Health Hacks Big Pharma Doesn’t Want You To Know - Biohacking Roundtable

Key Takeaway

Build your healthspan around the basics before chasing expensive biohacks: lift weights regularly, include short bursts of vigorous cardio, walk with purpose, and prioritize protein-rich whole foods. The panel’s most practical point is that muscle mass, cardiovascular capacity, and walking speed are useful, low-cost signals of resilience. Start today with a strength session, a few 10-20-second hard intervals, and a brisk walk—then make those habits repeatable.

Episode Overview

This biohacking roundtable ranges from peptides, GLP-1 drugs, testosterone, stem cells, and plasma filtration to more accessible foundations of healthspan. The guests repeatedly return to muscle preservation, individualized care, environmental exposures, and the importance of using testing thoughtfully rather than relying on one-size-fits-all protocols. Much of the discussion is exploratory and reflects the speakers’ clinical opinions and personal experimentation rather than settled medical consensus.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Health Hacks Big Pharma Doesn’t Want You To Know - Biohacking Roundtable from Modern Wisdom. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

People of the uk and ireland if you're coming to see me on tour i want to hear from you i want to know what problems you're dealing with your worst first date and any questions you got for me and i will be bringing some of you up on stage to talk about it so if you're coming to see me on tour this october go to chris williamson dot live slash stories submit them and. I might see you with a mic in front of your face very soon chris williamson dot live stories everyone tell me what peptides you're on that's all i care about.

Go which day of the week which time of the day. I i view peptides as a little bit more of like a condiment that's in your refrigerator that you might use for a specific reason and don't follow an exact protocol every day for example when i travel i use thymus and alpha one which i'm on right now as you can tell for any for the immune system. Yeah i keep around bpc 157 and tb 500 for injuries i run a couple of times a year a test of marillyn hyper marillyn with cjc 1295 cycle for growth hormone and.

Who's the biggest of c max and c link intranasal c max is a little bit more like a cognition brain drive neurotrophic factor booster and then c link is more of like a like an anxiolytic so coming up or down or my version of valium caffeine. What he said pretty much that protocol i agree with and i tell everyone the answer is not at the bottom of a peptide bottle like diet lifestyle nutrition living by the principles first these are like additives that can help optimize your health especially with our food sources and how stripped they are of the nutrients the only compounds that i think i take that you didn't discuss is igf lr3 i don't know if you've ever messed with that insulin growth factor lr3 so a lot of people take growth hormone.

Historically but the reason they were taking growth hormone was in an effort to get all the therapeutic benefits that growth hormone gives you when it converts to igf and so if you were to use the peptide igf you get all the benefits of growth hormone but with a much better safety profile that will not impact your natural growth hormone levels and so that's why i'm a huge fan of does it does it have like a similar like pure hgh you get a little bit of of almost like a glucocorticoid response where.

There's a surgeon cortisol you're resting glucose tends to be higher a lot of people don't sleep as well at night because it it goes on a downstream pathway do you skip out a lot of that yeah you do skip out a lot but bigger than that is you're not impacting your natural growth levels so you know you're still in your four i'm in my forty seven forty six so i want to be cognizant of that but anytime i come off like so i'll go on for four to six weeks and then i when i come off i'll cycle on to cjc and some of the other things you discussed just to boost my natural growth hormone levels.

So i have the simplest protocol here sounds like um i will microdose glp1 once in a while for inflammation i think there's going to be new emerging research i was actually at the protein working group summit 3.0 and that is like the oscars for nerds and protein scientists i just sounds like invitation only a hundred of the finest scientists that are doing protein research and there were topics of discussion like what are the challenges that we face. But more importantly i sat with arnie astrup who discovered glp1 impact on appetite so he was essentially responsible for what we now have is this obesity now not called obesity sarcopenic epidemic glp1 yes again i'm totally for glp1 but that is cool you said you're microdosing it for inflammation yes and there is going to be new emerging research that it is going to have an impact on cancer.

They believe that we don't totally know he believes it's through inflammation and this is the guy who discovered glp1's effect on appetite how do you know that it's not just a reduction in the turnover of food right we don't eat less cancer causing food yeah it could be but that remains well in the second leading cause of cancer well age is the leading cause second to that is obesity and then so if you were able to address. Aging and obesity and you're actually gonna reduce the risk of cancer so i think i mean there's definitely gonna be a correlation to the weight loss because he's one of the biggest risk factors for cancer inflammation independent of obesity as well just eating how many bros you know that are relatively lean but they're turning over tons of sugar they're just training it out of them are they still young the metabolism still kicking right that's one of the possible benefits of intermittent fasting is autophagy and giving giving that like react.

Of oxygen species production a break yes i have microdosed with glp's before on flight days like there's something about it just like why it's food noise you don't really have access to great food eat anyways i don't want to be distracted by food or think about it i'm sedentary anyways for most of the days so even if i could eat it's probably not the best scenario for me to be eating and so uh that when i say microdose like i don't know how much you mean but i'm talking like 0.25 and to contextualize that like a normal dose would be.

10 12 milligrams something like 100 units depending on it's crazy that you so it is good because what you're saying is what we've seen anecdotally like because we're at over 70,000 patients now in in the patient population as a whole at ways to well and a lot of the patients are now doing microdose glp ones and they say that they see a big difference in their inflammation and i think that that is what we're going to find more and i think the bigger point that we have to make is that they're here to stay whereas other medications there's never been anything nearly as.

Revolutionary and you know in the 90s when they had the food guide pyramid and then all of a sudden obesity hit yeah yeah yeah we are at the precipice of trading obesity for sarcopenia right now what's up yeah right we're we're we're going from people who are too big to people who are too frail decrease in muscle mass and strength and we've seen it right your parents all of a sudden get frail your grandparents get frail and if we're not careful we're going to miss the early warning signs which i think that we're seeing uh with people out in hollywood the word we're just seeing a transformation i read your book and you talked about where it's not necessarily that people read it we're under muscled right we're also under muscled it's not just that we're obese we are under muscle that's right and if we can maintain lean muscle mass and bone mineral density as we age it is one of the leading indicators on healthspan and longevity what are some biohacks or some interventions that you use or believe in but you don't have any data to support what are some of the things that you're like i fucking love this and i know that it works for me the doctor in the corner is shaking her head we'll get oh yeah let's go let's go bro science uh biocharger have you ever seen this oh my god i have one borrowed one i have one doctor no i don't i don't marketplace it no i okay so i saved a patient's life and she said pick any piece of equipment that you want and she keeps talking about this biocharger she's like my sex drive is up it's like the best thing ever i'm like okay well i already have a sauna i already have a cold plunge what about the biochargers yeah but so i got a but i have a biocharger how did you find it great my husband he's like i feel this i mean who knows but it does it does red but does it work radio frequencies based on a tesla coil surrounded by 12 noble gases in two and there's zero clinical but you can hold a cool fucking lightsaber i need a parasite recipe like a reason you think it works okay the raisin brand what is that works if for one constipation if if you're constipated been traveling whatever you sit in front of the raisin brand recipes last 12 minutes and you literally have like a turtle head i want to hear what experience was chris what i got research on i got i went i was like what i went i went to tony robbins house he said he's got one in every room in his house apparently i don't know why and uh we i got lent one for a month or so i noticed no difference for the people did you use it wait did you use it consistently rude semi-consistently didn't you didn't but you can't like you put your phone near it and your phone starts fucking glitching out like yeah how often did you use i don't know if i'm supposed to wait i have two other half i have two things okay and then i've got one more oh you've got you might know more about this this issue so i so there's something and you probably know way more about this than i do but i got um lent a wind back machine have you ever seen that it's like some tech car therapy do you know what that is i don't know what okay exciting i don't know and it's so you don't know what it is i don't know what it is either but what is it well it seems like it has some um it's like not quite ems but it has some um high radio frequency it is but it's not exactly and it's called tech car therapy what do you do it's patches so there's patches but i've been using it for my hamstring and it seems to have like a controller that's producing it does it has this yes and i was hoping that you would tell me what exactly how it works but it seems to do tissue healing i haven't seen good us data on it i think that i i feeling better has to work somehow and it's not a stim device yeah uh i do not know if if someone could google it and see exactly what frequency i'll send i'll send again what's it called no it's called a wind back wind back win yeah pull it up and see what they're what they're actually saying that it does i i might have seen something like it before um and it localizes where the pain is which is really weird yeah the roxiva lamp you seen this one no okay so it's a sound lounge that vibrates for like like a vibro acoustic bed that you lay on that sounds cool and then it's a lamp and the lamp has headphones so it's like an av cable one side is going into the vibro acoustic bed the other side is going to the headphones and then there's like a hundred different sessions ranging from five minutes to 60 minutes that are like blast off to the moon psychedelic like full-on mushroom lsd like trip depending on what you choose with zero biological payback as far as you actually needing to swallow a substance or put anything under your tongue you lay there you put on the headphones you flip it on you close your eyes and it whisks you off to another and it works what is it called so it's like if we were to talk about the proposed neural benefit it would be based on what's called light sound entrainment meaning shifting you into different brain waves based on the light and the sound it's called a roxiva uh there is a session on there it is like a shift wave but imagine if the shift wade didn't just have sound because the shift weight is super cool for people listening or watching it vibrates uh it doesn't just vibrate it fucking shakes it's lined with nodes i've got one of the house and the cool the cool part is it will it will guide you through breathwork sessions and specifically like the breath holds you can go like 25 percent longer just based on the distraction of the vibrating chair so and you're wearing a fingertip monitor for hrv and your hrv climbs through the roof while you're doing this thing imagine that plus flickering light that's also designed to just like whisk you off into a completely different state there's a session called rebirth and they actually recorded like whooshing sounds in mom's womb and the fetal heartbeat and you you put on the headphones you close your eyes you lay under this thing and it feels like you're just like primally being whisked back into this like fetal state and you lay there for 45 minutes and sometimes you fall asleep you're in and out of consciousness and then the last five minutes you get birthed and the music crescendos and all of a sudden like everything starts beating and the lights get brighter and your heart rate speeds up and you get this dump of adrenaline and then you're just like out and then everything goes dark and you sit up from it and you just feel like you could go conquer the world 2 p.m in the afternoon that's fucking wow i was so into that it's pretty cool that's fucking cool does it work if you use i mean i've used the shift wave the shift wave's not as comprehensive as that there was a an interesting thing around the sounds from mother's womb i had steven porges on the polyvagal theory guy and um he came up with the safe and sound protocol ssp you familiar with that so this is a mode of uh nervous system re-entrainment and it's a combination of kind of meditation with you actually have a facilitator who is uh halfway between mantra meditation psychotherapy and uh like uh sound wave uh work i guess and breath work um and one of the things that he taught me which is fucking fascinating the soft gentle reassuring sounds that mothers give to their kids is the frequency in which the safe and sound protocol works as well one of the weird things is that's the same like sound frequency yes like the tone yes so interesting it's the same for dogs and it's the same for horses and that's the reason that equine therapy and that humans and horses are able to connect as well and that humans and dogs are able to connect as well that's fascinating because the sound frequency that mothers and uh kids have in all of those species are within the same band isn't that fucking cool what if your mom has a really low voice uh she's probably jacked so it's fine yeah it doesn't matter at all um what what else have i been using it's been interesting hyperbaric oxygen therapy i mean i know that this is not super like experimental and it's probably pretty well sexy at all it's that uh hard shell at what like 2.2 atta is so good i don't know what is happening to make me feel the way that i do after i come out of a hyperbaric therapy but it is 20 minutes on five minutes off 100 oxygen on the mask normal oxygen outside of that 90 minute session down at depth 2.2 is better than any coffee better than any cold plunge better than any anything there's a little bit of parasympathetic activation too just from the the whole sensory depth nature of it i did one at brigham's yesterday and like my tongue laying out of the corner of my mouth but it's just a standard hyperbaric chamber that they've been using in operators forever michael jackson was using one in like the 90s have you guys used the hydrogen bath stuff yeah my garage okay i don't and i think there is i haven't looked it up i just It's probably going to have one.

It's just transdermal absorption of hydrogen or inhalation of hydrogen. But I know you had a little bit of studies behind it. I just use it. I like it. It's relaxing. You're just getting hundreds of times more hydrogen than a pill. It's so relaxing to me because it's a hot tub. You're sitting in a hot tub that has hydrogen in it. And you can probably talk. Yeah, you need a placebo-controlled trial where you're actually in the hot tub and nobody tells you whether or not they put hydrogen in it.

But the idea is that there is some transdermal absorption of hydrogen in a hydrogen-rich environment either in the air or in the water that's greater than what you would get from like a pill dropped in water. And hydrogen being a selective antioxidant means that for inflammation, for soreness, etc., you do feel pretty good afterwards. Yeah. But it's hard because a hot tub you feel good too. I read books for my podcast. And literally, my bookshelf on my books to read is in the garage. That's where my wife helped me put the bathtub, in a hydrogen bath with a red light.

And how long do you stay in? The red light is great. I lay out there and read books. How long do you stay in? About 40 minutes. Every day? Almost every day now. The hydrogen bath I was using really intermittently, that was when I was in Lumati. That's where I got my hydrogen concentrator was from them in San Diego. Have you seen Alex Tarnava's thing? He's the inhalation. Yeah. Yeah. Brigham has one. That is, it's the only hydrogen inhalation machine that can go up to that high of a percentage that doesn't use a nasal cannula.

So you get a pretty high concentration. That also doesn't risk fucking blowing up. Without risk of explosion. Yeah. Yeah. That's terrible. You do not want to be fucking about with hydrogen. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you put me in touch with Alex and his machine is fucking out of this world. Yeah. I don't even know if they're publicly... Yeah. If they're like widely available. I don't know if they're for sale or not. But it's called the H2 Hail. You've been working on it for a decade.

What's pushed me over the edge is there's a very trustworthy guy in the hydrogen research sector named Tyler LeBaron, who I think he founded the Hydrogen Research Foundation. I think that's what it's called. And he put his name behind this because he was so impressed with it compared to all these different machines. A lot of them coming out of Asia that have low concentration or you can't adjust the percentage or they use a nasal cannula instead of a mask. And so when I asked him about it, he was like, thumbs up.

This is the best one in the market. What do you make of, because we've got hydrogen tablets, hydrogen flasks, water infusion flasks, inhalation and now baths as well. What do you make of hydrogen, the research around it generally, and then what do you make of those different... I've used a test kit to test the bottle and the tablet and the bottle produces a higher concentration of hydrogen. It's like eight to 10 ppm, but the bottles poop out after like 300 uses. So you're going to buy a bottle frequently.

The pill is slightly lower. The transdermal absorption, there's not a lot of research on that. The inhalation is the highest concentration that you can infuse into your body as far as what they've actually looked at for hydrogen concentration. What's the proposed mechanism benefits of breathing hydrogen, of putting more of it in your body? It's an antioxidant. So basically it would quell inflammation. It would essentially, because it's a selective antioxidant, it can accept or donate electrons. So unlike say like a high dose synthetic vitamin C or vitamin E or a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, it can actually accept or donate an electron.

And so it would be something that would not say quell the hormetic response to exercise. Like after you do a hard exercise session, you're actually not supposed to take high dose antioxidants. You're not supposed to spend... Same reason you shouldn't do a cold plunge. Well, the cold plunge, you have to drop the muscle temperature by about one degree Celsius, which takes at least 10 minutes at a pretty cold temperature. Like jumping in a quick cold plunge or taking a cold shower after a workout, that's not a big problem.

That C has been overblown? It's been overblown because I don't know a lot of people who even have the time after a workout to get in a cold plunge for 10 to 20 minutes, which is where they'll desire. And that's where the research that you blunt the anabolic response actually happens. So if you're going to do a long cold plunge, wait for a few hours until after the workout. Who the fuck's doing a 10 minute cold plunge? Me. No wonder we're just surprised. I do three minutes.

So basically hydrogen and methylene blue are two examples of selective antioxidants that can accept or donate an electron that would be acceptable for post-exercise inflammation without blunting the anabolic response. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. And that is why I partnered with Function. Function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests, spanning hormones, heart health, kidney function, and even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer.

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Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modernwisdom. What about, talking about the temperature of your muscles being a mediating factor, I saw that Brian had swallowed a thermometer, a pill thermometer, and he was looking at the temperature that you need to get to, yeah, for the sauna in order to get to heat shock protein. And he'd been doing maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes at 200, but he actually needed to get to 30 minutes at 200 in order to get to that.

What was your read on that data? He did. He's also very lean, right? So that's going to be a factor in that he's probably going to need higher temperatures, right? To- Like efficient with heat. Yeah, exactly. Efficient with heat, less insulation. I think it also depends on your activity level in the sauna. Like I move a lot in the sauna. Like I'm doing pushups and squats and hot yoga and perineum tanning and all the things that one does in a sauna. So I think if you're moving around a lot, you can get pretty hot, but he does make a good point in that if you want the actual heat shock protein benefit of a sauna, which is the main mechanism that kicks in at the higher temperatures.

So not just like the detox from sweating or whatever, but the actual cellular resilience effect that you need a hotter temperature than most likely a lot of people are actually using. With the caveat being, it's kind of a paradox that sauna decreases risk of dementia and Alzheimer's, but when your cranium gets hot and you're getting above about 200 degrees and you don't have your sexy Elvin sauna hat, then you actually increase risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. So he makes a pretty good point that you probably need to go hotter than you're actually going or move more in your sauna or both, but you need to invest in a wool cap to do so.

That's the protection. Interesting. That's the protection. Yeah. How important is the heat? And ice balls. I was going to ask. Go to ice the balls. Yeah, ice the balls. I bought my sons the... I forget the brand, but they're the ice... Nutsicles. Did you get nutsicles? I have 18-year-old sons and I want grandkids and we do sauna a lot. That is the thing they say that if you're trying to reproduce, that the hot temperatures can decrease fertility. Well, the crazy thing is when I went to go and freeze my sperm, I was talking about, oh, okay, what do I need to avoid?

One of the things that the guy came back to me and said is there's so many guys that go away in a bachelor party and they just hang in a jacuzzi, just chilling with their boys for ages. He's like, that will do so much more damage to your sperm count than a ton of saunas because you've got direct contact from the heat of the water, just like absolutely infusing your testosterone and your testicles with... Chlorine and parabens and phthalates and everything else can be absorbed through sperm tissue.

How important are the heat shock proteins? Do we really need those or can you get a lot of the benefits without getting into that upper echelon? You can get, and as a matter of fact, this was a couple of months ago, they looked at sauna versus weight training and the weight training protocol produced heat shock protein elevation similar to what people were getting from a sauna session. I don't remember the time or the temperature being used, but weights would be one. Just exercising in the heat in general, paradoxically, cold plunging can increase heat shock proteins because it's a thermal regulatory mechanism.

So there are other ways that you can stress the body, kind of like fasting and autophagy to get a similar pathway activated. So it doesn't just have to be sauna. That's interesting. I've been loving resonance breathing lamps. There's this lamp called Ohm, Ohm.health, and it's got FDA registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp and on the top there's a stone and that's got a hundred hertz sensor. You just hold the stone and the lamp is connected to your wifi, has the algorithm and it detects your HIV.

When you breathe, the stone vibrates. So you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance. It gets you into resonance. It's maximizing that arrhythmia between it. It makes a little sound. It makes like an ocean sound. It's very like, two weeks ago, I got targeted on Instagram. Rules. Absolutely rules. Funny story. So Jay Wiles, the HRV expert who developed that lamp, I used to have this thing where I didn't want to do a podcast without a sidekick, without a podcast host. Jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years.

No way. Yeah. He was like the witty banter guy and he's super smart. Like whenever anybody would ask a question about HRV, Jay would jump in and then he developed this lamp and it actually is cool. It's absolutely awesome. The best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching TV. So let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever. If you've got a lamp nearby, you can just be watching the movie and you can crank out 45 minute resonance breathwork sessions without even thinking about it.

All you do. Because you don't need the light cue, just the vibratory cue. Just vibrating. It doesn't interrupt anything. If you've got it next to your bed and you can't sleep on a nighttime, you can roll over and grab it. That's why it doesn't interrupt whoever you're in bed with. So what is that? Is it the vibration that changes it or is it the breath? The idea behind resonance breathing, and it's actually kind of fascinating that nearly every human being on the planet with a breath rate of around five and a half seconds in, five and a half seconds out, achieves peak HRV.

So that's about where you see really good vagal tone is at that breath rate. And this lamp is essentially in a trainment tool to either via visual cues or via vibratory cues. If you're using the stone to cause you to breathe at that rate. There's a book called coherence and in the latter pages of that book, it was one of the first books I ever read on resonance breathing. There's like a link or a QR code to a downloadable MP3 file called the clock and bell.

And that was when I first discovered the power of resonance breathing because it's literally like tick, tock, tick, tock, ding, tick, tock, and you play it while you're working or while you're checking emails, while you're doing whatever would normally be stressful. It keeps you from email apnea because you know that you're doing resonance breathing, but it trains you how to subconsciously resonance breathe. Obviously a way more stripped down solution than what Jay developed, but home lamp is super cool. It's because it's art. It's trait rather than state.

And I think that's what everybody's trying to get themselves over to. It's like, I want to do this practice, but I don't want it to just end at the end of my session. One of the interesting things I talked to Jay about was if you get below 10 minutes, it's just state. If you get between 10 and 20, you start to move it across into trait changes too. I think you only need to do maybe three or four sessions a week, so an hour a week, something like that.

And it's so easy. So that's on my list. It doesn't do fetal heartbeat and womb whooshing sounds though. Which is a shame. Any other cool shit like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing with? The other big one that I've seen, and I know Ben's experienced it too, is the muse stem cells. So a scientist, Mari Dezawa out of Japan discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called muse. And it's fascinating because everything they've been doing outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change has been in an effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumorgenic, right?

So one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could, in theory, hypothetically become a cancer cell or what if it came into contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype and then exasperated that. And now we put trillions of these cells in your body. And so it's fascinating. 2014, this is another woman, one of the leading scientists in stem cell research, 2014, she discovered this cell. It is a, muse stands for multilineage stress enduring, which basically means traditional stem cells, you have to cryo freeze negative 80 degrees or more.

And the second you thaw them out, they begin to die. And so you've got to get them into the body quickly. These muse cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Less than 2% of stem cells are muse, but they're the super soldiers. So in all this research is now coming together, like this scientist, Dominic Deutscher out of Germany was a professor at Stanford, and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he realized in his study, even though they had stem cells, they were missing this other tag cell that was some sort of subset.

And what it was, was a muse. And so here's why that's important. A muse cell in layman's terms can become anything. So like when you're a kindergartner, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney, Greenfield, whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. So in America, most people who say stem cells don't work, they're getting bone marrow, aspirate, or they're taking cells from fat tissue. And the problem with that is that cells already developed a phenotype and the fraction is very large.

Yes. And if they're diabetic or elderly, they don't have muse. There are no muse. It's literally just traditional MSCs. And so what is so special about these cells is they will take on any phenotype. They can pierce the blood brain barrier. Other traditional cells get caught in the lungs. Traditional MSCs mostly get caught. up in the lungs, they don't pierce the blood-brain barrier. Traditional MSCs have a 3% engraftment rate. MUSE cells have a 30% engraftment rate. Traditional stem cells take multiple days to engraft. MUSE cells are engrafted within 48 hours.

And high histocompatibility, too. There's almost no immune system response. So they're immunomodulatory. Is this the shit that Matt Cook had me breathe? Did he have me atomize MUSE cells? Yes, you can nebulize now. Yeah, nebulize. He probably had you do that with MUSE-derived exosomes. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And so you can literally place it on the fulcrum plate internasally, and it will pierce the blood-brain barrier. And they have this because they did it on stroke victims in Japan. And their brain is lit up like a Christmas tree with these tagged cells.

And what's crazy is through phagocytosis, they'll consume the damaged cell and take on the personality of that cell. So if you have a damaged neuron, they become a baby neuron that's young and healthy and vibrant. This is proven quantifiably in babies born with encephalitis. They did a study in Japan. If they don't treat those children, almost all of them will be brain damaged in the subset population that was treated in a randomized control trial, which people love. Those children, 90% of them had totally normal brain function out to two years from one intravenous treatment, from one intravenous treatment.

And we actually had a patient who was on a heart transplant list. We were talking about this with Ben yesterday. Crazy. Patient on a heart transplant list. We treat them intravenous because they couldn't get the heart. By the time they got the heart and they re-ran this patient's all their data, the doctor took them off the transplant list. And there's crazy data on heart, brain. You guys are using Dazawa MUSE, right? Correct. Because the actual fraction percentage of MUSE cells widely varies. That's who Matt's using too.

Mari Dazawa is the woman in Japan who discovered these cells. This is the most game-changer thing that I have seen. I don't own into the company. It's not mine. I wish I did, but it's the most game-changer thing. We've been using it because, again, Texas has the right to try. And so, this is what Brett has seen the most impact with, with his Parkinson's. And I'm not saying it's going to—with Parkinson's, it's like, can we slow? Can we slow things? Can we give your body the best chance?

And there are so many different benefits to this, whether it's tendons or joints or orthopedic-related injuries. The data's really compelling. When you go back and look at all of the data that this woman has accrued over the last decade, and now it's a culmination of even the scientist in Germany, Dominic Deutscher, who is trying to understand what are these little subset phenotypes, and now it's all come together where he's like, holy shit, I've wasted 20 years of research trying to figure this out. They're actually harvested from a rare breed of cattle in the Middle East.

It's super cool. You're kidding. Difficult to get. You're kidding. I am kidding. He is kidding. Right. That's fucking kidding. It's a callback. This is healthy birth, healthy mother, pre-planned C-section. They take the discarded afterbirth, and from that, they can extrapolate out these super cells, these super soldier cells, basically. That's so fucking cool. Afterbirth super soldiers. Yeah, that's what I mean. So those are things that I think will be game-changer as they become more readily accepted. Florida's passed a law that allows accessibility. Tennessee just passed a law that I lobbied for, and then also I lobbied in Arizona.

We got it through the House and the Senate, but the governor of Arizona shot it down. I think Texas is going to pass more accessible laws around this, and then Utah. In Utah. So you can get it in certain states, and then certain states are regulated, and then obviously it's not an FDA-approved modality for anything. So any use of these cells would be off-label. There is no label. You know what you were talking about, putting stuff here? I was thinking about Clearspray, X-L-E-A-R. That shit, just available over the counter for mark-ons?

Fucking crazy. I can't believe that that thing is just like, oh yeah, just buy it. For the people that don't know what I'm talking about, can you explain what it is? It's a nasal spray. You know about the xylitol infused nasal spray? Yeah. Yeah. I've only ever really used it after swimming in fresh water. I discovered it way back in the triathlon days where you'd get out of a river or lake or any fresh body and just typically about 3 or 4 a.m. that night after you'd laid down and stuff connects in the nasal passages and you get the histaminergic response, you start sneezing and you start sniffling, and you spray this stuff and you get vasodilation and it seems to just knock down the histamine reaction, but it's just an OTC.

Yeah, yeah. Over-the-counter Clearspray. But if you do a course typically for about 2 or 3 months, that's enough to knock out mark-ons. Which normally you'd get a pretty expensive and difficult to get vasoactive intestinal polypeptide nasal spray for, the VIP peptide. The VIP peptide, yeah. But you can do that and then maybe some silver spray, and you can get rid of something that's literally living in your fucking nasal cavity. Yeah. You've got shit that's living inside of your nose. They're like micro-organisms. Yes. And yeah, there's Clearspray, which is just X-L-E-A-R.

Somebody knows how to pronounce it. Yeah, whatever. I mean, it's Clearspray. Clearspray. Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out, there's a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria, so your cells can actually renew themselves. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents, and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet.

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That's timeline.com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom. At checkout. So why are GLPs a concern for sarcopenia? And are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis? I'm worried about both, and that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight this fast outside of bariatric surgery. We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before, which is very unusual in medicine, to be at a place that we've never been. We now have the capacity to reduce weight magnitudes of weight that we've never had before, which means if, in fact, these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is, they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications.

It's like 20% of Americans. Plus all the people who are just using gray market stuff and not even telling anybody. Hopefully, things are going to evolve there. But what is going to happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for the last 50 years, we haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden, GLP-1s are now available. Obesity will become less of a problem, but the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed.

And by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Can you explain for the idiot in the room, please? Yeah, yeah. Meaning what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle plays a role in the outcomes. Oh, okay. So, yeah. So, she was saying it's predictive of your osteoporotic status late in life. So, women athletes that lose their menstrual cycle are very underweight. People that have struggled with anorexia end up having very low bone mineral density and then are at risk for osteoporosis.

It's kind of strange to hear three people in a room who are quite forward-thinking, quite experimental, open to new evidence being skeptical about GLPs. I understand obesity was a problem for a long time. We've got this intervention, which appears to fix the obesity thing, and now there's all of these potential side effects that we don't understand. In fact, they're not even side effects. They're more like second-order consequences. That's probably a better way to look at them, right, rather than side effects. How do you guys feel about the potential for millions, tens of millions of people to be taking GLPs over the next decade or so?

I think one of the big challenges, and this is what you just touched on, is in traditional medicine, it's an insurance model. And this is my forte. And the challenge with that traditional model is you are based off an indication, and that indication is based off a specific dosage. These trials were based off chronically sick, morbidly obese people, right? This was originally going to be a diabetes medication. Which is where the lion's share of human clinical data comes from, is disease population. So then the problem is you take that and you roll it out to the general population.

The one with the 33 BMI. Yeah, and now every housewife in Malibu is using it to lose 10 pounds for vacation. Guess what else it does? This is not really talked about. It has different sexual side effects if you are a man or a woman. Is that like the anhedonia thing where it reduces pleasure? Yes. But it's more pronounced in one sex? Yes. Which one? So in women. Oh, really? And the data is still emerging because we haven't been using it. Are you ready? I've had that GLP one bottle for my life.

Jesus. God damn it. You're so lean, but I can't have sex with you. So for men, it can increase testosterone, it can decrease body fat, decrease estrogen, and it can increase sex drive. But what we're starting to see for women is that it can, again, decrease body fat, but it also seems to decrease sex drive. So just give them some PT-141 nasal spray and we're back off to the races, right? Or we study women more. Yeah. Or we study women more and perhaps we get, to your point, specialized dosing.

Because the problem is in that model, I literally right before we walked in here, got a text from somebody who said, my wife's trizepatide is no longer covered by insurance. And they're trying to move her to a dosage that would be covered. Okay. That's, you're going to move her up to a higher dosage to get insurance. To a higher dosage. Yes. Even though she was getting the efficacy out of the lower dose. Right. And that's insurance companies. I've broke this down on your podcast too before.

It's a big challenge because 30% of the revenue of an insurance company comes from monetizing drugs. So they are changing dosages based off rebates and what rebate pays them the most. And so you may be on an efficacious dosage that's working great for you, but they may go, yeah, we're not covering that one anymore. You've got to bump up. Yeah. Which is super interesting because it's an efficacious dose. I mean, we were just talking about 0.25, which is a micro dose that suppresses food noise. That for a lot of people is enough.

Nowhere near enough to get covered by insurance. But then these larger doses is where you see the issue back to sarcopenia, where you're told you're supposed to go to the gym and lift weights. And the only way for you to do that without feeling flat is to eat a good meal, but you sit in front of your favorite smoothie or pre-workout or whatever, and you get nauseous trying it. So then you're flat in the gym. And so this is like the whole gray man hypothesis where the road that we're going down is getting really smart, getting big AI, uh, potentially like, you know, hardware infused brains, while our body wastes away in the little stick figures.

And the gray men are us from the future on GOP ones and AI. Thank goodness we have testosterone. Is the, um, the dosage, is it a pre-click pen? Is that why people can't, because when I think, oh, this is the dosage, I just think about a vial and an insulin syringe and you go, well, I'll just draw more or less. So the companies are launching those other dosages to give more mobility to patients and options. So the commercially available, uh, companies, the manufacturers are compounders have been doing that for the last five years.

Um, but that still goes back to, it's going to be based off what was in the clinical trials and what dosage were showed to be efficacious in those trials, which is again, an obese patient population. And if you want insurance to cover it, insurance is going to do it following the literature. Oh, that's so interesting. We're in a space where we don't really understand a no microdosing. We do know that GLP ones affect muscle positively, despite what you're seeing in the literature, which is it reduces muscle mass.

The majority of the fat, the majority of the mass loss is fat. Why I think I actually think that GLP ones are really good is it, it has the potential to improve muscle quality. Imagine by reducing intramuscular triglycerides. Imagine you have a Wagyu steak. You go on a GLP one, you, you know, inject it. Your Wagyu steak becomes like a fillet. So the texture and the composition can improve with GLP one. So we need it. I believe that we need it because we have not been effective before.

And again, I don't think body fat is the major problem. I think it's intramuscular. That is true that a lot of the studies on, I think it was primarily red a true tide that showed muscle loss were done via DEXA evaluations, which couldn't differentiate between lean mass loss coming from muscle or lean mass loss coming from something like intrahepatic tissue, intramuscular triglycerides, or other things that would actually be a positive when it comes to loss. But if you're not eating enough food, the muscle loss thing is still a pretty, pretty big risk.

To try and recap while we're out here, because that was, that's fucking mind blowing. The studies that have been done are mostly on morbidly obese people because they're morbidly obese. They're given quite high dosages when it comes to the prescribed, prescriber approved dosages that people can take because they need to follow the science. That means that even people who are looking to lose a little bit of weight and might be able to get efficacious effects from microdosing, they need to be given the big boy dosages because they're the only ones that currently have been studied in the literature.

Is that right? It's an attempt to try and land the ship and thread the needle and get insurance coverage. And then the initial insulin- Otherwise, there's a positive where the research has come from already. And the initial prescriptions for the first few years were preloaded syringes. Yes. Right? And so you couldn't have the autonomy to shift. And so when we were seeing muscle wasting, it's like, yeah, because a lot of these people are taking way higher dosages than they should have been taking. And their doctor's just trying to give them a solution.

nose diving that way when they don't need to, they could get away with 0.25 or 0.5. And what Gabriel was saying is like the muscle loss is not necessarily a direct mechanistic cause of the GLP itself. And some of the actual loss from that might be favorable. It's the loss that occurs from simply not being able to get into the gym and or eat adequate protein. Because you've got such low energy because you're not eating enough. And low food volume. What's the mechanism for the sex drive in women?

Dopamine. Dopamine brain reward pathways. Because the pathways are very similar. And they're looking at GLP-1 for alcohol addiction and drug addiction. It's not purely. Anything that's hedonic. It's not solely just related to body fat and appetite. It has brain effects. It's not only found in the gut and slowing, making you feel full and slowing gastric emptying. It's also you have GLP-1 in the brain and so it impacts your dopamine response. Desire, generally. I brought this up. Zombie mode. I brought this up with Rogan. It was like what happens when our entire economy is driven on consumerism and you pharmacologically suppress desire?

Right? Like most people are buying shit. Not things that they need. Just things that they want. And it's sort of repeat habituation. I'm just gonna satisfy, satiate myself. And yeah, maybe it's sex. Maybe it's video games. Maybe it's porn. Maybe it's social media. Maybe it's weed. So. You're going down the GLP to GDP. Wait, but here's what we're talking about. Very nice. I totally missed that. I'm like the mom in the room. But what's happening is that, so I see patients in my clinic, right? Strong medical.

People are getting a little depressed. They don't get the same enjoyment from sex, from eating, or from spending. People on GLPs get depressed. And now I wanna be really clear. I'm not anti-GLP-1s. I mean, we prescribe them. But it's the idea that kind of what Brigham was saying is that we understand the utilization in trials with sick people with type 2 diabetes. We don't really know all of the other secondary outcomes that this can cause. And again, part of them are positive. But decreased sex drive, fun, mood, all of those things, those are a problem.

I remember looking at. Yeah, it's a great aid for stoicism. I looked at some research around bariatric surgery outcomes, and there's an increase in suicide risk after bariatric surgery. But it's not just because it's highly traumatic, and sometimes there's infections, and sometimes idiot surgeons close you up with galls still inside of you, and things can go wrong. It's that typically people who are sufficiently overweight that they use bariatric surgery are eating to deal with something that's happening in their life. They've now had that pathway. They've had that pathway of reward and sedation taken away from them, but the problem still exists.

So now what you're talking about here is, hey, you're using GLPs to help yourself lose weight. The weight loss has been curtailed, but the reason that you overate still exists. And the same thing goes for porn and video games. If you were to go to Dr. Lyon's practice, I guarantee you, you're doing a full workup, you're assessing the blood work, and you're looking at the patient holistically. Of course. If you go into a primary care practice in an insurance model, they have six minutes with the patient on average.

They want to put a win on the board for that patient. That patient's asking for a GLP-1. That patient probably is pre-diabetic or diabetic. That patient probably does have weight to lose, but what is the root cause of this illness? And these are the symptoms, not the root cause. And then they prescribe the GLP-1 without ever saying, do they have a hormonal inadequacy? Do they have a family history of mental health issues, depression, anxiety? You're doing all that. You have the ability in a cash model.

And you bring up another really good point that say someone needs to lose weight. Again, we have to recognize we have been very unsuccessful. Now we have a tool that makes us successful. However, let me pose it to you this way. If you, Brigham, had low thyroid and you were hypothyroid, well, you might try to get to the root cause, but let's just say you have low thyroid and I give you thyroid replacement to normalize your levels, you wouldn't think twice, right? I'm going somewhere with this.

If you had trouble seeing, let's say your eyes got older, if I gave you glasses, that wouldn't be an issue. It would affect my sex appeal a little bit. I would push back. I would ask for contacts. Fine, fine. But wait, I'm going somewhere with this. But if someone comes into your point with, say, low testosterone as a woman or a man, they are now juicing. They are now on steroids. So this is a problem. Not that your testosterone is low. I'm gonna give you testosterone to bring you up to a normal level.

We're not talking about optimization. We're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about someone who's using a GLP-1 now has low testosterone, man or woman, and the thing, the balance, let's say they have low sex hormones, because of the industry stigma in general. Everyone at this table is very interested in health. But for the average person, if you go, hey, I'm on testosterone, they're like, oh my gosh, you're juicing? You're on steroids. Because what you're saying is spot on because there is a stigma in primary care, too, with testosterone.

So real world example, and he covered this on Joe, is Jelly Roll. We've helped him lose 250 pounds. Everyone immediately assumes we put him on a GLP-1. No, we ran his blood work. He had low testosterone. He was chronically inflamed. He had all sorts of other biometric issues unrelated to discipline. And all we did was fix those root causes. He never took a GLP-1, and to this day, everyone's like, and I sell GLP-1s, I would tell you if he took it. It'd be great. It'd be great advert for GLPs if you needed it.

The guy did it with blood, sweat, and tears, diet, lifestyle, nutrition, and optimized hormones, yes. But in general medicine, they view it as testosterone's the boogie man. Yeah, it's a misunderstanding between hypogonadism and supraphysiological dosing of testosterone, and not understanding the sweet spot in between. And I still, like I was watching Pete Hezga's recent video about putting war fighters on testosterone. He wasn't putting war fighters on testosterone, it was screening. Or yeah, screening for that. I still like to see that conversation couched in the discussion of like lift weights with your legs, where there's a high concentration of androgen receptors, and cover the bases like creatine, and zinc, and boron, and omegas, and magnesium, and some of the upstream precursors.

You know, look into sleep, look into recovery, and then make the decision. So I know you guys aren't saying just like, throw testosterone willy-nilly. You say you did blood work with Jelly Roll. I think the problem is like, it is massive, the number of people who are hypogonadal, the number of men, in particular, who are hypogonadal. I don't think that testosterone replacement therapy is the first solution, but sometimes it is the most effective solution. Especially in a scenario where you're unable, like in a war fighter, to live the optimal lifestyle.

This is very important. Very important conversation. What you are saying is absolutely correct. We are seeing a decrease in testosterone year after year. Obesity goes up, behaviors go down, people are eating, not sleeping, all sorts of things. There is a medical risk when someone has low testosterone, for heart disease, for osteoporosis, cognition, depression. So if I had one dream in this room of strong men and powerful men, we would clear up the idea of a testosterone revolution, and we would clear up this idea that testosterone is steroids, and somehow I can give medication to make someone have less fat, but if I give medication to someone to have them build muscle, it's a problem.

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And if you're still on the fence, they have a 30-day sleep trial, plus they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com slash modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's E-I-G-H-T sleep.com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. Why do you think testosterone's become so demonized? You know- It makes your blood super thick. It gives you a heart attack. So in the 30s, people used testosterone. It was discovered in the 30s as a medical intervention, and there was one study that came out by Huggins, and it showed that testosterone caused prostate cancer.

So in the 30s, people were using it as a medical intervention. It wasn't, there wasn't a stigma associated with it. At the same time, people were interested. We're seeing an increase in sport performance, right? Because we do know that testosterone increases muscle mass. Combined testosterone training, you get better outcomes. And motivation for forward motion. All of these things. For decades, people would castrate men because they were worried that it was going to make or start prostate cancer and treat prostate cancer. The study was wrong. Yeah, there were only three patients in the study.

I can't believe you know this. So there were three patients in this study. So they castrated men. They didn't put anyone- You mean we didn't give men testosterone? No, they suppressed androgen. No, they actually tied rubber bands around their balls. Yeah. There were three patients. They don't want to do that. Because it's Huggins' study said, if you've got too much testosterone, you might get prostate cancer. Therefore, we'll cut your balls off. Or if you have prostate cancer, we need to restrict you. We'll cut your balls off.

Yeah. It was kind of hard to survive with this. Yeah, and it was wrong. But it was wrong. It was all dogma that then got adopted by the medical establishment. It was wrong. Can you imagine like, whoops. And this was debunked by Dr. Morgan Tyler, a prominent urologist in the 90s. How did it take 60 years? I know. So this is the problem. It took 60 years and now we're seeing the opposite. Yeah. Testosterone doesn't cause these things. Testosterone, there is a risk for having low testosterone.

Testosterone doesn't cause prostate cancer. Testosterone doesn't make cardiovascular disease worse. There is all of these myths. Yeah. Which is really important, but we got it wrong. Well, some of them are true though, hair loss. If you think about what Dr. Morgan Tyler uncovered is it comes down to saturation levels. So think of receptor sites. You can only water a plant so much. So if a plant gets no water, it dies. If a plant gets too much water, it dies. Receptor sites are the same way. You can only water that plant so much.

So as men had no testosterone chemically castrated, their risk of prostate cancer was statistically less because you have no testosterone, but you have a higher risk of every other form of cancer. You have a higher risk of metabolic disease, diabetes. Most of the risks. Losing bone mass. Of testosterone are not what we thought they were. And they're a little like, you know, excess aromatization and conversion to estrogen if it's improperly managed. So you can get emotional issues or gynecomastia or increased conversion to DHT, which can cause male pattern baldness.

But these are not like life or death issues. And most of those issues occur when you push past the Z-Logic damage. And there's a difference between enhancement and replacement of something the body already makes. And for the military operators, so I had Tim Parlatore, who is the attorney who submitted the memo on the podcast that we haven't released it yet. And the idea is that if you have low testosterone, you are at a disadvantage. If we send guys to war, we're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about guys that are symptomatic with hypogonadism, with low levels of testosterone.

If we don't even screen, right now they're not even screening. If we don't screen, we are sending to war guys with a massive disadvantage. Suboptimal. Suboptimal. Dude, I want every single soldier to have 2,000 nanograms per deciliter of testosterone. Yes, I fucking do. No, remember, we don't want too emotional. I want fucking monsters who can't control their rage. I want, that's what I want. Bald, rage-infused monsters. Yeah, exactly. Just fucking stick-skin arms. No hair, grimacing everywhere. Well, we don't want them defending. Listen, I, we. Fucking each other.

Tiny balls. Just fucking everywhere. Because we've gone so sideways. Listen, as a military family, as a Navy family. With high testosterone. With high, yes, my husband, yes, has high testosterone. We would never want those war fighters going in. And you know, I want to say something else, is that people are saying, well, what about the women? Well, considering only about 10 people have read the memo, women will also be screened. They're also complicated. Like, it is more complicated. But if we can get screening done initially to protect our soldiers, then we have a way to do something about it.

We can fix and identify and acknowledge that there's a problem. But the fact that it is so controversial, the fact that it has gotten people so upset, is outrageous. But you do see a political camp. These, this is an agenda. I'm sorry to get conspiratorial, but I've watched it, and I've been behind the scenes, and I've been all the way to D.C., and I've sat at the FDA, I've testified at the FDA. I have watched this play out. The same thing that happened with men and testosterone happened with women and women's hormones, with the Women's Health Initiative.

And I was a drug rep when they released that study. And the first thing the company did was hand me osteoporosis drugs. And all of a sudden, all of us were carrying osteoporosis drugs. And our job was to go into doctors and scare the hell out of them about you should never put a woman on estrogen again. You need to put them on an osteoporosis drug to preserve their bone mineral density. But guess what? That osteoporosis drug exasperated hot flashes, which is another issue. Now they need a hot flash drug.

So you're selling them four drugs to fix what one natural hormone would have fixed that was there since the dawn of time, but the whole study was flawed to begin with, and that all got debunked. But it took 20-something years to bring estrogen. back to women. I don't know how much the cultural conversation and the pushback around testosterone is to do with people understanding a study of three people from 1930. I think it's much more cultural than that. I think it's much more of a what does testosterone represent generally.

I think that and also the the same type of treatment that GLP-1 is given in terms of perception of taking a shortcut, right? Testosterone is often perceived the same way, right? You're not going to go lift weights and you're not going to pay attention to lifestyle factors and you're just going to throw a band-aid on it. But no one cares if someone's taking GLP-1. Exactly. No one's accusing somebody that lost a ton of weight on GLPs of being non-natty, right? But if you ever do a six-week course of fucking enanthate, that means for the rest of your time your natty status is gone.

So what is it? Why that? What's the difference? And I think this is a good split test, right? You have two drugs, delivery mechanisms not too dissimilar. One's IM, one's sub-Q. Both can be sub-Q actually. So you can use them in similar ways. They achieve similar things like a leaner, more built physique. Why is it the testosterone's got this? Is it the sort of masculinized side of this? Is it aggression? What do you think? I think it's the performance-enhancing benefits in sports and that's created a dogma around it.

I think it goes beyond sports though. I mean there is simply a perception, I think, that if someone is on testosterone they are taking a little bit of a shortcut when it comes to muscle mass. If they're low, are they taking a shortcut? If they're hypogonadal, they're not taking a shortcut. They're addressing a deficiency but there's still the perception that you're not doing the work. And I think that feeds into it. I think some of it is the unfairness potentially of the sports performance angle as well.

Do you not think that the indication is wrong today? Like the clinically low, too fasted? I have to be very careful about this. You are way too well read. So basically what he's saying is our indication of 300 nanograms per deciliter, it's in different countries depending on where you live. In Italy it might be 350. That will determine what your definition of hypogonadal is. So the lower range of normal from a adult male in the US at the moment is 300 nanograms per deciliter. And that's too low.

In my opinion. What's the upper bound? You think that the lower range should be raised? I think that, again, I want to couch this very carefully as a practicing physician who doesn't... This is not medical advice. No, no, no. But listen, so I'm going to give you the answer. Just pass it to me on a note under the table and I can say it. I'm not a doctor. So what I'm saying is that it's not just the number. So there is other things that go into effect, for example, and I figured this out.

I had a guy who was from Homeland Security and his testosterone was 600. And he had all the signs and symptoms of low T. And I'm like, brother, I'm not putting you on tests. Just get more sleep. You're going to be great. And it turns out he had a CAG repeat, a CAG repeat. So the testosterone that he had wasn't effective because he had issues with the receptors. We all have different receptors. A testosterone of 900 for you might equal a testosterone of 300 for Brigham.

Right. And then the CAG repeat is not a SHBG free available testosterone. It's an actual receptor issue. Whether or not it's going to be converted into free, it's still not interacting with the receptor. We don't test those routinely. It's primarily done in research where we're still gathering the data as what the impact is. But the idea that, number one, that testosterone is going to cause harm in physiologic ranges. So if someone is 300 or 500, but feel like crap and it looks like they need testosterone, but they don't measure low, you know, in the medical world, we are, according to guidelines, not supposed to essentially treat that.

That's where I was going. A lot of that is insurance-based too. And we go back to this whole conundrum of like, you can practice a sick care model and it's a challenge because personalized medicine is exactly that. It should be personalized. Each individual is different and their physiological response is different. But insurance will cover 299 but not 301. Does TRT create the same problem that Ozempic does, like people are pharmacologically solving a problem that lifestyle should have partially fixed? Is it an artificial solution to an artificial problem?

I think some people are. Absolutely. I mean, that goes back to what I was saying earlier about lifting weights and micronutrient replenishment and relationships and sunlight and de-stressing and recovery and sleep. If you have all of those parameters in place, which a lot of people nowadays do, I think there can still be anything from environmental factors that influence testosterone availability. This is the endocrine disruptor discussion, you know, the plastic discussion, personal care products and foods wrapped in plastic, which I think can affect that. There is the industrial pollution, air pollution, even like light pollution having an effect on the stress and sleep component.

Like I think we have a bigger uphill battle, including the fact that not a lot of guys are like chopping wood and building fences and hauling rocks outdoors. And so I think it's a cluster of factors that influence a modern lifestyle, putting you at a higher risk for hypogonads. We definitely have higher levels of low T than we ever have as a society. But then you also look like my good friend Kali Means breaks down the whole food system and ultra-processed foods. And when did we see that spike?

The big changes started happening in the 80s. And we can go back to like the infancy of how that occurred as soon as the government began to regulate big tobacco. Big tobacco, JP, JP, Philip Morris or whatever, went out and started acquiring most of the major food production companies. And most of those major food production companies pivoted from healthy foods, more hearty meals to ultra-processed foods. Ultra-processed foods have a 30 plus percent profit margin. A banana has like an 8 to 10 percent profit margin. So it's our food systems.

It's our glyphosate rules and regulations around our crops. All of those things are controlled in much bigger dynamics. All I hear right now is that cigarette companies have made us less yoked. That's the story. But here's the problem. Let's say you take the warfighter. Everything that we named here is a luxury. The idea that you can sun your perineum and that you can go to bed early and you can sleep in and you can reduce light pollution. These are all luxuries that a warfighter, a new mom are not going to have.

So if we restrict the ability to treat based on allowing them to solve for lifestyle factors first, there is enough evidence to support that low testosterone contributes to disease risk that I wouldn't wait. Why would I wait? You don't have the degrees of freedom within your lifestyle for certain people that have got constraints on their sleep, constraints on their ability to eat, etc. I guess, Ben, you've experimented a lot, obviously, every performance intervention under the sun. Where does testosterone rank for you compared with sleep or resistance training or light or diet, stress, stuff like that?

In my defense, I should not send my perineum. Recently? Yeah. Since I've been in Austin, I haven't had the opportunity. I think it depends primarily on age. So I've been on testosterone for four years. I began when I was 40. The main thing I noticed was being able to recover a lot faster, being able to hit the gym for what I do in the morning that keeps me sane, keeps me active and keeps me productive and keeps my head clear. I can continue to do that day after day, whereas I was noting a significant increase in the amount of time that I needed for recovery between workouts just based on HRV, based on soreness.

So I would rank it higher and higher in order of priority, the older a man gets. I know we're talking about men, but obviously women are part of this discussion as well. I would say somewhere in the range of 35 to 40 years old and most men, Gabriel probably has the actual demographic data somewhere tucked away in a giant book. It becomes pretty important. So I would say for me as I age, increasingly important. One other thing that we should mention, of course, is the fertility discussion, right?

The younger you are, and this is the problem with the whole looks maxing community of dudes totally screwing themselves over from like a legacy and childhood standpoint when they're 16 years old. We do need to bear in mind that a 30-year-old who may be hypogonadal and may still face some of this uphill battle in terms of a post-industrial lifestyle or a modern lifestyle, keeping them that way and not being able to do things besides testosterone. Replacement therapy needs to know there's an impact on fertility and their practitioner needs to be aware of methods to maintain quality.

I froze my sperm last year just in case I ever wanted to get on TRT at some point. I'm not on it and I was like, I just feel like it's probably a good insurance policy and it is so cheap. You want to talk about some fucking patriarchy. One of the places that it definitely exists is how cheap it is for guys to freeze their sperm compared with them to freeze their. Well, it's probably less expensive because you're using Mike's butcher shop down the street for that.

It's a great solution. Also, just because someone goes on testosterone, like you had mentioned, there are interventions like HCG. You have to work with a provider that knows. It doesn't mean you're going to be infertile. 10% of men just at baseline have low fertility. 2% of men have no sperm. If a guy is hypogonadal and he's younger, he should still be treated. You should bank his sperm. You should give him the appropriate discussion. Give him some HCG, but you wouldn't want to withhold a medical treatment.

I just think it's a mistake and if we don't destigmatize the idea that somehow testosterone is going to ruin the world and make them bald and angry. I'm kind of fascinated by the equivalency of GLPs on one side and testosterone on the other. Morally, there shouldn't really be much difference between the two. One is helping you eat less and one is helping you build more muscle and your hormonal profile to improve. I get the sense that a good bit of it is that one side is quite male-coded and one is to do with aggression and dominance and pursuit and forward motion.

Another is somewhat more female-coded, which is that it's helping you to lose weight and maybe be a little bit more slender. This looks like health and the other one looks more like luxury, perhaps, or unnecessary enhancement. Everybody knows a fat person that loses weight. You didn't need that. You can see it visually. You can't see someone's low testosterone in the same way. That's really fucking interesting. What happens when a woman goes on a GLP-1 and her testosterone is low? She tells her sister, I have low testosterone.

I'm going to start testosterone. She's like, oh my God, you're going to start steroids? Then she's ashamed. We know that a person will go on typically a GLP-1 for two years and come off. Now, essentially, there's a weight cycling. It becomes a skinny fat situation and they've lost now lean tissue and they put on fat. Let's say in a profile of a decreasing milieu, her estrogen goes down, her testosterone goes down, all her hormones go down, but then because of the stigma, she's ridiculed or ashamed because now she's on steroids.

In a moment where we have the ability to shift her life and her trajectory, she doesn't take it because of all the noise that she's now juicing. That's a problem. I didn't even realize the stigma was that significant for women. It is. Testosterone for a man is the number one biomarker. There is no other biomarker that reflects the risk of type 2 diabetes, that reflects the risk of potential depression. When you say biomarkers, I like the whole hormone panel. Out of all of them. Total T, free T, everything?

I would say total testosterone because, again, it's really free T, which is a really good point, but if I had to pick one biomarker, it would be testosterone. Let's say if we take that back to soldiers and we don't routinely screen them, that one biomarker will give us more information into their future than any other biomarker. I want to know what's happening with peptide access right now because you were part of this big hearing that recently happened. If you're going to spend an hour in the gym, you might as well look hot and feel comfortable while you're doing it.

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What's going on? No, thank you. That's a good question. So, I've been trying to ring the bell on this since it started. During the Biden administration, the FDA kind of in a vacuum blindsided the public by putting peptides on the naughty list and said these 17 peptides are now considered dangerous to compound, meaning overnight the regulatory landscape shifted. And so, compounding pharmacies like mine legally could not make a safe product that had been in the market oftentimes for more than five to six years and with no heads up.

We weren't seeing adverse safety data, nothing. One of the ways that I've tried to prove this is I submitted multiple FOIA requests to the FDA over the last three years and they had not responded to a single FOIA request. So, when Secretary Kennedy was put into this position and was given the opportunity to try and drive change, this was one of the first things I discussed with him was, hey, we've submitted these FOIA requests. We haven't gotten answers. Industry's just asking for guidance. We're not making this, but you created a gray and black market overnight.

And so, just two weeks ago, they federally indicted. a gray market peptide manufacturer out of Florida, who was buying all of his API from China that was painted with testosterone. And so women were injecting pharmaceutical ingredients. So it's the base product that you use to compound the medication. So that being said, after a lot of lobbying, begging, pleading and flights to DC, and thank God for guys like Joe, I'll say, you know, Rogan's been a voice on this and ringing the bell that, hey, why are we banning peptides?

Why are we forcing people to gray and black market? We had a hearing. So, and that's a crazy story in itself. We could write a book on it. Literally, they had the group built out. We submitted over 800 studies, 5,000 pages of documents. We did a retrospective analysis of 16 million patients that were on BPC-157. Out of that, we found three adverse events. Three adverse events. Yeah. Somebody said about there by the hundreds of thousands of uses of multiple peptides, including BPC, and like the number of adverse events was close to zero.

Correct. Almost. And versus, let's look at the- What, seven? This is one of the largest retrospective analysis ever done of a medication. And so I want to be clear because another famous influencer clinician just took to the internet and tried to debunk this hearing. The hearing wasn't about efficacy. We, this is what, this is a confusion for people. It's all about safety because what people fail to realize, again, going back to the process and the legal structure, if you file for a new drug indication, what I am asking you for is to give me Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare dollars.

I'm asking you to force employers to cover a treatment for an employee because 90% of Americans get their coverage through employers and so that's the reason insurance plans go up every year because they're monetizing all this stuff. And so this is not that world. This is a cash pay product for a patient using their hard earned money to decide under the supervision of a clinician to fulfill this prescription through a board certified pharmacy that is inspected by both the state and federal government. And we had a safe pathway.

And that pathway was removed in a vacuum with no evidence. And then we went and argued with evidence, submitted over 5,000 pages of studies and the FDA in this environment gave these clinicians literally like a week to review everything. So these doctors, these poor doctors are trying to cram for the test before they come in here. And we had submitted it a month in advance. And then the FDA releases a statement to the public with a black market peptide API data set saying we are gonna stand against this most likely even if these clinicians vote yes.

And by the way, here's a certificate of analysis from a compounding pharmacy. It wasn't a compounding pharmacy. It was a fucking black market manufacturer that had already been shut down. Why? So it was very misleading. That's a difficult question to ask. I don't, again, when we sat in there, the clinicians began to get so frustrated that at one point, one of the FDA individuals said, hey, look, I just wanna be clear. We're not intentionally hiding or misrepresenting data. And the clinician was basically saying, well, yeah, it really feels like that.

Like, it doesn't feel like you were giving us a shot at this. They ended up overturning six out of the seven peptides. And what was disappointing though is the FDA all voted straight line one way. The clinicians that use these products and are actually clinicians, end users in the medical space all voted straight line yes. And it was like clear which pathways they were on. This is a really good point because maybe you can clear this up is that physicians, practicing physicians will say, well, why are there no randomized control trials?

Why is this data mechanistic data? Why rodent models, animal models? If you can prove it mechanistically, then we should be able to see it in some type of randomized control trial. And I think that, as we know. Yeah, that's great, great. So actually on BPC, we submitted, I think four or six human studies. I can't remember, I don't wanna tell, let's say four to be safe, at least four human studies. Now the issue with a peptide is you cannot patent something that is readily available in nature.

That's patent law in the United States. So look at what's going on with the GLP-1s. 503A patient specific pharmacy can compound a GLP-1 weight loss drug. It is infuriating the big pharmaceutical cartels because they're like, wait a second, we spent billions of dollars to make these drugs. And so a lot of the pressure on peptides as a class has come because big pharma is monetizing these at a new level. And so in one breath, you've got these big pharmaceutical companies telling the FDA, these are dangerous, these are this, these are that.

In the next breath, Eli Lilly goes and spends $7 billion to acquire a peptide manufacturer out of China. Merck is attempting to patent over 200 potential future cutting peptides. But a lot of the physicians who are, or were prescribing peptides, they have a pathway via an IRB to be able to start to gather data, right? To actually show what's actually working in advocating and saving patients. IND, and this is the general gist of the FDA stance from what I can gather being at this, I testified and gave my two cents on what I think and where we are and how we got here.

But the general rebuttal of the FDA as a stance is, well, we have an IND process. So go get a new drug indication. And my rebuttal is apothecary precedes big pharma. The founder of Pfizer was a compounder. Compounding has been in existence for over 100 years. In 1997, Congress passed a bill to protect compounders that said we are going to allow the patients and clinicians to prescribe unique medications to a patient and provide accessibility. And the problem is if we hand the keys to the castle over to industry, and I said this in my speech to the Senate, if Eisenhower, everyone talks about Eisenhower's speech in the military industrial complex.

The second half of Eisenhower's speech, he talked about the scientific industrial complex. And what would happen if we hand science over to industry? And if we allow industry to control our scientific processes and protocols, and that is where we are headed. And that is terrifying because what you will have is everyone getting the same dose GLP-1. You're gonna have everyone getting the same, because this is what we have a double-blind placebo-controlled trial on. And this is where academia drives me mad because when Rogan posted his pictures of plasmapheresis, some dipshit doctor talks about how it wrecks the immune system.

No, this is a 24-hour decrease in your immune response. And he talked about how there's no, this is pseudoscience. Plasmapheresis does have a double-blind placebo-controlled randomized trial. And that double-blind placebo-randomized trial showed that it actually took 18 months off of your biological age on people over the age of 50. But people wanna split hairs and decide when they wanna use double-blind placebo-controlled randomized trials and when they don't. Well, here's what I've seen in medicine. But this is what is so relevant here is that there's a need for improved care.

And because there's a need, that's why people are reaching for peptides. That's why people are looking for plasmapheresis. Typically, the consumer, the patient, will drive forward, say, plasmapheresis for something that is different than, say, myasthenia gravis or something that is an indication. But this is how we start to grow. I mean, before, no one thought mold was a thing. I moved to New York. I got really sick. No one was talking about mold, whatever, 15 years ago. And all my blood work was great, and I was living in stocky botryos.

And now, environmental testing is more of a thing, but there is the patient, and then there's the need that we have to fulfill. And hopefully, the science catches up. The idea of randomized controlled trials, I mean, they're valuable. We still need that for peptides. Maybe not within your sphere, but the general medical community, they need randomized controlled trials. My argument is this is about medical accessibility and medical freedom. And if a patient under the supervision of a clinician, under the guidance of the subject matter expert wants to utilize a compound that is safe, who is the federal government to obstruct a safe pathway and force them to a dangerous pathway?

And if people love randomized controlled trials, I would say, let's look at the products that have hit the market. What happened with OxyContin? What happened with all of the anti-inflammatories? What happened with antidepressants? In the second largest retrospective study analysis of a drug that went through randomized controlled trials, what did we see? 25 years later, what we saw is antidepressants don't fucking work. They work for a small subset of the population. They barely differentiate from placebo, yet they increase suicidal ideation, suicidal tendencies, violent thoughts. Most of the school shooters were on antidepressants.

We have created a colossal disaster for a product that in its own scale, that was developed from a Pfizer consultant, does not differentiate barely by one point from placebo. But yet we've spent trillions of dollars on these medications. Public service announcement brought to you by Saffron. Who gets to decide how much risk people should be able to take with their bodies? Like should the FDA protect people from making bad medical decisions? Or like what point basically, how much evidence should be required before adults can access experimental treatment?

That's a difficult one. I think it's risk reward. I say this with everything. Again, peptides are not a silver bullet, right? They're a tool in the tool belt. But for somebody who's a real world example is Brett Favre, he's diagnosed with Parkinson's. This Parkinson's is terminal. It is progressive. The doctors basically say we've got nothing, but there are things that can help, that have a shot at helping. And a lot of those trials are in other countries and not accepted here, but there are modalities that he's getting benefits from.

And those modalities are being obstructed. And so I believe in a patient's right to choose. And one of the things we're working on here in Texas, Senator, sorry, Congresswoman Lacey Hull is going to submit a bill in Texas that's going to be called the Right to Try Act. And the Right to Try Act is going to try and provide patients in Texas with medical freedom. And we're trying to do the same thing at the federal level. The belief is through citizens' petitions, if you're a chronically ill patient, or you have a terminal disease, or you have some sort of catastrophic debilitating issue, why is the government stopping you from using a stem cell product?

Why is the government stopping you? This is the end of your runway. Beyond the threshold of severity in terms of your health, you're allowed to throw anything that you want at the wall within reason. I think you should. That's my personal opinion. But still a lot of that would still be out of pocket though, right? All of it's out of pocket. Yeah, none of this would be covered by insurance, which goes back to the main crux of the issue. Like if somebody wants to spend their cash to son their, you know, like who are you to tell?

If I want to fly to Thailand for double Vs, I can do it. Yeah. I just got to pay for myself. And so when people are leaving the country to go get treatments, and it's like, these treatments should be available here. We don't need Big Brother impacting every decision. And I get like protecting the consumer, but where was that protection with glyphosates? Where was that protection with the antidepressants, with the Oxycontin, with the level of corruption we've seen from our regulatory bodies that are supposed to be here to protect us, right?

And those people are swapping spit oftentimes with industry at a level that's nauseating. But it's challenging because you might be doing something in a way that is ethical. But if you've got another compounding pharmacy, like in Florida, where they're putting all this crap and how do we protect the people? I do believe in medical agency, that people should have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they want to use a medication because they have five pounds to lose, they should be able to get to choose.

We should not, as physicians, ever dictate what an individual wants to do. There has to be agency. But then the question is, how do we protect the people that don't know and think they're getting one thing? I think we have to assess it as a different model. That's where I keep going with this. There's the insurance model, and then there's the cash pay model. And in the cash pay model, we don't need a new drug indication that costs 300 to a billion dollars because it's going to stifle and limit innovation.

And that entire model was built around a framework that was built by industry, that has a reason to build a moat around accessibility of care. Because they are monetizing chronic disease at an astronomical level. That's why the average American in the 80s was on one prescription drug, and now the average American's on four or more prescription drugs. And everybody's made, but we're the sickest country developed nation in the world. So in a perfect world for you, like in a cash pay model, there would be right to try in every state.

I think right to try and under the supervision of a clinician. That's an important caveat. Like I believe in putting- I'm just de- Doctor holding me back. I believe in the sacred relationship of a patient and clinician. I believe that most clinicians, when given the opportunity, want to do what is right for their patient. And oftentimes their hands are tied. And they will go- It's true. Even you, you were very weary to say, I have a patient who's sick, but I don't want to prescribe off label because it puts your license at risk.

But that's a travesty because that patient needs help. And we shouldn't have to look over our shoulder. I remember this was during COVID. I had written a prescription for an indication for ivermectin for something. This was before I was all crazy. And I got a letter saying that if I ever did this again, that it would affect my license. Addressed to the horse pace doc. But also this person, we test for parasites all the time. There was an indication, but whatever, they didn't care whether I'd put that indication or not.

They shut us down as a pharmacy. They sent us a letter saying they would revoke our pharmacy license in the state of Texas. But as a clinician- If we ship one more prescription of ivermectin, that they would shut down our pharmacy. I can ship ketamine. I'm not allowed to ship ivermectin. If you ship me ivermectin by the horse though, right? I have a few. But can you imagine as a provider being restricted, being told that- It's crazy. That I can't write a script for- That can help someone.

But they don't know what I'm treating. We treat parasites all the time. And it was just, it's terrifying. Because providers, clinicians, we spend our lives dedicated to be able to care for people. Talking about experimental forward-thinking stuff, getting into some fun things. What are the most exciting interventions that you've come across recently? Some of the most experimental things that you've been playing around with? Oh man. I mean, we were just talking about plasmapheresis. That's an interesting one just because there's all sorts of different blood and plasma filtration protocols that people are turning to for- microplastics, for lipid management, for mold.

Can you explain the plasma theresis? I did, by the way. It's like, yeah, like literally like pulling your blood out, filtering the plasma, replacing typically with either albumin, or in some cases, like actual human plasma, or like Brigham has this soup of like stem cells, and exosomes, and all sorts of cool stuff that you can get put in. And so the idea is it's like an oil change for the body. And, you know, there's even places like in Mexico and Europe that will do blood filtration, not just plasma, different filtration mediums that are designed for different purposes.

Like there's a heparin-based filter that is designed for spike protein, right? Like a sticky fly trap for spike protein for something like long COVID. There's another one called the marker filter that is for microplastics. That's a specific filtration medium for that. So that's one that a lot of people are like electively doing out of pocket. A lot of times internationally, like TPE, like you can literally do that at Brigham's Clinic. Like you can do a basic plasma theresis very easily, depending on how many times you're squeezing the little rubber ball that you get to hold to, you know, four or five hours, but you're just basically sitting in a chair.

And then the problem with that though is like when, that was what I was alluding to earlier, when a guy like Joe posts that, immediately it's like, this is my moment for these clinicians. And they just tag his video and throw it up. And they're trying to just riff and like coast off of the momentum that he created for it, debunking it, right? And this is where I get, it's like, you're an academic. You're now trying to debunk a placebo-controlled randomized trial. Like at what point do we like pick a side?

Do you believe in randomized control trial or do you not, you know? So presumably they're saying that they have contrary data to the first randomized control trial? Well, his main thing is there's only one major study that demonstrated this and the rest is anecdotal, but they've used plasma theresis in hospital systems for decades. So plasma theresis, so plasma is where they believe that the antibodies, so for example, if someone has a reaction to something within their body, depending on what the disease is, it exists within the plasma.

It's concentrated somehow. Again, I'm not an immunologist, but to the best of my knowledge within this plasma, it's also where toxins and all this other stuff live that say wouldn't be able to be excreted by the body through urine or feces or sweat naturally. So plasma theresis is used in hospitals to this day where they use it for things that are, you know, extreme, kind of immune. Anyone who's been exposed to a level of mold and toxins. A real world example too would be again, Jelly Roll, like I hate to keep saying it, but he, because he lost so much weight, he was chronically inflamed, even though we were doing a ton of things to bring down his inflammation.

All of that weight loss, you can only sweat it out so much. You can only excrete it so many ways. It ends up putting a major load on the kidneys and the liver. And a lot of it back to like the glass face. And then it started impacting his sleep. And then as soon as we run him through plasma theresis, he calls me, he's like, Bubba, whatever the hell y'all just did, I have not slept this great in years. Yeah, people talk about like a sauna for, you know, do the natural version, just sweat it out.

But I mean, if you look at the size of a microplastic, they range like the unit of measurement is a Dalton. And so the size of a microplastic ranges anywhere from like slightly under a hundred to up to a thousand Daltons and what a sweat gland can actually pass through is like a hundred Daltons. So arguably maybe one 10th of the microplastic exposure that you have, you can actually sweat out in a sauna. And considering that most of the microplastics, for example, in the food supply, like a plastic packaging you're drinking out of a cup in Starbucks are way larger than a hundred Daltons.

You just can't get rid of that in the sauna. Like it's an inconvenient truth, but if it's getting into your body at this point, it's pretty difficult to remove it. There are some gut binders. There's probably like 10 different supplement companies. Like Avacol and stuff like that. Yeah, just over the past few months, people have been like mailing me whatever, like a sulforaphane based compound for microplastic removal or some other like binding stack that supposedly removes it from the gut and possibly via some sort of osmotic gradient from the tissue as well.

But none of those are that proven. And so that's an example of like, well, at some point, you just got to filter it out. The problem with that is it's a long and expensive protocol that not everybody's going to do. But eventually maybe there will be a way to democratize it. We've seen that with a lot of medical treatment. That's the goal with all of this is to make it affordable for the masses. And I think the biggest thing I've seen is- I think we should on Shark Tank, like to suck it and just pull everything out.

Wait, what is that? I've never seen that. How long does it take your body to replace the plasma? Because I think this is one of the concerns. You've got this period of time. You've gotten rid of all of this plasma. What you need it. Well, what you'll do is we'll add back in albumin. And so you immediately- At the same time. Yeah, you immediately have that replenishment. The big critique is, or what people have tried to critique is there's a drop in your immune system. But the truth is that drop is for 24 hours.

So we were just talking to one of your buddies and he just did it, but then he got on a flight. I was like, ooh man, I would not have done that. And what happened? Did he get sick? He felt run down and not great. There's also the risk of the catheter, depending on where that is placed, having like a rupture or an issue. But you have a compromised immune system for 24 hours. So that is a legitimate risk. And this is again, anything in medicine, you have that discussion.

You make sure you tell that patient for the next 24 hours, you will have a compromised immune system. And then after that, your immune response is boosted. And all of that inflammation that was in your plasma is removed. And all of those shock proteins and all these different things that are causing so many issues, we're basically taking out the trash and replacing years and years of inflammation and gunk with albumin, young, clean albumin. What's albumin? It's literally a, yeah, it's just a protein that instead of- Same thing about egg white.

Egg white has a ton of albumin in it. It's just basically- Putting egg white. Yeah, just get it. Yeah, I mean, very, very similar, yeah. Okay. What are the strongest longevity interventions that are cost-free? Because much of this stuff sounds maybe difficult to access. People are outside of the country. So yeah, epidemiologically, yes. Lifting, grip strength is often identified as a metric, but it's not because people who have like big meaty hands live longer. It's because people who lift heavy objects and do some type of manual labor or artificial manual labor inside of a gym tend to have high grip strength as a byproduct of that.

So you're not going to live longer by having like a hand grip dynamometer in your car that you're squeezing all the time. It'll make a little bit of a difference, but physical activity that exhausts the grip would be one. VO2 max is another. And I think the misperception is that you need to do like these like fancy Norwegian four by four protocols to significantly increase VO2 max, meaning like four minutes maximum sustainable pace, balls to the wall, four minute recovery, four times through as a sample prescribed protocol for VO2 max.

I mean, just yesterday, there was a study that came out that showed that small bursts, anywhere from three to five times a week of 10 to 20 seconds had an impact on VO2 max. So these are like tiny bursts, like on an air dyne, just quick sprints. You think VO2 max and muscle mass is more important when it comes to training for longevity? If you could pick one. I would choose, if I had to pick one, I would choose muscle mass because I think low muscle mass, I'm not just saying this because Gabriel's sitting next to me.

I can't come out of the table. Put you at a higher risk for frailty. And I think frailty is one of the, like not being able to outrun a lion is less likely to kill you than like stepping off a curb and being frail. Like with the VO2 max equation, like joking aside, yes, VO2 max can have a significant impact on cardiovascular health, but you can get pretty good cardiovascular health, including blood pressure management with strength training. So if I had to choose one, it's an unrealistic scenario anyways, based on how easy it is to do VO2 max.

You do both. And then the last one that I would name is like a free intervention. If we're not going to talk about like Harvard's longest running study on longevity, on happiness, relationships, love, all of that. Have a friend. Boring, esoteric stuff aside, I would be walking speed. Yes, 7,000 to 8,000 steps a day is advisable, but the actual speed of walking, the pace, like the actual cadence of the walking is important. So VO2 max, grip strength, and walking speed. What would be the three that I would choose?

I don't remember the actual like pace based on whatever you would measure. Quicker than you might think, like six seconds. The way I think about it is like walk slightly faster than what your brain wants to do. There was, I don't know if it's still available, a device called a counter pace, like a heart rate strap that you could wear that tied to ear pods that tracks your heart rate and then helps you maintain a cadence that matches that heart rate so that your foot strike is occurring during the diastolic phase of heart pumping.

So you're essentially like teaching your heart how to pump with each step. So that's very similar like counter pulsation therapy they would do at a hospital for like post heart attack. But the idea is just like when you're walking, it's like residents breathing, but residents walking. Kind of like that, yeah. Up and down with the breath, but this is your step and step with the heartbeat. That's fine. Okay. Those would be three. I think if you were to look at the VO2 max versus muscle mass thing, if you were to say somebody is a five out of 10 on both, where would you start?

Because it seems to me that the muscle mass thing is largely talking about being protective in later life, frailty, falls, hip replacements, stuff like that. Diabolic health. Yeah. Immune health. Coming from the background of being such a bro, VO2 max was never anything that anybody really considered. And it seems like that's really had the ascendancy recently. And it gets chased a lot as a number. It's largely reflective of cardiovascular health. I mean, it's definitely like if you're competing as like Ironman marathon or swimmer or whatever, like VO2 max is important as a performance metric.

But the reason that it tracks with longevity is not necessarily because maximum oxygen utilization is going to help you live longer. At least, I don't think that. I think it's because it's reflective of overall cardiovascular health in the same way that grip strength, having strong hands, I can hold onto something for a long period of time isn't gonna make you live longer. But what you got you those strong hands is- Everything Ben's saying is like that's, when I, again, go back to what you do, what we do, comparing it to traditional medicine, somebody comes in, the first thing we do is comprehensive blood work.

That's one tool in the one assessment, but we also run them through a DEXA. And then we do a VO2 max, a walking VO2 max to assess their cardiovascular condition. You give me those three things, I put it into the AI algorithm. I cross-reference all of that. And we begin to model out all cause mortality. And I can begin to project if you're headed towards a chronic disease. So like in traditional medicine, somebody shows up sick, you write them a pill. Somebody gets it, you mask the symptom.

And it's like, but why aren't we just practicing proactive predictive medicine? Like what you're doing in your practice, you can prevent 1.7 million Americans are dying every year of chronic disease. That's more than every war we've ever fought in the history of America in a year. And it's all preventable. But it's not longevity. And I wish there was another name for it because the reality is, and I think- I think it's health span. I think it's muscle span, but yeah, health span. But I think, you know, as a geriatrician, which means I've taken care of a lot of dying people, that there is a one harsh reality, and that is nobody gets out alive, no one.

And so is this, you know, increase in longevity just a distraction from the end result, which is that we will all die. And at some point we have to recognize that it's going to happen. It is how we live within that timeframe. And, you know, maybe there's a genetic push past 85. We don't know. Genetics play a role. We know some people that smoke and eat tacos and live to be 105. So yes, being strong, being capable, not restricting protein. I know that you had a guest that was talking about protein restriction.

That's not where I would say the- Not a lot of people need to hear that right now. But on a- My argument is always if we can buy you time. I would say if we can buy your health span time, that keep you healthy longer. There are folks like David Sinclair, my buddy, Dr. Ian White. Ian's 22 years stem cell research at Harvard at the bench. Yeah, those are interesting. And what he'll break down is pretty crazy. And this is why I have dinosaurs and jellyfish at our clinic.

I was wondering about that. He literally breaks down that we share a common ancestor with every species on earth. We share DNA with the eternal jellyfish. Within us is a black box code. And there are companies in Texas right now that are doing gene activation. And we can literally inject you with a virus that will go turn on a gene that has been turned off, right? We can tell your body to put on more muscle. We can turn on a gene that can increase bone mineral density eightfold.

These things exist today. And so my only thing getting more into the biohacking woo-woo like futuristic- I'm not going there. Can we buy you time? Can we through common practice, not the woo-woos, to do just good old bread and butter, smart medicine, buy you health span until one of these brilliant people crack the code of how do we turn on that gene? How do we turn on the jellyfish gene? The jellyfish gene where we all live for 150 years floating in water, glowing in the dark.

Aging is not abnormal. The idea that we're not gonna age. I mean, aging is normal, but the chronic disease, that's not normal. That's not a normal part of aging. And we've come to normalize all of that. And that's a problem. So if we stop stigmatizing testosterone and allow us to replace the things that we need, then- Yeah. Well, perhaps there's a through line here because if you down-regulate fertility enough and don't have children, that might be a viable life extension strategy, sending a message to your lizard brain that you better stick around as long as possible because you have no progeny.

So once you're gone, game's over. You gotta hold on. So yeah, basically, yeah, I would say the most significantly, potentially significantly impactful life extension strategy- Not having kids. Don't jerk off. Don't have kids. Okay. What do you make about the criticism? So Dr. Daniel Lieberman, who came on the show and I asked him about what's he think the current recommendations coming out of, I guess, our side of the world, around one gram per pound, one gram per kilo to one gram per pound of body weight.

protein and he just sort of looked at me like, I think it's overblown. I don't think that people need that much. It doesn't really seem to make that much sense to me from a longevity standpoint. It doesn't seem to be that much evidence. I've looked at every big diet on the planet. That's interesting. He wasn't invited to the protein working group, which was all the hundred finest scientists, protein scientists, and they disagreed on some things and they agreed on others. I don't know this gentleman, so it's not a knock to him, but in this room, these were the finest protein researchers from all over.

Would that not mean that they're kind of biased? No, they don't all get along. Some of them are low protein researchers. Well, yes, they are all the protein experts. Some agree on 1.1. I mean, they're all over the place. What they do is they present the evidence to the best of their ability, all the evidence that have been done. What they came up with is that there is no evidence that going below the minimum requirement has benefit at all. Going below 0.55 grams per pound? They argued, is 1.1 better than 1.4?

Potentially, is anything better than 1.6 grams? No, no one agreed that, so that's not 1 gram per pound. What about protein cycling, though? The idea from an autophagy standpoint of a fasting-mimicking diet on a quarterly basis or a period of protein restriction to stimulate or stimulate autophagy, and then most of the time, you're actually eating what are the 0.8 to 1.2 grams per pound? To be clear, I was not invited there as a guest researcher, but I was there interviewing these guys. One of the things that was interesting is that in terms of human trials, it seems as though the sweet spot for aging and optimal health, to find that as you will, is closer to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg.

It's not 1 gram per pound, which is what I recommend. It's slightly below that. What you're talking about is this idea of protein cycling. The body turns over 250 to 300 grams of protein a day. As we age, we become less efficient at that, liver turnover, all of this stuff. As we age, if we then begin to restrict protein, this is not moving in a positive direction. There's no aging data in humans that would suggest that that would be beneficial. Is his argument that we're over-consuming protein?

The data doesn't support that. I was going to say, because I feel like everyone I know doesn't. I think he was making an epidemiological case. If I know the Lieberman you're talking about, that you don't come across a lot of long-lived cultures who are feeding at the levels that are currently recommended by a kook like this. I like to keep it simple stupid, because my brain's not smart enough to figure all this out. I did give you my book, which has pictures. Reagan tried to color them in.

I thought it was a coloring book. To be fair, the Forever Strong playbook, I will give it a plug. It took me two years to write, and it has pictures to make it simple and stupid. It's digestible. I love it. My main thought- He actually ate it. I've learned in my life, if I prioritize protein, it is a caloric, dense, nutrient-rich aspect of my diet. I will eat less of the ultra-processed, less of all the bad things. Anecdotally, I'm not saying there's no science behind what I'm saying.

I'm just looking at it going, if I prioritize protein, it fills my appetite. It's hard to overeat. If I eat a steak, I'm done. Would he not see a value in prioritizing protein first as part of your diet? You're arguing for the benefits of protein intake as a calorie restriction mechanism. Yes. I imagine he would do too. I think my question was something like, what do you think about one gram per pound of body weight? It's on the higher end, yeah. That seems to be more than is necessary.

I would agree with that statement. That is more than is necessary. It depends. I have 18-year-old sons, and they're probably hitting 1.4 to 1.5 grams per pound right now based on my grocery bills. They're also highly anabolic. They're growing like weeds. They're lifting every day. It's pretty population specific. That is exactly what they came to in the summit. What about fiber? I've been pretty good at licking my finger, putting it in the air, and working out what way the wind's blowing. I think the protein thing everyone could see a little while ago.

Creatine, I was early on creatine. I was early on water quality. I think air quality, stuff like jasper and mold, I think that's going to be a huge thing. Next after that, I think it's going to be light. Light quality and light pollution, I think. It's slowly trickling through the echelons of health. Fiber, to me, seems to be just about taking that. It's at the hockey stick moment here. I get the sense that protein and fiber are going to be a little antagonistic to each other when it comes to designing a diet.

I'm interested in what you guys think when it comes to fiber, optimizing gut health. Everyone gives a fuck about bloating and digestion and leaky gut. That's exactly it. I don't think that high protein intake necessarily rules out fiber, but what you were just saying is the one thing that flies under the radar. Yes, fiber is beneficial for everything from glycemic variability to bowel movements to the microbiome and the fact that it's often a food for probiotics leading to postbiotic production. The issue is the large number of the population that has issues like small intestine bacterial overgrowth or diverticulitis or some form of IBS or an issue that results in them hearing that the giant ass kale salads are a really good idea and that they should put a bunch of spinach in their smoothies and it just totally Fs them over and they're painting the back of the toilet seat.

I think that it depends, again, on what the gut biome looks like and what someone's, especially like the gas production by specific bacteria in the gut looks like before you decide what kind of fiber someone should be on or the fermentable nature of that fiber like inulin and chicory root and shit like that completely screws some people over as far as gas and bloating. And then for other people, it's great gut food. It feels like fiber is much more individually variable. You could probably look at most people and say, yeah, if you had like one gram per kilo of body weight of protein, you'd probably be all right.

Whereas, yeah, if you threw a bunch of oxalates at one person from spinach that's not being cooked, they're going to have a very different response to somebody else who doesn't have that kind of gut microflora. Yeah, I think that is a frontier that we don't know enough about. My prediction is the food matrix conversation is next. The bro bodybuilding sphere, we're great. There's, I guess I would include myself in there. Boiled chicken, egg whites, we know what the protein is. We know the macros, rice, chicken.

But what we don't know is how, for example, there was a study that came out on high-fat dairy. We don't actually understand how the fat in dairy, the compounds, then work with the protein and the carbohydrates within that food matrix. It's not repeatable. It's not supplementation. It is within the dynamic of, say, for example, a steak. Yes, has protein. Yes, has B vitamins, but it has anserine, taurine. It has these other, what you imagine as a phytonutrient in plant. It has its own carnate nutrient, and it's how those all fit together.

We don't really know how the foods all work together. Is it possible for you guys to give general advice when it comes to fiber and eating for gut health through a diet? Because it seems, again, this fingerprint, each person's flora is slightly different. We can say, hey, one gram per kilo of body weight protein, that's probably a good baseline. Can you give me equivalent baselines when it comes to fiber intake for humans who just want to have good digestion? Well, I can cheat here because I'm a doctor, so we test.

We don't guess. We do stool tests. We do breath tests. We do tests. If you have small intestinal bacteria overgrowth, we would treat that. We would put you on a diet that was essentially low FODMAP. There's ways that you can experiment, but also test, so you're guessing less. Low FODMAP isn't necessarily synonymous with low fiber, but you're literally limiting fructans, oligosaccharides, disaccharides. What else? Monosaccharides and polyols. These are specific compounds that if you were to Google high FODMAP diet, you would want to avoid because those are sources of fiber that would cause gas and bloating, but that doesn't mean that you can't eat fiber at all.

On a low FODMAP diet, you can do chia seed slurry. Put a bunch of chia seeds in water, soak them, have that as a pudding. A lot of times, seeds and nuts, the fiber in the skin and nose, that would also be acceptable, but then apples, pears, garlic, onions, all that stuff would be out, and in some cases, mixed greens, romaine lettuce, a lot of things you put in a salad, those are fine. Kale, it depends because then there's the whole thing you brought up, which is oxalate sensitivity and issues.

Gabriel makes a great point. We now live in an era where you could get a Genova diagnostic stool test. You could get a TrioSmart SIBO breath test and see if you're reactive to certain fiber-based foods. Those tests are not that expensive. What you could say is have 40 grams of fiber a day or more, and if you have gas or bloating when you start doing that, go get tested to figure out what's causing the gas and bloating. Yeah, we always say yes, but. We'll say yes, but.

Yes, this is a good rule of thumb, but there's always outliers. Everybody's different. Personalized medicine should take a personalized touch. To do that, it requires the analytics and the data to have the knowledge of you specifically, and you're a unique individual, so let's look at you as a unique individual and tailor a unique program. It sounds like almost that's what you are both saying. This is why people feel overwhelmed by health in the modern world because they're like, oh, well, I've got to go and get this fucking special fingerprint thing done, and I don't know where to go, or maybe I'm in a country that can't provide it, or maybe I'm going to have to pay out of pocket, and I can't afford it, and then I've got to do it, and then I've got to adjust all that stuff.

Yeah. There are workarounds, and there are levels. For example, with what we're talking about with the FODMAP and the SIBO issue, there's an at-home breath-testing device called a food marble, and it gets a pretty decent corollary. It's not as good as a more expensive lab-based test, but it can help you to keep track of primarily the fiber-based foods that would cause something like bloating. The other thing is just simple food elimination, right? Yeah, there's always an answer. This is the old-school tactic for, well, let's cut everything out.

Let's start from scratch, and you're going to have steak, and chicken, and fish, and maybe some sweet potato mash, kind of like a paleo-esque type of approach, and then you could start to add in some grain, some dairy, some different forms of fiber, and you're going to get to the point where you can identify within four weeks. You use an app, right, to track, and say, what was it that I added in? You can use an app. I mean, you can easily use a clod or GPT model now to literally say, okay, here's everything I ate.

Here's my gas and bloating symptoms, and within four weeks, you're going to get a pretty good map of the culprits. It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective, and we live in the information overload, and that's the disease. The disease is distraction. We can fully simplify. People know what works well for them. If they don't, they can track it, but you eliminate, you keep it simple, and you add things in slowly. I think we overcomplicate it. Yeah, that's what we were saying. That's kind of where I was going with the protein, as I say, don't let perfection get in the way of progress, and it's baby steps.

You don't have to be perfect. Just be better. Make slightly better choices. Test things out. You're not going to die if you try a fiber, and it doesn't work out for you, and you're bloated and have stomach upset for a few days. There was a pear bezoar. Someone ate, it was something like 300 pears, and they actually got a, you know, the hair ball of a, it's actually called a pear bezoar, and it created a small bowel obstruction. Who the fuck eats 300 pears? I think 300 anything is going to cause a small bowel obstruction.

I could easily do 300 blueberries, too. I was looking at fiber maxing, and this is what I found. I will take on the small bowel obstruction challenge. I could make it happen. Do you guys follow a specific diet? Yeah, it's called the Forever Strong Playbook. What is it? No, no. It's a higher protein diet. I don't eat a ton of processed food at all. Prioritize protein. We make it very simple. I have two crazy kids. It's all whole foods. What about grains, dairy, a lot of the stuff that people avoid?

We eat dairy, and I think we're starting to see that it has protective effects. We do high-fat dairy, fermented foods. The one thing that we don't eat is a ton of packaged, processed foods, aside from beef sticks, but it's sweet potato. We'll eat rice. I'm not a low-carb person. Yeah. It sounds very like Weston A. Price-ish, where grains aren't eliminated, but they need to be fermented or soaked or sprouted. Dairy is the full-fat varietal, good meats, fermented vegetables. Where do you come into land now, Ben?

Obviously, you've experimented. I'm pretty close to a paleo diet with a lot of fermented vegetables. Most of my carbohydrates are underground storage organs like sweet potato, yam, purple potato, berries, and honey. Most of my vegetables are kimchi, sauerkraut, and then a lot of hunted wild game meat, super clean fish that is farmed, not wild-caught, so I know the exact sourcing and that it's clean, what has been fed, steak, chicken, poultry, or pastured pork. My dessert is typically coconut yogurt. I go through that. What's it called?

Coco June? So good. Oh, my gosh. That's the brand? Oh, it's so good. Coco June, blueberries, dark chocolate is not only my dessert, but I've eaten twice today, and that was my meal, was just Coco June, blueberries, dark chocolate. And then a little bit of nuts, like macadamia nuts, Brazil nuts, and that's pretty much it, besides all the peptides. Where are you getting your fish from? A company called Sea-Topia. They've got 30-plus different farms around the world, and they very tightly control what the fish is fed.

They are tested for things like microplastics, parasites, and then they flash-freeze and ship to your house, and they've got a pretty good varietal, just like hurricane salmon and halibut, some shellfish, scallops, and it's... It's the cleanest stuff I could find. What was that steak company that you And I hope they've got a check in the mail now to me. The steak place. That was insane. Okay, so this crazy breed of cattle that originates from the Middle East. Yes, fucking rules. Shout out. No more Piedmontese. Not Piedmontese, kind of.

So this breed of cattle originated from the Middle East and A, they have the Milestat and Knockout gene, meaning they've got this like unparalleled muscle growth, big Arnold Schwarzenegger-esque cows. The result of that is that the muscle fiber thickness is like 1 16th the diameter of a normal like Angus cow. So it's super digestible, like a medium rare is like 95 degrees. That's how fast it cooks. But then these cattle have also developed based on their origination, sweat glands, which is also something that is less common, but one of the key contributors to off-flavored or tough meat in general, whether it's hunted meat or farmed meat or anything else- Sweaty cows.

I have no idea. It's cortisol. So cortisol upregulation causes calcium influx, basically the effects of like chronic rigor mortis, but a cow that can manage thermal stress eliminates one of the most common sources of cortisol in cattle, which is like being subjected to extremes of heat or cold and being unable to deal with it. These cows wound up in Canada. There was like a Canadian farmer up North on the West side who had like one bull and three cows. A guy, a horse farmer in Washington State connected with these folks in Canada like 30 years ago.

This better be the best- Shipped some across the board. This is like the Adam and Eve of the cow world. A year and a half ago, I get an Instagram message from this farm by Spokane and they're like, we have the only 100% pure Piedmontese beef in all of North America. And you can only find this stuff now in Italy and the Middle East. So it hasn't been bred with Angus, so a lot of the Piedmontese is like 75, 25 or 50, 50. So then I actually went to the farm.

Long story short is I'm like, well, is it grass-fed, grass-finished? They're like, no, it's like grass-fed, acorn-fed, breast-frying, grape-skin-fed, carrots, customized from birth. And so long story short is I got a whole steer and these things are massive. I got it like almost two years ago and I am still, or they stored all the farm and then they shipped to me. So I'm still ordering off this spreadsheet. Like me and my wife and 18 year old sons have still not eaten this whole cow. It's like a time share for food.

That's the meat. It is the weirdest meat. He drop shipped me some and now I knew. I tried to taste it. I have a problem with it because it's so lean. They butchered it. And I'm like, I would love to have some of the tallow because tallow is great to cook with and do your potatoes with. They're like, dude, there is no tallow. These things are so lean that they're just like no dripping, no fat whatsoever. So when you cook it, I actually use a lot of extra like olive oil, tallow, extra fat because I think the flavor profile when you don't have the fat is just still a little bit too lean.

But yeah, that's the steak. So wait a second. It's called Monzo. So the listener or the watcher is thinking I'm never gonna get that cow. You know, I tried to get some of this meat. I couldn't get it. I talked to the founder. I'm like, how many cows do you guys have? I'm like, oh, it goes to the professional food collars. They do a lot of like NHL NFL, yeah. They do. Okay, but for the other people there are meal delivery services. I use one that's only in Texas and Oregon and Denver.

And they use, there's this company, gosh, what are they? Not Piedmontese. What is it? Grazing. There's another one. Well, anyway. I don't know. Do the delivery drivers have sweat glands though? But I just say that for someone who's listening. So anyway, there is a company and it's called MyFit Foods and they're available in Texas. They use grass fed, grass finished. It's for those of us that can't get the crazy cows. What about beans? I haven't heard you say anything about beans in your diet. They have beans in it.

Beans do not agree with me. So I don't want to talk about those. No, it is interesting because you see that the whole Blue Zones data, which is rife with birth record issues and falsified data. But I think you could make a case that legumes and beans in general do provide good fermentable substrate for the microbiome. It's just that in many people, including myself, those bacteria produce massive amounts of gas. I'm not a chili guy. I don't know about you guys. I love chili. I don't know whether it loves me, but I absolutely love it.

So why the fiber? Why are you interested in fiber right now? I just have this prediction, seeing what's happening with probiotic fiber at the moment, Ollipop, Poppy, Bloom Pop, that whole world, looking at what happened with AG1, with companies like Seed, with David Beckham's new thing, IMA, like everybody is, if you want to sell shit to women, put bloating on the front of a piece of packaging. Every woman's worried about bloating. How much of this is just artificial solution to artificial problem? Tons of high calorie, highly processed foods, sugar, fermented foods.

Maybe there's some EPG in there or some other bullshit going on. Like whatever it is that's happening, it's causing people to feel digestively off. And now they're looking for what the solution is. We've already been through the protein revolution, creating revolutions happening now. I already know. I think people are now buying more fiber supplements than protein supplements. That was a- Paradoxically, fiber contributes to a lot of the issues that you just described. And I think the elephant in the room is that one of the primary causes of all of that gas and bloating is lack of digestive enzyme production and slowed gastric emptying.

And most of the things that happen when you eat quickly or in a stressed out state, which basically defines a lot of our culture's eating habits. So I think that slow eating and eating in a parasympathetic state would be way better for people's gas and bloating than sucking down a bottle of inulin. Did you see that study that came out recently looking at people's eating speed in the GLP-1, endogenous GLP-1 release? Did you see this? Can you explain it? Yeah, so the body releases GLP-1 naturally.

Typically it rides, and I didn't see this study particularly, but it rides with protein. So once you get a protein bolus, it should release GLP-1. It should be very short-lived, and you should be done. Protein increases satiety through this mechanism. Also, I believe that there's some fat, but the faster you eat, the faster it gets there. I'm assuming that the GLP-1 would have less. Yeah, so graying more slowly meant that you got a higher release of GLP-1, which meant that you were more satisfied more quickly.

Satisfied more, but the question is how long does that, yeah, how long does that last? That would not be comparable to a long half-life of a GLP-1. Yeah. All I know is that if you look at digestive enzyme production and you look at vasoconstriction, lack of blood flow to the gut, slowed gastric emptying, it is better for you to not suck down your superfood smoothie while you're driving 60 miles an hour down the highway on your way to work, and I'd rather just see someone fast or wait until they can actually be in a parasympathetic state to eat.

What's the current data around fasting? Because it seems to have been bunked and re-bunked so many times. Autophagy, maybe it does work, maybe it doesn't work. Yeah. Is it just calorie restriction? Is it an easier route to calorie restriction? Is there something super special about 16 eights or? So the basic idea is that when you go head-to-head, something like an intermittent fasting study with overall calorie restriction, there is no big winner. There's nothing magic about fasting that beats out just like shoving fewer calories into your gaping maw.

The advantage is that with a compressed feeding window, it becomes more difficult to eat excess calories. And that's mostly the case until you get past about the 18-hour mark of fasting. Past the 18-hour mark, that's when you start to see cellular autophagy and a lot of these longevity mechanisms kick in that could make the case for an occasional longer fast. Obviously, like activity level and what kind of anabolic phase of life that you're in, et cetera, would dictate that. But my recommendation to most men is like a 12 to 16-hour overnight intermittent fast.

And every once in a while, go longer than 18 hours, like a 24-hour dinner time to dinner time fast, like once a month, for example. And then back to that protein cycling, protein restriction thing, something like a quarterly fasting mimicking diet, right? Where you're slightly underfeeding protein, slightly underfeeding calories, but it's just for a few days to simulate like a famine type of scenario. Yeah, and then the reason I said for men is for pre-menopausal women, regularly fasting for longer than 12 hours may have an impact on cispeptin, which is upstream of LH and FSH, which are fertility-related hormones.

And so women closer to the 12-hour mark, guys close to 12 to 16 hours, post-menopausal women would be closer to the 12 to 16-hour mark. But that's basically the way that I do fasting, is 12 to 16 hours, intermittent fast daily, quarterly fasting mimicking diet, about once a month, 24-hour dinner to dinner. So you're saying there is something special in the autophagy, in the cell clearance, intermittent versus grazing and just restriction? Once you get past 18 hours, but in most cases, the definition of intermittent fasting is not these like long one to three-day fasts.

Intermittent fasting is typically like a daily compressed feeding window, and usually it tops out at around 16 hours. But you think there is some special source in a 24-hour fast? There is occasionally, you just have to balance like the anabolic, catabolic scenario with that. Yeah, there's other ways to do it. Through training, there's different mechanisms. Yeah, exactly, training sauna, cold, thermal stress. Yeah, there's other ways. And so if you are somebody who is at risk of frailty, or you're just trying to eat yogurt or whatever.

No one who's at risk of frailty listens to this podcast. Yeah, true, my mom does. She's not at risk of frailty? I gave your mom. What, talking about longevity tests, you know, we're looking at the things that people should be paying attention to. Where do you think people are wasting money or effort or time the most, either on diagnostic or intervention side things for health more generally? Like, is there a particular type of test that's widely regarded that people think is bullshit? And what do you reckon?

Hmm, I mean, there's ones that like we even do, but it just gives you more knowledge, like the MTFHR, but you can do that through process of analysis, of elimination, like you had said, like cutting, adapting which supplements you take and using methylated supplements. There's, is it a necessity? No, if you could just do that through process of elimination and save money. I think, and this might be a little bit of a contrarian stance, but I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed right now on cardiovascular risk potential based on either a cardiovascular risk score, right?

Do you have high blood pressure, smoking history, family history of cardiovascular disease, et cetera? And what does your lipid panel look like, right? Not just like the basic stuff, like LDL, HDL, triglycerides, LP little A, Applebee. The issue is that that can be a clue, but definitely not a telltale sign of actual plaque deposition in the heart. And I am increasingly convinced after seeing so many people come back from their CCTAs, like an angiography of the heart, like a CT scan, usually with AI-based diagnostic imaging, clearly, to actually show, yes, where hard, more stable, hard plaque, which you would typically see in more of like an athletic population who scarred up their heart a little bit, or unstable, more likely to break loose plaque, resulting in a stroke or a heart attack, lies, right?

So the AI-based diagnostic imaging can tell you that. And the reason that's important is because in many cases, people, including myself, have a pretty good lipid panel, right? LDL, HDL, triglycerides, yada, yada, yada. But then you do the CT angiography and you actually see plaque deposition that if not monitored and addressed, either allopathically with like a low-dose statin or a PCSK9 inhibitor, or something like that. Allopathic, something similar. Exactly, or more non-traditionally, right? With enzymes like lumbrokinase, natokinase, there's a new cyclodextrin that's being trialed right now to actually break down the plaque.

You actually could be at risk and not even know it, or you could alternatively be on a statin or a path or whatever else due to high cholesterol and not even need it because you don't have any plaque deposition. So the idea of imaging for the heart, indirect answer to your question is like, I think myopically focusing on a lipid panel is either A, causing people to be prescribed a medication that they might not need, or B, telling them they're okay when in fact there can be significant plaque.

So you're saying rather than obsessing over lipid panel, you would just go and get a clearly statin? Anybody who has a history of heart exercise, anybody who has a family history of cardiovascular disease, I'm not a doctor, by the way, don't take this as medical advice. I think even like perimenopause, that the risk goes up significantly. We always get what you're saying. You should get it. I agree with it. CT angiography. So traditionally, which is really interesting, after men leave the pediatrician, there's no need for them to go to the doctor.

For example, women go to OBGYN, they get a gynecological exam, but men, they leave the, why would you have to go to the doctor? They don't really have a reason, which is a mistake. So getting a baseline testosterone, baseline cardiovascular testing is great, like your boy's age now, but then not necessarily treating with medication, having a baseline exam by 40, we recommend that you have a baseline heart scan, both hard and soft plaque. What would be the gold standard for that? A clearly scan. A clearly scan, yeah.

Dude, that fucking clearly thing. I'm gonna show you like cubic millimeters of natural plaque deposition. But now if you do that for muscle, so right now with the DEXA, I think this is where the future's going. Right now we look at a DEXA. DEXA compartmentalizes bone, body fat percentage, and then extrapolates lean body mass, but we don't look at muscle quality. You and I have talked about this a lot. We're not imaging routinely muscle quality. I believe they do it in Japan, whether through ultrasound or MRI where you see.

You get a case. You can visually see it if you get a treatment done, like a stem cell injection, if the doctor's using ultrasound, you can see the quality of the muscle somewhat, but it's not done for standard practice. That's a greater driver of, say, insulin resistance than body fat percentage. It's the fat that's in the muscle, and we don't image it. So you'd be looking at a whole body MRI rather than a dexa? Yes, yes. I mean, you look at a- You could sit still for an hour, there's not that many places.

No, there's gotta be other ways. There's a new one, did you see the water one? You sit in a, basically in a hot tub. I have Mind, who's developing it, the AI-based company is developing it, right? Yeah, I forget what it's called. It's MECO, is it them? I don't know quantifiably how well it does. Yeah, I just saw it. You literally step into water, and it uses frequency-based mechanisms to do some type of a digital signal that's similar to a full body MRI. But that's the future.

I'm telling you, that's the future of medicine. You still need a dexa. You still need to look at bone density, but looking at the quality of this tissue, I think is, you're gonna be able to correlate it with insulin resistance and disease outcomes. Surprising to me that clearly scans, for the people that, C-L-E-E-R-L-Y, that they're not more widely used when heart disease is like the number one killer of everybody. They're more expensive, they subject you, depending on the speed of the machine, to a somewhat significant amount of radiation.

Once again, it's fine. There's still holes in the process. Like, if you got a CT angiography in 2024, the software algorithm has changed six times since then. So, if you're running the same data through a 2026 software that's been updated, the data set is not necessarily gonna be similar. And most of the time, they're not running it through. Yeah, you have to request your raw data and run it back through an old data set. So, there's issues. But in general, even if it falls into the concierge-based medicine category, I think more people should be considering a scan like that.

Instead of just a lipid scan. Have you got any idea how much out-of-pocket it clearly would be? A grand, maybe? Yeah, I think it's around that. I mean, that's not cheap, but fuck. You don't need to get it done that much. Get it done 40 years old as a guy. Get a baseline. It's controversial. A lot of people will correlate. I've seen up to 97% accuracy claims a carotid intima-media thickness score with a CCTA, meaning using actual ultrasound to look at carotid plaque deposition. And based on data sets, correlate that to what you'd get from a CT angiography.

And that's like a five-minute scan on both sides of your neck. It's just, it's difficult to put a lot of, it is difficult to estimate how powerful that prediction is. But there are a lot of companies, unfortunately, in the CIMT space who claim that it's really close to CT angiography. But full-body MRI, which is very controversial, we recommend them. We recommend them. Full-body MRI, these are early detection screening tools. You'll hear physicians say, why would you screen for something? What are you gonna do about it?

Well, that's like saying, I don't wanna look under the covers. I'm just gonna hide, put my head in the sand. If there's an issue, you wanna find it early. It can freak you out, though. There are certain things. I have full arthritis, literally, from my cervical down to my lumbar spine. Then have someone else read it for you. Have someone else read it for you. But there's a lot of stuff that you can see, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you need surgery. No, no. I need to go get my spine operated on.

In my case, I do Stu McGill's Big Three, a hang for the inversion table every day. Shout out Stu McGill, dude. Do a lot of plank training, take care of my spine. I always have a giant water bottle behind me on an airplane, which helps a ton. I go relatively pain-free, but full-body MRI shows I'm super effed up. I have pain in my entire spine. So it can be scary for a lot of people. I think a lot of it, though, too, comes down to good clinicians having good conversations.

Same thing with the cancer screening. We can screen for 200 types of cancer at stage zero. We can tell you seven years in advance before you. So we use those, all that, do you use the Grail test? Yes, and then it's important to have the nuanced conversation and have the time. So traditional medicine will go, well, you don't need that. We will, you know. That is a mistake. But it's like, yeah. And we've seen, so I helped implement this with soldiers, with special operators, because they are exposed to so much stuff.

They have three-fold the risk. Yes, burn pit, you name it. What's that from? Being exposed to random particulates? Yes, also shooting guns. Yeah, all that gunpowder is getting absorbed. People don't think about it. So you're absorbing all that through your skin. And we've saved guys' lives because we were early enough in detection. And these are guys that you. Not to go back to microplastics, but this is a crazy one. I didn't realize this until we had this meeting with Ken Paxton here. And there's a woman advocate who's banging on the desk about little girls now start putting lip gloss on between ages six and eight.

The average American girl's putting lip gloss on between six and eight. It's flavored lip gloss. Moms and dads are buying it. Yeah, but it is loaded with microplastics. And so they're absorbing plastics. And the reason your lips are pink is you have more blood vessels in your lips. And so it's a higher absorption rate. And so little girls are absorbing crazy levels of microplastics through lip gloss. And like. We're here first, avoid lip gloss and don't eat after loading your meg. Ay, ay, ay, ay. Wow.

So surely someone's gonna come along and make a kid-friendly microplastic free. Hey, the shadow of the fucking million dollar, million dollar business. Minimal, they need to change the labeling of what they call all natural and like mandate that you disclose a risk profile. And so the Texas is looking at potentially reinforcing companies. But what we've learned with food is if you can get two or three big states to do it, it's so painful on the big corporations that they'll just change the label everywhere. Because they don't have to split all of the.

Correct. Do you think in future we might see kind of the same as in the UK? I don't know whether it's the same over here. Smoking packets have got almost 90% of it is taken up with some horrible artery. Like it's a warning label. Can you see the same thing happening maybe around other, around maybe microplastics or other contributing elements? You mean like a photo of just like teeny tiny testicles on a lip gloss bottle? It does contribute to infertility. Exactly, yeah, yeah. But that's one of the reasons why they think that infertility is increasing.

That's Shannon's point. Yeah, what was it? 97% or 99% of men have microplastics in their testicles. Oh, did you see where most of that came from though, that it was in the fucking gloves? Oh, if I get to teach all three of you. Wait, you mean the gloves being used in the study? So the big microplastics, the big micro, Jared pull it up. You've got it's hilarious. That's crazy. The big fucking microplastics study, just search microplastics gloves contamination. They were wearing fucking nitrile gloves. How is it that these gloves bend?

Why do they bend? Because tiny little bits of plastic are breaking off. So literally what happened was, we're sorry, the plastic gloves we were wearing got on the plastic detector of the microplastics study we were doing and contaminated the results. That's wild. There it is. Gloves may be skewed. This is March 29th, University of Michigan scientists may be unknowingly inflating microplastics pollution estimates and the surprising source could be their own lab gloves. University of Michigan study found common nitrile and latex gloves released tiny particles called steroids, which closely resemble microplastics and can contaminate samples during testing.

In some cases, this led to wildly exaggerated results, forcing researchers to track down the unexpected culprit. Don't fucking test me, dude. Oh my God. There's a lot of confusion and misperceptions in the microplastic industry. Like the sweat thing is one. The chewing gum is full of microplastics issue. The size of the microplastics in chewing gum actually is too large to be absorbed in the gut in most cases in significant amounts. So chewing gum is less of an issue. And then there's another one. What do you think of clothing?

Because everyone, there's a whole thing against Lululemon and stuff now too. Well, there was another big study a few weeks ago that actually compared like how much microplastic exposure do you actually decrease with certain lifestyle-based modifications, like your clothing, the type of packaging that you store your food in, your personal care products, which involves shampoo and conditioner, whatever, which is stored in plastic bottles. The number one contributor bar none was oral exposure via plastics in your food. So what you store your food in or the food that you buy in plastic is the number one contributor.

So if you're gonna do anything, like it's not swapping out your garbage bag. Like there's a lot of stuff that you can do. When you go to the grocery, almost everything is in plastic. And that's the problem. We live in a society that right now is pretty much engineered for you to get your food in plastic, even if it's healthy. But even a little level of awareness, because you talked about MyFit Foods. I used to use them 10 years ago. And I would, I was so dumb.

I would heat up the in the plastic. That's so funny. Like 10 years ago, I didn't know. I'd heat up my little pre-prep meal in the plastic in a microwave. Free microplastics. Wait, wait, I'm so glad you brought that up. Now I put it on a plate. So I pulled out, I asked them to pull me the data from was there BPAs in the containers or the cover? And there wasn't. They used some very expensive company to not have microplastics. So we're working at the moment.

I love their stuff. Inside every can, there's a plastic line. That's how you don't get stuff contaminated with the metal. However, you can use a biodegradable natural plant compound liner. So we're looking at how much it's gonna cost for us to line this with something else. Please do that, because I drink two of these a day. I know, I know, they're fucking awesome. However, leave it with me. Until you find out 10 years from now it's some edamame-based phytoestrogen. It's killing you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Slowly taking over your brain.

Castrating everyone with Nutonic, a bunch of smart people who can't have kids. God damn it. Yeah, I think this sort of current future that we've got moving toward with all of the different diagnostics, all of the different interventions, like it's, what do you think, if you were to make some of your predictions for where you think the attention is going to be in future, I think air quality is gonna be huge. That's just about coming online. I think light pollution, internally flicker, LED, stuff like that.

Is there anything else if you could? Social media. Anabolics. It's getting bigger and bigger. Anabolics. Okay, what do you mean social media? The use of social media. We have awareness, but I don't think we yet really understand how detrimental it is to children and development. Like being on technology and the level of technology that kids are exposed to is going to have some sort of major impact that we'll look back and go, wow, was that like the tobacco of our times? The smoking of teenagers in 2026.

Yeah, yeah. No one thought the idea that anabolics. What do you mean anabolics? The anabolic agents that they use in HIV and wasting that were used, like Nandrolone, things beyond testosterone, they're used in HIV and wasting. FDA approved, anabolic agents. I think it's gonna be. You mean that anabolic agents will become an increasingly popular treatment strategy for sarcopenia or? Yeah, there's a major study on Nandrolone and bone mineral density. You guys earlier were talking about free testosterone, one of the like little tricks that I think I learned from Larry.

There are cartilaginous receptors for growth hormone and it might be able to be used for actual cartilage repair as well. And then there's things like men who have an issue with free versus total, right? So you've got their total testosterone at an optimal level, but their free is suffering. A lot of times that's sex-binding goblin hormone. And so then if you add in a microdose of Anabar, it will literally like a Pac-Man gobble up the sex-binding goblin. That's interesting, yeah. Microdosing Anabar, let's go. Although. Spikes, they're free.

Yeah, although I have like, like the. There's a benefit. I think the elephant in the room with SHBG though is that sex hormone binding globulin is also something that increases in a state in which the body senses something like famine, starvation, stress, or any type of scenario in which it would be unwise to bring more humans into the world, right? And so. So people who are on like a strict ketogenic diet have high SHBG. People who are under a lot of cortisol load, high stress, they have high SHBG.

So in many cases, like it can be something as simple as just like, do like eat more carbs with dinner, sleep a little bit more, lower stress. Yeah, it goes up. What do you think about Nandrolone in older male populations as, like obviously you still keep them on a test sip but then micro dose or low dose Nandrolone. I think that that's gonna be the way of the future and we have to address it. And if we, and so we have a mutual friend, Dr. Larry Lipschultz, the godfather of male fertility.

Yeah, I've known him for, I don't know, 30 or 20 something years. He was the guy who developed the entire field. So you have like wings and an arrow. He's pretty amazing. He's been using peptides for literally like 20 years. He used to write for GQ magazine. But he's a heavily accredited academic at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. He's literally wrote the book on urology and he's just such a subject matter expert. He's the one who originally taught me and like helped me. I mean, I was literally 25% body fat doing CrossFit every day, trying to eat right, couldn't figure things out, felt like I was just run ragged.

And he optimized me to where all of a sudden I went from 25% to 7% without testosterone. He literally used HCG and clomiphene and was one of the first. And he's in his 80s. No, Andrew. Yeah, no, no. He's in his 80s, but that's the future. We have to address it. Whatever happened to GHRP2 and GHRP6 and ModGRF? Because I was fucking about with that 15 years ago. And I'm surprised when we're talking about, oh, we're gonna have a human growth hormone rather than going exogenous, trying to create some endogenous feedback loop.

Right, you mean like growth hormone secretagogues? Yes, yes. So GHRP2. I think better options came out and there was such a hunger surge too. There was a lot of, I don't wanna say- The fucking ghrelin release was a hack. Did you ever use it? Did you ever try it? Oh yeah, I know. And I would sweat. Did you ever try this? No, no. GHRP2. It wasn't MK677. This is an early- Growth hormone releasing hexapeptide and bipeptide. You know who prescribed me? It was Larry Lipschultz. And this was, again, like 15 years ago.

So we had to do this- I think the other peptides you were talking about, like tesomerone and ibuprofen, CJC 1295. A lot of those are what people are using now. Yeah, right. But are they mimicking the same sort of effects? Yeah, same pathway, but without all of the, like, yeah, with a lower side effect profile and the same- We used to shoot it when I was in university. The only way that you could use it was if you hit yourself with it. you were cooking because by the time that you would finish the meal you were like beyond ravenous because it's just dumping ghrelin and right like just over I mean it was overwhelming it was great if you're trying to put on weight right so what happened is it still used no it's transitioned out nobody really uses everything I think I think by the way you you mentioned light pollution yes and you said air pollution right yes yeah I think air quality and light quality are gonna be I think I think water and electricity are three and four I think okay so waters already been done electricity would mean non-native EMF such as Wi-Fi routers 5g square waveform signals at a higher intensity and things that may cause either actual thermal heating if very close to the body such as like cell phone radio frequency or low level up regulation of channels in cells are you that aggressive my house is pretty aggressive like everything is hardwired with metal shielded cables Ethernet there is no Wi-Fi every floor is grounded I mean at my house we pulled out all the stops in terms of circadian friendly lighting to address light pollution filter or scrubber Ben showed me the guy that came in to help you to buy it by your home dude what was his name Brian Hoyer right so this guy comes in looking like a dude out of fucking Ghostbusters he's like meters like when you get like more meters than you've ever seen in your life that measurable he was like dr.

octopus magnetic and electric all of this bullshit attached to his arms and he's going around like you know spring for poltergeists and stuff he's like I can see in the corner this is 5g in the corner we got to get rid of the 5g corner there was a murder here yeah one years ago yeah so oh you absolutely feel a difference and a lot of this stuff of course has that has the big fat woo bat signal on it because it is an inconvenient truth that there may be an effect on everything from the the neurochemical balance in cells based on low-level exposure to radiation or radio frequencies or EMF to the effect that it might have on something like negative ion load in the body which is why I'm a huge fan of the grounded floors or thing grounding going outside barefoot but I I don't think that there is a biological free cost to having a radio frequency device in your pocket as some bone scan data suggests might be an issue and sperm data or just sitting next to a somebody broke down isn't there in the phone itself in the iPhone itself somebody had covered this that it literally tells you you're supposed to keep it a certain distance you are yeah from your I think the best metric though like is if you eliminate that stuff and of course the single most important place to do it is your bedroom where your nervous system has a chance to arguably repair and recover for like eight hours for a 24-hour cycle but as many places in the home as you can downregulate exposure to that stuff I think it's a good idea it's right in the category with light water and air are you worried about eight sleep then I do not use an eight sleep for those reasons I'm not gonna piss them off because I know they're other a sponsor yeah okay I use a different one that that still cools my bed but that tests lower with an EMF meter right so okay at least from what I know although I prefer for my Ghostbusters talking to a bunch of friends they Faraday cage the cooling tower of their eight sleep you can do that and that's where most of the if you do the actual test yeah there's much less on the pad than on the controlling device itself so yeah so they just found a totally ten point give can you give a layman's explanation so a lot of people ionizing non-ionizing radiation Bluetooth I see that you're always with wide headphones stuff like that yeah what's the 30,000 foot view of the most defensible science behind EMFs exposure to like frequencies and stuff like class 3 Bluetooth signals which defines most of what we're using on our heads in our ears etc very little data showing that there's any deleterious effect at all so you're talking about that that is that is more like a I'm not sure so I'm gonna play a safe type of strategy for me to be using wired headphones Pascal's wager exactly the Pascal it's a it's a it's a technological Pascal wager for Wi-Fi for 5g for 4g the the biggest response to it from a from from an electrochemical balance in the cell standpoint is proximity to the source right so the farther you can be from a Wi-Fi router for example in your home or your office the better like your neighbors Wi-Fi signals if you've got your home totally tricked out and all your Faraday paint and cages or whatever is not that big of an issue because they're so far away but if you're sleeping with your head whatever one to two feet on the other side of the wall from the Wi-Fi router that's where there's a bigger issue the there are other things people worry about electric cars Tesla's are actually designed to be pretty low EMF there is a signal that exceeds the safety limit if you are in the backseat right next to the battery so if you like have a seat of a Tesla most of the rest of it is safe and I have a video online we went through and tested everything in the Tesla but if you were gonna shield anything it'd be the actual backseat and then the other major sources in a home would be like appliances you know microwave dryer washer microwave only while it's running like if you were right next to when it's running so basically keeping those appliances as far away as possible from the bedroom or anywhere where you're out for an extended period of time basically don't put your laptop on the washer which I know you do and work from that during the day okay yeah major appliances and then the phone would just basically also be a proximity to the body and be the bar signal the lower the bar signal the higher radio frequency output in order to be searching for a signal so when the plane is about to land and a hundred people on the plane all turn their cell phones on when you're maybe still like I don't know like let's say at 2,000 feet and you've still got one bar that's a pretty hazardous place to be because you all of a sudden have like a hundred devices pushing out a ton of radio frequency because they're all searching for a signal at the same time so that's that's where you pull on your tinfoil hat is right when the planes about to land that's crazy or your EMF blocking my girlfriend literally got me the tinfoil hat I wear one for international flights I wear a full cap and she's like when I travel with my sons I have EMF blocking my sons for long-haul flight yeah just for just for the radiation for one hole it's interesting actually got this that this is for you to wear today hey I love it make autism great again this is what I'm gonna put on every time I land does it block you mess I'm fucking blown away by the Tesla thing by sitting in the back the backseat I'm gonna guess lots of the batteries but for every problem there's gonna be a solution so someone is now going to make a child seat presumably which has yeah so so I have called four body shops and so far found none in the Tesla dealership for warranty reasons won't do it who will actually install the shielding material in the backseat so I have just like a giant piece of fabric from Brian and shielded healing this is like sitting in the back of the Tesla right now but I haven't actually been able to find anyone who's gonna pull the seat out and install it properly like between the backseat and the battery because it's so there's a great business model out there for someone out there somewhere we say hello EMF shielding for the backseat does it make a meaningful difference oh yeah when you put the shielding material the meter drops down it's just you it's ugly to just have a giant piece of children material just like props in the backseat like I don't need the upholstery or what if I'm fast and I was so funny I was watching a documentary congratulations on the new documentary by the way I was watching this last night and I was looking at by the way he was disappointed that they didn't actually show the penis injection scene I was reliably I only arrive at events me and Zac Efron at the back of the cinema just like I'm waiting for the penis like one of the things that I noticed was the most Ben Greenfield thing in the world is to design the perfect house to ensure there's no EMF everything's local area networked and copper wiring and all the rest of it living room fucking tons of boxes of new shit that you just had sent to his house tons and tons of cardboard boxes and I was like that's a man who gets lots of packages I have a soft spot in my heart for a man that receives a lot of packages it's the worst when you try I literally have an assistant who sits at home and opens packages and sends me photos to an Asana project when I'm traveling so that everything can be unboxed and put away when I get home because one of my greatest sources of stress when I travel is getting home to all of the boxes worst so I've outsourced I enjoyed enjoyed seeing the boxes but yeah lots of lots of lots of cool free things I'm on the air quality thing I think that is co2 is something that I think people are gonna pay a lot of attention to but that'll be further down the line before that it's gonna be humidity and mold like small travel mold detectors that you could put on your backpack air quality detectors yeah well the problem or like a canary that you could train for mold yeah for mold it's just okay yeah here one of the problems that you have and I only found this out from speaking to Mike from Jasper is that you can't have an air purifier or a equals is a scrubber scrubber but different I know your dad was huge into this stuff right was my dad was water water yeah um you can't have the sensor be in the scrubber because the turnover of air is too high so you always have to have two separate because it's basically pulling air through the center itself yeah so you can't have that you need to have a sensor that's over one side that's looking at co2 that's looking at mold particles and then you need to have this but that means that you now have two units one thing that's detecting yeah you need a detector in the scrubber and they're like like if you could have the perfect setup at home and you weren't renting it you could just put in your own HEPA filtration system you would have a filter you would have a scrubber right so the filter you see like the Merv rating which is just like the particular rating like that's the actual like filter that's catching stuff that you pull out and change you know every six months or whatever in your home then you have the scrubber which keeps the actual mold from building up in the ducts themselves and a lot of times that uses that's using like UV or ozone or something like that and then a recirculator that's pulling in fresh air from the outdoors so you're not just filtering stale and also scrubbing you're recirculating and you're filtering all three like that's the best so is that so it's three different units it's basically three different technologies being used for something like central HEPA filter what should happen and I think this is where the guys from Jasper Mike's gonna end up doing it is all of this can be fixed if you just put it into AC like if you just go after the AC unit you don't need to do any of the additional standalone unit thing the reason that Jasper exists at the moment is that there isn't enough cleaning going on through the AC and if you're in an apartment block or if you've got a house trying to retrofit that you're gonna have to bodge it together like some Ben Greenfield Tesla car like it's not it's it's too much to do so you're having to scrub inside of a room because the air that's coming in from the AC even with a dehumidifier at the best that you can get at the moment is tough I mean what did you do for your AC did you have to bodge it together or did you find something that was ready-made oh we went with the local company called laser and they do scrubber they do filter and they do recirculation that's needed to get rid of yeah yeah yeah like they're using a Merv filter that will basically catch anything that's like p.m.

2.5 which is I think it's p.m. 2.4 to p.m. 10 are the main sizes that you get concerned about but I still because of wildfire season and also in the kitchen where the rating for the height of the the hood over the stove for the actual filtration system above the stove when you're cooking is too high to actually catch everything that gets released when you're cooking so even if you have a filter in the kitchen you're getting a massive amount of p.m. 2.5 every time you cook so I have a standalone HEPA air filter in the kitchen and then a bunch in other rooms that I pull out when it's like wildfire season or there's a bunch of smoke there are eight Jasper filters back in our Airbnb right now here in Austin running every room so we have because to me it's worth it to filter then to as much as I travel get exposed in an Airbnb or hotel room and be dealing with mold for the next two years like it's way better just nip it but see what you said it is important is when you're exposed you're exposed over a period time it takes a long time to get rid of it yeah so you might as well yeah you know it's expensive you work a lot with mold obviously it's been a huge part of my life over the last couple of years how how brief of an exposure do you need in order to cause an effect do you like is one night six months of detox is there any equation that's been coming from I think well part of it so yes I do and treat mold and environmental toxins in our medical practice and I will tell you I think it comes down in part to genetics some people are affected some people are not obviously there's no it's not like okay so you have low testosterone for six months here's gonna be your subsequent effects but an exposure of even a week a week's better though you at least just delayed Chris's fears about his one-night stand with the moldy woman so have you gotten sick with mold you must have it I I've gotten pretty lucky I haven't yeah have you done your genomic testing to work out whether you've got the different polymorphisms that be your detox pathways for lime and for mold and stuff I have a little bit of impaired glutathione detoxification pathways there's some glutathione I've never had significant mold exposure but interest knock on wood if I mean I lived in me and another guy lived in the same house means a major and one of us him fine me same fucking house dude yeah and he was ripping vapes going to bed at 3 in the morning playing gigs here's me like getting up sunlight in the eye I was fucking grounding listening to Ben and Kubeman and you, and it wrecked me.

So it really is, if you just have rolled the genetic dice and then you kind of hit the equivalent of the inverse jackpot living in an environment, like, it's a real... Yeah, and you have a roommate with the frickin' Viking Nephilim genes. It's just completely untouched by it. But yeah, I think the mold thing is gonna be, already is sort of picking up speed, but Arianna Thacker from the Mold Co, she rules, she make a protocol, all of that stuff I think is gonna be massive, like teaching people about binders and sauna and exposure and TGF beta.

Yeah, Mold Co has kind of like systematized everything to where they have like the testing, the solutions, everything on one website, right? It's a one-stop shop, which is really cool. Yeah, really cool slash possibly the fox guarding the hen house, but I still think it's a good idea. How so? Well, if they're testing and then supplying the solutions based on the test results. So technically, it's a compromise. You're incentivized to get the test. But I've gone through the website and seen what they're doing, and I think that they're doing a good service.

I mean, you need to be a real scumbag to be falsifying people's tests, so you can then get therapy. I would hope not, I would think not, yeah. So yeah, what's cool is all of the problems that we think are sort of in the future, there's already solutions or proto-solutions that already exist. So for people that have got systemic issues, hormones, health, optimizing, like you guys and similar to you guys exist. For the light problems, we've got people thinking about LEDs. For mold, we've got the mold cove.

For blood testing and mass, we've got function. For air quality, we've got jet. There's already AquaTrue for reverse osmosis. There's already the beginnings of solutions. It's just a case of kind of telling people about it. That makes me feel more confident because I guess like 15 years ago, all of these problems still existed, but there wasn't even the nascent version of some company that could maybe fix it. Best resource I ever found, and I really wanted to interview the author on my podcast, and hopefully she doesn't hear this horrible interview because she was a little boring and didn't do a great job explaining, but the book was fantastic.

It was called Prescription for a Healthy Home, and it's like everything. It's carpets, appliance, it's roofing, it's painting, like I gave it to the people building my home. Like I bought it for the architect and the building team because I wanted them to read it. It was so thorough as far as everything that it went into for building materials from the ground up or outfitting like an existing condo or apartment or somewhere that you're not building from scratch. Excellent guide, and it's like, I think it was published two years ago, maybe.

So pretty relevant. Unreal. Final thing that I love, which I think will pick up speed, will be proper genetic testing. So Intellect's DNA is who you guys use that Lisa's put me through. It's a little bit expensive. You need a healthcare practitioner, provider, whatever, to get in between you. I know that Function are about to release their own version at some point later this year, which will democratize that. I'm sure you guys have all got your own versions of this too, but it's the only test you only ever need to do once.

That's true, yeah. It's so fucking- Until CRISPR gene editing really takes off. Well, you got the false statin thing when we were in Rowertown together. Yeah, yeah. How did that work? Did you- I gained muscle at a more rapid rate than I would have expected without changing protein, calorie intake, or my weight training protocol, around 10 pounds in three months. It might have worked. It's not permanent. You would need to repeat it, I think, every one to one and a half years. And unfortunately, at the time, I was under the impression it was reversible in case shit hit the fan and something went wrong.

It's not actually reversible. I thought it was reversible. I thought you just took a tablet. With antibiotics, yeah. No, that's the issue, is that it is not. And the company is now readily admitting that it's not. And doctors were supposed to reach out to their patients and tell them that, oops, it's not. So that's the only issue now, is it's just like, well, if you're gonna get your genes edited, it'd be nice to know that if something goes wrong, you could reverse it. Yeah, well, I mean, we did go to a small island off the coast of Honduras, which is specifically a network state that doesn't have any oversight of basically any nation so that you could get this experimental gene therapy.

And now you're like, pfft. Wow, they didn't tell me about the small print. The understanding that I was taught from that technology is it's not editing a gene, it's turning on a preexisting gene. You are correct. It's not a CRISPR gene editing. And then it'll turn it back off over time. It's basically like up-regulating or down-regulating a gene. So yeah, like, joking aside, the only reason that you'd have to do a genetic test twice in a lifetime is if you were actually using CRISPR gene editing.

Yeah, yeah. That'd be pretty sick. Guys, you all rule. I appreciate you. Where should people go to check out everything? We've told them so many interesting things. My company's ways2well.com, the number two. Yeah, yeah. Go to my website, drgabriellion.com, all of the channels, the podcast. These two are getting PhDs to come on. Let's do it. Let's go. And yeah, Strong Medical with Lifespan MD, if you wanna be my patient. I don't do rectal exams, though. Sweet. There's not a lot of Ben Greenfields out there. Such Google is good.

Thank you. I appreciate you all. You all rule. Thank you for keeping everyone alive. Goodbye, my beauties. Yes, that fucking was. That was fun. So much fun. You wanna impress them on a first date, but also play it cool. So what do you do? I'm Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple that navigated exactly that. Listen to the free audio book now.