A Buddhist Antidote to Fear and Anxiety | Devin Berry

Key Takeaway

Meditation teacher Devon Berry shares his journey from angry, prickly person to compassion practitioner through meta (loving-kindness) meditation. The key insight: You don't need to feel loving to practice loving-kindness—simply offering well-wishes without hatred is enough. Start with easy beings (pets, children), use phrases that resonate with you personally, and accept that some sessions will feel dry or rote. The practice isn't about achieving brilliant white light experiences; it's about cultivating non-separation and reducing the automatic tendency to see others as threats or obstacles.

Episode Overview

Devon Barry discusses his resistance to and eventual embrace of meta (loving-kindness) meditation, one of the four Brahma Viharas (divine abodes) in Buddhist practice. Initially skeptical and angry, Barry found meta meditation particularly challenging because it addressed exactly what he needed most. The episode explores practical approaches to meta practice, including customizing phrases, starting with joy or humor, and understanding that the goal isn't transcendent feelings but rather non-separation and reduced ill will. Barry emphasizes that meta practice helps us stay engaged with difficult situations and people without hatred, making us more effective advocates and citizens, especially during challenging times like contentious election cycles.

Full Transcript

Transcript of A Buddhist Antidote to Fear and Anxiety | Devin Berry from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I just noticed a lot of people didn't want to hang out with me. They didn't want to be around. Life wasn't going so well and I probably wasn't the happiest. That was the very first time that I actually had heard of meditation was sitting in the back of a van with someone who had just come back from India who turns out knew nothing about meditation but was teaching us everything about meditation. I thought it was complete BS. I was convinced that it was something made up by some hippies in Marin County in California at Spirit Rock.

It's the antidote for that. So often times even when I'm talking about anger or hatred or ill will ultimately getting down to fear as well. I won't be angry. I won't be upset. I won't be screaming at you in the car or anywhere else. And that's I mean given the world we live in, I think that's actually great. Devin Barry, welcome to the show. Good to be here. Glad you're here. I used to way back I mean this podcast has been around for a minute like seven, eight years and at the beginning for many years I would always start the show with the same question which is how did you get into meditation?

I stopped that for a variety of reasons but you actually have a really good story of how you got into meditation. So I'm going to resuscitate this tradition and with you. So can you tell that story? Yeah. So, there's a couple different couple different things that allowed me to to find meditation. And I think one was was definitely life wasn't going so well. And I probably wasn't the the happiest of friendliest of of of people. Pretty prickly aversive personality. And I I think at at the encouragement of of some friends seeking out meditation and then eventually seeking out meta meditation soothe some of that or just you know allow myself to get back into my body a little bit or allow or at least allow the anger that energy to not be completely and totally unchecked.

That was one arena. I also had another arena of of traveling as a as a young person way back when and having a a friend of a friend who oded and sort of sent me into a tail spin of you know grief and sadness and and all of that and I was a young person so in returning back to the states was pretty lost and was actually looking for something to help me out at that time. I wasn't interested in going to therapy. I wanted something to do.

And again, someone suggested meditation. I lived not far from the San Francisco Zen Center. Decided to go there a couple of times, but I went during the week when it wasn't open to the public. And so, you could you could go in, but there was no instruction. So, it's just a bunch of bald people in black robes facing the wall. And so, as a 20some year old, that wasn't Yeah. felt a little culty and strange and odd. So, I skipped out on that. So mostly read books and then eventually found an MBSR class.

I found spirit rock and Jack's teachings and sort of those were a couple of the original original original Jack being Jack Kornfield MBSR mindfulness-based stress reduction which is the kind of secular version of Buddhist meditation. And you also referenced meta meditation which we'll I want to spend quite a bit of time on. But before we get to that, let me just stay with you for a second. You mentioned that anger was a prominent part of your psychological mix. What what can you trace that to if anything?

I trace that to well personally things not going my way. Just sort of feeling that I disappointed parents, let family down, let myself down. I was pretty competitive person. At some point things sort of got got away from me and I I took everything quite personally and my anger sort of grew and grew as I was you know in San Francisco and and and of course along with the normal societal things things that come along with being in this in this incarnation this body that I'm in.

So you add all of that mixed together it was quite a quite a a cocktail I would say a cocktail of of anger. I was a pretty nasty person and it it really sort of but mostly came to a head as I was taking the train from near the beach in San Francisco downtown to work every day. I just noticed that by the time my 30 45 minute train ride by the time I got off the train in downtown San Francisco I was tight like physically tight and there was probably if looking at me if I had a mirror there was probably a bit of a scowl on my face as well.

I knew everyone else's story. I knew what they were doing and they were stopping me and on and on and on. So that's really where I was and I would I picked, you know, it was hyper hyperritical voices turned on myself and turned on other people. And at some point I could just noticed uh a lot of people did people didn't want to hang out with me. They didn't want to be around. You know, I wasn't the kind of guy you'd invite to a party at that time for sure.

So although although although I needed something. Do I have it right that the one of the initial recommendations visav meditation came to you while you were at a Grateful Dead show? Dead show? Dead show? Oh yeah. Oh. So that that was the very first time that I first the very first time that I actually had heard of meditation was sitting in the back of a van with someone who had just come back from India who turns out knew nothing about meditation but was teaching us everything about meditation.

I've played that role before and you Yeah, he's occasionally I I step into that role occasionally. Yeah. So he you know I I I was more intrigued with his travels to India than anything. But you know he did actually for a few minutes there teach us some breathing breathing in and out breathing you know breathing at the belly and I found it interesting and I took that into the the into the show New Year's Eve 1985 Oakland Coliseum and at some point in time the Grateful Dead during a cover of Buddy Holly's Not Fade Away I noticed the breath coming in and out was my first meditation experience.

Never saw the dead sense. Um, never saw the person who was purporting to teach us meditation since. And I think I turned out all right. Seems to be going well. Okay. So, let's talk about meta me ta loving kindness meditation. Um, at first I understand it, you were quite resistant to it. Oh, yeah. I I thought it was complete BS. I I was convinced that it was something made up by um some hippies in Marin County and California at Spear Rock. I just I couldn't imagine that this was actual some actual part of ancient spiritual teachings.

I didn't believe it. And and I think that that was also probably mostly due to the fact that it was a thing that I most needed. And I had noticed in a few of the meta sittings on retreats I started to go to, I think I probably noticed some emotion beginning to bubble up. And I think that scared me. So, I tended to stay away. If I saw on the listing that Meta was at 3:00, then I that was always a convenient time for me to go for at that time a jog or go for a walk.

I skipped it. And I think even too in in hearing some of the teachers talk about it or teach it, it just it sounded, you know, I taught kindergarten for for a short amount of time and it and reminded me of some of the ways that I talk to kindergarten students and it really just really got under my skin. And as I said, it was I I think it was what I most needed. It was the the the energy, the support that I most needed in the world.

And therefore, I was I rejected it at every single turn. And then I think at some point, I don't know if it was listening to Sharon maybe, and she used a bit of an instruction, one that I still use now of of really looking at the phrases as as pointers and really guiding myself to direct the attention underneath the words themselves, you know, to just underneath the concepts to be able to offer the phrases in the same way that I'm breathing. So resting the attention on the phrases in the same way that I rested attention on the breath.

So all of those were some practical things that when I tried those, I felt like I was sort of on my way and I sort of gave up the idea that I needed to have some grand catharsis or breakthrough in order to be successful. I have I have a bunch of plus ones to everything you just said. But before I before I start trading experiences with you, maybe it would make sense for you to describe and define uh the practice and the term meta. meta. meta.

Yes. Okay. So meta is in in the Buddhist cosmology, it's one of the four braharas, these divine abodess, these qualities of the heart. So meta is this quality of the heart of of of well-wishing, wishing ourselves and others well, success, loving, kindness, friendliness, benevolence, goodwill. And I often don't break it down to one of those words. I sort of again I use that that's um somewhere in the arena of goodwill, friendliness, loving kindness, benevolence. I use all of those things. And so in the formal practice itself it is so if you're sitting on your cushion or or walking out and about in the streets then there are classically there are some phrases that one might use happy may I be happy and peaceful may I be safe and protected you know and there are and actually I won't even give the classical phrases because people get hung up on those what I found most h helpful is to create or customize some phrases that make sense for you that have meaning for you that you understand although so I use may I be happy and peaceful I've been using those for years and years and years but happiness I don't necessarily really easily relate to the word happiness I think I'm relating more to the word joy and contentment but contentment but contentment but may I be happy may I be peaceful there's a rhythm in there may I be safe and may I be protected uh may I live with ease and ease and well-being um and really the focus on that is ease for me and often times Again, the phrases are pointers.

So, I will initially use the phrase, but I'm I'm trying to connect with the sense and feeling underneath feeling underneath feeling underneath those phrases and those words. And sometimes the phrases or words dissolve into one word. So, maybe it's happy, peaceful, but I'm really connecting to that. I'm embodying that that that sense of of of peacefulness. I learned early on that at times it you know and and many people have have have brought this to me that that it can be wrote or dry in in doing meta practice.

So I often have started meta practice with a little bit of joy. So I need something to sort of prime the pump. And so I often start with a little bit of humor, a little bit of joy to sort of reframe things. And I've been using and I tell this in every meta overview that I give on on retreat. I use the same story. I've been using the same story for years and it's it's uh my brother and I traveling with my mom and dad from the Midwest to New York.

They're showing us New York. They're their favorite place. They're really excited. We're going to get to see it. It's the early '7s. We get close to New York. We My mom and dad are looking out the window. My brother and I are playing in the back and my mom's like, "Turn around. Look, look out the window." She was trying to show us these buildings and this bridge. And as I said, it's the early '7s. And my mom is upset now that we don't seem to be excited about this.

But being the early '7s, both my parents had gigantic afro. We couldn't actually see what they were looking at because of the afro. I can see it as plain as day. And it's ridiculous and absurd and it puts me in an easy easy place. I was maybe seven years old when that happens. Still tell myself the same story. There's a little bit of a smile. There's a little bit of an easing back. And then I start my meta practice. I learned meta or loving kindness from a teacher named Spring teacher from a teacher named Spring Wash.

I don't I don't know if you know her. her. her. Okay. So, Spring. Yes. I think we can both agree she's terrific. U she's been on the show many times. I'll I'll drop some links to prior episodes with Spring. We have a pretty special relationship. She's she likes to make fun of me. She teaches uh but just this picking up on your point about starting with some joy because the the practice can seem I sometimes call it like um Valentine's Day with a gun to your head.

It can feel a little forced or trly or whatever. She has and I I think she's not the only one who does this, but she has her students start with an easy person. So I actually what I do is I frontload with two easy people. I uh one of our cats, we have four cats, so I just pick one whoever I'm who hasn't taken a dump on my pillow recently. Then I do my son and then I go into the rest of the uh of the rotation.

And just for people who are, you know, new to the practice, Devon just gave a great description. Essentially, you're starting by visualizing either either yourself. Classically, it's you start with yourself. Western teachers have kind of inverted it. So you start with an easy person. Then you go to yourself. It's kind of a contemplative bait and switch and then you go to a mentor and then you go to this is the classical progression. Then you go to a neutral person, somebody you see all the time and might be tempted to overlook.

Then you go to a difficult person, not hard to find. Often the recommendation is to go with somebody mildly annoying, not you know like pole pot or homicidal maniac or whatever. And then um you finish with all beings everywhere. So yeah. Is that is am I describing it roughly in a similar way to the way you might teach it? Yeah, absolutely. Often times, you know, I just so I do start with that easy being. So oftentimes it is a little bit of a story that I'll start with and then I move to the easy being and similar to you there there are two dogs within my easy being and children.

And so oftentimes before I even get to myself then I use my mentor benefactor just from where where I came from years ago. There are so many people that have directly supported me and that I've benefited from from teachings and things that I use my mentors. All of that really primes the pump so that it is much easier much much easier not guaranteed but it's much easier to then work with myself and work with anybody else after that point. But yeah, a a key thing pointed out to me and you kind of hit on this but I I would like to hear you say more about it is that you don't have to feel any kind of way.

that the point here is not to be soaring off into unconditional love. Yeah. That that you know if that if that happens right off the bat, great. But does it but that's I think that's a that that's a hole. That's a rabbit hole a mistake that people fall into and often times I'm never practicing again. I don't understand why I have to do this is because they're wanting right to be bathed in brilliant white light and you know just just being lifted slightly 6 in off the floor.

And that's it. It it doesn't, you know, there are plenty of times when I've done it and the feeling the feeling ends up being right now I feel okay. Right now I feel like I'm not going to harm you. Right now I'm not going I mean really and that that that is that's enough. It's a feeling of non-illw will non-hatred. It can be that there are times right the juices get flowing and right it feels quite lovely and warm and um it feels like you know I want to gift everything to everyone and I'm genuinely wishing everyone goodwill and happiness and then there are those times when I'm just at balance.

I'll be able to walk out of the door and I may have a slight smile on my face but I won't be angry. I won't be upset. I won't be screaming at you in the car or anywhere else. And that's I mean given the world we live in I think that's actually for me that's good enough. That's good. I think that's actually great. Non-separation. Non-separation Non-separation Non-separation because our culture is constantly driving us is driving our heads up our own asses all the time because we we're we're we live in an individualistic culture.

We live in a social media culture where we're all encouraged to be creating our own brands. So we feel separate and afraid from other afraid of separate from and afraid of other people. in this practice is like an antidote. antidote. antidote. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I've noticed a few times recently in doing doing the practice, I was in a particular area of the country that was a little bit um difficult for me just in terms of uh some of the social and political messages that were coming my way there.

And in doing meta practice and leaving my hotel room and encountering a number of people, what was there for me was, you know, the folks that I was encountering and speaking with wanted the best for themselves and their children. Same as I did. Saw a guy like holding his partner's hand as they're walking down the street, older couple. I saw someone taking their kids to school and I'm like, we're all, you know, wanting the best for ourselves and and everyone else. and then as I'm coming out.

So, so for me in cultivating method is really helping that to be more of my default rather than get away from me. Yeah. You need to stay on your side of the the the the road or town and I need to stay here. Yeah. It's the idea. It's just it it creates I I think what I've seen over the years there there's less I'm not as quickly cultivating these separating thoughts or separating ideas of really sort of isolating myself. It's not, you know, I'm not saying we're all going to jump into, you know, hold holding hands and in the circle game and and singing kumbaya.

It's not not that, but but that I see you as another human being on the planet and I can share space with you and and you know, we have children and we have all sorts of differences, but you know, some of those differences can be celebrated at different times and we can agree to disagree, can agree and we can agree to disagree, but I don't need to hate you. I don't need to have you gone and me here. I believe meta helps with some of that, right?

It's it's it sort of helps with it's that that thread that that brings together some of the I guess the teachings and social possibility of social transformation. social transformation. social transformation. Doesn't what you're describing seem super useful in a nasty presidential election cycle. I believe that it is uh crucial for any anyone that is already a practitioner, whether they're secular or whether in the the Buddhist realm. I would think that this year might be the year to really ramp up on compassion practice and meta practice without a doubt.

And not as a way, you know, cuz people hear that and they automatically think, oh, you're just you want to paper all over with love. Nope. That's not at all what I'm talking about. Again, it's back to non-separation. just cultivating that that if anything I I do think it's it's it's a crucial thing that I would love to see more and more of that amongst folks in my circle and and otherwise. You know what my wife loves? I think she loves me. Pretty sure about that.

But I'm 100% sure she loves Warby Parker. She's got I think three maybe four pairs of Warby Parker glasses. She's got one pair for just reading, another for just vision. that she has progressives. She always has a pair of Warby Parker glasses on her person. She particularly likes the aviator styles, which apparently get her a lot of compliments. And so she was very happy to hear that Warby Parker is now a sponsor of this show, a supporter of Sanity, as I like to refer to our sponsors.

Nothing comes close on quality, price, selection, and customer service. Once you buy from Warby Parker, you realize how much easier they've made the entire process. Their virtual tryon is a total game changer. You can literally try on glasses from your phone before you buy. It's wild how well it actually works. Just point your camera and boom, you can see tons of frames on your face in real time. They have everything you need for happier eyes. That includes contacts, online eye exams, and sunglasses. It's all in one place, which makes everything so much easier.

They also have uh 300 retail stores across the US. Warby Parker gives you quality and better-l looking prescription eyewear at a fraction of the going price. Our listeners get 15% off plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription glasses at warbyarker.com/happier. warbyarker.com/happier. warbyarker.com/happier. That's 15% off when you buy two pairs of glasses at wbby parker.com/happier. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that 10% Happier sent you. Tell me if you agree with with what I'm about to say because I hear this too.

This idea that you're papering over differences. Your your cultivation of non-separation is basically like cosigning on the other side's terrible ideas or whatever or being resigned passive etc etc. In my view or the way it's the way meta practice has worked for me at least is or I think it's worked this way. I could be fooling myself is it it doesn't lead me to feel passive or resigned or disengaged. It it helps me stay engaged but not from a place of hatred. And so and that's a that's a cleaner burning fuel that's going to help me be more effective in the long run.

How does that go down with you? you? you? 100%. I'm I am in agreement 100%. Yeah, that is it. It it it helps me be in the world. It helps us to be in the world. It helps us to engage with the world. It actually the the meta practice allows me at times to take a little break from this idea that I need to take care of everything at all times for everyone. Um it allows me to step back for a moment and then step forward.

It allows me to to to notice more quickly those separating thoughts and ideas, that little bit of ill will and hatred that that bubbles up. You know, again, it's it's it's constant I'm constantly wanting to incline the mind towards these the more wholesome or gladdening the mind. And that is not about being passive. It's actually for me it's about being more engaged, more and more engaged. the more that I'm doing these practices, the more likely it is that that I can openly and easily advocate for whatever it is that that that I need to advocate for to be engaged in the world and not turn away from it.

I feel actually quite fortified with the Brahma Vajara practices that I can look at anything and not and not uh turn away turn away in fear, turn away in hatred. Let me just pick up on that term brahma vihara. you referenced it earlier, but it might be worth, you know, kind of going one click uh deeper on it. So, I'll say a little bit and then maybe you can just pick up and and and correct any errors I've made and and uh and just expand upon it.

But, as you referenced earlier, there are these four sets of practices, four states of mind for which there are practices in the Buddhist tradition. Uh they're called the divine abodess classically. One of them is meta or loving kindness. The other is compassion or karuna. Karuna and meta are words in the ancient language of Pali. The third is sometimes called sympathetic joy or it's like the opposite of Shoden Freud. It's being happy because other people are happy. And so that's sometimes called muda m u di ta.

And then the f the fourth is equinimity or upka. And so c can you say a little bit more about this this family of of both qualities and practices? So each of these these qualities of the heart states of mind these four braharas are you know come to us from the from the Buddhist cosmology Buddhist teachings and they work they work hand inand so if I'm looking at any of them typically there there is a thread of one or two or all of the others embedded in some of that in one of the other practices.

So looking at equinimity which in my mind so I'm just translating it is the ability the capacity to stand in the middle of all of this. So this this year that we have all that's going on, it's me being able to stand in the middle and not just completely collapse. And how do I not completely collapse in that? It's all of the other three. So in any of the practices that I'm doing, there is a thread of joy. It would so it's not always that sympathetic or resonant joy.

Sometime it's just it's it's it's just joy. So there's a thread of that that I try to include in everything that that I'm doing and meta wishing myself and others kindness, friendliness to have that run through everything else that's there. compassion comes about when even when I see those that that you know that may be doing some difficult harmful and challenging things then yeah of course like with anyone else I have you know anger at times rage that comes up but there's also in consistently consistently practicing compassion that comes up as well because I've I've oftenimes I've seen that there is something going on in this being's life to cause them to um cause this amount of harm and so I tried to touch in on that and touching in on that doesn't mean that I'm now not going to do anything.

Sometimes you need to advocate sometimes, you know, this this involves lawyers and voting and all sorts of things, right, that needs to happen. It doesn't mean those things go away. I can still have compassion for someone and know that they also need to face the consequences of whatever it is that that they're they're involved in as well. So each of those practices are sort of I see this almost like a a ball of just light sort of you know reflecting on each of them at different times and I do practice them individually.

Meta is the the foundational practice. So it is one that I'm formally and informally practicing all the time. Um but I have plenty of retreat time where I do the others and you know and and in practicing consistent consistently even if you're not formally practicing any of these they're going to arise right so so if if I'm not formally practicing meta or not formally practicing compassion just doing my my insight practice my the vaposa practice being with the breath wherever at the at the nostrils or the belly or the chest if I'm there consistently ly and the mind starts to quiet down then the heart starts to open up then those different qualities arise anyway.

So you get to see them that way as well you know so so it it it can be both seen and known formally and practice in that way and we also experience those through our insight practice. Can you say a little bit more about how we can you taught us how to do meta? You know, envision the the classical progression of beings, easy, self, mentor, neutral, difficult, all beings. Um, and then the four classical phrases are maybe happy, safe, healthy, live with ease. How would we can you just give us the TLDDR on how we would practice karuna, muda, and so it's interesting.

So with with uh karuna or compassion often times I would use the phrase may I be held in the heart of compassion or may I be held in the arms of compassion but lately I've realized that that you know I can go to a real conceptual place with that. So typically it is a a situation or beings coming to mind and in just bringing to the mind this uh twinge in the heart that happens of wanting to wanting this person to be well wishing this person well comes to mind and that is that that is compassion.

what I'm touching in that moment, I'm I'm touching that person's suffering or I'm touching my own suffering in that moment. And as I'm resting there, that feeling that I have there, that's compassion. I'm saying, "Oh, that's compassion. I actually don't even need a phrase for this. I can sit with that. I can say I can breathe in and out with that. I can know sensations in the body happening as that as that that um I'm not articulating that perfectly well, but it's it's sort of it's it's touching whatever that that situation is.

And it goes from like really being a being able to sit in that and not turn away from it to realize that this is difficult. This this is incredibly hard. And at some point, right, hopefully this moves us into action so that it's not just, oh, I feel for you, you know, but but it's really like I'm I'm really feeling for you. And once this is all said and done, my formal session, you know, over time, then then then what is it that that I can do to help and support?

Sometimes with equinimity, all that I can do is to bear witness. And can I do that without having the shame and guilt of, "Oh my god, I didn't do anything." Sometimes what we can do is to bear witness to another's suffering. And that can be a a hard one. That can be a hard one from folks, you know, because we want to take care of everything. And sometimes there are things that we cannot take care of. Sometimes things are just as they are right in in in in that very moment.

And it doesn't mean that I don't care and doesn't mean that I don't want to do anything. It means in this moment I'm just accepting the reality of this situation. situation. situation. You could do that without phrases. Yeah, it does make complete sense. Um but I'm just curious technically how you do that without the phrases. I maybe my powers almost certainly my power of concentration is a lot less impressive than yours in order to not drift off into who knows what. I kind of need some phrases to connect me to what I'm supposed to be doing that.

Yeah. What what's absolutely that makes sense. So if I'm sitting formally, you know, home or retreat or somewhere else and I'm doing compassion practice. Yeah. That that feeling, you know, I could bring up someone and that could be with me for a while and then you're wondering about lunch or or whatever else is is is going to happen in that moment. And and that is when those phrases can be can be helpful, you know, at sometimes. at sometimes. at sometimes. And I've I've used the phrase sometimes and sometimes it hurts or I've used the phrase I'm so sorry and and it's one of those things where it's like I'm really tapping into and sometimes that that is the the the hand on the heart which when I began this practice was something that would send me running from the room to to actually to actually do that.

And it's and it's and it's and so you know for me at this moment where I am in life now that actually hurts. I can when I do put my hand on the heart and say I'm so sorry. I really I really am feeling that and really and am meaning that and and I think it's important for people to to really again custom customize phrases and use phrases that have a meaning and understanding for you. A lot of people get tripped up on the phrases. They're trying for the perfect phrase or they're trying to create a haik coup or a poem or a song or something something else rather than just one or two really simple words that have a deep meaning for them.

Okay, so that's compassion meditation. A classical phrase you can use in compassion meditation is may you be free from suffering. What about muda or um sympathetic joy? How do you do that one? Mhm. Yeah. So that one typically is I'm using may your joy continue, you know, or may you not be separated from joy and contentment. May your joy increase. I use those. I was working with someone recently who were they were trying to incorporate laughter into and I'm I'm not I haven't been able to make that successful but it to incorporate uh laughter into doing that.

But for me mostly it is bringing to mind. So if I'm bringing to mind a situation of of of someone that is doing well and and quite successful and I manage to not be in a place of jealousy and envy then I can actually say you know may this joy continue may your success continue. and and and and typically typically typically the muda practice I've noticed in my own practice has been more effective or worked well or I've been able to cultivate it more the more that I've been doing meta.

So I often times will roll from my meta practice into joy practice. I'm sort of riding on on that wave because there will be some some feelings of warmth there. That's easy to roll into joy at that point. Me too. Yeah. And the cool thing about Mudito practice is that I can bring to mind somebody even if I'm even I'm I'm actively very jealous, especially if I'm actively very jealous of somebody, I can just do the practice. It doesn't matter whether I'm still jealous. It's like a bicep curl.

It's like just any form of exercise. cuz this is a mental exercise and it's just nudging you a little bit closer to, closer to, closer to, you know, the non-hostility, non-envy that you referenced earlier that you don't have to expect a miracle. It's just a, you know, a messy marginal improvement over time. Yes. Messy marginal improvement over time. That Yes, absolutely. absolutely. absolutely. I like that. Yeah. And that and that's that's what I've seen with the muda practice. And I and you know in my muda practice without a doubt I am surrounding it with all sorts of stories and and humor and joy around it.

I'm really priming the pump in that way. And then when I practice it formally I sit down from that place of sort of recalling these bits and pieces of friends and family and others that that have had u some joy and happiness of late or anywhere down the road. And oftentimes it's actually picturing them and sometimes I like I picture I see that smile or that laughter a little bit of the conversation or something and it's not wallowing and staying in that content like just you know creating a movie out of the content.

It's the initial flash memory or visualization or a little bit of laughter or smile and I sit with that for a while and I see if I can allow that to grow. Sometimes that's you know easier easier done and other times not so much. And let's just to round this out like can you talk about how we can you know what the role of equinimity is in all of this and how we can practice it you know on on the on the cushion. So equinimity for me there's there's a word I like this this translation I don't know I I think I probably heard it from Joseph tatra majaata tatra majaata tatra majaata and I remember it because why why wouldn't you remember tatra majaata standing in the middle of all of this and that's been that's been the most helpful thing in in my practice for me to frame to frame to frame whatever is going on in my own practice in life in the world that word comes comes to mind for me and it's wanting to just pause for a moment and take a look to not I'm not trying to in that moment strategize or figure something out but I'm just pausing in that moment to acknowledge this is happening happening happening this is what is happening right now I'm not creating a story yes that I'm not it's it's a before getting into okay what do we need to do now how do we need to rectify this?

How do we need to change it? It's just there's got to be some acknowledgement and a few breaths and a pause and reflect on this is the reality. This is the present moment experience as it is, right? Rather than have something come to view and immediately we're we're off into fabricating some other kind of stories or or trying to create something else and not acknowledging and being in the present moment. So, so for me equinimity is being in the present moment, sitting there for a while, allowing whatever feelings to come up to be there and just sitting with those for a moment.

The figuring out is going to happen, but can we just sit there for a while, take a look at this, you know, and of course we usually don't want to, right? Because this this oftenimes involves something quite difficult. Um, and we don't want to see it or face it. But I'm like anyone else. I'm not hyped up on experiencing shame and guilt and fear or any of those things. And what I've seen from the practice, what I what keeps me in awe and keeps me quite humbled in the practice is that through mindfulness, through mindfulness, through mindfulness, I have the ability and have the capacity to just be with whatever whatever the feeling is to, oh wow, shame feels like this.

I feel it slightly as a little bit of a fog on the front of the face here, right? Egg on the face. It it like to feel all of those things. This guilt, it's kind of like the, you know, the the the dog with the head down and the eyes looking up. There's that sense of feeling a guilt that's that's there. Equinimity is for me is being with those things. Can I be with this strategizing, figuring out, planning? I can do that after. But let's sit here for a moment in this sit in the fire.

fire. fire. Can you say a little bit more about how we can practice it like what the formal practice would look like to develop this skill? skill? skill? So the formal practice as different things. So often times I've had we would and through the tiknadhan community there was a thing of of uh being rooted like a mountain. So allowing ourselves to sit like a mountain and then we were to bring something forward, bring a situation or being or something that's been difficult and we want to do a formal equinimity practice with.

And so it would be me sort of just being uh solid in my in my posture and being with the breath. And after doing that for a while then it would be visualizing in a sense this challenge or this difficult moment or whatever it is at that time. And for me it is it's and and I'm saying it with a little bit of a a playful spirit. Easy. I actually say the word tatra majata. It's like ah tatra majata. It in right. It pulls me immediately out of this place of uh cuz my mind goes to okay yeah I'm being with this I'm with this I can be with this but I'm strategizing the entire time but if I'm saying that word or okay this is how it is right now or that you know using ajan tomato for me that that that that teaching is is is an equinimity teaching right now it's like this like this like this right Now it's like this.

And that probably the the two little teachings or pith teachings that I use more than anything. Right now it's like this and and and Joseph saying certainty isn't an indication of truth. Those two things are are are I don't know that I need much more than that. For the uninitiated the Joseph that he's referenced a couple times as Joseph Goldstein who's a close friend and frequent flyer on the show. Let me just go back to Tatra Magata. Am I pronouncing that correctly? Tatra Majat. Tatra Majat.

Tatra Majat. Tatra Majata. Tatra Majata. It's like a Tata standing in the middle of Yeah. some sort of um spell from Harry Potter. Yes. Exactly. That that that's and that's how so in my mind that's sort of how I I I sort of how I play with it. You know, if I'm out and about in a day. I mean, I've said this. Have I said it today? I I don't know that I've said it today before we were on, but at some point in time, a few times a week, I actually say this word.

I don't know that I mean, I've probably tried to write it down or write it out at some point in time. I couldn't tell you how to spell it. It's no longer conceptual. When when I'm offering that to myself or to others as a little bit of a mantra, it is referencing or giving the context of can I be with this in this moment? This is the present moment. Can I accept the present moment as it is? is? is? It's like an elevated ancient version of serenity now.

serenity now. serenity now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Abracadabra. Abracadabra. Abracadabra. It's like it's just Okay. Well, so thank you for that tour through the Brahma Vahhares. Let's just go back to meta which you've described which is again love and kindness which you've described as the kind of foundational skill here. Uh can you give us a history lesson? You know I think there's an interesting story of like how and why the Buddha invented meta practice. So this wasn't in the early Buddhist teachings, but in the later Buddhist teaching, there there is a a story that's given as as a mythology that's given as as context of how meta came about.

came about. came about. It's a story of monks, you know, it's typically like 500 monks are going into a forest to practice during the rainy season, what they call the rains retreat. And the modern version of that is a three-month retreat that happens at IMS. So they go into this forest and the the the unseen beings, the forest davas and tree spirits and all of these uh mythological beings and creatures are excited and happy to have them there. And then they're there for a little bit too long as as some house guests can can can tend to be and and the forest beings want them gone.

And so they start creating these horrible smells and sounds and scaring them. And so the the monks decide that they have to go and talk to the Buddha and have him solve this and figure it out. And he tells them to just go back to the forest and keep practicing. And of course they go back and the same thing happens again. So finally they go back to the Buddha and they beg him please allow us to go somewhere else. and he tells them or is now tells them that what the reason that they're unable to practice there um with all of these things going on is that they don't have the protection of meta.

And so he gives them this the meta suta. So this meta teaching he lays out the meta teaching for them and they go back you know having chanted the metasuta and now the forest beings and davas and tree spirits are calmed and soothed by this metasuita and they are calmed and soothed by the metasuta. So then now they're able to practice again. And of course by the end of the story, everyone becomes enlightened. becomes enlightened. becomes enlightened. It's always every Buddhist story. Yeah. Like he holds up a flower, enlightenment.

Uh he says a word, enlightenment. Um okay. So I take from that and it's not the first time I've heard the story, but I take from that that the Buddha invented this really as the antidote to fear. And often times, and that's how I see it. So often times even when I'm talking about anger or hatred or ill will I mean it's I'm ultimately getting down to fear as well. It is the antidote for that. And it does seem to serve as a somewhat of a protection practice as well and and and in in a sense just just as it was laid out in that um mythology.

Yeah. And it is that that suits I don't have that the actual meta suit itself handy to chant but it is one oftentimes rather than use the use phrases when I've been on retreats sometimes my meta practice is actually chanting that metasuta and I chant the metasuta you know again and again and again chanting it over a couple of times a day over a good period of time to the same cultivation and benefit fit as as me chanting or me um offering phrases. Let me get you to say a little bit about the meta suta.

So suta in in Pali and in Sanskrit it's sutra basically scripture. So the meta suta is basically just a a teaching from the Buddha on in this case loving kindness. There are lots of sutras or sutras I mean thousands and pages of of this stuff but this is the one on meta and I I actually have in front of me. So I'll read a little bit of it to you and then get you to talk about it. But here this these are purported to be the words of the Buddha.

This is what should be done by anyone who is skilled in goodness and who knows the path of peace. Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech, humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. It goes on here. I'm going to cut the Buddhist scriptures/sutas can be quite long. I'm going to cut to the part that I want to talk about. Let none deceive another or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill will wish harm upon another. Even as a mother protects her life, even as a mother protects with her life, her child, her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, radiating kindness over the entire world, spreading upwards to the skies and downwards to the depths.

Okay, I'm reading this all to to you because this is a very high bar and it's also, you know, for a a newcomer, um, you know, the the theif the maybe several decades old version of me and you, it's also a little cheesy. So, how are we to wrestle with that? Well, I mean, one, I would say, I mean, that that right off the bat bat day one of a of a retreat or day one of meta for very new people, I probably wouldn't introduce them to this immediately.

this probably wouldn't be something I would introduce them to right off the bat. Um, it is a very high bar and it is it is a very high bar and it is one, right? So, for some people this isn't going to work and and and I think right they'd still be able to to do this practice whether they know the metasuta or not. I like to include it include versions of it and oftentimes enchanting it in poly and not in English. And I think initially for me learning it in poly helped me.

I mean even though I knew the English translation, there was something just in chanting something that had been chanted that has been chanted for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years that um I found quite supportive and endearing. So have have often time to use use it. As far as it being a high bar, it's just we really want to take it in small bite-sized pieces. That is right. That that's aspirational. If we can if we can get there, right, this is the this is the map.

This is the territory that that that we're playing with. But the expectation shouldn't be all of that immediately. We want to just, you know, can we allow it to be something that be can begin to quiet this mind to begin to open this heart just a little bit? Can we, you know, can we start with that easy being? Can we start with the with the pup and the kitty? Can we start there just with that before jumping to anything else? So I oftenimes people will they they'll look at that meta sutu or they'll look at various other things in meta and they will want you know you explain this like how can anyone possibly do this and so I'm really asking them to just okay can we start here right that fire that you have of wanting me to explain this now can give you confirmation can we let's let's cool that fire first with kitty and puppy and self.

Can we let's let's start there. We'll get to the others. We'll get to the others. I mean, you're you're right. I mean, when I first heard it, when I first heard that story, just where my mind was then, do you know how hot my head was? I mean, this is like you would there'd be sweat coming from my head as this is this was how difficult it was for me to hear any of these um stories or or or these teachings. and you know 2530 years later yeah I I I can't imagine not being with uh these teachings and this practice at all.

So as for it being a high bar just a we don't need to be daunted by it. It's it's just a nice north star. It is a high It is a nice north star. It is a high bar and bar and bar and non-ill will non-hatred and okayesseness and okayesseness and okayesseness those are immediately uh possibilities. So we start there. You mentioned the role that this these practices have played in your life and you ran a very interesting experiment last year 2023. Uh, I want to get to that, but I just want to I want to stay with a few more sort of like technicalish technicalish technicalish questions related to meta.

One is, and I think you said this to DJ think you I think you said this to DJ Kashmir, who is the guy who runs this show and and did a pre-in. I think you said something to the effect of mindfulness is not a cure all. Meaning like when people get interested in meditation generally the first thing they're taught is mindfulness which is you know watch your breath be feel your breath coming in and going out every time you get distracted you start again and in that process you develop the capacity to focus a little bit and to get f because and then every time you get distracted you're you're getting familiar with the mind.

So that's mindfulness the the self-awareness. Absolutely. So that's the general thing that you know especially people like me who are out there in the world like popularizing and secularizing these practices focus on however I think this is what you were driving at in your pre-in DJ this is if you focus only on that you are missing out and like the Buddha didn't just teach that he taught other things alongside of like the Brahma viharas like including meta like generosity which you and I are going to get to uh like basic ethical principles.

And so I just would love to get you to say a little bit more about why this theme is so important to you. It is. It's really important to me is I I feel like I've run across a a good number of people that um for uh various reasons, their own current state of mind, psychological state of mind, various things that have happened to them, uh meditation itself, the actual actual inside practice or various types of meditation have been much harder for them to access. and maybe there's particular types of trauma in their background.

But what I have seen other people be able to access has been um generosity or or or or donna or meta. And so often times in my conversations with people um or even in my engagement with students, generosity plays a huge role. and and and and that's not just like financial thing but but sort of generosity of spirit, generosity of being, being being your your your authentic self as well and included in there. So, you know, and I I I the first few folks that I ran across that were dharma practitioners, their p the bulk of their practice was actually practicing meta or chanting the metauta and generosity and that generosity came in the form of cooking for monks and nuns and monastics all over California going to different places.

So, their practice was generosity, their practice was donna. I thought that was quite beautiful and and and practical and helpful and I think we can service is included in that and I think all of those things are a part of the path and the techniques meditative process is incredibly important and it's you know with me and and and what I do and and what I love and and and hope most people can can do that sort of thing. And there are all of these other practices that that we can do as well.

The the the 10 parameies or the 10 uh perfections of the heart or these other qualities of the heart are things that householders, people out and about in the world can uh take a look at. Patience, one of those, generosity, there are a number of meta avenue, loving kindness is one of those as well. But for me being at home, generosity has been key. It's been crucial to my own practice of of of having that at the forefront of my mind being a recipient of of generosity and also generating generosity and and keeping this close to this spirit of service, helping, right?

It's being the helper as well. All all of those things are are included. And you know, and oftenimes get the it's a little bit of a short stick on that, right? I don't know that you're going to get are you going to get thousands of people to sign up for a retreat to serve currently in in society? Probably not, you know, but if you are offering them some meditation techniques that they then believe will help them to a peak experience or flow or feel better or whatever it is, yeah, they'll sign up for that.

And that's important. That's great. I just I I really like to include generosity with what I choose to share with folks. The poly term for generosity is donna d- a na. How could we how could we how can you make that into a practice? How how can you systematize Donna in your life? So, one of the ways that So, one of the ways that that's been helpful to me is just sort of really looking at gratitude. So, so having Donna generosity be the frame of so where can I get in with this?

Where can I oftenimes for me it just starts with where can I help or how can I help? It's th those things and it's been whether it's and oftentimes right it's it's through my teachings it's through students you know meeting with students one-on-one with various organizations of being able to volunteer from time to time you know all of those things have been Donna sometimes it is financial and you know I've had that been the benefit of that of of of running across some a couple of anonymous benefactors folks that have that have that have heard a teaching that that I've given or attended a retreat and decided that they wanted to support me in being able to continue on in that way.

And in doing so, those have been huge acts of of generosity that the impacts the impact that that has had on my life and the life of those immediately around me and students students students has been has been has been invaluable. It's been gigantic. It's been it's it's been a huge thing. And so I've tried to pass that along. Yeah. There was a time when attending any retreat to me was was was a pretty financial hardship for sure. So at times when I've been able to make it easier for someone else then I do.

And I've noticed there's it's been a shift again and this actually like circles back to meta as well. There's been a great shift in my practice by having gratitude and generosity be at the forefront. It always circles back around to meta again. These feelings and sense of goodwill and benevolence and kindness and friendliness arise as I'm receiving and as I'm offering as well and I think right and and the Buddhist teachings bear this out right in the very beginning as he was traveling around. I think one of the things if I'm remembering it was sugata was a a lay woman and this is before the Buddha was the Buddha and he was doing all of these aesthetic practice wild and crazy practices and was just on the the the the verge of death.

Then she provided him it said in the stories provided him with this bowl of milk rice and began which was this great act of generosity. So her providing him with this bowl of of milk rice porridge is what allowed him to have enough strength to actually continue on his meditation practice. Therefore, you know, becoming the Buddha, right? This starts with an act of generosity. So it's it's it's just as important as as as anything else. The best B2B marketing often gets wasted on the wrong people.

I can't tell you how often I'm scrolling and I get served ads for stuff I have no interest in. So, when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over a billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So, you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all major ad networks.

Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/happier. That's linkedin.com/happhappier. from you know the the Buddha to the extent that I've read the sutas sutras scriptures whatever you want to call them he's really talking a lot about the bottom line here being letting go if you want to get enlightened that it's like a radical getting over yourself you are supposed to to abandon or let go of any attachment you let go of any anything you're attached to including your own sense of self what is being nice or being compassionate, being friendly, being generous have to do with that?

Well, I think that the sense of of of letting go, that that sense of uh well, it's just it's I guess it's a little more than than being nice. It's like truly really seeing myself or seeing ourselves as a part of this interconnected web. And so being a part of that is letting go for me. being being nice, being kind, being good is stepping outside of myself. It's allowing myself to not just simply acquire, acquire, obtain, obtain, obtain, obtain, but to let go and to not be attached to this idea that I need to collect everything and everybody that I need to have everything and everybody that I can release.

So, it's this continual releasing of things that being nice and and kind is I mean I I consider that the the teachings that I've received over the years have been my own teachers and mentors being incredibly generous and nice and kind with their with their the dedication of their own practices, right? Their direct experience and learning in their practices that they then bring to the cushion and share those reflections to me. That is generosity. you know, as we say at those at the at at a uh at a retreat setting, you know, so how can I in kind be generous with that?

I mean, the first obvious way is to continue to practice, to continue the teachings. It is to uh serve and volunteer. It is to support my teachers as I can. Like all of those things and all of those things feel at least my experience has been it dissolves a little bit of this this big eye Devon here you know that it dissolves some of that there there there's something that feels like it's released every time I'm in this place of the generous mind really stepping forward.

It seems like that is a let is a letting go. Yeah, that's the sense I'm looking back at many at many uh experiences and that is the experience to me. I completely agree. Yes, that generosity is kind of the easiest. I mean there's a reason why it is sometimes said that the Buddha with some students started at before he even taught them meditation he taught them donna or generosity because what is that if not letting go and then you know you any form of compassion or sympathetic joy or friendliness just kind of flows from that.

Can you tell us about the experiment you ran in 2023 where you did like a year-long meta Donna Jamberee? What was that all about? That that was wanting to actually not be so tied to this identity of Devon the teacher, but but really sort of getting back into continually learning and continually being a student and being really in and of the community rather than separate from it. So I just basically decided to look at the the look at the paramese and was going to place uh generosity and Donna at the forefront of that.

And that all started out with actually having a couple of years before the beginning of the pandemic of having a couple of different benefactors approach me about, you know, saying that they had heard something that that that I had said that they um were in alignment with or was meaningful for them and they wanted to help me out and support me. And they did so. And it was it was life-changing for me. It was absolutely life-changing. that allowed sort of a difficulty or challenge that was always in the back of my mind with you know just practical things that I was unable to take care of unable to support myself in that way.

They made all of that possible with their own generosity. And I decided to extend that to other people, to students around me, to friends and family, and to really dive into quality of of of generosity in any and everything I did. And I was doing it through. So I, you know, I've often spent most of my life living in in San Francisco, the Bay Area. And so I'd given up my car at some point and was just taking, you know, right? I was taking Ubers and taxis all over the place.

And an act of generosity that I was doing and really meta, I mean, they're one and the same in this thing was getting to know the folks that I was riding with because I'd started to notice I'd get in the car, there would be someone that have there would be a Buddha or Ganesha or some bells or something. It was typically an im immigrant, fairly recent immigrant into the country. And I would talk to them about this Buddhist iconography that they had and and it always ended up always I don't know that there was any of these times that were a difficult or challenging conversation but I created a connection and it was actually quite moving moving moving to to to meet just everyday people that had lives in other countries that made their here that were Buddhist practitioners and to talk to them about their flavor of Buddhism and hear them or have them listen to me a little bit and to talk about meditation or to talk about the Buddha or to talk about generosity and oftentimes what I heard from them were bits and pieces of the paramese.

So when they were referencing Buddhism, they were referencing these qualities of patience, these qualities of Donna and generosity, these qualities of loving kindness. And I met some really lovely, beautiful people. and um found myself at some point I was calling on Ubers on Ubers on Ubers just to get in the car to ride with someone to have a conversation with them. them. them. And that that is if you knew where I was 25 years ago, it's like night and day. And I enjoyed it. I thoroughly enjoyed I thoroughly enjoyed being able to get in the car with them.

I thoroughly enjoyed being able to tip as much as I possibly could in that moment to get to the ride to the cafe and invite them in. You know, I got to actually do all of that. What other forms did this year-long experiment take? experiment take? experiment take? I think it it it probably deepened my relationships actually with with family, partner, children, mom and dad, friends. Yeah. I mean, I definitely Yeah. I mean, I definitely quite have quite the snappy, probably sarcastic, dry side that I think probably rubs some of them the wrong way at times.

And I think they probably saw a little a little bit less of that. I kind of like that part of my personality, so I'm not giving it up. But, um, I did I did actually offer a little bit less. And yeah, I think I allowed to just showed them a little bit of um a little bit more of of of of my heart and was directly generous with the number of things that I think was helpful to helpful and supportive to friends and family and folks immediately around me.

Last last question cuz I I'm I know we're almost out of time here, but this is a little technical, but I I I suspect I have in mind people who are skeptical skeptical skeptical about meta or the other Brahma viharas as a meditation practice. But one of the things they're good for these practices, specifically meta, specifically meta, specifically meta, is concentration. And one of the biggest obstacles that people face in meditation is that they're distracted. Focus and concentration are hard, especially now given the way the culture is set up with our phones, etc., etc.

And meta is a a good way to concentrate. There's just no question about it. And it can lead to something called the Janna. J Ha, that's a Buddhist term of art. It's a a state of high concentration or absorption that I have never achieved that is associated with like unbelievable levels of bliss and and whatever allegedly. And so I I wonder if you could just talk about meta as a concentration tool and how and whether it can lead to the Janos and what should we think about all of that.

Yes, meta is a is a concentration practice and just by engaging in meta practice again and again and again consistently with some continuity and definitely I mean if we're looking at something like the genres or or at least those really much deeper levels of of unification of mind or samati gathering the mind leading to something like that. It takes quite a bit of time. It takes quite a bit of time to actually do that. So I think believe probably a lot of folks really get tripped up on that because if it's one of those things and in in my experience and and I am no expert on on this but in gathering the mind I know that if I am really wanting that to happen like if I've heard this could lead to I could be hey man this is the thing this all that other stuff it's good meta good meta good meta it's better than whip hits in the parking lot at a head concert.

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You want that like that experience, come see me. That you're unlikely to experience it. And my experience is you're unlikely to if you're if you're really wanting it that bad, it's going to get in the way. First of all, you're not going to be able to cultivate. I mean, there's so much greed in the mind there. you're not actually going to be able to cultivate meta to really be able to quiet the mind and open the heart to to actually allow that to happen.

I believe the the best way to experience meta and samadei or even that you know getting into that arena would be to just cultivate meta for the sake of meta you know if you have a good amount of time to do so and to really dive in doing so and see what unfolds from that. It's my experience has been if I'm knowing that it's there, knowing that that's possibility is enough. If I'm wanting that to really happen, I have to have this experience. I'm willing to pay more for this experience.

Good luck. Cuz I I haven't my my experience has not been that. And it goes back to that thing. It's like and yeah, and I'm sure there'll people out there that'll Yeah. They they will take take your money for that, right? The dream is free. It's the hustle that's sold extra. We are talking about something that is a very tricky balance for people in meditation. At least it certainly is for me. It is. And I just wrapped up a 10day silent meditation retreat at IMS or the inside meditation society.

I saw you there. We didn't talk because it was silent, but you were I saw you walking around the the the messaul and did I look mindful? Yeah, you did. And one of the things I struggle with is and I and I know I'm not alone in this is the wanting to get somewhere. And the wanting is a barrier. It's like I I listeners may have heard me say this a million times, but meditation is like this up video game where if you want to move forward, you can't move forward.

You have to get the mind into this neutral spot. And one of the things I think about in order to kind of turn the volume down on this desire is this phrase that I think it's from the Buddha, but it's a description of dharma practice generally, which is it's good in the beginning, it's good in the middle, it's good in the end. So you may not make it to the quote unquote end, enlightenment, whatever that means, but it's good no matter what and where and how much you're doing.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's and you know I mean you can help to cultivate some helpful conditions and that's so serve generosity all of those things really help to clear the mind they really help to settle things. All of that clearing and settling is going to serve you well in the meta practice and in your insight practice. Right? If you can really be in that place of knowing and cultivating and understanding, not wanting or letting go, letting go again and again and again and again and again, it'll serve you well.

And then, you know, you have all that letting go and then all of a sudden you, okay, wow, I feel really clear and clean and feel genuine. Okay, now I'm going to go for Janna. And there you go again. Yeah. You just kind of have to stick at it and you know maybe something interesting will happen, maybe it won't. But it's still good. It's still it's still it's still good. It is still very good. I mean there's not I mean having seven or 10 days on retreat to practice in that way.

There are going to be some just lovely lovely lovely moments and they're going to be moments of of hell that you're going to question your sanity that you actually paid for this level of hell. Yeah. that that's going to be there as well. Yeah. Was there was there something you were hoping to get to today or hoping to talk about that we didn't get to yet? No, not anything in particular. Yeah. Just in closing, can you do you have a website or anything that we can let people know about if they were interested in learning more more from or about you?

about you? about you? Yeah, the the easiest way is just add my website, which is my first and last name, d name, d name, d r y.org. I can't guarantee it's updated. it's above my pay grade. Um or you can go to the IMS website and you know it's listed the retreats that I um that I teach and offer there. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, the IMS website is dharma dhar ma.org. dharma.org. dharma.org. dharma.org. Devon, this has been a huge pleasure. Really, it's really nice to meet you in in the form of in the sense that we actually get to talk.

So yeah, I appreciate you doing this. Yeah, absolutely. It's been been wonderful. Um, any opportunity to talk a little bit about meta, more than happy to do so.