a proxy for all these other things that there are many other things that there are many other things that there are many different ways you can me measure them, different ways you can me measure them, different ways you can me measure them, right? It's like, why do we care about right? It's like, why do we care about right? It's like, why do we care about V2 in the first place? It's like, well, V2 in the first place? It's like, well, V2 in the first place? It's like, well, I want to live uh long. Well, why do you I want to live uh long. Well, why do you I want to live uh long. Well, why do you want to live long? Well, cuz I want to want to live long? Well, cuz I want to want to live long? Well, cuz I want to do I want to have these different do I want to have these different do I want to have these different experiences and blah blah blah. It's experiences and blah blah blah. It's experiences and blah blah blah. It's like, well, why don't you just go out like, well, why don't you just go out like, well, why don't you just go out and do the experiences? because it and do the experiences? because it and do the experiences? because it sounds like to me you're saying you need sounds like to me you're saying you need sounds like to me you're saying you need a certain V2 to have these experiences. a certain V2 to have these experiences. a certain V2 to have these experiences. So, if you just go do them now, well, So, if you just go do them now, well, So, if you just go do them now, well, tells me you've got your V2. You're good tells me you've got your V2. You're good tells me you've got your V2. You're good to go. to go. to go. >> From a uh Healthspan perspective, >> From a uh Healthspan perspective, >> From a uh Healthspan perspective, um it's this twoin one uh activity. um it's this twoin one uh activity. um it's this twoin one uh activity. You're getting strength and you're You're getting strength and you're You're getting strength and you're getting cardio. I guess there's sort of getting cardio. I guess there's sort of getting cardio. I guess there's sort of an optimization argument to be made for an optimization argument to be made for an optimization argument to be made for that, right? Like you're get you're that, right? Like you're get you're that, right? Like you're get you're you're you're getting double your bang you're you're getting double your bang you're you're getting double your bang for the buck. Um, but you're also for the buck. Um, but you're also for the buck. Um, but you're also working on your bone density without, working on your bone density without, working on your bone density without, you know, kind of the jarring aspects of you know, kind of the jarring aspects of you know, kind of the jarring aspects of of running, you know, cycling that kind of running, you know, cycling that kind of running, you know, cycling that kind of overlooks the bone density thing of overlooks the bone density thing of overlooks the bone density thing because you you do need some kind of because you you do need some kind of because you you do need some kind of like impact to stimulate that. like impact to stimulate that. like impact to stimulate that. >> What else uh do we know or not yet know >> What else uh do we know or not yet know >> What else uh do we know or not yet know about the kind of lifespan about the kind of lifespan about the kind of lifespan possibly lifespan extending aspects of possibly lifespan extending aspects of possibly lifespan extending aspects of this activity? I think one thing I this activity? I think one thing I this activity? I think one thing I didn't touch on didn't touch on didn't touch on is that it seems to be is that it seems to be is that it seems to be good for fat loss, maybe uniquely good. good for fat loss, maybe uniquely good. good for fat loss, maybe uniquely good. And that [clears throat] probably goes And that [clears throat] probably goes And that [clears throat] probably goes back to the fact that as you're carrying back to the fact that as you're carrying back to the fact that as you're carrying weight, weight, weight, you're having to burn energy, right? you're having to burn energy, right? you're having to burn energy, right? Like endurance exercises is going to Like endurance exercises is going to Like endurance exercises is going to burn a lot of calories. Um, but because burn a lot of calories. Um, but because burn a lot of calories. Um, but because you have that weight on your back, it's you have that weight on your back, it's you have that weight on your back, it's almost like your body has to hang on to almost like your body has to hang on to almost like your body has to hang on to the muscle in order to carry it. So the muscle in order to carry it. So the muscle in order to carry it. So there are some small studies. I would there are some small studies. I would there are some small studies. I would say these are small studies, but there say these are small studies, but there say these are small studies, but there was one um that took these Alaskan was one um that took these Alaskan was one um that took these Alaskan backcountry hunters backcountry hunters backcountry hunters and it tested their body fat and a bunch and it tested their body fat and a bunch and it tested their body fat and a bunch of different health markers um before of different health markers um before of different health markers um before they went out for a hunt. They're out in they went out for a hunt. They're out in they went out for a hunt. They're out in the mountains, I think, for 10 days. the mountains, I think, for 10 days. the mountains, I think, for 10 days. And when you're on a backcountry hunt, And when you're on a backcountry hunt, And when you're on a backcountry hunt, you're doing a lot of you're carrying you're doing a lot of you're carrying you're doing a lot of you're carrying weight, your gear in your backpack, weight, your gear in your backpack, weight, your gear in your backpack, you're doing up and down mountains all you're doing up and down mountains all you're doing up and down mountains all day across different terrain. day across different terrain. day across different terrain. And they all lost weight. they lost I And they all lost weight. they lost I And they all lost weight. they lost I can't remember the exact number like 10 can't remember the exact number like 10 can't remember the exact number like 10 pounds let's say you would think that pounds let's say you would think that pounds let's say you would think that when people lose weight some of that's when people lose weight some of that's when people lose weight some of that's going to come from fat some of that's going to come from fat some of that's going to come from fat some of that's going to come from muscle like in most going to come from muscle like in most going to come from muscle like in most cases when a person loses weight some cases when a person loses weight some cases when a person loses weight some will come from fat some will come from will come from fat some will come from will come from fat some will come from muscle but when these guys got back all muscle but when these guys got back all muscle but when these guys got back all the weight they lost was from fat they the weight they lost was from fat they the weight they lost was from fat they were able to hang on to muscle muscle were able to hang on to muscle muscle were able to hang on to muscle muscle slightly increased not uh significantly slightly increased not uh significantly slightly increased not uh significantly but just enough but just enough but just enough >> so I think there is something almost um >> so I think there is something almost um >> so I think there is something almost um not to give you sort of magic but I do not to give you sort of magic but I do not to give you sort of magic but I do think there's And that's that's pretty think there's And that's that's pretty think there's And that's that's pretty unique to this form of activity. unique to this form of activity. unique to this form of activity. >> Yeah, very unique. Yeah. Um >> Yeah, very unique. Yeah. Um >> Yeah, very unique. Yeah. Um and I'll say I've experienced that and I'll say I've experienced that and I'll say I've experienced that myself like when I've done long myself like when I've done long myself like when I've done long backcountry trips where I'm having to backcountry trips where I'm having to backcountry trips where I'm having to have a heavy pack the whole time. I'll have a heavy pack the whole time. I'll have a heavy pack the whole time. I'll come back and I'll be anywhere from 10 come back and I'll be anywhere from 10 come back and I'll be anywhere from 10 to 15 pounds lighter. This is like, you to 15 pounds lighter. This is like, you to 15 pounds lighter. This is like, you know, over the course of a month. Um but know, over the course of a month. Um but know, over the course of a month. Um but I don't think I've lost much muscle. and I don't think I've lost much muscle. and I don't think I've lost much muscle. and I come back and I look like I could go, I come back and I look like I could go, I come back and I look like I could go, you know, weigh in for a UFC fight. So, you know, weigh in for a UFC fight. So, you know, weigh in for a UFC fight. So, I'm just like ripped. And so, I do think I'm just like ripped. And so, I do think I'm just like ripped. And so, I do think that there's a strong case um that it that there's a strong case um that it that there's a strong case um that it could be uniquely good for fat loss and could be uniquely good for fat loss and could be uniquely good for fat loss and that's a good thing. that's a good thing. that's a good thing. >> People love to hear that. >> People love to hear that. >> People love to hear that. >> Yeah. Lose the fat. When I when back >> Yeah. Lose the fat. When I when back >> Yeah. Lose the fat. When I when back when I was in editor at Men's Health, it when I was in editor at Men's Health, it when I was in editor at Men's Health, it was like, can we get a fat loss headline was like, can we get a fat loss headline was like, can we get a fat loss headline on on that magazine? I don't love this. on on that magazine? I don't love this. on on that magazine? I don't love this. Can let's just sprinkle sprinkle some Can let's just sprinkle sprinkle some Can let's just sprinkle sprinkle some fat loss. fat loss. fat loss. >> Always get engagement no matter what. >> Always get engagement no matter what. >> Always get engagement no matter what. sprinkle some fat loss on there, sprinkle some fat loss on there, sprinkle some fat loss on there, >> especially in January, but uh uh any >> especially in January, but uh uh any >> especially in January, but uh uh any time of the year, I suppose. The other time of the year, I suppose. The other time of the year, I suppose. The other thing I didn't expect uh was the impact thing I didn't expect uh was the impact thing I didn't expect uh was the impact on infant development when an infant is on infant development when an infant is on infant development when an infant is being carried by an adult. being carried by an adult. being carried by an adult. >> Explain that. >> Explain that. >> Explain that. >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, when you are carrying a infant, a lot of when you are carrying a infant, a lot of when you are carrying a infant, a lot of really good things happen. Um, one is really good things happen. Um, one is really good things happen. Um, one is brain development because brain development because brain development because the infants say on your shoulder or the infants say on your shoulder or the infants say on your shoulder or whatever it is. So, they're looking out whatever it is. So, they're looking out whatever it is. So, they're looking out and seeing the world almost as you are. and seeing the world almost as you are. and seeing the world almost as you are. So, if I'm carrying a baby and we're So, if I'm carrying a baby and we're So, if I'm carrying a baby and we're talking, baby is picking up what is he talking, baby is picking up what is he talking, baby is picking up what is he doing? How is his face working? So, doing? How is his face working? So, doing? How is his face working? So, there's a big like social component there's a big like social component there's a big like social component where they're seeing how you're where they're seeing how you're where they're seeing how you're interacting with other people as you interacting with other people as you interacting with other people as you carry them. Um there's also physical carry them. Um there's also physical carry them. Um there's also physical components where these um different components where these um different components where these um different reflexes get trained like the sort of reflexes get trained like the sort of reflexes get trained like the sort of neck correct reflex gets trained. You neck correct reflex gets trained. You neck correct reflex gets trained. You know babies when their heads tip they'll know babies when their heads tip they'll know babies when their heads tip they'll pop it back up. Uh that gets trained. pop it back up. Uh that gets trained. pop it back up. Uh that gets trained. >> Grip also tends to get trained. There's >> Grip also tends to get trained. There's >> Grip also tends to get trained. There's this um gripping reflex where they this um gripping reflex where they this um gripping reflex where they they're clinging on to you. That's they're clinging on to you. That's they're clinging on to you. That's getting trained. Um yeah, just all these getting trained. Um yeah, just all these getting trained. Um yeah, just all these different um good things are happening. different um good things are happening. different um good things are happening. And I think the the point I make in the And I think the the point I make in the And I think the the point I make in the book is that, you know, for most of book is that, you know, for most of book is that, you know, for most of human history, human history, human history, we started by carrying our kids all the we started by carrying our kids all the we started by carrying our kids all the time, but then we put them in these time, but then we put them in these time, but then we put them in these slings or packs or whatever it was, and slings or packs or whatever it was, and slings or packs or whatever it was, and they were there with us getting all they were there with us getting all they were there with us getting all these good things that being carried these good things that being carried these good things that being carried trains. And today, we've shifted that trains. And today, we've shifted that trains. And today, we've shifted that away in a lot of cases, right? If you're away in a lot of cases, right? If you're away in a lot of cases, right? If you're moving across uh if you're walking moving across uh if you're walking moving across uh if you're walking through your neighborhood with kids, through your neighborhood with kids, through your neighborhood with kids, probably going to be in the stroller. If probably going to be in the stroller. If probably going to be in the stroller. If you're at the grocery store, it's in the you're at the grocery store, it's in the you're at the grocery store, it's in the basket and you put the basket in the basket and you put the basket in the basket and you put the basket in the shopping cart or whatever. I don't have shopping cart or whatever. I don't have shopping cart or whatever. I don't have children, so I don't know how what children, so I don't know how what children, so I don't know how what people are doing, but I think there is a people are doing, but I think there is a people are doing, but I think there is a case for case for case for asking yourself, how can I carry my asking yourself, how can I carry my asking yourself, how can I carry my infant more often? Cuz it does seem to infant more often? Cuz it does seem to infant more often? Cuz it does seem to lead to some good developmental things. lead to some good developmental things. lead to some good developmental things. 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But the point of private concert hall. But the point of this incredible technology, and it is this incredible technology, and it is this incredible technology, and it is incredible tech, is to serve function. incredible tech, is to serve function. incredible tech, is to serve function. So, it stays out of your way until you So, it stays out of your way until you So, it stays out of your way until you need it. The climate is already perfect. need it. The climate is already perfect. need it. The climate is already perfect. Traffic stress melts away. And when Traffic stress melts away. And when Traffic stress melts away. And when you're ready to move, the power is you're ready to move, the power is you're ready to move, the power is instant, smooth, quiet, completely instant, smooth, quiet, completely instant, smooth, quiet, completely effortless, and capable of traversing effortless, and capable of traversing effortless, and capable of traversing the most rugged environments. It's wild the most rugged environments. It's wild the most rugged environments. It's wild to enjoy such luxury and elegance in to enjoy such luxury and elegance in to enjoy such luxury and elegance in what is built to be an all-terrain what is built to be an all-terrain what is built to be an all-terrain vehicle. But Rivian overdelivers and no vehicle. But Rivian overdelivers and no vehicle. But Rivian overdelivers and no matter [music] where it takes me, which matter [music] where it takes me, which matter [music] where it takes me, which is basically everywhere I arrive is basically everywhere I arrive is basically everywhere I arrive recharged. I want to get into the the how of it I want to get into the the how of it all. Uh, and to do that, Tyler, can you all. Uh, and to do that, Tyler, can you all. Uh, and to do that, Tyler, can you bring I've got uh a little showand tell bring I've got uh a little showand tell bring I've got uh a little showand tell here. here. here. >> Um, I want to give people some >> Um, I want to give people some >> Um, I want to give people some actionable advice on on how to get actionable advice on on how to get actionable advice on on how to get started here. started here. started here. >> Walking with weight can mean many >> Walking with weight can mean many >> Walking with weight can mean many things. Uh, it can mean a rucks sack, things. Uh, it can mean a rucks sack, things. Uh, it can mean a rucks sack, which is essentially a backpack that you which is essentially a backpack that you which is essentially a backpack that you can fill with books or rocks or plates can fill with books or rocks or plates can fill with books or rocks or plates or what have you. or what have you. or what have you. >> I don't have one of those here, but I do >> I don't have one of those here, but I do >> I don't have one of those here, but I do have this, which is one of those like have this, which is one of those like have this, which is one of those like weight vests. This thing is incredibly weight vests. This thing is incredibly weight vests. This thing is incredibly heavy. heavy. heavy. >> I bought this like a couple years ago. >> I bought this like a couple years ago. >> I bought this like a couple years ago. >> I don't know. It's got these plates in >> I don't know. It's got these plates in >> I don't know. It's got these plates in it, it, it, >> you know, that like, you know, makes it >> you know, that like, you know, makes it >> you know, that like, you know, makes it like a kind of like a bulletproof vest. like a kind of like a bulletproof vest. like a kind of like a bulletproof vest. you know, these like you know, these like you know, these like >> we can get into the differences about of >> we can get into the differences about of >> we can get into the differences about of between uh backpacks and weight vests at between uh backpacks and weight vests at between uh backpacks and weight vests at some point. some point. some point. >> Yeah. With like a bunch of these things >> Yeah. With like a bunch of these things >> Yeah. With like a bunch of these things in there, right? And uh and obviously it in there, right? And uh and obviously it in there, right? And uh and obviously it distributes the weight between your distributes the weight between your distributes the weight between your chest and your back. chest and your back. chest and your back. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, there's that. And then we have >> So, there's that. And then we have >> So, there's that. And then we have these, which you're seeing more and more these, which you're seeing more and more these, which you're seeing more and more of. This This is a uh like a lighter of. This This is a uh like a lighter of. This This is a uh like a lighter weight vest made by a company called. weight vest made by a company called. weight vest made by a company called. I'm sure there's a bunch of different I'm sure there's a bunch of different I'm sure there's a bunch of different kinds of these. kinds of these. kinds of these. >> Like that first one is like first >> Like that first one is like first >> Like that first one is like first responder responder responder uh or you know special operator gear, uh or you know special operator gear, uh or you know special operator gear, right? And this is like I feel like you right? And this is like I feel like you right? And this is like I feel like you wear this one if you're training for the wear this one if you're training for the wear this one if you're training for the combine or something you know combine or something you know combine or something you know >> like an NFL player would would train in >> like an NFL player would would train in >> like an NFL player would would train in something like this and it's more like something like this and it's more like something like this and it's more like form fitting but also a vest and the form fitting but also a vest and the form fitting but also a vest and the weight is evenly distributed even though weight is evenly distributed even though weight is evenly distributed even though it's much less it's much less it's much less >> a rucks sack or a backpack. All the >> a rucks sack or a backpack. All the >> a rucks sack or a backpack. All the weight is on the back. weight is on the back. weight is on the back. >> The back. Yeah. >> The back. Yeah. >> The back. Yeah. >> And my intuition was always that it >> And my intuition was always that it >> And my intuition was always that it would be healthier or better or easier would be healthier or better or easier would be healthier or better or easier on your body if the weight was evenly on your body if the weight was evenly on your body if the weight was evenly distributed. distributed. distributed. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But what I learned in reading your book >> But what I learned in reading your book >> But what I learned in reading your book is that that's actually not the case. is that that's actually not the case. is that that's actually not the case. >> Yeah. I think for most people >> Yeah. I think for most people >> Yeah. I think for most people most of the time, if you had to choose most of the time, if you had to choose most of the time, if you had to choose one, I would steer people into a one, I would steer people into a one, I would steer people into a backpack. And there's a handful of backpack. And there's a handful of backpack. And there's a handful of reasons for that. I'm not saying weight reasons for that. I'm not saying weight reasons for that. I'm not saying weight vests are bad at all. They're great. vests are bad at all. They're great. vests are bad at all. They're great. Like big message is Like big message is Like big message is that you carry weight is far more that you carry weight is far more that you carry weight is far more important than how. But if you had to important than how. But if you had to important than how. But if you had to pick just one, I would suggest um pick just one, I would suggest um pick just one, I would suggest um backpack. Now with a weight vest with it backpack. Now with a weight vest with it backpack. Now with a weight vest with it loaded in your front and your back loaded in your front and your back loaded in your front and your back in the research, in the research, in the research, having it loaded that way um leads to a having it loaded that way um leads to a having it loaded that way um leads to a more normal walking gate. So your more normal walking gate. So your more normal walking gate. So your walking mimics how you would walk walking mimics how you would walk walking mimics how you would walk unloaded. So that might lead you to unloaded. So that might lead you to unloaded. So that might lead you to think, oh well then then that's better think, oh well then then that's better think, oh well then then that's better because when you have the weight on your because when you have the weight on your because when you have the weight on your back, what happens is you tend to tip back, what happens is you tend to tip back, what happens is you tend to tip slightly forward your torso to sort of slightly forward your torso to sort of slightly forward your torso to sort of like balance the weight, if you will. Um like balance the weight, if you will. Um like balance the weight, if you will. Um but in the real world, what happens is but in the real world, what happens is but in the real world, what happens is once you've walked for a longer time once you've walked for a longer time once you've walked for a longer time with the weight vest, especially if it's with the weight vest, especially if it's with the weight vest, especially if it's one the size of that and is heavy, um one the size of that and is heavy, um one the size of that and is heavy, um [clears throat] people tend to get [clears throat] people tend to get [clears throat] people tend to get tired. And when you get tired with that tired. And when you get tired with that tired. And when you get tired with that weight around you, you almost have weight around you, you almost have weight around you, you almost have nothing to resist against. M. So you got nothing to resist against. M. So you got nothing to resist against. M. So you got nowhere to go. So I'll give you an nowhere to go. So I'll give you an nowhere to go. So I'll give you an example to understand this. If we were example to understand this. If we were example to understand this. If we were to take a like 400 lb weight vest and I to take a like 400 lb weight vest and I to take a like 400 lb weight vest and I were to put that on you, you would just were to put that on you, you would just were to put that on you, you would just collapse, right? You'd probably just collapse, right? You'd probably just collapse, right? You'd probably just fall. Now, if we took that same 100 400 fall. Now, if we took that same 100 400 fall. Now, if we took that same 100 400 lb and put it in a backpack, lb and put it in a backpack, lb and put it in a backpack, you could probably still stand. And why you could probably still stand. And why you could probably still stand. And why is that? It's because you've got is that? It's because you've got is that? It's because you've got something to actually resist against. something to actually resist against. something to actually resist against. You could lean forward. You could You could lean forward. You could You could lean forward. You could balance it. So you can still keep balance it. So you can still keep balance it. So you can still keep moving. So once you get tired with a moving. So once you get tired with a moving. So once you get tired with a weight vest, especially if it's heavy, weight vest, especially if it's heavy, weight vest, especially if it's heavy, your posture starts to just go to your posture starts to just go to your posture starts to just go to absolute [ __ ] You've still got this absolute [ __ ] You've still got this absolute [ __ ] You've still got this weight pulling down on you and you start weight pulling down on you and you start weight pulling down on you and you start to see problem. So um you've had Kelly to see problem. So um you've had Kelly to see problem. So um you've had Kelly and Julia Stret on the podcast. Yeah. and Julia Stret on the podcast. Yeah. and Julia Stret on the podcast. Yeah. >> So they see a lot of issues with the >> So they see a lot of issues with the >> So they see a lot of issues with the military uh members they work with military uh members they work with military uh members they work with because they're wearing these really because they're wearing these really because they're wearing these really heavy body armor things. They're wearing heavy body armor things. They're wearing heavy body armor things. They're wearing them, they're moving, they get tired, them, they're moving, they get tired, them, they're moving, they get tired, and they start to slump in this thing and they start to slump in this thing and they start to slump in this thing and they've got this weight just and they've got this weight just and they've got this weight just dragging them down. Um whereas in the dragging them down. Um whereas in the dragging them down. Um whereas in the backpack you can still move and have backpack you can still move and have backpack you can still move and have something to resist against and keep something to resist against and keep something to resist against and keep your posture in a solid position. Good your posture in a solid position. Good your posture in a solid position. Good example of this would be um example of this would be um example of this would be um throughhikers, right? Throughhikers throughhikers, right? Throughhikers throughhikers, right? Throughhikers could choose to carry their gear any way could choose to carry their gear any way could choose to carry their gear any way they want. A gear company could surely they want. A gear company could surely they want. A gear company could surely come up with some vest thing that come up with some vest thing that come up with some vest thing that carries your sleeping bag in your back, carries your sleeping bag in your back, carries your sleeping bag in your back, your food in your front, whatever it your food in your front, whatever it your food in your front, whatever it might be. But all of them are putting might be. But all of them are putting might be. But all of them are putting their stuff in a backpack. And why is their stuff in a backpack. And why is their stuff in a backpack. And why is that? because it's way more efficient that? because it's way more efficient that? because it's way more efficient the farther you go and the tire you get. the farther you go and the tire you get. the farther you go and the tire you get. >> Interesting. So, if you're going long >> Interesting. So, if you're going long >> Interesting. So, if you're going long distances and you have a heavy pack and distances and you have a heavy pack and distances and you have a heavy pack and it's all on your back, you're going to it's all on your back, you're going to it's all on your back, you're going to start to lean forward, right? To balance start to lean forward, right? To balance start to lean forward, right? To balance that out. Isn't that when you talk about that out. Isn't that when you talk about that out. Isn't that when you talk about maintaining a a healthy good posture? maintaining a a healthy good posture? maintaining a a healthy good posture? Isn't that Isn't that Isn't that does does that become problematic or or does does that become problematic or or does does that become problematic or or are we built to handle that? Uh I would are we built to handle that? Uh I would are we built to handle that? Uh I would say for most weights we're built to say for most weights we're built to say for most weights we're built to handle that. So, of course, if you had handle that. So, of course, if you had handle that. So, of course, if you had hundreds of pounds in the pack or say a hundreds of pounds in the pack or say a hundreds of pounds in the pack or say a 100 or more than a third of your body 100 or more than a third of your body 100 or more than a third of your body weight, whatever it is, I think you weight, whatever it is, I think you weight, whatever it is, I think you might start to see some issues. But what might start to see some issues. But what might start to see some issues. But what happens is when you put the weight on happens is when you put the weight on happens is when you put the weight on your back, and this is this is really your back, and this is this is really your back, and this is this is really interesting. This is something I learned interesting. This is something I learned interesting. This is something I learned reporting this book, and I was like, reporting this book, and I was like, reporting this book, and I was like, "Wow, that's interesting." Um, when you "Wow, that's interesting." Um, when you "Wow, that's interesting." Um, when you put weight on your back, it actually put weight on your back, it actually put weight on your back, it actually removes tension from the muscles on your removes tension from the muscles on your removes tension from the muscles on your back. you actually work your back back. you actually work your back back. you actually work your back muscles less with a reasonably weighted muscles less with a reasonably weighted muscles less with a reasonably weighted pack on your back than you do just pack on your back than you do just pack on your back than you do just standing. So you're like, "How the hell standing. So you're like, "How the hell standing. So you're like, "How the hell does that work?" That's because your abs does that work?" That's because your abs does that work?" That's because your abs start to engage much harder. So they start to engage much harder. So they start to engage much harder. So they pick up the slack of those uh back pick up the slack of those uh back pick up the slack of those uh back muscles that have essentially been sort muscles that have essentially been sort muscles that have essentially been sort of shut off in a way. And so that's one of shut off in a way. And so that's one of shut off in a way. And so that's one reason I like the backpack is because it reason I like the backpack is because it reason I like the backpack is because it works your core harder. When you start works your core harder. When you start works your core harder. When you start to tip, your core has to really engage. to tip, your core has to really engage. to tip, your core has to really engage. Those back muscles sort of shut off. Those back muscles sort of shut off. Those back muscles sort of shut off. your core picks up all that slack and your core picks up all that slack and your core picks up all that slack and you engage your core um pretty well. And you engage your core um pretty well. And you engage your core um pretty well. And I think a lot of back issues are tied to I think a lot of back issues are tied to I think a lot of back issues are tied to a weak core. Um having a weak core can a weak core. Um having a weak core can a weak core. Um having a weak core can set you up for other injuries down the set you up for other injuries down the set you up for other injuries down the road. So I think it's just a nice little road. So I think it's just a nice little road. So I think it's just a nice little way to improve your core strength way to improve your core strength way to improve your core strength without having to do boring planks and without having to do boring planks and without having to do boring planks and bird dogs and all those exercises that bird dogs and all those exercises that bird dogs and all those exercises that we do. we do. we do. >> That leads me into my next question. >> That leads me into my next question. >> That leads me into my next question. which is has to do with the safety of which is has to do with the safety of which is has to do with the safety of this for people who do have a history this for people who do have a history this for people who do have a history with back issues. And I say this is with back issues. And I say this is with back issues. And I say this is somebody who's, you know, still somebody who's, you know, still somebody who's, you know, still recovering from I had spinal fusion recovering from I had spinal fusion recovering from I had spinal fusion surgery this past May. So I'm eight I'm surgery this past May. So I'm eight I'm surgery this past May. So I'm eight I'm 8 months post surgery and everything is 8 months post surgery and everything is 8 months post surgery and everything is going well, but you know those bone going well, but you know those bone going well, but you know those bone those bones take 12 to 18 months to to those bones take 12 to 18 months to to those bones take 12 to 18 months to to fully um to to fully fuse. And so I'm fully um to to fully fuse. And so I'm fully um to to fully fuse. And so I'm I'm still, you know, not able to do I'm still, you know, not able to do I'm still, you know, not able to do anything that's going to compress my anything that's going to compress my anything that's going to compress my spine. So this is probably something I spine. So this is probably something I spine. So this is probably something I still have to defer for a little bit. still have to defer for a little bit. still have to defer for a little bit. >> Um, but assuming you haven't had spinal >> Um, but assuming you haven't had spinal >> Um, but assuming you haven't had spinal fusion surgery and you just maybe you fusion surgery and you just maybe you fusion surgery and you just maybe you have like a a a mild or or relatively have like a a a mild or or relatively have like a a a mild or or relatively mild kind of chronic back mild kind of chronic back mild kind of chronic back >> situation, um, can this be helpful? Is >> situation, um, can this be helpful? Is >> situation, um, can this be helpful? Is this going to exacerbate that problem? this going to exacerbate that problem? this going to exacerbate that problem? >> Well, I would tell everyone if you're >> Well, I would tell everyone if you're >> Well, I would tell everyone if you're going to try it, definitely ease in. And going to try it, definitely ease in. And going to try it, definitely ease in. And I would say that whether or not you have I would say that whether or not you have I would say that whether or not you have a back issue, I think one problem is a back issue, I think one problem is a back issue, I think one problem is that this is more for men, I will say. that this is more for men, I will say. that this is more for men, I will say. But they see rucking, they see military, But they see rucking, they see military, But they see rucking, they see military, they go, "All right, I'm throwing 70 lbs they go, "All right, I'm throwing 70 lbs they go, "All right, I'm throwing 70 lbs in this pack and I'm going to go for a in this pack and I'm going to go for a in this pack and I'm going to go for a walk." It's like, "Maybe let's lighten walk." It's like, "Maybe let's lighten walk." It's like, "Maybe let's lighten that up a little bit." Um, I tell people that up a little bit." Um, I tell people that up a little bit." Um, I tell people to start with, say, 10% of their body to start with, say, 10% of their body to start with, say, 10% of their body weight at first. For some people that weight at first. For some people that weight at first. For some people that might actually be a little too heavy, might actually be a little too heavy, might actually be a little too heavy, and you'll know, and you can just back and you'll know, and you can just back and you'll know, and you can just back off. Um, for some people they might find off. Um, for some people they might find off. Um, for some people they might find it way too light and they'll need to add it way too light and they'll need to add it way too light and they'll need to add another 10 lbs. So starting light, I another 10 lbs. So starting light, I another 10 lbs. So starting light, I think, is think, is think, is really important when you start. Um, the really important when you start. Um, the really important when you start. Um, the reason is you just kind of want to ease reason is you just kind of want to ease reason is you just kind of want to ease into fitness things, right? It's like into fitness things, right? It's like into fitness things, right? It's like you don't want to do too much too soon you don't want to do too much too soon you don't want to do too much too soon cuz that's when problems can happen. Not cuz that's when problems can happen. Not cuz that's when problems can happen. Not to mention if you're the first time you to mention if you're the first time you to mention if you're the first time you ever go out with a weighted backpack, it ever go out with a weighted backpack, it ever go out with a weighted backpack, it feels like a death march. You're feels like a death march. You're feels like a death march. You're probably not going to do it again. You probably not going to do it again. You probably not going to do it again. You won't enjoy it. So by starting light, won't enjoy it. So by starting light, won't enjoy it. So by starting light, you can be like, "Okay, I've kind of you can be like, "Okay, I've kind of you can be like, "Okay, I've kind of worked my way into this. I know how it worked my way into this. I know how it worked my way into this. I know how it feels. It's not entirely comfortable, feels. It's not entirely comfortable, feels. It's not entirely comfortable, but I can do it. And then you can add but I can do it. And then you can add but I can do it. And then you can add more weight from there. To answer your more weight from there. To answer your more weight from there. To answer your question about back pain and injuries, I question about back pain and injuries, I question about back pain and injuries, I think it's case specific and I would of think it's case specific and I would of think it's case specific and I would of course defer to the doctor working with course defer to the doctor working with course defer to the doctor working with an individual, but I will say um Stu an individual, but I will say um Stu an individual, but I will say um Stu McIll, who's a back health expert up in McIll, who's a back health expert up in McIll, who's a back health expert up in Canada, one tool that he uses to rehab Canada, one tool that he uses to rehab Canada, one tool that he uses to rehab the spines of some of his um injuries the spines of some of his um injuries the spines of some of his um injuries cases that he uh sees is he does have cases that he uh sees is he does have cases that he uh sees is he does have them rock with a weight in a backpack. them rock with a weight in a backpack. them rock with a weight in a backpack. And that seems to help um some of those And that seems to help um some of those And that seems to help um some of those patients because it kind of gives your patients because it kind of gives your patients because it kind of gives your spine this light spine this light spine this light >> sort of like decompresses things, gives >> sort of like decompresses things, gives >> sort of like decompresses things, gives it some like light motion and that seems it some like light motion and that seems it some like light motion and that seems to lead good things to happen. But to lead good things to happen. But to lead good things to happen. But again, ask your doctor. again, ask your doctor. again, ask your doctor. >> The other uh argument in favor of the >> The other uh argument in favor of the >> The other uh argument in favor of the backpack versus the the vest uh has to backpack versus the the vest uh has to backpack versus the the vest uh has to do with breath, right? Like this is do with breath, right? Like this is do with breath, right? Like this is something that that that Kelly and something that that that Kelly and something that that that Kelly and Juliet Starret talk a lot about. Like if Juliet Starret talk a lot about. Like if Juliet Starret talk a lot about. Like if you first of all these vests, especially you first of all these vests, especially you first of all these vests, especially if there's a lot of weight on them, not if there's a lot of weight on them, not if there's a lot of weight on them, not great for women, right? Like this is great for women, right? Like this is great for women, right? Like this is this is not really going to work for this is not really going to work for this is not really going to work for them. Um but beyond that, it's them. Um but beyond that, it's them. Um but beyond that, it's constricting the chest cavity in a way constricting the chest cavity in a way constricting the chest cavity in a way that is impeding uh the body's ability that is impeding uh the body's ability that is impeding uh the body's ability to, you know, breathe freely. to, you know, breathe freely. to, you know, breathe freely. >> Yeah. I'm a founding member of a brand >> Yeah. I'm a founding member of a brand >> Yeah. I'm a founding member of a brand called Walkfully that's uh makes weight called Walkfully that's uh makes weight called Walkfully that's uh makes weight vest. They're coming out in end of vest. They're coming out in end of vest. They're coming out in end of February. Weight February. Weight February. Weight >> I went to the website. I didn't see any >> I went to the website. I didn't see any >> I went to the website. I didn't see any gear. It was about It was like a gear. It was about It was like a gear. It was about It was like a program. program. program. >> Yeah. The gear will be out in uh end of >> Yeah. The gear will be out in uh end of >> Yeah. The gear will be out in uh end of February. So then we'll start populating February. So then we'll start populating February. So then we'll start populating it then. Um but we have a weight vest it then. Um but we have a weight vest it then. Um but we have a weight vest that avoids that issue. We've cut it so that avoids that issue. We've cut it so that avoids that issue. We've cut it so it's not going to be the weight isn't it's not going to be the weight isn't it's not going to be the weight isn't going to be on your chest hanging off going to be on your chest hanging off going to be on your chest hanging off there. So it's um that makes it good for there. So it's um that makes it good for there. So it's um that makes it good for women. That also makes it better for women. That also makes it better for women. That also makes it better for anyone because weight isn't on your anyone because weight isn't on your anyone because weight isn't on your chest constricting your breathing. Cuz chest constricting your breathing. Cuz chest constricting your breathing. Cuz when you do put in some of the more when you do put in some of the more when you do put in some of the more military style ones military style ones military style ones >> that you see with weight vests where you >> that you see with weight vests where you >> that you see with weight vests where you have a plate on the front, plate on the have a plate on the front, plate on the have a plate on the front, plate on the back. Yeah. Having a bunch of weight back. Yeah. Having a bunch of weight back. Yeah. Having a bunch of weight right over your rib cage can make it right over your rib cage can make it right over your rib cage can make it harder to breathe. Not to mention it harder to breathe. Not to mention it harder to breathe. Not to mention it makes it so sweat can't do its job if makes it so sweat can't do its job if makes it so sweat can't do its job if you start to get hot cuz sweat needs you start to get hot cuz sweat needs you start to get hot cuz sweat needs works by evaporative cooling, right? So works by evaporative cooling, right? So works by evaporative cooling, right? So if you're not getting if you're like if you're not getting if you're like if you're not getting if you're like putting a bunch of steel over your putting a bunch of steel over your putting a bunch of steel over your sweat, it's not going to evaporate. sweat, it's not going to evaporate. sweat, it's not going to evaporate. You're going to overheat. So, um, to You're going to overheat. So, um, to You're going to overheat. So, um, to that point, I think that's where a that point, I think that's where a that point, I think that's where a backpack is helpful because it keeps the backpack is helpful because it keeps the backpack is helpful because it keeps the weight off your chest or a weight vest weight off your chest or a weight vest weight off your chest or a weight vest where the weight isn't compressing your where the weight isn't compressing your where the weight isn't compressing your chest more or less. chest more or less. chest more or less. >> It also removes all barriers to entry. I >> It also removes all barriers to entry. I >> It also removes all barriers to entry. I mean, pretty much everyone has a mean, pretty much everyone has a mean, pretty much everyone has a backpack, right? Like you can go buy backpack, right? Like you can go buy backpack, right? Like you can go buy your fancy, you know, rucks sack or your fancy, you know, rucks sack or your fancy, you know, rucks sack or whatever, but uh, you can just, you whatever, but uh, you can just, you whatever, but uh, you can just, you know, put a little bit of weight in your know, put a little bit of weight in your know, put a little bit of weight in your backpack and you're good to go. Yeah, backpack and you're good to go. Yeah, backpack and you're good to go. Yeah, that's one of the things that I love that's one of the things that I love that's one of the things that I love about this is about this is about this is you don't need a membership. You don't you don't need a membership. You don't you don't need a membership. You don't need to go buy a bunch of stuff. If you need to go buy a bunch of stuff. If you need to go buy a bunch of stuff. If you have shoes that you can walk in and a have shoes that you can walk in and a have shoes that you can walk in and a backpack around the house and something backpack around the house and something backpack around the house and something that weighs something, you can start. that weighs something, you can start. that weighs something, you can start. It's like that Wordssworth quote to It's like that Wordssworth quote to It's like that Wordssworth quote to begin. begin. begin. You could literally pause this episode You could literally pause this episode You could literally pause this episode right now and probably find everything right now and probably find everything right now and probably find everything you need um to do it. And I just love you need um to do it. And I just love you need um to do it. And I just love that about it. um makes it just really that about it. um makes it just really that about it. um makes it just really universal for everyone. Kids can do it. universal for everyone. Kids can do it. universal for everyone. Kids can do it. My mom who's in her 70s, My mom who's in her 70s, My mom who's in her 70s, >> I mean, kids are already doing it. >> I mean, kids are already doing it. >> I mean, kids are already doing it. They're, you know, they're wearing They're, you know, they're wearing They're, you know, they're wearing backpacks all all day with lots of books backpacks all all day with lots of books backpacks all all day with lots of books in Well, I don't know. They used to have in Well, I don't know. They used to have in Well, I don't know. They used to have books in them. Now it's all digital, I books in them. Now it's all digital, I books in them. Now it's all digital, I think. think. think. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which brings me to this question around >> Which brings me to this question around >> Which brings me to this question around >> um the diff like walking with weight can >> um the diff like walking with weight can >> um the diff like walking with weight can mean many things, right? Like is there mean many things, right? Like is there mean many things, right? Like is there uh something specific about like we uh something specific about like we uh something specific about like we talked about, you know, the what happens talked about, you know, the what happens talked about, you know, the what happens when you have it on your back, but you when you have it on your back, but you when you have it on your back, but you could be, you know, carrying bags in could be, you know, carrying bags in could be, you know, carrying bags in each arm, right? Is there is there each arm, right? Is there is there each arm, right? Is there is there value in that? Is that different? Is value in that? Is that different? Is value in that? Is that different? Is that similar? Like is there an argument that similar? Like is there an argument that similar? Like is there an argument to do that instead? Like I'm also to do that instead? Like I'm also to do that instead? Like I'm also thinking about like you know Cam Haynes, thinking about like you know Cam Haynes, thinking about like you know Cam Haynes, he like when he has people on his he like when he has people on his he like when he has people on his podcast, he makes them like go up this podcast, he makes them like go up this podcast, he makes them like go up this mountain and carry like big rocks and mountain and carry like big rocks and mountain and carry like big rocks and stuff like that. you know, they're stuff like that. you know, they're stuff like that. you know, they're they're carrying them in front of them. they're carrying them in front of them. they're carrying them in front of them. They're not putting them on their back, They're not putting them on their back, They're not putting them on their back, >> right? Each will impact uh you >> right? Each will impact uh you >> right? Each will impact uh you differently. differently. differently. I think you should. So, I think throwing I think you should. So, I think throwing I think you should. So, I think throwing weight in a backpack and going for a weight in a backpack and going for a weight in a backpack and going for a walk or throwing on a weight vest, if walk or throwing on a weight vest, if walk or throwing on a weight vest, if you have one, is like kind of the you have one, is like kind of the you have one, is like kind of the foundation, but I do think that there is foundation, but I do think that there is foundation, but I do think that there is a case to be made that if you're working a case to be made that if you're working a case to be made that if you're working out at a gym or you're outside or out at a gym or you're outside or out at a gym or you're outside or whatever, to find different ways to whatever, to find different ways to whatever, to find different ways to carry items. like when you shift the carry items. like when you shift the carry items. like when you shift the weight all the way to the front, it's weight all the way to the front, it's weight all the way to the front, it's going to change the musculature that's going to change the musculature that's going to change the musculature that's worked. Um, if you're carrying things at worked. Um, if you're carrying things at worked. Um, if you're carrying things at your side, you're taxing your grip, your side, you're taxing your grip, your side, you're taxing your grip, you're taxing your core strength. you're taxing your core strength. you're taxing your core strength. There's a lot of different carrying There's a lot of different carrying There's a lot of different carrying exercises you do. I did a Substack exercises you do. I did a Substack exercises you do. I did a Substack article about this that was like 11 article about this that was like 11 article about this that was like 11 different ways to carry weight or different ways to carry weight or different ways to carry weight or something like that, and I kind of break something like that, and I kind of break something like that, and I kind of break down the benefits of each of them. But down the benefits of each of them. But down the benefits of each of them. But to me, like kind of practical takeaway to me, like kind of practical takeaway to me, like kind of practical takeaway for people listening is, you know, go for people listening is, you know, go for people listening is, you know, go out and do your long walks with your out and do your long walks with your out and do your long walks with your pack or your weight vest or whatever pack or your weight vest or whatever pack or your weight vest or whatever you're doing. But if you're strength you're doing. But if you're strength you're doing. But if you're strength training in the gym, something like training in the gym, something like training in the gym, something like farmers carries or suitcase carries or farmers carries or suitcase carries or farmers carries or suitcase carries or if there's a sandbag in the gym and you if there's a sandbag in the gym and you if there's a sandbag in the gym and you just walk with it in front of you for a just walk with it in front of you for a just walk with it in front of you for a few sets, you can go a little bit few sets, you can go a little bit few sets, you can go a little bit heavier. Um, I think that's really heavier. Um, I think that's really heavier. Um, I think that's really beneficial, too. Does a lot of really beneficial, too. Does a lot of really beneficial, too. Does a lot of really good things for the core. Um, and it's good things for the core. Um, and it's good things for the core. Um, and it's also really practical. also really practical. also really practical. like you actually have to pick up stuff like you actually have to pick up stuff like you actually have to pick up stuff and carry it in real life, you know, and carry it in real life, you know, and carry it in real life, you know, whereas like a bar like a dumbbell curl whereas like a bar like a dumbbell curl whereas like a bar like a dumbbell curl skill. skill. skill. >> Yeah. It's like dumbbell curl is like >> Yeah. It's like dumbbell curl is like >> Yeah. It's like dumbbell curl is like how many how often do you actually do how many how often do you actually do how many how often do you actually do that, you know? You don't that, you know? You don't that, you know? You don't [clears throat] I'm not saying don't do [clears throat] I'm not saying don't do [clears throat] I'm not saying don't do it, but I'm just saying like this is it, but I'm just saying like this is it, but I'm just saying like this is actually things that will train you to actually things that will train you to actually things that will train you to deal with the stuff that life deal with the stuff that life deal with the stuff that life >> and they're they're compound movements. >> and they're they're compound movements. >> and they're they're compound movements. >> Yeah. for the beginner. I'm assuming >> Yeah. for the beginner. I'm assuming >> Yeah. for the beginner. I'm assuming that that most people who listen or or that that most people who listen or or that that most people who listen or or watch this podcast are are are, you watch this podcast are are are, you watch this podcast are are are, you know, at least interested in fitness know, at least interested in fitness know, at least interested in fitness probably have some, you know, modest probably have some, you know, modest probably have some, you know, modest level of fitness at a at a base level, level of fitness at a at a base level, level of fitness at a at a base level, but like any new thing, less is more in but like any new thing, less is more in but like any new thing, less is more in the beginning. So, start with 10% of the beginning. So, start with 10% of the beginning. So, start with 10% of your body weight. Do your walk right. your body weight. Do your walk right. your body weight. Do your walk right. There's no set distance here. There's no set distance here. There's no set distance here. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Right. Do what feels manageable for you. >> Right. Do what feels manageable for you. >> Right. Do what feels manageable for you. Um, is there Um, is there Um, is there um anything that people should be uh um anything that people should be uh um anything that people should be uh conscious of regarding their posture and conscious of regarding their posture and conscious of regarding their posture and how to hold themselves? I know that some how to hold themselves? I know that some how to hold themselves? I know that some of these of these of these uh rucks sacks uh will have they'll have uh rucks sacks uh will have they'll have uh rucks sacks uh will have they'll have like chest straps and also maybe around like chest straps and also maybe around like chest straps and also maybe around the waist as well like that are intended the waist as well like that are intended the waist as well like that are intended to kind of stabilize this weight. Is to kind of stabilize this weight. Is to kind of stabilize this weight. Is that important? How do you think about that important? How do you think about that important? How do you think about that? that? that? >> Well, I think about it two ways. I mean, >> Well, I think about it two ways. I mean, >> Well, I think about it two ways. I mean, I think one, I think one, I think one, if you can just start with the backpack if you can just start with the backpack if you can just start with the backpack you have at home, that's probably the you have at home, that's probably the you have at home, that's probably the right answer in the beginning. And then right answer in the beginning. And then right answer in the beginning. And then if you enjoy it and you feel like you're if you enjoy it and you feel like you're if you enjoy it and you feel like you're benefiting from it, and I think you benefiting from it, and I think you benefiting from it, and I think you probably will, then upgrading to gear probably will, then upgrading to gear probably will, then upgrading to gear that has the hip belt and the little that has the hip belt and the little that has the hip belt and the little chest sternum strap can be useful. The chest sternum strap can be useful. The chest sternum strap can be useful. The point of those is that it just point of those is that it just point of those is that it just distributes the load uh around your body distributes the load uh around your body distributes the load uh around your body more than just entirely on your more than just entirely on your more than just entirely on your shoulder. So the hip the hip belt puts shoulder. So the hip the hip belt puts shoulder. So the hip the hip belt puts the load on your hips which are going to the load on your hips which are going to the load on your hips which are going to be more powerful. So if people have done be more powerful. So if people have done be more powerful. So if people have done long backpacking trips uh they know that long backpacking trips uh they know that long backpacking trips uh they know that like the hip belt is priceless. like the hip belt is priceless. like the hip belt is priceless. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Now if you're using a weight that isn't >> Now if you're using a weight that isn't >> Now if you're using a weight that isn't that significant like yeah it'll help a that significant like yeah it'll help a that significant like yeah it'll help a little bit but like your shoulders are little bit but like your shoulders are little bit but like your shoulders are going to be fine. I think when it comes going to be fine. I think when it comes going to be fine. I think when it comes to posture it's just like just try and to posture it's just like just try and to posture it's just like just try and walk as you normally would. You don't walk as you normally would. You don't walk as you normally would. You don't want to be leaning way too far forward. want to be leaning way too far forward. want to be leaning way too far forward. That uh suggests you have too much That uh suggests you have too much That uh suggests you have too much weight. Um, but it's also okay to be weight. Um, but it's also okay to be weight. Um, but it's also okay to be tipping forward slightly because that's tipping forward slightly because that's tipping forward slightly because that's what your body naturally does when you what your body naturally does when you what your body naturally does when you put a load on [clears throat] the back. put a load on [clears throat] the back. put a load on [clears throat] the back. >> What about footwear? Uh, it seems to me, >> What about footwear? Uh, it seems to me, >> What about footwear? Uh, it seems to me, or at least in in my limited experience or at least in in my limited experience or at least in in my limited experience of of of of doing this, that the more of of of of doing this, that the more of of of of doing this, that the more weight that you that you put on, the weight that you that you put on, the weight that you that you put on, the more important the footwear becomes. more important the footwear becomes. more important the footwear becomes. Because if you're wearing like a a high Because if you're wearing like a a high Because if you're wearing like a a high stack like running shoe, uh you're stack like running shoe, uh you're stack like running shoe, uh you're setting yourself up, especially if setting yourself up, especially if setting yourself up, especially if you're on a a dynamic trail for like you're on a a dynamic trail for like you're on a a dynamic trail for like rolling your ankle or, you know, rolling your ankle or, you know, rolling your ankle or, you know, falling, right? You want a more kind of falling, right? You want a more kind of falling, right? You want a more kind of like stable sold type of shoe for this. like stable sold type of shoe for this. like stable sold type of shoe for this. Like is there something specific that Like is there something specific that Like is there something specific that that that you prefer or how do you think that that you prefer or how do you think that that you prefer or how do you think about this? First, I'll say it's about this? First, I'll say it's about this? First, I'll say it's probably a good idea to avoid really probably a good idea to avoid really probably a good idea to avoid really minimalist shoes when you are uh walking minimalist shoes when you are uh walking minimalist shoes when you are uh walking with weight. There was a study, it was a with weight. There was a study, it was a with weight. There was a study, it was a military study. Uh, one things that's military study. Uh, one things that's military study. Uh, one things that's interesting about all this uh research I interesting about all this uh research I interesting about all this uh research I did for this book is a lot of the did for this book is a lot of the did for this book is a lot of the research comes from the military because research comes from the military because research comes from the military because it rucking is like the fundamental form it rucking is like the fundamental form it rucking is like the fundamental form of training for um soldiers. And so of training for um soldiers. And so of training for um soldiers. And so they've been studying it for years and they've been studying it for years and they've been studying it for years and just now the sort of more mainstream um just now the sort of more mainstream um just now the sort of more mainstream um research institutions are catching up. research institutions are catching up. research institutions are catching up. But there's a study that basically took But there's a study that basically took But there's a study that basically took um group of cadets. Half of them had um group of cadets. Half of them had um group of cadets. Half of them had effectively normal running shoes that effectively normal running shoes that effectively normal running shoes that are you know just sort of stable with a are you know just sort of stable with a are you know just sort of stable with a little bit of with some drop um with little bit of with some drop um with little bit of with some drop um with some arch and the other half got some arch and the other half got some arch and the other half got minimalist running shoes. And they had minimalist running shoes. And they had minimalist running shoes. And they had them rock for a while. I can't remember them rock for a while. I can't remember them rock for a while. I can't remember the exact um timeline. It was either the exact um timeline. It was either the exact um timeline. It was either like, you know, 4 8 12 weeks, something like, you know, 4 8 12 weeks, something like, you know, 4 8 12 weeks, something like that that and then they track their like that that and then they track their like that that and then they track their injury rates and uh the cadets that had injury rates and uh the cadets that had injury rates and uh the cadets that had the minimalist shoes had a significantly the minimalist shoes had a significantly the minimalist shoes had a significantly higher risk of injury. That's because higher risk of injury. That's because higher risk of injury. That's because when you're putting weight on your back, when you're putting weight on your back, when you're putting weight on your back, your feet are having to do a lot more your feet are having to do a lot more your feet are having to do a lot more work. There's just more that needs to work. There's just more that needs to work. There's just more that needs to happen. So, if you have a shoe that has happen. So, if you have a shoe that has happen. So, if you have a shoe that has some drop, some support, that takes some some drop, some support, that takes some some drop, some support, that takes some of that stress off of your feet and can of that stress off of your feet and can of that stress off of your feet and can lower your injury risk. So, I tell lower your injury risk. So, I tell lower your injury risk. So, I tell people like with shoes, it's kind of people like with shoes, it's kind of people like with shoes, it's kind of what do you think is comfortable? You what do you think is comfortable? You what do you think is comfortable? You know, find something with some know, find something with some know, find something with some stability. Find something that feels stability. Find something that feels stability. Find something that feels comfortable. Um, to your point, maybe comfortable. Um, to your point, maybe comfortable. Um, to your point, maybe not something that's on like a super not something that's on like a super not something that's on like a super high platform if you're on a trail. Um, high platform if you're on a trail. Um, high platform if you're on a trail. Um, but a lot of it honestly does just come but a lot of it honestly does just come but a lot of it honestly does just come down to comfort. But I would I would say down to comfort. But I would I would say down to comfort. But I would I would say like don't try this [ __ ] barefoot at like don't try this [ __ ] barefoot at like don't try this [ __ ] barefoot at first. [laughter] >> Yeah. But like I want to go in all >> Yeah. But like I want to go in all extreme from the get-go. It's my wiring. extreme from the get-go. It's my wiring. extreme from the get-go. It's my wiring. That's [snorts] why I'm injured. That's That's [snorts] why I'm injured. That's That's [snorts] why I'm injured. That's why I got spinal fusion surgery. why I got spinal fusion surgery. why I got spinal fusion surgery. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Here's what we'll do. I'll I'll create a >> Here's what we'll do. I'll I'll create a >> Here's what we'll do. I'll I'll create a plan to set you back another two years plan to set you back another two years plan to set you back another two years after this. And we'll just go. So we'll after this. And we'll just go. So we'll after this. And we'll just go. So we'll go [laughter] go [laughter] go [laughter] >> we'll go barefoot on >> we'll go barefoot on >> we'll go barefoot on >> right when I'm about to be able to like >> right when I'm about to be able to like >> right when I'm about to be able to like you know return to normaly like just cut you know return to normaly like just cut you know return to normaly like just cut me off at the knees. things were going me off at the knees. things were going me off at the knees. things were going so well and then I did a podcast. You so well and then I did a podcast. You so well and then I did a podcast. You know, [laughter] know, [laughter] know, [laughter] >> it's crazy how the rise in popularity in >> it's crazy how the rise in popularity in >> it's crazy how the rise in popularity in this like it it it's all down to you. I this like it it it's all down to you. I this like it it it's all down to you. I mean, you're the you're the mouthpiece mean, you're the you're the mouthpiece mean, you're the you're the mouthpiece on this whole thing. Like you've set in on this whole thing. Like you've set in on this whole thing. Like you've set in motion like this domino effect and um I motion like this domino effect and um I motion like this domino effect and um I think participation in Rucking is up think participation in Rucking is up think participation in Rucking is up something like 40% in recent years and something like 40% in recent years and something like 40% in recent years and there's been a 150% surge in social there's been a 150% surge in social there's been a 150% surge in social media engagement around this which is media engagement around this which is media engagement around this which is nuts, right? Mhm. nuts, right? Mhm. nuts, right? Mhm. >> And you're patient zero for this whole >> And you're patient zero for this whole >> And you're patient zero for this whole thing. thing. thing. >> I would say it's weird. Um >> I would say it's weird. Um >> I would say it's weird. Um because I think where it started and I'm because I think where it started and I'm because I think where it started and I'm not Yeah, I'm kind of one of those not Yeah, I'm kind of one of those not Yeah, I'm kind of one of those people. I'm just like I don't want to I people. I'm just like I don't want to I people. I'm just like I don't want to I definitely don't want to take credit definitely don't want to take credit definitely don't want to take credit because there's a lot, you know. I think because there's a lot, you know. I think because there's a lot, you know. I think what happened is that there was already what happened is that there was already what happened is that there was already people who had rocking companies and people who had rocking companies and people who had rocking companies and things like that. Um it's kind of niche. things like that. Um it's kind of niche. things like that. Um it's kind of niche. I wrote the comfort crisis. I had a I wrote the comfort crisis. I had a I wrote the comfort crisis. I had a chapter that was at the back of the book chapter that was at the back of the book chapter that was at the back of the book that that that was about wrecking and had information was about wrecking and had information was about wrecking and had information about wrecking. For whatever reason, it about wrecking. For whatever reason, it about wrecking. For whatever reason, it resonated with people. The right people resonated with people. The right people resonated with people. The right people read it who had platforms like you and read it who had platforms like you and read it who had platforms like you and they had me on and that spread the word they had me on and that spread the word they had me on and that spread the word and they started doing it and it just and they started doing it and it just and they started doing it and it just sort of had this like amplification sort of had this like amplification sort of had this like amplification effect. effect. effect. The craziest thing The craziest thing The craziest thing is when I will be in my neighborhood in is when I will be in my neighborhood in is when I will be in my neighborhood in Las Vegas and I see someone walking Las Vegas and I see someone walking Las Vegas and I see someone walking around with like a weighted pack or a around with like a weighted pack or a around with like a weighted pack or a weight vest and I see them all the time weight vest and I see them all the time weight vest and I see them all the time now. The other day I saw more people now. The other day I saw more people now. The other day I saw more people doing that than I did running doing that than I did running doing that than I did running >> and you're like that's awesome. >> and you're like that's awesome. >> and you're like that's awesome. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. [clears throat] Like real real world impact. Like real real world impact. Like real real world impact. >> That's awesome because those people are >> That's awesome because those people are >> That's awesome because those people are doing because I don't maybe doing because I don't maybe doing because I don't maybe they weren't doing anything. I think one they weren't doing anything. I think one they weren't doing anything. I think one of the things that I have loved is that of the things that I have loved is that of the things that I have loved is that I've got a lot of people say I don't I've got a lot of people say I don't I've got a lot of people say I don't like to run or I got injured running so like to run or I got injured running so like to run or I got injured running so I was doing this sort of like gym I was doing this sort of like gym I was doing this sort of like gym cardio. I hated that too. I was on the cardio. I hated that too. I was on the cardio. I hated that too. I was on the elliptical but this is the thing that I elliptical but this is the thing that I elliptical but this is the thing that I can finally do that gets me outdoors can finally do that gets me outdoors can finally do that gets me outdoors that makes me feel good that has helped that makes me feel good that has helped that makes me feel good that has helped me lose weight that has improved my me lose weight that has improved my me lose weight that has improved my fitness that has XYZ and that's awesome. fitness that has XYZ and that's awesome. fitness that has XYZ and that's awesome. That's like the coolest thing ever. You That's like the coolest thing ever. You That's like the coolest thing ever. You know, I get messages from people know, I get messages from people know, I get messages from people from women who have walking groups who from women who have walking groups who from women who have walking groups who are, you know, in their 70s and they're are, you know, in their 70s and they're are, you know, in their 70s and they're like, "Yeah, we started putting on these like, "Yeah, we started putting on these like, "Yeah, we started putting on these packs when we read the Comfort Crisis packs when we read the Comfort Crisis packs when we read the Comfort Crisis and we love it. You know, we're called and we love it. You know, we're called and we love it. You know, we're called the Mother Ruckers or whatever and the Mother Ruckers or whatever and the Mother Ruckers or whatever and you're just like, "Hell yeah, you're just like, "Hell yeah, you're just like, "Hell yeah, >> the mother ruckers." >> the mother ruckers." >> the mother ruckers." >> Yeah, it's it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. >> Yeah, it's it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. >> Yeah, it's it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. But like like I said though, it doesn't But like like I said though, it doesn't But like like I said though, it doesn't it doesn't happen unless there's people it doesn't happen unless there's people it doesn't happen unless there's people like you as well who are willing to talk like you as well who are willing to talk like you as well who are willing to talk to me and then that gets amplified and to me and then that gets amplified and to me and then that gets amplified and it goes, you know, it's like a big it goes, you know, it's like a big it goes, you know, it's like a big network effect really. network effect really. network effect really. >> Yeah, it's cool. I mean, the older I >> Yeah, it's cool. I mean, the older I >> Yeah, it's cool. I mean, the older I get, get, get, my fitness goals are really around, you my fitness goals are really around, you my fitness goals are really around, you know, kind of just longevity and being know, kind of just longevity and being know, kind of just longevity and being like adventure ready. Like I I don't like adventure ready. Like I I don't like adventure ready. Like I I don't need to go do any kind of crazy thing need to go do any kind of crazy thing need to go do any kind of crazy thing anymore. I I did that and I learned what anymore. I I did that and I learned what anymore. I I did that and I learned what I needed to learn. and I don't need to I needed to learn. and I don't need to I needed to learn. and I don't need to continue to tap that well. And in the continue to tap that well. And in the continue to tap that well. And in the wake of this surgery, it's just like I wake of this surgery, it's just like I wake of this surgery, it's just like I want to be sound in mind, body, spirit want to be sound in mind, body, spirit want to be sound in mind, body, spirit as best as I can. And you know, I'm as best as I can. And you know, I'm as best as I can. And you know, I'm going to turn 60 in the fall. And you going to turn 60 in the fall. And you going to turn 60 in the fall. And you know, I need to think about these things know, I need to think about these things know, I need to think about these things differently than than I ever have. I differently than than I ever have. I differently than than I ever have. I can't expect to recover the way that I can't expect to recover the way that I can't expect to recover the way that I used to. uh and and uh you know I just used to. uh and and uh you know I just used to. uh and and uh you know I just want to be able to you know enjoy my want to be able to you know enjoy my want to be able to you know enjoy my life for as long as possible and you life for as long as possible and you life for as long as possible and you know experience the breadth of know experience the breadth of know experience the breadth of experiences that are available to me and experiences that are available to me and experiences that are available to me and things like swimming and rucking that things like swimming and rucking that things like swimming and rucking that are you know gentler on the body but are you know gentler on the body but are you know gentler on the body but also producing the same you know these also producing the same you know these also producing the same you know these these fitness effects are you know these fitness effects are you know these fitness effects are you know becoming increasingly more important to becoming increasingly more important to becoming increasingly more important to me. me. me. >> Yeah. I think it's like what exercise >> Yeah. I think it's like what exercise >> Yeah. I think it's like what exercise can you do in 20 years is probably the can you do in 20 years is probably the can you do in 20 years is probably the one you should be doing now. Sure, one you should be doing now. Sure, one you should be doing now. Sure, >> your intensity >> your intensity >> your intensity >> sure >> sure >> sure >> might be different, but I'm kind of >> might be different, but I'm kind of >> might be different, but I'm kind of wired the same way where I've you know wired the same way where I've you know wired the same way where I've you know gone out and done things that definitely gone out and done things that definitely gone out and done things that definitely took a toll and um now I'm kind of I took a toll and um now I'm kind of I took a toll and um now I'm kind of I don't know if I'm totally done with that don't know if I'm totally done with that don't know if I'm totally done with that unfortunately. Um, but I am starting to unfortunately. Um, but I am starting to unfortunately. Um, but I am starting to think of like think of like think of like I notice myself making different I notice myself making different I notice myself making different decisions about how much weight am I decisions about how much weight am I decisions about how much weight am I going to take when I do this rock. Do I going to take when I do this rock. Do I going to take when I do this rock. Do I really want to do that lifting exercise? really want to do that lifting exercise? really want to do that lifting exercise? Like what is is there a safer Like what is is there a safer Like what is is there a safer alternative that I could do? Do I need alternative that I could do? Do I need alternative that I could do? Do I need to end this weight workout with some to end this weight workout with some to end this weight workout with some finisher that brings me to the cusp of finisher that brings me to the cusp of finisher that brings me to the cusp of death? Like, no, I I'll probably be death? Like, no, I I'll probably be death? Like, no, I I'll probably be okay. I'm thinking a little more long okay. I'm thinking a little more long okay. I'm thinking a little more long term. I do think one of the things I term. I do think one of the things I term. I do think one of the things I love about um love about um love about um walking with weight is there's uh I walking with weight is there's uh I walking with weight is there's uh I think it's has a lot of social think it's has a lot of social think it's has a lot of social components components components in the sense that I could go for a walk in the sense that I could go for a walk in the sense that I could go for a walk with my mom who's 70 with my mom who's 70 with my mom who's 70 and I could take say 35 lb 40 lb she and I could take say 35 lb 40 lb she and I could take say 35 lb 40 lb she could take 10. we would both get a could take 10. we would both get a could take 10. we would both get a workout that's going to be challenging workout that's going to be challenging workout that's going to be challenging for us but not soul crushing and along for us but not soul crushing and along for us but not soul crushing and along the way we can have a conversation. the way we can have a conversation. the way we can have a conversation. You know, I couldn't run with my mom. I You know, I couldn't run with my mom. I You know, I couldn't run with my mom. I couldn't cycle with my mom. I could go couldn't cycle with my mom. I could go couldn't cycle with my mom. I could go just walk alone with my mom. That'd be just walk alone with my mom. That'd be just walk alone with my mom. That'd be fine, but by adding the pack now, we're fine, but by adding the pack now, we're fine, but by adding the pack now, we're both getting a little more out of it. Um both getting a little more out of it. Um both getting a little more out of it. Um >> I'm friends with Have you ever had John >> I'm friends with Have you ever had John >> I'm friends with Have you ever had John Deloney on the podcast? Deloney on the podcast? Deloney on the podcast? >> Mm- >> Mm- >> Mm- >> Okay. He's got a great podcast. Um he's >> Okay. He's got a great podcast. Um he's >> Okay. He's got a great podcast. Um he's with the Ramsay Network, a relationship with the Ramsay Network, a relationship with the Ramsay Network, a relationship guy. Uh doctor, I should call him Dr. guy. Uh doctor, I should call him Dr. guy. Uh doctor, I should call him Dr. John Deloney. I'll give him his credit John Deloney. I'll give him his credit John Deloney. I'll give him his credit for all those years he spent spent in for all those years he spent spent in for all those years he spent spent in school. school. school. >> He's talked about on his podcast how he >> He's talked about on his podcast how he >> He's talked about on his podcast how he always felt like, I need to work out. I always felt like, I need to work out. I always felt like, I need to work out. I need to work out. You know, he's got need to work out. You know, he's got need to work out. You know, he's got kind of that wiring that you and I do. kind of that wiring that you and I do. kind of that wiring that you and I do. But then he would feel like he was But then he would feel like he was But then he would feel like he was giving up family time because he needed giving up family time because he needed giving up family time because he needed to work out. And so when he would get to work out. And so when he would get to work out. And so when he would get that family time, he'd be sitting in his that family time, he'd be sitting in his that family time, he'd be sitting in his head going, "Man, I've skipped that head going, "Man, I've skipped that head going, "Man, I've skipped that workout." workout." workout." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Damn me. And he realized, you know what? >> Damn me. And he realized, you know what? >> Damn me. And he realized, you know what? I can just throw on a pack and my wife I can just throw on a pack and my wife I can just throw on a pack and my wife and I can go out and go for a 2-hour and I can go out and go for a 2-hour and I can go out and go for a 2-hour walk. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting walk. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting walk. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting this time to connect with my wife, but this time to connect with my wife, but this time to connect with my wife, but I'm also getting in a workout cuz I've I'm also getting in a workout cuz I've I'm also getting in a workout cuz I've got this pack on. We can still have a got this pack on. We can still have a got this pack on. We can still have a conversation. conversation. conversation. And it's allowed him to get in those And it's allowed him to get in those And it's allowed him to get in those workouts while still accomplishing these workouts while still accomplishing these workouts while still accomplishing these other social aspects. And I think that's other social aspects. And I think that's other social aspects. And I think that's awesome. awesome. awesome. >> I've been thinking a lot about >> I've been thinking a lot about >> I've been thinking a lot about my relationship to my own creature my relationship to my own creature my relationship to my own creature comforts and also to uh my relationship comforts and also to uh my relationship comforts and also to uh my relationship with being outside of my comfort zone. with being outside of my comfort zone. with being outside of my comfort zone. And one of the things that I've And one of the things that I've And one of the things that I've recognized and acknowledged about recognized and acknowledged about recognized and acknowledged about [clears throat] myself is that [clears throat] myself is that [clears throat] myself is that many of these things that are considered many of these things that are considered many of these things that are considered outside of my comfort zone have become outside of my comfort zone have become outside of my comfort zone have become my comfort zone. Like I would much my comfort zone. Like I would much my comfort zone. Like I would much rather go out and like train all day or rather go out and like train all day or rather go out and like train all day or do a crazy race than do what is truly do a crazy race than do what is truly do a crazy race than do what is truly uncomfortable for me like stare into my uncomfortable for me like stare into my uncomfortable for me like stare into my wife's eyes and tell her all my fears or wife's eyes and tell her all my fears or wife's eyes and tell her all my fears or you know like like go to go to a very you know like like go to go to a very you know like like go to go to a very intense you know kind of therapy retreat intense you know kind of therapy retreat intense you know kind of therapy retreat or or something like that. You know what or or something like that. You know what or or something like that. You know what I mean? Like your comfort zone morphs. I mean? Like your comfort zone morphs. I mean? Like your comfort zone morphs. And I think the problem with someone And I think the problem with someone And I think the problem with someone like myself, like an endurance, like oh, like myself, like an endurance, like oh, like myself, like an endurance, like oh, an ultra endurance athlete, is that like an ultra endurance athlete, is that like an ultra endurance athlete, is that like you go and you do these things and you go and you do these things and you go and you do these things and there's a lot of external validation there's a lot of external validation there's a lot of external validation that comes with that and everybody's that comes with that and everybody's that comes with that and everybody's like, oh, he's so far outside of his like, oh, he's so far outside of his like, oh, he's so far outside of his comfort zone and it's like, yeah, but am comfort zone and it's like, yeah, but am comfort zone and it's like, yeah, but am I? You know what I mean? And then you I? You know what I mean? And then you I? You know what I mean? And then you you end up staying there and then it you end up staying there and then it you end up staying there and then it becomes a a very comfortable zone for becomes a a very comfortable zone for becomes a a very comfortable zone for you. And I don't know that there's you. And I don't know that there's you. And I don't know that there's enough conversation around that. You enough conversation around that. You enough conversation around that. You know, it's you can get stuck and then it know, it's you can get stuck and then it know, it's you can get stuck and then it becomes an impediment to your growth becomes an impediment to your growth becomes an impediment to your growth potential as a human, you know, and in potential as a human, you know, and in potential as a human, you know, and in in all aspects of like mind, body, in all aspects of like mind, body, in all aspects of like mind, body, spirit well-being. Do you think about spirit well-being. Do you think about spirit well-being. Do you think about this like what is your perspective on this like what is your perspective on this like what is your perspective on that as somebody who like me is is prone that as somebody who like me is is prone that as somebody who like me is is prone to these extremes and likes to explore to these extremes and likes to explore to these extremes and likes to explore them? I will say I think I've had the them? I will say I think I've had the them? I will say I think I've had the same experience that you do. Can hear a same experience that you do. Can hear a same experience that you do. Can hear a little bit of myself in there where it's little bit of myself in there where it's little bit of myself in there where it's like, like, like, you want to go on a 45day hike? Yeah. you want to go on a 45day hike? Yeah. you want to go on a 45day hike? Yeah. You know, it's Yeah, it's going to be You know, it's Yeah, it's going to be You know, it's Yeah, it's going to be really hard, but like I assume I can really hard, but like I assume I can really hard, but like I assume I can probably manage it. And I kind of love probably manage it. And I kind of love probably manage it. And I kind of love that zone where it's like, hey, do you that zone where it's like, hey, do you that zone where it's like, hey, do you want to go on a meditation retreat for a want to go on a meditation retreat for a want to go on a meditation retreat for a day? And I'm like, that's going to I day? And I'm like, that's going to I day? And I'm like, that's going to I don't know about that. You know, we're don't know about that. You know, we're don't know about that. You know, we're talking talking talking >> like go to the dark cave retreat place. >> like go to the dark cave retreat place. >> like go to the dark cave retreat place. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Exactly, >> Exactly, >> Exactly, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Or do you want to go have dinner with >> Or do you want to go have dinner with >> Or do you want to go have dinner with the neighbors? And I'm like, what the the neighbors? And I'm like, what the the neighbors? And I'm like, what the hell am I going to say? You know, it's hell am I going to say? You know, it's hell am I going to say? You know, it's like that's like that's like that's I think you're totally on to something. I think you're totally on to something. I think you're totally on to something. I wrote about um I had someone, one of I wrote about um I had someone, one of I wrote about um I had someone, one of my substack people, cuz I write about my substack people, cuz I write about my substack people, cuz I write about masogi a lot on that and masogi a lot on that and masogi a lot on that and they were like, "Well, I ran a marathon they were like, "Well, I ran a marathon they were like, "Well, I ran a marathon and that was my misoge. finished it and and that was my misoge. finished it and and that was my misoge. finished it and then I did a 50 mileer, then I did a 100 then I did a 50 mileer, then I did a 100 then I did a 50 mileer, then I did a 100 mileer. Like, do I just keep going 200? mileer. Like, do I just keep going 200? mileer. Like, do I just keep going 200? I'm like, well, it sounds like you're I'm like, well, it sounds like you're I'm like, well, it sounds like you're good on the running. Sounds like you've good on the running. Sounds like you've good on the running. Sounds like you've kind of accomplished that. I think the kind of accomplished that. I think the kind of accomplished that. I think the question is, you know, what what is that question is, you know, what what is that question is, you know, what what is that thing that you fear thing that you fear thing that you fear that's really out of your comfort zone? that's really out of your comfort zone? that's really out of your comfort zone? Because it sounds like that the running Because it sounds like that the running Because it sounds like that the running thing has become the comfort zone for thing has become the comfort zone for thing has become the comfort zone for that person even though it is going to that person even though it is going to that person even though it is going to be uncomfortable to your point. And so, be uncomfortable to your point. And so, be uncomfortable to your point. And so, how can you start to sort of dabble in how can you start to sort of dabble in how can you start to sort of dabble in that? And I struggle with that for sure, that? And I struggle with that for sure, that? And I struggle with that for sure, but I'm I'm trying to be better. I've but I'm I'm trying to be better. I've but I'm I'm trying to be better. I've always been kind of like a social always been kind of like a social always been kind of like a social hermit. And I realized hermit. And I realized hermit. And I realized >> I need to get out a little more. And so, >> I need to get out a little more. And so, >> I need to get out a little more. And so, I've started to connect with people in I've started to connect with people in I've started to connect with people in Vegas and do things like that. And I Vegas and do things like that. And I Vegas and do things like that. And I will say at first I was like, why am I will say at first I was like, why am I will say at first I was like, why am I doing this? doing this? doing this? >> What am I going to talk about? But but >> What am I going to talk about? But but >> What am I going to talk about? But but then it's like you give that enough time then it's like you give that enough time then it's like you give that enough time and you sit there and then all of a and you sit there and then all of a and you sit there and then all of a sudden the the magic starts to happen, sudden the the magic starts to happen, sudden the the magic starts to happen, you know? you know? you know? But marinating in that and and really But marinating in that and and really But marinating in that and and really trying to get honest with yourself uh is trying to get honest with yourself uh is trying to get honest with yourself uh is to realize uh how you know astute we can to realize uh how you know astute we can to realize uh how you know astute we can be at like lying to ourselves. You know be at like lying to ourselves. You know be at like lying to ourselves. You know what I mean? Like oh I'm doing what I mean? Like oh I'm doing what I mean? Like oh I'm doing [clears throat] this. You know what I [clears throat] this. You know what I [clears throat] this. You know what I mean? mean? mean? >> When you get down to brass tax and >> When you get down to brass tax and >> When you get down to brass tax and you're and and you really do like a a you're and and you really do like a a you're and and you really do like a a fearless inventory on your motivations fearless inventory on your motivations fearless inventory on your motivations like are you running towards something like are you running towards something like are you running towards something or are you running away from something? or are you running away from something? or are you running away from something? And I think, you know, the litmus test And I think, you know, the litmus test And I think, you know, the litmus test question is really like what are you question is really like what are you question is really like what are you avoiding? You know, cuz every choice you avoiding? You know, cuz every choice you avoiding? You know, cuz every choice you make is is on some level in an attempt make is is on some level in an attempt make is is on some level in an attempt to avoid something else, right? And so to avoid something else, right? And so to avoid something else, right? And so getting clear on the things that you're getting clear on the things that you're getting clear on the things that you're most prone to avoid is a pretty good um most prone to avoid is a pretty good um most prone to avoid is a pretty good um bellweather for, you know, where your bellweather for, you know, where your bellweather for, you know, where your comforts are and where your discomforts comforts are and where your discomforts comforts are and where your discomforts are. are. are. >> Yeah. I had a friend who's worked with a >> Yeah. I had a friend who's worked with a >> Yeah. I had a friend who's worked with a lot of people getting sober and he told lot of people getting sober and he told lot of people getting sober and he told me, me, me, "All these people I've helped, all of "All these people I've helped, all of "All these people I've helped, all of them, it all just comes down to them, it all just comes down to them, it all just comes down to people don't want to be alone and they people don't want to be alone and they people don't want to be alone and they want to be loved. That's what it all want to be loved. That's what it all want to be loved. That's what it all comes down to." comes down to." comes down to." And I feel like if you start to look at And I feel like if you start to look at And I feel like if you start to look at what you're avoiding there, for me at what you're avoiding there, for me at what you're avoiding there, for me at least, there's a lot of times an least, there's a lot of times an least, there's a lot of times an underlying fear about rejection, underlying fear about rejection, underlying fear about rejection, that I'm going to be alone, that I'm going to be alone, that I'm going to be alone, >> that I'm not going to be loved. Testing >> that I'm not going to be loved. Testing >> that I'm not going to be loved. Testing that when I can, when I'm brave enough, that when I can, when I'm brave enough, that when I can, when I'm brave enough, uh has been I think has been useful for uh has been I think has been useful for uh has been I think has been useful for me. doesn't always go perfectly, but but me. doesn't always go perfectly, but but me. doesn't always go perfectly, but but I think it's um you know and and like I think it's um you know and and like I think it's um you know and and like look sometimes you have to look sometimes you have to look sometimes you have to >> that is like an act of getting out of >> that is like an act of getting out of >> that is like an act of getting out of your comfort zone and forcing your hand your comfort zone and forcing your hand your comfort zone and forcing your hand and not um and not um and not um like sometimes you just got to get into like sometimes you just got to get into like sometimes you just got to get into position where things might be scary to position where things might be scary to position where things might be scary to learn learn learn this sort of greater truth. You know, this sort of greater truth. You know, this sort of greater truth. You know, getting out of my physical comfort zone getting out of my physical comfort zone getting out of my physical comfort zone is so much easier than getting out of my is so much easier than getting out of my is so much easier than getting out of my emotional comfort zone. and you know I emotional comfort zone. and you know I emotional comfort zone. and you know I will go do all of those things because will go do all of those things because will go do all of those things because on some level the kind of approval that on some level the kind of approval that on some level the kind of approval that is baked into that serves that need to is baked into that serves that need to is baked into that serves that need to feel loved. You know what I mean? feel loved. You know what I mean? feel loved. You know what I mean? Whereas if you allow yourself to be Whereas if you allow yourself to be Whereas if you allow yourself to be emotionally vulnerable in a in a risky emotionally vulnerable in a in a risky emotionally vulnerable in a in a risky situation, you're risking that that situation, you're risking that that situation, you're risking that that love, right? Like you you you're not love, right? Like you you you're not love, right? Like you you you're not sure how that's going to play out. sure how that's going to play out. sure how that's going to play out. >> Yeah. And that's for me at least and I >> Yeah. And that's for me at least and I >> Yeah. And that's for me at least and I think [clears throat] probably for a lot think [clears throat] probably for a lot think [clears throat] probably for a lot of people like more uncomfortable than of people like more uncomfortable than of people like more uncomfortable than like setting the alarm a half an hour like setting the alarm a half an hour like setting the alarm a half an hour earlier or like making sure you go to earlier or like making sure you go to earlier or like making sure you go to the gym, you know, these these sorts of the gym, you know, these these sorts of the gym, you know, these these sorts of things that we tend to associate as, you things that we tend to associate as, you things that we tend to associate as, you know, being outside your comfort zone know, being outside your comfort zone know, being outside your comfort zone type of behaviors and activities. type of behaviors and activities. type of behaviors and activities. >> Yeah, I think so. And I think sometimes >> Yeah, I think so. And I think sometimes >> Yeah, I think so. And I think sometimes like when people begin to for lack of a like when people begin to for lack of a like when people begin to for lack of a better term clean up their life when better term clean up their life when better term clean up their life when things like exercise or whatever it things like exercise or whatever it things like exercise or whatever it might be get adopted might be get adopted might be get adopted um it definitely helps but at a certain um it definitely helps but at a certain um it definitely helps but at a certain point if it sort of keeps getting pushed point if it sort of keeps getting pushed point if it sort of keeps getting pushed it can be its own sort of escape. it can be its own sort of escape. it can be its own sort of escape. >> Sure. Sure. I feel like we, you know, >> Sure. Sure. I feel like we, you know, >> Sure. Sure. I feel like we, you know, you and I are are are blessed with tools you and I are are are blessed with tools you and I are are are blessed with tools that allow us to recognize that in that allow us to recognize that in that allow us to recognize that in ourselves because of because of recovery ourselves because of because of recovery ourselves because of because of recovery because I'll use anything compulsively because I'll use anything compulsively because I'll use anything compulsively as a as a means to not feel or check as a as a means to not feel or check as a as a means to not feel or check out. You know, it can be anything out. You know, it can be anything out. You know, it can be anything literally. This this entire podcast I've literally. This this entire podcast I've literally. This this entire podcast I've I've made this joke many times before. I've made this joke many times before. I've made this joke many times before. [laughter] It's like it's a ruse to [laughter] It's like it's a ruse to [laughter] It's like it's a ruse to avoid writing or having to do other avoid writing or having to do other avoid writing or having to do other things. You know what I mean? Um, things. You know what I mean? Um, things. You know what I mean? Um, so I guess the point I'm making is that so I guess the point I'm making is that so I guess the point I'm making is that comfort zones and discomfort come in in comfort zones and discomfort come in in comfort zones and discomfort come in in a complexity of of colors and shades, a complexity of of colors and shades, a complexity of of colors and shades, right? And and developing an astuteness right? And and developing an astuteness right? And and developing an astuteness and awareness of that, I think, can be a and awareness of that, I think, can be a and awareness of that, I think, can be a powerful tool to think about the powerful tool to think about the powerful tool to think about the decisions and the behaviors that you're decisions and the behaviors that you're decisions and the behaviors that you're engaging with in your life. engaging with in your life. engaging with in your life. >> Yeah, I think you're spot on with that. >> Yeah, I think you're spot on with that. >> Yeah, I think you're spot on with that. >> How's the recovery going? >> How's the recovery going? >> How's the recovery going? >> It's good. Yeah. >> It's good. Yeah. >> It's good. Yeah. >> Yeah. Got a good group of guys in Vegas. >> Yeah. Got a good group of guys in Vegas. >> Yeah. Got a good group of guys in Vegas. Wonderful group. Wonderful group. Wonderful group. I'm definitely the least tattooed among I'm definitely the least tattooed among I'm definitely the least tattooed among the group, but I feel I still feel home. the group, but I feel I still feel home. the group, but I feel I still feel home. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um yeah, it's good, man. It's you know, Um yeah, it's good, man. It's you know, Um yeah, it's good, man. It's you know, it's a everyday just it's a everyday just it's a everyday just peeling the onion, if you will. You have peeling the onion, if you will. You have peeling the onion, if you will. You have ups and downs. Um I like to kind of ups and downs. Um I like to kind of ups and downs. Um I like to kind of compare it since I got sober to life compare it since I got sober to life compare it since I got sober to life kind of being like the stock market. kind of being like the stock market. kind of being like the stock market. Some days it spikes, some days it goes Some days it spikes, some days it goes Some days it spikes, some days it goes down. But if you pull back in the long down. But if you pull back in the long down. But if you pull back in the long arc of time since I got sober, that line arc of time since I got sober, that line arc of time since I got sober, that line has just gone crazy up over time. has just gone crazy up over time. has just gone crazy up over time. >> You don't have the the the spikes that >> You don't have the the the spikes that >> You don't have the the the spikes that you had when you were when you were out you had when you were when you were out you had when you were when you were out there, though. You know, it's like like there, though. You know, it's like like there, though. You know, it's like like it's much it's a much, you know, the the it's much it's a much, you know, the the it's much it's a much, you know, the the spectrum of ups and downs is much more spectrum of ups and downs is much more spectrum of ups and downs is much more compressed. compressed. compressed. >> Yeah. Lows aren't as low >> Yeah. Lows aren't as low >> Yeah. Lows aren't as low >> for sure. Um, for me, I've had to kind >> for sure. Um, for me, I've had to kind >> for sure. Um, for me, I've had to kind of like relearn how to have fun and how of like relearn how to have fun and how of like relearn how to have fun and how to just like let off. Cuz for me, to just like let off. Cuz for me, to just like let off. Cuz for me, drinking was like drinking was like drinking was like that's what made me feel comfortable and that's what made me feel comfortable and that's what made me feel comfortable and like I could connect with another person like I could connect with another person like I could connect with another person totally, you know? It's like if you just totally, you know? It's like if you just totally, you know? It's like if you just put me in a smoky bar that plays George put me in a smoky bar that plays George put me in a smoky bar that plays George Jones and there's a bartender who's Jones and there's a bartender who's Jones and there's a bartender who's going to keep that place open all night. going to keep that place open all night. going to keep that place open all night. That was like heaven to me. all was That was like heaven to me. all was That was like heaven to me. all was right with the world. right with the world. right with the world. >> And so when that goes away, then it's >> And so when that goes away, then it's >> And so when that goes away, then it's like, well, where the hell do I find like, well, where the hell do I find like, well, where the hell do I find that? Turns out it's a lot harder to that? Turns out it's a lot harder to that? Turns out it's a lot harder to find that by doing all the internal find that by doing all the internal find that by doing all the internal work, but I do think it gets deeper and work, but I do think it gets deeper and work, but I do think it gets deeper and it's more interesting. That's for me. it's more interesting. That's for me. it's more interesting. That's for me. What's been your experience? What's been your experience? What's been your experience? >> Um, yeah, over the long stretch of time, >> Um, yeah, over the long stretch of time, >> Um, yeah, over the long stretch of time, it's just been, you know, an upward it's just been, you know, an upward it's just been, you know, an upward trajectory. Um, but it's not a linear trajectory. Um, but it's not a linear trajectory. Um, but it's not a linear thing, you know, at all. And uh I've thing, you know, at all. And uh I've thing, you know, at all. And uh I've gone through phases of of of kind of gone through phases of of of kind of gone through phases of of of kind of being detached from it and phases of being detached from it and phases of being detached from it and phases of being really plugged in. Uh and I've being really plugged in. Uh and I've being really plugged in. Uh and I've had, you know, I've had I've had every had, you know, I've had I've had every had, you know, I've had I've had every variety of experience in it. And I variety of experience in it. And I variety of experience in it. And I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for anything, you know. Um it is like the anything, you know. Um it is like the anything, you know. Um it is like the most, you know, I I consider, you know, most, you know, I I consider, you know, most, you know, I I consider, you know, my sobriety the most important thing my sobriety the most important thing my sobriety the most important thing because without that, I don't have because without that, I don't have because without that, I don't have anything. and and and I'll vacasillate anything. and and and I'll vacasillate anything. and and and I'll vacasillate in how plugged in I am to the program in how plugged in I am to the program in how plugged in I am to the program and to the people. Um but always in my and to the people. Um but always in my and to the people. Um but always in my mind, I never doubt that I need it or mind, I never doubt that I need it or mind, I never doubt that I need it or that I'm like over it or healed or that I'm like over it or healed or that I'm like over it or healed or cured. Uh and as simple and as annoying cured. Uh and as simple and as annoying cured. Uh and as simple and as annoying as so many of those slogans and the as so many of those slogans and the as so many of those slogans and the steps and the tools can be, there's a steps and the tools can be, there's a steps and the tools can be, there's a vastness to it. They have the capacity vastness to it. They have the capacity vastness to it. They have the capacity to kind of handle everything. And um to kind of handle everything. And um to kind of handle everything. And um there's still, you know, like there's still, you know, like there's still, you know, like there's it it's still the primary there's it it's still the primary there's it it's still the primary blueprint for for how I live. blueprint for for how I live. blueprint for for how I live. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Every day. And uh >> Every day. And uh >> Every day. And uh >> same here. >> same here. >> same here. >> And yeah, you know, I can be >> And yeah, you know, I can be >> And yeah, you know, I can be misanthropic, you know, like not as misanthropic, you know, like not as misanthropic, you know, like not as social as I as I was back then, but I'm social as I as I was back then, but I'm social as I as I was back then, but I'm okay with that, too. And my priorities okay with that, too. And my priorities okay with that, too. And my priorities in life are different. in life are different. in life are different. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> yeah, that's that's about where I am. >> yeah, that's that's about where I am. >> yeah, that's that's about where I am. >> What are like your daily >> What are like your daily >> What are like your daily non-negotiables? non-negotiables? non-negotiables? Pretty simple. I write every day. Pretty simple. I write every day. Pretty simple. I write every day. >> No matter what. >> No matter what. >> No matter what. >> Yeah. No matter what. I I mean I'm >> Yeah. No matter what. I I mean I'm >> Yeah. No matter what. I I mean I'm luckily I'm a I have a weird sleep luckily I'm a I have a weird sleep luckily I'm a I have a weird sleep schedule where I'll fall asleep at 8 and schedule where I'll fall asleep at 8 and schedule where I'll fall asleep at 8 and wake up at like 3:30. And so I have wake up at like 3:30. And so I have wake up at like 3:30. And so I have >> I do that too. I did that today. >> I do that too. I did that today. >> I do that too. I did that today. >> Did you? Awesome. [laughter] >> Did you? Awesome. [laughter] >> Did you? Awesome. [laughter] >> Your publisher will love hearing that. >> Your publisher will love hearing that. >> Your publisher will love hearing that. And so I have 4 hours of writing before And so I have 4 hours of writing before And so I have 4 hours of writing before things start to happen. And I love that things start to happen. And I love that things start to happen. And I love that time. just like me, the dog sleeping, time. just like me, the dog sleeping, time. just like me, the dog sleeping, coffee, and I can just kind of like zone coffee, and I can just kind of like zone coffee, and I can just kind of like zone in and figure things out. in and figure things out. in and figure things out. Like I wrote on Christmas morning, you Like I wrote on Christmas morning, you Like I wrote on Christmas morning, you know, I was up 3:30 a.m. on Christmas know, I was up 3:30 a.m. on Christmas know, I was up 3:30 a.m. on Christmas morning and wife and family woke up at, morning and wife and family woke up at, morning and wife and family woke up at, you know, 7:30. I'd gotten in 4 hours of you know, 7:30. I'd gotten in 4 hours of you know, 7:30. I'd gotten in 4 hours of writing. Like, there's no better way to writing. Like, there's no better way to writing. Like, there's no better way to spend a Christmas to me. Like, people spend a Christmas to me. Like, people spend a Christmas to me. Like, people sell it's like work. It's like, no, sell it's like work. It's like, no, sell it's like work. It's like, no, that's not like, yes, that's how I make that's not like, yes, that's how I make that's not like, yes, that's how I make a living, but it's also how I live, you a living, but it's also how I live, you a living, but it's also how I live, you know? That's kind of one of the things know? That's kind of one of the things know? That's kind of one of the things that really makes me feel alive is like that really makes me feel alive is like that really makes me feel alive is like getting despite the hell of it, it's getting despite the hell of it, it's getting despite the hell of it, it's like you get the right sentence, you get like you get the right sentence, you get like you get the right sentence, you get the right thing to flow, you connect the the right thing to flow, you connect the the right thing to flow, you connect the thing, and it's just like bam, this is thing, and it's just like bam, this is thing, and it's just like bam, this is awesome. Um, so that's I would say my awesome. Um, so that's I would say my awesome. Um, so that's I would say my non-negotiable. And then I rest of that, non-negotiable. And then I rest of that, non-negotiable. And then I rest of that, I mean, I try and exercise every day. It I mean, I try and exercise every day. It I mean, I try and exercise every day. It doesn't always happen. I'm pretty soft doesn't always happen. I'm pretty soft doesn't always happen. I'm pretty soft on myself now. I used to be like hard on on myself now. I used to be like hard on on myself now. I used to be like hard on myself if I missed a workout or I would myself if I missed a workout or I would myself if I missed a workout or I would like like like >> insert it at a time that was selfish. >> insert it at a time that was selfish. >> insert it at a time that was selfish. You know, there's [ __ ] going on and I'm You know, there's [ __ ] going on and I'm You know, there's [ __ ] going on and I'm like, I got to go work out. My wife has like, I got to go work out. My wife has like, I got to go work out. My wife has to deal with the dog or who's going to deal with the dog or who's going to deal with the dog or who's going crazy or whatever it might be or some crazy or whatever it might be or some crazy or whatever it might be or some other thing. And I think I'm better at other thing. And I think I'm better at other thing. And I think I'm better at realizing, you know what, you're going realizing, you know what, you're going realizing, you know what, you're going to survive if you don't do this bike to survive if you don't do this bike to survive if you don't do this bike workout for 45 minutes. You'll be fine. workout for 45 minutes. You'll be fine. workout for 45 minutes. You'll be fine. >> What about you? >> What about you? >> What about you? >> I mean, it's similar. I think that the >> I mean, it's similar. I think that the >> I mean, it's similar. I think that the maybe the difference for me is um I mean maybe the difference for me is um I mean maybe the difference for me is um I mean recovering from this surgery has has recovering from this surgery has has recovering from this surgery has has reframed my kind of obsessive reframed my kind of obsessive reframed my kind of obsessive relationship with fitness because I've relationship with fitness because I've relationship with fitness because I've been forced to not do anything other been forced to not do anything other been forced to not do anything other than walk uh walk without weight uh I than walk uh walk without weight uh I than walk uh walk without weight uh I should say. Now I'm slowly emerging from should say. Now I'm slowly emerging from should say. Now I'm slowly emerging from that and I have this opportunity to that and I have this opportunity to that and I have this opportunity to redefine my relationship to fitness redefine my relationship to fitness redefine my relationship to fitness which is sort of exciting. I'm actually which is sort of exciting. I'm actually which is sort of exciting. I'm actually gonna have um Kelly Starret come down gonna have um Kelly Starret come down gonna have um Kelly Starret come down and teach me all sorts of stuff that I and teach me all sorts of stuff that I and teach me all sorts of stuff that I need to learn, you know, and and I have need to learn, you know, and and I have need to learn, you know, and and I have this unique opportunity to kind of this unique opportunity to kind of this unique opportunity to kind of rebuild my body from the ground up, rebuild my body from the ground up, rebuild my body from the ground up, >> which is exciting. Uh cuz it's like >> which is exciting. Uh cuz it's like >> which is exciting. Uh cuz it's like wiping the slate clean. Like I'm wiping the slate clean. Like I'm wiping the slate clean. Like I'm completely starting over. completely starting over. completely starting over. >> Like forget about everything I've done. >> Like forget about everything I've done. >> Like forget about everything I've done. Like how do I stand properly? How do I Like how do I stand properly? How do I Like how do I stand properly? How do I walk? You know, like beginner's mind walk? You know, like beginner's mind walk? You know, like beginner's mind with all of that, which is exciting. But with all of that, which is exciting. But with all of that, which is exciting. But one of the things that that challenges one of the things that that challenges one of the things that that challenges me is that I am I'm a morning person me is that I am I'm a morning person me is that I am I'm a morning person also and that's when I am my most also and that's when I am my most also and that's when I am my most creative but it's also the time that uh creative but it's also the time that uh creative but it's also the time that uh I really want to work out you know I really want to work out you know I really want to work out you know [laughter] like once you know once I [laughter] like once you know once I [laughter] like once you know once I start writing or the workday starts it's start writing or the workday starts it's start writing or the workday starts it's it's it's much more difficult to make it's it's much more difficult to make it's it's much more difficult to make sure that I you know get that physical sure that I you know get that physical sure that I you know get that physical exercise in. Um, so these two things exercise in. Um, so these two things exercise in. Um, so these two things often are at loggerheads with each often are at loggerheads with each often are at loggerheads with each other, like should I work out, should I other, like should I work out, should I other, like should I work out, should I write, you know, and so I'm I'm I have I write, you know, and so I'm I'm I have I write, you know, and so I'm I'm I have I get decision fatigue around that. And get decision fatigue around that. And get decision fatigue around that. And now I'm just solving it by saying, okay, now I'm just solving it by saying, okay, now I'm just solving it by saying, okay, I'm going to work out first, but I'm I'm going to work out first, but I'm I'm going to work out first, but I'm going to I I'm restricting the amount of going to I I'm restricting the amount of going to I I'm restricting the amount of time time time >> cuz left in my own devices, I'll just >> cuz left in my own devices, I'll just >> cuz left in my own devices, I'll just I'll go too long or whatever. Uh, and I'll go too long or whatever. Uh, and I'll go too long or whatever. Uh, and that way I'm not exhausting myself that way I'm not exhausting myself that way I'm not exhausting myself before I have to sit down and write. And before I have to sit down and write. And before I have to sit down and write. And I'm also not using up a ton of time. And I'm also not using up a ton of time. And I'm also not using up a ton of time. And if I wake up at 3:30 in the morning, if I wake up at 3:30 in the morning, if I wake up at 3:30 in the morning, it's totally fine. it's totally fine. it's totally fine. >> Yeah, I'm I have a book due in mid-March >> Yeah, I'm I have a book due in mid-March >> Yeah, I'm I have a book due in mid-March and so I'm in that phase where it's like and so I'm in that phase where it's like and so I'm in that phase where it's like everything has to be writing. Um I'll everything has to be writing. Um I'll everything has to be writing. Um I'll always write in the morning, but I am always write in the morning, but I am always write in the morning, but I am thinking about starting to do some thinking about starting to do some thinking about starting to do some workouts in the morning once I get the workouts in the morning once I get the workouts in the morning once I get the book done. We'll see how that goes. book done. We'll see how that goes. book done. We'll see how that goes. >> Can you say anything about the book or >> Can you say anything about the book or >> Can you say anything about the book or is that under wraps? I listened to a is that under wraps? I listened to a is that under wraps? I listened to a podcast um from a wise author podcast um from a wise author podcast um from a wise author the other day and he said he was working the other day and he said he was working the other day and he said he was working on a book and he didn't want to talk on a book and he didn't want to talk on a book and he didn't want to talk about it too much because the creativity about it too much because the creativity about it too much because the creativity goes somewhere. The muse goes somewhere. The muse goes somewhere. The muse >> I think it's best to lock it down. Talk >> I think it's best to lock it down. Talk >> I think it's best to lock it down. Talk about it when [laughter] it was done. about it when [laughter] it was done. about it when [laughter] it was done. Oh, did I say that? Oh, did I say that? Oh, did I say that? >> It was you. [gasps] >> It was you. [gasps] >> It was you. [gasps] >> I will say I've I've shared what I'm >> I will say I've I've shared what I'm >> I will say I've I've shared what I'm working on with a few people but not working on with a few people but not working on with a few people but not publicly. And when I'm just asked by, publicly. And when I'm just asked by, publicly. And when I'm just asked by, you know, a random person, it's like, you know, a random person, it's like, you know, a random person, it's like, "No, I don't." Cuz you you then it feels "No, I don't." Cuz you you then it feels "No, I don't." Cuz you you then it feels like you've done something and you like you've done something and you like you've done something and you haven't done it. Like, I'll talk about haven't done it. Like, I'll talk about haven't done it. Like, I'll talk about it when it's done. it when it's done. it when it's done. >> Well, I do feel like sometimes you don't >> Well, I do feel like sometimes you don't >> Well, I do feel like sometimes you don't know what the book is until the book is know what the book is until the book is know what the book is until the book is like done and you've gone through it and like done and you've gone through it and like done and you've gone through it and you go, "Here's oh, here's what this for you go, "Here's oh, here's what this for you go, "Here's oh, here's what this for me anyways, here's what this book is me anyways, here's what this book is me anyways, here's what this book is really about and here's how we need to really about and here's how we need to really about and here's how we need to get it more aligned with that." So, if I get it more aligned with that." So, if I get it more aligned with that." So, if I start talking, I mean, it's it's start talking, I mean, it's it's start talking, I mean, it's it's definitely focused on mindset in a way. definitely focused on mindset in a way. definitely focused on mindset in a way. And I did this long hike to sort of tell And I did this long hike to sort of tell And I did this long hike to sort of tell that story. So I got the narrative down that story. So I got the narrative down that story. So I got the narrative down and all those pieces, but like kind of and all those pieces, but like kind of and all those pieces, but like kind of landing the plane on the core insights landing the plane on the core insights landing the plane on the core insights of the book is still in the process. of the book is still in the process. of the book is still in the process. We're still in the air. We're still in the air. We're still in the air. >> Yeah. You're prolific on Substack. >> Yeah. You're prolific on Substack. >> Yeah. You're prolific on Substack. You've built a a tremendous community You've built a a tremendous community You've built a a tremendous community there. Like I think you have 100,000 there. Like I think you have 100,000 there. Like I think you have 100,000 people more than 100,000 people there. people more than 100,000 people there. people more than 100,000 people there. Um and you're publishing three times a Um and you're publishing three times a Um and you're publishing three times a week there. week there. week there. >> Three times a week. Monday, Wednesday, >> Three times a week. Monday, Wednesday, >> Three times a week. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. and it's an incredible resource Friday. and it's an incredible resource Friday. and it's an incredible resource for for anyone who is not familiar. Um for for anyone who is not familiar. Um for for anyone who is not familiar. Um the the the page or the account, I don't the the the page or the account, I don't the the the page or the account, I don't know what you call it on Substack, it's know what you call it on Substack, it's know what you call it on Substack, it's called 2%. Um and everything you publish called 2%. Um and everything you publish called 2%. Um and everything you publish there is just, you know, it's just there is just, you know, it's just there is just, you know, it's just valuedriven, you know, it's not it's not valuedriven, you know, it's not it's not valuedriven, you know, it's not it's not chaff at all. Like it's really well chaff at all. Like it's really well chaff at all. Like it's really well thought out. thought out. thought out. >> It's a ton of work. Uh but I love it. I >> It's a ton of work. Uh but I love it. I >> It's a ton of work. Uh but I love it. I think the reason I started it is because think the reason I started it is because think the reason I started it is because in the book world you put out a book in the book world you put out a book in the book world you put out a book people like it or they don't whatever people like it or they don't whatever people like it or they don't whatever and then 3 years later you have another and then 3 years later you have another and then 3 years later you have another book and you don't get like this real book and you don't get like this real book and you don't get like this real time time time ability to write about things that are ability to write about things that are ability to write about things that are happening in the moment or things that happening in the moment or things that happening in the moment or things that are coming into your mind or even when are coming into your mind or even when are coming into your mind or even when you're writing a book you have all these you're writing a book you have all these you're writing a book you have all these ideas that you're like oh this is ideas that you're like oh this is ideas that you're like oh this is actually really useful but for whatever actually really useful but for whatever actually really useful but for whatever reason it just doesn't work in the book reason it just doesn't work in the book reason it just doesn't work in the book so what do you what do you do with it? so what do you what do you do with it? so what do you what do you do with it? Um, so I started the Substack a few Um, so I started the Substack a few Um, so I started the Substack a few years ago right after I'd finished years ago right after I'd finished years ago right after I'd finished Scarcity Brain and um, I love it. It's Scarcity Brain and um, I love it. It's Scarcity Brain and um, I love it. It's great. It just gives me an outlet to great. It just gives me an outlet to great. It just gives me an outlet to cover things that I think are cover things that I think are cover things that I think are interesting and useful to people in the interesting and useful to people in the interesting and useful to people in the realm of fitness, mindset, general realm of fitness, mindset, general realm of fitness, mindset, general health. Um, and the community is health. Um, and the community is health. Um, and the community is awesome. That's what's really cool about awesome. That's what's really cool about awesome. That's what's really cool about it. So, we've got like a robust comment it. So, we've got like a robust comment it. So, we've got like a robust comment section. where like I know the people in section. where like I know the people in section. where like I know the people in it now. it now. it now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You're like, "Oh, that's that's so >> You're like, "Oh, that's that's so >> You're like, "Oh, that's that's so [laughter] Oh, yeah. And it's great. And [laughter] Oh, yeah. And it's great. And [laughter] Oh, yeah. And it's great. And I do put I mean I put a lot of work into I do put I mean I put a lot of work into I do put I mean I put a lot of work into it because Substack for people who it because Substack for people who it because Substack for people who aren't familiar. aren't familiar. aren't familiar. >> Um it does allow you to put a payw wall >> Um it does allow you to put a payw wall >> Um it does allow you to put a payw wall up. And so I send out every Monday. That up. And so I send out every Monday. That up. And so I send out every Monday. That one's always free. It always will be. Uh one's always free. It always will be. Uh one's always free. It always will be. Uh Wednesday and Friday, you'll eventually Wednesday and Friday, you'll eventually Wednesday and Friday, you'll eventually hit a payw wall. And so for me, the hit a payw wall. And so for me, the hit a payw wall. And so for me, the question is always, would I pay for this question is always, would I pay for this question is always, would I pay for this article? article? article? And if the answer is no, and I'm cheap, And if the answer is no, and I'm cheap, And if the answer is no, and I'm cheap, so there's a high bar, so there's a high bar, so there's a high bar, >> the answer [clears throat] is no, I got >> the answer [clears throat] is no, I got >> the answer [clears throat] is no, I got to go back to the drawing board and make to go back to the drawing board and make to go back to the drawing board and make sure that this is valuable. So yeah, I sure that this is valuable. So yeah, I sure that this is valuable. So yeah, I do I mean I'm still doing in journalist do I mean I'm still doing in journalist do I mean I'm still doing in journalist mode, reading tons of studies, talking mode, reading tons of studies, talking mode, reading tons of studies, talking to different sources across the board, to different sources across the board, to different sources across the board, but I love it. It's it's awesome. I but I love it. It's it's awesome. I but I love it. It's it's awesome. I wasn't sure if it was going to work out, wasn't sure if it was going to work out, wasn't sure if it was going to work out, but it's worked out roll. but it's worked out roll. but it's worked out roll. >> I think it's working out pretty well. >> I think it's working out pretty well. >> I think it's working out pretty well. It's good. I mean, you you've I mean, It's good. I mean, you you've I mean, It's good. I mean, you you've I mean, there can't be very many Substackers there can't be very many Substackers there can't be very many Substackers that are uh you know, are like doing that are uh you know, are like doing that are uh you know, are like doing doing better than you. I mean, you've doing better than you. I mean, you've doing better than you. I mean, you've you've really like you're hitting a home you've really like you're hitting a home you've really like you're hitting a home run over there and you're just run over there and you're just run over there and you're just delivering incredible value. delivering incredible value. delivering incredible value. >> I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad you like >> I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad you like >> I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad you like it. it. it. >> As we kind of like wrap this up, uh I >> As we kind of like wrap this up, uh I >> As we kind of like wrap this up, uh I want to make sure that people understand want to make sure that people understand want to make sure that people understand that um Walk with Weight, you also you that um Walk with Weight, you also you that um Walk with Weight, you also you have like a lot of practical advice in have like a lot of practical advice in have like a lot of practical advice in there in terms of like gear and also there in terms of like gear and also there in terms of like gear and also like training programs. like it it's like training programs. like it it's like training programs. like it it's it's part kind of manifesto but also it's part kind of manifesto but also it's part kind of manifesto but also kind of practical guide. So if people kind of practical guide. So if people kind of practical guide. So if people are curious or interested it you're are curious or interested it you're are curious or interested it you're literally giving them everything they literally giving them everything they literally giving them everything they need to understand the value proposition need to understand the value proposition need to understand the value proposition as well as like the how-to aspect of it. as well as like the how-to aspect of it. as well as like the how-to aspect of it. >> Yeah. I mean the book really did come >> Yeah. I mean the book really did come >> Yeah. I mean the book really did come out of the fact that I wrote that out of the fact that I wrote that out of the fact that I wrote that comfort uh chapter in the comfort crisis comfort uh chapter in the comfort crisis comfort uh chapter in the comfort crisis on rucking. Rucking sort of took off. I on rucking. Rucking sort of took off. I on rucking. Rucking sort of took off. I became sort of a go-to resource and I became sort of a go-to resource and I became sort of a go-to resource and I started getting all sorts of questions started getting all sorts of questions started getting all sorts of questions from people all over the world about it from people all over the world about it from people all over the world about it and I've just sort of taken the and I've just sort of taken the and I've just sort of taken the questions I get most frequently um and questions I get most frequently um and questions I get most frequently um and answered those all. What weight should I answered those all. What weight should I answered those all. What weight should I start with? What if the weight's too start with? What if the weight's too start with? What if the weight's too heavy? What sort of shoe should I mean heavy? What sort of shoe should I mean heavy? What sort of shoe should I mean just all this tactical stuff. But then just all this tactical stuff. But then just all this tactical stuff. But then to your point, I sort of open with I to your point, I sort of open with I to your point, I sort of open with I like how you use the word manifesto. I like how you use the word manifesto. I like how you use the word manifesto. I hadn't heard that one on that book and hadn't heard that one on that book and hadn't heard that one on that book and that's good. um a case for walking with that's good. um a case for walking with that's good. um a case for walking with weight and why it why it is unique to weight and why it why it is unique to weight and why it why it is unique to humans, what its benefits are and so humans, what its benefits are and so humans, what its benefits are and so yeah hopefully people find yeah hopefully people find yeah hopefully people find [clears throat] it useful. [clears throat] it useful. [clears throat] it useful. >> There are uh like I don't they're not >> There are uh like I don't they're not >> There are uh like I don't they're not races but like organized rucks now like races but like organized rucks now like races but like organized rucks now like longist you can go to these places and longist you can go to these places and longist you can go to these places and you know you know you know >> do it as a group. I I would imagine >> do it as a group. I I would imagine >> do it as a group. I I would imagine that's going to continue to grow. that's going to continue to grow. that's going to continue to grow. >> Yeah, I've never done one. Um, >> Yeah, I've never done one. Um, >> Yeah, I've never done one. Um, but I imagine they'll probably increase but I imagine they'll probably increase but I imagine they'll probably increase in popularity. I mean, for me though, in popularity. I mean, for me though, in popularity. I mean, for me though, the magic is like seeing the, you know, the magic is like seeing the, you know, the magic is like seeing the, you know, the lady in my neighborhood in the the lady in my neighborhood in the the lady in my neighborhood in the weight vest weight vest weight vest >> walking around. It's like, that's >> walking around. It's like, that's >> walking around. It's like, that's awesome. awesome. awesome. >> All right. Well, any any final uh final >> All right. Well, any any final uh final >> All right. Well, any any final uh final thoughts uh for people to take home with thoughts uh for people to take home with thoughts uh for people to take home with them uh as they as they start to think them uh as they as they start to think them uh as they as they start to think about uh incorporating this into their about uh incorporating this into their about uh incorporating this into their life? life? life? >> I do not, but I will say if you need me >> I do not, but I will say if you need me >> I do not, but I will say if you need me or have a question, I am on Substack. or have a question, I am on Substack. or have a question, I am on Substack. People can DM me. You can write People can DM me. You can write People can DM me. You can write questions in the comments and I will do questions in the comments and I will do questions in the comments and I will do my absolute best to answer them. If it's my absolute best to answer them. If it's my absolute best to answer them. If it's a rocking specific question, it's a rocking specific question, it's a rocking specific question, it's probably going to be answered in the probably going to be answered in the probably going to be answered in the book. Um, if it's a question about book. Um, if it's a question about book. Um, if it's a question about anything else, happy to happy to film anything else, happy to happy to film anything else, happy to happy to film it. it. it. >> Awesome, man. Well, uh, thank you for >> Awesome, man. Well, uh, thank you for >> Awesome, man. Well, uh, thank you for appreciate it, man. Super fun to see appreciate it, man. Super fun to see appreciate it, man. Super fun to see you. And you know, once I have a sign you. And you know, once I have a sign you. And you know, once I have a sign off from the dock, uh I'm going to root off from the dock, uh I'm going to root off from the dock, uh I'm going to root you out and uh force you to go out on you out and uh force you to go out on you out and uh force you to go out on some kind of situation with me some kind of situation with me some kind of situation with me somewhere. somewhere. somewhere. >> I like a good situation, [laughter] >> I like a good situation, [laughter] >> I like a good situation, [laughter] especially with you. That'll be good. especially with you. That'll be good. especially with you. That'll be good. Anyway, uh thanks, Michael. Appreciate Anyway, uh thanks, Michael. Appreciate Anyway, uh thanks, Michael. Appreciate it. Cheers. [music] it. Cheers. [music] it. Cheers. [music] >> Yeah. Thank you. Peace.