10 Years After Losing Her Husband: Lucy Kalanithi Reveals the Truth About Grief No One Talks About

10 years after losing her husband, Lucy 10 years after losing her husband, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks joins me to explore what grief looks joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade. like after a decade. like after a decade. >> He ultimately got the news that he had a >> He ultimately got the news that he had a >> He ultimately got the news that he had a chest [music] X-ray that essentially chest [music] X-ray that essentially chest [music] X-ray that essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like dense with tumors. We both knew like dense with tumors. We both knew like dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. I never thought I was what it meant. I never thought I was what it meant. I never thought I was going to feel okay. It was like Paul going to feel okay. It was like Paul going to feel okay. It was like Paul died and I was like, it's all over. died and I was like, it's all over. died and I was like, it's all over. >> What did being so close to death [music] >> What did being so close to death [music] >> What did being so close to death [music] teach you about life and living? teach you about life and living? teach you about life and living? >> There's two big questions. What would be >> There's two big questions. What would be >> There's two big questions. What would be [music] left undone? and how can I live [music] left undone? and how can I live [music] left undone? and how can I live most fully in the time I have left? most fully in the time I have left? most fully in the time I have left? [music] >> Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, >> Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, the place you come to become happier, the place you come to become happier, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's healthier, and more healed. Today's healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is Dr. Lucy Kanathy, 10 years guest is Dr. Lucy Kanathy, 10 years guest is Dr. Lucy Kanathy, 10 years after losing a husband, bestselling after losing a husband, bestselling after losing a husband, bestselling author and neurosurgeon Paul Kanathy. author and neurosurgeon Paul Kanathy. author and neurosurgeon Paul Kanathy. Lucy joins me to explore what grief Lucy joins me to explore what grief Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade, how love looks like after a decade, how love looks like after a decade, how love evolves after loss, and what being so evolves after loss, and what being so evolves after loss, and what being so close to death can teach us about being close to death can teach us about being close to death can teach us about being fully alive. fully alive. fully alive. Lucy Kanathy, welcome to On Purpose. Lucy Kanathy, welcome to On Purpose. Lucy Kanathy, welcome to On Purpose. >> Thanks for having me. I have waited for >> Thanks for having me. I have waited for >> Thanks for having me. I have waited for this conversation this conversation this conversation since I've read the book and when breath since I've read the book and when breath since I've read the book and when breath becomes air and I read it becomes air and I read it becomes air and I read it when I still lived in New York when I when I still lived in New York when I when I still lived in New York when I moved to the states and it moved me so moved to the states and it moved me so moved to the states and it moved me so much because I hadn't really come across much because I hadn't really come across much because I hadn't really come across a book like that that felt like it was a book like that that felt like it was a book like that that felt like it was written at such a powerful moment and written at such a powerful moment and written at such a powerful moment and such a pivotal moment in someone's life such a pivotal moment in someone's life such a pivotal moment in someone's life >> and then to have your reflections within >> and then to have your reflections within >> and then to have your reflections within it as well. It's kind of left an imprint it as well. It's kind of left an imprint it as well. It's kind of left an imprint on me and then my team and I were on me and then my team and I were on me and then my team and I were sitting down and we're thinking about sitting down and we're thinking about sitting down and we're thinking about books that had had an impact on us as a books that had had an impact on us as a books that had had an impact on us as a team and and this came to mind team and and this came to mind team and and this came to mind immediately and so I can't tell you how immediately and so I can't tell you how immediately and so I can't tell you how grateful I am for your time and energy grateful I am for your time and energy grateful I am for your time and energy for the trip over here. I know you've for the trip over here. I know you've for the trip over here. I know you've traveled here especially to be with us traveled here especially to be with us traveled here especially to be with us in LA and just want to start off by in LA and just want to start off by in LA and just want to start off by saying thank you. saying thank you. saying thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Tell me what does it feel like >> Tell me what does it feel like >> Tell me what does it feel like remembering Paul 10 years on. I used to remembering Paul 10 years on. I used to remembering Paul 10 years on. I used to think life was like a mountain that you think life was like a mountain that you think life was like a mountain that you climb. Like I'll follow the path and climb. Like I'll follow the path and climb. Like I'll follow the path and then I'll get where I'm going. And now then I'll get where I'm going. And now then I'll get where I'm going. And now like having lost Paul, having taken our like having lost Paul, having taken our like having lost Paul, having taken our daughter from being a baby to now being daughter from being a baby to now being daughter from being a baby to now being a seventh grader, I think of life much a seventh grader, I think of life much a seventh grader, I think of life much more as like a series of moments. In a more as like a series of moments. In a more as like a series of moments. In a way, it's like that my marriage and way, it's like that my marriage and way, it's like that my marriage and Paul's illness and even medical school, Paul's illness and even medical school, Paul's illness and even medical school, right? Those were all mixed together. right? Those were all mixed together. right? Those were all mixed together. Medical school, residency, being Medical school, residency, being Medical school, residency, being married, losing him. That was like a married, losing him. That was like a married, losing him. That was like a chapter. And now I'm in such a different chapter. And now I'm in such a different chapter. And now I'm in such a different chapter. It's actually kind of amazing chapter. It's actually kind of amazing chapter. It's actually kind of amazing for the opportunity to like dip back in for the opportunity to like dip back in for the opportunity to like dip back in like to get sort of like talking about like to get sort of like talking about like to get sort of like talking about Paul in a way that's really embodied Paul in a way that's really embodied Paul in a way that's really embodied because you're also experiencing him and because you're also experiencing him and because you're also experiencing him and we're talking about him in like in a we're talking about him in like in a we're talking about him in like in a real way. And at the same time, he's real way. And at the same time, he's real way. And at the same time, he's like sprinkled through my life all over like sprinkled through my life all over like sprinkled through my life all over the place. Like, you know, I'll go the place. Like, you know, I'll go the place. Like, you know, I'll go through like a breakup and think like through like a breakup and think like through like a breakup and think like what would Paul say, you know, in this what would Paul say, you know, in this what would Paul say, you know, in this situation to me, to him. And also just situation to me, to him. And also just situation to me, to him. And also just like what would Paul think of Katie? like what would Paul think of Katie? like what would Paul think of Katie? She's so different. She's such a like She's so different. She's such a like She's so different. She's such a like singular specific person, not a baby, singular specific person, not a baby, singular specific person, not a baby, you know? So, I guess like the things I you know? So, I guess like the things I you know? So, I guess like the things I can say about it are like 10 years on, can say about it are like 10 years on, can say about it are like 10 years on, you know, I never thought I was going to you know, I never thought I was going to you know, I never thought I was going to feel okay. It was like Paul died and I feel okay. It was like Paul died and I feel okay. It was like Paul died and I was like, it's all over. Who am I? What was like, it's all over. Who am I? What was like, it's all over. Who am I? What happened? Like, it's me and I'm here and happened? Like, it's me and I'm here and happened? Like, it's me and I'm here and I have this baby, but I'm so lonely. How I have this baby, but I'm so lonely. How I have this baby, but I'm so lonely. How is this ever going to fill in? And my is this ever going to fill in? And my is this ever going to fill in? And my mom said like things will fill in. It'll mom said like things will fill in. It'll mom said like things will fill in. It'll become okay. And I was like, I literally become okay. And I was like, I literally become okay. And I was like, I literally don't believe you. But it's like things don't believe you. But it's like things don't believe you. But it's like things do like things become okay. And then at do like things become okay. And then at do like things become okay. And then at the same time, like even after you lose the same time, like even after you lose the same time, like even after you lose someone, like they don't even remain someone, like they don't even remain someone, like they don't even remain static even though they're gone. Like static even though they're gone. Like static even though they're gone. Like you're not static. You continue to learn you're not static. You continue to learn you're not static. You continue to learn new things about them. You know, with new things about them. You know, with new things about them. You know, with Paul, I hear from Paul's readers about Paul, I hear from Paul's readers about Paul, I hear from Paul's readers about his book. And that's sort of like an his book. And that's sort of like an his book. And that's sort of like an ongoing relationship with him through ongoing relationship with him through ongoing relationship with him through other people. Anyway, I guess it's all other people. Anyway, I guess it's all other people. Anyway, I guess it's all just like a beautiful, terrible mix. just like a beautiful, terrible mix. just like a beautiful, terrible mix. Thank you for sharing that. Is there is Thank you for sharing that. Is there is Thank you for sharing that. Is there is there anything you understand there anything you understand there anything you understand differently about Paul? differently about Paul? differently about Paul? >> Yeah. I mean like the thing that makes >> Yeah. I mean like the thing that makes >> Yeah. I mean like the thing that makes me feel like when it burst into tears is me feel like when it burst into tears is me feel like when it burst into tears is actually a thing I don't yet understand actually a thing I don't yet understand actually a thing I don't yet understand which is you know Paul he was a doctor. which is you know Paul he was a doctor. which is you know Paul he was a doctor. He was a young neurosurgeon He was a young neurosurgeon He was a young neurosurgeon really interested in meaning and really interested in meaning and really interested in meaning and mortality like thought he would become a mortality like thought he would become a mortality like thought he would become a professor of philosophy or a writer and professor of philosophy or a writer and professor of philosophy or a writer and then sort of surprised himself by going then sort of surprised himself by going then sort of surprised himself by going into medicine. um and was incredibly into medicine. um and was incredibly into medicine. um and was incredibly intoxicated by neurosurgery because the intoxicated by neurosurgery because the intoxicated by neurosurgery because the brain is just an organ in our body like brain is just an organ in our body like brain is just an organ in our body like our liver, like our heart, but then it's our liver, like our heart, but then it's our liver, like our heart, but then it's also the seat of identity. And he was so also the seat of identity. And he was so also the seat of identity. And he was so interested in okay, if you're undergoing interested in okay, if you're undergoing interested in okay, if you're undergoing like brain trauma, a stroke, you know, a like brain trauma, a stroke, you know, a like brain trauma, a stroke, you know, a tumor, how does that alter your identity tumor, how does that alter your identity tumor, how does that alter your identity and meaning, but also how does like and meaning, but also how does like and meaning, but also how does like neurosurgery alter your sense of neurosurgery alter your sense of neurosurgery alter your sense of identity? He was really interested in identity? He was really interested in identity? He was really interested in patients who were facing like upheavalss patients who were facing like upheavalss patients who were facing like upheavalss in meaning and identity. Then he himself in meaning and identity. Then he himself in meaning and identity. Then he himself became sick, had to face this whole became sick, had to face this whole became sick, had to face this whole upheaval, had to face the end of his upheaval, had to face the end of his upheaval, had to face the end of his life. And I felt like as Paul was going life. And I felt like as Paul was going life. And I felt like as Paul was going through this serious illness and dying, through this serious illness and dying, through this serious illness and dying, I really felt immediately in it with I really felt immediately in it with I really felt immediately in it with him. I felt so like fused with him. We him. I felt so like fused with him. We him. I felt so like fused with him. We had to do so many things together to had to do so many things together to had to do so many things together to take care of him, to make sure the book take care of him, to make sure the book take care of him, to make sure the book got written, to cope, to like show up got written, to cope, to like show up got written, to cope, to like show up for each other in like every way. But I for each other in like every way. But I for each other in like every way. But I wonder whether wonder whether wonder whether like when and if something happens to me like when and if something happens to me like when and if something happens to me and I'm sick and dying if I'll read and I'm sick and dying if I'll read and I'm sick and dying if I'll read Paul's book and see how much I didn't Paul's book and see how much I didn't Paul's book and see how much I didn't understand understand understand >> and see like new things in the words or >> and see like new things in the words or >> and see like new things in the words or like reflect on his experience and think like reflect on his experience and think like reflect on his experience and think like oh was he alone in that and so like like oh was he alone in that and so like like oh was he alone in that and so like that sort of breaks my heart like what that sort of breaks my heart like what that sort of breaks my heart like what did I miss did I miss did I miss >> you know in answer to your question of >> you know in answer to your question of >> you know in answer to your question of like how have I gotten to know Paul like how have I gotten to know Paul like how have I gotten to know Paul differently yeah I mean when someone differently yeah I mean when someone differently yeah I mean when someone dies like stories come rushing in and dies like stories come rushing in and dies like stories come rushing in and then I think reading his book at then I think reading his book at then I think reading his book at different phases of my own life I even different phases of my own life I even different phases of my own life I even get different things even though I knew get different things even though I knew get different things even though I knew him so well. Um, and then I think you him so well. Um, and then I think you him so well. Um, and then I think you know just the process there's a flip know just the process there's a flip know just the process there's a flip side which is like how to not flatten side which is like how to not flatten side which is like how to not flatten someone after they die. Like I think someone after they die. Like I think someone after they die. Like I think like when someone dies they're sort of like when someone dies they're sort of like when someone dies they're sort of suddenly they become like so amazing and suddenly they become like so amazing and suddenly they become like so amazing and perfect and I can't believe we lost this perfect and I can't believe we lost this perfect and I can't believe we lost this person and all those things are true but person and all those things are true but person and all those things are true but at the same time it's like he like you at the same time it's like he like you at the same time it's like he like you know left his socks on the floor and it know left his socks on the floor and it know left his socks on the floor and it annoyed [laughter] me like you know just annoyed [laughter] me like you know just annoyed [laughter] me like you know just he was just a regular person and he was he was just a regular person and he was he was just a regular person and he was funny and he drank too much whiskey and funny and he drank too much whiskey and funny and he drank too much whiskey and he like just he was like textured you he like just he was like textured you he like just he was like textured you know and so I often think about like all know and so I often think about like all know and so I often think about like all the things I do remember about him. How the things I do remember about him. How the things I do remember about him. How do I keep those like in memory and keep do I keep those like in memory and keep do I keep those like in memory and keep him like complicated instead of like him like complicated instead of like him like complicated instead of like mythic? mythic? mythic? >> Both of those answers to what you said, >> Both of those answers to what you said, >> Both of those answers to what you said, you almost feel like you don't you almost feel like you don't you almost feel like you don't understand, which maybe you never will understand, which maybe you never will understand, which maybe you never will until we're all in the same position and until we're all in the same position and until we're all in the same position and going through something similar. And going through something similar. And going through something similar. And when we're facing not loss through when we're facing not loss through when we're facing not loss through someone else, but loss of ourselves, someone else, but loss of ourselves, someone else, but loss of ourselves, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> There may be certain things that we miss >> There may be certain things that we miss >> There may be certain things that we miss on that journey and we we don't on that journey and we we don't on that journey and we we don't recognize and and maybe we shouldn't. recognize and and maybe we shouldn't. recognize and and maybe we shouldn't. until until until >> sure. Yeah. I couldn't. Yeah. Exactly. >> sure. Yeah. I couldn't. Yeah. Exactly. >> sure. Yeah. I couldn't. Yeah. Exactly. But then on the flip side, the idea that But then on the flip side, the idea that But then on the flip side, the idea that you're saying that you're saying that you're saying that >> it's almost like >> it's almost like >> it's almost like >> sometimes we don't celebrate people >> sometimes we don't celebrate people >> sometimes we don't celebrate people until they're gone. until they're gone. until they're gone. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And we only see all the bad things. >> And we only see all the bad things. >> And we only see all the bad things. >> Isn't that interesting? >> Isn't that interesting? >> Isn't that interesting? >> Yeah. And then as you're saying on the >> Yeah. And then as you're saying on the >> Yeah. And then as you're saying on the flip side, when someone goes, we only flip side, when someone goes, we only flip side, when someone goes, we only see the good things and we don't And see the good things and we don't And see the good things and we don't And it's so fascinating how the mind does it's so fascinating how the mind does it's so fascinating how the mind does that, that, that, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I guess he would know as a neurosurgeon >> I guess he would know as a neurosurgeon >> I guess he would know as a neurosurgeon like he'd know why we why we do that. like he'd know why we why we do that. like he'd know why we why we do that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and where that comes from. Like >> Yeah. and where that comes from. Like >> Yeah. and where that comes from. Like why is it that we kind of why is it that we kind of why is it that we kind of >> right like what's the neuroscience of >> right like what's the neuroscience of >> right like what's the neuroscience of grief? grief? grief? >> The neuroscience of that grief of how we >> The neuroscience of that grief of how we >> The neuroscience of that grief of how we block people's good things when they're block people's good things when they're block people's good things when they're alive and block people's you know bad alive and block people's you know bad alive and block people's you know bad things when they're gone and things when they're gone and things when they're gone and >> right or is it about remembering like >> right or is it about remembering like >> right or is it about remembering like remember to notice when you have your remember to notice when you have your remember to notice when you have your person here and then yeah when they person here and then yeah when they person here and then yeah when they leave remember to yeah don't forget leave remember to yeah don't forget leave remember to yeah don't forget >> when you hear the age-old phrase time >> when you hear the age-old phrase time >> when you hear the age-old phrase time heals all wounds how does that sit with heals all wounds how does that sit with heals all wounds how does that sit with you? I mean, it's sort of like you? I mean, it's sort of like you? I mean, it's sort of like simplistic and it actually makes it simplistic and it actually makes it simplistic and it actually makes it sound like the wounds will then go away. sound like the wounds will then go away. sound like the wounds will then go away. And so, I don't believe that part, but I And so, I don't believe that part, but I And so, I don't believe that part, but I do believe I do think time heals all do believe I do think time heals all do believe I do think time heals all wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry was writing about grief and he said was writing about grief and he said was writing about grief and he said something like um grief is a wound that something like um grief is a wound that something like um grief is a wound that fers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't fers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't fers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't agree with that because if something agree with that because if something agree with that because if something fers, it's like untended, right? And so, fers, it's like untended, right? And so, fers, it's like untended, right? And so, I do think like there will always be a I do think like there will always be a I do think like there will always be a scar. There will always be something scar. There will always be something scar. There will always be something that looks different, feels different, that looks different, feels different, that looks different, feels different, something you're carrying, something something you're carrying, something something you're carrying, something you're literally carrying on your body. you're literally carrying on your body. you're literally carrying on your body. Like that's also how grief feels. I Like that's also how grief feels. I Like that's also how grief feels. I think if you can sort of think to think if you can sort of think to think if you can sort of think to yourself like it's going to be okay in yourself like it's going to be okay in yourself like it's going to be okay in some way. You just don't know what okay some way. You just don't know what okay some way. You just don't know what okay means and like sort of let the pain move means and like sort of let the pain move means and like sort of let the pain move through you. You will end up somewhere, through you. You will end up somewhere, through you. You will end up somewhere, you know, that's different and better you know, that's different and better you know, that's different and better than you thought. than you thought. than you thought. >> Yeah. It's it's interesting how all >> Yeah. It's it's interesting how all >> Yeah. It's it's interesting how all these statements have stood the test of these statements have stood the test of these statements have stood the test of time. time. time. But they have so much nuance when you're But they have so much nuance when you're But they have so much nuance when you're actually living them. actually living them. actually living them. >> Yeah. Yeah. And some of them don't work, >> Yeah. Yeah. And some of them don't work, >> Yeah. Yeah. And some of them don't work, right? Like or you you have to decide right? Like or you you have to decide right? Like or you you have to decide which ones work for you. Like if someone which ones work for you. Like if someone which ones work for you. Like if someone sends you a card with something on it or sends you a card with something on it or sends you a card with something on it or if someone says, you know, everything if someone says, you know, everything if someone says, you know, everything happens for a reason and you don't happens for a reason and you don't happens for a reason and you don't believe that, it's not helpful. But believe that, it's not helpful. But believe that, it's not helpful. But you're right. I think many of those like you're right. I think many of those like you're right. I think many of those like things in literature, sayings like that things in literature, sayings like that things in literature, sayings like that hold up. hold up. hold up. >> What do you feel about that one? >> What do you feel about that one? >> What do you feel about that one? Everything happens for a reason. I don't Everything happens for a reason. I don't Everything happens for a reason. I don't subscribe to that necessarily, subscribe to that necessarily, subscribe to that necessarily, but I think more than I did before, I but I think more than I did before, I but I think more than I did before, I think when hard things happen, I do think when hard things happen, I do think when hard things happen, I do believe something beautiful will come believe something beautiful will come believe something beautiful will come out of it. out of it. out of it. >> Something even if the only thing that >> Something even if the only thing that >> Something even if the only thing that comes out of it is that you suffered, comes out of it is that you suffered, comes out of it is that you suffered, which connects you to every human being which connects you to every human being which connects you to every human being everywhere across time ever. and then everywhere across time ever. and then everywhere across time ever. and then potentially deepens your empathy for potentially deepens your empathy for potentially deepens your empathy for other people or deepens your ability to other people or deepens your ability to other people or deepens your ability to be a friend or you know whatever it be a friend or you know whatever it be a friend or you know whatever it might be. So, and then I think like might be. So, and then I think like might be. So, and then I think like >> suffering. Have you read Man's Search >> suffering. Have you read Man's Search >> suffering. Have you read Man's Search for Meaning? for Meaning? for Meaning? >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. No, it's so gorgeous. >> Yeah, of course. No, it's so gorgeous. >> Yeah, of course. No, it's so gorgeous. No, no, you're saying Yeah. I'm not No, no, you're saying Yeah. I'm not No, no, you're saying Yeah. I'm not surprised you read it. That's why I say surprised you read it. That's why I say surprised you read it. That's why I say and like Victor Frankle who you know and like Victor Frankle who you know and like Victor Frankle who you know survived the Holocaust in a survived the Holocaust in a survived the Holocaust in a concentration camp and then went on to concentration camp and then went on to concentration camp and then went on to become a therapist afterward. He talks become a therapist afterward. He talks become a therapist afterward. He talks about witnessing all of these people and about witnessing all of these people and about witnessing all of these people and how they survived the unservivable. how they survived the unservivable. how they survived the unservivable. And he ends up talking about like how And he ends up talking about like how And he ends up talking about like how purpose or relationships like you purpose or relationships like you purpose or relationships like you wouldn't survive just because you had wouldn't survive just because you had wouldn't survive just because you had those, but you could only survive if you those, but you could only survive if you those, but you could only survive if you had something you were waiting for or had something you were waiting for or had something you were waiting for or someone who was waiting for you on the someone who was waiting for you on the someone who was waiting for you on the other side. And ultimately he ends up other side. And ultimately he ends up other side. And ultimately he ends up talking about how suffering is actually talking about how suffering is actually talking about how suffering is actually a really meaningful part of our lives. a really meaningful part of our lives. a really meaningful part of our lives. He says like his construction is that He says like his construction is that He says like his construction is that meaning comes from three things. And he meaning comes from three things. And he meaning comes from three things. And he says he conceives of work and love and says he conceives of work and love and says he conceives of work and love and suffering. And I love that. He says work suffering. And I love that. He says work suffering. And I love that. He says work is like the things you do and create you is like the things you do and create you is like the things you do and create you know like the imprint you leave on the know like the imprint you leave on the know like the imprint you leave on the world. Maybe love is like all the types world. Maybe love is like all the types world. Maybe love is like all the types of love between people and then of love between people and then of love between people and then gratitude also and just like love at gratitude also and just like love at gratitude also and just like love at large. And then suffering. He talks large. And then suffering. He talks large. And then suffering. He talks about how like suffering is not this about how like suffering is not this about how like suffering is not this sort of like side event that you wish sort of like side event that you wish sort of like side event that you wish would go away. It is here. It will be would go away. It is here. It will be would go away. It is here. It will be here. here. here. >> Whether something beautiful comes out of >> Whether something beautiful comes out of >> Whether something beautiful comes out of it, whether it connects you to other it, whether it connects you to other it, whether it connects you to other people or whether just like the pure people or whether just like the pure people or whether just like the pure achievement of just persisting alone. achievement of just persisting alone. achievement of just persisting alone. >> I think there is like actual meaning in >> I think there is like actual meaning in >> I think there is like actual meaning in that. And so I think the idea of like that. And so I think the idea of like that. And so I think the idea of like everything happens for a reason. It's everything happens for a reason. It's everything happens for a reason. It's like a reason will be found but only you like a reason will be found but only you like a reason will be found but only you can find it. No one can tell you what it can find it. No one can tell you what it can find it. No one can tell you what it is and no one can tell you that it's is and no one can tell you that it's is and no one can tell you that it's okay. Like that's only yours and maybe okay. Like that's only yours and maybe okay. Like that's only yours and maybe it takes years. it takes years. it takes years. >> I appreciate that and the idea that >> I appreciate that and the idea that >> I appreciate that and the idea that there wasn't some predetermined reason there wasn't some predetermined reason there wasn't some predetermined reason or some reason that had to be the way. or some reason that had to be the way. or some reason that had to be the way. It was a a journey of discovery. It was a a journey of discovery. It was a a journey of discovery. >> Yeah. And I think some people think that >> Yeah. And I think some people think that >> Yeah. And I think some people think that and that's also like a beautiful story and that's also like a beautiful story and that's also like a beautiful story or a beautiful you know or a beautiful you know or a beautiful you know >> what for you was actually helpful as you >> what for you was actually helpful as you >> what for you was actually helpful as you just talked about the need for just talked about the need for just talked about the need for relationships, the need for meaning. relationships, the need for meaning. relationships, the need for meaning. What was useful to hear from your What was useful to hear from your What was useful to hear from your relationships at the time? relationships at the time? relationships at the time? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what do you find useful now? >> And what do you find useful now? >> And what do you find useful now? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And helpful. This isn't about other >> And helpful. This isn't about other >> And helpful. This isn't about other people actually, but this was a really people actually, but this was a really people actually, but this was a really helpful thing for me is helpful thing for me is helpful thing for me is um so Paul got sick and we were both um so Paul got sick and we were both um so Paul got sick and we were both doctors and there was something in that doctors and there was something in that doctors and there was something in that that was immensely helpful that was immensely helpful that was immensely helpful and obviously like the privilege and and obviously like the privilege and and obviously like the privilege and logistics and all of that kind of stuff logistics and all of that kind of stuff logistics and all of that kind of stuff that came out of like being a healthcare that came out of like being a healthcare that came out of like being a healthcare person and a doctor was very helpful. person and a doctor was very helpful. person and a doctor was very helpful. But the thing that was the most helpful But the thing that was the most helpful But the thing that was the most helpful was having spent years and years taking was having spent years and years taking was having spent years and years taking care of sick people and their families care of sick people and their families care of sick people and their families and thinking like terrible things can and thinking like terrible things can and thinking like terrible things can happen to wonderful people whether it's happen to wonderful people whether it's happen to wonderful people whether it's like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of cancer. And so when he was diagnosed cancer. And so when he was diagnosed cancer. And so when he was diagnosed like at one point I was like whatever like at one point I was like whatever like at one point I was like whatever you need to do to cope go for it. Like you need to do to cope go for it. Like you need to do to cope go for it. Like would you like to punch a wall? We have would you like to punch a wall? We have would you like to punch a wall? We have all these walls. Like they're all yours. all these walls. Like they're all yours. all these walls. Like they're all yours. And he was like I don't need to. And I And he was like I don't need to. And I And he was like I don't need to. And I was like, I don't need to either. was like, I don't need to either. was like, I don't need to either. >> Like what's that about? And I think it >> Like what's that about? And I think it >> Like what's that about? And I think it was kind of like, was kind of like, was kind of like, >> okay, turns out like it's our turn to >> okay, turns out like it's our turn to >> okay, turns out like it's our turn to like be the people who are doing this. like be the people who are doing this. like be the people who are doing this. So it was really helpful to sort of like So it was really helpful to sort of like So it was really helpful to sort of like have that perspective. And Paul in his have that perspective. And Paul in his have that perspective. And Paul in his writing wrote, you know, like people writing wrote, you know, like people writing wrote, you know, like people often ask, don't you ask why me? And he often ask, don't you ask why me? And he often ask, don't you ask why me? And he said, well, why not me? Which I think is said, well, why not me? Which I think is said, well, why not me? Which I think is really beautiful. Yeah. And in terms of really beautiful. Yeah. And in terms of really beautiful. Yeah. And in terms of like what was helpful for us in terms of like what was helpful for us in terms of like what was helpful for us in terms of coping, I felt like the most important coping, I felt like the most important coping, I felt like the most important thing was just to feel witnessed. I thing was just to feel witnessed. I thing was just to feel witnessed. I actually didn't need anyone to try to actually didn't need anyone to try to actually didn't need anyone to try to fix it, to try to like say something fix it, to try to like say something fix it, to try to like say something that was going to fix it or that it was that was going to fix it or that it was that was going to fix it or that it was okay. Like one of the best condolence okay. Like one of the best condolence okay. Like one of the best condolence cards I got after Paul died was it just cards I got after Paul died was it just cards I got after Paul died was it just said this sucks really big. And I was said this sucks really big. And I was said this sucks really big. And I was like oh so amazing. Like and it also like oh so amazing. Like and it also like oh so amazing. Like and it also wasn't like too flowery or too wasn't like too flowery or too wasn't like too flowery or too >> like perfect or whatever. It was just >> like perfect or whatever. It was just >> like perfect or whatever. It was just like this is how this person feels. This like this is how this person feels. This like this is how this person feels. This is definitely how I feel. Also, it's is definitely how I feel. Also, it's is definitely how I feel. Also, it's still funny. Like even when you're still funny. Like even when you're still funny. Like even when you're dying, you're still you, you know, like dying, you're still you, you know, like dying, you're still you, you know, like >> you're still funny. Like one thing that >> you're still funny. Like one thing that >> you're still funny. Like one thing that did that was really helpful for Paul did that was really helpful for Paul did that was really helpful for Paul actually when he was sick, you know, he actually when he was sick, you know, he actually when he was sick, you know, he was a 36 and 37year-old neurosurgeon, was a 36 and 37year-old neurosurgeon, was a 36 and 37year-old neurosurgeon, right? So he's used to being like like right? So he's used to being like like right? So he's used to being like like healthy, dominant, in charge, in healthy, dominant, in charge, in healthy, dominant, in charge, in control, and then like loses all of that control, and then like loses all of that control, and then like loses all of that in an instant. So when people would come in an instant. So when people would come in an instant. So when people would come to visit and hang out, they'd say like, to visit and hang out, they'd say like, to visit and hang out, they'd say like, "Okay, I'm coming to visit. Like, what "Okay, I'm coming to visit. Like, what "Okay, I'm coming to visit. Like, what can I do that's helpful?" And I was can I do that's helpful?" And I was can I do that's helpful?" And I was like, "Just come and hang out and like like, "Just come and hang out and like like, "Just come and hang out and like be just like be you. Like be funny. Like be just like be you. Like be funny. Like be just like be you. Like be funny. Like ask Paul for career advice, you know, if ask Paul for career advice, you know, if ask Paul for career advice, you know, if that's what you would do anyway. Like that's what you would do anyway. Like that's what you would do anyway. Like just because he's dying like doesn't just because he's dying like doesn't just because he's dying like doesn't mean he doesn't want to know what's mean he doesn't want to know what's mean he doesn't want to know what's going on with you. He's not like going on with you. He's not like going on with you. He's not like radioactive. He's not different. You radioactive. He's not different. You radioactive. He's not different. You know, I think illness can be so know, I think illness can be so know, I think illness can be so flattening. And it's like people get flattening. And it's like people get flattening. And it's like people get sick and it's like humor zips out of the sick and it's like humor zips out of the sick and it's like humor zips out of the room. Like sexuality zips out of the room. Like sexuality zips out of the room. Like sexuality zips out of the room and like you're just like I'm still room and like you're just like I'm still room and like you're just like I'm still me. Like I'm still me just the same and me. Like I'm still me just the same and me. Like I'm still me just the same and and losing all of these abilities but and losing all of these abilities but and losing all of these abilities but also still have all these capacities. So also still have all these capacities. So also still have all these capacities. So I think just like making room for I think just like making room for I think just like making room for people's full self and people to be like people's full self and people to be like people's full self and people to be like agentic and be if that's a word be an agentic and be if that's a word be an agentic and be if that's a word be an agent agent agent >> and like be a full person. >> and like be a full person. >> and like be a full person. >> I think we all lose our powers when we >> I think we all lose our powers when we >> I think we all lose our powers when we love someone and they lose someone. love someone and they lose someone. love someone and they lose someone. >> Totally. And I think for a lot of people >> Totally. And I think for a lot of people >> Totally. And I think for a lot of people listening and watching, I think listening and watching, I think listening and watching, I think >> a lot of people become distant. >> a lot of people become distant. >> a lot of people become distant. >> Totally. Cuz you don't really know what >> Totally. Cuz you don't really know what >> Totally. Cuz you don't really know what to do. Yeah. And I think like showing up to do. Yeah. And I think like showing up to do. Yeah. And I think like showing up is half the thing. And then also it's is half the thing. And then also it's is half the thing. And then also it's like I do think there's something to like I do think there's something to like I do think there's something to like being specific, you know, like like being specific, you know, like like being specific, you know, like people often say like, "Let me know if people often say like, "Let me know if people often say like, "Let me know if there's any way you can help." And you there's any way you can help." And you there's any way you can help." And you really mean it. really mean it. really mean it. >> And I've done that. But I think when >> And I've done that. But I think when >> And I've done that. But I think when you're the sick person, it's like you you're the sick person, it's like you you're the sick person, it's like you are quite overwhelmed. And so it is are quite overwhelmed. And so it is are quite overwhelmed. And so it is useful to just like keep offering a useful to just like keep offering a useful to just like keep offering a little thing with no pressure. Like I little thing with no pressure. Like I little thing with no pressure. Like I had some friends whose baby was in the had some friends whose baby was in the had some friends whose baby was in the hospital and the husband was like the hospital and the husband was like the hospital and the husband was like the best thing anyone ever did for us was best thing anyone ever did for us was best thing anyone ever did for us was say like I'm at the mall next door say like I'm at the mall next door say like I'm at the mall next door getting a burger. Like what do you want getting a burger. Like what do you want getting a burger. Like what do you want on yours? I'll drop it off in 20. And on yours? I'll drop it off in 20. And on yours? I'll drop it off in 20. And they were just like the works. Thanks. they were just like the works. Thanks. they were just like the works. Thanks. And then like they have to talk to the And then like they have to talk to the And then like they have to talk to the person like just like you know that kind person like just like you know that kind person like just like you know that kind of stuff. Hey like do you need of stuff. Hey like do you need of stuff. Hey like do you need babysitting this week? Like let me know. babysitting this week? Like let me know. babysitting this week? Like let me know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm dropping off food. Do you want >> Like I'm dropping off food. Do you want >> Like I'm dropping off food. Do you want me to ring the the doorbell or just let me to ring the the doorbell or just let me to ring the the doorbell or just let you know? Just text you when it's there. you know? Just text you when it's there. you know? Just text you when it's there. just like something that has no pressure just like something that has no pressure just like something that has no pressure but also is like present and keep doing but also is like present and keep doing but also is like present and keep doing it. it. it. >> What do you think most people >> What do you think most people >> What do you think most people misinterpret about grief? misinterpret about grief? misinterpret about grief? >> One thing is like, oh, if I say >> One thing is like, oh, if I say >> One thing is like, oh, if I say something, I'm going to remind her or if something, I'm going to remind her or if something, I'm going to remind her or if I say what if I say something and I make I say what if I say something and I make I say what if I say something and I make her sad. And I think when you're a her sad. And I think when you're a her sad. And I think when you're a grieving person, you're thinking about grieving person, you're thinking about grieving person, you're thinking about it all the time. It's present for you it all the time. It's present for you it all the time. It's present for you all the time. And so I think if somebody all the time. And so I think if somebody all the time. And so I think if somebody says like, "Hey, I heard what happened. says like, "Hey, I heard what happened. says like, "Hey, I heard what happened. I've been thinking about you." you know, I've been thinking about you." you know, I've been thinking about you." you know, hey, I heard what happened. Like, how hey, I heard what happened. Like, how hey, I heard what happened. Like, how are you doing today? Um, is there are you doing today? Um, is there are you doing today? Um, is there anything you can do? It doesn't remind anything you can do? It doesn't remind anything you can do? It doesn't remind you. It just makes you feel seen and you. It just makes you feel seen and you. It just makes you feel seen and connected at a time when like it's connected at a time when like it's connected at a time when like it's really hard to feel connected. My mom really hard to feel connected. My mom really hard to feel connected. My mom said this amazing thing when we were said this amazing thing when we were said this amazing thing when we were growing up. She used to say, "When in growing up. She used to say, "When in growing up. She used to say, "When in doubt, describe." And it basically meant doubt, describe." And it basically meant doubt, describe." And it basically meant like even if you don't know what's like even if you don't know what's like even if you don't know what's happening to for you or even if you happening to for you or even if you happening to for you or even if you don't know the perfect perfect thing to don't know the perfect perfect thing to don't know the perfect perfect thing to say, like you can just describe what's say, like you can just describe what's say, like you can just describe what's going on. So, you can just say like, "I going on. So, you can just say like, "I going on. So, you can just say like, "I heard that so and so died. It's really heard that so and so died. It's really heard that so and so died. It's really sad. I've been thinking about you so sad. I've been thinking about you so sad. I've been thinking about you so much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to say and I don't, but I want you to know say and I don't, but I want you to know say and I don't, but I want you to know I love you." I love you." I love you." >> And like that. Doesn't that sound so >> And like that. Doesn't that sound so >> And like that. Doesn't that sound so cozy and nice? And it's like they didn't cozy and nice? And it's like they didn't cozy and nice? And it's like they didn't have to say a special perfect have to say a special perfect have to say a special perfect >> wise thing they just described, >> wise thing they just described, >> wise thing they just described, >> you know? So, I think that's also really >> you know? So, I think that's also really >> you know? So, I think that's also really helpful. helpful. helpful. >> Describing what you're going through is >> Describing what you're going through is >> Describing what you're going through is sometimes better than trying to say the sometimes better than trying to say the sometimes better than trying to say the perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah. perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah. perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah. Absolutely. To just be like, "This is Absolutely. To just be like, "This is Absolutely. To just be like, "This is the worst day ever." the worst day ever." the worst day ever." >> Is this hard? >> Is this hard? >> Is this hard? >> Yeah. This is hard. Yeah. This is This >> Yeah. This is hard. Yeah. This is This >> Yeah. This is hard. Yeah. This is This is really difficult. is really difficult. is really difficult. >> Is so much more I don't know. There's >> Is so much more I don't know. There's >> Is so much more I don't know. There's something about it that opens up the something about it that opens up the something about it that opens up the heart rather than closes it. heart rather than closes it. heart rather than closes it. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Yeah. Just It's almost acceptance. >> Yeah. Just It's almost acceptance. >> Yeah. Just It's almost acceptance. >> Yes. Can I just come sit with you? This >> Yes. Can I just come sit with you? This >> Yes. Can I just come sit with you? This looks so hard. looks so hard. looks so hard. >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. To admit that >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. To admit that >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. To admit that to ourselves. That's what we struggle to to ourselves. That's what we struggle to to ourselves. That's what we struggle to do. What was I've It's been really do. What was I've It's been really do. What was I've It's been really interesting as I was preparing for this interesting as I was preparing for this interesting as I was preparing for this interview. I've had friends who've I interview. I've had friends who've I interview. I've had friends who've I mean I've lost friends to cancer over mean I've lost friends to cancer over mean I've lost friends to cancer over the last few years. I've lost spiritual the last few years. I've lost spiritual the last few years. I've lost spiritual mentors. I've lost friends. mentors. I've lost friends. mentors. I've lost friends. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And different scenarios, but I had a >> And different scenarios, but I had a >> And different scenarios, but I had a friend recently who is going through it friend recently who is going through it friend recently who is going through it in the States. in the States. in the States. >> His partner's a doctor, but he's not. >> His partner's a doctor, but he's not. >> His partner's a doctor, but he's not. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And his partner >> And his partner >> And his partner wasn't as supportive as he wanted them wasn't as supportive as he wanted them wasn't as supportive as he wanted them to be. Ah, to be. Ah, to be. Ah, >> because to him cancer felt like the big >> because to him cancer felt like the big >> because to him cancer felt like the big C word that was scary from the moment he C word that was scary from the moment he C word that was scary from the moment he heard it. But her take was you're going heard it. But her take was you're going heard it. But her take was you're going to be fine. They're going to figure it to be fine. They're going to figure it to be fine. They're going to figure it out. out. out. >> And I was wondering what were the kinds >> And I was wondering what were the kinds >> And I was wondering what were the kinds of conversations you both had as both of conversations you both had as both of conversations you both had as both being doctors and what was the most being doctors and what was the most being doctors and what was the most important conversation you think you had important conversation you think you had important conversation you think you had at that time? The way Paul got diagnosed at that time? The way Paul got diagnosed at that time? The way Paul got diagnosed was um he'd been getting sicker and was um he'd been getting sicker and was um he'd been getting sicker and sicker and then he ultimately got the sicker and then he ultimately got the sicker and then he ultimately got the news that he had a chest X-ray that news that he had a chest X-ray that news that he had a chest X-ray that essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like dense with tumors. We mean, it was like dense with tumors. We mean, it was like dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. You know, we're both knew what it meant. You know, we're both knew what it meant. You know, we're going to the hospital tomorrow for for a going to the hospital tomorrow for for a going to the hospital tomorrow for for a CT scan. It's going to show, you know, CT scan. It's going to show, you know, CT scan. It's going to show, you know, metastatic cancer. And it was so metastatic cancer. And it was so metastatic cancer. And it was so interesting because as we were packing interesting because as we were packing interesting because as we were packing for this hospital stay, he was going to for this hospital stay, he was going to for this hospital stay, he was going to go and get expedated workup. I was go and get expedated workup. I was go and get expedated workup. I was packing like practical things like phone packing like practical things like phone packing like practical things like phone charger, insurance card, like fuzzy charger, insurance card, like fuzzy charger, insurance card, like fuzzy socks or whatever. And he packed books. socks or whatever. And he packed books. socks or whatever. And he packed books. It was so interesting. He packed um It was so interesting. He packed um It was so interesting. He packed um Being in Time by Haidiger and Mirror Being in Time by Haidiger and Mirror Being in Time by Haidiger and Mirror Christianity by CS Lewis and then a Christianity by CS Lewis and then a Christianity by CS Lewis and then a novel called Cancer Ward by Souls Souls novel called Cancer Ward by Souls Souls novel called Cancer Ward by Souls Souls Nitsson. Nitsson. Nitsson. And it was this sort of like immediate And it was this sort of like immediate And it was this sort of like immediate recognition of like the doctor stuff is recognition of like the doctor stuff is recognition of like the doctor stuff is not going to help me. like I need to not going to help me. like I need to not going to help me. like I need to turn to words and literature and or I turn to words and literature and or I turn to words and literature and or I just need to turn to like the human just need to turn to like the human just need to turn to like the human experience of this and for him that was experience of this and for him that was experience of this and for him that was like oh I'm back to literature. like oh I'm back to literature. like oh I'm back to literature. >> So that was really interesting. I think >> So that was really interesting. I think >> So that was really interesting. I think one of the most important conversations one of the most important conversations one of the most important conversations was right away which was we ended up was right away which was we ended up was right away which was we ended up looking at the CT scan ourselves and looking at the CT scan ourselves and looking at the CT scan ourselves and sort of like wordlessly absorbing this sort of like wordlessly absorbing this sort of like wordlessly absorbing this diagnosis of like it was like looking at diagnosis of like it was like looking at diagnosis of like it was like looking at a patient's scan and then you're like oh a patient's scan and then you're like oh a patient's scan and then you're like oh my gosh it's you like it's you. And then my gosh it's you like it's you. And then my gosh it's you like it's you. And then we like got into the hospital bed we like got into the hospital bed we like got into the hospital bed together and then he said, "I want you together and then he said, "I want you together and then he said, "I want you to remarry to remarry to remarry before we almost talked about anything, before we almost talked about anything, before we almost talked about anything, which was really beautiful, like which was really beautiful, like which was really beautiful, like beautiful beautiful beautiful and felt so sort of like shocking at the and felt so sort of like shocking at the and felt so sort of like shocking at the time." But then there's like all these time." But then there's like all these time." But then there's like all these layers to that. Like the biggest one is layers to that. Like the biggest one is layers to that. Like the biggest one is like I love you into a future where I like I love you into a future where I like I love you into a future where I will not be there. Like that's amazing. will not be there. Like that's amazing. will not be there. Like that's amazing. That's such a like an amazing kind of That's such a like an amazing kind of That's such a like an amazing kind of love and people have it, right? People love and people have it, right? People love and people have it, right? People have it for their children. People have have it for their children. People have have it for their children. People have it for their SP. It's like I love you it for their SP. It's like I love you it for their SP. It's like I love you forever independent of my existence, forever independent of my existence, forever independent of my existence, right? But he also was saying with that right? But he also was saying with that right? But he also was saying with that sentence like it was so stark that it sentence like it was so stark that it sentence like it was so stark that it was kind of like, okay, I'm going to go was kind of like, okay, I'm going to go was kind of like, okay, I'm going to go I'm going to go there immediately and I'm going to go there immediately and I'm going to go there immediately and then implicitly tell you like we can then implicitly tell you like we can then implicitly tell you like we can talk about anything. And that was really talk about anything. And that was really talk about anything. And that was really helpful, like super super helpful. And I helpful, like super super helpful. And I helpful, like super super helpful. And I think like the battle metaphor for think like the battle metaphor for think like the battle metaphor for cancer is so pervasive. Like it started cancer is so pervasive. Like it started cancer is so pervasive. Like it started with like Nixon's war on cancer, but with like Nixon's war on cancer, but with like Nixon's war on cancer, but then now it extends to like individual then now it extends to like individual then now it extends to like individual level. Like we'll beat it, we'll fight level. Like we'll beat it, we'll fight level. Like we'll beat it, we'll fight it, we're going to win. it, we're going to win. it, we're going to win. >> Surviving. >> Surviving. >> Surviving. >> Yeah. Surviving. And I think that >> Yeah. Surviving. And I think that >> Yeah. Surviving. And I think that metaphor is so flimsy, you know? metaphor is so flimsy, you know? metaphor is so flimsy, you know? >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Like it's sort of like there's winners >> Like it's sort of like there's winners >> Like it's sort of like there's winners and losers and there's like one thing and losers and there's like one thing and losers and there's like one thing you're supposed to do here and it's just you're supposed to do here and it's just you're supposed to do here and it's just like survive at all costs. And I think like survive at all costs. And I think like survive at all costs. And I think there's like when you survey people with there's like when you survey people with there's like when you survey people with cancer, there's like so many things cancer, there's like so many things cancer, there's like so many things people hope for. It's like people hope people hope for. It's like people hope people hope for. It's like people hope for dignity. People hope for like for dignity. People hope for like for dignity. People hope for like functionality as long as possible. functionality as long as possible. functionality as long as possible. People hope that their loved ones will People hope that their loved ones will People hope that their loved ones will be okay. I don't know. There was sort of be okay. I don't know. There was sort of be okay. I don't know. There was sort of just like this paniply of hopes just like this paniply of hopes just like this paniply of hopes that I think like we knew to like that I think like we knew to like that I think like we knew to like sidestep the battle metaphor, which was sidestep the battle metaphor, which was sidestep the battle metaphor, which was really helpful. And then I think part of really helpful. And then I think part of really helpful. And then I think part of that was just we knew how sick he was. that was just we knew how sick he was. that was just we knew how sick he was. >> We couldn't get away from it. We could >> We couldn't get away from it. We could >> We couldn't get away from it. We could not escape like understanding how sick not escape like understanding how sick not escape like understanding how sick he was, which was like the worst part, he was, which was like the worst part, he was, which was like the worst part, but in some ways the best part but in some ways the best part but in some ways the best part >> cuz then we could decide what to do. >> cuz then we could decide what to do. >> cuz then we could decide what to do. >> What I'm hearing you say is that it's it >> What I'm hearing you say is that it's it >> What I'm hearing you say is that it's it wasn't the the doctor conversation or wasn't the the doctor conversation or wasn't the the doctor conversation or the medical conversation because that the medical conversation because that the medical conversation because that was almost accepting what was in front was almost accepting what was in front was almost accepting what was in front of you. of you. of you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it was the conversations that you >> But it was the conversations that you >> But it was the conversations that you both allowed each other to have beyond both allowed each other to have beyond both allowed each other to have beyond the knowledge that you both were aware the knowledge that you both were aware the knowledge that you both were aware of. of. of. >> Like luckily and at the same time like >> Like luckily and at the same time like >> Like luckily and at the same time like I'm making it sound easy and it like I'm making it sound easy and it like I'm making it sound easy and it like totally was. It was so so painful and totally was. It was so so painful and totally was. It was so so painful and like so confusing and just so like it like so confusing and just so like it like so confusing and just so like it took months months for us to like even took months months for us to like even took months months for us to like even feel like we had our feet on the ground, feel like we had our feet on the ground, feel like we had our feet on the ground, you know, you know, you know, >> and then things are like it's a >> and then things are like it's a >> and then things are like it's a constantly shifting landscape, you know, constantly shifting landscape, you know, constantly shifting landscape, you know, >> and he's going through his emotions, >> and he's going through his emotions, >> and he's going through his emotions, you're going through yours. Like you're going through yours. Like you're going through yours. Like >> I can't imagine that they align every >> I can't imagine that they align every >> I can't imagine that they align every day, every moment. Totally. day, every moment. Totally. day, every moment. Totally. >> But I wonder about just the work that >> But I wonder about just the work that >> But I wonder about just the work that you're doing as well. And as we kind of you're doing as well. And as we kind of you're doing as well. And as we kind of navigate this conversation, I'm like, I navigate this conversation, I'm like, I navigate this conversation, I'm like, I know that in my life, when I lose know that in my life, when I lose know that in my life, when I lose someone I'm close to, especially when someone I'm close to, especially when someone I'm close to, especially when they're around the same age, there's they're around the same age, there's they're around the same age, there's something different than when I lose something different than when I lose something different than when I lose someone older. someone older. someone older. Because at least when someone's older or Because at least when someone's older or Because at least when someone's older or at an age that feels appropriate at an age that feels appropriate at an age that feels appropriate >> for loss, there's that story that you >> for loss, there's that story that you >> for loss, there's that story that you can tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of can tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of can tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of my monk friends. He was still a monk my monk friends. He was still a monk my monk friends. He was still a monk when he passed away. We lived in the when he passed away. We lived in the when he passed away. We lived in the monastery together, but he passed away a monastery together, but he passed away a monastery together, but he passed away a few years back now and he died of stage few years back now and he died of stage few years back now and he died of stage 4 colon cancer. 4 colon cancer. 4 colon cancer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he was like maybe 2 years older than >> And he was like maybe 2 years older than >> And he was like maybe 2 years older than me. me. me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I remember watching him through the >> And I remember watching him through the >> And I remember watching him through the whole journey, present with him, talking whole journey, present with him, talking whole journey, present with him, talking to him on the phone, seeing him when I to him on the phone, seeing him when I to him on the phone, seeing him when I could, when I went back and visited him. could, when I went back and visited him. could, when I went back and visited him. And I almost feel like I learned so much And I almost feel like I learned so much And I almost feel like I learned so much more from him about life than I've ever more from him about life than I've ever more from him about life than I've ever taught or known. Yeah. taught or known. Yeah. taught or known. Yeah. >> And I wanted to know like what did being >> And I wanted to know like what did being >> And I wanted to know like what did being so close to death teach you about life so close to death teach you about life so close to death teach you about life and living? and living? and living? >> Yeah. It's hard to separate actually >> Yeah. It's hard to separate actually >> Yeah. It's hard to separate actually like being so close to death and being like being so close to death and being like being so close to death and being so close to Paul [laughter] so close to Paul [laughter] so close to Paul [laughter] because it was like so embodied, you because it was like so embodied, you because it was like so embodied, you know? And it's funny. It's like you're know? And it's funny. It's like you're know? And it's funny. It's like you're talking about your friend dying and like talking about your friend dying and like talking about your friend dying and like what a surprise that is when someone what a surprise that is when someone what a surprise that is when someone young dies young dies young dies >> and it's like the way I've ended up like >> and it's like the way I've ended up like >> and it's like the way I've ended up like conceiving of it is sort of like turns conceiving of it is sort of like turns conceiving of it is sort of like turns out that's what was going to happen. out that's what was going to happen. out that's what was going to happen. Like that helps me a lot actually. I Like that helps me a lot actually. I Like that helps me a lot actually. I think like being so close to someone think like being so close to someone think like being so close to someone who's dying who's dying who's dying actually taught me something about dying actually taught me something about dying actually taught me something about dying which is that until you die you're which is that until you die you're which is that until you die you're alive. You know like what happened for alive. You know like what happened for alive. You know like what happened for Paul was like he got he was a Paul was like he got he was a Paul was like he got he was a neurosurgeon got diagnosed with cancer neurosurgeon got diagnosed with cancer neurosurgeon got diagnosed with cancer worked for a year as a neurosurgeon. worked for a year as a neurosurgeon. worked for a year as a neurosurgeon. Like this is who I am. This is what I Like this is who I am. This is what I Like this is who I am. This is what I care about. Then I got pregnant during care about. Then I got pregnant during care about. Then I got pregnant during that year on purpose. Then he had sort that year on purpose. Then he had sort that year on purpose. Then he had sort of serendipitously of serendipitously of serendipitously and because he was a beautiful writer and because he was a beautiful writer and because he was a beautiful writer transitioned to writing first essays and transitioned to writing first essays and transitioned to writing first essays and then a memoir. And so he sort of like then a memoir. And so he sort of like then a memoir. And so he sort of like built a new vocation during the time built a new vocation during the time built a new vocation during the time that he was sick. And it's like he was that he was sick. And it's like he was that he was sick. And it's like he was so sick and so like debilitated and so sick and so like debilitated and so sick and so like debilitated and still like physically still and like one still like physically still and like one still like physically still and like one you know he was ill and at the same time you know he was ill and at the same time you know he was ill and at the same time he was so like engaged in what he was he was so like engaged in what he was he was so like engaged in what he was doing like so just sort of like doing like so just sort of like doing like so just sort of like intellectually engaged in the world of intellectually engaged in the world of intellectually engaged in the world of ideas and in the world of relationships ideas and in the world of relationships ideas and in the world of relationships too like being a new dad. And it was too like being a new dad. And it was too like being a new dad. And it was just really interesting to to see like just really interesting to to see like just really interesting to to see like one of the book reviews of Paul's book one of the book reviews of Paul's book one of the book reviews of Paul's book was by this doctor named Gavin Francis was by this doctor named Gavin Francis was by this doctor named Gavin Francis and he wrote like this book is and he wrote like this book is and he wrote like this book is unforgettable or this book is something unforgettable or this book is something unforgettable or this book is something it is crackling with life. And I just it is crackling with life. And I just it is crackling with life. And I just remember thinking like oh how amazing to remember thinking like oh how amazing to remember thinking like oh how amazing to be crackling with life when you're be crackling with life when you're be crackling with life when you're dying. And I think the same thing is dying. And I think the same thing is dying. And I think the same thing is true with aging. The same thing is true true with aging. The same thing is true true with aging. The same thing is true with like disability or patient. It's with like disability or patient. It's with like disability or patient. It's like there's this idea that like, you like there's this idea that like, you like there's this idea that like, you know, something about like a human know, something about like a human know, something about like a human identity is taken from you when you're identity is taken from you when you're identity is taken from you when you're aging. But it's like some of my favorite aging. But it's like some of my favorite aging. But it's like some of my favorite people are little old ladies who are so people are little old ladies who are so people are little old ladies who are so giggly and hilarious and like not afraid giggly and hilarious and like not afraid giggly and hilarious and like not afraid of anything, you know, and like I used of anything, you know, and like I used of anything, you know, and like I used to think like little old lady and now I to think like little old lady and now I to think like little old lady and now I think like gosh like Spitfire who like think like gosh like Spitfire who like think like gosh like Spitfire who like knows everything and like you know knows everything and like you know knows everything and like you know nothing shocks her. And so I think the nothing shocks her. And so I think the nothing shocks her. And so I think the thing it taught me also as a doctor, you thing it taught me also as a doctor, you thing it taught me also as a doctor, you know, like just how totally human like know, like just how totally human like know, like just how totally human like everyone is, you know, and I think when everyone is, you know, and I think when everyone is, you know, and I think when you're at work as a doctor, there's so you're at work as a doctor, there's so you're at work as a doctor, there's so much dehumanization. It's like you're at much dehumanization. It's like you're at much dehumanization. It's like you're at work, you're rushing around, you're work, you're rushing around, you're work, you're rushing around, you're hungry, you have to go to the bathroom, hungry, you have to go to the bathroom, hungry, you have to go to the bathroom, you have to get to the O. And so it's you have to get to the O. And so it's you have to get to the O. And so it's like all of the families like sleeping like all of the families like sleeping like all of the families like sleeping on the sofas outside the ICU are sort of on the sofas outside the ICU are sort of on the sofas outside the ICU are sort of the furniture. like they're the the furniture. like they're the the furniture. like they're the furniture at work because you're doing furniture at work because you're doing furniture at work because you're doing your job, your job, your job, >> but also it's like you're constantly >> but also it's like you're constantly >> but also it's like you're constantly toggling between like this is the worst toggling between like this is the worst toggling between like this is the worst day of this person's life and I have 36 day of this person's life and I have 36 day of this person's life and I have 36 minutes with them. And then in answer to minutes with them. And then in answer to minutes with them. And then in answer to your question for real about like what your question for real about like what your question for real about like what can dying teach us about being alive and can dying teach us about being alive and can dying teach us about being alive and living? Dying is like the one of the living? Dying is like the one of the living? Dying is like the one of the most human things we do. It's like it's most human things we do. It's like it's most human things we do. It's like it's too big for any model. It's too big for too big for any model. It's too big for too big for any model. It's too big for a medical model. It's too big for like a a medical model. It's too big for like a a medical model. It's too big for like a lot of religious models. It's not a lot of religious models. It's not a lot of religious models. It's not a medical event. It's like a human thing. medical event. It's like a human thing. medical event. It's like a human thing. Frank Ostacees, he's like a Buddhist Frank Ostacees, he's like a Buddhist Frank Ostacees, he's like a Buddhist teacher who founded Zen Hospice in San teacher who founded Zen Hospice in San teacher who founded Zen Hospice in San Francisco. So gorgeous. He's so Francisco. So gorgeous. He's so Francisco. So gorgeous. He's so beautiful. And like he talks about how beautiful. And like he talks about how beautiful. And like he talks about how dying is all about relationships. So dying is all about relationships. So dying is all about relationships. So interesting. It's like your relationship interesting. It's like your relationship interesting. It's like your relationship to yourself, your relationship to people to yourself, your relationship to people to yourself, your relationship to people you love, your relationship to like you love, your relationship to like you love, your relationship to like holiness, whatever that would be. He's holiness, whatever that would be. He's holiness, whatever that would be. He's like it explodes every kind of like it explodes every kind of like it explodes every kind of relationship. And then Ira Bay who's relationship. And then Ira Bay who's relationship. And then Ira Bay who's this like really beautiful doctor um this like really beautiful doctor um this like really beautiful doctor um here actually talks about like having here actually talks about like having here actually talks about like having worked with a lot of people who are worked with a lot of people who are worked with a lot of people who are dying and then like you know what they dying and then like you know what they dying and then like you know what they have to teach to people who are living have to teach to people who are living have to teach to people who are living and he's like it's two big questions and he's like it's two big questions and he's like it's two big questions that he uncovers and he says what would that he uncovers and he says what would that he uncovers and he says what would be left undone or unsaid if I died now be left undone or unsaid if I died now be left undone or unsaid if I died now you know like how can I live most fully you know like how can I live most fully you know like how can I live most fully in the time I have left you know and I in the time I have left you know and I in the time I have left you know and I think there is sort of a like think there is sort of a like think there is sort of a like transcendence in just like death is not transcendence in just like death is not transcendence in just like death is not like something that happens like at the like something that happens like at the like something that happens like at the end of the road. It's like it is here end of the road. It's like it is here end of the road. It's like it is here all the time. It is something you can all the time. It is something you can all the time. It is something you can like tap into like finitude or like tap into like finitude or like tap into like finitude or transcendence like even like a traffic transcendence like even like a traffic transcendence like even like a traffic jam and you're just like road rage. I'm jam and you're just like road rage. I'm jam and you're just like road rage. I'm going where I'm going. I hate these going where I'm going. I hate these going where I'm going. I hate these people. They're in my way. Like it's people. They're in my way. Like it's people. They're in my way. Like it's like no like you are the people. You are like no like you are the people. You are like no like you are the people. You are the traffic. the traffic. the traffic. >> Everyone in this traffic jam like was a >> Everyone in this traffic jam like was a >> Everyone in this traffic jam like was a tiny baby like will be on a deathbed has tiny baby like will be on a deathbed has tiny baby like will be on a deathbed has someone who loves them who will be like someone who loves them who will be like someone who loves them who will be like bereft when they're gone. like God bereft when they're gone. like God bereft when they're gone. like God willing, right? And so like suddenly willing, right? And so like suddenly willing, right? And so like suddenly zooming out to that, you're like, who zooming out to that, you're like, who zooming out to that, you're like, who cares about the traffic? Everything's cares about the traffic? Everything's cares about the traffic? Everything's beautiful. So I don't know. I think beautiful. So I don't know. I think beautiful. So I don't know. I think there's like a real like luminosity there's like a real like luminosity there's like a real like luminosity that can be found that can be found that can be found >> like when someone's dying >> like when someone's dying >> like when someone's dying >> and then at the same time like traffic >> and then at the same time like traffic >> and then at the same time like traffic jams suck and like jams suck and like jams suck and like >> you know when someone's dying you also >> you know when someone's dying you also >> you know when someone's dying you also have to like make dinner and you know have to like make dinner and you know have to like make dinner and you know pick up the prescription. But I think pick up the prescription. But I think pick up the prescription. But I think it's like a constant toggle between like it's like a constant toggle between like it's like a constant toggle between like >> zooming in and zooming out. >> zooming in and zooming out. >> zooming in and zooming out. >> [ __ ] and transcendence, you know, >> [ __ ] and transcendence, you know, >> [ __ ] and transcendence, you know, which is like hopefully what we can all which is like hopefully what we can all which is like hopefully what we can all do like every day. do like every day. do like every day. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is zooming in, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is zooming in, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is zooming in, zooming out. And as you said, Yeah. Like zooming out. And as you said, Yeah. Like zooming out. And as you said, Yeah. Like for a few months now, my team and I have for a few months now, my team and I have for a few months now, my team and I have been creating these been creating these been creating these >> zoomed out versions when you were >> zoomed out versions when you were >> zoomed out versions when you were describing that. Yeah. describing that. Yeah. describing that. Yeah. >> Of almost like city crosswalks, uh, >> Of almost like city crosswalks, uh, >> Of almost like city crosswalks, uh, parks. Yeah. And we just we place these parks. Yeah. And we just we place these parks. Yeah. And we just we place these little thoughts on what everyone's going little thoughts on what everyone's going little thoughts on what everyone's going through. through. through. >> What? And and people are like moving >> What? And and people are like moving >> What? And and people are like moving around in the park or sometimes it's around in the park or sometimes it's around in the park or sometimes it's >> you like ascribe like a story. Correct. >> you like ascribe like a story. Correct. >> you like ascribe like a story. Correct. >> Oh, I play that game with my kids. >> Oh, I play that game with my kids. >> Oh, I play that game with my kids. >> Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, no way. Tell me about >> Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, no way. Tell me about >> Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, no way. Tell me about that. that. that. >> We just play that like at dinner and >> We just play that like at dinner and >> We just play that like at dinner and stuff. We're out to dinner. I don't know stuff. We're out to dinner. I don't know stuff. We're out to dinner. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. We'll be like, "What are they talking We'll be like, "What are they talking We'll be like, "What are they talking about?" And then you'll be like, "Oh, about?" And then you'll be like, "Oh, about?" And then you'll be like, "Oh, this person just walked by like his this person just walked by like his this person just walked by like his dog's name." Sometimes it's just sort of dog's name." Sometimes it's just sort of dog's name." Sometimes it's just sort of like silly. It's like his dog's name is like silly. It's like his dog's name is like silly. It's like his dog's name is Peanut. And just make it up. But Peanut. And just make it up. But Peanut. And just make it up. But sometimes it's like, sometimes it's like, sometimes it's like, >> "Oh, like do you think he's just gone >> "Oh, like do you think he's just gone >> "Oh, like do you think he's just gone through a breakup? Like look at his through a breakup? Like look at his through a breakup? Like look at his face." like just we just sort of make it face." like just we just sort of make it face." like just we just sort of make it up like as a way to pass the time but it up like as a way to pass the time but it up like as a way to pass the time but it is sort of like an empathy game. is sort of like an empathy game. is sort of like an empathy game. >> Absolutely. Yeah. So we're doing exactly >> Absolutely. Yeah. So we're doing exactly >> Absolutely. Yeah. So we're doing exactly the same thing except creating it on the same thing except creating it on the same thing except creating it on social media and sharing them as stories social media and sharing them as stories social media and sharing them as stories for people to zoom out a little bit and for people to zoom out a little bit and for people to zoom out a little bit and so we'll take different scenes whether so we'll take different scenes whether so we'll take different scenes whether it's an airport or whether it's a park it's an airport or whether it's a park it's an airport or whether it's a park or whether it's a crosswalk and we'll or whether it's a crosswalk and we'll or whether it's a crosswalk and we'll have lots of people walking around and have lots of people walking around and have lots of people walking around and we just put little stories on on top of we just put little stories on on top of we just put little stories on on top of them. I love thinking that way them. I love thinking that way them. I love thinking that way >> because I always know that if I cut >> because I always know that if I cut >> because I always know that if I cut someone off in traffic, I feel I have a someone off in traffic, I feel I have a someone off in traffic, I feel I have a good reason. good reason. good reason. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But if someone cuts me off in traffic, >> But if someone cuts me off in traffic, >> But if someone cuts me off in traffic, >> the fundamental attribution, they're an >> the fundamental attribution, they're an >> the fundamental attribution, they're an [ __ ] I [laughter] have a great [ __ ] I [laughter] have a great [ __ ] I [laughter] have a great reason. reason. reason. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, what are you trying to show? Are you >> So, what are you trying to show? Are you >> So, what are you trying to show? Are you just trying to show like everyone has just trying to show like everyone has just trying to show like everyone has like a rich life as rich as yours? like a rich life as rich as yours? like a rich life as rich as yours? >> Yeah. And we're not alone in our >> Yeah. And we're not alone in our >> Yeah. And we're not alone in our suffering. suffering. suffering. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, you may feel like you're suffering >> So, you may feel like you're suffering >> So, you may feel like you're suffering right now. You're definitely not alone. right now. You're definitely not alone. right now. You're definitely not alone. >> Right. that everyone you meet may simply >> Right. that everyone you meet may simply >> Right. that everyone you meet may simply be projecting their own suffering onto be projecting their own suffering onto be projecting their own suffering onto you and it isn't a reflection of who you you and it isn't a reflection of who you you and it isn't a reflection of who you are. are. are. >> Oh, totally. >> Oh, totally. >> Oh, totally. >> And everyone has a story. >> And everyone has a story. >> And everyone has a story. >> Everyone has a thing. >> Everyone has a thing. >> Everyone has a thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so just trying to help us, >> And so just trying to help us, >> And so just trying to help us, >> I guess, transcend. But then I like your >> I guess, transcend. But then I like your >> I guess, transcend. But then I like your version of it's still [ __ ] traffic. version of it's still [ __ ] traffic. version of it's still [ __ ] traffic. [laughter] So I need to make one of that [laughter] So I need to make one of that [laughter] So I need to make one of that one. So I need I think we need to end it one. So I need I think we need to end it one. So I need I think we need to end it with that. I think you found the perfect with that. I think you found the perfect with that. I think you found the perfect >> end. Cool. It's so cool. I can't wait to >> end. Cool. It's so cool. I can't wait to >> end. Cool. It's so cool. I can't wait to see that. see that. see that. >> J. No, as you're saying, it was just I >> J. No, as you're saying, it was just I >> J. No, as you're saying, it was just I it's it's helpful hearing it from you. I it's it's helpful hearing it from you. I it's it's helpful hearing it from you. I as you're answering these questions, I'm as you're answering these questions, I'm as you're answering these questions, I'm so honestly like it it's stirring so so honestly like it it's stirring so so honestly like it it's stirring so much within me because when you sit down much within me because when you sit down much within me because when you sit down with someone who's really done the work with someone who's really done the work with someone who's really done the work and really had to work through grief and and really had to work through grief and and really had to work through grief and really had to think through this loss on really had to think through this loss on really had to think through this loss on such a personal level, such a personal level, such a personal level, your answers are beyond any your answers are beyond any your answers are beyond any logic in a beautiful way. logic in a beautiful way. logic in a beautiful way. >> Thanks. and they're they're >> Thanks. and they're they're >> Thanks. and they're they're counterintuitive almost and that's counterintuitive almost and that's counterintuitive almost and that's what's so what's so what's so helpful and refreshing and yeah, helpful and refreshing and yeah, helpful and refreshing and yeah, >> you know what's so weird though is like >> you know what's so weird though is like >> you know what's so weird though is like partly it helps you and then partly it partly it helps you and then partly it partly it helps you and then partly it doesn't cuz like the next thing that doesn't cuz like the next thing that doesn't cuz like the next thing that comes is also really hard. Like comes is also really hard. Like comes is also really hard. Like >> sometimes I think that about talking >> sometimes I think that about talking >> sometimes I think that about talking about Paul and like going through that about Paul and like going through that about Paul and like going through that experience. Like Paul's memoir came out experience. Like Paul's memoir came out experience. Like Paul's memoir came out a little under a year after he died and a little under a year after he died and a little under a year after he died and then I immediately went on a book tour then I immediately went on a book tour then I immediately went on a book tour like an unexpected book tour like an unexpected book tour like an unexpected book tour >> and was like processing in real time >> and was like processing in real time >> and was like processing in real time like what had happened really just like like what had happened really just like like what had happened really just like aching through grief and describing it. aching through grief and describing it. aching through grief and describing it. And now I'm describing like I went And now I'm describing like I went And now I'm describing like I went through this process and what came out through this process and what came out through this process and what came out of it which is like a wonderful thing. of it which is like a wonderful thing. of it which is like a wonderful thing. But then like the things that are But then like the things that are But then like the things that are happening for me, like I talked to happening for me, like I talked to happening for me, like I talked to somebody the other day actually who said somebody the other day actually who said somebody the other day actually who said this who said like, "Oh, I'm raising this who said like, "Oh, I'm raising this who said like, "Oh, I'm raising this like challenging teenager and it's this like challenging teenager and it's this like challenging teenager and it's the hardest thing I've ever done." And the hardest thing I've ever done." And the hardest thing I've ever done." And then she was like, "Well, I told a then she was like, "Well, I told a then she was like, "Well, I told a friend that." And the friend said, "Wait friend that." And the friend said, "Wait friend that." And the friend said, "Wait a second. Like 12 years ago, your wife a second. Like 12 years ago, your wife a second. Like 12 years ago, your wife had cancer and you had young children. had cancer and you had young children. had cancer and you had young children. Isn't that the hardest thing you've ever Isn't that the hardest thing you've ever Isn't that the hardest thing you've ever done?" And she was like, "Oh, it is. It done?" And she was like, "Oh, it is. It done?" And she was like, "Oh, it is. It definitely is. But right now, this feels definitely is. But right now, this feels definitely is. But right now, this feels like the hardest thing. like it's the like the hardest thing. like it's the like the hardest thing. like it's the new hardest thing, new hardest thing, new hardest thing, >> you know, but at the same time, I think >> you know, but at the same time, I think >> you know, but at the same time, I think you end up realizing like, okay, I've you end up realizing like, okay, I've you end up realizing like, okay, I've done a hard thing before, you know, like done a hard thing before, you know, like done a hard thing before, you know, like Jane Fonda on um Julia Lou Drifus' Jane Fonda on um Julia Lou Drifus' Jane Fonda on um Julia Lou Drifus' podcast, podcast, podcast, >> she was like, people always say that >> she was like, people always say that >> she was like, people always say that being old is hard. And she's like, no, being old is hard. And she's like, no, being old is hard. And she's like, no, being young is hard. She's like, being being young is hard. She's like, being being young is hard. She's like, being old is amazing. Like, old is amazing. Like, old is amazing. Like, >> you've been through so many things, you >> you've been through so many things, you >> you've been through so many things, you know, you can do it. And I was like, know, you can do it. And I was like, know, you can do it. And I was like, that's awesome. that's awesome. that's awesome. >> If we're able to pull from that well >> If we're able to pull from that well >> If we're able to pull from that well >> Yeah. of experience and tragedy. And if >> Yeah. of experience and tragedy. And if >> Yeah. of experience and tragedy. And if we're able to look at it and go because we're able to look at it and go because we're able to look at it and go because I think I think I think humans don't I think I think I think humans don't I think I think I think humans don't give themselves enough credit for how give themselves enough credit for how give themselves enough credit for how much they've survived. much they've survived. much they've survived. >> Same. >> Same. >> Same. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We don't give ourselves enough credit >> We don't give ourselves enough credit >> We don't give ourselves enough credit because we don't we don't look back at because we don't we don't look back at because we don't we don't look back at that moment and think we were strong. We that moment and think we were strong. We that moment and think we were strong. We look back at it and think we were weak. look back at it and think we were weak. look back at it and think we were weak. >> That's so interesting. And then we just >> That's so interesting. And then we just >> That's so interesting. And then we just I was a stupid teenager and then you're I was a stupid teenager and then you're I was a stupid teenager and then you're like no, you had to learn that. like no, you had to learn that. like no, you had to learn that. >> There's no other way to learn that. >> There's no other way to learn that. >> There's no other way to learn that. >> Exactly. which is which is wow that I mean I remember talking to my mom that I mean I remember talking to my mom once and my mom is not someone who gives once and my mom is not someone who gives once and my mom is not someone who gives me motivational advice or gives me me motivational advice or gives me me motivational advice or gives me wisdom she's loving and caring but not wisdom she's loving and caring but not wisdom she's loving and caring but not >> a wise sage in her words and I remember >> a wise sage in her words and I remember >> a wise sage in her words and I remember I was going through my most difficult I was going through my most difficult I was going through my most difficult fight yet at a certain point in my life fight yet at a certain point in my life fight yet at a certain point in my life around 9 years ago around 9 years ago around 9 years ago >> and I was talking to my mom and she was >> and I was talking to my mom and she was >> and I was talking to my mom and she was asking me how I was and what I ate for asking me how I was and what I ate for asking me how I was and what I ate for dinner, which she it was usually our dinner, which she it was usually our dinner, which she it was usually our conversation. [laughter] conversation. [laughter] conversation. [laughter] And I just said to her, I was like, And I just said to her, I was like, And I just said to her, I was like, "Yeah, you know, I'm just I'm doing all "Yeah, you know, I'm just I'm doing all "Yeah, you know, I'm just I'm doing all right. I'm just stressed out, doing a right. I'm just stressed out, doing a right. I'm just stressed out, doing a bit, you know, and and I would say that bit, you know, and and I would say that bit, you know, and and I would say that in a passing way." in a passing way." in a passing way." >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And she said, "You're good at dealing >> And she said, "You're good at dealing >> And she said, "You're good at dealing with stress." And I was like, "What do with stress." And I was like, "What do with stress." And I was like, "What do like my mom doesn't just say?" like my mom doesn't just say?" like my mom doesn't just say?" >> It was so helpful. >> It was so helpful. >> It was so helpful. >> Yeah. And I said, "What do you mean?" >> Yeah. And I said, "What do you mean?" >> Yeah. And I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "Well, when you were in my And she said, "Well, when you were in my And she said, "Well, when you were in my womb, you went through a lot of stress." womb, you went through a lot of stress." womb, you went through a lot of stress." >> That's so beautiful. >> That's so beautiful. >> That's so beautiful. >> And it was like, >> And it was like, >> And it was like, >> oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. It gave me >> oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. It gave me >> oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. It gave me so so so >> so much. It It's still what I turn to >> so much. It It's still what I turn to >> so much. It It's still what I turn to >> when I need strength. >> when I need strength. >> when I need strength. >> Oh my goodness. >> Oh my goodness. >> Oh my goodness. >> And it's it broke through the challenge >> And it's it broke through the challenge >> And it's it broke through the challenge I had at that time. Like it gave me all I had at that time. Like it gave me all I had at that time. Like it gave me all the resilience and conviction I needed the resilience and conviction I needed the resilience and conviction I needed because my mom had just reminded me that because my mom had just reminded me that because my mom had just reminded me that >> Well, that's so beautiful. >> Well, that's so beautiful. >> Well, that's so beautiful. >> Yeah, it was it was unbelievable. >> Yeah, it was it was unbelievable. >> Yeah, it was it was unbelievable. >> It's so amazing, too, because she's >> It's so amazing, too, because she's >> It's so amazing, too, because she's saying like that's such an embodied saying like that's such an embodied saying like that's such an embodied thing because like Oh my gosh, I'm going thing because like Oh my gosh, I'm going thing because like Oh my gosh, I'm going to cry because like she's telling you to cry because like she's telling you to cry because like she's telling you like your the fact that you were an in a like your the fact that you were an in a like your the fact that you were an in a fetus, right? She's telling you like fetus, right? She's telling you like fetus, right? She's telling you like your body already knows how to do this. your body already knows how to do this. your body already knows how to do this. Like your body did this before you like Like your body did this before you like Like your body did this before you like could even when you were preverbal. could even when you were preverbal. could even when you were preverbal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. What a like amazing form of trust >> Wow. What a like amazing form of trust >> Wow. What a like amazing form of trust she gave you in yourself. she gave you in yourself. she gave you in yourself. >> I've been thinking a lot about this idea >> I've been thinking a lot about this idea >> I've been thinking a lot about this idea of the stories of your parents and the of the stories of your parents and the of the stories of your parents and the stories of your ancestors. stories of your ancestors. stories of your ancestors. And when I think about the stories of my And when I think about the stories of my And when I think about the stories of my parents, which I learned early on, but parents, which I learned early on, but parents, which I learned early on, but not in as much detail as I wished, not in as much detail as I wished, not in as much detail as I wished, >> I just heard about how much they went >> I just heard about how much they went >> I just heard about how much they went through. And I was thinking about this through. And I was thinking about this through. And I was thinking about this with Katie is where I'm going with this. with Katie is where I'm going with this. with Katie is where I'm going with this. >> And it's almost like I didn't live that >> And it's almost like I didn't live that >> And it's almost like I didn't live that with them. I didn't live in those homes with them. I didn't live in those homes with them. I didn't live in those homes they grew up in. My dad grew up in the they grew up in. My dad grew up in the they grew up in. My dad grew up in the slums in India. My my mom grew up in a slums in India. My my mom grew up in a slums in India. My my mom grew up in a war torn country. They both moved to war torn country. They both moved to war torn country. They both moved to England, you know, when they got England, you know, when they got England, you know, when they got married. And when I think about that, married. And when I think about that, married. And when I think about that, I'm like, "Wow, that is that's so I'm like, "Wow, that is that's so I'm like, "Wow, that is that's so difficult." Like, my parents did difficult." Like, my parents did difficult." Like, my parents did something really hard. something really hard. something really hard. >> My mom was studying for her exams when >> My mom was studying for her exams when >> My mom was studying for her exams when she had soldiers on her rooftop. she had soldiers on her rooftop. she had soldiers on her rooftop. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And my dad shared a bathroom with like >> And my dad shared a bathroom with like >> And my dad shared a bathroom with like 25 families. 25 families. 25 families. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when I think about think, god, that >> And when I think about think, god, that >> And when I think about think, god, that is insane. And and then when you think is insane. And and then when you think is insane. And and then when you think and you're like, but I come from that. and you're like, but I come from that. and you're like, but I come from that. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Like like I come from that. And like >> Like like I come from that. And like >> Like like I come from that. And like what? what? what? >> And so I wonder when like for Katie who >> And so I wonder when like for Katie who >> And so I wonder when like for Katie who >> Yeah. as we were talking about earlier, >> Yeah. as we were talking about earlier, >> Yeah. as we were talking about earlier, like doesn't necessarily know her her like doesn't necessarily know her her like doesn't necessarily know her her father, but how do you think about father, but how do you think about father, but how do you think about >> creating that experience for her in in >> creating that experience for her in in >> creating that experience for her in in helping her make sense of it? helping her make sense of it? helping her make sense of it? >> It's interesting that you're saying this >> It's interesting that you're saying this >> It's interesting that you're saying this thing about your parents because like thing about your parents because like thing about your parents because like the hardest thing is when your parents the hardest thing is when your parents the hardest thing is when your parents lay it out for you, right? Like you do lay it out for you, right? Like you do lay it out for you, right? Like you do need to sort of absorb it yourself, need to sort of absorb it yourself, need to sort of absorb it yourself, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> you know? I did this and then you're >> you know? I did this and then you're >> you know? I did this and then you're like, okay. But like it's so beautiful like, okay. But like it's so beautiful like, okay. But like it's so beautiful that you really absorbed it. So, it's that you really absorbed it. So, it's that you really absorbed it. So, it's like I guess I hope Katie will do that, like I guess I hope Katie will do that, like I guess I hope Katie will do that, you know, from reading Paul's book or you know, from reading Paul's book or you know, from reading Paul's book or from like watching me and, you know, from like watching me and, you know, from like watching me and, you know, being me. Um, whatever she takes from being me. Um, whatever she takes from being me. Um, whatever she takes from that. But I think I think so much about that. But I think I think so much about that. But I think I think so much about how to like give her sort of like how to like give her sort of like how to like give her sort of like spaciousness, like support and spaciousness, like support and spaciousness, like support and spaciousness to like figure out what it spaciousness to like figure out what it spaciousness to like figure out what it all means to her, you know, because all means to her, you know, because all means to her, you know, because she's her own person. Her childhood is she's her own person. Her childhood is she's her own person. Her childhood is very different from mine. in this other very different from mine. in this other very different from mine. in this other way, right? Like she has the hardship of way, right? Like she has the hardship of way, right? Like she has the hardship of losing a parent. I didn't. She's like losing a parent. I didn't. She's like losing a parent. I didn't. She's like decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not me. She's very specific. I think none of me. She's very specific. I think none of me. She's very specific. I think none of us honestly like comes to appreciate us honestly like comes to appreciate us honestly like comes to appreciate that our parents are like full human that our parents are like full human that our parents are like full human beings. Like it I remember in my 20s beings. Like it I remember in my 20s beings. Like it I remember in my 20s being like, "Wait a second, my dad is being like, "Wait a second, my dad is being like, "Wait a second, my dad is not a professional dad. He's like a not a professional dad. He's like a not a professional dad. He's like a dude. He's just a dude." Like that dude. He's just a dude." Like that dude. He's just a dude." Like that explains so much. Like that explains so explains so much. Like that explains so explains so much. Like that explains so much in a really like gorgeous way. You much in a really like gorgeous way. You much in a really like gorgeous way. You know, he's like someone who's just know, he's like someone who's just know, he's like someone who's just amazingly doing his best. Katie has amazingly doing his best. Katie has amazingly doing his best. Katie has fewer like signposts to know who Paul fewer like signposts to know who Paul fewer like signposts to know who Paul was, but she has this book to read. And was, but she has this book to read. And was, but she has this book to read. And the book essentially says like it's the book essentially says like it's the book essentially says like it's important to try hard. It's important to important to try hard. It's important to important to try hard. It's important to do your best and I love you. like he's, do your best and I love you. like he's, do your best and I love you. like he's, you know, Paul wrote so much about you know, Paul wrote so much about you know, Paul wrote so much about striving and about struggling to find striving and about struggling to find striving and about struggling to find meaning and about, you know, like about meaning and about, you know, like about meaning and about, you know, like about facing death squarely and then at the facing death squarely and then at the facing death squarely and then at the end he like stops and he's writing in a end he like stops and he's writing in a end he like stops and he's writing in a second person to her and like writes a second person to her and like writes a second person to her and like writes a message to her and that's the last piece message to her and that's the last piece message to her and that's the last piece that he puts for her. that he puts for her. that he puts for her. >> As I'm raising Katie, >> As I'm raising Katie, >> As I'm raising Katie, >> I try to have her sort of take in like >> I try to have her sort of take in like >> I try to have her sort of take in like random information about Paul. Like just random information about Paul. Like just random information about Paul. Like just truly random. Like you love taking a hot truly random. Like you love taking a hot truly random. Like you love taking a hot shower. I hate a hot shower. I get in shower. I hate a hot shower. I get in shower. I hate a hot shower. I get in and out. Like you and daddy like love a and out. Like you and daddy like love a and out. Like you and daddy like love a hot shower. He loved a hot shower. hot shower. He loved a hot shower. hot shower. He loved a hot shower. >> You take the hour power shower shower >> You take the hour power shower shower >> You take the hour power shower shower just like daddy. So that's just like a just like daddy. So that's just like a just like daddy. So that's just like a random thing that you would know if you random thing that you would know if you random thing that you would know if you were like growing up like next to were like growing up like next to were like growing up like next to someone, right? So I try to give her someone, right? So I try to give her someone, right? So I try to give her those kinds of things instead of just those kinds of things instead of just those kinds of things instead of just like like like >> your dad died and he was so wonderful >> your dad died and he was so wonderful >> your dad died and he was so wonderful and he loved you. It's like I try to and he loved you. It's like I try to and he loved you. It's like I try to give her like give her like give her like >> sort of specifics that are like neither >> sort of specifics that are like neither >> sort of specifics that are like neither here nor there, but they're like they here nor there, but they're like they here nor there, but they're like they like create a tapestry. Yes. like create a tapestry. Yes. like create a tapestry. Yes. >> She like sees his brothers who are like >> She like sees his brothers who are like >> She like sees his brothers who are like really funny and amazing and sort of really funny and amazing and sort of really funny and amazing and sort of like just funny in the way that he was like just funny in the way that he was like just funny in the way that he was >> and then I don't know what her >> and then I don't know what her >> and then I don't know what her interaction will be with Paul's book. interaction will be with Paul's book. interaction will be with Paul's book. Like it's all over our house. It's like Like it's all over our house. It's like Like it's all over our house. It's like I mean not all over but like we have I mean not all over but like we have I mean not all over but like we have five copies and they're on different five copies and they're on different five copies and they're on different bookshelves and they're around and I bookshelves and they're around and I bookshelves and they're around and I don't know when she's going to pick it don't know when she's going to pick it don't know when she's going to pick it up. I don't know what she's going to up. I don't know what she's going to up. I don't know what she's going to take. I don't know if he's going to feel take. I don't know if he's going to feel take. I don't know if he's going to feel really close, if he's going to feel really close, if he's going to feel really close, if he's going to feel really far or if she's going to say like really far or if she's going to say like really far or if she's going to say like I'm not interested in this or if she's I'm not interested in this or if she's I'm not interested in this or if she's going to be 30 and produce a movie going to be 30 and produce a movie going to be 30 and produce a movie adaptation. I have no no idea. But I adaptation. I have no no idea. But I adaptation. I have no no idea. But I hope that she'll find some way that hope that she'll find some way that hope that she'll find some way that helps her like you did understand like helps her like you did understand like helps her like you did understand like where she came from and where she came from and where she came from and >> that she was loved and yeah, she came >> that she was loved and yeah, she came >> that she was loved and yeah, she came from this. Like that's really beautiful from this. Like that's really beautiful from this. Like that's really beautiful to hear you say that to hear you say that to hear you say that >> I came from that. >> I came from that. >> I came from that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I I have no idea. >> So I I have no idea. >> So I I have no idea. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, of course you don't. But >> Yeah. Yeah. No, of course you don't. But >> Yeah. Yeah. No, of course you don't. But I I appreciate how you incorporate the I I appreciate how you incorporate the I I appreciate how you incorporate the story, the tapestry, the the natural, story, the tapestry, the the natural, story, the tapestry, the the natural, the real of of what an experience is and the real of of what an experience is and the real of of what an experience is and and the not heavy also the version and the not heavy also the version and the not heavy also the version that's digestible and inhalable. that's digestible and inhalable. that's digestible and inhalable. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Without holding Yeah. >> Without holding Yeah. >> Without holding Yeah. >> word because I've done a lot of like >> word because I've done a lot of like >> word because I've done a lot of like speaking and you know doing this book speaking and you know doing this book speaking and you know doing this book tour and connecting with like grief tour and connecting with like grief tour and connecting with like grief groups and just all kinds of stuff since groups and just all kinds of stuff since groups and just all kinds of stuff since Paul died. I've actually asked people Paul died. I've actually asked people Paul died. I've actually asked people for advice. Like if anyone here in this for advice. Like if anyone here in this for advice. Like if anyone here in this audience is the kid, you know, who like audience is the kid, you know, who like audience is the kid, you know, who like lost a grandparent or lost whomever and lost a grandparent or lost whomever and lost a grandparent or lost whomever and then you don't know them and you're then you don't know them and you're then you don't know them and you're piecing it together, what advice do you piecing it together, what advice do you piecing it together, what advice do you have? And like the resounding advice has have? And like the resounding advice has have? And like the resounding advice has been like don't put away the pictures. been like don't put away the pictures. been like don't put away the pictures. Don't lock it up, Don't lock it up, Don't lock it up, >> you know? Like let the kid sort of like >> you know? Like let the kid sort of like >> you know? Like let the kid sort of like have access, ask questions, like have access, ask questions, like have access, ask questions, like discover it, and just don't like put it discover it, and just don't like put it discover it, and just don't like put it away. What was it like making that away. What was it like making that away. What was it like making that decision to have Katie at the time and decision to have Katie at the time and decision to have Katie at the time and then actually go through both coming to then actually go through both coming to then actually go through both coming to terms with Paul's mortality and then you terms with Paul's mortality and then you terms with Paul's mortality and then you know wanting to create life together. know wanting to create life together. know wanting to create life together. >> Paul and I had sort of always thought >> Paul and I had sort of always thought >> Paul and I had sort of always thought like that would be the moment when we like that would be the moment when we like that would be the moment when we would think about having children like would think about having children like would think about having children like he was at the end of his residency. I he was at the end of his residency. I he was at the end of his residency. I wasn't attending by then. This is when wasn't attending by then. This is when wasn't attending by then. This is when things will like ostensively become things will like ostensively become things will like ostensively become easier. And then right at that moment easier. And then right at that moment easier. And then right at that moment he's diagnosed with metastatic terminal he's diagnosed with metastatic terminal he's diagnosed with metastatic terminal cancer. the prognosis is like months to cancer. the prognosis is like months to cancer. the prognosis is like months to a few years, but we both looked at each a few years, but we both looked at each a few years, but we both looked at each other and thought like maybe we should other and thought like maybe we should other and thought like maybe we should do this still. Sort of like surprised do this still. Sort of like surprised do this still. Sort of like surprised ourselves. And he was more certain than ourselves. And he was more certain than ourselves. And he was more certain than I was. He really really wanted to. And I I was. He really really wanted to. And I I was. He really really wanted to. And I needed to sort of shore up like the needed to sort of shore up like the needed to sort of shore up like the practicalities. It was sort of like practicalities. It was sort of like practicalities. It was sort of like >> is the family on board with this? Like >> is the family on board with this? Like >> is the family on board with this? Like >> we refinanced the mortgage like all of >> we refinanced the mortgage like all of >> we refinanced the mortgage like all of these things. It's like can I be a solo these things. It's like can I be a solo these things. It's like can I be a solo parent? Like that is what I'm going to parent? Like that is what I'm going to parent? Like that is what I'm going to be. And then I also was honestly worried be. And then I also was honestly worried be. And then I also was honestly worried about his I was worried about like what about his I was worried about like what about his I was worried about like what you said like how to hold like birth and you said like how to hold like birth and you said like how to hold like birth and death and all of it at one time. And I I death and all of it at one time. And I I death and all of it at one time. And I I asked him actually and was like you are asked him actually and was like you are asked him actually and was like you are you are sick and like as you're going you are sick and like as you're going you are sick and like as you're going through this process don't you feel like through this process don't you feel like through this process don't you feel like having a child will make dying more having a child will make dying more having a child will make dying more painful for you? painful for you? painful for you? And he said, he said, "Wouldn't it be And he said, he said, "Wouldn't it be And he said, he said, "Wouldn't it be great if it did make it more painful, great if it did make it more painful, great if it did make it more painful, which just like cracked the whole thing which just like cracked the whole thing which just like cracked the whole thing open?" And I think actually for anybody open?" And I think actually for anybody open?" And I think actually for anybody who has a child, like nobody is doing it who has a child, like nobody is doing it who has a child, like nobody is doing it because it's going to make their life because it's going to make their life because it's going to make their life easier. There's like a million things we easier. There's like a million things we easier. There's like a million things we do do do >> that make our lives harder. Like >> that make our lives harder. Like >> that make our lives harder. Like everything, everything, right? Like, you everything, everything, right? Like, you everything, everything, right? Like, you know, climb a mountain all the way to know, climb a mountain all the way to know, climb a mountain all the way to the top to come down again in the exact the top to come down again in the exact the top to come down again in the exact same day. It's like you didn't do that same day. It's like you didn't do that same day. It's like you didn't do that because it was easy. And so I just think because it was easy. And so I just think because it was easy. And so I just think wouldn't it be great if it did has wouldn't it be great if it did has wouldn't it be great if it did has changed my life so much and cracked open changed my life so much and cracked open changed my life so much and cracked open like not necessarily the best one. like not necessarily the best one. like not necessarily the best one. Sometimes you cannot have joy without Sometimes you cannot have joy without Sometimes you cannot have joy without risking pain or inviting pain. And for risking pain or inviting pain. And for risking pain or inviting pain. And for me it was like another layer of me it was like another layer of me it was like another layer of uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself is like so much uncertainty, so much is like so much uncertainty, so much is like so much uncertainty, so much fear. And I actually as a new mom had to fear. And I actually as a new mom had to fear. And I actually as a new mom had to keep reminding myself like you know it's keep reminding myself like you know it's keep reminding myself like you know it's like you go in and you like make sure like you go in and you like make sure like you go in and you like make sure the baby's still breathing and you're the baby's still breathing and you're the baby's still breathing and you're like is everything okay? She gets a like is everything okay? She gets a like is everything okay? She gets a fever and it's such a panic and like I fever and it's such a panic and like I fever and it's such a panic and like I had to remember and be like I am 99% had to remember and be like I am 99% had to remember and be like I am 99% certain that this person is going to be certain that this person is going to be certain that this person is going to be fine Katie. I'm 99% certain that Paul fine Katie. I'm 99% certain that Paul fine Katie. I'm 99% certain that Paul will not be fine. So like that is now will not be fine. So like that is now will not be fine. So like that is now like where I need to hold like where I need to hold like where I need to hold >> like my energy. So that was kind of like >> like my energy. So that was kind of like >> like my energy. So that was kind of like helpful. Like when she was a baby, it helpful. Like when she was a baby, it helpful. Like when she was a baby, it was like it's so easy to wish away time, was like it's so easy to wish away time, was like it's so easy to wish away time, you know? It's like, oh, I can't wait you know? It's like, oh, I can't wait you know? It's like, oh, I can't wait till she sleeps through the night or till she sleeps through the night or till she sleeps through the night or like what's she going to be like when like what's she going to be like when like what's she going to be like when she's like 18? And there was none of she's like 18? And there was none of she's like 18? And there was none of that. It was like this is like the that. It was like this is like the that. It was like this is like the moment that Paul will be here for is moment that Paul will be here for is moment that Paul will be here for is like Katie's infantthood and like Paul's like Katie's infantthood and like Paul's like Katie's infantthood and like Paul's final years. And so there was no like final years. And so there was no like final years. And so there was no like wishing away the moment. It was all wishing away the moment. It was all wishing away the moment. It was all present. And it turns out like that's present. And it turns out like that's present. And it turns out like that's actually really good for you. It's like actually really good for you. It's like actually really good for you. It's like the reason people like learn to meditate the reason people like learn to meditate the reason people like learn to meditate or you know or it's like I'm washing my or you know or it's like I'm washing my or you know or it's like I'm washing my hands in the sink like this is the hands in the sink like this is the hands in the sink like this is the feeling of the cool water. It was like feeling of the cool water. It was like feeling of the cool water. It was like that. It was like like a baby cries, that. It was like like a baby cries, that. It was like like a baby cries, someone dies. I'm here like in this someone dies. I'm here like in this someone dies. I'm here like in this moment, you know, and so yeah, and I moment, you know, and so yeah, and I moment, you know, and so yeah, and I still can access that somewhat. And then still can access that somewhat. And then still can access that somewhat. And then I also am like, you know, where are the I also am like, you know, where are the I also am like, you know, where are the pencils for seventh grade? So like but pencils for seventh grade? So like but pencils for seventh grade? So like but anyway it was it was like beautiful and anyway it was it was like beautiful and anyway it was it was like beautiful and amazing and really good that we did it amazing and really good that we did it amazing and really good that we did it and just yeah and just yeah and just yeah it it worked out taught me a lot. Were it it worked out taught me a lot. Were it it worked out taught me a lot. Were you always so evolved and or did this you always so evolved and or did this you always so evolved and or did this accelerate it in a way that because when accelerate it in a way that because when accelerate it in a way that because when I hear you speak I'm just like God this I hear you speak I'm just like God this I hear you speak I'm just like God this is like a lot of growth a lot of in a is like a lot of growth a lot of in a is like a lot of growth a lot of in a short amount of time a lot of short amount of time a lot of short amount of time a lot of >> taking on a lot of different things in a >> taking on a lot of different things in a >> taking on a lot of different things in a short amount of time and it's almost short amount of time and it's almost short amount of time and it's almost like do you feel like you were somewhat like do you feel like you were somewhat like do you feel like you were somewhat prepared for it from somewhere in your prepared for it from somewhere in your prepared for it from somewhere in your past? The heaviest lift for me actually past? The heaviest lift for me actually past? The heaviest lift for me actually I think in terms of like training my I think in terms of like training my I think in terms of like training my like brain and heart to hold a million like brain and heart to hold a million like brain and heart to hold a million things actually was in medical school. I things actually was in medical school. I things actually was in medical school. I was like I cannot believe I'm using like was like I cannot believe I'm using like was like I cannot believe I'm using like every fiber of my being to figure out every fiber of my being to figure out every fiber of my being to figure out like intellectually and emotionally how like intellectually and emotionally how like intellectually and emotionally how to take care of sick people and attend to take care of sick people and attend to take care of sick people and attend to like every every layer of what's to like every every layer of what's to like every every layer of what's happening in this room and then like happening in this room and then like happening in this room and then like make a 10,000 decisions about like how make a 10,000 decisions about like how make a 10,000 decisions about like how to make it all happen. So that was to make it all happen. So that was to make it all happen. So that was really hard. I also went through an really hard. I also went through an really hard. I also went through an episode of depression in residency. It episode of depression in residency. It episode of depression in residency. It was incredibly painful. I wasn't like was incredibly painful. I wasn't like was incredibly painful. I wasn't like hospitalized, but I took two weeks off hospitalized, but I took two weeks off hospitalized, but I took two weeks off work and I felt like I just felt like I work and I felt like I just felt like I work and I felt like I just felt like I didn't exist. I mean, it was depression. didn't exist. I mean, it was depression. didn't exist. I mean, it was depression. It's like depression. Like Andrew It's like depression. Like Andrew It's like depression. Like Andrew Sullivan says about depression, like Sullivan says about depression, like Sullivan says about depression, like depression is not the opposite of depression is not the opposite of depression is not the opposite of happiness, it's the opposite of happiness, it's the opposite of happiness, it's the opposite of vitality. It's like so interesting. vitality. It's like so interesting. vitality. It's like so interesting. >> That was really hard. And I think like >> That was really hard. And I think like >> That was really hard. And I think like making it through that I don't even making it through that I don't even making it through that I don't even think I could put into words what it think I could put into words what it think I could put into words what it like taught me but touching that like like taught me but touching that like like taught me but touching that like pain like left me with I don't know some pain like left me with I don't know some pain like left me with I don't know some sort of ability to approach darkness or sort of ability to approach darkness or sort of ability to approach darkness or something just be like okay like I don't something just be like okay like I don't something just be like okay like I don't know I have no idea. Yeah. And then I know I have no idea. Yeah. And then I know I have no idea. Yeah. And then I just have like really good friends and just have like really good friends and just have like really good friends and we're talking all the time. Like I'm a we're talking all the time. Like I'm a we're talking all the time. Like I'm a processor by talking obviously, processor by talking obviously, processor by talking obviously, >> you know. And then at the same time it's >> you know. And then at the same time it's >> you know. And then at the same time it's like I went through this hard thing of like I went through this hard thing of like I went through this hard thing of all these ideas about like all these ideas about like all these ideas about like >> what helps me cope and then you go >> what helps me cope and then you go >> what helps me cope and then you go through a breakup and you're like through a breakup and you're like through a breakup and you're like heartbroken and you hate everything and heartbroken and you hate everything and heartbroken and you hate everything and you have to start again or like you know you have to start again or like you know you have to start again or like you know you have to figure out how to explain it you have to figure out how to explain it you have to figure out how to explain it to a kid and then you know like that's to a kid and then you know like that's to a kid and then you know like that's impossible or they think you're stupid impossible or they think you're stupid impossible or they think you're stupid you know like you know like you know like >> I don't know. It's all [laughter] >> I don't know. It's all [laughter] >> I don't know. It's all [laughter] everything. It's all everything. It's everything. It's all everything. It's everything. It's all everything. It's the transcendence and [ __ ] Yeah. the transcendence and [ __ ] Yeah. the transcendence and [ __ ] Yeah. >> You know, this actually makes me think >> You know, this actually makes me think >> You know, this actually makes me think of this thing. Yeah. Transcendence and of this thing. Yeah. Transcendence and of this thing. Yeah. Transcendence and [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Do you know this idea? It came out of >> Do you know this idea? It came out of >> Do you know this idea? It came out of Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social psychologist. This idea of like the end psychologist. This idea of like the end psychologist. This idea of like the end of history illusion. So like he talks of history illusion. So like he talks of history illusion. So like he talks about like when you're asking this about like when you're asking this about like when you're asking this question of like like what got you to question of like like what got you to question of like like what got you to where you are today? And then like where you are today? And then like where you are today? And then like >> he interviewed a bunch of people and he >> he interviewed a bunch of people and he >> he interviewed a bunch of people and he said like how much do you think you've said like how much do you think you've said like how much do you think you've changed in the past 10 years? And changed in the past 10 years? And changed in the past 10 years? And everyone said so much. Like so much. And everyone said so much. Like so much. And everyone said so much. Like so much. And they said how much do you think you're they said how much do you think you're they said how much do you think you're going to change in the next 10 years? going to change in the next 10 years? going to change in the next 10 years? People said probably not a lot. And he People said probably not a lot. And he People said probably not a lot. And he interviewed people at every age and interviewed people at every age and interviewed people at every age and there's like a little little bit of a there's like a little little bit of a there's like a little little bit of a slowdown like in midlife but essentially slowdown like in midlife but essentially slowdown like in midlife but essentially everyone changes all the time. Everyone everyone changes all the time. Everyone everyone changes all the time. Everyone changes the same amount in the 10 years. changes the same amount in the 10 years. changes the same amount in the 10 years. >> You walk around thinking it's the end of >> You walk around thinking it's the end of >> You walk around thinking it's the end of history illusion of like I'm me. I've history illusion of like I'm me. I've history illusion of like I'm me. I've made it here. I've got it sorted. Here made it here. I've got it sorted. Here made it here. I've got it sorted. Here we go. You know, and then in 10 years we go. You know, and then in 10 years we go. You know, and then in 10 years you'll be like a whole different you you'll be like a whole different you you'll be like a whole different you with like different sensibility or like with like different sensibility or like with like different sensibility or like different frameworks. Like, isn't that different frameworks. Like, isn't that different frameworks. Like, isn't that crazy? crazy? crazy? >> So, I don't know. I find that really >> So, I don't know. I find that really >> So, I don't know. I find that really helpful. I don't know why. Just kind of helpful. I don't know why. Just kind of helpful. I don't know why. Just kind of like like like >> Yeah. Yeah. Allowing ourselves to be new >> Yeah. Yeah. Allowing ourselves to be new >> Yeah. Yeah. Allowing ourselves to be new and different. I mean, it's interesting and different. I mean, it's interesting and different. I mean, it's interesting when you first said that question, I was when you first said that question, I was when you first said that question, I was like, "Oh, I'd say I haven't changed like, "Oh, I'd say I haven't changed like, "Oh, I'd say I haven't changed much in the last 10 years." My that much in the last 10 years." My that much in the last 10 years." My that would be my initial take. I feel like I would be my initial take. I feel like I would be my initial take. I feel like I knew who I was. I'm pretty much the same knew who I was. I'm pretty much the same knew who I was. I'm pretty much the same person. But I think that's not fully person. But I think that's not fully person. But I think that's not fully true. I think there's there's also an true. I think there's there's also an true. I think there's there's also an end of history illusion from 10 years end of history illusion from 10 years end of history illusion from 10 years ago. ago. ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In the sense of like I made up my mind >> In the sense of like I made up my mind >> In the sense of like I made up my mind who I was 10 years ago in my head and I who I was 10 years ago in my head and I who I was 10 years ago in my head and I stopped then. And it's like, well, stopped then. And it's like, well, stopped then. And it's like, well, that's not obviously true. Yeah, that's not obviously true. Yeah, that's not obviously true. Yeah, >> that's fascinating. That's that's really >> that's fascinating. That's that's really >> that's fascinating. That's that's really cool to play with. cool to play with. cool to play with. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it's refreshing to allow yourself to >> it's refreshing to allow yourself to >> it's refreshing to allow yourself to say, "I have changed. My ability, my say, "I have changed. My ability, my say, "I have changed. My ability, my values have changed or what I care about values have changed or what I care about values have changed or what I care about has changed." And has changed." And has changed." And >> and then when a big hard thing happens, >> and then when a big hard thing happens, >> and then when a big hard thing happens, you're like, "Oh, it's going to make you're like, "Oh, it's going to make you're like, "Oh, it's going to make them me." [laughter] them me." [laughter] them me." [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like Dan's work, so I'll have to check that Dan's work, so I'll have to check that Dan's work, so I'll have to check that out. out. out. >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you actually going >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you actually going >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you actually going back to something you said earlier, what back to something you said earlier, what back to something you said earlier, what about Kat Katie reminds you most about about Kat Katie reminds you most about about Kat Katie reminds you most about Paul? Paul? Paul? >> Her eyes in her hands, her stubbornness, >> Her eyes in her hands, her stubbornness, >> Her eyes in her hands, her stubbornness, it's like infuriating. She very much it's like infuriating. She very much it's like infuriating. She very much knows her own mind, which is knows her own mind, which is knows her own mind, which is infuriating. [laughter] infuriating. [laughter] infuriating. [laughter] >> I love them. Yeah. >> I love them. Yeah. >> I love them. Yeah. >> It's like an entire parenting toolboxes >> It's like an entire parenting toolboxes >> It's like an entire parenting toolboxes are unavailable to me because she's not are unavailable to me because she's not are unavailable to me because she's not a pleaser. Um, and then she's like an a pleaser. Um, and then she's like an a pleaser. Um, and then she's like an incredible physical comedian, which Paul incredible physical comedian, which Paul incredible physical comedian, which Paul was also. Those are the things I think I was also. Those are the things I think I was also. Those are the things I think I would say. She's introverted. Like Paul would say. She's introverted. Like Paul would say. She's introverted. Like Paul I process by like speaking, like I process by like speaking, like I process by like speaking, like relating. Sometimes I don't even know relating. Sometimes I don't even know relating. Sometimes I don't even know what I think until I've said it. And what I think until I've said it. And what I think until I've said it. And Paul was much more like inward. I think Paul was much more like inward. I think Paul was much more like inward. I think that's like that's sort of like why he's that's like that's sort of like why he's that's like that's sort of like why he's like when breath becomes air spun out of like when breath becomes air spun out of like when breath becomes air spun out of his illness because he was like turning his illness because he was like turning his illness because he was like turning and processing and reading and writing and processing and reading and writing and processing and reading and writing and she's introverted like that. and she's introverted like that. and she's introverted like that. >> But then she'll give you like, you know, >> But then she'll give you like, you know, >> But then she'll give you like, you know, like a little gleam, you know, of like a little gleam, you know, of like a little gleam, you know, of something she's thinking. something she's thinking. something she's thinking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Has she ever asked you anything about >> Has she ever asked you anything about >> Has she ever asked you anything about Paul? Like from her own curiosity? Paul? Like from her own curiosity? Paul? Like from her own curiosity? >> Totally. And she's actually, it's so >> Totally. And she's actually, it's so >> Totally. And she's actually, it's so interesting you asked that because I was interesting you asked that because I was interesting you asked that because I was going to say of course and then but it's going to say of course and then but it's going to say of course and then but it's not necessarily of course. She's just not necessarily of course. She's just not necessarily of course. She's just sort of in the mix gleaning, sort of in the mix gleaning, sort of in the mix gleaning, >> but recently she started to she said >> but recently she started to she said >> but recently she started to she said like could you make me a album of videos like could you make me a album of videos like could you make me a album of videos of daddy? And I was like sure and it's of daddy? And I was like sure and it's of daddy? And I was like sure and it's like I so badly want to be like what's like I so badly want to be like what's like I so badly want to be like what's she watching? When's she watching them? she watching? When's she watching them? she watching? When's she watching them? You know, cuz she's like having iPad You know, cuz she's like having iPad You know, cuz she's like having iPad time. But like there's a bunch of time. But like there's a bunch of time. But like there's a bunch of videos. there's like some interviews and videos. there's like some interviews and videos. there's like some interviews and there's some goofy like sketch comedy there's some goofy like sketch comedy there's some goofy like sketch comedy stuff and there's some like Thanksgiving stuff and there's some like Thanksgiving stuff and there's some like Thanksgiving someone shot a video of whatever and so someone shot a video of whatever and so someone shot a video of whatever and so like she can look at that and then she like she can look at that and then she like she can look at that and then she asks for like stories I'll tell her a asks for like stories I'll tell her a asks for like stories I'll tell her a story of like oh here's a story about story of like oh here's a story about story of like oh here's a story about daddy like in a chess tournament when he daddy like in a chess tournament when he daddy like in a chess tournament when he was in seventh grade and he was like was in seventh grade and he was like was in seventh grade and he was like really bratty and a terrible loser and really bratty and a terrible loser and really bratty and a terrible loser and so like well you know she's like ah but so like well you know she's like ah but so like well you know she's like ah but then there you know there's a lesson in then there you know there's a lesson in then there you know there's a lesson in that that that >> and she like recently like of her own >> and she like recently like of her own >> and she like recently like of her own valition like put a small photo of the valition like put a small photo of the valition like put a small photo of the two of them next to her bed, you know, two of them next to her bed, you know, two of them next to her bed, you know, and I was like, "Oh, so interesting." and I was like, "Oh, so interesting." and I was like, "Oh, so interesting." Like, she's like claiming him. Like, she's like claiming him. Like, she's like claiming him. >> That's beautiful. >> That's beautiful. >> That's beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what's else is interesting >> You know what's else is interesting >> You know what's else is interesting though is like she doesn't have a though is like she doesn't have a though is like she doesn't have a sibling. Like it's me and her. And she sibling. Like it's me and her. And she sibling. Like it's me and her. And she really wants a sibling. She wants a really wants a sibling. She wants a really wants a sibling. She wants a little sister specifically. She really little sister specifically. She really little sister specifically. She really wants me to keep dating so she can have wants me to keep dating so she can have wants me to keep dating so she can have a sibling. I'm like, "We can't engineer a sibling. I'm like, "We can't engineer a sibling. I'm like, "We can't engineer that whole thing. I'll keep [laughter] that whole thing. I'll keep [laughter] that whole thing. I'll keep [laughter] you posted." you posted." you posted." But it's interesting because I actually But it's interesting because I actually But it's interesting because I actually think like for her losing Paul was a big think like for her losing Paul was a big think like for her losing Paul was a big thing and not having like a dad there is thing and not having like a dad there is thing and not having like a dad there is a big thing, but not having a sibling is a big thing, but not having a sibling is a big thing, but not having a sibling is actually also a big thing. actually also a big thing. actually also a big thing. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Or having like our family look different >> Or having like our family look different >> Or having like our family look different from like most of the families at from like most of the families at from like most of the families at school. The permission slip is school. The permission slip is school. The permission slip is different. Like she's not self-conscious different. Like she's not self-conscious different. Like she's not self-conscious about it, but I think she like knows it about it, but I think she like knows it about it, but I think she like knows it and it's a thing. and it's a thing. and it's a thing. >> So it's actually kind of interesting cuz >> So it's actually kind of interesting cuz >> So it's actually kind of interesting cuz it's not the only thing, you know? So it's not the only thing, you know? So it's not the only thing, you know? So it's like she's piecing together like it's like she's piecing together like it's like she's piecing together like you know all of it like the structure of you know all of it like the structure of you know all of it like the structure of everything as every kid is doing right. everything as every kid is doing right. everything as every kid is doing right. >> Yeah. About that I mean you mentioned >> Yeah. About that I mean you mentioned >> Yeah. About that I mean you mentioned earlier that Paul obviously wanted you earlier that Paul obviously wanted you earlier that Paul obviously wanted you to remarry obviously Katie's encouraging to remarry obviously Katie's encouraging to remarry obviously Katie's encouraging you to date. Like [laughter] what was you to date. Like [laughter] what was you to date. Like [laughter] what was that process like for you because you that process like for you because you that process like for you because you can say it when he's there and say okay can say it when he's there and say okay can say it when he's there and say okay I understand that that's how you love me I understand that that's how you love me I understand that that's how you love me in that forever way. in that forever way. in that forever way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But what does that actually look like >> But what does that actually look like >> But what does that actually look like for the individual who has to go on and for the individual who has to go on and for the individual who has to go on and try to love again? How did you even try to love again? How did you even try to love again? How did you even begin to open your heart and mind to begin to open your heart and mind to begin to open your heart and mind to that possibility? Yeah. that possibility? Yeah. that possibility? Yeah. >> And when did it feel possible? >> And when did it feel possible? >> And when did it feel possible? >> I wasn't like trying to open my heart or >> I wasn't like trying to open my heart or >> I wasn't like trying to open my heart or I was just like it was just pure I was just like it was just pure I was just like it was just pure intuition. intuition. intuition. >> I was just sort of like I'll know when I >> I was just sort of like I'll know when I >> I was just sort of like I'll know when I know know know >> you know for my wedding ring I was like >> you know for my wedding ring I was like >> you know for my wedding ring I was like I guess I'll take it off sometime. It's I guess I'll take it off sometime. It's I guess I'll take it off sometime. It's not today. And then like 6 months after not today. And then like 6 months after not today. And then like 6 months after Paul died I went swimming and like took Paul died I went swimming and like took Paul died I went swimming and like took the ring off and then came out of the the ring off and then came out of the the ring off and then came out of the lake and was like oh I think I'm not lake and was like oh I think I'm not lake and was like oh I think I'm not going to put it back on. M going to put it back on. M going to put it back on. M >> and then like right now I have like my >> and then like right now I have like my >> and then like right now I have like my engagement ring and Paul's wedding ring engagement ring and Paul's wedding ring engagement ring and Paul's wedding ring on this hand on this hand on this hand >> which is interesting but maybe I'll take >> which is interesting but maybe I'll take >> which is interesting but maybe I'll take them off like if I were like dating them off like if I were like dating them off like if I were like dating someone really seriously I think I would someone really seriously I think I would someone really seriously I think I would take off Paul's ring you know take off Paul's ring you know take off Paul's ring you know >> so I was in this like support group >> so I was in this like support group >> so I was in this like support group called hot young widows club called hot young widows club called hot young widows club >> okay >> okay >> okay >> after Paul died it was Nora McInner made >> after Paul died it was Nora McInner made >> after Paul died it was Nora McInner made it was incredible it was incredible it was incredible >> and there was actually a lot of >> and there was actually a lot of >> and there was actually a lot of conversation in the group it was a it conversation in the group it was a it conversation in the group it was a it was on Facebook at the time there's a was on Facebook at the time there's a was on Facebook at the time there's a lot of conversation about like what did lot of conversation about like what did lot of conversation about like what did your person say about dating again like your person say about dating again like your person say about dating again like did you have this conversation or not. did you have this conversation or not. did you have this conversation or not. Cuz I think a lot of people who had had Cuz I think a lot of people who had had Cuz I think a lot of people who had had that conversation felt really freed by that conversation felt really freed by that conversation felt really freed by it. Some people thought like what would it. Some people thought like what would it. Some people thought like what would they want me to do or like is it a they want me to do or like is it a they want me to do or like is it a transgression or is it a disloyalty? And transgression or is it a disloyalty? And transgression or is it a disloyalty? And I don't think so at all. Like I think I don't think so at all. Like I think I don't think so at all. Like I think like not at all. like not at all. like not at all. >> But I think like I'll also always love >> But I think like I'll also always love >> But I think like I'll also always love Paul. It's really interesting. Paul. It's really interesting. Paul. It's really interesting. >> And I think like the analogy for me, I >> And I think like the analogy for me, I >> And I think like the analogy for me, I mean it's just like love is infinite. mean it's just like love is infinite. mean it's just like love is infinite. Like there's totally enough love to like Like there's totally enough love to like Like there's totally enough love to like go around. And I think for me it's not a go around. And I think for me it's not a go around. And I think for me it's not a perfect analogy, but it feels a little perfect analogy, but it feels a little perfect analogy, but it feels a little bit like if someone's child had died and bit like if someone's child had died and bit like if someone's child had died and then they had another child, then they had another child, then they had another child, you would never think like, oh, the this you would never think like, oh, the this you would never think like, oh, the this child replaced the other child or child replaced the other child or child replaced the other child or >> do they have enough space to like love >> do they have enough space to like love >> do they have enough space to like love the the new child. You'd be like, no, the the new child. You'd be like, no, the the new child. You'd be like, no, they're just different. Like it's a they're just different. Like it's a they're just different. Like it's a little different when it's your partner, little different when it's your partner, little different when it's your partner, right? But I'm like, Paul, the way I right? But I'm like, Paul, the way I right? But I'm like, Paul, the way I think of it now is like Paul's my think of it now is like Paul's my think of it now is like Paul's my family. Like he's my family. His family. Like he's my family. His family. Like he's my family. His family's my family. like he's my family family's my family. like he's my family family's my family. like he's my family forever and I absolutely like can fall forever and I absolutely like can fall forever and I absolutely like can fall in love, have fallen in love, like it's in love, have fallen in love, like it's in love, have fallen in love, like it's just like there's enough love to go just like there's enough love to go just like there's enough love to go around, around, around, >> you know? It's been like pretty easy in >> you know? It's been like pretty easy in >> you know? It's been like pretty easy in a way. And I think the grief part was a way. And I think the grief part was a way. And I think the grief part was actually the harder part. It's like I actually the harder part. It's like I actually the harder part. It's like I needed to like heal to be like ready and needed to like heal to be like ready and needed to like heal to be like ready and be like emotionally available for like be like emotionally available for like be like emotionally available for like anything. Like I was just like parenting anything. Like I was just like parenting anything. Like I was just like parenting my kid and surviving and then I became my kid and surviving and then I became my kid and surviving and then I became ready. Let me know if you want to set me ready. Let me know if you want to set me ready. Let me know if you want to set me up. [laughter] up. [laughter] up. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> they have to have one daughter younger >> they have to have one daughter younger >> they have to have one daughter younger than 11. than 11. than 11. >> Yes, Katie knows a little sister. Got >> Yes, Katie knows a little sister. Got >> Yes, Katie knows a little sister. Got it. That's a good criteria. We're going it. That's a good criteria. We're going it. That's a good criteria. We're going to put it out on the show right now. to put it out on the show right now. to put it out on the show right now. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> I'm hearing from you that it's that it's >> I'm hearing from you that it's that it's >> I'm hearing from you that it's that it's that intuitive tale. It's it's not Yeah. that intuitive tale. It's it's not Yeah. that intuitive tale. It's it's not Yeah. It's not something that you consciously It's not something that you consciously It's not something that you consciously pursue or prepare, pursue or prepare, pursue or prepare, >> which like it's probably similar for a >> which like it's probably similar for a >> which like it's probably similar for a bunch of people, right? Like after bunch of people, right? Like after bunch of people, right? Like after someone gets divorced and is like going someone gets divorced and is like going someone gets divorced and is like going through the like devastation and like through the like devastation and like through the like devastation and like identity and like what was what and what identity and like what was what and what identity and like what was what and what was my role? I don't know. It's just was my role? I don't know. It's just was my role? I don't know. It's just like it's all an upheaval, right? That's like it's all an upheaval, right? That's like it's all an upheaval, right? That's like also so like terribly hard. And so like also so like terribly hard. And so like also so like terribly hard. And so I don't know then it's like I don't know then it's like I don't know then it's like >> yeah when are you ready? >> yeah when are you ready? >> yeah when are you ready? >> Yeah absolutely. Yeah. When are you >> Yeah absolutely. Yeah. When are you >> Yeah absolutely. Yeah. When are you ready? And I think that's the question ready? And I think that's the question ready? And I think that's the question that everyone keeps quizzing in their that everyone keeps quizzing in their that everyone keeps quizzing in their mind. But like you said you can only mind. But like you said you can only mind. But like you said you can only know internally. It's not like a know internally. It's not like a know internally. It's not like a tactical practical thing that you can tactical practical thing that you can tactical practical thing that you can kind of put into number of months or kind of put into number of months or kind of put into number of months or years and yeah it doesn't it doesn't years and yeah it doesn't it doesn't years and yeah it doesn't it doesn't work that way. work that way. work that way. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> How do you define love today? I mean, I >> How do you define love today? I mean, I >> How do you define love today? I mean, I saw you talk about it actually on a clip saw you talk about it actually on a clip saw you talk about it actually on a clip where you were like, "The person who where you were like, "The person who where you were like, "The person who loves you will never use your wounds loves you will never use your wounds loves you will never use your wounds against you." against you." against you." >> And then you talked about how your wife >> And then you talked about how your wife >> And then you talked about how your wife like holds no judgment for you. And I like holds no judgment for you. And I like holds no judgment for you. And I was like, "Of course, of course." Cuz was like, "Of course, of course." Cuz was like, "Of course, of course." Cuz you're you like, and I don't mean you're you're you like, and I don't mean you're you're you like, and I don't mean you're J. Shetty. I mean like you're you you're J. Shetty. I mean like you're you you're J. Shetty. I mean like you're you you're the person they love. So like yeah, the person they love. So like yeah, the person they love. So like yeah, there's no judgment of whatever the there's no judgment of whatever the there's no judgment of whatever the thing is. There's just like partnership. thing is. There's just like partnership. thing is. There's just like partnership. It doesn't mean you could like endlessly It doesn't mean you could like endlessly It doesn't mean you could like endlessly hurt the person either, but like hurt the person either, but like hurt the person either, but like I don't know. That's part of it. I think I don't know. That's part of it. I think I don't know. That's part of it. I think I think there is like an I think there is like an I think there is like an unconditionality to love for sure. And unconditionality to love for sure. And unconditionality to love for sure. And at the same time, I think like that is at the same time, I think like that is at the same time, I think like that is more true for like children than adults. more true for like children than adults. more true for like children than adults. Like you don't love adults Like you don't love adults Like you don't love adults unconditionally, right? You like have unconditionally, right? You like have unconditionally, right? You like have boundaries that like adults like boundaries that like adults like boundaries that like adults like >> can't actually cross. >> can't actually cross. >> can't actually cross. >> But like as long as you can like work a >> But like as long as you can like work a >> But like as long as you can like work a relationship within that relationship within that relationship within that >> like real like partnership and >> like real like partnership and >> like real like partnership and spaciousness and like non-judgment. spaciousness and like non-judgment. spaciousness and like non-judgment. >> Yeah. It's a hard question. And it's >> Yeah. It's a hard question. And it's >> Yeah. It's a hard question. And it's it's a really hard. What would you say? it's a really hard. What would you say? it's a really hard. What would you say? >> I'm always changing my mind. I I think >> I'm always changing my mind. I I think >> I'm always changing my mind. I I think there's so many nuances and facets to it there's so many nuances and facets to it there's so many nuances and facets to it that it's so it's such a hard question. that it's so it's such a hard question. that it's so it's such a hard question. I think that's why we all struggle with I think that's why we all struggle with I think that's why we all struggle with it so much in finding it and looking for it so much in finding it and looking for it so much in finding it and looking for it. it. it. >> That's the answer too, right? It's like >> That's the answer too, right? It's like >> That's the answer too, right? It's like I would also be like fun and growth, I would also be like fun and growth, I would also be like fun and growth, isn't it? But it's like at the same time isn't it? But it's like at the same time isn't it? But it's like at the same time you're like it's sort of like that thing you're like it's sort of like that thing you're like it's sort of like that thing where it's like you know it when you where it's like you know it when you where it's like you know it when you know like it's intuitive. know like it's intuitive. know like it's intuitive. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean ultimately it's >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean ultimately it's >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean ultimately it's teamwork and teamwork requires all those teamwork and teamwork requires all those teamwork and teamwork requires all those things you just said that teamwork things you just said that teamwork things you just said that teamwork should be fun and it should have growth should be fun and it should have growth should be fun and it should have growth and it should have uh mutuality and it and it should have uh mutuality and it and it should have uh mutuality and it should have reciprocation and it should should have reciprocation and it should should have reciprocation and it should have connection and communication and so have connection and communication and so have connection and communication and so teamwork just it feels very simplistic teamwork just it feels very simplistic teamwork just it feels very simplistic but but it it gives you a good visual. but but it it gives you a good visual. but but it it gives you a good visual. >> Yeah. And at the same time like I do >> Yeah. And at the same time like I do >> Yeah. And at the same time like I do think it's like I mean you know this but think it's like I mean you know this but think it's like I mean you know this but like obviously it's never going to be like obviously it's never going to be like obviously it's never going to be perfect either. Like there's something perfect either. Like there's something perfect either. Like there's something actually really romantic in like actually really romantic in like actually really romantic in like choosing and like choosing like on a choosing and like choosing like on a choosing and like choosing like on a daily basis you know like that's very daily basis you know like that's very daily basis you know like that's very romantic of like romantic of like romantic of like >> sometimes one person's up one person's >> sometimes one person's up one person's >> sometimes one person's up one person's down sometimes it's like you know down sometimes it's like you know down sometimes it's like you know difficult difficult difficult >> you know but similarly like that's your >> you know but similarly like that's your >> you know but similarly like that's your team team team >> yeah yeah exactly exactly and it's it's >> yeah yeah exactly exactly and it's it's >> yeah yeah exactly exactly and it's it's shared shared shared >> it's a shared experience it's a shared >> it's a shared experience it's a shared >> it's a shared experience it's a shared life it's a co-created life life it's a co-created life life it's a co-created life >> it's a co-creation I think is so >> it's a co-creation I think is so >> it's a co-creation I think is so important and and co-holding and co- co- important and and co-holding and co- co- important and and co-holding and co- co- everything everything everything >> while also like you're still like two >> while also like you're still like two >> while also like you're still like two beings like correct you're you beings like correct you're you beings like correct you're you >> correct absolutely yeah >> correct absolutely yeah >> correct absolutely yeah >> yeah it's complicated I mean it's like >> yeah it's complicated I mean it's like >> yeah it's complicated I mean it's like it's a constant as you're saying this it's a constant as you're saying this it's a constant as you're saying this it's like similarly to the like end of it's like similarly to the like end of it's like similarly to the like end of illusion end of history illusion it's illusion end of history illusion it's illusion end of history illusion it's like it's never done and dusted like like it's never done and dusted like like it's never done and dusted like it's like it's like constantly like work it's like it's like constantly like work it's like it's like constantly like work >> yeah absolutely I wanted to talk to you >> yeah absolutely I wanted to talk to you >> yeah absolutely I wanted to talk to you a bit about this a bit about this a bit about this >> idea of and I know you've spoken about >> idea of and I know you've spoken about >> idea of and I know you've spoken about this this idea of like reimagining how this this idea of like reimagining how this this idea of like reimagining how we die uh Because we die uh Because we die uh Because >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> it kind of goes back to what you were >> it kind of goes back to what you were >> it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about the survivor or the saying earlier about the survivor or the saying earlier about the survivor or the beating cancer beating cancer beating cancer >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> approach. My monk friend who who passed >> approach. My monk friend who who passed >> approach. My monk friend who who passed away like he away like he away like he >> he was very positive >> he was very positive >> he was very positive >> and he almost just didn't let anyone in >> and he almost just didn't let anyone in >> and he almost just didn't let anyone in to what he was feeling and going through to what he was feeling and going through to what he was feeling and going through and that was his version of how he dealt and that was his version of how he dealt and that was his version of how he dealt with it. with it. with it. >> And as far as I know from him, I believe >> And as far as I know from him, I believe >> And as far as I know from him, I believe he was happy with that. And then of he was happy with that. And then of he was happy with that. And then of course at the end of his life, he needed course at the end of his life, he needed course at the end of his life, he needed support and help and everything and and support and help and everything and and support and help and everything and and he and he got that. I wonder what your he and he got that. I wonder what your he and he got that. I wonder what your take is on having obviously done this take is on having obviously done this take is on having obviously done this been a doctor seen patients been at been a doctor seen patients been at been a doctor seen patients been at grief groups like when you think about grief groups like when you think about grief groups like when you think about this idea of people battling between this idea of people battling between this idea of people battling between letting go and giving up and like what letting go and giving up and like what letting go and giving up and like what the difference is and what you do when the difference is and what you do when the difference is and what you do when you get a diagnosis and how you weigh up you get a diagnosis and how you weigh up you get a diagnosis and how you weigh up whether I should fight till the end or whether I should fight till the end or whether I should fight till the end or whether I'm giving up or actually am I whether I'm giving up or actually am I whether I'm giving up or actually am I just letting go like can you help make just letting go like can you help make just letting go like can you help make sense of that to some degree? sense of that to some degree? sense of that to some degree? >> Totally. I mean, no is the answer. >> Totally. I mean, no is the answer. >> Totally. I mean, no is the answer. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, I mean, I I hear you about your >> Um, I mean, I I hear you about your >> Um, I mean, I I hear you about your friend and it really is like to each his friend and it really is like to each his friend and it really is like to each his own. Like, people really have different own. Like, people really have different own. Like, people really have different ways of coping. ways of coping. ways of coping. >> Um, it is a weird time to die in America >> Um, it is a weird time to die in America >> Um, it is a weird time to die in America in history. Um, because like that sort in history. Um, because like that sort in history. Um, because like that sort of like battle idea like death is very of like battle idea like death is very of like battle idea like death is very medicalized and like very sort of like medicalized and like very sort of like medicalized and like very sort of like western medicalized right now here. And western medicalized right now here. And western medicalized right now here. And I think there's like a lot of reasons I think there's like a lot of reasons I think there's like a lot of reasons for that, but the battle metaphor is one for that, but the battle metaphor is one for that, but the battle metaphor is one of them. And another one is like we have of them. And another one is like we have of them. And another one is like we have all of this technology all of this technology all of this technology available that is like, you know, built available that is like, you know, built available that is like, you know, built for emergencies, but is getting offered for emergencies, but is getting offered for emergencies, but is getting offered to people who are like 90, you know, to people who are like 90, you know, to people who are like 90, you know, with like failing organs. Um, I think with like failing organs. Um, I think with like failing organs. Um, I think there's so much taboo around talking there's so much taboo around talking there's so much taboo around talking about death and dying and meanwhile also about death and dying and meanwhile also about death and dying and meanwhile also so much hunger to like crack it open and so much hunger to like crack it open and so much hunger to like crack it open and think about it. I think like suffering think about it. I think like suffering think about it. I think like suffering and dying are really hidden like from and dying are really hidden like from and dying are really hidden like from view view view >> the way that they haven't been across >> the way that they haven't been across >> the way that they haven't been across history for people. This is like really history for people. This is like really history for people. This is like really interesting to be like, oh, what's interesting to be like, oh, what's interesting to be like, oh, what's happening over there? Like how are we happening over there? Like how are we happening over there? Like how are we supposed to talk about it? So I think supposed to talk about it? So I think supposed to talk about it? So I think there's sort of this like cultural force there's sort of this like cultural force there's sort of this like cultural force to like intervene to like you know to like intervene to like you know to like intervene to like you know anyone who's been through like a serious anyone who's been through like a serious anyone who's been through like a serious illness with someone has seen how much illness with someone has seen how much illness with someone has seen how much sort of like momentum there is toward sort of like momentum there is toward sort of like momentum there is toward like aggressive medical care. I think of like aggressive medical care. I think of like aggressive medical care. I think of it when you were saying like how do you it when you were saying like how do you it when you were saying like how do you choose whether to like you know am I choose whether to like you know am I choose whether to like you know am I giving up am I beating it? I guess in my giving up am I beating it? I guess in my giving up am I beating it? I guess in my mind I sort of think of it as like a mind I sort of think of it as like a mind I sort of think of it as like a thing is happening like a thing is thing is happening like a thing is thing is happening like a thing is happening. It's like now there is happening. It's like now there is happening. It's like now there is Parkinson's here or now this person has Parkinson's here or now this person has Parkinson's here or now this person has metastatic cancer and like it's going to metastatic cancer and like it's going to metastatic cancer and like it's going to play out the way it's going to play out. play out the way it's going to play out. play out the way it's going to play out. And so like how do you like provide And so like how do you like provide And so like how do you like provide healthcare that's going to make that the healthcare that's going to make that the healthcare that's going to make that the best possible like extend life as long best possible like extend life as long best possible like extend life as long as possible, extend functionality like as possible, extend functionality like as possible, extend functionality like as long as possible, help people do the as long as possible, help people do the as long as possible, help people do the things that they want to do that are things that they want to do that are things that they want to do that are important to them. But there is some important to them. But there is some important to them. But there is some like building of like you can sort of like building of like you can sort of like building of like you can sort of choose healthcare within that to kind of choose healthcare within that to kind of choose healthcare within that to kind of like design your healthcare or like make like design your healthcare or like make like design your healthcare or like make your choices around what's important to your choices around what's important to your choices around what's important to you. you. you. >> But that requires like sort of facing up >> But that requires like sort of facing up >> But that requires like sort of facing up to like what is happening, what is to like what is happening, what is to like what is happening, what is possible possible possible >> and then like having the team who's >> and then like having the team who's >> and then like having the team who's taking care of you like also level with taking care of you like also level with taking care of you like also level with you about that with their knowledge and you about that with their knowledge and you about that with their knowledge and experience. I mean there's like two experience. I mean there's like two experience. I mean there's like two things like for I'll like give you a things like for I'll like give you a things like for I'll like give you a practical tip about it but if people are practical tip about it but if people are practical tip about it but if people are like I am facing an illness my family like I am facing an illness my family like I am facing an illness my family member has an illness I want to be able member has an illness I want to be able member has an illness I want to be able to like to like to like >> figure this out but like how on earth am >> figure this out but like how on earth am >> figure this out but like how on earth am I supposed to do that I supposed to do that I supposed to do that >> one like thing people can do is ask for >> one like thing people can do is ask for >> one like thing people can do is ask for a paliotative care team to be part of a paliotative care team to be part of a paliotative care team to be part of their care their care their care >> people get really scared around the word >> people get really scared around the word >> people get really scared around the word paliative so like paliative care hospice paliative so like paliative care hospice paliative so like paliative care hospice is a teeny part of it so hospice is like is a teeny part of it so hospice is like is a teeny part of it so hospice is like paliative care for people who are paliative care for people who are paliative care for people who are actually dying soon. Like you literally actually dying soon. Like you literally actually dying soon. Like you literally have to be certified like very likely have to be certified like very likely have to be certified like very likely more likely than not that you would die more likely than not that you would die more likely than not that you would die within 6 months. That's hospice. Then within 6 months. That's hospice. Then within 6 months. That's hospice. Then there's pal of care which is huge. You there's pal of care which is huge. You there's pal of care which is huge. You could be like a 22-year-old with could be like a 22-year-old with could be like a 22-year-old with Hodkdins lymphoma who's going to be Hodkdins lymphoma who's going to be Hodkdins lymphoma who's going to be cured in 2 years and is like really cured in 2 years and is like really cured in 2 years and is like really struggling and suffering and they'll struggling and suffering and they'll struggling and suffering and they'll take care of you too. Or you could be take care of you too. Or you could be take care of you too. Or you could be someone with heart failure where it goes someone with heart failure where it goes someone with heart failure where it goes up and down and up and down for years up and down and up and down for years up and down and up and down for years and you could have palative care take and you could have palative care take and you could have palative care take care of you. And basically it's it's a care of you. And basically it's it's a care of you. And basically it's it's a concurrent care model alongside whatever concurrent care model alongside whatever concurrent care model alongside whatever other care you're getting alongside the other care you're getting alongside the other care you're getting alongside the oncologist alongside the neurologist or oncologist alongside the neurologist or oncologist alongside the neurologist or whomever is taking care of you. It's whomever is taking care of you. It's whomever is taking care of you. It's actually a medical specialty that only actually a medical specialty that only actually a medical specialty that only was recognized in the US 20 years ago. was recognized in the US 20 years ago. was recognized in the US 20 years ago. It grew up just like a little bit before It grew up just like a little bit before It grew up just like a little bit before that. But they combine like chapency that. But they combine like chapency that. But they combine like chapency nurses social workers like doctors or nurses social workers like doctors or nurses social workers like doctors or other clinicians and then they take care other clinicians and then they take care other clinicians and then they take care of your family too. So like when you of your family too. So like when you of your family too. So like when you walk in the door they're like who else walk in the door they're like who else walk in the door they're like who else is taking care of you? Who else is with is taking care of you? Who else is with is taking care of you? Who else is with you? Hey, does this person need you? Hey, does this person need you? Hey, does this person need something? It's so incredible. It's like something? It's so incredible. It's like something? It's so incredible. It's like if you could just dissolve the health if you could just dissolve the health if you could just dissolve the health care system, which Walter Kronhite said care system, which Walter Kronhite said care system, which Walter Kronhite said is neither healthy nor caring nor a is neither healthy nor caring nor a is neither healthy nor caring nor a system. You would just like start with system. You would just like start with system. You would just like start with palative care and then just like build palative care and then just like build palative care and then just like build everything else around that. There's a everything else around that. There's a everything else around that. There's a lot of like mis misunderstandings about lot of like mis misunderstandings about lot of like mis misunderstandings about what palative care is, but if anybody's what palative care is, but if anybody's what palative care is, but if anybody's struggling and isn't sure where to turn struggling and isn't sure where to turn struggling and isn't sure where to turn for that, they're so incredible. And you for that, they're so incredible. And you for that, they're so incredible. And you could just ask, you just be like, can I could just ask, you just be like, can I could just ask, you just be like, can I have a pal of care specialist be part of have a pal of care specialist be part of have a pal of care specialist be part of what we're doing? what we're doing? what we're doing? >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it feels like sharing that. Yeah, it feels like sharing that. Yeah, it feels like there's all these there's all these there's all these >> hidden things that exist already that >> hidden things that exist already that >> hidden things that exist already that that we miss out. And even even like the that we miss out. And even even like the that we miss out. And even even like the um what was it? The hot widows. um what was it? The hot widows. um what was it? The hot widows. >> Hot young widows. >> Hot young widows. >> Hot young widows. >> Hot young widows. Lovely. Yeah. Like >> Hot young widows. Lovely. Yeah. Like >> Hot young widows. Lovely. Yeah. Like that's that's that's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Even the camp you were talking about >> Even the camp you were talking about >> Even the camp you were talking about earlier when before we started earlier when before we started earlier when before we started recording. recording. recording. >> Yeah. Katie's at Camp Kessum. Yeah. >> Yeah. Katie's at Camp Kessum. Yeah. >> Yeah. Katie's at Camp Kessum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and just there's all these things >> And and just there's all these things >> And and just there's all these things out there that humans are doing so many out there that humans are doing so many out there that humans are doing so many beautiful Yeah. There's so many beautiful Yeah. There's so many beautiful Yeah. There's so many beautiful things to to help people at beautiful things to to help people at beautiful things to to help people at different stages and different stages and different stages and >> you almost don't know and and hopefully >> you almost don't know and and hopefully >> you almost don't know and and hopefully people who are in the position know but people who are in the position know but people who are in the position know but if they don't it's yeah I really if they don't it's yeah I really if they don't it's yeah I really appreciate you sharing that. appreciate you sharing that. appreciate you sharing that. >> I think this is such an important >> I think this is such an important >> I think this is such an important conversation that I feel like you're conversation that I feel like you're conversation that I feel like you're such a big part of like how do we help such a big part of like how do we help such a big part of like how do we help people take back their dignity when people take back their dignity when people take back their dignity when they're dying? Like what does what does they're dying? Like what does what does they're dying? Like what does what does that actually mean? What does that look that actually mean? What does that look that actually mean? What does that look like? like? like? >> I think the the broadstrokes answer is >> I think the the broadstrokes answer is >> I think the the broadstrokes answer is like don't forget that they're a person. like don't forget that they're a person. like don't forget that they're a person. Don't forget that they're still them. Don't forget that they're still them. Don't forget that they're still them. Think about what you would want in that Think about what you would want in that Think about what you would want in that situation. You know, I think like like situation. You know, I think like like situation. You know, I think like like we were saying, it's like illness and we were saying, it's like illness and we were saying, it's like illness and dying can be sort of so flattening of dying can be sort of so flattening of dying can be sort of so flattening of like your humanity, your complexity. like your humanity, your complexity. like your humanity, your complexity. It's so sort of like undignified, right? It's so sort of like undignified, right? It's so sort of like undignified, right? You're like you become sort of like You're like you become sort of like You're like you become sort of like infantilized, you know, or if you're in infantilized, you know, or if you're in infantilized, you know, or if you're in a hospital or if you're somewhere if a hospital or if you're somewhere if a hospital or if you're somewhere if you're in a healthcare facility, you're you're in a healthcare facility, you're you're in a healthcare facility, you're literally naked, you know? You're not literally naked, you know? You're not literally naked, you know? You're not even wearing your own clothes. So just even wearing your own clothes. So just even wearing your own clothes. So just as much as like people can protect your as much as like people can protect your as much as like people can protect your privacy, ask you what's important to privacy, ask you what's important to privacy, ask you what's important to you, make things beautiful like you, make things beautiful like you, make things beautiful like sensually, you know, like there are sensually, you know, like there are sensually, you know, like there are flowers here, there's music here, like flowers here, there's music here, like flowers here, there's music here, like people are touching you, like people are people are touching you, like people are people are touching you, like people are looking you in the eye, like looking you in the eye, like looking you in the eye, like >> I don't know, I could say a million >> I don't know, I could say a million >> I don't know, I could say a million other examples. other examples. other examples. >> I also think like respecting what >> I also think like respecting what >> I also think like respecting what someone like cares about. You know, when someone like cares about. You know, when someone like cares about. You know, when people are dying and they're trying to people are dying and they're trying to people are dying and they're trying to make a difficult decision like Paul did, make a difficult decision like Paul did, make a difficult decision like Paul did, I wrote about this in the end of Paul's I wrote about this in the end of Paul's I wrote about this in the end of Paul's book, but book, but book, but >> he was very, very sick and ultimately >> he was very, very sick and ultimately >> he was very, very sick and ultimately got rushed to the ICU cuz he was got rushed to the ICU cuz he was got rushed to the ICU cuz he was suffering so much and couldn't breathe suffering so much and couldn't breathe suffering so much and couldn't breathe well and then had to make this decision well and then had to make this decision well and then had to make this decision about whether to be intubated, like about whether to be intubated, like about whether to be intubated, like whether to be on a breathing machine. A whether to be on a breathing machine. A whether to be on a breathing machine. A lot of people who are sick end up sort lot of people who are sick end up sort lot of people who are sick end up sort of with a north star of what's really of with a north star of what's really of with a north star of what's really important to them. I want to be with my important to them. I want to be with my important to them. I want to be with my family. I want to be free of pain. I family. I want to be free of pain. I family. I want to be free of pain. I want to make it to my child's want to make it to my child's want to make it to my child's graduation. For Paul, his was I want to graduation. For Paul, his was I want to graduation. For Paul, his was I want to be mentally lucid. Like I want to be be mentally lucid. Like I want to be be mentally lucid. Like I want to be mentally lucid to like be with my family mentally lucid to like be with my family mentally lucid to like be with my family and keep writing as long as I can write. and keep writing as long as I can write. and keep writing as long as I can write. He literally was like writing up until He literally was like writing up until He literally was like writing up until like 2 to 3 days before he died. And so like 2 to 3 days before he died. And so like 2 to 3 days before he died. And so that decision about whether to be that decision about whether to be that decision about whether to be intubated intubated intubated became really clear. became really clear. became really clear. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, where he's like, there's a >> You know, where he's like, there's a >> You know, where he's like, there's a chance if I get intubated then I will chance if I get intubated then I will chance if I get intubated then I will not be extated and instead like we'll not be extated and instead like we'll not be extated and instead like we'll stop life support. And so for him it was stop life support. And so for him it was stop life support. And so for him it was like the way to like maintain his like the way to like maintain his like the way to like maintain his dignity was like or align with his dignity was like or align with his dignity was like or align with his values was like okay if this is the end values was like okay if this is the end values was like okay if this is the end of mental lucidity then this is the end of mental lucidity then this is the end of mental lucidity then this is the end >> and like we'll listen to you know like >> and like we'll listen to you know like >> and like we'll listen to you know like great like we'll make that happen. great like we'll make that happen. great like we'll make that happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which was when that was actually >> Which was when that was actually >> Which was when that was actually happening it was like incredibly happening it was like incredibly happening it was like incredibly confusing incredibly painful incred like confusing incredibly painful incred like confusing incredibly painful incred like so hard but also like so there was a so hard but also like so there was a so hard but also like so there was a grounding thing which was like what's grounding thing which was like what's grounding thing which was like what's important to Paul. When I hear that, I important to Paul. When I hear that, I important to Paul. When I hear that, I think about how usually when we're think about how usually when we're think about how usually when we're losing someone, we're worrying about how losing someone, we're worrying about how losing someone, we're worrying about how it affects us. it affects us. it affects us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they're the one who's going through >> And they're the one who's going through >> And they're the one who's going through loss, too. It's shared. It's shared. It loss, too. It's shared. It's shared. It loss, too. It's shared. It's shared. It is two ways. is two ways. is two ways. >> But it's almost like I think us, all of >> But it's almost like I think us, all of >> But it's almost like I think us, all of us naturally would want the person to us naturally would want the person to us naturally would want the person to stay. Obviously, stay. Obviously, stay. Obviously, >> totally. >> totally. >> totally. >> But there's a independence and decision >> But there's a independence and decision >> But there's a independence and decision that that that >> that person also needs clarity on. And >> that person also needs clarity on. And >> that person also needs clarity on. And like you said, it may be yes, I want to like you said, it may be yes, I want to like you said, it may be yes, I want to do this, but his one was so specific to do this, but his one was so specific to do this, but his one was so specific to his totally helpless and mission in the his totally helpless and mission in the his totally helpless and mission in the world. world. world. >> Totally. And at the same time like >> Totally. And at the same time like >> Totally. And at the same time like medically like families can go through medically like families can go through medically like families can go through real trauma like literal PTSD from like real trauma like literal PTSD from like real trauma like literal PTSD from like participating in medical care or having participating in medical care or having participating in medical care or having like their loved one get care that like their loved one get care that like their loved one get care that wasn't in line with their values or that wasn't in line with their values or that wasn't in line with their values or that they ultimately thought like oh that did they ultimately thought like oh that did they ultimately thought like oh that did cause them unnecessary suffering. So cause them unnecessary suffering. So cause them unnecessary suffering. So it's like there's always a trade-off you it's like there's always a trade-off you it's like there's always a trade-off you know like know like know like >> it's like it can hurt everybody. Do you >> it's like it can hurt everybody. Do you >> it's like it can hurt everybody. Do you believe anything needs to change in the believe anything needs to change in the believe anything needs to change in the standard protocol of how doctors deliver standard protocol of how doctors deliver standard protocol of how doctors deliver terminal news? terminal news? terminal news? >> Um, totally. When I was in medical >> Um, totally. When I was in medical >> Um, totally. When I was in medical school, which was 20 years ago, they school, which was 20 years ago, they school, which was 20 years ago, they were just starting to teach like, hey, were just starting to teach like, hey, were just starting to teach like, hey, make sure you attend to the emotion in make sure you attend to the emotion in make sure you attend to the emotion in the room. So, like if someone is crying, the room. So, like if someone is crying, the room. So, like if someone is crying, pause, allow some space. It'll feel like pause, allow some space. It'll feel like pause, allow some space. It'll feel like a long time to you, doesn't feel like a a long time to you, doesn't feel like a a long time to you, doesn't feel like a long time to them. And then you can even long time to them. And then you can even long time to them. And then you can even say, I see the tears in your eyes. and say, I see the tears in your eyes. and say, I see the tears in your eyes. and just leave it where you can say this just leave it where you can say this just leave it where you can say this looks like it's feeling really sad. You looks like it's feeling really sad. You looks like it's feeling really sad. You know what I mean? Like we were learning know what I mean? Like we were learning know what I mean? Like we were learning those skills. It was really interesting those skills. It was really interesting those skills. It was really interesting because they were teaching it to us like because they were teaching it to us like because they were teaching it to us like they were skills because they actually they were skills because they actually they were skills because they actually are. And then you have a little are. And then you have a little are. And then you have a little pneummonic about like attend to the pneummonic about like attend to the pneummonic about like attend to the emotion in the room but it's real like emotion in the room but it's real like emotion in the room but it's real like it's you it becomes part of you. it's you it becomes part of you. it's you it becomes part of you. >> Um I think you know there was a study of >> Um I think you know there was a study of >> Um I think you know there was a study of doctors that said half of doctors said doctors that said half of doctors said doctors that said half of doctors said they had like given a prognosis that was they had like given a prognosis that was they had like given a prognosis that was rosier than what their actual medical rosier than what their actual medical rosier than what their actual medical opinion was. So interesting. It's like opinion was. So interesting. It's like opinion was. So interesting. It's like even in the hospital, it's like you sort even in the hospital, it's like you sort even in the hospital, it's like you sort of make this assumption of like what of make this assumption of like what of make this assumption of like what hope means to people. Like hope means hope means to people. Like hope means hope means to people. Like hope means longer life. So I'm going to say that longer life. So I'm going to say that longer life. So I'm going to say that I'm going to keep them on the outer I'm going to keep them on the outer I'm going to keep them on the outer bounds of what could be possible. But I bounds of what could be possible. But I bounds of what could be possible. But I think what many people respond to like think what many people respond to like think what many people respond to like what I've ended up learning is a really what I've ended up learning is a really what I've ended up learning is a really good way to share with patients or even good way to share with patients or even good way to share with patients or even frame it to yourself is thinking a about frame it to yourself is thinking a about frame it to yourself is thinking a about like prognostication for example as a like prognostication for example as a like prognostication for example as a range. So like instead of saying like range. So like instead of saying like range. So like instead of saying like you have 6 months to live because like you have 6 months to live because like you have 6 months to live because like that's the median in the studies, you that's the median in the studies, you that's the median in the studies, you say like it's likely a few months to a say like it's likely a few months to a say like it's likely a few months to a few years which is like broader but more few years which is like broader but more few years which is like broader but more accurate really and that's like enough accurate really and that's like enough accurate really and that's like enough information for someone to decide like information for someone to decide like information for someone to decide like do they want to have a baby like during do they want to have a baby like during do they want to have a baby like during this illness or not you know and then this illness or not you know and then this illness or not you know and then similarly another way that we've been similarly another way that we've been similarly another way that we've been trained to tell people that we're trained to tell people that we're trained to tell people that we're training our students to tell people is training our students to tell people is training our students to tell people is a model where you say you share the best a model where you say you share the best a model where you say you share the best case the worst case and the most likely case the worst case and the most likely case the worst case and the most likely case and actually people can have a lot case and actually people can have a lot case and actually people can have a lot people get a lot of information from people get a lot of information from people get a lot of information from that where they can decide like how much that where they can decide like how much that where they can decide like how much risk do I want to take to aim for the risk do I want to take to aim for the risk do I want to take to aim for the best to prepare for the worst best to prepare for the worst best to prepare for the worst >> and then they're kind of like well I'm >> and then they're kind of like well I'm >> and then they're kind of like well I'm still allowing space for the best and in still allowing space for the best and in still allowing space for the best and in the meantime I'll make sure my family the meantime I'll make sure my family the meantime I'll make sure my family knows what I want when I'm gone. knows what I want when I'm gone. knows what I want when I'm gone. >> So like I think like doctors are being >> So like I think like doctors are being >> So like I think like doctors are being >> taught to allow just like space space >> taught to allow just like space space >> taught to allow just like space space space and more like accuracy. space and more like accuracy. space and more like accuracy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really helpful to hear. That's helpful to hear helpful to hear. That's helpful to hear helpful to hear. That's helpful to hear how humans process. how humans process. how humans process. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's also like not just one conversation >> It's also like not just one conversation >> It's also like not just one conversation like like like >> the first time you hear the news like >> the first time you hear the news like >> the first time you hear the news like then you don't hear anything else, then you don't hear anything else, then you don't hear anything else, right? Then you have to hear it again. right? Then you have to hear it again. right? Then you have to hear it again. You know, you heard it from different You know, you heard it from different You know, you heard it from different people. But yes, it needs to change and people. But yes, it needs to change and people. But yes, it needs to change and it is changing. Thank goodness. it is changing. Thank goodness. it is changing. Thank goodness. >> I think right now in the world we're >> I think right now in the world we're >> I think right now in the world we're talking a lot about aging well. talking a lot about aging well. talking a lot about aging well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's your sense of what it means to >> What's your sense of what it means to >> What's your sense of what it means to die well? die well? die well? >> I think that living well is the same. I >> I think that living well is the same. I >> I think that living well is the same. I think like the way to not be afraid of think like the way to not be afraid of think like the way to not be afraid of dying is to feel that you've had a dying is to feel that you've had a dying is to feel that you've had a meaningful life. That's what I think. I meaningful life. That's what I think. I meaningful life. That's what I think. I think that's what ended up being true think that's what ended up being true think that's what ended up being true for Paul. And I'll just tell you like for Paul. And I'll just tell you like for Paul. And I'll just tell you like something beautiful that like Paul felt something beautiful that like Paul felt something beautiful that like Paul felt that I hope I feel too cuz I also think that I hope I feel too cuz I also think that I hope I feel too cuz I also think this sort of encompasses like a good this sort of encompasses like a good this sort of encompasses like a good death is like similarly if you're lucky death is like similarly if you're lucky death is like similarly if you're lucky enough to like have the tools to like enough to like have the tools to like enough to like have the tools to like build a life that you felt is build a life that you felt is build a life that you felt is meaningful. I think Paul ended up meaningful. I think Paul ended up meaningful. I think Paul ended up feeling like, not to sound cheesy, but I feeling like, not to sound cheesy, but I feeling like, not to sound cheesy, but I love this. He ended up feeling, I'm not love this. He ended up feeling, I'm not love this. He ended up feeling, I'm not dying feeling that I'm losing dying feeling that I'm losing dying feeling that I'm losing everything. I'm dying feeling that I everything. I'm dying feeling that I everything. I'm dying feeling that I have everything, have everything, have everything, which I think is so cool, you know. which I think is so cool, you know. which I think is so cool, you know. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, I don't know. Hasn't happened to me >> So, I don't know. Hasn't happened to me >> So, I don't know. Hasn't happened to me yet, so it'll be a surprise. That's a yet, so it'll be a surprise. That's a yet, so it'll be a surprise. That's a really powerful answer and really powerful answer and really powerful answer and quite a unfathomable mindset because you quite a unfathomable mindset because you quite a unfathomable mindset because you could argue he he could have felt he could argue he he could have felt he could argue he he could have felt he didn't have everything like he hadn't didn't have everything like he hadn't didn't have everything like he hadn't had Katie yet and you know like hadn't had Katie yet and you know like hadn't had Katie yet and you know like hadn't had that experience and which seems like had that experience and which seems like had that experience and which seems like the natural thing we all feel at that the natural thing we all feel at that the natural thing we all feel at that time where it's like I haven't done this time where it's like I haven't done this time where it's like I haven't done this yet or haven't seen this or want to make yet or haven't seen this or want to make yet or haven't seen this or want to make it to this and sort of really say it to this and sort of really say it to this and sort of really say >> that will always be true. >> that will always be true. >> that will always be true. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that'll be true for everyone. >> that'll be true for everyone. >> that'll be true for everyone. >> But he was able to say he had >> But he was able to say he had >> But he was able to say he had everything. He felt that. everything. He felt that. everything. He felt that. >> Yeah. or enough like enough >> Yeah. or enough like enough >> Yeah. or enough like enough >> enough. Yeah, enough. Yeah, >> enough. Yeah, enough. Yeah, >> enough. Yeah, enough. Yeah, >> I struggled with it later too and then a >> I struggled with it later too and then a >> I struggled with it later too and then a friend was like, "What if it was friend was like, "What if it was friend was like, "What if it was enough?" And I was like, "What if it was enough?" And I was like, "What if it was enough?" And I was like, "What if it was enough?" enough?" enough?" >> Lucy, thank you so much. >> Lucy, thank you so much. >> Lucy, thank you so much. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for having me. >> So grateful. Truly, I'm so grateful to >> So grateful. Truly, I'm so grateful to >> So grateful. Truly, I'm so grateful to meet you. meet you. meet you. >> So grateful for your openness. So >> So grateful for your openness. So >> So grateful for your openness. So grateful to learn about Katie and Paul grateful to learn about Katie and Paul grateful to learn about Katie and Paul and and yourself. And and and yourself. And and and yourself. And >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> I'm truly in awe of your resilience and >> I'm truly in awe of your resilience and >> I'm truly in awe of your resilience and courage. courage. courage. >> That's like wild to hear you say that. >> That's like wild to hear you say that. >> That's like wild to hear you say that. It's true. I really mean it. It's It's It's true. I really mean it. It's It's It's true. I really mean it. It's It's >> Yeah. What a treat. I mean, truly. Yeah. >> Yeah. What a treat. I mean, truly. Yeah. >> Yeah. What a treat. I mean, truly. Yeah. >> No, it's it's melted my heart. >> No, it's it's melted my heart. >> No, it's it's melted my heart. >> Truly, I really mean that. >> Truly, I really mean that. >> Truly, I really mean that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Pleasure. Yeah. Such a joy. >> Pleasure. Yeah. Such a joy. >> Pleasure. Yeah. Such a joy. >> If you love this episode, you'll love my >> If you love this episode, you'll love my >> If you love this episode, you'll love my conversation with Malala Yusfsai on how conversation with Malala Yusfsai on how conversation with Malala Yusfsai on how she transformed extreme adversity into she transformed extreme adversity into she transformed extreme adversity into global purpose. I was hanging out with global purpose. I was hanging out with global purpose. I was hanging out with some friends and what was like supposed some friends and what was like supposed some friends and what was like supposed to be a fun night just took a sharp turn to be a fun night just took a sharp turn to be a fun night just took a sharp turn and and and immediately I froze.