Actress Who Found the Answer to "What's the Point of It All?" in Her Brooklyn Backyard | Lili Taylor

Key Takeaway

Birds offer a gateway to contemplative practice and presence. By simply looking up and listening—truly paying attention to the sounds, behaviors, and struggles of birds—you can counterprogram the inner voice that asks "what's the point?" Witnessing their will to live, their urgency to mate and survive, reminds us we're part of something larger. Start with 5 minutes: notice one bird, stay longer than feels comfortable, and follow the story unfolding before you.

Episode Overview

Lily Taylor discusses how birding became her unexpected spiritual practice and antidote to nihilism. She explains the concept of biophilia—our hardwired response to nature—and how paying attention to birds helps her feel connected to something larger than herself. The conversation explores listening as a skill, awe walks, and how focusing on the natural world can induce moral behavior and combat hopelessness.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Actress Who Found the Answer to "What's the Point of It All?" in Her Brooklyn Backyard | Lili Taylor from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Lily Taylor, welcome to the show. Hey, glad to be here. Glad to have you here. Uh, so I know you've told this story before, but can you briefly recount how you first got interested in slashobsessed with birds? Well, it's really it's like I've always I always knew they were there, but I I hadn't noticed them. And that happened when I kind of took a break from work about 15 years ago and I went upstate and it was very quiet and I started to become aware of things that were going on out there and it it's a lot like what happened to people during co I just had it 15 years earlier when things got kind of quiet of quiet of quiet and that's when I realized that these things with wings actually had real real life things happening and they were feel and that's when I start to notice birds and why I mean I notice birds uh to a certain extent and I I'm I live in the my wife doesn't like when I call it the suburbs.

She says we're in the country but it's the suburbs and there's a lot there are a lot of birds. I notice them ambiently but I I I haven't been sucked in the way you have. So I'm just curious like what drew you in so powerfully once you started to notice them? That's a good that's a good point. Yeah. It's like what is that difference with noticing? What are the levels of noticing and what why did I go a little bit further in? Um I think well probably because I have had trouble meditating and I have found that that by listening birds help me listen.

Birds help me focus on something outside of myself and it's worked for me. And I've been able to find moments of peace and connect with something bigger through the through observing the bird. And that's I think why I went a little further out of out of desperation probably. So you could you were having trouble finding a contemplative or spiritual practice and the birds turned out to be it. it. it. They were like a gateway into that. Yeah. A gateway. And I think they're a great gateway in general because I think that that that maybe not in your case, but a lot of times they can be a gateway in that if you start to notice them, they can bring you into something that you might like clouds, like like um uh insects, uh trees, because because they're involved with everything.

They so they'll bring you into most things in the natural world. So, if they're not your jam, just just try it out and they may bring you somewhere else. And if they're not your if you don't get anything, you don't have to look. No, I I want to be clear. I probably wasn't clear. I'm not saying birds aren't my jam. I I think this conversation may end up turning them into my jam. It's It's more that I've noticed them, but never really gone deep. Yeah. Um, and so, so I just want, you've raised a lot of like big questions about getting out of yourself, and I want to get into that quickly and soon, but I want to stay with the specifics of birds for a little while at least, like what I I know there's this term, a spark bird, the bird that like does it for you and gets you sucked into birding.

Did you have one of those? No, I didn't. And that's the thing. And I I I open the book saying, you know, uh there's a term in the birding world called a spark bird, and I don't have one. Um and I wish I did because obviously right now would be a perfect example of how that's just an it's it's just nice to it's an easy little, you know, thing to go to. Um and I don't have one. And um and that's kind of a lot of my story is like I'll stay with birds.

Sorry, I keep going off into deeper things, but um No, that's fine. I'm sorry. I'll stay apologies. Um, apologies. Um, apologies. Um, don't stay simple. Do whatever. Do you okay? Um, uh, that my p my path I don't use that word much, but has been um not a lot of white light experiences or a lot of like it it's more like of the the I guess yeah the kind of um garden variety as they say or the um nonexiting or gradual very gradual. And so b and so the bird thing happened for me.

I mean I think there was a moment where I heard a bird in a specific way. It was a blue jay and I heard it. It was really loud and so it caught my attention. I finally was like what is going on? What? Oh I see. There's this okay what's happening? And that's when it sort of something happened where I was like wait you're you're not just like generally squawking. There's actually something behind that noise. there's like meaning there and and like wow you're you're like a bird and so I had a little that he's so that was kind of a moment that was like not a spark moment but it was a maybe consciousness moment.

So when you started to look at birds what did you see that got you interesting? What did you see or hear that got you interested? Was it deciphering the various calls? Was it uh distinguishing among the various types of birds? Like what what sent you down the rabbit hole? I think what start I started to to decipher the sounds and they became specific and from there I started to stay longer than I wanted to stay like past that uncomfortable moment and I I found that when I stayed I saw the story there was always a story if I stayed.

Um, for instance, um, I discovered the house sparrow, that little brown bird that we see all over the place, like pigeons and house sparrows. I found that when it was a top this um, fence post and chirping, I discovered that that chirp was actually um, it's its call for an attack. And that's when I realized that sweet chirping. Oh, those birds are so sweet. They're Oh my gosh, they're twiddling. And no actually that chirp was actually um well I think it's called the chirp of death actually in the so so for in that's an example for instance or um you know um a blue jay making a lot of sound in fact just the other day um the blue jays were making a lot of sound they have a bad reputation blue jays for being they take a lot of bird seed or they bully But they're also known as the alarm call in the bird world.

Sure enough, in Brooklyn, I heard in my backyard the blue jays. I went, stayed longer than I wanted to. And then I found the Cooper Hawk. And so, and it was very quiet out there besides the Blue Jays. Very quiet. When I looked outside this morning, it was like as if it was a ghost town out there. Tumble weeds and stuff. It's cuz the Cooper Hawks around. I couldn't find him, but he's around. this. So, it's like you've tuned into this whole soap opera that's surrounding us all the time that most of us are just missing.

There's all this good plot happening, but we're ignoring it. Yeah. And I I guess ignoring almost feels a little too I I don't want to say like ignoring, but I guess in a way it is, but it could also be just not realizing realizing realizing just not realizing. And the hope is that once we start kind of going into that world, that parallel universe, that it's always there. And that's what I realized when my little sbatical was over that I realized that I could tap into that power of basically survival of the of the it's not even a desire to live, but it's like it's it's the it's the will to live, which I I can I need sometimes.

Not that I'm always wanting to die or something like that. It's not like that. But sometimes I just need a little oomph, you know, a little bit of a Yeah, that's why I'm here. You know, that kind of thing. of thing. of thing. Wait, unpack that a little bit. So, so paying attention to the drama of the birds, this kind of like secret society that's all around us that we were missing out on somehow reinforced what at times can for you be a sort of nent will to live but dormant.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like for instance, one of the things that I do is I go up to the top of the Empire State Building at nighttime in the spring when the winds are from the south because birds from in the spring are traveling from the south to the north and they're traveling to make life basically to breed. They face many obstacles as they come death. A lot, you know, a lot of them die, they don't make it. Anyway, when I'm on the top of that Empire State Building and the birds are very close to me.

I mean, almost like I could maybe touch them if I was taller with my hand, you know, and seeing that that that energy to to to looking straight ahead going to to make life that I think um if if if I recognize that, I must have that inside of me, too. or I wouldn't know it. I wouldn't know it and I wouldn't be so moved by it. And you know, there's a saying that I say a lot in the book that I say almost every day is no contempt prior to investigation.

investigation. investigation. And I think that's the thing is that what birds help me with is for some reason I have contempt prior to investigation. And I don't know why. I just I don't know why I say no a lot. I ju I probably out of fear. I don't know why cuz why am I so why do I say no? What am I so afraid of? What what do I think's going to happen if I if I jump into this experience or and birds sort of just have helped me say yes.

Well, okay. You see two things there uh that I want to follow up on. The first about this kind of will to live thing um and then about prior uh uh contempt prior to investigation. So on the will to live thing, this is me attempting to make a an empathic leap into your mind, but it's mostly just going to be projection on my part. We many of us kind of trudge through life at times where we're just like checking [ __ ] off of our to-do list and it can feel a little rote a little.

Something for you about tuning into the life of birds can jar you out of that rut. Am I close? Yeah, you're close. It even goes It even unfortunately goes a level deeper into into what's the point. Sometimes I wrestle with that. I was just wrestling it with the other day like there's a voice that can come in and say like who cares when I say oh guess I'm I'm curious about you know this is in my mind like I'm oh I want to figure out this thing.

Why? Okay. Uh it's like it's like having a friend that's not very nice or something inside that's just kind of like so and I that's just something I've wrestled with for years. for years. for years. And that's where I guess that's the contempt. That's a that's the contempt. I don't understand why I have that, but I've been able to find ways to not let that get get in the way of me having a having a nice life. Right. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is about the birds that counterprograms so powerfully against your inner nihilist.

Um it's just like their their will to live. They're not having any existential crises beyond am I going to get [ __ ] food? Am I going to am I going to be able to mate and get my DNA into the next species? And there's something about the simplicity and power and urgency of that that uh puts some duct tape over the mouth of your inner nylus. Yes. But also, I think what it does is when I'm out there and I am I'm in in that parallel universe, I'm seeing all all the things that are happening out like even in my yard in Brooklyn.

I'm seeing the bird that ate the seed from the flower that I planted that then that then that then you know the pooped out that seed next door and I'm seeing another flower grow and I'm seeing the babies of that bird uh that morning dove that uh is in fact on my window sill. One of the juveniles is on my window sill about to take off. Maybe he'll or she will take off today. Um, but what that does for me is it makes me feel a part of something bigger.

bigger. bigger. And so I don't feel as alone. I feel a part of something. And I think that's where that that nihilism or that who cares. It's it's where that's where that that aspect is almost like as if there it's not a part of anything, you know, and birds help me feel a part of of the of the whole thing. I'm a part of you you quote E. Cummings, the writer who has a has smooshed a bunch of words, three words into one word. Um and he makes it um this this neolism or whatever more than me.

Correct. More than me. Yeah. It's more than me. And I think that's something that's Yeah. I mean, look, I I love that. I mean, I I named my my corporation. I mean, you know, we have to have these corporation things. I don't even know what I was like, well, I guess I'll name it, you know, more than me, you know. Um, and I think that's one of my things is just is just um maybe I've got a deficit of not feeling a connection to something. And so I have to kind of practice it every day.

You know what I mean? To feel a part of. Somebody asked me yesterday and I didn't I I get these lists of questions that people submit to me before I do uh live streams. streams. streams. Yeah. Uh, and one of the questions was something about hopelessness. And I I didn't I was rushing so I didn't have time to really think it through. But this is you're answering the question more than me is the answer to hopelessness or at least an answer to hopelessness. hopelessness. hopelessness. I I think so.

I think that when we can connect to something bigger, even through people or just something that's bigger than us, I think it's a it's a you got a pretty good chance of feeling a little better, you know, you know, you know, just a little bit more about the b if you if you're up for it, a little bit more education for me personally about the basics of birds. you I've heard this you said something that I've heard said before you say you say this in the book and in the introduction and I had heard this said before but I never I still don't really understand it um that birds are basically flying dinosaurs.

Yeah. Yes. Right. Yeah. You don't didn't did you want some clarification there or what the hell's going on? Like what Yes, please. Please. Um yes. Um, that's what's kind of cool is birds, is birds, is birds, they discovered that birds are the descent, direct descendants of dinosaurs. Like that's their they are living dinosaurs. Like, have you seen some of those pictures of dinosaurs with feathers? feathers? feathers? Uh, Uh, Uh, maybe, but I forgot it. Okay. So yeah, they they found they were able to figure out how to test um or recreate um the the I oh boy, this is where my science this is where I wish I was a scientist.

But um basically they were able to find that dinosaurs not only had a lot of color, but they had feathers. Feathers and Yeah. So birds are and that's so that's what talk about feeling a part of something. Jesus. It's like, oh boy. Yeah. It's not just now. We This has been the earth has been here for a long time, you know, es and flows and it's it's it's uh and boy, do I need this now at this particular moment. I've been like I just need to read a lot more history right now.

That's helping me deal with this moment of this time is is history. history. history. Yes, definitely. History in terms of hopelessness. history really helps me to um to to to view all of the noxious events in the news with some perspective and context. But but back to the nihilism cuz I I have that too occasionally where just to step back for a second um uh at New Year's 2025, I interviewed a an amazing dharma teacher named Vinnie Ferraro who encouraged me to do something that I had heard about a million times but never actually done.

uh which is that in the Buddhist tradition there's there's something called the five daily remembrances that you're supposed to the Buddha recommended that you call these to mind first thing in the morning and uh right before you go to bed I believe um and they are um my body is is going to get old my body is going to get sick my body's going to die someday I'm going to lose everything and everybody I hold dear the only real possessions I have are my actions and um so I've been doing this really consistently consistently consistently And it the point is not to for it to lead to some nihilism and I know that and but there are moments of like well why the [ __ ] would I do X I'm going to die anyway.

Um and so I'm just curious for you like as somebody somebody somebody um for whom this nihilistic streak is is quite prominent and salient. What is it exactly about realizing? Oh, I'm part of this long flow. I'm uh of events, you know, these these little feathered creatures in front of me are the descendants of dinosaur who roamed the earth thousands and thousands tens of thousands of years ago. What how does that get you to do X? Yeah, I think that guys very good, very good question and this is great too cuz it really makes you distill or makes me having to distill and articulate of belief.

Um it it um I think what it does is it it brings me into today into right into you know it's like that that great um not Sanskrit it's what does it look to this day uh for it is life the very life of life in its brief course lies all the varities of existence the pains of something so look to this day for it is life the very life of life. And I think that that that what you just described, the connecting back and feeling a part of helps me look to this day for its life and to just stay stay here today.

Just that's all and that's all I have to worry about and not get overwhelmed with tomorrow and just because like why am I here? Like I'm not just here to trudge, right? I mean or I don't I hope not. I mean I would like to make it more than trudging. I would like to have more um meaningful experiences and I can do something about that and it is up to me to make the meaning cuz the meaning isn't going to make it for me. I have to do it and that's up to me.

And why and then why else am I here? And and I think a lot about my deathbed, not in like just in a way of like to help me think about how to be more now. Like what do what are some things I want to feel like when before I've died? And I do want to feel like I gave it my all. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. May is mental health awareness month and a reminder that whatever you're dealing with, you do not have to deal with it alone.

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That's betterhp.com/happier. I think that's exactly it. Like um the five daily remembrances or just thinking about death generally it it's not meant to nihilism would be a pitfall in that particular path a wrong turn. It's really about introducing urgency into and and vividness into the right now. Uh to counterprogram against our deeply wired tendency to trudge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and yeah, so I think if I think about it for myself, it's like um I've got limited heartbeats. limited heartbeats. limited heartbeats. How do I want to spend this time?

And And And I want to be doing things that are meaningful to me. And and the meaning comes from the interconnection. That's right. That's right. That's right. I'm I'm not I'm not um I'm not say I'm not like wearing a hair shirt and saying I I you know I should never meet my own needs, but my needs are like in this web of everybody else's needs and like there is the truth of enlightened self-interest. I meet my own needs by being useful to other people. And um so um so um so birds or whatever it is that floats your boat boat boat gets you into that space and out of what's the next thing on my to-do list.

That's right. Exactly. And you know I mean there is there is you know beliefs that that that focusing on something outside yourself that's maybe bigger than you. I don't know what that means. Exactly. But that's that's some got something more going on can um can in and you know create a feeling of something sometimes awe ideally. Yeah. You know You know You know well let's talk about awe because awe is really important and powerful. Uh just a note to the listeners we've done uh not a few episodes on ae and so I'll drop some links in the show notes.

The kind of preeminent expert on awe is this guy Der Kelner with whom I've done a bunch of interviews. So I will drop some links to Dher in the in the show notes. But anyway, back to you Lily. The there's a term that you talk about in the book um biofilia. um biofilia. um biofilia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you say more about that? Yeah. Eel Wilson um came up with that. Um it was a theory he came up with and the great um entomologist of a lot of breakthroughs with ants but um that he believed that we are hardwired to respond to the natural world and that all it all it all that's needed is for it to get activated.

All the wiring is there ready to go. And um and that's that's his theory. And um and so that's the good news is that you know and that I see that over and over. I mean, I I I I find this thing I like to do or I don't like to do. What am I talking? I I find that when I'm looking up at a bird, I do find that the human being walks past me and then they start to look up. And I don't exactly understand where this this thing comes from because it see kind of deep, you know, a deep sort of hardwired thing.

I thought maybe cuz cuz things jumped on us from maybe when we were like on the savannah maybe the the leopards and stuff were in the trees or I don't know why I don't know what we needed to look up to to as an instinct but anyway I find people do it but I think it's also because there might be something living up there and and not only do people look up after but sometimes they'll even stop and they'll they'll ask what am I looking at?

and and I say, "I'm looking at these four blue jays." And um and we stop and we both try to figure out what's going on. on. on. And h And h And h how often do those conversations turn into I loved you in Mystic Pizza? Oh, a lot. A lot. A lot. And Oh, a lot. A lot. A lot. And and or or they'll Well, it's actually not that at what it is usually is, hey, do you wait, do you walk do you live in Nope.

Movies and TV. I go right to it. Movies, TV, that's what it is. And then they're like, "Wait, did you know?" I'm like, "I can't name them all. There it's in the rolodex of the vault. You'll go in there, but for now, let's keep looking at this bird. Um, Um, Um, but um but um but um I I found that um here's another example. For instance, I took these kids um when my kid was in grammar school, I would take her class out for uh walks, bird walks, and uh you know, it's you know, look, it's it's 10 minutes to the park, 10 minutes in the park, and 10 minutes back.

That's the equip. That's the whole thing. You don't It looks like the kids aren't even taking anything in, you know. But midway through the year, one of the moms comes up to me and like, "Oh my god, DJ, he he's obsessed with birds now. He wants me to always keep feeding the birds outside. What happened?" And then another time a mom called me. She said, "I'm calling you because because my my son said, "Call Mave's mom. She knows about birds cuz a bird just flew into our window." So you could see how that little opening, that little 10-minute walk or 30 minute walk, something happened, you know, to to two of the kids, something kind of got in there.

And I've seen that happen a lot. the aforementioned Derk Kelner who's a author and scientist at uh UC Berkeley. I believe he once told me with apologies to you Derer if you're listening uh if I'm mangling this but I believe he once told me that evolutionary psychologists think that the societal function of awe or at least one of the societal functions aside from the fact that it feels really good to feel like more than me um one of the societal functions is that it induces moral behavior.

Oh, that um it it once you start to feel more than me, you become a better citizen. citizen. citizen. Huh. Which makes total sense. Yeah. So, all of a sudden, these kids are worried about the birds flying into the windows. the windows. the windows. Uh because they've gotten a taste of more than me. Wow. So, that all Oh, that's fantastic. I've got to read more about that. I didn't And Wow. Um so, it's not it's it's like um it's not like a chemistry thing. It's more just like a societal thing that we all kind of share.

share. share. I I think it's all of the above. Wow. Wow. Wow. And again, I apologize to you if you go do your research and realize I'm full of Look at all the things we've got going. It's a miracle we can even talk at all about any of this and make some kind of sense. Um, but you know what's so interesting about awe is that you know what the root of it is is is is um I think it's think it's think it's uh uh thundering.

Um, I even think it means painful because you know something sometimes when I feel awe I do start to tear up, tear up, tear up, you know, and it hurts sometimes because it feels like cuz that sometimes that that unbearableness of being alive, you know, is sometimes harder at least for me to handle than um than uh anxiety or fear or whatever. It's like it's like I don't say the word awesomeness because I I really like to reserve it for special moments, you know? It's like I don't like to but when that I feel that awesomeness of being here, it's like I even feel it right.

I can even feel it right now. It's like it's overwhelming. I mean, maybe maybe our anxiety and fear is just trying to prevent us from looking at the awesomeness. Yeah, exactly. Because it it's hard it's hard to love. Why do we why hard to it's hard to love. Why do we why are there so many intimacy problems? What what's so scary about love? love? love? Why are we afraid of going deeper with another human being or expo? Why what what do we think's going to happen?

You know, some some little small part of us is very scared of something. Yeah. And and this kind of goes back to you and we haven't used this word yet, but I in my research on you, you've used it to describe yourself, but like your introversion, your occasional shrinking back from life. Yeah. Uh, I don't think it's a coincidence that it was this doorway to awesomeness to awe that turned out to be a kind of lifeline. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And I I I need that lifeline.

Some people some people just have e either more of that chemical in their brain or they have more of something um that they may not have to work as hard as I do with trying to you know um stay somewhat spiritually fit. Speaking of spiritual fitness, one of the practices you talk about in the book for which there are lots of scientific um studies and and evidence um and much of it actually done by Dher who keeps coming up. Um uh you talk about something called awe walks.

Can you say more about like how those are done and what the evidence is for them? Yeah. um I can't remember the name of the scientist who conducted the study but they went out um for like five minutes and the participants basically just were kind of instructed to focus on something outside of themselves themselves themselves and over the course of time they the participants started to feel better. Um, it's it's in the introduction. I I don't want to fuss around with getting the name and all that, but it's it's all there if you wanted to put it into notes because it's some interesting scientist who came up with this study who was able to prove some stuff.

And I tied that into paying attention, which is, you know, attention is interesting because, you know, attent when I learned what attention meant, the root of it, which is stretching tension and it's not our normal state. It shouldn't feel good. It shouldn't feel comfortable. I there it in fact in the dictionary it even says paying attention especially with the mind reaching for something especially with the mind and well even in the phrasiology well even in the phrasiology paying attention paying attention paying attention oh that's interesting oh I hadn't even thought of the paying of course thank you I had I kind of skimmed over that word and just f went straight to the attention right why did they come up with paying attention um right so it's it takes work.

It's hard and and I it's not meant to sustain forever or it wouldn't be a stretch because a stretch means you're going past you're extending. So, it's okay when I can't like on stage. Why aren't I in the moment for the whole play? What's wrong with me? Why am I completely out of the moment? Why am I thinking about dinner after the play? Why am I thinking about why am I thinking about, you know, that how well I cried in the last moment or how well I didn't cry and and almost kind of getting down on myself when I especially when I was younger or even, you know, uh why can't I stay with the bird more?

Why am I always going out of out of why am I always going to something else? It's like because it's hard because paying attention and listening isn't meant to sustain indefinitely. So be go easy on yourself and all you need to do is get back up again or get back get back into listening. And that's why I love listening because it's very actable and it's something I can keep doing even if I I stop listening. And as an actor listening is the most important thing and that's one reason I I keyed into birds a lot is because I found I was using the same skills as with acting which was mostly listening and investigation.

Quick introjection and then I want to follow up on that listening and investigation thing. Interjection is that the lead author of the study was a neurologist named Virginia Sturm. Um, and that's in your book. Um, book. Um, book. Um, can you say more about why listening invest and investigation are such key parts of both birding and acting? I I guess I I I imagine some people listening to this would be surprised because we think of acting as talking. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, yeah. Right. Well, that's a problem.

Exactly. And and and I find when I'm with an actor who's just talking and not listening, it's not there's not much going on. There's nothing very it's not very interesting because the listening God boy I'm having to really articulate some deeper beliefs and words here. Like wait, what does listening even mean? I have to think about that. But I just know that know that know that that again listening it is it is focusing on something that's not me and it's kind of using a lot of f Oh.

Oh. Oh, I know. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Here's a great uh definition. A neuroscientist said, neuroscientist said, neuroscientist said, "Hearing is the sense, listening is the skill, and the difference between the two is paying attention. Huh. I like that. I do too. So, it's more than just the sense. So, when one is listening, one is using other things, you know, that you can't put words to or whatever, but it's like you're having to focus on something that's not you. And and that the other actor is what's giving me the food.

That's where all the energy is. It's not from my backstory or my memory or this is for me. Some actors are great at summoning memories and doing stuff that has not worked for me. But for me, I need to focus on the other actor. And I need to listen actor. And I need to listen and get that food and that's going to inform inform inform what's what me that that that stimuli is going to inform my next thing. listening. I go in and out and that's okay.

okay. okay. It's It's very difficult to listen perfectly and for long periods of time. So, you just get back, you start to listen again. I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm not listening again. [ __ ] I know I didn't hear anything they just said. Oh, Jesus." Okay, that's okay. Just listen again. And then I zone in again. And it's the same with the bird investigation. I love investigation because because because I feel like with acting, I feel like an emotional detective and I feel like what I'm doing is I'm very neutrally following clues following clues following clues within the script.

And what I love about the word investigation is that it it's it the root is vestage. And it's the outline of the thing. the outline of the thing is what you're following, not the actual thing itself. So, you don't ever really get you. Yeah, hopefully if you're a tracker, and I have tracked and it's very difficult, you get to the actual thing you want to find, but really what you're observing is that outline of the thing, the vestage, and you're you're observing it deeply for any clues, and then you go to the next clue and the next clue, and then you have this whole story.

from that investigation. Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. Whether you're gearing up for a busy season or just trying to keep up with everyday demand, Square keeps your business running smoothly. From payments and POS to online orders, inventory staff, and more, all in one place so you can focus on your customers, not your to-do list. Ready to grow or streamline how you run things? Square is offering listeners up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/happier.

square.com/go/happier. square.com/go/happier. Again, sq.com/go/happier. Start with Square and build a setup that grows with your business. I support a lot of local businesses where we live, including restaurants. And you can always tell when you're on somebody's website and they're using Square because it makes the experience quite seamless in terms of the checkout and the receipts. running my own business, I can tell you you want to do as much as possible to get your staff out of the busy work, out of the scut work, so they can focus on customers.

Square helps you run your business more smoothly, bringing payments, operations, and insights together in one place, so you're ready for whatever's next. Right now, listeners can get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/happier. square.com/go/happier. square.com/go/happier. That's sq.com/go/happier. get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do. Just a quick note that came to mind when you were describing listening and and this hearkens back to your earlier statement that you're no good at meditating. meditating. meditating. Uh the core rule of in meditation which is my central job on the planet right now is just to remind people that when you get distracted that is not a failure.

waking up from distraction and starting again is the whole point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and that that's proof of success. And so it's the same with birding. It's the same with acting. It's hard to pay attention. So we're just building the muscle by doing the reps. I have a question. So when you started meditating, did you ever feel worse after meditating? Did you ever go into like difficult areas of your mind that were actually kind of very very very difficult? difficult? difficult? Yes. And the the it still happens the this may not be the case for you but for many people the primary misconception is that meditation is a thing you do to feel a certain way but desire and that's what it is.

You're you want to feel a different way. Desire is a hindrance. If you video um meditation is like a [ __ ] up video game where if you want to move forward, you can't move forward. The point is not to try to achieve a special state. It's to feel whatever you're feeling clearly so that over time your feelings don't own you as much. And that's the key thing to understand. And so it's totally fine if you walk out of meditation with more clarity into your sadness, more clarity.

In fact, early in meditation, many people are like, "Why am I more anxious now?" And the answer is not that you're objectively, measurably more anxious than you were before. It's just that you're seeing it more clearly. Uh, and then over time, what you learn is, oh, I can handle these feelings. I don't have to feed them and neurotically re-up them all the time because I can sit with them. M. And what is your current has your practice changed through the years? Yes. Yes. Yes. And where is it at right now?

What is it today? today? today? I I think it's really important to have it be changing all the time. Um the um so for me, I do about an hour a day, but I don't do it at one go. Um and I'm really flexible about first of all, if I don't hit an hour, I don't freak out. It doesn't matter. Um, and I'm really flexible about depending on the shape of my day, when I'm going to fit it in, what's it going to look like? Is it going to be walking meditation?

Is it going to be seated meditation? Um, and so today, for example, I haven't meditated yet, but I've got to get in a taxi to go to the airport, I'll probably do a little bit in there, and then, um, right before I go to bed when I land in LA, I'll do a bunch of walking meditation. And so, it'll add up to something like an hour. and the the flavors of meditation like there are lots of different types of practice, mindfulness or loving kindness or like I said walking.

It really depends on you know I I usually don't know what kind I'm going to do until I sit down and figure out like what do I need right now? now? now? But you have like a little um tool box of of of definitely definitely definitely of a like at least like 15 for instance or 10 types of Yeah. Wow. Yeah. 10 maybe. Um, am I going to do a body scan today? Am I going to do loving kindness practice? Am I going to do focus on the breath?

Am I going to do open awareness? Um, what style of open awareness? Because there are lots of phrases there. Am I going to do am I going to be lying down? Am I going to be standing up? Am I going to be walking? There. There are just so many options. And that's really helpful to know, especially if you've got some sort of psychological condition like ADHD or I know you have bipolar. um like and I I'm not a a psychiatrist so I can't and nor am I a fully trained meditation teacher.

I can't prescribe the right kind of meditation for the right uh for for you. But it's just good to know there are lots of options and you can tailor it to what works for you. I don't have size does not fit all I am on meds but my dad had bipolar. Just just so for the record, just so people don't come to me and be like, whoa, whoa. You know, are you on a manic uh phase, right? I just want just so people don't know that I'm don't don't try to like, you know, get me into a psych war.

Do you think you're Do you think your your you've been like your behavior thus far in this interview could be computed as manic? Is that what you're worried about? Um, yeah. Uh I mean I mean I probably had like a low level of it but nothing like my dad. So anyway, but okay, okay, okay, um what I love about see one of the problems for me is um I seem to come across such more strict, you know, meditation kinds of practices. And what I what I love about about what you do is it's so much is allowed.

You know, you don't have to sit a certain way. You don't have to freaking um No. Like like and it sounds like you do a lot of walking meditations. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. What Yeah. What Yeah. What just to be clear when I say walking meditation it's not as my meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein once said it's not recess. It's not like just go take a walk. Um so and nor is it an awe walk although I think you could mix them if you're doing it the right way.

Um but you are really trying to pay attention in a certain way uh to the physical sensations of the movement uh any other sensory packages that are being delivered like seeing and hearing uh then every time you get distracted start again and again and again and there are different phrases you can use there to to keep you in the game. There's a there are different techniques you can use like little mental noting. There are different uh uh paces, you know, like um you can go at a at a quick clip or you can go really really really really exaggeratedly slowly.

Um so it it just to get back to your main point, the it's really about optionality and figuring out what works for you. Now, are they all Buddhist? Uh yeah, for me. Um, but I'm I don't have to be a Buddhist and I could take one of those techniques and it doesn't matter if I'm a Buddhist. a Buddhist. a Buddhist. Yeah, the Buddha didn't even talk about Buddhists. That's a later term. Um, like that you you can do do you you cafeteria style is totally fine.

Just take what works for you. Don't worry about the labels. It doesn't matter. Great. Um, I I do want to say I I do want to apologize for I thought I had read an article that said that you struggled with bipolar. Um, clearly it's it's your dad, not you. Uh, so I just want to apologize for getting that wrong. No, no, that that might have been from like the late8s. Some journalist I think took something I said out of context and it like all this stuff follows you around till you know I think I didn't want to read I think I didn't want to read it, but I think some journalist said I was bipolar.

And that might be from old notes or something from Wiki. I don't know. know. know. Got it. So there are a couple of points I want to hit on before I let you go before I I I we are we run out of time. Uh one is, you know, we've been dancing around this point, but I just want to kind of just put a hang a lantern on it. The idea that that that so much of what we do is, as we keep saying, trudging through our to-do list, we view our daily activities, many of us, through the lens of productivity, right?

And yet there are there's this whole class of activity um and you use this phrase in the book um autoilic activity where the whole purpose of the experience is the experience itself. You're not trying to get somewhere. Um so can you can you talk about why that's so compelling to you? Yeah, I Well, it's sort of like that thing that happened when I described, you know, when I was curious about something yesterday and a voice said, "So what?" Well, the thing is is so what? Because so I I can just have this experience just for the experience.

That's what I don't have to to to I am under no pressure to take this experience into any sort of result, you know. Um, and maybe maybe I've got that over over my head, a little bit of like, well, what are what are what are you going to do with it? What are you going to where's it going to go? You know, um, like for instance, when I started writing the book, I didn't know it was going to be a book. book. book. And I kind of used that autotellic that sort of well I'm just going to write for the sake of it and see what happens you know instead of please don't pressure me into you know this must be a book and it must be a I probably wouldn't have been able to do it.

it. it. So I think I I just love that because it helps me follow my helps me follow it helps me follow my curiosities more when I just can say I don't know where this is going to go. I don't I don't know. But don't I don't know. But I'm doing it just because it's for the experience. experience. experience. There was another guest on this show recently who was talking about I think he used the word atic. I don't know if there's some sort of if it's the same if it's synonymous, but he was talking about doing things just for the sake of doing things.

And I got a text from a former colleague of mine literally last night um who was just listening to that episode while cooking dinner and uh heard this guy talk about autoilic or atilic or whatever you know just doing [ __ ] for the sake of doing the thing and she had to sit down rewind it and listen again and re-examine her whole life. uh she said because it was just like she's on this autopilot and I I really resonate with it like this um this productivity narrative we're in of like got to get [ __ ] done to the next thing.

I get the I'm I'm get things done. Okay. Oh, no. I'm I'm faking I've got all those systems and I I love them and I'm hardcore, you know, get things done, which is probably why I also really need to have this other thing cuz I need structure and I need to have like heruristics and like, okay, if I I'm I'd like to do this this week and I wouldn't have finished the book if I hadn't used the GTD stuff, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Anyway, Anyway, okay.

Okay, so the last question I I well, well, well, it's not entirely honest to say it's the last question because I have two questions I always ask at the end of every interview, but this is the last question on my little list here in front of me that I I I want to make sure I get to. This is going to be a little random and and not necessarily uh it may feel like a little bit of a nun sequator, but I did make a note uh specifically for our city listeners.

um that even pigeons can be observed and listened to and u there's a lot to see there um and because most of us tend to ignore the pigeons. So can you just hold forth a little bit about uh how we can use pigeons to our advantage um psychologically? psychologically? psychologically? Yeah. Um I'll I'll text I'll text you guys um a great little book I have about pigeons by Rosemary. I think it's Moscow. I'll I don't have it in front of me, but it's a simple, sweet little book with pictures and stuff for grown-ups.

And it's all about pigeons. And um I needed to read it because I I I judge pigeons. I I I I didn't think much of them. And they're actually great because they're always around. They are a great way to focus on something outside of yourself. They look they're very different. So they're easy to um sort of like uh uh identify like they look different from each other. So you can follow like X with the black spot on the on the head from Y who has a white who's completely white.

And you can kind of follow them and I can see them in my yard and see their stories play out and like, oh, I know that that guy, you know, I know that one from that one. And um they're they've got some complex stuff happening. I mean they're they're you know they're interesting. So just give them a shot and follow them around and you know why not? If you're like waiting for a bus like why not you know instead of better than looking at your phone your phone your phone a million%.

a million%. a million%. Okay so here are the two questions I always ask. One is was there were there anything any areas that you were hoping we would cover that we haven't gotten to? to? to? I don't think so. I hope not. I feel like we've gone to a lot of places. Uh and finally, can you just remind everybody of the your book, the name of the book, um and also anything you know you're doing either on stage or on the small screen or the big screen that we should be checking out?

Sure. Um, the book is called Turning to Birds: The Power and Beauty of Noticing. And um, I'm about to start The Hunger Games, which is great. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't I thought there are more movies to be made in Yes, there are, baby. There's a se there's a prequel. That book you see out now that's in that's everywhere. The I'm going to butcher the name. Um cuz I just keep saying Hunger Games, but it's really like the solstice of the reaping or I don't know what.

It's that it's that purple gold one. It's the one we're seeing everywhere. Okay. Um yeah, it's the prequel. It's the origin story. origin story. origin story. Wait, so were you in the original Hunger Games? Games? Games? No. No, I the woman that the one character I'm playing was old and so I'm the young version of her. Okay, Okay, Okay, Mags. So, um, it's great, man. I'm very excited. excited. excited. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. It is awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, this was a huge pleasure. Thank you for making time for us. This is great. Thank you. Great to meet you. Thank you. You, too.