Dream Expert: What It Actually Means When They Show Up in Your Dreams | Dr. Rahul Jandial

Key Takeaway

Tomorrow morning, protect the first 5-10 minutes after waking. Don’t reach for email or social media; lie still, recall any dream, and write down its strongest image and emotion. Most dreams may be ordinary anxiety, universal themes, or noise, but a hyper-emotional dream that lingers can be useful data about stress, relationships, or unresolved feelings. Treat it as an invitation to reflect—not as a literal prediction or diagnosis.

Episode Overview

Dr. Rahul Jandial, neurosurgeon and author of "This Is Why You Dream," explains dreaming as an active, emotionally liberated and highly imaginative brain state—not passive rest. He discusses universal dream patterns, nightmares, lucid dreaming, recurring dreams, and ways to engage deliberately with dream recall and nightmare rescripting.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Dream Expert: What It Actually Means When They Show Up in Your Dreams | Dr. Rahul Jandial from On Purpose. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

So, let's get right into it. And the first question I have for you is: does everyone dream? I think so. So, here's how I would describe it. First, let's debunk the great myth that dreaming and sleeping are moments of rest for our brain. Our brains do not rest while we sleep. Just imagine someone lying down. And when they sleep, the heart emits a little electricity that we capture with the EKG on the surface of the heart. We place several electrodes on the scalp and there is a vibrating electricity while we sleep.

The electricity our brain generates while sleeping is just as intense as the electricity it generates right now. So, that's the first thing. The second thing is that, while the heart pumps blood, the brain absorbs glucose. It's burning up metabolically. So, inside the skull while we are lying down, even though we don't remember much, we are burning and generating electricity. That's why both people who remember their dreams and those who don't continue to have an active brain and generate a lot of electricity. So I think it's more a matter of memory upon waking.

At the same time, we all know nightmares. So, we've all had dreams. The question is, why do some people dream more, dream less, or remember more or less of their dreams? And that's something I think is related to the variety of human experience. We don't keep our thoughts within the same rigid boundaries when we wake up, do we ? Therefore, our dreamscape, our dream life, is something individual between us. We remember more when we are young and we remember less as we get older. And then , in certain illnesses, dreams come to the rescue.

And it seems now that at the end of life, as with my cancer patients, dreams return. And they are full of reconciliation. One would think that their struggle would be dark, but in reality they are positive. So those dream patterns are there, brain electricity fires when you sleep, and that's the basis from which I try to find meaning in dreams. Absolutely. I mean, the book is called "This Is Why You Dream" . Why do we dream, and why is it important for us to understand why we dream?

Because I think a lot of people say, "Yes, sometimes I dream, sometimes I don't." "Who cares?" "What's the big deal?" But I find it fascinating. I know a lot of people are. So why do we dream, and why is it important to try to understand why we dream? The idea that it's not a big deal is completely wrong for those who think that if they understand that we potentially spend a third of our lives dreaming, the brain will shut us down, right? It's only a third .

In other words, that can't be passive. And it knocks you down, right? It's like you feel the pressure of sleep. I need to sleep. Well, when I was in my surgical training, we would skip a night's sleep. What happens when someone skips a night's sleep? The following night they dream more intensely and earlier. If I may be bold, sleep is for the brain . It's not for the thigh muscle. It's not good for our liver. There are some metabolic changes. I don't rule them all out, but what really drives us to sleep is our brain.

What does our brain do with so much energy when we sleep? Dream. So that's my straightforward answer, but that doesn't happen by accident, right? That's not a mistake. That hasn't lasted through 30,000 generations by chance. So the question is, if we have this vibrant third of our lives that we partially remember, sometimes we remember, sometimes it's an exciting journey, sometimes erotic, sometimes a nightmare. What's it all about, you know? And the way I've come to understand it is, first, by respecting the people who have tried to propose some ideas.

It's like a rehearsal for threats. If we run away from a woolly mammoth in our dreams, we are better prepared for the day. What I would say is maybe. And when I say maybe or probably, it's out of respect for you and your listeners. I don't want to be that guy who comes here and says yes or no about something as big and magical as dreaming. So, a rehearsal of threats, perhaps. Some people think he is a night therapist because towards morning, when we have more vivid dreams, the emotional balance, the valence as they call it, tends to be more positive.

Maybe. I like to think of it as something that stimulates creativity because of what happens to the dreaming brain. The dreaming brain looks for more scattered points to connect. It is imaginative by design. Logic is muted. So I think it's our engine of creativity. And the way I sum it all up is with something straightforward called "use it or lose it," which people know when we talk about the brain, right? They say, "Hey, use it or lose it ." We know that if we don't use our biceps, they atrophy.

But our day , if you look at the electricity of brain activation, is very limited. The brain wants to be efficient, right? Because it consumes a lot of energy. It only weighs about 2 kilos, but uses 20% of our blood. So, during the day, in order to navigate the world with outward-oriented executive network logic , the brain wants to be efficient. Driving on Highway 101 with ease, riding the subway with ease, without having to activate everything to achieve it. If we only use those limited parts of our brain during the day and we didn't have a way to train them at high intensity, they would be neglected.

We wouldn't use them and we could lose them. So , I believe that, in the broadest possible sense, the process of dreaming and dreams are a high-intensity workout for our brain. It keeps those corners active. It keeps those neurons firing that might not be during the day, and those remain available to us the next day for a creative process, or for the next year, or for the next generation in an adaptive process. That's my most grandiose and romantic way of thinking about why we dream so much.

Yes, I like the "maybe" because I think we've all had different dreams that you feel you had for different reasons. And there are some dreams that you did feel were, as you said, your night therapist, this feeling of: "Okay, I'm getting better ." "I'm learning." Something. Yes, you're solving something. I've definitely had dreams where I feel, "Oh my God, this seems to reflect my reality and I'm either preparing for it or processing it internally." And I think you're absolutely right that there are so many different processes that it's difficult to limit it to just one.

Is there a way to start labeling and defining, or do you think that 's unhealthy when it comes to dreaming? Perfect question. So, to " maybe" I'll add "probable". You know, it 's not yes and no when it comes to my dream, your dream, infinitely wild. Okay? But what happens when you start analyzing 10,000 dreams? What happens when you start ... So, I'm here... So , there's no professor of dream science, is there? So, when the publisher asked me, I said, "Can you write a book about this?" I think we were connecting with this before , uh, before we started streaming or recording this.

And it was like, they said to me, "You wrote this about the brain, like, you know, smart drugs, Alzheimer's, creativity. Then you wrote this about the mind, like resilience, trauma, beliefs, and your own struggles. Why don't you write something about dreams from a scientific perspective that everyone can read?" And I said, "There are going to be a lot of gaps." And they said, " Then tell us where the gaps are. Say maybe, say probably, and say I wonder, I think." And that's what I've tried to do in the book.

But to answer your question about when I started this process, it was when I analyzed not your dream, nor my dream, but 10,000 dreams. Aristotle wrote about lucid dreams. A couple of hundred years ago, they were still writing about being persecuted or falling. And I said, "Wait a second." There are patterns in dream reports. Like now they have dream banks. So the first thing I noticed was that nightmares and erotic dreams are essentially universal. I say essentially because 90 percent or more in this world consider themselves 100, right?

Because that's how science works. Uh, when you look at questionnaires and surveys. So everyone has had a nightmare. Erotic dreams are almost on par. And then being chased, falling, uh, having your teeth fall out, that seems to be common. And then there was a dream that was reported very rarely. Do math. Now, I do n't like math, so I said, that's fine by me, but you start when you look at thousands of dreams, and you say, why is that one so rare? So now, come with me this way .

Then you start observing brain scans and brain electricity. And what happened? What's the difference between the waking brain and the dreaming brain, right? In a 24-hour cycle, we are 2/3 of awake brain and 1/3 of dreaming brain. And there are some transitional zones that I love, I call them liminal states or fuzzy zones that we can enter, but when you see that and you say, "Well, what's the difference? I started out thinking they're both burning, both sparking like, uh, electricity. So, what's the difference?" So, when you switch from the waking brain to the dreaming brain, what happens is that the need to look outward changes, right?

So the executive network, a set of structures, not just one thing, is attenuated. Logic and mathematical ability are diminished. They don't turn off. Nothing shuts down in the brain, otherwise, you know, you'd have a stroke. Then, it attenuates, the network of imagination and the emotional systems called limbic structures are released. So, if we now know that the dreaming brain, as a measurement, is not my opinion, right? We can talk about opinions, but this is a measurement. If the dreaming brain has attenuated logic, reason, and mathematics, and liberated emotions, and is hypervisual, it makes sense why we don't see much mathematics.

Because that part of the brain that does that takes a back seat while we dream. So I said, "Okay, even if that's all I can say in this book, and some young person, you know, 10, 20, 30 years from now, takes more data from dream banks that are more inclusive and involve more people, that the patterns of how we dream, you know, and what we dream can be explained by the brain." And that, for me, was fascinating. So, dreams are not limitless. Yours are, mine are too, but when you look at many of them, nightmares occur universally, erotic dreams occur essentially universally, and then we find very emotional, visual, and movement-based dreams.

Mhm. That's fascinating. I mean, you do n't even think about it that way, and I think that's often interesting because it's a microcosm of how we live our lives. It's like we live our lives thinking that nobody understands me, nobody knows what I'm going through , only I have this experience . And suddenly, when you step back and look at the patterns, you say: wait a minute, we're all struggling with the same thing. I was recently talking to someone and we were discussing how we seem to be the problem solvers in our families.

And then you start to realize that, wait a minute, we're all trying to solve the same problems, we're dealing with the same emotions. And those patterns are very useful for finding, so basically, have you been looking at dream patterns and then stress and lifestyle patterns ? Is that what you're measuring them against, or what are the patterns being measured against? So, if out of 10,000 people, 9,000 dreamed that their teeth were falling out, what are we measuring in their lives to give meaning to that dream?

Yes, that's a great question. And besides, we tend to fall into the same traps, don't we? I believe that observing brain science demonstrates that yes, we are individuals, but what drives us and what holds us back is also something we share. That's why these conversations, that's why a certain book, a certain song, or a certain interaction can liberate you in some way. And the way I would explain this is, uh , the sleep patterns they're analyzing, and when I say "they," I mean 20, 40 years of different studies, I try to put them together.

Let me give you a specific one. There was a survey questionnaire where women who were going through a divorce, when in their dreams they accepted that things were ending and that people moved on, that group tended to recover better from the divorce. And then, when you just look and say, "Okay, that's very interesting." Those who struggled in their dreams were also more likely to experience depression for a longer period of time. And so, what that does for me is invite a conversation. So, does sleep, or the dreaming brain, give us a clue as to how well we are coping with the stress of our real life?

That alone is powerful. The brain knows what's going on. It's not another brain. It's your brain. He's just in this dream mode. So he does know what's going on . Your daily life feeds your dream life. I mean, 6, 7, 8 hours, how do you process? How do you digest? How do you metabolize the hardest part of your day ? And I think that's what I love about it, that they're not separate things. And that the dreaming brain can be your guide. It may be what helps you process emotional trauma.

And for people with post-traumatic stress disorder , it can even replay memories. So it's a wild space that leans towards the emotional, towards the visual. Let me give you a second example. With my patients, cancer patients at the end of their lives, the dreams are expansive, positive, full of reconciliation. While they're asking for surgeries and all that, you'd think everyone's going to be awful because these are dark times. Stressful, isn't it? You believe that daily stress turns into stress when you dream. But the connection is not clear.

And that's where I believe the power of our dream life lies. I believe that, in general, when looking at all the surveys, dreaming is our guide. At the end of life, I believe that nightmares and erotic dreams cultivate the young mind, just as our minds are cultivated in adolescence. Dreams reflect what happens during our lives. For example, dreams during pregnancy. Pregnant women have very different dreams. Turning over in bed, what will babies be called? Sometimes, anxiety upon waking and anxiety while dreaming are clearly linked. I have to give a talk tomorrow, and I dream that I appear naked.

I have an exam, alarms. Sometimes they are clear. Sometimes they are your companions, your pregnancy dreams. Dreams at the end of life. Sometimes they're just garbage. Not everything has to make sense, right? Our life upon waking has no meaning. So I think that when you start to look at those categories, with the fourth category being universal dreams, nightmares, and erotic dreams in children, the one that remains, the one I spend even more time on now, is that hyper-emotional, hyper-visual one, which lasts until the next day.

What I would say is, don't let that one get away. It's a solar flare of your brain in a unique state that you can't access during the day. Hyperemotional, hyperliberated. The measurements of emotion in our dreaming brain can reach a maximum speed that our waking brain can never achieve. So, for me, when I look at the whole picture, the hyper-emotional, hyper-visual thing with a central image, it's a dream that has emerged from your dream life, that is about you, and that a therapist cannot reach. In other words, your brain conjured it up, and that's one to reflect on.

What I would say is that not always, not with everyone, but in our search for well-being and healing, it is a free and accessible portal. And when I was working on this book with the UK publishers, there were seven or eight people who said, "We're dreaming more." "We are remembering our dreams more." Some lucid people, you know, had lucid dreams. So that's the second thing I would say: this can be induced and cultivated. You are not a passenger in your dream life. And what you remember from your dream life, you can also cultivate.

You're not a passenger at that stage either. Hmm. Let's talk a little about that. So, I was going to ask you, if you don't remember your dream, if you don't make the subconscious conscious, does that mean it has no effect? ​​And are you encouraging us to take the time to make the subconscious conscious and reflect on our dreams? I would say that I cannot fully answer the first question . The second question is: absolutely try to get involved in your dream life. The entrance to sleep, when you go from wakefulness to sleep as Salvador Dalí did or as Christopher Nolan talks about in Inception.

The exit from sleep, with which we can enter lucid dreaming. The answer to the question of whether we should get involved in our dream life? Yes, yes, yes. I have a lot of science on the subject. I have a lot of personal experience with this. Come on, let's delve deeper into that. I mean , there are so many things I want to talk about, but since we've come to this, let's delve deeper right now . Have you found any links between going to sleep with or without your phone and how that affects our dreams, or if you watch a particular TV show, how that affects your sleep and what you do in the morning?

Is there any correlation between those things? That's a great question. What you said about waking up, I'll get to that in the section on waking up, because there's some interesting science there. But when you look at all these surveys, that's why I started by saying we need more dream banks. We need people who have a large social media presence to start talking about their dreams. At this point, they don't appear to be accumulating. Dreams, well, let's take a specific example. Erotic dreams tend to be about a small group of people in your life.

Family, even when you're younger , awful bosses, and celebrities. So, I'm curious to see, well, that doesn't mean there are a hundred articles on the subject, but those are the snippets of information I saw, so what is it that becomes familiar to us? Well, you know, people have uncomfortable dreams about their bosses, right? They have sexual dreams about people they are not actually attracted to. That 's a big category in erotic dreams, but is there a specific reason for having erotic dreams about people you're not attracted to?

Where does that come from? Do n't know. I think we are now entering the realm of opinions . I think it's a power dynamic game, and I think intimacy can be both collaborative and a power dynamic, and a mixture of all of those, right? But that's just one exploration, but erotic dreams, since we're on the subject and we'll come out of the dream again, are, uh, they're interesting. We all have them. They arrive before we have performed the erotic act, even if we have not seen it.

So it is, it's almost like an instruction, so to speak. A legacy of thought, not only of risk-taking or mental health, but we inherit those dreams; Even people who never have sex continue to have erotic dreams. Almost like a manual designed to get our mind to activate our brain and body for the act of procreation. That's the big issue. What is specific is that, between cultures and across generations, the percentages are surprisingly similar, more than 90%. The other surprising thing is that 80 to 90% of these reports talk about infidelity.

Infidelity is common in erotic dreams. Whether you're in a healthy relationship, whether you're lying in a healthy relationship and want someone else, or whether you're in a bad relationship, it's almost like something semi-incorporated. And I think that's how I've learned to think about erotic dreams: they're just desire. It's like a flare of desire. Interestingly, he usually addresses a small group, but the acts are usually savage. There are some points you mentioned in the book that fascinated me, since we're on the topic of erotic dreams. I shared it with the team a moment ago.

There are three things here, but let's go one by one. So, erotic dreams are not fueled by masturbation or pornography. Explain that to me. That's what some reports mentioned a decade ago. Now that might be changing, but what I find interesting is that it's not what we do during the day that appears in our erotic dreams. Actually, it's what we secretly fantasize about during the day that is most likely to appear in our erotic dreams. And scientifically, for me, I think that makes a lot of sense because the process of dreaming is the network of the liberated imagination.

So, it makes sense that what you imagine in your dream life is more connected to the fantasy you have while you are awake. Regardless of the sexual act, the sexual person, what leads someone to climax, the thoughts they have during that process, with or without their lover, it is the internal thought of desire during the day that tends to be found in erotic dreams. And for me, that makes sense if you think of the dreaming brain as having a liberated network of imagination. It's an imaginative process, isn't it?

Your eyes are closed, it's that movie you make for yourself. So, whatever you think about during the day, you know, that's the movie you make at night. So, going back to what you were saying before, if someone is in a happy relationship, but you say that it's still common for them to cheat in their dreams. a separate pattern, yes. Yes, that's a pattern you've seen. So, is that an argument that the person may be happy in the relationship, but is... I ca n't fantasize. I ca n't answer that because it would be ...

No, I love the question, I really do. That's a profound question. What I would tell you is that, from there, what people ask is whether your dreams tend to have more bisexuality. So, does that mean you're bisexual and just haven't realized it , or that you don't share it with anyone during the day? I can't answer that, but I think as we bring in more dream bank reports and more cultures, more backgrounds, more genders, and more diverse perspectives on sexuality, we'll gain insights into that .

But that's a very individual thing. So, in general, there are many instances of infidelity in erotic dreams. In general, what appears in our erotic dreams is what we imagine, and then it depends on each person. That's why I started by saying, you know, people have asked me, "If you dream about your ex, does that mean you really love him?" I was saying, "Well, if you're still seriously thinking about them, if you're obsessing about them during the day and dreaming about your ex, that means one thing." But if you say, "No , I've actually moved on," and a lover appears in your dream, I think it's just a solar flare of desire.

I wouldn't give that much importance . Mhm. I think that's the difficult part, isn't it? I think what we don't know is how seriously to take some of the dreams. a dream or not, because I feel that a lot of people, exactly as you just said , have a dream about something and think, "Oh, God, maybe I need that, maybe not." And is that a lack of self-awareness? Is it because the dream is unclear? So, how have we thought about that as we've reflected on dreams?

How do we improve our ability to know whether to take a dream seriously or not? Because I feel that would help solve many of our riddles or dilemmas created by dreams. Yes, that's a great question. ask. That's a great question. I'd love to hear your opinion. Yeah . Yes, my opinion on the matter is that, first of all, dreams should not be ignored . OK? Nightmares, if they appear suddenly and come out of nowhere , should not be ignored. I believe that dreams that are retrospective memories following PTSD should obviously not be ignored.

So, there are some dreams that have an easier rule to follow, so to speak . But what about those other dreams you mentioned, right? Like those intensely emotional ones that haunt you throughout the day, and you wonder: wait a minute, is this a revelation about myself that I haven't yet grasped? Should I talk about this with a therapist? Should I talk about this with my partner? And I think the way I've started to reflect on my dreams is that, when they're hyper-emotional, they're an invitation to see your life in a different way.

Okay, I feel like I'm doing well. I am a high-performing person. I do this. No... you know, you feel like no, that everything is fine. I'm dealing with a breakup, but if you start having nightmares or emotional dreams filled with fear or regret, I'm not saying there's always an automatic bond, right? Apart from appearing naked on a podium or the alarm not going off. But the one who is powerful and pursues you, and it makes no sense. That's an invitation to think about something. And going back to our original conversation, for me, a well- examined life consists of paying attention to those emotionally powerful dreams that accompany you.

The dream is symbolic to arrive at your answer in the most specific way. The dream is a metaphor. Dreams are symbolic. Because the brain, when dreaming , hypervisual and hyperemotional, is not going to tell you clearly. It's going to be metaphorical. It's going to be symbolic. As a specific example, Vietnam veterans with PTSD who have improved, begin to divorce and have difficulties, but do not dream about divorce. They dream of war again . So the experiences you have are an invitation to reflect. The meaning is metaphorical and symbolic, based on how the dreaming brain is constructed .

And it's personal. It's difficult to say that a bridge or a light bulb in your life at this moment will have the same meaning for me at this moment in my life. Or in my life 10 years from now. Mhm. Not even for earlier versions of myself. I'm not here to refute anything, but it's a very personal process. Your brain created it. It is a hyper-emotional state. It might not mean anything. It could mean something, but what I'm trying to say is that you should analyze it.

Yes. It 's not just static. No, I totally agree with you . I think that's a great point. Do people have the same dream over and over again, or do they have different dreams each night? Well, that's a good question. Recurring dreams exist. As a specific example, the only thing I can say with certainty is that dreams come from our brain. We perform these exotic brain surgeries where we wake people up to map the surface of the brain. You don't feel... You wouldn't know if it would affect your brain if the situation arose, which it won't, but the brain doesn't feel.

The brain senses through its nerves. That's why we can dissect someone's brain while they're talking. The point is not to scare anyone. It's a therapeutic process, but when we stimulate and map the brain, they say, "Oh, I remember this nightmare from when I was a child." But you can trigger a recurring nightmare in a patient by stimulating the surface of the brain. So dreams come from the brain . Recurring dreams exist. That 's individual. There are common dreams that people have, such as falling, being chased, or having their teeth fall out.

They are universal dreams. You start to see all these patterns. A recurring dream is a loop of electricity in that part of your brain that appears over and over again. It must be so, because if we use a small probe and stimulate it and you have that dream again, it's something integrated into the electrical flows of your brain. We need to take a step back when asking these questions because there are so many types of dreams and dream experiences that I do n't want to give a single answer, but recurring dreams are like electrical loops that happen over and over again .

We can actually activate that. And then, universal, common and rare dreams is how I conceptualize it. What does someone do if they have a recurring dream that they no longer want to have? Mhm, great question. Um, okay, let's analyze that. Um, now we have the foundation: awake brain, dreaming brain, hyper-imaginative, hyper-emotional. Um, you're creating the events of your dreamscape. And I find it very powerful that, since we imagine nightmares, the treatment for them is something called imagery rehearsal therapy. However, I am not a therapist. I mean, I 've treated many cancer patients.

I have treated more than 10,000 in my life. So, there is a...there is a relationship that I have cultivated thanks to their trust in me. Therefore , I believe I have some understanding of human nature, but therapy, when you try to help someone through conversation, talk therapy, right? That's great. It seems to be effective. That already exists. What they are discovering is that imagery rehearsal therapy is something new, where you imagine what you want to happen. Imagine something you don't want to have. And when I read that, I thought, "Ah, I don't know if I can convince myself of that." Until I started reading about nightmares and learning about them in different sciences, and that if you practice before going to sleep, going back a bit to what you said about how we can actually feed our dreams, if you practice a new script for the end of your nightmares, you can rewrite them through something called imagery rehearsal therapy .

People can look it up. And not always , nor for everyone, but the mere fact that nightmares can be rewritten is powerful. You think you're not in control, but you can nurture your dreams, you can direct your dreams, and lucid dreaming is the prime example of that. And that therapy can guide you towards a better conclusion in your dream; I love that as a scientist because it's the web of imagination. You have imagined this nightmare, and it is powerful to think that you can now imagine a different kind of ending for it.

For me, all of that is scientifically consistent. And that's why I think it's powerful to see dreams as something more magical, more fascinating, that is being driven by certain brain processes, right? So, you don't wake up and say, "Uh, that...that's a glitch. Uh, that's static." No, there's something that prompted that. Learn about the engine behind it and then reflect on its meaning. Yes, definitely. I mean, I can relate to that. I feel that there have been parts of my life where I have been able to program the emotion, the feeling, and the script with which I wake up, according to what I put in the code before going to sleep.

And so, at one point in my life, when I was trying to get up early and not enjoying it, my reaction upon waking up in the morning was: "Ugh, I'm so tired." I just want to stay in bed. "Just me, you know." And I wanted to get up early. I believed it was a worthwhile goal and a habit worth investing in. So, before going to sleep, I would tell myself, "I wake up energized, happy, and healthy." Even with that nightly reprogramming, I found that upon waking, I would still be telling myself that .

And there was a direct link to a script that wasn't written in the morning—it wasn't there— but that repetition carried over into the morning. And I found that whenever I used it, it worked. And when I don't use it, I can still wake up and think, " Oh my God, why am I getting up so early?" "I've had moments where I've had experiences like that. I want to go back to nightmares because I grew up having a lot of them . I remember one of them very vividly even today.

I don't dream about it anymore, but I remember waking up in the middle of the night feeling terrified. And in the book, you mention how children are the ones who have the most nightmares. It's quite common. Children have five times more nightmares than adults, you say. Even the most peaceful childhood doesn't protect against nightmares. And I think that's really unsettling for parents when their children have nightmares. I have friends with children who tell me, 'Oh God, she just won't sleep.'" "He has nightmares." And it's like you're trying to work it out.

And well, you 're a parent, so it's interesting to hear how you might have felt about that . I'm sure a lot of people listening right now are thinking, "God, I definitely had nightmares as a kid." When you have that as a kid, it can be very disconcerting. It can be very difficult, even more so than as an adult, because you really feel powerless. What have been some ... Have there been any therapies or remedies that have helped? But then you go on to say that nightmares are necessary.

Exactly. So, explain that to me. Okay . So, when I was thinking about this book, I was walking around Los Angeles visiting different places and just interacting with people, you know, ordinary people at Dodger Stadium. And I would often get questions like, okay, you're going to talk about dreams and dreaming. You know, to give a new perspective on it. But clearly nightmares can't be good for you, right? There's no utility for nightmares. And I thought, I have to address this directly in chapter two. So , When I analyze that, I would ask people to think about nightmares in relation to age.

And we do that in the hospital, in medicine, in surgery, and in science, where they are related to age; I would say pediatric and adult. We've talked about adults, about flashbacks; if nightmares appear, you have to pay attention to them. They could be a warning sign of some mental health problems. You have them more in states of depression. You know, we've moved beyond that. How to explain nightmares in children is an exploration. It's a conversation. I think it's something new. And I analyzed several pieces that helped me develop an idea, a story, if you will.

So, if you look at the first thing that struck me about nightmares, it's that you have to say, "Hey, Johnny, that was just a nightmare." It's only with nightmares that we tell our children, "That was just a nightmare." So, as a conversation, does that mean that Johnny was mixing up the thoughts of the dreaming brain and the waking brain up to that point? Wait a minute ? That's a power; I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm just leaving it up to your audience. That's one.

Nightmares do that. By definition, nightmares wake you up and get etched into your memory. Okay? Just like our kids learn to walk and talk, our minds are being cultivated. So, they had these families who enrolled all their kids to be woken up and talk about their dreams for about 20 years straight. They're called longitudinal studies. Kids, when they first start talking about their dreams, they say, "A table." You know, a sweater. Then they get more imaginative. And what happens is, at 5, 6, 7 years old, nightmares come in.

What else is coming in? They're developing visuospatial skills. And they're also developing this thing called theory of mind. People can look up these terms. That kids at some point develop the ability to look at someone and say, "That smile, I do n't think it's good." Mind reading. Reading the other person's intent, right? That Theory of mind arrives at the same time as nightmares. My main way of conceptualizing this is that nightmares come to children to help them develop a sense of self in relation to others.

To help them not to have an identity, but to understand that my thoughts and experiences are my own, that my waking life and my dream life are distinct, and that I should see myself as someone different from my uncles, aunts, and the people around me. And I think that's the function of nightmares in children. They may have had many, but they come and go, and very few develop into a nightmare disorder. That is, they don't ruin their next day. It's almost as if, while in adults nightmare disorder implies that the residue persists, in children it doesn't.

If we look at the patterns, children learn to walk and talk. Nightmares arrive around 4, 5, or 6 years old, and most disappear. Erotic dreams appear around 11, 12, or 13 years old and persist in some form. Adolescence arrives around... 15 or 16. But these are cognitive changes. The brain looks more or less the same. It's not like a new lobe suddenly appears. It's cognitive changes that are happening. That's why I think nightmares cultivate the mind in children. They come and go. Things that happen so universally in science aren't accidental.

And the dream we 've always had, the one we've all had, is a nightmare. Mhm. Yes, I find that fascinating. So, before we get into lucid dreaming, I want to talk a little bit about how dreams can predict the future. And I think a lot of people are concerned that their dreams and their thoughts can create reality. Subconsciously, somewhere deep down, we sense it. I know people who have illnesses and they say, "Oh, I manifested this." Like, "I made this happen." Or, "I have an illness, and oh my God, I saw this coming." Or , you know, that kind of feeling.

Premonitory dreams. Yes, premonitory dreams. And that feels a little worrisome, too, because often when you have that warning, you keep replaying it and thinking about it while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict the future, especially when it comes to health? In one specific way, dreams can absolutely predict the future of your health. And we'll get into that. It's about Parkinson's. But generally, for cancer and other diseases, it's hard to tell if my patients got the diagnosis and then thought the other way around, "I think I dreamt about it." I'm not judging them.

I'm totally open-minded, but I just can't quite grasp the data on it. But if you dream about an illness, statistically, you're no more likely to get it. They've been looking at these surveys. So maybe it just reveals some anxiety you 're feeling. Again, it's symbolic. Maybe you're struggling with something and then have a dream based on an illness. So, as long as we remember that most of the time they're symbolic and not literal, I think it's important. Um, there are a lot of reports and surveys where breast cancer patients have said they dreamed they felt a lump and things like that .

I respect that. I respect their whole way. So I wanted to get that out of the way. The one specific way dreams can predict the future—I need to break it down a little bit because it blew my mind when I first learned about it . There's this thing called REM sleep behavior disorder, which I'm renaming as dream-acting behavior . Uh, yeah, my world, yeah. So much. My world, the words are...they're confusing, you know. Um, dream-acting behavior. Um, middle-aged men, around 50 , who act out their dreams, usually protecting their partner in bed.

Um, they come in for consultation, maybe the partner has some injury. Those men, 94% of the time, and that's essentially universal in medicine. Fifteen years later they'll develop Parkinson's . I think, you know. That's the only example, and if it's the only one for all neuroscientists and scientists, listen to me carefully: the first warning sign of brain deterioration with Parkinson's is a change in dreams 15 years prior. I'll leave it at that. For all the rigorous people who are like, "Hey, they're talking nonsense, I question whether science can actually prove this." Look up REM behavioral disorder, in all caps, REM behavioral disorder, which I call dream-enactment behavior.

It's in Scientific American. It's not just an article I'm digging up. It's that this...this is information that's coming out. REM behavioral disorder predicts Parkinson's 15 years later. And what I would say to researchers is: Is this an opportunity to start treatment earlier? I mean, this just says it all. But outside of that case, and you only need a unicorn for unicorns to be real, I haven't found any evidence that dreams predict the future. I mean, definitely not. They don't give lottery numbers or anything like that.

But on a more realistic level, they don't actually predict what's going to happen to you. Uh, but what happens to you might be due to what the dream symbolically mentions. You're going through a tough time and you lose your job, and you dream about losing your job. So I can see where those connections would form. I just don't have any. So I'll leave it as a maybe. How much do we dream about real-life events versus completely fantasy-based events? Like, how much of our dreams are replays?

Like you were saying that veterans, for example, dream about the war. Mhm. That's like a real event that happened in their life, a memory, yeah. Yeah, it's a memory, yeah. So, but when they dream about it while they're getting divorced, that's a symbolic dream. Yeah. It represents something. What would be the breakdown of dreams of memories versus fantasy? Uh, I think PTSD memories are clearly a replay of a bad experience in your dream world. The imaginative component of dreams, when you look at these surveys, it's a complete mix.

But what I will say is that I'm trying to add to your question, which is a good one, but how much of our dream life is repetition versus something invented by the web of imagination? I understand that. That's a good question. Um, what I would say is , in memories, it's repetition. Um, if your dream is falling, that's not repetition, but it indicates something. And then most of it is in between. It's highly visual, highly creative, jumping from social situations to visual situations, you know, you're on top of a building, you're in an uncomfortable situation, you're fighting with something.

There are these jumps, a bit like a movie, but it's not a hallucination. Um, this, this is the best thing, because I wanted to be able to answer this question about two years ago when I was thinking about this. And this is the gem I found. When you hallucinate, bear with me , it's a purple elephant in this room. The landscape is Reality. The element is embedded in it. When dreaming, everything is imagined. Mhm. So I would say the whole process of dreaming relies heavily on imagination.

That's the best answer I can give. Yes, no, that's a good answer. Yes, I find it interesting because I always wonder if we always dream in a place we've been or seen, even this... All of it. I think all of it. I mean , you have memory. Yes. Of places you've been. And then you can imagine, and dreams have access to both of those things. And if you'll allow me, dream memory... like when you get up to go to the bathroom and sometimes you can slip back into a dream.

So it's not random. Mhm. And I always wonder if our dreaming mind has access to memories that our waking mind can't access. Like people with... This is fascinating. It's a bit deeper into the scientific side. Like people with memory problems, who have suffered trauma and can't remember if they played Tetris or a video game, they'll see images in their dreams but They can't tell you if you ask them during the day. They'll say, "No, I never played Tetris, but I had one in my dream." And they're basically playing Tetris; Tetris is playing right in front of them.

So there's something going on where the dreaming mind has a memory system, I think. I do n't have proof of this, but there are little hints, like going back into a dream after getting up to go to the bathroom. People with amnesia being able to feed their dreams. I can't pinpoint it on a map or in a dissection, but there's something unique happening with memory and the dreaming mind. And that's why it's so inspiring to me. You know, I use drills, I remove pieces of skull, and I do dissections with them.

I'm not that kind of person, am I? Most people would think so. I think that's why it 's powerful. Like neurosurgeons talking about the dreaming mind. Yeah. But that's what it's done for me, man, after 51 years, 10,000 patients, and operating in some Ten countries . My children, you know, an intense romance, heartbreak, all of that, a deep emotional relationship with my partner for 30 years, all of that. And you start to think, I think I'm getting the hang of it . And then, in compiling this book, it's almost like a rebirth.

I mean, it's a strong statement, but it's like, "Oh, wait a second." There is a memory system of the dreaming mind. Wait a second. In Parkinson's, the first clue is a change in sleep patterns. So, just when I was thinking, "I think I'm getting this," you know. I'm thrilled that I've reset the perspective with which I approach the world. And that's what dreams have done for me. Mhm. Let's talk about lucid dreaming. We've been talking about it, we've been mentioning it all this time. First, let's define it; a lot of the questions I ask are very simplified.

And the reason is because I think a lot of these terms and ideas exist, but most people aren't even aware of them. And I think that While you simplify language from a scientific perspective, my goal is to try to simplify topics we all hear about. And maybe you'll overhear a conversation and think, "I don't even know what that means." I don't know if anyone knows what it means, but we all pretend to. So, it's like, "What is lucid dreaming?" " How common is it? And how do we achieve it?

So, let's go over those three phases. Lucid dreaming—this is how I would explain it to you. First, a little history about it. When I was putting this book together, I thought, ' Lucid dreaming, oh no, I don't want to cover this.' There can't be any science behind it. Two out of every nine chapters are about lucid dreams. Haha, yes. So, again, it's refreshing for me. And the most rigorous science about dreams deals with lucid dreams. We talked earlier about the waking brain and the dreaming brain.

Now we know that there is a beginning and an end to sleep. In the middle of sleep, in the middle of the night, some people realize, 'Hey, I'm actually dreaming.' And they become aware of the dream. Someone might say, 'Why is that unusual?'" " Well, most dreams are seen in retrospect. You wake up and say, 'Oh, wow, that was a dream.' Mhm. Because, well, I had a very vivid one last night. But I was just there, and only when I woke up did I think, 'Wait, okay, it was just a dream.'" But when the dream was happening, I was completely immersed in it.

The dream was happening in my mind, wasn't it ? And at the neuronal and electrochemical level. So, by entering and exiting sleep, lucid dreaming is the return of consciousness that allows people to know that they are actually dreaming while they dream. OK? Not in retrospect, as happened to me this morning. And well, that's an important statement. And what I would say is that there is evidence of it. Lucid dreaming can be tested through this experiment that they conducted and have been conducting. That's what's important about studies and experiments for their listeners.

If someone discovers something new and it's real, you'll see an explosion of data in the scientific literature about it . And in the 1970s, someone said, "Wait a second. You're a lucid dreamer. Are you telling me you can become conscious while you're in a dream? While the dream is happening?" So, they did a couple of things. They trained the person in rapid eye movement , which are like erratic eye movements when we sleep and dream. They said, "If you are in a lucid dream and consciousness has returned, can you communicate with me through your eyes as in Morse code?" And well, people should look into this.

Left right, left right. They trained these eye movement patterns. At the same time, they placed electrodes on the surface of the scalp because someone like me would say, "She just woke up, right? I need to know more than that." And they proved through electricity that the person was truly asleep. So, you can't pretend you're asleep. No. Through a pane of glass, this person, at a certain time in the middle of the night, pretending to be asleep, begins to communicate with their eyes. And it still shows that you're asleep.

Communicating with the outside world while you are asleep. That's powerful. That's lucid dreaming. Am I a lucid dreamer? No. Have I had one or two? Yeah . Did the people who worked on this book start to have them? Yes. Can it be induced? Yes. So, lucid dreaming is powerful because, again, it's a liminal state, right? It's a bit of awareness. It is a bit of waking consciousness that has emerged during sleep consciousness. And therefore, nothing is rigid. When you enter sleep, you don't go from being awake to sleeping in a second.

It's not a clear dividing line. So there are all these overlapping blurry states, and lucid dreaming is one of them. Two more points on this. When you put those patients, non- patients, participants in brain scans, that executive network I 've talked about, the logic and all that, gets attenuated. They show increased blood flow to that area. Not as much as when you're awake, but blood flow to the frontal cortex, which is responsible for reason, logic, and consciousness, is about halfway there. Oh. So, this, you know, exactly, right?

Yes. And so, if you've been a lucid dreamer and you tell people at work and they dismiss you as if you 're crazy, tell them no. There is the left-to-right eye movement test. There is the brain scan test. Galantamine, that drug that makes lucid dreamers have more...that makes people start having lucid dreams. There is a lot of scientific evidence for that. And lastly, can we learn to have lucid dreams? And the lucid dream I had was amazing. I was in the middle of the pandemic and I was teaching the kids how to sail.

We got this boat, I just had to...I had to get them out into the open air. You can't have three dogs and puppies at home in the middle of a pandemic. I thought this was a luxury I had. We are by the water here in California. It was as if he were turning the wheel forcefully. And yet, I was floating horizontally over a giant river that plunged into a waterfall, and I was just trying really hard to stay still. And I remember everything, like this is my right arm , and this was during the writing of this book.

And I thought to myself: this is interesting. It's very visual. I know I'm dreaming. I mean, those are unique experiences for me. Again, as a neurosurgeon, I wouldn't normally even explore these areas. But when I see the brain scan showing you're halfway between sleep and wakefulness, when I see drugs induce lucid dreams, I love bringing those two worlds together for people, you know? So, now I'm fascinated with lucid dreaming, and I think people, about a third of people do it, as 30 to 40% report it.

Sometimes more, sometimes less. Athletes tend to have them more, players tend to have them more. Creative people with good visuospatial skills tend to have more lucid dreams. And there are some techniques out there. I was going to ask you, if someone is a beginner and wants to try it after seeing this, they get the book and say, "Okay, I want to try it." What are the first three things I should do? The first thing they should do is look up the MILD lucid dreaming technique. There are many techniques that have been written about since ancient times.

People have cultivated their spirituality through that. It's a huge topic. Faith makes a lot of use of it. Yes. So, the MILD technique. It consists of waking up a little earlier than expected or necessary, and trying to hold on to consciousness and waking life while you fall back asleep. The technique is described in the book and you can look it up on the internet. But I want people to know why I mention that technique after four or five: it's because there's a study where they took a group of people and told them, "Okay, we're going to teach you left-right left-right Morse code." " Practice this technique." "Then we'll take them to the sleep lab." It's not my experiment.

It's not my research. We'll take them to the sleep lab. OK? Now, show us with your eye movements that you are really lucid dreaming. All of the above was a survey of the type: "Yes, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more." I believe people, but you know, I like that extra proof. So the MILD technique is proven with left-right Morse code, which clearly demonstrates that you are asleep based on your brain activity and that you are using eye patterns. So much so, and this is impressive, that they started doing a little math.

2 + 2 and they had a code. And someone said to me, I think I was in Paris, and I said, "Wait a second, you said the dreaming brain doesn't do math." I said, " Yes, but I also showed them the brain scans that show some regained consciousness, as well as the ability to do math." I love seeing how those pieces constantly fit together. That's brilliant. Rahul, from all the research you've done, you know, tons of research, reading and studying, I feel like one of the biggest lessons I take away from this is that often the questions we ask about our dreams are the wrong ones.

We ask things like, " What does this mean?" Is this, you know, is this real? So, you know, " What should I do about this?" What would you say are the best questions we can ask ourselves when we wake up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Guide us in the right direction because I feel that perhaps we are wasting time, energy, and effort . Yes, in a different direction. Well, I would say, I'll tell you what my approach is. I say, again, that's a huge topic you just, um, asked me about: one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your anxiety upon waking; arriving late, the alarm not going off, um, appearing naked on a podium because you're worried about public speaking.

So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares, and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, some dreams are just noise, you know. Let's not demand of the thoughts and emotions of dreams what we wouldn't demand of those of waking life. There are many things we do during the day that we don't even remember, right? Similarly, um, there are gender dreams, pregnancy dreams, important life events that are happening, important life events that occur and you are dreaming.

That's consistent . The ones I would tell people to focus on are those who are hyper, hyper emotional. Those who persist until the next day. Uh, you can try cultivating them with the morning technique we talked about, getting up more slowly, not checking email or Instagram too quickly. But hyper-emotional sleep is one worth reflecting on. Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures, and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, way back there . That's instinct; it makes you gasp for air when you're underwater.

The emotional brain developed on him, very similar to the one my dog ​​has, you know, they have intuition. Uh, they have instinct. Um, that's called the limbic system, and people can look it up, and there are circuits there like the Papez circuit, and uh, it's a fascinating part of the brain. And then, on top of that, there's the giant frontal cortex. The frontal cortex is integrated with all of them. They are all intertwined. There is no dopamine. There is a reward pathway that jumps from the reptilian to the emotional, but to achieve things, our advantage and what made our foreheads bloom forward was logic and reason, the executive and the CEO.

So I think the limbic system, those emotional systems, are dampened during the day for productivity, conventional productivity, not creativity. And what happens with your dreams is that the roles are reversed . And emotional systems can reach a maximum speed that your waking life cannot. So, if you have emotions, thoughts, and experiences from a hyper-emotional and hyper-liberated brain, that's the one you should reflect in your life. And I have given some specific examples. And the process of reflecting, what it means, is something individual for you. If you're having nightmares and you don't usually have them , and you think, "Wait, my day is fine." I'm having a lot of nightmares when I shouldn't.

Let that be a warning sign to reflect more on yourself. If you 're struggling with a relationship and having dreams of falling or hyper-emotional dreams of being chased, you know, that's your relationship symbolically making its way into your dreams. If you are at the end of your life and have many dreams about reconciliation , that is the process of dreaming that comes to your rescue. Dreams at the end of life serve a different purpose; I believe they bring comfort. And now evidence is emerging that even when our heart stops, the last thing the brain does is have one last massive sleep in the last minute or two, potentially experiencing the universal characteristic of near- death experiences.

So, you know that a hyper-emotional dream comes from a hyper-emotional state that is unique to your brain and that no one else has access to, and maybe it's your responsibility to analyze that feeling and those thoughts, pause for a minute, take in all the information that comes to you, take in everything you've been through , step back a little and say, "Hey, what was that solar flare in my mind?" And if you find it useful, great. If the process helps you remember them better, great. But what if you only have those 5 to 10 minutes during the morning when you remember that you weren't resting the night before?

That something wild and vibrant was happening and you managed to catch a glimpse of it. What it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it. Well said, Dr. Rahul Jandial. The book is titled "This Is Why You Dream." If you do n't already have your copy, make sure you get it. We delve into some of the topics, some of the issues . There is much more within this book that I think you will love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger, and dream more beautifully too, which is what I wish for each and every one of you.

Rahul, is there anything I haven't asked you that you'd like to share, something that's intuitively in your heart and mind that you believe is important for our community? I think there is too much judgment in the way people approach life. And some people think they already have everything figured out. And some people at the other end say, "I haven't figured anything out ." And I must tell your listeners that I've been across that entire range . And I would say a couple of things. I would say that I believe the brain and the dreaming mind are an innate genius that gives us resilience.

And regarding resilience, I want to leave people with a completely new definition , a psychological definition: that there is systemic resilience and processual resilience. Systemic resilience is what you contribute to the fight. And process resilience is what the struggle brings out in you. So, wherever you are, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think that for me, that gives me a source of strength, that this process exists, cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's not just one side.

In other words, that 's Rahul speaking emotionally, right? On the other hand, when you sit here and say that brain surgeons are trying to understand this about the brain, the mind, and all that, I'll leave you with something I didn't know about neuroscience. TRUE? I have a laboratory, I have a PhD in neuroscience, I am a brain surgeon. You start to think you're the expert, but there are things about exploring dreams and dreaming that surprised me, like: "How did I not know that?" Because it would have changed all the ways I had acted throughout my life.

He would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because not everything has to make sense, even to the super expert. So I leave people with something to look up online called paradoxical kinesics. paradoxical kinesia. It's called: You can't explain why you move that way. That's my, that's my colloquial translation for that medical term, but what happens is that those same patients who exhibit dream-acting behavior can act out their dreams, and later develop Parkinson's and their brains deteriorate. The strangest thing is that, when Parkinson's appears and their voices fade and their movements become rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are powerful and their movements are fluid.

Mjm. The dreaming mind, in some way, can access the body in a better, more fluid, and more harmonious way than the waking mind. And that, that's what I like people to take away from it . I'm really excited about this. I hope so too . Incredible. Rahul, we end each episode of On Purpose with five quick closing questions. Uh, these are questions that should be answered with a word or a phrase at most. And these are your five endings. So the first question is, what's the best advice about dreams you've ever heard or received?

Try to remember them more. Good. Second question, what is the worst advice about dreams you have ever heard or received? Dreams are meaningless. Question number three, a dream you wish you had more often. Falling in love for the first time. Uh, question number four, a dream you wish people had more often. Dreams of reconciliation. Dreams of forgiveness. Dreams of letting go. And are those things we can train ourselves to have? I do n't know, but those are the ones that some people report towards the end of their lives.

And I wonder if, if we had them more in the middle of our lives, we would have, you know, fewer regrets and be less, you know, overwhelmed by everyday problems. Why? Are there any studies that show why people get them later in life? No. Wow. That's right, yes, and I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. Yes. They're called gender dreams, end-of-life dreams, and again, our final act could be a massive dream and it tends to be positive. Not always in near-death experiences.

For me, I call that a dream coming to our rescue. Yes, can you imagine? You're so right , if only you could have had that sooner, like... All that conflict, all that fuss, you know? That's a great answer. You know, I just wish I could have let it go sooner. Yes. Fifth and final question, we ask it to every guest who has been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone had to follow, what would it be? Before speaking or acting, do your best to put yourself in that person's shoes.

Great response. Dr. Rahul Jandial, the book is titled "This Is Why You Dream" . Thank you so much for joining us today. If you haven't already, be sure to follow Dr. Rahul Jandial on Instagram and his other social media channels, and get a copy of the book. We'll put the link in the comments and in the description section. And I am very grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You have completely transformed the way I think about dreams. Honestly, thanks to your book and this interview, I do n't think I knew anything about dreams before we met.

He had very poor ideas and perhaps some limited beliefs. And talking to you today has opened up a whole new area of ​​growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea of ​​taking some simple, but clear tools with me to start implementing them from tonight and tomorrow. I am very excited about this dream journey and I hope that everyone who hears and sees this, when they read the book, will also embark on a dream journey with me. And I would love for Dr.

Rahul and me to be tagged in some of the experiments, in some of the tests that you conduct in your own life. Thank you so much. A pleasure. If this clip provided you with value and you'd like to see more, this next video has been specially chosen for you based on your viewing habits. I hope you enjoy it . And if so, please subscribe to the channel so we can continue to bring you fantastic conversations.

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