Don't Let the News Paralyze You | Tom Llamas

Key Takeaway

Genuine curiosity about others is the key to better listening and stronger relationships. When you ask questions and truly listen to the answers, it helps you ask better follow-up questions and connect more deeply with people. The goal isn't to interrogate but to genuinely understand their story and experiences.

Episode Overview

NBC Nightly News anchor Tom Llamas discusses the art of listening, continuous growth, and maintaining humanity while covering difficult stories. He shares his philosophy of 'exhausting life' - being fully present and maximizing each day through faith, meditation, goal-setting, and meaningful connections with others.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Don't Let the News Paralyze You | Tom Llamas from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Tom Yamus, new anchor of NBC Evening News. Uh, welcome to the show, Dan. How you doing, my friend? I'm doing great. I am simultaneously really happy for and very proud of you. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. I um I recently had to change something on my phone and I lost a bunch of people's numbers, including yours, and I was I was trying to text you on the day the announcement came and was unable to do that. So, please take this as my belated No, it was I was wondering.

I was like, I've heard from everybody except Dan. I go, I I thought I thought we were closer than that. Um but no Dan just just so you know uh you know when we worked together I learned so much from you and you were truly one of the great anchors that I got to sit next to and learn from because what you taught me was being a good anchor is about a lot of things but one of the key things is you got to be able to listen and you were and are still remain one of the best listeners in our business and I think it just it makes you a better journalist because once you listen to people then you really hear them out you know.

Well, first of all, thank you. Uh, and I've got I got feedback in, you know, the not too distant past. I'm thinking specifically of a 360 review I did in 2018, which was quite disastrous, where people pointed out that I might have been a good listener in a journalistic context, but interpersonally not so great. I was more broadcasting than uh than listening. And so I'm just wondering for you as a listen, you know, as somebody who's keyed into the skill of listening, like what would you recommend for people who are interested in getting better at that either professionally or personally?

What I've noticed with people when I'm off the air, a lot of times people may not outwardly want to speak about themselves or talk about themselves, but when you ask them questions and you truly are curious about them, I I find that people do open up. And I I've always loved to ask people questions whether I'm on the job or I'm not. Like I like to get to really know people and to connect with people on a a deeper level cuz I just I you know we have we have a finite amount of time on this on this planet.

If we're going to have a conversation, if we're going to share some time together, I want to really get to know people. So I I do ask questions. And there's a difference between asking probing questions but asking deep questions. And I think when you listen to people, you what what it helps you do is it helps you with your next question because if you're not listening, you're not going to ask the right next question. And and that works in life. I think it works in our job as well.

And what I learned from you though was when when reporters were giving their report and what we call like, you know, the the live shot after the top and tail in those live tales, which is the end after the news package has run, the reporter is saying something live to the anchors and to the viewers. you were always so keen on listening to that and you always had sort of the right reaction in the sense of how are we connecting the dots here and and what else am I going to say to help the viewer and that's something that great anchors do and I mean when I would sit next to you on the anchor desk and watch you were you were a master at that that that thank you and now you're the guy in a suit and tie and I'm doing this interview in a t-shirt and my bathing suit so suit so suit so sometimes a student becomes a t-shirt right I guess so I guess So, uh, so I'm curious just on this tip of listening, you know, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I used to get people saying to me in my personal life, "Dude, I I feel like I'm being interviewed all the time." Okay.

And so, do do you think they mean that as a compliment or as a back the [ __ ] up? Um, I think it's usually with my friends who who would make fun of me for asking 20 questions. And um and I mean I think I think we're old enough now to a point where we know we're not interrogating people as as journalists or as lawyers, especially people we just meet off the street. But but again, regardless of what you do, um you know, I I'm going to be interested in your life and I'm going to be interested in in your profession and your family life.

And I think that's just being a curious person. It's probably what brought me one of the reasons why I love this job so much is that you constantly learn, right? And that's sort of one of the things you want to do as as a good human. We want to constantly be learning. Something that I believe firmly in my life is that if you're not growing, you're dying, right? So, whatever you are doing, whether you're you're walking or you're in this job or you're playing tennis or you're you're being a father, if you're not growing, what exactly are you doing there?

And so, I think by by talking to people and learning about their lives, you're you're sort of growing in a way. But I I totally agree with you because my mom and I I probably get it from my mom. I'll be in situations with my mom and she'll be just like just really like giving the Barbara Walters treatment to someone and she's just met. And I'm like, "Mom, you you've just met this person." But I got to tell you, most of the time people, they they like to talk about themselves and they like to to sort of share their life experience.

I especially as you get older, I think it's kind of like a benevolent manipulation technique, manipulation technique, manipulation technique, because people really love to talk about themselves and you can warm them up. I mean, when I say benevolent, I mean like, you know, you're not manipulating them to like give you all your money. Uh, but it's more like get making people comfortable. Uh, it's a kind of win-win because I I like you like to learn from other people. I don't want to just talk about the weather or lawn care or whatever.

And people like, you know, most people like in the appropriate, if you're doing it well, in the right style to talk about themselves. Yeah. And I think people live much more interesting lives than they even realize. You know, I think people think sometimes if if they meet uh someone like myself or someone like you who has worked in the media, who who has gotten a front row seat to some of history's biggest events and and who are there day in day out every week covering what's happening around this world.

Um I I am fascinated by by people whatever they do because everyone has an interesting life. I believe that and they've had interesting life experiences. Um, and and it also I think it also comes a lot from you know I'm the son of Cuban immigrants and and it's very common when you meet other people who who are Cuban the first question you ask is about their family's journey. I mean that is that is like the second question once you realize somebody is also Cubaname and and those are all stories we would share growing up as soon as we met somebody new or somebody else like you would hear the stories of how their their parents got out or how their grandparents got out and how they came to this country and how they struggled and and and how how life was going.

So I think it's part of that too. I want to put a pin in your parents' story because it's incredible. So, I want to come back to that. Um, but you you just said something interesting. If you're not growing, you're dying. How do you keep growing? Yeah. I I mean, I I sort of, you know, I set goals. I like to sort of make a list every every year right after New Year's. And it's goals for my life personally, goals for me as a husband, as a dad, and just just so I sort of have a record to go back at the end of the year be like, how did I do this year?

And I think that's one way. I think it's sort of changing the things you did one year and trying something different the next year. Uh sort of forcing yourself into an uncomfortable position. Nothing crazy, but if you ran a mile last year, hey, maybe this year you run two miles. Things things like that. um reading books that about topics maybe I don't I don't know or I don't understand or I need to to read up on. Um getting to know people maybe that I I I haven't gotten to know yet, whether it be at at work or my personal life.

But I think it's just it's sort of setting challenges for yourself, realizing sort of where your limitations are, maybe where your ceilings are, and seeing if you can you can keep growing out of them. Um, and I I don't know where I read that quote, but every time I read a good quote, I write it down. And it's it's in it's in my, you know, my my notes and my my iPhone of my my the quotes that I love, and it's one of the ones I wrote down years ago, and I still believe in it.

Yeah. I mean, I think if I'm hearing you correctly, and I I kind of knew this about you already, it's uh it's just kind of a habit now for you to be and and obviously it's what drove you to journalism and what keeps you in journalism, but it's not just journalism because you're interested in in doing all aspects of your life better. It's just an orientation you have to life, it sounds like. sounds like. sounds like. Yeah, it is. And I mean, it's but it's everything.

It's it's my faith. Um it's my health. It's like I said, being a dad, being a husband. There's another quote that I love um that Ronnie Lot actually actually said that that great safety from the 49ers who said you know he loved to exhaust life and I I say that every time I'm talking to people like I love to exhaust life and that basically means just trying to maximize this day maximize what we're going to put in whether it's going to be this podcast with you Dan or it's going to be nightly news tonight or it's going to be pitching batting practice to my son like we're going to exhaust life we're going to have a great time we're going to do this to the best we're not going really do anything halfass.

And that's that's kind of the way I I live my life along those lines of, you know, if you're not growing, you're dying. Um, and it's not always being uber intense about things because, you know, I I and I I think I told you this a long time ago. After reading your book, I got into meditation. But I also think a part of exhausting life is when you maximize your day is is being fully present in that day. Because when you when you truly exhaust life, when you're in in the zone or in flow, whatever you want to call it, I mean, you are in that moment, right?

You're not thinking about the past or the future, you're there. And to me, I think that's the goal every day, right? Obviously, to be a good person foremost, but as far as like our time on this planet, it is exhausting life and being in that moment. I want to stay with that theme for a second. Um, but before I do, I I want to own that I [ __ ] something up. Uh uh I said at the beginning NBC Evening News, but it's NBC Nightly News.

I know. And I didn't correct you. I didn't correct you because I am a guest in your house. So I did not correct you. So I have grown as a person because I cuz cuz there would have been a me a couple years ago been like, "Yo, bro, we got to go back." Well, the good news is the introduction, which listeners will have already heard, uh will give you the the appropriate title. Um, so, um, your your your friend over here is just a Dum Dum.

Um, uh, my my son believes that my rapper name is Lil Dum Dum. Um, Lil Dum Dum. Okay, that's pretty fun fun. fun. fun. Uh, it's pretty fun fun. All right, but let me just go with Exhausting Life for a second. I read in in some of the articles that came out when when your big promotion was announced that you know there's like a there's a time in the day after you know you've you've you've hustled all day to get a story and then you've you've presented the story on the evening news and in your case you're anchoring the nightly news and I said evening news again but then very quickly corrected it with nightly news.

uh you and and then you kind of like hurl yourself on the floor on the couch for a second and it's like whoa okay we did it and it it sounds to me like that is that's a key moment for yeah I mean I think on big news events like after an election night and and you're on the air for several hours going live Dan you remember those nights you know about those nights where you're you're presenting something that is incredibly important to the audience something incredibly important that is happening on that night and and and you have to be there for everybody and you have to make sure that you're you're playing at your best and when that night is done.

Oh yeah. Like you you you are sitting down and you're sort of absorbing everything that just happened. It also happens on those on those those terrible stories, you know, those stories where you meet people on the worst day of their life and something horrific has happened and you're tasked with telling the stories of these people and telling the nation about this awful event that has made our entire country pause. Um, you do have to sort of take those breaks sometimes after those moments because you can't just keep thinking, okay, about ne okay now I have to do the the next live shot or tomorrow I have to be in the Today Show or what are we doing for Nightly News.

Like you have to at some point absorb what everything you've taken. You don't live in it because it'll paralyze you. But I I do think you have to absorb it for for a second or two. Well, okay. So, you brought me exactly where I wanted to go. You don't live in it because it will paralyze you. Your job is to bear witness to like the worst aspects of humanity. Also the best. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, you've been in Gaza, Ukraine, um you cover politics, you cover the migrant crisis, um natural disasters, which obviously is not humanity's fault necessarily, although with the climate crisis increasingly, we can take some of the blame.

Um, so you're you're right there, you know, at the tip of the spear in some really, you know, uncomfortable spots. How do you not let it paralyze you? This is probably the question I get most from younger journalists when we we just came back from the NAHA, which is the National Association of Hispanic Journalists. And I I get this question a few times every day when we're doing our panels. And I get it from people that I'm mentoring here here at NBC News, too. And it's tough because, you know, you don't ever want to lose that humanity, Dan, right?

Because I think if you lose the humanity, you you've lost the reason why you're there. This doesn't mean you have to be overly emotional. This does not mean that you have to be an advocate for anyone except the truth. But you can't lose that human touch. And so you have that and you live in that moment and you're there, Dan, as you know, in that zone for that interview, for that that important live shot, for for the the entire show, sometimes an hour long. Um, and you don't ever forget it.

And that's what I tell people. I said I said the way I live with it is that I just I don't ever forget them and I I make a promise to myself that if if we need to go back we will go back. So we won't forget about that community, right? Cuz we have the benefit of parachuting in sometimes into these these natural disasters, but we know at some point we're getting out. The people that are living through that, they're not going to get out. They're going to have to deal with this.

And usually the worst part comes after the storm hits, right? Or after that tornado has pushed through. It's living with no power. It's realizing you've lost your house. is realizing, oh wait, your insurance just dropped you. You now have no money. Um, and this is going to going to affect your life for years to come. We're about to to mark the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, which when you think is just so wild. And there are people in New Orleans that are still dealing with the scars of Katrina.

So So my commitment to them and what I tell them is that you're always going to go back. But I'm sure there'll be at some point in my life, Dan, when when it will all hit me, right? Because like you know like you just you talk to people on on on on very tough days and you have to absorb that and a lot of times it hits you and there there are many times and I'm not afraid to show emotion because we're human, right? But there are many times especially with stories with kids where it'll hit me in the in real time and I and I'll need a minute because I'm just human, you know?

There's there's only so much of this like you can you can take. But again, you've been through it, you're trained, you know how to do it. And I think you you take that emotion and you put it into your writing, you put it into your broadcasting. Yeah, I I agree with all that. And I would say for me there there's a kind of difference between being in a horrible situation as a journalist or just being in a horrible situation. Um I've, you know, like you, I've I've seen some un, you know, ghastly things in my day, but I'm kind of wearing the goggles of a journal.

I'm there to get a job done and um I feel like a some layer of psychological protection as opposed to if I just landed there and was had nothing to do except for take it all in. Does that make sense what I'm saying? It does. And I actually in your book I think you wrote about this and you wrote about it so eloquently and I I it's crazy because I've thought the same exact things and I know a lot of journalists in our profession have thought the same thing but you you put it into words which is when you are covering a a breaking news event especially when there is danger involved you feel almost that you are in this cocoon and you somehow are protected but you really are not.

you're as exposed as everybody else, but for some reason when you're in front of the camera and you're reporting live, you you you you feel you sort of feel protected even though you're not. It's a weird feeling, but it's just something maybe we tell ourselves when we're in those moments. Yeah. And I think maybe we need it in order to get through it. Uh I think the question, and I saw this happen in my own life, is and you kind of made a nod to this, is like maybe it'll all catch up with you at some point.

I've definitely had it catch up to me in various moments, which is why I think and you're you're way ahead of me um as somebody who's slightly younger than me, but has practices to protect your psyche, which I did not have, especially when I was a combat correspondent. And so, I'd love to talk about some of the things you do regularly that I think kind keep you sane. You mentioned your your we'll talk about meditation, too, but you mentioned your faith. Um you you you come from a Catholic family.

went to a a a really prestigious Catholic high school in in Miami, Berlin, where I have um uh I have a very close friend whose whose sons went there. It's a boy school and it's an amazing school and I know that was a place where your faith deepened. Can you just talk a little bit about the role of faith for you? I'm a Catholic and all Catholics are Christians. Not everyone knows that. Uh but not all Christians are Catholics. grew up was was born a Catholic, you know, had my first communion, was obviously baptized when I was younger, confirmation, and then I went to to Bend Jesuit, which was that high school you mentioned.

I also I also went to a Catholic college, Lyola University in New Orleans as well. Um, which has a a very strong sort of faith community there. And I think my role there. And I think my role and and my journey with with God is, you know, like many Catholics, I I was born into it. I I go to mass. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. Um, and I I you know, I think on on a sort of a on a on a macro level, when we think about someone like Jesus, you just regardless of your religion, every religion sort of has a person like Jesus, it it is what you should strive to be as a as a human, which is don't judge others.

Be a good person and know that that this thing that you're living through, it's not about you. It's about everyone else. And I think if you sort of absorb that and you you think about that, you don't have to be a Christian, you know, to to live that that type of philosophy. But if you are, I believe you're living a good and and and and a meaningful life. And so that's that's what I take from it. Um I pray a few times a day. I go to mass.

My kids go to mass. Um, I love hearing, you know, whether they be Catholic or or non-denominational non-denominational non-denominational um, pastors deliver sermons and and hear their message and talk about how they they interpret the Bible, uh, love the Bible and and and reading the Bible. Not as much as maybe as I should, but um, I love to go to church and I love to be surprised by a priest and and their homaly. It happened just this past Sunday. sometimes, you know, the Catholic Church has has has gone through a lot um over the the past few decades because of the the the the pre-ex scandal and and so many other scandals that have rocked the Catholic Church and a lot of the priests that have come now um in into the fold.

There's a lot of new priests, a lot of younger priests. So, like you at at at church, depending on your parish, you kind of never know what you're you're going to get. And um and we had sort of an old school priest on Sunday and he gave a really good really good sermon that and I I I love it when all my kids I have 12 nine and seven that they listen to. That's when you know actually he's delivering a good homaly because usually it's my son trying to wrestle the three of us um when we're in church or the four of us.

Um and so so if he's if even even he he's listening I think that's great. And and that's what it is and it's something we've shared with our kids and we pray at night and it's helped me through some tough times and I believe in it. I've got a big trip coming up. I'm very excited about this. My family and I are flying to Washington to go to a Washington Commander football game. As you may have heard me mention before, my beloved brother-in-law, Jack, is a pro scout for the Commanders.

Love Jack. Love the Commanders. Love their head coach who was on this show not long ago. Anyway, I'm excited about this trip and many of us are heading into a period of time when we're all taking vacation. It's the holiday season and I've got an idea for you. while you're away, you could use that as an opportunity to host your home your home your home on Airbnb. I love staying in welcoming homes that I book on Airbnb. And it got me thinking, my home could do the same for somebody else.

I put so much work into this house. My wife put most of the work in, but we put a lot of time and energy into this place. So, why not use it as a spot to help other people feel comfortable while they are away from home? And think about it. If you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the costs of your own trip. You get paid for taking a vacation. And the extra income you make can be put toward an upcoming trip, a splurge you've been eyeing, home improvement projects.

So, if you've got some holiday travel or any other travel coming up, hosting is a pretty cool and unique way to make some of your money back. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. You know, it's what what you said about Jesus. I just want to come back to that for a second. I feel a little bit like a fraud talking about Jesus at all, given that I was raised by atheists and um half Jewish and had a bar mitzvah and all that stuff.

But I I you know, I spent a lot of time covering faith and spirituality when I worked at ABC where we both worked for a while. Um, and I'm, you know, I I had a friend, uh, I haven't talked to him in a couple years, Gabe Lions, quite a prominent evangelical pastor, and he used to talk about, about, about, uh, wearing Jesus goggles. Um, Jesus, you know, you know, I don't know him and I I you read the Bible and I don't who knows how faithful that is to the what the dude actually said in real life.

And there are lots of historical questions, but he seems to embody what um another uh um religious figure who I really respect often says uh that I'm I'm talking about Father Gregory Bole who's a LA uh uh priest who who works with gang members past and present. And he talks about Jesus or God embodying the spirit of no matter whatness, like the loving whoever crosses their path no matter what. even if they've done horrible things. That's not to say consequences are out of the question. It's just that there's a an understanding of of uh past conditions creating current behavior and uh innate goodness that that unless we're deeply unhealthy that we all have.

And Gabe uh used to talk about wearing Jesus goggles just as he moved through the world. And that's before I got into meditation. But you know in the dharma in meditation we you know we we practice you know there's no god involved but we practice meditation that is designed to boost our friendliness quotient or our compassion quotient and it really does give you those goggles. No belief required. So I'm yammering at this point. But does any of what I'm saying land for you? No it is.

And I and I think when you I think the problems people have with religions and where people sort of maybe lose their way is is when they get too technical and they try to be too precise and and they try to sort of make it more complex. If you just sort of simplify the message and what you're talking about, don't judge others. Be a good person. It's more than than than just about you. Like the stuff that that that Jesus was preaching, if you sort of just bring it to that level, try to live your life that way, you're going to be a good person.

Um, you know, I [clears throat] mentioned the the the the sex abuse scandal and and I think obviously horrific because of the victims and what happened to these children and maybe probably the worst thing that's ever happened um at least in modern times to to Catholics and to Christians, right? Um, but I think what was what was so hurtful about that entire episode that that it was done by people who, you know, so many had put faith in who had these people that others had listened to and those people lost their way as well.

And again, I I I think power corrupts. I I think when you when you make things too complex, that can corrupt, too. When you think you have all the answers, that corrupts and that that moves you further and further away from what I think Jesus was teaching. Um, and I'll be honest with you, I didn't think we were going to be talking about this today, but it's but it's a it's it's a it's a good conversation and I think it's a healthy one to have. You know, one of the many things I like about you is you're a person of faith who also meditates, which is a great because a lot of people who are Christian or any other uh religion worry about meditation being from, you know, somehow uh against their pre-existing beliefs, but that that's well well you tell me h how did you come around to meditation being okay?

Yeah, I you know it's funny because meditation some people have argued I'm sure you know this that that Jesus meditated as well. Um because you can sometimes be in a mode of such deep prayer that you are also meditating. Again just putting this out there. I'm not saying that Jesus, you know, was meditating. I'm saying some people have interpreted that because his prayer was so deep that that he might have reached a meditative state which which he might have. Um I got through meditation in a really funny way, Dan.

And this is a completely honest story. You wrote the book 10% or happier about your journey with meditation. I had just gotten to where we worked together at ABC News. And the first thing people told me when I got there, they said, "You got to read Dan's book because it has all the gossip about ABC." And I was like, "Oh, okay." I was like, "Okay, I got to read this guy's book cuz I don't I mean, there's a lot of people here I don't know. I don't know like the last 10, 15 years of this of this newsroom." And uh Dan has been here and he wrote about it because a lot of what was happening in the newsroom brought you to meditation.

And so I read your book and your story and everything you were saying and your anxieties. I mean it just rang true. It's like, you know, I I I I've lived it. I I knew exactly what you were talking about. I was not at your level. I had not had the same experiences as you had because you like you said you're a few years older than me, but I understood what you were going through inside. I mean, I completely understood what you were going through inside.

So I was like, let me try this out. And I started with your app. And I, you know, I started with the app doing the guided meditations and started, you know, just sort of like the instructions you gave, 5 minutes a day to 10 minutes a day to maybe twice a day. U and then it's grown from there to now I do, uh, I'll do 10 minutes every morning, but I'll also do 10 minutes of sort of visualizations, positive affirmations, affirmations, affirmations, uh, and then some more prayer.

And so like if it's a good day, you know, I'm there I'm I'm there 25 30 minutes, but it's I come out of it, I feel great. I feel it feels like a workout. That's the way I explain it to people, you know? Uh I just feel I feel it makes me feel better. It does. I mean, it's obviously a catchy title and has sold millions of copies for a reason. Even if the session of meditation feels shitty, I still it's still worth doing. In fact, I could argue that the the tougher the workout, the more the benefit, you know, like the grittier stuff you're confronting or fatigue or distraction or whatever, like it's you're really working the mind.

And so, I always feel great. And it's just like exercise. If you if you're not in the gym for two weeks and then you go back to the gym, you're going to be sore. And if you don't meditate for two weeks and you try to go back to it, your mind's going to be wandering and you're you're going to be in a lot of places. I I've also found that and I think it's sort of the we live in this time where we're inundated, you know, like me, somebody who like I talk about exhausting life.

If I'm walking, I'm listening to a podcast, I'm listening to a book on uh an audio book, I I'm reading something, I'm constantly reading the news, I'm always engaged in some type of media. I love music, I'm listening to music. So, there are very few times when I'm when it's silent. And that's when I meditate, when it's it's it's silence. And I find some of your best ideas, some of your best thoughts, you can figure out problems when you sit in that meditation. And maybe that wasn't even the purpose, but then it comes to your and it's always like it's always sort of as as Oprah would say, that aha moment where I I think, wow, I wasn't even thinking about this, but it just came to me because in the silence it sort of emerges.

Um, and it's a powerful tool. And the best thing about it is that it's free.99. So once you figure it out, you don't have to pay anything. Um, and it's just uh it's one of those great things. And so I thank you for that, Dan, because I honestly like I don't think if I would have read your book, I would have started meditating. started meditating. started meditating. And just to say this thing about ideas coming, there's some neuroscience, I believe, to support this idea. Um that that when you you know, it's like um the guy from Madmen, Don Drapery, people asked him why, how do you come up with these great slogans?

And he would say, well, I work all day and then I go to the movies. And when you put your brain in relaxation mode, it's why we have ideas in the shower. um you put your brain in relaxation mode, connections get made that wouldn't otherwise get made. And so that's that's you're definitely not alone or making that up. And on the thing about Jesus meditating, I don't I don't know if he did, although our former colleague Paula Ferris, who's a devout evangelical Christian, used to point out to me that the word meditation shows up a lot in both the Old and New Testament.

But but there but there is um there is I believe some neuroscience to show that the brain states of deep prayer really rep resemble the brain states of deep meditation. So something's happening here and some prayers you know if you say an our father or hail Mary a and again I just want to be very clear here because I I I don't want to get in trouble but I'm not afraid to say these things. When you say our father or a hail Mary, you know, you you you are are saying a repetitive prayer and you're either praying to to the Virgin Mary or you're praying to Jesus and to God.

Um I have never done um uh is it uh transcendental meditation? meditation? meditation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I know that you you have a word sometimes, right, that you sort of repeat to yourself, a mantra. I I've heard this on your podcast. And when I first heard that, it reminded me a little bit of of these prayers because even though you're you you know you're you're praying several words and several sentences and they're their full thoughts to who you're praying to. It the repetition sort of reminded me of the mantra as well.

Uh the way you guys were describing it. Yeah, I think that's that there's probably a lot to that. Let's just briefly touch exercise because I know that's a part of your daily or dailyish routine for you know maintaining your sanity. Uh you just say a few words about why it's so important to you. I think it's a a high stress job and you know like I like I said we are so plugged in from the moment I wake up and I know it's not healthy but it's just it is who I am and it's just the nature of the business.

From the moment I wake up I'm getting news and I'm getting emails about news and updates about stories. And this morning right when I woke up it was the suicide letter of you know this shooter who went into the NFL building and and unfortunately killed several people. And it's and that's the first thing I'm seeing when I wake up. And it's just it's out of habit, you know? You just kind of grab the phone. It's I'm seeing the alerts and I want to make sure I haven't missed anything that's going to jolt me out of bed because because maybe I have to get to New York quickly or I have to get on the air somehow.

Um so because of that, I have the meditation in the morning, but then I have, you know, right after that meditation, maybe an hour or so after I've done some calls, I I I I get in the gym and I'll either I'll either go for a run, I'll lift weights, or I'll I'll I'll play tennis or something. and it's just to kind of get an hour of physical exercise in. And I just I feel better. I just think it's something you need to do. Every study we have done on Alzheimer's, on dementia, on aging, every study goes back to keeping an active life, keeping your mind active, and keeping your body active.

And every time we do these stories, I'm like, "Guys, we've done 10 10 of these and they they keep finding the same things." But there's always, you know, one extra nugget that that that makes it newsworthy. But at its core, every doctor, every study has shown keeping an active mind, keeping an active body will will help you live longer. And I mean, I I'd love to live longer. So So I'm so I'm I'm going to be doing it. But and it's something good. And I think, you know, just having worked out as a as a kid with my friends growing up, it just it it's something that sort of I think connects me to my past, too.

And it's it's fun. And playing tennis is I'm a terrible tennis player, but playing tennis is fun. And talking trash with your friends while you're playing. And that's that that that's actually where I excel at. Uh not not at any anything actually technical. It's the talking trash. Um trash. Um trash. Um that to me is great, you know. Yeah. I think talking trash with your friends is under valued as a mechanism for health. Um you don't even have to talk trash, but just doing something, hanging out with your friends.

I mean, there's a ton of data that nobody's talking about on Instagram to show that if in this era of optimization, like your relationships are the thing to optimize. Oh, yeah. I I I mean, there's this great book um I which I don't know if you've read on the 8020 rule, and I don't know if you've read that book, but it is it's great. It's written by a guy who he worked in finance, but he was also uh a gambler. He loved gambling. He's got this great this great line in the book that says earning money is is great, but winning money, oh, there's nothing better than winning money.

Uh, but anyway, he's has this this this mathematical formula that it's really easy to understand. Um, 20% of your friends bring you 80% of your happiness, right? And it works for everything, right? 20% of your sources bring you 80% of your stories. Like I it it 80% of your stress probably comes from like this 20% of your life, you know? It's it's things like that. And um and after reading the book, it puts a lot of things in perspective in a sense of like how do you want to spend your day and how do you want to spend your time and who you spend time with?

And it and it's true. I mean, it's like Dan, it's when you spend time with that core group that knows you, you spend time with the family you love, you're always, you know, it's you're going to maximize your time. You start to sort of freelance and oh, maybe we'll go to this, maybe we'll go to that. I know that's not you, Dan. Um that's when it starts to get sort of sort of be a waste of time and you don't get that same experience, I think.

All right. Would you classify yourself as an introvert? No, I don't I don't think I'm an introvert. No, I mean I I we've we've we've worked with a lot of introverts. It's, you know, I I don't think I'm an introvert. No, I'm I'm an extrovert, but I can I I can get very deep inside of myself. My wife, I'm sure, can tell you that at times I am an introvert at home, but um I I don't think I am. But I I've and I just say that because I I know true intro introverts who are some of the most talented people I've ever met, some of the most talented people I've ever worked with.

And it's funny because we work in a business where, you know, it's television and it's a spectacle and things are big and you have to be very creative and they can be very quiet people, but as soon as they get into an edit room or as soon as they get into a script, it's like, you know, they they they are true geniuses. And so I don't think I'm an introvert in that way. I'm I'm usually out pretty outgoing. How would you describe yourself, Dan? I'm a supermax extrovert.

Like I Yeah, I was going to say you're you're Yeah, you're out there. You're a guy. You're you're like you're talking to people people people when you were saying uh you know maybe I won't go to this thing or whatever like I'm the guy I'll go to the extra thing like my wife will I'll go by yeah I'll take the risk I won't go twice if it sucks but like I'll try it because I'm always looking to you know meet new people. I love that. Um you know in terms of ex introverts we both worked with the I hope he won't mind me saying this.

I'll text him just to confirm but the guy the name that came to mind is George Stephanopoulos. really shy dude. Well, it just got I don't even know if it's shy because George is very confident, but I remember he told me a story where he said um I think he was interviewing with Clinton and I I think he told Clinton, "I'm the guy who wrote Dukakus' jokes." It was something like that. And it was like they both started laughing because, you know, clearly Dukakus had no sense of humor.

Um and and and George is George is a very cool guy, brilliant brilliant guy. uh and a a a very strong interviewer. But yeah, he's not uh he's not out sch smoozing. That's not him. All right, let me ask you a question that I I suspect you get all the time. We're in a quite a stressful news cycle, at least for for many people. I think for the people listening to this show, it's a stressful news cycle. Um there may be folks u there may be folks who are loving this news cycle.

But whether whatever you feel about Trump, there's a lot going on. And then of course there's wars in Ukraine and and and Gaza and and um climate stuff. So it's a it's a there's a lot to pay attention to and we now have this technology that floods us um you know right on our phone. Um so what advice have you thought a little bit about I know you have to like just be drinking from the fire hose all the time but when people ask you like how do you how can I consume the news without losing my mind or be you know coiled up in rage all the time.

Do you have any thoughts on like what you would recommend? I'm in the news business, so I want to be mindful of how I'm gonna answer this question. I I think you got to give yourself a break sometimes if you're getting a crazy amount of news alerts. You know, if you subscribe to four or five different news organizations and their news alerts, I mean, your flo your phone is blowing up ev every probably every hour and you're probably getting the same news alerts at, you know, just just from different news groups.

So, maybe dial it back there. Um, I would I and I would say just stick with the news organizations that that you love and that you you respect and you trust. I think Nightly News is the gold standard because we're we're down the middle. I I I've I I I learned this from working here, but I I I tell this to all of our staff, too. We work for the viewers, so we're out there working for them. Um, and then, you know, I I would be mindful of the the opinion-based journalism you're getting.

I'm not saying run away from it because I believe I believe the news business is like any business like just like the coffee business, right? Some people like their coffee strong, some people like espresso, some people want crazy lattes. The the news business is not unlike that. There's something for everyone in America. That is capitalism, right? That being said, just just be mindful of what you're getting and how you're getting it. And if you're getting it from friends or from Facebook or not verified sources, just just be mindful of how you're sharing that kind of stuff.

That that's the only I would say, right? But everyone's an adult and they can do whatever they want. And a lot of people, you know, have turned to to alternative news sources because in some ways we have let them down. And I'm not saying we like NBC News. I'll say we as sort of the media in general. And it's upsetting, but I I always think that we can maybe win those folks back and there are still millions of people who have stayed with us because they they know what what we're doing.

It's definitely a tricky time and it's a strange time where you have to go and fact check three different times when you get a news report and it's just it's upsetting that that that Americans feel they have to do that now. It's been 4 years roughly since I retired and I would say, you know, was still a a heated time when I was in the game, but it's much more divisive and toxic and polarized now. Do you do you find that you're kind of walking on eggshells to a certain extent because it's so easy to piss people off?

I don't. And I I'm not trying to be koi here or not tell you the truth because I know what we're doing, right? And and and if you stay focused and and you and you are reporting the truth and you're sticking to the facts, I don't I don't write these mantras, but I truly believe them and I say them in every interview without fear or favor, right? Without fear or favor. I I believe in that and tough but fair because I think I think our job is to be tough in the sense that we're supposed to ask the tough questions because we're working for those people at home.

So, and we're in the we're in we're in those briefing rooms. So, we should ask tough questions, but we got to be fair. And so, I don't I don't walk on eggshells. Do I think our reporting has to be bulletproof? Yes. But it it it always has to be bulletproof. Since I got into this business, anytime you did an investigation, anytime you did any kind of major story, you had to make sure you were button up and it would go through layers. And we still have those layers at NBC News.

Some of the the others, they they don't even have a layer. And we have a few layers, you know, to make sure that we're right. Obviously, we have a bigger target because we have bigger audiences, but going in every night, I know that we have tried our hardest and we have done our best as a news organization to present the stories that are on. And when something's not ready, one of the greatest rules in journalism, when in doubt, leave it out. And and if we're not 100% sure, if we're not bulletproof on something, we're going to hold it.

Yeah. To me, none of that sounds koi. Like I I I having been in, you know, a job similar to yours, the the truth kind of is a shield. So I might piss people off, but I I I have checked it twice. I've checked it thrice even. And and it's not just me. I mean, one of the things that really made me feel protected was uh because I'm aware that I, like everybody else, have biases was the fact that there's editorial oversight. Like, it's going through several layers.

Your producer who's with you in the field, the producer uh and the anchor back in New York, legal and standards department, uh they're all eyeballing this stuff before, you know, it comes out of my mouth on television. And that really and biases can still be in there because I think there are probably cultural biases, you know, shot through the mainstream media for sure, but the in my experience inside the belly of the beast, it was a lot of well-intentioned people trying to cover the news, as you say, without fear or favor.

And I think also I and I've I've I talk about this a lot. I like to think of the newsroom as sort of a family style dinner. And what I mean about that is that I want to hear from people. So, if I I I like to ask questions in the rooms like, "Is this the lead? What do we think about this? Hey, what do you think about this?" Because I want to I want to make sure people are speaking up and hearing because there are a lot of different people in the newsroom from different backgrounds and I want to make sure we're hearing from everybody to make sure we're getting it right.

Uh, and that's the benefit of having sort of a a bustling bubbling newsrooms as and you've worked in these newsrooms. Unfortunately, what happened during the pandemic is that, you know, everyone sort of went into work from home and into their silos of, you know, just sort of working in front of a computer and trying to do their own trying to and trying to do their own jobs. Now people have come back over the last 2 three years to the office place and it's like some people I'm sure it's taken time to kind of come back and and talk and be and it's okay to be loud and to say what do you think about this or I think we should do this and that's what I want cuz I think that I think the journalism gets better the more we sort of talk and share ideas and and and everyone has a sort of piece of the pie.

I completely agree. What I found is as I've gotten older is that in the news business when I was coming up, it was dominated by people who really didn't want to hear your opinion. Yeah. No, that is true. And that I took a that kind of hierarchical militaristic style into my um now I'm hearkening back to my 360 review again where you know my the people who work for me were like, "Dude, you know, you say you want openness, but like do you really?" And um I've really had to work hard to actually mean what I was saying.

was saying. was saying. It it's it's a really good point because I've thought about that as well because we both worked for some people that were I think incredibly talented who had great ideas and were and were great newsroom leaders and they knew instantly whether something was a story or not a story or what was going on. But they they made decisions and I think that is that is you can do both. I think you can be that person, Dan, and you can also be the person to say, "Well, let's hear let's let's let's" and I like I I love the phrase, "Let's red team it," which red team is like, "What's the complete opposite idea?

What's like what's like the what's like what's like something out of left field?" Like, "Let's lead with this." Like, oh, okay. Cuz I think that just helps people out because again, it's good to have people that are making decisions that are effective leaders, but also you got to listen to your people, too. I think I love that. Let's red team it. I'm going to steal that. We don't have a ton of time left, but I I do want to hear about your parents because I actually, you know, I knew about your Cuban heritage and you are um and I will have said this in the intro, the first Hispanic uh uh anchor of a major evening news broadcast, which is awesome.

Well, it's not awesome that it took this long, but it's awesome that you're the one. Your parents' story, I didn't really know all of the details. And so can you share some of it because it it it makes this achievement I think even more meaningful. meaningful. meaningful. Yeah. I want to tell a quick story and we have time don't worry but I'm going to tell a quick story Dan. I don't know if you remember this but um when Fidel Castro died you remember this on on weekend GMA.

weekend GMA. weekend GMA. So Fidel Castro dies and I get awakened either by my wife or a text alert that Fidel Castro has died. And I've thought about this moment as a journalist as a Cuban American my entire life. My my parents have talked about this moment. It was Cubans thought it was going to be sort of this this turning point in Cuba, though it wasn't. And I remember I opened up the New York Times app and the first line of the report was I think it said something like the prince of the revolution has died some something to that effect.

and I of the obit in the New York Times and I immediately wrote an email to you and I think maybe to Paula Ferris uh and the EP of the show and I said listen I don't know if you guys are going to be covering the story but you know you should really think about two perspectives sometimes there is this romanticism that's written about Fidel Castro that is completely off base he was a killer and a liar and I sent you the email and then you write back do you want to come on and I said okay and I didn't really think it through but I said Sure.

And we came on and we reported the news. I think we had Jim Avia, maybe even in I don't know if he was in Cuba. I don't know if we had sent him to Havana, but I think he might have been there. And then I remember we came out and um you came to me and I said that and I broke down and it was kind of wild because I broke down on live TV and I sort of shared the stories of how we grew up having to send food and money and and and put medicine and packets of Kool-Aid into greeting cards and hide them because the government would steal it because there was no no money or food.

It was sort of a crazy moment on live television, but um I'm glad I did that, you know, because that's like that was the whole reason why I had sort of written you because I didn't want the I didn't want it to be sort of whitewashed in a way of of saying, "Oh, this this leader, you know, some people say he was a hero because he stood up to the United States, but he was a terrible person. He was a dictator in in the worst form, you know, and he destroyed a a beautiful country." country." country." And it was just cool to that, you know, you sort of you saw the passion in the email and you're you realized you're like, "Okay, let's let's put Tom on." And I I got to be honest with you, I don't know if if they were happy with how that turned out, but I think it was important management.

It was definitely a very powerful and impactful television and journalism, but I had heard some stories, and again, they could be rumors, I don't know, but like that maybe some weren't super happy about the way that turned out, but it was real. I mean, it it it doesn't get more real than that. than that. than that. I remember thinking he was incredibly powerful and brave. Not that you had planned it, but um to to not stuff it down and just to show some basic humanity given given what you and your family had gone through.

Yeah. If the bosses didn't like it, I think they were behind the times. Like we we're in a different world where being a full-fledged human is allowed. You know, it's interesting because people have have asked me about bias in the media and I I've heard about bias in the media since I was a child because every time Fidel Castro was interviewed, my parents would have sort of a postgame, you know, like with all like the uncles and aunts and cousins and like talk about was that interview biased or, you know, were they too soft on him?

And I remember these conversations as a child. So, I remember hearing about sort of bias in the media and how you had to be tough but fair and ask tough questions as a little kid before my parents had any idea that I was going to be in this business. Um, but that has been sort of top of my mind since I was a young since I was a young person. I got a better sense of your personal and professional trajectory reading a little bit more about how your parents had immigrated and and not under easy circumstances.

It's never easy to lo to to to feel like you need to flee your homeland, but it's not it's also not easy to get into this country. And they they you have some stories that you might want to talk about, but but you grew up engaged with the world in ways that most children are not. Oh. Oh. Completely engaged in the world. and uh conversations about communism, conversations about presidential elections, uh conversations about what was happening with immigration with the rules surrounding Cubans that were trying to leave Cuba, uh the Cuban rafter crisis, the Soviet Union collapsing and then pulling out of Cuba.

I mean, these this was like a Tuesday for us. Like, we were we were living through all this in the 80s and 90s. And so, watching news in both English and Spanish was was an everyday affair. and talking about it was very common. I mean, we talked about all things in life, you know, we weren't like this was dominated our life, but I remember a lot of conversations at any time like someone would call from Cuba, everyone had to be quiet because it was an important call and it was what family needed what and what do we had to send and and how this person was doing and this person might arrive, can we help them?

Um, but yeah, that that sort of shaped my childhood in that regard. I think a lot of immigrants and the son of immigrants have a similar experience. Cuba just happened to be a very active player on the global stage and I think that's why it was so at the forefront of of our news viewing and sort of in our lives. Um, and then you had I was surrounded, you know, my community was 99% CubanAmerican. It was literally all my friends, of course, all my relatives, but I mean baseball teams.

I mean, there there were obviously other kids who were, you know, they were there were people that were from Miami or grew up in Florida that were that were that weren't from Cuba, but by and large in the ' 80s and '90s, I mean, it was northwards of 90%. To say the least, immigration is a prominent story in the news right now, and you've got to cover it. How does your personal history, your family's personal history color your coverage, and and and you know, do you have to police whatever biases you you might have?

I I know I'm under a microscope. So my mom left right after Castro takes over. So her family gets out pretty quickly. They lived in Havana and they come to Fort Lauderdale and and life is very hard for them pretty fast. Money runs out and they they have to start everyone has to start working pretty pretty fast including my uncle who was a child and my grandmother who who had not worked in her life because they they had come from an affluent family in Cuba and then suddenly she's taking on multiple jobs.

And then my dad's side of the family, they wanted to kind of wait out Castro a little bit and see what would happen. I mean, because it it wasn't like politics were incredibly stable in Cuba. So, there was always the chance that maybe someone would overthrow Castro. So, they they stood back and waited about 6 years and they they saw things get really bad in those six years. So my dad is getting to a point where his parents don't want him to go to school anymore because they're teaching them that, you know, Fidel will provide and God will not provide and and basically all sort of like the the the 10 the ten commandments, if you will, of communism and and they're just seeing scary things happen.

Uh political disscent doesn't exist anymore. Uh he starts to devalue the currency. I mean, things are changing. There's obviously things with the United States are getting worse and worse by the day. So they get out and they they go through Mexico six years later and they have to actually cross through the Rio Grand. They are political refugees, but they weren't able to fly out of Cuba because at this point Casper sort of shut everything down. So they crossed through the Rio Grand and my father and my my aunt had to cross uh the Rio Grand with a coyote and they get they cross over.

They had they didn't see their parents for a while. It wasn't a long time, but it was kind of one of those moments that my dad obviously would never forget as a child cuz he was 12 years old. And then my parents, my grandparents come over and they make their way by bus to Miami and they start a life there. They they are political exiles and they start that process and they start from scratch from nothing, you know, no money, not knowing the language and little by little trying to build up their lives as well just like my mom's family did and struggled a lot just like every Cuban did and and many Cubans uh who came over had it probably even worse than my parents did.

There were a lot of people that came over as children without their parents. The p was called Peter Pan flights. Pedro Pan, Jeff Bezos's dad, Mike Bezos, is actually a Pedro Pang kid where basically things were so bad in Cuba. Imagine this, Dan. People were putting their children on planes and flying them to the United States with the help of the Catholic Church and then these these American families would take in these these Cuban refugee kids and they would raise them and some kids never saw their parents again.

It's crazy. So they live through that and that's kind of like the backdrop of of us being very engaged, at least me in the news and watching the news. So you ask how I cover immigration. I know there's a microscope on me. I'm the son of immigrants, but I also have a superpower in the sense that just because I can speak Spanish, I can I can get now the story of the person who is either being detained or who's trying to cross into the United States.

I know we are a country of laws. I I believe in this country. I think it's the greatest country in the planet. my parents taught us to be very proud Americans. Um, and I I know that there's there's laws and you got to follow the laws. And so, as a reporter, I take all that out of it and I just use what I have, which is my skills knowing that I can speak Spanish, I can get the story on this side, I can speak to Border Patrol on this side, obviously in English, and to understand what the immigrant experience is, that someone has to get up and walk from Venezuela through Central America into into the US.

what is going on in their life that that they've been compelled to do this with children and then knowing that there's a reality that they're they're not going to get in now that they have been stopped and they have been they have been caught and they're likely going back. Uh it's telling that story and and that's what I feel my job is. That's it. That is my job to tell what happened. My job is not to advocate for one side or the other. Now, if there are abuses on either side, we we will report that and we will always put that on on television.

But like you said, I mean, the truth is where I'm headed and that that that's the only thing that I'm concerned about. concerned about. concerned about. Let me ask you just as a final question here. here. here. And I don't know if this is the right button-up question cuz I have no idea where this is going to go, but but I read that you hand out this book that I had never heard of uh called The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life. You hand it out to to people.

I give it to people. It's not it's not like I'm not like Dan Harris going to like that Saturday party with a trunk full of the uh 10% Happier books like just like flinging them like I'll go to that new party. I'm going to hawk 20 more books. Um so uh no I don't it out but I give it to people people who like to get uh people who like to get to who like to think about life. And Hoda copy is somebody I gave it to because she loves she loves thinking and talking and quotes and just what is our purpose out here and she's just such a a great teacher and friend.

But I gave it to her because I was really touched by the book and there are so many great quotes. Essentially, the book is about uh a kid who grows up in South Africa and his his family buys a preserve and they rebuild the preserve and they make it this this this beautiful area and and it's his connection growing up with the guides who are the locals, the the people who live in Africa um who go out and track the lions and what he's learned from them and and the and sort of the the main focus of the book is this quote which is I don't know where I'm going but I know how to get there.

And the lion tracker listens to that because the lion tracker can get lost suddenly and they may not know where they're going, but they see they see a blade of grass sort of folded in a strange way. They see what may be a print another way and they follow that. So again, they don't know where they're going, but they know how to get there. And to me, that was like that's it, man. That that's what this is about. That's what this journey is about. And it's sort of listening to yourself and believing in yourself and not knowing where you're going to end up, but just sort of knowing how to get there.

Uh, another great quote, I I mentioned this one to Hoda, too, is that, you know, too much chaos is unstable, but too little is not living. And I kind of believe that, too. It's also a denial of reality because everything's changing all the time. And if it feels stagnant, then you're you're missing something big. Yeah, I agree with that. And I'm going to send you a book. I'm going to send you a couple books. All right. All right. I appreciate it, Tom. So, I'm grateful to you for making the time.

You're a busy dude. Um, I really appreciate it and also just super happy for as I said before, happy for you, proud of you. It's just great to see. Dan, it's been an honor to be here. You are somebody that I have looked up to. you are such a gifted communicator and I'm so happy that you are sort of still communicating with people in a in a in probably a much bigger platform now and helping people because I mean 10% are happier definitely changed my life and I know you've changed a lot of lives so thank you for for for hearing me out and listening listening to my All right.