A Beginner’s Guide to Mindfulness: Live Event w/ Manoj Dias

Key Takeaway

Practice mindfulness as an attention reset, not another performance task. Today, choose one ordinary activity—walking, cooking, or listening to someone—and repeatedly return to direct sensory experience whenever you notice your mind replaying the past or forecasting the future. If you want a formal entry point, spend five minutes on coherent breathing: inhale through your nose for five seconds, exhale for five seconds, and add a brief pause. The goal is not perfect meditation; it is showing up more present in life.

Episode Overview

Rich Roll and Sri Lankan meditation teacher Manoj Dias explore mindfulness as a way to meet suffering, loosen identification with thoughts, and become more available to the present moment. They challenge the optimization-focused version of wellness, discuss attention, embodiment, identity, sport, and parenting, and close with a guided coherent-breathing and gratitude practice.

Full Transcript

Transcript of A Beginner’s Guide to Mindfulness: Live Event w/ Manoj Dias from Rich Roll Podcast. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Mindfulness doesn't just mean being calm. It means being truly available for the present moment. Manoj Dias, Sri Lankan meditation teacher, founder of the Open app. He is a lively speaker, a humble teacher, and a thought leader in the field of mindfulness. You are not your thoughts. When I heard that, I think it was the first time I experienced mindful awareness. As if he were hearing my thoughts for the first time. All we have is our attention, and where we choose to place it ultimately dictates the course of our lives.

Loneliness continues to increase. Mental health indicators continue to worsen. You don't meditate to be good at meditation. You meditate to be good in life. We're really good at being anywhere but here. When we have to be alone with ourselves, the moment is difficult. If we are not our thoughts, then who are we? And she says: How much time do we have, if you don't mind? Listen to this. Thank you all for coming . I'm happy to see so many happy faces. I'm very excited about this conversation.

Manoj, I think the best place to start is with you advocating for mindfulness. Why should we care about this instead of just talking about blah, blah, blah? We have all heard this word mindfulness for a long time. You know, it had its moment, I think around the 90s, when everyone was practicing mindfulness as a way of dealing with stress. Jon Kabat-Zinn really introduced mindfulness-based stress reduction, and that became the predominant association with that word. Over time, it is becoming many different things. For example, I have worked in different sectors where mindfulness can be the way you perform at work.

It could be mindful cooking . I once saw a workshop on conscious sex and thought, "This is great, but what does this word mean nowadays?" So I'm a little flexible about what it means, but in my case, I come from the Buddhist system; that's how I was born and raised. For me, mindfulness is a way to free myself from suffering. For me, it's a way to overcome the patterns that keep happening in my life, my own neuroses. If people are interested, I think they should be interested in mindfulness.

But I also think it's interesting in a place like New York, which is a bit wild. I've been living here for a year and a half now, and honestly, it's crazy. Yes. And I wonder if I didn't practice mindfulness, would I be okay? Don't know . Yes. Tell us a little bit about your entry point into this, because you're from Sri Lanka, you were raised in this tradition, but it took you a while to realize that you had to develop your own relationship with it. Yes, I think people assume that when they look at me, I have a shaved head and I'm dark-haired, I think she probably meditates .

No, I mean that this was never part of my life. In Sri Lanka, mindfulness and Buddhism are more of a religion, while in the West they are becoming a philosophical practice. So, in my case, I got to this through suffering. That was my starting point. I worked in marketing and advertising. And if anyone has worked in marketing and advertising, they probably know this story. One day I had an anxiety attack. I was trying to figure out what it was because I had never experienced anxiety or a panic attack.

I tried many different ways to fix myself, I went to see psychologists, psychotherapists, I took medication, I took time off, and nothing really helped, until a friend told me one day to go to a yoga class. And don't tell me, this is what I said. I said I didn't have any Lululemon. Can't . Yes. Like he said, "No, no, come on. There are lots of pretty girls there ." That's what he said too. And that captivated me. So I thought, "Okay, I'll go." And there weren't any pretty girls there.

And there was no Lululemon, but there were like five guys over 70 years old. He was a former Buddhist meditation teacher and talked a lot about mindfulness. He spoke of meditation and developing consciousness. And I think that moment was the first time in that class that he said, "You are not your thoughts." He kept repeating it: "You are not your thoughts." When I heard that, I think it was the first time I experienced mindful awareness. I heard my thoughts for the first time. You'll never amount to anything, or you'll always be sick, or what are you going to eat for lunch?

I simply managed to see everything without having to embody every single thought that came to my mind. Why are the Western mind and lifestyle so resistant to mindfulness? Is our self-identification with our thoughts the definition of ourselves? What is the underlying reason that makes it so difficult for our culture to realize the benefits of the lifestyle you advocate? I do n't know if it's necessarily Western culture in general, but I think it's definitely in places that are very metropolitan where there is a lot of industry.

I mean, sometimes I can feel it, like when I get up in the morning to work, to produce. So, I have to perform, I have to be optimized, I have to have this 30-minute morning routine just so I can face my day and go to sleep at a certain time at night and wake up and do it all over again. Well, I think there's a widespread belief that slowness is almost the antithesis of our way of being. And the interesting thing is that mindfulness doesn't just mean being calm .

Actually, it doesn't just mean being slow. It means being truly available for the present moment. I think that when we are available for the present moment, we are much more in tune with what is here than with anxieties, stress, worry, and future thinking, something that I think we are culturally, perhaps in the West, very good at. We're very good at being anywhere except here. And maybe people in the East have figured it out, but then, you know, I see people in Scotland who are quite aware and present.

Yes. It's crazy that the only thing that's truly real is the present moment, which is constantly fleeting, and yet we live our lives persistently, you know, going over things that happened in the past or thinking about what's going to happen in the future. And we are rarely available, to use your word, in the present moment, which is reality. Yes. Yes. And it's difficult, isn't it? For many of us, it's difficult to face reality, because in the moment, in fact, has anyone recently gone on vacation and felt unwell?

Or simply tired? Right? And it is because we are operating at this level of intensity that when we need to be with ourselves, it is very difficult. We are restless and immediately look for an activity to distract ourselves. The one we've been running away from is like , "Hello, I'm here." We've got it with us, exactly. Yes. One of the things you're known for is making these practices, ancient practices, accessible to a Western audience. And I'm interested in the tension there because the way to attract the modern person who lives in a three-dimensional world is to tell them: "This is how to reduce your anxiety.

This is how to improve your relationships. This is how you can be more productive at work." All of this is wrapped up in this optimization language. That's how you get people to pay attention and say, " Oh, I need this." It's a gateway, but that's not really what it's about . I mean , I think it can be, to be honest. I just think it's a very superficial layer of this experience. I believe we have sought ways to integrate mindfulness in a way that is pleasing to society and culture.

And John Cabot-Zinn, whom everyone talks about as the one who was truly able to integrate mindfulness into contemporary culture. And he did it through the lens of the medical system . He said, "If you're stressed, try these techniques." What he didn't add was something like: "Okay, observe your mind as you experience life. Observe the way you behave. Observe the morality. Observe the ethics that surround it." Which isn't as cool as saying, "Do the techniques and you'll feel better," right? If you tell someone to live more ethically , not to lie, not to steal, not to harm anyone, that is much more confrontational.

Well, I think that's how we've introduced it into society, into culture, but then I give the example of eating an avocado with the skin on. It's like it's okay, but not great. But then you peel it, eat the avocado, maybe add a little salt and lemon, I don't know, it tastes much better. And I think that when you delve a little deeper into mindfulness and meditation, that's where the true flavor and the true essence of the practice begin to show. Yes. Yes, perhaps starting with the existential crisis of if I am not my thoughts, who am I?

That may not be the way to attract people. This is what I say. But if we are not our thoughts, then who are we ? And she says: How much time do we have left here? Yes. I'm in...but I think it's a contemplation. And for me, I think the easiest way to explain it to secular audiences is that it's not so much about if we are not our thoughts, then who are we? Rather, we can feel this essence of interdependence among us. I think we focus too much on our individual selves.

That's why hyper-individualism is so prevalent in today's society and culture, but for me it's not so much about me, really. It's more about how I am in relation to my wife, my new friend, and the people I meet every day. How can I move through the world in a way that doesn't cause any harm, but rather the opposite, you know, that cultivates presence, creativity, compassion? I think they are now much more interesting to me than trying to discover my own individual life and spiritual path. Yes.

I do n't know the exact quote, but the Dalai Lama said something like, obviously it's a different tradition, but he said something like the goal of meditation is not to optimize, it's not to reduce anxiety and improve sleep . It's not even necessarily about making yourself a better person. It's about making other people better. Yes. That's a truly beautiful feeling, and it leads us to the idea you mentioned about venerating individualism and understanding that the happiness we lack lies in the service we haven't yet rendered to others.

It's one way of putting it. Yes, but I think if you tell people to do this, you're not going to get any benefit from it . You will be able to serve people better if you do this. Yes, I don't know. Like that optimization. Yes. I'm at the door. And speaking of that, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm interested in optimization. I am an athlete. I know you've worked with athletes. You have worked with NBA players. What has that experience been like, and what benefits have you seen in a sports context with the people you have worked with?

Yes, I think it's interesting when I have the opportunity to work with athletes, whether they are professional soccer players . I'm from Australia, so I'll call them soccer players, not American football players. Or NBA players. The World Cup is currently being held. You have more liberal bandwidth to get your way . Brilliant. It's interesting. Sometimes what occurs to me is: "I have to present this in a way that they will find appealing." And sometimes it's true. Since they have high-performance equipment, I have to be very careful with the language I use.

But ultimately , one lesson I've learned is that whether they are athletes or individuals, older or younger, we are all looking for the same things. We want to be more available to the present moment in its essence. And I think the context in the relationship with athletes is that when they are more available to the present moment, they can access their training. They can access more creativity on the field or on the track. They can let go of mistakes much faster. Therefore, their response time is simply longer.

And that same context can be applied outside of that, right ? If you are present and engaged in this moment, you are not thinking too much about what you did before or what will happen next; you are simply here and there is a natural flow to the experience when that happens. Yes, I think athletes are quite good when it comes to mind-body integration. They understand that this is one thing and are familiar with the state of flow and not thinking, which, you know, is an integral part of their best performances, and trying to be in that place more consistently will unlock better performance, more consistently.

At the same time, I think athletes are also pretty good at turning off the communication their body is trying to send, you know, when their body is trying to tell them something because they can compartmentalize their pain or they can block things out. And I wonder if that has ever come up. That could end up being a blockage. As if I couldn't deal with any of that because I have to do this right now. Close that communication. Yes of course. It's funny. Um, one of my favorites.

By the way, I'm a big fan of Rich Roll. So it was like a big moment for me when Rich said he wanted to talk to me. Um, one of my favorite conversations of yours, I think it's with Dr. Ellen Langer. Mhm. And she talks about one of the many conversations I think you've had with her. But one of the conversations is about decision-making and how much of it is like a mindset. You know, I'm not going to do her any favors by quoting what she said, but I think there are two schools of thought, to be completely honest, because interoceptive awareness is important.

I think it's important in the context of athletics, but it's also important outside of it. And I think it's interesting how we respond to that. So, you know, Ellen Langer, am I saying her name right? Yes, Dr. Ellen Langer. Yes, yes. By the way, she's a boss. Yes. Yes. You know, she says it's simply a decision. As if we were capable of doing much more than we believe we are capable of. I believe there are times when we really need to listen to our bodies and be smart about how we respond to them.

Perhaps slowing down to accelerate is an option instead of pushing yourself as hard as David Goggins and being able to do incredible things. But for the average person, I think it's for the average athlete, and I consider myself a very average athlete, I think it's important to listen to my body because there were times when I used to play semi-professional cricket in Australia. Oh. I do n't know if you know what cricket is, but that was my area of expertise. And then there were many times when I just didn't listen to my body and I injured myself, yeah, you know.

Her most famous quote, from Dr. Ellen Langer, is "Stop worrying about making the right decision and make the right decision." And I think what she's saying between the lines is that your intuition, your heart's intelligence, knows what's right, and when you make that decision quickly , it actually comes from that place in your heart that knows what's right for you. But in our culture, we rely too much on the mind, and that's why we want to go around in circles and do all the risk assessments , and you know, well, if I do this, then this other thing is going to happen.

And all she's saying is that we're not actually terrible predictors . We don't know what's going to happen, so it's much better if you trust this. And this is an important part of your work: this integration of mind and body has a lot to do with our culture of turning this off, so that we can listen to it more and learn to trust it. And value it equally, I suppose. Yes. Yes. I think so. For me, it's not necessarily about turning it off, but about knowing how to use it more effectively, how to use it more intelligently.

Yes. And I think we don't listen to our bodies and we don't know how to interpret those signals. And then, often, what we do is react. We don't answer, do we? As Ellen Langer said, we have a very strong negative bias. Therefore, if we do think about things, they are usually the worst. We are always predicting the worst possible outcome. Therefore, if we leave it in the hands of the mind, then we are just fear-based animals . But for me, it's more like listening to the signs.

It's about being able to endure any discomfort, which I know you're very familiar with as an endurance athlete. Like being in the mud, per se, and not letting it defeat you . Yes. And then use your mind to know that, well, this is an ephemeral experience. I've been through this before. I've trained for this. I can go further. Well, I think what I advocate is more this balanced relationship between mind and body. Yes. You mentioned earlier that your mindfulness tradition, which comes from Sri Lanka, has its roots in religion.

We live in a secular culture. I'm curious to know what you think about the explosion of the wellness movement, the explosion of mindfulness centers and programs , meditation apps, and athletic clubs. In my opinion, all of these are things to celebrate. People are concerned about these things in a way that, you know, they haven't historically, and that's a good thing. But it is also a replacement for religion on a certain level. This well-being is a secular religion. And it has become a kind of " choose your own adventure".

In other words, I'll take this from this and this from this when it suits me. How do you think about that in terms of your teaching and trying to guide people around these principles? Yes, that's a great question. I mean , I've been teaching for a long time, for about 20 years. You know , when I started teaching, everyone thought I was very strange. And they would say, "Oh, that's the kind of person who does meditation." They said in Australia. My parents had a heart attack because I quit my marketing job to become a meditation teacher.

So it was something I didn't tell people. I thought, "Oh, I teach." But I think what's happening now, and I regret what I 've learned over the years, is that I've had to modify my language to make it more accessible . In the previous organizations I founded, we couldn't use the word spirituality because we thought it had connotations and that people would get scared and no one would come. So it revolved a lot around performance, optimization, and protocols. That was the language we used to use.

But, in recent years, I began to feel an internal discontent with the sector I was in. Because he saw the sector itself growing. I believe the wellness sector is currently valued at $6.8 trillion . And yet, loneliness continues to increase. Mental health indicators continue to worsen. And I think we are at a moment where there is a genuine crisis of conscience. What is real? What is true? What is ethical and moral? And all those things, combined with the rise of AI, the fact that algorithms control our lives right now, and the wars that are ravaging us, create almost the perfect storm for something like religion to return, right?

And this has a good side and a bad side. I believe that religion has been declining over the last 40 years . And, interestingly, as religion declines, more people identify as spiritual, but not religious. Interestingly, in the last six or seven years, that figure has begun to stabilize. And in the last two years, I think, we're seeing a slight uptick in people returning to religion, which I find fascinating. I think it all boils down to this crisis of conscience. But what we've replaced religion with is because we still want the things religion gave us, right?

We want to come together in communion. We want to focus on certain people. That's why I think podcasters have replaced pastors and others, because people want to believe in something. People want to follow a protocol because it gives them that sense of security and direction, similar to the Ten Commandments or the Eightfold Path of Buddhism, all those different things. And we want to feel safe surrounded by people who share a similar vision to ours. That's why running clubs are going crazy. Last year in particular, Strava said that running clubs quadrupled in just one year.

Yes. And we're seeing it, I think we've seen it on TikTok recently, how people are returning to church to meet their boyfriend or girlfriend. That 's great. Why not? Try everything else. But I think that's what people are looking for right now. Yes. This episode is brought to you by Airbnb, which I use all the time because I travel all the time. And now that I'm back from back surgery and very focused on my fitness and nutrition, it's even more important that the place I stay is equipped with a good kitchen to prepare my own meals and is also close to a good gym; which means that for me it's practically Airbnb at all times, including the trip to Washington D.C.

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Maybe I go to this church for communion, but I also go here for my breathwork and I go here for my yoga class and I have my running club and then, you know , I go to Manoj for mindfulness. One of the interesting things about you is that you have consolidated meditation, mindfulness, and breathwork. How do these things differ? How do they work together? How do they integrate with each other, and why should they be practiced as a single unit instead of being segmented in the way we think about them?

As you know, we always want to put things in boxes, you know, and separate everything like our social media, I guess. Yes, that's a great question. I think that , in my case, what I've really tried to take charge of over the last 18 months is that I believe everything is spiritual. And she used to be very shy about saying it. I say, "Oh, I don't want to use the word spiritual. Instead, I use mindfulness." And what I mean by spiritual is that I feel this interdependence with everyone.

How I feel it. Even with all my algorithms pointing me towards this division. As if I were trying to open my field of consciousness, my heart, as much as I can , to everything that is happening here. And so, if I think of everything as something spiritual, I believe there are many ways to cultivate that level of spirituality. So I don't need to simply sit and meditate as a way to connect with my body. I can dance. So dance has been a very important part of my life for the last 3 or 4 years and now it's a practice that I lead and teach.

I believe that music is universally spiritual, and I think we are now seeing the power of sound and how it affects brain wave states and HIV and all that kind of stuff. So music has the ability to connect us with something much deeper. And then there are other things like genuine moments of connection with another person. As if for me they were inherently spiritual because they are rare and I feel that there is no me and this other person at certain times. I feel like I'm so immersed in this moment.

Like, you know, like what Rich says, because I've had that experience and there's a kind of symbiotic dance in that moment that I find very spiritual. So, for me it's all of that. It's basically meditation. There's also this idea of segmentation. It's like doing my mindfulness practice or my meditation or my breathwork. I have my morning routine and after that I continue with my daily life. When it's really about how you carry all this awareness throughout the day. It's not something you do and stop doing and then live the same way; your body and your mind are not two different things.

This is an integrated idea to keep you alert for longer. Yes. Yes. Yes, I mean, as Sharon Salzberg, one of the great mindfulness teachers, used to say, you don't meditate to be good at meditation. You meditate to be good in life. Yes. And I think all these techniques are just techniques unless they point us toward something. I don't do breathing exercises to be good at breathing. I don't meditate just to be a better meditator. I want to get to know myself better . I want to feel more connected in this life.

And all of those are expressions that we can cultivate through these moments. Well, you know, another friend of mine once said, " Yeah, I meditate for an hour every day, but then I'm an idiot the rest of the day. Like nothing's going on here." So I think I hope we're entering a time where we move beyond techniques, because techniques can be packaged and sold, right? What is most difficult to sell is a way of seeing the world. And I think I hope we get to that point.

Yes, speaking of techniques, Manoj will guide us through a practice in a moment. Before we do that, what is the most common misconception people have about mindfulness, breathwork, or meditation that you encounter in your classes? It's a new experience. And I'll explain it to you. So when people tell me, "Hey, I've tried meditating. I can't do it." I say, "But you're already aware." And they say, "No, I'm not. " I have never sat down, I have never meditated. "I say, 'So, do you like to cook?'" And they say, 'Yes, I love to cook.' "I say, 'Tell me how you cook.'" He says, 'Well, cut things out, blah, blah.' "I say, 'Well, while you're cutting those things, you use your hands, right?'" I say, 'Yes.' "He says, 'Well, then you feel the texture of the food and the products.

Do you smell the food before serving it to someone?'" And they say, 'Yes'. "I say, 'Well, your senses are involved in this experience.'" And that is a conscious experience. It's the same as when you run, right? You 're running, you feel all the sensory stimuli that occur at that moment, whether it's your foot on the pavement, your breathing, or if you notice your thoughts telling you to stop . That's all mindfulness. But if you want to take it to meditation, you evolve it a little. But if you don't , if you don't like meditation, then cultivate those same qualities when you talk to someone.

Or you're about to go to sleep, when you try to work and suddenly a thought pops into your head and you say, "Well, my attention is here. Can I bring myself back to my senses and be present in this moment?" " Yes, it took me a long time to realize that there's no wrong way to do it, because when you realize your mind is racing, you become aware of it and you 're paying attention. And the more I do it, the more I appreciate the value of attention.

Like all we have is our attention, and where we choose to put it ends up dictating the trajectory of our lives. And we don't really consider or value it the way I think we should. And the more I do it, the more aware I am of where I put my attention and why. Yes. I mean, I'd love to hear, from all your experience and the people you 've spoken to, what have you learned about mindfulness and meditation? That everything I feel like I don't have and aspire to have is available to me in the present moment.

Because when you're present, there's no lack. It's like everything is okay. Mhm. And even if that's a very fleeting experience, being able to go back to that, and the more consistently I can go back to that, you kind of realize that it's okay, you know, life is pretty good." You know? But then you pick up the phone and think , "Oh, [ __ ]." "A new shirt." I know. I know. Why does that guy have that? Yeah. Let's open it up to questions. No, thank you so much for the conversation .

I was wondering, since you both have a sporting background and, uh, with so much context, I was wondering what you might have to say about the whole obsession around peak performance and mindfulness. But also, especially for you, Rich, since you're sort of an optimizer, maybe you could mention what's so beneficial about peak performance? Well, my definition of peak performance has evolved, I guess I could say that. I mean, I've gone through many stages in life where I had a limited definition of peak performance in a sporting or professional context.

Like, I knew how to focus on a goal and plan everything out and just move towards it to try and get the most out of my body in a physical context or my mind in a professional or intellectual context. And now I'm at a stage in my life where peak performance for me means, how can I be more available? How can I really enjoy this amazing life I've built for myself instead of just running around kicking the bucket? Do I feel stuck, resentful, and, you know, stuck in the past or the future?

These things don't come easily to me. I have a certain program running in my mind that creates intractable patterns of behavior that don't serve me. And I've embarked on this journey to untie those knots and see what's underneath them. And meditation, mindfulness, and some other practices have been instrumental in that. And what I've discovered is that there's so much more to life than my very narrow view of what it means to not only be a successful person, in quotes, but what it means to live a happy life.

You know, that's a strange concept, and ideas like happiness have always seemed indulgent to me, or something that's okay for other people and that I want for other people, but that isn't necessarily important to me. And now these things are important to me. What's the point of all these things I've done and all the hard work I've done and the service I've done on behalf of other people if I can't enjoy this life, if I 'm not available to give and receive as much unconditional love as possible?

For me, peak performance is It's really a measure of my capacity to love. It's taken me a long time to get there, and I'm not very good at any of this. I have a lot of growth and learning ahead of me. But it's been a beautiful kind of unfolding that I'm currently immersed in. You should have a podcast. That's... Well, yes. I mean, I wouldn't have had anything else but that, but I think... Peak performance is what people usually find in things like mindfulness. Because it's one of those things where you're trying to get somewhere, right?

You're trying to get to the optimum place. And I think everyone gets to a point where they think, "Oh, I'm never going to get there." Yes. As if there were nothing else to optimize. There's nowhere else to go, but it's like an endless hamster wheel where we're just chasing our own tails. So, I think it's a great entry point for people like us, but I don't know, maybe for me, I don't think it's destiny. Yes, I mean, you need those entry points. You need those portals.

I joined a yoga class shortly after I quit drinking, back in 1998, because that's where all the pretty girls were, and I ended up meeting my wife there. So I achieved that goal. And I became interested in meditation and mindfulness so that I could reduce my anxiety, so that I could unleash a higher level of performance within myself. And everything was very goal-oriented, and I needed that at that moment. And trust in the person you're working with is like, "Okay, let's open the door for you." "And then , once you start doing this, you'll embark on your own journey with it.

And if you continue on that journey, at some point, you'll realize there's something to this idea of ​​transcending goals altogether and just trying, you know, to capture those fleeting glimpses of true presence. But until you experience those moments, they're ephemeral. You know, it's very difficult; you can't explain something to someone else, that it's something you should aspire to have more of in your life, until you 've experienced it yourself. Not all creatines are created equal, which is why I'm here reminding you once again why I trust Momentous and why I take their creatine specifically.

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It's completely risk-free with a money-back guarantee. 30 days, so you can try it out and see how your body responds. I love the outdoors, but I admit that since I started driving my Rivian, I find myself making even more time to get in and take it to places where I can have real experiences. I recently got to drive an R2 with RJ Scaringe, the founder and CEO of Rivian, and we talked about how this isn't by chance. How does that idea of ​​how we're creating this completely seamless connection with the outdoors through a car that, by definition, has to insulate you from the outside world relate to this?

And how do design choices influence that perspective? If you're in this car, you should feel that if you want to go somewhere and explore, take a hike, or stay out a little later, it 's there. It's just a little nudge to tell you it's okay to explore. Yes. Seek out the unknown. The front trunk has a drain plug for that. In the back, the window on this car is a really cool feature because it allows you to put a surfboard or your gear in the back.

It's all these little things that, you know, are features. And they're there on their own; they might not be everything, but if you put them all together, you should feel like it's a product made for someone who wants to live a life full of adventure. To see the rest of our conversation and learn more about the R2 and the places it can take you, visit stories.rivian.com/richroll. Thanks, Manoj and Rich. This has been great. I was really curious to hear what you mean by interoception and the bridge between performance and mindfulness because I see two different fields.

From a performance-based perspective, there can be a suppression of that interoception because the show must go on. And especially from a young age, if you learn that you need to suppress these parts in order to perform and do what you need to do under that pressure, that's one thing. And then the other end with mindfulness, and even if you approach it from the perspective of seeing symptoms as messengers and trusting yourself, whether it's anxiety, depression, or pain, I feel like interoception and felt sense are a really important way of feeling things, of regulating yourself, of tuning in.

with the place you're in , to heal, especially from a trauma-based approach . That's why I'm curious about those two, performance and mindfulness, that intersection with interoception and how, maybe, if you're an athlete, you learn to feel again and trust yourself in that way when maybe for years it was all about repression, numbness, and just moving on. Yes, it's a great question. We've touched on this before, but the funny thing is that all my years, the number one profession, the people I see are dancers. Former dancers, people who have had dance careers because, you know, they've had to work with their bodies for a long time, and then, you know, when they quit or retire, then it's a different relationship with their bodies that they try to develop.

And I think from a performance perspective, you definitely have to have the quality of interception, but then have the mindset to be able to choose how you respond in that moment. For example, I work with an NBA team, and with the NBA team, it was like, "Okay, notice when your heart rate starts to..." to accelerate a lot. "So have that interoceptive awareness of what's going on, and then apply a breathing technique that can calm it. Okay , so I do a similar breath to the one we practiced.

Okay, my heart is racing before I shoot this free throw, let me take a few minutes to regulate it. Sometimes we have to have that awareness and say, ' Okay, I have to shoot anyway .' Right? We don't have the ability to regulate ourselves in that moment, but that's what the highest-performing teams in some of these great organizations actually do. They help people develop this awareness and then find methodologies to be able to cope with it. And I think from a trauma perspective, it's slightly different.

I don't think you can even compare the two things when you're working with trauma. Because so much of the literature, the recent literature on trauma, is about the ability to actually face the trauma and let it surface and value what we feel and what we don't feel; so it's almost a completely different thing, but I think it's related. Yes, ultimately, the place you want to get to is not having It's not about suppressing anything. It's about being able to, uh, you know, be aware of those past experiences, uh, but, uh, maintain your equanimity because you've healed them or made peace with them or changed your story about them, right?

I mean, it's not like, I have to suppress this so I can be really good here. It's more like you're playing a shell game with a short fuse because, you know, those things are going to come out and show their face in a not-so-good way otherwise. Yeah. I mean, I've never run a marathon. I've never run more than 3 km , but I'm curious, uh, you know, when you're running and you get those stories and those internal cues about how to stop and how you deal with that.

Do you just keep going or do you just wait? The easy answer to that is that you just break it down into the shortest path, like, "Okay, I just have to get to the next lamppost" or whatever, which is a shorthand way of saying that the more present you are In your experience, you'll have less to worry about. You don't worry about "I have to get here." It's more like saying, "Okay, I can handle the pain right now ." Now is a new time . I can handle it now, and I can handle it in this moment.

And that's how you do anything. As you know, you don't change your life, you don't make any changes other than little things, those small adjustments you're constantly making. And I think we think of change and transformation, or " I want to change my life," as broad strokes and, you know, as bold proclamations. But the real arithmetic is in these tiny adjustments that are micro and are made anonymously, and they're not sexy or romantic or anything noteworthy. Yes. And it's about being present and being aware of what's happening to you in the moment.

What's next that you're going to do? Yes. It's not about what you're going to do when you wake up tomorrow. It's more like, what are you doing right now? Where is your attention? What is your behavior? How can you show up better in this moment? How can I be more present in this experience? How can I not get caught up in thinking, "Is this working? Are they happy?" But just like knowing that the value of Whatever is happening here is really a function of how present I'm able to be with you right now .

Yes. Yes, thank you. Yes. For each of you, whether you're training for a marathon or just maintaining your regular mindfulness practice, when or if you reach a point where you no longer get that reward or value or result from that action, but it's something you want to maintain and need to keep going, how do each of you approach returning to a point where you get the reward or feeling that drew you to that practice in the first place or is the reason you kept it up?

Meditation isn't fun, first of all . Like nobody meditates because they enjoy it. Like I don't meditate because I enjoy it. What I enjoy is how I change as a person, how I can be more present in my life for the people I love and care about. Ultimately, that's the reward for me . And even now, like 22 or 23 years of practice later, I still don't want to meditate when I wake up in the morning. It's like a struggle. I think, "Oh, maybe I just I want to see what's on Instagram today only.

" Today only." And then, uh, yeah, that pisses me off a bit. Oh, sorry. Can I swear? I suppose so. Uh, yeah, so I see it as something for maintenance and health, like brushing my teeth. That's how I reconcile it in my mind. I don't wake up and debate with myself about whether to brush my teeth. I just know that everyone will appreciate it much more. And in the same way, I think of meditation as one of those things that the world will appreciate much more, even if it's crap.

I wish I could say it's non- negotiable. I do business with her far too often. Completely. I'm going to double down on the spiritual aspect and ask you, can you truly know your true self without a spiritual practice? What have you learned about that throughout your journey? Yes, I love this. I could talk about this for hours. Uh, no, I mean, I think the self is constantly evolving, right? As the version that I think this is where in my education I began to truly understand, learn and accept the fact that who I am is constantly evolving.

That's why I'm always very curious about that version of myself. It's never like I've discovered who I am. It's as if I am who I am right now. I am showing compassion for the parts of myself that I don't like, that I don't love. I am truly accepting these things that are happening and I am not running away from life. I think that's a really important part of my spiritual practice, not running away from it. And to face each moment as it is and not as I really want it to be because for a large part of my life my suffering was due to things not turning out the way I wanted.

So I tried to change myself to deal with those things instead of just being able to deal with them as they are and find curiosity, openness, and compassion for those parts. And I believe that this is directly correlated with my way of practicing. And right now, I'm about to have a baby, not me, but my wife. And then I thought, "Oh, how can I meditate?" And that's giving me a lot of anxiety right now. And maybe you can give me some advice on that, actually. But no, it's just about having continuous curiosity about this version of me, and that version of me that aligns with how I want to live ethically and morally.

I think that's what I'm learning over time, which is almost as important as my meditation practice. Thank you both very much. This has been great and thank you for the breathing exercises. Rich, I've been following you for some time now and it seems like you started out focusing more on ultras and endurance. As you get older, I mean, you change course when you need to or feel like it, it seems. And you've gone from writing a diary to meditating and continuing to swim and race and all that.

It seems like there's always somewhere else to move to, and I feel like a lot of people get stuck. I'm going to do a marathon, and I'm going to do a marathon and another marathon, but you've opened my eyes to so much more. The guests you've had have done incredible things, and it's so inspiring to see that there's more out there. So, thank you. And as you get older, I love that you keep bringing more to the table, and every year there's so much more. So, thank you for showing that longevity is there and open, and my parents are both Ironmen, and I'm like , oh my God, I have to keep up with them .

But I keep up with you, and there's always something more to do. So, is there something you think is most helpful, or is it the mindset of not closing one door, or just opening other doors that's most helpful, as you move forward, or is it your support system? I just find that you seem to have the key. And I know you always like to bring it back, like you're saying, "No, it's not me, but you have the key to something that helps others." So, thank you .

Well, thank you. Thank you for your kind words . I promise you I don't have the key. I definitely don't have the master key. But I think the best way to answer that question is related to the previous question and has to do with knowing yourself. I got into endurance sports not because I wanted to get on a podium or stand out. I used it as a spiritual journey to understand myself better. I was very confused about my life, and that ability, like that time alone on the trail, I used to mistake for meditation.

I think now it's a kind of active meditation. But that stillness and that connection with my body, I desperately needed to work through, like, who, who am I ? And what, you know, who, what do I want to be? And what do I want, ex-what is important to me? Like I was asking myself questions. I had never asked myself those things before, and it turned out that endurance was like a vehicle to undertake that exploration. And then, when I combined that with my very goal-oriented, intellectual mind , I was able to do some interesting things that seemed to interest other people.

But that was the real goal. It was a journey to To get to know myself better. And what I discovered after going through that experience and other experiences I've had in my life is that, in the Buddhist context, knowing yourself is about alleviating suffering. What causes our suffering? It's our attachment to our identities. The notion of self is really just an illusion. It's a construct. It's a story we tell ourselves and other people about who we are, which makes us feel grounded and secure in a universe of uncertainty.

Otherwise, we would be thrown off balance and wouldn't know what to do with ourselves. We wouldn't be able to function. So, there is an evolutionary justification for it, but fundamentally it's an illusion, and being aware that the self, or who you are, or how you define your identity, is nothing more than a story, and it's a story over which you have power. It's a story you can rewrite to suit your needs. And the more you can detach yourself from that attachment to who you are—" Well, I'm this person," you know— like I have that silver medallion status in my Delta, you know?

You know, it's like all these things we do to feel comfortable and like we belong, like we want to belong to the group. We don't want to be left out. Like all these things have, you know, an important function in our lives, but they also serve to create a lot of suffering. And if you can detach yourself a little bit and realize that this story is just a story I'm telling, like, by telling this story, you free yourself from the limitations of your identity that hold you captive, and it allows you to grow, explore, and be curious about who else you could be without feeling burdened by, like, "Well, that's...that threatens, like, this notion of who I am." And that's allowed me to walk a little lighter and say, "Well, you know, it's okay.

Well, I just had spinal fusion surgery. It's like, I don't know if I'll ever be an endurance athlete again. Oh my God, who am I going to be if I'm not an athlete?" "Well, God , the universe, my higher power, clearly, uh, they say:" Dude, you gotta stop. As if...As if...I've been trying to tell you that you need to be more still. You can't stay still with yourself for even a minute. You're always running away from your emotional discomfort. So I'm going to break your back and force you to lie down." And instead of regretting it or being resentful, like, "Oh my God , I can't, blah, blah, blah." What a brilliant and beautiful opportunity for discovery.

What if I went into this and didn't treat it as a burden or a setback, but as this incredible gift? How many people manage to pause in their lives and simply stop and say, " What happens when I'm just here and can't run away? What can I learn about myself?" And by taking advantage of these new opportunities and not considering them threats, it doesn't matter if I do something again in the context of resistance. It doesn't matter if tomorrow I decide I'm not going to be a podcaster.

I think people get trapped in these identity silos, and I see it time and time again, and I see it in Ironman and in marathons, it's like people change their lives. They discover they are running their first marathon or doing an Ironman and it's like the lights go on for them; They have an epiphany and are transformed forever in a very positive way as a result of these experiences. They become evangelists. Now everyone has to do an Ironman because, look what it did for me, isn't it incredible?

But in the end they stagnate and think, "I have to do more Ironmans, I have to run more marathons," and they are hindering their growth. It's as if they stagnate in their growth and don't realize that "I've learned 95% of what I'm going to learn with this experience, and there's a universe of other experiences available to me if I'm willing to let go and hold on to this." And to understand that change and transformation are not something that happens only once, like: "I have changed and now I have changed." It's a relationship we're in .

It's a lifelong relationship. And accepting it, that is, what is the next change I need to make? And you know, it's never easier to change and transform, to take countermeasures and step out of your comfort zone. It's like all of that is awkward, you know? But moving towards that instead of going backward and locking ourselves into our identity, like "I do this and this is who I am and I vote for this person", has been very liberating for me. So I spent a lot of time thinking about that.

And I think that's why I've been able to simply feel: "Well, I'm doing this and now I'm doing that. When I started doing it, I was very interested in this, and now I don't really care. I'm talking to Manoj and I want to know about the nature of consciousness and what reality is." That 's much more interesting than asking something like, for example, "what do you usually have for dinner tonight?" Thank you. Thanks so much for the conversation, guys. I wanted to give special thanks to Rich, whose book and podcast have been a source of inspiration to me over the years.

I came to the US city in 2020. I didn't have a job. My wife was working and I was running around like crazy. After reading your book and listening to your podcast, I ended up running a few ultramarathons. It helped me a lot. And it took me on a journey that, as you said, made me discover myself and the potential not only of my body, but also of my mind. But now I'm in a situation that could happen to many people who practice endurance sports. I have two babies.

Right now, I find it quite a challenge to continue meditating, to find those specific spaces throughout the day to do it, and at the same time, to continue pushing myself to the limit in the practice of various endurance sports. Life changes when you have children. I have two young children and it has undoubtedly been a great challenge for my life and my experience of endurance. Well, I was wondering if you have any advice for new parents. Those who would like to continue finding those spaces and...

Oh, yes. This is a good time for you. I'm listening. I take notes. I 'm no parenting expert, believe me. In my experience, your children become your best teachers. And the more aware you are of it in the present moment, the more beautiful the experience of parenting will be for you . And they are mirrors of all your character flaws, weaknesses, and frailties. And you simply can't get away with anything once you have your children. And that is beautiful and also challenging. But God or the universe doesn't give you what you 're not prepared for, and I wouldn't trade being a father for anything; It has been the most beautiful experience I could imagine, which continues to give me so much and at the same time continues to be quite a challenge for me.

So accept it instead of thinking, "Well, when I'm a father, I won't be able to do certain things or I'll have to compromise my plans," avoiding that negative perspective. The world is abundant and the experience of being a parent will bring more abundance into your life, so don't see it as an invasion of your favorite hobbies or anything like that. See it as this gift of abundance that will take you on a journey you can't possibly imagine. I think that's all the time we have. I think I want to end by simply saying thank you to Rivian and House Rivian for organizing this.

I can't think of any other brand that's more in line with the conversation we just had because Rivian is all about connecting with nature and connecting human beings with each other by removing the obstacles that stand in the way of adventure and living life to the fullest. And the more I delve into mindfulness and meditation, the more I realize that's what it's all about . Life is this journey and this adventure, and I just want to experience it to the fullest. And the things that Manoj teaches and preaches are truly the path to that.

So , if Manoj is new to you or these ideas he talks about, this is your first point of contact with them. I implore you to immerse yourself deeply in their world and review their offerings. So, have you opened the app, or is it like it no longer exists, or where people could learn more about you ? Is that over? Yes, yes, that's old news. But yes, you should definitely look for them. They're great. Don't know. I'm really bad at this part of the conversation, but I'm launching a publishing platform .

It's called Gentle Noise. It is for people who are curious about spirituality and contemporary culture. So, if that's your case, it's a kind of non- dogmatic editorial, a podcast, all that kind of stuff. So tune in. Should we have you guide us through a practice? You're already there. Yes, is that great? Would you like to practice? Well, I think a very important practice is our ability to... People get very obsessed with this when we talk about HRV, like heart rate variability. And people make a big deal out of it , even though, honestly, I don't think it's that important.

But there is a breathing technique you can do for 5 minutes a day that I personally discovered also helps with sleep. If you have trouble sleeping, Oura Ring will give you very good sleep scores . Speaking of optimization . But it's also a very good practice that helps us predict our ability to cope with stress, right? Throughout our lives. And sometimes it's used to predict our overall health. It's a very simple practice. It's called coherent breathing. Inhale for five seconds and exhale for five seconds. I like to add a short pause between each repetition.

I think it's nice. Don't know. Well, maybe we'll do a few rounds of that. Yeah? And so, for this, with functional breathing, which is this technique, you should use your nose to breathe. When you do other types of breathing exercises, you can use your mouth. But with the practice of functional breathing, you use your nose . Because? It is generally healthier. It's a better way to breathe. Filter it, especially when you inhale a lot of smoke from Canada. Thank you, Canada. It helps filter out some of that substance, but it also has other additional benefits.

For example, if you breathe a lot through your mouth, it can make you more tired. It also tends to become much more tiring over time. And there is some emerging research on how the shape of the face changes. So, if you care about appearances, those who are out there. Well, a very simple technique. I will guide you. First, relax in whatever position you are in. Yes, just shake your body. Do it. That feels good. They've all been sitting and listening to us for a while. Just shake it up .

In fact, shake your hands too. Yes. Nobody is watching them. Everyone is looking at me and Rich. Just shake it up. Good. And then just shake your shoulders. Perhaps your legs will tremble. They might raise the outer edges of the mouth a little. Actually, it's very beneficial for the jaw. Yes, do one of those. Do it again. Yes ok. I love that. And then simply relax your body. And if they feel comfortable doing so, they can close their eyes. If not, simply let them soften gently.

And I want you to start by inhaling slowly and deeply through your nose. And then, as you open your mouth to exhale, let something out. Whatever. And then, through your nose, inhale for five, four , three, two, one. Exhale, five, four, three, two, one. Pause. Inhale 4 3 2 1, exhale 4 3 2 1. Inhale. Exhale. Inhale. Exhale. One more, like that. And then, with your eyes closed, I want you to remember someone in your life for whom you are grateful. Visualize that person as if they were here with you now.

While you visualize that person, I want you to reflect on why you are grateful for them. What has it shown you? What has it taught you? And then take a moment and reflect on something in your life that you are grateful for. Perhaps the security of your home. The clean water you drink. Or what you do in the world. Or something that makes your life easier, better. And finally, please remember something about yourself that you are grateful for. What have you overcome? What have you given?

And this part is usually the most difficult . So take this brief moment and reflect. What am I grateful for in myself? And take a deep breath. And then open your mouth, let something out. When you're ready, you can refocus very slowly. And when you're ready, you can open your eyes. Is there anyone who doesn't feel better? Exact. Great, man. Thank you so much. Thank you , Rivian. Thank you all. To everyone. Thank you for coming today. Thank you.

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