Feel Flat, Tired, or Disconnected? Watch This. | Esther Perel

Key Takeaway

To feel alive, ask yourself: 'When's the last time I felt truly alive?' The answer reveals your erotic energy - not sexual, but your life force. It might be singing with others, digging in earth, or laughing with friends. Modern life depletes this vitality through isolation, overthinking, and reducing uncertainty to calculations. Reclaim aliveness through presence, sensory engagement, and ritual - the antidote to deadness.

Episode Overview

Esther Perel explores the concept of 'eros' - not sexuality, but life force, creativity, and aliveness. She discusses how modern life depletes our vitality through isolation and overthinking, while connection (with people, nature, art) restores it. The conversation covers co-regulation in relationships, the necessity of human connection despite its difficulties, and practical ways to cultivate aliveness through rituals and sensory experiences.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Feel Flat, Tired, or Disconnected? Watch This. | Esther Perel from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Estair Pel, welcome back to the show. Pleasure to be here again with you. Then let me start with this question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is What is What is I'm always like, hey, what's going to be his opening question? But yes, I'm all ears. [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] Oh man, I I I don't mean to spark that kind of apprehension in my It's good. It's good. It's curiosity complete. No. No. You talk about aeros a lot. E R O S. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. What do you mean by that?

The original meaning, the mystical meaning, the historical meaning of aeros is life force, creativity, engagement, aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, imagination. It really is only very recent that the word has been kind of reduced to its sexual meaning to a set of repertoire and techniques and urges and accutramas. And um to feel erotic is to feel alive. And that sometimes happens in the midst of acute pain too. It is not just uh an exalting experience. The erotic applies to all areas. It applies to art, to work, to relationships, to nature, to daily life.

So that's the, you know, when everybody knows the difference between something that isn't dead and something that is alive. a relationship that isn't dead and a relationship that is alive, a project, a person. That distinction is very very important. Modern life I think sometimes depletes the erotic. It overthinks, it over isolates, it numbs, it tries to reduce every uncertainty into something that can be easily fixed and calculated. So that's for me the erotic. When do you feel most alive is a question that probes the erotic.

So let me ask you that question ET. When when do you feel most alive? I'm curious. curious. curious. I feel most alive when I sing and especially if I sing with others, when I laugh with others. My my experiences are often quite uh collective in nature actually. They're less solitary when we are a group of dear friends or or my family and my friends around a table super engaged in stories and conversation. I think movement movement is probably the the thing that dancing of any kind are all experiences when I feel um alive, energized, vibrant.

When you say that modern life depletes aeros, is it that many if not most of us are not having these experiences of what what I believe AL Durkheim called collective uh collective effervescence? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Not not enough. You see um I mean here we are you and I in we are talking you know we're trying to reach each other. We on the one hand can can have this conversation that if I was living far away we we would not but on the other hand we are not in the presence of each other.

[snorts] We are not able to be tactile. We're not able to see each other. We're not really having eye contact. And I do think that in real life is a major element of the erotic experience. It is sens sensory. It is sensual. it it involves the entire being, not just words, not just words basically. So that's the the first thing about modern life depletes it. I also think that the erotic exists in a space that is much more ambiguous. It's not a place of certainty. It's a place of serendipity.

It's a place of curiosity, of exploration, of discovery. And these days we tend to many of us tend to lean on the side of rules and safety and security and less on the side of openness, risk, adventure. Um you know so that too numbs the erotic. If if you if you're constantly wanting to be sure about things then you know certainty is the enemy of change. What do you think are the negative impacts on us from having our the erotic depleted in our lives? And again, the erotic in the most broad sense of that term.

Eroticism Eroticism Eroticism as in aliveness, vibrancy, vitality is an antidote to death or deadness. On the flip side of feeling alive is feeling dead, deadened, flat, muted, numb, dull. Those are the words that accompany it. Alive doesn't mean excited. It means life means feeling in touch with life with with its vibrancy with you know that's why I say it's very important to understand that you can feel very alive in the midst of grief but [snorts] you're feeling something with an with an intensity. The flip side of that is isolation disconnection disconnection disconnection numbness and deadness.

You can leave it have it inside of you and you can have it in relationships and you can have it in companies and you can have it in various places that once used to be creative hubs. So it it is actually a major source of energy you know and we all know in the body that energy precedes blood flow. If you have no energy you have nothing to start with. It's true for all kinds of other mechanics as well. So when I talk about the erotic, I talk about an energy.

It's not a a particular situation. It's it's energetic. Everyone understands when you feel alive, you sit differently. Your body has a different position. Your chest is open. Your arms are open. That is very different from this. You know, this she has her neck down in her phone. Just just to for the listeners. listeners. listeners. Yes. I'm I'm I'm leaning forward. I'm lifting my shoulders. I'm lowering my head. I'm slouching in. I may be comfortable, but I'm expecting nothing. No surprise. The erotic is a is a field of mystery and surprise, which is what makes us feel alive and makes us want to get up in the morning and see what what does today hold for me.

So on the other side when I say deadness I could say depression, melancholy, anxiety but I don't want to just use psychological terms. I want to use actually existential terms and the erotic is essential because it's an it's an antidote to deadness. It's it's where hope resides too by the way for those for whom that is a word aspiration hope longing for the people who are listening who are introverts and you know I have a lot of introverts in my life who would much rather be um wearing comfy socks and spled out on the couch than going with me to the parties I like to go to.

They may be thinking well I'm exempt from everything EA is describing. What what would you say to anybody reaching that conclusion? conclusion? conclusion? But you're not. When you listen to music alone, you can listen to music and you and it transcends it's it transports. When you are deeply immersed in a novel, it also has to do with being immersed in something and and feeling something deeply. It doesn't have to be collective. But by the way, many introverts like to be with people on occasion. They just have a lesser they need a lesser dose of it and they need to replenish by themselves.

That doesn't mean they don't like to be in the company of people, but I think you may not want to go to a club, but you may want to be very pleased to dance with three, four friends. You may want to just listen to music and and music that really kind of penetrates your core. You may want to write. You may want to do clay work. I mean, you know, the tactile is extremely important, too. So I absolutely don't think that there is a connection between introvert versus extrovert the centrality of the erotic and eroticism in our life.

Maybe to the particular expression of it. Yeah, of course. Why not? It's there's a broad range. walking in nature even if you like to do it by yourself or looking at art or all these experiences that that connect you also with the aesthetic dimension and the regeneration because it you know in nature things die and come back. I mean it's it's generative and that means it is alive. I think you may want different things that what I describe myself because I'm like you. I'm much more of an extrovert, but I live with one who is who who, you know, doesn't need nearly the same amount of uh social events as I do.

And um but he's deeply connected to to the erotic. So don't feel left out is what I'm saying to the to the introverts. You're completely completely completely connected to this dimension of life. Another area of the erotic that we haven't gotten to yet, which but and and I know from personal experience hanging out with you is a is a is important to you is food. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, everyone knows the difference between food for sustenance and food for pleasure and connection. connection. connection. It's the same idea as when I say a relationship, you know, that isn't dead, that just is surviving and a relationship that is thriving and feels alive.

It often involves pleasure as well, but it involves intensity. Food is extremely important to that. And I I've never known that people want to understand the difference between introverts and extroverts as it relates to food necessarily. Interestingly, food transcends that, right? But there is something about that nurturing, that creativity that goes into cooking. for some people it's not my thing but you know that imagination that element of surprise I put that and that together I had no idea wow you know that first spoon that you take I mean it's it's filled with all the erotic ingredients discovery surprise mystery pleasure connection it's very you know I think food is probably one I would put above many others because we all eat tell me if you think I'm hearing you correctly what I'm hearing if if I am hearing you correctly I really agree with it which is that introverts need need need connection with the world and with other people.

They just might need fewer interpersonal connections than um unreonstructed extroverts like uh Estair and Dan. and Dan. and Dan. Unreonstructed. I like it. Yes. Yes. I think that we have a tendency to think that because someone is an introvert, they do not like to be with people. I think sometimes that is the case. But the majority of the time it's a different ratio. It's a different intake level. And there's a different need to replenish and different ways to replenish. You know, there are an extrovert may often replenish by being with people and then when they're full then they go and spend some time alone.

An introvert may often you know replenish by themselves fill the tank and then when they feel recharged then they go into the world and meet with people. But to think that because one is an introvert one is solitary by definition and disconnected from others I don't think is capturing the range of what introversion includes. Same for extraversion for that matter. But you know you said something at first about the distinction between eroticism and sexuality and why I said modernity has narrow the definition of eroticism in very sexual terms.

Sexually as well people know that you can do a lot of things and feel nothing or very little. People know that in the erotic you can do very little and feel a ton ton ton because your imagination is active because your creativity is writing because your longing is singing. When I translate it like that, I have really wanted to bring back a word that describes such important parts of our lives and that we have kind of allowed to be narrowed and reduced and it's not really helping us.

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Absolutely. But you know as as you were talking I I thought there is one other dimension that I would love to add to your first question which is the spiritual dimension. Everyone knows that the most religious poems can be deeply erotic and the most erotic poems are highly spiritual. These two dimensions are very interconnected. Why? Because it has a transcendent element to it. Because it has a kind of an abandon to it. It because it allows us to be taken carried into a realm of mystery and unknown.

uh which is what spirituality is a beautiful vocabulary for that. So this time of year I've been going to places where I watch people sing sing together and it is an incredible thing because the resonance of unison of voices that come together is probably one of the first of all the most ancient or the more ancient and and um and connective technologies that we have ever developed. You do not need to know the person next to you. You do not need to speak the same language as the person next to you.

You just have to hum with them and you and you meet at a at a level of resonance that is talk about distressing. It's really really significant. Now it is true that some of the sources of our stress come from people around us and it is equally true that some of the best way we can alleviate and I prefer the word alleviate than medicicate our our stress, our tension, our despair, our anxiety, our angst comes from being with people. One person doesn't have to be people in the plural comes from our connection to other human beings.

And more importantly, it's not always a verbal connection. That's the thing I'm trying to say. And these days, since we have been texting non-stop. We have we have it's been on the one hand, people have never written as much as they do today. We've really become an epistolary c culture. On the other hand, we are only relying on words. When this happens, we we we you know, there's a whole contextual way that we communicate with each other that has to do with shared understandings and shared histories and and non-verbal cues and body language and, you know, deep context that gives meaning to communication that at this moment we are not engaged with enough.

We're primarily dealing with what is called cold information, information, information, not warm information. So I I I load the erotic into that. To me these things are very much interconnected. But you were asking me a different question and I went back to the previous one and so remind me I took off in a different direction. Whatever direction you go in I like. Um but what I was asking about is is the mechanism by which we co-regulate. We co-regulate We co-regulate We co-regulate by putting a hand on the knee, on the shoulder, on the neck, what we call the bony handles of our bodies where we ground someone.

We co-regulate by breathing together. We co-regulate by singing together. We co-regulate by through eye contact. We co-regulate by offering consolation and empathy and reassurance. It's all of those mechanisms that that regulate us. But I am not someone who's focus you know talking about the nervous system is familiar to me but it's not exactly my vocabulary. that doesn't mean it's not an essential component, but when when I talk about cogulation, I think of it um and I'm going to give you one example that I find very interesting.

So yesterday I had a couple that is going to be coming on to the podcast soon on where should we begin and at one point the the woman gets agitated and upset and he tries to reach out and as he tries to reach out she could say this is really nice to hear this is what I've been waiting to hear but what happens to her is that she says what took you so long now after all this. [gasps] So I said then he reaches out with his hand and then she gives him the hand but then she takes it back and then she gets upset that she's upset and that he's not able to make her be not upset.

And then I said here's for me one of the most powerful images of regulation and it comes from watching babies. You see a baby in the crib that is standing there and shaking it and saying, "Pick me up. Pick me up." Then you pick them up and what is the first thing that they do? They arc. They arc back. You know, they're they they have a curve in their back. They open their hand, their shoulder. And slowly you shake them gently. You rock them. Not shake them.

You rock them. And slowly slowly slowly do they move their body forward and they let it drop onto your chest. chest. chest. We see it in kids and we understand it very very well. When you are disregulated you arc and it takes a while till you are able to fold yourself and trust and connect to the source of comfort that is right next to you. That's what you're referring to the return to people. But for an adult it's the same thing. It's just that we don't visualize the arcing of the adult.

All we see is the adult who instead of saying thank you says you. But and yet it's like the the most important part about regulation is pacing. pacing. pacing. If I need you to calm down quick because I actually can't tolerate you're being agitated because it agitates me then we are actually not co-regulating. We are co-stressing. One of my perhaps glib little expressions is um that I think about the human curse as we need other people in order to flourish and other people are a gigantic pain in the ass.

It's not the same people. That's the good thing. good thing. good thing. It's not that's the good thing. It's not the same people. We absolutely need in your marital life. It sometimes is. Yes. in your marital life. That is one of the beautiful paradoxes of a long-term relationship. long-term relationship. long-term relationship. And it is true also between parents and children. children. children. Yes, Yes, Yes, I love you. I hate you. I need you. I don't want to need you. Uh we are constantly straddling. You know, I want to please you, but I also want to stay true to myself.

I want to stay true to myself, but I don't want to lose you in the process. I want to make my own decisions, but I also am caring about what they what effects they have on you. That whole dance there is it's a it's it's the core dynamic of relationships period. period. period. All of them by the way, but especially between children and parents and especially in in in in even in friendships in in relationships that involve love in the broad sense of the word. the word.

the word. But you can have many many friends and of course you can have more than one partner but the majority of us at this point don't. So we are, you know, in a cycle uh what I call often hostile dependency, right? I need you for things to be better. I need you to change, but you're not doing it. So I get angry at you. And the more I get angry at you and the more I need you to be the one to change. And the less you change and the more angry I become and the more dependent I am on you to actually do the changing.

So we are in this hostile dependence. The more you do this, the more I feel that. And the more I do that, the more you feel this. So, it's a fantastic dance that partners do. do. do. That is such an incredible term. And I a hostile dependency. hostile dependency. hostile dependency. Yes. Yes. Yes. It it can be true in romantic relationships, relationships, relationships, parent, parent, parent, work relationships too. Yes. Business colleagues, Business colleagues, Business colleagues, all of them. All of them. Because our tendency is to think that the change has to come often from the other side and that the cause of the misery is created by the other side.

So I need you to do something different and change. And that needing you means I depend on you but you're not necessarily you're not but you're not necessarily responding to my request. So I get pissed and the more I get pissed the more I need you. It's it's an incred once you know the term you're going to watch it and see it in many places then. So so my my point in bringing in and steering us into talking about some of the many difficulties of interpersonal relationships was not to discourage people but I think people often do get discouraged by the fact that interpersonal work is hard and we're now raising a generation of people who are you know you know and I don't blame the young people for this.

I blame uh myself and my generation for this for raising these kids without a lot of interpersonal skills. The then they then they go to a party, they feel anxious and they decide, well, I'm never going to go to a party again. Um and you know, I think this is true for young people and and and plenty of people who are not young. Uh and and it's just trying I'm trying to get us back to this this fundamental truth that even though it is difficult often to deal with other people, we do need other people whether we're an introvert or an extrovert in order to do this life successfully.

It's become invogue to say that it's difficult to be with people. But if we switched it around on a cultural basis, and we said it's actually really difficult to be so alone, to have no best friends, to not have dates, to be single for life, to um to to talk to a butt uh in order to to to make us feel better. And if we switch the dominant narrative and we actually said it's being alone that is really challenging challenging challenging being with people you know it's not simple but it's not that it's that constantly difficult I think we would create a different reality you know language shapes the experience at this moment we partly because of the isolation that we have experienced through the the pandemic partly because we are you know talking in our phones the whole day there's a ton of reasons why we are out of practice and why we are socially atrophied and we are being diskilled in our human interactions.

But I think that us we should not start from the premise that being with people or relationships are relationships are relationships are painful, depleting uh you know sucking you dry. I think we have to start from the other side otherwise we collude with something. You know, societies have had relationships forever. Yes, they're messy. They're messy. That is true. They're not perfect. They don't have they they involve a ton of friction. Friction is a word that I like a lot especially if I talk about eroticism. But there but they are as important as food.

And nobody's you know people have the ability of say there is nutritious food, delicious food, fast food, healthy food. You know we we make distinctions when we say relationships are difficult. Some relationships are really depleting. Some relationships are the meaning some some and some relationships are the complete opposite. And I think we have to not use the word relationships. We have to be more discerning the same way that we would do with food and other things. It'll help us on a societal level. level. level. I agree with you completely.

Uh there was a a guest on this show, Ingred Clayton, recently who said, "Wounding happens in relationship, but healing happens in relationship." That's correct. That's correct. If we're looking to get more eroticism in our lives, I think it might be worth talking about how exactly to do that. One of the things that you recommend is a kind of gent gentle self audit to get a sense of [clears throat] like what lights you up because you know we have relationships with others but we also have relationships with different parts of ourselves.

ourselves. ourselves. So we we live in relationships. People think that because you don't see other people you don't have relationships. Oh yes you do. You have plenty of relationships with the parts of you that live inside of you with the various things that you have internalized over your life. So you are continuously in a relational system that I think needs to be really established. Now I ask people when's the last time you felt alive and it's really a very broad swat of experiences that people talk about.

I was at sea and I suddenly kind of was swimming and I I I wasn't thinking anymore. I was just in this vast openness. I openness. I openness. I climbed a mountain. I I I crafted my first pottery. I mean, it's it's it it covers the range. I I was at a at a at a soccer game soccer game soccer game and we just cheered the thing and I felt completely identified with my team, etc. It's really beautiful as a question actually. When's the last time you felt alive, you know, sometimes it's when I was holding my baby in my hands.

I mean, it's it's it's very broad. And so, what lights you up is that question. It doesn't mean what excites you. It doesn't mean what gives you butterflies in your stomach. It It's actually often very subtle. It's very It's not big things. it and uh and I like it because it challenges us from this kind of you know big bang. I have a very close friend, a fellow Belgian um like you. Her name is Dalia and we were out to dinner. Dalia's family and my family are very close.

Uh, and we were out to dinner recently and Dalia snapped a picture of me talking to her husband who's one of my best friends and and their son and I just had this I was in the midst of this huge laugh and she sent me the picture and I was like, "Oh yeah, this is what happens. Th this is me feeling alive. This is what happens when you're with people you love." love." love." I mean, and laughter laughter is such a state of abandon. You know, you you you when you're in the middle of a laughter, unless you're being jolted out of it by something massively, you know, surprising or scaring or disruptive, you are lost for a minute.

You're you're in it. I love to go to to see plays and and and live life shows where people laugh. It's uh it's probably one of the most difficult things, right, to make people laugh. I've had number of conversations with Trevor Noah about that. You know what is it? What is the role of humor? I think we humor is another dimension of aliveness because humor gives you perspective, right? Humor gives you control over a situation and allows you to change its meaning and its impact. That too is Burger's theory on on laughter is is also very important.

So there's a lot of things that make us feel alive. That's the that's what I often am trying to to engage with. people putting their hands in the earth uh digging children dig you know they they they dig holes wherever they can that that is also alive uh you you encounter other creatures by the way I think the relationship it's very important to add is really not just with the people it's beyond the human we call it beyond human it is and it involves primarily nature but and other and art and and technology even too but It is really beyond human.

It I think the most important piece is to say that healing or connection is relational and that it's the relational dimension of our lives that is essential. Then we can look at what is it that you are relating to. Where do your relationships flourish and exist? People is a central pole and it's it's extremely important but it is not the only one. people lying in nature, it can have an effect on them that is calming, soothing, healing more than people. So I I I think what's beautiful about your question is that it's it's broad actually and that joins your introverts too.

If it's not people for you, what is it? What is the place that you experience connection? What is the place that uh opens possibilities or helps you close those that need closure? It goes in both directions. It's life and death. And by the way, there's another word we haven't used that is essential to this conversation. It's rituals. rituals. rituals. Rituals is what every civilization has created in order to help us with the beginnings, the endings, and the transitions. transitions. transitions. Transitions from morning to night. transitions from holy to secular transitions, you know, from healthy to not well.

And rituals are these symbolic, you know, situations. They are habits that are invested with creativity and intention. And so they are highly staged. They are repetitious. They find their power and their meaning by the sheer repetition over centuries by people who have no idea how this came into being. And then they morph. They transform. They take on new pieces. Who knows where it what it once looked like. And sometimes it's called an ancient ritual because it actually didn't really change much. But rituals is essential in the relationship to the erotic.

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I I think I'd probably put myself in that category. Like how do we even begin to think about creating and then keeping up rituals? I would start with morning and evening. What's something that you would do at night that acknowledges your day? that acknowledges the fact that you're going to sleep in your own bed, that you have a bed, that it's warm, especially now we are in a New York winter, that maybe there's someone lying next to you in bed, maybe there's people lying in another room in your house, you know?

Um, is it about turning off the lights? Is it about going and visiting all the people that are sleeping there? Is it about calling someone? I have a friend who basically I said what is a major person in tech in tech and I says what do you do? He says every day I call one person person person before the day is over just to check in on them and that's a beautiful ritual. Morning is the same when you wake up instead of just grabbing your phone and you know your desk is right as you come out of bed.

You know what's a ritual that basically slows you down, grounds you in the moment, lets you remember this is a day, this is a day where you that doesn't start by going to the doctor. This is a day where you are warm. This is a day where you're going to drink your tea, coffee, whatever you like in the morning. And you take a moment to acknowledge that. You can acknowledge it. You know, some people pray. I mean that's part of what religion has left given us is this ability to do the prayers that of the morning and the prayers of the night.

For some people it's prayers they create themselves. For some people and I'm not talking about the way you take your coffee because that's a habit. You know the a ritual is a habit that is imbued with creativity and intention. So the intention is what gives it a symbolic meaning that is bigger than just the gesture. You know, if every day the same cup of coffee that you make, you take one with you and you go to give it to a homeless person. It's not the fact that you give it to the homeless person.

Is that when you give it to the homeless person, you are also thinking and I am not that person. I'm not on the street. I'm not destitute. I have more and therefore I share. That's what makes it the ritual, not the giving of the coffee. It is the interpretation of it. Candles have been a majorly important element of rituals. Candles create you know have to do with memory and memorization. Candles have to do with celebration. Candles have to do with mourning and grief. I mean what you will notice is that often in the ritual the same rituals can be used on the on and on the off on the beginnings and on the endings.

You know many people bless they bless their their the person next to them often it's children can be a blessing that you receive from your religion can be your own blessing it it it because when you bless you really are saying this is not for granted this is not a given that this is going to be here always any time so I acknowledge its fragility I acknowledge that there is no love without the fear of loss that's what the ritual says so you can do rituals alone You can do them in on fami together.

Um that's why when people sit they often first bless the food. I mean it's endless. It's endless. You know the importance of ritual and the fact that we have lost a lot of them. We are lacking rituals at this moment. Um transitional rituals, developmental rituals, we're really lacking. Bruce Filer has just written another another book and his subject is uh is rituals. And I think I think it's an super important dimension of life at the end of the week is a ritual. Sunday morning is ritual whichever way but you know somebody understood that after days of work there needs to be a day of rest and uh and it's been adopted by all the monotheistic religions whichever version you do stop stop one day or one moment in your week from doing to being from producing to reaping and to reflecting.

reflecting. reflecting. That is an super important moment because we have had rituals to regulate time and space. Right now given that we are 24/7 attached to our devices, there is no separation of time. And if we work at home and all our roles are actually executed in one chair and it's the same one all the time, we no longer have demarcation and delineation. So we are getting extremely confused and rituals help us with these demarcations. demarcations. demarcations. [snorts] Is that enough examples or you want more?

want more? want more? No, it's great just to say about Bruce Filer who who's been on this show many times. I actually just got an email from him yesterday about his new book on rituals. So I suspect you'll he'll be back on this show soon. But Estair before we lose you, there's a big thing I want to talk to you about which is um at times in this in this conversation you and I have talked about the importance of you know having contact with other people as you know part of a of what we understand to be eroticism.

And a lot of people when I go out and talk about the importance of community will say well how do you do it? you know h how do you I don't know that many people or I just moved to a new place. You actually have a lot of thoughts about how we can create uh community. Um if if if they're escaping you, I'll I'll tee you up with your own ideas. But let me shut up and see what comes to your mind immediately. mind immediately. mind immediately.

It'd be interesting to see if I respond I I often don't respond twice the same way. Um but you know you arrive to a new place place place um if you are by yourself I think the coffee shop but the coffee shop has now become another place where people sit with their laptop so they don't look up anymore so then you have to catch them when they're in line because there they often are waiting to be served so their eyes are up and so they can actually see you and then it starts with small talk which I think is extremely important you know what do you order here every day.

Do you have the same order every morning? And then you know people or this looks really delicious or I really like what you wear or uh something that makes a person smile you know and that in itself makes us feel a lot better from that moment there is the you know will I see you here tomorrow are you here every day it's it's small these small micro moments that are beyond important everybody knows that pets and uh Children, small children in particular are amazing ambassadors for connection.

You know, people walk their dogs, they talk to each other, they want to know about the dogs, they want to know about relation, etc. People have young children, it instantly puts a a a readymade community in front of you. You have interests at this moment. You see there's a proliferation of small social communities from maang to uh any other game people to to to paddle to pickle to people are coming together to play you don't have to go to talk necessarily you you know go to central park here in New York you don't know anybody bring your little paddle and start playing with people you will then come back and you will see some people again and there is such a welcoming attitude If it's rock climbing, it's another thing.

If it's biking, it's another I mean, honestly, I think meeting people through something that you like to do that is important, whether it's writing, drawing, book clubs. I mean, we are at this moment really fully invested in creating small group experiences. It you see it everywhere. So, that's one. Now, you know, in New York, where I live, often, I ask people, "When's the last time you had someone in your house or in your home?" Because I want to know, is it a house or a home?

Is it a place where you put your your stuff or is it actually a home? And then I say, "Look, just invite someone. I want you within the next week to invite somebody to come to your home. Someone you you've wanted to get to know more. Doesn't have to be someone you already know. someone you're just curious about that you think you you could have a nice chat with or that you want to share whatever your music whatever you want to do. Then you say to that person, how about you bring someone and I bring someone or you bring two and I bring two and we just do breakfast together and we cook it together.

It does these things do not have to cost much. You know, we each bring a small something. Each person bringing someone new is the way that you really build the village. I think it's it's one of the most fruitful and easy ways to do. But you have to be able to a say I want to invite you. B potentially be told I'm not that interested. It's okay. It's not a massive rejection. It's just somebody who may not be interested or for a host of reasons we won't get into.

And three, go back to the next person. work used to be an amazing place for that. I really think that for many people the the working from home is u is really delterious in terms of the the cultivation of social circles um rituals of afterwork drinks together and all of that stuff that uh um you have to go seek it now. It's not structural in your in your everyday life and that demands initiative and confidence and less anxiety and all these things that we are overly focused on that we think prevent us from creating community.

I think go religious communities are essential. It's the holiday. There plenty of houses of worship of every kind under the sun where you come together with other people and you reflect on life and it's warm and all of that. It it you don't necessarily have to interact always with the people. You can be sharing an event with the people. [snorts] Life concerts is another major one. I mean it it if I make a list there are lots of things. There's actually a long list. And here is what people tell me is that it's not that people don't know what to do.

It's that they're losing the energy, the erotic energy really, the life force to actually reach out and do this. You know, they have to be really desparing. And none of these things you can optimize. None of these things can be put into numbers. They give you meaning. They give you a sense that if you wake up, it matters to somebody else. which is essential to us. We are creatures of meaning. If I get up and it doesn't make a dent if I'm around or not and nobody cares, I'm going to really lose my taste for living.

Was I consistent or did I very consistent and you added things that were not on my list? Um I would add one thing which is volunteering. Yes, please. Absolutely. Thank you. I feel like a a common denominator among, you know, courarssing underneath all many of your suggestions here is a a kind of courage uh that can be hard to muster, especially if you've been sapped of your vitality by modern life. Yes, I think that that's the atrophy that I'm talking about. You know, it if I'm going to talk 20 times a day to a bot or to charge EP and ask questions and ask advice, etc., That's 20 times a day.

I'm not reaching out to people. If I have a predictive technology in my hand that tells me where to go, what to eat, what to listen to, what to watch, etc., I am not going to discover much on my own, and I'm going to lose the muscle for experimentation and discovery and and serendipity and the unknown, and I'm going to become more and more anxious about anything that breeds uncertainty. Even though uncertainty is kind of the synonym of living, you are right. the the it it is a strange thing to hear someone say today reaching out to people is become an act of courage.

That is a sad statement about us. And the rest of the world doesn't live like that. By the way, we need to remember that this is not universal. universal. universal. But to think that reaching out, you know, connecting with people is courage is uh is very reflective of what what has happened to us. And you're not the only one who says it like that. You launched a Substack recently called Entreneur. Um, and you and I were doing a Substack live. Um, and you made a point that I feel like coming back to and it it's related to how we are with other people that and I don't know if I'm going to be able to recapitulate this accurately, but it's something about the the value of we we think in our culture about what we deserve and what we [snorts] and you know you know self-affirmation and standing up for ourselves, but there's a certain amount of responsibility of responsibility of responsibility that we have to other people that that we sometimes forget about.

Am I do do you am I making sense here? Which in English is between us is by definition relational. It's between us. I'm going to whisper something. It's between us. You know, we keep it. We trust each other. It's between us. Meaning it it relates to each of us. It's a it's very much a relational term. I have created because I am concerned about this, you know. the challenge of dealing with the messiness and the friction of uh of relationships. I I created the card game, where should we begin?

I created the podcast. I created the substack. I am constantly thinking how do I bring people to stay connected to other people without thinking that it's an act of courage actually. But we are in a society particularly here uh that is highly individualistic highly individualistic highly individualistic that really created this notion that autonomy, autonomy, autonomy, self-reliance, self-reliance, self-reliance, independence, independence, independence, separateness separateness separateness is really the norm. It's it's the sign of strength and resilience and all of that. And I want to say that in fact relying on others, asking for help, offering help to others, asking other what what you know what do I need to do?

What am I responsible for? Translating the term belonging not just from the point of view of I'm accepted, I am seen. I am welcomed. No, no. Belonging in every group has always meant and I follow those rules and these are my assignments and this is my responsibility and in order to belong to a group you it's a it's a diadic relationship. The fact that we have taken the word belonging and turned it into you know appeasement to the self is another one of these crazy transformations in the relational field like the courage one.

It's no belonging has always been a combination of acceptance and duty, obligation, responsibility. obligation, responsibility. obligation, responsibility. Many groups still do it, but when you talk about the, you know, I want to feel a sense of belonging, it's a one-way street at this moment. So, I think that there is been such an emphasis on the self that it disregards the relational dimension of what we owe others. It emphasizes what happened to us. It puts a high focus on our own traumas and it often leaves us able to pass next to others that have deep needs from us that we don't think we are responsible to address.

So that's where your volunteerism comes in because giving is receiving. receiving. receiving. When you give to others it it you receive something back not from them from the act itself. I've been involved with organ donation in the last few years and it's really been interesting to watch that that what does it mean to give a part of oneself to someone and uh and and and how do people experience this gift as something that gives them a whole new meaning and give the gift of life often right so um it's interesting this notion of um how do we maintain accountability accountability accountability responsibility, a sense that I have something to offer to the collective and not just what is the collective doing for me.

And I think that part of what this individualism that has been so glorified has also led to the fact that one in three or one in four Americans are current is currently cut off from their family members, a family member, which is a staggering number. staggering because if it doesn't suit me, if it's hurtful to me, if it's distressing, if it's uncomfortable, if it's all these things, I don't have to. And that is another major development, the unraveling of certain relational ties ties ties because of how they affect me rather than you live with them in life.

In collective societies, people it's not like their relationships are necessarily better, but they there's this whole management system in place for dealing with the people you have to see that you don't want to see. Of course, if somebody without idealizing, there's no ideal place on the planet, but there are different responses to the stresses. Just to be clear, if somebody's a bully or has harmed you in some significant way, I think we can all agree a boundary can be drawn. But I think what you're arguing is that we're too easily cutting people off because they make us uncomfortable.

uncomfortable. uncomfortable. Yes. But I also would like to redefine the word boundary. Boundary is a is is is a dimension of any relational system. Every system, every relationship has boundaries. Porest boundaries, normal boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, impermeable boundaries, thick ones that you can't get in and out of. You know it it is a it's it's the same as every system, every relationship has hierarchy and a power dynamic. It it's to say every relationship has boundaries. Boundaries is not just an act of self-p protection. Boundaries is a clarification of roles.

You know, if we are to be together at this at this holiday coming up, we don't talk about my being gay. We don't talk about my not having kids. We don't talk about the fact that I'm not married. We don't talk about your divorce or my divorce. We don't talk about the fact that you made money and I have none. We we just that's a boundary and it's not just self-protective. It it regulates the relationship. He says we exist within this framework. Within this framework we have a ton of different things we can interact upon.

So I think it's important to to understand that boundary is actually a way to stay in relationship not a way to cut off a relationship. relationship. relationship. Ned Rataw talks about that a lot as well. I I agree very much with that view. Um that doesn't mean you stay in in violent situations. But when if it's one in three, it is more than just the the dire the dire conditions. I feel very responsible to keep an eye on the on my on the clock here because we are out of time and I want I want to be respectful of your time.

Let me just say in closing two things. First, everybody listening should check out um Aair's new Substack called Entreneur. also her podcast, Where Should We Begin, which is also a board game, which you should check out, and her books, um, uh, State of Affairs and, uh, Mating in Captivity, both excellent. And then the second thing I want to say is thank you, uh, really appreciate your time. Thank you. you. you. I always enjoy our conversations. Thank you so much.