$100M+ Advice That'll Piss Off Every Business Guru (ft. DHH)

Are you able to give any ballpark for Are you able to give any ballpark for previous numbers? previous numbers? previous numbers? >> Let's just say ridiculous. I think >> Let's just say ridiculous. I think >> Let's just say ridiculous. I think that's a that's a good ballpark, right? >> When you are introducing yourselves, >> When you are introducing yourselves, what do you even say? Because you've what do you even say? Because you've what do you even say? Because you've done so many different things that I done so many different things that I done so many different things that I don't even know like what you take don't even know like what you take don't even know like what you take credit for most or what you like hang credit for most or what you like hang credit for most or what you like hang your hat on. your hat on. your hat on. >> Well, it all depends on the audience. If >> Well, it all depends on the audience. If >> Well, it all depends on the audience. If I'm talking to a bunch of car nerds, I I'm talking to a bunch of car nerds, I I'm talking to a bunch of car nerds, I talk about winning Lama. If I talk to a talk about winning Lama. If I talk to a talk about winning Lama. If I talk to a bunch of programmers, it's all about bunch of programmers, it's all about bunch of programmers, it's all about Ruby and Rails. And if it's a bunch of Ruby and Rails. And if it's a bunch of Ruby and Rails. And if it's a bunch of entrepreneurs, it's usually about entrepreneurs, it's usually about entrepreneurs, it's usually about building base camp and 37 signals. So, building base camp and 37 signals. So, building base camp and 37 signals. So, did you have you ever said base camp's did you have you ever said base camp's did you have you ever said base camp's revenue? revenue? revenue? >> No, we've never disclosed the full >> No, we've never disclosed the full >> No, we've never disclosed the full revenues nor full profits. Um, I think revenues nor full profits. Um, I think revenues nor full profits. Um, I think we've said tens of millions or we've said tens of millions or we've said tens of millions or something. I don't even know. That's one something. I don't even know. That's one something. I don't even know. That's one of the great privileges of being a of the great privileges of being a of the great privileges of being a private company. It certainly served us private company. It certainly served us private company. It certainly served us well for many, many years when we had well for many, many years when we had well for many, many years when we had the entire project management space in the entire project management space in the entire project management space in SAS to ourselves. And we were laughing SAS to ourselves. And we were laughing SAS to ourselves. And we were laughing all the way to the bank because clearly all the way to the bank because clearly all the way to the bank because clearly someone else must have realized this was someone else must have realized this was someone else must have realized this was a highly profitable not even niche but a highly profitable not even niche but a highly profitable not even niche but category of software and it just took a category of software and it just took a category of software and it just took a decade until anyone else woke up to the decade until anyone else woke up to the decade until anyone else woke up to the idea that this could be a good business idea that this could be a good business idea that this could be a good business and then we had competition. So um very and then we had competition. So um very and then we had competition. So um very much enjoy the privilege of being a US much enjoy the privilege of being a US much enjoy the privilege of being a US private company and not having to private company and not having to private company and not having to disclose that goddamn thing. disclose that goddamn thing. disclose that goddamn thing. Sam, have you ever been to So, if you go Sam, have you ever been to So, if you go Sam, have you ever been to So, if you go to 37 Signals website, Sam, have you to 37 Signals website, Sam, have you to 37 Signals website, Sam, have you ever clicked at the bottom, there's this ever clicked at the bottom, there's this ever clicked at the bottom, there's this little tab that just says 1999. Have you little tab that just says 1999. Have you little tab that just says 1999. Have you ever seen this? ever seen this? ever seen this? >> Uh, no. I'm going to it now. What's it? >> Uh, no. I'm going to it now. What's it? >> Uh, no. I'm going to it now. What's it? >> Go there. It's amazing. So, so in >> Go there. It's amazing. So, so in >> Go there. It's amazing. So, so in general, I feel like you guys have done general, I feel like you guys have done general, I feel like you guys have done an amazing job of like planting your an amazing job of like planting your an amazing job of like planting your flag in the ground. Like, yo, this is flag in the ground. Like, yo, this is flag in the ground. Like, yo, this is what we believe. And Rework was a what we believe. And Rework was a what we believe. And Rework was a fantastic book. Your website right now fantastic book. Your website right now fantastic book. Your website right now is basically kind of like Rework. It's is basically kind of like Rework. It's is basically kind of like Rework. It's just a 30 chapters of [ __ ] we believe. just a 30 chapters of [ __ ] we believe. just a 30 chapters of [ __ ] we believe. um rather than trying to sell you on our um rather than trying to sell you on our um rather than trying to sell you on our software like let me tell you our software like let me tell you our software like let me tell you our philosophy as founders and philosophy as founders and philosophy as founders and entrepreneurs. But if you click 1999, entrepreneurs. But if you click 1999, entrepreneurs. But if you click 1999, Sam, what do you see? Sam, what do you see? Sam, what do you see? >> I see a website that a page that looks >> I see a website that a page that looks >> I see a website that a page that looks sort of like it's from the year 1999 and sort of like it's from the year 1999 and sort of like it's from the year 1999 and it's all white and it says 37 signals it's all white and it says 37 signals it's all white and it says 37 signals manifesto and it's a 37 chapter book in manifesto and it's a 37 chapter book in manifesto and it's a 37 chapter book in plain text plain text plain text >> and there's chapters like chapter 24 my >> and there's chapters like chapter 24 my >> and there's chapters like chapter 24 my cousin's buddy and it says my cousin's cousin's buddy and it says my cousin's cousin's buddy and it says my cousin's buddy is a web designer and then you buddy is a web designer and then you buddy is a web designer and then you guys wrote then let him do it. the money guys wrote then let him do it. the money guys wrote then let him do it. the money you'll save having your cousin's buddy you'll save having your cousin's buddy you'll save having your cousin's buddy build your website will nothing compared build your website will nothing compared build your website will nothing compared to the cost of time money to undo his to the cost of time money to undo his to the cost of time money to undo his mistakes. And so like very much this mistakes. And so like very much this mistakes. And so like very much this like this blast from the past of you like this blast from the past of you like this blast from the past of you guys have been doing this for like you guys have been doing this for like you guys have been doing this for like you know whatever 27 years or something of know whatever 27 years or something of know whatever 27 years or something of saying what you feel unapologetically saying what you feel unapologetically saying what you feel unapologetically and having that be something that uh and having that be something that uh and having that be something that uh like leading with the philosophy rather like leading with the philosophy rather like leading with the philosophy rather than leading with like hey here's our than leading with like hey here's our than leading with like hey here's our features and here are here's our features and here are here's our features and here are here's our products please use us. products please use us. products please use us. >> Yeah. So a lot of it is simply based in >> Yeah. So a lot of it is simply based in >> Yeah. So a lot of it is simply based in the fact that neither Jason and I can the fact that neither Jason and I can the fact that neither Jason and I can shut up about what we believe. So it is shut up about what we believe. So it is shut up about what we believe. So it is a natural byproduct of us existing and a natural byproduct of us existing and a natural byproduct of us existing and working that we keep coming up with working that we keep coming up with working that we keep coming up with takes on different topics in our takes on different topics in our takes on different topics in our industry. How to build a company, how to industry. How to build a company, how to industry. How to build a company, how to run a company, how to do technology, how run a company, how to do technology, how run a company, how to do technology, how to do design. And it would be an awful to do design. And it would be an awful to do design. And it would be an awful waste in my opinion if we didn't try to waste in my opinion if we didn't try to waste in my opinion if we didn't try to capture some of those observations and capture some of those observations and capture some of those observations and lessons and distribute them more lessons and distribute them more lessons and distribute them more broadly. But there's certainly also a broadly. But there's certainly also a broadly. But there's certainly also a more more more economic side to it. When we got economic side to it. When we got economic side to it. When we got started, I think it's in rework. There's started, I think it's in rework. There's started, I think it's in rework. There's a chapter about uh how to outte rather a chapter about uh how to outte rather a chapter about uh how to outte rather than outspend the competition. than outspend the competition. than outspend the competition. And that was really our operating And that was really our operating And that was really our operating paradigm since the beginning because we paradigm since the beginning because we paradigm since the beginning because we never raised VC. We never had more money never raised VC. We never had more money never raised VC. We never had more money than anyone else. We always had to than anyone else. We always had to than anyone else. We always had to earn the money we wanted to spend first. earn the money we wanted to spend first. earn the money we wanted to spend first. And that meant a whole host of And that meant a whole host of And that meant a whole host of constraints on how we could run our constraints on how we could run our constraints on how we could run our business and certainly how we could run business and certainly how we could run business and certainly how we could run marketing because if you don't have a marketing because if you don't have a marketing because if you don't have a bunch of money to buy ads and awareness bunch of money to buy ads and awareness bunch of money to buy ads and awareness that way you have to earn it and the way that way you have to earn it and the way that way you have to earn it and the way to earn it is simply to be interesting. to earn it is simply to be interesting. to earn it is simply to be interesting. Now I don't set out to be interesting as Now I don't set out to be interesting as Now I don't set out to be interesting as a objective. I try to be ruthlessly a objective. I try to be ruthlessly a objective. I try to be ruthlessly honest and very forthright in everything honest and very forthright in everything honest and very forthright in everything that I learn. And that in turn turns out that I learn. And that in turn turns out that I learn. And that in turn turns out to be interesting to some people some of to be interesting to some people some of to be interesting to some people some of the time because so much of business the time because so much of business the time because so much of business advice is either being given by people advice is either being given by people advice is either being given by people who aren't doing or observing and who aren't doing or observing and who aren't doing or observing and deducing. And there's an entire category deducing. And there's an entire category deducing. And there's an entire category of that usually padded to fit exactly of that usually padded to fit exactly of that usually padded to fit exactly 300 pages and maybe it has a funny 300 pages and maybe it has a funny 300 pages and maybe it has a funny exclamation point in the word instead. exclamation point in the word instead. exclamation point in the word instead. Like I think that's the most popular Like I think that's the most popular Like I think that's the most popular genre right now of how to quit my job or genre right now of how to quit my job or genre right now of how to quit my job or something. That's what I see at the something. That's what I see at the something. That's what I see at the airports all the time right now. or it airports all the time right now. or it airports all the time right now. or it is from entrepreneurs who are active but is from entrepreneurs who are active but is from entrepreneurs who are active but very often have all sorts of liabilities very often have all sorts of liabilities very often have all sorts of liabilities in terms of what they can say because in terms of what they can say because in terms of what they can say because they have investors or they're publicly they have investors or they're publicly they have investors or they're publicly listed or whatever and basically Jason listed or whatever and basically Jason listed or whatever and basically Jason and I had none of those constraints. We and I had none of those constraints. We and I had none of those constraints. We were in the thick of it are in the thick were in the thick of it are in the thick were in the thick of it are in the thick of it running our own business having to of it running our own business having to of it running our own business having to make more money than we spend and it make more money than we spend and it make more money than we spend and it also we don't have any of the also we don't have any of the also we don't have any of the constraints. We don't have anyone who constraints. We don't have anyone who constraints. We don't have anyone who can tell us no. Now, some days I wish can tell us no. Now, some days I wish can tell us no. Now, some days I wish there were people who could tell me no there were people who could tell me no there were people who could tell me no when I tweet out something stupid or or when I tweet out something stupid or or when I tweet out something stupid or or write something hairbrain, but and the write something hairbrain, but and the write something hairbrain, but and the net sum, the moving average of that net sum, the moving average of that net sum, the moving average of that arrangement of doing something that is arrangement of doing something that is arrangement of doing something that is successful enough that people care about successful enough that people care about successful enough that people care about what you have to say and then not having what you have to say and then not having what you have to say and then not having that course filter of, oh, I wonder what that course filter of, oh, I wonder what that course filter of, oh, I wonder what my investors are going to think about my investors are going to think about my investors are going to think about this has produced over the last 25 plus this has produced over the last 25 plus this has produced over the last 25 plus years a steady stream of observations, years a steady stream of observations, years a steady stream of observations, mission statements, mission statements, mission statements, crazy attempts to do this, that or the crazy attempts to do this, that or the crazy attempts to do this, that or the other thing that very often ended up not other thing that very often ended up not other thing that very often ended up not being what everyone else was doing. being what everyone else was doing. being what everyone else was doing. Partly because we weren't consuming the Partly because we weren't consuming the Partly because we weren't consuming the same water. Now, neither Jason or I have same water. Now, neither Jason or I have same water. Now, neither Jason or I have been in Silicon Valley. We were not been in Silicon Valley. We were not been in Silicon Valley. We were not products of that. However much I have products of that. However much I have products of that. However much I have tremendous respect for everything that's tremendous respect for everything that's tremendous respect for everything that's come out of that place, it does have a come out of that place, it does have a come out of that place, it does have a tendency to produce uniform thinking tendency to produce uniform thinking tendency to produce uniform thinking around a whole host of big topics. And around a whole host of big topics. And around a whole host of big topics. And 37 Signals was born in Chicago at a time 37 Signals was born in Chicago at a time 37 Signals was born in Chicago at a time where that had zero where that had zero where that had zero tech community of note. It wasn't until tech community of note. It wasn't until tech community of note. It wasn't until much later and Groupon and all these much later and Groupon and all these much later and Groupon and all these other things that some life was bred other things that some life was bred other things that some life was bred into the Chicago tech scene, but when we into the Chicago tech scene, but when we into the Chicago tech scene, but when we were coming up, there was no one there. were coming up, there was no one there. were coming up, there was no one there. So, we just had the luxury of distance So, we just had the luxury of distance So, we just had the luxury of distance to everyone else's eco chamber, which to everyone else's eco chamber, which to everyone else's eco chamber, which meant that original thought was meant that original thought was meant that original thought was possible. I I'm not going to claim that possible. I I'm not going to claim that possible. I I'm not going to claim that all the original thought was good. But I all the original thought was good. But I all the original thought was good. But I will claim that if you look back upon will claim that if you look back upon will claim that if you look back upon some of the things that we wrote now 20 some of the things that we wrote now 20 some of the things that we wrote now 20 years ago, Getting Real, the first book, years ago, Getting Real, the first book, years ago, Getting Real, the first book, that manifesto from 99, Rework from that manifesto from 99, Rework from that manifesto from 99, Rework from 2010, 2010, 2010, a lot of that stuff still holds up a lot of that stuff still holds up a lot of that stuff still holds up because it's focused on fundamentals and because it's focused on fundamentals and because it's focused on fundamentals and focused on extracting lessons from our focused on extracting lessons from our focused on extracting lessons from our work, producing something that was work, producing something that was work, producing something that was worthwhile and lasted. worthwhile and lasted. worthwhile and lasted. All right, so this episode is all about All right, so this episode is all about All right, so this episode is all about excellence. A while back, I shared my excellence. A while back, I shared my excellence. A while back, I shared my personal framework for building personal framework for building personal framework for building excellence in my own life, and the team excellence in my own life, and the team excellence in my own life, and the team at HubSpot turned it into a 30-day at HubSpot turned it into a 30-day at HubSpot turned it into a 30-day operating system you can check out right operating system you can check out right operating system you can check out right now. It breaks down the systems it took now. It breaks down the systems it took now. It breaks down the systems it took me 10 years to figure out and shows how me 10 years to figure out and shows how me 10 years to figure out and shows how I actually use them dayto-day. These are I actually use them dayto-day. These are I actually use them dayto-day. These are systems that genuinely changed my life. systems that genuinely changed my life. systems that genuinely changed my life. So, if you want to build a good life, So, if you want to build a good life, So, if you want to build a good life, scan the QR code or click the link in scan the QR code or click the link in scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Now, let's get back to the description. Now, let's get back to the description. Now, let's get back to the show. the show. the show. So 20 years ago, you were in your 20s So 20 years ago, you were in your 20s So 20 years ago, you were in your 20s and I don't know how successful you and I don't know how successful you and I don't know how successful you were. I would imagine uh mildly were. I would imagine uh mildly were. I would imagine uh mildly successful, but still had a lot to go. successful, but still had a lot to go. successful, but still had a lot to go. And yet you were giving advice. I think And yet you were giving advice. I think And yet you were giving advice. I think a lot of people listening, myself a lot of people listening, myself a lot of people listening, myself included, when I hear you talk about included, when I hear you talk about included, when I hear you talk about teaching versus uh teaching versus teaching versus uh teaching versus teaching versus uh teaching versus spending. I think that's great advice, spending. I think that's great advice, spending. I think that's great advice, but I'm like, I don't want to give but I'm like, I don't want to give but I'm like, I don't want to give advice when there's so many people that advice when there's so many people that advice when there's so many people that are more successful than me. They should are more successful than me. They should are more successful than me. They should be giving advice. You know, this sort of be giving advice. You know, this sort of be giving advice. You know, this sort of imposttor syndrome stuff. How did you imposttor syndrome stuff. How did you imposttor syndrome stuff. How did you justify teaching fundamentals, teaching justify teaching fundamentals, teaching justify teaching fundamentals, teaching advice, and writing a book on work when advice, and writing a book on work when advice, and writing a book on work when you're still in your 20s and there was you're still in your 20s and there was you're still in your 20s and there was probably a thousand people that were probably a thousand people that were probably a thousand people that were above you that could have been like, above you that could have been like, above you that could have been like, "What the hell does this guy know?" "What the hell does this guy know?" "What the hell does this guy know?" >> Part of it, I think, is genetics. I've >> Part of it, I think, is genetics. I've >> Part of it, I think, is genetics. I've been blessed with a completely been blessed with a completely been blessed with a completely irreverent personality that thrives in irreverent personality that thrives in irreverent personality that thrives in exactly those kinds of circumstances. I exactly those kinds of circumstances. I exactly those kinds of circumstances. I don't give a damn what people think I don't give a damn what people think I don't give a damn what people think I can and can't say. I'm going to call it can and can't say. I'm going to call it can and can't say. I'm going to call it like I see it when I see it. whether I'm like I see it when I see it. whether I'm like I see it when I see it. whether I'm 19 or 15 or 46 or 37. 19 or 15 or 46 or 37. 19 or 15 or 46 or 37. And the other aspect of that is that And the other aspect of that is that And the other aspect of that is that both Jason and I did spend quite a long both Jason and I did spend quite a long both Jason and I did spend quite a long time working for other people. Now, long time working for other people. Now, long time working for other people. Now, long time in the grand scheme of things, did time in the grand scheme of things, did time in the grand scheme of things, did we spend 20 years? No. But I'd been we spend 20 years? No. But I'd been we spend 20 years? No. But I'd been working since I was 15. Uh well, even working since I was 15. Uh well, even working since I was 15. Uh well, even earlier than that, but I've been working earlier than that, but I've been working earlier than that, but I've been working for other people directly in the sense for other people directly in the sense for other people directly in the sense of I have a boss since I was 15. So by of I have a boss since I was 15. So by of I have a boss since I was 15. So by the time I'm 26, I've been in business the time I'm 26, I've been in business the time I'm 26, I've been in business to whatever degree that is, either as an to whatever degree that is, either as an to whatever degree that is, either as an employee or running myself for a decade employee or running myself for a decade employee or running myself for a decade now. I don't even think you need that. I now. I don't even think you need that. I now. I don't even think you need that. I think what you need is exposure to novel think what you need is exposure to novel think what you need is exposure to novel terrain terrain terrain with enough sort of influences and being with enough sort of influences and being with enough sort of influences and being informed somewhat of what other people informed somewhat of what other people informed somewhat of what other people think and then like your token think and then like your token think and then like your token generation machine will start producing. generation machine will start producing. generation machine will start producing. If you are of the kind of constitution If you are of the kind of constitution If you are of the kind of constitution that I am, which is one of the ways I that I am, which is one of the ways I that I am, which is one of the ways I try to internalize the best lessons from try to internalize the best lessons from try to internalize the best lessons from what I'm going through is to share is what I'm going through is to share is what I'm going through is to share is the old adage that nothing makes you the old adage that nothing makes you the old adage that nothing makes you learn a subject better than trying to learn a subject better than trying to learn a subject better than trying to teach it. teach it. teach it. >> Very much true when it comes to this. >> Very much true when it comes to this. >> Very much true when it comes to this. Now the other fact of that is there's Now the other fact of that is there's Now the other fact of that is there's this great paradigm of uh liquid versus this great paradigm of uh liquid versus this great paradigm of uh liquid versus um crystallized intelligence. um crystallized intelligence. um crystallized intelligence. If you look at Nobel Prize winners who If you look at Nobel Prize winners who If you look at Nobel Prize winners who win in physics and chemistry and math win in physics and chemistry and math win in physics and chemistry and math and so on, they all do their formative and so on, they all do their formative and so on, they all do their formative work in their 20s basically. Then work in their 20s basically. Then work in their 20s basically. Then there's a a decade of of application in there's a a decade of of application in there's a a decade of of application in their 30s and then they get the Nobel their 30s and then they get the Nobel their 30s and then they get the Nobel Prize for that work they did in their Prize for that work they did in their Prize for that work they did in their 20s in their 40s. Part of that is just 20s in their 40s. Part of that is just 20s in their 40s. Part of that is just biology. biology. biology. I mean, I remember when Mark Zuckerberg I mean, I remember when Mark Zuckerberg I mean, I remember when Mark Zuckerberg said this, and it was hugely said this, and it was hugely said this, and it was hugely controversial. I think this was in the controversial. I think this was in the controversial. I think this was in the 2000s. He said something to the effect 2000s. He said something to the effect 2000s. He said something to the effect of young people are just smarter and of young people are just smarter and of young people are just smarter and everyone was like you can't say that everyone was like you can't say that everyone was like you can't say that like that is just so wrong. Well, it's like that is just so wrong. Well, it's like that is just so wrong. Well, it's not wrong in a certain category of not wrong in a certain category of not wrong in a certain category of intelligence this form of liquid intelligence this form of liquid intelligence this form of liquid intelligence, smart uh fast signups intelligence, smart uh fast signups intelligence, smart uh fast signups firing stuff. Young people are smarter firing stuff. Young people are smarter firing stuff. Young people are smarter like just like they run faster, right? like just like they run faster, right? like just like they run faster, right? Like you don't have a lot of uh I don't Like you don't have a lot of uh I don't Like you don't have a lot of uh I don't know 100 meter sprinters who are 42. know 100 meter sprinters who are 42. know 100 meter sprinters who are 42. That's just not part of the human That's just not part of the human That's just not part of the human physique. Now you get the payoff when physique. Now you get the payoff when physique. Now you get the payoff when you get older that you have more of the you get older that you have more of the you get older that you have more of the crystallized intelligence. You can make crystallized intelligence. You can make crystallized intelligence. You can make more connections. If you look at Nobel more connections. If you look at Nobel more connections. If you look at Nobel Prize winners in history, I think the Prize winners in history, I think the Prize winners in history, I think the average age is like 80, right? Like average age is like 80, right? Like average age is like 80, right? Like those connections come later. So I have those connections come later. So I have those connections come later. So I have tremendous respect for that liquid tremendous respect for that liquid tremendous respect for that liquid intelligence that's at once both very intelligence that's at once both very intelligence that's at once both very smart, very quick and also totally smart, very quick and also totally smart, very quick and also totally ignorant. Has no sense of the broader ignorant. Has no sense of the broader ignorant. Has no sense of the broader world. Has no sense of what you're world. Has no sense of what you're world. Has no sense of what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do. allowed to do and not allowed to do. allowed to do and not allowed to do. Have no sense of someone knows more Have no sense of someone knows more Have no sense of someone knows more therefore I should shut up. Right? I therefore I should shut up. Right? I therefore I should shut up. Right? I look upon back upon that time and go look upon back upon that time and go look upon back upon that time and go like I am so glad I embraced all that like I am so glad I embraced all that like I am so glad I embraced all that ignorance with the hubris of early ignorance with the hubris of early ignorance with the hubris of early 20somes like that's how we changed the 20somes like that's how we changed the 20somes like that's how we changed the world in a very literal sense the new world in a very literal sense the new world in a very literal sense the new ideas ideas ideas >> very often come from that vector >> very often come from that vector >> very often come from that vector >> that's no nobody loves a cautious >> that's no nobody loves a cautious >> that's no nobody loves a cautious 20-year-old the founder of uh co-founder 20-year-old the founder of uh co-founder 20-year-old the founder of uh co-founder of HubSpot came on this podcast he of HubSpot came on this podcast he of HubSpot came on this podcast he talked about in his first company he was talked about in his first company he was talked about in his first company he was making everything up and in his second making everything up and in his second making everything up and in his second company he said oh now I I know how I'm company he said oh now I I know how I'm company he said oh now I I know how I'm going to do everything differently and going to do everything differently and going to do everything differently and it totally failed. And he goes, "Just it totally failed. And he goes, "Just it totally failed. And he goes, "Just because I was ignorant doesn't mean I because I was ignorant doesn't mean I because I was ignorant doesn't mean I was wrong." And there's there's was wrong." And there's there's was wrong." And there's there's something to the uh to to that idea of something to the uh to to that idea of something to the uh to to that idea of like you can be both ignorant and like you can be both ignorant and like you can be both ignorant and correct. I'd go so far as to say that correct. I'd go so far as to say that correct. I'd go so far as to say that ignorance is a benefit for a huge class ignorance is a benefit for a huge class ignorance is a benefit for a huge class of problems that you are cursed when of problems that you are cursed when of problems that you are cursed when you've been through the loop once. When you've been through the loop once. When you've been through the loop once. When you know too much, you cannot unseed. In you know too much, you cannot unseed. In you know too much, you cannot unseed. In the same way you will be locked into the same way you will be locked into the same way you will be locked into paradigms and thought patterns and if paradigms and thought patterns and if paradigms and thought patterns and if you want to break those paradigms if you you want to break those paradigms if you you want to break those paradigms if you want to break those thought patterns you want to break those thought patterns you want to break those thought patterns you kind of got to start from a clean slate. kind of got to start from a clean slate. kind of got to start from a clean slate. Now that's not universally true in all Now that's not universally true in all Now that's not universally true in all cases, but I do think it describes the cases, but I do think it describes the cases, but I do think it describes the case that Jason or I went through that case that Jason or I went through that case that Jason or I went through that we had some input which was working for we had some input which was working for we had some input which was working for other people working at a crazy time in other people working at a crazy time in other people working at a crazy time in our industry maybe second craziest time our industry maybe second craziest time our industry maybe second craziest time next to right now next to right now next to right now >> which was the dotcom boom and bust >> which was the dotcom boom and bust >> which was the dotcom boom and bust >> both of us went through it both on the >> both of us went through it both on the >> both of us went through it both on the way up and on the way down and saw all way up and on the way down and saw all way up and on the way down and saw all the dynamics play out where I think if the dynamics play out where I think if the dynamics play out where I think if you compress those years from let's say you compress those years from let's say you compress those years from let's say 97 7 to 2001. Like that's only four 97 7 to 2001. Like that's only four 97 7 to 2001. Like that's only four years. That was instruction worth a years. That was instruction worth a years. That was instruction worth a decade at least, maybe two, because decade at least, maybe two, because decade at least, maybe two, because there was just so much happening. You there was just so much happening. You there was just so much happening. You got all the explosion of here's the got all the explosion of here's the got all the explosion of here's the internet. What are we going to do with internet. What are we going to do with internet. What are we going to do with it? Build into the wild castles in the it? Build into the wild castles in the it? Build into the wild castles in the sky that came tumbling down in 2001 as sky that came tumbling down in 2001 as sky that came tumbling down in 2001 as the com boom burst. So we had all those the com boom burst. So we had all those the com boom burst. So we had all those inputs, right? like all those inputs, right? like all those inputs, right? like all those experiences and then we kind of started experiences and then we kind of started experiences and then we kind of started in the desert when Jason and I got going in the desert when Jason and I got going in the desert when Jason and I got going with Base Camp. This is back 2003. with Base Camp. This is back 2003. with Base Camp. This is back 2003. We start working on it. It's still a We start working on it. It's still a We start working on it. It's still a wasteland, right? Like the dotcom bust wasteland, right? Like the dotcom bust wasteland, right? Like the dotcom bust have exploded everything. You got have exploded everything. You got have exploded everything. You got programmers going back to being chefs or programmers going back to being chefs or programmers going back to being chefs or gardeners or whatever. There was simply gardeners or whatever. There was simply gardeners or whatever. There was simply no work to be had because the whole no work to be had because the whole no work to be had because the whole industry blew itself up. And in that industry blew itself up. And in that industry blew itself up. And in that wasteland, we just go like, "God, do you wasteland, we just go like, "God, do you wasteland, we just go like, "God, do you know what? We now have to be scrappy. We know what? We now have to be scrappy. We know what? We now have to be scrappy. We now have to rely on ourselves. We have now have to rely on ourselves. We have now have to rely on ourselves. We have to be tremendously productive because we to be tremendously productive because we to be tremendously productive because we can't hire a team of 50. We can't buy can't hire a team of 50. We can't buy can't hire a team of 50. We can't buy tons of servers. We have to use open tons of servers. We have to use open tons of servers. We have to use open source because we can't afford licenses source because we can't afford licenses source because we can't afford licenses for Oracle databases. All of those for Oracle databases. All of those for Oracle databases. All of those constraints apply themselves to our constraints apply themselves to our constraints apply themselves to our situation and then just produces an situation and then just produces an situation and then just produces an explosion of creativity because that's explosion of creativity because that's explosion of creativity because that's what very often happens. When you are what very often happens. When you are what very often happens. When you are deprived in all the right ways, you will deprived in all the right ways, you will deprived in all the right ways, you will find out, oh, there's a better way to do find out, oh, there's a better way to do find out, oh, there's a better way to do this. You will find out the this. You will find out the this. You will find out the optimizations. Like a parallel to today optimizations. Like a parallel to today optimizations. Like a parallel to today is the big is the big is the big scary moment for the US AI industry was scary moment for the US AI industry was scary moment for the US AI industry was when Deep Seek put out R1. And some of when Deep Seek put out R1. And some of when Deep Seek put out R1. And some of this is mythology, some of it is this is mythology, some of it is this is mythology, some of it is [ __ ] but the storyline at the time [ __ ] but the storyline at the time [ __ ] but the storyline at the time was they could not buy Nvidia CPUs due was they could not buy Nvidia CPUs due was they could not buy Nvidia CPUs due to export restraints. They trained the to export restraints. They trained the to export restraints. They trained the whole thing on 5 million. I know there's whole thing on 5 million. I know there's whole thing on 5 million. I know there's reservations and asterisks behind that, reservations and asterisks behind that, reservations and asterisks behind that, but the fundamental principle was they but the fundamental principle was they but the fundamental principle was they came up with some novel new techniques came up with some novel new techniques came up with some novel new techniques of using vastly less compute to still of using vastly less compute to still of using vastly less compute to still get quite far. And I think that applies get quite far. And I think that applies get quite far. And I think that applies very much to our situation at the time. very much to our situation at the time. very much to our situation at the time. We just we didn't have millions of We just we didn't have millions of We just we didn't have millions of dollars. We had a consulting business dollars. We had a consulting business dollars. We had a consulting business that we had to make pay for all these that we had to make pay for all these that we had to make pay for all these experiments we wanted to do. And experiments we wanted to do. And experiments we wanted to do. And therefore, we just had to be radically therefore, we just had to be radically therefore, we just had to be radically more productive. I mean this in my case more productive. I mean this in my case more productive. I mean this in my case on the technical side was the birth of on the technical side was the birth of on the technical side was the birth of Ruby on Rails. I could not use the same Ruby on Rails. I could not use the same Ruby on Rails. I could not use the same technology as everyone else was using technology as everyone else was using technology as everyone else was using because I had a tenth, a hundth, a because I had a tenth, a hundth, a because I had a tenth, a hundth, a thousandth of the capacity. Therefore, I thousandth of the capacity. Therefore, I thousandth of the capacity. Therefore, I had to use something else. I had to use had to use something else. I had to use had to use something else. I had to use something or come up with something that something or come up with something that something or come up with something that allowed me as an individual programmer allowed me as an individual programmer allowed me as an individual programmer and technical person in the whole and technical person in the whole and technical person in the whole operation to build base camp by myself. operation to build base camp by myself. operation to build base camp by myself. On the technical side, I am forever On the technical side, I am forever On the technical side, I am forever grateful that these were the constraints grateful that these were the constraints grateful that these were the constraints we were under. If we had raised, I don't we were under. If we had raised, I don't we were under. If we had raised, I don't know, $20 million and hired 100 people, know, $20 million and hired 100 people, know, $20 million and hired 100 people, we would just use the same [ __ ] as we would just use the same [ __ ] as we would just use the same [ __ ] as everyone else and we would never have everyone else and we would never have everyone else and we would never have come up with Ruby on Rails. Do you guys come up with Ruby on Rails. Do you guys come up with Ruby on Rails. Do you guys want to hear a crazy stat? Uh, Nobel want to hear a crazy stat? Uh, Nobel want to hear a crazy stat? Uh, Nobel Prize scientists are 22 to 25 times more Prize scientists are 22 to 25 times more Prize scientists are 22 to 25 times more likely to be in some type of performing likely to be in some type of performing likely to be in some type of performing class. So, acting, magicians, singing, class. So, acting, magicians, singing, class. So, acting, magicians, singing, or some type of like art like drawing or or some type of like art like drawing or or some type of like art like drawing or whatever. Is that right? whatever. Is that right? whatever. Is that right? >> 22 times more likely. I read about that >> 22 times more likely. I read about that >> 22 times more likely. I read about that in Bill Gurley's book and then I just in Bill Gurley's book and then I just in Bill Gurley's book and then I just looked it up uh and it's like a it's looked it up uh and it's like a it's looked it up uh and it's like a it's like a a study. And the reason I'm like a a study. And the reason I'm like a a study. And the reason I'm bringing this up is I've been I've been bringing this up is I've been I've been bringing this up is I've been I've been obsessed over that fact that just seems obsessed over that fact that just seems obsessed over that fact that just seems astronomical. And then you brought up astronomical. And then you brought up astronomical. And then you brought up the idea of crystallized versus liquid the idea of crystallized versus liquid the idea of crystallized versus liquid uh knowledge and it just solidifies uh knowledge and it just solidifies uh knowledge and it just solidifies that. It kind of adds to that. Isn't that. It kind of adds to that. Isn't that. It kind of adds to that. Isn't that a crazy stat? that a crazy stat? that a crazy stat? >> That is wild. And do you know what's >> That is wild. And do you know what's >> That is wild. And do you know what's funny? I mean, we all read in whatever funny? I mean, we all read in whatever funny? I mean, we all read in whatever we want into factoids like that, but we want into factoids like that, but we want into factoids like that, but when I was a kid, what I really enjoyed when I was a kid, what I really enjoyed when I was a kid, what I really enjoyed being was the dungeon master. So, I being was the dungeon master. So, I being was the dungeon master. So, I played Dungeons and Dragons and other played Dungeons and Dragons and other played Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing games, and most people, role playing games, and most people, role playing games, and most people, they just wanted to be a character. I they just wanted to be a character. I they just wanted to be a character. I wanted to run the world. So, I think wanted to run the world. So, I think wanted to run the world. So, I think there were some um sort of uh early there were some um sort of uh early there were some um sort of uh early indicators that I like to sort of world indicators that I like to sort of world indicators that I like to sort of world build build build also in game. My favorite game of all also in game. My favorite game of all also in game. My favorite game of all time is Civilization 1, the original Sid time is Civilization 1, the original Sid time is Civilization 1, the original Sid Meyers game, which is obviously about Meyers game, which is obviously about Meyers game, which is obviously about world building. So some of those things world building. So some of those things world building. So some of those things were were present early on and having were were present early on and having were were present early on and having positive experience building and positive experience building and positive experience building and bootstrapping with others, having to bootstrapping with others, having to bootstrapping with others, having to convince others before you even have convince others before you even have convince others before you even have money to pay them salaries that they money to pay them salaries that they money to pay them salaries that they should go in your direction and we should go in your direction and we should go in your direction and we should work on this thing together and should work on this thing together and should work on this thing together and you should come into my dungeon is I you should come into my dungeon is I you should come into my dungeon is I think exceptionally good preparation for think exceptionally good preparation for think exceptionally good preparation for running communities, running open running communities, running open running communities, running open source, running a company. source, running a company. source, running a company. >> You know who else's favorite game was >> You know who else's favorite game was >> You know who else's favorite game was civilization? Mark Zuckerberg. You know civilization? Mark Zuckerberg. You know civilization? Mark Zuckerberg. You know who else? Evil. who else? Evil. who else? Evil. >> Yeah. Both of them have talked a lot >> Yeah. Both of them have talked a lot >> Yeah. Both of them have talked a lot about uh playing civilization early on about uh playing civilization early on about uh playing civilization early on and I feel like they almost had to stop and I feel like they almost had to stop and I feel like they almost had to stop talking about it for a while when the PR talking about it for a while when the PR talking about it for a while when the PR got kind of bad and it's like they want got kind of bad and it's like they want got kind of bad and it's like they want to play, you know, play God a little to play, you know, play God a little to play, you know, play God a little bit, but now it's it's cool again. bit, but now it's it's cool again. bit, but now it's it's cool again. Speaking of Facebook and Zuckerberg, you Speaking of Facebook and Zuckerberg, you Speaking of Facebook and Zuckerberg, you you've gotten a lot of things right. You you've gotten a lot of things right. You you've gotten a lot of things right. You know, I think you guys were really early know, I think you guys were really early know, I think you guys were really early to remote work as a concept and you to remote work as a concept and you to remote work as a concept and you know, obviously, you know, being know, obviously, you know, being know, obviously, you know, being profitable as a strategy is that is, you profitable as a strategy is that is, you profitable as a strategy is that is, you know, was, you know, somehow contrarian know, was, you know, somehow contrarian know, was, you know, somehow contrarian at the time. But one thing you got wrong at the time. But one thing you got wrong at the time. But one thing you got wrong famously was you wrote this post called famously was you wrote this post called famously was you wrote this post called Facebook is not worth 33 billion. And Facebook is not worth 33 billion. And Facebook is not worth 33 billion. And you wrote this great post in 2010. I you wrote this great post in 2010. I you wrote this great post in 2010. I think Facebook had probably just gone think Facebook had probably just gone think Facebook had probably just gone public or was close to it. And you public or was close to it. And you public or was close to it. And you basically said Facebook's a great basically said Facebook's a great basically said Facebook's a great success. 500 million people use it, but success. 500 million people use it, but success. 500 million people use it, but it's not worth 33 billion. laid out this it's not worth 33 billion. laid out this it's not worth 33 billion. laid out this case as to why that was not true. Now, case as to why that was not true. Now, case as to why that was not true. Now, looking back on this now, I guess is it looking back on this now, I guess is it looking back on this now, I guess is it do you just look at that as I got it do you just look at that as I got it do you just look at that as I got it wrong or is it actually I think the wrong or is it actually I think the wrong or is it actually I think the kernel of what I was saying was right, kernel of what I was saying was right, kernel of what I was saying was right, but you know, I guess how do you think but you know, I guess how do you think but you know, I guess how do you think about this blog post now? I love that about this blog post now? I love that about this blog post now? I love that blog post and it's funny because people blog post and it's funny because people blog post and it's funny because people often pull it forward to dunk, right? often pull it forward to dunk, right? often pull it forward to dunk, right? Like, hey, look, 17 years ago, you got a Like, hey, look, 17 years ago, you got a Like, hey, look, 17 years ago, you got a thing wrong. And what I love even more thing wrong. And what I love even more thing wrong. And what I love even more is it's often BC's, right? You're like, is it's often BC's, right? You're like, is it's often BC's, right? You're like, hey, wait a minute. Isn't your business hey, wait a minute. Isn't your business hey, wait a minute. Isn't your business to be wrong nine out of 10 times? Wasn't to be wrong nine out of 10 times? Wasn't to be wrong nine out of 10 times? Wasn't your last fund just wrong on the vast your last fund just wrong on the vast your last fund just wrong on the vast majority of all the investments that you majority of all the investments that you majority of all the investments that you made? Oh, okay. Well, let's start from made? Oh, okay. Well, let's start from made? Oh, okay. Well, let's start from that premise. But I don't even care. I that premise. But I don't even care. I that premise. But I don't even care. I don't even care. I love that article don't even care. I love that article don't even care. I love that article because it's both a good example of uh because it's both a good example of uh because it's both a good example of uh being wrong and accepting that in terms being wrong and accepting that in terms being wrong and accepting that in terms of outcomes yet trying to draw better of outcomes yet trying to draw better of outcomes yet trying to draw better conclusions than just like I got it conclusions than just like I got it conclusions than just like I got it wrong at the gambling table, right? Like wrong at the gambling table, right? Like wrong at the gambling table, right? Like I should have bet on Facebook. if I I should have bet on Facebook. if I I should have bet on Facebook. if I bought stock at that time rather than bought stock at that time rather than bought stock at that time rather than say they weren't worth it, I would have say they weren't worth it, I would have say they weren't worth it, I would have made so much money, right? And a great made so much money, right? And a great made so much money, right? And a great term that I learned from this uh poker term that I learned from this uh poker term that I learned from this uh poker book is called resulting. book is called resulting. book is called resulting. >> And in poker, there's this concept of >> And in poker, there's this concept of >> And in poker, there's this concept of you analyze. Well, not just analyze, you you analyze. Well, not just analyze, you you analyze. Well, not just analyze, you know what the odds are given the cards know what the odds are given the cards know what the odds are given the cards that you have, the cards on the table, that you have, the cards on the table, that you have, the cards on the table, what are the odds that you're going to what are the odds that you're going to what are the odds that you're going to make whatever hand you're trying to do, make whatever hand you're trying to do, make whatever hand you're trying to do, right? right? right? And if you delude yourself into And if you delude yourself into And if you delude yourself into thinking, I should keep playing 16% thinking, I should keep playing 16% thinking, I should keep playing 16% hands. I should just go all in on 16% hands. I should just go all in on 16% hands. I should just go all in on 16% because do you know what? I won the last because do you know what? I won the last because do you know what? I won the last three. three. three. You're idiot and you're going to lose You're idiot and you're going to lose You're idiot and you're going to lose all your money. That's not how to win in all your money. That's not how to win in all your money. That's not how to win in poker. The way to win in poker is to poker. The way to win in poker is to poker. The way to win in poker is to make sure you predominantly play hands make sure you predominantly play hands make sure you predominantly play hands that have the best odds. that have the best odds. that have the best odds. Just as much if you go all in on a hand Just as much if you go all in on a hand Just as much if you go all in on a hand that has 87% odds of success and you that has 87% odds of success and you that has 87% odds of success and you lose, you're an idiot. If you draw the lose, you're an idiot. If you draw the lose, you're an idiot. If you draw the conclusion that you shouldn't have gone conclusion that you shouldn't have gone conclusion that you shouldn't have gone in on that hand, totally should have in on that hand, totally should have in on that hand, totally should have gone in on that hand. So resulting is gone in on that hand. So resulting is gone in on that hand. So resulting is evaluating your decision on the basis of evaluating your decision on the basis of evaluating your decision on the basis of the outcome alone. Now obviously you the outcome alone. Now obviously you the outcome alone. Now obviously you can't divorce those two things, but you can't divorce those two things, but you can't divorce those two things, but you got to do it on a longer trend line. got to do it on a longer trend line. got to do it on a longer trend line. Everyone is going to miss a shot, not Everyone is going to miss a shot, not Everyone is going to miss a shot, not just one shot that's going to miss a 100 just one shot that's going to miss a 100 just one shot that's going to miss a 100 shot, a thousand shot, a million shots shot, a thousand shot, a million shots shot, a thousand shot, a million shots over the course of their careers. In over the course of their careers. In over the course of their careers. In fact, this is why the VC parallel is so fact, this is why the VC parallel is so fact, this is why the VC parallel is so important. VCs have gotten tremendously important. VCs have gotten tremendously important. VCs have gotten tremendously rich being right 10% of the time. I rich being right 10% of the time. I rich being right 10% of the time. I mean, isn't that I mean, that's an mean, isn't that I mean, that's an mean, isn't that I mean, that's an incredible stat for me that you're able incredible stat for me that you're able incredible stat for me that you're able to build such wealth on being so wrong to build such wealth on being so wrong to build such wealth on being so wrong so often. But let's even dig into the so often. But let's even dig into the so often. But let's even dig into the merits because I love the case of that merits because I love the case of that merits because I love the case of that too. When I did that analysis on too. When I did that analysis on too. When I did that analysis on Facebook, they did not have a Facebook, they did not have a Facebook, they did not have a monetization strategy. What they had was monetization strategy. What they had was monetization strategy. What they had was a lot of traffic and I pair or or I a lot of traffic and I pair or or I a lot of traffic and I pair or or I pattern matched that traffic on I don't pattern matched that traffic on I don't pattern matched that traffic on I don't know if this is two world but there was know if this is two world but there was know if this is two world but there was something called blue mountain I think something called blue mountain I think something called blue mountain I think back in 200 website. back in 200 website. back in 200 website. >> Yes. Yes. They were tremendously popular >> Yes. Yes. They were tremendously popular >> Yes. Yes. They were tremendously popular at the time. They had a ton of traffic at the time. They had a ton of traffic at the time. They had a ton of traffic right and all the traffic brought them right and all the traffic brought them right and all the traffic brought them was ruined because they did not have a was ruined because they did not have a was ruined because they did not have a mechanism for d turning that traffic mechanism for d turning that traffic mechanism for d turning that traffic into gold. It was just trash. It was into gold. It was just trash. It was into gold. It was just trash. It was trash traffic. It was just people who trash traffic. It was just people who trash traffic. It was just people who wanted an e-card and what are you going wanted an e-card and what are you going wanted an e-card and what are you going to do with that? Maybe today you could to do with that? Maybe today you could to do with that? Maybe today you could make it work. They certainly couldn't at make it work. They certainly couldn't at make it work. They certainly couldn't at the time. My analysis was Facebook is the time. My analysis was Facebook is the time. My analysis was Facebook is trash traffic. It's just a bunch of trash traffic. It's just a bunch of trash traffic. It's just a bunch of people talking about all sorts of [ __ ] people talking about all sorts of [ __ ] people talking about all sorts of [ __ ] that isn't intentional in the way that a that isn't intentional in the way that a that isn't intentional in the way that a Google search, for example, is. At the Google search, for example, is. At the Google search, for example, is. At the time, the surveillance capitalism time, the surveillance capitalism time, the surveillance capitalism paradigm was probably already under well paradigm was probably already under well paradigm was probably already under well under construction, but not widely under construction, but not widely under construction, but not widely distributed like that. This was the distributed like that. This was the distributed like that. This was the alchemy that was going to turn absolute alchemy that was going to turn absolute alchemy that was going to turn absolute trash traffic into gold because trash traffic into gold because trash traffic into gold because surveillance capital flipped it on its surveillance capital flipped it on its surveillance capital flipped it on its head that it did not matter whether head that it did not matter whether head that it did not matter whether intent was there. If we know everything intent was there. If we know everything intent was there. If we know everything about everyone at all times, all that about everyone at all times, all that about everyone at all times, all that matters is eyeball time. Because now we matters is eyeball time. Because now we matters is eyeball time. Because now we can pinpoint whether an ad should be can pinpoint whether an ad should be can pinpoint whether an ad should be shown or not shown on the basis of who shown or not shown on the basis of who shown or not shown on the basis of who they are, not what they're talking they are, not what they're talking they are, not what they're talking about. So they could be talking about about. So they could be talking about about. So they could be talking about the most deranged stupid stuff and we the most deranged stupid stuff and we the most deranged stupid stuff and we can make better ads happen because we can make better ads happen because we can make better ads happen because we can target those individual than a golf can target those individual than a golf can target those individual than a golf magazine online can do on golf ads, magazine online can do on golf ads, magazine online can do on golf ads, right? Like I don't know if that person right? Like I don't know if that person right? Like I don't know if that person is currently having buyers intent for is currently having buyers intent for is currently having buyers intent for buying a new set of clubs, but you know buying a new set of clubs, but you know buying a new set of clubs, but you know what? Facebook probably knows whether what? Facebook probably knows whether what? Facebook probably knows whether you're within 10 miles of the gold store you're within 10 miles of the gold store you're within 10 miles of the gold store right now and you're driving towards right now and you're driving towards right now and you're driving towards whether you could be swayed one way or whether you could be swayed one way or whether you could be swayed one way or the other. So, I didn't see that. I did the other. So, I didn't see that. I did the other. So, I didn't see that. I did not realize the power of that alchemy. not realize the power of that alchemy. not realize the power of that alchemy. And by the way, nobody else did either And by the way, nobody else did either And by the way, nobody else did either because if they did, they would have because if they did, they would have because if they did, they would have gone like, "Holy [ __ ] Facebook has gone like, "Holy [ __ ] Facebook has gone like, "Holy [ __ ] Facebook has invented alchemy. Why are they only invented alchemy. Why are they only invented alchemy. Why are they only worth 33 billion? They should be worth worth 33 billion? They should be worth worth 33 billion? They should be worth half a trillion. Let's just go all in. half a trillion. Let's just go all in. half a trillion. Let's just go all in. bed, the house. No one did that, right? bed, the house. No one did that, right? bed, the house. No one did that, right? So anyway, I love it for all these So anyway, I love it for all these So anyway, I love it for all these things. I love it for resulting. I love things. I love it for resulting. I love things. I love it for resulting. I love it for this example of alchemy when it for this example of alchemy when it for this example of alchemy when someone really does figure out like a someone really does figure out like a someone really does figure out like a complete unlock on the entire internet complete unlock on the entire internet complete unlock on the entire internet business in that right moment when they business in that right moment when they business in that right moment when they also have all this trash traffic that also have all this trash traffic that also have all this trash traffic that would otherwise have been worthless. And would otherwise have been worthless. And would otherwise have been worthless. And then I just love, do you know what? I then I just love, do you know what? I then I just love, do you know what? I was wrong. And I remind myself about was wrong. And I remind myself about was wrong. And I remind myself about that on like at least a yearly basis. that on like at least a yearly basis. that on like at least a yearly basis. Sometimes more often than that when some Sometimes more often than that when some Sometimes more often than that when some VC needs to dunk and pulls out a VC needs to dunk and pulls out a VC needs to dunk and pulls out a 16-year-old blog post and I just sit 16-year-old blog post and I just sit 16-year-old blog post and I just sit back and smile. Yes, you should have back and smile. Yes, you should have back and smile. Yes, you should have some humility about your predictions. some humility about your predictions. some humility about your predictions. >> Can I tell you guys about a uh a funny >> Can I tell you guys about a uh a funny >> Can I tell you guys about a uh a funny interaction I had with your business interaction I had with your business interaction I had with your business partner, Jason? So, hey.com. So, if you partner, Jason? So, hey.com. So, if you partner, Jason? So, hey.com. So, if you guys are listening, go to hey.com. guys are listening, go to hey.com. guys are listening, go to hey.com. That's one of my favorite landing pages. That's one of my favorite landing pages. That's one of my favorite landing pages. Uh you guys are wonderful at um writing Uh you guys are wonderful at um writing Uh you guys are wonderful at um writing copy. You're obviously great at design, copy. You're obviously great at design, copy. You're obviously great at design, but like copy, which I think is like the but like copy, which I think is like the but like copy, which I think is like the forgotten um skill set in in in internet forgotten um skill set in in in internet forgotten um skill set in in in internet interneting. Copywriting is sort of like interneting. Copywriting is sort of like interneting. Copywriting is sort of like a lost art. You guys have not lost it. a lost art. You guys have not lost it. a lost art. You guys have not lost it. You and Jason both have it. And I texted You and Jason both have it. And I texted You and Jason both have it. And I texted him and I go, "Hey, I'm working on a new him and I go, "Hey, I'm working on a new him and I go, "Hey, I'm working on a new landing page for my thing and I'm using landing page for my thing and I'm using landing page for my thing and I'm using hey.com as inspiration. What's the hey.com as inspiration. What's the hey.com as inspiration. What's the conversion rate of your landing page? conversion rate of your landing page? conversion rate of your landing page? Because it looks great. It sounds great. Because it looks great. It sounds great. Because it looks great. It sounds great. Is it effective?" And he goes, "You know Is it effective?" And he goes, "You know Is it effective?" And he goes, "You know what? I I haven't really looked at it." what? I I haven't really looked at it." what? I I haven't really looked at it." And I was like, "What do you mean? You And I was like, "What do you mean? You And I was like, "What do you mean? You don't look at the uh the conversion don't look at the uh the conversion don't look at the uh the conversion rate. You don't know if it's working." rate. You don't know if it's working." rate. You don't know if it's working." and he's like, "No, I've never really and he's like, "No, I've never really and he's like, "No, I've never really thought about it. I just know that like thought about it. I just know that like thought about it. I just know that like it felt good and it and I and I think it felt good and it and I and I think it felt good and it and I and I think it's good. Therefore, uh we just ran it's good. Therefore, uh we just ran it's good. Therefore, uh we just ran with it." And I was I was in awe of that with it." And I was I was in awe of that with it." And I was I was in awe of that reply. That was the opposite of what I reply. That was the opposite of what I reply. That was the opposite of what I would have expected. Can you talk a would have expected. Can you talk a would have expected. Can you talk a little bit about the tension between little bit about the tension between little bit about the tension between good taste, which I think you have, and good taste, which I think you have, and good taste, which I think you have, and also following data because you have also following data because you have also following data because you have bills to pay and you want the you want a bills to pay and you want the you want a bills to pay and you want the you want a good outcome and you want to be great. good outcome and you want to be great. good outcome and you want to be great. You know, you're you race race cars. You know, you're you race race cars. You know, you're you race race cars. Data and like the weight of your car and Data and like the weight of your car and Data and like the weight of your car and I don't know anything about racing. I I don't know anything about racing. I I don't know anything about racing. I precision matters. Data matters. And yet precision matters. Data matters. And yet precision matters. Data matters. And yet you seem to be a follower of taste you seem to be a follower of taste you seem to be a follower of taste first. This is the luxury of margins. first. This is the luxury of margins. first. This is the luxury of margins. We have had the luxury of margins since We have had the luxury of margins since We have had the luxury of margins since day one because we built something day one because we built something day one because we built something people liked and we did not balloon the people liked and we did not balloon the people liked and we did not balloon the company to follow that interest. We grew company to follow that interest. We grew company to follow that interest. We grew the company as we needed exactly to the the company as we needed exactly to the the company as we needed exactly to the point where we were not deadly point where we were not deadly point where we were not deadly frustrated by our lack of progress on frustrated by our lack of progress on frustrated by our lack of progress on the ideas that we had which meant that the ideas that we had which meant that the ideas that we had which meant that right from the early days and through right from the early days and through right from the early days and through some period of times we had ridiculous some period of times we had ridiculous some period of times we had ridiculous margins. I mean truly when I was telling margins. I mean truly when I was telling margins. I mean truly when I was telling in confidence others about our margins in confidence others about our margins in confidence others about our margins they were like no no no you got to mean they were like no no no you got to mean they were like no no no you got to mean gross right and I'm like no that's net gross right and I'm like no that's net gross right and I'm like no that's net and they were like what do you mean I've and they were like what do you mean I've and they were like what do you mean I've never heard of a business like that never heard of a business like that never heard of a business like that >> are you able to give any uh frame or any >> are you able to give any uh frame or any >> are you able to give any uh frame or any ballpark for previous numbers if you're ballpark for previous numbers if you're ballpark for previous numbers if you're comfortable so we understand comfortable so we understand comfortable so we understand >> not really I mean let's just say >> not really I mean let's just say >> not really I mean let's just say ridiculous I think that's a that's a ridiculous I think that's a that's a ridiculous I think that's a that's a good ballpark right and certainly if you good ballpark right and certainly if you good ballpark right and certainly if you compare to any of the public SAS compare to any of the public SAS compare to any of the public SAS companies like as we were in a different companies like as we were in a different companies like as we were in a different industry Right? Like often industries industry Right? Like often industries industry Right? Like often industries have a tendency to coral around a have a tendency to coral around a have a tendency to coral around a certain profit margin and it seems like certain profit margin and it seems like certain profit margin and it seems like public market SAS is coraled around like public market SAS is coraled around like public market SAS is coraled around like I don't know minus 10% or something I don't know minus 10% or something I don't know minus 10% or something minus 20%. Ridiculously long stretches minus 20%. Ridiculously long stretches minus 20%. Ridiculously long stretches of un un uh unprofitable growth partly of un un uh unprofitable growth partly of un un uh unprofitable growth partly because there's all these other hacks of because there's all these other hacks of because there's all these other hacks of how you get money out of the business how you get money out of the business how you get money out of the business while leaving nothing for the while leaving nothing for the while leaving nothing for the shareholders like stockbased shareholders like stockbased shareholders like stockbased compensation or so forth. But that's a compensation or so forth. But that's a compensation or so forth. But that's a different discussion. Our focus from the different discussion. Our focus from the different discussion. Our focus from the beginning was the more margin we have, beginning was the more margin we have, beginning was the more margin we have, the more freedom we have. The more the more freedom we have. The more the more freedom we have. The more freedom we have, the more we could just freedom we have, the more we could just freedom we have, the more we could just focus our time on what we like to do. focus our time on what we like to do. focus our time on what we like to do. And you know what? It just so happens to And you know what? It just so happens to And you know what? It just so happens to be that neither Jason or I love running be that neither Jason or I love running be that neither Jason or I love running minutia AB tests to squeeze out 0.01. minutia AB tests to squeeze out 0.01. minutia AB tests to squeeze out 0.01. And that's very often what's needed if And that's very often what's needed if And that's very often what's needed if you want to tweak something. You run a you want to tweak something. You run a you want to tweak something. You run a thousand of these experiments, right? thousand of these experiments, right? thousand of these experiments, right? Like not two. You just you stick to it Like not two. You just you stick to it Like not two. You just you stick to it and you keep grinding away. And I think and you keep grinding away. And I think and you keep grinding away. And I think grind is actually a good word here grind is actually a good word here grind is actually a good word here because this is something I often hear because this is something I often hear because this is something I often hear entrepreneurs talk with such pride in entrepreneurs talk with such pride in entrepreneurs talk with such pride in their voice. Yeah. I I grind. Like this their voice. Yeah. I I grind. Like this their voice. Yeah. I I grind. Like this is why I'm working 100 hours a week or is why I'm working 100 hours a week or is why I'm working 100 hours a week or 120 hours a week. I'm just grinding, 120 hours a week. I'm just grinding, 120 hours a week. I'm just grinding, grinding, grinding. I'm like, okay, I grinding, grinding. I'm like, okay, I grinding, grinding. I'm like, okay, I don't want to do that. Like my life is don't want to do that. Like my life is don't want to do that. Like my life is far too interesting to waste it far too interesting to waste it far too interesting to waste it grinding. Grinding is the stupid [ __ ] grinding. Grinding is the stupid [ __ ] grinding. Grinding is the stupid [ __ ] you do in World of Warcraft when you're you do in World of Warcraft when you're you do in World of Warcraft when you're peeon. peeon. peeon. No thank you. I don't want to do that. No thank you. I don't want to do that. No thank you. I don't want to do that. So, can we just get to a place where our So, can we just get to a place where our So, can we just get to a place where our intuition intuition intuition affords us the success of our intuition affords us the success of our intuition affords us the success of our intuition affords us to just do whatever the hell affords us to just do whatever the hell affords us to just do whatever the hell we want whenever the hell we want it. we want whenever the hell we want it. we want whenever the hell we want it. That'd be great place to be. And we That'd be great place to be. And we That'd be great place to be. And we arrived at that place very early on in arrived at that place very early on in arrived at that place very early on in the life cycle of the company. But I the life cycle of the company. But I the life cycle of the company. But I will also say what's interesting about will also say what's interesting about will also say what's interesting about this is that I like numbers. I actually this is that I like numbers. I actually this is that I like numbers. I actually like statistical analysis. I like rigor. like statistical analysis. I like rigor. like statistical analysis. I like rigor. I like the confidence intervals. Not to I like the confidence intervals. Not to I like the confidence intervals. Not to the point that I want to run these AP the point that I want to run these AP the point that I want to run these AP tests myself, but to the point that like tests myself, but to the point that like tests myself, but to the point that like I have great respect for the statistical I have great respect for the statistical I have great respect for the statistical tradition. And we for many years had tradition. And we for many years had tradition. And we for many years had essentially a data scientist sort of on essentially a data scientist sort of on essentially a data scientist sort of on staff, someone who would crunch those staff, someone who would crunch those staff, someone who would crunch those numbers, do those reports, try to eek it numbers, do those reports, try to eek it numbers, do those reports, try to eek it out. And after trying that for over a out. And after trying that for over a out. And after trying that for over a decade, Jason and I finally came to the decade, Jason and I finally came to the decade, Jason and I finally came to the conclusion in honesty that we never did conclusion in honesty that we never did conclusion in honesty that we never did what the numbers told us to do. What we what the numbers told us to do. What we what the numbers told us to do. What we would do was we would do whatever the would do was we would do whatever the would do was we would do whatever the hell we wanted to do. And then if the hell we wanted to do. And then if the hell we wanted to do. And then if the numbers supported that, we'd go like, numbers supported that, we'd go like, numbers supported that, we'd go like, "Those are good numbers." And if the "Those are good numbers." And if the "Those are good numbers." And if the numbers didn't support that, we'd go numbers didn't support that, we'd go numbers didn't support that, we'd go like, "Yeah, I don't know. There's like, "Yeah, I don't know. There's like, "Yeah, I don't know. There's probably some factor you haven't probably some factor you haven't probably some factor you haven't calculated in." calculated in." calculated in." And then we just thought at the end, why And then we just thought at the end, why And then we just thought at the end, why are we doing this? Well, partly why are we doing this? Well, partly why are we doing this? Well, partly why we're doing this because we listened a we're doing this because we listened a we're doing this because we listened a little too much to other people telling little too much to other people telling little too much to other people telling us this is how you're supposed to do us this is how you're supposed to do us this is how you're supposed to do things. Now, I am not saying that this things. Now, I am not saying that this things. Now, I am not saying that this doesn't work for some definition of doesn't work for some definition of doesn't work for some definition of work. I'm saying we didn't need it. And work. I'm saying we didn't need it. And work. I'm saying we didn't need it. And that is a much nicer place to be. And if that is a much nicer place to be. And if that is a much nicer place to be. And if you are able to get there, you should you are able to get there, you should you are able to get there, you should embrace it with full gusto. If you have embrace it with full gusto. If you have embrace it with full gusto. If you have the margin to not waste the precious the margin to not waste the precious the margin to not waste the precious hours you have allotted on this earth hours you have allotted on this earth hours you have allotted on this earth doing [ __ ] that would bore you mindless. doing [ __ ] that would bore you mindless. doing [ __ ] that would bore you mindless. Don't like we never had the obligation Don't like we never had the obligation Don't like we never had the obligation to squeeze the lemon for its last drop. to squeeze the lemon for its last drop. to squeeze the lemon for its last drop. We never had the investors going like We never had the investors going like We never had the investors going like hey why is this quarter 14.79%. hey why is this quarter 14.79%. hey why is this quarter 14.79%. You promised me 16.25. You promised me 16.25. You promised me 16.25. go get the last two percentage points go get the last two percentage points go get the last two percentage points for me. We never had that. We never had for me. We never had that. We never had for me. We never had that. We never had that pressure. And therefore, we got to that pressure. And therefore, we got to that pressure. And therefore, we got to act reckless in some definition of act reckless in some definition of act reckless in some definition of prudent business operations. And I'm prudent business operations. And I'm prudent business operations. And I'm immensely proud of that recklessness. immensely proud of that recklessness. immensely proud of that recklessness. First of all, because we have outlasted First of all, because we have outlasted First of all, because we have outlasted about seven generations of competitors about seven generations of competitors about seven generations of competitors and others in the SAS space who did all and others in the SAS space who did all and others in the SAS space who did all of that, right? who did all the of that, right? who did all the of that, right? who did all the statistical analysis, who who squeezed statistical analysis, who who squeezed statistical analysis, who who squeezed the lemon in all the way, who the lemon in all the way, who the lemon in all the way, who debased their copy because for a hot debased their copy because for a hot debased their copy because for a hot second it converted slightly better and second it converted slightly better and second it converted slightly better and we didn't and we're still around. So we didn't and we're still around. So we didn't and we're still around. So part of what I take away from that is a part of what I take away from that is a part of what I take away from that is a what a nice run. B maybe all the what a nice run. B maybe all the what a nice run. B maybe all the statistical analysis is a bit of hocus statistical analysis is a bit of hocus statistical analysis is a bit of hocus pocus. And the reason I say that is not pocus. And the reason I say that is not pocus. And the reason I say that is not because the numbers aren't right or the because the numbers aren't right or the because the numbers aren't right or the math doesn't math, but because very math doesn't math, but because very math doesn't math, but because very often the missing ingredients to getting often the missing ingredients to getting often the missing ingredients to getting to the capital T truth is unknown. When to the capital T truth is unknown. When to the capital T truth is unknown. When you keep drilling down on a set of data you keep drilling down on a set of data you keep drilling down on a set of data that is highly limited and does not that is highly limited and does not that is highly limited and does not describe the world as it exists, you're describe the world as it exists, you're describe the world as it exists, you're going to steer yourself blind on that. going to steer yourself blind on that. going to steer yourself blind on that. You're going to think you found the You're going to think you found the You're going to think you found the truth and you're not hearing from all truth and you're not hearing from all truth and you're not hearing from all the customers who's not signing up. the customers who's not signing up. the customers who's not signing up. you're not hearing from the word of you're not hearing from the word of you're not hearing from the word of mouth that takes 18 months to mouth that takes 18 months to mouth that takes 18 months to materialize because those things can't materialize because those things can't materialize because those things can't get computed. get computed. get computed. >> But isn't that an absolute I mean I >> But isn't that an absolute I mean I >> But isn't that an absolute I mean I think your way works wonderfully and I think your way works wonderfully and I think your way works wonderfully and I identify with it and I want to copy you identify with it and I want to copy you identify with it and I want to copy you but you're on the board of Shopify. Uh but you're on the board of Shopify. Uh but you're on the board of Shopify. Uh they probably break so many uh dogmas or they probably break so many uh dogmas or they probably break so many uh dogmas or rules that you believe in and it's rules that you believe in and it's rules that you believe in and it's worked out really well. Totally. worked out really well. Totally. worked out really well. Totally. >> This is the great thing. Um Shishek um >> This is the great thing. Um Shishek um >> This is the great thing. Um Shishek um is this Polish or Czech I think is this Polish or Czech I think is this Polish or Czech I think philosopher has this great monologue philosopher has this great monologue philosopher has this great monologue about how he hates wisdom. I'm like how about how he hates wisdom. I'm like how about how he hates wisdom. I'm like how can anyone hate wisdom? And the reason can anyone hate wisdom? And the reason can anyone hate wisdom? And the reason he says that is for every wise axiom you he says that is for every wise axiom you he says that is for every wise axiom you can find another that says the opposite can find another that says the opposite can find another that says the opposite that also sounds wise. And both of them that also sounds wise. And both of them that also sounds wise. And both of them were extracted from mments of success were extracted from mments of success were extracted from mments of success for that individual in those for that individual in those for that individual in those circumstances. circumstances. circumstances. And that's a bit of a deflating thing And that's a bit of a deflating thing And that's a bit of a deflating thing because it could very easily sort of because it could very easily sort of because it could very easily sort of descend into nothing matters, nothing is descend into nothing matters, nothing is descend into nothing matters, nothing is true, and everything is just postmodern. true, and everything is just postmodern. true, and everything is just postmodern. I don't believe those things at all. But I don't believe those things at all. But I don't believe those things at all. But I do believe that wisdom is very I do believe that wisdom is very I do believe that wisdom is very contextual. This is all the way back to contextual. This is all the way back to contextual. This is all the way back to Newton and uh uh Einstein and the theory Newton and uh uh Einstein and the theory Newton and uh uh Einstein and the theory of relativity. When you go fast enough, of relativity. When you go fast enough, of relativity. When you go fast enough, like all the neat physic rules that are like all the neat physic rules that are like all the neat physic rules that are really helpful for calculating the apple really helpful for calculating the apple really helpful for calculating the apple dropping on your head, they just start dropping on your head, they just start dropping on your head, they just start breaking and suddenly time and space and breaking and suddenly time and space and breaking and suddenly time and space and everything is relative. So you got to everything is relative. So you got to everything is relative. So you got to know your universe. You got to focus on know your universe. You got to focus on know your universe. You got to focus on like your set of circumstances and what like your set of circumstances and what like your set of circumstances and what works in your context. And what works works in your context. And what works works in your context. And what works for a startup and a small company for a startup and a small company for a startup and a small company selling to other small companies is not selling to other small companies is not selling to other small companies is not going to be the same as what works for a going to be the same as what works for a going to be the same as what works for a Shopify. What what's the most Shopify. What what's the most Shopify. What what's the most interesting thing you've learned from interesting thing you've learned from interesting thing you've learned from being in the Shopify business or Toby? being in the Shopify business or Toby? being in the Shopify business or Toby? Uh you know if I just said what are the Uh you know if I just said what are the Uh you know if I just said what are the biggest kind of like lessons, takeaways biggest kind of like lessons, takeaways biggest kind of like lessons, takeaways that anytime you let a smart person go that anytime you let a smart person go that anytime you let a smart person go experience kind of a new novel experience kind of a new novel experience kind of a new novel environment, I'm always curious like environment, I'm always curious like environment, I'm always curious like what's the one or two things that stand what's the one or two things that stand what's the one or two things that stand out to you? out to you? out to you? >> Good question. And some of it is just >> Good question. And some of it is just >> Good question. And some of it is just awe. Like Shopify last year grew almost awe. Like Shopify last year grew almost awe. Like Shopify last year grew almost 30% year-over-year. I'm like, I would 30% year-over-year. I'm like, I would 30% year-over-year. I'm like, I would have been happy to go 30% have been happy to go 30% have been happy to go 30% year-over-year. Like, I don't know, very year-over-year. Like, I don't know, very year-over-year. Like, I don't know, very early on our uh life cycle. They're early on our uh life cycle. They're early on our uh life cycle. They're doing it from a base that's just doing it from a base that's just doing it from a base that's just unfathomable. Like the law of big unfathomable. Like the law of big unfathomable. Like the law of big numbers gets kind of wacky, right? when numbers gets kind of wacky, right? when numbers gets kind of wacky, right? when you're already doing billions and you're already doing billions and you're already doing billions and billions and you're growing at that billions and you're growing at that billions and you're growing at that rate, it just it feels like you found a rate, it just it feels like you found a rate, it just it feels like you found a glitch glitch glitch >> in the matrix somehow. And what I love >> in the matrix somehow. And what I love >> in the matrix somehow. And what I love even more about it is you can come up even more about it is you can come up even more about it is you can come up with all sorts of reasons for why that with all sorts of reasons for why that with all sorts of reasons for why that is. But you know what? even at the is. But you know what? even at the is. But you know what? even at the board. Even Toby, board. Even Toby, board. Even Toby, we don't really know like why did it we don't really know like why did it we don't really know like why did it take Shopify, what is it gonna be, 22 take Shopify, what is it gonna be, 22 take Shopify, what is it gonna be, 22 years to get to this moment where it years to get to this moment where it years to get to this moment where it just had its best year since the just had its best year since the just had its best year since the craziest of the peak co years. Isn't craziest of the peak co years. Isn't craziest of the peak co years. Isn't that fascinating? Like in many ways, the that fascinating? Like in many ways, the that fascinating? Like in many ways, the company's doing what it's done since company's doing what it's done since company's doing what it's done since Toby created Snow Devil. I just want a Toby created Snow Devil. I just want a Toby created Snow Devil. I just want a toolkit for me to create a greatlooking toolkit for me to create a greatlooking toolkit for me to create a greatlooking store rather than be in the uh basar of store rather than be in the uh basar of store rather than be in the uh basar of Amazon, right? Like pretty simple Amazon, right? Like pretty simple Amazon, right? Like pretty simple mission and they've just been chipping mission and they've just been chipping mission and they've just been chipping away that for like 20 plus years and away that for like 20 plus years and away that for like 20 plus years and suddenly the charts just go like don't suddenly the charts just go like don't suddenly the charts just go like don't >> and all these theories are are just that >> and all these theories are are just that >> and all these theories are are just that like we don't actually know. The amount like we don't actually know. The amount like we don't actually know. The amount of stuff that people don't know is of stuff that people don't know is of stuff that people don't know is amazing. I mean, I wrote a blog post a amazing. I mean, I wrote a blog post a amazing. I mean, I wrote a blog post a while back basically putting that to the while back basically putting that to the while back basically putting that to the point of nobody knows anything. And I point of nobody knows anything. And I point of nobody knows anything. And I think that's a good general take on the think that's a good general take on the think that's a good general take on the big questions. Nobody knows anything. big questions. Nobody knows anything. big questions. Nobody knows anything. Whether we're talking about climate Whether we're talking about climate Whether we're talking about climate change or what AI is going to look like change or what AI is going to look like change or what AI is going to look like in 2 years or why Shopify is able to in 2 years or why Shopify is able to in 2 years or why Shopify is able to grow 30% year-over-year in grow 30% year-over-year in grow 30% year-over-year in year 22. Uh, no one knows anything. We year 22. Uh, no one knows anything. We year 22. Uh, no one knows anything. We can have all these theories. very very can have all these theories. very very can have all these theories. very very little of it gets to be reduced to little of it gets to be reduced to little of it gets to be reduced to irrefutable proof in the sense of a math irrefutable proof in the sense of a math irrefutable proof in the sense of a math equation. Um we could talk about this equation. Um we could talk about this equation. Um we could talk about this board of directors of Shopify forever. board of directors of Shopify forever. board of directors of Shopify forever. It's so fascinating on on Toby's uh bio It's so fascinating on on Toby's uh bio It's so fascinating on on Toby's uh bio for board of directors. The last for board of directors. The last for board of directors. The last sentences he says that he was on the sentences he says that he was on the sentences he says that he was on the core team for Ruby on Rails. So I assume core team for Ruby on Rails. So I assume core team for Ruby on Rails. So I assume that you've known him for close to 25 that you've known him for close to 25 that you've known him for close to 25 years. Is there any cool stories that years. Is there any cool stories that years. Is there any cool stories that you've had about him or leadership you've had about him or leadership you've had about him or leadership lessons that we can learn because it's lessons that we can learn because it's lessons that we can learn because it's very rare. I mean building he's built very rare. I mean building he's built very rare. I mean building he's built like the 17th largest company in in the like the 17th largest company in in the like the 17th largest company in in the world. That's rare. It's also very rare world. That's rare. It's also very rare world. That's rare. It's also very rare where he's been at the helm the whole where he's been at the helm the whole where he's been at the helm the whole time. Uh, is there any anything cool time. Uh, is there any anything cool time. Uh, is there any anything cool about like the evolution of like a about like the evolution of like a about like the evolution of like a computer nerd to being like a proper CEO computer nerd to being like a proper CEO computer nerd to being like a proper CEO of a 10,000 person company? Is there of a 10,000 person company? Is there of a 10,000 person company? Is there anything cool that you can I can learn anything cool that you can I can learn anything cool that you can I can learn about that? about that? about that? >> What's funny to me is that you posit >> What's funny to me is that you posit >> What's funny to me is that you posit that as he went from one form to another that as he went from one form to another that as he went from one form to another form. Not true at all. He's still a form. Not true at all. He's still a form. Not true at all. He's still a computer nerd. computer nerd. computer nerd. >> Absolutely. As much as I'm a computer >> Absolutely. As much as I'm a computer >> Absolutely. As much as I'm a computer nerd. Actually, he's more of a computer nerd. Actually, he's more of a computer nerd. Actually, he's more of a computer nerd than I am most days. the direction nerd than I am most days. the direction nerd than I am most days. the direction of travel of him sending me cool tech of travel of him sending me cool tech of travel of him sending me cool tech stuff and me sending him cool tech stuff and me sending him cool tech stuff and me sending him cool tech stuff. I I think it's in Toby's favor. stuff. I I think it's in Toby's favor. stuff. I I think it's in Toby's favor. So he's still that person. Now obviously So he's still that person. Now obviously So he's still that person. Now obviously what he is also is now the head of this what he is also is now the head of this what he is also is now the head of this giant corporation that is responsible giant corporation that is responsible giant corporation that is responsible for I think I saw something like 15% of for I think I saw something like 15% of for I think I saw something like 15% of I mean world e-commerce a notable share I mean world e-commerce a notable share I mean world e-commerce a notable share of world GDP. I mean, that's of world GDP. I mean, that's of world GDP. I mean, that's mind-blowing in a way that I'm really mind-blowing in a way that I'm really mind-blowing in a way that I'm really happy that Toby at least doesn't give happy that Toby at least doesn't give happy that Toby at least doesn't give any appearance of internalizing into his any appearance of internalizing into his any appearance of internalizing into his character composition. He's very much character composition. He's very much character composition. He's very much still the computer nerd. And I think still the computer nerd. And I think still the computer nerd. And I think this current phase that we're in with this current phase that we're in with this current phase that we're in with the AI and the agent explosion just the AI and the agent explosion just the AI and the agent explosion just demonstrates that to a te. He was demonstrates that to a te. He was demonstrates that to a te. He was incredibly early on this stuff. some of incredibly early on this stuff. some of incredibly early on this stuff. some of the public memos that are out from the public memos that are out from the public memos that are out from Shopify. You can check their dates and Shopify. You can check their dates and Shopify. You can check their dates and then you can check Toby's predictions. then you can check Toby's predictions. then you can check Toby's predictions. And I just got to give immense respect And I just got to give immense respect And I just got to give immense respect to that because I was not that early. In to that because I was not that early. In to that because I was not that early. In fact, Toby helped drag me into the light fact, Toby helped drag me into the light fact, Toby helped drag me into the light on some of this. And some of it was also on some of this. And some of it was also on some of this. And some of it was also just like I had to see with my own eyes just like I had to see with my own eyes just like I had to see with my own eyes the agents do what they're now capable the agents do what they're now capable the agents do what they're now capable of doing before I fully flipped on it. of doing before I fully flipped on it. of doing before I fully flipped on it. But he was just really early on it. And But he was just really early on it. And But he was just really early on it. And so much of that came from that nerd so much of that came from that nerd so much of that came from that nerd perspective. perspective. perspective. >> Most we we've had a lot of really >> Most we we've had a lot of really >> Most we we've had a lot of really amazing people on here and like the like amazing people on here and like the like amazing people on here and like the like ballers like Darm from HubSpot, they ballers like Darm from HubSpot, they ballers like Darm from HubSpot, they will reference Toby as like he's the guy will reference Toby as like he's the guy will reference Toby as like he's the guy uh of doing that of like being able to uh of doing that of like being able to uh of doing that of like being able to see a little bit into the future and see a little bit into the future and see a little bit into the future and behaving in such a way that is uh he's behaving in such a way that is uh he's behaving in such a way that is uh he's just right a lot. just right a lot. just right a lot. >> Totally. And I mean some of it is >> Totally. And I mean some of it is >> Totally. And I mean some of it is because he's really smart. Some of it is because he's really smart. Some of it is because he's really smart. Some of it is because he's got that nerdy because he's got that nerdy because he's got that nerdy conviction. I think similar to what I conviction. I think similar to what I conviction. I think similar to what I have I I'd like to believe that we're have I I'd like to believe that we're have I I'd like to believe that we're similar in many ways and that's why we similar in many ways and that's why we similar in many ways and that's why we get on so well known each other for 20 get on so well known each other for 20 get on so well known each other for 20 plus years is that a little bit of plus years is that a little bit of plus years is that a little bit of isolation maybe because of that nerd isolation maybe because of that nerd isolation maybe because of that nerd upbringing that you have the whole world upbringing that you have the whole world upbringing that you have the whole world telling you X and you actually go like telling you X and you actually go like telling you X and you actually go like let me just check under the cover oh do let me just check under the cover oh do let me just check under the cover oh do you know what it says why I'm going to you know what it says why I'm going to you know what it says why I'm going to bet on why even if the whole world is in bet on why even if the whole world is in bet on why even if the whole world is in on X and to see that continuity as you on X and to see that continuity as you on X and to see that continuity as you say is incredibly rare and I think part say is incredibly rare and I think part say is incredibly rare and I think part of that is the answer to why now with of that is the answer to why now with of that is the answer to why now with Shopify. Yeah, you know what? Shopify. Yeah, you know what? Shopify. Yeah, you know what? Compounding determinism over 20ome plus Compounding determinism over 20ome plus Compounding determinism over 20ome plus years years years has a tendency to add up and it adds up has a tendency to add up and it adds up has a tendency to add up and it adds up in irregular in irregular in irregular ways where it sometimes takes quite a ways where it sometimes takes quite a ways where it sometimes takes quite a long time before the inflection point long time before the inflection point long time before the inflection point comes. Now, I mean, we say this, but comes. Now, I mean, we say this, but comes. Now, I mean, we say this, but Shopify went public, I mean, over a Shopify went public, I mean, over a Shopify went public, I mean, over a decade ago at a $1 billion valuation. I decade ago at a $1 billion valuation. I decade ago at a $1 billion valuation. I mean, that's a hall of fame early mean, that's a hall of fame early mean, that's a hall of fame early investment you could have made because investment you could have made because investment you could have made because Shopify didn't do as so many other Shopify didn't do as so many other Shopify didn't do as so many other companies do now, which is essentially companies do now, which is essentially companies do now, which is essentially reserve all the upside to insiders and reserve all the upside to insiders and reserve all the upside to insiders and their VCs and then go public when it's their VCs and then go public when it's their VCs and then go public when it's already kind of plateaued, right? Like already kind of plateaued, right? Like already kind of plateaued, right? Like from where they were to where they are from where they were to where they are from where they were to where they are now. an amazing ride for the public now. an amazing ride for the public now. an amazing ride for the public investor if they were alone for it. But investor if they were alone for it. But investor if they were alone for it. But yeah, I mean, tremendous respect. It's yeah, I mean, tremendous respect. It's yeah, I mean, tremendous respect. It's funny because I mean, I just joined the funny because I mean, I just joined the funny because I mean, I just joined the board uh a year and a half ago and it board uh a year and a half ago and it board uh a year and a half ago and it came out of a conversation actually came out of a conversation actually came out of a conversation actually where I was making the argument to Toby where I was making the argument to Toby where I was making the argument to Toby that boards are [ __ ] and that all that boards are [ __ ] and that all that boards are [ __ ] and that all the boards I've ever been on were boring the boards I've ever been on were boring the boards I've ever been on were boring snoozefests snoozefests snoozefests dealing with minutia to rubber stamp dealing with minutia to rubber stamp dealing with minutia to rubber stamp things for auditors and whatnot. and he things for auditors and whatnot. and he things for auditors and whatnot. and he was like, "Uh, I don't know. I think we was like, "Uh, I don't know. I think we was like, "Uh, I don't know. I think we have a pretty good board." And I was have a pretty good board." And I was have a pretty good board." And I was like, "Uh, like, "Uh, like, "Uh, okay." And we started talking and then okay." And we started talking and then okay." And we started talking and then we had talked for a few hours or five. we had talked for a few hours or five. we had talked for a few hours or five. And then suddenly And then suddenly And then suddenly I did come to the realization, you know I did come to the realization, you know I did come to the realization, you know what? Yeah, I probably just been bored what? Yeah, I probably just been bored what? Yeah, I probably just been bored because I've been dealing with things at because I've been dealing with things at because I've been dealing with things at a scale too similar to my own and I'm a scale too similar to my own and I'm a scale too similar to my own and I'm not learning anything. Shopify is not learning anything. Shopify is not learning anything. Shopify is dealing at a universe apart in terms of dealing at a universe apart in terms of dealing at a universe apart in terms of scale while still using some of the same scale while still using some of the same scale while still using some of the same things that I'm passionate about. things that I'm passionate about. things that I'm passionate about. Shopify is the biggest Ruby and Rails Shopify is the biggest Ruby and Rails Shopify is the biggest Ruby and Rails shop in the world. Obviously, I'm very shop in the world. Obviously, I'm very shop in the world. Obviously, I'm very passionate about that. Um, many of the passionate about that. Um, many of the passionate about that. Um, many of the other aspect of it has great overlap, other aspect of it has great overlap, other aspect of it has great overlap, but I don't know that scale. Like, that but I don't know that scale. Like, that but I don't know that scale. Like, that sounds like a fun challenge. Let's just sounds like a fun challenge. Let's just sounds like a fun challenge. Let's just do it. And of course, Toby was right. do it. And of course, Toby was right. do it. And of course, Toby was right. Like, is there [ __ ] on a board of Like, is there [ __ ] on a board of Like, is there [ __ ] on a board of that scale? Of course there is. But it's that scale? Of course there is. But it's that scale? Of course there is. But it's actually a small minority. And most of actually a small minority. And most of actually a small minority. And most of it is just really interesting stuff it is just really interesting stuff it is just really interesting stuff dealing with problems I would never see dealing with problems I would never see dealing with problems I would never see dayto-day in my own business. dayto-day in my own business. dayto-day in my own business. You mentioned uh with AI, you're like You mentioned uh with AI, you're like You mentioned uh with AI, you're like Toby kind of dragged me into it a little Toby kind of dragged me into it a little Toby kind of dragged me into it a little bit. What's been your uh evolution with bit. What's been your uh evolution with bit. What's been your uh evolution with AI? So, you know, a couple years ago, AI? So, you know, a couple years ago, AI? So, you know, a couple years ago, what was your opinion? What were you what was your opinion? What were you what was your opinion? What were you playing with? And then now, what do you playing with? And then now, what do you playing with? And then now, what do you see? see? see? >> I thought it was amazing since day one >> I thought it was amazing since day one >> I thought it was amazing since day one and been a chat GBT user since the first and been a chat GBT user since the first and been a chat GBT user since the first days of that interface and just love days of that interface and just love days of that interface and just love that we were able to make computers do that we were able to make computers do that we were able to make computers do this right from the get-go. I really this right from the get-go. I really this right from the get-go. I really like computers. I just like them for like computers. I just like them for like computers. I just like them for their own sake. Not even always for their own sake. Not even always for their own sake. Not even always for productive purposes. I just like productive purposes. I just like productive purposes. I just like computers. Some of my favorite time is computers. Some of my favorite time is computers. Some of my favorite time is just sitting in front of the computer just sitting in front of the computer just sitting in front of the computer doing computer stuff, learning computer doing computer stuff, learning computer doing computer stuff, learning computer things, even if it's not directional things, even if it's not directional things, even if it's not directional towards a specific goal. And this even towards a specific goal. And this even towards a specific goal. And this even from the get-go, even when Chad GBT was from the get-go, even when Chad GBT was from the get-go, even when Chad GBT was dumb as rocks and couldn't count the Rs dumb as rocks and couldn't count the Rs dumb as rocks and couldn't count the Rs and strawberries and strawberries and strawberries was just fascinating. I'm like, I still was just fascinating. I'm like, I still was just fascinating. I'm like, I still don't get it. I mean, now I look into a don't get it. I mean, now I look into a don't get it. I mean, now I look into a lot of it and how Transformers works and lot of it and how Transformers works and lot of it and how Transformers works and whatever back forth and temperature and whatever back forth and temperature and whatever back forth and temperature and all of it. I'm like, I still don't fully all of it. I'm like, I still don't fully all of it. I'm like, I still don't fully get it. Like, how is it? Yes, I know get it. Like, how is it? Yes, I know get it. Like, how is it? Yes, I know next token, but how does it turn into next token, but how does it turn into next token, but how does it turn into this? How does it crossplay so well as this? How does it crossplay so well as this? How does it crossplay so well as an intelligent being? Maybe the reason an intelligent being? Maybe the reason an intelligent being? Maybe the reason I'm surprised is because I have the I'm surprised is because I have the I'm surprised is because I have the wrong model of human consciousness. wrong model of human consciousness. wrong model of human consciousness. Maybe human consciousness is far closer Maybe human consciousness is far closer Maybe human consciousness is far closer to token prediction than any of us would to token prediction than any of us would to token prediction than any of us would have cared to admit or even investigate have cared to admit or even investigate have cared to admit or even investigate seriously before. And the models as we seriously before. And the models as we seriously before. And the models as we have them as they came to be were quite have them as they came to be were quite have them as they came to be were quite close to that. And we have discovered close to that. And we have discovered close to that. And we have discovered intelligence in some sense. But the intelligence in some sense. But the intelligence in some sense. But the timeline is still that from the get-go, timeline is still that from the get-go, timeline is still that from the get-go, awesome, love it. It's not changing my awesome, love it. It's not changing my awesome, love it. It's not changing my day job. And the reason I say that is day job. And the reason I say that is day job. And the reason I say that is I'm very particular about how code looks I'm very particular about how code looks I'm very particular about how code looks and what it feels like. And and what it feels like. And and what it feels like. And um I was about to say correctness. um I was about to say correctness. um I was about to say correctness. That's not even like at the top part of That's not even like at the top part of That's not even like at the top part of it. I'm like I'll get to correctness it. I'm like I'll get to correctness it. I'm like I'll get to correctness when I love the aesthetics. when I love the aesthetics. when I love the aesthetics. And on aesthetics alone, And on aesthetics alone, And on aesthetics alone, the models were just not that good for a the models were just not that good for a the models were just not that good for a really long time. That's one part of it. really long time. That's one part of it. really long time. That's one part of it. The other part of it was the early a not The other part of it was the early a not The other part of it was the early a not even agents because they weren't agents. even agents because they weren't agents. even agents because they weren't agents. They weren't doing tools. The early They weren't doing tools. The early They weren't doing tools. The early LLMs, the early AI was autocomplete, LLMs, the early AI was autocomplete, LLMs, the early AI was autocomplete, right? You're in your editor and then it right? You're in your editor and then it right? You're in your editor and then it tries to complete the rest of it. And I tries to complete the rest of it. And I tries to complete the rest of it. And I hated that. It was like having someone hated that. It was like having someone hated that. It was like having someone interrupt my train of thought every 5 interrupt my train of thought every 5 interrupt my train of thought every 5 seconds to usually be wrong. And I say seconds to usually be wrong. And I say seconds to usually be wrong. And I say wrong, not in a factually correct way of wrong, not in a factually correct way of wrong, not in a factually correct way of does this program execute, but wrong in does this program execute, but wrong in does this program execute, but wrong in the sense of like this is not the code I the sense of like this is not the code I the sense of like this is not the code I want to write and I don't like what want to write and I don't like what want to write and I don't like what you're producing. So I didn't like that you're producing. So I didn't like that you're producing. So I didn't like that form of using AI and therefore didn't form of using AI and therefore didn't form of using AI and therefore didn't really use it that much for quite a long really use it that much for quite a long really use it that much for quite a long time. I used it as a pair programmer, as time. I used it as a pair programmer, as time. I used it as a pair programmer, as a better Google, as a better Stack a better Google, as a better Stack a better Google, as a better Stack Overflow, as a here I have a problem. Overflow, as a here I have a problem. Overflow, as a here I have a problem. Can you have a look at it? Oh, you Can you have a look at it? Oh, you Can you have a look at it? Oh, you taught me what the solution was. Let me taught me what the solution was. Let me taught me what the solution was. Let me go off and write it. And this takes us go off and write it. And this takes us go off and write it. And this takes us all the way up to the interview I did all the way up to the interview I did all the way up to the interview I did with Lex Freedman in the summer of last with Lex Freedman in the summer of last with Lex Freedman in the summer of last year where I was essentially giving this year where I was essentially giving this year where I was essentially giving this spiel, right? like, hey, I don't like spiel, right? like, hey, I don't like spiel, right? like, hey, I don't like what it produces. I'm extremely what it produces. I'm extremely what it produces. I'm extremely impressed. You'd be a fool not to take impressed. You'd be a fool not to take impressed. You'd be a fool not to take this super seriously and as a this super seriously and as a this super seriously and as a directional path for where we're going, directional path for where we're going, directional path for where we're going, but it's not yet. It's not in my but it's not yet. It's not in my but it's not yet. It's not in my business yet. And then I even I think business yet. And then I even I think business yet. And then I even I think early December, I did another interview. early December, I did another interview. early December, I did another interview. I had some revisions on it. And then I had some revisions on it. And then I had some revisions on it. And then from there it was like those realms from there it was like those realms from there it was like those realms could have been a decade apart because could have been a decade apart because could have been a decade apart because the models that dropped in late the models that dropped in late the models that dropped in late November, I think Opus 45 was November November, I think Opus 45 was November November, I think Opus 45 was November 27 or something. That class of 27 or something. That class of 27 or something. That class of intelligence suddenly switched from I intelligence suddenly switched from I intelligence suddenly switched from I don't like what it's making to holy [ __ ] don't like what it's making to holy [ __ ] don't like what it's making to holy [ __ ] what what what how okay I'm going to merge. So the last how okay I'm going to merge. So the last how okay I'm going to merge. So the last 3 months I'd say has been the most 3 months I'd say has been the most 3 months I'd say has been the most churn in my mental churn in my mental churn in my mental approach to computers in the entire time approach to computers in the entire time approach to computers in the entire time I've been using them. More deep I've been using them. More deep I've been using them. More deep questions and more workflow changes have questions and more workflow changes have questions and more workflow changes have entered my personal life, my day-to-day entered my personal life, my day-to-day entered my personal life, my day-to-day life, my eight hours in front of that life, my eight hours in front of that life, my eight hours in front of that little screen than in any time before little screen than in any time before little screen than in any time before that. And now I'm probably and that. And now I'm probably and that. And now I'm probably and thoroughly pilled. thoroughly pilled. thoroughly pilled. And I don't necessarily say that with And I don't necessarily say that with And I don't necessarily say that with like because that also means like I'm like because that also means like I'm like because that also means like I'm actually now in the herd, right? Like actually now in the herd, right? Like actually now in the herd, right? Like the herd certainly out of Silicon Valley the herd certainly out of Silicon Valley the herd certainly out of Silicon Valley is like AGI is imminent and even between is like AGI is imminent and even between is like AGI is imminent and even between now and AGI, we're going to go through now and AGI, we're going to go through now and AGI, we're going to go through such an intelligence explosion that hold such an intelligence explosion that hold such an intelligence explosion that hold on to your socks, right? Yeah. I'm on to your socks, right? Yeah. I'm on to your socks, right? Yeah. I'm actually now in the in the consensus on actually now in the in the consensus on actually now in the in the consensus on that, which I'm always a little that, which I'm always a little that, which I'm always a little skeptical about. I always want to try to skeptical about. I always want to try to skeptical about. I always want to try to look for the other angle, but it's just look for the other angle, but it's just look for the other angle, but it's just undeniable. At some point, you just got undeniable. At some point, you just got undeniable. At some point, you just got to admit that the math maths and that to admit that the math maths and that to admit that the math maths and that the agents are incredibly capable the agents are incredibly capable the agents are incredibly capable programmers. programmers. programmers. I thought when I talked to Lex last I thought when I talked to Lex last I thought when I talked to Lex last summer that it was going to turn summer that it was going to turn summer that it was going to turn everyone into a project manager of the everyone into a project manager of the everyone into a project manager of the old type. the kind of project manager old type. the kind of project manager old type. the kind of project manager who's not really doing the things, just who's not really doing the things, just who's not really doing the things, just telling other people what to do and then telling other people what to do and then telling other people what to do and then you got this little churn and then you you got this little churn and then you you got this little churn and then you get the feedback. And I realized that's get the feedback. And I realized that's get the feedback. And I realized that's not true at all. It is more like I've not true at all. It is more like I've not true at all. It is more like I've grown 18 arms and seven more brains and grown 18 arms and seven more brains and grown 18 arms and seven more brains and I'm operating 22 screens and I'm still I'm operating 22 screens and I'm still I'm operating 22 screens and I'm still doing all of it even if I'm not typing doing all of it even if I'm not typing doing all of it even if I'm not typing every character myself. and my progress every character myself. and my progress every character myself. and my progress when the stars are just right is just when the stars are just right is just when the stars are just right is just unbelievable and incredibly addictive. unbelievable and incredibly addictive. unbelievable and incredibly addictive. And that's And that's And that's in some sense a little bit like that in some sense a little bit like that in some sense a little bit like that Facebook thing like you know what I was Facebook thing like you know what I was Facebook thing like you know what I was wrong about how quickly this was going wrong about how quickly this was going wrong about how quickly this was going to radically change everything. Like I to radically change everything. Like I to radically change everything. Like I thought it was going to happen. Um I thought it was going to happen. Um I thought it was going to happen. Um I thought like we got to have a few years, thought like we got to have a few years, thought like we got to have a few years, right? And then suddenly from December right? And then suddenly from December right? And then suddenly from December onward, we live in a completely onward, we live in a completely onward, we live in a completely different world. different world. different world. >> I have to thank you for that Lex Freeman >> I have to thank you for that Lex Freeman >> I have to thank you for that Lex Freeman podcast. A great podcast, six hours podcast. A great podcast, six hours podcast. A great podcast, six hours long. B, I bought three ads with Lex long. B, I bought three ads with Lex long. B, I bought three ads with Lex Friedman. The first for my company, Friedman. The first for my company, Friedman. The first for my company, Hampton. The first ad went on like he Hampton. The first ad went on like he Hampton. The first ad went on like he doesn't tell you what it's going to go doesn't tell you what it's going to go doesn't tell you what it's going to go on. The first ad went on like Iran war on. The first ad went on like Iran war on. The first ad went on like Iran war thing and I was like, thing and I was like, thing and I was like, >> that was not my target audience. >> that was not my target audience. >> that was not my target audience. >> That's not going to work. The second one >> That's not going to work. The second one >> That's not going to work. The second one was like a Jeffrey Epstein video or I was like a Jeffrey Epstein video or I was like a Jeffrey Epstein video or I don't it was like subcontra and then the don't it was like subcontra and then the don't it was like subcontra and then the third one was you and I was like yes got third one was you and I was like yes got third one was you and I was like yes got it. And so your your episode actually it. And so your your episode actually it. And so your your episode actually made our ad profitable. So thank you for made our ad profitable. So thank you for made our ad profitable. So thank you for that. Um there we go. Uh are you um you that. Um there we go. Uh are you um you that. Um there we go. Uh are you um you know so I read your work. I've read your know so I read your work. I've read your know so I read your work. I've read your books. I think it's great. I copy a lot books. I think it's great. I copy a lot books. I think it's great. I copy a lot of your stuff. I'm inspired by your of your stuff. I'm inspired by your of your stuff. I'm inspired by your stuff because I want to build a company stuff because I want to build a company stuff because I want to build a company like you. What about what you guys have like you. What about what you guys have like you. What about what you guys have built today do you think is foolish or built today do you think is foolish or built today do you think is foolish or what have you built over the last 20 what have you built over the last 20 what have you built over the last 20 years that a lot of people admire a lot years that a lot of people admire a lot years that a lot of people admire a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners of entrepreneurs and business owners of entrepreneurs and business owners admire that you think is silly to admire that you think is silly to admire that you think is silly to replicate today and and you would like replicate today and and you would like replicate today and and you would like advise someone who has like a two or $3 advise someone who has like a two or $3 advise someone who has like a two or $3 million company if you want to be a million company if you want to be a million company if you want to be a bootstrapped five $50 million whatever bootstrapped five $50 million whatever bootstrapped five $50 million whatever you guys are company a year and be as you guys are company a year and be as you guys are company a year and be as profitable as we are and have this life profitable as we are and have this life profitable as we are and have this life don't actually copy what you see now don't actually copy what you see now don't actually copy what you see now because that won't work today I don't because that won't work today I don't because that won't work today I don't have a straight answer to that and have a straight answer to that and have a straight answer to that and partly it is because I can see some of partly it is because I can see some of partly it is because I can see some of the things we've historically been doing the things we've historically been doing the things we've historically been doing work less well than they had. And some work less well than they had. And some work less well than they had. And some of it is exactly this that of it is exactly this that of it is exactly this that being able to generate being able to generate being able to generate attention attention attention is not as transferable as to business is not as transferable as to business is not as transferable as to business outcomes as it used to be. And there's a outcomes as it used to be. And there's a outcomes as it used to be. And there's a great um Gary Vee has this book uh jab great um Gary Vee has this book uh jab great um Gary Vee has this book uh jab jab right hook. Love the book. Love the jab right hook. Love the book. Love the jab right hook. Love the book. Love the concept in basises is give, give, give, concept in basises is give, give, give, concept in basises is give, give, give, jab, jab, jab 100 times. Just give, be jab, jab, jab 100 times. Just give, be jab, jab, jab 100 times. Just give, be kind, go out there, share all this kind, go out there, share all this kind, go out there, share all this stuff. And then occasionally you give it stuff. And then occasionally you give it stuff. And then occasionally you give it a right hook. You call to action, buy my a right hook. You call to action, buy my a right hook. You call to action, buy my stuff. Right? And that's what pays the stuff. Right? And that's what pays the stuff. Right? And that's what pays the 100 jabs is that occasionally there's a 100 jabs is that occasionally there's a 100 jabs is that occasionally there's a right hook that lands. What I've seen, right hook that lands. What I've seen, right hook that lands. What I've seen, and some of it is just a reflection of and some of it is just a reflection of and some of it is just a reflection of the dynamics of social media, is that the dynamics of social media, is that the dynamics of social media, is that the right hook doesn't travel anymore the right hook doesn't travel anymore the right hook doesn't travel anymore because all the main uh media outlets uh because all the main uh media outlets uh because all the main uh media outlets uh or social media outlets, X in or social media outlets, X in or social media outlets, X in particular, where both Jason Strong, the particular, where both Jason Strong, the particular, where both Jason Strong, the algorithm is just never going to show algorithm is just never going to show algorithm is just never going to show your stuff. It used to be that having a your stuff. It used to be that having a your stuff. It used to be that having a ton of followers meant that a ton of ton of followers meant that a ton of ton of followers meant that a ton of people just saw your stuff. Now, the people just saw your stuff. Now, the people just saw your stuff. Now, the great irony here is that this is what great irony here is that this is what great irony here is that this is what people complained about on Facebook back people complained about on Facebook back people complained about on Facebook back in like 2012. I have all these in like 2012. I have all these in like 2012. I have all these followers, but I can't reach him unless followers, but I can't reach him unless followers, but I can't reach him unless I buy ads. I buy ads. I buy ads. >> Yeah, that's the demise of Buzzfeed and >> Yeah, that's the demise of Buzzfeed and >> Yeah, that's the demise of Buzzfeed and all these huge companies, which is the all these huge companies, which is the all these huge companies, which is the deep thing. deep thing. deep thing. >> That's not actually quite what's >> That's not actually quite what's >> That's not actually quite what's happening now because from what I can happening now because from what I can happening now because from what I can tell, ads on X still don't really work. tell, ads on X still don't really work. tell, ads on X still don't really work. We tried them a bit, maybe they work We tried them a bit, maybe they work We tried them a bit, maybe they work better now, never worked for us. What better now, never worked for us. What better now, never worked for us. What works is viral, right? Like what works works is viral, right? Like what works works is viral, right? Like what works is sharing really interesting stuff. I is sharing really interesting stuff. I is sharing really interesting stuff. I don't mean viral actually in a negative don't mean viral actually in a negative don't mean viral actually in a negative connotation. It also has that. But it connotation. It also has that. But it connotation. It also has that. But it also is something positive. You sharing also is something positive. You sharing also is something positive. You sharing something novel with people who are something novel with people who are something novel with people who are interested and they engage with it. But interested and they engage with it. But interested and they engage with it. But the trickle down has kind of stopped. So the trickle down has kind of stopped. So the trickle down has kind of stopped. So that trickle down of like I share a lot that trickle down of like I share a lot that trickle down of like I share a lot of interesting stuff on a daily basis of interesting stuff on a daily basis of interesting stuff on a daily basis and then occasionally and then occasionally and then occasionally I'll ask you to check out my new product I'll ask you to check out my new product I'll ask you to check out my new product or something else. Then the check out my or something else. Then the check out my or something else. Then the check out my new product like that stopped working. new product like that stopped working. new product like that stopped working. So, I'm not sure our historic long run So, I'm not sure our historic long run So, I'm not sure our historic long run strategy of build a large audience and strategy of build a large audience and strategy of build a large audience and then good things will h happen is then good things will h happen is then good things will h happen is necessarily true anymore. I think necessarily true anymore. I think necessarily true anymore. I think there's still something to it, but is it there's still something to it, but is it there's still something to it, but is it viable as your sole strategy being viable as your sole strategy being viable as your sole strategy being someone new? I don't think it converts someone new? I don't think it converts someone new? I don't think it converts or works as well as it once did. So, or works as well as it once did. So, or works as well as it once did. So, that's a thing that doesn't work. Now, I that's a thing that doesn't work. Now, I that's a thing that doesn't work. Now, I still wouldn't say that. I still think still wouldn't say that. I still think still wouldn't say that. I still think just for your own edification, you just for your own edification, you just for your own edification, you should try to share interest things should try to share interest things should try to share interest things interesting things. That's actually how interesting things. That's actually how interesting things. That's actually how you learn more. When you try to teach you learn more. When you try to teach you learn more. When you try to teach what you've internalized, you make it what you've internalized, you make it what you've internalized, you make it sink in deeper. And I also think it's sink in deeper. And I also think it's sink in deeper. And I also think it's just good to share for the sake of it just good to share for the sake of it just good to share for the sake of it regardless of the outcomes. But I can regardless of the outcomes. But I can regardless of the outcomes. But I can also see what happens to people who also see what happens to people who also see what happens to people who share share share and never see share share share and never see share share share and never see something back. something back. something back. >> The odds of that person ending up bitter >> The odds of that person ending up bitter >> The odds of that person ending up bitter is pretty high. One of the things that is pretty high. One of the things that is pretty high. One of the things that both me and Sam love is uh anybody who both me and Sam love is uh anybody who both me and Sam love is uh anybody who sort of plays their own game by their sort of plays their own game by their sort of plays their own game by their own rules. And I think whenever we had own rules. And I think whenever we had own rules. And I think whenever we had Jason on or you on, like that's one of Jason on or you on, like that's one of Jason on or you on, like that's one of the things that we like and respect the the things that we like and respect the the things that we like and respect the most. In fact, I almost joined 37 most. In fact, I almost joined 37 most. In fact, I almost joined 37 Signals when I was very young. I was Signals when I was very young. I was Signals when I was very young. I was applying to two jobs. One was in San applying to two jobs. One was in San applying to two jobs. One was in San Francisco and like the tech world and Francisco and like the tech world and Francisco and like the tech world and the other one was going to be with 37 the other one was going to be with 37 the other one was going to be with 37 Signals. I went Signals. I went Signals. I went >> I went to San Francisco instead. >> I went to San Francisco instead. >> I went to San Francisco instead. >> Wait, did you get the interview, Sean? >> Wait, did you get the interview, Sean? >> Wait, did you get the interview, Sean? >> Um I did get the interview but I got the >> Um I did get the interview but I got the >> Um I did get the interview but I got the other job first and so I never even took other job first and so I never even took other job first and so I never even took I never even uh went forward with it. I never even uh went forward with it. I never even uh went forward with it. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. >> But it was a company I was studying and >> But it was a company I was studying and >> But it was a company I was studying and it was like if I'm going to join one it was like if I'm going to join one it was like if I'm going to join one company, I like these guys. I like how company, I like these guys. I like how company, I like these guys. I like how they roll. I like that they have their they roll. I like that they have their they roll. I like that they have their own like their drum beat, right? And so own like their drum beat, right? And so own like their drum beat, right? And so you guys have for a long time just done you guys have for a long time just done you guys have for a long time just done things your way. I think both, you know, things your way. I think both, you know, things your way. I think both, you know, for you, I think you're kind of like an for you, I think you're kind of like an for you, I think you're kind of like an engineering hero for a lot. Me and Sam engineering hero for a lot. Me and Sam engineering hero for a lot. Me and Sam are not developers, but like I think a are not developers, but like I think a are not developers, but like I think a lot of developers respect you because lot of developers respect you because lot of developers respect you because you you have a a strong opinion and a you you have a a strong opinion and a you you have a a strong opinion and a way you roll technically. I think way you roll technically. I think way you roll technically. I think there's the 37 signals part of things. there's the 37 signals part of things. there's the 37 signals part of things. And then there's the outside of it, And then there's the outside of it, And then there's the outside of it, right? Like doing the races and just right? Like doing the races and just right? Like doing the races and just living life a certain way. We talked to living life a certain way. We talked to living life a certain way. We talked to Jason about his houses and how he's like Jason about his houses and how he's like Jason about his houses and how he's like a craftsman and he's got taste and a craftsman and he's got taste and a craftsman and he's got taste and things like that. I'm curious who kind things like that. I'm curious who kind things like that. I'm curious who kind of inspired you. So, who are people that of inspired you. So, who are people that of inspired you. So, who are people that you kind of liked something in their you kind of liked something in their you kind of liked something in their blueprint? Either how they ran their blueprint? Either how they ran their blueprint? Either how they ran their company or how they had, you know, this company or how they had, you know, this company or how they had, you know, this these side quests outside of their their these side quests outside of their their these side quests outside of their their work that that was cool that, you know, work that that was cool that, you know, work that that was cool that, you know, maybe made you want to do the races and maybe made you want to do the races and maybe made you want to do the races and and and you know, dedicated that sense. and and you know, dedicated that sense. and and you know, dedicated that sense. Is there anybody that you've looked up Is there anybody that you've looked up Is there anybody that you've looked up to that you you've stolen a little bit to that you you've stolen a little bit to that you you've stolen a little bit from their blueprints? from their blueprints? from their blueprints? >> Completely. I mean, in fact, my entire >> Completely. I mean, in fact, my entire >> Completely. I mean, in fact, my entire early career was just finding people who early career was just finding people who early career was just finding people who I really liked and looked up to and I really liked and looked up to and I really liked and looked up to and said, I'm just going to copy the said, I'm just going to copy the said, I'm just going to copy the motions. Like, I don't even know if I motions. Like, I don't even know if I motions. Like, I don't even know if I fully understand it, but if I move my fully understand it, but if I move my fully understand it, but if I move my hands in the same way and dance the same hands in the same way and dance the same hands in the same way and dance the same dance, maybe I'm going to get a little dance, maybe I'm going to get a little dance, maybe I'm going to get a little bit of that magic. bit of that magic. bit of that magic. >> One of the ones that I think maybe Jason >> One of the ones that I think maybe Jason >> One of the ones that I think maybe Jason has cited as well is Ricardo Semler, who has cited as well is Ricardo Semler, who has cited as well is Ricardo Semler, who wrote a book called Maverick. I think it wrote a book called Maverick. I think it wrote a book called Maverick. I think it was published in the '9s. was published in the '9s. was published in the '9s. >> Oh, is this the Brazilian guy? >> Oh, is this the Brazilian guy? >> Oh, is this the Brazilian guy? >> Yes. I I've seen that book title. Can >> Yes. I I've seen that book title. Can >> Yes. I I've seen that book title. Can you tell us about like I I know a couple you tell us about like I I know a couple you tell us about like I I know a couple people. people. people. >> Yeah. What's his story? >> Yeah. What's his story? >> Yeah. What's his story? >> Amazing book. Amazing story. So, Ricardo >> Amazing book. Amazing story. So, Ricardo >> Amazing book. Amazing story. So, Ricardo Semler I think inherits or takes over Semler I think inherits or takes over Semler I think inherits or takes over this huge industrial this huge industrial this huge industrial Brazilian company that makes pumps for I Brazilian company that makes pumps for I Brazilian company that makes pumps for I think oil tankers or something like the think oil tankers or something like the think oil tankers or something like the last company you would imagine being last company you would imagine being last company you would imagine being innovative on work practices and so innovative on work practices and so innovative on work practices and so forth. and he just approaches that forth. and he just approaches that forth. and he just approaches that company with an irreverence to how company with an irreverence to how company with an irreverence to how things are done that would make both things are done that would make both things are done that would make both Jason and I blush. And we try to be Jason and I blush. And we try to be Jason and I blush. And we try to be relatively radical I think in what we relatively radical I think in what we relatively radical I think in what we try to prescribe. But he really gave us try to prescribe. But he really gave us try to prescribe. But he really gave us certainly gave me permission to think certainly gave me permission to think certainly gave me permission to think very different ways about how to do very different ways about how to do very different ways about how to do things. He has a one of the examples I things. He has a one of the examples I things. He has a one of the examples I remember is like how to look at remember is like how to look at remember is like how to look at employees and the value that they bring employees and the value that they bring employees and the value that they bring over a much longer period of time. And over a much longer period of time. And over a much longer period of time. And he gives the example of this one guy he he gives the example of this one guy he he gives the example of this one guy he has that on almost every week sits at has that on almost every week sits at has that on almost every week sits at his desk with a newspaper open and does his desk with a newspaper open and does his desk with a newspaper open and does nothing. He's just there. And you're nothing. He's just there. And you're nothing. He's just there. And you're like, why would you pay a guy to sit at like, why would you pay a guy to sit at like, why would you pay a guy to sit at his desk and read a newspaper? Well, it his desk and read a newspaper? Well, it his desk and read a newspaper? Well, it just so happens to be that occasionally just so happens to be that occasionally just so happens to be that occasionally some of these pumps fail in really some of these pumps fail in really some of these pumps fail in really spectacular ways in far-flung places. spectacular ways in far-flung places. spectacular ways in far-flung places. and he's the guy having that capacity to and he's the guy having that capacity to and he's the guy having that capacity to get some oil tanker out of some get some oil tanker out of some get some oil tanker out of some predicament immediately. predicament immediately. predicament immediately. One of those will pay for his salary One of those will pay for his salary One of those will pay for his salary seven times over. Now, I love that seven times over. Now, I love that seven times over. Now, I love that anecdote because it's one I've struggled anecdote because it's one I've struggled anecdote because it's one I've struggled to implement at 37 signals, which is the to implement at 37 signals, which is the to implement at 37 signals, which is the best kind, right? I've been practicing best kind, right? I've been practicing best kind, right? I've been practicing this for literally two decades of this for literally two decades of this for literally two decades of divorcing this sense of I don't know divorcing this sense of I don't know divorcing this sense of I don't know Protestant work ethic of like why are Protestant work ethic of like why are Protestant work ethic of like why are you not moving your hands 40 hours a you not moving your hands 40 hours a you not moving your hands 40 hours a week with that's not the value this week with that's not the value this week with that's not the value this individual brings to the corporation. So individual brings to the corporation. So individual brings to the corporation. So I love that he has a million suggestions I love that he has a million suggestions I love that he has a million suggestions on how to run a company. We took a fair on how to run a company. We took a fair on how to run a company. We took a fair bit of inspiration for both getting real bit of inspiration for both getting real bit of inspiration for both getting real and for rework. Not quite the form. He and for rework. Not quite the form. He and for rework. Not quite the form. He tells more of a story, a narrative, tells more of a story, a narrative, tells more of a story, a narrative, which is great. Huge fan of him. Another which is great. Huge fan of him. Another which is great. Huge fan of him. Another one is um Kent Beck. So Kent Beck is the one is um Kent Beck. So Kent Beck is the one is um Kent Beck. So Kent Beck is the author of Extreme Programming, one of author of Extreme Programming, one of author of Extreme Programming, one of the heretical software methodologies the heretical software methodologies the heretical software methodologies back in the '9s when everyone was stuck back in the '9s when everyone was stuck back in the '9s when everyone was stuck on rational or the waterfall method, big on rational or the waterfall method, big on rational or the waterfall method, big upfront designs, like large manuals upfront designs, like large manuals upfront designs, like large manuals before you write a piece of code. Kent before you write a piece of code. Kent before you write a piece of code. Kent Beck was one of the absolute pioneers on Beck was one of the absolute pioneers on Beck was one of the absolute pioneers on a completely different way of working, a completely different way of working, a completely different way of working, the agile way of working. Now that word the agile way of working. Now that word the agile way of working. Now that word has stopped meaning almost anything has stopped meaning almost anything has stopped meaning almost anything because today it just means software because today it just means software because today it just means software development. No one is going to tell you development. No one is going to tell you development. No one is going to tell you they're not agile except for the really they're not agile except for the really they're not agile except for the really edgy people who've now started to turn edgy people who've now started to turn edgy people who've now started to turn towards agile which is fun to watch. But towards agile which is fun to watch. But towards agile which is fun to watch. But the main agile got mainstream. It wasn't the main agile got mainstream. It wasn't the main agile got mainstream. It wasn't in 99 or early 2000s and I saw Kent Beck in 99 or early 2000s and I saw Kent Beck in 99 or early 2000s and I saw Kent Beck on stage in 2001 at a Danish conference on stage in 2001 at a Danish conference on stage in 2001 at a Danish conference have complete and other command of the have complete and other command of the have complete and other command of the room as he delivered his sermon on room as he delivered his sermon on room as he delivered his sermon on software methodology and I was just in software methodology and I was just in software methodology and I was just in awe. By the way, his LinkedIn his awe. By the way, his LinkedIn his awe. By the way, his LinkedIn his LinkedIn is hilarious. It says his bio LinkedIn is hilarious. It says his bio LinkedIn is hilarious. It says his bio says of the handful full of people who says of the handful full of people who says of the handful full of people who have shaped how we build software, Kent have shaped how we build software, Kent have shaped how we build software, Kent is the raised middle finger. is the raised middle finger. is the raised middle finger. >> And he's giving a uh it looks like it >> And he's giving a uh it looks like it >> And he's giving a uh it looks like it looks like he's giving a university looks like he's giving a university looks like he's giving a university graduation speech and he's wearing a graduation speech and he's wearing a graduation speech and he's wearing a tie-dyed Oxford button-down shirt. tie-dyed Oxford button-down shirt. tie-dyed Oxford button-down shirt. >> Amazing. I love Kent and everything he's >> Amazing. I love Kent and everything he's >> Amazing. I love Kent and everything he's contributed to software development both contributed to software development both contributed to software development both in terms of his methodology but also in in terms of his methodology but also in in terms of his methodology but also in terms of his craft. My favorite book on terms of his craft. My favorite book on terms of his craft. My favorite book on the nitty-gritties of programming is a the nitty-gritties of programming is a the nitty-gritties of programming is a small book he wrote in the '9s called small book he wrote in the '9s called small book he wrote in the '9s called small talk best practices. small talk best practices. small talk best practices. It's a quite short book and it is the It's a quite short book and it is the It's a quite short book and it is the most influential book on how I write most influential book on how I write most influential book on how I write software that I've ever read. Now, it's software that I've ever read. Now, it's software that I've ever read. Now, it's funny because I've mentioned this book funny because I've mentioned this book funny because I've mentioned this book many times over my career and at one many times over my career and at one many times over my career and at one point I think it was not available yet point I think it was not available yet point I think it was not available yet as an ebook. You could only find the as an ebook. You could only find the as an ebook. You could only find the print versions and managed to create so print versions and managed to create so print versions and managed to create so much demand that I think at one point it much demand that I think at one point it much demand that I think at one point it went for $4,500 for print edition. Now went for $4,500 for print edition. Now went for $4,500 for print edition. Now it is available online. You can just buy it is available online. You can just buy it is available online. You can just buy the PDF. It still totally holds up in the PDF. It still totally holds up in the PDF. It still totally holds up in this day and age from a language most this day and age from a language most this day and age from a language most people are not programming in small talk people are not programming in small talk people are not programming in small talk is incredible and Kent wrote not just is incredible and Kent wrote not just is incredible and Kent wrote not just that like a craftsman's book about that like a craftsman's book about that like a craftsman's book about craftsmanship but then also reshaped how craftsmanship but then also reshaped how craftsmanship but then also reshaped how all of software methodology is done and all of software methodology is done and all of software methodology is done and then finally I'd say uh Matts who then finally I'd say uh Matts who then finally I'd say uh Matts who created Ruby back in the '9s and opened created Ruby back in the '9s and opened created Ruby back in the '9s and opened my eyes to rearranging the prior 30 my eyes to rearranging the prior 30 my eyes to rearranging the prior 30 list. When I got into programming, list. When I got into programming, list. When I got into programming, most programming languages were sold on most programming languages were sold on most programming languages were sold on like I'm the fastest. I'm the most like I'm the fastest. I'm the most like I'm the fastest. I'm the most correct. I have the least memory usage. correct. I have the least memory usage. correct. I have the least memory usage. I'm the most like C. I'm the most safe. I'm the most like C. I'm the most safe. I'm the most like C. I'm the most safe. All those adjectives. And yeah, yeah, All those adjectives. And yeah, yeah, All those adjectives. And yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I I should pick the that makes sense. I I should pick the that makes sense. I I should pick the fastest, least amount of errors. And fastest, least amount of errors. And fastest, least amount of errors. And then Matt comes in and says like, no, then Matt comes in and says like, no, then Matt comes in and says like, no, no, Ruby is designed to make the no, Ruby is designed to make the no, Ruby is designed to make the programmer feel good. Like, what? Wait, programmer feel good. Like, what? Wait, programmer feel good. Like, what? Wait, what did you just say? It's about what did you just say? It's about what did you just say? It's about programmer happiness. What hippie dippy programmer happiness. What hippie dippy programmer happiness. What hippie dippy [ __ ] is this? How are we going to [ __ ] is this? How are we going to [ __ ] is this? How are we going to get create or correct programs that get create or correct programs that get create or correct programs that makes us lots of money if we're focused makes us lots of money if we're focused makes us lots of money if we're focused on programmer happiness? on programmer happiness? on programmer happiness? That was a real mindb blown explosion. That was a real mindb blown explosion. That was a real mindb blown explosion. And it was also the inflection point of And it was also the inflection point of And it was also the inflection point of my professional career as a programmer. my professional career as a programmer. my professional career as a programmer. I'd been using a bunch of other things I'd been using a bunch of other things I'd been using a bunch of other things before as tools looking at like what's before as tools looking at like what's before as tools looking at like what's the most efficient and how do I get the the most efficient and how do I get the the most efficient and how do I get the fastest and then suddenly I discover fastest and then suddenly I discover fastest and then suddenly I discover Ruby and realize that writing it can be Ruby and realize that writing it can be Ruby and realize that writing it can be this intensely satisfying experience this intensely satisfying experience this intensely satisfying experience just getting it beautiful. We talked a just getting it beautiful. We talked a just getting it beautiful. We talked a little bit about those aesthetics little bit about those aesthetics little bit about those aesthetics earlier and why I didn't like AI earlier and why I didn't like AI earlier and why I didn't like AI autocomp completion for so long was autocomp completion for so long was autocomp completion for so long was because it interfered with that because it interfered with that because it interfered with that massaging of the Ruby poem. massaging of the Ruby poem. massaging of the Ruby poem. And I've now spent well over 20 years And I've now spent well over 20 years And I've now spent well over 20 years just absolutely loving the Ruby just absolutely loving the Ruby just absolutely loving the Ruby programming language because some guy in programming language because some guy in programming language because some guy in Japan rearranged the priorities of what Japan rearranged the priorities of what Japan rearranged the priorities of what was permissible to care about as a was permissible to care about as a was permissible to care about as a software developer. software developer. software developer. We have this thing um David uh I'm now We have this thing um David uh I'm now We have this thing um David uh I'm now going to call it the MFM lean. Sean, do going to call it the MFM lean. Sean, do going to call it the MFM lean. Sean, do you want to show them that the MFM lean? you want to show them that the MFM lean? you want to show them that the MFM lean? you we you you had us both we whenever you we you you had us both we whenever you we you you had us both we whenever we sit like this and we're just like you we sit like this and we're just like you we sit like this and we're just like you have gotten us to fall down if you're have gotten us to fall down if you're have gotten us to fall down if you're listening on Spotify you got to go on listening on Spotify you got to go on listening on Spotify you got to go on YouTube and hear this part but if you YouTube and hear this part but if you YouTube and hear this part but if you you've gotten us to fall down your you've gotten us to fall down your you've gotten us to fall down your slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope you uh you made a comment about you uh you made a comment about you uh you made a comment about longevity uh which is pretty cool you longevity uh which is pretty cool you longevity uh which is pretty cool you you talked about um you know all these you talked about um you know all these you talked about um you know all these people tried all these tactics it didn't people tried all these tactics it didn't people tried all these tactics it didn't work but you know we didn't we weren't work but you know we didn't we weren't work but you know we didn't we weren't too trendy and and now we're sitting too trendy and and now we're sitting too trendy and and now we're sitting here and we we still have lasted and here and we we still have lasted and here and we we still have lasted and you've built this amazing company that you've built this amazing company that you've built this amazing company that has made I don't know how much hundreds has made I don't know how much hundreds has made I don't know how much hundreds millions billions in in cumulative millions billions in in cumulative millions billions in in cumulative revenue. Is there anything that you do revenue. Is there anything that you do revenue. Is there anything that you do on a day-to-day basis within your on a day-to-day basis within your on a day-to-day basis within your company where you are making decisions company where you are making decisions company where you are making decisions to last five or 10 years out uh or to last five or 10 years out uh or to last five or 10 years out uh or being, you know, like longevity being, you know, like longevity being, you know, like longevity decisions versus short-term decisions? decisions versus short-term decisions? decisions versus short-term decisions? Like do you actively think about that on Like do you actively think about that on Like do you actively think about that on a regular basis? Or maybe I could even a regular basis? Or maybe I could even a regular basis? Or maybe I could even ask you the other way around, whichever ask you the other way around, whichever ask you the other way around, whichever is easier. What decisions would you make is easier. What decisions would you make is easier. What decisions would you make differently if you were just trying to differently if you were just trying to differently if you were just trying to like, you know, get in and get out? like, you know, get in and get out? like, you know, get in and get out? >> Good question. I think on the longevity >> Good question. I think on the longevity >> Good question. I think on the longevity front, the number one objective both front, the number one objective both front, the number one objective both Jason and I is to ensure that 37 signals Jason and I is to ensure that 37 signals Jason and I is to ensure that 37 signals is still a place we want to work. Not is still a place we want to work. Not is still a place we want to work. Not just want to work, but like to work is just want to work, but like to work is just want to work, but like to work is our favorite place to work. I see and our favorite place to work. I see and our favorite place to work. I see and talk to a lot of entrepreneurs who are talk to a lot of entrepreneurs who are talk to a lot of entrepreneurs who are in a hurry because they managed to build in a hurry because they managed to build in a hurry because they managed to build a company they don't like and they would a company they don't like and they would a company they don't like and they would love to get out of it. And I find that love to get out of it. And I find that love to get out of it. And I find that tremendously sad. Not because they can't tremendously sad. Not because they can't tremendously sad. Not because they can't achieve other objectives in their life. achieve other objectives in their life. achieve other objectives in their life. Like maybe they have a tremendous exit Like maybe they have a tremendous exit Like maybe they have a tremendous exit and then they and then they and then they grit their teeth for the two to five grit their teeth for the two to five grit their teeth for the two to five year exit period when they're on hold up year exit period when they're on hold up year exit period when they're on hold up and earn out and then they go on living and earn out and then they go on living and earn out and then they go on living merry good lives. Great, lovely. I I'm merry good lives. Great, lovely. I I'm merry good lives. Great, lovely. I I'm glad for you. That's not what I want. glad for you. That's not what I want. glad for you. That's not what I want. I want to arrive at a station in life I want to arrive at a station in life I want to arrive at a station in life where I don't have to do things I don't where I don't have to do things I don't where I don't have to do things I don't want to do if they're not in service of want to do if they're not in service of want to do if they're not in service of a meaningful burden I have chosen to a meaningful burden I have chosen to a meaningful burden I have chosen to carry. And work is full of individuals carry. And work is full of individuals carry. And work is full of individuals even at the highest levels, the CEOs, even at the highest levels, the CEOs, even at the highest levels, the CEOs, the founders who are stuck in these the founders who are stuck in these the founders who are stuck in these loops that they actually kind of hate. loops that they actually kind of hate. loops that they actually kind of hate. And the only reason they're doing it is And the only reason they're doing it is And the only reason they're doing it is because of some because of some because of some begrudging obligation to investors or begrudging obligation to investors or begrudging obligation to investors or outcomes or whatever else have you. And outcomes or whatever else have you. And outcomes or whatever else have you. And Jason and I from the get-go just set the Jason and I from the get-go just set the Jason and I from the get-go just set the objectives like we're not going to fall objectives like we're not going to fall objectives like we're not going to fall into that. We're not going to be into that. We're not going to be into that. We're not going to be instrumental about how we built this instrumental about how we built this instrumental about how we built this business because we're seeking the business because we're seeking the business because we're seeking the after. We're committing to the now. And after. We're committing to the now. And after. We're committing to the now. And the now has lasted for 27 years and in the now has lasted for 27 years and in the now has lasted for 27 years and in my case for 25 years. I joined up in my case for 25 years. I joined up in my case for 25 years. I joined up in 2001. So that seemed to actually 2001. So that seemed to actually 2001. So that seemed to actually counterintuitively counterintuitively counterintuitively work for longevity. work for longevity. work for longevity. >> But do you still do you still go through >> But do you still do you still go through >> But do you still do you still go through quarters or months of angst where you're quarters or months of angst where you're quarters or months of angst where you're like, we're right in the middle of this. like, we're right in the middle of this. like, we're right in the middle of this. This is frustrating to me. I don't want This is frustrating to me. I don't want This is frustrating to me. I don't want to be doing this, but we have to do it. to be doing this, but we have to do it. to be doing this, but we have to do it. Or or does that not even exist in your Or or does that not even exist in your Or or does that not even exist in your world? world? world? >> No, it's never been there. I'm not >> No, it's never been there. I'm not >> No, it's never been there. I'm not saying I've never I've never been saying I've never I've never been saying I've never I've never been stressed. I certainly have stress stressed. I certainly have stress stressed. I certainly have stress points. Not that many. I mean, I can points. Not that many. I mean, I can points. Not that many. I mean, I can literally remember almost all of them. literally remember almost all of them. literally remember almost all of them. But it's not because I'm grinding But it's not because I'm grinding But it's not because I'm grinding towards some outcome. It's usually those towards some outcome. It's usually those towards some outcome. It's usually those moments of stress because external moments of stress because external moments of stress because external forces have conspired against us for a forces have conspired against us for a forces have conspired against us for a hot moment and we got to figure our way hot moment and we got to figure our way hot moment and we got to figure our way out. And that actually well that's out. And that actually well that's out. And that actually well that's surprising like even when you went to surprising like even when you went to surprising like even when you went to launch hey you're not like you know we launch hey you're not like you know we launch hey you're not like you know we have a we said we want to launch on this have a we said we want to launch on this have a we said we want to launch on this day we it let's get all of our ducks in day we it let's get all of our ducks in day we it let's get all of our ducks in a row and make sure this launch is good a row and make sure this launch is good a row and make sure this launch is good and if it doesn't feel good I feel like and if it doesn't feel good I feel like and if it doesn't feel good I feel like it it's shocking that I think that it it's shocking that I think that it it's shocking that I think that that's an important point because that's an important point because that's an important point because >> a we were fortunate enough to have early >> a we were fortunate enough to have early >> a we were fortunate enough to have early enough success that enough success that enough success that many many years ago we reached escape many many years ago we reached escape many many years ago we reached escape velocity on if this thing implodes I'm velocity on if this thing implodes I'm velocity on if this thing implodes I'm not going to be out on the street that not going to be out on the street that not going to be out on the street that to me that baseline I mean I grew up in to me that baseline I mean I grew up in to me that baseline I mean I grew up in Denmark working class where I did have Denmark working class where I did have Denmark working class where I did have occasionally like it's near the end of occasionally like it's near the end of occasionally like it's near the end of the month there's no more money okay the month there's no more money okay the month there's no more money okay well great I guess we're eating at the well great I guess we're eating at the well great I guess we're eating at the grandparents for the next couple of days grandparents for the next couple of days grandparents for the next couple of days because that's just what it is I think because that's just what it is I think because that's just what it is I think if you grow up under those circumstances if you grow up under those circumstances if you grow up under those circumstances I mean and I have actually no qualms I mean and I have actually no qualms I mean and I have actually no qualms about that most of all of that was great about that most of all of that was great about that most of all of that was great and I treasure having being brought up and I treasure having being brought up and I treasure having being brought up that way. But it did leave me with for that way. But it did leave me with for that way. But it did leave me with for some period of time this sense that like some period of time this sense that like some period of time this sense that like I I would like to be at a place where I I I would like to be at a place where I I I would like to be at a place where I don't have to worry about the end of the don't have to worry about the end of the don't have to worry about the end of the month, whatever that means. And we just month, whatever that means. And we just month, whatever that means. And we just reached that quite early because in part reached that quite early because in part reached that quite early because in part that we were not just putting it all in. that we were not just putting it all in. that we were not just putting it all in. We took money out from day one almost, We took money out from day one almost, We took money out from day one almost, not quite. year two at the very latest not quite. year two at the very latest not quite. year two at the very latest we were pulling out profits and then we we were pulling out profits and then we we were pulling out profits and then we had Basos buying secondaries from Jason had Basos buying secondaries from Jason had Basos buying secondaries from Jason or I that just set a baseline that like or I that just set a baseline that like or I that just set a baseline that like all right now we're pretty set and then all right now we're pretty set and then all right now we're pretty set and then the next couple years were very nice and the next couple years were very nice and the next couple years were very nice and therefore we ended up really early at a therefore we ended up really early at a therefore we ended up really early at a stage where I all I I felt like we were stage where I all I I felt like we were stage where I all I I felt like we were in overtime. We were in overtime in like in overtime. We were in overtime in like in overtime. We were in overtime in like 2008 where I'm like it's all gravy. I've 2008 where I'm like it's all gravy. I've 2008 where I'm like it's all gravy. I've already done the touchdown. I've already already done the touchdown. I've already already done the touchdown. I've already secured the the base here. So, if this secured the the base here. So, if this secured the the base here. So, if this stops tomorrow, I will look back upon stops tomorrow, I will look back upon stops tomorrow, I will look back upon the whole thing with immense gratitude. the whole thing with immense gratitude. the whole thing with immense gratitude. What a privilege to be able to work on What a privilege to be able to work on What a privilege to be able to work on these incredibly these incredibly these incredibly satisfying products that customers satisfying products that customers satisfying products that customers really like to have kicked off Ruby and really like to have kicked off Ruby and really like to have kicked off Ruby and Rails, to have been there at the birth Rails, to have been there at the birth Rails, to have been there at the birth of SAS, to have seen everything. Wow, of SAS, to have seen everything. Wow, of SAS, to have seen everything. Wow, that is not something everyone can say that is not something everyone can say that is not something everyone can say and I got to do it. So now I'm just in and I got to do it. So now I'm just in and I got to do it. So now I'm just in I'm in fluffy land. If this ends I'm in fluffy land. If this ends I'm in fluffy land. If this ends tomorrow, I can be at peace with the tomorrow, I can be at peace with the tomorrow, I can be at peace with the whole thing. And I think actually having whole thing. And I think actually having whole thing. And I think actually having that that that instrumental here I will use the word instrumental here I will use the word instrumental here I will use the word instrumental detachment from the instrumental detachment from the instrumental detachment from the outcomes of the business allowed us to outcomes of the business allowed us to outcomes of the business allowed us to be better business people. allowed us to be better business people. allowed us to be better business people. allowed us to have less ego attachment to specific have less ego attachment to specific have less ego attachment to specific outcomes that we did not have any power outcomes that we did not have any power outcomes that we did not have any power to influence anyway. The vast majority to influence anyway. The vast majority to influence anyway. The vast majority of anxiety that wreck entrepreneurs and of anxiety that wreck entrepreneurs and of anxiety that wreck entrepreneurs and builders all the time are about forces builders all the time are about forces builders all the time are about forces outside of their control. The best you outside of their control. The best you outside of their control. The best you can do is do the best you can do. I can do is do the best you can do. I can do is do the best you can do. I don't have another 200% in me. I know I don't have another 200% in me. I know I don't have another 200% in me. I know I found the steady state where I get found the steady state where I get found the steady state where I get maximum productivity out of myself and maximum productivity out of myself and maximum productivity out of myself and it's not by sleeping two hours a night it's not by sleeping two hours a night it's not by sleeping two hours a night for three weeks straight. I know exactly for three weeks straight. I know exactly for three weeks straight. I know exactly where that road ends, Neo, and is not a where that road ends, Neo, and is not a where that road ends, Neo, and is not a place where I want to be. I'm going to place where I want to be. I'm going to place where I want to be. I'm going to be exhausted, stupid, and full of be exhausted, stupid, and full of be exhausted, stupid, and full of mistakes. So, we're going to build the mistakes. So, we're going to build the mistakes. So, we're going to build the setup in such a way that if Hay was setup in such a way that if Hay was setup in such a way that if Hay was going to flunk, going to flunk, going to flunk, okay, we still have plenty of margin. We okay, we still have plenty of margin. We okay, we still have plenty of margin. We sell a base camp. with a bunch of other sell a base camp. with a bunch of other sell a base camp. with a bunch of other legacy products that's paying the bills legacy products that's paying the bills legacy products that's paying the bills and way more than that. So, we get to and way more than that. So, we get to and way more than that. So, we get to have fun. We get to have fun. We get to have fun. We get to have fun. We get to have fun. We get to have fun. We get to chase our ideas. We get to be chase our ideas. We get to be chase our ideas. We get to be ludicrously ambitious in our definition ludicrously ambitious in our definition ludicrously ambitious in our definition of it, which is let's go head-to-head of it, which is let's go head-to-head of it, which is let's go head-to-head with Gmail, a great product that's free with Gmail, a great product that's free with Gmail, a great product that's free to ask someone to buy an email system to ask someone to buy an email system to ask someone to buy an email system that we just came up with. I mean, that that we just came up with. I mean, that that we just came up with. I mean, that is a ludicrous mission if I've ever is a ludicrous mission if I've ever is a ludicrous mission if I've ever heard one. And it worked. Hey, is now heard one. And it worked. Hey, is now heard one. And it worked. Hey, is now what are we on year five? Millions of what are we on year five? Millions of what are we on year five? Millions of dollars. It's been a great success. dollars. It's been a great success. dollars. It's been a great success. Quite a stressful birth. Not because of Quite a stressful birth. Not because of Quite a stressful birth. Not because of anything we did up to launch, but what anything we did up to launch, but what anything we did up to launch, but what Apple did after launch. But that's one Apple did after launch. But that's one Apple did after launch. But that's one of those scenarios I talked about where of those scenarios I talked about where of those scenarios I talked about where outside forces will apply stress to you. outside forces will apply stress to you. outside forces will apply stress to you. And in fact, you should not shy away And in fact, you should not shy away And in fact, you should not shy away from that. I look back upon that from that. I look back upon that from that. I look back upon that experience with Apple with again experience with Apple with again experience with Apple with again tremendous gratitude. I'm so happy Apple tremendous gratitude. I'm so happy Apple tremendous gratitude. I'm so happy Apple chose to be such a greedy debt about it chose to be such a greedy debt about it chose to be such a greedy debt about it because otherwise because otherwise because otherwise >> well you have you have to give context. >> well you have you have to give context. >> well you have you have to give context. The context is um I think that you you The context is um I think that you you The context is um I think that you you complained that they were taking a they complained that they were taking a they complained that they were taking a they had a 30% take from the app store. Is had a 30% take from the app store. Is had a 30% take from the app store. Is that right? that right? that right? >> Yeah. They we launched hey on the same >> Yeah. They we launched hey on the same >> Yeah. They we launched hey on the same premise that we'd always had base camp premise that we'd always had base camp premise that we'd always had base camp in the app store which was this is a in the app store which was this is a in the app store which was this is a companion app to a web product. um we're companion app to a web product. um we're companion app to a web product. um we're not selling anything here in this app not selling anything here in this app not selling anything here in this app store and Apple in the meantime since we store and Apple in the meantime since we store and Apple in the meantime since we had launched Basec Camp had changed its had launched Basec Camp had changed its had launched Basec Camp had changed its mind. It wanted mind. It wanted mind. It wanted more of more. So we were met with this more of more. So we were met with this more of more. So we were met with this shakedown demand that unless we used shakedown demand that unless we used shakedown demand that unless we used inapp purchasing and therefore gave them inapp purchasing and therefore gave them inapp purchasing and therefore gave them 30% of our revenues, they would destroy 30% of our revenues, they would destroy 30% of our revenues, they would destroy our business. And our business. And our business. And when you first hear that and you go when you first hear that and you go when you first hear that and you go like, "Wait, we've been building this like, "Wait, we've been building this like, "Wait, we've been building this for multiple years now, invested for multiple years now, invested for multiple years now, invested millions and millions of dollars, and it millions and millions of dollars, and it millions and millions of dollars, and it could all disappear if Apple just could all disappear if Apple just could all disappear if Apple just decides that we shouldn't get to live." decides that we shouldn't get to live." decides that we shouldn't get to live." Well, that sucks. Well, that sucks. Well, that sucks. >> Sorry. So, so what what actually So, >> Sorry. So, so what what actually So, >> Sorry. So, so what what actually So, they said So, you have a button in your they said So, you have a button in your they said So, you have a button in your app that basically takes you to the web app that basically takes you to the web app that basically takes you to the web where you can pay for it. Great. where you can pay for it. Great. where you can pay for it. Great. >> We didn't. You're saying >> We didn't. You're saying >> We didn't. You're saying >> we didn't. >> we didn't. >> we didn't. >> Oh, you Oh, you just had it where you >> Oh, you Oh, you just had it where you >> Oh, you Oh, you just had it where you sign up on the web. There's a companion sign up on the web. There's a companion sign up on the web. There's a companion app app app >> and so wait, we have to give context. So >> and so wait, we have to give context. So >> and so wait, we have to give context. So hey.com or hey is a Gmail competitor. So hey.com or hey is a Gmail competitor. So hey.com or hey is a Gmail competitor. So presumably you would need your customer presumably you would need your customer presumably you would need your customer to have hey at the bottom of their to have hey at the bottom of their to have hey at the bottom of their iPhone so they can click and read their iPhone so they can click and read their iPhone so they can click and read their mail. mail. mail. >> Correct. You're not going to be >> Correct. You're not going to be >> Correct. You're not going to be competitive with an email service if you competitive with an email service if you competitive with an email service if you don't have an iPhone app because as it don't have an iPhone app because as it don't have an iPhone app because as it just so happens to be most of the people just so happens to be most of the people just so happens to be most of the people who spend so or money on mobile software who spend so or money on mobile software who spend so or money on mobile software and subscriptions they are on the and subscriptions they are on the and subscriptions they are on the iPhone. iPhone. iPhone. Therefore, this was the admission to Therefore, this was the admission to Therefore, this was the admission to market. We did not have a viable market. We did not have a viable market. We did not have a viable business without this. And we thought, business without this. And we thought, business without this. And we thought, hey, we know Apple wants to take 30% if hey, we know Apple wants to take 30% if hey, we know Apple wants to take 30% if you're selling something through the you're selling something through the you're selling something through the app. So, let's just not do that. Let's app. So, let's just not do that. Let's app. So, let's just not do that. Let's just do the sale entirely on our own just do the sale entirely on our own just do the sale entirely on our own properties so that we don't rely on properties so that we don't rely on properties so that we don't rely on Apple for any marketing or anything Apple for any marketing or anything Apple for any marketing or anything else, but they could have a legitimate else, but they could have a legitimate else, but they could have a legitimate claim that they own some of our claim that they own some of our claim that they own some of our business. And once people have signed up business. And once people have signed up business. And once people have signed up on hey.com for their new amazing email on hey.com for their new amazing email on hey.com for their new amazing email address, they will go to the app store address, they will go to the app store address, they will go to the app store and download the companion app and they and download the companion app and they and download the companion app and they will log in with the credentials they will log in with the credentials they will log in with the credentials they already have. And that kicked off this already have. And that kicked off this already have. And that kicked off this completely nonsensical completely nonsensical completely nonsensical battle with Apple where at the bottom of battle with Apple where at the bottom of battle with Apple where at the bottom of it they were just like, "No, I just want it they were just like, "No, I just want it they were just like, "No, I just want 30% of your business. So what are you 30% of your business. So what are you 30% of your business. So what are you going to do about it?" And they of going to do about it?" And they of going to do about it?" And they of course assumed that we like virtually course assumed that we like virtually course assumed that we like virtually every other software company that every other software company that every other software company that they've tried this shakeddown tactic they've tried this shakeddown tactic they've tried this shakeddown tactic would just go like well cost of doing would just go like well cost of doing would just go like well cost of doing business but because our circumstances business but because our circumstances business but because our circumstances are as they are and as we've been are as they are and as we've been are as they are and as we've been discussing now for quite a while discussing now for quite a while discussing now for quite a while >> Jason and I just went like no that we're >> Jason and I just went like no that we're >> Jason and I just went like no that we're not doing that I would rather burn down not doing that I would rather burn down not doing that I would rather burn down millions of dollars to build over two millions of dollars to build over two millions of dollars to build over two years than to pay the gangster shake years than to pay the gangster shake years than to pay the gangster shake down. So I think that took Apple well I down. So I think that took Apple well I down. So I think that took Apple well I know it took Apple by surprise because know it took Apple by surprise because know it took Apple by surprise because we then entered into a two week long we then entered into a two week long we then entered into a two week long very public skirmish over these terms very public skirmish over these terms very public skirmish over these terms and ended up in a place where Apple let and ended up in a place where Apple let and ended up in a place where Apple let us be and essentially rewrote the rules us be and essentially rewrote the rules us be and essentially rewrote the rules to fit the exemption around us and our to fit the exemption around us and our to fit the exemption around us and our email product but not before email product but not before email product but not before uh causing a tremendous amount of stress uh causing a tremendous amount of stress uh causing a tremendous amount of stress in that two period. in that two period. in that two period. >> So >> So >> So >> but you won you won right? I mean, you >> but you won you won right? I mean, you >> but you won you won right? I mean, you got you got the outcome you wanted got you got the outcome you wanted got you got the outcome you wanted >> largely, right? We got what we launched, >> largely, right? We got what we launched, >> largely, right? We got what we launched, what we thought we were due, right? We what we thought we were due, right? We what we thought we were due, right? We thought we were due that you could thought we were due that you could thought we were due that you could launch a free app in the app store if launch a free app in the app store if launch a free app in the app store if you did no sales activity on that app you did no sales activity on that app you did no sales activity on that app and then you did all your own business, and then you did all your own business, and then you did all your own business, right? Like Jason was like, "We're not right? Like Jason was like, "We're not right? Like Jason was like, "We're not looking for a handout here from Apple. looking for a handout here from Apple. looking for a handout here from Apple. We're not looking for Apple to give us a We're not looking for Apple to give us a We're not looking for Apple to give us a bunch of customers. We will find our own bunch of customers. We will find our own bunch of customers. We will find our own customers. Thank you very much. But we customers. Thank you very much. But we customers. Thank you very much. But we want those customers to be able to use want those customers to be able to use want those customers to be able to use the computer in their pocket that they the computer in their pocket that they the computer in their pocket that they pay at a thousand dollars to buy to use pay at a thousand dollars to buy to use pay at a thousand dollars to buy to use the system with us. Like how should the system with us. Like how should the system with us. Like how should Apple have a say in whether your Apple have a say in whether your Apple have a say in whether your personal pocket computer should be able personal pocket computer should be able personal pocket computer should be able to be used with hate? That just seemed to be used with hate? That just seemed to be used with hate? That just seemed preposterous and very much the wrong end preposterous and very much the wrong end preposterous and very much the wrong end of where I wanted technology to go. of where I wanted technology to go. of where I wanted technology to go. Because if we just rewind a bit, this Because if we just rewind a bit, this Because if we just rewind a bit, this entire business, my entire career is entire business, my entire career is entire business, my entire career is premised on two main things. The premised on two main things. The premised on two main things. The internet open source and what those two internet open source and what those two internet open source and what those two share is that there's no one to ask for share is that there's no one to ask for share is that there's no one to ask for permission. If I use a piece of open permission. If I use a piece of open permission. If I use a piece of open source software according to its source software according to its source software according to its license, I can do whatever the hell I license, I can do whatever the hell I license, I can do whatever the hell I want. If I publish a website on the want. If I publish a website on the want. If I publish a website on the internet and it's not exactly internet and it's not exactly internet and it's not exactly CSAM CSAM CSAM stuff, illegal thing selling drugs, I stuff, illegal thing selling drugs, I stuff, illegal thing selling drugs, I get to do it. I don't have to ask anyone get to do it. I don't have to ask anyone get to do it. I don't have to ask anyone for permission. a little bit more for permission. a little bit more for permission. a little bit more permission these days but especially in permission these days but especially in permission these days but especially in the early days no permission so no the early days no permission so no the early days no permission so no permission tech no permission platform permission tech no permission platform permission tech no permission platform this is what me likes so this whole idea this is what me likes so this whole idea this is what me likes so this whole idea that now computing was going to be that now computing was going to be that now computing was going to be gatekept gatekept gatekept by two companies Apple and Google was by two companies Apple and Google was by two companies Apple and Google was just completely incompatible with what I just completely incompatible with what I just completely incompatible with what I wanted to see in the world so therefore wanted to see in the world so therefore wanted to see in the world so therefore we had like we had all the margin to be we had like we had all the margin to be we had like we had all the margin to be able to do it this was a new product yes able to do it this was a new product yes able to do it this was a new product yes we'd invested millions of dollars but we we'd invested millions of dollars but we we'd invested millions of dollars but we still not the other thing. So, we went still not the other thing. So, we went still not the other thing. So, we went to the mat for the principles of it, for to the mat for the principles of it, for to the mat for the principles of it, for our own integrity, for our own goddamn our own integrity, for our own goddamn our own integrity, for our own goddamn indignation over just how wrong this was indignation over just how wrong this was indignation over just how wrong this was and how much of a betrayal it felt like and how much of a betrayal it felt like and how much of a betrayal it felt like because I've been a Mac super fan because I've been a Mac super fan because I've been a Mac super fan freaking 20 years. Jason and I, I don't freaking 20 years. Jason and I, I don't freaking 20 years. Jason and I, I don't know if you talked about this, but Jason know if you talked about this, but Jason know if you talked about this, but Jason and I did an ad for Apple. You can still and I did an ad for Apple. You can still and I did an ad for Apple. You can still find it on YouTube. I think in 2003 or find it on YouTube. I think in 2003 or find it on YouTube. I think in 2003 or something where we were all about like something where we were all about like something where we were all about like Apple's amazing and we need these Apple's amazing and we need these Apple's amazing and we need these beautiful computers to do all our stuff beautiful computers to do all our stuff beautiful computers to do all our stuff and it was on the Apple website for and it was on the Apple website for and it was on the Apple website for quite a while. So it's not like I came quite a while. So it's not like I came quite a while. So it's not like I came in with a grudge here. I came in with in with a grudge here. I came in with in with a grudge here. I came in with like I there was a mistake. This was how like I there was a mistake. This was how like I there was a mistake. This was how the whole thing started. Oh the whole thing started. Oh the whole thing started. Oh >> that turned out as well as it could >> that turned out as well as it could >> that turned out as well as it could have. But it did inspire me to explore have. But it did inspire me to explore have. But it did inspire me to explore new terrain. And if I hadn't if I hadn't new terrain. And if I hadn't if I hadn't new terrain. And if I hadn't if I hadn't had that experience, would I build my had that experience, would I build my had that experience, would I build my own Linux distribution that is now used own Linux distribution that is now used own Linux distribution that is now used by tens of thousands of people? Would I by tens of thousands of people? Would I by tens of thousands of people? Would I have discovered this wonderful new world have discovered this wonderful new world have discovered this wonderful new world of the Linux operating system of of the Linux operating system of of the Linux operating system of Hyperland, of Arch, of mechanical Hyperland, of Arch, of mechanical Hyperland, of Arch, of mechanical keyboards and all this other computer keyboards and all this other computer keyboards and all this other computer stuff that exists outside of the walled stuff that exists outside of the walled stuff that exists outside of the walled Apple Garden? No, I would not. I would Apple Garden? No, I would not. I would Apple Garden? No, I would not. I would >> What device are you taking this call on? >> What device are you taking this call on? >> What device are you taking this call on? What are you on right now? Uh, I'm doing What are you on right now? Uh, I'm doing What are you on right now? Uh, I'm doing this call from my framework desktop this call from my framework desktop this call from my framework desktop running Amachi and my uh, delicious running Amachi and my uh, delicious running Amachi and my uh, delicious mechanical lowprofile keyboard and it mechanical lowprofile keyboard and it mechanical lowprofile keyboard and it all just works beautifully. There is a all just works beautifully. There is a all just works beautifully. There is a piece of Apple in the equation. I still piece of Apple in the equation. I still piece of Apple in the equation. I still have an Apple 32 in monitor. I bought have an Apple 32 in monitor. I bought have an Apple 32 in monitor. I bought three of those when they came out for three of those when they came out for three of those when they came out for different locations and they still work different locations and they still work different locations and they still work great. In fact, they work better than great. In fact, they work better than great. In fact, they work better than great. Wonderful monitor and they work great. Wonderful monitor and they work great. Wonderful monitor and they work well with Linux. So, there's still a well with Linux. So, there's still a well with Linux. So, there's still a little bit of Apple. You you told that little bit of Apple. You you told that little bit of Apple. You you told that story with the veracity of like the the story with the veracity of like the the story with the veracity of like the the the anger of a Shakespearean actor, you the anger of a Shakespearean actor, you the anger of a Shakespearean actor, you know, like the way that your voice goes know, like the way that your voice goes know, like the way that your voice goes up and down and up and down and up and down and >> there is definitely some uh fierce uh >> there is definitely some uh fierce uh >> there is definitely some uh fierce uh Viking blood being awakened Viking blood being awakened Viking blood being awakened here. here. here. >> Your ancestors would be so proud. I love >> Your ancestors would be so proud. I love >> Your ancestors would be so proud. I love this. this. this. >> I hope >> I hope >> I hope >> this is amazing. Uh David, thanks for >> this is amazing. Uh David, thanks for >> this is amazing. Uh David, thanks for coming on, man. We we appreciate you coming on, man. We we appreciate you coming on, man. We we appreciate you doing this. Uh everyone should follow doing this. Uh everyone should follow doing this. Uh everyone should follow you on Twitter, the blog, go use all you on Twitter, the blog, go use all you on Twitter, the blog, go use all your stuff. Uh you guys are awesome. your stuff. Uh you guys are awesome. your stuff. Uh you guys are awesome. Like me and Sam said, we've been uh Like me and Sam said, we've been uh Like me and Sam said, we've been uh inspired by you and Jason for a very inspired by you and Jason for a very inspired by you and Jason for a very long time of uh you do things your own long time of uh you do things your own long time of uh you do things your own way. And I think that's the highest way. And I think that's the highest way. And I think that's the highest compliment that we can give. compliment that we can give. compliment that we can give. >> You said uh you were quoting someone who >> You said uh you were quoting someone who >> You said uh you were quoting someone who said um I hate wisdom. And I can I could said um I hate wisdom. And I can I could said um I hate wisdom. And I can I could say that's a beautiful quote, but that say that's a beautiful quote, but that say that's a beautiful quote, but that it's not the truth how we feel about it's not the truth how we feel about it's not the truth how we feel about your wisdom. So thank you so much. Um your wisdom. So thank you so much. Um your wisdom. So thank you so much. Um that's it. That's the pod.