86-Year-Old: “You Are Living a Life That Isn’t Yours (Here’s How to Know)” | Dr. James Hollis

How do you define a life of meaning? How do you define a life of meaning? >> This is a good question. I think meaning >> This is a good question. I think meaning >> This is a good question. I think meaning is not something we go out and find as is not something we go out and find as is not something we go out and find as if it's uh hiding somewhere in Brighton if it's uh hiding somewhere in Brighton if it's uh hiding somewhere in Brighton or something. meaning rises out as an or something. meaning rises out as an or something. meaning rises out as an experience when whatever is going on experience when whatever is going on experience when whatever is going on within us or whatever we're relating to within us or whatever we're relating to within us or whatever we're relating to in our outer world is in accord with the in our outer world is in accord with the in our outer world is in accord with the agenda of our soul. Now I know that's agenda of our soul. Now I know that's agenda of our soul. Now I know that's very vague but you know to give a I very vague but you know to give a I very vague but you know to give a I think an example let's say I'm supposed think an example let's say I'm supposed think an example let's say I'm supposed to adopt a certain career or a certain to adopt a certain career or a certain to adopt a certain career or a certain um athletic regimen or a certain um athletic regimen or a certain um athletic regimen or a certain ideology and that will quote make me ideology and that will quote make me ideology and that will quote make me happy or bring me meaning and perhaps it happy or bring me meaning and perhaps it happy or bring me meaning and perhaps it will to a certain degree but in the long will to a certain degree but in the long will to a certain degree but in the long run if I'm giving my energies to run if I'm giving my energies to run if I'm giving my energies to something that's really not in alignment something that's really not in alignment something that's really not in alignment with what's true within me at the with what's true within me at the with what's true within me at the deepest level, a level which I may not deepest level, a level which I may not deepest level, a level which I may not know much about consciously. know much about consciously. know much about consciously. Um, so I had my own experience of that. Um, so I had my own experience of that. Um, so I had my own experience of that. I think I told you the first time we I think I told you the first time we I think I told you the first time we met, I'd achieved all my outer goals in met, I'd achieved all my outer goals in met, I'd achieved all my outer goals in my mid30s and then was hit with a my mid30s and then was hit with a my mid30s and then was hit with a serious depression. And it was it was an serious depression. And it was it was an serious depression. And it was it was an opportunity for me to sort of go within. opportunity for me to sort of go within. opportunity for me to sort of go within. It was a necessity not an opportunity. It was a necessity not an opportunity. It was a necessity not an opportunity. It was a necessity to go within It was a necessity to go within It was a necessity to go within and to explore why is the psyche and to explore why is the psyche and to explore why is the psyche autonomously withdrawing its approval autonomously withdrawing its approval autonomously withdrawing its approval and support from the places that I want and support from the places that I want and support from the places that I want to put it or the world tells me I ought to put it or the world tells me I ought to put it or the world tells me I ought to be putting it there. And uh that was to be putting it there. And uh that was to be putting it there. And uh that was the beginning of a different kind of the beginning of a different kind of the beginning of a different kind of journey of recovery of personal journey of recovery of personal journey of recovery of personal authority and and a striking out in some authority and and a striking out in some authority and and a striking out in some very large and new directions. very large and new directions. very large and new directions. So meaning is something experiential. I So meaning is something experiential. I So meaning is something experiential. I think it's not conceptual. think it's not conceptual. think it's not conceptual. We may from the conscious standpoint We may from the conscious standpoint We may from the conscious standpoint assess things from time to time. Of assess things from time to time. Of assess things from time to time. Of course there's a place for consciousness course there's a place for consciousness course there's a place for consciousness here. But it's it's not like meaning is here. But it's it's not like meaning is here. But it's it's not like meaning is hidden somewhere and we have to go find hidden somewhere and we have to go find hidden somewhere and we have to go find it because you know many times for it because you know many times for it because you know many times for example example example people are in extreme circumstances but people are in extreme circumstances but people are in extreme circumstances but intracychically intracychically intracychically they are well they are in the right they are well they are in the right they are well they are in the right places they should be as Jean Paul Sart places they should be as Jean Paul Sart places they should be as Jean Paul Sart said sometimes the person who is in said sometimes the person who is in said sometimes the person who is in prison is freer than the one who prison is freer than the one who prison is freer than the one who imprisons imprisons imprisons and I think what he was getting at there and I think what he was getting at there and I think what he was getting at there is maybe the person who's the imprisoner is maybe the person who's the imprisoner is maybe the person who's the imprisoner is uh a functionary of the state let's is uh a functionary of the state let's is uh a functionary of the state let's say or he does it because it's his job say or he does it because it's his job say or he does it because it's his job or even a certain ideology or even a certain ideology or even a certain ideology but the prisoner has a sense my being but the prisoner has a sense my being but the prisoner has a sense my being here is a statement of my values or my here is a statement of my values or my here is a statement of my values or my being here is an expression of my being here is an expression of my being here is an expression of my willingness to care deeply about some willingness to care deeply about some willingness to care deeply about some value and so I can have a sense of great value and so I can have a sense of great value and so I can have a sense of great meaning intracychically meaning intracychically meaning intracychically even when my outer world is quite even when my outer world is quite even when my outer world is quite conflictual and even painful. So I don't conflictual and even painful. So I don't conflictual and even painful. So I don't think meaning is something we choose. think meaning is something we choose. think meaning is something we choose. Although we can choose paths that bring Although we can choose paths that bring Although we can choose paths that bring us into that accord, it's something we us into that accord, it's something we us into that accord, it's something we can experience and we experience the can experience and we experience the can experience and we experience the loss of it. loss of it. loss of it. >> So many times as we all know people >> So many times as we all know people >> So many times as we all know people achieve their goals and there's a achieve their goals and there's a achieve their goals and there's a dissatisfaction to it. There's a sense dissatisfaction to it. There's a sense dissatisfaction to it. There's a sense after a while of indifference or boredom after a while of indifference or boredom after a while of indifference or boredom or ultimately depression. And in those or ultimately depression. And in those or ultimately depression. And in those moments, what you you see there is moments, what you you see there is moments, what you you see there is there's an autonomy of something inside there's an autonomy of something inside there's an autonomy of something inside of each of us. That which I would also of each of us. That which I would also of each of us. That which I would also say say say knows us better than we know ourselves. knows us better than we know ourselves. knows us better than we know ourselves. It has its own agenda. It has its own agenda. It has its own agenda. And you can call it the agenda of nature And you can call it the agenda of nature And you can call it the agenda of nature seeking to express itself or the will of seeking to express itself or the will of seeking to express itself or the will of divinity if you so wish to to use that divinity if you so wish to to use that divinity if you so wish to to use that metaphor. Um and that's something metaphor. Um and that's something metaphor. Um and that's something transcendent to ordinary ego transcendent to ordinary ego transcendent to ordinary ego consciousness. consciousness. consciousness. And when I'm in right relationship to And when I'm in right relationship to And when I'm in right relationship to that even if everything else around me that even if everything else around me that even if everything else around me is troubled then then there's that sense is troubled then then there's that sense is troubled then then there's that sense of interiority that supports we you can of interiority that supports we you can of interiority that supports we you can put it this way. What supports us when put it this way. What supports us when put it this way. What supports us when nothing supports us? nothing supports us? nothing supports us? Now, I've learned the hard way, and I Now, I've learned the hard way, and I Now, I've learned the hard way, and I know other individuals have as well, know other individuals have as well, know other individuals have as well, that even when our normal coping that even when our normal coping that even when our normal coping strategies or ideas about self and world strategies or ideas about self and world strategies or ideas about self and world are no longer working very well, are no longer working very well, are no longer working very well, there's something inside that still can there's something inside that still can there's something inside that still can sustain us and pull us through those sustain us and pull us through those sustain us and pull us through those times in very meaningful ways. times in very meaningful ways. times in very meaningful ways. And it' be nice to be able to package And it' be nice to be able to package And it' be nice to be able to package that and merchandise that. But it's it's that and merchandise that. But it's it's that and merchandise that. But it's it's something autonomous. something autonomous. something autonomous. >> It lies wholly without my will to call >> It lies wholly without my will to call >> It lies wholly without my will to call it up. Although, as I said, I can use my it up. Although, as I said, I can use my it up. Although, as I said, I can use my will to perhaps make those sorts of will to perhaps make those sorts of will to perhaps make those sorts of choices that might be difficult choices, choices that might be difficult choices, choices that might be difficult choices, but which bring me into that right but which bring me into that right but which bring me into that right relationship. relationship. relationship. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I love this idea that there's something I love this idea that there's something I love this idea that there's something deep within us that knows us better than deep within us that knows us better than deep within us that knows us better than we know ourselves. we know ourselves. we know ourselves. This underlying force or energy that This underlying force or energy that This underlying force or energy that underpins underpins underpins everything that goes on in our life. everything that goes on in our life. everything that goes on in our life. Right at the start though, I think we Right at the start though, I think we Right at the start though, I think we should define a couple of terms that should define a couple of terms that should define a couple of terms that you've used. You've used the term ego you've used. You've used the term ego you've used. You've used the term ego consciousness. You've used the term consciousness. You've used the term consciousness. You've used the term psyche. Uh intracychic awareness. And psyche. Uh intracychic awareness. And psyche. Uh intracychic awareness. And for people perhaps who are not familiar for people perhaps who are not familiar for people perhaps who are not familiar with those terms, could you give us a with those terms, could you give us a with those terms, could you give us a little bit of an overview so that we can little bit of an overview so that we can little bit of an overview so that we can follow along? follow along? follow along? >> Ego consciousness is my conscious >> Ego consciousness is my conscious >> Ego consciousness is my conscious awareness of myself in my environment. awareness of myself in my environment. awareness of myself in my environment. So I'm conscious at this moment that you So I'm conscious at this moment that you So I'm conscious at this moment that you and I are having a conversation. and I are having a conversation. and I are having a conversation. So ego consciousness is that which we So ego consciousness is that which we So ego consciousness is that which we usually tend to think of as ourselves. usually tend to think of as ourselves. usually tend to think of as ourselves. Uh the the psyche is the Greek word for Uh the the psyche is the Greek word for Uh the the psyche is the Greek word for soul. And in analytic psychology, the soul. And in analytic psychology, the soul. And in analytic psychology, the psyche is the totality of the human psyche is the totality of the human psyche is the totality of the human being. It's it expresses itself through being. It's it expresses itself through being. It's it expresses itself through the body, through our emotions, our the body, through our emotions, our the body, through our emotions, our cognitions, and and so forth. But it's cognitions, and and so forth. But it's cognitions, and and so forth. But it's also a manifestation of that autonomous also a manifestation of that autonomous also a manifestation of that autonomous other. other. other. The the psyche is properly understood a The the psyche is properly understood a The the psyche is properly understood a verb. If it were a noun, it would show verb. If it were a noun, it would show verb. If it were a noun, it would show up on an MRI or a CAT scan. It it's not. up on an MRI or a CAT scan. It it's not. up on an MRI or a CAT scan. It it's not. It's it's an energy system. It's the It's it's an energy system. It's the It's it's an energy system. It's the energy of life. It enters mysteriously energy of life. It enters mysteriously energy of life. It enters mysteriously at birth. At death it mysteriously at birth. At death it mysteriously at birth. At death it mysteriously departs from whence has come. Whether it departs from whence has come. Whether it departs from whence has come. Whether it goes we don't know. We really don't goes we don't know. We really don't goes we don't know. We really don't know. People speculate. We don't know. know. People speculate. We don't know. know. People speculate. We don't know. And it's understandable that one sort of And it's understandable that one sort of And it's understandable that one sort of identify identify identify who one is by one's conscious world. So who one is by one's conscious world. So who one is by one's conscious world. So when people lose their job or they're when people lose their job or they're when people lose their job or they're forced to retire or an illness removes forced to retire or an illness removes forced to retire or an illness removes them from some activity, them from some activity, them from some activity, uh there there's a great sense of loss uh there there's a great sense of loss uh there there's a great sense of loss of course, but it's like that's not who of course, but it's like that's not who of course, but it's like that's not who you are. That's what you've been doing you are. That's what you've been doing you are. That's what you've been doing or that's how you've manifested in the or that's how you've manifested in the or that's how you've manifested in the world, but that's that's not who you world, but that's that's not who you world, but that's that's not who you are. There is this autonomous other are. There is this autonomous other are. There is this autonomous other again that knows what's right for us. again that knows what's right for us. again that knows what's right for us. What what the nature of that is is at What what the nature of that is is at What what the nature of that is is at heart a mystery. Mhm. heart a mystery. Mhm. heart a mystery. Mhm. >> So to take an obvious example, you know, >> So to take an obvious example, you know, >> So to take an obvious example, you know, you as a physician didn't heal people, you as a physician didn't heal people, you as a physician didn't heal people, but you could bring about the conditions but you could bring about the conditions but you could bring about the conditions in which healing could occur. Healing is in which healing could occur. Healing is in which healing could occur. Healing is something that occurs from within the something that occurs from within the something that occurs from within the organism itself. And learning how to organism itself. And learning how to organism itself. And learning how to live in accord with that is is part of live in accord with that is is part of live in accord with that is is part of how one becomes a healer, not just a how one becomes a healer, not just a how one becomes a healer, not just a technician. technician. technician. So the the intra psychic means what's So the the intra psychic means what's So the the intra psychic means what's going on inside of me. going on inside of me. going on inside of me. You and I are engaged at this conscious You and I are engaged at this conscious You and I are engaged at this conscious level at this moment. But who's level at this moment. But who's level at this moment. But who's monitoring the death and rebirth of monitoring the death and rebirth of monitoring the death and rebirth of cells in us, right? What agency, what cells in us, right? What agency, what cells in us, right? What agency, what governmental agency is digesting our our governmental agency is digesting our our governmental agency is digesting our our lunch, you see? Um what what's growing lunch, you see? Um what what's growing lunch, you see? Um what what's growing our toenails? our toenails? our toenails? All of these myriad operations are going All of these myriad operations are going All of these myriad operations are going on autonomously. on autonomously. on autonomously. And out of that there is a a sense of a And out of that there is a a sense of a And out of that there is a a sense of a a kind of nature that is expressing a kind of nature that is expressing a kind of nature that is expressing itself in the world. But that's the itself in the world. But that's the itself in the world. But that's the natural function. The epiphenomenon natural function. The epiphenomenon natural function. The epiphenomenon which is to say the secondary function which is to say the secondary function which is to say the secondary function is to be separate from that and to is to be separate from that and to is to be separate from that and to observe that I I can see on here I need observe that I I can see on here I need observe that I I can see on here I need to get a haircut for example. Right? So to get a haircut for example. Right? So to get a haircut for example. Right? So that's consciousness paying attention to that's consciousness paying attention to that's consciousness paying attention to some detail but I'm not growing the hair some detail but I'm not growing the hair some detail but I'm not growing the hair for example. for example. for example. Um and and underneath that that's why Um and and underneath that that's why Um and and underneath that that's why the question then is to what degree is the question then is to what degree is the question then is to what degree is my ego consciousness that is to say my my ego consciousness that is to say my my ego consciousness that is to say my ordinary awareness ordinary awareness ordinary awareness in accord with or aligned with. Now in accord with or aligned with. Now in accord with or aligned with. Now early on as children of course we're early on as children of course we're early on as children of course we're tiny dependent and vulnerable. We know tiny dependent and vulnerable. We know tiny dependent and vulnerable. We know what's right for us. We cry when we're what's right for us. We cry when we're what's right for us. We cry when we're hungry. We sleep when we need to sleep hungry. We sleep when we need to sleep hungry. We sleep when we need to sleep and so forth. But that core and so forth. But that core and so forth. But that core vulnerability and the need for vulnerability and the need for vulnerability and the need for protection and so forth makes us protection and so forth makes us protection and so forth makes us dependent upon our environment. dependent upon our environment. dependent upon our environment. And the more we're dependent on the And the more we're dependent on the And the more we're dependent on the environment, the more we have to engage environment, the more we have to engage environment, the more we have to engage in tradeoffs, which is how we begin to in tradeoffs, which is how we begin to in tradeoffs, which is how we begin to get separated from that presence within. get separated from that presence within. get separated from that presence within. Now, recovering a relationship to that Now, recovering a relationship to that Now, recovering a relationship to that is really about recovering a personal is really about recovering a personal is really about recovering a personal sense of authority. We have it when sense of authority. We have it when sense of authority. We have it when we're born. It's called instinct. We get we're born. It's called instinct. We get we're born. It's called instinct. We get socialized and necessarily so of course socialized and necessarily so of course socialized and necessarily so of course but that socialization ultimately but that socialization ultimately but that socialization ultimately becomes costly because again it's becomes costly because again it's becomes costly because again it's separated. So for example there is no separated. So for example there is no separated. So for example there is no one who hasn't felt shame of some kind one who hasn't felt shame of some kind one who hasn't felt shame of some kind or there's no one who doesn't have mixed or there's no one who doesn't have mixed or there's no one who doesn't have mixed messages about sexuality for example. So messages about sexuality for example. So messages about sexuality for example. So those those are culturally acquired those those are culturally acquired those those are culturally acquired experiences inevitably that can separate experiences inevitably that can separate experiences inevitably that can separate a person from his or her instinctual a person from his or her instinctual a person from his or her instinctual guidance system. That's why when there guidance system. That's why when there guidance system. That's why when there is a significant violation is a significant violation is a significant violation of the agenda of our own nature, it will of the agenda of our own nature, it will of the agenda of our own nature, it will always show up pathologically. always show up pathologically. always show up pathologically. >> Now when I say pathologically, I don't >> Now when I say pathologically, I don't >> Now when I say pathologically, I don't mean that in any judgmental way. Pathos mean that in any judgmental way. Pathos mean that in any judgmental way. Pathos is the Greek word for suffering. In is the Greek word for suffering. In is the Greek word for suffering. In other words, it will be some form, it other words, it will be some form, it other words, it will be some form, it will cause some form of suffering. will cause some form of suffering. will cause some form of suffering. You know, as I gave the example, a You know, as I gave the example, a You know, as I gave the example, a person prepares for a certain career, person prepares for a certain career, person prepares for a certain career, assumes this will carry me my entire assumes this will carry me my entire assumes this will carry me my entire life. And after a certain period, even life. And after a certain period, even life. And after a certain period, even if one has been productive, maybe one if one has been productive, maybe one if one has been productive, maybe one has been rewarded for that productivity, has been rewarded for that productivity, has been rewarded for that productivity, one finds it no longer quickens the one finds it no longer quickens the one finds it no longer quickens the spirit when you enter the office or no spirit when you enter the office or no spirit when you enter the office or no no longer feels uh something that no longer feels uh something that no longer feels uh something that energize. In fact, it depletes. energize. In fact, it depletes. energize. In fact, it depletes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and then you see that other within >> And and then you see that other within >> And and then you see that other within us has expressed its uh intent. It's us has expressed its uh intent. It's us has expressed its uh intent. It's expressed its concern. expressed its concern. expressed its concern. And so it's typical for us to keep And so it's typical for us to keep And so it's typical for us to keep rolling to say, well, I I'll take a pill rolling to say, well, I I'll take a pill rolling to say, well, I I'll take a pill for this or I'll go skiing next weekend for this or I'll go skiing next weekend for this or I'll go skiing next weekend or something like that. All of which may or something like that. All of which may or something like that. All of which may be useful at some point, but sort of be useful at some point, but sort of be useful at some point, but sort of misses the point. misses the point. misses the point. And I've learned the hard way and I And I've learned the hard way and I And I've learned the hard way and I emphasize the hard way over the years emphasize the hard way over the years emphasize the hard way over the years that if I need to know what's right for that if I need to know what's right for that if I need to know what's right for me, it could range from the mundane like me, it could range from the mundane like me, it could range from the mundane like how to start an essay for example or how to start an essay for example or how to start an essay for example or what to deal with some emotional what to deal with some emotional what to deal with some emotional struggle or struggle or struggle or how to approach a client's troubles. how to approach a client's troubles. how to approach a client's troubles. I sort of put it in there. Speaking I sort of put it in there. Speaking I sort of put it in there. Speaking metaphorically, I put it in there and metaphorically, I put it in there and metaphorically, I put it in there and something works on it something works on it something works on it >> and it gets back to me. I can't explain >> and it gets back to me. I can't explain >> and it gets back to me. I can't explain that. It gets back to me. Not that. It gets back to me. Not that. It gets back to me. Not necessarily in a predictable way. Not necessarily in a predictable way. Not necessarily in a predictable way. Not necessarily having a report on my desk necessarily having a report on my desk necessarily having a report on my desk by 5:00 in the afternoon as I would by 5:00 in the afternoon as I would by 5:00 in the afternoon as I would prefer, but it'll come as a dream 3 days prefer, but it'll come as a dream 3 days prefer, but it'll come as a dream 3 days from now or I'll be driving down the the from now or I'll be driving down the the from now or I'll be driving down the the motorway and motorway and motorway and something's suddenly clear to me or I something's suddenly clear to me or I something's suddenly clear to me or I wake up and I look at the situation from wake up and I look at the situation from wake up and I look at the situation from a different angle. a different angle. a different angle. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that tells me what is right for me. >> And that tells me what is right for me. >> And that tells me what is right for me. Then of course I have to mobilize Then of course I have to mobilize Then of course I have to mobilize whatever intentionality sometimes whatever intentionality sometimes whatever intentionality sometimes including courage including courage including courage to to live that in in the world. And if to to live that in in the world. And if to to live that in in the world. And if we do that this is not narcissism. It we do that this is not narcissism. It we do that this is not narcissism. It could sound like that at first glance could sound like that at first glance could sound like that at first glance but it's not. It actually calls the ego but it's not. It actually calls the ego but it's not. It actually calls the ego consciousness into service. consciousness into service. consciousness into service. Now, if the project of the first half of Now, if the project of the first half of Now, if the project of the first half of life is to figure out what they're life is to figure out what they're life is to figure out what they're asking of you out there, you know, what asking of you out there, you know, what asking of you out there, you know, what do my mom and dad want from me? What do my mom and dad want from me? What do my mom and dad want from me? What what does the school teacher want from what does the school teacher want from what does the school teacher want from me? What does the partner, what does the me? What does the partner, what does the me? What does the partner, what does the employer want from me, what does the employer want from me, what does the employer want from me, what does the state want from me, etc., etc. Th those state want from me, etc., etc. Th those state want from me, etc., etc. Th those are all again adaptations to the world are all again adaptations to the world are all again adaptations to the world that fate has thrust us into. that fate has thrust us into. that fate has thrust us into. >> Yeah. However, >> Yeah. However, >> Yeah. However, in the second half of life, we have to in the second half of life, we have to in the second half of life, we have to ask, "All right, now I've sort of ask, "All right, now I've sort of ask, "All right, now I've sort of created a provisional identity. I maybe created a provisional identity. I maybe created a provisional identity. I maybe I have a family, may I have a home, I have a family, may I have a home, I have a family, may I have a home, maybe I have a job, etc." And that's how maybe I have a job, etc." And that's how maybe I have a job, etc." And that's how many people live their lives, you know, many people live their lives, you know, many people live their lives, you know, it's it's a kind of wrote repetition. it's it's a kind of wrote repetition. it's it's a kind of wrote repetition. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But then ask the question, so what is >> But then ask the question, so what is >> But then ask the question, so what is worthy of my service? worthy of my service? worthy of my service? What should I be giving myself to? I What should I be giving myself to? I What should I be giving myself to? I don't mean at the neglect of our honest don't mean at the neglect of our honest don't mean at the neglect of our honest relationships. You know, you don't stop relationships. You know, you don't stop relationships. You know, you don't stop trying to be the best parent you can and trying to be the best parent you can and trying to be the best parent you can and the best partner you can, the best the best partner you can, the best the best partner you can, the best citizen you could be. But there's also citizen you could be. But there's also citizen you could be. But there's also something else that calls for your something else that calls for your something else that calls for your personal growth and attention. personal growth and attention. personal growth and attention. Now, at some level, it sounds obvious. Now, at some level, it sounds obvious. Now, at some level, it sounds obvious. At another level, it's pretty radical At another level, it's pretty radical At another level, it's pretty radical because what it means is you step out because what it means is you step out because what it means is you step out into the unknown. into the unknown. into the unknown. You don't know what that means to you. You don't know what that means to you. You don't know what that means to you. You don't know where that's going to You don't know where that's going to You don't know where that's going to take you. take you. take you. At midlife, when I had that depression, At midlife, when I had that depression, At midlife, when I had that depression, I I realized for the first time I had to I I realized for the first time I had to I I realized for the first time I had to to really start looking within. I to really start looking within. I to really start looking within. I thought I'd always been a thoughtful thought I'd always been a thoughtful thought I'd always been a thoughtful person, a reflective person, but it person, a reflective person, but it person, a reflective person, but it wasn't working so well. So, I had to to wasn't working so well. So, I had to to wasn't working so well. So, I had to to engage in some other kind of engage in some other kind of engage in some other kind of conversation conversation conversation around what's going on inside. and and around what's going on inside. and and around what's going on inside. and and and not so much to ask the question, and not so much to ask the question, and not so much to ask the question, well, how quickly do we get rid of that well, how quickly do we get rid of that well, how quickly do we get rid of that depression? That's understandable from depression? That's understandable from depression? That's understandable from the ego standpoint. the ego standpoint. the ego standpoint. Um, but rather, why did it come? Um, but rather, why did it come? Um, but rather, why did it come? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why has it >> Why has it >> Why has it withdrawn its approval? withdrawn its approval? withdrawn its approval? What would it want from me? That's not a What would it want from me? That's not a What would it want from me? That's not a question that we normally think about. question that we normally think about. question that we normally think about. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now, if you remember, the word psyche is >> Now, if you remember, the word psyche is >> Now, if you remember, the word psyche is also translated as soul. sort of asking also translated as soul. sort of asking also translated as soul. sort of asking what does the soul want of me? Now when what does the soul want of me? Now when what does the soul want of me? Now when I use the word soul some people were I use the word soul some people were I use the word soul some people were shut down because they have complexes shut down because they have complexes shut down because they have complexes around you know what whatever that word around you know what whatever that word around you know what whatever that word has meant to them and their cultural has meant to them and their cultural has meant to them and their cultural history but we're using it in in just in history but we're using it in in just in history but we're using it in in just in a sense of whatever is most deeply true a sense of whatever is most deeply true a sense of whatever is most deeply true within you that timeless dimension within you that timeless dimension within you that timeless dimension within you where you carry that spark of within you where you carry that spark of within you where you carry that spark of the human the human the human that is universal. It's in everyone but that is universal. It's in everyone but that is universal. It's in everyone but rather few people have access to it or rather few people have access to it or rather few people have access to it or pay attention to it. And it doesn't mean pay attention to it. And it doesn't mean pay attention to it. And it doesn't mean that one withdraws from the world. In that one withdraws from the world. In that one withdraws from the world. In fact, ultimately it means when we engage fact, ultimately it means when we engage fact, ultimately it means when we engage in the world, we bring a kind a in the world, we bring a kind a in the world, we bring a kind a different kind of presence into our different kind of presence into our different kind of presence into our relationships with others and with that relationships with others and with that relationships with others and with that exterior world. So this is a humbling exterior world. So this is a humbling exterior world. So this is a humbling process. Yeah, process. Yeah, process. Yeah, >> it's not about becoming wealthy or >> it's not about becoming wealthy or >> it's not about becoming wealthy or powerful or finding abiding love out powerful or finding abiding love out powerful or finding abiding love out there. All of which could be important there. All of which could be important there. All of which could be important in a person's life. But it's it's about in a person's life. But it's it's about in a person's life. But it's it's about trying to track that mystery that shows trying to track that mystery that shows trying to track that mystery that shows up in each of us. Another example, I'm up in each of us. Another example, I'm up in each of us. Another example, I'm sorry if I'm running on too much. sorry if I'm running on too much. sorry if I'm running on too much. >> No, this is great. Please. >> No, this is great. Please. >> No, this is great. Please. >> These are important questions and >> These are important questions and >> These are important questions and they're not easily answered. in therapy. they're not easily answered. in therapy. they're not easily answered. in therapy. For example, I remember Marie Louise von For example, I remember Marie Louise von For example, I remember Marie Louise von France, an anal in in Zurich. I had the France, an anal in in Zurich. I had the France, an anal in in Zurich. I had the privilege to cross paths with her privilege to cross paths with her privilege to cross paths with her briefly when I was in training there. briefly when I was in training there. briefly when I was in training there. And she said, "Look, I'm not a god. I And she said, "Look, I'm not a god. I And she said, "Look, I'm not a god. I don't know what's right for a person." don't know what's right for a person." don't know what's right for a person." But there's something inside of them But there's something inside of them But there's something inside of them that knows what's right. And I try to that knows what's right. And I try to that knows what's right. And I try to pay so much attention pay so much attention pay so much attention to that process that the client or the to that process that the client or the to that process that the client or the patient begins to pay attention to. Mhm. patient begins to pay attention to. Mhm. patient begins to pay attention to. Mhm. >> And then what is right for that person >> And then what is right for that person >> And then what is right for that person will emerge. You see the the therapist's will emerge. You see the the therapist's will emerge. You see the the therapist's role there is not to fix something or role there is not to fix something or role there is not to fix something or even offer five easy steps to this or 30 even offer five easy steps to this or 30 even offer five easy steps to this or 30 days to that. That's pretty superficial days to that. That's pretty superficial days to that. That's pretty superficial stuff. Sometimes helpful but often stuff. Sometimes helpful but often stuff. Sometimes helpful but often transient in its efficacy. transient in its efficacy. transient in its efficacy. So So So ultimately this is about ultimately this is about ultimately this is about respecting respecting respecting what is wanting to enter the world what is wanting to enter the world what is wanting to enter the world through you. That's a different through you. That's a different through you. That's a different question. question. question. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's not about ego arandisment. It's >> It's not about ego arandisment. It's >> It's not about ego arandisment. It's what what is wanting to enter the world what what is wanting to enter the world what what is wanting to enter the world through me. So I'm 85. The one thing I through me. So I'm 85. The one thing I through me. So I'm 85. The one thing I and I've had, you know, many medical and I've had, you know, many medical and I've had, you know, many medical issues as a person does at this stage of issues as a person does at this stage of issues as a person does at this stage of life. But one of the things that has life. But one of the things that has life. But one of the things that has always been meaningful to me has been always been meaningful to me has been always been meaningful to me has been learning and teaching. learning and teaching. learning and teaching. So, I continue to teach classes. That's So, I continue to teach classes. That's So, I continue to teach classes. That's why I have these podcasts. I'm not why I have these podcasts. I'm not why I have these podcasts. I'm not building a career at this point. At building a career at this point. At building a career at this point. At times, I would wish a lot of people times, I would wish a lot of people times, I would wish a lot of people would leave me alone. But I I I know would leave me alone. But I I I know would leave me alone. But I I I know it's also a medium whereby it's also a medium whereby it's also a medium whereby I can perhaps be helpful to people in I can perhaps be helpful to people in I can perhaps be helpful to people in looking at their lives in a different looking at their lives in a different looking at their lives in a different way. And that seems to me to be a way. And that seems to me to be a way. And that seems to me to be a calling. That's not a job. It's a calling. That's not a job. It's a calling. That's not a job. It's a calling. calling. calling. >> Yeah. And you know it it doesn't have to >> Yeah. And you know it it doesn't have to >> Yeah. And you know it it doesn't have to eventuate in what we might call eventuate in what we might call eventuate in what we might call professional activities. Your calling is professional activities. Your calling is professional activities. Your calling is to be the fullest possible human being. to be the fullest possible human being. to be the fullest possible human being. You can you know to share who that You can you know to share who that You can you know to share who that person is. When Jung said the greatest person is. When Jung said the greatest person is. When Jung said the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived burden a child must bear is the unlived burden a child must bear is the unlived life of the parent. I think what he was life of the parent. I think what he was life of the parent. I think what he was saying is we don't have to be perfect. saying is we don't have to be perfect. saying is we don't have to be perfect. Who's perfect among us? Who's perfect among us? Who's perfect among us? Be a a rich and authentic human being. Be a a rich and authentic human being. Be a a rich and authentic human being. Live your journey with as much courage, Live your journey with as much courage, Live your journey with as much courage, fidelity as you can. And that includes fidelity as you can. And that includes fidelity as you can. And that includes serving relationships for sure. Again, serving relationships for sure. Again, serving relationships for sure. Again, we're not talking about narcissism, we're not talking about narcissism, we're not talking about narcissism, isolation. isolation. isolation. We're we're we're saying that part of We're we're we're saying that part of We're we're we're saying that part of the arena in which this meaning can the arena in which this meaning can the arena in which this meaning can arise is through the quality of our arise is through the quality of our arise is through the quality of our relationships. relationships. relationships. Now when we look at it that way, you Now when we look at it that way, you Now when we look at it that way, you realize, all right, I have a I have a realize, all right, I have a I have a realize, all right, I have a I have a duty here, duty here, duty here, a calling to my own soul, but also to be a calling to my own soul, but also to be a calling to my own soul, but also to be that in the world in as many places as I that in the world in as many places as I that in the world in as many places as I can, even if that's uncomfortable. can, even if that's uncomfortable. can, even if that's uncomfortable. So I'm a card carrying introvert but So I'm a card carrying introvert but So I'm a card carrying introvert but I've lived for a good part of my life an I've lived for a good part of my life an I've lived for a good part of my life an extrovertive professional life. There's extrovertive professional life. There's extrovertive professional life. There's always an inherent conflict there. always an inherent conflict there. always an inherent conflict there. There's always stress. There's always There's always stress. There's always There's always stress. There's always anxiety that just comes with the with anxiety that just comes with the with anxiety that just comes with the with the that's the price of the ticket so to the that's the price of the ticket so to the that's the price of the ticket so to speak. If you're going to do what you're speak. If you're going to do what you're speak. If you're going to do what you're meant to do, not everybody is going to meant to do, not everybody is going to meant to do, not everybody is going to like it. Not everybody's going to like it. Not everybody's going to like it. Not everybody's going to appreciate that. It may stretch you appreciate that. It may stretch you appreciate that. It may stretch you beyond the comfortable. beyond the comfortable. beyond the comfortable. And yet, and this takes us back to your And yet, and this takes us back to your And yet, and this takes us back to your initial question, initial question, initial question, you'll experience a richness you'll experience a richness you'll experience a richness of serving that which wants to enter the of serving that which wants to enter the of serving that which wants to enter the world through you. world through you. world through you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now, again, I'm not talking about >> Now, again, I'm not talking about >> Now, again, I'm not talking about finding a cure for cancer or making some finding a cure for cancer or making some finding a cure for cancer or making some miraculous invention. It's it's about miraculous invention. It's it's about miraculous invention. It's it's about being who you are. That's the gift. being who you are. That's the gift. being who you are. That's the gift. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you. 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Explore the new Pelaton Crossraining Bike Plus by Pelaton Crossraining Bike Plus by Pelaton Crossraining Bike Plus by clicking on the link below or by clicking on the link below or by clicking on the link below or by scanning the QR code on screen. One of scanning the QR code on screen. One of scanning the QR code on screen. One of the biggest changes I've made over the the biggest changes I've made over the the biggest changes I've made over the past few months is to start each day past few months is to start each day past few months is to start each day using the way and I absolutely love it. using the way and I absolutely love it. using the way and I absolutely love it. Meditation has so many benefits for our Meditation has so many benefits for our Meditation has so many benefits for our physical health and our mental physical health and our mental physical health and our mental well-being, but only if we actually do well-being, but only if we actually do well-being, but only if we actually do it. And that's one of the reasons I love it. And that's one of the reasons I love it. And that's one of the reasons I love this app so much. It makes it really this app so much. It makes it really this app so much. It makes it really easy to establish a meditation practice easy to establish a meditation practice easy to establish a meditation practice that sticks. One of the most unique that sticks. One of the most unique that sticks. One of the most unique things about the way is that it is a things about the way is that it is a things about the way is that it is a meditation app with no choice. They meditation app with no choice. They meditation app with no choice. They understand that too much choice is understand that too much choice is understand that too much choice is stressful and can lead to stressful and can lead to stressful and can lead to procrastination and indecision. So with procrastination and indecision. So with procrastination and indecision. So with the way, you only ever have one choice, the way, you only ever have one choice, the way, you only ever have one choice, which makes things really easy. Just which makes things really easy. Just which makes things really easy. Just open the app, follow the path, and your open the app, follow the path, and your open the app, follow the path, and your transformation will unfold. Now, there's transformation will unfold. Now, there's transformation will unfold. Now, there's no question that for me, using the way no question that for me, using the way no question that for me, using the way every morning has helped me feel calmer, every morning has helped me feel calmer, every morning has helped me feel calmer, more relaxed, and it's also broadened my more relaxed, and it's also broadened my more relaxed, and it's also broadened my perspective on life and what is truly perspective on life and what is truly perspective on life and what is truly important. The creator of the app is important. The creator of the app is important. The creator of the app is Henry Shookman, a Zen master who has the Henry Shookman, a Zen master who has the Henry Shookman, a Zen master who has the most wonderful and relaxing voice. So, most wonderful and relaxing voice. So, most wonderful and relaxing voice. So, if you think 2026 is finally going to be if you think 2026 is finally going to be if you think 2026 is finally going to be the year where you start and stick to a the year where you start and stick to a the year where you start and stick to a meditation practice, I'd highly meditation practice, I'd highly meditation practice, I'd highly encourage you to check out The Way. And encourage you to check out The Way. And encourage you to check out The Way. And to give you a little extra motivation, to give you a little extra motivation, to give you a little extra motivation, The Way is offering my listeners 30 free The Way is offering my listeners 30 free The Way is offering my listeners 30 free sessions to get you started with your sessions to get you started with your sessions to get you started with your practice. That is a fantastic offer. practice. That is a fantastic offer. practice. That is a fantastic offer. What have you got to lose? To take What have you got to lose? To take What have you got to lose? To take advantage, either scan the QR code on advantage, either scan the QR code on advantage, either scan the QR code on screen or go to the wayapp.comlivemore and begin your journey towards peace, and begin your journey towards peace, calm, and purpose. calm, and purpose. calm, and purpose. I think much of what you have said there I think much of what you have said there I think much of what you have said there was beautifully summarized in one was beautifully summarized in one was beautifully summarized in one paragraph in the conclusion of I think paragraph in the conclusion of I think paragraph in the conclusion of I think one of your latest books, a life of one of your latest books, a life of one of your latest books, a life of meaning. And you wrote in that meaning. And you wrote in that meaning. And you wrote in that conclusion, we know what the world conclusion, we know what the world conclusion, we know what the world wants. We know what our parents want. We wants. We know what our parents want. We wants. We know what our parents want. We know what the employer wants. We know know what the employer wants. We know know what the employer wants. We know what popular culture wants. But what what popular culture wants. But what what popular culture wants. But what does the psyche want? That's a whole does the psyche want? That's a whole does the psyche want? That's a whole different question. It's not different question. It's not different question. It's not narcissistic. It's humbling. It will narcissistic. It's humbling. It will narcissistic. It's humbling. It will lead us to places that we may not want lead us to places that we may not want lead us to places that we may not want to go, but that's exactly where we're to go, but that's exactly where we're to go, but that's exactly where we're meant to be. meant to be. meant to be. >> It would have saved us a lot of time if >> It would have saved us a lot of time if >> It would have saved us a lot of time if you just read that paragraph. Well, no, you just read that paragraph. Well, no, you just read that paragraph. Well, no, you it's it's it was funny as you were you it's it's it was funny as you were you it's it's it was funny as you were going through that and you were going through that and you were going through that and you were expanding upon it. I thought it it's all expanding upon it. I thought it it's all expanding upon it. I thought it it's all kind of kind of kind of >> it's all there, isn't it? You know, that >> it's all there, isn't it? You know, that >> it's all there, isn't it? You know, that the the idea that the the idea that the the idea that why is it that we are living through a why is it that we are living through a why is it that we are living through a crisis of meaning at the moment? Well, crisis of meaning at the moment? Well, crisis of meaning at the moment? Well, of course, one of the big causes is that of course, one of the big causes is that of course, one of the big causes is that societal and cultural conditioning, the societal and cultural conditioning, the societal and cultural conditioning, the stories we hear as children, the stories stories we hear as children, the stories stories we hear as children, the stories we hear from the world around us about we hear from the world around us about we hear from the world around us about what it means to be successful. So it's what it means to be successful. So it's what it means to be successful. So it's almost a cliche now but the amount of almost a cliche now but the amount of almost a cliche now but the amount of people who in midlife in their 30s 40s people who in midlife in their 30s 40s people who in midlife in their 30s 40s and 50s like you James you know they and 50s like you James you know they and 50s like you James you know they think they've done all the things that think they've done all the things that think they've done all the things that they were supposed to do yet there is they were supposed to do yet there is they were supposed to do yet there is this inner emptiness this longing for this inner emptiness this longing for this inner emptiness this longing for something more something more something more the longing is there for a meaningful the longing is there for a meaningful the longing is there for a meaningful life and one of the things that's become life and one of the things that's become life and one of the things that's become quite clear to me over my medical career quite clear to me over my medical career quite clear to me over my medical career and I'm sure like you in your psych and I'm sure like you in your psych and I'm sure like you in your psych therapy journey. Me and my medical therapy journey. Me and my medical therapy journey. Me and my medical journey, my viewpoint on health and the journey, my viewpoint on health and the journey, my viewpoint on health and the wider world has evolved significantly wider world has evolved significantly wider world has evolved significantly over the years. And the way I see things over the years. And the way I see things over the years. And the way I see things today, James, is that 80 to 90% of what today, James, is that 80 to 90% of what today, James, is that 80 to 90% of what we see as doctors is in some way related we see as doctors is in some way related we see as doctors is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. to our collective modern lifestyles. to our collective modern lifestyles. But the real learning for me is But the real learning for me is But the real learning for me is the lifestyle behaviors that people are the lifestyle behaviors that people are the lifestyle behaviors that people are engaging with that are resulting in all engaging with that are resulting in all engaging with that are resulting in all of these problems, of these problems, of these problems, a huge amount of them come from a lack a huge amount of them come from a lack a huge amount of them come from a lack of meaning. Right? So when you have that of meaning. Right? So when you have that of meaning. Right? So when you have that lack of meaning in your life, you end up lack of meaning in your life, you end up lack of meaning in your life, you end up doing the wrong things. You know, you doing the wrong things. You know, you doing the wrong things. You know, you get burnouts, you get overly stressed, get burnouts, you get overly stressed, get burnouts, you get overly stressed, you have problems in your relationships. you have problems in your relationships. you have problems in your relationships. You know, I remember from our first You know, I remember from our first You know, I remember from our first conversation, James, you said the I conversation, James, you said the I conversation, James, you said the I think you said greater than 70% think you said greater than 70% think you said greater than 70% of doctors and lawyers who've come into of doctors and lawyers who've come into of doctors and lawyers who've come into your therapy room over the last 40 years your therapy room over the last 40 years your therapy room over the last 40 years have told you that they never ever had have told you that they never ever had have told you that they never ever had any calling for those professions. So any calling for those professions. So any calling for those professions. So what's interesting to me is I qualified what's interesting to me is I qualified what's interesting to me is I qualified and studied to be a medical doctor, but and studied to be a medical doctor, but and studied to be a medical doctor, but more and more in the 21st century, I'm more and more in the 21st century, I'm more and more in the 21st century, I'm realizing that the only way I can help realizing that the only way I can help realizing that the only way I can help my patients is with a deep understanding my patients is with a deep understanding my patients is with a deep understanding of psychology. of psychology. of psychology. >> Well, I I concur. In my life, I was >> Well, I I concur. In my life, I was >> Well, I I concur. In my life, I was invested in academia. I was a professor invested in academia. I was a professor invested in academia. I was a professor of literature and philosophy, which I of literature and philosophy, which I of literature and philosophy, which I still treasure. still treasure. still treasure. But I also realized that there was uh a But I also realized that there was uh a But I also realized that there was uh a a deeper conversation occurring in the a deeper conversation occurring in the a deeper conversation occurring in the psychiatric hospital where I worked and psychiatric hospital where I worked and psychiatric hospital where I worked and on the academic campus. So that tells on the academic campus. So that tells on the academic campus. So that tells you something and b I had to address you something and b I had to address you something and b I had to address from whence do these things come? from whence do these things come? from whence do these things come? >> Where does this originate? Well, it's >> Where does this originate? Well, it's >> Where does this originate? Well, it's within the human psyche within the within the human psyche within the within the human psyche within the depths of the human soul. And I fully depths of the human soul. And I fully depths of the human soul. And I fully agree with you that analytic psychology agree with you that analytic psychology agree with you that analytic psychology unlike behaviorism and cognitive unlike behaviorism and cognitive unlike behaviorism and cognitive psychology which have their contribution psychology which have their contribution psychology which have their contribution to make tend to be more topically to make tend to be more topically to make tend to be more topically oriented to better adaptations to the oriented to better adaptations to the oriented to better adaptations to the world we live in. But what if the world world we live in. But what if the world world we live in. But what if the world that you're living in and investing all that you're living in and investing all that you're living in and investing all of your energy in is is really enimical of your energy in is is really enimical of your energy in is is really enimical to your well-being or in the end is to your well-being or in the end is to your well-being or in the end is delusional. won't take you where you delusional. won't take you where you delusional. won't take you where you think you want to go. think you want to go. think you want to go. That uh the biggest issue is is the That uh the biggest issue is is the That uh the biggest issue is is the issue of meaning always. And and Jung issue of meaning always. And and Jung issue of meaning always. And and Jung said when you discover the meaning of said when you discover the meaning of said when you discover the meaning of your suffering, your suffering, your suffering, then you have a deep sense of purpose. then you have a deep sense of purpose. then you have a deep sense of purpose. Then you have a deep sense of the Then you have a deep sense of the Then you have a deep sense of the rightness of it. We we can't be free of rightness of it. We we can't be free of rightness of it. We we can't be free of suffering. That just comes with the suffering. That just comes with the suffering. That just comes with the human uh condition. We are sensitive human uh condition. We are sensitive human uh condition. We are sensitive creatures and life it hurts at times. creatures and life it hurts at times. creatures and life it hurts at times. But you know there he said neurosis is But you know there he said neurosis is But you know there he said neurosis is the flight from authentic suffering the flight from authentic suffering the flight from authentic suffering which I think is a profound distinction. which I think is a profound distinction. which I think is a profound distinction. >> Can't avoid suffering because let's just >> Can't avoid suffering because let's just >> Can't avoid suffering because let's just say you say well you abandon yourself to say you say well you abandon yourself to say you say well you abandon yourself to the career track and so forth. Well, in the career track and so forth. Well, in the career track and so forth. Well, in the end you have a paycheck and a you the end you have a paycheck and a you the end you have a paycheck and a you know a gold watch when you leave the know a gold watch when you leave the know a gold watch when you leave the company or whatever whatever right of company or whatever whatever right of company or whatever whatever right of exit occurs and and then you sort of ask exit occurs and and then you sort of ask exit occurs and and then you sort of ask but then it's it's a little late to say but then it's it's a little late to say but then it's it's a little late to say I wonder if this was my path you know I wonder if this was my path you know I wonder if this was my path you know again that was the story of told stories again that was the story of told stories again that was the story of told stories the death of Ivon Iich back in 1885 the death of Ivon Iich back in 1885 the death of Ivon Iich back in 1885 Ivonne John Johnson in Russian so to Ivonne John Johnson in Russian so to Ivonne John Johnson in Russian so to speak so an everyman kind of guy did speak so an everyman kind of guy did speak so an everyman kind of guy did everything he is supposed to do. Spoused everything he is supposed to do. Spoused everything he is supposed to do. Spoused the right values, married the right the right values, married the right the right values, married the right person, lived in the right neighborhood, person, lived in the right neighborhood, person, lived in the right neighborhood, pursued the career track, and one day pursued the career track, and one day pursued the career track, and one day there's a pain in his side that doesn't there's a pain in his side that doesn't there's a pain in his side that doesn't go away. And he goes through the stages go away. And he goes through the stages go away. And he goes through the stages of death and dying that Kubler Ross of death and dying that Kubler Ross of death and dying that Kubler Ross identified, you know, of uh, you know, identified, you know, of uh, you know, identified, you know, of uh, you know, just trying to ignore it and and and just trying to ignore it and and and just trying to ignore it and and and then being angry at the interruption in then being angry at the interruption in then being angry at the interruption in his life and then a depression and all his life and then a depression and all his life and then a depression and all kinds of searches for magical cures and kinds of searches for magical cures and kinds of searches for magical cures and ultimately worked his way through to ask ultimately worked his way through to ask ultimately worked his way through to ask this question that had never troubled this question that had never troubled this question that had never troubled him in all of his life, namely, I wonder him in all of his life, namely, I wonder him in all of his life, namely, I wonder if my life has been wrong. if my life has been wrong. if my life has been wrong. And no one around him wants to talk And no one around him wants to talk And no one around him wants to talk about this because they're busily about this because they're busily about this because they're busily involved in their various agendas. It's involved in their various agendas. It's involved in their various agendas. It's his problem, not theirs. his problem, not theirs. his problem, not theirs. And his only truly profound And his only truly profound And his only truly profound conversation, and it's a very simple conversation, and it's a very simple conversation, and it's a very simple one, about life and death, is with an one, about life and death, is with an one, about life and death, is with an illiterate peasant who's assigned to his illiterate peasant who's assigned to his illiterate peasant who's assigned to his um his care. And then he dies. And one um his care. And then he dies. And one um his care. And then he dies. And one gets the sense that only in those last gets the sense that only in those last gets the sense that only in those last three days did he become a a a a deeply three days did he become a a a a deeply three days did he become a a a a deeply human creature, a profound moment in his human creature, a profound moment in his human creature, a profound moment in his life because all the rest had been life because all the rest had been life because all the rest had been playing the role. playing the role. playing the role. Not evil roles, well intended, but at Not evil roles, well intended, but at Not evil roles, well intended, but at the same time um keeping him in some way the same time um keeping him in some way the same time um keeping him in some way deluded that this is what his life was deluded that this is what his life was deluded that this is what his life was about. And I think to some degree we all about. And I think to some degree we all about. And I think to some degree we all do that. Yeah. Because careerism, do that. Yeah. Because careerism, do that. Yeah. Because careerism, finding the right person to marry. Of finding the right person to marry. Of finding the right person to marry. Of course marriage is important. Of course course marriage is important. Of course course marriage is important. Of course relationships are important. It matters relationships are important. It matters relationships are important. It matters with whom you spend your time and energy with whom you spend your time and energy with whom you spend your time and energy and what you invest in in terms of your and what you invest in in terms of your and what you invest in in terms of your values. At the same time, you know, we values. At the same time, you know, we values. At the same time, you know, we all have an appointment with with our all have an appointment with with our all have an appointment with with our own souls. And the question is, are we own souls. And the question is, are we own souls. And the question is, are we going to keep that appointment? Mine going to keep that appointment? Mine going to keep that appointment? Mine occurred when I had that depression. occurred when I had that depression. occurred when I had that depression. Ivon Ilich is in his dying moments. Ivon Ilich is in his dying moments. Ivon Ilich is in his dying moments. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, this is this is the human >> So, you know, this is this is the human >> So, you know, this is this is the human story. It's always been this way. But story. It's always been this way. But story. It's always been this way. But the more so today I think as people have the more so today I think as people have the more so today I think as people have gotten away from you know village life, gotten away from you know village life, gotten away from you know village life, agrarian life, the great rhythms of agrarian life, the great rhythms of agrarian life, the great rhythms of death and rebirth in nature and live in death and rebirth in nature and live in death and rebirth in nature and live in increasingly artificially constructed increasingly artificially constructed increasingly artificially constructed realities such as economics and realities such as economics and realities such as economics and increasingly artificial intelligence and increasingly artificial intelligence and increasingly artificial intelligence and so forth. And so forth. And so forth. And >> you know this uh tool that we're using >> you know this uh tool that we're using >> you know this uh tool that we're using [clears throat] right now that allows us [clears throat] right now that allows us [clears throat] right now that allows us to communicate across the ocean is to communicate across the ocean is to communicate across the ocean is astonishing. [snorts] Our ancestors astonishing. [snorts] Our ancestors astonishing. [snorts] Our ancestors couldn't have imagined such a thing. I couldn't have imagined such a thing. I couldn't have imagined such a thing. I have trouble imagining it. And um have trouble imagining it. And um have trouble imagining it. And um because I I'm old enough to remember because I I'm old enough to remember because I I'm old enough to remember when the milkman came with a horsedrawn when the milkman came with a horsedrawn when the milkman came with a horsedrawn buggy, believe it or not. buggy, believe it or not. buggy, believe it or not. >> And here we are talking to each other >> And here we are talking to each other >> And here we are talking to each other live. And and I treasure that. At the live. And and I treasure that. At the live. And and I treasure that. At the same time, you know, we increasingly same time, you know, we increasingly same time, you know, we increasingly live in in a world that's an artificial live in in a world that's an artificial live in in a world that's an artificial construct, you see. and does that it can construct, you see. and does that it can construct, you see. and does that it can link you to people and ideas and link you to people and ideas and link you to people and ideas and learning and experiences and I love to learning and experiences and I love to learning and experiences and I love to learn through the internet on the other learn through the internet on the other learn through the internet on the other hand as we all know it's mostly used for hand as we all know it's mostly used for hand as we all know it's mostly used for diversion diversion diversion the chief treatment plan of modernism the chief treatment plan of modernism the chief treatment plan of modernism and a modern culture for our existential and a modern culture for our existential and a modern culture for our existential dilemmas is diversion dilemmas is diversion dilemmas is diversion you know 247 you know 247 you know 247 um just turn on something plug in and it um just turn on something plug in and it um just turn on something plug in and it takes you away from whatever your takes you away from whatever your takes you away from whatever your distresses are distresses are distresses are >> or buy something >> or buy something >> or buy something >> or Yeah. consumerism. Exactly. Yeah. >> or Yeah. consumerism. Exactly. Yeah. >> or Yeah. consumerism. Exactly. Yeah. When the going gets tough, the tough go When the going gets tough, the tough go When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping. You know, Bla1 Pascal shopping. You know, Bla1 Pascal shopping. You know, Bla1 Pascal recognized this. He said, "Our chief recognized this. He said, "Our chief recognized this. He said, "Our chief difficulty, this is 17th century, is difficulty, this is 17th century, is difficulty, this is 17th century, is being alone with ourselves in our being alone with ourselves in our being alone with ourselves in our private chambers for just an hour a private chambers for just an hour a private chambers for just an hour a day." day." day." And he said that's why the court had to And he said that's why the court had to And he said that's why the court had to invent the gesture because even the king invent the gesture because even the king invent the gesture because even the king and queen with all of their abundance if and queen with all of their abundance if and queen with all of their abundance if they reflect on self on them their souls they reflect on self on them their souls they reflect on self on them their souls will grow miserable. Hence we have the will grow miserable. Hence we have the will grow miserable. Hence we have the gesture. gesture. gesture. Now that was in the 17th century and he Now that was in the 17th century and he Now that was in the 17th century and he recognized that tendency. Today it's recognized that tendency. Today it's recognized that tendency. Today it's ramped up the more so as we are ramped up the more so as we are ramped up the more so as we are disconnected from the tribal myths that disconnected from the tribal myths that disconnected from the tribal myths that uh when they were functioning linked uh when they were functioning linked uh when they were functioning linked people to a bigger story you know are people to a bigger story you know are people to a bigger story you know are are linked to the gods are linked to are linked to the gods are linked to are linked to the gods are linked to questions like well what happens to us questions like well what happens to us questions like well what happens to us when we die you know what what is the when we die you know what what is the when we die you know what what is the will of the gods for us and so forth will of the gods for us and so forth will of the gods for us and so forth that linked us to nature how do we live that linked us to nature how do we live that linked us to nature how do we live in harmony with nature rather than as a in harmony with nature rather than as a in harmony with nature rather than as a predator. Thirdly, the the the the predator. Thirdly, the the the the predator. Thirdly, the the the the mystery of tribal identity. Who are my mystery of tribal identity. Who are my mystery of tribal identity. Who are my people? people? people? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, I believe it's in the UK and I >> You know, I believe it's in the UK and I >> You know, I believe it's in the UK and I know in Japan as well, there are cabinet know in Japan as well, there are cabinet know in Japan as well, there are cabinet level ministries today on loneliness. level ministries today on loneliness. level ministries today on loneliness. And for all of this connectivity, And for all of this connectivity, And for all of this connectivity, loneliness is growing and growing and loneliness is growing and growing and loneliness is growing and growing and growing. And the surgeon general of the growing. And the surgeon general of the growing. And the surgeon general of the United States said in a previous United States said in a previous United States said in a previous administration administration administration that one of the chief causes of mental that one of the chief causes of mental that one of the chief causes of mental illness and and physiological problems illness and and physiological problems illness and and physiological problems as you were just alluding as you were just alluding as you were just alluding uh comes from loneliness. uh comes from loneliness. uh comes from loneliness. >> Yeah. Well, this is the problem James >> Yeah. Well, this is the problem James >> Yeah. Well, this is the problem James with the medical profession the way it with the medical profession the way it with the medical profession the way it is today or one of the problems is that is today or one of the problems is that is today or one of the problems is that you you know you mentioned your own you you know you mentioned your own you you know you mentioned your own depression. Okay. And we know that the depression. Okay. And we know that the depression. Okay. And we know that the diagnosis of mental health problems is diagnosis of mental health problems is diagnosis of mental health problems is rising rapidly in many countries. rising rapidly in many countries. rising rapidly in many countries. >> Now, if you take a step back or if I >> Now, if you take a step back or if I >> Now, if you take a step back or if I take a step back and give you my take a step back and give you my take a step back and give you my perspective, perspective, perspective, I've actually always had a problem with I've actually always had a problem with I've actually always had a problem with how we deal with depression in medicine. how we deal with depression in medicine. how we deal with depression in medicine. First of all, I'll be honest. I don't First of all, I'll be honest. I don't First of all, I'll be honest. I don't really like the label depression because really like the label depression because really like the label depression because you could have 10 people coming into you could have 10 people coming into you could have 10 people coming into your consultation room all who have your consultation room all who have your consultation room all who have symptoms that are consistent with a symptoms that are consistent with a symptoms that are consistent with a diagnosis of depression diagnosis of depression diagnosis of depression >> and they could have 10 completely >> and they could have 10 completely >> and they could have 10 completely different causes. Right? So, I find the different causes. Right? So, I find the different causes. Right? So, I find the label quite reductive personally. Okay? label quite reductive personally. Okay? label quite reductive personally. Okay? I appreciate other people may not. I've I appreciate other people may not. I've I appreciate other people may not. I've never liked labeling my patients with never liked labeling my patients with never liked labeling my patients with the term depression because once you the term depression because once you the term depression because once you label someone that can often become label someone that can often become label someone that can often become their identity and then once it's their their identity and then once it's their their identity and then once it's their identity it can be very hard sometimes identity it can be very hard sometimes identity it can be very hard sometimes to break out. The way I've always looked to break out. The way I've always looked to break out. The way I've always looked at patients who come in with these at patients who come in with these at patients who come in with these symptoms symptoms symptoms is that these symptoms are a signal. is that these symptoms are a signal. is that these symptoms are a signal. They are a signal to me that there's They are a signal to me that there's They are a signal to me that there's something misaligned in their life. something misaligned in their life. something misaligned in their life. Instead of calling it depression, for me Instead of calling it depression, for me Instead of calling it depression, for me it was almost like, well, what's going it was almost like, well, what's going it was almost like, well, what's going on? Why is this person showing these on? Why is this person showing these on? Why is this person showing these symptoms? Have they moved away from symptoms? Have they moved away from symptoms? Have they moved away from their family and friends for a job in their family and friends for a job in their family and friends for a job in the city and they're lonely? Are they the city and they're lonely? Are they the city and they're lonely? Are they doing a job that they can't stand? So, doing a job that they can't stand? So, doing a job that they can't stand? So, they feel empty inside, you know? Are they feel empty inside, you know? Are they feel empty inside, you know? Are they not getting out enough in nature they not getting out enough in nature they not getting out enough in nature and eating well and they're just stuck and eating well and they're just stuck and eating well and they're just stuck indoors in artificial light and on indoors in artificial light and on indoors in artificial light and on screens? Maybe their symptoms are screens? Maybe their symptoms are screens? Maybe their symptoms are completely appropriate responses to the completely appropriate responses to the completely appropriate responses to the inputs that are coming into their being. inputs that are coming into their being. inputs that are coming into their being. Like for you, you know, James, I don't Like for you, you know, James, I don't Like for you, you know, James, I don't know the ins and outs of your story from know the ins and outs of your story from know the ins and outs of your story from but from what you're saying in midlife, but from what you're saying in midlife, but from what you're saying in midlife, you had a very successful career as a you had a very successful career as a you had a very successful career as a tenure professor, good income, tenure professor, good income, tenure professor, good income, guaranteed job for life. everyone around guaranteed job for life. everyone around guaranteed job for life. everyone around you saying, "What a great job." But you you saying, "What a great job." But you you saying, "What a great job." But you knew inside that wasn't what was meant knew inside that wasn't what was meant knew inside that wasn't what was meant for you. So maybe your depression was for you. So maybe your depression was for you. So maybe your depression was simply your body saying, "Hey, James, simply your body saying, "Hey, James, simply your body saying, "Hey, James, you can't keep going like this. There's you can't keep going like this. There's you can't keep going like this. There's a problem here." The depression was a problem here." The depression was a problem here." The depression was there to alert you. And the truth is, there to alert you. And the truth is, there to alert you. And the truth is, James, I've always found that approach James, I've always found that approach James, I've always found that approach very, very helpful with people because very, very helpful with people because very, very helpful with people because it really empowers me and empowers them it really empowers me and empowers them it really empowers me and empowers them to start figuring out together, well, to start figuring out together, well, to start figuring out together, well, what might be going on in your life that what might be going on in your life that what might be going on in your life that may be causing this. I don't think may be causing this. I don't think may be causing this. I don't think that's how most doctors are trained to that's how most doctors are trained to that's how most doctors are trained to look at this, unfortunately. We're look at this, unfortunately. We're look at this, unfortunately. We're trained to say, you've got depression. trained to say, you've got depression. trained to say, you've got depression. Here's an anti-depressant. And I think, Here's an anti-depressant. And I think, Here's an anti-depressant. And I think, well, what on earth does that teach an well, what on earth does that teach an well, what on earth does that teach an individual? How do they learn about individual? How do they learn about individual? How do they learn about their life then? What happens if this their life then? What happens if this their life then? What happens if this happens again 10 years? What they going happens again 10 years? What they going happens again 10 years? What they going to go back on that pill? Well, what if to go back on that pill? Well, what if to go back on that pill? Well, what if we could teach people the life skills, we could teach people the life skills, we could teach people the life skills, the learning so that they then, you the learning so that they then, you the learning so that they then, you know, have these tools to progress know, have these tools to progress know, have these tools to progress through life. Hence my comment to you through life. Hence my comment to you through life. Hence my comment to you before that I find more and more I'm before that I find more and more I'm before that I find more and more I'm interested in psychology interested in psychology interested in psychology as opposed to what I was taught at as opposed to what I was taught at as opposed to what I was taught at medical school. medical school. medical school. >> Sure. Well, in the last few paragraphs, >> Sure. Well, in the last few paragraphs, >> Sure. Well, in the last few paragraphs, you've exhibited a lovely u you've exhibited a lovely u you've exhibited a lovely u psychological attitude, and that's psychological attitude, and that's psychological attitude, and that's what's missing. Part of what's happened what's missing. Part of what's happened what's missing. Part of what's happened to mainstream psychology, ironically, to mainstream psychology, ironically, to mainstream psychology, ironically, has been the medicalization where you has been the medicalization where you has been the medicalization where you think about disease and cure or disease think about disease and cure or disease think about disease and cure or disease and treatment plan, which from time to and treatment plan, which from time to and treatment plan, which from time to time has its usefulness. But you're time has its usefulness. But you're time has its usefulness. But you're right, it's often missing the big right, it's often missing the big right, it's often missing the big question. But we need to distinguish question. But we need to distinguish question. But we need to distinguish depressions. There are biologically depressions. There are biologically depressions. There are biologically driven depression such as bipolar for driven depression such as bipolar for driven depression such as bipolar for example and major depressive disorder. example and major depressive disorder. example and major depressive disorder. And I wouldn't rule out medication for And I wouldn't rule out medication for And I wouldn't rule out medication for certain individuals. I also know for the certain individuals. I also know for the certain individuals. I also know for the great majority of people the great majority of people the great majority of people the antid-depressant is not really antid-depressant is not really antid-depressant is not really addressing the issues in their life. You addressing the issues in their life. You addressing the issues in their life. You just gave some good examples of the just gave some good examples of the just gave some good examples of the dislocation that has occurred in their dislocation that has occurred in their dislocation that has occurred in their world [snorts] world [snorts] world [snorts] and out of which their psyche again I and out of which their psyche again I and out of which their psyche again I put it this way has withdrawn its put it this way has withdrawn its put it this way has withdrawn its approval and support which is you know a approval and support which is you know a approval and support which is you know a way of saying hey something here within way of saying hey something here within way of saying hey something here within you is being violated. Why don't we pay you is being violated. Why don't we pay you is being violated. Why don't we pay attention to that? What is it asking of attention to that? What is it asking of attention to that? What is it asking of you? That's a different kind of question you? That's a different kind of question you? That's a different kind of question which is wholly ignored in most medicine which is wholly ignored in most medicine which is wholly ignored in most medicine and and most psychology as a matter of and and most psychology as a matter of and and most psychology as a matter of fact. So there are times when there are fact. So there are times when there are fact. So there are times when there are appropriate reactive depressions. If you appropriate reactive depressions. If you appropriate reactive depressions. If you know if if my wife dies, know if if my wife dies, know if if my wife dies, I will be depressed for a while. That's I will be depressed for a while. That's I will be depressed for a while. That's appropriate where all of the energy appropriate where all of the energy appropriate where all of the energy invested of that now comes rushing back invested of that now comes rushing back invested of that now comes rushing back and inverts. I'll carry on. In time it and inverts. I'll carry on. In time it and inverts. I'll carry on. In time it will lift a little bit but that will will lift a little bit but that will will lift a little bit but that will always be and attendant to that is of always be and attendant to that is of always be and attendant to that is of course appropriate sadness and sorrow course appropriate sadness and sorrow course appropriate sadness and sorrow and loss and grieving. and loss and grieving. and loss and grieving. So and I'm depressed at times by the So and I'm depressed at times by the So and I'm depressed at times by the injustices of the world. I should be. injustices of the world. I should be. injustices of the world. I should be. I'm also angry about some of those and I I'm also angry about some of those and I I'm also angry about some of those and I should be you see but that again has an should be you see but that again has an should be you see but that again has an identifiable cause most of which and you identifiable cause most of which and you identifiable cause most of which and you were suggesting this is again that were suggesting this is again that were suggesting this is again that something that wishes to live or something that wishes to live or something that wishes to live or something that wishes expression through something that wishes expression through something that wishes expression through us is being ignored, suppressed, us is being ignored, suppressed, us is being ignored, suppressed, repressed, violated in some way. find repressed, violated in some way. find repressed, violated in some way. find out what that is. out what that is. out what that is. >> One of the simplest ways to improve your >> One of the simplest ways to improve your >> One of the simplest ways to improve your whole body health is to start with your whole body health is to start with your whole body health is to start with your feet. 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You know, just to ask yourself, You know, just to ask yourself, You know, just to ask yourself, what happened to that creative, what happened to that creative, what happened to that creative, spontaneous, bubbly little child that spontaneous, bubbly little child that spontaneous, bubbly little child that most of us were? How did we get most of us were? How did we get most of us were? How did we get civilized? You know, how do we get so civilized? You know, how do we get so civilized? You know, how do we get so much of that good juice pushed down? The much of that good juice pushed down? The much of that good juice pushed down? The joy of learning, you know, children are joy of learning, you know, children are joy of learning, you know, children are busy learning. They're they're you know busy learning. They're they're you know busy learning. They're they're you know they can be frightened by other big they can be frightened by other big they can be frightened by other big people or big events obviously but at people or big events obviously but at people or big events obviously but at the same time at heart they're saying the same time at heart they're saying the same time at heart they're saying hey this is interesting this is hey this is interesting this is hey this is interesting this is marvelous this is this is look at this marvelous this is this is look at this marvelous this is this is look at this over here that's who we are as an animal over here that's who we are as an animal over here that's who we are as an animal it's like the the the curious animal it's like the the the curious animal it's like the the the curious animal and I think as long as we can give some and I think as long as we can give some and I think as long as we can give some genuine energy to pursuing genuine energy to pursuing genuine energy to pursuing what stirs our curios iosity. what stirs our curios iosity. what stirs our curios iosity. We're going to be living a vital life We're going to be living a vital life We're going to be living a vital life even with these peripheral so-called even with these peripheral so-called even with these peripheral so-called depressions on on the side. depressions on on the side. depressions on on the side. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> you there there are things to be >> you there there are things to be >> you there there are things to be depressed about in this world that's depressed about in this world that's depressed about in this world that's quite rational and humanitarian, quite rational and humanitarian, quite rational and humanitarian, >> but that doesn't make you a depressed >> but that doesn't make you a depressed >> but that doesn't make you a depressed person. person. person. >> And throwing pills at that or simply >> And throwing pills at that or simply >> And throwing pills at that or simply saying, you know, here's the three or saying, you know, here's the three or saying, you know, here's the three or four point steps here is is ultimately four point steps here is is ultimately four point steps here is is ultimately delusional and and doesn't work over delusional and and doesn't work over delusional and and doesn't work over time. time. time. It's interesting that earlier on in our It's interesting that earlier on in our It's interesting that earlier on in our conversation, James, you mentioned that conversation, James, you mentioned that conversation, James, you mentioned that you had to learn these truths the hard you had to learn these truths the hard you had to learn these truths the hard way. So, I guess the followup question way. So, I guess the followup question way. So, I guess the followup question is, is it possible to learn these things is, is it possible to learn these things is, is it possible to learn these things the easy way? the easy way? the easy way? >> Well, I would like to think so. I don't >> Well, I would like to think so. I don't >> Well, I would like to think so. I don't tend to meet people who've had that tend to meet people who've had that tend to meet people who've had that privilege. And of course, maybe they privilege. And of course, maybe they privilege. And of course, maybe they don't show up for therapy. don't show up for therapy. don't show up for therapy. >> Yeah. But uh I I I think if people I >> Yeah. But uh I I I think if people I >> Yeah. But uh I I I think if people I mean look it goes a long way to or if mean look it goes a long way to or if mean look it goes a long way to or if the child felt reasonably safe, secure, the child felt reasonably safe, secure, the child felt reasonably safe, secure, and truly valued for itself. That's a and truly valued for itself. That's a and truly valued for itself. That's a huge advantage. huge advantage. huge advantage. That sounds so obvious, but I don't see That sounds so obvious, but I don't see That sounds so obvious, but I don't see that that often. We, you know, we have that that often. We, you know, we have that that often. We, you know, we have to remember who makes babies young to remember who makes babies young to remember who makes babies young people struggling with their own issues, people struggling with their own issues, people struggling with their own issues, trying to break away from their own trying to break away from their own trying to break away from their own issues of their history and not really issues of their history and not really issues of their history and not really knowing what they do, what they're knowing what they do, what they're knowing what they do, what they're doing. And that's why sometimes doing. And that's why sometimes doing. And that's why sometimes grandparents or aunts and uncles can be grandparents or aunts and uncles can be grandparents or aunts and uncles can be people who are playing a more positive people who are playing a more positive people who are playing a more positive role in the life of the child because role in the life of the child because role in the life of the child because they've had some maturation go on. they've had some maturation go on. they've had some maturation go on. They've had some distancing. they They've had some distancing. they They've had some distancing. they intuitively know what that child needs intuitively know what that child needs intuitively know what that child needs which is affirmation and support. So um which is affirmation and support. So um which is affirmation and support. So um it it would be it it would be it it would be life would be easier. You know it was life would be easier. You know it was life would be easier. You know it was interesting. I was being interviewed interesting. I was being interviewed interesting. I was being interviewed about I I want to say two years ago, about I I want to say two years ago, about I I want to say two years ago, maybe three now, by someone in London maybe three now, by someone in London maybe three now, by someone in London who said at the end of his program, he who said at the end of his program, he who said at the end of his program, he always asked people, "Whom would you always asked people, "Whom would you always asked people, "Whom would you wish to speak to wish to speak to wish to speak to in history if you could talk to anyone?" in history if you could talk to anyone?" in history if you could talk to anyone?" Well, I I grew up in a town that was the Well, I I grew up in a town that was the Well, I I grew up in a town that was the home and burial place of Abraham home and burial place of Abraham home and burial place of Abraham Lincoln. So, the first thought that Lincoln. So, the first thought that Lincoln. So, the first thought that popped up on my inner screen was Abraham popped up on my inner screen was Abraham popped up on my inner screen was Abraham Lincoln. I wanted to show him what had Lincoln. I wanted to show him what had Lincoln. I wanted to show him what had happened in the world. you know, so I happened in the world. you know, so I happened in the world. you know, so I could imagine he'd be curious. could imagine he'd be curious. could imagine he'd be curious. But then I thought, and this was But then I thought, and this was But then I thought, and this was happening in just a few seconds, happening in just a few seconds, happening in just a few seconds, I'd like to go back and talk to myself I'd like to go back and talk to myself I'd like to go back and talk to myself as a 10-year-old as a 10-year-old as a 10-year-old and say to that 10-year-old, you know, and say to that 10-year-old, you know, and say to that 10-year-old, you know, it's going to be all right. Don't don't it's going to be all right. Don't don't it's going to be all right. Don't don't worry so much. Um, things are going to worry so much. Um, things are going to worry so much. Um, things are going to work out. A lot of things that you are work out. A lot of things that you are work out. A lot of things that you are curious about are you're going to find curious about are you're going to find curious about are you're going to find out about these things. you you're going out about these things. you you're going out about these things. you you're going to have a an interesting life. You're to have a an interesting life. You're to have a an interesting life. You're going to have the opportunity to travel going to have the opportunity to travel going to have the opportunity to travel and and meet some interesting people and and and meet some interesting people and and and meet some interesting people and learn some interesting things. And you learn some interesting things. And you learn some interesting things. And you know, you're you're not here to please know, you're you're not here to please know, you're you're not here to please everybody, which was a message I got. everybody, which was a message I got. everybody, which was a message I got. You're you're here to find your path and You're you're here to find your path and You're you're here to find your path and live it and that will work best for you. live it and that will work best for you. live it and that will work best for you. In other words, what I'd want to do is In other words, what I'd want to do is In other words, what I'd want to do is affirm to that child what you think, affirm to that child what you think, affirm to that child what you think, feel, and believe is is right for you. feel, and believe is is right for you. feel, and believe is is right for you. >> Treat others with respect, obviously. >> Treat others with respect, obviously. >> Treat others with respect, obviously. At the same time, trust your your own At the same time, trust your your own At the same time, trust your your own journey. I think that would have been journey. I think that would have been journey. I think that would have been revolutionary. revolutionary. revolutionary. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I wish we could say that to every child >> I wish we could say that to every child >> I wish we could say that to every child at some point. So, let's talk about at some point. So, let's talk about at some point. So, let's talk about parenting. Um because as a father parenting. Um because as a father parenting. Um because as a father myself, I would say that one of the myself, I would say that one of the myself, I would say that one of the biggest biggest biggest motivators motivators motivators for me to excavate my inner world and for me to excavate my inner world and for me to excavate my inner world and make peace with it was becoming a parent make peace with it was becoming a parent make peace with it was becoming a parent because I I didn't want because I I didn't want because I I didn't want my conditionings my conditionings my conditionings and I'm not blaming anyone for these to and I'm not blaming anyone for these to and I'm not blaming anyone for these to be clear. My my parents were amazing and be clear. My my parents were amazing and be clear. My my parents were amazing and did the best they could for me based did the best they could for me based did the best they could for me based upon their their childhoods and their upon their their childhoods and their upon their their childhoods and their understanding of the world. Right. understanding of the world. Right. understanding of the world. Right. >> But I also recognized for all the >> But I also recognized for all the >> But I also recognized for all the benefits of the way I was parented, benefits of the way I was parented, benefits of the way I was parented, there were some things that I would there were some things that I would there were some things that I would probably choose to change for my own probably choose to change for my own probably choose to change for my own children. And so, you know, like many children. And so, you know, like many children. And so, you know, like many Asian immigrant families, there is a Asian immigrant families, there is a Asian immigrant families, there is a huge pressure put on us huge pressure put on us huge pressure put on us for academic achievement. And it's a for academic achievement. And it's a for academic achievement. And it's a little bit of a cliche, but I'm sure little bit of a cliche, but I'm sure little bit of a cliche, but I'm sure you've seen many, many clients over the you've seen many, many clients over the you've seen many, many clients over the years like this. You know, it is not an years like this. You know, it is not an years like this. You know, it is not an exaggeration to say that you're often exaggeration to say that you're often exaggeration to say that you're often given three career options. Doctor, given three career options. Doctor, given three career options. Doctor, lawyer, or engineer. And it completely lawyer, or engineer. And it completely lawyer, or engineer. And it completely makes sense when you think about your makes sense when you think about your makes sense when you think about your parents' lives. They've had struggle, parents' lives. They've had struggle, parents' lives. They've had struggle, discrimination, they've come to a new discrimination, they've come to a new discrimination, they've come to a new country. Of course, in their head, the country. Of course, in their head, the country. Of course, in their head, the way that their children don't face those way that their children don't face those way that their children don't face those struggles is to be a straight A student struggles is to be a straight A student struggles is to be a straight A student and get one of these. so-called and get one of these. so-called and get one of these. so-called respectable jobs. But of course, we've respectable jobs. But of course, we've respectable jobs. But of course, we've also said that you've seen many doctors also said that you've seen many doctors also said that you've seen many doctors and lawyers who end up in the therapy and lawyers who end up in the therapy and lawyers who end up in the therapy room with problems later on in life room with problems later on in life room with problems later on in life because it wasn't the job for them. So, because it wasn't the job for them. So, because it wasn't the job for them. So, as a parent myself, as a parent myself, as a parent myself, one of the things I've tried my best to one of the things I've tried my best to one of the things I've tried my best to do is to make sure my children feel do is to make sure my children feel do is to make sure my children feel safe, secure, and that they feel that safe, secure, and that they feel that safe, secure, and that they feel that they are loved irrespective they are loved irrespective they are loved irrespective of their achievement. of their achievement. of their achievement. From your decades of experience, From your decades of experience, From your decades of experience, for any parents listening, what would for any parents listening, what would for any parents listening, what would you say are the key things that we you say are the key things that we you say are the key things that we should be thinking about to should be thinking about to should be thinking about to increase the chances that our kids are increase the chances that our kids are increase the chances that our kids are going to live meaningful lives and I going to live meaningful lives and I going to live meaningful lives and I guess therefore happy lives. guess therefore happy lives. guess therefore happy lives. >> Well, first of all, your example gives a >> Well, first of all, your example gives a >> Well, first of all, your example gives a beautiful illustration of the logic that beautiful illustration of the logic that beautiful illustration of the logic that our grandparents and our parents served. our grandparents and our parents served. our grandparents and our parents served. There's there's no question out of their There's there's no question out of their There's there's no question out of their experience they did what made sense to experience they did what made sense to experience they did what made sense to them their world at that time which is them their world at that time which is them their world at that time which is again depending to some degree on their again depending to some degree on their again depending to some degree on their environmental circumstances rather than environmental circumstances rather than environmental circumstances rather than what's inherent to their son. You see what's inherent to their son. You see what's inherent to their son. You see now that was inadvertent. You know they now that was inadvertent. You know they now that was inadvertent. You know they can love the child and still want to can love the child and still want to can love the child and still want to impose on them whatever that template impose on them whatever that template impose on them whatever that template may be. Um and and by the way, part of may be. Um and and by the way, part of may be. Um and and by the way, part of what we can communicate to our children what we can communicate to our children what we can communicate to our children is sometimes if you want to open a door, is sometimes if you want to open a door, is sometimes if you want to open a door, you will have to pay your dues. Don't you will have to pay your dues. Don't you will have to pay your dues. Don't expect this is about uh sitting around expect this is about uh sitting around expect this is about uh sitting around and waiting for someone to show up and and waiting for someone to show up and and waiting for someone to show up and give you what you want, you may have to give you what you want, you may have to give you what you want, you may have to go earn it. So I mean this is not about go earn it. So I mean this is not about go earn it. So I mean this is not about trying to make the path easy. The path trying to make the path easy. The path trying to make the path easy. The path will be whatever it is. And part of what will be whatever it is. And part of what will be whatever it is. And part of what we can do is be realistic about that. we can do is be realistic about that. we can do is be realistic about that. But the biggest issue is most of us But the biggest issue is most of us But the biggest issue is most of us don't have permission to really feel don't have permission to really feel don't have permission to really feel what we're feeling, desire what we're what we're feeling, desire what we're what we're feeling, desire what we're desiring, and make the choices necessary desiring, and make the choices necessary desiring, and make the choices necessary to try to honor that. My my my parents to try to honor that. My my my parents to try to honor that. My my my parents were workingass people. My father, this were workingass people. My father, this were workingass people. My father, this is before child labor laws, was pulled is before child labor laws, was pulled is before child labor laws, was pulled out of grade school, primary school, out of grade school, primary school, out of grade school, primary school, sent to work. At age 13, his life was sent to work. At age 13, his life was sent to work. At age 13, his life was over. He worked in a factory the rest of over. He worked in a factory the rest of over. He worked in a factory the rest of his life. My mother was an orphan and his life. My mother was an orphan and his life. My mother was an orphan and her Swedish father was killed in a coal her Swedish father was killed in a coal her Swedish father was killed in a coal mine. She she barely knew him. They grew mine. She she barely knew him. They grew mine. She she barely knew him. They grew up in abject poverty and their message up in abject poverty and their message up in abject poverty and their message to me was well intended. They felt to me was well intended. They felt to me was well intended. They felt crushed by the circumstances of life and crushed by the circumstances of life and crushed by the circumstances of life and and their message was quite different and their message was quite different and their message was quite different than yours but it was coming out of than yours but it was coming out of than yours but it was coming out of their real experience. their real experience. their real experience. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Don't go out there. It's just too much. >> Don't go out there. It's just too much. >> Don't go out there. It's just too much. Stay here. circle the wagons and we'll Stay here. circle the wagons and we'll Stay here. circle the wagons and we'll try to take care of each other. And and try to take care of each other. And and try to take care of each other. And and their advice was rather than work in the their advice was rather than work in the their advice was rather than work in the factory which was dirty and dangerous factory which was dirty and dangerous factory which was dirty and dangerous and hot lit literally and I worked there and hot lit literally and I worked there and hot lit literally and I worked there when I was going through college. Shards when I was going through college. Shards when I was going through college. Shards of metal flying everywhere building of metal flying everywhere building of metal flying everywhere building tractors and grers. tractors and grers. tractors and grers. Um get try to get a job at the telephone Um get try to get a job at the telephone Um get try to get a job at the telephone company cuz there you can wear clean company cuz there you can wear clean company cuz there you can wear clean clothes. It's safe. and most of all clothes. It's safe. and most of all clothes. It's safe. and most of all security because um they've gone through security because um they've gone through security because um they've gone through the depression and will always need the depression and will always need the depression and will always need telephones. So that's going to be a job telephones. So that's going to be a job telephones. So that's going to be a job that's there for your lifetime. You see, that's there for your lifetime. You see, that's there for your lifetime. You see, and that was good advice based on their and that was good advice based on their and that was good advice based on their experience and it would have killed me, experience and it would have killed me, experience and it would have killed me, [laughter] right? And so something in me [laughter] right? And so something in me [laughter] right? And so something in me knew I had to leave. And I don't know if knew I had to leave. And I don't know if knew I had to leave. And I don't know if this is this is a heartache for me. I this is this is a heartache for me. I this is this is a heartache for me. I don't think they ever understood don't think they ever understood don't think they ever understood why I left. They knew I cared for them. why I left. They knew I cared for them. why I left. They knew I cared for them. I knew they cared for me deeply, but I I knew they cared for me deeply, but I I knew they cared for me deeply, but I had to leave. And for me, I happened to had to leave. And for me, I happened to had to leave. And for me, I happened to be born into a culture that allowed a be born into a culture that allowed a be born into a culture that allowed a poor child to go and get an education. poor child to go and get an education. poor child to go and get an education. For me, the ticket was education. And as For me, the ticket was education. And as For me, the ticket was education. And as you was for you in a quite different you was for you in a quite different you was for you in a quite different context and for that, I'm I'm very context and for that, I'm I'm very context and for that, I'm I'm very grateful. So in some way if a parent grateful. So in some way if a parent grateful. So in some way if a parent could say in so many words could say in so many words could say in so many words who you are who you are who you are is terrific. Who's who you are is what is terrific. Who's who you are is what is terrific. Who's who you are is what we value and love. we value and love. we value and love. You're here not to please us. Now not You're here not to please us. Now not You're here not to please us. Now not many parents can really say that love many parents can really say that love many parents can really say that love becomes conditional. I want you to grow becomes conditional. I want you to grow becomes conditional. I want you to grow up and by and large espouse my values. up and by and large espouse my values. up and by and large espouse my values. This is sometimes communicated overtly. This is sometimes communicated overtly. This is sometimes communicated overtly. Many times it's covert. I want you to Many times it's covert. I want you to Many times it's covert. I want you to grow up espousing my values. Maybe live grow up espousing my values. Maybe live grow up espousing my values. Maybe live in this neighborhood. Uh may somebody in this neighborhood. Uh may somebody in this neighborhood. Uh may somebody that's we would approve of uh and have a that's we would approve of uh and have a that's we would approve of uh and have a lifestyle maybe religious values, lifestyle maybe religious values, lifestyle maybe religious values, cultural values that are consist. In cultural values that are consist. In cultural values that are consist. In other words, we would love to have a other words, we would love to have a other words, we would love to have a replication of us. Right? That's the replication of us. Right? That's the replication of us. Right? That's the unconscious narcissism of the parent. unconscious narcissism of the parent. unconscious narcissism of the parent. We'd like you to become something like We'd like you to become something like We'd like you to become something like us, which is of course our issue, not us, which is of course our issue, not us, which is of course our issue, not you. you. you. >> And and can you be explicit, James, >> And and can you be explicit, James, >> And and can you be explicit, James, because there'll be many people because there'll be many people because there'll be many people listening who probably fall into that listening who probably fall into that listening who probably fall into that trap. What are the consequences trap. What are the consequences trap. What are the consequences do you believe on that child if that's do you believe on that child if that's do you believe on that child if that's the messaging they get? the messaging they get? the messaging they get? >> Well, the consequences are a huge >> Well, the consequences are a huge >> Well, the consequences are a huge burden. either I succumb to that and burden. either I succumb to that and burden. either I succumb to that and most children do or if I break away from most children do or if I break away from most children do or if I break away from that there's a significant price up to that there's a significant price up to that there's a significant price up to and including alienation from those and including alienation from those and including alienation from those parents you see and I mean I've known parents you see and I mean I've known parents you see and I mean I've known people who well for example if you're people who well for example if you're people who well for example if you're young and gay many parents have said young and gay many parents have said young and gay many parents have said you're not welcome in our house well you're not welcome in our house well you're not welcome in our house well this is something that's innate in their this is something that's innate in their this is something that's innate in their nature and you're you're you're saying nature and you're you're you're saying nature and you're you're you're saying you know your soul doesn't matter to us, you know your soul doesn't matter to us, you know your soul doesn't matter to us, you have to conform to our cultural you have to conform to our cultural you have to conform to our cultural values and their limitations. values and their limitations. values and their limitations. Or let's say you marry outside your Or let's say you marry outside your Or let's say you marry outside your religion. See, these these defining religion. See, these these defining religion. See, these these defining bonds have diminished somewhat over the bonds have diminished somewhat over the bonds have diminished somewhat over the last few generations, which is a good last few generations, which is a good last few generations, which is a good thing. For example, thing. For example, thing. For example, my parents and certainly my grandparents my parents and certainly my grandparents my parents and certainly my grandparents were hugely governed by gender role were hugely governed by gender role were hugely governed by gender role expectations. expectations. expectations. you right there is an example. If you're you right there is an example. If you're you right there is an example. If you're a man, this is what you're supposed to a man, this is what you're supposed to a man, this is what you're supposed to do and be. And you step outside of that, do and be. And you step outside of that, do and be. And you step outside of that, there's going to be a price for that there's going to be a price for that there's going to be a price for that ridicule or shunning of some kind. If ridicule or shunning of some kind. If ridicule or shunning of some kind. If you're a woman, this is your role. And you're a woman, this is your role. And you're a woman, this is your role. And that's totally constrictive. Now, we've that's totally constrictive. Now, we've that's totally constrictive. Now, we've challenged those challenged those challenged those definitions. Those are cultural definitions. Those are cultural definitions. Those are cultural contrivances. They are cultural contrivances. They are cultural contrivances. They are cultural constructs. constructs. constructs. And we've deconstructed some of them, And we've deconstructed some of them, And we've deconstructed some of them, but they linger. but they linger. but they linger. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so it's the conditionality that the >> And so it's the conditionality that the >> And so it's the conditionality that the child has to face. In other words, if I child has to face. In other words, if I child has to face. In other words, if I want your love and support, parent, I want your love and support, parent, I want your love and support, parent, I have to meet your conditions or I have have to meet your conditions or I have have to meet your conditions or I have to spend my life struggling against to spend my life struggling against to spend my life struggling against them. Every child needs to hear and more them. Every child needs to hear and more them. Every child needs to hear and more than once who you are is terrific. than once who you are is terrific. than once who you are is terrific. You're not here to please me. I'm You're not here to please me. I'm You're not here to please me. I'm addressing that issue in my life, child. addressing that issue in my life, child. addressing that issue in my life, child. Right. Right. Right. know that I always have an opinion. You know that I always have an opinion. You know that I always have an opinion. You want my opinion, you know, just ask. want my opinion, you know, just ask. want my opinion, you know, just ask. You'll get my opinion. But you're not You'll get my opinion. But you're not You'll get my opinion. But you're not here to agree with it. You're going to here to agree with it. You're going to here to agree with it. You're going to be cared for regardless. be cared for regardless. be cared for regardless. >> You always have a home here, someone who >> You always have a home here, someone who >> You always have a home here, someone who cares and loves you, but you're here to cares and loves you, but you're here to cares and loves you, but you're here to live your own journey. Sounds so simple. live your own journey. Sounds so simple. live your own journey. Sounds so simple. Parents tend not to be able to give that Parents tend not to be able to give that Parents tend not to be able to give that to the child when they don't have it to the child when they don't have it to the child when they don't have it themselves. themselves. themselves. Only when you've been able to find your Only when you've been able to find your Only when you've been able to find your path can you really see the importance path can you really see the importance path can you really see the importance of that freedom for your own child. of that freedom for your own child. of that freedom for your own child. >> Or as you've said before, your >> Or as you've said before, your >> Or as you've said before, your relationship with others can only ever relationship with others can only ever relationship with others can only ever be as good as your relationship with be as good as your relationship with be as good as your relationship with yourself. yourself. yourself. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. >> And then there's this wider point for >> And then there's this wider point for >> And then there's this wider point for me, James, which I was thinking about me, James, which I was thinking about me, James, which I was thinking about this morning. If you or me were born in this morning. If you or me were born in this morning. If you or me were born in a different country, a different country, a different country, right? Maybe I was born in Ethiopia and right? Maybe I was born in Ethiopia and right? Maybe I was born in Ethiopia and my parents were farmers. my parents were farmers. my parents were farmers. My viewpoint of the world, my belief My viewpoint of the world, my belief My viewpoint of the world, my belief system about who I am, what I need to system about who I am, what I need to system about who I am, what I need to do, what constitutes a meaningful life do, what constitutes a meaningful life do, what constitutes a meaningful life will be of course influenced will be of course influenced will be of course influenced by that environment. So when we think by that environment. So when we think by that environment. So when we think about our psyche about our psyche about our psyche and what is our psyche calling us to do, and what is our psyche calling us to do, and what is our psyche calling us to do, asking us to do, asking us to do, asking us to do, surely to a certain degree, surely to a certain degree, surely to a certain degree, my life of meaning is going to be my life of meaning is going to be my life of meaning is going to be dependent on where I live and where I dependent on where I live and where I dependent on where I live and where I was brought up. was brought up. was brought up. >> Absolutely. Now that's why I make the >> Absolutely. Now that's why I make the >> Absolutely. Now that's why I make the distinction between the self capital S distinction between the self capital S distinction between the self capital S which is that sort of the driving energy which is that sort of the driving energy which is that sort of the driving energy that is seeking its expression in the that is seeking its expression in the that is seeking its expression in the world and it's a verb again it's the world and it's a verb again it's the world and it's a verb again it's the self is seeking something it's it's self is seeking something it's it's self is seeking something it's it's solving it's not an entity it's an solving it's not an entity it's an solving it's not an entity it's an energy system and our sense of self so energy system and our sense of self so energy system and our sense of self so if you're born in Ethiopia in an if you're born in Ethiopia in an if you're born in Ethiopia in an agrarian society your sense of self is agrarian society your sense of self is agrarian society your sense of self is going to be quite different now the going to be quite different now the going to be quite different now the question is to what degree Does the question is to what degree Does the question is to what degree Does the sense of self the cultural message line sense of self the cultural message line sense of self the cultural message line up with the interior reality of the up with the interior reality of the up with the interior reality of the person? So could it be James that let's person? So could it be James that let's person? So could it be James that let's say the e let's say the essence of my say the e let's say the essence of my say the e let's say the essence of my psyche psyche psyche could be I don't know creativity or could be I don't know creativity or could be I don't know creativity or curiosity or you know looking to uh seek curiosity or you know looking to uh seek curiosity or you know looking to uh seek answers to important questions and that answers to important questions and that answers to important questions and that essence essence essence can be lived can be lived can be lived here in my job here in the UK and what I here in my job here in the UK and what I here in my job here in the UK and what I do now let's say on this podcast I get do now let's say on this podcast I get do now let's say on this podcast I get express those things each week on this express those things each week on this express those things each week on this show. show. show. >> But let's say I was brought up in >> But let's say I was brought up in >> But let's say I was brought up in Ethiopia. Ethiopia. Ethiopia. >> You're basically saying the essence of >> You're basically saying the essence of >> You're basically saying the essence of who I am would still be the same, but who I am would still be the same, but who I am would still be the same, but perhaps I would express that essence in perhaps I would express that essence in perhaps I would express that essence in a different way. The self is still the a different way. The self is still the a different way. The self is still the same no matter where you're born. It's same no matter where you're born. It's same no matter where you're born. It's just how do you express that self? Is just how do you express that self? Is just how do you express that self? Is that what you're saying? that what you're saying? that what you're saying? >> That's correct. But I have to add >> That's correct. But I have to add >> That's correct. But I have to add another element to that. It may well be another element to that. It may well be another element to that. It may well be that if you're born to that agrarian uh that if you're born to that agrarian uh that if you're born to that agrarian uh village in Ethiopia, maybe in another village in Ethiopia, maybe in another village in Ethiopia, maybe in another century where these other pathways are century where these other pathways are century where these other pathways are close to you, they don't even exist. close to you, they don't even exist. close to you, they don't even exist. There would be a terrible There would be a terrible There would be a terrible deformationation to your soul. Something deformationation to your soul. Something deformationation to your soul. Something would always mourn within. Something would always mourn within. Something would always mourn within. Something would always uh be full of yearning would always uh be full of yearning would always uh be full of yearning within. And maybe you would never have within. And maybe you would never have within. And maybe you would never have any clue as to what that was about. any clue as to what that was about. any clue as to what that was about. That's more likely the case for most That's more likely the case for most That's more likely the case for most people. people. people. >> So, so therefore, is a life of meaning in many ways a privileged thing to think in many ways a privileged thing to think about? Do we need about? Do we need about? Do we need to live a certain quality of life and to live a certain quality of life and to live a certain quality of life and have certain avenues open to us before have certain avenues open to us before have certain avenues open to us before we can possibly think about that? we can possibly think about that? we can possibly think about that? >> Well, it's being thought about in our >> Well, it's being thought about in our >> Well, it's being thought about in our bodies and our psyches regardless. And I bodies and our psyches regardless. And I bodies and our psyches regardless. And I I would never want to forget that or I would never want to forget that or I would never want to forget that or denigrate that. I'm just saying what denigrate that. I'm just saying what denigrate that. I'm just saying what what happens to the soul when the social what happens to the soul when the social what happens to the soul when the social conditions or the psychological conditions or the psychological conditions or the psychological conditions or the political conditions conditions or the political conditions conditions or the political conditions suppress that individual. suppress that individual. suppress that individual. You know there you know that's why I was You know there you know that's why I was You know there you know that's why I was saying gender roles were good examples saying gender roles were good examples saying gender roles were good examples of people's understandings and it gave of people's understandings and it gave of people's understandings and it gave them a certain security and it gave them them a certain security and it gave them them a certain security and it gave them marching orders. So there was a certain marching orders. So there was a certain marching orders. So there was a certain cohesion to that society, but at at what cohesion to that society, but at at what cohesion to that society, but at at what price to the individual talents and price to the individual talents and price to the individual talents and yearnings of women and men along the yearnings of women and men along the yearnings of women and men along the way. So you know in Thomas Gray's poem way. So you know in Thomas Gray's poem way. So you know in Thomas Gray's poem on the graveyard, you know, there's some on the graveyard, you know, there's some on the graveyard, you know, there's some village Milton who never never even got village Milton who never never even got village Milton who never never even got to go to school. My father was one of to go to school. My father was one of to go to school. My father was one of them. He wanted to be a physician them. He wanted to be a physician them. He wanted to be a physician and never was allowed to finish the and never was allowed to finish the and never was allowed to finish the eighth grade, ethm. eighth grade, ethm. eighth grade, ethm. and his life as he understood it was and his life as he understood it was and his life as he understood it was over at 13. And I and he never over at 13. And I and he never over at 13. And I and he never complained. complained. complained. But I I I I know I I grieve that. Uh and But I I I I know I I grieve that. Uh and But I I I I know I I grieve that. Uh and I think about it all the time. And I I I I think about it all the time. And I I I I think about it all the time. And I I I think of the privilege I had that he think of the privilege I had that he think of the privilege I had that he didn't have. And so many are the souls didn't have. And so many are the souls didn't have. And so many are the souls that were extinguished or crushed or at that were extinguished or crushed or at that were extinguished or crushed or at least profoundly constrained. least profoundly constrained. least profoundly constrained. >> Yeah. conditions of the world without >> Yeah. conditions of the world without >> Yeah. conditions of the world without around them. around them. around them. >> Yes. And maybe that's the job of our >> Yes. And maybe that's the job of our >> Yes. And maybe that's the job of our time. Maybe we can look back and go, time. Maybe we can look back and go, time. Maybe we can look back and go, well, listen, well, listen, well, listen, the soul's calling is always there, but the soul's calling is always there, but the soul's calling is always there, but many of our ancestors have lived in many of our ancestors have lived in many of our ancestors have lived in times and environments where they were times and environments where they were times and environments where they were unable to express their soul's calling. unable to express their soul's calling. unable to express their soul's calling. But perhaps the task that lies before But perhaps the task that lies before But perhaps the task that lies before all of us in the 21st century is all of us in the 21st century is all of us in the 21st century is can we evolve? Can we evolve humanity so can we evolve? Can we evolve humanity so can we evolve? Can we evolve humanity so that more and more of us can first of that more and more of us can first of that more and more of us can first of all listen to the voice of our souls and all listen to the voice of our souls and all listen to the voice of our souls and then try and express that meaning in our then try and express that meaning in our then try and express that meaning in our lives because you you mentioned your lives because you you mentioned your lives because you you mentioned your dad. I I think about my dad's death a dad. I I think about my dad's death a dad. I I think about my dad's death a lot. You know, dad's dad's work lot. You know, dad's dad's work lot. You know, dad's dad's work basically ended up killing him because basically ended up killing him because basically ended up killing him because he he slept for three nights a week for he he slept for three nights a week for he he slept for three nights a week for 30 years. He did two jobs, basically, a 30 years. He did two jobs, basically, a 30 years. He did two jobs, basically, a day job, and then he'd come home and day job, and then he'd come home and day job, and then he'd come home and he'd work all night. And I don't know if he'd work all night. And I don't know if he'd work all night. And I don't know if he enjoyed it. If he was alive today, he enjoyed it. If he was alive today, he enjoyed it. If he was alive today, I'd ask him, you know, dad, was it worth I'd ask him, you know, dad, was it worth I'd ask him, you know, dad, was it worth it? And I don't know, part of me is it? And I don't know, part of me is it? And I don't know, part of me is like, no, I don't think he was living a like, no, I don't think he was living a like, no, I don't think he was living a life of meaning in some ways. life of meaning in some ways. life of meaning in some ways. But in other ways he was right because But in other ways he was right because But in other ways he was right because my dad's main focus in life was to my dad's main focus in life was to my dad's main focus in life was to provide for his family back home in provide for his family back home in provide for his family back home in India and to give me and my brother the India and to give me and my brother the India and to give me and my brother the best start in life that he could. So you best start in life that he could. So you best start in life that he could. So you you can kind of look at meaning through you can kind of look at meaning through you can kind of look at meaning through multiple different lenses can't you? multiple different lenses can't you? multiple different lenses can't you? >> Oh absolutely. Yes. No and and and again >> Oh absolutely. Yes. No and and and again >> Oh absolutely. Yes. No and and and again our lives are quite different but very our lives are quite different but very our lives are quite different but very parallel. My father would have said, you parallel. My father would have said, you parallel. My father would have said, you know, to be a man in my time is to know, to be a man in my time is to know, to be a man in my time is to support your family at all costs. support your family at all costs. support your family at all costs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Live your life. Are you kidding? I don't >> Live your life. Are you kidding? I don't >> Live your life. Are you kidding? I don't have an opportunity to do that. I I'm have an opportunity to do that. I I'm have an opportunity to do that. I I'm here to take care of everybody. And he here to take care of everybody. And he here to take care of everybody. And he did without complaint. And I admire him did without complaint. And I admire him did without complaint. And I admire him for that. There's something to that code for that. There's something to that code for that. There's something to that code that gave a sense of purpose. I also that gave a sense of purpose. I also that gave a sense of purpose. I also know it was at huge cost to him. That is know it was at huge cost to him. That is know it was at huge cost to him. That is what I grieve. I appreciate his loyalty what I grieve. I appreciate his loyalty what I grieve. I appreciate his loyalty and love and I I cherish it. I also and love and I I cherish it. I also and love and I I cherish it. I also grieve the loss of his own journey. Both grieve the loss of his own journey. Both grieve the loss of his own journey. Both are true. Absolutely. are true. Absolutely. are true. Absolutely. >> Yeah. In your latest book, there's a >> Yeah. In your latest book, there's a >> Yeah. In your latest book, there's a beautiful section called asking beautiful section called asking beautiful section called asking questions that matter. And in that questions that matter. And in that questions that matter. And in that section, you write the path of personal section, you write the path of personal section, you write the path of personal growth and development is not found so growth and development is not found so growth and development is not found so much in finding the answers which we all much in finding the answers which we all much in finding the answers which we all certainly wish for as youths. Because certainly wish for as youths. Because certainly wish for as youths. Because the answers we do find at best serve the answers we do find at best serve the answers we do find at best serve only for a little while or are someone only for a little while or are someone only for a little while or are someone else's answers. Life is forever evolving else's answers. Life is forever evolving else's answers. Life is forever evolving and yesterday's truth is tomorrow's and yesterday's truth is tomorrow's and yesterday's truth is tomorrow's prison. prison. prison. >> I really love that. I love this idea >> I really love that. I love this idea >> I really love that. I love this idea that you focus on people asking that you focus on people asking that you focus on people asking questions instead of giving them the questions instead of giving them the questions instead of giving them the answers. answers. answers. So So So let's say James, there's someone who's let's say James, there's someone who's let's say James, there's someone who's listening to our conversation who is in listening to our conversation who is in listening to our conversation who is in midlife. Let's say they're in their 40s midlife. Let's say they're in their 40s midlife. Let's say they're in their 40s and they have realized throughout this and they have realized throughout this and they have realized throughout this conversation conversation conversation that they're in the wrong career. Maybe that they're in the wrong career. Maybe that they're in the wrong career. Maybe it's one of those doctors or lawyers who it's one of those doctors or lawyers who it's one of those doctors or lawyers who end up in your therapy room. They're end up in your therapy room. They're end up in your therapy room. They're like, like, like, >> "Mhm, >> "Mhm, >> "Mhm, >> I'm here. I've got used to earning this >> I'm here. I've got used to earning this >> I'm here. I've got used to earning this amount and that's what pays for the amount and that's what pays for the amount and that's what pays for the mortgage and my lifestyle, mortgage and my lifestyle, mortgage and my lifestyle, but the truth is my soul feels empty and but the truth is my soul feels empty and but the truth is my soul feels empty and so I compensate for that lack of meaning so I compensate for that lack of meaning so I compensate for that lack of meaning by getting drunk on Friday and Saturday by getting drunk on Friday and Saturday by getting drunk on Friday and Saturday nights or some version of that. nights or some version of that. nights or some version of that. >> What kinds of questions could that >> What kinds of questions could that >> What kinds of questions could that person ask themselves person ask themselves person ask themselves to start changing things? to start changing things? to start changing things? >> Sure. And and and you're right. The >> Sure. And and and you're right. The >> Sure. And and and you're right. The moment you start probing, then they'll moment you start probing, then they'll moment you start probing, then they'll say, "But you know, I've got the kids say, "But you know, I've got the kids say, "But you know, I've got the kids tuition, the orthodontic braces, well, tuition, the orthodontic braces, well, tuition, the orthodontic braces, well, I've got to pay off the mortgage." It's I've got to pay off the mortgage." It's I've got to pay off the mortgage." It's all of which are factual, but that's all of which are factual, but that's all of which are factual, but that's again binding us to the choices that we again binding us to the choices that we again binding us to the choices that we made at an earlier stage of our journey. made at an earlier stage of our journey. made at an earlier stage of our journey. You see, that's th that's the You see, that's th that's the You see, that's th that's the self-imprisonment that we all walk into. self-imprisonment that we all walk into. self-imprisonment that we all walk into. The single most important thing I The single most important thing I The single most important thing I learned in my years of analysis in learned in my years of analysis in learned in my years of analysis in Zurich and I've learned it many many Zurich and I've learned it many many Zurich and I've learned it many many through many repetitions is what you've through many repetitions is what you've through many repetitions is what you've become is now your chief obstacle. And become is now your chief obstacle. And become is now your chief obstacle. And what we've become is this provisional what we've become is this provisional what we've become is this provisional personality operating in the world as personality operating in the world as personality operating in the world as best we can given the information we best we can given the information we best we can given the information we have, the pressures we feel, the context have, the pressures we feel, the context have, the pressures we feel, the context in which we find ourselves. and we do in which we find ourselves. and we do in which we find ourselves. and we do the best we can, you know, but something the best we can, you know, but something the best we can, you know, but something inside knows better. So, you're right. inside knows better. So, you're right. inside knows better. So, you're right. The moment you start probing those The moment you start probing those The moment you start probing those questions, then all of the good reasons questions, then all of the good reasons questions, then all of the good reasons not to make any changes and then then not to make any changes and then then not to make any changes and then then you're in the position of Ivon Illich. you're in the position of Ivon Illich. you're in the position of Ivon Illich. Okay. Well, on your deathbed, will you Okay. Well, on your deathbed, will you Okay. Well, on your deathbed, will you look back on this stage and say, "Well, look back on this stage and say, "Well, look back on this stage and say, "Well, I could have made some changes there, I could have made some changes there, I could have made some changes there, but I didn't, did I? And what's the but I didn't, did I? And what's the but I didn't, did I? And what's the price of that?" So I I would ask price of that?" So I I would ask price of that?" So I I would ask questions about, you know, what fired questions about, you know, what fired questions about, you know, what fired your imagination as a child. your imagination as a child. your imagination as a child. Has that totally gone away or is it is Has that totally gone away or is it is Has that totally gone away or is it is it something that still speaks to you? it something that still speaks to you? it something that still speaks to you? What what what do you find spontaneously What what what do you find spontaneously What what what do you find spontaneously energizing to you? And and many times it energizing to you? And and many times it energizing to you? And and many times it will be I mean I'll give you a quick will be I mean I'll give you a quick will be I mean I'll give you a quick example. Many people I know have found example. Many people I know have found example. Many people I know have found through music um a a deep calling and it doesn't mean um a a deep calling and it doesn't mean they have to be musicians they have to be musicians they have to be musicians although in some cases they they learn although in some cases they they learn although in some cases they they learn the guitar or the piano or something the guitar or the piano or something the guitar or the piano or something like that or or people who say you know like that or or people who say you know like that or or people who say you know I always wondered if I could write I always wondered if I could write I always wondered if I could write something well you know writers are something well you know writers are something well you know writers are people who write and write something people who write and write something people who write and write something don't you know shackle yourself saying don't you know shackle yourself saying don't you know shackle yourself saying well it has to be publishable Yeah. well it has to be publishable Yeah. well it has to be publishable Yeah. >> Well, publishing is driven mostly by >> Well, publishing is driven mostly by >> Well, publishing is driven mostly by economics these days, not quality. And economics these days, not quality. And economics these days, not quality. And and write because something in you wants and write because something in you wants and write because something in you wants your attention. your attention. your attention. You don't know what you think, feel, and You don't know what you think, feel, and You don't know what you think, feel, and believe until you start writing about believe until you start writing about believe until you start writing about it. And and somehow out of that it. And and somehow out of that it. And and somehow out of that dialogue, something emerges. That's one dialogue, something emerges. That's one dialogue, something emerges. That's one of the reasons I keep writing is it's a of the reasons I keep writing is it's a of the reasons I keep writing is it's a form of self-discovery. It's a form of form of self-discovery. It's a form of form of self-discovery. It's a form of of developing. I sometimes I look back of developing. I sometimes I look back of developing. I sometimes I look back on something I think oh that's on something I think oh that's on something I think oh that's interesting where then it's realized interesting where then it's realized interesting where then it's realized it's my own writing you know it's like it's my own writing you know it's like it's my own writing you know it's like where did that come from I don't know where did that come from I don't know where did that come from I don't know but there was something in there that but there was something in there that but there was something in there that was responding to this in a deeper way was responding to this in a deeper way was responding to this in a deeper way so in in a way it means recovering a so in in a way it means recovering a so in in a way it means recovering a sense of the depth of your own journey sense of the depth of your own journey sense of the depth of your own journey in a new way. in a new way. in a new way. >> Yeah. Um just to sort of respond to your >> Yeah. Um just to sort of respond to your >> Yeah. Um just to sort of respond to your music uh point that you just mentioned, music uh point that you just mentioned, music uh point that you just mentioned, I can remember a patient of mine a few I can remember a patient of mine a few I can remember a patient of mine a few years ago who was a doctor actually and years ago who was a doctor actually and years ago who was a doctor actually and was burning out in their 40s and very was burning out in their 40s and very was burning out in their 40s and very much you know to cut the story short it much you know to cut the story short it much you know to cut the story short it wasn't their calling but they felt wasn't their calling but they felt wasn't their calling but they felt trapped that well I this is my life you trapped that well I this is my life you trapped that well I this is my life you know I I can't not work because we know I I can't not work because we know I I can't not work because we depend on my income for the mortgage, depend on my income for the mortgage, depend on my income for the mortgage, etc., etc. etc., etc. etc., etc. And I remember chatting to him saying, And I remember chatting to him saying, And I remember chatting to him saying, "Well, okay, well, what else did you "Well, okay, well, what else did you "Well, okay, well, what else did you used to like?" You know, he goes, "Well, used to like?" You know, he goes, "Well, used to like?" You know, he goes, "Well, I've always I love music. I love being I've always I love music. I love being I've always I love music. I love being in a band when I was at school, but you in a band when I was at school, but you in a band when I was at school, but you know, part of me thinks I could have know, part of me thinks I could have know, part of me thinks I could have been a musician, right?" And and I been a musician, right?" And and I been a musician, right?" And and I remember and and it deeply resonates remember and and it deeply resonates remember and and it deeply resonates with me because I'm a very keen with me because I'm a very keen with me because I'm a very keen musician. And I remember saying to him, musician. And I remember saying to him, musician. And I remember saying to him, I said, "Well, maybe you don't need to I said, "Well, maybe you don't need to I said, "Well, maybe you don't need to quit your job. Maybe you just need to quit your job. Maybe you just need to quit your job. Maybe you just need to start playing your music again." And start playing your music again." And start playing your music again." And over the next few months, they got back over the next few months, they got back over the next few months, they got back in touch with the music. They joined a in touch with the music. They joined a in touch with the music. They joined a local band and he would then perform, I local band and he would then perform, I local band and he would then perform, I think maybe once a month at the think maybe once a month at the think maybe once a month at the weekends, they would perform. And that's weekends, they would perform. And that's weekends, they would perform. And that's all he needed to do to almost rebalance all he needed to do to almost rebalance all he needed to do to almost rebalance things. Sure, medicine wasn't the right things. Sure, medicine wasn't the right things. Sure, medicine wasn't the right job for him, but just by getting enough job for him, but just by getting enough job for him, but just by getting enough music in in other parts of his life, it music in in other parts of his life, it music in in other parts of his life, it seemed to make his job as a doctor much seemed to make his job as a doctor much seemed to make his job as a doctor much more tolerable. Um what's your take on more tolerable. Um what's your take on more tolerable. Um what's your take on that? Do do you see that quite a lot as that? Do do you see that quite a lot as that? Do do you see that quite a lot as being a sort of halfway house where being a sort of halfway house where being a sort of halfway house where people can get that life of meaning people can get that life of meaning people can get that life of meaning without quitting their jobs? without quitting their jobs? without quitting their jobs? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And um you know >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And um you know >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And um you know I have I know many examples of that and I have I know many examples of that and I have I know many examples of that and it's not necessarily if people say well it's not necessarily if people say well it's not necessarily if people say well tell me about this meaning thing. How do tell me about this meaning thing. How do tell me about this meaning thing. How do I find it? Well you know that's what I I find it? Well you know that's what I I find it? Well you know that's what I said just move to Brighton and it'll all said just move to Brighton and it'll all said just move to Brighton and it'll all be there for you right that's that's not be there for you right that's that's not be there for you right that's that's not the point. It's it's about various the point. It's it's about various the point. It's it's about various pieces of your life maybe that need to pieces of your life maybe that need to pieces of your life maybe that need to be moved about on the chessboard of your be moved about on the chessboard of your be moved about on the chessboard of your life life life >> and you know maybe include some things >> and you know maybe include some things >> and you know maybe include some things that such as what we were illustrating that such as what we were illustrating that such as what we were illustrating >> is that that are missing in your life >> is that that are missing in your life >> is that that are missing in your life that feed the spirit because in some way that feed the spirit because in some way that feed the spirit because in some way it's the cash account of the spirit is it's the cash account of the spirit is it's the cash account of the spirit is being drained on a daily basis. What being drained on a daily basis. What being drained on a daily basis. What replenishes it? replenishes it? replenishes it? >> Yeah. you know what spiritual cash so to >> Yeah. you know what spiritual cash so to >> Yeah. you know what spiritual cash so to speak comes back into the account and speak comes back into the account and speak comes back into the account and many times people because there there's many times people because there there's many times people because there there's going to be routinization there's going going to be routinization there's going going to be routinization there's going to be institutional values that to be institutional values that to be institutional values that legitimately have to be served that legitimately have to be served that legitimately have to be served that there are bills to be paid that's part there are bills to be paid that's part there are bills to be paid that's part of the reality that don't I shouldn't of the reality that don't I shouldn't of the reality that don't I shouldn't want anybody watching or listening today want anybody watching or listening today want anybody watching or listening today to think we're being idealistic we're to think we're being idealistic we're to think we're being idealistic we're being utterly realistic you know you pay being utterly realistic you know you pay being utterly realistic you know you pay a price if you live in violation of what a price if you live in violation of what a price if you live in violation of what is most deeply true inside of you. You is most deeply true inside of you. You is most deeply true inside of you. You know that intuitively. You may be afraid know that intuitively. You may be afraid know that intuitively. You may be afraid of looking at that. And it doesn't of looking at that. And it doesn't of looking at that. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to drop necessarily mean that you have to drop necessarily mean that you have to drop all here and move to Madrid or Berlin or all here and move to Madrid or Berlin or all here and move to Madrid or Berlin or whatever. It means you you you need to whatever. It means you you you need to whatever. It means you you you need to take seriously the valuing of those take seriously the valuing of those take seriously the valuing of those aspects of your personality that have aspects of your personality that have aspects of your personality that have been left on the roadside behind. been left on the roadside behind. been left on the roadside behind. possibly necessarily so in terms of possibly necessarily so in terms of possibly necessarily so in terms of certain developments that you had to certain developments that you had to certain developments that you had to attend but then again there is a price attend but then again there is a price attend but then again there is a price you wouldn't say well you know let's get you wouldn't say well you know let's get you wouldn't say well you know let's get rid of these fingers or I can get rid of rid of these fingers or I can get rid of rid of these fingers or I can get rid of my left leg you know because I haven't my left leg you know because I haven't my left leg you know because I haven't been using it that much well right you been using it that much well right you been using it that much well right you are a whole person we never achieve are a whole person we never achieve are a whole person we never achieve spiritual and psychological wholeness spiritual and psychological wholeness spiritual and psychological wholeness but but in some way that's the goal and but but in some way that's the goal and but but in some way that's the goal and that's never going to be one this that's never going to be one this that's never going to be one this because there's always this over here because there's always this over here because there's always this over here that is also calling for our attention. that is also calling for our attention. that is also calling for our attention. A good example of that is the balance A good example of that is the balance A good example of that is the balance between between between privacy and being engaged in you know in privacy and being engaged in you know in privacy and being engaged in you know in your society or your or relationships. your society or your or relationships. your society or your or relationships. You know if too much of one side will You know if too much of one side will You know if too much of one side will diminish the other. diminish the other. diminish the other. >> Um what would you say in your multiple >> Um what would you say in your multiple >> Um what would you say in your multiple decades decades decades of practice of practice of practice has changed the most? That's one has changed the most? That's one has changed the most? That's one question. And the second question is, question. And the second question is, question. And the second question is, what have you found to be the most what have you found to be the most what have you found to be the most helpful tools or some of the most helpful tools or some of the most helpful tools or some of the most helpful tools that people can use to helpful tools that people can use to helpful tools that people can use to better understand themselves and get a better understand themselves and get a better understand themselves and get a better sense of what they should be better sense of what they should be better sense of what they should be doing with their lives? doing with their lives? doing with their lives? >> First of all, in my relationship to the >> First of all, in my relationship to the >> First of all, in my relationship to the client, when I began, I was, shall I client, when I began, I was, shall I client, when I began, I was, shall I say, trying to be too helpful, say, trying to be too helpful, say, trying to be too helpful, making too many suggestions. What I've making too many suggestions. What I've making too many suggestions. What I've since discovered along with colleagues since discovered along with colleagues since discovered along with colleagues that is I'm really there to pay that is I'm really there to pay that is I'm really there to pay attention to listen to contain to hold attention to listen to contain to hold attention to listen to contain to hold and allow the conversation to grow and and allow the conversation to grow and and allow the conversation to grow and develop. Mhm. develop. Mhm. develop. Mhm. >> I think my awareness of the mystery of >> I think my awareness of the mystery of >> I think my awareness of the mystery of the process the process the process uh has grown and again what is right for uh has grown and again what is right for uh has grown and again what is right for that person needs to emerge and that's that person needs to emerge and that's that person needs to emerge and that's quite different than the notion that the quite different than the notion that the quite different than the notion that the therapist has somehow answers for whats therapist has somehow answers for whats therapist has somehow answers for whats [snorts] a person. And then the various [snorts] a person. And then the various [snorts] a person. And then the various tools of of dream work of journaling and tools of of dream work of journaling and tools of of dream work of journaling and that sort of thing all are designed to that sort of thing all are designed to that sort of thing all are designed to evoke a more respectful conversation evoke a more respectful conversation evoke a more respectful conversation with with the other. You know the the with with the other. You know the the with with the other. You know the the word um therapy means to listen or pay word um therapy means to listen or pay word um therapy means to listen or pay attention to from the Greek. So it's attention to from the Greek. So it's attention to from the Greek. So it's like and and psyche of course is soul. like and and psyche of course is soul. like and and psyche of course is soul. So it's like listening or paying So it's like listening or paying So it's like listening or paying attention to the soul. attention to the soul. attention to the soul. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How do you go about doing that? Well, >> How do you go about doing that? Well, >> How do you go about doing that? Well, there are venerable techniques that are there are venerable techniques that are there are venerable techniques that are age-old that whereby people have engaged age-old that whereby people have engaged age-old that whereby people have engaged in that kind of conversations and and in that kind of conversations and and in that kind of conversations and and for me it happens in our conversations. for me it happens in our conversations. for me it happens in our conversations. It happens in my clients conversations. It happens in my clients conversations. It happens in my clients conversations. It happens when I write. It happens when It happens when I write. It happens when It happens when I write. It happens when I dream. You know, Yates said once, "The I dream. You know, Yates said once, "The I dream. You know, Yates said once, "The world is full of wondrous things waiting world is full of wondrous things waiting world is full of wondrous things waiting for our senses to mature enough to be for our senses to mature enough to be for our senses to mature enough to be able to discern them." So this is about able to discern them." So this is about able to discern them." So this is about a discernment process over time. The a discernment process over time. The a discernment process over time. The psyche is always speaking to us and the psyche is always speaking to us and the psyche is always speaking to us and the question is are we listening and what is question is are we listening and what is question is are we listening and what is it trying to say to us and then can you it trying to say to us and then can you it trying to say to us and then can you mobilize enough insight and courage to mobilize enough insight and courage to mobilize enough insight and courage to address what that means in the concrete address what that means in the concrete address what that means in the concrete details of your life. details of your life. details of your life. >> Yeah, James, I love that. I've >> Yeah, James, I love that. I've >> Yeah, James, I love that. I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation thoroughly enjoyed this conversation thoroughly enjoyed this conversation like I did our first one. And for people like I did our first one. And for people like I did our first one. And for people who want to stay in touch with you or I who want to stay in touch with you or I who want to stay in touch with you or I guess go deeper into your work, you do guess go deeper into your work, you do guess go deeper into your work, you do have 22 books out there. Is there are have 22 books out there. Is there are have 22 books out there. Is there are there a couple you would direct them to there a couple you would direct them to there a couple you would direct them to to start on their James Holes journey? to start on their James Holes journey? to start on their James Holes journey? >> Well, that's a tough choice. If if >> Well, that's a tough choice. If if >> Well, that's a tough choice. If if they're in midlife throws, you know, uh they're in midlife throws, you know, uh they're in midlife throws, you know, uh the finding meaning in the second half the finding meaning in the second half the finding meaning in the second half of life, which is the publishers's of life, which is the publishers's of life, which is the publishers's title, not mine. um and and if they're title, not mine. um and and if they're title, not mine. um and and if they're in the middle of some difficult times in the middle of some difficult times in the middle of some difficult times right now, maybe um Swamplands of the right now, maybe um Swamplands of the right now, maybe um Swamplands of the Soul and if they're dealing with Soul and if they're dealing with Soul and if they're dealing with relationship issues, uh if you can bear relationship issues, uh if you can bear relationship issues, uh if you can bear handling it, look at the Eden Project handling it, look at the Eden Project handling it, look at the Eden Project and which calls us back to a personal and which calls us back to a personal and which calls us back to a personal accountability and and so forth. accountability and and so forth. accountability and and so forth. >> James, thank you so much for coming back >> James, thank you so much for coming back >> James, thank you so much for coming back on and um yeah, we'll talk again soon, on and um yeah, we'll talk again soon, on and um yeah, we'll talk again soon, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. >> Thank you very much for the >> Thank you very much for the >> Thank you very much for the conversation. And I I've I I've enjoyed conversation. And I I've I I've enjoyed conversation. And I I've I I've enjoyed both of them as well. both of them as well. both of them as well. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one. Most things that adults are doing one. Most things that adults are doing one. Most things that adults are doing that is counterproductive have a logic, that is counterproductive have a logic, that is counterproductive have a logic, a certain logic, a twisted logic you a certain logic, a twisted logic you a certain logic, a twisted logic you might say, that dates back to their might say, that dates back to their might say, that dates back to their early childhood where that behavior made early childhood where that behavior made early childhood where that behavior made a certain sort of sense.