Dr. Ramani: How to Know if You Should Go No Contact With a Family Member

Not all families are good. Many families Not all families are good. Many families are harmful. Sometimes that person who are harmful. Sometimes that person who are harmful. Sometimes that person who goes no contact is the first person who goes no contact is the first person who goes no contact is the first person who says enough is enough. says enough is enough. says enough is enough. >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> No. >> No. >> No. Hell no. I have seen people heal Hell no. I have seen people heal Hell no. I have seen people heal brilliantly without forgiving. brilliantly without forgiving. brilliantly without forgiving. >> When do you know it's time to cut off a >> When do you know it's time to cut off a >> When do you know it's time to cut off a toxic family member? toxic family member? toxic family member? >> I don't know that there's a moment of >> I don't know that there's a moment of >> I don't know that there's a moment of knowing, but every single person will knowing, but every single person will knowing, but every single person will say grief, grief, grief, grief, grief, say grief, grief, grief, grief, grief, say grief, grief, grief, grief, grief, regret, shame, guilt, regret, shame, guilt, regret, shame, guilt, and then peace. >> Hey everyone, welcome back to On >> Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become Purpose, the place you come to become Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. happier, healthier, and more healed. happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorite, Today's guest is one of your favorite, Today's guest is one of your favorite, someone that you always want back, someone that you always want back, someone that you always want back, someone that always gets a millions and someone that always gets a millions and someone that always gets a millions and millions of downloads and views whenever millions of downloads and views whenever millions of downloads and views whenever she's on the show. It's my friend and she's on the show. It's my friend and she's on the show. It's my friend and incredible thought leader, Dr. Ramani incredible thought leader, Dr. Ramani incredible thought leader, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a clinical psychologist and Durvasula, a clinical psychologist and Durvasula, a clinical psychologist and one of the most trusted voices in the one of the most trusted voices in the one of the most trusted voices in the world on narcissistic relationships, world on narcissistic relationships, world on narcissistic relationships, whose work has reached millions of whose work has reached millions of whose work has reached millions of people searching for clarity and people searching for clarity and people searching for clarity and validation. Right now, more people than validation. Right now, more people than validation. Right now, more people than ever are asking a painful question. ever are asking a painful question. ever are asking a painful question. Should I go no contact with my family? Should I go no contact with my family? Should I go no contact with my family? Nearly one in four adults report being Nearly one in four adults report being Nearly one in four adults report being estranged from a family member. What estranged from a family member. What estranged from a family member. What used to be unthinkable is now a global used to be unthinkable is now a global used to be unthinkable is now a global conversation, and often a deeply lonely conversation, and often a deeply lonely conversation, and often a deeply lonely one. But how do you know when distance one. But how do you know when distance one. But how do you know when distance is healthy and when it's something you is healthy and when it's something you is healthy and when it's something you regret? If you've ever felt guilt, regret? If you've ever felt guilt, regret? If you've ever felt guilt, grief, or confusion about stepping back grief, or confusion about stepping back grief, or confusion about stepping back from someone you love, this conversation from someone you love, this conversation from someone you love, this conversation will change how you think about it. will change how you think about it. will change how you think about it. Please welcome to On Purpose, Dr. Please welcome to On Purpose, Dr. Please welcome to On Purpose, Dr. Ramani. Ramani. Ramani. >> Thank you, Jay. >> Thank you, Jay. >> Thank you, Jay. >> It's always wonderful to have you back. >> It's always wonderful to have you back. >> It's always wonderful to have you back. >> It's lovely to see you. So good to see >> It's lovely to see you. So good to see >> It's lovely to see you. So good to see >> much from you. You make everything >> much from you. You make everything >> much from you. You make everything clear. clear. clear. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I leave these conversations feeling I >> I leave these conversations feeling I >> I leave these conversations feeling I have so much to share with people. You have so much to share with people. You have so much to share with people. You joined me on tour last year, which I was joined me on tour last year, which I was joined me on tour last year, which I was so grateful for. so grateful for. so grateful for. >> But really this conversation has truly >> But really this conversation has truly >> But really this conversation has truly taken over taken over taken over culture in such an interesting way. culture in such an interesting way. culture in such an interesting way. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> has. >> has. >> has. >> And I wanted to just start off as I >> And I wanted to just start off as I >> And I wanted to just start off as I always do with you because I think you always do with you because I think you always do with you because I think you do this so brilliantly. Can you please do this so brilliantly. Can you please do this so brilliantly. Can you please define what no contact means? define what no contact means? define what no contact means? >> It's just what it sounds like. It's no >> It's just what it sounds like. It's no >> It's just what it sounds like. It's no more contact. It's no more digital more contact. It's no more digital more contact. It's no more digital contact. It's no more in-person contact. contact. It's no more in-person contact. contact. It's no more in-person contact. You're not taking that person's calls. You're not taking that person's calls. You're not taking that person's calls. You're not showing up to where they are. You're not showing up to where they are. You're not showing up to where they are. It's almost like the death of a It's almost like the death of a It's almost like the death of a relationship even while the people are relationship even while the people are relationship even while the people are living. living. living. >> That's an interesting way of thinking >> That's an interesting way of thinking >> That's an interesting way of thinking about it. Because I think no contact about it. Because I think no contact about it. Because I think no contact it feels like okay, I'm not going to it feels like okay, I'm not going to it feels like okay, I'm not going to call them. I'm not going to talk. But call them. I'm not going to talk. But call them. I'm not going to talk. But when you think about what you just said, when you think about what you just said, when you think about what you just said, that that carries so much that that carries so much that that carries so much [clears throat] more weight that [clears throat] more weight that [clears throat] more weight that definition. I read in the national definition. I read in the national definition. I read in the national survey from Cornell University's family survey from Cornell University's family survey from Cornell University's family estrangement and reconciliation project, estrangement and reconciliation project, estrangement and reconciliation project, they found that 27% of US adults they found that 27% of US adults they found that 27% of US adults reported being estranged from one or reported being estranged from one or reported being estranged from one or more family members. more family members. more family members. 27%. That's huge. So cutting off family 27%. That's huge. So cutting off family 27%. That's huge. So cutting off family used to be unthinkable. Now it feels used to be unthinkable. Now it feels used to be unthinkable. Now it feels like it's everywhere. What what changed? like it's everywhere. What what changed? like it's everywhere. What what changed? Like we're talking about a third of Like we're talking about a third of Like we're talking about a third of Americans. Americans. Americans. >> I think what's challenging is is that >> I think what's challenging is is that >> I think what's challenging is is that this concept of no contact is really this concept of no contact is really this concept of no contact is really it's heterogeneous. It's not just one it's heterogeneous. It's not just one it's heterogeneous. It's not just one thing, right? And because it's not one thing, right? And because it's not one thing, right? And because it's not one thing, that 27% number thing, that 27% number thing, that 27% number it's it's made up of a really kind of it's it's made up of a really kind of it's it's made up of a really kind of mixed-up pot of people. First of all, I mixed-up pot of people. First of all, I mixed-up pot of people. First of all, I would say that you're absolutely right, would say that you're absolutely right, would say that you're absolutely right, Jake. There was a time this would never Jake. There was a time this would never Jake. There was a time this would never happen and I think there are still a lot happen and I think there are still a lot happen and I think there are still a lot of cultures and parts of the world where of cultures and parts of the world where of cultures and parts of the world where it's still unthinkable. You cannot do it's still unthinkable. You cannot do it's still unthinkable. You cannot do this. Listen, more people are talking this. Listen, more people are talking this. Listen, more people are talking about things that were once sort of about things that were once sort of about things that were once sort of deemed shameful. The sort of cultural deemed shameful. The sort of cultural deemed shameful. The sort of cultural and societal control of you can't do and societal control of you can't do and societal control of you can't do this and people are saying, yes, I can. this and people are saying, yes, I can. this and people are saying, yes, I can. I think there's more information. I I think there's more information. I I think there's more information. I think there's more content, think there's more content, think there's more content, conversations like this. That said, conversations like this. That said, conversations like this. That said, I really have to say that this remains a I really have to say that this remains a I really have to say that this remains a huge shaming issue out there. That when huge shaming issue out there. That when huge shaming issue out there. That when we hear someone is estranged from a we hear someone is estranged from a we hear someone is estranged from a family member, most people's mind will family member, most people's mind will family member, most people's mind will go to what's wrong with you. What's go to what's wrong with you. What's go to what's wrong with you. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with your wrong with you? What's wrong with your wrong with you? What's wrong with your family? It's immediately a very family? It's immediately a very family? It's immediately a very pathologized kind of a take on it. But pathologized kind of a take on it. But pathologized kind of a take on it. But the problem is that no contact happens the problem is that no contact happens the problem is that no contact happens for such different reasons. In some for such different reasons. In some for such different reasons. In some cases, no contact is happening literally cases, no contact is happening literally cases, no contact is happening literally because a person says, "There's no because a person says, "There's no because a person says, "There's no safety here. I'm abandoning fully safety here. I'm abandoning fully safety here. I'm abandoning fully abandoning myself to remain in abandoning myself to remain in abandoning myself to remain in relationship with this person or even relationship with this person or even relationship with this person or even feeling like there's potential harm." feeling like there's potential harm." feeling like there's potential harm." Even if it's not literal harm. It's not Even if it's not literal harm. It's not Even if it's not literal harm. It's not that somebody's going to come and hit that somebody's going to come and hit that somebody's going to come and hit you, but this psychological sense of you, but this psychological sense of you, but this psychological sense of vigilance or that here we go again. And vigilance or that here we go again. And vigilance or that here we go again. And for classical example I'll give you, for classical example I'll give you, for classical example I'll give you, somebody was abused as a child, somebody was abused as a child, somebody was abused as a child, physically, sexually abused. And the physically, sexually abused. And the physically, sexually abused. And the family system minimizes it, perhaps even family system minimizes it, perhaps even family system minimizes it, perhaps even denies it. Which means as a child that denies it. Which means as a child that denies it. Which means as a child that person wasn't protected. And now as an person wasn't protected. And now as an person wasn't protected. And now as an adult, their attitude is, "You're still adult, their attitude is, "You're still adult, their attitude is, "You're still trying to wipe out a part of my history trying to wipe out a part of my history trying to wipe out a part of my history that I'm trying to integrate so I can that I'm trying to integrate so I can that I'm trying to integrate so I can heal." So that's the point at which some heal." So that's the point at which some heal." So that's the point at which some people people people A dear friend of mine, Kimberly Shannon A dear friend of mine, Kimberly Shannon A dear friend of mine, Kimberly Shannon Murphy's been very outspoken about this Murphy's been very outspoken about this Murphy's been very outspoken about this about her own story of of family abuse. about her own story of of family abuse. about her own story of of family abuse. And she said, "No more. I I realized I And she said, "No more. I I realized I And she said, "No more. I I realized I hit that wall where in order for me to hit that wall where in order for me to hit that wall where in order for me to heal the rest of the way, I had to end heal the rest of the way, I had to end heal the rest of the way, I had to end contact with people whose presence was contact with people whose presence was contact with people whose presence was harming me." That's one piece. Now Jay, harming me." That's one piece. Now Jay, harming me." That's one piece. Now Jay, there's a group of people that go no there's a group of people that go no there's a group of people that go no contact because it's punitive. I'll show contact because it's punitive. I'll show contact because it's punitive. I'll show you. you. you. You're never going to hear from me from You're never going to hear from me from You're never going to hear from me from me again. So let's say I don't know, me again. So let's say I don't know, me again. So let's say I don't know, we're siblings, right? And you won't, I we're siblings, right? And you won't, I we're siblings, right? And you won't, I don't know, loan me money or do don't know, loan me money or do don't know, loan me money or do something I want you to do. I'd say, something I want you to do. I'd say, something I want you to do. I'd say, "Jay, you're dead to me, right?" Because "Jay, you're dead to me, right?" Because "Jay, you're dead to me, right?" Because I'm going to punish you cuz you wouldn't I'm going to punish you cuz you wouldn't I'm going to punish you cuz you wouldn't do the thing I want. do the thing I want. do the thing I want. >> That's different. >> That's different. >> That's different. >> That's different, but that's going to be >> That's different, but that's going to be >> That's different, but that's going to be represented in those numbers. represented in those numbers. represented in those numbers. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> what I'm saying? So there's this >> what I'm saying? So there's this >> what I'm saying? So there's this heterogeneity and I can say as a heterogeneity and I can say as a heterogeneity and I can say as a psychologist who's worked with many psychologist who's worked with many psychologist who's worked with many clients who not only either have gone no clients who not only either have gone no clients who not only either have gone no contact, but I work with them as they contact, but I work with them as they contact, but I work with them as they grappled with this issue. Nobody makes grappled with this issue. Nobody makes grappled with this issue. Nobody makes this decision lightly. Those punishment this decision lightly. Those punishment this decision lightly. Those punishment people do. They're like, "Forget it. You people do. They're like, "Forget it. You people do. They're like, "Forget it. You won't do what I want. No contact, won't do what I want. No contact, won't do what I want. No contact, right?" But for the people who are doing right?" But for the people who are doing right?" But for the people who are doing it for reasons of safety, protection, it for reasons of safety, protection, it for reasons of safety, protection, healing, so that they no longer have to healing, so that they no longer have to healing, so that they no longer have to abandon themselves. They will work this abandon themselves. They will work this abandon themselves. They will work this through for years and years and years through for years and years and years through for years and years and years feeling guilty, feeling disloyal, feeling guilty, feeling disloyal, feeling guilty, feeling disloyal, feeling like bad people, wondering feeling like bad people, wondering feeling like bad people, wondering what's wrong with them. And that will what's wrong with them. And that will what's wrong with them. And that will churn and churn. Often times there's a churn and churn. Often times there's a churn and churn. Often times there's a moment. I'm I'm not going to bring too moment. I'm I'm not going to bring too moment. I'm I'm not going to bring too many details with it cuz I'm trying to many details with it cuz I'm trying to many details with it cuz I'm trying to protect some of the people involved, but protect some of the people involved, but protect some of the people involved, but I I'm recently actually now actively I I'm recently actually now actively I I'm recently actually now actively kind of going through a no contact kind of going through a no contact kind of going through a no contact family situation. family situation. family situation. And it is something that had played out And it is something that had played out And it is something that had played out for such a long time in a family system, for such a long time in a family system, for such a long time in a family system, right? And it's like the child part of right? And it's like the child part of right? And it's like the child part of me is like something's not right. And me is like something's not right. And me is like something's not right. And then the adult part of me is like, nah, then the adult part of me is like, nah, then the adult part of me is like, nah, I could turn away. Wasn't a person I had I could turn away. Wasn't a person I had I could turn away. Wasn't a person I had contact with. Then I was having more and contact with. Then I was having more and contact with. Then I was having more and like, wait a minute. I know more about like, wait a minute. I know more about like, wait a minute. I know more about this. It doesn't feel cool. Then the this. It doesn't feel cool. Then the this. It doesn't feel cool. Then the terrible thing happened. I was like, no. terrible thing happened. I was like, no. terrible thing happened. I was like, no. This would be a cancellation of myself This would be a cancellation of myself This would be a cancellation of myself in the name of culturally trying to in the name of culturally trying to in the name of culturally trying to maintain a relationship, right? So that maintain a relationship, right? So that maintain a relationship, right? So that evolution Well, I'm telling you for me, evolution Well, I'm telling you for me, evolution Well, I'm telling you for me, that was a 40-year process. This is does that was a 40-year process. This is does that was a 40-year process. This is does not decision that's made lightly. And I not decision that's made lightly. And I not decision that's made lightly. And I think what we're doing, the injustice think what we're doing, the injustice think what we're doing, the injustice we're doing here, is assuming that we're doing here, is assuming that we're doing here, is assuming that someone who's gone no contact has made someone who's gone no contact has made someone who's gone no contact has made this decision capriciously or this decision capriciously or this decision capriciously or frivolously. frivolously. frivolously. >> A lot of the people you speak to, are >> A lot of the people you speak to, are >> A lot of the people you speak to, are they going no contact as first immediate they going no contact as first immediate they going no contact as first immediate action, or is it a last resort? action, or is it a last resort? action, or is it a last resort? >> They're like, I've tried everything. I >> They're like, I've tried everything. I >> They're like, I've tried everything. I should one more Do you understand? And should one more Do you understand? And should one more Do you understand? And then there's more of the denial, more of then there's more of the denial, more of then there's more of the denial, more of the gaslighting, more of the the gaslighting, more of the the gaslighting, more of the manipulation, more of the what manipulation, more of the what manipulation, more of the what disrespect, call it what you will. disrespect, call it what you will. disrespect, call it what you will. But there's this moment. And it's not But there's this moment. And it's not But there's this moment. And it's not just in the no contact, but I think no just in the no contact, but I think no just in the no contact, but I think no contact's a manifestation. contact's a manifestation. contact's a manifestation. When you become acutely, When you become acutely, When you become acutely, actively, and consciously aware actively, and consciously aware actively, and consciously aware that you are actually slicing off that you are actually slicing off that you are actually slicing off massive parts of your authentic self massive parts of your authentic self massive parts of your authentic self to maintain a relationship, and on top to maintain a relationship, and on top to maintain a relationship, and on top of that, of that, of that, have become hyper-vigilant, watching have become hyper-vigilant, watching have become hyper-vigilant, watching every like In essence, it is just a full every like In essence, it is just a full every like In essence, it is just a full self-abandonment. You become aware of self-abandonment. You become aware of self-abandonment. You become aware of that. that. that. You're now choosing between You're now choosing between You're now choosing between self-loathing or self-protection. self-loathing or self-protection. self-loathing or self-protection. And the problem is, you know, in the And the problem is, you know, in the And the problem is, you know, in the words of the great Gabor Maté, is like words of the great Gabor Maté, is like words of the great Gabor Maté, is like there's no pain-free path, folks. There there's no pain-free path, folks. There there's no pain-free path, folks. There isn't one. Because if you choose this isn't one. Because if you choose this isn't one. Because if you choose this point this path of I'm not going to have point this path of I'm not going to have point this path of I'm not going to have anything to do with this person anymore. anything to do with this person anymore. anything to do with this person anymore. It doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel It doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel It doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel healthy. healthy. healthy. Family members, people from the world at Family members, people from the world at Family members, people from the world at large, people in your community are large, people in your community are large, people in your community are going to say, "Oh, come now. There must going to say, "Oh, come now. There must going to say, "Oh, come now. There must be a way to do There are your family. be a way to do There are your family. be a way to do There are your family. You only have one family. You only have You only have one family. You only have You only have one family. You only have one whatever." Fill in the blank. one whatever." Fill in the blank. one whatever." Fill in the blank. Parent, aunt, uncle, cousin, whatever it Parent, aunt, uncle, cousin, whatever it Parent, aunt, uncle, cousin, whatever it is, right? is, right? is, right? That's the pushback, sister. That's the That's the pushback, sister. That's the That's the pushback, sister. That's the pushback that comes. So, you could pushback that comes. So, you could pushback that comes. So, you could imagine the amount of resistance people imagine the amount of resistance people imagine the amount of resistance people who are engaging in no contact who are engaging in no contact who are engaging in no contact protectively are going through for them protectively are going through for them protectively are going through for them to still make that decision, cut out a to still make that decision, cut out a to still make that decision, cut out a sense of belonging, which is a primary sense of belonging, which is a primary sense of belonging, which is a primary human need. human need. human need. It's not that punitive, "You're not It's not that punitive, "You're not It's not that punitive, "You're not doing what I want. I'm going to cut you doing what I want. I'm going to cut you doing what I want. I'm going to cut you off." That again, that's much more off." That again, that's much more off." That again, that's much more punitive, petulant, tantrumy. This is punitive, petulant, tantrumy. This is punitive, petulant, tantrumy. This is entirely different experience. They're entirely different experience. They're entirely different experience. They're not the same. not the same. not the same. >> It's so hard because as you were >> It's so hard because as you were >> It's so hard because as you were mentioning there that no path feels mentioning there that no path feels mentioning there that no path feels great and it's hard either way because great and it's hard either way because great and it's hard either way because you either stay connected to this person you either stay connected to this person you either stay connected to this person who causes you pain, causes you hurt, who causes you pain, causes you hurt, who causes you pain, causes you hurt, causes you stress, and then you're causes you stress, and then you're causes you stress, and then you're dealing with all of that. Or you dealing with all of that. Or you dealing with all of that. Or you disconnect from them and go no contact, disconnect from them and go no contact, disconnect from them and go no contact, but then you feel guilt and then you but then you feel guilt and then you but then you feel guilt and then you feel shame from the outside world and feel shame from the outside world and feel shame from the outside world and you feel bad. Like, I mean, this is not you feel bad. Like, I mean, this is not you feel bad. Like, I mean, this is not even no contact. I have a friend who's even no contact. I have a friend who's even no contact. I have a friend who's moving country and they were telling moving country and they were telling moving country and they were telling their friends and the first thing their their friends and the first thing their their friends and the first thing their friends said to them is, "What about friends said to them is, "What about friends said to them is, "What about your parents?" your parents?" your parents?" >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they're not even no contact. They >> And they're not even no contact. They >> And they're not even no contact. They love their parents. They're going to see love their parents. They're going to see love their parents. They're going to see their parents. They They enjoy spending their parents. They They enjoy spending their parents. They They enjoy spending time with their parents. They're just time with their parents. They're just time with their parents. They're just moving country for work. moving country for work. moving country for work. And even me, I live away from my parents And even me, I live away from my parents And even me, I live away from my parents for work and for the life I'm building. for work and for the life I'm building. for work and for the life I'm building. And people are always like, "Yeah, what And people are always like, "Yeah, what And people are always like, "Yeah, what about them?" So, I'm like, "I can't about them?" So, I'm like, "I can't about them?" So, I'm like, "I can't imagine if someone actually said imagine if someone actually said imagine if someone actually said Actually, I'm not talking to my parents Actually, I'm not talking to my parents Actually, I'm not talking to my parents anymore." How much shame and guilt that anymore." How much shame and guilt that anymore." How much shame and guilt that comes with. I guess what we're saying is comes with. I guess what we're saying is comes with. I guess what we're saying is when someone goes no contact for the when someone goes no contact for the when someone goes no contact for the right reasons, you've got to recognize right reasons, you've got to recognize right reasons, you've got to recognize just how deep that must have been for just how deep that must have been for just how deep that must have been for them. them. them. >> It's very deep and I think that the >> It's very deep and I think that the >> It's very deep and I think that the challenge has become Jay, especially at challenge has become Jay, especially at challenge has become Jay, especially at the end of 2025, I maybe someone had put the end of 2025, I maybe someone had put the end of 2025, I maybe someone had put a book out, I don't even know what, but a book out, I don't even know what, but a book out, I don't even know what, but there was a lot of conversation in the there was a lot of conversation in the there was a lot of conversation in the public sphere about no contact, but a public sphere about no contact, but a public sphere about no contact, but a lot of it was about this is terrible, lot of it was about this is terrible, lot of it was about this is terrible, all estrangement can be worked through. all estrangement can be worked through. all estrangement can be worked through. Because what this becomes a conversation Because what this becomes a conversation Because what this becomes a conversation about Jay is becomes a conversation about Jay is becomes a conversation about Jay is becomes a conversation about a bigger issue called repair, about a bigger issue called repair, about a bigger issue called repair, right? The repair of a rupture in a right? The repair of a rupture in a right? The repair of a rupture in a relationship. relationship. relationship. And it's not always easy to repair a And it's not always easy to repair a And it's not always easy to repair a rupture, but it's the only way forward. rupture, but it's the only way forward. rupture, but it's the only way forward. If ruptures cannot be repaired, the If ruptures cannot be repaired, the If ruptures cannot be repaired, the relationship slowly dies. That's what relationship slowly dies. That's what relationship slowly dies. That's what happens. It becomes untenably unsafe, happens. It becomes untenably unsafe, happens. It becomes untenably unsafe, right? So, the person who ultimately right? So, the person who ultimately right? So, the person who ultimately goes no contact in these unsafe goes no contact in these unsafe goes no contact in these unsafe situations has likely tried to repair situations has likely tried to repair situations has likely tried to repair several times. They'll even say, "Can several times. They'll even say, "Can several times. They'll even say, "Can you see what you did to hurt me? Can you you see what you did to hurt me? Can you you see what you did to hurt me? Can you see?" They're literally putting on a see?" They're literally putting on a see?" They're literally putting on a PowerPoint. I'm giving you the road map PowerPoint. I'm giving you the road map PowerPoint. I'm giving you the road map here for this apology. here for this apology. here for this apology. And the other person either doesn't get And the other person either doesn't get And the other person either doesn't get it, gives an anemic apology, it, gives an anemic apology, it, gives an anemic apology, or will give the weak apology and turn or will give the weak apology and turn or will give the weak apology and turn around and do the thing again. around and do the thing again. around and do the thing again. Right? It's the doing the thing again Right? It's the doing the thing again Right? It's the doing the thing again that is so horrifying. Cuz if someone that is so horrifying. Cuz if someone that is so horrifying. Cuz if someone says sorry and then does it again, says sorry and then does it again, says sorry and then does it again, that's not safe. They've you've just that's not safe. They've you've just that's not safe. They've you've just shown me you can do a thing that's shown me you can do a thing that's shown me you can do a thing that's harmful or unsafe. harmful or unsafe. harmful or unsafe. And no matter what, you're going to And no matter what, you're going to And no matter what, you're going to likely do it again. likely do it again. likely do it again. So, that that becomes the core of what So, that that becomes the core of what So, that that becomes the core of what this is, or the denial of another human this is, or the denial of another human this is, or the denial of another human being's experience. Families might feel being's experience. Families might feel being's experience. Families might feel uncomfortable because something uncomfortable because something uncomfortable because something uncomfortable happened. For example, uncomfortable happened. For example, uncomfortable happened. For example, abuse in the system. abuse in the system. abuse in the system. And nobody wants to sit around and talk And nobody wants to sit around and talk And nobody wants to sit around and talk about that. But usually the survivor of about that. But usually the survivor of about that. But usually the survivor of these experiences simply wants to hear, these experiences simply wants to hear, these experiences simply wants to hear, "That happened. We're so sorry." And "That happened. We're so sorry." And "That happened. We're so sorry." And maybe even acknowledge and we didn't maybe even acknowledge and we didn't maybe even acknowledge and we didn't protect you sufficiently, right? That's protect you sufficiently, right? That's protect you sufficiently, right? That's often times all a person They we can't often times all a person They we can't often times all a person They we can't We know we can't turn back time. We We know we can't turn back time. We We know we can't turn back time. We can't go back and fix it. But, the can't go back and fix it. But, the can't go back and fix it. But, the acknowledgement of our pain, bearing acknowledgement of our pain, bearing acknowledgement of our pain, bearing witness to someone's pain, that is what witness to someone's pain, that is what witness to someone's pain, that is what people want. And there's a chance of people want. And there's a chance of people want. And there's a chance of moving forward. But, what I really, moving forward. But, what I really, moving forward. But, what I really, really am struggling with is the really am struggling with is the really am struggling with is the rhetoric, which is that we put the light rhetoric, which is that we put the light rhetoric, which is that we put the light of shame and blame on the person who's of shame and blame on the person who's of shame and blame on the person who's making the decision to say, "This is not making the decision to say, "This is not making the decision to say, "This is not safe. This is not healthy. This is safe. This is not healthy. This is safe. This is not healthy. This is taking a toll on me. I'm stepping back." taking a toll on me. I'm stepping back." taking a toll on me. I'm stepping back." Instead Instead Instead of focusing on the person or people of focusing on the person or people of focusing on the person or people whose behavior whose behavior whose behavior was the catalyst was the catalyst was the catalyst >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> for this choice. Once again, we're >> for this choice. Once again, we're >> for this choice. Once again, we're putting the focus on the person who is putting the focus on the person who is putting the focus on the person who is harmed as being the problem. harmed as being the problem. harmed as being the problem. >> What are the most common >> What are the most common >> What are the most common reasons you see people that you work reasons you see people that you work reasons you see people that you work with and that you've come across through with and that you've come across through with and that you've come across through research that go no contact? research that go no contact? research that go no contact? >> I think the most common ones are, like I >> I think the most common ones are, like I >> I think the most common ones are, like I said, denial of childhood experiences of said, denial of childhood experiences of said, denial of childhood experiences of abuse. And with that denial, that can abuse. And with that denial, that can abuse. And with that denial, that can lead to a second reason, which is now lead to a second reason, which is now lead to a second reason, which is now people are sometimes saying, "I'm people are sometimes saying, "I'm people are sometimes saying, "I'm actually concerned for my kids. They actually concerned for my kids. They actually concerned for my kids. They Nobody's even willing to step up and Nobody's even willing to step up and Nobody's even willing to step up and acknowledge this happened, and they're acknowledge this happened, and they're acknowledge this happened, and they're expecting my children to be in the expecting my children to be in the expecting my children to be in the presence of an unsafe person." So, those presence of an unsafe person." So, those presence of an unsafe person." So, those can often be a catalyst. Another piece can often be a catalyst. Another piece can often be a catalyst. Another piece is repeated attempts at repair. You is repeated attempts at repair. You is repeated attempts at repair. You know, you keep trying to say, "Please know, you keep trying to say, "Please know, you keep trying to say, "Please don't do it again." They do it again. don't do it again." They do it again. don't do it again." They do it again. "Please don't say that again." They say "Please don't say that again." They say "Please don't say that again." They say it again. They'll even say, "I'm sorry." it again. They'll even say, "I'm sorry." it again. They'll even say, "I'm sorry." And then they'll do it again. So, And then they'll do it again. So, And then they'll do it again. So, there's no way to get it fixed. there's no way to get it fixed. there's no way to get it fixed. Sometimes it's what I call sort of the Sometimes it's what I call sort of the Sometimes it's what I call sort of the scorched earth piece. The thing that's scorched earth piece. The thing that's scorched earth piece. The thing that's done cannot be undone. Now, it could be done cannot be undone. Now, it could be done cannot be undone. Now, it could be something as like they're intoxicated something as like they're intoxicated something as like they're intoxicated and they put your kids in the car with and they put your kids in the car with and they put your kids in the car with them and they drive. They leave the kids them and they drive. They leave the kids them and they drive. They leave the kids unsupervised in a dangerous situation. unsupervised in a dangerous situation. unsupervised in a dangerous situation. It's usually a case of irresponsibility It's usually a case of irresponsibility It's usually a case of irresponsibility or something that it ended up putting or something that it ended up putting or something that it ended up putting people at risk or harm, or actually people at risk or harm, or actually people at risk or harm, or actually something terrible happens. That can be something terrible happens. That can be something terrible happens. That can be a catalyst for no contact. Maybe it's a catalyst for no contact. Maybe it's a catalyst for no contact. Maybe it's not the kind of physical sexual abuse, not the kind of physical sexual abuse, not the kind of physical sexual abuse, but it's even like a lifetime criticism, but it's even like a lifetime criticism, but it's even like a lifetime criticism, devaluing, you know, the devaluing, you know, the devaluing, you know, the year over year, it's going to be the year over year, it's going to be the year over year, it's going to be the same comments about your weight, about same comments about your weight, about same comments about your weight, about your career. It's just it's a your career. It's just it's a your career. It's just it's a never-ending never-ending never-ending negating, abusive, harmful cycle. That negating, abusive, harmful cycle. That negating, abusive, harmful cycle. That can be a case. Now we're living in can be a case. Now we're living in can be a case. Now we're living in interesting times where there's a interesting times where there's a interesting times where there's a tremendous amount of political tremendous amount of political tremendous amount of political polarization. polarization. polarization. And there are people who are saying And there are people who are saying And there are people who are saying what you voted for has hurt the people I what you voted for has hurt the people I what you voted for has hurt the people I love most dearly in life. That's love most dearly in life. That's love most dearly in life. That's actually leading to some no contact as actually leading to some no contact as actually leading to some no contact as well. well. well. And it can be sometimes multiple of And it can be sometimes multiple of And it can be sometimes multiple of those in some cases can be very, very those in some cases can be very, very those in some cases can be very, very unique to the situation. I always say unique to the situation. I always say unique to the situation. I always say it's like a slice in the fabric of trust it's like a slice in the fabric of trust it's like a slice in the fabric of trust that slices the fabric of safety. You that slices the fabric of safety. You that slices the fabric of safety. You know, both of those things are happening know, both of those things are happening know, both of those things are happening and we don't always think of it as and we don't always think of it as and we don't always think of it as feeling unsafe cuz we're often not in feeling unsafe cuz we're often not in feeling unsafe cuz we're often not in acute danger, but when people go through acute danger, but when people go through acute danger, but when people go through this they'll say this they'll say this they'll say I feel sick when I have to see this I feel sick when I have to see this I feel sick when I have to see this person. I feel sick after I talk to this person. I feel sick after I talk to this person. I feel sick after I talk to this person. I feel anxious. I mean, person. I feel anxious. I mean, person. I feel anxious. I mean, literally sick. People say I get rashes. literally sick. People say I get rashes. literally sick. People say I get rashes. Their autoimmune symptomatology may Their autoimmune symptomatology may Their autoimmune symptomatology may flare up. They get gastrointestinal flare up. They get gastrointestinal flare up. They get gastrointestinal issues, terrible headaches. Like my body issues, terrible headaches. Like my body issues, terrible headaches. Like my body falls apart at this contact. So there's falls apart at this contact. So there's falls apart at this contact. So there's sometimes even that awareness. And then sometimes even that awareness. And then sometimes even that awareness. And then I was interesting I just was talking to I was interesting I just was talking to I was interesting I just was talking to a woman on our own network and she was a woman on our own network and she was a woman on our own network and she was talking about going no contact with her talking about going no contact with her talking about going no contact with her own mother. What happened was she felt a own mother. What happened was she felt a own mother. What happened was she felt a relief like she'd never felt in her relief like she'd never felt in her relief like she'd never felt in her life. She said, "I don't have to go life. She said, "I don't have to go life. She said, "I don't have to go through this again." You know, that and through this again." You know, that and through this again." You know, that and she and she said was not easy. It was a she and she said was not easy. It was a she and she said was not easy. It was a nightmare to make the choice and then a nightmare to make the choice and then a nightmare to make the choice and then a lifting of this horrible weight. So not lifting of this horrible weight. So not lifting of this horrible weight. So not everyone feels relief. A lot of people everyone feels relief. A lot of people everyone feels relief. A lot of people say feel the guilt and the shame, but say feel the guilt and the shame, but say feel the guilt and the shame, but those are the kinds of catalysts to why those are the kinds of catalysts to why those are the kinds of catalysts to why people make this choice and it's usually people make this choice and it's usually people make this choice and it's usually not one thing. It's many, many, many, not one thing. It's many, many, many, not one thing. It's many, many, many, many, many things that can culminate in many, many things that can culminate in many, many things that can culminate in that one big bad thing. So you can point that one big bad thing. So you can point that one big bad thing. So you can point to an event, but I promise you everyone to an event, but I promise you everyone to an event, but I promise you everyone who says I went no contact after X who says I went no contact after X who says I went no contact after X happened might tell me everything that happened might tell me everything that happened might tell me everything that happened before X. It was never just happened before X. It was never just happened before X. It was never just about X. That was the proverbial straw. about X. That was the proverbial straw. about X. That was the proverbial straw. >> According to psychology, how do we know >> According to psychology, how do we know >> According to psychology, how do we know if someone has the ability to change? if someone has the ability to change? if someone has the ability to change? >> Human beings are in are fallible >> Human beings are in are fallible >> Human beings are in are fallible creatures. We make mistakes. We make creatures. We make mistakes. We make creatures. We make mistakes. We make mistakes in relationships all the time, mistakes in relationships all the time, mistakes in relationships all the time, in marriages, in friendships, with in marriages, in friendships, with in marriages, in friendships, with siblings, with parents. It's never the siblings, with parents. It's never the siblings, with parents. It's never the mistake. It's always the repair, right? mistake. It's always the repair, right? mistake. It's always the repair, right? The ability to be vulnerable, to have The ability to be vulnerable, to have The ability to be vulnerable, to have the conversation. If you look at Esther the conversation. If you look at Esther the conversation. If you look at Esther Perel's work, Esther's work is Perel's work, Esther's work is Perel's work, Esther's work is interesting. Whenever I have interesting. Whenever I have interesting. Whenever I have conversations with her, I'm always conversations with her, I'm always conversations with her, I'm always talking about narcissistic cheaters, and talking about narcissistic cheaters, and talking about narcissistic cheaters, and Esther's talking about the larger world Esther's talking about the larger world Esther's talking about the larger world of infidelity. But Esther has so many of infidelity. But Esther has so many of infidelity. But Esther has so many examples of people who even after a huge examples of people who even after a huge examples of people who even after a huge breach of trust, like infidelity, can breach of trust, like infidelity, can breach of trust, like infidelity, can repair the relationship when there's repair the relationship when there's repair the relationship when there's authentic accountability. And there I do authentic accountability. And there I do authentic accountability. And there I do really believe that repair, there's a really believe that repair, there's a really believe that repair, there's a real anatomy of how we repair, that real anatomy of how we repair, that real anatomy of how we repair, that there's the person who did the harmful there's the person who did the harmful there's the person who did the harmful thing takes accountability. Bonus points thing takes accountability. Bonus points thing takes accountability. Bonus points if it's spontaneous accountability, but if it's spontaneous accountability, but if it's spontaneous accountability, but takes accountability. takes accountability. takes accountability. Recognizes it, bears witness, bears Recognizes it, bears witness, bears Recognizes it, bears witness, bears witness to the pain of the other. Offers witness to the pain of the other. Offers witness to the pain of the other. Offers an apology, not based on how they're an apology, not based on how they're an apology, not based on how they're inconvenienced about it, but I am so inconvenienced about it, but I am so inconvenienced about it, but I am so sorry. I can see this hurt you. You sorry. I can see this hurt you. You sorry. I can see this hurt you. You You're suffering, and I'm so sorry I was You're suffering, and I'm so sorry I was You're suffering, and I'm so sorry I was a part of that. a part of that. a part of that. But then, the ringer of ringers is they But then, the ringer of ringers is they But then, the ringer of ringers is they change their behavior. And then that's change their behavior. And then that's change their behavior. And then that's when we say, I am so sorry. Let me like when we say, I am so sorry. Let me like when we say, I am so sorry. Let me like let Let me collect myself cuz this let Let me collect myself cuz this let Let me collect myself cuz this wasn't okay. Now, they can't keep doing wasn't okay. Now, they can't keep doing wasn't okay. Now, they can't keep doing that. They can't keep slipping and that. They can't keep slipping and that. They can't keep slipping and saying sorry, slipping and saying sorry. saying sorry, slipping and saying sorry. saying sorry, slipping and saying sorry. But some time may go by, and then But some time may go by, and then But some time may go by, and then they'll make the mistake. Again, they'll make the mistake. Again, they'll make the mistake. Again, accountability. And that's the back and accountability. And that's the back and accountability. And that's the back and forth dance. That's how you know. It's forth dance. That's how you know. It's forth dance. That's how you know. It's Yeah, all the things I just said. Yeah, all the things I just said. Yeah, all the things I just said. Accountability, Accountability, Accountability, apology, bearing witness, but above all, apology, bearing witness, but above all, apology, bearing witness, but above all, behavior change. behavior change. behavior change. That's it. That's how you know someone That's it. That's how you know someone That's it. That's how you know someone can do it. And I'm sure you've been in can do it. And I'm sure you've been in can do it. And I'm sure you've been in relationships where there's been repair. relationships where there's been repair. relationships where there's been repair. I've been in relationships when there I've been in relationships when there I've been in relationships when there repair there's repair. And what's repair there's repair. And what's repair there's repair. And what's amazing is when there's repair, the amazing is when there's repair, the amazing is when there's repair, the relationship gets stronger. It actually relationship gets stronger. It actually relationship gets stronger. It actually goes to a much deeper place because now goes to a much deeper place because now goes to a much deeper place because now you've shown that even when something you've shown that even when something you've shown that even when something scary happens, you're protected because scary happens, you're protected because scary happens, you're protected because someone's saying, "I didn't do right and someone's saying, "I didn't do right and someone's saying, "I didn't do right and I will try to do right." Every harmed I will try to do right." Every harmed I will try to do right." Every harmed person out there would have loved to person out there would have loved to person out there would have loved to have heard that. But, that's how we have heard that. But, that's how we have heard that. But, that's how we know. It's the actual manifestation of know. It's the actual manifestation of know. It's the actual manifestation of the behavior. It's not cuz someone says the behavior. It's not cuz someone says the behavior. It's not cuz someone says they're going to. Sadly, that's time. they're going to. Sadly, that's time. they're going to. Sadly, that's time. >> Totally agree. Let's say someone's >> Totally agree. Let's say someone's >> Totally agree. Let's say someone's listening right now and thinking, listening right now and thinking, listening right now and thinking, "I want to go no contact. I've been "I want to go no contact. I've been "I want to go no contact. I've been thinking about it. I've tried thinking about it. I've tried thinking about it. I've tried everything. I've tried therapy on everything. I've tried therapy on everything. I've tried therapy on myself. myself. myself. I tried getting cards to the other I tried getting cards to the other I tried getting cards to the other person to go to therapy. They weren't up person to go to therapy. They weren't up person to go to therapy. They weren't up for it. for it. for it. I tried to raise what they were I tried to raise what they were I tried to raise what they were accountable for. They maybe took some accountable for. They maybe took some accountable for. They maybe took some accountability, but they didn't really accountability, but they didn't really accountability, but they didn't really change their behavior. change their behavior. change their behavior. They continued to act the same way. I've They continued to act the same way. I've They continued to act the same way. I've I've never felt like they've really I've never felt like they've really I've never felt like they've really understood or acknowledged what they've understood or acknowledged what they've understood or acknowledged what they've done. So, they're feeling all of that. done. So, they're feeling all of that. done. So, they're feeling all of that. But, then at the same time they go, But, then at the same time they go, But, then at the same time they go, "I can never go no contact. It's my mom "I can never go no contact. It's my mom "I can never go no contact. It's my mom or my dad that like did so much for me. or my dad that like did so much for me. or my dad that like did so much for me. I know they weren't perfect, but we I know they weren't perfect, but we I know they weren't perfect, but we start to justify and fill in the gaps start to justify and fill in the gaps start to justify and fill in the gaps and we start to make excuses sometimes and we start to make excuses sometimes and we start to make excuses sometimes or we start to maybe even have very or we start to maybe even have very or we start to maybe even have very valid points. But, there's still a part valid points. But, there's still a part valid points. But, there's still a part of us that goes, of us that goes, of us that goes, "I don't want to see them because I "I don't want to see them because I "I don't want to see them because I can't." If someone's in that position, can't." If someone's in that position, can't." If someone's in that position, how would you encourage them to think how would you encourage them to think how would you encourage them to think about and reflect on that? about and reflect on that? about and reflect on that? >> There's different ways to think about >> There's different ways to think about >> There's different ways to think about this. Even in the narcissism world, and this. Even in the narcissism world, and this. Even in the narcissism world, and I talk about sort of um disengagement I talk about sort of um disengagement I talk about sort of um disengagement strategies. We talk about yellow rock strategies. We talk about yellow rock strategies. We talk about yellow rock and gray rock and low contact and all of and gray rock and low contact and all of and gray rock and low contact and all of that. that. that. It's for a person to really assess that It's for a person to really assess that It's for a person to really assess that they're even thinking, "I want to go no they're even thinking, "I want to go no they're even thinking, "I want to go no contact." What I want to know more than contact." What I want to know more than contact." What I want to know more than anything is what's your why? anything is what's your why? anything is what's your why? What's driving it? Some people say, "I What's driving it? Some people say, "I What's driving it? Some people say, "I get sick every time I see them. I get get sick every time I see them. I get get sick every time I see them. I get hurt every time I see them. I literally hurt every time I see them. I literally hurt every time I see them. I literally don't feel safe in my body when I'm with don't feel safe in my body when I'm with don't feel safe in my body when I'm with them. I'm not even myself. It's an them. I'm not even myself. It's an them. I'm not even myself. It's an out-of-body experience. I'm concerned out-of-body experience. I'm concerned out-of-body experience. I'm concerned for my kids when I'm with them." Pay for my kids when I'm with them." Pay for my kids when I'm with them." Pay attention to your why. If your why is, attention to your why. If your why is, attention to your why. If your why is, "I want them to feel as bad as I have," "I want them to feel as bad as I have," "I want them to feel as bad as I have," that is going to often be a less healthy that is going to often be a less healthy that is going to often be a less healthy reason and it can leave the person who's reason and it can leave the person who's reason and it can leave the person who's gone no contact more likely to gone no contact more likely to gone no contact more likely to experience regret. experience regret. experience regret. But I would say to folks, this is number But I would say to folks, this is number But I would say to folks, this is number one rule of no contact, I personally one rule of no contact, I personally one rule of no contact, I personally think, never tell the other person think, never tell the other person think, never tell the other person you're going no contact because it you're going no contact because it you're going no contact because it becomes a lot of clanging bells and it becomes a lot of clanging bells and it becomes a lot of clanging bells and it feels like a a tactic at that point. In feels like a a tactic at that point. In feels like a a tactic at that point. In many cases, no contact is a gradual many cases, no contact is a gradual many cases, no contact is a gradual stepping back anyhow. It's it's pretty stepping back anyhow. It's it's pretty stepping back anyhow. It's it's pretty rare for a person to see someone every rare for a person to see someone every rare for a person to see someone every single day until Friday and then on single day until Friday and then on single day until Friday and then on Saturday go no contact with them, right? Saturday go no contact with them, right? Saturday go no contact with them, right? It tends to be successive approximations It tends to be successive approximations It tends to be successive approximations and what might be is that you're and what might be is that you're and what might be is that you're spending less time with them. And there spending less time with them. And there spending less time with them. And there may be a sweet spot that you say may be a sweet spot that you say may be a sweet spot that you say I am not voluntarily going to show up, I am not voluntarily going to show up, I am not voluntarily going to show up, but if it's something like I'm not going but if it's something like I'm not going but if it's something like I'm not going to miss my cousin's wedding because to miss my cousin's wedding because to miss my cousin's wedding because they're going to be there. So some they're going to be there. So some they're going to be there. So some people will kind of try to clear out people will kind of try to clear out people will kind of try to clear out that kind of territory. that kind of territory. that kind of territory. Some people will do the form of low Some people will do the form of low Some people will do the form of low contact where they say, "If I see them, contact where they say, "If I see them, contact where they say, "If I see them, it's going to be polite conversation. it's going to be polite conversation. it's going to be polite conversation. I'm not going to tell them what's going I'm not going to tell them what's going I'm not going to tell them what's going on in my life. I'm not going to engage on in my life. I'm not going to engage on in my life. I'm not going to engage them in any significant way. I'm not them in any significant way. I'm not them in any significant way. I'm not going to sleep in their home. I'm not going to sleep in their home. I'm not going to sleep in their home. I'm not going to have a meal with them." So some going to have a meal with them." So some going to have a meal with them." So some of it may actually look like that. of it may actually look like that. of it may actually look like that. But I would tell people, experiment with But I would tell people, experiment with But I would tell people, experiment with different strategies. See what can work different strategies. See what can work different strategies. See what can work for you cuz the cultural piece is huge, for you cuz the cultural piece is huge, for you cuz the cultural piece is huge, Jay. A lot of people will say, "This is Jay. A lot of people will say, "This is Jay. A lot of people will say, "This is just not what we do in my culture." And just not what we do in my culture." And just not what we do in my culture." And it is it's not This is no longer just it is it's not This is no longer just it is it's not This is no longer just about no contact with me and a member of about no contact with me and a member of about no contact with me and a member of my family, whomever it may be, parent, my family, whomever it may be, parent, my family, whomever it may be, parent, sibling, whomever. It is I am now kind sibling, whomever. It is I am now kind sibling, whomever. It is I am now kind of wobbling this whole family system and of wobbling this whole family system and of wobbling this whole family system and I'm very fond of people cuz some people I'm very fond of people cuz some people I'm very fond of people cuz some people will say, "I go no contact with person will say, "I go no contact with person will say, "I go no contact with person A, A, A, I don't get to see person B who's I don't get to see person B who's I don't get to see person B who's actually really beloved to me." So now actually really beloved to me." So now actually really beloved to me." So now you're all of a sudden finding yourself you're all of a sudden finding yourself you're all of a sudden finding yourself in these triangulations. So I'll tell in these triangulations. So I'll tell in these triangulations. So I'll tell people, figure out the successive people, figure out the successive people, figure out the successive approximations and what helps you feel approximations and what helps you feel approximations and what helps you feel safer cuz sometimes through agency a safer cuz sometimes through agency a safer cuz sometimes through agency a person will say, "I know I'm going to my person will say, "I know I'm going to my person will say, "I know I'm going to my cousin's wedding to see my cousin get cousin's wedding to see my cousin get cousin's wedding to see my cousin get married, but I may very well leave married, but I may very well leave married, but I may very well leave before the dinner because I think that's before the dinner because I think that's before the dinner because I think that's when things are going to kind of get when things are going to kind of get when things are going to kind of get hot. And I'm going to let my cousin hot. And I'm going to let my cousin hot. And I'm going to let my cousin know, you mean so much to me. I want to know, you mean so much to me. I want to know, you mean so much to me. I want to see your wedding. I want to see that see your wedding. I want to see that see your wedding. I want to see that moment. You're getting married, but I moment. You're getting married, but I moment. You're getting married, but I think that the dinner may be too much. I think that the dinner may be too much. I think that the dinner may be too much. I think we can communicate to other think we can communicate to other think we can communicate to other stakeholders. What I also remind people stakeholders. What I also remind people stakeholders. What I also remind people is no contact may not always be forever. is no contact may not always be forever. is no contact may not always be forever. This is a big one for people because I This is a big one for people because I This is a big one for people because I view no contact as a time of healing. view no contact as a time of healing. view no contact as a time of healing. It's a time when this person who leaves It's a time when this person who leaves It's a time when this person who leaves you feeling unsafe in your body and you feeling unsafe in your body and you feeling unsafe in your body and self-abandoning and all of that. You've self-abandoning and all of that. You've self-abandoning and all of that. You've removed that stimulus for a while. You removed that stimulus for a while. You removed that stimulus for a while. You can do a lot of the hard work of can do a lot of the hard work of can do a lot of the hard work of healing. Really get back in your body. healing. Really get back in your body. healing. Really get back in your body. You know, you know, really explore your You know, you know, really explore your You know, you know, really explore your sense of self, your authentic self, sense of self, your authentic self, sense of self, your authentic self, connect in other healthy relationships. connect in other healthy relationships. connect in other healthy relationships. Armed with that, when circumstances line Armed with that, when circumstances line Armed with that, when circumstances line up that you may have to be in contact up that you may have to be in contact up that you may have to be in contact with that person again, you're in a much with that person again, you're in a much with that person again, you're in a much different position to do so, much more different position to do so, much more different position to do so, much more from a place of agency. I'm not going to from a place of agency. I'm not going to from a place of agency. I'm not going to stay all evening. I'm not going to get stay all evening. I'm not going to get stay all evening. I'm not going to get into those topics. If they start poking, into those topics. If they start poking, into those topics. If they start poking, I'm going to give myself permission to I'm going to give myself permission to I'm going to give myself permission to leave. I'm then probably not feel as leave. I'm then probably not feel as leave. I'm then probably not feel as triggered, too. So, I think the decision triggered, too. So, I think the decision triggered, too. So, I think the decision really comes from what is driving you, really comes from what is driving you, really comes from what is driving you, and things can always be rolled back if and things can always be rolled back if and things can always be rolled back if they don't feel right. And nobody needs they don't feel right. And nobody needs they don't feel right. And nobody needs to know about it. to know about it. to know about it. >> I used to think building a business >> I used to think building a business >> I used to think building a business meant doing everything on your own. But meant doing everything on your own. But meant doing everything on your own. But building Juni taught me something building Juni taught me something building Juni taught me something different. Shopify is the platform we different. Shopify is the platform we different. Shopify is the platform we use to run and grow the business. And use to run and grow the business. And use to run and grow the business. And one of the things I love most is one of the things I love most is one of the things I love most is Sidekick, Shopify's AI co-founder. It's Sidekick, Shopify's AI co-founder. It's Sidekick, Shopify's AI co-founder. It's like having a business partner who never like having a business partner who never like having a business partner who never sleeps. 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So, head to drinkjuni.com/kroger So, head to drinkjuni.com/kroger So, head to drinkjuni.com/kroger to claim your free can in store so you to claim your free can in store so you to claim your free can in store so you can feel better and live better. That's can feel better and live better. That's can feel better and live better. That's a really interesting take of not a really interesting take of not a really interesting take of not announcing it. I couldn't agree with you announcing it. I couldn't agree with you announcing it. I couldn't agree with you more. I think sometimes we want to put more. I think sometimes we want to put more. I think sometimes we want to put in the big announcement, and that almost in the big announcement, and that almost in the big announcement, and that almost feels like the why isn't that strong. feels like the why isn't that strong. feels like the why isn't that strong. And actually, you're right that the more And actually, you're right that the more And actually, you're right that the more natural way of doing it is I used to see natural way of doing it is I used to see natural way of doing it is I used to see them every week, now I see them every them every week, now I see them every them every week, now I see them every month, and now I see them every quarter, month, and now I see them every quarter, month, and now I see them every quarter, and now I don't see them maybe once a and now I don't see them maybe once a and now I don't see them maybe once a year if that. year if that. year if that. I think we also underestimate, and I can I think we also underestimate, and I can I think we also underestimate, and I can speak about this from experience that I speak about this from experience that I speak about this from experience that I found when I've been in this position, found when I've been in this position, found when I've been in this position, I didn't do this as a technique, but I didn't do this as a technique, but I didn't do this as a technique, but even though I did not speak to this one even though I did not speak to this one even though I did not speak to this one person for around 2 years, person for around 2 years, person for around 2 years, when I didn't did talk to them again, when I didn't did talk to them again, when I didn't did talk to them again, I found that the relationship was so I found that the relationship was so I found that the relationship was so much more respectful from their side much more respectful from their side much more respectful from their side because they realized there were real because they realized there were real because they realized there were real consequences to that behavior. consequences to that behavior. consequences to that behavior. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that's something I never realized >> And that's something I never realized >> And that's something I never realized before. I always felt being a loving, before. I always felt being a loving, before. I always felt being a loving, compassionate, empathetic person would compassionate, empathetic person would compassionate, empathetic person would be the thing to help them change. When I be the thing to help them change. When I be the thing to help them change. When I realized that no contact, even though I realized that no contact, even though I realized that no contact, even though I didn't use it as a technique to change didn't use it as a technique to change didn't use it as a technique to change them, I did it to protect myself, them, I did it to protect myself, them, I did it to protect myself, that changed their relationship with me that changed their relationship with me that changed their relationship with me because they now realized and initially because they now realized and initially because they now realized and initially when I stopped talking to them, their when I stopped talking to them, their when I stopped talking to them, their their reaction was like, "Well, why did their reaction was like, "Well, why did their reaction was like, "Well, why did you stop talking to me? What's going you stop talking to me? What's going you stop talking to me? What's going on?" And my response was, on?" And my response was, on?" And my response was, "Because I don't want to be treated that "Because I don't want to be treated that "Because I don't want to be treated that way anymore. And they said, "Well, what way anymore. And they said, "Well, what way anymore. And they said, "Well, what do you mean? Like, you know, we have do you mean? Like, you know, we have do you mean? Like, you know, we have these conversations and tomorrow we these conversations and tomorrow we these conversations and tomorrow we forget about it and move on." And I was forget about it and move on." And I was forget about it and move on." And I was like, "Oh, okay. That's how you think like, "Oh, okay. That's how you think like, "Oh, okay. That's how you think the rules go." And I was like, "Well, to the rules go." And I was like, "Well, to the rules go." And I was like, "Well, to me I I don't want to tolerate that me I I don't want to tolerate that me I I don't want to tolerate that anymore." We didn't talk for 2 years and anymore." We didn't talk for 2 years and anymore." We didn't talk for 2 years and then all of a sudden now when we then all of a sudden now when we then all of a sudden now when we connect, which isn't very often either, connect, which isn't very often either, connect, which isn't very often either, but now when we do, they know it can but now when we do, they know it can but now when we do, they know it can never get to that level because there's never get to that level because there's never get to that level because there's real consequences to that. real consequences to that. real consequences to that. >> doesn't always happen though, Jay. >> doesn't always happen though, Jay. >> doesn't always happen though, Jay. Sometimes people will go no contact for, Sometimes people will go no contact for, Sometimes people will go no contact for, you know, the protective, really healing you know, the protective, really healing you know, the protective, really healing reasons. reasons. reasons. And if they are in the wake of the And if they are in the wake of the And if they are in the wake of the person again, the person will say, "How person again, the person will say, "How person again, the person will say, "How dare you?" Or "I can't believe you dare you?" Or "I can't believe you dare you?" Or "I can't believe you abandoned me." Or "Do you not know how abandoned me." Or "Do you not know how abandoned me." Or "Do you not know how everything I did for you?" everything I did for you?" everything I did for you?" "How can you be so ungrateful?" In some "How can you be so ungrateful?" In some "How can you be so ungrateful?" In some ways I tell folks, I say, "Can you ways I tell folks, I say, "Can you ways I tell folks, I say, "Can you believe this?" And I said, "Yes, and if believe this?" And I said, "Yes, and if believe this?" And I said, "Yes, and if anything, you just got a huge piece of anything, you just got a huge piece of anything, you just got a huge piece of data." data." data." And it is a the piece of data that And it is a the piece of data that And it is a the piece of data that confirms that that decision, what you confirms that that decision, what you confirms that that decision, what you observed, what you experienced, what you observed, what you experienced, what you observed, what you experienced, what you saw here, was absolutely accurate. You saw here, was absolutely accurate. You saw here, was absolutely accurate. You know, so I mean, you it it think all of know, so I mean, you it it think all of know, so I mean, you it it think all of us doubt ourselves. We're like, "Maybe us doubt ourselves. We're like, "Maybe us doubt ourselves. We're like, "Maybe I'm not seeing this right. Maybe I'm I'm not seeing this right. Maybe I'm I'm not seeing this right. Maybe I'm overblowing this." That's why I in my overblowing this." That's why I in my overblowing this." That's why I in my book, and it's not you, I write I call book, and it's not you, I write I call book, and it's not you, I write I call it going into the tiger's cage. I'm it going into the tiger's cage. I'm it going into the tiger's cage. I'm like, "Go back in the tiger's cage. See like, "Go back in the tiger's cage. See like, "Go back in the tiger's cage. See how that works out for you." If it's not how that works out for you." If it's not how that works out for you." If it's not that big a deal, it's a little kitty that big a deal, it's a little kitty that big a deal, it's a little kitty cat. Pet it and have a great time. But cat. Pet it and have a great time. But cat. Pet it and have a great time. But if it's a tiger, it's going to it's if it's a tiger, it's going to it's if it's a tiger, it's going to it's going to slash you up again. And so, if going to slash you up again. And so, if going to slash you up again. And so, if it does, you're getting some good data it does, you're getting some good data it does, you're getting some good data there that you did see this right. And there that you did see this right. And there that you did see this right. And if anything, it really makes you a if anything, it really makes you a if anything, it really makes you a greater steward of your own intuition greater steward of your own intuition greater steward of your own intuition and your own body and your how you're and your own body and your how you're and your own body and your how you're are you communicate within yourself. You are you communicate within yourself. You are you communicate within yourself. You saw this. For a hundred reasons outside saw this. For a hundred reasons outside saw this. For a hundred reasons outside of you, it felt uncomfortable. Like I of you, it felt uncomfortable. Like I of you, it felt uncomfortable. Like I said, I'm sharing my own experience. said, I'm sharing my own experience. said, I'm sharing my own experience. Most of it it's not my parents. I've Most of it it's not my parents. I've Most of it it's not my parents. I've found my way. I mean, I've lost my mom found my way. I mean, I've lost my mom found my way. I mean, I've lost my mom as I've told you, and I found my way, as I've told you, and I found my way, as I've told you, and I found my way, you know, my with my clunky way with my you know, my with my clunky way with my you know, my with my clunky way with my dad. So, fine there. But when this other dad. So, fine there. But when this other dad. So, fine there. But when this other relationship, for a long time I saw it relationship, for a long time I saw it relationship, for a long time I saw it and I saw it and I saw it, but when it and I saw it and I saw it, but when it and I saw it and I saw it, but when it came to the ultimate thing, came to the ultimate thing, came to the ultimate thing, I thought I was right all along. And I thought I was right all along. And I thought I was right all along. And then, ironically, just in the last few then, ironically, just in the last few then, ironically, just in the last few days, I was speaking with a days, I was speaking with a days, I was speaking with a another family member who then gave another family member who then gave another family member who then gave another piece of evidence, and I was another piece of evidence, and I was another piece of evidence, and I was like, I was really right. Then I'm like, I was really right. Then I'm like, I was really right. Then I'm walking around pumped up like, I thought walking around pumped up like, I thought walking around pumped up like, I thought I was so intuitively smart. It wasn't at I was so intuitively smart. It wasn't at I was so intuitively smart. It wasn't at all ego. It was actually soothing. Like, all ego. It was actually soothing. Like, all ego. It was actually soothing. Like, you read this right, and it's okay to you read this right, and it's okay to you read this right, and it's okay to keep yourself safe, but it is so hard, keep yourself safe, but it is so hard, keep yourself safe, but it is so hard, Jay, when the pressure of the world is Jay, when the pressure of the world is Jay, when the pressure of the world is family is great, and estrangement is family is great, and estrangement is family is great, and estrangement is bad, and I shudder to think how much bad, and I shudder to think how much bad, and I shudder to think how much human potential we've lost by people who human potential we've lost by people who human potential we've lost by people who couldn't give themselves, for a variety couldn't give themselves, for a variety couldn't give themselves, for a variety of reasons, the permission to detach of reasons, the permission to detach of reasons, the permission to detach from a harmful relationship, and just from a harmful relationship, and just from a harmful relationship, and just remained separated from themselves, and remained separated from themselves, and remained separated from themselves, and silencing themselves, because they felt silencing themselves, because they felt silencing themselves, because they felt that pressure to keep engaging with that pressure to keep engaging with that pressure to keep engaging with something that didn't feel safe. That's something that didn't feel safe. That's something that didn't feel safe. That's the real tragedy of this. the real tragedy of this. the real tragedy of this. >> I agree with you, and I think though >> I agree with you, and I think though >> I agree with you, and I think though that it's those of us who have that that it's those of us who have that that it's those of us who have that empathy and have that compassion, and empathy and have that compassion, and empathy and have that compassion, and have that loving nature, that find it have that loving nature, that find it have that loving nature, that find it the hardest to do. the hardest to do. the hardest to do. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Because you think you're being >> Because you think you're being >> Because you think you're being ungrateful, but every time you engage ungrateful, but every time you engage ungrateful, but every time you engage with them, you always come back wounded. with them, you always come back wounded. with them, you always come back wounded. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> So, it's like, you think you're being >> So, it's like, you think you're being >> So, it's like, you think you're being ungrateful, so you're like, no, I've got ungrateful, so you're like, no, I've got ungrateful, so you're like, no, I've got to be grateful with this family member, to be grateful with this family member, to be grateful with this family member, this parent, whatever it may be, so I'm this parent, whatever it may be, so I'm this parent, whatever it may be, so I'm going to stay connected. But then, every going to stay connected. But then, every going to stay connected. But then, every time you're around them, you come back time you're around them, you come back time you're around them, you come back crying, wounded, hurt, upset, whatever crying, wounded, hurt, upset, whatever crying, wounded, hurt, upset, whatever it may be. it may be. it may be. >> Physically ill. >> Physically ill. >> Physically ill. >> Yeah. And then you recover for a few >> Yeah. And then you recover for a few >> Yeah. And then you recover for a few days, and you think, oh no, I was just days, and you think, oh no, I was just days, and you think, oh no, I was just overreacting, it was just a cat. And now overreacting, it was just a cat. And now overreacting, it was just a cat. And now go back to the tiger's cage, as you go back to the tiger's cage, as you go back to the tiger's cage, as you beautifully put. So many of us keep beautifully put. So many of us keep beautifully put. So many of us keep going back to that, because it's, in going back to that, because it's, in going back to that, because it's, in Thich Nhat Hanh's words, it's better to Thich Nhat Hanh's words, it's better to Thich Nhat Hanh's words, it's better to have familiar pain than unfamiliar pain. have familiar pain than unfamiliar pain. have familiar pain than unfamiliar pain. And so, we'd rather have that familiar And so, we'd rather have that familiar And so, we'd rather have that familiar experience, and stay close to someone experience, and stay close to someone experience, and stay close to someone who's bad for us, than have the who's bad for us, than have the who's bad for us, than have the unfamiliar pain of I don't know what unfamiliar pain of I don't know what unfamiliar pain of I don't know what life looks like if I don't talk to them. life looks like if I don't talk to them. life looks like if I don't talk to them. What did How does someone figure that What did How does someone figure that What did How does someone figure that out, and actually take have the courage out, and actually take have the courage out, and actually take have the courage to say, no, I need to do what's right to say, no, I need to do what's right to say, no, I need to do what's right for me? for me? for me? >> This is where Gabor's words so ring for >> This is where Gabor's words so ring for >> This is where Gabor's words so ring for me, is that there's no path free of me, is that there's no path free of me, is that there's no path free of pain. I think people do believe Dre, one pain. I think people do believe Dre, one pain. I think people do believe Dre, one of these paths is more pain free or of these paths is more pain free or of these paths is more pain free or easy. So, they're both really, really easy. So, they're both really, really easy. So, they're both really, really difficult. And familiar pain is tough. difficult. And familiar pain is tough. difficult. And familiar pain is tough. We talk about stuff like the trauma bond We talk about stuff like the trauma bond We talk about stuff like the trauma bond and all of that. That's familiar pain. and all of that. That's familiar pain. and all of that. That's familiar pain. We know how to navigate familiar pain, We know how to navigate familiar pain, We know how to navigate familiar pain, right? That's that's the we know we know right? That's that's the we know we know right? That's that's the we know we know where the hazards are. We know exactly where the hazards are. We know exactly where the hazards are. We know exactly what to look for and not it's terrible, what to look for and not it's terrible, what to look for and not it's terrible, but we know how to navigate it. The but we know how to navigate it. The but we know how to navigate it. The unfamiliar pain, well, that's that's unfamiliar pain, well, that's that's unfamiliar pain, well, that's that's terrifying. But, what people don't terrifying. But, what people don't terrifying. But, what people don't always realize is that pain of not always realize is that pain of not always realize is that pain of not abandoning, not silencing, not abandoning, not silencing, not abandoning, not silencing, not suppressing yourself. Okay? You would suppressing yourself. Okay? You would suppressing yourself. Okay? You would say that why would those things be say that why would those things be say that why would those things be painful? Because my gosh, your true painful? Because my gosh, your true painful? Because my gosh, your true self, that's some dangerous stuff you've self, that's some dangerous stuff you've self, that's some dangerous stuff you've been told. How dare you? How dare you is been told. How dare you? How dare you is been told. How dare you? How dare you is very much a connective tissue in a toxic very much a connective tissue in a toxic very much a connective tissue in a toxic relationship. Now though, what's relationship. Now though, what's relationship. Now though, what's happening is a person is living more in happening is a person is living more in happening is a person is living more in congruity with who they are, what congruity with who they are, what congruity with who they are, what they're about. They're connecting with they're about. They're connecting with they're about. They're connecting with healthier people. I mean, there are some healthier people. I mean, there are some healthier people. I mean, there are some people out there who don't have healthy people out there who don't have healthy people out there who don't have healthy ties in their life, which is painful, ties in their life, which is painful, ties in their life, which is painful, very painful. very painful. very painful. But, I want you to contrast what the But, I want you to contrast what the But, I want you to contrast what the time with this person you're thinking of time with this person you're thinking of time with this person you're thinking of going no contact with going no contact with going no contact with and contrast that to spending time with and contrast that to spending time with and contrast that to spending time with someone who is attuned and it's mutual someone who is attuned and it's mutual someone who is attuned and it's mutual and it's reciprocal and it's safe. And and it's reciprocal and it's safe. And and it's reciprocal and it's safe. And people say it's it's a categorically people say it's it's a categorically people say it's it's a categorically different experiences, right? And why is different experiences, right? And why is different experiences, right? And why is that? Well, can you show up as your real that? Well, can you show up as your real that? Well, can you show up as your real self? Of course I can. I can be me. I self? Of course I can. I can be me. I self? Of course I can. I can be me. I don't feel judged. I don't feel shamed. don't feel judged. I don't feel shamed. don't feel judged. I don't feel shamed. Da da da da da da. Sometimes just seeing Da da da da da da. Sometimes just seeing Da da da da da da. Sometimes just seeing that contrast, but then when people are that contrast, but then when people are that contrast, but then when people are talking about the obligations, the talking about the obligations, the talking about the obligations, the familiar pain as it were, it's also familiar pain as it were, it's also familiar pain as it were, it's also understanding where those are, how they understanding where those are, how they understanding where those are, how they they they act and really as tools of they they act and really as tools of they they act and really as tools of social control. But, above all else I social control. But, above all else I social control. But, above all else I the point I make is these paths both the point I make is these paths both the point I make is these paths both hurt. Only one of them though does carry hurt. Only one of them though does carry hurt. Only one of them though does carry the dividend that you will actually get the dividend that you will actually get the dividend that you will actually get to live to live to live as an as your authentic self, as an as your authentic self, as an as your authentic self, which is going to which is going to which is going to it is going to improve your health just it is going to improve your health just it is going to improve your health just like that. There's such a sense of like that. There's such a sense of like that. There's such a sense of sometimes if you've never experienced sometimes if you've never experienced sometimes if you've never experienced safety, you don't even know what it safety, you don't even know what it safety, you don't even know what it feels like. And I think sometimes when feels like. And I think sometimes when feels like. And I think sometimes when you find a safe new relationship, you find a safe new relationship, you find a safe new relationship, whether it's a partner, a friend, whether it's a partner, a friend, whether it's a partner, a friend, a roommate, whatever it may be, and then a roommate, whatever it may be, and then a roommate, whatever it may be, and then you all of a sudden go, "Oh, wait a you all of a sudden go, "Oh, wait a you all of a sudden go, "Oh, wait a minute. This is what safety feels like." minute. This is what safety feels like." minute. This is what safety feels like." And now you have the realization that And now you have the realization that And now you have the realization that what you had before was unsafe. And what you had before was unsafe. And what you had before was unsafe. And that's when you come to the decision that's when you come to the decision that's when you come to the decision that "Oh, I need to go no contact that "Oh, I need to go no contact that "Oh, I need to go no contact because now I experience because now I experience because now I experience what a relationship should look like, what a relationship should look like, what a relationship should look like, and I didn't know that before. and I didn't know that before. and I didn't know that before. >> And what gets so challenging is, >> And what gets so challenging is, >> And what gets so challenging is, unfortunately, like I said, people talk unfortunately, like I said, people talk unfortunately, like I said, people talk too much, right? The people will then go too much, right? The people will then go too much, right? The people will then go to the no contact person or system and to the no contact person or system and to the no contact person or system and said, "I now saw this. This is what said, "I now saw this. This is what said, "I now saw this. This is what healthy feels like." You know what they healthy feels like." You know what they healthy feels like." You know what they always hear? "Oh, always hear? "Oh, always hear? "Oh, these people are just saying what you these people are just saying what you these people are just saying what you want to hear. We are your family. We want to hear. We are your family. We want to hear. We are your family. We tell you the truth. You don't like to tell you the truth. You don't like to tell you the truth. You don't like to hear the truth, but we tell you that hear the truth, but we tell you that hear the truth, but we tell you that truth. They're not going to tell you truth. They're not going to tell you truth. They're not going to tell you that. That's nothing nothing." They get that. That's nothing nothing." They get that. That's nothing nothing." They get into this divide of Now the people were into this divide of Now the people were into this divide of Now the people were harming them are saying even that's not harming them are saying even that's not harming them are saying even that's not real. That's a gaslight. But there is real. That's a gaslight. But there is real. That's a gaslight. But there is this sense, "We're telling you the this sense, "We're telling you the this sense, "We're telling you the truth. The truth is painful. We're not truth. The truth is painful. We're not truth. The truth is painful. We're not going to trick you. We don't want to you going to trick you. We don't want to you going to trick you. We don't want to you to go out in the world and look to go out in the world and look to go out in the world and look foolish." So, for people to get foolish." So, for people to get foolish." So, for people to get themselves out of those places, the fact themselves out of those places, the fact themselves out of those places, the fact that they're even entertaining ending that they're even entertaining ending that they're even entertaining ending contact for some period of time, if not contact for some period of time, if not contact for some period of time, if not forever, to me that's a quantum leap in forever, to me that's a quantum leap in forever, to me that's a quantum leap in healing because they're even healing because they're even healing because they're even entertaining the possibility that entertaining the possibility that entertaining the possibility that there's an option other than this there's an option other than this there's an option other than this abusive mess that this relationship is. abusive mess that this relationship is. abusive mess that this relationship is. >> You're never announcing your no contact. >> You're never announcing your no contact. >> You're never announcing your no contact. You're not telling the other person You're not telling the other person You're not telling the other person you're you're doing it yourself. you're you're doing it yourself. you're you're doing it yourself. Naturally, you might find that person Naturally, you might find that person Naturally, you might find that person reaching out. reaching out. reaching out. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that person might start saying >> And that person might start saying >> And that person might start saying things like, "Why are you ignoring me? things like, "Why are you ignoring me? things like, "Why are you ignoring me? Why are you avoiding me? Why don't you Why are you avoiding me? Why don't you Why are you avoiding me? Why don't you come over for a while?" come over for a while?" come over for a while?" And I feel like that's a weak point for And I feel like that's a weak point for And I feel like that's a weak point for someone. someone. someone. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> How does that person hold their ground >> How does that person hold their ground >> How does that person hold their ground without getting into explaining and without getting into explaining and without getting into explaining and getting lost in like what if you sound getting lost in like what if you sound getting lost in like what if you sound as being helpful? as being helpful? as being helpful? >> It's so challenging, Jay, because if the >> It's so challenging, Jay, because if the >> It's so challenging, Jay, because if the person really doesn't respond, right? person really doesn't respond, right? person really doesn't respond, right? The person's reaching and saying, "Hey, The person's reaching and saying, "Hey, The person's reaching and saying, "Hey, why aren't you responding this and that why aren't you responding this and that why aren't you responding this and that and other. and other. and other. The person who's chosen to end contact The person who's chosen to end contact The person who's chosen to end contact will be accused of ghosting that person. will be accused of ghosting that person. will be accused of ghosting that person. And we view ghosting actually as And we view ghosting actually as And we view ghosting actually as avoidance. And I do want to put in this avoidance. And I do want to put in this avoidance. And I do want to put in this point about avoidance. Something I'm point about avoidance. Something I'm point about avoidance. Something I'm hearing in sort of the pushback on hearing in sort of the pushback on hearing in sort of the pushback on people who make the choice to go no people who make the choice to go no people who make the choice to go no contact, people who are estranged from contact, people who are estranged from contact, people who are estranged from their families, it keeps getting framed their families, it keeps getting framed their families, it keeps getting framed as avoidance. as avoidance. as avoidance. Is there a subset of cases where it is Is there a subset of cases where it is Is there a subset of cases where it is about avoidance? Sure. Like I said, that about avoidance? Sure. Like I said, that about avoidance? Sure. Like I said, that 27% is a mucky number, if you will, 27% is a mucky number, if you will, 27% is a mucky number, if you will, right? There are people who say, "I right? There are people who say, "I right? There are people who say, "I don't want to have an uncomfortable don't want to have an uncomfortable don't want to have an uncomfortable conversation, so I'm just going to do conversation, so I'm just going to do conversation, so I'm just going to do this." this." this." But in many, many people are going no But in many, many people are going no But in many, many people are going no contact to feel safe, they've attempted contact to feel safe, they've attempted contact to feel safe, they've attempted to have the uncomfortable conversation to have the uncomfortable conversation to have the uncomfortable conversation dozens and dozens of times. dozens and dozens of times. dozens and dozens of times. And remember, the people who are the And remember, the people who are the And remember, the people who are the harmers, who are uncomfortable, unsafe, harmers, who are uncomfortable, unsafe, harmers, who are uncomfortable, unsafe, whatever they are, they're likely not whatever they are, they're likely not whatever they are, they're likely not aware, right? Or they've come they've aware, right? Or they've come they've aware, right? Or they've come they've come up with a blame-shifted, you know, come up with a blame-shifted, you know, come up with a blame-shifted, you know, this isn't my problem, it's a your this isn't my problem, it's a your this isn't my problem, it's a your problem thing. But they feel entitled to problem thing. But they feel entitled to problem thing. But they feel entitled to access to this person who's kind of access to this person who's kind of access to this person who's kind of drifting away. If they completely block drifting away. If they completely block drifting away. If they completely block contact, they will be called ghosting, contact, they will be called ghosting, contact, they will be called ghosting, to which I say, "Then let them say to which I say, "Then let them say to which I say, "Then let them say you're ghosting." But I understand you're ghosting." But I understand you're ghosting." But I understand that's hard. People are saying, "I don't that's hard. People are saying, "I don't that's hard. People are saying, "I don't want to be characterized like that, cuz want to be characterized like that, cuz want to be characterized like that, cuz that's not who I am. I wouldn't do this that's not who I am. I wouldn't do this that's not who I am. I wouldn't do this in another relationship where this is in another relationship where this is in another relationship where this is not happening, okay?" not happening, okay?" not happening, okay?" Whatever you say to that person is not Whatever you say to that person is not Whatever you say to that person is not going to work. Some people will say, going to work. Some people will say, going to work. Some people will say, "Okay, I didn't want to announce it, but "Okay, I didn't want to announce it, but "Okay, I didn't want to announce it, but I am going to say to them, like, this is I am going to say to them, like, this is I am going to say to them, like, this is not healthy for me. This is not safe for not healthy for me. This is not safe for not healthy for me. This is not safe for me." Personally, I have an example I'd me." Personally, I have an example I'd me." Personally, I have an example I'd gone through quite some time ago, and it gone through quite some time ago, and it gone through quite some time ago, and it was it was it was more in the friendship was it was it was more in the friendship was it was it was more in the friendship friendship realm. There was nothing that friendship realm. There was nothing that friendship realm. There was nothing that could be said without it escalating into could be said without it escalating into could be said without it escalating into something actually quite terrifying. And something actually quite terrifying. And something actually quite terrifying. And it had to end, right? That person then it had to end, right? That person then it had to end, right? That person then went on to terrible things to many, many went on to terrible things to many, many went on to terrible things to many, many people I thought respected me, and just people I thought respected me, and just people I thought respected me, and just said is it what we call sort of a smear said is it what we call sort of a smear said is it what we call sort of a smear campaign. So, you had to tolerate that. campaign. So, you had to tolerate that. campaign. So, you had to tolerate that. So, if you didn't communicate the way So, if you didn't communicate the way So, if you didn't communicate the way that person wanted, and it always ended that person wanted, and it always ended that person wanted, and it always ended up in the same place, you have to up in the same place, you have to up in the same place, you have to reconcile radical acceptance. That if reconcile radical acceptance. That if reconcile radical acceptance. That if you attempt to say, "This has not felt you attempt to say, "This has not felt you attempt to say, "This has not felt safe. I don't feel like I I don't feel safe. I don't feel like I I don't feel safe. I don't feel like I I don't feel like I can be myself." Oh, blah, blah, like I can be myself." Oh, blah, blah, like I can be myself." Oh, blah, blah, blah, psychobabble. Did your therapist blah, psychobabble. Did your therapist blah, psychobabble. Did your therapist tell you to Since saying you're going to tell you to Since saying you're going to tell you to Since saying you're going to come up against that wall, so you have come up against that wall, so you have come up against that wall, so you have to be girded against that. Maybe you to be girded against that. Maybe you to be girded against that. Maybe you have again tiger's cage. Maybe seeing have again tiger's cage. Maybe seeing have again tiger's cage. Maybe seeing that one more time like this is why I that one more time like this is why I that one more time like this is why I went no contact and you'll push to that went no contact and you'll push to that went no contact and you'll push to that I'm not I'm not I'm just simply not I'm not I'm not I'm just simply not I'm not I'm not I'm just simply not responding to this anymore. And I don't responding to this anymore. And I don't responding to this anymore. And I don't like when people say I wish you well cuz like when people say I wish you well cuz like when people say I wish you well cuz we don't always wish people well and I we don't always wish people well and I we don't always wish people well and I think we pay karmically for all of that think we pay karmically for all of that think we pay karmically for all of that hypocrisy. hypocrisy. hypocrisy. >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, interesting. >> You don't even desire I wish you well >> You don't even desire I wish you well >> You don't even desire I wish you well cuz I'm thinking some of the people I've cuz I'm thinking some of the people I've cuz I'm thinking some of the people I've gone no contact with I don't wish them gone no contact with I don't wish them gone no contact with I don't wish them well. I don't wish them ill, but I don't well. I don't wish them ill, but I don't well. I don't wish them ill, but I don't wish them well. So, I I I tell people wish them well. So, I I I tell people wish them well. So, I I I tell people don't say I wish you well cuz you're don't say I wish you well cuz you're don't say I wish you well cuz you're putting something out there in the putting something out there in the putting something out there in the cosmos that just isn't vibing the right cosmos that just isn't vibing the right cosmos that just isn't vibing the right way. You might just say, "Listen, I I way. You might just say, "Listen, I I way. You might just say, "Listen, I I can't do this anymore." Now you have put can't do this anymore." Now you have put can't do this anymore." Now you have put a punctuation mark on it. You're saying, a punctuation mark on it. You're saying, a punctuation mark on it. You're saying, "I'm exiting stage left. Like I'm out of "I'm exiting stage left. Like I'm out of "I'm exiting stage left. Like I'm out of the scene at this point." the scene at this point." the scene at this point." At that point, I will bet you any amount At that point, I will bet you any amount At that point, I will bet you any amount of money, Jay Shetty, right now that of money, Jay Shetty, right now that of money, Jay Shetty, right now that that person you've gone no contact with that person you've gone no contact with that person you've gone no contact with is going to paint a terrible picture of is going to paint a terrible picture of is going to paint a terrible picture of you to the world. These things I almost you to the world. These things I almost you to the world. These things I almost view it as like almost like a hero's view it as like almost like a hero's view it as like almost like a hero's journey. All these bridges and fires you journey. All these bridges and fires you journey. All these bridges and fires you have to cross like there's going to be a have to cross like there's going to be a have to cross like there's going to be a smear campaign. There's going to be the smear campaign. There's going to be the smear campaign. There's going to be the same old accusations. There's going to same old accusations. There's going to same old accusations. There's going to be this. Yes, these are the terrible be this. Yes, these are the terrible be this. Yes, these are the terrible crumbling bridges you have to cross. And crumbling bridges you have to cross. And crumbling bridges you have to cross. And all of this was exactly what you were all of this was exactly what you were all of this was exactly what you were afraid of. No pain-free path. This path afraid of. No pain-free path. This path afraid of. No pain-free path. This path is every bit as painful as we knew it is every bit as painful as we knew it is every bit as painful as we knew it was going to be. So, this should be was going to be. So, this should be was going to be. So, this should be confirmation. You knew it would be. But confirmation. You knew it would be. But confirmation. You knew it would be. But now you are no longer in contact with now you are no longer in contact with now you are no longer in contact with someone cuz it would forever be this someone cuz it would forever be this someone cuz it would forever be this mess. There was a something I had read mess. There was a something I had read mess. There was a something I had read where a person was taking a stance about where a person was taking a stance about where a person was taking a stance about how "Oh, people are being too easy about how "Oh, people are being too easy about how "Oh, people are being too easy about no contact. We're not giving people a no contact. We're not giving people a no contact. We're not giving people a chance." chance." chance." And they're giving the example of And they're giving the example of And they're giving the example of somebody who has like really problematic somebody who has like really problematic somebody who has like really problematic political views and makes you feel political views and makes you feel political views and makes you feel really uncomfortable, but then said, really uncomfortable, but then said, really uncomfortable, but then said, "Oh, but they make great dessert. So, "Oh, but they make great dessert. So, "Oh, but they make great dessert. So, you can still have contact with them and you can still have contact with them and you can still have contact with them and and on the dessert." and on the dessert." and on the dessert." What? This person might be saying What? This person might be saying What? This person might be saying terrible, bigoted, or awful, or hurtful terrible, bigoted, or awful, or hurtful terrible, bigoted, or awful, or hurtful things that have that have respect to things that have that have respect to things that have that have respect to your child or to your someone dear to your child or to your someone dear to your child or to your someone dear to you or what you do for a living, and you or what you do for a living, and you or what you do for a living, and just because they can make a hell of an just because they can make a hell of an just because they can make a hell of an apple pie, that to keep this kind of apple pie, that to keep this kind of apple pie, that to keep this kind of mythology of family going, I don't buy mythology of family going, I don't buy mythology of family going, I don't buy that. I think it's again, it's almost a that. I think it's again, it's almost a that. I think it's again, it's almost a existing societal construct that family existing societal construct that family existing societal construct that family means self-abandonment, and I don't means self-abandonment, and I don't means self-abandonment, and I don't think it needs to be that. I do think think it needs to be that. I do think think it needs to be that. I do think that people can again experiment with no that people can again experiment with no that people can again experiment with no contact is how I I've always put it with contact is how I I've always put it with contact is how I I've always put it with the clients and patients I work with, the clients and patients I work with, the clients and patients I work with, and I've never seen anyone come to this and I've never seen anyone come to this and I've never seen anyone come to this decision easily. Every single person decision easily. Every single person decision easily. Every single person will say, grief, grief, grief, grief, will say, grief, grief, grief, grief, will say, grief, grief, grief, grief, grief, regret, grief, grief, grief, grief, regret, grief, grief, grief, grief, regret, grief, grief, grief, shame, grief, grief, guilt, grief, shame, grief, grief, guilt, grief, shame, grief, grief, guilt, grief, guilt, grief, guilt, grief, guilt, grief, and then peace. and then peace. and then peace. But my god, it was a hell of a path to But my god, it was a hell of a path to But my god, it was a hell of a path to get there, and even still, they'll say, get there, and even still, they'll say, get there, and even still, they'll say, I'll see families, a person with their I'll see families, a person with their I'll see families, a person with their parent, a person with their friend, a parent, a person with their friend, a parent, a person with their friend, a person with whomever, and with I'll look person with whomever, and with I'll look person with whomever, and with I'll look at that with envy because I don't have at that with envy because I don't have at that with envy because I don't have that. These are not easy decisions, but that. These are not easy decisions, but that. These are not easy decisions, but those punishers, sure, that's I guess those punishers, sure, that's I guess those punishers, sure, that's I guess it's a little easier for them, whatever it's a little easier for them, whatever it's a little easier for them, whatever their journey is. And yes, there are their journey is. And yes, there are their journey is. And yes, there are people where it's avoidance. Those are people where it's avoidance. Those are people where it's avoidance. Those are great candidates for therapy to figure great candidates for therapy to figure great candidates for therapy to figure out like cuz they're usually people who out like cuz they're usually people who out like cuz they're usually people who are in that avoidance mode are very are in that avoidance mode are very are in that avoidance mode are very scared. They're scared to make any move, scared. They're scared to make any move, scared. They're scared to make any move, and in a way it makes sense cuz every and in a way it makes sense cuz every and in a way it makes sense cuz every move is going to be painful. move is going to be painful. move is going to be painful. >> It's almost like >> It's almost like >> It's almost like if you choose no contact, it's grief, if you choose no contact, it's grief, if you choose no contact, it's grief, regret, guilt, shame, regret, guilt, shame, regret, guilt, shame, and if you choose to stay connected, and if you choose to stay connected, and if you choose to stay connected, it's pain, stress, it's pain, stress, it's pain, stress, pressure, fear. pressure, fear. pressure, fear. >> Right, but it's also, Jay, societal >> Right, but it's also, Jay, societal >> Right, but it's also, Jay, societal belonging. belonging. belonging. Oh, look at you. Oh, wow, it looks like Oh, look at you. Oh, wow, it looks like Oh, look at you. Oh, wow, it looks like you guys had a great trip together. What you guys had a great trip together. What you guys had a great trip together. What a great picture of all you together. Oh, a great picture of all you together. Oh, a great picture of all you together. Oh, and family's great. and family's great. and family's great. And you're now living this lie. I think And you're now living this lie. I think And you're now living this lie. I think that eats you up, but that's societal that eats you up, but that's societal that eats you up, but that's societal yay. yay. yay. That's a hell of a bomb. That's a hell of a bomb. That's a hell of a bomb. >> Yeah, it goes a long way. It's almost >> Yeah, it goes a long way. It's almost >> Yeah, it goes a long way. It's almost like that societal validation covers like that societal validation covers like that societal validation covers over some of those cracks, and that's over some of those cracks, and that's over some of those cracks, and that's why we stay in those places that do so why we stay in those places that do so why we stay in those places that do so much damage to us. much damage to us. much damage to us. >> The shame now is carried internally, >> The shame now is carried internally, >> The shame now is carried internally, right? Versus externally. Okay, I have right? Versus externally. Okay, I have right? Versus externally. Okay, I have nowhere to go on Thanksgiving, and I nowhere to go on Thanksgiving, and I nowhere to go on Thanksgiving, and I don't have really a family anymore, and don't have really a family anymore, and don't have really a family anymore, and the world is wondering like, "Hmm, I the world is wondering like, "Hmm, I the world is wondering like, "Hmm, I wonder why they don't talk to their wonder why they don't talk to their wonder why they don't talk to their family." Cuz their family seems to be family." Cuz their family seems to be family." Cuz their family seems to be getting together, but they're not. You getting together, but they're not. You getting together, but they're not. You have to endure all of that. That's also have to endure all of that. That's also have to endure all of that. That's also an external shame, too. But the staying an external shame, too. But the staying an external shame, too. But the staying in it, that's the internal shame. And in it, that's the internal shame. And in it, that's the internal shame. And that internal shame will eat you up that internal shame will eat you up that internal shame will eat you up alive. alive. alive. >> Whenever I have conversations like >> Whenever I have conversations like >> Whenever I have conversations like these, these, these, and I get to with yourself who sits with and I get to with yourself who sits with and I get to with yourself who sits with people and works through these people and works through these people and works through these challenges with them, challenges with them, challenges with them, and I get a glimpse into what people and I get a glimpse into what people and I get a glimpse into what people struggle with and what's in their mind, struggle with and what's in their mind, struggle with and what's in their mind, it just expands your radius of it just expands your radius of it just expands your radius of compassion. Like it just it just it just compassion. Like it just it just it just compassion. Like it just it just it just makes me go, "Oh my gosh, like people makes me go, "Oh my gosh, like people makes me go, "Oh my gosh, like people are dealing with so much." Like when you are dealing with so much." Like when you are dealing with so much." Like when you have a family member who says, "I don't have a family member who says, "I don't have a family member who says, "I don't want to come to something," usually want to come to something," usually want to come to something," usually everyone in the family is just thinking, everyone in the family is just thinking, everyone in the family is just thinking, "Oh, well, they've been What's wrong "Oh, well, they've been What's wrong "Oh, well, they've been What's wrong with them? Like why are they being with them? Like why are they being with them? Like why are they being difficult for? Like what's the big deal? difficult for? Like what's the big deal? difficult for? Like what's the big deal? We're just all getting together." And We're just all getting together." And We're just all getting together." And it's like you don't recognize that it's like you don't recognize that it's like you don't recognize that there's something that obviously has there's something that obviously has there's something that obviously has struck this person, and whether you struck this person, and whether you struck this person, and whether you think it's big or small, think it's big or small, think it's big or small, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> it's valuable to them, and it feels like >> it's valuable to them, and it feels like >> it's valuable to them, and it feels like the person who did the thing gets away the person who did the thing gets away the person who did the thing gets away with it and never is reprimanded or made with it and never is reprimanded or made with it and never is reprimanded or made accountable, and then everyone else accountable, and then everyone else accountable, and then everyone else who's kind of an innocent bystander is who's kind of an innocent bystander is who's kind of an innocent bystander is actually pointing fingers at the person actually pointing fingers at the person actually pointing fingers at the person who's been wronged and going, "Come on, who's been wronged and going, "Come on, who's been wronged and going, "Come on, stop being difficult. It's just a family stop being difficult. It's just a family stop being difficult. It's just a family dinner." dinner." dinner." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Conversation like this help cuz and I >> Conversation like this help cuz and I >> Conversation like this help cuz and I hope everyone's hope everyone's hope everyone's getting what I'm saying is that if getting what I'm saying is that if getting what I'm saying is that if you're not one of those people who's you're not one of those people who's you're not one of those people who's doing the no contact or doing the doing the no contact or doing the doing the no contact or doing the harming, and you're kind of in the harming, and you're kind of in the harming, and you're kind of in the middle of just hearing your family go middle of just hearing your family go middle of just hearing your family go through stuff, be that curious, through stuff, be that curious, through stuff, be that curious, supportive person who goes, "Hey, what's supportive person who goes, "Hey, what's supportive person who goes, "Hey, what's up? Like why don't you want to come?" up? Like why don't you want to come?" up? Like why don't you want to come?" Because that person has never had that. Because that person has never had that. Because that person has never had that. They've had people either tell them to They've had people either tell them to They've had people either tell them to get over it or move on, or hey, it's get over it or move on, or hey, it's get over it or move on, or hey, it's just a family dinner. just a family dinner. just a family dinner. >> And as I said to you, the the challenge >> And as I said to you, the the challenge >> And as I said to you, the the challenge is that there's there's sort of two is that there's there's sort of two is that there's there's sort of two different ways this happens, maybe even different ways this happens, maybe even different ways this happens, maybe even three if you count the people who are three if you count the people who are three if you count the people who are just avoidant, the people who are just avoidant, the people who are just avoidant, the people who are punitive, and then of course the people punitive, and then of course the people punitive, and then of course the people who've gone through this really who've gone through this really who've gone through this really anguishing path. They'll say, "I anguishing path. They'll say, "I anguishing path. They'll say, "I desperately wanted this to work out." desperately wanted this to work out." desperately wanted this to work out." Every child wants nothing more than for Every child wants nothing more than for Every child wants nothing more than for their parents to be their heroes, and their parents to be their heroes, and their parents to be their heroes, and they will turn themselves upside down they will turn themselves upside down they will turn themselves upside down and inside out and craft false and inside out and craft false and inside out and craft false narratives to turn the people in their narratives to turn the people in their narratives to turn the people in their lives into heroes cuz that's how lives into heroes cuz that's how lives into heroes cuz that's how children survive. But when the children children survive. But when the children children survive. But when the children are harmed in those spaces or not are harmed in those spaces or not are harmed in those spaces or not protected in those spaces, those those protected in those spaces, those those protected in those spaces, those those narratives dog them into adulthood, and narratives dog them into adulthood, and narratives dog them into adulthood, and that sometimes this is it. And I think that sometimes this is it. And I think that sometimes this is it. And I think we should be having a much, much more we should be having a much, much more we should be having a much, much more nuanced, balanced conversation about nuanced, balanced conversation about nuanced, balanced conversation about what no contact is because right now what no contact is because right now what no contact is because right now they're sort of like what's considered they're sort of like what's considered they're sort of like what's considered the societal right way. Not all families the societal right way. Not all families the societal right way. Not all families are good. They really aren't. Many are good. They really aren't. Many are good. They really aren't. Many families are harmful. That and and I I families are harmful. That and and I I families are harmful. That and and I I wish we lived in that candy-coated world wish we lived in that candy-coated world wish we lived in that candy-coated world where all families were safe. They sure where all families were safe. They sure where all families were safe. They sure as hell are not. Many people listening as hell are not. Many people listening as hell are not. Many people listening to this say, "No, they're not." And that to this say, "No, they're not." And that to this say, "No, they're not." And that the complicated process someone goes the complicated process someone goes the complicated process someone goes through. through. through. But ultimately for me as a psychologist, But ultimately for me as a psychologist, But ultimately for me as a psychologist, I can't tell someone to go no contact. I can't tell someone to go no contact. I can't tell someone to go no contact. It's a decision they make for It's a decision they make for It's a decision they make for themselves. And that at best as as themselves. And that at best as as themselves. And that at best as as therapists, we we hold their hand. Good therapists, we we hold their hand. Good therapists, we we hold their hand. Good therapy is when a person is making therapy is when a person is making therapy is when a person is making choice for themselves as uncomfortable choice for themselves as uncomfortable choice for themselves as uncomfortable as it is. Ultimately, the parent can't as it is. Ultimately, the parent can't as it is. Ultimately, the parent can't swim for the child. The child has to swim for the child. The child has to swim for the child. The child has to swim themselves. The child has to ride swim themselves. The child has to ride swim themselves. The child has to ride the bike themselves. The client has to the bike themselves. The client has to the bike themselves. The client has to feel that they've made this decision feel that they've made this decision feel that they've made this decision themselves as terrified as they are and themselves as terrified as they are and themselves as terrified as they are and live it. And I'm going to tell you now, live it. And I'm going to tell you now, live it. And I'm going to tell you now, I've to see in my practice, granted I I've to see in my practice, granted I I've to see in my practice, granted I focus on a unique area of the focus on a unique area of the focus on a unique area of the narcissistic relationship, the vast narcissistic relationship, the vast narcissistic relationship, the vast majority of people I've seen make no majority of people I've seen make no majority of people I've seen make no contact decisions from a place of harm contact decisions from a place of harm contact decisions from a place of harm reduction, safety, protection, all of reduction, safety, protection, all of reduction, safety, protection, all of that. It has ended up quite well for that. It has ended up quite well for that. It has ended up quite well for them. them. them. >> If they're thinking about no contact, >> If they're thinking about no contact, >> If they're thinking about no contact, would you encourage them to think about would you encourage them to think about would you encourage them to think about a time frame rather than forever? a time frame rather than forever? a time frame rather than forever? >> Listen, when people use the word >> Listen, when people use the word >> Listen, when people use the word forever, I always know I'm dealing with forever, I always know I'm dealing with forever, I always know I'm dealing with someone very anxious, right? Because someone very anxious, right? Because someone very anxious, right? Because it's a catastrophizing term. I don't it's a catastrophizing term. I don't it's a catastrophizing term. I don't know what the hell forever is. So, I'm know what the hell forever is. So, I'm know what the hell forever is. So, I'm saying let's let's let's take the word saying let's let's let's take the word saying let's let's let's take the word forever out of our vocabulary. forever out of our vocabulary. forever out of our vocabulary. For the foreseeable future, For the foreseeable future, For the foreseeable future, you're not you're not going to have you're not you're not going to have you're not you're not going to have contact with this person. And you can contact with this person. And you can contact with this person. And you can see it sends a lightning there, right? see it sends a lightning there, right? see it sends a lightning there, right? Like it's not like cuz forever feels so Like it's not like cuz forever feels so Like it's not like cuz forever feels so so big. But for now when you're not so big. But for now when you're not so big. But for now when you're not you're not going back and forth, you're you're not going back and forth, you're you're not going back and forth, you're not responding and there is often a go not responding and there is often a go not responding and there is often a go in the devices and you block the in the devices and you block the in the devices and you block the capacity. I know in my case when I tried capacity. I know in my case when I tried capacity. I know in my case when I tried to go no contact, then other family to go no contact, then other family to go no contact, then other family members were getting in there trying to members were getting in there trying to members were getting in there trying to contact me on behalf of that person. contact me on behalf of that person. contact me on behalf of that person. Then I had to go and block and then I Then I had to go and block and then I Then I had to go and block and then I came to find out that you could contact came to find out that you could contact came to find out that you could contact me on my computer when I thought I'd me on my computer when I thought I'd me on my computer when I thought I'd blocked your number on my phone. It's blocked your number on my phone. It's blocked your number on my phone. It's like that's a glitch. And then it's the like that's a glitch. And then it's the like that's a glitch. And then it's the emails and then you start realizing, emails and then you start realizing, emails and then you start realizing, "Wow, there's a lot of ways to contact "Wow, there's a lot of ways to contact "Wow, there's a lot of ways to contact me." me." me." >> You have to meander. Sometimes people >> You have to meander. Sometimes people >> You have to meander. Sometimes people will send you a letter by mail, you will send you a letter by mail, you will send you a letter by mail, you know. know. know. You become much more discerning on which You become much more discerning on which You become much more discerning on which phone numbers you pick up. It's phone numbers you pick up. It's phone numbers you pick up. It's It can feel like an onslaught for a It can feel like an onslaught for a It can feel like an onslaught for a while. And many people with whom you go while. And many people with whom you go while. And many people with whom you go no contact with, especially entitlement no contact with, especially entitlement no contact with, especially entitlement is a big pattern. They feel entitled to is a big pattern. They feel entitled to is a big pattern. They feel entitled to you. They feel entitled to an you. They feel entitled to an you. They feel entitled to an explanation. And uh there's a part of me explanation. And uh there's a part of me explanation. And uh there's a part of me that even when I'm hearing a client say that even when I'm hearing a client say that even when I'm hearing a client say it, I'm thinking, "How interesting they it, I'm thinking, "How interesting they it, I'm thinking, "How interesting they want an explanation that they couldn't want an explanation that they couldn't want an explanation that they couldn't figure this out?" figure this out?" figure this out?" I have to tell you, Jay, and this is not I have to tell you, Jay, and this is not I have to tell you, Jay, and this is not a frequent circumstance I've seen, but a frequent circumstance I've seen, but a frequent circumstance I've seen, but it does happen and I really feel for it does happen and I really feel for it does happen and I really feel for people who are going through this. They people who are going through this. They people who are going through this. They will say somebody went no contact with will say somebody went no contact with will say somebody went no contact with me and I have no idea why they did it. me and I have no idea why they did it. me and I have no idea why they did it. They'll say literally, "I have no idea. They'll say literally, "I have no idea. They'll say literally, "I have no idea. One day, they just dropped out of my One day, they just dropped out of my One day, they just dropped out of my life." I have a situation like that in life." I have a situation like that in life." I have a situation like that in my own life where someone went no my own life where someone went no my own life where someone went no contact with me and we had one last contact with me and we had one last contact with me and we had one last weird conversation weird conversation weird conversation where literally it was, where literally it was, where literally it was, "You are never to get into touch with me "You are never to get into touch with me "You are never to get into touch with me again. How could you have done this? I again. How could you have done this? I again. How could you have done this? I told you not to do the what the thing I told you not to do the what the thing I told you not to do the what the thing I did." did." did." >> They said it to you. >> They said it to you. >> They said it to you. >> Yeah. I can literally tell you the I was >> Yeah. I can literally tell you the I was >> Yeah. I can literally tell you the I was on the 10 freeway. Like it's so clear to on the 10 freeway. Like it's so clear to on the 10 freeway. Like it's so clear to me cuz it was such an destabilizing me cuz it was such an destabilizing me cuz it was such an destabilizing conversation. conversation. conversation. And I never heard from them again. And I never heard from them again. And I never heard from them again. It's what is now we're in 2026? It was It's what is now we're in 2026? It was It's what is now we're in 2026? It was at least 2014. And this was a person I at least 2014. And this was a person I at least 2014. And this was a person I was tight with, right? I will go to my was tight with, right? I will go to my was tight with, right? I will go to my grave not knowing what exactly happened. grave not knowing what exactly happened. grave not knowing what exactly happened. I have no doubt that this person has a I have no doubt that this person has a I have no doubt that this person has a very clearly constructed very clearly constructed very clearly constructed >> But that doesn't make you a narcissist, >> But that doesn't make you a narcissist, >> But that doesn't make you a narcissist, yeah. yeah. yeah. >> I know it I don't think I'm [laughter] >> I know it I don't think I'm [laughter] >> I know it I don't think I'm [laughter] in though. That's up for debate, I'm in though. That's up for debate, I'm in though. That's up for debate, I'm sure by some people, maybe by her even. sure by some people, maybe by her even. sure by some people, maybe by her even. >> Yeah. That's what's so interesting, >> Yeah. That's what's so interesting, >> Yeah. That's what's so interesting, right? Like it's like how do you know right? Like it's like how do you know right? Like it's like how do you know whether the story you're crafting about whether the story you're crafting about whether the story you're crafting about someone is true or not? Because it's someone is true or not? Because it's someone is true or not? Because it's true in your head. true in your head. true in your head. >> I'll be frank with you. >> I'll be frank with you. >> I'll be frank with you. Jay, if for this person if they felt my Jay, if for this person if they felt my Jay, if for this person if they felt my life feels safer, better, stronger life feels safer, better, stronger life feels safer, better, stronger without Ramani in it, then I say go with without Ramani in it, then I say go with without Ramani in it, then I say go with God. God. God. To me, the only win I think in the world To me, the only win I think in the world To me, the only win I think in the world is that people feel safe in their bodies is that people feel safe in their bodies is that people feel safe in their bodies and their psyche keys and their souls and their psyche keys and their souls and their psyche keys and their souls and they can express themselves. The and they can express themselves. The and they can express themselves. The thing I'll never understand what I did, thing I'll never understand what I did, thing I'll never understand what I did, right? I have a hint of it, but it right? I have a hint of it, but it right? I have a hint of it, but it seemed like a strange thing to be upset seemed like a strange thing to be upset seemed like a strange thing to be upset about and I knew there was other things about and I knew there was other things about and I knew there was other things happening in this person's life. Sadly, happening in this person's life. Sadly, happening in this person's life. Sadly, subsequently I came to find out that subsequently I came to find out that subsequently I came to find out that this person's life had fallen apart in this person's life had fallen apart in this person's life had fallen apart in many ways. So they might have had some many ways. So they might have had some many ways. So they might have had some sort of I don't know some other issues sort of I don't know some other issues sort of I don't know some other issues going on. But I also don't think I can going on. But I also don't think I can going on. But I also don't think I can be so superior and say, "Oh, maybe she be so superior and say, "Oh, maybe she be so superior and say, "Oh, maybe she had a breakdown." Maybe I did do had a breakdown." Maybe I did do had a breakdown." Maybe I did do something that offended her. something that offended her. something that offended her. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't understand it, which probably >> I don't understand it, which probably >> I don't understand it, which probably makes her think I'm an even worse makes her think I'm an even worse makes her think I'm an even worse person. So I I have no doubt many people person. So I I have no doubt many people person. So I I have no doubt many people have had the experience of someone just have had the experience of someone just have had the experience of someone just cutting it cutting them out. And I think cutting it cutting them out. And I think cutting it cutting them out. And I think that's muddied this conversation because that's muddied this conversation because that's muddied this conversation because there's people out there you and I are there's people out there you and I are there's people out there you and I are both saying here. We've had someone just both saying here. We've had someone just both saying here. We've had someone just poof, disappear and and feel very poof, disappear and and feel very poof, disappear and and feel very absolutely justified in their reason for absolutely justified in their reason for absolutely justified in their reason for not being in touch with us. not being in touch with us. not being in touch with us. People hear this conversation, they say, People hear this conversation, they say, People hear this conversation, they say, "No, people don't just get to disappear "No, people don't just get to disappear "No, people don't just get to disappear from our lives." And I'm like, "Well, from our lives." And I'm like, "Well, from our lives." And I'm like, "Well, apparently they do." apparently they do." apparently they do." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then we have to reckon with what >> And then we have to reckon with what >> And then we have to reckon with what that meant and maybe look inward and it that meant and maybe look inward and it that meant and maybe look inward and it did for me personally. I have to say I did for me personally. I have to say I did for me personally. I have to say I looked inward quite a bit and say looked inward quite a bit and say looked inward quite a bit and say what do I need to monitor about myself? what do I need to monitor about myself? what do I need to monitor about myself? Like cuz I kind of understood what the Like cuz I kind of understood what the Like cuz I kind of understood what the person was saying, but I also kind of person was saying, but I also kind of person was saying, but I also kind of didn't. So, I don't think I was changed didn't. So, I don't think I was changed didn't. So, I don't think I was changed substantially as a person, but it was substantially as a person, but it was substantially as a person, but it was always a bit of a head-scratcher and it always a bit of a head-scratcher and it always a bit of a head-scratcher and it will always be a head-scratcher. will always be a head-scratcher. will always be a head-scratcher. >> When do you know it's time to cut off a >> When do you know it's time to cut off a >> When do you know it's time to cut off a toxic family member? toxic family member? toxic family member? >> I think it's different for everyone, >> I think it's different for everyone, >> I think it's different for everyone, Jay. I don't know that there's a moment Jay. I don't know that there's a moment Jay. I don't know that there's a moment of knowing. of knowing. of knowing. I will say in my particular case there I will say in my particular case there I will say in my particular case there was an episode that happened. A thing was an episode that happened. A thing was an episode that happened. A thing happened that was so reprehensible, but happened that was so reprehensible, but happened that was so reprehensible, but very frankly, very frankly, very frankly, if that reprehensible thing had happened if that reprehensible thing had happened if that reprehensible thing had happened without the context that led up to it, I without the context that led up to it, I without the context that led up to it, I wouldn't have gone no contact. wouldn't have gone no contact. wouldn't have gone no contact. >> Totally. Yeah, yeah. >> Totally. Yeah, yeah. >> Totally. Yeah, yeah. >> So, it wasn't the one event. It was the >> So, it wasn't the one event. It was the >> So, it wasn't the one event. It was the accumulation and this event kind of accumulation and this event kind of accumulation and this event kind of cemented that all those data points up cemented that all those data points up cemented that all those data points up till then were was in fact the thing. till then were was in fact the thing. till then were was in fact the thing. All the times I tried to say, "Maybe All the times I tried to say, "Maybe All the times I tried to say, "Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not." not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not." not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not." Oh, definitely. It may be an event that Oh, definitely. It may be an event that Oh, definitely. It may be an event that was preceded by a lot of other proximate was preceded by a lot of other proximate was preceded by a lot of other proximate events that felt this way. events that felt this way. events that felt this way. It may be that you literally feel like It may be that you literally feel like It may be that you literally feel like you're getting sick. I would also say, you're getting sick. I would also say, you're getting sick. I would also say, Jay, people have to pay attention to Jay, people have to pay attention to Jay, people have to pay attention to what I call the natural experiment. The what I call the natural experiment. The what I call the natural experiment. The natural experiment happens when natural experiment happens when natural experiment happens when something intervenes something intervenes something intervenes and we don't have contact with them. Who and we don't have contact with them. Who and we don't have contact with them. Who knows why? Life goes on and one day you knows why? Life goes on and one day you knows why? Life goes on and one day you lift your head and say, "I haven't lift your head and say, "I haven't lift your head and say, "I haven't talked to them for 6 months talked to them for 6 months talked to them for 6 months and that was actually This has been This and that was actually This has been This and that was actually This has been This has been really nice." has been really nice." has been really nice." And you notice the difference in your And you notice the difference in your And you notice the difference in your life. I'll even give you a small life. I'll even give you a small life. I'll even give you a small example. It was a holiday of some kind, example. It was a holiday of some kind, example. It was a holiday of some kind, I don't know, Thanksgiving or Christmas, I don't know, Thanksgiving or Christmas, I don't know, Thanksgiving or Christmas, something like this. And the very, very something like this. And the very, very something like this. And the very, very problematic person in the family system problematic person in the family system problematic person in the family system was being a little bit petulant and was being a little bit petulant and was being a little bit petulant and tantrumy and decided not to come to the tantrumy and decided not to come to the tantrumy and decided not to come to the main event. I I was like a dinner or main event. I I was like a dinner or main event. I I was like a dinner or something. something. something. And some of the family members were sad. And some of the family members were sad. And some of the family members were sad. They're like, "No, no, you should come." They're like, "No, no, you should come." They're like, "No, no, you should come." And another family member who had And another family member who had And another family member who had ultimately been the person responsible, ultimately been the person responsible, ultimately been the person responsible, I think, for getting them right And I I think, for getting them right And I I think, for getting them right And I said, "They said they don't want to said, "They said they don't want to said, "They said they don't want to come, and let's honor that wish." And come, and let's honor that wish." And come, and let's honor that wish." And they said, "No problem. Okay, you don't they said, "No problem. Okay, you don't they said, "No problem. Okay, you don't have to come." have to come." have to come." They all got together. The group that They all got together. The group that They all got together. The group that got together had the most magnificent got together had the most magnificent got together had the most magnificent time. time. time. Two of them noticed, like, "This is Two of them noticed, like, "This is Two of them noticed, like, "This is amazing." Like amazing." Like amazing." Like and they noticed it was simply and they noticed it was simply and they noticed it was simply that person not being present. that person not being present. that person not being present. It didn't necessarily lead to no It didn't necessarily lead to no It didn't necessarily lead to no contact, but my point about the natural contact, but my point about the natural contact, but my point about the natural experiment is sometimes the world comes experiment is sometimes the world comes experiment is sometimes the world comes together to create a circumstance together to create a circumstance together to create a circumstance and you see the Wow, when they weren't and you see the Wow, when they weren't and you see the Wow, when they weren't at the wedding, it was so much easier. at the wedding, it was so much easier. at the wedding, it was so much easier. When they weren't with at the dinner, it When they weren't with at the dinner, it When they weren't with at the dinner, it was so much easier. When I didn't have was so much easier. When I didn't have was so much easier. When I didn't have to include them in the decision, it went to include them in the decision, it went to include them in the decision, it went like clockwork. You see the differences like clockwork. You see the differences like clockwork. You see the differences when this person isn't around. But also, when this person isn't around. But also, when this person isn't around. But also, by being apart from them, you might say, by being apart from them, you might say, by being apart from them, you might say, "It's funny, I don't feel exhausted when "It's funny, I don't feel exhausted when "It's funny, I don't feel exhausted when I wake up anymore. My stomach isn't I wake up anymore. My stomach isn't I wake up anymore. My stomach isn't hurting me. I'm not getting migraines as hurting me. I'm not getting migraines as hurting me. I'm not getting migraines as much." You may even literally have much." You may even literally have much." You may even literally have changes in your physiology as this changes in your physiology as this changes in your physiology as this stress goes away. You might find that stress goes away. You might find that stress goes away. You might find that you're sharper at work. you're sharper at work. you're sharper at work. But I don't know that there's ever a But I don't know that there's ever a But I don't know that there's ever a moment I think that there is often an moment I think that there is often an moment I think that there is often an episode that makes you say, "Oh, hell episode that makes you say, "Oh, hell episode that makes you say, "Oh, hell no." It's really only people who are no." It's really only people who are no." It's really only people who are more manipulative and petulant and more manipulative and petulant and more manipulative and petulant and really immature really immature really immature that would end it over one episode. that would end it over one episode. that would end it over one episode. Here's the rub though. Here's the Here's the rub though. Here's the Here's the rub though. Here's the problem. problem. problem. Let's say the big event happens, and Let's say the big event happens, and Let's say the big event happens, and that's when you say, "I'm not I'm not that's when you say, "I'm not I'm not that's when you say, "I'm not I'm not going to be in contact with them going to be in contact with them going to be in contact with them anymore." Everyone around you thinks anymore." Everyone around you thinks anymore." Everyone around you thinks it's just the one event. it's just the one event. it's just the one event. They don't realize it was a trajectory They don't realize it was a trajectory They don't realize it was a trajectory of stuff. They'll say, "Oh, come on now. of stuff. They'll say, "Oh, come on now. of stuff. They'll say, "Oh, come on now. You're going to go no contact with You're going to go no contact with You're going to go no contact with someone over one thing?" And they're not someone over one thing?" And they're not someone over one thing?" And they're not able to hear that No, it actually was able to hear that No, it actually was able to hear that No, it actually was about 1,500 things. But this was the about 1,500 things. But this was the about 1,500 things. But this was the This was like It's like the closet rod. This was like It's like the closet rod. This was like It's like the closet rod. I always use that analogy. There's one I always use that analogy. There's one I always use that analogy. There's one last piece of clothing you put on that last piece of clothing you put on that last piece of clothing you put on that closet rod, and it all collapses. It's closet rod, and it all collapses. It's closet rod, and it all collapses. It's not cuz that was a heavy piece of not cuz that was a heavy piece of not cuz that was a heavy piece of clothing. It was just the last piece clothing. It was just the last piece clothing. It was just the last piece that that rod could hold. that that rod could hold. that that rod could hold. >> That is the way to think about it. When >> That is the way to think about it. When >> That is the way to think about it. When I think about it in my life, it's always I think about it in my life, it's always I think about it in my life, it's always been that way. And I I liked your almost been that way. And I I liked your almost been that way. And I I liked your almost step ladder of maybe not, maybe not, step ladder of maybe not, maybe not, step ladder of maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, okay, definitely. Like that's maybe not, okay, definitely. Like that's maybe not, okay, definitely. Like that's the kind of thought process that a the kind of thought process that a the kind of thought process that a rational human being goes through. It's rational human being goes through. It's rational human being goes through. It's like, "No, I don't think it is. No, I'm like, "No, I don't think it is. No, I'm like, "No, I don't think it is. No, I'm giving them grace." And then it's like, giving them grace." And then it's like, giving them grace." And then it's like, "Oh, no, okay, I get it now." "Oh, no, okay, I get it now." "Oh, no, okay, I get it now." >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> What do you say to the people that say, >> What do you say to the people that say, >> What do you say to the people that say, "But they're your family." "But they're your family." "But they're your family." >> This is a challenging question because >> This is a challenging question because >> This is a challenging question because it's culture. I'm South Asian from very it's culture. I'm South Asian from very it's culture. I'm South Asian from very traditional Indian family. I work with a traditional Indian family. I work with a traditional Indian family. I work with a lot of South Asian clients, a lot of lot of South Asian clients, a lot of lot of South Asian clients, a lot of Malaysian clients, a lot of client Malaysian clients, a lot of client Malaysian clients, a lot of client Latino clients like where family is like Latino clients like where family is like Latino clients like where family is like family. It's capital F, it's a blood family. It's capital F, it's a blood family. It's capital F, it's a blood thicker than water construct. thicker than water construct. thicker than water construct. Well, we've we've hit it from different Well, we've we've hit it from different Well, we've we've hit it from different directions. You know, one of which is directions. You know, one of which is directions. You know, one of which is it's really luck who your family is. it's really luck who your family is. it's really luck who your family is. This idea that somehow this group of This idea that somehow this group of This idea that somehow this group of people Imagine you get on an airplane people Imagine you get on an airplane people Imagine you get on an airplane flight. Like all these people supposed flight. Like all these people supposed flight. Like all these people supposed to be your best friends? It's luck that to be your best friends? It's luck that to be your best friends? It's luck that you walked on that one you bought that you walked on that one you bought that you walked on that one you bought that ticket not the other. No. These are just ticket not the other. No. These are just ticket not the other. No. These are just people I'm going to be with the next 5 people I'm going to be with the next 5 people I'm going to be with the next 5 hours and then bye. I'm not going to see hours and then bye. I'm not going to see hours and then bye. I'm not going to see you again. It is a bit of a luck and you again. It is a bit of a luck and you again. It is a bit of a luck and some people have bad luck. You you it's some people have bad luck. You you it's some people have bad luck. You you it's it's sort of a random sequence. But the it's sort of a random sequence. But the it's sort of a random sequence. But the issue of family, I think more than issue of family, I think more than issue of family, I think more than anything it's to hold space for that. To anything it's to hold space for that. To anything it's to hold space for that. To not say, "Oh, who cares if they're a not say, "Oh, who cares if they're a not say, "Oh, who cares if they're a family?" They are your family and this family?" They are your family and this family?" They are your family and this construct matters. For some people it's construct matters. For some people it's construct matters. For some people it's a core value. For other people it's been a core value. For other people it's been a core value. For other people it's been an organizing element for them. For many an organizing element for them. For many an organizing element for them. For many people it's the idea if you're not part people it's the idea if you're not part people it's the idea if you're not part of a family system, you're actually of a family system, you're actually of a family system, you're actually deeply unsafe. And so if you're unsafe deeply unsafe. And so if you're unsafe deeply unsafe. And so if you're unsafe without a family system and if your without a family system and if your without a family system and if your family system is unsafe, again, you're family system is unsafe, again, you're family system is unsafe, again, you're sort of in this damned if you do, damned sort of in this damned if you do, damned sort of in this damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of catch-22. So it's if you don't kind of catch-22. So it's if you don't kind of catch-22. So it's to hold space, empathy, awareness that to hold space, empathy, awareness that to hold space, empathy, awareness that family does matter, making this decision family does matter, making this decision family does matter, making this decision all the more difficult. And then it's all the more difficult. And then it's all the more difficult. And then it's paying attention to how it you know, how paying attention to how it you know, how paying attention to how it you know, how are you those differences, those natural are you those differences, those natural are you those differences, those natural experiments? How are you feeling when experiments? How are you feeling when experiments? How are you feeling when you're not with them? I never hold a no you're not with them? I never hold a no you're not with them? I never hold a no contact agenda for any human being on contact agenda for any human being on contact agenda for any human being on the planet. I really don't. I'm like, the planet. I really don't. I'm like, the planet. I really don't. I'm like, "You're going to get there or never get "You're going to get there or never get "You're going to get there or never get there on your own time. When that there on your own time. When that there on your own time. When that pressure gets lifted for a person, it pressure gets lifted for a person, it pressure gets lifted for a person, it opens up a lot more decision-making opens up a lot more decision-making opens up a lot more decision-making because then they can say, "Yes, this is because then they can say, "Yes, this is because then they can say, "Yes, this is family and yes, this is harmful." family and yes, this is harmful." family and yes, this is harmful." But the very first time a person's able But the very first time a person's able But the very first time a person's able to look at another human being, family to look at another human being, family to look at another human being, family member or not, member or not, member or not, and recognize that and recognize that and recognize that "I don't feel safe with them." Meaning, "I don't feel safe with them." Meaning, "I don't feel safe with them." Meaning, "I don't feel like I can show up as "I don't feel like I can show up as "I don't feel like I can show up as myself. I have to be walking on myself. I have to be walking on myself. I have to be walking on eggshells around them. I am happy when eggshells around them. I am happy when eggshells around them. I am happy when they're gone. I'm relieved when they're they're gone. I'm relieved when they're they're gone. I'm relieved when they're gone." gone." gone." Once you actually have that own say Once you actually have that own say Once you actually have that own say words to yourself, maybe not to anyone words to yourself, maybe not to anyone words to yourself, maybe not to anyone else, it opens up something different in else, it opens up something different in else, it opens up something different in you because now you're willing to you because now you're willing to you because now you're willing to acknowledge that. Like it's it's so acknowledge that. Like it's it's so acknowledge that. Like it's it's so you're caring for yourself by you're caring for yourself by you're caring for yourself by acknowledging something doesn't feel acknowledging something doesn't feel acknowledging something doesn't feel good. Because I think that if we go too good. Because I think that if we go too good. Because I think that if we go too quickly with like, "Oh my gosh, they're quickly with like, "Oh my gosh, they're quickly with like, "Oh my gosh, they're right. They're they're my family." We're right. They're they're my family." We're right. They're they're my family." We're going too quickly. It's just sitting going too quickly. It's just sitting going too quickly. It's just sitting with this doesn't feel good. That's step with this doesn't feel good. That's step with this doesn't feel good. That's step one. one. one. And then you're going to give yourself And then you're going to give yourself And then you're going to give yourself permission to feel that. And then over permission to feel that. And then over permission to feel that. And then over time, time, time, you will recognize that yes, they are you will recognize that yes, they are you will recognize that yes, they are family and they're unsafe. More than one family and they're unsafe. More than one family and they're unsafe. More than one thing can be true at the same time. thing can be true at the same time. thing can be true at the same time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And how to navigate why there are all >> And how to navigate why there are all >> And how to navigate why there are all these things true at the same time. How these things true at the same time. How these things true at the same time. How do you make a decision that works for do you make a decision that works for do you make a decision that works for you? And like it can be a stop-start. you? And like it can be a stop-start. you? And like it can be a stop-start. You go out of contact for a little You go out of contact for a little You go out of contact for a little while. You find that too difficult. You while. You find that too difficult. You while. You find that too difficult. You have children. You want them to meet have children. You want them to meet have children. You want them to meet some members of the family. You're back some members of the family. You're back some members of the family. You're back in contact again. And it kind of again, in contact again. And it kind of again, in contact again. And it kind of again, there there can be an ebb and flow to there there can be an ebb and flow to there there can be an ebb and flow to it. But it's a very, very complicated it. But it's a very, very complicated it. But it's a very, very complicated conversation for many people in many conversation for many people in many conversation for many people in many parts of the world, no contact is simply parts of the world, no contact is simply parts of the world, no contact is simply not an option. And so, I always say that not an option. And so, I always say that not an option. And so, I always say that you can then it's a concept I wrote you can then it's a concept I wrote you can then it's a concept I wrote about in the book too called soul about in the book too called soul about in the book too called soul distancing. That your physical body can distancing. That your physical body can distancing. That your physical body can be present and you can nod politely and be present and you can nod politely and be present and you can nod politely and you can talk about the weather and you you can talk about the weather and you you can talk about the weather and you can say, "What a nice dress you have." can say, "What a nice dress you have." can say, "What a nice dress you have." But that most important part of But that most important part of But that most important part of yourself, you don't have to abandon it. yourself, you don't have to abandon it. yourself, you don't have to abandon it. You can actually be a really protective You can actually be a really protective You can actually be a really protective custodian. "How are you doing? What's custodian. "How are you doing? What's custodian. "How are you doing? What's new with you?" "Not much. Yeah, I get new with you?" "Not much. Yeah, I get new with you?" "Not much. Yeah, I get up, I go to work, everything's fine. You up, I go to work, everything's fine. You up, I go to work, everything's fine. You can really do that all the while being can really do that all the while being can really do that all the while being consciously aware of like, oh, you don't consciously aware of like, oh, you don't consciously aware of like, oh, you don't get to look into this. This isn't safe. get to look into this. This isn't safe. get to look into this. This isn't safe. But so you can find those ways to But so you can find those ways to But so you can find those ways to navigate, but this only works, only navigate, but this only works, only navigate, but this only works, only works if you take care of yourself, works if you take care of yourself, works if you take care of yourself, which means you prepare yourself ahead which means you prepare yourself ahead which means you prepare yourself ahead of time, you give yourself rest after of time, you give yourself rest after of time, you give yourself rest after time, you maintain healthy connected time, you maintain healthy connected time, you maintain healthy connected spaces in your life, you have meaningful spaces in your life, you have meaningful spaces in your life, you have meaningful and purposeful activities in your life. and purposeful activities in your life. and purposeful activities in your life. You have to live give yourself You have to live give yourself You have to live give yourself permission to live a whole life if permission to live a whole life if permission to live a whole life if you're going to keep participating in you're going to keep participating in you're going to keep participating in those spaces. I view it as a almost like those spaces. I view it as a almost like those spaces. I view it as a almost like a spiritual form of no contact. Like, a spiritual form of no contact. Like, a spiritual form of no contact. Like, you don't get to be with all of me. you don't get to be with all of me. you don't get to be with all of me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think that can be one way people >> And I think that can be one way people >> And I think that can be one way people can navigate these family spaces. But can navigate these family spaces. But can navigate these family spaces. But for those who really did feel like for those who really did feel like for those who really did feel like physically violated in their family physically violated in their family physically violated in their family spaces, that may not be enough. And spaces, that may not be enough. And spaces, that may not be enough. And sometimes it's it's the that person who sometimes it's it's the that person who sometimes it's it's the that person who goes no contact is the first person who goes no contact is the first person who goes no contact is the first person who breaks an intergenerational cycle, too. breaks an intergenerational cycle, too. breaks an intergenerational cycle, too. They may be the most powerful warrior in They may be the most powerful warrior in They may be the most powerful warrior in that system enough is enough. And that that system enough is enough. And that that system enough is enough. And that may sometimes be, for example, I've seen may sometimes be, for example, I've seen may sometimes be, for example, I've seen this in family systems where people came this in family systems where people came this in family systems where people came out about their sexuality, [snorts] out about their sexuality, [snorts] out about their sexuality, [snorts] about gender, and they faced a lot of about gender, and they faced a lot of about gender, and they faced a lot of pushback and they're like, you would pushback and they're like, you would pushback and they're like, you would rather I do not live in accordance with rather I do not live in accordance with rather I do not live in accordance with who I am, and that process of coming out who I am, and that process of coming out who I am, and that process of coming out is where people will lose people, and is where people will lose people, and is where people will lose people, and then that concept of chosen family, then that concept of chosen family, then that concept of chosen family, which the LGBTQ community, that was which the LGBTQ community, that was which the LGBTQ community, that was their term where so many people came out their term where so many people came out their term where so many people came out and were rejected and hurt and and were rejected and hurt and and were rejected and hurt and abandoned. And so I think that there's abandoned. And so I think that there's abandoned. And so I think that there's something to listen to that sometimes at something to listen to that sometimes at something to listen to that sometimes at those moments of absolutely a person those moments of absolutely a person those moments of absolutely a person who goes through that saying, this is who goes through that saying, this is who goes through that saying, this is who I am, and they're told, oh well, who I am, and they're told, oh well, who I am, and they're told, oh well, we're not going to love you, that's we're not going to love you, that's we're not going to love you, that's another process we can watch from, and another process we can watch from, and another process we can watch from, and many people painfully having to go no many people painfully having to go no many people painfully having to go no contact at those times, too. contact at those times, too. contact at those times, too. >> Yeah, I was going to ask you, what do >> Yeah, I was going to ask you, what do >> Yeah, I was going to ask you, what do you do if you can't go no contact? And you do if you can't go no contact? And you do if you can't go no contact? And you answered some of the options there you answered some of the options there you answered some of the options there because I always talk to people that I because I always talk to people that I because I always talk to people that I love the soul distancing idea, and I love the soul distancing idea, and I love the soul distancing idea, and I often talk to people about the idea of often talk to people about the idea of often talk to people about the idea of for every one person in your life that for every one person in your life that for every one person in your life that is like that, if you can't get away from is like that, if you can't get away from is like that, if you can't get away from them, make sure there's three other them, make sure there's three other them, make sure there's three other people that are people you do open your people that are people you do open your people that are people you do open your soul to, that you soul to, that you soul to, that you can open your heart to, that you can be can open your heart to, that you can be can open your heart to, that you can be authentic with, because authentic with, because authentic with, because yes, I appreciate that there may be a yes, I appreciate that there may be a yes, I appreciate that there may be a family member that you can't do that family member that you can't do that family member that you can't do that around, but you can choose three other around, but you can choose three other around, but you can choose three other people, friends who become family, that people, friends who become family, that people, friends who become family, that you allow yourself to be yourself you allow yourself to be yourself you allow yourself to be yourself around, and that around, and that around, and that outweighs that that three to one ratio outweighs that that three to one ratio outweighs that that three to one ratio kind of helps with the pressure of that kind of helps with the pressure of that kind of helps with the pressure of that one person. one person. one person. >> And it's challenging, you know, because >> And it's challenging, you know, because >> And it's challenging, you know, because if you look at all the great trauma if you look at all the great trauma if you look at all the great trauma writers out there, Judith Herman, you writers out there, Judith Herman, you writers out there, Judith Herman, you know, Gabor, all of them, trauma that know, Gabor, all of them, trauma that know, Gabor, all of them, trauma that happens in relationship can only be happens in relationship can only be happens in relationship can only be healed in relationship. And whether that healed in relationship. And whether that healed in relationship. And whether that relationship is therapy, whether that relationship is therapy, whether that relationship is therapy, whether that relationship is trusted friends, this is relationship is trusted friends, this is relationship is trusted friends, this is not a walk you can walk alone. People not a walk you can walk alone. People not a walk you can walk alone. People have to become safe again. have to become safe again. have to become safe again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's one of the challenges of >> And that's one of the challenges of >> And that's one of the challenges of having to remain in contact with someone having to remain in contact with someone having to remain in contact with someone harmful. People remain unsafe, so you do harmful. People remain unsafe, so you do harmful. People remain unsafe, so you do need counterweights to that. And it is need counterweights to that. And it is need counterweights to that. And it is hard, because once a person's been hard, because once a person's been hard, because once a person's been through harm, through a family, through through harm, through a family, through through harm, through a family, through people who should have been trusted, people who should have been trusted, people who should have been trusted, what gets lost is discernment, it's a what gets lost is discernment, it's a what gets lost is discernment, it's a sense of nobody can be trusted, or I sense of nobody can be trusted, or I sense of nobody can be trusted, or I don't know how to trust people, and don't know how to trust people, and don't know how to trust people, and above all else, I can't trust myself. above all else, I can't trust myself. above all else, I can't trust myself. And that can make it hard to build And that can make it hard to build And that can make it hard to build healthy social contacts outside of a healthy social contacts outside of a healthy social contacts outside of a system where you're feeling compelled system where you're feeling compelled system where you're feeling compelled that maybe I should go no contact, but I that maybe I should go no contact, but I that maybe I should go no contact, but I can't. But I really think though part of can't. But I really think though part of can't. But I really think though part of this is because we shame people who go this is because we shame people who go this is because we shame people who go no contact, instead of really hearing no contact, instead of really hearing no contact, instead of really hearing their story, and often how painful it their story, and often how painful it their story, and often how painful it is, and even yes, sometimes it's a is, and even yes, sometimes it's a is, and even yes, sometimes it's a mystery, and an understanding that mystery, and an understanding that mystery, and an understanding that sometimes yes, it's punitive, but to sometimes yes, it's punitive, but to sometimes yes, it's punitive, but to understand the backstory on it, so then understand the backstory on it, so then understand the backstory on it, so then we can think about it more clearly. we can think about it more clearly. we can think about it more clearly. >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you a couple of >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you a couple of >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you a couple of quick segments on what no contact is and quick segments on what no contact is and quick segments on what no contact is and what it isn't. So, what's the difference what it isn't. So, what's the difference what it isn't. So, what's the difference between no contact and having a fallout? between no contact and having a fallout? between no contact and having a fallout? >> Having a fallout might be that they go >> Having a fallout might be that they go >> Having a fallout might be that they go for a little while not talking to each for a little while not talking to each for a little while not talking to each other, because they did have a big other, because they did have a big other, because they did have a big conflict, and it's almost like they need conflict, and it's almost like they need conflict, and it's almost like they need to regulate, they need to reintegrate, to regulate, they need to reintegrate, to regulate, they need to reintegrate, but there's an understanding that you but there's an understanding that you but there's an understanding that you will come back together when cooler will come back together when cooler will come back together when cooler heads prevail, right? Whereas no contact heads prevail, right? Whereas no contact heads prevail, right? Whereas no contact tends to be something that's coming more tends to be something that's coming more tends to be something that's coming more from one person. Generally again, the from one person. Generally again, the from one person. Generally again, the kind of protective no contact I'm kind of protective no contact I'm kind of protective no contact I'm talking about, it's definitely something talking about, it's definitely something talking about, it's definitely something where it's somebody who's been through where it's somebody who's been through where it's somebody who's been through is trying to protect themself. It's is trying to protect themself. It's is trying to protect themself. It's usually a very one person in a usually a very one person in a usually a very one person in a relationship. The other person may not relationship. The other person may not relationship. The other person may not be experiencing that need at all. It's be experiencing that need at all. It's be experiencing that need at all. It's really the person being harmed. And really the person being harmed. And really the person being harmed. And whereas a fallout is usually a a product whereas a fallout is usually a a product whereas a fallout is usually a a product of a conflict where people are trying to of a conflict where people are trying to of a conflict where people are trying to regulate and find a way to talk about regulate and find a way to talk about regulate and find a way to talk about it. That's That feels different to me. it. That's That feels different to me. it. That's That feels different to me. >> What's the difference between going no >> What's the difference between going no >> What's the difference between going no contact and silent treatment? contact and silent treatment? contact and silent treatment? >> Ah, so the silent Oh, the almighty >> Ah, so the silent Oh, the almighty >> Ah, so the silent Oh, the almighty silent treatment. Silent treatment is a silent treatment. Silent treatment is a silent treatment. Silent treatment is a is is aggression. is is aggression. is is aggression. You know, we don't think of it that way, You know, we don't think of it that way, You know, we don't think of it that way, but it really is. Some people argue that but it really is. Some people argue that but it really is. Some people argue that people do the silent treatment because people do the silent treatment because people do the silent treatment because they're so overwhelmed by an they're so overwhelmed by an they're so overwhelmed by an interpersonal situation that they shut interpersonal situation that they shut interpersonal situation that they shut down. down. down. That's not how I understand the silent That's not how I understand the silent That's not how I understand the silent treatment. Silent treatment is typically treatment. Silent treatment is typically treatment. Silent treatment is typically a tactic. a tactic. a tactic. You're not doing what I want? You're not doing what I want? You're not doing what I want? I'm not going to talk to you. I mean, as I'm not going to talk to you. I mean, as I'm not going to talk to you. I mean, as far as like you could be dinner with a far as like you could be dinner with a far as like you could be dinner with a group and say, group and say, group and say, "Could you ask Jay to pass the sugar to "Could you ask Jay to pass the sugar to "Could you ask Jay to pass the sugar to me?" You know, it's that you know, it I me?" You know, it's that you know, it I me?" You know, it's that you know, it I am not going to you're not going to get am not going to you're not going to get am not going to you're not going to get a response from me. It's manipulative a response from me. It's manipulative a response from me. It's manipulative cuz what it typically does, especially cuz what it typically does, especially cuz what it typically does, especially in things like family systems, is it in things like family systems, is it in things like family systems, is it results in the win for the silent results in the win for the silent results in the win for the silent treatment person is the other person treatment person is the other person treatment person is the other person breaks. And often may even apologize breaks. And often may even apologize breaks. And often may even apologize just to keep the communication just to keep the communication just to keep the communication happening. In silent treatment, the happening. In silent treatment, the happening. In silent treatment, the person's often still very present in person's often still very present in person's often still very present in your life. They're like in the same your life. They're like in the same your life. They're like in the same house or in the same office or coming to house or in the same office or coming to house or in the same office or coming to the same things. They're just not the same things. They're just not the same things. They're just not talking to you. talking to you. talking to you. >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And and >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And and >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And and what's the difference between no contact what's the difference between no contact what's the difference between no contact and then not talking to someone using it and then not talking to someone using it and then not talking to someone using it as leverage? Or is that the same as as leverage? Or is that the same as as leverage? Or is that the same as >> that's like the that's the same as >> that's like the that's the same as >> that's like the that's the same as silent treatment. Yes, it's silent silent treatment. Yes, it's silent silent treatment. Yes, it's silent treatment. Yes, it's there's something treatment. Yes, it's there's something treatment. Yes, it's there's something coercive about it. And many people say, coercive about it. And many people say, coercive about it. And many people say, especially when their parents use the especially when their parents use the especially when their parents use the silent treatment, young people will say silent treatment, young people will say silent treatment, young people will say when they were a child, their mother or when they were a child, their mother or when they were a child, their mother or their father would use no contact and their father would use no contact and their father would use no contact and they would say, "I wish they screamed at they would say, "I wish they screamed at they would say, "I wish they screamed at me because at least they were looking at me because at least they were looking at me because at least they were looking at me but and they would share these me but and they would share these me but and they would share these heartbreaking stories of how they would heartbreaking stories of how they would heartbreaking stories of how they would leave their parents notes saying, 'I leave their parents notes saying, 'I leave their parents notes saying, 'I will do anything you ask. I'll do will do anything you ask. I'll do will do anything you ask. I'll do anything else.'" And what is that parent anything else.'" And what is that parent anything else.'" And what is that parent doing? They're literally shaping this doing? They're literally shaping this doing? They're literally shaping this child to be fully subjugated. The child child to be fully subjugated. The child child to be fully subjugated. The child is so terrified of the abandonment of is so terrified of the abandonment of is so terrified of the abandonment of silent treatment. And many people silent treatment. And many people silent treatment. And many people experience the silent treatment as an experience the silent treatment as an experience the silent treatment as an abandonment that we almost get trained abandonment that we almost get trained abandonment that we almost get trained to capitulate to a harmful person who to capitulate to a harmful person who to capitulate to a harmful person who realizes the powerful quality of that realizes the powerful quality of that realizes the powerful quality of that weaponry and other people don't notice weaponry and other people don't notice weaponry and other people don't notice it. But when someone's screaming at it. But when someone's screaming at it. But when someone's screaming at someone, we know that's all that's all someone, we know that's all that's all someone, we know that's all that's all right. But when someone's silent right. But when someone's silent right. But when someone's silent treatmenting, again with kids, it is a treatmenting, again with kids, it is a treatmenting, again with kids, it is a devastating approach with kids cuz the devastating approach with kids cuz the devastating approach with kids cuz the child feels so abandoned which brings up child feels so abandoned which brings up child feels so abandoned which brings up so much terror for them. so much terror for them. so much terror for them. >> Are we getting better at setting >> Are we getting better at setting >> Are we getting better at setting boundaries or are we losing our ability boundaries or are we losing our ability boundaries or are we losing our ability to repair relationships? to repair relationships? to repair relationships? >> We're getting worse at our ability to >> We're getting worse at our ability to >> We're getting worse at our ability to repair. Boundaries is a complicated repair. Boundaries is a complicated repair. Boundaries is a complicated conversation to me conversation to me conversation to me because of especially the space I work because of especially the space I work because of especially the space I work in. in. in. When you try to set a boundary, for When you try to set a boundary, for When you try to set a boundary, for example, in a narcissistic relationship, example, in a narcissistic relationship, example, in a narcissistic relationship, it's like self-harm at that point, it's like self-harm at that point, it's like self-harm at that point, right? You're almost I always say to right? You're almost I always say to right? You're almost I always say to people, "When you try to set a boundary people, "When you try to set a boundary people, "When you try to set a boundary with a narcissistic person, you've with a narcissistic person, you've with a narcissistic person, you've actually just harmed yourself cuz you've actually just harmed yourself cuz you've actually just harmed yourself cuz you've told them what upsets you." told them what upsets you." told them what upsets you." >> Yeah. So you've given [clears throat] >> Yeah. So you've given [clears throat] >> Yeah. So you've given [clears throat] them the playbook. Do this and now I'm them the playbook. Do this and now I'm them the playbook. Do this and now I'm really going to get upset. Don't do really going to get upset. Don't do really going to get upset. Don't do that. that. that. >> That's so dangerous. >> That's so dangerous. >> That's so dangerous. >> To me, boundary setting is a very >> To me, boundary setting is a very >> To me, boundary setting is a very internal process. Once you understand internal process. Once you understand internal process. Once you understand how these relationships work, to how these relationships work, to how these relationships work, to understand how much time you can endure understand how much time you can endure understand how much time you can endure this for, what are your no-fly zones? If this for, what are your no-fly zones? If this for, what are your no-fly zones? If this comes up or they do this and that's this comes up or they do this and that's this comes up or they do this and that's my sign to sort of disengage, step back, my sign to sort of disengage, step back, my sign to sort of disengage, step back, and exit cuz there's really no way to and exit cuz there's really no way to and exit cuz there's really no way to healthfully communicate about this, healthfully communicate about this, healthfully communicate about this, especially with someone who's trying to especially with someone who's trying to especially with someone who's trying to bait you. But I have to say in the same bait you. But I have to say in the same bait you. But I have to say in the same breath, we're also not that good at breath, we're also not that good at breath, we're also not that good at repair. I think there's a lot of ego in repair. I think there's a lot of ego in repair. I think there's a lot of ego in the world right now. I got to make my the world right now. I got to make my the world right now. I got to make my point. I've got to be right. I don't I point. I've got to be right. I don't I point. I've got to be right. I don't I think platforms like social media think platforms like social media think platforms like social media haven't helped like people want to be haven't helped like people want to be haven't helped like people want to be right. And I also think part of it this right. And I also think part of it this right. And I also think part of it this is one of my personal Dr. Romani is one of my personal Dr. Romani is one of my personal Dr. Romani theories. I don't know if it's true, but theories. I don't know if it's true, but theories. I don't know if it's true, but I'm going to with it, is that the I'm going to with it, is that the I'm going to with it, is that the world's so litigious, especially in the world's so litigious, especially in the world's so litigious, especially in the United States. Everyone's afraid of United States. Everyone's afraid of United States. Everyone's afraid of being sued, so you don't want to admit being sued, so you don't want to admit being sued, so you don't want to admit you did anything wrong. If you admit, you did anything wrong. If you admit, you did anything wrong. If you admit, well then, you see? So, that seeps into well then, you see? So, that seeps into well then, you see? So, that seeps into the ground water of interpersonal the ground water of interpersonal the ground water of interpersonal relationships. Admit nothing. You know, relationships. Admit nothing. You know, relationships. Admit nothing. You know, you don't That puts you on your back you don't That puts you on your back you don't That puts you on your back foot. You lose your power. As soon as foot. You lose your power. As soon as foot. You lose your power. As soon as you bring the word power into a you bring the word power into a you bring the word power into a relationship, it's no longer about love. relationship, it's no longer about love. relationship, it's no longer about love. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, that's it. You've lost the >> You know, that's it. You've lost the >> You know, that's it. You've lost the love part of it. That love and power love part of it. That love and power love part of it. That love and power don't get to go in the same sentence. I don't get to go in the same sentence. I don't get to go in the same sentence. I think that because of this, this need to think that because of this, this need to think that because of this, this need to be right, the challenges with be right, the challenges with be right, the challenges with accountability. In fact, I think people accountability. In fact, I think people accountability. In fact, I think people feeling feeling feeling When people have even been hurt, they When people have even been hurt, they When people have even been hurt, they want to get power, right? That's how want to get power, right? That's how want to get power, right? That's how they feel safe again. So, all of those they feel safe again. So, all of those they feel safe again. So, all of those things mean that we are really bad at things mean that we are really bad at things mean that we are really bad at repair, cuz the first part of repair is repair, cuz the first part of repair is repair, cuz the first part of repair is to be accountable, and people aren't to be accountable, and people aren't to be accountable, and people aren't good at being accountable. And some good at being accountable. And some good at being accountable. And some people are afraid if they are people are afraid if they are people are afraid if they are accountable, they'll be rejected. accountable, they'll be rejected. accountable, they'll be rejected. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, there's so many other dynamics kind >> So, there's so many other dynamics kind >> So, there's so many other dynamics kind of woven in there that I think we're of woven in there that I think we're of woven in there that I think we're terrible at repair. And when we can do terrible at repair. And when we can do terrible at repair. And when we can do it, it's actually profoundly, it, it's actually profoundly, it, it's actually profoundly, profoundly powerful. And I again, I'm profoundly powerful. And I again, I'm profoundly powerful. And I again, I'm saying I I screwed up with a friend back saying I I screwed up with a friend back saying I I screwed up with a friend back in the summer when I was going through in the summer when I was going through in the summer when I was going through the worst time of my life, I didn't have the worst time of my life, I didn't have the worst time of my life, I didn't have no right to speak like that. I am so no right to speak like that. I am so no right to speak like that. I am so sorry. I'm not even And And the other sorry. I'm not even And And the other sorry. I'm not even And And the other part of it, repair, we were talking part of it, repair, we were talking part of it, repair, we were talking about before, you can't make excuses. about before, you can't make excuses. about before, you can't make excuses. So, you I could have easily said, I did So, you I could have easily said, I did So, you I could have easily said, I did this cuz of this, this, and this. You this cuz of this, this, and this. You this cuz of this, this, and this. You may get to that at some point, but that may get to that at some point, but that may get to that at some point, but that can't be part of the apology. I'm so can't be part of the apology. I'm so can't be part of the apology. I'm so sorry I spoke to you in a way that you sorry I spoke to you in a way that you sorry I spoke to you in a way that you did not deserve. I am so sorry I hurt did not deserve. I am so sorry I hurt did not deserve. I am so sorry I hurt you. And I haven't done it since. So, in you. And I haven't done it since. So, in you. And I haven't done it since. So, in that way, that repair has worked for us. that way, that repair has worked for us. that way, that repair has worked for us. And she said, she was smart enough to And she said, she was smart enough to And she said, she was smart enough to say, "You're going through the worst say, "You're going through the worst say, "You're going through the worst time of your life. I don't expect you to time of your life. I don't expect you to time of your life. I don't expect you to be graceful." So, you see, it's a dance. be graceful." So, you see, it's a dance. be graceful." So, you see, it's a dance. You have both players have to be in it. You have both players have to be in it. You have both players have to be in it. That's a healthy relationship. But That's a healthy relationship. But That's a healthy relationship. But healthy relationships have ruptures. We healthy relationships have ruptures. We healthy relationships have ruptures. We repaired. Now, it's even It's Now, we repaired. Now, it's even It's Now, we repaired. Now, it's even It's Now, we can trust each other even more is the can trust each other even more is the can trust each other even more is the point. So, point. So, point. So, I think that the issue is we just don't I think that the issue is we just don't I think that the issue is we just don't learn. I think actually little kids are learn. I think actually little kids are learn. I think actually little kids are better at repair than anyone. They end better at repair than anyone. They end better at repair than anyone. They end school and they're taught like school and they're taught like school and they're taught like >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> you can't just take the the chalk from >> you can't just take the the chalk from >> you can't just take the the chalk from from him and you have to say I did take from him and you have to say I did take from him and you have to say I did take the chalk roughly and then the child the chalk roughly and then the child the chalk roughly and then the child will parrot the teacher. Somewhere will parrot the teacher. Somewhere will parrot the teacher. Somewhere around puberty we lose it. And then it around puberty we lose it. And then it around puberty we lose it. And then it it floats into ego. it floats into ego. it floats into ego. >> I think the biggest mistake we make in >> I think the biggest mistake we make in >> I think the biggest mistake we make in relationships is we think we can cut relationships is we think we can cut relationships is we think we can cut someone off, but the real reason is someone off, but the real reason is someone off, but the real reason is because we don't want to have a because we don't want to have a because we don't want to have a difficult conversation. difficult conversation. difficult conversation. >> Sometimes. Sometimes. >> Sometimes. Sometimes. >> Sometimes. Sometimes. >> we don't want to have the tough >> we don't want to have the tough >> we don't want to have the tough conversation and I'm not talking about conversation and I'm not talking about conversation and I'm not talking about all the established reasons we've talked all the established reasons we've talked all the established reasons we've talked about and we know that people don't do about and we know that people don't do about and we know that people don't do no contact in a flippant way, but no contact in a flippant way, but no contact in a flippant way, but sometimes we've chosen not to repair sometimes we've chosen not to repair sometimes we've chosen not to repair because we just don't want to have a because we just don't want to have a because we just don't want to have a difficult difficult difficult >> and there's the avoidance. That's that >> and there's the avoidance. That's that >> and there's the avoidance. That's that avoidance piece and I think that's why avoidance piece and I think that's why avoidance piece and I think that's why that avoidance piece is often overlaid that avoidance piece is often overlaid that avoidance piece is often overlaid on the no contact conversation. on the no contact conversation. on the no contact conversation. Because that is the case. I think Because that is the case. I think Because that is the case. I think they're two different issues, but I do they're two different issues, but I do they're two different issues, but I do think that in some cases people say this think that in some cases people say this think that in some cases people say this is so uncomfortable for me. is so uncomfortable for me. is so uncomfortable for me. I'm willing to lose this relationship I'm willing to lose this relationship I'm willing to lose this relationship than to feel this uncomfortable. than to feel this uncomfortable. than to feel this uncomfortable. And that's a tragedy because then you're And that's a tragedy because then you're And that's a tragedy because then you're missing the end the bounty of human missing the end the bounty of human missing the end the bounty of human experience, but experience, but experience, but listen, I can understand it though for listen, I can understand it though for listen, I can understand it though for people who grew up in spaces where people who grew up in spaces where people who grew up in spaces where conflict was downright dangerous, people conflict was downright dangerous, people conflict was downright dangerous, people were brandishing firearms or yelling or were brandishing firearms or yelling or were brandishing firearms or yelling or screaming or there's domestic violence. screaming or there's domestic violence. screaming or there's domestic violence. I can easily understand where that I can easily understand where that I can easily understand where that avoidance comes from and then that avoidance comes from and then that avoidance comes from and then that becomes really deep-seated trauma becomes really deep-seated trauma becomes really deep-seated trauma informed work on what conflict isn't informed work on what conflict isn't informed work on what conflict isn't always terrifying, but to debride that always terrifying, but to debride that always terrifying, but to debride that from how the body hurts it from it. You from how the body hurts it from it. You from how the body hurts it from it. You it takes a minute. it takes a minute. it takes a minute. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Have you ever experienced people who've Have you ever experienced people who've Have you ever experienced people who've gone no contact and then experienced a gone no contact and then experienced a gone no contact and then experienced a lot of grief and regret? lot of grief and regret? lot of grief and regret? >> People who go no contact, especially if >> People who go no contact, especially if >> People who go no contact, especially if there's not a lot of you know, clanging there's not a lot of you know, clanging there's not a lot of you know, clanging and yelling and I'm not I'm never going and yelling and I'm not I'm never going and yelling and I'm not I'm never going to not talking to you anymore. So to not talking to you anymore. So to not talking to you anymore. So there's no clear demarcation point. Most there's no clear demarcation point. Most there's no clear demarcation point. Most cases I'm not hearing this. I'm not cases I'm not hearing this. I'm not cases I'm not hearing this. I'm not hearing people six months in saying in hearing people six months in saying in hearing people six months in saying in fact they're saying fact they're saying fact they're saying >> I feel better. >> I feel better. >> I feel better. >> I'm relieved. I'm really relieved. You >> I'm relieved. I'm really relieved. You >> I'm relieved. I'm really relieved. You know, it's pretty rare. More what I've know, it's pretty rare. More what I've know, it's pretty rare. More what I've heard more of Jay is people have gone no heard more of Jay is people have gone no heard more of Jay is people have gone no contact and someone gets sick. contact and someone gets sick. contact and someone gets sick. Or is dying. Or is dying. Or is dying. And their bigger question is And their bigger question is And their bigger question is I don't get a second chance at this. Am I don't get a second chance at this. Am I don't get a second chance at this. Am I going to regret not making an attempt I going to regret not making an attempt I going to regret not making an attempt at a goodbye? at a goodbye? at a goodbye? No one can answer that question for you, No one can answer that question for you, No one can answer that question for you, but you're right. You do only have one but you're right. You do only have one but you're right. You do only have one crack at this. And in those cases, some crack at this. And in those cases, some crack at this. And in those cases, some people have rolled up to check in and people have rolled up to check in and people have rolled up to check in and say their goodbyes and the person who say their goodbyes and the person who say their goodbyes and the person who was dying was just as ordinary and mean was dying was just as ordinary and mean was dying was just as ordinary and mean as ever. And you know what people said, as ever. And you know what people said, as ever. And you know what people said, they said, "I wasn't upset. In many they said, "I wasn't upset. In many they said, "I wasn't upset. In many ways, I listened to my heart. I showed ways, I listened to my heart. I showed ways, I listened to my heart. I showed up and it only confirmed the decision I up and it only confirmed the decision I up and it only confirmed the decision I made for the last 20 years." made for the last 20 years." made for the last 20 years." >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> In some cases, there is a moment, >> In some cases, there is a moment, >> In some cases, there is a moment, there's a connective moment. I think there's a connective moment. I think there's a connective moment. I think that's pretty rare, you know, that there that's pretty rare, you know, that there that's pretty rare, you know, that there is I'm so sorry for everything I did. We is I'm so sorry for everything I did. We is I'm so sorry for everything I did. We people want the deathbed confession. people want the deathbed confession. people want the deathbed confession. It's pretty rare in these cases. It's pretty rare in these cases. It's pretty rare in these cases. Sometimes people go expecting nothing Sometimes people go expecting nothing Sometimes people go expecting nothing but to say, "I can't do this again, so but to say, "I can't do this again, so but to say, "I can't do this again, so at least let me show up." But by and at least let me show up." But by and at least let me show up." But by and large, once people get to that initial large, once people get to that initial large, once people get to that initial can I I can By the time people really can I I can By the time people really can I I can By the time people really make the protective no contact decision, make the protective no contact decision, make the protective no contact decision, they have been harmed so many ways that they have been harmed so many ways that they have been harmed so many ways that it is relief. It's relief. it is relief. It's relief. it is relief. It's relief. >> Flipping the roles, >> Flipping the roles, >> Flipping the roles, if you're the person who's been cut off if you're the person who's been cut off if you're the person who's been cut off and you genuinely want to repair the and you genuinely want to repair the and you genuinely want to repair the relationship and now recognize that relationship and now recognize that relationship and now recognize that you've you've you've made mistakes, made mistakes, made mistakes, what's the right way to go about it? what's the right way to go about it? what's the right way to go about it? >> We can't attach our actions to outcomes, >> We can't attach our actions to outcomes, >> We can't attach our actions to outcomes, meaning that meaning that meaning that you may say, "I really want to let them you may say, "I really want to let them you may say, "I really want to let them know. I see everything I did. know. I see everything I did. know. I see everything I did. I and I'll do it all the right ways. I and I'll do it all the right ways. I and I'll do it all the right ways. Don't excuse. Don't defend yourself." Do Don't excuse. Don't defend yourself." Do Don't excuse. Don't defend yourself." Do you know all do it right like take you know all do it right like take you know all do it right like take accountability. accountability. accountability. Figure out a way to get it to that Figure out a way to get it to that Figure out a way to get it to that person, whatever that may be. person, whatever that may be. person, whatever that may be. And then that's it. It's almost like And then that's it. It's almost like And then that's it. It's almost like you've put something, you've you know, you've put something, you've you know, you've put something, you've you know, thrown a feather to the universe and you thrown a feather to the universe and you thrown a feather to the universe and you just don't know where it's going to just don't know where it's going to just don't know where it's going to land. You definitely don't want to be land. You definitely don't want to be land. You definitely don't want to be insistent. You don't want to be feel insistent. You don't want to be feel insistent. You don't want to be feel entitled to a response. You don't want entitled to a response. You don't want entitled to a response. You don't want to keep attempting to reach the person to keep attempting to reach the person to keep attempting to reach the person through different ways and haranguing through different ways and haranguing through different ways and haranguing them. That's That's just going to them. That's That's just going to them. That's That's just going to re-perpetuate re-perpetuate re-perpetuate the whole problem that there was the whole problem that there was the whole problem that there was initially. But, I mean, you can find initially. But, I mean, you can find initially. But, I mean, you can find that way to get the communication out that way to get the communication out that way to get the communication out there and see how it lands. And you know there and see how it lands. And you know there and see how it lands. And you know what? Then this is the hardest thing what? Then this is the hardest thing what? Then this is the hardest thing that can happen as part of the human that can happen as part of the human that can happen as part of the human experience. experience. experience. A person may receive that. A person may receive that. A person may receive that. They may even feel at peace from hearing They may even feel at peace from hearing They may even feel at peace from hearing that, and they may never tell you. that, and they may never tell you. that, and they may never tell you. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You have to keep it real that maybe all >> You have to keep it real that maybe all >> You have to keep it real that maybe all you've done is try to put that repair in you've done is try to put that repair in you've done is try to put that repair in the world, and maybe the net result of the world, and maybe the net result of the world, and maybe the net result of that is you've relieved something in that is you've relieved something in that is you've relieved something in someone else, but you may not ever be someone else, but you may not ever be someone else, but you may not ever be privy to that. privy to that. privy to that. >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> Is forgiveness always healthy? >> No. >> No. >> No. You know how I feel about that. Hell no. You know how I feel about that. Hell no. You know how I feel about that. Hell no. And I'm so tired of this fetishization And I'm so tired of this fetishization And I'm so tired of this fetishization of forgiveness. There's a of forgiveness. There's a of forgiveness. There's a voluminous psychological literature, voluminous psychological literature, voluminous psychological literature, spiritual literature, that shows it's spiritual literature, that shows it's spiritual literature, that shows it's good. good. good. But then there's other studies on the But then there's other studies on the But then there's other studies on the shelf that people don't always pull off shelf that people don't always pull off shelf that people don't always pull off that show that when forgiveness is that show that when forgiveness is that show that when forgiveness is repeatedly offered in situations where repeatedly offered in situations where repeatedly offered in situations where the harmful behavior is repeated, the the harmful behavior is repeated, the the harmful behavior is repeated, the forgiver actually experiences negative forgiver actually experiences negative forgiver actually experiences negative psychological consequences. psychological consequences. psychological consequences. I think the challenges with forgiveness I think the challenges with forgiveness I think the challenges with forgiveness is people do it from a place of fear. is people do it from a place of fear. is people do it from a place of fear. When they do it from a place of being When they do it from a place of being When they do it from a place of being shamed, you'll see in spiritual shamed, you'll see in spiritual shamed, you'll see in spiritual communities all the time, "What is wrong communities all the time, "What is wrong communities all the time, "What is wrong with you? You're dark-hearted. How dare with you? You're dark-hearted. How dare with you? You're dark-hearted. How dare you don't forgive? It will lighten you." you don't forgive? It will lighten you." you don't forgive? It will lighten you." Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. I have seen people heal brilliantly I have seen people heal brilliantly I have seen people heal brilliantly without forgiving, and if anything, without forgiving, and if anything, without forgiving, and if anything, they'd feel like forgiving this person they'd feel like forgiving this person they'd feel like forgiving this person feels like one more form of feels like one more form of feels like one more form of self-abandonment. Cuz the fact is, Jay, self-abandonment. Cuz the fact is, Jay, self-abandonment. Cuz the fact is, Jay, in many cases of trauma, abuse, in many cases of trauma, abuse, in many cases of trauma, abuse, relational trauma, what happened relational trauma, what happened relational trauma, what happened has changed that they the person being has changed that they the person being has changed that they the person being harmed, their emotional DNA forever. harmed, their emotional DNA forever. harmed, their emotional DNA forever. It is a heavy burden that has to be It is a heavy burden that has to be It is a heavy burden that has to be carried that affects how a person trusts carried that affects how a person trusts carried that affects how a person trusts the world, how they go into future the world, how they go into future the world, how they go into future relationships, how they even trust relationships, how they even trust relationships, how they even trust themselves. It's a effing legacy that a themselves. It's a effing legacy that a themselves. It's a effing legacy that a person carries their whole lives. person carries their whole lives. person carries their whole lives. That may not always be forgivable. And That may not always be forgivable. And That may not always be forgivable. And forgiving someone is not going to press forgiving someone is not going to press forgiving someone is not going to press the accelerator on healing. Some people the accelerator on healing. Some people the accelerator on healing. Some people will say, will say, will say, "I don't even know that I ever forgave "I don't even know that I ever forgave "I don't even know that I ever forgave them. I'm now indifferent to the whole them. I'm now indifferent to the whole them. I'm now indifferent to the whole thing. I've done my work. I'm in a thing. I've done my work. I'm in a thing. I've done my work. I'm in a different place. Forgive? Maybe, maybe different place. Forgive? Maybe, maybe different place. Forgive? Maybe, maybe not." And I think one of the challenges not." And I think one of the challenges not." And I think one of the challenges is, cuz I've had this debate with these is, cuz I've had this debate with these is, cuz I've had this debate with these people. They say, "I think you and I are people. They say, "I think you and I are people. They say, "I think you and I are I think you are talking about I think you are talking about I think you are talking about forgiveness, but we're not using the forgiveness, but we're not using the forgiveness, but we're not using the same word." same word." same word." One of the dictionary definition of One of the dictionary definition of One of the dictionary definition of forgiveness is to cease to feel forgiveness is to cease to feel forgiveness is to cease to feel resentment. resentment. resentment. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I don't know how many people who forgive >> I don't know how many people who forgive >> I don't know how many people who forgive actually have ceased to feel resentment. actually have ceased to feel resentment. actually have ceased to feel resentment. I don't. I don't. I don't. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I I can think of a handful of >> I I can think of a handful of >> I I can think of a handful of relationships in my life where the wrong relationships in my life where the wrong relationships in my life where the wrong the wronging changed me forever. the wronging changed me forever. the wronging changed me forever. Changed me forever. Changed me forever. Changed me forever. I go through the world differently. I go through the world differently. I go through the world differently. I don't forgive that. I don't forgive that. I don't forgive that. I will I I resent that. I resent how I I will I I resent that. I resent how I I will I I resent that. I resent how I still sometimes still sometimes still sometimes have to go through the world feel unsafe have to go through the world feel unsafe have to go through the world feel unsafe in the world. No. in the world. No. in the world. No. And I'm healing just fine. And I'm healing just fine. And I'm healing just fine. And I and I've seen I I countless And I and I've seen I I countless And I and I've seen I I countless clients have said, "That moment of you clients have said, "That moment of you clients have said, "That moment of you and some other author saying, we don't and some other author saying, we don't and some other author saying, we don't need to forgive, was an absolute pivot need to forgive, was an absolute pivot need to forgive, was an absolute pivot point." Because what happens when you point." Because what happens when you point." Because what happens when you make it forgiveness, all your damn work make it forgiveness, all your damn work make it forgiveness, all your damn work is going into forgiving a perpetrator is going into forgiving a perpetrator is going into forgiving a perpetrator instead of doing the healing work inside instead of doing the healing work inside instead of doing the healing work inside yourself. yourself. yourself. You get there, don't get there. You can You get there, don't get there. You can You get there, don't get there. You can heal if you forgive, you can heal if you heal if you forgive, you can heal if you heal if you forgive, you can heal if you don't forgive. But if it's performative don't forgive. But if it's performative don't forgive. But if it's performative and it's being done in the name of and it's being done in the name of and it's being done in the name of self-abandonment, it is going to set you self-abandonment, it is going to set you self-abandonment, it is going to set you back. back. back. >> When it all comes down to like, "Yeah, >> When it all comes down to like, "Yeah, >> When it all comes down to like, "Yeah, forgive them and move on and heal." And forgive them and move on and heal." And forgive them and move on and heal." And like you said, it feels it can feel too like you said, it feels it can feel too like you said, it feels it can feel too early, it can feel too forced, it can early, it can feel too forced, it can early, it can feel too forced, it can feel too feel too feel too holier-than-thou. Like, I talk about it holier-than-thou. Like, I talk about it holier-than-thou. Like, I talk about it all the time with all the time with all the time with some things I've been wronged with where some things I've been wronged with where some things I've been wronged with where I'm like, I was recently in India with I'm like, I was recently in India with I'm like, I was recently in India with my spiritual teacher and I was speaking my spiritual teacher and I was speaking my spiritual teacher and I was speaking before where was speaking to a group of before where was speaking to a group of before where was speaking to a group of people. people. people. And [snorts] And [snorts] And [snorts] I quoted him in something I'd learned I quoted him in something I'd learned I quoted him in something I'd learned from him. from him. from him. And then he very expertly referenced it And then he very expertly referenced it And then he very expertly referenced it but then redefined it on stage without but then redefined it on stage without but then redefined it on stage without making me feel bad about myself, which making me feel bad about myself, which making me feel bad about myself, which is very sweet of him. But and he's so is very sweet of him. But and he's so is very sweet of him. But and he's so learned. He's, you know, learned. He's, you know, learned. He's, you know, mid-70s and you know, he's been a monk mid-70s and you know, he's been a monk mid-70s and you know, he's been a monk for like 50 years or something. So for like 50 years or something. So for like 50 years or something. So has has more wisdom than I could ever has has more wisdom than I could ever has has more wisdom than I could ever even try to gather, but also has this even try to gather, but also has this even try to gather, but also has this beautiful way of helping me in the beautiful way of helping me in the beautiful way of helping me in the moment without but So I always thought moment without but So I always thought moment without but So I always thought that spiritual gratitude was this idea that spiritual gratitude was this idea that spiritual gratitude was this idea that you had to be grateful for that you had to be grateful for that you had to be grateful for everything that happened to you. And I everything that happened to you. And I everything that happened to you. And I always struggled with that idea because always struggled with that idea because always struggled with that idea because I couldn't and and I would try and I I couldn't and and I would try and I I couldn't and and I would try and I really pushed myself and I would do the really pushed myself and I would do the really pushed myself and I would do the spiritual work and I'd be like, I can't spiritual work and I'd be like, I can't spiritual work and I'd be like, I can't be grateful for that. Like that doesn't be grateful for that. Like that doesn't be grateful for that. Like that doesn't make any sense. I would wonder why I make any sense. I would wonder why I make any sense. I would wonder why I would struggle with it and sometimes you would struggle with it and sometimes you would struggle with it and sometimes you can beat yourself up spiritually about can beat yourself up spiritually about can beat yourself up spiritually about it. You can feel like you're not good it. You can feel like you're not good it. You can feel like you're not good enough in the community, whatever it may enough in the community, whatever it may enough in the community, whatever it may be. be. be. He said, you don't have to be grateful He said, you don't have to be grateful He said, you don't have to be grateful for everything that happened to you. for everything that happened to you. for everything that happened to you. You can only be grateful for what you You can only be grateful for what you You can only be grateful for what you have left after what happened to you. have left after what happened to you. have left after what happened to you. And that slight adjustment has like And that slight adjustment has like And that slight adjustment has like changed my I'm like, oh, of course that changed my I'm like, oh, of course that changed my I'm like, oh, of course that makes sense. makes sense. makes sense. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I can be grateful for the fact that >> I can be grateful for the fact that >> I can be grateful for the fact that after that happened to me, I'm still after that happened to me, I'm still after that happened to me, I'm still alive and breathing. I've got this, I've alive and breathing. I've got this, I've alive and breathing. I've got this, I've got that. I don't have to be grateful got that. I don't have to be grateful got that. I don't have to be grateful >> for the experience. >> for the experience. >> for the experience. >> for the experience of the event. >> for the experience of the event. >> for the experience of the event. >> Yes. Correct. Correct. >> Yes. Correct. Correct. >> Yes. Correct. Correct. >> it sounds like common sense when you say >> it sounds like common sense when you say >> it sounds like common sense when you say it, but to me it was like a remarkable it, but to me it was like a remarkable it, but to me it was like a remarkable and I only learned this like 3 months and I only learned this like 3 months and I only learned this like 3 months ago. And it's like light bulb moment. I ago. And it's like light bulb moment. I ago. And it's like light bulb moment. I was like, oh, wow, like I've just been was like, oh, wow, like I've just been was like, oh, wow, like I've just been trying to walk down the wrong road. And trying to walk down the wrong road. And trying to walk down the wrong road. And then that's how I feel about then that's how I feel about then that's how I feel about forgiveness. Like forgiveness is this forgiveness. Like forgiveness is this forgiveness. Like forgiveness is this idea of like you at one point will feel idea of like you at one point will feel idea of like you at one point will feel so much love for this person and you're so much love for this person and you're so much love for this person and you're like completely like and I'm like, I'm like completely like and I'm like, I'm like completely like and I'm like, I'm not sure that Well, I've never seen it. not sure that Well, I've never seen it. not sure that Well, I've never seen it. I would love It's a beautiful idea. It's I would love It's a beautiful idea. It's I would love It's a beautiful idea. It's a beautiful concept. But I've never seen a beautiful concept. But I've never seen a beautiful concept. But I've never seen it as love. Maybe someone even gets to it as love. Maybe someone even gets to it as love. Maybe someone even gets to the point of neutrality. Maybe. But love the point of neutrality. Maybe. But love the point of neutrality. Maybe. But love for that person, like that's God level for that person, like that's God level for that person, like that's God level stuff and you know, stuff and you know, stuff and you know, >> We are mere mortals, right? And I think >> We are mere mortals, right? And I think >> We are mere mortals, right? And I think that that there is I think that the that that there is I think that the that that there is I think that the challenge is and I've seen this with challenge is and I've seen this with challenge is and I've seen this with people, people who are survivors of people, people who are survivors of people, people who are survivors of domestic assault, sexual assault, domestic assault, sexual assault, domestic assault, sexual assault, emotional abuse. No, emotional abuse. No, emotional abuse. No, absolutely not. Because you know why? absolutely not. Because you know why? absolutely not. Because you know why? They need to encode within themselves They need to encode within themselves They need to encode within themselves that this all of the this that that that this all of the this that that that this all of the this that that person was is harmful. Cuz that's how we person was is harmful. Cuz that's how we person was is harmful. Cuz that's how we as human beings can be safer, but still as human beings can be safer, but still as human beings can be safer, but still be able to find safety in other human be able to find safety in other human be able to find safety in other human beings. beings. beings. To When I tell you what a razor's edge To When I tell you what a razor's edge To When I tell you what a razor's edge that is to balance on, this is why that is to balance on, this is why that is to balance on, this is why trauma healing is so challenging. But trauma healing is so challenging. But trauma healing is so challenging. But finding love in harmful experiences, no. finding love in harmful experiences, no. finding love in harmful experiences, no. Yes, love for yourself that you were so Yes, love for yourself that you were so Yes, love for yourself that you were so strong that you could get up and and get strong that you could get up and and get strong that you could get up and and get out of bed the next morning. That's what out of bed the next morning. That's what out of bed the next morning. That's what I tell my clients, like, you got out of I tell my clients, like, you got out of I tell my clients, like, you got out of bed today. Like, go you. bed today. Like, go you. bed today. Like, go you. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh Dr. Romany, I want to end with some Uh Dr. Romany, I want to end with some Uh Dr. Romany, I want to end with some real-life scenarios that we got sent in. real-life scenarios that we got sent in. real-life scenarios that we got sent in. So, we're going to get your reactions to So, we're going to get your reactions to So, we're going to get your reactions to these. So, these. So, these. So, a parent says, "I have no idea why my a parent says, "I have no idea why my a parent says, "I have no idea why my child stopped talking to me, even though child stopped talking to me, even though child stopped talking to me, even though there were years of conflict." there were years of conflict." there were years of conflict." Why do some parents genuinely believe Why do some parents genuinely believe Why do some parents genuinely believe this? And what should the child do if this? And what should the child do if this? And what should the child do if the parent really has no idea why they the parent really has no idea why they the parent really has no idea why they went no contact? went no contact? went no contact? >> And this is from the the person asking >> And this is from the the person asking >> And this is from the the person asking this is the parent. this is the parent. this is the parent. >> Uh the person asking this >> Uh the person asking this >> Uh the person asking this is No, it's it's the person who's gone is No, it's it's the person who's gone is No, it's it's the person who's gone no contact because they're asking why do no contact because they're asking why do no contact because they're asking why do some parents genuinely believe this? And some parents genuinely believe this? And some parents genuinely believe this? And what should the child do if the parent what should the child do if the parent what should the child do if the parent really has no idea why they go no really has no idea why they go no really has no idea why they go no contact? contact? contact? >> So, remember what I was saying before is >> So, remember what I was saying before is >> So, remember what I was saying before is that this idea is that there are people that this idea is that there are people that this idea is that there are people out there who say, "I genuinely don't out there who say, "I genuinely don't out there who say, "I genuinely don't know." And I think they genuinely do. know." And I think they genuinely do. know." And I think they genuinely do. And I think in other versions, they And I think in other versions, they And I think in other versions, they can't It's not they generally can't, can't It's not they generally can't, can't It's not they generally can't, they generally won't. They won't see they generally won't. They won't see they generally won't. They won't see what it is, right? what it is, right? what it is, right? And whether they think that their simple And whether they think that their simple And whether they think that their simple apology should have been fine or they apology should have been fine or they apology should have been fine or they should be forgiven all their their should be forgiven all their their should be forgiven all their their transgressions, whatever it may be. transgressions, whatever it may be. transgressions, whatever it may be. The challenge for an adult, and I'm The challenge for an adult, and I'm The challenge for an adult, and I'm assuming this is an adult child, the assuming this is an adult child, the assuming this is an adult child, the challenge for an adult child in one of challenge for an adult child in one of challenge for an adult child in one of these situations these situations these situations is that the temptation is to sit down is that the temptation is to sit down is that the temptation is to sit down and lay out a reckoning of everything and lay out a reckoning of everything and lay out a reckoning of everything this parent did wrong. It's going to get this parent did wrong. It's going to get this parent did wrong. It's going to get absolutely nowhere. And I think that in absolutely nowhere. And I think that in absolutely nowhere. And I think that in a situation like that where it's very a situation like that where it's very a situation like that where it's very clear clear clear that the transgressions are many and that the transgressions are many and that the transgressions are many and discernible. discernible. discernible. That the fact that they can't see it is That the fact that they can't see it is That the fact that they can't see it is probably a contributor to why you've probably a contributor to why you've probably a contributor to why you've gone no contact because people can mess gone no contact because people can mess gone no contact because people can mess up as I've been saying and say that was up as I've been saying and say that was up as I've been saying and say that was not cool. If the parent had said I am so not cool. If the parent had said I am so not cool. If the parent had said I am so sorry we are no contact and I fully sorry we are no contact and I fully sorry we are no contact and I fully understand how years of da da da da da understand how years of da da da da da understand how years of da da da da da da have resulted in this. I'd really da have resulted in this. I'd really da have resulted in this. I'd really like to redouble my efforts to make like to redouble my efforts to make like to redouble my efforts to make change in these spaces because I miss change in these spaces because I miss change in these spaces because I miss you. That's a different conversation. you. That's a different conversation. you. That's a different conversation. This parent's like I don't get this. If This parent's like I don't get this. If This parent's like I don't get this. If they don't get this, you ain't going to they don't get this, you ain't going to they don't get this, you ain't going to be the one to turn on the lights. be the one to turn on the lights. be the one to turn on the lights. >> Well said. Really helpful to just know >> Well said. Really helpful to just know >> Well said. Really helpful to just know where where where you're likely to stand. Okay, someone you're likely to stand. Okay, someone you're likely to stand. Okay, someone goes no contact with one parent and goes no contact with one parent and goes no contact with one parent and suddenly siblings, aunts, even suddenly siblings, aunts, even suddenly siblings, aunts, even grandparents start pressuring them to grandparents start pressuring them to grandparents start pressuring them to fix it. How should someone handle that fix it. How should someone handle that fix it. How should someone handle that kind of family backlash? kind of family backlash? kind of family backlash? >> This is a tough one because this is what >> This is a tough one because this is what >> This is a tough one because this is what I'm saying. You It's very difficult to I'm saying. You It's very difficult to I'm saying. You It's very difficult to isolate and go no contact with just one isolate and go no contact with just one isolate and go no contact with just one family member, especially if the family family member, especially if the family family member, especially if the family system is is relatively close-linked. system is is relatively close-linked. system is is relatively close-linked. Within that group of grandmothers and Within that group of grandmothers and Within that group of grandmothers and aunts and siblings and all of that, even aunts and siblings and all of that, even aunts and siblings and all of that, even that group is heterogeneous. Some of that group is heterogeneous. Some of that group is heterogeneous. Some of those folks are safer and maybe more those folks are safer and maybe more those folks are safer and maybe more psychologically aware than others. If psychologically aware than others. If psychologically aware than others. If there's even one person in that group there's even one person in that group there's even one person in that group you feel that you could actually have a you feel that you could actually have a you feel that you could actually have a safe conversation with without it safe conversation with without it safe conversation with without it becoming again a laundry list, but becoming again a laundry list, but becoming again a laundry list, but rather say rather say rather say after years of this this after years of this this after years of this this I don't feel safe and I have found that I don't feel safe and I have found that I don't feel safe and I have found that I I just I can't do it anymore and maybe I I just I can't do it anymore and maybe I I just I can't do it anymore and maybe give a sprinkling of reasons and so this give a sprinkling of reasons and so this give a sprinkling of reasons and so this was not this was not a decision I came was not this was not a decision I came was not this was not a decision I came to easily. Did all the things we've to easily. Did all the things we've to easily. Did all the things we've talked about. talked about. talked about. So please understand where I'm coming So please understand where I'm coming So please understand where I'm coming with this and I'm the first to with this and I'm the first to with this and I'm the first to understand how difficult and understand how difficult and understand how difficult and inconvenient and everything this is for inconvenient and everything this is for inconvenient and everything this is for everyone. I love you dearly. I didn't everyone. I love you dearly. I didn't everyone. I love you dearly. I didn't want that, but I also can't do this. All want that, but I also can't do this. All want that, but I also can't do this. All right? Hopefully there's one person. right? Hopefully there's one person. right? Hopefully there's one person. Here's where we go. There's no pain-free Here's where we go. There's no pain-free Here's where we go. There's no pain-free path. There's going to be no version of path. There's going to be no version of path. There's going to be no version of this where everyone in the family signs this where everyone in the family signs this where everyone in the family signs off on it. There's just it just doesn't off on it. There's just it just doesn't off on it. There's just it just doesn't happen that way. So, if you could have happen that way. So, if you could have happen that way. So, if you could have that one person who can say that one person who can say that one person who can say even one person who bears witness and even one person who bears witness and even one person who bears witness and gets it, even if it's still chaotic, you gets it, even if it's still chaotic, you gets it, even if it's still chaotic, you might still you may feel a little less might still you may feel a little less might still you may feel a little less like you're losing your mind and at like you're losing your mind and at like you're losing your mind and at least feel heard, but I I think that least feel heard, but I I think that least feel heard, but I I think that that pressure you have to have sort of that pressure you have to have sort of that pressure you have to have sort of few stock answers like, "I hear you. I few stock answers like, "I hear you. I few stock answers like, "I hear you. I love you and I understand why this is love you and I understand why this is love you and I understand why this is hard for you, but please also understand hard for you, but please also understand hard for you, but please also understand why this would be hard for me. I can't I why this would be hard for me. I can't I why this would be hard for me. I can't I can't do this, but say I I thank you for can't do this, but say I I thank you for can't do this, but say I I thank you for reaching out and I get it and I know reaching out and I get it and I know reaching out and I get it and I know this is hard." You can give an empathic this is hard." You can give an empathic this is hard." You can give an empathic response. The thing I would discourage response. The thing I would discourage response. The thing I would discourage people from doing is turning this into a people from doing is turning this into a people from doing is turning this into a battle every time. battle every time. battle every time. >> Okay, well said. All right, this one. A >> Okay, well said. All right, this one. A >> Okay, well said. All right, this one. A client says, "My parent was emotionally client says, "My parent was emotionally client says, "My parent was emotionally harmful, but they also paid for my harmful, but they also paid for my harmful, but they also paid for my school and helped me financially. How school and helped me financially. How school and helped me financially. How should they decide if they should go no should they decide if they should go no should they decide if they should go no contact?" contact?" contact?" >> Okay, money don't buy emotional >> Okay, money don't buy emotional >> Okay, money don't buy emotional indulgences, folks. They don't. And many indulgences, folks. They don't. And many indulgences, folks. They don't. And many many unhealthy family systems will say, many unhealthy family systems will say, many unhealthy family systems will say, "We paid for school. We helped you with "We paid for school. We helped you with "We paid for school. We helped you with rent. We bought you a car." So, they're rent. We bought you a car." So, they're rent. We bought you a car." So, they're putting a dollar value. So, like, putting a dollar value. So, like, putting a dollar value. So, like, apparently if you spend $100,000 that apparently if you spend $100,000 that apparently if you spend $100,000 that buys you 20 years of abuse, 15 years of buys you 20 years of abuse, 15 years of buys you 20 years of abuse, 15 years of gaslighting? No. gaslighting? No. gaslighting? No. I think that that transactional model is I think that that transactional model is I think that that transactional model is something that yes, they again, more something that yes, they again, more something that yes, they again, more than one thing can be true at the same than one thing can be true at the same than one thing can be true at the same time. They did pay your tuition and time. They did pay your tuition and time. They did pay your tuition and their behavior is psychologically their behavior is psychologically their behavior is psychologically unhealthy and doing harm to you and both unhealthy and doing harm to you and both unhealthy and doing harm to you and both those things are true and you don't owe those things are true and you don't owe those things are true and you don't owe them anything. Listen, Jay, I've been them anything. Listen, Jay, I've been them anything. Listen, Jay, I've been doing this work long enough that I have doing this work long enough that I have doing this work long enough that I have seen parents when their kids go no seen parents when their kids go no seen parents when their kids go no contact, they sent their kids a bill, contact, they sent their kids a bill, contact, they sent their kids a bill, itemized. itemized. itemized. Pages and pages of invoices. This is Pages and pages of invoices. This is Pages and pages of invoices. This is what your this cost. This is what that what your this cost. This is what that what your this cost. This is what that cost. This is what your the health cost. This is what your the health cost. This is what your the health insurance that we paid for you. insurance that we paid for you. insurance that we paid for you. One case it was a person I don't even One case it was a person I don't even One case it was a person I don't even know what they did to anger their know what they did to anger their know what they did to anger their parents, but they did you know, you were parents, but they did you know, you were parents, but they did you know, you were distancing themselves and it came from a distancing themselves and it came from a distancing themselves and it came from a lawyer's office in a very itemized way. lawyer's office in a very itemized way. lawyer's office in a very itemized way. All of it was broken down. Like it was All of it was broken down. Like it was All of it was broken down. Like it was like tuition cost, the health insurance like tuition cost, the health insurance like tuition cost, the health insurance that they had to carry when they were a that they had to carry when they were a that they had to carry when they were a kid costs. They had every little thing kid costs. They had every little thing kid costs. They had every little thing detailed and like helped to give them detailed and like helped to give them detailed and like helped to give them for a down payment, whatever. And there for a down payment, whatever. And there for a down payment, whatever. And there was the bill. And they said, you can was the bill. And they said, you can was the bill. And they said, you can work with our attorney's office on an on work with our attorney's office on an on work with our attorney's office on an on a low interest payment plan. a low interest payment plan. a low interest payment plan. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I I mean, it was unenforceable, as you >> I I mean, it was unenforceable, as you >> I I mean, it was unenforceable, as you could imagine. But can you imagine? So, could imagine. But can you imagine? So, could imagine. But can you imagine? So, I think that it is to understand that I think that it is to understand that I think that it is to understand that more than one thing can be true. The to more than one thing can be true. The to more than one thing can be true. The to be a parent is to have financial be a parent is to have financial be a parent is to have financial responsibility. They paid for those responsibility. They paid for those responsibility. They paid for those things and they're harmful. The It It is things and they're harmful. The It It is things and they're harmful. The It It is not It's not a transaction. not It's not a transaction. not It's not a transaction. >> Have you experienced the opposite in >> Have you experienced the opposite in >> Have you experienced the opposite in your office where your office where your office where kids are somewhat taking advantage of kids are somewhat taking advantage of kids are somewhat taking advantage of their parents or try or you have a you their parents or try or you have a you their parents or try or you have a you have experienced that before? have experienced that before? have experienced that before? >> Absolutely. And here's when we see, >> Absolutely. And here's when we see, >> Absolutely. And here's when we see, especially in an emerging adult, especially in an emerging adult, especially in an emerging adult, especially who has narcissistic patterns especially who has narcissistic patterns especially who has narcissistic patterns and feels owed something. So, what and feels owed something. So, what and feels owed something. So, what they'll say is, my parents were they'll say is, my parents were they'll say is, my parents were terrible. And maybe the parents weren't terrible. And maybe the parents weren't terrible. And maybe the parents weren't great and say, they're going to pay for great and say, they're going to pay for great and say, they're going to pay for it. Okay, so I'm going to uh willingly it. Okay, so I'm going to uh willingly it. Okay, so I'm going to uh willingly take financial advantage. When they take financial advantage. When they take financial advantage. When they offer me stuff, I'm going to take it cuz offer me stuff, I'm going to take it cuz offer me stuff, I'm going to take it cuz at least it feels like reparation to at least it feels like reparation to at least it feels like reparation to them. It's a really unhealthy dynamic, them. It's a really unhealthy dynamic, them. It's a really unhealthy dynamic, which is an incredibly unhealthy which is an incredibly unhealthy which is an incredibly unhealthy psychological dynamic cuz it's not going psychological dynamic cuz it's not going psychological dynamic cuz it's not going to address the wound. But if it is And to address the wound. But if it is And to address the wound. But if it is And listen, some people might do it from a listen, some people might do it from a listen, some people might do it from a place of deep deep hurt of saying, I place of deep deep hurt of saying, I place of deep deep hurt of saying, I need to get something out of this. And need to get something out of this. And need to get something out of this. And at least if I have some money so I can at least if I have some money so I can at least if I have some money so I can secure a safe place to say, I'll feel secure a safe place to say, I'll feel secure a safe place to say, I'll feel more whole. But they often don't feel more whole. But they often don't feel more whole. But they often don't feel more whole. If anything, they'll say, more whole. If anything, they'll say, more whole. If anything, they'll say, okay, at least I have a place to live. okay, at least I have a place to live. okay, at least I have a place to live. But it still came at this cost. And if But it still came at this cost. And if But it still came at this cost. And if anything, it keeps that trauma-bonded anything, it keeps that trauma-bonded anything, it keeps that trauma-bonded sense of, well, now I owe them cuz I sense of, well, now I owe them cuz I sense of, well, now I owe them cuz I took their money. took their money. took their money. >> Someone goes no contact, then finds out >> Someone goes no contact, then finds out >> Someone goes no contact, then finds out their parent is sick or dying. How do their parent is sick or dying. How do their parent is sick or dying. How do you decide whether breaking no contact you decide whether breaking no contact you decide whether breaking no contact is worth it? is worth it? is worth it? >> This is a decision you're largely making >> This is a decision you're largely making >> This is a decision you're largely making for yourself because it's unless you're for yourself because it's unless you're for yourself because it's unless you're some magical physician, you're not going some magical physician, you're not going some magical physician, you're not going to probably change the course of things to probably change the course of things to probably change the course of things for them. for them. for them. And I tell people, whatever decision you And I tell people, whatever decision you And I tell people, whatever decision you make, have realistic expectations. make, have realistic expectations. make, have realistic expectations. You're probably not going to have some You're probably not going to have some You're probably not going to have some cinematic moment of forgiveness. You may cinematic moment of forgiveness. You may cinematic moment of forgiveness. You may very well get a moment of anger. You very well get a moment of anger. You very well get a moment of anger. You could potentially get a moment of could potentially get a moment of could potentially get a moment of indifference. You may have a moment of indifference. You may have a moment of indifference. You may have a moment of tremendous guilt and grief of how has it tremendous guilt and grief of how has it tremendous guilt and grief of how has it come to this? It's always going to be come to this? It's always going to be come to this? It's always going to be unpleasant. There is no right answer, unpleasant. There is no right answer, unpleasant. There is no right answer, but there's really a short-term to do but there's really a short-term to do but there's really a short-term to do what needs to be done. And I don't know what needs to be done. And I don't know what needs to be done. And I don't know that there is a right answer. For some that there is a right answer. For some that there is a right answer. For some people say, "I ended contact with this people say, "I ended contact with this people say, "I ended contact with this parent a long time ago. We've not been parent a long time ago. We've not been parent a long time ago. We've not been in each other's lives. This feels in each other's lives. This feels in each other's lives. This feels performative to me. They're going to performative to me. They're going to performative to me. They're going to pass. They could have easily passed pass. They could have easily passed pass. They could have easily passed without me knowing it." And in some without me knowing it." And in some without me knowing it." And in some cases, people say, "I'm going to go cases, people say, "I'm going to go cases, people say, "I'm going to go because I still have to live a life because I still have to live a life because I still have to live a life after this." And yes, it would have after this." And yes, it would have after this." And yes, it would have taken a different path, but they say to taken a different path, but they say to taken a different path, but they say to be my my whole self, I at least want to be my my whole self, I at least want to be my my whole self, I at least want to say goodbye as imperfect as this was. I say goodbye as imperfect as this was. I say goodbye as imperfect as this was. I just tell people it's very hard to do just tell people it's very hard to do just tell people it's very hard to do things free of expectations, but the things free of expectations, but the things free of expectations, but the less you're going in with a narrative less you're going in with a narrative less you're going in with a narrative and a sense that what if it goes this and a sense that what if it goes this and a sense that what if it goes this way, what if it It's going to go the way way, what if it It's going to go the way way, what if it It's going to go the way it goes, but the idea that you're going it goes, but the idea that you're going it goes, but the idea that you're going to get some kind like I said, deathbed to get some kind like I said, deathbed to get some kind like I said, deathbed confession, working through is probably confession, working through is probably confession, working through is probably quite unlikely. And to be very clear in quite unlikely. And to be very clear in quite unlikely. And to be very clear in what your motivations are going in. And what your motivations are going in. And what your motivations are going in. And because again, there is no right answer, because again, there is no right answer, because again, there is no right answer, no pain-free path. no pain-free path. no pain-free path. >> Okay, two more. Last two. >> Okay, two more. Last two. >> Okay, two more. Last two. After months of silence, a narcissistic After months of silence, a narcissistic After months of silence, a narcissistic parent suddenly becomes loving, parent suddenly becomes loving, parent suddenly becomes loving, generous, and attentive. How can you generous, and attentive. How can you generous, and attentive. How can you tell if it's worth to let them back in? tell if it's worth to let them back in? tell if it's worth to let them back in? How would you encourage someone to stay How would you encourage someone to stay How would you encourage someone to stay strong in their boundary or think about strong in their boundary or think about strong in their boundary or think about that in general? that in general? that in general? >> Yeah, I think that in a case like that >> Yeah, I think that in a case like that >> Yeah, I think that in a case like that is get away from the idea of games games is get away from the idea of games games is get away from the idea of games games playing and get more into what feels playing and get more into what feels playing and get more into what feels right and safe to you because again, you right and safe to you because again, you right and safe to you because again, you know what the game's going to be. If you know what the game's going to be. If you know what the game's going to be. If you say no, oh my gosh, I'm being so nice to say no, oh my gosh, I'm being so nice to say no, oh my gosh, I'm being so nice to you. Nothing's ever enough for you. If you. Nothing's ever enough for you. If you. Nothing's ever enough for you. If you say yes, you might get pulled back you say yes, you might get pulled back you say yes, you might get pulled back into the system. into the system. into the system. That's why I'm saying any period of no That's why I'm saying any period of no That's why I'm saying any period of no contact should be a time of healing. Cuz contact should be a time of healing. Cuz contact should be a time of healing. Cuz if they do come back and you've done if they do come back and you've done if they do come back and you've done your work your work your work and then they are nicey-nice and you're and then they are nicey-nice and you're and then they are nicey-nice and you're having realistic expectations about it, having realistic expectations about it, having realistic expectations about it, and then that nicey-nice starts and then that nicey-nice starts and then that nicey-nice starts descending into manipulative descending into manipulative descending into manipulative manipulative, you're able to say, "Here manipulative, you're able to say, "Here manipulative, you're able to say, "Here we go again." And I can disengage again. we go again." And I can disengage again. we go again." And I can disengage again. Cuz I think the challenge with trauma Cuz I think the challenge with trauma Cuz I think the challenge with trauma bonded relationships is like all the bonded relationships is like all the bonded relationships is like all the lights go on immediately and we we're lights go on immediately and we we're lights go on immediately and we we're right back into that really stuck, right back into that really stuck, right back into that really stuck, self-blaming, self-abandoning space. But self-blaming, self-abandoning space. But self-blaming, self-abandoning space. But if we can say, "I'm going to show up if we can say, "I'm going to show up if we can say, "I'm going to show up here as my whole self. here as my whole self. here as my whole self. I know that they can't handle hearing I know that they can't handle hearing I know that they can't handle hearing anything about me, so I won't. They're anything about me, so I won't. They're anything about me, so I won't. They're going to be nicey-nice and they'll keep going to be nicey-nice and they'll keep going to be nicey-nice and they'll keep I'll keep it superficial." And some I'll keep it superficial." And some I'll keep it superficial." And some people might exactly what as we said, people might exactly what as we said, people might exactly what as we said, sometimes no contact can go into this sometimes no contact can go into this sometimes no contact can go into this sort of new wave of the relationship, sort of new wave of the relationship, sort of new wave of the relationship, which is much more superficial, sort of which is much more superficial, sort of which is much more superficial, sort of cordial, with zero expectations, and you cordial, with zero expectations, and you cordial, with zero expectations, and you kind of get in and you get out. It's kind of get in and you get out. It's kind of get in and you get out. It's sort of like a meet and greet at that sort of like a meet and greet at that sort of like a meet and greet at that point. And that might be your parents point. And that might be your parents point. And that might be your parents might just like the optics of saying, might just like the optics of saying, might just like the optics of saying, "Look, I got together with my kid." And "Look, I got together with my kid." And "Look, I got together with my kid." And you then might have come to a more you then might have come to a more you then might have come to a more reconciled place of it. I just want reconciled place of it. I just want reconciled place of it. I just want people to get away from the whole magic people to get away from the whole magic people to get away from the whole magic kind of Hallmark moment that it's all kind of Hallmark moment that it's all kind of Hallmark moment that it's all going to be perfect and work its way going to be perfect and work its way going to be perfect and work its way out. The fairy tale is not likely to out. The fairy tale is not likely to out. The fairy tale is not likely to happen. You wouldn't have gone no happen. You wouldn't have gone no happen. You wouldn't have gone no contact for no reason. That happened for contact for no reason. That happened for contact for no reason. That happened for a reason. a reason. a reason. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Okay, final one. Someone who's no Okay, final one. Someone who's no Okay, final one. Someone who's no contact feels pressured to invite a contact feels pressured to invite a contact feels pressured to invite a narcissistic parent to a wedding or let narcissistic parent to a wedding or let narcissistic parent to a wedding or let them see a new baby. What should them see a new baby. What should them see a new baby. What should actually guide that decision? actually guide that decision? actually guide that decision? >> What feels safe to you? How do you want >> What feels safe to you? How do you want >> What feels safe to you? How do you want to preserve that day? How do you want to to preserve that day? How do you want to to preserve that day? How do you want to preserve this moment? What How do you preserve this moment? What How do you preserve this moment? What How do you want to move forward? But because it's want to move forward? But because it's want to move forward? But because it's your day, it's your wedding day, it's your day, it's your wedding day, it's your day, it's your wedding day, it's your baby. These are your moments and your baby. These are your moments and your baby. These are your moments and there may be a What gets complicated is, there may be a What gets complicated is, there may be a What gets complicated is, for example, for example, for example, there's a sibling who's or grandparent there's a sibling who's or grandparent there's a sibling who's or grandparent who desperately wants this person at the who desperately wants this person at the who desperately wants this person at the wedding and you very fond of the wedding and you very fond of the wedding and you very fond of the sibling, you're very fond of that sibling, you're very fond of that sibling, you're very fond of that grandparent. A wedding's two people. I grandparent. A wedding's two people. I grandparent. A wedding's two people. I think there's a meaningful conversation think there's a meaningful conversation think there's a meaningful conversation that should happen between the two that should happen between the two that should happen between the two people getting married. The baby has two people getting married. The baby has two people getting married. The baby has two parents. That should be a meaningful parents. That should be a meaningful parents. That should be a meaningful conversation between those two people conversation between those two people conversation between those two people with the key stakeholders in this entire with the key stakeholders in this entire with the key stakeholders in this entire experience. So, as I keep bringing it experience. So, as I keep bringing it experience. So, as I keep bringing it back to the sense of safety and back to the sense of safety and back to the sense of safety and authenticity. authenticity. authenticity. Some people will say, Some people will say, Some people will say, I I hope I never get married again, so I I I hope I never get married again, so I I I hope I never get married again, so I wouldn't I may want this person here, wouldn't I may want this person here, wouldn't I may want this person here, but I have to be realistic about what but I have to be realistic about what but I have to be realistic about what this looks like. I don't want them to this looks like. I don't want them to this looks like. I don't want them to have a role in this day. So, it might be have a role in this day. So, it might be have a role in this day. So, it might be I don't want them involved in any of the I don't want them involved in any of the I don't want them involved in any of the ceremonial stuff, but they can come. ceremonial stuff, but they can come. ceremonial stuff, but they can come. Other people say, "Absolutely not. This Other people say, "Absolutely not. This Other people say, "Absolutely not. This would cast too long a shadow. It's a would cast too long a shadow. It's a would cast too long a shadow. It's a no." But, I do think people need someone no." But, I do think people need someone no." But, I do think people need someone to walk them through this. This is where to walk them through this. This is where to walk them through this. This is where therapy becomes crucial. That a a therapy becomes crucial. That a a therapy becomes crucial. That a a therapist has no skin in the game, therapist has no skin in the game, therapist has no skin in the game, right? That's where it Friends may have right? That's where it Friends may have right? That's where it Friends may have their opinions and family members, but a their opinions and family members, but a their opinions and family members, but a therapist they just want you to have the therapist they just want you to have the therapist they just want you to have the healthiest version of that day. And I healthiest version of that day. And I healthiest version of that day. And I think that this is where having that think that this is where having that think that this is where having that professional guidance with enough time professional guidance with enough time professional guidance with enough time leading up to it. So, once again, you're leading up to it. So, once again, you're leading up to it. So, once again, you're not abandoning you to make this family not abandoning you to make this family not abandoning you to make this family system work on what is a very very system work on what is a very very system work on what is a very very important time for you. And if you do important time for you. And if you do important time for you. And if you do decide like, "I'm going to have them decide like, "I'm going to have them decide like, "I'm going to have them there to maintain the radical there to maintain the radical there to maintain the radical acceptance, the realistic awareness, the acceptance, the realistic awareness, the acceptance, the realistic awareness, the realistic expectations." That's a very realistic expectations." That's a very realistic expectations." That's a very personal choice, but if you if it personal choice, but if you if it personal choice, but if you if it doesn't feel safe No is No is a complete doesn't feel safe No is No is a complete doesn't feel safe No is No is a complete sentence. sentence. sentence. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Dr. Romani, thank you for being so Dr. Romani, thank you for being so Dr. Romani, thank you for being so clear, for being so vulnerable, for clear, for being so vulnerable, for clear, for being so vulnerable, for being holding this space for such a being holding this space for such a being holding this space for such a difficult conversation. It really is difficult conversation. It really is difficult conversation. It really is such a difficult, challenging such a difficult, challenging such a difficult, challenging conversation that it's pulling at conversation that it's pulling at conversation that it's pulling at people's heartstrings, it's playing with people's heartstrings, it's playing with people's heartstrings, it's playing with people's emotions, it's affecting their people's emotions, it's affecting their people's emotions, it's affecting their mental state, their physical state. I mental state, their physical state. I mental state, their physical state. I mean, this is such a a conversation that mean, this is such a a conversation that mean, this is such a a conversation that has so much has so much has so much gravitas to it in in your life uh and gravitas to it in in your life uh and gravitas to it in in your life uh and where it will go and just Thank you for where it will go and just Thank you for where it will go and just Thank you for creating such a wonderful space for us creating such a wonderful space for us creating such a wonderful space for us to learn and be curious and think about to learn and be curious and think about to learn and be curious and think about it. I feel like I've gained so much it. I feel like I've gained so much it. I feel like I've gained so much understanding for myself, but also for understanding for myself, but also for understanding for myself, but also for the people that are struggling in the people that are struggling in the people that are struggling in between this decision or maybe you've between this decision or maybe you've between this decision or maybe you've made it and you're questioning it. And made it and you're questioning it. And made it and you're questioning it. And so, I really hope that this becomes an so, I really hope that this becomes an so, I really hope that this becomes an episode that people send to their family episode that people send to their family episode that people send to their family members, their friends who are members, their friends who are members, their friends who are struggling with these things. Uh and I struggling with these things. Uh and I struggling with these things. Uh and I hope that Dr. Romani's work continues to hope that Dr. Romani's work continues to hope that Dr. Romani's work continues to guide you through. Uh you can find Dr. guide you through. Uh you can find Dr. guide you through. Uh you can find Dr. Romani all across social media, every Romani all across social media, every Romani all across social media, every platform. We'll put all the links to her platform. We'll put all the links to her platform. We'll put all the links to her books in the caption as well. Dr. books in the caption as well. Dr. books in the caption as well. Dr. Romani, thank you so much Romani, thank you so much Romani, thank you so much >> Thank you so much for >> Thank you so much for >> Thank you so much for >> here. Yeah, such a joy and really >> here. Yeah, such a joy and really >> here. Yeah, such a joy and really grateful to learn so much from you. grateful to learn so much from you. grateful to learn so much from you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll >> If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll >> If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll love my episode with the world's leading love my episode with the world's leading love my episode with the world's leading relationship therapist Esther Perel, relationship therapist Esther Perel, relationship therapist Esther Perel, [music] [music] [music] where we talk about why your ego is where we talk about why your ego is where we talk about why your ego is ruining your relationships and how to ruining your relationships and how to ruining your relationships and how to date more effectively. date more effectively. date more effectively. >> we need to differentiate. Are you >> we need to differentiate. Are you >> we need to differentiate. Are you looking for chemistry for a love story looking for chemistry for a love story looking for chemistry for a love story or are you for chemistry for a life or are you for chemistry for a life or are you for chemistry for a life story?