Building Pixar, Working With Steve Jobs, and Cultivating Creativity | Ed Catmull
When leading a team, people with power or perceived power need to shut up for the first 10-15 minutes of discussions. If a person with power speaks first, they set the tone for everything that follows. Let others start the discussion, then enter it—but enter as an equal contributor, not as the autho
1h 34mKey Takeaway
When leading a team, people with power or perceived power need to shut up for the first 10-15 minutes of discussions. If a person with power speaks first, they set the tone for everything that follows. Let others start the discussion, then enter it—but enter as an equal contributor, not as the authority figure. This prevents you from derailing the conversation and allows genuine ideas to surface before your influence shapes the room.
Episode Overview
Ed Catmull, co-founder of Pixar, shares insights on creative leadership, the Brain Trust process, and his unique working relationship with Steve Jobs. The conversation explores how Pixar built mechanisms to surface truth, managed board dynamics, navigated Disney contract negotiations, and created an environment where honest feedback could flourish despite power dynamics and ego.
Key Insights
The Brain Trust: Building a Culture of Candid Feedback
Pixar's Brain Trust was a carefully designed mechanism where directors would view each other's films and provide honest feedback. The key wasn't just assembling smart people—it was creating psychological safety where people focused on solving the problem rather than protecting their egos or careers. The original group had already worked together intensely on Toy Story, so they had no fear of embarrassment and were solely focused on making the work better.
Steve Jobs Valued Disagreement More Than Agreement
Over Pixar's 10 years as a public company, Steve Jobs fired two board members for never disagreeing with him. He believed that if they didn't disagree, they weren't bringing value to the company. Board meetings were lively, loud, and thrilling—arenas of productive disagreement. About a third of the time Jobs was right, a third of the time Catmull was right, and a third of the time Catmull just did what he wanted after they'd discussed it thoroughly.
The Outside Force: Why Fresh Perspective Matters
Pixar initially had Tom Schumacher from Disney as an 'outside force'—someone with a vested interest in success who only saw the films occasionally and could provide fresh perspective. When that ended, they tried replacing it with the Brain Trust but discovered internal directors couldn't truly be 'outside' since they were in the building and always knew what was happening. They eventually found their outside force in Steve Jobs, who was banned from Brain Trust meetings but provided crucial perspective after each screening.
Power Dynamics: The Danger of the Strong Voice
Steve Jobs had such a powerful voice that directors would claim he saw things in films nobody else had noticed—yet Catmull, who attended every meeting, confirms everything Jobs said had been mentioned before by someone else. The difference? People learned to disregard familiar voices but couldn't disregard Jobs. He was so clear and articulate that the same feedback finally broke through. This reveals how easily we tune out regular colleagues while being moved by authority figures saying identical things.
Going Deeper: Most People Stop at One Layer
When making decisions, most people like to go down one layer, form a decision, and move on. This is a shortcut to make decisions quickly based on limited information. But you can't stop there—you have to keep peeling away layers to figure out what's really underneath. Getting at underlying factors is inherently a long-term strategy that requires different mechanisms within an organization to arrive at better insight.
Notable Quotes
"Steve fired two members of the board of directors of Pixar. The reason he fired them was that they never disagreed. And he said, 'If they don't disagree with me, then they aren't bringing any value to the company.'"
"There's no upside in being wrong. As soon as he understood something, he would change quickly."
"The people with power, either real or perceived power, need to shut the hell up for the first 10 to 15 minutes. If a person with power speaks, they tend to set the tone for the rest of the discussion."
"There was nothing that Steve ever said that had not been said by somebody else before in one of those meetings. Steve was so clear and articulate that saying the same thing would actually break through in ways that you wouldn't hear from the others."
"Most companies are full of shit. What they've got are people around them who are telling them what the leader wants to hear, and the leader thinks because they're hearing what they want to hear that they got this really insightful group. But it's not really about diving deep."
Action Items
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1
Implement the 10-15 Minute Silence Rule
If you hold power or authority in meetings, deliberately stay silent for the first 10-15 minutes. Let others set the tone and direction of the discussion. When you do speak, enter as an equal contributor focused on the problem, not as the authority figure providing the answer.
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2
Seek Out and Reward Disagreement
Actively look for people who disagree with you and create space for that disagreement to be productive. If everyone around you agrees too quickly or too often, question whether you're getting real insight or just hearing what you want to hear. Consider Steve Jobs's approach: if someone never disagrees, they may not be adding value.
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3
Establish an 'Outside Force' for Your Projects
Identify someone outside your immediate team who has a vested interest in your success but only sees your work periodically. This fresh perspective can jar you from fragile ideas you've built in your head and provide insights that daily collaborators might miss because they're too close to the work.
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4
Keep Peeling the Layers
When facing a problem or decision, resist the urge to stop at the first layer of understanding. Force yourself to ask 'why' multiple times and dig deeper into underlying factors. This long-term strategy of getting underneath things will lead to better insights than quick decisions based on surface information.