Buddhist Hacks for Anxiety and Overthinking | Joseph Goldstein

Key Takeaway

When meditating, use the phrase 'there is a body' to anchor awareness in whole-body sensations rather than narrowly focusing on breath alone. This wider frame prevents over-efforting and creates a relaxed awareness where breath, emotions, and thoughts can arise naturally. Start each session with this phrase, then let mindfulness expand to whatever emerges—transforming meditation from a tense exercise into an easeful exploration of present-moment experience.

Episode Overview

Dan Harris interviews his meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein about Buddhist phrases and techniques for working with anxiety and overthinking. They explore the phrase 'there is a body' and its applications in both seated and walking meditation, discuss various perspectives on walking meditation (including walking through space, walking in a dream, and walking through the mind), and address common meditation challenges like striving and self-assessment.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Buddhist Hacks for Anxiety and Overthinking | Joseph Goldstein from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing? So today we're going to talk about some Buddhist strategies for two deeply related and very very common ailments. anxiety and overthinking. I've been struggling with both of these ailments ever since I can remember. And one of the people who's helped me the most in this regard is Joseph Goldstein. Regular listeners to this podcast will be familiar with Joseph and his very funny, very wise, downto-earth style. But if you don't know him, uh, let me introduce you.

He's one of the foremost Buddhist teachers in the West. He's been my teacher for about 15 years. and I recently convinced him to write a book with me using a collection of these little teaching phrases that he's cooked up over the years. These are pathy, often very funny phrases that Joseph uses while he's teaching people to meditate and to incorporate aspects of the dharma or Buddhism into their lives. I have put together a list of about a hundred of these useful phrases which are really just bite-sized wisdom for your meditation practice and for your daily life.

The book we're writing won't be coming out for several years, but I'm in the middle of conducting a series of interviews with Joseph. Each one of them covering just a few of the phrases, and we will be releasing the interviews uh right here on the podcast in the long runup to the eventual who knows when publication of the book. The first installment in this series of interviews uh with Joseph about his phrases came out just a few days ago on uh Thursday, January 1st. If you didn't get a chance to listen to that, no big deal.

This episode will still make sense, but um if you're curious, you can definitely go back and listen. It's it's worth doing so. Today, we'll be covering the following phrases. Uh the practice assessment tapes, whatever works, cowboy dharma, dead end, is this useful? And then a quartet of phrases that you can use in your walking meditation. Don't worry if these phrases don't make sense right now. Stick with us and you'll get a thorough explanation coming up. Speaking of Joseph, he will be leading our free 7-day New Year's meditation challenge which starts tomorrow.

If you want to sign up, just download my new app which is called 10% with Dan Harris. You can get it at danh harris.com or wherever you get your apps. When you download the app, you'll get a free 30-day trial and that free trial will cover the 7-day New Year's meditation challenge. So, it's a kind of try before you buy situation. The challenge is incredible. Joseph gives a kind of master class and on-ramp to Buddhist meditation which is good for both beginners and experienced meditators. I was in the room with Joseph as he recorded the sessions and I got a ton out of it.

In fact, I will be doing the challenge alongside all of you and then we'll be doing some live Q&A sessions throughout the course of the seven days so you can ask questions of me. Okay? So, head on over to danh harris.com, download the app, or you can get it wherever you get your apps. And we will be back with Joseph Goldstein right after this. The best B2B marketing often gets wasted on the wrong people. I can't tell you how often I'm scrolling and I get served ads for stuff I have no interest in.

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Just go to linkedin.com/happier. That's linkedin.com/happier. So let's start with a phrase you use while you were teaching meditation that I as is my want completely rejected for many years before I adopted it as if it were my own. And the phrase is taken from the Buddhist texts uh and it is there is a body. I didn't like it because it sounds like something you say at a crime scene. So I I just it sounded weird and clunky, but can you just talk about why why you found it so powerful?

First to say it is a little weird and clunky. So I I just a similar sense of it, but it, but it, but I have found it really helpful. It's a phrase from the Buddhist discourse on the four foundations of mindfulness which is the basic discourse describing mindfulness practice. So it's a very central core teaching. teaching. teaching. Can I just jump in on that for a second? a discourse meaning the Buddha is said to have given a bunch of talks during his time on planet earth and those talks were then memorialized at first through the oral tradition and then written down many hundreds of years later.

So some of these discourses have become more foundational than others and so one of the discourses is called the Satipatana Suta and the way we translate it now is the four foundations of mindfulness. In other words, four ways to establish mindfulness in your mind. So I'm just jumping in. jumping in. jumping in. No, it's helpful. So this phrase there is a body is found in this discourse and the whole sense is be mindful. be mindful. be mindful. Of course this is in the poly language. So the English translation.

So the phrase says be mindful and then in the poly equivalent of quotation marks there is a body and then to the extent necessary for clear knowing and continuous mindfulness mindfulness mindfulness that's the whole phrase but because but because but because that phrase there is a body is set book in the equivalent of quotation marks. It was Biku Analio who is a German monk, great scholar, great practitioner and he wrote a wonderful book about the sativan suta. He highlighted the fact that because it's in quotation marks, it almost serves it's like the almost the equivalent of a mental note or a label that that the phrase can be used to acknowledge something in our practice.

So I started when I first read that that's interesting because I had never used that before even highlighted that particular phrase. So when I started using it and applying it there is a body as a way of beginning a sitting meditation and then I extended it actually to the walking with some interesting outcomes. I saw that it did something very helpful in terms of being with the breath for example in a way that was very relaxed you know where we weren't manipulating the breath or forcing it because a common experience is that when people people people really focus down on the breath If they get the instruction, okay, be with the in breath, be with the outreath.

outreath. outreath. There can be the suggestion is to narrow the focus the focus the focus just either to the nose or the rising falling of the abdomen. But in that narrowing of the focus that can often trigger a little overefering or manipulating or some way we're we're interfering with the natural rhythm of the breath. So what I found by starting with there is a body it like created a larger framework on which to rest our attention. So rather than the narrowing to a particular point or particular area in the body, this is taking the whole body.

It's like the whole body awareness. There is a body. So just as a sidebar that phrase it's not a metaphysical statement about there is a body or there isn't a body. It's not about that although it it does have some implications for that which I'll mention later. So it's just it's really just a way of guiding people as they're beginning a sitting to settle into a full body awareness. It is a body and then holding that frame and becoming aware of the sensations of the body breathing within the frame rather than narrowing the attention.

So there is a body and we're feeling the whole body awareness and then just within that within that within that easeful awareness of the whole body we'll automatically become aware within it of the sensations of the body breathing. breathing. breathing. that really can help be with the breathing breathing breathing without interfering, without manipulating, without overeing. So in that way it just becomes a good way to start and settle into the process of mindfulness of whatever is arising. And then within that same frame, the larger frame there is a body, we may become aware of sensations of the body breathing, but also aware of other sensations, aware of sounds, even thoughts or emotions can be seen to arise within that bigger framework and it just creates a quality of ease and relaxation.

relaxation. relaxation. And I'll just say that it's worth exploring because for some people that will be helpful. Other people may not have a problem with zeroing in on the breath in a narrow way. So if we can do that without manipulating or without overeing, overeing, overeing, that's also a completely fine and helpful way to practice. So this just provides provides provides an alternative and even possibly from time to time we go back and forth just intuitively seeing okay which approach would be most helpful. Now Now Now with respect to the walking I find that phrase really helpful and very interesting.

So I would be walking and then just use the phrase there is a body. So that instead of zeroing in or narrowing the attention to the sensations in the foot or leg there's just a whole body awareness moving through space. Now quite ironically using the phrase there is a body in walking in that way revealed that there is no body because the felt experience in that what it's just sensations in space that was the feeling of walking with that frame you know where we're just saying whole body awareness there's a body and then walking and then being with the experience.

experience. experience. It's just these it's just sensations in space happening and this the form or solidity of the body disappears. So it's kind of interesting. We're using the phrase there is a body to see there is no body in in the way we think of body as being solid or fixed. There is no body and there's nobody. Uh but yeah, you're you're pointing to both which is a deep question. We'll we'll come back to that in a second. We'll actually come back to the walking in a second because using there is a body in the walking actually birthed a few more phrases which we will get to and I've made notes of them.

But I let me just stay with the seated practice of using there is a body for a second because I want to do my thing of repeating it back to you and making sure I've got it and by extension that the listener has it. So I could sit this is actually a full meditation practice in some ways. I could sit and just use this phrase there is a body to gently attune my mind to the all of these sensations that are with me all the time that I'm mostly tuning out because I'm stuck in my head in I'm stuck in the swirling stories of my head.

There is a body I just it opens the door to for all of these sensations that are naturally happening being these signals that are being sent north if that's even the way the mind works from the body to to conscious awareness but mostly are being tuned out again because I'm I'm marching through my to-do list and then once you have that anchor that frame frame frame well then actually you can start to kind of in a light way tune into almost anything from the the feeling of your breath happening maybe at one specific point or maybe the whole the whole continuum of the breath from chest to belly to nose and back or emotions and thoughts might arise and from this home base of being anchored in body sensations I can then turn my mindful attention to whatever else is coming up again is that close.

Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, another another metaphor to use. It's kind of the difference between a wide angle lens on a camera and a zoom lens. lens. lens. And And And to really begin to explore how both of those perspectives can be integrated in our practice. And so sometimes we practice with a wide angle lens where we're taking everything in and then sometimes we change like we go to a zoom lens where we zoom in on a particular object. And it's interesting just to learn how to trust the intuition really.

You know, if we're in a wide angle lens and then the mind just begins spacing out and wandering a lot, maybe a little zoom lens activity would be helpful. If we're on zoom lens and we're getting a little tight about it. So then switch to wide angle lens. And so this is just an interesting way of exploring what what what aspect of attention would be most helpful at a particular time. Again, we're going to get to the walking meditation in a second, but as you know, I coming into these interviews with a set of phrases that I've collected just from knowing you for 15 years.

One phrase that I did not put on the list that's coming to mind that we may or may not want to include, but I've heard you say this. I remember you saying it at the very first meditation retreat I attended with you in 2010. Just play. You were giving me and others. I think I was in a small group meeting with you with a bunch of other yogis or meditators and you were saying look you could you weren't I don't remember exactly what you were saying but let's say you were talking about zooming in or or having a wide angle lens and the instruction was just play with it with it with it and see you don't have to get too uptight about it just play with it see how it goes does that resonate with you as a possible phrase yeah that's yes I think it's really important important important And it's And it's And it's it's really just an expression or other words that one could use to mean the same thing.

And maybe people respond to particular words and not others but to play with it to explore to investigate. investigate. investigate. So all of those it's really saying the same. Don't be afraid to explore you know because I think this is how we learn learn learn in terms of understanding the many many nuances of practice. We see what works for us what doesn't what works at a particular time you know and maybe it works well for a while and then it stops working. So this sense of exploration or play I've just found really helpful for me.

And it's possible that other people or some people might not find it helpful. And And And it's possible that instruction might just create confusion. Well, play, how do I do that? And I don't quite understand that. So for some people it may be that very specific instructions do this. do this. do this. Yes. Yes. Yes. Do this. Do this. Do this. Yes. Yes. Yes. For some people that might be really helpful. helpful. helpful. So I just want to say that there are lots of different skillful means and the Buddha was you know known for his ability to give teachings that address the specific needs of the person he was talking to and I like that understanding so that we don't get fixed that there's only one approach there are many different approaches depending on our own particular conditioning and what's helpful and what's helpful at a particular time.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Because what might be helpful at one point maybe something else would be really helpful later on. So this spirit of dogmatic non-dogmatism right right right is really reflected in a phrase that you actually used in that answer but that is worth highlighting which is whatever works. works. works. Yes. That that has become one of my favorite mantras because we sometimes don't know exactly what will work, you know, but in the course of our practice, we oh yeah, this seems to seems to address address address what's happening right now.

And this what I'm about to say might be a little controversial, but but in my long experience in practice and with different teachers, sometimes I would hear teachers give a very specific instruction. And for where I was at the time, it just didn't work. But the teacher said to do this and I went with whatever works and I think generally it seems like good advice. If it's not working, either explore why it's not working, which would be its own interesting investigation, investigation, investigation, or see if there can be some adjustment to whatever the instruction is about so that it begins to work and begins to be effective for our own minds at that particular time.

particular time. particular time. So, are you saying that I can ignore you going forward? going forward? going forward? No, not you can, but I would like a full report on why it didn't work and what you found more helpful so then I can steal it back from you and start using it with others. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, this really does speak, and this is a digression, really does speak to a complaint that I get from listeners, customers, people that I I'm giving speeches to, which is, you know, it's it's a it really sucks if you're serious about meditation and you don't have a teacher to work with.

I have this massive luxury and privilege of being able to work directly with you. That is not something the vast majority of humans have. So, what to do about that? given the technology these days. There are a lot of teachings online online online that that a va a vast amount of teachings. teachings. teachings. So I'll just give one simple example but one could extrapolate from this. Suppose one is struggling with one of the hindrances desire or anger anger anger sleepiness sleepiness sleepiness and and and you don't have a teacher that you're working one-on-one with that you could discuss it with but you realize I don't have a handle on this yet.

It would be very easy to go online and and and just as a public announcement there is a website called Dharma Seed one word one word one word darmancy.org darmancy.org darmancy.org And this is an organization which has the recordings of thousands and thousands of dharma talks in in the vapasa tradition insight meditation tradition from many many many teachers. So it's a website where you can access all of these talks very easily either by teacher or by topic. So for example, if one is having a problem problem problem with sleepiness, you know, or anger or whatever, one could go on this website, look for talks by topic and listen to a whole range of teachers talking about how to work with that mind state, state, state, which is not that different than having a one-on-one with somebody, you know, because in these dharma talks there's often very specific suggestions for how to work with these different common problems.

So I think there are ways of for people who are really are interested and want to take their practice deeper in these ways. I think the resources are there. I think Dharma Seed's great and yes dharmic.org Or you can just go in onto the website and search by topic and there are all these talks there. Dharma talks meaning that's the term of art in the Buddhist tradition where every evening on retreat one of the teachers will give a talk for an hour about aspects of the dharma.

How comfortable are you advising people to ask chat GPT or some other LLM about problems in their meditation? You were reading my mind then and I was sitting here thinking do I want to bring this up. I didn't know whether we were getting into frost territory. I have found chatbt and other other AI platforms platforms platforms to be incredibly helpful helpful helpful with dharma questions and dharma responses. responses. responses. I've asked it a lot of questions. some, you know, very basic just to see what it says, some rather esoteric Buddhist questions.

both accurate and clear and comprehensive the enters have been. So, as the answers can sometimes not be correct. You should check it or in some way assess way assess way assess what it's saying. So, just to have that in the background of one's mind. And so there could be an interesting interplay between getting a response from chat GPT and maybe listening to a few Dharma talks on the same topic see or reading you know about it but my experience so far has been that it's pretty good and quite amazing.

Okay, thank you for humoring me during that digression. Okay, so let's go back to walking meditation. you uh at the beginning of this episode talked about how you started using the phrase the phrase we started with here which is there is a body you started using it in your walking meditation and I noted that there were a bunch of phrases that seem to have emerged from that experience I'm going to list a few of them to you and we can take whatever ones or all of them if you want you kind of said one of them earlier which is sensations moving through space but then there was also walking through space and walking through the mind.

You want to attack these? these? these? Yeah. Yeah. So, this was in a way an offshoot of there is a body. When those phrases came to mind, I wasn't particularly linking it to there is a body, but they are related. So I was on self retreat just doing walking meditation and playing as I am want to do probably to excess. So I I must say that one does want to keep an eye out for when we're just really entertaining ourselves. and for whatever reason, I'm not even sure why it arose, I just started feeling the whole body moving through space.

And so the phrase was, "Oh, just walking through space." And then that actually became a little meditative instruction. So sometimes in my walking meditation I'll just intentionally intentionally intentionally frame okay walk just walking through space. So what that does similar to there is a body but even a larger wide angle lens is making space just the visual space you know that we always have. making that that that the holding framework rather than just the whole body being the whole framework. So framework. So framework. So it's walking it's walking it's walking aware of the space through which we're walking.

And so once it's set up, it's not that one has to continually be thinking about this. As soon as you have that setup in the mind and play a little bit just to get the the felt experience of it just just just it becoming the space in which the walking is happening. It's really interesting. It's just a different experience of walking of us being constrained within the limits of our bodily form. I don't know if that makes sense but I don't know because awareness can actually be aware of the space as well as of the body.

So walking through space just gives us a whole different perspective. So that was one phrase. So what you're asking us to do with walking through space is we may have a sense of self that we have consciously or subconsciously lodged in the body. This is me. I'm me in this body. What you're saying is can I to kind of like and I'm using this tongue and cheek like astral project that sense of self and and this is a leap and this is we should all play with it.

It's a little weird but I found it actually to be very interesting to just get a sense of our awareness being lodged in the infinite space through which we are walking. Okay. First just one little clarification. clarification. clarification. Some teachers Some teachers Some teachers do do do I don't know if they're uh they're talking or teaching about this specifically this little exercise but it's in the ballpark and they will use the term infinite space. I don't like to use that term. Okay. Okay. Okay. Because Because Because when I'm doing this, how do I know if the space that I'm experiencing is infinite or not?

It it kind of gets you into a either physical or metaphysical question, a physics-based question. physics-based question. physics-based question. Yeah. So, Yeah. So, Yeah. So, there's some space here. Let's occupy that. that. that. Yeah. that just feels more more down more down to earth, you know, that it lands actually for me. Makes sense. sense. sense. Okay. So, this walking through space and then and then again just in this in this basic open attitude of attitude of attitude of interest and exploration. And so I was doing that for a while and then and then and then again quite spontaneously just the thought came thought came thought came about lucid dreaming and it's something that's for lucid dreaming is when you're it's night it's sleep you're dreaming and there's the ability to be aware that you're dreaming as you're dreaming and then you can manipulate.

Well, that always interested me particularly because oh boy, I could do a lot of interesting things if I can manipulate my dreams. So, I've tried a couple of times, not not very systematically, but I got some books on it. Oh dear, I'd like to learn this. What was your goal? Rob a bank? Whatever. Fly into the air or you know, I could just You could do anything in a dream. You dream. You dream. You That might be your fantasy, right? Total projection. not even astral. astral.

astral. So I started playing with it very unsuccessfully. unsuccessfully. unsuccessfully. I never got very far with it. But anyway, this thought came, oh, lucid dreaming then, oh, what would be like just walking just walking just walking as if in a dream? One one of the phrases in these books on the dreaming suggested to use as a way of cultivating the ability was as you go through the day just to repeatedly ask the question am I dreaming just to kind of get more familiar with the interplay of dream state in the way.

So then that's all came to mind. Oh, maybe let me just play. I'm walking in a dream. So, from walking through space, walking in a dream. What was interesting was the shift of perspective, which is a little hard to describe in terms of what the shift was, but but but it was the beginning of having the frame be the mind rather than physical space. physical space. physical space. Right? If I okay if I'm I'm just walking in a dream. So it's the dream state which became the frame and I could just experience myself whatever that experience was of walking walking through a dream walking in a dream.

dream. dream. And then the third one was where I saw where this was leading. I just ended up with I'm just walking through the mind. And again, that was a very different feeling than walking through space. And I'm not suggesting any of these necessarily have any profound philosophic meaning. Although maybe they do and I'm not even aware of. For me, they were just different interesting experiences that one can have as we change our perspective. perspective. perspective. that the particular perspective we bring to what's happening in one way or another is limiting is limiting is limiting because it's highlighting one perspective perspective perspective over the potential of many different perspectives one could take.

So just by playing in this way it shows that our usual perception for example of the body our usual perception which you know as you said often it's our most basic identification yeah this is who I am I'm the body and we have a quite a fixed notion of what that means so playing in this way it just it oh no the the same experience of walking can be experienced very differently depending on the framework we're using. First of just starting there is a body and then oh walking through space, walking in a dream, walking through the mind and each one had a very different flavor.

that our perceptions are always conditioned by the framework that we're bringing to the experience. So it loosens things up a little bit. And And And by extension then this can really start to we might say unpack or explore the very notion of self and as we've said you know a very strong sense of it is identification with the body but it's also identification with thoughts or emotions. that the whole sense of self and the very central and profound teaching of non cell in the Buddhist teachings, we can begin to explore just what that means means means and begin to loosen some of the identification we have whether it's with the body or with thoughts or with emotions.

emotions. emotions. or even with awareness itself because that identification also creates a strong sense of self. By playing with these different perspectives, we loosen up our attachment to any one of them. See, no, these are just different these are just different angles on things. And so the core notion of a stable substantial self begins to dissolve a bit and we realize our experience our experience our experience is always in flux and flow and morphs from one perspective into another. So this is just one help in loosening our attachment to the concept or strong view of a fixed self, fixed eye that's at the center of everything.

everything. everything. So would it be safe to say that this discussion around whether the self is quote unquote real or not? That's a whole long discussion. We'll probably do it on another podcast, but for now, the thing to know is that there are very practical and healing aspects of just learning to call this subconscious sense of a solid self into question because we so often have a thought or an emotion and we think it's ours. ours. ours. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it feels monolithic and personally monogrammed and and non-negotiable and inevitable.

But doing these exercises, as weird as they may sound, walking through the mind, walking through space, can jar you out of this habitual way of being so that the next time you get angry, you might notice, oh, well, whose anger is this? And do I need to follow its shitty instructions? Yes. Yes. Perfect. Then, but I like the phrase, you just said something which I really like. I can't remember the whole phrase. A monogramming. monogramming. monogramming. What did you say? Personally monograph. Yeah. Monolithic and personally monogram.

monogram. monogram. Yeah. I love that. Like with all our experience, we personally monogram each one. That's great. I'm going to steal back from you. Wait, so you're saying that one of my phrases can make it into this book? Yes. Yes. I like it. I I like it. All right. I'll make a note of that one. Yeah. No, that's a good one. Coming up, we'll talk a little bit more about Joseph's phrases for walking meditation. And then you will hear about a a humiliating and very funny video that my son made imitating me.

I want to make sure that we're working off the same list of walking phrases because because because I have four and you have three. You listed before walking through space, walking in a dream, and walking through the mind. But I have one that goes before any of those which is sensations moving through space. But that that one was a result of the other phrase there is a body. Yes. But it's still a phrase. I I in my walking meditation will often just note sensations moving. sensations moving.

sensations moving. Yeah. So I think one once one has the experience of that through the phrase there is a body or not you know maybe some people just connect sensation in space right away but I found as a setup for that experience the phrase there is a body as one is walking yes yes yes just leads one right into that experience. experience. experience. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. No. So then then you don't have to go through the whole just the shorthand sensations in space works well.

You think that's a shorthand for the other for for there is a body and it's a shorthand. It's a it's just a direct way of getting to the experience without having to set it up to get to the experience. the experience. the experience. I mean everybody's mind is different and I'm and we talked about this earlier with whatever works. Everybody's mind is different and it's totally fine listener for one or many of these instructions not to land for you right now. Consider it a a seed planted that may flower in unusual and interesting and helpful ways later.

later. later. But so every every meditator is and every mind is different and it's and they're all constantly changing. Uh, but for me, sensations moving through space puts the sense of a self through a cheese grater. cheese grater. cheese grater. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, yes, Like, yes, Like, yes, I feel like I'm Dan walking. You know, side note, side note, side note, one of the most humiliating videos that my wife ever sent me is of our son when he was four marching around the apartment saying, "I'm important to him." him." him." And I just felt very seen and not in a good way.

Um, and so, but often as I'm walking around, it's I'm important and I'm more, you know, it's me, sensations moving through space. Yes. There's no one there. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so, I find that a nice setup for then the cascade of of of of walking through space, walking in a dream, walking through a mind. Yes. Yes. Yes. And again, I just want to say to the listener, and I think you would cosign on this, when I first heard of these sort of walking through space, walking through the mind, walking in a dream, I I I didn't know what to do.

Many of your ideas, I reflexively rejected for years, and then I finally started doing them. So, I I just want to say to you, whoever is listening right now, to you specifically, it's all good. Just take it in and see what happened. Yes. And I kept hanging in there with you even though you were ejecting my these pearls of wisdom. I know it's profane. I just want one one little please please please footnote too. I just want to say that those three walking through space the mind mind mind one is not going to find those instruction in Buddhist texts.

These are my own just creative play which I found helpful. Yeah. So, just a kind of disclaimer there. Unorthodox quite literally. So, I wouldn't want people to think, oh, well, I looked all through the discourses. I didn't see this anyways. Duly noted. Duly noted. Duly noted. Okay. So, let me ask you about a kind of very downto-earth very downto-earth very downto-earth if people are tired of the whole walking through the mind and walking through a dream thing. a very downto-earth problem that we meditators often have which is striving and constantly questioning am I doing it right how am I doing am I making progress and so you have a couple phrases on this that are really really helpful have been helpful for me I'm going to start with a term you use a lot which is the practice assessment tapes right right right in other words this are we running actually I'm going to shut up can you talk about what what you mean by practice assessment tapes this it is a very common tendency where we're continually continually continually assessing our practice how am I doing is this right I'm not doing well I am doing well whatever and the mind can really get caught up in this frequent evaluation evaluation evaluation of our practice as we're doing it so I can just give two examples of this one from my early childhood and one from from from more recent practice.

So the early childhood story, I don't know, I was eight or nine years old and I was planting my first and what turned out to be my last garden. But you know, I was a just a young kid and excited and you know, so I prepared the beds and I planted the seeds and and I was just, you know, a kid. I didn't didn't really know what I was doing. But anyway, I do all this preparation, water it, planted some carrots, and then, you know, over time, you know, you know, you know, they began to grow and the kind of the green and what you call the green tops of the carrots pushed through the earth and they were coming out and they were growing bigger and I just got so excited.

I would pull them out to see how the carrots were doing, you know, which obviously is not a great gardening technique, technique, technique, but it was like that. It was like, oh, how is it doing? How is it doing? So, that was my first experience of that tendency. tendency. tendency. More recently in meditation, this goes back quite a few years. I was in Burma for a couple of months and I was doing intensive uh meta practice, loving kindness practice. So that's what I was doing all day long.

And you know as the listeners may know one way of practicing this is by the repetition of certain phrases. May you be happy, may peaceful what whatever phrases one you know selects. So I'm spending day after day. This was a couple of months of just repeating the phrases and I began to notice very often, oh, how am I doing? Am I feeling more meta? Am I not feeling more me? Is the loving kindness growing? Is it not growing? growing? growing? And of course, that just interrupted the momentum of the practice and letting it grow organically.

grow organically. grow organically. organic vegetables, organic meta is a good thing. Let's go organic. Letting letting the process unfold. So, it's just very helpful if people are noticing these practice assessment tapes where they're always evaluating evaluating evaluating how their practice is going. Just to practice becoming more cognizant of that. of that. of that. And if it really is a frequent arising in the mind to really become mindful of it arising so that one is not caught up by it and one can see it just okay this thought arising and letting it go.

Now it's not to say that kind of practice assessment is never useful because because because you know at different times we have talked about balancing right effort. So am I too tight? Am I too loose? So there are times when that that kind of assessment of assessment of assessment can just be a good check. Okay. Do I have to tighten things up a little bit? Do I have to loosen things? Relax a little bit more. So occasionally just taking a step stepping back a bit and seeing the quality of the mind as we're practicing can be helpful.

It's when the pattern becomes neurotic when we're just over and over again judging the practice, judging ourselves. That's when it's really not useful at all and a hindrance. How do you know when you've crossed the line between healthy assessment of how am I doing right now to neurotic? Two things come to mind. One is the frequency of every 5 minutes you're oh how am I doing if you if you're pulling up one carrot after another. So that could be an indic. It's just it's too frequent.

Like that kind of assessment intermittently intermittently intermittently could be helpful. And one would just have to experiment and see and see and see as we're doing this, rather than rather than judgment. judgment. judgment. So there's there's a different mindset involved involved involved and as I say frequency of it happening and noticing the quality of the mind with which it's done. You can tell pretty quickly this is getting more to the neurotic side. you know, just an old pattern. pattern. pattern. And going back to something we discussed over time, over time, over time, just asking the question, is it helpful?

We might find, yeah, at times it's really helpful and at times it's really unhelpful. And so that that would be an interesting thing to notice. Coming up, Joseph's antidote to the practice assessment tapes and a thorough explanation of the meaning of cowboy dharma. Okay. Well, now you've just brought us to another phrase. The first time I heard you use this phrase, actually you you used a slightly different word. I'll tell the story. My first meditation retreat, 2009, Spirit Rock Meditation Center on the West Coast. We're doing this interview at the sister center, the first center, the pre predecessor center, the insight meditation society.

But I met you on when you were out in California teaching California teaching California teaching and and and it was the second to last day I think. I'm amazed that you can remember this. Well, I wrote it down and this scene is in is in my first book. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, this is tattooed on the mind. You were saying something like you might notice we're almost done. So, we're on day nine of a 10-day retreat. You might notice your mind is returning to thoughts of things you need to do when you get home.

But you you said to try to let those go. Try not to follow that train. And I raised my hand from the back of the room and said, "But don't I, you know, if I miss my flight, that's a real thing." Like, so shouldn't I think about that? and you said on the 18th time you're running through all the horrible eventualities of missing your flight, maybe ask yourself the question, is this useful? You didn't say helpful, you said, is this useful? this useful? this useful? Yes.

Yes. Yes. And so what I think you're saying here is this question might be a good antidote to the practice assessment table. table. table. Yes. Yes. Yes. It would be very helpful, I think. And it generally it's it's a useful question, you know, because we can get so frequently lost just in endless thought loops about one thing or another and we think it's important that we keep thinking about it, but at a certain point, it shows how ridiculous the mind can be because clearly at a certain it is not useful at all.

So I think that is a really helpful question. I mean it's a helpful question in circumstances as you just indicated that span way beyond whether you're running to practice assessment tapes. Yes. Is this useful? Is great for garden variety daily anxiety. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. How much worrying should I be doing? And have I passed the point of diminished return? return? return? Yes. Yes. Yes. And what's interesting is how seductive certain patterns are like worry for example. example. example. You know, it's very common that the mind just starts worrying about potential eventualities of something or other other other and we can get really caught, you know, and be living in that field of worry and anxiety and fear and and worry is one of the classical five Buddhist hindrances.

So it's acknowledged as being a powerful and very seductive very seductive very seductive tendency in the mind. So in addition to bringing in the question is it useful to really highlight being mindful being mindful being mindful of the worry thoughts as they arise and naming just as they arise. first time. Oh, worry, worry. So that instead of being lost in it from the get-go, we become aware of it as another arising thought. And it may not be right as it arises, but to practice becoming mindful of it much earlier on.

So that's that's a little different and a a more immediate meditative approach to it. So we're not even going the 18 times thinking the same thing. We're just learning to recognize worry as a particular thought pattern and keeping an eye out for it. Because to the degree that we practice that then at those times when for whatever reason we are carried away for longer and we come back to well is this useful if we've already practiced recognizing and letting go of the worry pattern. pattern. pattern.

So then when we say is it useful it'll make it much easier. Okay, I let this go. So, these two levels of working with it work together. Okay, my mind is going a couple directions. directions. directions. One of them is a phrase that I think actually another of your phrases that I think might be helpful for anybody interested in doing what you just said, which is catching the worry before the 18th time. I'll come to that in a second. So that's a a sort of a more meditative technical question that I think could be supported with yet another of your phrases.

Before I get to that though, I think some think some think some warriors warriors warriors in the audience, warriors, not warriors. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So some worriers in the audience who think of worrying as their kind of warrior practice like I need to do this and I spent much of my life and still have some vestigial um feelings in this direction. I spent much of my life believing that as my father said the price of security is insecurity and the this is where this gets quite subtle in my opinion.

A certain amount of worrying or you might just say thinking carefully about the issues in your life does make sense. It's it very quickly crosses the line from what I sometimes call constructive anguish and useless rumination. And so what I find is that this question is this useful is like a thresher separating wheat from chaff and the wheat is a very small part of the plant. The rest is ch and so yes this land what I'm saying. Yes absolutely Yes absolutely Yes absolutely I think it's not the worry aspect that's useful.

that's useful. that's useful. I think it's the consideration of the situation situation situation and seeing what the wisest course of action is is useful. And the Dalai Lamus gave one teaching and it may come from some classical text I don't know but I remember reading where he's talking about the uselessness of worry and he said if you're in a situation situation situation that needs addressing and there's something you can do about it why worry? And if there's nothing you can do about it, why worry? You know, so the worry part is extra because the worry implies a kind of anxiety or fear perhaps or that's over and above just the bare facts of the situation.

Oh, I need to get to the plane on time. Okay, what do I have to do to get there on time? on time? on time? One could address the issue potentially without worry just with a sense of oh this is what I do and then you could even oh well what what would happen if kind of my taxi doesn't come on time well in that case I would do this and this you so I think the the mental quality of addressing the issue We get caught in worry when and commonly some like we all do it at different times but that there is another possibility of just assessing it in as clear a way as possible without that inner anxiety.

So we can think clearly and even get into contingency planning. Yes. Yes. Yes. Without having the kind of anxiety goggles on that color the whole thing. thing. thing. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Make it fraud. Yeah. Yeah. And to say that this would take some practice because the worry gene I think we all inherited it and so it's in there and common. So it again it's taking interest in just how the mind is working you know and beginning to to to parse out the different components of a particular situation and seeing what's needed or useful or helpful and what's not.

not. not. And when we can get into looking at our minds in this way, we begin to see that, oh yeah, maybe I could let go of some of the worry part and then just deal with the situation and with clarity. with clarity. with clarity. Okay. So, we've just been talking about how to deal with worry or anxiety in a free range way as you're moving through your life. But you also before were talking about a meditative approach to really tune up your mindfulness so you're catching the worry before you're on the 18th time of wondering how's my meditation practice or what's going to happen if I miss this flight etc etc.

And that brought to mind for me one of my most favorite Joseph phrases which is cowboy dharma. What does that mean? Yes. So again, I'll tell the background story to it. So this this is something that happened I don't know maybe quite a while ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. I was on a two-month self retreat with a couple of friends. We were had rented this really nice house at Cape Cod and it was beautiful and each of us were doing our own self retreat and and and that was a time in my life when I was having periodic back problems.

So as I was sitting I began to feel my back going just becoming really uncomfortable and feels like it was going out a little bit. So I thought, well, maybe I'll just go for a chiropractic adjustment, which outside of retreats, I had done, you know, intermittently when needed, and it always seemed to be really helpful. And so I thought, I'll just go get an adjustment, then practice will go smoother. smoother. smoother. So I did. It turns out, for whatever reason, I I have no idea why it happened because it was just kind of an ordinary adjustment that I've had many, many times before for whatever reason.

And it may have been because my energy system was so open because I had been practicing for a month already. That's the only explanation I can give for what happened, which was had this adjustment. And basically And basically And basically my body went into shock and froze. Oh, uh, uh, uh, it was terrible. It was just terrible. I knew something bad had just happened. So, I go back to where we were staying to the house. I can't express how terrible it was. I mean, it was just it's like my back had gotten locked into some really some really some really uncomfortable and painful situation.

There was still a month left of the retreat. So, I was trying to continue practicing in this way. But thought pattern that kept coming up as I was sitting with all this and thinking about what had happened and the condition I was then in. The thought that kept coming was Joseph, how could you have been so stupid as to go get an adjustment in the middle of a retreat? And because I was in the midst of the consequences of it, that thought felt completely justified. Yeah.

How can I have been so stupid? And then then then that thought would lead me down half an hour of rumination. This was like my anguish retreat. Anguish was the word that best expressed what I was going through. But that thought kept coming because I was in the middle of it, in the midst of it. Oh, how could I have been so stupid and then gone? So, it took me a couple of weeks, I think. Can't remember exactly now. It's been years ago, but I think it took me a while to realize that thought was taking me down this trail of anguish.

anguish. anguish. Because the thought was so seductive, because it was true, if I gave it any air time at all, I was gone. It so completely seduced me into believing and following and then ruminating. ruminating. ruminating. No airtime at all. So that's when I the thought came thought came thought came which I just named afterwards but cowboy Dharma in not giving it any air time at all. It's like I had a mental image of just taking my six shooter and shooting it out of the sky.

The first thought how can you can you can you no air time at all. It really worked. I mean it it was amazing. noticed that after some time that thought would come and I wouldn't give it air time and my mind settled back. I was still super uncomfortable and I knew I knew this was something big that I would have to deal with. But my mind basically just settled back into a more peaceful state state state and very interestingly I had a dream reflecting that shift powerful dream which I still remember it was just was just was just green hills and it's surrounding this pond or lake and there was this beautiful horse beautiful horse beautiful horse in the lake that in the dream it leapt out of the lake onto the green grass and sunlit hills hills hills and that's what it felt like my mind had leapt out of the murkiness of how could I've been so stupid into a more expansive open.

open. open. Okay, this is what happened. So, cowboy dharma is when there are certain patterns that just are so seductive to us, us, us, we cannot give it any air time at all. So, that's when take out your six shooter, shooter, shooter, shoot it out of the sky. and one and one and one necessary frame. necessary frame. necessary frame. It has to be done with a sense of humor. Otherwise, it's aversion. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. The image to me is a humorous image. And that's why it works.

But that component is really important because if we do it with a version, it's just feeding it. feeding it. feeding it. The six shooter needs to be a Nerf gun. You know, it just it can't be, you know, you're trying to get rid of this thing. It's like, no, no, I'm just I'm just being mindful. I'm just seeing it for what it is without being owned by it and and inhabiting the thought. Yeah. Well, it's a little more than that. I think there's more an active sense abandoning abandoning the thought.

the thought. the thought. So abandoning doesn't imply aversion. It implies implies implies not being caught in it. The abandoning is letting go of it in a way. So for that period of time, it's not there anymore. It's not it's not that we're just watching the thought from a more mindful place, which in a less seductive thought may work, work, work, but when it has that much of a hook, you really have to dissolve it in some way or abandon it in some way or have it disappear in some way.

But it can be done with wisdom rather than aversion. So it's not I hate you, I have to get rid of you. It's the wisdom mind. Oh, this is so seductive. If I stay caught in this, it's just going to carry me away. So there's that sense of letting it go, it go, it go, abandoning it in that way. Yeah. The image that comes to mind for me and this is maybe one generation below you and for sure every generation below me below me below me like a video game.

Yeah. No, exactly. Although I must confess and it's something that had been on my bucket list for a while but is no longer. I have never played a video game in my life, life, life, you know, and I'm 81 years old and I've never played a video game. And I used to think, well, I should just, you know, see what this whole world's about. But I've abandoned that. The next time you come stay with us, uh, I know an 11-year-old who's going to want to show you.

Okay. Well, that could be fun. Uh, yeah. I had an experience here. So, we're sitting in your living room, which is in your house, which is on the grounds of the Insight Meditation Society. And I've had a few meditation experiences here where the analogy I sometimes use is when I'm completely drowning in a thing. It's like I'm trying to water ski, but I'm actually like being dragged by my head by a motorboat through a lake. I'm the horse in the lake in this analogy. And then at some point, usually through cowboy dharma, some point I get up on the water skis and it's like, oh, it's such this word liberating or freedom is it's a loaded word, but I mean that it's really what it feels like.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. This thing has been tormenting me. This doubt about whether I'm practicing correctly or this I want to get out of this retreat because I want to go play video games with my son or whatever it is. whatever it is, it's been dogging me. And as soon as I can see it mindfully and abandon it, but you know, with extreme prejudice, friendly prejudice, friendly prejudice, friendly prejudice, you're not in it anymore. Massively. So, this notion of abandoning is kind of leading me to one last phrase.

You actually quickly mentioned this phrase at the top of our first episode in this series. So, at the top of the last episode we did together and it is dead end. Does that seem apppropo to you to talk about this phrase as a koda to this episode? episode? episode? Yes. So I at this goes back quite a few years in my practice, but I was going through a phase where there was just a lot of sensual desire and sensual fantasies just coming up. And of course of course of course on a certain level they're very pleasurable.

pleasurable. pleasurable. And so I was just getting caught up in them again and again. And I tried all my usual techniques. Not oh desire, desire, wanting, but nothing was nothing was unhooking me. unhooking me. unhooking me. And then at a certain point when I realized what my mind was doing, this fantasy or thoughts, images would come up and just take me down, take me on this journey for some period of time. was like walking down a long road and then I realized the road doesn't go any place.

It's a dead end because I'll spend all this time in this fantasy. It's not that the fantasy will be actualized. It doesn't go any place. It doesn't lead any place and then I just have to come back and pick up my practice again. So I started using the phrase dead end at the front end. So as soon as the desire first thought or image or fantasy would arise as soon as it came I would say oh dead end which was just a reminder to me that this does not go any place it doesn't lead anywhere and so it made it much easier to let go of it and then just to stay with my practice not to be seduced by it and I found that dead end can be useful in meditation but also just in the rest of my life when I'm just I actually just to tell a story that involves you.

I went through a protracted business divorce as you know um and I called you a lot to whine during this period of time and at one point you recommended to me you know the next time you're thinking about all this just dead end. It's a dead end. There's nothing more to think about. You've thought this all the way through 75 times. Dead end. It's a firm but gentle and even a little loving and humorous hand in the air as if you're stopping a car that's going to hit a kid or something like that.

You're like, "No, "No, "No, right. right. right. Halt." Halt." Halt." Yes. Yes. So, just Yeah. I think it can be incredibly useful and it points to kind of a larger principle or in practice. You know, so much of meditative language is about yes, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, open, open, open, be with basically saying yes to experience experience experience which is a central part of our practice. We want this quality of allowing and but it's equally it's equally it's equally helpful to have in one's toolbox a wise no which is just what you just said.

We see something that's coming up that is not useful. It's not going any place. And to be able to say no, I'm not going to do this. That no is as important in our practice as the wise yes. But it's not often talked about. I mean the Buddha referenced it very much. You know he talked a lot about abandoning unskillful unh wholesome mind states. It just reminds me analogy and I have no direct experience of this and you do but I think of you know raising kids and if you never said no to anything anything anything it'd be a little monster you know but the no is you can do the no if one is in the right mood you can do it without anger without it's a loving no.

no. no. Yeah. So that's that's the quality. A loving no. loving no. loving no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At certain times is really important and very effective. Yeah. There are actually there is a school of parenting that you never say no to a kid. But um you're just using different language because if the kid's stepping into traffic, you're going to pull them out lovingly hopefully without any anger. Although my son I used he used to really piss me off. off. off. I'm bad parent. This has been great.

Should we uh should we dead end this episode and uh Yes. Yes. Yes. go have some lunch? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you to Joseph. Just to say we recorded these episodes at his home which is uh right near the Insight Meditation Society in Barry, Massachusetts. And we did indeed uh go have lunch as soon as we finished uh the conversation. Lunch is always a good idea. You know what else is a good idea? joining our free 7-day New Year's meditation challenge led by Joseph himself.

It starts tomorrow. You can sign up by downloading my new app which is called 10% with Dan Harris. You can get the app by going to danh harris.com or just going to your friendly neighborhood app store. Uh when you download the app, you'll get a free 30-day trial which will cover the 7-day meditation challenge which again starts tomorrow. It's a try before you buy situation. The meditation challenge is amazing. And like I said, led by Joseph. It's an amazing onramp to Buddhist meditation. Come check it out.

Finally, thank you very, very much to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.