Binance CEO: 4 Months in Prison, $4 Billion Fine, and What Comes Next

CZ, welcome to the All-In podcast. CZ, welcome to the All-In podcast. >> Well, thanks for having me here. >> Well, thanks for having me here. >> Well, thanks for having me here. >> It's really, really great to see you. >> It's really, really great to see you. >> It's really, really great to see you. >> It's a pleasure, Hannah. >> It's a pleasure, Hannah. >> It's a pleasure, Hannah. >> I want to go all the way back to the >> I want to go all the way back to the >> I want to go all the way back to the beginning because I think a lot of beginning because I think a lot of beginning because I think a lot of people don't really know your background people don't really know your background people don't really know your background the way that they probably should. The the way that they probably should. The the way that they probably should. The part of the background that I really part of the background that I really part of the background that I really care about is there's parts of your care about is there's parts of your care about is there's parts of your early journey in Canada, which is very early journey in Canada, which is very early journey in Canada, which is very similar to mine. You worked at similar to mine. You worked at similar to mine. You worked at McDonald's. I worked at Burger King. McDonald's. I worked at Burger King. McDonald's. I worked at Burger King. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But before that, your parents were able >> But before that, your parents were able >> But before that, your parents were able to immigrate from China right around to immigrate from China right around to immigrate from China right around Tanen Square, right? My father went to Tanen Square, right? My father went to Tanen Square, right? My father went to you uh Canada to study in 1984. That's you uh Canada to study in 1984. That's you uh Canada to study in 1984. That's five years before tan square. five years before tan square. five years before tan square. >> How did that come about? So your father >> How did that come about? So your father >> How did that come about? So your father stayed in Canada once he went there or stayed in Canada once he went there or stayed in Canada once he went there or no? no? no? >> Uh he he could visit us every twice a >> Uh he he could visit us every twice a >> Uh he he could visit us every twice a year basically but he would most of the year basically but he would most of the year basically but he would most of the time he was in Canada time he was in Canada time he was in Canada >> and um yeah so >> and um yeah so >> and um yeah so >> and he was a teacher in China. >> and he was a teacher in China. >> and he was a teacher in China. >> He was a teacher professor. He was a >> He was a teacher professor. He was a >> He was a teacher professor. He was a professor in China and then he went to professor in China and then he went to professor in China and then he went to do a exchange program in University of do a exchange program in University of do a exchange program in University of Toronto first. Toronto first. Toronto first. >> Uhhuh. And then uh a couple years later >> Uhhuh. And then uh a couple years later >> Uhhuh. And then uh a couple years later he moved to UBC University of Brit Brit he moved to UBC University of Brit Brit he moved to UBC University of Brit Brit British Columbia in Vancouver. And then British Columbia in Vancouver. And then British Columbia in Vancouver. And then he was there. We were applying back back he was there. We were applying back back he was there. We were applying back back then it's actually very difficult to get then it's actually very difficult to get then it's actually very difficult to get a passport. It takes like three or four a passport. It takes like three or four a passport. It takes like three or four years to get a passport. We started years to get a passport. We started years to get a passport. We started applying in 1985 fiveish. It took like applying in 1985 fiveish. It took like applying in 1985 fiveish. It took like two three years to get a passport and two three years to get a passport and two three years to get a passport and then uh after you get a passport then uh after you get a passport then uh after you get a passport >> meaning a Chinese passport. >> meaning a Chinese passport. >> meaning a Chinese passport. >> A Chinese passport. Yeah. So um and then >> A Chinese passport. Yeah. So um and then >> A Chinese passport. Yeah. So um and then it takes like another few years to get a it takes like another few years to get a it takes like another few years to get a visa. Like that's just how long the visa. Like that's just how long the visa. Like that's just how long the process takes back then. And then uh process takes back then. And then uh process takes back then. And then uh yeah, so we got it shortly after uh in yeah, so we got it shortly after uh in yeah, so we got it shortly after uh in 18 uh 1989. 18 uh 1989. 18 uh 1989. >> When you look back, it almost seems >> When you look back, it almost seems >> When you look back, it almost seems fortuitous. Isn't there a version where fortuitous. Isn't there a version where fortuitous. Isn't there a version where post tan men they kind of just shut post tan men they kind of just shut post tan men they kind of just shut everything down and say, "Okay, let's everything down and say, "Okay, let's everything down and say, "Okay, let's just reset and then maybe they wouldn't just reset and then maybe they wouldn't just reset and then maybe they wouldn't have approved the visa or have approved the visa or have approved the visa or >> No, actually after that the visa got >> No, actually after that the visa got >> No, actually after that the visa got easier. The passports like that got easier. The passports like that got easier. The passports like that got harder." So they they don't they no harder." So they they don't they no harder." So they they don't they no longer issue new passport like the longer issue new passport like the longer issue new passport like the reissue of new passports got harder. But reissue of new passports got harder. But reissue of new passports got harder. But we we were lucky. So we got the we we were lucky. So we got the we we were lucky. So we got the passports like you know like maybe a passports like you know like maybe a passports like you know like maybe a year before that and then we're waiting year before that and then we're waiting year before that and then we're waiting for the visa and then afterwards the for the visa and then afterwards the for the visa and then afterwards the visa got easier. So in some ways that visa got easier. So in some ways that visa got easier. So in some ways that actually kind of helped us to get to get actually kind of helped us to get to get actually kind of helped us to get to get the visa. Wow. the visa. Wow. the visa. Wow. >> Yeah. In some really weird way. >> Yeah. In some really weird way. >> Yeah. In some really weird way. >> Did that event shape your perspective in >> Did that event shape your perspective in >> Did that event shape your perspective in any way shape or form or not really? any way shape or form or not really? any way shape or form or not really? Were you too young or no? You were what Were you too young or no? You were what Were you too young or no? You were what 12? 12? 12? >> I was 12. So I think consciously no. uh >> I was 12. So I think consciously no. uh >> I was 12. So I think consciously no. uh this it didn't change me that much but I this it didn't change me that much but I this it didn't change me that much but I subconsciously I think you know there subconsciously I think you know there subconsciously I think you know there were discussions about know democracy were discussions about know democracy were discussions about know democracy versus um so there's some discussions I versus um so there's some discussions I versus um so there's some discussions I was actually living on a university was actually living on a university was actually living on a university campus back then uh the China the campus back then uh the China the campus back then uh the China the Chinese the China science and technology Chinese the China science and technology Chinese the China science and technology universities one of the top four universities one of the top four universities one of the top four universities in China so there were a universities in China so there were a universities in China so there were a lot of discussions among the university lot of discussions among the university lot of discussions among the university students which were older like which students which were older like which students which were older like which were probably seven to nine years older were probably seven to nine years older were probably seven to nine years older than me so there were some discussions than me so there were some discussions than me so there were some discussions but I'm I was 12 so um I wasn't really but I'm I was 12 so um I wasn't really but I'm I was 12 so um I wasn't really clued into it but I think subconsciously clued into it but I think subconsciously clued into it but I think subconsciously It may have some kind of a subconscious It may have some kind of a subconscious It may have some kind of a subconscious impact. I don't know. impact. I don't know. impact. I don't know. >> And what was it like when you you moved >> And what was it like when you you moved >> And what was it like when you you moved to Vancouver? to Vancouver? to Vancouver? >> I moved to Vancouver. Yeah. >> I moved to Vancouver. Yeah. >> I moved to Vancouver. Yeah. >> So you land in British Columbia. >> So you land in British Columbia. >> So you land in British Columbia. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In Vancouver. It's like a different >> In Vancouver. It's like a different >> In Vancouver. It's like a different >> It's just different. >> It's just different. >> It's just different. >> It's very different. It's very >> It's very different. It's very >> It's very different. It's very different. Um it's just a completely new different. Um it's just a completely new different. Um it's just a completely new country and then uh country and then uh country and then uh >> did you know English at all or No, >> did you know English at all or No, >> did you know English at all or No, >> I studied English for like couple years >> I studied English for like couple years >> I studied English for like couple years in in school but you know I was not in in school but you know I was not in in school but you know I was not fluent at all. But yeah, Vancouver is fluent at all. But yeah, Vancouver is fluent at all. But yeah, Vancouver is great. Canada is you know nice green great. Canada is you know nice green great. Canada is you know nice green nice greenery. um open space. Uh nice greenery. um open space. Uh nice greenery. um open space. Uh everything's pretty uh the living everything's pretty uh the living everything's pretty uh the living standard is high. Everything's pretty standard is high. Everything's pretty standard is high. Everything's pretty pretty good. Um everything is very pretty good. Um everything is very pretty good. Um everything is very clean. Uh the fruits are bigger. Um so clean. Uh the fruits are bigger. Um so clean. Uh the fruits are bigger. Um so >> it's it's just a really nice >> it's it's just a really nice >> it's it's just a really nice environment. Yeah. environment. Yeah. environment. Yeah. >> Did both your parents work when the >> Did both your parents work when the >> Did both your parents work when the family was reunited? What do they do? family was reunited? What do they do? family was reunited? What do they do? >> Uh so my father stayed uh was like >> Uh so my father stayed uh was like >> Uh so my father stayed uh was like assistant professor in the in the in the assistant professor in the in the in the assistant professor in the in the in the un university. He gets like a thousand un university. He gets like a thousand un university. He gets like a thousand Canadian dollars per month of like I Canadian dollars per month of like I Canadian dollars per month of like I don't know what do you call it? don't know what do you call it? don't know what do you call it? >> Like a stipent. >> Like a stipent. >> Like a stipent. >> Like a stipent. >> Like a stipent. >> Like a stipent. >> Yeah. We get some like really lowcost >> Yeah. We get some like really lowcost >> Yeah. We get some like really lowcost house housing with the the faculty house housing with the the faculty house housing with the the faculty housing from uh UBC. So we lived on housing from uh UBC. So we lived on housing from uh UBC. So we lived on campus. Uh we I think on the third day campus. Uh we I think on the third day campus. Uh we I think on the third day of our arrival in Canada, my mom went to of our arrival in Canada, my mom went to of our arrival in Canada, my mom went to a factory sewing factory to work like a factory sewing factory to work like a factory sewing factory to work like sewing clothes. Uh she was a math and sewing clothes. Uh she was a math and sewing clothes. Uh she was a math and history teacher in China, but she history teacher in China, but she history teacher in China, but she doesn't speak that much English. So she doesn't speak that much English. So she doesn't speak that much English. So she couldn't get the same level of jobs and couldn't get the same level of jobs and couldn't get the same level of jobs and she basically can only work at a minimum she basically can only work at a minimum she basically can only work at a minimum wage factory. wage factory. wage factory. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh she did that for like seven 10 years. >> Uh she did that for like seven 10 years. >> Uh she did that for like seven 10 years. Um and yeah so she she just worked Um and yeah so she she just worked Um and yeah so she she just worked there. there. there. >> My mom was a nurse in Sri Lanka and when >> My mom was a nurse in Sri Lanka and when >> My mom was a nurse in Sri Lanka and when we immigrated when we got refugee status we immigrated when we got refugee status we immigrated when we got refugee status >> my father was unemployed. >> my father was unemployed. >> my father was unemployed. >> Yeah >> Yeah >> Yeah >> and my mom became a housekeeper >> and my mom became a housekeeper >> and my mom became a housekeeper >> and that's what she did and then she >> and that's what she did and then she >> and that's what she did and then she became like a nurse's aid and and then I became like a nurse's aid and and then I became like a nurse's aid and and then I think when I was like 14 is when I got think when I was like 14 is when I got think when I was like 14 is when I got my first job. my first job. my first job. >> Yeah. Yeah. I got my first job at >> Yeah. Yeah. I got my first job at >> Yeah. Yeah. I got my first job at McDonald's at I think it's 14 or 15. I McDonald's at I think it's 14 or 15. I McDonald's at I think it's 14 or 15. I think it was 15. think it was 15. think it was 15. >> 14. Yeah. >> 14. Yeah. >> 14. Yeah. >> We're the same age so it probably would >> We're the same age so it probably would >> We're the same age so it probably would have been 14. I don't know what the Do have been 14. I don't know what the Do have been 14. I don't know what the Do you remember what the minimum wage was you remember what the minimum wage was you remember what the minimum wage was in British Columbia that in British Columbia that in British Columbia that >> I do. Uh the minimum wage was $6, but >> I do. Uh the minimum wage was $6, but >> I do. Uh the minimum wage was $6, but McDonald's McDonald's McDonald's >> Oh, that's incredible. In Ontario, it >> Oh, that's incredible. In Ontario, it >> Oh, that's incredible. In Ontario, it was 455. was 455. was 455. >> So, but in McDonald's, they pay 450. >> So, but in McDonald's, they pay 450. >> So, but in McDonald's, they pay 450. That's below minimum wage That's below minimum wage That's below minimum wage >> because the McDonald's somehow had like >> because the McDonald's somehow had like >> because the McDonald's somehow had like a special exemption because they a lot a special exemption because they a lot a special exemption because they a lot of young kids work there. of young kids work there. of young kids work there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, um so, uh I think it was on my 14th >> So, um so, uh I think it was on my 14th >> So, um so, uh I think it was on my 14th birthday that I applied for the job and birthday that I applied for the job and birthday that I applied for the job and then a week later I was flipping burgers then a week later I was flipping burgers then a week later I was flipping burgers there. Um and it was the first income I there. Um and it was the first income I there. Um and it was the first income I had. You're not like this precocious had. You're not like this precocious had. You're not like this precocious technical wonder kid who's coding 247 technical wonder kid who's coding 247 technical wonder kid who's coding 247 and learning computer science or were and learning computer science or were and learning computer science or were you? you? you? >> Uh no I wouldn't describe me as that. I >> Uh no I wouldn't describe me as that. I >> Uh no I wouldn't describe me as that. I think I'm I'm a technical guy. Uh I think I'm I'm a technical guy. Uh I think I'm I'm a technical guy. Uh I started computer science. I was learning started computer science. I was learning started computer science. I was learning pro I was interested in programming even pro I was interested in programming even pro I was interested in programming even in high school. Um but I wasn't a in high school. Um but I wasn't a in high school. Um but I wasn't a programming wizard. Uh I wasn't like you programming wizard. Uh I wasn't like you programming wizard. Uh I wasn't like you know one of those really genius coders. know one of those really genius coders. know one of those really genius coders. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think I'm a decent coder. Uh I think I >> I think I'm a decent coder. Uh I think I >> I think I'm a decent coder. Uh I think I I wrote some decent code in my in my I wrote some decent code in my in my I wrote some decent code in my in my career and then um when I was like third career and then um when I was like third career and then um when I was like third 20 28 30-ish I moved away from coding. I 20 28 30-ish I moved away from coding. I 20 28 30-ish I moved away from coding. I was like doing more business development was like doing more business development was like doing more business development um sales and etc. So there was like um sales and etc. So there was like um sales and etc. So there was like maybe I would say 80 years of my career. maybe I would say 80 years of my career. maybe I would say 80 years of my career. >> So you're a normal immigrant kid >> So you're a normal immigrant kid >> So you're a normal immigrant kid learning to adapt in Canada. learning to adapt in Canada. learning to adapt in Canada. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Did you have a lot of friends? >> Did you have a lot of friends? >> Did you have a lot of friends? >> Yeah, I had a lot of friends. I had a um >> Yeah, I had a lot of friends. I had a um >> Yeah, I had a lot of friends. I had a um my my my >> only Asian friends or No, >> only Asian friends or No, >> only Asian friends or No, >> both. I actually had like both Asian and >> both. I actually had like both Asian and >> both. I actually had like both Asian and non-Asian friends. Uh but uh uh I was non-Asian friends. Uh but uh uh I was non-Asian friends. Uh but uh uh I was actually in our school most of the actually in our school most of the actually in our school most of the Asians hang out with Asians but I was Asians hang out with Asians but I was Asians hang out with Asians but I was actually one of the exceptions that I actually one of the exceptions that I actually one of the exceptions that I had like Caucasian friends. I had all had like Caucasian friends. I had all had like Caucasian friends. I had all kind of uh uh different friends. kind of uh uh different friends. kind of uh uh different friends. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My teenager years in Canada was great. >> My teenager years in Canada was great. >> My teenager years in Canada was great. It was like some of the best years like It was like some of the best years like It was like some of the best years like I think those years are really shaped to I think those years are really shaped to I think those years are really shaped to me to be a happy person. I'm generally a me to be a happy person. I'm generally a me to be a happy person. I'm generally a happy person. happy person. happy person. >> How did it feel when you weren't able to >> How did it feel when you weren't able to >> How did it feel when you weren't able to get into my alma mater University of get into my alma mater University of get into my alma mater University of Wateroo and so had to settle for McGill? Wateroo and so had to settle for McGill? Wateroo and so had to settle for McGill? >> How did that make you feel? Does it make >> How did that make you feel? Does it make >> How did that make you feel? Does it make you feel stupid? you feel stupid? you feel stupid? So actually u I was decid my sister went So actually u I was decid my sister went So actually u I was decid my sister went to Waterloo so I was I was uh deciding to Waterloo so I was I was uh deciding to Waterloo so I was I was uh deciding between Waterloo and U McGill and maybe between Waterloo and U McGill and maybe between Waterloo and U McGill and maybe UT. Uh I knew I wasn't going to go to UT. Uh I knew I wasn't going to go to UT. Uh I knew I wasn't going to go to UBC. I wanted a different city. UBC. I wanted a different city. UBC. I wanted a different city. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And actually UBC gave me an offer but I >> And actually UBC gave me an offer but I >> And actually UBC gave me an offer but I just knew I I don't I don't want to go just knew I I don't I don't want to go just knew I I don't I don't want to go go there. Um at the at the time I uh my go there. Um at the at the time I uh my go there. Um at the at the time I uh my friend's uh mother who I really respect friend's uh mother who I really respect friend's uh mother who I really respect uh uh she said well you might want to uh uh she said well you might want to uh uh she said well you might want to become a doctor because doctors have a become a doctor because doctors have a become a doctor because doctors have a good living good a good lifestyle. Um I good living good a good lifestyle. Um I good living good a good lifestyle. Um I took her advice. I study biology and took her advice. I study biology and took her advice. I study biology and what is not much of a biology school. what is not much of a biology school. what is not much of a biology school. >> True. >> True. >> True. >> So, uh I went to McGill. Uh but then um >> So, uh I went to McGill. Uh but then um >> So, uh I went to McGill. Uh but then um one semester later I said, "No, no more one semester later I said, "No, no more one semester later I said, "No, no more biology. I got to I'm going to move to biology. I got to I'm going to move to biology. I got to I'm going to move to computer science." computer science." computer science." >> Was it a typical kind of college >> Was it a typical kind of college >> Was it a typical kind of college experience for you? Did you have great experience for you? Did you have great experience for you? Did you have great jobs in the summertime or were you just jobs in the summertime or were you just jobs in the summertime or were you just like a an average normal university kid? like a an average normal university kid? like a an average normal university kid? >> How'd you pay for school by the way? >> How'd you pay for school by the way? >> How'd you pay for school by the way? >> I worked every summer. Uh I worked every >> I worked every summer. Uh I worked every >> I worked every summer. Uh I worked every summer and I also worked part-time summer and I also worked part-time summer and I also worked part-time during the school year. Um so during the school year. Um so during the school year. Um so >> So no debt. You were like I must >> So no debt. You were like I must >> So no debt. You were like I must graduate without debt. graduate without debt. graduate without debt. >> Yeah. I didn't take any student debt. Uh >> Yeah. I didn't take any student debt. Uh >> Yeah. I didn't take any student debt. Uh the first year I actually still took the first year I actually still took the first year I actually still took about $6,000 Canadian dollars from my about $6,000 Canadian dollars from my about $6,000 Canadian dollars from my dad. Um the second year I was still a dad. Um the second year I was still a dad. Um the second year I was still a bit short. My sister gave me $3,000. And bit short. My sister gave me $3,000. And bit short. My sister gave me $3,000. And then from that point on I never took then from that point on I never took then from that point on I never took money from uh uh uh at all. I just I was money from uh uh uh at all. I just I was money from uh uh uh at all. I just I was self-sustainable. self-sustainable. self-sustainable. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So no student debt. Very lucky. U >> Yeah. So no student debt. Very lucky. U >> Yeah. So no student debt. Very lucky. U and uh but I just worked every summer and uh but I just worked every summer and uh but I just worked every summer every like Yeah. every like Yeah. every like Yeah. >> You know the best thing about Waterlue >> You know the best thing about Waterlue >> You know the best thing about Waterlue which was a savior for me which was a savior for me which was a savior for me >> the co-op was co-op program. Yeah. And I >> the co-op was co-op program. Yeah. And I >> the co-op was co-op program. Yeah. And I had these incredible co-op jobs. I still had these incredible co-op jobs. I still had these incredible co-op jobs. I still graduated with about $30,000 of debt. graduated with about $30,000 of debt. graduated with about $30,000 of debt. >> But I was also pretty prolific trader >> But I was also pretty prolific trader >> But I was also pretty prolific trader >> and equities. >> and equities. >> and equities. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And my boss, this guy Mike Fischer, >> And my boss, this guy Mike Fischer, >> And my boss, this guy Mike Fischer, >> did this incredible kindness to me where >> did this incredible kindness to me where >> did this incredible kindness to me where >> I was working at a bank. And I was a >> I was working at a bank. And I was a >> I was working at a bank. And I was a derivatives trader. That was my day job. derivatives trader. That was my day job. derivatives trader. That was my day job. But I was trading equities and I had But I was trading equities and I had But I was trading equities and I had made him enough money. And he said, he made him enough money. And he said, he made him enough money. And he said, he called me Sherman. Didn't call me called me Sherman. Didn't call me called me Sherman. Didn't call me Chimathi. He said, "Sherman, how much Chimathi. He said, "Sherman, how much Chimathi. He said, "Sherman, how much debt do you have?" And I said, "It's debt do you have?" And I said, "It's debt do you have?" And I said, "It's about 30." I said, "Fish, it's about about 30." I said, "Fish, it's about about 30." I said, "Fish, it's about 30,000." 32,000. 30,000." 32,000. 30,000." 32,000. And he said, "Go downstairs right now to And he said, "Go downstairs right now to And he said, "Go downstairs right now to the CIBC and pay your debt and I'll the CIBC and pay your debt and I'll the CIBC and pay your debt and I'll write you a check." write you a check." write you a check." >> Wow. You should have. >> Wow. You should have. >> Wow. You should have. >> And he wrote me a $32,000 check. >> And he wrote me a $32,000 check. >> And he wrote me a $32,000 check. >> I should have said 3,000 300,000. >> I should have said 3,000 300,000. >> I should have said 3,000 300,000. >> But Canada is incredible because you can >> But Canada is incredible because you can >> But Canada is incredible because you can get this education and it doesn't saddle get this education and it doesn't saddle get this education and it doesn't saddle you with this you with this you with this >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> debt that you can't overcome, >> debt that you can't overcome, >> debt that you can't overcome, >> which is not true in the United States >> which is not true in the United States >> which is not true in the United States for many people anymore. for many people anymore. for many people anymore. >> Yeah. Even in McGill, there were people >> Yeah. Even in McGill, there were people >> Yeah. Even in McGill, there were people from the United States going to McGill, from the United States going to McGill, from the United States going to McGill, paying international student uh tuition paying international student uh tuition paying international student uh tuition and it was still cheaper than the US. I and it was still cheaper than the US. I and it was still cheaper than the US. I was like that's crazy. was like that's crazy. was like that's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. So yeah, we were lucky that the US >> Yeah. So yeah, we were lucky that the US >> Yeah. So yeah, we were lucky that the US the Canadian tuition was okay. the Canadian tuition was okay. the Canadian tuition was okay. >> So you graduate from McGill in computer >> So you graduate from McGill in computer >> So you graduate from McGill in computer science. science. science. >> Yeah. In computer actually I didn't >> Yeah. In computer actually I didn't >> Yeah. In computer actually I didn't graduate from McGill. Um I went there graduate from McGill. Um I went there graduate from McGill. Um I went there for four years and on my third year I for four years and on my third year I for four years and on my third year I got an internship on my fourth year I got an internship on my fourth year I got an internship on my fourth year I got my third year I got an internship got my third year I got an internship got my third year I got an internship job and then um u extended extended job and then um u extended extended job and then um u extended extended extended and I didn't go didn't go back extended and I didn't go didn't go back extended and I didn't go didn't go back to McGill. So I didn't graduate from to McGill. So I didn't graduate from to McGill. So I didn't graduate from McGill and later on I found out I still McGill and later on I found out I still McGill and later on I found out I still need a bachelor's degree to apply for need a bachelor's degree to apply for need a bachelor's degree to apply for work visas in Japan. So I went to one of work visas in Japan. So I went to one of work visas in Japan. So I went to one of this is like the doc this is 2000 this this is like the doc this is 2000 this this is like the doc this is 2000 this is the do like height. Um so I went to is the do like height. Um so I went to is the do like height. Um so I went to an online education uh program called an online education uh program called an online education uh program called the American College of Computer Science the American College of Computer Science the American College of Computer Science uh and got a degree there. uh and got a degree there. uh and got a degree there. >> Oh my god. Yeah. So you're technically a >> Oh my god. Yeah. So you're technically a >> Oh my god. Yeah. So you're technically a graduate from that school. graduate from that school. graduate from that school. >> Technically. Yes. >> Technically. Yes. >> Technically. Yes. >> Okay. So which internship did you get >> Okay. So which internship did you get >> Okay. So which internship did you get where you started to work there? Uh so where you started to work there? Uh so where you started to work there? Uh so uh I got an internship uh at to in uh I got an internship uh at to in uh I got an internship uh at to in Tokyo. Uh so I always uh in from from Tokyo. Uh so I always uh in from from Tokyo. Uh so I always uh in from from first year college I always worked on a first year college I always worked on a first year college I always worked on a programming job. So I worked at a programming job. So I worked at a programming job. So I worked at a company called original sim writing some company called original sim writing some company called original sim writing some simulation software and then um third simulation software and then um third simulation software and then um third year I got into a company in Japan in year I got into a company in Japan in year I got into a company in Japan in Tokyo called Fusion Systems um Japan and Tokyo called Fusion Systems um Japan and Tokyo called Fusion Systems um Japan and then uh they were writing uh order then uh they were writing uh order then uh they were writing uh order execution systems for brokers of uh the execution systems for brokers of uh the execution systems for brokers of uh the Tokyo stock. Tokyo stock. Tokyo stock. >> Sorry that's a Japanese company with an >> Sorry that's a Japanese company with an >> Sorry that's a Japanese company with an office in Montreal or an office in office in Montreal or an office in office in Montreal or an office in Canada or no? Canada or no? Canada or no? >> No no I I went to Tokyo. You went to >> No no I I went to Tokyo. You went to >> No no I I went to Tokyo. You went to Tokyo. Tokyo. Tokyo. >> Yeah. It's actually an American uh a >> Yeah. It's actually an American uh a >> Yeah. It's actually an American uh a bunch of American guys company that's in bunch of American guys company that's in bunch of American guys company that's in Tokyo. Uh so it's like a bunch of guys Tokyo. Uh so it's like a bunch of guys Tokyo. Uh so it's like a bunch of guys were were were >> And you're thinking this is an >> And you're thinking this is an >> And you're thinking this is an adventure. I'm going to go and live in adventure. I'm going to go and live in adventure. I'm going to go and live in Tokyo for a summer. Tokyo for a summer. Tokyo for a summer. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was a college >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was a college >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was a college student and living in Tokyo is like a student and living in Tokyo is like a student and living in Tokyo is like a you know it's fun. It's dream. Yeah. you know it's fun. It's dream. Yeah. you know it's fun. It's dream. Yeah. Yeah. And uh and the first time you go Yeah. And uh and the first time you go Yeah. And uh and the first time you go there is like it's it's there is like it's it's there is like it's it's >> from the future. >> from the future. >> from the future. >> It's it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. >> And what kind of software did you write? >> And what kind of software did you write? >> And what kind of software did you write? >> Mostly order execution software. So the >> Mostly order execution software. So the >> Mostly order execution software. So the same software like that moves orders and same software like that moves orders and same software like that moves orders and buy what drives Binance today. buy what drives Binance today. buy what drives Binance today. >> Pretty much. pretty much. So it's the >> Pretty much. pretty much. So it's the >> Pretty much. pretty much. So it's the same same style like actually all the same same style like actually all the same same style like actually all the software I was involved with have no software I was involved with have no software I was involved with have no decision- making. decision- making. decision- making. >> So when you first and were exposed to >> So when you first and were exposed to >> So when you first and were exposed to this it was not like oh wow I love this this it was not like oh wow I love this this it was not like oh wow I love this >> this makes sense or was it more okay I'm >> this makes sense or was it more okay I'm >> this makes sense or was it more okay I'm asked to write this code and I asked to write this code and I asked to write this code and I understand the concept so let me just do understand the concept so let me just do understand the concept so let me just do it. Were you attracted to the subject it. Were you attracted to the subject it. Were you attracted to the subject matter or you just did it because it was matter or you just did it because it was matter or you just did it because it was your job? I first did it was because it your job? I first did it was because it your job? I first did it was because it was my job right I was so young I didn't was my job right I was so young I didn't was my job right I was so young I didn't know what all the different industries know what all the different industries know what all the different industries are and actually when I got to the are and actually when I got to the are and actually when I got to the company the company was giving me a company the company was giving me a company the company was giving me a project on working on dig uh digital project on working on dig uh digital project on working on dig uh digital imaging storage systems like know this imaging storage systems like know this imaging storage systems like know this basically iPhone photos app but for for basically iPhone photos app but for for basically iPhone photos app but for for for medical imaging uh for for Nikon for medical imaging uh for for Nikon for medical imaging uh for for Nikon >> but very soon the company's main main >> but very soon the company's main main >> but very soon the company's main main product is the order execution system product is the order execution system product is the order execution system right right right >> so I was involved in that and then that >> so I was involved in that and then that >> so I was involved in that and then that became the thing over my career and I became the thing over my career and I became the thing over my career and I like it uh because um it's it requires like it uh because um it's it requires like it uh because um it's it requires quite a lot of technical expertise quite a lot of technical expertise quite a lot of technical expertise everything is about efficiency making it everything is about efficiency making it everything is about efficiency making it go as fast as as possible uh process as go as fast as as possible uh process as go as fast as as possible uh process as low latency as possible right low latency as possible right low latency as possible right >> um that kind of appeals to me I'm an >> um that kind of appeals to me I'm an >> um that kind of appeals to me I'm an efficiency kind of driven guy like like efficiency kind of driven guy like like efficiency kind of driven guy like like subconsciously and just to double click subconsciously and just to double click subconsciously and just to double click on that when you look at high frequency on that when you look at high frequency on that when you look at high frequency trading organization the susanas the trading organization the susanas the trading organization the susanas the jumps they go to such a degree to jumps they go to such a degree to jumps they go to such a degree to basically optimize for efficiency and basically optimize for efficiency and basically optimize for efficiency and low latency all the way down to it's low latency all the way down to it's low latency all the way down to it's their own circuit breakers it's their their own circuit breakers it's their their own circuit breakers it's their own physical fiber infrastructure own physical fiber infrastructure own physical fiber infrastructure they're willing to sort of pay the price they're willing to sort of pay the price they're willing to sort of pay the price to just shave off a handful of to just shave off a handful of to just shave off a handful of milliseconds on either end. milliseconds on either end. milliseconds on either end. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How does that manifest in the software? >> How does that manifest in the software? >> How does that manifest in the software? So when you're writing that kind of So when you're writing that kind of So when you're writing that kind of software, how do you actually optimize software, how do you actually optimize software, how do you actually optimize for those boundary conditions in code? for those boundary conditions in code? for those boundary conditions in code? >> Yeah. Yeah. So well, there's quite a few >> Yeah. Yeah. So well, there's quite a few >> Yeah. Yeah. So well, there's quite a few levels, right? The first level you do is levels, right? The first level you do is levels, right? The first level you do is basically you write a software to be basically you write a software to be basically you write a software to be efficient and fast like no no slowness. efficient and fast like no no slowness. efficient and fast like no no slowness. Uh uh you want to remove all the Uh uh you want to remove all the Uh uh you want to remove all the database lookups. So you want to do database lookups. So you want to do database lookups. So you want to do everything in memory and then um you everything in memory and then um you everything in memory and then um you want to reduce any sort of additional want to reduce any sort of additional want to reduce any sort of additional computation. uh you want to simplify the computation. uh you want to simplify the computation. uh you want to simplify the risk checks pre especially pre-order pre risk checks pre especially pre-order pre risk checks pre especially pre-order pre pre-trade uh risk checks and then the pre-trade uh risk checks and then the pre-trade uh risk checks and then the more advanced versions you move on to more advanced versions you move on to more advanced versions you move on to like the FPGA which is a network chip like the FPGA which is a network chip like the FPGA which is a network chip card that's on the on on the on the on card that's on the on on the on the on card that's on the on on the on the on the network card on the what we call the the network card on the what we call the the network card on the what we call the ether ether card ether ether card ether ether card >> so that you don't have to go all the way >> so that you don't have to go all the way >> so that you don't have to go all the way up to memory and come all the way back up to memory and come all the way back up to memory and come all the way back down to the processor down to the processor down to the processor >> so back then when I was like still >> so back then when I was like still >> so back then when I was like still writing code like maybe 10 years ago writing code like maybe 10 years ago writing code like maybe 10 years ago that round trip is about 100 mill 100 that round trip is about 100 mill 100 that round trip is about 100 mill 100 microconds microconds microconds >> microcs yeah >> microcs yeah >> microcs yeah >> and then um by avoiding that you reduce >> and then um by avoiding that you reduce >> and then um by avoiding that you reduce down to 20 microconds right down to 20 microconds right down to 20 microconds right >> and then you move it to physical >> and then you move it to physical >> and then you move it to physical infrastructure you want a collocation infrastructure you want a collocation infrastructure you want a collocation right you want to right you want to right you want to >> why haven't these organizations like in >> why haven't these organizations like in >> why haven't these organizations like in the AI world for example with grock our the AI world for example with grock our the AI world for example with grock our big observation even 10 years ago when big observation even 10 years ago when big observation even 10 years ago when we were starting the business was this we were starting the business was this we were starting the business was this exact idea which is it's really exact idea which is it's really exact idea which is it's really inefficient for to sit in a GPU to go inefficient for to sit in a GPU to go inefficient for to sit in a GPU to go all the way up to HBM to come back down all the way up to HBM to come back down all the way up to HBM to come back down so let's just take SRAMM and just do so let's just take SRAMM and just do so let's just take SRAMM and just do everything here on chip right everything here on chip right everything here on chip right >> manage it with C to that technical >> manage it with C to that technical >> manage it with C to that technical problem made a lot of sense and very problem made a lot of sense and very problem made a lot of sense and very very fast for the decode phase of very fast for the decode phase of very fast for the decode phase of inference makes a ton of sense Why when inference makes a ton of sense Why when inference makes a ton of sense Why when so much money is on the line for high so much money is on the line for high so much money is on the line for high frequency trading, why did they never frequency trading, why did they never frequency trading, why did they never try their own custom silicon? I try their own custom silicon? I try their own custom silicon? I understand FPGAAS, but nobody really understand FPGAAS, but nobody really understand FPGAAS, but nobody really went to the point of actually saying went to the point of actually saying went to the point of actually saying here's a specific ASIC or did they and here's a specific ASIC or did they and here's a specific ASIC or did they and we just don't know about it. I don't we just don't know about it. I don't we just don't know about it. I don't think it exists on very large scale. Um think it exists on very large scale. Um think it exists on very large scale. Um the uh I think the algorithms change too the uh I think the algorithms change too the uh I think the algorithms change too often. So when you go to hardware like often. So when you go to hardware like often. So when you go to hardware like you want to design your own chip, uh it you want to design your own chip, uh it you want to design your own chip, uh it it is very efficient. is highly is very it is very efficient. is highly is very it is very efficient. is highly is very fast but when you want to change it uh fast but when you want to change it uh fast but when you want to change it uh it takes a long time right so when when it takes a long time right so when when it takes a long time right so when when you want to reprogram it I think FPJ you want to reprogram it I think FPJ you want to reprogram it I think FPJ already offers kind of the the best already offers kind of the the best already offers kind of the the best >> best of both the both worlds even FPGA >> best of both the both worlds even FPGA >> best of both the both worlds even FPGA you want to reprogram it the programming you want to reprogram it the programming you want to reprogram it the programming cycle is much is 10 times longer than cycle is much is 10 times longer than cycle is much is 10 times longer than software software software >> the company you worked at in Japan was >> the company you worked at in Japan was >> the company you worked at in Japan was it successful it successful it successful >> it's successful you got that company got >> it's successful you got that company got >> it's successful you got that company got sold to a NASDAQ listed company just sold to a NASDAQ listed company just sold to a NASDAQ listed company just before 2000 before 2000 before 2000 >> for a lot of money >> for a lot of money >> for a lot of money >> for like $52 million back then so that >> for like $52 million back then so that >> for like $52 million back then so that was decent money yeah was decent money yeah was decent money yeah >> and So, is that when you said, "Hey, >> and So, is that when you said, "Hey, >> and So, is that when you said, "Hey, hold on. There's something here." Or no, hold on. There's something here." Or no, hold on. There's something here." Or no, was it something else that happened? was it something else that happened? was it something else that happened? >> No. Uh, so at that time I was too young. >> No. Uh, so at that time I was too young. >> No. Uh, so at that time I was too young. I was like 20 something. Um, I was like 20 something. Um, I was like 20 something. Um, >> so you're working at this place. You're >> so you're working at this place. You're >> so you're working at this place. You're just a coder. just a coder. just a coder. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You're a salary man. >> You're a salary man. >> You're a salary man. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In Japanese terms, right? >> In Japanese terms, right? >> In Japanese terms, right? >> Salary man. Yeah. >> Salary man. Yeah. >> Salary man. Yeah. >> You're a salary man. So then walk us >> You're a salary man. So then walk us >> You're a salary man. So then walk us through what happens afterwards. through what happens afterwards. through what happens afterwards. >> So uh that company got sold. They >> So uh that company got sold. They >> So uh that company got sold. They acquired there was a lot of culture acquired there was a lot of culture acquired there was a lot of culture clashes between the parent company clashes between the parent company clashes between the parent company versus the original company. Um that's versus the original company. Um that's versus the original company. Um that's my first experience about you know how my first experience about you know how my first experience about you know how mergers may not work. mergers may not work. mergers may not work. >> Yeah. the the two managements were just >> Yeah. the the two managements were just >> Yeah. the the two managements were just clashing and then um uh the the same clashing and then um uh the the same clashing and then um uh the the same partners went to do a different company partners went to do a different company partners went to do a different company uh called building two um but now this uh called building two um but now this uh called building two um but now this partners the I didn't get any money but partners the I didn't get any money but partners the I didn't get any money but the partners got quite a bit of money the partners got quite a bit of money the partners got quite a bit of money now so they rented a very fancy office now so they rented a very fancy office now so they rented a very fancy office um that company only lasted a year uh it um that company only lasted a year uh it um that company only lasted a year uh it means that previous success doesn't means that previous success doesn't means that previous success doesn't guarantee future success guarantee future success guarantee future success >> in fact >> in fact >> in fact >> um so uh they spent a lot of money had a >> um so uh they spent a lot of money had a >> um so uh they spent a lot of money had a very nice office but has zero zero zero very nice office but has zero zero zero very nice office but has zero zero zero revenue so that folded within a year and revenue so that folded within a year and revenue so that folded within a year and that's 2001 and um so uh and early 2001 that's 2001 and um so uh and early 2001 that's 2001 and um so uh and early 2001 I was looking for new jobs and then I was looking for new jobs and then I was looking for new jobs and then Bloomberg was hiring and this is right Bloomberg was hiring and this is right Bloomberg was hiring and this is right before 911. Um I kind of got an offer before 911. Um I kind of got an offer before 911. Um I kind of got an offer before 911 and then 911 happened. I before 911 and then 911 happened. I before 911 and then 911 happened. I still haven't moved and then still haven't moved and then still haven't moved and then >> where was this to New York or >> where was this to New York or >> where was this to New York or >> this was in well I was still in Tokyo >> this was in well I was still in Tokyo >> this was in well I was still in Tokyo back then and then Bloomberg is in New back then and then Bloomberg is in New back then and then Bloomberg is in New York. The offer I was supposed York. The offer I was supposed York. The offer I was supposed >> The offer was in New York. >> The offer was in New York. >> The offer was in New York. >> The offer was in New York. So after 911 >> The offer was in New York. So after 911 >> The offer was in New York. So after 911 I called Bloomberg say hey is the job I called Bloomberg say hey is the job I called Bloomberg say hey is the job still there? Do you still want me to go? still there? Do you still want me to go? still there? Do you still want me to go? And they said well do you still want to And they said well do you still want to And they said well do you still want to come? I was like yeah okay. So then I come? I was like yeah okay. So then I come? I was like yeah okay. So then I went. So I went to New York in November went. So I went to New York in November went. So I went to New York in November of 2001. of 2001. of 2001. >> Wow. What was that like? >> Wow. What was that like? >> Wow. What was that like? >> The streets were pretty quiet. Um >> The streets were pretty quiet. Um >> The streets were pretty quiet. Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh but you know I was fine. I was >> And uh but you know I was fine. I was >> And uh but you know I was fine. I was you know um New York is a is New York you know um New York is a is New York you know um New York is a is New York was quiet for a few months but it became was quiet for a few months but it became was quiet for a few months but it became lively pretty quickly I think. So I lively pretty quickly I think. So I lively pretty quickly I think. So I didn't feel too much uh issues. didn't feel too much uh issues. didn't feel too much uh issues. >> Um um so I then went to New York and >> Um um so I then went to New York and >> Um um so I then went to New York and worked at Bloomberg for four years worked at Bloomberg for four years worked at Bloomberg for four years >> doing exact again the same thing. You're >> doing exact again the same thing. You're >> doing exact again the same thing. You're kind of a salary guy. You're working at kind of a salary guy. You're working at kind of a salary guy. You're working at a big company, a big company, a big company, >> salary, bonus, maybe some options or >> salary, bonus, maybe some options or >> salary, bonus, maybe some options or some phantom equity or something like some phantom equity or something like some phantom equity or something like that. that. that. >> Yeah. So, um I joined as a senior >> Yeah. So, um I joined as a senior >> Yeah. So, um I joined as a senior developer. Uh I was put into a team developer. Uh I was put into a team developer. Uh I was put into a team called uh tradebook futures. They just called uh tradebook futures. They just called uh tradebook futures. They just formed this team uh and uh they had a formed this team uh and uh they had a formed this team uh and uh they had a system that allowed people to trade system that allowed people to trade system that allowed people to trade futures on Bloomberg, but it wasn't it futures on Bloomberg, but it wasn't it futures on Bloomberg, but it wasn't it was like spread out. So, they collected was like spread out. So, they collected was like spread out. So, they collected that into into into one into one team that into into into one into one team that into into into one into one team >> and still no inkling of like that >> and still no inkling of like that >> and still no inkling of like that entrepreneurial bug. entrepreneurial bug. entrepreneurial bug. >> Not really. back then I was like nah I I >> Not really. back then I was like nah I I >> Not really. back then I was like nah I I worked worked worked >> what were you looking for stability like >> what were you looking for stability like >> what were you looking for stability like why like why Bloomberg being in New York why like why Bloomberg being in New York why like why Bloomberg being in New York like what was it like what was it like what was it >> I was just a young guy I was like I >> I was just a young guy I was like I >> I was just a young guy I was like I think I was like 24 20 24 25 okay think I was like 24 20 24 25 okay think I was like 24 20 24 25 okay >> so I was just a young guy trying to get >> so I was just a young guy trying to get >> so I was just a young guy trying to get a job you know uh experience different a job you know uh experience different a job you know uh experience different parts of the world and get and and just parts of the world and get and and just parts of the world and get and and just find my way through um I I knew I wasn't find my way through um I I knew I wasn't find my way through um I I knew I wasn't experienced enough to do experienced enough to do experienced enough to do entrepreneurship myself right so I was entrepreneurship myself right so I was entrepreneurship myself right so I was and I I was working a small company in and I I was working a small company in and I I was working a small company in Tokyo the company only had like 200 Tokyo the company only had like 200 Tokyo the company only had like 200 Bloomberg at the time had about 3,000 Bloomberg at the time had about 3,000 Bloomberg at the time had about 3,000 people. So to me that was a big company. people. So to me that was a big company. people. So to me that was a big company. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they fancy offices, fish tanks and >> And they fancy offices, fish tanks and >> And they fancy offices, fish tanks and free food and everything. Um so I joined free food and everything. Um so I joined free food and everything. Um so I joined as a senior developer. I got some good as a senior developer. I got some good as a senior developer. I got some good bosses. I got promoted three times in bosses. I got promoted three times in bosses. I got promoted three times in two years and then I was leading a team two years and then I was leading a team two years and then I was leading a team of 60 initially and then kind of grew to of 60 initially and then kind of grew to of 60 initially and then kind of grew to about 80 people. Um and that's when I about 80 people. Um and that's when I about 80 people. Um and that's when I became sort of a manager. Uh I no longer became sort of a manager. Uh I no longer became sort of a manager. Uh I no longer wrote code and I started wrote code and I started wrote code and I started >> the worst transition. >> the worst transition. >> the worst transition. >> The worst transition. Right. The worst. >> The worst transition. Right. The worst. >> The worst transition. Right. The worst. >> So um so that's kind of my Bloomberg >> So um so that's kind of my Bloomberg >> So um so that's kind of my Bloomberg experience. Yeah. So that and I Yeah. So experience. Yeah. So that and I Yeah. So experience. Yeah. So that and I Yeah. So I had to stay there for four years. I had to stay there for four years. I had to stay there for four years. >> And then you quit and moved to China. >> And then you quit and moved to China. >> And then you quit and moved to China. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> How does that happen? >> How does that happen? >> How does that happen? >> I think was wrong like uh beginning of >> I think was wrong like uh beginning of >> I think was wrong like uh beginning of 2005. Um again the same uh friends I had 2005. Um again the same uh friends I had 2005. Um again the same uh friends I had I made in Japan, they were talking about I made in Japan, they were talking about I made in Japan, they were talking about starting a new company, a new uh fintech starting a new company, a new uh fintech starting a new company, a new uh fintech company and they were in Asia, right? So company and they were in Asia, right? So company and they were in Asia, right? So they're talking about Tokyo, Shanghai or they're talking about Tokyo, Shanghai or they're talking about Tokyo, Shanghai or Hong Kong. And they said Shanghai is Hong Kong. And they said Shanghai is Hong Kong. And they said Shanghai is most likely the most happening place for most likely the most happening place for most likely the most happening place for the future of fintech. Um we should have the future of fintech. Um we should have the future of fintech. Um we should have picked Hong Kong. Hong Kong had a lot picked Hong Kong. Hong Kong had a lot picked Hong Kong. Hong Kong had a lot more happening since then. more happening since then. more happening since then. >> Um, so I went there in 2005. So the it >> Um, so I went there in 2005. So the it >> Um, so I went there in 2005. So the it was like five foreigners from a Chinese was like five foreigners from a Chinese was like five foreigners from a Chinese perspective. U five Caucasians, four perspective. U five Caucasians, four perspective. U five Caucasians, four Caucasians plus a Japanese plus me. I'm Caucasians plus a Japanese plus me. I'm Caucasians plus a Japanese plus me. I'm the only one who speaks Chinese and my the only one who speaks Chinese and my the only one who speaks Chinese and my Chinese was kind of rusty back then too. Chinese was kind of rusty back then too. Chinese was kind of rusty back then too. So the six of us went there to do a new So the six of us went there to do a new So the six of us went there to do a new IT start startup in Shanghai. IT start startup in Shanghai. IT start startup in Shanghai. >> You So all you guys just land there and >> You So all you guys just land there and >> You So all you guys just land there and what was the idea? So we thought you what was the idea? So we thought you what was the idea? So we thought you know we have all this Wall Street know we have all this Wall Street know we have all this Wall Street experience on Wall Street trading experience on Wall Street trading experience on Wall Street trading technology experience. technology experience. technology experience. >> So your other friends had they moved to >> So your other friends had they moved to >> So your other friends had they moved to New York or no they were still in Japan New York or no they were still in Japan New York or no they were still in Japan doing their own thing. doing their own thing. doing their own thing. >> Two of the friends were in New York with >> Two of the friends were in New York with >> Two of the friends were in New York with me and then um uh the other three were me and then um uh the other three were me and then um uh the other three were from Japan right they were there they from Japan right they were there they from Japan right they were there they always they were so the six of us came always they were so the six of us came always they were so the six of us came together and uh we wanted to do we want together and uh we wanted to do we want together and uh we wanted to do we want our idea was uh let's bring the wall our idea was uh let's bring the wall our idea was uh let's bring the wall street trading technology into China so street trading technology into China so street trading technology into China so we can service the brokers and exchanges we can service the brokers and exchanges we can service the brokers and exchanges in China. Um but then so we went they in China. Um but then so we went they in China. Um but then so we went they rented a very fancy office again. Uh rented a very fancy office again. Uh rented a very fancy office again. Uh >> wait okay so hold on just >> wait okay so hold on just >> wait okay so hold on just >> so when you guys start this company this >> so when you guys start this company this >> so when you guys start this company this so this is now your first so this is now your first so this is now your first entrepreneurial you're like okay let's entrepreneurial you're like okay let's entrepreneurial you're like okay let's do this do this do this >> pretty much >> pretty much >> pretty much >> did you know to even ask the question >> did you know to even ask the question >> did you know to even ask the question like okay guys what's our equity split like okay guys what's our equity split like okay guys what's our equity split what's the cap table did you know any of what's the cap table did you know any of what's the cap table did you know any of these things or you're just like great these things or you're just like great these things or you're just like great let's go do it I'm just assuming it's let's go do it I'm just assuming it's let's go do it I'm just assuming it's one sixth we're equal like how how did one sixth we're equal like how how did one sixth we're equal like how how did it all it all it all >> it wasn't one6 it was like the top guy >> it wasn't one6 it was like the top guy >> it wasn't one6 it was like the top guy had like I don't know 39 40% and the the had like I don't know 39 40% and the the had like I don't know 39 40% and the the the rest five of us split equally so I the rest five of us split equally so I the rest five of us split equally so I had about 11% % or so. had about 11% % or so. had about 11% % or so. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, I knew that, but I didn't know like, >> So, I knew that, but I didn't know like, >> So, I knew that, but I didn't know like, you know, all the ins and outs about, you know, all the ins and outs about, you know, all the ins and outs about, you know, shareholder rights, uh, what you know, shareholder rights, uh, what you know, shareholder rights, uh, what terms. I didn't know any of that. terms. I didn't know any of that. terms. I didn't know any of that. >> Yeah. Preferred versus common, none of >> Yeah. Preferred versus common, none of >> Yeah. Preferred versus common, none of it. it. it. >> And then I >> And then I >> And then I >> You're like, great, I got 11%. I'm >> You're like, great, I got 11%. I'm >> You're like, great, I got 11%. I'm moving to Shanghai. moving to Shanghai. moving to Shanghai. >> Yeah. So, I just have 11%. I didn't I >> Yeah. So, I just have 11%. I didn't I >> Yeah. So, I just have 11%. I didn't I have no idea what common stock is or have no idea what common stock is or have no idea what common stock is or versus preferred. So, uh, just went and versus preferred. So, uh, just went and versus preferred. So, uh, just went and then but so I was a junior partner in then but so I was a junior partner in then but so I was a junior partner in this group. And then, uh, once we landed this group. And then, uh, once we landed this group. And then, uh, once we landed in China, I start because I speak in China, I start because I speak in China, I start because I speak Chinese, right? So, I began talking to Chinese, right? So, I began talking to Chinese, right? So, I began talking to potential clients. I went to talk to potential clients. I went to talk to potential clients. I went to talk to brokers. I found out we are registered brokers. I found out we are registered brokers. I found out we are registered as a wholly foreigner owned uh what we as a wholly foreigner owned uh what we as a wholly foreigner owned uh what we call wolfie uh holy holy foreigner owned call wolfie uh holy holy foreigner owned call wolfie uh holy holy foreigner owned enterprise. enterprise. enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The Chinese brokers and financial >> The Chinese brokers and financial >> The Chinese brokers and financial institutions are not allowed to work institutions are not allowed to work institutions are not allowed to work with a wolfie. with a wolfie. with a wolfie. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> U so we found out after we started a >> U so we found out after we started a >> U so we found out after we started a company while we were in Shanghai and so company while we were in Shanghai and so company while we were in Shanghai and so the company pivoted towards doing um uh the company pivoted towards doing um uh the company pivoted towards doing um uh any any any IT system for any for any any any any IT system for any for any any any any IT system for any for any company. We can be like company. We can be like company. We can be like >> work for hire. >> work for hire. >> work for hire. >> Work for hire. We can be fix >> Work for hire. We can be fix >> Work for hire. We can be fix >> deote. You became deoid. uh not not even >> deote. You became deoid. uh not not even >> deote. You became deoid. uh not not even deoid we can be fixing printers or we deoid we can be fixing printers or we deoid we can be fixing printers or we can be writing like you [laughter] know can be writing like you [laughter] know can be writing like you [laughter] know SAP implementations for you we did all SAP implementations for you we did all SAP implementations for you we did all of that so there's a whole spectrum of of that so there's a whole spectrum of of that so there's a whole spectrum of things and so we did that for a few things and so we did that for a few things and so we did that for a few years and we actually made a living years and we actually made a living years and we actually made a living >> for a few years >> for a few years >> for a few years >> yeah for for for a few years like uh and >> yeah for for for a few years like uh and >> yeah for for for a few years like uh and we made a living out of that yeah we we we made a living out of that yeah we we we made a living out of that yeah we we started we had a quite a number of started we had a quite a number of started we had a quite a number of automotive clients uh the Shanghai automotive clients uh the Shanghai automotive clients uh the Shanghai General Motors uh Shanghai Works Wagon General Motors uh Shanghai Works Wagon General Motors uh Shanghai Works Wagon uh Shanghai first auto mo uh first uh Shanghai first auto mo uh first uh Shanghai first auto mo uh first automotive they were all clients of ours automotive they were all clients of ours automotive they were all clients of ours and like maybe three or four years in uh and like maybe three or four years in uh and like maybe three or four years in uh we started having offices in Hong Kong we started having offices in Hong Kong we started having offices in Hong Kong and then we were dealing with a Morgan and then we were dealing with a Morgan and then we were dealing with a Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Credit Swiss. Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Credit Swiss. Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Credit Swiss. >> So it grew so it was it was successful. >> So it grew so it was it was successful. >> So it grew so it was it was successful. >> The company is still around. The company >> The company is still around. The company >> The company is still around. The company is still around. So I I left in 2013 is still around. So I I left in 2013 is still around. So I I left in 2013 after 8 years. Um but the company is after 8 years. Um but the company is after 8 years. Um but the company is still around. still around. still around. >> So in the eight years you worked at that >> So in the eight years you worked at that >> So in the eight years you worked at that company all in Shanghai. company all in Shanghai. company all in Shanghai. >> I was mostly in Shanghai, but then I >> I was mostly in Shanghai, but then I >> I was mostly in Shanghai, but then I spent quite a bit of time helping to set spent quite a bit of time helping to set spent quite a bit of time helping to set up the Hong Kong office and then I was up the Hong Kong office and then I was up the Hong Kong office and then I was also doing quite a lot of work for some also doing quite a lot of work for some also doing quite a lot of work for some clients in in Tokyo. clients in in Tokyo. clients in in Tokyo. >> How big did that company get? I think >> How big did that company get? I think >> How big did that company get? I think even you got to about 200 people again even you got to about 200 people again even you got to about 200 people again and it's kind of stayed there for as for and it's kind of stayed there for as for and it's kind of stayed there for as for as as far as I know even till now. as as far as I know even till now. as as far as I know even till now. >> And so as a junior partner you just take >> And so as a junior partner you just take >> And so as a junior partner you just take profits and you share it like profits and you share it like profits and you share it like >> Yeah. Yeah. So uh uh well actually I we >> Yeah. Yeah. So uh uh well actually I we >> Yeah. Yeah. So uh uh well actually I we didn't take that much profits. Um I didn't take that much profits. Um I didn't take that much profits. Um I actually invested most of my savings actually invested most of my savings actually invested most of my savings back into that company and I actually back into that company and I actually back into that company and I actually didn't cash out a penny. Um but wow didn't cash out a penny. Um but wow didn't cash out a penny. Um but wow >> after a few years the company was uh s >> after a few years the company was uh s >> after a few years the company was uh s stable enough to pay the partner stable enough to pay the partner stable enough to pay the partner salaries that all of our kids go to salaries that all of our kids go to salaries that all of our kids go to international school. So we get a we get international school. So we get a we get international school. So we get a we get a we get a six figure salary. a we get a six figure salary. a we get a six figure salary. >> At that point you had gotten married. >> At that point you had gotten married. >> At that point you had gotten married. >> Yes. Yeah. So at that point uh uh Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. So at that point uh uh Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. So at that point uh uh Yeah. So at that point I got married when I So at that point I got married when I So at that point I got married when I was in New York. So like uh Yeah. So and was in New York. So like uh Yeah. So and was in New York. So like uh Yeah. So and then u uh Yeah. So we I had two kids. then u uh Yeah. So we I had two kids. then u uh Yeah. So we I had two kids. >> And you had met your ex-wife. How? >> And you had met your ex-wife. How? >> And you had met your ex-wife. How? >> Yeah. I met her I met her in in in Tokyo >> Yeah. I met her I met her in in in Tokyo >> Yeah. I met her I met her in in in Tokyo when I first went to Tokyo. So I met her when I first went to Tokyo. So I met her when I first went to Tokyo. So I met her in 1999ish in 1999ish in 1999ish um when I when I was first in Tokyo like um when I when I was first in Tokyo like um when I when I was first in Tokyo like doing the interns. doing the interns. doing the interns. >> Okay. And then um uh she visited me in >> Okay. And then um uh she visited me in >> Okay. And then um uh she visited me in New York and then you know we got New York and then you know we got New York and then you know we got married and then uh we had kids now we married and then uh we had kids now we married and then uh we had kids now we are separated or we're divorced in are separated or we're divorced in are separated or we're divorced in Shanghai. I had young kids and you know Shanghai. I had young kids and you know Shanghai. I had young kids and you know it was enough salary to put the kids it was enough salary to put the kids it was enough salary to put the kids into into international school and that into into international school and that into into international school and that was that was good enough for me. was that was good enough for me. was that was good enough for me. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So far again >> So far again >> So far again >> nothing here tells anybody that you're >> nothing here tells anybody that you're >> nothing here tells anybody that you're about to go and start Binance. about to go and start Binance. about to go and start Binance. >> No no nothing >> No no nothing >> No no nothing >> nothing. No I didn't know. So then 2013 >> nothing. No I didn't know. So then 2013 >> nothing. No I didn't know. So then 2013 2014, 2014, 2014, how old were you then at that point? You how old were you then at that point? You how old were you then at that point? You were were were >> uh 20 2013 I I would be 36. >> uh 20 2013 I I would be 36. >> uh 20 2013 I I would be 36. >> Yeah. Mid-30s. >> Yeah. Mid-30s. >> Yeah. Mid-30s. >> Yeah. Yeah. So >> Yeah. Yeah. So >> Yeah. Yeah. So >> So again, salary guy. >> So again, salary guy. >> So again, salary guy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Junior partner at this thing. It's going >> Junior partner at this thing. It's going >> Junior partner at this thing. It's going well. Your kids are in private school. well. Your kids are in private school. well. Your kids are in private school. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So then what happens? >> So then what happens? >> So then what happens? >> So then uh I came across Bitcoin, right? >> So then uh I came across Bitcoin, right? >> So then uh I came across Bitcoin, right? So um well, one of my friends tells me, So um well, one of my friends tells me, So um well, one of my friends tells me, "Look, see, you got to look at this "Look, see, you got to look at this "Look, see, you got to look at this thing called Bitcoin." I look into it. I thing called Bitcoin." I look into it. I thing called Bitcoin." I look into it. I was like uh it took me about roughly six was like uh it took me about roughly six was like uh it took me about roughly six months to fully understand it. So that months to fully understand it. So that months to fully understand it. So that was from like roughly July 2013 was from like roughly July 2013 was from like roughly July 2013 >> and that's because you read the white >> and that's because you read the white >> and that's because you read the white paper and you said I need to read it paper and you said I need to read it paper and you said I need to read it again and read it again or again and read it again or again and read it again or >> Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And then um >> Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And then um >> Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And then um because back then there was the Bitcoin because back then there was the Bitcoin because back then there was the Bitcoin talk or forum and then that's pretty talk or forum and then that's pretty talk or forum and then that's pretty much it. much it. much it. >> But did you see my Bloomberg article in >> But did you see my Bloomberg article in >> But did you see my Bloomberg article in 2012? Is that that had any influence? 2012? Is that that had any influence? 2012? Is that that had any influence? >> Unfortunately, I don't I I read a bunch >> Unfortunately, I don't I I read a bunch >> Unfortunately, I don't I I read a bunch of stuff. I actually don't remember what of stuff. I actually don't remember what of stuff. I actually don't remember what I I I >> I'm just kidding. But I did write this >> I'm just kidding. But I did write this >> I'm just kidding. But I did write this thing and it's funny because I had a thing and it's funny because I had a thing and it's funny because I had a kind of a relationship with Mike kind of a relationship with Mike kind of a relationship with Mike Bloomberg. was kind of not even mentor Bloomberg. was kind of not even mentor Bloomberg. was kind of not even mentor like he was just too senior but like he was just too senior but like he was just too senior but >> he knew me he liked me he would invite >> he knew me he liked me he would invite >> he knew me he liked me he would invite me to certain things me to certain things me to certain things >> with Mike Bloomberg >> with Mike Bloomberg >> with Mike Bloomberg >> yeah with Bloomberg and and then I got >> yeah with Bloomberg and and then I got >> yeah with Bloomberg and and then I got to know some of Mike's team to know some of Mike's team to know some of Mike's team >> and in 2012 or so they said would you >> and in 2012 or so they said would you >> and in 2012 or so they said would you write an op-ed write an op-ed write an op-ed >> okay >> okay >> okay >> and I was like yeah and I wrote it about >> and I was like yeah and I wrote it about >> and I was like yeah and I wrote it about Bitcoin and I said everybody should put Bitcoin and I said everybody should put Bitcoin and I said everybody should put 1% of their net worth into Bitcoin and I 1% of their net worth into Bitcoin and I 1% of their net worth into Bitcoin and I said it's basically schmuck insurance said it's basically schmuck insurance said it's basically schmuck insurance >> and then they published it in the >> and then they published it in the >> and then they published it in the Bloomberg terminal or whatever and Bloomberg terminal or whatever and Bloomberg terminal or whatever and that's when I got redpilled on Bitcoin that's when I got redpilled on Bitcoin that's when I got redpilled on Bitcoin where I was like man it's the most where I was like man it's the most where I was like man it's the most incredibly interesting technical product incredibly interesting technical product incredibly interesting technical product that I had read about and I think the that I had read about and I think the that I had read about and I think the thing that captivated me I don't know if thing that captivated me I don't know if thing that captivated me I don't know if you felt this way it was the only white you felt this way it was the only white you felt this way it was the only white paper that I read end to end where I paper that I read end to end where I paper that I read end to end where I thought this is one of the most thought this is one of the most thought this is one of the most elegantly written pieces of elegantly written pieces of elegantly written pieces of non-technical pros do you know what I'm non-technical pros do you know what I'm non-technical pros do you know what I'm trying to say like it's not trying to say like it's not trying to say like it's not >> something that is like dense and an >> something that is like dense and an >> something that is like dense and an archive that is just meant for PhDs archive that is just meant for PhDs archive that is just meant for PhDs >> you could literally give it to your >> you could literally give it to your >> you could literally give it to your sister to your brother to somebody sister to your brother to somebody sister to your brother to somebody non-technical And they would understand non-technical And they would understand non-technical And they would understand it. it. it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's only nine pages. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's only nine pages. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's only nine pages. >> And exactly. You know what an enormous >> And exactly. You know what an enormous >> And exactly. You know what an enormous amount of intellectual skill it takes to amount of intellectual skill it takes to amount of intellectual skill it takes to do that. do that. do that. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's much harder >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's much harder >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's much harder to write it very short. to write it very short. to write it very short. >> Much harder and elegantly and simply. >> Much harder and elegantly and simply. >> Much harder and elegantly and simply. >> Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else try to rewrite >> Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else try to rewrite >> Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else try to rewrite that? I think it' be 90 pages. that? I think it' be 90 pages. that? I think it' be 90 pages. >> So the friend that showed it to you, was >> So the friend that showed it to you, was >> So the friend that showed it to you, was he a co-orker of yours or no? Just a he a co-orker of yours or no? Just a he a co-orker of yours or no? Just a random friend in Shanghai. random friend in Shanghai. random friend in Shanghai. >> It's a friend. It's a it's a it's a >> It's a friend. It's a it's a it's a >> It's a friend. It's a it's a it's a random Well, not a random. He's a random Well, not a random. He's a random Well, not a random. He's a friend. Uh we don't have any working friend. Uh we don't have any working friend. Uh we don't have any working relationships. His name is Ron Tao. He relationships. His name is Ron Tao. He relationships. His name is Ron Tao. He runs uh I guess now Skyline Ventures. runs uh I guess now Skyline Ventures. runs uh I guess now Skyline Ventures. And back then he he was at Lightseed And back then he he was at Lightseed And back then he he was at Lightseed Ventures Ventures Ventures >> of course >> of course >> of course >> he was a managing director of Lightseed >> he was a managing director of Lightseed >> he was a managing director of Lightseed Ventures in China. Ventures in China. Ventures in China. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So we play we have a poker house game >> So we play we have a poker house game >> So we play we have a poker house game like you know small stakes. Um a bunch like you know small stakes. Um a bunch like you know small stakes. Um a bunch of uh I a bunch of entrepreneur like of uh I a bunch of entrepreneur like of uh I a bunch of entrepreneur like struggling entrepreneurs versus like struggling entrepreneurs versus like struggling entrepreneurs versus like VCs. Uh so the VCs have all the money VCs. Uh so the VCs have all the money VCs. Uh so the VCs have all the money and all and all and all >> David versus [laughter] >> David versus [laughter] >> David versus [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So but you know it's it's a fun it's a >> So but you know it's it's a fun it's a >> So but you know it's it's a fun it's a fun game. It's not a very serious game. fun game. It's not a very serious game. fun game. It's not a very serious game. So on in one of the poker games uh Ron So on in one of the poker games uh Ron So on in one of the poker games uh Ron says CD you should look at this thing says CD you should look at this thing says CD you should look at this thing called Bitcoin. I was like, "Okay, called Bitcoin. I was like, "Okay, called Bitcoin. I was like, "Okay, Bitcoin." Okay. So, uh, and so we talked Bitcoin." Okay. So, uh, and so we talked Bitcoin." Okay. So, uh, and so we talked about it a little bit and then Bobby about it a little bit and then Bobby about it a little bit and then Bobby Lee, uh, who was at the time was working Lee, uh, who was at the time was working Lee, uh, who was at the time was working for Walmart, was just about to quit for Walmart, was just about to quit for Walmart, was just about to quit Walmart to join BTC China to become Walmart to join BTC China to become Walmart to join BTC China to become their CEO. And, uh, their CEO. And, uh, their CEO. And, uh, >> uh, as part of that deal, Bobby said he >> uh, as part of that deal, Bobby said he >> uh, as part of that deal, Bobby said he will bring Ron in as an investor, will bring Ron in as an investor, will bring Ron in as an investor, Lightseed into Lightseed into Lightseed into >> into BT BTCC >> into BT BTCC >> into BT BTCC >> into BTCC. So, that's in two uh, July >> into BTCC. So, that's in two uh, July >> into BTCC. So, that's in two uh, July 2013. I was like, okay. So, they two 2013. I was like, okay. So, they two 2013. I was like, okay. So, they two guys are pretty serious about this. So I guys are pretty serious about this. So I guys are pretty serious about this. So I had lunch with Bobby the next day and had lunch with Bobby the next day and had lunch with Bobby the next day and Bobby said put 10% of your net worth Bobby said put 10% of your net worth Bobby said put 10% of your net worth into Bitcoin. He said there's a small into Bitcoin. He said there's a small into Bitcoin. He said there's a small chance you will go to zero then you lose chance you will go to zero then you lose chance you will go to zero then you lose 10%. Uh there's a much higher chance you 10%. Uh there's a much higher chance you 10%. Uh there's a much higher chance you will go 10x and you'll double your net will go 10x and you'll double your net will go 10x and you'll double your net worth. I was like okay sounds pretty worth. I was like okay sounds pretty worth. I was like okay sounds pretty serious. So u that's when I started serious. So u that's when I started serious. So u that's when I started learning about reading the white paper learning about reading the white paper learning about reading the white paper more carefully. Took me six months. Uh more carefully. Took me six months. Uh more carefully. Took me six months. Uh so it was till the end of 2013 I started so it was till the end of 2013 I started so it was till the end of 2013 I started like I'm I'm convinced now. I'm ready to like I'm I'm convinced now. I'm ready to like I'm I'm convinced now. I'm ready to go. But then Bitcoin went from $70 in go. But then Bitcoin went from $70 in go. But then Bitcoin went from $70 in mid 2013 to like $1,000 by end of 2013. mid 2013 to like $1,000 by end of 2013. mid 2013 to like $1,000 by end of 2013. So you already went more than like 15x. So you already went more than like 15x. So you already went more than like 15x. >> How did that make you feel? >> How did that make you feel? >> How did that make you feel? >> I was like, I'm I'm too late. >> I was like, I'm I'm too late. >> I was like, I'm I'm too late. >> I was like, I wish I got in early. >> I was like, I wish I got in early. >> I was like, I wish I got in early. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cuz when back then, right? No. Doesn't >> Cuz when back then, right? No. Doesn't >> Cuz when back then, right? No. Doesn't matter when you get into Bitcoin, you matter when you get into Bitcoin, you matter when you get into Bitcoin, you always feel late. always feel late. always feel late. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because everyone you talk to has >> Right. Because everyone you talk to has >> Right. Because everyone you talk to has in the Bitcoin industry has bought in the Bitcoin industry has bought in the Bitcoin industry has bought before you. before you. before you. >> And did you talk to anybody while you >> And did you talk to anybody while you >> And did you talk to anybody while you were learning about it to say like you were learning about it to say like you were learning about it to say like you have a community in in Shanghai? there's have a community in in Shanghai? there's have a community in in Shanghai? there's a comm there's a very small community in a comm there's a very small community in a comm there's a very small community in Shanghai and then I was basically Shanghai and then I was basically Shanghai and then I was basically talking to anybody in the world that's talking to anybody in the world that's talking to anybody in the world that's that's willing to talk with me uh and that's willing to talk with me uh and that's willing to talk with me uh and then I had a couple friends in Taiwan then I had a couple friends in Taiwan then I had a couple friends in Taiwan they used to they they worked for TSMC they used to they they worked for TSMC they used to they they worked for TSMC back then uh because and then they were back then uh because and then they were back then uh because and then they were trying to do a mining chip uh for for trying to do a mining chip uh for for trying to do a mining chip uh for for Bitcoin so two of those guys left TSMC Bitcoin so two of those guys left TSMC Bitcoin so two of those guys left TSMC try to do this startup startup never try to do this startup startup never try to do this startup startup never never really took off but that was one never really took off but that was one never really took off but that was one group of guys I was talking to um there group of guys I was talking to um there group of guys I was talking to um there was uh another couple they were mostly was uh another couple they were mostly was uh another couple they were mostly minors there was another guy called um minors there was another guy called um minors there was another guy called um his nickname is fish uh silver fish uh his nickname is fish uh silver fish uh his nickname is fish uh silver fish uh in China. He's like a big minor. He's in China. He's like a big minor. He's in China. He's like a big minor. He's runs the F2 pool even today. runs the F2 pool even today. runs the F2 pool even today. >> Oh sure. >> Oh sure. >> Oh sure. >> So those guys were based in Hondro um >> So those guys were based in Hondro um >> So those guys were based in Hondro um you know I went they came to Shanghai I you know I went they came to Shanghai I you know I went they came to Shanghai I talked to them etc. So there was a group talked to them etc. So there was a group talked to them etc. So there was a group of guys that you talked to and then uh of guys that you talked to and then uh of guys that you talked to and then uh the biggest thing was um in December the biggest thing was um in December the biggest thing was um in December 2013 December 13th 2013ish there was a 2013 December 13th 2013ish there was a 2013 December 13th 2013ish there was a Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas. I flew Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas. I flew Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas. I flew there um to meet everyone everyone in there um to meet everyone everyone in there um to meet everyone everyone in the industry was there. Uh there was a the industry was there. Uh there was a the industry was there. Uh there was a 200 people conference. Uh Vitalik was 200 people conference. Uh Vitalik was 200 people conference. Uh Vitalik was there, Matt Rosak was there, Charlie Lee there, Matt Rosak was there, Charlie Lee there, Matt Rosak was there, Charlie Lee was there, uh um bunch of guys were was there, uh um bunch of guys were was there, uh um bunch of guys were there. Um and the same same guys still there. Um and the same same guys still there. Um and the same same guys still today. Um but and then at the time just today. Um but and then at the time just today. Um but and then at the time just before that it was the Silk Road arrest before that it was the Silk Road arrest before that it was the Silk Road arrest of uh Ross of uh Ross of uh Ross >> Wubber. >> Wubber. >> Wubber. >> So the media was like no this Bitcoin is >> So the media was like no this Bitcoin is >> So the media was like no this Bitcoin is only used by drug lords. only used by drug lords. only used by drug lords. >> Um and when you go to the conference it >> Um and when you go to the conference it >> Um and when you go to the conference it was like a bunch of kids, a bunch of was like a bunch of kids, a bunch of was like a bunch of kids, a bunch of geeks geeks and they're very nice geeks geeks and they're very nice geeks geeks and they're very nice people, right? So you talk to Vitalic, people, right? So you talk to Vitalic, people, right? So you talk to Vitalic, you know, you know, he's a very nice you know, you know, he's a very nice you know, you know, he's a very nice person. person. person. >> Were you still working at that company >> Were you still working at that company >> Were you still working at that company while you were doing all of this while you were doing all of this while you were doing all of this moonlighting? moonlighting? moonlighting? >> Yes. So this is what this is kind of the >> Yes. So this is what this is kind of the >> Yes. So this is what this is kind of the >> You tell your partners, hey guys, I'm >> You tell your partners, hey guys, I'm >> You tell your partners, hey guys, I'm just going to go to Vegas for a couple just going to go to Vegas for a couple just going to go to Vegas for a couple days. I'll be back. days. I'll be back. days. I'll be back. >> Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And then um and >> Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And then um and >> Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And then um and then when I got back, I told the then when I got back, I told the then when I got back, I told the partners, I we should do a Bitcoin partners, I we should do a Bitcoin partners, I we should do a Bitcoin payment system because Bit Pay was kind payment system because Bit Pay was kind payment system because Bit Pay was kind of the big player back then. Uh Bit Pay of the big player back then. Uh Bit Pay of the big player back then. Uh Bit Pay just raised $4 million US in 2013. just raised $4 million US in 2013. just raised $4 million US in 2013. >> So they was kind of the uh the large >> So they was kind of the uh the large >> So they was kind of the uh the large player player player >> actually in the employee. >> actually in the employee. >> actually in the employee. >> Can I tell you a very funny bit? I have >> Can I tell you a very funny bit? I have >> Can I tell you a very funny bit? I have two Bit Pay stories. two Bit Pay stories. two Bit Pay stories. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> I was very focused on trying to prove >> I was very focused on trying to prove >> I was very focused on trying to prove the transactional capability of Bitcoin. the transactional capability of Bitcoin. the transactional capability of Bitcoin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I went to my local car dealership >> I went to my local car dealership >> I went to my local car dealership >> and I bought a car with Bitcoin using >> and I bought a car with Bitcoin using >> and I bought a car with Bitcoin using Bitay in 201 12 or 13. Wow. Bitay in 201 12 or 13. Wow. Bitay in 201 12 or 13. Wow. >> That Range Rover is probably $90 >> That Range Rover is probably $90 >> That Range Rover is probably $90 million. And then even more stupidly, million. And then even more stupidly, million. And then even more stupidly, there was a real estate development in there was a real estate development in there was a real estate development in Lake Tahoe. Lake Tahoe. Lake Tahoe. >> Yeah. called Martis Camp. Beautiful. And >> Yeah. called Martis Camp. Beautiful. And >> Yeah. called Martis Camp. Beautiful. And I had owned a couple of lots and I said, I had owned a couple of lots and I said, I had owned a couple of lots and I said, you know, it would be great if I you know, it would be great if I you know, it would be great if I actually could prove that you could buy actually could prove that you could buy actually could prove that you could buy real estate with Bitcoin. real estate with Bitcoin. real estate with Bitcoin. >> And I called the guys at Bit Pay and >> And I called the guys at Bit Pay and >> And I called the guys at Bit Pay and they were like, yeah, we can facilitate they were like, yeah, we can facilitate they were like, yeah, we can facilitate this transaction. No problem. I bought a this transaction. No problem. I bought a this transaction. No problem. I bought a piece of land. And then again, I thought piece of land. And then again, I thought piece of land. And then again, I thought this is an interesting story. And the this is an interesting story. And the this is an interesting story. And the Wall Street Journal wrote about it. And Wall Street Journal wrote about it. And Wall Street Journal wrote about it. And now that piece of land is a billion now that piece of land is a billion now that piece of land is a billion dollars, dollars, dollars, >> but you you cannot calculate this way, >> but you you cannot calculate this way, >> but you you cannot calculate this way, right? So right? So right? So >> it's easy. I calculate it this way every >> it's easy. I calculate it this way every >> it's easy. I calculate it this way every day. day. day. >> You can't calculate it that way because >> You can't calculate it that way because >> You can't calculate it that way because the stupidest purchase ever. the stupidest purchase ever. the stupidest purchase ever. >> No. No. No, no, no. That's this that's >> No. No. No, no, no. That's this that's >> No. No. No, no, no. That's this that's the bucket of money mentality, right? the bucket of money mentality, right? the bucket of money mentality, right? >> No, no, no. It's true. >> No, no, no. It's true. >> No, no, no. It's true. >> Right. So, even if you didn't use >> Right. So, even if you didn't use >> Right. So, even if you didn't use Bitcoin, you would have used some money Bitcoin, you would have used some money Bitcoin, you would have used some money to some to some to some >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> buy the land. You could have used that >> buy the land. You could have used that >> buy the land. You could have used that money to buy Bitcoin. money to buy Bitcoin. money to buy Bitcoin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. So, Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. So, Yeah. Yeah. >> So, you're like, "Hey, we should do a >> So, you're like, "Hey, we should do a >> So, you're like, "Hey, we should do a version of BitBay." version of BitBay." version of BitBay." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And your partners are like, "What are >> And your partners are like, "What are >> And your partners are like, "What are you talking about?" you talking about?" you talking about?" >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And now, at this point, you still hadn't >> And now, at this point, you still hadn't >> And now, at this point, you still hadn't bought any Bitcoin. bought any Bitcoin. bought any Bitcoin. >> No. At this point, like I had like maybe >> No. At this point, like I had like maybe >> No. At this point, like I had like maybe one Bitcoin. one Bitcoin. one Bitcoin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And one Bitcoin is like only a >> Yeah. And one Bitcoin is like only a >> Yeah. And one Bitcoin is like only a thousand bucks back then. Yeah. So, thousand bucks back then. Yeah. So, thousand bucks back then. Yeah. So, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, then what happens? And then so but >> So, then what happens? And then so but >> So, then what happens? And then so but and then so I tell my partner look I and then so I tell my partner look I and then so I tell my partner look I think this is this is the biggest this think this is this is the biggest this think this is this is the biggest this is the biggest thing in my life right so is the biggest thing in my life right so is the biggest thing in my life right so when I think there's three fundamental when I think there's three fundamental when I think there's three fundamental back then I realized there was like two back then I realized there was like two back then I realized there was like two fundamental technologies in my life this fundamental technologies in my life this fundamental technologies in my life this the internet I was too young to do too the internet I was too young to do too the internet I was too young to do too much with it and there was this Bitcoin much with it and there was this Bitcoin much with it and there was this Bitcoin thing and I wasn't I was 35 36 I wasn't thing and I wasn't I was 35 36 I wasn't thing and I wasn't I was 35 36 I wasn't going to miss it the next thing that's going to miss it the next thing that's going to miss it the next thing that's going to come along is going to be 15 going to come along is going to be 15 going to come along is going to be 15 years later years later years later >> you feel old when you go to Vegas and >> you feel old when you go to Vegas and >> you feel old when you go to Vegas and you see all these young 22 year old kids you see all these young 22 year old kids you see all these young 22 year old kids and you're like I missed it did you and you're like I missed it did you and you're like I missed it did you think that at any point or think that at any point or think that at any point or >> no 35 36 is still okay. Okay. So, it's >> no 35 36 is still okay. Okay. So, it's >> no 35 36 is still okay. Okay. So, it's still like doable. Uh you know, you still like doable. Uh you know, you still like doable. Uh you know, you don't feel super old. Today I feel that don't feel super old. Today I feel that don't feel super old. Today I feel that >> but I thought the next thing that that >> but I thought the next thing that that >> but I thought the next thing that that will come will be 10 15 years later and will come will be 10 15 years later and will come will be 10 15 years later and with that's AI, right? So, today I say with that's AI, right? So, today I say with that's AI, right? So, today I say like there's three fundamental like there's three fundamental like there's three fundamental technologies in my life. But back then technologies in my life. But back then technologies in my life. But back then like that's the that's the [snorts] like that's the that's the [snorts] like that's the that's the [snorts] that's the thing, that's the thing, that's the thing, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So for me it was very clear I got to I >> So for me it was very clear I got to I >> So for me it was very clear I got to I got to do something in this industry, got to do something in this industry, got to do something in this industry, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So u and uh so I told my partners look >> So u and uh so I told my partners look >> So u and uh so I told my partners look I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to quit uh and I'm going to do work in the quit uh and I'm going to do work in the quit uh and I'm going to do work in the Bitcoin industry. That's what it's Bitcoin industry. That's what it's Bitcoin industry. That's what it's called back then. And then um uh and called back then. And then um uh and called back then. And then um uh and then I was I also need to buy Bitcoin then I was I also need to buy Bitcoin then I was I also need to buy Bitcoin and I don't have many money so um I and I don't have many money so um I and I don't have many money so um I don't have so I just I said look I'm don't have so I just I said look I'm don't have so I just I said look I'm going to sell my apartment in Shanghai going to sell my apartment in Shanghai going to sell my apartment in Shanghai and then buy Bitcoin but selling the and then buy Bitcoin but selling the and then buy Bitcoin but selling the apartment takes time. So it took me like apartment takes time. So it took me like apartment takes time. So it took me like a a solid few months to sell it and it a a solid few months to sell it and it a a solid few months to sell it and it was it was only was it was only was it was only >> you sold it where did you just got a >> you sold it where did you just got a >> you sold it where did you just got a rental apartment? rental apartment? rental apartment? >> I sold it at uh at the time actually my >> I sold it at uh at the time actually my >> I sold it at uh at the time actually my family also moved to Tokyo. So my family family also moved to Tokyo. So my family family also moved to Tokyo. So my family moved to Tokyo. We lived in a rental moved to Tokyo. We lived in a rental moved to Tokyo. We lived in a rental apartment. Um so apartment. Um so apartment. Um so >> in Tokyo >> in Tokyo >> in Tokyo >> in Tokyo. Uh and then I was traveling in >> in Tokyo. Uh and then I was traveling in >> in Tokyo. Uh and then I was traveling in Shanghai. So that's kind of the time I Shanghai. So that's kind of the time I Shanghai. So that's kind of the time I started moving started separating from started moving started separating from started moving started separating from uh from the from from the family as uh from the from from the family as uh from the from from the family as well. So I was spending a lot of time well. So I was spending a lot of time well. So I was spending a lot of time traveling, traveling, traveling, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And uh so I sold the apartment and for >> And uh so I sold the apartment and for >> And uh so I sold the apartment and for roughly $900,000 like just under a roughly $900,000 like just under a roughly $900,000 like just under a million bucks. Um, and then started million bucks. Um, and then started million bucks. Um, and then started buying and I got paid in trenches buying and I got paid in trenches buying and I got paid in trenches because, you know, you get a first down because, you know, you get a first down because, you know, you get a first down payment, you got paid in trenches and payment, you got paid in trenches and payment, you got paid in trenches and every trench I get, I just buy. The every trench I get, I just buy. The every trench I get, I just buy. The first trench at $800 and then Bitcoin is first trench at $800 and then Bitcoin is first trench at $800 and then Bitcoin is dropping $600, $400. Kind of averaged to dropping $600, $400. Kind of averaged to dropping $600, $400. Kind of averaged to about $600. about $600. about $600. >> Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. >> Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. >> Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. >> So now you have your Bitcoin position, >> So now you have your Bitcoin position, >> So now you have your Bitcoin position, but you still don't have a job. but you still don't have a job. but you still don't have a job. >> Yeah. Well, I was looking for a job at >> Yeah. Well, I was looking for a job at >> Yeah. Well, I was looking for a job at the same time, but you were looking for the same time, but you were looking for the same time, but you were looking for a job in the Bitcoin industry or you a job in the Bitcoin industry or you a job in the Bitcoin industry or you were just looking for any job were just looking for any job were just looking for any job >> in the Bitcoin industry. That was very >> in the Bitcoin industry. That was very >> in the Bitcoin industry. That was very specific. Um, it didn't take me that specific. Um, it didn't take me that specific. Um, it didn't take me that long to get a job. Uh you like the gap long to get a job. Uh you like the gap long to get a job. Uh you like the gap was pro from the time I said I'm going was pro from the time I said I'm going was pro from the time I said I'm going to quit until I finalized the job was to quit until I finalized the job was to quit until I finalized the job was probably about two to three weeks. probably about two to three weeks. probably about two to three weeks. >> Oh wow. Yeah. >> Oh wow. Yeah. >> Oh wow. Yeah. >> And so who hired you? >> And so who hired you? >> And so who hired you? >> I first discussed with BTCC Bobby he >> I first discussed with BTCC Bobby he >> I first discussed with BTCC Bobby he wanted to hire me and then um uh but wanted to hire me and then um uh but wanted to hire me and then um uh but then uh blockchain info came along. Uh I then uh blockchain info came along. Uh I then uh blockchain info came along. Uh I bumped into Roger Ver so and then he at bumped into Roger Ver so and then he at bumped into Roger Ver so and then he at the time blockchain uh blockchain info the time blockchain uh blockchain info the time blockchain uh blockchain info was I was the third person to join the was I was the third person to join the was I was the third person to join the blockchain info team. There was a uh Ben blockchain info team. There was a uh Ben blockchain info team. There was a uh Ben Reefs who's a founder and there was Reefs who's a founder and there was Reefs who's a founder and there was Nicholas Kerry who was just the C hired Nicholas Kerry who was just the C hired Nicholas Kerry who was just the C hired the CEO the CEO the CEO >> and I was like the third guy in so I was >> and I was like the third guy in so I was >> and I was like the third guy in so I was like VP of engineering because Ben we like VP of engineering because Ben we like VP of engineering because Ben we want to reserve the CO title for Ben. want to reserve the CO title for Ben. want to reserve the CO title for Ben. >> So uh uh so yeah I joined I I joined uh >> So uh uh so yeah I joined I I joined uh >> So uh uh so yeah I joined I I joined uh blockchain info. I flew to uh York in blockchain info. I flew to uh York in blockchain info. I flew to uh York in London like three hours north of New uh London like three hours north of New uh London like three hours north of New uh London. Um uh I spent some time there London. Um uh I spent some time there London. Um uh I spent some time there you know figuring out what to do. Yeah. you know figuring out what to do. Yeah. you know figuring out what to do. Yeah. >> And how did that go? >> And how did that go? >> And how did that go? >> Uh that didn't go very well. We expanded >> Uh that didn't go very well. We expanded >> Uh that didn't go very well. We expanded the team to 18 people and then um Peter the team to 18 people and then um Peter the team to 18 people and then um Peter Smith joined uh as a CFO wanting to Smith joined uh as a CFO wanting to Smith joined uh as a CFO wanting to raise money for blockchain evil. raise money for blockchain evil. raise money for blockchain evil. Coinbase just finished raising at Coinbase just finished raising at Coinbase just finished raising at raising around at 30 raising $30 raising around at 30 raising $30 raising around at 30 raising $30 million. Um and that was a big one in million. Um and that was a big one in million. Um and that was a big one in the industry back then. Um Peter Smith the industry back then. Um Peter Smith the industry back then. Um Peter Smith somehow maneuvered himself into the CEO somehow maneuvered himself into the CEO somehow maneuvered himself into the CEO position pushing like Nicholas Kerry to position pushing like Nicholas Kerry to position pushing like Nicholas Kerry to the product manager kind of role. Um but the product manager kind of role. Um but the product manager kind of role. Um but the culture kind of changed a little the culture kind of changed a little the culture kind of changed a little bit. So um uh I left um a bunch of the bit. So um uh I left um a bunch of the bit. So um uh I left um a bunch of the developers I hired left um and then um developers I hired left um and then um developers I hired left um and then um Ben Reef Ben Reef sold quite a lot of Ben Reef Ben Reef sold quite a lot of Ben Reef Ben Reef sold quite a lot of his position also left in a few months his position also left in a few months his position also left in a few months later. So that was that was my so that later. So that was that was my so that later. So that was that was my so that was only like a few I think I was only was only like a few I think I was only was only like a few I think I was only there for like uh six seven months. So there for like uh six seven months. So there for like uh six seven months. So that didn't work out too well. Uh but I that didn't work out too well. Uh but I that didn't work out too well. Uh but I learned a lot uh from that experience. learned a lot uh from that experience. learned a lot uh from that experience. >> Yeah. You learn what not to do. No, they >> Yeah. You learn what not to do. No, they >> Yeah. You learn what not to do. No, they all know like blockchain info when I all know like blockchain info when I all know like blockchain info when I joined the the Baron Reeves said look we joined the the Baron Reeves said look we joined the the Baron Reeves said look we have no company we have no office have no company we have no office have no company we have no office everyone works remotely we just pay everyone works remotely we just pay everyone works remotely we just pay everybody in Bitcoin and so that's everybody in Bitcoin and so that's everybody in Bitcoin and so that's something I learned from that company something I learned from that company something I learned from that company and I still look that's still very and I still look that's still very and I still look that's still very heavily used in Binance today heavily used in Binance today heavily used in Binance today >> so I learned a lot I also learned that >> so I learned a lot I also learned that >> so I learned a lot I also learned that you know that company the whole you know that company the whole you know that company the whole marketing they at the time blockchain marketing they at the time blockchain marketing they at the time blockchain info was the largest user platform in info was the largest user platform in info was the largest user platform in the industry right so they had about two the industry right so they had about two the industry right so they had about two million wallets uh more than Coinbase at million wallets uh more than Coinbase at million wallets uh more than Coinbase at the the the And um uh the entire marketing was one And um uh the entire marketing was one And um uh the entire marketing was one thread on bitcointtalk.org thread on bitcointtalk.org thread on bitcointtalk.org one thread. The thread is 150 pages. Um one thread. The thread is 150 pages. Um one thread. The thread is 150 pages. Um Ben Ree just replies to that thread and Ben Ree just replies to that thread and Ben Ree just replies to that thread and that's how you grew to a 2 million user that's how you grew to a 2 million user that's how you grew to a 2 million user platform. I was like okay so you can do platform. I was like okay so you can do platform. I was like okay so you can do some you can do quite a lot of guorilla some you can do quite a lot of guorilla some you can do quite a lot of guorilla marketing to be successful. marketing to be successful. marketing to be successful. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So I I learned a lot. U but the culture >> So I I learned a lot. U but the culture >> So I I learned a lot. U but the culture changed a little bit. it wasn't fit for changed a little bit. it wasn't fit for changed a little bit. it wasn't fit for for me and then I I left and then that for me and then I I left and then that for me and then I I left and then that was when um was when um was when um uh hired me into into okay coin. Yeah. uh hired me into into okay coin. Yeah. uh hired me into into okay coin. Yeah. So I he said look why are you working So I he said look why are you working So I he said look why are you working for this wallet company your experiences for this wallet company your experiences for this wallet company your experiences dealing with order execution exchanges. dealing with order execution exchanges. dealing with order execution exchanges. So so he hired me there So so he hired me there So so he hired me there >> as a developer >> as a developer >> as a developer >> as a CTO uh >> as a CTO uh >> as a CTO uh >> as a CTO. >> as a CTO. >> as a CTO. >> Yeah. Um so uh yeah so in the process I >> Yeah. Um so uh yeah so in the process I >> Yeah. Um so uh yeah so in the process I think BTC China helped me again. think BTC China helped me again. think BTC China helped me again. Uh so you know I was kind of looking for Uh so you know I was kind of looking for Uh so you know I was kind of looking for a job again right so I left and then um a job again right so I left and then um a job again right so I left and then um uh uh was talking to me and Bobby Lee uh uh was talking to me and Bobby Lee uh uh was talking to me and Bobby Lee found out and Bobby Lee meant so okx found out and Bobby Lee meant so okx found out and Bobby Lee meant so okx okay coin back then uh will offer me 5% okay coin back then uh will offer me 5% okay coin back then uh will offer me 5% equity um and then for uh sorry uh BTC equity um and then for uh sorry uh BTC equity um and then for uh sorry uh BTC China came along and offered me 10% China came along and offered me 10% China came along and offered me 10% equity and then OKCoin matched it within equity and then OKCoin matched it within equity and then OKCoin matched it within three hours and then I was debating three hours and then I was debating three hours and then I was debating between Shanghai and Beijing and I between Shanghai and Beijing and I between Shanghai and Beijing and I decided to go to Beijing to join OKCoin decided to go to Beijing to join OKCoin decided to go to Beijing to join OKCoin back then uh Hu at that time had 1% back then uh Hu at that time had 1% back then uh Hu at that time had 1% equity Uh so she hired me to be like the equity Uh so she hired me to be like the equity Uh so she hired me to be like the the the the bigger sort of partner in the the the bigger sort of partner in the the the bigger sort of partner in the business. the business. the business. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Um so that's that's how I went to OKCoin >> Um so that's that's how I went to OKCoin >> Um so that's that's how I went to OKCoin um for about 8 months or so. Um that um for about 8 months or so. Um that um for about 8 months or so. Um that didn't last long either. didn't last long either. didn't last long either. >> Yeah. Because >> Yeah. Because >> Yeah. Because >> I think there were also culture >> I think there were also culture >> I think there were also culture differences um at OKCoin. Um uh there differences um at OKCoin. Um uh there differences um at OKCoin. Um uh there were some stuff that I didn't agree were some stuff that I didn't agree were some stuff that I didn't agree with. Um both in terms of like you know with. Um both in terms of like you know with. Um both in terms of like you know simple examples like how they run simple examples like how they run simple examples like how they run promotions, how they how they do fee promotions, how they how they do fee promotions, how they how they do fee discounts uh where you have to ask for discounts uh where you have to ask for discounts uh where you have to ask for it like they they advertise a fee it like they they advertise a fee it like they they advertise a fee discount but you have to ask for it to discount but you have to ask for it to discount but you have to ask for it to get it. It doesn't apply to everybody get it. It doesn't apply to everybody get it. It doesn't apply to everybody even though they advertise as such. even though they advertise as such. even though they advertise as such. >> So small things like that. And then um >> So small things like that. And then um >> So small things like that. And then um so yeah, so that was in early 2015 I so yeah, so that was in early 2015 I so yeah, so that was in early 2015 I said no I'm I'm going to leave. Um, so said no I'm I'm going to leave. Um, so said no I'm I'm going to leave. Um, so that's kind of a uh so that lasted for a that's kind of a uh so that lasted for a that's kind of a uh so that lasted for a few months uh in 2015. Yeah. 2014 few months uh in 2015. Yeah. 2014 few months uh in 2015. Yeah. 2014 mostly. Yeah. So how do we get from mostly. Yeah. So how do we get from mostly. Yeah. So how do we get from there to Binance? there to Binance? there to Binance? >> So 2015 um I I with a couple of my old >> So 2015 um I I with a couple of my old >> So 2015 um I I with a couple of my old colleagues said we're going to do a colleagues said we're going to do a colleagues said we're going to do a Bitcoin exchange in um in Tokyo in Japan Bitcoin exchange in um in Tokyo in Japan Bitcoin exchange in um in Tokyo in Japan because this is uh a year after because this is uh a year after because this is uh a year after >> after Mount Gaus and all that. Yeah. >> after Mount Gaus and all that. Yeah. >> after Mount Gaus and all that. Yeah. >> Yeah. So there's a vacuum in Japan. So >> Yeah. So there's a vacuum in Japan. So >> Yeah. So there's a vacuum in Japan. So um we got two developers that came to me um we got two developers that came to me um we got two developers that came to me on the same day I decided to leave on the same day I decided to leave on the same day I decided to leave OKCoin. they came to me said look we OKCoin. they came to me said look we OKCoin. they came to me said look we somehow they also quit their pre somehow they also quit their pre somehow they also quit their pre respective jobs. Um I said okay well why respective jobs. Um I said okay well why respective jobs. Um I said okay well why don't with the three of us do something don't with the three of us do something don't with the three of us do something and so I we said okay so I will I will and so I we said okay so I will I will and so I we said okay so I will I will be the CEO and then I'll be the big guy be the CEO and then I'll be the big guy be the CEO and then I'll be the big guy uh with more equity and then I'll be uh uh with more equity and then I'll be uh uh with more equity and then I'll be uh responsible for raising u I and I was responsible for raising u I and I was responsible for raising u I and I was paying them a salary out of my own paying them a salary out of my own paying them a salary out of my own savings um and I wasn't taking anything. savings um and I wasn't taking anything. savings um and I wasn't taking anything. So the two developers uh we we whipped So the two developers uh we we whipped So the two developers uh we we whipped up a demo very quickly. We downloaded an up a demo very quickly. We downloaded an up a demo very quickly. We downloaded an open source software for an exchange and open source software for an exchange and open source software for an exchange and then uh we tweaked the UI to be a little then uh we tweaked the UI to be a little then uh we tweaked the UI to be a little bit sexier and then uh we hooked up. bit sexier and then uh we hooked up. bit sexier and then uh we hooked up. >> You just forked an open source project >> You just forked an open source project >> You just forked an open source project like this is our this is Binance. like this is our this is Binance. like this is our this is Binance. >> No, we we didn't say it was Binance. >> No, we we didn't say it was Binance. >> No, we we didn't say it was Binance. Yeah, this is before this is before Yeah, this is before this is before Yeah, this is before this is before Minance. Minance. Minance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we didn't say we I was very >> And we didn't say we I was very >> And we didn't say we I was very transparent. I was like this we whipped transparent. I was like this we whipped transparent. I was like this we whipped up this demo up in two days or in a few up this demo up in two days or in a few up this demo up in two days or in a few days. days. days. >> Um and this is a demo that we can show >> Um and this is a demo that we can show >> Um and this is a demo that we can show you. But this is not our you. But this is not our you. But this is not our >> the ultimate product. It's just it's >> the ultimate product. It's just it's >> the ultimate product. It's just it's just a proof of concept just Yeah. So um just a proof of concept just Yeah. So um just a proof of concept just Yeah. So um it's like uh yeah so and then but and it's like uh yeah so and then but and it's like uh yeah so and then but and then we had a script that took Bitfinex then we had a script that took Bitfinex then we had a script that took Bitfinex uh market data. Bitfinex was like a the uh market data. Bitfinex was like a the uh market data. Bitfinex was like a the large exchange back then and we just large exchange back then and we just large exchange back then and we just kind of copy their order book and the kind of copy their order book and the kind of copy their order book and the order book was flashing there's trades order book was flashing there's trades order book was flashing there's trades going on. So it was a very lively demo going on. So it was a very lively demo going on. So it was a very lively demo and when the investors saw that it was and when the investors saw that it was and when the investors saw that it was like wow this is good technology like wow this is good technology like wow this is good technology but it's not just a demo it's it's it's but it's not just a demo it's it's it's but it's not just a demo it's it's it's a when they ask me questions I can a when they ask me questions I can a when they ask me questions I can answer in very deep ways right when they answer in very deep ways right when they answer in very deep ways right when they ask me like you know how do how do you ask me like you know how do how do you ask me like you know how do how do you structure this to be a fast uh exchange structure this to be a fast uh exchange structure this to be a fast uh exchange we I can talk about know in memory uh we I can talk about know in memory uh we I can talk about know in memory uh matching um uh optimizing database all matching um uh optimizing database all matching um uh optimizing database all all the all the stuff you've learned all the all the stuff you've learned all the all the stuff you've learned >> yeah so I can go really deep when they >> yeah so I can go really deep when they >> yeah so I can go really deep when they ask questions right so the my my ask questions right so the my my ask questions right so the my my knowledge is there knowledge is there knowledge is there >> right >> right >> right >> so they were like uh They were like, >> so they were like uh They were like, >> so they were like uh They were like, "Okay, this technology is cool, but you "Okay, this technology is cool, but you "Okay, this technology is cool, but you could you won't you won't be successful could you won't you won't be successful could you won't you won't be successful running a crypto bitcoin exchange in running a crypto bitcoin exchange in running a crypto bitcoin exchange in Japan. You don't speak Japanese, right?" Japan. You don't speak Japanese, right?" Japan. You don't speak Japanese, right?" I was like, "Okay, they have a point." I was like, "Okay, they have a point." I was like, "Okay, they have a point." Um, so they said, "Why don't you sell Um, so they said, "Why don't you sell Um, so they said, "Why don't you sell the this technology to other exchanges the this technology to other exchanges the this technology to other exchanges because most of the Japanese exchanges because most of the Japanese exchanges because most of the Japanese exchanges don't have very good technology." Um, I don't have very good technology." Um, I don't have very good technology." Um, I was like, "Okay." So then I went to talk was like, "Okay." So then I went to talk was like, "Okay." So then I went to talk to a few of the exchanges. Like to a few of the exchanges. Like to a few of the exchanges. Like literally two weeks later, we signed a literally two weeks later, we signed a literally two weeks later, we signed a contract with one of the with one of the contract with one of the with one of the contract with one of the with one of the exchanges and then they paid 30 $360,000 exchanges and then they paid 30 $360,000 exchanges and then they paid 30 $360,000 for the for the system. Uh so they made for the for the system. Uh so they made for the for the system. Uh so they made a down payment of 100 $180,000. a down payment of 100 $180,000. a down payment of 100 $180,000. Um that was enough for me not to pay Um that was enough for me not to pay Um that was enough for me not to pay salaries anymore. So I was happy with salaries anymore. So I was happy with salaries anymore. So I was happy with that. So uh we pivoted from a wanting to that. So uh we pivoted from a wanting to that. So uh we pivoted from a wanting to run a our own Bitcoin exchange to a run a our own Bitcoin exchange to a run a our own Bitcoin exchange to a exchange systems for provider. exchange systems for provider. exchange systems for provider. >> Yeah. You're selling software. >> Yeah. You're selling software. >> Yeah. You're selling software. >> Uh we we're selling software. And then >> Uh we we're selling software. And then >> Uh we we're selling software. And then um in July 2015, a bunch of Chinese uh um in July 2015, a bunch of Chinese uh um in July 2015, a bunch of Chinese uh uh companies came to us saying they want uh companies came to us saying they want uh companies came to us saying they want systems for systems for systems for >> Can I just say by the way, sorry to >> Can I just say by the way, sorry to >> Can I just say by the way, sorry to interrupt you, but it's really interrupt you, but it's really interrupt you, but it's really incredible because there are so many incredible because there are so many incredible because there are so many founder stories when somebody says, founder stories when somebody says, founder stories when somebody says, "I've started a company." And then "I've started a company." And then "I've started a company." And then somebody says, "Well, how much is it somebody says, "Well, how much is it somebody says, "Well, how much is it worth or how successful is it?" And you worth or how successful is it?" And you worth or how successful is it?" And you know, let's just say Binance is a $200 know, let's just say Binance is a $200 know, let's just say Binance is a $200 billion company, billion company, billion company, >> probably less than that, but >> probably less than that, but >> probably less than that, but >> it's in the neighborhood. >> it's in the neighborhood. >> it's in the neighborhood. A lot of people think that there is some A lot of people think that there is some A lot of people think that there is some incredible origin story that is like incredible origin story that is like incredible origin story that is like lightning in a bottle. But so often than lightning in a bottle. But so often than lightning in a bottle. But so often than not, the story is more yours, which is not, the story is more yours, which is not, the story is more yours, which is this. It's kind of like moving along, this. It's kind of like moving along, this. It's kind of like moving along, meandering, learning things, trying some meandering, learning things, trying some meandering, learning things, trying some other things, other things, other things, >> this non-obvious iteration, and then all >> this non-obvious iteration, and then all >> this non-obvious iteration, and then all of a sudden of a sudden of a sudden >> things kind of catalyze. But even then, >> things kind of catalyze. But even then, >> things kind of catalyze. But even then, you still don't get the right form you still don't get the right form you still don't get the right form because you're licensing it really. And because you're licensing it really. And because you're licensing it really. And people just misunderstand that this is people just misunderstand that this is people just misunderstand that this is actually more what entrepreneurship is. actually more what entrepreneurship is. actually more what entrepreneurship is. It's the resilience and the grit to just It's the resilience and the grit to just It's the resilience and the grit to just keep grinding. keep grinding. keep grinding. >> For sure. For sure. I think most most >> For sure. For sure. I think most most >> For sure. For sure. I think most most people idealize like, you know, um people idealize like, you know, um people idealize like, you know, um entrepreneurship that they just hate it entrepreneurship that they just hate it entrepreneurship that they just hate it and they they they and they they they and they they they >> it's like the Facebook story. You hack >> it's like the Facebook story. You hack >> it's like the Facebook story. You hack it together in college and oh it's now a it together in college and oh it's now a it together in college and oh it's now a million users. million users. million users. >> It's Facebook is is is Microsoft, right? >> It's Facebook is is is Microsoft, right? >> It's Facebook is is is Microsoft, right? Exactly. And also Google this three are Exactly. And also Google this three are Exactly. And also Google this three are like you know college uh garage and they like you know college uh garage and they like you know college uh garage and they just just just >> Exactly. Even but the reality Binance or >> Exactly. Even but the reality Binance or >> Exactly. Even but the reality Binance or Tesla it's like a grind. It's it's a Tesla it's like a grind. It's it's a Tesla it's like a grind. It's it's a grind and it's a grind. grind and it's a grind. grind and it's a grind. >> You have to like go so many different >> You have to like go so many different >> You have to like go so many different ways ways ways >> and it wasn't obvious from the >> and it wasn't obvious from the >> and it wasn't obvious from the beginning. beginning. beginning. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So I think those three are the >> Right. So I think those three are the >> Right. So I think those three are the exceptions that kind of just hit it from exceptions that kind of just hit it from exceptions that kind of just hit it from day one. day one. day one. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Um but then that kind of shaped the >> Um but then that kind of shaped the >> Um but then that kind of shaped the people's perception like 99% 99.9% of people's perception like 99% 99.9% of people's perception like 99% 99.9% of other business successful businesses are other business successful businesses are other business successful businesses are not like that. not like that. not like that. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. So if you look at now any other >> Right. So if you look at now any other >> Right. So if you look at now any other successful company. Yeah. So the same successful company. Yeah. So the same successful company. Yeah. So the same same here. same here. same here. >> So get us to the founding moment. >> So get us to the founding moment. >> So get us to the founding moment. >> Yeah. So we did >> Yeah. So we did >> Yeah. So we did >> so you're licensing the software. >> so you're licensing the software. >> so you're licensing the software. >> We licensed the software. We that >> We licensed the software. We that >> We licensed the software. We that business went pretty well. So, we've had business went pretty well. So, we've had business went pretty well. So, we've had like 30 different exchange clients. like 30 different exchange clients. like 30 different exchange clients. >> Wait, no way. >> Wait, no way. >> Wait, no way. >> Like over over like >> Like over over like >> Like over over like >> over multiple years. >> over multiple years. >> over multiple years. >> Over two years. In two years, we signed >> Over two years. In two years, we signed >> Over two years. In two years, we signed up. up. up. >> Yeah. So, this is a multi-million dollar >> Yeah. So, this is a multi-million dollar >> Yeah. So, this is a multi-million dollar >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> licensing business. >> licensing business. >> licensing business. >> Yeah. So, and it's a SAS business, >> Yeah. So, and it's a SAS business, >> Yeah. So, and it's a SAS business, right? What we call exchange as a right? What we call exchange as a right? What we call exchange as a service uh business. So, we charge a service uh business. So, we charge a service uh business. So, we charge a fixed monthly fee every month. And this fixed monthly fee every month. And this fixed monthly fee every month. And this is platform business is paying us. It's is platform business is paying us. It's is platform business is paying us. It's very steady business. Every new client very steady business. Every new client very steady business. Every new client we So, every new client increases the we So, every new client increases the we So, every new client increases the the revenue. So, every new client is the revenue. So, every new client is the revenue. So, every new client is like a step up. like a step up. like a step up. >> Exactly. So it's a very actually a very >> Exactly. So it's a very actually a very >> Exactly. So it's a very actually a very very good business model. But then in very good business model. But then in very good business model. But then in March 2017 uh the Chinese government March 2017 uh the Chinese government March 2017 uh the Chinese government shut down most of our clients. Uh and shut down most of our clients. Uh and shut down most of our clients. Uh and then um and then by May we're like then um and then by May we're like then um and then by May we're like >> right and they don't touch you because >> right and they don't touch you because >> right and they don't touch you because you're the software vendor you're the software vendor you're the software vendor >> with a software vendor. Exactly. We >> with a software vendor. Exactly. We >> with a software vendor. Exactly. We don't run any business. So with a don't run any business. So with a don't run any business. So with a software vendor so um but then our software vendor so um but then our software vendor so um but then our businesses we don't we have no clients businesses we don't we have no clients businesses we don't we have no clients right. So uh we lost our clients and so right. So uh we lost our clients and so right. So uh we lost our clients and so by May we were like okay we need to by May we were like okay we need to by May we were like okay we need to pivot. Um well by April May we were like pivot. Um well by April May we were like pivot. Um well by April May we were like figure out how to pivot. Um by end of figure out how to pivot. Um by end of figure out how to pivot. Um by end of May we was like okay uh actually three May we was like okay uh actually three May we was like okay uh actually three guys who worked for me said they want to guys who worked for me said they want to guys who worked for me said they want to do a Polon next copycat. Polex was the do a Polon next copycat. Polex was the do a Polon next copycat. Polex was the biggest uh exchange back then. Um and biggest uh exchange back then. Um and biggest uh exchange back then. Um and then I said let's let me invest. We have then I said let's let me invest. We have then I said let's let me invest. We have some extra cash. Three days later they some extra cash. Three days later they some extra cash. Three days later they want to do some onchain chat trading want to do some onchain chat trading want to do some onchain chat trading software. Was like no we're not going to software. Was like no we're not going to software. Was like no we're not going to invest in that anymore. Um and then I invest in that anymore. Um and then I invest in that anymore. Um and then I said well why don't we do that? We have said well why don't we do that? We have said well why don't we do that? We have the exchange system already. Uh we still the exchange system already. Uh we still the exchange system already. Uh we still need to customize it to do a cryptoto need to customize it to do a cryptoto need to customize it to do a cryptoto crypto only trading. crypto only trading. crypto only trading. >> My gosh. So in May we said okay uh we're >> My gosh. So in May we said okay uh we're >> My gosh. So in May we said okay uh we're going to do a crypto we're gonna do an going to do a crypto we're gonna do an going to do a crypto we're gonna do an exchange again. Um the team said fine uh exchange again. Um the team said fine uh exchange again. Um the team said fine uh sure. sure. sure. >> How big is the team at this point? >> How big is the team at this point? >> How big is the team at this point? >> 20 people. So um and we had tech people. >> 20 people. So um and we had tech people. >> 20 people. So um and we had tech people. We don't have marketing because we are We don't have marketing because we are We don't have marketing because we are to be business right. We we have we have to be business right. We we have we have to be business right. We we have we have two sales guys two sales guys plus me. two sales guys two sales guys plus me. two sales guys two sales guys plus me. >> Um and then uh we said well now we can >> Um and then uh we said well now we can >> Um and then uh we said well now we can run our own let's let's do our own run our own let's let's do our own run our own let's let's do our own cryptoto crypto exchange. Um so and then cryptoto crypto exchange. Um so and then cryptoto crypto exchange. Um so and then so that was the end of May and then June so that was the end of May and then June so that was the end of May and then June 1st to June 10th uh there was a guy who 1st to June 10th uh there was a guy who 1st to June 10th uh there was a guy who who was a BTC co-founder uh Link he ran who was a BTC co-founder uh Link he ran who was a BTC co-founder uh Link he ran an ICO in China he raised 15 million US an ICO in China he raised 15 million US an ICO in China he raised 15 million US dollars in in 10 days and with and then dollars in in 10 days and with and then dollars in in 10 days and with and then I looked at him I was like I was like he I looked at him I was like I was like he I looked at him I was like I was like he only had a white he only had one only had a white he only had one only had a white he only had one document and one website no product document and one website no product document and one website no product nothing he raised $15 million US if if nothing he raised $15 million US if if nothing he raised $15 million US if if he can do that I might be able to do he can do that I might be able to do he can do that I might be able to do that too that too that too >> you need aded venture funding you're >> you need aded venture funding you're >> you need aded venture funding you're like if I get the $1 million. I can like if I get the $1 million. I can like if I get the $1 million. I can build out a team. I can invest in some build out a team. I can invest in some build out a team. I can invest in some marketing. I can be in the J curve and marketing. I can be in the J curve and marketing. I can be in the J curve and not feel the pressure. not feel the pressure. not feel the pressure. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, originally we were >> Exactly. Yeah. So, originally we were >> Exactly. Yeah. So, originally we were going to go to the VC funding route, going to go to the VC funding route, going to go to the VC funding route, right? But then when I saw that, I was right? But then when I saw that, I was right? But then when I saw that, I was like, well, and and and everyone talking like, well, and and and everyone talking like, well, and and and everyone talking about ICOs back then. Uh I went to like about ICOs back then. Uh I went to like about ICOs back then. Uh I went to like I went to a conference uh mid June uh I went to a conference uh mid June uh I went to a conference uh mid June uh 2017 and everyone was talking about ICO. 2017 and everyone was talking about ICO. 2017 and everyone was talking about ICO. Everyone's like, CZ, you got to do an Everyone's like, CZ, you got to do an Everyone's like, CZ, you got to do an ICO. You got to do an ICO. So, um by mid ICO. You got to do an ICO. So, um by mid ICO. You got to do an ICO. So, um by mid June uh June 14th was the date. And then June uh June 14th was the date. And then June uh June 14th was the date. And then I said, okay, called the team said we're I said, okay, called the team said we're I said, okay, called the team said we're going to do an ICO. write a white paper going to do an ICO. write a white paper going to do an ICO. write a white paper and then by and then by and then by >> and so did you have a name at that point >> and so did you have a name at that point >> and so did you have a name at that point like in the Bitcoin community or in the like in the Bitcoin community or in the like in the Bitcoin community or in the crypto community either in China or in crypto community either in China or in crypto community either in China or in Japan or somewhere Japan or somewhere Japan or somewhere >> I had a little bit of a name even >> I had a little bit of a name even >> I had a little bit of a name even working at blockchain info uh uh quite a working at blockchain info uh uh quite a working at blockchain info uh uh quite a lot of people know me uh blockchain info lot of people know me uh blockchain info lot of people know me uh blockchain info was the most popular platform back then was the most popular platform back then was the most popular platform back then right right right >> and OKCoin was also like I was a CTO I >> and OKCoin was also like I was a CTO I >> and OKCoin was also like I was a CTO I was quite I was quite active on social was quite I was quite active on social was quite I was quite active on social media um I was also kind of managing media um I was also kind of managing media um I was also kind of managing their international markets non-English their international markets non-English their international markets non-English speaking or non-Chinese speaking markets speaking or non-Chinese speaking markets speaking or non-Chinese speaking markets because nobody else I was the best because nobody else I was the best because nobody else I was the best English speaker on that me even though English speaker on that me even though English speaker on that me even though my English is not that great but uh so I my English is not that great but uh so I my English is not that great but uh so I had a I had a little bit of a a name uh had a I had a little bit of a a name uh had a I had a little bit of a a name uh uh people know uh people know me in the uh people know uh people know me in the uh people know uh people know me in the community community community >> because you needed a bit of a name or >> because you needed a bit of a name or >> because you needed a bit of a name or some kind of pedigree to actually do an some kind of pedigree to actually do an some kind of pedigree to actually do an ICO at this point. ICO at this point. ICO at this point. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but this is a >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but this is a >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but this is a advantage of when you get involved early advantage of when you get involved early advantage of when you get involved early in the industry like you go to a few in the industry like you go to a few in the industry like you go to a few conferences like there's 200 people and conferences like there's 200 people and conferences like there's 200 people and you go to like by the second time you go you go to like by the second time you go you go to like by the second time you go there people know you right there people know you right there people know you right >> but the third time is people like oh you >> but the third time is people like oh you >> but the third time is people like oh you know know know >> you're the expert [laughter] already >> you're the expert [laughter] already >> you're the expert [laughter] already right so u so I had a I had I had a bit right so u so I had a I had I had a bit right so u so I had a I had I had a bit of a reputation uh so I thought that of a reputation uh so I thought that of a reputation uh so I thought that link quite the guy who did the ICO in link quite the guy who did the ICO in link quite the guy who did the ICO in China he's quite well known in China but China he's quite well known in China but China he's quite well known in China but he's not known internationally I have a he's not known internationally I have a he's not known internationally I have a little bit of both so I said well I can little bit of both so I said well I can little bit of both so I said well I can probably do an ICO and raise the same probably do an ICO and raise the same probably do an ICO and raise the same amount so we Uh, and um, amount so we Uh, and um, amount so we Uh, and um, >> so who are the buyers of the Binance >> so who are the buyers of the Binance >> so who are the buyers of the Binance ICO? ICO? ICO? >> To be honest, even to this day, I don't >> To be honest, even to this day, I don't >> To be honest, even to this day, I don't know. know. know. >> Even to this day, you don't know, >> Even to this day, you don't know, >> Even to this day, you don't know, >> right? It's like I think, >> right? It's like I think, >> right? It's like I think, >> but are they Chinese? Are they Japanese? >> but are they Chinese? Are they Japanese? >> but are they Chinese? Are they Japanese? Are they people from all around the Are they people from all around the Are they people from all around the world that kind of knew you? Was it that world that kind of knew you? Was it that world that kind of knew you? Was it that your white paper was really good? your white paper was really good? your white paper was really good? >> Okay. So, I think in terms of >> Okay. So, I think in terms of >> Okay. So, I think in terms of demographic, it's probably like 80 the demographic, it's probably like 80 the demographic, it's probably like 80 the ICO purchases were probably 80 80 to 90% ICO purchases were probably 80 80 to 90% ICO purchases were probably 80 80 to 90% Chinese. And there were some like Chinese. And there were some like Chinese. And there were some like international guys who who bought it. international guys who who bought it. international guys who who bought it. Uh, and I think the data shows that Uh, and I think the data shows that Uh, and I think the data shows that there was about 20 20,000 people who there was about 20 20,000 people who there was about 20 20,000 people who bought in the ICO. bought in the ICO. bought in the ICO. >> 20,000 people. >> 20,000 people. >> 20,000 people. >> 20,000 people. So, and this is like a >> 20,000 people. So, and this is like a >> 20,000 people. So, and this is like a brand new brand. Uh, some people know me brand new brand. Uh, some people know me brand new brand. Uh, some people know me in the industry and that was it. in the industry and that was it. in the industry and that was it. >> So, even though the exchanges were put >> So, even though the exchanges were put >> So, even though the exchanges were put out of business in China, out of business in China, out of business in China, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> the ICO was allowed. >> the ICO was allowed. >> the ICO was allowed. >> No, the ICO wasn't banned back then. >> No, the ICO wasn't banned back then. >> No, the ICO wasn't banned back then. >> Wasn't banned. >> Wasn't banned. >> Wasn't banned. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was not not allowed. >> It was not not allowed. >> It was not not allowed. >> It was [laughter] not not allowed. >> It was [laughter] not not allowed. >> It was [laughter] not not allowed. Exactly. So, let me let me let me let me Exactly. So, let me let me let me let me Exactly. So, let me let me let me let me just make one clarification. The just make one clarification. The just make one clarification. The exchange clients that that we were exchange clients that that we were exchange clients that that we were serving were mostly stamp uh cultures serving were mostly stamp uh cultures serving were mostly stamp uh cultures exchanges, not crypto exchanges. Okay. exchanges, not crypto exchanges. Okay. exchanges, not crypto exchanges. Okay. >> Crypto exchanges were not banned in >> Crypto exchanges were not banned in >> Crypto exchanges were not banned in March. Crypto exchanges were banned March. Crypto exchanges were banned March. Crypto exchanges were banned after we started. after we started. after we started. >> I see. >> I see. >> I see. >> So uh that was in September. We're >> So uh that was in September. We're >> So uh that was in September. We're talking about like June, July kind of talking about like June, July kind of talking about like June, July kind of 2017. 2017. 2017. >> Wow. You're really threading a needle. >> Wow. You're really threading a needle. >> Wow. You're really threading a needle. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I we didn't know that >> Yeah. Yeah. So I we didn't know that >> Yeah. Yeah. So I we didn't know that that B was coming. We just thought like that B was coming. We just thought like that B was coming. We just thought like you know those you know those you know those >> How much of the company did you sell? >> How much of the company did you sell? >> How much of the company did you sell? >> No, we didn't have we we just the coins. >> No, we didn't have we we just the coins. >> No, we didn't have we we just the coins. >> We launched the token. >> We launched the token. >> We launched the token. >> You had to do no equity participation. >> You had to do no equity participation. >> You had to do no equity participation. There's no there's no equity that There's no there's no equity that There's no there's no equity that there's no equity uh involved. So we there's no equity uh involved. So we there's no equity uh involved. So we just we launched a new token B&B is just we launched a new token B&B is just we launched a new token B&B is still there today still there today still there today >> and then we said look we're going to >> and then we said look we're going to >> and then we said look we're going to sell uh we're going to sell 60% of it sell uh we're going to sell 60% of it sell uh we're going to sell 60% of it for $15 million for $15 million for $15 million >> roughly. Right. So uh because we're >> roughly. Right. So uh because we're >> roughly. Right. So uh because we're tokening bitcoins tokening bitcoins tokening bitcoins >> and what were the original tokconomics >> and what were the original tokconomics >> and what were the original tokconomics that you designed for the B&B token? that you designed for the B&B token? that you designed for the B&B token? >> Well, we said a bunch of things but the >> Well, we said a bunch of things but the >> Well, we said a bunch of things but the main one that was going to be live very main one that was going to be live very main one that was going to be live very quickly was going to be uh if you hold quickly was going to be uh if you hold quickly was going to be uh if you hold B&B you receive 50% fee discounts when B&B you receive 50% fee discounts when B&B you receive 50% fee discounts when you trade on Binance eventually the you trade on Binance eventually the you trade on Binance eventually the platform that gets launched. Um, that platform that gets launched. Um, that platform that gets launched. Um, that was the main thing. But we also said, was the main thing. But we also said, was the main thing. But we also said, look, it's going to be a it's going to look, it's going to be a it's going to look, it's going to be a it's going to have eventually it's going to have its have eventually it's going to have its have eventually it's going to have its own chain, it own decentralized own chain, it own decentralized own chain, it own decentralized ecosystem. There's like three or four ecosystem. There's like three or four ecosystem. There's like three or four things. things. things. >> So then you guys must have been >> So then you guys must have been >> So then you guys must have been ecstatic. You're like, wow, we raised 15 ecstatic. You're like, wow, we raised 15 ecstatic. You're like, wow, we raised 15 million bucks. We're now going to launch million bucks. We're now going to launch million bucks. We're now going to launch this exchange. But then September comes this exchange. But then September comes this exchange. But then September comes around and then exchanges themselves. around and then exchanges themselves. around and then exchanges themselves. So then what do you do? So then what do you do? So then what do you do? >> Yeah. September comes around. September >> Yeah. September comes around. September >> Yeah. September comes around. September 4th, the like seven different 4th, the like seven different 4th, the like seven different departments of Chinese government issued departments of Chinese government issued departments of Chinese government issued a memo together saying that number one a memo together saying that number one a memo together saying that number one exch crypto exchanges are no longer exch crypto exchanges are no longer exch crypto exchanges are no longer allowed in China. ICOs are no longer allowed in China. ICOs are no longer allowed in China. ICOs are no longer allowed. Mining is not allowed, crypto allowed. Mining is not allowed, crypto allowed. Mining is not allowed, crypto mining. Uh we said, well, we're gonna mining. Uh we said, well, we're gonna mining. Uh we said, well, we're gonna move. Well, we said uh we have to move. move. Well, we said uh we have to move. move. Well, we said uh we have to move. Uh by then it was clear that even while Uh by then it was clear that even while Uh by then it was clear that even while at the time China was one of the do the at the time China was one of the do the at the time China was one of the do the the largest user base, uh they have like the largest user base, uh they have like the largest user base, uh they have like 30 something% user base from China, but 30 something% user base from China, but 30 something% user base from China, but we still have like 70% from the rest of we still have like 70% from the rest of we still have like 70% from the rest of the world. We said, look, if we cut off the world. We said, look, if we cut off the world. We said, look, if we cut off that 30%, we can still survive. We can that 30%, we can still survive. We can that 30%, we can still survive. We can we can we actually survive pretty well. we can we actually survive pretty well. we can we actually survive pretty well. >> Yeah. Um, so we said, well, I just said, >> Yeah. Um, so we said, well, I just said, >> Yeah. Um, so we said, well, I just said, "Look, let's move. Let's move. Uh, let's "Look, let's move. Let's move. Uh, let's "Look, let's move. Let's move. Uh, let's move to Tokyo." move to Tokyo." move to Tokyo." >> Back to Tokyo. >> Back to Tokyo. >> Back to Tokyo. >> Back to Tokyo, right? >> Back to Tokyo, right? >> Back to Tokyo, right? >> You love Tokyo. >> You love Tokyo. >> You love Tokyo. >> I I I've been I've been back in and out >> I I I've been I've been back in and out >> I I I've been I've been back in and out of Tokyo. I know it. of Tokyo. I know it. of Tokyo. I know it. >> And by the way, at that point, do you >> And by the way, at that point, do you >> And by the way, at that point, do you speak Japanese as well? speak Japanese as well? speak Japanese as well? >> I speak very little Japanese. Uh what I >> I speak very little Japanese. Uh what I >> I speak very little Japanese. Uh what I call taxi Japanese. I can I can say call taxi Japanese. I can I can say call taxi Japanese. I can I can say like, "No, thank you. Go left, go like, "No, thank you. Go left, go like, "No, thank you. Go left, go right." In a restaurant, I when I order, right." In a restaurant, I when I order, right." In a restaurant, I when I order, I say this, this, this, not the not the I say this, this, this, not the not the I say this, this, this, not the not the full menu names. full menu names. full menu names. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Sushi, I can name most of them. >> Sushi, I can name most of them. >> Sushi, I can name most of them. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, that's my Japanese level. But >> Yeah. So, that's my Japanese level. But >> Yeah. So, that's my Japanese level. But you know I know Japan, I know Tokyo. It you know I know Japan, I know Tokyo. It you know I know Japan, I know Tokyo. It wasn't it's not like a new country for wasn't it's not like a new country for wasn't it's not like a new country for me, right? So I said like let's move to me, right? So I said like let's move to me, right? So I said like let's move to Tokyo. And we had like 30 people then, Tokyo. And we had like 30 people then, Tokyo. And we had like 30 people then, right? So right? So right? So >> and everybody moved. >> and everybody moved. >> and everybody moved. >> Everybody moved. >> Everybody moved. >> Everybody moved. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Back then um eight years ago I think >> Back then um eight years ago I think >> Back then um eight years ago I think very like maybe one or two of the people very like maybe one or two of the people very like maybe one or two of the people were married. Uh and nobody had kids. Uh were married. Uh and nobody had kids. Uh were married. Uh and nobody had kids. Uh so it was like a very easy move for the so it was like a very easy move for the so it was like a very easy move for the team. team. team. >> Yeah. Uh so it's everybody just packed >> Yeah. Uh so it's everybody just packed >> Yeah. Uh so it's everybody just packed up and moved. I remember one girl cried, up and moved. I remember one girl cried, up and moved. I remember one girl cried, one product manager, she cried because one product manager, she cried because one product manager, she cried because her her boyfriend is in is in China. So her her boyfriend is in is in China. So her her boyfriend is in is in China. So she cried but she moved with us and u she cried but she moved with us and u she cried but she moved with us and u she's not married to her boyfriend. So she's not married to her boyfriend. So she's not married to her boyfriend. So anyway, anyway, anyway, >> incredible. >> incredible. >> incredible. >> So yeah, so we moved to Tokyo like u >> So yeah, so we moved to Tokyo like u >> So yeah, so we moved to Tokyo like u when China did that um and uh our when China did that um and uh our when China did that um and uh our platform continue to grow. Yeah. platform continue to grow. Yeah. platform continue to grow. Yeah. >> So when you first launched Binance, was >> So when you first launched Binance, was >> So when you first launched Binance, was it an instant hit or did it take energy it an instant hit or did it take energy it an instant hit or did it take energy to find that product market fit? at to find that product market fit? at to find that product market fit? at first few zealous users that would tell first few zealous users that would tell first few zealous users that would tell everybody else like how did the verality everybody else like how did the verality everybody else like how did the verality start? How did the liquidity really get start? How did the liquidity really get start? How did the liquidity really get built? built? built? >> So, Binance I would say the product was >> So, Binance I would say the product was >> So, Binance I would say the product was growing pretty well but the token price growing pretty well but the token price growing pretty well but the token price went down uh from ICO price it went down went down uh from ICO price it went down went down uh from ICO price it went down 30 40%. It took about 3 weeks to 30 40%. It took about 3 weeks to 30 40%. It took about 3 weeks to recover. Uh so, uh when we launched the recover. Uh so, uh when we launched the recover. Uh so, uh when we launched the product uh because at that time crypto product uh because at that time crypto product uh because at that time crypto is still pretty hot. I think we the is still pretty hot. I think we the is still pretty hot. I think we the product market fit was there. Um it product market fit was there. Um it product market fit was there. Um it wasn't a new idea. It's just a cryptoto wasn't a new idea. It's just a cryptoto wasn't a new idea. It's just a cryptoto crypto exchange. So then the ICO was crypto exchange. So then the ICO was crypto exchange. So then the ICO was critical then, right? Because these critical then, right? Because these critical then, right? Because these people say, "Well, I own this token now. people say, "Well, I own this token now. people say, "Well, I own this token now. I can trade at a fee discount." I can trade at a fee discount." I can trade at a fee discount." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that's why I'm going to choose >> So that's why I'm going to choose >> So that's why I'm going to choose Binance. Binance. Binance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But was it also architected better? Was >> But was it also architected better? Was >> But was it also architected better? Was it materially faster or more reliable? it materially faster or more reliable? it materially faster or more reliable? >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure >> it was. >> it was. >> it was. >> It was. So back then uh when we launched >> It was. So back then uh when we launched >> It was. So back then uh when we launched you can even even using your eyeballs, you can even even using your eyeballs, you can even even using your eyeballs, you can see that placing an order on you can see that placing an order on you can see that placing an order on Binance is so much faster than on Binance is so much faster than on Binance is so much faster than on competing platform. competing platform. competing platform. >> And so the performance of of the >> And so the performance of of the >> And so the performance of of the exchange system was visible. Back then exchange system was visible. Back then exchange system was visible. Back then 2017, who were the big platforms that 2017, who were the big platforms that 2017, who were the big platforms that you were competing with? you were competing with? you were competing with? >> There was Polonex, Bitrex were the >> There was Polonex, Bitrex were the >> There was Polonex, Bitrex were the biggest ones and then there's a few biggest ones and then there's a few biggest ones and then there's a few Chinese ones. There's Hobi, OKX, uh, Chinese ones. There's Hobi, OKX, uh, Chinese ones. There's Hobi, OKX, uh, OKCoin back then. Um, and then in the OKCoin back then. Um, and then in the OKCoin back then. Um, and then in the Western world, Coinbase was there. Um, Western world, Coinbase was there. Um, Western world, Coinbase was there. Um, Gemini was Gemini wasn't there back Gemini was Gemini wasn't there back Gemini was Gemini wasn't there back then. Um, Gemini was later. Um, so then. Um, Gemini was later. Um, so then. Um, Gemini was later. Um, so Bitstamp was there. Uh, Bitfinex was Bitstamp was there. Uh, Bitfinex was Bitstamp was there. Uh, Bitfinex was there. Um, now they're kind of really there. Um, now they're kind of really there. Um, now they're kind of really really small. really small. really small. >> So you're now in your late 30s. >> So you're now in your late 30s. >> So you're now in your late 30s. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And this thing is working. >> And this thing is working. >> And this thing is working. >> 40s now. >> 40s now. >> 40s now. >> 40s, sorry. 40s. How did you internalize >> 40s, sorry. 40s. How did you internalize >> 40s, sorry. 40s. How did you internalize the success? You're like, "What is the success? You're like, "What is the success? You're like, "What is this?" Like, "What what's happening?" this?" Like, "What what's happening?" this?" Like, "What what's happening?" Like, "Are you saying that to yourself Like, "Are you saying that to yourself Like, "Are you saying that to yourself or or or >> Yeah, there were some really surreal >> Yeah, there were some really surreal >> Yeah, there were some really surreal moments where you were like, is this moments where you were like, is this moments where you were like, is this real?" real?" real?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In a good way. Said like, "How like >> In a good way. Said like, "How like >> In a good way. Said like, "How like what's our revenue?" what's our revenue?" what's our revenue?" >> She I forgot the number, but she said >> She I forgot the number, but she said >> She I forgot the number, but she said like a couple a couple hundred bitcoins. like a couple a couple hundred bitcoins. like a couple a couple hundred bitcoins. Like, that's crazy. We can't be making Like, that's crazy. We can't be making Like, that's crazy. We can't be making like are you sure? She's like, "Yeah, like are you sure? She's like, "Yeah, like are you sure? She's like, "Yeah, we're sure." Like, "No, this number we're sure." Like, "No, this number we're sure." Like, "No, this number can't be correct. We must be off by like can't be correct. We must be off by like can't be correct. We must be off by like a magnitude." And we double check, a magnitude." And we double check, a magnitude." And we double check, double check, triple check like correct. double check, triple check like correct. double check, triple check like correct. I was like, that's crazy. And then there I was like, that's crazy. And then there I was like, that's crazy. And then there was also a period where three weeks in was also a period where three weeks in was also a period where three weeks in uh when the B&B price was recovering. So uh when the B&B price was recovering. So uh when the B&B price was recovering. So B&B ICOed at like about 10 cents. It B&B ICOed at like about 10 cents. It B&B ICOed at like about 10 cents. It dropped to like 0.0 uh up dropped to 6 dropped to like 0.0 uh up dropped to 6 dropped to like 0.0 uh up dropped to 6 cents. And then um uh Hi join, we cents. And then um uh Hi join, we cents. And then um uh Hi join, we announced Hi joining and then for the announced Hi joining and then for the announced Hi joining and then for the next two three weeks um every time I you next two three weeks um every time I you next two three weeks um every time I you know you go to sleep, you wake up the know you go to sleep, you wake up the know you go to sleep, you wake up the token is up 20%. You go to a meeting token is up 20%. You go to a meeting token is up 20%. You go to a meeting come up the token up 20%. You go to the come up the token up 20%. You go to the come up the token up 20%. You go to the bathroom, come back, and tokens up 20%. bathroom, come back, and tokens up 20%. bathroom, come back, and tokens up 20%. >> I mean, it must have been very quick >> I mean, it must have been very quick >> I mean, it must have been very quick where you're like, wait a minute, I'm where you're like, wait a minute, I'm where you're like, wait a minute, I'm rich. rich. rich. >> That came a little bit later. That came >> That came a little bit later. That came >> That came a little bit later. That came in early 2018, about six, seven, seven, in early 2018, about six, seven, seven, in early 2018, about six, seven, seven, eight months in. Forbes put me on the eight months in. Forbes put me on the eight months in. Forbes put me on the cover. cover. cover. >> Uh, that's when like, well, I said, >> Uh, that's when like, well, I said, >> Uh, that's when like, well, I said, well, well, well, >> how did they even know to find you at >> how did they even know to find you at >> how did they even know to find you at that time to put you on the cover? that time to put you on the cover? that time to put you on the cover? >> I actually don't know, but Forbes was >> I actually don't know, but Forbes was >> I actually don't know, but Forbes was doing a crypto edition. I see. So with doing a crypto edition. I see. So with doing a crypto edition. I see. So with all the crypto guys and then um they all the crypto guys and then um they all the crypto guys and then um they already had a picture of Italic doing a already had a picture of Italic doing a already had a picture of Italic doing a fancy hand gesture which is really cool fancy hand gesture which is really cool fancy hand gesture which is really cool picture. So um yeah so uh yeah so they picture. So um yeah so uh yeah so they picture. So um yeah so uh yeah so they they invited us they they contacted our they invited us they they contacted our they invited us they they contacted our PR department which maintains contact PR department which maintains contact PR department which maintains contact with them uh which is really team back with them uh which is really team back with them uh which is really team back then um like team of four or five girls then um like team of four or five girls then um like team of four or five girls um and H says like well Forbes want to um and H says like well Forbes want to um and H says like well Forbes want to do a special feature with you and take do a special feature with you and take do a special feature with you and take some photos I think you should go. I was some photos I think you should go. I was some photos I think you should go. I was like, I don't want to go. But I said, like, I don't want to go. But I said, like, I don't want to go. But I said, we're a new brand. Forbes can still help we're a new brand. Forbes can still help we're a new brand. Forbes can still help us, you know, uh, increase the brand us, you know, uh, increase the brand us, you know, uh, increase the brand >> with awareness. Yeah. >> with awareness. Yeah. >> with awareness. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I said, okay, fine. I'll >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I said, okay, fine. I'll >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I said, okay, fine. I'll go. So, I went to do the photo shoot. go. So, I went to do the photo shoot. go. So, I went to do the photo shoot. That was like my first photo like to put That was like my first photo like to put That was like my first photo like to put makeup on me and then the first time put makeup on me and then the first time put makeup on me and then the first time put makeup. makeup. makeup. >> Cy, what is what is money? >> Cy, what is what is money? >> Cy, what is what is money? >> Well, is it important? I mean, don't >> Well, is it important? I mean, don't >> Well, is it important? I mean, don't take this wrong way, but take this wrong way, but take this wrong way, but >> you got rich old. >> you got rich old. >> you got rich old. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, did it matter at that point? What is >> So, did it matter at that point? What is >> So, did it matter at that point? What is money when you're in your 40s and you money when you're in your 40s and you money when you're in your 40s and you make it? make it? make it? >> It still matter. Uh, but money is not >> It still matter. Uh, but money is not >> It still matter. Uh, but money is not everything. I think I was old enough everything. I think I was old enough everything. I think I was old enough that there's a couple things that that there's a couple things that that there's a couple things that happened to me. Number one is I was happened to me. Number one is I was happened to me. Number one is I was older as like 40ome. So I'm not like a older as like 40ome. So I'm not like a older as like 40ome. So I'm not like a young 20-year-old that just you know young 20-year-old that just you know young 20-year-old that just you know Lambos, big parties. Lambos, big parties. Lambos, big parties. >> Too old for that. Uh so I have also my >> Too old for that. Uh so I have also my >> Too old for that. Uh so I have also my personality is quite stable. So I don't personality is quite stable. So I don't personality is quite stable. So I don't get too excited on things. get too excited on things. get too excited on things. >> Um also the other thing not to brag but >> Um also the other thing not to brag but >> Um also the other thing not to brag but uh I went from like a barely financially uh I went from like a barely financially uh I went from like a barely financially free to like know cover forbes and I was free to like know cover forbes and I was free to like know cover forbes and I was like wait a second like how how how rich like wait a second like how how how rich like wait a second like how how how rich am I? I don't even know. I don't like am I? I don't even know. I don't like am I? I don't even know. I don't like when I look at my wallet nothing changed when I look at my wallet nothing changed when I look at my wallet nothing changed like Forbes Carver nothing changed for like Forbes Carver nothing changed for like Forbes Carver nothing changed for me. Um but then people say look now you me. Um but then people say look now you me. Um but then people say look now you might be a billionaire. I was like am I might be a billionaire. I was like am I might be a billionaire. I was like am I really a billionaire? Like it doesn't really a billionaire? Like it doesn't really a billionaire? Like it doesn't feel that way. I was like even like a feel that way. I was like even like a feel that way. I was like even like a month ago like not a month like at that month ago like not a month like at that month ago like not a month like at that time when when we fled well when we left time when when we fled well when we left time when when we fled well when we left China to go to Japan uh I booked economy China to go to Japan uh I booked economy China to go to Japan uh I booked economy classes for a redeye flight and he was classes for a redeye flight and he was classes for a redeye flight and he was like no maybe we should upgrade to a like no maybe we should upgrade to a like no maybe we should upgrade to a business class so we can lay down and business class so we can lay down and business class so we can lay down and sleep. Okay that makes sense. That's you sleep. Okay that makes sense. That's you sleep. Okay that makes sense. That's you know so like I have those kind of know so like I have those kind of know so like I have those kind of habits. So uh when you make money habits. So uh when you make money habits. So uh when you make money successively like you know you from one successively like you know you from one successively like you know you from one from 1 million you become 10 million you from 1 million you become 10 million you from 1 million you become 10 million you might want to buy some fancy cars from might want to buy some fancy cars from might want to buy some fancy cars from to 100 million you might want to buy a to 100 million you might want to buy a to 100 million you might want to buy a you know some yacht or something to a you know some yacht or something to a you know some yacht or something to a billion then you have I didn't go billion then you have I didn't go billion then you have I didn't go through that stepwise process. I just through that stepwise process. I just through that stepwise process. I just went from like a relatively okay kind of went from like a relatively okay kind of went from like a relatively okay kind of thing to like you're on the cover of thing to like you're on the cover of thing to like you're on the cover of Forbes. Forbes. Forbes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So um and so I didn't develop quite a >> So um and so I didn't develop quite a >> So um and so I didn't develop quite a lot of those habits. lot of those habits. lot of those habits. >> What does it what does it mean now? Now, >> What does it what does it mean now? Now, >> What does it what does it mean now? Now, I mean, depending on the day, I mean, depending on the day, I mean, depending on the day, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> you're a deca billionaire or a >> you're a deca billionaire or a >> you're a deca billionaire or a centiionaire. What does it all mean? centiionaire. What does it all mean? centiionaire. What does it all mean? >> I it doesn't mean very much to me. I >> I it doesn't mean very much to me. I >> I it doesn't mean very much to me. I think money is two things. Number one, think money is two things. Number one, think money is two things. Number one, you you have to take care of yourself. you you have to take care of yourself. you you have to take care of yourself. You have to have food, shelter, you You have to have food, shelter, you You have to have food, shelter, you know, know, know, >> which is very minimal amount of money. >> which is very minimal amount of money. >> which is very minimal amount of money. >> Very minimal. Like you don't need that >> Very minimal. Like you don't need that >> Very minimal. Like you don't need that much for that. much for that. much for that. >> Yeah. People can confuse themselves and >> Yeah. People can confuse themselves and >> Yeah. People can confuse themselves and create all kinds of complexity, but it create all kinds of complexity, but it create all kinds of complexity, but it doesn't take much. doesn't take much. doesn't take much. >> It doesn't take much. Um, so that I for >> It doesn't take much. Um, so that I for >> It doesn't take much. Um, so that I for sure have. So, I have I have a very I sure have. So, I have I have a very I sure have. So, I have I have a very I don't have a luxury life, but I have a don't have a luxury life, but I have a don't have a luxury life, but I have a very comfortable life, I think. Um, and very comfortable life, I think. Um, and very comfortable life, I think. Um, and then the other then the other then the other >> Sorry, what does that mean? >> Sorry, what does that mean? >> Sorry, what does that mean? >> If you look at my house, my my house >> If you look at my house, my my house >> If you look at my house, my my house like the living room water leaks every like the living room water leaks every like the living room water leaks every month or so because the the house is too month or so because the the house is too month or so because the the house is too so old. But that's the house that has so old. But that's the house that has so old. But that's the house that has that's the right size for me at right that's the right size for me at right that's the right size for me at right now. Um, no, it's not. We'll just fix it now. Um, no, it's not. We'll just fix it now. Um, no, it's not. We'll just fix it whenever it leaks. U, so that that still whenever it leaks. U, so that that still whenever it leaks. U, so that that still happens like that happened a month ago. happens like that happened a month ago. happens like that happened a month ago. So like people think I live in a very So like people think I live in a very So like people think I live in a very fancy house, you know, all this other fancy house, you know, all this other fancy house, you know, all this other craz, craz, craz, you know, it kind of fits all my family you know, it kind of fits all my family you know, it kind of fits all my family members. Yeah. members. Yeah. members. Yeah. >> Um, but it's not a it's a old house uh >> Um, but it's not a it's a old house uh >> Um, but it's not a it's a old house uh that I bought third or fourth hand, but that I bought third or fourth hand, but that I bought third or fourth hand, but it's it's in the right location. It it's it's in the right location. It it's it's in the right location. It works for me. It's in the right works for me. It's in the right works for me. It's in the right location. It's functional. Um, things location. It's functional. Um, things location. It's functional. Um, things break once in a while. It's fine. break once in a while. It's fine. break once in a while. It's fine. >> Would you say it's because you're >> Would you say it's because you're >> Would you say it's because you're practical or is it just because you're practical or is it just because you're practical or is it just because you're just not moved by just not moved by just not moved by >> I'm function driven. >> I'm function driven. >> I'm function driven. >> You're function driven. >> You're function driven. >> You're function driven. >> If it functions, I'm okay. I I don't >> If it functions, I'm okay. I I don't >> If it functions, I'm okay. I I don't care about the fanciness. I don't care care about the fanciness. I don't care care about the fanciness. I don't care about style. I don't care about colors. about style. I don't care about colors. about style. I don't care about colors. I don't care about glitting gold. And if I don't care about glitting gold. And if I don't care about glitting gold. And if it's functional, I'm okay. it's functional, I'm okay. it's functional, I'm okay. >> Right. So, uh, if it if it solves the >> Right. So, uh, if it if it solves the >> Right. So, uh, if it if it solves the problem, I'm good. problem, I'm good. problem, I'm good. >> Do you ever have bouts of insecurity? >> Do you ever have bouts of insecurity? >> Do you ever have bouts of insecurity? >> Uh, not really. I'm I I know my weaknesses, not really. I'm I I know my weaknesses, so and I learned to deal with it. So, so and I learned to deal with it. So, so and I learned to deal with it. So, uh, I'm not I hope I'm not super uh, I'm not I hope I'm not super uh, I'm not I hope I'm not super arrogant. Uh, so I don't think I'm arrogant. Uh, so I don't think I'm arrogant. Uh, so I don't think I'm arrogant. arrogant. arrogant. >> I've only gotten to know you in the last >> I've only gotten to know you in the last >> I've only gotten to know you in the last couple years. couple years. couple years. >> Yeah. I saw videos of you, I think it >> Yeah. I saw videos of you, I think it >> Yeah. I saw videos of you, I think it was in the late teens, early 2000s, was in the late teens, early 2000s, was in the late teens, early 2000s, and my immediate reaction because that's and my immediate reaction because that's and my immediate reaction because that's always been my struggle is sort of these always been my struggle is sort of these always been my struggle is sort of these bouts of insecurity, ego. I thought, bouts of insecurity, ego. I thought, bouts of insecurity, ego. I thought, man, this guy's really calm. man, this guy's really calm. man, this guy's really calm. >> Yeah. I'm I'm I'm calm. >> Yeah. I'm I'm I'm calm. >> Yeah. I'm I'm I'm calm. >> Yeah. So, I described this way. >> Yeah. So, I described this way. >> Yeah. So, I described this way. >> Very well reggulated, very self-aware, >> Very well reggulated, very self-aware, >> Very well reggulated, very self-aware, it seems. it seems. it seems. >> Yeah. Other people's emotions may go >> Yeah. Other people's emotions may go >> Yeah. Other people's emotions may go like this like happy, sad, happy. I'll like this like happy, sad, happy. I'll like this like happy, sad, happy. I'll feel happy, sad, happy, sad. But my ampl feel happy, sad, happy, sad. But my ampl feel happy, sad, happy, sad. But my ampl amplitude, amplitude, amplitude, >> the amplitude is very moderated >> the amplitude is very moderated >> the amplitude is very moderated >> is narrower. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, >> is narrower. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, >> is narrower. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, >> so it just allows you to manage in many >> so it just allows you to manage in many >> so it just allows you to manage in many ways. I mean, success is somewhat ways. I mean, success is somewhat ways. I mean, success is somewhat illusurary. If you're like working on a illusurary. If you're like working on a illusurary. If you're like working on a problem, nobody knows the toil. problem, nobody knows the toil. problem, nobody knows the toil. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Nobody really wants to hear about the >> Nobody really wants to hear about the >> Nobody really wants to hear about the toil. They want to have a very simple toil. They want to have a very simple toil. They want to have a very simple way of pointing to something and say, way of pointing to something and say, way of pointing to something and say, "Oh, wow. Look at what you have." But if "Oh, wow. Look at what you have." But if "Oh, wow. Look at what you have." But if you're working and you have no time to you're working and you have no time to you're working and you have no time to enjoy it, enjoy it, enjoy it, >> nobody understands that, you know. Yeah. >> nobody understands that, you know. Yeah. >> nobody understands that, you know. Yeah. >> Okay. So, you launched this thing, it's >> Okay. So, you launched this thing, it's >> Okay. So, you launched this thing, it's going bananas, but there were some going bananas, but there were some going bananas, but there were some hiccups. hiccups. hiccups. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Do you think that you >> Do you think that you >> Do you think that you got too addicted to the growth at any got too addicted to the growth at any got too addicted to the growth at any point? point? point? >> I wouldn't say I was addicted to the >> I wouldn't say I was addicted to the >> I wouldn't say I was addicted to the growth, but I was addicted to the work. growth, but I was addicted to the work. growth, but I was addicted to the work. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> The work was actually very satisfying, >> The work was actually very satisfying, >> The work was actually very satisfying, very rewarding. But, what was the very rewarding. But, what was the very rewarding. But, what was the average day for you? What were you average day for you? What were you average day for you? What were you trying to do? I was basically doing like trying to do? I was basically doing like trying to do? I was basically doing like 20 plus meetings a day like scheduled 20 plus meetings a day like scheduled 20 plus meetings a day like scheduled calls or meetings and then plus other calls or meetings and then plus other calls or meetings and then plus other random stuff and then having to respond random stuff and then having to respond random stuff and then having to respond to people on Twitter and uh stuff. So um to people on Twitter and uh stuff. So um to people on Twitter and uh stuff. So um but it was very rewarding because um but it was very rewarding because um but it was very rewarding because um it's there's a sense of fulfillment that it's there's a sense of fulfillment that it's there's a sense of fulfillment that is very hard to describe. It's not the is very hard to describe. It's not the is very hard to describe. It's not the money, it's not the growth. money, it's not the growth. money, it's not the growth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh it's uh you know >> Uh it's uh you know >> Uh it's uh you know >> so what Yeah. What was it when you were >> so what Yeah. What was it when you were >> so what Yeah. What was it when you were running Binance? running Binance? running Binance? I don't know if you do this, but some I don't know if you do this, but some I don't know if you do this, but some sometimes people fixate on the leading sometimes people fixate on the leading sometimes people fixate on the leading indicator like revenue is a lagging indicator like revenue is a lagging indicator like revenue is a lagging indicator, right? Revenue and profits indicator, right? Revenue and profits indicator, right? Revenue and profits are just they're here. That's from six are just they're here. That's from six are just they're here. That's from six months ago, a year ago. months ago, a year ago. months ago, a year ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Manifest today. What was your leading >> Manifest today. What was your leading >> Manifest today. What was your leading indicators? What were the north stars indicators? What were the north stars indicators? What were the north stars that you really cared about that said that you really cared about that said that you really cared about that said this is the health of the system? this is the health of the system? this is the health of the system? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really daily >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really daily >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really daily active users. It's not trading volume. active users. It's not trading volume. active users. It's not trading volume. It's not revenue. Why DAO versus those It's not revenue. Why DAO versus those It's not revenue. Why DAO versus those other things? I think as long as you other things? I think as long as you other things? I think as long as you keep helping serving more users um then keep helping serving more users um then keep helping serving more users um then you're you give them value. So I believe you're you give them value. So I believe you're you give them value. So I believe a product is valuable when people want a product is valuable when people want a product is valuable when people want to use it. to use it. to use it. >> So the more people who wants to use it >> So the more people who wants to use it >> So the more people who wants to use it even if your revenue is zero you have even if your revenue is zero you have even if your revenue is zero you have you have value. So any product that you have value. So any product that you have value. So any product that people use the more people you use it people use the more people you use it people use the more people you use it the higher value right? So that's kind the higher value right? So that's kind the higher value right? So that's kind of always my philosophy. Whereas of always my philosophy. Whereas of always my philosophy. Whereas uh you you can optimize for revenue, you uh you you can optimize for revenue, you uh you you can optimize for revenue, you can optimize for profit shortterm and can optimize for profit shortterm and can optimize for profit shortterm and you can lose the long-term growth. But I you can lose the long-term growth. But I you can lose the long-term growth. But I believe long-term if you have a large believe long-term if you have a large believe long-term if you have a large number of people using your platform, number of people using your platform, number of people using your platform, that's where you create value. Not just that's where you create value. Not just that's where you create value. Not just for yourself, you also create value for for yourself, you also create value for for yourself, you also create value for your users. People choose to use you your users. People choose to use you your users. People choose to use you because there's a value in using you, because there's a value in using you, because there's a value in using you, right? So that's kind of my my my right? So that's kind of my my my right? So that's kind of my my my northstar. And northstar. And northstar. And >> also knowing that related to that was >> also knowing that related to that was >> also knowing that related to that was knowing that hundreds of millions of knowing that hundreds of millions of knowing that hundreds of millions of people are using us, we help them, people are using us, we help them, people are using us, we help them, right? So the way I view is if they pay right? So the way I view is if they pay right? So the way I view is if they pay like you know a commission fee that like you know a commission fee that like you know a commission fee that they're willing to pay because we we we they're willing to pay because we we we they're willing to pay because we we we must have given them some higher value. must have given them some higher value. must have given them some higher value. >> One of the double-edged sword of the DAO >> One of the double-edged sword of the DAO >> One of the double-edged sword of the DAO >> is that some of those DAO are >> is that some of those DAO are >> is that some of those DAO are bad actors. bad actors. bad actors. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> When was the first inkling that you had >> When was the first inkling that you had >> When was the first inkling that you had that that may be a problem and that you that that may be a problem and that you that that may be a problem and that you have to take that seriously? have to take that seriously? have to take that seriously? >> It was like I think >> It was like I think >> It was like I think >> what does that first meeting look like >> what does that first meeting look like >> what does that first meeting look like where they're like CZ I have good news where they're like CZ I have good news where they're like CZ I have good news and bad news. and bad news. and bad news. >> Yeah. Yeah. I there's actually a very >> Yeah. Yeah. I there's actually a very >> Yeah. Yeah. I there's actually a very clear point. I think it was like clear point. I think it was like clear point. I think it was like Christmas day January 1st or like you Christmas day January 1st or like you Christmas day January 1st or like you know New Year day January 1st 2018. So know New Year day January 1st 2018. So know New Year day January 1st 2018. So this is like six five months after you this is like six five months after you this is like six five months after you know we we were kind of large uh well or know we we were kind of large uh well or know we we were kind of large uh well or five months after we started and we're five months after we started and we're five months after we started and we're kind of we were number one uh exchange kind of we were number one uh exchange kind of we were number one uh exchange already on that New Year's Eve uh already on that New Year's Eve uh already on that New Year's Eve uh December 31stish uh 2017 a US Homeland December 31stish uh 2017 a US Homeland December 31stish uh 2017 a US Homeland Security guy reached out to me. Um his Security guy reached out to me. Um his Security guy reached out to me. Um his name I think is Joseph. Um I always name I think is Joseph. Um I always name I think is Joseph. Um I always remember his name is Patrick or Joseph. remember his name is Patrick or Joseph. remember his name is Patrick or Joseph. I'm not sure which one. I'm not sure which one. I'm not sure which one. >> Okay. um he wrote an email and then I >> Okay. um he wrote an email and then I >> Okay. um he wrote an email and then I got the email and said like well he got the email and said like well he got the email and said like well he wants to he wants our help to help track wants to he wants our help to help track wants to he wants our help to help track some hackers who may have moved funds of some hackers who may have moved funds of some hackers who may have moved funds of the Ether Delta hack. Either Delta was a the Ether Delta hack. Either Delta was a the Ether Delta hack. Either Delta was a decentralized exchange back in 2017 that decentralized exchange back in 2017 that decentralized exchange back in 2017 that got hacked that went down. Um so this got hacked that went down. Um so this got hacked that went down. Um so this guy who works for the US government uh guy who works for the US government uh guy who works for the US government uh emailed us and I I didn't know how to emailed us and I I didn't know how to emailed us and I I didn't know how to deal with it. Nobody on our team knows deal with it. Nobody on our team knows deal with it. Nobody on our team knows how to deal with law enforcement. So um how to deal with law enforcement. So um how to deal with law enforcement. So um I you know got a couple guys to huddle I you know got a couple guys to huddle I you know got a couple guys to huddle up together say how how do we help this up together say how how do we help this up together say how how do we help this guy? Uh and then we gave the information guy? Uh and then we gave the information guy? Uh and then we gave the information that he requested. We verified who first that he requested. We verified who first that he requested. We verified who first we had to verify who he was. And then um we had to verify who he was. And then um we had to verify who he was. And then um uh and then afterwards he thanked us uh uh and then afterwards he thanked us uh uh and then afterwards he thanked us uh and then I said, "Hey, um Joseph, can and then I said, "Hey, um Joseph, can and then I said, "Hey, um Joseph, can you recommend somebody that we could you recommend somebody that we could you recommend somebody that we could hire that can interface with law hire that can interface with law hire that can interface with law enforcement in the future?" He enforcement in the future?" He enforcement in the future?" He recommended someone, but it the guy was recommended someone, but it the guy was recommended someone, but it the guy was based in the US and we don't have a US based in the US and we don't have a US based in the US and we don't have a US entity. We we couldn't hire anybody in entity. We we couldn't hire anybody in entity. We we couldn't hire anybody in the US back then. So we kind of had to the US back then. So we kind of had to the US back then. So we kind of had to let that go. But that was the point. It let that go. But that was the point. It let that go. But that was the point. It was like um New Year's Day. Uh I was like um New Year's Day. Uh I was like um New Year's Day. Uh I actually remember actually remember actually remember >> where you were like this is going to >> where you were like this is going to >> where you were like this is going to happen more happen more happen more >> obviously >> obviously >> obviously >> invariably of large numbers. >> invariably of large numbers. >> invariably of large numbers. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that that's the day when >> Yeah. Yeah. So that that's the day when >> Yeah. Yeah. So that that's the day when I realized okay look we need to we need I realized okay look we need to we need I realized okay look we need to we need we need to have somebody who has we need to have somebody who has we need to have somebody who has experience working with law enforcement experience working with law enforcement experience working with law enforcement >> and so what did you do? >> and so what did you do? >> and so what did you do? >> So we we eventually hired we hired more >> So we we eventually hired we hired more >> So we we eventually hired we hired more guys. Yeah. guys. Yeah. guys. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Obviously like you're not looking at the >> Obviously like you're not looking at the >> Obviously like you're not looking at the transactions. So you wouldn't know. But transactions. So you wouldn't know. But transactions. So you wouldn't know. But if we fast forward a little bit, the if we fast forward a little bit, the if we fast forward a little bit, the claims that then the US government under claims that then the US government under claims that then the US government under President Biden made at you President Biden made at you President Biden made at you was essentially that people like Hamas was essentially that people like Hamas was essentially that people like Hamas or people like other organizations were or people like other organizations were or people like other organizations were using Binance and you didn't do enough. using Binance and you didn't do enough. using Binance and you didn't do enough. >> Yeah. So uh on this point I may have >> Yeah. So uh on this point I may have >> Yeah. So uh on this point I may have some legal restrictions on what I can some legal restrictions on what I can some legal restrictions on what I can say and cannot say about know the plea say and cannot say about know the plea say and cannot say about know the plea the etc. So I I'm not a lawyer but I'm I the etc. So I I'm not a lawyer but I'm I the etc. So I I'm not a lawyer but I'm I try to stay very clear from that. But try to stay very clear from that. But try to stay very clear from that. But overall though, I would just say um the overall though, I would just say um the overall though, I would just say um the Biden administration overall is quite Biden administration overall is quite Biden administration overall is quite hostile to crypto. I mean they openly hostile to crypto. I mean they openly hostile to crypto. I mean they openly announced war on crypto. Yeah. Right. So announced war on crypto. Yeah. Right. So announced war on crypto. Yeah. Right. So uh it's good to see this new uh it's good to see this new uh it's good to see this new administration change 180 degrees. I administration change 180 degrees. I administration change 180 degrees. I think that's this is good for America. think that's this is good for America. think that's this is good for America. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh this is good for the world. >> Uh this is good for the world. >> Uh this is good for the world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So uh I think it was I wouldn't blame >> So uh I think it was I wouldn't blame >> So uh I think it was I wouldn't blame the previous administration, but I think the previous administration, but I think the previous administration, but I think they just didn't understand. they just didn't understand. they just didn't understand. >> Why do you think that they were so >> Why do you think that they were so >> Why do you think that they were so hostile to it? hostile to it? hostile to it? >> It's fear of the new as that as simple >> It's fear of the new as that as simple >> It's fear of the new as that as simple as that. uh I think they probably in as that. uh I think they probably in as that. uh I think they probably in their heads uh there's some degree of their heads uh there's some degree of their heads uh there's some degree of let's not disrupt the current financial let's not disrupt the current financial let's not disrupt the current financial system the banks whoever else um there's system the banks whoever else um there's system the banks whoever else um there's probably a lot of lobbying from those probably a lot of lobbying from those probably a lot of lobbying from those industries as well to them so that kind industries as well to them so that kind industries as well to them so that kind of brainwash or affect the thinking of brainwash or affect the thinking of brainwash or affect the thinking however you call it however you call it however you call it >> so that's human nature I mean if you >> so that's human nature I mean if you >> so that's human nature I mean if you think about it it's understandable it's think about it it's understandable it's think about it it's understandable it's not ideal but uh it's understandable not ideal but uh it's understandable not ideal but uh it's understandable >> so you're running the exchange things >> so you're running the exchange things >> so you're running the exchange things are going well from 2018 2019 2020 are going well from 2018 2019 2020 are going well from 2018 2019 2020 >> it's kind of like you're really coming >> it's kind of like you're really coming >> it's kind of like you're really coming into your own. into your own. into your own. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You eventually opened a US entity. >> You eventually opened a US entity. >> You eventually opened a US entity. >> Uh yeah, in 2019. Yeah. >> Uh yeah, in 2019. Yeah. >> Uh yeah, in 2019. Yeah. >> And why did you feel the need to do >> And why did you feel the need to do >> And why did you feel the need to do that? that? that? >> So 2019 there was some news about no US >> So 2019 there was some news about no US >> So 2019 there was some news about no US governments basically in my layman words governments basically in my layman words governments basically in my layman words chasing BitMax. There was some Big Mac chasing BitMax. There was some Big Mac chasing BitMax. There was some Big Mac in the news. Uh there were some also in the news. Uh there were some also in the news. Uh there were some also Bitfinex stuff in the news. Uh I think Bitfinex stuff in the news. Uh I think Bitfinex stuff in the news. Uh I think the US government frozen froze at least the US government frozen froze at least the US government frozen froze at least the Poland government froze like six to the Poland government froze like six to the Poland government froze like six to $800 million of their assets when their $800 million of their assets when their $800 million of their assets when their market cap was market cap was market cap was >> only like four billion. That's like a >> only like four billion. That's like a >> only like four billion. That's like a large chunk. And then they got sued large chunk. And then they got sued large chunk. And then they got sued later on by the US government saying later on by the US government saying later on by the US government saying that they don't have enough reserves. that they don't have enough reserves. that they don't have enough reserves. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So we saw those news and we're like okay >> So we saw those news and we're like okay >> So we saw those news and we're like okay well the US government is looking at well the US government is looking at well the US government is looking at this industry and we better register and this industry and we better register and this industry and we better register and you know again I asked my friends my you know again I asked my friends my you know again I asked my friends my many of them have legal backgrounds and many of them have legal backgrounds and many of them have legal backgrounds and then they sort of general consensus was then they sort of general consensus was then they sort of general consensus was okay we got to we we should operate in a okay we got to we we should operate in a okay we got to we we should operate in a registered faction in the US. So this is registered faction in the US. So this is registered faction in the US. So this is 2019. Um so we registered Binance US and 2019. Um so we registered Binance US and 2019. Um so we registered Binance US and um it's a separate entities. It's a um it's a separate entities. It's a um it's a separate entities. It's a separate deployment. Uh it's a separate separate deployment. Uh it's a separate separate deployment. Uh it's a separate matching engine, separate liquidity. So matching engine, separate liquidity. So matching engine, separate liquidity. So and Binance US has been regulated from and Binance US has been regulated from and Binance US has been regulated from day one. Yeah. day one. Yeah. day one. Yeah. >> 2019, 2020, 2021 things are just >> 2019, 2020, 2021 things are just >> 2019, 2020, 2021 things are just generally working. generally working. generally working. >> Generally. Generally. Yeah. Yeah. >> Generally. Generally. Yeah. Yeah. >> Generally. Generally. Yeah. Yeah. >> Then you start to see some of these >> Then you start to see some of these >> Then you start to see some of these other folks start to pick up steam. SPF other folks start to pick up steam. SPF other folks start to pick up steam. SPF and FTX start to really Tell me about and FTX start to really Tell me about and FTX start to really Tell me about that. that. that. Um uh Um uh Um uh >> how did you meet him? Because you ended >> how did you meet him? Because you ended >> how did you meet him? Because you ended up owning a lot of the equity. up owning a lot of the equity. up owning a lot of the equity. >> Yeah. Yeah. So well we we we invested in >> Yeah. Yeah. So well we we we invested in >> Yeah. Yeah. So well we we we invested in them only 20% as equity at some point them only 20% as equity at some point them only 20% as equity at some point and then we exited a year a year later. and then we exited a year a year later. and then we exited a year a year later. Yeah. Um we didn't we didn't stay there Yeah. Um we didn't we didn't stay there Yeah. Um we didn't we didn't stay there for very long. for very long. for very long. >> Uh I think I'm first met him in January >> Uh I think I'm first met him in January >> Uh I think I'm first met him in January 2019 in one of the Singapore conferences 2019 in one of the Singapore conferences 2019 in one of the Singapore conferences Binance organized. Binance organized. Binance organized. >> I think at the time FDX did not exist. >> I think at the time FDX did not exist. >> I think at the time FDX did not exist. uh uh Sam uh Bankerman Freed SBF was uh uh Sam uh Bankerman Freed SBF was uh uh Sam uh Bankerman Freed SBF was running um Alamea and they hosted an running um Alamea and they hosted an running um Alamea and they hosted an afterparty in the S uh Singapore uh afterparty in the S uh Singapore uh afterparty in the S uh Singapore uh aquarium uh on Sentosa and they had aquarium uh on Sentosa and they had aquarium uh on Sentosa and they had divers in the fish tank you know holding divers in the fish tank you know holding divers in the fish tank you know holding a sign with etc. So they were they were a sign with etc. So they were they were a sign with etc. So they were they were like a VIP client they were like a large like a VIP client they were like a large like a VIP client they were like a large trader on Binance so we're friendly to trader on Binance so we're friendly to trader on Binance so we're friendly to them. them. them. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. So that was in January 2019 and >> Yeah. So that was in January 2019 and >> Yeah. So that was in January 2019 and then a couple months later they came to then a couple months later they came to then a couple months later they came to us saying look they want to start a us saying look they want to start a us saying look they want to start a futures platform. They proposed a futures platform. They proposed a futures platform. They proposed a futures platform uh some kind of a JV uh futures platform uh some kind of a JV uh futures platform uh some kind of a JV uh that I I can't remember exactly but I that I I can't remember exactly but I that I I can't remember exactly but I think they proposed 6040 in our favor. think they proposed 6040 in our favor. think they proposed 6040 in our favor. Uh we we want I thought about countering Uh we we want I thought about countering Uh we we want I thought about countering propos like we have we had all the users propos like we have we had all the users propos like we have we had all the users they don't have anything back then. I they don't have anything back then. I they don't have anything back then. I thought about counterproposing like 955 thought about counterproposing like 955 thought about counterproposing like 955 but I don't think that was very polite. but I don't think that was very polite. but I don't think that was very polite. They're still like a trader. They still They're still like a trader. They still They're still like a trader. They still like a VIP client. like a VIP client. like a VIP client. >> So we declined that. We said no. Um >> So we declined that. We said no. Um >> So we declined that. We said no. Um >> because they were a crucial part of the >> because they were a crucial part of the >> because they were a crucial part of the liquidity pool. liquidity pool. liquidity pool. >> Uh not a crucial part. They're a large >> Uh not a crucial part. They're a large >> Uh not a crucial part. They're a large trader but you know Binance they they trader but you know Binance they they trader but you know Binance they they were new too. They they it wasn't like were new too. They they it wasn't like were new too. They they it wasn't like they were there for like many years. they were there for like many years. they were there for like many years. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> They were only there for like know >> They were only there for like know >> They were only there for like know probably six months or a year. I don't probably six months or a year. I don't probably six months or a year. I don't know the exact uh dates. know the exact uh dates. know the exact uh dates. >> Um and then uh uh mid like a little bit >> Um and then uh uh mid like a little bit >> Um and then uh uh mid like a little bit later they came back with a better later they came back with a better later they came back with a better offer. Said look we uh uh like in summer offer. Said look we uh uh like in summer offer. Said look we uh uh like in summer they came back with a better offer. We they came back with a better offer. We they came back with a better offer. We still said no. Um and then in in still said no. Um and then in in still said no. Um and then in in November they came back said okay look November they came back said okay look November they came back said okay look we're going to offer you this really we're going to offer you this really we're going to offer you this really really attractive offer. But then FTX really attractive offer. But then FTX really attractive offer. But then FTX was launched. Have some volume. and they was launched. Have some volume. and they was launched. Have some volume. and they said look we're going to give we're said look we're going to give we're said look we're going to give we're going to basically give you 20% at this going to basically give you 20% at this going to basically give you 20% at this at this price and there was a swap of at this price and there was a swap of at this price and there was a swap of tokens B&B versus u FT tokens so that's tokens B&B versus u FT tokens so that's tokens B&B versus u FT tokens so that's we got some initial uh FT tokens at the we got some initial uh FT tokens at the we got some initial uh FT tokens at the time B&B tokens are much more liquid and time B&B tokens are much more liquid and time B&B tokens are much more liquid and FT tokens are less liquid so um we done FT tokens are less liquid so um we done FT tokens are less liquid so um we done that deal and then um almost as soon as that deal and then um almost as soon as that deal and then um almost as soon as we did that deal I keep hearing from my we did that deal I keep hearing from my we did that deal I keep hearing from my friends like you know SBF badmouthing us friends like you know SBF badmouthing us friends like you know SBF badmouthing us in the Washington circles in the US etc. in the Washington circles in the US etc. in the Washington circles in the US etc. I was like, "Come on." And then um they I was like, "Come on." And then um they I was like, "Come on." And then um they also did some other stuff which which is also did some other stuff which which is also did some other stuff which which is kind of annoying. Uh they they pay five kind of annoying. Uh they they pay five kind of annoying. Uh they they pay five times salary uh of to our VIP uh uh times salary uh of to our VIP uh uh times salary uh of to our VIP uh uh account managers uh that had access to account managers uh that had access to account managers uh that had access to our VIP database and then so that girl our VIP database and then so that girl our VIP database and then so that girl goes goes working for we if we match goes goes working for we if we match goes goes working for we if we match that girl then we have to 5x everybody. that girl then we have to 5x everybody. that girl then we have to 5x everybody. So like okay you you go work for them So like okay you you go work for them So like okay you you go work for them and then and then and then >> the day after the girl go works for them >> the day after the girl go works for them >> the day after the girl go works for them our VIP clients gets called saying look our VIP clients gets called saying look our VIP clients gets called saying look they going to get a better rate on FTX they going to get a better rate on FTX they going to get a better rate on FTX etc. Like so I called Sam said like can etc. Like so I called Sam said like can etc. Like so I called Sam said like can you stop doing this? We're like we're you stop doing this? We're like we're you stop doing this? We're like we're your shareholder at the same time he's your shareholder at the same time he's your shareholder at the same time he's like look see like can we do a onetoone like look see like can we do a onetoone like look see like can we do a onetoone panel on a crypto event right so fine panel on a crypto event right so fine panel on a crypto event right so fine and we're an investor we want we want to and we're an investor we want we want to and we're an investor we want we want to help promote it. I actually want help promote it. I actually want help promote it. I actually want multiple exchanges to be to be multiple exchanges to be to be multiple exchanges to be to be successful in the industry because then successful in the industry because then successful in the industry because then we wouldn't be the ones that get we wouldn't be the ones that get we wouldn't be the ones that get targeted all the time. targeted all the time. targeted all the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But there was always like no I always >> But there was always like no I always >> But there was always like no I always keep hearing there was some bad mouthing keep hearing there was some bad mouthing keep hearing there was some bad mouthing some other this and that. So a year some other this and that. So a year some other this and that. So a year later, I think it was mid early 2021, we later, I think it was mid early 2021, we later, I think it was mid early 2021, we said uh and they were they were claiming said uh and they were they were claiming said uh and they were they were claiming to be like raising money at you know 32 to be like raising money at you know 32 to be like raising money at you know 32 billion valuations. We're like, well, billion valuations. We're like, well, billion valuations. We're like, well, why don't we exit actually? So, in our why don't we exit actually? So, in our why don't we exit actually? So, in our investment clause, we had veto rights on investment clause, we had veto rights on investment clause, we had veto rights on any future rounds, right? So, if you any future rounds, right? So, if you any future rounds, right? So, if you want to block them, we could. I didn't want to block them, we could. I didn't want to block them, we could. I didn't want to use that to block them. Uh want to use that to block them. Uh want to use that to block them. Uh >> oh, wow. >> oh, wow. >> oh, wow. >> So, I was like, you know, even if why >> So, I was like, you know, even if why >> So, I was like, you know, even if why don't we just exit and we can compete, don't we just exit and we can compete, don't we just exit and we can compete, >> right? So um and then we thought we we >> right? So um and then we thought we we >> right? So um and then we thought we we talked about exit and then we exited I talked about exit and then we exited I talked about exit and then we exited I think in if I remember correctly it was think in if I remember correctly it was think in if I remember correctly it was in July the deal was finalized and the in July the deal was finalized and the in July the deal was finalized and the transfer was done in July 2021 and this transfer was done in July 2021 and this transfer was done in July 2021 and this is like a full a full year and a half is like a full a full year and a half is like a full a full year and a half before they had issues at the time we before they had issues at the time we before they had issues at the time we didn't know didn't know didn't know >> right because there was some rumors that >> right because there was some rumors that >> right because there was some rumors that a lot of their issues started after you a lot of their issues started after you a lot of their issues started after you sold and they were somehow conjoined. sold and they were somehow conjoined. sold and they were somehow conjoined. I'm sure you've heard of that but you I'm sure you've heard of that but you I'm sure you've heard of that but you can put all of that to bed. can put all of that to bed. can put all of that to bed. >> Yeah. So that's categorically not true. >> Yeah. So that's categorically not true. >> Yeah. So that's categorically not true. And also because of the competitive And also because of the competitive And also because of the competitive nature in the businesses, even though nature in the businesses, even though nature in the businesses, even though we're a shareholder, I never really I we're a shareholder, I never really I we're a shareholder, I never really I never ask them for for financial never ask them for for financial never ask them for for financial statements. statements. statements. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> So I just, you know, I just didn't ask >> So I just, you know, I just didn't ask >> So I just, you know, I just didn't ask for it. I'm a very passive investor. So for it. I'm a very passive investor. So for it. I'm a very passive investor. So when I invest, I don't get involved in when I invest, I don't get involved in when I invest, I don't get involved in their business. their business. their business. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and they also they're slightly >> Um and they also they're slightly >> Um and they also they're slightly competitive. We have we had a futures competitive. We have we had a futures competitive. We have we had a futures platform. They had they have a futures platform. They had they have a futures platform. They had they have a futures platform. So I try to stay no let them platform. So I try to stay no let them platform. So I try to stay no let them do their thing. do their thing. do their thing. >> So post this the thing with the FTX >> So post this the thing with the FTX >> So post this the thing with the FTX thing that most people talk about are a thing that most people talk about are a thing that most people talk about are a couple things. One was the way in which couple things. One was the way in which couple things. One was the way in which the restitution happened was suboptimal the restitution happened was suboptimal the restitution happened was suboptimal to some of the holders of of FTX people to some of the holders of of FTX people to some of the holders of of FTX people who had cash money there. The other who had cash money there. The other who had cash money there. The other thing that people talk about is the thing that people talk about is the thing that people talk about is the value of some of these investments post. value of some of these investments post. value of some of these investments post. >> What do you think in the aftermath of >> What do you think in the aftermath of >> What do you think in the aftermath of all of this? It says anything at all all of this? It says anything at all all of this? It says anything at all about the industry or about the industry or about the industry or >> um I don't crypto in general or Yeah. I >> um I don't crypto in general or Yeah. I >> um I don't crypto in general or Yeah. I don't understand the whole uh bankruptcy don't understand the whole uh bankruptcy don't understand the whole uh bankruptcy process whether that's fair or not. Um I process whether that's fair or not. Um I process whether that's fair or not. Um I read a lot of different things online. read a lot of different things online. read a lot of different things online. Also um just to be transparent, there's Also um just to be transparent, there's Also um just to be transparent, there's an ongoing lawsuit between the state and an ongoing lawsuit between the state and an ongoing lawsuit between the state and us. they want to try to claw back some us. they want to try to claw back some us. they want to try to claw back some of the money that we got like a year and of the money that we got like a year and of the money that we got like a year and a half before, a half before, a half before, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So there's probably limited stuff I can >> So there's probably limited stuff I can >> So there's probably limited stuff I can comment on that. comment on that. comment on that. >> Um, yeah, but again, I'm not an expert >> Um, yeah, but again, I'm not an expert >> Um, yeah, but again, I'm not an expert there, but I did hear some complaints there, but I did hear some complaints there, but I did hear some complaints about, you know, some Chinese users not about, you know, some Chinese users not about, you know, some Chinese users not allegible, etc., etc., but now from what allegible, etc., etc., but now from what allegible, etc., etc., but now from what I read is the the because of their I read is the the because of their I read is the the because of their appreciation of crypto now in US dollar appreciation of crypto now in US dollar appreciation of crypto now in US dollar terms, uh, they have enough uh, right? terms, uh, they have enough uh, right? terms, uh, they have enough uh, right? >> Even though if people held crypto back >> Even though if people held crypto back >> Even though if people held crypto back then, they probably have gotten more. I then, they probably have gotten more. I then, they probably have gotten more. I don't know what the deal is. When did don't know what the deal is. When did don't know what the deal is. When did things at Binance things at Binance things at Binance start to get complicated for you? start to get complicated for you? start to get complicated for you? >> You mean with the US governments, right? >> You mean with the US governments, right? >> You mean with the US governments, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> For me like uh they started asking for >> For me like uh they started asking for >> For me like uh they started asking for information the information requests information the information requests information the information requests which we always comply, right? So that which we always comply, right? So that which we always comply, right? So that was like 2021 2022ish was like 2021 2022ish was like 2021 2022ish and it was like uh late 2022 it was and it was like uh late 2022 it was and it was like uh late 2022 it was getting more hostile. Um, and then I getting more hostile. Um, and then I getting more hostile. Um, and then I think in early 2023 was more clear that think in early 2023 was more clear that think in early 2023 was more clear that they were making uh they were uh we they were making uh they were uh we they were making uh they were uh we either reach a deal of some kind or either reach a deal of some kind or either reach a deal of some kind or they're going to indict us or stuff like they're going to indict us or stuff like they're going to indict us or stuff like that. There was like it became that. There was like it became that. There was like it became negotiations. How do you deal with that negotiations. How do you deal with that negotiations. How do you deal with that as a person? Do you think I can't as a person? Do you think I can't as a person? Do you think I can't believe this is happening? Like when believe this is happening? Like when believe this is happening? Like when you're in this meeting and your lawyers you're in this meeting and your lawyers you're in this meeting and your lawyers or whoever it is are telling you, hey or whoever it is are telling you, hey or whoever it is are telling you, hey CZ, I think there's going to be an CZ, I think there's going to be an CZ, I think there's going to be an indictment. indictment. indictment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't How does that meeting go? >> I don't How does that meeting go? >> I don't How does that meeting go? >> So, uh, number one, I'm not a legal >> So, uh, number one, I'm not a legal >> So, uh, number one, I'm not a legal background, so I had to rely on a lot of background, so I had to rely on a lot of background, so I had to rely on a lot of other people's advice. That's generally other people's advice. That's generally other people's advice. That's generally the harder part for me because I don't the harder part for me because I don't the harder part for me because I don't have experience there like no no one has have experience there like no no one has have experience there like no no one has experience going through this. You go experience going through this. You go experience going through this. You go through this once you never want to through this once you never want to through this once you never want to touch it again. Right. So um so no one touch it again. Right. So um so no one touch it again. Right. So um so no one really on on the receiving end have any really on on the receiving end have any really on on the receiving end have any experience. Um you have a bunch of experience. Um you have a bunch of experience. Um you have a bunch of lawyers and the lawyers are the lawyers lawyers and the lawyers are the lawyers lawyers and the lawyers are the lawyers I think are good but how you organize I think are good but how you organize I think are good but how you organize lawyers actually is quite tricky. If we lawyers actually is quite tricky. If we lawyers actually is quite tricky. If we hire a bunch of expensive lawyers, they hire a bunch of expensive lawyers, they hire a bunch of expensive lawyers, they all have different specialties and they all have different specialties and they all have different specialties and they all have different opinions all have different opinions all have different opinions >> and they all want to seem like the >> and they all want to seem like the >> and they all want to seem like the smartest person that's driving the smartest person that's driving the smartest person that's driving the decision decision decision >> and also they they all want to take a >> and also they they all want to take a >> and also they they all want to take a lot of time to analyze. They get paid by lot of time to analyze. They get paid by lot of time to analyze. They get paid by more time they spend. Um I'm not saying more time they spend. Um I'm not saying more time they spend. Um I'm not saying that they're unethical. They they want that they're unethical. They they want that they're unethical. They they want to do a really good job. to do a really good job. to do a really good job. >> Um but then they go in all kind of >> Um but then they go in all kind of >> Um but then they go in all kind of different tangents. Um so you get different tangents. Um so you get different tangents. Um so you get dragged in a lot of different different dragged in a lot of different different dragged in a lot of different different places. That was the most troublesome places. That was the most troublesome places. That was the most troublesome part for me. If somebody told me like part for me. If somebody told me like part for me. If somebody told me like this are the three things you got to this are the three things you got to this are the three things you got to focus on this is you know you got to focus on this is you know you got to focus on this is you know you got to this strategy. We also didn't have a this strategy. We also didn't have a this strategy. We also didn't have a strong legal team. Uh our team is young. strong legal team. Uh our team is young. strong legal team. Uh our team is young. Uh we we our our legal team didn't have Uh we we our our legal team didn't have Uh we we our our legal team didn't have this type of experience dealing dealing this type of experience dealing dealing this type of experience dealing dealing with this type of uh uh uh issues. So with this type of uh uh uh issues. So with this type of uh uh uh issues. So that was always tricky. But I kind of that was always tricky. But I kind of that was always tricky. But I kind of look at when I come by the way where was look at when I come by the way where was look at when I come by the way where was the entire team at this point still the entire team at this point still the entire team at this point still >> this we're all spread out >> this we're all spread out >> this we're all spread out >> now. You're everywhere. >> now. You're everywhere. >> now. You're everywhere. >> We're now we're everywhere. We're spread >> We're now we're everywhere. We're spread >> We're now we're everywhere. We're spread out. And I think I 2023 I was in Dubai. out. And I think I 2023 I was in Dubai. out. And I think I 2023 I was in Dubai. Uh I was in Abu Dhabi Dubai split in Uh I was in Abu Dhabi Dubai split in Uh I was in Abu Dhabi Dubai split in time. So um yeah it it was very time. So um yeah it it was very time. So um yeah it it was very stressful um but the way I deal with stressful um but the way I deal with stressful um but the way I deal with stress is I just look at the best and stress is I just look at the best and stress is I just look at the best and worst case scenarios right so um say worst case scenarios right so um say worst case scenarios right so um say asked team what's the best case scenario asked team what's the best case scenario asked team what's the best case scenario okay you pay a fine you get a you know okay you pay a fine you get a you know okay you pay a fine you get a you know you get a DPA or then this this thing's you get a DPA or then this this thing's you get a DPA or then this this thing's over then okay so that's the best case over then okay so that's the best case over then okay so that's the best case and then the worst case okay so they and then the worst case okay so they and then the worst case okay so they were going to ask you to they're going were going to ask you to they're going were going to ask you to they're going to try to put you in jail um stuff like to try to put you in jail um stuff like to try to put you in jail um stuff like that that that >> was that the worst case though because >> was that the worst case though because >> was that the worst case though because at the time it seemed like the fact at the time it seemed like the fact at the time it seemed like the fact pattern was folks would get some sort of pattern was folks would get some sort of pattern was folks would get some sort of probation or probation or probation or >> that would be the worst worst case but >> that would be the worst worst case but >> that would be the worst worst case but also uh yeah so performing nobody got also uh yeah so performing nobody got also uh yeah so performing nobody got put in jail but they they could ask for put in jail but they they could ask for put in jail but they they could ask for it. it. it. >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. There's >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. There's >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. There's actually another worst case which is you actually another worst case which is you actually another worst case which is you fight it and then you if you if you come fight it and then you if you if you come fight it and then you if you if you come if you can't agree on a term you fight if you can't agree on a term you fight if you can't agree on a term you fight it and you stay in the UAE which is a it and you stay in the UAE which is a it and you stay in the UAE which is a non-extradition country and you know and non-extradition country and you know and non-extradition country and you know and now you have citizenship and so they now you have citizenship and so they now you have citizenship and so they there's almost zero chance you'll get there's almost zero chance you'll get there's almost zero chance you'll get extradited but then your travel is going extradited but then your travel is going extradited but then your travel is going to be limited anytime if if you cross to to be limited anytime if if you cross to to be limited anytime if if you cross to a different country even if that country a different country even if that country a different country even if that country is a non-extragene country that can is a non-extragene country that can is a non-extragene country that can still be a chance that there's a deal still be a chance that there's a deal still be a chance that there's a deal being made right it's kind of leaving being made right it's kind of leaving being made right it's kind of leaving fear so fear so fear so >> plus it also creates complexity just at >> plus it also creates complexity just at >> plus it also creates complexity just at governmentto government level if folks governmentto government level if folks governmentto government level if folks are allies and it just it just creates a are allies and it just it just creates a are allies and it just it just creates a lot of noise lot of noise lot of noise >> it creates a lot of noise it also >> it creates a lot of noise it also >> it creates a lot of noise it also creates a lot of pressure for the UAE creates a lot of pressure for the UAE creates a lot of pressure for the UAE government potentially I don't want to government potentially I don't want to government potentially I don't want to trouble people who gave me a citizenship trouble people who gave me a citizenship trouble people who gave me a citizenship >> I don't want to be the trouble causer >> I don't want to be the trouble causer >> I don't want to be the trouble causer >> right >> right >> right >> right so um and uh so but you know there >> right so um and uh so but you know there >> right so um and uh so but you know there are the the worst case scenario is like are the the worst case scenario is like are the the worst case scenario is like you know you don't go there they indict you know you don't go there they indict you know you don't go there they indict you and then you they put you on the red you and then you they put you on the red you and then you they put you on the red notice list notice list notice list >> um stuff like that right so that those >> um stuff like that right so that those >> um stuff like that right so that those you know those those are potential you know those those are potential you know those those are potential possibilities yeah so how did you possibilities yeah so how did you possibilities yeah so how did you resolve It took like the negotiations resolve It took like the negotiations resolve It took like the negotiations like was basically daily calls with with like was basically daily calls with with like was basically daily calls with with like 12 20 lawyers on call for like more like 12 20 lawyers on call for like more like 12 20 lawyers on call for like more than a year. than a year. than a year. >> Uh more than a year more than a year >> Uh more than a year more than a year >> Uh more than a year more than a year >> of back and forth with the president >> of back and forth with the president >> of back and forth with the president Biden DOJ Biden DOJ Biden DOJ >> the president Biden DOJ and and the most >> the president Biden DOJ and and the most >> the president Biden DOJ and and the most common thing I hear from my lawyers is common thing I hear from my lawyers is common thing I hear from my lawyers is we have never seen them this hostile on we have never seen them this hostile on we have never seen them this hostile on a case like this. a case like this. a case like this. >> Right. We have never seen this before. >> Right. We have never seen this before. >> Right. We have never seen this before. This is this like that's the most common This is this like that's the most common This is this like that's the most common phrase my I've heard. At some point you phrase my I've heard. At some point you phrase my I've heard. At some point you just become desensitized to it or do you just become desensitized to it or do you just become desensitized to it or do you keep internalizing it, personalizing it? keep internalizing it, personalizing it? keep internalizing it, personalizing it? You think why is this happening to me? You think why is this happening to me? You think why is this happening to me? No resentment or just more how did you No resentment or just more how did you No resentment or just more how did you deal with it? I'm just deal with it? I'm just deal with it? I'm just >> It takes it takes successive steps and >> It takes it takes successive steps and >> It takes it takes successive steps and there were a couple steps which are there were a couple steps which are there were a couple steps which are really hard to take. Um the step where really hard to take. Um the step where really hard to take. Um the step where you say look in the negotiations right you say look in the negotiations right you say look in the negotiations right they come to a few points where you say they come to a few points where you say they come to a few points where you say look we just we're just going to have to look we just we're just going to have to look we just we're just going to have to say no. Um and it's like look we just say no. Um and it's like look we just say no. Um and it's like look we just can't agree to that deal. They wouldn't can't agree to that deal. They wouldn't can't agree to that deal. They wouldn't back off and I couldn't agree to that back off and I couldn't agree to that back off and I couldn't agree to that deal. We just have to say no. And then deal. We just have to say no. And then deal. We just have to say no. And then there was a couple weeks that lapse and there was a couple weeks that lapse and there was a couple weeks that lapse and you don't know what's going to happen. you don't know what's going to happen. you don't know what's going to happen. So you So you So you >> purgatory. So you could get indicted in >> purgatory. So you could get indicted in >> purgatory. So you could get indicted in they can indict you any moment, right? they can indict you any moment, right? they can indict you any moment, right? So that's their choice. You you you So that's their choice. You you you So that's their choice. You you you already said no to that to that. There already said no to that to that. There already said no to that to that. There were like a couple periods of like that were like a couple periods of like that were like a couple periods of like that and then oh my god in those in those and then oh my god in those in those and then oh my god in those in those couple weeks you're like you're mentally couple weeks you're like you're mentally couple weeks you're like you're mentally thinking okay thinking okay thinking okay >> I can't travel anywhere. Um so I I might >> I can't travel anywhere. Um so I I might >> I can't travel anywhere. Um so I I might have to get used to this life of just have to get used to this life of just have to get used to this life of just living in one country and be very living in one country and be very living in one country and be very careful etc. there might be some sealed careful etc. there might be some sealed careful etc. there might be some sealed indictment that that's not public the at indictment that that's not public the at indictment that that's not public the at any border that you cross and u any border that you cross and u any border that you cross and u interestingly they come back after two interestingly they come back after two interestingly they come back after two weeks and they say okay we can negotiate weeks and they say okay we can negotiate weeks and they say okay we can negotiate again and then you're like what do you again and then you're like what do you again and then you're like what do you think is happening over there think is happening over there think is happening over there >> well no I think that's a now looking >> well no I think that's a now looking >> well no I think that's a now looking back that's a very that's a very useful back that's a very that's a very useful back that's a very that's a very useful negotiation tactic for me or for anybody negotiation tactic for me or for anybody negotiation tactic for me or for anybody in my situation for in my situation for in my situation for >> the silence >> the silence >> the silence >> uh yeah the silence for anybody who's >> uh yeah the silence for anybody who's >> uh yeah the silence for anybody who's going through this on the receiving end going through this on the receiving end going through this on the receiving end you only go through this once you're not you only go through this once you're not you only go through this once you're not experienced this is your life I mean experienced this is your life I mean experienced this is your life I mean there could be a red sealed red notice there could be a red sealed red notice there could be a red sealed red notice against you um and this is the life they against you um and this is the life they against you um and this is the life they have to deal with going forever and they have to deal with going forever and they have to deal with going forever and they don't like this thing these things can don't like this thing these things can don't like this thing these things can stay there for like decades for them stay there for like decades for them stay there for like decades for them they do this every day this is like this they do this every day this is like this they do this every day this is like this is their daily job right so and but they is their daily job right so and but they is their daily job right so and but they I think they're smart enough that they I think they're smart enough that they I think they're smart enough that they know two weeks is about the optimum time know two weeks is about the optimum time know two weeks is about the optimum time because longer than that you really get because longer than that you really get because longer than that you really get used to it and when they come back to used to it and when they come back to used to it and when they come back to negotiate you're going to say no right negotiate you're going to say no right negotiate you're going to say no right it's like look I'm already used to this it's like look I'm already used to this it's like look I'm already used to this >> right so like if you leave the guy in >> right so like if you leave the guy in >> right so like if you leave the guy in the situation for too long the situation for too long the situation for too long >> interesting interesting >> interesting interesting >> interesting interesting >> so so they're very skilled in this type >> so so they're very skilled in this type >> so so they're very skilled in this type of uh mental uh uh uh work, of uh mental uh uh uh work, of uh mental uh uh uh work, >> right? Whereas Yeah. So, there were some >> right? Whereas Yeah. So, there were some >> right? Whereas Yeah. So, there were some really tough periods and for this type really tough periods and for this type really tough periods and for this type of stuff, you don't get used to it. Um of stuff, you don't get used to it. Um of stuff, you don't get used to it. Um you it's it's mentally challenging. How you it's it's mentally challenging. How you it's it's mentally challenging. How did you get yourself to a place to agree did you get yourself to a place to agree did you get yourself to a place to agree to the final terms? to the final terms? to the final terms? >> After a lot of negotiations, we're like, >> After a lot of negotiations, we're like, >> After a lot of negotiations, we're like, okay, um basically said, okay, I okay, um basically said, okay, I okay, um basically said, okay, I validated a single uh single charge of a validated a single uh single charge of a validated a single uh single charge of a banking secrecy violation, which is a banking secrecy violation, which is a banking secrecy violation, which is a registration failure, which is a federal registration failure, which is a federal registration failure, which is a federal crime. It's it's serious. Uh but no one crime. It's it's serious. Uh but no one crime. It's it's serious. Uh but no one went to jail for this in history. Um and went to jail for this in history. Um and went to jail for this in history. Um and um there's no there's no uh um there's no there's no uh um there's no there's no uh >> sorry that charge that's more technical. >> sorry that charge that's more technical. >> sorry that charge that's more technical. How does that relate to the perception How does that relate to the perception How does that relate to the perception of what was in the media at least in of what was in the media at least in of what was in the media at least in America which is money laundering and America which is money laundering and America which is money laundering and aiding at abetting folks and not doing aiding at abetting folks and not doing aiding at abetting folks and not doing KYC and not doing AML versus the actual KYC and not doing AML versus the actual KYC and not doing AML versus the actual charge. Are those two things connected charge. Are those two things connected charge. Are those two things connected and they're equal or these are sort of and they're equal or these are sort of and they're equal or these are sort of disjoint disjoint disjoint >> perception versus the actual specifics? >> perception versus the actual specifics? >> perception versus the actual specifics? >> Sure. I can try to explain my >> Sure. I can try to explain my >> Sure. I can try to explain my understanding. I'm not a lawyer. So I understanding. I'm not a lawyer. So I understanding. I'm not a lawyer. So I want to make a small disclaimer here. Um want to make a small disclaimer here. Um want to make a small disclaimer here. Um this is my layman understanding could be this is my layman understanding could be this is my layman understanding could be wrong. wrong. wrong. >> Uh there's a first my understanding >> Uh there's a first my understanding >> Uh there's a first my understanding there's a first level is like banking there's a first level is like banking there's a first level is like banking secrecy act violation which is a failure secrecy act violation which is a failure secrecy act violation which is a failure to register. Basically you serviced we to register. Basically you serviced we to register. Basically you serviced we service US users without register as a service US users without register as a service US users without register as a financial services company in the US. financial services company in the US. financial services company in the US. >> So that's a you thing that has nothing >> So that's a you thing that has nothing >> So that's a you thing that has nothing to do with the user themselves doing to do with the user themselves doing to do with the user themselves doing anything nefarious or bad. anything nefarious or bad. anything nefarious or bad. >> No, you did not register with the proper >> No, you did not register with the proper >> No, you did not register with the proper authorities to say I'm going to take on authorities to say I'm going to take on authorities to say I'm going to take on US customs. US customs. US customs. >> And so that's number one, right? So that >> And so that's number one, right? So that >> And so that's number one, right? So that that that's the bait that's the kind of that that's the bait that's the kind of that that's the bait that's the kind of bait layer. Okay. On top of that you can bait layer. Okay. On top of that you can bait layer. Okay. On top of that you can say look you didn't have adequate KYC say look you didn't have adequate KYC say look you didn't have adequate KYC AML procedures. So your all your AML procedures. So your all your AML procedures. So your all your procedures are not strong enough. Um so procedures are not strong enough. Um so procedures are not strong enough. Um so uh uh so that's another that's another uh uh so that's another that's another uh uh so that's another that's another level which even even if you're not level which even even if you're not level which even even if you're not registered you're also supposed to have registered you're also supposed to have registered you're also supposed to have good KYC etc. AML procedures. Um and good KYC etc. AML procedures. Um and good KYC etc. AML procedures. Um and those things are not and those things those things are not and those things those things are not and those things people think that's a black and white people think that's a black and white people think that's a black and white thing. In reality it's not. Uh it's how thing. In reality it's not. Uh it's how thing. In reality it's not. Uh it's how well you do it. Uh which systems do you well you do it. Uh which systems do you well you do it. Uh which systems do you use? what how do you do this? use? what how do you do this? use? what how do you do this? >> How many people do you have? What's your >> How many people do you have? What's your >> How many people do you have? What's your standard operating procedures? Yeah. standard operating procedures? Yeah. standard operating procedures? Yeah. >> Yeah. So there's actually a lot of >> Yeah. So there's actually a lot of >> Yeah. So there's actually a lot of details and then like uh quite a bit details and then like uh quite a bit details and then like uh quite a bit above that in my understanding is if you above that in my understanding is if you above that in my understanding is if you have somehow known and facilitated uh have somehow known and facilitated uh have somehow known and facilitated uh bad transactions. So you can have a weak bad transactions. So you can have a weak bad transactions. So you can have a weak AL pro AML program and that didn't catch AL pro AML program and that didn't catch AL pro AML program and that didn't catch all the bad players but you you don't all the bad players but you you don't all the bad players but you you don't know that. know that. know that. >> Right. So it's not like you're >> Right. So it's not like you're >> Right. So it's not like you're intentionally facilitating that. intentionally facilitating that. intentionally facilitating that. >> It's not robust. >> It's not robust. >> It's not robust. >> It's not robust. >> It's not robust. >> It's not robust. >> It's relatively naive but it's there. >> It's relatively naive but it's there. >> It's relatively naive but it's there. >> Yeah. versus this is I know this to be >> Yeah. versus this is I know this to be >> Yeah. versus this is I know this to be bad and I'm enabling it to happen bad and I'm enabling it to happen bad and I'm enabling it to happen regardless. regardless. regardless. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> And there's the next level which you >> And there's the next level which you >> And there's the next level which you personally handling the transactions. personally handling the transactions. personally handling the transactions. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. So which is you know uh you know >> Right. So which is you know uh you know >> Right. So which is you know uh you know Charlie Charlie Shramm handled uh Charlie Charlie Shramm handled uh Charlie Charlie Shramm handled uh transactions for Silk Road for for Ross. transactions for Silk Road for for Ross. transactions for Silk Road for for Ross. Right. So that's how you know so there's Right. So that's how you know so there's Right. So that's how you know so there's different levels. I don't handle any different levels. I don't handle any different levels. I don't handle any transactions at all my myself. That's transactions at all my myself. That's transactions at all my myself. That's just not my thing. I just don't do it. just not my thing. I just don't do it. just not my thing. I just don't do it. And so they said okay Binance number one And so they said okay Binance number one And so they said okay Binance number one we didn't register KYC ML is weak. Uh so we didn't register KYC ML is weak. Uh so we didn't register KYC ML is weak. Uh so that those are things we can fine we can that those are things we can fine we can that those are things we can fine we can agree on that agree on that agree on that >> layer one layer two. >> layer one layer two. >> layer one layer two. >> Yeah. So we can agree on that for those >> Yeah. So we can agree on that for those >> Yeah. So we can agree on that for those single charges without any other single charges without any other single charges without any other additional stuff. No one ever went to additional stuff. No one ever went to additional stuff. No one ever went to jail in US history even till today. jail in US history even till today. jail in US history even till today. Right. So u uh and then the government Right. So u uh and then the government Right. So u uh and then the government uh we couldn't agree on the two addition uh we couldn't agree on the two addition uh we couldn't agree on the two addition the government want to add two the government want to add two the government want to add two additional charges they call additional charges they call additional charges they call enhancements the three and four. The enhancements the three and four. The enhancements the three and four. The three and four they said somehow I three and four they said somehow I three and four they said somehow I personally facilitated but they couldn't personally facilitated but they couldn't personally facilitated but they couldn't provide any evidence. They were trying provide any evidence. They were trying provide any evidence. They were trying to lean on the company somehow something to lean on the company somehow something to lean on the company somehow something happened in the company you know etc. happened in the company you know etc. happened in the company you know etc. they were trying to use. Were they able they were trying to use. Were they able they were trying to use. Were they able to point to a transaction or some to point to a transaction or some to point to a transaction or some >> No, they wasn't. So this two >> No, they wasn't. So this two >> No, they wasn't. So this two enhancements the court outright rejected enhancements the court outright rejected enhancements the court outright rejected but we decided to we before I went to but we decided to we before I went to but we decided to we before I went to the US we said we agreed that we will the US we said we agreed that we will the US we said we agreed that we will argue that in court right um and also argue that in court right um and also argue that in court right um and also based on I don't want to get into the based on I don't want to get into the based on I don't want to get into the sort of privileged conversations but sort of privileged conversations but sort of privileged conversations but like the understanding I went before I like the understanding I went before I like the understanding I went before I went was no one went to jail the worst went was no one went to jail the worst went was no one went to jail the worst uh guy who got punished was author Hayes uh guy who got punished was author Hayes uh guy who got punished was author Hayes of Bitmax he got six months of home of Bitmax he got six months of home of Bitmax he got six months of home confinement uh for run for for Bitmax confinement uh for run for for Bitmax confinement uh for run for for Bitmax and uh when I look at that case he had and uh when I look at that case he had and uh when I look at that case he had much more direct interactions with much more direct interactions with much more direct interactions with clients clients clients whereas I had much less direction. I whereas I had much less direction. I whereas I had much less direction. I basically I don't deal with clients at basically I don't deal with clients at basically I don't deal with clients at Binance. I deal with users on Twitter Binance. I deal with users on Twitter Binance. I deal with users on Twitter but not like you know the Bance back end but not like you know the Bance back end but not like you know the Bance back end kind of thing. kind of thing. kind of thing. >> So I felt pretty confident that you know >> So I felt pretty confident that you know >> So I felt pretty confident that you know we should be in a fairly strong position we should be in a fairly strong position we should be in a fairly strong position and that's the best thing forward. and that's the best thing forward. and that's the best thing forward. >> Right. So you're like we agree with >> Right. So you're like we agree with >> Right. So you're like we agree with this. We agree with this. We're going to this. We agree with this. We're going to this. We agree with this. We're going to really debate this in court. Layers really debate this in court. Layers really debate this in court. Layers three and four. I'm going to come to the three and four. I'm going to come to the three and four. I'm going to come to the US. US. US. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to hash it out in court. >> And we're going to hash it out in court. >> And we're going to hash it out in court. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So you land in America. >> So you land in America. >> So you land in America. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You go into the courtroom. you start >> You go into the courtroom. you start >> You go into the courtroom. you start this process, what happens? this process, what happens? this process, what happens? >> So yeah, there was quite a lot of >> So yeah, there was quite a lot of >> So yeah, there was quite a lot of details there. Uh details there. Uh details there. Uh first of all, the first like the first first of all, the first like the first first of all, the first like the first day you go you go and plea, right? So day you go you go and plea, right? So day you go you go and plea, right? So the plea the agreement has already like the plea the agreement has already like the plea the agreement has already like debated debated debated >> by the way. Sorry. And where you're >> by the way. Sorry. And where you're >> by the way. Sorry. And where you're staying in a hotel? staying in a hotel? staying in a hotel? >> I was staying in a hotel. Yeah, I was >> I was staying in a hotel. Yeah, I was >> I was staying in a hotel. Yeah, I was staying in a hotel in downtown Seattle. staying in a hotel in downtown Seattle. staying in a hotel in downtown Seattle. Um Um Um >> is your family with you or No, >> is your family with you or No, >> is your family with you or No, >> my family went to join to to Well, not >> my family went to join to to Well, not >> my family went to join to to Well, not my not my not my not my kids. Um but my my not my not my not my kids. Um but my my not my not my not my kids. Um but my sister and my mom went to join me. Um I sister and my mom went to join me. Um I sister and my mom went to join me. Um I didn't want my kids to go um they have didn't want my kids to go um they have didn't want my kids to go um they have school and and then my partner has a school and and then my partner has a school and and then my partner has a business to run. Um I was already like business to run. Um I was already like business to run. Um I was already like no no longer running the business. no no longer running the business. no no longer running the business. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I didn't want to drag her away from >> So I didn't want to drag her away from >> So I didn't want to drag her away from from from from that. from from from that. from from from that. >> So um >> So um >> So um >> yeah so my sister my my my my mom and my >> yeah so my sister my my my my mom and my >> yeah so my sister my my my my mom and my older kids with with me older kids with with me older kids with with me >> and then um uh yeah so that's and then I >> and then um uh yeah so that's and then I >> and then um uh yeah so that's and then I was stay in a hotel um and then the next was stay in a hotel um and then the next was stay in a hotel um and then the next morning go going to court. Going to morning go going to court. Going to morning go going to court. Going to court the first part of the process is court the first part of the process is court the first part of the process is the plea right. The judge asks you, "Do the plea right. The judge asks you, "Do the plea right. The judge asks you, "Do you understand this paragraph, this you understand this paragraph, this you understand this paragraph, this paragraph, this paragraph?" Just say, paragraph, this paragraph?" Just say, paragraph, this paragraph?" Just say, "Yes, yes, yes." the the paragraphs were "Yes, yes, yes." the the paragraphs were "Yes, yes, yes." the the paragraphs were already like negotiated like out of the already like negotiated like out of the already like negotiated like out of the wazoo by the multiple so many lawyers wazoo by the multiple so many lawyers wazoo by the multiple so many lawyers >> over lawyered >> over lawyered >> over lawyered >> over lawyered and you the um so so you >> over lawyered and you the um so so you >> over lawyered and you the um so so you know and then you then the lawyers know and then you then the lawyers know and then you then the lawyers debate about you know the the uh they debate about you know the the uh they debate about you know the the uh they didn't the first case when I after the didn't the first case when I after the didn't the first case when I after the plea they didn't debate about the charge plea they didn't debate about the charge plea they didn't debate about the charge they debate about my bail my bail they debate about my bail my bail they debate about my bail my bail condition right so I got a post bail u condition right so I got a post bail u condition right so I got a post bail u my lawyers argued I should be allowed to my lawyers argued I should be allowed to my lawyers argued I should be allowed to go back to UAE waiting for the sentence go back to UAE waiting for the sentence go back to UAE waiting for the sentence three months Later the government argued three months Later the government argued three months Later the government argued that um uh I may not come back. So they that um uh I may not come back. So they that um uh I may not come back. So they want me to stay in the US and they said want me to stay in the US and they said want me to stay in the US and they said they will not restrict me in my movement they will not restrict me in my movement they will not restrict me in my movement in the US because I don't I don't I in the US because I don't I don't I in the US because I don't I don't I don't I I don't possess any harm to the don't I I don't possess any harm to the don't I I don't possess any harm to the community. They argue about that the the community. They argue about that the the community. They argue about that the the the magistrate judge the first judge the magistrate judge the first judge the magistrate judge the first judge approved me leaving the US to go back to approved me leaving the US to go back to approved me leaving the US to go back to the UAE for 3 months which would which the UAE for 3 months which would which the UAE for 3 months which would which would have been great. And then the the would have been great. And then the the would have been great. And then the the the government appealed that uh my the government appealed that uh my the government appealed that uh my lawyer says like in his 40 years he lawyer says like in his 40 years he lawyer says like in his 40 years he never seen a appeal on a bail condition. never seen a appeal on a bail condition. never seen a appeal on a bail condition. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And then he said well this guy is a ton >> And then he said well this guy is a ton >> And then he said well this guy is a ton death uh because they will this will death uh because they will this will death uh because they will this will piss off the courts which will actually piss off the courts which will actually piss off the courts which will actually be my favor. And guess what two weeks be my favor. And guess what two weeks be my favor. And guess what two weeks later the court ruled ruding in the later the court ruled ruding in the later the court ruled ruding in the government's favor and I was kept in the government's favor and I was kept in the government's favor and I was kept in the US. So I was kept away from home uh for US. So I was kept away from home uh for US. So I was kept away from home uh for three months. When three months came three months. When three months came three months. When three months came >> that hotel >> that hotel >> that hotel >> I was free to travel in the US. I was >> I was free to travel in the US. I was >> I was free to travel in the US. I was like well I'm stuck in the US so might like well I'm stuck in the US so might like well I'm stuck in the US so might as well travel. Uh I had a sister my as well travel. Uh I had a sister my as well travel. Uh I had a sister my sister have a place in the US. So I was sister have a place in the US. So I was sister have a place in the US. So I was staying with my sister for a bit of the staying with my sister for a bit of the staying with my sister for a bit of the time and then I was traveling um just time and then I was traveling um just time and then I was traveling um just cool just to try to keep myself cool. cool just to try to keep myself cool. cool just to try to keep myself cool. Chill. All right. Um and then 3 months Chill. All right. Um and then 3 months Chill. All right. Um and then 3 months later the government requests for later the government requests for later the government requests for another 3 months extension. So now I another 3 months extension. So now I another 3 months extension. So now I have to stay in the US for another 3 have to stay in the US for another 3 have to stay in the US for another 3 months longer waiting for months longer waiting for months longer waiting for >> Now were your kids at this point coming >> Now were your kids at this point coming >> Now were your kids at this point coming to see you at least so that they could to see you at least so that they could to see you at least so that they could come see you or come see you or come see you or >> No, I I did not ask them to come and see >> No, I I did not ask them to come and see >> No, I I did not ask them to come and see me. Um me. Um me. Um >> so you didn't see them for six months? >> so you didn't see them for six months? >> so you didn't see them for six months? >> Uh yeah and well actually I didn't see >> Uh yeah and well actually I didn't see >> Uh yeah and well actually I didn't see them for that year. Yeah. For Yeah. them for that year. Yeah. For Yeah. them for that year. Yeah. For Yeah. >> Yeah. So uh and then so the government >> Yeah. So uh and then so the government >> Yeah. So uh and then so the government asked for another 3 months extension asked for another 3 months extension asked for another 3 months extension then on April 30th 2024 uh that's my then on April 30th 2024 uh that's my then on April 30th 2024 uh that's my core date and then a week before that is core date and then a week before that is core date and then a week before that is when both sides submit their their when both sides submit their their when both sides submit their their request the government request for 36 request the government request for 36 request the government request for 36 months which is twice the maximum months which is twice the maximum months which is twice the maximum sentencing guideline for the worst case sentencing guideline for the worst case sentencing guideline for the worst case scenario for me. Right. So the court scenario for me. Right. So the court scenario for me. Right. So the court said like then this court had never seen said like then this court had never seen said like then this court had never seen a government asking the court to ignore a government asking the court to ignore a government asking the court to ignore the sentencing guideline. Did you find the sentencing guideline. Did you find the sentencing guideline. Did you find that out for the first time sitting that out for the first time sitting that out for the first time sitting there in the court? there in the court? there in the court? >> No, just a week before the court because >> No, just a week before the court because >> No, just a week before the court because the government had to make the subm the government had to make the subm the government had to make the subm submission. There's a written submission submission. There's a written submission submission. There's a written submission before. before. before. >> How did you react to that? >> How did you react to that? >> How did you react to that? >> Well, not good. Right. So, uh and then >> Well, not good. Right. So, uh and then >> Well, not good. Right. So, uh and then my lawyers also the my lawyer told my lawyers also the my lawyer told my lawyers also the my lawyer told changed before they said, "Oh, you can changed before they said, "Oh, you can changed before they said, "Oh, you can probably get home." They said, "Look, probably get home." They said, "Look, probably get home." They said, "Look, the judge most likely is going to split the judge most likely is going to split the judge most likely is going to split the baby." So, if the government's the baby." So, if the government's the baby." So, if the government's asking for 36 months, you're asking for asking for 36 months, you're asking for asking for 36 months, you're asking for probation. The the government most probation. The the government most probation. The the government most likely to pick some number in between, likely to pick some number in between, likely to pick some number in between, right? So I was like, "Okay, that's not right? So I was like, "Okay, that's not right? So I was like, "Okay, that's not good." good." good." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And also 5 days before my >> Yeah. And also 5 days before my >> Yeah. And also 5 days before my sentencing, um on April 25th, sentencing, um on April 25th, sentencing, um on April 25th, Senator Elizabeth Warren went on TV to Senator Elizabeth Warren went on TV to Senator Elizabeth Warren went on TV to say to declare war on crypto again. Um say to declare war on crypto again. Um say to declare war on crypto again. Um so this is like 5 days before my so this is like 5 days before my so this is like 5 days before my sentencing. Um and he wrote an open sentencing. Um and he wrote an open sentencing. Um and he wrote an open letter. She wrote an open letter to the letter. She wrote an open letter to the letter. She wrote an open letter to the DOJ saying all this stuff. Um which is DOJ saying all this stuff. Um which is DOJ saying all this stuff. Um which is actually most of it is is is not actually most of it is is is not actually most of it is is is not correct. correct. correct. So uh yeah. So then that's and April So uh yeah. So then that's and April So uh yeah. So then that's and April 30th I got sentenced and then the judge 30th I got sentenced and then the judge 30th I got sentenced and then the judge the judge said a bunch of good really the judge said a bunch of good really the judge said a bunch of good really good things about me. Uh I have all the good things about me. Uh I have all the good things about me. Uh I have all the excerpts in the book but then at some excerpts in the book but then at some excerpts in the book but then at some point the judge says but and then you point the judge says but and then you point the judge says but and then you like okay that's not good. like okay that's not good. like okay that's not good. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And then I got forward >> Yeah. And then I got forward >> Yeah. And then I got forward >> that's how they start the sentencing. >> that's how they start the sentencing. >> that's how they start the sentencing. They're like he's telling you all the They're like he's telling you all the They're like he's telling you all the good things and then he gets to the butt good things and then he gets to the butt good things and then he gets to the butt and you're like oh my god. and you're like oh my god. and you're like oh my god. >> Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. >> Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. >> Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So uh the the lawyer still debate >> Yeah. So uh the the lawyer still debate >> Yeah. So uh the the lawyer still debate the sentencing on the April 3rd is the the sentencing on the April 3rd is the the sentencing on the April 3rd is the lawyers debating court about no this ar lawyers debating court about no this ar lawyers debating court about no this ar that's when the two hazmats got rejected that's when the two hazmats got rejected that's when the two hazmats got rejected u by the court like my lawyers argue u by the court like my lawyers argue u by the court like my lawyers argue like no this and that uh this I never like no this and that uh this I never like no this and that uh this I never touched any of transactions I'm not touched any of transactions I'm not touched any of transactions I'm not aware this things just aware this things just aware this things just >> layers three and four of the accusations >> layers three and four of the accusations >> layers three and four of the accusations got thrown out. got thrown out. got thrown out. >> Yeah. So um and then uh they argue about >> Yeah. So um and then uh they argue about >> Yeah. So um and then uh they argue about you know what's what what should what you know what's what what should what you know what's what what should what should what the recommended uh should what the recommended uh should what the recommended uh sentencing should be. My lawyers of sentencing should be. My lawyers of sentencing should be. My lawyers of course argued for either uh home uh course argued for either uh home uh course argued for either uh home uh probation uh or home confinement at the probation uh or home confinement at the probation uh or home confinement at the worst case, right? Um and then the worst case, right? Um and then the worst case, right? Um and then the government argued like this guy's really government argued like this guy's really government argued like this guy's really bad guy, you know, this case is really bad guy, you know, this case is really bad guy, you know, this case is really big. Um and we should punish him really big. Um and we should punish him really big. Um and we should punish him really really hard with double the punishment really hard with double the punishment really hard with double the punishment of any legally recommended punishment. of any legally recommended punishment. of any legally recommended punishment. Uh 36 months. Um so the judge landed at Uh 36 months. Um so the judge landed at Uh 36 months. Um so the judge landed at four. four. four. >> How did you deal with that? >> How did you deal with that? >> How did you deal with that? >> It was difficult at at the beginning, >> It was difficult at at the beginning, >> It was difficult at at the beginning, right? Um it wasn't a full month. It was right? Um it wasn't a full month. It was right? Um it wasn't a full month. It was am I going to be safe? am I going to be safe? am I going to be safe? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So if if if like if you tell me >> Right. So if if if like if you tell me >> Right. So if if if like if you tell me like I'm going to go to this place for 4 like I'm going to go to this place for 4 like I'm going to go to this place for 4 months. Am I I'm guaranteed to be safe? months. Am I I'm guaranteed to be safe? months. Am I I'm guaranteed to be safe? I'll be okay. I be like, "Okay, fine. I I'll be okay. I be like, "Okay, fine. I I'll be okay. I be like, "Okay, fine. I I just deal with it." But the uncertain I just deal with it." But the uncertain I just deal with it." But the uncertain part is like uh also right after the part is like uh also right after the part is like uh also right after the sentencing, uh um a bunch of the big sentencing, uh um a bunch of the big sentencing, uh um a bunch of the big media wrote that I'm going to be the media wrote that I'm going to be the media wrote that I'm going to be the richest person to ever go to US prison. richest person to ever go to US prison. richest person to ever go to US prison. Uh and or and then my lawyers plus Uh and or and then my lawyers plus Uh and or and then my lawyers plus prison consultants they say well given prison consultants they say well given prison consultants they say well given all the all this coverage all the all this coverage all the all this coverage >> what is a prison consultant >> what is a prison consultant >> what is a prison consultant >> that's a whole industry of some guy who >> that's a whole industry of some guy who >> that's a whole industry of some guy who advise you what prison is like and give advise you what prison is like and give advise you what prison is like and give you advice and stuff like that how to you advice and stuff like that how to you advice and stuff like that how to live how to yeah so that's a whole big live how to yeah so that's a whole big live how to yeah so that's a whole big industry that's growing because of the industry that's growing because of the industry that's growing because of the prison population is growing in the US prison population is growing in the US prison population is growing in the US so anyway so the prison consultants like so anyway so the prison consultants like so anyway so the prison consultants like given the highprofile coverage you are a given the highprofile coverage you are a given the highprofile coverage you are a prime you're the probably the biggest prime you're the probably the biggest prime you're the probably the biggest target for potential extortion target for potential extortion target for potential extortion in in in prison. So your safety is going in in in prison. So your safety is going in in in prison. So your safety is going to be a issue. So that's the thing I was to be a issue. So that's the thing I was to be a issue. So that's the thing I was worried about then. I was like uh so how worried about then. I was like uh so how worried about then. I was like uh so how how do I deal like you know you go in how do I deal like you know you go in how do I deal like you know you go in and they you don't have anything, right? and they you don't have anything, right? and they you don't have anything, right? Um how how do you how do I make sure Um how how do you how do I make sure Um how how do you how do I make sure that I stay safe? Um uh that's like the that I stay safe? Um uh that's like the that I stay safe? Um uh that's like the the top consideration, right? So you the top consideration, right? So you the top consideration, right? So you you're really thinking about how do you you're really thinking about how do you you're really thinking about how do you do that? So well you know um you talk to do that? So well you know um you talk to do that? So well you know um you talk to a lot of people who prison consultants a lot of people who prison consultants a lot of people who prison consultants are usually like um exgards ex wardens. are usually like um exgards ex wardens. are usually like um exgards ex wardens. There's another group of guys who people There's another group of guys who people There's another group of guys who people who have been to but those guys are in who have been to but those guys are in who have been to but those guys are in prison but they working there. They're prison but they working there. They're prison but they working there. They're not they're not inmates. There's another not they're not inmates. There's another not they're not inmates. There's another group of guys who've been into prison group of guys who've been into prison group of guys who've been into prison prison like know they they were there prison like know they they were there prison like know they they were there for like as a inmate. So you talk to a for like as a inmate. So you talk to a for like as a inmate. So you talk to a lot of those guys. Um and then uh you lot of those guys. Um and then uh you lot of those guys. Um and then uh you figure out what prison is like. Do you figure out what prison is like. Do you figure out what prison is like. Do you make friends? Do you not make friends? make friends? Do you not make friends? make friends? Do you not make friends? you get advice on like know if somebody you get advice on like know if somebody you get advice on like know if somebody comes up on to you on the first day and comes up on to you on the first day and comes up on to you on the first day and they're really really friendly don't they're really really friendly don't they're really really friendly don't take anything from them because know take anything from them because know take anything from them because know they will ask for 10 times more favor they will ask for 10 times more favor they will ask for 10 times more favor back later on if you don't then they back later on if you don't then they back later on if you don't then they stab you and stuff like that so um I got stab you and stuff like that so um I got stab you and stuff like that so um I got a lot of different advice but at the end a lot of different advice but at the end a lot of different advice but at the end of the day you just got to go and face of the day you just got to go and face of the day you just got to go and face it right so um um I learned what I it right so um um I learned what I it right so um um I learned what I learned is actually the US prison system learned is actually the US prison system learned is actually the US prison system so vast 2 million people stay in US so vast 2 million people stay in US so vast 2 million people stay in US prison the US government spends perm prison the US government spends perm prison the US government spends perm more on prison than the on education on more on prison than the on education on more on prison than the on education on schools right so That's know how much uh schools right so That's know how much uh schools right so That's know how much uh how big the US prison population is. And how big the US prison population is. And how big the US prison population is. And uh because and there's 50 states and uh because and there's 50 states and uh because and there's 50 states and everyone every state has a different everyone every state has a different everyone every state has a different system. Uh the state prisons, there's system. Uh the state prisons, there's system. Uh the state prisons, there's federal prisons and each one is like a federal prisons and each one is like a federal prisons and each one is like a mini city. They each like the prison I mini city. They each like the prison I mini city. They each like the prison I went in has um has 2200 inmates. It's went in has um has 2200 inmates. It's went in has um has 2200 inmates. It's like a small city. Um and they each have like a small city. Um and they each have like a small city. Um and they each have their own rules, etc. So I got some their own rules, etc. So I got some their own rules, etc. So I got some advice um but many of those advice are advice um but many of those advice are advice um but many of those advice are not really useful. But when you go in, not really useful. But when you go in, not really useful. But when you go in, you just got to deal with it. Yeah. you just got to deal with it. Yeah. you just got to deal with it. Yeah. >> So, you get sentenced on April 30th, you >> So, you get sentenced on April 30th, you >> So, you get sentenced on April 30th, you said. said. said. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when do you start? >> And when do you start? >> And when do you start? >> So, when you get sentenced, you don't >> So, when you get sentenced, you don't >> So, when you get sentenced, you don't know where we don't know which prison know where we don't know which prison know where we don't know which prison you're going to. The court makes two you're going to. The court makes two you're going to. The court makes two recommendations. Um, and then um uh recommendations. Um, and then um uh recommendations. Um, and then um uh usually you will receive a letter in usually you will receive a letter in usually you will receive a letter in >> but you're you can be in the hotel or >> but you're you can be in the hotel or >> but you're you can be in the hotel or doing whatever and then you have to doing whatever and then you have to doing whatever and then you have to check in basically on some date like you check in basically on some date like you check in basically on some date like you have to go. So, in my case, the judge have to go. So, in my case, the judge have to go. So, in my case, the judge ruled that I don't need supervision ruled that I don't need supervision ruled that I don't need supervision which is very unique. Um then I don't which is very unique. Um then I don't which is very unique. Um then I don't have to check in. So I just have to sit have to check in. So I just have to sit have to check in. So I just have to sit uh I just have to wait for a letter uh uh I just have to wait for a letter uh uh I just have to wait for a letter uh that comes to my sister's place which is that comes to my sister's place which is that comes to my sister's place which is a address I I register with a court. In a address I I register with a court. In a address I I register with a court. In fact the the the government the DOJ in fact the the the government the DOJ in fact the the the government the DOJ in their request they asked me to be uh their request they asked me to be uh their request they asked me to be uh pre-manded uh meaning I'll be taken away pre-manded uh meaning I'll be taken away pre-manded uh meaning I'll be taken away with in hungcuffs. with in hungcuffs. with in hungcuffs. >> Uh I think they really wanted that photo >> Uh I think they really wanted that photo >> Uh I think they really wanted that photo for PR reasons but the judge said look for PR reasons but the judge said look for PR reasons but the judge said look he's not a risk. He's not a flight risk. he's not a risk. He's not a flight risk. he's not a risk. He's not a flight risk. He's not a risk to society. I'm not He's not a risk to society. I'm not He's not a risk to society. I'm not going to do I'm not I'm not going to do going to do I'm not I'm not going to do going to do I'm not I'm not going to do that. In fact, the judge added one that. In fact, the judge added one that. In fact, the judge added one sentence that said, uh, he doesn't he sentence that said, uh, he doesn't he sentence that said, uh, he doesn't he does not need supervision, which is does not need supervision, which is does not need supervision, which is actually a very interesting legal clause actually a very interesting legal clause actually a very interesting legal clause I learned later. So, this is why when I I learned later. So, this is why when I I learned later. So, this is why when I finish my sentence, I don't have finish my sentence, I don't have finish my sentence, I don't have probation. I there's no parole. I don't probation. I there's no parole. I don't probation. I there's no parole. I don't I don't need supervision. I don't need supervision. I don't need supervision. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> So, um, uh, so there's some really >> So, um, uh, so there's some really >> So, um, uh, so there's some really interesting stuff. Well, interesting interesting stuff. Well, interesting interesting stuff. Well, interesting stuff that you learned. stuff that you learned. stuff that you learned. >> How was that period for you? >> How was that period for you? >> How was that period for you? >> Did anything bad happen or was it >> Did anything bad happen or was it >> Did anything bad happen or was it >> Luckily, nothing too bad happened. Uh, >> Luckily, nothing too bad happened. Uh, >> Luckily, nothing too bad happened. Uh, it's not it's a really bad experience it's not it's a really bad experience it's not it's a really bad experience overall, but nothing like no physical overall, but nothing like no physical overall, but nothing like no physical harm. uh there's no fights uh there's no harm. uh there's no fights uh there's no harm. uh there's no fights uh there's no um there's no real extortion what I um there's no real extortion what I um there's no real extortion what I found like so my prison consultants tell found like so my prison consultants tell found like so my prison consultants tell me like know when you go in don't join me like know when you go in don't join me like know when you go in don't join any gang stay to yourself uh uh just you any gang stay to yourself uh uh just you any gang stay to yourself uh uh just you know just just stay to yourself uh be know just just stay to yourself uh be know just just stay to yourself uh be quiet stay out of sight just quiet stay out of sight just quiet stay out of sight just >> the minute I walked into the prison gate >> the minute I walked into the prison gate >> the minute I walked into the prison gate the guard says well you're going to need the guard says well you're going to need the guard says well you're going to need some protection here um I I hear the some protection here um I I hear the some protection here um I I hear the Pacific Islanders are hiring so you Pacific Islanders are hiring so you Pacific Islanders are hiring so you might want to join them like that's like might want to join them like that's like might want to join them like that's like this is literally like the minute I this is literally like the minute I this is literally like the minute I walked through the gate one guard was walked through the gate one guard was walked through the gate one guard was saying this to me. saying this to me. saying this to me. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I was like, what does that mean? Right. >> I was like, what does that mean? Right. >> I was like, what does that mean? Right. Um, and then, you know, after the whole Um, and then, you know, after the whole Um, and then, you know, after the whole day, the first day was like the first day, the first day was like the first day, the first day was like the first day is pretty like they take you through day is pretty like they take you through day is pretty like they take you through so many process. You strip search. I so many process. You strip search. I so many process. You strip search. I talked on CNBC like, you know, they they talked on CNBC like, you know, they they talked on CNBC like, you know, they they strip search you and then you move to strip search you and then you move to strip search you and then you move to your unit, which is like, you know, 200 your unit, which is like, you know, 200 your unit, which is like, you know, 200 inmates there. Um, it's like three rows inmates there. Um, it's like three rows inmates there. Um, it's like three rows of cells, 20 20 cells each facing each of cells, 20 20 cells each facing each of cells, 20 20 cells each facing each other, three floors, and there's a other, three floors, and there's a other, three floors, and there's a common area in the in the bottom. Um, common area in the in the bottom. Um, common area in the in the bottom. Um, and there's like 200 macho guys looking and there's like 200 macho guys looking and there's like 200 macho guys looking at you and you know, you walk into a at you and you know, you walk into a at you and you know, you walk into a cell and then um, but what actually cell and then um, but what actually cell and then um, but what actually found out is um, they organize prisons found out is um, they organize prisons found out is um, they organize prisons by race. Uh, so by ethnicity uh, they by race. Uh, so by ethnicity uh, they by race. Uh, so by ethnicity uh, they group uh, so if you are a Chinese dude, group uh, so if you are a Chinese dude, group uh, so if you are a Chinese dude, they group you with a Chinese dudes. Um, they group you with a Chinese dudes. Um, they group you with a Chinese dudes. Um, and if you're like a white guys, they and if you're like a white guys, they and if you're like a white guys, they group you with white guys. Black dudes group you with white guys. Black dudes group you with white guys. Black dudes group with Mexicans, Spanish guys, no, group with Mexicans, Spanish guys, no, group with Mexicans, Spanish guys, no, they they put them in one group. Um, they they put them in one group. Um, they they put them in one group. Um, this actually does avoid a lot of this actually does avoid a lot of this actually does avoid a lot of conflicts. um you are more likely to get conflicts. um you are more likely to get conflicts. um you are more likely to get along uh with people of your own along uh with people of your own along uh with people of your own ethnicity in terms of culture, customs ethnicity in terms of culture, customs ethnicity in terms of culture, customs like know Arab there was one or two Arab like know Arab there was one or two Arab like know Arab there was one or two Arab uh uh guys that you know they they pray uh uh guys that you know they they pray uh uh guys that you know they they pray they know they have a different they know they have a different they know they have a different schedule. Um so uh they put you in schedule. Um so uh they put you in schedule. Um so uh they put you in groups by ethnicity and the guards groups by ethnicity and the guards groups by ethnicity and the guards actually incur the prison encourages actually incur the prison encourages actually incur the prison encourages because it reduces uh fighting. because it reduces uh fighting. because it reduces uh fighting. >> Oh wow. Um and then once you're in your >> Oh wow. Um and then once you're in your >> Oh wow. Um and then once you're in your group, uh if you have a problem with group, uh if you have a problem with group, uh if you have a problem with somebody else in somebody some other somebody else in somebody some other somebody else in somebody some other group, there's a group rep and the rep group, there's a group rep and the rep group, there's a group rep and the rep will talk about it and you know there's will talk about it and you know there's will talk about it and you know there's like a hierarchy and so u union reps like a hierarchy and so u union reps like a hierarchy and so u union reps >> kind of like a union reps. Yeah. >> kind of like a union reps. Yeah. >> kind of like a union reps. Yeah. >> And then they come together and they >> And then they come together and they >> And then they come together and they hash out. hash out. hash out. >> Yeah. They say look step stand down. We >> Yeah. They say look step stand down. We >> Yeah. They say look step stand down. We walked we walked through it. So uh so walked we walked through it. So uh so walked we walked through it. So uh so there's a system to it but I I I didn't there's a system to it but I I I didn't there's a system to it but I I I didn't know any of this right. So I walk in and know any of this right. So I walk in and know any of this right. So I walk in and then this um half ch half Asian looking then this um half ch half Asian looking then this um half ch half Asian looking dude comes to me say look u my name is dude comes to me say look u my name is dude comes to me say look u my name is Chino um welcome to our group uh he says Chino um welcome to our group uh he says Chino um welcome to our group uh he says car welcome to our car I was like what car welcome to our car I was like what car welcome to our car I was like what what should I shake his hand should I what should I shake his hand should I what should I shake his hand should I not like am I joining this gang this not like am I joining this gang this not like am I joining this gang this like it's yeah like it's yeah like it's yeah >> that's crazy >> that's crazy >> that's crazy >> yeah and this this guy is a Filipino >> yeah and this this guy is a Filipino >> yeah and this this guy is a Filipino German mix uh there's not enough Asians German mix uh there's not enough Asians German mix uh there's not enough Asians so they kind of group anything that's so they kind of group anything that's so they kind of group anything that's kind of Asian and they also group the kind of Asian and they also group the kind of Asian and they also group the Native Americans plus plus Pacific Native Americans plus plus Pacific Native Americans plus plus Pacific Islanders like how the Hawaiians into Islanders like how the Hawaiians into Islanders like how the Hawaiians into the same group. So our group only has the same group. So our group only has the same group. So our group only has six people out of this 200 people. Um six people out of this 200 people. Um six people out of this 200 people. Um and I was sent to a low security prison. and I was sent to a low security prison. and I was sent to a low security prison. I should be eligible for a minimum I should be eligible for a minimum I should be eligible for a minimum security prison which is one one level security prison which is one one level security prison which is one one level lower where most of the white collar lower where most of the white collar lower where most of the white collar crimes go. But because I'm not a US crimes go. But because I'm not a US crimes go. But because I'm not a US citizen, uh they put me into a low which citizen, uh they put me into a low which citizen, uh they put me into a low which is where all the drug laws are. So uh is where all the drug laws are. So uh is where all the drug laws are. So uh wow. wow. wow. >> Uh yeah. So that's a it's a crazy >> Uh yeah. So that's a it's a crazy >> Uh yeah. So that's a it's a crazy experience. I have quite a lot quite a experience. I have quite a lot quite a experience. I have quite a lot quite a quite a lot of details about this part quite a lot of details about this part quite a lot of details about this part in my upcoming book. What was the first in my upcoming book. What was the first in my upcoming book. What was the first thing you did when you got up? thing you did when you got up? thing you did when you got up? >> A good shower. A good meal. Um the when >> A good shower. A good meal. Um the when >> A good shower. A good meal. Um the when you first get So the shower is like you first get So the shower is like you first get So the shower is like literally like you know box this big. literally like you know box this big. literally like you know box this big. This is like a this is like a a cowboy This is like a this is like a a cowboy This is like a this is like a a cowboy uh bar door like that covers the middle uh bar door like that covers the middle uh bar door like that covers the middle part. They can see your legs and see see part. They can see your legs and see see part. They can see your legs and see see your head. Um but it's hard to take a your head. Um but it's hard to take a your head. Um but it's hard to take a shower without touching the wall. Um so shower without touching the wall. Um so shower without touching the wall. Um so the when you get out of prison the first the when you get out of prison the first the when you get out of prison the first time it's like taking a shower no you no time it's like taking a shower no you no time it's like taking a shower no you no longer need to touch the shower wall. longer need to touch the shower wall. longer need to touch the shower wall. That's like a luxury that's a luxury. That's like a luxury that's a luxury. That's like a luxury that's a luxury. And uh also um uh there's very limited And uh also um uh there's very limited And uh also um uh there's very limited fruits, uh very limited protein, like fruits, uh very limited protein, like fruits, uh very limited protein, like good like proper protein. Um there's a good like proper protein. Um there's a good like proper protein. Um there's a lot of carbs, uh a lot of like you know lot of carbs, uh a lot of like you know lot of carbs, uh a lot of like you know uh bread, uh uh uh flowers, fried stuff. uh bread, uh uh uh flowers, fried stuff. uh bread, uh uh uh flowers, fried stuff. Um very little veggies, very little Um very little veggies, very little Um very little veggies, very little protein, very little fruits. Um I protein, very little fruits. Um I protein, very little fruits. Um I haven't seen a whole fruit for like haven't seen a whole fruit for like haven't seen a whole fruit for like months. When I saw when I got out and months. When I saw when I got out and months. When I saw when I got out and saw like a plate of fruit, I was like, saw like a plate of fruit, I was like, saw like a plate of fruit, I was like, "Wow, that's that's a luxury I haven't "Wow, that's that's a luxury I haven't "Wow, that's that's a luxury I haven't seen for a few months." seen for a few months." seen for a few months." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Did you immediately just go back >> Yeah. Did you immediately just go back >> Yeah. Did you immediately just go back to the UAE? to the UAE? to the UAE? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When I left prison, it took took >> Yeah. When I left prison, it took took >> Yeah. When I left prison, it took took me about six 26 minutes from leaving the me about six 26 minutes from leaving the me about six 26 minutes from leaving the uh the the the prison door to getting on uh the the the prison door to getting on uh the the the prison door to getting on the airplane and flying out. the airplane and flying out. the airplane and flying out. >> What were you thinking? Were you saying >> What were you thinking? Were you saying >> What were you thinking? Were you saying to yourself, "I understand where they to yourself, "I understand where they to yourself, "I understand where they were coming from, and I was at least were coming from, and I was at least were coming from, and I was at least vindicated vindicated vindicated on the parts that I felt were overreach. on the parts that I felt were overreach. on the parts that I felt were overreach. I can see where they were coming from I can see where they were coming from I can see where they were coming from with these first two things." Did you with these first two things." Did you with these first two things." Did you say that to yourself or did you say say that to yourself or did you say say that to yourself or did you say this was a total railroad and this is this was a total railroad and this is this was a total railroad and this is completely unfair and how did this completely unfair and how did this completely unfair and how did this happen to me? Why did this happen to me? happen to me? Why did this happen to me? happen to me? Why did this happen to me? What were you saying to yourself? What were you saying to yourself? What were you saying to yourself? >> I have some restrictions on some on what >> I have some restrictions on some on what >> I have some restrictions on some on what I can say about the agreement, the plea, I can say about the agreement, the plea, I can say about the agreement, the plea, etc. So, um I etc. So, um I etc. So, um I >> I'm just talking emotionally. >> I'm just talking emotionally. >> I'm just talking emotionally. >> Emotionally, I just want to be I would >> Emotionally, I just want to be I would >> Emotionally, I just want to be I would just want it to be over with. Um and just want it to be over with. Um and just want it to be over with. Um and remember that when I first got out, this remember that when I first got out, this remember that when I first got out, this is still the Biden administration. The is still the Biden administration. The is still the Biden administration. The election has not happened. Um, and uh, election has not happened. Um, and uh, election has not happened. Um, and uh, uh, it wasn't clear who's going to win. uh, it wasn't clear who's going to win. uh, it wasn't clear who's going to win. It wasn't clear the U. The US policy is It wasn't clear the U. The US policy is It wasn't clear the U. The US policy is still the same. still the same. still the same. >> You went in when? >> You went in when? >> You went in when? >> I went in on May 30th, 2024, >> I went in on May 30th, 2024, >> I went in on May 30th, 2024, >> and you got out four months later. >> and you got out four months later. >> and you got out four months later. >> Uh, >> Uh, >> Uh, September 27th is the day I fully got September 27th is the day I fully got September 27th is the day I fully got out. The election was in November, out. The election was in November, out. The election was in November, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And by the way, sorry, at that point, >> And by the way, sorry, at that point, >> And by the way, sorry, at that point, you had been in America for a year. you had been in America for a year. you had been in America for a year. >> For you hadn't seen your kids in a year. >> For you hadn't seen your kids in a year. >> For you hadn't seen your kids in a year. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, at that point, like, I just >> Yeah. So, at that point, like, I just >> Yeah. So, at that point, like, I just want this whole thing to be over with. want this whole thing to be over with. want this whole thing to be over with. Um, and I thought they will continue. Um, and I thought they will continue. Um, and I thought they will continue. Well, I was thought if they if the Well, I was thought if they if the Well, I was thought if they if the policies continue, then you will still policies continue, then you will still policies continue, then you will still be anti-crypto uh policies, um we'll be anti-crypto uh policies, um we'll be anti-crypto uh policies, um we'll just whatever we'll just survive however just whatever we'll just survive however just whatever we'll just survive however we survive. Um so, um yeah, so that that we survive. Um so, um yeah, so that that we survive. Um so, um yeah, so that that was that was kind of the mentality. was that was kind of the mentality. was that was kind of the mentality. >> So, when you get back, had you come to >> So, when you get back, had you come to >> So, when you get back, had you come to terms as well with the fact that you terms as well with the fact that you terms as well with the fact that you couldn't run Binance per se and that couldn't run Binance per se and that couldn't run Binance per se and that that was part of the plea and that was part of the plea and that was part of the plea and >> uh yeah, so I'm actually okay with that. >> uh yeah, so I'm actually okay with that. >> uh yeah, so I'm actually okay with that. Uh stepping down was really really hard. Uh stepping down was really really hard. Uh stepping down was really really hard. Um I actually cried out of it and the Um I actually cried out of it and the Um I actually cried out of it and the the only other time I really cried was the only other time I really cried was the only other time I really cried was like know when my father passed away a like know when my father passed away a like know when my father passed away a few years ago. Um but after a few after few years ago. Um but after a few after few years ago. Um but after a few after coming back uh you know I was actually coming back uh you know I was actually coming back uh you know I was actually quite happy not to run Binance. I have a quite happy not to run Binance. I have a quite happy not to run Binance. I have a lot more free time. Um and then if I lot more free time. Um and then if I lot more free time. Um and then if I step down myself people say hey this step down myself people say hey this step down myself people say hey this this guy ran out of stamina but like now this guy ran out of stamina but like now this guy ran out of stamina but like now I can't run Binance. So uh so it's not I can't run Binance. So uh so it's not I can't run Binance. So uh so it's not my fault. It's not your problem. It's my fault. It's not your problem. It's my fault. It's not your problem. It's not it's not my choice. not it's not my choice. not it's not my choice. >> Right. But after after a while I was >> Right. But after after a while I was >> Right. But after after a while I was like know there there other there are like know there there other there are like know there there other there are other very useful meaningful things I other very useful meaningful things I other very useful meaningful things I can do with my life. Uh I am I think can do with my life. Uh I am I think can do with my life. Uh I am I think overall I'm in a very fortunate position overall I'm in a very fortunate position overall I'm in a very fortunate position right um I have resources um I have right um I have resources um I have right um I have resources um I have enough money to do whatever I want to do enough money to do whatever I want to do enough money to do whatever I want to do uh in terms of amling projects and uh in terms of amling projects and uh in terms of amling projects and businesses etc. Um including like know businesses etc. Um including like know businesses etc. Um including like know Google academy free education stuff like Google academy free education stuff like Google academy free education stuff like that. that. that. >> Yeah I wanted to talk about that in AI. >> Yeah I wanted to talk about that in AI. >> Yeah I wanted to talk about that in AI. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But before I do that let's just do a >> But before I do that let's just do a >> But before I do that let's just do a little bit of the final kod here. Tell little bit of the final kod here. Tell little bit of the final kod here. Tell me about the process to start getting a me about the process to start getting a me about the process to start getting a pardon and getting it and what you had pardon and getting it and what you had pardon and getting it and what you had to do and to do and to do and >> Yeah. So the so on the pardon um I don't >> Yeah. So the so on the pardon um I don't >> Yeah. So the so on the pardon um I don't think anybody knows what the pardon think anybody knows what the pardon think anybody knows what the pardon process is. process is. process is. >> It doesn't seem like there's a process. >> It doesn't seem like there's a process. >> It doesn't seem like there's a process. >> Like I don't even know what the process >> Like I don't even know what the process >> Like I don't even know what the process is. So what the process is you find a is. So what the process is you find a is. So what the process is you find a lawyer who writes you a petition who put lawyer who writes you a petition who put lawyer who writes you a petition who put all the arguments why you were you all the arguments why you were you all the arguments why you were you should be pardoned why you know you were should be pardoned why you know you were should be pardoned why you know you were over overly prosecuted etc etc right and over overly prosecuted etc etc right and over overly prosecuted etc etc right and why you're a good person. And a pardon why you're a good person. And a pardon why you're a good person. And a pardon what is it for? Is it effectively to what is it for? Is it effectively to what is it for? Is it effectively to recognize overprosecution? recognize overprosecution? recognize overprosecution? >> No. Partnership partnership er you raise >> No. Partnership partnership er you raise >> No. Partnership partnership er you raise everything you had you had before. So everything you had you had before. So everything you had you had before. So you're you're now a very normal person. you're you're now a very normal person. you're you're now a very normal person. >> But the reason to be considered for it >> But the reason to be considered for it >> But the reason to be considered for it can be anything. can be anything. can be anything. >> Can be anything. >> Can be anything. >> Can be anything. >> It's really just the discretion of the >> It's really just the discretion of the >> It's really just the discretion of the president reading the petition. president reading the petition. president reading the petition. >> I think so. Uh well based on my >> I think so. Uh well based on my >> I think so. Uh well based on my understanding based on my understanding understanding based on my understanding understanding based on my understanding is um uh the constitution grants the US is um uh the constitution grants the US is um uh the constitution grants the US government or the US president to give government or the US president to give government or the US president to give partisans and that's as about that's partisans and that's as about that's partisans and that's as about that's about as much detail as it says I think. about as much detail as it says I think. about as much detail as it says I think. >> Right. Okay. >> Right. Okay. >> Right. Okay. >> Um and then how he does it. >> Um and then how he does it. >> Um and then how he does it. >> So it's really about the social norms in >> So it's really about the social norms in >> So it's really about the social norms in that moment and then how he interprets that moment and then how he interprets that moment and then how he interprets >> I think so >> I think so >> I think so >> those social norms. >> those social norms. >> those social norms. >> Yeah. And then you know historically >> Yeah. And then you know historically >> Yeah. And then you know historically most presidents pardon on the last day. most presidents pardon on the last day. most presidents pardon on the last day. Right. Right. Right. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And then Biden I think started uh >> And then Biden I think started uh >> And then Biden I think started uh pardoning some in between and pardoning some in between and pardoning some in between and >> and he also did pre-pardons >> and he also did pre-pardons >> and he also did pre-pardons >> which is which is which is a bit new >> which is which is which is a bit new >> which is which is which is a bit new which is new and also crazy. which is new and also crazy. which is new and also crazy. >> Well it was very new. Yeah. I was >> Well it was very new. Yeah. I was >> Well it was very new. Yeah. I was largely around co for for for that but largely around co for for for that but largely around co for for for that but >> yeah that that really caught a lot of >> yeah that that really caught a lot of >> yeah that that really caught a lot of people. He he also pre-pardoned his son people. He he also pre-pardoned his son people. He he also pre-pardoned his son for some for some for some period. for some for some for some period. for some for some for some period. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Biden prayed. >> Biden prayed. >> Biden prayed. >> It wasn't just the co stuff. That's >> It wasn't just the co stuff. That's >> It wasn't just the co stuff. That's >> it wasn't just a co stuff. It was like a >> it wasn't just a co stuff. It was like a >> it wasn't just a co stuff. It was like a period where nobody where a period of period where nobody where a period of period where nobody where a period of time where nobody even talked about. time where nobody even talked about. time where nobody even talked about. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> It was like why do we need it to >> It was like why do we need it to >> It was like why do we need it to >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> But anyway, so the process I believe is >> But anyway, so the process I believe is >> But anyway, so the process I believe is there's no process. The president can do there's no process. The president can do there's no process. The president can do whatever they want and then u so you whatever they want and then u so you whatever they want and then u so you petition and you wait and then uh petition and you wait and then uh petition and you wait and then uh there's there is a pardon SAR in the there's there is a pardon SAR in the there's there is a pardon SAR in the white house. Uh I think her name is white house. Uh I think her name is white house. Uh I think her name is Alice Johnson. uh she also went to Alice Johnson. uh she also went to Alice Johnson. uh she also went to prison for many years. She wrote she she prison for many years. She wrote she she prison for many years. She wrote she she wrote a really nice book which I read um wrote a really nice book which I read um wrote a really nice book which I read um but your lawyers you know pink her say but your lawyers you know pink her say but your lawyers you know pink her say they need a status update they need a they need a status update they need a they need a status update they need a status update and there's no no and then status update and there's no no and then status update and there's no no and then suddenly it happened. So uh uh that's suddenly it happened. So uh uh that's suddenly it happened. So uh uh that's kind of my the the uh extent I know kind of my the the uh extent I know kind of my the the uh extent I know about the pardon process. I don't think about the pardon process. I don't think about the pardon process. I don't think anybody know I don't think that's a anybody know I don't think that's a anybody know I don't think that's a fixed process. I don't think anybody fixed process. I don't think anybody fixed process. I don't think anybody knows what that is. knows what that is. knows what that is. >> The question that some people can kind >> The question that some people can kind >> The question that some people can kind of jump to is they think what must CZ of jump to is they think what must CZ of jump to is they think what must CZ have done to try to get it. Do you want have done to try to get it. Do you want have done to try to get it. Do you want to put that to bed? to put that to bed? to put that to bed? >> Well, I didn't do much. I didn't do >> Well, I didn't do much. I didn't do >> Well, I didn't do much. I didn't do anything. And then but I think look, um, anything. And then but I think look, um, anything. And then but I think look, um, without the apartment, it's quite hard without the apartment, it's quite hard without the apartment, it's quite hard for Binance to enter the US in a in a for Binance to enter the US in a in a for Binance to enter the US in a in a proper way. I think if you proper way. I think if you proper way. I think if you >> because you're the Ubo. >> because you're the Ubo. >> because you're the Ubo. >> I'm the UB. Yeah. So, uh, and B I'm the >> I'm the UB. Yeah. So, uh, and B I'm the >> I'm the UB. Yeah. So, uh, and B I'm the UBO of Binance and Binance US, right? UBO of Binance and Binance US, right? UBO of Binance and Binance US, right? >> Without a partner, Binance, Binance is >> Without a partner, Binance, Binance is >> Without a partner, Binance, Binance is severely limited to do stuff in the US, severely limited to do stuff in the US, severely limited to do stuff in the US, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Uh, if US wants to become the capital of >> Uh, if US wants to become the capital of >> Uh, if US wants to become the capital of crypto in the world, you cannot have not crypto in the world, you cannot have not crypto in the world, you cannot have not you cannot not have the largest player. you cannot not have the largest player. you cannot not have the largest player. you cannot not you cannot have US people you cannot not you cannot have US people you cannot not you cannot have US people not be able to access the largest not be able to access the largest not be able to access the largest liquidity pool. liquidity pool. liquidity pool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh in crypto and also we're the we're >> Uh in crypto and also we're the we're >> Uh in crypto and also we're the we're also one of the largest crypto also one of the largest crypto also one of the largest crypto ecosystems. Uh so I think uh my guess ecosystems. Uh so I think uh my guess ecosystems. Uh so I think uh my guess would be that look the president is a would be that look the president is a would be that look the president is a pro crypto president. Um you obviously pro crypto president. Um you obviously pro crypto president. Um you obviously um um um >> he's had his own issues like the >> he's had his own issues like the >> he's had his own issues like the debanking. Exactly. Where he's felt what debanking. Exactly. Where he's felt what debanking. Exactly. Where he's felt what it feels like to be targeted. it feels like to be targeted. it feels like to be targeted. >> Not only debanking he got 34 criminal >> Not only debanking he got 34 criminal >> Not only debanking he got 34 criminal charges. charges. charges. >> Yeah. Right. And he got like one of the >> Yeah. Right. And he got like one of the >> Yeah. Right. And he got like one of the I don't know all the other charges but I don't know all the other charges but I don't know all the other charges but >> that as well. >> that as well. >> that as well. >> When I was in prison I saw on the prison >> When I was in prison I saw on the prison >> When I was in prison I saw on the prison TV that he got 34 criminal charges like TV that he got 34 criminal charges like TV that he got 34 criminal charges like and [clears throat] one of the charges and [clears throat] one of the charges and [clears throat] one of the charges was he brought some document to his was he brought some document to his was he brought some document to his bathroom to read. bathroom to read. bathroom to read. >> That's like that's crazy, >> That's like that's crazy, >> That's like that's crazy, >> right? So I think the fact that he went >> right? So I think the fact that he went >> right? So I think the fact that he went through that do the Biden DOJ will through that do the Biden DOJ will through that do the Biden DOJ will probably help me a lot to get the pardon probably help me a lot to get the pardon probably help me a lot to get the pardon because he will sympathize. He he knows because he will sympathize. He he knows because he will sympathize. He he knows how aggressive that DOJ was, right? So how aggressive that DOJ was, right? So how aggressive that DOJ was, right? So um that's that probably helped me in um that's that probably helped me in um that's that probably helped me in some way. some way. some way. >> So how do you spend your time now? >> So how do you spend your time now? >> So how do you spend your time now? >> I'm still getting pretty busy now. So I >> I'm still getting pretty busy now. So I >> I'm still getting pretty busy now. So I do giggle academy um you know this free do giggle academy um you know this free do giggle academy um you know this free education platform. I consult with many education platform. I consult with many education platform. I consult with many governments on uh to help them to governments on uh to help them to governments on uh to help them to putting so sound crypto regulatory putting so sound crypto regulatory putting so sound crypto regulatory policies. Um I get involved on the policies. Um I get involved on the policies. Um I get involved on the investment side. We we invest in the um investment side. We we invest in the um investment side. We we invest in the um blockchain AI biotech um the very active blockchain AI biotech um the very active blockchain AI biotech um the very active team um uh doing investments and then uh team um uh doing investments and then uh team um uh doing investments and then uh >> this is within Binance or outside of >> this is within Binance or outside of >> this is within Binance or outside of >> this is outside of Binance. this is a >> this is outside of Binance. this is a >> this is outside of Binance. this is a part of easy labs and then I also help part of easy labs and then I also help part of easy labs and then I also help like mentor coach a few guys in the a like mentor coach a few guys in the a like mentor coach a few guys in the a few funders in the B&B chain ecosystem few funders in the B&B chain ecosystem few funders in the B&B chain ecosystem etc. So between all of those things, I'm etc. So between all of those things, I'm etc. So between all of those things, I'm actually pretty busy. actually pretty busy. actually pretty busy. >> Tell me about Google Academy. >> Tell me about Google Academy. >> Tell me about Google Academy. >> So I thought no, it's possible to uh >> So I thought no, it's possible to uh >> So I thought no, it's possible to uh develop fully digitize all education develop fully digitize all education develop fully digitize all education content. And why is that important? content. And why is that important? content. And why is that important? >> There's some numbers. I think 7 700 to >> There's some numbers. I think 7 700 to >> There's some numbers. I think 7 700 to 800 million adults do not are 800 million adults do not are 800 million adults do not are illiterate. Two two-third of them are illiterate. Two two-third of them are illiterate. Two two-third of them are women. And on top of that, there's about women. And on top of that, there's about women. And on top of that, there's about 500 million kids who are not in school. 500 million kids who are not in school. 500 million kids who are not in school. So if you add all of that up, that's So if you add all of that up, that's So if you add all of that up, that's like 1.2 billion people. Yeah. like 1.2 billion people. Yeah. like 1.2 billion people. Yeah. >> Uh who are not educated. Uh and this >> Uh who are not educated. Uh and this >> Uh who are not educated. Uh and this >> 12 12 13% of the world population. >> 12 12 13% of the world population. >> 12 12 13% of the world population. >> Yeah. And uh these are all in really >> Yeah. And uh these are all in really >> Yeah. And uh these are all in really poor areas. Uh they there's just no poor areas. Uh they there's just no poor areas. Uh they there's just no schools around or they just couldn't schools around or they just couldn't schools around or they just couldn't afford to go to school. Um and the afford to go to school. Um and the afford to go to school. Um and the schools are not very good today either. schools are not very good today either. schools are not very good today either. Um the schools are like you know they Um the schools are like you know they Um the schools are like you know they the schools average you out. the schools average you out. the schools average you out. >> Yeah. No you um you have a classroom and >> Yeah. No you um you have a classroom and >> Yeah. No you um you have a classroom and >> how is the software designed? >> how is the software designed? >> how is the software designed? >> So it's just an app on a phone uh on a >> So it's just an app on a phone uh on a >> So it's just an app on a phone uh on a phone or tablet. It's just an app. Um I phone or tablet. It's just an app. Um I phone or tablet. It's just an app. Um I believe that we have enough technology believe that we have enough technology believe that we have enough technology with you know gaming understanding of with you know gaming understanding of with you know gaming understanding of human psychology with AI a single app human psychology with AI a single app human psychology with AI a single app can deliver all the education content can deliver all the education content can deliver all the education content you need and we can do that for free. you need and we can do that for free. you need and we can do that for free. >> Have you looked at versions of this like >> Have you looked at versions of this like >> Have you looked at versions of this like alpha school and do you have any alpha school and do you have any alpha school and do you have any opinions on that? opinions on that? opinions on that? >> Yes. Yes. I think alpha school is great. >> Yes. Yes. I think alpha school is great. >> Yes. Yes. I think alpha school is great. Um Alpha School is really really good. Um Alpha School is really really good. Um Alpha School is really really good. Um uh but you know it's high cost Um uh but you know it's high cost Um uh but you know it's high cost >> high cost >> high cost >> high cost >> right. So uh uh it's more I think um >> right. So uh uh it's more I think um >> right. So uh uh it's more I think um >> I think Joe's software is called time >> I think Joe's software is called time >> I think Joe's software is called time back. I think that's what it's called. back. I think that's what it's called. back. I think that's what it's called. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Have you had a chance to see? >> Have you had a chance to see? >> Have you had a chance to see? >> I have not played with a with a lot. Uh >> I have not played with a with a lot. Uh >> I have not played with a with a lot. Uh I did meet some of the founders there I did meet some of the founders there I did meet some of the founders there and some of the key executives there. Um and some of the key executives there. Um and some of the key executives there. Um uh they target a they solve a very hard uh they target a they solve a very hard uh they target a they solve a very hard problem of making making the existing problem of making making the existing problem of making making the existing education better where I solve the other education better where I solve the other education better where I solve the other end of the problem making the education end of the problem making the education end of the problem making the education accessible, accessible, accessible, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Uh hopefully better later too. >> Uh hopefully better later too. >> Uh hopefully better later too. >> And so your goal would be that >> And so your goal would be that >> And so your goal would be that this is widely proliferated. this is widely proliferated. this is widely proliferated. Are there schools in your view of how Are there schools in your view of how Are there schools in your view of how giggle works or giggle works or giggle works or >> No, I actually don't want to do schools. >> No, I actually don't want to do schools. >> No, I actually don't want to do schools. Uh, I I want everyone to learn from one Uh, I I want everyone to learn from one Uh, I I want everyone to learn from one app. app. app. >> The software is very reward oriented. >> The software is very reward oriented. >> The software is very reward oriented. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Badges. >> Badges. >> Badges. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm just going to ask the obvious >> I'm just going to ask the obvious >> I'm just going to ask the obvious question. question. question. >> When I looked at it, I was like, well, >> When I looked at it, I was like, well, >> When I looked at it, I was like, well, >> badges is like a trail of breadcrumbs to >> badges is like a trail of breadcrumbs to >> badges is like a trail of breadcrumbs to like like like >> tokenize and earn and payments. Am I >> tokenize and earn and payments. Am I >> tokenize and earn and payments. Am I just making this up or? just making this up or? just making this up or? >> No. Uh, so I thought really hard about >> No. Uh, so I thought really hard about >> No. Uh, so I thought really hard about this. Um, but I res I will for a very this. Um, but I res I will for a very this. Um, but I res I will for a very long time resist issue a token on the long time resist issue a token on the long time resist issue a token on the gold academy. This has pros and cons. Uh gold academy. This has pros and cons. Uh gold academy. This has pros and cons. Uh when you issue a token, you can do the when you issue a token, you can do the when you issue a token, you can do the rewards. You can earn uh learn to earn. rewards. You can earn uh learn to earn. rewards. You can earn uh learn to earn. Learn to earn. Exactly. You can do a Learn to earn. Exactly. You can do a Learn to earn. Exactly. You can do a bunch of stuff. You can do you can bunch of stuff. You can do you can bunch of stuff. You can do you can incentivize teachers. You can to create incentivize teachers. You can to create incentivize teachers. You can to create content. content. content. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um that's good. Um but the uh for me I >> Um that's good. Um but the uh for me I >> Um that's good. Um but the uh for me I want to avoid the token because of me, want to avoid the token because of me, want to avoid the token because of me, >> right? Because if I do a token, everyone >> right? Because if I do a token, everyone >> right? Because if I do a token, everyone wants to buy the token and everyone on wants to buy the token and everyone on wants to buy the token and everyone on the platform. the platform. the platform. >> People want to speculate on the token. >> People want to speculate on the token. >> People want to speculate on the token. >> People want to speculate on the token. >> People want to speculate on the token. >> People want to speculate on the token. People the then I won't be able to tell People the then I won't be able to tell People the then I won't be able to tell if people are they real kids learning or if people are they real kids learning or if people are they real kids learning or they just farmers that that are trying they just farmers that that are trying they just farmers that that are trying to farm the token. Yeah. to farm the token. Yeah. to farm the token. Yeah. >> Um, I want to rem uh if I issue a tok if >> Um, I want to rem uh if I issue a tok if >> Um, I want to rem uh if I issue a tok if Google issue a token, everyone's going Google issue a token, everyone's going Google issue a token, everyone's going to to to >> I have to be honest. I think giggle >> I have to be honest. I think giggle >> I have to be honest. I think giggle sounds really incredible, but that was sounds really incredible, but that was sounds really incredible, but that was where my reptilian brain went was the where my reptilian brain went was the where my reptilian brain went was the >> everyone thinks about that obvious >> everyone thinks about that obvious >> everyone thinks about that obvious thing, right? Yeah, exactly. thing, right? Yeah, exactly. thing, right? Yeah, exactly. >> Um, but I want the giggle I want to be a >> Um, but I want the giggle I want to be a >> Um, but I want the giggle I want to be a real free education platform instead of real free education platform instead of real free education platform instead of a token platform instead of some crypto a token platform instead of some crypto a token platform instead of some crypto thing. thing. thing. >> Right. So if if there's a token then >> Right. So if if there's a token then >> Right. So if if there's a token then people is going to focus on the token. people is going to focus on the token. people is going to focus on the token. >> So your goal is that you'll just deficit >> So your goal is that you'll just deficit >> So your goal is that you'll just deficit finance this and just continue to kind finance this and just continue to kind finance this and just continue to kind of proliferate this. of proliferate this. of proliferate this. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that was my goal. But >> Yeah. Yeah. So that was my goal. But >> Yeah. Yeah. So that was my goal. But what happened is um there's a community what happened is um there's a community what happened is um there's a community project that donates um donated like $12 project that donates um donated like $12 project that donates um donated like $12 million based on million based on million based on >> 12 million$12 >> 12 million$12 >> 12 million$12 >> million US based on memecoin. Um and >> million US based on memecoin. Um and >> million US based on memecoin. Um and this is not some like and I've only this is not some like and I've only this is not some like and I've only spent like maybe three $4 million on the spent like maybe three $4 million on the spent like maybe three $4 million on the entire project so far. entire project so far. entire project so far. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So now you know it's actually net like >> So now you know it's actually net like >> So now you know it's actually net like you know it's hard to give money away. you know it's hard to give money away. you know it's hard to give money away. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So uh it's hard to give money away with >> So uh it's hard to give money away with >> So uh it's hard to give money away with positive impact. positive impact. positive impact. >> With positive impact it's very very >> With positive impact it's very very >> With positive impact it's very very difficult. So u very difficult. difficult. So u very difficult. difficult. So u very difficult. >> So uh yeah. So my plan is I will fund it >> So uh yeah. So my plan is I will fund it >> So uh yeah. So my plan is I will fund it for as long as it needs to reach that for as long as it needs to reach that for as long as it needs to reach that goal uh of a fully um fully digitized goal uh of a fully um fully digitized goal uh of a fully um fully digitized delivery of education in a gamified delivery of education in a gamified delivery of education in a gamified sticky way. Let me ask an AI question sticky way. Let me ask an AI question sticky way. Let me ask an AI question for a second. for a second. for a second. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You said that AI is this third pillar of >> You said that AI is this third pillar of >> You said that AI is this third pillar of your life that you see these big waves, your life that you see these big waves, your life that you see these big waves, right? Yep. right? Yep. right? Yep. >> One of the most interesting things about >> One of the most interesting things about >> One of the most interesting things about AI is that when you basically get one AI is that when you basically get one AI is that when you basically get one level below the English and you start to level below the English and you start to level below the English and you start to look at the embeddings and that the look at the embeddings and that the look at the embeddings and that the layer of embeddings, layer of embeddings, layer of embeddings, >> what you start to see is that it's this >> what you start to see is that it's this >> what you start to see is that it's this machine readable language. It's not machine readable language. It's not machine readable language. It's not English. English. English. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there's a richness of information >> And there's a richness of information >> And there's a richness of information there. It's perfect for agents. there. It's perfect for agents. there. It's perfect for agents. >> It can traverse it. You can cipher query >> It can traverse it. You can cipher query >> It can traverse it. You can cipher query it. You can do all this stuff that it. You can do all this stuff that it. You can do all this stuff that allows you to make really incredible allows you to make really incredible allows you to make really incredible leaps in productivity and otherwise. leaps in productivity and otherwise. leaps in productivity and otherwise. >> Yeah. It stands to reason that agents >> Yeah. It stands to reason that agents >> Yeah. It stands to reason that agents are also participants of commerce and are also participants of commerce and are also participants of commerce and need payments and you know and I think need payments and you know and I think need payments and you know and I think you've said this is like probably the you've said this is like probably the you've said this is like probably the largest user of crypto at some point in largest user of crypto at some point in largest user of crypto at some point in the near future. Describe that vision the near future. Describe that vision the near future. Describe that vision for us. for us. for us. >> Yeah, I think it's it's it's fairly >> Yeah, I think it's it's it's fairly >> Yeah, I think it's it's it's fairly straightforward. I think as you said straightforward. I think as you said straightforward. I think as you said right I think it's very clear soon we're right I think it's very clear soon we're right I think it's very clear soon we're gonna each of us going to have like know gonna each of us going to have like know gonna each of us going to have like know hundreds or thousands or millions of hundreds or thousands or millions of hundreds or thousands or millions of edgings working for us in the background edgings working for us in the background edgings working for us in the background and they will be transacting they will and they will be transacting they will and they will be transacting they will be they will be moving money around be they will be moving money around be they will be moving money around right so uh in theory if I want to right so uh in theory if I want to right so uh in theory if I want to listen to this podcast you know your listen to this podcast you know your listen to this podcast you know your people should pay a few cents to to people should pay a few cents to to people should pay a few cents to to listen to it um whatever economic model listen to it um whatever economic model listen to it um whatever economic model that you want you that you want you that you want you >> more than that CC >> more than that CC >> more than that CC >> sure of course sure but there was some >> sure of course sure but there was some >> sure of course sure but there was some economic model right uh right now u you economic model right uh right now u you economic model right uh right now u you know even last year we talked about know even last year we talked about know even last year we talked about aging is buying tickets for us. It's not aging is buying tickets for us. It's not aging is buying tickets for us. It's not quite there yet, but you will get there, quite there yet, but you will get there, quite there yet, but you will get there, right? Uh they will book restaurants. right? Uh they will book restaurants. right? Uh they will book restaurants. They'll pay they'll pay for hotels for They'll pay they'll pay for hotels for They'll pay they'll pay for hotels for us. Um and then um uh the agents can us. Um and then um uh the agents can us. Um and then um uh the agents can transact a million times more than us. transact a million times more than us. transact a million times more than us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they're not going to use banks. Uh >> And they're not going to use banks. Uh >> And they're not going to use banks. Uh banks just won't be able to banks just won't be able to banks just won't be able to >> Well, banks won't onboard and AML KYC an >> Well, banks won't onboard and AML KYC an >> Well, banks won't onboard and AML KYC an agent. Doesn't even make sense. agent. Doesn't even make sense. agent. Doesn't even make sense. >> You can't do a KYC. They >> You can't do a KYC. They >> You can't do a KYC. They >> It doesn't make any sense, >> It doesn't make any sense, >> It doesn't make any sense, >> right? So, uh >> right? So, uh >> right? So, uh >> but also what agents will do is they'll >> but also what agents will do is they'll >> but also what agents will do is they'll transact at a transaction volume and at transact at a transaction volume and at transact at a transaction volume and at a rate. Yeah. It'll make the traditional a rate. Yeah. It'll make the traditional a rate. Yeah. It'll make the traditional network's head spin. network's head spin. network's head spin. >> Exactly. They're just not going to be >> Exactly. They're just not going to be >> Exactly. They're just not going to be able to support it. able to support it. able to support it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. And also um even stuff like >> Right. And also um even stuff like >> Right. And also um even stuff like investments or trading, right? So today, investments or trading, right? So today, investments or trading, right? So today, you know, you open the Binance app, you you know, you open the Binance app, you you know, you open the Binance app, you look at a chart, you have to like, you look at a chart, you have to like, you look at a chart, you have to like, you know, click on a price level and you know, click on a price level and you know, click on a price level and you have to type in the price and a green or have to type in the price and a green or have to type in the price and a green or red button. That shouldn't be the red button. That shouldn't be the red button. That shouldn't be the interface. The interface should be like, interface. The interface should be like, interface. The interface should be like, hey, look, convert 10% of my stable hey, look, convert 10% of my stable hey, look, convert 10% of my stable coins into B&B. And then you'll figure coins into B&B. And then you'll figure coins into B&B. And then you'll figure out, okay, if you have a large position, out, okay, if you have a large position, out, okay, if you have a large position, you'll do slowly over time. Uh if you you'll do slowly over time. Uh if you you'll do slowly over time. Uh if you have a small position, which what be one have a small position, which what be one have a small position, which what be one one market order? Um, all of that stuff one market order? Um, all of that stuff one market order? Um, all of that stuff should be just happening in the should be just happening in the should be just happening in the background. All right. So, the agent can background. All right. So, the agent can background. All right. So, the agent can do this for us. Uh, you soon you will be do this for us. Uh, you soon you will be do this for us. Uh, you soon you will be able to. able to. able to. >> What is the most viable payment system >> What is the most viable payment system >> What is the most viable payment system today that agents could rely on? today that agents could rely on? today that agents could rely on? >> I'm actually not too sure. Uh, I don't >> I'm actually not too sure. Uh, I don't >> I'm actually not too sure. Uh, I don't think there is any one that's super think there is any one that's super think there is any one that's super that's what crypto project today do you that's what crypto project today do you that's what crypto project today do you think comes think comes think comes >> Oh, you mean crypto? >> Oh, you mean crypto? >> Oh, you mean crypto? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That agents could use theoretically. >> That agents could use theoretically. >> That agents could use theoretically. >> Again, it's early days. I don't want to >> Again, it's early days. I don't want to >> Again, it's early days. I don't want to speculate. I don't want to name any speculate. I don't want to name any speculate. I don't want to name any specific projects. Um, it'll cause some specific projects. Um, it'll cause some specific projects. Um, it'll cause some token price fluctuations. Um but quite a token price fluctuations. Um but quite a token price fluctuations. Um but quite a number of people are working on it. Uh number of people are working on it. Uh number of people are working on it. Uh so especially recently with a more like so especially recently with a more like so especially recently with a more like a AI agent social network thing. So it's a AI agent social network thing. So it's a AI agent social network thing. So it's getting more and more hype. getting more and more hype. getting more and more hype. >> Yeah. Um and uh yeah. So I think you >> Yeah. Um and uh yeah. So I think you >> Yeah. Um and uh yeah. So I think you you'll get there. you'll get there. you'll get there. >> Let me ask you about crypto in general >> Let me ask you about crypto in general >> Let me ask you about crypto in general for a second. What is the role when you for a second. What is the role when you for a second. What is the role when you see see see a lot of stuff around free speech? What a lot of stuff around free speech? What a lot of stuff around free speech? What is the role of privacy in crypto? One of is the role of privacy in crypto? One of is the role of privacy in crypto? One of the things that I struggle with. If you the things that I struggle with. If you the things that I struggle with. If you ask me am I a Bitcoin maximalist? I ask me am I a Bitcoin maximalist? I ask me am I a Bitcoin maximalist? I would say no. Even though I was early, I would say no. Even though I was early, I would say no. Even though I was early, I think my biggest issue with it is that think my biggest issue with it is that think my biggest issue with it is that there's a lack of fungeability, which I there's a lack of fungeability, which I there's a lack of fungeability, which I think is problematic to get to mega think is problematic to get to mega think is problematic to get to mega scale and then there's a lack of scale and then there's a lack of scale and then there's a lack of privacy. privacy. privacy. >> I agree. It's probably the biggest thing >> I agree. It's probably the biggest thing >> I agree. It's probably the biggest thing that will hold Bitcoin back from being that will hold Bitcoin back from being that will hold Bitcoin back from being ubiquitous. Where does privacy play as ubiquitous. Where does privacy play as ubiquitous. Where does privacy play as the world evolves as you see it? I think the world evolves as you see it? I think the world evolves as you see it? I think privacy plays a very fundamental role in privacy plays a very fundamental role in privacy plays a very fundamental role in our society. But right now, as you said, our society. But right now, as you said, our society. But right now, as you said, I also think that uh Bitcoin and most I also think that uh Bitcoin and most I also think that uh Bitcoin and most cryptocurrencies do not have enough cryptocurrencies do not have enough cryptocurrencies do not have enough privacy features. privacy features. privacy features. >> Yeah. Um I think when Bitcoin was >> Yeah. Um I think when Bitcoin was >> Yeah. Um I think when Bitcoin was designed it was going to be pseudo designed it was going to be pseudo designed it was going to be pseudo anonymous but the fact is every anonymous but the fact is every anonymous but the fact is every transaction on the blockchain you can transaction on the blockchain you can transaction on the blockchain you can trace especially now you have a trace especially now you have a trace especially now you have a centralized exchange with KYC. centralized exchange with KYC. centralized exchange with KYC. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Um and you know if you have like >> Um and you know if you have like >> Um and you know if you have like it's actually very easy it's actually very easy it's actually very easy >> and by the way we go always back to the >> and by the way we go always back to the >> and by the way we go always back to the same argument which is it always goes same argument which is it always goes same argument which is it always goes back to the corner case of well back to the corner case of well back to the corner case of well somebody's using this for something somebody's using this for something somebody's using this for something illicit. And I say there are those use illicit. And I say there are those use illicit. And I say there are those use cases, but the overwhelming majority is cases, but the overwhelming majority is cases, but the overwhelming majority is you buy a pack of gum, but tomorrow you you buy a pack of gum, but tomorrow you you buy a pack of gum, but tomorrow you may buy, you know, you may want to buy a may buy, you know, you may want to buy a may buy, you know, you may want to buy a certain movie or a video game, you may certain movie or a video game, you may certain movie or a video game, you may want to buy a cigarettes. And it's not want to buy a cigarettes. And it's not want to buy a cigarettes. And it's not for me to judge. for me to judge. for me to judge. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And dollars are funible in that sense. dollars are funible in that sense. dollars are funible in that sense. There's complete anonymity. We have no There's complete anonymity. We have no There's complete anonymity. We have no idea about what it was used before that idea about what it was used before that idea about what it was used before that I got my hands on it. I got my hands on it. I got my hands on it. >> Yeah. Well, there there actually real >> Yeah. Well, there there actually real >> Yeah. Well, there there actually real applications where privacy is extremely applications where privacy is extremely applications where privacy is extremely important. uh if you book a certain important. uh if you book a certain important. uh if you book a certain hotel and people know that hotel address hotel and people know that hotel address hotel and people know that hotel address like blockchain hotel address receiving like blockchain hotel address receiving like blockchain hotel address receiving address they will know that you will be address they will know that you will be address they will know that you will be in that hotel. That's right. That's a in that hotel. That's right. That's a in that hotel. That's right. That's a that's a physical security for for you. that's a physical security for for you. that's a physical security for for you. That's right. That's right. That's right. >> Right. So there there are real use cases >> Right. So there there are real use cases >> Right. So there there are real use cases where privacy is very important. This is where privacy is very important. This is where privacy is very important. This is why people don't publicize their home why people don't publicize their home why people don't publicize their home addresses online. addresses online. addresses online. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> In many countries if you if you reveal >> In many countries if you if you reveal >> In many countries if you if you reveal somebody in Japan if you re review somebody in Japan if you re review somebody in Japan if you re review somebody's home address that's illegal, somebody's home address that's illegal, somebody's home address that's illegal, right? So uh um so there they're they're right? So uh um so there they're they're right? So uh um so there they're they're real there are real use cases for real there are real use cases for real there are real use cases for privacy and which Bitcoin uh most privacy and which Bitcoin uh most privacy and which Bitcoin uh most cryptocurrencies currently do not cryptocurrencies currently do not cryptocurrencies currently do not provide. provide. provide. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um there's a counter argument okay law >> Um there's a counter argument okay law >> Um there's a counter argument okay law enforcement wanted to track down bad enforcement wanted to track down bad enforcement wanted to track down bad guys that can be done uh even with no guys that can be done uh even with no guys that can be done uh even with no that can be done. Um we I'm supportive that can be done. Um we I'm supportive that can be done. Um we I'm supportive of that but there's fundamental privacy of that but there's fundamental privacy of that but there's fundamental privacy issues. So uh I do think that in the issues. So uh I do think that in the issues. So uh I do think that in the future we uh as an industry need to future we uh as an industry need to future we uh as an industry need to figure out how to uh evolve the privacy figure out how to uh evolve the privacy figure out how to uh evolve the privacy features which no one no one's really features which no one no one's really features which no one no one's really focusing on right now. There's a few focusing on right now. There's a few focusing on right now. There's a few privacy focus of coins. I I was going to privacy focus of coins. I I was going to privacy focus of coins. I I was going to say no one. Um but they are they don't say no one. Um but they are they don't say no one. Um but they are they don't have much market cap. They don't they have much market cap. They don't they have much market cap. They don't they don't have much size. don't have much size. don't have much size. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. Tell me about the book. It's >> Yeah. Tell me about the book. It's >> Yeah. Tell me about the book. It's coming along. It's a it's a it's a it's coming along. It's a it's a it's a it's coming along. It's a it's a it's a it's it's a always a longer project than I it's a always a longer project than I it's a always a longer project than I anticipate. Right. What was the point of anticipate. Right. What was the point of anticipate. Right. What was the point of it? Was it is like catharsis or is it to it? Was it is like catharsis or is it to it? Was it is like catharsis or is it to make a point? Is it to tell the story? make a point? Is it to tell the story? make a point? Is it to tell the story? All of those things? All of those things? All of those things? >> A bit of everything. It started because >> A bit of everything. It started because >> A bit of everything. It started because I was bored. uh because I was I started I was bored. uh because I was I started I was bored. uh because I was I started drafting when I was in prison. It was drafting when I was in prison. It was drafting when I was in prison. It was just to get keep me busy uh because I just to get keep me busy uh because I just to get keep me busy uh because I don't want to deal with you know I don't don't want to deal with you know I don't don't want to deal with you know I don't want to be chatting with it just keep me want to be chatting with it just keep me want to be chatting with it just keep me busy in in prison. So I started drafting busy in in prison. So I started drafting busy in in prison. So I started drafting it and typing on on a very dumb terminal it and typing on on a very dumb terminal it and typing on on a very dumb terminal and sending it to my assistant. Um and and sending it to my assistant. Um and and sending it to my assistant. Um and then once I got out I was like well I then once I got out I was like well I then once I got out I was like well I have enough that if I spend a bit more have enough that if I spend a bit more have enough that if I spend a bit more time on it I can have a book. And then time on it I can have a book. And then time on it I can have a book. And then um uh but but editing a book takes so um uh but but editing a book takes so um uh but but editing a book takes so long. uh every every every pass takes long. uh every every every pass takes long. uh every every every pass takes like two three weeks if you want to edit like two three weeks if you want to edit like two three weeks if you want to edit a book because like know right now it's a book because like know right now it's a book because like know right now it's like uh 95,000 words so it's like 300 like uh 95,000 words so it's like 300 like uh 95,000 words so it's like 300 pages um and then um I'm also editing pages um and then um I'm also editing pages um and then um I'm also editing the English and Chinese version so uh uh the English and Chinese version so uh uh the English and Chinese version so uh uh so it just takes longer but the point of so it just takes longer but the point of so it just takes longer but the point of the book right now I think is just to the book right now I think is just to the book right now I think is just to get the story out I think there's many get the story out I think there's many get the story out I think there's many misconceptions about who I am uh what we misconceptions about who I am uh what we misconceptions about who I am uh what we what I went through what I went through what I went through >> what are those misconceptions do you >> what are those misconceptions do you >> what are those misconceptions do you think think think >> well there's a lot of negative media >> well there's a lot of negative media >> well there's a lot of negative media about crypto there's a lot of negative about crypto there's a lot of negative about crypto there's a lot of negative media about uh um uh CZ, Binance, um the media about uh um uh CZ, Binance, um the media about uh um uh CZ, Binance, um the entire industry and to some extent I entire industry and to some extent I entire industry and to some extent I think there's a lot of negative media think there's a lot of negative media think there's a lot of negative media about Trump the party etc. I that part about Trump the party etc. I that part about Trump the party etc. I that part is not too heavy in my book. I just know is not too heavy in my book. I just know is not too heavy in my book. I just know this is as simple as we we talked about this is as simple as we we talked about this is as simple as we we talked about on this podcast but just for people to on this podcast but just for people to on this podcast but just for people to understand like you know who we who I am understand like you know who we who I am understand like you know who we who I am uh who B to some extent by extension who uh who B to some extent by extension who uh who B to some extent by extension who Binance kind of is from my perspective. Binance kind of is from my perspective. Binance kind of is from my perspective. >> Is it important story for your children? >> Is it important story for your children? >> Is it important story for your children? >> I think so. Yes. Yeah. >> I think so. Yes. Yeah. >> I think so. Yes. Yeah. >> Why? Um I think it's important for them >> Why? Um I think it's important for them >> Why? Um I think it's important for them to un like no they see they of course to un like no they see they of course to un like no they see they of course are more on my side. They know all this are more on my side. They know all this are more on my side. They know all this media uh not the right stuff. Uh but media uh not the right stuff. Uh but media uh not the right stuff. Uh but they haven't I didn't have time to they haven't I didn't have time to they haven't I didn't have time to explain the story to them in this level explain the story to them in this level explain the story to them in this level of detail and I think it's important for of detail and I think it's important for of detail and I think it's important for them to read this and they will them to read this and they will them to read this and they will understand a lot more detail than what I understand a lot more detail than what I understand a lot more detail than what I what I'm able to tell them verbally or what I'm able to tell them verbally or what I'm able to tell them verbally or in person etc. Uh even though the book in person etc. Uh even though the book in person etc. Uh even though the book doesn't contain everything but it's as doesn't contain everything but it's as doesn't contain everything but it's as much as I can put in. What do you want much as I can put in. What do you want much as I can put in. What do you want for your kids? I want them to live a for your kids? I want them to live a for your kids? I want them to live a healthy and happy life however they healthy and happy life however they healthy and happy life however they define it. Uh if they're happy just define it. Uh if they're happy just define it. Uh if they're happy just being a normal person then that's good being a normal person then that's good being a normal person then that's good for me. Uh if they want to do startups for me. Uh if they want to do startups for me. Uh if they want to do startups and you know build companies and that's and you know build companies and that's and you know build companies and that's great. Um if if they want to be artistic great. Um if if they want to be artistic great. Um if if they want to be artistic etc that's great. If they want to do etc that's great. If they want to do etc that's great. If they want to do human humanitarian efforts charity human humanitarian efforts charity human humanitarian efforts charity that's also great. Um whatever they that's also great. Um whatever they that's also great. Um whatever they figure out what they want to do I just figure out what they want to do I just figure out what they want to do I just want to be there to support them. Um uh want to be there to support them. Um uh want to be there to support them. Um uh yeah that's how similar or different is yeah that's how similar or different is yeah that's how similar or different is that from what you got from your that from what you got from your that from what you got from your parents? pretty similar. My my parents parents? pretty similar. My my parents parents? pretty similar. My my parents didn't have pressure to on me. Uh my pre didn't have pressure to on me. Uh my pre didn't have pressure to on me. Uh my pre my parents didn't pressure me to be this my parents didn't pressure me to be this my parents didn't pressure me to be this and that. Like they didn't they're not and that. Like they didn't they're not and that. Like they didn't they're not even like normal Chinese parents where even like normal Chinese parents where even like normal Chinese parents where they want you to be a doctor or engineer they want you to be a doctor or engineer they want you to be a doctor or engineer or or or >> lawyer, engineer, >> lawyer, engineer, >> lawyer, engineer, >> lawyer. Those that was my parents. Yeah. >> lawyer. Those that was my parents. Yeah. >> lawyer. Those that was my parents. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> My parents didn't do that with me. My >> My parents didn't do that with me. My >> My parents didn't do that with me. My parents like you can do whatever you parents like you can do whatever you parents like you can do whatever you want. Just my parents said to me like want. Just my parents said to me like want. Just my parents said to me like >> very unche very unche u my parents said >> very unche very unche u my parents said >> very unche very unche u my parents said don't hurt yourself. Don't hurt other don't hurt yourself. Don't hurt other don't hurt yourself. Don't hurt other people. Right. So don't do drugs. Uh people. Right. So don't do drugs. Uh people. Right. So don't do drugs. Uh don't get into like you know don't don't don't get into like you know don't don't don't get into like you know don't don't get into crime. Um, and then don't hurt get into crime. Um, and then don't hurt get into crime. Um, and then don't hurt other people. Uh, so that's as simple as other people. Uh, so that's as simple as other people. Uh, so that's as simple as like as I got from my parents. And uh, like as I got from my parents. And uh, like as I got from my parents. And uh, yeah, I think there's a lot of people yeah, I think there's a lot of people yeah, I think there's a lot of people that probably hear this and that probably hear this and that probably hear this and they'll probably think that, and I think they'll probably think that, and I think they'll probably think that, and I think this is a real compliment, by the way, this is a real compliment, by the way, this is a real compliment, by the way, so don't take this wrong when I say this so don't take this wrong when I say this so don't take this wrong when I say this this way. That could have been me, too. this way. That could have been me, too. this way. That could have been me, too. Yeah. I think that we glorify success in Yeah. I think that we glorify success in Yeah. I think that we glorify success in a way that makes it seem like it's a way that makes it seem like it's a way that makes it seem like it's impregnable. It's like this very impregnable. It's like this very impregnable. It's like this very quicksotic thing that happens and it's quicksotic thing that happens and it's quicksotic thing that happens and it's not that. not that. not that. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And the reason why I can say that is that the reason why I can say that is that the reason why I can say that is that when I spend time with you and I'm sure when I spend time with you and I'm sure when I spend time with you and I'm sure now with the people, you know, rounding now with the people, you know, rounding now with the people, you know, rounding two hours with you, two hours with you, two hours with you, >> they'll think, man, this guy is >> they'll think, man, this guy is >> they'll think, man, this guy is really normal. really normal. really normal. >> It's a nor I'm a normal dude. >> It's a nor I'm a normal dude. >> It's a nor I'm a normal dude. >> Exactly. A lot of people say that like, >> Exactly. A lot of people say that like, >> Exactly. A lot of people say that like, >> you know, >> you know, >> you know, >> to me as well in this weird way, it's >> to me as well in this weird way, it's >> to me as well in this weird way, it's like you're just a normal guy. And it's like you're just a normal guy. And it's like you're just a normal guy. And it's like there's something really valuable like there's something really valuable like there's something really valuable about working on things that you like about working on things that you like about working on things that you like because then the time just passes. because then the time just passes. because then the time just passes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you kind of just put your head up >> And you kind of just put your head up >> And you kind of just put your head up and you're like, "Wow, okay, there's and you're like, "Wow, okay, there's and you're like, "Wow, okay, there's something new to try. Let's go try that. something new to try. Let's go try that. something new to try. Let's go try that. Let's go learn something." I want to Let's go learn something." I want to Let's go learn something." I want to give you a chance to speak to all these give you a chance to speak to all these give you a chance to speak to all these people who are probably thinking to people who are probably thinking to people who are probably thinking to themselves, "Wow, that could be me." themselves, "Wow, that could be me." themselves, "Wow, that could be me." >> Absolutely. I think um number one, I'm a >> Absolutely. I think um number one, I'm a >> Absolutely. I think um number one, I'm a normal dude. Uh I don't I don't think I normal dude. Uh I don't I don't think I normal dude. Uh I don't I don't think I know I'm not super smart. Uh but you know I'm not super smart. Uh but you know I'm not super smart. Uh but you don't need to be super smart to to be don't need to be super smart to to be don't need to be super smart to to be successful. You can't be too dumb, but successful. You can't be too dumb, but successful. You can't be too dumb, but you can't be you don't need to be super you can't be you don't need to be super you can't be you don't need to be super smart. There's a lot of other things smart. There's a lot of other things smart. There's a lot of other things like you know principles, values, uh like you know principles, values, uh like you know principles, values, uh emotional quotient, a lot of those those emotional quotient, a lot of those those emotional quotient, a lot of those those things come into play. I think um things come into play. I think um things come into play. I think um there's a lot a lot of luck as well. Um there's a lot a lot of luck as well. Um there's a lot a lot of luck as well. Um but I think for most people um you are but I think for most people um you are but I think for most people um you are in a situation where you are you usually in a situation where you are you usually in a situation where you are you usually cannot change the situation. So what you cannot change the situation. So what you cannot change the situation. So what you can only do is change yourself, right? can only do is change yourself, right? can only do is change yourself, right? So if you just push yourself a little So if you just push yourself a little So if you just push yourself a little bit every day, you don't have to push bit every day, you don't have to push bit every day, you don't have to push yourself too hard. You too you push yourself too hard. You too you push yourself too hard. You too you push yourself too hard, you're gonna burn out yourself too hard, you're gonna burn out yourself too hard, you're gonna burn out and you're not going to last long. But and you're not going to last long. But and you're not going to last long. But you want to push yourself to like 120% you want to push yourself to like 120% you want to push yourself to like 120% 110 130 somewhere in that range where 110 130 somewhere in that range where 110 130 somewhere in that range where however you can last long. however you can last long. however you can last long. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if you do that for like 30 years and >> And if you do that for like 30 years and >> And if you do that for like 30 years and you get lucky, you will most likely be you get lucky, you will most likely be you get lucky, you will most likely be relatively successful. You might not be relatively successful. You might not be relatively successful. You might not be a you might not be a billionaire, but a you might not be a billionaire, but a you might not be a billionaire, but you'll you you'll have a very you'll you you'll have a very you'll you you'll have a very comfortable life. Do comfortable life. Do comfortable life. Do >> you think that it's important to maybe dispel the myth that being a maybe dispel the myth that being a billionaire is not everything it's billionaire is not everything it's billionaire is not everything it's cracked up to be? cracked up to be? cracked up to be? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. U money is money. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. U money is money. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. U money is money. So in in our life there's a few if I So in in our life there's a few if I So in in our life there's a few if I kind of picture spiderweb graph right kind of picture spiderweb graph right kind of picture spiderweb graph right money is only one tangent. money is only one tangent. money is only one tangent. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So once you have enough having >> Right. So once you have enough having >> Right. So once you have enough having >> one thread >> one thread >> one thread >> it's one thread. Having more doesn't >> it's one thread. Having more doesn't >> it's one thread. Having more doesn't help you. Uh in fact there's health help you. Uh in fact there's health help you. Uh in fact there's health there's family um there's other things there's family um there's other things there's family um there's other things that can keep you happy like your values that can keep you happy like your values that can keep you happy like your values uh contribution positive impact like uh contribution positive impact like uh contribution positive impact like that's intrinsic internal rewards that that's intrinsic internal rewards that that's intrinsic internal rewards that you feel very happy about. Um a lot of you feel very happy about. Um a lot of you feel very happy about. Um a lot of those things are extremely important. So those things are extremely important. So those things are extremely important. So once you have enough money on this graph once you have enough money on this graph once you have enough money on this graph you don't more doesn't make you happy. you don't more doesn't make you happy. you don't more doesn't make you happy. Sometimes you have more, sometimes you Sometimes you have more, sometimes you Sometimes you have more, sometimes you have less. Um, then how's your health? have less. Um, then how's your health? have less. Um, then how's your health? Also, like there's another dime, time. Also, like there's another dime, time. Also, like there's another dime, time. How much time do you have? Can you use How much time do you have? Can you use How much time do you have? Can you use your time the way you want? Can you are your time the way you want? Can you are your time the way you want? Can you are you working on the stuff you you want? you working on the stuff you you want? you working on the stuff you you want? Are you spending with the people that Are you spending with the people that Are you spending with the people that you you want to spend with? you you want to spend with? you you want to spend with? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, and are your family healthy? Uh, >> Um, and are your family healthy? Uh, >> Um, and are your family healthy? Uh, you'll be you were very lucky if your you'll be you were very lucky if your you'll be you were very lucky if your family is all healthy. Like that's family is all healthy. Like that's family is all healthy. Like that's that's already a huge gift. that's already a huge gift. that's already a huge gift. >> Um, so uh and then your mental health is >> Um, so uh and then your mental health is >> Um, so uh and then your mental health is also important. How to deal with also important. How to deal with also important. How to deal with pressure etc. I somehow am very lucky to pressure etc. I somehow am very lucky to pressure etc. I somehow am very lucky to have a very sort of stable uh mind. So I have a very sort of stable uh mind. So I have a very sort of stable uh mind. So I think all of those things are extremely think all of those things are extremely think all of those things are extremely important and all of those things you important and all of those things you important and all of those things you can improve on uh instead of just money. can improve on uh instead of just money. can improve on uh instead of just money. A lot of people only chase money but A lot of people only chase money but A lot of people only chase money but sacrifice everything else. They work sacrifice everything else. They work sacrifice everything else. They work really really hard. They don't have free really really hard. They don't have free really really hard. They don't have free time. They are not spending time with time. They are not spending time with time. They are not spending time with their family. Their health deteriorates their family. Their health deteriorates their family. Their health deteriorates after 10 20 years. after 10 20 years. after 10 20 years. >> They don't enjoy the time that they're >> They don't enjoy the time that they're >> They don't enjoy the time that they're spending on these things even to get the spending on these things even to get the spending on these things even to get the thing that they have so much of that thing that they have so much of that thing that they have so much of that they don't need. they don't need. they don't need. >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is also the this is >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is also the this is >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is also the this is also the part like you know I'm actually also the part like you know I'm actually also the part like you know I'm actually very grateful that I don't have to run very grateful that I don't have to run very grateful that I don't have to run Binance anymore now I have more time. Binance anymore now I have more time. Binance anymore now I have more time. >> Yeah. Whereas before like even though >> Yeah. Whereas before like even though >> Yeah. Whereas before like even though that was very enjoyable but on my other that was very enjoyable but on my other that was very enjoyable but on my other questions I was not doing well. questions I was not doing well. questions I was not doing well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So yeah. >> Yeah. So yeah. >> Yeah. So yeah. >> CZ thanks for joining the online >> CZ thanks for joining the online >> CZ thanks for joining the online podcast. podcast. podcast. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me.