Ex-New York Times Journalist Explains the Psychology of Billionaire AI CEOs

I'm not worried about AI destroying I'm not worried about AI destroying humanity. I'm worried about Sam Alman humanity. I'm worried about Sam Alman humanity. I'm worried about Sam Alman running an AI company that he will lead running an AI company that he will lead running an AI company that he will lead to destroy humanity. to destroy humanity. to destroy humanity. >> If this technology goes wrong, it can go >> If this technology goes wrong, it can go >> If this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong. quite wrong. quite wrong. >> Today, we're speaking with Nick Builton, >> Today, we're speaking with Nick Builton, >> Today, we're speaking with Nick Builton, former New York Times columnist and former New York Times columnist and former New York Times columnist and Vanity Fair special correspondent. I was Vanity Fair special correspondent. I was Vanity Fair special correspondent. I was a reporter in Silicon Valley covering a reporter in Silicon Valley covering a reporter in Silicon Valley covering tech. And I do believe that the tech tech. And I do believe that the tech tech. And I do believe that the tech elite are evil. The fear that we're all elite are evil. The fear that we're all elite are evil. The fear that we're all going to be killed by AI is actually going to be killed by AI is actually going to be killed by AI is actually part of their fundraising. You've got part of their fundraising. You've got part of their fundraising. You've got Sam and Elon and all these people out Sam and Elon and all these people out Sam and Elon and all these people out there being like, "We're going to die. there being like, "We're going to die. there being like, "We're going to die. We need more money." And the bucketloads We need more money." And the bucketloads We need more money." And the bucketloads of cash come in and it's all nonsense. of cash come in and it's all nonsense. of cash come in and it's all nonsense. They've crafted a certain public image They've crafted a certain public image They've crafted a certain public image tailored to what people seem to like. I tailored to what people seem to like. I tailored to what people seem to like. I also think that there's another thing, also think that there's another thing, also think that there's another thing, the biggest lesson I've learned in my the biggest lesson I've learned in my the biggest lesson I've learned in my life is that life is that life is that Nick, it's so great to meet you. Thank Nick, it's so great to meet you. Thank Nick, it's so great to meet you. Thank you for doing this. I'm so excited to you for doing this. I'm so excited to you for doing this. I'm so excited to talk to you. talk to you. talk to you. >> Thank you for having me. This is uh very >> Thank you for having me. This is uh very >> Thank you for having me. This is uh very very exciting. You're somebody who I've very exciting. You're somebody who I've very exciting. You're somebody who I've been reading for so many years uh you been reading for so many years uh you been reading for so many years uh you know at least going back 10 or 11 years know at least going back 10 or 11 years know at least going back 10 or 11 years uh with your reporting in the New York uh with your reporting in the New York uh with your reporting in the New York Times and you've covered Silicon Valley Times and you've covered Silicon Valley Times and you've covered Silicon Valley and the tech titans and there is uh an and the tech titans and there is uh an and the tech titans and there is uh an obsession that we have with these obsession that we have with these obsession that we have with these billionaires the the the technocratic billionaires the the the technocratic billionaires the the the technocratic class these people who are you know class these people who are you know class these people who are you know lording over the devices and the apps lording over the devices and the apps lording over the devices and the apps that we're all using every single day that we're all using every single day that we're all using every single day and these are people that you have spent and these are people that you have spent and these are people that you have spent time with who are also for the most part time with who are also for the most part time with who are also for the most part masterful storytellers and myth makers. masterful storytellers and myth makers. masterful storytellers and myth makers. What can you share about what you know What can you share about what you know What can you share about what you know about like people like Steve Jobs or about like people like Steve Jobs or about like people like Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos or Zuck or these people that Jeff Bezos or Zuck or these people that Jeff Bezos or Zuck or these people that is a common thread with respect to their is a common thread with respect to their is a common thread with respect to their mythmaking superpowers that uh you know mythmaking superpowers that uh you know mythmaking superpowers that uh you know we'd we'd all be kind of better off for we'd we'd all be kind of better off for we'd we'd all be kind of better off for understanding. Well, I do think that um understanding. Well, I do think that um understanding. Well, I do think that um there is a through line. They're all um there is a through line. They're all um there is a through line. They're all um obsessed with their own self-image, obsessed with their own self-image, obsessed with their own self-image, uh their legacy, and they are all uh their legacy, and they are all uh their legacy, and they are all obsessed with telling a story. And you obsessed with telling a story. And you obsessed with telling a story. And you can see that through one very simple can see that through one very simple can see that through one very simple metric, and that is um how many people metric, and that is um how many people metric, and that is um how many people are on the comm communications teams of are on the comm communications teams of are on the comm communications teams of these companies. And hundreds and these companies. And hundreds and these companies. And hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Ironically, Elon hundreds and hundreds. Ironically, Elon hundreds and hundreds. Ironically, Elon fired all of his communication folks fired all of his communication folks fired all of his communication folks because he could do it better. But uh in because he could do it better. But uh in because he could do it better. But uh in his mind, but um but they are always his mind, but um but they are always his mind, but um but they are always telling a story. And look, I mean like telling a story. And look, I mean like telling a story. And look, I mean like Elon's a perfect example. Let's take the Elon's a perfect example. Let's take the Elon's a perfect example. Let's take the Boring Company for for a little little Boring Company for for a little little Boring Company for for a little little storytelling lesson here, right? So, storytelling lesson here, right? So, storytelling lesson here, right? So, uh he was driving to work one day. Um it uh he was driving to work one day. Um it uh he was driving to work one day. Um it was a bunch of traffic. He tweets this was a bunch of traffic. He tweets this was a bunch of traffic. He tweets this years ago. He tweets, "There should be years ago. He tweets, "There should be years ago. He tweets, "There should be tunnels under the ground where you can, tunnels under the ground where you can, tunnels under the ground where you can, you know, uh, you can drive so that you know, uh, you can drive so that you know, uh, you can drive so that there's no traffic in LA." Uh, next there's no traffic in LA." Uh, next there's no traffic in LA." Uh, next thing you know, he gets to the office at thing you know, he gets to the office at thing you know, he gets to the office at SpaceX and he's like, it's the tweets SpaceX and he's like, it's the tweets SpaceX and he's like, it's the tweets getting a million responses and he's getting a million responses and he's getting a million responses and he's like, "Let's start the Boring Company like, "Let's start the Boring Company like, "Let's start the Boring Company and and we're going to build these and and we're going to build these and and we're going to build these tunnels." I went to SpaceX for a meeting tunnels." I went to SpaceX for a meeting tunnels." I went to SpaceX for a meeting a a few months later and um there was a a a few months later and um there was a a a few months later and um there was a a dirt patch across the street with one a dirt patch across the street with one a dirt patch across the street with one of these big tunnel boring machines and of these big tunnel boring machines and of these big tunnel boring machines and I said to someone I was meeting with, I I said to someone I was meeting with, I I said to someone I was meeting with, I was like, "What is that?" And he's like, was like, "What is that?" And he's like, was like, "What is that?" And he's like, "Oh, it's just it's like a little show "Oh, it's just it's like a little show "Oh, it's just it's like a little show Elon does to show that he's going to Elon does to show that he's going to Elon does to show that he's going to build these tunnels underground. It's build these tunnels underground. It's build these tunnels underground. It's never really going to happen, you know." never really going to happen, you know." never really going to happen, you know." And yeah, they've done some, but And yeah, they've done some, but And yeah, they've done some, but >> this was years ago, right? They never >> this was years ago, right? They never >> this was years ago, right? They never they never built there are no tunnels they never built there are no tunnels they never built there are no tunnels under LA. I drove on the freeway to get under LA. I drove on the freeway to get under LA. I drove on the freeway to get here. There's there is that sort of here. There's there is that sort of here. There's there is that sort of small network of tunnels under Vegas, small network of tunnels under Vegas, small network of tunnels under Vegas, right? Did he do Yeah, but it's like it right? Did he do Yeah, but it's like it right? Did he do Yeah, but it's like it doesn't really seem to alleviate the doesn't really seem to alleviate the doesn't really seem to alleviate the traffic problem. It's sort of a novelty. traffic problem. It's sort of a novelty. traffic problem. It's sort of a novelty. >> Yeah. It's also incredibly >> Yeah. It's also incredibly >> Yeah. It's also incredibly claustrophobic. Uh uh and people have claustrophobic. Uh uh and people have claustrophobic. Uh uh and people have panic attacks with them all the time. panic attacks with them all the time. panic attacks with them all the time. But but the the point is that's a great But but the the point is that's a great But but the the point is that's a great story, you know, and um and when you story, you know, and um and when you story, you know, and um and when you look at these guys, they do this over look at these guys, they do this over look at these guys, they do this over and over and over again. And I think and over and over again. And I think and over and over again. And I think that they and then they start to believe that they and then they start to believe that they and then they start to believe their own story. you know, I always I their own story. you know, I always I their own story. you know, I always I got to spend as a reporter covering got to spend as a reporter covering got to spend as a reporter covering tech, I spent time with all of them uh tech, I spent time with all of them uh tech, I spent time with all of them uh for very long periods of time. And there for very long periods of time. And there for very long periods of time. And there was always this, was always this, was always this, you know, you could see this thing you know, you could see this thing you know, you could see this thing happened like I I knew Zuck and Jack happened like I I knew Zuck and Jack happened like I I knew Zuck and Jack Dorsey and all those guys and and um Dorsey and all those guys and and um Dorsey and all those guys and and um Kevin Sister and all of them when they Kevin Sister and all of them when they Kevin Sister and all of them when they were just starting out and then and and were just starting out and then and and were just starting out and then and and then there's this kind of shock of like, then there's this kind of shock of like, then there's this kind of shock of like, whoa, how'd that happen? I'm a whoa, how'd that happen? I'm a whoa, how'd that happen? I'm a billionaire and and then there's this billionaire and and then there's this billionaire and and then there's this like I'm a billionaire and I'm the one like I'm a billionaire and I'm the one like I'm a billionaire and I'm the one that makes the decisions and and screw that makes the decisions and and screw that makes the decisions and and screw you and and it's and they just believe you and and it's and they just believe you and and it's and they just believe the they believe the story that gets the they believe the story that gets the they believe the story that gets told about them or the story they tell told about them or the story they tell told about them or the story they tell them about themselves. I mean I wrote them about themselves. I mean I wrote them about themselves. I mean I wrote the book on Twitter and one of the the book on Twitter and one of the the book on Twitter and one of the greatest quotes someone gave me was um greatest quotes someone gave me was um greatest quotes someone gave me was um the greatest brand sorry the greatest the greatest brand sorry the greatest the greatest brand sorry the greatest product that Jack Dorsey ever made was product that Jack Dorsey ever made was product that Jack Dorsey ever made was Jack Dorsey and I think that sums up a Jack Dorsey and I think that sums up a Jack Dorsey and I think that sums up a lot of these people in Silicon Valley. lot of these people in Silicon Valley. lot of these people in Silicon Valley. They they create this product that is They they create this product that is They they create this product that is themselves often taken from Steve Jobs themselves often taken from Steve Jobs themselves often taken from Steve Jobs uh uh uh >> in his reality distortion field. >> in his reality distortion field. >> in his reality distortion field. >> His reality distortion field and um I >> His reality distortion field and um I >> His reality distortion field and um I have a funny story about that and he um have a funny story about that and he um have a funny story about that and he um and then and then they believe the story and then and then they believe the story and then and then they believe the story and then sometimes the story breaks them and then sometimes the story breaks them and then sometimes the story breaks them which is what happened to Bezos. which is what happened to Bezos. which is what happened to Bezos. >> So tell that job story because then I >> So tell that job story because then I >> So tell that job story because then I have a followup related to Jack and have a followup related to Jack and have a followup related to Jack and these other guys. So, um when I was when these other guys. So, um when I was when these other guys. So, um when I was when I was a first thing out starting out as I was a first thing out starting out as I was a first thing out starting out as a reporter at the times, um I um I get a a reporter at the times, um I um I get a a reporter at the times, um I um I get a um I was writing a story. It was about um I was writing a story. It was about um I was writing a story. It was about the iPhone and something related to it. the iPhone and something related to it. the iPhone and something related to it. Uh that's not important. And I was Uh that's not important. And I was Uh that's not important. And I was writing a story about it and and I writing a story about it and and I writing a story about it and and I called Apple PR and I said, "Um uh hey, called Apple PR and I said, "Um uh hey, called Apple PR and I said, "Um uh hey, I'm writing the story." and you know and I'm writing the story." and you know and I'm writing the story." and you know and the PR woman says um uh give me a second the PR woman says um uh give me a second the PR woman says um uh give me a second and then puts me on hold and says and then puts me on hold and says and then puts me on hold and says Steve's going to call you in a little Steve's going to call you in a little Steve's going to call you in a little bit. So the guy who ran bit. So the guy who ran bit. So the guy who ran um the uh the PR department was this guy um the uh the PR department was this guy um the uh the PR department was this guy named Steve Dowling. So I thought it was named Steve Dowling. So I thought it was named Steve Dowling. So I thought it was Steve Dowling who's going to call me Steve Dowling who's going to call me Steve Dowling who's going to call me >> and um uh and instead she was like, "No, >> and um uh and instead she was like, "No, >> and um uh and instead she was like, "No, it's Steve Jobs." And I was like, "Steve it's Steve Jobs." And I was like, "Steve it's Steve Jobs." And I was like, "Steve Jobs is going to call me?" And you know, Jobs is going to call me?" And you know, Jobs is going to call me?" And you know, I'm like a young reporter at the times. I'm like a young reporter at the times. I'm like a young reporter at the times. I'm like, "Is this how it works?" So, I I'm like, "Is this how it works?" So, I I'm like, "Is this how it works?" So, I hung up the phone and he he didn't call hung up the phone and he he didn't call hung up the phone and he he didn't call and I went out I went out for dinner and I went out I went out for dinner and I went out I went out for dinner that night. Um uh and I get this weird that night. Um uh and I get this weird that night. Um uh and I get this weird 415 whatever it was phone call and um I 415 whatever it was phone call and um I 415 whatever it was phone call and um I answered had a couple of drinks and it answered had a couple of drinks and it answered had a couple of drinks and it was like, "Hey, it's Steve Jobs." And I was like, "Hey, it's Steve Jobs." And I was like, "Hey, it's Steve Jobs." And I was like, "Oh shit." And so I like go was like, "Oh shit." And so I like go was like, "Oh shit." And so I like go outside. I'm trying to take notes on my outside. I'm trying to take notes on my outside. I'm trying to take notes on my phone. He was on the phone with me for phone. He was on the phone with me for phone. He was on the phone with me for 45 minutes, an hour. He wouldn't get 45 minutes, an hour. He wouldn't get 45 minutes, an hour. He wouldn't get off. off. off. >> Wow. and he was telling me that my story >> Wow. and he was telling me that my story >> Wow. and he was telling me that my story was wrong and this that and the other was wrong and this that and the other was wrong and this that and the other and and so on and and I remember I went and and so on and and I remember I went and and so on and and I remember I went in the next day and I wrote the story in the next day and I wrote the story in the next day and I wrote the story the way I had been told by him and and I the way I had been told by him and and I the way I had been told by him and and I published it and then afterwards I was published it and then afterwards I was published it and then afterwards I was like wait like wait like wait >> I wasn't wrong like I just got >> I wasn't wrong like I just got >> I wasn't wrong like I just got completely played and John Marov who who completely played and John Marov who who completely played and John Marov who who had been a tech reporter for many many had been a tech reporter for many many had been a tech reporter for many many years at the time said he came over to years at the time said he came over to years at the time said he came over to me and he said one word he said not his me and he said one word he said not his me and he said one word he said not his three words he said the real uh the three words he said the real uh the three words he said the real uh the Steve Jobs reality distortion field so Steve Jobs reality distortion field so Steve Jobs reality distortion field so forwards and he said um I was like what forwards and he said um I was like what forwards and he said um I was like what do you mean? He goes he's every it's do you mean? He goes he's every it's do you mean? He goes he's every it's what he does. He's like he can change what he does. He's like he can change what he does. He's like he can change the way you feel about something and it the way you feel about something and it the way you feel about something and it happened. I interacted with him a lot happened. I interacted with him a lot happened. I interacted with him a lot and um and it would happen every time and um and it would happen every time and um and it would happen every time and I got I got good at at realizing oh and I got I got good at at realizing oh and I got I got good at at realizing oh it the reality distortion field is it the reality distortion field is it the reality distortion field is coming on and and then he stopped coming on and and then he stopped coming on and and then he stopped calling me because I wouldn't listen to calling me because I wouldn't listen to calling me because I wouldn't listen to him anymore. him anymore. him anymore. But he um you know he was a master at But he um you know he was a master at But he um you know he was a master at making you believe the thing that he making you believe the thing that he making you believe the thing that he wanted you to believe. And um and he and wanted you to believe. And um and he and wanted you to believe. And um and he and I think that people, I think that people, I think that people, you know, they looked at him uh a lot of you know, they looked at him uh a lot of you know, they looked at him uh a lot of these tech titans like that's who I want these tech titans like that's who I want these tech titans like that's who I want to be when I grow up. And people and to be when I grow up. And people and to be when I grow up. And people and what's fascinating what's fascinating what's fascinating from a storytelling perspective is they from a storytelling perspective is they from a storytelling perspective is they chose which part of him they wanted to chose which part of him they wanted to chose which part of him they wanted to tell as their story. So the [ __ ] tell as their story. So the [ __ ] tell as their story. So the [ __ ] picked the [ __ ] and made themselves picked the [ __ ] and made themselves picked the [ __ ] and made themselves more justifiable. Then the product more justifiable. Then the product more justifiable. Then the product people picked the product you know and I people picked the product you know and I people picked the product you know and I think um you know I think he was largely think um you know I think he was largely think um you know I think he was largely more influential in the way these people more influential in the way these people more influential in the way these people think about themselves than anyone in think about themselves than anyone in think about themselves than anyone in human history quite frankly. human history quite frankly. human history quite frankly. >> Yeah. These people who >> Yeah. These people who >> Yeah. These people who become billionaires and it has this become billionaires and it has this become billionaires and it has this warping effect on their perspective on warping effect on their perspective on warping effect on their perspective on the world when they can literally, you the world when they can literally, you the world when they can literally, you know, basically create seismic shifts in know, basically create seismic shifts in know, basically create seismic shifts in society by dent of a simple decision and society by dent of a simple decision and society by dent of a simple decision and understanding that story is more understanding that story is more understanding that story is more important than truth. and being able to important than truth. and being able to important than truth. and being able to wield a story that is in service to wield a story that is in service to wield a story that is in service to whatever that person wants people to whatever that person wants people to whatever that person wants people to believe uh can literally believe uh can literally believe uh can literally change everybody's perspective on that change everybody's perspective on that change everybody's perspective on that person. Dating all the way back to like person. Dating all the way back to like person. Dating all the way back to like Jack Dorsey's origin story with Twitter. Jack Dorsey's origin story with Twitter. Jack Dorsey's origin story with Twitter. I had a version of that that kind of I had a version of that that kind of I had a version of that that kind of reality distortion experience. I I had reality distortion experience. I I had reality distortion experience. I I had Jack on the podcast. This is very early Jack on the podcast. This is very early Jack on the podcast. This is very early on. I went to his house. I basically on. I went to his house. I basically on. I went to his house. I basically spent like the better part of a day with spent like the better part of a day with spent like the better part of a day with him and I left that experience just him and I left that experience just him and I left that experience just enamored with this guy and I was so enamored with this guy and I was so enamored with this guy and I was so charmed by his charisma and his warmth charmed by his charisma and his warmth charmed by his charisma and his warmth and I thought if anybody should be and I thought if anybody should be and I thought if anybody should be running Twitter it's this guy. This is a running Twitter it's this guy. This is a running Twitter it's this guy. This is a guy who is like created a a world in guy who is like created a a world in guy who is like created a a world in which he carves out time to think deeply which he carves out time to think deeply which he carves out time to think deeply about these difficult decisions. And I about these difficult decisions. And I about these difficult decisions. And I just couldn't imagine like I I couldn't just couldn't imagine like I I couldn't just couldn't imagine like I I couldn't understand why people were having such understand why people were having such understand why people were having such issues with him because I had been, you issues with him because I had been, you issues with him because I had been, you know, I I I had like gone into his know, I I I had like gone into his know, I I I had like gone into his environment and, you know, like sort of environment and, you know, like sort of environment and, you know, like sort of marinated in the Jack Dorsey experience marinated in the Jack Dorsey experience marinated in the Jack Dorsey experience and uh and and now looking at kind of and uh and and now looking at kind of and uh and and now looking at kind of like where Jack is now and and these like where Jack is now and and these like where Jack is now and and these other people, you know, I I I sort of other people, you know, I I I sort of other people, you know, I I I sort of reflect back on that and was like, was I reflect back on that and was like, was I reflect back on that and was like, was I played? Was that genuine? I still don't played? Was that genuine? I still don't played? Was that genuine? I still don't know. Um, I like to see the best in know. Um, I like to see the best in know. Um, I like to see the best in people and believe the best in people, people and believe the best in people, people and believe the best in people, but I can't imagine what it's like to be but I can't imagine what it's like to be but I can't imagine what it's like to be a billionaire who is wielding such a billionaire who is wielding such a billionaire who is wielding such unbelievable influence on the world. And unbelievable influence on the world. And unbelievable influence on the world. And I think what happens is I think what happens is I think what happens is with that wealth and that um power comes with that wealth and that um power comes with that wealth and that um power comes this sort of sense that uh well, you this sort of sense that uh well, you this sort of sense that uh well, you were so successful here that you must be were so successful here that you must be were so successful here that you must be right about all these other things. like right about all these other things. like right about all these other things. like this galaxy brain kind of mentality that this galaxy brain kind of mentality that this galaxy brain kind of mentality that takes over that then spills into takes over that then spills into takes over that then spills into perspectives on politics and culture and perspectives on politics and culture and perspectives on politics and culture and all these areas that have nothing to do all these areas that have nothing to do all these areas that have nothing to do with you know being a successful with you know being a successful with you know being a successful entrepreneur necessarily. Well, you just entrepreneur necessarily. Well, you just entrepreneur necessarily. Well, you just summed up everyone in Silicon Valley. summed up everyone in Silicon Valley. summed up everyone in Silicon Valley. Like every single person who's Like every single person who's Like every single person who's successful, who's a billionaire that successful, who's a billionaire that successful, who's a billionaire that I've ever met, and I've met them all, I've ever met, and I've met them all, I've ever met, and I've met them all, they all think, "Oh, I'm the billionaire they all think, "Oh, I'm the billionaire they all think, "Oh, I'm the billionaire who is this successful, who is this successful, who is this successful, who, you know, clearly knows what who, you know, clearly knows what who, you know, clearly knows what they're doing in this arena, so I know they're doing in this arena, so I know they're doing in this arena, so I know what I'm doing in every single one." what I'm doing in every single one." what I'm doing in every single one." >> And I could cite a million instances >> And I could cite a million instances >> And I could cite a million instances where people, you know, I'm an I'm the where people, you know, I'm an I'm the where people, you know, I'm an I'm the world's expert on real estate. I'm the world's expert on real estate. I'm the world's expert on real estate. I'm the world's expert on COVID 19. I'm the And world's expert on COVID 19. I'm the And world's expert on COVID 19. I'm the And it's like and they and then you know it's like and they and then you know it's like and they and then you know people like Elon like um you know uh Sam people like Elon like um you know uh Sam people like Elon like um you know uh Sam Harris is a good friend of mine and and Harris is a good friend of mine and and Harris is a good friend of mine and and he got into a debate with Elon about co he got into a debate with Elon about co he got into a debate with Elon about co 19 and and Sam proved to be right and 19 and and Sam proved to be right and 19 and and Sam proved to be right and Elon stopped talking to him and and it's Elon stopped talking to him and and it's Elon stopped talking to him and and it's that's the mentality. you're not in my that's the mentality. you're not in my that's the mentality. you're not in my yes man circle, then you're out. And and yes man circle, then you're out. And and yes man circle, then you're out. And and and so it becomes this reinforcing and so it becomes this reinforcing and so it becomes this reinforcing >> Yeah. self reinforcing cycle and you >> Yeah. self reinforcing cycle and you >> Yeah. self reinforcing cycle and you know all the way to like hey is know all the way to like hey is know all the way to like hey is democracy really working like maybe we democracy really working like maybe we democracy really working like maybe we should you know like go back to some should you know like go back to some should you know like go back to some kind of monarchistic society like when kind of monarchistic society like when kind of monarchistic society like when you see this dark enlightenment movement you see this dark enlightenment movement you see this dark enlightenment movement and these very influential people like and these very influential people like and these very influential people like Naval Ravakant and like you know the Naval Ravakant and like you know the Naval Ravakant and like you know the kind of these like um you know gurus of kind of these like um you know gurus of kind of these like um you know gurus of Silicon Valley who have such outsized Silicon Valley who have such outsized Silicon Valley who have such outsized influence as a result of becoming influence as a result of becoming influence as a result of becoming successful in technology That is deeply successful in technology That is deeply successful in technology That is deeply concerning to me because they do wield concerning to me because they do wield concerning to me because they do wield so much influence. And if you know these so much influence. And if you know these so much influence. And if you know these people say something online like people people say something online like people people say something online like people pay attention and listen and you know pay attention and listen and you know pay attention and listen and you know kind of now here we are you know being kind of now here we are you know being kind of now here we are you know being lured into the web of uh you know kind lured into the web of uh you know kind lured into the web of uh you know kind of these these you know crypto state of these these you know crypto state of these these you know crypto state recessionists you know where everything recessionists you know where everything recessionists you know where everything is in question and these people know is in question and these people know is in question and these people know better than any expert in their better than any expert in their better than any expert in their respective field. Yeah. And I think respective field. Yeah. And I think respective field. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that, you know, that, you know, like Jack Dorsey is a perfect example like Jack Dorsey is a perfect example like Jack Dorsey is a perfect example because because because Jack, if you as I researched with the Jack, if you as I researched with the Jack, if you as I researched with the book, um he changed the story of how book, um he changed the story of how book, um he changed the story of how Twitter was founded Twitter was founded Twitter was founded hundreds of times quite literally. Like hundreds of times quite literally. Like hundreds of times quite literally. Like it was like at first it was uh he came it was like at first it was uh he came it was like at first it was uh he came up with it um you know on a slide in a up with it um you know on a slide in a up with it um you know on a slide in a park with Bisone and then it was oh park with Bisone and then it was oh park with Bisone and then it was oh actually I came up with it when I was a actually I came up with it when I was a actually I came up with it when I was a kid in my bedroom watching police kid in my bedroom watching police kid in my bedroom watching police scanners. Oh, actually it was in Oakland scanners. Oh, actually it was in Oakland scanners. Oh, actually it was in Oakland when I was a babysitter with blue hair when I was a babysitter with blue hair when I was a babysitter with blue hair and and it all changed and the reality and and it all changed and the reality and and it all changed and the reality is he came up with one slither of the is he came up with one slither of the is he came up with one slither of the idea as did other people specifically idea as did other people specifically idea as did other people specifically Noah Glass as the book talks about Noah Glass as the book talks about Noah Glass as the book talks about >> and Noah was written out of history and >> and Noah was written out of history and >> and Noah was written out of history and the same thing is true with Square. the same thing is true with Square. the same thing is true with Square. >> Jack didn't come up with Square. A >> Jack didn't come up with Square. A >> Jack didn't come up with Square. A friend of his did and he took the idea friend of his did and he took the idea friend of his did and he took the idea and so on and so forth. And it's we just and so on and so forth. And it's we just and so on and so forth. And it's we just we just saw it recently. You know, we just saw it recently. You know, we just saw it recently. You know, Square just laid off half of their Square just laid off half of their Square just laid off half of their workforce, almost half of their workforce, almost half of their workforce, almost half of their workforce. Um and Jack cited it as um as workforce. Um and Jack cited it as um as workforce. Um and Jack cited it as um as AI. Well, actually, if you go and look AI. Well, actually, if you go and look AI. Well, actually, if you go and look and you you actually dig a little and you you actually dig a little and you you actually dig a little further than oh almighty uh tech guru is further than oh almighty uh tech guru is further than oh almighty uh tech guru is is way ahead of the curve, the the the is way ahead of the curve, the the the is way ahead of the curve, the the the his employee base has doubled in size in his employee base has doubled in size in his employee base has doubled in size in the last few years for no reason other the last few years for no reason other the last few years for no reason other than it's not run well. And so the than it's not run well. And so the than it's not run well. And so the narrative was let's get rid of half of narrative was let's get rid of half of narrative was let's get rid of half of the employees and say it's we're doing the employees and say it's we're doing the employees and say it's we're doing because of AI. It's literally back to because of AI. It's literally back to because of AI. It's literally back to what it was a few years ago. what it was a few years ago. what it was a few years ago. >> It was just management poor management >> It was just management poor management >> It was just management poor management decisions decisions decisions >> and the stock went up because and I >> and the stock went up because and I >> and the stock went up because and I another example look at the Tesla stock. another example look at the Tesla stock. another example look at the Tesla stock. Like Elon can talk about how he is going Like Elon can talk about how he is going Like Elon can talk about how he is going to have a million taxis you know in two to have a million taxis you know in two to have a million taxis you know in two years and there's like 12 of them. years and there's like 12 of them. years and there's like 12 of them. >> Yeah. It doesn't matter if it's true or >> Yeah. It doesn't matter if it's true or >> Yeah. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. It never bears out. Just like the not. It never bears out. Just like the not. It never bears out. Just like the Boring Company story, like he can just Boring Company story, like he can just Boring Company story, like he can just say, "Oh, we're going to have full say, "Oh, we're going to have full say, "Oh, we're going to have full self-driving by this day." And he can self-driving by this day." And he can self-driving by this day." And he can move the stock price immediately. move the stock price immediately. move the stock price immediately. >> And every time you look through the >> And every time you look through the >> And every time you look through the rearview mirror 6 months later on things rearview mirror 6 months later on things rearview mirror 6 months later on things that he says, like these things never that he says, like these things never that he says, like these things never end up bearing out, but it doesn't end up bearing out, but it doesn't end up bearing out, but it doesn't matter. And this is mirrored in the matter. And this is mirrored in the matter. And this is mirrored in the Trump administration. Like it's just Trump administration. Like it's just Trump administration. Like it's just rhetoric. rhetoric. rhetoric. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And just move on. And there never seems >> And just move on. And there never seems >> And just move on. And there never seems to be any kind of reconciliation or to be any kind of reconciliation or to be any kind of reconciliation or accounting for these statements. accounting for these statements. accounting for these statements. >> Well, I think even like self like >> Well, I think even like self like >> Well, I think even like self like >> a normal person would think, yeah, I say >> a normal person would think, yeah, I say >> a normal person would think, yeah, I say these crazy things and they never these crazy things and they never these crazy things and they never happen. Maybe I should reflect a little happen. Maybe I should reflect a little happen. Maybe I should reflect a little bit on my relationship with truth and bit on my relationship with truth and bit on my relationship with truth and veracity and like what does that say veracity and like what does that say veracity and like what does that say about me? Like these people don't do about me? Like these people don't do about me? Like these people don't do that. It doesn't matter. They don't that. It doesn't matter. They don't that. It doesn't matter. They don't care. The thing that I think is is so care. The thing that I think is is so care. The thing that I think is is so shocking to me and I do not understand shocking to me and I do not understand shocking to me and I do not understand it. I don't know if you have an answer. it. I don't know if you have an answer. it. I don't know if you have an answer. I don't understand. We are in a world I don't understand. We are in a world I don't understand. We are in a world where you can for the first time in where you can for the first time in where you can for the first time in human history, you can have a human history, you can have a human history, you can have a conversation with machines that can tell conversation with machines that can tell conversation with machines that can tell you what is right and what is wrong. And you what is right and what is wrong. And you what is right and what is wrong. And for the most part, with the exception of for the most part, with the exception of for the most part, with the exception of hallucinations and so on and so forth, hallucinations and so on and so forth, hallucinations and so on and so forth, they can actually detail it. So when you they can actually detail it. So when you they can actually detail it. So when you go and ask, you know, Claude or or go and ask, you know, Claude or or go and ask, you know, Claude or or Gemini or Chat, whatever you talk to Gemini or Chat, whatever you talk to Gemini or Chat, whatever you talk to about the history of of Square's about the history of of Square's about the history of of Square's employees and the number and so on and employees and the number and so on and employees and the number and so on and so forth and revenues and and and blah so forth and revenues and and and blah so forth and revenues and and and blah blah blah, it will show you. blah blah, it will show you. blah blah, it will show you. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But no one asks these questions. If you >> But no one asks these questions. If you >> But no one asks these questions. If you go and ask, is it realistic that Tesla go and ask, is it realistic that Tesla go and ask, is it realistic that Tesla is going to have a million self-driving is going to have a million self-driving is going to have a million self-driving cars in this period of time or or cars in this period of time or or cars in this period of time or or humanoid robots in your house and so on humanoid robots in your house and so on humanoid robots in your house and so on and so forth? like we we but no one and so forth? like we we but no one and so forth? like we we but no one wants to do that. They just say, "Oh, wants to do that. They just say, "Oh, wants to do that. They just say, "Oh, that's it quick." And the stock goes that's it quick." And the stock goes that's it quick." And the stock goes flying through the roof and and flying through the roof and and flying through the roof and and everyone's like, "All hail Elon." And I everyone's like, "All hail Elon." And I everyone's like, "All hail Elon." And I think it's like and Mark Zuckerberg too think it's like and Mark Zuckerberg too think it's like and Mark Zuckerberg too with social media and the and and it's with social media and the and and it's with social media and the and and it's just to me what I don't understand is just to me what I don't understand is just to me what I don't understand is why don't people ask questions? Why do why don't people ask questions? Why do why don't people ask questions? Why do they just take it as as gospel? they just take it as as gospel? they just take it as as gospel? >> I think it has something to do with the >> I think it has something to do with the >> I think it has something to do with the power of storytelling. like take these power of storytelling. like take these power of storytelling. like take these people who are so image conscious people who are so image conscious people who are so image conscious they've crafted a certain public image they've crafted a certain public image they've crafted a certain public image >> tailored to what people seem to like >> tailored to what people seem to like >> tailored to what people seem to like that then becomes you know like that then becomes you know like that then becomes you know like enamoring to people like for some reason enamoring to people like for some reason enamoring to people like for some reason and maybe this is related to like and maybe this is related to like and maybe this is related to like monarch monarchism like like oh a leader monarch monarchism like like oh a leader monarch monarchism like like oh a leader that I can look up to and I believe in that I can look up to and I believe in that I can look up to and I believe in and will fuel my cognitive dissonance it and will fuel my cognitive dissonance it and will fuel my cognitive dissonance it doesn't matter what's true like I like doesn't matter what's true like I like doesn't matter what's true like I like that guy and for some reason my affinity that guy and for some reason my affinity that guy and for some reason my affinity for this person makes me feel like I'm for this person makes me feel like I'm for this person makes me feel like I'm in proximity to them. in proximity to them. in proximity to them. >> Mhm. I also think I think you're >> Mhm. I also think I think you're >> Mhm. I also think I think you're completely right. I also think that completely right. I also think that completely right. I also think that there's another thing and and if I were there's another thing and and if I were there's another thing and and if I were to say the biggest lesson I've learned to say the biggest lesson I've learned to say the biggest lesson I've learned in my life as a professional over the in my life as a professional over the in my life as a professional over the last 30 years last 30 years last 30 years is that people are just people. you is that people are just people. you is that people are just people. you know, they all get headaches and they know, they all get headaches and they know, they all get headaches and they all have anxiety and they all want to be all have anxiety and they all want to be all have anxiety and they all want to be loved and and and loved and and and loved and and and >> and they all want to believe that >> and they all want to believe that >> and they all want to believe that they're good people doing the right they're good people doing the right they're good people doing the right thing and acting, you know, acting on thing and acting, you know, acting on thing and acting, you know, acting on behalf of the betterment of society behalf of the betterment of society behalf of the betterment of society >> and they want to believe that and I >> and they want to believe that and I >> and they want to believe that and I think that what ends what happens is think that what ends what happens is think that what ends what happens is because of media everyone people become because of media everyone people become because of media everyone people become more and more famous and so on and so more and more famous and so on and so more and more famous and so on and so forth and we we look at these people and forth and we we look at these people and forth and we we look at these people and we're like like it's why people get so we're like like it's why people get so we're like like it's why people get so nervous when they meet celebrities or nervous when they meet celebrities or nervous when they meet celebrities or they meet, you know, leaders, they're they meet, you know, leaders, they're they meet, you know, leaders, they're just people. Like, it's I I never get just people. Like, it's I I never get just people. Like, it's I I never get nervous when I go and interview someone nervous when I go and interview someone nervous when I go and interview someone or when or because I'm like, you're just or when or because I'm like, you're just or when or because I'm like, you're just a person. You probably woke up this a person. You probably woke up this a person. You probably woke up this morning and you you didn't sleep well morning and you you didn't sleep well morning and you you didn't sleep well last night cuz your dog was sick and last night cuz your dog was sick and last night cuz your dog was sick and your kids or what all these things that your kids or what all these things that your kids or what all these things that we all experience, but they make it look we all experience, but they make it look we all experience, but they make it look like it doesn't happen. And and I think like it doesn't happen. And and I think like it doesn't happen. And and I think that so they create this [ __ ] that so they create this [ __ ] that so they create this [ __ ] narrative around who they are and what narrative around who they are and what narrative around who they are and what they are and that they're going to live they are and that they're going to live they are and that they're going to live forever or that because I'm a forever or that because I'm a forever or that because I'm a billionaire I'm an expert on everything billionaire I'm an expert on everything billionaire I'm an expert on everything and it's all nonsense. And I think once and it's all nonsense. And I think once and it's all nonsense. And I think once we get to a point where people realize we get to a point where people realize we get to a point where people realize it's nonsense, maybe that that's when it it's nonsense, maybe that that's when it it's nonsense, maybe that that's when it changes. But I don't know if people want changes. But I don't know if people want changes. But I don't know if people want to believe that it's nonsense. to believe that it's nonsense. to believe that it's nonsense. >> I don't see that happening. >> I don't see that happening. >> I don't see that happening. >> I think that they want they believe that >> I think that they want they believe that >> I think that they want they believe that these are the gods, these are the gods, these are the gods, >> right? And now we have AI. So take open >> right? And now we have AI. So take open >> right? And now we have AI. So take open AI for example. um the storytelling AI for example. um the storytelling AI for example. um the storytelling around that and the cognitive dissonance around that and the cognitive dissonance around that and the cognitive dissonance with you know the titans that are at the with you know the titans that are at the with you know the titans that are at the helm of these respective AI companies helm of these respective AI companies helm of these respective AI companies who are obviously spinning a yarn and who are obviously spinning a yarn and who are obviously spinning a yarn and doing some very advanced storytelling doing some very advanced storytelling doing some very advanced storytelling around how we should think about this as around how we should think about this as around how we should think about this as they you know kind of accumulate power they you know kind of accumulate power they you know kind of accumulate power and and you know are participating in and and you know are participating in and and you know are participating in this race towards AGI etc. Well, what's this race towards AGI etc. Well, what's this race towards AGI etc. Well, what's fascinating about the storytelling fascinating about the storytelling fascinating about the storytelling around AI is two things. One is around AI is two things. One is around AI is two things. One is the fear that we're all going to be the fear that we're all going to be the fear that we're all going to be killed by AI. It's actually true. Like, killed by AI. It's actually true. Like, killed by AI. It's actually true. Like, I def genuinely worry about it. But it's I def genuinely worry about it. But it's I def genuinely worry about it. But it's also part of their fundraising. Um, and also part of their fundraising. Um, and also part of their fundraising. Um, and so, you know, you've got Sam and Elon so, you know, you've got Sam and Elon so, you know, you've got Sam and Elon and all these people out there being and all these people out there being and all these people out there being like, "We're going to die. We need more like, "We're going to die. We need more like, "We're going to die. We need more money to make sure we don't." And and or money to make sure we don't." And and or money to make sure we don't." And and or you know, and and the bucketloads of you know, and and the bucketloads of you know, and and the bucketloads of cash come in. It's it's all for them. cash come in. It's it's all for them. cash come in. It's it's all for them. It's about it's a fundraising mechanism. It's about it's a fundraising mechanism. It's about it's a fundraising mechanism. And the other thing is someone said to And the other thing is someone said to And the other thing is someone said to me, I did a a story for Vanity Fair a me, I did a a story for Vanity Fair a me, I did a a story for Vanity Fair a couple years ago about AI and creativity couple years ago about AI and creativity couple years ago about AI and creativity and how was going to replace jobs and so and how was going to replace jobs and so and how was going to replace jobs and so on and so forth. And one person said to on and so forth. And one person said to on and so forth. And one person said to me, um, a very clever uh thinker on this me, um, a very clever uh thinker on this me, um, a very clever uh thinker on this stuff said, "I'm not worried about AI stuff said, "I'm not worried about AI stuff said, "I'm not worried about AI destroying humanity. I'm worried about destroying humanity. I'm worried about destroying humanity. I'm worried about Sam Alman running an AI company that he Sam Alman running an AI company that he Sam Alman running an AI company that he will lead to destroy humanity or someone will lead to destroy humanity or someone will lead to destroy humanity or someone else." And the reason for that is else." And the reason for that is else." And the reason for that is because they are so obsessed because they are so obsessed because they are so obsessed with being first and the story of you with being first and the story of you with being first and the story of you know of the the first person to create know of the the first person to create know of the the first person to create AGI that they put all the other things AGI that they put all the other things AGI that they put all the other things aside and the goal is it's about them. aside and the goal is it's about them. aside and the goal is it's about them. It's not about the AI. It's about them It's not about the AI. It's about them It's not about the AI. It's about them as the leader of the AI company. And um as the leader of the AI company. And um as the leader of the AI company. And um and it's what's crazy is you know I and it's what's crazy is you know I and it's what's crazy is you know I wrote in hatching Twitter this was a wrote in hatching Twitter this was a wrote in hatching Twitter this was a white box on a screen that you could white box on a screen that you could white box on a screen that you could type 140 characters into. Look what it type 140 characters into. Look what it type 140 characters into. Look what it did to the world. It changed it in it's did to the world. It changed it in it's did to the world. It changed it in it's the reason Donald Trump is in office. Uh the reason Donald Trump is in office. Uh the reason Donald Trump is in office. Uh he ran for office many many many times he ran for office many many many times he ran for office many many many times before. It's the reason that we have all before. It's the reason that we have all before. It's the reason that we have all of the the culture we live in today. Um of the the culture we live in today. Um of the the culture we live in today. Um and that was just a white box with 140 and that was just a white box with 140 and that was just a white box with 140 characters. Now there's this new box characters. Now there's this new box characters. Now there's this new box that we can type into that is way more that we can type into that is way more that we can type into that is way more powerful and we're all just doing it powerful and we're all just doing it powerful and we're all just doing it without thinking about what happened the without thinking about what happened the without thinking about what happened the last time and and all these people don't last time and and all these people don't last time and and all these people don't care because they want to be famous and care because they want to be famous and care because they want to be famous and rich and rich and rich and >> the creator of the last invention. >> the creator of the last invention. >> the creator of the last invention. >> There's lip service to safety >> There's lip service to safety >> There's lip service to safety considerations etc. But as far as I can considerations etc. But as far as I can considerations etc. But as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be a lot of tell, there doesn't seem to be a lot of tell, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to suggest that any real evidence to suggest that any real evidence to suggest that any real efforts or deep or or deep work is going efforts or deep or or deep work is going efforts or deep or or deep work is going into ensuring safe ensuring that you into ensuring safe ensuring that you into ensuring safe ensuring that you know these things have guardrails on know these things have guardrails on know these things have guardrails on them and that they are in the public them and that they are in the public them and that they are in the public interest. It's just this race forward um interest. It's just this race forward um interest. It's just this race forward um based on fear and lack like we have to based on fear and lack like we have to based on fear and lack like we have to do it before China, etc. It's important. do it before China, etc. It's important. do it before China, etc. It's important. I'm the one who's in charge. You should I'm the one who's in charge. You should I'm the one who's in charge. You should give your money to me. You should trust give your money to me. You should trust give your money to me. You should trust me. We have no reason to trust any of me. We have no reason to trust any of me. We have no reason to trust any of these people. And all the evidence these people. And all the evidence these people. And all the evidence suggests that this is going to damage us suggests that this is going to damage us suggests that this is going to damage us in ways that we can't even possibly in ways that we can't even possibly in ways that we can't even possibly begin to imagine. And yet it's so begin to imagine. And yet it's so begin to imagine. And yet it's so convenient and helpful in the short term convenient and helpful in the short term convenient and helpful in the short term uh and entertaining in the way that uh uh and entertaining in the way that uh uh and entertaining in the way that uh in an advanced way in comparison to in an advanced way in comparison to in an advanced way in comparison to Twitter and 140 characters allowed us to Twitter and 140 characters allowed us to Twitter and 140 characters allowed us to kind of be lulled into this world of kind of be lulled into this world of kind of be lulled into this world of social media that you know I think it's social media that you know I think it's social media that you know I think it's pretty clear to everybody right now has pretty clear to everybody right now has pretty clear to everybody right now has deranged us in in in ways we couldn't deranged us in in in ways we couldn't deranged us in in in ways we couldn't have imagined when you know you wrote have imagined when you know you wrote have imagined when you know you wrote hatching Twitter. It's deranged us in in hatching Twitter. It's deranged us in in hatching Twitter. It's deranged us in in so many ways and it's you see it with um so many ways and it's you see it with um so many ways and it's you see it with um uh you see it with podcasts funnily uh you see it with podcasts funnily uh you see it with podcasts funnily enough you know enough you know enough you know >> because the incentive structure >> because the incentive structure >> because the incentive structure >> incentive structure like Tucker Carlson >> incentive structure like Tucker Carlson >> incentive structure like Tucker Carlson >> like the the guests have gotten crazier >> like the the guests have gotten crazier >> like the the guests have gotten crazier and crazier Megan Kelly the anger about and crazier Megan Kelly the anger about and crazier Megan Kelly the anger about you know fighting with people that she you know fighting with people that she you know fighting with people that she was once close with or or Ben Shapiro was once close with or or Ben Shapiro was once close with or or Ben Shapiro doing the same thing. It's like they're doing the same thing. It's like they're doing the same thing. It's like they're all they all just come at each other and all they all just come at each other and all they all just come at each other and then and then the you know the Pod Save then and then the you know the Pod Save then and then the you know the Pod Save America guys, they like go even deeper America guys, they like go even deeper America guys, they like go even deeper on the left because it's the incentive on the left because it's the incentive on the left because it's the incentive structure is the more structure is the more structure is the more insane and intense and scary and and and insane and intense and scary and and and insane and intense and scary and and and the more I pull back the covers on the the more I pull back the covers on the the more I pull back the covers on the real thing, the more views I get and the real thing, the more views I get and the real thing, the more views I get and the more crazy we get as society. And it more crazy we get as society. And it more crazy we get as society. And it just it just is this this spiral. just it just is this this spiral. just it just is this this spiral. >> I think about this all the time, you >> I think about this all the time, you >> I think about this all the time, you know. Yeah. Podcasting has become all know. Yeah. Podcasting has become all know. Yeah. Podcasting has become all about like they're lying to you or the about like they're lying to you or the about like they're lying to you or the number one expert who's going to tell number one expert who's going to tell number one expert who's going to tell you the thing no one wants you to know. you the thing no one wants you to know. you the thing no one wants you to know. And unless you're platforming just, you And unless you're platforming just, you And unless you're platforming just, you know, kind of conspiracy adult people or know, kind of conspiracy adult people or know, kind of conspiracy adult people or uh the the person with the hottest uh the the person with the hottest uh the the person with the hottest craziest take the extremism in, you craziest take the extremism in, you craziest take the extremism in, you know, across the board on all sides of know, across the board on all sides of know, across the board on all sides of the spectrum. uh you have no chance at the spectrum. uh you have no chance at the spectrum. uh you have no chance at garnering eyeballs and getting attention garnering eyeballs and getting attention garnering eyeballs and getting attention and the incentives to you know the and the incentives to you know the and the incentives to you know the incentive structure is such that like if incentive structure is such that like if incentive structure is such that like if you if you want that then this is what you if you want that then this is what you if you want that then this is what you need to do and that's the dollars you need to do and that's the dollars you need to do and that's the dollars follow and as somebody who's been doing follow and as somebody who's been doing follow and as somebody who's been doing this show for a very long time I you this show for a very long time I you this show for a very long time I you know from the very early days into now know from the very early days into now know from the very early days into now it's like where do we even sit with this it's like where do we even sit with this it's like where do we even sit with this anymore you know like there's a reason anymore you know like there's a reason anymore you know like there's a reason why I do this show there's a purpose and why I do this show there's a purpose and why I do this show there's a purpose and a meaning behind it that I care about a meaning behind it that I care about a meaning behind it that I care about and I see these other people and and and and I see these other people and and and and I see these other people and and and how like these other podcasts that have how like these other podcasts that have how like these other podcasts that have gotten really huge uh and they're gotten really huge uh and they're gotten really huge uh and they're influencing the next generation of influencing the next generation of influencing the next generation of podcasters and it has nothing to do with podcasters and it has nothing to do with podcasters and it has nothing to do with like asking yourself like why am I doing like asking yourself like why am I doing like asking yourself like why am I doing this in the first place? What am I this in the first place? What am I this in the first place? What am I hoping to accomplish? It's just like hoping to accomplish? It's just like hoping to accomplish? It's just like here's how you get big, here's how you here's how you get big, here's how you here's how you get big, here's how you get attention. It's like attention for get attention. It's like attention for get attention. It's like attention for what aim, for what purpose? Couldn't what aim, for what purpose? Couldn't what aim, for what purpose? Couldn't agree with you more. And it's like, you agree with you more. And it's like, you agree with you more. And it's like, you know, I thought I always thought that know, I thought I always thought that know, I thought I always thought that the debate about whether Hitler was a the debate about whether Hitler was a the debate about whether Hitler was a good person or a bad person wasn't a good person or a bad person wasn't a good person or a bad person wasn't a debate. It's like debate. It's like debate. It's like >> bad guy, you know, >> bad guy, you know, >> bad guy, you know, >> this is where we're at, you know, from >> this is where we're at, you know, from >> this is where we're at, you know, from 140 characters to this and people like, 140 characters to this and people like, 140 characters to this and people like, well, maybe we should have that well, maybe we should have that well, maybe we should have that conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Joe Rogan saying, "Oh, that's >> Joe Rogan saying, "Oh, that's >> Joe Rogan saying, "Oh, that's interesting about Hitler." It's like, interesting about Hitler." It's like, interesting about Hitler." It's like, it's you're like, "What are you talking it's you're like, "What are you talking it's you're like, "What are you talking about?" It's like, where about?" It's like, where about?" It's like, where how are we how are these things even a how are we how are these things even a how are we how are these things even a debate? Like, how are they even a debate? Like, how are they even a debate? Like, how are they even a conversation? Like, there are way more conversation? Like, there are way more conversation? Like, there are way more important things that we should be important things that we should be important things that we should be talking about that are real. Um, and um talking about that are real. Um, and um talking about that are real. Um, and um and it's it all comes down to the and it's it all comes down to the and it's it all comes down to the incentive structure. And this to me is incentive structure. And this to me is incentive structure. And this to me is where, you know, I do believe where, you know, I do believe where, you know, I do believe um that the the tech elite are evil. um that the the tech elite are evil. um that the the tech elite are evil. Quite honestly, I think that they Quite honestly, I think that they Quite honestly, I think that they >> um they know exactly what these things >> um they know exactly what these things >> um they know exactly what these things do. do. do. >> You know, uh Facebook knows there's like >> You know, uh Facebook knows there's like >> You know, uh Facebook knows there's like so much that has leaked about things so much that has leaked about things so much that has leaked about things that they know that are bad for kids and that they know that are bad for kids and that they know that are bad for kids and for society. And we and the same with for society. And we and the same with for society. And we and the same with Instagram and Twitter and and all these Instagram and Twitter and and all these Instagram and Twitter and and all these social platforms and yet and Tik Tok and social platforms and yet and Tik Tok and social platforms and yet and Tik Tok and and they do nothing to try to stop it. and they do nothing to try to stop it. and they do nothing to try to stop it. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> And and to me, look, I don't know if >> And and to me, look, I don't know if >> And and to me, look, I don't know if there is a God in the universe or there is a God in the universe or there is a God in the universe or there's some something, but if there is, there's some something, but if there is, there's some something, but if there is, >> they're not going through those pearly >> they're not going through those pearly >> they're not going through those pearly gates. The the the the gates. The the the the gates. The the the the things that they have done with intent things that they have done with intent things that they have done with intent and the and the unintentional, but then and the and the unintentional, but then and the and the unintentional, but then done nothing about it. Um, you know, done nothing about it. Um, you know, done nothing about it. Um, you know, look, I mean, look at Snap for example. look, I mean, look at Snap for example. look, I mean, look at Snap for example. There was a period of time, um, that There was a period of time, um, that There was a period of time, um, that Snap was, you know, the whole point was Snap was, you know, the whole point was Snap was, you know, the whole point was to so people could have disappearing to so people could have disappearing to so people could have disappearing messages and they wouldn't was a great messages and they wouldn't was a great messages and they wouldn't was a great intention, right? We want to make it so intention, right? We want to make it so intention, right? We want to make it so that you're not posting things on the that you're not posting things on the that you're not posting things on the internet that can come back and haunt internet that can come back and haunt internet that can come back and haunt you later. And then fast forward to a you later. And then fast forward to a you later. And then fast forward to a year ago, the number one cause of death year ago, the number one cause of death year ago, the number one cause of death among teens in the United States is among teens in the United States is among teens in the United States is fentinyl. You know where the one of the fentinyl. You know where the one of the fentinyl. You know where the one of the top places they buy it? Snap. And so and top places they buy it? Snap. And so and top places they buy it? Snap. And so and and there had to be a congressional and there had to be a congressional and there had to be a congressional hearing for them to even make any hearing for them to even make any hearing for them to even make any changes like these things. There are changes like these things. There are changes like these things. There are unintended consequences always, but our unintended consequences always, but our unintended consequences always, but our responsibility is to fix those. We never responsibility is to fix those. We never responsibility is to fix those. We never know what they are with technology. And know what they are with technology. And know what they are with technology. And then at the same time, there are then at the same time, there are then at the same time, there are consequences we know exist. One example consequences we know exist. One example consequences we know exist. One example is kids should not be using social media is kids should not be using social media is kids should not be using social media like this. It is just so unhealthy. I like this. It is just so unhealthy. I like this. It is just so unhealthy. I don't have it on my phone because I don't have it on my phone because I don't have it on my phone because I can't stop looking at it and I'm a grown can't stop looking at it and I'm a grown can't stop looking at it and I'm a grown adult who's written about it for 20some adult who's written about it for 20some adult who's written about it for 20some years. And these companies that hide all years. And these companies that hide all years. And these companies that hide all that data, I just think it's completely that data, I just think it's completely that data, I just think it's completely and utterly evil. and utterly evil. and utterly evil. As some of you know, I am in a very As some of you know, I am in a very As some of you know, I am in a very different season of training than I've different season of training than I've different season of training than I've ever been in before. I'm rebuilding ever been in before. I'm rebuilding ever been in before. I'm rebuilding slowly, intentionally after this spinal slowly, intentionally after this spinal slowly, intentionally after this spinal fusion surgery that I underwent this fusion surgery that I underwent this fusion surgery that I underwent this past May. And I'm learning what it means past May. And I'm learning what it means past May. And I'm learning what it means to be patient with my fitness and how to to be patient with my fitness and how to to be patient with my fitness and how to prioritize sustainability over prioritize sustainability over prioritize sustainability over intensity. And I got to say that Whoop, intensity. And I got to say that Whoop, intensity. And I got to say that Whoop, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 wearable, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 wearable, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 wearable, this thing you always see on my wrist this thing you always see on my wrist this thing you always see on my wrist right here, uh, has been this just right here, uh, has been this just right here, uh, has been this just enormously helpful companion in this enormously helpful companion in this enormously helpful companion in this process. It's a screenless wearable process. It's a screenless wearable process. It's a screenless wearable health and fitness coach that gives me health and fitness coach that gives me health and fitness coach that gives me personalized insights into my sleep, personalized insights into my sleep, personalized insights into my sleep, into my recovery, my strain, and my into my recovery, my strain, and my into my recovery, my strain, and my overall health, helping me to really overall health, helping me to really overall health, helping me to really understand what my body is actually understand what my body is actually understand what my body is actually ready for on any given day. And that ready for on any given day. And that ready for on any given day. And that awareness is what is helping me really awareness is what is helping me really awareness is what is helping me really stay focused and consistent, which is stay focused and consistent, which is stay focused and consistent, which is essentially everything right now. I do essentially everything right now. I do essentially everything right now. I do have some meaningful goals ahead. I am have some meaningful goals ahead. I am have some meaningful goals ahead. I am very intentional about getting back to very intentional about getting back to very intentional about getting back to pain-free running and hopefully lining pain-free running and hopefully lining pain-free running and hopefully lining up for the New York City Marathon to up for the New York City Marathon to up for the New York City Marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. 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Visit shocks.com and use code rich roll to shocks.com and use code rich roll to shocks.com and use code rich roll to receive an exclusive offer on your receive an exclusive offer on your receive an exclusive offer on your purchase. When I think back on some of my fondest When I think back on some of my fondest memories from childhood, 100% of them memories from childhood, 100% of them memories from childhood, 100% of them happened outdoors. Getting muddy in the happened outdoors. Getting muddy in the happened outdoors. Getting muddy in the local creek, riding my bike around the local creek, riding my bike around the local creek, riding my bike around the neighborhood. Basic good stuff that neighborhood. Basic good stuff that neighborhood. Basic good stuff that leaves me thinking a lot about what kind leaves me thinking a lot about what kind leaves me thinking a lot about what kind of world we're leaving behind for the of world we're leaving behind for the of world we're leaving behind for the next generation. And this, in a next generation. And this, in a next generation. And this, in a nutshell, is what Rivian is all about. nutshell, is what Rivian is all about. nutshell, is what Rivian is all about. They're an allect electric vehicle They're an allect electric vehicle They're an allect electric vehicle company founded on a simple idea. Keep company founded on a simple idea. Keep company founded on a simple idea. Keep the world adventurous forever. I've been the world adventurous forever. I've been the world adventurous forever. I've been around R.J. the CEO and his kids. And around R.J. the CEO and his kids. And around R.J. the CEO and his kids. And it's so clear to me that this is his it's so clear to me that this is his it's so clear to me that this is his animating purpose. But he's not just animating purpose. But he's not just animating purpose. But he's not just thinking about them. He's making thinking about them. He's making thinking about them. He's making decisions based upon what our kids kids decisions based upon what our kids kids decisions based upon what our kids kids will inherit. And that philosophy is will inherit. And that philosophy is will inherit. And that philosophy is just deeply embedded in everything just deeply embedded in everything just deeply embedded in everything Rivian builds. These are zero tailpipe Rivian builds. These are zero tailpipe Rivian builds. These are zero tailpipe emission vehicles without sacrificing emission vehicles without sacrificing emission vehicles without sacrificing power or performance. The interiors use power or performance. The interiors use power or performance. The interiors use thoughtful, sustainable materials that thoughtful, sustainable materials that thoughtful, sustainable materials that feel premium and intentional. And the feel premium and intentional. And the feel premium and intentional. And the first 10,000 miles are powered by 100% first 10,000 miles are powered by 100% first 10,000 miles are powered by 100% renewable energy with a growing charging renewable energy with a growing charging renewable energy with a growing charging network doing the same. It's not about network doing the same. It's not about network doing the same. It's not about choosing between exploring the world and choosing between exploring the world and choosing between exploring the world and protecting it. Rivian is like a passport protecting it. Rivian is like a passport protecting it. Rivian is like a passport to both. Meaning that when I'm driving to both. Meaning that when I'm driving to both. Meaning that when I'm driving the vehicle Rivian loan to me, I'm not the vehicle Rivian loan to me, I'm not the vehicle Rivian loan to me, I'm not just driving through the world I love. just driving through the world I love. just driving through the world I love. I'm driving for it, which is a pretty I'm driving for it, which is a pretty I'm driving for it, which is a pretty special feeling I want everyone to special feeling I want everyone to special feeling I want everyone to experience. You're somebody who when you put a book You're somebody who when you put a book out, I read it right away. Like I think out, I read it right away. Like I think out, I read it right away. Like I think people would be surprised uh that I people would be surprised uh that I people would be surprised uh that I actually actually actually don't read that much unless it's a book don't read that much unless it's a book don't read that much unless it's a book written by somebody who's coming on the written by somebody who's coming on the written by somebody who's coming on the podcast. Like that monopolizes most of podcast. Like that monopolizes most of podcast. Like that monopolizes most of my reading and it kind of crowds out uh my reading and it kind of crowds out uh my reading and it kind of crowds out uh the opportunity for pleasure reading. the opportunity for pleasure reading. the opportunity for pleasure reading. But both of your books I read like But both of your books I read like But both of your books I read like immediately when they came out and you immediately when they came out and you immediately when they came out and you have this unbelievable talent for uh have this unbelievable talent for uh have this unbelievable talent for uh like novelizing non-fiction and and you like novelizing non-fiction and and you like novelizing non-fiction and and you know creating these these books that know creating these these books that know creating these these books that that that read like thrillers. The book that that read like thrillers. The book that that read like thrillers. The book on Twitter and the Russell Albbrri book on Twitter and the Russell Albbrri book on Twitter and the Russell Albbrri book about the Silk Road um were just amazing about the Silk Road um were just amazing about the Silk Road um were just amazing works and uh and you're somebody who has works and uh and you're somebody who has works and uh and you're somebody who has uh a lot of irons in the fire. You do uh a lot of irons in the fire. You do uh a lot of irons in the fire. You do all of it. Like you make documentaries, all of it. Like you make documentaries, all of it. Like you make documentaries, you produce, you write, you've done you produce, you write, you've done you produce, you write, you've done scripted television, you're you do long scripted television, you're you do long scripted television, you're you do long form journalism, you know, written for form journalism, you know, written for form journalism, you know, written for Vanity Fair, you're even in the process Vanity Fair, you're even in the process Vanity Fair, you're even in the process of writing the book and the screenplay of writing the book and the screenplay of writing the book and the screenplay uh for this Martin Scorsesei movie with uh for this Martin Scorsesei movie with uh for this Martin Scorsesei movie with The Rock about the Hawaiian mafia. Uh The Rock about the Hawaiian mafia. Uh The Rock about the Hawaiian mafia. Uh this has to be perhaps like the most this has to be perhaps like the most this has to be perhaps like the most high-profile project that you've ever high-profile project that you've ever high-profile project that you've ever worked on. Yeah, I mean I I definitely I worked on. Yeah, I mean I I definitely I worked on. Yeah, I mean I I definitely I have um I have ADHD uh if you haven't have um I have ADHD uh if you haven't have um I have ADHD uh if you haven't noticed that, but um I and I I've kind noticed that, but um I and I I've kind noticed that, but um I and I I've kind of used it as a superpower to just do of used it as a superpower to just do of used it as a superpower to just do all different kinds of there. There's a all different kinds of there. There's a all different kinds of there. There's a theme which is storytelling of course. theme which is storytelling of course. theme which is storytelling of course. Um and then there's obviously some Um and then there's obviously some Um and then there's obviously some subtext to it which is somewhat subtext to it which is somewhat subtext to it which is somewhat technology but not necessarily technology but not necessarily technology but not necessarily technology is in devices because you technology is in devices because you technology is in devices because you know the mafia project you mentioned is know the mafia project you mentioned is know the mafia project you mentioned is set in the 1970s. But yeah, I mean, I set in the 1970s. But yeah, I mean, I set in the 1970s. But yeah, I mean, I just I love to tell stories and I just I just I love to tell stories and I just I just I love to tell stories and I just I love to take on a new challenge and I I love to take on a new challenge and I I love to take on a new challenge and I I don't say that like trying to be don't say that like trying to be don't say that like trying to be hyperbolic or any way, but if I've never hyperbolic or any way, but if I've never hyperbolic or any way, but if I've never done something before, to me that is the done something before, to me that is the done something before, to me that is the most exciting thing because I'm going to most exciting thing because I'm going to most exciting thing because I'm going to figure out how to do it and I'm going to figure out how to do it and I'm going to figure out how to do it and I'm going to do it differently cuz I'm not doing the do it differently cuz I'm not doing the do it differently cuz I'm not doing the traditional route. And so, yeah, I've traditional route. And so, yeah, I've traditional route. And so, yeah, I've done journalism and podcasts and movies done journalism and podcasts and movies done journalism and podcasts and movies and docs and and scripted TV, all of it. and docs and and scripted TV, all of it. and docs and and scripted TV, all of it. And um uh and it's uh it's it's just my And um uh and it's uh it's it's just my And um uh and it's uh it's it's just my ADHD at work. ADHD at work. ADHD at work. >> I mean I I have ADHD. I'm I can only do >> I mean I I have ADHD. I'm I can only do >> I mean I I have ADHD. I'm I can only do one thing at a time. Yeah. Like how does one thing at a time. Yeah. Like how does one thing at a time. Yeah. Like how does that operate for you? that operate for you? that operate for you? >> It's funny. My wife came in the other >> It's funny. My wife came in the other >> It's funny. My wife came in the other day uh into my office and I had two day uh into my office and I had two day uh into my office and I had two laptops open and I was like working on laptops open and I was like working on laptops open and I was like working on them. She's like what are you doing? And them. She's like what are you doing? And them. She's like what are you doing? And I was like and she took a picture and I was like and she took a picture and I was like and she took a picture and sent it to to a bunch of friends. But I sent it to to a bunch of friends. But I sent it to to a bunch of friends. But I was like I can work on two projects at was like I can work on two projects at was like I can work on two projects at once. And she was just like you're out once. And she was just like you're out once. And she was just like you're out of your mind. of your mind. of your mind. >> Yeah. That's interesting. Mine works in >> Yeah. That's interesting. Mine works in >> Yeah. That's interesting. Mine works in the opposite direction. I can do very the opposite direction. I can do very the opposite direction. I can do very well if I'm just put blinders on and well if I'm just put blinders on and well if I'm just put blinders on and focus on one thing. Uh and my wife is focus on one thing. Uh and my wife is focus on one thing. Uh and my wife is somebody who's doing lots of things at somebody who's doing lots of things at somebody who's doing lots of things at the same time and I'm just always the same time and I'm just always the same time and I'm just always marveling at that. Like I don't marveling at that. Like I don't marveling at that. Like I don't understand how that works. understand how that works. understand how that works. >> Do you do you procrastinate? >> Do you do you procrastinate? >> Do you do you procrastinate? >> Um I I do but I can lock into a flow >> Um I I do but I can lock into a flow >> Um I I do but I can lock into a flow state pretty easily if I'm super into state pretty easily if I'm super into state pretty easily if I'm super into the project that I'm working on and I the project that I'm working on and I the project that I'm working on and I can lose hours and hours and hours and I can lose hours and hours and hours and I can lose hours and hours and hours and I really don't want any interference. It's really don't want any interference. It's really don't want any interference. It's like I just want to be like I want the like I just want to be like I want the like I just want to be like I want the world to be to disappear and just to be world to be to disappear and just to be world to be to disappear and just to be immersed in whatever I'm working on, but immersed in whatever I'm working on, but immersed in whatever I'm working on, but I can't like gear shift very easily. I can't like gear shift very easily. I can't like gear shift very easily. >> Yeah, I gear shift. I don't >> Yeah, I gear shift. I don't >> Yeah, I gear shift. I don't procrastinate. Not a not a procrastinate. Not a not a procrastinate. Not a not a procrastinating. procrastinating. procrastinating. >> Yeah, you don't seem like somebody who >> Yeah, you don't seem like somebody who >> Yeah, you don't seem like somebody who has has has writer's block something that ever How writer's block something that ever How writer's block something that ever How do you think about that? do you think about that? do you think about that? >> No, I mean Well, I think in the age of >> No, I mean Well, I think in the age of >> No, I mean Well, I think in the age of AI, writer's block doesn't exist AI, writer's block doesn't exist AI, writer's block doesn't exist anymore. It's it's gone. Um there's no anymore. It's it's gone. Um there's no anymore. It's it's gone. Um there's no longer a blank page cuz you've always longer a blank page cuz you've always longer a blank page cuz you've always got something to help you. Uh but um but got something to help you. Uh but um but got something to help you. Uh but um but I I yeah I just if I find if I find the I I yeah I just if I find if I find the I I yeah I just if I find if I find the the gear starting to kind of get a the gear starting to kind of get a the gear starting to kind of get a little bored and I'm you know I just I'm little bored and I'm you know I just I'm little bored and I'm you know I just I'm like okay next project and move that like okay next project and move that like okay next project and move that over and work on that and over and work on that and over and work on that and >> and one of the things I learned >> and one of the things I learned >> and one of the things I learned interestingly I I think it's interestingly I I think it's interestingly I I think it's >> I don't know what we learn and what we >> I don't know what we learn and what we >> I don't know what we learn and what we have inate and what we find and so on have inate and what we find and so on have inate and what we find and so on but I remember at the times but I remember at the times but I remember at the times um when I was a a technology columnist um when I was a a technology columnist um when I was a a technology columnist I would be on deadlines sometimes and I would be on deadlines sometimes and I would be on deadlines sometimes and I'd have to like run home or I'd have to I'd have to like run home or I'd have to I'd have to like run home or I'd have to run into the office and I started run into the office and I started run into the office and I started writing columns on my phone on the writing columns on my phone on the writing columns on my phone on the subway or something like that and then I subway or something like that and then I subway or something like that and then I would finish them and and you just kind would finish them and and you just kind would finish them and and you just kind of I just learned to just it I could do of I just learned to just it I could do of I just learned to just it I could do I could write anywhere. Uh you know it I could write anywhere. Uh you know it I could write anywhere. Uh you know it just doesn't matter. I'm just kind of just doesn't matter. I'm just kind of just doesn't matter. I'm just kind of zoned in and pick it up on something zoned in and pick it up on something zoned in and pick it up on something else. And um and I just kind of parlayed else. And um and I just kind of parlayed else. And um and I just kind of parlayed that into all the different kinds of that into all the different kinds of that into all the different kinds of writing I do. um on all the different writing I do. um on all the different writing I do. um on all the different projects. projects. projects. >> You didn't start out with the idea of >> You didn't start out with the idea of >> You didn't start out with the idea of becoming a writer, did you? I mean, your becoming a writer, did you? I mean, your becoming a writer, did you? I mean, your origin story into the New York Times is origin story into the New York Times is origin story into the New York Times is super interesting. super interesting. super interesting. >> I think I'm probably one of the least >> I think I'm probably one of the least >> I think I'm probably one of the least likely people uh to have ended up as a likely people uh to have ended up as a likely people uh to have ended up as a columnist at the New York Times when I columnist at the New York Times when I columnist at the New York Times when I was there. I um like there was a world I was there. I um like there was a world I was there. I um like there was a world I was like I I was going to end up in jail was like I I was going to end up in jail was like I I was going to end up in jail quite honestly. I mean, it's literally quite honestly. I mean, it's literally quite honestly. I mean, it's literally like I I grew up in England. my parents like I I grew up in England. my parents like I I grew up in England. my parents got divorced and I moved to Florida and got divorced and I moved to Florida and got divorced and I moved to Florida and um immediately got in with like a lot of um immediately got in with like a lot of um immediately got in with like a lot of bad kids and my dad was off doing his bad kids and my dad was off doing his bad kids and my dad was off doing his own thing and and uh and it just was own thing and and uh and it just was own thing and and uh and it just was there was a world I was going in a there was a world I was going in a there was a world I was going in a completely different direction and um completely different direction and um completely different direction and um and I had a moment where I I ran away and I had a moment where I I ran away and I had a moment where I I ran away from home. I was a teenager and I was from home. I was a teenager and I was from home. I was a teenager and I was working at Jack's Burgers in the mall in working at Jack's Burgers in the mall in working at Jack's Burgers in the mall in Florida and um I feel like this was Florida and um I feel like this was Florida and um I feel like this was literally the defining moment of my life literally the defining moment of my life literally the defining moment of my life quite honestly was I walked outside of quite honestly was I walked outside of quite honestly was I walked outside of Jack's Burgers. I was taking the trash Jack's Burgers. I was taking the trash Jack's Burgers. I was taking the trash out and there was a homeless guy going out and there was a homeless guy going out and there was a homeless guy going through the trash and waiting for the through the trash and waiting for the through the trash and waiting for the next trash bag to and I literally was next trash bag to and I literally was next trash bag to and I literally was like, "Wow, that could be me if I don't like, "Wow, that could be me if I don't like, "Wow, that could be me if I don't pull my [ __ ] together." pull my [ __ ] together." pull my [ __ ] together." >> And you were all of 17 or something like >> And you were all of 17 or something like >> And you were all of 17 or something like that. that. that. >> 16 years old, 16, 17 years old. And I >> 16 years old, 16, 17 years old. And I >> 16 years old, 16, 17 years old. And I walked back inside and I was like, "You walked back inside and I was like, "You walked back inside and I was like, "You know what? I'm done. I'm going a know what? I'm done. I'm going a know what? I'm done. I'm going a different direction." And that was it. different direction." And that was it. different direction." And that was it. And I like stopped talking to all the And I like stopped talking to all the And I like stopped talking to all the kids, most of who are in jail or dead kids, most of who are in jail or dead kids, most of who are in jail or dead now, um that I uh knew in Florida. And I now, um that I uh knew in Florida. And I now, um that I uh knew in Florida. And I was like, I got to figure it out. And my was like, I got to figure it out. And my was like, I got to figure it out. And my GPA was a 1.9 GPA was a 1.9 GPA was a 1.9 >> in high school. You have to have a 2.0 >> in high school. You have to have a 2.0 >> in high school. You have to have a 2.0 to graduate. to graduate. to graduate. >> And I was like, how do I get I I >> And I was like, how do I get I I >> And I was like, how do I get I I literally was like, I've got four months literally was like, I've got four months literally was like, I've got four months to to get from a a a to to get from a a a to to get from a a a 1.9 to a 2.0. I got to a 2.1. So, you 1.9 to a 2.0. I got to a 2.1. So, you 1.9 to a 2.0. I got to a 2.1. So, you know, I graduated. know, I graduated. know, I graduated. >> I mean, what was going on at home? What >> I mean, what was going on at home? What >> I mean, what was going on at home? What kind of chaos was happening that you kind of chaos was happening that you kind of chaos was happening that you were, you know, having such a difficult were, you know, having such a difficult were, you know, having such a difficult time. time. time. >> It was just total chaos. I I, you know, >> It was just total chaos. I I, you know, >> It was just total chaos. I I, you know, parents were divorced. They got married parents were divorced. They got married parents were divorced. They got married too young. My dad was off dating and, too young. My dad was off dating and, too young. My dad was off dating and, you know, didn't want to deal with me you know, didn't want to deal with me you know, didn't want to deal with me and my sisters and and um and we uh we and my sisters and and um and we uh we and my sisters and and um and we uh we were a lot. I was a lot. I was getting were a lot. I was a lot. I was getting were a lot. I was a lot. I was getting in trouble all the time. I got arrested in trouble all the time. I got arrested in trouble all the time. I got arrested like nine times. It was like it was, like nine times. It was like it was, like nine times. It was like it was, >> you know, not for like anything crazy >> you know, not for like anything crazy >> you know, not for like anything crazy like stealing and drinking and fighting like stealing and drinking and fighting like stealing and drinking and fighting and, you know, complete nonsense. But and, you know, complete nonsense. But and, you know, complete nonsense. But still like still like still like >> was drugs and alcohol part of that or >> was drugs and alcohol part of that or >> was drugs and alcohol part of that or just truency and just just truency and just just truency and just >> I was never croc like >> I was never croc like >> I was never croc like >> I was lucky that I never got into drugs >> I was lucky that I never got into drugs >> I was lucky that I never got into drugs and I never have and just I just saw and I never have and just I just saw and I never have and just I just saw >> um what they could do and uh but I drank >> um what they could do and uh but I drank >> um what they could do and uh but I drank a little bit you know it wasn't a little bit you know it wasn't a little bit you know it wasn't >> right >> right >> right >> um it wasn't it was more just >> um it wasn't it was more just >> um it wasn't it was more just I just probably was looking for I just probably was looking for I just probably was looking for attention or direction or something and attention or direction or something and attention or direction or something and um and you know there was a culture um and you know there was a culture um and you know there was a culture shock of moving from England to Florida shock of moving from England to Florida shock of moving from England to Florida and then you had all these I remember and then you had all these I remember and then you had all these I remember the all these kids um that I became the all these kids um that I became the all these kids um that I became friends with and they were similar and friends with and they were similar and friends with and they were similar and like their they lived in New York, their like their they lived in New York, their like their they lived in New York, their parents got divorced or whatever and parents got divorced or whatever and parents got divorced or whatever and they or they got in trouble in New York they or they got in trouble in New York they or they got in trouble in New York and their parents were like we're moving and their parents were like we're moving and their parents were like we're moving to Florida and so you get like this to Florida and so you get like this to Florida and so you get like this pirate ship that forms and and I got on pirate ship that forms and and I got on pirate ship that forms and and I got on the pirate ship. Um and uh the pirate ship. Um and uh the pirate ship. Um and uh >> but you have this moment of reckoning. I >> but you have this moment of reckoning. I >> but you have this moment of reckoning. I have this moment of reckoning uh which have this moment of reckoning uh which have this moment of reckoning uh which 30 years later is still oh whatever 30 years later is still oh whatever 30 years later is still oh whatever however many years it is is still however many years it is is still however many years it is is still literally fresh in my mind like it literally fresh in my mind like it literally fresh in my mind like it happened yesterday and I was like I've happened yesterday and I was like I've happened yesterday and I was like I've got to I've got to figure this out got to I've got to figure this out got to I've got to figure this out otherwise I'm I'm screwed. And I mean otherwise I'm I'm screwed. And I mean otherwise I'm I'm screwed. And I mean there are kids that are men now but um there are kids that are men now but um there are kids that are men now but um who I um was very close with. I think who I um was very close with. I think who I um was very close with. I think like eight of them are dead. One of like eight of them are dead. One of like eight of them are dead. One of them's on death row for murder. Um, uh, them's on death row for murder. Um, uh, them's on death row for murder. Um, uh, a bunch of them, you know, just one got a bunch of them, you know, just one got a bunch of them, you know, just one got one was arrested for, uh, bank robbery one was arrested for, uh, bank robbery one was arrested for, uh, bank robbery with his mom. with his mom. with his mom. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Like these were the people I was friends >> Like these were the people I was friends >> Like these were the people I was friends with. It's a crazy sliding door story. I with. It's a crazy sliding door story. I with. It's a crazy sliding door story. I mean, because your success is so insane mean, because your success is so insane mean, because your success is so insane and, you know, in comparison to where and, you know, in comparison to where and, you know, in comparison to where you could have been. I mean that really you could have been. I mean that really you could have been. I mean that really is, you know, this this sort of inciting is, you know, this this sort of inciting is, you know, this this sort of inciting incident, like a real transformation as incident, like a real transformation as incident, like a real transformation as a result of just you coming to it a result of just you coming to it a result of just you coming to it yourself, like not because you got yourself, like not because you got yourself, like not because you got locked up. It wasn't anything all that locked up. It wasn't anything all that locked up. It wasn't anything all that dramatic, right? It was just like a dramatic, right? It was just like a dramatic, right? It was just like a mindset switch. Well, what I think mindset switch. Well, what I think mindset switch. Well, what I think what's fascinating about it is two what's fascinating about it is two what's fascinating about it is two things is one is I think we all have an things is one is I think we all have an things is one is I think we all have an imposttor syndrome and I've and I've imposttor syndrome and I've and I've imposttor syndrome and I've and I've always been of the mentality of um you always been of the mentality of um you always been of the mentality of um you you know the people who do have that are you know the people who do have that are you know the people who do have that are the ones that work harder and that the ones that work harder and that the ones that work harder and that appreciate it more and so on. The ones appreciate it more and so on. The ones appreciate it more and so on. The ones that feel like oh I deserve to be here that feel like oh I deserve to be here that feel like oh I deserve to be here they often don't work harder they don't they often don't work harder they don't they often don't work harder they don't push they just are like this is this is push they just are like this is this is push they just are like this is this is where I'm meant to be. So I've always where I'm meant to be. So I've always where I'm meant to be. So I've always every time I've ended up in all these every time I've ended up in all these every time I've ended up in all these different roles as a director on a different roles as a director on a different roles as a director on a documentary for HBO, writing a movie for documentary for HBO, writing a movie for documentary for HBO, writing a movie for Martin Scorsesei, as a columnist for the Martin Scorsesei, as a columnist for the Martin Scorsesei, as a columnist for the New York Times, writing stories that are New York Times, writing stories that are New York Times, writing stories that are breaking, you know, changing laws or breaking, you know, changing laws or breaking, you know, changing laws or leading congressional hearings, things leading congressional hearings, things leading congressional hearings, things like that. Every time I'm like, whoa, like that. Every time I'm like, whoa, like that. Every time I'm like, whoa, like how did I end up here? And and and like how did I end up here? And and and like how did I end up here? And and and it's I the mentality I always had was it's I the mentality I always had was it's I the mentality I always had was someone's going to tap me on the someone's going to tap me on the someone's going to tap me on the shoulder and be like, time to go and so shoulder and be like, time to go and so shoulder and be like, time to go and so I've got to do all this stuff that I get I've got to do all this stuff that I get I've got to do all this stuff that I get I want to do until that happens. And I want to do until that happens. And I want to do until that happens. And it's always been this kind of driving it's always been this kind of driving it's always been this kind of driving force. But I also the other thing is force. But I also the other thing is force. But I also the other thing is like when I think about that homeless like when I think about that homeless like when I think about that homeless guy like that homeless guy is probably guy like that homeless guy is probably guy like that homeless guy is probably dead. Had no idea dead. Had no idea dead. Had no idea that he impacted someone else's life the that he impacted someone else's life the that he impacted someone else's life the way he did. way he did. way he did. >> Um and it always makes me think that >> Um and it always makes me think that >> Um and it always makes me think that every single solitary thing we do, we every single solitary thing we do, we every single solitary thing we do, we just don't realize, but it's it's all just don't realize, but it's it's all just don't realize, but it's it's all filtering out. It filtering out. It filtering out. It >> has meaning. >> has meaning. >> has meaning. >> Yeah. It has meaning. It has purpose. >> Yeah. It has meaning. It has purpose. >> Yeah. It has meaning. It has purpose. And you know whether it's up to us or And you know whether it's up to us or And you know whether it's up to us or somebody else um it does. somebody else um it does. somebody else um it does. >> So you get this 2.0. >> So you get this 2.0. >> So you get this 2.0. >> I get 2.1 >> I get 2.1 >> I get 2.1 >> 2.1. What do you do with it? >> 2.1. What do you do with it? >> 2.1. What do you do with it? >> So I got into the only school I could >> So I got into the only school I could >> So I got into the only school I could get into was an art school. It was a get into was an art school. It was a get into was an art school. It was a school of visual arts in Savannah, school of visual arts in Savannah, school of visual arts in Savannah, Georgia. They had a campus. And um I Georgia. They had a campus. And um I Georgia. They had a campus. And um I didn't I mean I literally couldn't write didn't I mean I literally couldn't write didn't I mean I literally couldn't write very well. I was because I hadn't really very well. I was because I hadn't really very well. I was because I hadn't really studied in school. Um, and I um, so I studied in school. Um, and I um, so I studied in school. Um, and I um, so I made a comic book uh, of my life story made a comic book uh, of my life story made a comic book uh, of my life story and that was my college application and and that was my college application and and that was my college application and they felt it was creative enough. Uh, they felt it was creative enough. Uh, they felt it was creative enough. Uh, and that was something I was I was and that was something I was I was and that was something I was I was always very creative. Um, I was lucky to always very creative. Um, I was lucky to always very creative. Um, I was lucky to have that have that have that >> and so it got me into art school. Um and >> and so it got me into art school. Um and >> and so it got me into art school. Um and um eventually I was spent a year in um eventually I was spent a year in um eventually I was spent a year in Georgia and then I transferred to the Georgia and then I transferred to the Georgia and then I transferred to the New York campus and um uh and I kept the New York campus and um uh and I kept the New York campus and um uh and I kept the ADHD clicked in so I kept switching ADHD clicked in so I kept switching ADHD clicked in so I kept switching majors and so I was like I wanted to be majors and so I was like I wanted to be majors and so I was like I wanted to be a fine artist and learn how to paint a fine artist and learn how to paint a fine artist and learn how to paint photorealistically and that took like photorealistically and that took like photorealistically and that took like six months and I was like oh am I just six months and I was like oh am I just six months and I was like oh am I just going to do this for the rest of my life going to do this for the rest of my life going to do this for the rest of my life and then I found graphic design and I and then I found graphic design and I and then I found graphic design and I was like oh my god this is amazing and was like oh my god this is amazing and was like oh my god this is amazing and then then then >> and then I started um I started reading >> and then I started um I started reading >> and then I started um I started reading a lot like I fell in love with books and a lot like I fell in love with books and a lot like I fell in love with books and my mom always read. I always remember my mom always read. I always remember my mom always read. I always remember when I was a kid, she was always if she when I was a kid, she was always if she when I was a kid, she was always if she was like blow-drying her hair, she'd was like blow-drying her hair, she'd was like blow-drying her hair, she'd have a book on her lap. And and I just have a book on her lap. And and I just have a book on her lap. And and I just started I was a voracious reader, but I started I was a voracious reader, but I started I was a voracious reader, but I still never wanted to write. I ended up still never wanted to write. I ended up still never wanted to write. I ended up as an art director. Um I designed the as an art director. Um I designed the as an art director. Um I designed the very first Britney Spears doll. Like I very first Britney Spears doll. Like I very first Britney Spears doll. Like I just bounced around to all these just bounced around to all these just bounced around to all these different things and eventually uh different things and eventually uh different things and eventually uh became an art director at the New York became an art director at the New York became an art director at the New York Press and then the New York Times. And Press and then the New York Times. And Press and then the New York Times. And the goal that I had, I'd read all these the goal that I had, I'd read all these the goal that I had, I'd read all these war photography books and these war war photography books and these war war photography books and these war books and I was like, I'm going to be a books and I was like, I'm going to be a books and I was like, I'm going to be a war photographer. That's it. So that was war photographer. That's it. So that was war photographer. That's it. So that was my goal to get to the New York Times. So my goal to get to the New York Times. So my goal to get to the New York Times. So I I um get to the New York Times and I I um get to the New York Times and I I um get to the New York Times and there's two things that happened. The there's two things that happened. The there's two things that happened. The first thing is I end up in the business first thing is I end up in the business first thing is I end up in the business section as the art director, but because section as the art director, but because section as the art director, but because I knew tech so well and I'd always I knew tech so well and I'd always I knew tech so well and I'd always understood tech, it was just this thing understood tech, it was just this thing understood tech, it was just this thing that I could understand. Um I was always that I could understand. Um I was always that I could understand. Um I was always suggesting story ideas and like arguing suggesting story ideas and like arguing suggesting story ideas and like arguing with David Pogue that his his thesis was with David Pogue that his his thesis was with David Pogue that his his thesis was wrong or whatever. And so I and I also wrong or whatever. And so I and I also wrong or whatever. And so I and I also became good friends with a lot of the became good friends with a lot of the became good friends with a lot of the editors there um because I would help editors there um because I would help editors there um because I would help them fix their iPhones and their iPads them fix their iPhones and their iPads them fix their iPhones and their iPads and stuff because they didn't know how and stuff because they didn't know how and stuff because they didn't know how to. And um at the same time to. And um at the same time to. And um at the same time um I um I'm at the times and um my goal um I um I'm at the times and um my goal um I um I'm at the times and um my goal is like I have this portfolio and I want is like I have this portfolio and I want is like I have this portfolio and I want to get it to the photo editor, this to get it to the photo editor, this to get it to the photo editor, this woman Michelle McN, and then I'm going woman Michelle McN, and then I'm going woman Michelle McN, and then I'm going to go off and pursue my dream of being a to go off and pursue my dream of being a to go off and pursue my dream of being a war photographer. I was interning for war photographer. I was interning for war photographer. I was interning for the printer for James Noctaway. Do you the printer for James Noctaway. Do you the printer for James Noctaway. Do you know who James Noctaway is? know who James Noctaway is? know who James Noctaway is? >> He's the most unbelievable war >> He's the most unbelievable war >> He's the most unbelievable war photographer of all time. Um uh his photographer of all time. Um uh his photographer of all time. Um uh his photos are just breathtaking. And um he photos are just breathtaking. And um he photos are just breathtaking. And um he had all these printers and I interned had all these printers and I interned had all these printers and I interned for one of them. Uh and I, you know, for one of them. Uh and I, you know, for one of them. Uh and I, you know, this was it. This was the goal. So, one this was it. This was the goal. So, one this was it. This was the goal. So, one day I finally get Michelle McN to go out day I finally get Michelle McN to go out day I finally get Michelle McN to go out for lunch with me and I sit there and um for lunch with me and I sit there and um for lunch with me and I sit there and um I give her my portfolio and she opens it I give her my portfolio and she opens it I give her my portfolio and she opens it up and it was this big orange book and up and it was this big orange book and up and it was this big orange book and she flips through, she doesn't say a she flips through, she doesn't say a she flips through, she doesn't say a word and I'm watching and she closes the word and I'm watching and she closes the word and I'm watching and she closes the book and she goes, "You're a good book and she goes, "You're a good book and she goes, "You're a good photographer." And she's like, "You photographer." And she's like, "You photographer." And she's like, "You know, you'd probably be a good war know, you'd probably be a good war know, you'd probably be a good war photographer." She goes, "But I'm not photographer." She goes, "But I'm not photographer." She goes, "But I'm not hiring you to be a war photographer." hiring you to be a war photographer." hiring you to be a war photographer." And I was like, "Why not?" And she goes, And I was like, "Why not?" And she goes, And I was like, "Why not?" And she goes, "Cuz you're not [ __ ] up enough." And I "Cuz you're not [ __ ] up enough." And I "Cuz you're not [ __ ] up enough." And I was like, "What do you And she goes, was like, "What do you And she goes, was like, "What do you And she goes, "All of these guys and these women that "All of these guys and these women that "All of these guys and these women that that do this," she's like, "They're that do this," she's like, "They're that do this," she's like, "They're adrenaline junkies. Most of them are adrenaline junkies. Most of them are adrenaline junkies. Most of them are alcoholics or drug addicts. They or they alcoholics or drug addicts. They or they alcoholics or drug addicts. They or they or they need the adrenaline. They can't or they need the adrenaline. They can't or they need the adrenaline. They can't live in normal society." And she's like, live in normal society." And she's like, live in normal society." And she's like, you know, they live on they some of them you know, they live on they some of them you know, they live on they some of them have beautiful houses and they sleep on have beautiful houses and they sleep on have beautiful houses and they sleep on their floor. You know, it's like because their floor. You know, it's like because their floor. You know, it's like because that's where they're comfortable. that's where they're comfortable. that's where they're comfortable. >> And after that, I was like, "Okay, well, >> And after that, I was like, "Okay, well, >> And after that, I was like, "Okay, well, what's next?" And that was when I became what's next?" And that was when I became what's next?" And that was when I became a writer. What's interesting about that a writer. What's interesting about that a writer. What's interesting about that is you could have then lobbyed her by, is you could have then lobbyed her by, is you could have then lobbyed her by, you know, laying making your case for you know, laying making your case for you know, laying making your case for how chaotic your upbringing was and how how chaotic your upbringing was and how how chaotic your upbringing was and how [ __ ] up you truly are, you know, and [ __ ] up you truly are, you know, and [ __ ] up you truly are, you know, and maybe you would. Yeah. You're like, you maybe you would. Yeah. You're like, you maybe you would. Yeah. You're like, you don't know. I got ar, you know, I had a don't know. I got ar, you know, I had a don't know. I got ar, you know, I had a one point whatever and I, you know, got one point whatever and I, you know, got one point whatever and I, you know, got arrested nine times as a kid. I'm plenty arrested nine times as a kid. I'm plenty arrested nine times as a kid. I'm plenty [ __ ] up. [ __ ] up. [ __ ] up. >> Yeah. I I just I think that I um I'm the >> Yeah. I I just I think that I um I'm the >> Yeah. I I just I think that I um I'm the kind of person who um I go off my kind of person who um I go off my kind of person who um I go off my intuition and my intuition told me intuition and my intuition told me intuition and my intuition told me >> maybe she's right. >> maybe she's right. >> maybe she's right. >> Maybe she's right. Yeah. >> Maybe she's right. Yeah. >> Maybe she's right. Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> and then you kind of exploit this whit >> and then you kind of exploit this whit >> and then you kind of exploit this whit space because this is what is this the space because this is what is this the space because this is what is this the early 2000s when the the online aspect early 2000s when the the online aspect early 2000s when the the online aspect of journalism is brand new. of journalism is brand new. of journalism is brand new. >> Yeah. So, it's early 2000s and I um we >> Yeah. So, it's early 2000s and I um we >> Yeah. So, it's early 2000s and I um we had the New York Times, we had a had the New York Times, we had a had the New York Times, we had a research lab um that was up on the 27th research lab um that was up on the 27th research lab um that was up on the 27th floor, I believe, and the goal of it was floor, I believe, and the goal of it was floor, I believe, and the goal of it was like five, six people. And the goal was like five, six people. And the goal was like five, six people. And the goal was to build prototypes for what the future to build prototypes for what the future to build prototypes for what the future of journalism might look like to then of journalism might look like to then of journalism might look like to then inform the newsroom and and so on. And inform the newsroom and and so on. And inform the newsroom and and so on. And so, it was 2005 or 2006 and um no, so, it was 2005 or 2006 and um no, so, it was 2005 or 2006 and um no, sorry, it was a little it was a little sorry, it was a little it was a little sorry, it was a little it was a little late. It was around 2009 late. It was around 2009 late. It was around 2009 and the um we had an idea that there was and the um we had an idea that there was and the um we had an idea that there was going to be something like the iPad going to be something like the iPad going to be something like the iPad coming out. So we built like we took a coming out. So we built like we took a coming out. So we built like we took a screen apart and made it look like a screen apart and made it look like a screen apart and made it look like a touch screen that you could interact touch screen that you could interact touch screen that you could interact with the news on and so on and so forth. with the news on and so on and so forth. with the news on and so on and so forth. >> And um I started doing a lot of public >> And um I started doing a lot of public >> And um I started doing a lot of public speaking about the future of media and speaking about the future of media and speaking about the future of media and things. And um again with imposter things. And um again with imposter things. And um again with imposter syndrome being like why' they invite me? syndrome being like why' they invite me? syndrome being like why' they invite me? Uh, and um I remember I got a job offer Uh, and um I remember I got a job offer Uh, and um I remember I got a job offer that that that to go work at Google in the Google News to go work at Google in the Google News to go work at Google in the Google News Group and I went out for um I went out Group and I went out for um I went out Group and I went out for um I went out for uh lunch with the editor of the for uh lunch with the editor of the for uh lunch with the editor of the business section at the times who I've business section at the times who I've business section at the times who I've become close with and I told him, "Oh, become close with and I told him, "Oh, become close with and I told him, "Oh, I'm going to leave." And you know, and I'm going to leave." And you know, and I'm going to leave." And you know, and he said, "You know, it's a shame we he said, "You know, it's a shame we he said, "You know, it's a shame we can't keep people like you." Um, and can't keep people like you." Um, and can't keep people like you." Um, and he's like, you know, all of the people he's like, you know, all of the people he's like, you know, all of the people at the paper, he's like, they're all at the paper, he's like, they're all at the paper, he's like, they're all brilliant and they're geniuses, but none brilliant and they're geniuses, but none brilliant and they're geniuses, but none of them are interested in tech. all they of them are interested in tech. all they of them are interested in tech. all they want to do is write for the print paper. want to do is write for the print paper. want to do is write for the print paper. And um and I said, "What are you guys And um and I said, "What are you guys And um and I said, "What are you guys doing with that that tech blog, the bits doing with that that tech blog, the bits doing with that that tech blog, the bits blog, by the way?" And he said, "Well, blog, by the way?" And he said, "Well, blog, by the way?" And he said, "Well, no one wants to write for it. We get one no one wants to write for it. We get one no one wants to write for it. We get one post a month." And he and I said, I post a month." And he and I said, I post a month." And he and I said, I don't even know why I said it. It was don't even know why I said it. It was don't even know why I said it. It was literally like a puppeteer came and made literally like a puppeteer came and made literally like a puppeteer came and made my mouth work. And I was like, "I would my mouth work. And I was like, "I would my mouth work. And I was like, "I would do it." And he said, "Um he said, do it." And he said, "Um he said, do it." And he said, "Um he said, "Really? Would you like would you really "Really? Would you like would you really "Really? Would you like would you really be interested in doing it?" And I was be interested in doing it?" And I was be interested in doing it?" And I was like, "Sure." And he goes, "Well, why like, "Sure." And he goes, "Well, why like, "Sure." And he goes, "Well, why don't you send me a proposal of what you don't you send me a proposal of what you don't you send me a proposal of what you would do?" So I sent it to him thinking would do?" So I sent it to him thinking would do?" So I sent it to him thinking it was just going to go to him. He sent it was just going to go to him. He sent it was just going to go to him. He sent it to the entire tech department and I it to the entire tech department and I it to the entire tech department and I kind of pissed them off because I'd said kind of pissed them off because I'd said kind of pissed them off because I'd said how bad their coverage was on the blog. how bad their coverage was on the blog. how bad their coverage was on the blog. And the deal they said, "Let's um let's And the deal they said, "Let's um let's And the deal they said, "Let's um let's try it for a month." And um and that's try it for a month." And um and that's try it for a month." And um and that's that's how it all started. I was 33 that's how it all started. I was 33 that's how it all started. I was 33 years old when the first time I'd years old when the first time I'd years old when the first time I'd written a professional word and it was written a professional word and it was written a professional word and it was at the New York Times. at the New York Times. at the New York Times. >> It's so unusual. Like what an unlikely >> It's so unusual. Like what an unlikely >> It's so unusual. Like what an unlikely story for the New York Times to to story for the New York Times to to story for the New York Times to to basically greenlight this guy who basically greenlight this guy who basically greenlight this guy who actually was not a writer to be a writer actually was not a writer to be a writer actually was not a writer to be a writer for the most prestigious publication in for the most prestigious publication in for the most prestigious publication in the world simply because nobody else the world simply because nobody else the world simply because nobody else wanted to do it and it was sort of wanted to do it and it was sort of wanted to do it and it was sort of treated like this bastard stepchild treated like this bastard stepchild treated like this bastard stepchild which is all the more insane when you which is all the more insane when you which is all the more insane when you reflect on how tech obsessed we are like reflect on how tech obsessed we are like reflect on how tech obsessed we are like people just can't get enough of tech people just can't get enough of tech people just can't get enough of tech journalism. I think it was that, you journalism. I think it was that, you journalism. I think it was that, you know, I remember I remember this really know, I remember I remember this really know, I remember I remember this really funny moment when I when I first became funny moment when I when I first became funny moment when I when I first became a reporter and um you go to this at the a reporter and um you go to this at the a reporter and um you go to this at the times you go to this um it's like an times you go to this um it's like an times you go to this um it's like an onboarding even if you've been if you've onboarding even if you've been if you've onboarding even if you've been if you've been an employee in this department and been an employee in this department and been an employee in this department and you go to this one you still go through you go to this one you still go through you go to this one you still go through it but when you first start so I was now it but when you first start so I was now it but when you first start so I was now starting officially as a as a a reporter starting officially as a as a a reporter starting officially as a as a a reporter and um I uh you go and you go to the one and um I uh you go and you go to the one and um I uh you go and you go to the one someone on the mast head's house for someone on the mast head's house for someone on the mast head's house for like a dinner and uh and you meet all like a dinner and uh and you meet all like a dinner and uh and you meet all the people that have been there their the people that have been there their the people that have been there their entire careers and lives and someone and entire careers and lives and someone and entire careers and lives and someone and and you get to ask them questions, but and you get to ask them questions, but and you get to ask them questions, but everyone goes around the room and they everyone goes around the room and they everyone goes around the room and they kind of introduce themselves and one of kind of introduce themselves and one of kind of introduce themselves and one of them and and it's you know it's I'm Bob them and and it's you know it's I'm Bob them and and it's you know it's I'm Bob so and so and I graduated Magna Kumlad so and so and I graduated Magna Kumlad so and so and I graduated Magna Kumlad from Harvard and it got to me. It was from Harvard and it got to me. It was from Harvard and it got to me. It was like what do I say? I got kicked out of like what do I say? I got kicked out of like what do I say? I got kicked out of art school like art school like art school like >> and it's it's I think what it was >> and it's it's I think what it was >> and it's it's I think what it was there was no scenario there was no scenario there was no scenario 5 years in the future or two years in 5 years in the future or two years in 5 years in the future or two years in the past that they would have ever hired the past that they would have ever hired the past that they would have ever hired me but they were in a situation where me but they were in a situation where me but they were in a situation where they you they couldn't hire people that they you they couldn't hire people that they you they couldn't hire people that wanted to you know those people were wanted to you know those people were wanted to you know those people were going and working on starting their own going and working on starting their own going and working on starting their own blogs and the other the other people blogs and the other the other people blogs and the other the other people were I only want to be on the page front were I only want to be on the page front were I only want to be on the page front page of the New York Times I don't care page of the New York Times I don't care page of the New York Times I don't care about the internet and so I just found about the internet and so I just found about the internet and so I just found this slither of a doorway that I could this slither of a doorway that I could this slither of a doorway that I could squeeze through by accident and then it squeeze through by accident and then it squeeze through by accident and then it turned out I I was good at it. I knew turned out I I was good at it. I knew turned out I I was good at it. I knew how to do it for some reason and and how to do it for some reason and and how to do it for some reason and and that was it. So when people come to you that was it. So when people come to you that was it. So when people come to you or young people come to you and and ask or young people come to you and and ask or young people come to you and and ask for career advice or how do I get into for career advice or how do I get into for career advice or how do I get into this like how do you think about you this like how do you think about you this like how do you think about you know how you are able to you know get know how you are able to you know get know how you are able to you know get those third doors open and and uh you those third doors open and and uh you those third doors open and and uh you know create opportunities for yourself know create opportunities for yourself know create opportunities for yourself that's translatable for the younger that's translatable for the younger that's translatable for the younger generation who's thinking about you know generation who's thinking about you know generation who's thinking about you know a career path similar to yours. a career path similar to yours. a career path similar to yours. >> Well I think I think the f there's two >> Well I think I think the f there's two >> Well I think I think the f there's two things. One is I would say um you have things. One is I would say um you have things. One is I would say um you have to um you have to be somewhat fearless to um you have to be somewhat fearless to um you have to be somewhat fearless and willing to make mistakes. Like I and willing to make mistakes. Like I and willing to make mistakes. Like I don't I truly don't I truly don't I truly do not I this is what like honestly my do not I this is what like honestly my do not I this is what like honestly my superpower. I do not give a [ __ ] what superpower. I do not give a [ __ ] what superpower. I do not give a [ __ ] what people think of me. Like I care. I want people think of me. Like I care. I want people think of me. Like I care. I want I'm a nice person. I want them to know I'm a nice person. I want them to know I'm a nice person. I want them to know that I'm a good person. But like if they that I'm a good person. But like if they that I'm a good person. But like if they don't like my writing, I don't care. If don't like my writing, I don't care. If don't like my writing, I don't care. If they don't like that story, I don't they don't like that story, I don't they don't like that story, I don't care. like I'm just my care. like I'm just my care. like I'm just my >> How do you square that with the >> How do you square that with the >> How do you square that with the imposttor syndrome? imposttor syndrome? imposttor syndrome? >> The imposttor syndrome is I'm not >> The imposttor syndrome is I'm not >> The imposttor syndrome is I'm not supposed to be here. They I don't care supposed to be here. They I don't care supposed to be here. They I don't care is is is a different part of it. Like um is is is a different part of it. Like um is is is a different part of it. Like um the imposter syndrome is someone's going the imposter syndrome is someone's going the imposter syndrome is someone's going to tap me on the shoulder and say it's to tap me on the shoulder and say it's to tap me on the shoulder and say it's time for you to leave. You're in the time for you to leave. You're in the time for you to leave. You're in the wrong building. wrong building. wrong building. >> Um and the the I don't care is >> Um and the the I don't care is >> Um and the the I don't care is I there'll be another column I there'll be another column I there'll be another column >> find another building or >> find another building or >> find another building or >> Yeah. Or it's or it's more of like um >> Yeah. Or it's or it's more of like um >> Yeah. Or it's or it's more of like um you know I watch people who want to be you know I watch people who want to be you know I watch people who want to be writers and they have one idea and writers and they have one idea and writers and they have one idea and that's it and it's and they think it's that's it and it's and they think it's that's it and it's and they think it's like that's the idea. That is never like that's the idea. That is never like that's the idea. That is never going to happen. You know like you have going to happen. You know like you have going to happen. You know like you have to everyone I know who's a successful to everyone I know who's a successful to everyone I know who's a successful writer in Hollywood has 50 things writer in Hollywood has 50 things writer in Hollywood has 50 things they're working on at once. You know 50 they're working on at once. You know 50 they're working on at once. You know 50 different ideas and one of them if different ideas and one of them if different ideas and one of them if they're very very very lucky will get they're very very very lucky will get they're very very very lucky will get made. and and you h and I think that and made. and and you h and I think that and made. and and you h and I think that and you also as a journalist you you can't you also as a journalist you you can't you also as a journalist you you can't obsess about or even an author that this obsess about or even an author that this obsess about or even an author that this is it's it's perfect. There's no such is it's it's perfect. There's no such is it's it's perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There's 90% done and thing as perfect. There's 90% done and thing as perfect. There's 90% done and you can spend the rest of your life on you can spend the rest of your life on you can spend the rest of your life on the next 10%. the next 10%. the next 10%. >> And I and I and for me I'm okay with >> And I and I and for me I'm okay with >> And I and I and for me I'm okay with 90%. Like okay, let's get it out and 90%. Like okay, let's get it out and 90%. Like okay, let's get it out and we'll do the next one. We'll do the next we'll do the next one. We'll do the next we'll do the next one. We'll do the next one. We'll do the next one. and my goal one. We'll do the next one. and my goal one. We'll do the next one. and my goal is to just get better and learn more and is to just get better and learn more and is to just get better and learn more and and put these things out out there in and put these things out out there in and put these things out out there in the world. And I think that that's the world. And I think that that's the world. And I think that that's they're two very different things. Does they're two very different things. Does they're two very different things. Does that make sense? that make sense? that make sense? >> Yeah, I understand. So, not being so >> Yeah, I understand. So, not being so >> Yeah, I understand. So, not being so precious about your work, holding it precious about your work, holding it precious about your work, holding it loosely, having a healthy relationship loosely, having a healthy relationship loosely, having a healthy relationship with expectations around like what's with expectations around like what's with expectations around like what's going to happen with it or how people going to happen with it or how people going to happen with it or how people receive it. And I suspect that that receive it. And I suspect that that receive it. And I suspect that that indoctrination had a lot to do with the indoctrination had a lot to do with the indoctrination had a lot to do with the fact that in your early columnist days fact that in your early columnist days fact that in your early columnist days like you just had to be turn you were like you just had to be turn you were like you just had to be turn you were turnurning out like so much so many turnurning out like so much so many turnurning out like so much so many articles you just had to do it and move articles you just had to do it and move articles you just had to do it and move on and like not get too caught up in you on and like not get too caught up in you on and like not get too caught up in you know making it absolutely you know know making it absolutely you know know making it absolutely you know turning these things into jewel boxes. turning these things into jewel boxes. turning these things into jewel boxes. >> Yeah, there that's exactly right. I >> Yeah, there that's exactly right. I >> Yeah, there that's exactly right. I remember there was an editor who told me remember there was an editor who told me remember there was an editor who told me at one point when I became a columnist at one point when I became a columnist at one point when I became a columnist um he said uh there is a piece of um he said uh there is a piece of um he said uh there is a piece of there's a column of newsprint every there's a column of newsprint every there's a column of newsprint every Thursday that is going to have your name Thursday that is going to have your name Thursday that is going to have your name on it and the 1200 words you write you on it and the 1200 words you write you on it and the 1200 words you write you write and if you don't file it you won't write and if you don't file it you won't write and if you don't file it you won't have a job and that was it have a job and that was it have a job and that was it >> and so I had to literally ensure and it >> and so I had to literally ensure and it >> and so I had to literally ensure and it wasn't just that it was writing stories wasn't just that it was writing stories wasn't just that it was writing stories and so on and so forth and so I did the and so on and so forth and so I did the and so on and so forth and so I did the math at some point. It was well over a math at some point. It was well over a math at some point. It was well over a million and a half words I'd written. million and a half words I'd written. million and a half words I'd written. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Um and >> Um and >> Um and >> I barely remember any of it. Like it's, >> I barely remember any of it. Like it's, >> I barely remember any of it. Like it's, you know, I remember a few stories here you know, I remember a few stories here you know, I remember a few stories here and there or some themes and things like and there or some themes and things like and there or some themes and things like that, but they're just you just got to that, but they're just you just got to that, but they're just you just got to write it and you publish it and you move write it and you publish it and you move write it and you publish it and you move on to the next one and and sometimes you on to the next one and and sometimes you on to the next one and and sometimes you sometimes you get beat up for it and sometimes you get beat up for it and sometimes you get beat up for it and sometimes people love it and you just sometimes people love it and you just sometimes people love it and you just and that's just it. And and I think that and that's just it. And and I think that and that's just it. And and I think that the the advice I always give to people the the advice I always give to people the the advice I always give to people is two things. Is one is is two things. Is one is is two things. Is one is you're you're going to get a better you're you're going to get a better you're you're going to get a better education in writing from reading than education in writing from reading than education in writing from reading than you are from someone explaining the you are from someone explaining the you are from someone explaining the structure of, you know, Hemingway's structure of, you know, Hemingway's structure of, you know, Hemingway's first opening page and his repetition of first opening page and his repetition of first opening page and his repetition of words and all these things like that. words and all these things like that. words and all these things like that. You're going to get a better education You're going to get a better education You're going to get a better education from reading and understanding and and from reading and understanding and and from reading and understanding and and and that's literally how I've learned and that's literally how I've learned and that's literally how I've learned how to write in every single form. And how to write in every single form. And how to write in every single form. And you know, people like Corin McCarthy you know, people like Corin McCarthy you know, people like Corin McCarthy said the same thing like the writing is said the same thing like the writing is said the same thing like the writing is is reading and iterating on what people is reading and iterating on what people is reading and iterating on what people have done before you. And so my books have done before you. And so my books have done before you. And so my books are they read like novels even though are they read like novels even though are they read like novels even though they're narrative non-fiction cuz I love they're narrative non-fiction cuz I love they're narrative non-fiction cuz I love novels. That's all I read is novels. And novels. That's all I read is novels. And novels. That's all I read is novels. And so I want to tell a story. And then they so I want to tell a story. And then they so I want to tell a story. And then they also kind of read a little like movies also kind of read a little like movies also kind of read a little like movies because I love reading screenplays and because I love reading screenplays and because I love reading screenplays and writing screenplays and and so but writing screenplays and and so but writing screenplays and and so but that's all I didn't go to school for that's all I didn't go to school for that's all I didn't go to school for writing, you know. I like literally got writing, you know. I like literally got writing, you know. I like literally got kicked out of art school like you know kicked out of art school like you know kicked out of art school like you know it's it's it's >> but you have a visual mind like when >> but you have a visual mind like when >> but you have a visual mind like when you're I mean when you're reading your you're I mean when you're reading your you're I mean when you're reading your books it's like oh you just see the books it's like oh you just see the books it's like oh you just see the movie which made me think like how come movie which made me think like how come movie which made me think like how come these books haven't been turned into these books haven't been turned into these books haven't been turned into movies yet? They must be they must have movies yet? They must be they must have movies yet? They must be they must have gone through lots gone through lots gone through lots >> 20 you know cycles of development at >> 20 you know cycles of development at >> 20 you know cycles of development at this point but how come they're not up this point but how come they're not up this point but how come they're not up on the screen yet? on the screen yet? on the screen yet? >> Well it's just I you know it's a longer >> Well it's just I you know it's a longer >> Well it's just I you know it's a longer conversation about Hollywood and how conversation about Hollywood and how conversation about Hollywood and how broken that industry is. Um but broken that industry is. Um but broken that industry is. Um but um but yeah, I I I turn I I actually um but yeah, I I I turn I I actually um but yeah, I I I turn I I actually just learned I have a two two boys that just learned I have a two two boys that just learned I have a two two boys that are nine and 10 and one of them has uh are nine and 10 and one of them has uh are nine and 10 and one of them has uh really severe dyslexia and um my wife um really severe dyslexia and um my wife um really severe dyslexia and um my wife um was was helping him with some of the was was helping him with some of the was was helping him with some of the phonetics of reading. I can't do phonetics of reading. I can't do phonetics of reading. I can't do phonetics. I did I learned that because phonetics. I did I learned that because phonetics. I did I learned that because >> I couldn't when she was saying things I >> I couldn't when she was saying things I >> I couldn't when she was saying things I was like that's how that's how you do was like that's how that's how you do was like that's how that's how you do it. And what I've realized is I also it. And what I've realized is I also it. And what I've realized is I also have some form of dyslexia. have some form of dyslexia. have some form of dyslexia. >> And um and what I I I don't imagine >> And um and what I I I don't imagine >> And um and what I I I don't imagine words in my head. I can't picture a words in my head. I can't picture a words in my head. I can't picture a word, but I can picture an image and word, but I can picture an image and word, but I can picture an image and then I can describe the image. then I can describe the image. then I can describe the image. >> So that's just the way my brain works. >> So that's just the way my brain works. >> So that's just the way my brain works. And so that's how I write. So I imagine And so that's how I write. So I imagine And so that's how I write. So I imagine the movie and then I tell you what's the movie and then I tell you what's the movie and then I tell you what's happening in the movie or I imagine the happening in the movie or I imagine the happening in the movie or I imagine the scene. It's all visual and then it's put scene. It's all visual and then it's put scene. It's all visual and then it's put into language. As a writer, your your into language. As a writer, your your into language. As a writer, your your talent is really storytelling. like this talent is really storytelling. like this talent is really storytelling. like this reverence for how to tell a story well reverence for how to tell a story well reverence for how to tell a story well which is reflected in the books that you which is reflected in the books that you which is reflected in the books that you write but also uh is mirrored in these write but also uh is mirrored in these write but also uh is mirrored in these tech moguls that you've done these deep tech moguls that you've done these deep tech moguls that you've done these deep dive profiles on and their relationship dive profiles on and their relationship dive profiles on and their relationship with storytelling. So, I want to spend a with storytelling. So, I want to spend a with storytelling. So, I want to spend a few minutes talking about how you think few minutes talking about how you think few minutes talking about how you think about storytelling and uh its importance about storytelling and uh its importance about storytelling and uh its importance and how we should all sort of be and how we should all sort of be and how we should all sort of be thinking a little bit more in depth thinking a little bit more in depth thinking a little bit more in depth about storytelling and how it operates about storytelling and how it operates about storytelling and how it operates in our own lives. Well, I think in our own lives. Well, I think in our own lives. Well, I think everything we do is a story, right? I'm everything we do is a story, right? I'm everything we do is a story, right? I'm telling you your story. You're telling telling you your story. You're telling telling you your story. You're telling me a story based on what you're wearing, me a story based on what you're wearing, me a story based on what you're wearing, uh what I drive, where I live, the way uh what I drive, where I live, the way uh what I drive, where I live, the way the way I talk to people. My everything the way I talk to people. My everything the way I talk to people. My everything we do is a story. And um and there are we do is a story. And um and there are we do is a story. And um and there are different ways to approach it. In different ways to approach it. In different ways to approach it. In different mediums, you tell the story different mediums, you tell the story different mediums, you tell the story differently. Like one of the things I differently. Like one of the things I differently. Like one of the things I find fascinating about non-fiction find fascinating about non-fiction find fascinating about non-fiction versus fiction, even if it's a short versus fiction, even if it's a short versus fiction, even if it's a short story or news article, is like in a news story or news article, is like in a news story or news article, is like in a news article, you have what's called the article, you have what's called the article, you have what's called the lead, which is your way into the story. lead, which is your way into the story. lead, which is your way into the story. Then you have the nut graph, which is Then you have the nut graph, which is Then you have the nut graph, which is telling you, that's the second telling you, that's the second telling you, that's the second paragraph, which tells you what the paragraph, which tells you what the paragraph, which tells you what the whole story is about. And then at the whole story is about. And then at the whole story is about. And then at the end, you have what's called the kicker, end, you have what's called the kicker, end, you have what's called the kicker, which is the best part of the story, which is the best part of the story, which is the best part of the story, right? It's the part that you you leave right? It's the part that you you leave right? It's the part that you you leave with. In fiction, it's completely the with. In fiction, it's completely the with. In fiction, it's completely the other way around. You start with the other way around. You start with the other way around. You start with the best part of your story and then you best part of your story and then you best part of your story and then you kind of go through and at the very end kind of go through and at the very end kind of go through and at the very end you kind of tell us what it's about and you kind of tell us what it's about and you kind of tell us what it's about and so on. And and I think that with all so on. And and I think that with all so on. And and I think that with all different kinds of um storytelling, you different kinds of um storytelling, you different kinds of um storytelling, you have to approach it differently. One of have to approach it differently. One of have to approach it differently. One of the things that I found the most the things that I found the most the things that I found the most challenging as a writer is challenging as a writer is challenging as a writer is screenwriting. I think it's the hardest screenwriting. I think it's the hardest screenwriting. I think it's the hardest form of writing there is. There's no no form of writing there is. There's no no form of writing there is. There's no no more difficult form because you can't more difficult form because you can't more difficult form because you can't use exposition. You can't um uh every use exposition. You can't um uh every use exposition. You can't um uh every scene um has to ask a question that scene um has to ask a question that scene um has to ask a question that another scene answers then asks the another scene answers then asks the another scene answers then asks the question and so on and so forth. Every question and so on and so forth. Every question and so on and so forth. Every character is trying to get in the character is trying to get in the character is trying to get in the other's way. One character um every other's way. One character um every other's way. One character um every voice has to sound distinct and voice has to sound distinct and voice has to sound distinct and different. All there's all these rules different. All there's all these rules different. All there's all these rules and you're showing you can never tell. and you're showing you can never tell. and you're showing you can never tell. You can never tell someone's interior You can never tell someone's interior You can never tell someone's interior and what they're thinking. And so I find and what they're thinking. And so I find and what they're thinking. And so I find it all very fascinating how the it all very fascinating how the it all very fascinating how the different forms of storytelling work for different forms of storytelling work for different forms of storytelling work for our brains to be able to kind of our brains to be able to kind of our brains to be able to kind of understand it. And um and that to me is understand it. And um and that to me is understand it. And um and that to me is one of the most fun parts of moving one of the most fun parts of moving one of the most fun parts of moving between all these different projects. between all these different projects. between all these different projects. >> Yeah. In screenwriting, >> Yeah. In screenwriting, >> Yeah. In screenwriting, every line of dialogue, every setup, every line of dialogue, every setup, every line of dialogue, every setup, every kind of slug line has to uh reveal every kind of slug line has to uh reveal every kind of slug line has to uh reveal something about character and advance something about character and advance something about character and advance the story and and illustrate the themes, the story and and illustrate the themes, the story and and illustrate the themes, you know, and you have to do it with you know, and you have to do it with you know, and you have to do it with such incredible economy like it has to such incredible economy like it has to such incredible economy like it has to be distilled down to its very essence. be distilled down to its very essence. be distilled down to its very essence. >> Yeah. So, the the Godfather is is um one >> Yeah. So, the the Godfather is is um one >> Yeah. So, the the Godfather is is um one of the best examples because the theme of the best examples because the theme of the best examples because the theme is about family. Uh the characters are is about family. Uh the characters are is about family. Uh the characters are all very very different and there what's all very very different and there what's all very very different and there what's the what's so incredible about the the what's so incredible about the the what's so incredible about the Godfather and why it's cited as one of Godfather and why it's cited as one of Godfather and why it's cited as one of the best movies is you've got the the best movies is you've got the the best movies is you've got the Godfather, right? And then you've got Godfather, right? And then you've got Godfather, right? And then you've got his four kids and each kid is a his four kids and each kid is a his four kids and each kid is a different facet of the Godfather's different facet of the Godfather's different facet of the Godfather's personality which are all, you know, personality which are all, you know, personality which are all, you know, one's a goofball, the other's holding it one's a goofball, the other's holding it one's a goofball, the other's holding it together, the other thinks he's he's together, the other thinks he's he's together, the other thinks he's he's cocky, he's in charge, and and there's cocky, he's in charge, and and there's cocky, he's in charge, and and there's the love and so on and so forth. And the love and so on and so forth. And the love and so on and so forth. And each character drives the forward the each character drives the forward the each character drives the forward the story for it's so it's all those things story for it's so it's all those things story for it's so it's all those things that are happening and and if you have that are happening and and if you have that are happening and and if you have one single line of dialogue that that one single line of dialogue that that one single line of dialogue that that isn't right your entire feeling about isn't right your entire feeling about isn't right your entire feeling about these characters changes and everyone these characters changes and everyone these characters changes and everyone has to have agency and there's a there's has to have agency and there's a there's has to have agency and there's a there's obstacles. It's a really really a obstacles. It's a really really a obstacles. It's a really really a challenging form of writing and I think challenging form of writing and I think challenging form of writing and I think it's why there are so few good movies in it's why there are so few good movies in it's why there are so few good movies in Hollywood quite honestly. um fewer and Hollywood quite honestly. um fewer and Hollywood quite honestly. um fewer and fewer fewer fewer >> fewer and fewer and I also think >> fewer and fewer and I also think >> fewer and fewer and I also think >> the other thing I would say is um I >> the other thing I would say is um I >> the other thing I would say is um I don't think there are a lot of good don't think there are a lot of good don't think there are a lot of good writers out there great writers out writers out there great writers out writers out there great writers out there and that's not a diss on society there and that's not a diss on society there and that's not a diss on society or people or whatever um I just think or people or whatever um I just think or people or whatever um I just think that there are it is it is such a that there are it is it is such a that there are it is it is such a difficult thing to do really really difficult thing to do really really difficult thing to do really really really well that there are only certain really well that there are only certain really well that there are only certain brains that can do it cory for example brains that can do it cory for example brains that can do it cory for example >> you couldn't teach what that guy does >> you couldn't teach what that guy does >> you couldn't teach what that guy does not teach it. And he he didn't even not teach it. And he he didn't even not teach it. And he he didn't even >> when you do read the interviews and the >> when you do read the interviews and the >> when you do read the interviews and the few that he did like he always said like few that he did like he always said like few that he did like he always said like I don't know where it comes from. It's I don't know where it comes from. It's I don't know where it comes from. It's like like like >> and I think this is some of some of the >> and I think this is some of some of the >> and I think this is some of some of the greatest artists say this like Chris greatest artists say this like Chris greatest artists say this like Chris Martin had this great line in a Martin had this great line in a Martin had this great line in a documentary where he said this song came documentary where he said this song came documentary where he said this song came to me from wherever songs come from. And to me from wherever songs come from. And to me from wherever songs come from. And I and Carmen McCarthy was like there's I and Carmen McCarthy was like there's I and Carmen McCarthy was like there's something in my subconscious that like something in my subconscious that like something in my subconscious that like that told me to do this. And I think that told me to do this. And I think that told me to do this. And I think it's the people who are the greatest it's the people who are the greatest it's the people who are the greatest artists I think are the ones that are artists I think are the ones that are artists I think are the ones that are most in tune with that. And it doesn't most in tune with that. And it doesn't most in tune with that. And it doesn't it doesn't mean the people that aren't it doesn't mean the people that aren't it doesn't mean the people that aren't shouldn't write. They should do the shouldn't write. They should do the shouldn't write. They should do the things they want to do. But I think like things they want to do. But I think like things they want to do. But I think like the greats are the are there's so few of the greats are the are there's so few of the greats are the are there's so few of them them them >> getting out of their own way, opening >> getting out of their own way, opening >> getting out of their own way, opening this channel to the subconscious and you this channel to the subconscious and you this channel to the subconscious and you know in the in and kind of sitting in know in the in and kind of sitting in know in the in and kind of sitting in this space of allowing it for it to show this space of allowing it for it to show this space of allowing it for it to show up and flow from hand to page. up and flow from hand to page. up and flow from hand to page. >> Yeah. And and Rick Rubin talks about >> Yeah. And and Rick Rubin talks about >> Yeah. And and Rick Rubin talks about this about how this about how this about how >> about about that specifically. I think >> about about that specifically. I think >> about about that specifically. I think it's I believe that, you know, I still it's I believe that, you know, I still it's I believe that, you know, I still don't know if I believe that there's a don't know if I believe that there's a don't know if I believe that there's a point to all this or we're just some point to all this or we're just some point to all this or we're just some little accident or simulation or little accident or simulation or little accident or simulation or whatever, but I do believe that um there whatever, but I do believe that um there whatever, but I do believe that um there is something in the universe that that is something in the universe that that is something in the universe that that makes these things these stories happen makes these things these stories happen makes these things these stories happen and and and >> whether it's a collective consciousness >> whether it's a collective consciousness >> whether it's a collective consciousness and it we you know some people have a and it we you know some people have a and it we you know some people have a little a little pin prick doorway, but I little a little pin prick doorway, but I little a little pin prick doorway, but I I do truly believe that that is really I do truly believe that that is really I do truly believe that that is really where a lot of this art comes. comes where a lot of this art comes. comes where a lot of this art comes. comes from. from. from. >> Well, despite the fact that movies seem >> Well, despite the fact that movies seem >> Well, despite the fact that movies seem to be not so good these days, uh we're to be not so good these days, uh we're to be not so good these days, uh we're not going to ever uh reach a point where not going to ever uh reach a point where not going to ever uh reach a point where we lose our appetite for great we lose our appetite for great we lose our appetite for great storytelling. But it is an interesting storytelling. But it is an interesting storytelling. But it is an interesting cultural moment in that uh you know, cultural moment in that uh you know, cultural moment in that uh you know, we're kind of in this um period of time we're kind of in this um period of time we're kind of in this um period of time in which we've lost our reverence for in which we've lost our reverence for in which we've lost our reverence for the great novel. Like this is something the great novel. Like this is something the great novel. Like this is something I talked I had James Fry on here. We I talked I had James Fry on here. We I talked I had James Fry on here. We talked about this. I Bruce Wagner, do talked about this. I Bruce Wagner, do talked about this. I Bruce Wagner, do you know Bruce Wagner? I had him on. He you know Bruce Wagner? I had him on. He you know Bruce Wagner? I had him on. He writes these incredible writes these incredible writes these incredible >> transgressive novels that are really >> transgressive novels that are really >> transgressive novels that are really just fantastic. And you just like just fantastic. And you just like just fantastic. And you just like nobody's reading these books, you know? nobody's reading these books, you know? nobody's reading these books, you know? We're not in that era that, you know, We're not in that era that, you know, We're not in that era that, you know, you and I were around probably around you and I were around probably around you and I were around probably around the same age like when you know these the same age like when you know these the same age like when you know these people were like rock stars, you know, people were like rock stars, you know, people were like rock stars, you know, and everybody couldn't wait for their and everybody couldn't wait for their and everybody couldn't wait for their next book and that doesn't seem to be next book and that doesn't seem to be next book and that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. the case anymore. the case anymore. >> Well, I think there's a few things that >> Well, I think there's a few things that >> Well, I think there's a few things that have happened as far as books. there. It have happened as far as books. there. It have happened as far as books. there. It funnily enough the book industry has not funnily enough the book industry has not funnily enough the book industry has not shrunk to the degree that people believe shrunk to the degree that people believe shrunk to the degree that people believe it has. It's actually grown in some it has. It's actually grown in some it has. It's actually grown in some years. And the reason is there's a years. And the reason is there's a years. And the reason is there's a couple of reasons. One is that audio couple of reasons. One is that audio couple of reasons. One is that audio books have opened up a whole new a whole books have opened up a whole new a whole books have opened up a whole new a whole new um genre of reader. Um and then and new um genre of reader. Um and then and new um genre of reader. Um and then and most of those, you know, it's like the most of those, you know, it's like the most of those, you know, it's like the werewolves and the and the vampires and werewolves and the and the vampires and werewolves and the and the vampires and all that stuff that you get these kind all that stuff that you get these kind all that stuff that you get these kind of subcultures that have have risen up of subcultures that have have risen up of subcultures that have have risen up as a result of the ability to to write as a result of the ability to to write as a result of the ability to to write books like this. And the other thing books like this. And the other thing books like this. And the other thing that's happened is um I mean I think one that's happened is um I mean I think one that's happened is um I mean I think one of the worst things that's happened is of the worst things that's happened is of the worst things that's happened is actually book talk and and Tik Tok as a actually book talk and and Tik Tok as a actually book talk and and Tik Tok as a result of cuz I don't think that um result of cuz I don't think that um result of cuz I don't think that um they're driving a lot of the sales to they're driving a lot of the sales to they're driving a lot of the sales to some of the worst writing out there and some of the worst writing out there and some of the worst writing out there and people will call me an [ __ ] for people will call me an [ __ ] for people will call me an [ __ ] for saying this and they have before but but saying this and they have before but but saying this and they have before but but I just it it really saddens me when I just it it really saddens me when I just it it really saddens me when >> meaning like just sort of low rent genre >> meaning like just sort of low rent genre >> meaning like just sort of low rent genre fiction. I look we all love a good a fiction. I look we all love a good a fiction. I look we all love a good a good like crime novel or a romance novel good like crime novel or a romance novel good like crime novel or a romance novel or whatever but there are also things I or whatever but there are also things I or whatever but there are also things I believe with every ounce of my being believe with every ounce of my being believe with every ounce of my being that the reason that we are supposed to that the reason that we are supposed to that the reason that we are supposed to write these stories is to make people write these stories is to make people write these stories is to make people think it's a it's we are think it's a it's we are think it's a it's we are >> as a storytellers our job is to is to >> as a storytellers our job is to is to >> as a storytellers our job is to is to hold a mirror to society through a story hold a mirror to society through a story hold a mirror to society through a story you know a rand said this she's like ran you know a rand said this she's like ran you know a rand said this she's like ran she said that that to her a novel is a she said that that to her a novel is a she said that that to her a novel is a way to make society think about things. way to make society think about things. way to make society think about things. I think she pushed people to try to I think she pushed people to try to I think she pushed people to try to think in a certain way. But like to me think in a certain way. But like to me think in a certain way. But like to me that is what the the whole point of all that is what the the whole point of all that is what the the whole point of all of what we're doing is like of what we're doing is like of what we're doing is like >> sure to elucidate some truth about human >> sure to elucidate some truth about human >> sure to elucidate some truth about human nature or the world to help us make nature or the world to help us make nature or the world to help us make sense of correct why we're here and sense of correct why we're here and sense of correct why we're here and >> and it's why we consume these stories. >> and it's why we consume these stories. >> and it's why we consume these stories. It's why we want the emotion. You know, It's why we want the emotion. You know, It's why we want the emotion. You know, whenever you're pitching a story in whenever you're pitching a story in whenever you're pitching a story in Hollywood, people are always like, Hollywood, people are always like, Hollywood, people are always like, "What's the character's emotional "What's the character's emotional "What's the character's emotional drive?" And it's like and at first you drive?" And it's like and at first you drive?" And it's like and at first you hear that and you're like, "What are you hear that and you're like, "What are you hear that and you're like, "What are you talking about? It's set set in space. talking about? It's set set in space. talking about? It's set set in space. It's great." and you and then you It's great." and you and then you It's great." and you and then you realize like it could be set anywhere. realize like it could be set anywhere. realize like it could be set anywhere. It doesn't matter. It's about the It doesn't matter. It's about the It doesn't matter. It's about the characters and how we relate to the characters and how we relate to the characters and how we relate to the characters. And and I think that which characters. And and I think that which characters. And and I think that which is why there's never, you know, there's is why there's never, you know, there's is why there's never, you know, there's never a great movie about billionaires never a great movie about billionaires never a great movie about billionaires because no one can relate to being a because no one can relate to being a because no one can relate to being a billionaire. Um and so or most of us billionaire. Um and so or most of us billionaire. Um and so or most of us can. Um, and I think that what's can. Um, and I think that what's can. Um, and I think that what's both been great is there are more both been great is there are more both been great is there are more readers today um, who do consume in readers today um, who do consume in readers today um, who do consume in different forms, but at the same time, different forms, but at the same time, different forms, but at the same time, the sad part is that that the the, um, the sad part is that that the the, um, the sad part is that that the the, um, the greats are not read like they once the greats are not read like they once the greats are not read like they once were and were and were and >> and there isn't that that sort of >> and there isn't that that sort of >> and there isn't that that sort of monoculture moment where, you know, some monoculture moment where, you know, some monoculture moment where, you know, some genius just, you know, drops some work genius just, you know, drops some work genius just, you know, drops some work that lands like a a thud and rocks that lands like a a thud and rocks that lands like a a thud and rocks everybody. everybody. everybody. >> Correct. But I still think that there is >> Correct. But I still think that there is >> Correct. But I still think that there is uh something uh something uh something um perennial about writing books uh that um perennial about writing books uh that um perennial about writing books uh that has withtood has withtood has withtood the the kind of gestalt of everything the the kind of gestalt of everything the the kind of gestalt of everything that we consume was sort of uploaded in that we consume was sort of uploaded in that we consume was sort of uploaded in the last 24 hours. Like there's a the last 24 hours. Like there's a the last 24 hours. Like there's a staying power, you know, if you write a staying power, you know, if you write a staying power, you know, if you write a great book, it can make an impact in a great book, it can make an impact in a great book, it can make an impact in a way that um you know, other forms of way that um you know, other forms of way that um you know, other forms of media still can't. media still can't. media still can't. >> I I completely agree. I I just I wish >> I I completely agree. I I just I wish >> I I completely agree. I I just I wish that um uh I wish that people would um that um uh I wish that people would um that um uh I wish that people would um put down their phones a little bit more put down their phones a little bit more put down their phones a little bit more and stop scrolling, doomlessly scrolling and stop scrolling, doomlessly scrolling and stop scrolling, doomlessly scrolling and and just read a book. I mean, I and and just read a book. I mean, I and and just read a book. I mean, I every I'm I'm a voracious reader. I and every I'm I'm a voracious reader. I and every I'm I'm a voracious reader. I and at night I put my phone aside and I pull at night I put my phone aside and I pull at night I put my phone aside and I pull out my Kindle and and I, you know, try out my Kindle and and I, you know, try out my Kindle and and I, you know, try to go through a book a week at least if to go through a book a week at least if to go through a book a week at least if I can. and and uh I read a lot of older I can. and and uh I read a lot of older I can. and and uh I read a lot of older stuff, mostly 1950s, '60s, '7s, a lot of stuff, mostly 1950s, '60s, '7s, a lot of stuff, mostly 1950s, '60s, '7s, a lot of old sci-fi and uh cuz I just feel like old sci-fi and uh cuz I just feel like old sci-fi and uh cuz I just feel like it was like the height of it. Um but it was like the height of it. Um but it was like the height of it. Um but it's um I find it so much more rewarding it's um I find it so much more rewarding it's um I find it so much more rewarding than than even most TV these days. than than even most TV these days. than than even most TV these days. One of the things I hear constantly from One of the things I hear constantly from One of the things I hear constantly from people in this community is, "I have an people in this community is, "I have an people in this community is, "I have an idea, but I don't know where to start." idea, but I don't know where to start." idea, but I don't know where to start." to which I say whatever you imagine is to which I say whatever you imagine is to which I say whatever you imagine is holding you back exists only in your holding you back exists only in your holding you back exists only in your imagination. Let's say you have an idea imagination. Let's say you have an idea imagination. 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Uh, and there is a weird hope we're going to learn. It's weird hope we're going to learn. It's weird hope we're going to learn. It's like it's like this, oh, maybe I could like it's like this, oh, maybe I could like it's like this, oh, maybe I could be that person someday or what would it be that person someday or what would it be that person someday or what would it be like to be a billionaire? Like this be like to be a billionaire? Like this be like to be a billionaire? Like this lurid, you know, kind of fascination lurid, you know, kind of fascination lurid, you know, kind of fascination with how these people live their lives with how these people live their lives with how these people live their lives that that lure us into kind of a that that lure us into kind of a that that lure us into kind of a romantic relationship with them while romantic relationship with them while romantic relationship with them while also like that's the cognitive also like that's the cognitive also like that's the cognitive dissonance piece. Like we know that Sam dissonance piece. Like we know that Sam dissonance piece. Like we know that Sam Alman is most likely steering us off a Alman is most likely steering us off a Alman is most likely steering us off a cliff. Yes. cliff. Yes. cliff. Yes. >> And yet, you know, we're like, "What's >> And yet, you know, we're like, "What's >> And yet, you know, we're like, "What's Sam Alman doing? What's he up to? Is he Sam Alman doing? What's he up to? Is he Sam Alman doing? What's he up to? Is he a genius? What's happening?" like and a genius? What's happening?" like and a genius? What's happening?" like and and then we're using open AI every and then we're using open AI every and then we're using open AI every single day. It's like single day. It's like single day. It's like >> yeah, they're not they're none of >> yeah, they're not they're none of >> yeah, they're not they're none of >> it's insane. And the history of humanity >> it's insane. And the history of humanity >> it's insane. And the history of humanity is just barrel forward and break things is just barrel forward and break things is just barrel forward and break things and we'll deal with the repercussions and we'll deal with the repercussions and we'll deal with the repercussions later, but the repercussions in this later, but the repercussions in this later, but the repercussions in this context are so um exponentially beyond context are so um exponentially beyond context are so um exponentially beyond anything that our species has ever anything that our species has ever anything that our species has ever faced. And yet we're still really not faced. And yet we're still really not faced. And yet we're still really not course correcting for this. course correcting for this. course correcting for this. >> Well, I think that the I think it's the >> Well, I think that the I think it's the >> Well, I think that the I think it's the first technology in human history that first technology in human history that first technology in human history that can wipe out human history. I don't can wipe out human history. I don't can wipe out human history. I don't believe the nukes could have done that. believe the nukes could have done that. believe the nukes could have done that. uh there's a world maybe potentially but uh there's a world maybe potentially but uh there's a world maybe potentially but you know all of the studies that I've you know all of the studies that I've you know all of the studies that I've read all the research I've read state read all the research I've read state read all the research I've read state department reports so on and so forth department reports so on and so forth department reports so on and so forth you know you only need 150 people to you know you only need 150 people to you know you only need 150 people to survive for society to flourish survive for society to flourish survive for society to flourish society can come back from that and you society can come back from that and you society can come back from that and you know the predictions were always you know the predictions were always you know the predictions were always you know we still have a billion people on know we still have a billion people on know we still have a billion people on the planet maybe Antarctica looks like the planet maybe Antarctica looks like the planet maybe Antarctica looks like Los Angeles but like the the planet Los Angeles but like the the planet Los Angeles but like the the planet still survives most of that um uh and um still survives most of that um uh and um still survives most of that um uh and um and And the same with chemical weapons. and And the same with chemical weapons. and And the same with chemical weapons. Like chemical weapons, they tried it in Like chemical weapons, they tried it in Like chemical weapons, they tried it in World War II and the reason it didn't World War II and the reason it didn't World War II and the reason it didn't work out was because of the wind because work out was because of the wind because work out was because of the wind because the wind would blow the chemical weapons the wind would blow the chemical weapons the wind would blow the chemical weapons back in in the Germans face and they back in in the Germans face and they back in in the Germans face and they would and so that didn't work. AI is in would and so that didn't work. AI is in would and so that didn't work. AI is in my opinion the first technology that my opinion the first technology that my opinion the first technology that could literally wipe us off the face of could literally wipe us off the face of could literally wipe us off the face of the planet. And and I think that what the planet. And and I think that what the planet. And and I think that what we've been very lucky at until now is we've been very lucky at until now is we've been very lucky at until now is whenever something goes wrong, it is not whenever something goes wrong, it is not whenever something goes wrong, it is not catastrophic. catastrophic. catastrophic. um you know hundreds of thousands of um you know hundreds of thousands of um you know hundreds of thousands of people died in uh Hiroshima and Nagasaki people died in uh Hiroshima and Nagasaki people died in uh Hiroshima and Nagasaki and and then we were like wow nuclear and and then we were like wow nuclear and and then we were like wow nuclear bombs are really dangerous we should try bombs are really dangerous we should try bombs are really dangerous we should try to make sure that doesn't happen again to make sure that doesn't happen again to make sure that doesn't happen again and the same with other technologies and and the same with other technologies and and the same with other technologies and and and so on and so forth the question and and so on and so forth the question and and so on and so forth the question is with AI is with AI is with AI will it be too late once we realize oh will it be too late once we realize oh will it be too late once we realize oh that was a bad idea that was a bad idea that was a bad idea >> what's your uh suspicion on that >> what's your uh suspicion on that >> what's your uh suspicion on that >> my suspicion is that >> my suspicion is that >> my suspicion is that if you look at technology in terms of if you look at technology in terms of if you look at technology in terms of warfare warfare warfare um we every new technology we build is um we every new technology we build is um we every new technology we build is one that um can be used for both good one that um can be used for both good one that um can be used for both good and bad, right? And um and in the and bad, right? And um and in the and bad, right? And um and in the beginning, in the early days when we beginning, in the early days when we beginning, in the early days when we were living in caves and stuff like were living in caves and stuff like were living in caves and stuff like that, when we realized we could kill that, when we realized we could kill that, when we realized we could kill something with a rock, we could kill one something with a rock, we could kill one something with a rock, we could kill one person, maybe a few, and then you were person, maybe a few, and then you were person, maybe a few, and then you were probably going to get killed with probably going to get killed with probably going to get killed with someone else's rock. You get to this someone else's rock. You get to this someone else's rock. You get to this point where guns come along and you can point where guns come along and you can point where guns come along and you can kill more people, you know, maybe, you kill more people, you know, maybe, you kill more people, you know, maybe, you know, maybe a few with the ones that you know, maybe a few with the ones that you know, maybe a few with the ones that you stick the bullet in in the old in the stick the bullet in in the old in the stick the bullet in in the old in the like, you know, the olden days. Then you like, you know, the olden days. Then you like, you know, the olden days. Then you get to machine guns, you can now kill get to machine guns, you can now kill get to machine guns, you can now kill hundreds and so on and so forth. Each hundreds and so on and so forth. Each hundreds and so on and so forth. Each new technology allows us to kill more new technology allows us to kill more new technology allows us to kill more and more. So now we get to nukes, we're and more. So now we get to nukes, we're and more. So now we get to nukes, we're at hundreds of thousands. at hundreds of thousands. at hundreds of thousands. I believe AI is is in the billions if I believe AI is is in the billions if I believe AI is is in the billions if used correctly by someone nefarious. used correctly by someone nefarious. used correctly by someone nefarious. >> And so the question is is what is that >> And so the question is is what is that >> And so the question is is what is that number and how who is the person that number and how who is the person that number and how who is the person that ends up using it? Because what's ends up using it? Because what's ends up using it? Because what's happening with technology is it's making happening with technology is it's making happening with technology is it's making it does this what I I say people don't it does this what I I say people don't it does this what I I say people don't think small enough is the way I think think small enough is the way I think think small enough is the way I think about it less and less people can create about it less and less people can create about it less and less people can create the thing that can destroy the world and the thing that can destroy the world and the thing that can destroy the world and um and the thing that can be destroyed um and the thing that can be destroyed um and the thing that can be destroyed the world is even smaller than the thing the world is even smaller than the thing the world is even smaller than the thing from before and so from before and so from before and so >> I think that we will have an instance my >> I think that we will have an instance my >> I think that we will have an instance my prediction is prediction is prediction is um that we will have an instance where um that we will have an instance where um that we will have an instance where it is used in a catastrophic way and The it is used in a catastrophic way and The it is used in a catastrophic way and The question is does it kill a 100,000 question is does it kill a 100,000 question is does it kill a 100,000 people or does it kill 5 billion people? people or does it kill 5 billion people? people or does it kill 5 billion people? Um and after that there will be Um and after that there will be Um and after that there will be safeguards put in place likely but the safeguards put in place likely but the safeguards put in place likely but the question is is how many people die in question is is how many people die in question is is how many people die in the process and what is your sense of the process and what is your sense of the process and what is your sense of how it would kill people? Like is it is how it would kill people? Like is it is how it would kill people? Like is it is it just you know creating a a meltdown it just you know creating a a meltdown it just you know creating a a meltdown at the local nuclear facility or like at the local nuclear facility or like at the local nuclear facility or like what what is the means by which people what what is the means by which people what what is the means by which people are going to die as a result of it? are going to die as a result of it? are going to die as a result of it? Well, if you ask me to put my Well, if you ask me to put my Well, if you ask me to put my screenwriter hat on for a second, like screenwriter hat on for a second, like screenwriter hat on for a second, like yeah, there's the classic like yeah, there's the classic like yeah, there's the classic like um you know, the the power gets shut um you know, the the power gets shut um you know, the the power gets shut off. There's a State Department report off. There's a State Department report off. There's a State Department report that says in if the power gets shut off that says in if the power gets shut off that says in if the power gets shut off in America, uh 95% of society is dead in America, uh 95% of society is dead in America, uh 95% of society is dead within a year. A lot more people, you within a year. A lot more people, you within a year. A lot more people, you know, hundreds of thousands are dead in know, hundreds of thousands are dead in know, hundreds of thousands are dead in the first few weeks. Like you cut your the first few weeks. Like you cut your the first few weeks. Like you cut your finger, there's no medicine that's finger, there's no medicine that's finger, there's no medicine that's coming to you. There's the water gets coming to you. There's the water gets coming to you. There's the water gets dirty. You you die of, you know, dirty. You you die of, you know, dirty. You you die of, you know, dtheria. There's all these different dtheria. There's all these different dtheria. There's all these different things that happen. things that happen. things that happen. >> Literally just turning off the power >> Literally just turning off the power >> Literally just turning off the power grid. grid. grid. >> Yeah. The there's the just turning off >> Yeah. The there's the just turning off >> Yeah. The there's the just turning off the power grid. Yeah. Literally nothing the power grid. Yeah. Literally nothing the power grid. Yeah. Literally nothing else. Super easy. else. Super easy. else. Super easy. >> Um the uh the thing that people there's >> Um the uh the thing that people there's >> Um the uh the thing that people there's that great saying that there are nine uh that great saying that there are nine uh that great saying that there are nine uh hot meals between anarchy and um sorry hot meals between anarchy and um sorry hot meals between anarchy and um sorry between uh society and anarchy. I think between uh society and anarchy. I think between uh society and anarchy. I think we're down to about four hot meals at we're down to about four hot meals at we're down to about four hot meals at this point. Like I don't think we'd make this point. Like I don't think we'd make this point. Like I don't think we'd make it to nine. it to nine. it to nine. >> We're just on a trigger. Like we're you >> We're just on a trigger. Like we're you >> We're just on a trigger. Like we're you know after co everybody's ready to know after co everybody's ready to know after co everybody's ready to pounce. So I don't think it would take pounce. So I don't think it would take pounce. So I don't think it would take that many days. that many days. that many days. >> And I think like >> And I think like >> And I think like >> and and we've learned that like there >> and and we've learned that like there >> and and we've learned that like there will be no comedy among men like it, you will be no comedy among men like it, you will be no comedy among men like it, you know, we will just immediately pivot to know, we will just immediately pivot to know, we will just immediately pivot to antagonism antagonism antagonism >> completely 10,000%. And and we never >> completely 10,000%. And and we never >> completely 10,000%. And and we never think it all through. like I you know I think it all through. like I you know I think it all through. like I you know I I was working on a movie about about I was working on a movie about about I was working on a movie about about like an apocalyptic movie right before like an apocalyptic movie right before like an apocalyptic movie right before CO and so I was doing lots of research CO and so I was doing lots of research CO and so I was doing lots of research into all the things that could go wrong into all the things that could go wrong into all the things that could go wrong and I found out about COVID in China and I found out about COVID in China and I found out about COVID in China before it was like a mainstream thing before it was like a mainstream thing before it was like a mainstream thing and so I I was like oh my god we have to and so I I was like oh my god we have to and so I I was like oh my god we have to I I was like this is going to be really I I was like this is going to be really I I was like this is going to be really bad and I we have to get food and I bad and I we have to get food and I bad and I we have to get food and I stocked the basement and my wife and my stocked the basement and my wife and my stocked the basement and my wife and my sister everyone thought I was out of my sister everyone thought I was out of my sister everyone thought I was out of my mind mind mind >> like preNBA suspending its >> like preNBA suspending its >> like preNBA suspending its >> way way like two months before and um >> way way like two months before and um >> way way like two months before and um and um and it was just like a luck. It and um and it was just like a luck. It and um and it was just like a luck. It wasn't like I was some foresightful wasn't like I was some foresightful wasn't like I was some foresightful genius. It was just literally like, "Oh genius. It was just literally like, "Oh genius. It was just literally like, "Oh my god, that could be really bad." And my god, that could be really bad." And my god, that could be really bad." And I'd been living in my own head about all I'd been living in my own head about all I'd been living in my own head about all the things that could go wrong in the things that could go wrong in the things that could go wrong in society. But you know what I didn't do? society. But you know what I didn't do? society. But you know what I didn't do? I didn't get toilet paper. I didn't get I didn't get toilet paper. I didn't get I didn't get toilet paper. I didn't get an extra can opener. I didn't get masks an extra can opener. I didn't get masks an extra can opener. I didn't get masks cuz I didn't know. Like, so you can't cuz I didn't know. Like, so you can't cuz I didn't know. Like, so you can't even plan for the worst case scenario. even plan for the worst case scenario. even plan for the worst case scenario. Um uh or extra bottled water and Um uh or extra bottled water and Um uh or extra bottled water and whatnot. I had a lot of chips like uh whatnot. I had a lot of chips like uh whatnot. I had a lot of chips like uh and pasta. But um but I think that um and pasta. But um but I think that um and pasta. But um but I think that um the the other thing is like there are the the other thing is like there are the the other thing is like there are things that an AI could do today that things that an AI could do today that things that an AI could do today that could kill mil billions of people. Like could kill mil billions of people. Like could kill mil billions of people. Like for example, have you heard the stories for example, have you heard the stories for example, have you heard the stories about the bank robberies where they fake about the bank robberies where they fake about the bank robberies where they fake the bank the senior manager's voice and the bank the senior manager's voice and the bank the senior manager's voice and they call to do a transfer? Have you they call to do a transfer? Have you they call to do a transfer? Have you heard about these? heard about these? heard about these? >> I haven't heard about those. There were >> I haven't heard about those. There were >> I haven't heard about those. There were versions of this. There's like a one I versions of this. There's like a one I versions of this. There's like a one I think it was in somewhere in Europe and think it was in somewhere in Europe and think it was in somewhere in Europe and Italy or something and they they they um Italy or something and they they they um Italy or something and they they they um or Sweden or something like that, but or Sweden or something like that, but or Sweden or something like that, but that there was a a transfer that was that there was a a transfer that was that there was a a transfer that was done because they faked the um uh the done because they faked the um uh the done because they faked the um uh the the boss's voice using AI and told him the boss's voice using AI and told him the boss's voice using AI and told him to transfer $50 million or whatever it to transfer $50 million or whatever it to transfer $50 million or whatever it was to to another account. Um so imagine was to to another account. Um so imagine was to to another account. Um so imagine that you have an AI that says okay um we that you have an AI that says okay um we that you have an AI that says okay um we are going to poison the food supply uh are going to poison the food supply uh are going to poison the food supply uh or poison the water and they call oh can or poison the water and they call oh can or poison the water and they call oh can you ship this to or whatever or they you ship this to or whatever or they you ship this to or whatever or they change they they have them change some change they they have them change some change they they have them change some some numbers or something like that. some numbers or something like that. some numbers or something like that. There's so many scenarios that you could There's so many scenarios that you could There's so many scenarios that you could just literally using a social just literally using a social just literally using a social engineering hack from an AI do things. engineering hack from an AI do things. engineering hack from an AI do things. There's There's There's >> all the drone warfare stuff. There's a >> all the drone warfare stuff. There's a >> all the drone warfare stuff. There's a million things that could go wrong. Um, million things that could go wrong. Um, million things that could go wrong. Um, and we can't think of them all. Um, and and we can't think of them all. Um, and and we can't think of them all. Um, and and so how do we plan for them? and so how do we plan for them? and so how do we plan for them? >> Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. >> Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. >> Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. But on the subject of AI, screenwriting, But on the subject of AI, screenwriting, But on the subject of AI, screenwriting, uh, and pandemics, uh, and pandemics, uh, and pandemics, the kind of inciting incident for me the kind of inciting incident for me the kind of inciting incident for me reaching out to you, it took us a while reaching out to you, it took us a while reaching out to you, it took us a while to get our schedules in line for you to to get our schedules in line for you to to get our schedules in line for you to come here, um, was on the heels of me come here, um, was on the heels of me come here, um, was on the heels of me listening to Scott Z. Burns's uh Audible listening to Scott Z. Burns's uh Audible listening to Scott Z. Burns's uh Audible like I guess it was a podcast like a like I guess it was a podcast like a like I guess it was a podcast like a limited series sort of like an audio limited series sort of like an audio limited series sort of like an audio book or an audio documentary book or an audio documentary book or an audio documentary >> um in which >> um in which >> um in which >> Scott Zurns, legendary screenwriter uh >> Scott Zurns, legendary screenwriter uh >> Scott Zurns, legendary screenwriter uh responds to uh this this seeming desire responds to uh this this seeming desire responds to uh this this seeming desire out in in Hollywood and in the world to out in in Hollywood and in the world to out in in Hollywood and in the world to come up with a sequel to the movie come up with a sequel to the movie come up with a sequel to the movie Contagion. uh the movie Contagion sort Contagion. uh the movie Contagion sort Contagion. uh the movie Contagion sort of had this second life during COVID of had this second life during COVID of had this second life during COVID because it's so um there was so much because it's so um there was so much because it's so um there was so much fidelity in that movie to kind of what fidelity in that movie to kind of what fidelity in that movie to kind of what we all experienced that's I I remember we all experienced that's I I remember we all experienced that's I I remember watching it at the very beginning of the watching it at the very beginning of the watching it at the very beginning of the pandemic and and and I've now watched it pandemic and and and I've now watched it pandemic and and and I've now watched it again since then and I was like this again since then and I was like this again since then and I was like this movie is incredible movie is incredible movie is incredible unbelievable. Yeah. unbelievable. Yeah. unbelievable. Yeah. >> And I and and everybody wants a sequel >> And I and and everybody wants a sequel >> And I and and everybody wants a sequel to it. Scott's like yeah but I just I to it. Scott's like yeah but I just I to it. Scott's like yeah but I just I can't see any compelling reason to can't see any compelling reason to can't see any compelling reason to create a sequel to this. I can't think create a sequel to this. I can't think create a sequel to this. I can't think of a a premise that would be worthy of of a a premise that would be worthy of of a a premise that would be worthy of the time and investment that it would the time and investment that it would the time and investment that it would take to create a movie. And he goes on take to create a movie. And he goes on take to create a movie. And he goes on this journey thinking like, well, what this journey thinking like, well, what this journey thinking like, well, what if I use AI? if I use AI? if I use AI? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh to come up with a valid premise. And >> Uh to come up with a valid premise. And >> Uh to come up with a valid premise. And it's this really engrossing kind of uh it's this really engrossing kind of uh it's this really engrossing kind of uh deep dive into what AI can do in in deep dive into what AI can do in in deep dive into what AI can do in in terms of uh creative storytelling. And terms of uh creative storytelling. And terms of uh creative storytelling. And you know, Steven Soderberg is part of you know, Steven Soderberg is part of you know, Steven Soderberg is part of it. And there's one point where Scott it. And there's one point where Scott it. And there's one point where Scott reaches out to you and you're sort of reaches out to you and you're sort of reaches out to you and you're sort of the AI optimist in this equation. So the AI optimist in this equation. So the AI optimist in this equation. So explain like your role in how you use AI explain like your role in how you use AI explain like your role in how you use AI as a as a writer. as a as a writer. as a as a writer. >> Um well I will say that I'm a I consider >> Um well I will say that I'm a I consider >> Um well I will say that I'm a I consider myself a technology realist. Uh um I can myself a technology realist. Uh um I can myself a technology realist. Uh um I can see the good and the bad in all of it see the good and the bad in all of it see the good and the bad in all of it and I think every technology does have and I think every technology does have and I think every technology does have good and bad. Um uh you know I think good and bad. Um uh you know I think good and bad. Um uh you know I think that some technologies have more bad that some technologies have more bad that some technologies have more bad than good. Social media for example um than good. Social media for example um than good. Social media for example um is one of those uh cars are great but is one of those uh cars are great but is one of those uh cars are great but 1.2 million people die every year still 1.2 million people die every year still 1.2 million people die every year still still to this day driving cars and and still to this day driving cars and and still to this day driving cars and and um it and you can nuclear bombs nuclear um it and you can nuclear bombs nuclear um it and you can nuclear bombs nuclear power like this. You can just go through power like this. You can just go through power like this. You can just go through all of them and there's always a a good all of them and there's always a a good all of them and there's always a a good and a bad for it. and a bad for it. and a bad for it. >> So I do see the good and the bad. I >> So I do see the good and the bad. I >> So I do see the good and the bad. I think as far as AI goes, I, you know, think as far as AI goes, I, you know, think as far as AI goes, I, you know, uh, massive job loss, the potential end uh, massive job loss, the potential end uh, massive job loss, the potential end of humanity, of humanity, of humanity, like it's like we're actually having like it's like we're actually having like it's like we're actually having this conversation. this conversation. this conversation. >> But just put that aside for a second. >> But just put that aside for a second. >> But just put that aside for a second. However, However, However, >> um, I also >> um, I also >> um, I also think it allows us to tell better think it allows us to tell better think it allows us to tell better stories quicker. Uh, um, to think about stories quicker. Uh, um, to think about stories quicker. Uh, um, to think about new ways of telling stories. It enables new ways of telling stories. It enables new ways of telling stories. It enables people to tell more stories. Um, you people to tell more stories. Um, you people to tell more stories. Um, you know, I believe Hollywood is about to know, I believe Hollywood is about to know, I believe Hollywood is about to enter its MP3 moment. Um, and its MP3 enter its MP3 moment. Um, and its MP3 enter its MP3 moment. Um, and its MP3 moment is where, you know, anyone with a moment is where, you know, anyone with a moment is where, you know, anyone with a computer or an iPad or whatever it is computer or an iPad or whatever it is computer or an iPad or whatever it is will be able to make a movie that looks will be able to make a movie that looks will be able to make a movie that looks like Mission Impossible in their like Mission Impossible in their like Mission Impossible in their bedroom. There will be good parts of bedroom. There will be good parts of bedroom. There will be good parts of that that we can all tell those stories. that that we can all tell those stories. that that we can all tell those stories. There'll be bad parts of that. And um There'll be bad parts of that. And um There'll be bad parts of that. And um and to me, you know, I was I had a and to me, you know, I was I had a and to me, you know, I was I had a writer room at Netflix for a show I was writer room at Netflix for a show I was writer room at Netflix for a show I was doing right when Chat GP came out and doing right when Chat GP came out and doing right when Chat GP came out and and after The Room was done, I was like, and after The Room was done, I was like, and after The Room was done, I was like, "Oh, could I make my own writer's room?" "Oh, could I make my own writer's room?" "Oh, could I make my own writer's room?" And I've I've done that and I do that um And I've I've done that and I do that um And I've I've done that and I do that um for my own projects. And um and it's for my own projects. And um and it's for my own projects. And um and it's it's not like I've replaced people's it's not like I've replaced people's it's not like I've replaced people's jobs because I wouldn't be able to hire jobs because I wouldn't be able to hire jobs because I wouldn't be able to hire my own writer room for my own projects, my own writer room for my own projects, my own writer room for my own projects, but but but >> but it is uh I think there's incredible >> but it is uh I think there's incredible >> but it is uh I think there's incredible benefits to I use it. I I mean, I did a benefits to I use it. I I mean, I did a benefits to I use it. I I mean, I did a I tried to count the other day. I mean, I tried to count the other day. I mean, I tried to count the other day. I mean, I think I use it like 5,000 times a day. I think I use it like 5,000 times a day. I think I use it like 5,000 times a day. I have agents that are helping me write I have agents that are helping me write I have agents that are helping me write screenplays and and fact-checking books screenplays and and fact-checking books screenplays and and fact-checking books and all these different things at the and all these different things at the and all these different things at the same time. And um I needed a website same time. And um I needed a website same time. And um I needed a website that I I was doing some work on a script that I I was doing some work on a script that I I was doing some work on a script and and um whenever you use clawed and and and um whenever you use clawed and and and um whenever you use clawed and things like that um you uh this the things like that um you uh this the things like that um you uh this the quotes are always straight straight quotes are always straight straight quotes are always straight straight quotes and they should be curly quotes. quotes and they should be curly quotes. quotes and they should be curly quotes. I couldn't find a website that would I couldn't find a website that would I couldn't find a website that would curl them and didn't have ads. So, I curl them and didn't have ads. So, I curl them and didn't have ads. So, I just used Replet and I made my own just used Replet and I made my own just used Replet and I made my own website curlmyquot.com. It's like that I website curlmyquot.com. It's like that I website curlmyquot.com. It's like that I couldn't have done that before. And like couldn't have done that before. And like couldn't have done that before. And like and I think that it enables you to do and I think that it enables you to do and I think that it enables you to do more in less time and tell better more in less time and tell better more in less time and tell better stories. stories. stories. So, in the audio documentary, which is So, in the audio documentary, which is So, in the audio documentary, which is called uh what could possibly go wrong, called uh what could possibly go wrong, called uh what could possibly go wrong, I think is what it's called. What could I think is what it's called. What could I think is what it's called. What could go wrong, you enter the picture and you go wrong, you enter the picture and you go wrong, you enter the picture and you kind of counsel Scott on how he can kind of counsel Scott on how he can kind of counsel Scott on how he can create his own writer's room essentially create his own writer's room essentially create his own writer's room essentially by um by giving birth to a a bespoke by um by giving birth to a a bespoke by um by giving birth to a a bespoke series of of of AI bots, each of which series of of of AI bots, each of which series of of of AI bots, each of which has its own personality, its own has its own personality, its own has its own personality, its own backstory, its own degree of expertise. backstory, its own degree of expertise. backstory, its own degree of expertise. And so Scott creates this writer's room. And so Scott creates this writer's room. And so Scott creates this writer's room. There's a viologist and there's a There's a viologist and there's a There's a viologist and there's a conspiracy theorist and there's a you conspiracy theorist and there's a you conspiracy theorist and there's a you know like all and then they these people know like all and then they these people know like all and then they these people end up and and he's got his studio head end up and and he's got his studio head end up and and he's got his studio head and his agent and these people are all and his agent and these people are all and his agent and these people are all in communication with each other and in communication with each other and in communication with each other and there's like a whole ecosystem that gets there's like a whole ecosystem that gets there's like a whole ecosystem that gets created and this is something that created and this is something that created and this is something that you've done you alluded to and what you you've done you alluded to and what you you've done you alluded to and what you just shared which is absolutely just shared which is absolutely just shared which is absolutely fascinating. Like I'd never thought of fascinating. Like I'd never thought of fascinating. Like I'd never thought of AI in that context. Like I use it as a AI in that context. Like I use it as a AI in that context. Like I use it as a research tool, but as somebody who's research tool, but as somebody who's research tool, but as somebody who's writing a book right now, like I'm very writing a book right now, like I'm very writing a book right now, like I'm very reluctant to share like my actual pros reluctant to share like my actual pros reluctant to share like my actual pros with an AI. Like I don't want any kind with an AI. Like I don't want any kind with an AI. Like I don't want any kind of like I want to write the my book. I of like I want to write the my book. I of like I want to write the my book. I want it to be a human created book. I want it to be a human created book. I want it to be a human created book. I want to take advantage of AI as a want to take advantage of AI as a want to take advantage of AI as a research tool, but I don't ever want to research tool, but I don't ever want to research tool, but I don't ever want to be accused of like AI having its be accused of like AI having its be accused of like AI having its fingerprints on anything that like I've fingerprints on anything that like I've fingerprints on anything that like I've written myself. But I don't think it's written myself. But I don't think it's written myself. But I don't think it's so I'm not I I I'm not going along to to so I'm not I I I'm not going along to to so I'm not I I I'm not going along to to Claude and saying write this book for me Claude and saying write this book for me Claude and saying write this book for me because it couldn't do it. It just it because it couldn't do it. It just it because it couldn't do it. It just it couldn't. But I do go along to Claude. couldn't. But I do go along to Claude. couldn't. But I do go along to Claude. So, one example of the way I use AI is I So, one example of the way I use AI is I So, one example of the way I use AI is I just have just finished this book um for just have just finished this book um for just have just finished this book um for uh with Dwayne Johnson um on the company uh with Dwayne Johnson um on the company uh with Dwayne Johnson um on the company the mafia in Hawaii and we have 5.5 the mafia in Hawaii and we have 5.5 the mafia in Hawaii and we have 5.5 million words of research um for the million words of research um for the million words of research um for the book uh newspaper articles from the book uh newspaper articles from the book uh newspaper articles from the 1940s all the way to the 1980s that were 1940s all the way to the 1980s that were 1940s all the way to the 1980s that were all taken from slides all taken from slides all taken from slides >> like microf microfich and so on and so >> like microf microfich and so on and so >> like microf microfich and so on and so forth I have a researcher whose name is forth I have a researcher whose name is forth I have a researcher whose name is Nick we call him Nick 2.0 you know, and Nick we call him Nick 2.0 you know, and Nick we call him Nick 2.0 you know, and um we we went to the National Archives. um we we went to the National Archives. um we we went to the National Archives. We got all the court documents, boxes We got all the court documents, boxes We got all the court documents, boxes that had never been opened in 50 years, that had never been opened in 50 years, that had never been opened in 50 years, thousands and thousands and tens of thousands and thousands and tens of thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of page of court documents. Um thousands of page of court documents. Um thousands of page of court documents. Um when I wrote American Kingpin, there was when I wrote American Kingpin, there was when I wrote American Kingpin, there was no AI. So, what I would do is I I did no AI. So, what I would do is I I did no AI. So, what I would do is I I did like I had an Excel spreadsheet that like I had an Excel spreadsheet that like I had an Excel spreadsheet that like had all the dates and the times and like had all the dates and the times and like had all the dates and the times and everything, but I would have to remember everything, but I would have to remember everything, but I would have to remember what to search for. Oh, like, oh, it was what to search for. Oh, like, oh, it was what to search for. Oh, like, oh, it was he was wearing orange. So, I'd search he was wearing orange. So, I'd search he was wearing orange. So, I'd search for the color and then I would piece it for the color and then I would piece it for the color and then I would piece it all together, right? all together, right? all together, right? What I did with What I did with What I did with um with this book um and what I do with um with this book um and what I do with um with this book um and what I do with the screenplays I'm working on and so on the screenplays I'm working on and so on the screenplays I'm working on and so on that are all based on some some sort of that are all based on some some sort of that are all based on some some sort of reality is I I use I use cursor um which reality is I I use I use cursor um which reality is I I use I use cursor um which is actually most people use it for is actually most people use it for is actually most people use it for programming and I use it for both programming and I use it for both programming and I use it for both programming and writing and and I have programming and writing and and I have programming and writing and and I have my own agents that are specifically my own agents that are specifically my own agents that are specifically designed for for what I do and then I designed for for what I do and then I designed for for what I do and then I can have them take the micro fish turn can have them take the micro fish turn can have them take the micro fish turn it into text and so on and so forth and it into text and so on and so forth and it into text and so on and so forth and then I can ask a questions like, "Oh, then I can ask a questions like, "Oh, then I can ask a questions like, "Oh, what were some of the interesting things what were some of the interesting things what were some of the interesting things that happened during the trial? What that happened during the trial? What that happened during the trial? What were, you know, tell me the story about were, you know, tell me the story about were, you know, tell me the story about the murder of of Monty and Fuzzy? Tell the murder of of Monty and Fuzzy? Tell the murder of of Monty and Fuzzy? Tell me like and so it gets all those things me like and so it gets all those things me like and so it gets all those things and then I can go read those those parts and then I can go read those those parts and then I can go read those those parts of the transcript, but I don't have to of the transcript, but I don't have to of the transcript, but I don't have to go through go through go through >> 5.5 million words of research." And so >> 5.5 million words of research." And so >> 5.5 million words of research." And so the other thing I do is while I'm the other thing I do is while I'm the other thing I do is while I'm writing, so um do you know what a TK is? writing, so um do you know what a TK is? writing, so um do you know what a TK is? >> Uhuh. >> Uhuh. >> Uhuh. >> So in journalism >> So in journalism >> So in journalism >> Oh, like you'll get to it later, you >> Oh, like you'll get to it later, you >> Oh, like you'll get to it later, you move on. move on. move on. >> Yeah. So in journalism, whenever you're >> Yeah. So in journalism, whenever you're >> Yeah. So in journalism, whenever you're writing on deadline and you need to fill writing on deadline and you need to fill writing on deadline and you need to fill something in later, you write TK. So two something in later, you write TK. So two something in later, you write TK. So two letters next to each other. And it's the letters next to each other. And it's the letters next to each other. And it's the the greatest thing I've ever learned in the greatest thing I've ever learned in the greatest thing I've ever learned in my life because there's no word in the my life because there's no word in the my life because there's no word in the English language that has a T and a K English language that has a T and a K English language that has a T and a K next to it. So you can search at the end next to it. So you can search at the end next to it. So you can search at the end right before you go to press for TK. And right before you go to press for TK. And right before you go to press for TK. And if it's like a fact about like the if it's like a fact about like the if it's like a fact about like the number of floors of a building or the number of floors of a building or the number of floors of a building or the guy's, you know, job title or whatever, guy's, you know, job title or whatever, guy's, you know, job title or whatever, you fill those in. So usually I would go you fill those in. So usually I would go you fill those in. So usually I would go and I would do find and replace and do and I would do find and replace and do and I would do find and replace and do the research and so on. So what I do now the research and so on. So what I do now the research and so on. So what I do now is I as I'm writing I'll be like the is I as I'm writing I'll be like the is I as I'm writing I'll be like the person, you know, this guy's walking person, you know, this guy's walking person, you know, this guy's walking down the street on TK Street and he runs down the street on TK Street and he runs down the street on TK Street and he runs into TK guy and and then I write it and into TK guy and and then I write it and into TK guy and and then I write it and it's all in my style and then I give it it's all in my style and then I give it it's all in my style and then I give it to one of my agents and I say go go fill to one of my agents and I say go go fill to one of my agents and I say go go fill in the TK's from all the research and it in the TK's from all the research and it in the TK's from all the research and it just goes and does it and it gives me I just goes and does it and it gives me I just goes and does it and it gives me I have it give me all the things. So that have it give me all the things. So that have it give me all the things. So that to me has saved me a week's worth of to me has saved me a week's worth of to me has saved me a week's worth of work. So, I'm still doing the writing, work. So, I'm still doing the writing, work. So, I'm still doing the writing, but it's filling in the little details but it's filling in the little details but it's filling in the little details that, you know, or like I'll I'll that, you know, or like I'll I'll that, you know, or like I'll I'll remember from reading the dialogue remember from reading the dialogue remember from reading the dialogue between two characters, and I'll write between two characters, and I'll write between two characters, and I'll write it, and then I'll say go check it and it, and then I'll say go check it and it, and then I'll say go check it and make sure it's right and fix it if I make sure it's right and fix it if I make sure it's right and fix it if I made a mistake. And so, it it's doing made a mistake. And so, it it's doing made a mistake. And so, it it's doing that with um with a screenplay, you that with um with a screenplay, you that with um with a screenplay, you know, I'm writing the screenplay, but know, I'm writing the screenplay, but know, I'm writing the screenplay, but I'll I'll say like um this is one way a I'll I'll say like um this is one way a I'll I'll say like um this is one way a lot of people I know use it. like this lot of people I know use it. like this lot of people I know use it. like this paragraph is too too much exposition. paragraph is too too much exposition. paragraph is too too much exposition. Give me 10 versions of how to take the Give me 10 versions of how to take the Give me 10 versions of how to take the exposition out. And then it gives it to exposition out. And then it gives it to exposition out. And then it gives it to me and then I rewrite it again and me and then I rewrite it again and me and then I rewrite it again and that's it. And so it's it's just that's it. And so it's it's just that's it. And so it's it's just thinking it's not writing the book. It's thinking it's not writing the book. It's thinking it's not writing the book. It's not writing the screenplay. It's just not writing the screenplay. It's just not writing the screenplay. It's just helping me come up with with uh with helping me come up with with uh with helping me come up with with uh with things. And then at the end of it I will things. And then at the end of it I will things. And then at the end of it I will you know one thing I did with with the you know one thing I did with with the you know one thing I did with with the recent book I did I uploaded the whole recent book I did I uploaded the whole recent book I did I uploaded the whole book and I said are there any characters book and I said are there any characters book and I said are there any characters that need closing out? are there any that need closing out? are there any that need closing out? are there any moments that don't flow like give me a moments that don't flow like give me a moments that don't flow like give me a full critique on on it? And it gave me a full critique on on it? And it gave me a full critique on on it? And it gave me a bunch of notes and I was like great and bunch of notes and I was like great and bunch of notes and I was like great and I went back and fixed them. I went back and fixed them. I went back and fixed them. >> Can you create uh bots for the >> Can you create uh bots for the >> Can you create uh bots for the characters like the Dwayne Johnson characters like the Dwayne Johnson characters like the Dwayne Johnson character and then and then test to say character and then and then test to say character and then and then test to say is this something this person would say is this something this person would say is this something this person would say based upon all this 5,000 you know pages based upon all this 5,000 you know pages based upon all this 5,000 you know pages of research that you have fed it. of research that you have fed it. of research that you have fed it. >> Well, so there's um a couple of things I >> Well, so there's um a couple of things I >> Well, so there's um a couple of things I did uh that are like that. So, one thing did uh that are like that. So, one thing did uh that are like that. So, one thing I did was I had an agent, and they're I did was I had an agent, and they're I did was I had an agent, and they're super easy to make. Like, they're really super easy to make. Like, they're really super easy to make. Like, they're really not. You can just go to Claude and say, not. You can just go to Claude and say, not. You can just go to Claude and say, "Tell me how to make an agent that does "Tell me how to make an agent that does "Tell me how to make an agent that does X or skills or whatever." It's not that X or skills or whatever." It's not that X or skills or whatever." It's not that hard. Um, but you One thing I did that hard. Um, but you One thing I did that hard. Um, but you One thing I did that was really fascinating recently was I I was really fascinating recently was I I was really fascinating recently was I I was writing about these mobsters was writing about these mobsters was writing about these mobsters specifically, and I there was some parts specifically, and I there was some parts specifically, and I there was some parts I just didn't understand like from a I just didn't understand like from a I just didn't understand like from a mentality standpoint. So, I had um I had mentality standpoint. So, I had um I had mentality standpoint. So, I had um I had an agent that be created the characters an agent that be created the characters an agent that be created the characters and then I could interview the and then I could interview the and then I could interview the characters. They're dead. characters. They're dead. characters. They're dead. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I can't like >> So, I can't like >> So, I can't like >> That's [ __ ] wild. >> That's [ __ ] wild. >> That's [ __ ] wild. >> So, I'm like what's it like >> So, I'm like what's it like >> So, I'm like what's it like >> to bury someone alive? Like, what does >> to bury someone alive? Like, what does >> to bury someone alive? Like, what does that feel like? And like and it's it's that feel like? And like and it's it's that feel like? And like and it's it's looking at like it's got the information looking at like it's got the information looking at like it's got the information I have, the interviews I've done, and so I have, the interviews I've done, and so I have, the interviews I've done, and so on and so forth, and then it's also on and so forth, and then it's also on and so forth, and then it's also looking at research online and looking at research online and looking at research online and everything. And so I'm literally having everything. And so I'm literally having everything. And so I'm literally having a conversation with a dead person and um a conversation with a dead person and um a conversation with a dead person and um or what's it like another example was or what's it like another example was or what's it like another example was part of the book takes place and the part of the book takes place and the part of the book takes place and the movie takes place during World War II. movie takes place during World War II. movie takes place during World War II. So there's this amazing opening of the So there's this amazing opening of the So there's this amazing opening of the book where I'm not going to give it away book where I'm not going to give it away book where I'm not going to give it away but it's a very visual moment during um but it's a very visual moment during um but it's a very visual moment during um Pearl Harbor. So I wasn't in Pearl Pearl Harbor. So I wasn't in Pearl Pearl Harbor. So I wasn't in Pearl Harbor, right? I could go read a few Harbor, right? I could go read a few Harbor, right? I could go read a few books and d I said I want you to be a books and d I said I want you to be a books and d I said I want you to be a person who was who was there in Pearl person who was who was there in Pearl person who was who was there in Pearl Harbor on the day that the bombs Harbor on the day that the bombs Harbor on the day that the bombs dropped. Uh, and I'm going to ask you dropped. Uh, and I'm going to ask you dropped. Uh, and I'm going to ask you questions like what does it smell like? questions like what does it smell like? questions like what does it smell like? What does it look like? What are you What does it look like? What are you What does it look like? What are you hearing? Where are the planes coming hearing? Where are the planes coming hearing? Where are the planes coming from? All these questions and it gives from? All these questions and it gives from? All these questions and it gives it to me and then I go I go right based it to me and then I go I go right based it to me and then I go I go right based on that quote unquote interview with the on that quote unquote interview with the on that quote unquote interview with the robot. robot. robot. >> Yeah, that's wild. >> Yeah, that's wild. >> Yeah, that's wild. >> It isn't a binary thing. I mean that's >> It isn't a binary thing. I mean that's >> It isn't a binary thing. I mean that's incredibly helpful and powerful. And in incredibly helpful and powerful. And in incredibly helpful and powerful. And in the Scottsy Burns audio documentary, the Scottsy Burns audio documentary, the Scottsy Burns audio documentary, it's like the premise that AI comes up it's like the premise that AI comes up it's like the premise that AI comes up with for this Contagion 2 is a [ __ ] with for this Contagion 2 is a [ __ ] with for this Contagion 2 is a [ __ ] banger. You know, you're like, "This I banger. You know, you're like, "This I banger. You know, you're like, "This I would watch this movie." And he was not would watch this movie." And he was not would watch this movie." And he was not coming up with that on his own. coming up with that on his own. coming up with that on his own. >> But I think that the the the misnomer is >> But I think that the the the misnomer is >> But I think that the the the misnomer is that you're going to the the misnomer is that you're going to the the misnomer is that you're going to the the misnomer is this. It's that AI will be will be able this. It's that AI will be will be able this. It's that AI will be will be able to write the next Gorman McCarthy book. to write the next Gorman McCarthy book. to write the next Gorman McCarthy book. I do believe that is going to happen. I do believe that is going to happen. I do believe that is going to happen. >> You do? >> You do? >> You do? >> I do believe that. I think that we are >> I do believe that. I think that we are >> I do believe that. I think that we are terrifying, which is terrifying. terrifying, which is terrifying. terrifying, which is terrifying. >> I think we're a long ways away from it, >> I think we're a long ways away from it, >> I think we're a long ways away from it, >> but I do believe we're gonna maybe not a >> but I do believe we're gonna maybe not a >> but I do believe we're gonna maybe not a long way, maybe a couple years, I don't long way, maybe a couple years, I don't long way, maybe a couple years, I don't know. But know. But know. But >> and and I haven't wrapped my head around >> and and I haven't wrapped my head around >> and and I haven't wrapped my head around what that means. I do have some thoughts what that means. I do have some thoughts what that means. I do have some thoughts and we can talk about it, but but for and we can talk about it, but but for and we can talk about it, but but for the for the rest of the for for now, the for the rest of the for for now, the for the rest of the for for now, you still need a human to write those you still need a human to write those you still need a human to write those stories. You still need a human to stories. You still need a human to stories. You still need a human to direct the AI because these LLMs have direct the AI because these LLMs have direct the AI because these LLMs have been created on the entirety of been created on the entirety of been created on the entirety of everything written in the past, you everything written in the past, you everything written in the past, you know, x number of hundreds of years. know, x number of hundreds of years. know, x number of hundreds of years. >> And I I mean this in the kindest >> And I I mean this in the kindest >> And I I mean this in the kindest possible way possible. possible way possible. possible way possible. >> Most people can't tell a [ __ ] story >> Most people can't tell a [ __ ] story >> Most people can't tell a [ __ ] story and most people can't write and they're and most people can't write and they're and most people can't write and they're really bad at it. And so it is being really bad at it. And so it is being really bad at it. And so it is being trained on everything including that and trained on everything including that and trained on everything including that and most of it is that you know and so the most of it is that you know and so the most of it is that you know and so the it's not looking at the the best it's not looking at the the best it's not looking at the the best writers. It's looking at all of it. And writers. It's looking at all of it. And writers. It's looking at all of it. And so so so >> treating them equally >> treating them equally >> treating them equally >> and it's treating them equally. In fact, >> and it's treating them equally. In fact, >> and it's treating them equally. In fact, it's giving more weight to the worst it's giving more weight to the worst it's giving more weight to the worst ones because there's more of them. And ones because there's more of them. And ones because there's more of them. And so you still need a human to say that's so you still need a human to say that's so you still need a human to say that's a terrible idea. That's cheesy. There's a terrible idea. That's cheesy. There's a terrible idea. That's cheesy. There's a thing that a lot of the a lot of the a thing that a lot of the a lot of the a thing that a lot of the a lot of the all of the AIs do in when you ask it to all of the AIs do in when you ask it to all of the AIs do in when you ask it to write a sc a scene in a screenplay. So, write a sc a scene in a screenplay. So, write a sc a scene in a screenplay. So, one of the classic things in a one of the classic things in a one of the classic things in a screenplay is you come into the scene screenplay is you come into the scene screenplay is you come into the scene late. You leave the scene early, which late. You leave the scene early, which late. You leave the scene early, which means you never walk in the door and you means you never walk in the door and you means you never walk in the door and you never walk out the door. You come in never walk out the door. You come in never walk out the door. You come in mid-aru. It can be four lines of mid-aru. It can be four lines of mid-aru. It can be four lines of dialogue. When you ask an AI to write a dialogue. When you ask an AI to write a dialogue. When you ask an AI to write a scene, even if you tell it to come in scene, even if you tell it to come in scene, even if you tell it to come in late and leave early, it will always be late and leave early, it will always be late and leave early, it will always be like it'll just it always tells you the like it'll just it always tells you the like it'll just it always tells you the thing that you already know. thing that you already know. thing that you already know. >> It doesn't know how to do any of that >> It doesn't know how to do any of that >> It doesn't know how to do any of that stuff yet. And I think it's a a while stuff yet. And I think it's a a while stuff yet. And I think it's a a while away until it does. away until it does. away until it does. >> Yeah. I mean, I take comfort in that. >> Yeah. I mean, I take comfort in that. >> Yeah. I mean, I take comfort in that. But as we progress towards an AI that But as we progress towards an AI that But as we progress towards an AI that can write like Cormarmac McCarthy or in can write like Cormarmac McCarthy or in can write like Cormarmac McCarthy or in a indistinguishable fashion, the a indistinguishable fashion, the a indistinguishable fashion, the question is like what is the human role question is like what is the human role question is like what is the human role in the midst of this? And you know, in the midst of this? And you know, in the midst of this? And you know, there was a bunch of halaloo around uh there was a bunch of halaloo around uh there was a bunch of halaloo around uh these these clips that were shared on these these clips that were shared on these these clips that were shared on social media where it was like a fight social media where it was like a fight social media where it was like a fight scene with Brad Pitt like and it looked scene with Brad Pitt like and it looked scene with Brad Pitt like and it looked pretty realistic, right? But you still pretty realistic, right? But you still pretty realistic, right? But you still look at it and you're like, "Yeah, I look at it and you're like, "Yeah, I look at it and you're like, "Yeah, I don't give a [ __ ] because like I know don't give a [ __ ] because like I know don't give a [ __ ] because like I know this is fake and this isn't the real this is fake and this isn't the real this is fake and this isn't the real people and you know as human beings." Uh people and you know as human beings." Uh people and you know as human beings." Uh part of the attraction to that type of part of the attraction to that type of part of the attraction to that type of storytelling is the human element is storytelling is the human element is storytelling is the human element is knowing that there was um you know knowing that there was um you know knowing that there was um you know somebody behind that with a creative somebody behind that with a creative somebody behind that with a creative inspiration to create that. The question inspiration to create that. The question inspiration to create that. The question is does that matter when we we are is does that matter when we we are is does that matter when we we are looking at something that's looking at something that's looking at something that's indistinguishable or not? indistinguishable or not? indistinguishable or not? >> I don't think it does. >> I don't think it does. >> I don't think it does. >> You don't think it does? >> You don't think it does? >> You don't think it does? >> No, I don't think it does. I don't think >> No, I don't think it does. I don't think >> No, I don't think it does. I don't think >> you think that's that's sort of a >> you think that's that's sort of a >> you think that's that's sort of a romantic idea that humans are hanging on romantic idea that humans are hanging on romantic idea that humans are hanging on to because there is a there is I I do to because there is a there is I I do to because there is a there is I I do feel like right now at least and feel like right now at least and feel like right now at least and obviously we're in early days, obviously we're in early days, obviously we're in early days, >> you know, authenticity is at a premium. >> you know, authenticity is at a premium. >> you know, authenticity is at a premium. like we're we're sort of tired of the AI like we're we're sort of tired of the AI like we're we're sort of tired of the AI AI slop and when you see something that AI slop and when you see something that AI slop and when you see something that you know is real or a person that you you know is real or a person that you you know is real or a person that you can trust like that has value. can trust like that has value. can trust like that has value. >> Let me ask you a question. If I So you >> Let me ask you a question. If I So you >> Let me ask you a question. If I So you like Corin McCarthy too, right? We'll like Corin McCarthy too, right? We'll like Corin McCarthy too, right? We'll use him as an example. use him as an example. use him as an example. >> If if I came along and I said I I found >> If if I came along and I said I I found >> If if I came along and I said I I found his unwritten novel. It's amazing. You his unwritten novel. It's amazing. You his unwritten novel. It's amazing. You got to read it. And you read it and you got to read it. And you read it and you got to read it. And you read it and you were like this is amazing. And then were like this is amazing. And then were like this is amazing. And then afterwards I said you was written by an afterwards I said you was written by an afterwards I said you was written by an AI. Would you feel differently? AI. Would you feel differently? AI. Would you feel differently? >> Yeah. I don't I don't know. like you >> Yeah. I don't I don't know. like you >> Yeah. I don't I don't know. like you would still have enjoyed the novel and I would still have enjoyed the novel and I would still have enjoyed the novel and I think that think that think that >> but then I would be I would be >> but then I would be I would be >> but then I would be I would be disappointed I think upon hearing that disappointed I think upon hearing that disappointed I think upon hearing that news in the aftermath. you'd be news in the aftermath. you'd be news in the aftermath. you'd be disappointed in the aftermath. But but disappointed in the aftermath. But but disappointed in the aftermath. But but my point is is that you will appreciate my point is is that you will appreciate my point is is that you will appreciate the art the art the art >> equally the same whether it was written >> equally the same whether it was written >> equally the same whether it was written by an AI or the real Cor McCarthy. And I by an AI or the real Cor McCarthy. And I by an AI or the real Cor McCarthy. And I think that think that think that >> if a >> if a >> if a when you look at that fight scene that when you look at that fight scene that when you look at that fight scene that everyone was sharing, it still had a everyone was sharing, it still had a everyone was sharing, it still had a little bit of a little bit of AI in little bit of a little bit of AI in little bit of a little bit of AI in there. Eventually it won't and it just there. Eventually it won't and it just there. Eventually it won't and it just won't. And and I think that um once we won't. And and I think that um once we won't. And and I think that um once we get to that point, if it's a good story, get to that point, if it's a good story, get to that point, if it's a good story, people won't give a [ __ ] if it's people won't give a [ __ ] if it's people won't give a [ __ ] if it's written, if it's made by a person or written, if it's made by a person or written, if it's made by a person or not. And they won't give a [ __ ] if it's not. And they won't give a [ __ ] if it's not. And they won't give a [ __ ] if it's a real actor or if it's a fake actor. I a real actor or if it's a fake actor. I a real actor or if it's a fake actor. I think that there will be some people in think that there will be some people in think that there will be some people in society that will say like I will only society that will say like I will only society that will say like I will only cons I can imagine books in the cons I can imagine books in the cons I can imagine books in the bookstore that says written by a human. bookstore that says written by a human. bookstore that says written by a human. Like I'm not condoning any of this in Like I'm not condoning any of this in Like I'm not condoning any of this in any way, shape, or form. Like if I could any way, shape, or form. Like if I could any way, shape, or form. Like if I could build a time machine and go back to 1960 build a time machine and go back to 1960 build a time machine and go back to 1960 when people wrote on typewriters, I when people wrote on typewriters, I when people wrote on typewriters, I would be happy to. But I just see that would be happy to. But I just see that would be happy to. But I just see that this is the future. this is the future. this is the future. >> It does seem inevitable to me though >> It does seem inevitable to me though >> It does seem inevitable to me though that we're in this recursive loop of that we're in this recursive loop of that we're in this recursive loop of degradation because these AI tools are degradation because these AI tools are degradation because these AI tools are only as smart as what we feed them. And only as smart as what we feed them. And only as smart as what we feed them. And as the internet is increasingly as the internet is increasingly as the internet is increasingly populated with AI generated material, populated with AI generated material, populated with AI generated material, it's like we're making faximiles of it's like we're making faximiles of it's like we're making faximiles of faximiles of faximiles and we're not faximiles of faximiles and we're not faximiles of faximiles and we're not seing it with the best of what humanity seing it with the best of what humanity seing it with the best of what humanity has to offer and we're seing it with has to offer and we're seing it with has to offer and we're seing it with less human creativity and inspiration. less human creativity and inspiration. less human creativity and inspiration. So Carmarmac McCarthy is a one of one So Carmarmac McCarthy is a one of one So Carmarmac McCarthy is a one of one and he comes along and writes in a way and he comes along and writes in a way and he comes along and writes in a way no one else does and that elevates the no one else does and that elevates the no one else does and that elevates the human spirit. But human spirit. But human spirit. But we need those people to come and kind of we need those people to come and kind of we need those people to come and kind of refresh how we think about literature or refresh how we think about literature or refresh how we think about literature or choose your art form or whatever the choose your art form or whatever the choose your art form or whatever the specialty is. Uh and if those people specialty is. Uh and if those people specialty is. Uh and if those people don't and they're not feeding the AI, don't and they're not feeding the AI, don't and they're not feeding the AI, then we're just training it on what then we're just training it on what then we're just training it on what exists and it becomes this lowest common exists and it becomes this lowest common exists and it becomes this lowest common denominator thing. And that can't help denominator thing. And that can't help denominator thing. And that can't help but kind of degrade, you know, we just but kind of degrade, you know, we just but kind of degrade, you know, we just careen towards idiocracy. careen towards idiocracy. careen towards idiocracy. >> I think we've careened towards >> I think we've careened towards >> I think we've careened towards we're past that point. I'm not condoning we're past that point. I'm not condoning we're past that point. I'm not condoning any of this. I want to say that like to any of this. I want to say that like to any of this. I want to say that like to me um I I said this on a podcast a few me um I I said this on a podcast a few me um I I said this on a podcast a few last year and got all these people were last year and got all these people were last year and got all these people were mad at me but I'll say it again. I don't mad at me but I'll say it again. I don't mad at me but I'll say it again. I don't care. I think Colleen Hoover is a care. I think Colleen Hoover is a care. I think Colleen Hoover is a terrible writer. All right. And um and terrible writer. All right. And um and terrible writer. All right. And um and her she had at one point seven books on her she had at one point seven books on her she had at one point seven books on the New York Times bestsellers because the New York Times bestsellers because the New York Times bestsellers because of Tik Tok and so on and so forth. And I of Tik Tok and so on and so forth. And I of Tik Tok and so on and so forth. And I don't hold it against her. I'm not don't hold it against her. I'm not don't hold it against her. I'm not saying I'm Cory McCarthy in any way, saying I'm Cory McCarthy in any way, saying I'm Cory McCarthy in any way, shape or form. I'm just I'm like I can shape or form. I'm just I'm like I can shape or form. I'm just I'm like I can list a million other terrible writers. list a million other terrible writers. list a million other terrible writers. Um but what bums me out is there are so Um but what bums me out is there are so Um but what bums me out is there are so many incredible books by incredible many incredible books by incredible many incredible books by incredible writers that make you think and that's writers that make you think and that's writers that make you think and that's the stuff that's on the top of the New the stuff that's on the top of the New the stuff that's on the top of the New York Times bestseller list. But but it's York Times bestseller list. But but it's York Times bestseller list. But but it's because we go to this lowest common because we go to this lowest common because we go to this lowest common denominator now. Mhm. denominator now. Mhm. denominator now. Mhm. >> And my hope, and this is literally just >> And my hope, and this is literally just >> And my hope, and this is literally just my hope, is that my hope, is that my hope, is that what AI can do is help us help guide us what AI can do is help us help guide us what AI can do is help us help guide us to back to something that is not slop. to back to something that is not slop. to back to something that is not slop. And I think if it's going to be slop, it And I think if it's going to be slop, it And I think if it's going to be slop, it will be we don't need AI slop. We've got will be we don't need AI slop. We've got will be we don't need AI slop. We've got we've got human slop, right? It just it we've got human slop, right? It just it we've got human slop, right? It just it doesn't it's not going to change. It's doesn't it's not going to change. It's doesn't it's not going to change. It's not it's whatever. But there is a not it's whatever. But there is a not it's whatever. But there is a scenario and this is my hope is that the scenario and this is my hope is that the scenario and this is my hope is that the scenario allows us to make better scenario allows us to make better scenario allows us to make better stories that push us to think more and stories that push us to think more and stories that push us to think more and so on and so forth. The question is is so on and so forth. The question is is so on and so forth. The question is is is Anthropic going to say, "Oh, we're is Anthropic going to say, "Oh, we're is Anthropic going to say, "Oh, we're only going to use the top 1% of writers only going to use the top 1% of writers only going to use the top 1% of writers and then we're going to train the AS on and then we're going to train the AS on and then we're going to train the AS on that and then they're going to be more that and then they're going to be more that and then they're going to be more creative and so on and so forth." Or is creative and so on and so forth." Or is creative and so on and so forth." Or is it what's going to happen? I don't know. it what's going to happen? I don't know. it what's going to happen? I don't know. I do believe that no matter what that I do believe that no matter what that I do believe that no matter what that the most creative people will always the most creative people will always the most creative people will always have a job uh of telling stories whether have a job uh of telling stories whether have a job uh of telling stories whether they are coming up with an idea and they are coming up with an idea and they are coming up with an idea and telling an AI to write the book or telling an AI to write the book or telling an AI to write the book or whatever it is but I I truly do believe whatever it is but I I truly do believe whatever it is but I I truly do believe that I think it's going to be like the that I think it's going to be like the that I think it's going to be like the art world where you have 50 people that art world where you have 50 people that art world where you have 50 people that make a living and the rest of them you make a living and the rest of them you make a living and the rest of them you know paint flowers in their bedroom and know paint flowers in their bedroom and know paint flowers in their bedroom and and that's it. But like and that's it. But like and that's it. But like >> but I do believe that that's the case. >> but I do believe that that's the case. >> but I do believe that that's the case. But I think that to say that we're not But I think that to say that we're not But I think that to say that we're not going to consume AI content because it's going to consume AI content because it's going to consume AI content because it's garbage, like we consume a lot of garbage, like we consume a lot of garbage, like we consume a lot of garbage today. garbage today. garbage today. >> Story is not going away. But the thing >> Story is not going away. But the thing >> Story is not going away. But the thing that worries me the most in this shorter that worries me the most in this shorter that worries me the most in this shorter term window of rapid AI advancement is term window of rapid AI advancement is term window of rapid AI advancement is the incentive structure behind good the incentive structure behind good the incentive structure behind good storytelling because we are already in a storytelling because we are already in a storytelling because we are already in a post-truth world like and a great story post-truth world like and a great story post-truth world like and a great story using AI and visuals that are using AI and visuals that are using AI and visuals that are indistinguishable from reality has the indistinguishable from reality has the indistinguishable from reality has the capacity to manipulate the masses into capacity to manipulate the masses into capacity to manipulate the masses into you know name your idea, right? So, this you know name your idea, right? So, this you know name your idea, right? So, this is something that is easily weaponized. is something that is easily weaponized. is something that is easily weaponized. Like, we don't know what's real anymore Like, we don't know what's real anymore Like, we don't know what's real anymore and we don't know that person that we and we don't know that person that we and we don't know that person that we recognize who's saying that thing, recognize who's saying that thing, recognize who's saying that thing, whether they actually said it. And even whether they actually said it. And even whether they actually said it. And even if we're told it's fake, the research if we're told it's fake, the research if we're told it's fake, the research shows that we still kind of believe it, shows that we still kind of believe it, shows that we still kind of believe it, you know, even if we're told it's AI. you know, even if we're told it's AI. you know, even if we're told it's AI. And what is this doing to uh the human And what is this doing to uh the human And what is this doing to uh the human mind and to uh mind and to uh mind and to uh the capacity for the human animal to the capacity for the human animal to the capacity for the human animal to maintain coherent societies like I I maintain coherent societies like I I maintain coherent societies like I I just see that is like yeah this is this just see that is like yeah this is this just see that is like yeah this is this is how we're going to destroy ourselves is how we're going to destroy ourselves is how we're going to destroy ourselves I think in the short run. I think in the short run. I think in the short run. >> I completely agree and that's that's the >> I completely agree and that's that's the >> I completely agree and that's that's the biggest worry. I think that um you know biggest worry. I think that um you know biggest worry. I think that um you know in the the attack on Iran recently um in the the attack on Iran recently um in the the attack on Iran recently um Iran was using just basic AI tools like Iran was using just basic AI tools like Iran was using just basic AI tools like chat GDP to make fake videos chat GDP to make fake videos chat GDP to make fake videos uh or Gemini I don't know which ones uh or Gemini I don't know which ones uh or Gemini I don't know which ones they were using but they were they were they were using but they were they were they were using but they were they were using these basic AI tools to make fake using these basic AI tools to make fake using these basic AI tools to make fake videos of them bombing Israel destroying videos of them bombing Israel destroying videos of them bombing Israel destroying it and then they were putting that on it and then they were putting that on it and then they were putting that on television for everyone in Iran to television for everyone in Iran to television for everyone in Iran to believe that they they're winning the believe that they they're winning the believe that they they're winning the war. It's like, you know, there are news war. It's like, you know, there are news war. It's like, you know, there are news clips. Uh there was a news clip that I'm clips. Uh there was a news clip that I'm clips. Uh there was a news clip that I'm on a a text thread with a bunch of on a a text thread with a bunch of on a a text thread with a bunch of screenwriters and one of the guys was screenwriters and one of the guys was screenwriters and one of the guys was like, "Oh my god, did you see Iran um is like, "Oh my god, did you see Iran um is like, "Oh my god, did you see Iran um is uh agreeing to to to all of the US terms uh agreeing to to to all of the US terms uh agreeing to to to all of the US terms and it was a CNN clip of Jake Tapper." and it was a CNN clip of Jake Tapper." and it was a CNN clip of Jake Tapper." And the only reason I could tell it was And the only reason I could tell it was And the only reason I could tell it was AI was cuz Jake's hair looked too good. AI was cuz Jake's hair looked too good. AI was cuz Jake's hair looked too good. And but it was it was an AI clip and And but it was it was an AI clip and And but it was it was an AI clip and it's it's it's >> and enough to convince your very smart >> and enough to convince your very smart >> and enough to convince your very smart screenwriting friend. Yeah. screenwriting friend. Yeah. screenwriting friend. Yeah. >> This is just terrifying to me. It's >> This is just terrifying to me. It's >> This is just terrifying to me. It's terrifying and I think but but terrifying and I think but but terrifying and I think but but technology technology technology technologies cometh and technologies are technologies cometh and technologies are technologies cometh and technologies are then cometh to take on the other then cometh to take on the other then cometh to take on the other technology. technology. technology. >> Yeah, I know. But this is not Napster. >> Yeah, I know. But this is not Napster. >> Yeah, I know. But this is not Napster. >> It's not. But the only way that we >> It's not. But the only way that we >> It's not. But the only way that we survive this is is if the technology survive this is is if the technology survive this is is if the technology that is used to create it, there's other that is used to create it, there's other that is used to create it, there's other ones that are used to fight the the bad ones that are used to fight the the bad ones that are used to fight the the bad ones. ones. ones. >> Sure. But that is analogous to uh the >> Sure. But that is analogous to uh the >> Sure. But that is analogous to uh the detection of performance-enhancing detection of performance-enhancing detection of performance-enhancing drugs. like the advancement is always drugs. like the advancement is always drugs. like the advancement is always ahead of the detection system and the ahead of the detection system and the ahead of the detection system and the the the correction system the the correction system the the correction system >> 1000%. And I and I I I'm not saying I'm >> 1000%. And I and I I I'm not saying I'm >> 1000%. And I and I I I'm not saying I'm not being an optimist in this. I'm just not being an optimist in this. I'm just not being an optimist in this. I'm just I'm just I know that's where we'll end I'm just I know that's where we'll end I'm just I know that's where we'll end up. Again, it's the worry of how much up. Again, it's the worry of how much up. Again, it's the worry of how much bad happens before we figure out how to bad happens before we figure out how to bad happens before we figure out how to solve the solve the solve the >> And what is your sense of the timeline >> And what is your sense of the timeline >> And what is your sense of the timeline here? here? here? >> It's well the problem is is it's what's >> It's well the problem is is it's what's >> It's well the problem is is it's what's fascinating is um you know I've always fascinating is um you know I've always fascinating is um you know I've always been I you know when I was a kid I loved been I you know when I was a kid I loved been I you know when I was a kid I loved computers. so much. I used to go on a computers. so much. I used to go on a computers. so much. I used to go on a weekend to the local um corner shop in weekend to the local um corner shop in weekend to the local um corner shop in in England and get the new coding in England and get the new coding in England and get the new coding magazine and write, you know, basic code magazine and write, you know, basic code magazine and write, you know, basic code and stuff. And I've always been obsessed and stuff. And I've always been obsessed and stuff. And I've always been obsessed with tech and just there's something with tech and just there's something with tech and just there's something about it that I'm so I mean I I'm about it that I'm so I mean I I'm about it that I'm so I mean I I'm fascinated about technology from a human fascinated about technology from a human fascinated about technology from a human standpoint. It is it is the only thing I standpoint. It is it is the only thing I standpoint. It is it is the only thing I think that really truly separates us think that really truly separates us think that really truly separates us from other creatures. And um other from other creatures. And um other from other creatures. And um other creatures make art and music and so on creatures make art and music and so on creatures make art and music and so on and so forth. technology is the one and so forth. technology is the one and so forth. technology is the one thing that we do that really truly thing that we do that really truly thing that we do that really truly separates us and yet it is inevitable separates us and yet it is inevitable separates us and yet it is inevitable that it will be the downfall of us and that it will be the downfall of us and that it will be the downfall of us and we can't stop ourselves and I'm we can't stop ourselves and I'm we can't stop ourselves and I'm fascinated by that and is also the other fascinated by that and is also the other fascinated by that and is also the other thing I'm fascinated by is that we are thing I'm fascinated by is that we are thing I'm fascinated by is that we are obsessed with technology because we want obsessed with technology because we want obsessed with technology because we want to be able to do things quicker and to be able to do things quicker and to be able to do things quicker and easier and so on and so forth and easier and so on and so forth and easier and so on and so forth and advance more and yet when the technology advance more and yet when the technology advance more and yet when the technology destroys us the thing that we destroys us the thing that we destroys us the thing that we immediately go to it's back to these immediately go to it's back to these immediately go to it's back to these cavemen that will beat each other up for cavemen that will beat each other up for cavemen that will beat each other up for food and so on and so forth. So, there's food and so on and so forth. So, there's food and so on and so forth. So, there's this crazy dichotomy with the way we as this crazy dichotomy with the way we as this crazy dichotomy with the way we as humans work. And I'm fascinated by it. humans work. And I'm fascinated by it. humans work. And I'm fascinated by it. >> And you know, if if right now there was >> And you know, if if right now there was >> And you know, if if right now there was some nuclear attack and the power went some nuclear attack and the power went some nuclear attack and the power went out, like you and I would be like out in out, like you and I would be like out in out, like you and I would be like out in the street with baseball bats when we the street with baseball bats when we the street with baseball bats when we haven't had a meal in 4 days. And like haven't had a meal in 4 days. And like haven't had a meal in 4 days. And like and we literally go to that lowest and we literally go to that lowest and we literally go to that lowest common denominator as as us as as common denominator as as us as as common denominator as as us as as people. um we go to our animal instinct. people. um we go to our animal instinct. people. um we go to our animal instinct. So that I'm fascinated by as and as far So that I'm fascinated by as and as far So that I'm fascinated by as and as far as the the AI question goes. as the the AI question goes. as the the AI question goes. I do believe that there's a scenario I do believe that there's a scenario I do believe that there's a scenario where where where it could be used for good, but I also it could be used for good, but I also it could be used for good, but I also know that there's a lot of scenarios know that there's a lot of scenarios know that there's a lot of scenarios where it will be used for bad. And the where it will be used for bad. And the where it will be used for bad. And the thing that's crazy is I've been thing that's crazy is I've been thing that's crazy is I've been >> that's already true. It's already it's >> that's already true. It's already it's >> that's already true. It's already it's going to get worse. Remarkable going to get worse. Remarkable going to get worse. Remarkable advancements that are happening as like advancements that are happening as like advancements that are happening as like disease prevention and like cures and disease prevention and like cures and disease prevention and like cures and like just incredible [ __ ] like just incredible [ __ ] like just incredible [ __ ] >> Yes. And but there will be there will be >> Yes. And but there will be there will be >> Yes. And but there will be there will be bad lots of bad and and the question is bad lots of bad and and the question is bad lots of bad and and the question is and we haven't really seen the real bad and we haven't really seen the real bad and we haven't really seen the real bad yet. We just haven't it hasn't come yet. We just haven't it hasn't come yet. We just haven't it hasn't come about. Um there's little video clips and about. Um there's little video clips and about. Um there's little video clips and this that and the other. There's people this that and the other. There's people this that and the other. There's people who get scammed and and so on and so who get scammed and and so on and so who get scammed and and so on and so forth. We haven't seen like the we forth. We haven't seen like the we forth. We haven't seen like the we haven't seen the real bad. It's coming. haven't seen the real bad. It's coming. haven't seen the real bad. It's coming. It's just inevitable. And and what's It's just inevitable. And and what's It's just inevitable. And and what's been so insane to to witness for me as been so insane to to witness for me as been so insane to to witness for me as as someone who has been using technology as someone who has been using technology as someone who has been using technology their whole life, who's been writing their whole life, who's been writing their whole life, who's been writing about it for more than two decades, is about it for more than two decades, is about it for more than two decades, is how quickly it's happened. And I had how quickly it's happened. And I had how quickly it's happened. And I had this moment recently. So, one of the this moment recently. So, one of the this moment recently. So, one of the things I do when I do pitches is I things I do when I do pitches is I things I do when I do pitches is I create these AI images that I walk create these AI images that I walk create these AI images that I walk people through as I'm pitching the people through as I'm pitching the people through as I'm pitching the story. Um, I find it really like a great story. Um, I find it really like a great story. Um, I find it really like a great way to tell to tell a story. And I use way to tell to tell a story. And I use way to tell to tell a story. And I use Midjourney for it. And and I Midjourney for it. And and I Midjourney for it. And and I >> I started using it about a year ago for >> I started using it about a year ago for >> I started using it about a year ago for this. And I was went to the bottom of my this. And I was went to the bottom of my this. And I was went to the bottom of my midjourney feed and the first images midjourney feed and the first images midjourney feed and the first images were so horrifically bad compared to were so horrifically bad compared to were so horrifically bad compared to what we can do today. And that's in like what we can do today. And that's in like what we can do today. And that's in like a year. And so there's no I have never a year. And so there's no I have never a year. And so there's no I have never seen a technology grow as fast as this. seen a technology grow as fast as this. seen a technology grow as fast as this. It's astounding and it's exponential. It's astounding and it's exponential. It's astounding and it's exponential. It's going to continue to do it as it It's going to continue to do it as it It's going to continue to do it as it gets smarter. And so the question is gets smarter. And so the question is gets smarter. And so the question is >> well it becomes self-improving. >> well it becomes self-improving. >> well it becomes self-improving. >> It becomes self-improving and it it it's >> It becomes self-improving and it it it's >> It becomes self-improving and it it it's on a daily basis. you know, every single on a daily basis. you know, every single on a daily basis. you know, every single day there's this competition between day there's this competition between day there's this competition between Deep Seek and Gemini and Enthropic and Deep Seek and Gemini and Enthropic and Deep Seek and Gemini and Enthropic and and OpenAI and so on to quickly get the and OpenAI and so on to quickly get the and OpenAI and so on to quickly get the the more models and more tokens and the more models and more tokens and the more models and more tokens and more, you know, and the question is is more, you know, and the question is is more, you know, and the question is is um um um what goes wrong and when and how do we what goes wrong and when and how do we what goes wrong and when and how do we how do we prepare for and the there's no how do we prepare for and the there's no how do we prepare for and the there's no answer to those questions. answer to those questions. answer to those questions. >> Yeah. And it is an interesting quirk of >> Yeah. And it is an interesting quirk of >> Yeah. And it is an interesting quirk of the human animal that we know all of the human animal that we know all of the human animal that we know all of this and yet we're like, well, we're this and yet we're like, well, we're this and yet we're like, well, we're just barreling forward anyway because just barreling forward anyway because just barreling forward anyway because that's what we do. That's the that's what we do. That's the that's what we do. That's the fascinating part that that sort of fascinating part that that sort of fascinating part that that sort of informs the argument that like maybe informs the argument that like maybe informs the argument that like maybe human beings are just intended to be the human beings are just intended to be the human beings are just intended to be the sex organs of this new form of life. And sex organs of this new form of life. And sex organs of this new form of life. And that's our per that's ultimately like that's our per that's ultimately like that's our per that's ultimately like the endgame of our entire purpose. And the endgame of our entire purpose. And the endgame of our entire purpose. And it doesn't really matter whether we it doesn't really matter whether we it doesn't really matter whether we survive or not. I I as you know it's survive or not. I I as you know it's survive or not. I I as you know it's interesting I heard the story years and interesting I heard the story years and interesting I heard the story years and years ago from a friend who was at the years ago from a friend who was at the years ago from a friend who was at the dinner where Elon Musk and um uh Larry dinner where Elon Musk and um uh Larry dinner where Elon Musk and um uh Larry Page got into the fight about Do you Page got into the fight about Do you Page got into the fight about Do you know the story? know the story? know the story? >> Uh I don't think so. >> Uh I don't think so. >> Uh I don't think so. >> They were they were at Larry's house. >> They were they were at Larry's house. >> They were they were at Larry's house. Elon was sleeping on his couch and and Elon was sleeping on his couch and and Elon was sleeping on his couch and and they were talking about AI way before they were talking about AI way before they were talking about AI way before any of us were talking about it. And um any of us were talking about it. And um any of us were talking about it. And um and Larry Pageige uh had said allegedly and Larry Pageige uh had said allegedly and Larry Pageige uh had said allegedly to Elon that, you know, robotics are to Elon that, you know, robotics are to Elon that, you know, robotics are they're the future of this um they're the future of this um they're the future of this um of humanity. Like there the next of humanity. Like there the next of humanity. Like there the next iteration of humanity of evolution, iteration of humanity of evolution, iteration of humanity of evolution, sorry. And Elon got really mad. He was sorry. And Elon got really mad. He was sorry. And Elon got really mad. He was like, "What do you mean?" He's like, like, "What do you mean?" He's like, like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Well, that's it. It's just evolution." "Well, that's it. It's just evolution." "Well, that's it. It's just evolution." And Elon and him started arguing and And Elon and him started arguing and And Elon and him started arguing and Elon said, "You're no." Larry Pageuh Elon said, "You're no." Larry Pageuh Elon said, "You're no." Larry Pageuh accused Elon of being speciist accused Elon of being speciist accused Elon of being speciist and um and I remember at first hearing and um and I remember at first hearing and um and I remember at first hearing that and being like what a psycho Larry that and being like what a psycho Larry that and being like what a psycho Larry Page is Page is Page is >> and then you kind of see it all and >> and then you kind of see it all and >> and then you kind of see it all and you're like well maybe that's maybe you're like well maybe that's maybe you're like well maybe that's maybe that's it. I don't know. It's that's it. I don't know. It's that's it. I don't know. It's >> and here we are and Elon is creating the >> and here we are and Elon is creating the >> and here we are and Elon is creating the robots basically like they they stopped robots basically like they they stopped robots basically like they they stopped creating the Model S and the Model creating the Model S and the Model creating the Model S and the Model >> X so that they could allocate resources >> X so that they could allocate resources >> X so that they could allocate resources towards their robotics department. Yeah. towards their robotics department. Yeah. towards their robotics department. Yeah. >> And it's and it's like we know what the >> And it's and it's like we know what the >> And it's and it's like we know what the we know the future. We know what it we know the future. We know what it we know the future. We know what it looks like, but we looks like, but we looks like, but we >> we're like, "Yeah, it's going to be bad, >> we're like, "Yeah, it's going to be bad, >> we're like, "Yeah, it's going to be bad, but here we go." but here we go." but here we go." >> Yeah. And it what I find so fascinating, >> Yeah. And it what I find so fascinating, >> Yeah. And it what I find so fascinating, I'm sure you've had this conversation, I'm sure you've had this conversation, I'm sure you've had this conversation, is this that exact moment what you just is this that exact moment what you just is this that exact moment what you just did, you laughed. So when I talk to did, you laughed. So when I talk to did, you laughed. So when I talk to people, we're at a dinner dinner dinner people, we're at a dinner dinner dinner people, we're at a dinner dinner dinner party or something, me and my wife, and party or something, me and my wife, and party or something, me and my wife, and it'll come up and I'll tell them like it'll come up and I'll tell them like it'll come up and I'll tell them like all my theories of like what it is and all my theories of like what it is and all my theories of like what it is and then people like there's a silence and then people like there's a silence and then people like there's a silence and then there's a laughter. Like you know then there's a laughter. Like you know then there's a laughter. Like you know when someone almost gets hit by a car when someone almost gets hit by a car when someone almost gets hit by a car and they laugh right afterwards like and they laugh right afterwards like and they laugh right afterwards like there's a silence in this laughter and there's a silence in this laughter and there's a silence in this laughter and then people be like so what do you guys then people be like so what do you guys then people be like so what do you guys want to do for dessert and it's like want to do for dessert and it's like want to do for dessert and it's like >> there's a powerlessness >> there's a powerlessness >> there's a powerlessness >> there's a total powerlessness that we >> there's a total powerlessness that we >> there's a total powerlessness that we have and so have and so have and so it it comes out in us grinding our teeth it it comes out in us grinding our teeth it it comes out in us grinding our teeth at night or or whatever however it comes at night or or whatever however it comes at night or or whatever however it comes out but it's like out but it's like out but it's like it's it's so [ __ ] fascinating that we it's it's so [ __ ] fascinating that we it's it's so [ __ ] fascinating that we know it's gonna go wrong and Yep. And I know it's gonna go wrong and Yep. And I know it's gonna go wrong and Yep. And I know it's going to go wrong and after know it's going to go wrong and after know it's going to go wrong and after this I'm going to go home and I'm going this I'm going to go home and I'm going this I'm going to go home and I'm going to sit at my laptop and I'm going to to sit at my laptop and I'm going to to sit at my laptop and I'm going to talk to an agent and it's like talk to an agent and it's like talk to an agent and it's like >> like and that's just a weird cognitive >> like and that's just a weird cognitive >> like and that's just a weird cognitive dissonance kind of thing dissonance kind of thing dissonance kind of thing >> because what's the other version of it? >> because what's the other version of it? >> because what's the other version of it? I go live in the woods and wait for I go live in the woods and wait for I go live in the woods and wait for someone else to do it. someone else to do it. someone else to do it. >> You're you're you're balancing these >> You're you're you're balancing these >> You're you're you're balancing these polarities of like existential dread polarities of like existential dread polarities of like existential dread while also being kind of amazed that while also being kind of amazed that while also being kind of amazed that we're alive at this period of time where we're alive at this period of time where we're alive at this period of time where we're giving birth to this thing. And we're giving birth to this thing. And we're giving birth to this thing. And there is like you're watching a movie there is like you're watching a movie there is like you're watching a movie like what's going to happen next? Like like what's going to happen next? Like like what's going to happen next? Like it's exciting. But how old are your it's exciting. But how old are your it's exciting. But how old are your kids? kids? kids? >> Nine and 10. >> Nine and 10. >> Nine and 10. >> Nine and 10. Okay. So my my kids are >> Nine and 10. Okay. So my my kids are >> Nine and 10. Okay. So my my kids are older, but your kids being younger are older, but your kids being younger are older, but your kids being younger are that's even more of a of a of a a that's even more of a of a of a a that's even more of a of a of a a preient case. Like how do you think preient case. Like how do you think preient case. Like how do you think about the world that they're going to about the world that they're going to about the world that they're going to inherit? And what do you say to young inherit? And what do you say to young inherit? And what do you say to young people who are wondering like where people who are wondering like where people who are wondering like where should I place my attention? what should should I place my attention? what should should I place my attention? what should I be doing right now to prepare for this I be doing right now to prepare for this I be doing right now to prepare for this thing that uh none of us can kind of thing that uh none of us can kind of thing that uh none of us can kind of really imagine what it's going to look really imagine what it's going to look really imagine what it's going to look like and what the skill sets are that like and what the skill sets are that like and what the skill sets are that we're going to need. we're going to need. we're going to need. >> I truly don't know the answer to that. I >> I truly don't know the answer to that. I >> I truly don't know the answer to that. I truly don't. I don't know if I were me truly don't. I don't know if I were me truly don't. I don't know if I were me >> and if you don't like >> and if you don't like >> and if you don't like >> if I were me, okay, and I was I was just >> if I were me, okay, and I was I was just >> if I were me, okay, and I was I was just coming out of art school at this point. coming out of art school at this point. coming out of art school at this point. I would not I would have dropped out of I would not I would have dropped out of I would not I would have dropped out of art school probably to be quite frank. art school probably to be quite frank. art school probably to be quite frank. Um uh but Um uh but Um uh but I always believe I think I truly do I always believe I think I truly do I always believe I think I truly do believe that the the most important believe that the the most important believe that the the most important thing that humans do is tell stories and thing that humans do is tell stories and thing that humans do is tell stories and I would continue to try to figure out I would continue to try to figure out I would continue to try to figure out how to tell stories. Good stories that how to tell stories. Good stories that how to tell stories. Good stories that try to that have an impact on society try to that have an impact on society try to that have an impact on society that is positive. Quite quite frankly I that is positive. Quite quite frankly I that is positive. Quite quite frankly I know this may sound [ __ ] but it's know this may sound [ __ ] but it's know this may sound [ __ ] but it's truly what I believe. Like so to me if I truly what I believe. Like so to me if I truly what I believe. Like so to me if I were coming out today as from art school were coming out today as from art school were coming out today as from art school or trying to get a job as or whatever it or trying to get a job as or whatever it or trying to get a job as or whatever it was that I was doing or trying going to was that I was doing or trying going to was that I was doing or trying going to be a writer my number one goal would be be a writer my number one goal would be be a writer my number one goal would be how do I tell stories that try to make how do I tell stories that try to make how do I tell stories that try to make sure society doesn't end up in the worst sure society doesn't end up in the worst sure society doesn't end up in the worst catastrophic place whether that's catastrophic place whether that's catastrophic place whether that's I I wouldn't have done this but like I I wouldn't have done this but like I I wouldn't have done this but like becoming an influencer that's trying to becoming an influencer that's trying to becoming an influencer that's trying to talk about the good and the bad and the talk about the good and the bad and the talk about the good and the bad and the it's like it's it's like it's it's like it's the only thing that we can do to control the only thing that we can do to control the only thing that we can do to control it is to tell stories about what it it is to tell stories about what it it is to tell stories about what it could be could be could be >> and to make people think about it. And >> and to make people think about it. And >> and to make people think about it. And so my answer is that, you know, and it's so my answer is that, you know, and it's so my answer is that, you know, and it's why I'm still doing it now because I why I'm still doing it now because I why I'm still doing it now because I believe like I believe that, you know, believe like I believe that, you know, believe like I believe that, you know, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the mafia book that I'm writing with Dwayne, mafia book that I'm writing with Dwayne, mafia book that I'm writing with Dwayne, it's sure it's about the mafia, but it's it's sure it's about the mafia, but it's it's sure it's about the mafia, but it's about colonialism. It's about right and about colonialism. It's about right and about colonialism. It's about right and wrong and and what happens to people. wrong and and what happens to people. wrong and and what happens to people. It's like it's about much bigger things. It's like it's about much bigger things. It's like it's about much bigger things. And I think that And I think that And I think that >> we >> we >> we as a species, as a species, as a species, that's how we learn is through story. that's how we learn is through story. that's how we learn is through story. And the only way to try to save the And the only way to try to save the And the only way to try to save the species to is to tell better stories. species to is to tell better stories. species to is to tell better stories. >> I think that I that that chuckle that we >> I think that I that that chuckle that we >> I think that I that that chuckle that we have when we're kind of confronted with have when we're kind of confronted with have when we're kind of confronted with this reality this reality this reality >> is a reflection of our discomfort with >> is a reflection of our discomfort with >> is a reflection of our discomfort with uncertainty. And the truth of the matter uncertainty. And the truth of the matter uncertainty. And the truth of the matter is that the world has always been is that the world has always been is that the world has always been tremendously uncertain. And the human tremendously uncertain. And the human tremendously uncertain. And the human mind like to likes to fabricate rules mind like to likes to fabricate rules mind like to likes to fabricate rules and and create structures that that that and and create structures that that that and and create structures that that that foster the illusion of certainty and foster the illusion of certainty and foster the illusion of certainty and predictability, but nothing really is predictability, but nothing really is predictability, but nothing really is certain. It's just that with AI, uh the certain. It's just that with AI, uh the certain. It's just that with AI, uh the uncertainty factor is through the roof uncertainty factor is through the roof uncertainty factor is through the roof all of a sudden. And and we're just all of a sudden. And and we're just all of a sudden. And and we're just fundamentally wired to be uncomfortable fundamentally wired to be uncomfortable fundamentally wired to be uncomfortable with that. with that. with that. >> Yeah. Um, but in terms of like the >> Yeah. Um, but in terms of like the >> Yeah. Um, but in terms of like the anxiety levels of the adults who are anxiety levels of the adults who are anxiety levels of the adults who are trying to make sense of this, perhaps trying to make sense of this, perhaps trying to make sense of this, perhaps there's something to be said for just there's something to be said for just there's something to be said for just being in a relationship with your being in a relationship with your being in a relationship with your relationship with uncertainty, you know, relationship with uncertainty, you know, relationship with uncertainty, you know, >> and trying to trying to find some peace >> and trying to trying to find some peace >> and trying to trying to find some peace in that and understanding that, you in that and understanding that, you in that and understanding that, you know, it's been uncertain all along. know, it's been uncertain all along. know, it's been uncertain all along. >> I totally agree. I mean, it's it's why >> I totally agree. I mean, it's it's why >> I totally agree. I mean, it's it's why people are drawn to rel were drawn to people are drawn to rel were drawn to people are drawn to rel were drawn to religion because they're not as much religion because they're not as much religion because they're not as much anymore because that created boundaries anymore because that created boundaries anymore because that created boundaries around uncertainty, right? It said there around uncertainty, right? It said there around uncertainty, right? It said there are rules and there's a reason and you are rules and there's a reason and you are rules and there's a reason and you have to trust in God and Jesus and have to trust in God and Jesus and have to trust in God and Jesus and whatever the other thing that that this whatever the other thing that that this whatever the other thing that that this religion you believe in says. And and religion you believe in says. And and religion you believe in says. And and it's as a societ as societies, we've it's as a societ as societies, we've it's as a societ as societies, we've we've we've pulled away from that at a we've we've pulled away from that at a we've we've pulled away from that at a time when we probably need it more than time when we probably need it more than time when we probably need it more than ever. Um, and I think it's it's a really ever. Um, and I think it's it's a really ever. Um, and I think it's it's a really astute point to say like you have to be astute point to say like you have to be astute point to say like you have to be okay. It's like that saying in in AA okay. It's like that saying in in AA okay. It's like that saying in in AA like about being okay with not being like about being okay with not being like about being okay with not being okay. okay. okay. >> Yeah. There is a there is a somebody >> Yeah. There is a there is a somebody >> Yeah. There is a there is a somebody who's been in AA for a long time like who's been in AA for a long time like who's been in AA for a long time like it's all about powerlessness. Like we it's all about powerlessness. Like we it's all about powerlessness. Like we really don't have control over all the really don't have control over all the really don't have control over all the things that we think we do. Like we can things that we think we do. Like we can things that we think we do. Like we can control our behavior and our kind of control our behavior and our kind of control our behavior and our kind of reaction or response to things that reaction or response to things that reaction or response to things that happen. Um and given an acceptance of happen. Um and given an acceptance of happen. Um and given an acceptance of that powerlessness, how do we find that powerlessness, how do we find that powerlessness, how do we find peace, happiness, meaning etc. So I read peace, happiness, meaning etc. So I read peace, happiness, meaning etc. So I read this Nichi quote uh that was was it was this Nichi quote uh that was was it was this Nichi quote uh that was was it was actually really interesting. So here it actually really interesting. So here it actually really interesting. So here it is. So what if someday or night a demon is. So what if someday or night a demon is. So what if someday or night a demon were to steal after you into your were to steal after you into your were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you, loneliest loneliness and say to you, loneliest loneliness and say to you, "This life as you now live it and have "This life as you now live it and have "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once lived it, you will have to live once lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more." Would more and innumerable times more." Would more and innumerable times more." Would you not throw yourself down and nash you not throw yourself down and nash you not throw yourself down and nash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke your teeth and curse the demon who spoke your teeth and curse the demon who spoke this? Or have you once experienced a this? Or have you once experienced a this? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have tremendous moment when you would have tremendous moment when you would have answered him, you are a god and never answered him, you are a god and never answered him, you are a god and never have I heard anything more divine? And have I heard anything more divine? And have I heard anything more divine? And the point that he's trying to make is the point that he's trying to make is the point that he's trying to make is you know that you are living the life you know that you are living the life you know that you are living the life that you're meant to live if you would that you're meant to live if you would that you're meant to live if you would be okay living it over innumerable be okay living it over innumerable be okay living it over innumerable times. And so times. And so times. And so that to me is like I am so [ __ ] lucky that to me is like I am so [ __ ] lucky that to me is like I am so [ __ ] lucky that I ended up telling stories cuz it's that I ended up telling stories cuz it's that I ended up telling stories cuz it's what I'm meant to do. I don't know why. what I'm meant to do. I don't know why. what I'm meant to do. I don't know why. I don't know. It's literally it's it's I don't know. It's literally it's it's I don't know. It's literally it's it's it gives me a calmness. It makes me it's it gives me a calmness. It makes me it's it gives me a calmness. It makes me it's why I love writing books. Like most why I love writing books. Like most why I love writing books. Like most people hate writing books. I [ __ ] people hate writing books. I [ __ ] people hate writing books. I [ __ ] love it. There's nothing I enjoy more love it. There's nothing I enjoy more love it. There's nothing I enjoy more than than the challenge of telling a than than the challenge of telling a than than the challenge of telling a story in 110,000 words. And and it and I story in 110,000 words. And and it and I story in 110,000 words. And and it and I think if you told me I have to write think if you told me I have to write think if you told me I have to write books every day for the rest of you the books every day for the rest of you the books every day for the rest of you the like the civilization or whatever it is like the civilization or whatever it is like the civilization or whatever it is like I'd be the happiest person ever. like I'd be the happiest person ever. like I'd be the happiest person ever. And I think that um to me that's really And I think that um to me that's really And I think that um to me that's really what it's all about. And it's if you if what it's all about. And it's if you if what it's all about. And it's if you if you know that you're doing that uh that you know that you're doing that uh that you know that you're doing that uh that you that you're comfortable with the you that you're comfortable with the you that you're comfortable with the fact that you are living this life that fact that you are living this life that fact that you are living this life that you're meant to live uh then that's what you're meant to live uh then that's what you're meant to live uh then that's what it's all about. That's the meaning and it's all about. That's the meaning and it's all about. That's the meaning and that's man's search for meaning. That is that's man's search for meaning. That is that's man's search for meaning. That is it. And it could be like maybe you you it. And it could be like maybe you you it. And it could be like maybe you you love branding, you love running, you love branding, you love running, you love branding, you love running, you love climbing towers, like you love love climbing towers, like you love love climbing towers, like you love podcasting, whatever it is, it's about podcasting, whatever it is, it's about podcasting, whatever it is, it's about finding that thing. And I think that to finding that thing. And I think that to finding that thing. And I think that to me me me >> um and that that to me is what it's all >> um and that that to me is what it's all >> um and that that to me is what it's all about until the AI kills us all. about until the AI kills us all. about until the AI kills us all. >> I think that's beautifully put. I would >> I think that's beautifully put. I would >> I think that's beautifully put. I would only add to that uh that perhaps amidst only add to that uh that perhaps amidst only add to that uh that perhaps amidst this uncertainty or being in the eye of this uncertainty or being in the eye of this uncertainty or being in the eye of this AI hurricane that maybe we can this AI hurricane that maybe we can this AI hurricane that maybe we can appreciate the moment a little bit more. appreciate the moment a little bit more. appreciate the moment a little bit more. like if this is truly everything's like if this is truly everything's like if this is truly everything's transient but now it just is like you transient but now it just is like you transient but now it just is like you know it's on a shorter time frame right know it's on a shorter time frame right know it's on a shorter time frame right like okay well if this is going to go like okay well if this is going to go like okay well if this is going to go away or things are going to look very away or things are going to look very away or things are going to look very different in an unpredictable fashion different in an unpredictable fashion different in an unpredictable fashion like in a very short period of time like in a very short period of time like in a very short period of time let's try to really appreciate the lives let's try to really appreciate the lives let's try to really appreciate the lives that we have right now and like yourself that we have right now and like yourself that we have right now and like yourself I feel extremely lucky to be able to do I feel extremely lucky to be able to do I feel extremely lucky to be able to do what I do and sit across from people what I do and sit across from people what I do and sit across from people like yourself and and learn from them like yourself and and learn from them like yourself and and learn from them >> no it's I I completely agree and I think >> no it's I I completely agree and I think >> no it's I I completely agree and I think one of the biggest one of the biggest one of the biggest somebody said this to me 15 years ago somebody said this to me 15 years ago somebody said this to me 15 years ago when the um it was 17 years ago so when when the um it was 17 years ago so when when the um it was 17 years ago so when the iPhone first came out uh they had a the iPhone first came out uh they had a the iPhone first came out uh they had a very precient point which was my biggest very precient point which was my biggest very precient point which was my biggest worry is not the screen and the this and worry is not the screen and the this and worry is not the screen and the this and that it's that we will never have that it's that we will never have that it's that we will never have moments where we just sit anymore and moments where we just sit anymore and moments where we just sit anymore and boy were they right and I think like one boy were they right and I think like one boy were they right and I think like one of the things and it's hard it is so of the things and it's hard it is so of the things and it's hard it is so hard but one of the things that I really hard but one of the things that I really hard but one of the things that I really have been trying to do is like just put have been trying to do is like just put have been trying to do is like just put it way, even if it's for five minutes. it way, even if it's for five minutes. it way, even if it's for five minutes. Like people used to sit on their porch Like people used to sit on their porch Like people used to sit on their porch >> and just think, you know, >> and just think, you know, >> and just think, you know, >> and now like you're you're like you're >> and now like you're you're like you're >> and now like you're you're like you're in a urinal and you're like, "Oh, I can in a urinal and you're like, "Oh, I can in a urinal and you're like, "Oh, I can I can read an email, you know?" And it's I can read an email, you know?" And it's I can read an email, you know?" And it's like it's it's I think this is honestly like it's it's I think this is honestly like it's it's I think this is honestly one of the worst inventions in humanity. one of the worst inventions in humanity. one of the worst inventions in humanity. It is literally like I wonder if Steve It is literally like I wonder if Steve It is literally like I wonder if Steve Jobs were still alive if he'd be like, Jobs were still alive if he'd be like, Jobs were still alive if he'd be like, "Oh, I did a great thing." Or or like I "Oh, I did a great thing." Or or like I "Oh, I did a great thing." Or or like I did a terrible thing. And uh and I think did a terrible thing. And uh and I think did a terrible thing. And uh and I think it really is a it's it's just you got to it really is a it's it's just you got to it really is a it's it's just you got to you have to fight against the technology you have to fight against the technology you have to fight against the technology >> even though we all need to use it to be >> even though we all need to use it to be >> even though we all need to use it to be in the society we live in. in the society we live in. in the society we live in. >> Uh I think that's a good place to end >> Uh I think that's a good place to end >> Uh I think that's a good place to end it. But I I would ask you this final it. But I I would ask you this final it. But I I would ask you this final question. Uh how is it collaborating question. Uh how is it collaborating question. Uh how is it collaborating with The Rock on this project? with The Rock on this project? with The Rock on this project? >> He's just a sweet guy. He's like really >> He's just a sweet guy. He's like really >> He's just a sweet guy. He's like really thoughtful. Always thinking about other thoughtful. Always thinking about other thoughtful. Always thinking about other people. He um he's funny. He sends he people. He um he's funny. He sends he people. He um he's funny. He sends he doesn't send texts. He sends voice doesn't send texts. He sends voice doesn't send texts. He sends voice notes. And so, uh, you get these long notes. And so, uh, you get these long notes. And so, uh, you get these long voice notes from from Dwayne and and and voice notes from from Dwayne and and and voice notes from from Dwayne and and and it's like it's just they're fun, you it's like it's just they're fun, you it's like it's just they're fun, you know? He's like telling his thoughts and know? He's like telling his thoughts and know? He's like telling his thoughts and his, you know, his, you know, his, you know, >> that tells me that he appreciates the >> that tells me that he appreciates the >> that tells me that he appreciates the fact that he holds a certain stature. fact that he holds a certain stature. fact that he holds a certain stature. Like if you get a voice memo for him, Like if you get a voice memo for him, Like if you get a voice memo for him, you're going to save that thing. It's you're going to save that thing. It's you're going to save that thing. It's his voice. He's speaking to you. You his voice. He's speaking to you. You his voice. He's speaking to you. You know what I mean? As opposed to like know what I mean? As opposed to like know what I mean? As opposed to like just texting. just texting. just texting. >> He also he like works out like 3 hours a >> He also he like works out like 3 hours a >> He also he like works out like 3 hours a day. I think he's doing he's in the gym day. I think he's doing he's in the gym day. I think he's doing he's in the gym voice rather than like he's like voice rather than like he's like voice rather than like he's like >> lifting 400 lb with one arm and then >> lifting 400 lb with one arm and then >> lifting 400 lb with one arm and then sending you a voice note. But he's sending you a voice note. But he's sending you a voice note. But he's great. He's been an amazing collaborator great. He's been an amazing collaborator great. He's been an amazing collaborator and and he really got in there like we and and he really got in there like we and and he really got in there like we did a lot of the interviews together did a lot of the interviews together did a lot of the interviews together like with the like with the like with the >> the former mob bosses and >> the former mob bosses and >> the former mob bosses and >> and Scorsesei >> and Scorsesei >> and Scorsesei >> and Scorsesei has been he's you know >> and Scorsesei has been he's you know >> and Scorsesei has been he's you know it's that was a surreal moment. I was it's that was a surreal moment. I was it's that was a surreal moment. I was with him in New York recently and we with him in New York recently and we with him in New York recently and we were breaking the story and batting were breaking the story and batting were breaking the story and batting around ideas and talking about good around ideas and talking about good around ideas and talking about good fellas and this that and the other and fellas and this that and the other and fellas and this that and the other and uh he's 83 but like he's got more energy uh he's 83 but like he's got more energy uh he's 83 but like he's got more energy than me, you know. It's um it's it's than me, you know. It's um it's it's than me, you know. It's um it's it's interesting. It's like um you know interesting. It's like um you know interesting. It's like um you know they're they're they're that's an it's an example of like the that's an it's an example of like the that's an it's an example of like the people that are doing the thing that people that are doing the thing that people that are doing the thing that they should be doing. Um, and uh, and they should be doing. Um, and uh, and they should be doing. Um, and uh, and they're really good at it and they're, they're really good at it and they're, they're really good at it and they're, you know, and that that's it's been you know, and that that's it's been you know, and that that's it's been really fun to to be a part of that. Um, really fun to to be a part of that. Um, really fun to to be a part of that. Um, in watching the Scorsesei documentary in watching the Scorsesei documentary in watching the Scorsesei documentary and there's that part where they're in, and there's that part where they're in, and there's that part where they're in, you know, they're talking to his you know, they're talking to his you know, they're talking to his childhood friends and and they're childhood friends and and they're childhood friends and and they're talking about how he's literally talking about how he's literally talking about how he's literally storyboarding movies as this little kid storyboarding movies as this little kid storyboarding movies as this little kid and everyone's like, "What are you and everyone's like, "What are you and everyone's like, "What are you doing?" Like, clearly this guy is doing doing?" Like, clearly this guy is doing doing?" Like, clearly this guy is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing. exactly what he's supposed to be doing. exactly what he's supposed to be doing. like he is living the fully expressed like he is living the fully expressed like he is living the fully expressed version of who he was always meant to version of who he was always meant to version of who he was always meant to be. be. be. >> I think that's what it's all about. Like >> I think that's what it's all about. Like >> I think that's what it's all about. Like it's about it's about finding that thing it's about it's about finding that thing it's about it's about finding that thing and it doesn't matter what it is. I and it doesn't matter what it is. I and it doesn't matter what it is. I mean, you don't want to be a serial mean, you don't want to be a serial mean, you don't want to be a serial killer if you're meant to be, but like killer if you're meant to be, but like killer if you're meant to be, but like but like it's about finding your place but like it's about finding your place but like it's about finding your place on in on the stage in this play like and on in on the stage in this play like and on in on the stage in this play like and and and and that's it. Cuz we don't know. We will that's it. Cuz we don't know. We will that's it. Cuz we don't know. We will never know. An AI is never going to tell never know. An AI is never going to tell never know. An AI is never going to tell us why we're here. Like we're never us why we're here. Like we're never us why we're here. Like we're never going to figure that out. So, we just going to figure that out. So, we just going to figure that out. So, we just have to go with the thing that we we are have to go with the thing that we we are have to go with the thing that we we are comfortable with in that moment and comfortable with in that moment and comfortable with in that moment and that's usually the thing that we want to that's usually the thing that we want to that's usually the thing that we want to be doing and um and that's what it's all be doing and um and that's what it's all be doing and um and that's what it's all about. about. about. >> I think that's a good place to end it, >> I think that's a good place to end it, >> I think that's a good place to end it, man. man. man. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Beautiful way to conclude this >> Beautiful way to conclude this >> Beautiful way to conclude this conversation. Thanks, Nick. conversation. Thanks, Nick. conversation. Thanks, Nick. >> Thank you for having me. It's been a lot >> Thank you for having me. It's been a lot >> Thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun. of fun. of fun. >> Yeah. Very cool. Uh the movie obviously >> Yeah. Very cool. Uh the movie obviously >> Yeah. Very cool. Uh the movie obviously is going to be a couple years before is going to be a couple years before is going to be a couple years before this thing is out. this thing is out. this thing is out. >> Be a couple years. Yeah. The book is >> Be a couple years. Yeah. The book is >> Be a couple years. Yeah. The book is coming out next year. coming out next year. coming out next year. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a podcast I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a podcast I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a podcast I'm doing with um Dick Costello and Paul doing with um Dick Costello and Paul doing with um Dick Costello and Paul Kadovski. Dick was the former CEO of Kadovski. Dick was the former CEO of Kadovski. Dick was the former CEO of Twitter. Uh it's called the Nick, Dick, Twitter. Uh it's called the Nick, Dick, Twitter. Uh it's called the Nick, Dick, and Paul Show. We talk about all all and Paul Show. We talk about all all and Paul Show. We talk about all all sorts of stuff like this every week. sorts of stuff like this every week. sorts of stuff like this every week. >> Nice. All right, man. We'll come back >> Nice. All right, man. We'll come back >> Nice. All right, man. We'll come back and share some more when the book's and share some more when the book's and share some more when the book's coming out. coming out. coming out. >> Love to. All right. Thanks, Nick. >> Love to. All right. Thanks, Nick. >> Love to. All right. Thanks, Nick. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Peace.