Evan Spiegel: Turning Down a Billion Dollars

super excited to talk to you. Uh we've super excited to talk to you. Uh we've been talking a bunch before we started been talking a bunch before we started been talking a bunch before we started recording. I did a podcast on you like recording. I did a podcast on you like recording. I did a podcast on you like almost 10 years ago. It's episode I almost 10 years ago. It's episode I almost 10 years ago. It's episode I think 22 of Founders based on this book think 22 of Founders based on this book think 22 of Founders based on this book on how to turn down a billion dollars. on how to turn down a billion dollars. on how to turn down a billion dollars. The thing that stuck out to me the most The thing that stuck out to me the most The thing that stuck out to me the most that when I read that book cuz a lot of that when I read that book cuz a lot of that when I read that book cuz a lot of that story takes place when you're like that story takes place when you're like that story takes place when you're like still in college and you're talking still in college and you're talking still in college and you're talking about two of your entrepreneur heroes about two of your entrepreneur heroes about two of your entrepreneur heroes and Steve Jobs makes sense, my and Steve Jobs makes sense, my and Steve Jobs makes sense, my entrepreneur hero too. But you mentioned entrepreneur hero too. But you mentioned entrepreneur hero too. But you mentioned this guy named Edwin Land and I'm this guy named Edwin Land and I'm this guy named Edwin Land and I'm reading this I'm like how the [ __ ] does reading this I'm like how the [ __ ] does reading this I'm like how the [ __ ] does a 21-y old kid even know who Edwin Land a 21-y old kid even know who Edwin Land a 21-y old kid even know who Edwin Land is? I've done like 10 podcasts on him, is? I've done like 10 podcasts on him, is? I've done like 10 podcasts on him, read every single biography. Tell me read every single biography. Tell me read every single biography. Tell me what like how you discovered Edwin Land what like how you discovered Edwin Land what like how you discovered Edwin Land and what you admired about him. and what you admired about him. and what you admired about him. >> Yeah, I I think you know he's so central >> Yeah, I I think you know he's so central >> Yeah, I I think you know he's so central to the history of photography and so you to the history of photography and so you to the history of photography and so you know as we've set out to try to reinvent know as we've set out to try to reinvent know as we've set out to try to reinvent the camera and how people express the camera and how people express the camera and how people express themselves with the camera, we studied a themselves with the camera, we studied a themselves with the camera, we studied a lot you know about the evolution of the lot you know about the evolution of the lot you know about the evolution of the camera over time. I mean, one of the camera over time. I mean, one of the camera over time. I mean, one of the funny stories that we found out, the funny stories that we found out, the funny stories that we found out, the first selfie ever was taken by a guy first selfie ever was taken by a guy first selfie ever was taken by a guy named Robert Cornelius. And the my named Robert Cornelius. And the my named Robert Cornelius. And the my co-founder Bobby, his name is Robert co-founder Bobby, his name is Robert co-founder Bobby, his name is Robert Cornelius Murphy. So, like we we found Cornelius Murphy. So, like we we found Cornelius Murphy. So, like we we found just like by un unpacking like the just like by un unpacking like the just like by un unpacking like the history of of photography a lot of history of of photography a lot of history of of photography a lot of interesting, you know, similarities and interesting, you know, similarities and interesting, you know, similarities and parallels. And we've learned a ton from parallels. And we've learned a ton from parallels. And we've learned a ton from founders like Edwin Land who transformed founders like Edwin Land who transformed founders like Edwin Land who transformed photography really by focusing on photography really by focusing on photography really by focusing on building amazing products and thinking building amazing products and thinking building amazing products and thinking about, you know, how to make sure those about, you know, how to make sure those about, you know, how to make sure those products fit into people's lives and products fit into people's lives and products fit into people's lives and uplifted humanity. I think, you know, if uplifted humanity. I think, you know, if uplifted humanity. I think, you know, if you look at instant photography and the you look at instant photography and the you look at instant photography and the role that that played in people's lives, role that that played in people's lives, role that that played in people's lives, Edwin thought of the camera as something Edwin thought of the camera as something Edwin thought of the camera as something that was incredibly personal, right? And that was incredibly personal, right? And that was incredibly personal, right? And and I think um as we've looked at the and I think um as we've looked at the and I think um as we've looked at the the sort of trajectory of technology the sort of trajectory of technology the sort of trajectory of technology over the long arc of time, technology over the long arc of time, technology over the long arc of time, technology gets more and more and more and more gets more and more and more and more gets more and more and more and more personal. And so I think as technology personal. And so I think as technology personal. And so I think as technology gets more deeply interwoven in our gets more deeply interwoven in our gets more deeply interwoven in our lives, the founders who are thinking lives, the founders who are thinking lives, the founders who are thinking about making technology more personal uh about making technology more personal uh about making technology more personal uh and how it, you know, how the how the and how it, you know, how the how the and how it, you know, how the how the things they're inventing like fit into things they're inventing like fit into things they're inventing like fit into and support humanity, I think that's a and support humanity, I think that's a and support humanity, I think that's a real advantage. But how does a real advantage. But how does a real advantage. But how does a 21-year-old kid decide because you even 21-year-old kid decide because you even 21-year-old kid decide because you even said it in the book that you're like, I said it in the book that you're like, I said it in the book that you're like, I want to build a company at the want to build a company at the want to build a company at the intersection of technology and liberal intersection of technology and liberal intersection of technology and liberal arts? What was happening that you were arts? What was happening that you were arts? What was happening that you were interested like in doing that? Part of interested like in doing that? Part of interested like in doing that? Part of it was my background growing up. So I it was my background growing up. So I it was my background growing up. So I went to school uh in Santa Monica here went to school uh in Santa Monica here went to school uh in Santa Monica here uh you know and uh a school called uh you know and uh a school called uh you know and uh a school called Crossroads. Uh Crossroads, you know, Crossroads. Uh Crossroads, you know, Crossroads. Uh Crossroads, you know, it's the the full name for Crossroads it's the the full name for Crossroads it's the the full name for Crossroads actually crossroads school for arts and actually crossroads school for arts and actually crossroads school for arts and sciences. So it actually is, you know, sciences. So it actually is, you know, sciences. So it actually is, you know, the intersection of science and and art the intersection of science and and art the intersection of science and and art together. And actually a lot of what the together. And actually a lot of what the together. And actually a lot of what the school is focused on is developing school is focused on is developing school is focused on is developing empathy, building empathy. And they have empathy, building empathy. And they have empathy, building empathy. And they have this thing called council for example this thing called council for example this thing called council for example where you sit with about 12 other where you sit with about 12 other where you sit with about 12 other students and you know speak from the students and you know speak from the students and you know speak from the heart uh and take turns expressing heart uh and take turns expressing heart uh and take turns expressing yourself. And the school's really yourself. And the school's really yourself. And the school's really oriented on on how you build strong oriented on on how you build strong oriented on on how you build strong relationships, build empathy with other relationships, build empathy with other relationships, build empathy with other people. And so I I literally I I grew up people. And so I I literally I I grew up people. And so I I literally I I grew up at a school that was so focused on the at a school that was so focused on the at a school that was so focused on the intersection of art and science, but intersection of art and science, but intersection of art and science, but then also wrapped all of it in, you then also wrapped all of it in, you then also wrapped all of it in, you know, a commitment to humanity, to know, a commitment to humanity, to know, a commitment to humanity, to understanding one another, to building understanding one another, to building understanding one another, to building relationships, you know, to giving back. relationships, you know, to giving back. relationships, you know, to giving back. I mean, the school is very anchored in I mean, the school is very anchored in I mean, the school is very anchored in community service. Uh our our three of community service. Uh our our three of community service. Uh our our three of our kids go there, uh now, which is fun. our kids go there, uh now, which is fun. our kids go there, uh now, which is fun. Uh some of the teachers are still there, Uh some of the teachers are still there, Uh some of the teachers are still there, but I think a lot of it was from my but I think a lot of it was from my but I think a lot of it was from my upbringing and that being a real focus. upbringing and that being a real focus. upbringing and that being a real focus. And then, you know, as I as I got a bit And then, you know, as I as I got a bit And then, you know, as I as I got a bit older and I got, you know, into things older and I got, you know, into things older and I got, you know, into things like graphic design and I built my own like graphic design and I built my own like graphic design and I built my own computer, I was always sort of working computer, I was always sort of working computer, I was always sort of working at that intersection of of art and and at that intersection of of art and and at that intersection of of art and and technology. technology. technology. >> Yeah. I think the perception of you is >> Yeah. I think the perception of you is >> Yeah. I think the perception of you is like you're like this cool like, you like you're like this cool like, you like you're like this cool like, you know, designer, but you actually know, designer, but you actually know, designer, but you actually self-described as like a nerd growing self-described as like a nerd growing self-described as like a nerd growing up. up. up. >> My wife and I always joke it's cool to >> My wife and I always joke it's cool to >> My wife and I always joke it's cool to be uncool. So, I definitely don't think be uncool. So, I definitely don't think be uncool. So, I definitely don't think of myself as cool. Uh, and and my of myself as cool. Uh, and and my of myself as cool. Uh, and and my background really was, you know, in the background really was, you know, in the background really was, you know, in the computer lab. I mean I it's it's one of computer lab. I mean I it's it's one of computer lab. I mean I it's it's one of the things that also inspired a lot of the things that also inspired a lot of the things that also inspired a lot of the work that we do because as I reflect the work that we do because as I reflect the work that we do because as I reflect on growing up one of my frustrations or on growing up one of my frustrations or on growing up one of my frustrations or disappointments with the way that disappointments with the way that disappointments with the way that computers have been built over time is computers have been built over time is computers have been built over time is that they actually pulled us away from that they actually pulled us away from that they actually pulled us away from one another. So growing up you know one another. So growing up you know one another. So growing up you know during lunch rather than being on the during lunch rather than being on the during lunch rather than being on the recess yard running around with my recess yard running around with my recess yard running around with my friends I was so inspired by what friends I was so inspired by what friends I was so inspired by what computers could do I was obsessed with computers could do I was obsessed with computers could do I was obsessed with computers. So, I was in the computer lab computers. So, I was in the computer lab computers. So, I was in the computer lab all day long. And computers, I think, all day long. And computers, I think, all day long. And computers, I think, you know, whether it was the mainframe you know, whether it was the mainframe you know, whether it was the mainframe or the desktop, you know, have have sort or the desktop, you know, have have sort or the desktop, you know, have have sort of pulled us away from one another, away of pulled us away from one another, away of pulled us away from one another, away from society, brought us indoors, right, from society, brought us indoors, right, from society, brought us indoors, right, into this very like single player uh into this very like single player uh into this very like single player uh experience. And so, a lot of what I've experience. And so, a lot of what I've experience. And so, a lot of what I've thought about and a lot of what has thought about and a lot of what has thought about and a lot of what has inspired me is like how do we take all inspired me is like how do we take all inspired me is like how do we take all these extraordinary benefits that these extraordinary benefits that these extraordinary benefits that computing bring to the brings to the computing bring to the brings to the computing bring to the brings to the world, but actually use it to support world, but actually use it to support world, but actually use it to support our connections with one another, our our connections with one another, our our connections with one another, our connections to the world. Can we build a connections to the world. Can we build a connections to the world. Can we build a computer that brings us outside, right, computer that brings us outside, right, computer that brings us outside, right, that we use together with friends? that we use together with friends? that we use together with friends? Because I think, you know, one of the Because I think, you know, one of the Because I think, you know, one of the side effects of my love of technology side effects of my love of technology side effects of my love of technology growing up was that it pulled me away growing up was that it pulled me away growing up was that it pulled me away from, you know, more social from, you know, more social from, you know, more social relationships or or just running around relationships or or just running around relationships or or just running around playing on the schoolyard. playing on the schoolyard. playing on the schoolyard. >> So, wait, you had that philosophy even >> So, wait, you had that philosophy even >> So, wait, you had that philosophy even back then when you were in your 20s? back then when you were in your 20s? back then when you were in your 20s? >> Yeah. I mean, that that's a lot of like >> Yeah. I mean, that that's a lot of like >> Yeah. I mean, that that's a lot of like what inspired how we thought about the what inspired how we thought about the what inspired how we thought about the evolution of Snapchat. I mean, even evolution of Snapchat. I mean, even evolution of Snapchat. I mean, even basic things like opening into the basic things like opening into the basic things like opening into the camera, right? It opens into your camera, right? It opens into your camera, right? It opens into your experience of the world, right? Not, you experience of the world, right? Not, you experience of the world, right? Not, you know, a feed of content from other know, a feed of content from other know, a feed of content from other people, not a a messaging feed alerting people, not a a messaging feed alerting people, not a a messaging feed alerting you to what other people are sending you to what other people are sending you to what other people are sending you. literally opens into your you. literally opens into your you. literally opens into your experience. And so from the very experience. And so from the very experience. And so from the very beginning, we've thought about like how beginning, we've thought about like how beginning, we've thought about like how do we ground your experience of do we ground your experience of do we ground your experience of computing like in what what is right in computing like in what what is right in computing like in what what is right in front of you in the present moment and front of you in the present moment and front of you in the present moment and inspire you to create from that. inspire you to create from that. inspire you to create from that. >> Why do you think that the way computing >> Why do you think that the way computing >> Why do you think that the way computing was before it would just isolate you? So was before it would just isolate you? So was before it would just isolate you? So essentially you're just staring at a essentially you're just staring at a essentially you're just staring at a screen getting materials pushed to you. screen getting materials pushed to you. screen getting materials pushed to you. >> I think the early versions of computers >> I think the early versions of computers >> I think the early versions of computers just given their physical and just given their physical and just given their physical and technological constraints, right? Like technological constraints, right? Like technological constraints, right? Like whether it was a mainframe you had to go whether it was a mainframe you had to go whether it was a mainframe you had to go to like a building to use a computer, to like a building to use a computer, to like a building to use a computer, right? Or a desktop that you had to keep right? Or a desktop that you had to keep right? Or a desktop that you had to keep plugged into the wall. I think those plugged into the wall. I think those plugged into the wall. I think those physical constraints pulled you out of physical constraints pulled you out of physical constraints pulled you out of whatever environment you want to be in. whatever environment you want to be in. whatever environment you want to be in. I think the laptop and the and the I think the laptop and the and the I think the laptop and the and the mobile, you know, mobile phones are mobile, you know, mobile phones are mobile, you know, mobile phones are representative of this continuum of representative of this continuum of representative of this continuum of computing getting more personal. But I computing getting more personal. But I computing getting more personal. But I think today people feel like, you know, think today people feel like, you know, think today people feel like, you know, I think they're spending seven or eight I think they're spending seven or eight I think they're spending seven or eight hours on average staring at screens. hours on average staring at screens. hours on average staring at screens. They feel like screens are pulling them They feel like screens are pulling them They feel like screens are pulling them out of the moment or away from friends out of the moment or away from friends out of the moment or away from friends or when they're at the dinner table, or when they're at the dinner table, or when they're at the dinner table, they're looking at a phone instead of they're looking at a phone instead of they're looking at a phone instead of connecting with one another. And so to connecting with one another. And so to connecting with one another. And so to me there's this big question of like how me there's this big question of like how me there's this big question of like how do we get all these amazing benefits of do we get all these amazing benefits of do we get all these amazing benefits of computing but in a way that actually computing but in a way that actually computing but in a way that actually connect us with one another, connect us connect us with one another, connect us connect us with one another, connect us to the outdoors, connect us to the to the outdoors, connect us to the to the outdoors, connect us to the world. Um and that's so much of what world. Um and that's so much of what world. Um and that's so much of what we're working on. If you like just came we're working on. If you like just came we're working on. If you like just came to if you were an alien, you came to to if you were an alien, you came to to if you were an alien, you came to Earth. I remember like walking um like Earth. I remember like walking um like Earth. I remember like walking um like to pick up my daughter from school, you to pick up my daughter from school, you to pick up my daughter from school, you could either sit in the car line, right, could either sit in the car line, right, could either sit in the car line, right, or you could get out and like pick them or you could get out and like pick them or you could get out and like pick them up. And this is like many years ago. And up. And this is like many years ago. And up. And this is like many years ago. And so I had to I was like I'm going to walk so I had to I was like I'm going to walk so I had to I was like I'm going to walk and I passed by 30 cars and every single and I passed by 30 cars and every single and I passed by 30 cars and every single person in the line waiting to pick up person in the line waiting to pick up person in the line waiting to pick up their kid was staring at the phone. I'm their kid was staring at the phone. I'm their kid was staring at the phone. I'm like that's not like that's an like that's not like that's an like that's not like that's an addiction. Like that is a crazy thing. I addiction. Like that is a crazy thing. I addiction. Like that is a crazy thing. I was walking on the beach here the other was walking on the beach here the other was walking on the beach here the other day. This lady almost ran into me. This day. This lady almost ran into me. This day. This lady almost ran into me. This is a beautiful freaking beach and she is a beautiful freaking beach and she is a beautiful freaking beach and she almost ran into me cuz she was looking almost ran into me cuz she was looking almost ran into me cuz she was looking at the phone. I was like there's at the phone. I was like there's at the phone. I was like there's mountains and the Pacific Ocean here. mountains and the Pacific Ocean here. mountains and the Pacific Ocean here. What are you doing? That's a crazy thing What are you doing? That's a crazy thing What are you doing? That's a crazy thing to do. Is there anything else from Edwin to do. Is there anything else from Edwin to do. Is there anything else from Edwin Land that like you that inspired you or Land that like you that inspired you or Land that like you that inspired you or that you think like you used either in that you think like you used either in that you think like you used either in the beginning of Snap or now? the beginning of Snap or now? the beginning of Snap or now? >> Before we jump into Edwin, two things >> Before we jump into Edwin, two things >> Before we jump into Edwin, two things you said just like really inspired you said just like really inspired you said just like really inspired inspired me. The first was like uh inspired me. The first was like uh inspired me. The first was like uh school drop off. Like our kids insist school drop off. Like our kids insist school drop off. Like our kids insist that I walk them in every day. So I'm that I walk them in every day. So I'm that I walk them in every day. So I'm like I'm used to doing the long walk in like I'm used to doing the long walk in like I'm used to doing the long walk in while everyone's in the in the car while everyone's in the in the car while everyone's in the in the car poolool line. But I think to your point poolool line. But I think to your point poolool line. But I think to your point what's fun about that is you get to what's fun about that is you get to what's fun about that is you get to connect with everyone and say hi to you connect with everyone and say hi to you connect with everyone and say hi to you know other parents and teachers and you know other parents and teachers and you know other parents and teachers and you know as I mentioned some of the teachers know as I mentioned some of the teachers know as I mentioned some of the teachers that actually taught me when I when I that actually taught me when I when I that actually taught me when I when I was there. But the second thing you was there. But the second thing you was there. But the second thing you said, which which is so funny, my said, which which is so funny, my said, which which is so funny, my daydreaming right now, especially as we daydreaming right now, especially as we daydreaming right now, especially as we think about glasses and the future of think about glasses and the future of think about glasses and the future of computing, is really like what if aliens computing, is really like what if aliens computing, is really like what if aliens are watching Earth right now and they're are watching Earth right now and they're are watching Earth right now and they're like terrified that smartphones have like terrified that smartphones have like terrified that smartphones have like taken over humanity that like we're like taken over humanity that like we're like taken over humanity that like we're spending all day long like caring for spending all day long like caring for spending all day long like caring for these things and like plugging them in these things and like plugging them in these things and like plugging them in and like tending to them and like our and like tending to them and like our and like tending to them and like our lives are all oriented around like these lives are all oriented around like these lives are all oriented around like these little screens. Um, and like what would little screens. Um, and like what would little screens. Um, and like what would aliens do? And so like part of my aliens do? And so like part of my aliens do? And so like part of my imagination has been like what if aliens imagination has been like what if aliens imagination has been like what if aliens are sending specs, sending these glasses are sending specs, sending these glasses are sending specs, sending these glasses to save people from uh you know their to save people from uh you know their to save people from uh you know their lives that I think it becomes so lives that I think it becomes so lives that I think it becomes so oriented around around screen. So it's oriented around around screen. So it's oriented around around screen. So it's funny that you it's funny you mentioned funny that you it's funny you mentioned funny that you it's funny you mentioned that. I love I love thinking about that that. I love I love thinking about that that. I love I love thinking about that like the alien perspective of of uh like the alien perspective of of uh like the alien perspective of of uh humanity right now. humanity right now. humanity right now. >> I think for for Edwin Land I mean >> I think for for Edwin Land I mean >> I think for for Edwin Land I mean there's a couple other things that like there's a couple other things that like there's a couple other things that like really stood out to me. One he was a really stood out to me. One he was a really stood out to me. One he was a statesman, right? And like behind the statesman, right? And like behind the statesman, right? And like behind the scenes people really relied on his scenes people really relied on his scenes people really relied on his advice and he gave it freely. I mean he advice and he gave it freely. I mean he advice and he gave it freely. I mean he was a a big supporter of the US was a a big supporter of the US was a a big supporter of the US government for example was very government for example was very government for example was very thoughtful behind the scenes in thoughtful behind the scenes in thoughtful behind the scenes in providing advice to the US government providing advice to the US government providing advice to the US government including technological advice and and including technological advice and and including technological advice and and so I like that he had a commitment so I like that he had a commitment so I like that he had a commitment beyond just like you know his customers beyond just like you know his customers beyond just like you know his customers and creativity and these sorts of things and creativity and these sorts of things and creativity and these sorts of things he really wanted to participate in he really wanted to participate in he really wanted to participate in building a better world um and and took building a better world um and and took building a better world um and and took that really seriously and then I think that really seriously and then I think that really seriously and then I think if you look at a lot of his um you know if you look at a lot of his um you know if you look at a lot of his um you know a lot of the the investments he made a lot of the the investments he made a lot of the the investments he made around his laboratories and around his around his laboratories and around his around his laboratories and around his innovation he was he was famous actually innovation he was he was famous actually innovation he was he was famous actually and and back then this was quite unique, and and back then this was quite unique, and and back then this was quite unique, famous for uplifting women in those famous for uplifting women in those famous for uplifting women in those research roles, right? And I think like research roles, right? And I think like research roles, right? And I think like he was a real champion of talent. He saw he was a real champion of talent. He saw he was a real champion of talent. He saw talent very clearly. Um, you know, and I talent very clearly. Um, you know, and I talent very clearly. Um, you know, and I think uh, you know, at a time when think uh, you know, at a time when think uh, you know, at a time when people weren't weren't as focused on people weren't weren't as focused on people weren't weren't as focused on that, weren't investing as much in that. that, weren't investing as much in that. that, weren't investing as much in that. He was really focused on uplifting the He was really focused on uplifting the He was really focused on uplifting the best possible talent regardless of folks best possible talent regardless of folks best possible talent regardless of folks background. background. background. I was just on stage at an event with my I was just on stage at an event with my I was just on stage at an event with my friend Eric, who's the co-founder and friend Eric, who's the co-founder and friend Eric, who's the co-founder and CEO of RAMP. When I looked over to my CEO of RAMP. When I looked over to my CEO of RAMP. When I looked over to my right, I noticed that on the sleeve of right, I noticed that on the sleeve of right, I noticed that on the sleeve of Eric's jacket, it said, "We win when our Eric's jacket, it said, "We win when our Eric's jacket, it said, "We win when our customers win." RAMP is the presenting customers win." RAMP is the presenting customers win." RAMP is the presenting sponsor of this podcast, and the way sponsor of this podcast, and the way sponsor of this podcast, and the way that RAMP helps their customers win is that RAMP helps their customers win is that RAMP helps their customers win is by helping you save time, save money, by helping you save time, save money, by helping you save time, save money, and grow revenue. The median company and grow revenue. The median company and grow revenue. The median company running on RAMP cuts their expenses by running on RAMP cuts their expenses by running on RAMP cuts their expenses by 5%. The median company running on RAMP 5%. The median company running on RAMP 5%. The median company running on RAMP also grows their revenue by 16%. So, also grows their revenue by 16%. So, also grows their revenue by 16%. So, when you're running your business on when you're running your business on when you're running your business on RAMP and your competitors are not, you RAMP and your competitors are not, you RAMP and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage have a massive competitive advantage have a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the that compounds over time. Ramp is the that compounds over time. Ramp is the only all-in-one platform designed to only all-in-one platform designed to only all-in-one platform designed to make your finance team faster and make your finance team faster and make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top CEOs and happier. Many of the top CEOs and happier. Many of the top CEOs and founders that I know run their business founders that I know run their business founders that I know run their business on RAMP. I run my business on RAM, and on RAMP. I run my business on RAM, and on RAMP. I run my business on RAM, and you should, too. Go to ramp.com today to you should, too. Go to ramp.com today to you should, too. Go to ramp.com today to learn how they can help your business learn how they can help your business learn how they can help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. save time, save money, and grow revenue. save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. That is ramp.com. That is ramp.com. We're both in LA. We both kind of avoid We're both in LA. We both kind of avoid We're both in LA. We both kind of avoid San Francisco and we were talking it's San Francisco and we were talking it's San Francisco and we were talking it's like the people I admire the most like like the people I admire the most like like the people I admire the most like Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is trying to Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is trying to Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is trying to create technology that enhance humanity. create technology that enhance humanity. create technology that enhance humanity. Some of these weirdos in San Francisco Some of these weirdos in San Francisco Some of these weirdos in San Francisco are creating technology to eliminate are creating technology to eliminate are creating technology to eliminate humanity. humanity. humanity. Why is it so important for you to to Why is it so important for you to to Why is it so important for you to to build technology that actually enhances build technology that actually enhances build technology that actually enhances humanity? Well, I I I think Well, I I I think I think fundamentally like my source of I think fundamentally like my source of I think fundamentally like my source of inspiration is humanity, right? Like I'm inspiration is humanity, right? Like I'm inspiration is humanity, right? Like I'm inspired by other people. I'm inspired inspired by other people. I'm inspired inspired by other people. I'm inspired by, you know, the extraordinary world by, you know, the extraordinary world by, you know, the extraordinary world that humans have have created. I'm that humans have have created. I'm that humans have have created. I'm inspired by the relationships between inspired by the relationships between inspired by the relationships between people and my relationships with other people and my relationships with other people and my relationships with other people. And so so much of what motivates people. And so so much of what motivates people. And so so much of what motivates me and animates what I like to do is me and animates what I like to do is me and animates what I like to do is about making people's lives better, about making people's lives better, about making people's lives better, right? And solving their their problems. right? And solving their their problems. right? And solving their their problems. I mean that's you know we we all get to I mean that's you know we we all get to I mean that's you know we we all get to choose what we do when we get up in the choose what we do when we get up in the choose what we do when we get up in the morning like that's that's what I like morning like that's that's what I like morning like that's that's what I like to do and what I want to want to to do and what I want to want to to do and what I want to want to contribute to the world and I think you contribute to the world and I think you contribute to the world and I think you know the the challenging thing I think know the the challenging thing I think know the the challenging thing I think is you know sometimes when you're is you know sometimes when you're is you know sometimes when you're working on new technology it's so working on new technology it's so working on new technology it's so exciting and inspiring that you can lose exciting and inspiring that you can lose exciting and inspiring that you can lose focus on its impact on on people and I focus on its impact on on people and I focus on its impact on on people and I think we try to start with people right think we try to start with people right think we try to start with people right and really listen to people and what and really listen to people and what and really listen to people and what they respond to how they're feeling they respond to how they're feeling they respond to how they're feeling about the products they're using I mean about the products they're using I mean about the products they're using I mean that's that's one of the you know that that's that's one of the you know that that's that's one of the you know that was the core inspiration of of stories was the core inspiration of of stories was the core inspiration of of stories right was you know people were saying right was you know people were saying right was you know people were saying why is my social media feed in reverse why is my social media feed in reverse why is my social media feed in reverse chronological order. Why is it chronological order. Why is it chronological order. Why is it permanent? Why am I feeling judged all permanent? Why am I feeling judged all permanent? Why am I feeling judged all the time, you know, by how many likes or the time, you know, by how many likes or the time, you know, by how many likes or comments I have? That made us realize comments I have? That made us realize comments I have? That made us realize like the way that people have told like the way that people have told like the way that people have told stories forever, right, is in stories forever, right, is in stories forever, right, is in chronological order. Uh they're not, you chronological order. Uh they're not, you chronological order. Uh they're not, you know, permanently saved forever and know, permanently saved forever and know, permanently saved forever and publicly judged and liked and that sort publicly judged and liked and that sort publicly judged and liked and that sort of thing. And so it was just very easy of thing. And so it was just very easy of thing. And so it was just very easy for us to, you know, develop a, you for us to, you know, develop a, you for us to, you know, develop a, you know, a product where, you know, know, a product where, you know, know, a product where, you know, everything, all the images and videos everything, all the images and videos everything, all the images and videos were in chronological order. They were in chronological order. They were in chronological order. They deleted after 24 hours. You could start deleted after 24 hours. You could start deleted after 24 hours. You could start your day fresh the next day. uh they your day fresh the next day. uh they your day fresh the next day. uh they didn't have these likes and comments didn't have these likes and comments didn't have these likes and comments which opened up this whole new world of which opened up this whole new world of which opened up this whole new world of self-expression, right? Because instead self-expression, right? Because instead self-expression, right? Because instead of just trying to post what would look of just trying to post what would look of just trying to post what would look pretty or popular or perfect, people pretty or popular or perfect, people pretty or popular or perfect, people were sharing this whole range of human were sharing this whole range of human were sharing this whole range of human emotions. So, so much of what we do and emotions. So, so much of what we do and emotions. So, so much of what we do and what we're inspired by is just, you what we're inspired by is just, you what we're inspired by is just, you know, by the way people feel, what they know, by the way people feel, what they know, by the way people feel, what they share with us and and really this desire share with us and and really this desire share with us and and really this desire to help people build stronger to help people build stronger to help people build stronger relationships with one another. I read relationships with one another. I read relationships with one another. I read this book about you, the one I did an this book about you, the one I did an this book about you, the one I did an episode on, you know, eight years ago. I episode on, you know, eight years ago. I episode on, you know, eight years ago. I think it's like how to turn down a think it's like how to turn down a think it's like how to turn down a billion dollars or something. He says billion dollars or something. He says billion dollars or something. He says something funny in the there's a quote something funny in the there's a quote something funny in the there's a quote from you in the book. You're like, from you in the book. You're like, from you in the book. You're like, "Whoever invented the internet, why they "Whoever invented the internet, why they "Whoever invented the internet, why they decided to make everything permanent?" decided to make everything permanent?" decided to make everything permanent?" It's completely opposite. It's like this It's completely opposite. It's like this It's completely opposite. It's like this conversation, we haven't recorded yet, conversation, we haven't recorded yet, conversation, we haven't recorded yet, but the conversation we just had but the conversation we just had but the conversation we just had earlier, it's like that wasn't recorded. earlier, it's like that wasn't recorded. earlier, it's like that wasn't recorded. It was just a moment in time. We'll have It was just a moment in time. We'll have It was just a moment in time. We'll have memories of it, like inter different memories of it, like inter different memories of it, like inter different interpretations of it, but then we just interpretations of it, but then we just interpretations of it, but then we just move on to the next. I think that's a move on to the next. I think that's a move on to the next. I think that's a really good example of the way really good example of the way really good example of the way technology ends up shaping human technology ends up shaping human technology ends up shaping human behavior. So, if we're not thoughtful behavior. So, if we're not thoughtful behavior. So, if we're not thoughtful enough about the technology we're enough about the technology we're enough about the technology we're building, it can have unintended building, it can have unintended building, it can have unintended consequences. So in this case, you know, consequences. So in this case, you know, consequences. So in this case, you know, one of the reasons why everything was one of the reasons why everything was one of the reasons why everything was saved forever is because hard drives, saved forever is because hard drives, saved forever is because hard drives, disc based hard drives, right, were disc based hard drives, right, were disc based hard drives, right, were expensive to write over. And so it was expensive to write over. And so it was expensive to write over. And so it was actually more expensive to go back and actually more expensive to go back and actually more expensive to go back and write over something enough to delete it write over something enough to delete it write over something enough to delete it than it was to just leave it there and than it was to just leave it there and than it was to just leave it there and write over it again maybe sometime in write over it again maybe sometime in write over it again maybe sometime in the future when you want to save the future when you want to save the future when you want to save something new. And so no one was something new. And so no one was something new. And so no one was thinking about, you know, how to how to thinking about, you know, how to how to thinking about, you know, how to how to erase things because it was just much erase things because it was just much erase things because it was just much easier to leave it there uh and, you easier to leave it there uh and, you easier to leave it there uh and, you know, maybe maybe write over it when you know, maybe maybe write over it when you know, maybe maybe write over it when you had something new to save. And so a lot had something new to save. And so a lot had something new to save. And so a lot of the early work we even did with of the early work we even did with of the early work we even did with Snapchat was asking about how we can be Snapchat was asking about how we can be Snapchat was asking about how we can be certain that everything is deleted, certain that everything is deleted, certain that everything is deleted, right? And how we can make sure uh that right? And how we can make sure uh that right? And how we can make sure uh that everything is being written over because everything is being written over because everything is being written over because that wasn't a consideration uh for a that wasn't a consideration uh for a that wasn't a consideration uh for a really long time. really long time. really long time. >> So in a very Edwin Landian um way, you >> So in a very Edwin Landian um way, you >> So in a very Edwin Landian um way, you seem to like observe what everybody's seem to like observe what everybody's seem to like observe what everybody's doing and you have like this natural in doing and you have like this natural in doing and you have like this natural in inclination to like go your own path, inclination to like go your own path, inclination to like go your own path, but you had it at the very beginning. but you had it at the very beginning. but you had it at the very beginning. How old were you when you started How old were you when you started How old were you when you started Peekaboo, which turns into Snapchat? I Peekaboo, which turns into Snapchat? I Peekaboo, which turns into Snapchat? I think I was probably I think 20. think I was probably I think 20. think I was probably I think 20. >> Where did this this desire to like do >> Where did this this desire to like do >> Where did this this desire to like do something different come from? something different come from? something different come from? >> My dad was always pushing me to get a >> My dad was always pushing me to get a >> My dad was always pushing me to get a job when I was younger. Like if I was job when I was younger. Like if I was job when I was younger. Like if I was ever around the house, he'd be like, ever around the house, he'd be like, ever around the house, he'd be like, "What are you doing here?" Like get a "What are you doing here?" Like get a "What are you doing here?" Like get a job, right? So I interned uh at Red job, right? So I interned uh at Red job, right? So I interned uh at Red Bull, for example. I interned at a Brais Bull, for example. I interned at a Brais Bull, for example. I interned at a Brais Bioscience. I mean, this was back in the Bioscience. I mean, this was back in the Bioscience. I mean, this was back in the day when we were racking GPUs to do like day when we were racking GPUs to do like day when we were racking GPUs to do like early stage drug discovery. I mean, that early stage drug discovery. I mean, that early stage drug discovery. I mean, that was like my first experience with GPUs, was like my first experience with GPUs, was like my first experience with GPUs, like however many, you know, when I was like however many, you know, when I was like however many, you know, when I was in high school. Um, you know, and then in high school. Um, you know, and then in high school. Um, you know, and then I, uh, I had I had a couple other really I, uh, I had I had a couple other really I, uh, I had I had a couple other really cool internships, but but really my cool internships, but but really my cool internships, but but really my first like more serious job was working first like more serious job was working first like more serious job was working at into it. Um, and working on this at into it. Um, and working on this at into it. Um, and working on this service called text web, which was uh, service called text web, which was uh, service called text web, which was uh, basically designed to help people with basically designed to help people with basically designed to help people with um, touch like touchpad uh, mobile um, touch like touchpad uh, mobile um, touch like touchpad uh, mobile phones build little micro websites phones build little micro websites phones build little micro websites essentially and access them primarily in essentially and access them primarily in essentially and access them primarily in India at the time. Um and so I had India at the time. Um and so I had India at the time. Um and so I had learned all these you know really learned all these you know really learned all these you know really interesting things about business during interesting things about business during interesting things about business during these internships but fundamentally I these internships but fundamentally I these internships but fundamentally I didn't really want to have a boss but didn't really want to have a boss but didn't really want to have a boss but until I saw how possible it was to build until I saw how possible it was to build until I saw how possible it was to build something amazing like with text web I something amazing like with text web I something amazing like with text web I think there was like three of us on the think there was like three of us on the think there was like three of us on the team I I you know I did the least out of team I I you know I did the least out of team I I you know I did the least out of out of the team members but the the out of the team members but the the out of the team members but the the three of us on the team or four of us on three of us on the team or four of us on three of us on the team or four of us on the team were actually able to like the team were actually able to like the team were actually able to like build and launch a service in India build and launch a service in India build and launch a service in India right I was like wow like it's actually right I was like wow like it's actually right I was like wow like it's actually a lot easier uh than I fought to build a lot easier uh than I fought to build a lot easier uh than I fought to build things and to to create things that can things and to to create things that can things and to to create things that can reach, you know, millions of millions of reach, you know, millions of millions of reach, you know, millions of millions of people. And so that really inspired me. people. And so that really inspired me. people. And so that really inspired me. And simultaneously, I you know, I had And simultaneously, I you know, I had And simultaneously, I you know, I had lived across the hall from Bobby who I lived across the hall from Bobby who I lived across the hall from Bobby who I ended up starting uh Peekaboo Snapchat ended up starting uh Peekaboo Snapchat ended up starting uh Peekaboo Snapchat with. Um and he also, you know, he he with. Um and he also, you know, he he with. Um and he also, you know, he he had a job at the time, too. And and we had a job at the time, too. And and we had a job at the time, too. And and we both just loved building things. So we both just loved building things. So we both just loved building things. So we started working on this thing called started working on this thing called started working on this thing called Future Freshman, which was designed to Future Freshman, which was designed to Future Freshman, which was designed to help people get into college. It was help people get into college. It was help people get into college. It was like a total failure, but we had loved like a total failure, but we had loved like a total failure, but we had loved working together. This is an important working together. This is an important working together. This is an important part. Can you tell say why? because I part. Can you tell say why? because I part. Can you tell say why? because I think you took an idea from there for think you took an idea from there for think you took an idea from there for your next business why it failed. your next business why it failed. your next business why it failed. >> Yeah, I mean there were a number of >> Yeah, I mean there were a number of >> Yeah, I mean there were a number of reasons why it failed. I think first of reasons why it failed. I think first of reasons why it failed. I think first of all we we really focused on building the all we we really focused on building the all we we really focused on building the perfect product for way too long before perfect product for way too long before perfect product for way too long before we got feedback. So, you know, I think we got feedback. So, you know, I think we got feedback. So, you know, I think we worked for like 18 months to build we worked for like 18 months to build we worked for like 18 months to build this perfect fullfeatured product, which this perfect fullfeatured product, which this perfect fullfeatured product, which was like in direct contravention to like was like in direct contravention to like was like in direct contravention to like how I was always taught to build things, how I was always taught to build things, how I was always taught to build things, right? Which is like build a prototype, right? Which is like build a prototype, right? Which is like build a prototype, build an MVP, get in front of people, build an MVP, get in front of people, build an MVP, get in front of people, learn as quickly as possible. Um, but we learn as quickly as possible. Um, but we learn as quickly as possible. Um, but we had we had spent all this time building had we had spent all this time building had we had spent all this time building this like perfect piece of software and this like perfect piece of software and this like perfect piece of software and we hadn't thought enough about we hadn't thought enough about we hadn't thought enough about distribution. And so while we built this distribution. And so while we built this distribution. And so while we built this great piece of software, our competitor great piece of software, our competitor great piece of software, our competitor at the time called Naviance, which I at the time called Naviance, which I at the time called Naviance, which I think still today is probably the leader think still today is probably the leader think still today is probably the leader in like this college application sort of in like this college application sort of in like this college application sort of software world, they had secured software world, they had secured software world, they had secured distribution through all the different distribution through all the different distribution through all the different uh college counselors, right? So like uh college counselors, right? So like uh college counselors, right? So like what piece of software you going to what piece of software you going to what piece of software you going to choose to help your kid get into choose to help your kid get into choose to help your kid get into college? The one recommended by the college? The one recommended by the college? The one recommended by the college counselors or the one, you know, college counselors or the one, you know, college counselors or the one, you know, from two kids at at Stanford? I mean, I from two kids at at Stanford? I mean, I from two kids at at Stanford? I mean, I think it's a pretty easy it's a pretty think it's a pretty easy it's a pretty think it's a pretty easy it's a pretty easy choice. So we just saw very early easy choice. So we just saw very early easy choice. So we just saw very early that we had no distribution advantage that we had no distribution advantage that we had no distribution advantage and, you know, even if we loved our and, you know, even if we loved our and, you know, even if we loved our software that people weren't going to software that people weren't going to software that people weren't going to use it. um because we didn't really have use it. um because we didn't really have use it. um because we didn't really have a scalable way to get in people's hands. a scalable way to get in people's hands. a scalable way to get in people's hands. And so around that time when we saw the And so around that time when we saw the And so around that time when we saw the emergence of the app store on iPhone and emergence of the app store on iPhone and emergence of the app store on iPhone and all this sort of thing, it was very all this sort of thing, it was very all this sort of thing, it was very clear that that was a distribution clear that that was a distribution clear that that was a distribution channel that we could really use and channel that we could really use and channel that we could really use and benefit from. Um but that we also needed benefit from. Um but that we also needed benefit from. Um but that we also needed to build things that we could build to build things that we could build to build things that we could build quickly, things that we really were quickly, things that we really were quickly, things that we really were going to use together with our friends going to use together with our friends going to use together with our friends so that we could be the first early so that we could be the first early so that we could be the first early customers. Um and ultimately ultimately customers. Um and ultimately ultimately customers. Um and ultimately ultimately Pikaboo and and Snapchat uh you know um Pikaboo and and Snapchat uh you know um Pikaboo and and Snapchat uh you know um represented that. represented that. represented that. >> Yeah. Because in the book you talked >> Yeah. Because in the book you talked >> Yeah. Because in the book you talked about we build a product, no one used about we build a product, no one used about we build a product, no one used it. it. it. >> It's tough when no one used it except my >> It's tough when no one used it except my >> It's tough when no one used it except my mom. So mom. So mom. So >> move on to the next thing. So is >> move on to the next thing. So is >> move on to the next thing. So is Peekabboo, which turns obviously Peekabboo, which turns obviously Peekabboo, which turns obviously Snapchat. Was that was there anything in Snapchat. Was that was there anything in Snapchat. Was that was there anything in between those two or was it between those two or was it between those two or was it >> there were a couple other like you know >> there were a couple other like you know >> there were a couple other like you know failed sort of uh experiments I would failed sort of uh experiments I would failed sort of uh experiments I would say in between that we were playing say in between that we were playing say in between that we were playing around with like different ideas for around with like different ideas for around with like different ideas for sort of like more private like I sort of like more private like I sort of like more private like I wouldn't say social networks but more wouldn't say social networks but more wouldn't say social networks but more private like groups and social sharing private like groups and social sharing private like groups and social sharing and things like that you know but and things like that you know but and things like that you know but nothing nothing uh that really nothing nothing uh that really nothing nothing uh that really >> but it seemed like it was a direct >> but it seemed like it was a direct >> but it seemed like it was a direct counter to the existing social networks counter to the existing social networks counter to the existing social networks at the time. Yeah, I mean the the at the time. Yeah, I mean the the at the time. Yeah, I mean the the problem that we were experiencing was problem that we were experiencing was problem that we were experiencing was that, you know, the way that everyone that, you know, the way that everyone that, you know, the way that everyone was socializing at the time on on was socializing at the time on on was socializing at the time on on Facebook and I think Instagram was sort Facebook and I think Instagram was sort Facebook and I think Instagram was sort of just getting started at the time, but of just getting started at the time, but of just getting started at the time, but the way that everyone was socializing on the way that everyone was socializing on the way that everyone was socializing on Facebook was like a giant popularity Facebook was like a giant popularity Facebook was like a giant popularity contest. So, it wasn't fun, right? I contest. So, it wasn't fun, right? I contest. So, it wasn't fun, right? I mean, everyone was competing for how mean, everyone was competing for how mean, everyone was competing for how many friends they had, how many likes many friends they had, how many likes many friends they had, how many likes they had. Everything was about pretty they had. Everything was about pretty they had. Everything was about pretty photos. And in college, like we we photos. And in college, like we we photos. And in college, like we we wanted to have fun with our friends, but wanted to have fun with our friends, but wanted to have fun with our friends, but the alternatives, you know, at the time the alternatives, you know, at the time the alternatives, you know, at the time with text messaging, for example, were with text messaging, for example, were with text messaging, for example, were so clunky. I mean, if sending a people so clunky. I mean, if sending a people so clunky. I mean, if sending a people forget like sending an image via text forget like sending an image via text forget like sending an image via text message back then took like a minute, message back then took like a minute, message back then took like a minute, two minutes, right? Like to send uh MMS two minutes, right? Like to send uh MMS two minutes, right? Like to send uh MMS uh you know, it's it was crazy. And so uh you know, it's it was crazy. And so uh you know, it's it was crazy. And so part of the core invention of Snapchat part of the core invention of Snapchat part of the core invention of Snapchat was actually just making it really fast was actually just making it really fast was actually just making it really fast to send images, you know, which which to send images, you know, which which to send images, you know, which which made a huge difference in people's made a huge difference in people's made a huge difference in people's ability to use images to communicate ability to use images to communicate ability to use images to communicate because back then, you know, images were because back then, you know, images were because back then, you know, images were for documenting things. They were for for documenting things. They were for for documenting things. They were for saving memories forever, right? And the saving memories forever, right? And the saving memories forever, right? And the reason why like photography has exploded reason why like photography has exploded reason why like photography has exploded and the you know I think there are more and the you know I think there are more and the you know I think there are more there are more selfies taken on Snapchat there are more selfies taken on Snapchat there are more selfies taken on Snapchat than on iPhone in total right which is a than on iPhone in total right which is a than on iPhone in total right which is a crazy stat. Um but that's because people crazy stat. Um but that's because people crazy stat. Um but that's because people are using images to communicate. And so are using images to communicate. And so are using images to communicate. And so like we we you know in inventing like we we you know in inventing like we we you know in inventing Snapchat in response to kind of this Snapchat in response to kind of this Snapchat in response to kind of this documentary culture around photography documentary culture around photography documentary culture around photography and this feeling of public and public and this feeling of public and public and this feeling of public and public pressure about the way that people were pressure about the way that people were pressure about the way that people were expressing themselves and communicating expressing themselves and communicating expressing themselves and communicating online. Snapchat really especially online. Snapchat really especially online. Snapchat really especially because the camera was on the smartphone because the camera was on the smartphone because the camera was on the smartphone transformed the way that people transformed the way that people transformed the way that people communicate by allowing them to communicate by allowing them to communicate by allowing them to communicate with images. communicate with images. communicate with images. >> So did you think you were building a >> So did you think you were building a >> So did you think you were building a messaging app or a social network? messaging app or a social network? messaging app or a social network? >> A me I mean it's a it's it's a messaging >> A me I mean it's a it's it's a messaging >> A me I mean it's a it's it's a messaging service. We we service. We we service. We we >> but even back then >> but even back then >> but even back then >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We thought about as messaging app. >> We thought about as messaging app. >> We thought about as messaging app. >> Yeah. And we talked I mean it only had >> Yeah. And we talked I mean it only had >> Yeah. And we talked I mean it only had messaging for the longest time until we messaging for the longest time until we messaging for the longest time until we introduced stories. I mean it was only a introduced stories. I mean it was only a introduced stories. I mean it was only a messaging. stories is like got to be one messaging. stories is like got to be one messaging. stories is like got to be one of the best inventions ever in terms of of the best inventions ever in terms of of the best inventions ever in terms of like the apps that we use like how I like the apps that we use like how I like the apps that we use like how I mean now obviously everybody like it's mean now obviously everybody like it's mean now obviously everybody like it's on every single app like you you were on every single app like you you were on every single app like you you were the first one to come up with that and the first one to come up with that and the first one to come up with that and it's I think there's like stories on it's I think there's like stories on it's I think there's like stories on LinkedIn and like Pinterest or some [ __ ] LinkedIn and like Pinterest or some [ __ ] LinkedIn and like Pinterest or some [ __ ] now like it's just places they shouldn't now like it's just places they shouldn't now like it's just places they shouldn't be it's there going back to to the early be it's there going back to to the early be it's there going back to to the early days of the smartphone if you remember days of the smartphone if you remember days of the smartphone if you remember you know Apple was really talking about you know Apple was really talking about you know Apple was really talking about like hey when you're going to watch like hey when you're going to watch like hey when you're going to watch video on your your iPhone you're going video on your your iPhone you're going video on your your iPhone you're going to turn the video the the phone to turn the video the the phone to turn the video the the phone sideways, right? And watch horizontal sideways, right? And watch horizontal sideways, right? And watch horizontal video. And a lot of, you know, in the video. And a lot of, you know, in the video. And a lot of, you know, in the the first year, you know, several years the first year, you know, several years the first year, you know, several years of of Snapchat, almost all video online of of Snapchat, almost all video online of of Snapchat, almost all video online was like horizontal video in the feed. was like horizontal video in the feed. was like horizontal video in the feed. And so when we came out with vertical And so when we came out with vertical And so when we came out with vertical video and we said, no, we think video and we said, no, we think video and we said, no, we think everyone's going to watch video the same everyone's going to watch video the same everyone's going to watch video the same way they hold their phone all day long, way they hold their phone all day long, way they hold their phone all day long, right? Vertically, where people were right? Vertically, where people were right? Vertically, where people were like, what? You know, we had to we like, what? You know, we had to we like, what? You know, we had to we spent, you know, a ton of money at back spent, you know, a ton of money at back spent, you know, a ton of money at back back then without AI, right? Like just back then without AI, right? Like just back then without AI, right? Like just helping advertisers recut their video to helping advertisers recut their video to helping advertisers recut their video to make it vertical. And we had to convince make it vertical. And we had to convince make it vertical. And we had to convince them, showing them that like the them, showing them that like the them, showing them that like the completion rate was ner size horizontal videos. But for us, like size horizontal videos. But for us, like it was just obvious, right? That people it was just obvious, right? That people it was just obvious, right? That people were going to want to watch video the were going to want to watch video the were going to want to watch video the same way they hold their their their same way they hold their their their same way they hold their their their phone. They don't want to turn their phone. They don't want to turn their phone. They don't want to turn their phone to to watch video. But do you see phone to to watch video. But do you see phone to to watch video. But do you see what I keep trying to get to? And like what I keep trying to get to? And like what I keep trying to get to? And like this is not normal though. Like you you this is not normal though. Like you you this is not normal though. Like you you you're very comfortable. I'm trying to you're very comfortable. I'm trying to you're very comfortable. I'm trying to figure out because like the whole point figure out because like the whole point figure out because like the whole point of me having these conversations like of me having these conversations like of me having these conversations like this entire show is just like who am I this entire show is just like who am I this entire show is just like who am I intensely interested in talking to and intensely interested in talking to and intensely interested in talking to and there's something interesting like I'm I there's something interesting like I'm I there's something interesting like I'm I still don't understand where the hell still don't understand where the hell still don't understand where the hell did this like confidence in your own did this like confidence in your own did this like confidence in your own judgment and disregard for the need to judgment and disregard for the need to judgment and disregard for the need to conform come from cuz it's obviously conform come from cuz it's obviously conform come from cuz it's obviously still there today. Like let me give you still there today. Like let me give you still there today. Like let me give you some background. I remember the first uh some background. I remember the first uh some background. I remember the first uh version of Spectacles, the ones you you version of Spectacles, the ones you you version of Spectacles, the ones you you bought in a uh in a vending machine. I bought in a uh in a vending machine. I bought in a uh in a vending machine. I bought them. I wanted them so badly and bought them. I wanted them so badly and bought them. I wanted them so badly and you were out of stock. I bought the like you were out of stock. I bought the like you were out of stock. I bought the like the ugly [ __ ] blue color. the ugly [ __ ] blue color. the ugly [ __ ] blue color. I did not want bright blue [ __ ] I did not want bright blue [ __ ] I did not want bright blue [ __ ] glasses. I'm a grown ass man. But I was glasses. I'm a grown ass man. But I was glasses. I'm a grown ass man. But I was like, "These are this is so weird. This like, "These are this is so weird. This like, "These are this is so weird. This is so interesting." And you were like 10 is so interesting." And you were like 10 is so interesting." And you were like 10 years ahead of everybody else. Where the years ahead of everybody else. Where the years ahead of everybody else. Where the hell does that come from? You know, I I'm not sure. I'm not sure You know, I I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. You know, I think like a lot of exactly. You know, I think like a lot of exactly. You know, I think like a lot of this stuff just like really appears this stuff just like really appears this stuff just like really appears obvious to me and to us, right? Like it obvious to me and to us, right? Like it obvious to me and to us, right? Like it it's it was obvious to me that you know it's it was obvious to me that you know it's it was obvious to me that you know if you looked at the evolution of if you looked at the evolution of if you looked at the evolution of computing that like holding this tiny computing that like holding this tiny computing that like holding this tiny little screen in your hands was not the little screen in your hands was not the little screen in your hands was not the future of computers. Like it makes future of computers. Like it makes future of computers. Like it makes absolutely no sense especially for absolutely no sense especially for absolutely no sense especially for humans that want to like live and work humans that want to like live and work humans that want to like live and work hands-free, right? That want to be able hands-free, right? That want to be able hands-free, right? That want to be able to see one another and like interact to see one another and like interact to see one another and like interact with the world. And so I think when like with the world. And so I think when like with the world. And so I think when like things like that just seems so just things like that just seems so just things like that just seems so just seems so obvious and and we're seems so obvious and and we're seems so obvious and and we're fortunate, right, to be able to invest fortunate, right, to be able to invest fortunate, right, to be able to invest consistently behind that vision because consistently behind that vision because consistently behind that vision because I think like the hard part is not I think like the hard part is not I think like the hard part is not necessarily seeing what the future could necessarily seeing what the future could necessarily seeing what the future could look like. I think a lot of people have look like. I think a lot of people have look like. I think a lot of people have different visions for the future. I different visions for the future. I different visions for the future. I think the thing that's been maybe think the thing that's been maybe think the thing that's been maybe different about Snap or Snapchat is like different about Snap or Snapchat is like different about Snap or Snapchat is like our determination and consistency in our determination and consistency in our determination and consistency in pursuing that vision. I mean with pursuing that vision. I mean with pursuing that vision. I mean with stories, right? Like that you know the stories, right? Like that you know the stories, right? Like that you know the first six months of stories, no one used first six months of stories, no one used first six months of stories, no one used it. I mean, I remember sitting in a it. I mean, I remember sitting in a it. I mean, I remember sitting in a board meeting and we were like, we think board meeting and we were like, we think board meeting and we were like, we think stories is going to be a big thing. You stories is going to be a big thing. You stories is going to be a big thing. You know what I mean? Like, this is the, you know what I mean? Like, this is the, you know what I mean? Like, this is the, you know, we think this is like the future know, we think this is like the future know, we think this is like the future of how people are gonna, you know, want of how people are gonna, you know, want of how people are gonna, you know, want to share, uh, you know, on internet to share, uh, you know, on internet to share, uh, you know, on internet services on Snapchat and the board's services on Snapchat and the board's services on Snapchat and the board's like, well, no one's using it, you know, like, well, no one's using it, you know, like, well, no one's using it, you know, and we're like, okay, but it's new, so and we're like, okay, but it's new, so and we're like, okay, but it's new, so it's going to take time, so like, let's it's going to take time, so like, let's it's going to take time, so like, let's give people time to discover it, to give people time to discover it, to give people time to discover it, to learn about the feature, and then, you learn about the feature, and then, you learn about the feature, and then, you know, maybe by the next board meeting or know, maybe by the next board meeting or know, maybe by the next board meeting or the one after that, like it was growing the one after that, like it was growing the one after that, like it was growing super rapidly. So I think you know the super rapidly. So I think you know the super rapidly. So I think you know the the hard part is not necessarily having the hard part is not necessarily having the hard part is not necessarily having the vision for the future and and often the vision for the future and and often the vision for the future and and often times it's just seems very obvious. The times it's just seems very obvious. The times it's just seems very obvious. The the hard part is delivering it right the hard part is delivering it right the hard part is delivering it right getting there. getting there. getting there. >> Were you disagreeable when you were a >> Were you disagreeable when you were a >> Were you disagreeable when you were a kid? kid? kid? >> I think so. Probably. >> I think so. Probably. >> I think so. Probably. >> If I ask him the people you have working >> If I ask him the people you have working >> If I ask him the people you have working with you is Evan disagreeable would they with you is Evan disagreeable would they with you is Evan disagreeable would they say yes? say yes? say yes? >> Strong opinions loosely held. No. I >> Strong opinions loosely held. No. I >> Strong opinions loosely held. No. I think um think um think um I yeah I I think like I yeah I I think like I yeah I I think like I I think I've always felt comfortable I I think I've always felt comfortable I I think I've always felt comfortable seeing something differently or seeing something differently or seeing something differently or advocating for something different. advocating for something different. advocating for something different. >> Would people that work with you describe >> Would people that work with you describe >> Would people that work with you describe you as uncompromising? you as uncompromising? you as uncompromising? >> I think so. Yeah. >> I think so. Yeah. >> I think so. Yeah. >> Okay. There's a Steve Jobs element. >> Okay. There's a Steve Jobs element. >> Okay. There's a Steve Jobs element. >> Yeah. But but at the same time like >> Yeah. But but at the same time like >> Yeah. But but at the same time like we've tried to build a really different we've tried to build a really different we've tried to build a really different culture because like one of my one of my culture because like one of my one of my culture because like one of my one of my you know that you mentioned the Walter you know that you mentioned the Walter you know that you mentioned the Walter Isaxson book like that book broke my Isaxson book like that book broke my Isaxson book like that book broke my heart right because I think that that heart right because I think that that heart right because I think that that book you know that book essentially book you know that book essentially book you know that book essentially called Steve a bad father which I called Steve a bad father which I called Steve a bad father which I thought was not not only unfair but it thought was not not only unfair but it thought was not not only unfair but it also also also you know sort of made the case that like you know sort of made the case that like you know sort of made the case that like Steve believed that like you could only Steve believed that like you could only Steve believed that like you could only achieve these sorts of things if you achieve these sorts of things if you achieve these sorts of things if you were you know uncompromising but were you know uncompromising but were you know uncompromising but uncompromising with a a taste of mean uncompromising with a a taste of mean uncompromising with a a taste of mean essentially. essentially. essentially. >> And for me watching Steve and seeing how >> And for me watching Steve and seeing how >> And for me watching Steve and seeing how people spoke about him and you know people spoke about him and you know people spoke about him and you know there there are plenty of stories of you there there are plenty of stories of you there there are plenty of stories of you know folks who felt really close to know folks who felt really close to know folks who felt really close to Steve and felt really inspired by Steve Steve and felt really inspired by Steve Steve and felt really inspired by Steve and also stories of people who felt like and also stories of people who felt like and also stories of people who felt like Steve was me, right? And my big question Steve was me, right? And my big question Steve was me, right? And my big question to our team was like could we achieve to our team was like could we achieve to our team was like could we achieve something really extraordinary? Could we something really extraordinary? Could we something really extraordinary? Could we build a culture that was incredibly build a culture that was incredibly build a culture that was incredibly creative but at the same time is kind. creative but at the same time is kind. creative but at the same time is kind. Right? So when with our three values, Right? So when with our three values, Right? So when with our three values, it's kind, smart, creative. And kind is it's kind, smart, creative. And kind is it's kind, smart, creative. And kind is the first one for a reason. And what we the first one for a reason. And what we the first one for a reason. And what we really wanted to do was create a culture really wanted to do was create a culture really wanted to do was create a culture that's uncompromising, but at the same that's uncompromising, but at the same that's uncompromising, but at the same time very kind, and supportive because time very kind, and supportive because time very kind, and supportive because that we think that that is, you know, that we think that that is, you know, that we think that that is, you know, the best sort of and most fertile ground the best sort of and most fertile ground the best sort of and most fertile ground for creativity. If people feel afraid, for creativity. If people feel afraid, for creativity. If people feel afraid, it's very very hard to be creative. I it's very very hard to be creative. I it's very very hard to be creative. I mean, fear is almost like the the mean, fear is almost like the the mean, fear is almost like the the opposite of of of creativity. opposite of of of creativity. opposite of of of creativity. >> There's actually Did you ever read Ed >> There's actually Did you ever read Ed >> There's actually Did you ever read Ed Catmill, the founder of Pixar, his his Catmill, the founder of Pixar, his his Catmill, the founder of Pixar, his his autobiography called Creativity? autobiography called Creativity? autobiography called Creativity? >> No, I always wanted to. >> No, I always wanted to. >> No, I always wanted to. Okay, that's another book. I just gave Okay, that's another book. I just gave Okay, that's another book. I just gave you one book. I'll give you another one. you one book. I'll give you another one. you one book. I'll give you another one. But you can Ed's actually doing the show But you can Ed's actually doing the show But you can Ed's actually doing the show and I can't wait to talk to him cuz he and I can't wait to talk to him cuz he and I can't wait to talk to him cuz he worked for Steve Jobs or worked with worked for Steve Jobs or worked with worked for Steve Jobs or worked with Steve Jobs longer uh more consecutive Steve Jobs longer uh more consecutive Steve Jobs longer uh more consecutive years than anybody else. I think they years than anybody else. I think they years than anybody else. I think they worked together for like 24 years. worked together for like 24 years. worked together for like 24 years. >> I would just buy the book today >> I would just buy the book today >> I would just buy the book today >> and just skip to the end. There's a like >> and just skip to the end. There's a like >> and just skip to the end. There's a like a 20page afterward called the Steve we a 20page afterward called the Steve we a 20page afterward called the Steve we knew. And his whole point after the knew. And his whole point after the knew. And his whole point after the Isacson book came out, he's like he Isacson book came out, he's like he Isacson book came out, he's like he wasn't that's not the Steve I knew. And wasn't that's not the Steve I knew. And wasn't that's not the Steve I knew. And they his point was that in earlier in they his point was that in earlier in they his point was that in earlier in his career there was a lot of these his career there was a lot of these his career there was a lot of these stories. Yes, he was like that, but he stories. Yes, he was like that, but he stories. Yes, he was like that, but he learned and evolved on how to be a learned and evolved on how to be a learned and evolved on how to be a better leader. And so in that like 20 better leader. And so in that like 20 better leader. And so in that like 20 page afterward, Ed is telling the story page afterward, Ed is telling the story page afterward, Ed is telling the story of how he evolved over time. of how he evolved over time. of how he evolved over time. >> [ __ ] 45year-old Steve Jobs is not of >> [ __ ] 45year-old Steve Jobs is not of >> [ __ ] 45year-old Steve Jobs is not of course not going to be the same as course not going to be the same as course not going to be the same as 21-year-old Steve Jobs. 21-year-old Steve Jobs. 21-year-old Steve Jobs. >> So I think that's like a very important >> So I think that's like a very important >> So I think that's like a very important point to make. How do you reconcile point to make. How do you reconcile point to make. How do you reconcile though? Because like there's a lot of though? Because like there's a lot of though? Because like there's a lot of people that are famous about this like people that are famous about this like people that are famous about this like uh uh Elon. I just heard somebody was uh uh Elon. I just heard somebody was uh uh Elon. I just heard somebody was telling me a story. Michael Morris from telling me a story. Michael Morris from telling me a story. Michael Morris from Sequoia said the same thing that like Sequoia said the same thing that like Sequoia said the same thing that like you actually camaraderie is dangerous you actually camaraderie is dangerous you actually camaraderie is dangerous and kindness is dangerous for your and kindness is dangerous for your and kindness is dangerous for your teammates because you can't deliver teammates because you can't deliver teammates because you can't deliver honest feedback and like tell them if honest feedback and like tell them if honest feedback and like tell them if their work isn't up to par or whatever. their work isn't up to par or whatever. their work isn't up to par or whatever. How do you how do you balance that? Like How do you how do you balance that? Like How do you how do you balance that? Like be kind but also honest if the quality be kind but also honest if the quality be kind but also honest if the quality of the work isn't there? of the work isn't there? of the work isn't there? >> Well, I think there's a big difference >> Well, I think there's a big difference >> Well, I think there's a big difference between kind and nice. between kind and nice. between kind and nice. >> Okay, huge difference. When you're being >> Okay, huge difference. When you're being >> Okay, huge difference. When you're being kind, it means you really want the best kind, it means you really want the best kind, it means you really want the best for somebody, right? And sometimes that for somebody, right? And sometimes that for somebody, right? And sometimes that means a tough conversation. Sometimes means a tough conversation. Sometimes means a tough conversation. Sometimes that means this means saying we're just that means this means saying we're just that means this means saying we're just not there yet on this project we're not there yet on this project we're not there yet on this project we're working on or hey the way that you working on or hey the way that you working on or hey the way that you deliver that like really isn't working deliver that like really isn't working deliver that like really isn't working or whatever it is. Nice is about making or whatever it is. Nice is about making or whatever it is. Nice is about making people feel good right kind is about people feel good right kind is about people feel good right kind is about wanting the best for them. And so I wanting the best for them. And so I wanting the best for them. And so I think for us our culture is oriented think for us our culture is oriented think for us our culture is oriented around kindness which is a much deeper around kindness which is a much deeper around kindness which is a much deeper expression of care for somebody else and expression of care for somebody else and expression of care for somebody else and involves tough conversations. One of the involves tough conversations. One of the involves tough conversations. One of the great things about having a best friend great things about having a best friend great things about having a best friend or, you know, a a partner is that or, you know, a a partner is that or, you know, a a partner is that they're honest with you, right, about they're honest with you, right, about they're honest with you, right, about your shortcomings and help you evolve your shortcomings and help you evolve your shortcomings and help you evolve and make you better. And that comes from and make you better. And that comes from and make you better. And that comes from a place of love, right? And so I think a place of love, right? And so I think a place of love, right? And so I think kindness in in many ways is essential kindness in in many ways is essential kindness in in many ways is essential because it allows people to hear that because it allows people to hear that because it allows people to hear that feedback. So one of the big problems I feedback. So one of the big problems I feedback. So one of the big problems I think um you know in a more hostile work think um you know in a more hostile work think um you know in a more hostile work environment is people are more resistant environment is people are more resistant environment is people are more resistant to feedback because they don't hear it to feedback because they don't hear it to feedback because they don't hear it coming from that positive place of coming from that positive place of coming from that positive place of wanting you to grow and develop. And I wanting you to grow and develop. And I wanting you to grow and develop. And I think that expression of kindness for us think that expression of kindness for us think that expression of kindness for us is is one of the things that helps is is one of the things that helps is is one of the things that helps people grow fast, right? And ultimately people grow fast, right? And ultimately people grow fast, right? And ultimately at a company like Snap, our goal is just at a company like Snap, our goal is just at a company like Snap, our goal is just help people grow as fast as humanly help people grow as fast as humanly help people grow as fast as humanly possible. Um, you know, so that we can possible. Um, you know, so that we can possible. Um, you know, so that we can meet the needs of our customers and meet the needs of our customers and meet the needs of our customers and evolve our business, etc. evolve our business, etc. evolve our business, etc. >> Who plays that role for you? Who tells >> Who plays that role for you? Who tells >> Who plays that role for you? Who tells you the truth? you the truth? you the truth? >> My wife is uh brutally honest in a very >> My wife is uh brutally honest in a very >> My wife is uh brutally honest in a very loving way. uh in a very loving way and loving way. uh in a very loving way and loving way. uh in a very loving way and it's super important. But I also, you it's super important. But I also, you it's super important. But I also, you know, I I grew up with and one of the know, I I grew up with and one of the know, I I grew up with and one of the things I love about being in LA is a lot things I love about being in LA is a lot things I love about being in LA is a lot of my high school buddies are here, of my high school buddies are here, of my high school buddies are here, right? So I have friends who, you know, right? So I have friends who, you know, right? So I have friends who, you know, I've grown up with who've always been I've grown up with who've always been I've grown up with who've always been real with me and, you know, that's a real with me and, you know, that's a real with me and, you know, that's a huge benefit of being here in LA because huge benefit of being here in LA because huge benefit of being here in LA because when I get to hang out with my friends when I get to hang out with my friends when I get to hang out with my friends and talk to them about what I'm going and talk to them about what I'm going and talk to them about what I'm going through or what's going on, like I can through or what's going on, like I can through or what's going on, like I can count on them, you know, to to be count on them, you know, to to be count on them, you know, to to be honest. honest. honest. >> I think of like what Charlie Mer said. >> I think of like what Charlie Mer said. >> I think of like what Charlie Mer said. He says, "Anybody engaged in complex He says, "Anybody engaged in complex He says, "Anybody engaged in complex work," this is a paraphrase of his work," this is a paraphrase of his work," this is a paraphrase of his quote, "eo, anybody engaged in complex quote, "eo, anybody engaged in complex quote, "eo, anybody engaged in complex work, uh, it's very useful to find work, uh, it's very useful to find work, uh, it's very useful to find somebody to help organize your thoughts somebody to help organize your thoughts somebody to help organize your thoughts with." And I think he was referencing with." And I think he was referencing with." And I think he was referencing really, you know, the the role he played really, you know, the the role he played really, you know, the the role he played with Buffett, where, you know, Buffett with Buffett, where, you know, Buffett with Buffett, where, you know, Buffett was the main guy, obviously was the main guy, obviously was the main guy, obviously was 100 times richer than than Charlie, was 100 times richer than than Charlie, was 100 times richer than than Charlie, but Buffett knew that Munger was but Buffett knew that Munger was but Buffett knew that Munger was special, and he let Munger shape his special, and he let Munger shape his special, and he let Munger shape his mind. Do you have anybody like that? Not mind. Do you have anybody like that? Not mind. Do you have anybody like that? Not like a high school friends are like a high school friends are like a high school friends are different, like they were more like different, like they were more like different, like they were more like peers or have like an understanding. you peers or have like an understanding. you peers or have like an understanding. you have a very unique lived experience for have a very unique lived experience for have a very unique lived experience for somebody that's, you know, still in somebody that's, you know, still in somebody that's, you know, still in their mid30s. their mid30s. their mid30s. >> Yeah, I think, you know, Bobby, who's my >> Yeah, I think, you know, Bobby, who's my >> Yeah, I think, you know, Bobby, who's my co-founder, has really been that for me. co-founder, has really been that for me. co-founder, has really been that for me. Um, and I think we approach the world Um, and I think we approach the world Um, and I think we approach the world differently and see the world differently and see the world differently and see the world differently. So, I think that's really differently. So, I think that's really differently. So, I think that's really valuable. But, but I would say like I valuable. But, but I would say like I valuable. But, but I would say like I rely on our leadership team and and rely on our leadership team and and rely on our leadership team and and broadly our company to help me do that. broadly our company to help me do that. broadly our company to help me do that. I mean, that's that's the fun part about I mean, that's that's the fun part about I mean, that's that's the fun part about innovating is it's a dialogue, right? innovating is it's a dialogue, right? innovating is it's a dialogue, right? It's not like issuing command like let's It's not like issuing command like let's It's not like issuing command like let's go build this. It's like having a a real go build this. It's like having a a real go build this. It's like having a a real intense debate and dialogue about what's intense debate and dialogue about what's intense debate and dialogue about what's best for our customer and what we should best for our customer and what we should best for our customer and what we should do, what we should prioritize. So I do, what we should prioritize. So I do, what we should prioritize. So I think like for me it would be a real think like for me it would be a real think like for me it would be a real shame if I only got that from, you know, shame if I only got that from, you know, shame if I only got that from, you know, maybe if it was Charlie Munger, I'd feel maybe if it was Charlie Munger, I'd feel maybe if it was Charlie Munger, I'd feel differently, you know, but but I think differently, you know, but but I think differently, you know, but but I think for me what's so important is to make for me what's so important is to make for me what's so important is to make sure I'm getting that sort of feedback sure I'm getting that sort of feedback sure I'm getting that sort of feedback and having that kind of dialogue with and having that kind of dialogue with and having that kind of dialogue with lots of members of our team or or lots of members of our team or or lots of members of our team or or mentors as well. Um, you know, that mentors as well. Um, you know, that mentors as well. Um, you know, that that's that's a hugely valuable. that's that's a hugely valuable. that's that's a hugely valuable. >> What does the leadership team look like? >> What does the leadership team look like? >> What does the leadership team look like? You know, it's it's probably on on like You know, it's it's probably on on like You know, it's it's probably on on like the the Snapchat side, it's like roughly the the Snapchat side, it's like roughly the the Snapchat side, it's like roughly 10 10 or so people and like you know, 10 10 or so people and like you know, 10 10 or so people and like you know, it's it's funny even in the architecture it's it's funny even in the architecture it's it's funny even in the architecture of our building, right? Like we we have of our building, right? Like we we have of our building, right? Like we we have a circle table, right? Uh for a reason. a circle table, right? Uh for a reason. a circle table, right? Uh for a reason. I really like everyone to sit around a I really like everyone to sit around a I really like everyone to sit around a circle and have a dialogue where we're circle and have a dialogue where we're circle and have a dialogue where we're all talking from an equal position all talking from an equal position all talking from an equal position around that table, right? So like that around that table, right? So like that around that table, right? So like that like it's that sort of mentality where like it's that sort of mentality where like it's that sort of mentality where like everyone is expected to contribute, like everyone is expected to contribute, like everyone is expected to contribute, everyone has an equal seat around the everyone has an equal seat around the everyone has an equal seat around the table that you get that sort of really table that you get that sort of really table that you get that sort of really helpful dialogue. helpful dialogue. helpful dialogue. >> Are these people that started at Snap >> Are these people that started at Snap >> Are these people that started at Snap and like got through the ranks? Are they and like got through the ranks? Are they and like got through the ranks? Are they former founders? The reason I asked you former founders? The reason I asked you former founders? The reason I asked you is because one of the most interesting is because one of the most interesting is because one of the most interesting um ideas or surprising ideas I've had uh um ideas or surprising ideas I've had uh um ideas or surprising ideas I've had uh so far been having these conversations so far been having these conversations so far been having these conversations is I talked to Toby Luke the founder of is I talked to Toby Luke the founder of is I talked to Toby Luke the founder of Shopify which was like that that Shopify which was like that that Shopify which was like that that conversation blew my mind the way this conversation blew my mind the way this conversation blew my mind the way this guy thinks and he was going through a guy thinks and he was going through a guy thinks and he was going through a very difficult time and he didn't know very difficult time and he didn't know very difficult time and he didn't know what to do and he actually tells a story what to do and he actually tells a story what to do and he actually tells a story on the podcast I think where he's like on the podcast I think where he's like on the podcast I think where he's like he went to the Slack channel and they he went to the Slack channel and they he went to the Slack channel and they had like former founders and he's just had like former founders and he's just had like former founders and he's just like I need your help and he essentially like I need your help and he essentially like I need your help and he essentially built very much like Rockefeller did built very much like Rockefeller did built very much like Rockefeller did like built an the team around him is like built an the team around him is like built an the team around him is just founders. Is that what yours look just founders. Is that what yours look just founders. Is that what yours look like? Is it people that you po like like? Is it people that you po like like? Is it people that you po like poached from other companies? Like what poached from other companies? Like what poached from other companies? Like what what does this look like? what does this look like? what does this look like? >> I would say it's incredibly diverse set >> I would say it's incredibly diverse set >> I would say it's incredibly diverse set of backgrounds. Some folks are from of backgrounds. Some folks are from of backgrounds. Some folks are from other companies. Some folks, you know, other companies. Some folks, you know, other companies. Some folks, you know, have have spent their entire career at have have spent their entire career at have have spent their entire career at Snap, you know, more or less. Uh some, Snap, you know, more or less. Uh some, Snap, you know, more or less. Uh some, you know, some folks around the table you know, some folks around the table you know, some folks around the table are are founders, right, who have joined are are founders, right, who have joined are are founders, right, who have joined Snap. So, uh there there isn't like a Snap. So, uh there there isn't like a Snap. So, uh there there isn't like a one, you know, one-sizefits-all model. I one, you know, one-sizefits-all model. I one, you know, one-sizefits-all model. I think we're really fortunate to draw think we're really fortunate to draw think we're really fortunate to draw from lots of different backgrounds. from lots of different backgrounds. from lots of different backgrounds. >> Is there a lot of turnover? I would say >> Is there a lot of turnover? I would say >> Is there a lot of turnover? I would say at points in Snap's history, there has at points in Snap's history, there has at points in Snap's history, there has been a lot of turnover. Uh, not been a lot of turnover. Uh, not been a lot of turnover. Uh, not currently. I mean, knock on wood. Um, currently. I mean, knock on wood. Um, currently. I mean, knock on wood. Um, but the business changed so quickly, but the business changed so quickly, but the business changed so quickly, right? I mean, there were periods of right? I mean, there were periods of right? I mean, there were periods of time when we went from, you know, having time when we went from, you know, having time when we went from, you know, having a hundred people to over a thousand a hundred people to over a thousand a hundred people to over a thousand people in like 18 months, right? And people in like 18 months, right? And people in like 18 months, right? And like the skill sets that like we we were like the skill sets that like we we were like the skill sets that like we we were slow to build what we needed to support slow to build what we needed to support slow to build what we needed to support um, you know, that scale of a team. And um, you know, that scale of a team. And um, you know, that scale of a team. And back then there weren't the AI tools back then there weren't the AI tools back then there weren't the AI tools that are available today that make a lot that are available today that make a lot that are available today that make a lot of those things easier, right? um to of those things easier, right? um to of those things easier, right? um to operate at that at that scale and that operate at that at that scale and that operate at that at that scale and that quickly. But yeah, there are periods quickly. But yeah, there are periods quickly. But yeah, there are periods where the company has just changed a lot where the company has just changed a lot where the company has just changed a lot and it's required a different skill set. and it's required a different skill set. and it's required a different skill set. And during those periods of intense And during those periods of intense And during those periods of intense change, we have seen turnover. I mean change, we have seen turnover. I mean change, we have seen turnover. I mean sometimes intentional, sometimes sometimes intentional, sometimes sometimes intentional, sometimes unintentional because folks, you know, unintentional because folks, you know, unintentional because folks, you know, maybe are misaligned with where we're maybe are misaligned with where we're maybe are misaligned with where we're trying to take the company. trying to take the company. trying to take the company. >> Yeah. The reason I ask is because I >> Yeah. The reason I ask is because I >> Yeah. The reason I ask is because I think conversations like these, the think conversations like these, the think conversations like these, the other podcast founders podcast that I'm other podcast founders podcast that I'm other podcast founders podcast that I'm doing, I think it's important for doing, I think it's important for doing, I think it's important for entrepreneurs realize like there's not entrepreneurs realize like there's not entrepreneurs realize like there's not like one right way to do things. Toby like one right way to do things. Toby like one right way to do things. Toby told me he's like there's like there's told me he's like there's like there's told me he's like there's like there's probably a hundred right answers here. probably a hundred right answers here. probably a hundred right answers here. You got to do the one that's best for You got to do the one that's best for You got to do the one that's best for you. And so I'm just curious like do you you. And so I'm just curious like do you you. And so I'm just curious like do you have a philosophy on like turning over have a philosophy on like turning over have a philosophy on like turning over the the top people of the team? Because the the top people of the team? Because the the top people of the team? Because like if you look at like Larry Ellison, like if you look at like Larry Ellison, like if you look at like Larry Ellison, you read biographies at him. He thought you read biographies at him. He thought you read biographies at him. He thought the fact that he kept the core product the fact that he kept the core product the fact that he kept the core product team, the core product team on Oracle team, the core product team on Oracle team, the core product team on Oracle together for like multiple decades was a together for like multiple decades was a together for like multiple decades was a huge advantage. His person he mentors, huge advantage. His person he mentors, huge advantage. His person he mentors, if you ask Elon who he admires, he says if you ask Elon who he admires, he says if you ask Elon who he admires, he says Larry Ellison, he's like I want fresh Larry Ellison, he's like I want fresh Larry Ellison, he's like I want fresh blood, I think is the term over and over blood, I think is the term over and over blood, I think is the term over and over again. Do you have a an opinion here? again. Do you have a an opinion here? again. Do you have a an opinion here? >> I think it's different in different >> I think it's different in different >> I think it's different in different parts of the organization. You know, if parts of the organization. You know, if parts of the organization. You know, if you look at the core, like the core you look at the core, like the core you look at the core, like the core product and design team, that's a very product and design team, that's a very product and design team, that's a very small team. I mean, I think it's like small team. I mean, I think it's like small team. I mean, I think it's like currently like nine people. It usually currently like nine people. It usually currently like nine people. It usually fluctuates between like 8 and 12 people fluctuates between like 8 and 12 people fluctuates between like 8 and 12 people um at any given time. Many of the folks um at any given time. Many of the folks um at any given time. Many of the folks on that team have been at the company on that team have been at the company on that team have been at the company for an incredibly long period of time. for an incredibly long period of time. for an incredibly long period of time. And they usually join out of school like And they usually join out of school like And they usually join out of school like at right out of high school uh or sorry, at right out of high school uh or sorry, at right out of high school uh or sorry, right out of college. I don't think right out of college. I don't think right out of college. I don't think we've had we've had some interns, but no we've had we've had some interns, but no we've had we've had some interns, but no one joined right out out of high school. one joined right out out of high school. one joined right out out of high school. They typically join right out of They typically join right out of They typically join right out of college. And you know, we spend a huge college. And you know, we spend a huge college. And you know, we spend a huge amount of time investing in their growth amount of time investing in their growth amount of time investing in their growth and building things together and and so and building things together and and so and building things together and and so I think it's really important uh to have I think it's really important uh to have I think it's really important uh to have that you know longevity because those that you know longevity because those that you know longevity because those are folks who really understand how we are folks who really understand how we are folks who really understand how we build products uh at Snap and that's build products uh at Snap and that's build products uh at Snap and that's something that like I think really has something that like I think really has something that like I think really has to be learned. I I haven't found anyone to be learned. I I haven't found anyone to be learned. I I haven't found anyone who just been able to like enter Snap who just been able to like enter Snap who just been able to like enter Snap and you know uh and I mean certainly and you know uh and I mean certainly and you know uh and I mean certainly folks can contribute right away but it folks can contribute right away but it folks can contribute right away but it takes time to learn you know what makes takes time to learn you know what makes takes time to learn you know what makes Snap. Snap. Snap. >> Say say more about that. That's >> Say say more about that. That's >> Say say more about that. That's interesting. Why does it take so long? interesting. Why does it take so long? interesting. Why does it take so long? Because ultimately, like I think the way that we build products I think the way that we build products at Snapchat is just fundamentally at Snapchat is just fundamentally at Snapchat is just fundamentally different than anywhere else in the in different than anywhere else in the in different than anywhere else in the in the world. And so I've yet to see the world. And so I've yet to see the world. And so I've yet to see someone come into Snapchat with all the someone come into Snapchat with all the someone come into Snapchat with all the skills and all the understanding skills and all the understanding skills and all the understanding necessary to be able to like really necessary to be able to like really necessary to be able to like really deliver value in that role. The closest deliver value in that role. The closest deliver value in that role. The closest we come are probably folks out of art we come are probably folks out of art we come are probably folks out of art school because they're used to such a school because they're used to such a school because they're used to such a rapid iteration process and are used to rapid iteration process and are used to rapid iteration process and are used to making things in extremely high volume. making things in extremely high volume. making things in extremely high volume. And so they are a good fit for the the And so they are a good fit for the the And so they are a good fit for the the design culture at Snap, which is really design culture at Snap, which is really design culture at Snap, which is really about very rapid idea generation and about very rapid idea generation and about very rapid idea generation and creation. I mean, every week I'm with creation. I mean, every week I'm with creation. I mean, every week I'm with our design team for several hours and our design team for several hours and our design team for several hours and we're just looking at new work. I mean, we're just looking at new work. I mean, we're just looking at new work. I mean, new work every week, hundreds of ideas, new work every week, hundreds of ideas, new work every week, hundreds of ideas, right? Hundreds of concepts, you know, right? Hundreds of concepts, you know, right? Hundreds of concepts, you know, iteration, etc. and really going, you iteration, etc. and really going, you iteration, etc. and really going, you know, kind of together as a group know, kind of together as a group know, kind of together as a group working through like a critique process. working through like a critique process. working through like a critique process. And so I think um, you know, the art And so I think um, you know, the art And so I think um, you know, the art school folks are pro adapt the easiest school folks are pro adapt the easiest school folks are pro adapt the easiest to that culture because they're used to to that culture because they're used to to that culture because they're used to such a rapid velocity of work, but at such a rapid velocity of work, but at such a rapid velocity of work, but at the same time, we're really trying to the same time, we're really trying to the same time, we're really trying to overlay that deep empathy for people, overlay that deep empathy for people, overlay that deep empathy for people, right? That deep connection with how our right? That deep connection with how our right? That deep connection with how our community feels and what they're looking community feels and what they're looking community feels and what they're looking for. Um, you know, we're we're also for. Um, you know, we're we're also for. Um, you know, we're we're also trying to cultivate like trying to cultivate like trying to cultivate like a a very positive and fun uh environment a a very positive and fun uh environment a a very positive and fun uh environment around that. Like we're laughing half around that. Like we're laughing half around that. Like we're laughing half the time in these design meetings, the time in these design meetings, the time in these design meetings, right? And and playing around with right? And and playing around with right? And and playing around with ideas. And I think creativity can really ideas. And I think creativity can really ideas. And I think creativity can really thrive in that environment of like thrive in that environment of like thrive in that environment of like levity and fun. Um, and so I think that levity and fun. Um, and so I think that levity and fun. Um, and so I think that combination and that velocity of of combination and that velocity of of combination and that velocity of of creativity and product development is creativity and product development is creativity and product development is something that people have to adapt to something that people have to adapt to something that people have to adapt to typically when they come to Snapchat. typically when they come to Snapchat. typically when they come to Snapchat. Deal will help your business hire, pay Deal will help your business hire, pay Deal will help your business hire, pay and manage any worker anywhere in the and manage any worker anywhere in the and manage any worker anywhere in the world. Deal is the best company in the world. Deal is the best company in the world. Deal is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for world at building infrastructure for world at building infrastructure for global hiring. Deal is one platform for global hiring. 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If I was to sit in on one of these If I was to sit in on one of these design meetings, you said there's like design meetings, you said there's like design meetings, you said there's like nine to 10 12 people and you like what nine to 10 12 people and you like what nine to 10 12 people and you like what would I see? You would just be looking would I see? You would just be looking would I see? You would just be looking at a ton of work. I mean, we would just at a ton of work. I mean, we would just at a ton of work. I mean, we would just be talking through, you know, a huge be talking through, you know, a huge be talking through, you know, a huge volume of ideas across the service or volume of ideas across the service or volume of ideas across the service or maybe even ideas for new services and maybe even ideas for new services and maybe even ideas for new services and that sort of thing. Um, for a couple that sort of thing. Um, for a couple that sort of thing. Um, for a couple hours. hours. hours. >> These last a couple hours. They're going >> These last a couple hours. They're going >> These last a couple hours. They're going over when you say volume like can like over when you say volume like can like over when you say volume like can like hundreds of ideas. hundreds of ideas. hundreds of ideas. >> Yeah. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. >> In a few hours. Yeah. Yeah. >> In a few hours. Yeah. Yeah. >> In a few hours. Yeah. Yeah. >> And are you like leading this discussion >> And are you like leading this discussion >> And are you like leading this discussion like how like how like how >> Yeah. We're all but we're all >> Yeah. We're all but we're all >> Yeah. We're all but we're all contributing batting stuff around laugh contributing batting stuff around laugh contributing batting stuff around laugh you know what I mean laughing and you know what I mean laughing and you know what I mean laughing and iterating and you know iterating and you know iterating and you know >> why is the volume part so important >> why is the volume part so important >> why is the volume part so important >> because the best way to have a good idea >> because the best way to have a good idea >> because the best way to have a good idea is to have lots of ideas. It is critical is to have lots of ideas. It is critical is to have lots of ideas. It is critical and the most toxic thing you can have is and the most toxic thing you can have is and the most toxic thing you can have is people attached to attached to an idea people attached to attached to an idea people attached to attached to an idea instead of constantly thinking about instead of constantly thinking about instead of constantly thinking about like ideas are are free right there like ideas are are free right there like ideas are are free right there should be a zillion of them. And if we should be a zillion of them. And if we should be a zillion of them. And if we can do that and create that culture can do that and create that culture can do that and create that culture where there's like just a an endless where there's like just a an endless where there's like just a an endless flow of ideas, you're very lucky. You're flow of ideas, you're very lucky. You're flow of ideas, you're very lucky. You're you're you're much more likely to get you're you're much more likely to get you're you're much more likely to get lucky by by finding good ones. lucky by by finding good ones. lucky by by finding good ones. >> So how many of these >> So how many of these >> So how many of these do users of Snap ever see? Tiny tiny fra do users of Snap ever see? Tiny tiny fra do users of Snap ever see? Tiny tiny fra I mean less than 1% probably maybe 1%. I mean less than 1% probably maybe 1%. I mean less than 1% probably maybe 1%. And what's the process like comes up And what's the process like comes up And what's the process like comes up like how soon from come it comes an idea like how soon from come it comes an idea like how soon from come it comes an idea comes up in the meeting to you like it comes up in the meeting to you like it comes up in the meeting to you like it it gets in front of one of your users. it gets in front of one of your users. it gets in front of one of your users. >> Well now that's happening incredibly >> Well now that's happening incredibly >> Well now that's happening incredibly quickly because designers can ship code quickly because designers can ship code quickly because designers can ship code with you know all these new AI tools. So with you know all these new AI tools. So with you know all these new AI tools. So the whole world of design is changing I the whole world of design is changing I the whole world of design is changing I think very rapidly because now you know think very rapidly because now you know think very rapidly because now you know many of our designers are just empowered many of our designers are just empowered many of our designers are just empowered if if they've got something we think if if they've got something we think if if they've got something we think it's cool let's you know let's get it in it's cool let's you know let's get it in it's cool let's you know let's get it in the app and test it like immediately. So the app and test it like immediately. So the app and test it like immediately. So I think design to code is happening way I think design to code is happening way I think design to code is happening way faster than ever before. faster than ever before. faster than ever before. >> So there's an intense design culture at >> So there's an intense design culture at >> So there's an intense design culture at Snap. There always has been. You Snap. There always has been. You Snap. There always has been. You describe yourself as a designer. describe yourself as a designer. describe yourself as a designer. >> Yeah I think I mean that's my >> Yeah I think I mean that's my >> Yeah I think I mean that's my background. background. background. >> Yeah. And that's what you describe like >> Yeah. And that's what you describe like >> Yeah. And that's what you describe like when you started. That's right. And so when you started. That's right. And so when you started. That's right. And so talk a little bit about like what you talk a little bit about like what you talk a little bit about like what you think AI will do to a company like your think AI will do to a company like your think AI will do to a company like your yours where it seems to be like a design yours where it seems to be like a design yours where it seems to be like a design first culture. first culture. first culture. >> I think AI is like probably the best >> I think AI is like probably the best >> I think AI is like probably the best thing that's ever happened to to thing that's ever happened to to thing that's ever happened to to Snapchat, which is great. Um I think the Snapchat, which is great. Um I think the Snapchat, which is great. Um I think the reason why is because we've always had a reason why is because we've always had a reason why is because we've always had a ton of ideas and a deep connection with ton of ideas and a deep connection with ton of ideas and a deep connection with our community and our customer, but our community and our customer, but our community and our customer, but we've always had very limited resources we've always had very limited resources we've always had very limited resources and we're up against monopolistic and we're up against monopolistic and we're up against monopolistic companies. And so we've essentially been companies. And so we've essentially been companies. And so we've essentially been engaged in like trench warfare with engaged in like trench warfare with engaged in like trench warfare with monopolies for 15 years, right? And I monopolies for 15 years, right? And I monopolies for 15 years, right? And I think what's so funny like you know you think what's so funny like you know you think what's so funny like you know you look at the last 15 years we learned look at the last 15 years we learned look at the last 15 years we learned very very early on that there's no moat very very early on that there's no moat very very early on that there's no moat in software which was an incredibly in software which was an incredibly in software which was an incredibly powerful lesson right all of our ideas powerful lesson right all of our ideas powerful lesson right all of our ideas the things that we invent people just the things that we invent people just the things that we invent people just try to copy right away and it's easy to try to copy right away and it's easy to try to copy right away and it's easy to do that with software but what's do that with software but what's do that with software but what's fascinating about the world today is fascinating about the world today is fascinating about the world today is that it has never been easier right I that it has never been easier right I that it has never been easier right I mean almost instantly you can copy mean almost instantly you can copy mean almost instantly you can copy nearly any piece of software and so nearly any piece of software and so nearly any piece of software and so because we learned that lesson very because we learned that lesson very because we learned that lesson very early on we've evolved our business to early on we've evolved our business to early on we've evolved our business to really focus on the things that hard to really focus on the things that hard to really focus on the things that hard to copy, right? A network effects business copy, right? A network effects business copy, right? A network effects business of people communicating with one of people communicating with one of people communicating with one another. These platforms, right, like another. These platforms, right, like another. These platforms, right, like our augmented reality platform or our our augmented reality platform or our our augmented reality platform or our content ecosystem that are not just content ecosystem that are not just content ecosystem that are not just pieces of software that you can, you pieces of software that you can, you pieces of software that you can, you know, easily copy, but ecosystems of know, easily copy, but ecosystems of know, easily copy, but ecosystems of people communicating with one another or people communicating with one another or people communicating with one another or creators making content that people are creators making content that people are creators making content that people are watching or people building augmented watching or people building augmented watching or people building augmented reality experiences. All of those sorts reality experiences. All of those sorts reality experiences. All of those sorts of things are very hard to copy. So, of things are very hard to copy. So, of things are very hard to copy. So, from, you know, the over the last 15 from, you know, the over the last 15 from, you know, the over the last 15 years, we've really honed our business years, we've really honed our business years, we've really honed our business perspective for this moment, right? perspective for this moment, right? perspective for this moment, right? because we saw how easy it was to copy because we saw how easy it was to copy because we saw how easy it was to copy software. So in terms of our business software. So in terms of our business software. So in terms of our business and the way it meets our customers, I and the way it meets our customers, I and the way it meets our customers, I think we are well positioned uh for the think we are well positioned uh for the think we are well positioned uh for the huge transformation that's happening. At huge transformation that's happening. At huge transformation that's happening. At the same time, our core business is the same time, our core business is the same time, our core business is software development. So we're able to software development. So we're able to software development. So we're able to get a lot of the benefits of the get a lot of the benefits of the get a lot of the benefits of the extraordinary transformation in software extraordinary transformation in software extraordinary transformation in software development without the same risk to our development without the same risk to our development without the same risk to our core business because we build network core business because we build network core business because we build network effects over time and and uh you know effects over time and and uh you know effects over time and and uh you know thought about how to position ourselves thought about how to position ourselves thought about how to position ourselves um for for this uh this moment. So AI is um for for this uh this moment. So AI is um for for this uh this moment. So AI is changing every single team at Snap. It's changing every single team at Snap. It's changing every single team at Snap. It's changing the way that everything gets changing the way that everything gets changing the way that everything gets done at Snap. And because our core done at Snap. And because our core done at Snap. And because our core business is software development, I mean business is software development, I mean business is software development, I mean in the last three months, there's been in the last three months, there's been in the last three months, there's been profound change. But to imagine, I mean, profound change. But to imagine, I mean, profound change. But to imagine, I mean, 18 months from now, the way that Snap 18 months from now, the way that Snap 18 months from now, the way that Snap operates will be completely different operates will be completely different operates will be completely different than the way it operated last year. than the way it operated last year. than the way it operated last year. There's so many founders, and I don't There's so many founders, and I don't There's so many founders, and I don't know how many, almost none of them are know how many, almost none of them are know how many, almost none of them are saying this on the record that they tell saying this on the record that they tell saying this on the record that they tell me. They're like, I'm trying to figure me. They're like, I'm trying to figure me. They're like, I'm trying to figure out I should not be running my company out I should not be running my company out I should not be running my company anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to build AI to run my company. They are build AI to run my company. They are build AI to run my company. They are trying to literally replace themselves. trying to literally replace themselves. trying to literally replace themselves. They're like there it's just going to be They're like there it's just going to be They're like there it's just going to be so much better than I am at doing this. so much better than I am at doing this. so much better than I am at doing this. It should be doing this. I should not be It should be doing this. I should not be It should be doing this. I should not be doing this. doing this. doing this. >> I think that's certainly true in terms >> I think that's certainly true in terms >> I think that's certainly true in terms of like the operational lift, but at the of like the operational lift, but at the of like the operational lift, but at the same time, right, like that the vision same time, right, like that the vision same time, right, like that the vision and creativity and connection to your and creativity and connection to your and creativity and connection to your customer has never been more important. customer has never been more important. customer has never been more important. And so I think if anything it's going to And so I think if anything it's going to And so I think if anything it's going to enable founders to run teams that are enable founders to run teams that are enable founders to run teams that are much more operationally effective and much more operationally effective and much more operationally effective and require less of their time to operate require less of their time to operate require less of their time to operate the business and instead hopefully you the business and instead hopefully you the business and instead hopefully you know pivot more time towards that sort know pivot more time towards that sort know pivot more time towards that sort of creativity and ideation and you know of creativity and ideation and you know of creativity and ideation and you know meeting customers where they're at. meeting customers where they're at. meeting customers where they're at. >> What's one of the most surprising ways >> What's one of the most surprising ways >> What's one of the most surprising ways that AI has changed how Snap operates that AI has changed how Snap operates that AI has changed how Snap operates internally? I I don't necessarily think internally? I I don't necessarily think internally? I I don't necessarily think this is like a surprise per se, but I do this is like a surprise per se, but I do this is like a surprise per se, but I do think, you know, and I feel like this is think, you know, and I feel like this is think, you know, and I feel like this is old news because everyone in the world old news because everyone in the world old news because everyone in the world has been saying it, but like the change has been saying it, but like the change has been saying it, but like the change in how software is written since the in how software is written since the in how software is written since the beginning of this year is profound. our beginning of this year is profound. our beginning of this year is profound. our core business is writing software and core business is writing software and core business is writing software and now that these models are good enough to now that these models are good enough to now that these models are good enough to write you know more and more complex write you know more and more complex write you know more and more complex pieces of software on their own like the pieces of software on their own like the pieces of software on their own like the job of a software engineer at Snap is job of a software engineer at Snap is job of a software engineer at Snap is like profoundly and forever changed like profoundly and forever changed like profoundly and forever changed right and I think the more that we can right and I think the more that we can right and I think the more that we can embrace that and you know make that embrace that and you know make that embrace that and you know make that easier and teach people how to do that easier and teach people how to do that easier and teach people how to do that really effectively like it's just really effectively like it's just really effectively like it's just transformational for for our core transformational for for our core transformational for for our core business because as I mentioned like we business because as I mentioned like we business because as I mentioned like we have been up against companies who don't have been up against companies who don't have been up against companies who don't have new ideas but have infinite have new ideas but have infinite have new ideas but have infinite resources, right? And we've got lots of resources, right? And we've got lots of resources, right? And we've got lots of new ideas but no but very limited new ideas but no but very limited new ideas but no but very limited resources. And that's been a real resources. And that's been a real resources. And that's been a real challenge. And so it's been hard to see challenge. And so it's been hard to see challenge. And so it's been hard to see a path forward for Snap up against these a path forward for Snap up against these a path forward for Snap up against these giants without AI tools. And now with AI giants without AI tools. And now with AI giants without AI tools. And now with AI tools, you're like, "Wow, we basically tools, you're like, "Wow, we basically tools, you're like, "Wow, we basically have an infinite number of engineering have an infinite number of engineering have an infinite number of engineering resources." Like that's a pretty resources." Like that's a pretty resources." Like that's a pretty profound change for for Snap. And the profound change for for Snap. And the profound change for for Snap. And the rate at which that I I guess I would say rate at which that I I guess I would say rate at which that I I guess I would say the rate at which that has happened has the rate at which that has happened has the rate at which that has happened has surprised me. surprised me. surprised me. >> You said something very interesting. You >> You said something very interesting. You >> You said something very interesting. You said you realized a long time ago that said you realized a long time ago that said you realized a long time ago that software has no moat. The experience software has no moat. The experience software has no moat. The experience that taught you that lesson was it that taught you that lesson was it that taught you that lesson was it stories? stories? stories? >> No. The first time that that the the big >> No. The first time that that the the big >> No. The first time that that the the big sort of wakeup call was when uh you know sort of wakeup call was when uh you know sort of wakeup call was when uh you know Facebook at the time carbon copied Facebook at the time carbon copied Facebook at the time carbon copied Snapchat to make poke. Do you remember Snapchat to make poke. Do you remember Snapchat to make poke. Do you remember this? this? this? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And Mark Zuckerberg recorded like him >> And Mark Zuckerberg recorded like him >> And Mark Zuckerberg recorded like him saying the word poke as the notification saying the word poke as the notification saying the word poke as the notification sound. He was like so excited about this sound. He was like so excited about this sound. He was like so excited about this and we were like, "Wow." Like, "Okay, and we were like, "Wow." Like, "Okay, and we were like, "Wow." Like, "Okay, this is a good, you know, this is a this is a good, you know, this is a this is a good, you know, this is a really good lesson for us." Um, it it really good lesson for us." Um, it it really good lesson for us." Um, it it ended up being super helpful to to ended up being super helpful to to ended up being super helpful to to Snapchat. Snapchat. Snapchat. >> In the book, you call it the greatest >> In the book, you call it the greatest >> In the book, you call it the greatest Christmas present you ever received. Christmas present you ever received. Christmas present you ever received. >> The nervousness going into that holiday >> The nervousness going into that holiday >> The nervousness going into that holiday period, right? I mean, they literally period, right? I mean, they literally period, right? I mean, they literally put a download poke at the top of every put a download poke at the top of every put a download poke at the top of every single Facebook app, right? And it was single Facebook app, right? And it was single Facebook app, right? And it was it was just a clone of of Snapchat. And it was just a clone of of Snapchat. And it was just a clone of of Snapchat. And then to on, you know, on Christmas Day then to on, you know, on Christmas Day then to on, you know, on Christmas Day see Snapchat number one in the app store see Snapchat number one in the app store see Snapchat number one in the app store in that context was it was huge huge for in that context was it was huge huge for in that context was it was huge huge for us. Um, but that was that was the first us. Um, but that was that was the first us. Um, but that was that was the first time we realized like, okay, we're gonna time we realized like, okay, we're gonna time we realized like, okay, we're gonna have to be really smart about how we have to be really smart about how we have to be really smart about how we build this business and invest in the build this business and invest in the build this business and invest in the the things that are hard to copy. the things that are hard to copy. the things that are hard to copy. >> Do you remember how old you were when >> Do you remember how old you were when >> Do you remember how old you were when this was happening? this was happening? this was happening? >> When would that have been? That would >> When would that have been? That would >> When would that have been? That would have been have been have been 2012, 2013, so 22 probably. 2012, 2013, so 22 probably. 2012, 2013, so 22 probably. >> Super young. Super young to take on >> Super young. Super young to take on >> Super young. Super young to take on that's that had to be terrifying. I mean that's that had to be terrifying. I mean that's that had to be terrifying. I mean to be living in my dad's house with like to be living in my dad's house with like to be living in my dad's house with like three of my buddies from college you three of my buddies from college you three of my buddies from college you know and like this huge company you know know and like this huge company you know know and like this huge company you know set their sights on on us. I mean it you set their sights on on us. I mean it you set their sights on on us. I mean it you know it was definitely a formative know it was definitely a formative know it was definitely a formative experience I would say. So then experience I would say. So then experience I would say. So then realizing software has no moat is that realizing software has no moat is that realizing software has no moat is that direct insight leads to deciding direct insight leads to deciding direct insight leads to deciding bizarre decision I think correct in bizarre decision I think correct in bizarre decision I think correct in hindsight for a what people consider a hindsight for a what people consider a hindsight for a what people consider a social network app or a messaging app to social network app or a messaging app to social network app or a messaging app to get into hardware and make glasses. get into hardware and make glasses. get into hardware and make glasses. Those two things are related. Those two things are related. Those two things are related. >> Absolutely. And I think but even before >> Absolutely. And I think but even before >> Absolutely. And I think but even before that right a real focus on messaging. So that right a real focus on messaging. So that right a real focus on messaging. So the other key like the other key the other key like the other key the other key like the other key foundational insight of Snapchat um that foundational insight of Snapchat um that foundational insight of Snapchat um that really changed the company was at that really changed the company was at that really changed the company was at that time if you recall people were very time if you recall people were very time if you recall people were very focused on like a simp very simplistic focused on like a simp very simplistic focused on like a simp very simplistic model of network effects and their very model of network effects and their very model of network effects and their very simplistic model was basically the more simplistic model was basically the more simplistic model was basically the more nodes you have in the network the more nodes you have in the network the more nodes you have in the network the more valuable the network is right and what valuable the network is right and what valuable the network is right and what we realized was like that wasn't really we realized was like that wasn't really we realized was like that wasn't really true if you weren't using those network true if you weren't using those network true if you weren't using those network connections so actually you know what connections so actually you know what connections so actually you know what reflects the the value of the network is reflects the the value of the network is reflects the the value of the network is you know are the people that you you know are the people that you you know are the people that you actually talk to and communicate with actually talk to and communicate with actually talk to and communicate with especially the ones you communicate more especially the ones you communicate more especially the ones you communicate more frequently are they a part of your frequently are they a part of your frequently are they a part of your network and if they are then you can network and if they are then you can network and if they are then you can acrue the vast majority of the value in acrue the vast majority of the value in acrue the vast majority of the value in that network very very quickly without that network very very quickly without that network very very quickly without having the same scale or the same size having the same scale or the same size having the same scale or the same size right so what Snapchat showed was that right so what Snapchat showed was that right so what Snapchat showed was that if you just have one good friend on if you just have one good friend on if you just have one good friend on Snapchat right they they might represent Snapchat right they they might represent Snapchat right they they might represent half of your communication right because half of your communication right because half of your communication right because they're super important in your life so they're super important in your life so they're super important in your life so you don't need 500 friends on Snapchat you don't need 500 friends on Snapchat you don't need 500 friends on Snapchat you just need your best friend on you just need your best friend on you just need your best friend on Snapchat and And that's what helped the Snapchat and And that's what helped the Snapchat and And that's what helped the service really grow and take on, you service really grow and take on, you service really grow and take on, you know, these these much larger these know, these these much larger these know, these these much larger these larger competitors. What really prompted larger competitors. What really prompted larger competitors. What really prompted the the work on on glasses in the the the work on on glasses in the the the work on on glasses in the beginning was the feeling that we were beginning was the feeling that we were beginning was the feeling that we were always competing with that lock screen always competing with that lock screen always competing with that lock screen camera button, camera button, camera button, >> right? And so, do you know on the iPhone >> right? And so, do you know on the iPhone >> right? And so, do you know on the iPhone there's a lock screen camera button? So, there's a lock screen camera button? So, there's a lock screen camera button? So, Snapchat opens the camera, right? And we Snapchat opens the camera, right? And we Snapchat opens the camera, right? And we always want you to choose to open always want you to choose to open always want you to choose to open Snapchat to share a moment with your Snapchat to share a moment with your Snapchat to share a moment with your friends and your family. and you're friends and your family. and you're friends and your family. and you're making a choice between having to unlock making a choice between having to unlock making a choice between having to unlock your iPhone and go and open Snapchat and your iPhone and go and open Snapchat and your iPhone and go and open Snapchat and take a snap or just using that lock take a snap or just using that lock take a snap or just using that lock screen camera button. And that lock screen camera button. And that lock screen camera button. And that lock screen camera button is on your phone screen camera button is on your phone screen camera button is on your phone and it's in your pocket. And so, and it's in your pocket. And so, and it's in your pocket. And so, you know, when we were trying to you know, when we were trying to you know, when we were trying to reinvent the camera and change how reinvent the camera and change how reinvent the camera and change how people were using their camera to help people were using their camera to help people were using their camera to help them communicate, one of our fundamental them communicate, one of our fundamental them communicate, one of our fundamental questions was like, how do we get the questions was like, how do we get the questions was like, how do we get the camera out of your pocket right off your camera out of your pocket right off your camera out of your pocket right off your phone to make it easier for you to, you phone to make it easier for you to, you phone to make it easier for you to, you know, share and express yourself or know, share and express yourself or know, share and express yourself or communicate your point of view or communicate your point of view or communicate your point of view or communicate what you're doing? That was communicate what you're doing? That was communicate what you're doing? That was really the prompt that led us to explore really the prompt that led us to explore really the prompt that led us to explore glasses because back in the day the you glasses because back in the day the you glasses because back in the day the you know we just made camera glasses. But I know we just made camera glasses. But I know we just made camera glasses. But I think as part of that journey and as as think as part of that journey and as as think as part of that journey and as as part of starting to work on camera part of starting to work on camera part of starting to work on camera glasses, not only do we realize first of glasses, not only do we realize first of glasses, not only do we realize first of all that the market for camera glasses all that the market for camera glasses all that the market for camera glasses is very small, right? Uh that ultimately is very small, right? Uh that ultimately is very small, right? Uh that ultimately your phone is very good for taking your phone is very good for taking your phone is very good for taking photos. Even if you're on a jet ski or photos. Even if you're on a jet ski or photos. Even if you're on a jet ski or even if you're rock climbing, people even if you're rock climbing, people even if you're rock climbing, people still use their phone uh you know to to still use their phone uh you know to to still use their phone uh you know to to take a to take a photo. So that that you take a to take a photo. So that that you take a to take a photo. So that that you know meant that we had to push way know meant that we had to push way know meant that we had to push way harder and faster to our full vision uh harder and faster to our full vision uh harder and faster to our full vision uh for glasses. When did you learn the for glasses. When did you learn the for glasses. When did you learn the market was small? Because you couldn't market was small? Because you couldn't market was small? Because you couldn't even keep these things in stock. I told even keep these things in stock. I told even keep these things in stock. I told you I had to big ugly blue color. Like you I had to big ugly blue color. Like you I had to big ugly blue color. Like it was a fine color, but you know what I it was a fine color, but you know what I it was a fine color, but you know what I mean. mean. mean. >> Yeah. But I think even, you know, I >> Yeah. But I think even, you know, I >> Yeah. But I think even, you know, I think we were shipping like hundreds of think we were shipping like hundreds of think we were shipping like hundreds of thousands of of units. Um, you know, I thousands of of units. Um, you know, I thousands of of units. Um, you know, I think 100,000 units in hardware is kind think 100,000 units in hardware is kind think 100,000 units in hardware is kind of like the first threshold of like, of like the first threshold of like, of like the first threshold of like, okay, you've got a product people are okay, you've got a product people are okay, you've got a product people are interested in and and want to buy. But interested in and and want to buy. But interested in and and want to buy. But even at a couple hundred thousand units, even at a couple hundred thousand units, even at a couple hundred thousand units, I just didn't see a path to it being I just didn't see a path to it being I just didn't see a path to it being like a, you know, hundreds of millions like a, you know, hundreds of millions like a, you know, hundreds of millions of units because ultimately at the end of units because ultimately at the end of units because ultimately at the end of the day, the bar that we set for any of the day, the bar that we set for any of the day, the bar that we set for any product we develop is that it has to be product we develop is that it has to be product we develop is that it has to be 10 times better than the next best 10 times better than the next best 10 times better than the next best alternative. And when we looked at how alternative. And when we looked at how alternative. And when we looked at how people were using specs at the time, it people were using specs at the time, it people were using specs at the time, it just wasn't 10 times better than pulling just wasn't 10 times better than pulling just wasn't 10 times better than pulling your phone out of your pocket. uh you your phone out of your pocket. uh you your phone out of your pocket. uh you know and maybe in some use cases it was know and maybe in some use cases it was know and maybe in some use cases it was if you want really wanted to be if you want really wanted to be if you want really wanted to be hands-free or you know that kind of hands-free or you know that kind of hands-free or you know that kind of thing but but it just wasn't 10 times thing but but it just wasn't 10 times thing but but it just wasn't 10 times better than the amazing camera you had better than the amazing camera you had better than the amazing camera you had on on your phone. And so we really then on on your phone. And so we really then on on your phone. And so we really then set out to try to push towards as fast set out to try to push towards as fast set out to try to push towards as fast as we could our our true vision for as we could our our true vision for as we could our our true vision for computing. You know computing. You know computing. You know >> that was how many years ago when you >> that was how many years ago when you >> that was how many years ago when you started? started? started? >> That would have been 20 >> That would have been 20 >> That would have been 20 by 2016 2017 we were really pressing by 2016 2017 we were really pressing by 2016 2017 we were really pressing into you know the the more advanced into you know the the more advanced into you know the the more advanced parts of of augmented reality glasses. parts of of augmented reality glasses. parts of of augmented reality glasses. And I think, you know, if you look at And I think, you know, if you look at And I think, you know, if you look at the step-by-step approach we took, the the step-by-step approach we took, the the step-by-step approach we took, the first generation had one camera, right? first generation had one camera, right? first generation had one camera, right? The second generation had two cameras The second generation had two cameras The second generation had two cameras with depth. The generation after that with depth. The generation after that with depth. The generation after that added a display. The generation after added a display. The generation after added a display. The generation after that added an operating system and that added an operating system and that added an operating system and developer platform. That's the version developer platform. That's the version developer platform. That's the version that's currently in the that's currently in the that's currently in the >> What's the generation I used yesterday? >> What's the generation I used yesterday? >> What's the generation I used yesterday? >> That came out in 2024. >> That came out in 2024. >> That came out in 2024. >> That's generation four or five. >> That's generation four or five. >> That's generation four or five. >> Four or five. Yeah. Um and that was the >> Four or five. Yeah. Um and that was the >> Four or five. Yeah. Um and that was the first time we really offered a developer first time we really offered a developer first time we really offered a developer platform um so that folks could start platform um so that folks could start platform um so that folks could start building and creating all these building and creating all these building and creating all these experiences. experiences. experiences. >> Okay. So, can you explain your evolution >> Okay. So, can you explain your evolution >> Okay. So, can you explain your evolution of glasses? You said basically you don't of glasses? You said basically you don't of glasses? You said basically you don't think it was glasses, it's just another think it was glasses, it's just another think it was glasses, it's just another form of computing. form of computing. form of computing. >> So to to go all the way back, the the >> So to to go all the way back, the the >> So to to go all the way back, the the initial thesis was let's get the camera initial thesis was let's get the camera initial thesis was let's get the camera out of your pocket, right? But at the out of your pocket, right? But at the out of your pocket, right? But at the same time, you know, on the phone, we same time, you know, on the phone, we same time, you know, on the phone, we were so constrained in what we could were so constrained in what we could were so constrained in what we could build, right? I mean, you have this tiny build, right? I mean, you have this tiny build, right? I mean, you have this tiny little screen. We're watching augmented little screen. We're watching augmented little screen. We're watching augmented reality just take off on the phone. reality just take off on the phone. reality just take off on the phone. Hundreds of millions of people every day Hundreds of millions of people every day Hundreds of millions of people every day are using these augmented reality are using these augmented reality are using these augmented reality experiences on this tiny little screen. experiences on this tiny little screen. experiences on this tiny little screen. Let's pause real quick there because Let's pause real quick there because Let's pause real quick there because this is another I think example of what this is another I think example of what this is another I think example of what I was trying to freaking figure out I was trying to freaking figure out I was trying to freaking figure out about you earlier and I kind of went about you earlier and I kind of went about you earlier and I kind of went crazy. So crazy. So crazy. So >> we still haven't figured it out. >> we still haven't figured it out. >> we still haven't figured it out. >> I know it might take a few more >> I know it might take a few more >> I know it might take a few more conversations. Uh you're talking about conversations. Uh you're talking about conversations. Uh you're talking about all these people using augmented all these people using augmented all these people using augmented reality. They're in you're talking about reality. They're in you're talking about reality. They're in you're talking about the filters you added or the lenses and the filters you added or the lenses and the filters you added or the lenses and stuff to Snapchat. stuff to Snapchat. stuff to Snapchat. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Did you get that idea from another >> Did you get that idea from another >> Did you get that idea from another company? Where'd that come from? Were company? Where'd that come from? Were company? Where'd that come from? Were you the first one? bought a startup you the first one? bought a startup you the first one? bought a startup called Luxury that was working on those called Luxury that was working on those called Luxury that was working on those uh working on those lenses and then uh working on those lenses and then uh working on those lenses and then Bobby really pushed the vision of Bobby really pushed the vision of Bobby really pushed the vision of turning that into a platform and once we turning that into a platform and once we turning that into a platform and once we turned it into a platform and built turned it into a platform and built turned it into a platform and built these developer tools called lens studio these developer tools called lens studio these developer tools called lens studio so that anyone could build lenses then so that anyone could build lenses then so that anyone could build lenses then it just took off because it just took off because it just took off because >> that's what got me using Snapchat >> that's what got me using Snapchat >> that's what got me using Snapchat because it was a little older than like because it was a little older than like because it was a little older than like your the typical people using it. But your the typical people using it. But your the typical people using it. But did this launch after stories? did this launch after stories? did this launch after stories? >> That must have launched after stories. >> That must have launched after stories. >> That must have launched after stories. Yeah. How many years into Snap do you Yeah. How many years into Snap do you Yeah. How many years into Snap do you think that you've added this other think that you've added this other think that you've added this other feature? feature? feature? >> Probably three or four years only. >> Probably three or four years only. >> Probably three or four years only. >> Oh, that's actually way sooner than I >> Oh, that's actually way sooner than I >> Oh, that's actually way sooner than I thought. Way sooner than I thought thought. Way sooner than I thought thought. Way sooner than I thought because you've been working on Snapchat because you've been working on Snapchat because you've been working on Snapchat for how long? 15 for how long? 15 for how long? 15 >> about 15 years. 15 years. >> about 15 years. 15 years. >> about 15 years. 15 years. >> Okay. So, go back to what you were >> Okay. So, go back to what you were >> Okay. So, go back to what you were saying. Then you found hundreds of saying. Then you found hundreds of saying. Then you found hundreds of thousands or millions of people now thousands or millions of people now thousands or millions of people now using using using >> hundreds of millions of people now. >> hundreds of millions of people now. >> hundreds of millions of people now. >> Like every day. >> Like every day. >> Like every day. >> But back then, this is they're engaging >> But back then, this is they're engaging >> But back then, this is they're engaging with AR through this feature. But this with AR through this feature. But this with AR through this feature. But this is before you did the the glasses. is before you did the the glasses. is before you did the the glasses. >> Yeah, sort of concurrent with the sort >> Yeah, sort of concurrent with the sort >> Yeah, sort of concurrent with the sort of concurrent with the the glasses and of concurrent with the the glasses and of concurrent with the the glasses and and may maybe concurrent with the second and may maybe concurrent with the second and may maybe concurrent with the second generation, I want to say, by the time generation, I want to say, by the time generation, I want to say, by the time we really had an augmented reality uh we really had an augmented reality uh we really had an augmented reality uh platform, but you know, the the original platform, but you know, the the original platform, but you know, the the original thesis behind creating lenses was just thesis behind creating lenses was just thesis behind creating lenses was just people a lot of people thought it was people a lot of people thought it was people a lot of people thought it was weird to just take a selfie, right? Tons weird to just take a selfie, right? Tons weird to just take a selfie, right? Tons of folks were taking selfies to express of folks were taking selfies to express of folks were taking selfies to express themselves, but like a lot of people themselves, but like a lot of people themselves, but like a lot of people were like, "Why would I just take ugly? were like, "Why would I just take ugly? were like, "Why would I just take ugly? >> I don't want to be reminded what I look >> I don't want to be reminded what I look >> I don't want to be reminded what I look like. like. like. Well, could put some dog ears on Well, could put some dog ears on Well, could put some dog ears on everything. So, so you know, or vomit a everything. So, so you know, or vomit a everything. So, so you know, or vomit a rainbow, right? So, people people had a rainbow, right? So, people people had a rainbow, right? So, people people had a reason to reason to reason to >> I was covering people in flowers. It's >> I was covering people in flowers. It's >> I was covering people in flowers. It's fun. fun. fun. >> So, I think um I think lenses really >> So, I think um I think lenses really >> So, I think um I think lenses really gave people a reason to express gave people a reason to express gave people a reason to express themselves and and to share with their themselves and and to share with their themselves and and to share with their friends. Uh but then, you know, after we friends. Uh but then, you know, after we friends. Uh but then, you know, after we built out the lens studio developer built out the lens studio developer built out the lens studio developer tools and this kind of thing, uh the tools and this kind of thing, uh the tools and this kind of thing, uh the platform just exploded. Now, you know, platform just exploded. Now, you know, platform just exploded. Now, you know, people have made millions of lenses, all people have made millions of lenses, all people have made millions of lenses, all sorts of different ways for people to sorts of different ways for people to sorts of different ways for people to express themselves. not only with express themselves. not only with express themselves. not only with selfies but also lenses that change the selfies but also lenses that change the selfies but also lenses that change the world as you experienced. And and we world as you experienced. And and we world as you experienced. And and we just found that people were incredibly just found that people were incredibly just found that people were incredibly constrained by this tiny little constrained by this tiny little constrained by this tiny little smartphone screen and needing to use smartphone screen and needing to use smartphone screen and needing to use their thumbs to interact with augmented their thumbs to interact with augmented their thumbs to interact with augmented reality. And it was so clear that we reality. And it was so clear that we reality. And it was so clear that we needed to embed it in the world for it needed to embed it in the world for it needed to embed it in the world for it to be successful. And we were going to to be successful. And we were going to to be successful. And we were going to need to create the device uh to do that need to create the device uh to do that need to create the device uh to do that um because no device even came close to um because no device even came close to um because no device even came close to the vision that we had. So we've really the vision that we had. So we've really the vision that we had. So we've really just pushed over the last decade to to just pushed over the last decade to to just pushed over the last decade to to make that vision possible. And then make that vision possible. And then make that vision possible. And then later this year, you know, we're later this year, you know, we're later this year, you know, we're launching the first consumer version, launching the first consumer version, launching the first consumer version, which will be, you know, a big a big which will be, you know, a big a big which will be, you know, a big a big step for us. step for us. step for us. >> One of my all-time favorite quotes is >> One of my all-time favorite quotes is >> One of my all-time favorite quotes is from the book 0ero to1. It says, "The from the book 0ero to1. It says, "The from the book 0ero to1. It says, "The single most powerful pattern I have single most powerful pattern I have single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find noticed is that successful people find noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places. And they do value in unexpected places. And they do value in unexpected places. And they do this by thinking about business from this by thinking about business from this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas." first principles instead of formulas." first principles instead of formulas." This is exactly what Apploven has done This is exactly what Apploven has done This is exactly what Apploven has done with their new advertising platform, with their new advertising platform, with their new advertising platform, Axon. Axon is the most powerful Axon. Axon is the most powerful Axon. Axon is the most powerful advertising platform in a generation. advertising platform in a generation. advertising platform in a generation. Axon allows you to capture undivided Axon allows you to capture undivided Axon allows you to capture undivided attention. Axon ads are full screen attention. Axon ads are full screen attention. Axon ads are full screen videos that are watched for an average videos that are watched for an average videos that are watched for an average of 35 seconds. Retention that blows of 35 seconds. Retention that blows of 35 seconds. Retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water and other ad platforms out of the water and other ad platforms out of the water and you can launch in minutes. You set the you can launch in minutes. You set the you can launch in minutes. You set the goal and Axon achieves it. No complex goal and Axon achieves it. No complex goal and Axon achieves it. No complex setup, no expertise needed. And Axon setup, no expertise needed. And Axon setup, no expertise needed. And Axon scales quickly. They can put your ads in scales quickly. They can put your ads in scales quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential front of over a billion potential front of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen customers. Other businesses have seen customers. Other businesses have seen immediate results, scaled to hundreds of immediate results, scaled to hundreds of immediate results, scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day thousands of dollars of spend per day thousands of dollars of spend per day and increased their revenue by millions. and increased their revenue by millions. and increased their revenue by millions. And most advertisers aren't even And most advertisers aren't even And most advertisers aren't even thinking about this channel yet. Less thinking about this channel yet. Less thinking about this channel yet. Less than 1% of advertisers have access to than 1% of advertisers have access to than 1% of advertisers have access to Axon. So you want to get started quickly Axon. So you want to get started quickly Axon. So you want to get started quickly and you can do that by going to and you can do that by going to and you can do that by going to axon.ai/enra. That is axon.ai That is axon.ai senra. You use the word vision. When we senra. You use the word vision. When we senra. You use the word vision. When we were talking before we started were talking before we started were talking before we started recording, I think this is interesting. recording, I think this is interesting. recording, I think this is interesting. You literally see it, see what you want. You literally see it, see what you want. You literally see it, see what you want. You said like you have a problem You said like you have a problem You said like you have a problem designing a product if you can't see it designing a product if you can't see it designing a product if you can't see it in your mind. Can you explain more about in your mind. Can you explain more about in your mind. Can you explain more about that? that? that? >> Yeah, I think in general >> Yeah, I think in general >> Yeah, I think in general with my life thus far like I like with with my life thus far like I like with with my life thus far like I like with the things that we build I see them very the things that we build I see them very the things that we build I see them very very clearly even before we've built very clearly even before we've built very clearly even before we've built them. And I kind of know what I want. I them. And I kind of know what I want. I them. And I kind of know what I want. I know how I want it to to work. And I know how I want it to to work. And I know how I want it to to work. And I also know that if I can't see it, then also know that if I can't see it, then also know that if I can't see it, then we're we're off we're off track. And so we're we're off we're off track. And so we're we're off we're off track. And so I think really trying to stay true to I think really trying to stay true to I think really trying to stay true to that that feeling and that vision and that that feeling and that vision and that that feeling and that vision and that focus is just so so important. And that focus is just so so important. And that focus is just so so important. And that doesn't mean not being like open to that doesn't mean not being like open to that doesn't mean not being like open to other people's ideas, other people's other people's ideas, other people's other people's ideas, other people's creativity, etc. But like I think, you creativity, etc. But like I think, you creativity, etc. But like I think, you know, um yeah, I just very very vividly know, um yeah, I just very very vividly know, um yeah, I just very very vividly can see what we're what we're trying to can see what we're what we're trying to can see what we're what we're trying to create. create. create. >> I'm going to explain or describe an >> I'm going to explain or describe an >> I'm going to explain or describe an experience that I read about. You tell experience that I read about. You tell experience that I read about. You tell me if it's similar to the one that that me if it's similar to the one that that me if it's similar to the one that that you experienced where uh when that you experienced where uh when that you experienced where uh when that legendary meeting that happened when legendary meeting that happened when legendary meeting that happened when Edin Land 70, Steve Job is 25, they're Edin Land 70, Steve Job is 25, they're Edin Land 70, Steve Job is 25, they're sitting across they're in a conference sitting across they're in a conference sitting across they're in a conference room sitting across a table from one room sitting across a table from one room sitting across a table from one another and they talked about they're another and they talked about they're another and they talked about they're like they don't really consider like they don't really consider like they don't really consider themselves inventors. It's kind of funny themselves inventors. It's kind of funny themselves inventors. It's kind of funny cuz Edin Land had the third most patents cuz Edin Land had the third most patents cuz Edin Land had the third most patents you know in human history. They said you know in human history. They said you know in human history. They said they they discovered products that they they they discovered products that they they they discovered products that they would literally be looking at an empty would literally be looking at an empty would literally be looking at an empty table and see the final form of what table and see the final form of what table and see the final form of what they're doing and then they reverse they're doing and then they reverse they're doing and then they reverse engineer from that and essentially or uh engineer from that and essentially or uh engineer from that and essentially or uh you know pro their entire organization you know pro their entire organization you know pro their entire organization to invent the technology to invent the to invent the technology to invent the to invent the technology to invent the product. Is that the similar experience product. Is that the similar experience product. Is that the similar experience you're having? you're having? you're having? >> I really really like that because I >> I really really like that because I >> I really really like that because I think what they're describing is think what they're describing is think what they're describing is technology in service of a product technology in service of a product technology in service of a product vision. So instead of chasing a vision. So instead of chasing a vision. So instead of chasing a technology, being crystal clear about technology, being crystal clear about technology, being crystal clear about what you're trying to create and then what you're trying to create and then what you're trying to create and then organizing everyone to invent everything organizing everyone to invent everything organizing everyone to invent everything needed to to create that uh to create needed to to create that uh to create needed to to create that uh to create that product. So yeah, I mean that product. So yeah, I mean that product. So yeah, I mean yeah. Yes, I guess. Yeah. Is that not yeah. Yes, I guess. Yeah. Is that not yeah. Yes, I guess. Yeah. Is that not what you've been doing the last decade what you've been doing the last decade what you've been doing the last decade for with the the glasses cuz you made a for with the the glasses cuz you made a for with the the glasses cuz you made a choice. You're like other people are choice. You're like other people are choice. You're like other people are partnering with existing companies like partnering with existing companies like partnering with existing companies like Lexodica who I think is a very Lexodica who I think is a very Lexodica who I think is a very fascinating story. I told you before I fascinating story. I told you before I fascinating story. I told you before I did this crazy episode of Founders did this crazy episode of Founders did this crazy episode of Founders Podcast. I think it's episode 394 on Podcast. I think it's episode 394 on Podcast. I think it's episode 394 on Leonardo Dio which is just one of the Leonardo Dio which is just one of the Leonardo Dio which is just one of the he's an orphan and he built one of the he's an orphan and he built one of the he's an orphan and he built one of the most you know to this day most powerful most you know to this day most powerful most you know to this day most powerful and like such a dominating uh companies and like such a dominating uh companies and like such a dominating uh companies in his industry but you chose not to do in his industry but you chose not to do in his industry but you chose not to do that. that. that. >> There's a lot of reasons why I don't >> There's a lot of reasons why I don't >> There's a lot of reasons why I don't think that's the right think that's the right think that's the right >> let's go into them. We we don't have an >> let's go into them. We we don't have an >> let's go into them. We we don't have an end here. end here. end here. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> as much as you can share that you know >> as much as you can share that you know >> as much as you can share that you know but I'm very interested in your but I'm very interested in your but I'm very interested in your philosophy behind the decisions you're philosophy behind the decisions you're philosophy behind the decisions you're making is what I'm trying to get to. I making is what I'm trying to get to. I making is what I'm trying to get to. I think there's like a number of of think there's like a number of of think there's like a number of of challenges. Obviously, I think it's much challenges. Obviously, I think it's much challenges. Obviously, I think it's much more harmful for Luxotica than it is for more harmful for Luxotica than it is for more harmful for Luxotica than it is for for Meta. I think Meta needed to partner for Meta. I think Meta needed to partner for Meta. I think Meta needed to partner with Lxotica because the Meta brand, I with Lxotica because the Meta brand, I with Lxotica because the Meta brand, I think, is not something that people want think, is not something that people want think, is not something that people want to put anywhere near their face. So, I to put anywhere near their face. So, I to put anywhere near their face. So, I think um I think that Meta really needed think um I think that Meta really needed think um I think that Meta really needed I think what's what's challenging for I think what's what's challenging for I think what's what's challenging for Lxotica is they took like the most Lxotica is they took like the most Lxotica is they took like the most iconic crazy high margin product and iconic crazy high margin product and iconic crazy high margin product and they destroyed the margin and then they they destroyed the margin and then they they destroyed the margin and then they associated it with Meta. So like I think associated it with Meta. So like I think associated it with Meta. So like I think like that like we'll see if that pans like that like we'll see if that pans like that like we'll see if that pans out over like a longer period of time if out over like a longer period of time if out over like a longer period of time if that was the right brand choice uh for that was the right brand choice uh for that was the right brand choice uh for them. But I can definitely see why Meta them. But I can definitely see why Meta them. But I can definitely see why Meta needed needs to camouflage their brand needed needs to camouflage their brand needed needs to camouflage their brand which I think a lot of people don't which I think a lot of people don't which I think a lot of people don't resonate with and don't like with you resonate with and don't like with you resonate with and don't like with you know the Ray-B band uh brand. But I know the Ray-B band uh brand. But I know the Ray-B band uh brand. But I think people are misreading, I think, think people are misreading, I think, think people are misreading, I think, the dynamic of of what's happening when the dynamic of of what's happening when the dynamic of of what's happening when you have meta ray bands on the shelf you have meta ray bands on the shelf you have meta ray bands on the shelf next to a regular pair of Ray-B bands next to a regular pair of Ray-B bands next to a regular pair of Ray-B bands and they're both about the same price, and they're both about the same price, and they're both about the same price, right? And it's, you know, I love to right? And it's, you know, I love to right? And it's, you know, I love to just walk into a sunglass hut or just walk into a sunglass hut or just walk into a sunglass hut or whatever and talk to them. Hey, what's whatever and talk to them. Hey, what's whatever and talk to them. Hey, what's going on? What's selling? What's not? going on? What's selling? What's not? going on? What's selling? What's not? It's like, well, you can get the Meta It's like, well, you can get the Meta It's like, well, you can get the Meta Ray-B bands that have a camera for about Ray-B bands that have a camera for about Ray-B bands that have a camera for about the same price as the RA regular Ray-B the same price as the RA regular Ray-B the same price as the RA regular Ray-B bands. Why don't you, you know, try it bands. Why don't you, you know, try it bands. Why don't you, you know, try it out for your upcoming vacation? I think out for your upcoming vacation? I think out for your upcoming vacation? I think that that's a smart strategy if you want that that's a smart strategy if you want that that's a smart strategy if you want to move a lot of volume. But I don't to move a lot of volume. But I don't to move a lot of volume. But I don't know if that builds a durable business know if that builds a durable business know if that builds a durable business over time. And the reason why I don't over time. And the reason why I don't over time. And the reason why I don't know if that builds a durable business know if that builds a durable business know if that builds a durable business over time is if I look at successful over time is if I look at successful over time is if I look at successful hardware companies over a long period of hardware companies over a long period of hardware companies over a long period of time, we can look at Apple, we could time, we can look at Apple, we could time, we can look at Apple, we could talk about Tesla for example, early talk about Tesla for example, early talk about Tesla for example, early adopter is the wrong term, but they adopter is the wrong term, but they adopter is the wrong term, but they really try to start with really try to start with really try to start with premium or even luxury positioning premium or even luxury positioning premium or even luxury positioning around a very passionate early adopter around a very passionate early adopter around a very passionate early adopter group that believes in their vision, group that believes in their vision, group that believes in their vision, right? Think like the Tesla Roadster, right? Think like the Tesla Roadster, right? Think like the Tesla Roadster, right? Or the early iMac or the early right? Or the early iMac or the early right? Or the early iMac or the early iPhone. And they build a brand by iPhone. And they build a brand by iPhone. And they build a brand by starting with those early enthusiasts starting with those early enthusiasts starting with those early enthusiasts who like believe right in the who like believe right in the who like believe right in the electrification of the world, the electrification of the world, the electrification of the world, the transformation of the power uh you know transformation of the power uh you know transformation of the power uh you know the power grid, how we're going to you the power grid, how we're going to you the power grid, how we're going to you know move things around or in the case know move things around or in the case know move things around or in the case of Apple you know a revolution in the of Apple you know a revolution in the of Apple you know a revolution in the personal computer right that everyone's personal computer right that everyone's personal computer right that everyone's been doing phones wrong and that like been doing phones wrong and that like been doing phones wrong and that like you know having this uh you know you know having this uh you know you know having this uh you know personal computer in your pocket you personal computer in your pocket you personal computer in your pocket you know would be really transformational know would be really transformational know would be really transformational and they really activate that that and they really activate that that and they really activate that that passionate group of enthusiasts and then passionate group of enthusiasts and then passionate group of enthusiasts and then over time they work with that really over time they work with that really over time they work with that really passionate group of enthusiasts to you passionate group of enthusiasts to you passionate group of enthusiasts to you know grow into the mass market while know grow into the mass market while know grow into the mass market while preserving their premium positioning preserving their premium positioning preserving their premium positioning which means high gross margins then they which means high gross margins then they which means high gross margins then they take those high gross margins and they take those high gross margins and they take those high gross margins and they reinvest in R&D which widens their lead reinvest in R&D which widens their lead reinvest in R&D which widens their lead and like that is the story I think of and like that is the story I think of and like that is the story I think of successful hardware companies and I successful hardware companies and I successful hardware companies and I think it's very very hard to start with think it's very very hard to start with think it's very very hard to start with a super broad-based low margin consumer a super broad-based low margin consumer a super broad-based low margin consumer product and try to work your way into product and try to work your way into product and try to work your way into premium uh positioning. So I think if premium uh positioning. So I think if premium uh positioning. So I think if you look at at specs and like what we've you look at at specs and like what we've you look at at specs and like what we've tried to do even like your early tried to do even like your early tried to do even like your early experiences with the with the brand experiences with the with the brand experiences with the with the brand right we're innovative and different and right we're innovative and different and right we're innovative and different and again oriented around a a group of again oriented around a a group of again oriented around a a group of enthusiasts and early adopters who like enthusiasts and early adopters who like enthusiasts and early adopters who like want to see the world differently who want to see the world differently who want to see the world differently who want to participate in the cutting edge want to participate in the cutting edge want to participate in the cutting edge of technology and I think if we're able of technology and I think if we're able of technology and I think if we're able to build the brand that way and build to build the brand that way and build to build the brand that way and build our own brand around that that will our own brand around that that will our own brand around that that will allow us to sustain you know our our allow us to sustain you know our our allow us to sustain you know our our margins over time which will allow us to margins over time which will allow us to margins over time which will allow us to reinvest which ultimately will give us a reinvest which ultimately will give us a reinvest which ultimately will give us a big competitive advantage. I want to go big competitive advantage. I want to go big competitive advantage. I want to go back to wanting to control most of like back to wanting to control most of like back to wanting to control most of like actually building your own hardware. Um actually building your own hardware. Um actually building your own hardware. Um the you said something even the the you said something even the the you said something even the marketing though I I think like you got marketing though I I think like you got marketing though I I think like you got to give you credit to the marketing you to give you credit to the marketing you to give you credit to the marketing you guys were doing back in the day from the guys were doing back in the day from the guys were doing back in the day from the first spectacles where like there wasn't first spectacles where like there wasn't first spectacles where like there wasn't like a store you could just walk into. like a store you could just walk into. like a store you could just walk into. It's not the the experience you It's not the the experience you It's not the the experience you described. It's like you would like described. It's like you would like described. It's like you would like airdrop these vending machines and then airdrop these vending machines and then airdrop these vending machines and then I remember there's like a website and I remember there's like a website and I remember there's like a website and I'm not a [ __ ] power user of I'm not a [ __ ] power user of I'm not a [ __ ] power user of Snapchat. I was just like, I want these Snapchat. I was just like, I want these Snapchat. I was just like, I want these glasses. And I would be like refreshing glasses. And I would be like refreshing glasses. And I would be like refreshing the the the website to figure out it's the the the website to figure out it's the the the website to figure out it's like, oh, okay, here's a new drop. And like, oh, okay, here's a new drop. And like, oh, okay, here's a new drop. And you'd have like a countdown like we're you'd have like a countdown like we're you'd have like a countdown like we're it's dropping. And you wouldn't say it's dropping. And you wouldn't say it's dropping. And you wouldn't say where it is. And I'm in like Miami at where it is. And I'm in like Miami at where it is. And I'm in like Miami at the time. It's like, all right, it's the time. It's like, all right, it's the time. It's like, all right, it's dropping in Venice. I'm like, god damn dropping in Venice. I'm like, god damn dropping in Venice. I'm like, god damn it. And then I wind up the way I got it. And then I wind up the way I got it. And then I wind up the way I got them is uh you did a drop in New York them is uh you did a drop in New York them is uh you did a drop in New York and a friend of mine, I called him and and a friend of mine, I called him and and a friend of mine, I called him and he went and stood in line and and got he went and stood in line and and got he went and stood in line and and got them for me. It was like really unique them for me. It was like really unique them for me. It was like really unique and fun like you just made it. I like and fun like you just made it. I like and fun like you just made it. I like this idea of I just talking to Brian this idea of I just talking to Brian this idea of I just talking to Brian Armstrong about this uh founder of Armstrong about this uh founder of Armstrong about this uh founder of Coinbase where he's like everybody has Coinbase where he's like everybody has Coinbase where he's like everybody has shareholder letters, everybody has to shareholder letters, everybody has to shareholder letters, everybody has to write a shareholder letter. Everybody write a shareholder letter. Everybody write a shareholder letter. Everybody has to do these analyst calls and he's has to do these analyst calls and he's has to do these analyst calls and he's trying to find a way to like make them trying to find a way to like make them trying to find a way to like make them fun and like kind of like internet fun and like kind of like internet fun and like kind of like internet native and you know they are forms of native and you know they are forms of native and you know they are forms of marketing. They're not just analysts marketing. They're not just analysts marketing. They're not just analysts that are reading these things like they that are reading these things like they that are reading these things like they could if you if you think about them and could if you if you think about them and could if you if you think about them and like and think about like doing creative like and think about like doing creative like and think about like doing creative marketing you could just drastically marketing you could just drastically marketing you could just drastically increase the amount of people that are increase the amount of people that are increase the amount of people that are getting information about your company. getting information about your company. getting information about your company. Why is it so important to you though to Why is it so important to you though to Why is it so important to you though to control so much of the hardware that control so much of the hardware that control so much of the hardware that you're making? you're making? you're making? >> Control of the hardware is necessary to >> Control of the hardware is necessary to >> Control of the hardware is necessary to deliver an extraordinary customer deliver an extraordinary customer deliver an extraordinary customer experience in this space and the experience in this space and the experience in this space and the intersection between the hardware and intersection between the hardware and intersection between the hardware and the software to deliver that customer the software to deliver that customer the software to deliver that customer experience is essential. So, you know, experience is essential. So, you know, experience is essential. So, you know, as we look at how other people are as we look at how other people are as we look at how other people are approaching the space, trying to, you approaching the space, trying to, you approaching the space, trying to, you know, cobble together components from a know, cobble together components from a know, cobble together components from a ton of different manufacturers and get ton of different manufacturers and get ton of different manufacturers and get them to all work really well in a super them to all work really well in a super them to all work really well in a super small lightweight form factor that's small lightweight form factor that's small lightweight form factor that's incredibly performant is just really, incredibly performant is just really, incredibly performant is just really, really hard to do. And so, I think for really hard to do. And so, I think for really hard to do. And so, I think for us, if we want to really deliver, you us, if we want to really deliver, you us, if we want to really deliver, you know, this cutting edge uh computing know, this cutting edge uh computing know, this cutting edge uh computing experience, experience, experience, doing that um doing that um doing that um requires us to have a very high degree requires us to have a very high degree requires us to have a very high degree of control of the areas we can really of control of the areas we can really of control of the areas we can really differentiate. So for example for us differentiate. So for example for us differentiate. So for example for us that the display components are an area that the display components are an area that the display components are an area where we really differentiate. We have where we really differentiate. We have where we really differentiate. We have an incredibly performant wave guide an incredibly performant wave guide an incredibly performant wave guide which is like the glasses part of the which is like the glasses part of the which is like the glasses part of the the lens right basically the lens of of the lens right basically the lens of of the lens right basically the lens of of the glasses. Uh and we've developed our the glasses. Uh and we've developed our the glasses. Uh and we've developed our own projector that's incredibly small own projector that's incredibly small own projector that's incredibly small that you know beams light into this this that you know beams light into this this that you know beams light into this this wave guide. That's a big strategic wave guide. That's a big strategic wave guide. That's a big strategic advantage for us because the display advantage for us because the display advantage for us because the display components draw a lot of power, right? components draw a lot of power, right? components draw a lot of power, right? They're really important in terms of They're really important in terms of They're really important in terms of having that immersion uh and being able having that immersion uh and being able having that immersion uh and being able to have a very wide field of view when to have a very wide field of view when to have a very wide field of view when you're using uh the glasses. You can you're using uh the glasses. You can you're using uh the glasses. You can interact with the world. And then of interact with the world. And then of interact with the world. And then of course like the resolution, the course like the resolution, the course like the resolution, the sharpness, like those are the things sharpness, like those are the things sharpness, like those are the things that really really matter. And so for that really really matter. And so for that really really matter. And so for us, in order to push those boundaries, us, in order to push those boundaries, us, in order to push those boundaries, there's no one that comes close to like there's no one that comes close to like there's no one that comes close to like to to our ability to deliver on that on to to our ability to deliver on that on to to our ability to deliver on that on that product experience. So by doing it that product experience. So by doing it that product experience. So by doing it ourselves, I think we've created uh you ourselves, I think we've created uh you ourselves, I think we've created uh you know a competitive advantage that will know a competitive advantage that will know a competitive advantage that will show up in in the product that the show up in in the product that the show up in in the product that the consumers will experience. say more consumers will experience. say more consumers will experience. say more about that line where you said it's about that line where you said it's about that line where you said it's important to control the parts that you important to control the parts that you important to control the parts that you can differentiate on can differentiate on can differentiate on >> essentially like you're going to burn >> essentially like you're going to burn >> essentially like you're going to burn yourself out if you try to control yourself out if you try to control yourself out if you try to control everything, right? So, it's really everything, right? So, it's really everything, right? So, it's really important to identify very early on like important to identify very early on like important to identify very early on like where are the strategic points where you where are the strategic points where you where are the strategic points where you can create a totally unique customer can create a totally unique customer can create a totally unique customer experience by really investing in doing experience by really investing in doing experience by really investing in doing things differently. And for us, we've things differently. And for us, we've things differently. And for us, we've really thoughtfully picked out where can really thoughtfully picked out where can really thoughtfully picked out where can we play and do something that's really we play and do something that's really we play and do something that's really hard and do it differently that creates hard and do it differently that creates hard and do it differently that creates a sustained competitive advantage a sustained competitive advantage a sustained competitive advantage because it delivers such an awesome because it delivers such an awesome because it delivers such an awesome customer experience. So the display customer experience. So the display customer experience. So the display components are one. I can talk about components are one. I can talk about components are one. I can talk about that cuz it's public, but like later that cuz it's public, but like later that cuz it's public, but like later this year, people will see a lot of this year, people will see a lot of this year, people will see a lot of these areas where we've invested and and these areas where we've invested and and these areas where we've invested and and invented, you know, fundamentally invented, you know, fundamentally invented, you know, fundamentally invented uh new ways of doing things invented uh new ways of doing things invented uh new ways of doing things that I think consumers are going to that I think consumers are going to that I think consumers are going to love. love. love. >> Another thing that like Edwin like again >> Another thing that like Edwin like again >> Another thing that like Edwin like again people should study Edwin Land, they people should study Edwin Land, they people should study Edwin Land, they should study all these history skills should study all these history skills should study all these history skills entrepreneurs because you just realize entrepreneurs because you just realize entrepreneurs because you just realize they come up with ideas too. We were they come up with ideas too. We were they come up with ideas too. We were talking earlier, it's like he wanted he talking earlier, it's like he wanted he talking earlier, it's like he wanted he realized like if he did not have control realized like if he did not have control realized like if he did not have control because he started he wanted to be an because he started he wanted to be an because he started he wanted to be an inventor, not an entrepreneur. He had to inventor, not an entrepreneur. He had to inventor, not an entrepreneur. He had to learn to be an entrepreneur just so he learn to be an entrepreneur just so he learn to be an entrepreneur just so he could actually make money on his could actually make money on his could actually make money on his inventions. So therefore, he only wanted inventions. So therefore, he only wanted inventions. So therefore, he only wanted to make money so he could invent more to make money so he could invent more to make money so he could invent more things. He was not after, you know, just things. He was not after, you know, just things. He was not after, you know, just having piles of money. And anytime he having piles of money. And anytime he having piles of money. And anytime he tried to outsource one, he he let other tried to outsource one, he he let other tried to outsource one, he he let other companies get in in between him and the companies get in in between him and the companies get in in between him and the end consumer, which he fixed that when end consumer, which he fixed that when end consumer, which he fixed that when he did Polaroid and and uh and and the he did Polaroid and and uh and and the he did Polaroid and and uh and and the cameras, but when the manufacturing he cameras, but when the manufacturing he cameras, but when the manufacturing he owned the factories were in owned the factories were in owned the factories were in Massachusetts for god's sake, he was Massachusetts for god's sake, he was Massachusetts for god's sake, he was manufacturing high-end technology in manufacturing high-end technology in manufacturing high-end technology in America. And his whole point was just America. And his whole point was just America. And his whole point was just like he didn't want to be a like he didn't want to be a like he didn't want to be a manufacturer, but he needed to control manufacturer, but he needed to control manufacturer, but he needed to control the things. So not only like to get the the things. So not only like to get the the things. So not only like to get the cost down but to be able to influence cost down but to be able to influence cost down but to be able to influence the end unit of the the the product. the end unit of the the the product. the end unit of the the the product. >> Yeah. People uh you know I think would >> Yeah. People uh you know I think would >> Yeah. People uh you know I think would be stunned to learn that we manufacture be stunned to learn that we manufacture be stunned to learn that we manufacture core components in the US and the UK core components in the US and the UK core components in the US and the UK right in our own facilities which allow right in our own facilities which allow right in our own facilities which allow us to do this really advanced R&D that us to do this really advanced R&D that us to do this really advanced R&D that push the boundaries of what's you know push the boundaries of what's you know push the boundaries of what's you know what's possible with these components. what's possible with these components. what's possible with these components. >> Yeah it's the same same exact idea. So >> Yeah it's the same same exact idea. So >> Yeah it's the same same exact idea. So how are you going to distribute them? I how are you going to distribute them? I how are you going to distribute them? I can't share all of our fine our secrets, can't share all of our fine our secrets, can't share all of our fine our secrets, but I we can we can regroup after the but I we can we can regroup after the but I we can we can regroup after the after the launch and and and deep dive after the launch and and and deep dive after the launch and and and deep dive into all of it. into all of it. into all of it. >> Okay. But I have a sense that you want >> Okay. But I have a sense that you want >> Okay. But I have a sense that you want to control that too. to control that too. to control that too. >> Uh I think it's it's important in terms >> Uh I think it's it's important in terms >> Uh I think it's it's important in terms of the customer experience. of the customer experience. of the customer experience. >> What a surprise. All right. You just you >> What a surprise. All right. You just you >> What a surprise. All right. You just you described uh you you wrote this like uh described uh you you wrote this like uh described uh you you wrote this like uh I think it was your annual letter I think it was your annual letter I think it was your annual letter recently. Um and I I forgot the term recently. Um and I I forgot the term recently. Um and I I forgot the term you're basically the way you're you're basically the way you're you're basically the way you're positioning Snap. not not like a little positioning Snap. not not like a little positioning Snap. not not like a little brother, but you described essentially brother, but you described essentially brother, but you described essentially like you have the scale of some of these like you have the scale of some of these like you have the scale of some of these big players, but you don't have the big players, but you don't have the big players, but you don't have the trillion dollar market cap, right? And trillion dollar market cap, right? And trillion dollar market cap, right? And you were I think I think at least once you were I think I think at least once you were I think I think at least once in this conversation, you described that in this conversation, you described that in this conversation, you described that you've been engaged in trench warfare. you've been engaged in trench warfare. you've been engaged in trench warfare. Why do you call it trench for warfare Why do you call it trench for warfare Why do you call it trench for warfare and tell us some stories about this? and tell us some stories about this? and tell us some stories about this? >> Yeah, I I mean I I think that the the >> Yeah, I I mean I I think that the the >> Yeah, I I mean I I think that the the term I used in my letter was like the term I used in my letter was like the term I used in my letter was like the middle child, right? Because we're so middle child, right? Because we're so middle child, right? Because we're so much bigger than, you know, smaller much bigger than, you know, smaller much bigger than, you know, smaller competitors like a Reddit or a Pinterest competitors like a Reddit or a Pinterest competitors like a Reddit or a Pinterest or something like that, right? But we or something like that, right? But we or something like that, right? But we don't have don't have don't have >> you just call Reddit small >> you just call Reddit small >> you just call Reddit small >> from like a you know we're almost a >> from like a you know we're almost a >> from like a you know we're almost a billion folks using our our service. If billion folks using our our service. If billion folks using our our service. If you look at like our daily active you look at like our daily active you look at like our daily active engagement it's about like half a engagement it's about like half a engagement it's about like half a billion folks. So I think like just in billion folks. So I think like just in billion folks. So I think like just in terms of the scale of terms of the scale of terms of the scale of >> there's there's half a billion people >> there's there's half a billion people >> there's there's half a billion people using Snap every day. using Snap every day. using Snap every day. >> About half a billion every day. Yeah. >> About half a billion every day. Yeah. >> About half a billion every day. Yeah. >> And a billion >> And a billion >> And a billion >> and a billion about you know how many >> and a billion about you know how many >> and a billion about you know how many services how many other services are services how many other services are services how many other services are that size? that size? that size? >> Maybe 10 maybe. >> Maybe 10 maybe. >> Maybe 10 maybe. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Seven to 10. Depends if you include >> Seven to 10. Depends if you include >> Seven to 10. Depends if you include China. China. China. >> No we don't. >> No we don't. >> No we don't. America baby. Um all right. All right. America baby. Um all right. All right. America baby. Um all right. All right. So, wait, you're the not the I keep So, wait, you're the not the I keep So, wait, you're the not the I keep saying little brother. You're the middle saying little brother. You're the middle saying little brother. You're the middle child. Say more about that. child. Say more about that. child. Say more about that. >> You're the middle child. And and I think >> You're the middle child. And and I think >> You're the middle child. And and I think um um um you know, I think what's interesting you know, I think what's interesting you know, I think what's interesting about that is like that the you know, about that is like that the you know, about that is like that the you know, and it's funny, we've got four kids at and it's funny, we've got four kids at and it's funny, we've got four kids at home, right? So, part of it was like home, right? So, part of it was like home, right? So, part of it was like based on my own experience with our kids based on my own experience with our kids based on my own experience with our kids where like a lot of attention is paid to where like a lot of attention is paid to where like a lot of attention is paid to the the the eldest child, right? And you the the the eldest child, right? And you the the the eldest child, right? And you know, um and they're they've gotten so know, um and they're they've gotten so know, um and they're they've gotten so much bigger and they've grown up and you much bigger and they've grown up and you much bigger and they've grown up and you know, our 15-year-old and then the the know, our 15-year-old and then the the know, our 15-year-old and then the the baby, right, is growing so fast. It's so baby, right, is growing so fast. It's so baby, right, is growing so fast. It's so exciting. And then I think somewhere in exciting. And then I think somewhere in exciting. And then I think somewhere in the middle right uh and hopefully this the middle right uh and hopefully this the middle right uh and hopefully this isn't the case in in our house there's isn't the case in in our house there's isn't the case in in our house there's like this period where you know you're like this period where you know you're like this period where you know you're changing and evolving and people don't changing and evolving and people don't changing and evolving and people don't know what are you becoming right maybe know what are you becoming right maybe know what are you becoming right maybe in the case for for Snap right people in the case for for Snap right people in the case for for Snap right people are trying to understand what is this are trying to understand what is this are trying to understand what is this glasses thing they've been doing for 12 glasses thing they've been doing for 12 glasses thing they've been doing for 12 years that they're about to like launch years that they're about to like launch years that they're about to like launch to the world what is the role you know to the world what is the role you know to the world what is the role you know Snap's core Snapchat's core business is Snap's core Snapchat's core business is Snap's core Snapchat's core business is evolving we're growing this huge direct evolving we're growing this huge direct evolving we're growing this huge direct revenue business that's growing really revenue business that's growing really revenue business that's growing really really rapidly and we're diversifying really rapidly and we're diversifying really rapidly and we're diversifying you know our advertising business with you know our advertising business with you know our advertising business with small and medium customers so we're in small and medium customers so we're in small and medium customers so we're in this period of like very intense change this period of like very intense change this period of like very intense change I think um for for Snapchat and as I I think um for for Snapchat and as I I think um for for Snapchat and as I mentioned we're not as big as the giants mentioned we're not as big as the giants mentioned we're not as big as the giants and we're we're not as small as the our and we're we're not as small as the our and we're we're not as small as the our our smaller uh competitors and so it's our smaller uh competitors and so it's our smaller uh competitors and so it's that really interesting moment that I that really interesting moment that I that really interesting moment that I think you know middle children also uh think you know middle children also uh think you know middle children also uh you know maybe experience where there's you know maybe experience where there's you know maybe experience where there's all this change happening and you know all this change happening and you know all this change happening and you know um you're you're sort of stuck in the in um you're you're sort of stuck in the in um you're you're sort of stuck in the in the middle. the middle. the middle. >> Is this a stressful time for you? You >> Is this a stressful time for you? You >> Is this a stressful time for you? You know, it's so funny. My my wife like know, it's so funny. My my wife like know, it's so funny. My my wife like loves the Aura Ring. Like she's loves the Aura Ring. Like she's loves the Aura Ring. Like she's obsessed, you know? She like she like, obsessed, you know? She like she like, obsessed, you know? She like she like, you know, markets this thing to like you know, markets this thing to like you know, markets this thing to like everybody, right? Wants to like compare everybody, right? Wants to like compare everybody, right? Wants to like compare scores and all this kind. So, she scores and all this kind. So, she scores and all this kind. So, she finally like years and years later was finally like years and years later was finally like years and years later was like, I'm going to try the Aura Ring. like, I'm going to try the Aura Ring. like, I'm going to try the Aura Ring. And she was like shocked to learn that And she was like shocked to learn that And she was like shocked to learn that like, you know, there's sort of like the like, you know, there's sort of like the like, you know, there's sort of like the relaxed and stressed state and I'm just relaxed and stressed state and I'm just relaxed and stressed state and I'm just like in the relaxed state like all day like in the relaxed state like all day like in the relaxed state like all day long. And so I like wore it for a week long. And so I like wore it for a week long. And so I like wore it for a week and it basically was like, you know, I and it basically was like, you know, I and it basically was like, you know, I sleep like seven or eight hours. I'm in sleep like seven or eight hours. I'm in sleep like seven or eight hours. I'm in the relaxed state all the time. like she the relaxed state all the time. like she the relaxed state all the time. like she was like how like what you know like so was like how like what you know like so was like how like what you know like so so I think like I really love like so I think like I really love like so I think like I really love like periods of intense change like I'm periods of intense change like I'm periods of intense change like I'm inspired by it I enjoy it and so like inspired by it I enjoy it and so like inspired by it I enjoy it and so like while you know yeah it is like while you know yeah it is like while you know yeah it is like stressful to some degree I think like stressful to some degree I think like stressful to some degree I think like you know the the question is like how do you know the the question is like how do you know the the question is like how do you turn that stress into like you turn that stress into like you turn that stress into like opportunity into growth into change but opportunity into growth into change but opportunity into growth into change but I think what's really important is for I think what's really important is for I think what's really important is for our entire team and our organization to our entire team and our organization to our entire team and our organization to know what a high stakes moment this is know what a high stakes moment this is know what a high stakes moment this is for our business, right? Like at this for our business, right? Like at this for our business, right? Like at this moment in time, you know, what will we moment in time, you know, what will we moment in time, you know, what will we become? We are in a transitional become? We are in a transitional become? We are in a transitional moment. Um, and and that's super super moment. Um, and and that's super super moment. Um, and and that's super super exciting and it means every second like exciting and it means every second like exciting and it means every second like every minute counts. I would say more every minute counts. I would say more every minute counts. I would say more exciting than than stressful, but like exciting than than stressful, but like exciting than than stressful, but like it's it's a really cool moment for for it's it's a really cool moment for for it's it's a really cool moment for for our company. When you write something our company. When you write something our company. When you write something like that, obviously like is it more like that, obviously like is it more like that, obviously like is it more aimed at the broader like investor aimed at the broader like investor aimed at the broader like investor community or is it aimed for internal community or is it aimed for internal community or is it aimed for internal like consumption? like consumption? like consumption? >> I always wrote them internally, but then >> I always wrote them internally, but then >> I always wrote them internally, but then they kept leaking and people like them. they kept leaking and people like them. they kept leaking and people like them. So then I was like, you know what, we'll So then I was like, you know what, we'll So then I was like, you know what, we'll just publish it publicly going forward. just publish it publicly going forward. just publish it publicly going forward. >> Brad Jacobs has started eight separate >> Brad Jacobs has started eight separate >> Brad Jacobs has started eight separate billiondoll companies. He said, I've billiondoll companies. He said, I've billiondoll companies. He said, I've come to know a lot of extremely come to know a lot of extremely come to know a lot of extremely successful people in my life, and they successful people in my life, and they successful people in my life, and they all have one thing in common. They think all have one thing in common. They think all have one thing in common. They think differently than most people. All of differently than most people. All of differently than most people. All of them to a person have rearranged their them to a person have rearranged their them to a person have rearranged their brains to prevail at achieving big goals brains to prevail at achieving big goals brains to prevail at achieving big goals in turbulent environments where in turbulent environments where in turbulent environments where conventional thinking often fails. What conventional thinking often fails. What conventional thinking often fails. What Brad noticed is that great business Brad noticed is that great business Brad noticed is that great business leaders are pattern spotters. But you leaders are pattern spotters. But you leaders are pattern spotters. But you can't spot patterns if you can't see all can't spot patterns if you can't see all can't spot patterns if you can't see all of your data. Most businesses only use of your data. Most businesses only use of your data. Most businesses only use 20% of their data. Why? Because 80% of 20% of their data. Why? Because 80% of 20% of their data. Why? Because 80% of customer intelligence is invisible. It's customer intelligence is invisible. It's customer intelligence is invisible. It's hidden in emails, transcripts, and hidden in emails, transcripts, and hidden in emails, transcripts, and conversations. That's where HubSpot conversations. That's where HubSpot conversations. That's where HubSpot comes in. With HubSpot, all of your data comes in. With HubSpot, all of your data comes in. With HubSpot, all of your data comes together so you can see the comes together so you can see the comes together so you can see the patterns that matter. This is important patterns that matter. This is important patterns that matter. This is important because when you know more, you grow because when you know more, you grow because when you know more, you grow more. And that is a pattern that never more. And that is a pattern that never more. And that is a pattern that never fails. Visit hubspot.com today. That is fails. Visit hubspot.com today. That is fails. Visit hubspot.com today. That is hubspot.com. hubspot.com. hubspot.com. I had this great conversation with I had this great conversation with I had this great conversation with Michael Dell, who's just awesome, like a Michael Dell, who's just awesome, like a Michael Dell, who's just awesome, like a great human being. Absolutely love that great human being. Absolutely love that great human being. Absolutely love that I get to spend time with him. I can't I get to spend time with him. I can't I get to spend time with him. I can't believe it. and he has that thing where believe it. and he has that thing where believe it. and he has that thing where it's like he actually thinks it's it's like he actually thinks it's it's like he actually thinks it's important to to even if you don't have a important to to even if you don't have a important to to even if you don't have a crisis to like induce one like to create crisis to like induce one like to create crisis to like induce one like to create one and he gave this fantastic you know one and he gave this fantastic you know one and he gave this fantastic you know he's reimagined his company that I mean he's reimagined his company that I mean he's reimagined his company that I mean have you spent any time with him? have you spent any time with him? have you spent any time with him? >> I have. Yeah. >> I have. Yeah. >> I have. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. So like that's probably if I >> Okay. Yeah. So like that's probably if I >> Okay. Yeah. So like that's probably if I was you I'd be like picking his brain. was you I'd be like picking his brain. was you I'd be like picking his brain. I'm friends with his son Zack and you I'm friends with his son Zack and you I'm friends with his son Zack and you know um everybody has access to like the know um everybody has access to like the know um everybody has access to like the Bloomberg terminal and Zach's like I got Bloomberg terminal and Zach's like I got Bloomberg terminal and Zach's like I got the dad terminal and it's just like I the dad terminal and it's just like I the dad terminal and it's just like I get to like type in any question and get get to like type in any question and get get to like type in any question and get some crazy you know response from this some crazy you know response from this some crazy you know response from this 40 essentially he's been you know world 40 essentially he's been you know world 40 essentially he's been you know world class entrepreneur for four decades so class entrepreneur for four decades so class entrepreneur for four decades so like I have an issue with supply chain like I have an issue with supply chain like I have an issue with supply chain well guess what seen everything about well guess what seen everything about well guess what seen everything about supply chains and he and he's like can supply chains and he and he's like can supply chains and he and he's like can be very helpful but his whole point was be very helpful but his whole point was be very helpful but his whole point was like he knew that he his company was like he knew that he his company was like he knew that he his company was under inflection point a few years ago under inflection point a few years ago under inflection point a few years ago and he stood up and and gave this this and he stood up and and gave this this and he stood up and and gave this this uh I guess this talk I think it was a uh I guess this talk I think it was a uh I guess this talk I think it was a talk and you might have wrote it down talk and you might have wrote it down talk and you might have wrote it down but it's just like you know there's a but it's just like you know there's a but it's just like you know there's a company out there that is you know going company out there that is you know going company out there that is you know going to uh do be faster than us have better to uh do be faster than us have better to uh do be faster than us have better products have cheaper uh products and products have cheaper uh products and products have cheaper uh products and essentially they're going to come for us essentially they're going to come for us essentially they're going to come for us is like that company's us like we are is like that company's us like we are is like that company's us like we are going to reinvent we're going to figure going to reinvent we're going to figure going to reinvent we're going to figure out what our weakness is and instead of out what our weakness is and instead of out what our weakness is and instead of let waiting around to be somebody else's let waiting around to be somebody else's let waiting around to be somebody else's meal like we're going to figure out how meal like we're going to figure out how meal like we're going to figure out how to reinvent our company and on the to reinvent our company and on the to reinvent our company and on the podcast the episode we did together he podcast the episode we did together he podcast the episode we did together he was just like if you don't have a crisis was just like if you don't have a crisis was just like if you don't have a crisis you need to find one I would say yes you need to find one I would say yes you need to find one I would say yes with the caveat that Like I don't want with the caveat that Like I don't want with the caveat that Like I don't want our team to always feel like they're in our team to always feel like they're in our team to always feel like they're in crisis mode. I think I always try to be crisis mode. I think I always try to be crisis mode. I think I always try to be really cognizant of like where the team really cognizant of like where the team really cognizant of like where the team is at and like when we should sprint and is at and like when we should sprint and is at and like when we should sprint and run hard and like when we actually need run hard and like when we actually need run hard and like when we actually need to take a step back and you know adjust, to take a step back and you know adjust, to take a step back and you know adjust, you know? So I think like all like you know? So I think like all like you know? So I think like all like staying in touch, especially at our staying in touch, especially at our staying in touch, especially at our size, right? We're like 5,000ish people. size, right? We're like 5,000ish people. size, right? We're like 5,000ish people. you can really stay in touch with like you can really stay in touch with like you can really stay in touch with like the feeling of the organization and the feeling of the organization and the feeling of the organization and knowing when to like really really push knowing when to like really really push knowing when to like really really push uh you know and when it's better to uh you know and when it's better to uh you know and when it's better to create a little more space for like create a little more space for like create a little more space for like ideation or you know experimentation. ideation or you know experimentation. ideation or you know experimentation. >> So 5,000 people serving a billion uh >> So 5,000 people serving a billion uh >> So 5,000 people serving a billion uh billion users. You mentioned uh you have billion users. You mentioned uh you have billion users. You mentioned uh you have a bunch of different revenue lines are a bunch of different revenue lines are a bunch of different revenue lines are ones that are growing like how does can ones that are growing like how does can ones that are growing like how does can tell me about the ones that like are tell me about the ones that like are tell me about the ones that like are new? One of the new ones is our new? One of the new ones is our new? One of the new ones is our subscription business uh which is subscription business uh which is subscription business uh which is growing really really rapidly called growing really really rapidly called growing really really rapidly called Snapchat Plus. Um and I think it's a Snapchat Plus. Um and I think it's a Snapchat Plus. Um and I think it's a really good fit for Snap's culture. You really good fit for Snap's culture. You really good fit for Snap's culture. You know, we we adopted the advertising know, we we adopted the advertising know, we we adopted the advertising model very early on. I think it's like model very early on. I think it's like model very early on. I think it's like well understood. It's a huge opportunity well understood. It's a huge opportunity well understood. It's a huge opportunity and we have a ton of, you know, and we have a ton of, you know, and we have a ton of, you know, engagement on on Snapchat. So engagement on on Snapchat. So engagement on on Snapchat. So advertising is a big opportunity for us advertising is a big opportunity for us advertising is a big opportunity for us and it allows us to offer our product and it allows us to offer our product and it allows us to offer our product for free, which is great. Um, but I for free, which is great. Um, but I for free, which is great. Um, but I think, you know, the heart of Snapchat think, you know, the heart of Snapchat think, you know, the heart of Snapchat is and and our company is about building is and and our company is about building is and and our company is about building stuff that people love and and and that stuff that people love and and and that stuff that people love and and and that they want. And we were getting so many they want. And we were getting so many they want. And we were getting so many requests for all sorts of, you know, new requests for all sorts of, you know, new requests for all sorts of, you know, new and different features from our the most and different features from our the most and different features from our the most passionate members of our community. And passionate members of our community. And passionate members of our community. And we would we could never really find time we would we could never really find time we would we could never really find time to resource and invest in them. Um, to resource and invest in them. Um, to resource and invest in them. Um, because we were focused on things that because we were focused on things that because we were focused on things that everyone would use, not just like our everyone would use, not just like our everyone would use, not just like our most passionate, not just the most most passionate, not just the most most passionate, not just the most passionate Snapchatter. So, we decided passionate Snapchatter. So, we decided passionate Snapchatter. So, we decided to build Snapchat Plus, which is to build Snapchat Plus, which is to build Snapchat Plus, which is essentially gives you access to like new essentially gives you access to like new essentially gives you access to like new fun features on on Snapchat. We listen fun features on on Snapchat. We listen fun features on on Snapchat. We listen to our community and the things that to our community and the things that to our community and the things that they they want and we'll test stuff and they they want and we'll test stuff and they they want and we'll test stuff and release new things for for Snapchat release new things for for Snapchat release new things for for Snapchat Plus. And for like four bucks a month, Plus. And for like four bucks a month, Plus. And for like four bucks a month, you can join Snapchat Plus and get you can join Snapchat Plus and get you can join Snapchat Plus and get access to all these new uh these new access to all these new uh these new access to all these new uh these new features. That's now grown to like 25 features. That's now grown to like 25 features. That's now grown to like 25 million subscribers, which is like ESPN million subscribers, which is like ESPN million subscribers, which is like ESPN scale of subscribers. And I think in the scale of subscribers. And I think in the scale of subscribers. And I think in the last quarter is growing 60% last quarter is growing 60% last quarter is growing 60% year-over-year at like a billion. year-over-year at like a billion. year-over-year at like a billion. >> Don't make me do public math. Is that a >> Don't make me do public math. Is that a >> Don't make me do public math. Is that a billion run rate? uh we're doing a bit billion run rate? uh we're doing a bit billion run rate? uh we're doing a bit like yeah like a billion run rate like yeah like a billion run rate like yeah like a billion run rate growing 60% year-over-year. growing 60% year-over-year. growing 60% year-over-year. >> That's incredible. >> That's incredible. >> That's incredible. >> And it's a really good fit for what >> And it's a really good fit for what >> And it's a really good fit for what we're great at, which is making new we're great at, which is making new we're great at, which is making new stuff that people love and want to pay stuff that people love and want to pay stuff that people love and want to pay for. So I think it's it's like for. So I think it's it's like for. So I think it's it's like culturally been a been a great fit for culturally been a been a great fit for culturally been a been a great fit for for our company. for our company. for our company. >> It kind of ties to what we were talking >> It kind of ties to what we were talking >> It kind of ties to what we were talking about when you're design meetings about when you're design meetings about when you're design meetings earlier versus like we're looking at earlier versus like we're looking at earlier versus like we're looking at hundreds. How often are you doing these hundreds. How often are you doing these hundreds. How often are you doing these design meetings, by the way? design meetings, by the way? design meetings, by the way? >> Once a week. >> Once a week. >> Once a week. >> Okay. So every week you're going through >> Okay. So every week you're going through >> Okay. So every week you're going through hundreds of new ideas, some of which hundreds of new ideas, some of which hundreds of new ideas, some of which wind up for features for Snap. Snapchat. wind up for features for Snap. Snapchat. wind up for features for Snap. Snapchat. Okay. So that's perfectly in time. What Okay. So that's perfectly in time. What Okay. So that's perfectly in time. What what did you say earlier about what else what did you say earlier about what else what did you say earlier about what else are you going to do with do you think are you going to do with do you think are you going to do with do you think like you're going to add to that or do like you're going to add to that or do like you're going to add to that or do in the future if you want to talk about in the future if you want to talk about in the future if you want to talk about it it it >> for the subscription business? I mean we >> for the subscription business? I mean we >> for the subscription business? I mean we got a zillion ideas in the backlog so got a zillion ideas in the backlog so got a zillion ideas in the backlog so we're just going to keep shipping new we're just going to keep shipping new we're just going to keep shipping new you know new additions and features. you know new additions and features. you know new additions and features. >> Do you think you eventually increase the >> Do you think you eventually increase the >> Do you think you eventually increase the price? price? price? >> Uh maybe but I think it's so early right >> Uh maybe but I think it's so early right >> Uh maybe but I think it's so early right now. Yeah we we have done tiering. So now. Yeah we we have done tiering. So now. Yeah we we have done tiering. So one of the things that has been really one of the things that has been really one of the things that has been really popular we released something called popular we released something called popular we released something called lens plus. So I think Snap Snapchat the lens plus. So I think Snap Snapchat the lens plus. So I think Snap Snapchat the camera itself it's probably the most camera itself it's probably the most camera itself it's probably the most used like Gen AI camera service like in used like Gen AI camera service like in used like Gen AI camera service like in terms of like image video generation terms of like image video generation terms of like image video generation this kind of thing. Um just because of this kind of thing. Um just because of this kind of thing. Um just because of how many people are using our camera how many people are using our camera how many people are using our camera every day. Um but we have you know so we every day. Um but we have you know so we every day. Um but we have you know so we release a bunch of these um Genai lenses release a bunch of these um Genai lenses release a bunch of these um Genai lenses and we give a number of uses for free. and we give a number of uses for free. and we give a number of uses for free. Um but then if folks want to upgrade to Um but then if folks want to upgrade to Um but then if folks want to upgrade to lens plus because they're loving it and lens plus because they're loving it and lens plus because they're loving it and using them all the time uh they can do using them all the time uh they can do using them all the time uh they can do that and that's that that's grown nicely that and that's that that's grown nicely that and that's that that's grown nicely for us too. Um, so Lens Plus is at a for us too. Um, so Lens Plus is at a for us too. Um, so Lens Plus is at a slightly higher price tier and then we slightly higher price tier and then we slightly higher price tier and then we have, you know, the platinum plan or have, you know, the platinum plan or have, you know, the platinum plan or whatever that you can get rid of ads whatever that you can get rid of ads whatever that you can get rid of ads and, you know, unlock more features, and, you know, unlock more features, and, you know, unlock more features, that kind of thing. that kind of thing. that kind of thing. >> What did you change about the >> What did you change about the >> What did you change about the advertising business? You said something advertising business? You said something advertising business? You said something about you just basically adopted at the about you just basically adopted at the about you just basically adopted at the beginning of what was there and beginning of what was there and beginning of what was there and available and maybe known and how has available and maybe known and how has available and maybe known and how has that changed over time? that changed over time? that changed over time? >> There's been a couple huge shift for >> There's been a couple huge shift for >> There's been a couple huge shift for shifts for us in the past couple years. shifts for us in the past couple years. shifts for us in the past couple years. You know, the core of our advertising You know, the core of our advertising You know, the core of our advertising business from the early days really grew business from the early days really grew business from the early days really grew around, you know, a small number in the, around, you know, a small number in the, around, you know, a small number in the, you know, in the hundreds of large you know, in the hundreds of large you know, in the hundreds of large customers in the United States, really customers in the United States, really customers in the United States, really built around a brand business and it built around a brand business and it built around a brand business and it grew very very quickly throughout the, grew very very quickly throughout the, grew very very quickly throughout the, you know, the the history of the the you know, the the history of the the you know, the the history of the the company. But our advertising mix almost company. But our advertising mix almost company. But our advertising mix almost looked like the inverse of like a Google looked like the inverse of like a Google looked like the inverse of like a Google or Meta. So Google or Meta the vast or Meta. So Google or Meta the vast or Meta. So Google or Meta the vast majority of their revenue comes from majority of their revenue comes from majority of their revenue comes from small and medium-sized customers and a small and medium-sized customers and a small and medium-sized customers and a small amount of their revenue comes from small amount of their revenue comes from small amount of their revenue comes from you know large large customers you know large large customers you know large large customers especially here in the US we had like especially here in the US we had like especially here in the US we had like the inverse we had most of our revenue the inverse we had most of our revenue the inverse we had most of our revenue coming from this small group of of large coming from this small group of of large coming from this small group of of large customers and then a very small amount customers and then a very small amount customers and then a very small amount of money coming from small and medium of money coming from small and medium of money coming from small and medium customers part of that was because you customers part of that was because you customers part of that was because you know at the time many years ago we know at the time many years ago we know at the time many years ago we didn't have a really robust lowerfunnel didn't have a really robust lowerfunnel didn't have a really robust lowerfunnel advertising business you know where advertising business you know where advertising business you know where people can optimize against you know people can optimize against you know people can optimize against you know events that happen in their app or you events that happen in their app or you events that happen in their app or you know people making purchases on their know people making purchases on their know people making purchases on their website um and you know we hadn't really website um and you know we hadn't really website um and you know we hadn't really built out a lot of those capabilities built out a lot of those capabilities built out a lot of those capabilities and small and medium customers really and small and medium customers really and small and medium customers really care about that. They want to see their care about that. They want to see their care about that. They want to see their return on ad spend right away. Uh so return on ad spend right away. Uh so return on ad spend right away. Uh so despite having this enormous scale and despite having this enormous scale and despite having this enormous scale and all this engagement the the ad offering all this engagement the the ad offering all this engagement the the ad offering especially in the lower funnel was was especially in the lower funnel was was especially in the lower funnel was was immature. So over the past couple years, immature. So over the past couple years, immature. So over the past couple years, we built out that entire lowerfunnel we built out that entire lowerfunnel we built out that entire lowerfunnel advertising offering so we can really advertising offering so we can really advertising offering so we can really drive performance for for customers um drive performance for for customers um drive performance for for customers um for for small medium customers and we've for for small medium customers and we've for for small medium customers and we've been really rapidly growing that small been really rapidly growing that small been really rapidly growing that small medium uh that small medium customer medium uh that small medium customer medium uh that small medium customer segment. So we're doing like this really segment. So we're doing like this really segment. So we're doing like this really difficult transformation to make our difficult transformation to make our difficult transformation to make our sort of inverted, you know, mostly large sort of inverted, you know, mostly large sort of inverted, you know, mostly large US customers advertising around US customers advertising around US customers advertising around upperfunnel and brand goals into like upperfunnel and brand goals into like upperfunnel and brand goals into like mostly small medium customers uh mostly small medium customers uh mostly small medium customers uh advertising against lower funnel funnel advertising against lower funnel funnel advertising against lower funnel funnel goals. And that's just been a goals. And that's just been a goals. And that's just been a transformation of like every part of our transformation of like every part of our transformation of like every part of our advertising business, the way that we go advertising business, the way that we go advertising business, the way that we go to market on the sales side, the the to market on the sales side, the the to market on the sales side, the the engineering and product work that's engineering and product work that's engineering and product work that's happening. happening. happening. >> Yeah. I'd be curious like what that >> Yeah. I'd be curious like what that >> Yeah. I'd be curious like what that looks like because if you are doing the looks like because if you are doing the looks like because if you are doing the inverse, you have these giant brand inverse, you have these giant brand inverse, you have these giant brand deals. I'd have to imagine as giant deals. I'd have to imagine as giant deals. I'd have to imagine as giant brands spending a ton of money, right? brands spending a ton of money, right? brands spending a ton of money, right? I'd have to imagine that you have to I'd have to imagine that you have to I'd have to imagine that you have to employ a ton of sales people, right? In employ a ton of sales people, right? In employ a ton of sales people, right? In a way that Google and Facebook do not. a way that Google and Facebook do not. a way that Google and Facebook do not. >> Yeah, that's certainly one part of it >> Yeah, that's certainly one part of it >> Yeah, that's certainly one part of it for sure. for sure. for sure. >> So that'd be more profitable too because >> So that'd be more profitable too because >> So that'd be more profitable too because they kind of have like a self-service they kind of have like a self-service they kind of have like a self-service product. product. product. >> Yeah. And I think you know large >> Yeah. And I think you know large >> Yeah. And I think you know large customers rightly want a lot of bespoke customers rightly want a lot of bespoke customers rightly want a lot of bespoke service as well. So our engineering team service as well. So our engineering team service as well. So our engineering team was spending a huge amount of time was spending a huge amount of time was spending a huge amount of time building bespoke solutions for really building bespoke solutions for really building bespoke solutions for really large customers who want to measure large customers who want to measure large customers who want to measure things in a specific way or want a things in a specific way or want a things in a specific way or want a really unique integration or unique really unique integration or unique really unique integration or unique offering. And you know now our offering. And you know now our offering. And you know now our engineering team is spending a huge engineering team is spending a huge engineering team is spending a huge amount of time serving lowerfunnel amount of time serving lowerfunnel amount of time serving lowerfunnel customers at scale right and so rather customers at scale right and so rather customers at scale right and so rather than doing than doing than doing >> building a product they need to adapt to >> building a product they need to adapt to >> building a product they need to adapt to >> that small yeah that small medium >> that small yeah that small medium >> that small yeah that small medium customers can really easily you know customers can really easily you know customers can really easily you know sign up for and use sign up for and use sign up for and use >> are you getting rid of the bespoke are >> are you getting rid of the bespoke are >> are you getting rid of the bespoke are you trying to like you trying to like you trying to like >> we're doing a lot less bespoke but we >> we're doing a lot less bespoke but we >> we're doing a lot less bespoke but we also find that these large customers also find that these large customers also find that these large customers they want to drive lower lowerfunnel they want to drive lower lowerfunnel they want to drive lower lowerfunnel outcomes too. So, a lot of it is outcomes too. So, a lot of it is outcomes too. So, a lot of it is teaching our sales folks, you know, who teaching our sales folks, you know, who teaching our sales folks, you know, who were used to living in this more brand were used to living in this more brand were used to living in this more brand upperfunnel oriented world to sell into upperfunnel oriented world to sell into upperfunnel oriented world to sell into lowerfunnel objectives for large lowerfunnel objectives for large lowerfunnel objectives for large customers. There's actually a weird idea customers. There's actually a weird idea customers. There's actually a weird idea that just came to mind because I just that just came to mind because I just that just came to mind because I just did this episode called How SpaceX did this episode called How SpaceX did this episode called How SpaceX Works. So, there's this guy named Max Works. So, there's this guy named Max Works. So, there's this guy named Max Olsen who he still needs permission to Olsen who he still needs permission to Olsen who he still needs permission to to publish a book, but essentially he's to publish a book, but essentially he's to publish a book, but essentially he's like, "Hey, I want to tell the story of like, "Hey, I want to tell the story of like, "Hey, I want to tell the story of the history of SpaceX as it happened and the history of SpaceX as it happened and the history of SpaceX as it happened and I'm going to use their internal memos to I'm going to use their internal memos to I'm going to use their internal memos to do so." So, he's got access to like the do so." So, he's got access to like the do so." So, he's got access to like the first 10 years. I hope SpaceX allows first 10 years. I hope SpaceX allows first 10 years. I hope SpaceX allows him. I've seen a copy of like the him. I've seen a copy of like the him. I've seen a copy of like the advanced copy that you can't sell yet. advanced copy that you can't sell yet. advanced copy that you can't sell yet. It's called SpaceX Foundation. So, he's It's called SpaceX Foundation. So, he's It's called SpaceX Foundation. So, he's like, "Well, in the meantime, I'm going like, "Well, in the meantime, I'm going like, "Well, in the meantime, I'm going to write an essay that tells the story to write an essay that tells the story to write an essay that tells the story of why this is important." And so, I of why this is important." And so, I of why this is important." And so, I read the essay like three times like, read the essay like three times like, read the essay like three times like, "This is [ __ ] crazy." So, I just did "This is [ __ ] crazy." So, I just did "This is [ __ ] crazy." So, I just did an episode of Founders on it. And one of an episode of Founders on it. And one of an episode of Founders on it. And one of the most interesting things I never the most interesting things I never the most interesting things I never thought of is like essentially the the thought of is like essentially the the thought of is like essentially the the the aerospace industry, everything was the aerospace industry, everything was the aerospace industry, everything was bespoke. Everything was custom to the bespoke. Everything was custom to the bespoke. Everything was custom to the customer. And it's just like, well, if customer. And it's just like, well, if customer. And it's just like, well, if you do that, you can't scale. And Gwyn you do that, you can't scale. And Gwyn you do that, you can't scale. And Gwyn Strowell was, you know, a huge driver Strowell was, you know, a huge driver Strowell was, you know, a huge driver behind this. It's like, we're going to, behind this. It's like, we're going to, behind this. It's like, we're going to, you know, build a basic good enough you know, build a basic good enough you know, build a basic good enough launch system that you adapt to. And launch system that you adapt to. And launch system that you adapt to. And then it took a while to educate them to then it took a while to educate them to then it took a while to educate them to adapt to it. But once they're adapted, adapt to it. But once they're adapted, adapt to it. But once they're adapted, then they just I mean now they're doing then they just I mean now they're doing then they just I mean now they're doing I think uh most launch providers would I think uh most launch providers would I think uh most launch providers would do two to four launches per year that do two to four launches per year that do two to four launches per year that they do one every like two days. They they do one every like two days. They they do one every like two days. They did more load last year than every did more load last year than every did more load last year than every single other launch uh provider in like single other launch uh provider in like single other launch uh provider in like China, Russia, America, everywhere else China, Russia, America, everywhere else China, Russia, America, everywhere else combined. And that one idea where it's combined. And that one idea where it's combined. And that one idea where it's like we can't do bespoke. We have to we like we can't do bespoke. We have to we like we can't do bespoke. We have to we have to get this uniform if we're going have to get this uniform if we're going have to get this uniform if we're going to scale this and we can't get to our to scale this and we can't get to our to scale this and we can't get to our goals if we don't scale it. goals if we don't scale it. goals if we don't scale it. >> And to take it a step further, they >> And to take it a step further, they >> And to take it a step further, they didn't have to deal with all the didn't have to deal with all the didn't have to deal with all the political pressure that NASA is under to political pressure that NASA is under to political pressure that NASA is under to put, you know, a certain factory here or put, you know, a certain factory here or put, you know, a certain factory here or a plant in this state and you know what a plant in this state and you know what a plant in this state and you know what I Like I think like just out the gate I Like I think like just out the gate I Like I think like just out the gate they were able to deliver rockets at a they were able to deliver rockets at a they were able to deliver rockets at a tenth the cost tenth the cost tenth the cost >> you know of an asset or something like >> you know of an asset or something like >> you know of an asset or something like that. that. that. >> Did you intentionally invert where like >> Did you intentionally invert where like >> Did you intentionally invert where like Google and Facebook are doing it this Google and Facebook are doing it this Google and Facebook are doing it this way we're going to try a different way way we're going to try a different way way we're going to try a different way and then realizing oh we we need to and then realizing oh we we need to and then realizing oh we we need to change like back then did you make that change like back then did you make that change like back then did you make that decision consciously? decision consciously? decision consciously? >> We saw that like if we really wanted to >> We saw that like if we really wanted to >> We saw that like if we really wanted to grow the ads business to be you know grow the ads business to be you know grow the ads business to be you know doubledigit billions over time that we doubledigit billions over time that we doubledigit billions over time that we needed to have a lowerfunnel business needed to have a lowerfunnel business needed to have a lowerfunnel business with a diversified set of small with a diversified set of small with a diversified set of small business. Did you hope that wasn't true business. Did you hope that wasn't true business. Did you hope that wasn't true at the time at the very beginning? at the time at the very beginning? at the time at the very beginning? >> No, I just think we grew really fast on, >> No, I just think we grew really fast on, >> No, I just think we grew really fast on, you know, large customer brand advert. you know, large customer brand advert. you know, large customer brand advert. They can move dollars very very rapidly, They can move dollars very very rapidly, They can move dollars very very rapidly, right? That's one of the the benefits. right? That's one of the the benefits. right? That's one of the the benefits. You know, if you're working with a large You know, if you're working with a large You know, if you're working with a large customer, they can move, you know, customer, they can move, you know, customer, they can move, you know, millions of of dollars very quickly. If millions of of dollars very quickly. If millions of of dollars very quickly. If you have a couple hundred of those you have a couple hundred of those you have a couple hundred of those customers, you can build a very large customers, you can build a very large customers, you can build a very large advertising business very quickly. The advertising business very quickly. The advertising business very quickly. The question is like how do you build a question is like how do you build a question is like how do you build a diversified diversified diversified very very big one over time? very very big one over time? very very big one over time? >> Okay. So, you can get big, but you can't >> Okay. So, you can get big, but you can't >> Okay. So, you can get big, but you can't get huge without it. Oh, okay. And you get huge without it. Oh, okay. And you get huge without it. Oh, okay. And you needed to get big at that like you that needed to get big at that like you that needed to get big at that like you that was like almost like stage one. You had was like almost like stage one. You had was like almost like stage one. You had to do it that way. to do it that way. to do it that way. >> And and I'd say almost all these >> And and I'd say almost all these >> And and I'd say almost all these platforms stage one looks like that. platforms stage one looks like that. platforms stage one looks like that. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Right. I mean even Facebook in the early >> Right. I mean even Facebook in the early >> Right. I mean even Facebook in the early days it was display advertising, right? days it was display advertising, right? days it was display advertising, right? Um and then over time they built out way Um and then over time they built out way Um and then over time they built out way more advanced systems optimizing against more advanced systems optimizing against more advanced systems optimizing against lowerfunnel goals. I'd argue like a a lowerfunnel goals. I'd argue like a a lowerfunnel goals. I'd argue like a a Reddit or a Pinterest today. I mean, you Reddit or a Pinterest today. I mean, you Reddit or a Pinterest today. I mean, you know, to some degree Pinterest is know, to some degree Pinterest is know, to some degree Pinterest is building out lowerfunnel objectives and building out lowerfunnel objectives and building out lowerfunnel objectives and this kind of thing, but a lot of it is this kind of thing, but a lot of it is this kind of thing, but a lot of it is still, you know, large customer still, you know, large customer still, you know, large customer upperfunnel dollars. So, I' I'd say upperfunnel dollars. So, I' I'd say upperfunnel dollars. So, I' I'd say almost all ad platforms start with that almost all ad platforms start with that almost all ad platforms start with that because you can grow very quickly. Uh, because you can grow very quickly. Uh, because you can grow very quickly. Uh, and then you use that to invest in and then you use that to invest in and then you use that to invest in building out much more sophisticated building out much more sophisticated building out much more sophisticated systems. Yeah. And at the beginning, you systems. Yeah. And at the beginning, you systems. Yeah. And at the beginning, you said you you really thought you were said you you really thought you were said you you really thought you were building a messaging app, not a social building a messaging app, not a social building a messaging app, not a social network. You studied the way messaging network. You studied the way messaging network. You studied the way messaging apps in other countries monetized. I apps in other countries monetized. I apps in other countries monetized. I feel like you have a lot of soul and so feel like you have a lot of soul and so feel like you have a lot of soul and so you would prefer I don't know if you can you would prefer I don't know if you can you would prefer I don't know if you can say this but you would prefer almost if say this but you would prefer almost if say this but you would prefer almost if you had like an all subscription you had like an all subscription you had like an all subscription business because the incentives are more business because the incentives are more business because the incentives are more aligned. I really love the subscription aligned. I really love the subscription aligned. I really love the subscription business. I wish we had done it earlier. business. I wish we had done it earlier. business. I wish we had done it earlier. I I just I love it. I love the direct I I just I love it. I love the direct I I just I love it. I love the direct connection to our customers. Um I love connection to our customers. Um I love connection to our customers. Um I love that it's directly related to the value that it's directly related to the value that it's directly related to the value that we provide them. And I think it's that we provide them. And I think it's that we provide them. And I think it's been really exciting to see that like been really exciting to see that like been really exciting to see that like you know I think unlike some of these you know I think unlike some of these you know I think unlike some of these other internet services, people are other internet services, people are other internet services, people are getting a ton of value from Snapchat. so getting a ton of value from Snapchat. so getting a ton of value from Snapchat. so much so they're willing to pay for it, much so they're willing to pay for it, much so they're willing to pay for it, right? And I think that's that's uh you right? And I think that's that's uh you right? And I think that's that's uh you know, it's also a sign to me that we're know, it's also a sign to me that we're know, it's also a sign to me that we're building something that that's valuable. building something that that's valuable. building something that that's valuable. >> I spent a lot of time with the Spotify >> I spent a lot of time with the Spotify >> I spent a lot of time with the Spotify team, Daniel, Gustaf, Alex, the top team, Daniel, Gustaf, Alex, the top team, Daniel, Gustaf, Alex, the top three three people there and they just three three people there and they just three three people there and they just have this like soul in the game and have this like soul in the game and have this like soul in the game and they're really trying to build an app. they're really trying to build an app. they're really trying to build an app. Their whole thing is just like when Their whole thing is just like when Their whole thing is just like when you're done using Spotify, do you feel you're done using Spotify, do you feel you're done using Spotify, do you feel good? good? good? >> And I'm like, well, you know, I spent an >> And I'm like, well, you know, I spent an >> And I'm like, well, you know, I spent an hour listening to music, I feel great. I hour listening to music, I feel great. I hour listening to music, I feel great. I spent an hour listening to, you know, spent an hour listening to, you know, spent an hour listening to, you know, founders podcast or any other podcast. I founders podcast or any other podcast. I founders podcast or any other podcast. I feel great. Now they have audio books. feel great. Now they have audio books. feel great. Now they have audio books. Do you feel great? They're actually try. Do you feel great? They're actually try. Do you feel great? They're actually try. It wouldn't have worked any other way. It wouldn't have worked any other way. It wouldn't have worked any other way. Like they obviously have some they have Like they obviously have some they have Like they obviously have some they have somewhat of an ad business, but I think somewhat of an ad business, but I think somewhat of an ad business, but I think they they told me they're um the second they they told me they're um the second they they told me they're um the second most paid subscribers in uh the world, I most paid subscribers in uh the world, I most paid subscribers in uh the world, I think, behind Netflix. And you know, think, behind Netflix. And you know, think, behind Netflix. And you know, they did that in a relatively short they did that in a relatively short they did that in a relatively short amount of time. Like I'm friends with amount of time. Like I'm friends with amount of time. Like I'm friends with Jimmy I was on the the show and he told Jimmy I was on the the show and he told Jimmy I was on the the show and he told me some outlandish [ __ ] He's just like, me some outlandish [ __ ] He's just like, me some outlandish [ __ ] He's just like, "When Apple bought us, Spotify only had "When Apple bought us, Spotify only had "When Apple bought us, Spotify only had 3 million paid subscriber. I want to 3 million paid subscriber. I want to 3 million paid subscriber. I want to take a run at them." And now they think take a run at them." And now they think take a run at them." And now they think of like 250 million. But there is of like 250 million. But there is of like 250 million. But there is something about like if you do have this something about like if you do have this something about like if you do have this soul, if you are trying to put something soul, if you are trying to put something soul, if you are trying to put something good into the world that is not just good into the world that is not just good into the world that is not just trying to maximize usage, you know, on trying to maximize usage, you know, on trying to maximize usage, you know, on an app that's not good for you, it's an app that's not good for you, it's an app that's not good for you, it's just more enlightened. I I didn't ask just more enlightened. I I didn't ask just more enlightened. I I didn't ask you that before, but I just got that you that before, but I just got that you that before, but I just got that that the sense that that's uh that's how that the sense that that's uh that's how that the sense that that's uh that's how you were. You have any idea the size you were. You have any idea the size you were. You have any idea the size that you think it could get to? Because that you think it could get to? Because that you think it could get to? Because you have how many page? You said 20 you have how many page? You said 20 you have how many page? You said 20 >> 25 million subs >> 25 million subs >> 25 million subs >> over what when and when did you like >> over what when and when did you like >> over what when and when did you like start it? start it? start it? >> Was that two three years ago? Something >> Was that two three years ago? Something >> Was that two three years ago? Something like that. like that. like that. >> Still, it's it's pretty goddamn fast. >> Still, it's it's pretty goddamn fast. >> Still, it's it's pretty goddamn fast. >> Let's see. You know, I'm excited. It's >> Let's see. You know, I'm excited. It's >> Let's see. You know, I'm excited. It's obviously grown quite rapidly and I obviously grown quite rapidly and I obviously grown quite rapidly and I think it'd be a big a big uh revenue think it'd be a big a big uh revenue think it'd be a big a big uh revenue driver for us. driver for us. driver for us. >> All right, let's go back to the more >> All right, let's go back to the more >> All right, let's go back to the more difficult times in Snapchat's history. I difficult times in Snapchat's history. I difficult times in Snapchat's history. I want to know more about this like trench want to know more about this like trench want to know more about this like trench warfare. That's a great line that you warfare. That's a great line that you warfare. That's a great line that you had. had. had. I think given that we're up against such I think given that we're up against such I think given that we're up against such large monopolistic large monopolistic large monopolistic competitors, like every day is a fight. competitors, like every day is a fight. competitors, like every day is a fight. Every day is about putting one foot in Every day is about putting one foot in Every day is about putting one foot in front of the other because they just front of the other because they just front of the other because they just have so much scale. And I think for us, have so much scale. And I think for us, have so much scale. And I think for us, you know, creativity has been you know, creativity has been you know, creativity has been historically the force multiplier that's historically the force multiplier that's historically the force multiplier that's allowed us to break through and take allowed us to break through and take allowed us to break through and take ground, right? Um, but I think as I look ground, right? Um, but I think as I look ground, right? Um, but I think as I look towards the future, what makes me so towards the future, what makes me so towards the future, what makes me so excited and that, you know, the reason excited and that, you know, the reason excited and that, you know, the reason why I brought that up is like creativity why I brought that up is like creativity why I brought that up is like creativity combined with AI should allow us to move combined with AI should allow us to move combined with AI should allow us to move incredibly quickly in this environment incredibly quickly in this environment incredibly quickly in this environment and overcome a lot of the resource and overcome a lot of the resource and overcome a lot of the resource constraints that we've had historically. constraints that we've had historically. constraints that we've had historically. And and that's something that that's And and that's something that that's And and that's something that that's really different about, you know, the really different about, you know, the really different about, you know, the next decade for for Snap. next decade for for Snap. next decade for for Snap. >> Do you ever foresee the hardware being a >> Do you ever foresee the hardware being a >> Do you ever foresee the hardware being a separate business? separate business? separate business? >> It essentially is. So, it's it's a >> It essentially is. So, it's it's a >> It essentially is. So, it's it's a wholly owned subsidiary today. The wholly owned subsidiary today. The wholly owned subsidiary today. The brands themselves, you know, they're brands themselves, you know, they're brands themselves, you know, they're adjacent to one another, but they're adjacent to one another, but they're adjacent to one another, but they're different brands. In many ways, it's a different brands. In many ways, it's a different brands. In many ways, it's a different customer. Um, although not different customer. Um, although not different customer. Um, although not entirely different. So, I I do think entirely different. So, I I do think entirely different. So, I I do think that they'll they'll grow in different that they'll they'll grow in different that they'll they'll grow in different ways uh over time. ways uh over time. ways uh over time. >> Why did you make the decision to start a >> Why did you make the decision to start a >> Why did you make the decision to start a separate company with separate company with separate company with >> the hardware business at its core is >> the hardware business at its core is >> the hardware business at its core is just so different than the internet just so different than the internet just so different than the internet service business that we operate with service business that we operate with service business that we operate with with Snapchat. And you know even with Snapchat. And you know even with Snapchat. And you know even requires a different execution style. requires a different execution style. requires a different execution style. You know with hardware like you cannot You know with hardware like you cannot You know with hardware like you cannot make a mistake right like the things make a mistake right like the things make a mistake right like the things that we are doing today will show up in that we are doing today will show up in that we are doing today will show up in 2 years from now and if we made a 2 years from now and if we made a 2 years from now and if we made a mistake it's a huge problem and it'll mistake it's a huge problem and it'll mistake it's a huge problem and it'll cost us another year or whatever to to cost us another year or whatever to to cost us another year or whatever to to fix it. I mean it's that type of fix it. I mean it's that type of fix it. I mean it's that type of precision and operational rigor is just precision and operational rigor is just precision and operational rigor is just night and day different than Snapchat, night and day different than Snapchat, night and day different than Snapchat, right? Where if like we break something right? Where if like we break something right? Where if like we break something today because we're moving quickly like today because we're moving quickly like today because we're moving quickly like it's fine we'll fix it this afternoon, it's fine we'll fix it this afternoon, it's fine we'll fix it this afternoon, right? It'll and move on. And so right? It'll and move on. And so right? It'll and move on. And so culturally they're very they're they culturally they're very they're they culturally they're very they're they have to be different companies and have to be different companies and have to be different companies and different operating styles. And then I different operating styles. And then I different operating styles. And then I think in terms of think in terms of think in terms of the brand and where we're trying to take the brand and where we're trying to take the brand and where we're trying to take the the specs brand, I think Snapchat the the specs brand, I think Snapchat the the specs brand, I think Snapchat has always tried to be fun and whimsical has always tried to be fun and whimsical has always tried to be fun and whimsical to make sure that you feel comfortable to make sure that you feel comfortable to make sure that you feel comfortable expressing yourself, right? Snapchat expressing yourself, right? Snapchat expressing yourself, right? Snapchat never takes itself too seriously. And never takes itself too seriously. And never takes itself too seriously. And while I don't think Specs is going to while I don't think Specs is going to while I don't think Specs is going to like take itself seriously, uh, you like take itself seriously, uh, you like take itself seriously, uh, you know, necessarily in a way that's like know, necessarily in a way that's like know, necessarily in a way that's like weird or or you know, not true to who we weird or or you know, not true to who we weird or or you know, not true to who we are, what we're trying to do is are, what we're trying to do is are, what we're trying to do is incredibly serious. Um, you know, we are incredibly serious. Um, you know, we are incredibly serious. Um, you know, we are trying to reinvent the computer. We trying to reinvent the computer. We trying to reinvent the computer. We think that the way that people have, you think that the way that people have, you think that the way that people have, you know, and trying to make it more human know, and trying to make it more human know, and trying to make it more human and we think the way that people have and we think the way that people have and we think the way that people have designed computers for the last 50 years designed computers for the last 50 years designed computers for the last 50 years is like robbing us of who we are and is like robbing us of who we are and is like robbing us of who we are and like our humanity. And that people are like our humanity. And that people are like our humanity. And that people are going to want a new type of computer. going to want a new type of computer. going to want a new type of computer. They want a computer that allows them to They want a computer that allows them to They want a computer that allows them to use AI and access AI in different ways use AI and access AI in different ways use AI and access AI in different ways that brings them closer together with that brings them closer together with that brings them closer together with their friends and and and the world. And their friends and and and the world. And their friends and and and the world. And so that vision and mission I think so that vision and mission I think so that vision and mission I think deserves real focus and dedication. And deserves real focus and dedication. And deserves real focus and dedication. And in some ways, while it has shares that in some ways, while it has shares that in some ways, while it has shares that same root and philosophy and idea that same root and philosophy and idea that same root and philosophy and idea that that animates Snapchat, it's approaching that animates Snapchat, it's approaching that animates Snapchat, it's approaching it from a very different perspective. it from a very different perspective. it from a very different perspective. >> When did you in your mind realize that >> When did you in your mind realize that >> When did you in your mind realize that this had to be two separate companies? this had to be two separate companies? this had to be two separate companies? uh in in in a lot of ways they've uh in in in a lot of ways they've uh in in in a lot of ways they've operated se quite separately right they operated se quite separately right they operated se quite separately right they have the same sort of GNA support but have the same sort of GNA support but have the same sort of GNA support but Snap Lab which you know it was the Snap Lab which you know it was the Snap Lab which you know it was the precursor to to Specs Inc. has operated precursor to to Specs Inc. has operated precursor to to Specs Inc. has operated as an independent relatively independent as an independent relatively independent as an independent relatively independent part of of SNAP for for a long time. part of of SNAP for for a long time. part of of SNAP for for a long time. >> Different location, separate not shared >> Different location, separate not shared >> Different location, separate not shared office space. How like explain the office space. How like explain the office space. How like explain the organization? organization? organization? >> You know, nearby in some cases shared >> You know, nearby in some cases shared >> You know, nearby in some cases shared office spaces. Um in some cases office spaces. Um in some cases office spaces. Um in some cases definitely not u depending on what we're definitely not u depending on what we're definitely not u depending on what we're working on, leadership team, all that working on, leadership team, all that working on, leadership team, all that sort of stuff. I think you know sort of stuff. I think you know sort of stuff. I think you know historically has been has been quite historically has been has been quite historically has been has been quite separate. separate. separate. >> Yeah. Did you ever read about I'm I'm >> Yeah. Did you ever read about I'm I'm >> Yeah. Did you ever read about I'm I'm sure you did, but like Steve Jobs was sure you did, but like Steve Jobs was sure you did, but like Steve Jobs was very adamant about when he was inventing very adamant about when he was inventing very adamant about when he was inventing something new, it could not be in the something new, it could not be in the something new, it could not be in the same building. Had to be a completely same building. Had to be a completely same building. Had to be a completely different team. I don't think they different team. I don't think they different team. I don't think they separated out, you know, that I don't separated out, you know, that I don't separated out, you know, that I don't think it spun out different like think it spun out different like think it spun out different like entities inside of Apple, but he want entities inside of Apple, but he want entities inside of Apple, but he want he's like you can't even be in the same he's like you can't even be in the same he's like you can't even be in the same building. That was like really really building. That was like really really building. That was like really really important. important. important. >> Yeah, it makes sense to me because I >> Yeah, it makes sense to me because I >> Yeah, it makes sense to me because I think focus is just so critical when think focus is just so critical when think focus is just so critical when you're trying to build something new. you're trying to build something new. you're trying to build something new. >> And differentiation, you don't want, you >> And differentiation, you don't want, you >> And differentiation, you don't want, you know, the opinions of other people know, the opinions of other people know, the opinions of other people outside of, you know, the people working outside of, you know, the people working outside of, you know, the people working on it. What was Snap Lab? on it. What was Snap Lab? on it. What was Snap Lab? Uh, Snap Lab really incubated a lot of Uh, Snap Lab really incubated a lot of Uh, Snap Lab really incubated a lot of the spectacles and specs stuff. the spectacles and specs stuff. the spectacles and specs stuff. >> Why did you make the decision to start >> Why did you make the decision to start >> Why did you make the decision to start something like SnapLab? something like SnapLab? something like SnapLab? >> It was to house all the the hardware >> It was to house all the the hardware >> It was to house all the the hardware development. development. development. >> Okay. So, it's not like SnapLab was >> Okay. So, it's not like SnapLab was >> Okay. So, it's not like SnapLab was created and then you realized, hey, created and then you realized, hey, created and then you realized, hey, let's do hardware. It was the vehicle to let's do hardware. It was the vehicle to let's do hardware. It was the vehicle to do hardware or like do hardware or like do hardware or like >> I think it was sort of concurrent. I >> I think it was sort of concurrent. I >> I think it was sort of concurrent. I mean, when we started working on mean, when we started working on mean, when we started working on spectacles back in the day, that that spectacles back in the day, that that spectacles back in the day, that that was really the genesis of SnapLab. I was really the genesis of SnapLab. I was really the genesis of SnapLab. I mean, that's what it was called mean, that's what it was called mean, that's what it was called initially. Do you still have some kind initially. Do you still have some kind initially. Do you still have some kind of like R&D separate thing to like dream of like R&D separate thing to like dream of like R&D separate thing to like dream up new products or you just only focus up new products or you just only focus up new products or you just only focus on the app and the glasses? You know, on the app and the glasses? You know, on the app and the glasses? You know, one of the things we're thinking a lot one of the things we're thinking a lot one of the things we're thinking a lot about now and and this is sort of what I about now and and this is sort of what I about now and and this is sort of what I mean about the sort of force mean about the sort of force mean about the sort of force multiplication of AI and creativity. multiplication of AI and creativity. multiplication of AI and creativity. Like the core Snapchat business is Like the core Snapchat business is Like the core Snapchat business is really well positioned to launch new app really well positioned to launch new app really well positioned to launch new app categories today, right? Because we have categories today, right? Because we have categories today, right? Because we have a massive amount of distribution. We've a massive amount of distribution. We've a massive amount of distribution. We've got tons of great ideas and brilliant got tons of great ideas and brilliant got tons of great ideas and brilliant creative people and now with AI we creative people and now with AI we creative people and now with AI we actually have the resources to make that actually have the resources to make that actually have the resources to make that possible. So inside of Snapchat today possible. So inside of Snapchat today possible. So inside of Snapchat today and in our design team we're thinking a and in our design team we're thinking a and in our design team we're thinking a lot about what types of new apps and lot about what types of new apps and lot about what types of new apps and services internet services services internet services services internet services >> but a separate app from Snapchat or >> but a separate app from Snapchat or >> but a separate app from Snapchat or >> a separate app from Snapchat but we can >> a separate app from Snapchat but we can >> a separate app from Snapchat but we can use Snapchat as a launchpad for for use Snapchat as a launchpad for for use Snapchat as a launchpad for for these new services because it reaches these new services because it reaches these new services because it reaches almost a billion people. almost a billion people. almost a billion people. >> Do you have any other apps? I don't even >> Do you have any other apps? I don't even >> Do you have any other apps? I don't even know. Uh there's an app called Saturn know. Uh there's an app called Saturn know. Uh there's an app called Saturn which we acquired which is a totally new which we acquired which is a totally new which we acquired which is a totally new way to think of calendaring. So if you way to think of calendaring. So if you way to think of calendaring. So if you if you look at calendars today, not only if you look at calendars today, not only if you look at calendars today, not only are they kind of really entrenched into are they kind of really entrenched into are they kind of really entrenched into like the the business world, but because like the the business world, but because like the the business world, but because they are, it makes it almost impossible they are, it makes it almost impossible they are, it makes it almost impossible to easily share calendars with friends, to easily share calendars with friends, to easily share calendars with friends, right? And it's all and calendars are right? And it's all and calendars are right? And it's all and calendars are all today oriented around email, right? all today oriented around email, right? all today oriented around email, right? Rather than your phone number and your Rather than your phone number and your Rather than your phone number and your text messages, but all of your planning text messages, but all of your planning text messages, but all of your planning and the way that you're working together and the way that you're working together and the way that you're working together with your friends is happening in your with your friends is happening in your with your friends is happening in your text messages, right? And around your text messages, right? And around your text messages, right? And around your phone number. And so the Saturn team has phone number. And so the Saturn team has phone number. And so the Saturn team has had a lot of really great insights about had a lot of really great insights about had a lot of really great insights about what the future of a calendar should what the future of a calendar should what the future of a calendar should look like. And so um that's a separate look like. And so um that's a separate look like. And so um that's a separate app that's now owned by Snapchat that's app that's now owned by Snapchat that's app that's now owned by Snapchat that's in integrated with Snapchat um and gets in integrated with Snapchat um and gets in integrated with Snapchat um and gets distribution through Snapchat but is a distribution through Snapchat but is a distribution through Snapchat but is a standalone service. standalone service. standalone service. >> Why would people use it? Like give me a >> Why would people use it? Like give me a >> Why would people use it? Like give me a use case. use case. use case. >> Because it's a calendar built for your >> Because it's a calendar built for your >> Because it's a calendar built for your friends. So like I it is so difficult. I friends. So like I it is so difficult. I friends. So like I it is so difficult. I mean I don't know if you've experienced mean I don't know if you've experienced mean I don't know if you've experienced this with your partner but with my wife this with your partner but with my wife this with your partner but with my wife like it's so hard to get my work like it's so hard to get my work like it's so hard to get my work calendar to match with her work calendar to match with her work calendar to match with her work calendar. it's like almost impossible. calendar. it's like almost impossible. calendar. it's like almost impossible. And let alone get that to map to our And let alone get that to map to our And let alone get that to map to our 15-year-old's calendar, right? And you 15-year-old's calendar, right? And you 15-year-old's calendar, right? And you know, everything he's got going on after know, everything he's got going on after know, everything he's got going on after school. And so, I think all of a sudden, school. And so, I think all of a sudden, school. And so, I think all of a sudden, there's a solution that like works there's a solution that like works there's a solution that like works really well for our 15-year-old who really well for our 15-year-old who really well for our 15-year-old who doesn't have like a whole corporate doesn't have like a whole corporate doesn't have like a whole corporate email and whatever, but like wants to email and whatever, but like wants to email and whatever, but like wants to share his calendar with with friends, share his calendar with with friends, share his calendar with with friends, right? We can have visibility into each right? We can have visibility into each right? We can have visibility into each other's calendar, and it all works other's calendar, and it all works other's calendar, and it all works centered around your phone and your centered around your phone and your centered around your phone and your mobile number, right? So, it's so it mobile number, right? So, it's so it mobile number, right? So, it's so it actually is a social calendar rather actually is a social calendar rather actually is a social calendar rather than being like a work oriented than being like a work oriented than being like a work oriented calendar. That just makes things easier. calendar. That just makes things easier. calendar. That just makes things easier. How much do you use email How much do you use email How much do you use email >> all the time? >> all the time? >> all the time? >> I push everything to text or WhatsApp. >> I push everything to text or WhatsApp. >> I push everything to text or WhatsApp. >> Really? I push everything to email. >> Really? I push everything to email. >> Really? I push everything to email. >> Oh, well, you probably have like an >> Oh, well, you probably have like an >> Oh, well, you probably have like an army. army. army. >> I use email like text message. >> I use email like text message. >> I use email like text message. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> There's no army. No, I use email like >> There's no army. No, I use email like >> There's no army. No, I use email like text. Yeah. text. Yeah. text. Yeah. >> How do you balance >> How do you balance >> How do you balance focus? You obviously Snapchat's working. focus? You obviously Snapchat's working. focus? You obviously Snapchat's working. The app specs working and will continue The app specs working and will continue The app specs working and will continue to like grow. How do you balance like to like grow. How do you balance like to like grow. How do you balance like inventing new things with with focusing inventing new things with with focusing inventing new things with with focusing on what you already have? Like how do on what you already have? Like how do on what you already have? Like how do you think about that? Are you just you think about that? Are you just you think about that? Are you just that's just you you just need to invent that's just you you just need to invent that's just you you just need to invent new things to just you have like a new things to just you have like a new things to just you have like a compulsion for this? compulsion for this? compulsion for this? >> Um it's it's a it's a really great it's it's a it's a really great question. I see a huge amount of question. I see a huge amount of question. I see a huge amount of opportunity in the the products and opportunity in the the products and opportunity in the the products and services that we have today and I think services that we have today and I think services that we have today and I think we need to continue to constantly we need to continue to constantly we need to continue to constantly iterate and evolve them and make them iterate and evolve them and make them iterate and evolve them and make them better. Um and that ultimately that's better. Um and that ultimately that's better. Um and that ultimately that's what our customers our community what our customers our community what our customers our community expects, right? They want us to expects, right? They want us to expects, right? They want us to constantly innovate for them to, you constantly innovate for them to, you constantly innovate for them to, you know, make their lives their lives know, make their lives their lives know, make their lives their lives better. So I think we have to tirelessly better. So I think we have to tirelessly better. So I think we have to tirelessly do that. At the same point, there's do that. At the same point, there's do that. At the same point, there's nothing more valuable than focus. Like nothing more valuable than focus. Like nothing more valuable than focus. Like focus is, I mean, arguably my primary focus is, I mean, arguably my primary focus is, I mean, arguably my primary role in our company is helping to drive role in our company is helping to drive role in our company is helping to drive focus and prioritization. So I almost focus and prioritization. So I almost focus and prioritization. So I almost don't see them necessarily as as like don't see them necessarily as as like don't see them necessarily as as like tradeoffs, but like as just an ongoing tradeoffs, but like as just an ongoing tradeoffs, but like as just an ongoing part of running our business, right? part of running our business, right? part of running our business, right? Making sure that we're being really Making sure that we're being really Making sure that we're being really clear about focusing on the areas where clear about focusing on the areas where clear about focusing on the areas where we see the biggest opportunity. we see the biggest opportunity. we see the biggest opportunity. >> Yeah. if um somebody would ask as ask me >> Yeah. if um somebody would ask as ask me >> Yeah. if um somebody would ask as ask me like okay you've read 400 of biographies like okay you've read 400 of biographies like okay you've read 400 of biographies on history entrepreneurs they always on history entrepreneurs they always on history entrepreneurs they always want to like give me like a top 10 idea want to like give me like a top 10 idea want to like give me like a top 10 idea list and I was like I can do one better list and I was like I can do one better list and I was like I can do one better I can distill everything down to one I can distill everything down to one I can distill everything down to one single word focus and so while you were single word focus and so while you were single word focus and so while you were talking I was just looking up because I talking I was just looking up because I talking I was just looking up because I save all my notes and highlights for save all my notes and highlights for save all my notes and highlights for every single book I've read I have a every single book I've read I have a every single book I've read I have a personal aa that that is only trained on personal aa that that is only trained on personal aa that that is only trained on all the transcripts for my podcast every all the transcripts for my podcast every all the transcripts for my podcast every single highlight from every book every single highlight from every book every single highlight from every book every single note and Edwin Land one of my single note and Edwin Land one of my single note and Edwin Land one of my favorite quotes of his he says my whole favorite quotes of his he says my whole favorite quotes of his he says my whole life has been spent trying to teach life has been spent trying to teach life has been spent trying to teach people that intense concent people that intense concent people that intense concent concentration for hour after hour can concentration for hour after hour can concentration for hour after hour can bring out in people resources they bring out in people resources they bring out in people resources they didn't know they had. didn't know they had. didn't know they had. >> He was obsessed with focus. >> He was obsessed with focus. >> He was obsessed with focus. >> The reason I asked you this is because >> The reason I asked you this is because >> The reason I asked you this is because you spent any time with Tony from Door you spent any time with Tony from Door you spent any time with Tony from Door Dash. Dash. Dash. >> Not a lot. No. >> Not a lot. No. >> Not a lot. No. >> Okay. We just recorded this intense >> Okay. We just recorded this intense >> Okay. We just recorded this intense conversation and I'm going to have to do conversation and I'm going to have to do conversation and I'm going to have to do it again like every six months because I it again like every six months because I it again like every six months because I still can't. The guy has got so many still can't. The guy has got so many still can't. The guy has got so many ideas. ideas. ideas. >> I don't buy individual stocks. I don't >> I don't buy individual stocks. I don't >> I don't buy individual stocks. I don't really give a [ __ ] about anything about really give a [ __ ] about anything about really give a [ __ ] about anything about making, you know, podcasts and try to do making, you know, podcasts and try to do making, you know, podcasts and try to do this intense focus. So, I don't think this intense focus. So, I don't think this intense focus. So, I don't think about investing. I don't think about about investing. I don't think about about investing. I don't think about anything else. Just do what I'm doing anything else. Just do what I'm doing anything else. Just do what I'm doing every day. Wake up and do it seven days every day. Wake up and do it seven days every day. Wake up and do it seven days a week. But I don't know anything about a week. But I don't know anything about a week. But I don't know anything about the finance of Jordash. All I can tell the finance of Jordash. All I can tell the finance of Jordash. All I can tell you is he's I think 41 years old. I've you is he's I think 41 years old. I've you is he's I think 41 years old. I've never come across another person that never come across another person that never come across another person that gives me like young Jeff Bezos vibes. gives me like young Jeff Bezos vibes. gives me like young Jeff Bezos vibes. And I'm so tempted to just like back up And I'm so tempted to just like back up And I'm so tempted to just like back up the truck. I'm like, I'm just going to the truck. I'm like, I'm just going to the truck. I'm like, I'm just going to vibe. I'm going to vibe invest just vibe. I'm going to vibe invest just vibe. I'm going to vibe invest just because everybody's like, "Oh yeah, you because everybody's like, "Oh yeah, you because everybody's like, "Oh yeah, you know, you got 60% of I think right now know, you got 60% of I think right now know, you got 60% of I think right now he has 60% market share of food he has 60% market share of food he has 60% market share of food delivery." You're out of your goddamn delivery." You're out of your goddamn delivery." You're out of your goddamn mind if you think that that guy is just mind if you think that that guy is just mind if you think that that guy is just thinking about food delivery. He is. thinking about food delivery. He is. thinking about food delivery. He is. He's going to build and he already is. I He's going to build and he already is. I He's going to build and he already is. I think he they launched six new products think he they launched six new products think he they launched six new products including their own hardware. There's including their own hardware. There's including their own hardware. There's something about this conversation that's something about this conversation that's something about this conversation that's reminding me of this where it's just reminding me of this where it's just reminding me of this where it's just like he's going to be focused on, you like he's going to be focused on, you like he's going to be focused on, you know, what they're excellent at, but know, what they're excellent at, but know, what they're excellent at, but he's got grandiose ambitions to the he's got grandiose ambitions to the he's got grandiose ambitions to the point where like just like there's no point where like just like there's no point where like just like there's no way in hell Bezos was going to stick way in hell Bezos was going to stick way in hell Bezos was going to stick with books and CDs and movies. Like he's with books and CDs and movies. Like he's with books and CDs and movies. Like he's it's impossible for that kind of it's impossible for that kind of it's impossible for that kind of personality type to to be that way. Um, personality type to to be that way. Um, personality type to to be that way. Um, so yeah, I was just curious if like you so yeah, I was just curious if like you so yeah, I was just curious if like you if there was something in you that if there was something in you that if there was something in you that you basically like your level of you basically like your level of you basically like your level of ambition. ambition. ambition. >> I think ambition is the wrong word. I do >> I think ambition is the wrong word. I do >> I think ambition is the wrong word. I do think like think like think like >> I think like creation and problem >> I think like creation and problem >> I think like creation and problem solving is really what I solving is really what I solving is really what I what I love to do. what I love to do. what I love to do. >> I think you're right. Ambition is the >> I think you're right. Ambition is the >> I think you're right. Ambition is the wrong word. It's like there's they see a wrong word. It's like there's they see a wrong word. It's like there's they see a series of problems and they think they series of problems and they think they series of problems and they think they can solve it better than anybody else. can solve it better than anybody else. can solve it better than anybody else. >> Yeah. And I I think there's like >> Yeah. And I I think there's like >> Yeah. And I I think there's like something so incredibly gratifying about something so incredibly gratifying about something so incredibly gratifying about doing that. It's awesome, you know, and doing that. It's awesome, you know, and doing that. It's awesome, you know, and to see the way it makes people's lives to see the way it makes people's lives to see the way it makes people's lives better, the way they respond to like better, the way they respond to like better, the way they respond to like that's that's like the best. It's it's that's that's like the best. It's it's that's that's like the best. It's it's awesome. awesome. awesome. >> Your focus basically every day when you >> Your focus basically every day when you >> Your focus basically every day when you wake up is like you're attacking what wake up is like you're attacking what wake up is like you're attacking what you feel is like the biggest problem in you feel is like the biggest problem in you feel is like the biggest problem in Snapchat. Is that how you organize your Snapchat. Is that how you organize your Snapchat. Is that how you organize your day? Like how do you go about this? I day? Like how do you go about this? I day? Like how do you go about this? I heard you on another podcast say that heard you on another podcast say that heard you on another podcast say that like you kind of get turned on. You like you kind of get turned on. You like you kind of get turned on. You didn't use these words, but like you're didn't use these words, but like you're didn't use these words, but like you're like attracted to hard problems. like like attracted to hard problems. like like attracted to hard problems. like you want like difficulty, you want to you want like difficulty, you want to you want like difficulty, you want to spend your time solving the hardest spend your time solving the hardest spend your time solving the hardest problems. problems. problems. >> I think it's absolutely essential for us >> I think it's absolutely essential for us >> I think it's absolutely essential for us to go after solving uh hard problems, to go after solving uh hard problems, to go after solving uh hard problems, especially as we look at like the especially as we look at like the especially as we look at like the long-term success of the the business. I long-term success of the the business. I long-term success of the the business. I think that ultimately like that is where think that ultimately like that is where think that ultimately like that is where value is created. So I think a huge value is created. So I think a huge value is created. So I think a huge amount of what I'm I'm thinking about is amount of what I'm I'm thinking about is amount of what I'm I'm thinking about is like how can we make our community our like how can we make our community our like how can we make our community our customers lives better and you know what customers lives better and you know what customers lives better and you know what are some really really hard problems are some really really hard problems are some really really hard problems that we think we can uniquely solve. that we think we can uniquely solve. that we think we can uniquely solve. >> I meant more about like the existing >> I meant more about like the existing >> I meant more about like the existing problems in like how you spend your time problems in like how you spend your time problems in like how you spend your time how you allocate your time is a better how you allocate your time is a better how you allocate your time is a better word like the existing problems in the word like the existing problems in the word like the existing problems in the business. business. business. >> How do I allocate my time across the >> How do I allocate my time across the >> How do I allocate my time across the existing problem? So, you know, so like existing problem? So, you know, so like existing problem? So, you know, so like like Elon's famous for like what is the like Elon's famous for like what is the like Elon's famous for like what is the the bottleneck here and like I'll find the bottleneck here and like I'll find the bottleneck here and like I'll find out in my entire empire where the out in my entire empire where the out in my entire empire where the bottleneck is. I'm going physically bottleneck is. I'm going physically bottleneck is. I'm going physically there and I'm going to sit there and there and I'm going to sit there and there and I'm going to sit there and like dedicate all our resources. In that like dedicate all our resources. In that like dedicate all our resources. In that essay I told you I I read about the essay I told you I I read about the essay I told you I I read about the history of SpaceX the they they just history of SpaceX the they they just history of SpaceX the they they just there's a NASA guy from NASA um visiting there's a NASA guy from NASA um visiting there's a NASA guy from NASA um visiting SpaceX and they're like like when SpaceX and they're like like when SpaceX and they're like like when there's a problem there's like a flash there's a problem there's like a flash there's a problem there's like a flash mob appears. So Elon has a very specific mob appears. So Elon has a very specific mob appears. So Elon has a very specific way and I heard you on another podcast way and I heard you on another podcast way and I heard you on another podcast saying like you're attracted to saying like you're attracted to saying like you're attracted to problems. I'm just curious like I'm not problems. I'm just curious like I'm not problems. I'm just curious like I'm not talking about problems you could solve talking about problems you could solve talking about problems you could solve like in future product development. I'm like in future product development. I'm like in future product development. I'm saying literally like there's you're saying literally like there's you're saying literally like there's you're running a giant company. There's all running a giant company. There's all running a giant company. There's all kinds of stuff that's not going well. kinds of stuff that's not going well. kinds of stuff that's not going well. >> Yeah. So so my Monday morning for >> Yeah. So so my Monday morning for >> Yeah. So so my Monday morning for example is like two to two and a half example is like two to two and a half example is like two to two and a half hours in the specs business going hours in the specs business going hours in the specs business going through the risks and dependencies red through the risks and dependencies red through the risks and dependencies red yellow you know red orange yellow green yellow you know red orange yellow green yellow you know red orange yellow green what are we doing to solve it right and what are we doing to solve it right and what are we doing to solve it right and what progress are we making and how can what progress are we making and how can what progress are we making and how can I help? I mean, that's the that's that's I help? I mean, that's the that's that's I help? I mean, that's the that's that's how I start my week. how I start my week. how I start my week. >> You and I were looking at this book I I >> You and I were looking at this book I I >> You and I were looking at this book I I gave you before we started recording and gave you before we started recording and gave you before we started recording and it was a photographic history. I think it was a photographic history. I think it was a photographic history. I think it's called like Fearless Genius or it's called like Fearless Genius or it's called like Fearless Genius or something or Ferocious Genius and it's something or Ferocious Genius and it's something or Ferocious Genius and it's about Steve Jobs and you open to a page about Steve Jobs and you open to a page about Steve Jobs and you open to a page and Steve had a [ __ ] list and you're and Steve had a [ __ ] list and you're and Steve had a [ __ ] list and you're like, I have a [ __ ] list too. It's like like, I have a [ __ ] list too. It's like like, I have a [ __ ] list too. It's like the five hardest problems he's got to the five hardest problems he's got to the five hardest problems he's got to solve and there many of them don't have solve and there many of them don't have solve and there many of them don't have solutions yet. So, it's similar to that. solutions yet. So, it's similar to that. solutions yet. So, it's similar to that. >> Yeah. And I think what's most important >> Yeah. And I think what's most important >> Yeah. And I think what's most important for me is creating a culture where for me is creating a culture where for me is creating a culture where people are raising their hand and people are raising their hand and people are raising their hand and bringing those problems early and often, bringing those problems early and often, bringing those problems early and often, right? Like that is missionritical right? Like that is missionritical right? Like that is missionritical across the organization, right? Like we across the organization, right? Like we across the organization, right? Like we can't solve a problem that we don't know can't solve a problem that we don't know can't solve a problem that we don't know about. We can't solve a problem that about. We can't solve a problem that about. We can't solve a problem that someone isn't escalating quickly, you someone isn't escalating quickly, you someone isn't escalating quickly, you know? And so I think it's it's really know? And so I think it's it's really know? And so I think it's it's really beyond just like making sure that we're beyond just like making sure that we're beyond just like making sure that we're staying focused on the the issues that staying focused on the the issues that staying focused on the the issues that we need to get resolved and you know, we need to get resolved and you know, we need to get resolved and you know, launch blockers or whatever they are. launch blockers or whatever they are. launch blockers or whatever they are. Culturally, we have got to make sure Culturally, we have got to make sure Culturally, we have got to make sure that like that is, you know, how the that like that is, you know, how the that like that is, you know, how the team is operating all day, every day team is operating all day, every day team is operating all day, every day throughout the organization. throughout the organization. throughout the organization. >> How do you ensure that information gets >> How do you ensure that information gets >> How do you ensure that information gets to you though? to you though? to you though? >> I think one of the things that's really >> I think one of the things that's really >> I think one of the things that's really I stole this from Walmart, which I I stole this from Walmart, which I I stole this from Walmart, which I thought was great. They have a Friday thought was great. They have a Friday thought was great. They have a Friday meeting called In It to Win It. They meeting called In It to Win It. They meeting called In It to Win It. They have their leaders from across the have their leaders from across the have their leaders from across the company, not just like super senior company, not just like super senior company, not just like super senior leaders, but leaders from across the leaders, but leaders from across the leaders, but leaders from across the company around the world, all get company around the world, all get company around the world, all get together for about an hour and they together for about an hour and they together for about an hour and they essentially raise their hand and say, essentially raise their hand and say, essentially raise their hand and say, "Hey, this shopping cart ball bearing is "Hey, this shopping cart ball bearing is "Hey, this shopping cart ball bearing is not working properly. We got to get this not working properly. We got to get this not working properly. We got to get this thing fixed." Right? And who'sever in thing fixed." Right? And who'sever in thing fixed." Right? And who'sever in charge of the shopping cart ball bearing charge of the shopping cart ball bearing charge of the shopping cart ball bearing can raise their hand and give a response can raise their hand and give a response can raise their hand and give a response or they can say, "I'll get back to you or they can say, "I'll get back to you or they can say, "I'll get back to you or whatever it is." But that's or whatever it is." But that's or whatever it is." But that's multiplied across the entire company. multiplied across the entire company. multiplied across the entire company. And the thing that they found was like And the thing that they found was like And the thing that they found was like their leaders would go out into the, you their leaders would go out into the, you their leaders would go out into the, you know, into stores into the community and know, into stores into the community and know, into stores into the community and they would hear about problems and then they would hear about problems and then they would hear about problems and then they'd solve the problem just for the they'd solve the problem just for the they'd solve the problem just for the store, but they wouldn't solve it for store, but they wouldn't solve it for store, but they wouldn't solve it for the company. And so in it to win it the company. And so in it to win it the company. And so in it to win it allows them to solve these problems allows them to solve these problems allows them to solve these problems companywide. And so we do the same thing companywide. And so we do the same thing companywide. And so we do the same thing for Specs, for Snapchat, like bring the for Specs, for Snapchat, like bring the for Specs, for Snapchat, like bring the problems forward, right? I mean you can problems forward, right? I mean you can problems forward, right? I mean you can also like the even simpler way to do it also like the even simpler way to do it also like the even simpler way to do it I love to just walk around and talk to I love to just walk around and talk to I love to just walk around and talk to our people right and just hear about our people right and just hear about our people right and just hear about what's going on hear about the issues what's going on hear about the issues what's going on hear about the issues impacting them but I think you unless impacting them but I think you unless impacting them but I think you unless you create these like structures and you create these like structures and you create these like structures and processes in the company to actively processes in the company to actively processes in the company to actively surface it and build that culture it's surface it and build that culture it's surface it and build that culture it's hard to it's hard to do that and I think hard to it's hard to do that and I think hard to it's hard to do that and I think you know it's just so important so I you know it's just so important so I you know it's just so important so I heard you describe the design team as heard you describe the design team as heard you describe the design team as like a very flat there's like no like a very flat there's like no like a very flat there's like no hierarchy is the rest of the company hierarchy is the rest of the company hierarchy is the rest of the company like that like how is how do you like that like how is how do you like that like how is how do you actually organize actually organize actually organize >> I'd say the rest of the company is >> I'd say the rest of the company is >> I'd say the rest of the company is certainly flatter than most, but you certainly flatter than most, but you certainly flatter than most, but you know, the design team is actually flat, know, the design team is actually flat, know, the design team is actually flat, right? Uh, everyone's got the same right? Uh, everyone's got the same right? Uh, everyone's got the same title, like that kind of thing. But I title, like that kind of thing. But I title, like that kind of thing. But I think what's so important for Snap is think what's so important for Snap is think what's so important for Snap is that we're like a ruthless meritocracy. that we're like a ruthless meritocracy. that we're like a ruthless meritocracy. You know, we like in the beginning of You know, we like in the beginning of You know, we like in the beginning of the early days, you know, this kind of the early days, you know, this kind of the early days, you know, this kind of silly now, but in the early days, we silly now, but in the early days, we silly now, but in the early days, we would just make up people's titles, like would just make up people's titles, like would just make up people's titles, like just make them hilarious. Like you could just make them hilarious. Like you could just make them hilarious. Like you could come and join Snap and like make up come and join Snap and like make up come and join Snap and like make up whatever you wanted to be called because whatever you wanted to be called because whatever you wanted to be called because the whole point was like, who cares the whole point was like, who cares the whole point was like, who cares about your title? And if you're focused about your title? And if you're focused about your title? And if you're focused on your title, you're focused on like on your title, you're focused on like on your title, you're focused on like the exact wrong thing, right? Like that the exact wrong thing, right? Like that the exact wrong thing, right? Like that like we are going to die if like we are like we are going to die if like we are like we are going to die if like we are a company that's focused on title and a company that's focused on title and a company that's focused on title and hierarchy and you know uh getting ahead, hierarchy and you know uh getting ahead, hierarchy and you know uh getting ahead, right? Rather than focusing on the right? Rather than focusing on the right? Rather than focusing on the customer. I mean I think that's like a customer. I mean I think that's like a customer. I mean I think that's like a huge huge problem. So I'd say like the huge huge problem. So I'd say like the huge huge problem. So I'd say like the the company Yeah. of course you know we the company Yeah. of course you know we the company Yeah. of course you know we we've got great leaders. We invest a lot we've got great leaders. We invest a lot we've got great leaders. We invest a lot in our leaders. But one of the things in our leaders. But one of the things in our leaders. But one of the things that I think makes Snap so unique is that I think makes Snap so unique is that I think makes Snap so unique is like no matter who you are, where you like no matter who you are, where you like no matter who you are, where you are in the company, you can have a huge are in the company, you can have a huge are in the company, you can have a huge outsiz impact. I mean it was it was fun. outsiz impact. I mean it was it was fun. outsiz impact. I mean it was it was fun. I I got some great like intern feedback. I I got some great like intern feedback. I I got some great like intern feedback. one of our interns like came to me and one of our interns like came to me and one of our interns like came to me and was like, you know, it's funny like I was like, you know, it's funny like I was like, you know, it's funny like I came to Snap and like wasn't even really came to Snap and like wasn't even really came to Snap and like wasn't even really clear like who my manager or leader was clear like who my manager or leader was clear like who my manager or leader was because everyone was so helpful and because everyone was so helpful and because everyone was so helpful and everyone was like guiding me and everyone was like guiding me and everyone was like guiding me and providing mentorship and working providing mentorship and working providing mentorship and working together with me. And so I think that together with me. And so I think that together with me. And so I think that sort of like one team feeling is is sort of like one team feeling is is sort of like one team feeling is is really important. really important. really important. >> So how do you make sure that anybody in >> So how do you make sure that anybody in >> So how do you make sure that anybody in the company can make a major impact the company can make a major impact the company can make a major impact though? though? though? >> First of all, setting that expectation >> First of all, setting that expectation >> First of all, setting that expectation like that's that's what we expect at like that's that's what we expect at like that's that's what we expect at Snap. It's not just like you know that Snap. It's not just like you know that Snap. It's not just like you know that we try to enable it. That's like if you we try to enable it. That's like if you we try to enable it. That's like if you see a problem and you can fix it, you see a problem and you can fix it, you see a problem and you can fix it, you can solve it, like we're going to can solve it, like we're going to can solve it, like we're going to celebrate that and lift that up and not celebrate that and lift that up and not celebrate that and lift that up and not be precious like oh this is my thing, my be precious like oh this is my thing, my be precious like oh this is my thing, my territory. Like that's that that is I territory. Like that's that that is I territory. Like that's that that is I think you know I think people respond think you know I think people respond think you know I think people respond really negatively to that in our in our really negatively to that in our in our really negatively to that in our in our culture. So I think you know sometimes culture. So I think you know sometimes culture. So I think you know sometimes that creates problems because the swim that creates problems because the swim that creates problems because the swim lanes are less clear. I mean people are lanes are less clear. I mean people are lanes are less clear. I mean people are solving problems across the organization solving problems across the organization solving problems across the organization across teams are working together and I across teams are working together and I across teams are working together and I think um you know just making sure that think um you know just making sure that think um you know just making sure that we have culture and leaders who are we have culture and leaders who are we have culture and leaders who are rewarding that and reinforcing that rewarding that and reinforcing that rewarding that and reinforcing that behavior is so important. behavior is so important. behavior is so important. >> Have you studied how Jensen organized >> Have you studied how Jensen organized >> Have you studied how Jensen organized his company his company his company >> not in depth I mean you would you would >> not in depth I mean you would you would >> not in depth I mean you would you would be the expert I'm sure be the expert I'm sure be the expert I'm sure >> not nearly but I did do two podcasts on >> not nearly but I did do two podcasts on >> not nearly but I did do two podcasts on them. There's a great book called Nvidia them. There's a great book called Nvidia them. There's a great book called Nvidia way uh that goes into this but yeah I way uh that goes into this but yeah I way uh that goes into this but yeah I haven't found anybody else that at that haven't found anybody else that at that haven't found anybody else that at that especially at that size that has like a especially at that size that has like a especially at that size that has like a completely flat you know as as flat an completely flat you know as as flat an completely flat you know as as flat an organization as possible. Um, I think organization as possible. Um, I think organization as possible. Um, I think he's got like 60 direct reports. Like, I he's got like 60 direct reports. Like, I he's got like 60 direct reports. Like, I mean, it's pretty wild. And he describes mean, it's pretty wild. And he describes mean, it's pretty wild. And he describes this as like people are worried about this as like people are worried about this as like people are worried about like being able to manage like AI that's like being able to manage like AI that's like being able to manage like AI that's smarter than them and AI agents that are smarter than them and AI agents that are smarter than them and AI agents that are smarter than me. He's like, I do this smarter than me. He's like, I do this smarter than me. He's like, I do this every day. All my 60 direct reports are every day. All my 60 direct reports are every day. All my 60 direct reports are smarter than me in their domain and I'm smarter than me in their domain and I'm smarter than me in their domain and I'm going to be able to manage them and going to be able to manage them and going to be able to manage them and orchestrate them perfectly. It's just orchestrate them perfectly. It's just orchestrate them perfectly. It's just it's like very fascinating. Like I'm it's like very fascinating. Like I'm it's like very fascinating. Like I'm always curious. Again, I think the the always curious. Again, I think the the always curious. Again, I think the the founder led companies are a reflection founder led companies are a reflection founder led companies are a reflection of the personality of the founder. like of the personality of the founder. like of the personality of the founder. like the founder is the guardian of the the founder is the guardian of the the founder is the guardian of the company's soul and it only works if it company's soul and it only works if it company's soul and it only works if it is like built around who you are and the is like built around who you are and the is like built around who you are and the philosophy that you have. philosophy that you have. philosophy that you have. >> Yeah. And I think you know generally >> Yeah. And I think you know generally >> Yeah. And I think you know generally speaking I would expect the world to speaking I would expect the world to speaking I would expect the world to move towards flatter structures and much move towards flatter structures and much move towards flatter structures and much larger spans of control because like the larger spans of control because like the larger spans of control because like the communication and organization tax today communication and organization tax today communication and organization tax today is like night and day what it was 20 or is like night and day what it was 20 or is like night and day what it was 20 or 30 years ago. Like so I think companies 30 years ago. Like so I think companies 30 years ago. Like so I think companies are still thinking in this like sort of are still thinking in this like sort of are still thinking in this like sort of industrial mentality where communication industrial mentality where communication industrial mentality where communication was very high friction. that doesn't was very high friction. that doesn't was very high friction. that doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of the way make a lot of sense in terms of the way make a lot of sense in terms of the way that companies are organized and that companies are organized and that companies are organized and operated today. So I I would imagine operated today. So I I would imagine operated today. So I I would imagine that more people will move to much much that more people will move to much much that more people will move to much much wider spans of control, much flatter wider spans of control, much flatter wider spans of control, much flatter organizations and I think that'll be organizations and I think that'll be organizations and I think that'll be helpful. I'm not really interested in helpful. I'm not really interested in helpful. I'm not really interested in people's first company. I'm interested people's first company. I'm interested people's first company. I'm interested in their last company is you feel like in their last company is you feel like in their last company is you feel like this is your life's work. This is your this is your life's work. This is your this is your life's work. This is your last company. last company. last company. >> I think Specs is probably >> I think Specs is probably >> I think Specs is probably my last company. I would I would guess. my last company. I would I would guess. my last company. I would I would guess. I always said I would never do it again I always said I would never do it again I always said I would never do it again and now I find myself doing it again and now I find myself doing it again and now I find myself doing it again with specs and uh it's just you know I I with specs and uh it's just you know I I with specs and uh it's just you know I I hope that like in the not too distant hope that like in the not too distant hope that like in the not too distant future I can also think about more ways future I can also think about more ways future I can also think about more ways to like give back to society. I mean our to like give back to society. I mean our to like give back to society. I mean our family does a lot. We have like a family family does a lot. We have like a family family does a lot. We have like a family fund. We've got you know the SNAP fund. We've got you know the SNAP fund. We've got you know the SNAP foundation. We like are constantly foundation. We like are constantly foundation. We like are constantly thinking about how to you know support thinking about how to you know support thinking about how to you know support LA uh you know and and hopefully in the LA uh you know and and hopefully in the LA uh you know and and hopefully in the future like you know more broadly. I future like you know more broadly. I future like you know more broadly. I love charity, but the best way to be love charity, but the best way to be love charity, but the best way to be charity is to build a company and a charity is to build a company and a charity is to build a company and a product to make somebody else's life product to make somebody else's life product to make somebody else's life better. better. better. >> I think that's like one way to >> I think that's like one way to >> I think that's like one way to contribute for sure. Um, but I think contribute for sure. Um, but I think contribute for sure. Um, but I think like I think there are lots of ways to like I think there are lots of ways to like I think there are lots of ways to to contribute to making the world to contribute to making the world to contribute to making the world better. And and I think um I think specs better. And and I think um I think specs better. And and I think um I think specs like the biggest problem that I see like the biggest problem that I see like the biggest problem that I see today is people spending seven or eight today is people spending seven or eight today is people spending seven or eight hours a day on their computer and hours a day on their computer and hours a day on their computer and spending their life operating a spending their life operating a spending their life operating a computer. I think that is like a computer. I think that is like a computer. I think that is like a disaster for our society and I think disaster for our society and I think disaster for our society and I think like we have to change that. uh and if like we have to change that. uh and if like we have to change that. uh and if we don't like we are headed in a really we don't like we are headed in a really we don't like we are headed in a really bad direction. So I think specs just if bad direction. So I think specs just if bad direction. So I think specs just if we can attack that problem and even we can attack that problem and even we can attack that problem and even shift two hours of the eight hours a day shift two hours of the eight hours a day shift two hours of the eight hours a day you're spending hunched over like this you're spending hunched over like this you're spending hunched over like this to you looking out at the world and to you looking out at the world and to you looking out at the world and going for a walk and spending time with going for a walk and spending time with going for a walk and spending time with your friends and playing together with your friends and playing together with your friends and playing together with them like that that's massive for the them like that that's massive for the them like that that's massive for the world. So I think like I really want to world. So I think like I really want to world. So I think like I really want to like land the solution to that problem like land the solution to that problem like land the solution to that problem for sure, but I think like there's a lot for sure, but I think like there's a lot for sure, but I think like there's a lot of problems out there and I think um you of problems out there and I think um you of problems out there and I think um you know over a longer period of time I I know over a longer period of time I I know over a longer period of time I I want to think about like more ways that want to think about like more ways that want to think about like more ways that I can make an impact. I can make an impact. I can make an impact. >> You just reminded me I want to go back >> You just reminded me I want to go back >> You just reminded me I want to go back to this interesting decision for you to to this interesting decision for you to to this interesting decision for you to go in on AR at a time when almost go in on AR at a time when almost go in on AR at a time when almost everybody was thinking that VR was the everybody was thinking that VR was the everybody was thinking that VR was the path. And I've heard some funny uh uh path. And I've heard some funny uh uh path. And I've heard some funny uh uh you you you say some funny things about you you you say some funny things about you you you say some funny things about that. But so don't let me forget that. I that. But so don't let me forget that. I that. But so don't let me forget that. I guess this line of questioning that I'm guess this line of questioning that I'm guess this line of questioning that I'm on right now is really what I'm trying on right now is really what I'm trying on right now is really what I'm trying to get to is just like you're famous for to get to is just like you're famous for to get to is just like you're famous for turning down billions and billions of turning down billions and billions of turning down billions and billions of dollars real fast to sell the company. I dollars real fast to sell the company. I dollars real fast to sell the company. I think the book that I read on you eight think the book that I read on you eight think the book that I read on you eight years ago was called how to turn down a years ago was called how to turn down a years ago was called how to turn down a billion dollars or some they made billion dollars or some they made billion dollars or some they made reference to it. trying to get to like reference to it. trying to get to like reference to it. trying to get to like what is motivating you like you know I I what is motivating you like you know I I what is motivating you like you know I I study entrepreneurship obviously my study entrepreneurship obviously my study entrepreneurship obviously my entire life is founders every during the entire life is founders every during the entire life is founders every during the day I make founders podcast at night I day I make founders podcast at night I day I make founders podcast at night I hang out with founders this my whole hang out with founders this my whole hang out with founders this my whole life and I think the common life and I think the common life and I think the common misconception is that entrepreneurs are misconception is that entrepreneurs are misconception is that entrepreneurs are driven by money and I would argue driven by money and I would argue driven by money and I would argue they're driven by control and if you're they're driven by control and if you're they're driven by control and if you're talented and you want to build a product talented and you want to build a product talented and you want to build a product that makes else life better and you that makes else life better and you that makes else life better and you maintain control you wind up with money maintain control you wind up with money maintain control you wind up with money anyways but their primary motivation is anyways but their primary motivation is anyways but their primary motivation is not money clearly your primary not money clearly your primary not money clearly your primary motivation was not money I think there's motivation was not money I think there's motivation was not money I think there's a line in the book said that you would a line in the book said that you would a line in the book said that you would never work for anybody else like take us never work for anybody else like take us never work for anybody else like take us through the decision of just like I through the decision of just like I through the decision of just like I don't give a [ __ ] about your billions of don't give a [ __ ] about your billions of don't give a [ __ ] about your billions of dollars. I want to do this. dollars. I want to do this. dollars. I want to do this. Well, I think Well, I think Well, I think you know I would never like you know I would never like you know I would never like underestimate the fact that like Bobby underestimate the fact that like Bobby underestimate the fact that like Bobby our investors were smart. They allowed our investors were smart. They allowed our investors were smart. They allowed Bobby and I to both sell 10 million Bobby and I to both sell 10 million Bobby and I to both sell 10 million bucks of stock very early on. Obviously bucks of stock very early on. Obviously bucks of stock very early on. Obviously that would have been worth maybe a lot that would have been worth maybe a lot that would have been worth maybe a lot more now but like but very early on more now but like but very early on more now but like but very early on which meant that like you know we were which meant that like you know we were which meant that like you know we were able to see a just you know support a able to see a just you know support a able to see a just you know support a family buy a house like whatever it was family buy a house like whatever it was family buy a house like whatever it was right so I think like very early on right so I think like very early on right so I think like very early on money like was no longer a consideration money like was no longer a consideration money like was no longer a consideration >> but 10 million is not a billion >> but 10 million is not a billion >> but 10 million is not a billion >> but 10 million is more than enough money >> but 10 million is more than enough money >> but 10 million is more than enough money to live a really great comfortable to live a really great comfortable to live a really great comfortable >> life you see what I mean here like it's >> life you see what I mean here like it's >> life you see what I mean here like it's still an unusual still an unusual still an unusual >> decision on your part especially when >> decision on your part especially when >> decision on your part especially when you were how old were you when you make you were how old were you when you make you were how old were you when you make the first time you turned down a the first time you turned down a the first time you turned down a multi-billion another acquisition offer multi-billion another acquisition offer multi-billion another acquisition offer >> probably 20 I don't know you know long >> probably 20 I don't know you know long >> probably 20 I don't know you know long young 20s yeah young 20s yeah young 20s yeah >> okay don't downplay like that's another >> okay don't downplay like that's another >> okay don't downplay like that's another see we've we've gone over a series of see we've we've gone over a series of see we've we've gone over a series of unusual decisions that you keep making unusual decisions that you keep making unusual decisions that you keep making so like explain to me like why I so like explain to me like why I so like explain to me like why I wouldn't do it either like I'd hope I wouldn't do it either like I'd hope I wouldn't do it either like I'd hope I wouldn't do it because my I guess my the wouldn't do it because my I guess my the wouldn't do it because my I guess my the work I'm trying to do on founders work I'm trying to do on founders work I'm trying to do on founders podcast to give you like I I want to podcast to give you like I I want to podcast to give you like I I want to like to the degree that there is any like to the degree that there is any like to the degree that there is any influence that the podcast has on future influence that the podcast has on future influence that the podcast has on future generations entrepreneurs it's like generations entrepreneurs it's like generations entrepreneurs it's like right now the entre entrepreneurship right now the entre entrepreneurship right now the entre entrepreneurship ecosystem. They celebrate because the ecosystem. They celebrate because the ecosystem. They celebrate because the incentive structure is [ __ ] up. They incentive structure is [ __ ] up. They incentive structure is [ __ ] up. They celebrate start, scale, sell. celebrate start, scale, sell. celebrate start, scale, sell. >> You started, you scaled, you didn't >> You started, you scaled, you didn't >> You started, you scaled, you didn't sell. The 400 biographies I there's not sell. The 400 biographies I there's not sell. The 400 biographies I there's not a single biography that I've read where a single biography that I've read where a single biography that I've read where it's like guy started a company, two it's like guy started a company, two it's like guy started a company, two years later, he sold it for billions of years later, he sold it for billions of years later, he sold it for billions of dollars and he spent the rest of his dollars and he spent the rest of his dollars and he spent the rest of his life as a as an investor. I'm sorry, life as a as an investor. I'm sorry, life as a as an investor. I'm sorry, almost throw up in my mouth at the almost throw up in my mouth at the almost throw up in my mouth at the thought of this. They don't write books thought of this. They don't write books thought of this. They don't write books about that. Why did you take yourself about that. Why did you take yourself about that. Why did you take yourself out of the game? Like the whole point out of the game? Like the whole point out of the game? Like the whole point like Elon's the richest person on the like Elon's the richest person on the like Elon's the richest person on the planet. You think he'd ever do that? No. planet. You think he'd ever do that? No. planet. You think he'd ever do that? No. He like puts his chips back in there. He He like puts his chips back in there. He He like puts his chips back in there. He wants to build [ __ ] wants to build [ __ ] wants to build [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is what one of the things I admire >> This is what one of the things I admire >> This is what one of the things I admire about you. So like what how the hell do about you. So like what how the hell do about you. So like what how the hell do you make that decision at 22, 23, 24? you make that decision at 22, 23, 24? you make that decision at 22, 23, 24? >> Well, I think we we loved what we were >> Well, I think we we loved what we were >> Well, I think we we loved what we were doing. I mean, Bobby and I just loved doing. I mean, Bobby and I just loved doing. I mean, Bobby and I just loved working together. We loved making stuff. working together. We loved making stuff. working together. We loved making stuff. We saw a huge opportunity for the We saw a huge opportunity for the We saw a huge opportunity for the service. And fundamentally, the service service. And fundamentally, the service service. And fundamentally, the service was so different than what else was out was so different than what else was out was so different than what else was out there. And it was very clear that like there. And it was very clear that like there. And it was very clear that like we would have had to compromise on our we would have had to compromise on our we would have had to compromise on our vision and values if we sold the vision and values if we sold the vision and values if we sold the company. I mean, you think about almost company. I mean, you think about almost company. I mean, you think about almost every choice was the opposite of what every choice was the opposite of what every choice was the opposite of what was happening at the time, right? It was was happening at the time, right? It was was happening at the time, right? It was like permanent public social media on a like permanent public social media on a like permanent public social media on a feed. We were doing like private feed. We were doing like private feed. We were doing like private messaging, private ephemeral messaging, messaging, private ephemeral messaging, messaging, private ephemeral messaging, right? Uh no public likes and comments, right? Uh no public likes and comments, right? Uh no public likes and comments, right, with like opening into the right, with like opening into the right, with like opening into the camera, not a feed, investing in things camera, not a feed, investing in things camera, not a feed, investing in things like augmented reality when everyone was like augmented reality when everyone was like augmented reality when everyone was investing in virtual reality, thinking investing in virtual reality, thinking investing in virtual reality, thinking that people were actually going to like that people were actually going to like that people were actually going to like wear a TV on their face. Like it's wear a TV on their face. Like it's wear a TV on their face. Like it's insane. Like it was insane. And I think insane. Like it was insane. And I think insane. Like it was insane. And I think like you it makes no sense. And I think like you it makes no sense. And I think like you it makes no sense. And I think like we looked at that and we were like like we looked at that and we were like like we looked at that and we were like wow like you know if that like if that's wow like you know if that like if that's wow like you know if that like if that's like the direction people want to go like the direction people want to go like the direction people want to go like that's scary for the world. Now like that's scary for the world. Now like that's scary for the world. Now it's great in many ways that like all of it's great in many ways that like all of it's great in many ways that like all of these services have adopted our these services have adopted our these services have adopted our inventions. I mean when we talked about inventions. I mean when we talked about inventions. I mean when we talked about I mean in 2012 I 2013 the importance of I mean in 2012 I 2013 the importance of I mean in 2012 I 2013 the importance of privacy people looked at us like we were privacy people looked at us like we were privacy people looked at us like we were insane. I mean literally they were like insane. I mean literally they were like insane. I mean literally they were like what are you talking about privacy? Like what are you talking about privacy? Like what are you talking about privacy? Like what like that remember that was like what like that remember that was like what like that remember that was like the the world remember Mark Zuckerberg the the world remember Mark Zuckerberg the the world remember Mark Zuckerberg being like the world's going to be open being like the world's going to be open being like the world's going to be open and connected. Everyone's going to share and connected. Everyone's going to share and connected. Everyone's going to share everything. like what like and it was everything. like what like and it was everything. like what like and it was just so wrong in terms of the direction just so wrong in terms of the direction just so wrong in terms of the direction of the world and like what people of the world and like what people of the world and like what people actually wanted. And so I think like you actually wanted. And so I think like you actually wanted. And so I think like you could imagine a world without Snapchat, could imagine a world without Snapchat, could imagine a world without Snapchat, without these inventions like I think without these inventions like I think without these inventions like I think the world would be like a a worse place. the world would be like a a worse place. the world would be like a a worse place. You it's so it's so interesting right You it's so it's so interesting right You it's so it's so interesting right now there's a lot of concern about now there's a lot of concern about now there's a lot of concern about social media and the way that it makes social media and the way that it makes social media and the way that it makes people feel, right? What's fascinating people feel, right? What's fascinating people feel, right? What's fascinating is when Snapchat is studied separately is when Snapchat is studied separately is when Snapchat is studied separately from social media, there's study after from social media, there's study after from social media, there's study after study, independent studies that show study, independent studies that show study, independent studies that show that Snapchat makes a positive impact on that Snapchat makes a positive impact on that Snapchat makes a positive impact on people's friendships, on their people's friendships, on their people's friendships, on their well-being. That is fundamentally well-being. That is fundamentally well-being. That is fundamentally different from social media because in different from social media because in different from social media because in those same studies, it shows that those same studies, it shows that those same studies, it shows that Instagram, Tik Tok, whatever, make Instagram, Tik Tok, whatever, make Instagram, Tik Tok, whatever, make people feel bad, right? And so, what I people feel bad, right? And so, what I people feel bad, right? And so, what I find so interesting is that like find so interesting is that like find so interesting is that like Snapchat itself represents something Snapchat itself represents something Snapchat itself represents something different and a connection to your different and a connection to your different and a connection to your friends and family that actually makes friends and family that actually makes friends and family that actually makes your life better. And so even though your life better. And so even though your life better. And so even though it's challenging to continue operating a it's challenging to continue operating a it's challenging to continue operating a business to compete with these folks, business to compete with these folks, business to compete with these folks, you know, who have a very different you know, who have a very different you know, who have a very different worldview and and a you know a very worldview and and a you know a very worldview and and a you know a very different direction for how they want it different direction for how they want it different direction for how they want it how they want the world to to move, I I how they want the world to to move, I I how they want the world to to move, I I I worry about a world without Snapchat. I worry about a world without Snapchat. I worry about a world without Snapchat. I worry about a you know a world that I worry about a you know a world that I worry about a you know a world that doesn't try to fight for this different doesn't try to fight for this different doesn't try to fight for this different set of values and this different way of set of values and this different way of set of values and this different way of thinking about things. One of the thinking about things. One of the thinking about things. One of the benefits of reading a biography is you benefits of reading a biography is you benefits of reading a biography is you see like the evolution of an idea over see like the evolution of an idea over see like the evolution of an idea over time where like your decision not to time where like your decision not to time where like your decision not to sell as a young man in his early 20s, sell as a young man in his early 20s, sell as a young man in his early 20s, right? You might have had like a a faint right? You might have had like a a faint right? You might have had like a a faint idea that you know first of all I think idea that you know first of all I think idea that you know first of all I think you love being an entrepreneur like you love being an entrepreneur like you love being an entrepreneur like entrepreneurs need businesses. What is entrepreneurs need businesses. What is entrepreneurs need businesses. What is an entrepreneur that sold his business an entrepreneur that sold his business an entrepreneur that sold his business is like nothing. You're just sitting on is like nothing. You're just sitting on is like nothing. You're just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. So like you the sidelines doing nothing. So like you the sidelines doing nothing. So like you shouldn't sell your ever ever sell your shouldn't sell your ever ever sell your shouldn't sell your ever ever sell your best idea. That's what I said um back in best idea. That's what I said um back in best idea. That's what I said um back in 2018 when I made the first podcast about 2018 when I made the first podcast about 2018 when I made the first podcast about you. like this is I think you even said you. like this is I think you even said you. like this is I think you even said this like I don't think I'm going to this like I don't think I'm going to this like I don't think I'm going to come up with a better idea than this. come up with a better idea than this. come up with a better idea than this. >> So I'm going to now dedicate my life to >> So I'm going to now dedicate my life to >> So I'm going to now dedicate my life to working on my second best idea. How the working on my second best idea. How the working on my second best idea. How the hell does that make sense for money that hell does that make sense for money that hell does that make sense for money that I'm going to get anyways in the future I'm going to get anyways in the future I'm going to get anyways in the future and most of which I won't even spend in and most of which I won't even spend in and most of which I won't even spend in my lifetime? my lifetime? my lifetime? >> But you have that kernel of the idea. >> But you have that kernel of the idea. >> But you have that kernel of the idea. But now the you just did this great But now the you just did this great But now the you just did this great articulation of that. It's like that articulation of that. It's like that articulation of that. It's like that idea almost like grew and solidified idea almost like grew and solidified idea almost like grew and solidified over time and then there's things in the over time and then there's things in the over time and then there's things in the future that had to happen that you future that had to happen that you future that had to happen that you didn't know were going to happen that didn't know were going to happen that didn't know were going to happen that you realized that was the right choice. you realized that was the right choice. you realized that was the right choice. such as social media gets a really bad such as social media gets a really bad such as social media gets a really bad rep. It has terrible PR. Um, you know, rep. It has terrible PR. Um, you know, rep. It has terrible PR. Um, you know, all the the polling is like, you know, all the the polling is like, you know, all the the polling is like, you know, people even though they're addicted to people even though they're addicted to people even though they're addicted to these things, they seem to not you make these things, they seem to not you make these things, they seem to not you make their lives better where like you their lives better where like you their lives better where like you actually se if you separate that out and actually se if you separate that out and actually se if you separate that out and like you've built something where like like you've built something where like like you've built something where like people are actually happy and feel good people are actually happy and feel good people are actually happy and feel good about using the product, that's worth about using the product, that's worth about using the product, that's worth more than money. more than money. more than money. >> 100%. Yeah. and you get to have an >> 100%. Yeah. and you get to have an >> 100%. Yeah. and you get to have an impact at the scale of a billion people impact at the scale of a billion people impact at the scale of a billion people around the world who who use our service around the world who who use our service around the world who who use our service to to talk with their friends and to to talk with their friends and to to talk with their friends and family, build stronger relationships. family, build stronger relationships. family, build stronger relationships. Like that's that's inspiring to me. Like that's that's inspiring to me. Like that's that's inspiring to me. >> There was two conversations I had on >> There was two conversations I had on >> There was two conversations I had on this podcast that surprised me. The this podcast that surprised me. The this podcast that surprised me. The first one was with Daniel of Spotify and first one was with Daniel of Spotify and first one was with Daniel of Spotify and the next one was Toby Luke of Shopify. I the next one was Toby Luke of Shopify. I the next one was Toby Luke of Shopify. I get those back confused all the time. get those back confused all the time. get those back confused all the time. Daniel said something interesting where Daniel said something interesting where Daniel said something interesting where he was even willing at the beginning. He he was even willing at the beginning. He he was even willing at the beginning. He he thought uh Spotify needed to exist in he thought uh Spotify needed to exist in he thought uh Spotify needed to exist in the world that he would have he didn't the world that he would have he didn't the world that he would have he didn't want to sell it but if he thought want to sell it but if he thought want to sell it but if he thought selling it would increase the likelihood selling it would increase the likelihood selling it would increase the likelihood that it continues on this world then he that it continues on this world then he that it continues on this world then he was willing to do so and then so that was willing to do so and then so that was willing to do so and then so that that shocked me and then Toby Luke said that shocked me and then Toby Luke said that shocked me and then Toby Luke said something that was fascinating where he something that was fascinating where he something that was fascinating where he thought if if it was not for the this thought if if it was not for the this thought if if it was not for the this new invention of AI and in its current new invention of AI and in its current new invention of AI and in its current uh format that he was close to find he uh format that he was close to find he uh format that he was close to find he didn't think he would be the best CEO of didn't think he would be the best CEO of didn't think he would be the best CEO of Shopify so he would find somebody else Shopify so he would find somebody else Shopify so he would find somebody else to do that because all in both cases to do that because all in both cases to do that because all in both cases they wanted what was best for the they wanted what was best for the they wanted what was best for the company. company. company. >> I think for me like I see Snapchat as >> I think for me like I see Snapchat as >> I think for me like I see Snapchat as the best possible vehicle to reinvent the best possible vehicle to reinvent the best possible vehicle to reinvent the computer. So if you think about the computer. So if you think about the computer. So if you think about Snapchat, we have this core cash flowing Snapchat, we have this core cash flowing Snapchat, we have this core cash flowing profitable business right in Snapchat profitable business right in Snapchat profitable business right in Snapchat that we're able to then use to reinvest that we're able to then use to reinvest that we're able to then use to reinvest in what has been a very long-term in what has been a very long-term in what has been a very long-term speculative project to reinvent the the speculative project to reinvent the the speculative project to reinvent the the computer. And Snapchat has really been computer. And Snapchat has really been computer. And Snapchat has really been in addition to changing the world in its in addition to changing the world in its in addition to changing the world in its own way a real vehicle for enabling this own way a real vehicle for enabling this own way a real vehicle for enabling this evolution of computing. And so I think evolution of computing. And so I think evolution of computing. And so I think for me that's one of the real benefits for me that's one of the real benefits for me that's one of the real benefits of running and controlling Snapchat of running and controlling Snapchat of running and controlling Snapchat today is that we've been able to very today is that we've been able to very today is that we've been able to very consistently in invest in advanced consistently in invest in advanced consistently in invest in advanced technology and R&D over an incredibly technology and R&D over an incredibly technology and R&D over an incredibly long period of time to build a real long period of time to build a real long period of time to build a real competitive advantage but also to build competitive advantage but also to build competitive advantage but also to build a world-class product that we wouldn't a world-class product that we wouldn't a world-class product that we wouldn't have been able to do without Snapchat. have been able to do without Snapchat. have been able to do without Snapchat. >> Oh, I never even thought about that like >> Oh, I never even thought about that like >> Oh, I never even thought about that like that. So you use Snapchat as a means to that. So you use Snapchat as a means to that. So you use Snapchat as a means to reinvent computing. It's an incredibly reinvent computing. It's an incredibly reinvent computing. It's an incredibly important part of it because without a important part of it because without a important part of it because without a hugely profitable cash flowing. I mean, hugely profitable cash flowing. I mean, hugely profitable cash flowing. I mean, Snapchat's almost a $7 billion revenue Snapchat's almost a $7 billion revenue Snapchat's almost a $7 billion revenue business, right? Almost in the Fortune business, right? Almost in the Fortune business, right? Almost in the Fortune 500, people, you know, uh, make fun of 500, people, you know, uh, make fun of 500, people, you know, uh, make fun of us for not being profitable enough, us for not being profitable enough, us for not being profitable enough, we're taking a lot of that core cash we're taking a lot of that core cash we're taking a lot of that core cash flow from Snapchat and using it to flow from Snapchat and using it to flow from Snapchat and using it to reinvest in winning this future of reinvest in winning this future of reinvest in winning this future of computing. What's very unique about computing. What's very unique about computing. What's very unique about Snapchat is we've been able to do that Snapchat is we've been able to do that Snapchat is we've been able to do that now for, you know, we've invested in now for, you know, we've invested in now for, you know, we've invested in glasses for 12 years. We've been able to glasses for 12 years. We've been able to glasses for 12 years. We've been able to very consistently invest in a way that very consistently invest in a way that very consistently invest in a way that no VC would ever in a million years no VC would ever in a million years no VC would ever in a million years support. Would there ever been a world support. Would there ever been a world support. Would there ever been a world where you only built software? where you only built software? where you only built software? >> Um there's too much of like this art design there's too much of like this art design background with you and then I'm sitting background with you and then I'm sitting background with you and then I'm sitting here as you're talking and describing here as you're talking and describing here as you're talking and describing this to me and I didn't even think about this to me and I didn't even think about this to me and I didn't even think about your business in those terms yet which your business in those terms yet which your business in those terms yet which is why it's valuable to sit down and is why it's valuable to sit down and is why it's valuable to sit down and have conversations like this. Uh it's have conversations like this. Uh it's have conversations like this. Uh it's like this guy's two heroes built the like this guy's two heroes built the like this guy's two heroes built the best hardware of all time in both of best hardware of all time in both of best hardware of all time in both of their industries. their industries. their industries. >> Yeah. I I think ultimately >> Yeah. I I think ultimately >> Yeah. I I think ultimately >> and Jobs is famous for saying if you >> and Jobs is famous for saying if you >> and Jobs is famous for saying if you want to build great software you have to want to build great software you have to want to build great software you have to control the hardware. control the hardware. control the hardware. >> 100%. Yeah. I I think ultimately if you >> 100%. Yeah. I I think ultimately if you >> 100%. Yeah. I I think ultimately if you think about the the customer experience think about the the customer experience think about the the customer experience you're trying to create or the what what you're trying to create or the what what you're trying to create or the what what you're trying to create in the world you're trying to create in the world you're trying to create in the world ultimately you realize that hardware is ultimately you realize that hardware is ultimately you realize that hardware is a necessity and realizing that vision a necessity and realizing that vision a necessity and realizing that vision essentially. essentially. essentially. >> So the answer is no. There was no world >> So the answer is no. There was no world >> So the answer is no. There was no world in which Evan only builds software. in which Evan only builds software. in which Evan only builds software. >> Think about how early we started doing >> Think about how early we started doing >> Think about how early we started doing it. I mean this was back in 2014. it. I mean this was back in 2014. it. I mean this was back in 2014. We started investing in hardware. We started investing in hardware. We started investing in hardware. >> Yeah. I think you're really >> Yeah. I think you're really >> Yeah. I think you're really misunderstood >> because like I I did an entire podcast >> because like I I did an entire podcast about you. I've listened to all your about you. I've listened to all your about you. I've listened to all your interviews and I'm still like learning interviews and I'm still like learning interviews and I'm still like learning things right now from talking to you. things right now from talking to you. things right now from talking to you. >> That's fun, right? >> That's fun, right? >> That's fun, right? >> Yeah. No, it's it's definitely a lot of >> Yeah. No, it's it's definitely a lot of >> Yeah. No, it's it's definitely a lot of fun, but like we need to do a better job fun, but like we need to do a better job fun, but like we need to do a better job of telling that story, man. of telling that story, man. of telling that story, man. >> Well, I think the best way to tell a >> Well, I think the best way to tell a >> Well, I think the best way to tell a story is through the product, right? And story is through the product, right? And story is through the product, right? And I think that's what's so exciting about I think that's what's so exciting about I think that's what's so exciting about this year and why I articulate it as a this year and why I articulate it as a this year and why I articulate it as a crucible moment because like we are crucible moment because like we are crucible moment because like we are inflecting and transforming Snapchat at inflecting and transforming Snapchat at inflecting and transforming Snapchat at the same time that we're launching a the same time that we're launching a the same time that we're launching a whole new product category that we've whole new product category that we've whole new product category that we've invented, you know. So this will be a a invented, you know. So this will be a a invented, you know. So this will be a a seinal year for our our company. seinal year for our our company. seinal year for our our company. >> So what does your schedule look like >> So what does your schedule look like >> So what does your schedule look like during a year like this? I've heard like during a year like this? I've heard like during a year like this? I've heard like >> insane. Yeah. >> insane. Yeah. >> insane. Yeah. >> Okay. So >> Okay. So >> Okay. So >> it's completely insane. >> it's completely insane. >> it's completely insane. >> It's untenable. No, it's it's a this is >> It's untenable. No, it's it's a this is >> It's untenable. No, it's it's a this is like a seven day a week job, you know. like a seven day a week job, you know. like a seven day a week job, you know. How do you balance that though? Because How do you balance that though? Because How do you balance that though? Because you have young kids at home and I heard you have young kids at home and I heard you have young kids at home and I heard in very intense times you were talking in very intense times you were talking in very intense times you were talking about sometimes you had to get up before about sometimes you had to get up before about sometimes you had to get up before they were awake and you went home every they were awake and you went home every they were awake and you went home every day after they were asleep. There's a day after they were asleep. There's a day after they were asleep. There's a lot of days like that right now. I mean, lot of days like that right now. I mean, lot of days like that right now. I mean, I'm back in definitely in that mode. I I'm back in definitely in that mode. I I'm back in definitely in that mode. I always try to keep Sunday protected. You always try to keep Sunday protected. You always try to keep Sunday protected. You know, we go to church as a family, we go know, we go to church as a family, we go know, we go to church as a family, we go to brunch, and then I spend the to brunch, and then I spend the to brunch, and then I spend the afternoon with our kids, and that's afternoon with our kids, and that's afternoon with our kids, and that's super important to me. Um, but other super important to me. Um, but other super important to me. Um, but other than that, uh, you know, it's it's full than that, uh, you know, it's it's full than that, uh, you know, it's it's full on. on. on. >> So, early mornings, late nights all the >> So, early mornings, late nights all the >> So, early mornings, late nights all the time. time. time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And your biggest issue is that you're >> And your biggest issue is that you're >> And your biggest issue is that you're redesign like you're inventing new redesign like you're inventing new redesign like you're inventing new hardware cuz is that like I don't want hardware cuz is that like I don't want hardware cuz is that like I don't want to diminish Snapchat, but it sounds like to diminish Snapchat, but it sounds like to diminish Snapchat, but it sounds like it's at scale, it's profitable, you're it's at scale, it's profitable, you're it's at scale, it's profitable, you're adding a lot of product features. With adding a lot of product features. With adding a lot of product features. With Snapchat, we do need to reacelerate the Snapchat, we do need to reacelerate the Snapchat, we do need to reacelerate the advertising business, but I think given advertising business, but I think given advertising business, but I think given the transformation we've undertaken over the transformation we've undertaken over the transformation we've undertaken over the last three years of the advertising the last three years of the advertising the last three years of the advertising platform, like that that is coming, platform, like that that is coming, platform, like that that is coming, right? We're seeing the growth in the right? We're seeing the growth in the right? We're seeing the growth in the small and medium customers. We're small and medium customers. We're small and medium customers. We're diversifying the advertising business. diversifying the advertising business. diversifying the advertising business. We've built this direct revenue We've built this direct revenue We've built this direct revenue business. So, I look at Snapchat and business. So, I look at Snapchat and business. So, I look at Snapchat and like I see a path, you know, to a lot like I see a path, you know, to a lot like I see a path, you know, to a lot more revenue over the over the coming more revenue over the over the coming more revenue over the over the coming years. And so, I think that's that years. And so, I think that's that years. And so, I think that's that certainly has been a huge focus of the certainly has been a huge focus of the certainly has been a huge focus of the last several uh years. And then I think, last several uh years. And then I think, last several uh years. And then I think, you know, the core specs business this you know, the core specs business this you know, the core specs business this year will mark the real beginning, you year will mark the real beginning, you year will mark the real beginning, you know, of the next chapter of that story know, of the next chapter of that story know, of the next chapter of that story as we transition from being, you know, a as we transition from being, you know, a as we transition from being, you know, a developer platform to a consumer developer platform to a consumer developer platform to a consumer product, which is really challenging product, which is really challenging product, which is really challenging thing to do. All right. So, you have an thing to do. All right. So, you have an thing to do. All right. So, you have an insane schedule. I have a feeling based insane schedule. I have a feeling based insane schedule. I have a feeling based on you have like this simmering on you have like this simmering on you have like this simmering intensity about you. Like, are these intensity about you. Like, are these intensity about you. Like, are these actually your favorite times to be actually your favorite times to be actually your favorite times to be running the company? running the company? running the company? >> Absolutely. Yeah. Why? Because every >> Absolutely. Yeah. Why? Because every >> Absolutely. Yeah. Why? Because every decision, the way you spend every minute decision, the way you spend every minute decision, the way you spend every minute really matters. And I think that's really matters. And I think that's really matters. And I think that's exciting because I think it's a we're at exciting because I think it's a we're at exciting because I think it's a we're at a real inflection point in the company a real inflection point in the company a real inflection point in the company in terms of you know if you think about in terms of you know if you think about in terms of you know if you think about the last 12 years of my life that I've the last 12 years of my life that I've the last 12 years of my life that I've invested in you know creating this new invested in you know creating this new invested in you know creating this new vision for what a computer can be and vision for what a computer can be and vision for what a computer can be and you know and I I almost said the number you know and I I almost said the number you know and I I almost said the number of days and in some number of days we're of days and in some number of days we're of days and in some number of days we're about to share that with the world and about to share that with the world and about to share that with the world and like that's incredibly incredibly like that's incredibly incredibly like that's incredibly incredibly exciting. exciting. exciting. >> How do you handle the stress though? >> How do you handle the stress though? >> How do you handle the stress though? >> Huge on meditation. Korea meditation >> Huge on meditation. Korea meditation >> Huge on meditation. Korea meditation changed my life. changed my life. changed my life. >> What's it called? >> What's it called? >> What's it called? >> Called Ka. >> Called Ka. >> Called Ka. >> Okay. Unbelievable. Meditation was like >> Okay. Unbelievable. Meditation was like >> Okay. Unbelievable. Meditation was like never like a fit for me, you know? I was never like a fit for me, you know? I was never like a fit for me, you know? I was like they're like try TM, like learn like they're like try TM, like learn like they're like try TM, like learn your mantra. Like it just like never your mantra. Like it just like never your mantra. Like it just like never clicked. Ka is like incredibly clicked. Ka is like incredibly clicked. Ka is like incredibly energizing, you know, involves like energizing, you know, involves like energizing, you know, involves like breath work. And it's like to me it's breath work. And it's like to me it's breath work. And it's like to me it's like uh I mean wow, you know, it's like like uh I mean wow, you know, it's like like uh I mean wow, you know, it's like it's super powerful. it's super powerful. it's super powerful. >> Is this like a daily practice >> Is this like a daily practice >> Is this like a daily practice >> when I can? Yeah. And I I try to >> when I can? Yeah. And I I try to >> when I can? Yeah. And I I try to exercise every morning, you know, Korea exercise every morning, you know, Korea exercise every morning, you know, Korea as much as I can, you know, a couple as much as I can, you know, a couple as much as I can, you know, a couple days a week. Um days a week. Um days a week. Um and obviously playing with our kids and and obviously playing with our kids and and obviously playing with our kids and hanging with my wife. Like that's the hanging with my wife. Like that's the hanging with my wife. Like that's the that's the stress management regime. that's the stress management regime. that's the stress management regime. >> Yeah. I I feel like all the great >> Yeah. I I feel like all the great >> Yeah. I I feel like all the great entrepreneurs, it's like the the the the entrepreneurs, it's like the the the the entrepreneurs, it's like the the the the best quote I've ever heard describe this best quote I've ever heard describe this best quote I've ever heard describe this kind of mentality was this guy name her kind of mentality was this guy name her kind of mentality was this guy name her Keller who was the founder of Southwest Keller who was the founder of Southwest Keller who was the founder of Southwest Airlines which the most successful Airlines which the most successful Airlines which the most successful airline and think about he's selling airline and think about he's selling airline and think about he's selling commodity product right uh most commodity product right uh most commodity product right uh most successful airline of all time. I think successful airline of all time. I think successful airline of all time. I think he was profitable for 40 straight years he was profitable for 40 straight years he was profitable for 40 straight years and he was asked one time they're like and he was asked one time they're like and he was asked one time they're like how do you handle the stress? He's like how do you handle the stress? He's like how do you handle the stress? He's like I don't handle it. I like it. I don't handle it. I like it. I don't handle it. I like it. >> He's like I'm I'm not doing this. like I >> He's like I'm I'm not doing this. like I >> He's like I'm I'm not doing this. like I wouldn't start a company in a hugely wouldn't start a company in a hugely wouldn't start a company in a hugely competitive environment if I wanted like competitive environment if I wanted like competitive environment if I wanted like to take an easy path through life. to take an easy path through life. to take an easy path through life. >> But I think what he did there and like >> But I think what he did there and like >> But I think what he did there and like how he explained that what's really how he explained that what's really how he explained that what's really powerful about that and I think this is powerful about that and I think this is powerful about that and I think this is what a lot of founders do is they what a lot of founders do is they what a lot of founders do is they reframe it, right? Like if you can reframe it, right? Like if you can reframe it, right? Like if you can reframe stress as an opportunity, it's reframe stress as an opportunity, it's reframe stress as an opportunity, it's going to it's going to be great. I mean going to it's going to be great. I mean going to it's going to be great. I mean in the early like I hated speaking in the early like I hated speaking in the early like I hated speaking publicly when we created our company. I publicly when we created our company. I publicly when we created our company. I didn't like it. Like my my innate nature didn't like it. Like my my innate nature didn't like it. Like my my innate nature I mean this goes back to like growing up I mean this goes back to like growing up I mean this goes back to like growing up in the computer lab, right? Like I just in the computer lab, right? Like I just in the computer lab, right? Like I just did not want to do public speaking. I did not want to do public speaking. I did not want to do public speaking. I didn't want to do companywide Q&A, you didn't want to do companywide Q&A, you didn't want to do companywide Q&A, you know? I'm like, if I want to communicate know? I'm like, if I want to communicate know? I'm like, if I want to communicate with a company, I'll send an email kind with a company, I'll send an email kind with a company, I'll send an email kind of thing, right? Like it's crazy. And of thing, right? Like it's crazy. And of thing, right? Like it's crazy. And like one of our board members was like, like one of our board members was like, like one of our board members was like, Evan, like it's your job. Like too bad. Evan, like it's your job. Like too bad. Evan, like it's your job. Like too bad. Figure it out. And literally I was like, Figure it out. And literally I was like, Figure it out. And literally I was like, okay, I'm going to learn how to love it. okay, I'm going to learn how to love it. okay, I'm going to learn how to love it. Like I'm going to learn how to love Like I'm going to learn how to love Like I'm going to learn how to love public speaking. I'm going to learn how public speaking. I'm going to learn how public speaking. I'm going to learn how to love doing a, you know, live Q&A with to love doing a, you know, live Q&A with to love doing a, you know, live Q&A with our team. And I do now. Like I love it. our team. And I do now. Like I love it. our team. And I do now. Like I love it. I love doing Q&A with our team. And so I I love doing Q&A with our team. And so I I love doing Q&A with our team. And so I think that ability to like reframe think that ability to like reframe think that ability to like reframe things that like appear like a challenge things that like appear like a challenge things that like appear like a challenge or feel like something you're or feel like something you're or feel like something you're uncomfortable with, like that's that's uncomfortable with, like that's that's uncomfortable with, like that's that's really important. Yeah, you'll see this really important. Yeah, you'll see this really important. Yeah, you'll see this in the history of entrepreneurship. in the history of entrepreneurship. in the history of entrepreneurship. Thomas Edison, Henry Kaiser, Edwin Lan, Thomas Edison, Henry Kaiser, Edwin Lan, Thomas Edison, Henry Kaiser, Edwin Lan, they view it as pro uh problems or just they view it as pro uh problems or just they view it as pro uh problems or just opportunities and work close. It's like opportunities and work close. It's like opportunities and work close. It's like this is an opportunity. We just have to this is an opportunity. We just have to this is an opportunity. We just have to get to work to actually do it. There's get to work to actually do it. There's get to work to actually do it. There's been this new um thing that's popped up been this new um thing that's popped up been this new um thing that's popped up where I'm glad you you you like actually where I'm glad you you you like actually where I'm glad you you you like actually developed a skill set uh and to tell developed a skill set uh and to tell developed a skill set uh and to tell your own story to communicate this your own story to communicate this your own story to communicate this because companies are trying to hire because companies are trying to hire because companies are trying to hire like a chief storyteller. It's like like a chief storyteller. It's like like a chief storyteller. It's like yeah, that's the founder like Edwin yeah, that's the founder like Edwin yeah, that's the founder like Edwin Land. Go back again. We talked about Land. Go back again. We talked about Land. Go back again. We talked about Edwin Land and Steve Jobs a lot today. Edwin Land and Steve Jobs a lot today. Edwin Land and Steve Jobs a lot today. It's like they would tell you the person It's like they would tell you the person It's like they would tell you the person that is best able to tell and it's not that is best able to tell and it's not that is best able to tell and it's not even have to be that articulate. It's even have to be that articulate. It's even have to be that articulate. It's just you care more about anybody else. just you care more about anybody else. just you care more about anybody else. You know more about it than anybody You know more about it than anybody You know more about it than anybody else. Just educate us on what is why else. Just educate us on what is why else. Just educate us on what is why your product exists and what makes it your product exists and what makes it your product exists and what makes it special. And who else could do that but special. And who else could do that but special. And who else could do that but the person that was there when it was the person that was there when it was the person that was there when it was just one person, two people and a just one person, two people and a just one person, two people and a laptop. Yeah. I'll never forget like I I laptop. Yeah. I'll never forget like I I laptop. Yeah. I'll never forget like I I when I was a lot uh younger, I was when I was a lot uh younger, I was when I was a lot uh younger, I was starting the company, I had the starting the company, I had the starting the company, I had the opportunity to meet uh President opportunity to meet uh President opportunity to meet uh President Clinton, right? And his advice was like Clinton, right? And his advice was like Clinton, right? And his advice was like the job is explainer chief. that is the the job is explainer chief. that is the the job is explainer chief. that is the job. Like you got to go around and job. Like you got to go around and job. Like you got to go around and explain this stuff to everybody so they explain this stuff to everybody so they explain this stuff to everybody so they understand, you know, their role at Snap understand, you know, their role at Snap understand, you know, their role at Snap or Snap's role in the world. And I think or Snap's role in the world. And I think or Snap's role in the world. And I think that that's super valuable. that that's super valuable. that that's super valuable. >> Well, you're doing a good job. I >> Well, you're doing a good job. I >> Well, you're doing a good job. I appreciate you taking the time for this. appreciate you taking the time for this. appreciate you taking the time for this. I do want to end on one of my favorite I do want to end on one of my favorite I do want to end on one of my favorite quotes. This is from the book that I quotes. This is from the book that I quotes. This is from the book that I read uh about you uh almost a decade read uh about you uh almost a decade read uh about you uh almost a decade ago. ago. ago. The the the I guess I'll give a little The the the I guess I'll give a little The the the I guess I'll give a little context here. You dropped out of context here. You dropped out of context here. You dropped out of Stanford with five classes, six classes Stanford with five classes, six classes Stanford with five classes, six classes left, but you decided to walk with an left, but you decided to walk with an left, but you decided to walk with an empty for an empty diploma, right? and empty for an empty diploma, right? and empty for an empty diploma, right? and you regretted it. And then you told this you regretted it. And then you told this you regretted it. And then you told this beautiful, this is a direct quote from beautiful, this is a direct quote from beautiful, this is a direct quote from you. It says, "It only recently occurred you. It says, "It only recently occurred you. It says, "It only recently occurred to me while preparing this, how totally to me while preparing this, how totally to me while preparing this, how totally absurd this whole charade was. It absurd this whole charade was. It absurd this whole charade was. It reminded me that often times we do all reminded me that often times we do all reminded me that often times we do all sorts of silly things to avoid appearing sorts of silly things to avoid appearing sorts of silly things to avoid appearing different. Conforming happens so different. Conforming happens so different. Conforming happens so naturally that we can forget how naturally that we can forget how naturally that we can forget how powerful it is. We want to be accepted powerful it is. We want to be accepted powerful it is. We want to be accepted by our peers. We want to be part of the by our peers. We want to be part of the by our peers. We want to be part of the group. It's in our biology. But the group. It's in our biology. But the group. It's in our biology. But the thing that makes us human are those thing that makes us human are those thing that makes us human are those times we listen to the whispers of our times we listen to the whispers of our times we listen to the whispers of our soul and allow ourselves to be pulled in soul and allow ourselves to be pulled in soul and allow ourselves to be pulled in another direction. It's very obvious another direction. It's very obvious another direction. It's very obvious that you listen to the whispers of your that you listen to the whispers of your that you listen to the whispers of your soul. I'm very glad that people like you soul. I'm very glad that people like you soul. I'm very glad that people like you exist. Thank you very much for taking exist. Thank you very much for taking exist. Thank you very much for taking the time to have this conversation. the time to have this conversation. the time to have this conversation. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Yeah. Awesome, man. >> Yeah. Awesome, man. >> Yeah. Awesome, man. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to my other podcast, sure you listen to my other podcast, sure you listen to my other podcast, founders for almost a decade. I've founders for almost a decade. I've founders for almost a decade. I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs history's greatest entrepreneurs history's greatest entrepreneurs searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through on this show first found me through on this show first found me through Founders.