Diagnosed Sociopath On How Their Minds Work | Dr. Patric Gagne

When it comes to sleep, consistency matters, and so does having a bedtime routine you'll actually stick with. Hatch Sleep Clock makes it easier. It tracks your sleep right from your nightstand. No wearable required. Instead of just getting a sleep score, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep plus recommendations to build a routine that works for you. Try Hatch Sleep Clock, the sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on Hatch.co and Amazon. The School of Greatness is proudly sponsored by Amika Insurance. You know what they say, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So go with Amika and get coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers. One that looks after what's important to you together. Auto, home, life, and more. Coverage that fits your unique needs. Amika helps you protect what matters most. Visit Amika.com and get a quote today. If you're a small business, you know one great hire can change everything. Maybe it's someone to keep the day running smoothly, find the right producer, or take work off your plate so you can focus on what you do best. Finding that person matters. Indeed sponsored jobs get you quality candidates when you need them most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. The School of Greatness is presented by CHAT GPT. CHAT GPT work, a new way to work in CHAT GPT, can help you organize multi-step projects. CHAT GPT work can use your app's connected tools and files to create things like landing pages, trackers, even web apps. You can also make CHAT GPT work more specialized by installing specific plugins. Put CHAT GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at CHATGPT.com by selecting work mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. You're outsourcing your emotional well-being and you don't realize you're doing it. That's a quote from our guest today, and I want to ask you a question. How much of your day is spent trying to make someone else happy? Saying yes when you actually mean no, changing who you are so they'll like you, replaying the conversation, reading the comments, wondering if you're enough. If that's you, I want you to hear this, you are not broken, but you may be handing your peace to someone else and asking them to hold it for you. In this conversation, you're going to learn why people-pleasing is really a form of dysfunctional love. You'll learn how to fill your own inner container so you stop needing others to fill it. You'll get the simple questions that teaches your kids their feelings matter, and you'll see why failing or admitting you're wrong doesn't make you a bad person. Dr. Patrick Gagne was diagnosed as a sociopath. She went on to earn her doctorate, writing her dissertation on sociopathy and worked as a therapist and a volunteer emergency trauma counselor. She is the author of Sociopath, a memoir, the story of growing up without the emotions everyone expected her to feel and learning to live with radical honesty. This is Dr. Patrick Gagne, episode 1995 on the School of Greatness. I'm fascinated by human dynamics and human behavior. You're an expert in this topic. I like understanding the human mind, human emotions, why people do the things they do. I'm just as fascinated. I just come at it from an antisocial perspective, whereas you come at it from a prosocial perspective. Isn't that interesting? That is something about psychopathy is that it's automatically assumed, oh, psychopaths can't feel. Psychopaths can feel. We feel all of the inherent emotions. Everyone's born with those inherent emotions. You have young kids. You didn't have to teach them to smile. You didn't have to teach them to cry, happiness, sadness, surprise, disgust. Your children are born with these emotions, but it's the social emotions that psychopaths struggle to understand, empathy, compassion, envy, remorse, guilt. Again, these emotions are taught mostly through modeling. If your daughter hits her sister, you're going to say, hey, we don't want to hit because your sister, it'll make her sad and you don't want your sister to be sad, do you? Your daughter will probably say, no, I don't, and that's how we learn empathy. Well, psychopaths don't learn emotions that way. Is that because they're not modeled by parents or by society or by- First of all, we struggle to understand inherent emotions, period. But because empathy and guilt and shame, et cetera, because it's modeled and you're using other like-minded children to do that modeling, for me, there were no like-minded children. So you're- You need other children to model. Well, you need someone else like you because in order to get into the mind of someone else, in order to imagine what that person is feeling, you have to be able to relate to them in some way, right? So in the example of your kids, your one daughter can almost certainly relate to what the other one is feeling. But for me, I understood that I didn't have these complex emotional developmental skills. I could see that my sister did. I could see that the kids around me did. So when it was time for someone to say, oh, you don't want Sarah to be sad, I remember just, no, I don't want Sarah to be sad. But what I was really thinking is, I don't know that I care. I mean, just because I don't care about someone's pain per se doesn't mean I want to cause pain, but I don't really think I care about whether she's happy or not. Interesting. And I also learned that saying that out loud was the fastest way to get into trouble. I'm sure. And that's where I learned to lie. When you grew up, you didn't have the ability to care that someone else was feeling pain? It's not that I didn't have the ability. It was just that I didn't, I understood it intellectually, but it didn't resonate with me emotionally. You understood, oh, this person's in pain. I shouldn't feel this, something, but I'm not feeling it. But I'm not feeling it. And admitting to that, saying to a caregiver. And they're like, something's wrong with you. Something's wrong with you. And back when I was a kid, we hardly had words for anxiety and depression, much less antisocial behaviors or conduct disorder or mood dysregulation, just, I mean, nobody had language for this. So I just learned, if someone asks you if you feel bad, always say yes. If someone asks you if you feel remorse, always say yes. And I learned to- No. So you're also lying to someone else. You're lying to yourself. Yes. I was never lying to myself, because I always knew that it was a lie. I knew it was a lie, but you're still, yeah, I guess, but you're lying to someone else, knowing it's a lie to you, in a sense. You're saying, I'm feeling something, and you're not. Correct. Right. Because I understood that I would get into trouble, and I often did get into trouble. I learned that really quickly. I would lie to my dad when I knew there would be a reaction, if he was gonna scream at me or if he was gonna yell at me or punish me, I'd be like, no, I didn't do it, I didn't take that candy, I didn't eat that thing, whatever it was. But it doesn't feel good to lie, even if it's a small lie, it never felt good, but I was like, I don't wanna feel the punishment, where I don't think I should be punished for this. Whether you're supposed to or not, I was like, I don't want to. And I think that's where, it's probably tough being a parent, because you want to create some type of discipline or teaching lesson or moment for young children. But if you're developing a child to lie because they know they're gonna always be in trouble or have some pain associated with something, then it's just tough to navigate that. Of course. It was interesting how you said that you didn't like lying. I had the opposite. You liked it? I loved it because it made me feel so safe. I never felt safer than when I had lied about a feeling, and they believed me, and I remember on the inside, it felt, okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I can breathe, yes. So in that way, I was not only learning to lie, but I was also internally rewarded for those lies. Wow. And that's really important because when you're talking about psychopathy and how many are pathological liars, automatically, the assumption is that there is some nefarious motivation behind that. And certainly- Like an evil motivation. Of course. And down the line, sure, that can be, yes. But where it develops is a coping mechanism, in much the same way you said, I didn't want to be in trouble, and all kids do this. But I remember my sister, who is incapable of telling a lie, even today. Her face gets red. You know when she's lying. And she can't do it. She can't do it. She can start, and then she'll bail. But it's clear that she had a very negative reaction, and I remember early on thinking, yeah, I have a very different reaction. And I remember feeling so safe. Once I understood my personality type, once I understood the motivations behind some of the behavior, I was engaging in why I felt so safe to lie, why I didn't feel the way that others felt. Once I became comfortable with that, I also made the decision, I'm not going to lie, ever. How old were you when you started to think about that? I was in my 20s, because it was very isolating, but more than that, it felt very claustrophobic. Constantly shape-shifting, emotional shift. Exhausting. Exhausting. Exhausting. Yes. But in order to do that effectively, to your point, you need a partner that can hold the information. Yes. And so many people do. They ask for the truth, but then they don't know how to contain it. They can't handle it. Yes. And that's tough, because it's hard for someone like me to not just instantly go back to lying. But what I had to do was basically say what you said, I don't care if I never have a friend in my entire life. I would rather have no friends than have friends that I have to constantly curate this falsified emotional experience. Wow. See how similar it is, though? It's very similar. And my guess is that you're not psychopathic. And yet- Well, I don't know what is the definition of a sociopath or psychopathic. Now the word sociopath and psychopath are pretty much interchangeable, because sociopath isn't used clinically. It's become clinically obsolete. Now when someone is diagnosed as either antisocial personality disorder or psychopath, psychopath has two categories, primary psychopathy and secondary psychopathy. Primary psychopathy is biological, very, very rare, incurable, untreatable. Secondary psychopathy, environmental, completely treatable. And these are people who have an inherent temperament that sort of predisposes them to deceit. We all know that kid in the classroom, the kindergartner that can tell a lie with no problem as opposed to my sister who as soon as she starts lying about a dinner reservation breaks out in a sweat. Wow. But there are kids that are just naturally gifted liars. It's not to say that every child with that temperament is going to become psychopathic, but it's certainly easier for them to progress in that direction. And they just, they have a hard time internalizing those social emotions. Is that more of a genetic, I don't want to call it defect, but is that a genetic trait that human beings have or is it an environmental trait? It's usually, it seems to be a combination of both, whereas primary psychopathy is believed to be biological and that there is no learning the social emotions for someone who is a primary psychopath. Is it like a wiring in the brain that is different? Is it an emotional, the nervous system is broken or off in some way? What is that? They're not sure, but a lot of research points to oxytocin, which is the, um, that, that let the love hormone for trust building. They're still trying to pinpoint what it is exactly. But again, because that type of disorder, because that type of psychopathy is so rare, I think 0.004% of the population, there really is no research or funding. Whereas secondary psychopathy is believed to represent at least upwards of 5% of the population. Really? These, not only are these cases treatable, but the pediatric precursors for secondary psychopathy, um, oppositional defiant disorder, mood dysregulation disorder, conduct disorder, completely, completely treatable and preventable. So with the right screeners, you could start screening kids for these disorders and start treating them. And then you would prevent most of the secondary psychopath set. So psychopath and sociopath are the same thing, roughly because sociopath is clinically obsolete in much the same way that multiple personality disorder is not called, I believe, dissociative disorder. They've changed the name. They've changed the name to reduce stigma. I'm not sure that replacing it with psychopath is reducing, but I'll tell you what, they're not. We don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. What I'm hearing you say is 5% of the population is psychopathic. Not only that, but because most of, so the PCL is the gold standard for testing for psychopathy. That test is designed to be administered within the prison system. You need to, a requirement of the PCL is that you have to have at least evidence of a criminal record. So when you consider that most of the testing for psychopathy takes place in prisons, there's no way that percentage isn't much higher. Interesting. And most people... 5% in prisons, it's no that's 5% of the population, but if they're only testing mostly in prison You know that number is higher interesting. You think there's more outside of oh You're just having gotten caught for doing something. Yes screen and they've and they have learned to They have learned to be disciplined. They have learned to slide under the radar and Shifts and and lie and live those that claustrophobic life where they're because understand just because I don't connect The way that I'm quote-unquote supposed to doesn't mean that I don't crave connection Yes, and you know in in my own way. I always wanted that that home life I always wanted that. I always remember feeling like I was standing outside of department store glass looking at a like a window display because I really do I Understand the value of society I understand the value of relationships I don't connect to relationships the way that interesting most people do but that's not wrong. It's different. It is different Yeah, the thing I love about this book, you know It's funny that your book cover says sociopath and it's a photo of you I'm assuming when you were like five or seven years old, you know exactly when this was this fourth grade Okay, maybe eight nine years old. Yeah that it's funny because this photo of you It's beautiful because it's kind of connecting you to the inner child inside of you when we realize adults that we have such unique and for most people challenging life experiences that we faced typically coming from childhood That have developed us into who we are as adults all of our beliefs all of our behaviors all of our thoughts emotions the way we feel is stemming from earlier childhood in some way shape or form and when we can learn to have Compassion for the younger version of us who dealt with all these messy emotions that we didn't understand this world We're entered in we didn't choose to enter or maybe we did but we didn't understand why we chose it And all of a sudden we're supposed to fit in and belong and understand Human dynamics and what's right and wrong from a young age. It's very confusing and complex. Yeah, and when we can have grace for the younger version of ourselves Then I think we can start to grow heal and develop into who we can truly become and so I love that This is a photo of yourself when you're younger on the cover your book And I just think it's beautiful for your own personal healing journey as well. Thank you It's funny too because when people talk about psychopaths in a negative way and say things like They should all be locked up or a lot of a lot of clinicians have used the word Irredeemable when dealing with right with psychopaths and I always like to ask so when did they become it irredeemable? five six seven eight Twelve when does that scale tip and it because I do remember what it was like to be a kid. I do have such Strong memories of feeling alone and I think the memories of myself as a child are part of the reason why I have been able to develop Some degree of of a natural empathic response because I can empathize with her Yeah So if I can empathize with her Then I can sort of use that as a branch to empathize with others Is that how you learn to empathize with other people? I think later at first I learned by I Had was I had read a research study on Psychopaths and I remember thinking well, what are these people doing? What are all these people doing to to cope? I mean, are they all breaking into houses? Like I am are they all stealing cars? Like this sucks. There are so many people like me and there isn't any book on any shelves. There isn't any therapist in The directory with it. Yeah. No, what are these people doing? And I remember thinking oh, you know what this feels like what they say Empathy is I can imagine what it's like To for someone else to feel a similar way and I was like, oh, this is why it's hard for me To identify to empathize because I have a hard time empathizing with neurotypical people, but I don't have as hard a time Right, and and that's the same neurotypical people have a hard time empathizing with Neurodivergent people so it's really the same and I find it really fascinating how Easy it is to vilify an entire category of people simply because you can't empathize with them because it's exactly what you're saying about me I'm a villain because I can't empathize with you, but you're not a villain because you can't empathize with me. Yeah in your You know opinion, I guess they said you said the research has been 5% of sociopaths Just under under 5% in the population. You think it's more. Yeah, right What do you think is a real percentage of psychopaths or sociopaths in the world? Versus the percentage of neurodivergent individuals in the world. Well, it's tough because Neurodivergence Encompasses such a swath of different can be like half the population. It really can but I think in terms of psychopathy Especially if you're also including antisocial personality disorder on a fancy seven I'd say about seven percent percent and it's funny because that's right up there with anxiety disorder and depression And yet if you go into any bookstore, you're gonna see Shelf upon shelf of books on how to deal with anxiety how to deal with depression But the only books that you see about sociopathy psychopathy or antisocial personality disorder are books on how to protect yourself from how to spot how to keep yourself from becoming a victim of and I mean and that's The main reason I wrote this because I remember so often going into the bookstore and seeing nothing and I just thought well One there I'm gonna write something because I wanted other I wanted kids like that to have something representation matters and when the only representation of a psychopath on television is a serial killer or a Monster, I remember thinking Okay, everything I'm hearing about sociopaths is evil monster serial killer criminal But I don't feel evil and I mean, yes, I have the capacity to do Things that other people aren't but I don't I'm not doing it because I'm angry I'm not doing it because I hate or I'm trying to hurt So is it's like a situation where I'm just gonna wake up one morning and want to kill somebody I remember being afraid like really yes, because I remember reading that schizophrenia is usually diagnosed late teens early 20s and it is it is similar where You start hearing voices you start being told to do things that you don't necessarily want to do No But it's good Yes, and it and and I and I was thinking is so is this like schizophrenia? I do I feel fine today But tomorrow I'm gonna wake up and suddenly my brain is going to start becoming altered. I didn't know you betrayed me Yeah, I didn't know and then as I started researching it and I started understanding the sort of morals Like yeah, the information the the complete composite of psychopathy should be available You know that these extremes have have grown to comprise the entirety of this disorder, but that's not accurate in in much the same way that Think of it this way What if the only type of cancer we were willing to acknowledge was stage four cancer? Okay, who would do that? Nobody because it's stupid if you if you're only Defining cancer by the most extreme cases you're going to miss stages one two three You're not going to have treatment plans. You're not going to Know when to seek help and you're all but guaranteeing more cases of stage four. It's the same with psychopathy Well, so how did you start to get I guess treatment or support once you realized? Oh, I have these I am a sociopath or have these psychopathic traits I'm very different than other people. How did you get support for it? Or was there no support for you at all? There really was no support until I told my dad and he insisted that I see a therapist and I just got lucky I had a therapist who was she was well-versed in it, but nobody was really an expert that way but she was willing to work with me and do the work and Because I was afforded every privilege imaginable, you know, most people are not I was able to not just go to school but stay in school I was able to go not just go to therapy, but stay in therapy and Through the help of my therapist and My friends who I was then becoming honest with I was able to at least sort of have Witnesses to my journey. They didn't all stick around. I don't blame them but if that was that was when I was Same like making this decision of yeah, I'm not gonna lie about emotions anymore, and I'm not gonna lie about my actions anymore I'm just gonna start being really honest because what would that look like with a friend that you're like I'm not gonna lie anymore when they tell you they're going through a hard time and a breakup or something else What would you say then like how would that conversation go? I would say I would listen and But and it's funny. I would have never thought this at the time But I think I probably were you know We use tools that I I ended up refining when I started working as a therapist What I realized when friends would tell me things is You don't have to empathize with somebody in order to be an observer or a container for their feelings in fact I think I'm excellent container for feelings because my feelings don't pollute that container interesting So things don't get in the way. You don't say how you're feeling or what you're going through, right? you know what I find so much what neurotypical people is they'll sit down and They'll confide in one another and one friend will start to get emotional And what is the first thing the other friend says? What do you think? I guess they could say I'm so sorry Are they start crying? Maybe are they make it about themselves? Maybe or please don't cry. Oh, please. Don't cry. Don't cry. Don't cry Oh, it's okay. It's gonna be yes, it's gonna be okay Yes, because they don't want to deal with the feeling they it's uncomfortable for them to see their friend cry Which is completely understandable. So the first thing they want to do is make it better. It's gonna be okay Oh, don't cry. Oh, don't cry when the truth of the matter is tears Have mood elevating hormones in them tears are the brain's way of regulating So when you stop someone from crying or when you stop yourself from crying what you're doing is you're stopping the brain from healing itself Wow, and so many people because their intentions are good They want to stop their friend from crying because they don't like the way it makes them feel They don't like to see their friend in pain. But when I have a friend who's crying No, I don't like to see my friend in pain, but I understand it's not my job To stop them from feeling it's my job in this moment to sit with them in that feeling So it's the first thing you would think is oh if you're talking to someone who's psychopathic They don't care and by the way, sometimes I don't but I still understand This has nothing to do with me and it doesn't have to have anything to do with me So you're like a perfect therapist then you could be because you allow people to express it. You're just non-judgmental. He's like Yes, and I felt that when I was first because I never wanted to be a therapist it was I had to get hours for my doctorate and I tried to get out of it in every possible way I was like, this is crazy. You do not want me working as a therapist. I don't care about any of these people I don't care about any of this like this is so this is so dumb, you know And I did I went into it really begrudgingly and you know I remember sitting there across from somebody and not you know, it wasn't like this but imagine my internal self. Yeah. Yeah You showed like a happy I'm like, this is so So what I want to be doing Like these people's problems, right? But then I was like, oh, you know what I Would go to because when you're when you're in your residency you do these like group Like supervision. Yeah, and I would listen to all of the people that I was in It's a treatment facility with talking about how hard it was, you know, I you know This this guy one woman was saying this guy had come in was talking about cheating on his wife and she's like and I was so angry I just wanted to punch him and I wanted to refer him to someone else because I hate this man and they had Their own emotional stuff that they were bringing in and I remember thinking. Oh, I don't have any of that and that's when I thought oh I might like this because no one's expecting me to feel anything and That was so different from every other place in my life where I'm expected to have a reaction Everyone's expected to have a reaction when you're in therapist. Not only are you not expected to have a reaction? It's better if you don't so it was like actually the best Job for me because it's like oh, wow Someone can be sitting in here crying right in front of me and not only am I not expected to cry? Yes, it would be inappropriate if I did sure, of course So it and I was like, oh, I'm a container and I my job isn't to hold their hand and feel with them My job is to observe their feelings and help them process those feelings allow them to process. Yes So I was like, oh wow, I had this all wrong then I actually really enjoyed it really You ever grab the healthier snack take one bite and immediately wish you'd pick something else if a habit feels like Punishment you're probably not going to stick with it Look committing to yourself starts with building habits that you can stick to that's where stars and honey comes in Their protein bars have 15 grams of protein and only 4 grams of sugar Toss one in your gym bag Keep one in the car or bring one to the office and you don't have to choose between nutrition and taste Try iced lemon cookie mint chocolate chip red velvet or peanut butter mousse order stars and honey protein bars at stars and honey comm or Find them at Target stores nationwide That's stars and honey calm or pick up a box on your next Target shopping trip Support for this episode comes from ring whatever shows up around home this holiday season with ring You're protected the holidays get busy fast. You're running errands gifts are showing up at the house Maybe you're traveling and that's a lot happening at once one thing I really like is being able to check in when packages are arriving at the front door with battery doorbell 2k when you've gotten gifts being delivered and you're not always home when they show up Indoor cam is small and easy to set up. Just plug it in and place it pretty much anywhere inside. An outdoor cam plus gives you retinal 2K clarity for your yard and outdoor spaces. Ring helps you stay connected to what's happening at home, so you can spend more time enjoying the holiday moments that matter. With Ring, you're protected. Shop cameras, doorbells, and more at ring.com. Support for this episode comes from Amazon Business. When it comes to your business, procurement shouldn't be a guessing game. Whether you're running a small business or managing a large organization, Amazon Business offers smart purchasing experiences designed to meet your unique needs. Smart tech, smarter decisions, streamline your buying process, save time and money, and gain valuable insights. Amazon Business empowers you and your team to buy with confidence. Learn more at amazonbusiness.com. But you just didn't have emotional connection to most of the, I guess, patients that would come in. No. Like nothing. Not emotional, intellectual. How would you think about it if someone's going through a hard time in their life, grief, loss, divorce, betrayal, and they come in and they're like, my life is over. I'm experiencing extreme pain. I've been depressed for six months. I can't sleep. This person did this horrible thing to me, or I did this horrible thing to someone, and I ruined our relationship, whatever it is. How would you think and how would you feel in those moments? Well, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm taking it as data. So I am, instead of, I cheated on my wife, I blew up my life. I'm not thinking, what a piece of shit this guy is. Like, I would kill someone if they did that to me. I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking. You're not judging at all. No, it's information. So it's, okay, he cheated. I wonder why he did that. He seems to be honest in his remorse. He's in here talking to me, so some part of him wants to change. So why did he do that? Let's figure out why he did that. Why does he think he did it? And it's a puzzle, and it's a puzzle that I'm helping you put together so that you can process it and make different choices. I worked as an emergency trauma counselor for volunteer work, and so I would meet people sometimes on the worst day of their life, mass shooting victims, sitting down in front of me an hour after a horrible, catastrophic, unimaginable trauma, and I never had to worry that I was going to break down and exacerbate their trauma because you would see that happening where understandably other therapists would go in and they'd come out crying and sobbing, but then the person now feels like they don't have a container. You know? Now they have to hold back because the other person can't deal with it. And by the way, I don't blame the other therapists. It makes sense, but I remember thinking I can contain some brutal stuff. Some trauma. And not let it infuse in your soul. You're not taking on the emotional burden or weight of that trauma. Like a lot of people may if they have that, I guess, emotional desire to want to connect more, if they're more empathetic in natural ways, I guess they wouldn't. Like if someone told me something really horrible happened, I've had to learn how to create almost like a spiritual shield. Otherwise, I'm exhausted for the next three days. Yes, that's just what I have inherently. So you're doing what I'm doing. You just had to teach yourself how to do it whereas I just learn. It's almost like a disassociation to it, right? You're just learning to compartmentalize a different person's experience so you don't become the experience. Which is, it was hard for me to learn that. Sure, yeah. But you grew up with that. With that. Interesting. But again, it's always, well not always, but so frequently that is framed in a negative light. You know, it's oh, you're manipulating people. You don't care. You don't care, you're callous. And I always push back on that word callous because I go back to what I said at the start which is just because I don't have an emotional connection to someone's pain doesn't mean that I wanna create more of it. Doesn't mean that I enjoy seeing someone in pain. If I see somebody fall down on the sidewalk, I will help them up. Now. You're not gonna kick them down. No, now am I gonna sit there and talk to them for 45 minutes? No. That's more me. But here's the thing though, there's nothing wrong with that either but I think in society today there's an overemphasis on things have to come from the heart. Oh, you have to mean it. Yeah, it has to come from an emotional place and that's simply untrue. Yeah. Wow. So is it possible for psychopaths to actually change? Yeah. How? Through a process called resocialization. So similar to what I was talking about with kids who are neurotypical, they learn how to become socialized among other children, with other children through modeling, through examples, through experience. But as an adult, is it harder? I don't know that it is. It certainly wasn't harder for me but antisocial children, they don't learn that way. They learn in a different way. Again, because they're missing those cohorts, they don't have peers, everything has to start selfishly. So, right. So instead of- If you're the only child, do you have more tendencies to have these traits as well if you're the only child or something like that? Positive reinforcement. So punishment does not work with antisocial children at all. Punishment, and by the way, punishment doesn't really work with prosocial children. I mean, the research indicates that punishment really just teaches kids to hide their behavior. It doesn't really teach them to alter it. Interesting. But that is especially true of antisocial kids. So when you would get into trouble, what would you, how would you respond? You would just hide it better? I would hide it better and I- Would you act up more? Yeah, I would. I'm thinking I was like- Isn't that interesting? No, because it's, I wouldn't have had the tools at the time to have articulated this, but it was definitely a feeling of, you're a hypocrite, you're not taking the time to get to understand me, you're making judgments, and now I'm punished. I remember specifically, the big thing was, don't tell a lie. You know, as children, like- Your parents would say this. My parents, my- Whatever, teachers. Yeah, teachers, yeah. Authorities. Never lie. But they would lie. All the time. I feel like this is- All the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would, oh, and so when I would get punished, oh, I would burn. And then I would think about how I was gonna get them back after. Yeah. What can I do that's even worse? What can I do that's even worse that you're not gonna find out about? And so, this is a bad example, but I had this one teacher that was so awful, and she punished me for something, again, something I saw her do all the time. And I remember thinking, okay, well, I'm gonna be really sweet, and I'm gonna make it seem like I really learned from my mistakes and the second your back is turned, I'm gonna steal your keys, and I'm gonna enjoy watching you look for them. Oh, man. And I was very young. Wow. And I just, and I remember, now, that's definitely nefarious. Yeah. And that's, you know- And that could grow into something. Well, sure, especially when you're, so I was a privileged little girl, okay? But if I am a kid that has grown up in the foster care system, if I have no support, if I have no positive reinforcement, oh, if it's kill or be killed, absolutely, that knife is gonna be much sharper every day. Wow. But that's how antisocial kids learn. They learn through positive reinforcement. So let's say Jennifer wants to kick Stacey, okay? You're not gonna get Jennifer to not kick Stacey by saying something like, well, that'll make Stacey sad, because Jennifer's gonna say, and- Who cares? Right, it's, all right, Jennifer, I get that you wanna kick Stacey. Stacey's annoying. We all wanna kick Stacey sometimes. But here's the thing, if you kick Stacey, you're gonna get in trouble, and then you're not gonna be able to go to the skating rink on Saturday, and I know you wanna go to the skating rink, so what do you say we not kick Stacey? It's a type of negotiation where they have to understand what their action is going to cost them. And then from there, they can grow to understand how those actions affect others. So as an adult, when I started to learn that, and when you have adults who are in treatment for psychopathy, that's the reframe. It's, you want your life to be great, right? You wanna keep that job. You wanna keep the money you have. You wanna keep the relationships. You enjoy the relationships, right? If you start to cheat, if you start to steal, if you start to embezzle, all of that's gonna go away. So it's almost like choose your hard. They're both hard. It's gonna be hard not to embezzle. I know how tempting it is, but it's also gonna be hard when your job and your friends disappear. So choose your hard. It's not, don't do that because it's bad and that makes you a bad person, because that does not resonate. It's logic. And then that, from there, resocialization, you start to understand, okay, now I'm becoming a productive member of society, maybe for different reasons than everyone else, but I'm still getting here. When I was like 10 to 11, it was probably like a year, a year and a half range, I would go into stores and steal candy bars and whatever, just little stuff here and there, and it became a game, right? And almost every time I went to a store, it was like, and this was before there was cameras or whatever, so it was a lot easier, I guess, back then, but I would try to steal something and put it in my pocket and get away with it, right? And then I'd try to go show other people what I did in a way of kind of, I don't know, proving my worth or value, because I didn't feel valuable at all. And I never felt bad about it until, and I never got caught in a store, but I got caught one time with my dad. We went to go see a client of his in his, this client's house, and I ended up stealing 25 bucks from this guy's wallet. And my dad caught me with it the next day, and he drove me back to go give this $25 back to this client. I was 11 years old, I was terrified. And this man looked at me, was so upset with me and just so disappointed, and I saw how it affected my family, and it was like, oh man, I might have ruined something with my dad's business. And for whatever reason, that remorse made me never steal again, at least knowingly. I've never intentionally stolen since I was 11. And was there a moment in your life, because I know you write about how you would go I think it was like picking locks and breaking into homes and things like this. Was there a moment where you realized, oh, I don't want to do this anymore? Or was it more just like, it's not worth the price I'm paying of potentially getting caught or the pain I'm causing others? Like, and what made you decide to not do those things anymore? Well, it's interesting, because I had a similar situation with my mom where she found a box in my closet full of things that I had stolen. That wasn't yours. Right, and same thing, she made me take it all back. But I remember thinking, and again, I wouldn't have had the tools at the time. But when I think back, I remember being relieved. Like, yes, like, I, it was almost like, yeah, let's give it all back. I don't want this stuff. What I want is someone to help me. Yes, and someone to help me understand why I have this compulsion to take it. So it's like, yeah, maybe one of, can somebody help figure this out? I don't want, and also this box is getting more and more full. I don't want any of this stuff. I'm gonna have to find a, so this was actually nice, like, great, I can. You didn't want the things, you were just, it was more the thrill, I guess, of the experience. Yes, but it was, I had no remorse. Yeah. And again, not like, I have no remorse because I hate you and I don't care, but because I didn't really want this stuff. I wanted someone to help me understand why I was feeling like I had to take it. But later, when I was, I had put myself in college on what I called my disciplined acts of deviance. I called it my destruction schedule, I think. And it was just these, you know, breaking into homes and doing things regularly in the hopes of offsetting a bigger destructive act. I found that, yeah, if I had this tension, this pressure I felt, and if I didn't do something to alleviate that tension. You needed to release. Yes. Then it would be a big explosion. Correct. Wow. So I remember doing these small, now I understand breaking into homes, it includes, everybody would say it's small, but in my mind it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't ever feel like I was violating anyone. It's funny that we were talking about that before, but I never, I was never in there to take or steal from them. I just, I remember sitting in these homes and that peace, just knowing somewhere I wasn't supposed to be and just being, it was so still and so quiet. And I loved, I was chasing that feeling. But yes, I remember thinking. So you weren't like throwing everything around? No, never, never. That's what happened to me, like I got home and everything's broken and thrown around and stolen. Yes, but that's a violation and that's, there is a violence to that, that people have said, you know, well, how would you have felt? And it's like, you know what, I didn't, they didn't know. And I never, in fact, if I saw something if I saw that a stove was left on, I'd turn it off. If I saw that a cat needed to be fed, I would feed the cat. I was never trying to hurt. The people, yeah. Yeah, no, I remember. It was the thrill of the. Well, it was the elimination of that pressure. It was like. Interesting. So imagine having, being in a vice and having it slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly and breaking into one of those, like the vice disappears and it's like. Really? Oh God, I can breathe. Yes, I would just sit in these homes. What do you think you would have done if for two years you didn't do these break-ins or these little micro expressions? Violence. Like what type of violence? Well, when I was a kid, I remember I had gone through a couple weeks, I think, maybe it was longer where my little pressure releases weren't working and that tension just kept. And I ended up, there was a kid next to me who was just being aggressive and I had a pencil and I stabbed her in the head with it. In the head? In the head or the neck. I think it was actually both. I know that sounds really crazy because I, it was both, but I remember, I only remember one, but I believe there. Yeah, yeah, it might've been a couple. Yes. One can never say yeah, but I remember how old were you first grade? Uh-huh. Yeah Wow, yeah, but I remember feeling like that high was Intense. It was like euphoric. I understood completely that it was wrong I understood completely that there were going to be consequences. But again, she didn't care because that vice was so tight What would you call if you were neurodivergent is that would you consider yourself? Mm-hmm, then what would you consider someone like me who's not neurodivergent? Is there a different terminology for no I would consider you someone who was coping with trauma, but it would be the terminology if it's not neurodivergent What is like I don't there is I don't think there's a terminology for someone. I would say that you probably suffered from C PTSD yeah And when you're in complex interesting complex post-traumatic stress disorder is not in the DSM and it really should be Because PTSD usually speaks to those singular events So if you think of a veteran who experienced something very specific one trauma one trauma or or several that they can point directly to Where's complex post-traumatic stress disorder so many children suffer from that there usually is not one or they can point to one But there's nine million more where that came on so many that are yes Yeah And what happens is you're all of these behaviors that you're describing think of it as your brain like a software patch Your brain is trying to solve the problem your brain is trying to solve it. Yeah, and it can't so it's it's You're acting out in in order to try and process these huge feelings and experiences that no one is taught you to process so I mean not that I You know want to diagnose you but I don't think there's a term so much as I would say no It sounds like you have some complex trauma. Sure. Well, one of the things I was thinking about is like You know foot by playing sports was my release Oh, yeah, sure and it's like if I didn't sitting in a classroom all day for eight hours, I was like, yeah, that was my my My tension would build and then have practice right afterwards. It was like a way for me to like let it out and release Yeah, and it was a healthy way to inflict violence on Others, yeah, especially football because it was very physical and it was all about how do I inflict as much pain as possible? And we're also taught that it wasn't like it was a bad thing. It was like hurt them. Yes legally Yeah, it's like knock them down. So they don't want to get up You know, you don't want to break someone's bones, but you want to like have them go sit down You know, yeah, you want them to be slower. You want them to be less like on their game? and so everything was just about how do I inflict as much pain as possible and it's so funny because You're taught to do that in a three-hour window and then all of a sudden you're supposed to be like a normal human being Afterwards, yeah, that's like vulnerable loving like open Emotionally evolved human. Yes. It's just very confusing. Yeah, if you don't learn the tools on how to Switch off your mind switch on your mind in different context and settings of life. Mm-hmm It could become an identity for people. Sure forever Yeah, and if we don't learn the I guess the emotional or spiritual tools to release things, we're always going to be finding Defaulting back to our old ways of being of acting out I guess and doing it in other ways Yeah, it's like whack-a-mole you hit one. That one's gonna come up. Yeah, and this is where I'm assuming, you know, you're the therapist I'm assuming this is where addiction stems from where it'd be alcohol drugs. Yeah pornography, whatever it be Stealing cheating lying, whatever it is. It's like what is the vice of choice to give someone a release? So, how does someone? Whether they're a psychopath or have trauma or they're have anxiety depression or any type of symptoms that causes Pain inside of them. How does someone truly heal? To not have to have a negative vice Create a release, but they can create freedom from within without needing those things. I always say that 80% of The work is in awareness You have to be aware of a problem before you can solve the problem Yeah And that's so much like so many of the things you've said have started with well I realized that this was going on with me and I realized that I didn't want to make these choices anymore and that Awareness, it seems to come more naturally to you based on the stories you've told in the age you were when you were having these realizations, but Once you are aware Course correction. It's not easy, but it is so much more manageable It's that awareness and I think that's where so many people struggle is that they're Making these choices and engaging in these behaviors and they don't have any mind body connection they don't see how their actions are a direct result of something that has happened in the past and So it's hard, but you really can't be helped until you mean it's just like anything you have to know there's a problem, right? And nobody can want it for you. Mm-hmm. But once once you are aware once you can sit and say, oh I am now drawing a line between this Memory or this trauma and this behavior. I see what's going on and But in this world everything's so fast, right? It takes some quiet it takes some stillness and unfortunately We're really breeding that out of a lot of the generations. Like no one is sitting still everyone's on the move Everyone's doing you know Everyone has a device in their hand. So it takes that gosh willingness to be aware That your book is titled sociopath. Mm-hmm Do you still consider yourself a sociopath? I always will because that's what I got that that was my diagnosis I understand that that term is no longer used. I understand that it has evolved to be other things but without that word, I mean that's where I that's the word I researched and that's the the journey that I that I went on and it sounds crazy to say but I have like a soft spot in my heart for sociopath because it's Yeah, I know that word and I remember in the research looking at it and saying like, okay Well this research calls it sociopath and this research calls it psychopath and then there's this book over here But and I and and my dissertation is written on sociopathy and you know today it would be written on psychopathy But I remember It was it was for some reason Alice in Wonderland always lives somewhere in my head I don't know why that movie had such an impact on me, but I think of it when Alice is you know in Wonderland and she's following Footsteps or breadcrumbs or something and then she turns around and another little animals come and swept him all away And that's how I felt when it was like, well that word doesn't exist anymore. I remember feeling like well What am I split now? I'm just in Wonderland and I have no idea Yeah, but huh? Mm-hmm. No, I'm curious the importance of words for you or for others when someone Claims an identity where there's I am smart. I am beautiful. I am ugly. I am whatever. I am a sociopath. I'm a psychopath When someone claims I'm an alcoholic like does that identity? impact them in a negative way if they claim an identity that I am a versus I Was experiencing this, you know Psychopathic or alcoholic tendency for many years and now I am this is there a power in using words to shape Identity completely. I think specifically though. I really Don't like it when someone uses Sociopathy or psychopathy as a way to justify bad behavior, you know, like yeah when I was just who I am Well, no saying yeah, I got it. I acted like a real psychopath. I tried to kill that guy Or you know, it's like when you're using these words to justify bad behavior That bumps me. Uh-huh, but I don't think you know, I think it's whatever empowers you, you know for me having a name define Why I felt or didn't feel the way I did why I felt compelled to act out Having that really helped. It was an anchor for me. It was like, okay Because like I said, I was like am I just gonna wake up one morning and and want to kill people and I also felt so alone like and Yeah, when I received my diagnosis, I remember thinking I remember looking out at the park and there were 25 people in the park roughly and 1 in 25 is there and I remember thinking okay, so 1 in 25 So I wonder if one of those people at the park is like me and that was empowering like, okay There's others out there there's at least enough people to justify an entire psychological category So I'm not alone that made me feel part of a community now. It's not really community Everybody wants to be a member of but serial killer. No, but yeah, there's a community of us But let me tell you it's for for someone that did feel like the loneliest whale for so long It was like aha. All right So not only are there others like me But they're also struggling like me and then that allowed me to empathize with other people which really yes Which then allowed me to empathize with other like Facebook groups of yeah, there are like psychopaths not Facebook But yeah, they are there are really where you guys can actually empathize with each other. You're like, oh we get it Yes, and I have yet to encounter Anyone in these groups that is talking about Nefarious behavior. I mean outside. Yes, they'll do destructive acts, but no one's in there talking about It Wanting to kill or wanting to maim like it's not like that And that's which is it to say that they don't exist and I'm sure there are some people that are doing that but no Yeah, my friend. I hope you're enjoying this episode and the school of greatness drops new conversations every Monday Wednesday and Friday around money mindset healing manifestation and Relationships and if you're not yet following the show then you're missing all of them Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one Might be exactly what you need now. Let's get back to the conversation I've learned the best pieces of my closet are usually the ones I don't have to think about a great t-shirt an easy layer Something I can put on and know it works and one of those pieces for me is quince's 100% organic cotton mesh stitch Sweater polo. I keep reaching for it because it looks put together without feeling too dressed up and What stood out to me right away about this was the quality and the feel it's comfortable It looks sharp and it's easy to wear. That's what quince does really well They make elevated everyday essentials with premium materials and timeless designs and when the weather cools down They have versatile layers that make getting dressed simple find your next fall favorites at quince Download the quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too and when quince Ask you where you heard about them. Let them know it was the school of greatness. It's the best way to support this show With the US Bank smartly visa signature card you earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase No quarterly activations no categories to track just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase Think about those bigger everyday purchases travel groceries things for the house where afterward you realize I could have earned cash back on that That's the kind of opportunity that adds up over time visit usbank.com Smartly card to learn more the creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc Some restrictions may apply So, how do you cope now now that you know, you've studied this for a long time You've been a part of this community. You've written about it. You know, this is your life's work How do you? Ease the pain or the stress valve now versus when you were, you know, seven years old wanting to Stick a pencil on a you know, the person next to you or something that was harmful to others How do you release that now? Well so much of that was feeling like I could not be Myself, I could not take this mask off. I felt so Emotionally claustrophobic and that cost that vice that claustrophobia is what was driving that behavior But I don't have that claustrophobia anymore because I no longer conceal who I am how I feel or don't feel I'm too honest. I'm hyper honest in terms of yeah, I don't I can't relate to that. No, I don't really feel remorse about that Yeah, I don't I I don't care. I'm sorry. I wish I did but I don't I don't I don't Hide it's true to you. Yes, so and because I don't hide I don't really have those Impulses anymore and when I do I'm aware of them. I just so it's like up. Okay, there are some times where I notice the Desire to act out and it's not desire. It's not the right word where I feel like a compulsion But I'm so aware of what's going on. It's like, okay, you don't do it Yeah, I don't do it. But I also I'll also say something to someone I'll say hey, I'm feeling really I'm feeling really Unpredictable this regulated and I I need support. I mean, I'll just ask for it. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah So, how do you I guess? You have kids you're married, how do you I guess connect to people's closest to you When maybe it's something happens to them where they feel something deeply and you inside don't feel that how do you connect with them so that they feel like you care or that you are there with them or Because we want others to care in some way right like how do you do that by serving as a container? Uh-huh. So for instance my oldest really He delivered a speech on people-pleasing and he wanted to read it to me and he asked me how I felt about it And I said, it's really interesting because this is not something that I can relate to you Don't feel that at all at all. Really at all. You don't care about you don't try to please it Well, I guess you did when you're a kid to not get in trouble That's not the same as people-pleasing, you know People-pleasing is when you're you're you're pleasing someone else because you want to feel you want them to like you Yes, you want them to give you that attaboy? Well, and I'm you want to be liked you want to be the good one, you know And I don't have that at all at all at all to a fault. So what is the key to not? Being a people pleaser for that because I would say a lot of people in the world struggle with yeah Doing things they don't want to do to please others. Yeah, I'm changing who they are to make someone else happy So what is the key to overcoming the people pleaser? Disease that a lot of people have well, okay So it's a it's I have an answer But I'm gonna go to what I I've been thinking a lot about relationships and about love because I get asked a lot You know, what is love like because they say psychopaths can't love or they struggle to and that I would say yeah, that is true In the sense that I do struggle to love the way a neurotypical person does so, how do you love them? So it seems to me that neurotypical people so much of their love is tethered to their own sense of self-worth so My biggest fear when I'm in a relationship with someone is that I'm gonna hurt them in some way either I'm going to my love's not going to be enough for them and they're going to feel Injured as a result of my inability to meet them emotionally It's always my biggest fear is that I'm going to hurt them But when I talk to my neurotypical friends, their biggest fear is that they're going to be left they're going to be abandoned and the whole Interesting that you complete me argument seems to be a play a lot in neurotypical Love and if you're not if you don't love me then who am I then I am somehow less than I'm not enough Yes, and so that's when I change correct to make you. Yes, because and I would argue That's not love. That's you trying to Build your self-esteem through a relationship with someone else. I feel like I did that so many times. Yes younger Yeah, so much which made me Feeling so resentful of myself and others. Yeah the relationship. Yes exhausted exhausted drained completely and I don't have that So if you know, I've been in situations where relationships have ended and I've been very sad But at no point has I ever felt less than no my sense of self is never negatively Completed by someone else you exist and I exist but you do not complete me Yeah, I don't want to be in a I don't I don't need to be in a relationship with you I want to be in a relationship with you and that need component is what drives so much of people pleasing So people pleasing I would argue is a subset of that Dysfunctional love that has become so normalized this well I want to you know, I need you and you complete me and I mean women and men all over the world That phrase you complete me was everywhere and people really do use it as like a yeah He you know, we complete each other and better half, right? Yes, and every time that happens my head explodes. It's like no this is actually white damaging and I don't think you realize that and So when I talk with my children about people pleasing I always lean into you have to be very careful with people pleasing because it's a slippery slope you start needing to please others as a way to Regulate yourself And that is dangerous. You're not liked by them or if they're upset with you. Yes, and you can't regulate that, correct? Then you're screwed. You're outsourcing your emotional well-being Wow, and you don't realize you're doing it. So you almost have a superpower I sense I think a psychopath, you know, it's like you have a superpower I I have heard that and I would only disagree with the fact that I have it The truth of the matter is everybody has it you just have to I mean, it's you know, I'm not from another planet I have the same DNA that everyone else doesn't mean these there's a reason that psychopathy hasn't been bred out of the species You know, everybody has traits like this. Look no further than traitors, you know people go on this show and And you know, whatever three two or three are selected to be traitors and they get so excited and suddenly these people that go from I can't lie. I feel so guilty. I have so much shame suddenly They're like, I can't wait to murder and lie and steal and it's like see you all have it in you You just need someone to give you permission to engage in these behaviors video games is another great example I'm gonna kill everyone. I'm gonna kill everyone and there's no remorse and there's complete Laugh and so many people play video games. I would argue because there's no emotion. They can kind of get that release. Yes Yes, so it's really not my super kill them and no one does yes exactly and it's it's a release from emotion It's a lease or release. Do you think that when my kids play video games? They're they're worried about people pleasing in that video game. No, it's free me And it's and it's there's a liberation to that and I think that it's not so much of my superpower as it's it is A superpower to which everyone has access if they are willing to do the work to have the tough conversations which is why are you people pleasing and really taking a look at this idea of romantic love and coming to the conclusion that it's Actually quite toxic if if you need someone to complete you if you need to be in a relationship at all, you're screwed Well, you're you're outsourcing your happiness. So what is what is the debt? What is the definition of people pleasing? Needing to make other people happy in order to feel good about yourself Why do so many people do you think need to make other people happy to feel good about themselves? Why can't people just be good with who they are? What's the what's wrong with society with so many people needing to do that? I think a lot of children are raised So quickly and and in such a turbulent environment that they aren't taught how to Fulfill themselves. So when I talk to my kids, I say listen, everybody has two containers Okay, you have your own container that you nurture and you fill okay all the way to the top and that's what you that's how You pour into yourself and then you have the outside container and that outside container is what other people pour into you. Okay, and Ideally you have a full internal container and a full external container But so many people have empty internal containers and they're expecting other people not just to fill the external container but to also fill the internal container and you can't and I've been in relationships with people like this and it's really tough because they Always want more more more and it's like but I can't fill this container. Only you can fill this one from their partner Okay Well, they want they want their partner to to to do to fill their internal container as well as their external container So hard to do what it's impossible. I I can't make you feel more confident maybe by the outside container you mean by like Someone's personal goals or dreams or what they're working on or their career partnership connection, you know But inside so inside container is what self-worth self-confidence self-belief Regulation Sustainability tools where I'm okay, you know, I'm okay because I'm okay And only you can work on your only you can work on your in the outside container is you with another? Yes, how you Additives partnerships collaboration building together But so much of what I see in relationships today are people wanting someone else to do Their work the inside container. Yes, and the outside you need to make me feel better about myself You need to compliment me. You need to make me feel better as opposed to I look in the mirror and I think okay I feel good about myself. I'm gonna go as opposed to how do you think I look? Do you think I look okay, do you think they need that constantly and it's exhausting and it's depleting and it's It's never-ending because it's never-ending. I can't do that for you. You can't do that for me We have to do that on our own and that's what I try to teach my kids where Try to find a way where you can look at yourself in the mirror and be happy and listen if you go out into the world And you find somebody else that's also happy with that person great But at the end of the day you are good with you what if someone's not good with themselves though That's the whole problem. You have to get good with yourself. Most people are not good with themselves I know so, how do we learn how to develop these inner skills and tools of self-confidence? enoughness worthiness Lovability of what we see in the mirror Where we're at in our lives and our careers like how do we develop those grace? I would say, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody knows where they came from. I've been everybody knows their own story and You know your own story. So if you think I don't like myself very much It's like did anyone ever teach you how to like yourself? You know, usually if I ask that question, it's waterworks instant water. Yes. Did anyone ever teach you how to like yourself? Well, love yourself. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's a second. Anyway teach you how to like yourself anyone teach you how to love yourself Yes, and it's and and by and in that moment I'm not saying please don't cry I'm saying yes Let that all out and it's morning. It's a life that you have to mourn. Yes that nobody took care of you that childhood Yes, nobody saw you and said hey, you're really special and let me show you how to feel that way about yourself Did anybody do that for you? The answer is almost always no and you have to grieve that for a long time I think it doesn't happen in like one. Oh, it might be so much to year years potentially It might be an ongoing healing journey forever. Yes, and a lot of people want to do that quick move over like yeah Yeah, my childhood softer. Yeah. Yeah, my dad was an alcoholic, but it's a Let's let's stay there. That was probably really scary. Well, yeah, I mean it's soft, but no no, yeah, everyone goes through stuff Everybody. Yeah, everybody has everybody has a history. I'm not talking about everybody. I'm talking about you Let's you know, it's you got a really good therapist. Well, it's not I'm really not it's so much as it's I'm just asking the Question. Yeah, of course. I mean you have to do the work and the work sucks But yeah, so what do you Knowing this information. How do you teach your kids then or how what do you say to other parents to teach their kids about? How parents can teach kids how to develop these inner tools like what are things you say to them constantly to reinforce Them doing the work for themselves on their inner container I think a lot of it is a lot of that is modeling a lot of that is watching You know is is making sure that I set the best example that I can that I'm not Using unhealthy coping mechanisms that I'm not You know, they see kids, you know monkey see monkey do they see a Confidence and then they feel safe to practice their own confidence, you know, I'm not modeling something that I That is an unhealthy but in that sense, so it's modeling. It's not saying something to it's that too But again, like how many times have you said something, you know to somebody and no listen. No Watch you. Yeah, what are three things that you do to model for your kids to develop self-confidence boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries Because that's confidence with who it's just anyone so if there's if there's someone that's being disrespectful. I say something It's funny. There was a show. I don't know if it's still on it was on ABC for a long time It was on what would you do where they brought a camera crew in and they would set up these? Scenarios or like somebody's putting a drink and I always used to joke like they're lucky You know, but I did if I see something I say something I really do I have like you don't care No, I do not care and but there's a difference in being aggressive and being a service. Yeah, you said don't do that Yes. Okay. Hi. This is inappropriate yeah, like and and it's and and they and they see that if I if if They're having a playdate Or you know a lot of times I'll I'll hear them if they're on like a call with their friends or if they're playing a video game with their friends and I Hear something. I'll say hey, that's you can't speak that way to people it's it might it seems like a joke and everybody's laughing, but it's not it's inappropriate and and I want you to be a better example and and by the way vice versa So they'll they've they've called me up sometimes where yeah They'll say I didn't like the way you spoke to me or I want I wanted to talk to you about something I feel like you blew me off and They're modeling it. They're modeling it and I would say boundaries, but also modeling Apologies there's like an epidemic in this country it seems people don't want to apologize for anything and that is Mind-blowing to me because if there's one thing that I teach my kids, why is that? I think it's because again they their Confidence takes a hit their pride takes a hit if they were wrong Yes, they don't want to admit to being wrong and my take is who cares so that's the thing Oh, you know your psychopathy. Are you ever wrong? Do you ever apologize? I apologize all the time because my I don't have any ego attached really Yeah, if I upset you and you say that that really upset me. Oh, dude Sorry, like but aren't there psychopaths that do have a lot of ego attached for sure that a lot of narcissistic tendencies as well Yes, I'm not saying that there aren't people with my diagnosis who aren't Terrible really mean actors. Yes, but I can say the same for narcissistic personality disorder borderline personality disorder, you know addiction that people People are all fighting some demon I Just don't want to be told that I'm a bad person because I don't experience Emotion the way that somebody else does it's not how we feel. It's what we do. Sure. It is your actions. How does Sociopaths and narcissistic come together or not. It's such a good question. I love answering it So a lot of the behavior is similar. Okay, so narcissists and gay and interestingly enough borderline personality disorder a lot of the behavior associated with narcissism and psychopathy and borderline personality disorder They are very similar and that they are destructive and and often harmful to others But they all have different motivations so Narcissists people say Oh narcissus don't feel any shame, but actually that's not true. They live in shame That's their whole problem Our shame, but they don't want anyone else to see that because they have they don't they can't process that shame so the way that they cope with it is through grandiosity and and superiority and making others feel small whereas Psychopaths engage in destructive behavior because they don't have that and they're it's almost like they're trying to force a feeling Borderline personality disorder you're often dealing with often not always you're often dealing with people who a connection is the most important the loss of love is Unconsciously perceived as I mean almost lethal so someone who has an extreme Borderline personality will go to any lengths to be loved. And for them, getting you to love me is my right. So if you pull away from me, I will do anything to get you back. And it's and and my heart's in the right place. I just want to be loved. But it's like, but you're acting in a way that's incredibly damaging. But I'm just doing it because I want to be loved. And I have a real, it's funny, I have a real issue with intent. People a lot like to say, well, that wasn't my intention. And who cares? You know, I get so fired up over the intention argument. You know, someone will say, well, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. And it's like, oh, you want to get into intent? Like, I can go toe to toe on intent all day. Like, guess what? My intent was to hurt your feelings. At the end of the day. Now your feelings are hurt and my feelings are hurt. But you're somehow better because it wasn't your intent. No, it's it's BS. It's Yeah, do narcissists have the ability to apologize then? Are they less likely to apologize? Much less likely because their ego is completely invested in needing to be correct and needing to be the best at all times in order to insulate themselves against that. That tidal wave of shame that's just waiting on the other side of the door. Yes. And and narcissism. It's a it's very difficult to treat because again, it's almost impossible. Yeah, because you have to acknowledge the shame and that shame is is a monster that they can't even can't face. I mean, never acknowledge the internalize it almost it's life or deaths unconsciously. Like they can't go near that. So everyone else is wrong. Everyone else is wrong. They're never wrong. Never wrong. Never apologize. Even if they did the worst things. It was never their fault. Someone else caused it. They're always the best. Everything they have is the best. All the people are the best. Everything is perfect. Everything is better than yours. And I'm the smartest. It's awesome to when you're dealing with a narcissist. Yes, being manipulated by one. Yeah, and it is it really is. And it and where I think where psychopathy is easier to treat, it's easier to treat because there is less emotion. Whereas a narcissist, it's all emotion, all emotion. Yeah. And it's usually negative emotion. Yes. So the three things you said, the first two are creating boundaries, modeling, healthy apologies. Would you say most people don't apologize anymore? They sort of apologize as a as like a point. Yeah. Like as a point of people always want to be right. And my question is why? Yeah. Who cares? Who cares? Well, if you if you lack self-worth, I think it's hard. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's hard because you're like, I'm already low self-worth. Now I'm wrong. I have to own up that I'm bad and wrong. Yeah. Or however you interpret bad and wrong. See, that's interesting. Yes. I can be wrong without being you know, you can be wrong about being bad and wrong, you know, but so many people they they conflate the two. If I'm wrong, I'm also bad. And it's like, no, you can just be wrong. Yeah, I know. It's just human experience. I know. I know. Yeah. I made a mistake a few weeks ago, maybe a month and a half ago. And right away, I told Marcel's like, I think I made a mistake. I'm really sorry. And she goes, one of the things I love about you is that you're willing to apologize. And I'm like, yeah, I usually don't like to be wrong. But most of the time, I think I'm right. But when I mess up, I'll own it. And it's safe for the people around you. And also, it's safe for you. Yes. If you if you're in a relationship that is safe to do that, right? This thing that is the thing when you've been conditioned as a child of like, oh, if you make a mistake, and then you're screamed at and punished every time, like, it's it's traumatizing. So I've had to learn how to break that mold and create a container where it's like, I'm gonna be safe, no matter what, I'm gonna own it. Maybe the response is not good, or I have to deal with stuff. But at least I'm gonna be okay. But everything you just said was awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness. And that really is it. If you can just bring yourself to a place where you can be aware. Sure. The change, again, it's not the easiest thing in the world. But it's, that's the, that is the easy part. Yes. So what would be the third thing? You said boundaries, modeling apologies would be the third thing that you would have parents teaching their children to develop the inner container that is healthy. I would say something I always advise with parents dealing with antisocial kids, it's actually the same advice I would give parents of a neurotypical kid, ask them, how does it feel when you feel? And then give them give those kids the space to respond in a way that you can contain. Because asking a kid, how does it feel when you feel and allowing them to respond uncensored teaches those kids that their feelings matter, and teaches them how to process those feelings. You know, so a lot of times, how does it feel when you when you feel if you're asking an antisocial kid, say, let's say the antisocial kid says, I feel nothing. And I don't, I don't care about anyone, a parent's gonna go, don't say that, or you don't mean that, as opposed to, wow, that's probably pretty lonely, huh? Like, give that kid the space. And maybe don't force them to feel something you want them to feel, right? Don't, don't constantly measure any child against the normal emotional response. That's interesting. Because that teaches a kid that the only response that is appropriate is the normal one. And they're bad and wrong for having that feeling. Correct. Yeah. And who's to say that normal emotional, who's making that decision anyway? Who came up with that metric? Like, who got to decide what's right and wrong? I don't remember sitting in on that class. But if I my kids are neurotypical, I know how it feels when they feel. But so I'll say, you know, I heard you, you know, got into a fight with so and so today. Yeah, he was being a real jerk. You know, how did that feel? Like, you know, I was really mad. It's like, yeah, I bet that that, you know, that that probably really sucked. Because you're friends, right? Yes, we're friends. And he really hurt my feelings. Okay, so now we're getting somewhere. Oh, wow. Yeah. And just teaching these kids how to, how to identify emotions in the moment. And talking through it, you're teaching a kid how to process in a healthier way by communicating rather than communicating addictions. Yes, something else, right, or reacting with anger. Yes, rage or something, right? Because there are so many kids that they don't have. They have so many feelings, but they don't have any place to put those feelings. And they don't have anybody asking them. Or maybe they have somebody asking them how they feel, but they don't really have anybody listening. You know, that's gonna be okay. They're dismissing it. So they're just, oh, we'll just move on or wanting to make it better immediately, quickly. And that's the thing. It's like, if you're constantly wanting to make tough emotions better for your kids quickly, you're not teaching them how to deal with their own emotions. What is more dangerous for a parent asking your kids how you feel, and then shutting them down quickly, because you can't handle their emotions, or never asking them how you feel in general? I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know the answer to that. Because if you ask them how they feel, and then you shut them down, what you're teaching them is their feelings don't matter. But if you don't ask them at all, you're teaching them that they don't matter. Oh, man. Right? You're screwed up either way. Yeah. You're screwed up either way. Yeah. And a lot of parents, again, it's like, well, I didn't mean that. It's like, I don't care what you meant. Yes, who cares? And, you know, I remember growing up, it was a lot of the, it could be worse rationalization. Sure, of course. And I remember in LA, my house burned down. And, and nobody died. And I remember everybody, well, it could be worse. It could be worse. And I remember thinking, Yeah. It could be worse. But this is pretty bad. It's bad. Yeah. And It could be worse. Yeah, but this is horrible stuff. But it was just like people wanting to move on. They don't want to, it could be worse. Look on the bright side, that whole argument. No, it's like, sit with somebody. And just because it could be worse, doesn't mean that what they're going through isn't really valid. And so many people, and I saw it happen again, in this, with the Palisades fire. Oh, so many houses. So many houses. And that was the first, well, did anybody, did anybody die? Well, at least there's, it's like, wow. So yes, somebody did die. Their house died. Their life died. Yes. Their identity, everything. Yes. Their community. Yes. You're trying so hard to move past it because you can't sit with it. But these people just lost everything. And I know what that feels like. But even if I didn't, I can imagine it, you know, not being able to go back, like all your stuff, all of your memories, like that's no small thing. Why is it so hard for human beings to sit with other people's emotions when something traumatic or challenging happens in their lives? And how can we learn how to be with someone else's emotions so it's a safe container for them? I think Western civilization in particular, we really like to keep it moving. Sweep it under the rug. Look no further than death. You know, we're one of the only civilizations where death is like somebody dies, somebody comes and takes them, puts some makeup on them, slaps them, lipstick, pretty dress. Whereas other cultures, you sit with that body, you dress that body, you are present for that transition. But I think so much, particularly in America, is no, no, no, nothing to see here, you know? And I think that that trickles down to emotion where, you know, so many, particularly in the boomer generation, they tell, well, we didn't talk about those things. We didn't talk about that. It's like, yeah, I can tell you didn't. When you're not acknowledging emotion, how in the world are you learning to sit with emotion for somebody else, much less yourself? And it takes practice. It takes the ability to say, whoa, no, we're not just gonna move past it. You know, I was talking to somebody who had a child, it was like the 90s, a classmate had found a gun in their parents' house and accidentally killed themselves. And one day that kid was in class and the next day he wasn't and nobody talked about it. Can you imagine that today? Moved on because it was too much, the kids can't take it. They can't handle it. They can't handle it. It's like, no, actually what they can't handle. Little Johnny's just moved away. Gone. No discussion of it whatsoever. And I hear that so often in terms of like, and it'll come out casually. You know, like we said, it's just like, oh yeah, I had a brother, he died. Yeah, it was actually quite awful. He died in a car accident and I watched the whole thing. But yeah, we don't talk about it. And it's like... When someone isn't willing to talk about a traumatic event, what are they really saying? Well, they haven't been taught. Because remember, that child didn't make that decision. The parents made that decision. So then they're teaching that child, we don't talk about things like that. When something bad happens, you turn the page. You bury it, you turn the page. How bad is that for our nervous system? Horrible. Because there is no nervous system regulation. Like that book, it says, body keeps the score. And all of that trauma is stored somewhere. And what you want to do is have uncomfortable conversations. Because uncomfortable conversations, quite frankly, they're not that uncomfortable. It's just people don't want to do it. They'd rather lie. I mean, I've talked about this before. I had a very toxic family member when I was a kid. And I remember sitting across from this guy at Christmas, Thanksgiving, and something was up with this guy. Like, no. Really? You felt it? Yes. And this was a child predator. And I remember saying things like, something's off. And how dare you say something like that? That is your uncle. You respect him. And as a kid being like, respect this. You had a lot of balls. That's good. I never flipped off my grandmother. But I remember thinking inside like, I see what's going on here. And I actually will not be respecting him. What I will do is I'm going to disappear. Most kids don't have that courage to stand against authority when they're eight. But I didn't see it as courage. I saw it as hypocrisy. Again, it was like, so I can't lie. I have to follow all these rules. But you can sit across from me. And we're all going to pretend that this guy isn't a major problem. And I remember, but I couldn't. I mean, I was young. So like, yes, I sit across from you and I act like, but I really couldn't say those things. So what I would do is whenever he was around, I would take my sister, we would go for a walk. And I wouldn't come back until he was gone. Because and I remember feeling so much rage at the rules of lying. They only seem to apply to me. But all of you, because you don't want to confront some really problematic truths, which is this guy is a major problem. And kids are just taught. I mean, I can't tell you how many friends I have who suffered horrific physical and sexual abuse. And they were just never spoke about it. Never. So you're you have the ability to speak about all these things pretty openly, like anything that's traumatic or emotional, I guess, you can talk about them. If anything too much, maybe that's something I that's that's some feedback I received. So I was a self diagnosed sociopath. No, not self diagnosed. I was diagnosed. Self proclaimed? Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, it's my it's a personality disorder. That's what it you know, it sounds like you can navigate emotions better than most neuro typical individuals. Yeah. Who sweep things under the rug? Right? Because they don't emotions don't affect me that way. So I completely understand. I understand why somebody would not want to have opened something that's painful. I can't relate to it, but I can understand it. But my response is, well, you gotta because think of it like a hose. If you have a hose and there's water running, if you plug the end of that hose, you think that water is just gonna know it's gonna find another way out. And then if you okay, I'll just slap some tape, then we'll find another. It does not just go away. Pressure keeps coming. Yes. You know, sexual abuse, whether you talk about it. It's coming out. Yeah, it's coming out in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, of course, because you're a person and you are existing in a body that is screaming for treatment for help for release. So you know, the mind likes has a lot of ideas on, you know, we just bury that. It's like, well, that body ain't buried. With the US Bank Smartly Visa signature card, you earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. No quarterly activations, no categories to track just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Think about those bigger everyday purchases, travel, groceries, things for the house where afterward you realize. I could have earned cash back on that. That's the kind of opportunity that adds up over time. Visit usbank.com slash smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from VisaUSA, Inc. Some restrictions may apply. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Ever think, what if you could go after what you actually want and make a real difference? You're not alone. For over 50 years, Walden University has helped working adults get the W, the knowledge, the skills, and the confidence to build the future they want. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu. Walden University, set a course for change, certified to operate by Chev. Listen, I have a lot of compassion. You said the thing is grace, you know, having grace for yourself, and I have a lot of compassion for a lot of people now, knowing the amount of self-imposed, I guess, pain I put on myself, internal pain and conflict, and probably external pain and conflict I put on myself growing up because I didn't have the emotional tools to regulate processing a lot of stuff. You know, my parents divorced, my brother being in prison, but the sexual abuse that I faced was probably the hardest because I never spoke about it. I thought I was worthless. I thought I would never amount to anything. I thought no one would love me, right? And that's probably the biggest fear of every human being. It's like no one's going to love me if they knew this about me. How could someone love me if they knew this about me? You know, it's like all these concerns. And when I turned 30, I started opening up about it for the first time, so for 25 years, you know, I never spoke about it, but every day would just run like a movie inside my mind and in my body, I'd just replay it, you know, and then try to numb it in different ways, sports, girls, whatever, business, money, you know, all these things. Until I learned how to release it and talk about it. And once I communicated it for the first time, it felt like I was going to die. Like I felt like my life is over, no one's going to talk to me, like my business has done everything. But that's really when life began, like life began the moment I spoke about my experience, my painful experience and, and, and not minimizing it, not saying, well, other people had it worse. Well, it could have been worse. It was only this one time it could have been every day for a year, like not minimizing any part of, like you said, but actually like being in the experience of it and, and letting the emotions out, which was scary for me. But it was like the beginning of a healing journey that has allowed me to have incredible peace and freedom that didn't happen overnight. But now it's like I have this peace and freedom and a truer self-confidence about my internal container that you talked about. Whereas before I would people please a lot. Then after I learned how to create more boundaries, but I didn't have those tools, you know, I didn't have that. And so I have compassion for, because one in one in four women have been sexually abused and one in six men. When we have the awareness that we can share about anything, whether it be sexual abuse or just any type of pain, it is a massive release, like you said, and having a safe container to talk about it. So the, the power that you're talking about of these three things, creating boundaries, modeling apologies, and how does something make you feel when something happens to you? A lot of the time we don't have the ability to express our feelings in a healthy way. And when we do, I really feel like the world can heal when we're able to have that. I think it's going to be harder with social media, with AI, with how fast everything is. Like you said, most of us don't take the time or the space to sit with our thoughts and our feelings and allow ourselves to process because it takes time. Yeah, it really does. And it takes minimizing distractions, not being on your phone, not watching TV and sitting with it. Sitting with someone else or a small group or yourself, journaling, processing, however you want to therapeutically release these things, it takes time. And what it also takes is the ability to prioritize self, which is also, you know, you're burying the lead a little bit there, but I would argue that you had enough sense of self-worth to understand at 13 that you needed to go. And that's... I didn't know why. Yes, but you lobbied for yourself. You advocated for yourself. I'm not safe. I need to get out. Right. And that's, if I had a fourth thing, I would say that learning how to advocate for yourself as a child is critical. Being able to say, I don't want this for myself anymore is a complete sentence. That's it. What if you're a parent and you're like, okay, they just don't want to have a disciplined life or they don't want this thing, but I know as a parent that it's going to be better for them in the future. Give me an example. Right. My parents want me to go to music lesson after school or something like that where it's like, no, I don't want this anymore. Right. I think... The difference between... Yeah. I don't know. I was talking to somebody yesterday who said such a cool thing. She was talking about quitting and she said that someone told her you're not allowed to quit on a bad day. You got to... If you want to quit, you got to quit on a high. And what'd she say? And she said it was life-changing for her because it's like, yeah, you can quit anytime you want as long as you're not quitting on a bad day. Interesting. So, but I think there's nuance. Obviously if I'm dealing with my kids and what they don't want for themselves anymore is school. Okay. Well, unfortunately it doesn't work for that one. But saying, I don't feel comfortable around that person. Teaching kids how to listen to their bodies. I was talking with a friend two days ago and he was saying, yeah, I'm kind of learning for the first time to pay attention to how my body feels when I'm around people. And I'm noticing that there are a lot of people in my life that my body does not feel good around. Interesting. And I'm learning to say, yeah, I don't think I'm going to hang out with that person anymore. And so many people feel like they need to add to that sentence or that statement. Like, I don't want to hang out with them anymore. I have to justify it. I have to explain why. You don't. There are lots of people who, I don't like that person. And it's something's off and I don't have to justify it beyond that. And I think that a lot of parents talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. You know, they'll say, you know, you tell me if, you know, if anything ever makes you uncomfortable or anywhere. But then they're in a marriage that's broken and has no boundaries and they've, you know. Well, what they're saying is unconsciously, I want you to let me know if anybody makes you uncomfortable as long as it's not inconvenient for me. And they don't realize it, but that's what it is. And I think teaching kids, pay attention to how your body feels when you're around somebody. You'll notice those, like, I don't like this. And no is also a complete sentence. And learning that, learning how to listen to instinct, especially in today's world where it's so chaotic and things are going so quickly, you can teach kids how to listen to that little voice. It's like, you always know, your body knows. Your body is 10 steps ahead of you because we're animals, right? We have instincts that are suppressed because we're now civilized and we do things. But everybody, everybody has met that person at some point and gone, no. Thumbs off. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about shame, because isn't it good for us to have some shame? Yes. It's like good for us to do bad things, right? Yeah. But a narcissist is filled with shame. Unconscious shame. Unconscious. Okay. Unconscious. Oh yeah. They would. Yeah. A narcissist will tell you they're not ashamed of anything. But it's like in their body. Yeah. So how do we have, you know, how much is too much or not enough and is it good to have shame? And I guess as a sociopath, do you experience shame? How does that work? I don't. So it's good to have. I do think it's good to have. I do think. I mean, everything in moderation, right? Sure, sure. I think that these constructs like holistically serve a really good purpose. Guilt in moderation is really, it's important to have guilt. But if it's all day long. That's the problem. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people's, I think, have been utilized, particularly by religion to keep people in check and they become overly utilized. You know, there have been lots of times where it's where I've thought to myself, yeah, shame would have been helpful in that. Like maybe I should have had a little shame. Yeah. Like, I can see how that could have saved me, you know, a few steps. Yeah. Yeah. You just have no shame. If you do something that you know is bad, would you have any shame? No. Intellectually, I can say I should not have done that. But it's not a feeling. You don't feel it. No. If you intentionally hurt someone's feelings or do something, you steal from someone or whatever, you won't feel shame. I really don't steal. Right. I'm just saying, hypothetically, you were going to go and like, you knew this was not your property and you were going to steal this cell phone from someone or whatever. You wouldn't feel shame? No. What would you, what would you feel? If I'm going to do something like that, I'm going to find, I'm going to justify it. And whether that justification is right or wrong, I'm just really thinking about it. And I really... Will you think I'm doing something wrong? Yeah. Will you think I am wrong? Yes. Or I'm doing something wrong? Both. So you'll think, I am wrong, I'm doing something wrong, but I don't feel any shame. I don't give a shit. So then, but there will be consequences, potentially, if you get caught. And also if you don't get caught, is there a consequence internally for you? No. Is there a consequence for your soul? No. But that is why I work really hard to be disciplined because I don't... What about your nervous system? Is there a consequence for your... No. In fact, no. If anything, it's like, let's go, you know, which is why... Freedom. Yes. Like, yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's a slippery slope in that because I know that I don't have these things, they are, they're like security blankets or, or, or, uh, safety nets. Okay. People, you know, I think rely on things, constructs like shame and guilt too much. They rely on those things to keep them in line. What do you rely on? Internal philosophy. And I think... A moral code. Yeah. Interesting. And there's a lot of argument on, we, you know, how I said before, it has to come from the heart. And it's like, and I often quote Penn Jillette. Somebody had asked him, well, cause he's a famous atheist. And somebody said, well, if you don't believe in God, what's to stop you from hurting people all you want? And he said, I do hurt people all I want. It's just that that amount is zero. And I really responded to that because it's like, well, without shame or guilt, what's to stop you from stealing and killing people all you want? And I think I do still steal and kill people all I want. That amount is zero. You know, relying... It's because you have a philosophic code internally. Yes. I think relying on constructs like shame, guilt, remorse, or God, if those are the things you're relying on to keep you in line, again, it's a self-damning argument. It's, yeah. So what you're saying is you have no control. You're saying that I would do these things, but I would feel too guilty. I would steal, but I would feel too guilty. And what I'm saying is, well, I don't steal because I don't steal. Not because... Is it because you don't want to steal? Or is it because you know it's wrong? Or because it's... I really... I don't have a... I don't really... I don't. Yeah. I don't have a... Because again, it's like logic. I... And there was a long time where I was really attracted to vigilante actions. Like what? Well, I was thinking like when I would steal, this woman was, oh, she was awful. She was just the worst. She's one of those just really awful humans, just constantly being nasty, constantly taking advantage of people. And I remember stealing from her and feeling just so good about it. And literally just taking the thing I stole and handing it to someone on the streets. I didn't want it. Yeah. So it was... And I remember thinking... It's like justice. It was. And I remember thinking this could... This is a slippery slope. I could get used to this. Like I could find... Oh, yeah. I could justify doing bad things. With everything. Yeah. Because... And it's like because I'm... Because again, I... My intent is not to do harm. My intent is I don't want this thing. I just... I want... I don't like that you're doing this. Yes. And I don't have these constructs keeping me in line. And I'm also charming and I can get really close to you. And I can get you to trust me. Meanwhile, I'm going to stick it to you so hard you're not going to see it coming. That can be seductive for someone. And I would also argue that I was probably... That desire to do that was stemming from a place of feeling of like it on my own feelings of unfairness. You know how everybody is... Everybody is allowed to basically do whatever they want. They can lie. They can... But as... Because I'm sociopathic. I'm automatically evil. But you're doing these things. I'm never allowed to lie. We have the... I've mentioned this before, but I often use the Santa Claus example, how we're never allowed to lie. Don't lie. But then... But what is this whole situation over here where we're creating not just one lie, but a whole world. And when that world is revealed as a farce, again, it's like, oh, it's fine. No, I have to be honest with you. It's not fun. That's... I remember when I found out... How old were you? It was like kindergarten. It's like five or six. It was so funny. And my mother, she broke down because she couldn't handle it, the lying. She felt too guilty. And she was like, I have to tell you something. Santa's not real. And I was pissed. Yeah. I was pissed. I'm like, what? Why'd you lie to me? Like, see? No reindeer either? No. Oh, what about the tooth? That's a lie. And the Easter Bunny? You're all liars. All of you are liars. Every single person on the street. And I remember it was... And hypocritical, too. You're all hypocrites. So I think a lot of the stuff that I would engage in, the vigilante, slippery slope, was coming from a place of wanting to balance those scales. I can see that. It does make sense. It makes sense. But again, take a foster kid. It's like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It makes sense. But again, take a foster kid. Yeah. Take someone without every imaginable privilege, you know. They're not coming at it from a place of acknowledgement. They're coming at it from a place of... Survival. Yes. And I am gonna burn it all... Oh, yeah. To the ground. Man. We've got a fascinating book, it's called Sociopath, a memoir by Patrick Gagne. They can get the book right now, they can follow you on social media as well. It's at Patrick Gagne, correct? Yeah. Where else can people follow you or support you besides the book and on social media? There's a great organization. It's the Society for the Prevention of Disorders of Aggression. But it's a non-profit that's basically aimed at directing people who struggle with antisocial personality disorders, sociopathy and psychopathy. It's an incredible resource that offers diagnostic tools, a list of clinicians that specialize in this work, YouTube videos, research studies. And I've directed a lot of people there. It's an incredible organization. It's the only organization that is aimed at helping people. So when you ask how could you support me, it's, I would say, you can support me by supporting this community that needs it. Awesome, we'll link that up as well. You know, it's the woman that runs it, Abby, she is a neuroscientist at Georgetown and she works with children who are antisocial. And she is phenomenal in her dedication to helping screen these kids and get them the treatment that they need before the disorder progresses. And if we had more resources for researchers and scientists like her, we would have less of this issue. That's great. How does someone spot a sociopath or a psychopath, whether they're dating someone, whether they're in a relationship for a period of time, whether it's a potential business partnership they're getting into, is there ways to spot this? Not in the ways that, you know, the fun questionnaires like to suggest. But I would say behavioral tells, you know, are gonna be a big clue. But I really try to steer clear of diagnosing just on behavior, because not everybody acts the same. But where we are going to be the same is emotional affect. You're looking for somebody who doesn't experience emotion in a neurotypical way. And asking that question, how does it feel when you feel, is a really powerful question if they're willing to be honest. If you're willing to have that conversation and if someone believes that you are willing to accept them for what they are able to feel and not feel, and you're not gonna clutch your pearls the second they start talking, if you're not going to judge everything against neurotypical reactions and emotions, if you can be that container, you're likely to get more honest answers. Okay, cool. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end. It's called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on Earth. You get to create and do everything that you imagine from this moment until then. But for whatever reason, on the last day, you have to take all of your work with you. The book has to go, this conversation, anything you create, it's not in this world anymore. It has to go with you when you pass. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world that we would get to keep, we would remember. I call it three truths. What would be those three truths for you? There is nothing inherently evil about limited access to emotion, too. It's not what we feel, it's what we do. Three, it's already yours. What? Whatever. Whatever you want, it's already yours. If you can operate from a place of, yeah, it's already mine, then you don't have to live in want. You don't have to live in need. It's already yours. Operate from a place of fulfillment now. Not I will be when, but it's already yours. How do you do that in your life? If there's something you want that you don't have now, how do you say, it's already mine, even though it's technically not yet? Well, it's interesting because one of the hallmarks or one of the traits of psychopathy is unrealistic life goals. And I always say, well, I would argue with the word unrealistic because my goals might seem unrealistic to a neurotypical person because that's because I don't internalize failure. So when I was starting out with the book and they said, what do you want? I was like, I want this, this, this, this, and this. And they said, well, that's, no. That's what it's gonna be. You don't have to believe it, but I've decided that that's how it's gonna be and that's what it is. And I understand that that's because of my personality. It's unrealistic, it's unreasonable. I sound like an insane person, but it's not coming from a place of I'm the best, I'm gonna have it because I'm the best, I'm gonna have it because I have so much pride or so much. It's, no, it's already mine. I already have it. It's just a matter of time before you understand that I already have it. And it's funny because somebody said, well, that's like manifestation. And I read about it and I was like, oh, you know, it's funny, it is manifestation. But when I started looking at manifestation, it's like all these suggestions, these are all psychopathic traits. This is basically a psychopathic point of view where it's, well, don't worry about what other people think. I don't. Don't worry about failure. I don't. Ask for whatever you want and don't think about being in trouble. Don't think about it not being available. I would never think about that. Right, so when I approach something, as long as it's never anything like I want something horrible to befall someone, but it's something where I can help other people like me, it's very matter of fact. There's no emotion to it. This is what's going to happen next. Because it's just that. Yes. So it's almost like healthy psychopathic traits is the ultimate key to manifestation. I would, yes. What would be the main traits that psychopaths have that allow them to manifest whatever they want in a healthy way? We don't internalize failure. Most people are afraid to fail and they don't act. Because it's tied to emotion, okay? Interesting. Which is not the same thing and it's so important to understand. That doesn't mean we don't fail. I fail all the time. Right, right. But you don't internalize I am a failure. No. Or I'm bad and wrong or no one loves me, no one likes me. No. Which is what most people struggle with. Correct. It's they, they, it's. They can't deal with the judgment. Right, where it's like, it's the same thing as what's wrong with admitting wrongdoing? What's wrong with failing? Who cares? Let's do it again. You know, and I. Interesting. Before I wrote this, I had wanted to release, I wanted to write a book, basically, A Sociopath for Dummies. And they, and my publisher was like, no, people want the stories. And I didn't, a memoir, sure. But, I mean, yeah, I guess that was a failure. But I, okay. It wasn't, it wasn't something that I was attached to emotionally. And I think that's really the number one, the number one thing to succeed is that if you're not afraid to fail, you're also not afraid to take risks. You know, I'm not risk averse. Again, which isn't to say that I, that doesn't mean I wanna, you know, screw people out of money or cheat my way to the top. But it's like, no, I'll take a risk. Because what's a risk? Like, looking foolish? Looking, looking like a. And you don't care if you embarrass yourself or look foolish. No, I wrote a book talking about how I broke into people's homes and stole cars. You know, it's, and I remember so many people saying, well, how does your, how has your life changed now that you've admitted all these things? It's like, I had already admitted to them. Like, well, now the whole world knows. Look, I don't care. You know, it's like, people talk about staying out of the comments. It would never occur to me to read a comment. I, no. You don't care about the opinions of others? Good or bad. Really? Yeah. And it's, and to say I don't care, it's not, because that can be interpreted in a callous way. It just doesn't affect me in either way. It doesn't, I don't get any information from that. Now, when people write to me and ask for help with their kid or when I've received, I mean, I received thousands upon thousands of messages and letters and emails from people saying that they feel seen and they're so happy that they don't feel like they have to engage in as much destructive behavior. That means something to me, because it's what I set out to do, right? I wanted others like me to feel less alone. I wanted others, other neurotypical people to feel like I'm not crazy. So that means something to me. Well, I would acknowledge you, Patrick, for opening up about all this stuff, because I think you've helped a lot of people. Same. Like you said. To you. Because there's not really much information out there about this stuff. And so I acknowledge you for, and maybe in your mind it's not vulnerable, but opening yourself up and sharing with the world and showing people a different perspective of this neurodivergent diagnosis that you've had and that you've experienced. And also showing people that it's not like, you're not the boogeyman. No. And not every psychopath or sociopath who has been diagnosed as that is the boogeyman. Correct. There are extremes. There are extremes, yes. But there's extremes with anything. Yes, exactly. So thank you for all the sheep down here. Thank you. I've got one final question. What's your definition of greatness? Awareness. Awareness. Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. There you go. Patrick, thank you for being here. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you, and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. ♪ What you gonna do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do ♪ Hiring for my small business used to mean sorting through a pile of resumes and hoping I didn't miss the right person. Then I tried LinkedIn Hiring Pro. It's like the hiring partner I always wished I had. It reviews every applicant and surfaces the strongest fit candidates for my role so I know who to talk to first. You know, 60% of hirers found a candidate to interview in the first week using LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free on LinkedIn today at linkedin.com slash Pandora. If you wanna grow your small business, LinkedIn Premium All-in-One is the way to go. It can help you sell, market, and hire all in one place. Unfortunately, it can't stop you from working through your lunch. Mm-hmm, yes, we can definitely get you that shipment to, before Tuesday, absolutely. Yum, grow your small business with LinkedIn Premium All-in-One. Try for free at linkedin.com slash All-in-One.