Essentials: Tools for Setting & Achieving Goals | Dr. Emily Balcetis

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the where we revisit past episodes for the where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based most potent and actionable science-based most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical tools for mental health, physical tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. health, and performance. health, and performance. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. And now for Stanford School of Medicine. And now for Stanford School of Medicine. And now for my discussion with Dr. Emily Belchettis. my discussion with Dr. Emily Belchettis. my discussion with Dr. Emily Belchettis. Well, thanks for being here. Well, thanks for being here. Well, thanks for being here. >> It's my pleasure. >> It's my pleasure. >> It's my pleasure. >> Yeah, I've been looking forward to this >> Yeah, I've been looking forward to this >> Yeah, I've been looking forward to this for a long time. uh because as a vision for a long time. uh because as a vision for a long time. uh because as a vision scientist uh who is also very interested scientist uh who is also very interested scientist uh who is also very interested in real life tools and goal setting and in real life tools and goal setting and in real life tools and goal setting and motivation, your work lands squarely in motivation, your work lands squarely in motivation, your work lands squarely in the middle of those interests. Just to the middle of those interests. Just to the middle of those interests. Just to kick things off, you could tell us just kick things off, you could tell us just kick things off, you could tell us just a little bit about goal setting and goal a little bit about goal setting and goal a little bit about goal setting and goal retrieval. What's the deal with vision retrieval. What's the deal with vision retrieval. What's the deal with vision and motivation? How do those two things and motivation? How do those two things and motivation? How do those two things link up? link up? link up? >> Yeah, totally. When psychologists ask >> Yeah, totally. When psychologists ask >> Yeah, totally. When psychologists ask people like, "How are you what are you people like, "How are you what are you people like, "How are you what are you doing to help make progress on your doing to help make progress on your doing to help make progress on your goals?" They say all kinds of things. a goals?" They say all kinds of things. a goals?" They say all kinds of things. a couple things always pop to the top, couple things always pop to the top, couple things always pop to the top, which is, you know, self- pep talks or I which is, you know, self- pep talks or I which is, you know, self- pep talks or I remind myself of how important it is to remind myself of how important it is to remind myself of how important it is to to do this job or put up post-it notes to do this job or put up post-it notes to do this job or put up post-it notes around to like constantly be nagging me around to like constantly be nagging me around to like constantly be nagging me about what I need to do. All of that about what I need to do. All of that about what I need to do. All of that takes a lot of time and effort and takes a lot of time and effort and takes a lot of time and effort and commitment. And so, what a surprise that commitment. And so, what a surprise that commitment. And so, what a surprise that people burn out, right? It's exciting to people burn out, right? It's exciting to people burn out, right? It's exciting to work on a goal when you when you first work on a goal when you when you first work on a goal when you when you first set it. You might make some initial set it. You might make some initial set it. You might make some initial progress, but then eventually we get, progress, but then eventually we get, progress, but then eventually we get, you know, not even to the halfway point you know, not even to the halfway point you know, not even to the halfway point before things get real. things are are before things get real. things are are before things get real. things are are challenging and we fall by the wayside. challenging and we fall by the wayside. challenging and we fall by the wayside. So then I you know with my team I was So then I you know with my team I was So then I you know with my team I was trying to think of like well what are trying to think of like well what are trying to think of like well what are strategies that don't require as much strategies that don't require as much strategies that don't require as much effort that we can automate that we can effort that we can automate that we can effort that we can automate that we can take advantage of what's already take advantage of what's already take advantage of what's already happening within ourselves within our happening within ourselves within our happening within ourselves within our body within our mind that might overcome body within our mind that might overcome body within our mind that might overcome one of those challenges and that's when one of those challenges and that's when one of those challenges and that's when we started to land on the idea of vision we started to land on the idea of vision we started to land on the idea of vision and we thought you know what there are and we thought you know what there are and we thought you know what there are strategies that we can use to look at strategies that we can use to look at strategies that we can use to look at the world in a different way and that we the world in a different way and that we the world in a different way and that we can automate that might help us to can automate that might help us to can automate that might help us to overcome some obstacles to make progress overcome some obstacles to make progress overcome some obstacles to make progress on our goals to maybe literally see on our goals to maybe literally see on our goals to maybe literally see opportunity unities that we hadn't been opportunity unities that we hadn't been opportunity unities that we hadn't been able to see before. able to see before. able to see before. >> You've published a number of studies in >> You've published a number of studies in >> You've published a number of studies in this area, but maybe you could highlight this area, but maybe you could highlight this area, but maybe you could highlight some of the more important findings in some of the more important findings in some of the more important findings in the area of how people can adjust their the area of how people can adjust their the area of how people can adjust their vision in order to meet goals more vision in order to meet goals more vision in order to meet goals more quickly and more efficiently. quickly and more efficiently. quickly and more efficiently. >> So, you know, we started thinking about >> So, you know, we started thinking about >> So, you know, we started thinking about what are the goals that are most what are the goals that are most what are the goals that are most important to people that they struggle important to people that they struggle important to people that they struggle with the most. And regardless of where with the most. And regardless of where with the most. And regardless of where you look or who you ask or when you ask you look or who you ask or when you ask you look or who you ask or when you ask it, people's number one goal is it, people's number one goal is it, people's number one goal is something related to their health, something related to their health, something related to their health, right? So, one of the first things that right? So, one of the first things that right? So, one of the first things that I did was um go over to Brooklyn. I did was um go over to Brooklyn. I did was um go over to Brooklyn. There's a couple armories all around um There's a couple armories all around um There's a couple armories all around um the the the burrows here around New York the the the burrows here around New York the the the burrows here around New York City. And one and the one in Brooklyn in City. And one and the one in Brooklyn in City. And one and the one in Brooklyn in particular is now YMCA. You somebody had particular is now YMCA. You somebody had particular is now YMCA. You somebody had invited me, a physical therapist said, invited me, a physical therapist said, invited me, a physical therapist said, "Hey, you should come out and and check "Hey, you should come out and and check "Hey, you should come out and and check out what's happening here with your out what's happening here with your out what's happening here with your interest in exercise and trying to find interest in exercise and trying to find interest in exercise and trying to find new ways of helping people, new tactics new ways of helping people, new tactics new ways of helping people, new tactics that they can add to their tool belt." that they can add to their tool belt." that they can add to their tool belt." Uh I think you're going to find some Uh I think you're going to find some Uh I think you're going to find some interesting people that are working out interesting people that are working out interesting people that are working out there who, as it turns out, are some of there who, as it turns out, are some of there who, as it turns out, are some of the fastest runners in the world. like the fastest runners in the world. like the fastest runners in the world. like you know one of the people that was in you know one of the people that was in you know one of the people that was in the the last Olympics before I showed up the the last Olympics before I showed up the the last Olympics before I showed up won the gold medal for the 400 meter. I won the gold medal for the 400 meter. I won the gold medal for the 400 meter. I thought when these people are running I thought when these people are running I thought when these people are running I bet they are like hyper aware of bet they are like hyper aware of bet they are like hyper aware of everything that's going on in their everything that's going on in their everything that's going on in their surroundings. Where are they relative to surroundings. Where are they relative to surroundings. Where are they relative to the competition? What's happening in the competition? What's happening in the competition? What's happening in their peripheral vision? What's going on their peripheral vision? What's going on their peripheral vision? What's going on on the side? Who's behind them? Who's in on the side? Who's behind them? Who's in on the side? Who's behind them? Who's in front of them? They probably have this front of them? They probably have this front of them? They probably have this like master sense, this master visual like master sense, this master visual like master sense, this master visual plan at any point in time. And that's plan at any point in time. And that's plan at any point in time. And that's what probably makes them elite. So when what probably makes them elite. So when what probably makes them elite. So when I started asking them, is that the case? I started asking them, is that the case? I started asking them, is that the case? Do you do you really pay attention to Do you do you really pay attention to Do you do you really pay attention to what's in your surroundings? What's what's in your surroundings? What's what's in your surroundings? What's behind you? What's on the sides? They behind you? What's on the sides? They behind you? What's on the sides? They said no. Like all of them said no. And said no. Like all of them said no. And said no. Like all of them said no. And sometimes when I do do that, it's a sometimes when I do do that, it's a sometimes when I do do that, it's a mistake. So that was surprising. It mistake. So that was surprising. It mistake. So that was surprising. It totally went against my intuition about totally went against my intuition about totally went against my intuition about what they do that likely contributes to what they do that likely contributes to what they do that likely contributes to their success. What they said instead their success. What they said instead their success. What they said instead was that they are hyperfocused. They was that they are hyperfocused. They was that they are hyperfocused. They assume this narrowed focus of attention assume this narrowed focus of attention assume this narrowed focus of attention almost like a spotlight is is shining on almost like a spotlight is is shining on almost like a spotlight is is shining on a target. Now, when they're running a a target. Now, when they're running a a target. Now, when they're running a short distance, that target might short distance, that target might short distance, that target might literally be the finish line, the line literally be the finish line, the line literally be the finish line, the line that they're trying to cross. If it's a that they're trying to cross. If it's a that they're trying to cross. If it's a longer distance, they set sub goals longer distance, they set sub goals longer distance, they set sub goals like, you know, the person the shorts on like, you know, the person the shorts on like, you know, the person the shorts on the person up ahead that they're trying the person up ahead that they're trying the person up ahead that they're trying to beat or they choose some sort of to beat or they choose some sort of to beat or they choose some sort of stable landmark like a sign that that stable landmark like a sign that that stable landmark like a sign that that they would pass by. Like a spotlight is they would pass by. Like a spotlight is they would pass by. Like a spotlight is shining just on that or like they have shining just on that or like they have shining just on that or like they have blinders on the sides of their face. blinders on the sides of their face. blinders on the sides of their face. That's all they're paying attention to. That's all they're paying attention to. That's all they're paying attention to. And I thought, well, that's something we And I thought, well, that's something we And I thought, well, that's something we can play with, right? Like they are can play with, right? Like they are can play with, right? Like they are elite and they are accomplished. So then elite and they are accomplished. So then elite and they are accomplished. So then we started thinking like, okay, what we started thinking like, okay, what we started thinking like, okay, what about people who who aren't competitive about people who who aren't competitive about people who who aren't competitive runners? Is this a tactic we can teach runners? Is this a tactic we can teach runners? Is this a tactic we can teach people? The answer is yes. You can tell people? The answer is yes. You can tell people? The answer is yes. You can tell people about what these Olympic athletes people about what these Olympic athletes people about what these Olympic athletes are doing. Imagine that there's a are doing. Imagine that there's a are doing. Imagine that there's a spotlight shining just on a target. spotlight shining just on a target. spotlight shining just on a target. Choose choose something up ahead, the Choose choose something up ahead, the Choose choose something up ahead, the stop sign two blocks up that you can you stop sign two blocks up that you can you stop sign two blocks up that you can you can just see. And you know, imagine that can just see. And you know, imagine that can just see. And you know, imagine that you you have blinders on so that you're you you have blinders on so that you're you you have blinders on so that you're not really paying attention to the not really paying attention to the not really paying attention to the people that are passing by or the people that are passing by or the people that are passing by or the buildings or the garbage cans or the or buildings or the garbage cans or the or buildings or the garbage cans or the or the trucks that are on the road. you the trucks that are on the road. you the trucks that are on the road. you know, tune those out and focus in on know, tune those out and focus in on know, tune those out and focus in on that target until you hit it and then that target until you hit it and then that target until you hit it and then choose another one, right? Sort of choose another one, right? Sort of choose another one, right? Sort of recalibrate, choose the next goal. You recalibrate, choose the next goal. You recalibrate, choose the next goal. You know, one of the first studies that we know, one of the first studies that we know, one of the first studies that we did was was teach that strategy and did was was teach that strategy and did was was teach that strategy and juxtapose or compare it against a group juxtapose or compare it against a group juxtapose or compare it against a group that we said just look around naturally. that we said just look around naturally. that we said just look around naturally. You know, you might see that finish line You know, you might see that finish line You know, you might see that finish line up ahead and there's things on the up ahead and there's things on the up ahead and there's things on the periphery. Whatever your eyes want to periphery. Whatever your eyes want to periphery. Whatever your eyes want to do, whatever you think is going to work do, whatever you think is going to work do, whatever you think is going to work best, feel free to do that and tell us best, feel free to do that and tell us best, feel free to do that and tell us what you're looking at. Then we gave what you're looking at. Then we gave what you're looking at. Then we gave them a finish line. We created sort of, them a finish line. We created sort of, them a finish line. We created sort of, you know, an exercise that's moderately you know, an exercise that's moderately you know, an exercise that's moderately challenging. um but possible. We put challenging. um but possible. We put challenging. um but possible. We put ankle weights on that that accounted for ankle weights on that that accounted for ankle weights on that that accounted for about 15% of their body weight. Told about 15% of their body weight. Told about 15% of their body weight. Told them to lift their knees up sort of high them to lift their knees up sort of high them to lift their knees up sort of high stepping to a finish line. So this would stepping to a finish line. So this would stepping to a finish line. So this would be challenging uh for them to do. Um but be challenging uh for them to do. Um but be challenging uh for them to do. Um but we said, you know, it's an indicator of we said, you know, it's an indicator of we said, you know, it's an indicator of overall health and fitness. Some of overall health and fitness. Some of overall health and fitness. Some of these people had narrowed their focus of these people had narrowed their focus of these people had narrowed their focus of attention and some were just looking attention and some were just looking attention and some were just looking more expansively or naturally. And what more expansively or naturally. And what more expansively or naturally. And what we found is that those people that we we found is that those people that we we found is that those people that we trained, just everyday normal people trained, just everyday normal people trained, just everyday normal people doing this this moderately challenging doing this this moderately challenging doing this this moderately challenging exercise, they were able to move 27% exercise, they were able to move 27% exercise, they were able to move 27% faster. They could do the exercise more faster. They could do the exercise more faster. They could do the exercise more quickly, and they said it hurt 17% less. quickly, and they said it hurt 17% less. quickly, and they said it hurt 17% less. Everybody was in the same sort of Everybody was in the same sort of Everybody was in the same sort of circumstance, but yet their experience circumstance, but yet their experience circumstance, but yet their experience was really different. So, we were really was really different. So, we were really was really different. So, we were really excited about that, right? Because it excited about that, right? Because it excited about that, right? Because it meant that this strategy, we could use meant that this strategy, we could use meant that this strategy, we could use it on people who are not elite athletes. it on people who are not elite athletes. it on people who are not elite athletes. It could be easily adopted. a quick It could be easily adopted. a quick It could be easily adopted. a quick training session, right, can teach training session, right, can teach training session, right, can teach people to look at the world in a people to look at the world in a people to look at the world in a different way. Again, this narrowed different way. Again, this narrowed different way. Again, this narrowed attention was different than whatever attention was different than whatever attention was different than whatever they do naturally, the comparison group. they do naturally, the comparison group. they do naturally, the comparison group. Um, but it had a big outcome. It had a Um, but it had a big outcome. It had a Um, but it had a big outcome. It had a big difference on the way that they were big difference on the way that they were big difference on the way that they were engaged in the exercise. engaged in the exercise. engaged in the exercise. >> Are they focusing on a specific point or >> Are they focusing on a specific point or >> Are they focusing on a specific point or is it kind of the entire horizon of that is it kind of the entire horizon of that is it kind of the entire horizon of that goal? Because the finish line is indeed goal? Because the finish line is indeed goal? Because the finish line is indeed a line. in our interviews with people, a line. in our interviews with people, a line. in our interviews with people, our our sort of focus group studies, um our our sort of focus group studies, um our our sort of focus group studies, um it seems like it's more like a a it seems like it's more like a a it seems like it's more like a a circular point. And that's in fact what circular point. And that's in fact what circular point. And that's in fact what we're teaching people, what we're we're teaching people, what we're we're teaching people, what we're training them to do. So rather than training them to do. So rather than training them to do. So rather than going broadly looking across a line from going broadly looking across a line from going broadly looking across a line from left to right, we are encouraging them left to right, we are encouraging them left to right, we are encouraging them to like imagine a circle of light that's to like imagine a circle of light that's to like imagine a circle of light that's shining on some target. Now, of course, shining on some target. Now, of course, shining on some target. Now, of course, a finish line is a line, but if they're a finish line is a line, but if they're a finish line is a line, but if they're staying in their lane, if they're on a staying in their lane, if they're on a staying in their lane, if they're on a track, right, you can imagine that there track, right, you can imagine that there track, right, you can imagine that there is that there is a circle shining just is that there is a circle shining just is that there is a circle shining just on where in their lane they'll cross on where in their lane they'll cross on where in their lane they'll cross that finish line. Or if it's a stop that finish line. Or if it's a stop that finish line. Or if it's a stop sign, you could imagine a circle of sign, you could imagine a circle of sign, you could imagine a circle of light illuminating that. So, that's what light illuminating that. So, that's what light illuminating that. So, that's what we're teaching people to use and that's we're teaching people to use and that's we're teaching people to use and that's what seems to be effective to maintain what seems to be effective to maintain what seems to be effective to maintain that focus rather than sort of being that focus rather than sort of being that focus rather than sort of being pulled to engage with peripheral vision. pulled to engage with peripheral vision. pulled to engage with peripheral vision. And there's some amazing people um some And there's some amazing people um some And there's some amazing people um some runners in history like Joan Benois runners in history like Joan Benois runners in history like Joan Benois Samuelson. She's one of the first uh Samuelson. She's one of the first uh Samuelson. She's one of the first uh female marathon competitors who has has female marathon competitors who has has female marathon competitors who has has won multiple marathons. She's Canadian. won multiple marathons. She's Canadian. won multiple marathons. She's Canadian. I think she's won, feel free to correct I think she's won, feel free to correct I think she's won, feel free to correct me, like 10 marathons in in her life. Uh me, like 10 marathons in in her life. Uh me, like 10 marathons in in her life. Uh and she talks about sort of not assuming and she talks about sort of not assuming and she talks about sort of not assuming this like this wide but this like this wide but this like this wide but but narrow wide but not deep or tall uh but narrow wide but not deep or tall uh but narrow wide but not deep or tall uh attentional focus. She talks about like attentional focus. She talks about like attentional focus. She talks about like finding the shorts on somebody ahead of finding the shorts on somebody ahead of finding the shorts on somebody ahead of me and focusing on on those shorts until me and focusing on on those shorts until me and focusing on on those shorts until she passes them and then resetting that she passes them and then resetting that she passes them and then resetting that goal. goal. goal. >> The most pressing question I have in my >> The most pressing question I have in my >> The most pressing question I have in my mind is can we I mind is can we I mind is can we I uh all of us use this strategy to make uh all of us use this strategy to make uh all of us use this strategy to make the starting line a goal point because the starting line a goal point because the starting line a goal point because for a lot of people it's not about going for a lot of people it's not about going for a lot of people it's not about going from start to finish. It's about getting from start to finish. It's about getting from start to finish. It's about getting to start. And is there any physiology or to start. And is there any physiology or to start. And is there any physiology or physiological changes I should say to physiological changes I should say to physiological changes I should say to reflect the idea that maybe just reflect the idea that maybe just reflect the idea that maybe just visually focusing on the start line visually focusing on the start line visually focusing on the start line would actually get me more excited as would actually get me more excited as would actually get me more excited as opposed to make me less excited to opposed to make me less excited to opposed to make me less excited to engage in effort. engage in effort. engage in effort. >> There's certainly vision science that's >> There's certainly vision science that's >> There's certainly vision science that's tied up in that very first stage of of tied up in that very first stage of of tied up in that very first stage of of goal setting, like identifying what that goal setting, like identifying what that goal setting, like identifying what that goal is in the first place and taking goal is in the first place and taking goal is in the first place and taking those first steps. A lot of people's those first steps. A lot of people's those first steps. A lot of people's go-to strategies that involve vision are go-to strategies that involve vision are go-to strategies that involve vision are are vision boards or dream boards or, are vision boards or dream boards or, are vision boards or dream boards or, you know, post-it notes, right? They're you know, post-it notes, right? They're you know, post-it notes, right? They're creating some sort of visual creating some sort of visual creating some sort of visual representation of what it is that they representation of what it is that they representation of what it is that they want to accomplish. You know, almost want to accomplish. You know, almost want to accomplish. You know, almost like a scrapbook collect visual icons like a scrapbook collect visual icons like a scrapbook collect visual icons that reflect where you want to be to that reflect where you want to be to that reflect where you want to be to motivate yourself. It's a really common motivate yourself. It's a really common motivate yourself. It's a really common tactic that's effective for identifying tactic that's effective for identifying tactic that's effective for identifying what you want, but it may not actually what you want, but it may not actually what you want, but it may not actually be effective for helping you to meet the be effective for helping you to meet the be effective for helping you to meet the goal, to get the job done. So colleagues goal, to get the job done. So colleagues goal, to get the job done. So colleagues of mine at New York University um have of mine at New York University um have of mine at New York University um have probed why why is that? Why is just you probed why why is that? Why is just you probed why why is that? Why is just you know thinking about what you want in know thinking about what you want in know thinking about what you want in your life and um and sort of putting your life and um and sort of putting your life and um and sort of putting yourself vicariously into those shoes yourself vicariously into those shoes yourself vicariously into those shoes imagining what my life will be like if I imagining what my life will be like if I imagining what my life will be like if I can accomplish everything on this list. can accomplish everything on this list. can accomplish everything on this list. Why doesn't that work? Well, first of Why doesn't that work? Well, first of Why doesn't that work? Well, first of all, does it work? The answer is no. And all, does it work? The answer is no. And all, does it work? The answer is no. And why does it not work? uh because what why does it not work? uh because what why does it not work? uh because what happens these colleagues Gabrielle Oten happens these colleagues Gabrielle Oten happens these colleagues Gabrielle Oten Jen and and her and her research team Jen and and her and her research team Jen and and her and her research team have found is that you know going have found is that you know going have found is that you know going through and dreaming about or or or through and dreaming about or or or through and dreaming about or or or visualizing how great my life will be visualizing how great my life will be visualizing how great my life will be when I get X Y and Z done. Um that is when I get X Y and Z done. Um that is when I get X Y and Z done. Um that is that is like a goal satisfied. I have that is like a goal satisfied. I have that is like a goal satisfied. I have identified what it is that I want. I identified what it is that I want. I identified what it is that I want. I have experienced it even if just in an have experienced it even if just in an have experienced it even if just in an imaginary way. I've had that positive imaginary way. I've had that positive imaginary way. I've had that positive experience of of thinking about what how experience of of thinking about what how experience of of thinking about what how great my life is going to be when I get great my life is going to be when I get great my life is going to be when I get this thing done. And they start to sort this thing done. And they start to sort this thing done. And they start to sort of rest on their laurels. She's actually of rest on their laurels. She's actually of rest on their laurels. She's actually measured systolic blood pressure and measured systolic blood pressure and measured systolic blood pressure and heart rate. And they found that people heart rate. And they found that people heart rate. And they found that people who do that, who go through that who do that, who go through that who do that, who go through that experience of visualizing how great my experience of visualizing how great my experience of visualizing how great my life will be when I get X, Y, and Z life will be when I get X, Y, and Z life will be when I get X, Y, and Z done, their their systolic blood done, their their systolic blood done, their their systolic blood pressure, the bottom number on your pressure, the bottom number on your pressure, the bottom number on your blood pressure reading, decreases. Now, blood pressure reading, decreases. Now, blood pressure reading, decreases. Now, I'm all about finding ways to relax, but I'm all about finding ways to relax, but I'm all about finding ways to relax, but motivation scientists know that systolic motivation scientists know that systolic motivation scientists know that systolic blood pressure is actually an indicator blood pressure is actually an indicator blood pressure is actually an indicator of our body's readiness to get up and of our body's readiness to get up and of our body's readiness to get up and act, to do something. Now, that can be act, to do something. Now, that can be act, to do something. Now, that can be the going out for a walk, going out for the going out for a walk, going out for the going out for a walk, going out for a run, hitting the gym. It can also be a run, hitting the gym. It can also be a run, hitting the gym. It can also be things like doing math problems, right? things like doing math problems, right? things like doing math problems, right? Even if it's it's something that's just Even if it's it's something that's just Even if it's it's something that's just mental, systolic blood pressure actually mental, systolic blood pressure actually mental, systolic blood pressure actually goes up in anticipation of your body or goes up in anticipation of your body or goes up in anticipation of your body or your mind needing to do something, your mind needing to do something, your mind needing to do something, taking the first steps on a goal. So taking the first steps on a goal. So taking the first steps on a goal. So then it helps us to understand of like then it helps us to understand of like then it helps us to understand of like okay if I've just created this dream okay if I've just created this dream okay if I've just created this dream board, this vision board and put myself board, this vision board and put myself board, this vision board and put myself psychologically in that space of a goal psychologically in that space of a goal psychologically in that space of a goal satisfied. Why is it bad that blood satisfied. Why is it bad that blood satisfied. Why is it bad that blood pressure goes down? Because it means pressure goes down? Because it means pressure goes down? Because it means your body is chilling out. It's like all your body is chilling out. It's like all your body is chilling out. It's like all right, cool. I just accomplished right, cool. I just accomplished right, cool. I just accomplished something pretty major. I actually now something pretty major. I actually now something pretty major. I actually now don't have the physiological resources don't have the physiological resources don't have the physiological resources at the ready to take the first step at the ready to take the first step at the ready to take the first step right now to do something about that. right now to do something about that. right now to do something about that. So, so that was a pretty monumental um So, so that was a pretty monumental um So, so that was a pretty monumental um uh finding for motivation scientists to uh finding for motivation scientists to uh finding for motivation scientists to understand that like creating these understand that like creating these understand that like creating these dream boards, these vision boards or dream boards, these vision boards or dream boards, these vision boards or to-do list might actually backfire to-do list might actually backfire to-do list might actually backfire because it in it in and of itself is the because it in it in and of itself is the because it in it in and of itself is the creation of a goal and the satisfaction creation of a goal and the satisfaction creation of a goal and the satisfaction of the goal and then people of the goal and then people of the goal and then people understandably give themselves some time understandably give themselves some time understandably give themselves some time to just enjoy that positive experience. to just enjoy that positive experience. to just enjoy that positive experience. >> Everything you're saying again is >> Everything you're saying again is >> Everything you're saying again is consistent what we know about the consistent what we know about the consistent what we know about the physiology of dopamine circuits for physiology of dopamine circuits for physiology of dopamine circuits for motivation. I have a a good friend who motivation. I have a a good friend who motivation. I have a a good friend who perhaps in incidentally perhaps not is a perhaps in incidentally perhaps not is a perhaps in incidentally perhaps not is a cardiologist uh at a major university cardiologist uh at a major university cardiologist uh at a major university who said that uh one of the major errors who said that uh one of the major errors who said that uh one of the major errors that people make uh with bookw writing that people make uh with bookw writing that people make uh with bookw writing and completion is they will tell people and completion is they will tell people and completion is they will tell people they're going to write a book and people they're going to write a book and people they're going to write a book and people will say oh you definitely should write will say oh you definitely should write will say oh you definitely should write a book everyone's going to love your a book everyone's going to love your a book everyone's going to love your book and they never end up writing it book and they never end up writing it book and they never end up writing it and his theory is that they get so much and his theory is that they get so much and his theory is that they get so much >> dopamine reward from that immediate >> dopamine reward from that immediate >> dopamine reward from that immediate feedback with all the protection of feedback with all the protection of feedback with all the protection of never having the book criticized never having the book criticized never having the book criticized >> that they never write the book. I'm sure >> that they never write the book. I'm sure >> that they never write the book. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but um I there are exceptions to this, but um I there are exceptions to this, but um I guess it raises the question, what's the guess it raises the question, what's the guess it raises the question, what's the better strategy? better strategy? better strategy? >> Yeah. So, I'm not saying that people who >> Yeah. So, I'm not saying that people who >> Yeah. So, I'm not saying that people who enjoy uh dream board creation should enjoy uh dream board creation should enjoy uh dream board creation should stop what they're doing, but the process stop what they're doing, but the process stop what they're doing, but the process of goal setting shouldn't stop with of goal setting shouldn't stop with of goal setting shouldn't stop with articulating what the goal is. So, at articulating what the goal is. So, at articulating what the goal is. So, at that same point that we're trying to that same point that we're trying to that same point that we're trying to figure out what do we want to do? What figure out what do we want to do? What figure out what do we want to do? What what is my vision for the future? In what is my vision for the future? In what is my vision for the future? In those planning sessions, we need to those planning sessions, we need to those planning sessions, we need to simultaneously uh think about a couple simultaneously uh think about a couple simultaneously uh think about a couple other things. One is um how are we going other things. One is um how are we going other things. One is um how are we going to get there? So take it out of the to get there? So take it out of the to get there? So take it out of the abstract, take it out of this idyllic abstract, take it out of this idyllic abstract, take it out of this idyllic visual iconography and start thinking visual iconography and start thinking visual iconography and start thinking about the practical day-to-day. We need about the practical day-to-day. We need about the practical day-to-day. We need to break it down into more manageable to break it down into more manageable to break it down into more manageable goals. Not just my 10-year plan for goals. Not just my 10-year plan for goals. Not just my 10-year plan for myself, but my twoe plan. What what can myself, but my twoe plan. What what can myself, but my twoe plan. What what can I accomplish in the next two weeks and I accomplish in the next two weeks and I accomplish in the next two weeks and the two weeks after that's going to set the two weeks after that's going to set the two weeks after that's going to set me on the right trajectory? Plan big me on the right trajectory? Plan big me on the right trajectory? Plan big picture. Think big picture abstractly, picture. Think big picture abstractly, picture. Think big picture abstractly, but then also break it down more but then also break it down more but then also break it down more concretely. That's probably not concretely. That's probably not concretely. That's probably not surprising, but it's an important aspect surprising, but it's an important aspect surprising, but it's an important aspect of the goal setting process. Then again, of the goal setting process. Then again, of the goal setting process. Then again, Gabriel Oten in my department has Gabriel Oten in my department has Gabriel Oten in my department has identified a third often overlooked or identified a third often overlooked or identified a third often overlooked or underappreciated stage that has to underappreciated stage that has to underappreciated stage that has to happen at that goal in the goal setting happen at that goal in the goal setting happen at that goal in the goal setting process and that's thinking about the process and that's thinking about the process and that's thinking about the obstacles that stand in your way of obstacles that stand in your way of obstacles that stand in your way of success and that will actually help success and that will actually help success and that will actually help improve motivation in the long run. And improve motivation in the long run. And improve motivation in the long run. And sometimes people think that that like is sometimes people think that that like is sometimes people think that that like is counterintuitive. You're saying like for counterintuitive. You're saying like for counterintuitive. You're saying like for if I want to increase my motivation, if I want to increase my motivation, if I want to increase my motivation, have more motivation, then I need to have more motivation, then I need to have more motivation, then I need to think about how hard it's going to be, think about how hard it's going to be, think about how hard it's going to be, all the ways that I'm going to fail all the ways that I'm going to fail all the ways that I'm going to fail because it's like coming up with a plan because it's like coming up with a plan because it's like coming up with a plan B, a plan C, plan D in advance of B, a plan C, plan D in advance of B, a plan C, plan D in advance of actually experiencing that. If you were actually experiencing that. If you were actually experiencing that. If you were on a boat and the boat started to sink, on a boat and the boat started to sink, on a boat and the boat started to sink, that's not the time you want to start that's not the time you want to start that's not the time you want to start looking for life jackets, you already looking for life jackets, you already looking for life jackets, you already want to know where one is so you can go want to know where one is so you can go want to know where one is so you can go to it right away. And it's the same to it right away. And it's the same to it right away. And it's the same thing with goal setting is that you want thing with goal setting is that you want thing with goal setting is that you want to know what am I working towards, how to know what am I working towards, how to know what am I working towards, how I'm going to get there, and if I I'm going to get there, and if I I'm going to get there, and if I experience this obstacle, here's what experience this obstacle, here's what experience this obstacle, here's what I'm going to do about it. You may never I'm going to do about it. You may never I'm going to do about it. You may never experience that obstacle, but if you do, experience that obstacle, but if you do, experience that obstacle, but if you do, you're probably going to be shy on time, you're probably going to be shy on time, you're probably going to be shy on time, thin on resources, maybe experiencing an thin on resources, maybe experiencing an thin on resources, maybe experiencing an anxiety that hijacks your brain, so anxiety that hijacks your brain, so anxiety that hijacks your brain, so you're not functioning at that optimal you're not functioning at that optimal you're not functioning at that optimal level of judgment and decision-m. You level of judgment and decision-m. You level of judgment and decision-m. You want to already have like the snap next want to already have like the snap next want to already have like the snap next step in place so you can just hop to it, step in place so you can just hop to it, step in place so you can just hop to it, right? We're not going to do our best right? We're not going to do our best right? We're not going to do our best thinking when we're in crisis mode. Um, thinking when we're in crisis mode. Um, thinking when we're in crisis mode. Um, but we don't have to if we have used if but we don't have to if we have used if but we don't have to if we have used if we have already used our resources in we have already used our resources in we have already used our resources in advance to come up with that plan B or advance to come up with that plan B or advance to come up with that plan B or that plan C. Michael Phelps like that plan C. Michael Phelps like that plan C. Michael Phelps like incredible athlete, right? This is incredible athlete, right? This is incredible athlete, right? This is something that he and his coach have something that he and his coach have something that he and his coach have routinely incorporated into their uh routinely incorporated into their uh routinely incorporated into their uh into their training. Back in 2008, he into their training. Back in 2008, he into their training. Back in 2008, he was hot for the first time on the was hot for the first time on the was hot for the first time on the international stage. It was the Beijing international stage. It was the Beijing international stage. It was the Beijing Olympics. Michael Phelps was on the Olympics. Michael Phelps was on the Olympics. Michael Phelps was on the brink of doing something that no one brink of doing something that no one brink of doing something that no one else in the history of the Olympic Games else in the history of the Olympic Games else in the history of the Olympic Games has ever done, which is win eight gold has ever done, which is win eight gold has ever done, which is win eight gold medals in a single Olympiad. At the time medals in a single Olympiad. At the time medals in a single Olympiad. At the time of this story, he had already won seven of this story, he had already won seven of this story, he had already won seven and he had just the 200 fly in front of and he had just the 200 fly in front of and he had just the 200 fly in front of him before he could do what no one else him before he could do what no one else him before he could do what no one else has ever done, win the eighth gold has ever done, win the eighth gold has ever done, win the eighth gold medal. And the fly is his thing, right? medal. And the fly is his thing, right? medal. And the fly is his thing, right? This should have been this should have This should have been this should have This should have been this should have been easy, like a no-brainer. He's going been easy, like a no-brainer. He's going been easy, like a no-brainer. He's going to win this. He's going to break Olympic to win this. He's going to break Olympic to win this. He's going to break Olympic history. As soon as he dove into the history. As soon as he dove into the history. As soon as he dove into the pool, his goggles started to leak. And pool, his goggles started to leak. And pool, his goggles started to leak. And by the time he had done three lengths of by the time he had done three lengths of by the time he had done three lengths of the pool, he just had to flip around and the pool, he just had to flip around and the pool, he just had to flip around and and come back to the to the starting and come back to the to the starting and come back to the to the starting line/finish line, back to the edge. Um, line/finish line, back to the edge. Um, line/finish line, back to the edge. Um, by the time that happened, his goggles by the time that happened, his goggles by the time that happened, his goggles were completely filled with water and he were completely filled with water and he were completely filled with water and he was swimming blind. I would have was swimming blind. I would have was swimming blind. I would have panicked. I would have sunk to the panicked. I would have sunk to the panicked. I would have sunk to the bottom of the pool. I wouldn't have even bottom of the pool. I wouldn't have even bottom of the pool. I wouldn't have even been in the pool to be honest. Like, I'm been in the pool to be honest. Like, I'm been in the pool to be honest. Like, I'm not a swimmer. Definitely not going to not a swimmer. Definitely not going to not a swimmer. Definitely not going to be in the Olympics. But, uh, but for be in the Olympics. But, uh, but for be in the Olympics. But, uh, but for him, he didn't. It wasn't a moment of him, he didn't. It wasn't a moment of him, he didn't. It wasn't a moment of panic like it probably would have been panic like it probably would have been panic like it probably would have been for nearly every other person in that for nearly every other person in that for nearly every other person in that situation because he had foreshadowed situation because he had foreshadowed situation because he had foreshadowed that kind of possible failure. He had that kind of possible failure. He had that kind of possible failure. He had imagined that obstacle hitting him in imagined that obstacle hitting him in imagined that obstacle hitting him in advance and not even just imagined it advance and not even just imagined it advance and not even just imagined it but practiced it. What will we do? He but practiced it. What will we do? He but practiced it. What will we do? He routinely practiced swimming with his routinely practiced swimming with his routinely practiced swimming with his goggles not fully secured on his face. goggles not fully secured on his face. goggles not fully secured on his face. His coach notoriously would uh rip the His coach notoriously would uh rip the His coach notoriously would uh rip the goggles off of his head, smash them on goggles off of his head, smash them on goggles off of his head, smash them on the ground for maybe dramatic effect or the ground for maybe dramatic effect or the ground for maybe dramatic effect or something so that he didn't even have something so that he didn't even have something so that he didn't even have any goggles possible to grab as he's as any goggles possible to grab as he's as any goggles possible to grab as he's as he's in practice. So because he had he's in practice. So because he had he's in practice. So because he had foreshadowed that possibility and the foreshadowed that possibility and the foreshadowed that possibility and the solution if my goggles start to leak solution if my goggles start to leak solution if my goggles start to leak then I will do in his case start then I will do in his case start then I will do in his case start counting my strokes then I'll make it counting my strokes then I'll make it counting my strokes then I'll make it through. He knew exactly how many through. He knew exactly how many through. He knew exactly how many strokes it would take for him to get strokes it would take for him to get strokes it would take for him to get from one end of the pool to the other. from one end of the pool to the other. from one end of the pool to the other. He started counting his strokes. He won He started counting his strokes. He won He started counting his strokes. He won that he won that race the 200 fly. He that he won that race the 200 fly. He that he won that race the 200 fly. He won his eighth gold medal and he'd go on won his eighth gold medal and he'd go on won his eighth gold medal and he'd go on to win 15 more in his career. So we to win 15 more in his career. So we to win 15 more in his career. So we might not all be swimmers. We might not might not all be swimmers. We might not might not all be swimmers. We might not all aspire to Olympic level performance. all aspire to Olympic level performance. all aspire to Olympic level performance. But I love that example because I think But I love that example because I think But I love that example because I think it it helps sort of demystify or give us it it helps sort of demystify or give us it it helps sort of demystify or give us an alternative perspective on the an alternative perspective on the an alternative perspective on the importance um and the motivational importance um and the motivational importance um and the motivational reasons why thinking about obstacles in reasons why thinking about obstacles in reasons why thinking about obstacles in advance. Thinking about the ways the two advance. Thinking about the ways the two advance. Thinking about the ways the two three four ways that your plan might go three four ways that your plan might go three four ways that your plan might go ary is actually effective at helping us ary is actually effective at helping us ary is actually effective at helping us to overcome the obstacle that might to overcome the obstacle that might to overcome the obstacle that might otherwise lead us to throw in the towel. otherwise lead us to throw in the towel. otherwise lead us to throw in the towel. So I do think that there's great power So I do think that there's great power So I do think that there's great power in thinking about our visual experience in thinking about our visual experience in thinking about our visual experience alongside other tactics that we might alongside other tactics that we might alongside other tactics that we might use for meeting our goals. I have a use for meeting our goals. I have a use for meeting our goals. I have a question and I to be honest I know the question and I to be honest I know the question and I to be honest I know the answer in advance but I'd love for you answer in advance but I'd love for you answer in advance but I'd love for you to tell us a bit about how unfit people to tell us a bit about how unfit people to tell us a bit about how unfit people view the world versus how fit people view the world versus how fit people view the world versus how fit people view the world or how unmotivated people view the world or how unmotivated people view the world or how unmotivated people visually see the world as opposed to visually see the world as opposed to visually see the world as opposed to highly motivated people. Maybe you could highly motivated people. Maybe you could highly motivated people. Maybe you could describe that study. I think it's a describe that study. I think it's a describe that study. I think it's a particularly important one mostly particularly important one mostly particularly important one mostly because yes it identifies a perhaps a because yes it identifies a perhaps a because yes it identifies a perhaps a physiological or psychological physiological or psychological physiological or psychological differences between motivated and differences between motivated and differences between motivated and unmotivated or or uh fit and unfit unmotivated or or uh fit and unfit unmotivated or or uh fit and unfit people but it also provides a a path to people but it also provides a a path to people but it also provides a a path to to remedy that. to remedy that. to remedy that. >> Yeah. So out of my lab but also out of >> Yeah. So out of my lab but also out of >> Yeah. So out of my lab but also out of several other labs there's been work several other labs there's been work several other labs there's been work looking looking at that relation between looking looking at that relation between looking looking at that relation between states of the body and visual states of the body and visual states of the body and visual experiences. They haven't necessarily experiences. They haven't necessarily experiences. They haven't necessarily tried to integrate the motivation tried to integrate the motivation tried to integrate the motivation science element um to it, but they were science element um to it, but they were science element um to it, but they were looking to see do visual experiences looking to see do visual experiences looking to see do visual experiences change as a function of different states change as a function of different states change as a function of different states of our body. So they've looked at people of our body. So they've looked at people of our body. So they've looked at people who experience chronic fatigue. Um the who experience chronic fatigue. Um the who experience chronic fatigue. Um the elderly, people who are overweight, um elderly, people who are overweight, um elderly, people who are overweight, um those that are, you know, wearing those that are, you know, wearing those that are, you know, wearing wearing heavy backpacks and so who are wearing heavy backpacks and so who are wearing heavy backpacks and so who are sort of put into that experience of sort of put into that experience of sort of put into that experience of being overweight. What happens to their being overweight. What happens to their being overweight. What happens to their perceptions of the environment? Well, perceptions of the environment? Well, perceptions of the environment? Well, what they find is that distances look what they find is that distances look what they find is that distances look further to those that are overweight, further to those that are overweight, further to those that are overweight, chronically tired, older rather than chronically tired, older rather than chronically tired, older rather than younger, weighted down with with extra younger, weighted down with with extra younger, weighted down with with extra baggage. Um, distances look further and baggage. Um, distances look further and baggage. Um, distances look further and hills look steeper. We've done some of hills look steeper. We've done some of hills look steeper. We've done some of those studies, too, where we try to like those studies, too, where we try to like those studies, too, where we try to like give people more energy or or deprive give people more energy or or deprive give people more energy or or deprive them of of energy and see does that them of of energy and see does that them of of energy and see does that change their their perception of space. change their their perception of space. change their their perception of space. They do this a lot in medical studies. They do this a lot in medical studies. They do this a lot in medical studies. You give somebody a a drug and you give You give somebody a a drug and you give You give somebody a a drug and you give somebody a placebo, a sugar pill, and somebody a placebo, a sugar pill, and somebody a placebo, a sugar pill, and then uh importantly, nobody really knows then uh importantly, nobody really knows then uh importantly, nobody really knows who's got what until you've analyzed all who's got what until you've analyzed all who's got what until you've analyzed all the data and the results are revealed the data and the results are revealed the data and the results are revealed that that these are the people that that that that these are the people that that that that these are the people that that had the drug, the active agent. Same had the drug, the active agent. Same had the drug, the active agent. Same idea in the psychological research. In idea in the psychological research. In idea in the psychological research. In this case, what we did was give people this case, what we did was give people this case, what we did was give people Kool-Aid to drink. And for some people, Kool-Aid to drink. And for some people, Kool-Aid to drink. And for some people, that Kool-Aid was sweetened with sugar, that Kool-Aid was sweetened with sugar, that Kool-Aid was sweetened with sugar, an actual caloric entity. It could give an actual caloric entity. It could give an actual caloric entity. It could give them energy. other people drank Kool-Aid them energy. other people drank Kool-Aid them energy. other people drank Kool-Aid sweetened with Splenda. So, yeah, it's sweetened with Splenda. So, yeah, it's sweetened with Splenda. So, yeah, it's sweet, but it actually doesn't have any sweet, but it actually doesn't have any sweet, but it actually doesn't have any caloric value. You're not giving people caloric value. You're not giving people caloric value. You're not giving people energy. You're just giving them that energy. You're just giving them that energy. You're just giving them that that experience um of of sweetness. Now, that experience um of of sweetness. Now, that experience um of of sweetness. Now, some people, of course, are really good some people, of course, are really good some people, of course, are really good at identifying like what's what's real at identifying like what's what's real at identifying like what's what's real sugar and what's Splenda. But when you sugar and what's Splenda. But when you sugar and what's Splenda. But when you put it into Kool-Aid, a pretty noxious put it into Kool-Aid, a pretty noxious put it into Kool-Aid, a pretty noxious powder, it actually masked it for powder, it actually masked it for powder, it actually masked it for everybody and nobody had any idea. We everybody and nobody had any idea. We everybody and nobody had any idea. We asked them to guess what they got. We asked them to guess what they got. We asked them to guess what they got. We tested them afterwards and they were tested them afterwards and they were tested them afterwards and they were wrong. So nobody is able to guess u with wrong. So nobody is able to guess u with wrong. So nobody is able to guess u with accuracy what was your drink sweetened accuracy what was your drink sweetened accuracy what was your drink sweetened with which is important because they with which is important because they with which is important because they were blind that the way that scientists were blind that the way that scientists were blind that the way that scientists use it. They didn't know what it was use it. They didn't know what it was use it. They didn't know what it was that they were drinking. We give them that they were drinking. We give them that they were drinking. We give them about 10 to 15 minutes for that sugar to about 10 to 15 minutes for that sugar to about 10 to 15 minutes for that sugar to metabolize and we measured uh their metabolize and we measured uh their metabolize and we measured uh their circulating blood glucose levels to make circulating blood glucose levels to make circulating blood glucose levels to make sure that we had in fact given their sure that we had in fact given their sure that we had in fact given their body circ you know circulating glucose body circ you know circulating glucose body circ you know circulating glucose energy that they might use in the next energy that they might use in the next energy that they might use in the next um activity. And um and the researcher um activity. And um and the researcher um activity. And um and the researcher again didn't know whether they had just again didn't know whether they had just again didn't know whether they had just served sugar or Splenda. Then we asked served sugar or Splenda. Then we asked served sugar or Splenda. Then we asked people to estimate distance. So we gave people to estimate distance. So we gave people to estimate distance. So we gave some people more energy or we kept some people more energy or we kept some people more energy or we kept others sort of at like whatever their others sort of at like whatever their others sort of at like whatever their normal level was. And what we found is normal level was. And what we found is normal level was. And what we found is that those people who didn't even know that those people who didn't even know that those people who didn't even know it but who had been given more energy by it but who had been given more energy by it but who had been given more energy by drinking Kool-Aid sweetened with sugar drinking Kool-Aid sweetened with sugar drinking Kool-Aid sweetened with sugar perceived their space as as more perceived their space as as more perceived their space as as more constricted. They that visual illusion constricted. They that visual illusion constricted. They that visual illusion of proximity was induced. they felt that of proximity was induced. they felt that of proximity was induced. they felt that their finish line again in the context their finish line again in the context their finish line again in the context of an exercise task was closer to them. of an exercise task was closer to them. of an exercise task was closer to them. So in just the same way that these other So in just the same way that these other So in just the same way that these other physiology labs vision science physiology labs vision science physiology labs vision science physiology labs found that people who physiology labs found that people who physiology labs found that people who are chronically tired who don't have are chronically tired who don't have are chronically tired who don't have don't feel like they have as much energy don't feel like they have as much energy don't feel like they have as much energy or those that are physically weighted or those that are physically weighted or those that are physically weighted down and for whom you know moving within down and for whom you know moving within down and for whom you know moving within an environment is more costly. Um we an environment is more costly. Um we an environment is more costly. Um we could create that experience for people. could create that experience for people. could create that experience for people. We did an experimental version of that We did an experimental version of that We did an experimental version of that that if you have more energy the world that if you have more energy the world that if you have more energy the world looks easier. the distances to a finish looks easier. the distances to a finish looks easier. the distances to a finish line don't look as far. So that was some line don't look as far. So that was some line don't look as far. So that was some of the experimental evidence that we had of the experimental evidence that we had of the experimental evidence that we had um to show that people states to their um to show that people states to their um to show that people states to their body do impact their visual experience. body do impact their visual experience. body do impact their visual experience. Now I'm a motivation researcher. So for Now I'm a motivation researcher. So for Now I'm a motivation researcher. So for me the big question is well what's the me the big question is well what's the me the big question is well what's the point of that study then besides just point of that study then besides just point of that study then besides just showing this connection between the body showing this connection between the body showing this connection between the body and the eyes and the visual experience. and the eyes and the visual experience. and the eyes and the visual experience. We think that that's fundamental to one We think that that's fundamental to one We think that that's fundamental to one of the reasons that people experience of the reasons that people experience of the reasons that people experience difficulty when they're exercising when difficulty when they're exercising when difficulty when they're exercising when it's really harder for your body because it's really harder for your body because it's really harder for your body because of its physical state to move within a of its physical state to move within a of its physical state to move within a space. You might say like, well, why space. You might say like, well, why space. You might say like, well, why don't they just go exercise? Because the don't they just go exercise? Because the don't they just go exercise? Because the world looks harder to them. Because that world looks harder to them. Because that world looks harder to them. Because that distance that that they're supposed to distance that that they're supposed to distance that that they're supposed to walk because a doctor tells them to or walk because a doctor tells them to or walk because a doctor tells them to or that a partner encourages them to or a that a partner encourages them to or a that a partner encourages them to or a hill that they should hike up because hill that they should hike up because hill that they should hike up because someone told them that would be good for someone told them that would be good for someone told them that would be good for their health, it looks more challenging their health, it looks more challenging their health, it looks more challenging to them than it does to somebody who to them than it does to somebody who to them than it does to somebody who isn't who who isn't who's in who is in isn't who who isn't who's in who is in isn't who who isn't who's in who is in better physical health. Now, if it looks better physical health. Now, if it looks better physical health. Now, if it looks that way, if it looks harder, if it that way, if it looks harder, if it that way, if it looks harder, if it feels like it might be harder, then feels like it might be harder, then feels like it might be harder, then psychologically we know that it is. When psychologically we know that it is. When psychologically we know that it is. When you have set yourself up you have set yourself up you have set yourself up psychologically, mentally for that kind psychologically, mentally for that kind psychologically, mentally for that kind of failure experience, like I don't know of failure experience, like I don't know of failure experience, like I don't know that I have the resources that to get that I have the resources that to get that I have the resources that to get this job done. This this looks really this job done. This this looks really this job done. This this looks really hard. You're already motivationally in a hard. You're already motivationally in a hard. You're already motivationally in a place u for this task to be closer to place u for this task to be closer to place u for this task to be closer to impossible for you. So to put it all impossible for you. So to put it all impossible for you. So to put it all together then what we know is that together then what we know is that together then what we know is that people whose bodies might make it more people whose bodies might make it more people whose bodies might make it more challenging for them to exercise um are challenging for them to exercise um are challenging for them to exercise um are seeing the world in a more challenging seeing the world in a more challenging seeing the world in a more challenging way and that is having these downstream way and that is having these downstream way and that is having these downstream motivational and psychological effects motivational and psychological effects motivational and psychological effects that makes it less likely for them to that makes it less likely for them to that makes it less likely for them to try to take on the task in the first try to take on the task in the first try to take on the task in the first place or to experience it as harder than place or to experience it as harder than place or to experience it as harder than than other people would or do. than other people would or do. than other people would or do. >> Is the solution the same? However, >> Is the solution the same? However, >> Is the solution the same? However, meaning if these people are taught to meaning if these people are taught to meaning if these people are taught to adjust their visual goal line or to set adjust their visual goal line or to set adjust their visual goal line or to set a visual spotlight on an intermediate a visual spotlight on an intermediate a visual spotlight on an intermediate goal, can they overcome some of this uh goal, can they overcome some of this uh goal, can they overcome some of this uh this challenge that they face simply by this challenge that they face simply by this challenge that they face simply by virtue of their skewed perception? virtue of their skewed perception? virtue of their skewed perception? >> Yes. So in all of the studies that we >> Yes. So in all of the studies that we >> Yes. So in all of the studies that we have done um looking at that connection have done um looking at that connection have done um looking at that connection between this narrowed focus of attention between this narrowed focus of attention between this narrowed focus of attention and improvements in exercise we do not and improvements in exercise we do not and improvements in exercise we do not find that it only works for the people find that it only works for the people find that it only works for the people who are in shape or that it backfires who are in shape or that it backfires who are in shape or that it backfires for people who are out of shape. It for people who are out of shape. It for people who are out of shape. It works for everybody. This is a strategy works for everybody. This is a strategy works for everybody. This is a strategy that everybody can adopt because it's that everybody can adopt because it's that everybody can adopt because it's just simply about like what do you just simply about like what do you just simply about like what do you allocate attentional resources to? What allocate attentional resources to? What allocate attentional resources to? What do you sort of ignore and what do you do you sort of ignore and what do you do you sort of ignore and what do you focus on? And that in that visually focus on? And that in that visually focus on? And that in that visually induces the same kind of illusion for induces the same kind of illusion for induces the same kind of illusion for everybody regardless of whether you're everybody regardless of whether you're everybody regardless of whether you're overweight or you're or you're at your overweight or you're or you're at your overweight or you're or you're at your target weight um or if you're struggling target weight um or if you're struggling target weight um or if you're struggling to get there or you've already to get there or you've already to get there or you've already accomplished where you want to be. That accomplished where you want to be. That accomplished where you want to be. That visual illusion can be induced for visual illusion can be induced for visual illusion can be induced for everybody and it has the same kinds of everybody and it has the same kinds of everybody and it has the same kinds of consequences. consequences. consequences. >> Are there any studies looking at how >> Are there any studies looking at how >> Are there any studies looking at how adrenaline or epinephrine or any other adrenaline or epinephrine or any other adrenaline or epinephrine or any other stimulants impact motivation? if you stimulants impact motivation? if you stimulants impact motivation? if you actually are more physiologically actually are more physiologically actually are more physiologically aroused or jazzed or whatever you know aroused or jazzed or whatever you know aroused or jazzed or whatever you know amped up um or you just think you are uh amped up um or you just think you are uh amped up um or you just think you are uh in our studies we have found that they in our studies we have found that they in our studies we have found that they work in the same way that it can produce work in the same way that it can produce work in the same way that it can produce the same kinds of consequences. So and I the same kinds of consequences. So and I the same kinds of consequences. So and I like that because it tells us like you like that because it tells us like you like that because it tells us like you can actually change the state of your can actually change the state of your can actually change the state of your body to induce these kinds of body to induce these kinds of body to induce these kinds of experiences or you can try to you can experiences or you can try to you can experiences or you can try to you can just think that you can trick yourself just think that you can trick yourself just think that you can trick yourself you can placebo effect yourself out and you can placebo effect yourself out and you can placebo effect yourself out and produce the same kinds of effects. I had produce the same kinds of effects. I had produce the same kinds of effects. I had to give up coffee like 12 years ago. Not to give up coffee like 12 years ago. Not to give up coffee like 12 years ago. Not because not for any I love the taste and because not for any I love the taste and because not for any I love the taste and so decaf is my jam. Um but I can't drink so decaf is my jam. Um but I can't drink so decaf is my jam. Um but I can't drink the caffeine because it it didn't the caffeine because it it didn't the caffeine because it it didn't actually do the thing that it does for actually do the thing that it does for actually do the thing that it does for so many other people like make me feel so many other people like make me feel so many other people like make me feel more energized and more awake. I just more energized and more awake. I just more energized and more awake. I just got sweaty and jittery and anxious and I got sweaty and jittery and anxious and I got sweaty and jittery and anxious and I couldn't focus. And I happen to marry couldn't focus. And I happen to marry couldn't focus. And I happen to marry the same kind of person. He also can't the same kind of person. He also can't the same kind of person. He also can't drink caffeine but loves the taste of drink caffeine but loves the taste of drink caffeine but loves the taste of coffee. The interesting thing is that we coffee. The interesting thing is that we coffee. The interesting thing is that we both have to have coffee in the morning both have to have coffee in the morning both have to have coffee in the morning to feel like we're ready to go for the to feel like we're ready to go for the to feel like we're ready to go for the day. So, it's just part of our routine day. So, it's just part of our routine day. So, it's just part of our routine or whatever to have that taste and have or whatever to have that taste and have or whatever to have that taste and have that sensation to feel like I'm ready to that sensation to feel like I'm ready to that sensation to feel like I'm ready to take on the day. Even though I mean, take on the day. Even though I mean, take on the day. Even though I mean, yeah, decaf still has some caffeine in yeah, decaf still has some caffeine in yeah, decaf still has some caffeine in it, but we're not drinking that much of it, but we're not drinking that much of it, but we're not drinking that much of it to probably actually create a it to probably actually create a it to probably actually create a caffeinated experience in our body, but caffeinated experience in our body, but caffeinated experience in our body, but we're tricking ourselves psychologically we're tricking ourselves psychologically we're tricking ourselves psychologically into into doing that thing that in years into into doing that thing that in years into into doing that thing that in years past used to work for us both. past used to work for us both. past used to work for us both. >> I'd love to ask about other kinds of >> I'd love to ask about other kinds of >> I'd love to ask about other kinds of goals, meaning non-physical goals. Is goals, meaning non-physical goals. Is goals, meaning non-physical goals. Is there any example or tactic that people there any example or tactic that people there any example or tactic that people could use to um better approach could use to um better approach could use to um better approach cognitive goals of school, work, but cognitive goals of school, work, but cognitive goals of school, work, but that don't exist in the fitness and that don't exist in the fitness and that don't exist in the fitness and sports domain? sports domain? sports domain? >> Totally. A couple years ago when when I >> Totally. A couple years ago when when I >> Totally. A couple years ago when when I was writing the book, I I also had a was writing the book, I I also had a was writing the book, I I also had a child the same the same month that I had child the same the same month that I had child the same the same month that I had the opportunity to like pull all this the opportunity to like pull all this the opportunity to like pull all this research together is the same month that research together is the same month that research together is the same month that that my son came to be. And uh and I that my son came to be. And uh and I that my son came to be. And uh and I started to realize like I became a lot started to realize like I became a lot started to realize like I became a lot less interesting once he was around. He less interesting once he was around. He less interesting once he was around. He was fascinating, but I was changing was fascinating, but I was changing was fascinating, but I was changing diapers and feeding him and like that diapers and feeding him and like that diapers and feeding him and like that was it. People would come over like was it. People would come over like was it. People would come over like what's up? How have you been? Like tell what's up? How have you been? Like tell what's up? How have you been? Like tell me something that's going on in your me something that's going on in your me something that's going on in your life and like all I had to talk about life and like all I had to talk about life and like all I had to talk about was this what was boring and I just felt was this what was boring and I just felt was this what was boring and I just felt like I've lost myself. I used to pride like I've lost myself. I used to pride like I've lost myself. I used to pride myself on the crazy adventures and myself on the crazy adventures and myself on the crazy adventures and problems I would get myself in and I was problems I would get myself in and I was problems I would get myself in and I was a great storyteller and that all of a a great storyteller and that all of a a great storyteller and that all of a sudden disappeared as soon as he came sudden disappeared as soon as he came sudden disappeared as soon as he came into the world because he became my into the world because he became my into the world because he became my world. So then I started thinking like I world. So then I started thinking like I world. So then I started thinking like I need to pull back some coolness in if I need to pull back some coolness in if I need to pull back some coolness in if I ever had it in the first place, but I ever had it in the first place, but I ever had it in the first place, but I need to be a cooler person that I'm need to be a cooler person that I'm need to be a cooler person that I'm coming across right now. So I decided I coming across right now. So I decided I coming across right now. So I decided I want to learn to play drums. I'm and I want to learn to play drums. I'm and I want to learn to play drums. I'm and I want to be like a a one-h hit wonder as want to be like a a one-h hit wonder as want to be like a a one-h hit wonder as a as a rockstar drummer. So that's a a as a rockstar drummer. So that's a a as a rockstar drummer. So that's a goal that I set for myself at the same goal that I set for myself at the same goal that I set for myself at the same time that my son came into this world time that my son came into this world time that my son came into this world when I was also trying to think about when I was also trying to think about when I was also trying to think about goal setting and how to improve my goal setting and how to improve my goal setting and how to improve my ability and all of our ability to to get ability and all of our ability to to get ability and all of our ability to to get a job done when you're faced with some a job done when you're faced with some a job done when you're faced with some pretty big obstacles. So I got to pretty big obstacles. So I got to pretty big obstacles. So I got to practice all these techniques that we're practice all these techniques that we're practice all these techniques that we're talking about on myself and see for talking about on myself and see for talking about on myself and see for myself when I tell people, hey, try this myself when I tell people, hey, try this myself when I tell people, hey, try this thing like narrowed focus of attention. thing like narrowed focus of attention. thing like narrowed focus of attention. Does it help with something like Does it help with something like Does it help with something like becoming a better drummer? And the becoming a better drummer? And the becoming a better drummer? And the answer is yeah. These tactics at least answer is yeah. These tactics at least answer is yeah. These tactics at least work for me sometimes under some work for me sometimes under some work for me sometimes under some circumstances and they do for other circumstances and they do for other circumstances and they do for other people who try them for other goals that people who try them for other goals that people who try them for other goals that aren't necessarily about exercise. One aren't necessarily about exercise. One aren't necessarily about exercise. One that I found particularly helpful was that I found particularly helpful was that I found particularly helpful was overcoming my bad memory that overcoming my bad memory that overcoming my bad memory that everybody's memories are faulty, right? everybody's memories are faulty, right? everybody's memories are faulty, right? Everybody has sort of a a warped Everybody has sort of a a warped Everybody has sort of a a warped perception of the past. It might be perception of the past. It might be perception of the past. It might be skewed more positively than maybe we skewed more positively than maybe we skewed more positively than maybe we deserve or it might be skewed more deserve or it might be skewed more deserve or it might be skewed more negatively if you feel that you know negatively if you feel that you know negatively if you feel that you know what looms large in your mind as you what looms large in your mind as you what looms large in your mind as you reflect on something from the past are reflect on something from the past are reflect on something from the past are the mistakes that you've made or the the mistakes that you've made or the the mistakes that you've made or the things that the social faux paws that things that the social faux paws that things that the social faux paws that you had or you know challenges that you you had or you know challenges that you you had or you know challenges that you faced at work when you got in trouble faced at work when you got in trouble faced at work when you got in trouble with a boss or with a colleague. If with a boss or with a colleague. If with a boss or with a colleague. If that's what really stands out in your that's what really stands out in your that's what really stands out in your mind mind mind or the good side of all of those or the good side of all of those or the good side of all of those possibilities, we probably aren't possibilities, we probably aren't possibilities, we probably aren't getting the world right. And and that is getting the world right. And and that is getting the world right. And and that is something that our brain has evolved to something that our brain has evolved to something that our brain has evolved to give us a faulty memory to level and give us a faulty memory to level and give us a faulty memory to level and sharpen to not encode and remember and sharpen to not encode and remember and sharpen to not encode and remember and be able to recall everything that we've be able to recall everything that we've be able to recall everything that we've experienced with accuracy and precision. experienced with accuracy and precision. experienced with accuracy and precision. And that's a problem when it comes to And that's a problem when it comes to And that's a problem when it comes to assessing our own goal progress when we assessing our own goal progress when we assessing our own goal progress when we want to be our own accountant and try to want to be our own accountant and try to want to be our own accountant and try to determine how are we doing. If I want to determine how are we doing. If I want to determine how are we doing. If I want to become a drummer, am I on track for become a drummer, am I on track for become a drummer, am I on track for getting there before X before my time getting there before X before my time getting there before X before my time runs out? Am I going to make it or not? runs out? Am I going to make it or not? runs out? Am I going to make it or not? And I think that's an experience whether And I think that's an experience whether And I think that's an experience whether they want to be a drummer or not that a they want to be a drummer or not that a they want to be a drummer or not that a lot of people can resonate with of like lot of people can resonate with of like lot of people can resonate with of like trying to determine is this trajectory, trying to determine is this trajectory, trying to determine is this trajectory, is this rate of progress going to get is this rate of progress going to get is this rate of progress going to get the job done by x amount of time? Will I the job done by x amount of time? Will I the job done by x amount of time? Will I have my swimsuit body by summer or will have my swimsuit body by summer or will have my swimsuit body by summer or will I save enough for retirement by the time I save enough for retirement by the time I save enough for retirement by the time I hit 65? For these goals where time is I hit 65? For these goals where time is I hit 65? For these goals where time is involved and there is a deadline, uh we involved and there is a deadline, uh we involved and there is a deadline, uh we do take moments to assess our our do take moments to assess our our do take moments to assess our our trajectory. And if we just rely on our trajectory. And if we just rely on our trajectory. And if we just rely on our memory, we're probably going to do a bad memory, we're probably going to do a bad memory, we're probably going to do a bad job of assessing that the that job of assessing that the that job of assessing that the that trajectory of knowing whether we're on trajectory of knowing whether we're on trajectory of knowing whether we're on pace to meeting our deadline. And I pace to meeting our deadline. And I pace to meeting our deadline. And I found that to be the case as I was found that to be the case as I was found that to be the case as I was thinking about, am I actually going to thinking about, am I actually going to thinking about, am I actually going to be able to learn this song? I mean, I be able to learn this song? I mean, I be able to learn this song? I mean, I know that it's going a lot slower than know that it's going a lot slower than know that it's going a lot slower than it probably would for anybody else, but it probably would for anybody else, but it probably would for anybody else, but to give myself a deadline and a to give myself a deadline and a to give myself a deadline and a commitment, I decided I was going to put commitment, I decided I was going to put commitment, I decided I was going to put on a show. I was going to invite on a show. I was going to invite on a show. I was going to invite everybody I knew and also people I everybody I knew and also people I everybody I knew and also people I didn't know, and I was going to play my didn't know, and I was going to play my didn't know, and I was going to play my one song for them. So, in the process of one song for them. So, in the process of one song for them. So, in the process of like figuring out, am I gonna be able to like figuring out, am I gonna be able to like figuring out, am I gonna be able to play this show? I sent out invitations. play this show? I sent out invitations. play this show? I sent out invitations. Like, the date is committed. Like, Like, the date is committed. Like, Like, the date is committed. Like, people are coming to listen to my one people are coming to listen to my one people are coming to listen to my one song. God bless them. Um, how is it song. God bless them. Um, how is it song. God bless them. Um, how is it going to go? And and it felt awful. It going to go? And and it felt awful. It going to go? And and it felt awful. It just felt like I am not making progress just felt like I am not making progress just felt like I am not making progress here because there's a lot more things here because there's a lot more things here because there's a lot more things that actually are pressing, right? Like that actually are pressing, right? Like that actually are pressing, right? Like the kid does need to get fed. I do have the kid does need to get fed. I do have the kid does need to get fed. I do have to go to my day job. The editor is to go to my day job. The editor is to go to my day job. The editor is asking for the next draft of this book. asking for the next draft of this book. asking for the next draft of this book. And that is going to take precedence And that is going to take precedence And that is going to take precedence like it does for so many people that like it does for so many people that like it does for so many people that that things command your your bandwidth that things command your your bandwidth that things command your your bandwidth even when you have this goal that you've even when you have this goal that you've even when you have this goal that you've committed to and that you've got, you committed to and that you've got, you committed to and that you've got, you know, on the books. And so I just felt know, on the books. And so I just felt know, on the books. And so I just felt this looming anxiety about this this this looming anxiety about this this this looming anxiety about this this goal that would require, you know, like goal that would require, you know, like goal that would require, you know, like didn't have to be daily practice, but didn't have to be daily practice, but didn't have to be daily practice, but like you can't you can't cram that kind like you can't you can't cram that kind like you can't you can't cram that kind of a a goal. It does take, you know, of a a goal. It does take, you know, of a a goal. It does take, you know, committed investment for a sustained committed investment for a sustained committed investment for a sustained period of time. And so I had this period of time. And so I had this period of time. And so I had this looming anxiety that I'm not making good looming anxiety that I'm not making good looming anxiety that I'm not making good enough progress. But that's because I enough progress. But that's because I enough progress. But that's because I was relying on my memory and my brain to was relying on my memory and my brain to was relying on my memory and my brain to to recall like how many times did you to recall like how many times did you to recall like how many times did you practice? What was it like the last time practice? What was it like the last time practice? What was it like the last time you practiced? What was it like when you you practiced? What was it like when you you practiced? What was it like when you tried to play this bit, you know, or tried to play this bit, you know, or tried to play this bit, you know, or this riff like 2 weeks ago? Have you this riff like 2 weeks ago? Have you this riff like 2 weeks ago? Have you gotten any better since then? And it gotten any better since then? And it gotten any better since then? And it just felt like no, I haven't practiced just felt like no, I haven't practiced just felt like no, I haven't practiced enough. I don't remember when the last enough. I don't remember when the last enough. I don't remember when the last time I played was, but it definitely time I played was, but it definitely time I played was, but it definitely doesn't feel like I'm getting any doesn't feel like I'm getting any doesn't feel like I'm getting any better. Then I thought, you know what? I better. Then I thought, you know what? I better. Then I thought, you know what? I should stop relying on my brain to tell should stop relying on my brain to tell should stop relying on my brain to tell me where am I at and is is am I on an me where am I at and is is am I on an me where am I at and is is am I on an upward slope here? I need to look at the upward slope here? I need to look at the upward slope here? I need to look at the data. I love data. Scientists love data. data. I love data. Scientists love data. data. I love data. Scientists love data. So, I started to collect data on myself. So, I started to collect data on myself. So, I started to collect data on myself. What I did was download this app that a What I did was download this app that a What I did was download this app that a friend had told me about called the friend had told me about called the friend had told me about called the reporter app. There's lots of these reporter app. There's lots of these reporter app. There's lots of these kinds of things out there. Basically, it kinds of things out there. Basically, it kinds of things out there. Basically, it just like sets up your phone to randomly just like sets up your phone to randomly just like sets up your phone to randomly ping you with whatever questions you ping you with whatever questions you ping you with whatever questions you want your phone to ask. It records your want your phone to ask. It records your want your phone to ask. It records your answers. You can download the data. you answers. You can download the data. you answers. You can download the data. you can make pretty graphs to see am I can make pretty graphs to see am I can make pretty graphs to see am I getting how what's my change and how getting how what's my change and how getting how what's my change and how I've answered these questions over time. I've answered these questions over time. I've answered these questions over time. So I did that for a month. I had my So I did that for a month. I had my So I did that for a month. I had my phone ask me, you know, a couple times a phone ask me, you know, a couple times a phone ask me, you know, a couple times a day, did you practice since last time I day, did you practice since last time I day, did you practice since last time I asked you? My phone says, did you asked you? My phone says, did you asked you? My phone says, did you practice? If mostly it was no, and if practice? If mostly it was no, and if practice? If mostly it was no, and if yes, then it would funnel a couple other yes, then it would funnel a couple other yes, then it would funnel a couple other questions like, how did you do? How do questions like, how did you do? How do questions like, how did you do? How do you feel? Check a couple different you feel? Check a couple different you feel? Check a couple different emotion words now about your experience emotion words now about your experience emotion words now about your experience uh when you played. And I did that for a uh when you played. And I did that for a uh when you played. And I did that for a month. after a month went into my month. after a month went into my month. after a month went into my office, downloaded the data and first office, downloaded the data and first office, downloaded the data and first took stock before I looked at the took stock before I looked at the took stock before I looked at the numbers like how do I think I did over numbers like how do I think I did over numbers like how do I think I did over the last month and I thought same as the last month and I thought same as the last month and I thought same as every other month I like I didn't really every other month I like I didn't really every other month I like I didn't really get anywhere. Yeah, I practiced but I get anywhere. Yeah, I practiced but I get anywhere. Yeah, I practiced but I still feel awful. But what I found from still feel awful. But what I found from still feel awful. But what I found from the data was my memory was totally the data was my memory was totally the data was my memory was totally wrong. I actually had practiced far more wrong. I actually had practiced far more wrong. I actually had practiced far more times than I remembered. And when I times than I remembered. And when I times than I remembered. And when I looked at like my emotion words that I looked at like my emotion words that I looked at like my emotion words that I used, it was a clear upward trajectory. used, it was a clear upward trajectory. used, it was a clear upward trajectory. Yeah, I did cry. that part I hadn't Yeah, I did cry. that part I hadn't Yeah, I did cry. that part I hadn't misremembered or made up. But by the end misremembered or made up. But by the end misremembered or made up. But by the end of that month, like I had gotten a of that month, like I had gotten a of that month, like I had gotten a compliment from my husband who actually compliment from my husband who actually compliment from my husband who actually is a drummer and said like, "Hey, that is a drummer and said like, "Hey, that is a drummer and said like, "Hey, that that wasn't that bad." All of which is that wasn't that bad." All of which is that wasn't that bad." All of which is to say I needed to see to collect that to say I needed to see to collect that to say I needed to see to collect that data on myself and to look at it data on myself and to look at it data on myself and to look at it objectively accurately and completely objectively accurately and completely objectively accurately and completely because my brain wasn't doing that for because my brain wasn't doing that for because my brain wasn't doing that for me. that visual experience of of me. that visual experience of of me. that visual experience of of downloading that data and and looking at downloading that data and and looking at downloading that data and and looking at like what was my actual experience um like what was my actual experience um like what was my actual experience um gave me a better insight as I was trying gave me a better insight as I was trying gave me a better insight as I was trying to assess the trajectory of my of my to assess the trajectory of my of my to assess the trajectory of my of my progress. I became a more accurate progress. I became a more accurate progress. I became a more accurate accountant of my own progress which is accountant of my own progress which is accountant of my own progress which is important for you know setting goals or important for you know setting goals or important for you know setting goals or resetting them when you need to resetting them when you need to resetting them when you need to calibrate in light of of what's left to calibrate in light of of what's left to calibrate in light of of what's left to do and how much time do you have to do do and how much time do you have to do do and how much time do you have to do it in. it in. it in. >> Fantastic. Well, you've given us a ton >> Fantastic. Well, you've given us a ton >> Fantastic. Well, you've given us a ton of mechanistic and uh conceptual and of mechanistic and uh conceptual and of mechanistic and uh conceptual and practical information. So, I'm I'm practical information. So, I'm I'm practical information. So, I'm I'm speaking for a lot of people when I say speaking for a lot of people when I say speaking for a lot of people when I say thank you for taking the time out of thank you for taking the time out of thank you for taking the time out of your schedule amidst kids and running a your schedule amidst kids and running a your schedule amidst kids and running a lab and teaching at the university. And lab and teaching at the university. And lab and teaching at the university. And we hope to have you back again. we hope to have you back again. we hope to have you back again. >> Thank you so much. It was a great >> Thank you so much. It was a great >> Thank you so much. It was a great conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks.