Body Language Expert: “People Won’t Like You If Do This!” | Vanessa Van Edwards

Key Takeaway

To build trust instantly, start every interaction with visible hands and a greeting gesture. Research shows successful pitches use hand waves or open palms from the start - this primitive signal tells others 'I can be trusted.' Your gestures carry 12.5x more information than words alone and help you speak more fluently with fewer pauses and bigger vocabulary.

Episode Overview

Behavioral researcher Vanessa Van Edwards breaks down the science of charisma, explaining how the perfect blend of warmth and competence creates magnetic presence. She shares research-backed techniques from analyzing 495 Shark Tank pitches, revealing how hand gestures, space zones, and facial cues can make or break first impressions and deals.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Body Language Expert: “People Won’t Like You If Do This!” | Vanessa Van Edwards from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

To be highly charismatic, to be compelling, to be captivating, you must have a perfect blend of warmth and competence. All people problems stem from an imbalance between your warmth and competence. and competence. and competence. Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral researcher, a best-selling author, a leading voice in body language, presence, and communication. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people. M your words have power.

Your cues have power. Don't waste them. We can change someone's physiology with a single word. Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism? This is my biggest fear with this book. This is my single biggest fear is I'll be honest. You can use this book for is it better to smile without teeth or with teeth in order to enroll people in you as a human being to get anything you want in your life? What research found is that a real smile whether it shows teeth or not the only the biggest difference is it has to reach up here the eyes the eyes the eyes the the upper cheek muscles actually so those eye crinkles.

Yeah. I do that a lot though. I feel like I squint a lot when Yeah. Yeah. Hey, got you got a little smising, right? So, that's actually the only cue we're looking for. So, it actually does not matter. So, if you have a profile picture, a dating profile picture, a LinkedIn profile picture, I either want you neutral or with eye crinkles. The worst is sort of that in between. Now, I don't mind like a soft up mouth, right? So, you and I both have this on our book covers, a soft up mouth, but it has to engage those upper cheek muscles.

What Dr. Barbara Wild found is that when they showed pictures of people with the fake smile and a real smile, the real smile was contagious. So when people looked at the real smile, they themselves felt happier. happier. happier. When they looked at the fake smile, they felt no mood change. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. So the reason why that's important is I think that we think about like, oh, I want to show up. I want to be really my most confident self. But what we don't realize is that our cues are contagious.

Yes. that if you show authentic happiness, you are more likely to infect happiness. Actually, there's one more face cue I want to talk about. So, um this is the cue that sort of started me on this crazy journey and it got me I'm a recovering awkward person as you know. So, this gave me a lot of relief. Introvert, awkward person, social anxiety, all the good things. So, so this story gave me so much relief. What they found was if you are in a room and someone gives you a cue of social rejection, what does that look like?

Okay, so social rejection I roll us a sigh looking away. looking away. looking away. Looking right. Looking away. Distancing behavior when we pull our head back and like uh when I angle my head back, you know I've just disengaged from you. Crossing arms and crossing arms. Uh sudden sudden non-verbal rejection. non-verbal rejection. non-verbal rejection. It's just turning feet. Also turning Yes, we Oh, we can talk about feet. Okay, we can talk about feet. Hands and feet. So, you know what's interesting? I look at the hands and feet all the time.

I can't remember if I got this from you years ago. It's like looking at the hands and seeing are they in the pocket? Are they out of the pocket? Yes. Yes. Yes. But go ahead. We'll go back. Okay. So, social rejection cues and you know this if you're in a business meeting and you suddenly feel like am I disliked? H he's not he doesn't like this. She doesn't like this. When we see a cue of social rejection, our field of vision increases. We see wider. We literally see wider.

Our pupils dilate. So, we see more. The reason why that study was like a light bulb for me was our cues are affecting others physiology. Our physiology can change in a room in an instant. If we walk into a meeting and we feel not liked, if we feel rejected, if we feel like we're being judged, our own physiology responds. So, if we're in a room and we're not feeling confident or control and someone sends us a cue of rejection, one, you want to know what those are because it makes your field of vision bigger.

So, you can see who else is sending me a cue? What's my escape route? That's literally what your body is trying to do. Ups your adrenaline, ups your cortisol, and no one can think well. Adrenaline, cortisol. That's why in a meeting, it can go downhill so quickly. You're in a presentation, you prepared all week. You're like, You're like, You're like, and then you're like, "Oh, he just rolled his eyes. Oh, she just turned away. Oh, the I just saw a weird foot movement." Uh, and then you lose your spot, you blank out, and the rest of the pressation goes badly.

The good news is is what Matthew Lieberman found. This is from UCLA. Once you label a cue, so if you say that was an eye roll, that was a scoff of exasperation, that was a contempt smirk, the moment you label it, your amydala calms down. They've proven that if they when people are in fMRI machines and they show them a fearful face, so fearful face is when we widen the whites of our eyes and we raise our eyebrows up. If if you're laying in an fMRI machine and you see fear, you will begin to feel afraid.

Your amydala begins to activate and your body goes, "Well, if he's afraid, I better be afraid." But the moment you say in the M in the fMRI that's just fear, your amigdala stops responding. responding. responding. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. So I think I have had a really hard time finding confidence. It's been a long lifetime journey. The way that I've sort of backdoored into confidence is control. If I can control the cues that are being sent to me, if I can control the cues I'm sending to others, it's a secret backdoor into confidence.

How do you control someone else's cues? you label them and respond appropriately. So, appropriately. So, appropriately. So, so you can't control how they act towards you, but you can control how you react to it, how you interpret it, how you transition afterwards. Yes. Like you can first by labeling it, you just controlled your own physiology. So if someone sends you a contempt, an eye roll, you just took control, you took control back of nope, I see it, I spot it, I'm disengaging it. you know in the vulnerability world when you you know label the shame when you speak about the shame and you bring it to the light it becomes less scary it doesn't stay stuck inside of you so even just acknowledging it is a helpful tool to process shame or I guess social rejection social rejection ah it's the same actually so for vulnerability yes you're afraid you acknowledge it makes it less scary it's the same thing in social settings dates professional situations negotiates interviews the moment you say okay I just heard an exasperated tone of voice or I just saw a lid flex.

That's the one I want to talk about next. What? I know. I know. A lid flex. Is that an eyelid? Yes, it is. Like a like a like a like a twitch or what? what? what? Okay, so here you asked. How do we control? Oh, yeah. That's it. You just did it. Okay. So, you know Zoolander? Yes. Yes. Yes. You know the blue steel? Okay. That is actually a lid flex, right? So, that's a Right. It's like a It's if you if you're listening around harden your lower lids and then like your lips, that's what Blue Steel is.

The funny thing about this Q, it's ridiculous. I know you're like, "Where are you going to this person?" person?" person?" No, it makes sense to me cuz it's like, "Prove me. You're like someone's doubting you." doubting you." doubting you." Oh, you just got it. Okay. So, what's funny is in fear, our eyes widen. So, if you widen your eyes as wide as possible, so you can see the whites. You just I can take in way more of my environment. When we're afraid, we want to see as much as possible.

When we are trying to see details, see details, see details, universally across cultures, we have to lessen the light coming into our eyes. So, we squint the focus. the focus. the focus. We focus. So if you like if you were to try to see that dot over there on the wall, you harden your lower lids. And that is because scientifically proven when we harden our lower lids, it reduces the amount of light and we can see more details. So I can see the details on that camera better when I lower lid flex.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is why if you open People magazines sexiest man alive on almost every page along with a flexed bicep are flexed lids. And that is because women find a flexed lid. Oh, so attractive when they when they when they so attractive. so attractive. so attractive. So an open lid is not sexy. Is it sexy? A flex lit is. Yes. Because why women and men both want partners who are deeply scrutinizing, who are deeply looking at them. So if I'm sitting and talking to you and I go, "Oh, really?

"Oh, really? "Oh, really? I just showed you, wow, that was super interesting." In fact, when we flex our lids, we're going from just listening to thinking deeply. thinking deeply. thinking deeply. Interesting. We're literally trying to see something better. So if you're in a negotiation or on a date or with a friend and they go, "Really?" And they harden their lower lids, you are like, "Ding, ding. I just hit something good." And so the other way that we control cues is, okay, let's say that you're, and this actually happened to me.

So this is a story I share in the book. I was in a meeting with a very high-powered exec team. And if the if the presentation went well, they were going to invite me back for more presentations. So the stakes were very high. And it was a small group. And I was in a particular part of my presentation talking about chemicals. And I noticed an executive across the room fluxed his lower lids at me, kind of fluxed his lower lids. He's looking at the slide and I was like, "Okay, what's happening?" He just went from listening to scrutinizing.

And so I paused with small group and I said, "All good. Any questions?" And I literally looked right at him and I opened up my palms and I said, "Any questions?" So this is the universal signal for openness. It literally means I want to receive. receive. receive. I'll share anything you want. Yes. It's it's literally like, "Let me receive. Let me be open to you." He went, "Yeah, you know, I do have a question." And at the time I was teaching about oxytocin, oxytocin, I know you talk about it a lot on the show, the chemical of connection and bonding.

bonding. bonding. He goes, "I don't understand something. Isn't oxytocin what they give women to induce labor." And I'm like, "You are right, sir. They do give oxytocin, and that's because it's so powerful that it can induce labor." Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. But in our position, it's for social bonding. It was such a good teaching moment because he immediately felt heard. And I know that if I hadn't addressed that concern right then and there, I would have lost him. He would have been like, "What?" He would have been stuck on that one slide.

And afterwards, he said to me, you know, I really feel like you were teaching to us. us. us. Literally teaching to him. And so I think the other way that we can control the cues is we spot it and then we say, "How can I honor it?" Like that's the gift that we can give people is I can be sitting with someone and say I want to listen to you so deeply. I want to listen to your words. I want to watch your facial expressions. I want to listen to your I want to even listen to your voice tone.

I mean we haven't even talked about vocal power which here is incredibly important. And not only do I want to spot that, I want to respond in the way that you may you feel the most heard by me. So it's spotting and honoring. And by doing that, if you're in a presentation, whether you actually acknowledge the person or not, are you just saying that it'll bring you back to a more centered place so you can continue on the presentation? Exactly. It makes you feel in control of the narrative.

It makes you feel in control of and like even for introverts, right? Like introverts, it's much harder for us to share a lot of verbal content. So for us, I want to give you more control over the non-verbal so that when you do speak, it's more powerful, right? So, if you're an introvert and you want to make sure you are reading the room really quickly, so you know exactly when to say your point so it's most heard and most valued, that gives you confidence because you're not guessing.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't like the guesswork. No, I don't either. I know I know I know you see a lot of these videos online talking about talking about talking about how charismatic someone is based on the way they smile, their eyes, they the tilt of the chin or all these different things. Is it important to be charismatic? Let's talk about that first. Is it valuable and more important to be charismatic versus less charismatic charismatic charismatic less less less to the point? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To the point or neutral energy.

I mean, what's more valuable in society in accomplishing goals and getting what you want? want? want? Very charismatic or neutral? Neutral. Okay. So, this is the biggest mistake I think facing really, really smart people. smart people. smart people. I think really, really smart people, and this is most of my students, they're like off the charts, smart, creative, brilliant. They make the mistake of thinking if I have enough book smarts, if I have enough technology smarts, I don't need the people smarts. Now, here's what research from Princeton University found out.

I'm so excited for this cuz I already know what's going where you're saying it since. Yeah. since. Yeah. since. Yeah. Okay. So, this study completely changed my work and changed my life. It was done by Dr. Susan Fisk in 2002 and since then they've been able to replicate it and build on it. So, this is build on it and build on it. So, this is very solid research. what she found very highly charismatic people have to have the perfect blend of two traits and this is where it's really this is why highly charismatic people are so unique and this is why we love them so much to be highly charismatic to be compelling to be captivating you must have a perfect blend of warmth and competence and we talked about this the very very first time we met but since then so much more has come out about it very very smart people make the mistake of showing up as all competent.

They try to blow you away with their numbers and their facts and their stats and their data, but they're seen as cold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're seen as intimidating. On the other side, you have people who are highly warm. They have competence, but there's not a balance. They show up as highly likable, highly friendly, but they're interrupted. They're told that they're not being taken seriously. They're not credible, right? They're people forget having met them before. them before. them before. And so, I think that most people problems, I'm even going to say all people problems.

I mean because all people problems stem from an imbalance between your warmth and competence. And so not only do I think that charisma is essential for being successful, I actually think it's the only way that people will be open to your competence. So you could be all the books smarts in the world. You could have the highest IQ and remember everything on any test or you could be an encyclopedia of wisdom and information. But what I'm hearing you say, if you don't have charisma, at least some of it, then people won't take you seriously or they won't care as much or they won't be as engaged.

engaged. engaged. It's not just engaged. There's two questions that humans ask themselves about the person they're with. And this happens immediately in every interaction. By the way, video, too, we forget that this is not just in person. This is happening the moment you pop on video. It's happening the moment someone opens your LinkedIn profile. I did a whole bunch of research on LinkedIn profiles specifically because that's where a lot of our first impressions happen. Okay, happen. Okay, happen. Okay, when people see your LinkedIn profile, when people see you on video on Zoom, the first question they ask themselves, and it is chronological, the first question they ask is, "Can I trust you?" Basic instinct, are you going to be my ally or my enemy?

Can I trust you? The very second question they ask is, "Can I rely on you?" So when you're in a meeting, on a date, in a call, in a pitch, a negotiation on LinkedIn, the two signals that you want to cue people with as quickly as possible is yes, you can trust me, and yes, you can rely on me. The problem is is that most professionals right now are going mute. So, I don't know if you've noticed this, but it feels like in the last 5 or 10 years, we've gone towards ambivalence.

You know, we've gone towards I'm not going to show anything. I'm going to be as professional and sterile as possible. taken out from all these assets and then people have a really hard time. They have a really hard time listening to us. We wonder why people are slow to reply to our emails. It's because we're not queuing enough. We have to have hundreds of cues to feel to answer those two questions. Interesting. So, how do we create more trust and reliability instantly? Yes. Okay. So, here let's talk about trust first because it is chronological.

We have to trust someone to rely on them. That's why starting with your competence competence competence doesn't always work. So trust. So the very first thing, it's a weird one. It's a really weird one that I'm going to talk about first. So you don't have to be competent to be trusted. trusted. trusted. To be charismatic, you have to be competent and trustworthy. Okay? Okay? Okay? Right? So we want that perfect balance, right? You're trying you're smart enough and you're warm and likable. likable. likable. Okay? So like let's look at this cover.

So really really successful book covers just like really successful LinkedIn profile pictures very quickly signal both trust and competence, right? They both signal both these at the same time. Okay. So, um, let's talk about the first one, which is space. Space zones. Okay. So, sorry, I'll give it back to you. I took it away. Space zones. Space zones. Space zones. Space zone. We're going to talk about space. We're going to talk about the distance between people. So, the distance between my nose and the camera lens.

You can't see it, but in this photo shoot, I made sure that the distance between my space and the camera lens was a certain space. How far? How far? How far? So, I wanted to be in what's called the social zone. Okay. So, this is not made up by me. This is actually uh research is based. There's four zones for people. The intimate zone, the personal zone, the social zone, the public zone. Remember that um Seinfeld episode if you ever saw of close talking? You ever had this where someone walks up like right into your face and like Yes.

Yes. Yes. talks into your mouth. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Okay. So, that's called close talking. And that is the first big rule. Intimate zone. Intimate zone. You don't want to be there. You don't want to be there unless you're about to get intimate or unless you like you're friends or you know each other and you're like that's what you do. Do you talk 6 in away from your friends? That's too close. No, no. That's like your girlfriend. Yes. You're your partner. I got you. Okay. Okay. So, here's what happens.

This is intimate zone. 6 in 0 to 18 in apart is intimate zone. Okay. So, here's what happens. This is the biggest mistake I'm seeing right now is we are all on video call all the time. Taking photos like this selfie like what does that do when you're projecting a video or a photo of that close? It is literally saying I want to get close really really fast. And so if you have someone who's super high warmth, they're like, "Yes, vulnerability, intimacy, and you're going to attract those kind of people." But if you have someone who's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, take a minute." They are they are turned off.

So what's happening is on video calls, you hop on FaceTime, you hop on video on Zoom, and people are like right up in their camera. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Their their nose and their camera are are 10 in apart. And so someone's like, "Wo, like, "Wo, like, "Wo, it's too close." Yeah, it's too close. So that's the first one is you want to respect the space zones. the the sweet spot is a foot and a half to three or four feet away. That's that's that social zone.

That's where we're making eye contact. If I wanted to reach out and high-five you, I could. We're still respecting each other's space. So, for those one is when you're on video in your photos. That if you want to have that balance, you want to be 18 in to about 3 or 4 feet away. Okay. Social zone is 18 to 3T. Mhm. Yeah. And the personal zone, by the way, is still good, but that's a little bit farther away. Right. So that's you're just starting to get to know each other.

When you see someone across the room or boardroom or a networking event, they're usually about um four to seven feet away, which is the next zone, which is the personal zone. And then you have the public zone, which is obviously from far away. What we like in human behavior is we like someone to come towards us slowly. That's one of the reasons I think we're so burnt out on video. You know, we we have these backto backtoback video calls and we wonder, why are we so tired?

I'm not even in person. person. person. The reason is because it's queuing us in ways that are not natural. In person, I walk into a room, right? Like I walked into the office today and you were waiting. I was like, "Hi." And we and we hugged. That was the per That's the way humans like, right? It's like this from public. public. public. It's not like you open the door and I'm right there standing in your face. That would have been a lot. I was a few feet back.

Few feet back. It was perfect. Right. So, like that that's natural. But on video, it's like whoop, we're here. And that's why we can get so fatigued is because the cues are unnatural. Which actually leads me to the second kind of trust cue that's important. Yes. Yes. Yes. Is when we can't see someone's hands, our brain has a really hard time trusting someone. trusting someone. trusting someone. So funny. I think ever since that interview, I'm always keeping my hands out. out. out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I was keeping my hands in before, but I think I'm just more aware of it when I'm walking by someone who might be a stranger.

I just have my hands out and relaxed and loose, but my, you know, I'm not like tight or tense and I'm not like hiding them or anything. It's just, yeah, just walking normal. Say, "Hey, how's it going?" You know, I'll even do like a little wave. Yeah. Just a show that's super charismatic. Hey, good to see you. You know that's it. That's it. So when we So I love Shark Tank. Do you know that show? Okay. I know you had I love Friday nights. Shark Tank.

Shark Tank. So I wanted to know watching Shark Tank, was there patterns between the least successful pitches? Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. And the most successful pitches. This is cool. Okay. So my team I love my team. Thank you to my team. Not not on just based on like what people said, but how they said everything. Everything. So we analyzed 495 shark pitches. Yeah. What were the main things you you saw from those successful and those not? Okay, so thank you to Jose Pena for this research. 495 Shark Tank pitches, literally hundreds of hours of Shark Tank coding every variable we could think of.

Entrance, first impression, verbal, eye contact, smiling, interactivity, math deal. I mean, we were looking at everything. Holy cow. Holy cow. Holy cow. Okay. One of the biggest differences between the least successful pitches and the most successful pitches was what you just did. just did. just did. Hands, Hands, Hands, right? So, when you walk down that Shark Tank hallway, that is beautiful, right? That's that's exactly what we're talking about, space, right? Public to personal to social to intimate. So, it's a nice warm-up. The best pictures when they were all the way in the public zone signaled, "Hey, Sharks.

No way." No way." No way." And they'd walk into the room, they'd take their place in the carpet, and they'd go, "Good morning, Sharks." Or, "Hey, Kevin. Mark, we'd love to have a deal with you." They would greet with some kind of hand gesture. The least successful pitchers walked in with I think they thought they were being humble but it actually reduced trust. They hid their hands either in fists behind their backs in their pockets or holding a prop. Sometimes accidentally they hid their hands and they didn't hand greet.

That makes it really hard for someone to say I can trust you. And that is a primitive part of our brain that when we can't see someone's hands like if I were to, you know, do this entire interview with my hands behind my back. back. back. What's she doing back? What's she doing? what are her hands doing? And what's interesting is um Susan Goldwin Meadow researches gesture. She spent her entire academic career researching gesture researching gesture researching gesture and she found that gestures carry more weight than words.

So if a pitcher, a Shark Tank pitcher were to go on and say, "Today I have a really big idea. It's really big." And I hold my hands up like, "It's really big. It's really small." You're like, "No, wait. It looks small, Vanessa. Looks so small. It's not big at all." But if I were to say I have three three big ideas and hold up five, you're actually more likely to bleed my fingers. fingers. fingers. So the reason why this is important is because gestures help lower cognitive load.

load. load. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. When I use gesture, I'm more fluent. I'm able to be more competent. I'm able to underline my words. I'm able to say, "This is a really important point. Can I give it to you?" Hand gestures, body gestures, facial gestures, hand gestures. Hand gestures. Hand gestures specifically specifically specifically are key. are key. are key. They are like our body language highlighter. That's how I want you to think about them. What happens if we don't what's ah I'm just kind of socially awkward.

I like keeping my hands down the whole time when I'm communicating. What happens if we don't use our hand gestures at all in a conversation, in a pitch, whatever. You know, You know, You know, two things. One is it's harder for you to process. They've literally found speaking it's harder to process. Correct. it's going to be harder for you to get your confidence because gestures are a way that we underline or highlight our words. And so if you are inhibiting your own gestures, you will have a hard time explaining things.

They actually did a study where they had people explain two versions of a story. Notice two two versions of the story. One they could use their hands and one they couldn't. couldn't. couldn't. The one where they could use their hands, they had less pauses. They spoke more quickly. They used bigger words. Wow. Wow. Wow. Where they just couldn't just their hands were just underneath their legs. You know what's interesting? I was just reading some intros for the podcast right before you came in. And I had another interview this morning and I did podcast intros and ads and I use my hands in order to do it cuz I feel like it's coming across as like I'm really engaging.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And I remember when I was reading my first audio book, The School of Greatness, Greatness, Greatness, I tried to read it like just kind of like with my hands down for a while and I was like, I can't read. Like I've forgotten how to read my own words. being like dyslexic growing up anyways is I'm a little slower when I read in general but when I started to be like okay I just need to get in this with my body my hands I felt more confident I felt like I could flow I wasn't messing up as much I wasn't having to stop and restart as much it was powerful you yes okay that's an incredible story about gesture because if you watch the best uh like cartoon voiceover folks they are using animated right yes they are using their whole bodies they're in a room by themselves like recording on a on a mic right but they're like they're like they're like Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. We just did the same thing. Yes. Yeah. That's what they're doing. That's not how I read my audio book. Yeah. But like Susan Goldwin Meadows research is called hearing gesture. gesture. gesture. And that is because I am using my hands right now. Not only people watching but also for my folks who are listening because I know that the more I use my gestures, the more charisma I have vocally. And I would love to talk about vocal charisma. vocal charisma. vocal charisma. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting.

So that helps me, but it also helps you. So anyone who's watching, you're getting so much information. They say 12.5 times more information from our gestures. Yes. gestures. Yes. gestures. Yes. Even when you can't see it. Uh, no. You have to be able to see it. So you we can hear charisma, but if someone can see our gestures, it adds more weight to what I'm saying. So when I say weight, I'm like, it's heavy. Look how heavy that is. Right. But if I were to be like heavy, it's so heavy.

And I I kind of show it away. You're like, no, it's not heavy. Feel the emphasis of the words. Yes. So it's like a highlighter. Now, I have to have a caveat here cuz I've created a problem in the past. Yes, Yes, Yes, I love a gesture, but I don't like jazz hands, hands, hands, right? right? right? So, gestures are great. Hey, good to see you. Hey, Louis. You're like, "This is not credible or trustworthy." You're like, "This is some weirdo over here." I I created a problem where I had people who were like entering their Zoom meetings and they were like, "Hello, Vanessa." And I was like, "Oh, no.

Don't do that. do that. do that. Oh, no. No." So, it's like a highlighter, right? You wouldn't want to highlight the whole page. You just want to highlight the concepts that matter. So, let's go back to hands for a second because you said there were 400 videos I think you guys researched on Shark Tank. 495 pitches 495 pitches 495 pitches and one of the main factors was waving as you were walking in or as you were getting getting getting planting. Yes. planting. Yes. planting. Yes. Not all the way back like some of them did, did, did, but also once you sat there and said, "Hey, morning sharks." Yes.

Hey sharks. Good morning. Happy to be here. Even this happy to be here. Like an open palm gesture. Interesting. Okay. Okay. What are a few other things you notice? Okay. Yes. Okay. So, we love gestures. And by the way, this is super easy on a video call in person. Hey, nice to see you. Good morning. The biggest mistake we make, someone walks in and we go, "Hey," we give them a nod, right? Give them a hand. That you like them enough to give them a hand, right?

So, that's really easy. It's like every YouTube video I'm like, "Hey friends." That's literally how I start every video. Okay, that's the first thing. So, the second thing is where things get more interesting. So, remember that these sharks were in pitch after pitch after pitch. after pitch. after pitch. They're tired. They're like, "They're so tired. They are so tired. I've been on set there. I've seen like the whole day it's just like it's a lot. It's a grind. Okay, so the most successful pitches, the next thing we found, this was very, very clear, is that the more that the pitchers could spark dopamine, the more likely they were to get a deal.

Now, dopamine is a very complicated chemical. So, just for our purposes, food, food, food, eating something. No, giving them like, oh, try my Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. I was like, food. eating like taste testing like opening something. Taste it, smell it, lick it, touch it, feel it, wear it, play it, any of any of those senses we love. So when we are doing something that's different, that's tactile. So yeah, touch, smell, taste, wear, play, do, try, that was going to wake the sharks up. Dopamine is a little bit, it's a very complicated chemical, but I want to talk about a little differently.

It does feel good, right? So if if they were to say to the sharks, "Sharks, today I have a gift for you." The brain goes, "Oo, a gift, a gift, give gift, gift, a gift, a gift, a gift, give gift, gift." Right? Dopamine is like that feeling of, "I want it. I want it." It's it's a it's a excitement, but it's also motivation. So what they found is that when people have a lot of dopamine, they are more motivated to do things. They are more motivated to figure out a deal.

They are more motivated to ask questions. So when a pitcher went in and not only had some kind of an interactivity, some kind of a surprise for them and some of it sometimes it was a surprise and they would literally say, "And guess what sharks?" sharks?" sharks?" Like Like Like what? Right. What is it? We want to know what that is because we're like dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. So it's doesn't have to be like you don't have to walk in every meeting and hand out and like throw throw out Snickers bars, right?

right? right? Love a Snickers bar and that will work really well. That will work. It will work every time. But it's also verbal surprise. So, it's also saying, "Today I have something really special to share, right?" right?" right?" Anticipation. Anticipation. Anticipation. Anticipation. It doesn't even have to be something major. It can be throwing in those little elements of surprise that people can look forward to. And here's the the biggest one. So, this is research that uh blew my mind. It changed the way that I write emails.

So, if you write a lot of emails, this study is for you. So, I'm going to break it down. It's kind of a complicated study. So, here's what they did. So researchers had participants come into their lab and do like a a little quiz, like a little math test. One group of participants read a set of directions that was very simple. Please take the following quiz. Take your time. Use a pencil. Tell us when you're done. Very simple set of directions. The other participants got the same set of directions, but they sprinkled in a couple of achievementoriented words.

So achievement oriented words are words like win, succeed, master, greatness. Okay, those are achievementoriented words. There's a reason why this is so so powerful in the directions. They would say something like, "Please master all these questions. Uh take as much as much time as you can to win the right answer, right?" So they just sprinkled in a couple of these words, two or three of these words. They found that participants who had the achievementoriented words performed better. they actually got more answers correct. correct. correct. Interesting.

Interesting. Interesting. Now, this is incredible. If you're a manager or a boss or you're working with people and you want them to perform at their best, just a couple of word swaps can help set them up for success. The second thing they found is that it also doubled doubled participants desire to keep working. Now, this they could win, succeed, achieve any they were like they worked on it longer, they worked on it harder and they enjoyed it more. And the last one is is that reading achievementoriented words can change our own dopamine and testosterone.

testosterone. testosterone. That's fascinating. You know, it's interesting because for years in high school and college, I had all there was this store called Successions I think it was called. I don't know if you remember this. It was like a motivational inspirational store that had like I don't know poster of like an ego soaring with a quote, right? Or like my office office office like something was just like it was like Ted Lasso, you know, store. just like believe in yourself with like this. Where is the store?

I want it. Okay. I think it's called Successions. I can't I can't I can't remember the name of it. I don't even know if it's around anymore. But my dad bought me a lot of stuff and I had all this sports type of inspirational quotes and you know, you know, Rocky posters and all these things of just people achieving and it and I would stare in this like these walls and I be like, I want to be that. Let me go take the actions every morning to work a little bit harder to reach the goals.

And I was just consumed in a success, you know, word. You were literally Yeah, you were literally priming yourself with those cues. Another study, I promise I won't do too many more, they put a picture of an athlete winning a race on top of telemarketers scripts. telemarketers scripts. telemarketers scripts. The people who had the picture of the athlete winning, athlete winning, athlete winning, come on. come on. come on. Earned more money. Come on. Come on. Come on. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like just in front of them.

You're like literally a printed picture on their script. script. script. Oh wow. So why I share this is because we do not realize that we are queuing people incorrectly people incorrectly people incorrectly or we are missing opportunities in every single email that we send. So if you send an email out to your team on Monday morning, hey everyone, today is going to be a busy day. We have a lot of challenges. Let's make sure we're not late. M late. M late. M research has found that when people read words like busy, challenge, or late, it literally primes them to be busier and later and more challenged.

You are literally making it harder for them to help you. So, if instead you think about, and this is a challenge, I would love to, if you're brave enough to take it, open up your email sent folder and pull up five emails that you've sent to important people, people, people, boss, partner, colleague, whatever, client. I want you to print those emails and I want you to count the number of priming words you use, good or bad, and even more. Are they warm or are they competent?

So, this is where the next level happens. level happens. level happens. Oo, give it to me. Highly charismatic people. Prime others with warmth and competence. This is what I was going to say is one of the spark dopamine. A simple compliment or acknowledgement sparks dopamine from from my experience. Just by seeing someone and acknowledging something you appreciate about them or you like about them or great shoes or whatever it is, I'm ass sure you've got a great smile today, you've got good energy today, that sparks dopamine, right?

right? right? Oh, 100%. Actually, this leads me to my next my next third point, my Shark Tank point. We also noticed that when pitchers specifically acknowledge things from the sharks and specific sharks, they were more likely to get a deal from that shark. that shark. that shark. I really like this thing about you. You did did did I've been so looking forward to working with you, Robert. I love all your deals with all those athletes, Mark. I've been a huge fan of yours for years. Or this was this was the winning phrase in a pitch.

If we heard this phrase, it was a high likelihood that someone was going to get a deal, which is, "You remind me of myself." of myself." of myself." That could have been one of the sharks. That could have been one of the entrepreneurs. But the biggest compliment we can give someone is, "You remind me of me. You're my role model. I put you in." So, this is what we're talking about as kind of the next level here is I think that yes, I want you to be your most charismatic self.

I want everyone hopefully who's listening to be inspired to be their warmest, most competent self, competent self, competent self, but what a bigger gift. What a better way to be great to gift other people to be their warmest and most competent self. So that when you're sending an email and you say, "Hey, I'm introing Sarah or we have Sarah on the call or here's that quick email intro I promised to Sarah." No priming words. What if instead you thought, "What's the warmest and most competent thing about both Sarah and the person I'm introducing to?" And you say, "Hey, I'd love you to meet Sarah.

She's been leading our marketing team for 10 years. We are so lucky to have her. She's a gem. Lucky gem leader." That is the perfect balance of warmth and competence. And you are gifting that to both Sarah, the person you're turning to, and yourself. And so I think I think our words are gifts. And this doesn't have to be every email, but in your most important emails that you that audit that you send, count how many warm words are you using. So warm words are um words that uh trigger connection, trust, um words that make you feel the warm and fuzzies.

They're very oxytocin words. Count the number of competent words. Efficient, productive, brainstorm, leverage, lead, streamline. Those are all great competence words. Note, a funny note here is um emojis. Are they good or bad? Highly warm, Highly warm, Highly warm, right? right? right? Not good. Not good. Not good. Likabil, you can have liability, connection, connection, connection, right? High high warmth, right? So emojis and exclamation points count as one warm word. Wow. So if you have someone and this happens a lot where people send a highly warm email to an important person.

important person. important person. Hi friend. Friend warm word exclamation point. Two warm words. I loved talking to you yesterday. Three warm words. It was so exciting to catch up. Exciting catch up. Five warm words. Heart emoji. Heart smiley face. Now we're at seven warm words and we're one sentence in. Right. Right. Right. They wonder why they're not taken seriously. They're wonder they wonder why they didn't get a follow-up interview. They wonder why that person takes four days to reply. It's because it's too much warmth. You have to balance it out with the competence.

competence. competence. So, I want you to count and see what kind of signals are you sending to the people who matter to you. That's interesting. That's interesting. That's interesting. Do you want to? You know, you're you're bringing up something I used to do years ago when no one knew who I was. I was just getting started, 2007, 2008. I used LinkedIn as a tool to create connection with people that were, you know, successful business leaders and people that had done things that I wanted to do in the future, right?

right? right? And for a while, none of them would reply to me because I started off saying like, "Hey, I'm just getting started. I'm brand new and I'm looking for some advice. Can you help me?" Those types of Yeah. Warm, warm, warm, warm, warm languages, right? All those words you just said are all warm. Yeah. And I started switching it and getting a reply almost every time from anyone like anyone I'd reach out to I was like they're going to reply to this and I started doing uh a few things in the first sentence I was just trying to find you know spark dopamine essentially is what I was doing.

I was looking for a mutual connection we had and I'd speak about the mutual connection. Mutual connection is highly competent. It's saying you know this person I know them too. I'm in the know. Trust and warmth and competence. This person likes me. If you like them yeah trust yeah trust yeah trust perfect balance. Yeah. I didn't even know that and I was just doing it right and it was working. I was like, "Okay, let me keep doing this. Let me find someone that we know in common." And I would always try to have a conversation to get some intel on them.

Can you tell me something about so and so? And I would speak about that information. And I and I would speak into them. I would also look for a couple other areas of interest that we have in common. And I would try to have three different things in common in the first sentence or two. Wow. you know, something that they did that I'd experienced before or a place they're they're from or whatever. Some some mutual interest. Maybe that's competence. Maybe or that's both. Yeah, both. Yeah, both.

Yeah, it's beautifully both. Yeah. So, I would do that and then I would just add and then I would say something like I'm really inspired by what you created. I'd love to learn your story of success. success. success. Wait, say it again. Say it again. I'm really inspired by what you've created. I'd love to learn your story of success. Oh, man. That just gave me the chill. That's essentially what I did almost every email. That sentence, can we just like talk about? So that sentence is the perfect blend of warmth and competence, right?

You have love, you have learn, you have success. success. success. And so that didn't take a lot of words. It's not like you were writing them a six paragraph email, but it's so much better than let me know if you have any questions, right? right? right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or can I pick your brain for coffee? Exactly. You know, so I think what we have to do is there are hidden opportunities waiting for you in your texts, in your emails, in your profiles if you choose to take them.

And all it takes is a couple of word swaps. Like I'm not talking about 15 in that direction sheet. They sprinkled in like two or three words. Win. Even reading the word win makes the other person think more like a winner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What a gift to give. Yeah. That's cool. The the quote that I heard in high school from Roosevelt is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care saved my life literally because that's one incompetence right there because I didn't feel competent my entire school life right in school I was at the bottom of my class I just graded poorly which poorly which poorly which confirmed like I'm not smart enough like I'll never be able to be as intelligent as my classmates or anyone in the world so why would anyone like me or trust me because I didn't feel competent.

Then when I heard that quote, I go, I have a chance. Like I can build confidence in another area of life. I can be emotionally intelligent and I can show people how much I care. And by doing that, that's been pretty much my whole life. whole life. whole life. Everyone who's listening, I hope what this shows you is that caring about someone, there's multiple ways to do that. Yes, it's emotionally intelligent, but it's also honoring someone's cues or gifting them the right cues. Yes. When you make someone feel more like a winner, what a gift you just gave them.

them. them. Huge gift. You're putting confidence into them. You're speaking joy, confidence into that person. Yes. You're literally gifting them the chemical dopamine so they themselves have more motivation. And don't we all need more motivation? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um can I since you shared a vulnerability, can I share a vulnerability and a compliment? Sure. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, I've been so excited to tell you this. So, your book, School of Greatness, um I love the cover. I just thought it was so inspiring. And when I was taking my cover shoot for Captivate, uh, this is six years ago now.

It was not going well. I was super awkward. My my photographer, amazing, Maggie Kirkland, was like, "Listen, like, this isn't working. You're really awkward. I need you to relax." I can't relax, right? The worst thing you can do to someone who's anxious is tell them to relax. So, we weren't getting the shot. We weren't getting the pictures. And she's like, "Okay, just think about your role models. Who's your role model?" I was like, "Lewis House." So, she pulls up your book and she goes, "Okay." And she said, "Look at Louiswis." "Channel him." And so in the shoot, I chneled you and I I did your pose of my hands over my stomach with your face.

And crazily enough, that is the Captivate cover. Captivate cover. Captivate cover. I'm going to send you the How many books you sell? How many copies you get? you get? you get? Lot. I better I better send you some royalties. royalties. royalties. So anyway, I channeled you because that even that cue there was something about it. So, I I thank you for even the cues that you send out cuz that gifted me confidence we didn't even know about it. There you go. I appreciate it. I'm glad I'm glad it worked.

What's another thing that in the shark tank? We talked about sparking dopamine. sparking dopamine. sparking dopamine. What else? What else? What else? Okay, so we talked about greeting. We talked about dopamine. We talked about interactivity. We talked about um complimenting in a way that allows someone to see themselves in you or pulling out a similarity, right? So, like, you know, like you Lori, we really value um Mr. Wonderful. We love Mr. are wonderful products, right? Like that really helped. I mean, it sounds like sucking up, but actually it it really worked.

It really worked. The other thing that we noticed about the interactivity is what they would do is they would cross space zones. So, they would have something to give the sharks and they would go from the carpet to the chairs. chairs. chairs. That worked usually. That worked because they were going into intimate zone very quickly. So, this is called a non-verbal bridge. It's kind of an advanced technique. Do you want to talk about it? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, a non-verbal bridge is a way that we cross into someone's intimate space but safely.

So, what happens is when we're with someone, we want to connect with them. We want more oxytocin. We want to bond with them. But sometimes it can be hard to break that boundary. boundary. boundary. A non-verbal bridge is a way that we can create oxytocin with permission. So, that could be handing someone something. That could be giving a high five. That could be touching their elbow. And that is exactly what successful pitchers did. they would have a reason or an excuse to, "Hey, Lori, let me guide you up here.

Hey, Kevin, let me zip on this suit for you. Hey, um, you want to try this amazing uh, cinnamon roll?" And when they did that, they created these small little bridges. So, what I would think about is like, how can you create bridges to people where you're engaging them even physically, right? And that's harder on video, but in person, that was a thing that we found in the tank. How do you do it in a way that the person feels comfortable if you touch them on the elbow?

Cuz someone may not feel comfortable. So, you have to be really intuitive to, you know, is this person going to be receptive to me? Are they already interested enough where I can get closer? closer? closer? Yes. Are they leaning in? Are they giving eye contact? Are they nodding? Oh, I forgot another one that was really important. So, um, vocal power. So, we haven't really talked about vocal power. And this was a big one in the tank. So, we hear confidence, we hear competence. And the biggest way that we do this is with inflection.

So, inflection is uh the biggest mistake that we make is the question inflection. So the question inflection is when we go up at the end of our sentences, right? It's also called up talk. So if I were to were to were to don't do upt talk. Don't do upt talk. We're going to talk about why. So when we use the question reflection, it cues the other person's brain brain brain to know ah we're being asked a question. The problem is is that when we accidentally use the question inflection, it makes people question you.

Right? you. Right? you. Right? They really trust. Right? So, what happened is in this study where they looked at doctors, they found that the doctors who had uh so I'll break down the study. So, what they did is they asked doctors to record 10-second voice tone clips and they said like their name, their specialty where they worked. So, it sounded like, "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I work in oncology. I specialize in uh children's medicine." Something like that. They took the clips and they warbled the words so you couldn't understand the actual words being said.

So, it sounded like Right. Yeah. Then they asked people to rate these clips on warmth and competence. Right. Again, this research has been repeated over and over again. Imagine this for a second. You're asked to listen to a clip of gobbledygook. Yes. To see if they're competent. Are they smart? Are they more than you like them? Yeah. And people do it. What they found is the doctors who had the lowest warmth and competence ratings had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. That implies that we don't just sue doctors based on their skills.

We sue doctors based on our perception of their skills. And that happens within the first few seconds of hearing them. So your communication is everything. Everything. It's not just the words you're using. Are they warm? Are they competent? It's even how you're saying the words. the words. the words. So the very first story I break down in the book, and this is in the intro, so if you want to just look at the sample chapter, you could. I analyze Jamie Simonoff's pitch. Jamie Simonoff is the founder of Ring that didn't get any money.

Then it sold for a billion dollars. Yes. Here is a brilliant guy, right? Jamie Simmonoff is brilliant. He had a successful product, right? Ring is a very successful product. Amazon acquired it for over a billion with a B dollars. Yet he goes into the pitch in the Shark Tank and he pitches and he doesn't get a deal. Why? That pitch plagued me because I was like, "Here is a smart guy with a great idea, but his cues were the problem. The I think that he lost his pitch." And this is a really big a really big statement and if you listen to it, you'll hear it.

I think he lost the deal in the first 10 seconds of them hearing him. And the reason is he made the choice to close the doors to the tank. So in his pitch, he doesn't walk down the hallway. You don't see that long first impression. You don't get public to social to personal. He closed the doors and what he did is he went he knocked on the door of the shark and they're like they're like hello and he goes it's Jamie. So he asked his own name and when you're a shark and you're trying to make a very quick first impression of someone without seeing them and you hear the question inflection that's supposed to be used on a statement you immediately begin to question I don't know.

And that is also because we know that liars are more likely to use the question reflection. reflection. reflection. If you've ever played two truths and a lie. Have you ever played that game? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, two truths and a lie. Here's a little tip for everyone. If you ever play that game, people almost always ask the lie. So, they'll be like, "Oh, yeah. Two truths and a lie. Um, I uh have a goldfish. I am a vegetarian and I love dogs." dogs." dogs." They almost always go up on their lie.

And that's because we when we're lying, we don't know if you believe us. Mhm. So, subconsciously we give it away. So, Jamie starts his pitch and he doesn't have a first impression. He doesn't do any greeting in the hallway. He misses that whole walk up. The very first words out of his mouth, doesn't matter what he says ishuh, says ishuh, says ishuh, right up that up. And then Mark Cuban says, uh, are you here to pitch? And he says, here to pitch again using the question of flection.

I think that what happened was is it gave away his competence and then the doors open, right? and he explains this idea of ring. It's a doorbell. The problem is is his first impression was very low in competence. And so he had a lot of trouble having the sharks take him seriously. him seriously. him seriously. He was a very competent individual building his business, right? He was very smart, intelligent, knew the technology, how to build product, teams, all these things, get sales, whatever it was. was.

was. But the warmth wasn't there as well. It seems like, right, like the trustworthy, charisma, warmth, confidence. He undersignaled every step of the way. So he under that undersignal warmth. He undersigned competence and then was trying to dial up competence. And you hear in the rest of the pitch he's he's trying to build it back up. He's like, "Yes, like, "Yes, like, "Yes, but we've done this and look, we got this technology this technology this technology and this money and then this." And so he cannot get it back.

He could not get it back. And so I think I watched that pitch and I break it down in the book of what happened to this brilliant guy who had one bad day. And I think that if he had he, you know, he scripted those answers, he prepared for that pitch and he had really good verbal answers. There was even a couple times where I think this thing happens for people who overrehearse. So if you have an interview or a presentation, what do you do? You rehearse it, right?

You practice the perfect answer. That can get in your way though because if you practice the perfect answer, this is exactly what happened to Simoff. And very highly intelligent people do this. He would hear a question from a shark, usually a challenging question, because they were like really pushing him on the deal, and they didn't believe him. No one believed him. They all thought, "Oh no, it's too crowded of a market. It will never work." They literally said that to him, "Okay, I have ring on my front door." And they literally said, he could not even believe him because what would happen was they would ask him a question, he would start to answer it organically and then he would switch into his rehearsed answer.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So you would hear, "Oh, oh yeah, yeah, we do have market track. Our America traction has been wonderful. In fact, in the last five years, we've done X numbers and you would be like, "Who is this robot?" this robot?" this robot?" Yeah. Just say what's on your heart. Yeah. Yeah. Just say it organically, right? And so, I think um you can be the smartest person in the world, you can have the best ideas, but if you don't share them right, you're not helping people help you.

And so, that that's my it drives me crazy when smart people can't get their ideas heard. And that pitched crushed me. I felt so bad for him. And he made it. He's okay now. He's doing really well. Then he was like a guest shark or whatever. Yeah. whatever. Yeah. whatever. Yeah. Okay. And what's amazing is when you watch him walk into the tank as a shark, you can see the difference. You can feel the difference. the difference. the difference. The confidence. The confidence. The confidence. Oh my.

You know, he walks into the tank. He walks down the hallway, right? He walks down the hallway. He's smiling. He gestures. Hey everyone, good to see you. He shakes hands. He does all the things he didn't do in that original pitch. And um you can see the difference. And it hasn't he's the same person. Same person, same ideas, similar suits, yet he looks like a different person. person. person. Fascinating. It's not about what you say, it's how you say it. Um how you present yourself and your words.

Uh and your words your words your words and and just I'm curious about this. There's a big topic out there right now. I just did a recent interview with uh Dr. Romney who is a therapist psychologist talking about narcissism a lot today. Mhm. Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And how can you spot when someone is actually warm and caring and charismatic? charismatic? charismatic? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Versus someone who uses the skills or the tools of charisma in their narcissistic approach towards manipulating, controlling, and getting what they want in life.

So, this is my biggest fear with this book. This is my this is my single biggest fear and it uh was an issue for me when I first started writing it is I'll be honest you can use this book for manipulation. for manipulation. for manipulation. Yeah, of course. And that scares me. And when a smart person who's narcissistic is going to study everything and then start using it. It scares me. So how can you tell the difference? The subtle cues these are very subtle now. Very subtle.

Yeah. So we're talking about big to subtle, right? There's like a range of them. So first is it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions and my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing is you you can if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control and if you have bad intentions they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues.

So in the book I talk about there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, non-verbal, verbal and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable. There's highly competent cues, verbal, non-verbal, and vocal. And then there's charismatic, the ones that are just knock it out of the park. Like, they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use. They're the way that we leak guilt and shame.

Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt uh that you've done something wrong. So, in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues. So, I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them. them. them. Okay. What are those cues? Okay, so there's a bunch and I'll let's talk about as many as we can. So, and this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot potentially, someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely success. They could be successful. They could seem credible, trustworthy. trustworthy. trustworthy. Yes. Yes. Yes. But might be super narcissistic underneath. underneath. underneath. Yes. So there's a couple danger zone cues that we can control which a manipulative person could inhibit, right? So for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. Armstrong. Armstrong. So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert, uh Lance Armstrong was doping. So if you haven't, someone was like, there was spoilers in the book and I was like, you haven't heard that yet?

yet? yet? I also talk about Britney Spears in the book, uh because there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She's she shows a lot of danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping and he does what's called a lip purse. So a lip purse is, okay, when we push our line our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture.

withholding gesture. withholding gesture. So when we're literally trying to hold something in or hold something back or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go. And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie a lot of the times, so we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book. It's called lie to me. So I have you lie to me.

Uh play this lie to me game to diagnose your own tells. It's very important to know your own tells because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. And one of you should know those. It's good to know those in the back of your pocket. Um do that with your partner, right? you want you want them to know what those are too. Um so one thing that we noticed is on lies that was one of the biggest indicators. So in lie to me game we ask you to do two things.

We ask you to tell us uh an embarrassing story your most embarrassing story and then a fake embarrassing story. And we want to see if we can tell the difference if we if we cut the clips. Can we know which one is the fake one? Man, that'd be interesting. Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again. right before someone's about to lie and tell their fake embarrassing story. They go, "Okay." And they lip purse right before they're going to do it.

And that's because we don't like lying. Our body knows it's going to get us into trouble. So, we're like, "Stop it. Stop it. Stop it." And we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman, "How much do you weigh?" And she'll go, like, literally close those lips cuz no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So, it's a withholding gesture. And so, um, that's the first thing is you want to look for some of the bigger cues. Withholding gestures. Uh, lip purse is one. Uh, a sudden distancing behavior.

So, we also noticed that liars in our lab, they wanted to like get away from the lie, like as if it smelled. So, like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be like leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it was so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing stories are negative, right? right? right? It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like, and they do a shame touch. The universal shame touch is when people uh touch their fingers to the side of their forehead. This happened and I'm like, "Oh gosh, I'm so embarrassed." So, they usually tell the truth and they do like this.

Yes. Because they're actually embarrassed, right? So, these are all good a like congruent, right? We're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative nonverbal and people shaking their head. I can't believe that happened, right? Like they, oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes. We're seeing fear. We're seeing sadness. Congruent, right? Like that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories, we often see people will lit purse and they try to get away from it. So, they'll say a statement and then uh you know, and then um and they're literally like as far away.

I hope I'm not messing up my audio. They're as far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back. They'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair. And that's because physically we want to distance ourselves from things we don't like. like. like. So, we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing. And there's a lot of cues that we can't control, right? So, blink rate is another one. Eye blocking behavior is um liars have higher blink rates. rates. rates. They blink more. Yeah.

actually in uh Britney Spears, she had a a really interesting interview that I um I actually break this down on my YouTube channel, so you don't even have to read the book if you want to see it where I break down the cues in this early interview. This is right before the conservatorship started. So very very full of cues cuz it's right before it happened. And she gets asked very difficult question. And she all of a sudden her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate.

So she starts to to really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening so we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, "Oh, I know a very narcissistic, manipulative person who has a very high blink rate." Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Because they're literally like trying to block out the lie or the manipulation.

And so they'll sound really good, but they're like really like processing a lot. And you and you're like, "Why are they blinking so much?" And it's because they're trying to process. Oh my goodness. So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own, but just it's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them. And I do think I really think manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth.

It's hard to keep that up. And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them. them. them. But for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at, you know, Theronos, right? So, um, Elizabeth Holmes. So, spoiler alert, Theronos did not go well. I feel like I always have to say that. So, one of her interesting cues is, um, I don't know if you've ever seen her talk, she has a really she uses a really deep voice, like fakey deep like down here.

here. here. And people used to say like, "Is that real?" It's because she read in some Q book, it wasn't mine cuz my book wasn't out then, thank goodness. She read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. is true. is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice and it serves you really well.

When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register. When I'm talking to my toddler, toddler, toddler, right? Right. When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm much more up here. You know, hey baby, how are you? But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. Right. You wouldn't feel confident. No. And it wouldn't people would go, I I can't I'm not taking her or her take her seriously. So she read that study obviously obviously obviously and went an octave lower.

There you go. And went an octave lower. So it it wasn't her natural voice tone. It was like one step lower than her voice tone. She was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this. And you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your Spidey sense would be like, "Why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural." And it came out that when she was drunk, her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register.

Wow. Wow. Wow. So there are cues that they will eventually eventually eventually don't drink alcohol. And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol or you're going to get caught. So like you can't keep it up for that long is that she was faking that cue. We think think think I think you're also just your body is out of integrity. Like the more you're you're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I felt this from the past cuz I've been out of integrity in my life at different times from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right?

For little white lies to bigger stuff hiding from my parents or whatever it is. They feel bad. So you're like like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you got to like keep the lie up and you're like uh eventually you're going to explode or you're going to have a heart attack or something. It's going to leak. It's going to leak cues. You leak you leak those cues and like those are the cues that we're looking for. Like I want you to be on the lookout for them because when something feels bad like even like something feels bad even just then when you were saying it felt bad your voice tone changed just then just then just then because when you think about oh I'm like think about seeing a toxic person and I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives and this is why toxic people toxic people toxic people are so challenging because toxic people put us out of integrity.

Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it. Now we can do it. What do you mean we got to be nice to them or something? Yeah. So like if you have a toxic person and this is the thorn in and I think our work is I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest most competent self. But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic people.

You have a colleague or co-orker or family member family member family member that you don't like. Right? And you have to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, hi. How are you? Right? And so what do we do? We fake smile. Right? So Oh, it's so good to see you. Mhm. Look like it, right? Or we say, "Oh, yeah. So, how Oh, that sounds good. Congratulations, Congratulations, Congratulations, right? right? right? You know, your LA roots are coming back to you." to you." to you." And right, that's why toxic people challenge us is because they come into our lives, we know we're supposed to be warm and so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and it makes us feel bad and then we're trying to overcompensate for it.

And so, you know what? The antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's it's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like the side effect, right, right, right, of the book is like don't keep them around. Don't keep those people around because it will leak. And so set boundaries. What do you mean it will leak? Like your integrity will leak because you're constantly trying to be nice, but they're actually out of integrity cuz you don't want to be. Is that right?

Right. That's exactly right. So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me cuz I feel like I have to with this person. And the more frequently you do that, you feel out of integrity with yourself. Yep. Exactly. yourself with yourself. That was a question. You were asking question and I'm like, "Yes, it was." Yes. Yes. It was perfect cuz you were asking a question. I knew Yes. is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries, we have to have some of those people we deal with.

But if you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness and that feels really bad. What happens if let's just say there's a person you don't like. Let's just say maybe they're not toxic. There's someone you don't like and you don't like being nice to cuz you feel like why am I sp I just don't nothing wrong with them. there's not my person. Yeah, totally. totally. totally. Let's say they're in a work environment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're at a company, got 50, 100 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and and act nice around this person, friendly, fake, how are you, interested, even though you've like been around them for 6 months or a year and you realize you really don't like them? Mhm. Or is it better to go right up to the person after 6 months say, "You know what? I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you cuz I feel like I've been fake." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That I don't connect with you.

I don't like you. I think I think you're out of integrity. I think you're inauthentic. And maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd rather be honest with you and fake nice to you. to you. to you. Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C? Sure. Sure. Sure. Okay, so I don't believe in fake it till you make it. So I I I try not to give like fake it. I don't I don't roll that way. like I just think it's exhausting. I think it's going to leak.

The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So, if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them, right? You have to master your tasks. You have to be on it. You have to be responsive to emails. So, that is something that you can be authentic about because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting.

So, I would skip all the fake warmth stuff. Don't confidence. confidence. confidence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. like skit stick with where you're authentic, which is like I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. you. you. Um I don't need a fake sitting with you for coffee, but you know what? We can get stuff done. You know what? We align create boundaries around the hey, let's go have coffee. Actually, I'm busy. I'm so busy today, but you I'm so busy.

I'm so busy today, but you know what? Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick off. Yeah. So, get back to like the mission, the task on hand, the competence, and maybe you've just got to be like, "Okay, this is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a day I've got to be around someone that's trying to be fake, liy daddy with everyone, and I'll just wait. I'm going to get stuff done and then I'll move on to the next one." That's it.

Exactly. Because then at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic. be authentic. be authentic. And also, that's even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be, listen, like, you know, I'm I'm not really into like, you know, connecting at work. I'm more about getting it done. I I want to get home to my kids and my family. I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us like, you know, work it out and be really efficient.

I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster, right? Like that's authentic. So, what can you appreciate about them that's competent? competent? competent? Yes. Yes. Yes. What can you highlight about them that's competent? And that's what if you don't feel like they're warm or competent, you're like this person on a team is just they can't get anything done. They're not smart and they have fake attitude around me all day. I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say deal with it.

Like you got like go to your boss, right, and say, "Hey, I just put them on a different team or you say like I don't know how I can work with this person. I don't want to be unauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done and they are causing issues on the team. Like, I don't like to ignore that stuff." Like, you could hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent and doesn't treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, set a boundary or get help.

Give them plan or something. Yeah. Yeah. Don't live with it. Life is too short to feel fakeely competent or fake warmth, warmth, warmth, right? What's been the uh I think I asked you this last time. What's been the charisma strategy? Yeah, if you want to call it strategy. You weren't sure about that. You weren't sure. sure. sure. I don't know what the word is, right? What is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last 6 months that has brought some new attention to your life where you said ah I wasn't aware of that fully but now the research is showing that when someone does this it improves this there's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft cuz I just learned it learned it learned it and this is actually brought to me by one of a couple of my male readers and I'm so curious okay do you agree with this Lewis okay here's what they said so in the book I had a whole section on nodding.

So, nodding, affirmative nods, upside down, right? Are you nod all the time? Yeah. Yes. You You're a nod. It's really high warmth. We love it. We love. Yes. Nodding is great because vertical nods, and by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they'll nod. They nod um side to sideways. That's different. Okay. So, just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement. It's Yes. In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer. longer. longer. That's cool.

That's cool. That's cool. That's why you're a good interviewer is because you'll not be like, "Keep going. Keep going. I'm just kind of I'm just like a bobblehead. I'm just kind of like Yeah. Like a very slow like I'll pause and be like, "Okay, cool." Okay. Well, actually, you're right. Slow nodding is tell me more. Fast nodding is finish up. finish up. finish up. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. I got it. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So, that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a one, two, three, triple nod like I got it.

If you want them to keep going, an introvert. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. So, that's the difference. That's number one. So, I I shared about this. I taught it. And then a couple of my male readers said to me, "You know, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret non-verbal cue between guys." Now, I don't know what this cue is. Here's what they said. If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him, guy to guy, you not up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good to see you.

It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know a guy, but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, you Hey, Hey, Hey, good to see you. Oh, wow. That's so true. Is it true? That's so true. Yeah. You say, "Oh, good to see you." Yeah. Get acknowledged. Get acknowledged. Get acknowledged. Good to see you. Yeah. Hey, what's up, buddy? Okay, so true. Okay, so this was so I snuck it into the book last minute. That's fascinating. I wonder is that like biology? Is that Yes.

Here's why. Social like, Social like, Social like, okay, here's my here's my theory on this. I as soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking. I started watching men. I asked my husband. I asked my guys. And this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So, this is a very vulnerable part of our body. And we're saying, "I know you. I trust you. Look, I'm opening. I'm acknowledging you. And I feel trustworthy." When you don't know someone, but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular.

I don't know you, but I see you. I got you. you. you. I got you. I here for you. Kind of. You can't see my jugular, but I'm here for you. you. you. Protect myself. I'm here for you, bro. Exactly. I think that that's where it comes from is it's like a do I know you or do I not know you? So, in that sense, makes sense. makes sense. makes sense. This is a high warmth cue. Hey buddy, what's up? Right. It's high warmth. You're showing your jugular.

This is a high confidence cue. Hello, good to see you. I look ridiculous. I don't do that. Right. I'm like, "Hi." You know? So, I think that that that was a that was so surprising to me because there's so much more I think to be done. Like I list 96 cues in the book, right? There are that's just the start. I think I'm we're discovering more and more. I think that's where like the excitement comes in. So, that was the new one. That's so cool. And what about what are the three most powerful cues body language cues of leaders?

Okay. So, this is the competence area of the spectrum, right? So when we talk about charisma, we talk about warmth, competence, charisma, and danger. Okay? So three body languages of leaders. Um the example that I give that I really like to teach from is the Nixon Kennedy presidential debate. presidential debate. presidential debate. Okay. Okay. Okay. Have you ever heard of this historical debate? We were not around this debate. So I'd be shocked if you'd seen it. So we want to be in the high the high charisma.

charisma. charisma. There you go. Yes. We want to be doing those cues all the time. That's right. We want to be in the star. So right now you're talking about competence. You just asked me about leaders. So leaders typically are high competence and they can go into warmth when they want to. High competence and charisma, right? Are there high competence and high warmth? Yes. Exactly. Right. So, highly competent cues. If you know that you're warm and you need to dial up competence to hit the sweet spot, these are some cues that will help you.

And the my favorite is from the Nixon President Nixon Kennedy presidential debate. So, this Have you heard about this debate before? It's kind of remind me. Okay. You're like, actually, yes. I watched on the history channel last night. last night. last night. Wasn't I mean, maybe you mentioned this before, but isn't one of them was angrier or something? thing. I can't remember what happened, but I So, this is this is why I like this story is because it created a puzzle, and I like puzzles. So, here's what happened.

During this part in US history, uh Nixon and Kennedy were running for president, and about half the population watched the presidential debate on television, and about half the population listened to the debate on the radio. Everyone who watched the debate was sure that Kennedy won, and everyone who listened to the debate was sure that Nixon won. Wow. And it was the first time where there was a discrepancy between the winners, the perceived winners, cuz one sounded competent, the other one looked warm. looked warm. looked warm.

One sounded like a leader and one looked like a leader. Ooh, you match them together. That's the sweet spot. sweet spot. sweet spot. That's the star. Okay, Okay, Okay, that's the star. Exactly. So, one sounded like a leader. So, Nixon sounded like a leader. He had really good vocal power, but he looked like a loser. M and I hate to use that word, but he himself said in his memoirs he believes he lost that entire presidential election based on the first few seconds of that debate.

First few seconds. He himself said that what he what happened. So he was kind of like the Shark Tank guy trying to buy back back back confidence and warmth at the same time. He gave away his competence in the first few seconds of the debate. So anyone who saw it went, "Oh, no, no, no, no. This guy is not a winner." And this was before they even spoke. So, in the first 30 seconds of the debate, neither of them speak. You see them on camera. And if you were watching, you saw, "Wow, Nixon looks so weak." And here's why.

What most people don't know is that Nixon had just injured his knee on the campaign trail and he had been in the hospital for the week. So, he came in with a bandaged knee and a fever. Kennedy had been tanning. Yeah. He was a nice suit and everything. He was ready to go. And also a kind of funny thing is the debate was in black and white and um Nixon's suit was too brown. It blended into the background. So we I talk about color psychology at the very end of the book colors and so that was an interesting one that he didn't pop as much on the black and white.

Okay. white. Okay. white. Okay. So he shows up and he's sitting in what's called the runner's stance. The runner's stance is when someone So you know runners before they win a race they like go into the crunch position one leg back. back. back. We know this as a readiness position universally across cultures. Someone's about to run away from us, they will get into this position, right? Like they're literally about to run away. It's why sprinters start a race like that. Well, Nixon spent the first 30 seconds of the debate in that position cuz of his knee.

He was trying pain. He was trying to like just he was nursing it. But it made it look like he was about to run out on us. That's from a just a quick non-verbal perspective. The first impression was where's he going? Even though people didn't consciously realize it, he looked not planted. and we don't like leaders who aren't going to stay with us. Whereas Kennedy, on the other hand, he had a a really uh nice uh relaxed cross and he used what's called humility hands. Research calls it humility hands.

Humility hands are when your hands are on your leg and they're resting. Humility, humble, Humility, humble, Humility, humble, humble. humble. humble. So, he looked relaxed, calm, here to stay, you know, not tense, I'm here. I'm your leader, right? So, he looked quote unquote presidential. So, first the runner stance. Second is this is in the first 10 seconds of the debate. They were sitting they were sitting next to each other. They weren't on a podium. No. So here's your first snapshot of the debate and you see Kennedy very humility hands relaxed sitting tall and then you see Nixon who's like arm ready to leave and we see these cues and people already made their decision but people who were listening didn't see any of that right?

They heard the voice. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. And so Nixon lost the debate to Kennedy. He lost the election to Kennedy and he said in his memoir is that's why is because of the cues I sent and so for leaders here's what we want to think about one is relaxed here to stay so the more you can settle into your place the distance this is such a weird measurement I want to see the biggest distance between your earlobe and your shoulder the reason not like this yes yes because why when we are confident when we are winners we take up as much space as possible right we broaden our shoulders We tilt our head towards the sky.

Winners feel pride. So, we look at the distance between someone's ear and shoulder. We're like, "Oh, he looks she looks confident." looks confident." looks confident." When someone hops on a video call, this is the mistake I see. Hi, everyone. Hi, everyone. Hi, everyone. Shoulders pinched up towards ears. And we wonder why people aren't taking us seriously. We wonder why people are interrupting us is because this distance, if I'm like this, hey everyone, happy Monday. Well, your tonality as well. But yeah, right. Like if I start a video call like this.

So, um, today we're going to talk about some updates and I'm going to go over some different slides with you and we're going to wait a few minutes while people log on. Right. Like, Right. Like, Right. Like, so horrible. so horrible. so horrible. If I'm on your team, are they is everyone just like Yes. Yes. Yes. No one get Are you just calling each other out on your social? Everyone's a winner on my team. They're amazing. Right. Like we like we like play music like Yeah.

Right. Of course, you can lean in sometimes. You can, but in that first impression especially, right? It's like, "Hey, good morning everyone. Good to see you." So, I want you to think about profile pictures, videos. I love chairs with armrests. Why? It helps our our shoulders stay grounded. grounded. grounded. So, that's the biggest one is taking up space. The second thing that happens that also gives you more vocal power. So, if I were to do my this entire interview with my uh shoulders up, it would look bizarre, right?

I would look scared. scared. scared. You would be more closed up. Yeah. It would be. And so if I tense my vocal cords right now, I'll begin to go into vocal fry. So vocal fry, have you heard this before? It's when your voice sounds like sizzling bacon. I just don't know. I'm not sure. But like I was just thinking about it and if it's Oh my goodness, it's horrible. And the reason why we'll accidentally go into fry is because we're literally clenching our vocal cords and it they cannot get enough breath.

Vocal fry, not to be gross, but vocal fry happens when our vocal cords rattle together. Mhm. And that's what we're hearing is the rattling. That's why we don't like it. And so when you have space, you prevent vocal fry. If you hear yourself in vocal fry, here's the quickest fix you have. Speak louder. Speak louder. Speak louder. Right. Right. Right. So the best way to get rid of vocal fry is to just up your volume. It will push more air through your vocal cords and it makes them uh hum.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If other people on your team are using vocal fry, vocal fry, vocal fry, just ask them to speak up. Speak a little louder. Yeah. That will usually get them out of vocal fry. Okay. Little secret. Don't don't blame it on me, but that's a really easy way to if you're interviewing someone and they're in vocal fry and you know it's gonna drive your listeners crazy like you know the audio they just can't hear you. Could you speak a little bit louder? It will work.

will work. will work. Now what's the difference between the humble hands on a knees or on a table I guess right here? Does this work on a table as well? Yes. Yes. Yes. Versus hand over top of the other hand which is relaxed but also is closed body. body. body. Yes. Yes. Yes. Versus Versus Versus two hands two hands side by side. relaxed. Not like intense, but relaxed side by side. What's the difference between these two? Perfect question. So, your book cover, your book cover is hand overhand.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a closed posture, but it works. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Right. And so, it's okay to me as long as your hands are relaxed. I don't care if they're closed or open. Now, I do care about this. So, when we protect our trunk, arms crossed. Yes, I do care about this. And why is because when we are crossing like this, I know it's comfortable for some people. M people. M people. M what research finds is two things.

One is we look more closed off. So we never want to look closed off. But second they found that when people are trying to be creative or strategic they literally cannot generate as as much ideas when they are like this. What's the alternative? Humility hands, open posture, holding a drink, typing at a computer, taking notes. notes. notes. Anything else but anything else but that. Anything else? So I love props. So I the way that I don't cross my arms cuz I actually like to cross my arms.

Um, it's kind of relaxing, you know? It's kind of like I know. But actually, if you're thinking or processing, cross away, right? If you're if you need to like take a minute, take a step back, it's a great way to break. So, I hold a clicker for presentations and a pen, you know, like for slides because every time I think about crossing my arms, I remember, oh, I have the clicker. When we think about getting rid of I I call them like bad non-verbal habits, right?

So, ticks. So, ums, crossing arms, those are all bad non-verbal habits. non-verbal habits. non-verbal habits. Slouching. Slouching. Slouching. Slouching. Yeah. It's really hard to just say don't do that. So, what I'd rather you do is replace it. Displacement tactics. Okay. So, you don't you know you cross your arms. Can you hold a coffee mug? Can you hold a pen? Can you hold a clicker? Can you always have a Moleskin notebook? I have a a student of mine who always has a Moleskin. He doesn't need it.

He just holds it. He has it. He opens it up and he'll write the date and the meeting name and what he had for breakfast, but that's it. He literally uses it because if he doesn't, he puts his hands in his pocket or crosses his arms. And so, he has it in front of him because it helps him feel very grounded and center. replacement tool. replacement tool. replacement tool. It's a replacement tool. So, I would think about what are some tools you can use that will help you do that.

What about like what about the uh the finger crossing? So, look at the difference like this. When I'm white knuckling, you can see that I am tense. I'm trying to keep it together, Vanessa. Right. Like, but this is this. So, this is called a steeple. steeple. steeple. The fingertip touch. Oh, I love a steeple. Yeah. So, a steeple is when the tips of your fingers touch and like a church steeple. It's like Mr. Wonderful just does this the whole time. Exactly. You will notice that when Yes.

When Mr. wonderful is trying contemplating a deal. He'll go like this. Why doesn't it make you feel like you're just in control? It's like hm. And so this is a a really good power gesture. It's in what's one of our competence cues. It's why I have it on the cover of the book is to show high competence. Um because it's about getting in control. The steeple, we love it because it shows our palms which shows we're not concealing anything. Do you want the steeple pointed at someone or someone or someone or any of us?

Any and all whatever up here like the diamond. I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be like hello everyone. Good morning. So here or pointed out then is fine. Totally fine. You'll notice that like Mr. Wonderful does it perfectly. He'll like go like this. He'll tap it. The only thing I would be careful of is drumming fingers. That looks like Mr. Burns evil. Right. I like I don't love that one. Okay. So like don't look like you're scheming, right? Like that can look a little bit crazy.

But if you're like, "Oh yes, I'm thinking about it." Now I want to give a caveat. Please only use cues that you've tried on a few times and feel natural. There are some cues in the book where there's 96 cues in the book that I still don't like. I've tried them every which way and I do not like them. What's the most powerful cue that you don't like but you know is extremely effective in charisma or connection or trust or leadership? Volume. So research shows that people who speak in louder volumes literally are taken more seriously.

But that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And so even on stage when I'm like really excited, I still don't want to be like, "Let me tell you about something very," oh god, that's horrible. I don't like it. But volume dynamism is a cue I teach in the book that I have trouble with. But the researcher shows that people are more trustworthy or more competent. Competent. It is a competent cue because if you're soft, it's like you don't believe in your words. It's actually volume dynamism.

So it's being able to use your volume to match your intention. So for example, so tonality and fluctuation at the right moment. moment. moment. Yes. Yes. Yes. So like for example, I feel a little ridiculous when I do this. This is why this is what's cue that I struggle with which is like let me tell you about something. Super important. Super important. Super important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel ridiculous. But some people do it so well. It works. Oh, it works so well. When someone is there people are so charismatic.

Yes. charismatic. Yes. charismatic. Yes. When you can get the tonality, the inflexation is that it is of the tonality. They taught this to us in Toastmasters as one of the 10 oh oh oh initial lessons of being a competent communicator. One of the exercises is to give a 5m minute speech using tonality. It's very you have to like find the cues of when you like pause and slow and then you bring it up right here. It's like how do you make it authentic? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So some people do it naturally. They're so good at it. Gifted. Gifted. Gifted. That is not me. That is why I don't have a podcast. That's why I have a YouTube channel, right? like on YouTube I can use my gestures and my facial expressions. It's why I don't have a podcast. I feel I am not dynamic enough in my vocal power. And so that's one cue that I'm I work on but I have a hard time being in control of my volume. Yeah. Okay. So we have that these hand gestures.

This is fine on the table also. also. also. Yeah. All good. Relax and good. What about hands open on the table? Okay. So let's talk about palm versus palm down. Okay. So when I was searching for the book, I was looking for my favorite are cues hiding in plain sight. Those are my favorite. I Oh, I just used it. it. it. Those are my favorite. Yeah, you did. That was very organic. It's very natural. I'm really happy right now. It's like you're speaking to a girlfriend just naturally flowing through.

Let me tell you right here. Yeah. Okay. So, that was great. That was very exciting. I feel very excited. Okay. So, I love Q's hiding in plain sight. And so, I had a lot of political examples, a lot of celebrity examples and Britney and Lance Armstrong. But I wanted historical examples. And so I was looking at famous paintings and I noticed the Last Supper painted by Leonardo da Vinci has hidden cues in it. You'll notice that uh the way that it's positioned, positioned, positioned, Christ is positioned in the middle.

So Da Vinci positioned in the middle. Okay. Most people do not realize that in that picture, Christ is doing this. He has one palm up and one palm down. It's hard to see it in that. Oh yeah. His left palm is up and the right palm is down on the table. Right now, this is very interesting cuz like most people don't look at this right away, but why why is he doing that? Why would he put his hand like that? And what do those mean? So, let's look at the research.

Palms open are universal gestures of openness. When we want something, what do we do? We hold open our hand. Give it to me. Yeah. When we're offering something, what do we do? We hold open our hand. When we are open to suggestion, we show our palm and we have it visible. A palm down gesture is a high competence cue. It shows dominance. It shows directiveness. You might think of, I won't mention them by name, some famous dictators of the past who did palm down gestures. gestures.

gestures. Why? That is a very dominant gesture. When you are giving, people are giving directives. They often say, "Be quiet. Sit down." Sit down." Sit down." Right? I don't want to hear from you right now. It's a very direct dismissive too in a sense, right? It's kind of kind of kind of especially if you shake it at someone. So why would we have these two cues? They perfectly balance each other out. Christ is depicted as the highest, most charismatic person in the painting. And so what does he do?

He literally balances warmth and competence. He's showing the universal gesture of openness and giving while at the same time a universal gesture of direct authority. authority. authority. When was this painting made? 1498. 1498. 1498. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So Da Vinci, I think, hid cues that signal the viewer, wow, he's charismatic. The takeaway from this, by the way, is if you're giving a directive and you don't want it to be questioned, you're better off giving palms down. You're better off saying, "Listen, team, we've got to get this done.

We've got to be efficient. We got to be streamlined. I need you to do it for me." Just go. Yeah. Just go. Just do it. If you want feedback, like when I take Q&A, I'm like, "What can I do? What questions can I answer?" I answer?" I answer?" Right? I'm giving open. That's a very, very subtle but very powerful cue. Okay? So, that's how Christ has depicted balancing. The other thing that he does is if you measure the amount of space that Christ takes up in the painting, you'll notice he takes up the most space.

He is literally has the most distance between his shoulder and his earlo. earlo. earlo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because he's tilting. So tilting is a warmth gesture. And so he is the only pictured person who is head tilt with also expansive posture. So there's all these hidden cues that I think paint this picture behind what's happening. Now, if you look at Judas, now if you didn't know anything about this history, Judas would be the character painted with the most intrigue. If you notice, he's also holding a clenched fist, right?

He's the only character in the picture who has a clenched fist and is distancing. He's literally turning his body away from us. And we know, we already talked about that distancing is a danger zone Q. So, here is the person who is later about to betray Christ. And how does Da Vinci signal that? He hides cues. He shows a clenched fist which shows withholding and anger. And then he shows that he's about to lie. That he literally turns his body away. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. The reason I show this is because I think that we don't realize there's these views being sent to us all the time.

Um, you know, I do a lot of breakdowns on my YouTube channel of politicians and we don't realize even when we look at political campaigns in one picture there's thousands of cues being sent to us and we should know what's being sent to us. The thumb pinch. Oh, the thumb pinch. Obama, right? Okay. did this whole time, didn't he? didn't he? didn't he? So, here's what's funny is Obama used to be a pointer. Well, we don't like being pointed at. So, there's something about it as humans, you know, it's like, "Let me tell you what to do." It's kind of a better than.

better than. better than. So, I think he was coached because all of a sudden he never pointed again and he only used the thumb pinch. The thumb pinch is a very clever gesture because in Western cultures this means good job, thumbs up, good job or like me. Like literally social media like, right? This is what we see. like, like, like, like. Give me a like. And so the thumb pinch is a very subtle thumbs up gesture. So every time he does it, it makes you think, oh, first of all, it's not He never clenches.

It's relaxed. It's relaxed. It's kind of like an open thumb. It's an open thumb because he's saying aok. Okay. Aok like like. And he's also saying this is a point I want you to remember. It literally looks like a bullet point. Right. Right. Right. I'm going to give you a point that you should remember. should remember. should remember. Yes. Yes. Yes. And Obama I'm going to do an Obama impression. It's going to embarrass us both. Okay. both. Okay. both. Okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm not very good at impressions. Obama does this thing that I just I find so interesting. So interesting. So interesting. So Obama uses a downward inflection. So we talked about the question in flection, right? So when we go up at the end of our sentences, Obama goes down at the end of his sentences. He literally slings down his words. And downward inflection we hear is very authoritative. authoritative. authoritative. So I'm going to do an Obama impression. Okay. So this is him slinging down his words.

He goes, "Sasha, Malia, it's very important that what we do today is going to be remembered forever. And if we don't do those things, we are going to be in deep trouble. I That's a terrible Obama pressure, but you can hear what I'm saying, right? He slings his words down and that is very authoritative. So even that vocal cue makes us think, well, he knows what he's talking about, right? It's more authoritative, more confidence. confidence. confidence. It's more authoritative versus if he were to say, Sasha, Malia, I have something really important to tell you, it's really important we do this for our future.

Mhm. future. Mhm. future. Mhm. Could you imagine if he gave speeches like that? And so even that vocal inflection worked for him because he also creates a lot of space in his mouth. He has a lot of space in the middle part of his mouth. So he talks very deeply in his mouth and that helps keep his resonance really low because he's has a space in the back of his mouth and that creates a lot of resonance. resonance. resonance. It's a good Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. It's a good impression. I like it. That was good. You're not embarrassed for me. Good. No, it was great. It's because he creates this low resonance point and we like it. Uhhuh. So that's that downward inflection is really important. So many great cues in here. The power of the pause, the pause for power. So a mistake that I used to make is I would pause the end of my sentence before continuing on to my next sentence and I would get interrupted. Right? So a mistake that people will make is they'll give a thought, pause, and then keep speaking.

Now pauses are quite powerful. Powerful people typically use pauses in their speech. But if you pause in between your sentences, people will interrupt you because they think you're done. You're actually better off using what I call a a power pause. A power pause is when you pause right before you give something away. So not the end of a sentence, right, right, right, in the middle of a sentence before you're going to share something really important. really important. really important. So let me tell you something really important.

important. important. That's exactly. So like so, so the here's the mistake that people make is they'll say something really important happened in my childhood that I want to tell you about. Pause. It was when I was okay. People are like should I talk to you? Should I ask you another question? What should I say? It actually creates conversational confusion which is the last thing you want want want versus versus versus I want to share a really important story from my childhood. That creates a lot more intrigue because like a story oh from your childhood and I I have no desire to interrupt.

So that's a very advanced tip. That's that's towards the end of the book. It's a very advanced tip because if you have trouble with people interrupting you, I would practice switching your pauses and think about that. What's the drama you can give can give can give drama? drama? drama? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Create the drama. Volume pauses. Yeah. And by the way, Obama did that very well. He would he would deliver a point, right? He would go into his residence and he would say, "What this country needs needs needs is better systems." Right?

I'm saying nothing, but you're like, "What's better? What is it?" You know what is the thing that we need? Yes. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. say it. say it. That's it. Um although although how you say it is important too. That's the competency. That's the last chapter. So the last chapter I have to end on is verbal because yes we spend a lot of the book talking about non-verbal and vocal. But your words matter as we talked about with achievement oriented words.

But man if you can deliver achievementoriented words with power pausing with a steeple. Look out. Look out world. You're coming. You're coming. You're coming. That's big. I am a big believer that the most important thing we can do is learn how to heal the different traumas or triggers from our past that get us in a reactive state when the world is happening happening happening and we become uptight, reactive. We say things we don't want to say, we regret the things we do, we act out, whatever it might be.

Healing the past memories, pain, frustrations, whatever you want to call it, I think it's one of the most powerful things. The second most powerful thing we can do is learn how to master the art of communication and learn how to be comfortable in our own skin and our own voice. You know, how to win friends and influence people was a book that was extremely powerful for so many people to learn how to socially connect. And again, in life, we are either enrolling other people in us and our vision or we're unenrolling them in us and our vision based on how we communicate, how we connect with people, whether we're trustworthy or untrustworthy.

untrustworthy. untrustworthy. this book and your research and studies and content has been extremely powerful for so many people including myself. I learned a lot and I feel like this is something I'm always studying. Yeah. Because I feel like you can never learn enough of understanding the science of people. people. people. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so I one want people to learn how to continue to heal. It's a it's a journey. Yes. Yes. Yes. But two I want them to learn how to understand people. Again, if we go back to the quote that changed my early adult life, which was people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

If you can learn how to communicate that to people, it'll take you much farther. You know, you can you can get by with less skills and less smarts. If you understand how to be deeply empathetic and have connection skills with other people, it'll take you a long way. Eventually, you got to have some confidence in there and be skilled at something. at something. at something. Of course, everyone who's watching does, right? Like we know that you got to have skills and I think it's always important to invest in developing new skills as well to make you more competent.

But this uh this book, your work is extremely valuable and important. Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication, Small Signals, Incredible Impact. Vanessa Van Edwards. I want everyone to get this book. I want you to buy a few copies for your friends, for the introvert friends in your life, for the socially awkward friends, for the anxious friends. Charisma is a is a superpower. superpower. superpower. It's a superpower. It is a superpower when used correctly. And and here's the thing. If you use it incorrectly, you'll be humbled at some point in your life.

That's right. That's right. That's right. Eventually, bad things will happen and they'll keep happening over and over. Drain you. So, you're going to be humbled by the world uh if you if you don't use humility with your charisma. But I'm very excited about the book. I can't wait to dive in more and go back to this interview even more. I want people to get the book. They can follow you on the website scienceofpeople.com, which has got an amazing newsletter that I subscribe to and get a lot of wisdom from.

Thank you. You're always sharing new research and all that stuff on there. Scienceofpeople.com. Scienceofpeople.com. Scienceofpeople.com. Uh Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Van Edwards. Edwards. Edwards. That's me. That's me. That's me. Everywhere on social media. Your YouTube as well. It's extremely fun to watch. You just break down all these things visually. visually. visually. Yes. So I I there was a couple things that didn't I didn't get to put in the book cuz they were too visual. Like it was just too hard to explain it. And so if you want to just get a little taste test, I break down the rock because it's great.

great. great. Who doesn't want to see many like dozens of cubes from rock? So, I break down the rock. I do a deep dive of Britney Spears because I didn't even That was a whole book, right? Like I didn't have time to do it. I do um Morgan Freeman, how does he get that vocal power? I talk about how he does it. Princess Diana, why were we so intrigued by her? And Justin Bieber. So, I break down some cues in there if you just want a little taste test.

taste test. taste test. And that's all science of people or is that that that that's on YouTube and on Science People. And we have our interview on on there, too. So, if people want to go watch that, they can. Yes. Final two questions before I ask them. I want to acknowledge you, Vanessa, for constantly showing up. I think it's I think introverts who felt like they grew up socially awkward takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there to constantly be in front of a camera to be speaking on stages to be learning this work and then sharing your work I think it's really challenging to do for introverts so for the journey that you've been on to try to healing healing exact healing is big too but the journey you've had and you constantly keep showing up and putting this work out there is really inspiring so I acknowledge you for that thank you thank you thank you um you've I asked you this question before but this is called the three truth truth question.

Imagine it's your last day on earth many years away and for whatever reason all of your work has to go with you to another place. So, no one has access to your content. But if you could leave three lessons to the world behind, what would you say would be those three lessons for you? Life is too short to fake it. Find the real warmth or the real competence or get rid of it. There are unique flavors of charisma. You don't have to be the bubbly extrovert.

You can be the wise, competent sage or the quiet, powerful leader or the empathetic, compassionate healer. Those are all charismatic. There are different flavors. And lastly, And lastly, And lastly, your words have power. Your cues have power. Don't waste them. We can change someone's physiology with a single word. So with every word you put out there, think about how can you infect people for good. for good. for good. That is powerful. What's the most powerful word we can infect someone with in a positive way? I think gratitude.

I think every time you say thank you, I'm appreciative, I'm grateful. grateful. grateful. You're gifting them honor and you're feeling grateful yourself. It's the only word I can think of that has a double effect both ways. So, can I end on gratitude? I want to thank you so much because you created a tipping point in my career where you believed in me. you listen to me wholeheartedly and you put my work out there and people listen and they were it was a total tipping point in in in my career and so um you made me do podcasts.

You made me realize I can do them in their safe spaces which I was a little afraid of. Um you made me realize that I can find my people and I just have to speak to them and so I and you're and you're always say you always say yes, how can I help which I'm so grateful for. Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you in return. the inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed, or stressed. A a sense of shame. So, if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage.

A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So when anyone points out anything,