#1 Communication Expert: "Speak Like THIS & It Will Transform Your Relationships!" | Leslie John

Have you ever walked away from a Have you ever walked away from a conversation wondering if you shared too conversation wondering if you shared too conversation wondering if you shared too much? Or have you stayed silent in much? Or have you stayed silent in much? Or have you stayed silent in conversations to not share because you conversations to not share because you conversations to not share because you were afraid of what your partner or your were afraid of what your partner or your were afraid of what your partner or your friend might think of you? If you've friend might think of you? If you've friend might think of you? If you've ever wondered what you should share to ever wondered what you should share to ever wondered what you should share to your boss, your co-worker, or your your boss, your co-worker, or your your boss, your co-worker, or your intimate partner to make sure you have intimate partner to make sure you have intimate partner to make sure you have the best relationship, this conversation the best relationship, this conversation the best relationship, this conversation is for you. is for you. is for you. >> In long-term relationships, why do they >> In long-term relationships, why do they >> In long-term relationships, why do they fall apart? Well, there was a study that fall apart? Well, there was a study that fall apart? Well, there was a study that looked at people who have loved each looked at people who have loved each looked at people who have loved each other for years and years and years. other for years and years and years. other for years and years and years. They brought the couples into the lab They brought the couples into the lab They brought the couples into the lab and they got each person to try to guess and they got each person to try to guess and they got each person to try to guess what their spouse was thinking and what their spouse was thinking and what their spouse was thinking and feeling and they were wrong 80% of the feeling and they were wrong 80% of the feeling and they were wrong 80% of the time. time. time. >> Really? She's a Harvard Business School >> Really? She's a Harvard Business School >> Really? She's a Harvard Business School professor, award-winning researcher and professor, award-winning researcher and professor, award-winning researcher and author who has been featured in the New author who has been featured in the New author who has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and The Economist, where she teaches the art The Economist, where she teaches the art The Economist, where she teaches the art and science of communication. Leslie, and science of communication. Leslie, and science of communication. Leslie, thank you so much for being here. thank you so much for being here. thank you so much for being here. Another thing that really compounds the Another thing that really compounds the Another thing that really compounds the issue here is a concept called mind issue here is a concept called mind issue here is a concept called mind readading expectations. It's really readading expectations. It's really readading expectations. It's really insidious because those of us who have insidious because those of us who have insidious because those of us who have mind readading expectations, we mind readading expectations, we mind readading expectations, we implicitly believe that our partners implicitly believe that our partners implicitly believe that our partners should just know how we feel. They should just know how we feel. They should just know how we feel. They should just know that we had a bad day should just know that we had a bad day should just know that we had a bad day and that we're upset just by like the and that we're upset just by like the and that we're upset just by like the way we look or something. When they way we look or something. When they way we look or something. When they don't respond, then we get upset. When don't respond, then we get upset. When don't respond, then we get upset. When if we had just said something, I had a if we had just said something, I had a if we had just said something, I had a shitty day. I'm exhausted. Can I have a shitty day. I'm exhausted. Can I have a shitty day. I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right? What happens to a person hug? Right? What happens to a person hug? Right? What happens to a person inside of them when they decide not to inside of them when they decide not to inside of them when they decide not to share what's really going on? When those share what's really going on? When those share what's really going on? When those things start to pile up. things start to pile up. things start to pile up. >> Well, okay. So, the first >> Welcome back everyone to the School of >> Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Today we have the Greatness. Today we have the Greatness. Today we have the inspirational Leslie John in the house. inspirational Leslie John in the house. inspirational Leslie John in the house. And she's a Harvard Business School And she's a Harvard Business School And she's a Harvard Business School professor, award-winning researcher, and professor, award-winning researcher, and professor, award-winning researcher, and author who has been featured in the New author who has been featured in the New author who has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and The Economist, where she teaches the art The Economist, where she teaches the art The Economist, where she teaches the art and science of communication so that you and science of communication so that you and science of communication so that you can speak with clarity, honesty, and can speak with clarity, honesty, and can speak with clarity, honesty, and meaningful impact. Leslie, thank you so meaningful impact. Leslie, thank you so meaningful impact. Leslie, thank you so much for being here. Excited. much for being here. Excited. much for being here. Excited. >> Thanks for having me. I'm so jazzed. >> Thanks for having me. I'm so jazzed. >> Thanks for having me. I'm so jazzed. >> I'm excited because you've been studying >> I'm excited because you've been studying >> I'm excited because you've been studying the art of underssharing and oversharing the art of underssharing and oversharing the art of underssharing and oversharing and the power of and the power of and the power of why we should be more vulnerable in our why we should be more vulnerable in our why we should be more vulnerable in our sharing sharing sharing >> and share more versus being silent. And >> and share more versus being silent. And >> and share more versus being silent. And when we are silent in relationships, in when we are silent in relationships, in when we are silent in relationships, in uh relationships with people in our uh relationships with people in our uh relationships with people in our lives, it actually can hurt us. And I'm lives, it actually can hurt us. And I'm lives, it actually can hurt us. And I'm curious, why does it hurt us being curious, why does it hurt us being curious, why does it hurt us being silent in relationships, undersharing or silent in relationships, undersharing or silent in relationships, undersharing or not being vulnerable versus oversharing not being vulnerable versus oversharing not being vulnerable versus oversharing in relationships? in relationships? in relationships? >> Right. Right. Right. So there is such a >> Right. Right. Right. So there is such a >> Right. Right. Right. So there is such a thing as oversharing. like tmi is alive thing as oversharing. like tmi is alive thing as oversharing. like tmi is alive and well, but again and again I found and well, but again and again I found and well, but again and again I found that the greater issue is under sharing. that the greater issue is under sharing. that the greater issue is under sharing. We worry way too much about TMI and we We worry way too much about TMI and we We worry way too much about TMI and we don't worry enough about TLI too little don't worry enough about TLI too little don't worry enough about TLI too little information and where this so information and where this so information and where this so relationships is where this it plays out relationships is where this it plays out relationships is where this it plays out in all domains of life but in in all domains of life but in in all domains of life but in relationships relationships relationships one of the things we see it's really one of the things we see it's really one of the things we see it's really sneaky because when you say like share sneaky because when you say like share sneaky because when you say like share more open up we're like yeah yeah share more open up we're like yeah yeah share more open up we're like yeah yeah share open up it sounds great right but as I open up it sounds great right but as I open up it sounds great right but as I wrote the book the the writing the book wrote the book the the writing the book wrote the book the the writing the book itself for me was amazing therapy I love itself for me was amazing therapy I love itself for me was amazing therapy I love my therapist, but like it was it it it my therapist, but like it was it it it my therapist, but like it was it it it it changed me. Um, and one of the ways it changed me. Um, and one of the ways it changed me. Um, and one of the ways it really changed me was what I learned it really changed me was what I learned it really changed me was what I learned about in relationships. So, um, about in relationships. So, um, about in relationships. So, um, in long-term relationships, in long-term relationships, in long-term relationships, why do they fall apart? Well, they it's why do they fall apart? Well, they it's why do they fall apart? Well, they it's not usually some dramatic affair. I not usually some dramatic affair. I not usually some dramatic affair. I mean, that can happen and it's horrible, mean, that can happen and it's horrible, mean, that can happen and it's horrible, but they more often they break down but they more often they break down but they more often they break down because of a slow distancing. It's kind because of a slow distancing. It's kind because of a slow distancing. It's kind of like you start off, you know, the old of like you start off, you know, the old of like you start off, you know, the old analogy, you've got your two boats and analogy, you've got your two boats and analogy, you've got your two boats and you're like a degree off and so at the you're like a degree off and so at the you're like a degree off and so at the beginning and then and then if you never beginning and then and then if you never beginning and then and then if you never course correct, you just end up you do course correct, you just end up you do course correct, you just end up you do nothing. nothing. nothing. >> And is this in friendships, >> And is this in friendships, >> And is this in friendships, co-orker relationships or intimate co-orker relationships or intimate co-orker relationships or intimate relationships? It is I mean all relationships? It is I mean all relationships? It is I mean all relationships but I would say relationships but I would say relationships but I would say particularly romantic relationships and particularly romantic relationships and particularly romantic relationships and here's the reason. So what happens is here's the reason. So what happens is here's the reason. So what happens is when we are in a long-term romantic when we are in a long-term romantic when we are in a long-term romantic relationship we do know the person relationship we do know the person relationship we do know the person better with time right the longer you've better with time right the longer you've better with time right the longer you've been with someone you the more you know been with someone you the more you know been with someone you the more you know their values their traits. The problem their values their traits. The problem their values their traits. The problem though is that our confidence that we though is that our confidence that we though is that our confidence that we know them outmatches outpaces our actual know them outmatches outpaces our actual know them outmatches outpaces our actual knowledge. Okay. knowledge. Okay. knowledge. Okay. >> And that's where the problem begins. >> And that's where the problem begins. >> And that's where the problem begins. Right? Because if you think you know Right? Because if you think you know Right? Because if you think you know your partner better than you actually your partner better than you actually your partner better than you actually do, then you assume you know. You stop do, then you assume you know. You stop do, then you assume you know. You stop asking. You do the same. You assume they asking. You do the same. You assume they asking. You do the same. You assume they know you. You stop sharing. And that's know you. You stop sharing. And that's know you. You stop sharing. And that's of course where the problem begins of course where the problem begins of course where the problem begins because if you stop sharing, uh you just because if you stop sharing, uh you just because if you stop sharing, uh you just stop learning about each other and then stop learning about each other and then stop learning about each other and then then you get all these kind of little then you get all these kind of little then you get all these kind of little little spats that emerge. And little spats that emerge. And little spats that emerge. And >> so you need to keep oversharing. The >> so you need to keep oversharing. The >> so you need to keep oversharing. The longer you're in a relationship, longer you're in a relationship, longer you're in a relationship, >> you need to keep asking, keep answering. >> you need to keep asking, keep answering. >> you need to keep asking, keep answering. And and here to make it more concrete um And and here to make it more concrete um And and here to make it more concrete um when there was a study that looked at when there was a study that looked at when there was a study that looked at people who have been loved each other people who have been loved each other people who have been loved each other for years and years and years. So like for years and years and years. So like for years and years and years. So like the average age the average length of the average age the average length of the average age the average length of marriage was like 12 years. marriage was like 12 years. marriage was like 12 years. >> And what they did was they brought the >> And what they did was they brought the >> And what they did was they brought the couples into the lab and they got each couples into the lab and they got each couples into the lab and they got each person to try to guess what the other person to try to guess what the other person to try to guess what the other person was what their spouse was person was what their spouse was person was what their spouse was thinking and feeling. And they were thinking and feeling. And they were thinking and feeling. And they were wrong 80% of the time. wrong 80% of the time. wrong 80% of the time. >> Really, >> Really, >> Really, >> these are people who have loved each >> these are people who have loved each >> these are people who have loved each other for 12 years. Like neither of other for 12 years. Like neither of other for 12 years. Like neither of neither of my marriages has last has neither of my marriages has last has neither of my marriages has last has been that long yet, you know, and like been that long yet, you know, and like been that long yet, you know, and like and and they just and but they they and and they just and but they they and and they just and but they they thought they knew, right? And so another thought they knew, right? And so another thought they knew, right? And so another thing that really compounds the issue thing that really compounds the issue thing that really compounds the issue here is a concept called mind readading here is a concept called mind readading here is a concept called mind readading expectations, which is as it sounds, I expectations, which is as it sounds, I expectations, which is as it sounds, I mean, it sounds crazy. It's like, of mean, it sounds crazy. It's like, of mean, it sounds crazy. It's like, of course, you can't read my mind when you course, you can't read my mind when you course, you can't read my mind when you say it out loud like that. However, it's say it out loud like that. However, it's say it out loud like that. However, it's really insidious because those of us who really insidious because those of us who really insidious because those of us who have mind readading expectations, we have mind readading expectations, we have mind readading expectations, we implicitly believe that our partners implicitly believe that our partners implicitly believe that our partners should just know how we feel. They should just know how we feel. They should just know how we feel. They should just know that we had a bad day should just know that we had a bad day should just know that we had a bad day and that we're upset just by like the and that we're upset just by like the and that we're upset just by like the way we look or something. And so then way we look or something. And so then way we look or something. And so then when because our partner can't read our when because our partner can't read our when because our partner can't read our mind, when they don't respond, then we mind, when they don't respond, then we mind, when they don't respond, then we get upset and then then we do the get upset and then then we do the get upset and then then we do the stonewalling, right? So then it's just stonewalling, right? So then it's just stonewalling, right? So then it's just this compounding of errors when if we this compounding of errors when if we this compounding of errors when if we had just said something, I had a day. had just said something, I had a day. had just said something, I had a day. I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right? I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right? I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right? We express our needs. And so the people We express our needs. And so the people We express our needs. And so the people that the people have a high mind that the people have a high mind that the people have a high mind readading expectations, it's actually a readading expectations, it's actually a readading expectations, it's actually a trait. Interestingly, it's pretty trait. Interestingly, it's pretty trait. Interestingly, it's pretty stable. Some are high, some are low. I'm stable. Some are high, some are low. I'm stable. Some are high, some are low. I'm high. Um high. Um high. Um so the the um the people who have the so the the um the people who have the so the the um the people who have the they it's associated with lower they it's associated with lower they it's associated with lower relationship quality, relationship quality, relationship quality, >> lower length of relationships. But >> lower length of relationships. But >> lower length of relationships. But there's hope because self-awareness, there's hope because self-awareness, there's hope because self-awareness, right? There's actually a scale. I have right? There's actually a scale. I have right? There's actually a scale. I have one on my website that you can assess one on my website that you can assess one on my website that you can assess yourself. I am very high on it. But once yourself. I am very high on it. But once yourself. I am very high on it. But once I learned that and there questions like I learned that and there questions like I learned that and there questions like my partner should just know what I'm my partner should just know what I'm my partner should just know what I'm thinking. My partner should respond thinking. My partner should respond thinking. My partner should respond without me having to say anything. And without me having to say anything. And without me having to say anything. And once those items were presented to me so once those items were presented to me so once those items were presented to me so starkly starkly starkly and I filled it out. I said, "You have and I filled it out. I said, "You have and I filled it out. I said, "You have very high mind readading expectations." very high mind readading expectations." very high mind readading expectations." I changed a lot. I realized I need to I changed a lot. I realized I need to I changed a lot. I realized I need to say what feels like overcommunicating is say what feels like overcommunicating is say what feels like overcommunicating is just communicating, just communicating, just communicating, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And and and my marriage is like it was >> And and and my marriage is like it was >> And and and my marriage is like it was already good. Second marriage. I had a already good. Second marriage. I had a already good. Second marriage. I had a starter marriage. So, the second one is starter marriage. So, the second one is starter marriage. So, the second one is like not making the same mistakes and um like not making the same mistakes and um like not making the same mistakes and um and it it's just gotten so much richer. and it it's just gotten so much richer. and it it's just gotten so much richer. >> Wow. Okay. So, you've been married >> Wow. Okay. So, you've been married >> Wow. Okay. So, you've been married twice. Y you're you're still married. twice. Y you're you're still married. twice. Y you're you're still married. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But how long were you married for the >> But how long were you married for the >> But how long were you married for the first marriage? first marriage? first marriage? >> Five years. >> Five years. >> Five years. >> Okay. And how old were you when you got >> Okay. And how old were you when you got >> Okay. And how old were you when you got married? married? married? >> 28. >> 28. >> 28. >> 28. Five years. So, divorced around 33, >> 28. Five years. So, divorced around 33, >> 28. Five years. So, divorced around 33, I guess, right? I guess, right? I guess, right? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> why did that >> why did that >> why did that marriage end based on the research marriage end based on the research marriage end based on the research you've done in your book? you've done in your book? you've done in your book? >> Yeah. Now that you have wisdom, I'm sure >> Yeah. Now that you have wisdom, I'm sure >> Yeah. Now that you have wisdom, I'm sure it's a collection of things. This isn't it's a collection of things. This isn't it's a collection of things. This isn't a therapy session, but why do you feel a therapy session, but why do you feel a therapy session, but why do you feel like based on this conversation and this like based on this conversation and this like based on this conversation and this research? research? research? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What would you have done differently >> What would you have done differently >> What would you have done differently >> even if it was still the wrong match or >> even if it was still the wrong match or >> even if it was still the wrong match or there wasn't the right fit or whatever? there wasn't the right fit or whatever? there wasn't the right fit or whatever? I mean, maybe some other stuff happened, I mean, maybe some other stuff happened, I mean, maybe some other stuff happened, but but but >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> What would you have done differently >> What would you have done differently >> What would you have done differently before getting married to see if it was before getting married to see if it was before getting married to see if it was the right thing? the right thing? the right thing? >> Definitely. I mean, looking back, well, >> Definitely. I mean, looking back, well, >> Definitely. I mean, looking back, well, number one is I was too young, 28. I did number one is I was too young, 28. I did number one is I was too young, 28. I did not have the emotional understanding of not have the emotional understanding of not have the emotional understanding of myself that I do now. A lot of people do myself that I do now. A lot of people do myself that I do now. A lot of people do when they're that age, but I did not when they're that age, but I did not when they're that age, but I did not emotions. I love my family. You know, emotions. I love my family. You know, emotions. I love my family. You know, you're like you're starting a sentence you're like you're starting a sentence you're like you're starting a sentence to buff them up. Um I did have a happy to buff them up. Um I did have a happy to buff them up. Um I did have a happy childhood, but we did not talk about childhood, but we did not talk about childhood, but we did not talk about feelings or emotions. And so I I I never feelings or emotions. And so I I I never feelings or emotions. And so I I I never >> I remember when I was going through a >> I remember when I was going through a >> I remember when I was going through a divorce, the divorce in my 30s, and my divorce, the divorce in my 30s, and my divorce, the divorce in my 30s, and my therapist said, "How do you feel?" And I therapist said, "How do you feel?" And I therapist said, "How do you feel?" And I started listing cognitions, like started listing cognitions, like started listing cognitions, like thoughts. And he's like, "Those aren't thoughts. And he's like, "Those aren't thoughts. And he's like, "Those aren't feelings." And I'm like, "Well, okay. feelings." And I'm like, "Well, okay. feelings." And I'm like, "Well, okay. I'm sad." He's like, "Can you be more I'm sad." He's like, "Can you be more I'm sad." He's like, "Can you be more specific?" Finally, he handed me this specific?" Finally, he handed me this specific?" Finally, he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which thing called an emotions wheel, which thing called an emotions wheel, which helps you. It's in my book. It helps you helps you. It's in my book. It helps you helps you. It's in my book. It helps you realize the multiplicity of emotions and realize the multiplicity of emotions and realize the multiplicity of emotions and it helps you understand yourself better. it helps you understand yourself better. it helps you understand yourself better. So, so, so that's kind of where like why So, so, so that's kind of where like why So, so, so that's kind of where like why I say I was I was too young emotionally. I say I was I was too young emotionally. I say I was I was too young emotionally. >> So, you didn't feel emotions >> So, you didn't feel emotions >> So, you didn't feel emotions >> or you blocked the emotions. >> or you blocked the emotions. >> or you blocked the emotions. >> I thought that was a joke. Sorry. I did >> I thought that was a joke. Sorry. I did >> I thought that was a joke. Sorry. I did feel emotions. Everybody has emotions, feel emotions. Everybody has emotions, feel emotions. Everybody has emotions, >> but you couldn't you couldn't >> but you couldn't you couldn't >> but you couldn't you couldn't communicate. communicate. communicate. >> I couldn't communicate. I didn't >> I couldn't communicate. I didn't >> I couldn't communicate. I didn't understand my emotions. I didn't honor understand my emotions. I didn't honor understand my emotions. I didn't honor my emotions. I didn't validate them. If my emotions. I didn't validate them. If my emotions. I didn't validate them. If I was feeling something uncomfortable, I was feeling something uncomfortable, I was feeling something uncomfortable, I'd be like I just dismiss and not even I'd be like I just dismiss and not even I'd be like I just dismiss and not even engage with them. Um I didn't have an engage with them. Um I didn't have an engage with them. Um I didn't have an emotional v vocabulary. I didn't know emotional v vocabulary. I didn't know emotional v vocabulary. I didn't know the differences between like the differences between like the differences between like disappointment, frustration, anger, disappointment, frustration, anger, disappointment, frustration, anger, sadness. Like it was all like bad, good, sadness. Like it was all like bad, good, sadness. Like it was all like bad, good, right? Like I'm a recovering emotional right? Like I'm a recovering emotional right? Like I'm a recovering emotional illiterate. and and so that that didn't illiterate. and and so that that didn't illiterate. and and so that that didn't help matters. I mean, so I guess the help matters. I mean, so I guess the help matters. I mean, so I guess the main reason is me in that like these I main reason is me in that like these I main reason is me in that like these I would never would never would never >> he's a wonderful person but I never I >> he's a wonderful person but I never I >> he's a wonderful person but I never I never should have married him. Um never should have married him. Um never should have married him. Um >> and I think that >> and I think that >> and I think that part of this emotional understanding of part of this emotional understanding of part of this emotional understanding of oneself like I'm a huge EQ is like where oneself like I'm a huge EQ is like where oneself like I'm a huge EQ is like where it's at. IQ is great, but says Harvard it's at. IQ is great, but says Harvard it's at. IQ is great, but says Harvard professor truly like EQ is if I could professor truly like EQ is if I could professor truly like EQ is if I could choose one or the other, hands down, I choose one or the other, hands down, I choose one or the other, hands down, I would ch choose EQ. And I wouldn't have would ch choose EQ. And I wouldn't have would ch choose EQ. And I wouldn't have said that 10 years ago. said that 10 years ago. said that 10 years ago. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Um, so >> Um, so >> Um, so >> it's so interesting because most of my >> it's so interesting because most of my >> it's so interesting because most of my childhood I probably had the lowest IQ childhood I probably had the lowest IQ childhood I probably had the lowest IQ of everyone, of everyone, of everyone, >> but the highest EQ. >> but the highest EQ. >> but the highest EQ. >> Well, I learned through suffering and >> Well, I learned through suffering and >> Well, I learned through suffering and feeling like I was so stupid. You know, feeling like I was so stupid. You know, feeling like I was so stupid. You know, I was in the bottom of my class all I was in the bottom of my class all I was in the bottom of my class all through like elementary school, high through like elementary school, high through like elementary school, high school, college. I was in the bottom cuz school, college. I was in the bottom cuz school, college. I was in the bottom cuz they would great they would rank us. Oh they would great they would rank us. Oh they would great they would rank us. Oh my god. my god. my god. >> So I would always see myself in the >> So I would always see myself in the >> So I would always see myself in the bottom four. So it just reconfirmed, oh, bottom four. So it just reconfirmed, oh, bottom four. So it just reconfirmed, oh, I'm stupid. I'm stupid. I'm stupid. >> I don't, you know, I can't figure this >> I don't, you know, I can't figure this >> I don't, you know, I can't figure this out. No matter how hard I tried, it was out. No matter how hard I tried, it was out. No matter how hard I tried, it was like, I'm not going to be smart. like, I'm not going to be smart. like, I'm not going to be smart. >> But then what I would do is I would just >> But then what I would do is I would just >> But then what I would do is I would just observe people all day long. observe people all day long. observe people all day long. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And study people's behaviors and watch >> And study people's behaviors and watch >> And study people's behaviors and watch why are they reacting that way? And I why are they reacting that way? And I why are they reacting that way? And I would just sit there and you people would just sit there and you people would just sit there and you people watch all day in school, watch all day in school, watch all day in school, >> all day out of school. I would just sit >> all day out of school. I would just sit >> all day out of school. I would just sit there and, you know, not like a creeper, there and, you know, not like a creeper, there and, you know, not like a creeper, but I would just be like observing but I would just be like observing but I would just be like observing people all day long. people all day long. people all day long. >> Yeah. And I was constantly reflecting on >> Yeah. And I was constantly reflecting on >> Yeah. And I was constantly reflecting on why did they respond this way? why did they respond this way? why did they respond this way? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when I asked this question, why did >> And when I asked this question, why did >> And when I asked this question, why did they do this with their face? Why did they do this with their face? Why did they do this with their face? Why did they lean in? Why did they? they lean in? Why did they? they lean in? Why did they? >> And so I became a really good observer >> And so I became a really good observer >> And so I became a really good observer and a really good listener. and a really good listener. and a really good listener. >> And so it's interesting because it's >> And so it's interesting because it's >> And so it's interesting because it's talking about the power of oversharing talking about the power of oversharing talking about the power of oversharing and revealing yourself, but I became a and revealing yourself, but I became a and revealing yourself, but I became a really good listener and like just kept really good listener and like just kept really good listener and like just kept following up. Tell me more. Tell me following up. Tell me more. Tell me following up. Tell me more. Tell me more. Why this? Why that? Mhm. more. Why this? Why that? Mhm. more. Why this? Why that? Mhm. >> And >> And >> And by doing that, I was able to build great by doing that, I was able to build great by doing that, I was able to build great relationships with people and understand relationships with people and understand relationships with people and understand where people were coming from. And I where people were coming from. And I where people were coming from. And I think when you understand more where think when you understand more where think when you understand more where people are coming from, people are coming from, people are coming from, >> they feel connected. >> they feel connected. >> they feel connected. >> And when you feel connected, you feel >> And when you feel connected, you feel >> And when you feel connected, you feel safe. You like people more. You want to safe. You like people more. You want to safe. You like people more. You want to hang hang out with them more. And you hang hang out with them more. And you hang hang out with them more. And you create opportunities with each other, create opportunities with each other, create opportunities with each other, whether it be in friendship or work or whether it be in friendship or work or whether it be in friendship or work or whatever it might be. whatever it might be. whatever it might be. >> And so it's probably why I got into this >> And so it's probably why I got into this >> And so it's probably why I got into this show because I'm asking questions. show because I'm asking questions. show because I'm asking questions. >> So let me ask you this. Do you ever >> So let me ask you this. Do you ever >> So let me ask you this. Do you ever find, did you find, do you find this find, did you find, do you find this find, did you find, do you find this pattern of, be honest, people liking you, seeming to be honest, people liking you, seeming to like you more than you like them? Like like you more than you like them? Like like you more than you like them? Like people wanting to hang out with you more people wanting to hang out with you more people wanting to hang out with you more than than than >> Yes. This season of life for sure. I >> Yes. This season of life for sure. I >> Yes. This season of life for sure. I mean, for many years when I didn't have mean, for many years when I didn't have mean, for many years when I didn't have friends and when I didn't have, you friends and when I didn't have, you friends and when I didn't have, you know, a business, when I was kind of know, a business, when I was kind of know, a business, when I was kind of getting into the the working force or getting into the the working force or getting into the the working force or the business world, the business world, the business world, >> in order to create opportunities for >> in order to create opportunities for >> in order to create opportunities for yourself, you need to know lots of yourself, you need to know lots of yourself, you need to know lots of people, you know, if you're starting a people, you know, if you're starting a people, you know, if you're starting a business, you need to get customers and business, you need to get customers and business, you need to get customers and clients. So, you need to put yourself clients. So, you need to put yourself clients. So, you need to put yourself out there out there out there >> and meet everyone essentially that you >> and meet everyone essentially that you >> and meet everyone essentially that you can and and offer services and help and, can and and offer services and help and, can and and offer services and help and, you know, free things to people to get you know, free things to people to get you know, free things to people to get in the door. Mhm. in the door. Mhm. in the door. Mhm. >> Then once you get clients or you have a >> Then once you get clients or you have a >> Then once you get clients or you have a business or whatever it might be, business or whatever it might be, business or whatever it might be, >> uh I realized like I was giving too much >> uh I realized like I was giving too much >> uh I realized like I was giving too much to too many people and I had no energy to too many people and I had no energy to too many people and I had no energy for me for me for me >> and I didn't feel like I was receiving >> and I didn't feel like I was receiving >> and I didn't feel like I was receiving in return from enough people. So I in return from enough people. So I in return from enough people. So I became an overgiver, oversharer, over became an overgiver, oversharer, over became an overgiver, oversharer, over people pleaser. people pleaser. people pleaser. >> Because I wanted everyone to like me. >> Because I wanted everyone to like me. >> Because I wanted everyone to like me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I wanted to feel safe emotionally. >> And I wanted to feel safe emotionally. >> And I wanted to feel safe emotionally. >> Yeah. And then it took the last like >> Yeah. And then it took the last like >> Yeah. And then it took the last like seven years like a a swing of me seven years like a a swing of me seven years like a a swing of me learning how to create better learning how to create better learning how to create better boundaries, learning how to heal deeper boundaries, learning how to heal deeper boundaries, learning how to heal deeper to not feel like I need everyone to like to not feel like I need everyone to like to not feel like I need everyone to like me or to constantly give to everyone. me or to constantly give to everyone. me or to constantly give to everyone. >> That's so important realization. >> That's so important realization. >> That's so important realization. >> And by doing that, by creating these >> And by doing that, by creating these >> And by doing that, by creating these boundaries, it it kind of, you know, boundaries, it it kind of, you know, boundaries, it it kind of, you know, I've reclaimed that energy I've reclaimed that energy I've reclaimed that energy >> and I've put it into the people that I >> and I've put it into the people that I >> and I've put it into the people that I care about the most. And it doesn't mean care about the most. And it doesn't mean care about the most. And it doesn't mean I don't speak to people if they reach I don't speak to people if they reach I don't speak to people if they reach out, but it's like I learned to say no a out, but it's like I learned to say no a out, but it's like I learned to say no a lot more than when I was, you know, my lot more than when I was, you know, my lot more than when I was, you know, my 20s and early 20s and early 20s and early >> because one of the ways that I think of >> because one of the ways that I think of >> because one of the ways that I think of that saying no is what are you saying that saying no is what are you saying that saying no is what are you saying yes to? Like when I say no to meeting yes to? Like when I say no to meeting yes to? Like when I say no to meeting with a new doctoral student at 5:00 at with a new doctoral student at 5:00 at with a new doctoral student at 5:00 at night, I'm saying yes to playing with my night, I'm saying yes to playing with my night, I'm saying yes to playing with my kids at 5:00, right? And so once I kids at 5:00, right? And so once I kids at 5:00, right? And so once I thought about it's like so empowering thought about it's like so empowering thought about it's like so empowering thinking that the reason I asked that thinking that the reason I asked that thinking that the reason I asked that question about the potential asymmetry question about the potential asymmetry question about the potential asymmetry of liking or connectedness is that you of liking or connectedness is that you of liking or connectedness is that you naturally I mean you do this now for naturally I mean you do this now for naturally I mean you do this now for your job but from a young age it sounds your job but from a young age it sounds your job but from a young age it sounds like you were really curious and you like you were really curious and you like you were really curious and you were asking questions and when you ask were asking questions and when you ask were asking questions and when you ask people questions they get to disclose to people questions they get to disclose to people questions they get to disclose to you and when people reveal to you people you and when people reveal to you people you and when people reveal to you people love revealing like it turns out I know love revealing like it turns out I know love revealing like it turns out I know some people might be like what I don't some people might be like what I don't some people might be like what I don't like revealing. you do like revealing in like revealing. you do like revealing in like revealing. you do like revealing in certain contexts. I will tell you data, certain contexts. I will tell you data, certain contexts. I will tell you data, but um you know, you're expressing but um you know, you're expressing but um you know, you're expressing interest in them and you're giving them interest in them and you're giving them interest in them and you're giving them attention and they get to share and attention and they get to share and attention and they get to share and revealing um not I'm not talking about revealing um not I'm not talking about revealing um not I'm not talking about like tricky conversation stuff, but like tricky conversation stuff, but like tricky conversation stuff, but revealing your hopes and dreams, your revealing your hopes and dreams, your revealing your hopes and dreams, your preferences. It actually activates the preferences. It actually activates the preferences. It actually activates the pleasure centers of the brain. So, it pleasure centers of the brain. So, it pleasure centers of the brain. So, it literally is enjoyable and and that literally is enjoyable and and that literally is enjoyable and and that fosters trust. And so um it uh I was fosters trust. And so um it uh I was fosters trust. And so um it uh I was thinking of a um thinking of a um thinking of a um a funny a funny situation where um one a funny a funny situation where um one a funny a funny situation where um one of the ways things that this can kind of of the ways things that this can kind of of the ways things that this can kind of go wrong where we see asymmetries of go wrong where we see asymmetries of go wrong where we see asymmetries of sharing. So a a very healthy sharing to sharing. So a a very healthy sharing to sharing. So a a very healthy sharing to build relationships, friendships, build relationships, friendships, build relationships, friendships, colleagueships, romantic relationships colleagueships, romantic relationships colleagueships, romantic relationships is the dance of reciprocity. I reveal is the dance of reciprocity. I reveal is the dance of reciprocity. I reveal something, you you reciprocate, maybe something, you you reciprocate, maybe something, you you reciprocate, maybe raise the ante a bit and it it it's this raise the ante a bit and it it it's this raise the ante a bit and it it it's this beautiful unfolding um gradual beautiful unfolding um gradual beautiful unfolding um gradual escalation together. escalation together. escalation together. >> Sometimes it goes ary for various >> Sometimes it goes ary for various >> Sometimes it goes ary for various reasons. One of the funny ways it can go reasons. One of the funny ways it can go reasons. One of the funny ways it can go ary well funny cuz I'm going to tell a ary well funny cuz I'm going to tell a ary well funny cuz I'm going to tell a story at my expense. You're welcome. um story at my expense. You're welcome. um story at my expense. You're welcome. um is when you so if someone reveals a lot is when you so if someone reveals a lot is when you so if someone reveals a lot to you and you don't reveal to them you to you and you don't reveal to them you to you and you don't reveal to them you sometimes one can feel like they let me sometimes one can feel like they let me sometimes one can feel like they let me say it differently parasocial say it differently parasocial say it differently parasocial relationships these are so brutal for relationships these are so brutal for relationships these are so brutal for this so Jerry Seinfeld I love Jerry this so Jerry Seinfeld I love Jerry this so Jerry Seinfeld I love Jerry Seinfeld I've watched every episode of Seinfeld I've watched every episode of Seinfeld I've watched every episode of Seinfeld I feel like we like he knows me Seinfeld I feel like we like he knows me Seinfeld I feel like we like he knows me because we mistake the fact that I know because we mistake the fact that I know because we mistake the fact that I know a lot about him from well his his a lot about him from well his his a lot about him from well his his professional perspective Um, and he professional perspective Um, and he professional perspective Um, and he does, but he doesn't know anything about does, but he doesn't know anything about does, but he doesn't know anything about me, but I feel like we're friends. And me, but I feel like we're friends. And me, but I feel like we're friends. And so, one time when I was at a theater wi so, one time when I was at a theater wi so, one time when I was at a theater wi with my husband, I at the intermission, with my husband, I at the intermission, with my husband, I at the intermission, I saw Jerry, first names, and his wife. I saw Jerry, first names, and his wife. I saw Jerry, first names, and his wife. And I just impulsively walked up to him. And I just impulsively walked up to him. And I just impulsively walked up to him. I'm like, "Hey, Jerry." Like, we're old I'm like, "Hey, Jerry." Like, we're old I'm like, "Hey, Jerry." Like, we're old friends. He had no clue who you are. friends. He had no clue who you are. friends. He had no clue who you are. >> Yeah. He's like, and and he obviously I >> Yeah. He's like, and and he obviously I >> Yeah. He's like, and and he obviously I was like, "Oh my god, I immediately was like, "Oh my god, I immediately was like, "Oh my god, I immediately regret this decision." because then I've regret this decision." because then I've regret this decision." because then I've suddenly took his perspective that oh suddenly took his perspective that oh suddenly took his perspective that oh wow like this is some crazy stranger wow like this is some crazy stranger wow like this is some crazy stranger lady it must happen to him all the time lady it must happen to him all the time lady it must happen to him all the time and so he has a thing what he does is he and so he has a thing what he does is he and so he has a thing what he does is he says good to see you good to see you and says good to see you good to see you and says good to see you good to see you and he just keeps walking like as fast as he just keeps walking like as fast as he just keeps walking like as fast as you could walk without it calling it you could walk without it calling it you could walk without it calling it running um and so there's kind of some running um and so there's kind of some running um and so there's kind of some wonky things that can happen sometimes wonky things that can happen sometimes wonky things that can happen sometimes but what I wanted to um the when we were but what I wanted to um the when we were but what I wanted to um the when we were talking about you had started with the talking about you had started with the talking about you had started with the like getting married um what happened like getting married um what happened like getting married um what happened and I think it speaks to this important and I think it speaks to this important and I think it speaks to this important point about um emotional intelligence point about um emotional intelligence point about um emotional intelligence and how like you growing up you really and how like you growing up you really and how like you growing up you really understood people because you observed understood people because you observed understood people because you observed and you're curious and you got better and you're curious and you got better and you're curious and you got better communication skills. communication skills. communication skills. >> I think I understood people because I >> I think I understood people because I >> I think I understood people because I felt very deeply felt very deeply felt very deeply >> and I didn't have any friends and I felt >> and I didn't have any friends and I felt >> and I didn't have any friends and I felt very very very incapable of of being smart based on my incapable of of being smart based on my incapable of of being smart based on my results in school. results in school. results in school. >> Right. Right. Right? >> Right. Right. Right? >> Right. Right. Right? >> So since I felt deeply and I I allowed >> So since I felt deeply and I I allowed >> So since I felt deeply and I I allowed myself to be in a suffering state myself to be in a suffering state myself to be in a suffering state internally constantly internally constantly internally constantly >> like what's wrong with me? Why am I >> like what's wrong with me? Why am I >> like what's wrong with me? Why am I here? What's the point of this life? here? What's the point of this life? here? What's the point of this life? Kind of like this ruminating thought and Kind of like this ruminating thought and Kind of like this ruminating thought and feeling of like I suck. I'm bad. I'm feeling of like I suck. I'm bad. I'm feeling of like I suck. I'm bad. I'm wrong. I'll never be as good as anyone wrong. I'll never be as good as anyone wrong. I'll never be as good as anyone in my class, let alone in the world. in my class, let alone in the world. in my class, let alone in the world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's the point of being alive? This >> What's the point of being alive? This >> What's the point of being alive? This type of rumination. type of rumination. type of rumination. >> Yeah. And I think because of that I >> Yeah. And I think because of that I >> Yeah. And I think because of that I eventually got the courage to say okay eventually got the courage to say okay eventually got the courage to say okay let me let me reflect on why am I let me let me reflect on why am I let me let me reflect on why am I feeling this and let me try to learn feeling this and let me try to learn feeling this and let me try to learn >> if I can't learn in school let me find >> if I can't learn in school let me find >> if I can't learn in school let me find ways to learn outside of school and ways to learn outside of school and ways to learn outside of school and that's human dynamics human behavior that's human dynamics human behavior that's human dynamics human behavior >> and why do people think and feel and act >> and why do people think and feel and act >> and why do people think and feel and act and speak and walk and talk the way they and speak and walk and talk the way they and speak and walk and talk the way they do let me just watch them in reserve do let me just watch them in reserve do let me just watch them in reserve >> and try to learn from human dynamics and >> and try to learn from human dynamics and >> and try to learn from human dynamics and behavior behavior behavior >> and so as a I guess as >> and so as a I guess as >> and so as a I guess as Harvard business professor. Harvard business professor. Harvard business professor. >> What I'm hearing you say is that you >> What I'm hearing you say is that you >> What I'm hearing you say is that you think EQ is way more valuable than IQ think EQ is way more valuable than IQ think EQ is way more valuable than IQ >> completely. >> completely. >> completely. >> But most people in the world are trying >> But most people in the world are trying >> But most people in the world are trying to become smarter at something and to become smarter at something and to become smarter at something and accomplish more degrees and more accomplish more degrees and more accomplish more degrees and more credibility when that's not the answer. credibility when that's not the answer. credibility when that's not the answer. >> I know I'm not doing much for our sales >> I know I'm not doing much for our sales >> I know I'm not doing much for our sales of our degrees. I know but but we have of our degrees. I know but but we have of our degrees. I know but but we have like increasingly courses that are like like increasingly courses that are like like increasingly courses that are like the courses that are really popular for the courses that are really popular for the courses that are really popular for the executives are leadership the executives are leadership the executives are leadership communication but it's so frustrating communication but it's so frustrating communication but it's so frustrating because the MBAs like the the lowest because the MBAs like the the lowest because the MBAs like the the lowest ranked course is often the leadership ranked course is often the leadership ranked course is often the leadership course and then they come as alumni and course and then they come as alumni and course and then they come as alumni and they're like I wish I had paid attention they're like I wish I had paid attention they're like I wish I had paid attention cuz everything is psychology everything cuz everything is psychology everything cuz everything is psychology everything is communication. is communication. is communication. >> Now here's a question for you. Do you >> Now here's a question for you. Do you >> Now here's a question for you. Do you feel like people should get married if feel like people should get married if feel like people should get married if they have a they have a they have a low EQ? low EQ? low EQ? >> Oh I love that question. Love, love. >> Oh I love that question. Love, love. >> Oh I love that question. Love, love. >> You have a high, if you're really smart >> You have a high, if you're really smart >> You have a high, if you're really smart and intelligent, you have a high IQ, but and intelligent, you have a high IQ, but and intelligent, you have a high IQ, but you have a low EQ. Should you get you have a low EQ. Should you get you have a low EQ. Should you get married? married? married? >> This is tricky because I do think you >> This is tricky because I do think you >> This is tricky because I do think you need to understand yourself to get need to understand yourself to get need to understand yourself to get married, you need to understand what you married, you need to understand what you married, you need to understand what you want. Um, and that is want. Um, and that is want. Um, and that is EQE, right? EQE, right? EQE, right? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I also think that so I >> But I also think that so I >> But I also think that so I >> because you essentially said you had >> because you essentially said you had >> because you essentially said you had high IQ but low EQ. high IQ but low EQ. high IQ but low EQ. >> Right. Right. And I should not have >> Right. Right. And I should not have >> Right. Right. And I should not have gotten married. I should not have gotten gotten married. I should not have gotten gotten married. I should not have gotten married. You didn't know your self married. You didn't know your self married. You didn't know your self emotion. emotion. emotion. >> Correct. Correct. But you probably knew >> Correct. Correct. But you probably knew >> Correct. Correct. But you probably knew on paper or analytically what you on paper or analytically what you on paper or analytically what you wanted. I want to be married. I want to wanted. I want to be married. I want to wanted. I want to be married. I want to have safety. I want a home. I want a guy have safety. I want a home. I want a guy have safety. I want a home. I want a guy who's got this job or looks a certain who's got this job or looks a certain who's got this job or looks a certain way. So analytically and on paper, you way. So analytically and on paper, you way. So analytically and on paper, you knew what you wanted. knew what you wanted. knew what you wanted. >> Yes. Yes. But I think even that's still >> Yes. Yes. But I think even that's still >> Yes. Yes. But I think even that's still that's analytical, but it's also that's analytical, but it's also that's analytical, but it's also superficial. And I think that superficial. And I think that superficial. And I think that >> asking yourself like what are my goals? >> asking yourself like what are my goals? >> asking yourself like what are my goals? Uh do I want children? What are like Uh do I want children? What are like Uh do I want children? What are like where would I like to live? What do I where would I like to live? What do I where would I like to live? What do I want my days to look like? Those are want my days to look like? Those are want my days to look like? Those are things that really matter in a things that really matter in a things that really matter in a relationship that aren't like super deep relationship that aren't like super deep relationship that aren't like super deep touchyfey emotions understanding touchyfey emotions understanding touchyfey emotions understanding yourself in that way, but they're still yourself in that way, but they're still yourself in that way, but they're still there still really important things to there still really important things to there still really important things to understand about yourself and your understand about yourself and your understand about yourself and your partner. And I think people I know that partner. And I think people I know that partner. And I think people I know that people differ a lot in relative people differ a lot in relative people differ a lot in relative strengths and relative dominance of IQ strengths and relative dominance of IQ strengths and relative dominance of IQ and EQ. You know, I in academia and EQ. You know, I in academia and EQ. You know, I in academia um I can say this as an academic like IQ um I can say this as an academic like IQ um I can say this as an academic like IQ reigns supreme to supreme in my view. um reigns supreme to supreme in my view. um reigns supreme to supreme in my view. um and really to at the expense of EQ in and really to at the expense of EQ in and really to at the expense of EQ in many cases and tons of my academic many cases and tons of my academic many cases and tons of my academic friends, they're wonderful people. friends, they're wonderful people. friends, they're wonderful people. They're happily married, you know, and I They're happily married, you know, and I They're happily married, you know, and I so I think it's like you got to find so I think it's like you got to find so I think it's like you got to find your match, right? And for me, I am a your match, right? And for me, I am a your match, right? And for me, I am a very cuddly, touchy, feely person. Um very cuddly, touchy, feely person. Um very cuddly, touchy, feely person. Um and so that was a really important part and so that was a really important part and so that was a really important part of me that I hadn't honored and of me that I hadn't honored and of me that I hadn't honored and understood. Um, understood. Um, understood. Um, >> wait. So, okay, I'm confused now because >> wait. So, okay, I'm confused now because >> wait. So, okay, I'm confused now because you had high EQ, low EQ before getting you had high EQ, low EQ before getting you had high EQ, low EQ before getting married, but you were more in your head. married, but you were more in your head. married, but you were more in your head. But now I'm hearing you say you're a But now I'm hearing you say you're a But now I'm hearing you say you're a touchyfey, emotional feeling person. touchyfey, emotional feeling person. touchyfey, emotional feeling person. >> I am a feeling person for sure. >> I am a feeling person for sure. >> I am a feeling person for sure. >> If you weren't back then is what I'm >> If you weren't back then is what I'm >> If you weren't back then is what I'm hearing. hearing. hearing. >> Um, no. I So, what I was back then is I >> Um, no. I So, what I was back then is I >> Um, no. I So, what I was back then is I was I wasn't in touch with myself, was I wasn't in touch with myself, was I wasn't in touch with myself, right? I would dismiss my feelings. I right? I would dismiss my feelings. I right? I would dismiss my feelings. I would dismiss my needs. I would say like would dismiss my needs. I would say like would dismiss my needs. I would say like the things that I wanted in a guy like I the things that I wanted in a guy like I the things that I wanted in a guy like I wanted now I can say it because I'm wanted now I can say it because I'm wanted now I can say it because I'm aware of it. I wanted the like swoonw aware of it. I wanted the like swoonw aware of it. I wanted the like swoonw worthy like just that exciting the worthy like just that exciting the worthy like just that exciting the romance like I wanted that but I romance like I wanted that but I romance like I wanted that but I dismissed it like I shut it down. Why? dismissed it like I shut it down. Why? dismissed it like I shut it down. Why? Well, lots of things about my upbringing Well, lots of things about my upbringing Well, lots of things about my upbringing and you know I don't want to drag things and you know I don't want to drag things and you know I don't want to drag things in but but so that's what I mean. Does in but but so that's what I mean. Does in but but so that's what I mean. Does that help make sense? that help make sense? that help make sense? >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. >> But I also think it's really >> But I also think it's really >> But I also think it's really interesting. We were talking initially a interesting. We were talking initially a interesting. We were talking initially a little bit about being parents. Oh my little bit about being parents. Oh my little bit about being parents. Oh my gosh, I I just wouldn't change that for gosh, I I just wouldn't change that for gosh, I I just wouldn't change that for the world. It's so grounding and so the world. It's so grounding and so the world. It's so grounding and so amazing. And I um so I think about this amazing. And I um so I think about this amazing. And I um so I think about this a lot. I'm like, my parents did a great a lot. I'm like, my parents did a great a lot. I'm like, my parents did a great job in so many ways. Like look at look job in so many ways. Like look at look job in so many ways. Like look at look at where I am. Um and you feel like my at where I am. Um and you feel like my at where I am. Um and you feel like my theory is parents, you can't be perfect. theory is parents, you can't be perfect. theory is parents, you can't be perfect. You do your best. Every parent screws You do your best. Every parent screws You do your best. Every parent screws their kid up in some way. My goal is to their kid up in some way. My goal is to their kid up in some way. My goal is to not screw my kids up in the same way not screw my kids up in the same way not screw my kids up in the same way that my parents screwed me up. And so that my parents screwed me up. And so that my parents screwed me up. And so with my kid, but now I might be with my kid, but now I might be with my kid, but now I might be overcorrecting, but it is informed on overcorrecting, but it is informed on overcorrecting, but it is informed on data. So with my children, my boys, I'm data. So with my children, my boys, I'm data. So with my children, my boys, I'm very like, how are you feeling? Like I'm very like, how are you feeling? Like I'm very like, how are you feeling? Like I'm trying to get them and and they can now trying to get them and and they can now trying to get them and and they can now they can articulate their emotions. It's they can articulate their emotions. It's they can articulate their emotions. It's insane. They're like, I'm feeling insane. They're like, I'm feeling insane. They're like, I'm feeling disappointed. I'm feeling frustrated. disappointed. I'm feeling frustrated. disappointed. I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feel like more sophisticated than I'm feel like more sophisticated than I'm feel like more sophisticated than just the basic ones. And I'm like, oh my just the basic ones. And I'm like, oh my just the basic ones. And I'm like, oh my god, this is amazing. Um, and so I'm god, this is amazing. Um, and so I'm god, this is amazing. Um, and so I'm really trying to nurture that. So much really trying to nurture that. So much really trying to nurture that. So much so that it's interesting because when my so that it's interesting because when my so that it's interesting because when my mother my mother is incredibly bright mother my mother is incredibly bright mother my mother is incredibly bright and she back in the day, you know, she and she back in the day, you know, she and she back in the day, you know, she was born in 1949 and back in the day IQ was born in 1949 and back in the day IQ was born in 1949 and back in the day IQ reigned even more supremely and she reigned even more supremely and she reigned even more supremely and she skipped at least two grades and she skipped at least two grades and she skipped at least two grades and she always did amazing in school. She's a always did amazing in school. She's a always did amazing in school. She's a pharmacist, super successful and pharmacist, super successful and pharmacist, super successful and everything, but she struggled in other everything, but she struggled in other everything, but she struggled in other ways, more subtle ways, which I learned ways, more subtle ways, which I learned ways, more subtle ways, which I learned recently, like in the past few years as recently, like in the past few years as recently, like in the past few years as I've deepened my relationship with my I've deepened my relationship with my I've deepened my relationship with my mother. And I think my theory on that is mother. And I think my theory on that is mother. And I think my theory on that is because imagine this, you're you're because imagine this, you're you're because imagine this, you're you're you're two or three years younger and you're two or three years younger and you're two or three years younger and you're a girl like teenage teenage girls you're a girl like teenage teenage girls you're a girl like teenage teenage girls are just so harsh. Like that would have are just so harsh. Like that would have are just so harsh. Like that would have been so hard for her when you don't have been so hard for her when you don't have been so hard for her when you don't have the like emotional maturity. And so my the like emotional maturity. And so my the like emotional maturity. And so my son, he's just turned five and we've son, he's just turned five and we've son, he's just turned five and we've done the opposite. We've held him back a done the opposite. We've held him back a done the opposite. We've held him back a year. year. year. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> And be and my mom's like, "Why did you >> And be and my mom's like, "Why did you >> And be and my mom's like, "Why did you do that?" Like, she respects it, but do that?" Like, she respects it, but do that?" Like, she respects it, but she's like, she's like, she's like, >> "He's really smart. He doesn't." And I'm >> "He's really smart. He doesn't." And I'm >> "He's really smart. He doesn't." And I'm like, "Yeah, he's super smart." But the like, "Yeah, he's super smart." But the like, "Yeah, he's super smart." But the the emotional maturity I want him to be the emotional maturity I want him to be the emotional maturity I want him to be able to deal with difficult feelings, able to deal with difficult feelings, able to deal with difficult feelings, process them. Like, so anyways, I process them. Like, so anyways, I process them. Like, so anyways, I digress. digress. digress. >> There's something about this you said >> There's something about this you said >> There's something about this you said earlier about the mind readading earlier about the mind readading earlier about the mind readading expectations. expectations. expectations. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, in male female d intimate You know, in male female d intimate You know, in male female d intimate relationships, who has higher mind relationships, who has higher mind relationships, who has higher mind readading expectations of the other? readading expectations of the other? readading expectations of the other? >> The school of greatness is brought to >> The school of greatness is brought to >> The school of greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. The you in partnership with Airbnb. The you in partnership with Airbnb. 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Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. >> So I would guess that I would guess that >> So I would guess that I would guess that women have higher mind readading women have higher mind readading women have higher mind readading expectations. expectations. expectations. >> And when someone has a high mind >> And when someone has a high mind >> And when someone has a high mind readading expect readading expect readading expect >> but not by much. >> but not by much. >> but not by much. >> Okay. Well, when someone has a high mind >> Okay. Well, when someone has a high mind >> Okay. Well, when someone has a high mind readading expectation of their intimate readading expectation of their intimate readading expectation of their intimate partner. partner. partner. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Expecting them to know what they think >> Expecting them to know what they think >> Expecting them to know what they think and feel at all times. Y and feel at all times. Y and feel at all times. Y >> or when they're feeling some emotions >> or when they're feeling some emotions >> or when they're feeling some emotions they don't like. they don't like. they don't like. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. What does that do for the relationship What does that do for the relationship What does that do for the relationship when someone has high mind readading when someone has high mind readading when someone has high mind readading expectations of their partner? expectations of their partner? expectations of their partner? >> Yeah, exactly. It so it's brutal. Um, >> Yeah, exactly. It so it's brutal. Um, >> Yeah, exactly. It so it's brutal. Um, speaking from experience, so it it what speaking from experience, so it it what speaking from experience, so it it what it means is that you have unreasonable it means is that you have unreasonable it means is that you have unreasonable expectations, right? And then it sets expectations, right? And then it sets expectations, right? And then it sets you up for disappointment because if you you up for disappointment because if you you up for disappointment because if you implicitly and that's the thing, it's implicitly and that's the thing, it's implicitly and that's the thing, it's all implicit. Like you don't even all implicit. Like you don't even all implicit. Like you don't even recognize that you're making these recognize that you're making these recognize that you're making these assumptions which makes them even more assumptions which makes them even more assumptions which makes them even more insidious. So if you're feeling crappy insidious. So if you're feeling crappy insidious. So if you're feeling crappy one day and like you want you want you one day and like you want you want you one day and like you want you want you just want your partner to come and give just want your partner to come and give just want your partner to come and give you a cuddly hug but you don't say that you a cuddly hug but you don't say that you a cuddly hug but you don't say that there's no apparent outside show of it. there's no apparent outside show of it. there's no apparent outside show of it. Then if your partner doesn't do that, Then if your partner doesn't do that, Then if your partner doesn't do that, you're like, "He doesn't love me. you're like, "He doesn't love me. you're like, "He doesn't love me. He's a callous. He's a callous jerk." He's a callous. He's a callous jerk." He's a callous. He's a callous jerk." Like, "What is?" And you come up with Like, "What is?" And you come up with Like, "What is?" And you come up with all and you're in your head, right? And all and you're in your head, right? And all and you're in your head, right? And so what these high mind readading so what these high mind readading so what these high mind readading expectations has taught me is to notice expectations has taught me is to notice expectations has taught me is to notice this and to be like, "Colin, I'm feeling this and to be like, "Colin, I'm feeling this and to be like, "Colin, I'm feeling really crappy. I need a hug." And um really crappy. I need a hug." And um really crappy. I need a hug." And um >> not not saying in the way like, "Gosh, >> not not saying in the way like, "Gosh, >> not not saying in the way like, "Gosh, why don't you just hug me already?" why don't you just hug me already?" why don't you just hug me already?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Like, I didn't know. >> Like, I didn't know. >> Like, I didn't know. >> Right. And then and then we talk about >> Right. And then and then we talk about >> Right. And then and then we talk about it and then I'm like so for me if in it and then I'm like so for me if in it and then I'm like so for me if in doubt cuddles and love like I don't need doubt cuddles and love like I don't need doubt cuddles and love like I don't need like problem solving I just very tactile like problem solving I just very tactile like problem solving I just very tactile and um and it's interesting because that and um and it's interesting because that and um and it's interesting because that then opened a conversation with us about then opened a conversation with us about then opened a conversation with us about how he said cuz I had always thought a how he said cuz I had always thought a how he said cuz I had always thought a little bit like he's kind of aloof. I little bit like he's kind of aloof. I little bit like he's kind of aloof. I know he loves me but he's a little he's know he loves me but he's a little he's know he loves me but he's a little he's not goooo like cuddly waddly like I am. not goooo like cuddly waddly like I am. not goooo like cuddly waddly like I am. and he said, "You know, the reason why I and he said, "You know, the reason why I and he said, "You know, the reason why I have I have a thing, a bit of a complex have I have a thing, a bit of a complex have I have a thing, a bit of a complex because like you, he's a really tall guy because like you, he's a really tall guy because like you, he's a really tall guy and he also was a professional um and he also was a professional um and he also was a professional um professional soccer player and he so he professional soccer player and he so he professional soccer player and he so he was very sensitive about being was very sensitive about being was very sensitive about being overbearing to people and and with overbearing to people and and with overbearing to people and and with personal space and he never wanted it personal space and he never wanted it personal space and he never wanted it cuz he's so classy and so like cuz he's so classy and so like cuz he's so classy and so like >> you know never wants women especially to >> you know never wants women especially to >> you know never wants women especially to feel uncomfortable. So sometimes it can feel uncomfortable. So sometimes it can feel uncomfortable. So sometimes it can come even with his own wife as as of as come even with his own wife as as of as come even with his own wife as as of as as like standoffish. And so that was so as like standoffish. And so that was so as like standoffish. And so that was so interesting. I never like if I hadn't interesting. I never like if I hadn't interesting. I never like if I hadn't asked I never would have guessed that asked I never would have guessed that asked I never would have guessed that because I'm I'm not because I'm I'm not because I'm I'm not >> I'm I'm not like that. Yeah. >> I'm I'm not like that. Yeah. >> I'm I'm not like that. Yeah. >> So it's really really important because >> So it's really really important because >> So it's really really important because also when you share when you say how you also when you share when you say how you also when you share when you say how you feel like it it is a conversation too feel like it it is a conversation too feel like it it is a conversation too and then then that you become more and then then that you become more and then then that you become more intimate because you know each other so intimate because you know each other so intimate because you know each other so well and well and well and study after study has shown that feeling study after study has shown that feeling study after study has shown that feeling known for who you really are like warts known for who you really are like warts known for who you really are like warts and all is such a strong predictor of and all is such a strong predictor of and all is such a strong predictor of strong relationships. Really? Yeah. In strong relationships. Really? Yeah. In strong relationships. Really? Yeah. In fact, um, so suppose, okay, so suppose I fact, um, so suppose, okay, so suppose I fact, um, so suppose, okay, so suppose I have low self-esteem and on the one hand have low self-esteem and on the one hand have low self-esteem and on the one hand in one situation, my husband would if he in one situation, my husband would if he in one situation, my husband would if he says, "Oh, um, you know, you're such a says, "Oh, um, you know, you're such a says, "Oh, um, you know, you're such a badass goddess. You like you're so badass goddess. You like you're so badass goddess. You like you're so together and confident and you're really together and confident and you're really together and confident and you're really great at what you do." Um, another great at what you do." Um, another great at what you do." Um, another version is I know you struggle sometimes version is I know you struggle sometimes version is I know you struggle sometimes with self-esteem. Um, and and not even with self-esteem. Um, and and not even with self-esteem. Um, and and not even saying it's okay or anything, but just saying it's okay or anything, but just saying it's okay or anything, but just saying how what I am like. That is so saying how what I am like. That is so saying how what I am like. That is so much more strongly predictive of a much more strongly predictive of a much more strongly predictive of a strong relationship than when someone strong relationship than when someone strong relationship than when someone idealizes you. Because you want to be idealizes you. Because you want to be idealizes you. Because you want to be known. Like, isn't that so much more known. Like, isn't that so much more known. Like, isn't that so much more meaningful that even though if I had low meaningful that even though if I had low meaningful that even though if I had low self-esteem, he still loves me. He's self-esteem, he still loves me. He's self-esteem, he still loves me. He's like, he knows me. It's not like some like, he knows me. It's not like some like, he knows me. It's not like some fake I'm not an imposttor in this fake I'm not an imposttor in this fake I'm not an imposttor in this relationship, relationship, relationship, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's interesting. I mean, do you feel >> That's interesting. I mean, do you feel >> That's interesting. I mean, do you feel like you were vulnerable in previous like you were vulnerable in previous like you were vulnerable in previous relationships? relationships? relationships? >> No. That's the other thing is I I was >> No. That's the other thing is I I was >> No. That's the other thing is I I was not not not >> really >> really >> really >> I was not um >> I was not um >> I was not um >> So you just kind of held your emotions >> So you just kind of held your emotions >> So you just kind of held your emotions to the chest. You weren't sharing what to the chest. You weren't sharing what to the chest. You weren't sharing what was on your heart or mind and like was on your heart or mind and like was on your heart or mind and like >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> what sad things you were going through. >> what sad things you were going through. >> what sad things you were going through. >> I think it was for me. So I think when >> I think it was for me. So I think when >> I think it was for me. So I think when people undershare there's often two people undershare there's often two people undershare there's often two things. One the bigger issue which is things. One the bigger issue which is things. One the bigger issue which is what I had is lack of emotional what I had is lack of emotional what I had is lack of emotional awareness of oneself. Like I did not awareness of oneself. Like I did not awareness of oneself. Like I did not know what I was feeling. I didn't know what I was feeling. I didn't know what I was feeling. I didn't understand myself. Which sounds crazy understand myself. Which sounds crazy understand myself. Which sounds crazy cuz it's like even the thought of cuz it's like even the thought of cuz it's like even the thought of needing to understand myself like I am needing to understand myself like I am needing to understand myself like I am me. I'm the cells in my body. Like why me. I'm the cells in my body. Like why me. I'm the cells in my body. Like why don't we come with the built-in don't we come with the built-in don't we come with the built-in understanding but we don't. So the core understanding but we don't. So the core understanding but we don't. So the core that's the core issue is not that's the core issue is not that's the core issue is not understanding yourself. And then the understanding yourself. And then the understanding yourself. And then the second is people who really do second is people who really do second is people who really do understand them. This is like my husband understand them. This is like my husband understand them. This is like my husband he really understands himself but he's he really understands himself but he's he really understands himself but he's very reserved. Um but when someone just very reserved. Um but when someone just very reserved. Um but when someone just doesn't share you don't know which is doesn't share you don't know which is doesn't share you don't know which is which. Um so in my case which. Um so in my case which. Um so in my case >> until you share you know more. >> until you share you know more. >> until you share you know more. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. So when did you start to have a I >> Yeah. So when did you start to have a I >> Yeah. So when did you start to have a I guess an emotional breakthrough where guess an emotional breakthrough where guess an emotional breakthrough where you were like okay I'm realizing that you were like okay I'm realizing that you were like okay I'm realizing that this is who I am. I'm being more aware this is who I am. I'm being more aware this is who I am. I'm being more aware that I have that I have that I have >> had this upbringing which is >> had this upbringing which is >> had this upbringing which is >> maybe we don't say we love you enough or >> maybe we don't say we love you enough or >> maybe we don't say we love you enough or ever or we don't talk about our feelings ever or we don't talk about our feelings ever or we don't talk about our feelings or it's just or it's just or it's just >> toughen up or don't cry and you're just >> toughen up or don't cry and you're just >> toughen up or don't cry and you're just likeiff through it. Yeah. Get through it likeiff through it. Yeah. Get through it likeiff through it. Yeah. Get through it like ah just rub some dirt on you got like ah just rub some dirt on you got like ah just rub some dirt on you got this. Yeah. this. Yeah. this. Yeah. >> Keep going or do better. >> Keep going or do better. >> Keep going or do better. >> Yeah. I can relate to that in some ways. >> Yeah. I can relate to that in some ways. >> Yeah. I can relate to that in some ways. But it's like when did you have an But it's like when did you have an But it's like when did you have an emotional breakthrough where you said, emotional breakthrough where you said, emotional breakthrough where you said, "Oh, "Oh, "Oh, >> again, it doesn't mean my childhood or >> again, it doesn't mean my childhood or >> again, it doesn't mean my childhood or my parents were bad or wrong. They just my parents were bad or wrong. They just my parents were bad or wrong. They just didn't have the tools to teach me these didn't have the tools to teach me these didn't have the tools to teach me these things. I need to learn how to things. I need to learn how to things. I need to learn how to emotionally evolve." emotionally evolve." emotionally evolve." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that I can have better intimacy >> So that I can have better intimacy >> So that I can have better intimacy relationships with my partner, with my relationships with my partner, with my relationships with my partner, with my children, with friends. children, with friends. children, with friends. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a series of >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a series of >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a series of things. Divorce was things. Divorce was things. Divorce was >> amazing. >> amazing. >> amazing. >> That'll break you open. I mean, I don't >> That'll break you open. I mean, I don't >> That'll break you open. I mean, I don't think enough people get divorced. think enough people get divorced. think enough people get divorced. >> I don't think people should get >> I don't think people should get >> I don't think people should get divorced. I think you should go through divorced. I think you should go through divorced. I think you should go through a process of onboarding your a process of onboarding your a process of onboarding your relationship so you're in alignment with relationship so you're in alignment with relationship so you're in alignment with the right values. the right values. the right values. >> That's the best. >> That's the best. >> That's the best. >> And it doesn't mean it's always going to >> And it doesn't mean it's always going to >> And it doesn't mean it's always going to work out. work out. work out. >> That's the best. >> That's the best. >> That's the best. >> But doing that before saying, "Let's >> But doing that before saying, "Let's >> But doing that before saying, "Let's just get married." just get married." just get married." >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Um the state of the world, >> Um the state of the world, >> Um the state of the world, unfortunately, we are not unfortunately, we are not unfortunately, we are not psychologically enlightened enough, psychologically enlightened enough, psychologically enlightened enough, myself included, to be making. So, in myself included, to be making. So, in myself included, to be making. So, in that I I just think that people are in that I I just think that people are in that I I just think that people are in marriages that they shouldn't be in. marriages that they shouldn't be in. marriages that they shouldn't be in. >> Um, but obviously I'm biased. >> Um, but obviously I'm biased. >> Um, but obviously I'm biased. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So, like I'm at the point now where I'm >> So, like I'm at the point now where I'm >> So, like I'm at the point now where I'm super grateful to my ex-husband because super grateful to my ex-husband because super grateful to my ex-husband because I never would have met Colin. I know I never would have met Colin. I know I never would have met Colin. I know it's but um yeah, I mean one of the it's but um yeah, I mean one of the it's but um yeah, I mean one of the divorce is a big thing which prompted a divorce is a big thing which prompted a divorce is a big thing which prompted a lot of self-reflection. Uh, I had a lot of self-reflection. Uh, I had a lot of self-reflection. Uh, I had a great therapist who was really helpful. great therapist who was really helpful. great therapist who was really helpful. But it it made me start to, you know, But it it made me start to, you know, But it it made me start to, you know, unpack why, what it was, why I married unpack why, what it was, why I married unpack why, what it was, why I married this person, what went wrong. But then, this person, what went wrong. But then, this person, what went wrong. But then, >> do academics go through therapy >> do academics go through therapy >> do academics go through therapy >> secretly. >> secretly. >> secretly. >> But if you're so smart, you have such >> But if you're so smart, you have such >> But if you're so smart, you have such IQ, you know, but we're the ones that IQ, you know, but we're the ones that IQ, you know, but we're the ones that need it, right? need it, right? need it, right? >> I'm not. You said it, not me. >> I'm not. You said it, not me. >> I'm not. You said it, not me. >> We are the one like, oh my god, therapy >> We are the one like, oh my god, therapy >> We are the one like, oh my god, therapy is the greatest thing ever. that an is the greatest thing ever. that an is the greatest thing ever. that an exercise like for for well-being I exercise like for for well-being I exercise like for for well-being I think. Um but but you have to get the think. Um but but you have to get the think. Um but but you have to get the right therapist right like right therapist right like right therapist right like >> of course. Yeah. >> of course. Yeah. >> of course. Yeah. >> Um but uh then there was um I think like >> Um but uh then there was um I think like >> Um but uh then there was um I think like there was like I had some really close there was like I had some really close there was like I had some really close friends who helped me in in processing friends who helped me in in processing friends who helped me in in processing what I wanted and and then I also the what I wanted and and then I also the what I wanted and and then I also the the the the huge thing um I mean this is the the the huge thing um I mean this is the the the huge thing um I mean this is all just all developing. It's all an all just all developing. It's all an all just all developing. It's all an emotional, it's all a journey. But I emotional, it's all a journey. But I emotional, it's all a journey. But I learned something that really really learned something that really really learned something that really really helped me really just occurred as I was helped me really just occurred as I was helped me really just occurred as I was writing the book. Um because writing the book. Um because writing the book. Um because I um cut me off if I'm rambling. Go ahead. um cut me off if I'm rambling. Go ahead. >> Okay. So >> Okay. So >> Okay. So before I got married before I got married before I got married to my first husband, to my first husband, to my first husband, the month before I had second thoughts. the month before I had second thoughts. the month before I had second thoughts. And And And I had second thoughts because I was like attracted to other men, like was like attracted to other men, like super attracted to other men. And I super attracted to other men. And I super attracted to other men. And I thought I mean I know like yeah that thought I mean I know like yeah that thought I mean I know like yeah that people are attracted to people but like people are attracted to people but like people are attracted to people but like it was like I wanted to act on it and it was like I wanted to act on it and it was like I wanted to act on it and I'm like this is not this doesn't feel I'm like this is not this doesn't feel I'm like this is not this doesn't feel right and so I called my mom and I I right and so I called my mom and I I right and so I called my mom and I I said I expressed the concern and said I expressed the concern and said I expressed the concern and >> that was courageous and oversharing >> that was courageous and oversharing >> that was courageous and oversharing that. that. that. >> Yeah, it was. But that's how lost I was. >> Yeah, it was. But that's how lost I was. >> Yeah, it was. But that's how lost I was. I'm like I don't know what to do. Uh I'm like I don't know what to do. Uh I'm like I don't know what to do. Uh that I that I actually said this to my that I that I actually said this to my that I that I actually said this to my mom. Um, we're we're pretty close, but mom. Um, we're we're pretty close, but mom. Um, we're we're pretty close, but uh this was a big deal. So, I uh this was a big deal. So, I uh this was a big deal. So, I >> tell her that you I want to act on, you >> tell her that you I want to act on, you >> tell her that you I want to act on, you know, being with other men before your know, being with other men before your know, being with other men before your marriage. marriage. marriage. >> I told her that. Yeah. I Right. Which is >> I told her that. Yeah. I Right. Which is >> I told her that. Yeah. I Right. Which is kind of a big deal to say to your mom. kind of a big deal to say to your mom. kind of a big deal to say to your mom. Um, so she said, "Huh, you know, it's Um, so she said, "Huh, you know, it's Um, so she said, "Huh, you know, it's interesting because before I married interesting because before I married interesting because before I married your father, your father, your father, I had second thoughts, too." I had second thoughts, too." I had second thoughts, too." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. And um And um And um >> and in your mind, are you thinking your >> and in your mind, are you thinking your >> and in your mind, are you thinking your parents should have stayed married? parents should have stayed married? parents should have stayed married? >> Well, so no. So then I'm like, whoa. And >> Well, so no. So then I'm like, whoa. And >> Well, so no. So then I'm like, whoa. And then she said, but then she said, but then she said, but you know, she said, uh the reason I had you know, she said, uh the reason I had you know, she said, uh the reason I had second like you, I really enjoyed my second like you, I really enjoyed my second like you, I really enjoyed my flirtation. This is how she totally how flirtation. This is how she totally how flirtation. This is how she totally how she'd say it. I really enjoyed my she'd say it. I really enjoyed my she'd say it. I really enjoyed my flirtations with other men. Um but I'm flirtations with other men. Um but I'm flirtations with other men. Um but I'm so glad I married your father. There you so glad I married your father. There you so glad I married your father. There you go. go. go. >> Because look at how happy we are. Look >> Because look at how happy we are. Look >> Because look at how happy we are. Look at the lives we've built. and and I at the lives we've built. and and I at the lives we've built. and and I really do believe they're truly happy. really do believe they're truly happy. really do believe they're truly happy. Um Um Um I wouldn't be happy in that marriage, I wouldn't be happy in that marriage, I wouldn't be happy in that marriage, but they are very happy. And and she but they are very happy. And and she but they are very happy. And and she said, you know, the like physical stuff said, you know, the like physical stuff said, you know, the like physical stuff that the like really I can only think of that the like really I can only think of that the like really I can only think of it in my words, so that's why I'm like it in my words, so that's why I'm like it in my words, so that's why I'm like you wouldn't say the way I would say you wouldn't say the way I would say you wouldn't say the way I would say like I'll rip your um the physical stuff like I'll rip your um the physical stuff like I'll rip your um the physical stuff it waines. Um what you what you have it waines. Um what you what you have it waines. Um what you what you have what we have is like the mature what we have is like the mature what we have is like the mature longlasting love. And so then I was longlasting love. And so then I was longlasting love. And so then I was like, "Oh, yeah, I have the mature like, "Oh, yeah, I have the mature like, "Oh, yeah, I have the mature love." And so I went ahead with it and I love." And so I went ahead with it and I love." And so I went ahead with it and I got married. And then um got married. And then um got married. And then um yeah, I spare you the details, but it yeah, I spare you the details, but it yeah, I spare you the details, but it was not a good marriage. We got was not a good marriage. We got was not a good marriage. We got divorced. And then once I divorced. And then once I divorced. And then once I >> When did you know we weren't meant to be >> When did you know we weren't meant to be >> When did you know we weren't meant to be together in the marriage? Like right together in the marriage? Like right together in the marriage? Like right after you were married? after you were married? after you were married? >> No, I was It was a joyous day and like >> No, I was It was a joyous day and like >> No, I was It was a joyous day and like the first year, but then after the first the first year, but then after the first the first year, but then after the first year I it was like this is year I it was like this is year I it was like this is >> like life settled in. You're like this >> like life settled in. You're like this >> like life settled in. You're like this is not it. Not it. But it would go in is not it. Not it. But it would go in is not it. Not it. But it would go in waves, right? Cuz it's hard. It's a hard waves, right? Cuz it's hard. It's a hard waves, right? Cuz it's hard. It's a hard thing. Divorce is the kind of thing thing. Divorce is the kind of thing thing. Divorce is the kind of thing that's crazy painful in the moment. Like that's crazy painful in the moment. Like that's crazy painful in the moment. Like even if it's totally the right call, even if it's totally the right call, even if it's totally the right call, it's so hard to do because it's so it's so hard to do because it's so it's so hard to do because it's so painful. Even when it's right, you painful. Even when it's right, you painful. Even when it's right, you perpetually know perpetually know perpetually know >> you. But that was also a thing where >> you. But that was also a thing where >> you. But that was also a thing where like I never that was revealing to me like I never that was revealing to me like I never that was revealing to me that want to. that want to. that want to. >> Right. Right. Okay. So then I Okay. So >> Right. Right. Okay. So then I Okay. So >> Right. Right. Okay. So then I Okay. So then I'm divorced and then I get this then I'm divorced and then I get this then I'm divorced and then I get this email few years after I'm divorced. My email few years after I'm divorced. My email few years after I'm divorced. My brother adds me to an email chain and he brother adds me to an email chain and he brother adds me to an email chain and he says last check check check out what's says last check check check out what's says last check check check out what's at the bottom. I and so it was between at the bottom. I and so it was between at the bottom. I and so it was between my parents because my brother does their my parents because my brother does their my parents because my brother does their finances and at but at the very bottom finances and at but at the very bottom finances and at but at the very bottom so they had added my brother on and so they had added my brother on and so they had added my brother on and they'd forgotten that at the very bottom they'd forgotten that at the very bottom they'd forgotten that at the very bottom of the email it's a convo between my mom of the email it's a convo between my mom of the email it's a convo between my mom and my dad about my mom going to her and my dad about my mom going to her and my dad about my mom going to her lover's house. I know. And I'm like lover's house. I know. And I'm like lover's house. I know. And I'm like >> whoa. I'm like filled with rage because >> whoa. I'm like filled with rage because >> whoa. I'm like filled with rage because >> they lied to you about it. >> they lied to you about it. >> they lied to you about it. >> Exact. Because I immediately went back >> Exact. Because I immediately went back >> Exact. Because I immediately went back to that conversation. I'm like, to that conversation. I'm like, to that conversation. I'm like, >> you lied. >> you lied. >> you lied. >> You undersshared. If you It would have >> You undersshared. If you It would have >> You undersshared. If you It would have been better for you to have said nothing been better for you to have said nothing been better for you to have said nothing than for you to have told me half the than for you to have told me half the than for you to have told me half the story. Like, how dare like I would never story. Like, how dare like I would never story. Like, how dare like I would never have married that man if you had if you have married that man if you had if you have married that man if you had if you had told me that the way you compensate had told me that the way you compensate had told me that the way you compensate is by this, which works for you. And is by this, which works for you. And is by this, which works for you. And like I'm not mad. Like I'm h like it's like I'm not mad. Like I'm h like it's like I'm not mad. Like I'm h like it's it's it's consent. It's all fine. like it's it's consent. It's all fine. like it's it's consent. It's all fine. like whatever lots of different relationship whatever lots of different relationship whatever lots of different relationship but I know for me that is not I I crave but I know for me that is not I I crave but I know for me that is not I I crave like monogamy like monogamy like monogamy >> and and so I just felt so misled. I was >> and and so I just felt so misled. I was >> and and so I just felt so misled. I was so angry about it but I never said it to so angry about it but I never said it to so angry about it but I never said it to her. I just kind of lived in like her. I just kind of lived in like her. I just kind of lived in like >> have you told her now? >> have you told her now? >> have you told her now? >> Well, so then I'm writing the I'm >> Well, so then I'm writing the I'm >> Well, so then I'm writing the I'm literally writing the book and I'm like literally writing the book and I'm like literally writing the book and I'm like >> that's a big betrayal in a sense >> that's a big betrayal in a sense >> that's a big betrayal in a sense >> I think. Exactly. And I always felt you >> I think. Exactly. And I always felt you >> I think. Exactly. And I always felt you know and over the years like so I held know and over the years like so I held know and over the years like so I held on to this for like 10 years and so over on to this for like 10 years and so over on to this for like 10 years and so over >> you never spoke to her for 10 years >> you never spoke to her for 10 years >> you never spoke to her for 10 years about it. you saw and you did in the about it. you saw and you did in the about it. you saw and you did in the dressing, dressing, dressing, >> right? I know. See, like avoidant. Um, >> right? I know. See, like avoidant. Um, >> right? I know. See, like avoidant. Um, but then like I was the the the rage but then like I was the the the rage but then like I was the the the rage kind of went away and then I got kind of went away and then I got kind of went away and then I got remarried and remarried and remarried and >> you still had like this resentment. >> you still had like this resentment. >> you still had like this resentment. >> Yeah. And I but I kind of like >> Yeah. And I but I kind of like >> Yeah. And I but I kind of like >> And so good at stuffing your emotions, >> And so good at stuffing your emotions, >> And so good at stuffing your emotions, right? right? right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Too good. Working on it. And >> Yeah. Yeah. Too good. Working on it. And >> Yeah. Yeah. Too good. Working on it. And so then I'm literally writing the book so then I'm literally writing the book so then I'm literally writing the book and and and the book I wanted from chapter 3 a story the book I wanted from chapter 3 a story the book I wanted from chapter 3 a story of someone who like there was under of someone who like there was under of someone who like there was under sharing and they didn't realize at the sharing and they didn't realize at the sharing and they didn't realize at the moment and then if they'd only known and moment and then if they'd only known and moment and then if they'd only known and like it's the kind of story that's hard like it's the kind of story that's hard like it's the kind of story that's hard to find, right? to find, right? to find, right? >> You're like this and then in like I >> You're like this and then in like I >> You're like this and then in like I suffering of my soul that I've stuffed suffering of my soul that I've stuffed suffering of my soul that I've stuffed down totally something there. down totally something there. down totally something there. >> It's always in the middle of the night I >> It's always in the middle of the night I >> It's always in the middle of the night I woke up and I'm like oh my god I have woke up and I'm like oh my god I have woke up and I'm like oh my god I have stuffed this down. I've never talked to stuffed this down. I've never talked to stuffed this down. I've never talked to my mother about this. She doesn't know my mother about this. She doesn't know my mother about this. She doesn't know that I know this and that I feel this that I know this and that I feel this that I know this and that I feel this way and that I felt such I didn't feel way and that I felt such I didn't feel way and that I felt such I didn't feel such intense rage anymore. But I'm like, such intense rage anymore. But I'm like, such intense rage anymore. But I'm like, how can I write this book? Like I don't how can I write this book? Like I don't how can I write this book? Like I don't know if I'm putting the story in the know if I'm putting the story in the know if I'm putting the story in the book. That was a whole other series of book. That was a whole other series of book. That was a whole other series of conversations. conversations. conversations. >> But I need to address this myself. >> But I need to address this myself. >> But I need to address this myself. >> But I need to address this myself. Like >> But I need to address this myself. Like >> But I need to address this myself. Like this whole book is completely hypoc. If this whole book is completely hypoc. If this whole book is completely hypoc. If I believe what I'm writing, I got to do I believe what I'm writing, I got to do I believe what I'm writing, I got to do this. this. this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I did it. I had the convo with her >> So I did it. I had the convo with her >> So I did it. I had the convo with her and I and I and I >> call her or face to face. >> call her or face to face. >> call her or face to face. >> Face to face. >> Face to face. >> Face to face. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Big glass of scotch. Um, >> Big glass of scotch. Um, >> Big glass of scotch. Um, you know, you're like masculine you know, you're like masculine you know, you're like masculine in extreme situations like I am human. in extreme situations like I am human. in extreme situations like I am human. Yeah, of course. Um, Yeah, of course. Um, Yeah, of course. Um, >> and so >> and so >> and so >> still weren't willing to really face it. >> still weren't willing to really face it. >> still weren't willing to really face it. >> You can cut that out. >> You can cut that out. >> You can cut that out. >> Took some creatine. Um, >> Took some creatine. Um, >> Took some creatine. Um, >> and and I said, >> and and I said, >> and and I said, >> you sat down Facebook. Did you say, >> you sat down Facebook. Did you say, >> you sat down Facebook. Did you say, "Hey, I have something I want to tell "Hey, I have something I want to tell "Hey, I have something I want to tell you. Let's meet." Did you just meet and you. Let's meet." Did you just meet and you. Let's meet." Did you just meet and say, "Okay, now." say, "Okay, now." say, "Okay, now." >> Well, I think it was like >> Well, I think it was like >> Well, I think it was like >> No, it was not. I don't think I gave her >> No, it was not. I don't think I gave her >> No, it was not. I don't think I gave her a warning. a warning. a warning. >> Yeah. So, you just met up >> Yeah. So, you just met up >> Yeah. So, you just met up >> and how do you and then she'll ruminate. >> and how do you and then she'll ruminate. >> and how do you and then she'll ruminate. So, I just was like, "Let's just do it." So, I just was like, "Let's just do it." So, I just was like, "Let's just do it." >> She met up and then how did >> She met up and then how did >> She met up and then how did >> we were relaxed. The kids were in bed. I >> we were relaxed. The kids were in bed. I >> we were relaxed. The kids were in bed. I said, "Hey, listen. 10 years ago I saw said, "Hey, listen. 10 years ago I saw said, "Hey, listen. 10 years ago I saw >> How dare you?" No. I said to her, I did >> How dare you?" No. I said to her, I did >> How dare you?" No. I said to her, I did think about how I was going to open it think about how I was going to open it think about how I was going to open it and I said, and I said, and I said, >> "Um, what do you remember that phone >> "Um, what do you remember that phone >> "Um, what do you remember that phone call before I married call before I married call before I married uh my first marriage?" And she said, uh my first marriage?" And she said, uh my first marriage?" And she said, "Yes." And she like this this knowing "Yes." And she like this this knowing "Yes." And she like this this knowing but it wasn't it wasn't defensive. It but it wasn't it wasn't defensive. It but it wasn't it wasn't defensive. It was like a knowing warmth. She's like was like a knowing warmth. She's like was like a knowing warmth. She's like yes. yes. yes. >> And I've always wondered whether I said >> And I've always wondered whether I said >> And I've always wondered whether I said the right thing. the right thing. the right thing. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> And I'm like oh my god >> And I'm like oh my god >> And I'm like oh my god >> wow. >> wow. >> wow. >> And and then she um you know I told her >> And and then she um you know I told her >> And and then she um you know I told her how I felt and then she's like wow. And how I felt and then she's like wow. And how I felt and then she's like wow. And she said you know I can totally she said you know I can totally she said you know I can totally appreciate that but at the time I appreciate that but at the time I appreciate that but at the time I actually did not think I was omitting actually did not think I was omitting actually did not think I was omitting anything. And this is part anything. And this is part anything. And this is part >> she didn't think she was omitting. did >> she didn't think she was omitting. did >> she didn't think she was omitting. did not. And this is part of the point. So not. And this is part of the point. So not. And this is part of the point. So often the thought of sharing something often the thought of sharing something often the thought of sharing something doesn't even occur to us. She didn't doesn't even occur to us. She didn't doesn't even occur to us. She didn't even think of it was relevant, even think of it was relevant, even think of it was relevant, >> right? Like >> right? Like >> right? Like >> had she known that like, oh yeah, you >> had she known that like, oh yeah, you >> had she known that like, oh yeah, you can get married and have a lover later. can get married and have a lover later. can get married and have a lover later. >> We are giving her a lot of benefit of >> We are giving her a lot of benefit of >> We are giving her a lot of benefit of the doubt. But but um I I it was just the doubt. But but um I I it was just the doubt. But but um I I it was just like so like so like so like curative to to talk to her about it like curative to to talk to her about it like curative to to talk to her about it and to tell her how I felt. And then I and to tell her how I felt. And then I and to tell her how I felt. And then I realized like, you know, but like mom, realized like, you know, but like mom, realized like, you know, but like mom, what were you supposed to do? It's the what were you supposed to do? It's the what were you supposed to do? It's the month before your my wedding. like you month before your my wedding. like you month before your my wedding. like you were in a tricky situation too and like were in a tricky situation too and like were in a tricky situation too and like >> so and then I realized it's as much my >> so and then I realized it's as much my >> so and then I realized it's as much my own like well I'm the one that didn't own like well I'm the one that didn't own like well I'm the one that didn't honor what I really want in a mate like honor what I really want in a mate like honor what I really want in a mate like >> you know so I can't >> you know so I can't >> you know so I can't >> yeah it's not all her fault one thing >> yeah it's not all her fault one thing >> yeah it's not all her fault one thing that she could have said would have that she could have said would have that she could have said would have changed everything changed everything changed everything >> yeah but then like >> yeah but then like >> yeah but then like >> it's not on her to make the decision >> it's not on her to make the decision >> it's not on her to make the decision >> you've got to make the decision you're >> you've got to make the decision you're >> you've got to make the decision you're 28 also it's not like you're 17 28 also it's not like you're 17 28 also it's not like you're 17 >> grown ass woman exactly you can't put it >> grown ass woman exactly you can't put it >> grown ass woman exactly you can't put it on her on her on her >> exactly exactly >> exactly exactly >> exactly exactly >> even if she said you know we have a >> even if she said you know we have a >> even if she said you know we have a great relationship and we have some fun great relationship and we have some fun great relationship and we have some fun on the side, on the side, on the side, >> you probably still would have gotten >> you probably still would have gotten >> you probably still would have gotten married. I married. I married. I >> I know I say I wouldn't have, but I >> I know I say I wouldn't have, but I >> I know I say I wouldn't have, but I probably would have convinced myself probably would have convinced myself probably would have convinced myself because it's like the it's so hard to because it's like the it's so hard to because it's like the it's so hard to call it off then, right? call it off then, right? call it off then, right? >> So, yeah. >> So, yeah. >> So, yeah. >> So, I'm curious then what happens to >> So, I'm curious then what happens to >> So, I'm curious then what happens to your self-respect or anyone's your self-respect or anyone's your self-respect or anyone's self-respect when we don't express our self-respect when we don't express our self-respect when we don't express our truth truth truth >> to someone else? When we don't >> to someone else? When we don't >> to someone else? When we don't >> Oh, I love that. >> Oh, I love that. >> Oh, I love that. >> Cuz you didn't share for a decade >> Cuz you didn't share for a decade >> Cuz you didn't share for a decade >> how you felt. >> how you felt. >> how you felt. >> Yeah. I love that. >> Yeah. I love that. >> Yeah. I love that. >> What happened to your self-respect? >> What happened to your self-respect? >> What happened to your self-respect? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In that 10year season. Yeah. Yeah. >> In that 10year season. Yeah. Yeah. >> In that 10year season. Yeah. Yeah. >> Of stuffing the emotion. This message is >> Of stuffing the emotion. This message is >> Of stuffing the emotion. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. It's a brought to you by Apple Card. It's a brought to you by Apple Card. It's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. great time to apply for an Apple Card. great time to apply for an Apple Card. 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To qualify, you must apply at qualify, you must apply at qualify, you must apply at apple.co/getailycash. co/getdaily apple.co/getailycash. co/getdaily apple.co/getailycash. co/getdaily cash apple card issued by Goldman Sachs cash apple card issued by Goldman Sachs cash apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch offer may Bank USA Salt Lake City branch offer may Bank USA Salt Lake City branch offer may not be available elsewhere terms and not be available elsewhere terms and not be available elsewhere terms and limitations apply limitations apply limitations apply >> right I mean >> right I mean >> right I mean I think that I think that I think that the stuffing of the emotion right it the stuffing of the emotion right it the stuffing of the emotion right it doesn't it it's not honoring yourself doesn't it it's not honoring yourself doesn't it it's not honoring yourself it's in disservice to yourself of it's it's in disservice to yourself of it's it's in disservice to yourself of it's this theme of like not like it's like this theme of like not like it's like this theme of like not like it's like avoiding yourself and not coming to avoiding yourself and not coming to avoiding yourself and not coming to terms terms with tricky things and it's terms terms with tricky things and it's terms terms with tricky things and it's hard coming to terms with tricky things hard coming to terms with tricky things hard coming to terms with tricky things but on the other end like I had that but on the other end like I had that but on the other end like I had that like Guinness Book of World Records most like Guinness Book of World Records most like Guinness Book of World Records most awkward conversation with my mom and awkward conversation with my mom and awkward conversation with my mom and like we are closer than ever like we had like we are closer than ever like we had like we are closer than ever like we had this amazing convo after that made like this amazing convo after that made like this amazing convo after that made like during this whole thing it was like during this whole thing it was like during this whole thing it was like two-hour conversation we and and and two-hour conversation we and and and two-hour conversation we and and and things that I had felt alone in I things that I had felt alone in I things that I had felt alone in I suddenly didn't feel alone in for suddenly didn't feel alone in for suddenly didn't feel alone in for example we we talked about love and what example we we talked about love and what example we we talked about love and what she thinks love is and what I like it she thinks love is and what I like it she thinks love is and what I like it was fascinating and and and I said you was fascinating and and and I said you was fascinating and and and I said you know Mom, I when I had Oliver, our know Mom, I when I had Oliver, our know Mom, I when I had Oliver, our firstborn, when they put him on my firstborn, when they put him on my firstborn, when they put him on my chest, I didn't feel like goooo gaga chest, I didn't feel like goooo gaga chest, I didn't feel like goooo gaga love towards him. I felt duty and love towards him. I felt duty and love towards him. I felt duty and responsibility and I felt curiosity like responsibility and I felt curiosity like responsibility and I felt curiosity like this is an alien human that just came this is an alien human that just came this is an alien human that just came on. Like it was very cognitive, on. Like it was very cognitive, on. Like it was very cognitive, >> but I've always felt I had always felt a >> but I've always felt I had always felt a >> but I've always felt I had always felt a little ashamed at that cuz I'm like so little ashamed at that cuz I'm like so little ashamed at that cuz I'm like so many moms are like the a different way. many moms are like the a different way. many moms are like the a different way. They're like, "Oh my god, my I need to They're like, "Oh my god, my I need to They're like, "Oh my god, my I need to nurture it." Which is great, but I nurture it." Which is great, but I nurture it." Which is great, but I didn't feel that way. And she said, "I didn't feel that way. And she said, "I didn't feel that way. And she said, "I felt the same way. I didn't, you know, felt the same way. I didn't, you know, felt the same way. I didn't, you know, it came after once I now I'm like super it came after once I now I'm like super it came after once I now I'm like super goooo gaga mama. I kiss their feet. I goooo gaga mama. I kiss their feet. I goooo gaga mama. I kiss their feet. I kiss their bums. I'm obsessed." kiss their bums. I'm obsessed." kiss their bums. I'm obsessed." >> But it came after for me. And so it was >> But it came after for me. And so it was >> But it came after for me. And so it was just a wonderful conversation of and and just a wonderful conversation of and and just a wonderful conversation of and and that's what happens when you open up. that's what happens when you open up. that's what happens when you open up. You're less alone. Um, but on the You're less alone. Um, but on the You're less alone. Um, but on the self-respect issue, I also think that self-respect issue, I also think that self-respect issue, I also think that when you say hard things to other when you say hard things to other when you say hard things to other people, so for example, a great a great people, so for example, a great a great people, so for example, a great a great case here would be giving difficult case here would be giving difficult case here would be giving difficult feedback to someone, right? Yes. um as feedback to someone, right? Yes. um as feedback to someone, right? Yes. um as an entrepreneur as like you often have an entrepreneur as like you often have an entrepreneur as like you often have to give difficult feedback to people I to give difficult feedback to people I to give difficult feedback to people I would imagine. would imagine. would imagine. >> Is it important to give difficult >> Is it important to give difficult >> Is it important to give difficult feedback to people in your life? feedback to people in your life? feedback to people in your life? >> Yes, 100%. It's a gift. It's a gift >> Yes, 100%. It's a gift. It's a gift >> Yes, 100%. It's a gift. It's a gift >> because >> because >> because >> what if people can't receive feedback? >> what if people can't receive feedback? >> what if people can't receive feedback? >> Well, that's where being a good feedback >> Well, that's where being a good feedback >> Well, that's where being a good feedback giver is. Even if you give it and you're giver is. Even if you give it and you're giver is. Even if you give it and you're like walking in your tippy toes, you're like walking in your tippy toes, you're like walking in your tippy toes, you're like, you know, and you say five like, you know, and you say five like, you know, and you say five compliments first, but just one thing compliments first, but just one thing compliments first, but just one thing and they're just like heartbroken like and they're just like heartbroken like and they're just like heartbroken like >> you could still try to give it the best >> you could still try to give it the best >> you could still try to give it the best way, calmst way, way, calmst way, way, calmst way, >> empowering them, lifting them up, >> empowering them, lifting them up, >> empowering them, lifting them up, >> sandwich one little note of like what >> sandwich one little note of like what >> sandwich one little note of like what they need and then add something else they need and then add something else they need and then add something else and still people may not be able to and still people may not be able to and still people may not be able to receive it. receive it. receive it. >> True. Um I guess I'm a big believer in >> True. Um I guess I'm a big believer in >> True. Um I guess I'm a big believer in the skill of delivering feedback. Mhm. the skill of delivering feedback. Mhm. the skill of delivering feedback. Mhm. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> sure there are people that are so >> sure there are people that are so >> sure there are people that are so defensive and so insecure defensive and so insecure defensive and so insecure um, and so in a hard place in life that um, and so in a hard place in life that um, and so in a hard place in life that they just can't take it. they just can't take it. they just can't take it. >> But that's also part of the feedback >> But that's also part of the feedback >> But that's also part of the feedback givers role is like, is this the right givers role is like, is this the right givers role is like, is this the right time for this person? And you have to be time for this person? And you have to be time for this person? And you have to be patient. patient. patient. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> yes. And if you wait and never express, >> yes. And if you wait and never express, >> yes. And if you wait and never express, >> it's too late. No, no, I know it's >> it's too late. No, no, I know it's >> it's too late. No, no, I know it's great. great. great. >> It could be a month later like, oh, >> It could be a month later like, oh, >> It could be a month later like, oh, let's wait till a better time. There let's wait till a better time. There let's wait till a better time. There might not be a better time. share might not be a better time. share might not be a better time. share >> and get them to share, >> and get them to share, >> and get them to share, >> right? And I think that so some of the >> right? And I think that so some of the >> right? And I think that so some of the ways what you said about respect I think ways what you said about respect I think ways what you said about respect I think is really wonderful because I think is really wonderful because I think is really wonderful because I think that's a great way to frame difficult that's a great way to frame difficult that's a great way to frame difficult feedback. I know we've heard of this feedback. I know we've heard of this feedback. I know we've heard of this feedback sandwich. You said it um I've feedback sandwich. You said it um I've feedback sandwich. You said it um I've actually done research on the feedback actually done research on the feedback actually done research on the feedback sandwich because I viewed it with sandwich because I viewed it with sandwich because I viewed it with contempt cuz I'm like this is BS. Like contempt cuz I'm like this is BS. Like contempt cuz I'm like this is BS. Like the sandwich just because by the time the sandwich just because by the time the sandwich just because by the time you get to the middle if you put you get to the middle if you put you get to the middle if you put compliments everywhere people are going compliments everywhere people are going compliments everywhere people are going to forget. So I actually with my bestie to forget. So I actually with my bestie to forget. So I actually with my bestie Allison Brooks and a colleague we did Allison Brooks and a colleague we did Allison Brooks and a colleague we did studies on this where we are we are studies on this where we are we are studies on this where we are we are varying the order of feedback to see if varying the order of feedback to see if varying the order of feedback to see if the sandwich because we were we it was the sandwich because we were we it was the sandwich because we were we it was like I viewed it with contempt. We're like I viewed it with contempt. We're like I viewed it with contempt. We're like screw this. like screw this. like screw this. >> So what so what is the best way to give >> So what so what is the best way to give >> So what so what is the best way to give feedback based on your research feedback based on your research feedback based on your research >> the sandwich works really. We were like >> the sandwich works really. We were like >> the sandwich works really. We were like tail between our legs. The most tail between our legs. The most tail between our legs. The most important thing it's the end doesn't important thing it's the end doesn't important thing it's the end doesn't matter. The end actually positive at the matter. The end actually positive at the matter. The end actually positive at the end isn't so important. It's starting end isn't so important. It's starting end isn't so important. It's starting with the positive and but that can mean with the positive and but that can mean with the positive and but that can mean a lot of things. I love the respect a lot of things. I love the respect a lot of things. I love the respect because you can say, "Look, because you can say, "Look, because you can say, "Look, I respect you. I owe it to you. You I respect you. I owe it to you. You I respect you. I owe it to you. You deserve my the honest truth here, deserve my the honest truth here, deserve my the honest truth here, right?" Like, right?" Like, right?" Like, >> I'm giving you feedback because I >> I'm giving you feedback because I >> I'm giving you feedback because I respect you. If I don't give you respect you. If I don't give you respect you. If I don't give you continual feedback, continual feedback, continual feedback, >> then I don't care. >> then I don't care. >> then I don't care. >> I'm not being kind. Kindness is is >> I'm not being kind. Kindness is is >> I'm not being kind. Kindness is is >> wanting to see you grow. Wanting to see >> wanting to see you grow. Wanting to see >> wanting to see you grow. Wanting to see you grow you grow you grow >> 100%. And I um so I'm the official bad >> 100%. And I um so I'm the official bad >> 100%. And I um so I'm the official bad guy at HBS because I know I don't look guy at HBS because I know I don't look guy at HBS because I know I don't look like a bad guy. I don't think so. Um but like a bad guy. I don't think so. Um but like a bad guy. I don't think so. Um but so I am the chair of the academic so I am the chair of the academic so I am the chair of the academic performance committee. So whenever MBAs performance committee. So whenever MBAs performance committee. So whenever MBAs get enough bad grades for whatever get enough bad grades for whatever get enough bad grades for whatever reason, they come before my committee reason, they come before my committee reason, they come before my committee and they have to kind of make an appeal and they have to kind of make an appeal and they have to kind of make an appeal to to to >> have been in your office constantly. >> have been in your office constantly. >> have been in your office constantly. >> Well, first off, I would have never >> Well, first off, I would have never >> Well, first off, I would have never gotten it to Harvard, but I would been gotten it to Harvard, but I would been gotten it to Harvard, but I would been there. I would have I'd been in your there. I would have I'd been in your there. I would have I'd been in your office constantly. office constantly. office constantly. >> Um and so I have evolved in the way I >> Um and so I have evolved in the way I >> Um and so I have evolved in the way I handle these meetings because handle these meetings because handle these meetings because >> so the people they're upset. They're >> so the people they're upset. They're >> so the people they're upset. They're like, "Why did I why am I having to like, "Why did I why am I having to like, "Why did I why am I having to leave or why am I having to take xiss or leave or why am I having to take xiss or leave or why am I having to take xiss or whatever?" And my initial approach in whatever?" And my initial approach in whatever?" And my initial approach in these meetings, they ask a question and these meetings, they ask a question and these meetings, they ask a question and I answer it and I'm like, "Here's why." I answer it and I'm like, "Here's why." I answer it and I'm like, "Here's why." But that's such a terrible like it puts But that's such a terrible like it puts But that's such a terrible like it puts it on a like defend and here's why you it on a like defend and here's why you it on a like defend and here's why you and now and it never went over well. And and now and it never went over well. And and now and it never went over well. And now what I do is the first 20 minutes of now what I do is the first 20 minutes of now what I do is the first 20 minutes of the meeting, I don't say anything. I let the meeting, I don't say anything. I let the meeting, I don't say anything. I let them talk. And if they try to ask me them talk. And if they try to ask me them talk. And if they try to ask me why, I just ask them back. Like I they why, I just ask them back. Like I they why, I just ask them back. Like I they need to talk. they need to tell me how need to talk. they need to tell me how need to talk. they need to tell me how they feel. They don't know they need to they feel. They don't know they need to they feel. They don't know they need to do this, but they need to be heard. So, do this, but they need to be heard. So, do this, but they need to be heard. So, I hear them. And then after I've heard I hear them. And then after I've heard I hear them. And then after I've heard them, I also learn more about them and I them, I also learn more about them and I them, I also learn more about them and I learn more about how I may actually be learn more about how I may actually be learn more about how I may actually be able to help them. And then it's super able to help them. And then it's super able to help them. And then it's super constructive because we get into like constructive because we get into like constructive because we get into like what we can actually do. Um, and so I what we can actually do. Um, and so I what we can actually do. Um, and so I think that sometimes when we give think that sometimes when we give think that sometimes when we give difficult feedback, we think we need to difficult feedback, we think we need to difficult feedback, we think we need to be more active, but like just just be more active, but like just just be more active, but like just just listening, there's so much value in listening, there's so much value in listening, there's so much value in people just they need to they need to people just they need to they need to people just they need to they need to get it out to you. Even if you already get it out to you. Even if you already get it out to you. Even if you already know what they're going to say, the know what they're going to say, the know what they're going to say, the action of them telling you is incredibly action of them telling you is incredibly action of them telling you is incredibly important. important. important. >> So interesting because I essentially >> So interesting because I essentially >> So interesting because I essentially have one have one have one >> I don't know if it's rule, >> I don't know if it's rule, >> I don't know if it's rule, >> but before me and my wife got in a >> but before me and my wife got in a >> but before me and my wife got in a committed relationship as we were committed relationship as we were committed relationship as we were dating, dating, dating, >> not not marriage, but when we were kind >> not not marriage, but when we were kind >> not not marriage, but when we were kind of dating, of dating, of dating, >> I said, "Listen, I'm willing to comm you >> I said, "Listen, I'm willing to comm you >> I said, "Listen, I'm willing to comm you know, know, know, >> I'm willing to commit and go all in." >> I'm willing to commit and go all in." >> I'm willing to commit and go all in." And it was like a big decision to like And it was like a big decision to like And it was like a big decision to like get in another relationship after I'd get in another relationship after I'd get in another relationship after I'd had many relationships that were had many relationships that were had many relationships that were challenging. I'd done a lot of healing challenging. I'd done a lot of healing challenging. I'd done a lot of healing work. And I was like, listen, I'm work. And I was like, listen, I'm work. And I was like, listen, I'm willing to commit and go allin with the willing to commit and go allin with the willing to commit and go allin with the intention of getting married in the intention of getting married in the intention of getting married in the future, with the intention of having future, with the intention of having future, with the intention of having kids in the future, creating a family, kids in the future, creating a family, kids in the future, creating a family, not just date to date. Yeah. not just date to date. Yeah. not just date to date. Yeah. >> But I was like, okay, we're starting to >> But I was like, okay, we're starting to >> But I was like, okay, we're starting to learn each other's values. learn each other's values. learn each other's values. >> I'm understanding your values. These are >> I'm understanding your values. These are >> I'm understanding your values. These are my values. This is what I want for my my values. This is what I want for my my values. This is what I want for my future. So it's with that context in future. So it's with that context in future. So it's with that context in mind. Okay, let's do this. knowing that mind. Okay, let's do this. knowing that mind. Okay, let's do this. knowing that that is our intention, that is our intention, that is our intention, >> not just we like each other, let's date >> not just we like each other, let's date >> not just we like each other, let's date to date, to date, to date, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I said, I have one condition, >> I said, I have one condition, >> I said, I have one condition, >> only one. I said, I will never get mad >> only one. I said, I will never get mad >> only one. I said, I will never get mad at you for anything. at you for anything. at you for anything. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> never get mad at you. If you do, if you >> never get mad at you. If you do, if you >> never get mad at you. If you do, if you do whatever you're going to do, you act do whatever you're going to do, you act do whatever you're going to do, you act who you are. I feel like I know you who you are. I feel like I know you who you are. I feel like I know you enough now with the time that we've been enough now with the time that we've been enough now with the time that we've been dating for a while. I ago, I won't get dating for a while. I ago, I won't get dating for a while. I ago, I won't get mad at you. I might get frustrated or mad at you. I might get frustrated or mad at you. I might get frustrated or like annoyed, but I'm not going to get like annoyed, but I'm not going to get like annoyed, but I'm not going to get mad at you. I'm not going to yell at I'm mad at you. I'm not going to yell at I'm mad at you. I'm not going to yell at I'm never going to raise my voice never going to raise my voice never going to raise my voice >> cuz I'm going to choose to accept you >> cuz I'm going to choose to accept you >> cuz I'm going to choose to accept you for who you are. I may not like things for who you are. I may not like things for who you are. I may not like things you do, but I'm going to choose to you do, but I'm going to choose to you do, but I'm going to choose to accept you. accept you. accept you. >> And create agreements around these >> And create agreements around these >> And create agreements around these things. Yeah. things. Yeah. things. Yeah. >> And I only have one condition. The >> And I only have one condition. The >> And I only have one condition. The condition is you cannot get mad at me if condition is you cannot get mad at me if condition is you cannot get mad at me if you're upset with me about something. you're upset with me about something. you're upset with me about something. You have to bring me first. Come to me You have to bring me first. Come to me You have to bring me first. Come to me and talk about at least one thing you and talk about at least one thing you and talk about at least one thing you appreciate about me about me first. appreciate about me about me first. appreciate about me about me first. >> Then we can talk all day long about >> Then we can talk all day long about >> Then we can talk all day long about something that's bothering you. something that's bothering you. something that's bothering you. >> Disarming, isn't it? If something is >> Disarming, isn't it? If something is >> Disarming, isn't it? If something is upsetting you or bothering you that you upsetting you or bothering you that you upsetting you or bothering you that you want to talk about, I will listen to you want to talk about, I will listen to you want to talk about, I will listen to you for hours. for hours. for hours. >> I will speak to you and disarm it. >> I will speak to you and disarm it. >> I will speak to you and disarm it. >> But you just have to >> But you just have to >> But you just have to >> because my whole life >> because my whole life >> because my whole life >> is going to be committed to finding ways >> is going to be committed to finding ways >> is going to be committed to finding ways to improve your life. to improve your life. to improve your life. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And if you come to me by one thing that >> And if you come to me by one thing that >> And if you come to me by one thing that you're upset about. you're upset about. you're upset about. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you don't just acknowledge at least >> And you don't just acknowledge at least >> And you don't just acknowledge at least the good I've been doing for the last 3 the good I've been doing for the last 3 the good I've been doing for the last 3 months. months. months. >> Right. Right. of like how I continue to >> Right. Right. of like how I continue to >> Right. Right. of like how I continue to add value and how I show up and how I'm add value and how I show up and how I'm add value and how I show up and how I'm present, how I listen and how I present, how I listen and how I present, how I listen and how I >> take us out and do experiences and >> take us out and do experiences and >> take us out and do experiences and provide and protect. provide and protect. provide and protect. >> If you just come to me with the one >> If you just come to me with the one >> If you just come to me with the one thing that's bothering you and you don't thing that's bothering you and you don't thing that's bothering you and you don't acknowledge at least one big thing, acknowledge at least one big thing, acknowledge at least one big thing, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> I'm going to be up then I'm going to be >> I'm going to be up then I'm going to be >> I'm going to be up then I'm going to be upset. That's the only time I'll be upset. That's the only time I'll be upset. That's the only time I'll be angry. angry. angry. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I said, "Can we agree on this?" >> And I said, "Can we agree on this?" >> And I said, "Can we agree on this?" >> What did she say? >> What did she say? >> What did she say? >> She said, "Yeah." She didn't understand >> She said, "Yeah." She didn't understand >> She said, "Yeah." She didn't understand it at first cuz she's like, "What if I it at first cuz she's like, "What if I it at first cuz she's like, "What if I just am upset about something?" I go, just am upset about something?" I go, just am upset about something?" I go, "That doesn't work for me. "That doesn't work for me. "That doesn't work for me. >> And if that's the case, >> And if that's the case, >> And if that's the case, >> then I'm not the right guy for you." >> then I'm not the right guy for you." >> then I'm not the right guy for you." >> Uhhuh. If all you have to do is just >> Uhhuh. If all you have to do is just >> Uhhuh. If all you have to do is just say, "I really appreciate this and say, "I really appreciate this and say, "I really appreciate this and there's there's something that's been on there's there's something that's been on there's there's something that's been on my heart that I want to talk about." my heart that I want to talk about." my heart that I want to talk about." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I said, "Maybe I messed up because I'm >> I said, "Maybe I messed up because I'm >> I said, "Maybe I messed up because I'm having that request, having that request, having that request, >> but it's going to make me a better >> but it's going to make me a better >> but it's going to make me a better partner. It's going to make me a better partner. It's going to make me a better partner. It's going to make me a better partner." partner." partner." >> Because you have to understand in my >> Because you have to understand in my >> Because you have to understand in my mind all day I'm thinking about how to mind all day I'm thinking about how to mind all day I'm thinking about how to make your life better make your life better make your life better >> and I'm acting in accordance and I'm >> and I'm acting in accordance and I'm >> and I'm acting in accordance and I'm committing my life to you. committing my life to you. committing my life to you. >> I'm eliminating every other option in >> I'm eliminating every other option in >> I'm eliminating every other option in the world to focus on you. the world to focus on you. the world to focus on you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And to create a life that we envision >> And to create a life that we envision >> And to create a life that we envision together. together. together. >> Yeah. And all I ask in return is you >> Yeah. And all I ask in return is you >> Yeah. And all I ask in return is you don't get angry, upset, or raise your don't get angry, upset, or raise your don't get angry, upset, or raise your voice at me. Just talk to me. voice at me. Just talk to me. voice at me. Just talk to me. >> You can be upset, >> You can be upset, >> You can be upset, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But just tell me one thing you >> But just tell me one thing you >> But just tell me one thing you appreciate first appreciate first appreciate first >> so that I feel seen for the constant >> so that I feel seen for the constant >> so that I feel seen for the constant effort that I'm putting in effort that I'm putting in effort that I'm putting in >> versus just >> versus just >> versus just >> I don't like you did this. I didn't like >> I don't like you did this. I didn't like >> I don't like you did this. I didn't like you did this. Why'd you do this? Like, you did this. Why'd you do this? Like, you did this. Why'd you do this? Like, no, that doesn't work for me. no, that doesn't work for me. no, that doesn't work for me. >> If you need to do that, >> If you need to do that, >> If you need to do that, >> find another guy. >> find another guy. >> find another guy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And all the best. >> And all the best. >> And all the best. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'll be single and that's okay. >> And I'll be single and that's okay. >> And I'll be single and that's okay. >> Yeah. You know, it doesn't mean it's >> Yeah. You know, it doesn't mean it's >> Yeah. You know, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It's just was my right or wrong. It's just was my right or wrong. It's just was my request. request. request. >> Yeah. Totally. >> Yeah. Totally. >> Yeah. Totally. >> And I think it's because I had in in >> And I think it's because I had in in >> And I think it's because I had in in most of my previous relationships, not most of my previous relationships, not most of my previous relationships, not all of them, but most of them, all of them, but most of them, all of them, but most of them, >> I felt under attack constantly for who I >> I felt under attack constantly for who I >> I felt under attack constantly for who I was was was >> and under underappreciated. >> and under underappreciated. >> and under underappreciated. >> Underappreciated, but it was more like >> Underappreciated, but it was more like >> Underappreciated, but it was more like just under attack, you know? It's like, just under attack, you know? It's like, just under attack, you know? It's like, >> why you doing this or why is that or why >> why you doing this or why is that or why >> why you doing this or why is that or why is this? They I didn't feel understood is this? They I didn't feel understood is this? They I didn't feel understood and then therefore there was a and then therefore there was a and then therefore there was a frustration. Maybe it was a mind frustration. Maybe it was a mind frustration. Maybe it was a mind readading expectation or whatever it is. readading expectation or whatever it is. readading expectation or whatever it is. >> Mhm. or they wanted me to be a different >> Mhm. or they wanted me to be a different >> Mhm. or they wanted me to be a different person. person. person. >> They expected me once we were together. >> They expected me once we were together. >> They expected me once we were together. Now I'm going to be a different person Now I'm going to be a different person Now I'm going to be a different person as opposed to this is who I am. Accept as opposed to this is who I am. Accept as opposed to this is who I am. Accept me and all me and all me and all >> or don't be with me and that's okay. >> or don't be with me and that's okay. >> or don't be with me and that's okay. >> And I lacked the courage to get out of >> And I lacked the courage to get out of >> And I lacked the courage to get out of those relationships. So I just I changed those relationships. So I just I changed those relationships. So I just I changed >> to make them happy. >> to make them happy. >> to make them happy. >> You were you weren't you then? >> You were you weren't you then? >> You were you weren't you then? >> I wasn't happy and they still weren't >> I wasn't happy and they still weren't >> I wasn't happy and they still weren't happy. So no matter how much I changed, happy. So no matter how much I changed, happy. So no matter how much I changed, they still weren't happy. So I was like, they still weren't happy. So I was like, they still weren't happy. So I was like, I'm never going to change for you, I'm never going to change for you, I'm never going to change for you, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Sounds harsh, but it's real. >> Sounds harsh, but it's real. >> Sounds harsh, but it's real. >> But I'm going to improve. I'm going to >> But I'm going to improve. I'm going to >> But I'm going to improve. I'm going to grow. I'm going to be constantly grow. I'm going to be constantly grow. I'm going to be constantly evolving. constantly healing. evolving. constantly healing. evolving. constantly healing. >> You will change cuz we all change. But >> You will change cuz we all change. But >> You will change cuz we all change. But I'm not going to change to your I'm not going to change to your I'm not going to change to your specifications. Yeah. specifications. Yeah. specifications. Yeah. >> So, accept me. I will fully accept you. >> So, accept me. I will fully accept you. >> So, accept me. I will fully accept you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If something bothers me, I'll just talk >> If something bothers me, I'll just talk >> If something bothers me, I'll just talk to you about it. to you about it. to you about it. >> So, I'm curious. Did your wife have any >> So, I'm curious. Did your wife have any >> So, I'm curious. Did your wife have any um conditions? um conditions? um conditions? >> No. I mean, besides like if we're going >> No. I mean, besides like if we're going >> No. I mean, besides like if we're going to be exclusively dating, the intention to be exclusively dating, the intention to be exclusively dating, the intention is we're going to be getting married and is we're going to be getting married and is we're going to be getting married and we're we're getting kids. We're older. we're we're getting kids. We're older. we're we're getting kids. We're older. We're 38 when we met. We're 38 when we met. We're 38 when we met. >> Exactly. She was like, I can't waste my >> Exactly. She was like, I can't waste my >> Exactly. She was like, I can't waste my time being in a relationship. And so it time being in a relationship. And so it time being in a relationship. And so it wasn't more of like conditions, it was wasn't more of like conditions, it was wasn't more of like conditions, it was more like agreements. more like agreements. more like agreements. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think I was so clear. We also >> And I think I was so clear. We also >> And I think I was so clear. We also started the relationship in therapy. I started the relationship in therapy. I started the relationship in therapy. I said, "I'm not getting a committed said, "I'm not getting a committed said, "I'm not getting a committed relationship unless we start in relationship unless we start in relationship unless we start in therapy." Love it. therapy." Love it. therapy." Love it. >> She was like, "I'm in." >> She was like, "I'm in." >> She was like, "I'm in." >> So for me, so for me, I was like, "I >> So for me, so for me, I was like, "I >> So for me, so for me, I was like, "I don't want to go two years and then it's don't want to go two years and then it's don't want to go two years and then it's just like we're exhausted or it doesn't just like we're exhausted or it doesn't just like we're exhausted or it doesn't work out or the first year is good and work out or the first year is good and work out or the first year is good and then then then >> I'm a huge fan of like proactive >> I'm a huge fan of like proactive >> I'm a huge fan of like proactive therapy. Everybody can use therapy. Once therapy. Everybody can use therapy. Once therapy. Everybody can use therapy. Once you're having problems, it's like too you're having problems, it's like too you're having problems, it's like too late." No, start with get not get all late." No, start with get not get all late." No, start with get not get all the problems out of the way, but like the problems out of the way, but like the problems out of the way, but like start with start with start with >> healing individually and creating >> healing individually and creating >> healing individually and creating agreements together agreements together agreements together >> to create less issues in the future. >> to create less issues in the future. >> to create less issues in the future. Doesn't mean we don't have things we Doesn't mean we don't have things we Doesn't mean we don't have things we need to overcome together. need to overcome together. need to overcome together. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> But I feel like we have this um ability >> But I feel like we have this um ability >> But I feel like we have this um ability to communicate to communicate to communicate >> based on our values and our vision and >> based on our values and our vision and >> based on our values and our vision and our lifestyle and understanding each our lifestyle and understanding each our lifestyle and understanding each other. So anyways, I got off here. But other. So anyways, I got off here. But other. So anyways, I got off here. But >> beautiful. I'm curious when a person >> beautiful. I'm curious when a person >> beautiful. I'm curious when a person what happens to a person inside of them what happens to a person inside of them what happens to a person inside of them when they decide not to share what's when they decide not to share what's when they decide not to share what's really going on. They they hide back really going on. They they hide back really going on. They they hide back their feelings like you held back your their feelings like you held back your their feelings like you held back your feelings for 10 years to your mom. feelings for 10 years to your mom. feelings for 10 years to your mom. >> I know >> I know >> I know >> if you don't really say how you feel to >> if you don't really say how you feel to >> if you don't really say how you feel to your partner. your partner. your partner. >> What is happening inside of them when >> What is happening inside of them when >> What is happening inside of them when they when those things start to pile up? they when those things start to pile up? they when those things start to pile up? >> And I know you have like this this >> And I know you have like this this >> And I know you have like this this >> demonstration maybe you can. >> demonstration maybe you can. >> demonstration maybe you can. >> Yeah, sure. Um well, okay. So the first >> Yeah, sure. Um well, okay. So the first >> Yeah, sure. Um well, okay. So the first um I think if we were to to pack unpack um I think if we were to to pack unpack um I think if we were to to pack unpack this the big picture plight of the book this the big picture plight of the book this the big picture plight of the book is I would like to make visible is I would like to make visible is I would like to make visible something that is usually invisible to something that is usually invisible to something that is usually invisible to us and that's us and that's us and that's >> the dozens hundreds thousands of >> the dozens hundreds thousands of >> the dozens hundreds thousands of disclosure decisions we make every disclosure decisions we make every disclosure decisions we make every single day. single day. single day. >> What's a disclosure decision? What does >> What's a disclosure decision? What does >> What's a disclosure decision? What does that mean? that mean? that mean? >> Right? So, I'm going to walk you through >> Right? So, I'm going to walk you through >> Right? So, I'm going to walk you through day in the life of disclosure decision day in the life of disclosure decision day in the life of disclosure decision making. Okay? making. Okay? making. Okay? >> And sometimes we decide to reveal the >> And sometimes we decide to reveal the >> And sometimes we decide to reveal the thing, to say the thing, thing, to say the thing, thing, to say the thing, >> but often times we don't. >> but often times we don't. >> but often times we don't. >> Um, so let's My point though that we'll >> Um, so let's My point though that we'll >> Um, so let's My point though that we'll get to, spoiler alert, is that even not saying, even the things we even not saying, even the things we don't say are still a choice. don't say are still a choice. don't say are still a choice. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, what we're going to do is >> Okay. So, what we're going to do is >> Okay. So, what we're going to do is we're going to go day in the life. Let we're going to go day in the life. Let we're going to go day in the life. Let me get my Sharpie. I like a Sharpie. me get my Sharpie. I like a Sharpie. me get my Sharpie. I like a Sharpie. Shapi said like a Canadian. Okay. And Shapi said like a Canadian. Okay. And Shapi said like a Canadian. Okay. And want to hold that. Okay. want to hold that. Okay. want to hold that. Okay. >> So, >> So, >> So, um, okay. Here's a day in the life. You um, okay. Here's a day in the life. You um, okay. Here's a day in the life. You wake up in the morning and wake up in the morning and wake up in the morning and alarm goes on. You roll over to your alarm goes on. You roll over to your alarm goes on. You roll over to your spouse. You say, we'll start off cuddly spouse. You say, we'll start off cuddly spouse. You say, we'll start off cuddly and nice. I love you, dear. So, you say and nice. I love you, dear. So, you say and nice. I love you, dear. So, you say that. that. that. >> Put that in that one. >> Put that in that one. >> Put that in that one. >> I love you. >> I love you. >> I love you. >> Okay. And then and then you're like, >> Okay. And then and then you're like, >> Okay. And then and then you're like, "Oh, I feel like I "Oh, I feel like I "Oh, I feel like I slept so badly." slept so badly." slept so badly." >> You just think it, >> You just think it, >> You just think it, >> but you don't say it. >> but you don't say it. >> but you don't say it. >> You don't say it. >> You don't say it. >> You don't say it. >> It goes in the jar. Yeah. >> It goes in the jar. Yeah. >> It goes in the jar. Yeah. >> How many times have you like You don't >> How many times have you like You don't >> How many times have you like You don't want to be whiny. You You want to be a want to be whiny. You You want to be a want to be whiny. You You want to be a buzzkill from day one. Okay. Oh, yeah. buzzkill from day one. Okay. Oh, yeah. buzzkill from day one. Okay. Oh, yeah. Hold them both. Okay. Perfect. Um All Hold them both. Okay. Perfect. Um All Hold them both. Okay. Perfect. Um All right. So, then you go to the you you right. So, then you go to the you you right. So, then you go to the you you get you both get up with your spouse. get you both get up with your spouse. get you both get up with your spouse. You're in the bathroom. You look at You're in the bathroom. You look at You're in the bathroom. You look at yourself in the mirror and you say you yourself in the mirror and you say you yourself in the mirror and you say you kind of feel a little disappointed kind of feel a little disappointed kind of feel a little disappointed >> because you think I look >> because you think I look >> because you think I look okay. okay. okay. That's unsaid. That's unsaid. That's unsaid. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And then you say you think to yourself, >> And then you say you think to yourself, >> And then you say you think to yourself, I really I feel I really I feel I really I feel older than I thought I would at this older than I thought I would at this older than I thought I would at this age. age. age. >> And you think it >> And you think it >> And you think it >> you think it. Okay. brushing your teeth. >> you think it. Okay. brushing your teeth. >> you think it. Okay. brushing your teeth. You go down, go down to the kitchen. You go down, go down to the kitchen. You go down, go down to the kitchen. Kids are mauling about. Hubby's making Kids are mauling about. Hubby's making Kids are mauling about. Hubby's making lunch for the kids. Hubby says, "Um, lunch for the kids. Hubby says, "Um, lunch for the kids. Hubby says, "Um, what should I give the kids for snack?" what should I give the kids for snack?" what should I give the kids for snack?" And you say, "Just just pick something. And you say, "Just just pick something. And you say, "Just just pick something. Just pick something." God. Just pick something." God. Just pick something." God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not another decision for mama. >> Not another decision for mama. >> Not another decision for mama. >> Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> then you you know he's like, "What? I'm >> then you you know he's like, "What? I'm >> then you you know he's like, "What? I'm just trying to make lunch. What are you just trying to make lunch. What are you just trying to make lunch. What are you talking about?" What you didn't say is talking about?" What you didn't say is talking about?" What you didn't say is um I am on edge today because I haven't um I am on edge today because I haven't um I am on edge today because I haven't slept. I'm really nervous about a my slept. I'm really nervous about a my slept. I'm really nervous about a my work today. I may be okay. It's a lot of work today. I may be okay. It's a lot of work today. I may be okay. It's a lot of thought unsaid. thought unsaid. thought unsaid. >> Unset. I may be >> Unset. I may be >> Unset. I may be >> because of this I may be a little >> because of this I may be a little >> because of this I may be a little snappy. It's not you, snappy. It's not you, snappy. It's not you, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Um that's why I'm snapping. It's not >> Um that's why I'm snapping. It's not >> Um that's why I'm snapping. It's not really about the snash. really about the snash. really about the snash. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and and I could >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and and I could >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and and I could use a hug. use a hug. use a hug. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So you don't say any of that. You just >> So you don't say any of that. You just >> So you don't say any of that. You just you just you just you just >> expecting them to understand you. >> expecting them to understand you. >> expecting them to understand you. >> Yeah. And now he's now he's pissed cuz >> Yeah. And now he's now he's pissed cuz >> Yeah. And now he's now he's pissed cuz he's like look at this. She's so such an he's like look at this. She's so such an he's like look at this. She's so such an ungrateful head. Like I'm doing this. ungrateful head. Like I'm doing this. ungrateful head. Like I'm doing this. She could just answer a question. And She could just answer a question. And She could just answer a question. And it's never about that the the the stupid it's never about that the the the stupid it's never about that the the the stupid snack, right? It's these things. Okay. snack, right? It's these things. Okay. snack, right? It's these things. Okay. So then I'm digressing. Okay. So then So then I'm digressing. Okay. So then So then I'm digressing. Okay. So then you you get in the car, you drive your you you get in the car, you drive your you you get in the car, you drive your kids you get in the car to drive your kids you get in the car to drive your kids you get in the car to drive your kids to school. Your dad calls. He says, kids to school. Your dad calls. He says, kids to school. Your dad calls. He says, "Oh, I'm driving. I'm on the way to the "Oh, I'm driving. I'm on the way to the "Oh, I'm driving. I'm on the way to the doctor's office." And you what you think doctor's office." And you what you think doctor's office." And you what you think is, "Whoa, 70-year-old dad driving is, "Whoa, 70-year-old dad driving is, "Whoa, 70-year-old dad driving has some dementia issues. Possibly has some dementia issues. Possibly has some dementia issues. Possibly shouldn't be driving. I'm worried about shouldn't be driving. I'm worried about shouldn't be driving. I'm worried about him behind the camera." What you say is, him behind the camera." What you say is, him behind the camera." What you say is, "Hey, let's uh let's talk later when "Hey, let's uh let's talk later when "Hey, let's uh let's talk later when when you're on the car, when you're on the car, when you're on the car, >> Dad." >> Dad." >> Dad." >> So, you said that. Yeah. >> So, you said that. Yeah. >> So, you said that. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you said that. So, then you >> Yeah. So, you said that. So, then you >> Yeah. So, you said that. So, then you you get to work. Your assistant says, you get to work. Your assistant says, you get to work. Your assistant says, "Hey, how you doing?" You say, "Great. "Hey, how you doing?" You say, "Great. "Hey, how you doing?" You say, "Great. What you don't say is, What you don't say is, What you don't say is, >> "I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed." >> "I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed." >> "I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed." >> I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. So, on >> I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. So, on >> I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. So, on and on and on the day goes, right? We're and on and on the day goes, right? We're and on and on the day goes, right? We're mounting up. And And so, you can see mounting up. And And so, you can see mounting up. And And so, you can see that I could go on and on. I won't, but that I could go on and on. I won't, but that I could go on and on. I won't, but >> like we don't need statistics to know >> like we don't need statistics to know >> like we don't need statistics to know that there was a heck of a lot more that there was a heck of a lot more that there was a heck of a lot more going into the unsaid. Yes. going into the unsaid. Yes. going into the unsaid. Yes. >> Than into the said. And we could even >> Than into the said. And we could even >> Than into the said. And we could even like be huge nerds and look at what like be huge nerds and look at what like be huge nerds and look at what these are and a lot of them are these are and a lot of them are these are and a lot of them are feelings, right? Um, a lot of the things feelings, right? Um, a lot of the things feelings, right? Um, a lot of the things that we don't say share are our that we don't say share are our that we don't say share are our feelings. And um, the thing is like this feelings. And um, the thing is like this feelings. And um, the thing is like this day, this is this is a pretty benile day, this is this is a pretty benile day, this is this is a pretty benile day. It's not an unusual day. And yet day. It's not an unusual day. And yet day. It's not an unusual day. And yet there's so many more things that go there's so many more things that go there's so many more things that go unsaid that could be said. I'm not unsaid that could be said. I'm not unsaid that could be said. I'm not saying that all of these should go in saying that all of these should go in saying that all of these should go in there. Not by any means. Um there's good there. Not by any means. Um there's good there. Not by any means. Um there's good reasons why we don't share. We we we um reasons why we don't share. We we we um reasons why we don't share. We we we um we are busy. We're being polite. We may we are busy. We're being polite. We may we are busy. We're being polite. We may be being strategic. There's lots of be being strategic. There's lots of be being strategic. There's lots of reason good reasons to not share. But reason good reasons to not share. But reason good reasons to not share. But the problem is when we go through life, the problem is when we go through life, the problem is when we go through life, we default to we don't even think about we default to we don't even think about we default to we don't even think about sharing, right? Those I feel old like sharing, right? Those I feel old like sharing, right? Those I feel old like >> you you don't think of sharing that to >> you you don't think of sharing that to >> you you don't think of sharing that to your spouse. And imagine if you did. your spouse. And imagine if you did. your spouse. And imagine if you did. They may say I do too, but you know, but They may say I do too, but you know, but They may say I do too, but you know, but our children and like look at our our children and like look at our our children and like look at our children. Part of being old is enjoying children. Part of being old is enjoying children. Part of being old is enjoying our children. And you know, you could our children. And you know, you could our children. And you know, you could you can talk to then you can you feel you can talk to then you can you feel you can talk to then you can you feel less alone. Um if you tell your boss less alone. Um if you tell your boss less alone. Um if you tell your boss that after your boss compliments you that after your boss compliments you that after your boss compliments you after a big a big presentation that you after a big a big presentation that you after a big a big presentation that you were anxious about, you say, "Great, were anxious about, you say, "Great, were anxious about, you say, "Great, thanks for the compliment." What you thanks for the compliment." What you thanks for the compliment." What you don't say is, you know, I was actually don't say is, you know, I was actually don't say is, you know, I was actually feeling pretty anxious before and I'm feeling pretty anxious before and I'm feeling pretty anxious before and I'm really proud of how I did that and that really proud of how I did that and that really proud of how I did that and that was so enjoyable. I'd love more was so enjoyable. I'd love more was so enjoyable. I'd love more opportunities. And then they understand opportunities. And then they understand opportunities. And then they understand then it's like career success, right? then it's like career success, right? then it's like career success, right? Like you can see how exuberant I am Like you can see how exuberant I am Like you can see how exuberant I am about this concept. Like of course there about this concept. Like of course there about this concept. Like of course there are times like the assistant, you're not are times like the assistant, you're not are times like the assistant, you're not going to dump to your assistant that going to dump to your assistant that going to dump to your assistant that you're overwhelmed. You don't know what you're overwhelmed. You don't know what you're overwhelmed. You don't know what to prioritize. Of course not. to prioritize. Of course not. to prioritize. Of course not. >> But um it's a real problem I think that >> But um it's a real problem I think that >> But um it's a real problem I think that we don't even consider the possibility we don't even consider the possibility we don't even consider the possibility of sharing more. of sharing more. of sharing more. >> But isn't there a flip side to this >> But isn't there a flip side to this >> But isn't there a flip side to this where people have tried to overshare and where people have tried to overshare and where people have tried to overshare and maybe it hurt them by they they really maybe it hurt them by they they really maybe it hurt them by they they really were vulnerable? I know as a man growing were vulnerable? I know as a man growing were vulnerable? I know as a man growing up I remember one time in a relationship up I remember one time in a relationship up I remember one time in a relationship I I I >> I shared how I was feeling and my >> I shared how I was feeling and my >> I shared how I was feeling and my girlfriend said you look weak to me and girlfriend said you look weak to me and girlfriend said you look weak to me and she said I know she said I know she said I know >> I know I'm not a problem. >> I know I'm not a problem. >> I know I'm not a problem. >> She's like I know I'm not supposed to >> She's like I know I'm not supposed to >> She's like I know I'm not supposed to think this. think this. think this. >> Oh good for her. Well, it's great she >> Oh good for her. Well, it's great she >> Oh good for her. Well, it's great she shared that then. I take it back the shared that then. I take it back the shared that then. I take it back the cattiness. cattiness. cattiness. >> But it's like but she was like she >> But it's like but she was like she >> But it's like but she was like she couldn't receive the emotions that I couldn't receive the emotions that I couldn't receive the emotions that I had. had. had. >> It's not like I was like wallowing on >> It's not like I was like wallowing on >> It's not like I was like wallowing on the ground emotionally. I was like being the ground emotionally. I was like being the ground emotionally. I was like being emotional. I was having a moment. emotional. I was having a moment. emotional. I was having a moment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I was showing some emotion and she's >> And I was showing some emotion and she's >> And I was showing some emotion and she's just like, I know I'm supposed to just like, I know I'm supposed to just like, I know I'm supposed to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> like be okay with this, but I'm not. >> like be okay with this, but I'm not. >> like be okay with this, but I'm not. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think a lot of men have >> And I think a lot of men have >> And I think a lot of men have experienced that where they have tried experienced that where they have tried experienced that where they have tried to be vulnerable. to be vulnerable. to be vulnerable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They've tried to maybe they even cried >> They've tried to maybe they even cried >> They've tried to maybe they even cried in front of their girlfriend at one in front of their girlfriend at one in front of their girlfriend at one point. Whatever reason, they felt a point. Whatever reason, they felt a point. Whatever reason, they felt a little shift. They felt a change. They little shift. They felt a change. They little shift. They felt a change. They felt an energetic felt an energetic felt an energetic >> a communicational change. was like, >> a communicational change. was like, >> a communicational change. was like, "Huh, do I really feel safe around this "Huh, do I really feel safe around this "Huh, do I really feel safe around this person, this man, if he's weak?" person, this man, if he's weak?" person, this man, if he's weak?" >> Even if it's just for a moment, can I >> Even if it's just for a moment, can I >> Even if it's just for a moment, can I trust him? trust him? trust him? >> So, when is oversharing >> So, when is oversharing >> So, when is oversharing >> actually hurt you? >> actually hurt you? >> actually hurt you? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When does it hurt you with your boss >> When does it hurt you with your boss >> When does it hurt you with your boss where you just say, "This is actually where you just say, "This is actually where you just say, "This is actually how I'm feeling. I'm really insecure and how I'm feeling. I'm really insecure and how I'm feeling. I'm really insecure and scared and nervous and scared and nervous and scared and nervous and >> and then it's like, >> and then it's like, >> and then it's like, >> well, can I trust you?" >> well, can I trust you?" >> well, can I trust you?" >> Right. For sure. And and >> Right. For sure. And and >> Right. For sure. And and >> do I respect you? >> do I respect you? >> do I respect you? >> In that example, there's a key >> In that example, there's a key >> In that example, there's a key distinction. it. The example I was distinction. it. The example I was distinction. it. The example I was giving was after the talk, right? You do giving was after the talk, right? You do giving was after the talk, right? You do not want to say this to your boss, not want to say this to your boss, not want to say this to your boss, someone who has higher status than you someone who has higher status than you someone who has higher status than you before the talk. You do not want to say before the talk. You do not want to say before the talk. You do not want to say >> they're like, "All right, you're not >> they're like, "All right, you're not >> they're like, "All right, you're not giving the talk. giving the talk. giving the talk. >> You're not going to say, "I got you to >> You're not going to say, "I got you to >> You're not going to say, "I got you to do this, right?" do this, right?" do this, right?" >> And in fact, sometimes um if the boss >> And in fact, sometimes um if the boss >> And in fact, sometimes um if the boss came in before the talk and was like, came in before the talk and was like, came in before the talk and was like, "How you feeling?" You'd say like, "How you feeling?" You'd say like, "How you feeling?" You'd say like, "Great. I'm pumped. I'm excited." "Great. I'm pumped. I'm excited." "Great. I'm pumped. I'm excited." Sometimes if Sometimes if Sometimes if >> it's almost like you're lying. >> it's almost like you're lying. >> it's almost like you're lying. >> Well, so it's what you choose to share >> Well, so it's what you choose to share >> Well, so it's what you choose to share because anxiety and excitement are because anxiety and excitement are because anxiety and excitement are together. It's selective, right? And and together. It's selective, right? And and together. It's selective, right? And and we're allowed to be selective. We should we're allowed to be selective. We should we're allowed to be selective. We should be selective. We're not we shouldn't say be selective. We're not we shouldn't say be selective. We're not we shouldn't say everything on our mind. And in fact, if everything on our mind. And in fact, if everything on our mind. And in fact, if you say you're anxious, then you can it you say you're anxious, then you can it you say you're anxious, then you can it can cause you to be more anxious, right? can cause you to be more anxious, right? can cause you to be more anxious, right? Like saying is believing in Right. Like saying is believing in Right. Like saying is believing in Right. >> So So what I'm hearing you say then >> So So what I'm hearing you say then >> So So what I'm hearing you say then revealing revealing revealing uh and the underrated power of uh and the underrated power of uh and the underrated power of oversharing is all based on context. oversharing is all based on context. oversharing is all based on context. >> Oh, context is so important. Yeah. And >> Oh, context is so important. Yeah. And >> Oh, context is so important. Yeah. And in fact, the people that I think are the in fact, the people that I think are the in fact, the people that I think are the best at doing this at knowing the line best at doing this at knowing the line best at doing this at knowing the line between TMI and TLI, which is constantly between TMI and TLI, which is constantly between TMI and TLI, which is constantly moving, are people who have what I call moving, are people who have what I call moving, are people who have what I call a lot of disclosure flexibility. Those a lot of disclosure flexibility. Those a lot of disclosure flexibility. Those are the people who go way open, super are the people who go way open, super are the people who go way open, super vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable and vacasillate between that and and vacasillate between that and and vacasillate between that and complete guardedness because different complete guardedness because different complete guardedness because different situations call for entirely different situations call for entirely different situations call for entirely different things. I would also say in your example things. I would also say in your example things. I would also say in your example um I mean there was so many thought um I mean there was so many thought um I mean there was so many thought bubbles as you were talking about that bubbles as you were talking about that bubbles as you were talking about that it was a really rich one but sometimes it was a really rich one but sometimes it was a really rich one but sometimes the answer to oversharing or feeling the answer to oversharing or feeling the answer to oversharing or feeling like you overshared is actually to ask like you overshared is actually to ask like you overshared is actually to ask questions and share more right to say oh questions and share more right to say oh questions and share more right to say oh that makes me feel really hurt that that makes me feel really hurt that that makes me feel really hurt that you've reacted that way because to me you've reacted that way because to me you've reacted that way because to me masculinity is being confident with all masculinity is being confident with all masculinity is being confident with all of the emotions I will always protect of the emotions I will always protect of the emotions I will always protect you um Right? Like or saying like, "Tell you um Right? Like or saying like, "Tell you um Right? Like or saying like, "Tell me more. What is your what makes you me more. What is your what makes you me more. What is your what makes you feel insecure?" Like, right? So, it it feel insecure?" Like, right? So, it it feel insecure?" Like, right? So, it it pro should prompt more understanding. pro should prompt more understanding. pro should prompt more understanding. And maybe the answers won't be good. And maybe the answers won't be good. And maybe the answers won't be good. Maybe you and then that's informative, Maybe you and then that's informative, Maybe you and then that's informative, too, because you've learned that you're too, because you've learned that you're too, because you've learned that you're not on the same page and this person is not on the same page and this person is not on the same page and this person is >> the right fit for me, but it was just >> the right fit for me, but it was just >> the right fit for me, but it was just like I know a lot of men. I wrote a book like I know a lot of men. I wrote a book like I know a lot of men. I wrote a book about, you know, called The Mask of about, you know, called The Mask of about, you know, called The Mask of Masculinity Masculinity Masculinity >> eight years ago, I guess it was now. And >> eight years ago, I guess it was now. And >> eight years ago, I guess it was now. And it was about unpacking my own kind of it was about unpacking my own kind of it was about unpacking my own kind of >> amazing >> amazing >> amazing >> uh inability to be vulnerable >> uh inability to be vulnerable >> uh inability to be vulnerable >> because I felt like I had to fit in in >> because I felt like I had to fit in in >> because I felt like I had to fit in in society around men friend group with men society around men friend group with men society around men friend group with men around intimacy and relationship with around intimacy and relationship with around intimacy and relationship with women around how I was supposed to women around how I was supposed to women around how I was supposed to >> be as the youngest son whatever it might >> be as the youngest son whatever it might >> be as the youngest son whatever it might be. be. be. >> So it was like the mask that I wore to >> So it was like the mask that I wore to >> So it was like the mask that I wore to protect myself emotionally protect myself emotionally protect myself emotionally psychologically in the world and the psychologically in the world and the psychologically in the world and the mask that men have worn mask that men have worn mask that men have worn >> to try to fit in and belong. Now, women >> to try to fit in and belong. Now, women >> to try to fit in and belong. Now, women have had to wear masks as well, but have had to wear masks as well, but have had to wear masks as well, but speaking of a different nature, speaking of a different nature, speaking of a different nature, different and and one of the studies different and and one of the studies different and and one of the studies that really struck me as I was writing that really struck me as I was writing that really struck me as I was writing the book as a boy mom, the book as a boy mom, the book as a boy mom, >> is a study where with preschoolers, they >> is a study where with preschoolers, they >> is a study where with preschoolers, they um measured their galvanic skin um measured their galvanic skin um measured their galvanic skin response. So, that's how sweaty your response. So, that's how sweaty your response. So, that's how sweaty your palms are, which is a measure of how palms are, which is a measure of how palms are, which is a measure of how anxious you feel. And they also anxious you feel. And they also anxious you feel. And they also videotaped their faces, how much they videotaped their faces, how much they videotaped their faces, how much they expressed, how much they revealed about expressed, how much they revealed about expressed, how much they revealed about what they were feeling as the children what they were feeling as the children what they were feeling as the children were watching like scary movies. And um were watching like scary movies. And um were watching like scary movies. And um what they found was that the people who what they found was that the people who what they found was that the people who the children who expressed more were the children who expressed more were the children who expressed more were physiologically calmer. So they they physiologically calmer. So they they physiologically calmer. So they they weren't their palms weren't as sweaty. weren't their palms weren't as sweaty. weren't their palms weren't as sweaty. So expression literally was was calming So expression literally was was calming So expression literally was was calming for them. Bottling up on the other side, for them. Bottling up on the other side, for them. Bottling up on the other side, which you had touched on earlier. Um which you had touched on earlier. Um which you had touched on earlier. Um it's it's extremely bad for our for our it's it's extremely bad for our for our it's it's extremely bad for our for our well-being in many different ways. It's well-being in many different ways. It's well-being in many different ways. It's really stressful. And then the the really stressful. And then the the really stressful. And then the the kicker for me was that kicker for me was that kicker for me was that by the age of um like second grade, the by the age of um like second grade, the by the age of um like second grade, the boys boys boys had became less expressive over time had became less expressive over time had became less expressive over time because they've they they learned that because they've they they learned that because they've they they learned that keeping it in being stoic that's that's keeping it in being stoic that's that's keeping it in being stoic that's that's the masculine, right? It's it's so um the masculine, right? It's it's so um the masculine, right? It's it's so um I'm curious what for you this mask that I'm curious what for you this mask that I'm curious what for you this mask that you felt you had did you have certain you felt you had did you have certain you felt you had did you have certain turning po points of like that really turning po points of like that really turning po points of like that really really were step functions in the mask really were step functions in the mask really were step functions in the mask going away going away going away >> and taking them off? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> and taking them off? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> and taking them off? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right around a right around 13 years right around a right around 13 years right around a right around 13 years ago, 29 to 30 years old, I I h ago, 29 to 30 years old, I I h ago, 29 to 30 years old, I I h accomplished what I thought I was accomplished what I thought I was accomplished what I thought I was supposed to accomplish, you know, in my supposed to accomplish, you know, in my supposed to accomplish, you know, in my 20s by building a business and making 20s by building a business and making 20s by building a business and making millions of dollars and, you know, millions of dollars and, you know, millions of dollars and, you know, having attractive girlfriends and having having attractive girlfriends and having having attractive girlfriends and having status and having followers and all status and having followers and all status and having followers and all these things. these things. these things. >> But I felt more empty, more alone, >> But I felt more empty, more alone, >> But I felt more empty, more alone, more unsure and insecure of myself. more unsure and insecure of myself. more unsure and insecure of myself. >> But others thought I was like figuring >> But others thought I was like figuring >> But others thought I was like figuring it out. it out. it out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I had these kind of like three >> And I had these kind of like three >> And I had these kind of like three different breakdowns in relationships different breakdowns in relationships different breakdowns in relationships um that you know a business partnership, um that you know a business partnership, um that you know a business partnership, a girlfriend that was kind of like off a girlfriend that was kind of like off a girlfriend that was kind of like off and on and emotional and break up and and on and emotional and break up and and on and emotional and break up and get back together and then a friendship get back together and then a friendship get back together and then a friendship that was like all happening with the that was like all happening with the that was like all happening with the same season like few months like all same season like few months like all same season like few months like all these relationships were broke breaking these relationships were broke breaking these relationships were broke breaking down down down >> and I was originally like >> and I was originally like >> and I was originally like what is wrong with each one of these what is wrong with each one of these what is wrong with each one of these people? But I was the common people? But I was the common people? But I was the common denominator. So, I had a moment to denominator. So, I had a moment to denominator. So, I had a moment to reflect and I was just like, "Oh man, reflect and I was just like, "Oh man, reflect and I was just like, "Oh man, there's something wrong with me because there's something wrong with me because there's something wrong with me because I'm at the root. I'm at the root. I'm at the root. >> I'm the common denominator of all these >> I'm the common denominator of all these >> I'm the common denominator of all these broken relationships. I can't point the broken relationships. I can't point the broken relationships. I can't point the finger at everyone. finger at everyone. finger at everyone. >> Something is happening where I don't >> Something is happening where I don't >> Something is happening where I don't have the emotional skills or I don't have the emotional skills or I don't have the emotional skills or I don't have the tools or I'm not creating have the tools or I'm not creating have the tools or I'm not creating boundaries or I'm boundaries or I'm boundaries or I'm >> out of alignment with something. Mhm. >> out of alignment with something. Mhm. >> out of alignment with something. Mhm. >> And that became, you know, a journey of >> And that became, you know, a journey of >> And that became, you know, a journey of going through as much emotional going through as much emotional going through as much emotional intelligence training, workshops, intelligence training, workshops, intelligence training, workshops, therapies, coaching for the last 13 therapies, coaching for the last 13 therapies, coaching for the last 13 years as possible. And that's when I years as possible. And that's when I years as possible. And that's when I launched the show. launched the show. launched the show. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I launched the show 13 years ago because >> I launched the show 13 years ago because >> I launched the show 13 years ago because I was like, I was like, I was like, >> okay, I've accomplished success, but I >> okay, I've accomplished success, but I >> okay, I've accomplished success, but I don't have greatness in my life. Like, don't have greatness in my life. Like, don't have greatness in my life. Like, I've accomplished things, but I don't I've accomplished things, but I don't I've accomplished things, but I don't feel great. I don't feel good. feel great. I don't feel good. feel great. I don't feel good. >> So, what's wrong with me? >> So, what's wrong with me? >> So, what's wrong with me? >> Yeah. Let me go ask the experts. Let me >> Yeah. Let me go ask the experts. Let me >> Yeah. Let me go ask the experts. Let me humble myself. humble myself. humble myself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And stop being a cocky 20some year old >> And stop being a cocky 20some year old >> And stop being a cocky 20some year old thinking I've got it figured out. thinking I've got it figured out. thinking I've got it figured out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And let me humble myself and bring in >> And let me humble myself and bring in >> And let me humble myself and bring in the true the true the true >> leaders of the world, people with >> leaders of the world, people with >> leaders of the world, people with wisdom, experience, research like wisdom, experience, research like wisdom, experience, research like yourself yourself yourself >> and say, "Teach me." >> and say, "Teach me." >> and say, "Teach me." >> Awesome. >> Awesome. >> Awesome. >> And through learning, let me share with >> And through learning, let me share with >> And through learning, let me share with others and try to help others who are others and try to help others who are others and try to help others who are going through a simpler struggle around going through a simpler struggle around going through a simpler struggle around >> personal challenges, finance, health, >> personal challenges, finance, health, >> personal challenges, finance, health, relations, whatever it might be. So, relations, whatever it might be. So, relations, whatever it might be. So, >> the last 13 years has been a uh a >> the last 13 years has been a uh a >> the last 13 years has been a uh a dynamic of me being the the, you know, dynamic of me being the the, you know, dynamic of me being the the, you know, the guinea pig of the guinea pig of the guinea pig of >> struggle and saying, "All right, I'm >> struggle and saying, "All right, I'm >> struggle and saying, "All right, I'm going to try to be the best version of going to try to be the best version of going to try to be the best version of myself that I can be. I'm going to try myself that I can be. I'm going to try myself that I can be. I'm going to try to draw my wisest version of my future to draw my wisest version of my future to draw my wisest version of my future self to me now." self to me now." self to me now." >> And being like a lifelong learner, I >> And being like a lifelong learner, I >> And being like a lifelong learner, I think, is a really healthy mindset, think, is a really healthy mindset, think, is a really healthy mindset, right? right? right? >> Constantly. And even at 40, I'll be 43 >> Constantly. And even at 40, I'll be 43 >> Constantly. And even at 40, I'll be 43 in a couple months. in a couple months. in a couple months. And even though I feel like man I have a And even though I feel like man I have a And even though I feel like man I have a ton of wisdom from the last 13 years or ton of wisdom from the last 13 years or ton of wisdom from the last 13 years or my whole life so far but it's like man I my whole life so far but it's like man I my whole life so far but it's like man I have so much more have so much more have so much more the deeper that I can go to where I can the deeper that I can go to where I can the deeper that I can go to where I can impact people in a greater capacity impact people in a greater capacity impact people in a greater capacity >> individually group settings >> individually group settings >> individually group settings >> mass audience settings that there's so >> mass audience settings that there's so >> mass audience settings that there's so much more that I can uncover within much more that I can uncover within much more that I can uncover within myself myself myself >> and yet I can keep it extremely simple >> and yet I can keep it extremely simple >> and yet I can keep it extremely simple at the same time. I don't have to like at the same time. I don't have to like at the same time. I don't have to like >> keep going deeper and deeper always. >> keep going deeper and deeper always. >> keep going deeper and deeper always. It's like I can integrate the wisdom and It's like I can integrate the wisdom and It's like I can integrate the wisdom and then just impact then just impact then just impact >> and serve >> and serve >> and serve >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> serve my dreams and my highest calling >> serve my dreams and my highest calling >> serve my dreams and my highest calling and serve the people around me the best and serve the people around me the best and serve the people around me the best of my ability. of my ability. of my ability. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and it doesn't mean I'm always going >> And and it doesn't mean I'm always going >> And and it doesn't mean I'm always going to be perfect and I'll fall from grace to be perfect and I'll fall from grace to be perfect and I'll fall from grace and I'll, you know, fall back into old and I'll, you know, fall back into old and I'll, you know, fall back into old childhood patterns at times. childhood patterns at times. childhood patterns at times. >> Yeah. But you'll recognize >> Yeah. But you'll recognize >> Yeah. But you'll recognize >> noticing it, catching it, and and >> noticing it, catching it, and and >> noticing it, catching it, and and replacing it with a wiser version of replacing it with a wiser version of replacing it with a wiser version of myself. And I think that's what doing myself. And I think that's what doing myself. And I think that's what doing this show and and reading books and this show and and reading books and this show and and reading books and doing interviews continually reminds me doing interviews continually reminds me doing interviews continually reminds me of the things I already know. Usually I of the things I already know. Usually I of the things I already know. Usually I don't learn all these like new things don't learn all these like new things don't learn all these like new things that I've never heard of. It's more of that I've never heard of. It's more of that I've never heard of. It's more of like, oh, this research is backing what like, oh, this research is backing what like, oh, this research is backing what I know. So, let me go farther into this, I know. So, let me go farther into this, I know. So, let me go farther into this, you know? So, you know? So, you know? So, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> that's a lot of what it is. But I think >> that's a lot of what it is. But I think >> that's a lot of what it is. But I think the idea of the idea of the idea of >> there's a couple things that I'm hearing >> there's a couple things that I'm hearing >> there's a couple things that I'm hearing from you so far that could benefit from you so far that could benefit from you so far that could benefit people. One, if you're expecting someone people. One, if you're expecting someone people. One, if you're expecting someone to know what you're thinking or feeling to know what you're thinking or feeling to know what you're thinking or feeling just because you're feeling it, you're just because you're feeling it, you're just because you're feeling it, you're going to have a bad or challenging going to have a bad or challenging going to have a bad or challenging relationship and you're going to be relationship and you're going to be relationship and you're going to be frustrated in that relationship. If frustrated in that relationship. If frustrated in that relationship. If you're expecting someone to read your you're expecting someone to read your you're expecting someone to read your mind, mind, mind, >> even if you show them a little of like >> even if you show them a little of like >> even if you show them a little of like disgust in the moment of like, I've got disgust in the moment of like, I've got disgust in the moment of like, I've got some frustration in my life, they should some frustration in my life, they should some frustration in my life, they should just know. just know. just know. >> That is like, and one of the things that >> That is like, and one of the things that >> That is like, and one of the things that my wife Martha has done really well, she my wife Martha has done really well, she my wife Martha has done really well, she knows that I can't be a mind reader. And knows that I can't be a mind reader. And knows that I can't be a mind reader. And I'm like, if something is on going on, I'm like, if something is on going on, I'm like, if something is on going on, tell me right away. Don't wait till tell me right away. Don't wait till tell me right away. Don't wait till later in the day. Don't wait till later in the day. Don't wait till later in the day. Don't wait till midnight when we're in the middle of the midnight when we're in the middle of the midnight when we're in the middle of the bed about to sleep. Like, tell me bed about to sleep. Like, tell me bed about to sleep. Like, tell me earlier. earlier. earlier. >> Yeah. Being a good elicitor is >> Yeah. Being a good elicitor is >> Yeah. Being a good elicitor is important, too. important, too. important, too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let me serve you better. >> Let me serve you better. >> Let me serve you better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Just communicate a >> You know what I mean? Just communicate a >> You know what I mean? Just communicate a little bit and I can serve you higher. little bit and I can serve you higher. little bit and I can serve you higher. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But if we're waiting till 1:00 a.m. to >> But if we're waiting till 1:00 a.m. to >> But if we're waiting till 1:00 a.m. to like let some dump something on me, like let some dump something on me, like let some dump something on me, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> when I am not have the brain function, >> when I am not have the brain function, >> when I am not have the brain function, it's going to be exhausting for both of it's going to be exhausting for both of it's going to be exhausting for both of us. us. us. >> Yeah. So trying to be a mind readader is >> Yeah. So trying to be a mind readader is >> Yeah. So trying to be a mind readader is an impossible job. So communicate more. an impossible job. So communicate more. an impossible job. So communicate more. Even just communicate a little bit will Even just communicate a little bit will Even just communicate a little bit will go a long way. go a long way. go a long way. >> Um and this power of oversharing with >> Um and this power of oversharing with >> Um and this power of oversharing with context. Yes. Knowing context. Yes. Knowing context. Yes. Knowing >> context is huge. >> context is huge. >> context is huge. >> Who you're speaking to, >> Who you're speaking to, >> Who you're speaking to, >> when the timing is, >> when the timing is, >> when the timing is, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Um is what I'm hearing is also >> Um is what I'm hearing is also >> Um is what I'm hearing is also important. important. important. >> And I think um there's also things that >> And I think um there's also things that >> And I think um there's also things that we tend to undersshare. And I would say we tend to undersshare. And I would say we tend to undersshare. And I would say the number one thing we tend to the number one thing we tend to the number one thing we tend to undersshare are feelings. undersshare are feelings. undersshare are feelings. >> And >> And >> And for lots of reasons, but if I to try to for lots of reasons, but if I to try to for lots of reasons, but if I to try to like people who are skeptical the like people who are skeptical the like people who are skeptical the feelings feelings feelings like I'm a feelings feelings feelings like I'm a feelings feelings feelings like I'm a skept I was born skeptical. Um so skept I was born skeptical. Um so skept I was born skeptical. Um so there's been studies of that have looked there's been studies of that have looked there's been studies of that have looked at what people regret in life and one of at what people regret in life and one of at what people regret in life and one of the studies uh was led by a colleague of the studies uh was led by a colleague of the studies uh was led by a colleague of mine at Cornell Tom Gilovich who's as mine at Cornell Tom Gilovich who's as mine at Cornell Tom Gilovich who's as brilliant as he is warm and he brilliant as he is warm and he brilliant as he is warm and he discovered he looked at what are the discovered he looked at what are the discovered he looked at what are the things that people regret in life. Do things that people regret in life. Do things that people regret in life. Do they regret the things they do or do they regret the things they do or do they regret the things they do or do they regret the things they did not do? they regret the things they did not do? they regret the things they did not do? M M M >> and it turns out that it's something >> and it turns out that it's something >> and it turns out that it's something like 76% of regrets on average are like 76% of regrets on average are like 76% of regrets on average are things you didn't do things you didn't do things you didn't do >> really >> really >> really >> and so unsaid under sharing things you >> and so unsaid under sharing things you >> and so unsaid under sharing things you didn't do and then okay so clincher on didn't do and then okay so clincher on didn't do and then okay so clincher on top of that then there's um I top of that then there's um I top of that then there's um I encountered this um a book by a pali of encountered this um a book by a pali of encountered this um a book by a pali of care nurse by the name of Bronnie wear care nurse by the name of Bronnie wear care nurse by the name of Bronnie wear she wrote a book I've had her on the she wrote a book I've had her on the she wrote a book I've had her on the show show show >> oh my gosh amazing five regrets >> oh my gosh amazing five regrets >> oh my gosh amazing five regrets >> yes okay so four out of five of them are >> yes okay so four out of five of them are >> yes okay so four out of five of them are things you didn't do things you didn't do things you didn't do >> number three I wish I had shared my >> number three I wish I had shared my >> number three I wish I had shared my feelings ings more. feelings ings more. feelings ings more. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Right. Like if that doesn't convince you >> Right. Like if that doesn't convince you >> Right. Like if that doesn't convince you and you can think about it like so I was and you can think about it like so I was and you can think about it like so I was just talking to the um my dear hair just talking to the um my dear hair just talking to the um my dear hair stylist and she she we were talking stylist and she she we were talking stylist and she she we were talking about this and she said you know we had about this and she said you know we had about this and she said you know we had a PTA meeting which is like good pretty a PTA meeting which is like good pretty a PTA meeting which is like good pretty functional um and I decided because I'd functional um and I decided because I'd functional um and I decided because I'd read your book I decided I was going to read your book I decided I was going to read your book I decided I was going to sh it wasn't going very well this sh it wasn't going very well this sh it wasn't going very well this meeting and so I decided to share my meeting and so I decided to share my meeting and so I decided to share my feelings. I decided to say I feel feelings. I decided to say I feel feelings. I decided to say I feel frustrated and she said it was a frustrated and she said it was a frustrated and she said it was a complete gamecher and one of the re and complete gamecher and one of the re and complete gamecher and one of the re and suddenly people were like I feel suddenly people were like I feel suddenly people were like I feel frustrated too and how do we so they frustrated too and how do we so they frustrated too and how do we so they they it was relatable everyone was they it was relatable everyone was they it was relatable everyone was feeling the same thing or invariance of feeling the same thing or invariance of feeling the same thing or invariance of it so it it it makes it so much more it so it it it makes it so much more it so it it it makes it so much more compelling then um another example compelling then um another example compelling then um another example which I didn't do this strategically but which I didn't do this strategically but which I didn't do this strategically but showing feelings showing feelings is so showing feelings showing feelings is so showing feelings showing feelings is so much more compelling you you become more much more compelling you you become more much more compelling you you become more persuasive when you do something with persuasive when you do something with persuasive when you do something with feeling when you show the feeling. And feeling when you show the feeling. And feeling when you show the feeling. And one example, this was fairly early on one example, this was fairly early on one example, this was fairly early on when I was dating my husband, my second when I was dating my husband, my second when I was dating my husband, my second my now husband. Um, and we were at this my now husband. Um, and we were at this my now husband. Um, and we were at this beautiful beautiful beautiful um resort in the Caribbean. And there um resort in the Caribbean. And there um resort in the Caribbean. And there was I'm a terrible sleeper. I hate that, was I'm a terrible sleeper. I hate that, was I'm a terrible sleeper. I hate that, but I'm just a really really bad but I'm just a really really bad but I'm just a really really bad sleeper. And it was, you know, the first sleeper. And it was, you know, the first sleeper. And it was, you know, the first night in paradise and it was like I night in paradise and it was like I night in paradise and it was like I didn't sleep at all. There was like a didn't sleep at all. There was like a didn't sleep at all. There was like a party above us. It was hell. party above us. It was hell. party above us. It was hell. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, It was not good. Um, and and so then the It was not good. Um, and and so then the It was not good. Um, and and so then the next morning, next morning, next morning, >> so he he's a little non-confrontational. >> so he he's a little non-confrontational. >> so he he's a little non-confrontational. I'm I can be confrontational when I care I'm I can be confrontational when I care I'm I can be confrontational when I care a lot. And so I'm like, this is this is a lot. And so I'm like, this is this is a lot. And so I'm like, this is this is not right. I for the money we paid. So I not right. I for the money we paid. So I not right. I for the money we paid. So I go to the front desk and I start saying go to the front desk and I start saying go to the front desk and I start saying and then I couldn't contain my feelings. and then I couldn't contain my feelings. and then I couldn't contain my feelings. So I they were like, "No, no, nothing we So I they were like, "No, no, nothing we So I they were like, "No, no, nothing we can do." And then I started crying, not can do." And then I started crying, not can do." And then I started crying, not strategically because I really like I strategically because I really like I strategically because I really like I was trying to not cry. But then that was trying to not cry. But then that was trying to not cry. But then that they shifted entirely and they put us in they shifted entirely and they put us in they shifted entirely and they put us in the most beautiful ocean like on the the most beautiful ocean like on the the most beautiful ocean like on the water ocean cottage like I know it feels water ocean cottage like I know it feels water ocean cottage like I know it feels like I wasn't trying to be manipulative like I wasn't trying to be manipulative like I wasn't trying to be manipulative but the lesson to me was like I don't but the lesson to me was like I don't but the lesson to me was like I don't need to be so ashamed of crying like need to be so ashamed of crying like need to be so ashamed of crying like crying in the right time and place it crying in the right time and place it crying in the right time and place it can be a high-risisk maneuver but it can be a high-risisk maneuver but it can be a high-risisk maneuver but it also is really compelling information also is really compelling information also is really compelling information >> because you really care >> because you really care >> because you really care >> right >> right >> right >> it's not just you're like frustrated and >> it's not just you're like frustrated and >> it's not just you're like frustrated and upset it's like you really were sad upset it's like you really were sad upset it's like you really were sad >> it's a true signal right it's it's easy >> it's a true signal right it's it's easy >> it's a true signal right it's it's easy to just complain. But this is a costly to just complain. But this is a costly to just complain. But this is a costly signal. So signal. So signal. So >> they hear people complain all the time >> they hear people complain all the time >> they hear people complain all the time probably. Yeah. probably. Yeah. probably. Yeah. >> Right. And they're like, "Oh, no. She >> Right. And they're like, "Oh, no. She >> Right. And they're like, "Oh, no. She really means it." So, but yeah. So, really means it." So, but yeah. So, really means it." So, but yeah. So, sharing your feelings is something that sharing your feelings is something that sharing your feelings is something that we we we chronically undershare. we we we chronically undershare. we we we chronically undershare. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And there's a price to not sharing >> Yeah. And there's a price to not sharing >> Yeah. And there's a price to not sharing your true feelings. your true feelings. your true feelings. >> Exactly. There are missed opportunities. >> Exactly. There are missed opportunities. >> Exactly. There are missed opportunities. There's friendships that never blossom. There's friendships that never blossom. There's friendships that never blossom. There's romances that never spark. There's romances that never spark. There's romances that never spark. There's colleagues that never quite There's colleagues that never quite There's colleagues that never quite trust you. trust you. trust you. What's one question you could ask your What's one question you could ask your What's one question you could ask your intimate partner that would get them to intimate partner that would get them to intimate partner that would get them to share what they truly feel if they've share what they truly feel if they've share what they truly feel if they've been blocking or hiding those emotions been blocking or hiding those emotions been blocking or hiding those emotions for a long time? for a long time? for a long time? >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. Um, I think what I would do, I mean Um, I think what I would do, I mean Um, I think what I would do, I mean there's lots of things one could do, but there's lots of things one could do, but there's lots of things one could do, but there is a very powerful human tendency. there is a very powerful human tendency. there is a very powerful human tendency. I might even say instinct. I don't use I might even say instinct. I don't use I might even say instinct. I don't use that term lightly, but it you can that term lightly, but it you can that term lightly, but it you can actually very make a very quite actually very make a very quite actually very make a very quite compelling evolutionary case to this. compelling evolutionary case to this. compelling evolutionary case to this. there's an instinct to reciprocate. And there's an instinct to reciprocate. And there's an instinct to reciprocate. And so if you if your partner is more so if you if your partner is more so if you if your partner is more reserved like my husband, um he's a reserved like my husband, um he's a reserved like my husband, um he's a recovering undershare. recovering undershare. recovering undershare. Um but I'm an overshare. I've had my Um but I'm an overshare. I've had my Um but I'm an overshare. I've had my moments of like so we balance each other moments of like so we balance each other moments of like so we balance each other out. But um reciprocity. So if you if out. But um reciprocity. So if you if out. But um reciprocity. So if you if you really instead of like trying to get you really instead of like trying to get you really instead of like trying to get the right question. If you share the right question. If you share the right question. If you share something proactively you say I feel you something proactively you say I feel you something proactively you say I feel you know the day we got married I felt so know the day we got married I felt so know the day we got married I felt so happy but I also felt you know happy but I also felt you know happy but I also felt you know uncertainty about the future and what uncertainty about the future and what uncertainty about the future and what our family life and where we'd live. our family life and where we'd live. our family life and where we'd live. Like if you share something vulnerable Like if you share something vulnerable Like if you share something vulnerable then it's so natural especially when then it's so natural especially when then it's so natural especially when you're in a loving relationship you're in a loving relationship you're in a loving relationship reciprocation is like an in it feels reciprocation is like an in it feels reciprocation is like an in it feels weird not to do it. And so that's that's weird not to do it. And so that's that's weird not to do it. And so that's that's instead of trying to get the perfect instead of trying to get the perfect instead of trying to get the perfect question, that's something I might try. question, that's something I might try. question, that's something I might try. >> Lead with vulnerability, lead with >> Lead with vulnerability, lead with >> Lead with vulnerability, lead with sharing, lead with something. That's sharing, lead with something. That's sharing, lead with something. That's powerful. powerful. powerful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, I want people to check out your >> Well, I want people to check out your >> Well, I want people to check out your book. It's called Revealing the book. It's called Revealing the book. It's called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. And Underrated Power of Oversharing. And Underrated Power of Oversharing. And again, um I just really believe like again, um I just really believe like again, um I just really believe like relationships is the key to having a relationships is the key to having a relationships is the key to having a happy life. And happy life. And happy life. And >> powerful relationships come from the >> powerful relationships come from the >> powerful relationships come from the ability to communicate how you feel ability to communicate how you feel ability to communicate how you feel obviously in the right context. And it obviously in the right context. And it obviously in the right context. And it doesn't mean you cry all day long if doesn't mean you cry all day long if doesn't mean you cry all day long if you're sad, but it's learning how to you're sad, but it's learning how to you're sad, but it's learning how to communicate and connecting and learning communicate and connecting and learning communicate and connecting and learning how to receive someone's oversharing. how to receive someone's oversharing. how to receive someone's oversharing. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Is what where the fruit of life is >> Is what where the fruit of life is >> Is what where the fruit of life is because it's all about relationships. because it's all about relationships. because it's all about relationships. And if you struggle in relationships, And if you struggle in relationships, And if you struggle in relationships, you're going to struggle in your life. you're going to struggle in your life. you're going to struggle in your life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this is going to allow you to create >> And this is going to allow you to create >> And this is going to allow you to create more tools to having a powerful more tools to having a powerful more tools to having a powerful relationship. Uh so the book's called um relationship. Uh so the book's called um relationship. Uh so the book's called um revealing the underrated power of revealing the underrated power of revealing the underrated power of oversharing. oversharing. oversharing. And people can check your website out. And people can check your website out. And people can check your website out. proflesleyjh.com proflesleyjh.com proflesleyjh.com or the same on Instagram and LinkedIn or the same on Instagram and LinkedIn or the same on Instagram and LinkedIn and social media. Prof. Lesley John over and social media. Prof. Lesley John over and social media. Prof. Lesley John over there as well. I've got a couple final there as well. I've got a couple final there as well. I've got a couple final questions for you. Um, questions for you. Um, questions for you. Um, >> lightning round. >> lightning round. >> lightning round. >> Yeah, exactly. This is called the three >> Yeah, exactly. This is called the three >> Yeah, exactly. This is called the three truths. So, a hypothetical scenario. truths. So, a hypothetical scenario. truths. So, a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you Imagine you get to live as long as you Imagine you get to live as long as you want want want >> and you get to do all the work that you >> and you get to do all the work that you >> and you get to do all the work that you love and all the research you love and love and all the research you love and love and all the research you love and you get to have the experiences you you get to have the experiences you you get to have the experiences you imagine with your your family and your imagine with your your family and your imagine with your your family and your kids and all these different things. But kids and all these different things. But kids and all these different things. But for whatever reason on your last day, for whatever reason on your last day, for whatever reason on your last day, you have to take all of your work with you have to take all of your work with you have to take all of your work with you. And we don't have access to your you. And we don't have access to your you. And we don't have access to your books, your interviews, your content books, your interviews, your content books, your interviews, your content anymore. anymore. anymore. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But you get to leave behind one final >> But you get to leave behind one final >> But you get to leave behind one final message. message. message. >> And I call it the three truths. What >> And I call it the three truths. What >> And I call it the three truths. What would be those three things, those three would be those three things, those three would be those three things, those three messages, three truths you would leave messages, three truths you would leave messages, three truths you would leave behind from all the work and the behind from all the work and the behind from all the work and the research and the life lessons that you research and the life lessons that you research and the life lessons that you have? have? have? >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. I would say one one is that is that is that we we we live in fear of TMI live in fear of TMI live in fear of TMI which we should not because the bigger which we should not because the bigger which we should not because the bigger problem is TLI too little information. problem is TLI too little information. problem is TLI too little information. Um Um Um the second is that silence is a choice. the second is that silence is a choice. the second is that silence is a choice. And once you start thinking about And once you start thinking about And once you start thinking about silence as a choice, it will really open silence as a choice, it will really open silence as a choice, it will really open up your space because you will realize up your space because you will realize up your space because you will realize how much you can share because you'll how much you can share because you'll how much you can share because you'll realize how much you leave unsaid. M realize how much you leave unsaid. M realize how much you leave unsaid. M >> um and third I would say >> um and third I would say >> um and third I would say revealing wisely is a skill and it's a revealing wisely is a skill and it's a revealing wisely is a skill and it's a skill that we can all get better at and skill that we can all get better at and skill that we can all get better at and like any skill it requires practice and like any skill it requires practice and like any skill it requires practice and iteration. So I would encourage people iteration. So I would encourage people iteration. So I would encourage people to try to stretch themselves a little to try to stretch themselves a little to try to stretch themselves a little bit more and and and that's also on a bit more and and and that's also on a bit more and and and that's also on a meta level what I' what I'm doing in the meta level what I' what I'm doing in the meta level what I' what I'm doing in the book, right? Like how can you write a book, right? Like how can you write a book, right? Like how can you write a book about revealing and not reveal? book about revealing and not reveal? book about revealing and not reveal? >> Yeah. So, you know, hopefully I got it >> Yeah. So, you know, hopefully I got it >> Yeah. So, you know, hopefully I got it mostly right, but it's a it's you have mostly right, but it's a it's you have mostly right, but it's a it's you have to forgive yourself if you that's part to forgive yourself if you that's part to forgive yourself if you that's part of learning and experimentation. of learning and experimentation. of learning and experimentation. >> Yeah, it's an ongoing dance. Yeah, >> Yeah, it's an ongoing dance. Yeah, >> Yeah, it's an ongoing dance. Yeah, that's cool. that's cool. that's cool. >> Well, Leslie, I appreciate and >> Well, Leslie, I appreciate and >> Well, Leslie, I appreciate and acknowledge you for acknowledge you for acknowledge you for >> one revealing during this because I >> one revealing during this because I >> one revealing during this because I think academics can sometimes hold back think academics can sometimes hold back think academics can sometimes hold back >> and we get it's all research and science >> and we get it's all research and science >> and we get it's all research and science and it's not going into their own and it's not going into their own and it's not going into their own personal life as well. So, I personal life as well. So, I personal life as well. So, I >> really acknowledge you for kind of >> really acknowledge you for kind of >> really acknowledge you for kind of revealing that about your mom and kind revealing that about your mom and kind revealing that about your mom and kind of having this like underlying of having this like underlying of having this like underlying resentment for a decade plus, resentment for a decade plus, resentment for a decade plus, >> but then >> but then >> but then this work making you face it and it's this work making you face it and it's this work making you face it and it's created a stronger relationship with created a stronger relationship with created a stronger relationship with your mom, it sounds like. your mom, it sounds like. your mom, it sounds like. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> Um, and so I acknowledge you for doing >> Um, and so I acknowledge you for doing >> Um, and so I acknowledge you for doing the healing work for yourself while the healing work for yourself while the healing work for yourself while you're trying to create research and you're trying to create research and you're trying to create research and academic academic academic >> and raise two crazy boys. >> and raise two crazy boys. >> and raise two crazy boys. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> But that's it's hard to do if you're a >> But that's it's hard to do if you're a >> But that's it's hard to do if you're a recovering non-sharer, you know. recovering non-sharer, you know. recovering non-sharer, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. I also realized as I was >> Yeah. Yeah. I also realized as I was >> Yeah. Yeah. I also realized as I was writing it that I call myself an writing it that I call myself an writing it that I call myself an overshare, but then I thought it's more overshare, but then I thought it's more overshare, but then I thought it's more performative oversharing. Like I like performative oversharing. Like I like performative oversharing. Like I like telling self-deprecating funny stories telling self-deprecating funny stories telling self-deprecating funny stories about myself, but when it really comes about myself, but when it really comes about myself, but when it really comes to sharing deep feelings, do I? to sharing deep feelings, do I? to sharing deep feelings, do I? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we keep working on it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we keep working on it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we keep working on it. This is the starting point. This is the starting point. This is the starting point. >> I'm a lifelong education case. >> I'm a lifelong education case. >> I'm a lifelong education case. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Uh final question, Leslie. What's your >> Uh final question, Leslie. What's your >> Uh final question, Leslie. What's your definition of greatness? Ah um it's it's feeling so comfortable in your own skin feeling so comfortable in your own skin feeling so comfortable in your own skin and knowing yourself so much that you and knowing yourself so much that you and knowing yourself so much that you can get the things in life that you care can get the things in life that you care can get the things in life that you care about and that your your loved ones care about and that your your loved ones care about and that your your loved ones care about. about. about. >> There you go. That's it. Thanks for >> There you go. That's it. Thanks for >> There you go. That's it. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you. being here. Appreciate you. being here. Appreciate you. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Powerful. We have never expected more >> Powerful. We have never expected more >> Powerful. We have never expected more from romantic love than we do today. from romantic love than we do today. from romantic love than we do today. Seriously, we want literally one person Seriously, we want literally one person Seriously, we want literally one person to give us what usually an entire to give us what usually an entire to give us what usually an entire village used to provide. We've never village used to provide. We've never village used to provide. We've never been more free and we've never been more been more free and we've never been more been more free and we've never been more alone. alone. alone. >> She's been called the goddess of love >> She's been called the goddess of love >> She's been called the goddess of love and connection. with two books and her and connection. with two books and her and connection. with two books and her wildly popular podcast, Where Should We