Clay’s CEO Thinks Differently About Everything

I feel like people don't talk enough I feel like people don't talk enough about things that actually matter in about things that actually matter in about things that actually matter in building a business. I think capitalism building a business. I think capitalism building a business. I think capitalism rewards risk. You need courage to make a rewards risk. You need courage to make a rewards risk. You need courage to make a leap and um actually commit to these leap and um actually commit to these leap and um actually commit to these ideas. To take real risk, you need to ideas. To take real risk, you need to ideas. To take real risk, you need to not know what's going to happen not know what's going to happen not know what's going to happen genuinely. So you're you're going to genuinely. So you're you're going to genuinely. So you're you're going to discover something new. You can fail in discover something new. You can fail in discover something new. You can fail in a way that feels scary or maybe a way that feels scary or maybe a way that feels scary or maybe associated with shame. And when you're associated with shame. And when you're associated with shame. And when you're doing that, you're genuinely about to doing that, you're genuinely about to doing that, you're genuinely about to discover something new. [music] That's discover something new. [music] That's discover something new. [music] That's when you can take real risk. >> Can you describe the the long strange >> Can you describe the the long strange [music] journey you've been on of like [music] journey you've been on of like [music] journey you've been on of like why you started and then what it was why you started and then what it was why you started and then what it was like to exist and have done some like to exist and have done some like to exist and have done some interesting stuff when this thing interesting stuff when this thing interesting stuff when this thing happened and then how you took advantage happened and then how you took advantage happened and then how you took advantage of it. I find the two chapter story so of it. I find the two chapter story so of it. I find the two chapter story so uh so interesting. We started with the uh so interesting. We started with the uh so interesting. We started with the really abstract ambition of how do we really abstract ambition of how do we really abstract ambition of how do we give the power of programming to more give the power of programming to more give the power of programming to more people. My co-founder Nicola and I were people. My co-founder Nicola and I were people. My co-founder Nicola and I were really we like worked in product even really we like worked in product even really we like worked in product even though we both studied engineering and though we both studied engineering and though we both studied engineering and we were trying to build I think it was we were trying to build I think it was we were trying to build I think it was really just hey you're in the 21st really just hey you're in the 21st really just hey you're in the 21st century you have computers that can do century you have computers that can do century you have computers that can do things for you and if you can't tell things for you and if you can't tell things for you and if you can't tell them what to do then you can't capture them what to do then you can't capture them what to do then you can't capture any of the value that's being created any of the value that's being created any of the value that's being created and we had a lot of ideas and we wanted and we had a lot of ideas and we wanted and we had a lot of ideas and we wanted to build them and every time we tried to to build them and every time we tried to to build them and every time we tried to build something it was taking so long. I build something it was taking so long. I build something it was taking so long. I was also starting to play around with was also starting to play around with was also starting to play around with producing music and I really like tools producing music and I really like tools producing music and I really like tools like Ableton Live. I have an idea. I can like Ableton Live. I have an idea. I can like Ableton Live. I have an idea. I can extract it from my mind and into the extract it from my mind and into the extract it from my mind and into the machine. Um, and we were also in this machine. Um, and we were also in this machine. Um, and we were also in this uh kick of like looking at the history uh kick of like looking at the history uh kick of like looking at the history of computation and things like in the of computation and things like in the of computation and things like in the 1960s like the mother, you know, the 1960s like the mother, you know, the 1960s like the mother, you know, the mother of all demos. seeing the fluidity mother of all demos. seeing the fluidity mother of all demos. seeing the fluidity of the interaction between you and a of the interaction between you and a of the interaction between you and a computer needs to be super fluid for it computer needs to be super fluid for it computer needs to be super fluid for it actually to lead you to the next stage actually to lead you to the next stage actually to lead you to the next stage of thinking, right? You need like low of thinking, right? You need like low of thinking, right? You need like low latency between I have an idea, it latency between I have an idea, it latency between I have an idea, it happened and um and because we were happened and um and because we were happened and um and because we were coding, we felt kind of that that coding, we felt kind of that that coding, we felt kind of that that adrenaline that everybody's feeling adrenaline that everybody's feeling adrenaline that everybody's feeling right now, right? Which is, hey, I can right now, right? Which is, hey, I can right now, right? Which is, hey, I can tell the machine to do something and it tell the machine to do something and it tell the machine to do something and it does. In the 21st century, it really is does. In the 21st century, it really is does. In the 21st century, it really is like the material is computation. It's like the material is computation. It's like the material is computation. It's kind of like if in the past it was oil, kind of like if in the past it was oil, kind of like if in the past it was oil, you know, or steel or whatever it is, you know, or steel or whatever it is, you know, or steel or whatever it is, today it's computation. Um, and so the today it's computation. Um, and so the today it's computation. Um, and so the more we can give that to more people, more we can give that to more people, more we can give that to more people, the more interesting things happen, um, the more interesting things happen, um, the more interesting things happen, um, the more egalitarian it is. Um, and so the more egalitarian it is. Um, and so the more egalitarian it is. Um, and so it's almost it's kind of interesting it's almost it's kind of interesting it's almost it's kind of interesting because that was our desire and there because that was our desire and there because that was our desire and there were no LLMs which actually we started were no LLMs which actually we started were no LLMs which actually we started off by thinking about the terminal and off by thinking about the terminal and off by thinking about the terminal and we're like how do we reinvent the we're like how do we reinvent the we're like how do we reinvent the terminal where you know engineers are terminal where you know engineers are terminal where you know engineers are spending all of their time and then spending all of their time and then spending all of their time and then we're like well that's just going to we're like well that's just going to we're like well that's just going to speed up engineers. We need to find speed up engineers. We need to find speed up engineers. We need to find something that gives that power to more something that gives that power to more something that gives that power to more people. In 2017 we started thinking do people. In 2017 we started thinking do people. In 2017 we started thinking do we give it to consumers or business we give it to consumers or business we give it to consumers or business users? We ended up deciding business users? We ended up deciding business users? We ended up deciding business users for a variety of reasons. Um and users for a variety of reasons. Um and users for a variety of reasons. Um and then within that we were like okay which then within that we were like okay which then within that we were like okay which department in a business actually has a department in a business actually has a department in a business actually has a ton of ideas but isn't able to execute ton of ideas but isn't able to execute ton of ideas but isn't able to execute them um and landed on kind of like sales them um and landed on kind of like sales them um and landed on kind of like sales and marketing where we think people are and marketing where we think people are and marketing where we think people are really creative but they don't have the really creative but they don't have the really creative but they don't have the ability to turn a lot of their ideas um ability to turn a lot of their ideas um ability to turn a lot of their ideas um into reality. I'll give you one example into reality. I'll give you one example into reality. I'll give you one example that's real today that is kind of wild, that's real today that is kind of wild, that's real today that is kind of wild, but we have one company that sells to but we have one company that sells to but we have one company that sells to businesses that have a lot of garbage, businesses that have a lot of garbage, businesses that have a lot of garbage, right? So now they're using Google um right? So now they're using Google um right? So now they're using Google um what's called satellite view to see what's called satellite view to see what's called satellite view to see which areas have a lot of accumulation which areas have a lot of accumulation which areas have a lot of accumulation of garbage and then they kind of figure of garbage and then they kind of figure of garbage and then they kind of figure out, okay, that's a good business to out, okay, that's a good business to out, okay, that's a good business to sell to. So that's an idea that you sell to. So that's an idea that you sell to. So that's an idea that you might have, but it might be super hard might have, but it might be super hard might have, but it might be super hard to execute that at scale. And now to execute that at scale. And now to execute that at scale. And now something like Clay can actually something like Clay can actually something like Clay can actually translate that for you. Because of that, translate that for you. Because of that, translate that for you. Because of that, because the whole intention around Clay because the whole intention around Clay because the whole intention around Clay was how do we give the power of was how do we give the power of was how do we give the power of programming to people, that's kind of programming to people, that's kind of programming to people, that's kind of how the name came because we're like, how the name came because we're like, how the name came because we're like, okay, it's go to market, but now you're okay, it's go to market, but now you're okay, it's go to market, but now you're an engineer. And so we came up with that an engineer. And so we came up with that an engineer. And so we came up with that before it was really possible to um you before it was really possible to um you before it was really possible to um you know, use LMS to fully code, but it it know, use LMS to fully code, but it it know, use LMS to fully code, but it it was how do you systematically think was how do you systematically think was how do you systematically think about a problem and break it down and about a problem and break it down and about a problem and break it down and then execute it? Um, and I I think we've then execute it? Um, and I I think we've then execute it? Um, and I I think we've also kept that ethos in the company. Um, also kept that ethos in the company. Um, also kept that ethos in the company. Um, and that's what makes us really and that's what makes us really and that's what makes us really different than everybody else in our different than everybody else in our different than everybody else in our space. There are simple things that space. There are simple things that space. There are simple things that we've been saying out loud, but I think we've been saying out loud, but I think we've been saying out loud, but I think people don't really believe that that's people don't really believe that that's people don't really believe that that's why it works. So, one is it's a creative why it works. So, one is it's a creative why it works. So, one is it's a creative task. And so, if it's a creative task, task. And so, if it's a creative task, task. And so, if it's a creative task, we need to leave it somewhat open-ended. we need to leave it somewhat open-ended. we need to leave it somewhat open-ended. A lot of companies that counterposition A lot of companies that counterposition A lot of companies that counterposition to clay or in the space are like, "Hey, to clay or in the space are like, "Hey, to clay or in the space are like, "Hey, what you really want is salespeople are what you really want is salespeople are what you really want is salespeople are people have literally used the word coin people have literally used the word coin people have literally used the word coin operated, right?" And so what you need operated, right?" And so what you need operated, right?" And so what you need is something that's super easy to use. is something that's super easy to use. is something that's super easy to use. It gives you the answer. It tells you It gives you the answer. It tells you It gives you the answer. It tells you who you're selling to and what you're who you're selling to and what you're who you're selling to and what you're saying and it just works. Um whereas we saying and it just works. Um whereas we saying and it just works. Um whereas we think you always need in sales or it to think you always need in sales or it to think you always need in sales or it to find go to market alpha. So like how are find go to market alpha. So like how are find go to market alpha. So like how are you different than everybody else you different than everybody else you different than everybody else otherwise it's just noise and then Clay otherwise it's just noise and then Clay otherwise it's just noise and then Clay in order to do that you need to have a in order to do that you need to have a in order to do that you need to have a really powerful tool that allows you to really powerful tool that allows you to really powerful tool that allows you to experiment quickly and try things out experiment quickly and try things out experiment quickly and try things out and see what works and and so we built and see what works and and so we built and see what works and and so we built that instead which was very that instead which was very that instead which was very counterintuitive. counterintuitive. counterintuitive. >> Describe the takeoff of chapter 2 of >> Describe the takeoff of chapter 2 of >> Describe the takeoff of chapter 2 of okay now LLM's come out sort of what okay now LLM's come out sort of what okay now LLM's come out sort of what happened in that what that moment felt happened in that what that moment felt happened in that what that moment felt like what the sort of subchapters have like what the sort of subchapters have like what the sort of subchapters have been since. been since. been since. >> Yeah. What's interesting in that story >> Yeah. What's interesting in that story >> Yeah. What's interesting in that story that I that is maybe worth talking a bit that I that is maybe worth talking a bit that I that is maybe worth talking a bit more about is that it wasn't um as more about is that it wasn't um as more about is that it wasn't um as simple as you know like this was back in simple as you know like this was back in simple as you know like this was back in 2022 and we we had made a decision to 2022 and we we had made a decision to 2022 and we we had made a decision to say okay we are targeting kind of go to say okay we are targeting kind of go to say okay we are targeting kind of go to market teams specifically sales market teams specifically sales market teams specifically sales specifically we're going to start with specifically we're going to start with specifically we're going to start with outbound specifically we're going to outbound specifically we're going to outbound specifically we're going to start with people who want to get data start with people who want to get data start with people who want to get data from lots of different data providers in from lots of different data providers in from lots of different data providers in order to do outbound um and in in fact order to do outbound um and in in fact order to do outbound um and in in fact it's going to be agencies and not it's going to be agencies and not it's going to be agencies and not startups and we're going to do a lot of startups and we're going to do a lot of startups and we're going to do a lot of what we're doing and support them in what we're doing and support them in what we're doing and support them in public uh and build a community. So we public uh and build a community. So we public uh and build a community. So we took a lot of decisions that I think took a lot of decisions that I think took a lot of decisions that I think were nonobvious. were nonobvious. were nonobvious. Um, and the main thing that happened was Um, and the main thing that happened was Um, and the main thing that happened was really the courage and commitment I really the courage and commitment I really the courage and commitment I think to making those decisions that think to making those decisions that think to making those decisions that actually allowed the company to take off actually allowed the company to take off actually allowed the company to take off cuz the company was already taking off cuz the company was already taking off cuz the company was already taking off before uh like chat GPT came out and we before uh like chat GPT came out and we before uh like chat GPT came out and we were well set up to include kind of like were well set up to include kind of like were well set up to include kind of like LLM LLMs in Clay because one we were set LLM LLMs in Clay because one we were set LLM LLMs in Clay because one we were set up to allow any integration to anything up to allow any integration to anything up to allow any integration to anything and two we for a coding like product and two we for a coding like product and two we for a coding like product just designed with go to market just designed with go to market just designed with go to market primitives. Um and so as soon as we had primitives. Um and so as soon as we had primitives. Um and so as soon as we had LLMs it just boosted everything. There LLMs it just boosted everything. There LLMs it just boosted everything. There were three kind of like core assumptions were three kind of like core assumptions were three kind of like core assumptions that we made. Um and I actually think that we made. Um and I actually think that we made. Um and I actually think this is how to build a really big this is how to build a really big this is how to build a really big company and one that grows really company and one that grows really company and one that grows really quickly. So we went from one to 100 in quickly. So we went from one to 100 in quickly. So we went from one to 100 in two years. But that wouldn't work if the two years. But that wouldn't work if the two years. But that wouldn't work if the if we weren't pointing in the right if we weren't pointing in the right if we weren't pointing in the right direction. So you need to kind of set direction. So you need to kind of set direction. So you need to kind of set everything up so that you're pointing in everything up so that you're pointing in everything up so that you're pointing in the right direction so that when the the right direction so that when the the right direction so that when the wave comes, you go with it and you're wave comes, you go with it and you're wave comes, you go with it and you're not fighting it. So for us, we made a not fighting it. So for us, we made a not fighting it. So for us, we made a couple of decisions. One, people in go couple of decisions. One, people in go couple of decisions. One, people in go to market are creative. And so we're to market are creative. And so we're to market are creative. And so we're going to give them the most powerful going to give them the most powerful going to give them the most powerful tool. If you were going to give the most tool. If you were going to give the most tool. If you were going to give the most powerful tool instead of the kind of powerful tool instead of the kind of powerful tool instead of the kind of like the most simple out of the box like the most simple out of the box like the most simple out of the box tool, then you need to find the right tool, then you need to find the right tool, then you need to find the right customer or user for it. And for that we customer or user for it. And for that we customer or user for it. And for that we said okay we're doing it for revops said okay we're doing it for revops said okay we're doing it for revops um which is an existing kind of role and um which is an existing kind of role and um which is an existing kind of role and we're going to call the subset of um or we're going to call the subset of um or we're going to call the subset of um or the the the word jobs to be done go to the the the word jobs to be done go to the the the word jobs to be done go to market engineering to give it um a a market engineering to give it um a a market engineering to give it um a a framing right this is the tasks to be framing right this is the tasks to be framing right this is the tasks to be done are all the things that you need to done are all the things that you need to done are all the things that you need to do like the activities to grow your do like the activities to grow your do like the activities to grow your business right remove kind of any business right remove kind of any business right remove kind of any obstacles to growth um and then the last obstacles to growth um and then the last obstacles to growth um and then the last part was we're going to charge charge uh part was we're going to charge charge uh part was we're going to charge charge uh for usage instead of per seat because for usage instead of per seat because for usage instead of per seat because we're trying to get more productivity. we're trying to get more productivity. we're trying to get more productivity. And so if you have fewer people, we And so if you have fewer people, we And so if you have fewer people, we didn't want that to be something that, didn't want that to be something that, didn't want that to be something that, you know, is is an anti-inccentive for you know, is is an anti-inccentive for you know, is is an anti-inccentive for us. us. us. >> So if you just look at those three >> So if you just look at those three >> So if you just look at those three decisions, actually almost every other decisions, actually almost every other decisions, actually almost every other decision in the company falls decision in the company falls decision in the company falls immediately out of those. Anyone can immediately out of those. Anyone can immediately out of those. Anyone can come up with what we should do next if come up with what we should do next if come up with what we should do next if you believe these three things. And I you believe these three things. And I you believe these three things. And I think that's the best way also to run a think that's the best way also to run a think that's the best way also to run a company that's growing really quickly is company that's growing really quickly is company that's growing really quickly is because I have to just communicate to because I have to just communicate to because I have to just communicate to you these are the three things that you these are the three things that you these are the three things that we're assuming and whenever you're we're assuming and whenever you're we're assuming and whenever you're making a decision check to see if it making a decision check to see if it making a decision check to see if it works within these three concept. I mean works within these three concept. I mean works within these three concept. I mean I feel like people don't talk enough I feel like people don't talk enough I feel like people don't talk enough about about about the things that actually matter in the things that actually matter in the things that actually matter in building a business. I had this dream building a business. I had this dream building a business. I had this dream actually where um it was kind of like a actually where um it was kind of like a actually where um it was kind of like a vision where I saw like lots of statues vision where I saw like lots of statues vision where I saw like lots of statues in a kind of like modern city but I was in a kind of like modern city but I was in a kind of like modern city but I was wondering like oh we don't build statues wondering like oh we don't build statues wondering like oh we don't build statues anymore. If you look at like old kind of anymore. If you look at like old kind of anymore. If you look at like old kind of like republics, they would have statues like republics, they would have statues like republics, they would have statues for concepts like courage or you know um for concepts like courage or you know um for concepts like courage or you know um integrity or whatever and there are like integrity or whatever and there are like integrity or whatever and there are like gods for these different things. And I gods for these different things. And I gods for these different things. And I feel like we've forgotten that those are feel like we've forgotten that those are feel like we've forgotten that those are the things that actually these abstract the things that actually these abstract the things that actually these abstract kind of ideas or justice or you know kind of ideas or justice or you know kind of ideas or justice or you know whatever it is that matter in the moment whatever it is that matter in the moment whatever it is that matter in the moment when you're building a company. It it when you're building a company. It it when you're building a company. It it was actually hey you need courage to was actually hey you need courage to was actually hey you need courage to make a leap and um actually commit to make a leap and um actually commit to make a leap and um actually commit to these ideas and then see what is the these ideas and then see what is the these ideas and then see what is the logical conclusion if we take these logical conclusion if we take these logical conclusion if we take these ideas seriously all the way to the end. ideas seriously all the way to the end. ideas seriously all the way to the end. Most software companies try to maximize Most software companies try to maximize Most software companies try to maximize your time on their app to juice your time on their app to juice your time on their app to juice engagement. Ramp does the exact engagement. Ramp does the exact engagement. Ramp does the exact opposite. RAMP understands that no opposite. RAMP understands that no opposite. 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Because you it's it's one thing >> Courage. Because you it's it's one thing >> Courage. Because you it's it's one thing that I've been that I think a lot about that I've been that I think a lot about that I've been that I think a lot about is like real risk. I think capitalism is like real risk. I think capitalism is like real risk. I think capitalism rewards risk um more than anything else. rewards risk um more than anything else. rewards risk um more than anything else. It's not I think a lot of people think It's not I think a lot of people think It's not I think a lot of people think it rewards it's like meritocracy. There it rewards it's like meritocracy. There it rewards it's like meritocracy. There are a lot of people who are working are a lot of people who are working are a lot of people who are working really hard or hard work which I think really hard or hard work which I think really hard or hard work which I think is silly. Um there are a lot of people is silly. Um there are a lot of people is silly. Um there are a lot of people working really hard and not making a lot working really hard and not making a lot working really hard and not making a lot of money. Um so it's not hard work. of money. Um so it's not hard work. of money. Um so it's not hard work. There's some correlation there but it's There's some correlation there but it's There's some correlation there but it's definitely not just that. It it doesn't definitely not just that. It it doesn't definitely not just that. It it doesn't just reward kind of skill. Again, just reward kind of skill. Again, just reward kind of skill. Again, there's a lot of really skilled people. there's a lot of really skilled people. there's a lot of really skilled people. Uh there are people, you know, who do Uh there are people, you know, who do Uh there are people, you know, who do things that I can't even dream of. You things that I can't even dream of. You things that I can't even dream of. You know, they're you're eating a sword or know, they're you're eating a sword or know, they're you're eating a sword or you're like juggling and they're not you're like juggling and they're not you're like juggling and they're not making as much money as someone doing making as much money as someone doing making as much money as someone doing like a YouTube video. You know, I just like a YouTube video. You know, I just like a YouTube video. You know, I just it's clear again that that's not the it's clear again that that's not the it's clear again that that's not the case. I do think it rewards risk. Um case. I do think it rewards risk. Um case. I do think it rewards risk. Um which makes sense as well. I don't have which makes sense as well. I don't have which makes sense as well. I don't have like a strong comment on whether that's like a strong comment on whether that's like a strong comment on whether that's good or bad. I'm just trying to figure good or bad. I'm just trying to figure good or bad. I'm just trying to figure out what's actually happening. out what's actually happening. out what's actually happening. >> And so >> And so >> And so to take real risks and then there's a to take real risks and then there's a to take real risks and then there's a lot of people who think they're taking lot of people who think they're taking lot of people who think they're taking risks but aren't taking real risks, risks but aren't taking real risks, risks but aren't taking real risks, right? I talked to one founder who was right? I talked to one founder who was right? I talked to one founder who was like, you know, went to a good school like, you know, went to a good school like, you know, went to a good school then went to YC and then was telling me then went to YC and then was telling me then went to YC and then was telling me about his company and he's like, "We about his company and he's like, "We about his company and he's like, "We serve sales and we serve recruiting." serve sales and we serve recruiting." serve sales and we serve recruiting." And I was like, "You have to pick one." And I was like, "You have to pick one." And I was like, "You have to pick one." This is where you're actually providing This is where you're actually providing This is where you're actually providing value in picking and and actually value in picking and and actually value in picking and and actually committing yourself um to serving some committing yourself um to serving some committing yourself um to serving some group of people in some specific way. group of people in some specific way. group of people in some specific way. For me, at least my definition of risk For me, at least my definition of risk For me, at least my definition of risk or how I've experienced it is you need or how I've experienced it is you need or how I've experienced it is you need to not know what's going to happen to not know what's going to happen to not know what's going to happen genuinely. So, you're you're going to genuinely. So, you're you're going to genuinely. So, you're you're going to discover something new. And you also discover something new. And you also discover something new. And you also need to have I think it needs to be need to have I think it needs to be need to have I think it needs to be coupled with a high potential for shame. coupled with a high potential for shame. coupled with a high potential for shame. it needs to be you can fail in a way it needs to be you can fail in a way it needs to be you can fail in a way that feels um scary or maybe associated that feels um scary or maybe associated that feels um scary or maybe associated with shame and and and when you're doing with shame and and and when you're doing with shame and and and when you're doing that you're genuinely about to discover that you're genuinely about to discover that you're genuinely about to discover something new and learn from it and something new and learn from it and something new and learn from it and that's that's when you can take real that's that's when you can take real that's that's when you can take real risk and to do that you then need to risk and to do that you then need to risk and to do that you then need to have many traits one of them is courage have many traits one of them is courage have many traits one of them is courage >> let's take justice for a second because >> let's take justice for a second because >> let's take justice for a second because I I want to live like in a stable I I want to live like in a stable I I want to live like in a stable society that allows me to kind like have society that allows me to kind like have society that allows me to kind like have the time and space to think of things. I the time and space to think of things. I the time and space to think of things. I think you know and and just to explore think you know and and just to explore think you know and and just to explore like you know the world is pretty crazy. like you know the world is pretty crazy. like you know the world is pretty crazy. Um I went to see this movie uh called Um I went to see this movie uh called Um I went to see this movie uh called Stop Making Sense. I was uh downstairs Stop Making Sense. I was uh downstairs Stop Making Sense. I was uh downstairs like in the movie theater and I was I like in the movie theater and I was I like in the movie theater and I was I had like a joint that I was about to had like a joint that I was about to had like a joint that I was about to smoke and I was trying to light it up smoke and I was trying to light it up smoke and I was trying to light it up but I didn't have a lighter and so I but I didn't have a lighter and so I but I didn't have a lighter and so I asked a guy uh who was standing there. asked a guy uh who was standing there. asked a guy uh who was standing there. And I was like, "Hey, can I borrow your And I was like, "Hey, can I borrow your And I was like, "Hey, can I borrow your lighter?" And he was like, "Sure. Can I lighter?" And he was like, "Sure. Can I lighter?" And he was like, "Sure. Can I ask you a question?" And I was like, ask you a question?" And I was like, ask you a question?" And I was like, "Yeah, of course." And he was like, "Yeah, of course." And he was like, "Yeah, of course." And he was like, "What is this?" And I was like, "What do "What is this?" And I was like, "What do "What is this?" And I was like, "What do you mean this whole thing?" He was like, you mean this whole thing?" He was like, you mean this whole thing?" He was like, "Yeah, what is this?" And I was like, "Yeah, what is this?" And I was like, "Yeah, what is this?" And I was like, "Well, that's a big question. I haven't "Well, that's a big question. I haven't "Well, that's a big question. I haven't even spoke by joy yet." Like, even spoke by joy yet." Like, even spoke by joy yet." Like, >> well, I mean, if I was just kind of like >> well, I mean, if I was just kind of like >> well, I mean, if I was just kind of like thrown into this and I was like, "What thrown into this and I was like, "What thrown into this and I was like, "What is this?" I think like the world is a is this?" I think like the world is a is this?" I think like the world is a mysterious and kind of like amazing mysterious and kind of like amazing mysterious and kind of like amazing place. And I feel like there's so much place. And I feel like there's so much place. And I feel like there's so much to know. we're just kind of like to know. we're just kind of like to know. we're just kind of like starting to make progress on like how starting to make progress on like how starting to make progress on like how wonderfully weird it is. Um, and we wonderfully weird it is. Um, and we wonderfully weird it is. Um, and we should be spending more time like like should be spending more time like like should be spending more time like like exploring that. Um, and exploring that. Um, and exploring that. Um, and and to do that, I feel like we need and to do that, I feel like we need and to do that, I feel like we need stability. So, and and to get stability, stability. So, and and to get stability, stability. So, and and to get stability, I think you need to have justice between I think you need to have justice between I think you need to have justice between people. I think there's no way no stable people. I think there's no way no stable people. I think there's no way no stable way for some group of people to dominate way for some group of people to dominate way for some group of people to dominate others. others. others. um it just doesn't work. No matter how um it just doesn't work. No matter how um it just doesn't work. No matter how strong you think you are, um the other strong you think you are, um the other strong you think you are, um the other person is a tremendous nuisance, you person is a tremendous nuisance, you person is a tremendous nuisance, you know, if if they feel like they're know, if if they feel like they're know, if if they feel like they're treated unfairly. So there's no stable treated unfairly. So there's no stable treated unfairly. So there's no stable configuration around that. And if you're configuration around that. And if you're configuration around that. And if you're thinking about the economy um or like thinking about the economy um or like thinking about the economy um or like countries, there's no way to you can't countries, there's no way to you can't countries, there's no way to you can't bluster your way out of it. You can't bluster your way out of it. You can't bluster your way out of it. You can't say we're the strongest. you have to do say we're the strongest. you have to do say we're the strongest. you have to do if as soon as you start even when I'm if as soon as you start even when I'm if as soon as you start even when I'm saying that right like I have to saying that right like I have to saying that right like I have to remember when I have power over people remember when I have power over people remember when I have power over people you tend to be like they must do what I you tend to be like they must do what I you tend to be like they must do what I want because I want them to because I want because I want them to because I want because I want them to because I control this it's just not a stable control this it's just not a stable control this it's just not a stable configuration you can get by for a configuration you can get by for a configuration you can get by for a little bit and then you get tremendous little bit and then you get tremendous little bit and then you get tremendous push back um so I think that having the push back um so I think that having the push back um so I think that having the value of justice um one thing I think value of justice um one thing I think value of justice um one thing I think about is like how do you treat people about is like how do you treat people about is like how do you treat people with respect and fairness all the time with respect and fairness all the time with respect and fairness all the time um in every situation whether you're um in every situation whether you're um in every situation whether you're hiring them or firing them or you're hiring them or firing them or you're hiring them or firing them or you're disagreeing right over what they should disagreeing right over what they should disagreeing right over what they should be doing. So I think that that maybe is be doing. So I think that that maybe is be doing. So I think that that maybe is what's fueling kind of this what's fueling kind of this what's fueling kind of this democratization, right? Like you want to democratization, right? Like you want to democratization, right? Like you want to even people are stable in a place where even people are stable in a place where even people are stable in a place where they feel like they have the opportunity they feel like they have the opportunity they feel like they have the opportunity to get what you've gotten to as long as to get what you've gotten to as long as to get what you've gotten to as long as there's some kind of like fair chance there's some kind of like fair chance there's some kind of like fair chance for that. Um and they're okay with what for that. Um and they're okay with what for that. Um and they're okay with what they've gotten if they feel like, hey, they've gotten if they feel like, hey, they've gotten if they feel like, hey, this is what's available to me at the this is what's available to me at the this is what's available to me at the moment. But it's also just as a side moment. But it's also just as a side moment. But it's also just as a side note, I think this is just kind of like note, I think this is just kind of like note, I think this is just kind of like an internal thing that I've had. Like I an internal thing that I've had. Like I an internal thing that I've had. Like I used to play soccer and even on my team used to play soccer and even on my team used to play soccer and even on my team if I feel like we fouled the other team if I feel like we fouled the other team if I feel like we fouled the other team and we could get away with it, I would and we could get away with it, I would and we could get away with it, I would have like a really weird thing of like have like a really weird thing of like have like a really weird thing of like integrity. This feels off. integrity. This feels off. integrity. This feels off. >> Do you have a sense of where that came >> Do you have a sense of where that came >> Do you have a sense of where that came from? from? from? >> It's some kind of like intuitive knowing >> It's some kind of like intuitive knowing >> It's some kind of like intuitive knowing for myself that it's like I'm a for myself that it's like I'm a for myself that it's like I'm a long-term greedy person, you know, and long-term greedy person, you know, and long-term greedy person, you know, and this is kind of what one of the things this is kind of what one of the things this is kind of what one of the things we talk a lot about at the company is we talk a lot about at the company is we talk a lot about at the company is like how do you be long-term greedy? And like how do you be long-term greedy? And like how do you be long-term greedy? And I think the only way to be long-term I think the only way to be long-term I think the only way to be long-term greedy is to stay in integrity for greedy is to stay in integrity for greedy is to stay in integrity for people to feel like there's justice all people to feel like there's justice all people to feel like there's justice all the way along. And that way you can the way along. And that way you can the way along. And that way you can Yeah. I think it's also just like a Yeah. I think it's also just like a Yeah. I think it's also just like a belief in yourself, right? You don't belief in yourself, right? You don't belief in yourself, right? You don't have to cheat in the like short term to have to cheat in the like short term to have to cheat in the like short term to get something. You're going to win. get something. You're going to win. get something. You're going to win. Maybe one small thing about this is like Maybe one small thing about this is like Maybe one small thing about this is like if you if you if you let's say you're playing a soccer game, let's say you're playing a soccer game, let's say you're playing a soccer game, you feel like you cheated or like this you feel like you cheated or like this you feel like you cheated or like this wasn't fair and then you won. It doesn't wasn't fair and then you won. It doesn't wasn't fair and then you won. It doesn't feel as good. So I I did hear the your feel as good. So I I did hear the your feel as good. So I I did hear the your like interview with Brian Chesky's the like interview with Brian Chesky's the like interview with Brian Chesky's the um like the statement he made around you um like the statement he made around you um like the statement he made around you know the getting to hundred billion know the getting to hundred billion know the getting to hundred billion dollars and um dollars and um dollars and um >> feeling like >> feeling like >> feeling like >> I Yeah. And I I I actually felt like I >> I Yeah. And I I I actually felt like I >> I Yeah. And I I I actually felt like I related in like we're obviously in a related in like we're obviously in a related in like we're obviously in a much you know smaller spot but even much you know smaller spot but even much you know smaller spot but even early on when we raised our series A um early on when we raised our series A um early on when we raised our series A um I remember having that sensation of like I remember having that sensation of like I remember having that sensation of like oh there's no if you're doing this to oh there's no if you're doing this to oh there's no if you're doing this to get agilation or to get uh you know get agilation or to get uh you know get agilation or to get uh you know prestige or to make some money there's prestige or to make some money there's prestige or to make some money there's no end to that. It's kind of like an no end to that. It's kind of like an no end to that. It's kind of like an empty thing that passes. Um you the only empty thing that passes. Um you the only empty thing that passes. Um you the only judge of anything is yourself and your judge of anything is yourself and your judge of anything is yourself and your own kind of self-respect. own kind of self-respect. own kind of self-respect. Um uh and so you have to be doing it so Um uh and so you have to be doing it so Um uh and so you have to be doing it so that you feel like what you've done is that you feel like what you've done is that you feel like what you've done is interesting and worthwhile and you you interesting and worthwhile and you you interesting and worthwhile and you you know when you're an ambitious person know when you're an ambitious person know when you're an ambitious person your judgment is actually way higher your judgment is actually way higher your judgment is actually way higher than anyone else because you know than anyone else because you know than anyone else because you know everything that you're thinking and you everything that you're thinking and you everything that you're thinking and you know everything everything that you've know everything everything that you've know everything everything that you've done. So, I know everything that I'm done. So, I know everything that I'm done. So, I know everything that I'm thinking about or doing and my kind of thinking about or doing and my kind of thinking about or doing and my kind of um standards are higher than anyone um standards are higher than anyone um standards are higher than anyone else. else. else. >> There's this thing I like to do where >> There's this thing I like to do where >> There's this thing I like to do where when I spend some time with somebody, I when I spend some time with somebody, I when I spend some time with somebody, I wait an hour and then I write down notes wait an hour and then I write down notes wait an hour and then I write down notes in my phone cuz I want I like I like in my phone cuz I want I like I like in my phone cuz I want I like I like benefit from the hour of like it it's benefit from the hour of like it it's benefit from the hour of like it it's like a cleansing function or something like a cleansing function or something like a cleansing function or something like whatever lasts in my brain through like whatever lasts in my brain through like whatever lasts in my brain through that hour like I want to write down. that hour like I want to write down. that hour like I want to write down. When we last worked together, this is When we last worked together, this is When we last worked together, this is the one thing I wrote down which was the one thing I wrote down which was the one thing I wrote down which was this notion of optimizing for this notion of optimizing for this notion of optimizing for self-respect over everything else. Yeah. >> Oh, we'll get to truth in a second, but >> Oh, we'll get to truth in a second, but how that optimizes relates back to risk how that optimizes relates back to risk how that optimizes relates back to risk and courage. Like, do you think those and courage. Like, do you think those and courage. Like, do you think those things are related? And and and the things are related? And and and the things are related? And and and the question behind the question is like how question behind the question is like how question behind the question is like how do you think it's possible to help do you think it's possible to help do you think it's possible to help people become more courageous and take people become more courageous and take people become more courageous and take more risk? more risk? more risk? >> I think I think in order to do that, you >> I think I think in order to do that, you >> I think I think in order to do that, you just need to understand your mind and just need to understand your mind and just need to understand your mind and your motivations more and be more honest your motivations more and be more honest your motivations more and be more honest about them. It's very hard to admit to about them. It's very hard to admit to about them. It's very hard to admit to yourself. I think you know why you're yourself. I think you know why you're yourself. I think you know why you're doing something are you doing it even if doing something are you doing it even if doing something are you doing it even if you look at the narratives for companies you look at the narratives for companies you look at the narratives for companies none of them have any relation to the none of them have any relation to the none of them have any relation to the motivation the motivation of the motivation the motivation of the motivation the motivation of the founders and I think probably the honest founders and I think probably the honest founders and I think probably the honest story is like a mixture of things and we story is like a mixture of things and we story is like a mixture of things and we don't talk about that in public right so don't talk about that in public right so don't talk about that in public right so I think if you for me for example it's I think if you for me for example it's I think if you for me for example it's like why am I building a company um and like why am I building a company um and like why am I building a company um and do I think that I will be more liked or do I think that I will be more liked or do I think that I will be more liked or loved if I, you know, do something that loved if I, you know, do something that loved if I, you know, do something that is a success at a worldclass level, is a success at a worldclass level, is a success at a worldclass level, right? And can I get that now? Right? right? And can I get that now? Right? right? And can I get that now? Right? So, I've had friends come up to me that So, I've had friends come up to me that So, I've had friends come up to me that are like, "Hey, I don't care if you are like, "Hey, I don't care if you are like, "Hey, I don't care if you succeed or fail. I love you." And I was succeed or fail. I love you." And I was succeed or fail. I love you." And I was like, "Wow, that's actually helpful. I like, "Wow, that's actually helpful. I like, "Wow, that's actually helpful. I didn't think it would be, but it's like, didn't think it would be, but it's like, didn't think it would be, but it's like, well, I'm that that's feeding kind of well, I'm that that's feeding kind of well, I'm that that's feeding kind of like some part of my desire must be like some part of my desire must be like some part of my desire must be fueled by that, but I can get that right fueled by that, but I can get that right fueled by that, but I can get that right now." And now I can start to take real now." And now I can start to take real now." And now I can start to take real risks where I'm thinking about the risks where I'm thinking about the risks where I'm thinking about the business and not trying to fill this business and not trying to fill this business and not trying to fill this like particular need. like particular need. like particular need. >> Um, you know, VCs have this common trope >> Um, you know, VCs have this common trope >> Um, you know, VCs have this common trope that is, hey, we invest in someone that that is, hey, we invest in someone that that is, hey, we invest in someone that has a chip on their shoulder, right? Or has a chip on their shoulder, right? Or has a chip on their shoulder, right? Or has some kind of lack that they're has some kind of lack that they're has some kind of lack that they're trying to fulfill. Um, and this is trying to fulfill. Um, and this is trying to fulfill. Um, and this is common across like creative work. The common across like creative work. The common across like creative work. The trope is like you're depressed or you're trope is like you're depressed or you're trope is like you're depressed or you're anxious or whatever and you're trying to anxious or whatever and you're trying to anxious or whatever and you're trying to fill that and you're actually afraid to fill that and you're actually afraid to fill that and you're actually afraid to lose that depression or anxiety or lose that depression or anxiety or lose that depression or anxiety or whatever it is because you feel like whatever it is because you feel like whatever it is because you feel like you'll be less productive or like you'll be less productive or like you'll be less productive or like creative. Um, and I had the kind of like creative. Um, and I had the kind of like creative. Um, and I had the kind of like through my journey, I had this moment through my journey, I had this moment through my journey, I had this moment where I was like, you know what, I'm not where I was like, you know what, I'm not where I was like, you know what, I'm not going to create from a place of lack going to create from a place of lack going to create from a place of lack anymore. Um, and I went around uh anymore. Um, and I went around uh anymore. Um, and I went around uh probably pretty annoyingly telling probably pretty annoyingly telling probably pretty annoyingly telling people I'm I have everything I need. I'm people I'm I have everything I need. I'm people I'm I have everything I need. I'm good. good. good. >> Post lack. >> Post lack. >> Post lack. >> Post lack. Yeah. And um it's a great >> Post lack. Yeah. And um it's a great >> Post lack. Yeah. And um it's a great negotiation leverage because there's negotiation leverage because there's negotiation leverage because there's nothing you can give me. I feel great. nothing you can give me. I feel great. nothing you can give me. I feel great. I'm already complete, you know, and from I'm already complete, you know, and from I'm already complete, you know, and from there you can still create. I think there you can still create. I think there you can still create. I think people are misunderstanding people are misunderstanding people are misunderstanding um like tremendously misunderstanding um like tremendously misunderstanding um like tremendously misunderstanding this in in my opinion. It's kind of like this in in my opinion. It's kind of like this in in my opinion. It's kind of like well if we have if we were in a post well if we have if we were in a post well if we have if we were in a post scarcity world no one will do anything. scarcity world no one will do anything. scarcity world no one will do anything. Everybody will just be hanging out. And Everybody will just be hanging out. And Everybody will just be hanging out. And it's like have you been to Burning Man? it's like have you been to Burning Man? it's like have you been to Burning Man? People are still doing stuff you know People are still doing stuff you know People are still doing stuff you know and they have things. I think you can and they have things. I think you can and they have things. I think you can create from a place of wholeness and in create from a place of wholeness and in create from a place of wholeness and in fact you will be less destructive in the fact you will be less destructive in the fact you will be less destructive in the world. Um, so I I think you'll create world. Um, so I I think you'll create world. Um, so I I think you'll create less damage because you're doing it now less damage because you're doing it now less damage because you're doing it now because we keep thinking here like, hey, because we keep thinking here like, hey, because we keep thinking here like, hey, let's think of our customers. What are let's think of our customers. What are let's think of our customers. What are we trying to give them? Stop thinking we trying to give them? Stop thinking we trying to give them? Stop thinking about other in an organization, you about other in an organization, you about other in an organization, you could there are so many other why do could there are so many other why do could there are so many other why do people keep saying customers first. It's people keep saying customers first. It's people keep saying customers first. It's because when you're in a company, things because when you're in a company, things because when you're in a company, things start to happen where it's like this start to happen where it's like this start to happen where it's like this person's thinking about their career or person's thinking about their career or person's thinking about their career or this person wants to please this other this person wants to please this other this person wants to please this other person. They're not thinking about the person. They're not thinking about the person. They're not thinking about the customer. They're just thinking about customer. They're just thinking about customer. They're just thinking about the internal dynamics. The more whole the internal dynamics. The more whole the internal dynamics. The more whole you can be, I think, the more risks you you can be, I think, the more risks you you can be, I think, the more risks you can take and the more courage you will can take and the more courage you will can take and the more courage you will have because you have nothing to lose. have because you have nothing to lose. have because you have nothing to lose. >> It's funny to me that perhaps the most >> It's funny to me that perhaps the most >> It's funny to me that perhaps the most interesting duo in modern business interesting duo in modern business interesting duo in modern business history, Johnny Ivan, Steve Jobs, were history, Johnny Ivan, Steve Jobs, were history, Johnny Ivan, Steve Jobs, were like almost undoubtedly creating from like almost undoubtedly creating from like almost undoubtedly creating from this generative place. Um, I don't know this generative place. Um, I don't know this generative place. Um, I don't know if they'd use the same terminology or if they'd use the same terminology or if they'd use the same terminology or something, but you read it all like it's something, but you read it all like it's something, but you read it all like it's all there. all there. all there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they're the most adored, right? But >> And they're the most adored, right? But >> And they're the most adored, right? But maybe the least emulated. It it demands maybe the least emulated. It it demands maybe the least emulated. It it demands the question um the things that got you the question um the things that got you the question um the things that got you to this sense of wholeness. Yeah. From to this sense of wholeness. Yeah. From to this sense of wholeness. Yeah. From this place of lack. this place of lack. this place of lack. >> Um there's been much strange debate >> Um there's been much strange debate >> Um there's been much strange debate about the role of introspection in in um about the role of introspection in in um about the role of introspection in in um in business and in general. I think in business and in general. I think in business and in general. I think naively I would say like it's naively I would say like it's naively I would say like it's introspection. It's a key tool in the introspection. It's a key tool in the introspection. It's a key tool in the toolkit to get from one to the other. Um toolkit to get from one to the other. Um toolkit to get from one to the other. Um curious what your experience has been or curious what your experience has been or curious what your experience has been or what you would what you would offer what you would what you would offer what you would what you would offer about that phase change. I kind of about that phase change. I kind of about that phase change. I kind of understand actually the the motivation understand actually the the motivation understand actually the the motivation here because one thing I talk a lot here because one thing I talk a lot here because one thing I talk a lot about here and have thought for myself about here and have thought for myself about here and have thought for myself is the amount of work the doing versus is the amount of work the doing versus is the amount of work the doing versus metaanalysis metaanalysis metaanalysis um it can sometimes flip right so you um it can sometimes flip right so you um it can sometimes flip right so you should be like 90% of the time doing and should be like 90% of the time doing and should be like 90% of the time doing and then 10% of the time meta analyzing then 10% of the time meta analyzing then 10% of the time meta analyzing sometimes actually at work we've had sometimes actually at work we've had sometimes actually at work we've had this happen a lot and I talk to the team this happen a lot and I talk to the team this happen a lot and I talk to the team a lot about it where people are like hey a lot about it where people are like hey a lot about it where people are like hey what is going to happen in one year or what is going to happen in one year or what is going to happen in one year or like why are we building this feature like why are we building this feature like why are we building this feature instead of that feature and I'm like is instead of that feature and I'm like is instead of that feature and I'm like is that stopping you from taking the next that stopping you from taking the next that stopping you from taking the next step in your job? If not then you're step in your job? If not then you're step in your job? If not then you're procrastinating. So I think my sense is procrastinating. So I think my sense is procrastinating. So I think my sense is his conversation around that is and also his conversation around that is and also his conversation around that is and also by the way if you're trying to build I by the way if you're trying to build I by the way if you're trying to build I think his example was Walmart right it think his example was Walmart right it think his example was Walmart right it was like if you're trying to build more was like if you're trying to build more was like if you're trying to build more Walmarts yes you should always be Walmarts yes you should always be Walmarts yes you should always be thinking about wake up in the morning thinking about wake up in the morning thinking about wake up in the morning build more Walmart but at some scale build more Walmart but at some scale build more Walmart but at some scale news when Walmart is affecting all of us news when Walmart is affecting all of us news when Walmart is affecting all of us if you don't think about why you're if you don't think about why you're if you don't think about why you're building Walmart you know or what you building Walmart you know or what you building Walmart you know or what you know more Walmarts do to us or to a know more Walmarts do to us or to a know more Walmarts do to us or to a shared environment shared environment shared environment um that responsibility is on you. I I I um that responsibility is on you. I I I um that responsibility is on you. I I I think that the more you make and the think that the more you make and the think that the more you make and the more successful you become, it is part more successful you become, it is part more successful you become, it is part of your responsibility back to like all of your responsibility back to like all of your responsibility back to like all of us to think about what you're doing, of us to think about what you're doing, of us to think about what you're doing, right? That you're our representative right? That you're our representative right? That you're our representative now. Um you're not a completely now. Um you're not a completely now. Um you're not a completely independent actor. Uh and in fact, we independent actor. Uh and in fact, we independent actor. Uh and in fact, we have the power to pull some of that have the power to pull some of that have the power to pull some of that stuff back from you. So is there stuff back from you. So is there stuff back from you. So is there anything that you did in particular anything that you did in particular anything that you did in particular right right right >> as just just about your specific story >> as just just about your specific story >> as just just about your specific story going from kind of black to wholeness or going from kind of black to wholeness or going from kind of black to wholeness or >> right for me I think the introspection >> right for me I think the introspection >> right for me I think the introspection is it it was um a journey to kind of is it it was um a journey to kind of is it it was um a journey to kind of understand like why ambition right so I understand like why ambition right so I understand like why ambition right so I was suspicious of my own ambition I was was suspicious of my own ambition I was was suspicious of my own ambition I was like what what am I trying to get out of like what what am I trying to get out of like what what am I trying to get out of this um and actually I think part of why this um and actually I think part of why this um and actually I think part of why the company took some time to take off the company took some time to take off the company took some time to take off was because I was grappling with that was because I was grappling with that was because I was grappling with that and that led me to kind investigate like and that led me to kind investigate like and that led me to kind investigate like which parts of me are trying to kind of which parts of me are trying to kind of which parts of me are trying to kind of be expressed through this. And that was be expressed through this. And that was be expressed through this. And that was just my own personal interest. I just just my own personal interest. I just just my own personal interest. I just found that I couldn't just do something found that I couldn't just do something found that I couldn't just do something without understanding my motivation for without understanding my motivation for without understanding my motivation for it because I was um looking at people it because I was um looking at people it because I was um looking at people who are further ahead in my field, who are further ahead in my field, who are further ahead in my field, right? Like if you're a great business right? Like if you're a great business right? Like if you're a great business person or you built a great company and person or you built a great company and person or you built a great company and I was like, do I want that? What I was like, do I want that? What I was like, do I want that? What actually I I think it's also coming from actually I I think it's also coming from actually I I think it's also coming from like valuing my time and myself really I like valuing my time and myself really I like valuing my time and myself really I I was having this kind of experience I was having this kind of experience I was having this kind of experience where I'm like what if I took myself where I'm like what if I took myself where I'm like what if I took myself really seriously. You could take really seriously. You could take really seriously. You could take yourself lightly and just be like well yourself lightly and just be like well yourself lightly and just be like well these are just thoughts. I want to do these are just thoughts. I want to do these are just thoughts. I want to do something big so do other people or take something big so do other people or take something big so do other people or take it really seriously and be like what why it really seriously and be like what why it really seriously and be like what why do I want to do that? What would I do I want to do that? What would I do I want to do that? What would I actually offer the world if I was able actually offer the world if I was able actually offer the world if I was able to do that? Um and then thinking like to do that? Um and then thinking like to do that? Um and then thinking like hey you can succeed and create a lot of hey you can succeed and create a lot of hey you can succeed and create a lot of damage in the world. Um and back to the damage in the world. Um and back to the damage in the world. Um and back to the kind of like I was I I think a lot about kind of like I was I I think a lot about kind of like I was I I think a lot about death right and like you know if you death right and like you know if you death right and like you know if you on your deathbed like what are you on your deathbed like what are you on your deathbed like what are you thinking what are how does it feel in thinking what are how does it feel in thinking what are how does it feel in that moment if you had a moment to that moment if you had a moment to that moment if you had a moment to reflect and like who get how do you reflect and like who get how do you reflect and like who get how do you judge yourself and for me I didn't judge yourself and for me I didn't judge yourself and for me I didn't there's like the experience of every day there's like the experience of every day there's like the experience of every day and living a life that you feel is and living a life that you feel is and living a life that you feel is worthwhile on a day-to-day basis and worthwhile on a day-to-day basis and worthwhile on a day-to-day basis and there's also like how did you impact the there's also like how did you impact the there's also like how did you impact the world if you did impact it and I wanted world if you did impact it and I wanted world if you did impact it and I wanted to make sure that I felt like I really to make sure that I felt like I really to make sure that I felt like I really grappled with that correctly and I grappled with that correctly and I grappled with that correctly and I didn't just try to accumulate resources. didn't just try to accumulate resources. didn't just try to accumulate resources. >> Um, and just be like, hey, I did >> Um, and just be like, hey, I did >> Um, and just be like, hey, I did something big. I accumulated some something big. I accumulated some something big. I accumulated some resources. It's funny, it does go back resources. It's funny, it does go back resources. It's funny, it does go back to this like justice principle. It's to this like justice principle. It's to this like justice principle. It's like if you're going to do something like if you're going to do something like if you're going to do something big, you need to kind of think about the big, you need to kind of think about the big, you need to kind of think about the consequences of you taking that role consequences of you taking that role consequences of you taking that role because it's just a role. because it's just a role. because it's just a role. >> It's a really cool thought exercise to >> It's a really cool thought exercise to >> It's a really cool thought exercise to say, okay, play out the thing I'm doing say, okay, play out the thing I'm doing say, okay, play out the thing I'm doing to its natural extreme. Do I want that to its natural extreme. Do I want that to its natural extreme. Do I want that state? state? state? >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> Probably no one does that. Do you >> Probably no one does that. Do you >> Probably no one does that. Do you respect like you know I had one time respect like you know I had one time respect like you know I had one time where I I remember when I was much where I I remember when I was much where I I remember when I was much younger I was like oh like I want to younger I was like oh like I want to younger I was like oh like I want to make a lot of money and then I'll be a make a lot of money and then I'll be a make a lot of money and then I'll be a philanthropist and I'm like is that philanthropist and I'm like is that philanthropist and I'm like is that actually useful there are a lot of actually useful there are a lot of actually useful there are a lot of philanthropists is it working or is it philanthropists is it working or is it philanthropists is it working or is it just that I want the control to pick the just that I want the control to pick the just that I want the control to pick the causes that I want. causes that I want. causes that I want. >> Um and on this like uh maybe one more >> Um and on this like uh maybe one more >> Um and on this like uh maybe one more thing on the death thing that I think is thing on the death thing that I think is thing on the death thing that I think is kind of interesting was like my own kind of interesting was like my own kind of interesting was like my own insight that I had. I went on this 10day insight that I had. I went on this 10day insight that I had. I went on this 10day silent retreat um a while back and it I silent retreat um a while back and it I silent retreat um a while back and it I thought I was going to just go think you thought I was going to just go think you thought I was going to just go think you know it was not that it was kind of like know it was not that it was kind of like know it was not that it was kind of like a spiritual experience and it it wasn't a spiritual experience and it it wasn't a spiritual experience and it it wasn't um it was called herodia not like a vapa um it was called herodia not like a vapa um it was called herodia not like a vapa and so hi herodas their approach there and so hi herodas their approach there and so hi herodas their approach there is like a non-dual approach to is like a non-dual approach to is like a non-dual approach to meditation where typically you kind of meditation where typically you kind of meditation where typically you kind of like meditate on your breath or some like meditate on your breath or some like meditate on your breath or some object whereas in non-dual traditions object whereas in non-dual traditions object whereas in non-dual traditions it's called the direct path and in the it's called the direct path and in the it's called the direct path and in the direct path you meditate on the space direct path you meditate on the space direct path you meditate on the space between the breaths or you you ask the between the breaths or you you ask the between the breaths or you you ask the question who am I a very frustrating question who am I a very frustrating question who am I a very frustrating question I would say I would not question I would say I would not question I would say I would not recommend it but anyway I'm doing this recommend it but anyway I'm doing this recommend it but anyway I'm doing this thing on the fifth day I have like this thing on the fifth day I have like this thing on the fifth day I have like this big insight where I'm like I I figured big insight where I'm like I I figured big insight where I'm like I I figured it out I got it so then on the seventh it out I got it so then on the seventh it out I got it so then on the seventh day I'm like okay well what now you know day I'm like okay well what now you know day I'm like okay well what now you know I uh I start imagining going back and I uh I start imagining going back and I uh I start imagining going back and telling my friends about like this telling my friends about like this telling my friends about like this insight but I'm like oh I'm not here I'm insight but I'm like oh I'm not here I'm insight but I'm like oh I'm not here I'm just imagining the future I'm I kept just imagining the future I'm I kept just imagining the future I'm I kept kind of wanting to go towards the end kind of wanting to go towards the end kind of wanting to go towards the end and then I had this like really big and then I had this like really big and then I had this like really big flash of insight that I try to remember, flash of insight that I try to remember, flash of insight that I try to remember, but it's that whenever you're picturing but it's that whenever you're picturing but it's that whenever you're picturing the future or anticipating the future, the future or anticipating the future, the future or anticipating the future, you're actually it's kind of like you're actually it's kind of like you're actually it's kind of like Freud's death drive, right? You're Freud's death drive, right? You're Freud's death drive, right? You're actually just the the only thing that actually just the the only thing that actually just the the only thing that happens in the future is you die, you happens in the future is you die, you happens in the future is you die, you know, like the far future, whatever it know, like the far future, whatever it know, like the far future, whatever it is. And so you're accelerating that. Um, is. And so you're accelerating that. Um, is. And so you're accelerating that. Um, and as soon as I had that thought, it's and as soon as I had that thought, it's and as soon as I had that thought, it's kind of the death drive, you know, kind of the death drive, you know, kind of the death drive, you know, actually thinking about the future is actually thinking about the future is actually thinking about the future is the death drive. And so I like the death drive. And so I like the death drive. And so I like immediately kind of felt back in my own immediately kind of felt back in my own immediately kind of felt back in my own body in the moment and felt the boredom body in the moment and felt the boredom body in the moment and felt the boredom of where I was. And I was like, "Wow, of where I was. And I was like, "Wow, of where I was. And I was like, "Wow, this is such delicious boredom. I'm so I this is such delicious boredom. I'm so I this is such delicious boredom. I'm so I I finally got that insight, which is I'm I finally got that insight, which is I'm I finally got that insight, which is I'm so grateful to be bored right now so grateful to be bored right now so grateful to be bored right now because it's so amazing." I also because it's so amazing." I also because it's so amazing." I also realized that I have this like scarcity realized that I have this like scarcity realized that I have this like scarcity like food scarcity. I was thinking like food scarcity. I was thinking like food scarcity. I was thinking constantly about food and where am I constantly about food and where am I constantly about food and where am I going to eat, you know? And then I just going to eat, you know? And then I just going to eat, you know? And then I just had this one pee and it exploded in my had this one pee and it exploded in my had this one pee and it exploded in my head. I was like, "This is too much. I head. I was like, "This is too much. I head. I was like, "This is too much. I can't eat anymore." can't eat anymore." can't eat anymore." But I realized that I have an But I realized that I have an But I realized that I have an accumulation tendency where I'm like, accumulation tendency where I'm like, accumulation tendency where I'm like, it's with food. Like, where's the food it's with food. Like, where's the food it's with food. Like, where's the food going to come from? And in the company, going to come from? And in the company, going to come from? And in the company, I noticed I'm like, where's the next, I noticed I'm like, where's the next, I noticed I'm like, where's the next, you know, ARR going to come from? And you know, ARR going to come from? And you know, ARR going to come from? And and I now I'm aware of that and I'm like and I now I'm aware of that and I'm like and I now I'm aware of that and I'm like aware of when I have enough. And then I aware of when I have enough. And then I aware of when I have enough. And then I can take more risk. I don't need to can take more risk. I don't need to can take more risk. I don't need to accumulate something that's way beyond accumulate something that's way beyond accumulate something that's way beyond actually what we need. What was the day actually what we need. What was the day actually what we need. What was the day five insight or was that the insight five insight or was that the insight five insight or was that the insight itself? itself? itself? >> No, the day five insight is like a >> No, the day five insight is like a >> No, the day five insight is like a momentary experience of like this of momentary experience of like this of momentary experience of like this of like understanding what matters or like understanding what matters or like understanding what matters or something like that because I felt like something like that because I felt like something like that because I felt like oh I'm I'm connected oh I'm I'm connected oh I'm I'm connected to all things. Hey, I am a component or to all things. Hey, I am a component or to all things. Hey, I am a component or like a part of this whole thing and I'm like a part of this whole thing and I'm like a part of this whole thing and I'm connected to all things and they all connected to all things and they all connected to all things and they all matter. I had kind of this thought of matter. I had kind of this thought of matter. I had kind of this thought of like one, I'm no better than and no like one, I'm no better than and no like one, I'm no better than and no worse than anyone else. Uh but also it worse than anyone else. Uh but also it worse than anyone else. Uh but also it made me feel like this real empathy when made me feel like this real empathy when made me feel like this real empathy when you know I see someone who's suffering you know I see someone who's suffering you know I see someone who's suffering they're also me and not not like not I they're also me and not not like not I they're also me and not not like not I empathize with them as if I was them. empathize with them as if I was them. empathize with them as if I was them. I'm like this is actually me. I'm like this is actually me. I'm like this is actually me. >> Um and that that's kind of like a really >> Um and that that's kind of like a really >> Um and that that's kind of like a really out there thought or like belief. out there thought or like belief. out there thought or like belief. >> Strange thing is it's actually not at >> Strange thing is it's actually not at >> Strange thing is it's actually not at all like it's like the longest lasting all like it's like the longest lasting all like it's like the longest lasting set of beliefs right set of beliefs right set of beliefs right >> in the deepest richest philosophical >> in the deepest richest philosophical >> in the deepest richest philosophical traditions. What was crazy wasn't the traditions. What was crazy wasn't the traditions. What was crazy wasn't the idea. It was the idea. It was the idea. It was the >> experience >> experience >> experience >> experience of really feeling that and >> experience of really feeling that and >> experience of really feeling that and then knowing that like you know when I then knowing that like you know when I then knowing that like you know when I hear something in Buddhism that's just hear something in Buddhism that's just hear something in Buddhism that's just like freedom of all beings or knowing like freedom of all beings or knowing like freedom of all beings or knowing that um you know the suffering of one that um you know the suffering of one that um you know the suffering of one person is the suffering of everyone. So person is the suffering of everyone. So person is the suffering of everyone. So back to the justice thing, it's like back to the justice thing, it's like back to the justice thing, it's like well I can't solve everybody's problems well I can't solve everybody's problems well I can't solve everybody's problems and I I and and in fact that would be and I I and and in fact that would be and I I and and in fact that would be hurting me to try to help someone when I hurting me to try to help someone when I hurting me to try to help someone when I don't have capacity. but to really know don't have capacity. but to really know don't have capacity. but to really know like every single person they're like every single person they're like every single person they're carrying it for me rather than they carrying it for me rather than they carrying it for me rather than they up or they screwed up and I'm up or they screwed up and I'm up or they screwed up and I'm better because I worked hard and did x y better because I worked hard and did x y better because I worked hard and did x y and z. and z. and z. >> So bring it back to our statutes is that >> So bring it back to our statutes is that >> So bring it back to our statutes is that then truth like is the is the day five then truth like is the is the day five then truth like is the is the day five insight insight insight >> is that just truth? >> is that just truth? >> is that just truth? >> Yeah. So I think that yeah if we go back >> Yeah. So I think that yeah if we go back >> Yeah. So I think that yeah if we go back to kind of capital T truth it's like to kind of capital T truth it's like to kind of capital T truth it's like really understanding that and then I really understanding that and then I really understanding that and then I understand why in philosophical understand why in philosophical understand why in philosophical traditions or even in religions they're traditions or even in religions they're traditions or even in religions they're like remembrance right because it's like like remembrance right because it's like like remembrance right because it's like I can I can get that momentary I can I can get that momentary I can I can get that momentary understanding but then remembering it in understanding but then remembering it in understanding but then remembering it in the moment when I'm making a decision the moment when I'm making a decision the moment when I'm making a decision about my business or about like my about my business or about like my about my business or about like my personal life is very tricky. Um, but I personal life is very tricky. Um, but I personal life is very tricky. Um, but I do think that that is what's necessary do think that that is what's necessary do think that that is what's necessary for us to get to the next stage of like for us to get to the next stage of like for us to get to the next stage of like what's interesting in the world. There's what's interesting in the world. There's what's interesting in the world. There's so many mysteries, you know, like so many mysteries, you know, like so many mysteries, you know, like scientific mysteries. There's just like scientific mysteries. There's just like scientific mysteries. There's just like so many interesting things. Um, and I so many interesting things. Um, and I so many interesting things. Um, and I feel probably like many other people feel probably like many other people feel probably like many other people that we're squabbling in circular ways that we're squabbling in circular ways that we're squabbling in circular ways around the same nonsense. around the same nonsense. around the same nonsense. >> Uh, truly actually it like my real anger >> Uh, truly actually it like my real anger >> Uh, truly actually it like my real anger is like what are we doing? We're wasting is like what are we doing? We're wasting is like what are we doing? We're wasting our time. Um, but we're wasting our like our time. Um, but we're wasting our like our time. Um, but we're wasting our like human potential. We're wasting our time. human potential. We're wasting our time. human potential. We're wasting our time. >> If I hear and digest all of that and >> If I hear and digest all of that and >> If I hear and digest all of that and then I imagine, okay, this guy is now then I imagine, okay, this guy is now then I imagine, okay, this guy is now running a software startup, running a software startup, running a software startup, >> right? [laughter] >> right? [laughter] >> right? [laughter] >> I I might imagine that that startup is >> I I might imagine that that startup is >> I I might imagine that that startup is run in some unusual ways, run in some unusual ways, run in some unusual ways, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so I'm curious what those are and >> And so I'm curious what those are and >> And so I'm curious what those are and and and why you arrived at unusual ways and and why you arrived at unusual ways and and why you arrived at unusual ways of running the business. of running the business. of running the business. >> It's back to like the meta reflection >> It's back to like the meta reflection >> It's back to like the meta reflection point is yes, there are some unusual point is yes, there are some unusual point is yes, there are some unusual ways in which we run the business. I ways in which we run the business. I ways in which we run the business. I think it's important to be careful of think it's important to be careful of think it's important to be careful of how much you kind of push ideas onto how much you kind of push ideas onto how much you kind of push ideas onto other people or like project onto them other people or like project onto them other people or like project onto them kind of like your beliefs and also to to kind of like your beliefs and also to to kind of like your beliefs and also to to remember what context you're working on. remember what context you're working on. remember what context you're working on. It's almost like telling a story, right? It's almost like telling a story, right? It's almost like telling a story, right? Like if you're if this is the normal way Like if you're if this is the normal way Like if you're if this is the normal way to run a business and then you think to run a business and then you think to run a business and then you think that it's this kind of like completely that it's this kind of like completely that it's this kind of like completely bizarro way over here, you also need to bizarro way over here, you also need to bizarro way over here, you also need to take the steps to like tell the story. take the steps to like tell the story. take the steps to like tell the story. And I think it's the same in like And I think it's the same in like And I think it's the same in like product development, right? I can't just product development, right? I can't just product development, right? I can't just give you a product that you have no give you a product that you have no give you a product that you have no context for. You don't even understand context for. You don't even understand context for. You don't even understand how to interact with it. Um, so I think how to interact with it. Um, so I think how to interact with it. Um, so I think it's like, hey, these are my personal it's like, hey, these are my personal it's like, hey, these are my personal beliefs that are and my kind of like beliefs that are and my kind of like beliefs that are and my kind of like interests that are underlying some of interests that are underlying some of interests that are underlying some of the normal activities that we do and the normal activities that we do and the normal activities that we do and then there's adjustments that we make. then there's adjustments that we make. then there's adjustments that we make. I'd say the first and most important way I'd say the first and most important way I'd say the first and most important way is that it's a felt experience right in is that it's a felt experience right in is that it's a felt experience right in the company um of how we treat people the company um of how we treat people the company um of how we treat people and how we think about uh like their and how we think about uh like their and how we think about uh like their personal development. But there there personal development. But there there personal development. But there there are like concrete ways in which it shows are like concrete ways in which it shows are like concrete ways in which it shows up. One way is that we overinvest in up. One way is that we overinvest in up. One way is that we overinvest in things that people typically underinvest things that people typically underinvest things that people typically underinvest in. So what does that mean? Like we over in. So what does that mean? Like we over in. So what does that mean? Like we over we've overinvested in recruiting, in we've overinvested in recruiting, in we've overinvested in recruiting, in brand, in content, in community brand, in content, in community brand, in content, in community building. We've hired people who are building. We've hired people who are building. We've hired people who are very overqualified, you know, um, in very overqualified, you know, um, in very overqualified, you know, um, in some of these roles who are doing it for some of these roles who are doing it for some of these roles who are doing it for the first time and we've paid them as if the first time and we've paid them as if the first time and we've paid them as if they were, for example, we just actually they were, for example, we just actually they were, for example, we just actually published an article about this with one published an article about this with one published an article about this with one person who was an early employee, Mishi. person who was an early employee, Mishi. person who was an early employee, Mishi. And um, she took a content role. She And um, she took a content role. She And um, she took a content role. She would have never taken a content role, would have never taken a content role, would have never taken a content role, right? Um, it's typically kind of not right? Um, it's typically kind of not right? Um, it's typically kind of not the most highly paid thing in a company the most highly paid thing in a company the most highly paid thing in a company where it's like you're it's extra. And where it's like you're it's extra. And where it's like you're it's extra. And we compensated her like a PM and we're we compensated her like a PM and we're we compensated her like a PM and we're like, go do it. So we take those kinds like, go do it. So we take those kinds like, go do it. So we take those kinds of risks and then we stick with it. I of risks and then we stick with it. I of risks and then we stick with it. I think another thing by the way with think another thing by the way with think another thing by the way with risks is when when you couple risks and risks is when when you couple risks and risks is when when you couple risks and courage, the next part is commitment. courage, the next part is commitment. courage, the next part is commitment. You actually need to kind of follow You actually need to kind of follow You actually need to kind of follow through to see what actually ends up through to see what actually ends up through to see what actually ends up happening. You can't just quit in the happening. You can't just quit in the happening. You can't just quit in the beginning. We take that seriously and if beginning. We take that seriously and if beginning. We take that seriously and if we see some somebody is really skilled we see some somebody is really skilled we see some somebody is really skilled or has some star potential, we stay with or has some star potential, we stay with or has some star potential, we stay with it for way longer than most. You know, it for way longer than most. You know, it for way longer than most. You know, everybody talks about hiring fast and everybody talks about hiring fast and everybody talks about hiring fast and firing fast. We've had people who nine firing fast. We've had people who nine firing fast. We've had people who nine months in were floundering months in were floundering months in were floundering um and we're like this person is um and we're like this person is um and we're like this person is excellent. I know they are, but what's excellent. I know they are, but what's excellent. I know they are, but what's going on here? Is it the role? Is it the going on here? Is it the role? Is it the going on here? Is it the role? Is it the context? Right? Is it our decision-m context? Right? Is it our decision-m context? Right? Is it our decision-m that's limiting them? And eventually, I that's limiting them? And eventually, I that's limiting them? And eventually, I would say we we find an amazing spot for would say we we find an amazing spot for would say we we find an amazing spot for that person and they become a superstar that person and they become a superstar that person and they become a superstar 50% of the time. you know, 50 the other 50% of the time. you know, 50 the other 50% of the time. you know, 50 the other 50% of the time, this person might be 50% of the time, this person might be 50% of the time, this person might be really special, but we just can't create really special, but we just can't create really special, but we just can't create the conditions for them or they're too the conditions for them or they're too the conditions for them or they're too far away. Like, one thing that I've far away. Like, one thing that I've far away. Like, one thing that I've talked to my co-founder, Verunat, is talked to my co-founder, Verunat, is talked to my co-founder, Verunat, is like, "We're never pissed off when like, "We're never pissed off when like, "We're never pissed off when someone doesn't work out." We're like, someone doesn't work out." We're like, someone doesn't work out." We're like, "Hey, you're just we're here and you're "Hey, you're just we're here and you're "Hey, you're just we're here and you're here. Maybe along the journey one day here. Maybe along the journey one day here. Maybe along the journey one day you'll get there, but you're not getting you'll get there, but you're not getting you'll get there, but you're not getting there fast enough. You you don't have there fast enough. You you don't have there fast enough. You you don't have what we need at this moment." Um, so I what we need at this moment." Um, so I what we need at this moment." Um, so I don't even have a opinion on whether don't even have a opinion on whether don't even have a opinion on whether you're good or bad. Like people were you're good or bad. Like people were you're good or bad. Like people were like, "This person was good. This person like, "This person was good. This person like, "This person was good. This person was bad." that were you good in the was bad." that were you good in the was bad." that were you good in the moment that we needed you to be? Uh, and moment that we needed you to be? Uh, and moment that we needed you to be? Uh, and actually you might also be super actually you might also be super actually you might also be super skilled, but you just didn't perform skilled, but you just didn't perform skilled, but you just didn't perform here. I've had people who are here. I've had people who are here. I've had people who are incredible. I know they're incredible incredible. I know they're incredible incredible. I know they're incredible and they couldn't perform here for a and they couldn't perform here for a and they couldn't perform here for a variety of reasons and they've gone to variety of reasons and they've gone to variety of reasons and they've gone to other places and done a really good job. other places and done a really good job. other places and done a really good job. So, I think it's important to kind of So, I think it's important to kind of So, I think it's important to kind of like like like be nuanced. But then, you know, there be nuanced. But then, you know, there be nuanced. But then, you know, there are some other things where I think some are some other things where I think some are some other things where I think some of the things that people have covered of the things that people have covered of the things that people have covered about us in the past is like, you know, about us in the past is like, you know, about us in the past is like, you know, I like clowning. For example, I I like clowning. For example, I I like clowning. For example, I discovered clowning. discovered clowning. discovered clowning. >> What What's clowning >> What What's clowning >> What What's clowning >> exactly? I when just the word clowning I >> exactly? I when just the word clowning I >> exactly? I when just the word clowning I was like what is this? I think of it as was like what is this? I think of it as was like what is this? I think of it as like edgy improv. Um there's kind of like edgy improv. Um there's kind of like edgy improv. Um there's kind of like four types of clowning. Um uh so like four types of clowning. Um uh so like four types of clowning. Um uh so there's kind of like physical clowning there's kind of like physical clowning there's kind of like physical clowning which is the one you would imagine when which is the one you would imagine when which is the one you would imagine when you think of clowning. There is uh u you think of clowning. There is uh u you think of clowning. There is uh u like emotional range. So let me make you like emotional range. So let me make you like emotional range. So let me make you happy then make you sad then make you happy then make you sad then make you happy then make you sad then make you happy. So you can feel the full kind of happy. So you can feel the full kind of happy. So you can feel the full kind of like range. There's the jester which is like range. There's the jester which is like range. There's the jester which is like telling truth to power. Um, and like telling truth to power. Um, and like telling truth to power. Um, and then there's the trickster which I think then there's the trickster which I think then there's the trickster which I think is pretty interesting which is how do I is pretty interesting which is how do I is pretty interesting which is how do I tell you like spiritual truths through tell you like spiritual truths through tell you like spiritual truths through kind of jokes like you realize hey kind of jokes like you realize hey kind of jokes like you realize hey everything does change you know that's everything does change you know that's everything does change you know that's like a truth about the world but I get like a truth about the world but I get like a truth about the world but I get you to experience that we take kind of you to experience that we take kind of you to experience that we take kind of like our things like that or like we are like our things like that or like we are like our things like that or like we are really into magicians at clay um and we really into magicians at clay um and we really into magicians at clay um and we incorporate it into kind of like uh our incorporate it into kind of like uh our incorporate it into kind of like uh our events or things that we do and we take events or things that we do and we take events or things that we do and we take risks like our our brand takes a lot of risks like our our brand takes a lot of risks like our our brand takes a lot of risks way more risks than I think risks way more risks than I think risks way more risks than I think general B2B brands and it it that's why general B2B brands and it it that's why general B2B brands and it it that's why people love the brand and the company. people love the brand and the company. people love the brand and the company. It's authentic to us but it's also um I It's authentic to us but it's also um I It's authentic to us but it's also um I think honest. We're not hedging. I think think honest. We're not hedging. I think think honest. We're not hedging. I think a lot of times people are authentic but a lot of times people are authentic but a lot of times people are authentic but hedging. So they're not really saying hedging. So they're not really saying hedging. So they're not really saying what they want to say because they're what they want to say because they're what they want to say because they're afraid of the consequences. What have afraid of the consequences. What have afraid of the consequences. What have you learned from magicians? I actually you learned from magicians? I actually you learned from magicians? I actually think the trickster thing is the thing think the trickster thing is the thing think the trickster thing is the thing that's been a common thread between that's been a common thread between that's been a common thread between this, but I there's this place called 69 this, but I there's this place called 69 this, but I there's this place called 69 Atlantic. And the Atlantic. And the Atlantic. And the thing that I remember from the these thing that I remember from the these thing that I remember from the these really like incredible magicians is it's really like incredible magicians is it's really like incredible magicians is it's not just like a slate of hand things. not just like a slate of hand things. not just like a slate of hand things. There's a storytelling component. And I There's a storytelling component. And I There's a storytelling component. And I think a lot of them, think a lot of them, think a lot of them, it's kind of wild, but like a lot of it's kind of wild, but like a lot of it's kind of wild, but like a lot of them are telling a story of like a deep them are telling a story of like a deep them are telling a story of like a deep understanding of like how your mind understanding of like how your mind understanding of like how your mind works or like how the world works where works or like how the world works where works or like how the world works where they're like, "Hey, I'm showing you this they're like, "Hey, I'm showing you this they're like, "Hey, I'm showing you this thing." And really what they're trying thing." And really what they're trying thing." And really what they're trying to do is to spark curiosity. And to do is to spark curiosity. And to do is to spark curiosity. And actually, we're going to do something actually, we're going to do something actually, we're going to do something about this at Clay. Um, we're calling it about this at Clay. Um, we're calling it about this at Clay. Um, we're calling it like re-enchanting the world, right? like re-enchanting the world, right? like re-enchanting the world, right? Like in a world where there's AI, right? Like in a world where there's AI, right? Like in a world where there's AI, right? It's literally magic in some form, It's literally magic in some form, It's literally magic in some form, right? And to remember that like there's right? And to remember that like there's right? And to remember that like there's a lot of this is magic, right? Like a a lot of this is magic, right? Like a a lot of this is magic, right? Like a lot of these things that we're sitting lot of these things that we're sitting lot of these things that we're sitting in front of are still magic. It's pretty in front of are still magic. It's pretty in front of are still magic. It's pretty wild. And to kind of like re-enchant the wild. And to kind of like re-enchant the wild. And to kind of like re-enchant the world again and not make it like this world again and not make it like this world again and not make it like this boring place where you think you boring place where you think you boring place where you think you understand how it works cuz you really understand how it works cuz you really understand how it works cuz you really don't. Um, and so I think they're doing don't. Um, and so I think they're doing don't. Um, and so I think they're doing like simple things to reignite that like simple things to reignite that like simple things to reignite that feeling of like wonder. Um, and I think feeling of like wonder. Um, and I think feeling of like wonder. Um, and I think if you take that feeling of wonder if you take that feeling of wonder if you take that feeling of wonder actually in your everyday actually in your everyday actually in your everyday um, life, you're you're you're a more um, life, you're you're you're a more um, life, you're you're you're a more kind of like friendly person cuz you're kind of like friendly person cuz you're kind of like friendly person cuz you're you're not like, "Oh, I understand how you're not like, "Oh, I understand how you're not like, "Oh, I understand how this person works or I understand how this person works or I understand how this person works or I understand how this is." You're like more curious. Um, this is." You're like more curious. Um, this is." You're like more curious. Um, it makes you more curious about our it makes you more curious about our it makes you more curious about our customers. It makes us interact in a customers. It makes us interact in a customers. It makes us interact in a more pleasant way cuz we're like, "Oh, more pleasant way cuz we're like, "Oh, more pleasant way cuz we're like, "Oh, there's stuff to learn here." So, I there's stuff to learn here." So, I there's stuff to learn here." So, I think what I've been actually getting think what I've been actually getting think what I've been actually getting from this like magic stuff is been like from this like magic stuff is been like from this like magic stuff is been like remembering what it feels like to be remembering what it feels like to be remembering what it feels like to be like, I have no idea how this is working like, I have no idea how this is working like, I have no idea how this is working and I can't even begin to comprehend how and I can't even begin to comprehend how and I can't even begin to comprehend how to think about it. I know that it's a to think about it. I know that it's a to think about it. I know that it's a trick, but I can't figure it out. trick, but I can't figure it out. trick, but I can't figure it out. >> For whatever reason, this makes me >> For whatever reason, this makes me >> For whatever reason, this makes me wonder kind of the same question about wonder kind of the same question about wonder kind of the same question about music, like the role that music plays in music, like the role that music plays in music, like the role that music plays in and has played in your life and has played in your life and has played in your life >> and what you've learned from your many >> and what you've learned from your many >> and what you've learned from your many many experiences with music. many experiences with music. many experiences with music. >> One of the key things I think with music >> One of the key things I think with music >> One of the key things I think with music versus other kind of things is time, versus other kind of things is time, versus other kind of things is time, right? Like you can't listen to a song right? Like you can't listen to a song right? Like you can't listen to a song without time. Time is actually a core without time. Time is actually a core without time. Time is actually a core component and silence is a core component and silence is a core component and silence is a core component like the spaces between component like the spaces between component like the spaces between things. So it's a good reminder that things. So it's a good reminder that things. So it's a good reminder that those are like fundamental things that those are like fundamental things that those are like fundamental things that you have to work with. It's like very you have to work with. It's like very you have to work with. It's like very zen you know it's like where the thing zen you know it's like where the thing zen you know it's like where the thing isn't you know where the room isn't is isn't you know where the room isn't is isn't you know where the room isn't is where we are right if this room was full where we are right if this room was full where we are right if this room was full of things we couldn't sit in here and we of things we couldn't sit in here and we of things we couldn't sit in here and we only think about making things. We don't only think about making things. We don't only think about making things. We don't think about removing things and we don't think about removing things and we don't think about removing things and we don't think about things unfolding. Right? think about things unfolding. Right? think about things unfolding. Right? Like I think video is also like that but Like I think video is also like that but Like I think video is also like that but a painting isn't right. It's just you a painting isn't right. It's just you a painting isn't right. It's just you can see it all at once. Um, so I think can see it all at once. Um, so I think can see it all at once. Um, so I think about like narrative, like how are you about like narrative, like how are you about like narrative, like how are you telling the story? How are you bringing telling the story? How are you bringing telling the story? How are you bringing people along with you on the journey? people along with you on the journey? people along with you on the journey? Um, you can't tell everyone everything Um, you can't tell everyone everything Um, you can't tell everyone everything all at once. It's overwhelming because all at once. It's overwhelming because all at once. It's overwhelming because you've you've had time to process. They you've you've had time to process. They you've you've had time to process. They haven't. Um, but the this piece that I haven't. Um, but the this piece that I haven't. Um, but the this piece that I was reading, it was talking about was reading, it was talking about was reading, it was talking about endings. So, we always think about endings. So, we always think about endings. So, we always think about beginnings, but we don't really think beginnings, but we don't really think beginnings, but we don't really think about endings. When you're starting a about endings. When you're starting a about endings. When you're starting a company, you're not like, well, what company, you're not like, well, what company, you're not like, well, what about all the people that I'm going to about all the people that I'm going to about all the people that I'm going to fire? And so many crazy things genuinely fire? And so many crazy things genuinely fire? And so many crazy things genuinely happen. As soon as you have a large happen. As soon as you have a large happen. As soon as you have a large number of people, all kinds of people number of people, all kinds of people number of people, all kinds of people get sick, people people's par, you know, get sick, people people's par, you know, get sick, people people's par, you know, just like you're dealing with a just like you're dealing with a just like you're dealing with a microcosm of humanity. You're running microcosm of humanity. You're running microcosm of humanity. You're running like a mini society. Um, and so it was like a mini society. Um, and so it was like a mini society. Um, and so it was like, hey, we can look to music to think like, hey, we can look to music to think like, hey, we can look to music to think about the different forms of endings and about the different forms of endings and about the different forms of endings and learn from that. So some songs end, you learn from that. So some songs end, you learn from that. So some songs end, you know, um, as just like repeating and it know, um, as just like repeating and it know, um, as just like repeating and it goes like down in volume. Some things goes like down in volume. Some things goes like down in volume. Some things end suddenly, you know, some things end end suddenly, you know, some things end end suddenly, you know, some things end with like it's like a whimper or like with like it's like a whimper or like with like it's like a whimper or like intensity. And actually, you can think intensity. And actually, you can think intensity. And actually, you can think of these as like different ways to end of these as like different ways to end of these as like different ways to end something. Another one that I think is something. Another one that I think is something. Another one that I think is really cool, an essay that I read that really cool, an essay that I read that really cool, an essay that I read that was called um the emancipation of was called um the emancipation of was called um the emancipation of dissonance, which first of all is a dissonance, which first of all is a dissonance, which first of all is a really cool title. Uh but it was kind of really cool title. Uh but it was kind of really cool title. Uh but it was kind of like theorizing the history of music as like theorizing the history of music as like theorizing the history of music as um a history of accepting more sounds as um a history of accepting more sounds as um a history of accepting more sounds as music. So in the beginning it was just music. So in the beginning it was just music. So in the beginning it was just kind of like maybe drumming or like kind of like maybe drumming or like kind of like maybe drumming or like first it's like the tonic like you know first it's like the tonic like you know first it's like the tonic like you know you play the C and then you know the C you play the C and then you know the C you play the C and then you know the C an octave above and then it was adding an octave above and then it was adding an octave above and then it was adding the fifth like that's why it's called the fifth like that's why it's called the fifth like that's why it's called the perfect fifth and like a lot of the perfect fifth and like a lot of the perfect fifth and like a lot of Baroque music had that and then people Baroque music had that and then people Baroque music had that and then people started adding the third which is what started adding the third which is what started adding the third which is what creates chords like minor and major creates chords like minor and major creates chords like minor and major chords and initially that was resisted chords and initially that was resisted chords and initially that was resisted people are like what the hell is this people are like what the hell is this people are like what the hell is this feels off but then you add the seventh feels off but then you add the seventh feels off but then you add the seventh where you get jazz and people were like where you get jazz and people were like where you get jazz and people were like that's unacceptable like this is not that's unacceptable like this is not that's unacceptable like this is not music and then eventually you start to music and then eventually you start to music and then eventually you start to add more and more tones. So this was add more and more tones. So this was add more and more tones. So this was arguing for not just like the tw you arguing for not just like the tw you arguing for not just like the tw you know in western music there's 12 notes know in western music there's 12 notes know in western music there's 12 notes but in um Arabic music or Indian there's but in um Arabic music or Indian there's but in um Arabic music or Indian there's 24 and there's other kind of like um 24 and there's other kind of like um 24 and there's other kind of like um scales that you can use that have even scales that you can use that have even scales that you can use that have even more tones you can use micro tones now more tones you can use micro tones now more tones you can use micro tones now that you have electronic music you can that you have electronic music you can that you have electronic music you can make any kind of sound um and I I think make any kind of sound um and I I think make any kind of sound um and I I think this idea of accepting more sounds as this idea of accepting more sounds as this idea of accepting more sounds as music music music um is actually a helpful product um is actually a helpful product um is actually a helpful product principle principle principle >> um and and just a way of being where you >> um and and just a way of being where you >> um and and just a way of being where you can start to think like what are all can start to think like what are all can start to think like what are all these other ways of being that you think these other ways of being that you think these other ways of being that you think are off that actually could be are off that actually could be are off that actually could be productive or useful if you kind of put productive or useful if you kind of put productive or useful if you kind of put them in the right context. them in the right context. them in the right context. >> As your business scales up, everything >> As your business scales up, everything >> As your business scales up, everything gets more complex, especially your gets more complex, especially your gets more complex, especially your compliance and security needs. With so compliance and security needs. With so compliance and security needs. With so many tools offering band-aids [music] many tools offering band-aids [music] many tools offering band-aids [music] and patches, it's unfortunately far too and patches, it's unfortunately far too and patches, it's unfortunately far too easy for something to slip through the easy for something to slip through the easy for something to slip through the cracks. Fortunately, Vanta is a powerful cracks. Fortunately, Vanta is a powerful cracks. Fortunately, Vanta is a powerful tool [music] designed to simplify and tool [music] designed to simplify and tool [music] designed to simplify and automate your security work and deliver automate your security work and deliver automate your security work and deliver a single source of truth for compliance a single source of truth for compliance a single source of truth for compliance and risk. There's a reason that ramp, and risk. There's a reason that ramp, and risk. 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I know firsthand how complex the tech I know firsthand how complex the tech I know firsthand how complex the tech stack [music] is for asset management stack [music] is for asset management stack [music] is for asset management firms. And seemingly every new tool and firms. And seemingly every new tool and firms. And seemingly every new tool and data source makes the problem even data source makes the problem even data source makes the problem even worse, adding more complexity, more worse, adding more complexity, more worse, adding more complexity, more headcount, and more [music] risk. headcount, and more [music] risk. headcount, and more [music] risk. Ridgeline offers a better way forward. Ridgeline offers a better way forward. Ridgeline offers a better way forward. 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See what Ridgeline can unlock for your firm. Schedule a demo at unlock for your firm. Schedule a demo at unlock for your firm. Schedule a demo at ridgeline.ai. ridgeline.ai. ridgeline.ai. It seems also like an interesting It seems also like an interesting It seems also like an interesting throughine is in the world we're going throughine is in the world we're going throughine is in the world we're going into, how important it will be to make into, how important it will be to make into, how important it will be to make people feel something, people feel something, people feel something, >> right? Um but maybe also something new. >> right? Um but maybe also something new. >> right? Um but maybe also something new. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like like if we can create anything like >> Like like if we can create anything like >> Like like if we can create anything like the logos of it all is like yeah the logos of it all is like yeah the logos of it all is like yeah whatever you can create anything you whatever you can create anything you whatever you can create anything you want that the pathos is becomes really want that the pathos is becomes really want that the pathos is becomes really important on top of that and the important on top of that and the important on top of that and the insights for music is like make people insights for music is like make people insights for music is like make people feel something new. feel something new. feel something new. >> We use this a lot like I I'm telling >> We use this a lot like I I'm telling >> We use this a lot like I I'm telling people like hey we're not building a people like hey we're not building a people like hey we're not building a microwave. Microwaves are useful but microwave. Microwaves are useful but microwave. Microwaves are useful but they're commoditized right? You just go they're commoditized right? You just go they're commoditized right? You just go and say hey 1 minute heat it it does and say hey 1 minute heat it it does and say hey 1 minute heat it it does what it needs to do. There's no what it needs to do. There's no what it needs to do. There's no difference between most of them, but difference between most of them, but difference between most of them, but we're building a guitar, right? And with we're building a guitar, right? And with we're building a guitar, right? And with a guitar, there's just six strings and a guitar, there's just six strings and a guitar, there's just six strings and 12, you know, frets, but you could spend 12, you know, frets, but you could spend 12, you know, frets, but you could spend your whole life your whole life your whole life >> just getting better at that. And you can >> just getting better at that. And you can >> just getting better at that. And you can only be playing one style of music and only be playing one style of music and only be playing one style of music and it's still like new. And I actually it's still like new. And I actually it's still like new. And I actually think um like if you bring that to sales think um like if you bring that to sales think um like if you bring that to sales or like go to market things um it can or like go to market things um it can or like go to market things um it can feel like a crazy stretch, but actually feel like a crazy stretch, but actually feel like a crazy stretch, but actually if you actually if you actually if you actually respect that discipline and be like hey respect that discipline and be like hey respect that discipline and be like hey where what is the ultimate version of where what is the ultimate version of where what is the ultimate version of sales you need or like marketing or sales you need or like marketing or sales you need or like marketing or customer success that's why it's called customer success that's why it's called customer success that's why it's called go to market in my opinion is just like go to market in my opinion is just like go to market in my opinion is just like how do I take the thing that I made and how do I take the thing that I made and how do I take the thing that I made and give it to you when you need it and give it to you when you need it and give it to you when you need it and that's the I if I really truly was like that's the I if I really truly was like that's the I if I really truly was like hey what's the idealized form of this hey what's the idealized form of this hey what's the idealized form of this that's what it is yeah it's raining I that's what it is yeah it's raining I that's what it is yeah it's raining I bring an umbrella you were like great bring an umbrella you were like great bring an umbrella you were like great thank you right and that's what you thank you right and that's what you thank you right and that's what you actually want to get to. And I think actually want to get to. And I think actually want to get to. And I think there's a place where, you know, I made there's a place where, you know, I made there's a place where, you know, I made something, especially as people make so something, especially as people make so something, especially as people make so many new things and you happen to need many new things and you happen to need many new things and you happen to need it and it's very niche and I'm able to it and it's very niche and I'm able to it and it's very niche and I'm able to find you and give it to you and without find you and give it to you and without find you and give it to you and without necessarily manufacturing that desire in necessarily manufacturing that desire in necessarily manufacturing that desire in you, but ideally like if you need you, but ideally like if you need you, but ideally like if you need something, we can get it for you because something, we can get it for you because something, we can get it for you because we happen to be making it. we happen to be making it. we happen to be making it. >> Um, and so we're thinking about all of >> Um, and so we're thinking about all of >> Um, and so we're thinking about all of the creative ways to figure that out. the creative ways to figure that out. the creative ways to figure that out. One really interesting conversation you One really interesting conversation you One really interesting conversation you and I have had before is about the role and I have had before is about the role and I have had before is about the role of vision in company building. of vision in company building. of vision in company building. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the leader's responsibility or lack >> And the leader's responsibility or lack >> And the leader's responsibility or lack thereof to have one in the first place. thereof to have one in the first place. thereof to have one in the first place. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> And uh or to have one sometimes. >> And uh or to have one sometimes. >> And uh or to have one sometimes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'd love you to riff on the leader role >> I'd love you to riff on the leader role >> I'd love you to riff on the leader role and responsibility to have or not have a and responsibility to have or not have a and responsibility to have or not have a vision. vision. vision. >> I think when we were having that >> I think when we were having that >> I think when we were having that discussion too, my my uh instinct is to discussion too, my my uh instinct is to discussion too, my my uh instinct is to go one level deeper. Actually, let's go one level deeper. Actually, let's go one level deeper. Actually, let's turn it back to one of our statues. turn it back to one of our statues. turn it back to one of our statues. truth. Um, you need to say the truth. truth. Um, you need to say the truth. truth. Um, you need to say the truth. So, if you don't have a vision, then you So, if you don't have a vision, then you So, if you don't have a vision, then you don't have a vision. If you do have a don't have a vision. If you do have a don't have a vision. If you do have a vision, then you do have a vision. Don't vision, then you do have a vision. Don't vision, then you do have a vision. Don't say something that actually isn't say something that actually isn't say something that actually isn't happening. Um, and that's that's my happening. Um, and that's that's my happening. Um, and that's that's my answer to that is that I do think answer to that is that I do think answer to that is that I do think ultimately you need to kind of have some ultimately you need to kind of have some ultimately you need to kind of have some destination or like some guiding destination or like some guiding destination or like some guiding principle or some compass, but you don't principle or some compass, but you don't principle or some compass, but you don't need that at all times and you don't need that at all times and you don't need that at all times and you don't need to force it. If you just know what need to force it. If you just know what need to force it. If you just know what the next step is, you should take the the next step is, you should take the the next step is, you should take the next step. And sometimes things happen next step. And sometimes things happen next step. And sometimes things happen in all kinds of ways. You most of in all kinds of ways. You most of in all kinds of ways. You most of medical discoveries are complete medical discoveries are complete medical discoveries are complete coincidences. So many of like the most coincidences. So many of like the most coincidences. So many of like the most advanced things that we've got, I don't advanced things that we've got, I don't advanced things that we've got, I don't know, the cosmic microwave background. know, the cosmic microwave background. know, the cosmic microwave background. Complete coincidence. You couldn't have Complete coincidence. You couldn't have Complete coincidence. You couldn't have gone out and said, I want to discover gone out and said, I want to discover gone out and said, I want to discover the cosmic microwave background. There's the cosmic microwave background. There's the cosmic microwave background. There's so many of these things. And so I think so many of these things. And so I think so many of these things. And so I think we're telling ourselves a a story that we're telling ourselves a a story that we're telling ourselves a a story that is not true about the nature of is not true about the nature of is not true about the nature of discovery and how it happens. And I discovery and how it happens. And I discovery and how it happens. And I think we do a disservice to everybody think we do a disservice to everybody think we do a disservice to everybody when we go back and retell the story in when we go back and retell the story in when we go back and retell the story in a way that is not honest because it a way that is not honest because it a way that is not honest because it confuses the people who are on the path confuses the people who are on the path confuses the people who are on the path of figuring it out. So for me um I think of figuring it out. So for me um I think of figuring it out. So for me um I think a much more honest version let's say a much more honest version let's say a much more honest version let's say you're starting a company and you don't you're starting a company and you don't you're starting a company and you don't know what to do. So many people have know what to do. So many people have know what to do. So many people have that problem. All the stories of that problem. All the stories of that problem. All the stories of greatness are like I was 13 and I um saw greatness are like I was 13 and I um saw greatness are like I was 13 and I um saw this one thing and then I dedicated my this one thing and then I dedicated my this one thing and then I dedicated my whole life to it. And I think that whole life to it. And I think that whole life to it. And I think that happens and it also happens in other happens and it also happens in other happens and it also happens in other ways. So sort of optimize for discovery ways. So sort of optimize for discovery ways. So sort of optimize for discovery rather than destination would be like rather than destination would be like rather than destination would be like one way to think about it. one way to think about it. one way to think about it. >> I would say leave the space for the >> I would say leave the space for the >> I would say leave the space for the opportunity to discover. If you do have opportunity to discover. If you do have opportunity to discover. If you do have a vision, you should be clear about a vision, you should be clear about a vision, you should be clear about that. Um and clear how confident you are that. Um and clear how confident you are that. Um and clear how confident you are in that. And if you don't have a vision, in that. And if you don't have a vision, in that. And if you don't have a vision, I don't think that's a problem. Um I I don't think that's a problem. Um I I don't think that's a problem. Um I think you can take the next step and think you can take the next step and think you can take the next step and allow the vision to come. you know, um, allow the vision to come. you know, um, allow the vision to come. you know, um, in Native American traditions, I don't in Native American traditions, I don't in Native American traditions, I don't know why this is relevant, but it it's know why this is relevant, but it it's know why this is relevant, but it it's coming up for me, is like there are coming up for me, is like there are coming up for me, is like there are things called like vision quests where things called like vision quests where things called like vision quests where you go and fast for a few days and you go and fast for a few days and you go and fast for a few days and you're asking for a vision, right? And I you're asking for a vision, right? And I you're asking for a vision, right? And I think you know the sometimes you need to think you know the sometimes you need to think you know the sometimes you need to do things in order to get the vision of do things in order to get the vision of do things in order to get the vision of what you're supposed to do and and by what you're supposed to do and and by what you're supposed to do and and by and by the way in companies it also and by the way in companies it also and by the way in companies it also could change over time. So you might could change over time. So you might could change over time. So you might have a vision and then either the vision have a vision and then either the vision have a vision and then either the vision is wrong. A lot of companies who started is wrong. A lot of companies who started is wrong. A lot of companies who started five, six years ago that are kind of five, six years ago that are kind of five, six years ago that are kind of confused now because things have confused now because things have confused now because things have changed. Well, it's time to change the changed. Well, it's time to change the changed. Well, it's time to change the vision. And you don't need to settle on vision. And you don't need to settle on vision. And you don't need to settle on a new one immediately. You can say, a new one immediately. You can say, a new one immediately. You can say, "Hey, we don't we don't actually know "Hey, we don't we don't actually know "Hey, we don't we don't actually know what we're doing right now." Um, and we what we're doing right now." Um, and we what we're doing right now." Um, and we can take the next step in what we like can take the next step in what we like can take the next step in what we like the immediate next step in what we're the immediate next step in what we're the immediate next step in what we're doing right now and wait to receive that doing right now and wait to receive that doing right now and wait to receive that vision. vision. vision. >> Do you feel like you have a vision right >> Do you feel like you have a vision right >> Do you feel like you have a vision right now? now? now? Yeah, right now I feel pretty clear that Yeah, right now I feel pretty clear that Yeah, right now I feel pretty clear that about about about and within the like scope of what we're and within the like scope of what we're and within the like scope of what we're doing like what the vision is. We're doing like what the vision is. We're doing like what the vision is. We're basically just helping everybody every basically just helping everybody every basically just helping everybody every company in the world find who their best company in the world find who their best company in the world find who their best customer is and find more of them and customer is and find more of them and customer is and find more of them and accelerate that. accelerate that. accelerate that. >> What about the notion of wealth? Like >> What about the notion of wealth? Like >> What about the notion of wealth? Like you've also in these chap two chapters you've also in these chap two chapters you've also in these chap two chapters had this interesting experience of um had this interesting experience of um had this interesting experience of um now because of Clay's success you've now because of Clay's success you've now because of Clay's success you've achieved a level of wealth that by any achieved a level of wealth that by any achieved a level of wealth that by any measure is you know extraordinary. What measure is you know extraordinary. What measure is you know extraordinary. What has that process been like and what has has that process been like and what has has that process been like and what has it what has that taught you? it what has that taught you? it what has that taught you? >> The initial thing that I had thought was >> The initial thing that I had thought was >> The initial thing that I had thought was true is true is that there's no true is true is that there's no true is true is that there's no like amount of if you're not kind of like amount of if you're not kind of like amount of if you're not kind of like feeling whole in yourself, there's like feeling whole in yourself, there's like feeling whole in yourself, there's no amount of wealth that fills that. Um no amount of wealth that fills that. Um no amount of wealth that fills that. Um it it it doesn't it it it doesn't it it it doesn't change that because you know it's a it's change that because you know it's a it's change that because you know it's a it's a it's a continuous kind of like a it's a continuous kind of like a it's a continuous kind of like competitive game. But I think what competitive game. But I think what competitive game. But I think what material kind of like like abundance material kind of like like abundance material kind of like like abundance gives you is the like reality also of gives you is the like reality also of gives you is the like reality also of your time back. And I I'm choosing for your time back. And I I'm choosing for your time back. And I I'm choosing for example to build this company. I don't example to build this company. I don't example to build this company. I don't have to I don't need it to succeed more. have to I don't need it to succeed more. have to I don't need it to succeed more. I don't need to like make more money or I don't need to like make more money or I don't need to like make more money or whatever it is. I'm choosing what I want whatever it is. I'm choosing what I want whatever it is. I'm choosing what I want to be doing with my time. Um and that is to be doing with my time. Um and that is to be doing with my time. Um and that is like it goes back to kind of like that like it goes back to kind of like that like it goes back to kind of like that truth part. It's like really empowering truth part. It's like really empowering truth part. It's like really empowering to I don't I can make my own choices and to I don't I can make my own choices and to I don't I can make my own choices and I can test things out in the world and I can test things out in the world and I can test things out in the world and see if they work or not. Um like I'm not see if they work or not. Um like I'm not see if they work or not. Um like I'm not scared or worried about what happens, scared or worried about what happens, scared or worried about what happens, but I also needed to have that point of but I also needed to have that point of but I also needed to have that point of view in order to get here. So I think view in order to get here. So I think view in order to get here. So I think having the opportunity to like choose having the opportunity to like choose having the opportunity to like choose what I do with my time um and to like what I do with my time um and to like what I do with my time um and to like take bigger swings, it just it feels take bigger swings, it just it feels take bigger swings, it just it feels really important and then it's like what really important and then it's like what really important and then it's like what responsibility do I owe back to society? responsibility do I owe back to society? responsibility do I owe back to society? You also once said to be that all You also once said to be that all You also once said to be that all problems are communication problems. I'm problems are communication problems. I'm problems are communication problems. I'm curious how you've gotten better or what curious how you've gotten better or what curious how you've gotten better or what you've learned about not falling into you've learned about not falling into you've learned about not falling into that trap. that trap. that trap. >> It's not that all problems are >> It's not that all problems are >> It's not that all problems are communication problems. Like we might communication problems. Like we might communication problems. Like we might have a disagreement or different needs, have a disagreement or different needs, have a disagreement or different needs, but often but often but often uh we can't resolve it because we're not uh we can't resolve it because we're not uh we can't resolve it because we're not uh like we're making assumptions about uh like we're making assumptions about uh like we're making assumptions about each other. We're doing like all kinds each other. We're doing like all kinds each other. We're doing like all kinds of like game theory things about what of like game theory things about what of like game theory things about what would happen if you did this, if I did would happen if you did this, if I did would happen if you did this, if I did that. It's kind of like in negotiations. that. It's kind of like in negotiations. that. It's kind of like in negotiations. Um, you might have [clears throat] Um, you might have [clears throat] Um, you might have [clears throat] different strategies, but my strategy is different strategies, but my strategy is different strategies, but my strategy is to be as clear as possible about what I to be as clear as possible about what I to be as clear as possible about what I want, what I think you want. Assuming want, what I think you want. Assuming want, what I think you want. Assuming that you are really intelligent, can that you are really intelligent, can that you are really intelligent, can read kind of like and have access to the read kind of like and have access to the read kind of like and have access to the same information as me. I need to know same information as me. I need to know same information as me. I need to know what you want and what are the options what you want and what are the options what you want and what are the options available. And then we might still available. And then we might still available. And then we might still disagree, but at least we are disagree, but at least we are disagree, but at least we are disagreeing from a place of clarity disagreeing from a place of clarity disagreeing from a place of clarity rather than from a place of rather than from a place of rather than from a place of misunderstanding. Let's say we're asking misunderstanding. Let's say we're asking misunderstanding. Let's say we're asking someone to leave clay. In in in most someone to leave clay. In in in most someone to leave clay. In in in most cases, as long as the person is kind of cases, as long as the person is kind of cases, as long as the person is kind of like in a shared reality with us in a like in a shared reality with us in a like in a shared reality with us in a way that h um is based on clear way that h um is based on clear way that h um is based on clear communication, right? Like, hey, do you communication, right? Like, hey, do you communication, right? Like, hey, do you think it's working here? I don't for think it's working here? I don't for think it's working here? I don't for these reasons. What do you think? And these reasons. What do you think? And these reasons. What do you think? And maybe you're like, no, it is working. maybe you're like, no, it is working. maybe you're like, no, it is working. But and I was just like, okay, let's But and I was just like, okay, let's But and I was just like, okay, let's let's kind of like bridge the gap let's kind of like bridge the gap let's kind of like bridge the gap because we can get to a place where it's because we can get to a place where it's because we can get to a place where it's like, I don't want to be giving you like, I don't want to be giving you like, I don't want to be giving you negative feedback every single day. At negative feedback every single day. At negative feedback every single day. At one point I told someone, "Hey, listen. one point I told someone, "Hey, listen. one point I told someone, "Hey, listen. I've lost faith in the ability for you I've lost faith in the ability for you I've lost faith in the ability for you to bridge the gap." And I'm the CEO, so to bridge the gap." And I'm the CEO, so to bridge the gap." And I'm the CEO, so it's it's it's not a good uh like it's it's it's not a good uh like it's it's it's not a good uh like situation for you. Does it make sense? situation for you. Does it make sense? situation for you. Does it make sense? Right? And even if you think you can get Right? And even if you think you can get Right? And even if you think you can get there, I'm taking responsibility for there, I'm taking responsibility for there, I'm taking responsibility for that. I'm not saying that this is that. I'm not saying that this is that. I'm not saying that this is rational even. It's just I I can't do it rational even. It's just I I can't do it rational even. It's just I I can't do it and that's it. And so in that case it and that's it. And so in that case it and that's it. And so in that case it doesn't really make sense um for you to doesn't really make sense um for you to doesn't really make sense um for you to continue working here and I want to continue working here and I want to continue working here and I want to share that with you because I'm like you share that with you because I'm like you share that with you because I'm like you know I want to be like direct and clear know I want to be like direct and clear know I want to be like direct and clear about it and also own up that this is my about it and also own up that this is my about it and also own up that this is my call and I think a lot of people call and I think a lot of people call and I think a lot of people actually really appreciate that and are actually really appreciate that and are actually really appreciate that and are just like okay I get it that doesn't I just like okay I get it that doesn't I just like okay I get it that doesn't I wish that it was different but it it's wish that it was different but it it's wish that it was different but it it's not so I'm going to do something else. not so I'm going to do something else. not so I'm going to do something else. Most times if someone's leaving what are Most times if someone's leaving what are Most times if someone's leaving what are they worried about? They're worried they worried about? They're worried they worried about? They're worried about what are you going to say in the about what are you going to say in the about what are you going to say in the future to other people right? So I tell future to other people right? So I tell future to other people right? So I tell them, hey, if someone calls me up, I'm them, hey, if someone calls me up, I'm them, hey, if someone calls me up, I'm going to say it didn't work in these going to say it didn't work in these going to say it didn't work in these ways, but I think these are their ways, but I think these are their ways, but I think these are their strength. I think here are the gaps that strength. I think here are the gaps that strength. I think here are the gaps that we have in our organization that didn't we have in our organization that didn't we have in our organization that didn't support them. How do you not think about support them. How do you not think about support them. How do you not think about that? Right? Like when I call up a that? Right? Like when I call up a that? Right? Like when I call up a reference, it's like, can you tell me reference, it's like, can you tell me reference, it's like, can you tell me what was wrong with your company at the what was wrong with your company at the what was wrong with your company at the time? Cuz it wasn't perfect. time? Cuz it wasn't perfect. time? Cuz it wasn't perfect. >> It's always about someone else. This is >> It's always about someone else. This is >> It's always about someone else. This is obviously not true, right? Like there obviously not true, right? Like there obviously not true, right? Like there are times when um my management skills are times when um my management skills are times when um my management skills weren't there to like handle this weren't there to like handle this weren't there to like handle this particular person or the company itself particular person or the company itself particular person or the company itself was um not working and so it creates a was um not working and so it creates a was um not working and so it creates a really bad vibe for everybody inside. really bad vibe for everybody inside. really bad vibe for everybody inside. When things are working things are When things are working things are When things are working things are working when things are hard only a few working when things are hard only a few working when things are hard only a few people can handle that. The reason I'm people can handle that. The reason I'm people can handle that. The reason I'm saying these things by the way is I'm saying these things by the way is I'm saying these things by the way is I'm like these are the things that I think like these are the things that I think like these are the things that I think are actually interesting through so part are actually interesting through so part are actually interesting through so part of my experience of building a company of my experience of building a company of my experience of building a company was I I just wanted to know through was I I just wanted to know through was I I just wanted to know through building it and being given the hard building it and being given the hard building it and being given the hard choices of how to relate to people or choices of how to relate to people or choices of how to relate to people or like you know given a quick profit like you know given a quick profit like you know given a quick profit versus a long profit what would I do and versus a long profit what would I do and versus a long profit what would I do and like what's the experience that other like what's the experience that other like what's the experience that other people who are making these choices are people who are making these choices are people who are making these choices are facing and I think we're not talking facing and I think we're not talking facing and I think we're not talking about these things because the risk is about these things because the risk is about these things because the risk is too high right like if If I talk about too high right like if If I talk about too high right like if If I talk about what I'm doing, you know, in a company what I'm doing, you know, in a company what I'm doing, you know, in a company and like how I'm treating people, maybe and like how I'm treating people, maybe and like how I'm treating people, maybe someone will sue you or like I don't someone will sue you or like I don't someone will sue you or like I don't know, someone will lose customers will know, someone will lose customers will know, someone will lose customers will lose faith in you. But actually, these lose faith in you. But actually, these lose faith in you. But actually, these are kind of like the interesting things. are kind of like the interesting things. are kind of like the interesting things. I really feel like companies are built I really feel like companies are built I really feel like companies are built through um rules of thumb where I'm through um rules of thumb where I'm through um rules of thumb where I'm like, "Hey, how do you scale from 100 to like, "Hey, how do you scale from 100 to like, "Hey, how do you scale from 100 to 300?" And then I talk to five people who 300?" And then I talk to five people who 300?" And then I talk to five people who have done it and they tell me. And by have done it and they tell me. And by have done it and they tell me. And by the way, I've done things that are the way, I've done things that are the way, I've done things that are completely the opposite of that and it's completely the opposite of that and it's completely the opposite of that and it's worked. And the reality is when you're worked. And the reality is when you're worked. And the reality is when you're going from 100 50 for example to 300 going from 100 50 for example to 300 going from 100 50 for example to 300 people you don't want to take the risk people you don't want to take the risk people you don't want to take the risk of doing something new. You're like of doing something new. You're like of doing something new. You're like these people did it but then you're these people did it but then you're these people did it but then you're going to get the same problems that they going to get the same problems that they going to get the same problems that they had. So many people told me there would had. So many people told me there would had. So many people told me there would be all these weird problems scaling 50 be all these weird problems scaling 50 be all these weird problems scaling 50 to 300 people. None of them happened. to 300 people. None of them happened. to 300 people. None of them happened. >> We have some other things that happened >> We have some other things that happened >> We have some other things that happened you know but I didn't have the typical you know but I didn't have the typical you know but I didn't have the typical problems because they didn't do it the problems because they didn't do it the problems because they didn't do it the typical way. typical way. typical way. >> As we approach the end one more question >> As we approach the end one more question >> As we approach the end one more question about endings. about endings. about endings. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh I'm realizing I take a lot of notes >> Uh I'm realizing I take a lot of notes >> Uh I'm realizing I take a lot of notes after our various meetings over the after our various meetings over the after our various meetings over the years. The first time we met, the idea years. The first time we met, the idea years. The first time we met, the idea that I remember writing down was that that I remember writing down was that that I remember writing down was that you w you told me something like you you w you told me something like you you w you told me something like you wish that there was something like a wish that there was something like a wish that there was something like a death duela for companies. death duela for companies. death duela for companies. >> Oh, right. I'm just like why are we not >> Oh, right. I'm just like why are we not >> Oh, right. I'm just like why are we not talking about whether it is good to talking about whether it is good to talking about whether it is good to scale like uh every business every I scale like uh every business every I scale like uh every business every I mean people talk about it a little bit mean people talk about it a little bit mean people talk about it a little bit in this like really boring um super worn in this like really boring um super worn in this like really boring um super worn out way of like should you raise VC out way of like should you raise VC out way of like should you raise VC capital or should you I don't know like capital or should you I don't know like capital or should you I don't know like bootstrap completely non-interesting bootstrap completely non-interesting bootstrap completely non-interesting like actually ways of talking about it like actually ways of talking about it like actually ways of talking about it but it's like as a bit as if you I don't but it's like as a bit as if you I don't but it's like as a bit as if you I don't know if you had um like a donut know if you had um like a donut know if you had um like a donut business, should you try to scale it? business, should you try to scale it? business, should you try to scale it? What does scaling it entail? What do you What does scaling it entail? What do you What does scaling it entail? What do you lose when you scale it? Should we be as lose when you scale it? Should we be as lose when you scale it? Should we be as a society incentivizing all businesses a society incentivizing all businesses a society incentivizing all businesses to scale? And we all know this problem to scale? And we all know this problem to scale? And we all know this problem which is like, hey, this restaurant was which is like, hey, this restaurant was which is like, hey, this restaurant was really good, now it sucks. So, because I really good, now it sucks. So, because I really good, now it sucks. So, because I think there's a life cycle to things and think there's a life cycle to things and think there's a life cycle to things and maybe part of this meditation retreat maybe part of this meditation retreat maybe part of this meditation retreat and thinking about the death thing, I've and thinking about the death thing, I've and thinking about the death thing, I've been thinking about like is there a life been thinking about like is there a life been thinking about like is there a life cycle to companies and should we just be cycle to companies and should we just be cycle to companies and should we just be okay with that? I I'll pick Microsoft okay with that? I I'll pick Microsoft okay with that? I I'll pick Microsoft for a second. is just like you have an for a second. is just like you have an for a second. is just like you have an initial put a computer on every desk. I initial put a computer on every desk. I initial put a computer on every desk. I remember that mission right when I was a remember that mission right when I was a remember that mission right when I was a kid and you did put a computer in every kid and you did put a computer in every kid and you did put a computer in every desk but now the mission is u devices desk but now the mission is u devices desk but now the mission is u devices and services and you know do do cool and services and you know do do cool and services and you know do do cool things right the idea of a company I things right the idea of a company I things right the idea of a company I think started in the 1500s I think it think started in the 1500s I think it think started in the 1500s I think it was the what East India company or was the what East India company or was the what East India company or something so it's like you you get something so it's like you you get something so it's like you you get together for a purpose and then you do together for a purpose and then you do together for a purpose and then you do it and then should you disband or should it and then should you disband or should it and then should you disband or should you keep like the minimal number of you keep like the minimal number of you keep like the minimal number of people I think the crypto people have people I think the crypto people have people I think the crypto people have had some of these ideas okay you built had some of these ideas okay you built had some of these ideas okay you built the layer now you move on to the layer. the layer now you move on to the layer. the layer now you move on to the layer. Um I do think it's worthwhile as all Um I do think it's worthwhile as all Um I do think it's worthwhile as all this disruption is happening to start this disruption is happening to start this disruption is happening to start thinking about like the new ways of thinking about like the new ways of thinking about like the new ways of doing this. I'm curious about it, but doing this. I'm curious about it, but doing this. I'm curious about it, but it's just um a death duela for companies it's just um a death duela for companies it's just um a death duela for companies is hey if your company has achieved its is hey if your company has achieved its is hey if your company has achieved its mission, should we help it pass? Maybe mission, should we help it pass? Maybe mission, should we help it pass? Maybe it should have children and like people it should have children and like people it should have children and like people come out and they do cool stuff, but come out and they do cool stuff, but come out and they do cool stuff, but maybe we can institutionalize these maybe we can institutionalize these maybe we can institutionalize these things rather than trying to scale things rather than trying to scale things rather than trying to scale things that become zombies or become things that become zombies or become things that become zombies or become worse versions of their former selves worse versions of their former selves worse versions of their former selves and then complain about it. when we're and then complain about it. when we're and then complain about it. when we're incentivizing everybody to scale no incentivizing everybody to scale no incentivizing everybody to scale no matter what. matter what. matter what. >> When you and I are together, I feel like >> When you and I are together, I feel like >> When you and I are together, I feel like we always talk a little bit about Clay we always talk a little bit about Clay we always talk a little bit about Clay and a lot of bit about even more and a lot of bit about even more and a lot of bit about even more interesting things. And Clay's very interesting things. And Clay's very interesting things. And Clay's very interesting. interesting. interesting. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> this has been yet another example of one >> this has been yet another example of one >> this has been yet another example of one of those conversations. I've loved of those conversations. I've loved of those conversations. I've loved having it. When I do these, I ask having it. When I do these, I ask having it. When I do these, I ask everyone the same traditional final everyone the same traditional final everyone the same traditional final question. What is the kindest thing that question. What is the kindest thing that question. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? The one anyone's ever done for you? The one anyone's ever done for you? The one that's coming to my mind immediately I that's coming to my mind immediately I that's coming to my mind immediately I had already mentioned actually but it's had already mentioned actually but it's had already mentioned actually but it's uh like a few friends have come up to me uh like a few friends have come up to me uh like a few friends have come up to me especially when uh Clay before Clay especially when uh Clay before Clay especially when uh Clay before Clay succeeded um and were like hey you don't succeeded um and were like hey you don't succeeded um and were like hey you don't need to do anything we just love you need to do anything we just love you need to do anything we just love you anyway and then I realized oh I also anyway and then I realized oh I also anyway and then I realized oh I also don't want like I don't care what don't want like I don't care what don't want like I don't care what they're doing I don't care what they they're doing I don't care what they they're doing I don't care what they achieve I just implicitly like this achieve I just implicitly like this achieve I just implicitly like this person and love them and knowing that I person and love them and knowing that I person and love them and knowing that I had that and then I could give that back had that and then I could give that back had that and then I could give that back to myself as well without any achieve to myself as well without any achieve to myself as well without any achieve achievement. Um cuz I think like my achievement. Um cuz I think like my achievement. Um cuz I think like my childhood wounding was feeling like I childhood wounding was feeling like I childhood wounding was feeling like I must achieve in order to have like care must achieve in order to have like care must achieve in order to have like care and love and I was like I actually don't and love and I was like I actually don't and love and I was like I actually don't need that. It created a ton of clarity need that. It created a ton of clarity need that. It created a ton of clarity where I was like I'm doing things where I was like I'm doing things where I was like I'm doing things because I want to not because I need because I want to not because I need because I want to not because I need something from it. Clay is just the something from it. Clay is just the something from it. Clay is just the output of a lot of like thoughts and output of a lot of like thoughts and output of a lot of like thoughts and things and we're doing it in a way for things and we're doing it in a way for things and we're doing it in a way for me I hope where I'm not attached um I'm me I hope where I'm not attached um I'm me I hope where I'm not attached um I'm not attached because I don't need not attached because I don't need not attached because I don't need anything from it. It should just I want anything from it. It should just I want anything from it. It should just I want it to evolve the way it wants to evolve. it to evolve the way it wants to evolve. it to evolve the way it wants to evolve. [music] [music] [music] >> Thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you so much for your time. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Your finance team isn't losing money on >> Your finance team isn't losing money on big mistakes. [music] It's leaking big mistakes. 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